From nobody Mon Jul 2 01:38:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F9ED130F04; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 01:38:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.019 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.019 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=alibaba-inc.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tSHHluZMK55T; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 01:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out0-145.mail.aliyun.com (out0-145.mail.aliyun.com [140.205.0.145]) (using 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From: "=?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?=" To: "spring" , "=?UTF-8?B?S2V0YW4gVGFsYXVsaWthciAoa2V0YW50KQ==?=" , "idr@ietf.org" , "lsr@ietf.org" , "spring@ietf.org" Reply-To: "=?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?=" Message-ID: <33379f46-ce93-4bec-a7b1-d42bbbabc3ab.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> X-Mailer: [Alimail-Mailagent revision 268][W4_5295521][v5ForWebDing][Safari] MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <741c5584debc4bc7821292de52f8d6c4@XCH-ALN-008.cisco.com>, In-Reply-To: x-aliyun-mail-creator: W4_5295521_v5ForWebDing_QvNTW96aWxsYS81LjAgKE1hY2ludG9zaDsgSW50ZWwgTWFjIE9TIFggMTBfMTJfNikgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA0LjUuNiAoS0hUTUwsIGxpa2UgR2Vja28pIFZlcnNpb24vMTEuMC4zIFNhZmFyaS82MDQuNS42La Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=ALIBOUNDARY_36405_529a6940_5b39e456_c7cca" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] =?utf-8?q?=5Bspring=5D_Signalling_ERLD_=28ISIS=2C_OSPF_and?= =?utf-8?q?_BGP-LS=29?= X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 08:38:11 -0000 ------=ALIBOUNDARY_36405_529a6940_5b39e456_c7cca Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SWYgSSB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIGl0IGNvcnJlY3RseSwgYWNjb3JkaW5nIHRvIHRoZSBFTEMgY29uY2Vw dCBvcmlnaW5hdGVkIGZyb20gUkZDNjc5MCAoc2VlIGJlbG93KSwgdGhlIEVMQyBpdHNlbGYgZG9l c24ndCBtZWFuIHRoZSBFTEMgb3JpZ2luYXRvciBzaG91bGQgYmUgY2FwYWJsZSBvZiB1c2luZyB0 aGUgRUwgZm9yIGxvYWQtYmFsYW5jaW5nLiBJdCBqdXN0IG1lYW5zIHRoZSBlZ3Jlc3Mgb2YgdGhl IHR1bm5lbCBhZHZlcnRpc2luZyB0aGF0IGNhcGFiaWxpdHkgaXMgY2FwYWJsZSBvZiBwb3BwaW5n IHRoZSBFTEkvRUkuCgo1LiAgU2lnbmFsaW5nIGZvciBFbnRyb3B5IExhYmVscwoKICAgQW4gZWdy ZXNzIExTUiBZIGNhbiBzaWduYWwgdG8gaW5ncmVzcyBMU1IocykgaXRzIGFiaWxpdHkgdG8gcHJv Y2VzcwogICBlbnRyb3B5IGxhYmVscyAoaGVuY2Vmb3J0aCBjYWxsZWQgIkVudHJvcHkgTGFiZWwg Q2FwYWJpbGl0eSIgb3IgRUxDKQogICBvbiBhIGdpdmVuIHR1bm5lbC4gIEluIHBhcnRpY3VsYXIs 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------=ALIBOUNDARY_36405_529a6940_5b39e456_c7cca-- From nobody Mon Jul 2 07:46:56 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietf.org Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67F0913115B; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 07:46:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: idr@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.81.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <153054279929.16252.14924384306296257530@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 07:46:39 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-wide-bgp-communities-05.txt X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 14:46:48 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Inter-Domain Routing WG of the IETF. Title : BGP Community Container Attribute Authors : Robert Raszuk Jeffrey Haas Andrew Lange Bruno Decraene Shane Amante Paul Jakma Filename : draft-ietf-idr-wide-bgp-communities-05.txt Pages : 25 Date : 2018-07-02 Abstract: Route tagging plays an important role in external BGP [RFC4271] relations, in communicating various routing policies between peers. It is also a very common best practice among operators to propagate various additional information about routes intra-domain. The most common tool used today to attach various information about routes is through the use of BGP communities [RFC1997]. This document defines a new encoding which will enhance and simplify what can be accomplished today with the use of BGP communities. The most important addition this specification makes over currently defined BGP communities is the ability to specify, carry as well as use for execution an operator's defined set of parameters. It also provides an extensible platform for any new community encoding needs in the future. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-wide-bgp-communities/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-wide-bgp-communities-05 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-idr-wide-bgp-communities-05 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-idr-wide-bgp-communities-05 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 2 07:56:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietf.org Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F017D1311BB; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 07:56:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: idr@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.81.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <153054338791.16048.11734347165401802643@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 07:56:27 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detection-mitigation-09.txt X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 14:56:33 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Inter-Domain Routing WG of the IETF. Title : Methods for Detection and Mitigation of BGP Route Leaks Authors : Kotikalapudi Sriram Alexander Azimov Filename : draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detection-mitigation-09.txt Pages : 14 Date : 2018-07-02 Abstract: Problem definition for route leaks and enumeration of types of route leaks are provided in RFC 7908. This document specifies BGP enhancements that significantly extend its route-leak detection and mitigation capabilities. The solution involves each participating AS setting a route-leak protection (RLP) field in BGP updates. The RLP fields are carried in a new optional transitive attribute, called BGP RLP Attribute. The RLP Attribute helps with detection and mitigation of route leaks at ASes downstream from the leaking AS (in the path of BGP update). This is an inter-AS (multi-hop) solution mechanism. This solution complements the intra-AS (local AS) route-leak avoidance solution that is described in ietf-idr-bgp-open-policy draft. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detection-mitigation/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detection-mitigation-09 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detection-mitigation-09 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detection-mitigation-09 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 2 08:39:12 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietf.org Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94388130E35; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 08:39:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: idr@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.81.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <153054595055.16146.6401392862165826913@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 08:39:10 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-l2vpn-08.txt X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 15:39:11 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Inter-Domain Routing WG of the IETF. Title : Dissemination of Flow Specification Rules for L2 VPN Authors : Weiguo Hao Qiandeng Liang James Uttaro Stephane Litkowski Shunwan Zhuang Filename : draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-l2vpn-08.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2018-07-02 Abstract: This document defines BGP Flow-Spec extension for Ethernet traffic filtering in L2 VPN network. SAFI=134 in [RFC5575] is redefined for dissemination traffic filtering information in an L2VPN environment. A new subset of component types and extended community also are defined. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-l2vpn/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-l2vpn-08 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-l2vpn-08 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-l2vpn-08 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 2 10:09:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C15130E54; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 10:09:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.947 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.947 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WWG9_rjKukyc; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 10:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (50-245-122-97-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.245.122.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6779E130FA6; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 10:09:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=174.124.223.101; From: "Susan Hares" To: Cc: , =?gb2312?B?J9Ds0KG7oijS5c/IKSc=?= , "'Ketan Talaulikar \(ketant\)'" , , "'John Scudder'" Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 13:08:47 -0400 Message-ID: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0138_01D41205.D08CC590" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: AdQSJcQmPylai0FFTx6TtuTV7fzVrQ== X-Antivirus: AVG (VPS 180702-2, 07/02/2018), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Not-Tested X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 17:09:05 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0138_01D41205.D08CC590 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings:=20 =20 This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =A8C July 16). =20 =20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/ =20 The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response = to this email. I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors = to respond by July 7th. =20 =20 The WG should consider the following:=20 1) Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers = within Data Centers?=20 2) Does this mechanism work for other deployments?=20 =20 3) If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? =20 Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc).=20 =20 4) Does this interact with any of the LSVR work?=20 =20 I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through = some of the WG LC for other drafts. We decided to wait until some of those discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call. =20 =20 Susan Hares=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0138_01D41205.D08CC590 Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Greetings: =

 

This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =A8C July 16).  =

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscover= y/

 

The authors of this draft should send their IPR = statements in response to this email.  I hope the authors will = ihelp their vacationing co-authors to respond by July = 7th. 

 

The WG = should consider the following:

1)      = Does BGP need to have an = autodiscovery mechanism for peers within Data Centers?

2)      = Does this mechanism work = for other deployments?

 

3)      = If so, should be passed = in BGP Hello message? 

Or should it be a part of another protocol = (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc).

 

4)      = Does this interact with = any of the LSVR work?

 

I want to = thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through some of the = WG LC for other drafts.  We decided to wait until some of those = discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption = call.

 

 

Susan Hares =

------=_NextPart_000_0138_01D41205.D08CC590-- From nobody Mon Jul 2 11:35:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietf.org Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F05A8130DFB; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 11:34:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: idr@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.81.3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <153055649894.16329.17695727650867289774@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 11:34:58 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy-04.txt X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 18:34:59 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Inter-Domain Routing WG of the IETF. Title : Advertising Segment Routing Policies in BGP Authors : Stefano Previdi Clarence Filsfils Dhanendra Jain Paul Mattes Eric Rosen Steven Lin Filename : draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy-04.txt Pages : 40 Date : 2018-07-02 Abstract: This document defines a new BGP SAFI with a new NLRI in order to advertise a candidate path of a Segment Routing Policy (SR Policy). An SR Policy is a set of candidate paths, each consisting of one or more segment lists. The headend of an SR Policy may learn multiple candidate paths for an SR Policy. Candidate paths may be learned via a number of different mechanisms, e.g., CLI, NetConf, PCEP, or BGP. This document specifies the way in which BGP may be used to distribute candidate paths. New sub-TLVs for the Tunnel Encapsulation Attribute are defined. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy-04 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 2 11:45:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 935ED130EC1 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 11:45:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nistgov.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iLL1eqXAYaBI for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 11:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from GCC01-DM2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-dm2gcc01on0716.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fd01::716]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE9E8130F46 for ; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nist.gov X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e7312af8-3571-43df-c0f1-08d5e04bea5e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 02 Jul 2018 18:45:00.0679 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 2ab5d82f-d8fa-4797-a93e-054655c61dec X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR09MB2776 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detection-mitigation-09.txt X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 18:45:06 -0000 The author teams from the following two drafts... =20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detection-mitigation-= 08=20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ymbk-idr-bgp-eotr-policy-02=20 have combined into one team, and we are happy to report that=20 we've a converged towards a merged solution proposal and have uploaded a ne= w merged draft: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detection-mitigation-= 09 =20 We plan to present an update on this in the IDR WG meeting in Montreal. Sriram ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------------------ A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Inter-Domain Routing WG of the IETF. Title : Methods for Detection and Mitigation of BGP Route= Leaks Authors : Kotikalapudi Sriram Alexander Azimov Filename : draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detection-mitigation-09.txt Pages : 14 Date : 2018-07-02 Abstract: Problem definition for route leaks and enumeration of types of route leaks are provided in RFC 7908. This document specifies BGP enhancements that significantly extend its route-leak detection and mitigation capabilities. The solution involves each participating AS setting a route-leak protection (RLP) field in BGP updates. The RLP fields are carried in a new optional transitive attribute, called BGP RLP Attribute. The RLP Attribute helps with detection and mitigation of route leaks at ASes downstream from the leaking AS (in the path of BGP update). This is an inter-AS (multi-hop) solution mechanism. This solution complements the intra-AS (local AS) route-leak avoidance solution that is described in ietf-idr-bgp-open-policy draft. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detection-mitiga= tion/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detection-mitigation-= 09 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detection-m= itigation-09 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detection-mit= igation-09 From nobody Mon Jul 2 12:07:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB9AB1312BF; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 12:07:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nist.gov X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 265ab4ec-8fd4-4123-3e54-08d5e04eff00 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 02 Jul 2018 19:07:03.1519 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 2ab5d82f-d8fa-4797-a93e-054655c61dec X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR09MB2775 Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] Fw: New Version Notification for draft-sriram-idr-route-leak-solution-discussion-00.txt X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 19:07:14 -0000 This informational draft ... https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sriram-idr-route-leak-solution-discussion= -00=20 is a companion to the newly merged route leaks solution draft ...=20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detection-mitigation-= 09=20 and provides design rationale/discussion. Your comments welcome. Sriram ________________________________________ From: internet-drafts@ietf.org Sent: Monday, July 2, 2018 11:32 AM To: Sriram, Kotikalapudi (Fed) Subject: New Version Notification for draft-sriram-idr-route-leak-solution-= discussion-00.txt A new version of I-D, draft-sriram-idr-route-leak-solution-discussion-00.tx= t has been successfully submitted by Kotikalapudi Sriram and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-sriram-idr-route-leak-solution-discussion Revision: 00 Title: Design Discussion of Route Leaks Solution Methods Document date: 2018-07-02 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 16 URL: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sriram-idr-route-leak-sol= ution-discussion-00=20 Abstract: This document captures the design rationale of the route leaks solution document [draft-ietf-idr-route-leak-detection-mitigation]. The designers needed to balance many competing factors, and this document provides insights into the design questions and their resolution. From nobody Mon Jul 2 15:32:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ABF0130E60; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 15:32:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.189 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.189 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mZdRr9zdggzi; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 15:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68175130E04; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 15:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id C2F27F4AA200B; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 23:31:58 +0100 (IST) Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.39) by lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 23:31:59 +0100 Received: from SJCEML521-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.90]) by SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.104]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Mon, 2 Jul 2018 15:31:52 -0700 From: Linda Dunbar To: Eric C Rosen , "idr@ietf.org" , "pmohapat@cisco.com" , "erosen@cisco.com" , "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? can draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 preserve trigger tunnel creation before VPN is established? Thread-Index: AdQSU8kj9+PlkyJ1SQqdduMnaeSayw== Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 22:31:51 +0000 Message-ID: <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B07A7E6@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.192.11.89] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_005_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B07A7E6sjceml521mbschi_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? can draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 preserve trigger tunnel creation before VPN is established? X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 22:32:07 -0000 --_005_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B07A7E6sjceml521mbschi_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B07A7E6sjceml521mbschi_" --_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B07A7E6sjceml521mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric, IDR group, It is indicated that RFC5512 is to be replaced by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-enc= aps. But draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 stated that it deprecates the Encapsulation SAFI. We find the Encapsulation SAFI is quite useful for CPE based EVPN. For exa= mple, a Controller (say RR) can send an update with Encapsulation SAFI to t= wo end points to trigger a tunnel establishment between them. What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? Can we preserve it in draft-iet= f-idr-tunnel-encaps? Thanks, Linda Dunbar From: Linda Dunbar Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 2:54 PM To: 'Eric C Rosen' ; idr@ietf.org; pmohapat@cisco.com; = erosen@cisco.com; 'draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org' Subject: Can draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 trigger tunnel creation before= VPN is established? Eric, Thank you very much for the reply. Can draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 trigger tunnel creation before VPN is e= stablished? For example, having RR sending down the Encap extended community to both en= d points of a tunnel? Instead of tunnel's one end point to send to others? Thank you very much. Linda Dunbar From: Eric C Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 2:28 PM To: Linda Dunbar >;= idr@ietf.org; pmohapat@cisco.com; erosen@cisco.com Subject: Re: [Idr] Questions to RFC5512: Encapsulation sub-TLV and Opaque e= xtended community to indicate the Encapsulation protocol? I think it would be better if you looked at draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps in= stead of RFC 5512. The draft has passed WG LC, and if it ever gets sent to= the IESG, it will obsolete RFC 5512. On 6/26/2018 1:56 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote: BGP experts: If the RFC5512 has "distinguished SAFI value" and "the Encapsulation SAFI".= Do those two terms have the same meaning? The Section 3 of RFC5512 has SAFI value of 7 to represent Encapsulation SAF= I. Does it mean that the "distinguished SAFI value" is just "7" for speaker to= advertise its supported Tunnel information? Yes, per RFC 5512 the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute can only be carried on= UPDATEs of SAFI 7. Draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps deprecates this SAFI, and explicitly allows th= e Tunnel Encapsulation attribute to be carried on UPDATEs whose AFI/SAFI is= 1/1, 1/4, 2/4, 1/128, 2/128, and 25/70. Use of the attribute on other AFI= /SAFIs is outside the scope of the draft. The Section 4 goes on defining the Tunnel Encapsulation Type (such as L2TPv= 3 with Type =3D1; etc), and a list of sub-TLVs, one of the SubTLV is Protoc= ol Type (section 4.2) which can be used to represent the Encapsulation Prot= ocol (i.e. protocol type of data frames carried by the tunnel) Just to be clear, the Protocol Type sub-TLV identifies the protocol type of= the payload. If a Protocol Type sub-TLV identifying "IPv4" appears inside= a Tunnel Type of "GRE", the meaning is that IPv4 packets may be carried in= side a GRE tunnel. Why need the Opaque extended community to indicate the Encapsulation protoc= ol? [cid:image001.png@01D4122A.8D7BE360] [cid:image002.png@01D4122A.8D7BE360] Well, the argument was "I just want to indicate that packets directed to a = given prefix need to be encapsulated in GRE. I don't want to have to use a= new SAFI to say that, all it takes is putting a community on the UPDATE th= at mentions that prefix in its NLRI". That's fine as long as you don't wan= t to convey any additional information about how to construct the encapsula= tion. In practice, people have invented additional extended communities to= carry information that should have been carried in the Tunnel Encapsulatio= n attribute, in order to avoid the use of SAFI 7. This extended community is not really necessary when draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-= encaps is used, but it is preserved for backwards compatibility purposes; s= ee section 4.5 of that draft. --_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B07A7E6sjceml521mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Eric, IDR group, =

 

It is indicated that RFC5512 is to be replaced by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps. But draf= t-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 stated that it deprecates the

Encapsulation SAFI.

 

We find the Encapsulat= ion SAFI is quite useful for CPE based EVPN.  For example, a Controlle= r (say RR) can send an update with Encapsulation SAFI to two end points to = trigger a tunnel establishment between them.

What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? Can we preserve it in dra= ft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps?

 

Thanks, Linda Dunbar

 

From:= Linda Dunbar
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 2:54 PM
To: 'Eric C Rosen' <erosen@juniper.net>; idr@ietf.org; pmohapa= t@cisco.com; erosen@cisco.com; 'draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org' <= draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org>
Subject: Can draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 trigger tunnel creation= before VPN is established?

 

Eric,

 

Thank you very much fo= r the reply.

Can draft-ietf-idr-tun= nel-encaps-09 trigger tunnel creation before VPN is established?=

For example, having RR= sending down the Encap extended community to both end points of a tunnel? = Instead of tunnel’s one end point to send to others?

 

Thank you very much. <= o:p>

 

Linda Dunbar

 

 

From:= Eric C Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 2:28 PM
To: Linda Dunbar <lind= a.dunbar@huawei.com>; idr@ietf.org; pmohapat@cisco.com; erosen@cisco.co= m
Subject: Re: [Idr] Questions to RFC5512: Encapsulation sub-TLV and O= paque extended community to indicate the Encapsulation protocol?=

 

I think it would be b= etter if you looked at draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps instead of RFC 5512.&nb= sp; The draft has passed WG LC, and if it ever gets sent to the IESG, it wi= ll obsolete RFC 5512.

On 6/26/2018 1:56 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote:=

BGP experts:

 

If the RFC5512 has “distinguished SAFI value&#= 8221; and “the Encapsulation SAFI”. Do those two terms have the= same meaning?

The Section 3 of RFC5512 has SAFI value of 7 to repr= esent Encapsulation SAFI.

 

Does it mean that the “distinguished SAFI valu= e” is just “7” for speaker to advertise its supported Tun= nel information?


Yes, per RFC 5512 the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute can only be carried on= UPDATEs of SAFI 7.

Draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps deprecates this SAFI, and explicitly allows th= e Tunnel Encapsulation attribute to be carried on UPDATEs whose AFI/SAFI is= 1/1, 1/4, 2/4, 1/128, 2/128, and 25/70.  Use of the attribute on othe= r AFI/SAFIs is outside the scope of the draft.

 

 

The Section 4 goes on defining the Tunnel Encapsulat= ion Type (such as L2TPv3 with Type =3D1; etc), and a list of sub-TLVs, one = of the SubTLV is Protocol Type (section 4.2) which can be used to represent= the Encapsulation Protocol (i.e. protocol type of data frames carried by the tunnel)


Just to be clear, the Protocol Type sub-TLV identifies the protocol type of= the payload.  If a Protocol Type sub-TLV identifying "IPv4"= appears inside a Tunnel Type of "GRE", the meaning is that IPv4 = packets may be carried inside a GRE tunnel.

 

Why need the Opaque extended community to indicate t= he Encapsulation protocol?

 

 

 

 


Well, the argument was "I just want to indicate that packets directed = to a given prefix need to be encapsulated in GRE.  I don't want to hav= e to use a new SAFI to say that, all it takes is putting a community on the= UPDATE that mentions that prefix in its NLRI".  That's fine as long as you don't want to convey any additional information= about how to construct the encapsulation.  In practice, people have i= nvented additional extended communities to carry information that should ha= ve been carried in the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute, in order to avoid the use of SAFI 7.

This extended community is not really necessary when draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-= encaps is used, but it is preserved for backwards compatibility purposes; s= ee section 4.5 of that draft.


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idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 16:00:10 -0000 Dear John Scudder, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. idr Session 1 (1:00 requested) Thursday, 19 July 2018, Afternoon Session III 1810-1910 Room Name: Viger size: 200 --------------------------------------------- idr Session 2 (1:30 requested) Friday, 20 July 2018, Afternoon Session I 1150-1320 Room Name: Place du Canada size: 300 --------------------------------------------- iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/sessions/idr.ics Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Inter-Domain Routing Area Name: Routing Area Session Requester: John Scudder Number of Sessions: 2 Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours, 1 Hour Number of Attendees: 120 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: sidrops lsr bfd netconf netmod grow i2nsf i2rs lsvr Second Priority: bess babel People who must be present: Susan Hares John Scudder Alvaro Retana Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue Jul 3 10:21:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77B73130E07; 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X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 17:21:18 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0B7EA8CFB7D49E9DC9731E17 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/2/2018 6:31 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote: > > Eric, IDR group, > > It is indicated that RFC5512 is to be replaced by > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps. But draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 > stated that it deprecates the > > Encapsulation SAFI. > > We find the Encapsulation SAFI is quite useful for CPE based EVPN. >  For example, a Controller (say RR) can send an update with > Encapsulation SAFI to two end points to trigger a tunnel establishment > between them. > > What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? Can we preserve it in > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps? > > Thanks, Linda Dunbar > SAFI 7 was deprecated because no one seemed interested in using it, it creates additional operational issues, there is no real need for it, and it was discouraging folks from actually using the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute.  This is discussed briefly in section 1.2 of the draft. You can get a similar effect by using the technique described in section 7 of the draft. If PE1 is the egress point of a tunnel, have PE1 originate an UPDATE whose NLRI is PE1's loopback address.  Put the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute (with PE1 as remote endpoint) on this UPDATE.  (The next hop field of this UPDATE doesn't really matter, as long as it is resolvable.)  When PE1 originates VPN routes, it sets the next hop to be its loopback address.  Per section 7, this will result in packets being sent to PE1 though the specified tunnel. --------------0B7EA8CFB7D49E9DC9731E17 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/2/2018 6:31 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote:

Eric, IDR group,

 

It is indicated that RFC5512 is to be replaced by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps. But draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 stated that it deprecates the

Encapsulation SAFI.

 

We find the Encapsulation SAFI is quite useful for CPE based EVPN.  For example, a Controller (say RR) can send an update with Encapsulation SAFI to two end points to trigger a tunnel establishment between them.

What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? Can we preserve it in draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps?

 

Thanks, Linda Dunbar

 


SAFI 7 was deprecated because no one seemed interested in using it, it creates additional operational issues, there is no real need for it, and it was discouraging folks from actually using the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute.  This is discussed briefly in section 1.2 of the draft.

You can get a similar effect by using the technique described in section 7 of the draft.

If PE1 is the egress point of a tunnel, have PE1 originate an UPDATE whose NLRI is PE1's loopback address.  Put the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute (with PE1 as remote endpoint) on this UPDATE.  (The next hop field of this UPDATE doesn't really matter, as long as it is resolvable.)  When PE1 originates VPN routes, it sets the next hop to be its loopback address.  Per section 7, this will result in packets being sent to PE1 though the specified tunnel.

 
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Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3613468698_1443415877 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sue, =20 I=E2=80=99m not aware of any IPR. =20 1) Yes 2) if BGP is not used for reachability distribution, I=E2=80=99d question use of = BGP as the neighbor autodiscovery technology, however for all practical reas= ons, there=E2=80=99s significant number of DC=E2=80=99s todays that run BGP (Use of BGP = for Routing in Large-Scale Data Centers, RFC 7938) seems to be a rather popu= lar way to deploy undelay routing. 3) Yes, it could and should if BGP is used, using Hello message to convey t= he information needed is a technically sound approach, while using other pro= tocols to do the same is definitely possible, additional complexity should n= ot be underestimated=20 4) it could be leveraged by the LSVR =20 Cheers, Jeff =20 From: Susan Hares Date: Monday, July 2, 2018 at 10:09 To: Cc: , "'=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E' (=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88)" = , "'Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)'" , Alvaro Retana , 'John Scudder' Subject: WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Resent-From: Resent-To: , , Jeff Tants= ura , , Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 10:09:04 -0700 (PDT) =20 Greetings:=20 =20 This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscove= ry (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16). =20 =20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/ =20 The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response to t= his email. I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors to re= spond by July 7th. =20 =20 The WG should consider the following:=20 Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within Data Cent= ers?=20 Does this mechanism work for other deployments?=20 =20 If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? =20 Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc).=20 =20 Does this interact with any of the LSVR work?=20 =20 I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through some= of the WG LC for other drafts. We decided to wait until some of those disc= ussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call. =20 =20 Susan Hares=20 --B_3613468698_1443415877 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Sue,

&nbs= p;

I=E2=80=99m not aware of any IPR.

 

1) Yes

2) if BGP is not used for reachability distribution, I=E2=80= =99d question use of BGP as the neighbor autodiscovery technology, however for= all practical reasons, there=E2=80=99s significant number of DC=E2=80=99s todays that r= un BGP (Use of BGP for Routing in Large-Scale Data Centers, RFC 7938) seems = to be a rather popular way to deploy undelay routing.

3) Yes, it could and should if BGP is used, using Hello message t= o convey the information needed is a technically sound approach, while using= other protocols to do the same is definitely possible, additional complexit= y should not be underestimated

4) it could= be leveraged by the LSVR

 =

Cheers,

Jeff

 

= From: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Date: <= /b>Monday, July 2, 2018 at 10:09
To: <idr@ietf.org>
Cc= : <draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org>, "'=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E' (=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88)" <xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com>, "'Ke= tan Talaulikar (ketant)'" <ketant@cisco.com>, Alvaro Retana <a= retana.ietf@gmail.com>, 'John Scudder' <jgs@juniper.net>
Subj= ect: WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery
Rese= nt-From: <alias-bounces@ietf.org>
Resent-To: <xiaohu.= xxh@alibaba-inc.com>, <bikunyang@huawei.com>, Jeff Tantsura <jef= ftant.ietf@gmail.com>, <nikos@linkedin.com>, <ketant@cisco.com&g= t;
Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 10:09:04 -0700 (PDT)

 

Greetings:

 

This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neig= hbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16). 

 

https://datatracker.ietf.or= g/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/

 

The authors of this draft should= send their IPR statements in response to this email.  I hope the autho= rs will ihelp their vacationing co-authors to respond by July 7th= . 

 

The WG should consider the following:

  1. Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for= peers within Data Centers?
  2. Does this mechanism work for othe= r deployments?

 

  1. If so, should be passed in B= GP Hello message? 

Or sh= ould it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc).

=

 

  1. Does this interact with any of the LSVR work?

 

I want to thank the a= uthors for their patience while we sorted through some of the WG LC for othe= r drafts.  We decided to wait until some of those discussion were clear= ed up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call.

 

 

Susan Hares

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04 Jul 2018 05:34:35 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-007.cisco.com (xch-aln-007.cisco.com [173.36.7.17]) by alln-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w645YY4K010820 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 4 Jul 2018 05:34:34 GMT Received: from xch-aln-008.cisco.com (173.36.7.18) by XCH-ALN-007.cisco.com (173.36.7.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 00:34:34 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-008.cisco.com ([173.36.7.18]) by XCH-ALN-008.cisco.com ([173.36.7.18]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 00:34:34 -0500 From: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" To: Susan Hares , "idr@ietf.org" CC: "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org" , =?gb2312?B?J9Ds0KG7oijS5c/IKSc=?= , "aretana.ietf@gmail.com" , "'John Scudder'" Thread-Topic: WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Thread-Index: AdQSJcQmPylai0FFTx6TtuTV7fzVrQBMr82A Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 05:34:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.82.219] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_d6089640c7494b61a706833989dd9250XCHALN008ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 05:34:39 -0000 --_000_d6089640c7494b61a706833989dd9250XCHALN008ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGVsbG8sDQoNCkkgYW0gbm90IGF3YXJlIG9mIGFueSBJUFIgcmVsYXRlZCB0byB0aGlzIGRyYWZ0 Lg0KDQpUaGFua3MsDQpLZXRhbg0KDQpGcm9tOiBTdXNhbiBIYXJlcyA8c2hhcmVzQG5kemguY29t Pg0KU2VudDogMDIgSnVseSAyMDE4IDIyOjM5DQpUbzogaWRyQGlldGYub3JnDQpDYzogZHJhZnQt eHUtaWRyLW5laWdoYm9yLWF1dG9kaXNjb3ZlcnlAaWV0Zi5vcmc7ICfQ7NChu6Io0uXPyCknIDx4 aWFvaHUueHhoQGFsaWJhYmEtaW5jLmNvbT47IEtldGFuIFRhbGF1bGlrYXIgKGtldGFudCkgPGtl dGFudEBjaXNjby5jb20+OyBhcmV0YW5hLmlldGZAZ21haWwuY29tOyAnSm9obiBTY3VkZGVyJyA8 amdzQGp1bmlwZXIubmV0Pg0KU3ViamVjdDogV0cgYWRvcHRpb24gY2FsbCBmb3IgZHJhZnQteHUt aWRyLW5laWdoYm9yLWF1dG9kaXNjb3ZlcnkNCg0KR3JlZXRpbmdzOg0KDQpUaGlzIGJlZ2lucyBh IDIgd2VlayBXRyBhZG9wdGlvbiBjYWxsIGZvciBkcmFmdC14dS1pZHItbmVpZ2hib3ItYXV0b2Rp c2NvdmVyeSAoSnVseSAyIKhDIEp1bHkgMTYpLg0KDQpodHRwczovL2RhdGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYu b3JnL2RvYy9kcmFmdC14dS1pZHItbmVpZ2hib3ItYXV0b2Rpc2NvdmVyeS8NCg0KVGhlIGF1dGhv cnMgb2YgdGhpcyBkcmFmdCBzaG91bGQgc2VuZCB0aGVpciBJUFIgc3RhdGVtZW50cyBpbiByZXNw b25zZSB0byB0aGlzIGVtYWlsLiAgSSBob3BlIHRoZSBhdXRob3JzIHdpbGwgaWhlbHAgdGhlaXIg dmFjYXRpb25pbmcgY28tYXV0aG9ycyB0byByZXNwb25kIGJ5IEp1bHkgN3RoLg0KDQpUaGUgV0cg c2hvdWxkIGNvbnNpZGVyIHRoZSBmb2xsb3dpbmc6DQoNCjEpICAgICBEb2VzIEJHUCBuZWVkIHRv IGhhdmUgYW4gYXV0b2Rpc2NvdmVyeSBtZWNoYW5pc20gZm9yIHBlZXJzIHdpdGhpbiBEYXRhIENl bnRlcnM/DQoNCjIpICAgICBEb2VzIHRoaXMgbWVjaGFuaXNtIHdvcmsgZm9yIG90aGVyIGRlcGxv eW1lbnRzPw0KDQoNCg0KMykgICAgIElmIHNvLCBzaG91bGQgYmUgcGFzc2VkIGluIEJHUCBIZWxs byBtZXNzYWdlPw0KDQpPciBzaG91bGQgaXQgYmUgYSBwYXJ0IG9mIGFub3RoZXIgcHJvdG9jb2wg KGUuZy4gTExEUCwgQkZELCBldGMpLg0KDQoNCjQpICAgICBEb2VzIHRoaXMgaW50ZXJhY3Qgd2l0 aCBhbnkgb2YgdGhlIExTVlIgd29yaz8NCg0KSSB3YW50IHRvIHRoYW5rIHRoZSBhdXRob3JzIGZv ciB0aGVpciBwYXRpZW5jZSB3aGlsZSB3ZSBzb3J0ZWQgdGhyb3VnaCBzb21lIG9mIHRoZSBXRyBM QyBmb3Igb3RoZXIgZHJhZnRzLiAgV2UgZGVjaWRlZCB0byB3YWl0IHVudGlsIHNvbWUgb2YgdGhv c2UgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiB3ZXJlIGNsZWFyZWQgdXAgcHJpb3IgdG8gc3RhcnRpbmcgYSBuZXcgV0cg QWRvcHRpb24gY2FsbC4NCg0KDQpTdXNhbiBIYXJlcw0K --_000_d6089640c7494b61a706833989dd9250XCHALN008ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello,

 

I am not aware of any IPR related to this draft.

 

Thanks,

Ketan

 

From: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> Sent: 02 July 2018 22:39
To: idr@ietf.org
Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org; '=D0=EC=D0=A1=BB=A2(=D2=E5=CF=C8)' <xiaohu.xxh@alib= aba-inc.com>; Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>; aretan= a.ietf@gmail.com; 'John Scudder' <jgs@juniper.net>
Subject: WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

 

Greetings:

 

This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-i= dr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =A8C July 16). 

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr= -neighbor-autodiscovery/

 

The authors of this draft should send their IPR stat= ements in response to this email.  I hope the authors will ihelp their= vacationing co-authors to respond by July 7th. 

 

The WG should consider the following:

1)     Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism fo= r peers within Data Centers?

2)     Does this mechanism work for other deployments?

 

3)     If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? =

Or should it be a part of another protocol (e= .g. LLDP, BFD, etc).

 

4)     Does this interact with any of the LSVR work? =

 

I want to thank the authors for their patience while= we sorted through some of the WG LC for other drafts.  We decided to = wait until some of those discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new= WG Adoption call.

 

 

Susan Hares

--_000_d6089640c7494b61a706833989dd9250XCHALN008ciscocom_-- From nobody Wed Jul 4 01:38:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01395130E2E for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 01:38:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ykCLkr9yv-sH for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 01:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x232.google.com (mail-pf0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5128130DC1 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 01:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x232.google.com with SMTP id y8-v6so2327445pfm.10 for ; Wed, 04 Jul 2018 01:38:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=OLkMsgIuYO7SCA72AqUTYSf387vp84wuqzFGNFUqCtI=; b=pd61dvJegaolMfRzPCNQxc5vwqZIFIR4ScfgyjChA+u1lVo5LtlZe1uRrpyrErZcxD kiw6YkHwsSpWhoLt7FllRocL8Iz3QV0noc4hVgVtM2E5D1O0ZIFQ3cTfALUDwyWGlNnT 0omnlyoj/IxbxfN5XTPU0b6FkBiryrt/GR4jVLdtm91xXGYppcYCv/VAYlEdfW/lgl9q hDw296VDJ+R2LXOqIBFO+XU5Npij70quqrw0ozZr12KAYqOEMbjSHYaoLazNCq7YN4pV Yc8/OG/avhVXiV2IiutSqaBP4cor/ipvK0qYBJiHPIjPkdBoRxO0MkDQjRAtfOlhPA1R 49hw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject :to; bh=OLkMsgIuYO7SCA72AqUTYSf387vp84wuqzFGNFUqCtI=; b=W8TrCIQniO5172hkViSSwNFdvZoVS/5aRzD47y7/cDIGetTeFPcqKDbtMeuRWcMIfg amZ2++j32tLsrkXWIzoj0ZlgYAJXzzqjTzGGg+c36fQbc1oLHFOuQOYnx2/p54ZpOvBr mH4y5SFv3AIyKrqZ6NXaVBZ9Lp1DBD2OLRN4R+IrSzJvoIfPZ+XRvdzvE89ayglOIjdB F5y3n8JN02V9bcVfyW0YyhGtmpkVJVAJ+3AhiScMJiuPZsxlnxMNRdVSyz3uNKvz8PAJ 6B2/KIlotTtwNNgynvvuoh+4b0LQ4eCbHyHVZCduoniA+7IWp73Bykmzn3NHOOo7YoUu sbIA== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E3Xqg1teargEZolfp+GHKgcUXKwnYfkAc9r0rx62QqK2fAuWCzH cDsYa6iXoX1PvxPdgdtdRfbofPy43iYfSeoIHBS/QZzf X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpdzZUY3PRpxcrCl5uhFsGN0QGJeEVE0prEJnNdgy7bx1m3WMAAL8rmNC0suDrgCB4vHyWTt3SzGEfO4wj/eKI8= X-Received: by 2002:a63:3444:: with SMTP id b65-v6mr1051470pga.396.1530693492706; Wed, 04 Jul 2018 01:38:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a17:90a:37e7:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 01:38:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Raszuk Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 10:38:12 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ouIaquGpCObdI5G-VZS56hUFAXA Message-ID: To: idr wg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e4936305702859c9" Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery-08 X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 08:38:17 -0000 --000000000000e4936305702859c9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Few questions and comments on draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery: 1. I recommend you rename HOLDTIME to H-TIME or R-TIME (Retention Time) in order to avoid confusion with BGP OPEN HOLDTIME. 2. While most of the text is consistent and talks about single peering address there is moment when plural form is used: "that cover the peering address(es)". Can someone elaborate more on intention here to send multiple peering addresses ? Also if sending multiple peering addressed in BGP Hello is being considered where such addresses will be actually sent as Peering Address TLV clearly talks about single address 3. Related to #2 if I would like to send both IPv4 and IPv6 peering addresses how those will be encoded ? Is there an assumption that Peering Address TLV will be present multiple times in such cases ? 4. Are proposed Hello messages supposed to be send over all interfaces or it will be customized on a per outbound interface or group of interfaces basis ? 5. Having Peering Address TLV & Local Prefixes TLV (for cases of loopback peering) I don't quite see a need for Link Attribute TLV at all. 6. Likewise Neighbor TLV seems quite unnecessary to me. To whom it will be sent ? To the peer we just established the peering with :) ? To other peers - why ? 7. One of the fundamental element of all BGP peerings is ability to detect peering liveness without tuning down BGP holdtime timer. Yet this proposal does not mention nor signal a bit about say BFD to be used mutually by both sides on the discovered links. 8. The draft is also pretty silent on how often the BGP HELLOs will be sent. For example is there an exponential timer allowing to slow down when the other side is not there yet ? 9. The text I read in the last paragraph is super scary: "A BGP peer maintains a hold timer with each Hello adjacency that it restarts when it receives a Hello that matches the adjacency. If the timer expires without receipt of a matching Hello from the peer, BGP concludes that the peer no longer wishes to keep BGP session for that link or that the peer has failed. The BGP peer then deletes the Hello adjacency. The route towards the BGP neighbor's loopback address that had been dynamically created due to that BGP Hello adjacency SHOULD be deleted accordingly. When the last Hello adjacency for an BGP session is deleted, the BGP peer terminates the BGP session and closing the transport connection." Your recommendation for two octet BGP Hello Holdtime expressed in seconds is 15 sec. Are you invalidating use and state machine associated with BGP Keepalive MSG above? I recommend this text is removed as it adds a lot of new mechanism to BGP state machine. 10. Do you plane to actually update BGP state machine ? 11. At present your auto-discovery does not mention anything about use of BGP MD5 or TCP-A0. Is there an assumption that peers which are discovering themselves will have those configured ? Is there also an assumption that I should always trust information received with BGP Hello messages ? Shouldn't we perhaps aim at private/public key authentication model instead ? 12. Draft says: "BGP hello messages are only exchanged between physically connected peers that are trustworthy." How is that trust determined ? Is there an implicit assumption that BGP Hello is something you need to enable on a per physical interface basis where you know apriori the other side of the fiber ? Doesn't it reduce the full automation one should expect out of this proposal ? Also when I peer with someone via L2 switch - still assume on a p2p basis - does this setup prevents me from use of BGP Hello Messages ? Thx, Robert. PS. I would like to first understand the authors perspective on the above observations before responding to Sue's WG adoption call. --000000000000e4936305702859c9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Few questi= ons and comments on=C2=A0draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery:

1. I recommend you rename HOLDTIME = to H-TIME or R-TIME (Retention Time) in order to avoid confusion with BGP O= PEN HOLDTIME.=C2=A0

2.= While most of the text is consistent and talks about single peering addres= s there is moment when plural form is used:=C2=A0 "that cover the peer= ing address(es)". Can someone elaborate more on intention here to send= multiple peering addresses ? Also if sending multiple peering addressed in= BGP Hello is being considered where such addresses will be actually sent a= s Peering Address TLV clearly talks about single address

3. Related to #2 if I would like to = send both IPv4 and IPv6 peering addresses how those will be encoded ? Is th= ere an assumption that Peering Address TLV will be present multiple times i= n such cases ?=C2=A0

4= . Are proposed Hello messages supposed to be send over all interfaces or it= will be customized on a per outbound interface or group of interfaces basi= s ?=C2=A0

5. Having Pe= ering Address TLV & Local Prefixes TLV (for cases of loopback peering) = I don't quite see a need for Link Attribute TLV at all.=C2=A0

6. Likewise Neighbor TLV seems = quite unnecessary to me. To whom it will be sent ? To the peer we just esta= blished the peering with :) ? To other peers - why ?=C2=A0

7. One of the fundamental element of = all BGP peerings is ability to detect peering liveness without tuning down = BGP holdtime timer. Yet this proposal does not mention nor signal a bit abo= ut say BFD to be used mutually by both sides on the discovered links.=C2=A0=

8. The draft is also = pretty silent on how often the BGP HELLOs=C2=A0 will be sent. For example i= s there an exponential timer allowing to slow down when the other side is n= ot there yet ?=C2=A0

9= . The text I read in the last paragraph is super scary:

=C2=A0 =C2= =A0"A BGP peer
=C2=A0 =C2=A0maintain= s a hold timer with each Hello adjacency that it restarts
=C2=A0 =C2=A0when it receives a Hello that matches the a= djacency.=C2=A0 If the timer
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0expires without receipt of a matching Hello from the peer, BGP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0concludes that the peer no longer wis= hes to keep BGP session for that
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0link or that the peer has failed. The BGP peer then deletes the
=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Hello adjacency.=C2=A0 The route = towards the BGP neighbor's loopback
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0address that had been dynamically created due to that BGP Hell= o
=C2=A0 =C2=A0adjacency SHOULD be delete= d accordingly.=C2=A0 When the last Hello
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0adjacency for an BGP session is deleted, the BGP peer terminat= es the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0BGP session and closi= ng the transport connection."

Your recommendation for two octet BGP Hell= o Holdtime expressed in seconds is 15 sec. Are you invalidating use and sta= te machine associated with BGP Keepalive MSG above? I recommend this text i= s removed as it adds a lot of new mechanism to BGP state machine.=C2=A0

10. D= o you plane to actually update BGP state machine ?=C2=A0

11. At present your = auto-discovery does not mention anything about use of BGP MD5 or TCP-A0. Is= there an assumption that peers which are discovering themselves will have = those configured ? Is there also an assumption that I should always trust i= nformation received with BGP Hello messages ? Shouldn't we perhaps aim = at private/public key authentication model instead ?=C2=A0

12. Draft says:= =C2=A0

"BGP hello messages are only exchanged between physically connect= ed peers that are trustworthy."=C2=A0

How is that trust determined ? Is = there an implicit assumption that BGP Hello is something you need to enable= on a per physical interface basis where you know apriori the other side of= the fiber ? Doesn't it reduce the full automation one should expect ou= t of this proposal ? Also when I peer with someone via L2 switch - still as= sume on a p2p basis - does this setup prevents me from use of BGP Hello Mes= sages ?

Thx,
Robert.

PS. I would like to first un= derstand the authors perspective on the above observations before respondin= g to Sue's WG adoption call.=C2=A0


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port 10024) with ESMTP id RfgrYyMoCaBw; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 05:17:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7F54130E06; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 05:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml709-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 4E7AAE73ADAD7; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 13:17:30 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML411-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.70) by lhreml709-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 13:17:31 +0100 Received: from NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::a54a:89d2:c471:ff]) by nkgeml411-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.70]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 20:17:28 +0800 From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" To: "idr@ietf.org" CC: "idr-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Draft IDR agenda posted Thread-Index: AdQTkLVsaDmXkR2PQgWLVbxmyVTs+g== Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 12:17:27 +0000 Message-ID: <76CD132C3ADEF848BD84D028D243C927A6EBAC1D@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.151.75] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_76CD132C3ADEF848BD84D028D243C927A6EBAC1DNKGEML515MBXchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] Draft IDR agenda posted X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 12:17:36 -0000 --_000_76CD132C3ADEF848BD84D028D243C927A6EBAC1DNKGEML515MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, The draft agenda of IDR session is posted: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/agenda-102-idr-00 Please let us know if you have any problem with it. Presenters, Please prepare to send your slides to me and CC the chairs. The deadline fo= r slides is 24 hours prior to our first session (Thursday) , though earlier= is better. And please take a look at the checklist for presenting at IDR: https://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/idr/trac/wiki/Checklist%20for%20presenting%2= 0at%20an%20IDR%20meeting Best regards, Jie --_000_76CD132C3ADEF848BD84D028D243C927A6EBAC1DNKGEML515MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear all,

 

The draft agenda of IDR session= is posted:

 

https://datatracker.ietf.= org/meeting/102/materials/agenda-102-idr-00

 

Please let us know if you ha= ve any problem with it.

 

Presenters, <= /p>

 

Please prepare to send your sli= des to me and CC the chairs. The deadline for slides is 24 hours prior to o= ur first session (Thursday) , though earlier is better.

 

And please take a look at the c= hecklist for presenting at IDR:

https://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/idr/trac/wiki/Checklist%20for%20presen= ting%20at%20an%20IDR%20meeting

 

Best regards,=

Jie

 

--_000_76CD132C3ADEF848BD84D028D243C927A6EBAC1DNKGEML515MBXchi_-- From nobody Wed Jul 4 07:34:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 167AD130DED for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 07:34:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.398 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.398 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MwfRwvVfsXkF for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 07:34:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x22d.google.com (mail-pf0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F274130FE9 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 07:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id s21-v6so2751600pfm.6 for ; Wed, 04 Jul 2018 07:34:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=wGh8X3zpLo/ir+VM/xm4xaE4lWdY3plw78FzwKr1liI=; b=A3plnee0w5I/45UkkynRary92kZ5Y3c9ynV+B96RbRFxzfVrIMRfnosS+WJ/RCLeDK 6LdHhlXyW6fDhfaOyltyMFU33e3zbx7Z4vpwJM9/mHpTuDKfbmy1gWlh/vSrfpBz8KHA DO89Chng4nObczWWCl+JbFfzEbDv2WZWS7V7ACPhGCo866I6A5Bo5RWQV48CX7Qgx/fW N3Nlg/NfVWA0SJ/2Szutc2CYEpy1c5JkD8h8hVo7BO6fQVJMLgwNQMyPRP1H68+Bn5CU GjKVXFqbgpcjunpJ2pwq64zhJFLULsn2vScpDqkXotayENvnImzF0GM07+oBmQhB7OxS Qr1w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wGh8X3zpLo/ir+VM/xm4xaE4lWdY3plw78FzwKr1liI=; b=R/r1yfV5TvNGqmfhSonRPq7kP0DI7uYi4naCxxmTULLTzKE6zDPzfKqn62NPh6wbN/ ZAgcli/vhHx6f4VWWJl0IDkYK/SDBl6m5jEGDiKF30sGZN5vzlsyfrXNWN/Om1+MIIMr /Qnv0C3vu0Kijyvxk3ViULQavu0RQ4gjDQERhqUJR2+pU3g5CuusF8sjBTBv0pj6QrrC 86PPmADhBgqbVF7nRhWPqtmZhyEOp9a1EqPGDI14ZJSJZQsz0oGNxE4dNrzgjIwFwhMH iASdqjo3dzlHx07xDj8pFA3lUxwtJuYWV4Zfen3COiouyNwb/TJ/B/2CXXUcvA34PlEf 5V3Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E36J0lK6fdMhbSpyaUSxuHmVXf2WmmJ5HHozccA5Oy4GBTNWJSx /7BYtr0lyYqsocaxS9r595vHm6oC4UOdXQYJooY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpdQMDW0vmPxUP3XVRSRWcn2Q9oAmSALCVp63OIifEjdq7dBVdFpD9kPLej2NYhle5zJfkJrZYU6Onryml2Q8oA= X-Received: by 2002:a63:3444:: with SMTP id b65-v6mr2141030pga.396.1530714863287; Wed, 04 Jul 2018 07:34:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a17:90a:37e7:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 07:34:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 16:34:22 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: bEBlwrcly41amTQsugue9vLeAno Message-ID: To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" Cc: idr wg , Susan Hares Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000adc46405702d5326" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery-08 X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2018 14:34:31 -0000 --000000000000adc46405702d5326 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ketan, Thank you for comments. I see two fundamental issues here: *Issue #1: * With all assumptions made in the draft about awareness of the "other side" as well as with the additional requirement to set per interface policy to scope the content of BGP Hellos to specific peer or peers what is proposed here is not autodiscovery. At most it is BGP build in automation for p2p BGP session auto provisioning. So inbound configuration automation. Don't we have sufficient set of tools already ? And this is only local ... It does not discover IBGP or EBGP peers far from each other like proposed in other IDR expired document: draft-raszuk-idr-bgp-auto-discovery-05 I am really not sure if we should do that in BGP, but if so let's at least call it correctly. *Issue #2: * As you mentioned some proposed already TLVs have nothing to do with BGP. What is defined is the IGP like interface_IDs discovery for the purpose of LSVR. So initially LSVR claimed to *only* get passively BGP-LS information. Now we see more stuff being defined to help LSVR. Where does it stop ? Do we really want to add this code to BGP protocol which creates a global Internet reachability only if someone thought about using LSVR in few DCs ? You actually go further and already indicating that now BGP will be used as topology discovery for TE purposes. This is getting IMHO really bad. TLVs here look very innocent by itself ... but when you realize consequences this attaches LSVR together with core BGP - at least BGP code wise. I do not think this is good idea at all. Note that because basic BGP is used in few MSDCs there is number of followers which do want to use it also in much smaller DC fabrics. When you have few hundreds L3 nodes regular link state routing (even without any flooding reduction) would do much better job - but because of all of the noise to use BGP a lot of folks are getting very confused and positioning "BGP everywhere" regardless if this is optimal fit or not. + one more comment below ... *=E2=80=8B[KT] There is no intention to change the BGP state machine for th= e TCP session. * Well you are clearly calling for tearing down BGP upon missing reception of BGP Hello by removing reachability information. Well let's discuss this more. If BGP is established over connected interface (not to loopback) how do you attempt to bring down BGP when BGP peer will stop sending Hellos ? And if you have session between loopbacks is cutting reachability the best way to bring down BGP between two peers ? It sounds like we spend so much energy in routing BGP to be graceful that such brutal force is rather something to be avoided. So the way you are referring to deleting BGP sessions when Hellos stop does require quite some interaction with other BGP mechanisms as well as adjusting state machine. I understand you are trying to stay away from it .. well I am afraid it is not going to be possible :(. Thx, R. On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) wrote: > Hi Robert, > > > > Thanks for your review and comments. Please check inline below for > responses. > > > > > > *From:* Idr *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk > *Sent:* 04 July 2018 14:08 > *To:* idr wg > *Subject:* [Idr] draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery-08 > > > > > > Few questions and comments on draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery: > > > > 1. I recommend you rename HOLDTIME to H-TIME or R-TIME (Retention Time) i= n > order to avoid confusion with BGP OPEN HOLDTIME. > > *[KT] Ack =E2=80=93 we could rename it to disambiguate.* > > > > 2. While most of the text is consistent and talks about single peering > address there is moment when plural form is used: "that cover the peerin= g > address(es)". Can someone elaborate more on intention here to send multip= le > peering addresses ? Also if sending multiple peering addressed in BGP Hel= lo > is being considered where such addresses will be actually sent as Peering > Address TLV clearly talks about single address > > *[KT] It may be desired to have multiple (say loopback) peering addresses > for different types of BGP sessions. E.g. IPv4 and IPv6 or any other > AFI/SAFI split. Also see next comment.* > > > > 3. Related to #2 if I would like to send both IPv4 and IPv6 peering > addresses how those will be encoded ? Is there an assumption that Peering > Address TLV will be present multiple times in such cases ? > > *[KT] Yes. One for each peering address.* > > > > 4.. Are proposed Hello messages supposed to be send over all interfaces o= r > it will be customized on a per outbound interface or group of interfaces > basis ? > > *[KT] Customized on per interface basis that is defined by a local config > policy/template.* > > > > 5. Having Peering Address TLV & Local Prefixes TLV (for cases of loopback > peering) I don't quite see a need for Link Attribute TLV at all. > > *[KT] At this point it is to exchange interface ID and addresses so that > the links may be defined in an unambiguous was in the BGP-LS Link NLRI fo= r > each of these links. This may be required for BGP-SPF or other use-cases = in > DC where we want to signal the underlying link topology for say TE.* > > > > 6. Likewise Neighbor TLV seems quite unnecessary to me. To whom it will b= e > sent ? To the peer we just established the peering with :) ? To other pee= rs > - why ? > > *[KT] There may be policies that allow a peering to be accepted on a > specific link. It would be good to avoid one side trying setup a BGP > session while the other does not wish to. This mechanism allows > establishment of a 2-way state at each link level before the BGP session > establishment happens and also to ensure that the =E2=80=9Cpeering route= =E2=80=9D is > actually setup over that link.* > > > > 7. One of the fundamental element of all BGP peerings is ability to detec= t > peering liveness without tuning down BGP holdtime timer. Yet this proposa= l > does not mention nor signal a bit about say BFD to be used mutually by bo= th > sides on the discovered links. > > *[KT] Yes, this was not covered explicitly but can be done optionally. Th= e > desire to run BFD is one such attribute that may be signaled using the li= nk > attribute TLV.* > > > > 8. The draft is also pretty silent on how often the BGP HELLOs will be > sent. For example is there an exponential timer allowing to slow down whe= n > the other side is not there yet ? > > *[KT] This would be very similar to how IGPs or LDP run their hello which > is periodic but then also triggered when some change or a new neighbor is > learnt.* > > > > 9.. The text I read in the last paragraph is super scary: > > > > "A BGP peer > > maintains a hold timer with each Hello adjacency that it restarts > > when it receives a Hello that matches the adjacency. If the timer > > expires without receipt of a matching Hello from the peer, BGP > > concludes that the peer no longer wishes to keep BGP session for that > > link or that the peer has failed. The BGP peer then deletes the > > Hello adjacency. The route towards the BGP neighbor's loopback > > address that had been dynamically created due to that BGP Hello > > adjacency SHOULD be deleted accordingly. When the last Hello > > adjacency for an BGP session is deleted, the BGP peer terminates the > > BGP session and closing the transport connection." > > > > Your recommendation for two octet BGP Hello Holdtime expressed in seconds > is 15 sec. Are you invalidating use and state machine associated with BGP > Keepalive MSG above? I recommend this text is removed as it adds a lot of > new mechanism to BGP state machine. > > *=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B* > *[KT] There is no intention to change the BGP state machine for the TCP > session. The hello procedure brings in its own mechanism which is gets to > the same point where the BGP session is provisioned in existing procedure= . > Consider that an auto-discovered BGP session is to be removed or disabled > on an interface. This can be done by taking that link out of this discove= ry > mechanism. Such an action should result in stopping the hellos and > subsequently we also would like the BGP session state at TCP level to be > cleaned up at both ends.* > > > > 10. Do you plane to actually update BGP state machine ? > > *[KT] No change. However, you are right that the relationship between the > discovery mechanism and BGP state machine needs to be explained.* > > > > 11. At present your auto-discovery does not mention anything about use of > BGP MD5 or TCP-A0. Is there an assumption that peers which are discoverin= g > themselves will have those configured ? Is there also an assumption that = I > should always trust information received with BGP Hello messages ? > Shouldn't we perhaps aim at private/public key authentication model inste= ad > ? > > *[KT] This aspect still needs to be covered.* > > > > 12. Draft says: > > > > "BGP hello messages are only exchanged between physically connected peers > that are trustworthy." > > > > How is that trust determined ? Is there an implicit assumption that BGP > Hello is something you need to enable on a per physical interface basis > where you know apriori the other side of the fiber ? Doesn't it reduce th= e > full automation one should expect out of this proposal ? Also when I peer > with someone via L2 switch - still assume on a p2p basis - does this setu= p > prevents me from use of BGP Hello Messages ? > > *[KT] While this is true in a DC environment, perhaps we do need to defin= e > a generic security mechanism as part of this protocol extension.* > > > > *Thanks,* > > *Ketan* > > > > Thx, > > Robert. > > > > PS. I would like to first understand the authors perspective on the above > observations before responding to Sue's WG adoption call. > > > > > --000000000000adc46405702d5326 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ketan,

<= /div>
Thank you for comments.=C2=A0

I see two fundamental issues here:

Issue #1:=C2=A0

With all assumptions made in = the draft about awareness of the "other side" as well as with the= additional requirement to set per interface policy to scope the content of= BGP Hellos to specific peer or peers what is proposed here is not autodisc= overy. At most it is BGP build in automation for p2p BGP session auto provi= sioning. So inbound configuration automation. Don't we have sufficient = set of tools already ? And this is only local ... It does not discover IBGP= or EBGP peers far from each other like proposed in other IDR expired docum= ent:=C2=A0draft-raszuk-idr-bgp-auto-discovery-05
I am really not sure if we should do that in BGP= , but if so let's at least call it correctly.=C2=A0

Issue #2:=C2=A0

As you mentioned some proposed already T= LVs have nothing to do with BGP. What is defined is the IGP like interface_= IDs discovery for the purpose of LSVR. So initially LSVR claimed to *only* = get passively BGP-LS information. Now we see more stuff being defined to he= lp LSVR. Where does it stop ? Do we really want to add this code to BGP pro= tocol which creates a global Internet reachability only if someone thought = about using LSVR in few DCs ?=C2=A0

You actually go further and already indicating that now BGP w= ill be used as topology discovery for TE purposes. This is getting IMHO rea= lly bad.=C2=A0

TLVs he= re look very innocent by itself ... but when you realize consequences this = attaches LSVR together with core BGP - at least BGP code wise. I do not thi= nk this is good idea at all.=C2=A0

Note that because basic BGP is used in few MSDCs there is num= ber of followers which do want to use it also in much smaller DC fabrics. W= hen you have few hundreds L3 nodes regular link state routing (even without= any flooding reduction) would do much better job - but because of all of t= he noise to use BGP a lot of folks are getting very confused and positionin= g "BGP everywhere" regardless if this is optimal fit or not.=C2= =A0


+ one more comment below ...=C2=A0

<= /div>

=E2=80=8B
[KT] There is no intention to= change the BGP state machine for the TCP session.=C2=A0

Well you are cl= early calling for tearing down BGP upon missing reception of BGP Hello by r= emoving reachability information. Well let's discuss this more. If BGP = is established over connected interface (not to loopback) how do you attemp= t to bring down BGP when BGP peer will stop sending Hellos ?=C2=A0

And if you have session be= tween loopbacks is cutting reachability the best way to bring down BGP betw= een two peers ? It sounds like we spend so much energy in routing BGP to be= graceful that such brutal force is rather something to be avoided.=C2=A0

So the way you are refe= rring to deleting BGP sessions when Hellos stop does require quite some int= eraction with other BGP mechanisms as well as adjusting state machine. I un= derstand you are trying to stay away from it .. well I am afraid it is not = going to be possible :(.=C2=A0


Thx,
R.
=



On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 11:49 AM, K= etan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com> wrote:

Hi Robert,

=C2=A0

Thanks for your review= and comments. Please check inline below for responses.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
Sent: 04 July 2018 14:08
To: idr wg <idr= @ietf.org>
Subject: [Idr] draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery-08=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Few questions and comments on=C2=A0draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodisc= overy:

=C2=A0

1. I recommend you rename HOLDTIME to H-TIME or R-TIME (Retention Time= ) in order to avoid confusion with BGP OPEN HOLDTIME.=C2=A0

[KT] Ack =E2=80=93 we could ren= ame it to disambiguate.

=C2=A0

2. While most of the text is consistent and talks about single peering= address there is moment when plural form is used:=C2=A0 "that cover t= he peering address(es)". Can someone elaborate more on intention here to send multiple peering addresses ? Also if sending multiple peering= addressed in BGP Hello is being considered where such addresses will be ac= tually sent as Peering Address TLV clearly talks about single address

[KT] It may be desired t= o have multiple (say loopback) peering addresses for different types of BGP= sessions. E.g. IPv4 and IPv6 or any other AFI/SAFI split. Also see next comment.<= /p>

=C2=A0

3. Related to #2 if I would like to send both IPv4 and IPv6 peering ad= dresses how those will be encoded ? Is there an assumption that Peering Add= ress TLV will be present multiple times in such cases ?=C2=A0

[KT] Yes. One for each p= eering address.

=C2=A0

4.. Are proposed Hello messages supposed to be send over all interface= s or it will be customized on a per outbound interface or group of interfac= es basis ?=C2=A0

[KT] Customized on per interfac= e basis that is defined by a local config policy/template.

=C2=A0

5. Having Peering Address TLV & Local Prefixes TLV (for cases of l= oopback peering) I don't quite see a need for Link Attribute TLV at all= .=C2=A0

[KT] At this point it is= to exchange interface ID and addresses so that the links may be defined in= an unambiguous was in the BGP-LS Link NLRI for each of these links. This may be required for BGP-SPF or other use-cases in DC = where we want to signal the underlying link topology for say TE.=

=C2=A0

6. Likewise Neighbor TLV seems quite unnecessary to me. To whom it wil= l be sent ? To the peer we just established the peering with :) ? To other = peers - why ?=C2=A0

[KT] There may be polici= es that allow a peering to be accepted on a specific link. It would be good= to avoid one side trying setup a BGP session while the other does not wish to. This mechanism allows establishment of a 2-way sta= te at each link level before the BGP session establishment happens and also= to ensure that the =E2=80=9Cpeering route=E2=80=9D is actually setup over = that link.

=C2=A0

7. One of the fundamental element of all BGP peerings is ability to de= tect peering liveness without tuning down BGP holdtime timer. Yet this prop= osal does not mention nor signal a bit about say BFD to be used mutually by both sides on the discovered links.=C2=A0

[KT] Yes, this was not c= overed explicitly but can be done optionally. The desire to run BFD is one = such attribute that may be signaled using the link attribute TLV.

=C2=A0

8. The draft is also pretty silent on how often the BGP HELLOs=C2=A0 w= ill be sent. For example is there an exponential timer allowing to slow dow= n when the other side is not there yet ?=C2=A0

[KT] This would be very = similar to how IGPs or LDP run their hello which is periodic but then also = triggered when some change or a new neighbor is learnt.

=C2=A0

9.. The text I read in the last paragraph is super scary:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"A BGP peer

=C2=A0 =C2=A0maintains a hold timer with each Hello adjacency that it = restarts

=C2=A0 =C2=A0when it receives a Hello that matches the adjacency.=C2= =A0 If the timer

=C2=A0 =C2=A0expires without receipt of a matching Hello from the peer= , BGP

=C2=A0 =C2=A0concludes that the peer no longer wishes to keep BGP sess= ion for that

=C2=A0 =C2=A0link or that the peer has failed. The BGP peer then delet= es the

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Hello adjacency.=C2=A0 The route towards the BGP neighbor= 's loopback

=C2=A0 =C2=A0address that had been dynamically created due to that BGP= Hello

=C2=A0 =C2=A0adjacency SHOULD be deleted accordingly.=C2=A0 When the l= ast Hello

=C2=A0 =C2=A0adjacency for an BGP session is deleted, the BGP peer ter= minates the

=C2=A0 =C2=A0BGP session and closing the transport connection."

=C2=A0

Your recommendation for two octet BGP Hello Holdtime expressed in seco= nds is 15 sec. Are you invalidating use and state machine associated with B= GP Keepalive MSG above? I recommend this text is removed as it adds a lot of new mechanism to BGP state machine.=C2=A0

=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
[K= T] There is no intention to change the BGP state machine for the TCP sessio= n. The hello procedure brings in its own mechanism which is gets to the sam= e point where the BGP session is provisioned in existing procedure. Consider= that an auto-discovered BGP session is to be removed or disabled on an int= erface. This can be done by taking that link out of this discovery mechanis= m. Such an action should result in stopping the hellos and subsequently we also would like the BGP session= state at TCP level to be cleaned up at both ends.

=C2=A0

10. Do you plane to actually update BGP state machine ?=C2=A0

[KT] No change. However,= you are right that the relationship between the discovery mechanism and BG= P state machine needs to be explained.=

=C2=A0

11. At present your auto-discovery does not mention anything about use= of BGP MD5 or TCP-A0. Is there an assumption that peers which are discover= ing themselves will have those configured ? Is there also an assumption that I should always trust information received w= ith BGP Hello messages ? Shouldn't we perhaps aim at private/public key= authentication model instead ?=C2=A0

[KT] This aspect still n= eeds to be covered.

=C2=A0

12. Draft says:=C2=A0

=C2=A0

"BGP hello messages are only exchanged between physically connect= ed peers that are trustworthy."=C2=A0

=C2=A0

How is that trust determined ? Is there an implicit assumption that BG= P Hello is something you need to enable on a per physical interface basis w= here you know apriori the other side of the fiber ? Doesn't it reduce the full automation one should expect out of this = proposal ? Also when I peer with someone via L2 switch - still assume on a = p2p basis - does this setup prevents me from use of BGP Hello Messages ?=

[KT] While this is true = in a DC environment, perhaps we do need to define a generic security mechan= ism as part of this protocol extension.

=C2=A0=

Thanks,

Ketan

=C2=A0

Thx,

Robert.

=C2=A0

PS. I would like to first understand the authors perspective on the ab= ove observations before responding to Sue's WG adoption call.=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


--000000000000adc46405702d5326-- From nobody Thu Jul 5 08:54:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0070B130ED9 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 08:53:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dWztLW6yStnp for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 08:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orange.com (mta239.mail.business.static.orange.com [80.12.66.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9933130EDA for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 08:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar01.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.2]) by opfedar22.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 41M2TP3Fb2z308p; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 17:53:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.62]) by opfedar01.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 41M2TP2MByzBrLQ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 17:53:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e92a:c932:907e:8f06]) by OPEXCLILM5E.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::6958:931c:a396:f51e%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 17:53:45 +0200 From: To: Randy Bush CC: Interminable Discussion Room Thread-Topic: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-next-hop-capability-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHUD7tjV9AUMg5HA0yhNHH3IN7qaKSAzjSg Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 15:53:44 +0000 Message-ID: <11040_1530806025_5B3E3F09_11040_342_3_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A47AE004D@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <153008684965.15406.536825824891886594@ietfa.amsl.com> <19553_1530173556_5B349874_19553_6_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A47AB766D@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <32389_1530204755_5B351253_32389_173_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A47AB8A0A@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6235_1530257497_5B35E059_6235_365_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A47AB997A@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-next-hop-capability-03.txt X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 15:54:02 -0000 Randy, Thanks for taking the time for the suggestion. More inline > From: Randy Bush [mailto:randy@psg.com] > Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 5:11 PM >=20 > mornin' bruno, >=20 > > I generally agree that there are cases where you don't trust the > > source of the information. In such case, you can filter it a priori or > > a posteriori. That doesn't mean that the ability to share an > > information is bad. >=20 > then make clear what the boundaries are and how to ameliorate this > exposure. the example from ov-signal's sec cons specifically mandates > the defense. Thanks for the useful example. I've also looked at a recent RFC which has p= assed security review: BGP Large Community. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8092#section-7 Based on this, as of today, I'd propose the following text: This document does not introduce new security vulnerabilities in BGP. Speci= fically, an operator who is relying on the information carried in BGP must have a transitive trust relationship back to the source of t= he information. Specifying the mechanism(s) to provide such a relationship is beyond the scope of this document. Please refer to the S= ecurity Considerations section of for secu= rity mechanisms applicable to BGP. As this attribute is removed when the BGP Next-Hop is changed, the source o= f the information is the router which IP address is indicated in the BGP Ne= xt-Hop. Such Next-Hop is typically either within the AS when a BGP Next-Hop= Self policy is configured, or in the neighboring AS with which an intercon= nection and an EBGP has been established. If this neighboring AS is not tru= sted with regards to information carried in the BGP attribute, or carried i= n a specific capability, this attribute or specific capability should be re= moved when received. Note that in some cases, this Next-Hop may advertise i= nformation based on information it has received from its own downstream BGP= Next-Hop, hence the transitive trust relationship. If the underlying trans= port between both ASes is not trusted, BGP transport should be protected fo= r integrity and authentification The advertisement of BGP Next-Hop capabilities to EBGP peers may disclose, = to the peer AS, some capabilities of the BGP node and may help fingerprinti= ng its hardware model and software version. This may be mitigated by filter= ing the capability advertised to EBGP peers. Security of the Entropy Label capability advertisement is unchanged compare= d to which originally defined this signal= ing. Also, as per the IDR requirement for 2 implementations, I don't expect this= document to be sent to the IESG in the short term. Since then, I would exp= ect improvement in term of BGP security consideration. e.g. improved transp= ort security, guidance on BGP security considerations.=20 Thanks, --Bruno =20 > randy ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. From ntriantafillis@gmail.com Thu Jul 5 09:02:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8215130E51; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 09:02:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZWkie-YSr-1Q; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 09:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22d.google.com (mail-lj1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 12C4A130E17; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 09:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id u6-v6so7034232lju.13; Thu, 05 Jul 2018 09:02:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xtV4DVACqpJu/tSZkn2p+LVl9hz1Zy0totAglhbd1bU=; b=OciVP9qY6Ex19NaFRUfYzwPIdJXAlzr15gu+ii0WGqXeEOQn9rjbX1VTCRUDnEHV7i G5HRO+Y1mXRfon+VKfqrofvqVUGqYf9zc4NrREFMs+GsosULNNrkUOu9djRi9jcN9zba DSwBIRr+ScgCdhaG2fZmREOCiWPmjmTS60ji9Dpbj+cJvxW4vKbQY4wW8cj6H4wVP2PN 18/LSl0/GXfCebtBYpo7h5FHi+UJhmp713OnIuPdGrd80dxq295sMtS3A676tbFll+yf 2ONN7Up4VVvrRIFbY+MwSuNTq0qvbV/J2/d5CGC0tec+Y27EaGDIolPQEJsYpEIBLN2E oWyQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xtV4DVACqpJu/tSZkn2p+LVl9hz1Zy0totAglhbd1bU=; b=PGBjJ5Ce/KF8mjASbcAC4r6bNbjkVauB/c0UnRzZabk0tTEFBMBWYgp28/h2OEUHv/ A3v2IVWM4z453cQuj7x/ojommC2tZs8P9IV9RjyJXv6H4Iy+j/XDuQ5tqjfI+evB5ls4 Z15Fg9uiBvpHGjuWIJhW9iPaKp+bAKZCqL3J8hxdVoym0/IuziZBTQfN7+6MXV3hbn1l XQpzGuSw7fRBmXbKDuUagAluUZ0CfN4v7n+IBWpt81FCLXXGyrypezXnLsekNRu9rjMI J8wTHbgBuH3DdPdFRRhEFxGs0WZX9qvypeSZhOwXdPS6Pz+QfUGT1OTdYroFxYgbLrc/ xWdw== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E0dAME8jD7n/ZI5BbsHcp7yrIgTB9FSJrWPTOVsoc1K0wdgL38H zWNmsaoKkGaQA5JMv4Tu0wHKl2JB7IY3SaEsP8fK0A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpc1suXvs7/Yb2wEHZRlE/6p21O6JHK0VDrN0uSjXOEIAE52SlAuEN3nxCF11uWGrLWFHGEFMNxta0+i9ikeL6M= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:4242:: with SMTP id p63-v6mr4295853lja.83.1530806534986; Thu, 05 Jul 2018 09:02:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:8003:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 09:02:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Nikos Triantafillis Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 19:02:14 +0300 Message-ID: To: idr@ietf.org Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org, =?UTF-8?B?w5DDrMOQwqHCu8KiKMOSw6XDj8OIKQ==?= , "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" , aretana.ietf@gmail.com, John Scudder Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bce17c057042abce" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 16:04:47 -0000 --000000000000bce17c057042abce Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I'm not aware of any IPR related to this draft. Regards, Nikos.- From: Susan Hares ; Sent: 02 July 2018 22:39 To: idr@ietf.org Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org; '=C3=90=C3=AC=C3=90=C2=A1= =C2=BB=C2=A2(=C3=92=C3=A5=C3=8F=C3=88)' ;; Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) ;; aretana.ietf@gmail.com; 'John Scudder' ; Subject: WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Greetings: This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =C2=A8C July 16). https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/ The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response to this email. I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors to respond by July 7th. The WG should consider the following: 1) Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within Data Centers? 2) Does this mechanism work for other deployments? 3) If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc). 4) Does this interact with any of the LSVR work? I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through some of the WG LC for other drafts. We decided to wait until some of those discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call. Susan Hares - [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbo... Susan Hares - Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-nei... =3D?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=3D?=3D - Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-nei... Jeff Tantsura - Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-nei... Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) --000000000000bce17c057042abce Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I&= #39;m not aware of any IPR related to this draft.

= Regards,

Nikos.-
From: Susan =
Hares <shares@ndzh.com>=
;
Sent: 02 July 2018 22:39
To: idr@ietf.org
Cc: draft-x=
u-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org; '=C3=90=C3=AC=C3=90=C2=A1=C2=
=BB=C2=A2(=C3=92=C3=A5=C3=8F=C3=88)' <xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com>;; Ketan Talaulika=
r (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com&=
gt;;; aretana.ietf@gmail.com<=
/a>; 'John Scudder' <j=
gs@juniper.net>;
Subject: WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

Greetings:

This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscove=
ry (July 2 =C2=A8C July 16).

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neigh=
bor-autodiscovery/

The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response to t=
his email.  I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors to r=
espond by July 7th.

The WG should consider the following:

1)     Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within Da=
ta Centers?

2)     Does this mechanism work for other deployments?



3)     If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message?

Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc).


4)     Does this interact with any of the LSVR work?

I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through some=
 of the WG LC for other drafts.  We decided to wait until some of those dis=
cussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call.


Susan Hares
=20
=20
=20
=20

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charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <61B0F5FFD023474B9FD1CAD0AF4C5073@namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b2f413ab-4f7a-4109-ec33-08d5e2a68613 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 05 Jul 2018 18:38:38.3756 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR05MB4320 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-07-05_07:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=846 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1806210000 definitions=main-1807050207 Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] Note Friday IDR session X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 18:38:43 -0000 Hi All, A few people have contacted the chairs to express dismay about our being sc= heduled in the coveted last Friday slot. We are not any more excited about = it than you are (I had to change my return flight) but it is not an adminis= trative error -- as those of us who follow the IETF organizational stuff at= all know, the IETF meets all week, including Friday. We just were the ones= who lost the lottery, this time. Anyway, I wanted to make sure you all knew we're scheduled Friday 11:50 - 1= 3:20. If you look at the agenda Jie posted yesterday you will see we will l= ikely use most of that time slot. Thanks (& sorry), --John= From nobody Thu Jul 5 15:43:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70E5A130E22 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 15:43:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=instituut-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CkL7j6Yuq4tD for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 15:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22f.google.com (mail-oi0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C26B9130FC4 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 15:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id k81-v6so19931192oib.4 for ; Thu, 05 Jul 2018 15:43:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=instituut-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=fC4N2W2DEhd9U0HdJ4YJ+8elcfwNB4gMNDmzjneaxpI=; b=F9sKnrvp6rNT20+ZznKbSw7007/p6RTpiG9odeRBxC7Tm5oASxyu7AZmSVlHAurbNv LtgfkywzU+TtyscAEikduWxT3k5bHKPblSbmwb0z0aI2JC0mL2j3FUQ8QpjR4xYrdKDs kSGMYxV3LxoRLmDVzUf0ey6IHCLBogrrQT7/cYocXs5BqwzlKOaBoGpm1f2bpGf//8T5 BhWlfp9YX1ZDtUfag3Tz1SIuyhI4UW1sP1ME5tTRiEcA15Uw8xTMhaxMA3NoNevwswFw ubUKNbMe0CC3BkvBzT1nGbEdscvRCdW3hTeuSuOZ2rJ7g/vBFGL3YrATDd9M3zojdZFN 8fvA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=fC4N2W2DEhd9U0HdJ4YJ+8elcfwNB4gMNDmzjneaxpI=; b=SZrTPuXgavZa8eoj142z7fzayZdu6ZQRynTTKXwUnQVGVsZ9CDqZprDQsOUeVjhllF jC4KFEcLBeK5v9ZEynxLw6XyBudZVdhDVKzh/3Y9wSQnMEXD1WAhgvyliIV8F8rlRvWR QqmYmxb84O6eDEuRKqftzqt2MTnNRL4jvOpKXvhgoMlnkftjXRTPh8eyd9HiWidRxY1y STf9P4Bg12gboCNaQIX+6DyYJ9v2wnhw6T2dSTeDp36WHrC9IKQCmrnOBbpCkSut5jHk bYb79LbSsh0j2lI6RPHjW9oW/hEPTtfcY/3Ggmb91ouerHtqrfxDHFZ5+tXb0CEW8Ror QlPg== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E1JJDJFraNV7RSCUltLxd4j2s3jBCkqzEZMZ6LmJhVFu7inF+7u ZwaR772q/QShZoOOZjyy7K9euKmZWluzJavXO/FpvA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpd8K1SGNvnqPZhacvWhg5mp9nqd2nFN9xbTI1XktFfoBNndacbADiAvoKoXd69r2LShm0wc8WBkzMvOS9ivRto= X-Received: by 2002:aca:a982:: with SMTP id s124-v6mr8431188oie.80.1530830595956; Thu, 05 Jul 2018 15:43:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Job Snijders Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 00:42:58 +0200 Message-ID: To: John Scudder Cc: "idr@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e22cf10570484524" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Note Friday IDR session X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 22:43:28 -0000 --000000000000e22cf10570484524 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don=E2=80=99t be sorry! On Thu, 5 Jul 2018 at 20:38, John Scudder wrote: > Hi All, > > A few people have contacted the chairs to express dismay about our being > scheduled in the coveted last Friday slot. We are not any more excited > about it than you are (I had to change my return flight) but it is not an > administrative error -- as those of us who follow the IETF organizational > stuff at all know, the IETF meets all week, including Friday. We just wer= e > the ones who lost the lottery, this time. > > Anyway, I wanted to make sure you all knew we're scheduled Friday 11:50 - > 13:20. If you look at the agenda Jie posted yesterday you will see we wil= l > likely use most of that time slot. > > Thanks (& sorry), > > --John > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > --000000000000e22cf10570484524 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Don=E2=80=99t be sorry!

On Thu, 5 Jul 2018 at 20:38, John Scudd= er <jgs@juniper.net> wrote:
Hi All,

A few people have contacted the chairs to express dismay about our being sc= heduled in the coveted last Friday slot. We are not any more excited about = it than you are (I had to change my return flight) but it is not an adminis= trative error -- as those of us who follow the IETF organizational stuff at= all know, the IETF meets all week, including Friday. We just were the ones= who lost the lottery, this time.

Anyway, I wanted to make sure you all knew we're scheduled Friday 11:50= - 13:20. If you look at the agenda Jie posted yesterday you will see we wi= ll likely use most of that time slot.

Thanks (& sorry),

--John
_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
--000000000000e22cf10570484524-- From nobody Thu Jul 5 16:27:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 228FF130E13 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 16:27:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JS-Ie0ESm5Z3 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 16:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x231.google.com (mail-io0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE669130E1E for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2018 16:27:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x231.google.com with SMTP id t135-v6so9275604iof.7 for ; Thu, 05 Jul 2018 16:27:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=user-agent:date:subject:from:to:cc:message-id:thread-topic :references:in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=Wtm1ibmvYUPw19iG1dZSSRbd0TJ0PZTWHSkr+HNK3xE=; b=RrdCRmlaTKp58IPjEYK/fYO+XOne2YrJSOKXxeIQs5TwOIPoCSOThWnyvAFyyExdbr uozXMR6BNO9GEVtwbs5p6ljCeib5Hz8L5FgRyH8M6wfQVDw68l7dSmfWDgaKdH+xNbqQ VlCrogXOV2l1+9MWW44BndYzCmMQHd1Np1Xo9AVIwISX4FJ42Wx94LwrwqENUcnsr0MN TSDIrNQvB+cvrT8lwcg+zbCGX3PDPkbLW5nimWQiOcZcFLh5qoCkmy0GFttPJ7RzuRPW in3SAzIsNvneF/38e5SHY/AgHkZ1gUjBU511l7Ryf6UtTuGNqyPkeCQ/HMt6xtR+wRhR Hq5A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:user-agent:date:subject:from:to:cc:message-id :thread-topic:references:in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=Wtm1ibmvYUPw19iG1dZSSRbd0TJ0PZTWHSkr+HNK3xE=; b=GWtnOj2tHuo0VV6nGy4yt7CJn8w/jPSxYdrByvJGUugpoQKLu71kXUCx8xqf+62gi5 HKhJGROFnhVilc3Yz08ENKSDfKjAP5JEjC/hxGTU8Va0mfFzCNyikixmhr5e6E5G+195 s/XoKlYY5K3L52bpzVXJ3PYCGF/ULiiHYV4GWWrJgPEI6Wh+W9gC+aXnK6m6s/+Nl+SO iVEXmSYvOCDTgAtvb4Y6TFAcZbTe9mRNEj0jnrOug6OtqdP6IutUzxjj3MgSYgtKB3nB ip1QlarhI8sVoT/cnSxrIqFDNL8nIdjNUjBVcDFpBzKe7zJJ0CYpUGDFkMBPTkKbAr1E VcgQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlHtocTnw8SpYkA9v1MJpc816BVRBtdakq84sE0C0JZXcY+RBafL oTWzdc97tQ2NOZzk63l7aZE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpeITgQ83tG0GrC6Mtt2obJAO4v2hhKMZXbi7zLKs2dRaHHAznNiw6lHIfl0QozIWpeg3l5CEQ== X-Received: by 2002:a6b:9bd1:: with SMTP id d200-v6mr7185391ioe.147.1530833244145; Thu, 05 Jul 2018 16:27:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.125] (47-36-65-40.dhcp.reno.nv.charter.com. [47.36.65.40]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v190-v6sm2864043itc.30.2018.07.05.16.27.22 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 05 Jul 2018 16:27:23 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.e.1.180613 Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 16:27:21 -0700 From: Jeff Tantsura To: Job Snijders , John Scudder CC: "idr@ietf.org" Message-ID: <55193C50-FE75-4591-9970-5D049382B8CF@gmail.com> Thread-Topic: [Idr] Note Friday IDR session References: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3613652843_870427355" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Note Friday IDR session X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 23:27:28 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3613652843_870427355 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable +1 >From time to time we all get last IETF day slots, this is part of the fair = allocation process, nothing to be sorry about!=20 =20 Cheers, Jeff =20 From: Idr on behalf of Job Snijders Date: Thursday, July 5, 2018 at 15:45 To: John Scudder Cc: "idr@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Idr] Note Friday IDR session =20 Don=E2=80=99t be sorry! =20 On Thu, 5 Jul 2018 at 20:38, John Scudder wrote: Hi All, A few people have contacted the chairs to express dismay about our being sc= heduled in the coveted last Friday slot. We are not any more excited about i= t than you are (I had to change my return flight) but it is not an administr= ative error -- as those of us who follow the IETF organizational stuff at al= l know, the IETF meets all week, including Friday. We just were the ones who= lost the lottery, this time. Anyway, I wanted to make sure you all knew we're scheduled Friday 11:50 - 1= 3:20. If you look at the agenda Jie posted yesterday you will see we will li= kely use most of that time slot. Thanks (& sorry), --John _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.o= rg https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr=20 --B_3613652843_870427355 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable --B_3613987477_1145753576-- From nobody Mon Jul 9 13:28:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C46AA130F66; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 13:28:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UypATnivGmdJ; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 13:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D04A130DE1; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 13:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id DF8233B6A3522; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 21:28:19 +0100 (IST) Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.38) by lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.43) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 21:28:21 +0100 Received: from SJCEML521-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.132]) by SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.236]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 13:28:16 -0700 From: Linda Dunbar To: Jeff Tantsura , Eric C Rosen , "idr@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? Thread-Index: AQHUF8Lt5oAKKlZ+BUmHgmLAUQBnVKSHVqBA Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 20:28:15 +0000 Message-ID: <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A8BCC@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: <78D707C9-6DC2-459F-81E4-A53B46F1F019@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <78D707C9-6DC2-459F-81E4-A53B46F1F019@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.153.102] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A8BCCsjceml521mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? 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"draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? References: <78D707C9-6DC2-459F-81E4-A53B46F1F019@gmail.com> <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A8BCC@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A8BCC@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3613988098_314371136" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 20:35:04 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3613988098_314371136 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Linda, =20 You meant to say =E2=80=93 you=E2=80=99d use RR to distribute information injected from= and by a controller? Reflector (as the name suggests) reflects the routes, it doesn=E2=80=99t originat= es them as part of the reflector functionality =C2=A0(it for sure could as a BGP= speaker if such functionality is collocated with RR) =20 Please read my initial questions, it looks like what you are trying to achi= eve could be done with the existing technology. Thanks! =20 Cheers, Jeff =20 From: Linda Dunbar Date: Monday, July 9, 2018 at 13:28 To: Jeff Tantsura , Eric C Rosen , "idr@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" = Subject: RE: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by d= raft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? =20 Jeff,=20 =20 We would like to use RR as controller to distribute more detailed tunnel in= formation, such as IPsec configuration & keys because in managed large scale= Overlay deployment (SD-WAN), it doesn=E2=80=99t scale to allow all CPEs to negoti= ate IPsec keys.=20 =20 Linda =20 From: Jeff Tantsura [mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Monday, July 09, 2018 3:25 PM To: Linda Dunbar ; Eric C Rosen ; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by d= raft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? =20 Hi Linda, =20 Why would you want to build what you are trying to do into protocol? #1 local policy #2 NO_ADVERTISE does that exactly=20 =20 Cheers, Jeff =20 From: Idr on behalf of Linda Dunbar Date: Monday, July 9, 2018 at 13:14 To: Eric C Rosen , "idr@ietf.org" , "draf= t-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" Subject: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft= -ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? =20 Eric,=20 =20 draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 discussed ways to resolve conflicts of mult= iple UPDATE messages with Tunnel Encap attributes.=20 =20 Is it possible to have following capability?=20 Have a bit indicating a specific UPDATE is from authoritative source, there= fore overwrite all other Tunnel Attributes for the Prefix X to avoid recursi= ve next hop issues and tunnel selection at the receiving Router?=20 Have a bit indicating that a specific UPDATE only contain Tunnel attributes= for the receiving Router, therefore can=E2=80=99t be forwarded?=20 =20 You said that SAFI 7 is deprecated because no one seemed interested in usin= g it. We are very interested in using it because=20 it can be easily distinguished from normal BGP UPDATE The receiving router doesn=E2=80=99t have to =E2=80=9CFilter=E2=80=9D the tunnel attributes = before forwarding to others. =20 Can even be used for passing reconfigured IPsec keys to two ends of a tunne= l.=20 =20 Therefore we think SAFI 7 should be reserved.=20 =20 Thanks, Linda Dunbar =20 From: Eric C Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net]=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2018 12:21 PM To: Linda Dunbar ; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tu= nnel-encaps@ietf.org Subject: Re: What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? can draft-ietf-idr= -tunnel-encaps-09 preserve trigger tunnel creation before VPN is established= ? =20 On 7/2/2018 6:31 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote: Eric, IDR group,=20 =20 It is indicated that RFC5512 is to be replaced by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-enc= aps. But draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 stated that it deprecates the Encapsulation SAFI.=20 =20 We find the Encapsulation SAFI is quite useful for CPE based EVPN. For exa= mple, a Controller (say RR) can send an update with Encapsulation SAFI to tw= o end points to trigger a tunnel establishment between them.=20 What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? Can we preserve it in draft-iet= f-idr-tunnel-encaps? =20 Thanks, Linda Dunbar =20 SAFI 7 was deprecated because no one seemed interested in using it, it crea= tes additional operational issues, there is no real need for it, and it was = discouraging folks from actually using the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute. = This is discussed briefly in section 1.2 of the draft. You can get a similar effect by using the technique described in section 7 = of the draft. If PE1 is the egress point of a tunnel, have PE1 originate an UPDATE whose = NLRI is PE1's loopback address. Put the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute (wit= h PE1 as remote endpoint) on this UPDATE. (The next hop field of this UPDAT= E doesn't really matter, as long as it is resolvable.) When PE1 originates = VPN routes, it sets the next hop to be its loopback address. Per section 7,= this will result in packets being sent to PE1 though the specified tunnel. =20 _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.o= rg https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr=20 --B_3613988098_314371136 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Linda,=

&nbs= p;

You mea= nt to say =E2=80=93 you=E2=80=99d use RR to distribute information injected from and by = a controller?

Reflector (as the name suggests) reflects the routes, it doesn=E2=80=99t = originates them as part of the reflector functionality =C2=A0(it for sure could = as a BGP speaker if such functionality is collocated with RR)

 

Please read my in= itial questions, it looks like what you are trying to achieve could be done = with the existing technology.

Thanks!

 

Cheers,

Jeff

 

From: Linda Dunba= r <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
Date: Monday, July 9, 2018 at 13= :28
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, Eric C Rose= n <erosen@juniper.net>, "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>,= "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-idr-tunnel= -encaps@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Idr] Possible to set up priorit= y for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ?

&n= bsp;

Je= ff,

&nb= sp;

We w= ould like to use RR as controller to distribute more detailed tunnel informa= tion, such as IPsec configuration & keys because in managed large scale = Overlay deployment (SD-WAN), it doesn=E2=80=99t scale to allow all CPEs to negotia= te IPsec keys.

 

Linda

 

From: Jeff Ta= ntsura [mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, July 09, 20= 18 3:25 PM
To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>; Eric = C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-enca= ps@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tun= nels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ?

<= /div>

 

Hi Linda,

<= span style=3D'color:windowtext'> 

Why would you want to build what you are try= ing to do into protocol?

#1 local policy

= #2  NO_ADVERTISE does that exactly

 

Cheers,

Jeff

 

From: Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf o= f Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@hua= wei.com>
Date: Monday, July 9, 2018 at 13:14
To: = Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net&= gt;, "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org"= <draft-ietf-idr-t= unnel-encaps@ietf.org>
Subject: [Idr] Possible to set up pr= iority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ?

&n= bsp;

Eric,

 

draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 discussed ways to resolve conflicts of mult= iple UPDATE messages with Tunnel Encap attributes.

 

Is it possible to have following = capability?

  • H= ave a bit indicating a specific UPDATE is from authoritative source, therefo= re overwrite all other Tunnel Attributes for the Prefix X to avoid recursive= next hop issues and tunnel selection at the receiving Router? <= /o:p>
  • Have a bit indicating that a specific UPDATE only contain Tunn= el attributes for the receiving Router, therefore can=E2=80=99t be forwarded?

 

You said that SAFI 7 is deprecated because no one seemed interested in usin= g it. We are very interested in using it because

  • it can be easily distinguished from norm= al  BGP UPDATE
  •  The receiving router doe= sn=E2=80=99t have to =E2=80=9CFilter=E2=80=9D the tunnel attributes before forwarding to other= s.  
  • Can even be used for passing reconfigure= d IPsec keys to two ends of a tunnel.

 

Therefore we think SAFI 7 should be rese= rved.

&= nbsp;

Th= anks, Linda Dunbar

 

From: E= ric C Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2018 12:21 PM
To: Linda Dun= bar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com= >; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.orgSubject: Re: What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? can draft-= ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 preserve trigger tunnel creation before VPN is est= ablished?

 

On 7/2/2018 6:31 PM, = Linda Dunbar wrote:


Er= ic, IDR group,

 

It is indicated that RFC5512 is to be rep= laced by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps. But draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 s= tated that it deprecates the

Encapsulation SA= FI.

 

We find the Encapsulation SAFI is quite = useful for CPE based EVPN.  For example, a Controller (say RR) can send= an update with Encapsulation SAFI to two end points to trigger a tunnel est= ablishment between them.

What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? Can we preserv= e it in draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps?

 

Thanks, Linda Dunbar

 


SAFI 7 was deprecated because no one seemed interested = in using it, it creates additional operational issues, there is no real need= for it, and it was discouraging folks from actually using the Tunnel Encaps= ulation attribute.  This is discussed briefly in section 1.2 of the dra= ft.

You can get a similar effect by using the technique described in = section 7 of the draft.

If PE1 is the egress point of a tunnel, have = PE1 originate an UPDATE whose NLRI is PE1's loopback address.  Put the = Tunnel Encapsulation attribute (with PE1 as remote endpoint) on this UPDATE.=   (The next hop field of this UPDATE doesn't really matter, as long as = it is resolvable.)  When PE1 originates VPN routes, it sets the next ho= p to be its loopback address.  Per section 7, this will result in packe= ts being sent to PE1 though the specified tunnel.

 <= /o:p>

_________________= ______________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https= ://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

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"draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e588db0570973477" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 20:53:38 -0000 --000000000000e588db0570973477 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Linda, I think Jeff is asking why not to use well known community to scope the blast radius of the advertisement. But personally I think this is pretty weak protection - if this would be the only protection against IPSec credential's hijack. IMO this needs to be protected a bit stronger such that even leak of the update will cause no harm or VPN compromise. Thx, R. On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 10:50 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote: > Jeff, > > > > The answer to your question =E2=80=9CWhy would you want to build what you= are > trying to do into protocol?=E2=80=9D is > > - We want to use BGP to do more (i.e. use RR to distribute > information injected from and by a controller). to eliminate dealing with > the changes to NHRP/DSVPN. > > > > Can you elaborate the =E2=80=9Cthe existing technology=E2=80=9D? > > > > Linda > > > > *From:* Jeff Tantsura [mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Monday, July 09, 2018 3:35 PM > > *To:* Linda Dunbar ; Eric C Rosen < > erosen@juniper.net>; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established > by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? > > > > Linda, > > > > You meant to say =E2=80=93 you=E2=80=99d use RR to distribute information= injected from > and by a controller? > > Reflector (as the name suggests) reflects the routes, it doesn=E2=80=99t > originates them as part of the reflector functionality (it for sure coul= d > as a BGP speaker if such functionality is collocated with RR) > > > > Please read my initial questions, it looks like what you are trying to > achieve could be done with the existing technology. > > Thanks! > > > > Cheers, > > Jeff > > > > *From: *Linda Dunbar > *Date: *Monday, July 9, 2018 at 13:28 > *To: *Jeff Tantsura , Eric C Rosen < > erosen@juniper.net>, "idr@ietf.org" , " > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" ietf.org> > *Subject: *RE: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established > by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? > > > > Jeff, > > > > We would like to use RR as controller to distribute more detailed tunnel > information, such as IPsec configuration & keys because in managed large > scale Overlay deployment (SD-WAN), it doesn=E2=80=99t scale to allow all = CPEs to > negotiate IPsec keys. > > > > Linda > > > > *From:* Jeff Tantsura [mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com > ] > *Sent:* Monday, July 09, 2018 3:25 PM > *To:* Linda Dunbar ; Eric C Rosen < > erosen@juniper.net>; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established > by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? > > > > Hi Linda, > > > > Why would you want to build what you are trying to do into protocol? > > #1 local policy > > #2 NO_ADVERTISE does that exactly > > > > Cheers, > > Jeff > > > > *From: *Idr on behalf of Linda Dunbar < > linda.dunbar@huawei.com> > *Date: *Monday, July 9, 2018 at 13:14 > *To: *Eric C Rosen , "idr@ietf.org" , " > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" ietf.org> > *Subject: *[Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? > > > > Eric, > > > > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 discussed ways to resolve conflicts of > multiple UPDATE messages with Tunnel Encap attributes. > > > > Is it possible to have following capability? > > - Have a bit indicating a specific UPDATE is from authoritative > source, therefore overwrite all other Tunnel Attributes for the Prefix X = to > avoid recursive next hop issues and tunnel selection at the receiving > Router? > > - Have a bit indicating that a specific UPDATE only contain Tunnel > attributes for the receiving Router, therefore can=E2=80=99t be forwarded= ? > > > > You said that SAFI 7 is deprecated because no one seemed interested in > using it. We are very interested in using it because > > - it can be easily distinguished from normal BGP UPDATE > > - The receiving router doesn=E2=80=99t have to =E2=80=9CFilter=E2= =80=9D the tunnel > attributes before forwarding to others. > > - Can even be used for passing reconfigured IPsec keys to two ends > of a tunnel. > > > > Therefore we think SAFI 7 should be reserved. > > > > Thanks, Linda Dunbar > > > > *From:* Eric C Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net ] > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 03, 2018 12:21 PM > *To:* Linda Dunbar ; idr@ietf.org; > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? can > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 preserve trigger tunnel creation before > VPN is established? > > > > On 7/2/2018 6:31 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote: > > Eric, IDR group, > > > > It is indicated that RFC5512 is to be replaced by > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps. But draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 stated > that it deprecates the > > Encapsulation SAFI. > > > > We find the Encapsulation SAFI is quite useful for CPE based EVPN. For > example, a Controller (say RR) can send an update with Encapsulation SAFI > to two end points to trigger a tunnel establishment between them. > > What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? Can we preserve it in > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps? > > > > Thanks, Linda Dunbar > > > > > SAFI 7 was deprecated because no one seemed interested in using it, it > creates additional operational issues, there is no real need for it, and = it > was discouraging folks from actually using the Tunnel Encapsulation > attribute. This is discussed briefly in section 1.2 of the draft. > > You can get a similar effect by using the technique described in section = 7 > of the draft. > > If PE1 is the egress point of a tunnel, have PE1 originate an UPDATE whos= e > NLRI is PE1's loopback address. Put the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute > (with PE1 as remote endpoint) on this UPDATE. (The next hop field of thi= s > UPDATE doesn't really matter, as long as it is resolvable.) When PE1 > originates VPN routes, it sets the next hop to be its loopback address. > Per section 7, this will result in packets being sent to PE1 though the > specified tunnel. > > > > _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > --000000000000e588db0570973477 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Linda,

<= /div>
I think Jeff is asking why not to use well known co= mmunity to scope the blast radius of the advertisement.=C2=A0

But personally I think this is pret= ty weak protection - if this would be the only protection against IPSec cre= dential's hijack. IMO this needs to be protected a bit stronger such th= at even leak of the update will cause no harm or VPN compromise.

Thx,
R.


=
On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 10:50 PM, Linda Dunba= r <linda.dunbar@huawei.com> wrote:

Jeff,

=C2=A0

The answer to your que= stion =E2=80=9CWhy would you want t= o build what you are trying to do into protocol?=E2=80=9D is

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 We want to use BG= P to do more (i.e. use RR to distribute information in= jected from and by a controller). to eliminate dealing with the changes = to NHRP/DSVPN.

=C2=A0

Can you elaborate the = =E2=80=9Cthe existing technology=E2= =80=9D?

=C2=A0

Linda

=C2=A0

From:= Jeff Tantsura [mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2018 3:35 PM


To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>; Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>; idr@ietf.org; draft-i= etf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels establish= ed by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ?

=C2=A0

Linda,

=C2=A0

You meant to say = =E2=80=93 you=E2=80=99d use RR to distribute information injected from and = by a controller?

Reflector (as the n= ame suggests) reflects the routes, it doesn=E2=80=99t originates them as pa= rt of the reflector functionality =C2=A0(it for sure could as a BGP speaker= if such functionality is collocated with RR)

=C2=A0

Please read my init= ial questions, it looks like what you are trying to achieve could be done w= ith the existing technology.

Thanks!

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Jeff<= /span>

=C2=A0

From: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
Date: Monday, July 9, 2018 at 13:28
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>, &= quot;idr@ietf.org&quo= t; <idr@ietf.org&g= t;, "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-= idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels establish= ed by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ?

=C2=A0

Jeff,

=C2=A0

We would like to use R= R as controller to distribute more detailed tunnel information, such as IPs= ec configuration & keys because in managed large scale Overlay deployme= nt (SD-WAN), it doesn=E2=80=99t scale to allow all CPEs to negotiate IPsec keys.

=C2=A0

Linda=

=C2=A0

From:= Jeff Tantsura [mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2018 3:25 PM
To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>; Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels establish= ed by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ?

=C2=A0

Hi Linda,=

=C2=A0

Why would you want = to build what you are trying to do into protocol?

#1 local policy

#2 =C2=A0NO_ADVERTI= SE does that exactly

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Jeff

=C2=A0

From: Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Linda Du= nbar <linda= .dunbar@huawei.com>
Date: Monday, July 9, 2018 at 13:14
To: Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>, "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encap= s@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org>
Subject: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established b= y draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ?

=C2=A0

Eric,

=C2=A0

draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-= encaps-09 discussed ways to resolve conflicts of multiple UPDATE messa= ges with Tunnel Encap attributes.

=C2=A0

Is it possible to have= following capability?

-=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Have a bit indicating a = specific UPDATE is from authoritative source, therefore overwrite all other= Tunnel Attributes for the Prefix X to avoid recursive next hop issues and = tunnel selection at the receiving Router?

-=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Have a bit indicating th= at a specific UPDATE only contain Tunnel attributes for the receiving Route= r, therefore can=E2=80=99t be forwarded?

=C2=A0

You said that SAFI 7 i= s deprecated because no one seemed interested in using it. We are very inte= rested in using it because

-=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 it can be easily disting= uished from normal =C2=A0BGP UPDATE

-=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0The receiving rout= er doesn=E2=80=99t have to =E2=80=9CFilter=E2=80=9D the tunnel attributes b= efore forwarding to others. =C2=A0

-=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Can even be used for pas= sing reconfigured IPsec keys to two ends of a tunnel.

=C2=A0

Therefore we think SAF= I 7 should be reserved.

=C2=A0

Thanks, Linda Dunbar

=C2=A0

From:= Eric C Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2018 12:21 PM
To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org
Subject: Re: What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? can draft-i= etf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 preserve trigger tunnel creation before VPN i= s established?

=C2=A0

On 7/2/2018 6:31 PM, = Linda Dunbar wrote:

Eric, IDR group,

=C2=A0

It is indicated that RFC5512 is to be replaced by draft-ietf-idr-tu= nnel-encaps. But draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 stated that it deprecates the

Encapsulation SAFI.

=C2=A0

We find the Encapsulat= ion SAFI is quite useful for CPE based EVPN.=C2=A0 For example, a Controlle= r (say RR) can send an update with Encapsulation SAFI to two end points to = trigger a tunnel establishment between them.

What are side effect f= or having Encap SAFI? Can we preserve it in draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps?

=C2=A0

Thanks, Linda Dunbar

=C2=A0


SAFI 7 was deprecated because no one seemed interested in using it, it crea= tes additional operational issues, there is no real need for it, and it was= discouraging folks from actually using the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute.= =C2=A0 This is discussed briefly in section 1.2 of the draft.

You can get a similar effect by using the technique described in section 7 = of the draft.

If PE1 is the egress point of a tunnel, have PE1 originate an UPDATE whose = NLRI is PE1's loopback address.=C2=A0 Put the Tunnel Encapsulation attr= ibute (with PE1 as remote endpoint) on this UPDATE.=C2=A0 (The next hop fie= ld of this UPDATE doesn't really matter, as long as it is resolvable.)=C2=A0 When PE1 originates VPN routes, it sets the ne= xt hop to be its loopback address.=C2=A0 Per section 7, this will result in= packets being sent to PE1 though the specified tunnel.

=C2=A0

___________________= ____________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr


_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr


--000000000000e588db0570973477-- From nobody Mon Jul 9 14:03:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC724131023; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 14:03:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15C8B0YrcN7Z; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 14:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x230.google.com (mail-yw0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80802127332; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 14:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x230.google.com with SMTP id p129-v6so7055190ywg.7; Mon, 09 Jul 2018 14:03:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=user-agent:date:subject:from:to:cc:message-id:thread-topic :references:in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=1KtMntKcGJ6j3QENrbrVzDFun2PLEaSUY2fe5w0ezEo=; b=eakdzPLD5noNHUAEXM1+ouhp/l/BIsCE9XWXA0YdJj4FOL9gPo5tO1F4d3o8nXqyck DnlxpoqAX5Mrwk63sU0POtMhokcD//7kN5SBeu4Hj/CWkPSEKbV5++gND6i1PVN7HegP x+dzS+VphtriY+jsbOQxyOgOtLew1YUYNycs2+Xz6OCoyo0HcEB82LrGAY4Y7Oi2hZ78 O8pyQ4CzmIDm9cF2R8CU05FmWp/GWBXF2gu86DimfcFn27hLxvyIaIqFLc4IUetVM8ef 2xEU6ul76Gq9fT4p2jkVD17VDPvMO40KSvTJIyQHRevFH277UAObqUxn+tUpRPCdxuqE YQ4w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:user-agent:date:subject:from:to:cc:message-id :thread-topic:references:in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=1KtMntKcGJ6j3QENrbrVzDFun2PLEaSUY2fe5w0ezEo=; b=F3xms/+pQ4cpsqKEIrYKsMKznhOwT3ZVRpuV4wwfWJ8ZdoCAUxHIreJApJ6WGofwPD iF1mAPKazdIT38HtYNxRJTxprHpDFSsg+lJy2ha/J7AxITzfkTknfwN/qT6v6dvsCFor g8/yFuW/4dRxGGwLlNEeZe+uLndnjiG5czZjC2aPUsH8Y9y5z/mYfNKSVuPyvVYJLGrY 7yShTkavApVYJPmq2ga6kzpWUfpnYyGadkywU/1jRDmUv0PtPuY/LAe/EWlRbLvt6lLK Q8rnxJLtQlSsz+6vDazrVE/u1fWcN3iaIfNN9RCetTdbC3cOAQOtgyMoBgl1jBpfGRGU PCkw== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E0ysowZ3Vj772WndK/pL/gEjHBbfdjxSTMbyXORhTGgJoegs8Co p7/QCPzBRu8BqTrkei3SPQY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpe61DStqFIhIbywY53rOn3klRzUDVfAY20jCebxfq87P3WUoNPok+wBP3naqdbVL0F2Q/+lKw== X-Received: by 2002:a0d:f645:: with SMTP id g66-v6mr10494412ywf.253.1531170225663; Mon, 09 Jul 2018 14:03:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [135.227.239.108] ([66.201.62.254]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x69-v6sm4213415ywx.105.2018.07.09.14.03.44 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 09 Jul 2018 14:03:45 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.e.1.180613 Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 14:03:42 -0700 From: Jeff Tantsura To: Robert Raszuk , Linda Dunbar CC: Eric C Rosen , "idr@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? References: <78D707C9-6DC2-459F-81E4-A53B46F1F019@gmail.com> <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A8BCC@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A8BEF@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3613989824_2131015411" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 21:03:50 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3613989824_2131015411 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Yes Robert, exactly and such I would question the use of BGP (KitchenSinkPr= otocol) to do so in general =20 Cheers, Jeff =20 From: on behalf of Robert Raszuk Date: Monday, July 9, 2018 at 13:53 To: Linda Dunbar Cc: Jeff Tantsura , Eric C Rosen , "idr@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" = Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by d= raft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? =20 Hi Linda, =20 I think Jeff is asking why not to use well known community to scope the bla= st radius of the advertisement.=20 =20 But personally I think this is pretty weak protection - if this would be th= e only protection against IPSec credential's hijack. IMO this needs to be pr= otected a bit stronger such that even leak of the update will cause no harm = or VPN compromise. =20 Thx, R. =20 =20 =20 On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 10:50 PM, Linda Dunbar wro= te: Jeff,=20 =20 The answer to your question =E2=80=9CWhy would you want to build what you are try= ing to do into protocol?=E2=80=9D is=20 - We want to use BGP to do more (i.e. use RR to distribute informati= on injected from and by a controller). to eliminate dealing with the changes= to NHRP/DSVPN.=20 =20 Can you elaborate the =E2=80=9Cthe existing technology=E2=80=9D? =20 Linda =20 From: Jeff Tantsura [mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Monday, July 09, 2018 3:35 PM To: Linda Dunbar ; Eric C Rosen ; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by d= raft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? =20 Linda, =20 You meant to say =E2=80=93 you=E2=80=99d use RR to distribute information injected from= and by a controller? Reflector (as the name suggests) reflects the routes, it doesn=E2=80=99t originat= es them as part of the reflector functionality (it for sure could as a BGP = speaker if such functionality is collocated with RR) =20 Please read my initial questions, it looks like what you are trying to achi= eve could be done with the existing technology. Thanks! =20 Cheers, Jeff =20 From: Linda Dunbar Date: Monday, July 9, 2018 at 13:28 To: Jeff Tantsura , Eric C Rosen , "idr@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" = Subject: RE: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by d= raft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? =20 Jeff,=20 =20 We would like to use RR as controller to distribute more detailed tunnel in= formation, such as IPsec configuration & keys because in managed large scale= Overlay deployment (SD-WAN), it doesn=E2=80=99t scale to allow all CPEs to negoti= ate IPsec keys.=20 =20 Linda =20 From: Jeff Tantsura [mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Monday, July 09, 2018 3:25 PM To: Linda Dunbar ; Eric C Rosen ; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by d= raft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? =20 Hi Linda, =20 Why would you want to build what you are trying to do into protocol? #1 local policy #2 NO_ADVERTISE does that exactly=20 =20 Cheers, Jeff =20 From: Idr on behalf of Linda Dunbar Date: Monday, July 9, 2018 at 13:14 To: Eric C Rosen , "idr@ietf.org" , "draf= t-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" Subject: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft= -ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? =20 Eric,=20 =20 draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 discussed ways to resolve conflicts of mult= iple UPDATE messages with Tunnel Encap attributes.=20 =20 Is it possible to have following capability?=20 - Have a bit indicating a specific UPDATE is from authoritative sour= ce, therefore overwrite all other Tunnel Attributes for the Prefix X to avoi= d recursive next hop issues and tunnel selection at the receiving Router?=20 - Have a bit indicating that a specific UPDATE only contain Tunnel a= ttributes for the receiving Router, therefore can=E2=80=99t be forwarded?=20 =20 You said that SAFI 7 is deprecated because no one seemed interested in usin= g it. We are very interested in using it because=20 - it can be easily distinguished from normal BGP UPDATE - The receiving router doesn=E2=80=99t have to =E2=80=9CFilter=E2=80=9D the tunnel at= tributes before forwarding to others. =20 - Can even be used for passing reconfigured IPsec keys to two ends o= f a tunnel.=20 =20 Therefore we think SAFI 7 should be reserved.=20 =20 Thanks, Linda Dunbar =20 From: Eric C Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net]=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2018 12:21 PM To: Linda Dunbar ; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tu= nnel-encaps@ietf.org Subject: Re: What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? can draft-ietf-idr= -tunnel-encaps-09 preserve trigger tunnel creation before VPN is established= ? =20 On 7/2/2018 6:31 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote: Eric, IDR group,=20 =20 It is indicated that RFC5512 is to be replaced by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-enc= aps. But draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 stated that it deprecates the Encapsulation SAFI.=20 =20 We find the Encapsulation SAFI is quite useful for CPE based EVPN. For exa= mple, a Controller (say RR) can send an update with Encapsulation SAFI to tw= o end points to trigger a tunnel establishment between them.=20 What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? Can we preserve it in draft-iet= f-idr-tunnel-encaps? =20 Thanks, Linda Dunbar =20 SAFI 7 was deprecated because no one seemed interested in using it, it crea= tes additional operational issues, there is no real need for it, and it was = discouraging folks from actually using the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute. = This is discussed briefly in section 1.2 of the draft. You can get a similar effect by using the technique described in section 7 = of the draft. If PE1 is the egress point of a tunnel, have PE1 originate an UPDATE whose = NLRI is PE1's loopback address. Put the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute (wit= h PE1 as remote endpoint) on this UPDATE. (The next hop field of this UPDAT= E doesn't really matter, as long as it is resolvable.) When PE1 originates = VPN routes, it sets the next hop to be its loopback address. Per section 7,= this will result in packets being sent to PE1 though the specified tunnel. =20 _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.o= rg https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr=20 _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr =20 --B_3613989824_2131015411 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Yes Robert, exactly and such I would question the = use of BGP (KitchenSinkProtocol) to do so in general

 

Cheers,

Jeff

 

<= div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in = 0in'>

From: = <rraszuk@gmail.com&= gt; on behalf of Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Mon= day, July 9, 2018 at 13:53
To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawe= i.com>
Cc: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, Eric = C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>, "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.or= g>, "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-idr-= tunnel-encaps@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up p= riority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ?

 

=

Hi Linda,

 

I think Jeff is asking why not to use well known co= mmunity to scope the blast radius of the advertisement. 

 

But perso= nally I think this is pretty weak protection - if this would be the only pro= tection against IPSec credential's hijack. IMO this needs to be protected a = bit stronger such that even leak of the update will cause no harm or VPN com= promise.

 

Thx,
R.

=  

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> 

On Mon, Jul 9= , 2018 at 10:50 PM, Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com> wrote:

Jeff,

 

The answer to your question = =E2=80=9CWhy would you want to build what you are trying to do into protoco= l?=E2=80=9D is

-        We want to use BGP to do more (i.e. use RR to d= istribute information injected from and by a controller). to eliminate dealing with the changes to NHRP/DSVPN. <= /o:p>

 

Can you elaborate the =E2=80=9Cthe existing technology= =E2=80=9D?

 

Linda

 

From: Jeff Tantsura [mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 09, 2018 3:35 PM


To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>; Eric C Rosen <<= a href=3D"mailto:erosen@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">erosen@juniper.net>= ;; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr= -tunnel-encaps@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up = priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ?

 

Linda,

 

You meant to say =E2=80=93 you=E2=80=99d use RR to = distribute information injected from and by a controller?

Re= flector (as the name suggests) reflects the routes, it doesn=E2=80=99t originates = them as part of the reflector functionality  (it for sure could as a BG= P speaker if such functionality is collocated with RR)

 = ;

Please read my initial questions, it looks like what you a= re trying to achieve could be done with the existing technology.<= /p>

Thanks!

 

Cheers,<= /p>

Jeff

 

From: Linda Dun= bar <linda.dunba= r@huawei.com>
Date: Monday, July 9, 2018 at 13:28
To:= Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>, "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-= encaps@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established = by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ?

 = ;

Jeff, =

 

We would like to use RR as controller to distribute more det= ailed tunnel information, such as IPsec configuration & keys because in = managed large scale Overlay deployment (SD-WAN), it doesn=E2=80=99t scale to allow= all CPEs to negotiate IPsec keys.

 

Linda

 

From: Jeff Tantsura [mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com]
Sent:= Monday, July 09, 2018 3:25 PM
To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>; = Eric C Rosen <erosen@= juniper.net>; idr@ietf.= org; draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Idr] P= ossible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-= encaps-09 ?

 

Hi Linda,

 

Why would you want to build what you are= trying to do into protocol?

#1 local policy

<= p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'= >#2  NO_ADVERTISE does that exactly

 <= /p>

Cheers,

Jeff

 

From: Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>= ;
Date: Monday, July 9, 2018 at 13:14
To: Eric C Rosen &= lt;erosen@juniper.net>, "idr@ietf.org&= quot; <idr@ietf.org>= , "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-enca= ps@ietf.org>
Subject: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for= Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ?<= /p>

 

Eri= c,

 

draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 discuss= ed ways to resolve conflicts of multiple UPDATE messages with Tunnel Encap a= ttributes.

 =

Is it possible to have followin= g capability?

-   =      Have a bit indic= ating a specific UPDATE is from authoritative source, therefore overwrite al= l other Tunnel Attributes for the Prefix X to avoid recursive next hop issue= s and tunnel selection at the receiving Router?

-        Have a bit indicating that a specific UPDATE only contain Tunnel attri= butes for the receiving Router, therefore can=E2=80=99t be forwarded? =

 

You said t= hat SAFI 7 is deprecated because no one seemed interested in using it. We ar= e very interested in using it because

- =        it c= an be easily distinguished from normal  BGP UPDATE

-         The receiving router doesn=E2=80=99t have to =E2=80=9CFilter=E2=80=9D the t= unnel attributes before forwarding to others.  

-        Can even be used for passing reconfigured IPsec keys to two ends o= f a tunnel.

 

Therefore we think SAFI 7 shou= ld be reserved.

 

Thanks, Linda Dunbar

 

From: Eric C Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July = 03, 2018 12:21 PM
To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@i= etf.org
Subject: Re: What are side effect for having Encap SAF= I? can draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 preserve trigger tunnel creation befo= re VPN is established?

 

On 7/2/2= 018 6:31 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote:

Eric, IDR group, <= /span>

 <= /p>

It is indicated that RF= C5512 is to be replaced by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps. But draft-ietf-idr-= tunnel-encaps-09 stated that it deprecates the

Encapsulation SAFI.

 

= We find the Encapsulation SAFI is quite useful f= or CPE based EVPN.  For example, a Controller (say RR) can send an upda= te with Encapsulation SAFI to two end points to trigger a tunnel establishme= nt between them.

What ar= e side effect for having Encap SAFI? Can we preserve it in draft-ietf-idr-tu= nnel-encaps?

 

Thanks, Linda Dunbar

 

=
SAFI 7 was deprecated because no one seemed interested in using it, it c= reates additional operational issues, there is no real need for it, and it w= as discouraging folks from actually using the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute= .  This is discussed briefly in section 1.2 of the draft.

You ca= n get a similar effect by using the technique described in section 7 of the = draft.

If PE1 is the egress point of a tunnel, have PE1 originate an = UPDATE whose NLRI is PE1's loopback address.  Put the Tunnel Encapsulat= ion attribute (with PE1 as remote endpoint) on this UPDATE.  (The next = hop field of this UPDATE doesn't really matter, as long as it is resolvable.= )  When PE1 originates VPN routes, it sets the next hop to be its loopb= ack address.  Per section 7, this will result in packets being sent to = PE1 though the specified tunnel.

 

______= _________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/= idr


_______________________________________________
Idr mailing li= st
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman= /listinfo/idr

&= nbsp;

--B_3613989824_2131015411-- From nobody Mon Jul 9 14:05:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2B35131088; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 14:05:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MTdRUnu7boLD; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 14:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7BB34130DF0; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 14:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 0A5D63B9E66B1; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:05:06 +0100 (IST) Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.38) by lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:05:07 +0100 Received: from SJCEML521-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.132]) by SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.236]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 14:05:03 -0700 From: Linda Dunbar To: Jeff Tantsura , Eric C Rosen , "idr@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? 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X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E0Gyftm1rheegEU+m5F8Fpi3ShjnsvsyqYEwDnWTFqlpkeplAo0 e24yAKOaFIrf/s9jx5tdvw8qSDSfsALZqNHuAeM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpdevy1DyLRJZ87p23zRtspGpwByBmMtPGl7RElc/25dolEwXJaHcGnETq/8LzFYO2Nn+uAyXlEgpXGp84QjkEQ= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:b583:: with SMTP id a3-v6mr17929259pls.243.1531170541769; Mon, 09 Jul 2018 14:09:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a17:90a:37e7:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 14:09:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <78D707C9-6DC2-459F-81E4-A53B46F1F019@gmail.com> <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A8BCC@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A8BEF@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 23:09:00 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4tEfoOREJFP4UFiAPanFk1fjaEw Message-ID: To: Jeff Tantsura Cc: Linda Dunbar , Eric C Rosen , "idr@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003b97830570976ccc" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 21:09:05 -0000 --0000000000003b97830570976ccc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Jeff, You know me saying lately that using BGP (aka KSP) is a bad idea if we use it to distribute p2p information. However here the information is really p2mp (provided common IPSec credentials are distributed to all CPEs) so it actually may make sense. Just started a side thread on this with a little idea how we could do that safely :) But if you have a suggestion to use some other protocol for it I am all ears ! Cheers, R On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 11:03 PM, Jeff Tantsura wrote: > Yes Robert, exactly and such I would question the use of BGP > (KitchenSinkProtocol) to do so in general > > > > Cheers, > > Jeff > > > > *From: * on behalf of Robert Raszuk > *Date: *Monday, July 9, 2018 at 13:53 > *To: *Linda Dunbar > *Cc: *Jeff Tantsura , Eric C Rosen < > erosen@juniper.net>, "idr@ietf.org" , " > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" ietf.org> > > *Subject: *Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established > by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? > > > > Hi Linda, > > > > I think Jeff is asking why not to use well known community to scope the > blast radius of the advertisement. > > > > But personally I think this is pretty weak protection - if this would be > the only protection against IPSec credential's hijack. IMO this needs to = be > protected a bit stronger such that even leak of the update will cause no > harm or VPN compromise. > > > > Thx, > R. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 10:50 PM, Linda Dunbar > wrote: > > Jeff, > > > > The answer to your question =E2=80=9CWhy would you want to build what you= are > trying to do into protocol?=E2=80=9D is > > - We want to use BGP to do more (i.e. use RR to distribute > information injected from and by a controller). to eliminate dealing with > the changes to NHRP/DSVPN. > > > > Can you elaborate the =E2=80=9Cthe existing technology=E2=80=9D? > > > > Linda > > --0000000000003b97830570976ccc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Jeff,

<= /div>
You know me saying lately that using BGP (aka KSP) = is a bad idea if we use it to distribute p2p information. However here the = information is really p2mp (provided common IPSec credentials are distribut= ed to all CPEs) so it actually may make sense.=C2=A0

Just started a side thread on this with a li= ttle idea how we could do that safely :)=C2=A0

=
But if you have a suggestion to use some other pro= tocol for it I am all ears !

Cheers,
R


On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 11:03 PM, Jeff Tantsura = <jefftant.i= etf@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes Robert, exactly and such I = would question the use of BGP (KitchenSinkProtocol) to do so in general<= /u>

=C2=A0

Cheers,

=

Jeff=

=C2=A0

From: <rraszuk@gmail.com> on behalf of Ro= bert Raszuk <robe= rt@raszuk.net>
Date: Monday, July 9, 2018 at 13:53
T= o: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
Cc: Jeff Tantsura <= ;jefftant.ietf= @gmail.com>, Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>, "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-idr-tun= nel-encaps@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ie= tf.org>


Subject: Re: [Id= r] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tu= nnel-encaps-09 ?

=C2=A0

Hi Linda,

=C2=A0

I think Jeff is asking why not to use well known community to scope the= blast radius of the advertisement.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

But personally I think this is pretty weak protection - if th= is would be the only protection against IPSec credential's hijack. IMO = this needs to be protected a bit stronger such that even leak of the update= will cause no harm or VPN compromise.

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0

Thx,
R.

=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

=C2= =A0

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 10:50 PM, = Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com> wrote:

Jeff,

=C2=A0

The answer to your question =E2= =80=9CWhy would you want to build what you are trying to do into pro= tocol?=E2=80=9D is

<= p class=3D"m_-5166219577338699169m5848266144591628402msolistparagraph">-= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 We want to use BGP to do more (i.e. use RR to distribute inform= ation injected from and by a controller). to = eliminate dealing with the changes to NHRP/DSVPN.

=

=C2=A0

Can you elabo= rate the =E2=80=9Cthe existing technology=E2=80=9D?

=C2=A0<= u>

Linda=

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X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 21:12:37 -0000 --000000000000dea8f205709778e8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Because the NO_ADVERTISE is about the property of the NLRI - entire BGP UPDATE MSG get's blocked while in section 10 it is about just dropping a single attribute which happened to be attached to a perhaps still valid UPDATE MSG. On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 11:05 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote: > Eric, > > > > Why not using =E2=80=9CNO_ADVERTISE=E2=80=9D in the Section 10 of > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09? > > > > > > Linda > > > > *From:* Jeff Tantsura [mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Monday, July 09, 2018 3:25 PM > *To:* Linda Dunbar ; Eric C Rosen < > erosen@juniper.net>; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established > by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? > > > > Hi Linda, > > > > Why would you want to build what you are trying to do into protocol? > > #1 local policy > > #2 NO_ADVERTISE does that exactly > > > > Cheers, > > Jeff > > > > *From: *Idr on behalf of Linda Dunbar < > linda.dunbar@huawei.com> > *Date: *Monday, July 9, 2018 at 13:14 > *To: *Eric C Rosen , "idr@ietf.org" , " > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" ietf.org> > *Subject: *[Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? > > > > Eric, > > > > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 discussed ways to resolve conflicts of > multiple UPDATE messages with Tunnel Encap attributes. > > > > Is it possible to have following capability? > > - Have a bit indicating a specific UPDATE is from authoritative > source, therefore overwrite all other Tunnel Attributes for the Prefix X = to > avoid recursive next hop issues and tunnel selection at the receiving > Router? > > - Have a bit indicating that a specific UPDATE only contain Tunnel > attributes for the receiving Router, therefore can=E2=80=99t be forwarded= ? > > > > You said that SAFI 7 is deprecated because no one seemed interested in > using it. We are very interested in using it because > > - it can be easily distinguished from normal BGP UPDATE > > - The receiving router doesn=E2=80=99t have to =E2=80=9CFilter=E2= =80=9D the tunnel > attributes before forwarding to others. > > - Can even be used for passing reconfigured IPsec keys to two ends > of a tunnel. > > > > Therefore we think SAFI 7 should be reserved. > > > > Thanks, Linda Dunbar > > > > *From:* Eric C Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net ] > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 03, 2018 12:21 PM > *To:* Linda Dunbar ; idr@ietf.org; > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? can > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 preserve trigger tunnel creation before > VPN is established? > > > > On 7/2/2018 6:31 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote: > > Eric, IDR group, > > > > It is indicated that RFC5512 is to be replaced by > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps. But draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 stated > that it deprecates the > > Encapsulation SAFI. > > > > We find the Encapsulation SAFI is quite useful for CPE based EVPN. For > example, a Controller (say RR) can send an update with Encapsulation SAFI > to two end points to trigger a tunnel establishment between them. > > What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? Can we preserve it in > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps? > > > > Thanks, Linda Dunbar > > > > > SAFI 7 was deprecated because no one seemed interested in using it, it > creates additional operational issues, there is no real need for it, and = it > was discouraging folks from actually using the Tunnel Encapsulation > attribute. This is discussed briefly in section 1.2 of the draft. > > You can get a similar effect by using the technique described in section = 7 > of the draft. > > If PE1 is the egress point of a tunnel, have PE1 originate an UPDATE whos= e > NLRI is PE1's loopback address. Put the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute > (with PE1 as remote endpoint) on this UPDATE. (The next hop field of thi= s > UPDATE doesn't really matter, as long as it is resolvable.) When PE1 > originates VPN routes, it sets the next hop to be its loopback address. > Per section 7, this will result in packets being sent to PE1 though the > specified tunnel. > > > > _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > --000000000000dea8f205709778e8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Because th= e NO_ADVERTISE is about the property of the NLRI - entire BGP UPDATE MSG ge= t's blocked while in section 10 it is about just dropping a single attr= ibute which happened to be attached to a perhaps still valid UPDATE MSG.



On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 11= :05 PM, Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com> wrote:<= br>

Eric,

=C2=A0

Why not using =E2=80= =9CNO_ADVERTISE=E2=80=9D in the Section 10 of draft-ietf-idr-tu= nnel-encaps-09?

<= span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Linda

=C2=A0

From:= Jeff Tantsura [mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2018 3:25 PM
To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>; Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>; idr@ietf.org; draft-i= etf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels es= tablished by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ?

=C2=A0

Hi Linda,=

=C2=A0

Why would you want = to build what you are trying to do into protocol?

#1 local policy<= /u>

#2 =C2=A0NO_ADVERTI= SE does that exactly

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Jeff<= /span>

=C2=A0

From: Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Linda Du= nbar <linda= .dunbar@huawei.com>
Date: Monday, July 9, 2018 at 13:14
To: Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>, "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encap= s@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org>
Subject: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established b= y draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ?

=C2=A0

Eric,

=C2=A0

draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-= encaps-09 discussed ways to resolve conflicts of multiple UPDATE messa= ges with Tunnel Encap attributes.

=C2=A0

Is it possible to have= following capability?

-=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Have a bit indicating a = specific UPDATE is from authoritative source, therefore overwrite all other= Tunnel Attributes for the Prefix X to avoid recursive next hop issues and = tunnel selection at the receiving Router?

-=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Have a bit indicating th= at a specific UPDATE only contain Tunnel attributes for the receiving Route= r, therefore can=E2=80=99t be forwarded?

=C2=A0

You said that SAFI 7 i= s deprecated because no one seemed interested in using it. We are very inte= rested in using it because

-=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 it can be easily disting= uished from normal =C2=A0BGP UPDATE

-=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0The receiving rout= er doesn=E2=80=99t have to =E2=80=9CFilter=E2=80=9D the tunnel attributes b= efore forwarding to others. =C2=A0

-=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Can even be used for pas= sing reconfigured IPsec keys to two ends of a tunnel.

=C2=A0

Therefore we think SAF= I 7 should be reserved.

=C2=A0

Thanks, Linda Dunbar

=C2=A0

From:= Eric C Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2018 12:21 PM
To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org
Subject: Re: What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? can draft-i= etf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 preserve trigger tunnel creation before VPN i= s established?

=C2=A0

On 7/2/2018 6:31 PM, = Linda Dunbar wrote:

Eric, IDR group,

=C2=A0

It is indicated that RFC5512 is to be replaced by draft-ietf-idr-tu= nnel-encaps. But draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 stated that it deprecates the

Encapsulation SAFI.

=C2=A0

We find the Encapsulat= ion SAFI is quite useful for CPE based EVPN.=C2=A0 For example, a Controlle= r (say RR) can send an update with Encapsulation SAFI to two end points to = trigger a tunnel establishment between them.

What are side effect f= or having Encap SAFI? Can we preserve it in draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps?

=C2=A0

Thanks, Linda Dunbar

=C2=A0


SAFI 7 was deprecated because no one seemed interested in using it, it crea= tes additional operational issues, there is no real need for it, and it was= discouraging folks from actually using the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute.= =C2=A0 This is discussed briefly in section 1.2 of the draft.

You can get a similar effect by using the technique described in section 7 = of the draft.

If PE1 is the egress point of a tunnel, have PE1 originate an UPDATE whose = NLRI is PE1's loopback address.=C2=A0 Put the Tunnel Encapsulation attr= ibute (with PE1 as remote endpoint) on this UPDATE.=C2=A0 (The next hop fie= ld of this UPDATE doesn't really matter, as long as it is resolvable.)=C2=A0 When PE1 originates VPN routes, it sets the ne= xt hop to be its loopback address.=C2=A0 Per section 7, this will result in= packets being sent to PE1 though the specified tunnel.

=C2=A0

___________________= ____________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr


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Thread-Index: AQHUF8Lgg98GKrWUM0K+AXHY1KGfxqSHVzSAgAAB3gCAAAQ7AIAAAPgAgAAF4uE= Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 21:14:35 +0000 Message-ID: <3F4185C0-BD2F-46E0-AB6C-89F40B52AE80@arrcus.com> References: <78D707C9-6DC2-459F-81E4-A53B46F1F019@gmail.com> <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A8BCC@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A8BEF@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=keyur@arrcus.com; x-originating-ip: [201.202.103.134] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BY2PR18MB0198; 7:UTCzGYTHIKlyjz7Iq8MlNGbjpddw0VdXAkezb52rjglkz0gsKYy6mpqBA4MDi4YHeFl9EiB+TRZEuFfk9piIl2VikCKUmSQi9A0TRZzYBD1XhyJoLFzMm1v6T5zdlm9ZEnLUla/OX9YDkO9lDpryRZERB2q7jAdM93InqTjXRQN9Q8V2iwV23aAEbzUvPG9ZMKFtQeL/gbuhTnLntoi/RutqLQSmK99Toa9/ootBFDpbk5jzekBBHuy0TKu/nLNs x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: bfd0ebd5-73d7-423f-c469-08d5e5e0f94e x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(7020095)(4652040)(7021125)(8989117)(5600053)(711020)(4534165)(7022125)(4603075)(4627221)(201702281549075)(8990107)(7048125)(7024125)(7027125)(7028125)(7023125)(2017052603328)(7153060)(7193020); SRVR:BY2PR18MB0198; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BY2PR18MB0198: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(50582790962513)(85827821059158)(138986009662008); x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(6040522)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(93006095)(93001095)(3002001)(10201501046)(3231311)(944501410)(52105095)(149027)(150027)(6041310)(20161123560045)(20161123562045)(2016111802025)(20161123564045)(20161123558120)(6072148)(6043046)(201708071742011)(7699016); SRVR:BY2PR18MB0198; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BY2PR18MB0198; x-forefront-prvs: 07283408BE x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(396003)(39830400003)(136003)(366004)(376002)(346002)(21124004)(189003)(199004)(33656002)(68736007)(66066001)(102836004)(316002)(476003)(53546011)(478600001)(2900100001)(14454004)(606006)(966005)(36756003)(54896002)(446003)(186003)(486006)(6506007)(6246003)(6436002)(105586002)(11346002)(236005)(2616005)(6306002)(6512007)(53936002)(106356001)(5660300001)(6916009)(97736004)(83716003)(82746002)(14444005)(93886005)(25786009)(6486002)(4326008)(39060400002)(256004)(7736002)(5250100002)(99286004)(26005)(8676002)(81166006)(81156014)(8936002)(2906002)(3846002)(6116002)(76176011)(54906003)(86362001)(229853002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BY2PR18MB0198; H:BY2PR18MB0328.namprd18.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: arrcus.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: e6XPumNfjeSdylICh42VLhZG/RflcjbV4SMbBmzn8ctVlEyeyZCwIccO33hTvoxmG7SC1Pv/X9gz6dtjOTfv1ROceMgb9HGbflk5wFc6mCwb1rq1jZGHktOF2Ipo4Zm7Cw/n4aTT9xPj1F1o9ZC9AxGBZ6RGjHAfVR2RbUzBxW6X4mcrYXUdollK0bYNLPhOiEVTXopULCYT94wzBDzZlaQ+ZvRBQ7VOhTVHfzsgNMK4csZefG0ACQrlhP0j8QDeIpTZ1b0TJ+3i/3/lFbkERsy9K0XejRuqP1lSyMJs8flIGF6Z6TT8Bz08ImXNx1O8ZL47JmDpl91Znh7dBWVN3blKXRvUAZn7xjZhBdHfbZY= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3F4185C0BD2F46E0AB6C89F40B52AE80arrcuscom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: arrcus.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: bfd0ebd5-73d7-423f-c469-08d5e5e0f94e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Jul 2018 21:14:35.9354 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 697b3529-5c2b-40cf-a019-193eb78f6820 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY2PR18MB0198 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? 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14:20:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF7A7130E67; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 14:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id E765CB06B11E5; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:20:14 +0100 (IST) Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.39) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:20:16 +0100 Received: from SJCEML521-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.132]) by SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.100]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 14:20:13 -0700 From: Linda Dunbar To: Robert Raszuk CC: Jeff Tantsura , Eric C Rosen , "idr@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? Thread-Index: AQHUF8Lt5oAKKlZ+BUmHgmLAUQBnVKSHYGDggAB4jAD//4v4EA== Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 21:20:12 +0000 Message-ID: <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A8C93@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: <78D707C9-6DC2-459F-81E4-A53B46F1F019@gmail.com> <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A8C39@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.153.102] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A8C93sjceml521mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 21:20:23 -0000 --_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A8C93sjceml521mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 VGhhdCBpcyBvbmUgb2YgdGhlIG1haW4gcmVhc29uIHdlIHRoaW5rIGl0IGlzIGJldHRlciB0byBo YXZlIGEgZGVkaWNhdGVkIG1lc3NhZ2UgdG8gcGFzcyDigJxUdW5uZWwgRW5jYXAgYXR0cmlidXRl c+KAnSBpbnN0ZWFkIG9mIGFwcGVuZGVkIHRvIHRoZSBCR1AgdXBkYXRlIG1lc3NhZ2UuDQpJdCBp cyBzbyBtdWNoIGVhc2llciBmb3IgQ1BFcyB0byBwcm9jZXNzIGFuIEluZGVwZW5kZW50IOKAnHR1 bm5lbCBhdHRyaWJ1dGXigJ0gaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gaW5zdGVhZCBvZiBmaWx0ZXJpbmcgb3V0IHdo aWNoIGZpZWxkIGNhbi9jYW7igJl0IGJlIGRpc3RyaWJ1dGUgdG8gb3RoZXJzLg0KDQpMaW5kYQ0K DQpGcm9tOiBycmFzenVrQGdtYWlsLmNvbSBbbWFpbHRvOnJyYXN6dWtAZ21haWwuY29tXSBPbiBC ZWhhbGYgT2YgUm9iZXJ0IFJhc3p1aw0KU2VudDogTW9uZGF5LCBKdWx5IDA5LCAyMDE4IDQ6MTMg 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"idr@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000b11d2057097b5b9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 21:29:27 -0000 --0000000000000b11d2057097b5b9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IMO both are needed. The original drivers for tunnel encapsulation attribute clearly proved that new SAFI is an excessive thing. Please note that in any SAFI you can easily craft independent BGP MSG without need for separate AFI/SAFI type. Said this however for the SD-WAN application we are discussing here I would be actually in favor of separating it from any other BGP use by dedicating a new AFI/SAFI for it. Thx, R. On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 11:20 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote: > That is one of the main reason we think it is better to have a dedicated > message to pass =E2=80=9CTunnel Encap attributes=E2=80=9D instead of appe= nded to the BGP > update message. > > It is so much easier for CPEs to process an Independent =E2=80=9Ctunnel a= ttribute=E2=80=9D > information instead of filtering out which field can/can=E2=80=99t be dis= tribute to > others. > > > > Linda > > > > *From:* rraszuk@gmail.com [mailto:rraszuk@gmail.com] *On Behalf Of *Rober= t > Raszuk > *Sent:* Monday, July 09, 2018 4:13 PM > *To:* Linda Dunbar > *Cc:* Jeff Tantsura ; Eric C Rosen < > erosen@juniper.net>; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org > > *Subject:* Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established > by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? > > > > > > Because the NO_ADVERTISE is about the property of the NLRI - entire BGP > UPDATE MSG get's blocked while in section 10 it is about just dropping a > single attribute which happened to be attached to a perhaps still valid > UPDATE MSG. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 11:05 PM, Linda Dunbar > wrote: > > Eric, > > > > Why not using =E2=80=9CNO_ADVERTISE=E2=80=9D in the Section 10 of > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09? > > > > > > Linda > > > > *From:* Jeff Tantsura [mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Monday, July 09, 2018 3:25 PM > *To:* Linda Dunbar ; Eric C Rosen < > erosen@juniper.net>; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established > by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? > > > > Hi Linda, > > > > Why would you want to build what you are trying to do into protocol? > > #1 local policy > > #2 NO_ADVERTISE does that exactly > > > > Cheers, > > Jeff > > > > *From: *Idr on behalf of Linda Dunbar < > linda.dunbar@huawei.com> > *Date: *Monday, July 9, 2018 at 13:14 > *To: *Eric C Rosen , "idr@ietf.org" , " > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" ietf.org> > *Subject: *[Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? > > > > Eric, > > > > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 discussed ways to resolve conflicts of > multiple UPDATE messages with Tunnel Encap attributes. > > > > Is it possible to have following capability? > > - Have a bit indicating a specific UPDATE is from authoritative > source, therefore overwrite all other Tunnel Attributes for the Prefix X = to > avoid recursive next hop issues and tunnel selection at the receiving > Router? > > - Have a bit indicating that a specific UPDATE only contain Tunnel > attributes for the receiving Router, therefore can=E2=80=99t be forwarded= ? > > > > You said that SAFI 7 is deprecated because no one seemed interested in > using it. We are very interested in using it because > > - it can be easily distinguished from normal BGP UPDATE > > - The receiving router doesn=E2=80=99t have to =E2=80=9CFilter=E2= =80=9D the tunnel > attributes before forwarding to others. > > - Can even be used for passing reconfigured IPsec keys to two ends > of a tunnel. > > > > Therefore we think SAFI 7 should be reserved. > > > > Thanks, Linda Dunbar > > > > *From:* Eric C Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net ] > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 03, 2018 12:21 PM > *To:* Linda Dunbar ; idr@ietf.org; > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? can > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 preserve trigger tunnel creation before > VPN is established? > > > > On 7/2/2018 6:31 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote: > > Eric, IDR group, > > > > It is indicated that RFC5512 is to be replaced by > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps. But draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 stated > that it deprecates the > > Encapsulation SAFI. > > > > We find the Encapsulation SAFI is quite useful for CPE based EVPN. For > example, a Controller (say RR) can send an update with Encapsulation SAFI > to two end points to trigger a tunnel establishment between them. > > What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? Can we preserve it in > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps? > > > > Thanks, Linda Dunbar > > > > > SAFI 7 was deprecated because no one seemed interested in using it, it > creates additional operational issues, there is no real need for it, and = it > was discouraging folks from actually using the Tunnel Encapsulation > attribute. This is discussed briefly in section 1.2 of the draft. > > You can get a similar effect by using the technique described in section = 7 > of the draft. > > If PE1 is the egress point of a tunnel, have PE1 originate an UPDATE whos= e > NLRI is PE1's loopback address. Put the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute > (with PE1 as remote endpoint) on this UPDATE. (The next hop field of thi= s > UPDATE doesn't really matter, as long as it is resolvable.) When PE1 > originates VPN routes, it sets the next hop to be its loopback address. > Per section 7, this will result in packets being sent to PE1 though the > specified tunnel. > > > > _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > --0000000000000b11d2057097b5b9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
IMO both are needed.=C2=A0

The original drivers for tunnel en= capsulation attribute clearly proved that new SAFI is an excessive thing. P= lease note that in any SAFI you can easily craft independent BGP MSG withou= t need for separate AFI/SAFI type.=C2=A0

=
Said this however for the SD-WAN application we are disc= ussing here I would be actually in favor of separating it from any other BG= P use by dedicating a new AFI/SAFI for it.=C2=A0
Thx,
R.

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 11:20 PM, Linda Dunb= ar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com> wrote:

That is one of the main reason we thi= nk it is better to have a dedicated message to pass =E2=80=9CTunnel Encap a= ttributes=E2=80=9D instead of appended to the BGP update message.

It is so much easier for CPEs to proc= ess an Independent =E2=80=9Ctunnel attribute=E2=80=9D information instead o= f filtering out which field can/can=E2=80=99t be distribute to others.

=C2=A0

Linda

<= span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;c= olor:#1f497d">=C2=A0

From: rraszuk@gmail.com [mailto:rraszuk@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2018 4:13 PM
To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
Cc: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>; <= a href=3D"mailto:idr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">idr@ietf.org; draft-i= etf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels establish= ed by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Because the NO_ADVERTISE is about the property of the NLRI - entire BG= P UPDATE MSG get's blocked while in section 10 it is about just droppin= g a single attribute which happened to be attached to a perhaps still valid UPDATE MSG.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 11:05 PM, Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@hua= wei.com> wrote:

Eric,

=C2=A0

Why not using =E2=80= =9CNO_ADVERTISE=E2=80=9D in the Section 10 of draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-en= caps-09?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Linda=

=C2=A0

From: Jeff Tantsura [mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2018 3:25 PM
To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>; Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels establish= ed by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ?

=C2=A0

Hi Linda,

=C2=A0

Why would you want to build what you are trying to d= o into protocol?

#1 local policy

#2 =C2=A0NO_ADVERTISE does that exactly

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Jeff

=C2=A0

From: Idr <idr-b= ounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
Date: Monday, July 9, 2018 at 13:14
To: Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>, "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encap= s@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org>
Subject: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established b= y draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ?

=C2=A0

Eric,

=C2=A0

draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-= encaps-09 discussed ways to resolve conflicts of multiple UPDATE messa= ges with Tunnel Encap attributes.

=C2=A0

Is it possible to have= following capability?

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= Have a bit indicating a specific UPDA= TE is from authoritative source, therefore overwrite all other Tunnel Attri= butes for the Prefix X to avoid recursive next hop issues and tunnel select= ion at the receiving Router?

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= Have a bit indicating that a specific= UPDATE only contain Tunnel attributes for the receiving Router, therefore = can=E2=80=99t be forwarded?

=C2=A0

You said that SAFI 7 i= s deprecated because no one seemed interested in using it. We are very inte= rested in using it because

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= it can be easily distinguished from n= ormal =C2=A0BGP UPDATE

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0The receiving router doesn=E2= =80=99t have to =E2=80=9CFilter=E2=80=9D the tunnel attributes before forwa= rding to others. =C2=A0

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= Can even be used for passing reconfig= ured IPsec keys to two ends of a tunnel.

=C2=A0

Therefore we think SAF= I 7 should be reserved.

=C2=A0

Thanks, Linda Dunbar

=C2=A0

From: Eric C Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2018 12:21 PM
To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org
Subject: Re: What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? can draft-i= etf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 preserve trigger tunnel creation before VPN i= s established?

=C2=A0

On 7/2/2018 6:31 PM, = Linda Dunbar wrote:

Eric, IDR group,

=C2=A0

It is indicated that RFC5512 is to be replace= d by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps. But draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09= stated that it deprecates the<= /span>

Encapsulation SAFI.

=C2=A0

We find the Encapsulat= ion SAFI is quite useful for CPE based EVPN.=C2=A0 For example, a Controlle= r (say RR) can send an update with Encapsulation SAFI to two end points to trigger a tunnel establishment between them. <= /u>

What are side effect f= or having Encap SAFI? Can we preserve it in draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps?

=C2=A0

Thanks, Linda Dunbar

=C2=A0


SAFI 7 was deprecated because no one seemed interested in using it, it crea= tes additional operational issues, there is no real need for it, and it was= discouraging folks from actually using the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute.= =C2=A0 This is discussed briefly in section 1.2 of the draft.

You can get a similar effect by using the technique described in section 7 = of the draft.

If PE1 is the egress point of a tunnel, have PE1 originate an UPDATE whose = NLRI is PE1's loopback address.=C2=A0 Put the Tunnel Encapsulation attr= ibute (with PE1 as remote endpoint) on this UPDATE.=C2=A0 (The next hop fie= ld of this UPDATE doesn't really matter, as long as it is resolvable.)=C2=A0 When PE1 originates VPN routes, it sets the ne= xt hop to be its loopback address.=C2=A0 Per section 7, this will result in= packets being sent to PE1 though the specified tunnel.

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________= Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr


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=C2=A0


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Idr@ietf.org
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--0000000000000b11d2057097b5b9-- From nobody Mon Jul 9 14:34:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA345130E67; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 14:34:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W0BkAyhkKy2F; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 14:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B4CC13107A; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 14:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 2ACA5C49DD9C6; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:34:42 +0100 (IST) Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.39) by lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:34:43 +0100 Received: from SJCEML521-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.132]) by SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.100]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 14:34:37 -0700 From: Linda Dunbar To: Robert Raszuk CC: "idr@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? Thread-Index: AQHUF8Lt5oAKKlZ+BUmHgmLAUQBnVKSHYGDggAB4jAD//4v4EIAAeLwA//+LaDA= Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 21:34:35 +0000 Message-ID: <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A8CB1@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: <78D707C9-6DC2-459F-81E4-A53B46F1F019@gmail.com> <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A8C39@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A8C93@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.153.102] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A8CB1sjceml521mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 21:34:49 -0000 --_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A8CB1sjceml521mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 VGhhbmtzIFJvYmVydOKAmXMgc3VnZ2VzdGluZyBvZiBoYXZpbmcgYSBuZXcgQVJJL1NBRkkgZm9y IFNELVdBTi4NCg0KQW4gaW5kZXBlbmRlbnQgU0FGSSBmb3IgU0QtV0FOIHdvdWxkIG1ha2Ugb3Vy IGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9uIGVhc2llci4gSW4gYWRkaXRpb24gaW4gU0QtV0FOIGRlcGxveW1lbnQg dGhlIFJSIGFuZCBDUEUgbWlnaHQgYmUgY29ubmVjdGVkIGJ5IFRMUy9EVExTLg0KDQpMaW5kYQ0K DQpGcm9tOiBycmFzenVrQGdtYWlsLmNvbSBbbWFpbHRvOnJyYXN6dWtAZ21haWwuY29tXSBPbiBC ZWhhbGYgT2YgUm9iZXJ0IFJhc3p1aw0KU2VudDogTW9uZGF5LCBKdWx5IDA5LCAyMDE4IDQ6Mjkg UE0NClRvOiBMaW5kYSBEdW5iYXIgPGxpbmRhLmR1bmJhckBodWF3ZWkuY29tPg0KQ2M6IGlkckBp ZXRmLm9yZzsgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1pZHItdHVubmVsLWVuY2Fwc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KU3ViamVjdDog 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In-Reply-To: <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A8CB1@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: <78D707C9-6DC2-459F-81E4-A53B46F1F019@gmail.com> <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A8C39@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A8C93@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A8CB1@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 23:43:44 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Y3QC4w_3TyRA8sQOn_a0Y_-l3tM Message-ID: To: Linda Dunbar Cc: "idr@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000069ba08057097e8bd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 21:43:49 -0000 --00000000000069ba08057097e8bd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Linda, In addition to your comment what needs to also be highlighted in bold is that new SAFI will help the co-existence with number of existing SD-WAN deployments. Loading currently deployed controllers with any of the existing unicast SAFIs no matter how well filtered will not be a great idea operationally. The point about missing DTLS has been communicated to Eric the same day his and Ron's draft got posted. It was accepted well :). Best, R. On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 11:34 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote: > Thanks Robert=E2=80=99s suggesting of having a new ARI/SAFI for SD-WAN. > > > > An independent SAFI for SD-WAN would make our implementation easier. In > addition in SD-WAN deployment the RR and CPE might be connected by > TLS/DTLS. > > > > Linda > > > > *From:* rraszuk@gmail.com [mailto:rraszuk@gmail.com] *On Behalf Of *Rober= t > Raszuk > *Sent:* Monday, July 09, 2018 4:29 PM > *To:* Linda Dunbar > *Cc:* idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org > > *Subject:* Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established > by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? > > > > IMO both are needed. > > > > The original drivers for tunnel encapsulation attribute clearly proved > that new SAFI is an excessive thing. Please note that in any SAFI you can > easily craft independent BGP MSG without need for separate AFI/SAFI type. > > > > Said this however for the SD-WAN application we are discussing here I > would be actually in favor of separating it from any other BGP use by > dedicating a new AFI/SAFI for it. > > > > Thx, > R. > > > > On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 11:20 PM, Linda Dunbar > wrote: > > That is one of the main reason we think it is better to have a dedicated > message to pass =E2=80=9CTunnel Encap attributes=E2=80=9D instead of appe= nded to the BGP > update message. > > It is so much easier for CPEs to process an Independent =E2=80=9Ctunnel a= ttribute=E2=80=9D > information instead of filtering out which field can/can=E2=80=99t be dis= tribute to > others. > > > > Linda > > > > *From:* rraszuk@gmail.com [mailto:rraszuk@gmail.com] *On Behalf Of *Rober= t > Raszuk > *Sent:* Monday, July 09, 2018 4:13 PM > *To:* Linda Dunbar > *Cc:* Jeff Tantsura ; Eric C Rosen < > erosen@juniper.net>; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org > > > *Subject:* Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established > by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? > > > > > > Because the NO_ADVERTISE is about the property of the NLRI - entire BGP > UPDATE MSG get's blocked while in section 10 it is about just dropping a > single attribute which happened to be attached to a perhaps still valid > UPDATE MSG. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 11:05 PM, Linda Dunbar > wrote: > > Eric, > > > > Why not using =E2=80=9CNO_ADVERTISE=E2=80=9D in the Section 10 of > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09? > > > > > > Linda > > > > *From:* Jeff Tantsura [mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Monday, July 09, 2018 3:25 PM > *To:* Linda Dunbar ; Eric C Rosen < > erosen@juniper.net>; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established > by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? > > > > Hi Linda, > > > > Why would you want to build what you are trying to do into protocol? > > #1 local policy > > #2 NO_ADVERTISE does that exactly > > > > Cheers, > > Jeff > > > > *From: *Idr on behalf of Linda Dunbar < > linda.dunbar@huawei.com> > *Date: *Monday, July 9, 2018 at 13:14 > *To: *Eric C Rosen , "idr@ietf.org" , " > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" ietf.org> > *Subject: *[Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? > > > > Eric, > > > > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 discussed ways to resolve conflicts of > multiple UPDATE messages with Tunnel Encap attributes. > > > > Is it possible to have following capability? > > - Have a bit indicating a specific UPDATE is from authoritative > source, therefore overwrite all other Tunnel Attributes for the Prefix X = to > avoid recursive next hop issues and tunnel selection at the receiving > Router? > > - Have a bit indicating that a specific UPDATE only contain Tunnel > attributes for the receiving Router, therefore can=E2=80=99t be forwarded= ? > > > > You said that SAFI 7 is deprecated because no one seemed interested in > using it. We are very interested in using it because > > - it can be easily distinguished from normal BGP UPDATE > > - The receiving router doesn=E2=80=99t have to =E2=80=9CFilter=E2= =80=9D the tunnel > attributes before forwarding to others. > > - Can even be used for passing reconfigured IPsec keys to two ends > of a tunnel. > > > > Therefore we think SAFI 7 should be reserved. > > > > Thanks, Linda Dunbar > > > > *From:* Eric C Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net ] > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 03, 2018 12:21 PM > *To:* Linda Dunbar ; idr@ietf.org; > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? can > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 preserve trigger tunnel creation before > VPN is established? > > > > On 7/2/2018 6:31 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote: > > Eric, IDR group, > > > > It is indicated that RFC5512 is to be replaced by > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps. But draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 stated > that it deprecates the > > Encapsulation SAFI. > > > > We find the Encapsulation SAFI is quite useful for CPE based EVPN. For > example, a Controller (say RR) can send an update with Encapsulation SAFI > to two end points to trigger a tunnel establishment between them. > > What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? Can we preserve it in > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps? > > > > Thanks, Linda Dunbar > > > > > SAFI 7 was deprecated because no one seemed interested in using it, it > creates additional operational issues, there is no real need for it, and = it > was discouraging folks from actually using the Tunnel Encapsulation > attribute. This is discussed briefly in section 1.2 of the draft. > > You can get a similar effect by using the technique described in section = 7 > of the draft. > > If PE1 is the egress point of a tunnel, have PE1 originate an UPDATE whos= e > NLRI is PE1's loopback address. Put the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute > (with PE1 as remote endpoint) on this UPDATE. (The next hop field of thi= s > UPDATE doesn't really matter, as long as it is resolvable.) When PE1 > originates VPN routes, it sets the next hop to be its loopback address. > Per section 7, this will result in packets being sent to PE1 though the > specified tunnel. > > > > _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > > --00000000000069ba08057097e8bd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Linda,

<= /div>
In addition to your comment what needs to also be h= ighlighted in bold is that new SAFI will help the co-existence with number = of existing SD-WAN deployments. Loading currently deployed controllers with= any of the existing unicast SAFIs no matter how well filtered will not be = a great idea operationally.=C2=A0

The point about missing DTLS has been communicated to Eric th= e same day his and Ron's draft got posted. It was accepted well :).=C2= =A0

Best,
R.
<= /div>

On Mon, Jul = 9, 2018 at 11:34 PM, Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com> wrote:

Thanks Robert=E2=80=99s suggesting of= having a new ARI/SAFI for SD-WAN.

=C2=A0

An independent SAFI for SD-WAN would = make our implementation easier. In addition in SD-WAN deployment the RR and= CPE might be connected by TLS/DTLS.

=C2=A0

Linda

<= span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;c= olor:#1f497d">=C2=A0

From: rraszuk@gmail.com [mailto:rraszuk@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2018 4:29 PM
To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
Cc: idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org


Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels establish= ed by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ?

=C2=A0

IMO both are needed.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The original drivers for tunnel encapsulation attribute clearly proved= that new SAFI is an excessive thing. Please note that in any SAFI you can = easily craft independent BGP MSG without need for separate AFI/SAFI type.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Said this however for the SD-WAN application we are discussing here I = would be actually in favor of separating it from any other BGP use by dedic= ating a new AFI/SAFI for it.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thx,
R.

=C2=A0

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 11:20 PM, Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@hua= wei.com> wrote:

That is one of the main reason we thi= nk it is better to have a dedicated message to pass =E2=80=9CTunnel Encap attributes=E2=80=9D instead of appended to the BGP update message. =

It is so much easier for CPEs to proc= ess an Independent =E2=80=9Ctunnel attribute=E2=80=9D information instead o= f filtering out which field can/can=E2=80=99t be distribute to others. <= u>

=C2=A0

Linda

=C2=A0

From: rraszuk@gmail.com [mailto:rraszuk@gm= ail.com] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2018 4:13 PM
To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
Cc: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org


Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels establish= ed by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Because the NO_ADVERTISE is about the property of the NLRI - entire BG= P UPDATE MSG get's blocked while in section 10 it is about just dropping a single attribute which happened to be attached to a perhaps sti= ll valid UPDATE MSG.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 11:05 PM, Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@hua= wei.com> wrote:

Eric,

=C2=A0

Why not using =E2=80= =9CNO_ADVERTISE=E2=80=9D in the Section 10 of draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-en= caps-09?

=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0

Linda=

=C2=A0

From: Jeff Tantsura [mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2018 3:25 PM
To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>; Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels establish= ed by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ?

=C2=A0

Hi Linda,

=C2=A0

Why would you want to build what you are trying to d= o into protocol?

#1 local policy

#2 =C2=A0NO_ADVERTISE does that exactly

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Jeff

=C2=A0

From: Idr <idr-b= ounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>
Date: Monday, July 9, 2018 at 13:14
To: Eric C Rosen <erosen@juniper.net>, "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encap= s@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org>
Subject: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established b= y draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ?

=C2=A0

Eric,

=C2=A0

draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-= encaps-09 discussed ways to resolve conflicts of multiple UPDATE messa= ges with Tunnel Encap attributes.

=C2=A0

Is it possible to have= following capability?

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= Have a bit indicating a specific UPDA= TE is from authoritative source, therefore overwrite all other Tunnel Attri= butes for the Prefix X to avoid recursive next hop issues and tunnel select= ion at the receiving Router?

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= Have a bit indicating that a specific= UPDATE only contain Tunnel attributes for the receiving Router, therefore = can=E2=80=99t be forwarded?

=C2=A0

You said that SAFI 7 i= s deprecated because no one seemed interested in using it. We are very inte= rested in using it because

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= it can be easily distinguished from n= ormal =C2=A0BGP UPDATE

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0The receiving router doesn=E2= =80=99t have to =E2=80=9CFilter=E2=80=9D the tunnel attributes before forwa= rding to others. =C2=A0

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= Can even be used for passing reconfig= ured IPsec keys to two ends of a tunnel.

=C2=A0

Therefore we think SAF= I 7 should be reserved.

=C2=A0

Thanks, Linda Dunbar

=C2=A0

From: Eric C Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2018 12:21 PM
To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org
Subject: Re: What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? can draft-i= etf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 preserve trigger tunnel creation before VPN i= s established?

=C2=A0

On 7/2/2018 6:31 PM, = Linda Dunbar wrote:

Eric, IDR group,

=C2=A0

It is indicated that RFC5512 is to be replace= d by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps. But draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09= stated that it deprecates the<= /span>

Encapsulation SAFI.

=C2=A0

We find the Encapsulat= ion SAFI is quite useful for CPE based EVPN.=C2=A0 For example, a Controlle= r (say RR) can send an update with Encapsulation SAFI to two end points to trigger a tunnel establishment between them. <= /u>

What are side effect f= or having Encap SAFI? Can we preserve it in draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps?

=C2=A0

Thanks, Linda Dunbar

=C2=A0


SAFI 7 was deprecated because no one seemed interested in using it, it crea= tes additional operational issues, there is no real need for it, and it was= discouraging folks from actually using the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute.= =C2=A0 This is discussed briefly in section 1.2 of the draft.

You can get a similar effect by using the technique described in section 7 = of the draft.

If PE1 is the egress point of a tunnel, have PE1 originate an UPDATE whose = NLRI is PE1's loopback address.=C2=A0 Put the Tunnel Encapsulation attr= ibute (with PE1 as remote endpoint) on this UPDATE.=C2=A0 (The next hop fie= ld of this UPDATE doesn't really matter, as long as it is resolvable.)=C2=A0 When PE1 originates VPN routes, it sets the ne= xt hop to be its loopback address.=C2=A0 Per section 7, this will result in= packets being sent to PE1 though the specified tunnel.

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________= Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr


_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

=C2=A0


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X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:13:33 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------80F6F99B07E14A813365BAF6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/9/2018 4:28 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote: > We would like to use RR as controller to distribute more detailed > tunnel information, such as IPsec configuration & keys because in > managed large scale Overlay deployment (SD-WAN), it doesn’t scale to > allow all CPEs to negotiate IPsec keys. When first working on RFC 5566, I proposed a number of sub-TLVs that could be used to convey information about how to set up the IPsec Security Associations.  None of thes survived review by the security experts.  Setting up the Security Associations is the job of IKEv2. If you want to replace IKEv2 with BGP, you'll need a thorough security analysis of your proposed mechanism. One might think it is okay to have BGP UPDATEs carry secret keys , as long as the UPDATEs only travel on sessions that are protected by IPsec.  I wouldn't necessarily assume that, as BGP UPDATEs have been known to leak (intentionally or unintentionally) beyond their intended scope. --------------80F6F99B07E14A813365BAF6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/9/2018 4:28 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote:
We would like to use RR as controller to distribute more detailed tunnel information, such as IPsec configuration & keys because in managed large scale Overlay deployment (SD-WAN), it doesn’t scale to allow all CPEs to negotiate IPsec keys.

When first working on RFC 5566, I proposed a number of sub-TLVs that could be used to convey information about how to set up the IPsec Security Associations.  None of thes survived review by the security experts.  Setting up the Security Associations is the job of IKEv2.  If you want to replace IKEv2 with BGP, you'll need a thorough security analysis of your proposed mechanism.

One might think it is okay to have BGP UPDATEs carry secret keys , as long as the UPDATEs only travel on sessions that are protected by IPsec.  I wouldn't necessarily assume that, as BGP UPDATEs have been known to leak (intentionally or unintentionally) beyond their intended scope.


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X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:24:53 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6DB56E613AA3F7ABC0B37652 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If you want a controller to use BGP to convey instructions for a particular node, there is a draft that does something very similar: draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy.  That draft defines a new AFI/SAFI for conveying segment routing te policies, and the policies are encoded as Tunnel Encapsulation attributes.  That draft does require the use of the NO_ADVERTISE community when an UPDATE is a command targeted to a single router.  The draft also allows the use of Route Targets to cover the case where a given  command is targeted to a set of routers, as well as the case where the targeted router is separated from the controller by a RR or ASBR.  While your application is not about sr-te-policies, the way a controller would use BGP to pass the commands to the targeted routers is similar; you should take a look. On 7/9/2018 4:13 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote: > > Eric, > > draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 discussed ways to resolve conflicts of > multiple UPDATE messages with Tunnel Encap attributes. > > Is it possible to have following capability? > > -Have a bit indicating a specific UPDATE is from authoritative source, > therefore overwrite all other Tunnel Attributes for the Prefix X to > avoid recursive next hop issues and tunnel selection at the receiving > Router? > This is not a good idea.  If you want to verify that a particular UPDATE is from an authoritative source, you need a lot more than can be conveyed in a single bit. > -Have a bit indicating that a specific UPDATE only contain Tunnel > attributes for the receiving Router, therefore can’t be forwarded? > Please compare draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy, and its use of NO_ADVERTISE and Route Targets. > You said that SAFI 7 is deprecated because no one seemed interested in > using it. We are very interested in using it because > > -it can be easily distinguished from normal  BGP UPDATE > > - The receiving router doesn’t have to “Filter” the tunnel attributes > before forwarding to others. > > -Can even be used for passing reconfigured IPsec keys to two ends of a > tunnel. > > Therefore we think SAFI 7 should be reserved. > It sounds like you need to write a draft proposing the specifics of how you would like to use BGP as part of your SD-WAN control.  The draft would then be free to propose a new SAFI, much as draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy did. --------------6DB56E613AA3F7ABC0B37652 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If you want a controller to use BGP to convey instructions for a particular node, there is a draft that does something very similar: draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy.  That draft defines a new AFI/SAFI for conveying segment routing te policies, and the policies are encoded as Tunnel Encapsulation attributes.  That draft does require the use of the NO_ADVERTISE community when an UPDATE is a command targeted to a single router.  The draft also allows the use of Route Targets to cover the case where a given  command is targeted to a set of routers, as well as the case where the targeted router is separated from the controller by a RR or ASBR.  While your application is not about sr-te-policies, the way a controller would use BGP to pass the commands to the targeted routers is similar; you should take a look.

On 7/9/2018 4:13 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote:

Eric,

 

draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 discussed ways to resolve conflicts of multiple UPDATE messages with Tunnel Encap attributes.

 

Is it possible to have following capability?

-        Have a bit indicating a specific UPDATE is from authoritative source, therefore overwrite all other Tunnel Attributes for the Prefix X to avoid recursive next hop issues and tunnel selection at the receiving Router?


This is not a good idea.  If you want to verify that a particular UPDATE is from an authoritative source, you need a lot more than can be conveyed in a single bit.


-        Have a bit indicating that a specific UPDATE only contain Tunnel attributes for the receiving Router, therefore can’t be forwarded?


Please compare draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy, and its use of NO_ADVERTISE and Route Targets.

 

You said that SAFI 7 is deprecated because no one seemed interested in using it. We are very interested in using it because

-        it can be easily distinguished from normal  BGP UPDATE

-         The receiving router doesn’t have to “Filter” the tunnel attributes before forwarding to others.  

-        Can even be used for passing reconfigured IPsec keys to two ends of a tunnel.

 

Therefore we think SAFI 7 should be reserved.


It sounds like you need to write a draft proposing the specifics of how you would like to use BGP as part of your SD-WAN control.  The draft would then be free to propose a new SAFI, much as draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy did.


--------------6DB56E613AA3F7ABC0B37652-- From nobody Tue Jul 10 11:05:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 306AE13103A for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 11:05:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pfp09Cc4fIVQ for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 11:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22d.google.com (mail-oi0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7AA4131041 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 11:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id q11-v6so18794417oic.12 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 11:05:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=KgiD0NlLFlmVhV90mltp7F1XMyvpGn36PsCxW6giyCs=; b=VgZMAKEESOcDFAmWm5bXh9z1qooEavDavytaPB3phOEb2QDDW2jIzA6xIFWUmv6kwx y0NQGT9kIPsoc1eWKKy2v+TOLsTeZbsRL76dl5haTiKUmeP+qs1avADK4sjvzG9YuHoP oQSKraEgr64ybYCtzl551sA2lPt12A6F8liZfvwJyUNKxkEk8gz2c9fXZby7xGZwI86N q9a2QwfTOZ8x3OjKGn1ppLaX2m5i4Tg2PyWo7djKmpB/sYbJl2rqfks9gHvVzAOQXCdF NbI4mR6ylzo1HIXiS0qh63wbnH9OXZLNbfv0ALjnqpzqz1KXwLGFZ2cDjKjBZ/yQ2X5n WZ/A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=KgiD0NlLFlmVhV90mltp7F1XMyvpGn36PsCxW6giyCs=; b=HILW71ghdGtCQCG3LddKj/NHZQoObk/qelt0jc6v3Kzj+Ylp+U/AaufOBHAzrbvfoc d0kEsanEV73nE0RuaSxqbMxZhEFKvBig8SGEZJE+ex68GBT2ic2Ds7Oh3z518veMdJ1D jRQ3KQxjOTfiz0W6UKnqjcgxNzqO4xUl8sHjLPA0plMS/pz5jhR4NHrwIXkxw6NDnqGr FM0wmJEgZOdbbw9F4jiIdEG+RScY8uNtHgicMSFtK9QZHzBxyRJqX/L2TcvMBMfjHptx ysO0AcTwZYEbfIdeBwr35nq7jE37FaIBZxx2X44NpUC57L4XBGVsKKgm/h12gp5m2Wgx rXHw== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E1zBY1qTvOirC8kndzqh/R6TgeESS6t95DdaWE2tkKZOIOtQVwI WuLJGZJeeoaaDTCPlHMoP1GJu06gmSraFzFq+qcNjw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfkpQ2ES3LqHvyt1eNcxTYW304oD7uqVWl8bX5cPOWrLrv2C69X5hDQQoHvG10hTIGlQ+IhJcEKZj4LPXBcdF8= X-Received: by 2002:aca:d80b:: with SMTP id p11-v6mr27547086oig.210.1531245942886; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 11:05:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:ac9:1ec8:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 11:05:42 -0700 (PDT) From: PVLR Pavana Murthy Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 23:35:42 +0530 Message-ID: To: idr wg , pmohapat@cumulusnetworks.com, "David Smith (djsmith)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007d5e760570a8fa1c" Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] The Use of 'm' and 'not' bits in bitmask BGP Flowspec component(RFC 5575). X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 18:05:55 -0000 --0000000000007d5e760570a8fa1c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, The following is given in the RFC. 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ | e | a | len | 0 | 0 |not| m | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ not - NOT bit. If set, logical negation of operation. m - Match bit. If set, this is a bitwise match operation defined as "(data & value) == value"; if unset, (data & value) evaluates to TRUE if any of the bits in the value mask are set in the data. * Please let me know if the following my understanding is correct.* I will try to use all the combinations of 'not' and 'm' bits. I will try to use the mask with SYN, ACK bits of TCP header for this. [CWR ECE URG ACK PSH RST SYN FIN] mask = 0x12 1. not-0, m-0 (data & mask) != 0 i.e. either SYN or ACK bits should have been set in TCP header. 2. not-0, m-1 (data & mask) == mask i.e. SYN and ACK bits both should be set in TCP header. 3. not-1,m-0 (data & mask) == 0 i.e. both SYN and ACK bits should not be set in TCP header. 4. not-1, m-1 (data & mask) != mask i.e. at least one of SYN or ACK bits should not be set in TCP header. Thanks, Pavana. --0000000000007d5e760570a8fa1c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
=C2=A0
The following is given in the RFC.=C2=A0

=C2=A0 0= =C2=A0 =C2=A01=C2=A0 =C2=A02=C2=A0 =C2=A03=C2=A0 =C2=A04=C2=A0 =C2=A05=C2= =A0 =C2=A06=C2=A0 =C2=A07
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
| e | a |=C2=A0 =C2=A0len | 0 | 0 |not| m |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+

= not - NOT=C2=A0bit. If set, lo= gical negation of operation.

m - Match<= span>=C2=A0bit. If set, this is a bi= twise match operation
= defined as "(data & value) =3D=3D value"; if unset, (data &am= p;
value) evaluates to= TRUE if any of the bits in the value
mask=C2=A0are = set in the data.


=C2=A0Please l= et me know if the following my understanding is correct.=C2=A0
I will try to use all the combinations of 'n= ot' and 'm' bits.

I will try to use the=C2=A0mask=C2=A0with SYN, ACK bits of TCP header for this.
[CWR ECE URG ACK PSH RST SYN FIN]
= mask=C2=A0=3D 0x12

  1. <= font face=3D"verdana, sans-serif">not-0, m-0=C2=A0 (data &=C2=A0<= /span>mask) !=3D 0 i.e. either SYN or ACK b= its should have been set in TCP header.
  2. not-0, m-1=C2=A0 (data &=C2=A0mask)=C2=A0 =3D=3D=C2= =A0mask=C2=A0i.e. SYN a= nd ACK bits both should be set in TCP header.
  3. not-1,m-0=C2=A0 =C2=A0(data= &=C2=A0mask) =3D=3D 0=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 i.e. both SYN and=C2=A0 ACK bits should not=C2=A0 be set in TCP = header.
  4. not-1, m-1=C2=A0 (data &=C2=A0mask) !=3D=C2=A0mask=C2=A0i.e. at least one of=C2=A0 SYN or ACK bits should no= t be set in TCP header.
Thanks,
Pavana.
--0000000000007d5e760570a8fa1c-- From nobody Tue Jul 10 12:56:35 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9005A1311A3; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 12:56:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 83xIkdxwDp_x; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 12:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D30EF1310CD; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 12:56:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id A261276D80D6B; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:56:25 +0100 (IST) Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.40) by lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:56:27 +0100 Received: from SJCEML521-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.132]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.22]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 12:56:21 -0700 From: Linda Dunbar To: Eric C Rosen , Jeff Tantsura , "idr@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? 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No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Q3SQoG9NITU; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 14:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E88D13118D; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 14:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id DB45BA7075151; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 22:59:24 +0100 (IST) Received: from SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.39) by lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.43) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 22:59:26 +0100 Received: from SJCEML521-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.132]) by SJCEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.5.100]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 14:59:21 -0700 From: Linda Dunbar To: Eric C Rosen , "idr@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? Thread-Index: AQHUGF6oE6c7SwL7OUGweIwWp6NGvqSI/haw Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 21:59:21 +0000 Message-ID: <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0AE83D@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A7BA3@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> <9edd33e0-f845-a872-8cd2-9aa056b8c132@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <9edd33e0-f845-a872-8cd2-9aa056b8c132@juniper.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.218.181.47] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0AE83Dsjceml521mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 21:59:32 -0000 --_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0AE83Dsjceml521mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric, We also believe what is proposed by draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-polic= y will be very useful for SD-WAN. But: - The SAFI proposed in the draft is explicitly for SR - SD-WAN control will need more field than what is proposed by draft= -ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy. - It might be convoluted to expand the fields for SD-WAN purpose Other comments/questions are inserted below: Linda From: Eric C Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 10:00 AM To: Linda Dunbar ; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tu= nnel-encaps@ietf.org Subject: Re: Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-i= etf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? If you want a controller to use BGP to convey instructions for a particular= node, there is a draft that does something very similar: draft-ietf-idr-se= gment-routing-te-policy. That draft defines a new AFI/SAFI for conveying s= egment routing te policies, and the policies are encoded as Tunnel Encapsul= ation attributes. That draft does require the use of the NO_ADVERTISE comm= unity when an UPDATE is a command targeted to a single router. The draft a= lso allows the use of Route Targets to cover the case where a given comman= d is targeted to a set of routers, as well as the case where the targeted r= outer is separated from the controller by a RR or ASBR. While your applica= tion is not about sr-te-policies, the way a controller would use BGP to pas= s the commands to the targeted routers is similar; you should take a look. On 7/9/2018 4:13 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote: Eric, draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 discussed ways to resolve conflicts of mult= iple UPDATE messages with Tunnel Encap attributes. Is it possible to have following capability? - Have a bit indicating a specific UPDATE is from authoritative sour= ce, therefore overwrite all other Tunnel Attributes for the Prefix X to avo= id recursive next hop issues and tunnel selection at the receiving Router? This is not a good idea. If you want to verify that a particular UPDATE is= from an authoritative source, you need a lot more than can be conveyed in = a single bit. [Linda] how many bits do you think are needed? - Have a bit indicating that a specific UPDATE only contain Tunnel a= ttributes for the receiving Router, therefore can't be forwarded? Please compare draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy, and its use of NO_= ADVERTISE and Route Targets. You said that SAFI 7 is deprecated because no one seemed interested in usin= g it. We are very interested in using it because - it can be easily distinguished from normal BGP UPDATE - The receiving router doesn't have to "Filter" the tunnel attribut= es before forwarding to others. - Can even be used for passing reconfigured IPsec keys to two ends o= f a tunnel. Therefore we think SAFI 7 should be reserved. It sounds like you need to write a draft proposing the specifics of how you= would like to use BGP as part of your SD-WAN control. The draft would the= n be free to propose a new SAFI, much as draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-= policy did. [Linda] Yes, we would like to. That is why we sent out so many questions. Linda --_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0AE83Dsjceml521mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Eric,

 

We also believe what i= s proposed by draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy will be very useful for SD-WAN.

But:=

-&nb= sp;       The SAFI propo= sed in the draft is explicitly for SR

-&nb= sp;       SD-WAN control= will need more field than what is proposed by draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy.  

-&nb= sp;       It might be co= nvoluted  to expand the fields for SD-WAN purpose

 

Other comments/questions are inserted below:

 

Linda

 

From:= Eric C Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 10:00 AM
To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>; idr@ietf.org; draf= t-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by = draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ?

 

If you want a control= ler to use BGP to convey instructions for a particular node, there is a dra= ft that does something very similar: draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-poli= cy.  That draft defines a new AFI/SAFI for conveying segment routing te policies, and the policies are encoded as= Tunnel Encapsulation attributes.  That draft does require the use of = the NO_ADVERTISE community when an UPDATE is a command targeted to a single= router.  The draft also allows the use of Route Targets to cover the case where a given  command is targeted= to a set of routers, as well as the case where the targeted router is sepa= rated from the controller by a RR or ASBR.  While your application is = not about sr-te-policies, the way a controller would use BGP to pass the commands to the targeted routers is similar; you= should take a look.

On 7/9/2018 4:13 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote:<= /p>

Eric,

 

draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-= encaps-09 discussed ways to resolve conflicts of multiple UPDATE messages w= ith Tunnel Encap attributes.

 

Is it possible to have= following capability?

-     &= nbsp;  Have a bit indicating= a specific UPDATE is from authoritative source, therefore overwrite all ot= her Tunnel Attributes for the Prefix X to avoid recursive next hop issues a= nd tunnel selection at the receiving Router?


This is not a good idea.  If you want to verify that a particular UPDA= TE is from an authoritative source, you need a lot more than can be conveye= d in a single bit.
[Linda] how many bits do you think are needed?


-     &= nbsp;  Have a bit indicating= that a specific UPDATE only contain Tunnel attributes for the receiving Ro= uter, therefore can’t be forwarded?


Please compare draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy, and its use of NO_= ADVERTISE and Route Targets.


 

You said that SAFI 7 i= s deprecated because no one seemed interested in using it. We are very inte= rested in using it because

-     &= nbsp;  it can be easily dist= inguished from normal  BGP UPDATE

-     &= nbsp;   The receiving r= outer doesn’t have to “Filter” the tunnel attributes befo= re forwarding to others.  

-     &= nbsp;  Can even be used for = passing reconfigured IPsec keys to two ends of a tunnel.

 

Therefore we think SAF= I 7 should be reserved.


It sounds like you need to write a draft proposing the specifics of how you= would like to use BGP as part of your SD-WAN control.  The draft woul= d then be free to propose a new SAFI, much as draft-ietf-idr-segment-routin= g-te-policy did.

 

[Linda] Yes, we would like to. That is why we sent out so many que= stions.  

 

Linda



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(PDT) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD43E130EC0; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:31:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8F73A1E28F; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 23:31:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 23:31:39 -0400 From: Jeffrey Haas To: Susan Hares Cc: idr@ietf.org, draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org Message-ID: <20180711033138.GM12853@pfrc.org> References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 03:31:51 -0000 Sue, On Mon, Jul 02, 2018 at 01:08:47PM -0400, Susan Hares wrote: > This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for > draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 – July 16). I'm supportive of IDR working on BGP auto-discovery. This document may be a good place to do it. Mostly I make this comment because: > 3) If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? > > Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc). draft-acee-idr-lldp-peer-discovery covers a bit of this space. (Xiaohu is also a co-author on that document.) The documents overlap strongly on core features, and could use general reconciliation across their feature sets. Speaking with my BFD co-chair hat on, BFD is likely not a good place for this. :-) -- Jeff P.S. I suspect Yakov would be a bit amused that LDP hello reared its head in a useful way in BGP. Part of BGP-4 would have been avoided if it'd been around. From nobody Tue Jul 10 23:26:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35DAE130E13; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 23:26:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bd-ewIz7EbNT; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 23:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E472130E0E; Tue, 10 Jul 2018 23:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml708-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id A1F0AA9F39C98; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 07:26:20 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML411-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.70) by lhreml708-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.49) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 07:26:21 +0100 Received: from NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::a54a:89d2:c471:ff]) by nkgeml411-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.70]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 14:26:12 +0800 From: Zhuangshunwan To: Susan Hares , "idr@ietf.org" CC: "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Thread-Index: AdQY3ZgTEGby4Lv1SxG0DIgIPbKOig== Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 06:26:11 +0000 Message-ID: <19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858DC3B8B4C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.202.166] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858DC3B8B4CNKGEML515MBXchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 06:26:31 -0000 --_000_19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858DC3B8B4CNKGEML515MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgU3VlLA0KDQpJIHN1cHBvcnQgdGhlIGFkb3B0aW9uIGFzIGEgY29udHJpYnV0b3IsIGFuZCBJ oa9tIG5vdCBhd2FyZSBvZiBhbnkgSVBSLg0KDQoxKSAgICAgICAgICAgIFllcywgaXQgY2FuIGJl IHVzZWQgdG8gc2ltcGxpZmllZCB0aGUgY29tcGxpY2F0ZWQgY29uZmlndXJhdGlvbiBvZiBCR1Au DQoyKSAgICAgICAgICAgIFllcywgaXQgd29ya3MgZm9yIG90aGVyIGRlcGxveW1lbnRzIHN1Y2gg YXMgbWV0cm8gYXJlYSBuZXR3b3Jrcy4NCjMpICAgICAgICAgICAgQkdQIEhlbGxvIG1lc3NhZ2Ug aXMgbGlrZSBhbiBMRFAgSGVsbG8gbWVzc2FnZSwgd2hpY2ggaGFzIGJlZW4gcHJvdmVuIHRvIHdv cmsgdmVyeSB3ZWxsLg0KNCkgICAgICAgICAgICBZZXMsIGl0IGNhbiBiZSB1c2VkIGJ5IExTVlIg V0cuDQoNCkJlc3QgUmVnYXJkcywNClNodW53YW4NCg0Kt6K8/sjLOiBJZHIgW21haWx0bzppZHIt Ym91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gtPqx7SBTdXNhbiBIYXJlcw0Kt6LLzcqxvOQ6IDIwMTjE6jfUwjPI 1SAxOjA5DQrK1bz+yMs6IGlkckBpZXRmLm9yZw0Ks63LzTogZHJhZnQteHUtaWRyLW5laWdoYm9y LWF1dG9kaXNjb3ZlcnlAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCtb3zOI6IFtJZHJdIFdHIGFkb3B0aW9uIGNhbGwgZm9y IGRyYWZ0LXh1LWlkci1uZWlnaGJvci1hdXRvZGlzY292ZXJ5DQoNCkdyZWV0aW5nczoNCg0KVGhp cyBiZWdpbnMgYSAyIHdlZWsgV0cgYWRvcHRpb24gY2FsbCBmb3IgZHJhZnQteHUtaWRyLW5laWdo Ym9yLWF1dG9kaXNjb3ZlcnkgKEp1bHkgMiCoQyBKdWx5IDE2KS4NCg0KaHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJh Y2tlci5pZXRmLm9yZy9kb2MvZHJhZnQteHUtaWRyLW5laWdoYm9yLWF1dG9kaXNjb3ZlcnkvDQoN ClRoZSBhdXRob3JzIG9mIHRoaXMgZHJhZnQgc2hvdWxkIHNlbmQgdGhlaXIgSVBSIHN0YXRlbWVu dHMgaW4gcmVzcG9uc2UgdG8gdGhpcyBlbWFpbC4gIEkgaG9wZSB0aGUgYXV0aG9ycyB3aWxsIGlo ZWxwIHRoZWlyIHZhY2F0aW9uaW5nIGNvLWF1dGhvcnMgdG8gcmVzcG9uZCBieSBKdWx5IDd0aC4N Cg0KVGhlIFdHIHNob3VsZCBjb25zaWRlciB0aGUgZm9sbG93aW5nOg0KDQoxKSAgICAgIERvZXMg QkdQIG5lZWQgdG8gaGF2ZSBhbiBhdXRvZGlzY292ZXJ5IG1lY2hhbmlzbSBmb3IgcGVlcnMgd2l0 aGluIERhdGEgQ2VudGVycz8NCg0KMikgICAgICBEb2VzIHRoaXMgbWVjaGFuaXNtIHdvcmsgZm9y IG90aGVyIGRlcGxveW1lbnRzPw0KDQoNCg0KMykgICAgICBJZiBzbywgc2hvdWxkIGJlIHBhc3Nl ZCBpbiBCR1AgSGVsbG8gbWVzc2FnZT8NCg0KT3Igc2hvdWxkIGl0IGJlIGEgcGFydCBvZiBhbm90 aGVyIHByb3RvY29sIChlLmcuIExMRFAsIEJGRCwgZXRjKS4NCg0KDQo0KSAgICAgIERvZXMgdGhp cyBpbnRlcmFjdCB3aXRoIGFueSBvZiB0aGUgTFNWUiB3b3JrPw0KDQpJIHdhbnQgdG8gdGhhbmsg dGhlIGF1dGhvcnMgZm9yIHRoZWlyIHBhdGllbmNlIHdoaWxlIHdlIHNvcnRlZCB0aHJvdWdoIHNv bWUgb2YgdGhlIFdHIExDIGZvciBvdGhlciBkcmFmdHMuICBXZSBkZWNpZGVkIHRvIHdhaXQgdW50 aWwgc29tZSBvZiB0aG9zZSBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIHdlcmUgY2xlYXJlZCB1cCBwcmlvciB0byBzdGFy dGluZyBhIG5ldyBXRyBBZG9wdGlvbiBjYWxsLg0KDQoNClN1c2FuIEhhcmVzDQo= --_000_19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858DC3B8B4CNKGEML515MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Sue,

 

I support the adoption as a contributor, and I=A1=AF= m not aware of any IPR.

 

1)        &n= bsp;   Yes, it can be used to simplified the complicated configur= ation of BGP.

2)        &n= bsp;   Yes, it works for other deployments such as metro area net= works.

3)        &n= bsp;   BGP Hello message is like an LDP Hello message, which has = been proven to work very well.

4)        &n= bsp;   Yes, it can be used by LSVR WG.

 

Best Regards,

Shunwan

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Susan Hares
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2018=C4=EA7=D4=C23=C8=D5 1:09
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: idr@ietf.org
=B3=AD=CB=CD: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-auto= discovery@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Idr] WG adoption call for= draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

 

Greetings:

 

This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-i= dr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =A8C July 16). 

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr= -neighbor-autodiscovery/

 

The authors of this draft should send their IPR stat= ements in response to this email.  I hope the authors will ihelp their= vacationing co-authors to respond by July 7th. 

 

The WG should consider the following:

1)      Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism fo= r peers within Data Centers?

2)      Does this mechanism work for other deployments?

 

3)      If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? =

Or should it be a part of another protocol (e= .g. LLDP, BFD, etc).

 

4)      Does this interact with any of the LSVR work? =

 

I want to thank the authors for their patience while= we sorted through some of the WG LC for other drafts.  We decided to = wait until some of those discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new= WG Adoption call.

 

 

Susan Hares

--_000_19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858DC3B8B4CNKGEML515MBXchi_-- From nobody Wed Jul 11 10:39:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E909130E63; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 10:39:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XCmWUAVYDNDL; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 10:39:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-x231.google.com (mail-pl0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B443130E64; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 10:39:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-x231.google.com with SMTP id 6-v6so9467825plb.0; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 10:39:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:cc:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=ZtsCsu8+/XCJbn8fS8DxaET0jIQfWK70nBHjxvDLW+g=; b=OdqJhsFZbpGw+AGyS9aFZIwdwZEfincxNc1QOcvqrBptEP7qgCFaTT2nBfpH/CDJ/H gLpnhMdt8KMt8GLkXmK90+JmvqE91ZaM5r5+soJHNuGB6CvcvbXyA4qOzQ8fHJ1Xmjt/ Xqe3pDjKjtthC+Za4LO7+js3aYK5n3w+o8rZwrBDsolyiaT09N+vAkQ1IS/OZ1yNAyeP cYvHzS8L4w6OScJFtyKyLX5Oo77WUFmY8fuwEPOn7nK9CZZi8w4f5GpjPtcpfVOqS3XU /ZqKWUx3DAt3pfm2en/NyDYs/MfYti9evBa3sLIG8JaBK4xQHP+ziHNK4bNuuxwZE7qE T1Dg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:cc:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=ZtsCsu8+/XCJbn8fS8DxaET0jIQfWK70nBHjxvDLW+g=; b=UqeA/OQgUTPfpXEslM46MotXWRGy0IjpL/ZDtGEbw7aAIBqxgT4Vm3ErycJDBWArcu c3soKBBG+DoVPWlxxCPySKO+K0+dosYq0ykN0lLUEho7cHf6xY4Wo41UaEyQP4Th7/5K OlfGqwaqRam3pqql/wwCryDUAvb6X8s166mAscDUHoA31hvocH2VVDaTkGFSn9p4+Ue/ LV+Z+bJxYvbiOiyhu7gobJS2cK1w1jS+w2dKCYoIfGqTsD4S6R678gO9NRfCteEDinEh HLq/hj917yazRCBWmEGf8yEAiwweKT3pZ8pEkvj/t3A2NpNsPzTPmks5w+ZYdvYPsDAp sT6Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlHmRjWZt7ids7fJvLfJZNY95EnK2ABUT9NPWfDDU3YOIIwz2MC2 1Y6JsOn8O9LN/B8EhXjeqzA8eHfk X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpeQiGLzr6HG19jRbZCGiXDyWuCOJAwF68nSkOZ/3BG0d31Vuh7BLxq19UZH+ge84iVjsws2Sw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:a40b:: with SMTP id p11-v6mr5078115plq.228.1531330768775; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 10:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.23.116.36] ([216.52.21.1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i6-v6sm30739973pfo.107.2018.07.11.10.39.27 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 11 Jul 2018 10:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-221808EC-E9E7-4F10-9FB8-23EFA8EBBDC1 Mime-Version: 1.0 From: Gaurav Dawra X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15F79) In-Reply-To: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> Cc: idr wg , draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 10:39:26 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: by 2002:ab3:d68:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jul 2018 19:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> To: Susan Hares Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 17:39:33 -0000 --Apple-Mail-221808EC-E9E7-4F10-9FB8-23EFA8EBBDC1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sue, Support. 1) Yes 2) Yes, BGP is most commonly used in most DCs. However, it may have applicat= ions beyond that. 3) yes, in order to simplify operations for DCs. Single CP is needed. 4) it should be reviewed by LSVR WG. Gaurav > On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Susan Hares wrote: > Greetings: >=20 > =20 >=20 > This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscov= ery (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16).=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/ >=20 > =20 >=20 > The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response to t= his email. I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors to re= spond by July 7th.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > The WG should consider the following: >=20 > 1) Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within D= ata Centers? >=20 > 2) Does this mechanism work for other deployments? >=20 > =20 >=20 > 3) If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message?=20 >=20 > Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc). >=20 > =20 >=20 > 4) Does this interact with any of the LSVR work? >=20 > =20 >=20 > I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through som= e of the WG LC for other drafts. We decided to wait until some of those dis= cussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call. >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Susan Hares >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr --Apple-Mail-221808EC-E9E7-4F10-9FB8-23EFA8EBBDC1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Sue,

Support.

1) Yes
=
2) Yes, BGP is most commonly used in most DCs. However, it may have app= lications beyond that.
3) yes, in order to simplify operations for= DCs. Single CP is needed.
4) it should be reviewed by LSVR WG.

Gaurav

On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com= > wrote:

Greetings:

 

This begins a 2 week WG ado= ption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =E2=80=93 Ju= ly 16). 

 <= /p>

https://datatracker.ietf.o= rg/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal"> 

The aut= hors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response to this emai= l.  I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors to respo= nd by July 7th. 

 

The WG should consider the foll= owing:

= 1) =      Does B= GP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within Data Centers?

2)  &nb= sp;   Does this mech= anism work for other deployments?

 

3)      If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message?  =

Or should i= t be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc).

 

4)      Does this interact with any of the LSVR work?

 

I wan= t to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through some of th= e WG LC for other drafts.  We decided to wait until some of those discu= ssion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call.

 <= /u>

 

Susan Hares


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= --Apple-Mail-221808EC-E9E7-4F10-9FB8-23EFA8EBBDC1-- From nobody Wed Jul 11 13:27:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAFA6130DF7; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 13:27:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t-UrMmTw1UmF; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 13:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38E57130E18; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 13:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 2B354FF16F3E0; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 21:26:54 +0100 (IST) Received: from SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.40) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 21:26:55 +0100 Received: from SJCEML521-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.132]) by SJCEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.22]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 13:26:49 -0700 From: Linda Dunbar To: Susan Hares , "idr@ietf.org" CC: "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Thread-Index: AdQY3ZgTPylai0FFTx6TtuTV7fzVrQAd8uXw Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 20:26:48 +0000 Message-ID: <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0B0AFC@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: <19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858DC3B8B4C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858DC3B8B4C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.157.238] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0B0AFCsjceml521mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 20:27:02 -0000 --_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0B0AFCsjceml521mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 U3VwcG9ydCwNCg0KTGluZGENCg0Kt6K8/sjLOiBJZHIgW21haWx0bzppZHItYm91bmNlc0BpZXRm Lm9yZ10gtPqx7SBTdXNhbiBIYXJlcw0Kt6LLzcqxvOQ6IDIwMTjE6jfUwjPI1SAxOjA5DQrK1bz+ yMs6IGlkckBpZXRmLm9yZzxtYWlsdG86aWRyQGlldGYub3JnPg0Ks63LzTogZHJhZnQteHUtaWRy LW5laWdoYm9yLWF1dG9kaXNjb3ZlcnlAaWV0Zi5vcmc8bWFpbHRvOmRyYWZ0LXh1LWlkci1uZWln aGJvci1hdXRvZGlzY292ZXJ5QGlldGYub3JnPg0K1vfM4jogW0lkcl0gV0cgYWRvcHRpb24gY2Fs bCBmb3IgZHJhZnQteHUtaWRyLW5laWdoYm9yLWF1dG9kaXNjb3ZlcnkNCg0KR3JlZXRpbmdzOg0K DQpUaGlzIGJlZ2lucyBhIDIgd2VlayBXRyBhZG9wdGlvbiBjYWxsIGZvciBkcmFmdC14dS1pZHIt bmVpZ2hib3ItYXV0b2Rpc2NvdmVyeSAoSnVseSAyIKhDIEp1bHkgMTYpLg0KDQpodHRwczovL2Rh dGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL2RvYy9kcmFmdC14dS1pZHItbmVpZ2hib3ItYXV0b2Rpc2NvdmVy eS8NCg0KVGhlIGF1dGhvcnMgb2YgdGhpcyBkcmFmdCBzaG91bGQgc2VuZCB0aGVpciBJUFIgc3Rh dGVtZW50cyBpbiByZXNwb25zZSB0byB0aGlzIGVtYWlsLiAgSSBob3BlIHRoZSBhdXRob3JzIHdp bGwgaWhlbHAgdGhlaXIgdmFjYXRpb25pbmcgY28tYXV0aG9ycyB0byByZXNwb25kIGJ5IEp1bHkg N3RoLg0KDQpUaGUgV0cgc2hvdWxkIGNvbnNpZGVyIHRoZSBmb2xsb3dpbmc6DQoNCjEpICAgICAg RG9lcyBCR1AgbmVlZCB0byBoYXZlIGFuIGF1dG9kaXNjb3ZlcnkgbWVjaGFuaXNtIGZvciBwZWVy cyB3aXRoaW4gRGF0YSBDZW50ZXJzPw0KDQoyKSAgICAgIERvZXMgdGhpcyBtZWNoYW5pc20gd29y ayBmb3Igb3RoZXIgZGVwbG95bWVudHM/DQoNCg0KDQozKSAgICAgIElmIHNvLCBzaG91bGQgYmUg cGFzc2VkIGluIEJHUCBIZWxsbyBtZXNzYWdlPw0KDQpPciBzaG91bGQgaXQgYmUgYSBwYXJ0IG9m IGFub3RoZXIgcHJvdG9jb2wgKGUuLmcuIExMRFAsIEJGRCwgZXRjKS4NCg0KDQo0KSAgICAgIERv ZXMgdGhpcyBpbnRlcmFjdCB3aXRoIGFueSBvZiB0aGUgTFNWUiB3b3JrPw0KDQpJIHdhbnQgdG8g dGhhbmsgdGhlIGF1dGhvcnMgZm9yIHRoZWlyIHBhdGllbmNlIHdoaWxlIHdlIHNvcnRlZCB0aHJv dWdoIHNvbWUgb2YgdGhlIFdHIExDIGZvciBvdGhlciBkcmFmdHMuICBXZSBkZWNpZGVkIHRvIHdh aXQgdW50aWwgc29tZSBvZiB0aG9zZSBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIHdlcmUgY2xlYXJlZCB1cCBwcmlvciB0 byBzdGFydGluZyBhIG5ldyBXRyBBZG9wdGlvbiBjYWxsLg0KDQoNClN1c2FuIEhhcmVzDQo= --_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0B0AFCsjceml521mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Support,

 

Linda

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Susan Hares
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2018=C4=EA7=D4=C23=C8=D5 1:09
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: idr@ietf.org
=B3=AD=CB=CD: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Idr] WG adoption call for= draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

 

Greetings:

 

This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-i= dr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =A8C July 16). 

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr= -neighbor-autodiscovery/

 

The authors of this draft should send their IPR stat= ements in response to this email.  I hope the authors will ihelp their= vacationing co-authors to respond by July 7th. 

 

The WG should consider the following:

1)      Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism fo= r peers within Data Centers?

2)      Does this mechanism work for other deployments?

 

3)      If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? =

Or should it be a part of another protocol (e= ..g. LLDP, BFD, etc).

 

4)      Does this interact with any of the LSVR work? =

 

I want to thank the authors for their patience while= we sorted through some of the WG LC for other drafts.  We decided to = wait until some of those discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new= WG Adoption call.

 

 

Susan Hares

--_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0B0AFCsjceml521mbschi_-- From nobody Wed Jul 11 14:24:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E66C130E73; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 14:24:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WKacz4caTW-z; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 14:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x235.google.com (mail-lf0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C347D130DDD; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 14:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x235.google.com with SMTP id u202-v6so22426875lff.9; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 14:24:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=CHt7cDnu1CD+T+oi6nP5wPtMQdzwoXPXkgXItzxhltU=; b=gAX2x5OHe6GSL5jo3k4qP3nIBGEJcuqDKjXN41kzb25F1L7FRhOt8IiMrXgLY52+Le WJU/wAT+NHvltbjMOj69aiI0gT3EnN0oFoaIYwlj/Uf7c+g3hxtaLCwmt825RPhFiuHA GQP1rJ2w5/f6ZZpqT6cyX0vkD+r/Lq6p/yP4CZ0VwHwrSIqPiKcFAmB6hnK8tpZitOkF VfyiMEe2bCeWyiph7JC/rN5C9oKi1FpSiE9PkyFuKPW8ST6d5uJG6ZjUCD8sYtf2J59K t1J9UKcWc/Px9KRU+nPXLtZ9R8F8e18AV/iN3s8MXrt0580+0armZNxa8S232yzwKftq TJYg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=CHt7cDnu1CD+T+oi6nP5wPtMQdzwoXPXkgXItzxhltU=; b=GwnpHsCodnkNxkNKD7tAYmMNVXY+4KcWDKHAkpFyuoylO2B3nrn4heJOGUQ+T90/0S bDAnPUY/PQTDt3u7dhhany5VYMrFbH+730qDCr48F+kdzTNnR68MUl0DAWLrm7qXYm5N LRuj4JymdJktQuWfUDNHbbwKFlHR06ZRn7DYLksRhIkKRjyo1OnquWI4irMzU8yV8kdr ym/Eu6cdEgCPuOfLa26+SZqCCNMrYy4OmMF1odGJUSTtNeCUqfYMKIYjbpvnEqxhsZeZ 0qXeednIkgaYurxGAzWVLtrQsEcM2xj6ZZcTyD2nBVhBnZUVWk3nd2eezzr2fpuN2fRb W3QA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlGrt9e+riZm+aTHQd8oXSjopbrJThS8WQXzeDDwUa/5wsxfyu/m L4c+mJvd0hvJSemtfDWSW5/H6EWGeOVFs3n4PWc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpe2wzByLHUrEQpoABBuR9TijhfOtzzW7jx72I4jhG/8kq2A514iKhqQ1w9WJZc/3xHXQ0tNwSuVqskoDp4GaiU= X-Received: by 2002:a19:c954:: with SMTP id z81-v6mr154971lff.107.1531344257813; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 14:24:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:8003:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 14:24:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> From: Nikos Triantafillis Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 00:24:17 +0300 Message-ID: To: Susan Hares Cc: idr wg , draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008412a50570bfde47" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 21:24:23 -0000 --0000000000008412a50570bfde47 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Support. Nikos.- On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 8:39 PM, Gaurav Dawra wrote= : > Hi Sue, > > Support. > > 1) Yes > 2) Yes, BGP is most commonly used in most DCs. However, it may have > applications beyond that. > 3) yes, in order to simplify operations for DCs. Single CP is needed. > 4) it should be reviewed by LSVR WG. > > Gaurav > > On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Susan Hares wrote: > >> Greetings: >> >> >> >> This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodisc= overy >> (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16). >> >> >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/ >> >> >> >> The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response t= o >> this email. I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors = to >> respond by July 7th. >> >> >> >> The WG should consider the following: >> >> 1) Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers >> within Data Centers? >> >> 2) Does this mechanism work for other deployments? >> >> >> >> 3) If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? >> >> Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc). >> >> >> >> 4) Does this interact with any of the LSVR work? >> >> >> >> I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through >> some of the WG LC for other drafts. We decided to wait until some of th= ose >> discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call. >> >> >> >> >> >> Susan Hares >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Idr mailing list >> Idr@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > --0000000000008412a50570bfde47 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Support.

Nikos.-

On Wed, Jul 1= 1, 2018 at 8:39 PM, Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com>= wrote:
Hi Sue,

Support.

1) Yes
2) Yes, BGP is most commonly used in most= DCs. However, it may have applications beyond that.
3) yes, in o= rder to simplify operations for DCs. Single CP is needed.
4) it s= hould be reviewed by LSVR WG.

Gaurav

On Mon, = Jul 2, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:<= br>

Greetings:

=C2=A0

This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16).=C2=A0

=C2=A0

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/

=C2=A0=

The authors of this draft should send their IPR = statements in response to this email.=C2=A0 I hope the authors will ihelp t= heir vacationing co-authors to respond by July 7th.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The WG should consider the following:

1)= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Does BGP need to= have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within Data Centers? <= /u>

2)= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Does this mechanism work for other deployments?

=C2= =A0

3)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message?=C2=A0 <= /p>

Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc).

=C2=A0

4)=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 D= oes this interact with any of the LSVR work?

=C2=A0

I want to thank t= he authors for their patience while we sorted through some of the WG LC for= other drafts.=C2=A0 We decided to wait until some of those discussion were= cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call.<= /p>

=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

Susan Hares


__________________________= _____________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr



_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr


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Talaulikar (ketant)" To: =?utf-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?= , "Susan Hares" , idr CC: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery , "aretana.ietf" , John Scudder Thread-Topic: WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Thread-Index: AdQSJcQmPylai0FFTx6TtuTV7fzVrQGuD1+AACmX65A= Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:02:53 +0000 Message-ID: References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.34.111] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_e918a522bbbe4598be0c0e56252ff3fbXCHALN008ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 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d="scan'208,217";a="422584822" Received: from alln-core-11.cisco.com ([173.36.13.133]) by rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 12 Jul 2018 02:08:09 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com (xch-rtp-013.cisco.com [64.101.220.153]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w6C288fN012609 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:08:08 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-012.cisco.com (64.101.220.152) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 22:08:08 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-012.cisco.com ([64.101.220.152]) by XCH-RTP-012.cisco.com ([64.101.220.152]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Wed, 11 Jul 2018 22:08:08 -0400 From: "Satya Mohanty (satyamoh)" To: Susan Hares , "idr@ietf.org" CC: "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Thread-Index: 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[10.65.34.111] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2976b5ca94c845f4a65c711b00ff3b8fXCHALN008ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery-08 X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:17:21 -0000 --_000_2976b5ca94c845f4a65c711b00ff3b8fXCHALN008ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgUm9iZXJ0LA0KDQpBcG9sb2dpZXMgZm9yIHRoZSBkZWxheSBpbiByZXNwb25zZS4gUGxlYXNl IGNoZWNrIGlubGluZSBiZWxvdy4NCg0KRnJvbTogcnJhc3p1a0BnbWFpbC5jb20gPHJyYXN6dWtA Z21haWwuY29tPiBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgUm9iZXJ0IFJhc3p1aw0KU2VudDogMDQgSnVseSAyMDE4 IDIwOjA0DQpUbzogS2V0YW4gVGFsYXVsaWthciAoa2V0YW50KSA8a2V0YW50QGNpc2NvLmNvbT4N CkNjOiBpZHIgd2cgPGlkckBpZXRmLm9yZz47IFN1c2FuIEhhcmVzIDxzaGFyZXNAbmR6aC5jb20+ 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h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Qn5rDc85Q6sCEp3CNWmCfVG1QGefIvPuJZLznlJxyj8=; b=AexzOlvJP0rBczV6R7Ur4pGxPuHBHtaZXOPnkHgVFXpXyR6Ystf5zzi3NUpxcSqSVO O+krjxGMDuuAQz/ee2BomPsWkgBFJAwt0wo1/9IlXME4bB8LZ+4l8BFeOZoKl3Vl0+YH 1DEHOBicidFE6upyfxmj4AaGNImSPvEpIbZnRvtLFn1UHO1ulRqJ8vy0gA+5YqThqtYr kXq9im1R6A4kBRhqyMIdARl2MbuD1RvDsrBiCXIa2odNsLTIeEHTnVAjTj9sRlaccHOa LaGRHpfO0MxH0BacK1nRAo7Ybh3dxerVzRKOI6suA6JD3MMxYub+h/4//sv1BZKNIzEt eagw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Qn5rDc85Q6sCEp3CNWmCfVG1QGefIvPuJZLznlJxyj8=; b=tKEIVdMbg1+u/3ruEw68KrW7rngQ23w5ogWFM9sP7IERMfOEDe67Yvfi6XWBYTBmnJ Va8kUzZ6GyFcMasPnuFdWjMyOZ8yRdAa+yNqRtm79cnnfW6TNyGfezKdwFN/mTt8alhb VkY1snJPhfecYkhwldjB4s2jMXr33jH7Ku+O8OD2SiVSnybb8sqMFOwPp9IIqMcJb1+a YxtiRIjGsd58PQVwSqMsoP61FntzHK1Cde3X/M6BBbYaT15GythI2RHm6vUond5eaqxs 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X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 05:41:20 -0000 --000000000000ca1bcc0570c6cf0d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Support Best Regards Shaowen Ma On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 1:08 AM, Susan Hares wrote: > Greetings: > > > > This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodisco= very > (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16). > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/ > > > > The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response to > this email. I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors t= o > respond by July 7th. > > > > The WG should consider the following: > > 1) Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within > Data Centers? > > 2) Does this mechanism work for other deployments? > > > > 3) If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? > > Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc). > > > > 4) Does this interact with any of the LSVR work? > > > > I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through > some of the WG LC for other drafts. We decided to wait until some of tho= se > discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call. > > > > > > Susan Hares > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > --000000000000ca1bcc0570c6cf0d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
S= upport

= Best Regards
Shaowen Ma

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 1:08 AM, Susan Hares <shares@n= dzh.com> wrote:

Greetings:

=C2=A0

This begins = a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (Jul= y 2 =E2=80=93 July 16).=C2=A0

<= /u>=C2=A0

https:/= /datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/

=C2=A0

The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements i= n response to this email.=C2=A0 I hope the authors will ihelp their vacatio= ning co-authors to respond by July 7th.=C2=A0

=

=C2=A0

The W= G should consider the following:

1)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <= span dir=3D"LTR">Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism fo= r peers within Data Centers?

2)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Does this mechanism work for other deployments? =

=C2=A0=

= 3)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 If so, should be= passed in BGP Hello message?=C2=A0

Or should it be a part of another protocol (e= .g. LLDP, BFD, etc).

=C2=A0=

= 4)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Does this intera= ct with any of the LSVR work?

<= /u>=C2=A0

I want to thank the authors for = their patience while we sorted through some of the WG LC for other drafts.= =C2=A0 We decided to wait until some of those discussion were cleared up pr= ior to starting a new WG Adoption call.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Susan Hares <= /u>


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--000000000000ca1bcc0570c6cf0d-- From nobody Thu Jul 12 00:23:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3088613107B; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 00:23:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=icloud.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9Si31eKQ-EgP; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 00:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from st13p11im-asmtp003.me.com (st13p11im-asmtp003.me.com [17.164.40.218]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C733B131090; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 00:23:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from process-dkim-sign-daemon.st13p11im-asmtp003.me.com by st13p11im-asmtp003.me.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.1.2.20170607 64bit (built Jun 7 2017)) id <0PBQ00H00SAWDA00@st13p11im-asmtp003.me.com>; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 07:23:36 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=icloud.com; s=04042017; t=1531380216; bh=7LrvyW9/q60GYT6NL1WFfQ1O/GDFVaGuIhCKHi+gT9Q=; h=From:Message-id:Content-type:MIME-version:Subject:Date:To; b=Nd7Z6+OljOHCACenlwntXRp2vtBwFD6kcBENN932JCbqtjQHpy2M9bjZpkobAYTch qsb7A6OkeGetyTwff5DvyJKQC6Zry8WDHfNzL+EeZIenVss3V44r3Xo/CvnjiRXiQg vJV2uPOM7IRHxkBUaY+1WEjdjlETat/MC6+BqE9kJjNpzE0LnrgpWDbV4lv4lF44zb P8PwQCkO03o60WEQd4P4qQd559QHxjl5Qkghn0r+tOkg5LpLo9z0JoCpXyjkzb/4AN 7ySNc2ohu3AKKetipREwvXPWJOnChKzPl0GgLCqQgN8JphohCPD4DkYnl3ehCt6Xu2 8JedCqtkHadyw== Received: from icloud.com ([127.0.0.1]) by st13p11im-asmtp003.me.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.1.2.20170607 64bit (built Jun 7 2017)) with ESMTPSA id <0PBQ00N4WSJ82V20@st13p11im-asmtp003.me.com>; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 07:23:35 +0000 (GMT) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:,, definitions=2018-07-12_03:,, signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 suspectscore=3 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1807120076 From: Gunter Van De Velde Message-id: <7220CFF5-1AF7-4644-B078-E545BDF2E346@icloud.com> Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0520A9EB-868B-4245-B2B4-A64CBEEF1949" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.4 \(3445.8.2\)) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 09:23:31 +0200 In-reply-to: Cc: Susan Hares , idr wg , draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org, lsvr-chairs@ietf.org To: Gaurav Dawra References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.8.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 07:23:56 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0520A9EB-868B-4245-B2B4-A64CBEEF1949 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 LSVR realises that there is need for a neighbour and liveliness = detection mechanism, and is making effort to understand the particular = LSVR requirements for a solution.=20 =46rom a very high level perspective, there are few ways to address the = aspect of LSVR peer discovery and liveliness detection: 1) Create something new 2) Extend something existing 3) Re-use something existing LSVR has no technology religion about any of these, and would like to = progress with a solution space that most=20 optimal answers the particular LSVR requirements.=20 Within LSVR WG meeting at IETF102, there is time reserved to discuss = about these matters, and if you feel interested, we could add this draft = into the agenda? Brgds, G/ > On 11 Jul 2018, at 19:39, Gaurav Dawra wrote: >=20 > Hi Sue, >=20 > Support. >=20 > 1) Yes > 2) Yes, BGP is most commonly used in most DCs. However, it may have = applications beyond that. > 3) yes, in order to simplify operations for DCs. Single CP is needed. > 4) it should be reviewed by LSVR WG. >=20 > Gaurav >=20 > On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Susan Hares > wrote: > Greetings: >=20 > =20 >=20 > This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16).=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/ = > =20 >=20 > The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response = to this email. I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing = co-authors to respond by July 7th.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > The WG should consider the following: >=20 > 1) Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers = within Data Centers? >=20 > 2) Does this mechanism work for other deployments? >=20 > =20 >=20 > 3) If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message?=20 >=20 > Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc). >=20 > =20 >=20 > 4) Does this interact with any of the LSVR work? >=20 > =20 >=20 > I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through = some of the WG LC for other drafts. We decided to wait until some of = those discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption = call. >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Susan Hares >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr = >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr --Apple-Mail=_0520A9EB-868B-4245-B2B4-A64CBEEF1949 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 LSVR = realises that there is need for a neighbour and liveliness detection = mechanism, and is making effort to understand the particular LSVR = requirements for a solution. 

=46rom a very high level perspective, = there are few ways to address the aspect of LSVR peer discovery and = liveliness detection:
1) Create something = new
2) Extend something existing
3) Re-use something existing

LSVR has no technology religion about any of these, and = would like to progress with a solution space that = most 
optimal answers the particular LSVR = requirements. 

Within LSVR WG = meeting at IETF102, there is time reserved to discuss about these = matters, and if you feel interested, we could add this draft into the = agenda?

Brgds,
G/





On 11 Jul 2018, at 19:39, = Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi = Sue,

Support.

1) Yes
2) Yes, BGP is most commonly used = in most DCs. However, it may have applications beyond that.
3) yes, in order to simplify operations for DCs. Single CP is = needed.
4) it should be reviewed by LSVR = WG.

Gaurav

On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:

Greetings:

 

This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =E2=80=93 = July 16). 

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/

 

The = authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response to = this email.  I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing = co-authors to respond by July 7th. 

 

The WG = should consider the following:

1)      Does BGP need to have = an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within Data Centers?

2)      Does this mechanism = work for other deployments?

 

3)      = If = so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? 

Or = should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc).

 

4)      Does this interact = with any of the LSVR work?

 

I want to thank the authors for their patience while = we sorted through some of the WG LC for other drafts.  We decided = to wait until some of those discussion were cleared up prior to starting = a new WG Adoption call.

 

 

Susan Hares


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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

= --Apple-Mail=_0520A9EB-868B-4245-B2B4-A64CBEEF1949-- From nobody Thu Jul 12 01:51:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87BD4130ECE for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 01:51:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ubFguL4DQa_r for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 01:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-x234.google.com (mail-pl0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DEE9112F1A2 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 01:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-x234.google.com with SMTP id z9-v6so10386825plo.1 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 01:51:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=tX2GdOXDg3KNzBTuT6bI4qfq4qdGXM2fCa8+tF088A4=; b=gnvR9zjCGiw8LCSjU2ViuMqlXvHs/Mr2wevdPgUGQS9pdqR/9A1OHPs7MXW1c4zCLP 0OnLWMLsyhVYFl01L/5XjotsadSBI22Go52C3cgH1D+gnwhUU/MgpB0mvFEAI4+goY8n 1/otm6pKDBjahCLrQV3DYnMEZeE5CmsVueIG1P1nZBe/DilCeEMbd+P6mdckkSpRSn/n WDZvJcG/qie0wZ5m52MwbbFbhFMNnMjvQ7KursMZASlfTnoJ4m6nasFBDeEh1hIO6OmH 8XX6QFKPpxnUyNtIge3DhBu96MpRDRCiWrQqsDc7e0ufpNLU2vWTMPa3CsjLII3T/GIc 12LQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tX2GdOXDg3KNzBTuT6bI4qfq4qdGXM2fCa8+tF088A4=; b=a4xqE81rwg8nwXmoVvIdPuhq7TcrCJBvkTF7z1cAqKQE5/o4ow5HxJDuQMQpVtdR8J XKJwfhahFtlnIxrBQN6OzvIT+8f3FIAJ2Kmta6qIHdPm8AAhvbSz48d/Kl/q9vDOhyVo atAiJFzLI8YMTGYUnS8ZNqWdbceR7zG2b4n6KLSDqVtVOKtDProUV1OCx7OH+6xfJsr0 t+VbQmlkJ8M4r0e0pQaTRsg8n+jcxucY+kDTFCWWe9aDH8aKRTejaPzcHZu+5Mdlpa4X DYEHCK7ZCoR9pVLgRUJ/NbHOLGiexONXmDyg15D6ihYmtxIjbygziEns5kntAvZQcVHg LNTA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlEvhE+ypKSIoOHR8rEFnKCzPUUDF4FNwN8Dh6VBey2rARoi/7pZ NIPv8BmCnYdSXCqC+pyKTtl8lUxN4v9HgbmIYf0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpf3AQoAOSi8SRESqnn0hd9Tf8h+OUTnpPFkx6cAS53yYAywteGZ/LtiiEgVDQk599jNe1kpwpnOhC8jbGHmEEc= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:8309:: with SMTP id bd9-v6mr1281250plb.321.1531385511850; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 01:51:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a17:90a:bd8e:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 01:51:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2976b5ca94c845f4a65c711b00ff3b8f@XCH-ALN-008.cisco.com> References: <2976b5ca94c845f4a65c711b00ff3b8f@XCH-ALN-008.cisco.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:51:51 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: mBHwo_a-EiAkghjb7sB4CZ0mo5U Message-ID: To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" Cc: idr wg , Susan Hares Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000072b7110570c9794d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery-08 X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 08:51:56 -0000 --00000000000072b7110570c9794d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ketan, Ad 1 - You missed the point of the issue. The point was that you are *not* doing any discovery - at most automating some aspects of BGP provisioning for MSDCs. The other draft was just the example what is auto discovery ie. you don't apriori know the other side. Here due to amount of policy required to scope BGP Hellos per interface you surely do. Ad 2 - If draft does not propose any such aspects please remove TLVs which are there for LSVR. Ad 3 - Today BGP sessions goes down either via manual shut or via missing keepalives. You are asking for bringing BGP sessions down based on missing BGP Hellos. This is new state to BGP operation. If you remove this section making BGP Hellos only for BGP session auto configuration bootstrapping as ephemeral data - point will be addressed. Thx, R. On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 4:17 AM, Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) wrote: > Hi Robert, > > > > Apologies for the delay in response. Please check inline below. > > > > *From:* rraszuk@gmail.com *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszu= k > *Sent:* 04 July 2018 20:04 > *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) > *Cc:* idr wg ; Susan Hares > *Subject:* Re: [Idr] draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery-08 > > > > Hi Ketan, > > > > Thank you for comments. > > > > I see two fundamental issues here: > > > > *Issue #1: * > > > > With all assumptions made in the draft about awareness of the "other side= " > as well as with the additional requirement to set per interface policy to > scope the content of BGP Hellos to specific peer or peers what is propose= d > here is not autodiscovery. At most it is BGP build in automation for p2p > BGP session auto provisioning. So inbound configuration automation. Don't > we have sufficient set of tools already ? And this is only local ... It > does not discover IBGP or EBGP peers far from each other like proposed in > other IDR expired document: draft-raszuk-idr-bgp-auto-discovery-05 > > > > I am really not sure if we should do that in BGP, but if so let's at leas= t > call it correctly. > > *[KT] The mechanism described in draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery is > expected to work for directly connected BGP routers and using a link-loca= l > signaling. As such, it is different from the draft that you propose in > scope and purpose even though there are similarities.* > > > > *Issue #2: * > > > > As you mentioned some proposed already TLVs have nothing to do with BGP. > What is defined is the IGP like interface_IDs discovery for the purpose o= f > LSVR. So initially LSVR claimed to *only* get passively BGP-LS informatio= n. > Now we see more stuff being defined to help LSVR. Where does it stop ? Do > we really want to add this code to BGP protocol which creates a global > Internet reachability only if someone thought about using LSVR in few DCs= ? > > > > You actually go further and already indicating that now BGP will be used > as topology discovery for TE purposes. This is getting IMHO really bad. > > > > TLVs here look very innocent by itself ... but when you realize > consequences this attaches LSVR together with core BGP - at least BGP cod= e > wise. I do not think this is good idea at all. > > > > Note that because basic BGP is used in few MSDCs there is number of > followers which do want to use it also in much smaller DC fabrics. When y= ou > have few hundreds L3 nodes regular link state routing (even without any > flooding reduction) would do much better job - but because of all of the > noise to use BGP a lot of folks are getting very confused and positioning > "BGP everywhere" regardless if this is optimal fit or not. > > *[KT] The draft does not propose or discuss any such aspects. It is > primarily focused at DC deployments where BGP is already used/proposed.* > > > > > > + one more comment below ... > > > > > > *=E2=80=8B* > > *[KT] There is no intention to change the BGP state machine for the TCP > session. * > > > > Well you are clearly calling for tearing down BGP upon missing reception > of BGP Hello by removing reachability information. Well let's discuss thi= s > more. If BGP is established over connected interface (not to loopback) ho= w > do you attempt to bring down BGP when BGP peer will stop sending Hellos ? > > > > And if you have session between loopbacks is cutting reachability the bes= t > way to bring down BGP between two peers ? It sounds like we spend so much > energy in routing BGP to be graceful that such brutal force is rather > something to be avoided. > > > > So the way you are referring to deleting BGP sessions when Hellos stop > does require quite some interaction with other BGP mechanisms as well as > adjusting state machine. I understand you are trying to stay away from it > .. well I am afraid it is not going to be possible :(. > > *[KT] Will work on updating the draft with co-authors to clarify/detail > these aspects in an upcoming version.* > > > > *Thanks,* > > *Ketan* > > > > > > Thx, > > R. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) < > ketant@cisco.com> wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > > > Thanks for your review and comments. Please check inline below for > responses. > > > > > > *From:* Idr *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk > *Sent:* 04 July 2018 14:08 > *To:* idr wg > *Subject:* [Idr] draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery-08 > > > > > > Few questions and comments on draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery: > > > > 1. I recommend you rename HOLDTIME to H-TIME or R-TIME (Retention Time) i= n > order to avoid confusion with BGP OPEN HOLDTIME. > > *[KT] Ack =E2=80=93 we could rename it to disambiguate.* > > > > 2. While most of the text is consistent and talks about single peering > address there is moment when plural form is used: "that cover the peerin= g > address(es)". Can someone elaborate more on intention here to send multip= le > peering addresses ? Also if sending multiple peering addressed in BGP Hel= lo > is being considered where such addresses will be actually sent as Peering > Address TLV clearly talks about single address > > *[KT] It may be desired to have multiple (say loopback) peering addresses > for different types of BGP sessions. E.g. IPv4 and IPv6 or any other > AFI/SAFI split. Also see next comment.* > > > > 3. Related to #2 if I would like to send both IPv4 and IPv6 peering > addresses how those will be encoded ? Is there an assumption that Peering > Address TLV will be present multiple times in such cases ? > > *[KT] Yes. One for each peering address.* > > > > 4.. Are proposed Hello messages supposed to be send over all interfaces o= r > it will be customized on a per outbound interface or group of interfaces > basis ? > > *[KT] Customized on per interface basis that is defined by a local config > policy/template.* > > > > 5. Having Peering Address TLV & Local Prefixes TLV (for cases of loopback > peering) I don't quite see a need for Link Attribute TLV at all. > > *[KT] At this point it is to exchange interface ID and addresses so that > the links may be defined in an unambiguous was in the BGP-LS Link NLRI fo= r > each of these links. This may be required for BGP-SPF or other use-cases = in > DC where we want to signal the underlying link topology for say TE.* > > > > 6. Likewise Neighbor TLV seems quite unnecessary to me. To whom it will b= e > sent ? To the peer we just established the peering with :) ? To other pee= rs > - why ? > > *[KT] There may be policies that allow a peering to be accepted on a > specific link. It would be good to avoid one side trying setup a BGP > session while the other does not wish to. This mechanism allows > establishment of a 2-way state at each link level before the BGP session > establishment happens and also to ensure that the =E2=80=9Cpeering route= =E2=80=9D is > actually setup over that link.* > > > > 7. One of the fundamental element of all BGP peerings is ability to detec= t > peering liveness without tuning down BGP holdtime timer. Yet this proposa= l > does not mention nor signal a bit about say BFD to be used mutually by bo= th > sides on the discovered links. > > *[KT] Yes, this was not covered explicitly but can be done optionally. Th= e > desire to run BFD is one such attribute that may be signaled using the li= nk > attribute TLV.* > > > > 8. The draft is also pretty silent on how often the BGP HELLOs will be > sent. For example is there an exponential timer allowing to slow down whe= n > the other side is not there yet ? > > *[KT] This would be very similar to how IGPs or LDP run their hello which > is periodic but then also triggered when some change or a new neighbor is > learnt.* > > > > 9.. The text I read in the last paragraph is super scary: > > > > "A BGP peer > > maintains a hold timer with each Hello adjacency that it restarts > > when it receives a Hello that matches the adjacency. If the timer > > expires without receipt of a matching Hello from the peer, BGP > > concludes that the peer no longer wishes to keep BGP session for that > > link or that the peer has failed. The BGP peer then deletes the > > Hello adjacency. The route towards the BGP neighbor's loopback > > address that had been dynamically created due to that BGP Hello > > adjacency SHOULD be deleted accordingly. When the last Hello > > adjacency for an BGP session is deleted, the BGP peer terminates the > > BGP session and closing the transport connection." > > > > Your recommendation for two octet BGP Hello Holdtime expressed in seconds > is 15 sec. Are you invalidating use and state machine associated with BGP > Keepalive MSG above? I recommend this text is removed as it adds a lot of > new mechanism to BGP state machine. > > *=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B* > > *[KT] There is no intention to change the BGP state machine for the TCP > session. The hello procedure brings in its own mechanism which is gets to > the same point where the BGP session is provisioned in existing procedure= . > Consider that an auto-discovered BGP session is to be removed or disabled > on an interface. This can be done by taking that link out of this discove= ry > mechanism. Such an action should result in stopping the hellos and > subsequently we also would like the BGP session state at TCP level to be > cleaned up at both ends.* > > > > 10. Do you plane to actually update BGP state machine ? > > *[KT] No change. However, you are right that the relationship between the > discovery mechanism and BGP state machine needs to be explained.* > > > > 11. At present your auto-discovery does not mention anything about use of > BGP MD5 or TCP-A0. Is there an assumption that peers which are discoverin= g > themselves will have those configured ? Is there also an assumption that = I > should always trust information received with BGP Hello messages ? > Shouldn't we perhaps aim at private/public key authentication model inste= ad > ? > > *[KT] This aspect still needs to be covered.* > > > > 12. Draft says: > > > > "BGP hello messages are only exchanged between physically connected peers > that are trustworthy." > > > > How is that trust determined ? Is there an implicit assumption that BGP > Hello is something you need to enable on a per physical interface basis > where you know apriori the other side of the fiber ? Doesn't it reduce th= e > full automation one should expect out of this proposal ? Also when I peer > with someone via L2 switch - still assume on a p2p basis - does this setu= p > prevents me from use of BGP Hello Messages ? > > *[KT] While this is true in a DC environment, perhaps we do need to defin= e > a generic security mechanism as part of this protocol extension.* > > > > *Thanks,* > > *Ketan* > > > > Thx, > > Robert. > > > > PS. I would like to first understand the authors perspective on the above > observations before responding to Sue's WG adoption call. > > > > > > > --00000000000072b7110570c9794d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ketan,

<= /div>
Ad 1 - You missed the point of the issue. The point= was that you are *not* doing any discovery - at most automating some aspec= ts of BGP provisioning for MSDCs. The other draft was just the example what= is auto discovery ie. you don't apriori know the other side. Here due = to amount of policy required to scope BGP Hellos per interface you surely d= o.=C2=A0

Ad 2 - If dra= ft does not propose any such aspects please remove TLVs which are there for= LSVR.=C2=A0

Ad 3 - To= day BGP sessions goes down either via manual shut or via missing keepalives= . You are asking for bringing BGP sessions down based on missing BGP Hellos= . This is new state to BGP operation. If you remove this section making BGP= Hellos only for BGP session auto configuration bootstrapping as ephemeral = data - point will be addressed.=C2=A0

Thx,
R.



On= Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 4:17 AM, Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) = <ketant@cisco.com<= /a>> wrote:

Hi Robert,

=C2=A0

Apologies for the dela= y in response. Please check inline below.

=C2=A0

From: rraszuk@gmail.com <rraszuk@gmail.com> On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
Sent: 04 July 2018 20:04
To: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>
Cc: idr wg <idr= @ietf.org>; Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Subject: Re: [Idr] draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery-08

=C2=A0

Hi Ketan,

=C2=A0

Thank you for comments.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I see two fundamental issues here:

=C2=A0

Issue #1:=C2=A0

=C2=A0

With all assumptions made in the draft about awareness of the "ot= her side" as well as with the additional requirement to set per interf= ace policy to scope the content of BGP Hellos to specific peer or peers what is proposed here is not autodiscovery. At most it is BG= P build in automation for p2p BGP session auto provisioning. So inbound con= figuration automation. Don't we have sufficient set of tools already ? = And this is only local ... It does not discover IBGP or EBGP peers far from each other like proposed in other IDR= expired document:=C2=A0draft-raszuk-idr-bgp-auto-discovery-05<= u>

=C2=A0

I am really not sure if we should do that in BGP, but if so let's = at least call it correctly.=C2=A0

[KT] The mechanism descr= ibed in draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery is expected to work for di= rectly connected BGP routers and using a link-local signaling. As such, it is different from the draft that you propose in scope and purp= ose even though there are similarities.

=C2=A0

Issue #2:=C2=A0

=C2=A0

As you mentioned some proposed already TLVs have nothing to do with BG= P. What is defined is the IGP like interface_IDs discovery for the purpose = of LSVR. So initially LSVR claimed to *only* get passively BGP-LS information. Now we see more stuff being defined to help = LSVR. Where does it stop ? Do we really want to add this code to BGP protoc= ol which creates a global Internet reachability only if someone thought abo= ut using LSVR in few DCs ?=C2=A0

=C2=A0

You actually go further and already indicating that now BGP will be us= ed as topology discovery for TE purposes. This is getting IMHO really bad.= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

TLVs here look very innocent by itself ... but when you realize conseq= uences this attaches LSVR together with core BGP - at least BGP code wise. = I do not think this is good idea at all.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Note that because basic BGP is used in few MSDCs there is number of fo= llowers which do want to use it also in much smaller DC fabrics. When you h= ave few hundreds L3 nodes regular link state routing (even without any flooding reduction) would do much better job - but becau= se of all of the noise to use BGP a lot of folks are getting very confused = and positioning "BGP everywhere" regardless if this is optimal fi= t or not.=C2=A0

[KT] The draft does not = propose or discuss any such aspects. It is primarily focused at DC deployme= nts where BGP is already used/proposed.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

+ one more comment below ...=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=E2=80=8B

[KT] There is = no intention to change the BGP state machine for the TCP session.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Well you are clearly calling for tearing down BGP upon missing recepti= on of BGP Hello by removing reachability information. Well let's discus= s this more. If BGP is established over connected interface (not to loopback) how do you attempt to bring down BGP when BGP = peer will stop sending Hellos ?=C2=A0

=C2=A0

And if you have session between loopbacks is cutting reachability the = best way to bring down BGP between two peers ? It sounds like we spend so m= uch energy in routing BGP to be graceful that such brutal force is rather something to be avoided.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

So the way you are referring to deleting BGP sessions when Hellos stop= does require quite some interaction with other BGP mechanisms as well as a= djusting state machine. I understand you are trying to stay away from it .. well I am afraid it is not going to be possible :(= .=C2=A0

[KT] Will work on updati= ng the draft with co-authors to clarify/detail these aspects in an upcoming= version.

=C2=A0=

Thanks,

Ketan

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thx,

R.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 11:49 AM, Ketan Talaulikar (k= etant) <ketant@cis= co.com> wrote:

Hi Robert,

=C2=A0

Thanks for your review= and comments. Please check inline below for responses.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
Sent: 04 July 2018 14:08
To: idr wg <idr= @ietf.org>
Subject: [Idr] draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery-08=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Few questions and comments on=C2=A0draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodisc= overy:

=C2=A0

1. I recommend you rename HOLDTIME to H-TIME or R-TIME (Retention Time= ) in order to avoid confusion with BGP OPEN HOLDTIME.=C2=A0

[KT] Ack =E2=80=93 we could ren= ame it to disambiguate.

=C2=A0

2. While most of the text is consistent and talks about single peering= address there is moment when plural form is used:=C2=A0 "that cover the peering address(es)". Can someone elaborate more on intention her= e to send multiple peering addresses ? Also if sending multiple peering add= ressed in BGP Hello is being considered where such addresses will be actual= ly sent as Peering Address TLV clearly talks about single address

[KT] It may be desired to have = multiple (say loopback) peering addresses for different types of BGP sessions. E.g. IPv4 and IPv6 or any other AFI/SAFI split. Also see = next comment.

=C2=A0

3. Related to #2 if I would like to send both IPv4 and IPv6 peering ad= dresses how those will be encoded ? Is there an assumption that Peering Address TLV will be present multiple times in such cases ?=C2=A0

[KT] Yes. One for each peering = address.

=C2=A0

4.. Are proposed Hello messages supposed to be send over all interface= s or it will be customized on a per outbound interface or group of interfaces basis ?=C2=A0

[KT] Customized on per interfac= e basis that is defined by a local config policy/template.

=C2=A0

5. Having Peering Address TLV & Local Prefixes TLV (for cases of l= oopback peering) I don't quite see a need for Link Attribute TLV at all.=C2=A0

[KT] At this point it is to exc= hange interface ID and addresses so that the links may be defined in an unambiguous was in the BGP-LS Link NLRI for each of these links. Thi= s may be required for BGP-SPF or other use-cases in DC where we want to sig= nal the underlying link topology for say TE.

=C2=A0

6. Likewise Neighbor TLV seems quite unnecessary to me. To whom it wil= l be sent ? To the peer we just established the peering with :) ? To other peers - why ?=C2=A0

[KT] There may be policies that= allow a peering to be accepted on a specific link. It would be good to avoid one side trying setup a BGP session while the other does not= wish to. This mechanism allows establishment of a 2-way state at each link= level before the BGP session establishment happens and also to ensure that= the =E2=80=9Cpeering route=E2=80=9D is actually setup over that link.

=C2=A0

7. One of the fundamental element of all BGP peerings is ability to de= tect peering liveness without tuning down BGP holdtime timer. Yet this proposal does not mention nor signal a bit about say BFD to be us= ed mutually by both sides on the discovered links.=C2=A0

[KT] Yes, this was not covered = explicitly but can be done optionally. The desire to run BFD is one such attribute that may be signaled using the link attribute TLV.

=C2=A0

8. The draft is also pretty silent on how often the BGP HELLOs=C2=A0 w= ill be sent. For example is there an exponential timer allowing to slow down when the other side is not there yet ?=C2=A0

[KT] This would be very similar= to how IGPs or LDP run their hello which is periodic but then also triggered when some change or a new neighbor is learnt.

=C2=A0

9.. The text I read in the last paragraph is super scary:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0"A BGP peer

=C2=A0 =C2=A0maintains a hold timer with each Hello adjacency that it = restarts

=C2=A0 =C2=A0when it receives a Hello that matches the adjacency.=C2= =A0 If the timer

=C2=A0 =C2=A0expires without receipt of a matching Hello from the peer= , BGP

=C2=A0 =C2=A0concludes that the peer no longer wishes to keep BGP sess= ion for that

=C2=A0 =C2=A0link or that the peer has failed. The BGP peer then delet= es the

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Hello adjacency.=C2=A0 The route towards the BGP neighbor= 's loopback

=C2=A0 =C2=A0address that had been dynamically created due to that BGP= Hello

=C2=A0 =C2=A0adjacency SHOULD be deleted accordingly.=C2=A0 When the l= ast Hello

=C2=A0 =C2=A0adjacency for an BGP session is deleted, the BGP peer ter= minates the

=C2=A0 =C2=A0BGP session and closing the transport connection."

=C2=A0

Your recommendation for two octet BGP Hello Holdtime expressed in seco= nds is 15 sec. Are you invalidating use and state machine associated with BGP Keepalive MSG above? I recommend this text is removed as it adds = a lot of new mechanism to BGP state machine.=C2=A0

=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B

[KT] There is no intention to change the BGP s= tate machine for the TCP session. The hello procedure brings in its own mec= hanism which is gets to the same point where the BGP session is provisioned= in existing procedure. Consider that an auto-discovered BGP session is to be removed or disabled on an interfac= e. This can be done by taking that link out of this discovery mechanism. Su= ch an action should result in stopping the hellos and subsequently we also = would like the BGP session state at TCP level to be cleaned up at both ends.

=C2=A0

10. Do you plane to actually update BGP state machine ?=C2=A0

[KT] No change. However, you ar= e right that the relationship between the discovery mechanism and BGP state machine needs to be explained.<= /p>

=C2=A0

11. At present your auto-discovery does not mention anything about use= of BGP MD5 or TCP-A0. Is there an assumption that peers which are discovering themselves will have those configured ? Is there also an a= ssumption that I should always trust information received with BGP Hello me= ssages ? Shouldn't we perhaps aim at private/public key authentication = model instead ?=C2=A0

[KT] This aspect still needs to= be covered.

=C2=A0

12. Draft says:=C2=A0

=C2=A0

"BGP hello messages are only exchanged between physically connect= ed peers that are trustworthy."=C2=A0

=C2=A0

How is that trust determined ? Is there an implicit assumption that BG= P Hello is something you need to enable on a per physical interface basis where you know apriori the other side of the fiber ? Doesn't it = reduce the full automation one should expect out of this proposal ? Also wh= en I peer with someone via L2 switch - still assume on a p2p basis - does t= his setup prevents me from use of BGP Hello Messages ?

[KT] While this is true in a DC= environment, perhaps we do need to define a generic security mechanism as part of this protocol extension.=

=C2=A0=

Thanks,

Ketan<= /u>

=C2=A0

Thx,

Robert.

=C2=A0

PS. I would like to first understand the authors perspective on the ab= ove observations before responding to Sue's WG adoption call.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


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URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bfGJ0Mt2SRkn; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x534.google.com (mail-pg1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D3911294D0; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x534.google.com with SMTP id p23-v6so3565843pgv.13; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:00:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=pSQqPSFnflMrJht3kNoLdUXdFxngaZyYbDxJ9E91D+M=; 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AOUpUlFBzgNMWjfMhdZDIjY9gAtsjGmLSYzSadiUnYOG+1alJtWXyFf1 DN7BusgU3x43/PeJaAdVMUhFj3GFrCjRU5OSMfY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcq76CTunDG3jsPZbFuQwR80rFX3Zr5GJe41NV2Wmiid+8V2xAdDE2jbiK98ezoyBNrgsQK/C3B7/5rZuYlhiI= X-Received: by 2002:a65:5c83:: with SMTP id a3-v6mr1319009pgt.164.1531386002539; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:00:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a17:90a:bd8e:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:00:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <242ed290-d6e9-41f9-931d-955e81f62f0d.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <7220CFF5-1AF7-4644-B078-E545BDF2E346@icloud.com> <242ed290-d6e9-41f9-931d-955e81f62f0d.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 11:00:01 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ZXX-E91B3YRK20Dn4W3ezkpElbI Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?= Cc: Idr , Gaurav Dawra , idr wg , lsvr-chairs , draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery , Susan Hares Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b208b00570c9969c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 09:00:10 -0000 --000000000000b208b00570c9969c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And that is precisely what IMHO we should avoid. Clear separation from BGP global routing and BGP as IGP including LSVR is: - extremely important for stability of the former - very need for innovation and new features velocity of the latter Thx, R. On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:54 AM, =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5= =85=88) wrote: > Hi Gunter, > > Thanks for your email and suggestion. I believe the BGP peer discovery > mechanism as described in this draft is applicable to the use of BGP as I= GP > (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7938) and LSVR as well. > > Ketan, one co-auhtor of this draft would present this draft on the LSVR > session. > > Best regards, > Xiaohu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > From:Gunter Van De Velde > Send Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B)= 15:24 > To:Gaurav Dawra > Cc:idr wg ; lsvr-chairs ; > draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery autodiscovery@ietf.org>; Susan Hares > Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscover= y > > LSVR realises that there is need for a neighbour and liveliness detection > mechanism, and is making effort to understand the particular LSVR > requirements for a solution. > > From a very high level perspective, there are few ways to address the > aspect of LSVR peer discovery and liveliness detection: > 1) Create something new > 2) Extend something existing > 3) Re-use something existing > > LSVR has no technology religion about any of these, and would like to > progress with a solution space that most > optimal answers the particular LSVR requirements. > > Within LSVR WG meeting at IETF102, there is time reserved to discuss abou= t > these matters, and if you feel interested, we could add this draft into t= he > agenda? > > Brgds, > G/ > > > > > > On 11 Jul 2018, at 19:39, Gaurav Dawra wrote: > > Hi Sue, > > Support. > > 1) Yes > 2) Yes, BGP is most commonly used in most DCs. However, it may have > applications beyond that. > 3) yes, in order to simplify operations for DCs. Single CP is needed. > 4) it should be reviewed by LSVR WG. > > Gaurav > > On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Susan Hares wrote: > > Greetings: > > > > This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodisco= very > (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16). > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/ > > > > The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response to > this email. I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors t= o > respond by July 7th. > > > > The WG should consider the following: > > 1) Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within > Data Centers? > > 2) Does this mechanism work for other deployments? > > > > 3) If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? > > Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc). > > > > 4) Does this interact with any of the LSVR work? > > > > I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through > some of the WG LC for other drafts. We decided to wait until some of tho= se > discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call. > > > > > > Susan Hares > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > --000000000000b208b00570c9969c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

And that i= s precisely what IMHO we should avoid.=C2=A0

Clear separation from BGP global routing and BGP as = IGP including LSVR is:=C2=A0

- extremely important for stability of the former=C2=A0
- very need for innovation and new features velocity of the l= atter=C2=A0

Thx,
=
R.

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:54 AM, =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99= =8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) <xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> wrote:
Hi Gunter,=C2=A0

Thanks for your email and suggestion. I believe the BGP p= eer discovery mechanism as described in this draft is applicable to the use= of BGP as IGP (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7938) and LSVR as well.=C2= =A0

Keta= n, one co-auhtor of this draft would present this draft on the=C2=A0LSVR se= ssion.

B= est regards,
Xiaohu

------------------------------= ------------------------------------
From:Gunter Van De Velde &l= t;guntervandeveldecc=3D40icloud.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Send Time:2018=E5=B9= =B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B) 15:24
To:Gaurav Dawr= a <gdawra.iet= f@gmail.com>
Cc:idr wg <idr@ietf.org>; lsvr-chairs <lsvr-chairs@ietf.org>; draft-xu-idr= -neighbor-autodiscovery <draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodisc= overy@ietf.org>; Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption ca= ll for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery
LSVR realises that there is need for a neighbour and liveliness dete= ction mechanism, and is making effort to understand the particular LSVR req= uirements for a solution.=C2=A0

From a very high level p= erspective, there are few ways to address the aspect of LSVR peer discovery= and liveliness detection:
1) Create something new
2) E= xtend something existing
3) Re-use something existing
<= br>
LSVR has no technology religion about any of these, and would like = to progress with a solution space that most=C2=A0
optimal answers= the particular LSVR requirements.=C2=A0

Within LS= VR WG meeting at IETF102, there is time reserved to discuss about these mat= ters, and if you feel interested, we could add this draft into the agenda?<= /div>

Brgds,
G/


<= /div>



On 11 Jul 2018, at 19:39, = Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Sue,

Support.

1) Yes
2) Yes, BGP is most c= ommonly used in most DCs. However, it may have applications beyond that.
3) yes, in order to simplify operations for DCs. Single CP is neede= d.
4) it should be reviewed by LSVR WG.

= Gaurav

On Mo= n, Jul 2, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:

Greetings:

=C2=A0

This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for d= raft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16).=C2=A0 <= /p>

=C2=A0

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-n= eighbor-autodiscovery/

=C2=A0

=

The authors of this draft should send their I= PR statements in response to this email.=C2=A0 I hope the authors will ihel= p their vacationing co-authors to respond by July 7th.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The = WG should consider the following:

1)=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mec= hanism for peers within Data Centers?

2)=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Does this mechanism work for other depl= oyments?

=C2=A0

3)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message?=C2=A0=

Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc).=

=C2=A0

4)=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Does this interact with any of the L= SVR work?

=C2=A0

I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted thr= ough some of the WG LC for other drafts.=C2=A0 We decided to wait until som= e of those discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption c= all.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Susan Hares


______________________________= _________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@i= etf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr


_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr



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17:06:05 +0800 Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 17:06:05 +0800 From: "=?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?=" To: "rraszuk" Cc: "Idr" , "Gaurav Dawra" , "idr wg" , "lsvr-chairs" , "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery" , "Susan Hares" Reply-To: "=?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?=" Message-ID: <89530067-fe75-4301-ad0e-35f3891cbfaa.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> X-Mailer: [Alimail-Mailagent revision 268][W4_5305839][v5ForWebDing][Safari] MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <7220CFF5-1AF7-4644-B078-E545BDF2E346@icloud.com> <242ed290-d6e9-41f9-931d-955e81f62f0d.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com>, In-Reply-To: x-aliyun-mail-creator: W4_5305839_v5ForWebDing_QvNTW96aWxsYS81LjAgKE1hY2ludG9zaDsgSW50ZWwgTWFjIE9TIFggMTBfMTJfNikgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA0LjUuNiAoS0hUTUwsIGxpa2UgR2Vja28pIFZlcnNpb24vMTEuMC4zIFNhZmFyaS82MDQuNS42La Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=ALIBOUNDARY_6202_5740d940_5b4719fd_208a87" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] 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+0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: dQwhlho34RHjM8qFQLAORP7H1Hc Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?= Cc: Idr , Gaurav Dawra , idr wg , lsvr-chairs , draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery , Susan Hares Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f4d52c0570c9c489" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 09:13:01 -0000 --000000000000f4d52c0570c9c489 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BGP code is a BGP code and regardless if this is running on a router in the Internet or in the MSDC , regardless if it comes from vendor X, Y or Z it is the same code base. It is *BAD* idea to now glue BGP code base with LSVR. And this is first draft which attempts do so in a very subtle manner by proposing two TLVs. If we allow this to go through (because of sympathy to "reuse existing" approach) the consequences down the road will be rather ugly for all BGP based worlds (Internet, MSDC, but also enterprises with internal routing, users of L2 and L3VPN etc ...). Thx, R. On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 11:06 AM, =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5= =85=88) wrote: > Robert, > > The mechanism as described in this draft is only targeted for the > MSDC where RFC7938 has been enabled. It's absolutely not targeted for the > global routing system:) > > Best regards, > Xiaohu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > From:Robert Raszuk > Send Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B)= 17:00 > To:=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) > Cc:Idr ; Gaurav Dawra ; idr > wg ; lsvr-chairs ; > draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery autodiscovery@ietf.org>; Susan Hares > Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscover= y > > > And that is precisely what IMHO we should avoid. > > Clear separation from BGP global routing and BGP as IGP including LSVR is= : > > - extremely important for stability of the former > - very need for innovation and new features velocity of the latter > > Thx, > R. > > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:54 AM, =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89= =E5=85=88) > wrote: > Hi Gunter, > > Thanks for your email and suggestion. I believe the BGP peer discovery > mechanism as described in this draft is applicable to the use of BGP as I= GP > (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7938) and LSVR as well. > > Ketan, one co-auhtor of this draft would present this draft on the LSVR > session. > > Best regards, > Xiaohu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > From:Gunter Van De Velde > Send Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B)= 15:24 > To:Gaurav Dawra > Cc:idr wg ; lsvr-chairs ; > draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery autodiscovery@ietf.org>; Susan Hares > Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscover= y > > LSVR realises that there is need for a neighbour and liveliness detection > mechanism, and is making effort to understand the particular LSVR > requirements for a solution. > > From a very high level perspective, there are few ways to address the > aspect of LSVR peer discovery and liveliness detection: > 1) Create something new > 2) Extend something existing > 3) Re-use something existing > > LSVR has no technology religion about any of these, and would like to > progress with a solution space that most > optimal answers the particular LSVR requirements. > > Within LSVR WG meeting at IETF102, there is time reserved to discuss abou= t > these matters, and if you feel interested, we could add this draft into t= he > agenda? > > Brgds, > G/ > > > > > > On 11 Jul 2018, at 19:39, Gaurav Dawra wrote: > > Hi Sue, > > Support. > > 1) Yes > 2) Yes, BGP is most commonly used in most DCs. However, it may have > applications beyond that. > 3) yes, in order to simplify operations for DCs. Single CP is needed. > 4) it should be reviewed by LSVR WG. > > Gaurav > > On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Susan Hares wrote: > > Greetings: > > > > This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodisco= very > (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16). > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/ > > > > The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response to > this email. I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors t= o > respond by July 7th. > > > > The WG should consider the following: > > 1) Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within > Data Centers? > > 2) Does this mechanism work for other deployments? > > > > 3) If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? > > Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc). > > > > 4) Does this interact with any of the LSVR work? > > > > I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through > some of the WG LC for other drafts. We decided to wait until some of tho= se > discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call. > > > > > > Susan Hares > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > > > --000000000000f4d52c0570c9c489 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

BGP code i= s a BGP code and regardless if this is running on a router in the Internet = or in the MSDC , regardless if it comes from vendor X, Y or Z it is the sam= e code base.=C2=A0

It = is *BAD*=C2=A0 idea to now glue BGP code base with LSVR. And this is first = draft which attempts do so in a very subtle manner by proposing two TLVs.= =C2=A0

If we allow thi= s to go through (because of sympathy to "reuse existing" approach= ) the consequences down the road will be rather ugly for all BGP based worl= ds (Internet, MSDC, but also enterprises with internal routing, users of L2= and L3VPN etc ...).=C2=A0

Thx,
R.



On Thu,= Jul 12, 2018 at 11:06 AM, =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) = <xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> wrote:
Robert,

The mechanism a= s described in this draft is only targeted for the MSDC=C2=A0where RFC7938 = has been enabled. It's absolutely not targeted for the global routing s= ystem:)

= Best regards,
Xiaohu

------------------------------------------------------------------
From:Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Se= nd Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B) 17:= 00
xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com>
Cc:Idr <i= dr-bounces@ietf.org>; Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com>; idr wg <idr@ietf.org>; lsvr-c= hairs <lsvr-ch= airs@ietf.org>; draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery <= draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org>; Susan Hares <= shares@ndzh.com>= ;
Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr= -neighbor-autodiscovery


And that is precisely what IMHO we should avoid.=C2=A0

Clear separation from BGP = global routing and BGP as IGP including LSVR is:=C2=A0

- extremely important for stability of the= former=C2=A0
- very need for innovation and new fe= atures velocity of the latter=C2=A0

Thx,
R.

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:54 AM, = =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) <xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> wrote:
Hi Gunter,=C2=A0

=

Ketan, one co= -auhtor of this draft would present this draft on the=C2=A0LSVR session.

Best regar= ds,
Xiaohu

-----------------= -------------------------------------------------
From:Gunter Van De Velde <guntervandeveldecc= =3D40iclou= d.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
To:Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com= >
Cc:idr wg <idr@ietf.org>; lsvr-chair= s <lsvr-chairs= @ietf.org>; draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery <draf= t-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org>; Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call= for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

LSVR realise= s that there is need for a neighbour and liveliness detection mechanism, an= d is making effort to understand the particular LSVR requirements for a sol= ution.=C2=A0

From a very high level perspective, there a= re few ways to address the aspect of LSVR peer discovery and liveliness det= ection:
1) Create something new
2) Extend something exi= sting
3) Re-use something existing

LSVR has no= technology religion about any of these, and would like to progress with a = solution space that most=C2=A0
optimal answers the particular LSV= R requirements.=C2=A0

Within LSVR WG meeting at IE= TF102, there is time reserved to discuss about these matters, and if you fe= el interested, we could add this draft into the agenda?

Brgds,
G/





On 11 Jul 2018, at 19:39, Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.= com> wrote:

Hi Sue,

Suppor= t.

1) Yes
2) Yes, BGP is most commonly u= sed in most DCs. However, it may have applications beyond that.
3= ) yes, in order to simplify operations for DCs. Single CP is needed.
<= div>4) it should be reviewed by LSVR WG.

Gaurav

On Mon, Jul 2,= 2018 at 10:08 AM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:
Greetings:

=C2=A0

This begins a 2 week WG adoption = call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16= ).=C2=A0

=C2=A0

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf= t-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/

=C2=A0

The authors of this draft should = send their IPR statements in response to this email.=C2=A0 I hope the autho= rs will ihelp their vacationing co-authors to respond by July 7th.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The WG should consider the following:

1)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Does BGP = need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within Data Centers?

=

2)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= Does this mechanism work for other deployments?

=C2=A0

3)= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If so, should be passed in BGP= Hello message?=C2=A0

Or should it be a part = of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc).

=C2=A0

4)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Does this interact with any of the LSVR work?

=C2=A0

I w= ant to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through some of= the WG LC for other drafts.=C2=A0 We decided to wait until some of those d= iscussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Susan Hares

=

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@i= etf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr


_______________________________________________
Id= r mailing list
Idr@iet= f.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr


<= /div>
_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@i= etf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr




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17:32:59 +0800 Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 17:32:59 +0800 From: "=?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?=" To: "rraszuk" Cc: "Idr" , "Gaurav Dawra" , "idr wg" , "lsvr-chairs" , "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery" , "Susan Hares" Reply-To: "=?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?=" Message-ID: <28ef469c-19d6-43b8-a881-d697e7a8569c.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> X-Mailer: [Alimail-Mailagent revision 268][W4_5305839][v5ForWebDing][Safari] MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <7220CFF5-1AF7-4644-B078-E545BDF2E346@icloud.com> <242ed290-d6e9-41f9-931d-955e81f62f0d.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> <89530067-fe75-4301-ad0e-35f3891cbfaa.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com>, In-Reply-To: x-aliyun-mail-creator: W4_5305839_v5ForWebDing_QvNTW96aWxsYS81LjAgKE1hY2ludG9zaDsgSW50ZWwgTWFjIE9TIFggMTBfMTJfNikgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA0LjUuNiAoS0hUTUwsIGxpa2UgR2Vja28pIFZlcnNpb24vMTEuMC4zIFNhZmFyaS82MDQuNS42La Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=ALIBOUNDARY_83262_49347940_5b47204b_20a1ca" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] =?utf-8?q?WG_adoption_call_for_draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autod?= =?utf-8?q?iscovery?= X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 09:33:11 -0000 ------=ALIBOUNDARY_83262_49347940_5b47204b_20a1ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 V2hhdCdzIExTVlIgaW4geW91ciBtaW5kPyBpc24ndCBpdCBidWlsdCBvbiB0aGUgZXhpc3Rpbmcg QkdQIGNvZGUgYmFzZT8KCkJ5IHRoZSB3YXksIGhhdmUgeW91IGhlYXJkIGFueSBpbnRlcmVzdCBv biB0aGlzIG1lY2hhbmlzbSBmcm9tIHVzZXJzIG9mIHRoZSBMMi9MM1ZQTj86KQoKWGlhb2h1CgoK LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tCkZyb206Um9iZXJ0IFJhc3p1ayA8cm9iZXJ0QHJhc3p1ay5uZXQ+ClNlbmQgVGlt ZToyMDE45bm0N+aciDEy5pelKOaYn+acn+WbmykgMTc6MTMKVG865b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCkg 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<28ef469c-19d6-43b8-a881-d697e7a8569c.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 11:58:47 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: cA-p8s3lqDf1qpQpLzD00KVZWFQ Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?= Cc: Idr , Gaurav Dawra , idr wg , lsvr-chairs , draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery , Susan Hares Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d73f0c0570ca68ff" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 09:58:52 -0000 --000000000000d73f0c0570ca68ff Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 11:32 AM, =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5= =85=88) wrote: > What's LSVR in your mind? isn't it built on the existing BGP code base? > =E2=80=8BNo. Please see LSVR charter=E2=80=8B: *The LSVR protocol is intended as a self-standing routing protocol even if using existing BGP transport mechanisms and encodings, or if sharing the same transport session with other existing BGP address families. * =E2=80=8BHere we are proposing even tighter dependency ... information in B= GP Hellos to be critical element of LSVR operation. =E2=80=8BToday someone can= very easily move LSVR transport to say TI-BGP proposed separated at the port level sessions. But if you add even single hard attachment to BGP for LSVR like proposed TLVs it will become a hard anchor. > By the way, have you heard any interest on this mechanism from users of > the L2/L3VPN?:) > =E2=80=8BYou missed =E2=80=8Bit ... it was not about their interest in LSVR= or BGP Hellos ... it was about their fear that something they do not need will impact them due to bugs. Cheers R. > > Xiaohu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > From:Robert Raszuk > Send Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B)= 17:13 > To:=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) > Cc:Idr ; Gaurav Dawra ; idr > wg ; lsvr-chairs ; > draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery autodiscovery@ietf.org>; Susan Hares > Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscover= y > > > BGP code is a BGP code and regardless if this is running on a router in > the Internet or in the MSDC , regardless if it comes from vendor X, Y or = Z > it is the same code base. > > It is *BAD* idea to now glue BGP code base with LSVR. And this is first > draft which attempts do so in a very subtle manner by proposing two TLVs. > > If we allow this to go through (because of sympathy to "reuse existing" > approach) the consequences down the road will be rather ugly for all BGP > based worlds (Internet, MSDC, but also enterprises with internal routing, > users of L2 and L3VPN etc ...). > > Thx, > R. > > > > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 11:06 AM, =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89= =E5=85=88) > wrote: > Robert, > > The mechanism as described in this draft is only targeted for the > MSDC where RFC7938 has been enabled. It's absolutely not targeted for the > global routing system:) > > Best regards, > Xiaohu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > From:Robert Raszuk > Send Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B)= 17:00 > To:=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) > Cc:Idr ; Gaurav Dawra ; idr > wg ; lsvr-chairs ; > draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery autodiscovery@ietf.org>; Susan Hares > Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscover= y > > > And that is precisely what IMHO we should avoid. > > Clear separation from BGP global routing and BGP as IGP including LSVR is= : > > - extremely important for stability of the former > - very need for innovation and new features velocity of the latter > > Thx, > R. > > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:54 AM, =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89= =E5=85=88) > wrote: > Hi Gunter, > > Thanks for your email and suggestion. I believe the BGP peer discovery > mechanism as described in this draft is applicable to the use of BGP as I= GP > (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7938) and LSVR as well. > > Ketan, one co-auhtor of this draft would present this draft on the LSVR > session. > > Best regards, > Xiaohu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > From:Gunter Van De Velde > Send Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B)= 15:24 > To:Gaurav Dawra > Cc:idr wg ; lsvr-chairs ; > draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery autodiscovery@ietf.org>; Susan Hares > Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscover= y > > LSVR realises that there is need for a neighbour and liveliness detection > mechanism, and is making effort to understand the particular LSVR > requirements for a solution. > > From a very high level perspective, there are few ways to address the > aspect of LSVR peer discovery and liveliness detection: > 1) Create something new > 2) Extend something existing > 3) Re-use something existing > > LSVR has no technology religion about any of these, and would like to > progress with a solution space that most > optimal answers the particular LSVR requirements. > > Within LSVR WG meeting at IETF102, there is time reserved to discuss abou= t > these matters, and if you feel interested, we could add this draft into t= he > agenda? > > Brgds, > G/ > > > > > > On 11 Jul 2018, at 19:39, Gaurav Dawra wrote: > > Hi Sue, > > Support. > > 1) Yes > 2) Yes, BGP is most commonly used in most DCs. However, it may have > applications beyond that. > 3) yes, in order to simplify operations for DCs. Single CP is needed. > 4) it should be reviewed by LSVR WG. > > Gaurav > > On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Susan Hares wrote: > > Greetings: > > > > This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodisco= very > (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16). > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/ > > > > The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response to > this email. I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors t= o > respond by July 7th. > > > > The WG should consider the following: > > 1) Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within > Data Centers? > > 2) Does this mechanism work for other deployments? > > > > 3) If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? > > Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc). > > > > 4) Does this interact with any of the LSVR work? > > > > I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through > some of the WG LC for other drafts. We decided to wait until some of tho= se > discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call. > > > > > > Susan Hares > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > > > > > --000000000000d73f0c0570ca68ff Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 11:32 AM, =E5=BE=90=E5= =B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) <xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> wrote:
What's LSVR in your mind? isn't it built on th= e existing BGP code base?



By the way, h= ave you heard any interest on this mechanism from users of the L2/L3VPN?:)<= br>

= =E2=80=8BYou missed =E2=80=8Bit ... it was not about their interest in LSVR= or BGP Hellos ... it was about their fear that something they do not need = will impact them due to bugs.


Cheers
R.


=C2=A0

Xiaohu

-------------------------= -----------------------------------------
From:Robert Raszuk <= ;robert@raszuk.net>
Send Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5= =9B=9B) 17:13
To:=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) <xiaohu.xxh@aliba= ba-inc.com>
Cc:Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org>; Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com>;= idr wg <idr@ietf.org<= /a>>; lsvr-chairs <lsvr-chairs@ietf.org>; draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscov= ery <draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org>; S= usan Hares <shares@= ndzh.com>
Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neigh= bor-autodiscovery


BGP code is a BGP code and regardles= s if this is running on a router in the Internet or in the MSDC , regardles= s if it comes from vendor X, Y or Z it is the same code base.=C2=A0

It= is *BAD*=C2=A0 idea to now glue BGP code base with LSVR. And this is first= draft which attempts do so in a very subtle manner by proposing two TLVs.= =C2=A0

If we allow this to go through (because of sympathy to "re= use existing" approach) the consequences down the road will be rather = ugly for all BGP based worlds (Internet, MSDC, but also enterprises with in= ternal routing, users of L2 and L3VPN etc ...).=C2=A0

Thx,
R.

=


= On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 11:06 AM, =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5= =85=88) <xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> wrote:
Robert,

The mechanism as described in this dra= ft is only targeted for the MSDC=C2=A0where RFC7938 has been enabled. It= 9;s absolutely not targeted for the global routing system:)

Best regards,
Xiaohu
------------------------------= ------------------------------------
From:Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Send Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F= =E5=9B=9B) 17:00
To:=E5=BE=90=E5= =B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) <xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com>
Cc:Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org>; Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.= com>; idr wg <i= dr@ietf.org>; lsvr-chairs <lsvr-chairs@ietf.org>; draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery <draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.or= g>; Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
<= div class=3D"m_-5621627023200128196m_-875688759599363633clear: m_-562162702= 3200128196m_-875688759599363633both">Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for= draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery


And that is precisely what IMHO we should avoid.= =C2=A0

Clear separation from BGP global routing and BGP as IGP includi= ng LSVR is:=C2=A0

- extremely important for stability of the former=C2= =A0
- very need for innovation and new features velocity of the latter=C2= =A0

Thx,
R.

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:54 AM, =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(= =E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) <xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> wrote:
Hi Gunter,=C2=A0

Thanks for your e= mail and suggestion. I believe the BGP peer discovery mechanism as describe= d in this draft is applicable to the use of BGP as IGP (https://tools.ietf.org/html/= rfc7938) and LSVR as well.=C2=A0
Ketan, one co-auhtor of this draft would = present this draft on the=C2=A0LSVR session.

Best regards,
Xiaohu

------------------------------------------------------------------
From:Gunter Van De= Velde <guntervandeveldecc=3D40icloud.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
= Send Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B) 1= 5:24
To:Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc:idr wg &l= t;idr@ietf.org>; l= svr-chairs <ls= vr-chairs@ietf.org>; draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery <draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org>; Susan Hares= <shares@ndzh.com>
Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neig= hbor-autodiscovery

LSVR realises that there is need for a neig= hbour and liveliness detection mechanism, and is making effort to understan= d the particular LSVR requirements for a solution.=C2=A0

From a very high level perspective, there are few ways to address the aspe= ct of LSVR peer discovery and liveliness detection:

LSVR has no technology religion about any = of these, and would like to progress with a solution space that most=C2=A0<= /div>
optimal answers the particular LSVR requirements.=C2=A0

Within LSVR WG meeting at IETF102, there is time reserved t= o discuss about these matters, and if you feel interested, we could add thi= s draft into the agenda?

Brgds,
G/
=






Hi Sue,

Support.
<= div>
1) Yes
2) Yes, BGP is most commonly used in mo= st DCs. However, it may have applications beyond that.
3) yes, in= order to simplify operations for DCs. Single CP is needed.
4) it= should be reviewed by LSVR WG.

Gaurav

On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at = 10:08 AM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:

Greetings:

=C2=A0

This begins a 2 we= ek WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 = =E2=80=93 July 16).=C2=A0

=C2=A0

https://datatracker.ietf.= org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/

=C2=A0

The authors of thi= s draft should send their IPR statements in response to this email.=C2=A0 I= hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors to respond by Jul= y 7th.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The WG should consider the following:

1)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechan= ism for peers within Data Centers?

2)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Does this mechanism work for other deployments?

=C2=A0

3)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If= so, should be passed in BGP Hello message?=C2=A0

Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g.= LLDP, BFD, etc).

=C2=A0

4)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 Does this interact with any of the LSVR work?

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-top:.0px;padding-top:.0px;margin-bott= om:.0px;padding-bottom:.0px">=C2=A0

I want= to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through some of th= e WG LC for other drafts.=C2=A0 We decided to wait until some of those disc= ussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Susan Hares

<= /span>

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@i= etf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr


_______________________________________________
Id= r mailing list
Idr@iet= f.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr


<= /div>
_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@i= etf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr






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HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A2DM9QAzHwZl; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 05:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-f177.google.com (mail-pg1-f177.google.com [209.85.215.177]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5E24130DDE; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 05:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-f177.google.com with SMTP id e6-v6so3855371pgv.2; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 05:27:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TmohcvRdzAqmW8oTFuiBy+VCSWf/iOgjwtnoOaiNGv0=; b=TsmJ8Fsj2DNMu/DOAFdsDVon8WyRBa75CX8SdJWeBeS4NAjtCNFF2xPuoHUmv0Uk4j 8kyumIXX19BAg9OS7bq6dB9wqODb4FYjj4eK+yTpoc5mVFAS2bgbhPArR3CKaxDZOMQR Dlva04czrAJHwfUN7gk9vWU3mBLmMn3utZCyalmHE+yl82QqR2M/v00Fsu6FuocM27yX V53aQucbmm31YNqFoCZWS2UdtDv4tb9cHLwxOuoRrke2byTTx5G6J9l6fML2CILy6q7l 4vt5evIFeadwJup0ohl3/33lCdCXFJoWNUCaLnsUWxyDDRPjL4MD1bt8ct9Qqe4Jzr9c +mVg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlGm9MMRrJ5MvkLpWP5K/fE95Sa+U4Wklok1Mr5Z8PpRbDNr0J5u wDLBIBJGtOLPOdE3ihKSzkOcc74BUpZcg3/KsYE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpecft1wr4O2Mb9Xihpcz2l9fMDgCQuQHQGgdH0X6s7nQnQ7pfRQsIeyF0zH5teo62Dl1SCNUXerMGeioSoDBmA= X-Received: by 2002:a65:498c:: with SMTP id r12-v6mr2003639pgs.112.1531398438032; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 05:27:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <7220CFF5-1AF7-4644-B078-E545BDF2E346@icloud.com> <242ed290-d6e9-41f9-931d-955e81f62f0d.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> <89530067-fe75-4301-ad0e-35f3891cbfaa.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> <28ef469c-19d6-43b8-a881-d697e7a8569c.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 14:27:05 +0200 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?= Cc: Idr , Gaurav Dawra , idr wg , lsvr-chairs , draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery , Susan Hares Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e89ae60570cc7b0a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:27:22 -0000 --000000000000e89ae60570cc7b0a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Xiaohu, Even most solid bag will break if you keep loading it with junk .... Best, R. On Thu, Jul 12, 2018, 12:18 =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88)= wrote: > Robert, > > Please see my response inline. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > From:Robert Raszuk > Send Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B)= 17:58 > To:=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) > Cc:Idr ; Gaurav Dawra ; idr > wg ; lsvr-chairs ; > draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery < > draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org>; Susan Hares < > shares@ndzh.com> > Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscover= y > > > > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 11:32 AM, =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89= =E5=85=88) > wrote: > What's LSVR in your mind? isn't it built on the existing BGP code base? > > > No. Please see LSVR charter: > > > *The LSVR protocol is intended as a self-standing routing protocol even i= f > using existing BGP transport mechanisms and encodings, or if sharing the > same transport session with other existing BGP address families. * > > Here we are proposing even tighter dependency ... information in BGP > Hellos to be critical element of LSVR operation. Today someone can very > easily move LSVR transport to say TI-BGP proposed separated at the port > level sessions. > > [Xiaohu] Sorry that I don't much understand your points. Did you mean tha= t > some information in the BGP Hello messages should be removed? If so, I'm > fully open to discuss with you about this. > > But if you add even single hard attachment to BGP for LSVR like proposed > TLVs it will become a hard anchor. > > > By the way, have you heard any interest on this mechanism from users of > the L2/L3VPN?:) > > You missed it ... it was not about their interest in LSVR or BGP Hellos > ... it was about their fear that something they do not need will impact > them due to bugs. > > [Xiaohu] Oh, my god. Some BGP users don't need multicast in their > networks, should we stop defining BGP extensions for multicast due to the > fears of potential bugs? > > Best regards, > Xiaohu > > > Cheers > R. > > > > > > Xiaohu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > From:Robert Raszuk > Send Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B)= 17:13 > To:=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) > Cc:Idr ; Gaurav Dawra ; idr > wg ; lsvr-chairs ; > draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery < > draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org>; Susan Hares < > shares@ndzh.com> > Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscover= y > > > BGP code is a BGP code and regardless if this is running on a router in > the Internet or in the MSDC , regardless if it comes from vendor X, Y or = Z > it is the same code base. > > It is *BAD* idea to now glue BGP code base with LSVR. And this is first > draft which attempts do so in a very subtle manner by proposing two TLVs. > > If we allow this to go through (because of sympathy to "reuse existing" > approach) the consequences down the road will be rather ugly for all BGP > based worlds (Internet, MSDC, but also enterprises with internal routing, > users of L2 and L3VPN etc ...). > > Thx, > R. > > > > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 11:06 AM, =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89= =E5=85=88) > wrote: > Robert, > > The mechanism as described in this draft is only targeted for the > MSDC where RFC7938 has been enabled. It's absolutely not targeted for the > global routing system:) > > Best regards, > Xiaohu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > From:Robert Raszuk > Send Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B)= 17:00 > To:=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) > Cc:Idr ; Gaurav Dawra ; idr > wg ; lsvr-chairs ; > draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery < > draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org>; Susan Hares < > shares@ndzh.com> > Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscover= y > > > And that is precisely what IMHO we should avoid. > > Clear separation from BGP global routing and BGP as IGP including LSVR is= : > > - extremely important for stability of the former > - very need for innovation and new features velocity of the latter > > Thx, > R. > > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:54 AM, =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89= =E5=85=88) > wrote: > Hi Gunter, > > Thanks for your email and suggestion. I believe the BGP peer discovery > mechanism as described in this draft is applicable to the use of BGP as I= GP > (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7938) and LSVR as well. > > Ketan, one co-auhtor of this draft would present this draft on the LSVR > session. > > Best regards, > Xiaohu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > From:Gunter Van De Velde > Send Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B)= 15:24 > To:Gaurav Dawra > Cc:idr wg ; lsvr-chairs ; > draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery < > draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org>; Susan Hares < > shares@ndzh.com> > Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscover= y > > LSVR realises that there is need for a neighbour and liveliness detection > mechanism, and is making effort to understand the particular LSVR > requirements for a solution. > > From a very high level perspective, there are few ways to address the > aspect of LSVR peer discovery and liveliness detection: > 1) Create something new > 2) Extend something existing > 3) Re-use something existing > > LSVR has no technology religion about any of these, and would like to > progress with a solution space that most > optimal answers the particular LSVR requirements. > > Within LSVR WG meeting at IETF102, there is time reserved to discuss abou= t > these matters, and if you feel interested, we could add this draft into t= he > agenda? > > Brgds, > G/ > > > > > > On 11 Jul 2018, at 19:39, Gaurav Dawra wrote: > > Hi Sue, > > Support. > > 1) Yes > 2) Yes, BGP is most commonly used in most DCs. However, it may have > applications beyond that. > 3) yes, in order to simplify operations for DCs. Single CP is needed. > 4) it should be reviewed by LSVR WG. > > Gaurav > > On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Susan Hares wrote: > > Greetings: > > > > This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for > draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16). > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/ > > > > The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response to > this email. I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors t= o > respond by July 7th. > > > > The WG should consider the following: > > 1) Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within > Data Centers? > > 2) Does this mechanism work for other deployments? > > > > 3) If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? > > Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc). > > > > 4) Does this interact with any of the LSVR work? > > > > I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through > some of the WG LC for other drafts. We decided to wait until some of tho= se > discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call. > > > > > > Susan Hares > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > > > > > > > --000000000000e89ae60570cc7b0a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Xiaohu,

Even= most solid bag will break if you keep loading it with junk ....

Best,
R.

On Thu, Jul 12, 20= 18, 12:18 =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) <xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> wrote:<= br>
Robert,

Please see my response inline.

--------------------------------------------= ----------------------
From:Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Se= nd Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B) 17:= 58
To:=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) <xiaohu.x= xh@alibaba-inc.com>
Cc:Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org>; Gaur= av Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com>; idr wg <idr@ietf.org>; l= svr-chairs <lsvr-chairs@ietf.org>; draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodi= scovery <draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@i= etf.org>; Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Subject:Re: [Idr] W= G adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery



On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 11:32 AM, =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4= =B9=89=E5=85=88) <xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> wrote:
What's LSVR in your m= ind? isn't it built on the existing BGP code base?

=

No. Please see LSVR charter:=C2=A0

The LSVR protocol is intended as a self-standing routi= ng protocol even if using existing BGP transport mechanisms and encodings, = or if sharing the same transport session with other existing BGP address fa= milies.=C2=A0

Here we are proposing even tighter dependency ... information in BGP = Hellos to be critical element of LSVR operation. Today someone can very eas= ily move LSVR transport to say TI-BGP proposed separated at the port level = sessions.=C2=A0

[Xiaoh= u] Sorry that I don't much understand your points. Did you mean that so= me information in the BGP Hello messages should be removed? If so, I'm = fully open to discuss with you about this.

But if you add even single hard attachment to BGP for = LSVR like proposed TLVs it will become a hard anchor.=C2=A0

=C2=A0
By th= e way, have you heard any interest on this mechanism from users of the L2/L= 3VPN?:)

You missed it ... i= t was not about their interest in LSVR or BGP Hellos ... it was about their= fear that something they do not need will impact them due to bugs.

[Xiaohu] Oh, my god. Some BGP= users=C2=A0don't need multicast in their networks, should we stop defi= ning BGP=C2=A0extensions for multicast due to the fears of potential bugs?<= /div>

Best regards,
Xiaohu


Cheers
R.



=C2=A0

Xiaohu

----------------------------------------------------------= --------
From:Robert Raszuk &l= t;robert@raszuk.net>
Sen= d Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B) 17:1= 3
To:=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99= =8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) <xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com>
Cc:Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org<= /a>>; Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com>; idr wg <idr@ietf= .org>; lsvr-chairs <lsvr-chairs@ietf.org>; draft-xu-idr-= neighbor-autodiscovery <draft-xu-idr-neighbor-= autodiscovery@ietf.org>; Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
<= div class=3D"m_-4768841588522204838m_-5621627023200128196clear: m_-47688415= 88522204838m_-5621627023200128196both">Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call f= or draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery


BGP code is a BGP code and regardless if this is ru= nning on a router in the Internet or in the MSDC , regardless if it comes f= rom vendor X, Y or Z it is the same code base.=C2=A0

It is *BAD*=C2= =A0 idea to now glue BGP code base with LSVR. And this is first draft which= attempts do so in a very subtle manner by proposing two TLVs.=C2=A0
<= div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
I= f we allow this to go through (because of sympathy to "reuse existing&= quot; approach) the consequences down the road will be rather ugly for all = BGP based worlds (Internet, MSDC, but also enterprises with internal routin= g, users of L2 and L3VPN etc ...).=C2=A0

Thx,
R.



On Thu, Jul 12= , 2018 at 11:06 AM, =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) &= lt;xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> wrote:
Robert,

The mechanism as described in th= is draft is only targeted for the MSDC=C2=A0where RFC7938 has been enabled.= It's absolutely not targeted for the global routing system:)

Best regards,
Xiaohu

-----------= -------------------------------------------------------
From:Ro= bert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Send Time:2018=E5=B9= =B47=E6=9C=8812=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B) 17:00
To:= =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) <xiaohu.xxh@alib= aba-inc.com>
Cc:Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org>; = Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com>; idr wg <idr@ietf.org>= ;; lsvr-chairs <lsvr-chairs@ietf.org>; draft-xu-idr-neighbor-au= todiscovery <draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscove= ry@ietf.org>; Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Subject:Re: [Idr= ] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

And that is precisely what IMHO we should avoid.=C2=A0

Cle= ar separation from BGP global routing and BGP as IGP including LSVR is:=C2= =A0

- extremely important for stability of the former=C2=A0
- very nee= d for innovation and new features velocity of the latter=C2=A0

Thx,
R.=

On Th= u, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:54 AM, =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88= ) <xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> wrote:
Hi Gunter,=C2=A0

Thanks for your = email and suggestion. I believe the BGP peer discovery mechanism as describ= ed in this draft is applicable to the use of BGP as IGP (https://= tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7938) and LSVR as well.=C2=A0

Ketan, one co-auhtor of th= is draft would present this draft on the=C2=A0LSVR session.

Best regards,
Xiaohu

----= --------------------------------------------------------------
From:Gunter Van De Velde <gu= ntervandeveldecc=3D40icloud.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Send Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C= =8812=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B) 15:24
To:Gaurav Dawra <gdawra.ietf@gmail.com= >
Cc:idr wg = <id= r@ietf.org>; lsvr-chairs <lsvr-chairs@ietf.org>; draft-x= u-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery <draft-xu-idr-nei= ghbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org>; Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com><= /div>
Subject:Re: [Idr] W= G adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

LSVR realises that t= here is need for a neighbour and liveliness detection mechanism, and is mak= ing effort to understand the particular LSVR requirements for a solution.= =C2=A0

From a very high level perspective, there are few= ways to address the aspect of LSVR peer discovery and liveliness detection= :
1) Create something new
2) Extend something existing<= /div>
3) Re-use something existing

LSVR has no techn= ology religion about any of these, and would like to progress with a soluti= on space that most=C2=A0
optimal answers the particular LSVR requ= irements.=C2=A0

Within LSVR WG meeting at IETF102,= there is time reserved to discuss about these matters, and if you feel int= erested, we could add this draft into the agenda?

= Brgds,
G/



=

On 11 Jul 2018, at 19:39, Gaurav Dawra <gdaw= ra.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Sue,

Support.

=
1) Yes
2) Yes, BGP is most commonly used in most DCs. = However, it may have applications beyond that.
3) yes, in order t= o simplify operations for DCs. Single CP is needed.
4) it should = be reviewed by LSVR WG.

Gaurav

On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 10:08 AM= , Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:

Greetings:

=C2=A0

This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbo= r-autodiscovery (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16).=C2=A0

=C2=A0

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-au= todiscovery/

=C2=A0

The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements i= n response to this email.=C2=A0 I hope the authors will ihelp their vacatio= ning co-authors to respond by July 7th.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The WG should consi= der the following:

1)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within Da= ta Centers?

2)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = Does this mechanism work for other deployments?

=C2=A0

3)=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If so, should be passed in BGP He= llo message?=C2=A0

Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BF= D, etc).

=C2=A0

4)=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Does this interact with any of the L= SVR work?

=C2=A0

I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted thr= ough some of the WG LC for other drafts.=C2=A0 We decided to wait until som= e of those discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption c= all.

=C2=A0<= /p>

=C2=A0

Su= san Hares


____________________________________________= ___
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/idr


_______________________= ________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

<= /div>


_____= __________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/idr






=

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21:07:36 +0800 Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 21:07:36 +0800 From: "=?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?=" To: "Robert Raszuk" Cc: "Idr" , "Gaurav Dawra" , "idr wg" , "lsvr-chairs" , "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery" , "Susan Hares" Reply-To: "=?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?=" Message-ID: <63d136b0-5ddc-4a67-b8e2-1376eddb1e55.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> X-Mailer: [Alimail-Mailagent revision 268][W4_5305839][v5ForWebDing][Safari] MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <7220CFF5-1AF7-4644-B078-E545BDF2E346@icloud.com> <242ed290-d6e9-41f9-931d-955e81f62f0d.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> <89530067-fe75-4301-ad0e-35f3891cbfaa.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> <28ef469c-19d6-43b8-a881-d697e7a8569c.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> , In-Reply-To: x-aliyun-mail-creator: W4_5305839_v5ForWebDing_QvNTW96aWxsYS81LjAgKE1hY2ludG9zaDsgSW50ZWwgTWFjIE9TIFggMTBfMTJfNikgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA0LjUuNiAoS0hUTUwsIGxpa2UgR2Vja28pIFZlcnNpb24vMTEuMC4zIFNhZmFyaS82MDQuNS42La Content-Type: 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X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY4PR0501MB3859 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-07-12_06:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1806210000 definitions=main-1807120153 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:33:25 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C938491F718AAC7BA07682D3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit While I think a BGP neighbor auto-discovery protocol would be useful in certain scenarios, I don't think the WG should adopt this document at the current time. There is so much overlap with the idr-lldp-peer-discovery draft that I don't see how the WG could adopt both of them.  The idr-neighbor-autodiscovery draft thus should not be adopted unless the intention is to reject the idr-lldp-peer discovery draft. Is that the intention?  I don't recall seeing much discussion comparing and contrasting the two. For neighbor auto-discovery, I'd think that the biggest issue by far would be security.  All this draft really suggests about security is "don't use this in any environment where it is possible for the Hellos to be spoofed".   A somewhat more detailed set of applicability restrictions would seem to be warraned. The draft does propose to use the Generalized TTL Security Mechanism on the BGP sessions established as a result of receiving Hellos, but doesn't seem to suggest using the GTSM on the Hellos themselves. Either way, whether GTSM actually provides any signficant amount of security would have to be examined. Even if there's no need for security in DC networks, what will happen when someone uses this to auto-discover neighbors on, e.g., an EVPN Broadcast Domain or other overlay.  Also, someone will want to use scoped IP multicast to allow the Hellos go to several hops, in order to auto-discover multi-hop EBGP peers.  (Compare to Targeted LDP Hellos.)  Are these possible use cases supposed to be prohibited?  How?  Is there even an analysis of DC networking security needs? I'm a little surprised to see LDP Hellos held up as model of something that is proven to work well.  In LDP, the Hello stuff is really a major complication (one might even say "a big mess"), because you have both "Hello adjacencies" and "session adjacencies", and you have to handle all the possible interactions between them. At least the LDP Hello stuff is an integral part of the LDP state machine; this sort of relationship between state machines is not really discussed in the idr-neighbor-autodiscovery draft. LDP Hellos are also a known security problem (especially, but not only, when targeted to non-neighboring nodes).  In fact Targeted LDP Hellos provide no value other than to create an attack vector. However, it is hard to remove the Targeted Hellos because the Hello mechanism is such an integral part of the LDP state machine.  We should make sure we don't drive BGP down the same road. The competition between BGP keepalives and periodic Hellos for deciding whether to bring the session down is also a potential source of problems that needs to be discussed. It is interesting that routes are automatically created due to receipt of Hellos.  But the talk of giving these routes a smaller admin distance than certain other routes is a bit scary.  Attempts to adjust the admin distance never seem to work quite right, and frequently have unintended side-effects.  Also, there's very little protection against having several mechanisms that each create routes under the assumption that their own routes will have a smaller admin distance than any other. I'm surprised to see the Hellos carrying a list of ASNs from which the transmitter will accept connections.  Isn't that a little like saying "I won't let you log in unless you type one of the following passwords"? Something needs to be said about interaction with existing BGP security measures (TCP-MD5), such as they are. My take on Sue's questions would be: > 1) Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within Data Centers? An autodiscovery mechanism certainly seems useful.  However, its use needs to be carefully restricted, and the applicability restrictions needs to be very clearly stated. > 2) Does this mechanism work for other deployments? Unknown.  It's somewhat surprising that this issue is not even addressed in the draft. >3) If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message?  Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc). Unknown.  It's somewhat surprising that this issue is not even addressed in the draft. BTW, it's not at all clear whether the "BGP Hello" mechanism can be regarded as part of the BGP protocol.  It seems like a brand new UDP-based mechanism, and adding it doesn't seem to be any simpler than adding a more generic neighbor discovery protocol. In the DC, one could also ask whether whatever procedure is used to tell a node what its IP address is should not also be used to tell it who its BGP neighbors are. > 4)Does this interact with any of the LSVR work? Unknown.  It's somewhat surprising that this issue is not even addressed in the draft. I think more work needs to be done on the draft before we can really evaluate whether it is a good basis for future work. --------------C938491F718AAC7BA07682D3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit While I think a BGP neighbor auto-discovery protocol would be useful in certain scenarios, I don't think the WG should adopt this document at the current time.

There is so much overlap with the idr-lldp-peer-discovery draft that I don't see how the WG could adopt both of them.  The idr-neighbor-autodiscovery draft thus should not be adopted unless the intention is to reject the idr-lldp-peer discovery draft. Is that the intention?  I don't recall seeing much discussion comparing and contrasting the two.

For neighbor auto-discovery, I'd think that the biggest issue by far would be security.  All this draft really suggests about security is "don't use this in any environment where it is possible for the Hellos to be spoofed".   A somewhat more detailed set of applicability restrictions would seem to be warraned.

The draft does propose to use the Generalized TTL Security Mechanism on the BGP sessions established as a result of receiving Hellos, but doesn't seem to suggest using the GTSM on the Hellos themselves.  Either way, whether GTSM actually provides any signficant amount of security would have to be examined.

Even if there's no need for security in DC networks, what will happen when someone uses this to auto-discover neighbors on, e.g., an EVPN Broadcast Domain or other overlay.  Also, someone will want to use scoped IP multicast to allow the Hellos go to several hops, in order to auto-discover multi-hop EBGP peers.  (Compare to Targeted LDP Hellos.)  Are these possible use cases supposed to be prohibited?  How?  Is there even an analysis of DC networking security needs?

I'm a little surprised to see LDP Hellos held up as model of something that is proven to work well.  In LDP, the Hello stuff is really a major complication (one might even say "a big mess"), because you have both "Hello adjacencies" and "session adjacencies", and you have to handle all the possible interactions between them.  At least the LDP Hello stuff is an integral part of the LDP state machine; this sort of relationship between state machines is not really discussed in the idr-neighbor-autodiscovery draft.

LDP Hellos are also a known security problem (especially, but not only, when targeted to non-neighboring nodes).  In fact Targeted LDP Hellos provide no value other than to create an attack vector.  However, it is hard to remove the Targeted Hellos because the Hello mechanism is such an integral part of the LDP state machine.  We should make sure we don't drive BGP down the same road.

The competition between BGP keepalives and periodic Hellos for deciding whether to bring the session down is also a potential source of problems that needs to be discussed. 

It is interesting that routes are automatically created due to receipt of Hellos.  But the talk of giving these routes a smaller admin distance than certain other routes is a bit scary.  Attempts to adjust the admin distance never seem to work quite right, and frequently have unintended side-effects.  Also, there's very little protection against having several mechanisms that each create routes under the assumption that their own routes will have a smaller admin distance than any other.

I'm surprised to see the Hellos carrying a list of ASNs from which the transmitter will accept connections.  Isn't that a little like saying "I won't let you log in unless you type one of the following passwords"?

Something needs to be said about interaction with existing BGP security measures (TCP-MD5), such as they are.
 
My take on Sue's questions would be:

> 1) Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within Data Centers?

An autodiscovery mechanism certainly seems useful.  However, its use needs to be carefully restricted, and the applicability restrictions needs to be very clearly stated.

> 2) Does this mechanism work for other deployments?

Unknown.  It's somewhat surprising that this issue is not even addressed in the draft.

> 3)  If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message?  Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc).

Unknown.  It's somewhat surprising that this issue is not even addressed in the draft. 

BTW, it's not at all clear whether the "BGP Hello" mechanism can be regarded as part of the BGP protocol.  It seems like a brand new UDP-based mechanism, and adding it doesn't seem to be any simpler than adding a more generic neighbor discovery protocol.

In the DC, one could also ask whether whatever procedure is used to tell a node what its IP address is should not also be used to tell it who its BGP  neighbors are.

> 4)   Does this interact with any of the LSVR work?

Unknown.  It's somewhat surprising that this issue is not even addressed in the draft.

I think more work needs to be done on the draft before we can really evaluate whether it is a good basis for future work.



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idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03EAE130F3C for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 11:59:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sXa7ncpo7fSa for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 11:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A311130DC5 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 11:59:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 580221E28F; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 14:58:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 14:58:55 -0400 From: Jeffrey Haas To: idr@ietf.org Message-ID: <20180712185855.GQ12853@pfrc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] Feedback on 5575-bis X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 18:59:11 -0000 As I promised Sue, I've done a thorough re-read of draft-ietf-idr-rfc5575bis. This re-read was partially prompted by recent work in my employer's implementation so this was very fresh. Here are my comments: : A Flow Specification received from an external autonomous system will : need to be validated against unicast routing before being accepted. : If the aggregate traffic flow defined by the unicast destination : prefix is forwarded to a given BGP peer, then the local system can : safely install more specific flow rules that may result in different : forwarding behavior, as requested by this system. Issue: Redirections may need additional scrutiny. While the destination based check on the received unicast routing is good, it's still possible for the external AS to influence forwarding beyond "rate-limit/drop" if scrutiny is not given to the other control communities. This issue is compounded with the redirect-ip feature, not in this document. I'd suggest this be mentioned in an operational security considerations section. : In many deployments of BGP Flow Specification, the Flow Specification : information has replace existing host length route advertisements. s/replace/replaced/. Also, it's unclear in the context of this paragraph why this is interesting. A bit of explanatory text explaining the use of such most-specific routes for redirecting traffic would be useful. : Experience with previous BGP extensions has also shown that the : maximum capacity of BGP speakers has been gradually increased : according to expected loads. Taking into account Internet unicast : routing as well as additional applications as they gain popularity. The last sentence is dangling. : Flow Specification components must follow strict type ordering by : increasing numerical order. A given component type may (exactly : once) or may not be present in the specification. If present, it : MUST precede any component of higher numeric type value. ... and what if they don't? Is it malformed? Should the implementation attempt to re-order? : All combinations of component types within a single NLRI are allowed, : even if the combination makes no sense from a semantical perspective. : If a given component type within a prefix in unknown, the prefix in : question cannot be used for traffic filtering purposes by the : receiver. Since a Flow Specification has the semantics of a logical : AND of all components, if a component is FALSE, by definition it : cannot be applied. However, for the purposes of BGP route : propagation, this prefix should still be transmitted since BGP route : distribution is independent on NLRI semantics. The issue here is when we encounter an unknown component, we can no longer verify the syntactic correctness of the NLRI. This means we will pass potentially invalid entries downstream. Downstream receivers must thus not drop the session, but should use treat-as-withdraw semantics. This issue in validation, as I tersely noted in a prior IDR thread, really needs discussion in the document. It impacts the ability to verify, to add new component types, and potentially cause invalid NLRI to propagate downstream. : The encoding is chosen in order to allow for future : extensibility. It should be mentioned that due to the property above that extensions are problematic. 4.2.3: : 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 : +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ : | e | a | len | 0 |lt |gt |eq | : +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ : : Numeric operator The 0 field is unclear what the expected behavior is when it's NOT zero. : a - AND bit. If unset, the previous term is logically ORed with : the current one. If set, the operation is a logical AND. It : should be unset in the first operator byte of a sequence. The AND : operator has higher priority than OR for the purposes of : evaluating logical expressions. It's not clear what should be done if AND is set in the first list entry. : len - length of the value field for this operand encodes 1 (00) - : 4 (11) bytes. Type 3 flow component values are always encoded as : single byte (len = 00). "always encoded" begs the question about what to do when it isn't. Being encoded as 4 bytes of length but a length of 1 is still correct, e.g. Does Postel's maxim apply here? 4.2.4 : Defines a list of {operator, value} pairs that matches source OR : destination TCP/UDP ports. This list is encoded using the numeric : operator format defined in Section 4.2.3. Values are encoded as : 1- or 2-byte quantities. It's not clear what to do if the encoding is > 2 byte. Ditto for sections 4.2.5, 4.2.6, etc. 4.2.9 has a similar "must be zero" set of bits that need to have their behavior specified. 4.2.11 : Defines a list of {operator, value} pairs used to match the 6-bit : DSCP field [RFC2474]. This list is encoded using the numeric : operator format defined in Section 4.2.3. Values are encoded : using a single byte. The two most significant bits are zero and : the six least significant bits contain the DSCP value. It's not specified what to do when the top two bits are set. 4.2.12 : +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ : | Reserved |LF |FF |IsF|DF | : +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ : : Bitmask values: : : Bit 7 - Don't fragment (DF) : : Bit 6 - Is a fragment (IsF) : : Bit 5 - First fragment (FF) : : Bit 4 - Last fragment (LF) While the general behavior of unexpected lengths is already unclear, it's even less clear here. Reserved behavior is not defined. "Must be zero on transmit, should be zero on receive?" It's also not specified whether this is "any of" or not. This impacts whether multiple bits being set is valid for some combinations. 5. : filtering (prevention of traffic-based, denial-of-service (DOS) : attacks, traffic filtering in the context of BGP/MPLS VPN service, : and centralized traffic control for SDN/NFV networks) requires The separate clauses here likely need to be semicolon separated since the first clause is a compound separated by a comma. Alternatively leave to the RFC editor to straight it out. : Section 8 has details on the limitation : of previous mechanisms and why BGP Flow Specification version 1 : provides a solution for to prevent DOS and aid BGP/MPLS VPN filtering : rules. I think this is the first time in the document this is referred to as v1 of the spec. : This Flow Specification NLRI defined above to convey information : about traffic filtering rules for traffic that should be discarded or : handled in manner specified by a set of pre-defined actions (which : are defined in BGP Extended Communities). This mechanism is : primarily designed to allow an upstream autonomous system to perform : inbound filtering in their ingress routers of traffic that a given : downstream AS wishes to drop. There's several bits of awkwardness in the above paragraph. But among them is the presumption of drop being the default choice in the last sentence. 5.1 : The relative order of two Flow Specification rules is determined by : comparing their respective components. The algorithm starts by : comparing the left-most components of the rules. The importance of whether the components are sorted becomes critical here. Given the semantic ambiguity of components the receiver is unable to decode (unknown), the length check also can't be applied here. This is mostly important for likely buggy cases where two NLRI are semantically identical but mis-ordered. Compare vs. the RFC 3107 withdraw ambiguities for label value some time ago. A trite example is consider two NLRI both containing the type 4 port field, both containing the same 1-byte value (e.g. 255), but one encoded using a single byte of length, the other with two bytes of length. Is this an implicit update or not? Somewhat similarly, duplicate components aren't specifically called out, but potentially implied (as noted in an IDR exchange) by the requirements of the sort order. Exactly what the behavior is in the face of duplicates should be specified. 6. : The underlying concept is that the neighboring AS that advertises the : best unicast route for a destination is allowed to advertise flow- : spec information that conveys a more or equally specific destination : prefix. Thus, as long as there are no more specific unicast routes, : received from a different neighboring AS, which would be affected by : that filtering rule. Observation: An address space hijack that is not filtered, e.g. advertisement of a more specific route, may prevent inter-as flowspec from validating. This might be worth putting in the operational considerations section. 7. : Multiple traffic actions may be present for a single NLRI. The : traffic actions are processed in ascending order of the sub-type : found in the BGP Extended Communities. If not all of them can be : processed the filter SHALL NOT be applied at all (for example: if for : a given flow there are the action communities rate-limit-bytes and : traffic-marking attached, and the plattform does not support one of : them also the other shall not be applied for that flow). Typo on platform. The extended communities defined are not only a given sub-type, but also a type field. The above suggestion is ambiguous about the case where the subtypes are equal but the types are distinct. I'm also wondering if the "applied at all" is the desired wording. Does that mean, as earlier presented in the draft, we get: : The default action for a traffic filtering Flow Specification is to : accept IP traffic that matches that particular rule. Or does it mean that the rule is ignored? The implications are different: A pass permits traffic to pass whereas ignore is effectively a "delete rule", which may cause traffic that would otherwise pass the filter to be impacted differently by subsequent rules. 7.1 : The remaining 4 octets carry the maximum rate information in IEEE : floating point [IEEE.754.1985] format, units being bytes per second. : A traffic-rate of 0 should result on all traffic for the particular : flow to be discarded. It is worth noting that while we could simply end up with preposterously large numbers, there is also the edge case that these floating point values may be NEGATIVE. The draft may wish to note that negative numbers should be one of: ignored (see prior comment about how this impacts rule order), or treated as zero (discard) 7.2 See 7.1 7.4 There's a level of ambiguity in what happens when there's more than one redirect extended community: : Interferes with: All other redirect functions. All redirect : functions are mutually exclusive. If this redirect function exists, : then no other redirect functions can be processed. We're allowed to install to any VRF: : If several local instances match this criteria, : the choice between them is a local matter but this is partially also interacting with the text from earlier: : Multiple traffic actions may be present for a single NLRI. The : traffic actions are processed in ascending order of the sub-type : found in the BGP Extended Communities. If not all of them can be : processed the filter SHALL NOT be applied at all So, consider the case where we have two redirect extended communities. If one of them does not have any matching VRFs, should the "SHALL NOT be applied at all" kick in? If both can be used, do we pick the first as implied by ascending order? Or do we take a wider reading of the 7.4 text and let the implementation just pick one? This indirectly raises a different point: For each of the action communities that aren't expected to allow multiple instances, how do you deal with the repeats? E.g. two traffic-rate extended communities? 7.6 covers the fact that only a single redirect community can be associated with a flowspec. However, given that some routers may have target:A working but not target:B and vice versa elsewhere, we shouldn't necessarily restrict this. 7.6.1 illustrates the idea that they are a conflict that should be treated as withdraw. I believe this is not the desired behavior. 9.2 Another reference to this being version 1. 13. s/MuPedro/Pedro/ -- Jeff From nobody Thu Jul 12 13:03:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04C0D130EDB; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 13:03:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wy4jDTa3ds4u; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 13:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92FF8130EA0; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 13:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id CABF71E28F; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 16:03:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 16:03:03 -0400 From: Jeffrey Haas To: Eric C Rosen Cc: Susan Hares , idr@ietf.org, draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org Message-ID: <20180712200303.GU12853@pfrc.org> References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 20:03:15 -0000 On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:35:12AM -0400, Eric C Rosen wrote: > There is so much overlap with the idr-lldp-peer-discovery draft that > I don't see how the WG could adopt both of them.  The > idr-neighbor-autodiscovery draft thus should not be adopted unless > the intention is to reject the idr-lldp-peer discovery draft. Is > that the intention?  I don't recall seeing much discussion comparing > and contrasting the two. And not contradicting any of Eric's other good points, we have other work happening outside of IDR that overlaps this auto discovery problem space: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-acee-ospf-bgp-rr/ Easy to say that it's a popular topic. :-) -- Jeff From nobody Thu Jul 12 14:34:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1721813119A; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 14:34:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zJ_91_qx-lka; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 14:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x530.google.com (mail-pg1-x530.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::530]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBD5513118E; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 14:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x530.google.com with SMTP id p23-v6so4133601pgv.13; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 14:34:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=xY94oNkhKeQJSN2QyqB2dqu46GTl0Znuh/DTXL3/Ckk=; b=PNriI+ElDxNDMrH8jRliUGMjurWfIpBuJa+qZ+EUsrG2E8HFsiC0yocJMHnbfoVK5S iXyvTVyj+DP+rAYL7qNxRR4gGYAGvYc7gp+loq7cfX1fc9WeRmALrLUCe1lO+vojKMxD jAUG4DeVwB/yX0roQej1W9uIvdbzKfUKMEYWBZ3Z6p78J0tnGAaQzmjJOQOPP9O/ISw1 qZu73Q/mzG4ECcVht+5ZSZTKtDwPaRxXs2/iLWO1OxXNhr7xGX9Jk3oApkONumLXvVA1 jpCmkiEGtj91/GRZMhQlAdFqlFPj/TKqc6rIDJwQp/DI35whIwCoAQrHpBQZP8FQ+jkC 7NHg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xY94oNkhKeQJSN2QyqB2dqu46GTl0Znuh/DTXL3/Ckk=; b=ofSWOtNDtLmkAEyXHXDkmFud11OiihV1MzygiJYrYIBLhFDAT7DfmKPIpYOgMO1ctz PNlB3mZerrb1sh/Rtlkbe0D2SeHBIFQSauvg1v8O8Z4mb30+WBdgSOYAGNN6MqZdYX0c 3VYbY3xjA/fP9TnGOt7MIBKLS5xhjlYEYb7fg9ojiigauz2nOCYdPtsUt001oXsgyjkb UrqLSLZrpgdiZSr8G3BKtMW+h4Ry4j12sfsUa5pF4JIHrEhfAdS5/C9t4sQKQ0RFSHeo bAPeFkwocvw5toK8UEtOhwPfPTD+6Hm6yuyu+FmwV+5+mXXTQNYDDEWqSSgH5hLrGo3N Z05Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlHHogJw0oabo/F3QME03iP24nK4pn7dIbkGuZPNgX6SYzJJUUqP RgM3UyRyfKEs52O3NIhXoUnGn01FWRuUK/3hsFg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfJ1+T6vPmoey7vbyFbGhSH8JfF1EofPlmDxlvoFcrV4rP2IQxv4/icMY1qCsJ5OyCne76a4wiqillxd31P/dw= X-Received: by 2002:a65:5c83:: with SMTP id a3-v6mr3585101pgt.164.1531431259099; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 14:34:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a17:90a:709:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 14:34:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20180712200303.GU12853@pfrc.org> References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <20180712200303.GU12853@pfrc.org> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 23:34:12 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: zBtqv8hJ1KNkIu-559Zk9NewRP8 Message-ID: To: Jeffrey Haas Cc: Eric C Rosen , idr wg , draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery , Susan Hares Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003259210570d4204c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 21:34:23 -0000 --0000000000003259210570d4204c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Very good point Jeff - thx for bringing this one up too in this context. One thing however in this entire thread is very blurry and mixed line between what is useful for BGP itself and what is specifically useful for the cases of BGP deployments in MSDCs. The fundamental reason why Petr shared the idea of using BGP in large scale DCs was redundant flooding reduction of native link state protocols as well as lowest common denominator across OEM vendors supporting high speed L3 switches/routers for DC fabric. With that let's face it .. there is perhaps only handful of MSDCs in the world which technically still needs to use BGP as dynamic reachability protocol. Rest of them would be much better using either: * native link state protocols possibly with proposed by Tony Li flooding reduction * native link state protocols possibly with proposed by Naiming flooding optimizations for DCs * Russ's proposal for ISIS in openfabric * (apologies if I missed any other work here) and for those really brave: * run RIFT If folks having 10 or 100 or 1000 nodes in the spine of their DCs don't want to feel any smaller the FB or MS or Amazon I think they are just fine to either run BGP as is or be most advanced and support fork of BGP to be focused on DCs - call it DC-BGP which would run different code base then real WAN BGP optimized for small and medium data centers fabrics and would includ use of different TCP ports. LSVR could be placed in that category. Thx, R. PS, Most of configuration tasks in any well operated network is all automated. I am missing the real practical need for any auto-configuration or auto-discovery enhancements for real data centers where provisioning tool is in place. Is this for Wild Wild West type of fabrics where spine or super spine or TORs get mounted and connected at random then someone expects that turning it on is all what is needed to improve the fabric's bandwidth ? On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:03 PM, Jeffrey Haas wrote: > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:35:12AM -0400, Eric C Rosen wrote: > > There is so much overlap with the idr-lldp-peer-discovery draft that > > I don't see how the WG could adopt both of them. The > > idr-neighbor-autodiscovery draft thus should not be adopted unless > > the intention is to reject the idr-lldp-peer discovery draft. Is > > that the intention? I don't recall seeing much discussion comparing > > and contrasting the two. > > And not contradicting any of Eric's other good points, we have other work > happening outside of IDR that overlaps this auto discovery problem space: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-acee-ospf-bgp-rr/ > > Easy to say that it's a popular topic. :-) > > -- Jeff > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > --0000000000003259210570d4204c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Very good = point Jeff - thx for bringing this one up too in this context.=C2=A0
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif= ;font-size:small">
One thing however in this en= tire thread is very blurry and mixed line between what is useful for BGP it= self and what is specifically useful for the cases of BGP deployments in MS= DCs.=C2=A0

The fundame= ntal reason why Petr shared the idea of using BGP in large scale DCs was re= dundant flooding reduction of native link state protocols as well as lowest= common denominator across OEM vendors supporting high speed L3 switches/ro= uters for DC fabric.=C2=A0

With that let's face it .. there is perhaps only handful of MSDCs = in the world which technically still needs to use BGP as dynamic reachabili= ty protocol. Rest of them would be much better using either:=C2=A0

* native link state protocols = possibly with proposed by Tony Li flooding reduction
* native link state protocols possibly with proposed by Naiming flooding = optimizations for DCs
* Russ's proposal for ISI= S in openfabric=C2=A0
* (apologies if I missed any = other work here)

and f= or those really brave:=C2=A0

* run RIFT

If= folks having 10 or 100 or 1000 nodes in the spine of their DCs don't w= ant to feel any smaller the FB or MS or Amazon I think they are just fine t= o either run BGP as is or be most advanced and support fork of BGP to be fo= cused on DCs - call it DC-BGP which would run different code base then real= WAN BGP optimized for small and medium data centers fabrics and would incl= ud use of different TCP ports. LSVR could be placed in that category.=C2=A0=

Thx,
R.

PS, Most of configuration tasks = in any well operated network is all automated. I am missing the real practi= cal need for any auto-configuration or auto-discovery enhancements for real= data centers where provisioning tool is in place. Is this for=C2=A0Wild Wi= ld West type of fabrics where spine or super spine or TORs get mounted and = connected at random then someone expects that turning it on is all what is = needed to improve the fabric's bandwidth ?=C2=A0


On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:03 PM, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 12,= 2018 at 10:35:12AM -0400, Eric C Rosen wrote:
> There is so much overlap with the idr-lldp-peer-discovery draft that > I don't see how the WG could adopt both of them.=C2=A0 The
> idr-neighbor-autodiscovery draft thus should not be adopted unless
> the intention is to reject the idr-lldp-peer discovery draft. Is
> that the intention?=C2=A0 I don't recall seeing much discussion co= mparing
> and contrasting the two.

And not contradicting any of Eric's other good points, we have o= ther work
happening outside of IDR that overlaps this auto discovery problem space:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-= acee-ospf-bgp-rr/

Easy to say that it's a popular topic. :-)

-- Jeff

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

--0000000000003259210570d4204c-- From nobody Thu Jul 12 15:00:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27EFC1311C5; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:00:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id adaHds7Vv-Em; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x532.google.com (mail-ed1-x532.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::532]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 436FF1311BF; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x532.google.com with SMTP id g12-v6so23021772edi.9; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:00:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JF7LDWb9AqSHDf8Pd2/pSVhadLZrEngCE5IY0ntKc7o=; b=YADPlqvo2514j1G0N4o3BK3BtAyuywxiMlC+xaHYXqShQTE5LMBBYMW8SsgVW02IVU acuesBAEd0Y972dLubwdQtsHW+1LOMdtJnaeJzL37ueb3alPk5ZTAx4s6slAXMcwNi7W dz2eq6RvDE16WQxArlv2cPxL5G5nceJ1KoxpKVc8+6hPV3QOc/vlErjcd4P7u2h/qzH1 dIgwNUYRN2hZn6ZEbQo1dr/9jx0JnrK57AzgSX+rqLihYf7CU0v0OYYekuzCvnT25HSl PPTh8t5ipVDeRLohMIP8zHzklEicqffT6rWh/k3Tq/ZsquZL4lnzyOJq296NYQpChiYU ADEA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JF7LDWb9AqSHDf8Pd2/pSVhadLZrEngCE5IY0ntKc7o=; b=cQ8X3yPc9VBAxPTODnR8misDjBaovMxGlbEeGF0r0/lL0pyABpYxJy2gBrzaDkHgDp XBZ/6/Fu9c11HksVWZ+kB+mUNAxgDw4Tg+Q0vBKOYPmSecHqbUTm6LphwE3YKY2k/QQ1 CAYJbYy/XsYKWbCBfoShijM9wPay3P7H8+ijf8NVTh4YHw1fu/BVUSoAOX2ntt3oWxzK L/wN3fhM+BLWEBqF+e9uRTQgSA16jC5oJAMaz4fsPxQIHI/9ngbyRyIGknws+MsquRPs BWT8KLZmtdgWUe1iSXbc/V9PA/BmsLzBd+EgwuYQvf9gZ/B30RkrNMbXFykaoPLzQ8O6 yPdA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlEhpAMsnY927/S4/cylKJGeL/F+Kq18r3Gfny3sKhWsOvEI8PiH YBQl+XhlCUxXbK1Bvu+xbI1H2yGP9ZlDySUoWhtC7g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcpp2A1fVIsY7sW1bhvPHnjm2chtUPmRfdastgOekSXLGYNcC5eVi+Y3GaRQaNfuS3wvqpvdQuyw0NEUknPcMY= X-Received: by 2002:a50:81a4:: with SMTP id 33-v6mr4094292ede.200.1531432844947; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:00:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <20180712200303.GU12853@pfrc.org> In-Reply-To: From: Tony Przygienda Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:00:08 -0700 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Jeffrey Haas , idr wg , draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org, Sue Hares Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b876de0570d47e36" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 22:00:49 -0000 --000000000000b876de0570d47e36 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > and for those really brave: > > * run RIFT > > You probably meant to say "for those who actually want to be able to run something that exists". For people interested in code I can encourage hackathon102 participation. We're aiming to got a first interop hello 3-way up and probably ZTP :-P Gee, that used to be all "rough consensus and running code". One got definitiely more contentious and the other gets harder and harder to find these days ... Otherwise, on the issue, unsurprisingly, I fully concur with Eric, especially it maybe quite enlightening to go through a small exercise of trying to extend the BGP neighbor FSM with the suggested change ... thanks --- tony --000000000000b876de0570d47e36 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


and for those really brave:=C2=A0

* run RIFT

You probably meant to say "= ;for those who actually want to be able to run something that exists".= For people interested in code I can encourage hackathon102 participation. = We're aiming to got a first interop hello 3-way up and probably ZTP :-P=

Gee, that used to be all "rough consensus and runni= ng code". One got definitiely more contentious and the other gets hard= er and harder to find these days ...

Otherwis= e, on the issue, unsurprisingly, I fully concur with Eric, especially it ma= ybe quite enlightening to go through a small exercise of trying to extend t= he BGP neighbor FSM with the suggested change=C2=A0 ...

= thanks

--- tony
--000000000000b876de0570d47e36-- From nobody Thu Jul 12 15:10:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D79F11311D3; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:09:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WUOzHpCS-GPU; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x232.google.com (mail-pf0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C1FB1311BD; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x232.google.com with SMTP id x10-v6so11516322pfm.4; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:09:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=qKAAWbettfZAOV4DhNK/JoLgAtvydCbXJPZniZioz8Q=; b=ON32ALSN0vrflDOiqpo7F5yTUWBT+9iWP1Y3TZipWJiVPTawVViziiP74q6yiD1G+l 8dpzQGMFRxVsoHRq1nmxs0zexKJDIM5/lDsovO5pwhxqa2e1zHKXk+dyuCvQK4QPtZeP QFXiJ7tatjWtiQXN3DmzIMWuCiAN1b3o2jAQ2dJpYsloYkY211y2KcHjeqDprXjaJ9Xo SfhxI2L2CrsOCLGF7bI6DkWq831fu4BwHjuikn3NfS8kV8WhqFg2tEodVRgiwP+BhV3p oQtDCFBugqwTNBZCVYctMwcRquvd7l/2iyAoSBGOKMCXyyvJAo6rsDNCoUbjrx9+komg vhuw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qKAAWbettfZAOV4DhNK/JoLgAtvydCbXJPZniZioz8Q=; b=Y0OjIZ35q2aS8cBjKGiFhsvFxrzsNfkW0i3T4NKfCMAx+ZGdoAQ+dxh3uSLoU06Kfu z5JrGqNF2RXr7k32fKOyjvncaQFQ9bq9lAkJjOy6iFxJttPBpbiLpj+k26u4003WdAgE 1fiLOib3KmpEIH1QpjzZFtajjVTOmW+ffx8KAmh2gvrZVZaiy9RMDCpj/Ob8ElZXvGGn tUqdisd5TbKRqRYAG2j5t1bvcNhFr1VMnY28YrZZcMy17iSNgj6jzeqr0NQl53398Gvu mlOEmQ19SP3ZlTcCc066HAImrdABIuk7pcB9B5Dj0f+E1+bfkp5lFaCflHFz1K5GKHoF D6yg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlGrAFBgY6MHoh1wDEmtdLhoQ9EkA5Y36ER9pFuP4cyhYwyJKz5a eNfAbJ2gOgJ4x50HcMWcTx1IszcPehZTXjV0D7q+6A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpeUIhKG+1oiaRIj9LyXGbsZU13gtpYObm2R7QglM6qdnJKdPpoq4kWEiviCweT5BiBByajtsA35TrkD3RhUX8U= X-Received: by 2002:a65:5c83:: with SMTP id a3-v6mr3670078pgt.164.1531433396949; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:09:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a17:90a:9c3:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:09:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <20180712200303.GU12853@pfrc.org> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 00:09:56 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: DUD5VHJLUJkkv59W_Onb27PRrbc Message-ID: To: Tony Przygienda Cc: Jeffrey Haas , idr wg , draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery , Sue Hares Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009f5b490570d49f26" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 22:09:59 -0000 --0000000000009f5b490570d49f26 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hey Tony, Honestly and in the public I do want to state that if given a choice of keep "enhancing" real BGP focusing on DCs vs running RIFT the latter wins without any doubt. As long as RIFT is solid and available to run on most of the OEM vendors and is supported in any common white box operating systems other then code maturity I would not see any issues to run it for most DCs that really need such optimal dynamic routing. Thx, R. On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 12:00 AM, Tony Przygienda wrote: > > >> and for those really brave: >> >> * run RIFT >> >> > You probably meant to say "for those who actually want to be able to run > something that exists". For people interested in code I can encourage > hackathon102 participation. We're aiming to got a first interop hello 3-way > up and probably ZTP :-P > > Gee, that used to be all "rough consensus and running code". One got > definitiely more contentious and the other gets harder and harder to find > these days ... > > Otherwise, on the issue, unsurprisingly, I fully concur with Eric, > especially it maybe quite enlightening to go through a small exercise of > trying to extend the BGP neighbor FSM with the suggested change ... > > thanks > > --- tony > --0000000000009f5b490570d49f26 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --0000000000005783110570e613f9-- From nobody Fri Jul 13 12:39:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96672128BAC; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 12:39:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ak14CzWtcoZC; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 12:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22e.google.com (mail-lj1-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91613130F40; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 12:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22e.google.com with SMTP id 203-v6so14296734ljj.13; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 12:39:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DByQoeiqjUKr276wbaLhiHpPA36FCI86XijNKxHI2tQ=; b=lSRWY5co8+PZrTuy4TwqjpL5H7rRgLDDsPgpFhkqgvnrl+6ymNZPmjuhGz1G5cO80p X09Nzaz51OA/Mx1YqknWRrMpQ5z3SxHJlvRqjLe5e+6CzqYKbYT+p7ruFfd5ffIqyv61 ROdulsH+kaVV6uTAVLfCvdcTw7ZScP8IbWe4WLePULPTL9iU5yXy3lh7FPazypZPoC+M YkwuqeIIt7KskGmgnXQGrTL9fltpCZ9BQgcNU6dgIFfo07cfPf1GX0fPGgTo4bKcXgTX WGxDoef0QuGQ+yqHb8Hy4+Lu2KxKCiDjKhWevgXLptz1v11pXBeOU9fgQyeSm3CCMi+S wtYA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DByQoeiqjUKr276wbaLhiHpPA36FCI86XijNKxHI2tQ=; b=jHujWRZQEJzQzOADVLsbkDwEOxns5PVqy3YnmV0RA9xZYCDFgmmIRvd2epxqJMkpbb jpwyFmpWT3DeYRO/C+3vBHsnDC9uiRiGc5+aSC0gVpomn41uWQ+9pHe8+SdRfzHeL3mv Pj7kYfOgvFK40Y2PoErnvgMmUHILKDtLMlMiJsIimclMLrqGfMEdfxLMK0bD+AsOhfCg Ug5dqq+/pKypNFcqtECLYdYzpYl2bfVsrbJPWj6EnIfYBUZG6r3B05Y65gKSIF0n0E+/ hZfsiXs3cTXzoHVvJZaZvaMMcInpx8tg50m4HDaaul5AR0tuH/lIkIbswe8Z+JPdC0UE uO/w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlEpbkQ9vuUMDFmx8QXDxbhKh2Yt8fuo5uOWArzonoGNPpF5a9s3 uHn3fKGAtZAjzBP6vnjq07GVk+LZzmPiAe2yaL8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfUYF4gW1YhkklDEM+imnnfX3KQviSuWe3zWBRVC3CbRtMdORqtfXrd+8R3oPMDheeJ9xQY280ThgjPVqJRvKA= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9105:: with SMTP id m5-v6mr3998789ljg.121.1531510744628; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 12:39:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:8003:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 12:39:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <6ACB426F-D10D-43E2-BC12-2D41D0CCE88A@arrcus.com> From: Nikos Triantafillis Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 22:39:03 +0300 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Keyur Patel , "idr@ietf.org" , "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org" , Susan Hares Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e741de0570e6a132" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 19:39:10 -0000 --000000000000e741de0570e6a132 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Inline marked #NT. On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Hey Nikos, > > >> My suggestion is to implement discovery mechanism outside BGP. >> > > #NT: This is restrictive and requires those running only BGP, to run yet > another mechanism/protocol IMO needlessly > > When you are designing a data center there is much much more then BGP for > underlay you need to worry about. The choice of what protocol to use from > TORs towards compute nodes and from TORs towards the spine or how to > exchange reachability between spines is just white noise at most (if you > seriously looking at complete data center design). > #NT: A lot of data centers don't run a protocol from ToRs towards compute nodes. The DC world comes in many flavors ;-) > > Then there is orchestration layer to manage the compute or storage > infrastructure etc ... Some DCs use overlays some use only flat host routes > in the underlay etc .. Then there are those DCs still running a lot of > native multicast with expectations to move to BIER soon etc ... So let's > not use such arguments of "single protocol" for DC as this is just not > correct if you consider the full DC architecture. > #NT: Please read more carefully what I wrote. I didn't make such a blanket statement of "single protocol" for all DCs as you are making out my statement to be:-) Also, if you have DC architecture examples where the proposed mechanism fails or is not sufficient, then we should discuss. > - - - > > Back to your proposal - the way I read it nothing prevents me today to > blasts the BGP Hellos over logical interfaces for any AFI/SAFI you like as > far as I like - correct ? Eric pointed this out as well yesterday. Is that > intentional or accidental? Also can multicast address from "all routes on > the subnet" be modified by the implementation to any other multicast > address ? If so then you can discover bunch of other cool things in your > multicast domain - all with BGP ! > #NT: Agreed, Eric made some valid points. The draft needs work to spell out what the intention is in areas of concern and we will do that. > > Btw in number of deployments UDP is blocked in the fabric or on TORs by > ACLs at the interface level. So to make sure this works folks need to punch > wholes in the ACLs. > #NT: IMO this is irrelevant in the context of the draft. It's an operational issue for those specific deployments and a much simpler one to address than asking someone to run yet another protocol if the functionality could be provided by enhancing the existing one they run. That's my take on that. > > Last it is often the case today - when running no overlay - to advertise > dynamically VMs or LXCs addresses to TORs via routing protocol - say BGP. > What happens when now the LXCs or VMs will start sending such BGP Hellos > directly to TORs ? Do you envision that this proposal will automatically > establish BGP sessions with those tenant entities if they happen to be on > the same subnet then compute node itself ? > #NT: Do you need to enable such functionality on the VMs or LXCs? > > Bottom line is that we do not know really what complete set of > functionality (both intended and accidental) are we having the WG > acceptance call for. The document is missing so much text that at this > stage IMO it is not eligible for any IETF WG adoption pool. > > Thx, > R. > --000000000000e741de0570e6a132 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Inline marked #NT.

On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Robert Raszuk <robe= rt@raszuk.net> wrote:
Hey Nikos,
=C2=A0

My suggestion is to implement discov= ery mechanism outside BGP.


#NT: This is restricti= ve and requires those running only BGP, to run yet another mechanism/protoc= ol IMO needlessly

When you are designing a data center there is much much more th= en BGP for underlay you need to worry about. The choice of what protocol to= use from TORs towards compute nodes and from TORs towards the spine or how= to exchange reachability between spines is just white noise at most (if yo= u seriously looking at complete data center design).=C2=A0

#NT: A lot of data centers don't run a prot= ocol from ToRs towards compute nodes. The DC world comes in many flavors ;-= )
=C2=A0

=
Then there is orchestration layer to manage the compute or storage infrast= ructure etc ... Some DCs use overlays some use only flat host routes in the= underlay etc .. Then there are those DCs still running a lot of native mul= ticast with expectations to move to BIER soon etc ... So let's not use = such arguments of "single protocol" for DC as this is just not co= rrect if you consider the full DC architecture.=C2=A0

#NT: Please read more carefully what I wrote. I didn= 't make such a blanket statement of "single protocol" for all= DCs as you are making out my statement to be:-)=C2=A0 Also, if you have DC= architecture examples where the proposed mechanism fails or is not suffici= ent, then we should discuss.
=C2=A0
- - -=C2=A0

Back to your proposal - the way I r= ead it nothing prevents me today to blasts the BGP Hellos over logical inte= rfaces for any AFI/SAFI you like as far as I like - correct ? Eric pointed = this out as well yesterday. Is that intentional or accidental? Also can mul= ticast address from "all routes on the subnet" be modified by the= implementation to any other multicast address ? If so then you can discove= r bunch of other cool things in your multicast domain - all with BGP !=C2= =A0

#NT: Agreed, Eric made some= valid points. The draft needs work to spell out what the intention is in a= reas of concern and we will do that.
=C2=A0

Btw in number of deployments UDP is blo= cked in the fabric or on TORs by ACLs at the interface level. So to make su= re this works folks need to punch wholes in the ACLs.=C2=A0

#NT: IMO this is irrelevant in the context of = the draft. It's an operational issue for those specific deployments and= a much simpler one to address than asking someone to run yet another proto= col if the functionality could be provided by enhancing the existing one th= ey run. That's my take on that.
=C2=A0

Last it is often the case today - when r= unning no overlay - to advertise dynamically VMs or LXCs addresses to TORs = via routing protocol - say BGP. What happens when now the LXCs or VMs will = start sending such BGP Hellos directly to TORs ? Do you envision that this = proposal will automatically establish BGP sessions with those tenant entiti= es if they happen to be on the same subnet then compute node itself ?=C2=A0=

#NT: Do you need to enable suc= h functionality on the VMs or LXCs?
=C2=A0

Bottom line is that we do not know reall= y what complete set of functionality (both intended and accidental) are we = having the WG acceptance call for. The document is missing so much text tha= t at this stage IMO it is not eligible for any IETF WG adoption pool.=C2=A0=

Thx,
R.

Hey Tony,

<= /div>
Honestly and in the public I do want to state that = if given a choice of=C2=A0 keep "enhancing" real BGP focusing on = DCs vs running RIFT the latter wins without any doubt.=C2=A0

As long as RIFT is solid and availab= le to run on most of the OEM vendors and is supported in any common white b= ox operating systems other then code maturity I would not see any issues to= run it for most DCs that really need such optimal dynamic routing.=C2=A0

Thx,
R.



On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 12:00 AM, T= ony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com> wrote:


and for those r= eally brave:=C2=A0

* run RIFT


You probably meant to say "for those who actually want = to be able to run something that exists". For people interested in cod= e I can encourage hackathon102 participation. We're aiming to got a fir= st interop hello 3-way up and probably ZTP :-P

Gee, that = used to be all "rough consensus and running code". One got defini= tiely more contentious and the other gets harder and harder to find these d= ays ...

Otherwise, on the issue, unsurprising= ly, I fully concur with Eric, especially it maybe quite enlightening to go = through a small exercise of trying to extend the BGP neighbor FSM with the = suggested change=C2=A0 ...

thanks=

--- tony

--0000000000009f5b490570d49f26-- From nobody Thu Jul 12 15:31:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A12361311F6; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:31:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Vbj5YWulOnJ; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:31:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x531.google.com (mail-ed1-x531.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::531]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 890E11311E8; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x531.google.com with SMTP id e19-v6so23066494edq.7; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:31:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=XEkeJN3e2IQPDswZVd6L2fU5ICqPniLnvXzy/oRJMWs=; b=nClHuOPhLe9uGddrdFm4hvdmFk9OTY30ZFPqfUmGeO6+KLLiajT5xUlZoX6sm3H8Rs ZfmtWJlKlRxjpL0tUhBrhkJm8414z7yDR5J44DpLJwz7IhbMP5wlgpVOUi8BzItZ2XYx aPn3kD8+2Nw4tf+bQ2+a+UQf5azkiQzcTMs8qcunfmK9nWlqDtuscDSR8HbpUUsJltU5 nek5RZGwwA5/6osiE/UqnqsM9YQULfkC1Aog4b7oRjyzAQcXSi2GnK6F1KB4dwB5/Wv7 uGgZObcONHs5wsjfctaF7oDjx+TO/i7g6XbK8L3P9TFXW3IvbGEEDs/GRplAaof5ESnD NYNg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XEkeJN3e2IQPDswZVd6L2fU5ICqPniLnvXzy/oRJMWs=; b=NnqMDZwaRV4fc72wvmyrhg8OcCGOr1uZisbVHcmtcLyAE5p1P8NQyJLscoBGkN1aPO wrALlcSY3ooZyeDlQr0ZwmFHuX3JRMqb91puoh/4G6NOXPCslf7MjL3DZNkEfP5mrWfa 08rMmoiyFscUFPX0y+XnhzvJ9OTI8flvlnRxHJbfqiilDr59M4nYD148jXXK4HBBX9hv 5gW7xwpEMXjDx9b/YhW9C5LiiMxVceyUkbKnMKTqhpSCxmJSnvZlCNCPud8Y8yefz5OA aRUpy2O5cDWwa/dq3uJ36da+GkgmDmJSJQ3tWn2cuXSdQ6kHlmg2zJqtJd1knsGUT0rt qJcQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlF/rbV8VIRylDbSQ4L97ia/Duw43p6HrJOiFNOxvtchlClgQvkj EeA7t3nP/Uc/ruJKVoZVJNHsun+x3K7xb5miOO8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpdT0VKP90eCfcZEyZyCnOmsZWuoQ8IkZqi1hrbXjzrBYsahriL1bfi1ire8WdgxSkMiHzrWYng5zEIRS8sCDy4= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:c4cf:: with SMTP id p15-v6mr4347286edr.240.1531434706172; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:31:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <20180712200303.GU12853@pfrc.org> In-Reply-To: From: Tony Przygienda Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:31:09 -0700 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Jeffrey Haas , idr wg , draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org, Sue Hares Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a87dd60570d4eda3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 22:31:51 -0000 --000000000000a87dd60570d4eda3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 3:09 PM Robert Raszuk wrote: > Hey Tony, > > Honestly and in the public I do want to state that if given a choice of > keep "enhancing" real BGP focusing on DCs vs running RIFT the latter wins > without any doubt. > > First, you saw that my message (as often) was tongue in cheek ;-) And what you wrote is a somewhat suprising, interesting (and probably quite sane ;-) take from you ... > As long as RIFT is solid and available to run on most of the OEM vendors > and is supported in any common white box operating systems other then code > maturity I would not see any issues to run it for most DCs that really need > such optimal dynamic routing. > > well, code you can download today publicly from a reputable vendor ;-) runs on Linux & OSX ;-) so you can imagine lots of stuff is quite easily possible ;-) Leaf version is not as eye-wateringly trivial as Babel but very easy for link-state (unless you run a really poor fabric where you may end up with lots of disaggregation all the time, that's something no protocol will fix for you) and we see what comes out the hackathon but I would venture a public domain python for a small fanout switch or server could do just fine, maybe with a bit of Cython thrown in ... So I think it's very approachable contrary to building a full fledged link-state @ high perf which as we know is a bit of a arcane martial art ;-) Have a peek @ https://github.com/brunorijsman/rift-fsm otherwise ... Maturity is always an issue but thankfully the problem is far more constrained than generic problem @ very large scale like ISIS solved. The sooner people start to soak it, the better we'll be off ... And to your point, if you have a very mature, very scalable codebase that you start to "enhance for the better for a use-case orthgonally opposed to original protocol design" you may likely end up with a much more interesting problem of possibly kicking over lots deployed, happy folks. You have much more experience there than I'll ever care to have ... And per my perception the selling point of RIFT isn't really "optimal" [whichever optimal we mean here] in first place but zero OPEX, that's the real problem most organizations are solving building fabrics (that I see) rather than the few industry giants equiped with almost infinite resources and belaguered by hoards of candidates looking for employment ;-) well, I don't mean to hijack the thread and did enough promotional plugin and we do have a list so before the IDR chairs go after me, I'm out ;-) --- tony --000000000000a87dd60570d4eda3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu= , Jul 12, 2018 at 3:09 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
Hey Tony,

Honestly and in the publi= c I do want to state that if given a choice of=C2=A0 keep "enhancing&q= uot; real BGP focusing on DCs vs running RIFT the latter wins without any d= oubt.=C2=A0


First, you saw= that my message (as often) was tongue in cheek ;-)

And w= hat you wrote is a somewhat suprising,=C2=A0 interesting (and probably quit= e sane ;-) take from you ...
=C2=A0
As long as RIFT is solid and = available to run on most of the OEM vendors and is supported in any common = white box operating systems other then code maturity I would not see any is= sues to run it for most DCs that really need such optimal dynamic routing.= =C2=A0


well, code you can d= ownload today publicly from a reputable vendor ;-) runs on Linux & OSX = ;-) so you can imagine lots of stuff is quite easily possible ;-)=C2=A0
Leaf version is not as eye-wateringly trivial as Babel but = very easy for link-state (unless you run a really poor fabric where you may= end up with lots of disaggregation all the time, that's something no p= rotocol will fix for you) and we see what comes out the hackathon but I wou= ld venture a public domain python for a small fanout switch or server could= do just fine, maybe with a bit of Cython thrown in ... So I think it's= very approachable contrary to building a full fledged link-state @ high pe= rf which as we know is a bit of a arcane martial art ;-)

= Have a peek @ https://= github.com/brunorijsman/rift-fsm otherwise ...

Maturity is always an issue but thankfully the problem is far more co= nstrained than generic problem @ very large scale like ISIS solved. The soo= ner people start to soak it, the better we'll be off ... And to your po= int, if you have a very mature, very scalable codebase that you start to &q= uot;enhance for the better for a use-case orthgonally opposed to original p= rotocol design" you may likely end up with a much more interesting pro= blem of possibly kicking over lots deployed, happy folks. You have much mor= e experience there than I'll ever care to have ...

A= nd per my perception the selling point of RIFT isn't really "optim= al" [whichever optimal we mean here] in first place but zero OPEX, tha= t's the real problem most organizations are solving building fabrics (t= hat I see) rather than the few industry giants equiped with almost infinite= resources and belaguered by hoards of candidates looking for employment ;-= )

well, I don't mean to hijack the thread and did eno= ugh promotional plugin and we do have a list so before the IDR chairs go af= ter me, I'm out ;-)

--- tony
=C2=A0
--000000000000a87dd60570d4eda3-- From nobody Thu Jul 12 18:59:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73DC5130DDC; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 18:59:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wFZsfOTSYydl; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 18:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-x233.google.com (mail-pl0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5AC06130F06; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 18:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-x233.google.com with SMTP id 6-v6so11457698plb.0; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 18:59:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=TeUSP0wqgQwk1qb41WKWp3M091ipTkewwf6mp8xWY/w=; b=B4hBoHDIN9ZLLvF/Rqn/kFrEmJE9JyBrB/YTx6fOc300JBbpuIJCctKBHruXV0NHGb xq/g37kUQR5KslGfCGcTXb8VQXnHK73PrJRkqZjv8x+hiGMgNcsL5IQprRSfoR8hWpYi ottamDrU5BcBL3W2xK5lgl/fzAD3FlkrTfuAqAq+iVhq7XBg2XgRoCR9wUY2aXDYidZK 5xGrG1NkY9EsVs+Nkch15+5zHyo/UcF0Nqf/MV4gK+Mpg7RAPrZcXFKy7a4TQVRe4pGP r/RYEiCgTs74l0BYZYPoicoMtfrOjn2BAkhJ133YgflWDFVW+5E53F8lE/AboWXOO8rK 33Rg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=TeUSP0wqgQwk1qb41WKWp3M091ipTkewwf6mp8xWY/w=; b=S+rLDp9nvFEB68NH6m++DFYhq+pp5cflBoTW/I9UxAQBVaKToFpuRpA/7roaLFNZdi XKnE5ejWXrMRgK1M1Z6wDaBxRveYjOawcBEpc/IcfoVxpju1TgBRh5EddlzZFvS3bfHm v79kmXi7alRruu+cXOG6xU03sI4lh8vKQbAX5Rxbelwzzj/FYeuHpsXNs7WBLo+bO3Jm NpkeiWwxotuWTUbjFLsberNOZGMz8Q51k/5eDtDp7fRFQq5tFvwEfURTWEG8Qd0q46v2 nKByMuJ6z8bZBbjObTK1yPI/LyAyJwk5+BIu5wya2k26s+W4xykIswfIWPVeeRfN6ADY 4yUg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlE6DbI24rcpfMcDOzTdEa5cSQoey1F/mIq0ySTwHdOtsX0aO8Js QBLjX69o5Ur1afy5Uq0S/ecOcXVQ X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpdzuttTequ0wykWdC7e7B/Oc5XBpJ4OW/7R5DyG4BMPWK7e9iJbiJCPVzF7vfRhbE/9/H1a/Q== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:1703:: with SMTP id i3-v6mr4308208pli.263.1531447157779; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 18:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2607:fb90:4e8c:7705:acaf:6c:264:9c9b? ([2607:fb90:4e8c:7705:acaf:6c:264:9c9b]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y9-v6sm32054668pgv.31.2018.07.12.18.59.16 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 12 Jul 2018 18:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-73814E4C-70AD-471C-8A4B-C891AA09223E Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Jeff Tantsura X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15F79) In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 18:59:14 -0700 Cc: Jeffrey Haas , Eric C Rosen , idr wg , draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery , Susan Hares Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <20180712200303.GU12853@pfrc.org> To: Robert Raszuk Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 01:59:22 -0000 --Apple-Mail-73814E4C-70AD-471C-8A4B-C891AA09223E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Run RIFT it is!!! (Sorry, I=E2=80=99m biased ;-)) =46rom my personal experience - most mid size guys are either running BGP in= the underlay already or looking forward to moving to it. They do need AD functionality, and the proposal being discussed is trying to= provide the solution. Regards, Jeff > On Jul 12, 2018, at 14:34, Robert Raszuk wrote: >=20 >=20 > Very good point Jeff - thx for bringing this one up too in this context.=20= >=20 > One thing however in this entire thread is very blurry and mixed line betw= een what is useful for BGP itself and what is specifically useful for the ca= ses of BGP deployments in MSDCs.=20 >=20 > The fundamental reason why Petr shared the idea of using BGP in large scal= e DCs was redundant flooding reduction of native link state protocols as wel= l as lowest common denominator across OEM vendors supporting high speed L3 s= witches/routers for DC fabric.=20 >=20 > With that let's face it .. there is perhaps only handful of MSDCs in the w= orld which technically still needs to use BGP as dynamic reachability protoc= ol. Rest of them would be much better using either:=20 >=20 > * native link state protocols possibly with proposed by Tony Li flooding r= eduction > * native link state protocols possibly with proposed by Naiming flooding o= ptimizations for DCs > * Russ's proposal for ISIS in openfabric=20 > * (apologies if I missed any other work here) >=20 > and for those really brave:=20 >=20 > * run RIFT >=20 > If folks having 10 or 100 or 1000 nodes in the spine of their DCs don't wa= nt to feel any smaller the FB or MS or Amazon I think they are just fine to e= ither run BGP as is or be most advanced and support fork of BGP to be focuse= d on DCs - call it DC-BGP which would run different code base then real WAN B= GP optimized for small and medium data centers fabrics and would includ use o= f different TCP ports. LSVR could be placed in that category.=20 >=20 > Thx, > R. >=20 > PS, Most of configuration tasks in any well operated network is all automa= ted. I am missing the real practical need for any auto-configuration or auto= -discovery enhancements for real data centers where provisioning tool is in p= lace. Is this for Wild Wild West type of fabrics where spine or super spine o= r TORs get mounted and connected at random then someone expects that turning= it on is all what is needed to improve the fabric's bandwidth ?=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:03 PM, Jeffrey Haas wrote: >> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:35:12AM -0400, Eric C Rosen wrote: >> > There is so much overlap with the idr-lldp-peer-discovery draft that >> > I don't see how the WG could adopt both of them. The >> > idr-neighbor-autodiscovery draft thus should not be adopted unless >> > the intention is to reject the idr-lldp-peer discovery draft. Is >> > that the intention? I don't recall seeing much discussion comparing >> > and contrasting the two. >>=20 >> And not contradicting any of Eric's other good points, we have other work= >> happening outside of IDR that overlaps this auto discovery problem space:= >>=20 >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-acee-ospf-bgp-rr/ >>=20 >> Easy to say that it's a popular topic. :-) >>=20 >> -- Jeff >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Idr mailing list >> Idr@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr >=20 --Apple-Mail-73814E4C-70AD-471C-8A4B-C891AA09223E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Run RIFT it is!!!
 (Sorry, I=E2=80= =99m biased ;-))
=46rom my personal experience - most mid size guys are e= ither running BGP in the underlay already or looking forward to moving to it= .
They do need AD functionality, and the proposal being discussed i= s trying to provide  the solution.

Regards,
Jeff

On Jul 12, 2018, at 14:34, Robert Ra= szuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrot= e:


Very good point Jeff - thx for bringing thi= s one up too in this context. 

One thing however in this entire thread is very blurry and mixed li= ne between what is useful for BGP itself and what is specifically useful for= the cases of BGP deployments in MSDCs. 

The fundamental reason why Petr shared the idea of usin= g BGP in large scale DCs was redundant flooding reduction of native link sta= te protocols as well as lowest common denominator across OEM vendors support= ing high speed L3 switches/routers for DC fabric. 

With that let's face it .. there is perhaps o= nly handful of MSDCs in the world which technically still needs to use BGP a= s dynamic reachability protocol. Rest of them would be much better using eit= her: 

* native link s= tate protocols possibly with proposed by Tony Li flooding reduction
* native link state protocols possibly with proposed by Naimi= ng flooding optimizations for DCs
* Russ's proposal f= or ISIS in openfabric 
* (apologies if I missed a= ny other work here)

and f= or those really brave: 

* run RIFT

If folks h= aving 10 or 100 or 1000 nodes in the spine of their DCs don't want to feel a= ny smaller the FB or MS or Amazon I think they are just fine to either run B= GP as is or be most advanced and support fork of BGP to be focused on DCs - c= all it DC-BGP which would run different code base then real WAN BGP optimize= d for small and medium data centers fabrics and would includ use of differen= t TCP ports. LSVR could be placed in that category. 

Thx,
R.

PS, Most of configuration tasks in any well operated netw= ork is all automated. I am missing the real practical need for any auto-conf= iguration or auto-discovery enhancements for real data centers where provisi= oning tool is in place. Is this for Wild Wild West type of fabrics wher= e spine or super spine or TORs get mounted and connected at random then some= one expects that turning it on is all what is needed to improve the fabric's= bandwidth ? 


On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:03 PM, Je= ffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:35:12AM -0400, Eric C Rosen w= rote:
> There is so much overlap with the idr-lldp-peer-discovery draft that > I don't see how the WG could adopt both of them.  The
> idr-neighbor-autodiscovery draft thus should not be adopted unless
> the intention is to reject the idr-lldp-peer discovery draft. Is
> that the intention?  I don't recall seeing much discussion compari= ng
> and contrasting the two.

And not contradicting any of Eric's other good points, we have other w= ork
happening outside of IDR that overlaps this auto discovery problem space:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ac= ee-ospf-bgp-rr/

Easy to say that it's a popular topic. :-)

-- Jeff

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

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10:04:08 +0800 Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 10:04:08 +0800 From: "=?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?=" To: "Jeff Tantsura" , "Robert Raszuk" Cc: "Jeffrey Haas" , "Eric C Rosen" , "idr wg" , "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery" , "Susan Hares" Reply-To: "=?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?=" Message-ID: <7412776b-b86a-46ab-b49f-0cee5e98e067.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> X-Mailer: [Alimail-Mailagent revision 268][W4_5305839][v5ForWebDing][Safari] MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <20180712200303.GU12853@pfrc.org> , In-Reply-To: x-aliyun-mail-creator: W4_5305839_v5ForWebDing_QvNTW96aWxsYS81LjAgKE1hY2ludG9zaDsgSW50ZWwgTWFjIE9TIFggMTBfMTJfNikgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA0LjUuNiAoS0hUTUwsIGxpa2UgR2Vja28pIFZlcnNpb24vMTEuMC4zIFNhZmFyaS82MDQuNS42La Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=ALIBOUNDARY_31388_511c0940_5b480898_21999c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] =?utf-8?q?WG_adoption_call_for_draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autod?= =?utf-8?q?iscovery?= X-BeenThere: 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b=QXf1kAc13TW6d10L2hUndcKOhAtesBCQgWtixXp3L49XdF2AMBKjnZHpEqnH6bdQgVz5gndCFOhzwQ8DVX7iGTg6fCMcI5iyT7n/iW14bUv9EMw1vXZI4F07mMZDF6YFjNuxOQWjUyMhKbO7zXOBmgk/MrdRyrE0WaaEEhNqkik= X-Alimail-AntiSpam: AC=PASS; BC=-1|-1; BR=01201311R691e4; CH=green; FP=0|-1|-1|-1|0|-1|-1|-1; HT=e01e01546; MF=xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com; NM=1; PH=DW; RN=5; SR=0; TI=W4_5305839_v5ForWebDing_0AC26464_1531449819764_o7001c6545; Received: from WS-web (xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com[W4_5305839_v5ForWebDing_0AC26464_1531449819764_o7001c6545]) by e01l07390.eu6 at Fri, 13 Jul 2018 10:57:31 +0800 Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 10:57:31 +0800 From: "=?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?=" To: "Jeffrey Haas" , "Eric C Rosen" Cc: "Susan Hares" , "idr" , "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery" Reply-To: "=?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?=" Message-ID: <79e465fc-bf5f-4dec-a97f-4eeeaf215e1b.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> X-Mailer: [Alimail-Mailagent revision 268][W4_5305839][v5ForWebDing][Safari] MIME-Version: 1.0 References: 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OmJvdGg7Ij48c3BhbiAgc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OlRhaG9tYSxBcmlhbCxTVEhlaXRpLFNp bVN1bjtmb250LXNpemU6MTQuMHB4O2NvbG9yOiMwMDAwMDA7Ij48YnIgPjwvc3Bhbj48L2Rpdj48 L2Rpdj48L2Rpdj4= ------=ALIBOUNDARY_60671_4f038940_5b48151b_21c254-- From nobody Thu Jul 12 20:23:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 119EB130E5C; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 20:23:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M301jnusA1IF; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 20:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8ED01127148; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 20:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml708-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 9DE2B576DE88F; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 04:22:59 +0100 (IST) Received: from DGGEML405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.49) by lhreml708-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.49) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 04:23:00 +0100 Received: from DGGEML510-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.43]) by dggeml405-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.3.17.49]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:22:57 +0800 From: Mach Chen To: Susan Hares , "idr@ietf.org" CC: "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Thread-Index: AdQSJcQmPylai0FFTx6TtuTV7fzVrQIMsG/g Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 03:22:57 +0000 Message-ID: References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.194.201] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE2924E7267dggeml510mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 03:23:09 -0000 --_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE2924E7267dggeml510mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sue, I have read the draft and think it's valuable, support the adoption of it. Best regards, Mach From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2018 1:09 AM To: idr@ietf.org Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org Subject: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Greetings: This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscove= ry (July 2 - July 16). https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/ The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response to t= his email. I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors to r= espond by July 7th. The WG should consider the following: 1) Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within D= ata Centers? 2) Does this mechanism work for other deployments? 3) If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc). 4) Does this interact with any of the LSVR work? I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through some= of the WG LC for other drafts. We decided to wait until some of those dis= cussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call. Susan Hares --_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE2924E7267dggeml510mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= Hi Sue,

=  

= I have read the draft and th= ink it’s valuable,  support the adoption of it.

=  

= Best regards,

= Mach

=  

From: Idr [mailto:idr-= bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2018= 1:09 AM
To: idr@ietf.org
Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-au= todiscovery@ietf.org
Subject: [Idr] WG adoption c= all for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

 

Greetings:

 

This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neigh= bor-autodiscovery (July 2 – July 16). 

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbo= r-autodiscovery/

 

The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements i= n response to this email.  I hope the authors will ihelp their vacatio= ning co-authors to respond by July 7th. 

 

The WG should consider the following:

1)      Does BGP need to have an autod= iscovery mechanism for peers within Data Centers?

2)      Does this mechanism work for o= ther deployments?

 

3)      If so, should be passed in BGP= Hello message? 

Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP= , BFD, etc).

 

4)      Does this interact with any of= the LSVR work?

 

I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sort= ed through some of the WG LC for other drafts.  We decided to wait unt= il some of those discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call.

 

 

Susan Hares

--_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE2924E7267dggeml510mbxchi_-- From nobody Thu Jul 12 22:03:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91B3A12777C; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 22:03:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dNt1iSOBe1eX; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 22:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x229.google.com (mail-lf0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 12829124D68; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 22:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x229.google.com with SMTP id j8-v6so26104662lfb.4; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 22:03:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=gSJjWbHHFWcKeJSpQLh/Ma0FyaMzUXaFsT0RShofrEU=; b=GUYV6hUufYCyluaa0KTcHN02/h2dJhDGny5TZdF/oiwtpFuY+ing/RVfFvMIMdpFqT ogA/5eelLTRz7oj1OT0IpeqVao/LfSMl7I6MwlVAWtXEYYvGNQvHwFxB8EpQQX4XlddQ qn5sRvcFi3grjdBHWApQDpBuAuM4TJkM8f78ev5VX9zPs/NpcgBd7dzg1EYc9Snh4gNP two8aVihgP4NZYq34MRLQ7X8feNR4sFzDy+GxK9A+bE4fiRaf9MmHJlWf3ZUW/GQzFoy aceXkbL+fZWhtP6kW0sqWZnLz99xC/4QNIDVUhFcPyBvUJS9Zw8YwwnKIixgEd5fouqq p0Jw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=gSJjWbHHFWcKeJSpQLh/Ma0FyaMzUXaFsT0RShofrEU=; b=Hli3TZXR7Qcg4NOIHG37lpT6hmUdoVm8CyVRb/nuOvybigQ6DbbZZzh8kT9I4ExdGd RTFouYmfJgLEboZF4vvISurqfhXiNsZw463NrIDusK5VuNba2GRmSG5KJdgIE1t49Z5Y ekN42j7SvXy9mXYd/Tm1DDFP4Is39oZ+nMYfhEAqN/1ouYPNzkhkS4XX1lZI7h4OGYry p1IJ+7Ih2XpKDk+2o2mNgT4eb4oleQQ1lnmkNpQyWofASygxlUYLBgahqobMHkpZQQBo 0qaQ3bZ9Qrhf3mKvL6CDDpcW3K1mHayEy++vVAw21MWIMk1MawK4gf1mEz8WlZ5dVtWs Uhgg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlGb/9SFTWTsscWkPtVSwtWaTDg7pGysCbut6+bSargQ6SypbxB5 Ap6XbMb1nVggXcEE0ey4QB7xUt+cz/MMUuElgIDkeg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfCrY6cSxQy4Ey7aRDmy7duO0Wg/uCnKPEzyxVVFQv0ugZFfh/rpYa6kou/JMPTA/s7z6F4yVicg9RA1nQj/lM= X-Received: by 2002:a19:e40d:: with SMTP id b13-v6mr3923568lfh.141.1531458190105; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 22:03:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:ab3:d68:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 22:03:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> From: Gaurav Dawra Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 22:03:09 -0700 Message-ID: To: Susan Hares Cc: idr wg , draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000068e6f80570da6536" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 05:03:15 -0000 --00000000000068e6f80570da6536 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, While I think having a BGP neighbor auto-discovery protocol would be useful in DCs. There is a potential scaling issue to process hello messages as a number of BGP sessions scale increases. Proper handling of proposed hello messages needs to be addressed first. Cheers, Gaurav > > On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Susan Hares wrote: > >> Greetings: >> >> >> >> This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodisc= overy >> (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16). >> >> >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/ >> >> >> >> The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response t= o >> this email. I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors = to >> respond by July 7th. >> >> >> >> The WG should consider the following: >> >> 1) Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers >> within Data Centers? >> >> 2) Does this mechanism work for other deployments? >> >> >> >> 3) If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? >> >> Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc). >> >> >> >> 4) Does this interact with any of the LSVR work? >> >> >> >> I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through >> some of the WG LC for other drafts. We decided to wait until some of th= ose >> discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call. >> >> >> >> >> >> Susan Hares >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Idr mailing list >> Idr@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr >> >> > --00000000000068e6f80570da6536 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

While I think having a BGP neigh= bor auto-discovery protocol would be useful in DCs.
There is a potential scaling issue to proc= ess hello messages as a number of BGP sessions scale increases.
P= roper handling of proposed hello messages needs to be addressed first.

Cheers,

Gaurav

On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 10:08= AM, Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com> wrote:

Greetings:

=C2=A0

This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodis= covery (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16).=C2=A0

=C2=A0

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autod<= wbr>iscovery/

=C2=A0<= /u>

The authors of this draft should send their I= PR statements in response to this email.=C2=A0 I hope the authors will ihel= p their vacationing co-authors to respond by July 7th.=C2=A0 =

=C2=A0

The WG should consider the following:

1)=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Does BG= P need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within Data Centers?

2)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Does this mechanism work for other deployments? <= /u>

=C2=A0

3)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If so, should be passed in BGP Hello mess= age?=C2=A0

Or should it be a part of another protocol = (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc).

=C2= =A0

4)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Does this interact with any of the LSVR work?

=C2=A0

= I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through some= of the WG LC for other drafts.=C2=A0 We decided to wait until some of thos= e discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Susan Hares <= u>


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Idr@ietf.org
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[Alimail-Mailagent revision 268][W4_5305839][v5ForWebDing][Safari] MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com>, <6ACB426F-D10D-43E2-BC12-2D41D0CCE88A@arrcus.com> In-Reply-To: <6ACB426F-D10D-43E2-BC12-2D41D0CCE88A@arrcus.com> x-aliyun-mail-creator: W4_5305839_v5ForWebDing_QvNTW96aWxsYS81LjAgKE1hY2ludG9zaDsgSW50ZWwgTWFjIE9TIFggMTBfMTJfNikgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA0LjUuNiAoS0hUTUwsIGxpa2UgR2Vja28pIFZlcnNpb24vMTEuMC4zIFNhZmFyaS82MDQuNS42La Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=ALIBOUNDARY_50040_55765940_5b48482e_224f9d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] =?utf-8?q?WG_adoption_call_for_draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autod?= =?utf-8?q?iscovery?= X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 06:35:52 -0000 ------=ALIBOUNDARY_50040_55765940_5b48482e_224f9d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" 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Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JM1N6xgLeuIa; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 00:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x229.google.com (mail-pf0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A649130DCC; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 00:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x229.google.com with SMTP id e13-v6so8758308pff.7; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 00:18:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=+gtkICw0pn2Mwtk47GUB0qiVmmwQ44FVEyxnbqFT0/E=; b=ZRyuxqymRaF/wOP1iCJXHS9ERAIbkn0U+UKYOAlSi3SApcFp+BAZFMTszv4S9zeXvT 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X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpf4gJpb2ATWWMVFIUnjkwY3Syggi03GTIRYUSJmQ4eSQzreZk8/wtx5d93O8pobkoOKGToD19UOTZtMOvuDzEY= X-Received: by 2002:a63:3444:: with SMTP id b65-v6mr4929079pga.396.1531466303591; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 00:18:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a17:90a:9c3:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 00:18:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7c667976-f8cb-4cac-aa7f-4568178e0dee.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <6ACB426F-D10D-43E2-BC12-2D41D0CCE88A@arrcus.com> <7c667976-f8cb-4cac-aa7f-4568178e0dee.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 09:18:22 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: o6K0lR5Z_gb4Gcd7Khw2mm68vjI Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?= Cc: Keyur Patel , Susan Hares , "idr@ietf.org" , "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000002d9470570dc4977" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 07:18:26 -0000 --00000000000002d9470570dc4977 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > BTW, what makes you believe that the BGP Hello message is within BGP or > included in BGP?:) > =E2=80=8BBecause the proposal is for IDR WG and is being asked for adoption= by IDR WG. If you move the proposal to RTGWG and not recommend using UDP port 179 I think it may go smooth as is. Thx, R.=E2=80=8B --00000000000002d9470570dc4977 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
BTW, what m= akes you believe that the BGP Hello message is within BGP or included in BG= P?:)

=E2=80= =8BBecause the proposal is for IDR WG and is being asked for adoption by ID= R WG.=C2=A0

If you mov= e the proposal to RTGWG and not recommend using UDP port 179 I think it may= go smooth as is.=C2=A0

Thx,
R.=E2=80=8B
--00000000000002d9470570dc4977-- From nobody Fri Jul 13 07:11:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BE72130DD0; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 07:11:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1bKSRatGC6sI; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 07:11:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26E7412F1A6; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 07:11:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fdynW-0000wV-0S; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 14:11:50 +0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 10:11:49 -0400 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Jeffrey Haas Cc: Eric C Rosen , idr@ietf.org, draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org, Susan Hares In-Reply-To: <20180712200303.GU12853@pfrc.org> References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <20180712200303.GU12853@pfrc.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/25.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 14:11:58 -0000 a lot of discovery of discovery. can we get three deep? :) seems to me that this partiular approach brings all the chattiness and scalability problems of igps (which, for example tli is working on) into bgp. this may not be a good thing. randy From nobody Fri Jul 13 07:13:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43DC1130DDF; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 07:13:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost 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=?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYJTdmN/KAqDcYgEjDiBaCR1jHGEVkKCOhSBZgsjhEkCF4I?= =?us-ascii?q?4ITQYAQIBAQIBAQJtHAyFNgEBAQEDHQYKTBACAQgRAwECKwICAjAdCAEBBAE?= =?us-ascii?q?NBYMgAYEbZA+pNoEuhFuFQB0FiQKCFoERJwyCKTWDGQIDAYEpARIBP4JhMYI?= =?us-ascii?q?kAohRkQsJAoYIhGGEPI1lijmHNAIRFIEkHThhcXAVOyoBgj4JiwyFPm+JfIE?= =?us-ascii?q?fgRoBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,347,1526342400"; d="scan'208,217";a="423272289" Received: from rcdn-core-8.cisco.com ([173.37.93.144]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 13 Jul 2018 14:13:27 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com (xch-rtp-011.cisco.com [64.101.220.151]) by rcdn-core-8.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6DEDQbq018295 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 13 Jul 2018 14:13:27 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) by XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com (64.101.220.151) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 10:13:26 -0400 Received: from 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Jul 2018 07:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A428130DF3 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 07:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fdz9Q-000122-EB; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 14:34:28 +0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 10:34:28 -0400 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" Cc: Interminable Discussion Room In-Reply-To: References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <6ACB426F-D10D-43E2-BC12-2D41D0CCE88A@arrcus.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/25.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 14:34:31 -0000 > I don=A2t think we should settle on this auto-discovery mechanism at > this point just because they were the first to ask for adoption. > There are trade-offs for the various auto-discovery techniques as > mentioned in the thread. someone should do a presentation on the dimensions and desiderata in this space. maybe schedule it in lsvr. oh, wait randy From nobody Fri Jul 13 08:06:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB752130E0E; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 08:06:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.711 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, 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<0PBT00400EIU4P00@st13p11im-asmtp004.me.com>; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 17:20:05 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=icloud.com; s=04042017; t=1531502405; bh=4miTa8xhgMMGr8Y4C5oJEQG915+zJZp0XZLNuLODtxU=; h=From:Message-id:Content-type:MIME-version:Subject:Date:To; b=h+T9IqcbIFK9iya1aDWTaagEBkzwngqgEMknKTXb/YoONdTcYqPtQ77OCueIccHu4 2PW9O3ALw3zMHYGWThCnyGmJvDSHcLCswhRv2bIF7F+pnNCWIJbAuo9ZWFVxk4g9lE 1njDUyJKgHQPYGuVkdK8R8QjD8obVTmujX9FuAkViPbrh9UVarSX3RTxzI2KefVh2c LbB6L70ifUQUdq7jj8H/gyUT3ZCGSLaU11MaWhwSFA6rlp1W8ui1ymF1OW0qX3RYQK Md+tyYz29mDHT0aOUO+WVwrSVOANEyXSa+iI1UuN7A8mCU5Dn0N1Ed3+pXzbxirQTi ezcPN6lOyZOnA== Received: from icloud.com ([127.0.0.1]) by st13p11im-asmtp004.me.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.1.2.20170607 64bit (built Jun 7 2017)) with ESMTPSA id <0PBT00BRAETC3N10@st13p11im-asmtp004.me.com>; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 17:20:04 +0000 (GMT) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:,, definitions=2018-07-13_06:,, signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 suspectscore=3 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1807130151 From: Gunter Van De Velde Message-id: <70B18447-2E4F-4896-BB1E-148242A837E8@icloud.com> Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_731C8391-162D-4555-A3F4-FB3341396EC8" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 19:19:59 +0200 In-reply-to: Cc: Keyur Patel , Susan Hares , "idr@ietf.org" , "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org" , lsvr@ietf.com To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <6ACB426F-D10D-43E2-BC12-2D41D0CCE88A@arrcus.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 17:20:10 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_731C8391-162D-4555-A3F4-FB3341396EC8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 +1 Next week LSVR WG will have a discussion detailing auto-discovery = problem-space/requirements.=20 Properties as e.g. scaling, simplicity and generic usability are taken = into consideration. imo it seems too early to adopt/settle on a solution, while we have = options available ("create something new", "augment something existing" = or "reuse something existing") G/ > On 13 Jul 2018, at 16:13, Acee Lindem (acee) = wrote: >=20 > Hi Sue, et al,=20 > =20 > I don=E2=80=99t think we should settle on this auto-discovery = mechanism at this point just because they were the first to ask for = adoption. There are trade-offs for the various auto-discovery = techniques as mentioned in the thread.=20 > =20 > Thanks, > Acee > =20 > From: Idr > on = behalf of Keyur Patel > > Date: Friday, July 13, 2018 at 1:44 AM > To: Susan Hares >, IDR List = > > Cc: "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org = " = > > Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery > =20 > Hi Sue, > =20 > While I think the BGP discovery work is import, I don=E2=80=99t think = WG should adopt this document at this time. My answers are further = inlined #Keyur. > =20 > From: Idr > on = behalf of Susan Hares > > Date: Monday, July 2, 2018 at 11:10 AM > To: "idr@ietf.org " > > Cc: "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org = " = > > Subject: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery > =20 > Greetings: <> > =20 > This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16).=20 > =20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/ = > =20 > The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response = to this email. I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing = co-authors to respond by July 7th.=20 > =20 > The WG should consider the following: > 1) Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers = within Data Centers? > =20 > #Keyur: Yes. > =20 > 2) Does this mechanism work for other deployments?=20 > =20 > #Keyur: Yes. > =20 > 3) If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? =20 > Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc). > =20 > #Keyur: It should not be included in BGP (or any BGP Hello messages). = Any such mechanism within BGP will 1) conflict with existing = keepalives and 2) impose scale issues when it comes to supporting large = number of BGP peers.=20 > =20 > My suggestion is to implement discovery mechanism = outside BGP. > =20 > 4) Does this interact with any of the LSVR work?=20 > #Keyur: Yes it does. > =20 > Regards, > Keyur > =20 > =20 > I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through = some of the WG LC for other drafts. We decided to wait until some of = those discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption = call. > =20 > =20 > Susan Hares > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr = --Apple-Mail=_731C8391-162D-4555-A3F4-FB3341396EC8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 +1

Next = week LSVR WG will have a discussion detailing auto-discovery = problem-space/requirements. 
Properties as = e.g. scaling, simplicity and generic usability are taken into = consideration.

imo it seems too early to adopt/settle on a solution, while = we have options available ("create something new", "augment something = existing" or "reuse something existing")

G/



On 13 Jul 2018, at 16:13, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Hi Sue, et al, 
 
I don=E2=80=99t = think we should settle on this auto-discovery mechanism at this point = just because they were the first to ask for adoption.  There are = trade-offs  for the various auto-discovery techniques as mentioned = in the thread. 
 
Thanks,
Acee
 
From: Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> on = behalf of Keyur Patel <keyur@arrcus.com>
Date: Friday, July 13, 2018 = at 1:44 AM
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, IDR List <idr@ietf.org>
Cc: "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org" <draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption = call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery
 
Hi Sue,
 
While I think the BGP discovery work is = import, I don=E2=80=99t think WG should adopt this document at this = time.  My answers are further inlined #Keyur.
 
From: Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> on = behalf of Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Date: Monday, July 2, 2018 at = 11:10 AM
To: "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>
Cc: "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org" <draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org>
Subject: [Idr] WG adoption call = for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery
 
Greetings:
 
This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =E2=80=93 July = 16). 
 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodisc= overy/
 
The authors of this = draft should send their IPR statements in response to this email. =  I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors to = respond by July 7th. 
 
The WG should consider = the following:
1)      Does BGP need = to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within Data Centers?
 
#Keyur: Yes.
 
2)      Does this = mechanism work for other deployments? 
 
#Keyur: Yes.
 
3)      If so, should = be passed in BGP Hello message?  
Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, = etc).
 
#Keyur:  It = should not be included in BGP (or any BGP Hello messages).  Any = such mechanism within BGP  will 1) conflict with existing = keepalives and 2) impose scale issues when it comes to supporting large = number of BGP peers. 
 
          &nb= sp;     My suggestion is to implement discovery = mechanism outside BGP.
 
4)      Does this = interact with any of the LSVR work? 
#Keyur: Yes it does.
 
Regards,
Keyur
 
 
I want to thank the = authors for their patience while we sorted through some of the WG LC for = other drafts.  We decided to wait until some of those discussion = were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call.
 
 
Susan Hares
_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

= --Apple-Mail=_731C8391-162D-4555-A3F4-FB3341396EC8-- From nobody Fri Jul 13 11:17:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 305E8130F27; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:16:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dQvRVVnWGmWF; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x236.google.com (mail-lf0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D201130F1B; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x236.google.com with SMTP id v22-v6so14414269lfe.8; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:16:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=hj1xCToAbogc7veQ7UqUd7UKX3r/7NFPIX7G0ZKfNNc=; b=R5zOcz+RodRdc22Y3IAYyw66wV6Jw8ai9iRF6WMBOgEiOHijRW6Em8DA+/3Af+opXl JGNj5Z77+3ecQGRwBROyNPF8olvqqeP/rgWZ4kFHAuKmq1xBtyXTzNmB7MjQerxmWLXM jmqda3A22rOZKMXcmKPgpu41YvkX1RHLARX03DAObLtmaaeFlIcB2mc87ZBxibeyqAsa b4P6FoPuQmAVyqgjag4jS4Yw1UigoLV3rAGzgwmCbLmim2xViVDSUVLW3nxEGQrUu+mC iNlCVX/ZH756NhRN4oUkvm6aOfif4bsr0ymtTIuAIsgUi8BE7p3F7o/sPTD7lQO32IVk 0YHw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hj1xCToAbogc7veQ7UqUd7UKX3r/7NFPIX7G0ZKfNNc=; b=LhWCOVCTaDdQcAe++t9aUCW+rWRoMUgEWtdKdKiIjIac2WDf9LHQ6ZUHoSOHdMVtqv KhCSXuN8/xWANsLqtdDRrvEOf5QTFkzURWYTkWDcjk+MtOMCyc7q/NImPWS/ePMQOgux 4tCzii/ZZSe99B6DCnv22Ssh0hWiLnxN/uR7Sf3jyanhSqhegnT23WxIyp/+7Nn4i1kW 9w8mYGVvl2tQUUdHcY87HTJ+GjhKKN0RvNSU3N2m2r5a6AEt8soQeMOGGhgdGEtVSL5y Jtcr9/6b8SYqrnM2iNRiePYv0ayoxRs7i45PZB2tY0QMITcjtb0MEJAgPQhUTBvrK1Ps N5ng== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlE/WUKXldrL1WZw2LFwx+esgqPfD00KD0LDKERIMPTCRYlo+hXR N9iH/F5WXA/uCA0DYSecgYEqwqDWLmPpBzd8RLk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpefA+rGrXoDOw/ZzjqE282gBx2XGppnsUyo1rVEiCO+1OK7w3MmrOVvBX8Vo11A7lDDqng/mcyGpRTiE3/FHOc= X-Received: by 2002:a19:169f:: with SMTP id 31-v6mr5611636lfw.72.1531505799749; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:16:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:8003:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:16:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6ACB426F-D10D-43E2-BC12-2D41D0CCE88A@arrcus.com> References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <6ACB426F-D10D-43E2-BC12-2D41D0CCE88A@arrcus.com> From: Nikos Triantafillis Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 21:16:38 +0300 Message-ID: To: Keyur Patel Cc: Susan Hares , "idr@ietf.org" , "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002a6a810570e57bc5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 18:16:55 -0000 --0000000000002a6a810570e57bc5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Responses inline marked #NT On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 8:44 AM, Keyur Patel wrote: > Hi Sue, > > > > While I think the BGP discovery work is import, I don=E2=80=99t think WG = should > adopt this document at this time. My answers are further inlined #Keyur. > > > > *From: *Idr on behalf of Susan Hares < > shares@ndzh.com> > *Date: *Monday, July 2, 2018 at 11:10 AM > *To: *"idr@ietf.org" > *Cc: *"draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org" < > draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org> > *Subject: *[Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery > > > > Greetings: > > > > This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodisco= very > (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16). > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/ > > > > The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response to > this email. I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors t= o > respond by July 7th. > > > > The WG should consider the following: > > 1. Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within > Data Centers? > > > > #Keyur: Yes. > > > > 1. Does this mechanism work for other deployments? > > > > #Keyur: Yes. > > > > 1. If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? > > Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc). > > > > #Keyur: It should not be included in BGP (or any BGP Hello messages). > Any such mechanism within BGP will 1) conflict with existing keepalives > and 2) impose scale issues when it comes to supporting large number of BG= P > peers. > #NT: Regarding (1) the draft will address this in the next update. (2) is simply not true :-) > > > My suggestion is to implement discovery mechanism outside > BGP. > #NT: This is restrictive and requires those running only BGP, to run yet another mechanism/protocol IMO needlessly. The added complexity is certainly not desirable by operators either. > > > 1. Does this interact with any of the LSVR work? > > #Keyur: Yes it does. > > > > Regards, > > Keyur > > > > > > I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through > some of the WG LC for other drafts. We decided to wait until some of tho= se > discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call. > > > > > > Susan Hares > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > --0000000000002a6a810570e57bc5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Responses inline marked #NT
=
On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 8:44 AM, Keyur Patel= <keyur@arrcus.com> wrote:

Hi Sue,

=C2=A0

While I think the BGP discovery work is import, I do= n=E2=80=99t think WG should adopt this document at this time.=C2=A0 My answ= ers are further inlined #Keyur.

=C2=A0

From= : Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org= > on behalf of Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Date: Monday, July 2, 2018 at 11:10 AM
To: "idr@ietf= .org" <idr@ie= tf.org>
Cc: "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org" <draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org&g= t;
Subject: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

=C2=A0

= Greetings:

=C2=A0

This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draf= t-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16).=C2=A0

=C2=A0

https://= datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/

=C2=A0

The authors of this draft should send their IP= R statements in response to this email.=C2=A0 I hope the authors will ihelp= their vacationing co-authors to respond by July 7th.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The WG should consider the following:

  1. Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery = mechanism for peers within Data Centers?

=C2=A0

#Keyur: Yes.

=C2=A0

  1. Does this mechanism work for other depl= oyments?

=C2=A0

#Keyur: Yes.=

=C2=A0

  1. If so, should be passed in BGP Hello me= ssage?=C2=A0

Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc).

=C2=A0

#Keyur:=C2=A0 It should not be included= in BGP (or any BGP Hello messages).=C2=A0 Any such mechanism within BGP=C2= =A0 will 1) conflict with existing keepalives and 2) impose scale issues wh= en it comes to supporting large number of BGP peers.


#NT: Regarding (1) the draft will address this in the next update.= (2) is simply not true :-)
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 My suggestion is to implement= discovery mechanism outside BGP.

<= br>
#NT: This is restrictive and requires those running only BGP,= to run yet another mechanism/protocol IMO needlessly. The added complexity= is certainly not desirable by operators either.
=C2=A0
=

=C2=A0

  1. Does this interact with any of the LSVR= work?

#Keyur: Yes it does.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Keyur

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I want to thank the authors for their patience= while we sorted through some of the WG LC for other drafts.=C2=A0 We decid= ed to wait until some of those discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Susan Hares


_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr


--0000000000002a6a810570e57bc5-- From nobody Fri Jul 13 11:59:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53BA1130F29; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:59:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fiETh4YYjiqq; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x22d.google.com (mail-pf0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DB1C12F1A5; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id i26-v6so11708872pfo.12; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:59:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=xtfqsxcnm0JJNL/8sZd00vHkDSr7CU1CReyEISzUDIc=; b=LZUYb44t9d6/VHAycNSDnYYOWauEcH/VINkTJwYLFuNiyTk+oIEUyDmQyFYd1DxFk4 hTiGB7PLwcJY6D9uk4dCMACBY5LpP7TN30fM4gLElUvsItYrjnX9l81yABqhEa/mrF0U BPnGnBgD9KtVDlVSMq+SCt5l+1O0CtU3S+qmVGYbb6TISO723GX1TXHBF41xpPhfxGAI zareBwY1qj24y0Zb8KTedhEn3CVP7VBySD+NRcrJlA2NvosaTP21QkQrvgWE7ILzHelK n3ylaQhVj0i3GWCt/kGN+t50fIPQ6lI7yGvKmvIHdZuVqM9M7iMj1VCrpaMum08diWy4 sZ4A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xtfqsxcnm0JJNL/8sZd00vHkDSr7CU1CReyEISzUDIc=; b=VSZ/MkFAjXs423poFqZBDNGSefbNA4FvKrdyJqNfRdNapEk+b5KpFwFqS2C7pwRPw7 ibuTcMWOQy+YcNA9sfoZ1/yGh+jgd+tD8oGJaM8PuFQORUNWXzwLic+jvcYCAcsx8jcE ER0H8j+W9mDXOOX84Xq6dJn1xF6GcBGFNasg0H+oJDBxxny+bG895hnS8X6Zv+C47WpC XIQO4s0LlEKxVmSXkoSoJtYFh7msqvb6H+DrpG9Ac5Wo6fdhjKAQR/KAjDy347BQNdGN nMbqBNiSd3yPC0LHRBhN6J+3gH2Nn9ca2FcsKjpziiKkq3QM7OEHSrqfqniJjwGXODE/ yv2w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlFI+Gyt4bURBxR4OXL5kSLURYZWuhl3mQHxJcqz7lUzDVwSkiQJ 094sN6qSKL7BGpSv/NFyeEcUmdA6Z94CBjp+IMo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfSmm6BzG9xzKT42mz0du6qH3/YRF1X4zRZ9zuQ1iPPOv/Ufzq7sL5pTR4TMdr7mGwDZB9+GlCsd8AcDEzDQXQ= X-Received: by 2002:a63:3444:: with SMTP id b65-v6mr7088206pga.396.1531508352843; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:59:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a17:90a:9c3:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:59:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <6ACB426F-D10D-43E2-BC12-2D41D0CCE88A@arrcus.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 20:59:11 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 2iU4Swhlbc_MLTQA_oWjRdA7o0w Message-ID: To: Nikos Triantafillis Cc: Keyur Patel , "idr@ietf.org" , "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org" , Susan Hares Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005783110570e613f9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 18:59:15 -0000 --0000000000005783110570e613f9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hey Nikos, > My suggestion is to implement discovery mechanism outside BGP. > #NT: This is restrictive and requires those running only BGP, to run yet another mechanism/protocol IMO needlessly When you are designing a data center there is much much more then BGP for underlay you need to worry about. The choice of what protocol to use from TORs towards compute nodes and from TORs towards the spine or how to exchange reachability between spines is just white noise at most (if you seriously looking at complete data center design). Then there is orchestration layer to manage the compute or storage infrastructure etc ... Some DCs use overlays some use only flat host routes in the underlay etc .. Then there are those DCs still running a lot of native multicast with expectations to move to BIER soon etc ... So let's not use such arguments of "single protocol" for DC as this is just not correct if you consider the full DC architecture. - - - Back to your proposal - the way I read it nothing prevents me today to blasts the BGP Hellos over logical interfaces for any AFI/SAFI you like as far as I like - correct ? Eric pointed this out as well yesterday. Is that intentional or accidental? Also can multicast address from "all routes on the subnet" be modified by the implementation to any other multicast address ? If so then you can discover bunch of other cool things in your multicast domain - all with BGP ! Btw in number of deployments UDP is blocked in the fabric or on TORs by ACLs at the interface level. So to make sure this works folks need to punch wholes in the ACLs. Last it is often the case today - when running no overlay - to advertise dynamically VMs or LXCs addresses to TORs via routing protocol - say BGP. What happens when now the LXCs or VMs will start sending such BGP Hellos directly to TORs ? Do you envision that this proposal will automatically establish BGP sessions with those tenant entities if they happen to be on the same subnet then compute node itself ? Bottom line is that we do not know really what complete set of functionality (both intended and accidental) are we having the WG acceptance call for. The document is missing so much text that at this stage IMO it is not eligible for any IETF WG adoption pool. Thx, R. --0000000000005783110570e613f9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Nikos,
=C2=A0

My suggestion is to implement discovery mechanism= outside BGP.


#NT: This is restrictive and requires those running only BGP, to run yet a= nother mechanism/protocol IMO needlessly

When you are designing a data center there is = much much more then BGP for underlay you need to worry about. The choice of= what protocol to use from TORs towards compute nodes and from TORs towards= the spine or how to exchange reachability between spines is just white noi= se at most (if you seriously looking at complete data center design).=C2=A0=

Then there is orchest= ration layer to manage the compute or storage infrastructure etc ... Some D= Cs use overlays some use only flat host routes in the underlay etc .. Then = there are those DCs still running a lot of native multicast with expectatio= ns to move to BIER soon etc ... So let's not use such arguments of &quo= t;single protocol" for DC as this is just not correct if you consider = the full DC architecture.=C2=A0

- - -=C2=A0

= Back to your proposal - the way I read it nothing prevents me today to blas= ts the BGP Hellos over logical interfaces for any AFI/SAFI you like as far = as I like - correct ? Eric pointed this out as well yesterday. Is that inte= ntional or accidental? Also can multicast address from "all routes on = the subnet" be modified by the implementation to any other multicast a= ddress ? If so then you can discover bunch of other cool things in your mul= ticast domain - all with BGP !=C2=A0

Btw in number of deployments UDP is blocked in the fabric or= on TORs by ACLs at the interface level. So to make sure this works folks n= eed to punch wholes in the ACLs.=C2=A0

Last it is often the case today - when running no overlay = - to advertise dynamically VMs or LXCs addresses to TORs via routing protoc= ol - say BGP. What happens when now the LXCs or VMs will start sending such= BGP Hellos directly to TORs ? Do you envision that this proposal will auto= matically establish BGP sessions with those tenant entities if they happen = to be on the same subnet then compute node itself ?=C2=A0

Bottom line is that we do not know re= ally what complete set of functionality (both intended and accidental) are = we having the WG acceptance call for. The document is missing so much text = that at this stage IMO it is not eligible for any IETF WG adoption pool.=C2= =A0

Thx,
R.
--000000000000e741de0570e6a132-- From nobody Fri Jul 13 12:54:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93CB0130E25; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 12:54:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3xyV4xcQXRwV; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 12:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x233.google.com (mail-pf0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 632F6128BAC; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 12:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x233.google.com with SMTP id u16-v6so23184607pfh.3; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 12:54:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=jx+ZSd5QFeIyLRRE/qok8sjQFeDFmB2/a6eO+zUkB1c=; b=uJESr2lvNOCXnSxhQj4MakijFy49vPk9DP1WPEw9hVdHtOXYBeIlx4sy2uXtsg/yVq Q8GlGIc3ysowk9EiTYCp7EdXyJrkLJjZjPezfwRHNs9lvVXE8WVQQ6JpJ/DzT5fWNRKn 3M9oy7O7JfZ9dt1i9IZMMXFUOSDQbECkcbVRyzNoDl+bigB4HC71UCV4IgR+tzGn46AK cPRL042+yGV/i7Kpy7bZ7dOfVfwqwJ1Rnm73PaFm6kt4V5R9OfL0BgTVHq7a8Gdiaxiw Gcrwa0cO6ihhhl5F0kbAM1XOiZ1e4wb/Fqx3js0kxKKTjnPErn52Bvu4SfnNCz5Xjq2k KTZg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jx+ZSd5QFeIyLRRE/qok8sjQFeDFmB2/a6eO+zUkB1c=; b=DDCbJkAqC0IKKp/N7697pHTxbT8rH1R97Y89sM/5wQvXlPeyIkYbI4voypuTCAeTi/ 05eAnOrjQ1O3ehyLvdqgPaaVfqbPSed+NcBvNr+LEMk0RJ2dowwDCRvblMvYWnwmx/+3 xuyso1EG/DuoYHgaCFJxXi5jUFkrqEkEbahdAxV3KrgZzHGrUFn86qzIGwrEEB1Uzk+I OLrmFi9ZQ2y+8juGpqyaLKPaPgRPQgSjY2M/Sc9HHtrdftRoVcsnk1RuqG8SPb3FO2gg myE5BlAF88RqMQzgUv7nzXEt/JJ1Av1Mkycv1e8qwQNyHUEF7UjN3f4t2W2oNWnWIaVx wnHQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlFSCZp/XUBuDeiaUvRvELuBg/rdpf7YGIBLXT3ASszHAKDn/G4a GhNaqApcTTgU63vl1qfNw/6q6ukmYUk0Ik+yHIg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpc6umokRykB36Bn/wdqPdlKsHneA9VjuViODxtVX2NeCNrbUXG2gXR7soxExLmPnMQBLLk5m089xg9eSyhXzWM= X-Received: by 2002:a65:4005:: with SMTP id f5-v6mr7061266pgp.302.1531511682754; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 12:54:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a17:90a:9c3:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 12:54:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <6ACB426F-D10D-43E2-BC12-2D41D0CCE88A@arrcus.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 21:54:41 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: X2aL7m9vO88G8bOe1v-pCRJwicA Message-ID: To: Nikos Triantafillis Cc: Keyur Patel , "idr@ietf.org" , "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org" , Susan Hares Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d1ee020570e6d9a0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 19:54:45 -0000 --000000000000d1ee020570e6d9a0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > =E2=80=8B> =E2=80=8B > The draft needs work to spell out what the intention is in areas of > concern and we will do that. > =E2=80=8BI don't think this is only about spelling out intentions. It is mo= re about adding actual mechanisms to prevent not intended by authors accidental use cases. =E2=80=8B > #NT: IMO this is irrelevant in the context of the draft. It's an > operational issue for those specific deployments and a much simpler one t= o > address than asking someone to run yet another protocol if the > functionality could be provided by enhancing the existing one they run. > That's my take on that. > =E2=80=8BSure you can do that. But perhaps someone could just explain what = is so difficult in configuring your TORs and SPINEs with provisioning tool ? Why in DC there is need for this automation in BGP ? Besides if you plan your addressing in the fabric correctly the peering addresses to use both on direct p2p EBGP sessions or between loopbacks (including resolving connected routes) can be all easily automated today without single hello message exchanged. The BGP Hellos may help those who randomly assign fabric address plan - but is this really something we need to spend IDR WG time on ? As stated in vast majority of DC fabrics there is no need for BGP at all, but if there is group of folks who think otherwise why not to just carve-out what is necessary for DC-BGP from BGP, write it up in new RFC as new protocol and deal with it in DC dedicated WGs ? Thx, R. --000000000000d1ee020570e6d9a0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0
=E2=80=8B> =E2=80=8B
The draft needs work to spell out what the= intention is in areas of concern and we will do that.

=E2=80=8BI don&= #39;t think this is only about spelling out intentions. It is more about ad= ding actual mechanisms to prevent not intended by authors accidental use ca= ses.

=E2=80=8B
=
#NT: IMO this is irr= elevant in the context of the draft. It's an operational issue for thos= e specific deployments and a much simpler one to address than asking someon= e to run yet another protocol if the functionality could be provided by enh= ancing the existing one they run. That's my take on that.

= =E2=80=8BSure you can do that. But perhaps someone could just explain what = is so difficult in configuring your TORs and SPINEs with provisioning tool = ? Why in DC there is need for this automation in BGP ?=C2=A0

Besides if you plan your addressing = in the fabric correctly the peering addresses to use both on direct p2p EBG= P sessions or between loopbacks (including resolving connected routes) can = be all easily automated today without single hello message exchanged.=C2=A0=

The BGP Hellos may he= lp those who randomly assign fabric address plan - but is this really somet= hing we need to spend IDR WG time on ?=C2=A0

As stated in vast majority of DC fabrics there is no= need for BGP at all, but if there is group of folks who think otherwise wh= y not to just carve-out what is necessary for DC-BGP from BGP, write it up = in new RFC as new protocol and deal with it in DC dedicated WGs ?=C2=A0

Thx,
R.
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Jul 2018 15:17:51 -0700 (PDT) To: Abhay Roy , Gunter Van De Velde Cc: "idr@ietf.org" , Keyur Patel , "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org" , "lsvr@ietf.com" , "Acee Lindem (acee)" , Susan Hares References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <6ACB426F-D10D-43E2-BC12-2D41D0CCE88A@arrcus.com> <70B18447-2E4F-4896-BB1E-148242A837E8@icloud.com> <32B41109-9678-4BDB-B619-EE1B336441CC@arrcus.com> From: Ahmed Bashandy Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 15:17:50 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <32B41109-9678-4BDB-B619-EE1B336441CC@arrcus.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4A71EFD2FFDB0985E69CB27B" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 22:17:58 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4A71EFD2FFDB0985E69CB27B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I concur. I think we should wait few days for face-to-face meetings Ahmed On 7/13/18 3:13 PM, Abhay Roy wrote: > +1 > > I do see it getting a lot of discussion time next week in LSVR agenda: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/agenda-102-lsvr-02 > > (The subject doc is also on the agenda) > > So will vote to wait just a little bit more before deciding the path > forward on auto-discovery approach. > > Regards, > -Abhay > > > > >> On Jul 13, 2018, at 10:19 AM, Gunter Van De Velde >> > > wrote: >> >> +1 >> >> Next week LSVR WG will have a discussion detailing auto-discovery >> problem-space/requirements. >> Properties as e.g. scaling, simplicity and generic usability are >> taken into consideration. >> >> imo it seems too early to adopt/settle on a solution, while we have >> options available ("create something new", "augment something >> existing" or "reuse something existing") >> >> G/ >> >> >> >>> On 13 Jul 2018, at 16:13, Acee Lindem (acee) >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> Hi Sue, et al, >>> I don’t think we should settle on this auto-discovery mechanism at >>> this point just because they were the first to ask for adoption. >>>  There are trade-offs  for the various auto-discovery techniques as >>> mentioned in the thread. >>> Thanks, >>> Acee >>> *From:*Idr > on >>> behalf of Keyur Patel > >>> *Date:*Friday, July 13, 2018 at 1:44 AM >>> *To:*Susan Hares >, IDR >>> List > >>> *Cc:*"draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org >>> " >>> >> > >>> *Subject:*Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for >>> draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery >>> Hi Sue, >>> While I think the BGP discovery work is import, I don’t think WG >>> should adopt this document at this time.  My answers are further >>> inlined #Keyur. >>> *From:*Idr > on >>> behalf of Susan Hares > >>> *Date:*Monday, July 2, 2018 at 11:10 AM >>> *To:*"idr@ietf.org " >> > >>> *Cc:*"draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org >>> " >>> >> > >>> *Subject:*[Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery >>> Greetings: >>> This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for >>> draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 – July 16). >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/ >>> The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in >>> response to this email.  I hope the authors will ihelp their >>> vacationing co-authors to respond by July 7^th . >>> The WG should consider the following: >>> 1)Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within >>> Data Centers? >>> #Keyur: Yes. >>> 2)Does this mechanism work for other deployments? >>> #Keyur: Yes. >>> 3)If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? >>> Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc). >>> #Keyur:  It should not be included in BGP (or any BGP Hello >>> messages).  Any such mechanism within BGP will 1) conflict with >>> existing keepalives and 2) impose scale issues when it comes to >>> supporting large number of BGP peers. >>>                 My suggestion is to implement discovery mechanism >>> outside BGP. >>> 4)Does this interact with any of the LSVR work? >>> #Keyur: Yes it does. >>> Regards, >>> Keyur >>> I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted >>> through some of the WG LC for other drafts.  We decided to wait >>> until some of those discussion were cleared up prior to starting a >>> new WG Adoption call. >>> Susan Hares >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Idr mailing list >>> Idr@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Idr mailing list >> Idr@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr --------------4A71EFD2FFDB0985E69CB27B Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I concur.

I think we should wait few days for face-to-face meetings

Ahmed



On 7/13/18 3:13 PM, Abhay Roy wrote:
+1

I do see it getting a lot of discussion time next week in LSVR agenda:


(The subject doc is also on the agenda)

So will vote to wait just a little bit more before deciding the path forward on auto-discovery approach. 

Regards,
-Abhay




On Jul 13, 2018, at 10:19 AM, Gunter Van De Velde <guntervandeveldecc=40icloud.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

+1

Next week LSVR WG will have a discussion detailing auto-discovery problem-space/requirements. 
Properties as e.g. scaling, simplicity and generic usability are taken into consideration.

imo it seems too early to adopt/settle on a solution, while we have options available ("create something new", "augment something existing" or "reuse something existing")

G/



On 13 Jul 2018, at 16:13, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Hi Sue, et al, 
 
I don’t think we should settle on this auto-discovery mechanism at this point just because they were the first to ask for adoption.  There are trade-offs  for the various auto-discovery techniques as mentioned in the thread. 
 
Thanks,
Acee
 
From: Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Keyur Patel <keyur@arrcus.com>
Date: Friday, July 13, 2018 at 1:44 AM
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>, IDR List <idr@ietf.org>
Cc: "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org" <draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery
 
Hi Sue,
 
While I think the BGP discovery work is import, I don’t think WG should adopt this document at this time.  My answers are further inlined #Keyur.
 
From: Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Date: Monday, July 2, 2018 at 11:10 AM
To: "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>
Cc: "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org" <draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org>
Subject: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery
 
 
This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 – July 16). 
 
 
The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response to this email.  I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors to respond by July 7th. 
 
The WG should consider the following:
1)      Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within Data Centers?
 
#Keyur: Yes.
 
2)      Does this mechanism work for other deployments? 
 
#Keyur: Yes.
 
3)      If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message?  
Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc).
 
#Keyur:  It should not be included in BGP (or any BGP Hello messages).  Any such mechanism within BGP  will 1) conflict with existing keepalives and 2) impose scale issues when it comes to supporting large number of BGP peers. 
 
                My suggestion is to implement discovery mechanism outside BGP.
 
4)      Does this interact with any of the LSVR work? 
#Keyur: Yes it does.
 
Regards,
Keyur
 
 
I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through some of the WG LC for other drafts.  We decided to wait until some of those discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call.
 
 
Susan Hares
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--------------4A71EFD2FFDB0985E69CB27B-- From nobody Fri Jul 13 15:52:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A1931292AD; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 15:52:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id asyJrN2v2Aik; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 15:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x232.google.com (mail-oi0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 819131277BB; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 15:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x232.google.com with SMTP id s198-v6so65061247oih.11; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 15:52:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WksAUwX0W8lz3sZHbe+kfJyd7mq3VUXhZQ7LscdFM60=; b=Gujxa+nuwddaYLHhiXkVI9gRdDQMCiL37MqJXZWcYE/B4KP2OP5MeeKRstvGAWTz88 mYrpam9w0e2o/9MQIwwnq3jtN4jM4+jIMPY/WIe2OMdgAOTfVS3AzrxmXFmOHNvC3P5c tqdhcK6GZXYUJTBAdi2g7EQYsBFTtRhEISB6+SB5OrMb93NEdUewxTzVBELm+rZs81pG O3fX1qCspQ2HyhQzjBkFn5jJArvepVB9c3iA0IJbTlM+hjRjVmH2DRMX/6fEacbfVkNv zKVmlQLScZdMyy+wKyD34zBLkF6ZG/9WKdiF9WWV0AjPt+mse8Vm51kE+0RX2jiAJMOk WZtw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WksAUwX0W8lz3sZHbe+kfJyd7mq3VUXhZQ7LscdFM60=; b=S2Rob+Veq5D7Lkeh1n3M1UNE28tYnVlTfdpId2o9JRjm3/CNbLnY6arL4xzvdyH8E7 /rvbYvviCar/CEYWQXuBNOWUNyFYWlZfE5pbho/7/8yhtezFU5k4ZT/qIK0+o/Zvyv1c HAm+I/rV5nqph7h/i0IUSU4CvDtl0YBbfDnfXQml9kxX2KLEP1iETzYaYEXjtH61L37R H4Ax7ok/tuIWQz2P46V3gxnaTIv8+EPRIg4Frv6sMLj4vbSeLANI8IyBdM5oV6Y7/fEa UPjSTDRY414qF6w6XH48o60r170Px+qTEnlE1+FFWeg6ZsK5gBPrp8zETELN+cRG6tem bQpA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlFZWCjO0otNCExwl9f2Xz3yp6o/QfooM9D1pJSJp5eD6Y8gfyEz 6nry58klx5/2CVmDYmi/Ju1p/+XOPfEsDWsxeHi+JA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpeCh3GIgJXBiu6okVVlrZUPN6SwullwEOvBZhMgPJim6Wmbz86qFjXACHMBbOZx6cGOGa2O9Zv4tScfHZDI0w4= X-Received: by 2002:aca:2ec9:: with SMTP id u192-v6mr8509462oiu.17.1531522341848; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 15:52:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:4430:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 15:52:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Neeraj Malhotra Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 15:52:21 -0700 Message-ID: To: idr@ietf.org Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000026cb160570e95598" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 22:52:25 -0000 --00000000000026cb160570e95598 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, my vote is no at this time. would be more in favor of a generic discovery mechanism that addresses a wider set of use cases as opposed to overloading BGP. seems a bit premature to move forward with adoption at this time, without proper discussion on that front. Thanks, Neeraj --00000000000026cb160570e95598 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

my vote is no at thi= s time.

would be more in favor of a generic discov= ery mechanism that addresses a wider set of use cases as opposed to overloa= ding BGP. seems a bit premature to move forward with adoption at this time,= without proper discussion on that front.

Thanks,<= /div>
Neeraj



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PjxkaXYgIHN0eWxlPSJmb250LWZhbWlseTphcmlhbCxoZWx2ZXRpY2Esc2Fucy1zZXJpZjtmb250 LXNpemU6c21hbGw7Ij5SLjwvZGl2PjwvZGl2PjwvZGl2PjxiciA+PC9kaXY+PC9kaXY+PC9ibG9j a3F1b3RlPjxkaXYgIHN0eWxlPSJsaW5lLWhlaWdodDoyMC4wcHg7Y2xlYXI6Ym90aDsiPjxiciA+ PC9kaXY+PC9kaXY+PC9kaXY+ ------=ALIBOUNDARY_26954_53842940_5b494d04_23acc7-- From nobody Fri Jul 13 19:53:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB9F0130F82 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 19:53:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W3pYwQz-dnD7 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 19:53:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 318E1130DD8 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 19:53:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1feAgF-0003Ck-DS; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 02:53:07 +0000 Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 22:53:07 -0400 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: =?GB2312?B?ItDs0KG7oijS5c/IKSI=?= Cc: Interminable Discussion Room In-Reply-To: <651d5519-8da8-4f29-b39c-b8edd0a85cf6.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <6ACB426F-D10D-43E2-BC12-2D41D0CCE88A@arrcus.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/25.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 02:53:13 -0000 > Fully agree with Nikos' opinions. The DC world comes in many flavors, > I believe the coauthors and contributors of this draft from MSDC > operators know well about what they really need. > > The BGP neighbor auto-discovery mechanism as described in this draft > is mainly intended for the MSDCs following the eBGP-only design as > recommended by RFC7938. This eBGP-only design will be kept for a long > period of time unless they saw a STRONG and REAL benefit of deploying > link-state protocols. Therefore, it's worthwhile to enhance the > automation and simplification in the deployment of the eBGP-only MSDC > fabric. > > It may be useful to consider the applicability in the LSVR provided > LSVR had a chance to be widely deployed in future even though there > has been many link-state protocol proposals for MSDC CLOS networks > which are either built on the proven IS-IS/OSPF protocols or built on > totally-new designs for wider purposes. ad they do not scale, just as making bgp as noisy as an igp. i hope all iij's dc competitors do that. great idea! randy From nobody Fri Jul 13 20:07:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAC61130F85; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 20:07:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 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List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 13:03:54 -0000 The IDR WG has placed draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery in state Candidate for WG Adoption (entered by Susan Hares) The document is available at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/ From nobody Sat Jul 14 06:49:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C6C5130FDA; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 06:49:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com 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AAOMgpfBzMpev1nlduZYpJgkZK8kL1+9XZn6wTk75RnUW/bRD7XRahy1LvS/5Yz/7dXYDO28j8NImHB8Cmdp+f3tCPY= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:4e02:: with SMTP id c2-v6mr6132679ljb.108.1531576187172; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 06:49:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:8003:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 06:49:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <6ACB426F-D10D-43E2-BC12-2D41D0CCE88A@arrcus.com> From: Nikos Triantafillis Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 16:49:46 +0300 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: "idr@ietf.org" , "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org" , Susan Hares Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000953e050570f5de13" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 13:49:51 -0000 --000000000000953e050570f5de13 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Inline. On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 10:54 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > >> =E2=80=8B> =E2=80=8B >> The draft needs work to spell out what the intention is in areas of >> concern and we will do that. >> > > =E2=80=8BI don't think this is only about spelling out intentions. It is = more > about adding actual mechanisms to prevent not intended by authors > accidental use cases. > "prevent not intended by authors accidental use cases" - if you have security concerns, please bring them up for discussion. =E2=80=8B > #NT: IMO this is irrelevant in the context of the draft. It's an >> operational issue for those specific deployments and a much simpler one = to >> address than asking someone to run yet another protocol if the >> functionality could be provided by enhancing the existing one they run. >> That's my take on that. >> > > =E2=80=8BSure you can do that. But perhaps someone could just explain wha= t is so > difficult in configuring your TORs and SPINEs with provisioning tool ? Wh= y > in DC there is need for this automation in BGP ? > Because different people operate their DCs differently. That should be a good enough reason and we shouldn't be dictating in this or any other group how operators should be configuring or provisioning their DCs :-) Besides if you plan your addressing in the fabric correctly the peering > addresses to use both on direct p2p EBGP sessions or between loopbacks > (including resolving connected routes) can be all easily automated today > without single hello message exchanged. > > The BGP Hellos may help those who randomly assign fabric address plan - > but is this really something we need to spend IDR WG time on ? > IDR WG shouldn't dictate how operators should run their DCs. > As stated in vast majority of DC fabrics there is no need for BGP at all, > but if there is group of folks who think otherwise why not to just > carve-out what is necessary for DC-BGP from BGP, write it up in new RFC a= s > new protocol and deal with it in DC dedicated WGs ? > That's one view. The other is the ask to enhance what is already out there and deployed to suit the needs of DC operators. Regards, Nikos.- Thx, > R. > --000000000000953e050570f5de13 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Inline.

On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 10:54 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.= net> wrote:
=C2=A0
=E2=80=8B> = =E2=80=8B
The draft needs work to spell out what the intention is in a= reas of concern and we will do that.

=E2=80=8BI don't think this is only about spell= ing out intentions. It is more about adding actual mechanisms to prevent no= t intended by authors accidental use cases.

"prevent not intended by authors accide= ntal use cases" - if you have security concerns, please bring them up = for discussion.
=C2=A0=E2=80=8B
#NT: IMO this is irrelevant in = the context of the draft. It's an operational issue for those specific = deployments and a much simpler one to address than asking someone to run ye= t another protocol if the functionality could be provided by enhancing the = existing one they run. That's my take on that.

=E2=80=8BSure you can do that.= But perhaps someone could just explain what is so difficult in configuring= your TORs and SPINEs with provisioning tool ? Why in DC there is need for = this automation in BGP ?=C2=A0

Because different people operate their DCs differently. T= hat should be a good enough reason and we shouldn't be dictating in thi= s or any other group how operators should be configuring or provisioning th= eir DCs :-)

Besides if y= ou plan your addressing in the fabric correctly the peering addresses to us= e both on direct p2p EBGP sessions or between loopbacks (including resolvin= g connected routes) can be all easily automated today without single hello = message exchanged.=C2=A0

The BGP Hellos may help those who randomly as= sign fabric address plan - but is this really something we need to spend ID= R WG time on ?=C2=A0

IDR WG shouldn't dictate how operators should run their DCs.
=C2=A0
As stated in vast majori= ty of DC fabrics there is no need for BGP at all, but if there is group of = folks who think otherwise why not to just carve-out what is necessary for D= C-BGP from BGP, write it up in new RFC as new protocol and deal with it in = DC dedicated WGs ?

That's one view. The other is the ask to enhance what is already = out there and deployed to suit the needs of DC operators.
=C2= =A0
Regards,

Nikos.-

<= /div>
Thx,
R.

--000000000000953e050570f5de13-- From nobody Sat Jul 14 19:56:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D3F3130E99 for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 18:47:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tT0TudeAPusf for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 18:47:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33839130E90 for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 18:47:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id EE2B2B80E8D; Sat, 14 Jul 2018 18:47:50 -0700 (PDT) To: yakov@juniper.net, tony.li@tony.li, skh@nexthop.com, db3546@att.com, aretana.ietf@gmail.com, martin.vigoureux@nokia.com, jgs@juniper.net, shares@ndzh.com X-PHP-Originating-Script: 30:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Cc: gregskinner0@icloud.com, idr@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20180715014750.EE2B2B80E8D@rfc-editor.org> Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 18:47:50 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 19:56:07 -0700 Subject: [Idr] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC4271 (5421) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 01:47:56 -0000 The following errata report has been submitted for RFC4271, "A Border Gateway Protocol 4 (BGP-4)". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5421 -------------------------------------- Type: Editorial Reported by: Greg Skinner Section: 8.2.2 Original Text ------------- If the local system receives a KeepaliveTimer_Expires event (Event 11), the local system: - sends a KEEPALIVE message, - restarts the KeepaliveTimer, and - remains in the OpenConfirmed state. Corrected Text -------------- If the local system receives a KeepaliveTimer_Expires event (Event 11), the local system: - sends a KEEPALIVE message, - restarts the KeepaliveTimer, and - remains in the OpenConfirm state. Notes ----- Instructions: ------------- This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC4271 (draft-ietf-idr-bgp4-26) -------------------------------------- Title : A Border Gateway Protocol 4 (BGP-4) Publication Date : January 2006 Author(s) : Y. Rekhter, Ed., T. Li, Ed., S. Hares, Ed. 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charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <32F6F52C91A15C44B1AA4DD4CD72E727@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 06:20:49 -0700 Subject: Re: [Idr] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC4271 (5421) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 12:33:27 -0000 U2VlbXMgdG8gYmUgYSB2YWxpZCBFZGl0b3JpYWwgRXJyYXRhLi4uIA0KDQrvu79PbiA3LzE0LzE4 LCAxMDo1NiBQTSwgIklkciBvbiBiZWhhbGYgb2YgUkZDIEVycmF0YSBTeXN0ZW0iIDxpZHItYm91 bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZyBvbiBiZWhhbGYgb2YgcmZjLWVkaXRvckByZmMtZWRpdG9yLm9yZz4gd3Jv dGU6DQoNCiAgICBUaGUgZm9sbG93aW5nIGVycmF0YSByZXBvcnQgaGFzIGJlZW4gc3VibWl0dGVk IGZvciBSRkM0MjcxLA0KICAgICJBIEJvcmRlciBHYXRld2F5IFByb3RvY29sIDQgKEJHUC00KSIu DQogICAgDQogICAgLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NCiAgICBZ b3UgbWF5IHJldmlldyB0aGUgcmVwb3J0IGJlbG93IGFuZCBhdDoNCiAgICBodHRwOi8vd3d3LnJm Yy1lZGl0b3Iub3JnL2VycmF0YS9laWQ1NDIxDQogICAgDQogICAgLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NCiAgICBUeXBlOiBFZGl0b3JpYWwNCiAgICBSZXBvcnRlZCBi eTogR3JlZyBTa2lubmVyIDxncmVnc2tpbm5lcjBAaWNsb3VkLmNvbT4NCiAgICANCiAgICBTZWN0 aW9uOiA4LjIuMg0KICAgIA0KICAgIE9yaWdpbmFsIFRleHQNCiAgICAtLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQog ICAgSWYgdGhlIGxvY2FsIHN5c3RlbSByZWNlaXZlcyBhIEtlZXBhbGl2ZVRpbWVyX0V4cGlyZXMg ZXZlbnQgKEV2ZW50DQogICAgICAgICAgMTEpLCB0aGUgbG9jYWwgc3lzdGVtOg0KICAgIA0KICAg ICAgICAgICAgLSBzZW5kcyBhIEtFRVBBTElWRSBtZXNzYWdlLA0KICAgIA0KICAgICAgICAgICAg LSByZXN0YXJ0cyB0aGUgS2VlcGFsaXZlVGltZXIsIGFuZA0KICAgIA0KICAgICAgICAgICAgLSBy ZW1haW5zIGluIHRoZSBPcGVuQ29uZmlybWVkIHN0YXRlLg0KICAgIA0KICAgIENvcnJlY3RlZCBU ZXh0DQogICAgLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NCiAgICBJZiB0aGUgbG9jYWwgc3lzdGVtIHJlY2VpdmVz IGEgS2VlcGFsaXZlVGltZXJfRXhwaXJlcyBldmVudCAoRXZlbnQNCiAgICAgICAgICAxMSksIHRo ZSBsb2NhbCBzeXN0ZW06DQogICAgDQogICAgICAgICAgICAtIHNlbmRzIGEgS0VFUEFMSVZFIG1l c3NhZ2UsDQogICAgDQogICAgICAgICAgICAtIHJlc3RhcnRzIHRoZSBLZWVwYWxpdmVUaW1lciwg YW5kDQogICAgDQogICAgICAgICAgICAtIHJlbWFpbnMgaW4gdGhlIE9wZW5Db25maXJtIHN0YXRl Lg0KICAgIA0KICAgIE5vdGVzDQogICAgLS0tLS0NCiAgICANCiAgICANCiAgICBJbnN0cnVjdGlv bnM6DQogICAgLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0KICAgIFRoaXMgZXJyYXR1bSBpcyBjdXJyZW50bHkgcG9z dGVkIGFzICJSZXBvcnRlZCIuIElmIG5lY2Vzc2FyeSwgcGxlYXNlDQogICAgdXNlICJSZXBseSBB bGwiIHRvIGRpc2N1c3Mgd2hldGhlciBpdCBzaG91bGQgYmUgdmVyaWZpZWQgb3INCiAgICByZWpl Y3RlZC4gV2hlbiBhIGRlY2lzaW9uIGlzIHJlYWNoZWQsIHRoZSB2ZXJpZnlpbmcgcGFydHkgIA0K ICAgIGNhbiBsb2cgaW4gdG8gY2hhbmdlIHRoZSBzdGF0dXMgYW5kIGVkaXQgdGhlIHJlcG9ydCwg aWYgbmVjZXNzYXJ5LiANCiAgICANCiAgICAtLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLQ0KICAgIFJGQzQyNzEgKGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtaWRyLWJncDQtMjYpDQogICAgLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NCiAgICBUaXRsZSAgICAgICAgICAgICAg IDogQSBCb3JkZXIgR2F0ZXdheSBQcm90b2NvbCA0IChCR1AtNCkNCiAgICBQdWJsaWNhdGlvbiBE YXRlICAgIDogSmFudWFyeSAyMDA2DQogICAgQXV0aG9yKHMpICAgICAgICAgICA6IFkuIFJla2h0 ZXIsIEVkLiwgVC4gTGksIEVkLiwgUy4gSGFyZXMsIEVkLg0KICAgIENhdGVnb3J5ICAgICAgICAg ICAgOiBEUkFGVCBTVEFOREFSRA0KICAgIFNvdXJjZSAgICAgICAgICAgICAgOiBJbnRlci1Eb21h aW4gUm91dGluZw0KICAgIEFyZWEgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgOiBSb3V0aW5nDQogICAgU3RyZWFt ICAgICAgICAgICAgICA6IElFVEYNCiAgICBWZXJpZnlpbmcgUGFydHkgICAgIDogSUVTRw0KICAg IA0KICAgIF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQog ICAgSWRyIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KICAgIElkckBpZXRmLm9yZw0KICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lmll dGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWRyDQogICAgDQoNCg== From nobody Sun Jul 15 07:42:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B3A7130E09; 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Support for the WG adoption. BGP is widely used and simplifying the prov= isioning is important and useful. The solution proposed in the draft can so= lve the issue better. Moreover the solution should be better to be provided= by BGP's self. Dependency on other protocols may add unnecessary limitation.

 

Best Regards,

Zhenbin(Robin)

 

 

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB= : Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Susan Hares
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2018=C4=EA7=D4=C23=C8=D5 1:09
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: idr@ietf.org
=B3=AD=CB=CD: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-auto= discovery@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Idr] WG adoption call for= draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

 

Greetings:

 

This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-i= dr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =A8C July 16). 

 

https://datatracker.ietf.or= g/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/

 

The authors of this draft should send their IPR stat= ements in response to this email.  I hope the authors will ihelp their= vacationing co-authors to respond by July 7th. 

 

The WG should consider the following:

1)     = ; Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers wi= thin Data Centers?

2)     = ; Does this mechanism work for other deployments?

 

3)     = ; If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? 

Or should it be a part of another protocol (e= ..g. LLDP, BFD, etc).

 

4)     = ; Does this interact with any of the LSVR work?

 

I want to thank the authors for their patience while= we sorted through some of the WG LC for other drafts.  We decided to = wait until some of those discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new= WG Adoption call.

 

 

Susan Hares

--_000_5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D8F45D82ADGGEMM532MBXchi_-- From nobody Mon Jul 16 06:55:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73309130E85; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 06:55:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aC0CsSJ_l8YZ; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 06:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A98FF130E14; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 06:55:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 3F90F2091447A; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 14:55:36 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML411-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.70) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.399.0; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 14:55:28 +0100 Received: from NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::a54a:89d2:c471:ff]) by nkgeml411-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.70]) with mapi id 14.03.0382.000; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 21:55:22 +0800 From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" To: "idr@ietf.org" CC: "idr-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Draft IDR agenda posted Thread-Index: AdQTkLVsaDmXkR2PQgWLVbxmyVTs+gJe2ICQ Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 13:55:21 +0000 Message-ID: <76CD132C3ADEF848BD84D028D243C927A7070710@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <76CD132C3ADEF848BD84D028D243C927A6EBAC1D@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <76CD132C3ADEF848BD84D028D243C927A6EBAC1D@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.124.182.219] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_76CD132C3ADEF848BD84D028D243C927A7070710NKGEML515MBXchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogRHJhZnQgSURSIGFnZW5kYSBwb3N0ZWQ=?= X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 13:55:44 -0000 --_000_76CD132C3ADEF848BD84D028D243C927A7070710NKGEML515MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QSByZW1pbmRlciB0byB0aGUgcHJlc2VudGVyczoNCg0KUGxlYXNlIHNlbmQgeW91ciBwcmVzZW50 YXRpb24gc2xpZGVzIGJ5IFdlZG5lc2RheS4gVGhhbmtzLg0KDQpCZXN0IHJlZ2FyZHMsDQpKaWUN Cg0Kt6K8/sjLOiBJZHIgW21haWx0bzppZHItYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gtPqx7SBEb25namll IChKaW1teSkNCreiy83KsbzkOiAyMDE4xOo31MI0yNUgODoxNw0KytW8/sjLOiBpZHJAaWV0Zi5v cmcNCrOty806IGlkci1jaGFpcnNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCtb3zOI6IFtJZHJdIERyYWZ0IElEUiBhZ2Vu ZGEgcG9zdGVkDQoNCkRlYXIgYWxsLA0KDQpUaGUgZHJhZnQgYWdlbmRhIG9mIElEUiBzZXNzaW9u IGlzIHBvc3RlZDoNCg0KaHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRmLm9yZy9tZWV0aW5nLzEwMi9t YXRlcmlhbHMvYWdlbmRhLTEwMi1pZHItMDANCg0KDQpQbGVhc2UgbGV0IHVzIGtub3cgaWYgeW91 IGhhdmUgYW55IHByb2JsZW0gd2l0aCBpdC4NCg0KUHJlc2VudGVycywNCg0KUGxlYXNlIHByZXBh cmUgdG8gc2VuZCB5b3VyIHNsaWRlcyB0byBtZSBhbmQgQ0MgdGhlIGNoYWlycy4gVGhlIGRlYWRs aW5lIGZvciBzbGlkZXMgaXMgMjQgaG91cnMgcHJpb3IgdG8gb3VyIGZpcnN0IHNlc3Npb24gKFRo dXJzZGF5KSAsIHRob3VnaCBlYXJsaWVyIGlzIGJldHRlci4NCg0KQW5kIHBsZWFzZSB0YWtlIGEg bG9vayBhdCB0aGUgY2hlY2tsaXN0IGZvciBwcmVzZW50aW5nIGF0IElEUjoNCmh0dHBzOi8vdHJh Yy50b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy93Zy9pZHIvdHJhYy93aWtpL0NoZWNrbGlzdCUyMGZvciUyMHByZXNl bnRpbmclMjBhdCUyMGFuJTIwSURSJTIwbWVldGluZw0KDQpCZXN0IHJlZ2FyZHMsDQpKaWUNCg0K --_000_76CD132C3ADEF848BD84D028D243C927A7070710NKGEML515MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A remin= der to the presenters:

&n= bsp;

Please = send your presentation slides by Wednesday. Thanks.

&n= bsp;

Best re= gards,

Jie

&n= bsp;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Dongjie (Jimmy)
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:<= /span> 2018=C4=EA7=D4=C24=C8=D5 8:17
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: idr@ietf.org
=B3=AD=CB=CD: idr-chairs@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Idr] Draft IDR agenda posted

 

Dear all,

 

The draft agenda of IDR session= is posted:

 

https://datatracker.ietf.= org/meeting/102/materials/agenda-102-idr-00

 

Please let us know if you ha= ve any problem with it.

 

Presenters, <= /p>

 

Please prepare to send your sli= des to me and CC the chairs. The deadline for slides is 24 hours prior to o= ur first session (Thursday) , though earlier is better.

 

And please take a look at the c= hecklist for presenting at IDR:

https://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/idr/trac/wiki/Checklist%20for%20presen= ting%20at%20an%20IDR%20meeting

 

Best regards,=

Jie

 

--_000_76CD132C3ADEF848BD84D028D243C927A7070710NKGEML515MBXchi_-- From nobody Mon Jul 16 08:32:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A84261292F1 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 08:32:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l9j-hthDQZ4F for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 08:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x544.google.com (mail-pg1-x544.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::544]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 466A11310C5 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 08:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x544.google.com with SMTP id z8-v6so6169395pgu.8 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 08:32:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=914oEXYjGAs9C5z40bmKMRCV0dgHkSDOpAqozo1F5MA=; b=DEiCH0gcaskuziEOdMbb177fPKbUEiYWuayl5+0OGvmjiSpTjzF9+iEPJHnngRDf2E MbFZLzuU9Ff2GbDMY3OUuMAYTbUYfeOF8cBCOmH/CMlCgGVFrh/Se9nFZvWi5InNDww3 53PydAkysOa98OjAZc1oxV0jpJNv+frUtPxSPisAl2LNPVnQ+hUYyiE9bp6dkiGNnuuD YHP6RBv0E4ZGYf0DX3agd1+M+hs98sUJANY0WFAgunBLXBiZSHm223OFcTavtWCnEimt DUT5fg335Q6YmXnJbllC7d6sFZ1GFCMtXdp7eMY6O+RZe1IZy+uNGVdzja2F/BpLtXqM s4vg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=914oEXYjGAs9C5z40bmKMRCV0dgHkSDOpAqozo1F5MA=; b=sjgJnzbaRCzge3HPZaGQK+btP09+1ZV4l3OXTwDPg8puWsl/Ud6RWJINMG7AIlwvSr EXPjbzcMAzFouErUaLJQ/72MgeBzTFohLaIyhz8VDdgWIfNPh1l99voNYZiMwUXZoyX4 ebkiUQlU9ip2MgAP81yqlHcimeujzb3tFuPeqkdkY3+g8eMpVP2tMQwLFAWr3lZ4x1Lg YL6mDtMxV320p/eD2ildkSFNXmTKe7Lsbl2p4uS3WInvP7e2jN7CuLBRyG9qgyL0qbid 3yR8Eo7EMLCf6PDuYr9dfEgM2aYWMPMDYMsAZ6vU5XWJSo0sms8l8PlyjXQ0d2xuPmwv ae6A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlH1SckeiP0ODJNpLnpk7zZ9Mofar6jGIh4FQ/0dYW5rNLr6XQbZ 64+TndBYbZY93CFUUn/1wthuEvt92e1U4XDCwPc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpf74BTWBhihrpkb313qO9xrI85AgnlOQcXyeKmmnRtSCW8j/ByBtPOftNq3gb4AOM+yhqkPRTgY6BjuE2LeOz4= X-Received: by 2002:a65:4107:: with SMTP id w7-v6mr6597114pgp.302.1531755152514; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 08:32:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a17:90a:9c3:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 08:32:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D8F45D82A@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858DC3B8B4C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D8F45D82A@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 17:32:31 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: EQqOUd735F07qsS2TR878pYCtuM Message-ID: To: Lizhenbin , Susan Hares Cc: "idr@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bfa1b405711f8942" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBXRyBhZG9wdGlvbiBjYWxsIGZvciBkcmFmdC14?= =?utf-8?q?u-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery?= X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 15:32:44 -0000 --000000000000bfa1b405711f8942 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *Hello Zhenbin,* BGP is widely used and simplifying the provisioning is important and > useful. > =E2=80=8B+ > Moreover the solution should be better to be provided by BGP's self. > =E2=80=8B+=E2=80=8B > Dependency on other protocols may add unnecessary limitation. > =E2=80=8BWell I do agree with your above three comments above. But since IMO draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery goes way over the above points opening pandora box with various TLVs, instead of keep arguing on the list I wrote a small 3 page draft which does address the core issue of BGP build in session auto setup in a fully automated way for both DCs or campus deployments - yet without any risk of taking BGP on one more wild tracks again. *Hello Sue,* Please kindly consider the below proposal as simple candidate solution for the discussed problem at hand. =E2=80=8B A new version of I-D, draft-raszuk-idr-bgp-auto-session-setup-00.= txt has been successfully submitted by Robert Raszuk and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-raszuk-idr-bgp-auto-session-setup Revision: 00 Title: BGP Automated Session Setup (BGP-ASS) Document date: 2018-07-16 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 6 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-raszuk-idr-bgp- auto-session-setup-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-raszuk-idr-bgp-auto- session-setup/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-raszuk-idr-bgp-auto- session-setup-00 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-raszuk-idr-bgp- auto-session-setup Abstract: This document proposes a solution for BGP deployments in some specific environments to automatically establish BGP sessions without need for manual peer configuration. Kind regards, Robert. --000000000000bfa1b405711f8942 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Zhenbin,

BGP is widely used and s= implifying the provisioning is important and useful.=C2=A0

<= /blockquote>
=E2=80=8B+

Moreover the = solution should be better to be provided by BGP's self.

=E2=80=8B+=E2=80=8B=C2=A0

Dependency on other protocols may add unnecessary limitation.


=E2=80=8BWell I do agree with your above thre= e comments above. But since IMO=C2=A0draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscove= ry goes way over the above points opening pandora box with various TLVs, in= stead of keep arguing on the list I wrote a small 3 page draft which does a= ddress the core issue of BGP build in session auto setup in a fully automat= ed way for both DCs or campus deployments - yet without any risk of taking = BGP on one more wild tracks again.=C2=A0

=

Hello Sue,

Please kindly consider t= he below proposal as simple candidate solution for the discussed problem at= hand.=C2=A0

=E2=80=8B A new version= of I-D, draft-raszuk-idr-bgp-auto-session-setup-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Robert = Raszuk and posted to the
IETF rep= ository.

Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-raszuk-idr-bgp-auto-session-setup
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 BGP Automated Session Set= up (BGP-ASS)
Document date:=C2=A0= =C2=A02018-07-16
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual SubmissionPages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 6=
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.ietf.= org/internet-drafts/draft-raszuk-idr-bgp-auto-session-setup-00.tx= t
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-raszuk-i= dr-bgp-auto-session-setup/
Html= ized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-raszuk-idr-bgp-auto-session-setup-00
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http= s://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-raszuk-idr-bgp-auto-sessi= on-setup


Abstract:=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document proposes a solu= tion for BGP deployments in some
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0specific environments to automatically establish BGP sessions = without
=C2=A0 =C2=A0need for man= ual peer configuration.=C2=A0


Kind regards,
Robert.=C2=A0

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charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Nikos> a much simpler one to address than asking someone to run yet another protocol if the functionality could be provided by enhancing the existing one they run. The proposal is to define a brand new message type that is carried in UDP (as a multicast datagram!), rather than being carried on a BGP session.   It's hard to see why that is considered to be "enhancing BGP" rather than being "yet another protocol".   Taking a new protocol and calling it"BGP" does not necessarily result in an opex savings.  Auto-discovery protocols need to be evaluated on the basis of functionality, cost, security, unintended side-effects, etc., not on the basis of what name they are given. Robert> Last it is often the case today - when running no overlay - to advertise dynamically VMs or LXCs addresses to TORs via routing protocol - say BGP. What happens when now the LXCs or VMs will start sending such BGP Hellos directly to TORs ? Do you envision that this proposal will automatically establish BGP sessions with those tenant entities if they happen to be on the same subnet then compute node itself ? Nikos> Do you need to enable such functionality on the VMs or LXCs? One certainly has to deal with the possibility that a Hello will come in on an interface that is "DC-facing" rather than "network-facing". Presumably one wouldn't intentionally enable such functionality on an arbitrary tenant VM.  Not intentionally.  Also, is it really inconceivable that a malicious tenant may find a way to cause the Hellos to be generated even if the functionality has not been enabled? Something that all the auto-discovery proposals need to make clear is how much provisioning has to be done before the auto-discovery protocol starts up.  Perhaps the intention is that it is known by provisioning that certain interfaces are allowed to lead to EBGP neighbors,  and certain interfaces are not? --------------E1202F2E5AF6DA90628FB323 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Nikos> a much simpler one to address than asking someone to run yet another protocol if the functionality could be provided by enhancing the existing one they run.

The proposal is to define a brand new message type that is carried in UDP (as a multicast datagram!), rather than being carried on a BGP session.   It's hard to see why that is considered to be "enhancing BGP" rather than being "yet another protocol".   Taking a new protocol and calling it"BGP" does not necessarily result in an opex savings.  Auto-discovery protocols need to be evaluated on the basis of functionality, cost, security, unintended side-effects, etc., not on the basis of what name they are given.

Robert> Last it is often the case today - when running no overlay - to advertise dynamically VMs or LXCs addresses to TORs via routing protocol - say BGP. What happens when now the LXCs or VMs will start sending such BGP Hellos directly to TORs ? Do you envision that this proposal will automatically establish BGP sessions with those tenant entities if they happen to be on the same subnet then compute node itself ? 

Nikos> Do you need to enable such functionality on the VMs or LXCs?

One certainly has to deal with the possibility that a Hello will come in on an interface that is "DC-facing" rather than "network-facing". 

Presumably one wouldn't intentionally enable such functionality on an arbitrary tenant VM.  Not intentionally.  Also, is it really inconceivable that a malicious tenant may find a way to cause the Hellos to be generated even if the functionality has not been enabled?

Something that all the auto-discovery proposals need to make clear is how much provisioning has to be done before the auto-discovery protocol starts up.  Perhaps the intention is that it is known by provisioning that certain interfaces are allowed to lead to EBGP neighbors,  and certain interfaces are not?



--------------E1202F2E5AF6DA90628FB323-- From nobody Mon Jul 16 11:13:55 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C6F2130E3E; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 11:13:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.957 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.957 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XZE-5jY27HcG; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 11:13:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (50-245-122-97-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.245.122.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC610130DEE; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 11:13:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=31.133.154.14; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Eric C Rosen'" , "'Nikos Triantafillis'" , "'Robert Raszuk'" Cc: "'Keyur Patel'" , , References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <6ACB426F-D10D-43E2-BC12-2D41D0CCE88A@arrcus.com> <20401d8c-4591-0507-776f-a154bc968245@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <20401d8c-4591-0507-776f-a154bc968245@juniper.net> Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 14:13:30 -0400 Message-ID: <006401d41d30$b3e0b1f0$1ba215d0$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0065_01D41D0F.2CD134D0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: AQGRTPZtbKn53OktwvULcZwhWaIQQAIrQZnOAvQpxa8CtuFxBQHtXP5jAh/+LyCkuKi7UA== X-Antivirus: AVG (VPS 180716-4, 07/16/2018), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Not-Tested X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 18:13:53 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01D41D0F.2CD134D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric : =20 Could you provide a short summary on your opinion on potential = auto-discovery protocols based on functionality, cost security, = unintended side=20 a) Draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery=20 b) Use of LLDP (draft-acee-idr-lldp-peer-discovery)=20 c) A multicast of neighbor information=20 =20 I know you=E2=80=99ve mentioned part of this information in other = messages --- but I think it would be very useful to advance the = discussion on this draft.=20 =20 Thank you,=20 =20 Sue Hares=20 =20 From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric C Rosen Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 11:51 AM To: Nikos Triantafillis; Robert Raszuk Cc: Keyur Patel; draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org; Susan = Hares; idr@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery =20 Nikos> a much simpler one to address than asking someone to run yet = another protocol if the functionality could be provided by enhancing the = existing one they run.=20 The proposal is to define a brand new message type that is carried in = UDP (as a multicast datagram!), rather than being carried on a BGP = session. It's hard to see why that is considered to be "enhancing BGP" = rather than being "yet another protocol". Taking a new protocol and = calling it"BGP" does not necessarily result in an opex savings. = Auto-discovery protocols need to be evaluated on the basis of = functionality, cost, security, unintended side-effects, etc., not on the = basis of what name they are given. Robert> Last it is often the case today - when running no overlay - to = advertise dynamically VMs or LXCs addresses to TORs via routing protocol = - say BGP. What happens when now the LXCs or VMs will start sending such = BGP Hellos directly to TORs ? Do you envision that this proposal will = automatically establish BGP sessions with those tenant entities if they = happen to be on the same subnet then compute node itself ?=20 =20 Nikos> Do you need to enable such functionality on the VMs or LXCs? One certainly has to deal with the possibility that a Hello will come in = on an interface that is "DC-facing" rather than "network-facing". =20 Presumably one wouldn't intentionally enable such functionality on an = arbitrary tenant VM. Not intentionally. Also, is it really = inconceivable that a malicious tenant may find a way to cause the Hellos = to be generated even if the functionality has not been enabled? Something that all the auto-discovery proposals need to make clear is = how much provisioning has to be done before the auto-discovery protocol = starts up. Perhaps the intention is that it is known by provisioning = that certain interfaces are allowed to lead to EBGP neighbors, and = certain interfaces are not? ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01D41D0F.2CD134D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Eric :

 

Could you provide a short summary on your opinion on potential = auto-discovery protocols based on functionality, cost security, = unintended side

a)      = Draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

b)      = Use of LLDP (draft-acee-idr-lldp-peer-discovery) =

c)       = A multicast of neighbor information

 

I know you=E2=80=99ve mentioned part of this information in other = messages --- but I think it would be very useful to advance the = discussion on this draft.

 

Thank you,

 

Sue Hares

 

From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric C = Rosen
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 11:51 AM
To: Nikos = Triantafillis; Robert Raszuk
Cc: Keyur Patel; = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org; Susan Hares; = idr@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

 

Nikos> a = much simpler one to address than asking someone to run yet another = protocol if the functionality could be provided by enhancing the = existing one they run.

The proposal is to define a brand = new message type that is carried in UDP (as a multicast datagram!), = rather than being carried on a BGP session.   It's hard to see = why that is considered to be "enhancing BGP" rather than being = "yet another protocol".   Taking a new protocol and = calling it"BGP" does not necessarily result in an opex = savings.  Auto-discovery protocols need to be evaluated on the = basis of functionality, cost, security, unintended side-effects, etc., = not on the basis of what name they are given.

Robert> Last = it is often the case today - when running no overlay - to advertise = dynamically VMs or LXCs addresses to TORs via routing protocol - say = BGP. What happens when now the LXCs or VMs will start sending such BGP = Hellos directly to TORs ? Do you envision that this proposal will = automatically establish BGP sessions with those tenant entities if they = happen to be on the same subnet then compute node itself = ? 

 

Nikos> = Do you need to enable such functionality on the VMs or = LXCs?

One certainly has to deal with the possibility that = a Hello will come in on an interface that is "DC-facing" = rather than "network-facing". 

Presumably one = wouldn't intentionally enable such functionality on an arbitrary tenant = VM.  Not intentionally.  Also, is it really inconceivable that = a malicious tenant may find a way to cause the Hellos to be generated = even if the functionality has not been enabled?

Something that = all the auto-discovery proposals need to make clear is how much = provisioning has to be done before the auto-discovery protocol starts = up.  Perhaps the intention is that it is known by provisioning that = certain interfaces are allowed to lead to EBGP neighbors,  and = certain interfaces are = not?


------=_NextPart_000_0065_01D41D0F.2CD134D0-- From nobody Mon Jul 16 11:22:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 592D0130EF4; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 11:21:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.957 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.957 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qf20hvkA9ulT; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 11:21:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (50-245-122-97-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.245.122.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD4A3130E62; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 11:21:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=31.133.154.14; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Eric C Rosen'" , "'Nikos Triantafillis'" , "'Robert Raszuk'" Cc: "'Keyur Patel'" , , References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <6ACB426F-D10D-43E2-BC12-2D41D0CCE88A@arrcus.com> <20401d8c-4591-0507-776f-a154bc968245@juniper.net> <006401d41d30$b3e0b1f0$1ba215d0$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: <006401d41d30$b3e0b1f0$1ba215d0$@ndzh.com> Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 14:21:35 -0400 Message-ID: <009a01d41d31$d4c96b40$7e5c41c0$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_009B_01D41D10.4DB978F0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: AQGRTPZtbKn53OktwvULcZwhWaIQQAIrQZnOAvQpxa8CtuFxBQHtXP5jAh/+LyABFz8INKSv8eBQ X-Antivirus: AVG (VPS 180716-4, 07/16/2018), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Not-Tested X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 18:22:00 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009B_01D41D10.4DB978F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric: =20 If you get time to send details on this analysis, will you include:=20 =C2=B7 draft-raszuk-idr-bgp-auto-session-setup-00 =20 Robert would appreciate the feedback (and so would I).=20 =20 Thank you, Sue=20 =20 From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 2:14 PM To: 'Eric C Rosen'; 'Nikos Triantafillis'; 'Robert Raszuk' Cc: 'Keyur Patel'; draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org; = idr@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery =20 Eric : =20 Could you provide a short summary on your opinion on potential = auto-discovery protocols based on functionality, cost security, = unintended side=20 a) Draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery=20 b) Use of LLDP (draft-acee-idr-lldp-peer-discovery)=20 c) A multicast of neighbor information=20 =20 I know you=E2=80=99ve mentioned part of this information in other = messages --- but I think it would be very useful to advance the = discussion on this draft.=20 =20 Thank you,=20 =20 Sue Hares=20 =20 From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric C Rosen Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 11:51 AM To: Nikos Triantafillis; Robert Raszuk Cc: Keyur Patel; draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org; Susan = Hares; idr@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery =20 Nikos> a much simpler one to address than asking someone to run yet = another protocol if the functionality could be provided by enhancing the = existing one they run.=20 The proposal is to define a brand new message type that is carried in = UDP (as a multicast datagram!), rather than being carried on a BGP = session. It's hard to see why that is considered to be "enhancing BGP" = rather than being "yet another protocol". Taking a new protocol and = calling it"BGP" does not necessarily result in an opex savings. = Auto-discovery protocols need to be evaluated on the basis of = functionality, cost, security, unintended side-effects, etc., not on the = basis of what name they are given. Robert> Last it is often the case today - when running no overlay - to = advertise dynamically VMs or LXCs addresses to TORs via routing protocol = - say BGP. What happens when now the LXCs or VMs will start sending such = BGP Hellos directly to TORs ? Do you envision that this proposal will = automatically establish BGP sessions with those tenant entities if they = happen to be on the same subnet then compute node itself ?=20 =20 Nikos> Do you need to enable such functionality on the VMs or LXCs? One certainly has to deal with the possibility that a Hello will come in = on an interface that is "DC-facing" rather than "network-facing". =20 Presumably one wouldn't intentionally enable such functionality on an = arbitrary tenant VM. Not intentionally. Also, is it really = inconceivable that a malicious tenant may find a way to cause the Hellos = to be generated even if the functionality has not been enabled? Something that all the auto-discovery proposals need to make clear is = how much provisioning has to be done before the auto-discovery protocol = starts up. Perhaps the intention is that it is known by provisioning = that certain interfaces are allowed to lead to EBGP neighbors, and = certain interfaces are not? ------=_NextPart_000_009B_01D41D10.4DB978F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Eric:

 

If you get time to send details on this analysis, will you include: =

=C2=B7         = draft-raszuk-idr-bgp-auto-session-setup-00

 

Robert would appreciate the feedback (and so would I). =

 

Thank you, Sue

 

From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan = Hares
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 2:14 PM
To: 'Eric = C Rosen'; 'Nikos Triantafillis'; 'Robert Raszuk'
Cc: 'Keyur = Patel'; draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org; = idr@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

 

Eric :

 

Could you provide a short summary on your opinion on potential = auto-discovery protocols based on functionality, cost security, = unintended side

a)      = Draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

b)      = Use of LLDP (draft-acee-idr-lldp-peer-discovery) =

c)       = A multicast of neighbor information

 

I know you=E2=80=99ve mentioned part of this information in other = messages --- but I think it would be very useful to advance the = discussion on this draft.

 

Thank you,

 

Sue Hares

 

From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric C = Rosen
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 11:51 AM
To: Nikos = Triantafillis; Robert Raszuk
Cc: Keyur Patel; = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org; Susan Hares; = idr@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

 

Nikos> a = much simpler one to address than asking someone to run yet another = protocol if the functionality could be provided by enhancing the = existing one they run.

The proposal is to define a brand = new message type that is carried in UDP (as a multicast datagram!), = rather than being carried on a BGP session.   It's hard to see = why that is considered to be "enhancing BGP" rather than being = "yet another protocol".   Taking a new protocol and = calling it"BGP" does not necessarily result in an opex = savings.  Auto-discovery protocols need to be evaluated on the = basis of functionality, cost, security, unintended side-effects, etc., = not on the basis of what name they are given.

Robert> Last = it is often the case today - when running no overlay - to advertise = dynamically VMs or LXCs addresses to TORs via routing protocol - say = BGP. What happens when now the LXCs or VMs will start sending such BGP = Hellos directly to TORs ? Do you envision that this proposal will = automatically establish BGP sessions with those tenant entities if they = happen to be on the same subnet then compute node itself = ? 

 

Nikos> = Do you need to enable such functionality on the VMs or = LXCs?

One certainly has to deal with the possibility that = a Hello will come in on an interface that is "DC-facing" = rather than "network-facing". 

Presumably one = wouldn't intentionally enable such functionality on an arbitrary tenant = VM.  Not intentionally.  Also, is it really inconceivable that = a malicious tenant may find a way to cause the Hellos to be generated = even if the functionality has not been enabled?

Something that = all the auto-discovery proposals need to make clear is how much = provisioning has to be done before the auto-discovery protocol starts = up.  Perhaps the intention is that it is known by provisioning that = certain interfaces are allowed to lead to EBGP neighbors,  and = certain interfaces are not?

------=_NextPart_000_009B_01D41D10.4DB978F0-- From nobody Mon Jul 16 12:18:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietf.org Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D47212785F; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 12:18:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: idr@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.82.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: idr@ietf.org Message-ID: <153176873519.21785.8736646341287079546@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 12:18:55 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery-09.txt X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 19:18:55 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Inter-Domain Routing WG of the IETF. Title : BGP Neighbor Auto-Discovery Authors : Xiaohu Xu Ketan Talaulikar Kunyang Bi Jeff Tantsura Nikos Triantafillis Filename : draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery-09.txt Pages : 27 Date : 2018-07-16 Abstract: BGP is being used as the underlay routing protocol in some large- scaled data centers (DCs). Most popular design followed is to do hop-by-hop external BGP (eBGP) session configurations between neighboring routers on a per link basis. The provisioning of BGP neighbors in routers across such a DC brings its own operational complexity. This document introduces a BGP neighbor discovery mechanism that greatly simplifies BGP operations in such DC and other networks by automatic setup of BGP sessions between neighbor routers using this mechanism. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery-09 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery-09 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery-09 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 16 12:28:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5327612F18C; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 12:28:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 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15.00.1320.000; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 14:28:03 -0500 From: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" To: Susan Hares , "'Eric C Rosen'" , "'Nikos Triantafillis'" , "'Robert Raszuk'" CC: "'Keyur Patel'" , "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org" , "idr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Thread-Index: AdQSJcQmPylai0FFTx6TtuTV7fzVrQIDBM+AADNtUwAAAXxugAABZG+AAI7sdgAABPZ5AAAASEWAAAhjFyA= Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 19:28:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <6ACB426F-D10D-43E2-BC12-2D41D0CCE88A@arrcus.com> <20401d8c-4591-0507-776f-a154bc968245@juniper.net> <006401d41d30$b3e0b1f0$1ba215d0$@ndzh.com> <009a01d41d31$d4c96b40$7e5c41c0$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: <009a01d41d31$d4c96b40$7e5c41c0$@ndzh.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.119.189] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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YW4+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9 Im1zby1ib29rbWFyazpfTWFpbE9yaWdpbmFsQm9keSI+PHNwYW4gc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtc2l6ZTox MC4wcHQ7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6JnF1b3Q7Q291cmllciBOZXcmcXVvdDs7Y29sb3I6IzcwMzBBMCI+ Jm5ic3A7PC9zcGFuPjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9o dG1sPg0K --_000_CFF9E8389E5242BF916CCA8531D66BD4ciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Jul 16 13:41:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8089131262 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 13:40:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G-shMxpHfrY1 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 13:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8548F13120E for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 13:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id EDBA01E290; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 16:38:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 16:38:57 -0400 From: Jeffrey Haas To: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" Cc: "idr@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180716203857.GC14105@pfrc.org> References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <6ACB426F-D10D-43E2-BC12-2D41D0CCE88A@arrcus.com> <20401d8c-4591-0507-776f-a154bc968245@juniper.net> <006401d41d30$b3e0b1f0$1ba215d0$@ndzh.com> <009a01d41d31$d4c96b40$7e5c41c0$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 20:41:07 -0000 Jakob, On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 08:04:26PM +0000, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) wrote: > I'm not sure that it matters if the transport for the messages is UDP or LLDP. > AFAIK, LLDP can only go one hop. That might be a good thing. LLDP, however, doesn't transit switches. This restricts its use case considerably. (Somewhat intentionally.) As I mentioned in my own comments earlier, auto-discovery is worth working on. Exactly which transport(s) we choose will be much of the interesting discussion. > The hello messages are not necessary for session teardown. Keepalives already do that. I think the general concern is what we do with the BGP FSM if we start doing LDP-like things. LDP has some ugly FSM implications we likely wouldn't want in BGP. > Both draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery and draft-acee-idr-lldp-peer-discovery contain valuable TLVs. I would like to adopt a draft that contains TLVs from both drafts. > > In addition, I would like a TLV that contains a network name. Every speaker in the same network will have the same network name. This can be used to contain the discovery process within a named network if multiple networks are connected together. I'm not sure I follow your use case, but prior discussion about names over BGP capabilities that help with the link local case definitely fit into this rough space. -- Jeff From nobody Mon Jul 16 18:07:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62195130E7B; Mon, 16 Jul 2018 18:07:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.02 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.02 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=alibaba-inc.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) 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697b3529-5c2b-40cf-a019-193eb78f6820 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR18MB1598 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 01:08:44 -0000 --_000_984413B8D42349EBBCB8B73DE02B47FCarrcuscom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QWdyZWUgdGhlIFdHIHNob3VsZCB3YWl0IHRpbGwgdGhlIGlzc3VlcyByYWlzZWQgaW4gdGhlc2Ug dGhyZWFkcywgaW4gcGFydGljdWxhciB3aGljaCBhdXRvLWRpc2NvdmVyeSBhcHByb2FjaCB0byB0 YWtlLCBhcmUgcmVzb2x2ZWQuDQoNClRoYW5rcywNCkRlcmVrDQoNCg0KRnJvbTogSWRyIDxpZHIt Ym91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZz4gb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIEFiaGF5IFJveSA8YWJoYXlAYXJyY3VzLmNv bT4NCkRhdGU6IEZyaWRheSwgSnVseSAxMywgMjAxOCBhdCAzOjEzIFBNDQpUbzogR3VudGVyIFZh 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X-Mailer: [Alimail-Mailagent revision 268][W4_5305839][v5ForWebDing][Safari] MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <6ACB426F-D10D-43E2-BC12-2D41D0CCE88A@arrcus.com> <7c667976-f8cb-4cac-aa7f-4568178e0dee.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com>, In-Reply-To: x-aliyun-mail-creator: W4_5305839_v5ForWebDing_QvNTW96aWxsYS81LjAgKE1hY2ludG9zaDsgSW50ZWwgTWFjIE9TIFggMTBfMTJfNikgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA0LjUuNiAoS0hUTUwsIGxpa2UgR2Vja28pIFZlcnNpb24vMTEuMC4zIFNhZmFyaS82MDQuNS42La Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=ALIBOUNDARY_3614_5668e940_5b4d433a_27ab9e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] =?utf-8?q?WG_adoption_call_for_draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autod?= =?utf-8?q?iscovery?= X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 01:15:47 -0000 ------=ALIBOUNDARY_3614_5668e940_5b4d433a_27ab9e Content-Type: text/plain; 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X-Google-Sender-Auth: yxLgvc1dl3M9eWfMXlefOesc2Pc Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?= Cc: Idr , Lizhenbin , Susan Hares , "idr@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009666a705712ca54c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBXRyBhZG9wdGlvbiBjYWxsIGZvciBkcmFmdC14?= =?utf-8?q?u-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery?= X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 07:10:57 -0000 --0000000000009666a705712ca54c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Xiaohu, First I did not deny anything. I still believe that DCs should use following reachability protocols in the order of preference: 1. Link state IGP (vast majority of DCs can use it *as is*) 2. MSDCs link state with flooding reduction 3. EBGP with central configuration I can see a value of automatic bring-up for SD-WAN CPE - you buy a box, place it anywhere in the world and it joins the local provider's underlay and then VPNs you are authorized to join all with just a login name. But in DC things do not work that way. In order to install a box you need to open a ticket with exact connectivity map as otherwise it will not get mounted. So you do know exactly where it is placed and who to peer with. Configuration will be necessary anyway. Note that validation if connectivity is done correctly according to your map is very important, but clearly does not belong to BGP. I wrote my proposal to a little bit enhance the #3 above mainly due to: a) points made by some folks that IETF should not mandate or limit operators on how to build his network b) to limit damage which other similar proposals will result with. > please list them explicitly and then we can consider how to address your concerns. Sure: A) Permanently installing routes in RIB & FIB carried in BGP Hellos TLVs which are UDP based is something never heard of. Clearly you are up to great precedence here. There is no mention in the current draft when such routes are removed. B) All TLVs which are defined outside of need to bring up BGP session are dangerous as they glue current BGP with say new innovation (ex: LSVR) Once done here you can no longer separate the two. C) Creation of new message instead of using existing BGP message requires more changes then necessary. It also allows for extensible framework which while normally is a feature here has a clear potential to be rather a bad thing. D) Sending BGP Hellos periodically - after session is up does not seems to bring any value especially for p2p links. For LANs on the other hand (if such requirement is in place) there are much better solutions other then periodic BGP Hellos. E) I see no reason to suggest in any form use of port 179 to such UDP multicast messages Thx, R. --0000000000009666a705712ca54c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Xiaohu,

First I did not deny anything.=C2=A0

I still believe that DCs should use f= ollowing reachability protocols in the order of preference:=C2=A0

1. Link state IGP (vast majorit= y of DCs can use it *as is*)
2. MSDCs link state wi= th flooding reduction
3. EBGP with central configur= ation

I can see a val= ue of automatic bring-up for SD-WAN CPE - you buy a box, place it anywhere = in the world and it joins the local provider's underlay and then VPNs y= ou are authorized to join all with just a login name.=C2=A0

But in DC things do not work that way= . In order to install a box you need to open a ticket with exact connectivi= ty map as otherwise it will not get mounted. So you do know exactly where i= t is placed and who to peer with. Configuration will be necessary anyway.= =C2=A0

Note that valid= ation if connectivity is done correctly according to your map is very impor= tant, but clearly does not belong to BGP.=C2=A0
I wrote my proposal to a little bit enhance the #= 3 above mainly due to:=C2=A0

a) points made by some folks that IETF should not mandate or limit= operators on how to build his network

b) to limit damage which other similar proposals will resu= lt with.=C2=A0


> please list = them explicitly and then we can consider how to address your concerns.

Sure:=C2=A0

A) Permanently installing= routes in RIB & FIB carried in BGP Hellos TLVs which are UDP based is = something never heard of. Clearly you are up to great precedence here. Ther= e is no mention in the current draft when such routes are removed.=C2=A0

B) All TLVs which are de= fined outside of need to bring up BGP session are dangerous as they glue cu= rrent BGP with say new innovation (ex: LSVR) Once done here you can no long= er separate the two.=C2=A0

C) Creation of new message instead of using existing BGP message requi= res more changes then necessary. It also allows for extensible framework wh= ich while normally is a feature here has a clear potential to be rather a b= ad thing.=C2=A0=C2=A0

= D) Sending BGP Hellos periodically - after session is up does not seems to = bring any value especially for p2p links. For LANs on the other hand (if su= ch requirement is in place) there are much better solutions other then peri= odic BGP Hellos.=C2=A0

E) I see no reason to suggest in any form use of port 179 to such UDP = multicast messages

Thx,
R.
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17:21:43 +0800 Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 17:21:43 +0800 From: "=?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?=" To: "rraszuk" Cc: "Idr" , "Lizhenbin" , "Susan Hares" , "idr@ietf.org" Reply-To: "=?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?=" Message-ID: X-Mailer: [Alimail-Mailagent revision 268][W4_5305839][v5ForWebDing][Safari] MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858DC3B8B4C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D8F45D82A@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> <1ec22cba-dbee-4b65-8a75-a8afa213e8bb.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com>, In-Reply-To: x-aliyun-mail-creator: W4_5305839_v5ForWebDing_QvNTW96aWxsYS81LjAgKE1hY2ludG9zaDsgSW50ZWwgTWFjIE9TIFggMTBfMTJfNikgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNjA0LjUuNiAoS0hUTUwsIGxpa2UgR2Vja28pIFZlcnNpb24vMTEuMC4zIFNhZmFyaS82MDQuNS42La Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=ALIBOUNDARY_83262_47e32940_5b4db527_290578" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBXRyBhZG9wdGlvbiBjYWxsIGZvciBkcmFmdC14?= 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06:09:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a17:90a:d396:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 06:09:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858DC3B8B4C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D8F45D82A@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> <1ec22cba-dbee-4b65-8a75-a8afa213e8bb.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 15:09:46 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: vYaXlrnAv-mxY5UEI1j9e_Ru0fU Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?= Cc: Idr , Lizhenbin , Susan Hares , "idr@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000016592b057131a937" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBXRyBhZG9wdGlvbiBjYWxsIGZvciBkcmFmdC14?= =?utf-8?q?u-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery?= X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 13:09:52 -0000 --00000000000016592b057131a937 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Xiaohu, A) Permanently installing routes in RIB & FIB carried in BGP Hellos TLVs > which are UDP based is something never heard of. Clearly you are up to > great precedence here. There is no mention in the current draft when such > routes are removed. > > [Xiaohu] It said in the draft that " > > If the timer > expires without receipt of a matching Hello from the peer, BGP > concludes that the peer no longer wishes to keep BGP session for that > link or that the peer has failed. The BGP peer then deletes the > Hello adjacency. The route towards the BGP neighbor's loopback > address that had been dynamically created due to that BGP Hello > adjacency SHOULD be deleted accordingly. " > > =E2=80=8BYou did not responded to the question at all as I never asked abou= t BGP session above. There is no BGP session between loopbacks till you put routes in RIB and FIB as loopback is still unreachable. =E2=80=8BIn your dr= aft you are putting the routes from TLVs carried in UDP and not only how to reach loopback but also all the atomic connected addresses on how to ECMP towards loopback. Observe that in my proposal I am not doing it. IMO that is not acceptable. Now since you quoted the above note that even some of your own co-authors declared this is going away and session will not be brought down upon missing hellos. It is sufficient to keep any BGP session up based on the keepalives, bfd or manual shut. In fact just few lines below you agree that periodic hellos may not be necessary when the session is up. Very confusing picture ... [Xiaohu] Could you please explicitly point out which TLVs are not needed? > > =E2=80=8BAll of them. =E2=80=8B C) Creation of new message instead of using existing BGP message requires > more changes then necessary. It also allows for extensible framework whic= h > while normally is a feature here has a clear potential to be rather a bad > thing. > > [Xiaohu] Which existing BGP message could be used for this BGP peer > auto-discovery purpose from your POV? > > =E2=80=8BBGP Open Message. =E2=80=8B > D) Sending BGP Hellos periodically - after session is up does not seems t= o > bring any value especially for p2p links. For LANs on the other hand (if > such requirement is in place) there are much better solutions other then > periodic BGP Hellos. > > [Xiaohu] Good point. We could consider how to optimize it in the future. > Do you have any concrete suggestions for such optimization? > > =E2=80=8Bas above ... =E2=80=8B =E2=80=8BThx, R.=E2=80=8B --00000000000016592b057131a937 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Xiaohu,


A) Permanently ins= talling routes in RIB & FIB carried in BGP Hellos TLVs which are UDP ba= sed is something never heard of. Clearly you are up to great precedence her= e. There is no mention in the current draft when such routes are removed.= =C2=A0

[Xiaohu] It said in the draft that "
   If the timer
   expires without receipt of a matching Hello from the peer, BGP
   concludes that the peer no longer wishes to keep BGP session for that
   link or that the peer has failed.  The BGP peer then deletes the
   Hello adjacency.  The route towards the BGP neighbor's loopback
   address that had been dynamically created due to that BGP Hello
   adjacency SHOULD be deleted accordingly. "
=



=
=E2=80=8BYou did not responded to the question at all as= I never asked about BGP session above. There is no BGP session between loo= pbacks till you put routes in RIB and FIB as loopback is still unreachable.= =E2=80=8BIn your draft you are putting the routes from TLVs carried in UDP= and not only how to reach loopback but also all the atomic connected addre= sses on how to ECMP towards loopback. Observe that in my proposal I am not = doing it.=C2=A0

IMO th= at is not acceptable.=C2=A0

Now since you quoted the above note that even some of your own co-aut= hors declared this is going away and session will not be brought down upon = missing hellos. It is sufficient to keep any BGP session up based on the ke= epalives, bfd or manual shut.=C2=A0

In fact just few lines below you agree that periodic hellos m= ay not be necessary when the session is up.=C2=A0
<= br>
Very confusing picture ...=C2=A0

=
[Xiao= hu] Could you please explicitly point out=C2=A0which=C2=A0TLVs are not need= ed?


=E2=80=8BAll of them. =E2=80=8B
<= br>
C) Creation of new mes= sage instead of using existing BGP message requires more changes then neces= sary. It also allows for extensible framework which while normally is a fea= ture here has a clear potential to be rather a bad thing.=C2=A0=C2=A0
<= br>
[Xiaohu] Which existing BGP message could be used for this BGP p= eer auto-discovery=C2=A0purpose from your POV?=C2=A0


= =E2=80=8BBGP Open Message. =E2=80=8B


=C2=A0
D) Send= ing BGP Hellos periodically - after session is up does not seems to bring a= ny value especially for p2p links. For LANs on the other hand (if such requ= irement is in place) there are much better solutions other then periodic BG= P Hellos.=C2=A0

[Xiaohu] Good point. We could consider how = to optimize it in the future. Do you have any concrete suggestions for such= optimization?


=E2=80=8Bas above ... =E2=80=8B
<= br>
=E2=80=8BThx,
R.=E2=80=8B

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verify=FAIL); Tue, 17 Jul 2018 14:29:13 GMT Received: from xch-aln-008.cisco.com (173.36.7.18) by XCH-ALN-008.cisco.com (173.36.7.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 09:29:12 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-008.cisco.com ([173.36.7.18]) by XCH-ALN-008.cisco.com ([173.36.7.18]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 09:29:12 -0500 From: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" To: "UTTARO, JAMES" , "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" , Susan Hares , "'Eric C Rosen'" , "'Nikos Triantafillis'" , "'Robert Raszuk'" CC: "'Keyur Patel'" , "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org" , "idr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Thread-Index: AdQSJcQmPylai0FFTx6TtuTV7fzVrQIDBM+AADNtUwAAAXxugAABZG+AAI7sdgAABPZ5AAAASEWAAAhjFyAAIBAHgAAJFLXg Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 14:29:12 +0000 Message-ID: <0d88849a39e947b4ad4bbd1fe06e6130@XCH-ALN-008.cisco.com> References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <6ACB426F-D10D-43E2-BC12-2D41D0CCE88A@arrcus.com> <20401d8c-4591-0507-776f-a154bc968245@juniper.net> <006401d41d30$b3e0b1f0$1ba215d0$@ndzh.com> <009a01d41d31$d4c96b40$7e5c41c0$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.23.191] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_0d88849a39e947b4ad4bbd1fe06e6130XCHALN008ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 14:29:19 -0000 --_000_0d88849a39e947b4ad4bbd1fe06e6130XCHALN008ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:14:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alibaba-inc.com; s=default; t=1531840451; h=Date:From:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version:Content-Type; bh=LyRQYdKUEvenkWeOUBzyLJi9jUc5tDwvMWL3aXpo8q8=; b=AzLLuPBVe4hqGN1U6nDiFOEEG49OOnbbekB+Wn+Z/Q7Ahd/TlzzF59aHCCwBrpa/7ZrIm6tWB6dbCRjIGbOsF9ERq3s5vd9tZGI82EqROijQXAqMswzF9yCXIKTdAxVNdfklSJUNfPNRCltK7R1CwkJZaEBDi7zoUz2FKpXzFg8= X-Alimail-AntiSpam: AC=PASS; BC=-1|-1; BR=01201311R161e4; CH=green; FP=0|-1|-1|-1|0|-1|-1|-1; HT=e02c03308; MF=xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com; NM=1; PH=DW; RN=9; SR=0; TI=dingding_ios.COREAPI4f355d8230d84b9eb565426c0d0f1639; Received: from WS-web (xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com[dingding_ios.COREAPI4f355d8230d84b9eb565426c0d0f1639]) by e02c03267.eu6 at Tue, 17 Jul 2018 23:14:08 +0800 Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 23:14:08 +0800 From: "=?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?=" To: "Idr" , "=?UTF-8?B?S2V0YW4gVGFsYXVsaWthciAoa2V0YW50KQ==?=" , "Susan Hares" , "Eric C Rosen" , "Nikos Triantafillis" , "Robert Raszuk" Cc: "Keyur Patel" , "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org" , "idr@ietf.org" Message-ID: <4d995b1c-ee92-46e2-a8e8-c5adc412e717.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> X-Priority: 0 X-Mailer: [Alimail-Mailagent revision 268] MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <66faeea6-b4c4-4ef6-84a7-3bdc4737a6eb.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <6ACB426F-D10D-43E2-BC12-2D41D0CCE88A@arrcus.com> <20401d8c-4591-0507-776f-a154bc968245@juniper.net> <006401d41d30$b3e0b1f0$1ba215d0$@ndzh.com> <009a01d41d31$d4c96b40$7e5c41c0$@ndzh.com> , , <66faeea6-b4c4-4ef6-84a7-3bdc4737a6eb.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=ALIBOUNDARY_6403_545d0940_5b4e07c0_2995b0" Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] =?utf-8?b?5Zue5aSN77yaIOWbnuWkje+8miAgV0cgYWRvcHRpb24gY2Fs?= =?utf-8?q?l_for_draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery?= X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 15:14:33 -0000 ------=ALIBOUNDARY_6403_545d0940_5b4e07c0_2995b0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QnkgdGhlIHdheSwgaW4gYWRkaXRpb24gdG8gYXV0b21hdGUgYW5kIHNpbXBsaWZ5IHRoZSB1c2Ug b2YgQkdQIGFzIElHUCBpbiBNU0RDLCB0aGUgQkdQIHBlZXIgYXV0by1kaXNjb3ZlcnkgbWVjaGFu aXNtIGFzIGRlc2NyaWJlZCBpbiB0aGlzIGRyYWZ0IGhhcyB0aGUgcG90ZW50aWFsIHRvIGJlIGFw cGxpY2FibGUgdG8gQkdQLVNSLVRFIGFuZCBMU1ZSIGFzIHdlbGwuIAoKU29ycnkgZm9yIHRvdWNo aW5nIHRoZSBMU1ZSIGNoZWVzZSB1bmludGVudGlvbmFsbHk6KQoKQmVzdCByZWdhcmRzLApYaWFv aHUgCgoKCgoK5p2l6Ieq6ZKJ6ZKJ5LiT5bGe5ZWG5Yqh6YKu566xLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tCuWPkeS7tuS6 uu+8muW+kOWwj+iZjijkuYnlhYgpPHhpYW9odS54eGhAYWxpYmFiYS1pbmMuY29tPgrml6XjgIDm nJ/vvJoyMDE45bm0MDfmnIgxN+aXpSAyMjo1Njo1OQrmlLbku7bkurrvvJpJZHI8aWRyLWJvdW5j 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<013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <6ACB426F-D10D-43E2-BC12-2D41D0CCE88A@arrcus.com> <20401d8c-4591-0507-776f-a154bc968245@juniper.net> <006401d41d30$b3e0b1f0$1ba215d0$@ndzh.com> <009a01d41d31$d4c96b40$7e5c41c0$@ndzh.com> <66faeea6-b4c4-4ef6-84a7-3bdc4737a6eb.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 17:30:43 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: D4ooYkulC7xKDmG-8VCnpCV62w8 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?= Cc: Idr , "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" , Susan Hares , Eric C Rosen , Nikos Triantafillis , Keyur Patel , "draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org" , "idr@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002b8128057133a1ee" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 15:31:03 -0000 --0000000000002b8128057133a1ee Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > However, it's not good to introduce static routes to remote loopback addresses from the automation perspective It is actually very good if you know how to do it correctly. I think Dino was asking this question at the LSR WG mic yesterday. And someone responded: "But the links break" oh .... hint: BFD works fine with static routes for a long time ! Cheers, R. On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 4:56 PM, =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5= =85=88) wrote: > Hi Jim=EF=BC=8C > > For small or even medium-sized DC fabrics, script and even CLI is > sufficient. For large-scale DC fabric, automation and simplicity is alway= s > needed. For the use of BGP as IGP in MSDC, it's better to borrow the > automation of IGP into IGP so as to simplify the configuration. > Furthermore, it's desirable to establish BGP sessions over loopback > addresses when there are multiple links among a give peer of switches. > However, it's not good to introduce static routes to remote loopback > addresses from the automation perspective, also not good to introduce > another complex routing protocol such as ISIS or OSPF just for advertisin= g > the loopback addresses. > > Best regards, > Xiaohu > > > > > > =E6=9D=A5=E8=87=AA=E9=92=89=E9=92=89=E4=B8=93=E5=B1=9E=E5=95=86=E5=8A=A1= =E9=82=AE=E7=AE=B1 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9AUTTARO, JAMES > =E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F=EF=BC=9A2018=E5=B9=B407=E6=9C=8817=E6=97=A5 21:39:47 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9AKetan Talaulikar (ketant); Susan > Hares; 'Eric C Rosen'; 'Nikos > Triantafillis'; 'Robert Raszuk'< > robert@raszuk.net> > =E6=8A=84 =E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A'Keyur Patel'; draft-xu-idr= -neighbor- > autodiscovery@ietf.org; > idr@ietf.org > =E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9ARe: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-n= eighbor-autodiscovery > > > *The main purpose of this draft is to:* > > > > *a) **Simplify the MACD in terms of adding Leafs/Spines into a DC > fabric* > > *b) **Reduce the amount of =E2=80=9Chuman touch=E2=80=9D needed for = the care and > feeding of the above?* > > > > *Is there more to the ask here? * > > > > *Why is scripting not sufficient to meet this ask? IOW what is unique her= e > the IP Addresses, number of interface, ASN List etc=E2=80=A6* > > > > *I would like to better understand the trade-off between the added > complexity of modifying BGP in the manner proposed and the simplification= ..* > > > > *It would be useful to provide more information as to the driver(s) for > this draft=E2=80=A6* > > > > *Thanks,* > > * Jim Uttaro* > > > > *From:* Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Ketan Talaulikar > (ketant) > *Sent:* Monday, July 16, 2018 3:28 PM > *To:* Susan Hares ; 'Eric C Rosen' ; > 'Nikos Triantafillis' ; 'Robert Raszuk' < > robert@raszuk.net> > *Cc:* 'Keyur Patel' ; draft-xu-idr-neighbor- > autodiscovery@ietf.org; idr@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor- > autodiscovery > > > > Hello Eric/All, > > > > We have updated the document with more details based on the feedback and > comments received from the WG. I hope this better describes the proposal > and provides clarity on its interactions with the BGP protocol operations= . > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery-09 > > > > > Would request to please review this version and share your inputs/comment= s. > > > > Thanks, > > Ketan > > > > *From:* Idr *On Behalf Of *Susan Hares > *Sent:* 16 July 2018 14:22 > *To:* 'Eric C Rosen' ; 'Nikos Triantafillis' < > ntriantafillis@gmail.com>; 'Robert Raszuk' > *Cc:* 'Keyur Patel' ; draft-xu-idr-neighbor- > autodiscovery@ietf.org; idr@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor- > autodiscovery > > > > Eric: > > > > If you get time to send details on this analysis, will you include: > > =C2=B7 draft-raszuk-idr-bgp-auto-session-setup-00 > > > > Robert would appreciate the feedback (and so would I). > > > > Thank you, Sue > > > > *From:* Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org ] *On > Behalf Of *Susan Hares > *Sent:* Monday, July 16, 2018 2:14 PM > *To:* 'Eric C Rosen'; 'Nikos Triantafillis'; 'Robert Raszuk' > *Cc:* 'Keyur Patel'; draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org; > idr@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor- > autodiscovery > > > > Eric : > > > > Could you provide a short summary on your opinion on potential > auto-discovery protocols based on functionality, cost security, unintende= d > side > > a) Draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery > > b) Use of LLDP (draft-acee-idr-lldp-peer-discovery) > > c) A multicast of neighbor information > > > > I know you=E2=80=99ve mentioned part of this information in other message= s --- but > I think it would be very useful to advance the discussion on this draft. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Sue Hares > > > > *From:* Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org ] *On > Behalf Of *Eric C Rosen > *Sent:* Monday, July 16, 2018 11:51 AM > *To:* Nikos Triantafillis; Robert Raszuk > *Cc:* Keyur Patel; draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org; Susan > Hares; idr@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor- > autodiscovery > > > > Nikos> a much simpler one to address than asking someone to run yet > another protocol if the functionality could be provided by enhancing the > existing one they run. > > The proposal is to define a brand new message type that is carried in UDP > (as a multicast datagram!), rather than being carried on a BGP session. > It's hard to see why that is considered to be "enhancing BGP" rather than > being "yet another protocol". Taking a new protocol and calling it"BGP" > does not necessarily result in an opex savings. Auto-discovery protocols > need to be evaluated on the basis of functionality, cost, security, > unintended side-effects, etc., not on the basis of what name they are giv= en. > > Robert> Last it is often the case today - when running no overlay - to > advertise dynamically VMs or LXCs addresses to TORs via routing protocol = - > say BGP. What happens when now the LXCs or VMs will start sending such BG= P > Hellos directly to TORs ? Do you envision that this proposal will > automatically establish BGP sessions with those tenant entities if they > happen to be on the same subnet then compute node itself ? > > > > Nikos> Do you need to enable such functionality on the VMs or LXCs? > > One certainly has to deal with the possibility that a Hello will come in > on an interface that is "DC-facing" rather than "network-facing". > > Presumably one wouldn't intentionally enable such functionality on an > arbitrary tenant VM. Not intentionally. Also, is it really inconceivabl= e > that a malicious tenant may find a way to cause the Hellos to be generate= d > even if the functionality has not been enabled? > > Something that all the auto-discovery proposals need to make clear is how > much provisioning has to be done before the auto-discovery protocol start= s > up. Perhaps the intention is that it is known by provisioning that certa= in > interfaces are allowed to lead to EBGP neighbors, and certain interfaces > are not? > > --0000000000002b8128057133a1ee Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>=C2=A0=C2=A0However, it's not good to introduce static routes to remote loopba= ck addresses from the automation perspective

It is actually = very good if you know how to do it correctly. I think Dino was asking this = question at the LSR WG mic yesterday. And someone responded: "But the = links break" oh .... hint: BFD works fine with static routes for a lon= g time !=C2=A0

Cheers,=
R.

<= br>
On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 4:56 PM, =E5=BE=90=E5= =B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) <xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> wrote:
Hi = Jim=EF=BC=8C

For small or even medium-sized DC fabrics, script and e= ven CLI is sufficient. For large-scale DC fabric, automation and simplicity= is always needed. For the use of BGP as IGP in MSDC, it's better to bo= rrow the automation of IGP into IGP so as to simplify the configuration. Fu= rthermore, it's desirable to establish BGP sessions over loopback addre= sses when there are multiple links among a give peer of switches. However, = it's not good to introduce static routes to remote loopback addresses f= rom the automation perspective, also not good to introduce another complex = routing protocol such as ISIS or OSPF just for advertising the loopback add= resses.

Best regards,
Xiaohu





---------------------------------= ---------------------------------
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC= =9AUTTARO, JAMES<ju1= 738@att.com>
=E6=97=A5=E3=80=80=E6=9C=9F=EF=BC=9A2018=E5=B9=B407= =E6=9C=8817=E6=97=A5 21:39:47
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9AKetan = Talaulikar (ketant)<ketant=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Susan Hares&l= t;shares@ndzh.com&= gt;; 'Eric C Rosen'<erosen@juniper.net>; 'Nikos Triantafillis'<ntriantafillis@= gmail.com>; 'Robert Raszuk'<robert@raszuk.net>
=E6=8A=84=E3=80= =80=E9=80=81=EF=BC=9A'Keyur Patel'<keyur@arrcus.com>; draft-xu-idr-neig= hbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org<draft-xu-idr-neighbor-a= utodiscovery@ietf.org>; idr@ietf.org<idr@ietf.org>
=E4=B8=BB=E3=80=80=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9AR= e: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery
=


The main purpose of this draft = is to:

=C2=A0=

a)=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Simplify the MACD = in terms of adding Leafs/Spines into a DC fabric

b)=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Reduce the amount = of =E2=80=9Chuman touch=E2=80=9D needed for the care and feeding of the abo= ve?

=C2=A0=

Is there more to the ask here?

=C2=A0=

Why is scripting not sufficient= to meet this ask? IOW what is unique here the IP Addresses, number of inte= rface, ASN List etc=E2=80=A6

=C2=A0=

I would like to better understa= nd the trade-off between the added complexity of modifying BGP in the manne= r proposed and the simplification..

=C2=A0=

It would be useful to provide m= ore information as to the driver(s) for this draft=E2=80=A6

=C2=A0=

Thanks,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Jim Uttaro<= /u>

=C2=A0=

From: Idr [mailto:i= dr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 3:28 PM
To: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>; 'Eric C Rosen' <erosen@juniper.net>; 'Niko= s Triantafillis' <ntriantafillis@gmail.com>; 'Robert Raszuk' <<= a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net= >
Cc: 'Keyur Patel' <keyur@arrcus.com>; draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org; idr@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-a= utodiscovery

=C2=A0

Hello Eric/All,=

=C2=A0

We have updated the do= cument with more details based on the feedback and comments received from t= he WG. I hope this better describes the proposal and provides clarity on its interactions with the BGP protocol operations.=

=C2=A0

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-idr-neighb= or-autodiscovery-09

=C2=A0

Would request to pleas= e review this version and share your inputs/comments.<= /p>

=C2=A0

Thanks,<= /span>

Ketan

=C2=A0

From: Idr <idr-b= ounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: 16 July 2018 14:22
To: 'Eric C Rosen' <erosen@juniper.net>; 'Nikos Triantafillis'= ; <ntriant= afillis@gmail.com>; 'Robert Raszuk' <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: 'Keyur Patel' <keyur@arrcus.com>; draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org; idr@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-a= utodiscovery

=C2=A0

Eric:

=C2=A0

If you get time to send details on th= is analysis, will you include:

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 draft-raszuk-idr-bgp-auto-s= ession-setup-00

=C2=A0

Robert would appreciate the feedback = (and so would I).

=C2=A0

Thank you, Sue

=C2=A0

From: Idr [mailto:idr= -bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 2:14 PM
To: 'Eric C Rosen'; 'Nikos Triantafillis'; 'Robe= rt Raszuk'
Cc: 'Keyur Patel'; draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org; idr@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-a= utodiscovery

=C2=A0

Eric :

=C2=A0

Could you provide a short summary on = your opinion on potential auto-discovery protocols based on functionality, = cost security, unintended side

<= span>a)=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autod= iscovery

<= span>b)=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Use of LLDP (draft-acee-idr-lldp= -peer-discovery)

<= span>c)=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A multicast of neighbor informat= ion

=C2=A0

I know you=E2=80=99ve mentioned part = of this information in other messages --- but I think it would be very usef= ul to advance the discussion on this draft.

=C2=A0

Thank you,

=C2=A0

Sue Hares

=C2=A0

From: Idr [mailto:idr= -bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric C Rosen
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 11:51 AM
To: Nikos Triantafillis; Robert Raszuk
Cc: Keyur Patel; draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org; Susan Hares; idr@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-a= utodiscovery

=C2=A0

Nikos> a much simpler one to address than asking someone to run= yet another protocol if the functionality could be provided by enhancing t= he existing one they run.

The proposal is to define a brand new message type that is carried in UDP (= as a multicast datagram!), rather than being carried on a BGP session.=C2= =A0=C2=A0 It's hard to see why that is considered to be "enhancing= BGP" rather than being "yet another protocol".=C2=A0=C2=A0 = Taking a new protocol and calling it"BGP" does not necessarily result i= n an opex savings.=C2=A0 Auto-discovery protocols need to be evaluated on t= he basis of functionality, cost, security, unintended side-effects, etc., n= ot on the basis of what name they are given.

Robert> Last it is often the case today - when runnin= g no overlay - to advertise dynamically VMs or LXCs addresses to TORs via r= outing protocol - say BGP. What happens when now the LXCs or VMs will start sending such BGP Hellos directly to TORs ? Do y= ou envision that this proposal will automatically establish BGP sessions wi= th those tenant entities if they happen to be on the same subnet then compu= te node itself ?=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Nikos> Do you need to enable such functionality on the VMs or L= XCs?

One certainly has to deal with the possibility that a Hello will come in on= an interface that is "DC-facing" rather than "network-facin= g".=C2=A0

Presumably one wouldn't intentionally enable such functionality on an a= rbitrary tenant VM.=C2=A0 Not intentionally.=C2=A0 Also, is it really incon= ceivable that a malicious tenant may find a way to cause the Hellos to be g= enerated even if the functionality has not been enabled?

Something that all the auto-discovery proposals need to make clear is how m= uch provisioning has to be done before the auto-discovery protocol starts u= p.=C2=A0 Perhaps the intention is that it is known by provisioning that cer= tain interfaces are allowed to lead to EBGP neighbors,=C2=A0 and certain interfaces are not?



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You do not turn BGP into link state protocol because you like to apply LSVR or BGP-SR-TE in the DCs. Its completely upside down. That's why my draft =E2=80=8B https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-raszuk-idr-bgp-auto-session-setup-00 is a simple and short honesty check. Is this discussion about helping to bring the BGP sessions up in some env. or it is rather a black box which bringing BGP discovery is just a label on it and content will explode in no time when its shipped ? Thx, R. --0000000000007765f8057133b134 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
By the way, in addition to au= tomate and simplify the use of BGP as IGP in MSDC, the BGP peer auto-discov= ery mechanism as described in this draft has the potential to be applicable= to BGP-SR-TE and LSVR as well.

Sorry for touching the LSVR cheese = unintentionally:)


=E2=80=8BAnd that is precisely the fundamental issue not a fea= ture to be proud about here. You do not turn BGP into link state protocol b= ecause you like to apply LSVR or BGP-SR-TE in the DCs.=C2=A0

Its completely upside down.=C2=A0

That's why my draft = =E2=80=8Bhttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-raszuk-idr-bgp-auto-sess= ion-setup-00 is a simple and short honesty check. Is this discussion ab= out helping to bring the BGP sessions up in some env. or it is rather a bla= ck box which bringing BGP discovery is just a label on it and content will = explode in no time when its shipped ?=C2=A0

Thx,
R.




=C2=A0
=
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(amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XqO0XFfSwgtV; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 09:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x22d.google.com (mail-pf0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE605130DE4; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 09:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id l123-v6so712054pfl.13; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 09:01:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=hc2YIEPvYtQUHFoPOKVljI+hHjayxFpXYaSsaDMpT40=; b=sUh3+CXMgyJJVtfbAOChpqM7daUapLxisEYDaJGPpyp3rhhSKe+v7/GHHCjVHP+Ivi jXm5OEnTJV/QR0oMOkC3ZgAB1s3IQav3LI9g342y132GKO9ded+6zVvPPp7Nmul9aufK 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AAOMgpeqj5CCad47kPYK77BsC/mNl1JdLekh7JvkUR3Lc0AOTQ5nxUhQ/CUBHOwaDZl3MChMFkzh3CkTmg1tciSeFns= X-Received: by 2002:a65:5641:: with SMTP id m1-v6mr2208848pgs.246.1531843277092; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 09:01:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a17:90a:d396:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jul 2018 09:01:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <28244993-23fc-4a14-a5e3-da20104a161d.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> References: <19AB2A007F56DB4E8257F949A2FB9858DC3B8B4C@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D8F45D82A@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> <1ec22cba-dbee-4b65-8a75-a8afa213e8bb.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> <28244993-23fc-4a14-a5e3-da20104a161d.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 18:01:16 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: hWPhfBDZ2QK_BGwHGdFsFZ5IWF8 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?= Cc: Idr , Lizhenbin , Susan Hares , "idr@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000061fd080571340ee7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBXRyBhZG9wdGlvbiBjYWxsIGZvciBkcmFmdC14?= =?utf-8?q?u-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery?= X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 16:01:30 -0000 --00000000000061fd080571340ee7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Quote: "peer no longer wishes to keep *BGP session*" On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 5:45 PM, =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5= =85=88) wrote: > Where did you find that the quoted text talks about BGP sessions? > > Xiaohu > > > > > > =E6=9D=A5=E8=87=AA=E9=92=89=E9=92=89=E4=B8=93=E5=B1=9E=E5=95=86=E5=8A=A1= =E9=82=AE=E7=AE=B1 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9ARobert Raszuk > =E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F=EF=BC=9A2018=E5=B9=B407=E6=9C=8817=E6=97=A5 21:09:46 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89= =E5=85=88) > =E6=8A=84 =E9=80=81=EF=BC=9AIdr; Lizhenbin; Susan > Hares; idr@ietf.org > =E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9ARe: [Idr] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: WG adoption cal= l for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery > > > Xiaohu, > > > A) Permanently installing routes in RIB & FIB carried in BGP Hellos TLVs >> which are UDP based is something never heard of. Clearly you are up to >> great precedence here. There is no mention in the current draft when suc= h >> routes are removed. >> >> [Xiaohu] It said in the draft that " >> >> If the timer >> expires without receipt of a matching Hello from the peer, BGP >> concludes that the peer no longer wishes to keep BGP session for that >> link or that the peer has failed. The BGP peer then deletes the >> Hello adjacency. The route towards the BGP neighbor's loopback >> address that had been dynamically created due to that BGP Hello >> adjacency SHOULD be deleted accordingly. " >> >> > > > =E2=80=8BYou did not responded to the question at all as I never asked ab= out BGP > session above. There is no BGP session between loopbacks till you put > routes in RIB and FIB as loopback is still unreachable. =E2=80=8BIn your = draft you > are putting the routes from TLVs carried in UDP and not only how to reach > loopback but also all the atomic connected addresses on how to ECMP towar= ds > loopback. Observe that in my proposal I am not doing it. > > IMO that is not acceptable. > > Now since you quoted the above note that even some of your own co-authors > declared this is going away and session will not be brought down upon > missing hellos. It is sufficient to keep any BGP session up based on the > keepalives, bfd or manual shut. > > In fact just few lines below you agree that periodic hellos may not be > necessary when the session is up. > > Very confusing picture ... > > [Xiaohu] Could you please explicitly point out which TLVs are not needed? >> >> > > =E2=80=8BAll of them. =E2=80=8B > > C) Creation of new message instead of using existing BGP message requires >> more changes then necessary. It also allows for extensible framework whi= ch >> while normally is a feature here has a clear potential to be rather a ba= d >> thing. >> >> [Xiaohu] Which existing BGP message could be used for this BGP peer >> auto-discovery purpose from your POV? >> >> > > =E2=80=8BBGP Open Message. =E2=80=8B > > > > > >> D) Sending BGP Hellos periodically - after session is up does not seems >> to bring any value especially for p2p links. For LANs on the other hand = (if >> such requirement is in place) there are much better solutions other then >> periodic BGP Hellos. >> >> [Xiaohu] Good point. We could consider how to optimize it in the future. >> Do you have any concrete suggestions for such optimization? >> >> > > =E2=80=8Bas above ... =E2=80=8B > > =E2=80=8BThx, > R.=E2=80=8B > > > --00000000000061fd080571340ee7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Quote:

"peer no longer wishes to keep BGP session<=
/b>"

On Tu= e, Jul 17, 2018 at 5:45 PM, =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88)= <xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> wrote:
Where did you find that the quoted text talks about BGP= sessions?

Xiaohu





--= ----------------------------------------------------------------<= br>=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9ARobert Raszuk<robert@raszuk.net>
=E6=97=A5= =E3=80=80=E6=9C=9F=EF=BC=9A2018=E5=B9=B407=E6=9C=8817=E6=97=A5 21:09:46
= =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89= =E5=85=88)<xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com>
=E6=8A=84=E3=80=80=E9=80=81= =EF=BC=9AIdr<i= dr-bounces@ietf.org>; Lizhenbin<lizhenbin@huawei.com>; Susan Hares<= shares@ndzh.com>= ;; idr@ietf.org<idr@ietf.org>
=E4= =B8=BB=E3=80=80=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9ARe: [Idr] =E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D: WG adoption = call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

Xiaohu,

A) = Permanently installing routes in RIB & FIB carried in BGP Hellos TLVs w= hich are UDP based is something never heard of. Clearly you are up to great= precedence here. There is no mention in the current draft when such routes= are removed.=C2=A0

[Xiaohu] It said in the draft that &quo= t;
   If the timer
   expires without receipt of a matching Hello from the peer, BGP
   concludes that the peer no longer wishes to keep BGP session for that
   link or that the peer has failed.  The BGP peer then deletes the
   Hello adjacency.  The route towards the BGP neighbor's loopback
   address that had been dynamically created due to that BGP Hello
   adjacency SHOULD be deleted accordingly. "
=



=
=E2=80=8BYou did not responded to the question at all as= I never asked about BGP session above. There is no BGP session between loo= pbacks till you put routes in RIB and FIB as loopback is still unreachable.= =E2=80=8BIn your draft you are putting the routes from TLVs carried in UDP= and not only how to reach loopback but also all the atomic connected addre= sses on how to ECMP towards loopback. Observe that in my proposal I am not = doing it.=C2=A0

IMO th= at is not acceptable.=C2=A0

Now since you quoted the above note that even some of your own co-aut= hors declared this is going away and session will not be brought down upon = missing hellos. It is sufficient to keep any BGP session up based on the ke= epalives, bfd or manual shut.=C2=A0

In fact just few lines below you agree that periodic hellos m= ay not be necessary when the session is up.=C2=A0
<= br>
Very confusing picture ...=C2=A0

[Xiaohu] Could you please explicitly point out=C2=A0which=C2=A0TLVs a= re not needed?
<= br>

=E2=80=8BAll of them. =E2= =80=8B

C) Creation of new message instead of using existing BGP message requires= more changes then necessary. It also allows for extensible framework which= while normally is a feature here has a clear potential to be rather a bad = thing.=C2=A0=C2=A0

[Xiaohu] Which existing BGP message coul= d be used for this BGP peer auto-discovery=C2=A0purpose from your POV?=C2= =A0


=E2=80=8BBGP Open Message. =E2=80=8B



=C2=A0
D) Sending BGP Hellos periodically - after se= ssion is up does not seems to bring any value especially for p2p links. For= LANs on the other hand (if such requirement is in place) there are much be= tter solutions other then periodic BGP Hellos.=C2=A0

<= div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">[Xiaoh= u] Good point. We could consider how to optimize it in the future. Do you h= ave any concrete suggestions for such optimization?


= =E2=80=8Bas above ... =E2=80=8B

=E2= =80=8BThx,
R.=E2=80=8B



+1

From time to time we all get last IETF day slots, this is part of t= he fair allocation process, nothing to be sorry about!

 

Cheers,

Jeff

 

Fro= m: Idr <idr-bounces= @ietf.org> on behalf of Job Snijders <job@instituut.net>
Date= : Thursday, July 5, 2018 at 15:45
To: John Scudder <jgs@jun= iper.net>
Cc: "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>
= Subject: Re: [Idr] Note Friday IDR session

 

Don=E2=80=99t be sorry!

 

On Thu, 5 Jul 2018 at 20:38, = John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net> wr= ote:

Hi All,

A few people have contacted the chairs to ex= press dismay about our being scheduled in the coveted last Friday slot. We a= re not any more excited about it than you are (I had to change my return fli= ght) but it is not an administrative error -- as those of us who follow the = IETF organizational stuff at all know, the IETF meets all week, including Fr= iday. We just were the ones who lost the lottery, this time.

Anyway, = I wanted to make sure you all knew we're scheduled Friday 11:50 - 13:20. If = you look at the agenda Jie posted yesterday you will see we will likely use = most of that time slot.

Thanks (& sorry),

--John
______= _________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/idr

_= ______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

--B_3613652843_870427355-- From nobody Fri Jul 6 01:06:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52CA4130E8D for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 01:06:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R8P7fxGXWCTU for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 01:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76FAF128CF3 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 01:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.4] (c83-250-142-104.bredband.comhem.se [83.250.142.104]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EE90F1801510 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2018 10:06:28 +0200 (CEST) To: idr@ietf.org References: <55193C50-FE75-4591-9970-5D049382B8CF@gmail.com> From: Loa Andersson Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 10:06:28 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <55193C50-FE75-4591-9970-5D049382B8CF@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Note Friday IDR session X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2018 08:06:33 -0000 Folks, For me this actually works the other way, for the last couple of meetings I have had conflicts that stopped me from attending the idr-meetings. This meeting there is no such conflict. Also with bess on Friday morning, the Friday will be an interesting day, well worth attending. /Loa On 2018-07-06 01:27, Jeff Tantsura wrote: > +1 > > From time to time we all get last IETF day slots, this is part of the > fair allocation process, nothing to be sorry about! > > Cheers, > > Jeff > > *From: *Idr on behalf of Job Snijders > > *Date: *Thursday, July 5, 2018 at 15:45 > *To: *John Scudder > *Cc: *"idr@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: [Idr] Note Friday IDR session > > Don’t be sorry! > > On Thu, 5 Jul 2018 at 20:38, John Scudder > wrote: > > Hi All, > > A few people have contacted the chairs to express dismay about our > being scheduled in the coveted last Friday slot. We are not any more > excited about it than you are (I had to change my return flight) but > it is not an administrative error -- as those of us who follow the > IETF organizational stuff at all know, the IETF meets all week, > including Friday. We just were the ones who lost the lottery, this time. > > Anyway, I wanted to make sure you all knew we're scheduled Friday > 11:50 - 13:20. If you look at the agenda Jie posted yesterday you > will see we will likely use most of that time slot. > > Thanks (& sorry), > > --John > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > -- Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu Senior MPLS Expert Bronze Dragon Consulting phone: +46 739 81 21 64 From nobody Mon Jul 9 13:13:55 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FA07130E6C; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 13:13:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZFmaFh4fDc7w; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 13:13:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01F1D130DE1; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 13:13:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id AEA86669A4AFF; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 21:13:47 +0100 (IST) Received: from SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.208.112.38) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.382.0; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 21:13:49 +0100 Received: from SJCEML521-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.132]) by SJCEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.236]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 13:13:42 -0700 From: Linda Dunbar To: Eric C Rosen , "idr@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? Thread-Index: AdQXv91niaVIoQP4S3iBJJofCkWjzg== Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 20:13:42 +0000 Message-ID: <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A7BA3@sjceml521-mbs.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.153.102] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A7BA3sjceml521mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 20:13:54 -0000 --_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A7BA3sjceml521mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric, draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 discussed ways to resolve conflicts of mult= iple UPDATE messages with Tunnel Encap attributes. Is it possible to have following capability? - Have a bit indicating a specific UPDATE is from authoritative sour= ce, therefore overwrite all other Tunnel Attributes for the Prefix X to avo= id recursive next hop issues and tunnel selection at the receiving Router? - Have a bit indicating that a specific UPDATE only contain Tunnel a= ttributes for the receiving Router, therefore can't be forwarded? You said that SAFI 7 is deprecated because no one seemed interested in usin= g it. We are very interested in using it because - it can be easily distinguished from normal BGP UPDATE - The receiving router doesn't have to "Filter" the tunnel attribut= es before forwarding to others. - Can even be used for passing reconfigured IPsec keys to two ends o= f a tunnel. Therefore we think SAFI 7 should be reserved. Thanks, Linda Dunbar From: Eric C Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2018 12:21 PM To: Linda Dunbar ; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tu= nnel-encaps@ietf.org Subject: Re: What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? can draft-ietf-idr= -tunnel-encaps-09 preserve trigger tunnel creation before VPN is establishe= d? On 7/2/2018 6:31 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote: Eric, IDR group, It is indicated that RFC5512 is to be replaced by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-enc= aps. But draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 stated that it deprecates the Encapsulation SAFI. We find the Encapsulation SAFI is quite useful for CPE based EVPN. For exa= mple, a Controller (say RR) can send an update with Encapsulation SAFI to t= wo end points to trigger a tunnel establishment between them. What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? Can we preserve it in draft-iet= f-idr-tunnel-encaps? Thanks, Linda Dunbar SAFI 7 was deprecated because no one seemed interested in using it, it crea= tes additional operational issues, there is no real need for it, and it was= discouraging folks from actually using the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute.= This is discussed briefly in section 1.2 of the draft. You can get a similar effect by using the technique described in section 7 = of the draft. If PE1 is the egress point of a tunnel, have PE1 originate an UPDATE whose = NLRI is PE1's loopback address. Put the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute (wi= th PE1 as remote endpoint) on this UPDATE. (The next hop field of this UPD= ATE doesn't really matter, as long as it is resolvable.) When PE1 originat= es VPN routes, it sets the next hop to be its loopback address. Per sectio= n 7, this will result in packets being sent to PE1 though the specified tun= nel. --_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A7BA3sjceml521mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Eric,

 

draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-= encaps-09 discussed ways to resolve conflicts of multiple UPDATE messages w= ith Tunnel Encap attributes.

 

Is it possible to have= following capability?

-&nb= sp;       Have a bit ind= icating a specific UPDATE is from authoritative source, therefore overwrite= all other Tunnel Attributes for the Prefix X to avoid recursive next hop i= ssues and tunnel selection at the receiving Router?

-&nb= sp;       Have a bit ind= icating that a specific UPDATE only contain Tunnel attributes for the recei= ving Router, therefore can’t be forwarded?

 

You said that SAFI 7 i= s deprecated because no one seemed interested in using it. We are very inte= rested in using it because

-&nb= sp;       it can be easi= ly distinguished from normal  BGP UPDATE

-&nb= sp;        The rece= iving router doesn’t have to “Filter” the tunnel attribut= es before forwarding to others.  

-&nb= sp;       Can even be us= ed for passing reconfigured IPsec keys to two ends of a tunnel.

 

Therefore we think SAF= I 7 should be reserved.

 

Thanks, Linda Dunbar

 

From:= Eric C Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2018 12:21 PM
To: Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>; idr@ietf.org; draf= t-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org
Subject: Re: What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? can draft-i= etf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 preserve trigger tunnel creation before VPN is est= ablished?

 

On 7/2/2018 6:31 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote:

Eric, IDR group,

 

It is indicated that RFC5512 is to be replaced by draft-ietf-idr-tu= nnel-encaps. But draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 stated that it deprecates the

Encapsulation SAFI.

 

We find the Encapsulat= ion SAFI is quite useful for CPE based EVPN.  For example, a Controlle= r (say RR) can send an update with Encapsulation SAFI to two end points to = trigger a tunnel establishment between them.

What are side effect f= or having Encap SAFI? Can we preserve it in draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps?

 

Thanks, Linda Dunbar

 


SAFI 7 was deprecated because no one seemed interested in using it, it crea= tes additional operational issues, there is no real need for it, and it was= discouraging folks from actually using the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute.=   This is discussed briefly in section 1.2 of the draft.

You can get a similar effect by using the technique described in section 7 = of the draft.

If PE1 is the egress point of a tunnel, have PE1 originate an UPDATE whose = NLRI is PE1's loopback address.  Put the Tunnel Encapsulation attribut= e (with PE1 as remote endpoint) on this UPDATE.  (The next hop field o= f this UPDATE doesn't really matter, as long as it is resolvable.)  When PE1 originates VPN routes, it sets the ne= xt hop to be its loopback address.  Per section 7, this will result in= packets being sent to PE1 though the specified tunnel.

 

--_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F66B0A7BA3sjceml521mbschi_-- From nobody Mon Jul 9 13:24:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2E44131065; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 13:24:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.988 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.988 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SW_R6NQaVoYn; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 13:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x232.google.com (mail-yw0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 15F49131057; Mon, 9 Jul 2018 13:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x232.google.com with SMTP id p129-v6so7013193ywg.7; Mon, 09 Jul 2018 13:24:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=user-agent:date:subject:from:to:message-id:thread-topic :mime-version; bh=OnPhfTDFpkr7d6F92YrYoUdH9zEgjY2Z1rj9BKWouxE=; b=ePcP8jQdM08MAL2ultvyYkOFxWE7Sb+uPHu2MdHESB6mcKBiW4Zd0JLXEbbb8IlKQB 1UnOjy4NW69bR4uyCcdyUxMZ1BdZAy/voZqxo1aDUZXWkWANYDPEupLKua/WW3zSJWht VTj5AkrMATRO2OEIuhF0RyjTysercURwrQABEh9fCdXmPtjy4y34+NpG9c1qMS5LHdgt LoVv0fI1egi3EOcLqt7az7q90efL52OIE/FZCQVLDdcimjPjJWSyNUiwLHCKhq4drwjB pGFwtgK9NdJU3ZeBq107axVhWfZ4qoUgesvGdoIGG5LpmTAQCZshyzl5kd7NSN9BtnaC USaw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:user-agent:date:subject:from:to:message-id :thread-topic:mime-version; bh=OnPhfTDFpkr7d6F92YrYoUdH9zEgjY2Z1rj9BKWouxE=; b=uk40cjsdzL2GIIsUmSqZyjdis1U5JH6Oj3NthZenIuQbIN2apF9QnjLD6eNz1mtcWj SRHx5vwiWYG5R5XoolQDIMKvYe1Hr9fTwFnPPTIlwlMIKykIGgbSSkS3Exd83vMd0Cws 7INxmPvfqG33d4/PLJFWdyzxBODJbbtbq7CwL0r/D9Qkrla2k1osxPt/LrZv6HtvAC8D L8ki/Er5ERFUiqAmHUfMaCN6wu+REuwCwiVTbfYgaFK0lj/TO6xmwT2duIxOzAhyb9x/ r8TYMW1cgo9t+xCD2ulwTdDKePuDMRe4GWXYVEwgp0kt5bRwWM1N4r3hr/I3BP0YlINX A1jQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APt69E0LFDFRVUpM1ur8GPQpU0ZjhpdwZ8CjH4vONLy5UAn3cjatkkC1 gptVVh7YWasSnVdt4BQNNNw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcRAagnTaD0QQWMQ2P+EjHrI2snfIn+OkS9YV8XRCgMvvuOxsr2dvLObdy9GlDjA8sbtupH3g== X-Received: by 2002:a81:1cd5:: with SMTP id c204-v6mr10998225ywc.335.1531167878122; Mon, 09 Jul 2018 13:24:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [135.227.239.108] ([66.201.62.254]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 1-v6sm6554373ywr.24.2018.07.09.13.24.36 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 09 Jul 2018 13:24:37 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.e.1.180613 Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 13:24:33 -0700 From: Jeff Tantsura To: Linda Dunbar , Eric C Rosen , "idr@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" Message-ID: <78D707C9-6DC2-459F-81E4-A53B46F1F019@gmail.com> Thread-Topic: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3613987477_1145753576" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2018 20:24:43 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3613987477_1145753576 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Linda, =20 Why would you want to build what you are trying to do into protocol? #1 local policy #2 =C2=A0NO_ADVERTISE does that exactly=20 =20 Cheers, Jeff =20 From: Idr on behalf of Linda Dunbar Date: Monday, July 9, 2018 at 13:14 To: Eric C Rosen , "idr@ietf.org" , "draf= t-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" Subject: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for Tunnels established by draft= -ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ? =20 Eric,=20 =20 draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 discussed ways to resolve conflicts of mult= iple UPDATE messages with Tunnel Encap attributes.=20 =20 Is it possible to have following capability?=20 Have a bit indicating a specific UPDATE is from authoritative source, there= fore overwrite all other Tunnel Attributes for the Prefix X to avoid recursi= ve next hop issues and tunnel selection at the receiving Router?=20 Have a bit indicating that a specific UPDATE only contain Tunnel attributes= for the receiving Router, therefore can=E2=80=99t be forwarded?=20 =20 You said that SAFI 7 is deprecated because no one seemed interested in usin= g it. We are very interested in using it because=20 it can be easily distinguished from normal BGP UPDATE The receiving router doesn=E2=80=99t have to =E2=80=9CFilter=E2=80=9D the tunnel attributes = before forwarding to others. =20 Can even be used for passing reconfigured IPsec keys to two ends of a tunne= l.=20 =20 Therefore we think SAFI 7 should be reserved.=20 =20 Thanks, Linda Dunbar =20 From: Eric C Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net]=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2018 12:21 PM To: Linda Dunbar ; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tu= nnel-encaps@ietf.org Subject: Re: What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? can draft-ietf-idr= -tunnel-encaps-09 preserve trigger tunnel creation before VPN is established= ? =20 On 7/2/2018 6:31 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote: Eric, IDR group,=20 =20 It is indicated that RFC5512 is to be replaced by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-enc= aps. But draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 stated that it deprecates the Encapsulation SAFI.=20 =20 We find the Encapsulation SAFI is quite useful for CPE based EVPN. For exa= mple, a Controller (say RR) can send an update with Encapsulation SAFI to tw= o end points to trigger a tunnel establishment between them.=20 What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? Can we preserve it in draft-iet= f-idr-tunnel-encaps? =20 Thanks, Linda Dunbar =20 SAFI 7 was deprecated because no one seemed interested in using it, it crea= tes additional operational issues, there is no real need for it, and it was = discouraging folks from actually using the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute. = This is discussed briefly in section 1.2 of the draft. You can get a similar effect by using the technique described in section 7 = of the draft. If PE1 is the egress point of a tunnel, have PE1 originate an UPDATE whose = NLRI is PE1's loopback address. Put the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute (wit= h PE1 as remote endpoint) on this UPDATE. (The next hop field of this UPDAT= E doesn't really matter, as long as it is resolvable.) When PE1 originates = VPN routes, it sets the next hop to be its loopback address. Per section 7,= this will result in packets being sent to PE1 though the specified tunnel. =20 _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.o= rg https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr=20 --B_3613987477_1145753576 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Linda,

&= nbsp;

Why = would you want to build what you are trying to do into protocol?<= /span>

#1 local policy<= o:p>

#2 =C2=A0= NO_ADVERTISE does that exactly

 

Cheers,

Jeff

 

From: Idr <idr-= bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com&g= t;
Date: Monday, July 9, 2018 at 13:14
To: Eric C Rosen = <erosen@juniper.net>, "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>, &= quot;draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-e= ncaps@ietf.org>
Subject: [Idr] Possible to set up priority for = Tunnels established by draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 ?

 

Eric,

 

draft-ietf= -idr-tunnel-encaps-09 discussed ways to resolve conflicts of multiple UPDATE= messages with Tunnel Encap attributes.

 

Is it possible to have following capability?=

  • Have a bit indicating a specific UPDATE is from authoritative sou= rce, therefore overwrite all other Tunnel Attributes for the Prefix X to avo= id recursive next hop issues and tunnel selection at the receiving Router? <= /span>
  • Have a bit indicating that = a specific UPDATE only contain Tunnel attributes for the receiving Router, t= herefore can=E2=80=99t be forwarded?

 

You said that SAFI 7 is deprecated becau= se no one seemed interested in using it. We are very interested in using it = because

  • it can be easily distinguished from normal  BGP UPDAT= E
  •  The receiving route= r doesn=E2=80=99t have to =E2=80=9CFilter=E2=80=9D the tunnel attributes before forwarding to = others.  
  • Can even be = used for passing reconfigured IPsec keys to two ends of a tunnel.

 

Therefore we= think SAFI 7 should be reserved.

<= span style=3D'color:#1F497D'> 

Thanks, Linda Dunbar

 

From: Eric C Rosen [mailto:erosen@juniper.net]
S= ent: Tuesday, July 03, 2018 12:21 PM
To: Linda Dunbar <lind= a.dunbar@huawei.com>; idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps@ietf.org=
Subject: Re: What are side effect for having Encap SAFI? can draf= t-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 preserve trigger tunnel creation before VPN is e= stablished?

 <= /o:p>

On 7/2/2018 6:31 PM, Linda Dunbar wrote:

=

=

Eric, IDR group, =

 <= /o:p>

It is indicated that RFC5512 is to be replaced by draft-ietf-idr-tun= nel-encaps. But draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-09 stated that it deprecates the=

Encapsulation SAFI.

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> 

We find the Encapsulation SAFI is quite useful for CPE based EVPN. =  For example, a Controller (say RR) can send an update with Encapsulati= on SAFI to two end points to trigger a tunnel establishment between them.

What are = side effect for having Encap SAFI? Can we preserve it in draft-ietf-idr-tunn= el-encaps?

 

Thanks, Linda Dunbar

 

<= span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>
SAFI 7= was deprecated because no one seemed interested in using it, it creates add= itional operational issues, there is no real need for it, and it was discour= aging folks from actually using the Tunnel Encapsulation attribute.  Th= is is discussed briefly in section 1.2 of the draft.

You can get a si= milar effect by using the technique described in section 7 of the draft.
=
If PE1 is the egress point of a tunnel, have PE1 originate an UPDATE who= se NLRI is PE1's loopback address.  Put the Tunnel Encapsulation attrib= ute (with PE1 as remote endpoint) on this UPDATE.  (The next hop field = of this UPDATE doesn't really matter, as long as it is resolvable.)  Wh= en PE1 originates VPN routes, it sets the next hop to be its loopback addres= s.  Per section 7, this will result in packets being sent to PE1 though= the specified tunnel.

 

____________________________________________= ___ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr =

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Reminde= r again,  please the presenters send your presentation slides by end o= f TODAY.

&n= bsp;

Best re= gards,

Jie

&n= bsp;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Dongjie (Jimmy)
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:<= /span> 2018=C4=EA7=D4=C216=C8=D5 9:55
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: idr@ietf.org
=B3=AD=CB=CD: idr-chairs@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Idr] =B4=F0=B8=B4: Draft IDR agenda posted

 

A remin= der to the presenters:

&n= bsp;

Please = send your presentation slides by Wednesday. Thanks.

&n= bsp;

Best re= gards,

Jie

&n= bsp;

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Idr [m= ailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Dongjie (Jimmy)
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4:<= /span> 2018=C4=EA7=D4=C24=C8=D5 8:17
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: idr@ietf.org
=B3=AD=CB=CD: idr-chairs@ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Idr] Draft IDR agenda posted

 

Dear all,

 

The draft agenda of IDR session= is posted:

 

https://datatracker.ietf.= org/meeting/102/materials/agenda-102-idr-00

 

Please let us know if you ha= ve any problem with it.

 

Presenters, <= /p>

 

Please prepare to send your sli= des to me and CC the chairs. The deadline for slides is 24 hours prior to o= ur first session (Thursday) , though earlier is better.

 

And please take a look at the c= hecklist for presenting at IDR:

https://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/idr/trac/wiki/Checklist%20for%20presen= ting%20at%20an%20IDR%20meeting

 

Best regards,=

Jie

 

--_000_76CD132C3ADEF848BD84D028D243C927A70901BENKGEML515MBXchi_-- From nobody Wed Jul 18 08:18:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B7CE1311CF for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 08:18:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D0c-jv-VAKxk for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 08:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C26B61311B0 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 08:17:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1061; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1531927079; x=1533136679; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=R9i/2VjKPC/emcIZtwEL0jCL6hzhoIVTmkZqeH5pH8A=; b=R78Axc/M9LV3IP9thGMLpsVkrcSqQKwWcWulU8v050NAwrK2PLKl4xFV YAvyWWJLXSNuGtN+DGsBsrPV6moMj1VLhYR4z6UFqPtz6CGQlEBy+7Yp2 bvl42V6BBD/c1kMmUhqkHNwnOUacPR3BtQ49mSpqbaxTAajSgQFCkqsw5 E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CWAQA/WU9b/5FdJa1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYNJgWIoCpgkggyXMwuEbAKCeSE3FQECAQECAQECbSiFNgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQMBHR0/BQcEAgEIDgcBIBAyJQIEDgUIhRAIqw+KSYkCgVc/hCKKUQKMWo0?= =?us-ascii?q?GCQKPHY1ukXACERSBJDMigVJwFYMkkFNvi3qBGgEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,370,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="144504270" Received: from rcdn-core-9.cisco.com ([173.37.93.145]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 18 Jul 2018 15:17:58 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-011.cisco.com (xch-aln-011.cisco.com [173.36.7.21]) by rcdn-core-9.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6IFHwJ8028724 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 18 Jul 2018 15:17:58 GMT Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com (173.36.7.24) by XCH-ALN-011.cisco.com (173.36.7.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 10:17:58 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) by XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 10:17:58 -0500 From: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" To: Jeffrey Haas CC: "idr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Thread-Index: AdQSJcQmPylai0FFTx6TtuTV7fzVrQIDBM+AADNtUwAAAXxugAABZG+AAI7sdgAABPZ5AAAASEWAAAhPQ/D//+PngP/9i6rQ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 15:17:58 +0000 Message-ID: <48f0a40f373247369ce9e86a79954211@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <6ACB426F-D10D-43E2-BC12-2D41D0CCE88A@arrcus.com> <20401d8c-4591-0507-776f-a154bc968245@juniper.net> <006401d41d30$b3e0b1f0$1ba215d0$@ndzh.com> <009a01d41d31$d4c96b40$7e5c41c0$@ndzh.com> <20180716203857.GC14105@pfrc.org> In-Reply-To: <20180716203857.GC14105@pfrc.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.65.54] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 15:18:14 -0000 There may be two network operators that want to auto-discover their own net= works. All their routers speak BGP. They may peer with each other, but do not want to auto-discover each other. They may peer with a protocol other than BGP. They may peer with BGP, but apply different routing policies. Whatever the case, they will treat the peering neighbor differently to thei= r own neighbors. A TLV to signal a network name can be used to distinguish these BGP neighbo= r types. Regards, Jakob. -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey Haas =20 Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 1:39 PM > In addition, I would like a TLV that contains a network name. Every speak= er in the same network will have the same network name. This can be used to= contain the discovery process within a named network if multiple networks = are connected together. I'm not sure I follow your use case, but prior discussion about names over BGP capabilities that help with the link local case definitely fit into thi= s rough space. -- Jeff From nobody Wed Jul 18 08:33:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2F3813118F for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 08:33:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UfXrIn15hICs for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 08:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x52d.google.com (mail-pg1-x52d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 652D6130F63 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 08:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id y4-v6so2169973pgp.9 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 08:33:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=qKqBverT3bVKrOK15ziqh6VcO3dcYcnFtaLt3LLdnSk=; b=NAXGCO4BZ2GO8OLTKkg1QAjhIbyxujUUDSJ6w9XYnD9oYZX2WnOpehJYRjf4uubsWf x5HNN0ScqMfEzcP3cI4VBbtJqSYErFdqrTYE1jAf2f8Afe6flNtmSV7dBCExrQ2s6Oid 41ykpj5DYshGKyTKrAxzYNtf2NA7du9mMEHTuIcHrhQTMacCsbUJZHpuEtt8TEn3hr3X 7FHEYlIPp6dxPy+r/Yry/7E/F5DS0VjMQqaUHMydIc7At2bKcFHfWuzqC42sAkvD1RDA nc+bhqj7K8DQIivJcKzQ8zJbhHGGQusV9YeDJAI4RcM47GCSaFILPqHFOauQWop+FYFC CqvQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qKqBverT3bVKrOK15ziqh6VcO3dcYcnFtaLt3LLdnSk=; b=BGjMJHPpiyCu833weUjDDBoQ2SUEWdtiS58IZTTOWTTKHD7CXWp3gy6wG2l5wCLBtU rgYZCbWHbaRk0pPW1w52jrACO5OyaL53mFmj9yVR3Si1XEl8IDeEdbveXlaKQVfPhwga WqR7TZ1J6lSEvvEdfxHljtDF0YWhh4UDniwAmhhzHb5r+dxEqQgs0FTqm3mbjVpMoxg0 lCG8MaYJnDl+LAv1HM9IrnP0vgqLNNzhYTZQ6pWCxeW3EcRCqS6kp3pI8Z4+LDswIOjj WowIkqQeh7dxtLU6QaKojRWydCIWmIujEXKAb/k9mkjMHKS9v3ikxpzNxZ0ihiiOUTrn xnJQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlEabK2bhnUJ6MZ7y1rJGfIfKeYXINQKeA/aPgRTIpWDd0FSbZP7 BsEXtPB8ktd1pGzIZyf1ERE0urjQRw0B0CA2TWm7tA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfOBKVbL2baacQLgaAmmcdxJ0VxivF3+MCqvVRvfj7voiT8olAZsbR6pv3P80BZsd5OqukwKJP5e9V9G7S2/Y8= X-Received: by 2002:a62:ce81:: with SMTP id y123-v6mr5709494pfg.95.1531928016603; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 08:33:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a17:90a:d396:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 08:33:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <48f0a40f373247369ce9e86a79954211@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <6ACB426F-D10D-43E2-BC12-2D41D0CCE88A@arrcus.com> <20401d8c-4591-0507-776f-a154bc968245@juniper.net> <006401d41d30$b3e0b1f0$1ba215d0$@ndzh.com> <009a01d41d31$d4c96b40$7e5c41c0$@ndzh.com> <20180716203857.GC14105@pfrc.org> <48f0a40f373247369ce9e86a79954211@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 17:33:35 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: r3XP_PpBcgeLrBDIbSlW-4Fhu94 Message-ID: To: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" Cc: Jeffrey Haas , "idr@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000404f53057147c9c0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 15:33:39 -0000 --000000000000404f53057147c9c0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > A TLV to signal a network name can be used to distinguish these BGP > neighbor types. > =E2=80=8BAnd how do you protect from spoofing such network name ? Regards, Robert. =E2=80=8B --000000000000404f53057147c9c0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0
A TLV to signal a network name = can be used to distinguish these BGP neighbor types.
<= br>
=E2=80=8BAnd how do you protect from spoof= ing such network name ?=C2=A0

Regards,
Robert.
<= br>
=E2=80=8B

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idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 15:43:16 -0000 --_000_c5300305ef224b6b974751bad7fa8302XCHALN014ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 V2l0aCB0aGUga2V5Y2hhaW4gVExWIGluIEFjZWUncyBkcmFmdC4NCkkgZGlkIGFzayB0byBjb21i aW5lIHRoZSBUTFZzIGZyb20gYm90aCBkcmFmdHMuDQpLZXljaGFpbiBuYW1lIGFuZCBuZXR3b3Jr IG5hbWUgaGF2ZSBkaWZmZXJlbnQgdXNlcyBhbmQgY2FuIGNoYW5nZSBhdCBkaWZmZXJlbnQgdGlt ZXMsIHNvIGJvdGggYXJlIG5lZWRlZC4NCg0KUmVnYXJkcywNCkpha29iLg0KDQpGcm9tOiBycmFz enVrQGdtYWlsLmNvbSA8cnJhc3p1a0BnbWFpbC5jb20+IE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBSb2JlcnQgUmFz enVrDQpTZW50OiBXZWRuZXNkYXksIEp1bHkgMTgsIDIwMTggODozNCBBTQ0KVG86IEpha29iIEhl aXR6IChqaGVpdHopIDxqaGVpdHpAY2lzY28uY29tPg0KQ2M6IEplZmZyZXkgSGFhcyA8amhhYXNA cGZyYy5vcmc+OyBpZHJAaWV0Zi5vcmcNClN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbSWRyXSBXRyBhZG9wdGlvbiBj 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18 Jul 2018 08:47:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 78B271E290; Wed, 18 Jul 2018 11:46:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 11:46:58 -0400 From: Jeffrey Haas To: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" Cc: "idr@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180718154658.GA10999@pfrc.org> References: <6ACB426F-D10D-43E2-BC12-2D41D0CCE88A@arrcus.com> <20401d8c-4591-0507-776f-a154bc968245@juniper.net> <006401d41d30$b3e0b1f0$1ba215d0$@ndzh.com> <009a01d41d31$d4c96b40$7e5c41c0$@ndzh.com> <20180716203857.GC14105@pfrc.org> <48f0a40f373247369ce9e86a79954211@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <48f0a40f373247369ce9e86a79954211@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 15:47:15 -0000 Jakob, On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 03:17:58PM +0000, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) wrote: > There may be two network operators that want to auto-discover their own networks. > All their routers speak BGP. > They may peer with each other, but do not want to auto-discover each other. > They may peer with a protocol other than BGP. > They may peer with BGP, but apply different routing policies. > Whatever the case, they will treat the peering neighbor differently to their own neighbors. > A TLV to signal a network name can be used to distinguish these BGP neighbor types. Ok. You're asking after both identity, and potentially some sort of device class, along with some name spacing. Reasonable things, although I think we have different ideas about the specifics right now. -- Jeff From nobody Thu Jul 19 02:58:57 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EB4F130F2A; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 02:58:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sIsAu_pCiqmT; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 02:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (50-245-122-97-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.245.122.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CBD4130DD4; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 02:58:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=31.133.154.14; From: "Susan Hares" To: Cc: References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 05:41:46 -0400 Message-ID: <001201d41f44$b65ef2a0$231cd7e0$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01D41F23.2F4D52A0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQGRTPZtbKn53OktwvULcZwhWaIQQKUb7Fxg Content-Language: en-us X-Antivirus: AVG (VPS 180718-6, 07/18/2018), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Not-Tested X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 09:58:55 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01D41F23.2F4D52A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This closes the 2 week adoption for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 - July 16). The WG chairs conclude on my original questions that: 1) There is WG interest to have an auto-discovery mechanism that will work for BGP peers in Data Centers 2) There is some WG interest having this work in other deployments. 3) There is no consensus on the mechanisms (BGP hellos or other mechanisms) Or requirements for the mechanisms. 4) There is WG consensus and AD Consensus that we should collaborate with LSVR. One mechanism for both would be good, but it needs to fit the requirements set by the WG. There is no consensus on adoption this draft. During today's IDR session (18:10-19:10), we will have a discussion on the requirements for the auto-discovery mechanisms. We will start by reviewing the LSVR requirement set. If our discussions today do not come to a clear conclusion, the chairs are willing to sponsor an interim on the topic. Susan Hares and John Scudder. From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares Sent: Monday, July 2, 2018 1:09 PM To: idr@ietf.org Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org Subject: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Greetings: This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 - July 16). https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/ The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response to this email. I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors to respond by July 7th. The WG should consider the following: 1) Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within Data Centers? 2) Does this mechanism work for other deployments? 3) If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc). 4) Does this interact with any of the LSVR work? I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through some of the WG LC for other drafts. We decided to wait until some of those discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call. Susan Hares ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01D41F23.2F4D52A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This closes the 2 week = adoption for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

(July 2 – July 16).

 

The WG chairs conclude on my original questions = that:

1)  = There is WG interest = to have an auto-discovery mechanism

that will work for BGP peers in Data = Centers

 

2)  = There is some WG =  interest having this work

in other deployments.

 

3)  = There is no consensus = on the mechanisms

(BGP hellos or other mechanisms) =

Or requirements for = the mechanisms.

 

4)  = There is WG consensus = and AD Consensus that we should

collaborate with LSVR. One mechanism for both would =

be good, but it needs = to fit the requirements set

by the WG.  

 

There is no consensus on adoption this draft. =

 

During today’s IDR session (18:10-19:10), we = will have a

discussion on the = requirements for the auto-discovery mechanisms.

We will start by reviewing the LSVR requirement = set.

 

If our discussions today do not come to a clear = conclusion,

the chairs are willing = to sponsor an interim on the topic.

 

Susan Hares and John Scudder. =

 

From:= = Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan = Hares
Sent: Monday, July 2, 2018 1:09 PM
To: = idr@ietf.org
Cc: = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org
Subject: [Idr] WG = adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

 

Greetings: =

 

This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 – July 16).  =

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscover= y/

 

The authors of this draft should send their IPR = statements in response to this email.  I hope the authors will = ihelp their vacationing co-authors to respond by July = 7th. 

 

The WG = should consider the following:

1)      = Does BGP need to have an = autodiscovery mechanism for peers within Data Centers?

2)      = Does this mechanism work = for other deployments?

 

3)      = If so, should be passed = in BGP Hello message? 

Or should it be a part of another protocol = (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc).

 

4)      = Does this interact with = any of the LSVR work?

 

I want to = thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through some of the = WG LC for other drafts.  We decided to wait until some of those = discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption = call.

 

 

Susan Hares =

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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BN3PR0501MB1459; H:BN3PR0501MB1507.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 1s3Q5Z6mAh7gqclbAyJprG6uwSmmANfbpoSKNPcdG8BxFN6rrkhAGoJUFNt4N3A9lYktnq//dTBTqkRHHEFOHCIJO+4ZrJHG/fe8tTe65YKXbNnXBnwyeiHgERyS03BmQkSAgmeaxV1slgMdkSa2wlXwbiUUVyvY2OZPWQDjRRthiRCJEaVfLqMiBjrokpdbcQAm+Ez2C2XeD0AmNhYHLWq23Qkx6iIFsIL5NM574y+K36FA68CCMQyfiFBg66r8XAmBICjvP1cv662/lImfDJPFI2DST7/IffICJx1jy8lsXWa/Ou5tK5mF1GQcD+xZfnx2/4w6ZFlTGu6gielocPXdN7gAs53jnZQ6Kvn3DMA= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <09368990FD9E8046AE4961EBEF628539@namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: eafc3de6-401c-47aa-9a71-08d5edad2adf X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Jul 2018 19:23:54.5027 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN3PR0501MB1459 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-07-19_07:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=846 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1806210000 definitions=main-1807190201 Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] Note-taking today (and tomorrow) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 19:24:02 -0000 Hi All, We have only one hour in today's session and a full agenda. We will plan to= start promptly and would like to make the fullest use of our time and NOT = sit around waiting for note-taking volunteers. If you are willing to take notes, please let us know! If you are willing to= participate in crowdsourced notes (I find this works very well when I'm th= e note-taker in other groups) here is the Etherpad link: http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-102-idr?useMonospaceFont=3Dtrue Similar will be true tomorrow. Jabber help also appreciated: xmpp:idr@jabber.ietf.org?join Thanks in advance, --John= From nobody Thu Jul 19 14:15:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A0161310F8 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 14:15:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1qD-nDtCnv97 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 14:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D95C130F76 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 14:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fgGGr-0005eg-5a; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 21:15:33 +0000 Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 17:15:33 -0400 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: John Scudder Cc: "idr@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <68069E4C-BB74-4241-9B84-112DBC43CA27@juniper.net> References: <68069E4C-BB74-4241-9B84-112DBC43CA27@juniper.net> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/25.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Note-taking today (and tomorrow) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 21:15:43 -0000 apologies; i am not volunnteering ffor scribe or jabber anywhere as i have the mac keyboard disease randy From nobody Thu Jul 19 14:16:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F28E8130F59 for ; 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Thu, 19 Jul 2018 14:16:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a4a:c896:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 14:16:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [31.133.151.78] In-Reply-To: References: <68069E4C-BB74-4241-9B84-112DBC43CA27@juniper.net> From: Job Snijders Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 21:16:36 +0000 Message-ID: To: Randy Bush Cc: John Scudder , "idr@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Note-taking today (and tomorrow) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 21:16:40 -0000 I can take notes, but not jabber. On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 9:15 PM, Randy Bush wrote: > apologies; i am not volunnteering ffor scribe or jabber anywhere as i > have the mac keyboard disease > > randy > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr From nobody Thu Jul 19 14:21:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2B34130EC8 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 14:21:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e_SxB7GqH49i for ; 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Thu, 19 Jul 2018 14:16:46 -0700 Received: from BN3PR0501MB1507.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.160.117.27) by BN3PR0501MB1284.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.160.183.150) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.973.14; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 21:16:42 +0000 Received: from BN3PR0501MB1507.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::6553:f7cd:ee7c:12b3]) by BN3PR0501MB1507.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::6553:f7cd:ee7c:12b3%3]) with mapi id 15.20.0973.016; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 21:16:41 +0000 From: John Scudder To: EXT - randy CC: "idr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Idr] Note-taking today (and tomorrow) Thread-Index: AQHUH5YISPV+JmOqak2+AZXB4hwXVqSXDBWAgAAAT4A= Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 21:16:41 +0000 Message-ID: <2621B39A-970C-4026-865B-1A302D68312A@juniper.net> References: <68069E4C-BB74-4241-9B84-112DBC43CA27@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.14] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; 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Actually we have a note-taker, thanks very much Gunter. (Although crowdsour= cing is always welcome from those who want to help, see previous Etherpad U= RL) --John > On Jul 19, 2018, at 5:15 PM, Randy Bush wrote: >=20 > apologies; i am not volunnteering ffor scribe or jabber anywhere as i > have the mac keyboard disease >=20 > randy From nobody Thu Jul 19 15:52:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 141B3130E42 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:52:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cdGoY8uJ4Ovd for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x529.google.com (mail-pg1-x529.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::529]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86C4E130DD2 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x529.google.com with SMTP id p23-v6so5027974pgv.13 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:52:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=IjtgvIGyob4rjR/aVhZThZ9FHoYsRbaEV2EbOX+qg1g=; b=mzPvnaxzt5R10eAPdi6bgtxvSsbFaSe+yLn4dvETKtj0OQnpWXQI4M6Z3ehYUizSX7 TnXdIYgXfOHmbbPjnAlEyf3zDY3jChsOFfyN5mlOztMVZFkHAmujy9ijyTrIglH47/bf vVDTSAgA5uM9S/EKsDW9ojDuGXu36Z8ZHc3pdUMnwBe5A3NR3M3Ev5UQHTd8O34EF5DH r+QLK/r+wHqivBwNiMl3tJmBKd9lt8i55Ntl7Msq+JGKT+GZTyT8lGxpIEagT+nHtSuz 8yiZaFQq/CYGtL5xLAztVeps/9PN7gxwvwIlYG3Q0/tw3CwbGpFIEstkZ6t0SI3xa+fc qefw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject :to:cc; bh=IjtgvIGyob4rjR/aVhZThZ9FHoYsRbaEV2EbOX+qg1g=; b=tM6w/HwwvUwPdsdnRTMfhvkvDQOvz+X5ICbGL/2+1hKul3SVktbFG0MbUIhcpEEkrR EuP7FIL/J5CcLTfj6b0TnFoXQtXjBIwEnnFPcbjatc90Xsio3be3scx7RveFmIvXtf6t w4oietRrAjAqhgVnJayswcrReAasZDwjQD6/b8JtFLXHQu7/CQsftRPRTlhGjGOBWWYG t4KfMIuv0TzautiRzCgQ0x3nO8cra7pozIWjDriFcK+D257SXdvY+pwaIzJGx/auCNQX SqMfLZ2WAz83nnsJlxFCvXI0if4ORRM/dZJQMw92Xg3q37udzW/qCxAW4+IZjEl9Bmy9 vxTA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlEOTXf5LnggeJsFME+2KBNnG3aUDAwzg5wN7wxHXnkvEqNsu4kl DE2ps0U6azSFXPvx7a0VXSqWqRxn3LC2Qq0lZ9xCh4Dy X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcDXiPiFcytv6UIBGIp4CHFnR8eO41C2WVGQnXFM3Ogdz9YLL+HfSNOyH4TIfQeACT01hWFwHpHeBciO4nQY4o= X-Received: by 2002:a65:498c:: with SMTP id r12-v6mr11953481pgs.112.1532040764970; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:52:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a17:90a:d396:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:52:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 00:52:44 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: _hJi36gFpSKB137PeaygiroC7Qw Message-ID: To: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" Cc: idr wg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000093dc3605716209bb" Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] Questions on your presentations ... X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 22:52:47 -0000 --00000000000093dc3605716209bb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jakob, 1. I noticed you are pushing in parallel variable length TLVs in BGP Hellos .. do you expect this to also take years to implement ? So you are saying it take too long to write code for variable length TLVs - I assume this does apply to BGP Hellos TLVs ... =E2=80=8B 2. Why not RTC also based on Standard and Large Communities ? =E2=80=8B 3. +1 to Jeff's & Keyur's comments 4. New additional RTC SAFI for 30 octets XXXL ext communities is ... insane - not only obvious but then you would need to get complex dealing with different/opposite filtering results from different RTCs SAFIs. Cheers, R. --00000000000093dc3605716209bb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Jakob,=C2=A0
1. I noticed you are pushing in parallel = variable length TLVs in BGP Hellos .. do you expect this to also take years= to implement ? So you are saying it take too long to write code for variab= le length TLVs - I assume this does apply to BGP Hellos TLVs ...=C2=A0=C2= =A0
=E2=80=8B
2. Why not RTC also based on Standard and Large = Communities ? =E2=80=8B

3. +1 to Jeff's & Keyu= r's comments

4. New additional RTC SAFI for 30 oct= ets XXXL ext communities is ... insane - not only obvious but then you woul= d need to get complex dealing with different/opposite filtering results fro= m different RTCs SAFIs.

Cheers,
R.
--00000000000093dc3605716209bb-- From nobody Thu Jul 19 16:11:39 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A8E0130DD2 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:11:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ePGRlQfiAloU for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83320130E46 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1D0AF1E3CE; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 19:11:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 19:11:19 -0400 From: Jeffrey Haas To: Robert Raszuk Cc: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" , idr wg Message-ID: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 23:11:37 -0000 On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 12:52:44AM +0200, Robert Raszuk wrote: > 4. New additional RTC SAFI for 30 octets XXXL ext communities is ... insane > - not only obvious but then you would need to get complex dealing with > different/opposite filtering results from different RTCs SAFIs. I would like to offer a very specific reductio ad absurdum: I propose that the next version of communities we do, if they must be fixed length, must be 253 octets of value and 255 bytes of total size. If we must do fixed, do it and be done for a long while. -- Jeff From nobody Thu Jul 19 16:20:44 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29192130E34 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:20:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zKwu0QigAcL5 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x52b.google.com (mail-pg1-x52b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 606CA130DD2 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52b.google.com with SMTP id n7-v6so5093967pgq.4 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:20:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=8Hp5vkZHNtZ7WBl+q5V6sOB3zVnrdKjs3l1q/dL9frY=; b=fKNm7J69SxqA0WLy0KjE6EbBFTXRxw9LodtmqBq5okbHe8kn5PqyW6E0cTGhEwJjoZ pRH6OzYCMz7kZXq1tlxnChUupxDQBoIkSnBruR5Styl92gkp95vIOln0tBdClP4ZiHwl eEsItPXeWELkG/Tek0Jpxzf4sxqF/Tb6RVw7bssvnft2Szj2ZSCgjzXVq6TfHg/QL0XM ji9j0t7ajfK54BdpX3PD+KXPQo9iCL5RmFG+iy0NzdkJ1/UMt4oRoqylti4RdEqnQjJK /GLKIN2Y4fLsUs2Khzf0gi7r5QnwfqoFRzr/DIBaQjRddO267jyUZZyUSItc7yikw2W7 wSmA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8Hp5vkZHNtZ7WBl+q5V6sOB3zVnrdKjs3l1q/dL9frY=; b=H5pcQRJ9Q2iFJkGruLCq2JjjtBGGcFQFOCiMGKAlBKilwP/94pZ3v92ezdlSC11ItJ l7Phm9vf0TjdjVcKeWIasPBLatA1khLBAIeEVY+UF8kRcNM4RynvAmz7/gPN5CMWNK35 V/l+LIgWf2kL0x/mOFavkWazGv3boTXMVs9m3V6pQ6/NCcCGi+rs+hsybPHigm2bbbzk WQZu3+zheaDOlIp+HGTv78/ngJ04rTzDmQDDLAsgkKA/wci3QXKHEVpsGXy1JTSCJeAb gPjVQDodumRbTAovAv8GTnhdFQWu+S7Q0gcKnZO8zDIprfJMh9gyP3afSlFox5iJkMAv XpnA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlG+M3nB4rjP77NpKvXnExCRBLXb8ShsAoqSiVpafChRs+ENeO4Y I1d6ovYzCKERQWGS9JUqKP47nbxe6h2EIVswZWI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpeHnMcRaNTWUrU2Jwoc0IbefbQSmCZK58t/90e5fh66BvKamzyPTza2cM2BkEsxh22NG+duRnqAOvIZkGX5nAw= X-Received: by 2002:a62:8d84:: with SMTP id p4-v6mr11588420pfk.251.1532042439838; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:20:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a17:90a:d396:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:20:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> References: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 01:20:39 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: TMCzqwEb64RmtIM9a2vPYAOMLfk Message-ID: To: Jeffrey Haas Cc: idr wg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000068500d0571626d60" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 23:20:42 -0000 --00000000000068500d0571626d60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > If we must do fixed I do not think we must do fixed. I see no reason to stick with fixed. Experience has proven that fixed does not work .. we see this clear in the proposals being submitted and even presented at IDR. Time to learn from past mistakes. Thx, Robert On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:11 AM, Jeffrey Haas wrote: > On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 12:52:44AM +0200, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > 4. New additional RTC SAFI for 30 octets XXXL ext communities is ... > insane > > - not only obvious but then you would need to get complex dealing with > > different/opposite filtering results from different RTCs SAFIs. > > I would like to offer a very specific reductio ad absurdum: > I propose that the next version of communities we do, if they must be fixed > length, must be 253 octets of value and 255 bytes of total size. > > If we must do fixed, do it and be done for a long while. > > -- Jeff > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > --00000000000068500d0571626d60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> If we must do fixed

I do not think = we must do fixed. I see no reason to stick with fixed.=C2=A0

Experience has proven that fixed doe= s not work .. we see this clear in the proposals being submitted and even p= resented at IDR. Time to learn from past mistakes.=C2=A0

Thx,
Robert
<= br>

On= Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:11 AM, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> = wrote:
On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 12:52:44AM= +0200, Robert Raszuk wrote:
> 4. New additional RTC SAFI for 30 octets XXXL ext communities is ... i= nsane
> - not only obvious but then you would need to get complex dealing with=
> different/opposite filtering results from different RTCs SAFIs.

I would like to offer a very specific reductio ad absurdum:
I propose that the next version of communities we do, if they must be fixed=
length, must be 253 octets of value and 255 bytes of total size.

If we must do fixed, do it and be done for a long while.

-- Jeff

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

--00000000000068500d0571626d60-- From nobody Thu Jul 19 16:34:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A491E130E43 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:34:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eug9JpbwvENq for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-x235.google.com (mail-pl0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3EAF130DFE for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-x235.google.com with SMTP id 6-v6so4323898plb.0 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:34:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=x9X68hP3pIYnRAu8jiVhlO7RAtasSFblclrsLLaLdJg=; b=TKo3YNU2jSYjHDsS163M3s6wOg8AVG29ozu7gstAtTnVSWqHMCuD0Redhid/TxOEIH U1T51PM6j9oEa3dFVBvAqWsINrNJY/rsM8BcmXSje6MTZNhJeRROtt8xWBkmh8VLYloq 5Y9e6hFSNxAsTDUPP48X3vit+YxK94W4QLzXMZTKx46bQeQ/eAqrnQ1M+3r9UZ7g09GH T40B/HxGHZbu/M7rEjJfOlrtz0g8WwGWdlQIEpMYfsxF7Gae5dgkrwzu952cJ/GOjATM noDRSaC1RTHhI9fDx9LkCA/amJl2dcBrvGl9iD90XYZxVZANyg2g4Hh9YoFCXvPhdtPZ /Pwg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject :to; bh=x9X68hP3pIYnRAu8jiVhlO7RAtasSFblclrsLLaLdJg=; b=dfAhmZkZZOj7XmrqqpyieYMJh8guRD0yQuI/ZxxEeEiyxHakQvoT5dKJc3Fljl7JnZ rIfovqMGJN+dmOOzRbRX8Y3SIeNoW0YCX6pqXFRscYSlIHtRyIPHPc3Msa/xtoWsiPON tBsDeAdbl6MdZT29iWSstxdmKv7UqdODyp7VzXV8pDhLy7tfK0XKFLq8Q+f/u6mXSHlm HwP/YCn1QutJi6JViBbtLWsGkr63TTnc6Vafj3MBRd5moobr5ZrD1k3q5EKJY7lPJ8qH KO0Xi+HLWmMEdlLDDgSHc/esmIuVuCyj5Bsin7lmtqsE+kczKi+r9id5ttEeANQASTnu JqnQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlFT00MOWbjIQUbzujCsPFSKNMlc9IL6RaYQKKfKR4huyuETfkJt +Yk3lnWyvV7tAtmOcNY4JZqVl7kYQkzhIwnk4frH69f3 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpebnzHq36qyuT1Bl8pYCxSCAAT5u/GwS/GGwfLBTfOozOSdGaWiuqvyvNuSJj5P3YtCNvtvHq7yK6ciWrlrsMc= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:1007:: with SMTP id b7-v6mr11779967pla.277.1532043281583; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:34:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a17:90a:d396:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:34:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 01:34:40 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: DdOyprcb7unUUUT9XKXjtzIQWO8 Message-ID: To: idr wg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009454ee0571629f02" Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] Automatic session provisioning .... X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 23:34:45 -0000 --0000000000009454ee0571629f02 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear WG, Actually I think Randy's show was quite right on the spot today ! There is a lot of junk around blowing out BGP to do a lot of stuff which it does not need to do. LSVR should IMHO propose a topo discovery for their own purpose and IDR should have nothing to do with it. Of course link state with flooding reduction can scale to much more then 10K nodes (**), but the point is valid that not everyone (especially the white box vendors + software running on those OEMs) will implement it - (personally I it would be awesome to see that happen soon - and there are few players of white box OEM control planes here capable of doing it quite well). But what is there for IDR .. well a very basic configuration automation for those MSDC-want to be - maybe still useful as not everyone will jump into LSVR or get other routing operating systems .. hence my very basic proposal in this space within IDR space. Kind regards, Robert. ** - ISIS without any flooding optimizations does scale to 3K nodes of WAN so potentially much more chatty then any DC space. And that is with few well known SPF and flooding optimizations (partial SPF, exp backoff etc ...) --0000000000009454ee0571629f02 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear WG,

Actually I think Randy's show was quite right on= the spot today !=C2=A0

There is a lot of junk around blowing out BGP to do a lot of stuff which = it does not need to do.=C2=A0

LSVR should IMHO propose a topo discovery for their own purpose an= d IDR should have nothing to do with it.=C2=A0

=
Of course link state with flooding reduction can s= cale to much more then 10K nodes (**), but the point is valid that not ever= yone (especially the white box vendors + software running on those OEMs) wi= ll implement it - (personally I it would be awesome to see that happen soon= - and there are few players of white box OEM control planes here capable o= f doing it quite well).

But what is there for IDR .. well a very basic configuration automation f= or those MSDC-want to be - maybe still useful as not everyone will jump int= o LSVR or get other routing operating systems .. hence my very basic propos= al in this space within IDR space.=C2=A0

=
Kind regards,
Robert.

**=C2=A0 -=C2=A0ISIS without any flooding opti= mizations does scale to 3K nodes of WAN so potentially much more chatty the= n any DC space. And that is with few well known SPF and flooding optimizati= ons (partial SPF, exp backoff etc ...)


--0000000000009454ee0571629f02-- From nobody Thu Jul 19 20:27:25 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20EFC1277D2 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 20:27:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.509 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.509 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J0hVLA0Ferj9 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 20:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18E68130DEB for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 20:27:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=13370; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1532057239; x=1533266839; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=SD0btbEjX5BnE7/AEW4ZeWQDu8GphBBpx2yKsjTBAJ4=; b=HrtxGYz9yAlX00yK0Y1mOCAypfhfZagIGmDu4aQkORzVvXEKfyJJOWeH sJBT5ptIvz0WZi/I2d8+3gk87c35jYXBqwSkbVRp8IPh0VoN7tAQtV6qe +GpU1Jx45eTAOV5p3N+vRtK2+aA/Jd/kX6f+odBjJBNDrj3wl/k7D0kUz s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AMAgBOVVFb/40NJK1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYJXdmN/KAqDdJQ0ggyIOYdzhRCBeguEbAIXgm4hNhYBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAgEBAm0ohTYBAQEEIwpMEAIBCBEEAQErAgICHxEdCAIEDgUIDIMNgRtMAxW?= =?us-ascii?q?qLYEuhxQNgzCJAoFXP4ERgxGCVoUmglUCh2+KB4dHKwkCiHODLoMEjXWLEIZ?= =?us-ascii?q?mAhEUgSQkAy6BUnAVgySQU2+KeIEaAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,377,1526342400"; d="scan'208,217";a="423217917" Received: from alln-core-8.cisco.com ([173.36.13.141]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 20 Jul 2018 03:27:19 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-012.cisco.com (xch-aln-012.cisco.com [173.36.7.22]) by alln-core-8.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6K3RJAl025031 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 20 Jul 2018 03:27:19 GMT Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com (173.36.7.24) by XCH-ALN-012.cisco.com (173.36.7.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 22:27:18 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) by XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 22:27:18 -0500 From: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" To: Robert Raszuk CC: idr wg Thread-Topic: Questions on your presentations ... 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Thread-Index: AQHUH7co+mrsl73k3Uy/PrxMkuCLEaSXdqtg Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 03:48:10 +0000 Message-ID: <3a8b0cff4cdf4968b950d5e43810602a@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> References: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.86.254.250] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3a8b0cff4cdf4968b950d5e43810602aXCHALN014ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.23, xch-aln-013.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-5.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) 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X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 03:53:43 -0000 --_000_ADAC260E566A46288F4CC7DE401A5821junipernet_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (speaking as an individual WG contributor) I think it is a big mistake to suggest that the reason flexcomms/wide comms= hasn't progressed is that it's variable-length. It's much more ambitious t= han any of the fixed-length stuff we have, that's a reason. It's recursive,= that might be a reason too. But just because it's variable-length? Not buy= ing it. $0.02, --John On Jul 19, 2018, at 11:48 PM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) > wrote: Not at all. Experience has shown that fixed works very well. Large community went from concept to RFC and code complete with all the rou= ting policy code in 2 years, because we could reuse the community code. Variable length communities started in 2002 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lange-flexible-bgp-communities-00 The code will have to be written from scratch. Regards, Jakob. From: Idr > On Behalf Of = Robert Raszuk Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 4:21 PM To: Jeffrey Haas > Cc: idr wg > Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your prese= ntations ...) > If we must do fixed I do not think we must do fixed. I see no reason to stick with fixed. Experience has proven that fixed does not work .. we see this clear in the = proposals being submitted and even presented at IDR. Time to learn from pas= t mistakes. Thx, Robert On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:11 AM, Jeffrey Haas > wrote: On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 12:52:44AM +0200, Robert Raszuk wrote: > 4. New additional RTC SAFI for 30 octets XXXL ext communities is ... insa= ne > - not only obvious but then you would need to get complex dealing with > different/opposite filtering results from different RTCs SAFIs. I would like to offer a very specific reductio ad absurdum: I propose that the next version of communities we do, if they must be fixed length, must be 253 octets of value and 255 bytes of total size. If we must do fixed, do it and be done for a long while. -- Jeff _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman= _listinfo_idr&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r= =3DhLt5iDJpw7ukqICc0hoT7A&m=3D2hIY6rLbAvAIj9fLY9vdCZMdoxjfktxXE0SPGa4SW9Y&s= =3DANHXDEVazzM11nlzarMDH82yonWcxAhaK1ABXs_A62w&e=3D --_000_ADAC260E566A46288F4CC7DE401A5821junipernet_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <9FCE205CD9C9664B81FD1566931DCCD9@namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (speaking as an individual WG contributor)

I think it is a big mistake to suggest that the reason flex= comms/wide comms hasn't progressed is that it's variable-length. It's much = more ambitious than any of the fixed-length stuff we have, that's a reason.= It's recursive, that might be a reason too. But just because it's variable-length? Not buying it.

$0.02,

--John

On Jul 19, 2018, at 11:48 PM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz=3D40ci= sco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Not at all. Experience has shown that fixed works ve= ry well.
Large community went from concept to RFC and code co= mplete with all the routing policy code in 2 years,
because we could reuse the community code.
Variable length communities started in 2002
https://tools.i= etf.org/html/draft-lange-flexible-bgp-communities-00
The code will have to be written from scratch.
 
Regards,
Jakob.
 
From:&= nbsp;Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org&g= t; On Behalf Of Robert Ras= zuk
Sent: T= hursday, July 19, 2018 4:21 PM
To: Jef= frey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
Cc: idr= wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentation= s ...)
 
=  
> If we must do fixed
=  
I do not think w= e must do fixed. I see no reason to stick with fixed. =
=  
Experience has p= roven that fixed does not work .. we see this clear in the proposals being = submitted and even presented at IDR. Time to learn from past mistakes. = ;
=  
Thx,
Robert
=  
 
On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:11 AM, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:
On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 12:52:44AM +0200, Robert Raszuk wrote:
> 4. New additional RTC SAFI for 30 octets XXXL ext communities is ... i= nsane
> - not only obvious but then you would need to get complex dealing with=
> different/opposite filtering results from different RTCs SAFIs.

I would like to offer a very specific reductio ad absurdum:
I propose that the next version of communities we do, if they must be fixed=
length, must be 253 octets of value and 255 bytes of total size.

If we must do fixed, do it and be done for a long while.

-- Jeff

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--_000_ADAC260E566A46288F4CC7DE401A5821junipernet_-- From nobody Thu Jul 19 21:04:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADCC0130E91 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 21:04:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -12.52 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.52 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vQ8XSo-fGE7W for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 21:04:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5C66130E7D for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 21:04:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=18135; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1532059495; x=1533269095; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=dC+Ty/RKWWHGjwZMu9So61hZKOl71iOd2yxIjSHWI0w=; b=Q7mQKDQoxRPFI6ZXozaqwrG4hlLgMpPjiFyJDSEnCsttUiGOaTT71yVS xJG6AZpCFo8loPPg8R2T4Q9kWdVKKn09leCd+DZR/tQY8QWiFZY2pTHXJ 4xcQHesejSQNKrDyrJskSi2fLLLIRqqN1jUKF27PaZ8/S14YHcZR53irV Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DJAABDXlFb/5ldJa1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYJXdmN/KAqLeIwwggyVPIF6CxgBCYRKAoMGITQYAQIBAQI?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQJtHAyFNgEBAQMBAQErQQsFCwIBCA4DBAEBAScHJwsUCQgCBA4FCAyDDYE?= =?us-ascii?q?bXAgPqz+KUIkCgVc/gRGDEYMZAQECAReBfAiFGAKRdodyCQKGDokXgg+LZoo?= =?us-ascii?q?/hzcCERSBJB04gVJwFTuCaQmBbC0ag0WFFIU+bwEBinaBGgEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,377,1526342400"; d="scan'208,217";a="426347780" Received: from rcdn-core-2.cisco.com ([173.37.93.153]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 20 Jul 2018 04:04:54 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-013.cisco.com (xch-aln-013.cisco.com [173.36.7.23]) by rcdn-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6K44skp017755 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 20 Jul 2018 04:04:54 GMT Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com (173.36.7.24) by XCH-ALN-013.cisco.com (173.36.7.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 23:04:54 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) by XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Thu, 19 Jul 2018 23:04:54 -0500 From: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" To: John Scudder CC: Robert Raszuk , Jeffrey Haas , idr wg Thread-Topic: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) Thread-Index: AQHUH7co+mrsl73k3Uy/PrxMkuCLEaSXdqtggABYI4D//605EA== Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 04:04:54 +0000 Message-ID: <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> References: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> <3a8b0cff4cdf4968b950d5e43810602a@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.86.254.250] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532XCHALN014ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.23, xch-aln-013.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 04:04:59 -0000 --_000_5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532XCHALN014ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The thing is I want to reuse the extended community code as much as possibl= e. The routing policy code and its associated configuration, show, xml and deb= ug commands is the bulk of it. The more you deviate, the harder it gets. Variable length is a big deviation. Regards, Jakob. From: John Scudder Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 8:53 PM To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) Cc: Robert Raszuk ; Jeffrey Haas ; idr w= g Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your prese= ntations ...) (speaking as an individual WG contributor) I think it is a big mistake to suggest that the reason flexcomms/wide comms= hasn't progressed is that it's variable-length. It's much more ambitious t= han any of the fixed-length stuff we have, that's a reason. It's recursive,= that might be a reason too. But just because it's variable-length? Not buy= ing it. $0.02, --John On Jul 19, 2018, at 11:48 PM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) > wrote: Not at all. Experience has shown that fixed works very well. Large community went from concept to RFC and code complete with all the rou= ting policy code in 2 years, because we could reuse the community code. Variable length communities started in 2002 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lange-flexible-bgp-communities-00 The code will have to be written from scratch. Regards, Jakob. From: Idr > On Behalf Of = Robert Raszuk Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 4:21 PM To: Jeffrey Haas > Cc: idr wg > Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your prese= ntations ...) > If we must do fixed I do not think we must do fixed. I see no reason to stick with fixed. Experience has proven that fixed does not work .. we see this clear in the = proposals being submitted and even presented at IDR. Time to learn from pas= t mistakes. Thx, Robert On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:11 AM, Jeffrey Haas > wrote: On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 12:52:44AM +0200, Robert Raszuk wrote: > 4. New additional RTC SAFI for 30 octets XXXL ext communities is ... insa= ne > - not only obvious but then you would need to get complex dealing with > different/opposite filtering results from different RTCs SAFIs. I would like to offer a very specific reductio ad absurdum: I propose that the next version of communities we do, if they must be fixed length, must be 253 octets of value and 255 bytes of total size. If we must do fixed, do it and be done for a long while. -- Jeff _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman= _listinfo_idr&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r= =3DhLt5iDJpw7ukqICc0hoT7A&m=3D2hIY6rLbAvAIj9fLY9vdCZMdoxjfktxXE0SPGa4SW9Y&s= =3DANHXDEVazzM11nlzarMDH82yonWcxAhaK1ABXs_A62w&e=3D --_000_5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532XCHALN014ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The thing is I want to reuse the extended co= mmunity code as much as possible.

The routing policy code and its associated c= onfiguration, show, xml and debug commands is the bulk of it.

The more you deviate, the harder it gets.

Variable length is a big deviation.

 

Regards,

Jakob.

 

From: John Scudder <jgs@juniper.n= et>
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 8:53 PM
To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com>
Cc: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>; Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@= pfrc.org>; idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on you= r presentations ...)

 

(speaking as an individual WG contributor)

 

I think it is a big mistake to suggest that the reas= on flexcomms/wide comms hasn't progressed is that it's variable-length. It'= s much more ambitious than any of the fixed-length stuff we have, that's a = reason. It's recursive, that might be a reason too. But just because it's variable-length? Not buying it.

 

$0.02,

 

--John

 

On Jul 19, 2018, at 11:48 PM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) &= lt;jheitz=3D40cisco.= com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

 

Not at all. Experience has shown that fixed = works very well.

Large community went from concept to RFC and= code complete with all the routing policy code in 2 years,

because we could reuse the community code.

Variable length communities started in 2002<= /span>

The code will have to be written from scratc= h.

 

Regards,

Jakob.

 

From: Idr <i= dr-bounces@ietf.org>&nb= sp;On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
Sent: Thursday, Ju= ly 19, 2018 4:21 PM
To: Jeffrey Haas &= lt;jhaas@pfr= c.org>
Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr]= Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...)

 

 

> If we must do fixed<= /o:p>

 

I do not think we must do fixed. I see no reason to stick with fixed.&= nbsp;

 

Experience has proven that fixed does not work .. we see this clear in= the proposals being submitted and even presented at IDR. Time to learn fro= m past mistakes. 

 

Thx,
Robert

 

 

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:11 AM, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 12:52:44AM +0200, Robert= Raszuk wrote:
> 4. New additional RTC SAFI for 30 octets XXXL ext communities is ... i= nsane
> - not only obvious but then you would need to get complex dealing with=
> different/opposite filtering results from different RTCs SAFIs.

I would like to offer a very specific reductio ad absurdum:
I propose that the next version of communities we do, if they must be fixed=
length, must be 253 octets of value and 255 bytes of total size.

If we must do fixed, do it and be done for a long while.

-- Jeff

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf= .org/mailman/listinfo/idr

 

_______________________________________________ Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?= u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_idr&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkY= uh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DhLt5iDJpw7ukqICc0hoT7A&= m=3D2hIY6rLbAvAIj9fLY9vdCZMdoxjfktxXE0SPGa4SW9Y&s=3DANHXDEVazzM11nlzarM= DH82yonWcxAhaK1ABXs_A62w&e=3D

 

--_000_5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532XCHALN014ciscocom_-- From nobody Fri Jul 20 01:32:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CB0B130E18 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 01:32:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.59 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.59 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I4yZ-GElW9y5 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 01:32:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x533.google.com (mail-pg1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5CE07131074 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 01:32:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x533.google.com with SMTP id k3-v6so6252072pgq.5 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 01:32:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=16IHelkGNkTy8hYWpZuyg1SACpiGQ5xNWKVn6qw9mko=; b=cf9sfQYbT2XYpbqo7Fk1eECXTvFWnLR2+H/Wqbyxj+WH2LPrDW68IgQ+9I6ZLQ384F LYoGKpga6w6aFAjeKEfHxZ+PbxG8GRoz6+37ANqa6K7nfflWxCZ3qCUB4vUQrh/RTZdl AoEcUxLxFSdlx9oZNY2B3U11srKq5wWS5QUBEZ+I2W1i119cBwdsvwNEypg6Jg6SSS1X BU3ynHMOcrEVNB5C/hKUCrgJ1OkE4/BbkLfgOHhJgwEgegD/Bnugw+p+sNjZD3gvTVXt d8fFNGmhfMusoy+cnxIE/IfSkPjrc6UMTVkqNDc+Ur7PThXzjTSR4Nar1yt7R6uxr8R8 c12A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=16IHelkGNkTy8hYWpZuyg1SACpiGQ5xNWKVn6qw9mko=; b=eB8ITgMzyCykuTH0sAA0ByRvyUfeQnmOWdp6ABTRlDgrtEhzEasWsRobxxVvsTbilE pj1YZXK5WTdnFDP/BOOOyV/Q/zmwCFogc64CSeXCnhT6jbvMA7KpcOZntYBVBKP5daZX 7dY2D+naaEhGYl5A5FUCVpkx6wIalie8vHpU8ve/2FSjJaIXMYdWbxIqJ2owccBYzHA1 ocqnZvaj4YgS6OFr0BEV+MYjcBmtPQstRURk7ecxVUn1XWk09cFQ+rqzN4G5xXdkQVh1 VLF1cqgMLcIaMZWdZkeyi3eL9R+GEK6ITxGO2+srDAgs2//iqShxjo3bzi+kRLIK7VL+ Pp/w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlHaCLdgbLN5BuPTy+UkBf8IJS8SbBUqI1ejbyw50oix/Lpdsin2 +GkI9UPw8enFib4s/+TpqfI8brKwc9Xk3JLK8eE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpdQBMgiz9vXxHHIMSFIebAECzz7WC4Qit+KN6XXxnU2B0HRIbxbtFvgGkGnoI108U72GvFKuty0hynt1s6azSY= X-Received: by 2002:a65:4107:: with SMTP id w7-v6mr1133330pgp.302.1532075523768; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 01:32:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a17:90a:d396:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 01:32:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> <3a8b0cff4cdf4968b950d5e43810602a@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:32:03 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: _o1-SLVemMbS07YUMumhmzL69ig Message-ID: To: John Scudder Cc: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" , Jeffrey Haas , idr wg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005d082b05716a21fb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 08:32:07 -0000 --0000000000005d082b05716a21fb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi John, > It's recursive, that might be a reason too. Where did you get such impression from ? Wide communities (or registered wide communities specs) are not recursive and no nesting or inheritance was ever the plan at the community level at least as far as my own intentions were/are. If there is some text in the current draft which makes you think so let's edit it asap. Many thx, Robert. On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 5:53 AM, John Scudder wrote: > (speaking as an individual WG contributor) > > I think it is a big mistake to suggest that the reason flexcomms/wide > comms hasn't progressed is that it's variable-length. It's much more > ambitious than any of the fixed-length stuff we have, that's a reason. It= 's > recursive, that might be a reason too. But just because it's > variable-length? Not buying it. > > $0.02, > > --John > > On Jul 19, 2018, at 11:48 PM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) < > jheitz=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Not at all. Experience has shown that fixed works very well. > Large community went from concept to RFC and code complete with all the > routing policy code in 2 years, > because we could reuse the community code. > Variable length communities started in 2002 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lange-flexible-bgp-communities-00 > > The code will have to be written from scratch. > > Regards, > Jakob. > > *From:* Idr *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk > *Sent:* Thursday, July 19, 2018 4:21 PM > *To:* Jeffrey Haas > *Cc:* idr wg > *Subject:* Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your > presentations ...) > > > > If we must do fixed > > I do not think we must do fixed. I see no reason to stick with fixed. > > Experience has proven that fixed does not work .. we see this clear in th= e > proposals being submitted and even presented at IDR. Time to learn from > past mistakes. > > Thx, > Robert > > > On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:11 AM, Jeffrey Haas wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 12:52:44AM +0200, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > 4. New additional RTC SAFI for 30 octets XXXL ext communities is ... > insane > > - not only obvious but then you would need to get complex dealing with > > different/opposite filtering results from different RTCs SAFIs. > > I would like to offer a very specific reductio ad absurdum: > I propose that the next version of communities we do, if they must be fix= ed > length, must be 253 octets of value and 255 bytes of total size. > > If we must do fixed, do it and be done for a long while. > > -- Jeff > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www. > ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_idr&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK- > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DhLt5iDJpw7ukqICc0hoT7A&m=3D2hIY6rLbAvAIj9fLY9vdCZMdox= jfkt > xXE0SPGa4SW9Y&s=3DANHXDEVazzM11nlzarMDH82yonWcxAhaK1ABXs_A62w&e=3D > > > --0000000000005d082b05716a21fb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = --Apple-Mail-64736806-F413-483B-BF8B-8A5D736B0ED3-- From nobody Fri Jul 20 07:12:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C79B41311B7 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 07:12:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.936 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.936 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t58UDPnVMunl for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 07:12:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (50-245-122-97-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.245.122.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 912FA130E17 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 07:12:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=31.133.145.18; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Jakob Heitz \(jheitz\)'" , "'John Scudder'" Cc: "'idr wg'" , "'Robert Raszuk'" References: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> <3a8b0cff4cdf4968b950d5e43810602a@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <00ac01d42013$f5d7b910$e1872b30$@ndzh.com> <9e8263dc30654287a0875afea50349bb@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <9e8263dc30654287a0875afea50349bb@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:12:15 -0400 Message-ID: <003101d42033$a9f84cb0$fde8e610$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0032_01D42012.22E91DB0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQIo2/Wg+a5thni6H2NWNaUnCtok6AHfg0xWAnoDlNoB2HRBOwI7tV5mAc6h9wgC6pj28wKJP+YUo3EoIvA= Content-Language: en-us X-Antivirus: AVG (VPS 180720-0, 07/20/2018), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Not-Tested X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:12:49 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01D42012.22E91DB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jakob: My topic was not the auto-discovery issue or LSVR, but the amount of BGP-LS TLVs versus concern over 1 TLV header. I was simply noting the vastly different level of concern over space usage. BGP-LS was proposed for today's world. LSVR is different than basic BGP-LS. IETF standardization will require management information for LSVR. Please discuss your concerns on LSVR with the LSVR chairs or a routing AD. Please continue to discuss your concerns about growing "information" on IDR proposals - including last calls on the BGP-LS TLV or SR BGP-LS as part of the review process. This input is always welcomed. Susan Hares From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jakob Heitz (jheitz) Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 9:50 AM To: Susan Hares; 'John Scudder' Cc: 'idr wg'; 'Robert Raszuk' Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) There's also those that write the code and those that don't. LSVR is going to be a major multi-man-year project. It's more than "just another address family". There is a ton of issues that OSPF and ISIS handle differently. LSVR will handle them differently again and will have more issues to handle differently. The auto-discovery issue is just the start. Then, implementation is not just protocol definition. There's config, oper data, Yang, Test automation and the list goes on A brand new protocol like LSVR does not compare with an increment to extended community code. Variable length communities requires a rewrite. My proposal is a major reuse of existing code. Much easier. Regards, Jakob. From: Susan Hares Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 3:25 AM To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) ; 'John Scudder' Cc: 'idr wg' ; 'Robert Raszuk' Subject: RE: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) Jakob: Two groups of people use BGP. The BGP-LS people who feel adding TLVs and TLVs of information is acceptable.. You claim 1 TLVs is "too much" so that we must spin multiple sizes of communities. Hmm. Cheerily, Sue From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jakob Heitz (jheitz) Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 12:05 AM To: John Scudder Cc: idr wg; Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ....) The thing is I want to reuse the extended community code as much as possible. The routing policy code and its associated configuration, show, xml and debug commands is the bulk of it. The more you deviate, the harder it gets. Variable length is a big deviation. Regards, Jakob. From: John Scudder Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 8:53 PM To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) Cc: Robert Raszuk ; Jeffrey Haas ; idr wg Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ....) (speaking as an individual WG contributor) I think it is a big mistake to suggest that the reason flexcomms/wide comms hasn't progressed is that it's variable-length. It's much more ambitious than any of the fixed-length stuff we have, that's a reason. It's recursive, that might be a reason too. But just because it's variable-length? Not buying it. $0.02, --John On Jul 19, 2018, at 11:48 PM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) wrote: Not at all. Experience has shown that fixed works very well. Large community went from concept to RFC and code complete with all the routing policy code in 2 years, because we could reuse the community code. Variable length communities started in 2002 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lange-flexible-bgp-communities-00 The code will have to be written from scratch. Regards, Jakob. From: Idr < idr-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 4:21 PM To: Jeffrey Haas < jhaas@pfrc.org> Cc: idr wg < idr@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ....) > If we must do fixed I do not think we must do fixed. I see no reason to stick with fixed. Experience has proven that fixed does not work .. we see this clear in the proposals being submitted and even presented at IDR. Time to learn from past mistakes. Thx, Robert On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:11 AM, Jeffrey Haas < jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote: On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 12:52:44AM +0200, Robert Raszuk wrote: > 4. New additional RTC SAFI for 30 octets XXXL ext communities is ... insane > - not only obvious but then you would need to get complex dealing with > different/opposite filtering results from different RTCs SAFIs. I would like to offer a very specific reductio ad absurdum: I propose that the next version of communities we do, if they must be fixed length, must be 253 octets of value and 255 bytes of total size. If we must do fixed, do it and be done for a long while. -- Jeff _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf...org/mailman/listinfo/idr _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_li stinfo_idr&d=DwICAg&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=hLt5iDJp w7ukqICc0hoT7A&m=2hIY6rLbAvAIj9fLY9vdCZMdoxjfktxXE0SPGa4SW9Y&s=ANHXDEVazzM11 nlzarMDH82yonWcxAhaK1ABXs_A62w&e= ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01D42012.22E91DB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jakob:

<individual hat on>

My topic was not the auto-discovery issue or LSVR, but the =

amount of BGP-LS TLVs versus concern over 1 TLV header. =  

I was simply noting the vastly different level of =

concern over space usage.

<individual hat off>

 

<chair hat on>

BGP-LS was proposed for today’s world. =  

 

LSVR is different than basic BGP-LS.

IETF standardization will require management

information for LSVR.  Please discuss your =

concerns on LSVR with the LSVR chairs or a routing AD. =  

 

Please continue to discuss your concerns about growing = “information” on

IDR proposals – including last calls on the BGP-LS TLV or SR = BGP-LS

as part of the review process.  This input is always welcomed. =

<chair hat off>

 

Susan Hares

 

From:= = Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jakob Heitz = (jheitz)
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 9:50 AM
To: = Susan Hares; 'John Scudder'
Cc: 'idr wg'; 'Robert = Raszuk'
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: = Questions on your presentations ...)

 

There's also those that write the code and those = that don't.

LSVR = is going to be a major multi-man-year project. It's more than "just = another address family".

There is a ton of issues that OSPF and ISIS handle = differently.

LSVR = will handle them differently again and will have more issues to handle = differently.

The = auto-discovery issue is just the start.

Then, implementation is not just protocol = definition.

There's config, oper data, Yang, Test automation and = the list goes on

 

A brand new protocol like LSVR does not compare with = an increment to extended community code.

Variable length communities requires a = rewrite.

My = proposal is a major reuse of existing code. Much = easier.

 

Regards,

Jakob.

 

From: Susan = Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 = 3:25 AM
To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com>; = 'John Scudder' <jgs@juniper.net>
Cc: 'idr wg' = <idr@ietf.org>; 'Robert Raszuk' = <robert@raszuk..net>
Subject: RE: [Idr] Fixed sized = communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations = ...)

 

Jakob:

<individual contributor hat on>

 

Two groups of people use BGP.  The BGP-LS people who feel adding = TLVs and TLVs of information is acceptable.. =  

You claim 1 TLVs is “too much” so that we must spin = multiple sizes of communities.   =  

Hmm.

 

<individual contributor hat still on>

 

Cheerily, Sue

 

From:= = Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of Jakob Heitz (jheitz)
Sent: Friday, July = 20, 2018 12:05 AM
To: John Scudder
Cc: idr wg; = Robert Raszuk
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was = Re: Questions on your presentations = ....)

 

The = thing is I want to reuse the extended community code as much as = possible.

The = routing policy code and its associated configuration, show, xml and = debug commands is the bulk of it.

The more you deviate, the harder it = gets.

Variable length is a big = deviation.

 

Regards,

Jakob.

 

From: John = Scudder <jgs@juniper.net> =
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 8:53 PM
To: Jakob = Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com>
Cc: = Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>; Jeffrey = Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>; idr = wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: = [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations = ....)

 

(speaking as = an individual WG contributor)

 

I = think it is a big mistake to suggest that the reason flexcomms/wide = comms hasn't progressed is that it's variable-length. It's much more = ambitious than any of the fixed-length stuff we have, that's a reason. = It's recursive, that might be a reason too. But just because it's = variable-length? Not buying it.

 

$0.02,

 

--John

 

On Jul 19, 2018, at 11:48 PM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) = <jheitz=3D40cisco.com@= dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

 

Not at all. Experience has shown that fixed works = very well.

Large = community went from concept to RFC and code complete with all the = routing policy code in 2 years,

because we could reuse the community = code.

Variable length communities started in = 2002

The code will have to be written from = scratch.

 

Regards,

Jakob.

 

From: Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Robert = Raszuk
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 4:21 = PM
To: Jeffrey = Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized = communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations = ....)

 

 

> If we must do = fixed

 

I do not think we must do = fixed. I see no reason to stick with = fixed. 

 

Experience has proven that = fixed does not work .. we see this clear in the proposals being = submitted and even presented at IDR. Time to learn from past = mistakes. 

 

Thx,
Robert

 

 

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:11 AM, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> = wrote:

On Fri, Jul 20, = 2018 at 12:52:44AM +0200, Robert Raszuk wrote:
> 4. New additional = RTC SAFI for 30 octets XXXL ext communities is ... insane
> - not = only obvious but then you would need to get complex dealing with
> = different/opposite filtering results from different RTCs SAFIs.

I = would like to offer a very specific reductio ad absurdum:
I propose = that the next version of communities we do, if they must be = fixed
length, must be 253 octets of value and 255 bytes of total = size.

If we must do fixed, do it and be done for a long = while.

-- = Jeff

_______________________________________________
Idr = mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf...org/mailman/listinfo/idr=

 

__________= _____________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_ma= ilman_listinfo_idr&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb= 3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DhLt5iDJpw7ukqICc0hoT7A&m=3D2hIY6rLbAvAIj9fLY9vdC= ZMdoxjfktxXE0SPGa4SW9Y&s=3DANHXDEVazzM11nlzarMDH82yonWcxAhaK1ABXs_A62= w&e=3D

 

------=_NextPart_000_0032_01D42012.22E91DB0-- From nobody Fri Jul 20 07:16:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E82F131196 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 07:15:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.609 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.609 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d_DW6xc7mORr for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 07:15:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orange.com (mta239.mail.business.static.orange.com [80.12.66.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 603EE1311A0 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 07:15:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar07.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.9]) by opfedar24.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 41XCbQ0Vf5z5vv4; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 16:15:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.60]) by opfedar07.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 41XCbP6C42z5vMv; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 16:15:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e92a:c932:907e:8f06]) by OPEXCLILM7F.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::c1d7:e278:e357:11ad%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 16:15:45 +0200 From: To: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" CC: idr wg , Robert Raszuk , John Scudder Thread-Topic: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) Thread-Index: AQHUH7XjpTfh1V6o1kex8o/TustoZ6SXDUKAgABKvwCAAAF3gIAAAzUAgADEbPA= Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:15:45 +0000 Message-ID: <7422_1532096146_5B51EE91_7422_187_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A47AF91DE@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> <3a8b0cff4cdf4968b950d5e43810602a@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A47AF91DEOPEXCLILM21corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:16:04 -0000 --_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A47AF91DEOPEXCLILM21corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1) I can see that from an implementer standpoint, in the short term, implem= enting one fixed length community is easier than a variable length one. But the bigger picture is the long term work for the whole community. Hence the point is to compare, in the long run, one variable length communi= ty format to N fixed length community formats. And evaluate the costs of sp= ecifying, implementing, testing, deploying, debugging, maintaining, operati= ng (N sets of BGP policies) It's clear that for N=3D255, one variable community format is better. I can= 't really imagine the nightmare with N=3D20. Currently we have N=3D3, and two more propositions on the way. So this prop= osition is N=3D5 in the very short term. Finally, IMO, the argument "I'm just asking for one more, it's urgent" has = been taken by the BGP large community attribute. Now we need to look at the= big long term picture. 2) Even for your own use case, I would argue that a variable length would b= e a better fit. >From the abstract: " Auto-derived identifiers are used by applications to enable zero configuration features. Such identifiers are often a combination of primitive identifiers and are thus longer. " I think the sentence is missing "and variable in length" Thanks, Regards, --Bruno From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jakob Heitz (jheitz) Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 12:05 AM To: John Scudder Cc: idr wg; Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your prese= ntations ...) The thing is I want to reuse the extended community code as much as possibl= e. The routing policy code and its associated configuration, show, xml and deb= ug commands is the bulk of it. The more you deviate, the harder it gets. Variable length is a big deviation. Regards, Jakob. From: John Scudder Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 8:53 PM To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) Cc: Robert Raszuk ; Jeffrey Haas ; idr w= g Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your prese= ntations ...) (speaking as an individual WG contributor) I think it is a big mistake to suggest that the reason flexcomms/wide comms= hasn't progressed is that it's variable-length. It's much more ambitious t= han any of the fixed-length stuff we have, that's a reason. It's recursive,= that might be a reason too. But just because it's variable-length? Not buy= ing it. $0.02, --John On Jul 19, 2018, at 11:48 PM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) > wrote: Not at all. Experience has shown that fixed works very well. Large community went from concept to RFC and code complete with all the rou= ting policy code in 2 years, because we could reuse the community code. Variable length communities started in 2002 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lange-flexible-bgp-communities-00 The code will have to be written from scratch. Regards, Jakob. From: Idr > On Behalf Of = Robert Raszuk Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 4:21 PM To: Jeffrey Haas > Cc: idr wg > Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your prese= ntations ...) > If we must do fixed I do not think we must do fixed. I see no reason to stick with fixed. Experience has proven that fixed does not work .. we see this clear in the = proposals being submitted and even presented at IDR. Time to learn from pas= t mistakes. Thx, Robert On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:11 AM, Jeffrey Haas > wrote: On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 12:52:44AM +0200, Robert Raszuk wrote: > 4. New additional RTC SAFI for 30 octets XXXL ext communities is ... insa= ne > - not only obvious but then you would need to get complex dealing with > different/opposite filtering results from different RTCs SAFIs. I would like to offer a very specific reductio ad absurdum: I propose that the next version of communities we do, if they must be fixed length, must be 253 octets of value and 255 bytes of total size. If we must do fixed, do it and be done for a long while. -- Jeff _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf..org/mailman/listinfo/idr _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman= _listinfo_idr&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r= =3DhLt5iDJpw7ukqICc0hoT7A&m=3D2hIY6rLbAvAIj9fLY9vdCZMdoxjfktxXE0SPGa4SW9Y&s= =3DANHXDEVazzM11nlzarMDH82yonWcxAhaK1ABXs_A62w&e=3D ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A47AF91DEOPEXCLILM21corp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

1) I can see t= hat from an implementer standpoint, in the short term, implementing one fix= ed length community is easier than a variable length one.=

 

But the bigger= picture is the long term work for the whole community.

 

Hence the poin= t is to compare, in the long run, one variable length community format to N= fixed length community formats. And evaluate the costs of specifying, implementing, testing, deploying, debugging, maintaining, oper= ating (N sets of BGP policies)

It’s cle= ar that for N=3D255, one variable community format is better. I can’t= really imagine the nightmare with N=3D20.

Currently we h= ave N=3D3, and two more propositions on the way. So this proposition is N= =3D5 in the very short term.

 

Finally, IMO, = the argument “I’m just asking for one more, it’s urgent&#= 8221; has been taken by the BGP large community attribute. Now we need to l= ook at the big long term picture.

 

 

2) Even for yo= ur own use case, I would argue that a variable length would be a better fit= .

From the abstr= act:

“   Auto-= derived identifiers are used by applications to enable zero

   configuratio= n features.  Such identifiers are often a combination of

   primitive id= entifiers and are thus longer. “

 

I think the se= ntence is missing “and variable in length”

 

Thanks,

Regards,<= /o:p>

--Bruno

 

 

From: Idr [mai= lto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jakob Heitz (jheitz)
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 12:05 AM
To: John Scudder
Cc: idr wg; Robert Raszuk
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on you= r presentations ...)

 

The thing i= s I want to reuse the extended community code as much as possible.

The routing= policy code and its associated configuration, show, xml and debug commands= is the bulk of it.

The more yo= u deviate, the harder it gets.

Variable le= ngth is a big deviation.

 =

Regards,

Jakob.=

 =

From: John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 8:53 PM
To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com>
Cc: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>; Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@= pfrc.org>; idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on you= r presentations ...)

 

(speaking as an individual WG c= ontributor)

 

I think it is a big mistake to = suggest that the reason flexcomms/wide comms hasn't progressed is that it's= variable-length. It's much more ambitious than any of the fixed-length stu= ff we have, that's a reason. It's recursive, that might be a reason too. But just because it's variable-length? Not buy= ing it.

 

$0.02,

 

--John

 

On Jul 19, 2018, at 11:48 PM, J= akob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

 

Not at all.= Experience has shown that fixed works very well.

Large commu= nity went from concept to RFC and code complete with all the routing policy= code in 2 years,

because we = could reuse the community code.

Variable le= ngth communities started in 2002

The code wi= ll have to be written from scratch.<= /span>

 

Regards,

Jakob.

 

From: <= /span>Idr <i= dr-bounces@ietf.org>&nb= sp;On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
Sent: Thursday, Ju= ly 19, 2018 4:21 PM
To: Jeffrey Haas &= lt;jhaas@pfr= c.org>
Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr]= Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...)

 

 

> If we= must do fixed

 

I do not think we must do fixed. I see no r= eason to stick with fixed. 

 

Experience has proven that fixed does not w= ork .. we see this clear in the proposals being submitted and even presente= d at IDR. Time to learn from past mistakes. 

 

Thx,
Robert

 

 

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:11 AM= , Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 12:52:4= 4AM +0200, Robert Raszuk wrote:
> 4. New additional RTC SAFI for 30 octets XXXL ext communities is ... i= nsane
> - not only obvious but then you would need to get complex dealing with=
> different/opposite filtering results from different RTCs SAFIs.

I would like to offer a very specific reductio ad absurdum:
I propose that the next version of communities we do, if they must be fixed=
length, must be 253 octets of value and 255 bytes of total size.

If we must do fixed, do it and be done for a long while.

-- Jeff

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf= ..org/mailman/listinfo/idr

 

_______________________= ________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https:= //urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listi= nfo_idr&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&= amp;r=3DhLt5iDJpw7ukqICc0hoT7A&m=3D2hIY6rLbAvAIj9fLY9vdCZMdoxjfktxXE0SP= Ga4SW9Y&s=3DANHXDEVazzM11nlzarMDH82yonWcxAhaK1ABXs_A62w&e=3D=

 

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--_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A47AF91DEOPEXCLILM21corp_-- From nobody Fri Jul 20 07:29:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1F82130E2D; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 07:29:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.947 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.947 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MQFraESadnVs; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 07:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (50-245-122-97-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.245.122.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58142130E0F; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 07:29:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=31.133.145.18; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Gaurav Dawra'" , =?utf-8?B?JyLlvpDlsI/omY4o5LmJ5YWIKSIn?= Cc: "'idr'" , "'draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery'" , "'Idr'" References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <001201d41f44$b65ef2a0$231cd7e0$@ndzh.com> <001801d4201b$50989610$f1c9c230$@ndzh.com> <374fc1c8-27b4-44e0-b0e9-a40cab5584ad.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:12:51 -0400 Message-ID: <003e01d42033$bf8f0870$3ead1950$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003F_01D42012.38830DC0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQGRTPZtbKn53OktwvULcZwhWaIQQAGfEnV1AcaflJMBY0uulAJqq3UbAb6zmLyk1jij8A== Content-Language: en-us X-Antivirus: AVG (VPS 180720-0, 07/20/2018), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Not-Tested X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:29:20 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01D42012.38830DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gaurav: =20 We need input on requirements rather than solutions at this time. At = this point, we are not considering any solutions until we define the = requirements. Please help us define the requirements.=20 =20 Susan Hares=20 =20 From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Gaurav Dawra Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 10:03 AM To: "=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88)" Cc: idr; draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery; Idr; Susan Hares Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery =20 Hi Sue, =20 As I have shared earlier during adoption call. I have specific concerns = on this document which we have shared with the authors on thread and = offline. There are no authors currently from LinkedIn. =20 We will continue to provide input once those concerns have been = addressed. =20 Cheers, =20 Gaurav Sent from my iPhone On Jul 20, 2018, at 7:49 AM, = =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) = wrote: Hi Sue, =20 Understood, I will.=20 =20 By the way, some authors of this draft are exactly from MSDC operators = including Alibaba, Tencent and LinkedIn. =20 Best regards, Xiaohu =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------ From:Susan Hares Send = Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8820=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E4=BA=94) = 19:18 To:=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) = ; Idr ; idr = Cc:draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery = Subject:RE: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery =20 Xiaohu: =20 Our next step is to gather requirements for the IDR neighbor discovery = from the WG. We would especially be interested in feedback on = requirements from operators of data centers. If you know of an = operators of medium data centers who could send requirements to the IDR = chairs or the IDR list, it would be helpful. =20 Cheerily, Susan Hares=20 =20 From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ???(??) Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 7:12 AM To: Idr; idr Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery =20 =20 Hi Sue, =20 Thanks for launching the WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery. =20 Hi all, =20 There has been one implementation developed by a switch vendor. = Furthermore at least two additional implementations from other vendors = are under construction. If any of you have any concrete and technical = concerns on this mechanism, please feel free to tell us and we would = like to verify your concerns on the implementation and then give you = feedbacks. =20 Best regards, Xiaohu ------------------------------------------------------------------ From:Susan Hares Send = Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8819=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B) = 17:59 To:idr Cc:draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery = Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery =20 This closes the 2 week adoption for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16).=20 =20 The WG chairs conclude on my original questions that:=20 1) There is WG interest to have an auto-discovery mechanism=20 that will work for BGP peers in Data Centers =20 2) There is some WG interest having this work in other deployments.=20 =20 3) There is no consensus on the mechanisms=20 (BGP hellos or other mechanisms)=20 Or requirements for the mechanisms.=20 =20 4) There is WG consensus and AD Consensus that we should=20 collaborate with LSVR. One mechanism for both would=20 be good, but it needs to fit the requirements set by the WG. =20 =20 There is no consensus on adoption this draft.=20 =20 During today=E2=80=99s IDR session (18:10-19:10), we will have a=20 discussion on the requirements for the auto-discovery mechanisms.=20 We will start by reviewing the LSVR requirement set. =20 If our discussions today do not come to a clear conclusion,=20 the chairs are willing to sponsor an interim on the topic.=20 =20 Susan Hares and John Scudder.=20 =20 From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf..org ] = On Behalf Of Susan Hares Sent: Monday, July 2, 2018 1:09 PM To: idr@ietf.org Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org Subject: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery =20 Greetings:=20 =20 This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16). =20 =20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/ =20 The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response = to this email. I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing = co-authors to respond by July 7th. =20 =20 The WG should consider the following:=20 1) Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers = within Data Centers?=20 2) Does this mechanism work for other deployments?=20 =20 3) If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? =20 Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc).=20 =20 4) Does this interact with any of the LSVR work?=20 =20 I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through = some of the WG LC for other drafts. We decided to wait until some of = those discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption = call. =20 =20 Susan Hares=20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01D42012.38830DC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Gaurav:

 

We need input on = requirements rather than solutions at this time. =C2=A0=C2=A0At this = point, we are not considering any solutions until we define the = requirements.=C2=A0 Please help us define the requirements. =

 

Susan Hares =

 

From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Gaurav Dawra
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 10:03 = AM
To: "=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99= =8E(= =E4=B9=89=E5=85=88)"
Cc: idr; = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery; Idr; Susan Hares
Subject: = Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

 

Hi Sue,

 

As I have shared earlier during adoption call. I have = specific concerns on this document which we have shared with the authors = on thread and offline. There are no authors currently from = LinkedIn.

 

We will continue to provide input once those concerns = have been addressed.

 

Cheers,

 

Gaurav

Sent from my = iPhone


On Jul 20, 2018, at 7:49 AM, =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) <xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com= > wrote:

= Hi Sue,

=  

= Understood, I will. 

=  

= By the way, some authors of this draft are exactly from MSDC operators = including Alibaba, Tencent and = LinkedIn.

=  

= Best regards,

= Xiaohu

=  

= ------------------------------------------------------------------

= From:Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>=

= Send Time:2018=E5=B9=B4= 7=E6=9C=88= 20=E6=97=A5= (=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E4=BA=94= ) 19:18

= To:=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E= (=E4=B9=89=E5=85= =88= ) <xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com= >; Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org>; idr = <idr@ietf.org>

= Cc:draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery <draft-xu-idr= -neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org>

=

= Subject:RE: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

=  

Xiaohu:

 

Our next step is to gather requirements for the = IDR neighbor discovery from the WG.  We would especially be = interested in feedback on requirements from operators of data = centers.  If you know of an operators of medium data centers who = could send requirements to the IDR chairs or the IDR list, it would be = helpful.

 

Cheerily, Susan Hares

 

= From:= Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of ???(??)
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 7:12 = AM
To: Idr; idr
Cc: = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery
Subject: Re: [Idr] WG = adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

 

=  

= Hi Sue,

=  

= Thanks for launching the WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery.

=  

= Hi all,

=  

= There has been one implementation developed by a switch vendor. = Furthermore at least two additional implementations from other = vendors are under construction. If any of you have any concrete and = technical concerns on this mechanism, please feel free to tell = us and we would like to verify your concerns on the implementation = and then give you feedbacks.

=  

= Best regards,

= Xiaohu

= ------------------------------------------------------------------=

= From:Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>

= Send Time:2018=E5=B9=B4= 7=E6=9C=88= 19=E6=97=A5= (=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B= ) 17:59

= To:idr <idr@ietf.org>

= Cc:draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery <draft-xu-idr= -neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org>

= Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

=  

This closes the 2 week adoption for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

(July 2 =E2=80=93 July = 16).

 

The WG chairs conclude = on my original questions that:

1)  There is WG interest = to have an auto-discovery mechanism

that will work for BGP peers in Data = Centers

 

2)  There is some WG =  interest having this work

in other deployments.

 

3)  There is no consensus = on the mechanisms

(BGP hellos or other mechanisms)

Or requirements for the mechanisms.

 

4)  There is WG consensus = and AD Consensus that we should

collaborate with LSVR. One mechanism for both would =

be good, but it needs to fit the requirements = set

by the WG.  

 

There is no consensus = on adoption this draft.

 

During today=E2=80=99s = IDR session (18:10-19:10), we will have a

discussion on the = requirements for the auto-discovery mechanisms.

We will start by = reviewing the LSVR requirement set.

 

If our discussions = today do not come to a clear conclusion,

the chairs are willing = to sponsor an interim on the topic.

 

Susan Hares and John = Scudder.

 

= From:= Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf..org] = On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: Monday, July 2, 2018 = 1:09 PM
To: idr@ietf.org
Cc: draft-xu-idr= -neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org
Subject: [Idr] WG = adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

 

Greetings: =

 

This begins a 2 week WG = adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =E2=80=93 = July 16). 

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-= autodiscovery/

 

The authors of this draft = should send their IPR statements in response to this email.  I hope = the authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors to respond by July = 7th. 

 

The WG should consider the = following:

1)      Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism = for peers within Data Centers?

2)      Does this mechanism work for other deployments? =

 

3)      If so, should be passed in BGP Hello = message? 

Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. = LLDP, BFD, etc).

 

4)      Does this interact with any of the LSVR work? =

 

I want to thank the = authors for their patience while we sorted through some of the WG LC for = other drafts.  We decided to wait until some of those discussion = were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption = call.

 

 

Susan Hares =

=  

 

=

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------=_NextPart_000_003F_01D42012.38830DC0-- From nobody Fri Jul 20 08:03:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93AE8130E0D for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 08:03:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -12.52 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.52 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5qufSKDEO1qI for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 08:03:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D886B129619 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 08:03:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=32289; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1532099010; x=1533308610; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=D1ytT7IrEB6L3Eb9G+013kShr71MmnrYdGVbezND1/M=; b=Bp6gXGBPeaBcY2+5FSOA/XKUOUdMkd1HqmL3MVOd0oBLkVEd9uaC6Hky Hpuqa3kk3tVndT1QKeX2jKHzHUG7d3AKwf8c+6xLu3VigXa6xr7AvO2s0 byPAhHVdyQQGYOU4M/MhfhVl9I0ngBIk5Fe7X+ysiV2Q2o8gBFYZxEvQX A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0C8AABE+VFb/51dJa1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYJXdmN/KAqLeIwvggyVPBSBZgsihEoCgwwhNBgBAgEBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAm0cAQuFNgEBAQMBDCFBCwULAgEIEQQBAQEgAQYHMhQJCAIEDgUIDIMNgRt?= =?us-ascii?q?cCA+sFIpSiQKBVz+BEYMRgxkBAQIBF4ETARIBVQiFGAKHUYonh3QJAoYPiRe?= =?us-ascii?q?BTUODT4gbikKHOAIRFIEkHThhcXAVO4JpCYFsLRqDRYUUhT5vAQGLCIEfgRs?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,380,1526342400"; d="scan'208,217";a="416222282" Received: from rcdn-core-6.cisco.com ([173.37.93.157]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 20 Jul 2018 15:03:28 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-012.cisco.com (xch-aln-012.cisco.com [173.36.7.22]) by rcdn-core-6.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6KF3SiA003329 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:03:29 GMT Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com (173.36.7.24) by XCH-ALN-012.cisco.com (173.36.7.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:03:28 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) by XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:03:28 -0500 From: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" To: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" CC: idr wg , Robert Raszuk , John Scudder Thread-Topic: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) Thread-Index: AQHUH7co+mrsl73k3Uy/PrxMkuCLEaSXdqtggABYI4D//605EIABAKiA//+2iVA= Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:03:28 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> <3a8b0cff4cdf4968b950d5e43810602a@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <7422_1532096146_5B51EE91_7422_187_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A47AF91DE@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <7422_1532096146_5B51EE91_7422_187_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A47AF91DE@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.86.254.250] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_dc277cae8dee49de92985bcd9bba81faXCHALN014ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.22, xch-aln-012.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-6.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:03:35 -0000 --_000_dc277cae8dee49de92985bcd9bba81faXCHALN014ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm going for bang for the buck. There is not enough bang for the buck in variable length communities. I cannot see variable length communities ever being developed. We will keep squeezing the existing communities and when someone really nee= ds an attribute that won't fit into one or a set of communities, they will = develop a new attribute. Regards, Jakob. From: bruno.decraene@orange.com Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 7:16 AM To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) Cc: idr wg ; Robert Raszuk ; John Scudder = Subject: RE: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your prese= ntations ...) 1) I can see that from an implementer standpoint, in the short term, implem= enting one fixed length community is easier than a variable length one. But the bigger picture is the long term work for the whole community. Hence the point is to compare, in the long run, one variable length communi= ty format to N fixed length community formats. And evaluate the costs of sp= ecifying, implementing, testing, deploying, debugging, maintaining, operati= ng (N sets of BGP policies) It's clear that for N=3D255, one variable community format is better. I can= 't really imagine the nightmare with N=3D20. Currently we have N=3D3, and two more propositions on the way. So this prop= osition is N=3D5 in the very short term. Finally, IMO, the argument "I'm just asking for one more, it's urgent" has = been taken by the BGP large community attribute. Now we need to look at the= big long term picture. 2) Even for your own use case, I would argue that a variable length would b= e a better fit.. >From the abstract: " Auto-derived identifiers are used by applications to enable zero configuration features. Such identifiers are often a combination of primitive identifiers and are thus longer. " I think the sentence is missing "and variable in length" Thanks, Regards, --Bruno From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jakob Heitz (jheitz) Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 12:05 AM To: John Scudder Cc: idr wg; Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your prese= ntations ...) The thing is I want to reuse the extended community code as much as possibl= e. The routing policy code and its associated configuration, show, xml and deb= ug commands is the bulk of it. The more you deviate, the harder it gets. Variable length is a big deviation. Regards, Jakob. From: John Scudder > Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 8:53 PM To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) > Cc: Robert Raszuk >; Jeffrey Ha= as >; idr wg > Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your prese= ntations ...) (speaking as an individual WG contributor) I think it is a big mistake to suggest that the reason flexcomms/wide comms= hasn't progressed is that it's variable-length. It's much more ambitious t= han any of the fixed-length stuff we have, that's a reason. It's recursive,= that might be a reason too. But just because it's variable-length? Not buy= ing it. $0.02, --John On Jul 19, 2018, at 11:48 PM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) > wrote: Not at all. Experience has shown that fixed works very well. Large community went from concept to RFC and code complete with all the rou= ting policy code in 2 years, because we could reuse the community code. Variable length communities started in 2002 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lange-flexible-bgp-communities-00 The code will have to be written from scratch. Regards, Jakob. From: Idr > On Behalf Of = Robert Raszuk Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 4:21 PM To: Jeffrey Haas > Cc: idr wg > Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your prese= ntations ...) > If we must do fixed I do not think we must do fixed. I see no reason to stick with fixed. Experience has proven that fixed does not work .. we see this clear in the = proposals being submitted and even presented at IDR. Time to learn from pas= t mistakes. Thx, Robert On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:11 AM, Jeffrey Haas > wrote: On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 12:52:44AM +0200, Robert Raszuk wrote: > 4. New additional RTC SAFI for 30 octets XXXL ext communities is ... insa= ne > - not only obvious but then you would need to get complex dealing with > different/opposite filtering results from different RTCs SAFIs. I would like to offer a very specific reductio ad absurdum: I propose that the next version of communities we do, if they must be fixed length, must be 253 octets of value and 255 bytes of total size. If we must do fixed, do it and be done for a long while. -- Jeff _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf...org/mailman/listinfo/idr _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman= _listinfo_idr&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r= =3DhLt5iDJpw7ukqICc0hoT7A&m=3D2hIY6rLbAvAIj9fLY9vdCZMdoxjfktxXE0SPGa4SW9Y&s= =3DANHXDEVazzM11nlzarMDH82yonWcxAhaK1ABXs_A62w&e=3D ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_dc277cae8dee49de92985bcd9bba81faXCHALN014ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I'm going for bang for the buck.<= /span>

There is not enough bang for the buck in var= iable length communities.

I cannot see variable length communities eve= r being developed.

We will keep squeezing the existing communit= ies and when someone really needs an attribute that won't fit into one or a= set of communities, they will develop a new attribute.

 

Regards,

Jakob.

 

From: bruno.decraene@orange.com <= bruno.decraene@orange.com>
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 7:16 AM
To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com>
Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net= >; John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net>
Subject: RE: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on you= r presentations ...)

 

1) I can see that from an implementer sta= ndpoint, in the short term, implementing one fixed length community is easi= er than a variable length one.

 

But the bigger picture is the long term w= ork for the whole community.

 

Hence the point is to compare, in the lon= g run, one variable length community format to N fixed length community for= mats. And evaluate the costs of specifying, implementing, testing, deploying, debugging, maintaining, operating (N sets of BGP polic= ies)

It’s clear that for N=3D255, one va= riable community format is better. I can’t really imagine the nightma= re with N=3D20.

Currently we have N=3D3, and two more pro= positions on the way. So this proposition is N=3D5 in the very short term.<= o:p>

 

Finally, IMO, the argument “I’= ;m just asking for one more, it’s urgent” has been taken by the= BGP large community attribute. Now we need to look at the big long term picture.

 

 

2) Even for your own use case, I would ar= gue that a variable length would be a better fit..

From the abstract:

“   Auto-derived identifiers are used by a= pplications to enable zero

   configuration features.  Such identifier= s are often a combination of

   primitive identifiers and are thus longer. &#= 8220;

 

I think the sentence is missing “an= d variable in length”

 

Thanks,

Regards,

--Bruno

 

 

From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jakob Heitz (jheitz)
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 12:05 AM
To: John Scudder
Cc: idr wg; Robert Raszuk
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on you= r presentations ...)

 

The thing is I want to reuse the extended co= mmunity code as much as possible.

The routing policy code and its associated c= onfiguration, show, xml and debug commands is the bulk of it.

The more you deviate, the harder it gets.

Variable length is a big deviation.

 

Regards,

Jakob.

 

From: John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 8:53 PM
To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jhe= itz@cisco.com>
Cc: Robert Raszuk <robert@ra= szuk.net>; Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@= pfrc.org>; idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on you= r presentations ...)

 

(speaking as an individual WG contributor)

 

I think it is a big mistake to suggest that the reas= on flexcomms/wide comms hasn't progressed is that it's variable-length. It'= s much more ambitious than any of the fixed-length stuff we have, that's a = reason. It's recursive, that might be a reason too. But just because it's variable-length? Not buying it.

 

$0.02,

 

--John

 

 

Not at all. Experience has shown that fixed = works very well.

Large community went from concept to RFC and= code complete with all the routing policy code in 2 years,

because we could reuse the community code.

Variable length communities started in 2002<= /span>

The code will have to be written from scratc= h.

 

Regards,

Jakob.

 

From: Idr <i= dr-bounces@ietf.org>&nb= sp;On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
Sent: Thursday, Ju= ly 19, 2018 4:21 PM
To: Jeffrey Haas &= lt;jhaas@pfr= c.org>
Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr]= Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...)

 

 

> If we must do fixed<= /o:p>

 

I do not think we must do fixed. I see no reason to stick with fixed.&= nbsp;

 

Experience has proven that fixed does not work .. we see this clear in= the proposals being submitted and even presented at IDR. Time to learn fro= m past mistakes. 

 

Thx,
Robert

 

 

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:11 AM, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 12:52:44AM +0200, Robert= Raszuk wrote:
> 4. New additional RTC SAFI for 30 octets XXXL ext communities is ... i= nsane
> - not only obvious but then you would need to get complex dealing with=
> different/opposite filtering results from different RTCs SAFIs.

I would like to offer a very specific reductio ad absurdum:
I propose that the next version of communities we do, if they must be fixed=
length, must be 253 octets of value and 255 bytes of total size.

If we must do fixed, do it and be done for a long while.

-- Jeff

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf= ...org/mailman/listinfo/idr

 

_______________________________________________ Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?= u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_idr&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkY= uh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DhLt5iDJpw7ukqICc0hoT7A&= m=3D2hIY6rLbAvAIj9fLY9vdCZMdoxjfktxXE0SPGa4SW9Y&s=3DANHXDEVazzM11nlzarM= DH82yonWcxAhaK1ABXs_A62w&e=3D

 

____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<=
/o:p>
 
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
ointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
 
This message and its attachments may contain confide=
ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please not=
ify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for m=
essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.
--_000_dc277cae8dee49de92985bcd9bba81faXCHALN014ciscocom_-- From nobody Fri Jul 20 08:29:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47CB813106A for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 08:29:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.609 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.609 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ySXK7VHruoku for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 08:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orange.com (mta239.mail.business.static.orange.com [80.12.66.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEC8413118C for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 08:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar07.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.9]) by opfedar26.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 41XFDd2GZQzFpkx; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:29:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.72]) by opfedar07.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 41XFDd0wfmz5vMq; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:29:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e92a:c932:907e:8f06]) by OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0399.000; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:29:36 +0200 From: To: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" CC: idr wg , Robert Raszuk , John Scudder Thread-Topic: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) Thread-Index: AQHUH7coy/HEuSP/UUG7O/8rlA9TR6SXdqtggABYI4D//605EIABAKiA//+2iVCAAAhnkA== Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:29:36 +0000 Message-ID: <20474_1532100577_5B51FFE1_20474_202_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A47AF963B@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> <3a8b0cff4cdf4968b950d5e43810602a@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <7422_1532096146_5B51EE91_7422_187_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A47AF91DE@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.2] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A47AF963BOPEXCLILM21corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:29:43 -0000 --_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A47AF963BOPEXCLILM21corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That's the same argument: you are seeking local optimization based on your = position in the ecosystem. But there are other positions. Thanks for acknowledging that your plan is to continue requesting additiona= l fixed length community attributes forever. Regards, --Bruno From: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) [mailto:jheitz@cisco.com] Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 11:03 AM To: DECRAENE Bruno IMT/OLN Cc: idr wg; Robert Raszuk; John Scudder Subject: RE: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your prese= ntations ...) I'm going for bang for the buck. There is not enough bang for the buck in variable length communities. I cannot see variable length communities ever being developed. We will keep squeezing the existing communities and when someone really nee= ds an attribute that won't fit into one or a set of communities, they will = develop a new attribute. Regards, Jakob. From: bruno.decraene@orange.com Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 7:16 AM To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) Cc: idr wg ; Robert Raszuk ; John Scudder = Subject: RE: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your prese= ntations ...) 1) I can see that from an implementer standpoint, in the short term, implem= enting one fixed length community is easier than a variable length one. But the bigger picture is the long term work for the whole community. Hence the point is to compare, in the long run, one variable length communi= ty format to N fixed length community formats. And evaluate the costs of sp= ecifying, implementing, testing, deploying, debugging, maintaining, operati= ng (N sets of BGP policies) It's clear that for N=3D255, one variable community format is better. I can= 't really imagine the nightmare with N=3D20. Currently we have N=3D3, and two more propositions on the way. So this prop= osition is N=3D5 in the very short term. Finally, IMO, the argument "I'm just asking for one more, it's urgent" has = been taken by the BGP large community attribute. Now we need to look at the= big long term picture. 2) Even for your own use case, I would argue that a variable length would b= e a better fit.. >From the abstract: " Auto-derived identifiers are used by applications to enable zero configuration features. Such identifiers are often a combination of primitive identifiers and are thus longer. " I think the sentence is missing "and variable in length" Thanks, Regards, --Bruno From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jakob Heitz (jheitz) Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 12:05 AM To: John Scudder Cc: idr wg; Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your prese= ntations ...) The thing is I want to reuse the extended community code as much as possibl= e. The routing policy code and its associated configuration, show, xml and deb= ug commands is the bulk of it. The more you deviate, the harder it gets. Variable length is a big deviation. Regards, Jakob. From: John Scudder > Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 8:53 PM To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) > Cc: Robert Raszuk >; Jeffrey Ha= as >; idr wg > Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your prese= ntations ...) (speaking as an individual WG contributor) I think it is a big mistake to suggest that the reason flexcomms/wide comms= hasn't progressed is that it's variable-length. It's much more ambitious t= han any of the fixed-length stuff we have, that's a reason. It's recursive,= that might be a reason too. But just because it's variable-length? Not buy= ing it. $0.02, --John On Jul 19, 2018, at 11:48 PM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) > wrote: Not at all. Experience has shown that fixed works very well. Large community went from concept to RFC and code complete with all the rou= ting policy code in 2 years, because we could reuse the community code. Variable length communities started in 2002 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lange-flexible-bgp-communities-00 The code will have to be written from scratch. Regards, Jakob. From: Idr > On Behalf Of = Robert Raszuk Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 4:21 PM To: Jeffrey Haas > Cc: idr wg > Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your prese= ntations ...) > If we must do fixed I do not think we must do fixed. I see no reason to stick with fixed. Experience has proven that fixed does not work .. we see this clear in the = proposals being submitted and even presented at IDR. Time to learn from pas= t mistakes. Thx, Robert On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:11 AM, Jeffrey Haas > wrote: On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 12:52:44AM +0200, Robert Raszuk wrote: > 4. New additional RTC SAFI for 30 octets XXXL ext communities is ... insa= ne > - not only obvious but then you would need to get complex dealing with > different/opposite filtering results from different RTCs SAFIs. I would like to offer a very specific reductio ad absurdum: I propose that the next version of communities we do, if they must be fixed length, must be 253 octets of value and 255 bytes of total size. If we must do fixed, do it and be done for a long while. -- Jeff _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf...org/mailman/listinfo/idr _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman= _listinfo_idr&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r= =3DhLt5iDJpw7ukqICc0hoT7A&m=3D2hIY6rLbAvAIj9fLY9vdCZMdoxjfktxXE0SPGa4SW9Y&s= =3DANHXDEVazzM11nlzarMDH82yonWcxAhaK1ABXs_A62w&e=3D ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A47AF963BOPEXCLILM21corp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

That’s t= he same argument: you are seeking local optimization based on your position= in the ecosystem.

But there are = other positions.

Thanks for ack= nowledging that your plan is to continue requesting additional fixed length= community attributes forever.

 

Regards,<= /o:p>

--Bruno

 

From: Jakob He= itz (jheitz) [mailto:jheitz@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 11:03 AM
To: DECRAENE Bruno IMT/OLN
Cc: idr wg; Robert Raszuk; John Scudder
Subject: RE: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on you= r presentations ...)

 

I'm going f= or bang for the buck.

There is no= t enough bang for the buck in variable length communities.

I cannot se= e variable length communities ever being developed.

We will kee= p squeezing the existing communities and when someone really needs an attri= bute that won't fit into one or a set of communities, they will develop a new attribute.

 =

Regards,

Jakob.=

 =

From: bruno.decraene@orange.com <bruno.decraene@orange= .com>
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 7:16 AM
To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com>
Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net= >; John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net>
Subject: RE: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on you= r presentations ...)

 

1) I can see t= hat from an implementer standpoint, in the short term, implementing one fix= ed length community is easier than a variable length one.=

 

But the bigger= picture is the long term work for the whole community.

 

Hence the poin= t is to compare, in the long run, one variable length community format to N= fixed length community formats. And evaluate the costs of specifying, implementing, testing, deploying, debugging, maintaining, oper= ating (N sets of BGP policies)

It’s cle= ar that for N=3D255, one variable community format is better. I can’t= really imagine the nightmare with N=3D20.

Currently we h= ave N=3D3, and two more propositions on the way. So this proposition is N= =3D5 in the very short term.

 

Finally, IMO, = the argument “I’m just asking for one more, it’s urgent&#= 8221; has been taken by the BGP large community attribute. Now we need to l= ook at the big long term picture.

 

 

2) Even for yo= ur own use case, I would argue that a variable length would be a better fit= ..

From the abstr= act:

“   Auto-= derived identifiers are used by applications to enable zero

   configuratio= n features.  Such identifiers are often a combination of

   primitive id= entifiers and are thus longer. “

 

I think the se= ntence is missing “and variable in length”

 

Thanks,

Regards,<= /o:p>

--Bruno

 

 

From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jakob Heitz (jheitz)
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 12:05 AM
To: John Scudder
Cc: idr wg; Robert Raszuk
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on you= r presentations ...)

 

The thing i= s I want to reuse the extended community code as much as possible.

The routing= policy code and its associated configuration, show, xml and debug commands= is the bulk of it.

The more yo= u deviate, the harder it gets.

Variable le= ngth is a big deviation.

 =

Regards,

Jakob.=

 =

From: John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 8:53 PM
To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jhe= itz@cisco.com>
Cc: Robert Raszuk <robert@ra= szuk.net>; Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@= pfrc.org>; idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on you= r presentations ...)

 

(speaking as an individual WG c= ontributor)

 

I think it is a big mistake to = suggest that the reason flexcomms/wide comms hasn't progressed is that it's= variable-length. It's much more ambitious than any of the fixed-length stu= ff we have, that's a reason. It's recursive, that might be a reason too. But just because it's variable-length? Not buy= ing it.

 

$0.02,

 

--John

 

 

Not at all.= Experience has shown that fixed works very well.

Large commu= nity went from concept to RFC and code complete with all the routing policy= code in 2 years,

because we = could reuse the community code.

Variable le= ngth communities started in 2002

The code wi= ll have to be written from scratch.<= /span>

 

Regards,

Jakob.

 

From: Idr <i= dr-bounces@ietf.org>&nb= sp;On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
Sent: Thursday, Ju= ly 19, 2018 4:21 PM
To: Jeffrey Haas &= lt;jhaas@pfr= c.org>
Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr]= Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...)

 

 

> If we= must do fixed

 

I do not think we must do fixed. I see no r= eason to stick with fixed. 

 

Experience has proven that fixed does not w= ork .. we see this clear in the proposals being submitted and even presente= d at IDR. Time to learn from past mistakes. 

 

Thx,
Robert

 

 

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:11 AM= , Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 12:52:4= 4AM +0200, Robert Raszuk wrote:
> 4. New additional RTC SAFI for 30 octets XXXL ext communities is ... i= nsane
> - not only obvious but then you would need to get complex dealing with=
> different/opposite filtering results from different RTCs SAFIs.

I would like to offer a very specific reductio ad absurdum:
I propose that the next version of communities we do, if they must be fixed=
length, must be 253 octets of value and 255 bytes of total size.

If we must do fixed, do it and be done for a long while.

-- Jeff

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf= ...org/mailman/listinfo/idr

 

_______________________= ________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https:= //urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listi= nfo_idr&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&= amp;r=3DhLt5iDJpw7ukqICc0hoT7A&m=3D2hIY6rLbAvAIj9fLY9vdCZMdoxjfktxXE0SP= Ga4SW9Y&s=3DANHXDEVazzM11nlzarMDH82yonWcxAhaK1ABXs_A62w&e=3D=

 

__________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________________________<=
/span>
 
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des info=
rmations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. =
Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes=
. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete al=
tere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
 
This message and its attachments may contain confidential =
or privileged information that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without aut=
horisation.


If you have received this email in error, please notify th=
e sender and delete this message and its attachments.

As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for message=
s that have been modified, changed or falsified.


Thank you.


______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
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--_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A47AF963BOPEXCLILM21corp_-- From nobody Fri Jul 20 08:43:55 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 781DF130EC4 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 08:43:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z-wsmZzmLQ_N for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 08:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA66A130E02 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 08:43:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=605; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1532101431; x=1533311031; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:content-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=rl4DHv1/U23l0EETcLuNACOISEVwSwJdsLamJ8XZYM8=; b=jnkAi9WJjy6/owa1FHmwZtBZmfZmXqHg8Yi7MdaxEydthg+PBJnSs6tN mZr5jjCnA5bBZu9hLnZZ0UnCExSXo1pVd8QTwteR3UoRXvTcj54wiIS2V AcBwJ/D7PqKlhn2YML2GI9snOB0YhGo4Zcmuv3EQvvEARbbIGs30RbFrn Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CEAgDVAlJb/5JdJa1cGgEBAQEBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEIAQEBAYNNgWKYWoFolWCBeguEbIMOITUXAQIBAQIBAQJtHQuFdzgHEgE?= =?us-ascii?q?+QicEDoMlggCsQoRdhXWJAoFXP4ERJwyLC4IkAplsCQKPLg6BKQ6EEogbkXo?= =?us-ascii?q?CERSBJB8CNIFScBVlAYI/kFKOMwEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,380,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="426495961" Received: from rcdn-core-10.cisco.com ([173.37.93.146]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 20 Jul 2018 15:43:50 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-014.cisco.com (xch-rcd-014.cisco.com [173.37.102.24]) by rcdn-core-10.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6KFholD021568 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:43:50 GMT Received: from xch-aln-005.cisco.com (173.36.7.15) by XCH-RCD-014.cisco.com (173.37.102.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:43:50 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-005.cisco.com ([173.36.7.15]) by XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com ([173.36.7.15]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:43:50 -0500 From: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" To: "idr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: BGP Auto discovery - L2 liveliness?? Thread-Index: AQHUIEB01T6SLTc23kmf3spCW7QnGA== Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:43:49 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.24, xch-rcd-014.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-10.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] BGP Auto discovery - L2 liveliness?? X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:43:54 -0000 Could someone please explain - How is L2 liveliness important for auto-disc= overy between 2 directly connected BGP neighbors (referring to the topology= shown yesterday)? Or is it really meant to benefit the peering relationshi= p (once established) - bring down the peer if L2 fails or vice versa? Or is it meant to benefit the (tenant/services) traffic (past bgp NLRI exch= ange) ? Likely not, since (tenant/services) traffic may be L3 (or MPLS), a= nd L2 liveliness would not be sufficient (after all, L2 can be working, whi= le L3 might not or MPLS might not).=20 Cheers, Rajiv =20 From nobody Fri Jul 20 09:03:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E2D7130DF0 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 09:03:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tfTPRuvYD39N for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 09:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52EB5130E50 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 09:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A3CC81E3CE; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:03:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:03:28 -0400 From: Jeffrey Haas To: bruno.decraene@orange.com Cc: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" , idr wg , Robert Raszuk Message-ID: <20180720160328.GC10999@pfrc.org> References: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> <3a8b0cff4cdf4968b950d5e43810602a@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <7422_1532096146_5B51EE91_7422_187_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A47AF91DE@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <20474_1532100577_5B51FFE1_20474_202_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A47AF963B@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20474_1532100577_5B51FFE1_20474_202_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A47AF963B@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 16:03:43 -0000 On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 03:29:36PM +0000, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote: > That's the same argument: you are seeking local optimization based on your position in the ecosystem. > But there are other positions. > Thanks for acknowledging that your plan is to continue requesting additional fixed length community attributes forever. Indeed. Contents of xxc draft: type:subtype:v6:6 type:subtype:v4:18 type:subtype:as4:18 type:evpn subtype 4:as4:esi (10):MBZ(8) type:evpn subtype 5:as4:esi (10):evi-rt (4): MBZ(4) type:evpn subtype 6:as4:A+space(1):D-ID(1):service-id(16) (zero filled) If the goal was the first three generics were intended to have similar local-admin lengths, 6 would be the size instead of 6,18,18. (Large community argument: uniformity.) The evpn objects outright say they're reserving/wasting space. I already get nag mail from operators about "how many of X can I put in the packet". I'd really like to keep things compact. -- Jeff From nobody Fri Jul 20 09:06:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06115130FB1 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 09:06:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -12.52 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.52 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9wWUvxnD4k5X for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 09:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-2.cisco.com (alln-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.142.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9141C130F7B for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 09:05:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=46065; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1532102757; x=1533312357; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=0Wkl0j3QFxN5gO6YaMFELBDh/fMunc5HzsPC6hrnFlU=; b=msTNYQnSbmpqG4fBhT33BnxfLSFa7+0ygeat+wxQu+/fBDa9bV+A0JMf 7oub0Dvyk1s268E/jzkiaFT44OqeDEFlgjQ6IHu+6NdMMOSD3iqxDJhCi YSfeyaTCstowvLqCiwk1F9mwXRXYPHMLojb0nGMt/lnZZPsFsi3UzgW9b s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0C3AAC1B1Jb/5BdJa1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYJXdmMPcCiDfogEjDGBaCR1lEeBdwMLGAEJhEoCF4J1ITQ?= =?us-ascii?q?YAQIBAQIBAQJtHAyFNgEBAQMBAQEhCkELBQsCARYDBAEBASABBgMCAgIlCxQ?= =?us-ascii?q?JCAIEDgUUgwwBgRtcCA+qB36BLopSiQKBVz+BEScMgWBJg04BAQIBF4FdHwi?= =?us-ascii?q?CQzGCJAKReId0CQKGD4kfgUVDg0+IG4pChGSCVAIRFIEkHTiBUnAVOyoBgj4?= =?us-ascii?q?JgWwtGoNFhRSFPm8BAY1CAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,380,1526342400"; d="scan'208,217";a="146021181" Received: from rcdn-core-8.cisco.com ([173.37.93.144]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 20 Jul 2018 16:05:56 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com (xch-rcd-008.cisco.com [173.37.102.18]) by rcdn-core-8.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6KG5uXc015618 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 20 Jul 2018 16:05:56 GMT Received: from xch-aln-005.cisco.com (173.36.7.15) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:05:55 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-005.cisco.com ([173.36.7.15]) by XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com ([173.36.7.15]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:05:55 -0500 From: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" To: Susan Hares CC: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" , John Scudder , idr wg , Robert Raszuk Thread-Topic: BGP-LS vs gRPC/gpb or... Thread-Index: AQHUIEOKgNnc4+ay10+ikE0cg3Qbbg== Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 16:05:55 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> <3a8b0cff4cdf4968b950d5e43810602a@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <00ac01d42013$f5d7b910$e1872b30$@ndzh.com> <9e8263dc30654287a0875afea50349bb@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com>, <003101d42033$a9f84cb0$fde8e610$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: <003101d42033$a9f84cb0$fde8e610$@ndzh.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B32A3D4F29A543728B8C21B3EB043254ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.18, xch-rcd-008.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-8.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] BGP-LS vs gRPC/gpb or... 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amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l0PQUhm8UnTP for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 09:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38C44130FDB for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 09:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C7E1D1E3CE; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:16:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:16:06 -0400 From: Jeffrey Haas To: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" Cc: Susan Hares , "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" , idr wg , Robert Raszuk Message-ID: <20180720161606.GD10999@pfrc.org> References: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> <3a8b0cff4cdf4968b950d5e43810602a@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <00ac01d42013$f5d7b910$e1872b30$@ndzh.com> <9e8263dc30654287a0875afea50349bb@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <003101d42033$a9f84cb0$fde8e610$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP-LS vs gRPC/gpb or... X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 16:16:21 -0000 On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 04:05:55PM +0000, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) wrote: > (Changed the subjust line).. > > BGP-LS was proposed for today’s world. > > Perhaps. But Given the growing usage of more and more (streaming or not) telemetry data from every node in a pseudo real-time manner (using pick your favorite transport machinery - gRPC/Gpb, restconf/xml/yang, SNMP...etc), it is worth asking ourselves, whether BGP(-LS) is still the right vehicle for conveying IGP (and more) related info. > One portion of BGP-LS was to be used by other routing mechanisms for spanning IGP domains. Putting your question a different way, "do I want to use grpc to consume routing state necessary for multi IGP domain work?" Not really. I'm quite supportive of other access mechanisms for that data once you have it. grpc, yang/i2rs. -- Jeff From nobody Fri Jul 20 10:02:06 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8916C130F13 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:02:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.659 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.659 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=highloadlab-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q7sufLeOmjSk for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x52f.google.com (mail-pg1-x52f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62F08130F04 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52f.google.com with SMTP id k3-v6so7374539pgq.5 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:02:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=highloadlab-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=3Qwoit9psu7AQZxRpVfU42lI0mVWbOZ6+vynRrUNUmM=; b=DbOFL10tbxA7Ia7foPmbOjMw8cUzWbJIPSXFE7LkDCQXkoVH3peA0PJ59Dnj35pbS4 TD8T6eQCZ/cR1+lzJWnN4FIamrZCcjD83WEdnkJtpNMoiH/U217G9EnqVHfoqh48/Sjm q0zO/e9YZXF6P1t2iu/E7Af2ETsbemtnpFK0ekYTbrQimg5ib4r3hoti1y0L/01q9qEx qUs4yFFxEuQVUBCUJDpAfdUd0nwrXYxSHaEL0PKCTBqkod1AswUm1nJG68v6HRfZHi7J f9MHxzFmap+vs29UEbDjwVBp8oQ+Q8smge0J8KRW5L/DAkU8jNPgx1v7fXwyYvjYIbw/ heyA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject :to; bh=3Qwoit9psu7AQZxRpVfU42lI0mVWbOZ6+vynRrUNUmM=; b=rmFel2YE+MktUNBukxpTPUeJ/G/X3XOyekLf/ZfYsFFO+EmcIDjx4cYGWzC37nHiLS SADwE7So8Lxh+ZmVHptnWRbF+WuARGUK/Cld4cWDHayF30eO2e5/CuXewMJMDXIw7bwh 8PJnv7gHOnacPw6FbRRlIW/Gj5/+9lQf9ShzOOIExwkyFSFvve2o56Ni1c4tDQyc6mkp 6PdCJQc0Wh8dLfvL1qoaya+ypX1E4fuyj/fERHeKXBQCRvfYxltvy6+R3KHlRvg3kYrZ ARJEOWJ/VAaDomCsulWS50J2cMR6qVsPRZlfkQQ+PMfAwL+886revLpgd12IV9hJkPV/ qPyQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlFiE0ycVx3+F/TcKRbr3Us1d9cg6JW4ZS5lonG6L5qyKWVo9/WS RtuADh6sv0NaGR8gqbiNzTIaI+XldUcoKyt1AHv7mY7l2x5iNg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcTpcUOngkFMIBieqkFCxtAp8SXkoq8F4Kml67ZIdIfTopmsa8kaOHY77GM2HfXOMcj3BAsrIYaNXe90XOg9Nk= X-Received: by 2002:a63:7d7:: with SMTP id 206-v6mr2808144pgh.137.1532106121760; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:02:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: aa@highloadlab.com Received: by 2002:a17:90a:22c9:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:02:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [2001:67c:370:128:90a2:abaf:30d3:58a6] From: Alexander Azimov Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 20:02:01 +0300 X-Google-Sender-Auth: td7FFSOGoxHIKfnZHdoDL1eYMGw Message-ID: To: idr wg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002564a105717141a1" Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] Default Policy: Ovewritten LOCAL_PREF X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:02:05 -0000 --0000000000002564a105717141a1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear all, Just to follow up on my talk, before the daily job will grab back all my attention. IMO we need default policies that will process different kinds of signals (GRSH, Leak detection, others) that must have support in the code of the routing software. At the same time, I have an uneasy feeling if default policy will silently overwrite route map configuration. And at least one implementation of GRSH already does it. My idea is that instead of encoding processing of these signals inside LOCAL_PREF (btw, loosing information) we may create route separation on top of BGP decision process. This should avoid the need for applying default policies after route maps, so there would be strict order 'default policy' -> 'routing policy'. -- | Alexander Azimov | HLL l QRATOR | tel.: +7 499 241 81 92 | mob.: +7 915 360 08 86 | skype: mitradir | mailto: aa@qrator.net | visit: www.qrator.net --0000000000002564a105717141a1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --0000000000002564a105717141a1-- From nobody Fri Jul 20 10:02:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A96F1310A6 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:02:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bEJg-eT1raQA for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08F7A130F2C for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:02:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1254; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1532106127; x=1533315727; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=AXGT4UE+I6BYEng0rAgVoLsqa2jLvHVDuZR8vCY1uFg=; b=GBwqPD57uDs9UgnKQWQcMGkjJU837zG2IAOdsD8l+9vPtMl7X1nNf2Hq rZRkLmG1JX9IwILoLBB+rYMHfBaoDeNwcGFYOzppYgI/DCSidYRa7qxk0 F0+MWOIdex7Sg1cq36UgRsvvFQ8B0l7FYDt+FkRK5fhU2SMmU/V5DlcFl w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DwAQC6FFJb/5xdJa1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYNNY38oCoN0iASMMYFog1ySBIF6CyOESQIXgnUhNBgBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAgEBAm0cDIU3BiMRPgcQAgEIGgImAgICMBUQAgQBDQWDIAGBfw+rOoEuhF2?= =?us-ascii?q?FbgWBC4d3ghaBEScMgl6DGQKBYIMBMYIkAplsCQKPLoFFhBKIG5F6AhEUgSQ?= =?us-ascii?q?dOIFScBVlAYI+ixWFPm8BjAeBGwEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,380,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="146288923" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 20 Jul 2018 17:02:06 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-004.cisco.com (xch-rtp-004.cisco.com [64.101.220.144]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6KH25ea023873 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:02:06 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) by XCH-RTP-004.cisco.com (64.101.220.144) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:02:05 -0400 Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:02:05 -0400 From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" To: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" , "idr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: BGP Auto discovery - L2 liveliness?? Thread-Index: AQHUIEB01T6SLTc23kmf3spCW7QnGKSYVkMA Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:02:05 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.114.11] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 64.101.220.144, xch-rtp-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-5.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP Auto discovery - L2 liveliness?? 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Thread-Index: AQHUIEOew5KdSfnrZUyuGtyd24zeqaSYnTYA//+4oYA= Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:02:06 +0000 Message-ID: <1014fb100bc9480186daa14ca4d73065@XCH-ALN-008.cisco.com> References: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> <3a8b0cff4cdf4968b950d5e43810602a@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <00ac01d42013$f5d7b910$e1872b30$@ndzh.com> <9e8263dc30654287a0875afea50349bb@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <003101d42033$a9f84cb0$fde8e610$@ndzh.com> <20180720161606.GD10999@pfrc.org> In-Reply-To: <20180720161606.GD10999@pfrc.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.56.233] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.18, xch-aln-008.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-11.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP-LS vs gRPC/gpb or... 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Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:20:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a17:90a:d396:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:20:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 19:20:46 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: EQlIgLa7o4eErxw9-aa51cOmB5Q Message-ID: To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" , lsvr@ietf.org Cc: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" , idr wg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003652bc057171849b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP Auto discovery - L2 liveliness?? X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:20:50 -0000 --0000000000003652bc057171849b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Acee, I have a comment on this section 6 and subsequent section 5.2.2 of the document you quoted: Link Hello are proposed to detect the L2-L2.5-L3 liveness. Well there is a lot of real life issues with link liveness appearing sporadically and only at some specific packet sizes. The Hello of fixed size of 25 octets will not detect it. A sweep size is a must. That perhaps will not likely appear in p2p fiber - however if someone is trying to use emulated L2 links as part of DC infra it may very well be the case. Thx, R. On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 7:02 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) < acee=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > Hi Rajiv, > This function is described in section 6 of https://www.ietf.org/id/draft- > ymbk-lsvr-lsoe-01.txt. I guess you are questioned whether it should be a > requirement of this mechanism. > > Thanks, > Acee > > =EF=BB=BFOn 7/20/18, 11:43 AM, "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" = wrote: > > > Could someone please explain - How is L2 liveliness important for > auto-discovery between 2 directly connected BGP neighbors (referring to t= he > topology shown yesterday)? Or is it really meant to benefit the peering > relationship (once established) - bring down the peer if L2 fails or vice > versa? > > Or is it meant to benefit the (tenant/services) traffic (past bgp NLR= I > exchange) ? Likely not, since (tenant/services) traffic may be L3 (or > MPLS), and L2 liveliness would not be sufficient (after all, L2 can be > working, while L3 might not or MPLS might not). > > Cheers, > Rajiv > > > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > --0000000000003652bc057171849b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Acee,

I have a comment on this s= ection 6 and subsequent section 5.2.2 of the document you quoted:=C2=A0

Link Hello are proposed t= o detect the L2-L2.5-L3 liveness. Well there is a lot of real life issues w= ith link liveness appearing sporadically and only at some specific packet s= izes. The Hello of fixed size of 25 octets will not detect it. A sweep size= is a must.=C2=A0

That= perhaps will not likely appear in p2p fiber - however if someone is trying= to use emulated L2 links as part of DC infra it may very well be the case.= =C2=A0

Thx,
R.


<= /div>

On Fri, Jul = 20, 2018 at 7:02 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee=3D40cisco.co= m@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Hi= Rajiv,
This function is described in section 6 of https:= //www.ietf.org/id/draft-ymbk-lsvr-lsoe-01.txt. I guess you are que= stioned whether it should be a requirement of this mechanism.

Thanks,
Acee

=EF=BB=BFOn 7/20/18, 11:43 AM, "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva@cisco.com> wrote:


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Could someone please explain - How is L2 liveliness important= for auto-discovery between 2 directly connected BGP neighbors (referring t= o the topology shown yesterday)? Or is it really meant to benefit the peeri= ng relationship (once established) - bring down the peer if L2 fails or vic= e versa?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Or is it meant to benefit the (tenant/services) traffic (past= bgp NLRI exchange) ? Likely not, since=C2=A0 (tenant/services) traffic may= be L3 (or MPLS), and L2 liveliness would not be sufficient (after all, L2 = can be working, while L3 might not or MPLS might not).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cheers,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Rajiv=C2=A0



_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

--0000000000003652bc057171849b-- From nobody Fri Jul 20 10:25:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6424313102A for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:25:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sbg4L3XnKf5x for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:25:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B72D5130F74 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:25:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fgZA2-0005MH-2C; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:25:46 +0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:25:45 -0400 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" Cc: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" , "idr@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/25.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP Auto discovery - L2 liveliness?? X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:25:49 -0000 > Could someone please explain - How is L2 liveliness important for > auto-discovery between 2 directly connected BGP neighbors > (referring to the topology shown yesterday)? Or is it really meant > to benefit the peering relationship (once established) - bring > down the peer if L2 fails or vice versa? while i imagine it could be used for other things, bringing down L3 sesiosn when L2 goes down would seem a good idea. randy From nobody Fri Jul 20 10:51:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD367130F06 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:51:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6HxtaGoxQri8 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4096613106F for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fgZYN-0005P4-PK; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:50:56 +0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:50:55 -0400 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" Cc: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , idr wg , Robert Raszuk In-Reply-To: References: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> <3a8b0cff4cdf4968b950d5e43810602a@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <7422_1532096146_5B51EE91_7422_187_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A47AF91DE@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/25.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:51:01 -0000 > I'm going for bang for the buck. > There is not enough bang for the buck in variable length communities. bang for whose buck? maybe ask an operator or ten. ranndy From nobody Fri Jul 20 10:53:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187CF130F06; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:52:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4p7EmPEuIoas; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1E36130FC4; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fgZaH-0005Po-V7; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:52:54 +0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:52:53 -0400 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Robert Raszuk Cc: "Acee Lindem (acee)" , lsvr@ietf.org, idr wg In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/25.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP Auto discovery - L2 liveliness?? X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:52:58 -0000 > Link Hello are proposed to detect the L2-L2.5-L3 liveness. no. only L2 you want above that, use bfd or whatever randy From nobody Fri Jul 20 11:06:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC535130E3C for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:06:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JMFLynyp0s3v for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:06:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BFC61130DE7 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:06:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=684; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1532110001; x=1533319601; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=WvoSpGdZbleNuG7sbD2caG3RbapnJY/mQAvKEo8pjsk=; b=WE0le16BEXIZzwPpLhbG4Xn/MfidXfw9vNDW3nvf49d0XAowzOOVW3dU nfMD7Xy6QvNeMekGjTnTYB6iuh5h/iczFsg0w1qGHtuLoeIqrHDfQO3TB 4DSLYeI6AE1XIjc4AL8He/pulUZJNsTKmXaLD0WIrq9OVVMxLjIHYAOcS I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0ClAAB7JFJb/5ldJa1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYNNgWIoCot4jDGCDJU8gXoLhGwCgwwhNBgBAgEBAgEBAm0?= =?us-ascii?q?ohTYBAQEBAgE6PwUHBAIBCBEEAQEfEDIdCAIEDgUIDIUECK0PilSJAoFXP4Q?= =?us-ascii?q?iilECmWwJAo8mjXqRegIRFIEkHTiBUnAVgySQU2+MCIEbAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,380,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="146025946" Received: from rcdn-core-2.cisco.com ([173.37.93.153]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 20 Jul 2018 18:06:41 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-012.cisco.com (xch-rcd-012.cisco.com [173.37.102.22]) by rcdn-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6KI6ecx023415 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:06:41 GMT Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com (173.36.7.24) by XCH-RCD-012.cisco.com (173.37.102.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:06:40 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) by XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:06:40 -0500 From: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" To: Randy Bush CC: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , idr wg , Robert Raszuk Thread-Topic: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) Thread-Index: AQHUH7co+mrsl73k3Uy/PrxMkuCLEaSXdqtggABYI4D//605EIABAKiA//+2iVCAAIWVgP//sCHg Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:06:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> <3a8b0cff4cdf4968b950d5e43810602a@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <7422_1532096146_5B51EE91_7422_187_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A47AF91DE@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.86.254.250] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.22, xch-rcd-012.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:06:45 -0000 We went 16 years trying to make a variable length community and in all that= time nobody found a compelling enough case to make it actually happen. Regards, Jakob. -----Original Message----- From: Randy Bush =20 Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 10:51 AM To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) Cc: bruno.decraene@orange.com; idr wg ; Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your prese= ntations ...) > I'm going for bang for the buck. > There is not enough bang for the buck in variable length communities. bang for whose buck? maybe ask an operator or ten. ranndy From nobody Fri Jul 20 11:07:12 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7120131247 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:07:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tmlbvg_9RpT4 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B5021311D6 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:07:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1508; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1532110024; x=1533319624; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=Y/d0Whqnj+NTGTqXaPOT26X+xrqSwdj0SnrHRKbgJY8=; b=DCIAGzqIWrgM4LmZnWb6TS8G4Y9uwOFk+31/9kw6E8GCPCoSaP2WSpU3 nvs5vHYE2CMDJdcSP69T2s2GZOTylp2VOZRLuwCA0M09Q9Of+t/xx/CzY Gk/iDUj13thYS7q7EIYoMzffmo5rsBEwnUzHI+mVpG2vgLWIp1Mm23ATO k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DwAQB7JFJb/5tdJa1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYNNY38VE4N+iASMMYFoJIM4kgSBegsjhEkCF4J1ITQYAQI?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQIBAQJtHAyFNgEBAQECASMRPgcFCwIBCBgCAiYCAgIwFRACBA4FgyABgXc?= =?us-ascii?q?ID6tSgS6EXYVyBYELh3eBVz+BEScMgl6DGQKBYIMBMYIkAplsCQKPLoFFhBK?= =?us-ascii?q?IG5F6AhEUgSQdOIFScBVlAYI+ixWFPm8BjSIBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,380,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="146073543" Received: from rcdn-core-4.cisco.com ([173.37.93.155]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 20 Jul 2018 18:07:03 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-012.cisco.com (xch-rcd-012.cisco.com [173.37.102.22]) by rcdn-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6KI73HV013084 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:07:03 GMT Received: from xch-aln-005.cisco.com (173.36.7.15) by XCH-RCD-012.cisco.com (173.37.102.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:07:03 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-005.cisco.com ([173.36.7.15]) by XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com ([173.36.7.15]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:07:03 -0500 From: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" CC: "idr@ietf.org" , Randy Bush Thread-Topic: BGP Auto discovery - L2 liveliness?? Thread-Index: AQHUIEB01T6SLTc23kmf3spCW7QnGKSYVkMAgAASKO4= Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:07:03 +0000 Message-ID: <704FE130-4546-448A-993E-B57871B13221@cisco.com> References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.22, xch-rcd-012.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP Auto discovery - L2 liveliness?? X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:07:10 -0000 SGkgQWNlZSwNCg0KWWVzLCBpbmRlZWQuIA0KDQpDaGVlcnMsDQpSYWppdiBBc2F0aQ0KRGlzdGlu Z3Vpc2hlZCBFbmdpbmVlciwgQ2lzY28gU2VydmljZXMNCg0KDQo+IE9uIEp1bCAyMCwgMjAxOCwg YXQgMTowMiBQTSwgQWNlZSBMaW5kZW0gKGFjZWUpIDxhY2VlQGNpc2NvLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQo+ IA0KPiBIaSBSYWppdiwgDQo+IFRoaXMgZnVuY3Rpb24gaXMgZGVzY3JpYmVkIGluIHNlY3Rpb24g NiBvZiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9pZC9kcmFmdC15bWJrLWxzdnItbHNvZS0wMS50eHQu IEkgZ3Vlc3MgeW91IGFyZSBxdWVzdGlvbmVkIHdoZXRoZXIgaXQgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGEgcmVxdWly ZW1lbnQgb2YgdGhpcyBtZWNoYW5pc20uIA0KPiANCj4gVGhhbmtzLA0KPiBBY2VlIA0KPiANCj4g 77u/T24gNy8yMC8xOCwgMTE6NDMgQU0sICJSYWppdiBBc2F0aSAocmFqaXZhKSIgPHJhaml2YUBj aXNjby5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiANCj4gDQo+ICAgIENvdWxkIHNvbWVvbmUgcGxlYXNlIGV4cGxh aW4gLSBIb3cgaXMgTDIgbGl2ZWxpbmVzcyBpbXBvcnRhbnQgZm9yIGF1dG8tZGlzY292ZXJ5IGJl dHdlZW4gMiBkaXJlY3RseSBjb25uZWN0ZWQgQkdQIG5laWdoYm9ycyAocmVmZXJyaW5nIHRvIHRo ZSB0b3BvbG9neSBzaG93biB5ZXN0ZXJkYXkpPyBPciBpcyBpdCByZWFsbHkgbWVhbnQgdG8gYmVu ZWZpdCB0aGUgcGVlcmluZyByZWxhdGlvbnNoaXAgKG9uY2UgZXN0YWJsaXNoZWQpIC0gYnJpbmcg ZG93biB0aGUgcGVlciBpZiBMMiBmYWlscyBvciB2aWNlIHZlcnNhPw0KPiANCj4gICAgT3IgaXMg aXQgbWVhbnQgdG8gYmVuZWZpdCB0aGUgKHRlbmFudC9zZXJ2aWNlcykgdHJhZmZpYyAocGFzdCBi Z3AgTkxSSSBleGNoYW5nZSkgPyBMaWtlbHkgbm90LCBzaW5jZSAgKHRlbmFudC9zZXJ2aWNlcykg dHJhZmZpYyBtYXkgYmUgTDMgKG9yIE1QTFMpLCBhbmQgTDIgbGl2ZWxpbmVzcyB3b3VsZCBub3Qg YmUgc3VmZmljaWVudCAoYWZ0ZXIgYWxsLCBMMiBjYW4gYmUgd29ya2luZywgd2hpbGUgTDMgbWln aHQgbm90IG9yIE1QTFMgbWlnaHQgbm90KS4gDQo+IA0KPiAgICBDaGVlcnMsDQo+ICAgIFJhaml2 ICANCj4gDQo+IA0KPiANCg== From nobody Fri Jul 20 11:19:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32136130E16 for ; 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Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:18:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:1687:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:18:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Victor Kuarsingh Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:18:52 -0400 Message-ID: To: idr@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] Use Case Question for draft-zhu-idr-bgp-ls-path-mtu-00 X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:18:59 -0000 WG, To repeat my question / comment from today's WG session. Prefix: Operators who are likely to use SR and stack labels in a manner which may exceed traditional MTU sizes, would also have full control over their network, and would unlikely maintain lower MTUs which would necessitate the need for this extension. >From my experience, few, if any, operators would knowingly deploy/maintain networks which are not sized to allow for large MTU flows across their networks (where SR stacking would occur). Therefore my question is - do we have operators whom are asking for this change given real needs? (or is this more of a theoretical problem we need to solve)? I ask this since in the practical sense, any operator deploying SR would unlikely ignore MTU adjustments on that same network (would seem like a design oversight). regards, Victor K From nobody Fri Jul 20 11:24:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F6041310FE for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:24:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=jvknet-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KpZoKZa4fTHn for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x236.google.com (mail-oi0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 25DED130F63 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x236.google.com with SMTP id d189-v6so22931649oib.6 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:24:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jvknet-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=7MAZ521G3TScFRgMUZwCpyQXvOZbWSe7cjNQEFhIuuQ=; b=jpWxeZ6IIVYuVvNDt7zY5Bzz9v4Hb03ZFNjfEiJBqsFGDrH+ONmC4h/PeGYQhDHIrS ORVSRjkVmnMU1kKJYsSyAAtVOVSKzKJcxGKjuE4iSrpsKbvX26424k14/U8uGsVKnmhC bwWGcwswJffxTVTRjqFJnKyDxJbKDh4Km9QNeFQ2WSZgI0rZXdfk65+YuiVpTna4y0h2 NTKIJtz5tehpGCVQCe5PUad7ptsag4QeYqUOz8X4V/jzOGKn9t4yYvtiyKhp1kdoGY0c 8ep6Pfzfotwgyf2D7iYYUJM2EmIUGYZjfzHta4s0POYvjDccYcyXYBPLemN/OWvNekPy yviA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7MAZ521G3TScFRgMUZwCpyQXvOZbWSe7cjNQEFhIuuQ=; b=OmoivAgVE7eUCQyx6SwllFwGpNd2pZpRG7y+Sl10aeWd7ppikSehog9aHhkWFtf70Y tECYsNJ/7zU/F4DgXbmWY24C/HkT+XIXiK0hEUf2lfT2UJVk2iO4WdsXwqlktZY34NR+ fnjvwUUHbX9awJ2PsjO21MR6Z0roCyrIk/jVtX1+QAyvvjCxz+Fs9QyFZCeBiT9SfsAU qRJnAay4C/JZ9hfrUaIKjLuURvms54nvfWnppWKsBErsBofov3iPqG+C0bRIC9eHEOb3 FDEnUxY25xYLzt3soBXxm0EnEeNrP0sA58MrWlyHlLV636vFKUKS27ZvDE4EBfQzysUT Vfyg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlGuYi2+2fJG2BV2atcuS7xp2Xzlhbge3h6sHcrrhdbyFMtmXmFR sry/Y0we4cFH6wEnXQfhpnyhkEfuEYdov1KNXGmy0ZuivUs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpey+JIACbpsrzWp16uYjkg0ltGm4i0FsWLFPMX1hPiKuF85VU01YbYOsdVgH5d7vTjprwYRC8ELr1ao8OyzhhU= X-Received: by 2002:aca:4141:: with SMTP id o62-v6mr17920oia.24.1532111047386; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:24:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a9d:1687:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:24:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Victor Kuarsingh Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:24:06 -0400 Message-ID: To: Randy Bush Cc: Robert Raszuk , idr wg , lsvr@ietf.org, "Acee Lindem (acee)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP Auto discovery - L2 liveliness?? X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:24:19 -0000 Randy, I would also (re)stress that keeping it only to L2 detection allows it to be simple and scoped only to what we absolutely need. It seems like the intersection (standards) approach you discussed. regards, Victor K (LSVR hat off) On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:52 PM, Randy Bush wrote: >> Link Hello are proposed to detect the L2-L2.5-L3 liveness. > > no. only L2 > > you want above that, use bfd or whatever > > randy > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr From nobody Fri Jul 20 11:26:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B7CF130F63; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:26:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LVSAy448xk9L; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCF2C1310CC; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fga6E-0005mD-Fb; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:25:54 +0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:25:54 -0400 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Victor Kuarsingh Cc: Robert Raszuk , idr wg , lsvr@ietf.org, "Acee Lindem (acee)" In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/25.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP Auto discovery - L2 liveliness?? X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:26:01 -0000 hi victor, > I would also (re)stress that keeping it only to L2 detection allows it > to be simple and scoped only to what we absolutely need. It seems > like the intersection (standards) approach you discussed. 'zactly randy From nobody Fri Jul 20 11:44:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C01B130F4D for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:44:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S_UQtYRVn8dw for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x22e.google.com (mail-it0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 758F2129385 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id 16-v6so15964490itl.5 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:44:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=user-agent:date:subject:from:to:cc:message-id:thread-topic :references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=r9tBrwAjbsptlQoUZUlN50v4FyU4MBcJCOsZ8RXHMsk=; b=BM/CU2kIlvJkLGWifkJJKjzrsygUAsXoOSpg3OooYyVGVKLvWzg6x55J6w7kcD5ESu MEExEeemCLggv8EZEEtuFaH8qi/c5ny2HCgEytsCdbqYJx8sKPp6hSmlWkAbSljvkBpq ViuJ06e59kGw3NbMHSQlhrg2UU8eiAxZP8VUigWtrUJfhaYgA+loyBog+12t7AybCiOY Q4rdCJqYYMrzUFBIkEFk3E2U10JYWuj31lfRnP5XoLCQ8DOj02/BjpYI5MoApL1BT9MO vdooJUt33yd2CQcbFPARXMM36/ntnAkYhh/p7m8pUZPSd2VwKx5i0lC+j/jnqdMWre8r 63iw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:user-agent:date:subject:from:to:cc:message-id :thread-topic:references:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=r9tBrwAjbsptlQoUZUlN50v4FyU4MBcJCOsZ8RXHMsk=; b=OQoPCH+913b5TpuZ0VS84atSRiIV1fo8knJbzoFsuxmwjquHG1LT3EVTOrTh+gdgGy PjbX3afX/xLoYc2pFt1j5+djymMYj0BPxwf45dfpQRvwXn+0w6Yex6hfA9lNNZi2gCFG jYcllnCq1XvBgF6LkYtW9wG/WoGumjcb5HnmxrI+uoibYA8bCyzTU22L2389XLXXFebF ioozX6IBVXx7GqrA3ckFYI3gh2+21gbMkvjWocVkAjjRloPV+P7DvvDk5CmLKb56pxg5 9nzdeWCLM82SJVQNQ6tFX5KQJuAWbAsJy1GnkTRfugaLbeJHQMtL7rQe8RnWIRBgcdG7 +XVg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlGArT9GCNxxu+RZinuU5D4uH2rq6z9pbBJC8wuyfDLR2DFY+ZQ0 xItb353prznjLzHPptggb8OVc9gJ X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpeAdDtsWPMUj2mKQ0KWgCptWAYO8jUB/om4vw+YKRjHncCmlDPZQm+pg7YNfHc8dprxy+x2pQ== X-Received: by 2002:a24:36c5:: with SMTP id l188-v6mr2750171itl.125.1532112268867; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [31.133.132.196] ([2001:67c:370:128:d8bd:5024:b15b:240a]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b125-v6sm1289794itc.37.2018.07.20.11.44.27 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:44:27 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.f.0.180709 Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:44:26 -0400 From: Jeff Tantsura To: Jeffrey Haas , "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" CC: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" , Robert Raszuk , Susan Hares , idr wg Message-ID: <964D6A12-3D2A-4423-8974-04CB7948AEE5@gmail.com> Thread-Topic: [Idr] BGP-LS vs gRPC/gpb or... References: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> <3a8b0cff4cdf4968b950d5e43810602a@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <00ac01d42013$f5d7b910$e1872b30$@ndzh.com> <9e8263dc30654287a0875afea50349bb@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <003101d42033$a9f84cb0$fde8e610$@ndzh.com> <20180720161606.GD10999@pfrc.org> In-Reply-To: <20180720161606.GD10999@pfrc.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP-LS vs gRPC/gpb or... X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:44:33 -0000 +1 Not to forget operational side of things, BGP infra (RR's, etc) is already = been deployed and in operations, which significantly reduces cost of introdu= ction. Using BGP for resource allocation and feedback is much more complicated top= ic, there's a reason we have got configuration/applied/operational states in= configuration and management space, introducing of similar states in BGP wo= uld be.... I'm yet to come up with a name :) When it comes to streaming, especially when there's a constant stream of da= ta/updates - gRPC looks like a very good choice=20 Cheers, Jeff =EF=BB=BFOn 7/20/18, 12:16, "Idr on behalf of Jeffrey Haas" wrote: On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 04:05:55PM +0000, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) wrote: > (Changed the subjust line).. >=20 > BGP-LS was proposed for today=E2=80=99s world. >=20 > Perhaps. But Given the growing usage of more and more (streaming or = not) telemetry data from every node in a pseudo real-time manner (using pick= your favorite transport machinery - gRPC/Gpb, restconf/xml/yang, SNMP...etc= ), it is worth asking ourselves, whether BGP(-LS) is still the right vehicle= for conveying IGP (and more) related info. >=20 =20 One portion of BGP-LS was to be used by other routing mechanisms for spanning IGP domains. Putting your question a different way, "do I wan= t to use grpc to consume routing state necessary for multi IGP domain work?" =20 Not really. =20 I'm quite supportive of other access mechanisms for that data once you = have it. grpc, yang/i2rs. =20 -- Jeff =20 _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr =20 From nobody Fri Jul 20 12:53:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B2D5130F53 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:52:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no 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draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 19:53:04 -0000 --_000_C1B70CF3FBCB469CB312F6CB79D19591nokiacom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgYWxsLA0KDQpDb21tZW50IHJhaXNlZCBpbiBJRFIgbWVldGluZyByZWdhcmRpbmcgZHJhZnQt aWV0Zi1pZHItc2VnbWVudC1yb3V0aW5nLXRlLXBvbGljeToNCg0KQXNzdW1pbmcgYW4gYXJjaGl0 ZWN0dXJlIGRlcGxveW1lbnQgd2hlcmUgYSBjb250cm9sbGVyIGlzIHBlZXJlZCB0byBhIFJSIHN1 cHBvcnRpbmcgYWRkcmVzcyBmYW1pbGllcyBiZ3AtbHMgYW5kIHNyLXRlLXBvbGljaWVzLCBob3cg ZG9lcyB0aGUgY29udHJvbGxlciBrbm93IHdoaWNoIGRvd25zdHJlYW0gcm91dGVycyBpbiB0aGUg bmV0d29yayBzdXBwb3J0IEJHUCBhZHZlcnRpc2VkIFNSLVRFIFBvbGljaWVzPyBhcyB0aGlzIGlu Zm9ybWF0aW9uIChwZWVyIHNlc3Npb24gYWRkcmVzcyBmYW1pbGllcykgaXMgYmVpbmcgbWFza2Vk 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15:01:09 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) by XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:01:09 -0500 From: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" To: Jeff Tantsura , Jeffrey Haas , "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" CC: Robert Raszuk , Susan Hares , idr wg Thread-Topic: [Idr] BGP-LS vs gRPC/gpb or... 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Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:36:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a17:90a:d396:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:36:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4135c01e23924ac79dc50bf0e14ecea1@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> References: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> <3a8b0cff4cdf4968b950d5e43810602a@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <00ac01d42013$f5d7b910$e1872b30$@ndzh.com> <9e8263dc30654287a0875afea50349bb@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <003101d42033$a9f84cb0$fde8e610$@ndzh.com> <20180720161606.GD10999@pfrc.org> <964D6A12-3D2A-4423-8974-04CB7948AEE5@gmail.com> <4135c01e23924ac79dc50bf0e14ecea1@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 22:36:33 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: G2tnIAwYBM00Ie6rqgRoY6XD51o Message-ID: To: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" Cc: Jeff Tantsura , Jeffrey Haas , "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" , Susan Hares , idr wg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000063a3590571744082" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP-LS vs gRPC/gpb or... X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 20:36:38 -0000 --00000000000063a3590571744082 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So what is missing in telemetry streaming ? Why can't we push LSDB and all zoo of extensions to go out via such streaming instead of via BGP-LS ? The Interdomain aspect is highly questionable ... 1. You do not exchange your LSDB with strangers 2. If your neighboring AS in yours or your friends streaming to them from aggregation points seems pretty safe too. Maybe is time to deprecate BGP-LS ? Best, R. On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 10:01 PM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) wrote: > BGP-LS is available. Model based Telemetry is available. > SNMP is really bad, because it is pull based. > > Regards, > Jakob. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Tantsura > Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 11:44 AM > To: Jeffrey Haas ; Rajiv Asati (rajiva) > Cc: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) ; Robert Raszuk < > robert@raszuk.net>; Susan Hares ; idr wg > Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP-LS vs gRPC/gpb or... > > +1 > > Not to forget operational side of things, BGP infra (RR's, etc) is alread= y > been deployed and in operations, which significantly reduces cost of > introduction. > > Using BGP for resource allocation and feedback is much more complicated > topic, there's a reason we have got configuration/applied/operational > states in configuration and management space, introducing of similar stat= es > in BGP would be.... I'm yet to come up with a name :) > > When it comes to streaming, especially when there's a constant stream of > data/updates - gRPC looks like a very good choice > > Cheers, > Jeff > > =EF=BB=BFOn 7/20/18, 12:16, "Idr on behalf of Jeffrey Haas" on behalf of jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 04:05:55PM +0000, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) wrote: > > (Changed the subjust line).. > > > > BGP-LS was proposed for today=E2=80=99s world. > > > > Perhaps. But Given the growing usage of more and more (streaming o= r > not) telemetry data from every node in a pseudo real-time manner (using > pick your favorite transport machinery - gRPC/Gpb, restconf/xml/yang, > SNMP...etc), it is worth asking ourselves, whether BGP(-LS) is still the > right vehicle for conveying IGP (and more) related info. > > > > One portion of BGP-LS was to be used by other routing mechanisms for > spanning IGP domains. Putting your question a different way, "do I > want to > use grpc to consume routing state necessary for multi IGP domain work= ?" > > Not really. > > I'm quite supportive of other access mechanisms for that data once yo= u > have > it. grpc, yang/i2rs. > > -- Jeff > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > > > --00000000000063a3590571744082 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

So what is= missing in telemetry streaming ?=C2=A0

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif= ;font-size:small">Why can't we push LSDB and all zoo of extensions to g= o out via such streaming instead of via BGP-LS ?=C2=A0

The Interdomain aspect is highly questiona= ble ...=C2=A0

1. You d= o not exchange your LSDB with strangers=C2=A0
2. If= your neighboring AS in yours or your friends streaming to them from aggreg= ation points seems pretty safe too.=C2=A0

Maybe is time to deprecate BGP-LS ?=C2=A0

Best,
R.


= On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 10:01 PM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) &l= t;jheitz@cisco.com> wrote:
BGP-LS is available. = Model based Telemetry is available.
SNMP is really bad, because it is pull based.

Regards,
Jakob.


-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant= .ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 11:44 AM
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org&g= t;; Rajiv Asati (rajiva) <rajiva@cis= co.com>
Cc: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cis= co.com>; Robert Raszuk <robe= rt@raszuk.net>; Susan Hares <s= hares@ndzh.com>; idr wg <idr@ietf= .org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP-LS vs gRPC/gpb or...

+1

Not to forget operational side of things, BGP infra (RR's, etc) is alre= ady been deployed and in operations, which significantly reduces cost of in= troduction.

Using BGP for resource allocation and feedback is much more complicated top= ic, there's a reason we have got configuration/applied/operational= states in configuration and management space, introducing of similar state= s in BGP would be.... I'm yet to come up with a name :)

When it comes to streaming, especially when there's a constant stream o= f data/updates - gRPC looks like a very good choice

Cheers,
Jeff

=EF=BB=BFOn 7/20/18, 12:16, "Idr on behalf of Jeffrey Haas" <<= a href=3D"mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org">idr-bounces@ietf.org on behalf o= f jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 04:05:55PM +0000, Rajiv Asati (rajiva= ) wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > (Changed the subjust line)..
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > BGP-LS was proposed for today=E2=80=99s world.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Perhaps. But Given the growing usage of=C2=A0 more and m= ore (streaming or not) telemetry data from every node in a pseudo real-time= manner (using pick your favorite transport machinery - gRPC/Gpb, restconf/= xml/yang, SNMP...etc), it is worth asking ourselves, whether BGP(-LS) is st= ill the right vehicle for conveying IGP (and more) related info.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 One portion of BGP-LS was to be used by other routing mechani= sms for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 spanning IGP domains.=C2=A0 Putting your question a different= way, "do I want to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 use grpc to consume routing state necessary for multi IGP dom= ain work?"

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Not really.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I'm quite supportive of other access mechanisms for that = data once you have
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 it.=C2=A0 grpc, yang/i2rs.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- Jeff

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 _______________________________________________
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Idr mailing list
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Idr@ietf.org
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/id= r




--00000000000063a3590571744082-- From nobody Fri Jul 20 14:12:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85B7C130DFA for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:12:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oe4mWfDW8wHh for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 70EA8130DC6 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fgchW-0006Qa-Nv; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 21:12:34 +0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:12:34 -0400 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" Cc: idr wg In-Reply-To: <4135c01e23924ac79dc50bf0e14ecea1@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> References: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> <3a8b0cff4cdf4968b950d5e43810602a@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <00ac01d42013$f5d7b910$e1872b30$@ndzh.com> <9e8263dc30654287a0875afea50349bb@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <003101d42033$a9f84cb0$fde8e610$@ndzh.com> <20180720161606.GD10999@pfrc.org> <964D6A12-3D2A-4423-8974-04CB7948AEE5@gmail.com> <4135c01e23924ac79dc50bf0e14ecea1@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/25.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP-LS vs gRPC/gpb or... X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 21:12:40 -0000 > SNMP is really bad, because it is pull based. it may be horrible, but your customers have very large infrastructure to pull, digest, and manange those data. randy From nobody Fri Jul 20 14:14:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D9F4130DC9 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:14:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bzNz2h6VOrZ2 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D1B87130DFA for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fgcjY-0006R9-Bb; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 21:14:40 +0000 Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:14:40 -0400 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Robert Raszuk Cc: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" , idr wg , Susan Hares In-Reply-To: References: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> <3a8b0cff4cdf4968b950d5e43810602a@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <00ac01d42013$f5d7b910$e1872b30$@ndzh.com> <9e8263dc30654287a0875afea50349bb@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <003101d42033$a9f84cb0$fde8e610$@ndzh.com> <20180720161606.GD10999@pfrc.org> <964D6A12-3D2A-4423-8974-04CB7948AEE5@gmail.com> <4135c01e23924ac79dc50bf0e14ecea1@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/25.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP-LS vs gRPC/gpb or... X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 21:14:46 -0000 > Maybe is time to deprecate BGP-LS ? gawd no! we would have to invent another layer to use to generate 432 interent-drafts randy From nobody Fri Jul 20 14:40:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C9EE130E30 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:39:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tavEQsGhaWAd for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:39:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x529.google.com (mail-pg1-x529.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::529]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62F67130E08 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:39:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x529.google.com with SMTP id p23-v6so7864038pgv.13 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:39:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=6gow0oyj6phMlp5Odl9E+rdQ+nGkXlhOlsx2smHH0gE=; b=jmuKp2czc9U6OU3Mrsz2A+EKV0yZ8Car7WEP19B3Ih/ZkOTt3wmi5oPxDRo77ODH49 F//uKZzD5OlnLMx8AkQkH03uiWnHiu+Swq2+3IEVT2AjX3GQK8o46ZoK45qkm5zqWifV g94uH1ozRb4l/f5nTPFL6+Ukw5C00BlCyQ8CCJGcZ2UnX199pC9IHWkyuahRoeXFe9YX 18OIOr1h54/8Z1N7Mo2L6El1NY4BAjmZvX47bouHwH+aW7rtvuKe07OY9wHl9vrFf0m9 r/rAKJkEcRlUVl2o3j8QfWKKg2ArVTLMrHueF6HTYJc7q8ArU/bMLzF1sAsmaj/jJNk2 Fz4Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=6gow0oyj6phMlp5Odl9E+rdQ+nGkXlhOlsx2smHH0gE=; b=kavvivQLgV+07NOX1cz6a1Sc3kQnqz6gpVj+UQQCpo3Evlu8kaAwGzsPA6gO1ob1KU sj4J+93+K4DinhAJ7AqhmTcu1HMtr5XtDJsR0nMSjEkfs2+VBUFWtRo1b57gNq7oh1ba +r1ZCaoZHZ60aaOtp2vADXht8mJ54y77abP/nbO5EfTQnTXTeSYoI1/Y3fiAJdYROGqp 0FyT3KvhMqU89V+h50i3PQJns9QoqWCNxp1+jAphIvaUms1Cf7/1CT3C+Sfwk9oAT+lD vvZaFWlLvioNzKLI3gFBJZIDJJqu/o8jxEC1/KksCIOSP7SWWp3LfX8vB2PCJ9zanlAd eYrA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlG3dK9F4aEi7J3EtZ2hVANvdmtuphGnXYoBGDxjXUsXhdKCBLz6 Ys3EPRwq+iCLftqSeMcvMWlTbudi X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfg7UorBQTpIQX1L6S6elcGOXR7RJX2JesKOQcZCUFaD5Ug7tjaUvg03Dw2EisyNlIloIP8+g== X-Received: by 2002:a65:6203:: with SMTP id d3-v6mr3535644pgv.420.1532122795784; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:39:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.255.255.132] ([207.164.22.11]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g15-v6sm6991984pfg.98.2018.07.20.14.39.54 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Jeff Tantsura X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15F79) In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:39:53 -0400 Cc: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" , idr wg Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <2F0EDE2D-1725-40FF-AE09-220D9279BBCE@gmail.com> References: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> <3a8b0cff4cdf4968b950d5e43810602a@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <00ac01d42013$f5d7b910$e1872b30$@ndzh.com> <9e8263dc30654287a0875afea50349bb@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <003101d42033$a9f84cb0$fde8e610$@ndzh.com> <20180720161606.GD10999@pfrc.org> <964D6A12-3D2A-4423-8974-04CB7948AEE5@gmail.com> <4135c01e23924ac79dc50bf0e14ecea1@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> To: Randy Bush Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP-LS vs gRPC/gpb or... X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 21:39:59 -0000 IAB was quite clear on the direction wrt network management. Regards, Jeff On Jul 20, 2018, at 17:12, Randy Bush wrote: >> SNMP is really bad, because it is pull based. > > it may be horrible, but your customers have very large infrastructure to > pull, digest, and manange those data. > > randy > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr From nobody Fri Jul 20 15:24:06 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EEDE13110B for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:24:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fuQjIkwmJYwb for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:24:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x42d.google.com (mail-pf1-x42d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0BF1D13100F for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:24:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x42d.google.com with SMTP id k19-v6so129032pfi.1 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:24:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=Erbg+lPayCQkxmHl+P9Qb/FRBLkf+dsMGwHIYU4fGsk=; b=TbqxQSha7yn4xag7tCHnlh8uRAsI+SRiRFaIyVKqOa3O+i8iL4W32iBcg92bTxOOFc bn84RSoH1C/q7wM3R3EHUbDAzasidsfPUiqeOZzqnOE/rc3pfFiyVQ96wqkeJVlr9Z9/ 0raNMsf0C7W3W/PzWDvSNGaxJecEn5fGXCMwVP5rfx8ftyJ/thLn76KYXl+TsYPJZKEh BbC8NFAV7VBSHfFu4NhJBCohVIlPelgbAxK3w3K5niV1cr0/Kqj3i9E7liCDNv3G4jTz cGO7+8Owu8rcnAcTvDXiJwtg1yju03YJIicaLtp1ZfOjRtXu8qQs7V4HjGQBQWrYltgY 0ONw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Erbg+lPayCQkxmHl+P9Qb/FRBLkf+dsMGwHIYU4fGsk=; b=Vdpm2iTYodDcKHI5NqYfjqounXrCeF5sII5QsyNan2cMXFw4zn5IV5/Rg+IPSZW7Pm eqga2qBwwaAaMVfYJPQXCashrtdemwhNzNTPk142+f9F0UliEBAz4+JnanT8Lb+7ISE3 QuE75wZWibUMhhzIZkLH9Spwx+4S5ubRSdAHbAISuQ3g9Nb/KE1yQzgf9cJo7wA097y1 NHcds4JggONVGC8jMWutlooeF3oEVgd6i0Q/O2XzW70N8A/UcoINcc0to2lwQ9Npmeip KyhOBpsjwg++5qb28f/X2SA5+oo4IE2TnIe7rfAng8dEMQ7Ot0nb/JcS7TA/5lI1NUan Q/cA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlELo5NbvVswWogJUHDUIDfbzJ3Ww6nEQUynZyi81mEnulBBI0O2 3ModnePD6MlfLlKtgTTA9/3zh13pqguvqxO/eqGskw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpe7OfvplE6/mv6cdFF/VBf0Le6I6TSINF+oCkE8Z+EPzB121tAEDj3/EqD5TT9L4WxLdRBmrCWLXj4+eBlJseo= X-Received: by 2002:a65:5641:: with SMTP id m1-v6mr3736036pgs.246.1532125442394; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:24:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a17:90a:d396:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:24:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2F0EDE2D-1725-40FF-AE09-220D9279BBCE@gmail.com> References: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> <3a8b0cff4cdf4968b950d5e43810602a@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <00ac01d42013$f5d7b910$e1872b30$@ndzh.com> <9e8263dc30654287a0875afea50349bb@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <003101d42033$a9f84cb0$fde8e610$@ndzh.com> <20180720161606.GD10999@pfrc.org> <964D6A12-3D2A-4423-8974-04CB7948AEE5@gmail.com> <4135c01e23924ac79dc50bf0e14ecea1@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <2F0EDE2D-1725-40FF-AE09-220D9279BBCE@gmail.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 00:24:01 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ts4zYlGlAxVuQ-sFpPhkiuenXzE Message-ID: To: Jeff Tantsura Cc: Randy Bush , "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" , idr wg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bed056057175c0ab" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP-LS vs gRPC/gpb or... X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 22:24:05 -0000 --000000000000bed056057175c0ab Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Jeff, Could you share: * What is the IAB's definition of network management - does monitoring IGP which now has fallen under BGP-LS is in scope of it ? * Is there any pointer to document on what is IAB's quite clear position on the above ? Thx, R. On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 11:39 PM, Jeff Tantsura wrote: > IAB was quite clear on the direction wrt network management. > > Regards, > Jeff > > On Jul 20, 2018, at 17:12, Randy Bush wrote: > > >> SNMP is really bad, because it is pull based. > > > > it may be horrible, but your customers have very large infrastructure to > > pull, digest, and manange those data. > > > > randy > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Idr mailing list > > Idr@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > --000000000000bed056057175c0ab Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jeff,

Could you share:

* What is the IAB's definition of network management - d= oes monitoring IGP which now has fallen under BGP-LS is in scope of it ?=C2= =A0

* Is there any poi= nter to document on what is IAB's quite clear position on the above ?

Thx,
R.


On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 11:39 PM, Jeff Tant= sura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
IAB was quite clear on the direction wrt network manageme= nt.

Regards,
Jeff

On Jul 20, 2018, at 17:12, Randy Bush <= randy@psg.com> wrote:

>> SNMP is really bad, because it is pull based.
>
> it may be horrible, but your customers have very large infrastructure = to
> pull, digest, and manange those data.
>
> randy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Idr mailing list
> Idr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

--000000000000bed056057175c0ab-- From nobody Fri Jul 20 18:02:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B0FB130DDC for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:02:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OAigAiRsUurU for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x429.google.com (mail-wr1-x429.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::429]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 12393130DF4 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:02:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x429.google.com with SMTP id h9-v6so12746506wro.3 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:02:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=TOwX7M3yDFfrpf3R5z6PCjpRZ5qxF332UkXtesWDBDU=; b=tf31vl+cDlfatyfemD8ruBcuZI6F3EwjRhE8As7+1pFPSLerA8KEyGO8o2l18S2NDA VzyKzGsrkAwwb1vt5LILyPyw2AovKtyw8oAsTo1PdwYRTCLeg/e7YcqSX61EuSDccmCk U8tYzDuJcaHfd7/DDOghCfAxdioZvxSCenF4jlZfOYddUncFuwvUOqW3ObbHhTl2LWAg s2AdHHJnhzhEUfWcTx+VRj/eYSXq7hKZtOBMU0356cjK6d7C/6bOuyLJzNr9Rgaik272 ylYONf9Hj0o0FEAe6M7YOZjvX4uvRFms4k8WvuTtXxjD3NOJ/aj0rpo1tv3LM9LAVtO+ s9Bw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TOwX7M3yDFfrpf3R5z6PCjpRZ5qxF332UkXtesWDBDU=; b=ScWQ8Kzaiw5OBDZzvD4qsU5EjeBYjHavOIdPJ2+R5EERBLdxghPKCwJEy0F6xcPsvg L9SrbKDiUrQyxhbPIxYK3HCGfKzoyYxFVl74GOEssSduANHCgLyqX8BEX1KOeDIgvN2I 0ic1f0VssfG9fZaE64YgQpuFQgvEQ2FkkwzGl65PIpXDYPPRGEPzwSm5AIl2xg67C+4b hH0y3osZlCtA5819TXE+/9PIykM4cdC8meVZk99pNB00N24OxrH33C2VHM/hUkYl+gPm 4G0m9bGvBCZ8ugsTg5tUlASHaV+olmdlYqvWBAwJB4MTfhbsa59fxaWxhcseAid2fyib FaTQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlGSVX5FxvWg/3pt04GRCjXSAFprSRp1UgrBN7gINGt1NFazxoVW /h7kECQDVnnssWTQxLxuaJ0F0pI2kUO3nHn68bM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcYP0d7QjQzNWrwH5sE2l5nlmvIFcSnEcQoorVu5Xmr7ns1hNpq5CeOFD43iQkon8iB1PX7CK/VkQrOS4uWkRE= X-Received: by 2002:adf:f50e:: with SMTP id q14-v6mr2604666wro.241.1532134946616; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:02:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> <3a8b0cff4cdf4968b950d5e43810602a@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <7422_1532096146_5B51EE91_7422_187_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A47AF91DE@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <20474_1532100577_5B51FFE1_20474_202_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A47AF963B@OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <20180720160328.GC10999@pfrc.org> In-Reply-To: <20180720160328.GC10999@pfrc.org> From: Brian Dickson Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:02:14 -0700 Message-ID: To: Jeffrey Haas Cc: Bruno Decraene , IETF IDR , Robert Raszuk Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003db859057177f702" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 01:02:33 -0000 --0000000000003db859057177f702 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Apologies for the top-reply; I'll try to keep things as brief as possible. A lot can be learned from the transition from 16-bit ASNs to 32-bit ASNs. (It "helped" in that circumstance that it was absolutely necessary, and drove implementation/adoption.) What is there to learn? AS4 vs AS2 required backward compatibility, while avoiding downgrading all AS4 speakers, and breaking AS4 loop detection. The compatibility mechanism will continue to be required until the last AS2-only speaker is eliminated from the Internet. Moving to variable-length communities, of any sort, will similarly require compatibility modes, in exactly the same way, for exactly the same duration. What this means to me is the following: 1. Until wide (near-universal) implementation, and wide (significant) deployment of variable-length community speakers, there will continue to be an absolute requirement that new community types be added the current way (fixed-length). 2. Anyone who feels the long-term move to variable-length communities, is urged to standardize, and/or implement, and/or deploy, variable-length communities. 3. The market necessarily will dictate when (if ever) it is appropriate to switch new communities to variable-length implementations only. 4. Until that happens, under no circumstances is it going to be acceptable from the operator community, to block the standardization, implementation, and operation, of fixed-size communities. 5. If variable-length happens, there will still be a need for legacy support for already-deployed fixed-size, until sufficient "critical mass" is reached, meaning there may be a (long) period of compatibility mode between variable-length speakers where they pass both variable-length and legacy fixed-length communities for exactly the same community types. 6. (It may be worth looking into the DNS community vs email community, and the TXT vs SPF debacle to comprehend both the "camps" mentality, and the danger of trying to use a unified field and overloading it to death. For those interested in sausage making and its outcomes, just look at the TXT records for any domain name, for how messy things can get.) 7. Most of the concern on total size of communities due to multiple types being used simultaneously, is probably misplaced, IMHO, as it is very likely that only a subset of community types are ever appropriate to use on a given update message. Someone with a need for "large" pretty much, by definition, won't be using "standard" for all of their updates to all peers (including "large" speakers), with the possible exception of WKC that don't yet have "large" counterparts. Ditto IPv6 vs IPv4, and the need for an IPv8 type is probably a long way off. 8. The point of this is, there is no need to block either group's efforts. Indeed, both camps should (must) continue, until both have working deployed implementations. I'm happy to explain privately to anyone who doesn't agree or understand, and I think we may have reached the dead-horse flogging point. I hope this is a positive contribution, and apologies if this wasn't as brief as it should have been. Brian On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 9:03 AM Jeffrey Haas wrote: > On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 03:29:36PM +0000, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote: > > That's the same argument: you are seeking local optimization based on > your position in the ecosystem. > > But there are other positions. > > Thanks for acknowledging that your plan is to continue requesting > additional fixed length community attributes forever. > > Indeed. > > Contents of xxc draft: > type:subtype:v6:6 > type:subtype:v4:18 > type:subtype:as4:18 > type:evpn subtype 4:as4:esi (10):MBZ(8) > type:evpn subtype 5:as4:esi (10):evi-rt (4): MBZ(4) > type:evpn subtype 6:as4:A+space(1):D-ID(1):service-id(16) (zero filled) > > If the goal was the first three generics were intended to have similar > local-admin lengths, 6 would be the size instead of 6,18,18. (Large > community argument: uniformity.) > > The evpn objects outright say they're reserving/wasting space. > > I already get nag mail from operators about "how many of X can I put in the > packet". I'd really like to keep things compact. > > -- Jeff > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > --0000000000003db859057177f702 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Apologies for the top-reply; I'll try to keep things a= s brief as possible.

A lot can be learned from the trans= ition from 16-bit ASNs to 32-bit ASNs. (It "helped" in that circu= mstance that it was absolutely necessary, and drove implementation/adoption= .)

What is there to learn? AS4 vs AS2 required bac= kward compatibility, while avoiding downgrading all AS4 speakers, and break= ing AS4 loop detection. The compatibility mechanism will continue to be req= uired until the last AS2-only speaker is eliminated from the Internet.

Moving to variable-length communities, of any sort, wi= ll similarly require compatibility modes, in exactly the same way, for exac= tly the same duration.

What this means to me is th= e following:
  1. Until wide (near-universal) implementation, = and wide (significant) deployment of variable-length community speakers, th= ere will continue to be an absolute requirement that new community types be= added the current way (fixed-length).
  2. Anyone who feels the long-te= rm move to variable-length communities, is urged to standardize, and/or imp= lement, and/or deploy, variable-length communities.
  3. The market nece= ssarily will dictate when (if ever) it is appropriate to switch new communi= ties to variable-length implementations only.
  4. Until that happens, u= nder no circumstances is it going to be acceptable from the operator commun= ity, to block the standardization, implementation, and operation, of fixed-= size communities.
  5. If variable-length happens, there will still be a= need for legacy support for already-deployed fixed-size, until sufficient = "critical mass" is reached, meaning there may be a (long) period = of compatibility mode between variable-length speakers where they pass both= variable-length and legacy fixed-length communities for exactly the same c= ommunity types.
  6. (It may be worth looking into the DNS community vs = email community, and the TXT vs SPF debacle to comprehend both the "ca= mps" mentality, and the danger of trying to use a unified field and ov= erloading it to death. For those interested in sausage making and its outco= mes, just look at the TXT records for any domain name, for how messy things= can get.)
  7. Most of the concern on total size of communities due to = multiple types being used simultaneously, is probably misplaced, IMHO, as i= t is very likely that only a subset of community types are ever appropriate= to use on a given update message. Someone with a need for "large"= ; pretty much, by definition, won't be using "standard" for a= ll of their updates to all peers (including "large" speakers), wi= th the possible exception of WKC that don't yet have "large" = counterparts. Ditto IPv6 vs IPv4, and the need for an IPv8 type is probably= a long way off.
  8. The point of this is, there is no need to block ei= ther group's efforts. Indeed, both camps should (must) continue, until = both have working deployed implementations. I'm happy to explain privat= ely to anyone who doesn't agree or understand, and I think we may have = reached the dead-horse flogging point.
I hope this is a posit= ive contribution, and apologies if this wasn't as brief as it should ha= ve been.

Brian

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 9:03 AM Jeffrey Haas = <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:
On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 03:29:36PM +0000, = bruno.decrae= ne@orange.com wrote:
> That's the same argument: you are seeking local optimization based= on your position in the ecosystem.
> But there are other positions.
> Thanks for acknowledging that your plan is to continue requesting addi= tional fixed length community attributes forever.

Indeed.

Contents of xxc draft:
type:subtype:v6:6
type:subtype:v4:18
type:subtype:as4:18
type:evpn subtype 4:as4:esi (10):MBZ(8)
type:evpn subtype 5:as4:esi (10):evi-rt (4): MBZ(4)
type:evpn subtype 6:as4:A+space(1):D-ID(1):service-id(16) (zero filled)

If the goal was the first three generics were intended to have similar
local-admin lengths, 6 would be the size instead of 6,18,18. (Large
community argument: uniformity.)

The evpn objects outright say they're reserving/wasting space.

I already get nag mail from operators about "how many of X can I put i= n the
packet".=C2=A0 I'd really like to keep things compact.

-- Jeff

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
--0000000000003db859057177f702-- From nobody Fri Jul 20 18:24:56 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8B39130E84 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:24:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WoqHNT8_0esa for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:24:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1771A130DDC for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:24:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=366; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1532136293; x=1533345893; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=LZvjirEHwQrX5pg1Lt0a1X2gGgGoleM86Si+Mbiheow=; b=U3Y+KwmGCcOWLEca66mSELlSg31afgAAw0o4Ou+oeyFkpVtWMSLx4BQ8 2q85+Z7sLetdhASO7IwebDXzt/55uz049vLssFEe0Sj5MEr/Qmb26o6Yx N7J1N+5Yx3iJWCmTZgxqrojdPuF3mqrHXLXWQjL9rHdmwFdd9E4+qeXLP 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DoAQAHilJb/5xdJa1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYNNgWIojAKMMoFoJINlkVeBeguEbAKDDCE0GAECAQECAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?CbSiFNwEEATo/EAIBCDYQMiUCBA4FgyCBeAitdoRdhXSJAoFXP4E4DIJehHu?= =?us-ascii?q?DMoIkAplsCQKPLg6BKQGMOpF6AhEUgSQdOIFScBVlAYI+kFNvjSEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,382,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="145591318" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 21 Jul 2018 01:24:52 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-015.cisco.com (xch-aln-015.cisco.com [173.36.7.25]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6L1Oq5m020633 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 21 Jul 2018 01:24:52 GMT Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com (173.36.7.24) by XCH-ALN-015.cisco.com (173.36.7.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 20:24:51 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) by XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 20:24:51 -0500 From: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" To: Randy Bush CC: idr wg Thread-Topic: [Idr] BGP-LS vs gRPC/gpb or... Thread-Index: AQHUIEOTxQFKuZxp+EmZ31QZNVqX46SYnTYAgAApcgD//8ES4IAAaFEA///yrH4= Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 01:24:51 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> <3a8b0cff4cdf4968b950d5e43810602a@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <00ac01d42013$f5d7b910$e1872b30$@ndzh.com> <9e8263dc30654287a0875afea50349bb@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <003101d42033$a9f84cb0$fde8e610$@ndzh.com> <20180720161606.GD10999@pfrc.org> <964D6A12-3D2A-4423-8974-04CB7948AEE5@gmail.com> <4135c01e23924ac79dc50bf0e14ecea1@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.25, xch-aln-015.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-5.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP-LS vs gRPC/gpb or... X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 01:24:55 -0000 And they open large horrible bugs against it, which is why telemetry was in= vented.=20 Regards, Jakob. On Jul 20, 2018, at 5:12 PM, Randy Bush wrote: >> SNMP is really bad, because it is pull based. >=20 > it may be horrible, but your customers have very large infrastructure to > pull, digest, and manange those data. >=20 > randy From nobody Fri Jul 20 18:40:35 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABF07130DF2; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:40:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.611 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.611 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rv6cZvO6dELY; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E5B1130DE2; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049462.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049462.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w6KDjRwc046655; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 09:52:15 -0400 Received: from alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp7.sbc.com [144.160.229.24]) by m0049462.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 2kbfk79uff-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 20 Jul 2018 09:52:14 -0400 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w6KDqD0i001725; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 09:52:14 -0400 Received: from zlp27127.vci.att.com (zlp27127.vci.att.com [135.66.87.31]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w6KDq9UU001592; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 09:52:09 -0400 Received: from zlp27127.vci.att.com (zlp27127.vci.att.com [127.0.0.1]) by zlp27127.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTP id 45B804048B3A; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:52:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from MISOUT7MSGHUBAD.ITServices.sbc.com (unknown [130.9.129.148]) by zlp27127.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTPS id 2F9A84048B38; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:52:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from MISOUT7MSGUSRCD.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.4.37]) by MISOUT7MSGHUBAD.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.9.129.148]) with mapi id 14.03.0408.000; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 09:52:08 -0400 From: "UTTARO, JAMES" To: Susan Hares , =?utf-8?B?J+W+kOWwj+iZjijkuYnlhYgpJw==?= , "'Idr'" , "'idr'" CC: "'draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery'" Thread-Topic: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Thread-Index: AQHUIBthCP5NxAf1wEWLUzytVgpGPqSYIV/g Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:52:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com>, <001201d41f44$b65ef2a0$231cd7e0$@ndzh.com> <001801d4201b$50989610$f1c9c230$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: <001801d4201b$50989610$f1c9c230$@ndzh.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.10.212.105] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B17A6910EEDD1F45980687268941550F367849B7MISOUT7MSGUSRCD_" MIME-Version: 1.0 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[207.115.96.130]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b1-v6sm1072013ioh.43.2018.07.20.19.38.02 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 20 Jul 2018 19:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-07EE770A-9E28-445D-944C-6DB5969A5B6E Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Gaurav Dawra X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15F79) In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 22:38:01 -0400 Cc: Susan Hares , =?utf-8?B?IuW+kOWwj+iZjijkuYnlhYgpIg==?= , Idr , idr , draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <001201d41f44$b65ef2a0$231cd7e0$@ndzh.com> <001801d4201b$50989610$f1c9c230$@ndzh.com> To: "UTTARO, JAMES" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 02:38:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail-07EE770A-9E28-445D-944C-6DB5969A5B6E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 20, 2018, at 9:52 AM, UTTARO, JAMES wrote: >=20 > +1 > =20 > Jim Uttaro > =20 > From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares > Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 7:18 AM > To: '=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88)' ; 'Idr' ; 'idr' > Cc: 'draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery' > Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscover= y > =20 > Xiaohu: > =20 > Our next step is to gather requirements for the IDR neighbor discovery fro= m the WG. We would especially be interested in feedback on requirements fro= m operators of data centers. If you know of an operators of medium data cen= ters who could send requirements to the IDR chairs or the IDR list, it would= be helpful. > =20 > Cheerily, Susan Hares > =20 > From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ???(??) > Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 7:12 AM > To: Idr; idr > Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery > Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscover= y > =20 > =20 > Hi Sue, > =20 > Thanks for launching the WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodi= scovery. > =20 > Hi all, > =20 > There has been one implementation developed by a switch vendor. Furthermor= e at least two additional implementations from other vendors are under const= ruction. If any of you have any concrete and technical concerns on this mech= anism, please feel free to tell us and we would like to verify your concerns= on the implementation and then give you feedbacks. > =20 > Best regards, > Xiaohu > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > From:Susan Hares > Send Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8819=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B) 1= 7:59 > To:idr > Cc:draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery > Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery= > =20 > This closes the 2 week adoption for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery > (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16). > =20 > The WG chairs conclude on my original questions that: > 1) There is WG interest to have an auto-discovery mechanism > that will work for BGP peers in Data Centers > =20 > 2) There is some WG interest having this work > in other deployments. > =20 > 3) There is no consensus on the mechanisms > (BGP hellos or other mechanisms)=20 > Or requirements for the mechanisms. > =20 > 4) There is WG consensus and AD Consensus that we should > collaborate with LSVR. One mechanism for both would > be good, but it needs to fit the requirements set > by the WG. =20 > =20 > There is no consensus on adoption this draft. > =20 > During today=E2=80=99s IDR session (18:10-19:10), we will have a > discussion on the requirements for the auto-discovery mechanisms. > We will start by reviewing the LSVR requirement set. > =20 > If our discussions today do not come to a clear conclusion, > the chairs are willing to sponsor an interim on the topic. > =20 > Susan Hares and John Scudder. > =20 > From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares > Sent: Monday, July 2, 2018 1:09 PM > To: idr@ietf.org > Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org > Subject: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery > =20 > Greetings: > =20 > This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscov= ery (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16).=20 > =20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/ > =20 > The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response to t= his email. I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors to re= spond by July 7th.=20 > =20 > The WG should consider the following: > 1) Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within D= ata Centers? > 2) Does this mechanism work for other deployments? > =20 > 3) If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message?=20 > Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc). > =20 > 4) Does this interact with any of the LSVR work? > =20 > I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through som= e of the WG LC for other drafts. We decided to wait until some of those dis= cussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call. > =20 > =20 > Susan Hares > =20 > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr --Apple-Mail-07EE770A-9E28-445D-944C-6DB5969A5B6E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1

Se= nt from my iPhone

On Jul 20, 2018, at 9:52 AM, UTTARO, JAMES &= lt;ju1738@att.com> wrote:

+1

 

Jim Uttaro

 

From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 7:18 AM
To: '=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88<= span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">)' <xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.co= m>; 'Idr' <idr-bounces@iet= f.org>; 'idr' <idr@ietf.org>= ;
Cc: 'draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery' <draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery= @ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodis= covery

 

Xiaohu:

 

Our next step is to gat= her requirements for the IDR neighbor discovery from the WG.  We would e= specially be interested in feedback on requirements from operators of data c= enters.  If you know of an operators of medium data centers who could send requirements to the IDR chairs or the= IDR list, it would be helpful.

 

Cheerily, Susan Hares <= o:p>

 

From: Idr [mailto:idr-b= ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ???(??)
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 7:12 AM
To: Idr; idr
Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery
Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodis= covery

 

 

Hi Sue,

 

Thanks for launching the WG adoption call f= or draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery= .

 

Hi all,

 

There has been one implementation develope= d by a switch vendor. Furthermore at least two additional implementations fr= om other vendors are under construction. If any of you have any concrete and technical concerns on this mechanism,= please feel free to tell us and we would like to verify your conc= erns on the implementation and then give you feedbacks.

 

Best regards,

Xiaohu

------------------------------------------= ------------------------

From:Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>

Send Time:2018=E5=B9= =B47=E6=9C=8819<= /span>=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B) 17:59

To:idr <idr@ietf.org>

Cc:draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery <= ;draft-xu-id= r-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org>

Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for dra= ft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

 

This closes the 2 week adoption for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autod= iscovery

(July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16).

 

=

The WG chairs conclude on my original questions that:

1)&nb= sp; The= re is WG interest to have an auto-discovery mechanism

that will work for BGP peers in Data Centers

 

2)&nb= sp; The= re is some WG  interest having this work

in other deployments.

 

3)&nb= sp; The= re is no consensus on the mechanisms

(BGP hellos or other mechanisms)

Or requirements for the mechanisms.

 

=

4)&nb= sp; The= re is WG consensus and AD Consensus that we should

collaborate with LSVR. One mechanism for both would

be good, but it needs to fit the requirements set=

by the WG.  

 

=

There is no consensus on adoption this draft.

 

=

During today=E2=80=99s IDR session (18:10-19:10), we will have a=

discussion on the requirements for the auto-discovery mechanism= s.

We will start by reviewing the LSVR requirement set.

 

=

If our discussions today do not come to a clear conclusion,

the chairs are willing to sponsor an interim on the topic.

 

=

Susan Hares and John Scudder.

 

From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: Monday, July 2, 2018 1:09 PM
To: idr@ietf.org
Cc: d= raft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org
Subject: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscove= ry

 <= /p>

Greetings:

 <= /p>

This begins a 2 week WG a= doption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 1= 6). 

 <= /p>

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autod= iscovery/

 <= /p>

The authors of this draft= should send their IPR statements in response to this email.  I hope th= e authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors to respond by July 7t= h. 

 <= /p>

The WG should consider th= e following:

1)      Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery me= chanism for peers within Data Centers?

2)      Does this mechanism work for other deploy= ments?

 <= /span>

3)      If so, should be passed in BGP Hello mess= age? 

Or should it be a p= art of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc).

 <= /p>

4)      Does this interact with any of the LSVR w= ork?

 <= /p>

I want to thank the autho= rs for their patience while we sorted through some of the WG LC for other dr= afts.  We decided to wait until some of those discussion were cleared u= p prior to starting a new WG Adoption call.

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

Susan Hares

 

____________________= ___________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis= tinfo/idr
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Thread-Index: AQHUIPbTLIg1wcnCNECKhTyu2xaYuQ== Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 13:29:18 +0000 Message-ID: <1E638585-D2BC-472A-B854-E90660D19ED8@juniper.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.14] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BN3PR0501MB1299; 6:I6LxV+/hnbuSquGL++tRWiPHsy4HWju39YmW598fWUbidQ/N69nIx9H4R4HbOEh5gEcmsng5DC7FJXj4Ibgn3YlFAzDWx9fSs4EdqU75dnDCXVMlLm0UNg097i87u/5/amVqaVvmbiLDW336ctBXaDzNZWPZmBF8atBJaaPT53fAJut3JZnY/bk6ei4vm0urTtc2wKvnAkS+ka5lWVGqQy6zPyqEn+Gyvh2Ir2ynPVcY9tp+4Etk1z8ZwkgAaREb4lrTyevBzjwSNBNNuf+vQwy5KOdETraTOdz7RfKg4rIRf5C4Ev8CZ9CMBu0zX5IrodZ6U7jD4T9HfzYTHYTppfJgarCGTBpC9ARU6rYV5694duPtIGIAl1h050Ecki8kwA4a4MwkprE3XLtUD30irwOrG0o3QCQFJCFe/MeEG0U9idoSQHnkIfvbCSfdmGi4P4MicOPeQ2n9JlKROXmUIg==; 5:ViWR/u/jT8WoVpAO9IuC81G3pdC8gtm+SLTinF32jL+Tz0RsesyYvNU9XsWk/EhIGLCcVWi7+Jfxw5v0nAarQAXEBh1L8YITaYtX1PzMTaud4rZUJl4QLRmWsyR0nGrrfl1hwN+hRbCdY59Jq1Ceaag0JubyzlpFolEn7kQyFZ4=; 7:mp/5dH48A+MGRcGl9YW6QIUTvanOgC9MAdDsJZb1veaVU/Mvco0xgbIClgIkmc7kL5GlcgQPPHy+0jxYPq3IRhk0UqaLke9wbIhkvTWxFk7iC/xbME1nhWor63zv5zZOZeTDd7tXkckx9X27VXG6MAskNGiI/LfEF0rXhrci8jBdxgCYvNULijAjX28UkjiF+FFvsd1D/NtlxTsZoPTTIm7m7SejIlmNBbigalINxHwRABdMEzgHhRVC5j0Wopns x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 6468f5c1-c8e6-4ed5-39f5-08d5ef0df64e x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(7020095)(4652040)(8989117)(5600073)(711020)(4618075)(4534165)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990107)(2017052603328)(7153060)(7193020); SRVR:BN3PR0501MB1299; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN3PR0501MB1299: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(8211001083)(6040522)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(10201501046)(93006095)(93001095)(3002001)(3231311)(944501410)(52105095)(6055026)(149027)(150027)(6041310)(201703131423095)(201702281528075)(20161123555045)(201703061421075)(201703061406153)(20161123560045)(20161123564045)(20161123562045)(20161123558120)(6072148)(201708071742011)(7699016); SRVR:BN3PR0501MB1299; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BN3PR0501MB1299; x-forefront-prvs: 074040B844 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(136003)(346002)(366004)(376002)(39860400002)(396003)(189003)(199004)(53754006)(486006)(5660300001)(97736004)(66066001)(256004)(6436002)(3480700004)(6486002)(81156014)(68736007)(6506007)(106356001)(26005)(102836004)(83716003)(81166006)(5250100002)(8676002)(25786009)(186003)(82746002)(2900100001)(2906002)(478600001)(3846002)(6116002)(4326008)(450100002)(33656002)(305945005)(36756003)(316002)(99286004)(53936002)(7736002)(2616005)(8936002)(6916009)(105586002)(476003)(14454004)(6512007)(86362001)(42262002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BN3PR0501MB1299; H:BN3PR0501MB1507.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: VrwNxSqrmJ1oTeR1LuIYLtaKdJmfKf8qjcJbI9/nEdIgqxH61y0/2CedwA3hHaRvaaQDpIFSqNE6ER4v9jvjnL+j55rcdVDfsQSg32v6Qmcy0Ynt/k0Q6YU8UqAFkm6JM+IIUeS26oozz12E44WzlkaIKdYbmPTu10JZHTaC4L9AyohAMm1GlLRzYt0IYg/uWyzaMSZoFbTKjpKAqPaM/x5rcaLbO2UuNfRFmBo12FuamIFahFGG53C/bfqD1DBAVtwOa2k+5gA1Z7KXXD3gWV+3WUvewErLRJMRpnfXOO3+0MzWigWHSfzKM73CaIQmdqAINvnL3IJQe+hVZwIJS1OJ9vLvoiE0LiYMbn/8T4I= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <56597146B5F70D4084A68F9529475E20@namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6468f5c1-c8e6-4ed5-39f5-08d5ef0df64e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 21 Jul 2018 13:29:18.7009 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN3PR0501MB1299 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-07-21_05:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1806210000 definitions=main-1807210153 Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] two-session IDR format feedback? X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 13:29:28 -0000 Hi All, Our split meeting this week was an experiment. When Sue and I came up with = the idea we'd noticed that we tend to attract topics in clusters (e.g., BGP= -LS drafts; SR drafts) and we wondered if everyone really wanted to partici= pate in all of those. One of our goals in splitting the meeting was to find= out if folks might consult the agenda and decide to attend one session or = the other but not both, based on agenda content. Based on a rough guesstima= te of turnout, I'm not confident that happened, although "Friday" is a conf= ounding factor. We would be interested in the WG's feedback on what you liked, or didn't li= ke, about the split session (and if you can find a way to leave "it was Fri= day" out of your consideration it would probably be helpful, because that w= asn't part of the plan nor something we would deliberately repeat).=20 One thing we noticed and hadn't necessarily expected was that there seemed = to us to be more energy in the room both sessions. One packed 2.5 hour sess= ion often seems like too much to allow people to maintain engagement by the= time we end. One negative from our perspective was that managing two short= er packed agendas instead of one longer one, affords the chairs less flexib= ility. If a talk in session 1 runs short, it doesn't help us at all with se= ssion 2. Your comments are welcome either on-list or unicast to the chairs, about wh= ether you think this is worth repeating or whether you like the 2.5 hour si= ngle session format better. Thanks, --John= From nobody Sat Jul 21 06:43:03 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D0B3130D7A for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 06:43:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=instituut-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R16KLr5y00yb for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 06:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x536.google.com (mail-ed1-x536.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::536]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 764A0124C04 for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 06:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x536.google.com with SMTP id s24-v6so11924232edr.8 for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 06:42:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=instituut-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=CaipyYQTPXnt4LN5wj7/vUFamOnxwKQXWm0fnj96RAA=; b=UU1m9iqeHYvYRSm+LY7Hdm0FDzb2FdB8c78Y56pYOPJrySTkxaqKA8Qq/Wc68Gjixr fGZX9eaZUaxziMsTwgeCuUlRNLk0hh3+TVOtl7gcKz15LILoXl2UW80QEQXPqjsDeKu2 hVTWsWinjtEJApL+nzTiuGRm9fVIK+PE0gaWFvQuajCDVtIrtF1d3NsnpNruqgaIfvvp WTbrgXKVakHoL01iU8+7sHD/lm7cPYy/AFNmBoaRPZFSmCdwE1KMFY58sv+FgRbsrQeY g4DYgarxUJBAeVxnbvHOY3cv9XTHq8mevGHnEA8fp9RpIICFXcvvmdjUtJUDSrazYX4A xlug== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=CaipyYQTPXnt4LN5wj7/vUFamOnxwKQXWm0fnj96RAA=; b=keBTvKHWR78F0i1OPnICQeaQfPAT/S7G/0cJ61KTA6bwWSmDRjlZ9uN3BtJ9qM+hMb IHsp303XT/0c854dkc/vhZP8V+2ceYc5jwNkfGUI7T+6ifGS2/tE3YaX6ZwxwgC1D4bu 1cLgts6UOsJ6RiHlbYQak7RzX+soTSU9jgp4AVc9BfLLsVi4mRJEalFSmYneQ+7I4Ay+ ITSQr3wbYLNq8h+4zB8iQqfNKP/GOGhv3mrHX6DrBL7IxcYsg4ehB9KbRXgKyQMI0pzu FXzaiiJQm+zf8vfQjHm6fJjiijyv4V2aLnBcRYngZ9QCpcB0LVSV7vtvvATs4rv9l668 G4jg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlE1kA2Hwe8MgjmjTYYKS0SZHotQAIHgI6NGu2yJledi2ZWy0Vzj VQA/Phv9Kt2BpBafPZCl5dGF5g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpfzo6aHNlMyTLa+tAgg96F7mQVrKKBNv5FAPVqdCnokikYIlxqvOtQ3XR6mmA+TKI3JtK7c8w== X-Received: by 2002:a50:8b25:: with SMTP id l34-v6mr6406154edl.265.1532180577788; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 06:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vurt.meerval.net (vurt.meerval.net. [192.147.168.22]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i63-v6sm2173603edi.16.2018.07.21.06.42.54 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Sat, 21 Jul 2018 06:42:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (vurt.meerval.net [local]) by vurt.meerval.net (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPA id 87032769; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 13:42:54 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 13:42:53 +0000 From: Job Snijders To: John Scudder Cc: idr wg , "idr-chairs@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20180721134253.GA37801@vurt.meerval.net> References: <1E638585-D2BC-472A-B854-E90660D19ED8@juniper.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1E638585-D2BC-472A-B854-E90660D19ED8@juniper.net> X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] two-session IDR format feedback? X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 13:43:02 -0000 Dear John & Sue, On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 01:29:18PM +0000, John Scudder wrote: > Your comments are welcome either on-list or unicast to the chairs, > about whether you think this is worth repeating or whether you like > the 2.5 hour single session format better. I liked the format. I think the 2 session approach helps counter potential for audience fatigue, but also has other advantages such as easier to get a beverage or biobreak. In corporate context a 2,5 hour meeting is rarely ideal either. Good idea! Kind regards, Job From nobody Sat Jul 21 11:46:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57C3B130E15; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 11:46:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L5iLGbsCah_j; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 11:46:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-x236.google.com (mail-pl0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4921130E0A; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 11:46:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-x236.google.com with SMTP id f6-v6so6532506plo.1; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 11:46:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=f4ZybD8v7Z81EKEnm+QiRcmz2octvion6paBFrfe3LY=; b=ATU2nrrUFxEKf6E14ooKG22pDu/YGvxv/I4tBrfGCTf2sc/J0Poymtg5LeIWGqlqff ZT6NnZAftWekaHtRx+v2L0vmhYt0NXGCO3lcwSAs1c+MgHfgKndIkIYOs9MfwD6tiQDm uczCpzJQTDGDjAAbo9b3qcJSzW028+LRO7nYzCuklKA18l+FNB5FpnBWrx5uqkWRoQ/Q Qwh9wlCTAwWm41fG16TjQXgSPfpoqfx3WfIMnKOKOzyrP1dMvbeycsyWlI6jglJGdI3j +1eHOXTDbuLgMMKCxRf9WnJztljKJji++IgEhu1Dnh0oMIbEaioct4cP24Qm1VzmdBDH C51A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=f4ZybD8v7Z81EKEnm+QiRcmz2octvion6paBFrfe3LY=; b=NON4IKU1+//YMCsMYy57w5xZ01QKdPK3QVkGQ+bG+LL2UKDYazkDQiUP3S8V1Zrtgc 0ZKyIWjSRwAnIpowSF+yXomZxF3/cUiNF/IOO+elAiql8jWYGUymkXYFD3vdl1vVcE32 l7jXs7aCvVrfjmWea+sVM2SWKCYf5MP67ywBbgKRFYEMVLmr2DALjhasyFjEZrlyzIDV RrGC17F2h8mnj8Y/WRAYT25iUeci+t2GXaZMDcVUXbxFC4iGUhCTM8/rg89sMDHq5jd4 SDNGlNmhUofaiuiMWGl6eXjO7nKfainut0AJyR1/3tbbJjC/hW7o346LcuIfe5aFyTNu 3dhQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlEVOVtSoCY9F9bxQTWdwN6uEeylcYpSdfw0IRuZdkq92PgJaC4O FK42u0zyMIMuGa5aCeOIWkX9C//f X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcCAPp0WX9UD13Td91HkF0icmaEYkjie1NmyW35sCKIQRGMNHDdVPw9nmRHZIm1OliAydvNWw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:4324:: with SMTP id i33-v6mr6719559pld.43.1532198790129; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 11:46:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-73-189-13-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.189.13.44]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n9-v6sm10533553pfg.21.2018.07.21.11.46.28 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 21 Jul 2018 11:46:29 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Jeff Tantsura X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15F79) In-Reply-To: <20180721134253.GA37801@vurt.meerval.net> Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 11:46:28 -0700 Cc: John Scudder , idr wg , "idr-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1E638585-D2BC-472A-B854-E90660D19ED8@juniper.net> <20180721134253.GA37801@vurt.meerval.net> To: Job Snijders Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] two-session IDR format feedback? X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 18:46:34 -0000 +1 Job! Having had 2 RTGWG sessions for number of years - it gives you more flexibil= ity, ability to accommodate late minute requests that seem of importance and= reshuffle times in case of conflicts. Regards, Jeff > On Jul 21, 2018, at 06:42, Job Snijders wrote: >=20 > Dear John & Sue, >=20 >> On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 01:29:18PM +0000, John Scudder wrote: >> Your comments are welcome either on-list or unicast to the chairs, >> about whether you think this is worth repeating or whether you like >> the 2.5 hour single session format better. >=20 > I liked the format. I think the 2 session approach helps counter > potential for audience fatigue, but also has other advantages such as > easier to get a beverage or biobreak. In corporate context a 2,5 hour > meeting is rarely ideal either. Good idea! >=20 > Kind regards, >=20 > Job >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr From nobody Sat Jul 21 11:53:12 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9E38130E0A; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 11:53:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=icloud.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YHflhLlMUi5Z; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 11:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mr11p00im-asmtp004.me.com (mr11p00im-asmtp004.me.com [17.110.69.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8FFD3130E9A; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 11:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from process-dkim-sign-daemon.mr11p00im-asmtp004.me.com by mr11p00im-asmtp004.me.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.1.2.20170607 64bit (built Jun 7 2017)) id <0PC800900C26FQ00@mr11p00im-asmtp004.me.com>; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 18:53:08 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=icloud.com; s=04042017; t=1532199187; bh=R+w3Fg/2YRpaiopQTE61Gju0RURVnLZ1VhhwXQERX3M=; h=Date:From:To:Message-id:Subject:MIME-version:Content-type; b=rRq4ecp72kZqGSE98VpKbm4LXzBoLfCPAAF6emRa5odpM+WJ6Or6rPUOIFdil4JKA M0k80KgcokeHbTWWttHbnk4rid5rg6yhKKuoXDQqVsgutnVtSkbGqLMDSeLOLRhfHr XmOdX3bHW5BNA8JDmrWqeeELK5qQNWsz04bHbaUjq93Nxq2XDN5Ugrz/xJDGipvi2R 7PiLQRe/yf5Ztn7tDIQxFf52W8rrXk8U+RatmHMoViWB8vvelapi7ebwTLTacLsl9O PWi8Pt+GwsJbrvvB3+PhuAxdCOYT0C4pOeT7WiE+7cJxdydFCzT4UXpE7A90GMCqSW 4xACZus3AbYng== Received: from icloud.com ([127.0.0.1]) by mr11p00im-asmtp004.me.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.1.2.20170607 64bit (built Jun 7 2017)) with ESMTPSA id <0PC8008NWCGBGU30@mr11p00im-asmtp004.me.com>; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 18:53:05 +0000 (GMT) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:,, definitions=2018-07-21_07:,, signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1807210216 Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 18:52:59 +0000 (UTC) From: guntervandeveldecc@icloud.com To: Job Snijders , Jeff Tantsura Cc: idr-chairs@ietf.org, idr wg Message-id: <246E99BEEE5D0AE6.936717e5-22cd-4c6a-9d29-c31337afaf1f@mail.outlook.com> In-reply-to: References: <1E638585-D2BC-472A-B854-E90660D19ED8@juniper.net> <20180721134253.GA37801@vurt.meerval.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1011_307398706.1532199179445" X-Mailer: Outlook for iOS and Android Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] two-session IDR format feedback? X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 18:53:11 -0000 ------=_Part_1011_307398706.1532199179445 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, the format was good... shorter slots do tend to get a slot on Friday as most shorter slots are available then. Its not reslly sn issue i find as it can be accomodated in advance in peoples agenda... G/ Gunter Van de Velde On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 8:46 PM +0200, "Jeff Tantsura" wrote: +1 Job! Having had 2 RTGWG sessions for number of years - it gives you more flexibility, ability to accommodate late minute requests that seem of importance and reshuffle times in case of conflicts. Regards, Jeff > On Jul 21, 2018, at 06:42, Job Snijders wrote: > > Dear John & Sue, > >> On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 01:29:18PM +0000, John Scudder wrote: >> Your comments are welcome either on-list or unicast to the chairs, >> about whether you think this is worth repeating or whether you like >> the 2.5 hour single session format better. > > I liked the format. I think the 2 session approach helps counter > potential for audience fatigue, but also has other advantages such as > easier to get a beverage or biobreak. In corporate context a 2,5 hour > meeting is rarely ideal either. Good idea! > > Kind regards, > > Job > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr ------=_Part_1011_307398706.1532199179445 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Yes, the format was good... shorter slots do tend to get a slot on Friday as most shorter slots are available then. Its not reslly sn issue i find as it can be accomodated in advance in peoples agenda...

G/

Gunter Van de Velde




On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 8:46 PM +0200, "Jeff Tantsura" <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

+1 Job!
Having had 2 RTGWG sessions for number of years - it gives you more flexibility, ability to accommodate late minute requests that seem of importance and reshuffle times in case of conflicts.

Regards,
Jeff

> On Jul 21, 2018, at 06:42, Job Snijders  wrote:
> 
> Dear John & Sue,
> 
>> On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 01:29:18PM +0000, John Scudder wrote:
>> Your comments are welcome either on-list or unicast to the chairs,
>> about whether you think this is worth repeating or whether you like
>> the 2.5 hour single session format better.
> 
> I liked the format. I think the 2 session approach helps counter
> potential for audience fatigue, but also has other advantages such as
> easier to get a beverage or biobreak. In corporate context a 2,5 hour
> meeting is rarely ideal either. Good idea!
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Job
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Idr mailing list
> Idr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
------=_Part_1011_307398706.1532199179445-- From nobody Sat Jul 21 13:56:42 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C94312DD85 for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 13:56:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ukp7P6l4W9jI for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 13:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [195.30.115.67]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F8F21292F1 for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 13:56:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: idr@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7403B41B4D for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 22:56:35 +0200 (CEST) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62920406DC; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 22:56:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 538C598614; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 22:56:35 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 22:56:35 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" Cc: Randy Bush , idr wg Message-ID: <20180721205635.GS11393@Space.Net> References: <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <00ac01d42013$f5d7b910$e1872b30$@ndzh.com> <9e8263dc30654287a0875afea50349bb@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <003101d42033$a9f84cb0$fde8e610$@ndzh.com> <20180720161606.GD10999@pfrc.org> <964D6A12-3D2A-4423-8974-04CB7948AEE5@gmail.com> <4135c01e23924ac79dc50bf0e14ecea1@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.0 (2018-05-17) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP-LS vs gRPC/gpb or... X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 20:56:41 -0000 Hi, On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 01:24:51AM +0000, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) wrote: > And they open large horrible bugs against it, which is why telemetry was invented. And these large horrible bugs disappear over night by wrapping existing information in a new encoding and a new transport? Impressive :) Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Sat Jul 21 19:00:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76034130E21 for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 19:00:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c2JGsDAc3Tqb for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 19:00:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.86.76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5971C130DF4 for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 19:00:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1894; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1532224847; x=1533434447; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=mrmtx9yT5kxZ8KasWujsuXcVOub9HZc/DInRtRYZdA4=; b=OJg1EcqWV+SlROAJRjm+HtJtqQJvdtuYVKGeYL3U3PdKcscnmw97k3On 7S3Q+xe3t2janjU07F/0uX7loZajo5t/7r6C0iBVeeBBiCcyP10z5Ga7G GLaK4tmlcNYoLrBpQdu+fInjZ58TPSRxUC+7dZcLEcBID+zp2L1rRKhxE Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0C3AgCm5FNb/4YNJK1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYNNgWIoCpgqggyVPYF6C4RsAoMMITYWAQIBAQIBAQJtKIU?= =?us-ascii?q?2AQEBBDo/DAQCAQgRBAEBAR4QMh0IAgQOBQiFGK94ik6JAoFXP4ERghN+ilM?= =?us-ascii?q?CmWwJAo8mjXqRegIRFIEkIwExJoEscBWDJIIlF44Xb40jgRsBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,387,1526342400"; d="scan'208";a="209096856" Received: from alln-core-12.cisco.com ([173.36.13.134]) by rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 22 Jul 2018 02:00:46 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-014.cisco.com (xch-rcd-014.cisco.com [173.37.102.24]) by alln-core-12.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6M20kaw005298 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 22 Jul 2018 02:00:46 GMT Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com (173.36.7.24) by XCH-RCD-014.cisco.com (173.37.102.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 21:00:45 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) by XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 21:00:45 -0500 From: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" To: Gert Doering CC: Randy Bush , idr wg Thread-Topic: [Idr] BGP-LS vs gRPC/gpb or... Thread-Index: AQHUIEOTxQFKuZxp+EmZ31QZNVqX46SYnTYAgAApcgD//8ES4IAAaFEA///yrH6AAZsygP///K4w Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 02:00:45 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <00ac01d42013$f5d7b910$e1872b30$@ndzh.com> <9e8263dc30654287a0875afea50349bb@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <003101d42033$a9f84cb0$fde8e610$@ndzh.com> <20180720161606.GD10999@pfrc.org> <964D6A12-3D2A-4423-8974-04CB7948AEE5@gmail.com> <4135c01e23924ac79dc50bf0e14ecea1@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <20180721205635.GS11393@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20180721205635.GS11393@Space.Net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.86.253.228] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.24, xch-rcd-014.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-12.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP-LS vs gRPC/gpb or... X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 02:00:50 -0000 Yes. SNMP is pull based. That means the management system has to ask for the rou= ting table. The router sends the whole table, even if nothing or very little has change= d. A huge waste of resources. It makes things horribly slow. SNMP is udp based, so packets drop. In many cases, the OID structure of SNMP is a transpose of the way the data= is stored in the router, making data retrieval very inefficient. SNMP has no ability to snapshot a set of data: each item is independent of = the next. Statistics change as they are being sent. One statistic will be i= nconsistent with the next one, because it was sampled at a different time. Streaming telemetry has choices of transport and push/pull. The best way is push mode and a tcp based transport, like GRPC. Routes are only sent when they change. Unchanged data is not sent. Frequently changing statistics may be better retrieved using the pull model= . Regards, Jakob. -----Original Message----- From: Gert Doering =20 Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2018 1:57 PM To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) Cc: Randy Bush ; idr wg Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP-LS vs gRPC/gpb or... Hi, On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 01:24:51AM +0000, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) wrote: > And they open large horrible bugs against it, which is why telemetry was = invented.=20 And these large horrible bugs disappear over night by wrapping existing information in a new encoding and a new transport? Impressive :) Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Em= mer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Sat Jul 21 19:54:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49C9D130E2C; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 19:54:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.019 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.019 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=alibaba-inc.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 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by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6M36uX4027261 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 22 Jul 2018 03:06:56 GMT Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com (173.36.7.24) by XCH-RCD-015.cisco.com (173.37.102.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 22:06:55 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) by XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Sat, 21 Jul 2018 22:06:55 -0500 From: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" To: =?utf-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?= , "Lsvr@ietf.org" , "idr@ietf.org" , Randy Bush Thread-Topic: [Idr] Why L2 liveness needed for BGP-SPF Thread-Index: AQHUIWdrxEj5j5SS20yzOldIi2VD46SajO+w Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 03:06:55 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.86.253.228] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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22 Jul 2018 04:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B11E130EEF; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 04:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fhCdJ-0004GB-Mn; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 11:34:37 +0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 04:34:37 -0700 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" Cc: =?GB2312?B?ItDs0KG7oijS5c/IKSI=?= , "Lsvr@ietf.org" , "idr@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/25.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Why L2 liveness needed for BGP-SPF X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 11:34:45 -0000 > L2 can be Ethernet, Token Ring, ATM, Frame Relay, PPP, SLIP, MTP2 and > others that may be invented in the future. it could be tin cans and a string. but out here in the internet, it's ethernet. there are tiny vestiges of sonet, which you seem to have forgotten; but no one is gonna run bgp-spf over them. it is a mono- culture; ethernet won. randy From nobody Sun Jul 22 07:09:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81C07130F30 for ; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 07:09:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, 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h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6ErYiZMfGlTVaWpCWo9z1f3MxY9OwFzWRraNArI/bYs=; b=YsVvy6Z+VHPWAe8aaslRmRvwn+ycElvqNrVVntCV8X9Q4mN3VnBWqKg26/RffByRJE LGdhzDDZuJ+H+0TQOL1HdmIKMnUxoHBjdfgQk/3cGnsFquqn7t5ASOyTOkIBhRJx/3YX Ob17TTywYJqo2MwO94q5+otdxlLO+V0ao2e7mQZVHWylWA1gxPtpfoYEvA7zvOgJuu6+ AG5qsoQ6mMd+X1bXD0MrS2cUVqQy3Lho+Rfj3gnBW+PlmpuXJvDPDfBYwKuYD3ZTol6c ibgV6RyqhbMY03DAWaIzXUw6L3DJK+YZGE1r1tzzjHKa+KOO3IlGzqUcd/RSOw3j9oX6 G/kA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6ErYiZMfGlTVaWpCWo9z1f3MxY9OwFzWRraNArI/bYs=; b=gCjKg849iSKDU5hBFhrWkZTiX+RhVKxhGtEnqWXZpdDCOBXx5fiBAi6lV0zqB6QHcP mvY9skHa3abI7dc4AmsH5dOG9ohgznpQzc4lXXf+FIFALofCrN9U0hgoWbqETF1xOfy3 QG9cHsSIjAZRpyP85cdtMBa0Hr+Mt98gEMeu+SdnBq2xu8XzFvxT20kiJcg1r5s5lWtg QQi+ghQr6oMfUnMd5oyF1esrOgDwzSkKvD+UENQMUmBZYd+d4HeAnjUbsZj54wkzgGpE 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--0000000000006b7b1d057197136e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 7:35 AM Randy Bush wrote: > > L2 can be Ethernet, Token Ring, ATM, Frame Relay, PPP, SLIP, MTP2 and > > others that may be invented in the future. > > it could be tin cans and a string. but out here in the internet, it's > ethernet. there are tiny vestiges of sonet, which you seem to have > forgotten; but no one is gonna run bgp-spf over them. it is a mono- > culture; ethernet won. > At this point, the current applicability for BGP-SPF is Data Center / CLOS networks as described in the applicability document ( https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-keyupate-lsvr-applicability-02) There is some texts around future use of this protocol (SP backbone), but again not the focus of our current work. That said, as noted by Randy, these topologies are currently Ethernet (at least in the cases we are aware of). Regards, Victor K > randy > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > --0000000000006b7b1d057197136e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun,= Jul 22, 2018 at 7:35 AM Randy Bush <ra= ndy@psg.com> wrote:
> L2 = can be Ethernet, Token Ring, ATM, Frame Relay, PPP, SLIP, MTP2 and
> others that may be invented in the future.

it could be tin cans and a string.=C2=A0 but out here in the internet, it&#= 39;s
ethernet.=C2=A0 there are tiny vestiges of sonet, which you seem to have forgotten; but no one is gonna run bgp-spf over them.=C2=A0 it is a mono- culture; ethernet won.


At this point, t= he current applicability for BGP-SPF is Data Center / CLOS networks as desc= ribed in the applicability document (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ke= yupate-lsvr-applicability-02)

There is some texts around future use of this protocol (SP backbo= ne), but again not the focus of our current work.=C2=A0

That said, as noted by Randy, these topolog= ies are currently Ethernet (at least in the cases we are aware of).

Regards,

Victor K




randy

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--0000000000006b7b1d057197136e-- From nobody Sun Jul 22 07:44:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AFA0129C6B; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 07:44:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9ErSZxY_t5e9; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 07:43:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x143.google.com (mail-lf1-x143.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::143]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E543D126CC7; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 07:43:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x143.google.com with SMTP id y200-v6so4685245lfd.7; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 07:43:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=QOU+nkHAS4Ho8LJdJh4m3W8vg0UbsO2mnokBVNLRA+Q=; b=d7jT9ccgOI9OsKjWvvx4xjuwPA+1RoUDSLYOrnCwRJ9vWrh3+l19F+bGBcYHvsgxLf d9IwPG/f0kjDm5muBIQHyxJGettpBPKzdWTEG7jK9yGnlyYUaOkcvH0wPgZwmo+TTpqo YOfqa5zNi3JwwSf7bpvxzerEp9nbiCegsYqcpqGxgvYaCMIQMX1h0cM3j3HQYCoHnnVp jDHlsNXUvUXM0hr9l2U3SXZYmSCu4EliU0QEUfBn8XkEf3E5IefA0Gk3xvqjWlVEWsYe 63CibUnUZLrl3/LXYlzper5YzIY6Y6RQ9VNNz8dmnOZKWNxWqkWlQdQvP94Kf2cVfF1z zphg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=QOU+nkHAS4Ho8LJdJh4m3W8vg0UbsO2mnokBVNLRA+Q=; b=noX9qlDLQV9Ps5dWxilg5WLMbW1gMwYPyZA+7JHiHjri9X0iuBfCIFrrxnEAYNod7X sgxXepeUc9y4b4GOiewjU7P8bClfEK37Nc1LixboGg9oQJ604XFQxvs4nim0WMVdUmWC 1sWEMOuEAPffSg30+zafW6eXubJjUWkNVftnITUmR3toSe4AnMR5VHIUoWox00VT6r0H tQH4uXY7e2OFVoaaFRfm2v7uj8hCkfBqrGw02R1kxJkqkDF6l6boJI2Y/E2R1l9ZGWJ6 WOZT+Zb9CnN4/A17Mtm/WWXyEPhjeBCFF64snxgfql5hIGH/f0PnCfRP6WrkgvdXwRMX vXXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlFtLvjsapAio1Y8Wyt2KMZbGGvu5EL1eERS/4nAW44JdGeOb3Rf L5IK5r6lJp/goN/p7JE/+ztN/RhyVE4cXhqGY/s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpeQBuUhIFi1mfZc/qymzugf8EB5f3IVT46RySKPtcFDbqTU0n08NRTleerLo6+JNModa7Zf0LV1W3IXoJgstf0= X-Received: by 2002:a19:ea5c:: with SMTP id i89-v6mr5251538lfh.19.1532270637086; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 07:43:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 09:43:44 -0500 Message-ID: To: Victor Kuarsingh Cc: Randy Bush , idr@ietf.org, "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" , "Lsvr@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000005fdaa0571978f39" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] [Lsvr] Why L2 liveness needed for BGP-SPF X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 14:44:02 -0000 --00000000000005fdaa0571978f39 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, hope an easy question you'll help me with. Liveness as path continuity check or as connectivity verification. Regards, Greg On Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 09:09 Victor Kuarsingh wrote: > > > On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 7:35 AM Randy Bush wrote: > >> > L2 can be Ethernet, Token Ring, ATM, Frame Relay, PPP, SLIP, MTP2 and >> > others that may be invented in the future. >> >> it could be tin cans and a string. but out here in the internet, it's >> ethernet. there are tiny vestiges of sonet, which you seem to have >> forgotten; but no one is gonna run bgp-spf over them. it is a mono- >> culture; ethernet won. > > >> > At this point, the current applicability for BGP-SPF is Data Center / CLOS > networks as described in the applicability document ( > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-keyupate-lsvr-applicability-02) > > There is some texts around future use of this protocol (SP backbone), but > again not the focus of our current work. > > That said, as noted by Randy, these topologies are currently Ethernet (at > least in the cases we are aware of). > > Regards, > > Victor K > > > > >> randy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Idr mailing list >> Idr@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr >> > _______________________________________________ > Lsvr mailing list > Lsvr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr > --00000000000005fdaa0571978f39 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear All,=C2=A0
hope an easy question yo= u'll help me with. Liveness as path continuity check or as connectivity= verification.=C2=A0

Reg= ards,=C2=A0
Greg=C2=A0

On Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 09:09 Victor Kuarsingh = <victor@jvknet.com> wrote:


On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 7:35 AM Randy Bus= h <randy@psg.com> wrote:
> = L2 can be Ethernet, Token Ring, ATM, Frame Relay, PPP, SLIP, MTP2 and
> others that may be invented in the future.

it could be tin cans and a string.=C2=A0 but out here in the internet, it&#= 39;s
ethernet.=C2=A0 there are tiny vestiges of sonet, which you seem to have forgotten; but no one is gonna run bgp-spf over them.=C2=A0 it is a mono- culture; ethernet won.


At this point, t= he current applicability for BGP-SPF is Data Center / CLOS networks as desc= ribed in the applicability document (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-keyupate-lsvr-applicability-02)

There is some texts around f= uture use of this protocol (SP backbone), but again not the focus of our cu= rrent work.=C2=A0

That s= aid, as noted by Randy, these topologies are currently Ethernet (at least i= n the cases we are aware of).

Regards,

Victor K<= /div>




randy

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ie= tf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
_______________________________________________
Lsvr mailing list
Lsvr@= ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr<= br>
--00000000000005fdaa0571978f39-- From nobody Sun Jul 22 07:55:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E2B1130E42; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 07:55:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gkbKoLDUa8TK; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 07:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x541.google.com (mail-pg1-x541.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::541]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 251F0126CC7; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 07:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x541.google.com with SMTP id s7-v6so6968408pgv.3; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 07:55:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=HYpdab3IGIGtjADm/5pnYgc7msNU/nB0t0YoBBVrmA0=; b=Eux+SsmQsQV0MiEGaM/8X+qRmQTWD/rchGK6hlb1mjePpQ+D/shLjdNuadJNEZjnmG M7p9s3wk1WGe7C5ovmc8sW3fSSgwltpbaTMNSyYPsZ5Ok3nfBrOsWP1bsRN0JMiW+sz7 3uFclcK+gtp9Av9pduGehbPt4iR24JEsohzfrljS0JRjB89kL/mVEB8nUBUnoKi6o0X9 MBftoLsPiHldic+g6Aot3ZTDgjNvDoFQyjvSTs/amHN4lE/7KaPRUNoWn6ec7+G2+W8W /fxcLGOiddI23wq3K2w1jc2uyPSj1SaifMyQFx9Ba+WEOqeb16o1J7ahJMl+ckxacCze ADLA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=HYpdab3IGIGtjADm/5pnYgc7msNU/nB0t0YoBBVrmA0=; b=pfTS6fcwUqVjBe3Se17Vtx+B08DdXRUdweKWWrZ3r02gH864zvgoD0yC/95qcjk+iw 8KK1mC5ePkxu/3h/3d9C0TDRpM37kWRKpOqxuM2Yi62QKrTL68yE1ALYVl3e/pEKZSRR kPL2W+XRiX46olujqE3wQQGvlqWwHDRWZuvI7UJUe/AakL2Fdy/P2n1pARN3j29dtf6m wz3caUeYyRuK5mYXCc5TY6MPLUIMn/ayKRP20RCsftcztNRqtK8gQxsNq+mcPpT+CDHV MVwkTBXhGPEhZIpnSYSvTsom84m2vGqjGI1Q4Ft6LPRuxyoqtC15ZJu7AC+zv5UCTS9m 1SOw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlGOcmf5+a7zp04KGl3MuMrsJqW62Jjk/p5qAlHh3yVmKlkyzDt6 VBlLj8suUI+JxWLAZqMEQdnNCyRhsvSyErCPnMFWbMwU X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpdjALAlEmTmvsrtwu9y3SWGcVQYADxJWcVKiRabqBA/uCs+xwSsv6PxUylN0q1j8tc1GfgvnBqGGqttsrgOU2s= X-Received: by 2002:a65:4107:: with SMTP id w7-v6mr8581348pgp.302.1532271336445; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 07:55:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a17:90a:d396:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 07:55:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 16:55:35 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Y4zhQZCzB2SPr_FBQXNs5Q3wLaw Message-ID: To: Greg Mirsky Cc: Victor Kuarsingh , Randy Bush , idr wg , "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" , "Lsvr@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b55d4d057197b8ef" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] [Lsvr] Why L2 liveness needed for BGP-SPF X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 14:55:39 -0000 --000000000000b55d4d057197b8ef Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Is IETF a new forum for Ethernet specification ? I was always under slight impression that this is rather IEEE Ethernet WG ... http://www.ieee802.org/3/ On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 4:43 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote: > Dear All, > hope an easy question you'll help me with. Liveness as path continuity > check or as connectivity verification. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 09:09 Victor Kuarsingh wrote: > >> >> >> On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 7:35 AM Randy Bush wrote: >> >>> > L2 can be Ethernet, Token Ring, ATM, Frame Relay, PPP, SLIP, MTP2 and >>> > others that may be invented in the future. >>> >>> it could be tin cans and a string. but out here in the internet, it's >>> ethernet. there are tiny vestiges of sonet, which you seem to have >>> forgotten; but no one is gonna run bgp-spf over them. it is a mono- >>> culture; ethernet won. >> >> >>> >> At this point, the current applicability for BGP-SPF is Data Center / >> CLOS networks as described in the applicability document ( >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-keyupate-lsvr-applicability-02) >> >> There is some texts around future use of this protocol (SP backbone), but >> again not the focus of our current work. >> >> That said, as noted by Randy, these topologies are currently Ethernet (at >> least in the cases we are aware of). >> >> Regards, >> >> Victor K >> >> >> >> >>> randy >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Idr mailing list >>> Idr@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Lsvr mailing list >> Lsvr@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr >> > > _______________________________________________ > Lsvr mailing list > Lsvr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lsvr > > --000000000000b55d4d057197b8ef Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Is IETF a = new forum for Ethernet specification ? I was always under slight impression= that this is rather IEEE Ethernet WG ...=C2=A0
http://www.ieee802.org/3/

On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 4:43 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com= > wrote:
= Dear All,=C2=A0
hope an easy question you'll help me w= ith. Liveness as path continuity check or as connectivity verification.=C2= =A0

Regards,=C2=A0
=
Greg=C2=A0

On Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 09:09 Victor Kuar= singh <victor@jvk= net.com> wrote:
=


<= div dir=3D"ltr">On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 7:35 AM Randy Bush <randy@psg.com= > wrote:
> L2 can be Ethernet= , Token Ring, ATM, Frame Relay, PPP, SLIP, MTP2 and
> others that may be invented in the future.

it could be tin cans and a string.=C2=A0 but out here in the internet, it&#= 39;s
ethernet.=C2=A0 there are tiny vestiges of sonet, which you seem to have forgotten; but no one is gonna run bgp-spf over them.=C2=A0 it is a mono- culture; ethernet won.


At this point, t= he current applicability for BGP-SPF is Data Center / CLOS networks as desc= ribed in the applicability document (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-keyupate-lsvr-applicability-02= )

There is some text= s around future use of this protocol (SP backbone), but again not the focus= of our current work.=C2=A0

That said, as noted by Randy, these topologies are currently Ethernet (= at least in the cases we are aware of).

Regards,

Victor K




randy

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--000000000000b55d4d057197b8ef-- From nobody Sun Jul 22 08:42:41 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42AAE126F72; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 08:42:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SnBkdpKNV_Qc; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 08:42:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05F46129C6A; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 08:42:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fhGV9-0004lq-GH; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 15:42:27 +0000 Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 08:42:26 -0700 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Greg Mirsky Cc: Victor Kuarsingh , idr@ietf.org, "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" , "Lsvr@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/25.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] [Lsvr] Why L2 liveness needed for BGP-SPF X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 15:42:36 -0000 > hope an easy question you'll help me with. Liveness as path continuity > check or as connectivity verification. layer 2 link liveness. we have other tools above layer 2; e.g. bfd. randy From nobody Sun Jul 22 10:16:38 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 414931277C8; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 10:16:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qnUAeJVoiocF; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 10:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com (mail-lj1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2416130DD3; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 10:16:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id q127-v6so14927135ljq.11; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 10:16:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JO9zXOeiiNkzy7/W59IHdXmilPK1hGUQbKG00F3QJkM=; b=r57z16tmw93jq3wPaLGFeUa2JJLTWPIj7nevc/NDqOF94LArrTwjgcM13Aubuwc+qg Ew8spHn45sYuMgxzCO56hG2V037j1cKDcj5IMMz1VLC13BAO6OiPFzQnxRIcDhiG3xee ig/ZYZUzF2MNoKP1leLQQE1mJ7lZXASD7C3+qD6tqIxKYfN8rjeuYxLgHl4G1+J5IXHh e2/9zFJTbGL/kk4lnnKJY32JHoO2Dpm95mqOogXr7yYCIAHCGTbrNOw7IMBpbUovdZIn 3w+L3s6MNlbn5xoZp+NVaC+ObI3oZ19HEhzuM62yw6Q+STOE+bxYznNtMyfehoiPyV6c aMYQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JO9zXOeiiNkzy7/W59IHdXmilPK1hGUQbKG00F3QJkM=; b=b3mjJheHuYYgPOXa9AcOKN35SKGX0uPbYGUSh+805LAV6RB24hwlYLF/sONgCnlrwu iNrq2qOiHQAbAajKbsft84S7AifRaXpsoYejiQVBMYQ10qM+xx1F/C36UdksrLIDl4km fTDRXLr+32fbLBf6DPJ0/pVbHHdcwNz8Wj2Cxi9Jn8gGqO6l624GRxMOERxjoaUJlFN7 /QtrN/cN3Y1x3nnkPiVi726tSPIttOGq7oGf+E7rI+EH4gQ4SyjSx38bgtdRp3j7nhId utcWk2vHc2pfpO1Z3MOcEeNAq9+BSj8me0VgSH+f4YxSmoxL3qa+FqtVqStYjRLla5HJ 41rg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlGXWLPKU6EdbdHENOk1ws4lF93Zn/PH7RwGNSBMyOZCkR9mFYND +P7uh9viqbL3hoFwLgpPyFUFrK3iNMezCfoJqME= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcfnZ2bDCAufddYbkXV0v6mmD3Zh/VP5aP9hlB643Dz2sFeLT771JlbhcPM/I+7GHf+dO+05F5LI9iPCSiB9KU= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:4701:: with SMTP id u1-v6mr7059505lja.54.1532279793149; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 10:16:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 12:16:20 -0500 Message-ID: To: Randy Bush Cc: Victor Kuarsingh , idr@ietf.org, "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" , "Lsvr@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c46a4b057199b00a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] [Lsvr] Why L2 liveness needed for BGP-SPF X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 17:16:37 -0000 --000000000000c46a4b057199b00a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Randy, thank you for the quick response to my question. BFD monitors path continuity at the layer 3, though there's BFD over LAG that picks into the layer 2. One cannot differentiate between liveness of the remote system and availability of the path between two systems. If we are not interested whether packets from the particular source and only that source received, then we use path continuity check protocol. BFD is the example of the CC while CFM, Layer 2, is the connectivity verification. Regards, Greg On Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 10:42 Randy Bush wrote: > > hope an easy question you'll help me with. Liveness as path continuity > > check or as connectivity verification. > > layer 2 link liveness. we have other tools above layer 2; e.g. bfd. > > randy > --000000000000c46a4b057199b00a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Randy,
thank you for the quick respon= se to my question. BFD monitors path continuity at the layer 3, though ther= e's BFD over LAG that picks into the layer 2. One cannot differentiate = between liveness of the remote system and availability of the path between = two systems. If we are not interested whether packets from the particular s= ource and only that source received, then we use path continuity check prot= ocol. BFD is the example of the CC while CFM, Layer 2, is the connectivity = verification.=C2=A0

Rega= rds,=C2=A0
Greg=C2=A0

On Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 10:42 Randy Bush <randy@ps= g.com> wrote:
> hope an e= asy question you'll help me with. Liveness as path continuity
> check or as connectivity verification.

layer 2 link liveness.=C2=A0 we have other tools above layer 2; e.g. bfd.
randy
--000000000000c46a4b057199b00a-- From nobody Sun Jul 22 15:49:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6458F1277CC; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 15:49:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dxhb7hn858t2; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 15:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x430.google.com (mail-pf1-x430.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::430]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA3C912426A; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 15:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x430.google.com with SMTP id b17-v6so532434pfi.0; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 15:49:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=pTm95djLm/6tGKOxlSoek6njaI7p770T7JT9dDgyk3Q=; b=Y7ogB0Jjy6vAYehJVnIHkstfWuSbjqdI8f3KUuLtK6F3ZfCH1P7lK2s5+k43QAY328 12M2iHnAdnT8id1nLUlz8HpLt2lG6jvMB1658WtQPkdvnEWfGBV4169cUjcaJMiBVXP/ O5++l19HIp870JYiKR17xsNz3iQPn73XhEGFYQ2QymT7cWWAH8SmPFli2Nu1vQTNIqp/ v6dwA3yrHOhEz7y54owd7EyP03bhrkPvbUyR64KefOmLiq/UkIQE1ndG+I/FcUcWyivR tM/4Vb6tb/J+BpwTwEHOnucxgZDC+Zljgwmu8EZmYEgAxwE8/+phRs8KzHbCaug2oco8 rxlA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pTm95djLm/6tGKOxlSoek6njaI7p770T7JT9dDgyk3Q=; b=tsYaydYTjqhfTsADz9XFfdXiQCbN0nqNMiiZKMQB4B4geq6mg2d3XZlIAIRhyBBHuJ 6pfyGFciftYyP2yieRyUbYCuRFpYJvDc3qD73F1Q2gSsESO7kfTZJkW4IACLk4uIoBPt qr+dNJybBRyEUggLsOZtrF6HjrFGQaK1/7WohCjTE0Njp2AZ/ujiU2zAonyDyWPUhLCp RDmlRT5SbETRF+0geR1Ca2UMuj9nAT3HPJSyJl+6lactMX6Ahuja6oxAyrXxI26d6kLr B1/mXaoNlZQm6EaZeGYAm1wGQ5cS2Z5Ky5+aNadL2QjulBcoYOvVKFn7Vx8s8idpXXlz VtvA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlHSC5QuGDuYRiNOyzpnopvPO0yEmthE6P9xdeLIpKbv6ihdpXuX CPUQufdnntd1HqiPXL2h29K0LA9pkJQIwOuy3XU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpedAvPTjfRDQMCY8EeFyhFrtm2xOMM3azysPiQhntmY636jGWblOKsZOOMBStz+H7LWDcVzkjEcQAKtvBBMGFU= X-Received: by 2002:a65:5641:: with SMTP id m1-v6mr10187760pgs.246.1532299740882; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 15:49:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a17:90a:d396:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 15:49:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 00:49:00 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 12rARLyyi3M923gklqMNYQCLW_A Message-ID: To: Greg Mirsky Cc: Randy Bush , idr wg , "Lsvr@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000beab9c05719e550c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] [Lsvr] Why L2 liveness needed for BGP-SPF X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 22:49:05 -0000 --000000000000beab9c05719e550c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hey Greg, I don't think this is about liveness or connectivity verification. It is all about physical topology discovery at L2 without one of two popular link state protocol which today do the job just fine. Whoever is asking for it is however correct that we don't have a protocol independent way of discovering Ethernet topologies. If it is a feature or a drawback remains to be seen. I was observing identical struggle in OF .. as expected it failed pretty badly ! Just to note L3 BGP Hellos to discover topology is terrible idea even worse then LLDP one. Thx, R. On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 7:16 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi Randy, > thank you for the quick response to my question. BFD monitors path > continuity at the layer 3, though there's BFD over LAG that picks into the > layer 2. One cannot differentiate between liveness of the remote system and > availability of the path between two systems. If we are not interested > whether packets from the particular source and only that source received, > then we use path continuity check protocol. BFD is the example of the CC > while CFM, Layer 2, is the connectivity verification. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 10:42 Randy Bush wrote: > >> > hope an easy question you'll help me with. Liveness as path continuity >> > check or as connectivity verification. >> >> layer 2 link liveness. we have other tools above layer 2; e.g. bfd. >> >> randy >> > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > --000000000000beab9c05719e550c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Greg,

<= /div>
I don't think this is about liveness or connect= ivity verification.=C2=A0

It is all about physical topology discovery at L2 without one of two po= pular link state protocol which today do the job just fine. Whoever is aski= ng for it is however correct that we don't have a protocol independent = way of discovering Ethernet topologies. If it is a feature or a drawback re= mains to be seen.=C2=A0

I was observing identical struggle in OF .. as expected it failed pretty = badly !=C2=A0

Just to = note L3 BGP Hellos to discover topology is terrible idea even worse then LL= DP one.=C2=A0

Thx,
R.


On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 7:1= 6 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Randy,
tha= nk you for the quick response to my question. BFD monitors path continuity = at the layer 3, though there's BFD over LAG that picks into the layer 2= . One cannot differentiate between liveness of the remote system and availa= bility of the path between two systems. If we are not interested whether pa= ckets from the particular source and only that source received, then we use= path continuity check protocol. BFD is the example of the CC while CFM, La= yer 2, is the connectivity verification.=C2=A0

<= /div>
Regards,=C2=A0
Greg=C2=A0

On Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 10:42 Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:=
> hope an easy question you'= ;ll help me with. Liveness as path continuity
> check or as connectivity verification.

layer 2 link liveness.=C2=A0 we have other tools above layer 2; e.g. bfd.
randy

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--000000000000beab9c05719e550c-- From nobody Sun Jul 22 15:56:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6117612426A; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 15:56:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DC4Mmw9iLpU0; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 15:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x236.google.com (mail-lj1-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 217C0130E3C; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 15:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x236.google.com with SMTP id j19-v6so15287975ljc.7; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 15:55:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=HhqdJLNxZGD7ME8d1sB39XuRe4HRHBxNujGt4VhItEc=; b=IfUzWNNRuKCeUA5Z/eETeVY2k5Wra21f0c4tRvud6NSzoVvkXxpwmLhjlZkZuZOQCU Y7J+i2N8RBb/4A74c1Jz0yK0UuZYcoZd6Vzl8hICCPAUInPzIKSoZ2Y3UQq0OG+bChmv TEbM5tT1aP1mX1y1EjAwOkizTqeA6ShkcL/UwMD4WMS7crIlVv7o+jh5ebLn+Flt0aIN +vVS67IORowM+v/KW0GmBFSVKzrPcw5RWyo5OA/WTnX3TSdeFvNGXQ1F0ITctA88Fal1 xzN0uZlbZFhSdJ9RoksPgNolQEdJgtQPhVUDMcG7eKLl8H3hoTE6ysMPjrZnogF9qrCf 4LTA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=HhqdJLNxZGD7ME8d1sB39XuRe4HRHBxNujGt4VhItEc=; b=nbSf68qcsH38+QFCZu8+jpmlnd0EGfjdhSLN+sIjL8aa97cHeCWQGisHqbFeEE1CSI CMgaBRSxoS7+tSq66DWRfIUqcbUtDRcFsT98bWNeYKFgshqjGlwmImRQaxsiHbxoFoaH vI3qakj0D47a3WqoAt2NsJ2q5xvUR/XrF2JYwLDFtRCaDp9HWt2SK9S611GY7ZPVVNmK TYwUj0tr6UPvAPMh5dDhDSAe/ZJiz4OjRYj9lGp0IBy1oypdV2MEYp/NpFswVjBGvqkv ZgHEuFXpUmP8tvBMawwUQUl8EenZYlfB8UAkogzHD4XofgyV5tb5dMc6k8uAsrTglr/N EKyQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlEeFmrpj0Mq10V1fcNvB1aZxEaMuwGD13FqCUknad/7xXq1S+6M juRsSkXgqnLkjmfpWQRM/bDOk9R5RpBAPBRUdlU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpeYYyEpV+vTMD8iE3sxQm4X+qrHrfbuTiKR74LfdAnyTfLc2zfYuh3S7WDf6aX3PsuflY4ZbdplA4cECSzlO60= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:10ca:: with SMTP id 71-v6mr7328199ljq.59.1532300157201; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 15:55:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a2e:709:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sun, 22 Jul 2018 15:55:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 15:55:56 -0700 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Randy Bush , idr wg , "Lsvr@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008f338405719e6ebf" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] [Lsvr] Why L2 liveness needed for BGP-SPF X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 22:56:03 -0000 --0000000000008f338405719e6ebf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Robert, thank you for the clarification. I've got interested in the discussion since "liveliness" often used as the alternative for "continuity check". But if it's topology discovery with or without capability advertisement, I'll sit down. Regards, Greg On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 3:49 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Hey Greg, > > I don't think this is about liveness or connectivity verification. > > It is all about physical topology discovery at L2 without one of two > popular link state protocol which today do the job just fine. Whoever is > asking for it is however correct that we don't have a protocol independent > way of discovering Ethernet topologies. If it is a feature or a drawback > remains to be seen. > > I was observing identical struggle in OF .. as expected it failed pretty > badly ! > > Just to note L3 BGP Hellos to discover topology is terrible idea even > worse then LLDP one. > > Thx, > R. > > > On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 7:16 PM, Greg Mirsky > wrote: > >> Hi Randy, >> thank you for the quick response to my question. BFD monitors path >> continuity at the layer 3, though there's BFD over LAG that picks into the >> layer 2. One cannot differentiate between liveness of the remote system and >> availability of the path between two systems. If we are not interested >> whether packets from the particular source and only that source received, >> then we use path continuity check protocol. BFD is the example of the CC >> while CFM, Layer 2, is the connectivity verification. >> >> Regards, >> Greg >> >> On Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 10:42 Randy Bush wrote: >> >>> > hope an easy question you'll help me with. Liveness as path continuity >>> > check or as connectivity verification. >>> >>> layer 2 link liveness. we have other tools above layer 2; e.g. bfd. >>> >>> randy >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Idr mailing list >> Idr@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr >> >> > --0000000000008f338405719e6ebf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Robert,
thank you for the clarification. I've g= ot interested in the discussion since "liveliness" often used as = the alternative for "continuity check". But if it's topology = discovery=C2=A0with or without capability advertisement, I'll sit down.=

Regards,
Greg

On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 3:49 PM= , Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
Hey Greg,

I don't think this is about li= veness or connectivity verification.=C2=A0

It is all about physical topology discovery at L2 with= out one of two popular link state protocol which today do the job just fine= . Whoever is asking for it is however correct that we don't have a prot= ocol independent way of discovering Ethernet topologies. If it is a feature= or a drawback remains to be seen.=C2=A0

=
I was observing identical struggle in OF .. as expected = it failed pretty badly !=C2=A0

Just to note L3 BGP Hellos to discover topology is terrible idea e= ven worse then LLDP one.=C2=A0

Thx,
R.

=

On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 7:16 PM, Greg Mirsky = <gregimirsky@= gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Randy,
than= k you for the quick response to my question. BFD monitors path continuity a= t the layer 3, though there's BFD over LAG that picks into the layer 2.= One cannot differentiate between liveness of the remote system and availab= ility of the path between two systems. If we are not interested whether pac= kets from the particular source and only that source received, then we use = path continuity check protocol. BFD is the example of the CC while CFM, Lay= er 2, is the connectivity verification.=C2=A0

Regards,=C2=A0
Greg=C2=A0

On Sun= , Jul 22, 2018, 10:42 Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
> hope an easy question you'll help me w= ith. Liveness as path continuity
> check or as connectivity verification.

layer 2 link liveness.=C2=A0 we have other tools above layer 2; e.g. bfd.
randy

______________________________= _________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr



--0000000000008f338405719e6ebf-- From nobody Mon Jul 23 00:17:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAEB3130E41 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 00:17:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.802 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.802 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DC_PNG_UNO_LARGO=0.001, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_08=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1xXmxwGURVN8 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 00:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from m176115.mail.qiye.163.com (m176115.mail.qiye.163.com [59.111.176.115]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7EE7130E17 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 00:16:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from WangajPC (unknown [219.142.69.77]) by m176115.mail.qiye.163.com (Hmail) with ESMTPA id 7CAE466104F; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 15:16:48 +0800 (CST) From: "Aijun Wang" To: "'Peter Psenak'" , Cc: , "'Acee Lindem \(acee\)'" , "'Ketan Talaulikar \(ketant\)'" , "'Dongjie \(Jimmy\)'" Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 15:16:46 +0800 Message-ID: <000701d42255$1e5e2d40$5b1a87c0$@org.cn> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01D42298.2C816D40" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AdQiVR2O/y14KzohRb+x/lA57qn80A== Content-Language: zh-cn X-HM-Spam-Status: e1kIGBQJHllBS1VLV1koWUFKTEtLSjdXWS1ZQUlXWQkOFx4IWUFZMjUtOj cyP0FLVUtZBg++ X-HM-Sender-Digest: e1kMHhlZQR0aFwgeV1kSHx4VD1lBWUc6NBg6Aio4QzoiLTQXMR4fIi9P TjcKCUhVSlVKTkhJSEhLSUpNTklDVTMWGhIXVQwaFRwaEhEOFTsPCBIVHBMOGlUUCRxVGBVFWVdZ EgtZQVlJSkJVSk9JVU1CVUxMWVdZCAFZQUhCQ05KNwY+ X-HM-Tid: 0a64c5ff6dd79373kuws7cae466104f Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] Regarding OSPF extension for inter-area topology retrieval X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 07:17:05 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01D42298.2C816D40 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01D42298.2C816D40" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01D42298.2C816D40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Peter: I am Aijun Wang from China Telecom, the author of draft about "OSPF extension for inter-area topology retrieval", which is presented by Mr.Jie Dong during the IETF102 meeting. Thanks for your comments on the presentation material . Below are my explanation that regarding to the question about "how it retrievals the inter-area topology based on the extension information": Let's see the graph that illustrates in Fig.1 at section 3 of the draft(I copy it also below for your conveniences ): Assuming we want to rebuild the connection between router S1 and router S2 that locates in area 1: 1) Normally, router S1 will advertise prefix N1 within its router LSA 2) When this router LSA reaches the ABR router R1, it will convert it into summary LSA, add the "Source Router Information", which is router id of S1 in this example, as proposed in this draft. 3) R1 then floods this extension summary LSA to R0, which is running BGP-LS protocol with IP SDN Controller. The controller then knows the prefixes of N1 is from S1. 4) Router S2 will do the similar process, and the controller will also knows the prefixes N1 is also from S2 5) Then it can reconstruct the connection between S1 and S2, which prefix is N1. The topology within Area 1 can then be recovered accordingly. Does the above explanation can answer your question. if so, I can add it into the context of this draft in updated version. Best Regards. Aijun Wang Network R&D and Operation Support Department China Telecom Corporation Limited Beijing Research Institute,Beijing, China. ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01D42298.2C816D40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, = Peter:

 

I am Aijun Wang from China Telecom, the author of draft = about “OSPF extension for inter-area topology = retrieval”, which is presented by Mr.Jie Dong during the = IETF102 meeting.

Thanks for your comments on the presentation = material.

Below are my explanation that regarding to the question = about “how it retrievals the inter-area topology based on the = extension information”:

 

Let’s see the graph that = illustrates in Fig.1 at section 3 of the draft(I copy it also below for = your conveniences ):

 

 

Assuming we want to rebuild the connection between router = S1 and router S2 that locates in area 1:

1)       = Normally, router S1 = will advertise prefix N1 within its router LSA

2)       = When this router LSA = reaches the ABR router R1, it will convert it into summary LSA, add the = “Source Router Information”, which is router id of S1 in = this example, as proposed in this draft.

3)       = R1 then floods this = extension summary LSA to R0, which is running BGP-LS protocol with IP = SDN Controller. The controller then knows the prefixes of N1 is from = S1.

4)       = Router S2 will do the = similar process, and the controller will also knows the prefixes N1 is = also from S2

5)       = Then it can = reconstruct the connection between S1 and S2, which prefix is N1. The = topology within Area 1 can then be recovered accordingly. =   

 

Does the above explanation can answer your question. if so, = I can add it into the context of this draft in updated = version.

 

 

Best Regards.

 

Aijun Wang

Network R&D and Operation = Support Department

China Telecom Corporation Limited Beijing Research = Institute,Beijing, China.

 

 

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------=_NextPart_000_0008_01D42298.2C816D40-- From nobody Mon Jul 23 01:38:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F371C130E40 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 01:38:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.019 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.019 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_BL=0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_L3=2.899, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FJfIL68u5-Sc for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 01:38:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from m21397.mail.qiye.163.com (m21397.mail.qiye.163.com [223.252.213.97]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 611F4130E57 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 01:38:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from WangajPC (unknown [219.142.69.77]) by m21397.mail.qiye.163.com (Hmail) with ESMTPA id 0FD1D141A92; Mon, 23 Jul 2018 16:38:30 +0800 (CST) From: "Aijun Wang" To: "'Jeff Tantsura'" , "'Ketan Talaulikar \(ketant\)'" Cc: References: <008501d40f72$8d7ee8e0$a87cbaa0$@org.cn> In-Reply-To: <008501d40f72$8d7ee8e0$a87cbaa0$@org.cn> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 16:38:28 +0800 Message-ID: <002501d42260$87d5fd60$9781f820$@org.cn> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01D422A3.95F93D60" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AdQPcFXAn6SaPOKOT52Eyiv0xhncSQAAUxHgAAA0c8AEuf0JkA== Content-Language: zh-cn X-HM-Spam-Status: e1ktWUFJV1koWUFKTEtLSjdXWQgYFAkeWUFLVUtXWQkOFx4IWUFZMjUtOj cyP0FLVUtZBg++ X-HM-Sender-Digest: e1kSHx4VD1lBWUc6MRA6HCo6PzoiDzQJCT0#VkkJHklPCj5VSlVKTkhJ SEhOSkpDTUNPVTMWGhIXVQwaFRwaEhEOFTsPCBIVHBMOGlUUCRxVGBVFWVdZDB4ZWUEdGhcIHldZ CAFZQUNPTExDN1dZEgtZQVlJSkJVSk9JVU1CVUxMWQY+ X-HM-Tid: 0a64c64a381f7f6bkuuk0fd1d141a92 Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgRlc6IE5ldyBWZXJzaW9uIE5vdGlmaWNhdGlv?= =?utf-8?q?n_for_draft-wang-idr-bgpls-inter-as-topology-ext-01=2Etxt?= X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 08:38:51 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01D422A3.95F93D60 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0027_01D422A3.95F93D60" ------=_NextPart_001_0027_01D422A3.95F93D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Jeff and Ketan: =20 Thanks for your comments on the presentation = at the IETF 102 = meeting, below are the responses for your comments and questions: =20 Ketan: It would be good to describe the new TLVs in the document [Aijun Wang]: Yes, I will describe them in detail in the updated = version. =20 Jeff Tantsura: The address space used on the interconnection address = space is uncommon to be imported into the IGP. The address space from = other operator does not belong in your IGP address space.=20 [Aijun Wang]: As I described in the scenario slide(I copy it also for = your convenience), it is common for one operator occupy several IGP = domains that composited by its backbone network and several = MAN(Metrio-Area-Network)s/IDCs. When they do Traffic Engineering from = end to end that spans MAN-Backbone-IDC, they need to know the inter-as = topology via the proposals that described in this draft. Then it is = naturally to redistribute the interconnection prefixes. If these IGP domains belong to different operators, it is uncommon do = inter-as traffic engineering under one PCE/SDN controller/, then it is = unnecessary to get the inter-as topology. But redistributing the = interconnection prefixes will do no harm to their networks, because the = redistributed interconnection link prefixes belongs to both of them, = they are also the interfaces address on the border routers. =20 If the above explanation acceptable, I can add it to the = =E2=80=9Csecurity consideration=E2=80=9D part of the updated version of = this draft. =20 =20 =20 Thanks in advance. =20 =20 Best Regards. =20 Aijun Wang Network R&D and Operation Support Department China Telecom Corporation Limited Beijing Research Institute,Beijing, = China. =20 =20 -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Aijun Wang = [mailto:wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn]=20 =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2018=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8829=E6=97=A5 = 14:30 =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: idr@ietf.org =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [Idr] FW: New Version Notification for = draft-wang-idr-bgpls-inter-as-topology-ext-01.txt =20 Hi, All IDRer: =20 We have uploaded the updated version of the draft about BGP-LS extension = for inter-AS topology retrieval, which addresses the valuable comments = from Acee and Ketan during IETF 101 meeting in London. The draft can be access at = = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-idr-bgpls-inter-as-topology-ext-01= Any comments and suggestions are welcome. =20 Best Regards. =20 Aijun Wang Network R&D and Operation Support Department China Telecom Corporation = Limited Beijing Research Institute,Beijing, China. =20 -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: = internet-drafts@ietf.org [ = mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org] =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2018=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8829=E6=97=A5 = 14:14 =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Aijun Wang =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: New Version Notification for = draft-wang-idr-bgpls-inter-as-topology-ext-01.txt =20 =20 A new version of I-D, draft-wang-idr-bgpls-inter-as-topology-ext-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Aijun Wang and posted to the IETF = repository. =20 Name: draft-wang-idr-bgpls-inter-as-topology-ext Revision: 01 Title: BGP-LS Extend for Inter-AS Topology Retrieval Document date: 2018-06-28 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 7 URL: = = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-idr-bgpls-inter-as-topolo= gy-ext-01.txt Status: = = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-idr-bgpls-inter-as-topology-e= xt/ Htmlized: = = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-idr-bgpls-inter-as-topology-ext-01= Htmlized: = = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-idr-bgpls-inter-as-topol= ogy-ext Diff: = = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-wang-idr-bgpls-inter-as-topolog= y-ext-01 =20 Abstract: This document describes the process to build BGP-LS key parameters in Native IP multi-domain scenario and defines some new inter-AS TE related TLVs for BGP-LS to let SDN controller retrieve the network topology automatically under various environments. =20 Such process and extension can expand the usage of BGP-LS protocol to multi- domain, enable the network operator to collect the connection relationship between different AS domains and then calculate the overall network topology automatically based on the information provided by BGP-LS protocol. =20 = =20 =20 =20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org. =20 The IETF Secretariat =20 _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr ------=_NextPart_001_0027_01D422A3.95F93D60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, Jeff = and Ketan:

 

Thanks for your comments on the presentation= at the IETF 102 meeting, below are the responses for your comments and = questions:

 

Ketan: = It would be good to describe the new TLVs in the = document

[Aijun = Wang]: Yes, I will describe them in detail in the updated = version.

 

Jeff = Tantsura: The address space used on the interconnection address space is = uncommon to be imported into the IGP. The address space from other = operator does not belong in your IGP address = space. 

[Aijun = Wang]: As I described in the scenario slide(I copy it also for your = convenience), it is common for one operator occupy several IGP domains = that composited by its backbone network and several = MAN(Metrio-Area-Network)s/IDCs. When they do Traffic Engineering from = end to end that spans MAN-Backbone-IDC, they need to know the inter-as = topology via the proposals that described in this draft. Then it is = naturally to redistribute the interconnection = prefixes.

If these = IGP domains belong to different operators, it is uncommon do inter-as = traffic engineering under one PCE/SDN controller/, then it is = unnecessary to get the inter-as topology. But redistributing the = interconnection prefixes will do no harm to their networks, because the = redistributed interconnection link prefixes belongs to both of them, = they are also the interfaces address on the border = routers.

 

If the = above explanation acceptable, I can add it to the =E2=80=9Csecurity = consideration=E2=80=9D part of the updated version of this = draft.

 

 

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

Best = Regards.

 

Aijun Wang

Network R&D and Operation Support = Department

China Telecom Corporation Limited Beijing Research = Institute,Beijing, China.

 

 

-----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB= =B6-----
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Aijun Wang [mailto:wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn] =
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97= =B4: 2018=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8829=E6=97=A5 14:30
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: idr@ietf.org
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [Idr] FW: New Version Notification for = draft-wang-idr-bgpls-inter-as-topology-ext-01.txt

 

Hi, All = IDRer:

 

We have uploaded the updated version of the draft about = BGP-LS extension for inter-AS topology retrieval, which addresses the = valuable comments from Acee and Ketan during IETF 101 meeting in = London.

The draft can be access at https://tools.ietf.org/ht= ml/draft-wang-idr-bgpls-inter-as-topology-ext-01

Any comments and = suggestions are welcome.

 

Best = Regards.

 

Aijun Wang

Network R&D and Operation = Support Department China Telecom Corporation Limited Beijing Research = Institute,Beijing, China.

 

-----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB= =B6-----

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: internet-drafts@ietf.org<= /span> [mailto:internet-drafts@ie= tf.org]

=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97= =B4: 2018=E5=B9=B46=E6=9C=8829=E6=97=A5 14:14

=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Aijun Wang

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: New Version Notification for = draft-wang-idr-bgpls-inter-as-topology-ext-01.txt

 

 

A new version of I-D, = draft-wang-idr-bgpls-inter-as-topology-ext-01.txt

has been successfully submitted = by Aijun Wang and posted to the IETF repository.

 

Name:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = draft-wang-idr-bgpls-inter-as-topology-ext

Revision:=C2=A0 = 01

Title:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 BGP-LS Extend for = Inter-AS Topology Retrieval

Document = date:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = 2018-06-28

Group:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Individual = Submission

Pages:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 7

URL:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/inte= rnet-drafts/draft-wang-idr-bgpls-inter-as-topology-ext-01.txt<= o:p>

Status:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://datatracker.ietf.= org/doc/draft-wang-idr-bgpls-inter-as-topology-ext/=

Htmlized:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://tools.ietf.org/ht= ml/draft-wang-idr-bgpls-inter-as-topology-ext-01

Htmlized:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://datatracker.ietf.= org/doc/html/draft-wang-idr-bgpls-inter-as-topology-ext

Diff:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 https://www.ietf.org/rfcd= iff?url2=3Ddraft-wang-idr-bgpls-inter-as-topology-ext-01<= /o:p>

 

Abstract:

=C2=A0=C2=A0 This document = describes the process to build BGP-LS key parameters = in

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Native IP multi-domain scenario and defines = some new inter-AS TE

=C2=A0=C2=A0 related TLVs for BGP-LS to let SDN controller = retrieve the network

=C2=A0=C2=A0 topology automatically under various = environments.

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Such process and extension can expand the = usage of BGP-LS protocol to

=C2=A0=C2=A0 multi- domain, = enable the network operator to collect the = connection

=C2=A0=C2=A0 relationship between different AS domains and = then calculate the

=C2=A0=C2=A0 overall network topology automatically based = on the information

=C2=A0=C2=A0 provided by BGP-LS = protocol.

 

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

 

 

Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the = time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org.

 

The IETF Secretariat

 

_______________________________________________

Idr mailing = list

Idr@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/idr

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<61c2eb0c-e9dd-4dc5-9ae4-8a98acaae0be.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.14.87.188] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DA0A405C96EF4340A582BC4EFF442116tencentcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Fw: WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery(Internet mail) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 13:34:50 -0000 --_000_DA0A405C96EF4340A582BC4EFF442116tencentcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgLCBmb2xrcw0KDQpJIGFtIGEgbmV0d29yayBhcmNoaXRlY3QgZnJvbSBUZW5jZW50LCBvbmUg b2YgdGhlIHRvcCAzIENoaW5hJ3MgSW50ZXJuZXQgZ2lhbnRzIGFuZCB0aGUgbGFyZ2VzdCBDaGlu ZXNlIHNvY2lhbC1uZXR3b3JrIHNlcnZpY2Ugb3BlcmF0b3IsIHJ1bm5pbmcgbXVsdGlwbGUgTVNE 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 11:09:47 -0000 Reviewer: Stewart Bryant Review result: Has Issues This is basically a well written draft, although it has has a lots of spelling mistakes and needs to passed through a spell checker before a further version is uploaded. However, I have a number of issues that the chairs and authors should consider before deciding how to proceed. The first question to ask is whether the work belongs in RTGWG or in IDR since with the exception of the reference to the optimization described in draft-templin-aerolink-82 this is a pure BGP solution. This is something that the RTGWG chairs should discuss with the IDR chairs. They should also discuss whether the draft needs to be looked at by a BGP specialist before RTGWG adopts it. The approach of building an overlay to separate the network from the main BGP system is a sound one, indeed from both the numbers and a security point of view, it would appear to be essential in a safety critical application such as this. What bothers me is whether the author is underestimating the risk of running an application such as this over the public Internet. Whilst as they explain in the security section, high profile civil users do understand how to mitigate risk and minimize the effect of attack, none of these organizations are as large a target as civil aviation flight safety, and thus I would expect considerable resources, even to nation state level, to be directed at the attachment points. Hopefully ICAO fully understands the risks in running this on the public Internet as proposed. If ever there were an application for inter-domain network slicing, this is it. There is a suggestion in section 3 that for reasons of cost, globally unique ASNs would not be used. It is difficult to believe that cost is an issue in an SoF system. What is surely needed is the most robust approach, which in the long term is usually the cheapest anyway. Using global identifiers minimizes the possibility of error and issues if ever there is a routing leak, and thus the decision on whether to use private or global identifiers needs some careful thought beyond that expressed in this version of the draft. I am worried about the text towards the end of section three which proposes splitting the network into two or more disjoint systems, since that will surely lead to operation and integration issues. In section 6 consideration is given to scaling the core, which looks basically under control for the existing flight profile, but with relatively little headroom for expansion. Given the rise in UAVs, that will surely need to be integrated into a common flight safety system, I am concerned as to whether the authors have allowed sufficient room for expansion. Again hopefully the flight specialists have taken this into account and this is not a problem. Related to the above, presumably flight density if not uniform and the authors have satisfied themselves with the scaling of the stub areas. From nobody Tue Jul 24 12:54:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01998130F52; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 12:54:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nT-_XwC48aeD; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 12:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B009A1277C8; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 12:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id w6OJs1R4010848; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 12:54:01 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-12.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-12.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.239.221]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id w6OJruQ2010411 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 24 Jul 2018 12:53:56 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-12.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:efdd::8988:efdd) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1367.3; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 12:53:55 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1367.000; Tue, 24 Jul 2018 12:53:55 -0700 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Stewart Bryant , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" CC: "idr@ietf.org" , "rtgwg-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-templin-atn-bgp.all@ietf.org" , "idr-chairs@ietf.org" , "rtgwg@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Idr] Rtgdir early review of draft-templin-atn-bgp-07 Thread-Index: AQHUIz7jU5XGWh1/CkCJaib5rfbbEaSev/Hw Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 19:53:55 +0000 Message-ID: References: <153243058668.22562.6511891462599952686@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <153243058668.22562.6511891462599952686@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Rtgdir early review of draft-templin-atn-bgp-07 X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 19:54:09 -0000 Hello Stewart, Thank you for your effort in reviewing the document. Please see below for follow-up discussion: Fred > -----Original Message----- > From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2018 4:10 AM > To: rtg-dir@ietf.org > Cc: idr@ietf.org; rtgwg-chairs@ietf.org; draft-templin-atn-bgp.all@ietf.o= rg; idr-chairs@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org > Subject: [Idr] Rtgdir early review of draft-templin-atn-bgp-07 >=20 > Reviewer: Stewart Bryant > Review result: Has Issues >=20 > This is basically a well written draft, although it has has a lots of spe= lling > mistakes and needs to passed through a spell checker before a further ver= sion > is uploaded. Certainly we will fix that; apologies if it impacted the readability. > However, I have a number of issues that the chairs and authors should con= sider > before deciding how to proceed. >=20 > The first question to ask is whether the work belongs in RTGWG or in IDR = since > with the exception of the reference to the optimization described in > draft-templin-aerolink-82 this is a pure BGP solution. This is something= that > the RTGWG chairs should discuss with the IDR chairs. They should also dis= cuss > whether the draft needs to be looked at by a BGP specialist before RTGWG = adopts > it. The document has been presented at RTGWG at three different IETF meetings now and seems to have been well received there. So, we would like to see it become an RTGWG working group item so we would not have to start the socialization process over again, but your point is well taken. I do not ha= ve enough experience with routing area working groups to understand all of the implications, so any guidance would be appreciated.=20 > The approach of building an overlay to separate the network from the main= BGP > system is a sound one, indeed from both the numbers and a security point = of > view, it would appear to be essential in a safety critical application s= uch as > this. What bothers me is whether the author is underestimating the risk o= f > running an application such as this over the public Internet. Whilst as t= hey > explain in the security section, high profile civil users do understand h= ow to > mitigate risk and minimize the effect of attack, none of these organizati= ons > are as large a target as civil aviation flight safety, and thus I would e= xpect > considerable resources, even to nation state level, to be directed at the > attachment points. Hopefully ICAO fully understands the risks in running = this > on the public Internet as proposed. If ever there were an application for > inter-domain network slicing, this is it. For civil aviation, this is indeed a critical consideration. On the open pu= blic Internet, for example, although IPsec could be used to establish secure tunnels other threat vectors such as DDoS need to be considered. In my understanding, ICAO is thinking about an underlay network comprising secured physical links (e.g., fiber) and/or constructs like SD-WAN. But, the construction of the underlay I think is something that has been taken for granted and as you observe is pivotal to the design security. > There is a suggestion in section 3 that for reasons of cost, globally uni= que > ASNs would not be used. It is difficult to believe that cost is an issue = in an > SoF system. What is surely needed is the most robust approach, which in t= he > long term is usually the cheapest anyway. Using global identifiers minimi= zes > the possibility of error and issues if ever there is a routing leak, and = thus > the decision on whether to use private or global identifiers needs some c= areful > thought beyond that expressed in this version of the draft. I don't mind dropping the assertion that private AS numbers could be used. As you say, there is probably no downside to procuring real global AS numbers up front even if the overlay is never connected to the global public Internet. > I am worried about the text towards the end of section three which propos= es > splitting the network into two or more disjoint systems, since that will = surely > lead to operation and integration issues. Looking at that text with fresh eyes, I can see that a rewrite would help bring across the point we are trying to make. What we want to have is a means for supporting multiple independent RIBs and bounding the numbers of prefixes each RIB will be sized to carry. So, if each RIB supported up to 1M prefixes and we had 1K RIBs, we would be able to service 1B prefixes or even a bit more. Does that help clarify? If so, I will consult with co-authors to improve that text. > In section 6 consideration is given to scaling the core, which looks basi= cally > under control for the existing flight profile, but with relatively little > headroom for expansion. Given the rise in UAVs, that will surely need to= be > integrated into a common flight safety system, I am concerned as to wheth= er the > authors have allowed sufficient room for expansion. Again hopefully the f= light > specialists have taken this into account and this is not a problem. The upper bound in terms of scaling we were targeting was up to 1B prefixes carried as BGP routes in order to allow for expansion. You are right to observe that we are at the advent of wide-scale deployment of UAVs, but this network would be only for those UAVs that fly to, from or through airspace controlled by Air Traffic Controllers (ATCs) - meaning it would only be for UAVs that take off and land at airports. For the futur= e, the types of UAVs that will eventually do that include unmanned cargo delivery freighters and the like. But, we would only be expecting a few thousands, ten-thousands, or hundred-thousansds of those; certainly not millions and millions. For small UAVs that stay away from the airports, however, there is potential for many millions of those or more. For them, the FAA and NASA have a concept known as "Unmanned (air) Traffic Management" or "UTM". The UTM would need to be a separate network unto itself, but we believe these same BGP principles could apply there. > Related to the above, presumably flight density if not uniform and the au= thors > have satisfied themselves with the scaling of the stub areas. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr From nobody Wed Jul 25 02:13:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1036C130F76; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 02:13:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qf_IIbPSNjft; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 02:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x444.google.com (mail-wr1-x444.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::444]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E229130E58; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 02:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x444.google.com with SMTP id j5-v6so6642691wrr.8; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 02:13:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=YQNksFDfjjMSxw2cQvgNz4Gmbp5WQSmjNURJ6JjVdNc=; b=WK0m8d70flB+qpg7pEpCx0aKHd0O3qJ60V4zMS8LB9pRTtaggkUvuCWCqK5sCjzLZh 5rnVWJfj7Eco9j/Tv9zu80RLvGr+SrzCNXCwmisrJBk++7K1ztqy4q8RdqTV7Pc6XJL1 eDo+dSE8+2ztvc3vjEe49nVrmh+mvBlPqb5wKOv5EaJl8b8FHcr2RxJuP/MjyZgZ9mKy gchMgdkM9BjGsJkCqikF9M8X86HgMDkT+wMUoXgFAmFE5TUVv2qqkEnysEyPT+0h7+lw fKniaR3j/sYPlRsDEsj9SRtoMHRvn9MXEOhiPl4V9cNChCRAEXbFXfn2yem2N90hGsZF U+jQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=YQNksFDfjjMSxw2cQvgNz4Gmbp5WQSmjNURJ6JjVdNc=; b=XuClK8F6GUsoFylbyu1oHPe2yrzpWsxK4j+m09SPCk+aXdmnGo7egXxYKkC2knZHRH 6ew8yXv2EQH2I37HEEHrplHE8Gm7HmcwPlr+ACPhAimdFTESfICD6nRFEcZw9lhhVtkU nwl6voCusBPljOgUHjEhjihgx3Mb8BWb1kiu+ntWRv3ZPuOcZ+IYGnO0Vk9sdfttzgSf yzTVvT+PTFcmUIcU0X7FGKFLqJ+sttjBjKPiqmlqEBzjzzWmTQllzGrwQ5j+IVxPmnnm e6gdkB0i+UUKD5oWoGru+vgAS3a5sa/aQRTFC7Dg6kFK2Ox3kj7ZTMKrRKGy5VJZI8Sm Arsg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlHIb5YjfrA6pv5fUw7TJEf9jocYpQ+oaCK0m8PRS7ymWoCy/GmJ ZVsdw1T03Dn4AewKyc56Wlbx/xmxJ9E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpdAFV5dQYvkBXZ4bQNTxitOvl/ALQp1jrv1piFzqE/BM0xDs/rsnADE9CQAbzZUym/fUj1c1A== X-Received: by 2002:adf:b519:: with SMTP id a25-v6mr14721383wrd.273.1532510013630; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 02:13:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.105] (host213-123-124-182.in-addr.btopenworld.com. [213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v15-v6sm2829944wmc.16.2018.07.25.02.13.32 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 25 Jul 2018 02:13:33 -0700 (PDT) To: "Templin (US), Fred L" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" Cc: "idr@ietf.org" , "rtgwg-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-templin-atn-bgp.all@ietf.org" , "idr-chairs@ietf.org" , "rtgwg@ietf.org" References: <153243058668.22562.6511891462599952686@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <7864a95d-754a-2bb9-d1b6-810202eeb0a7@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 10:13:31 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Rtgdir early review of draft-templin-atn-bgp-07 X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 09:13:38 -0000 On 24/07/2018 20:53, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > Hello Stewart, > > Thank you for your effort in reviewing the document. Please see below for > follow-up discussion: > > Fred > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant >> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2018 4:10 AM >> To: rtg-dir@ietf.org >> Cc: idr@ietf.org; rtgwg-chairs@ietf.org; draft-templin-atn-bgp.all@ietf.org; idr-chairs@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org >> Subject: [Idr] Rtgdir early review of draft-templin-atn-bgp-07 >> >> Reviewer: Stewart Bryant >> Review result: Has Issues >> >> This is basically a well written draft, although it has has a lots of spelling >> mistakes and needs to passed through a spell checker before a further version >> is uploaded. > Certainly we will fix that; apologies if it impacted the readability. > >> However, I have a number of issues that the chairs and authors should consider >> before deciding how to proceed. >> >> The first question to ask is whether the work belongs in RTGWG or in IDR since >> with the exception of the reference to the optimization described in >> draft-templin-aerolink-82 this is a pure BGP solution. This is something that >> the RTGWG chairs should discuss with the IDR chairs. They should also discuss >> whether the draft needs to be looked at by a BGP specialist before RTGWG adopts >> it. > The document has been presented at RTGWG at three different IETF meetings > now and seems to have been well received there. So, we would like to see it > become an RTGWG working group item so we would not have to start the > socialization process over again, but your point is well taken. I do not have > enough experience with routing area working groups to understand all of > the implications, so any guidance would be appreciated. Actually it might also be a candidate for BESS (BGP enabled services). This is a chair/AD decision as much as anything, and they are normally guided by where the required expertise is. >> The approach of building an overlay to separate the network from the main BGP >> system is a sound one, indeed from both the numbers and a security point of >> view, it would appear to be essential in a safety critical application such as >> this. What bothers me is whether the author is underestimating the risk of >> running an application such as this over the public Internet. Whilst as they >> explain in the security section, high profile civil users do understand how to >> mitigate risk and minimize the effect of attack, none of these organizations >> are as large a target as civil aviation flight safety, and thus I would expect >> considerable resources, even to nation state level, to be directed at the >> attachment points. Hopefully ICAO fully understands the risks in running this >> on the public Internet as proposed. If ever there were an application for >> inter-domain network slicing, this is it. > For civil aviation, this is indeed a critical consideration. On the open public > Internet, for example, although IPsec could be used to establish secure > tunnels other threat vectors such as DDoS need to be considered. In my > understanding, ICAO is thinking about an underlay network comprising > secured physical links (e.g., fiber) and/or constructs like SD-WAN. But, > the construction of the underlay I think is something that has been > taken for granted and as you observe is pivotal to the design security. Indeed, I would have expected this to be on a secure network of some sort either purely private or some form of VPN. However, I am sure I read in your text that you were considering using the Public Internet much in the way of SD-WAN. > >> There is a suggestion in section 3 that for reasons of cost, globally unique >> ASNs would not be used. It is difficult to believe that cost is an issue in an >> SoF system. What is surely needed is the most robust approach, which in the >> long term is usually the cheapest anyway. Using global identifiers minimizes >> the possibility of error and issues if ever there is a routing leak, and thus >> the decision on whether to use private or global identifiers needs some careful >> thought beyond that expressed in this version of the draft. > I don't mind dropping the assertion that private AS numbers could be used. > As you say, there is probably no downside to procuring real global AS > numbers up front even if the overlay is never connected to the global > public Internet. > >> I am worried about the text towards the end of section three which proposes >> splitting the network into two or more disjoint systems, since that will surely >> lead to operation and integration issues. > Looking at that text with fresh eyes, I can see that a rewrite would help > bring across the point we are trying to make. What we want to have is > a means for supporting multiple independent RIBs and bounding the > numbers of prefixes each RIB will be sized to carry. So, if each RIB > supported up to 1M prefixes and we had 1K RIBs, we would be able > to service 1B prefixes or even a bit more. Does that help clarify? If so, > I will consult with co-authors to improve that text. Wow, are you sure that such a system is buildable? What you seem to be building is a huge unaggregated routing system. People have considered that before and found that it was unimplimentatble. Remember that for every unaggregated prefix in the RIB you need an entry in the FIB. The FIB in a core router is high speed (expensive) memory and will be replicated on every line card. I think that you really need to discuss your scaling requirements with some hardware vendors to verify that the design you propose can support the required aircraft population over the expected lifetime of the system. What I suspect that you need is some sort of formal hierarchy or layering in the system to support long term scaling, and that is going to be a lot easier if it is explicitly designed in on day one. > >> In section 6 consideration is given to scaling the core, which looks basically >> under control for the existing flight profile, but with relatively little >> headroom for expansion. Given the rise in UAVs, that will surely need to be >> integrated into a common flight safety system, I am concerned as to whether the >> authors have allowed sufficient room for expansion. Again hopefully the flight >> specialists have taken this into account and this is not a problem. > The upper bound in terms of scaling we were targeting was up to 1B > prefixes carried as BGP routes in order to allow for expansion. You are > right to observe that we are at the advent of wide-scale deployment of > UAVs, but this network would be only for those UAVs that fly to, from > or through airspace controlled by Air Traffic Controllers (ATCs) - meaning > it would only be for UAVs that take off and land at airports. Well, you are the application expert here, but that seems to be a critical assumption that you need to test in multiple geographies. Thinking about the London airports, that is quite a restriction. > For the future, > the types of UAVs that will eventually do that include unmanned cargo > delivery freighters and the like. But, we would only be expecting a few > thousands, ten-thousands, or hundred-thousansds of those; certainly > not millions and millions. I am always reminded that when IPv4 was designed, and (in much the same era Ethernet) their address sizes were an approximation to infinity. They are now a long way from infinity. This will be an expensive system to replace so it needs migration path to its infinity. > > For small UAVs that stay away from the airports, however, there is > potential for many millions of those or more. For them, the FAA and > NASA have a concept known as "Unmanned (air) Traffic Management" > or "UTM". The UTM would need to be a separate network unto itself, > but we believe these same BGP principles could apply there. > Best regards Stewart From nobody Wed Jul 25 14:13:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50CFD130EC9; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 14:13:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ML6py8ABN31D; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 14:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x242.google.com (mail-yw0-x242.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9DD97130D7A; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 14:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x242.google.com with SMTP id r184-v6so3391496ywg.6; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 14:13:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=user-agent:date:subject:from:to:cc:message-id:thread-topic :references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Fj0e1uD4FOM6KjzZtnzpqQF3HO6hQ4JTack6IUt34pA=; b=JpaAkGDb3LUGwdAEV2S0MKJ0ITmHUpVa55a8mLk9yFUeO4uE2qjuqLROT5+OpzPdm6 A+LLfE+Ta/PFEQpMyozMVSgLpklsNqKoc1QyF4d317C/MN1wy5tsP29+xxypL6ZuzCwt /1+swS9635QaHcwmNYj1Mh9ovSqHLezGUlxtWLPY6ajJhMThEgqoIl5NyC9v+13W1dzW gUNBIjiERD5oKdeE1m+MgPcihuexV4QwP00xcLu6NCQ3jAJq6E6MpRrs4CaS/3+MO9zh AOsE3mUm0O0tEkz8Zy88eAEqWmmxq73NAmuxIL4zk1urk8YEmS2FVvbmO0ymktF8joKb fStQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:user-agent:date:subject:from:to:cc:message-id :thread-topic:references:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Fj0e1uD4FOM6KjzZtnzpqQF3HO6hQ4JTack6IUt34pA=; b=K+eBYgSbkPQjf8B1N8HocpWnakISpdD8yH5JbnQUMfOBFHyo3DtbYk3pCSpqQwZqvV o/4frEA+lr0bl5XrWYo2J+4IOS52hkmgCYNFVhds5lBcb3xLYwstH38eiYl7nRb8owa9 07h0ND1FdSqxaFbrXlthUX43PZr1z8S0sID/RD07oyXWCAZ5GfEDZs2tNM409zUwJtz6 9uRkTiujlywcSpmYnbwqI2jgJQYO7Edf1FjYTUCzhiDySbFXlJ8ptAkdenHLAtvVquEw KIvWKHV2jJnV4WS3zi1KmSzMFwpx9hQhfOXbCkHBmtUYOFC1F8IjUSWQnEBGt6pv9U4o 7gwg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlHtPrJh4Yr/m0J85Sf+VQ9zCl/wypN1EKxOCrkQXQcGEZUgHsoT l1jjFkOIOiDCpZCde2S29bw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpevmJKdG/kYmbrSEM/rAh7GnlvXDKMmydSgvIPjgGVIMSoICdtqq7FFXcGiEXc7lbldt+nSug== X-Received: by 2002:a81:d804:: with SMTP id d4-v6mr11970062ywj.470.1532553207875; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 14:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [135.227.239.108] ([66.201.62.254]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n3-v6sm9434247ywb.70.2018.07.25.14.13.26 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 25 Jul 2018 14:13:26 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.f.0.180709 Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 14:13:25 -0700 From: Jeff Tantsura To: Stewart Bryant , "Templin (US), Fred L" , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" CC: "idr@ietf.org" , "rtgwg-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-templin-atn-bgp.all@ietf.org" , "idr-chairs@ietf.org" , "rtgwg@ietf.org" Message-ID: <135A1B82-B663-4784-9DC4-FA74BDD82E86@gmail.com> Thread-Topic: [Idr] Rtgdir early review of draft-templin-atn-bgp-07 References: <153243058668.22562.6511891462599952686@ietfa.amsl.com> <7864a95d-754a-2bb9-d1b6-810202eeb0a7@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7864a95d-754a-2bb9-d1b6-810202eeb0a7@gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Rtgdir early review of draft-templin-atn-bgp-07 X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 21:13:32 -0000 RTGWG chair hat on I believe we have reached the agreement to adopt the draft in RTGWG, as it = doesn=E2=80=99t bring any changes to the protocol and describes architectural aspe= cts of the solution. Fred - please work with Stewart on addressing all the comments raised and i= f there's consensus in wg we will be proceeding with the adoption.=20 Cheers, Jeff =EF=BB=BFOn 7/25/18, 02:13, "Stewart Bryant" wrote: =20 =20 On 24/07/2018 20:53, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > Hello Stewart, > > Thank you for your effort in reviewing the document. Please see below= for > follow-up discussion: > > Fred > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant >> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2018 4:10 AM >> To: rtg-dir@ietf.org >> Cc: idr@ietf.org; rtgwg-chairs@ietf.org; draft-templin-atn-bgp.all@i= etf.org; idr-chairs@ietf.org; rtgwg@ietf.org >> Subject: [Idr] Rtgdir early review of draft-templin-atn-bgp-07 >> >> Reviewer: Stewart Bryant >> Review result: Has Issues >> >> This is basically a well written draft, although it has has a lots o= f spelling >> mistakes and needs to passed through a spell checker before a furthe= r version >> is uploaded. > Certainly we will fix that; apologies if it impacted the readability. > >> However, I have a number of issues that the chairs and authors shoul= d consider >> before deciding how to proceed. >> >> The first question to ask is whether the work belongs in RTGWG or in= IDR since >> with the exception of the reference to the optimization described i= n >> draft-templin-aerolink-82 this is a pure BGP solution. This is some= thing that >> the RTGWG chairs should discuss with the IDR chairs. They should als= o discuss >> whether the draft needs to be looked at by a BGP specialist before R= TGWG adopts >> it. > The document has been presented at RTGWG at three different IETF meet= ings > now and seems to have been well received there. So, we would like to = see it > become an RTGWG working group item so we would not have to start the > socialization process over again, but your point is well taken. I do = not have > enough experience with routing area working groups to understand all = of > the implications, so any guidance would be appreciated. =20 Actually it might also be a candidate for BESS (BGP enabled services). =20 This is a chair/AD decision as much as anything, and they are normally=20 guided by where the required expertise is. =20 >> The approach of building an overlay to separate the network from the= main BGP >> system is a sound one, indeed from both the numbers and a security p= oint of >> view, it would appear to be essential in a safety critical applicat= ion such as >> this. What bothers me is whether the author is underestimating the r= isk of >> running an application such as this over the public Internet. Whilst= as they >> explain in the security section, high profile civil users do underst= and how to >> mitigate risk and minimize the effect of attack, none of these organ= izations >> are as large a target as civil aviation flight safety, and thus I wo= uld expect >> considerable resources, even to nation state level, to be directed a= t the >> attachment points. Hopefully ICAO fully understands the risks in run= ning this >> on the public Internet as proposed. If ever there were an applicatio= n for >> inter-domain network slicing, this is it. > For civil aviation, this is indeed a critical consideration. On the o= pen public > Internet, for example, although IPsec could be used to establish secu= re > tunnels other threat vectors such as DDoS need to be considered. In m= y > understanding, ICAO is thinking about an underlay network comprising > secured physical links (e.g., fiber) and/or constructs like SD-WAN. B= ut, > the construction of the underlay I think is something that has been > taken for granted and as you observe is pivotal to the design securit= y. Indeed, I would have expected this to be on a secure network of some=20 sort either purely private or some form of VPN. However, I am sure I read in your text tha= t=20 you were considering using the Public Internet much in the way of SD-WAN. =20 > >> There is a suggestion in section 3 that for reasons of cost, globall= y unique >> ASNs would not be used. It is difficult to believe that cost is an i= ssue in an >> SoF system. What is surely needed is the most robust approach, which= in the >> long term is usually the cheapest anyway. Using global identifiers m= inimizes >> the possibility of error and issues if ever there is a routing leak,= and thus >> the decision on whether to use private or global identifiers needs s= ome careful >> thought beyond that expressed in this version of the draft. > I don't mind dropping the assertion that private AS numbers could be = used. > As you say, there is probably no downside to procuring real global AS > numbers up front even if the overlay is never connected to the global > public Internet. > >> I am worried about the text towards the end of section three which p= roposes >> splitting the network into two or more disjoint systems, since that = will surely >> lead to operation and integration issues. > Looking at that text with fresh eyes, I can see that a rewrite would = help > bring across the point we are trying to make. What we want to have is > a means for supporting multiple independent RIBs and bounding the > numbers of prefixes each RIB will be sized to carry. So, if each RIB > supported up to 1M prefixes and we had 1K RIBs, we would be able > to service 1B prefixes or even a bit more. Does that help clarify? If= so, > I will consult with co-authors to improve that text. =20 Wow, are you sure that such a system is buildable? =20 What you seem to be building is a huge unaggregated routing system.=20 People have considered that before and found that it was=20 unimplimentatble. Remember that for every unaggregated prefix in the RI= B=20 you need an entry in the FIB. The FIB in a core router is high speed=20 (expensive) memory and will be replicated on every line card. =20 I think that you really need to discuss your scaling requirements with=20 some hardware vendors to verify that the design you propose can support the required=20 aircraft population over the expected lifetime of the system. =20 What I suspect that you need is some sort of formal hierarchy or=20 layering in the system to support long term scaling, and that is going to be a lot easier if it is=20 explicitly designed in on day one. =20 > >> In section 6 consideration is given to scaling the core, which looks= basically >> under control for the existing flight profile, but with relatively l= ittle >> headroom for expansion. Given the rise in UAVs, that will surely ne= ed to be >> integrated into a common flight safety system, I am concerned as to = whether the >> authors have allowed sufficient room for expansion. Again hopefully = the flight >> specialists have taken this into account and this is not a problem. > The upper bound in terms of scaling we were targeting was up to 1B > prefixes carried as BGP routes in order to allow for expansion. You a= re > right to observe that we are at the advent of wide-scale deployment o= f > UAVs, but this network would be only for those UAVs that fly to, from > or through airspace controlled by Air Traffic Controllers (ATCs) - me= aning > it would only be for UAVs that take off and land at airports. Well, you are the application expert here, but that seems to be a=20 critical assumption that you need to test in multiple geographies. Thinking about the Londo= n=20 airports, that is quite a restriction. =20 > For the future, > the types of UAVs that will eventually do that include unmanned cargo > delivery freighters and the like. But, we would only be expecting a f= ew > thousands, ten-thousands, or hundred-thousansds of those; certainly > not millions and millions. I am always reminded that when IPv4 was designed, and (in much the same= =20 era Ethernet) their address sizes were an approximation to infinity. They are now a=20 long way from infinity. This will be an expensive system to replace so it needs migration path=20 to its infinity. =20 > > For small UAVs that stay away from the airports, however, there is > potential for many millions of those or more. For them, the FAA and > NASA have a concept known as "Unmanned (air) Traffic Management" > or "UTM". The UTM would need to be a separate network unto itself, > but we believe these same BGP principles could apply there. > =20 Best regards =20 Stewart =20 =20 From nobody Wed Jul 25 15:27:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E9CF130E4B; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 15:22:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aXJfhbxfZSRd; Wed, 25 Jul 2018 15:22:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 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From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Stewart Bryant , "rtg-dir@ietf.org" CC: "idr@ietf.org" , "rtgwg-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-templin-atn-bgp.all@ietf.org" , "idr-chairs@ietf.org" , "rtgwg@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Idr] Rtgdir early review of draft-templin-atn-bgp-07 Thread-Index: AQHUIz7jU5XGWh1/CkCJaib5rfbbEaSev/HwgAFebICAAFzP0A== Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 22:22:19 +0000 Message-ID: <3a7ff55381db4adfa1b666356387a843@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <153243058668.22562.6511891462599952686@ietfa.amsl.com> <7864a95d-754a-2bb9-d1b6-810202eeb0a7@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7864a95d-754a-2bb9-d1b6-810202eeb0a7@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.137.12.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Rtgdir early review of draft-templin-atn-bgp-07 X-BeenThere: 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ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rob-sh.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AWzT6GxuqY6X for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 20:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x229.google.com (mail-oi0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D1C7B1294D7 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 20:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x229.google.com with SMTP id l10-v6so15653309oii.0 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 20:10:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rob-sh.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=esp5YDGQBd9gtfmGcXWomPFiVXasmNbupTduX/fTYdU=; b=y19Wn31PVQNQT5PW3ji8AFL6yYoVewauf5P5KtaP2VMuJYXndXtX66yWkPOH1jwLgk 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X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpcorZApNuYFLDncWpXVWQZWKBgoNcrFFIC0Bh2gFGdHUd0HjQyzbfOb42irpXwfXVFuHvvNONThgVlO9C3AioM= X-Received: by 2002:aca:ddd4:: with SMTP id u203-v6mr13561412oig.204.1532833853733; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 20:10:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <00ac01d42013$f5d7b910$e1872b30$@ndzh.com> <9e8263dc30654287a0875afea50349bb@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <003101d42033$a9f84cb0$fde8e610$@ndzh.com> <20180720161606.GD10999@pfrc.org> <964D6A12-3D2A-4423-8974-04CB7948AEE5@gmail.com> <4135c01e23924ac79dc50bf0e14ecea1@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <20180721205635.GS11393@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: From: Rob Shakir Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 20:10:42 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" Cc: Gert Doering , idr wg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005a0d5f05721ab165" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP-LS vs gRPC/gpb or... X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 03:10:59 -0000 --0000000000005a0d5f05721ab165 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (Full disclosure: I have spent a lot of time on gRPC-based streaming telemetry and have deployed it at scale.) SNMP is clearly broken for this application, we need event-based push for changes to a subset of the data set for any kind of efficiency. The scale of periodically streaming BGP-RIB contents is too much for most systems, let alone needing to do it with client-initiated polling. Streaming telemetry absolutely needs reliable delivery for event-based delivery, otherwise there is a significant concern around loss of events. My colleague Carl Lebsack and I spoke at NANOG around our work on ST, further details: slides , video . There are a number of reasons that the implementation of ST can be more robust than SNMP -- particularly, these are focused around giving the device (target) more control over how it generates and sends data. Personally, I do not really buy the "BGP has a lower operational overhead for deployment" point. Yes, it is more familiar, but the BGP-LS collector is unlikely to be a familiar vendor device in any operational environment (otherwise, how do I pull this data into another system?). This means that there is still overhead of deploying a new BGPd somewhere off-device that needs to be dealt with, and the configuration thereof. In my experience, this overhead is significantly greater than "do I need to understand another transport?". As I recall, there were few operational voices in IDR at the time of BGP-LS saying this... it seems to me that we might have been swayed more by the fact that the folks involved in that discussion had BGP code written :-) I continue to think that overloading BGP to carry this information wasn't the right choice for the problem space discussed, and am unclear that we made a good architectural decision for the "distributing IGP information across multiple areas" case Jeff mentions above. There are still (to me) significant robustness and fate-sharing concerns that make BGP-LS undesirable for deployment (I raised these at the time of adoption , and AFAICS nothing has really changed since). I would encourage moving towards a single channel for network telemetry - including BGP-LS - being the right way forward. Particularly, given that we do not need protocol action and drafts to be published to put that data there. Right now, we've just created an industry in BGP-LS-support-for-foo drafts in IDR based on each doc in LSR. Just my $0.02, =C2=A30.02, and =E2=82=AC0.02, r. On Sat, 21 Jul 2018 at 19:01 Jakob Heitz (jheitz) wrote: > Yes. > > SNMP is pull based. That means the management system has to ask for the > routing table. > The router sends the whole table, even if nothing or very little has > changed. > A huge waste of resources. It makes things horribly slow. > SNMP is udp based, so packets drop. > In many cases, the OID structure of SNMP is a transpose of the way the > data is stored > in the router, making data retrieval very inefficient. > SNMP has no ability to snapshot a set of data: each item is independent o= f > the next. Statistics change as they are being sent. One statistic will be > inconsistent with the next one, because it was sampled at a different tim= e. > > Streaming telemetry has choices of transport and push/pull. > The best way is push mode and a tcp based transport, like GRPC. > Routes are only sent when they change. Unchanged data is not sent. > > Frequently changing statistics may be better retrieved using the pull > model. > > Regards, > Jakob. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gert Doering > Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2018 1:57 PM > To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) > Cc: Randy Bush ; idr wg > Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP-LS vs gRPC/gpb or... > > Hi, > > On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 01:24:51AM +0000, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) wrote: > > And they open large horrible bugs against it, which is why telemetry wa= s > invented. > > And these large horrible bugs disappear over night by wrapping existing > information in a new encoding and a new transport? > > Impressive :) > > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster > -- > have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? > > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael > Emmer > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 <+49%2089%2032356444> USt-IdNr.: > DE813185279 > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > --0000000000005a0d5f05721ab165 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
(Full disclosure: I have spent a lot of time on gRPC-based= streaming telemetry and have deployed it at scale.)

SNM= P is clearly broken for this application, we need event-based push for chan= ges to a subset of the data set for any kind of efficiency. The scale of pe= riodically streaming BGP-RIB contents is too much for most systems, let alo= ne needing to do it with client-initiated polling.

Streaming telemetry absolutely needs reliable delivery for event-based del= ivery, otherwise there is a significant concern around loss of events. My c= olleague Carl Lebsack and I spoke at NANOG around our work on ST, further d= etails: slides, video. There are a number of reasons that the implem= entation of ST can be more robust than SNMP -- particularly, these are focu= sed around giving the device (target) more control over how it generates an= d sends data.=C2=A0

Personally, I do not really bu= y the "BGP has a lower operational overhead for deployment" point= . Yes, it is more familiar, but the BGP-LS collector is unlikely to be a fa= miliar vendor device in any operational environment (otherwise, how do I pu= ll this data into another system?). This means that there is still overhead= of deploying a new BGPd somewhere off-device that needs to be dealt with, = and the configuration thereof. In my experience, this overhead is significa= ntly greater than "do I need to understand another transport?". A= s I recall, there were few operational voices in IDR at the time of BGP-LS = saying this... it seems to me that we might have been swayed more by the fa= ct that the folks involved in that discussion had BGP code written :-)

I continue to think that overloading BGP to carry this= information wasn't the right choice for the problem space discussed, a= nd am unclear that we made a good architectural decision for the "dist= ributing IGP information across multiple areas" case Jeff mentions abo= ve. There are still (to me) significant robustness and fate-sharing concern= s that make BGP-LS undesirable for deployment (I raised these at the time = of adoption, and AFAICS nothing has really changed since).
I would encourage moving towards a single channel for network = telemetry - including BGP-LS - being the right way forward. Particularly, g= iven that we do not need protocol action and drafts to be published to put = that data there. Right now, we've just created an industry in BGP-LS-su= pport-for-foo drafts in IDR based on each doc in LSR.

<= div>Just my $0.02, =C2=A30.02, and =E2=82=AC0.02,
r.
<= br>
On Sat, 21 Jul 2018 at 19:01= Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Yes.

SNMP is pull based. That means the management system has to ask for the rou= ting table.
The router sends the whole table, even if nothing or very little has change= d.
A huge waste of resources. It makes things horribly slow.
SNMP is udp based, so packets drop.
In many cases, the OID structure of SNMP is a transpose of the way the data= is stored
in the router, making data retrieval very inefficient.
SNMP has no ability to snapshot a set of data: each item is independent of = the next. Statistics change as they are being sent. One statistic will be i= nconsistent with the next one, because it was sampled at a different time.<= br>
Streaming telemetry has choices of transport and push/pull.
The best way is push mode and a tcp based transport, like GRPC.
Routes are only sent when they change. Unchanged data is not sent.

Frequently changing statistics may be better retrieved using the pull model= .

Regards,
Jakob.


-----Original Message-----
From: Gert Doering <= gert@space.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2018 1:57 PM
To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com>
Cc: Randy Bush <randy= @psg.com>; idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP-LS vs gRPC/gpb or...

Hi,

On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 01:24:51AM +0000, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) wrote:
> And they open large horrible bugs against it, which is why telemetry w= as invented.

And these large horrible bugs disappear over night by wrapping existing
information in a new encoding and a new transport?

Impressive :)

Gert Doering
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- NetMaster
--
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

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--0000000000005a0d5f05721ab165-- From nobody Sat Jul 28 20:15:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF815130934 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 20:15:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rob-sh.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cV9dGOu5Edcc for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 20:15:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x231.google.com (mail-oi0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1A281294D7 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 20:15:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x231.google.com with SMTP id v8-v6so15659557oie.5 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 20:15:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rob-sh.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=SdRA2oEb9HxNlq6r/GEABfyAzESsFThxXAuwqoOxxnQ=; b=AdWpGtofUhYH41id8uA4a367EqvqIV5UVkZn1gPXuuc+aCeh20BnV7f+Or4Lqd0XVE idRVen3zGmvEie3qkA7cKEG7rSj/cdIMOmRJxVlxt6/XzxUDEuHwciabbctXoMYe0cY9 PocmwLCsd2dseHM6q1/kzz49cJLbio3M9iQP9WCRTKkkBPYrG/xpSN6ZCatlLWcKUrUD igZQ1uZwOAnbcPUDQJ9gcB2CeWzrQ6ZR816TPbpfkSgxt4S6nRzzhNa58q87BRhNK8CY A2YjQ5oERhb1ZrwXdYpw1x35LcL7IlRD1U27LksA162vhYc85vGxKmnRd5WbGin3P37j jO4g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SdRA2oEb9HxNlq6r/GEABfyAzESsFThxXAuwqoOxxnQ=; b=ldZd61o5r4GhmwF0vpiXrH11vtj5sc5fFqlL+xDaDh2DC4khPp7G4pa+wgI+1KWA2A DqkGJqrYbyzUiR20vxCa5W5MbktYd177FRaCf9uNDyxu73/bsc7LBEkugcTufqdTjFNw Z3hKVeX25tdgl9KDBgHzQTVnJx8OJqM5ZWMf0eddlV0yIG3mxEyZkBapoMQzH7I2ogiO nFavZpR0A6FStJS/psMOXmreF8gxOyDOyX7VTU0Z8PXv0EcCzh8YWRH8B7dkAa+omHwv eB/1GEtmIt6NMiYo1jnM+R9xGaANkMmCnyyklzTuGZOOCkOXLNg1EmSKi95ScPaSyh3s 6CLA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlEeWgrhtGTHxPzHFq5SDL0gqlvUqqm9klZX1nGj/LgEw0ik54Ti ULonZpjv6DU/tXTqw1uE9ulzLKu97MiY+6CgY7pZ4bC1 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpffobNUK2pLSzEuOtYkTqsjNEyfs7tKYGstbuThgeaRIkch0RW4VDJefRb3gLxFuZOYlXKbCdQNW/ykzqCKU2w= X-Received: by 2002:aca:e2d3:: with SMTP id z202-v6mr13401805oig.121.1532834116749; Sat, 28 Jul 2018 20:15:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Rob Shakir Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 20:15:04 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Stone, Andrew (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" Cc: "idr@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000075e1405721ac142" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] capability discovery - draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 03:15:21 -0000 --000000000000075e1405721ac142 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andrew, I'm not sure this is a new problem. For example, if I am performing route injection from some external source to an RR, I have no knowledge that the downstream systems that I wish to advertise it to support the that I'm injecting for. There must be some other means of discovery. There are other problems with injecting SR-TE policies via an RR infrastructure -- consider that even session failure is undetectable in this scenario (the remote device might have gone away entirely, or not have a session to the RR). To me, this is simply something that we need to consider the deployment scenarios for (a good use for the "Operational Considerations" of this draft), rather than adding protocol machinery in BGP for. The mechanism to discover liveliness, and whether a policy is programmed on the target node should be solved generically. Cheers, r. On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 at 12:54 Stone, Andrew (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) < andrew.stone@nokia.com> wrote: > Hi all, > > > > Comment raised in IDR meeting regarding > draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy: > > > > Assuming an architecture deployment where a controller is peered to a RR > supporting address families bgp-ls and sr-te-policies, how does the > controller know which downstream routers in the network support BGP > advertised SR-TE Policies? as this information (peer session address > families) is being masked by the RR? For example, if the controller wante= d > to install a BSID on a transient node in the middle of the network, how > will the controller know that: > > > > 1) node in network is currently talking BGP > > 2) node supports sr-te-policy address family > > > > Comparatively to PCEP, the PCEP session and its capability TLVs informs > the controller of this. > > > > Advertising SR-TE policy via BGP needs a similar ability or a description > on how best to address this. > > > > Some suggestions could include: > > > > - perhaps advertising capability inside of BGP-LS > - But this means router needs to talk BGP-LS or have to relay it > through IGP to reach the BGP-LS speaker, similar to > draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-msd and > draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd > - Transient downstream router advertises the capability into using > same SAFI as sr-te-policy but a different NLRI with a target of one, m= any > or all controllers > - external learning such as via BMP, netconf, statically defined on > controller=E2=80=A6 etc? > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Thanks > > Andrew > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > --000000000000075e1405721ac142 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Andrew,

I'm not sure this is a new = problem. For example, if I am performing route injection from some external= source to an RR, I have no knowledge that the downstream systems that I wi= sh to advertise it to support the <AFI,SAFI> that I'm injecting f= or. There must be some other means of discovery.

T= here are other problems with injecting SR-TE policies via an RR infrastruct= ure -- consider that even session failure is undetectable in this scenario = (the remote device might have gone away entirely, or not have a session to = the RR). To me, this is simply something that we need to consider the deplo= yment scenarios for (a good use for the "Operational Considerations&qu= ot; of this draft), rather than adding protocol machinery in BGP for. The m= echanism to discover liveliness, and whether a policy is programmed on the = target node should be solved generically.

Cheers,<= /div>
r.

On = Fri, 20 Jul 2018 at 12:54 Stone, Andrew (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <andrew.stone@nokia.com> wrote:

Hi a= ll,

<= /u>=C2=A0

Comm= ent raised in IDR meeting regarding draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-polic= y:

<= /u>=C2=A0

Assu= ming an architecture deployment where a controller is peered to a RR suppor= ting address families bgp-ls and sr-te-policies, how does the controller kn= ow which downstream routers in the network support BGP advertised SR-TE Policies? as this information (peer session a= ddress families) is being masked by the RR? For example, if the controller = wanted to install a BSID on a transient node in the middle of the network, = how will the controller know that:

<= /u>=C2=A0

1) n= ode in network is currently talking BGP

2) n= ode supports sr-te-policy address family

<= /u>=C2=A0

Comp= aratively to PCEP, the PCEP session and its capability TLVs informs the con= troller of this.

<= /u>=C2=A0

Adve= rtising SR-TE policy via BGP needs a similar ability or a description on ho= w best to address this.

<= /u>=C2=A0

Some= suggestions could include:

<= /u>=C2=A0

  • perhaps advertising cap= ability inside of BGP-LS
    • But this means router n= eeds to talk BGP-LS or have to relay it through IGP to reach the BGP-LS spe= aker, similar to draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ls-segment-routing-msd and draft-ietf-isis-segment-routing-msd
  • Transient downstre= am router advertises the capability into using same SAFI as sr-te-policy bu= t a different NLRI with a target of one, many or all controllers
  • external learning such as via BMP, netconf, staticall= y defined on controller=E2=80=A6 etc?

<= /u>=C2=A0

Thou= ghts?

<= /u>=C2=A0

Than= ks

Andr= ew

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PC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_7954040170324A3E9AD3E650AD9C1E7Dnokiacom_-- From nobody Tue Jul 31 15:09:38 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29282130E89 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 15:09:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aYcd0xTZ3ayg for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 15:09:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with 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(8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w6VM5UkC028559; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 18:09:28 -0400 Received: from alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp7.sbc.com [144.160.229.24]) by m0049463.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 2kjywg0f5b-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 31 Jul 2018 18:09:27 -0400 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w6VM9RZl026188; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 18:09:27 -0400 Received: from zlp27125.vci.att.com (zlp27125.vci.att.com [135.66.87.52]) by alpi155.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w6VM9J1q026104; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 18:09:21 -0400 Received: from zlp27125.vci.att.com (zlp27125.vci.att.com [127.0.0.1]) by zlp27125.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTP id D5B0816A3EE; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 22:09:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from MISOUT7MSGHUBAH.ITServices.sbc.com (unknown [130.9.129.152]) by zlp27125.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTPS id B397716A3EB; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 22:09:19 +0000 (GMT) Received: from MISOUT7MSGUSRCD.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.4.64]) by MISOUT7MSGHUBAH.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.9.129.152]) with mapi id 14.03.0408.000; Tue, 31 Jul 2018 18:09:19 -0400 From: "UTTARO, JAMES" To: =?utf-8?B?emNqaWFuZyjokovmsrvmmKUp?= , "idr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Idr] Fw: WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery(Internet mail) Thread-Index: AQHUIooGv4eGR4+up0aXdjX/QRJ7raSp8DKg Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 22:09:18 +0000 Message-ID: References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <001201d41f44$b65ef2a0$231cd7e0$@ndzh.com> <001801d4201b$50989610$f1c9c230$@ndzh.com> <61c2eb0c-e9dd-4dc5-9ae4-8a98acaae0be.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.10.144.121] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B17A6910EEDD1F45980687268941550F3678AC31MISOUT7MSGUSRCD_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure 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Hi John,
> It's recursive, that might be a reason too.

Where did you g= et such impression from ? Wide communities (or registered wide communities = specs) are not recursive and no nesting or inheritance was ever the plan at= the community level at least as far as my own intentions were/are.=C2=A0

If there is some text i= n the current draft which makes you think so let's edit it asap.=C2=A0<= /div>

Many thx,
Robert.



On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 5:53 A= M, John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net> wrote:
(speaking as an individual WG contributor)

I think it is a big mistake to suggest that the reason flexcomms/wide = comms hasn't progressed is that it's variable-length. It's much= more ambitious than any of the fixed-length stuff we have, that's a re= ason. It's recursive, that might be a reason too. But just because it's variable-length? Not buying it.

$0.02,

--John

On Jul 19, 2018, at 11:48 PM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz=3D40cisco.= com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Not at all. Experience has shown that fixed works very well.=
Large community went from concept to RFC and code complete with= all the routing policy code in 2 years,
because we could reuse the community code.=
Variable length communities started in 2002
The code will have to be written from scratch.
=C2=A0
Regards,
Jakob.
=C2=A0
From:=C2=A0Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org>=C2=A0On Behalf Of=C2=A0= Robert Raszuk
Sent:=C2= =A0Thursday, July 19, 2018 4:21 PM
To:=C2=A0= Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> Cc:=C2=A0= idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject:= =C2=A0Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your p= resentations ...)
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
> If we must do fixed
=C2=A0
I do not think we must do fixe= d. I see no reason to stick with fixed.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Experience has proven that fix= ed does not work .. we see this clear in the proposals being submitted and = even presented at IDR. Time to learn from past mistakes.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Thx,
Robert
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:11 AM, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:
On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 12:52:44AM +0200, Robert Raszuk wrote:
> 4. New additional RTC SAFI for 30 octets XXXL ext communities is ... i= nsane
> - not only obvious but then you would need to get complex dealing with=
> different/opposite filtering results from different RTCs SAFIs.

I would like to offer a very specific reductio ad absurdum:
I propose that the next version of communities we do, if they must be fixed=
length, must be 253 octets of value and 255 bytes of total size.

If we must do fixed, do it and be done for a long while.

-- Jeff

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
=C2=A0
_________________________________= ______________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.= org_mailman_listinfo_idr&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scb= fh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DhLt5iDJpw7ukqICc0hoT7A&m= =3D2hIY6rLbAvAIj9fLY9vdCZMdoxjfktxXE0SPGa4SW9Y&s=3DANHXD= EVazzM11nlzarMDH82yonWcxAhaK1ABXs_A62w&e=3D


--0000000000005d082b05716a21fb-- From nobody Fri Jul 20 03:25:50 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FA53130F27 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 03:25:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.936 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.936 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KobCkBkX98Wk for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 03:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (50-245-122-97-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.245.122.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C9E0130F1A for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 03:25:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=31.133.145.18; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Jakob Heitz \(jheitz\)'" , "'John Scudder'" Cc: "'idr wg'" , "'Robert Raszuk'" References: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> <3a8b0cff4cdf4968b950d5e43810602a@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 06:25:19 -0400 Message-ID: <00ac01d42013$f5d7b910$e1872b30$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00AD_01D41FF2.6EC86300" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQIo2/Wg+a5thni6H2NWNaUnCtok6AHfg0xWAnoDlNoB2HRBOwI7tV5mAc6h9wijnIt28A== Content-Language: en-us X-Antivirus: AVG (VPS 180720-0, 07/20/2018), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Not-Tested X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:25:49 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AD_01D41FF2.6EC86300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jakob: Two groups of people use BGP. The BGP-LS people who feel adding TLVs and TLVs of information is acceptable. You claim 1 TLVs is "too much" so that we must spin multiple sizes of communities. Hmm. Cheerily, Sue From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jakob Heitz (jheitz) Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 12:05 AM To: John Scudder Cc: idr wg; Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) The thing is I want to reuse the extended community code as much as possible. The routing policy code and its associated configuration, show, xml and debug commands is the bulk of it. The more you deviate, the harder it gets. Variable length is a big deviation. Regards, Jakob. From: John Scudder Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 8:53 PM To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) Cc: Robert Raszuk ; Jeffrey Haas ; idr wg Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) (speaking as an individual WG contributor) I think it is a big mistake to suggest that the reason flexcomms/wide comms hasn't progressed is that it's variable-length. It's much more ambitious than any of the fixed-length stuff we have, that's a reason. It's recursive, that might be a reason too. But just because it's variable-length? Not buying it. $0.02, --John On Jul 19, 2018, at 11:48 PM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) wrote: Not at all. Experience has shown that fixed works very well. Large community went from concept to RFC and code complete with all the routing policy code in 2 years, because we could reuse the community code. Variable length communities started in 2002 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lange-flexible-bgp-communities-00 The code will have to be written from scratch. Regards, Jakob. From: Idr < idr-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 4:21 PM To: Jeffrey Haas < jhaas@pfrc.org> Cc: idr wg < idr@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) > If we must do fixed I do not think we must do fixed. I see no reason to stick with fixed. Experience has proven that fixed does not work .. we see this clear in the proposals being submitted and even presented at IDR. Time to learn from past mistakes. Thx, Robert On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:11 AM, Jeffrey Haas < jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote: On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 12:52:44AM +0200, Robert Raszuk wrote: > 4. New additional RTC SAFI for 30 octets XXXL ext communities is ... insane > - not only obvious but then you would need to get complex dealing with > different/opposite filtering results from different RTCs SAFIs. I would like to offer a very specific reductio ad absurdum: I propose that the next version of communities we do, if they must be fixed length, must be 253 octets of value and 255 bytes of total size. If we must do fixed, do it and be done for a long while. -- Jeff _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf..org/mailman/listinfo/idr _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_li stinfo_idr&d=DwICAg&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=hLt5iDJp w7ukqICc0hoT7A&m=2hIY6rLbAvAIj9fLY9vdCZMdoxjfktxXE0SPGa4SW9Y&s=ANHXDEVazzM11 nlzarMDH82yonWcxAhaK1ABXs_A62w&e= ------=_NextPart_000_00AD_01D41FF2.6EC86300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jakob:

<individual contributor hat on>

 

Two groups of people use BGP.  The BGP-LS people who feel adding = TLVs and TLVs of information is acceptable. =  

You claim 1 TLVs is “too much” so that we must spin = multiple sizes of communities.   =  

Hmm.

 

<individual contributor hat still on>

 

Cheerily, Sue

 

From:= = Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jakob Heitz = (jheitz)
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 12:05 AM
To: = John Scudder
Cc: idr wg; Robert Raszuk
Subject: Re: = [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations = ...)

 

The = thing is I want to reuse the extended community code as much as = possible.

The = routing policy code and its associated configuration, show, xml and = debug commands is the bulk of it.

The more you deviate, the harder it = gets.

Variable length is a big = deviation.

 

Regards,

Jakob.

 

From: John = Scudder <jgs@juniper.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 = 8:53 PM
To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) = <jheitz@cisco.com>
Cc: Robert Raszuk = <robert@raszuk.net>; Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>; idr wg = <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized = communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations = ...)

 

(speaking as = an individual WG contributor)

 

I = think it is a big mistake to suggest that the reason flexcomms/wide = comms hasn't progressed is that it's variable-length. It's much more = ambitious than any of the fixed-length stuff we have, that's a reason. = It's recursive, that might be a reason too. But just because it's = variable-length? Not buying it.

 

$0.02,

 

--John

 

On Jul 19, 2018, at 11:48 PM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) = <jheitz=3D40cisco.com@= dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

 

Not at all. Experience has shown that fixed works = very well.

Large = community went from concept to RFC and code complete with all the = routing policy code in 2 years,

because we could reuse the community = code.

Variable length communities started in = 2002

The code will have to be written from = scratch.

 

Regards,

Jakob.

 

From: Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Robert = Raszuk
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 4:21 = PM
To: Jeffrey = Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized = communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations = ...)

 

 

> If we must do = fixed

 

I do not think we must do = fixed. I see no reason to stick with = fixed. 

 

Experience has proven that = fixed does not work .. we see this clear in the proposals being = submitted and even presented at IDR. Time to learn from past = mistakes. 

 

Thx,
Robert

 

 

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:11 AM, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> = wrote:

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 12:52:44AM = +0200, Robert Raszuk wrote:
> 4. New additional RTC SAFI for 30 = octets XXXL ext communities is ... insane
> - not only obvious but = then you would need to get complex dealing with
> = different/opposite filtering results from different RTCs SAFIs.

I = would like to offer a very specific reductio ad absurdum:
I propose = that the next version of communities we do, if they must be = fixed
length, must be 253 octets of value and 255 bytes of total = size.

If we must do fixed, do it and be done for a long = while.

-- = Jeff

_______________________________________________
Idr = mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf..org/mailman/listinfo/idr<= /a>

__________= _____________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_ma= ilman_listinfo_idr&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb= 3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DhLt5iDJpw7ukqICc0hoT7A&m=3D2hIY6rLbAvAIj9fLY9vdC= ZMdoxjfktxXE0SPGa4SW9Y&s=3DANHXDEVazzM11nlzarMDH82yonWcxAhaK1ABXs_A62= w&e=3D

 

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X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:00:36 -0000 --_000_314ADCA971D046EB949F58F82B473DC8junipernet_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Jul 20, 2018, at 4:32 AM, Robert Raszuk > wrote: Where did you get such impression from ? Wide communities (or registered wi= de communities specs) are not recursive and no nesting or inheritance was e= ver the plan at the community level at least as far as my own intentions we= re/are. No doubt I've misremembered, I didn't go back to refer to the spec (nor hav= e I now). I'll withdraw that remark and let stand the "variable-length is n= ot actually that hard" comment. :-) Since I'm taking up the list's time anyway, I'll add that yes, of course va= riable is slightly harder than fixed-length as Jakob says -- taken in isola= tion. I'm not at all convinced it's harder than every year or two implement= ing (specifying, maintaining) yet another slightly different fixed-size var= iant. (That comment addressed to the original topic and not to you, of cour= se.) --John --_000_314ADCA971D046EB949F58F82B473DC8junipernet_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <1B8CA7DA29D7674AA7D22B41C72855E1@namprd05.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Jul 20, 2018, at 4:32 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

Where did you get such impression from ? Wide communities (or registered wi= de communities specs) are not recursive and no nesting or inheritance was e= ver the plan at the community level at least as far as my own intentions we= re/are. 

No doubt I've misremembered, I didn't go back to refer to the spec (no= r have I now). I'll withdraw that remark and let stand the "variable-l= ength is not actually that hard" comment. :-)

Since I'm taking up the list's time anyway, I'll add that yes, of cour= se variable is slightly harder than fixed-length as Jakob says -- taken in = isolation. I'm not at all convinced it's harder than every year or two impl= ementing (specifying, maintaining) yet another slightly different fixed-size variant. (That comment addressed= to the original topic and not to you, of course.)

--John
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dGhlIFdHIExDIGZvciBvdGhlciBkcmFmdHMuJm5ic3A7IFdlIGRlY2lkZWQgdG8gd2FpdCB1bnRp bCBzb21lIG9mIHRob3NlIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gd2VyZSBjbGVhcmVkIHVwIHByaW9yIHRvIHN0YXJ0 aW5nIGEgbmV3IFdHIEFkb3B0aW9uIGNhbGwuPC9wPjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPiZuYnNw OzwvcD48cCBjbGFzcz0iTXNvTm9ybWFsIj4mbmJzcDs8L3A+PHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+ U3VzYW4gSGFyZXMgPC9wPjwvZGl2PjwvZGl2PjxkaXYgIHN0eWxlPSJsaW5lLWhlaWdodDoyMC4w cHg7Y2xlYXI6Ym90aDsiPjxiciA+PC9kaXY+PC9kaXY+PC9kaXY+ ------=ALIBOUNDARY_3614_579a1940_5b51c392_2fe172-- From nobody Fri Jul 20 04:18:10 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DEF512F1AC; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 04:18:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.947 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.947 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ld6WyELX6mG9; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 04:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (50-245-122-97-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.245.122.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B5FE128BAC; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 04:18:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=forwardok (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=31.133.145.18; From: "Susan Hares" To: =?UTF-8?B?J+W+kOWwj+iZjijkuYnlhYgpJw==?= , "'Idr'" , "'idr'" Cc: "'draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery'" References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com>, <001201d41f44$b65ef2a0$231cd7e0$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 07:17:58 -0400 Message-ID: <001801d4201b$50989610$f1c9c230$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01D41FF9.C988CAD0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQGRTPZtbKn53OktwvULcZwhWaIQQAGfEnV1AcaflJOlAm55gA== Content-Language: en-us X-Antivirus: AVG (VPS 180720-0, 07/20/2018), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Not-Tested X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:18:09 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01D41FF9.C988CAD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Xiaohu: =20 Our next step is to gather requirements for the IDR neighbor discovery = from the WG. We would especially be interested in feedback on = requirements from operators of data centers. If you know of an = operators of medium data centers who could send requirements to the IDR = chairs or the IDR list, it would be helpful. =20 Cheerily, Susan Hares=20 =20 From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ???(??) Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 7:12 AM To: Idr; idr Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery =20 =20 Hi Sue, =20 Thanks for launching the WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery. =20 Hi all, =20 There has been one implementation developed by a switch vendor. = Furthermore at least two additional implementations from other vendors = are under construction. If any of you have any concrete and technical = concerns on this mechanism, please feel free to tell us and we would = like to verify your concerns on the implementation and then give you = feedbacks. =20 Best regards, Xiaohu ------------------------------------------------------------------ From:Susan Hares Send = Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8819=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B) = 17:59 To:idr Cc:draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery = Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery =20 This closes the 2 week adoption for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16).=20 =20 The WG chairs conclude on my original questions that:=20 1) There is WG interest to have an auto-discovery mechanism=20 that will work for BGP peers in Data Centers =20 2) There is some WG interest having this work in other deployments.=20 =20 3) There is no consensus on the mechanisms=20 (BGP hellos or other mechanisms)=20 Or requirements for the mechanisms.=20 =20 4) There is WG consensus and AD Consensus that we should=20 collaborate with LSVR. One mechanism for both would=20 be good, but it needs to fit the requirements set by the WG. =20 =20 There is no consensus on adoption this draft.=20 =20 During today=E2=80=99s IDR session (18:10-19:10), we will have a=20 discussion on the requirements for the auto-discovery mechanisms.=20 We will start by reviewing the LSVR requirement set. =20 If our discussions today do not come to a clear conclusion,=20 the chairs are willing to sponsor an interim on the topic.=20 =20 Susan Hares and John Scudder.=20 =20 From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares Sent: Monday, July 2, 2018 1:09 PM To: idr@ietf.org Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org Subject: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery =20 Greetings:=20 =20 This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16). =20 =20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/ =20 The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response = to this email. I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing = co-authors to respond by July 7th. =20 =20 The WG should consider the following:=20 1) Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers = within Data Centers?=20 2) Does this mechanism work for other deployments?=20 =20 3) If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? =20 Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc).=20 =20 4) Does this interact with any of the LSVR work?=20 =20 I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through = some of the WG LC for other drafts. We decided to wait until some of = those discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption = call. =20 =20 Susan Hares=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01D41FF9.C988CAD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Xiaohu:

 

Our next step is to = gather requirements for the IDR neighbor discovery from the WG. =C2=A0We = would especially be interested in feedback on requirements from = operators of data centers.=C2=A0 If you know of an operators of medium = data centers who could send requirements to the IDR chairs or the IDR = list, it would be helpful.

 

Cheerily, Susan Hares =

 

From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ???(??)
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 7:12 AM
To: = Idr; idr
Cc: = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery
Subject: Re: [Idr] WG = adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

 

=  

= Hi Sue,

=  

= Thanks for launching the WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery.

=  

= Hi all,

=  

= There has been one implementation developed by a switch vendor. = Furthermore at least two additional implementations from other = vendors are under construction. If any of you have any concrete and = technical concerns on this mechanism, please feel free to tell = us and we would like to verify your concerns on the implementation = and then give you feedbacks.

=  

= Best regards,

= Xiaohu

= ------------------------------------------------------------------

= From:Susan Hares = <shares@ndzh.com>

= Send Time:2018=E5=B9=B4= 7=E6=9C=88= 19=E6=97=A5= (=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B= ) 17:59

= To:idr <idr@ietf.org>

= Cc:draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery = <draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org>

= Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

=  

This closes the 2 week = adoption for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

(July 2 =E2=80=93 July = 16).

 

The WG chairs conclude = on my original questions that:

1)  There is WG interest = to have an auto-discovery mechanism

that will work for BGP peers in Data = Centers

 

2)  There is some WG =  interest having this work

in other deployments.

 

3)  There is no consensus = on the mechanisms

(BGP hellos or other mechanisms)

Or requirements for the mechanisms.

 

4)  There is WG consensus = and AD Consensus that we should

collaborate with LSVR. One mechanism for both would =

be good, but it needs to fit the requirements = set

by the WG.  

 

There is no consensus = on adoption this draft.

 

During today=E2=80=99s = IDR session (18:10-19:10), we will have a

discussion on the = requirements for the auto-discovery mechanisms.

We will start by = reviewing the LSVR requirement set.

 

If our discussions = today do not come to a clear conclusion,

the chairs are willing = to sponsor an interim on the topic.

 

Susan Hares and John = Scudder.

 

= From:= Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan = Hares
Sent: Monday, July 2, 2018 1:09 PM
To: = idr@ietf.org
Cc: = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org
Subject: [Idr] WG = adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

 

Greetings: =

 

This begins a 2 week WG = adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =E2=80=93 = July 16). 

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-= autodiscovery/

 

The authors of this draft = should send their IPR statements in response to this email.  I hope = the authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors to respond by July = 7th. 

 

The WG should consider the = following:

1)      Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism = for peers within Data Centers?

2)      Does this mechanism work for other deployments? =

 

3)      If so, should be passed in BGP Hello = message? 

Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. = LLDP, BFD, etc).

 

4)      Does this interact with any of the LSVR work? =

 

I want to thank the = authors for their patience while we sorted through some of the WG LC for = other drafts.  We decided to wait until some of those discussion = were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption = call.

 

 

Susan Hares =

 

=
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PC9kaXY+PC9kaXY+PC9kaXY+ ------=ALIBOUNDARY_13851_48bc4940_5b51cc4b_2fdd3c-- From nobody Fri Jul 20 05:05:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E65F127AC2; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 05:05:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=icloud.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P-QPlcVadmNy; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 05:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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Kky+n1n38I0dE98xRJghwv9iIIzxq9A8JN82VFO1M3Nk/+7TweiPa/ZpN0shFSFmtY b3uJx9LU5jshB1HsIvAvz7RI8LN3+Wqe2qWCbzqwZoJMQroXuYBUxesafq/eBrt6gW YH4Rui0oNUvfw== Received: from icloud.com ([127.0.0.1]) by ms11p00im-qufv17110601.me.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.1.2.20170607 64bit (built Jun 7 2017)) with ESMTPSA id <0PC500C40YW21820@ms11p00im-qufv17110601.me.com>; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:04:56 +0000 (GMT) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:,, definitions=2018-07-20_03:,, signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1807200139 Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:04:50 +0000 (UTC) From: guntervandeveldecc@icloud.com To: Susan Hares , Idr , idr , =?UTF-8?B?5b6Q5bCP6JmOKOS5ieWFiCk=?= , lsvr@ietf.org Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Message-id: <246E99BEEE5D0AE6.87fd3145-2b43-44c1-9307-ba75310213db@mail.outlook.com> In-reply-to: <374fc1c8-27b4-44e0-b0e9-a40cab5584ad.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <001201d41f44$b65ef2a0$231cd7e0$@ndzh.com> <001801d4201b$50989610$f1c9c230$@ndzh.com> <374fc1c8-27b4-44e0-b0e9-a40cab5584ad.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5494_927351400.1532088290285" X-Mailer: Outlook for iOS and Android Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:05:00 -0000 ------=_Part_5494_927351400.1532088290285 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To keep both LSVR and IDR WG in sync , i appreciate to keep LSVR WG in invo= lved. This will allow better understanding of use-case requirement synergie= s and will aid the framing of most optimal solution space. G/ Gunter Van de Velde From: =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) Sent: Friday, July 20, 07:51 Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery To: Susan Hares, Idr, idr Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Hi Sue, Understood, I will.=C2=A0 By the way, some authors of this draft are exactly from MSDC operators incl= uding=C2=A0Alibaba, Tencent and LinkedIn. Best regards, Xiaohu ------------------------------------------------------------------ From:Susan Hares Send Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8820=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E4=BA=94) 1= 9:18 To:=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) ; Idr ; idr Cc:draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Subject:RE: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Xiaohu: =C2=A0 Our next step is to gather requirements for the IDR neighbor discovery from= the WG. =C2=A0We would especially be interested in feedback on requirement= s from operators of data centers.=C2=A0 If you know of an operators of medi= um data centers who could send requirements to the IDR chairs or the IDR li= st, it would be helpful. =C2=A0 Cheerily, Susan Hares=20 =C2=A0 From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ???(??) Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 7:12 AM To: Idr; idr Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hi Sue, =C2=A0 Thanks for launching the WG adoption call for=C2=A0draft-xu-idr-neighbor-au= todiscovery. =C2=A0 Hi all, =C2=A0 There has been one implementation developed by a switch vendor. Furthermore= at least two additional implementations from other vendors=C2=A0are under = construction. If any of you have any concrete and technical=C2=A0concerns o= n this mechanism, please feel free to=C2=A0tell us and we would like to ver= ify your=C2=A0concerns on the implementation and then give you feedbacks. =C2=A0 Best regards, Xiaohu ------------------------------------------------------------------ From:Susan Hares Send Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8819=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B) 1= 7:59 To:idr Cc:draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery =C2=A0 This closes the 2 week adoption for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16).=20 =C2=A0 The WG chairs conclude on my original questions that:=20 1)=C2=A0 There is WG interest to have an auto-discovery mechanism=20 that will work for BGP peers in Data Centers =C2=A0 2)=C2=A0 There is some WG =C2=A0interest having this work in other deployments.=20 =C2=A0 3)=C2=A0 There is no consensus on the mechanisms=20 (BGP hellos or other mechanisms)=20 Or requirements for the mechanisms.=20 =C2=A0 4)=C2=A0 There is WG consensus and AD Consensus that we should=20 collaborate with LSVR. One mechanism for both would=20 be good, but it needs to fit the requirements set by the WG. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 There is no consensus on adoption this draft.=20 =C2=A0 During today=E2=80=99s IDR session (18:10-19:10), we will have a=20 discussion on the requirements for the auto-discovery mechanisms.=20 We will start by reviewing the LSVR requirement set. =C2=A0 If our discussions today do not come to a clear conclusion,=20 the chairs are willing to sponsor an interim on the topic.=20 =C2=A0 Susan Hares and John Scudder.=20 =C2=A0 From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares Sent: Monday, July 2, 2018 1:09 PM To: idr@ietf.org Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org Subject: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery =C2=A0 Greetings:=20 =C2=A0 This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscove= ry (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16).=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/ =C2=A0 The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response to t= his email. =C2=A0I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors= to respond by July 7th.=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 The WG should consider the following:=20 1)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mec= hanism for peers within Data Centers?=20 2)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Does this mechanism work for other deploym= ents?=20 =C2=A0 3)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 If so, should be passed in BGP Hello messa= ge?=C2=A0=20 Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc).=20 =C2=A0 4)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Does this interact with any of the LSVR wo= rk?=20 =C2=A0 I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through some= of the WG LC for other drafts.=C2=A0 We decided to wait until some of thos= e discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Susan Hares=20 =C2=A0 ------=_Part_5494_927351400.1532088290285 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
To keep both LSVR and IDR WG in sync , i appreciate to keep LSVR WG in involved. This will allow better understanding of use-case requirement synergies and will aid the framing of most optimal solution space.

G/

Gunter Van de Velde



From: 徐小虎(义先)
Sent: Friday, July 20, 07:51
Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery
To: Susan Hares, Idr, idr
Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery


Hi Sue,

Understood, I will. 

By the way, some authors of this draft are exactly from MSDC operators including Alibaba, Tencent and LinkedIn.

Best regards,
Xiaohu

------------------------------------------------------------------
From:Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Send Time:2018年7月20日(星期五) 19:18
To:徐小虎(义先) <xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com>; Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org>; idr <idr@ietf.org>
Cc:draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery <draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org>
Subject:RE: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

Xiaohu:
 
Our next step is to gather requirements for the IDR neighbor discovery from the WG.  We would especially be interested in feedback on requirements from operators of data centers.  If you know of an operators of medium data centers who could send requirements to the IDR chairs or the IDR list, it would be helpful.
 
Cheerily, Susan Hares
 
From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ???(??)
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 7:12 AM
To: Idr; idr
Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery
Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery
 
 
Hi Sue,
 
Thanks for launching the WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery.
 
Hi all,
 
There has been one implementation developed by a switch vendor. Furthermore at least two additional implementations from other vendors are under construction. If any of you have any concrete and technical concerns on this mechanism, please feel free to tell us and we would like to verify your concerns on the implementation and then give you feedbacks.
 
Best regards,
Xiaohu
------------------------------------------------------------------
From:Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Send Time:2018年7月19日(星期四) 17:59
To:idr <idr@ietf.org>
Cc:draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery <draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org>
Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery
 
This closes the 2 week adoption for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery
(July 2 – July 16).
 
The WG chairs conclude on my original questions that:
1)  There is WG interest to have an auto-discovery mechanism
that will work for BGP peers in Data Centers
 
2)  There is some WG  interest having this work
in other deployments.
 
3)  There is no consensus on the mechanisms
(BGP hellos or other mechanisms)
Or requirements for the mechanisms.
 
4)  There is WG consensus and AD Consensus that we should
collaborate with LSVR. One mechanism for both would
be good, but it needs to fit the requirements set
by the WG.  
 
There is no consensus on adoption this draft.
 
During today’s IDR session (18:10-19:10), we will have a
discussion on the requirements for the auto-discovery mechanisms.
We will start by reviewing the LSVR requirement set.
 
If our discussions today do not come to a clear conclusion,
the chairs are willing to sponsor an interim on the topic.
 
Susan Hares and John Scudder.
 
From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: Monday, July 2, 2018 1:09 PM
To: idr@ietf.org
Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org
Subject: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery
 
Greetings:
 
This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 – July 16). 
 
 
The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response to this email.  I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors to respond by July 7th. 
 
The WG should consider the following:
1)      Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within Data Centers?
2)      Does this mechanism work for other deployments?
 
3)      If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? 
Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc).
 
4)      Does this interact with any of the LSVR work?
 
I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through some of the WG LC for other drafts.  We decided to wait until some of those discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call.
 
 
Susan Hares
 



------=_Part_5494_927351400.1532088290285-- From nobody Fri Jul 20 05:21:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19622130E80; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 05:21:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.947 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.947 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qa12tpv48AyS; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 05:21:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (50-245-122-97-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.245.122.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B445130E2F; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 05:21:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=31.133.145.18; From: "Susan Hares" To: , "'Idr'" , "'idr'" , =?UTF-8?B?J+W+kOWwj+iZjijkuYnlhYgpJw==?= , Cc: "'draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery'" References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <001201d41f44$b65ef2a0$231cd7e0$@ndzh.com> <001801d4201b$50989610$f1c9c230$@ndzh.com> <374fc1c8-27b4-44e0-b0e9-a40cab5584ad.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> <246E99BEEE5D0AE6.87fd3145-2b43-44c1-9307-ba75310213db@mail.outlook.com> In-Reply-To: <246E99BEEE5D0AE6.87fd3145-2b43-44c1-9307-ba75310213db@mail.outlook.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 08:21:21 -0400 Message-ID: <004e01d42024$2b9566f0$82c034d0$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004F_01D42002.A4872250" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQGRTPZtbKn53OktwvULcZwhWaIQQAGfEnV1AcaflJMBY0uulAJqq3UbAloxC4uk0T9JsA== Content-Language: en-us X-Antivirus: AVG (VPS 180720-0, 07/20/2018), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Not-Tested X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] [Lsvr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:21:38 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01D42002.A4872250 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gunter:=20 =20 Thank you for mention that fact. I had my second cup of tea and noticed = I missed requesting it be cross-posted to LSVR WG.=20 =20 Sue=20 =20 From: Lsvr [mailto:lsvr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = guntervandeveldecc=3D40icloud.com@dmarc.ietf.org Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 8:05 AM To: Susan Hares; Idr; idr; = =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88); lsvr@ietf.org Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Subject: Re: [Lsvr] [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery =20 To keep both LSVR and IDR WG in sync , i appreciate to keep LSVR WG in = involved. This will allow better understanding of use-case requirement = synergies and will aid the framing of most optimal solution space. G/ Gunter Van de Velde From: =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) Sent: Friday, July 20, 07:51 Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery To: Susan Hares, Idr, idr Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Hi Sue, Understood, I will.=20 By the way, some authors of this draft are exactly from MSDC operators = including Alibaba, Tencent and LinkedIn. Best regards, Xiaohu ------------------------------------------------------------------ From:Susan Hares Send = Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8820=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E4=BA=94) = 19:18 To:=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) = ; Idr ; idr = Cc:draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery = Subject:RE: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Xiaohu: =20 Our next step is to gather requirements for the IDR neighbor discovery = from the WG. We would especially be interested in feedback on = requirements from operators of data centers. If you know of an = operators of medium data centers who could send requirements to the IDR = chairs or the IDR list, it would be helpful. =20 Cheerily, Susan Hares=20 =20 From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ???(??) Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 7:12 AM To: Idr; idr Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery =20 =20 Hi Sue, =20 Thanks for launching the WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery. =20 Hi all, =20 There has been one implementation developed by a switch vendor. = Furthermore at least two additional implementations from other vendors = are under construction. If any of you have any concrete and technical = concerns on this mechanism, please feel free to tell us and we would = like to verify your concerns on the implementation and then give you = feedbacks. =20 Best regards, Xiaohu ------------------------------------------------------------------ From:Susan Hares Send = Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8819=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B) = 17:59 To:idr Cc:draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery = Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery =20 This closes the 2 week adoption for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16).=20 =20 The WG chairs conclude on my original questions that:=20 1) There is WG interest to have an auto-discovery mechanism=20 that will work for BGP peers in Data Centers =20 2) There is some WG interest having this work in other deployments.=20 =20 3) There is no consensus on the mechanisms=20 (BGP hellos or other mechanisms)=20 Or requirements for the mechanisms.=20 =20 4) There is WG consensus and AD Consensus that we should=20 collaborate with LSVR. One mechanism for both would=20 be good, but it needs to fit the requirements set by the WG. =20 =20 There is no consensus on adoption this draft.=20 =20 During today=E2=80=99s IDR session (18:10-19:10), we will have a=20 discussion on the requirements for the auto-discovery mechanisms.=20 We will start by reviewing the LSVR requirement set. =20 If our discussions today do not come to a clear conclusion,=20 the chairs are willing to sponsor an interim on the topic.=20 =20 Susan Hares and John Scudder.=20 =20 From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares Sent: Monday, July 2, 2018 1:09 PM To: idr@ietf.org Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org Subject: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery =20 Greetings:=20 =20 This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16). =20 =20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/ =20 The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response = to this email. I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing = co-authors to respond by July 7th. =20 =20 The WG should consider the following:=20 1) Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers = within Data Centers?=20 2) Does this mechanism work for other deployments?=20 =20 3) If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? =20 Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc).=20 =20 4) Does this interact with any of the LSVR work?=20 =20 I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through = some of the WG LC for other drafts. We decided to wait until some of = those discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption = call. =20 =20 Susan Hares=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01D42002.A4872250 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Gunter:

 

Thank you for mention that fact.=C2=A0 I had my second cup of tea and = noticed I missed requesting it be cross-posted to LSVR WG. =

 

Sue

 

From:= = Lsvr [mailto:lsvr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = guntervandeveldecc=3D40icloud.com@dmarc.ietf.org
Sent: = Friday, July 20, 2018 8:05 AM
To: Susan Hares; Idr; idr; = =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88); = lsvr@ietf.org
Cc: = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery
Subject: Re: [Lsvr] [Idr] = WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

 

T= o keep both LSVR and IDR WG in sync , i appreciate to keep LSVR WG in = involved. This will allow better understanding of use-case requirement = synergies and will aid the framing of most optimal solution = space.

G= /

G= unter Van de Velde

<= br>

F= rom: =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(= =E4=B9=89=E5=85= =88)=

S= ent: Friday, July 20, 07:51

S= ubject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

T= o: Susan Hares, Idr, idr

C= c: = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

H= i Sue,

U= nderstood, I will. 

B= y the way, some authors of this draft are exactly from MSDC operators = including Alibaba, Tencent and = LinkedIn.

B= est regards,

X= iaohu

-= -----------------------------------------------------------------

F= rom:Susan Hares = <shares@ndzh.com>

S= end Time:2018=E5=B9=B47= =E6=9C=882= 0=E6=97=A5(= =E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E4=BA=94)= 19:18

T= o:=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(= =E4=B9=89=E5=85= =88)= <xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com>; Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org>; = idr <idr@ietf.org>

C= c:draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery = <draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org>

S= ubject:RE: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

X= iaohu:

&= nbsp;

O= ur next step is to gather requirements for the IDR neighbor discovery = from the WG.  We would especially be interested in feedback on = requirements from operators of data centers.  If you know of an = operators of medium data centers who could send requirements to the IDR = chairs or the IDR list, it would be = helpful.

&= nbsp;

C= heerily, Susan Hares

&= nbsp;

F= rom: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = ???(??)

S= ent: = Friday, July 20, 2018 7:12 AM

T= o: = Idr; idr

C= c: = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

S= ubject: = Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

&= nbsp;

&= nbsp;

H= i Sue,

&= nbsp;

T= hanks for launching the WG adoption call = for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery.

=

&= nbsp;

H= i all,

&= nbsp;

T= here has been one implementation developed by a switch vendor. = Furthermore at least two additional implementations from other = vendors are under construction. If any of you have any concrete and = technical concerns on this mechanism, please feel free to tell = us and we would like to verify your concerns on the implementation = and then give you feedbacks.

&= nbsp;

B= est regards,

X= iaohu

-= -----------------------------------------------------------------

F= rom:Susan Hares = <shares@ndzh.com>

S= end Time:2018=E5=B9=B47= =E6=9C=881= 9=E6=97=A5(= =E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B)= 17:59

T= o:idr <idr@ietf.org>

C= c:draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery = <draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org>

S= ubject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

&= nbsp;

T= his closes the 2 week adoption for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

(= July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16).

&= nbsp;

T= he WG chairs conclude on my original questions that: =

1= )  There is WG interest to have an auto-discovery mechanism =

t= hat will work for BGP peers in Data = Centers

&= nbsp;

2= )  There is some WG  interest having this = work

i= n other deployments.

&= nbsp;

3= )  There is no consensus on the mechanisms =

(= BGP hellos or other mechanisms)

O= r requirements for the mechanisms.

&= nbsp;

4= )  There is WG consensus and AD Consensus that we should =

c= ollaborate with LSVR. One mechanism for both would =

b= e good, but it needs to fit the requirements = set

b= y the WG.  

&= nbsp;

T= here is no consensus on adoption this draft. =

&= nbsp;

D= uring today=E2=80=99s IDR session (18:10-19:10), we will have a =

d= iscussion on the requirements for the auto-discovery mechanisms. =

W= e will start by reviewing the LSVR requirement = set.

&= nbsp;

I= f our discussions today do not come to a clear conclusion, =

t= he chairs are willing to sponsor an interim on the topic. =

&= nbsp;

S= usan Hares and John Scudder.

&= nbsp;

F= rom: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan = Hares

S= ent: = Monday, July 2, 2018 1:09 PM

T= o: = idr@ietf.org

C= c: = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org

<= div>

S= ubject: = [Idr] WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

&= nbsp;

G= reetings:

&= nbsp;

T= his begins a 2 week WG adoption call for = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16).  =

&= nbsp;

<= a = href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscov= ery/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscover= y/

&= nbsp;

T= he authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response to = this email.  I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing = co-authors to respond by July 7th.  =

&= nbsp;

T= he WG should consider the following:

1= )      Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery = mechanism for peers within Data Centers? =

2= )      Does this mechanism work for other = deployments?

&= nbsp;

3= )      If so, should be passed in BGP Hello = message? 

O= r should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc). =

&= nbsp;

4= )      Does this interact with any of the LSVR = work?

&= nbsp;

I= want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through = some of the WG LC for other drafts.  We decided to wait until some = of those discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption = call.

&= nbsp;

&= nbsp;

S= usan Hares

&= nbsp;

<= br>

------=_NextPart_000_004F_01D42002.A4872250-- From nobody Fri Jul 20 06:50:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D986130FBD for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 06:50:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -12.52 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.52 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YjS4fkVKniKl for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 06:49:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98B8C130F49 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 06:49:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=26534; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1532094597; x=1533304197; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=RZZ8JrtjEVnUyV4r7qr33IAF9F4+I9AS2uco30xdHGU=; b=jIO31LErvdWM9El43QGv+B4uNTZlXZG1i6KSjyVpmhJ/bIP1+izqfVBy 1N8VefGV99FbQCei2AfoL5JHa7SnCa8lbYvxDZhmJSTS+Je7HQ2UnVyE+ tT0+0kM7MxIygLvCVXKYt4BuB7n+h8UCB6+Q/dxNMXKfL7i41Tfp/Drfz Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0C1AADa51Fb/5NdJa1cGQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQcBAQEBAYJXdmN/KAqLeIwvggx1lEeBegsihEoCgwwhNBgBAgEBAgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAm0cDIU2AQEBAwEtQQsFCwIBCA4DBAEBASAHBzIUCQgCBAENBQgMgw2BG1w?= =?us-ascii?q?ID6kmgiyKT4kCgVc/gRGCXDWDGQEBAgEXgXwIhRgCkXiHdAkChg+JF4IQi2q?= =?us-ascii?q?KQoRkglQCERSBJB04gVJwFTuCaQmBbC0ag0WFFIU+bwEBjCeBGwEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.51,379,1526342400"; d="scan'208,217";a="426548972" Received: from rcdn-core-11.cisco.com ([173.37.93.147]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 20 Jul 2018 13:49:55 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-014.cisco.com (xch-rcd-014.cisco.com [173.37.102.24]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id w6KDntv5005817 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:49:55 GMT Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com (173.36.7.24) by XCH-RCD-014.cisco.com (173.37.102.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1320.4; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 08:49:55 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) by XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com ([173.36.7.24]) with mapi id 15.00.1320.000; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 08:49:55 -0500 From: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" To: Susan Hares , "'John Scudder'" CC: "'idr wg'" , "'Robert Raszuk'" Thread-Topic: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) Thread-Index: AQHUH7co+mrsl73k3Uy/PrxMkuCLEaSXdqtggABYI4D//605EIAAwEaA///ho4A= Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:49:55 +0000 Message-ID: <9e8263dc30654287a0875afea50349bb@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> References: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> <3a8b0cff4cdf4968b950d5e43810602a@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <00ac01d42013$f5d7b910$e1872b30$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: <00ac01d42013$f5d7b910$e1872b30$@ndzh.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.86.254.250] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_9e8263dc30654287a0875afea50349bbXCHALN014ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.24, xch-rcd-014.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-11.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:50:01 -0000 --_000_9e8263dc30654287a0875afea50349bbXCHALN014ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There's also those that write the code and those that don't. LSVR is going to be a major multi-man-year project. It's more than "just an= other address family". There is a ton of issues that OSPF and ISIS handle differently. LSVR will handle them differently again and will have more issues to handle= differently. The auto-discovery issue is just the start. Then, implementation is not just protocol definition. There's config, oper data, Yang, Test automation and the list goes on A brand new protocol like LSVR does not compare with an increment to extend= ed community code. Variable length communities requires a rewrite. My proposal is a major reuse of existing code. Much easier. Regards, Jakob. From: Susan Hares Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 3:25 AM To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) ; 'John Scudder' Cc: 'idr wg' ; 'Robert Raszuk' Subject: RE: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your prese= ntations ...) Jakob: Two groups of people use BGP. The BGP-LS people who feel adding TLVs and T= LVs of information is acceptable. You claim 1 TLVs is "too much" so that we must spin multiple sizes of commu= nities. Hmm. Cheerily, Sue From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jakob Heitz (jheitz) Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 12:05 AM To: John Scudder Cc: idr wg; Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your prese= ntations ....) The thing is I want to reuse the extended community code as much as possibl= e. The routing policy code and its associated configuration, show, xml and deb= ug commands is the bulk of it. The more you deviate, the harder it gets. Variable length is a big deviation. Regards, Jakob. From: John Scudder > Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 8:53 PM To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) > Cc: Robert Raszuk >; Jeffrey Ha= as >; idr wg > Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your prese= ntations ....) (speaking as an individual WG contributor) I think it is a big mistake to suggest that the reason flexcomms/wide comms= hasn't progressed is that it's variable-length. It's much more ambitious t= han any of the fixed-length stuff we have, that's a reason. It's recursive,= that might be a reason too. But just because it's variable-length? Not buy= ing it. $0.02, --John On Jul 19, 2018, at 11:48 PM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) > wrote: Not at all. Experience has shown that fixed works very well. Large community went from concept to RFC and code complete with all the rou= ting policy code in 2 years, because we could reuse the community code. Variable length communities started in 2002 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lange-flexible-bgp-communities-00 The code will have to be written from scratch. Regards, Jakob. From: Idr > On Behalf Of = Robert Raszuk Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 4:21 PM To: Jeffrey Haas > Cc: idr wg > Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your prese= ntations ....) > If we must do fixed I do not think we must do fixed. I see no reason to stick with fixed. Experience has proven that fixed does not work .. we see this clear in the = proposals being submitted and even presented at IDR. Time to learn from pas= t mistakes. Thx, Robert On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:11 AM, Jeffrey Haas > wrote: On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 12:52:44AM +0200, Robert Raszuk wrote: > 4. New additional RTC SAFI for 30 octets XXXL ext communities is ... insa= ne > - not only obvious but then you would need to get complex dealing with > different/opposite filtering results from different RTCs SAFIs. I would like to offer a very specific reductio ad absurdum: I propose that the next version of communities we do, if they must be fixed length, must be 253 octets of value and 255 bytes of total size. If we must do fixed, do it and be done for a long while. -- Jeff _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://www.ietf..org/mailman/listinfo/idr _______________________________________________ Idr mailing list Idr@ietf.org https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman= _listinfo_idr&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r= =3DhLt5iDJpw7ukqICc0hoT7A&m=3D2hIY6rLbAvAIj9fLY9vdCZMdoxjfktxXE0SPGa4SW9Y&s= =3DANHXDEVazzM11nlzarMDH82yonWcxAhaK1ABXs_A62w&e=3D --_000_9e8263dc30654287a0875afea50349bbXCHALN014ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

There's also those that write the code and t= hose that don't.

LSVR is going to be a major multi-man-year p= roject. It's more than "just another address family".<= /span>

There is a ton of issues that OSPF and ISIS = handle differently.

LSVR will handle them differently again and = will have more issues to handle differently.

The auto-discovery issue is just the start.<= o:p>

Then, implementation is not just protocol de= finition.

There's config, oper data, Yang, Test automa= tion and the list goes on

 

A brand new protocol like LSVR does not comp= are with an increment to extended community code.

Variable length communities requires a rewri= te.

My proposal is a major reuse of existing cod= e. Much easier.

 

Regards,

Jakob.

 

From: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.co= m>
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 3:25 AM
To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com>; 'John Scudder' &l= t;jgs@juniper.net>
Cc: 'idr wg' <idr@ietf.org>; 'Robert Raszuk' <robert@raszuk= .net>
Subject: RE: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on you= r presentations ...)

 

Jakob:

<individual contributor hat on>

 

Two groups of people use BGP.  T= he BGP-LS people who feel adding TLVs and TLVs of information is acceptable= .  

You claim 1 TLVs is “too much&#= 8221; so that we must spin multiple sizes of communities.    = ;

Hmm.

 

<individual contributor hat still = on>

 

Cheerily, Sue

 

From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jakob Heitz (jheitz)
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 12:05 AM
To: John Scudder
Cc: idr wg; Robert Raszuk
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on you= r presentations ....)

 

The thing is I want to reuse the extended co= mmunity code as much as possible.

The routing policy code and its associated c= onfiguration, show, xml and debug commands is the bulk of it.

The more you deviate, the harder it gets.

Variable length is a big deviation.

 

Regards,

Jakob.

 

From: John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 8:53 PM
To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jhe= itz@cisco.com>
Cc: Robert Raszuk <robert@ra= szuk.net>; Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@= pfrc.org>; idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on you= r presentations ....)

 

(speaking as an individual WG contributor)

 

I think it is a big mistake to suggest that the reas= on flexcomms/wide comms hasn't progressed is that it's variable-length. It'= s much more ambitious than any of the fixed-length stuff we have, that's a = reason. It's recursive, that might be a reason too. But just because it's variable-length? Not buying it.

 

$0.02,

 

--John

 

 

Not at all. Experience has shown that fixed = works very well.

Large community went from concept to RFC and= code complete with all the routing policy code in 2 years,

because we could reuse the community code.

Variable length communities started in 2002<= /span>

The code will have to be written from scratc= h.

 

Regards,

Jakob.

 

From: Idr <i= dr-bounces@ietf.org>&nb= sp;On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
Sent: Thursday, Ju= ly 19, 2018 4:21 PM
To: Jeffrey Haas &= lt;jhaas@pfr= c.org>
Cc: idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr]= Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ....)

 

 

> If we must do fixed<= /o:p>

 

I do not think we must do fixed. I see no reason to stick with fixed.&= nbsp;

 

Experience has proven that fixed does not work .. we see this clear in= the proposals being submitted and even presented at IDR. Time to learn fro= m past mistakes. 

 

Thx,
Robert

 

 

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:11 AM, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 12:52:44AM +0200, Robert= Raszuk wrote:
> 4. New additional RTC SAFI for 30 octets XXXL ext communities is ... i= nsane
> - not only obvious but then you would need to get complex dealing with=
> different/opposite filtering results from different RTCs SAFIs.

I would like to offer a very specific reductio ad absurdum:
I propose that the next version of communities we do, if they must be fixed=
length, must be 253 octets of value and 255 bytes of total size.

If we must do fixed, do it and be done for a long while.

-- Jeff

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf= ..org/mailman/listinfo/idr

 

_______________________________________________ Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?= u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_idr&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkY= uh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DhLt5iDJpw7ukqICc0hoT7A&= m=3D2hIY6rLbAvAIj9fLY9vdCZMdoxjfktxXE0SPGa4SW9Y&s=3DANHXDEVazzM11nlzarM= DH82yonWcxAhaK1ABXs_A62w&e=3D

 

--_000_9e8263dc30654287a0875afea50349bbXCHALN014ciscocom_-- From nobody Fri Jul 20 06:57:48 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A63F9131180 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 06:57:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.59 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.59 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FSEGJIOdRbKx for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 06:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x530.google.com (mail-pg1-x530.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::530]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2BCEA1311B6 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 06:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x530.google.com with SMTP id e6-v6so6983551pgv.2 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 06:57:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=XiwikM8fDjohMoLoTBdB/OdJlYuogJ6NnADgs+w68rE=; b=U+2RkAazAH2mdVfNfgX0HaJ69xHy9QsSJL5pkRJN6ipH1Sut0lqoiPRG9CREh4iaXJ UYQtKesbNiP+aDB1lfmf/VB7FKM/vE17rvSmzh0jS8jKo6lT6E5TDXThQmEfzRve9W+f e5itwm7dN+OsDCnxW/pfDa8fmlS0ewkBsG92Bm6FJWvwsfPU7m6i/neF/hGoTtGXvmqb yxIlS5zr5Y2xqiFuXwYGPedz3mAl2k3p9S67frX2A7dvPtXJeBx6hpH/3KQtdh4/nidJ 4nmfhm22EaaMneZbLDQnAGTtlgcgvMmoAqZrNKvI6vFz64lS+aymWTi2v/0gkB6/hqR/ qeUA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XiwikM8fDjohMoLoTBdB/OdJlYuogJ6NnADgs+w68rE=; b=D9M6C/SJvQ+RljyCp3SqZcF+wU7lkpDhm46QSoVadlg0QxP+p7cZLXPGPciRUvt3EW Kyy8u/cZwG9Z1ncIGa3CvL53+bUbkmMuZF4Smi/b7XR8Q3mPqqBGFkWZEo70FN7sxsxj gPZp1vU3koeMqtHA1zNxOtw+9/u4hhvwlRQqI1199NksnZGeYoiKGmzB709RA6/SPddX 7AXxMn6ZPkBLEjDNFjjiHJPGIfY0P2Aieb40VvoZD/lT0S05p3XZaomsg6arJkWlfVI8 yIfssUSFChkeRpQeVcbaEN94P2aC5dqJ4jaUucrnIE6ei2xHRpphtuzUJsBXOrZ3br1t B6ng== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlEHB3grrVx0Xkump6/3ocepHaWJXycZThKbLDTPqAu6MWNjZRfd 1c5e/Kmqifa5BGctAAm5gv49ALLBylrqlnTOscdBJA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpemW/8uXdK/adZQS13RoXzq0T5x97S5s6h0BYio6xZP9mcBRM5jz7bGY1JI9NCRm5oug2gmSOf/9aJFfpoONIo= X-Received: by 2002:a65:5c83:: with SMTP id a3-v6mr2236892pgt.164.1532095061563; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 06:57:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rraszuk@gmail.com Received: by 2002:a17:90a:d396:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jul 2018 06:57:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9e8263dc30654287a0875afea50349bb@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> References: <20180719231119.GB10999@pfrc.org> <3a8b0cff4cdf4968b950d5e43810602a@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <5e8e2b88c99044d8bed2fffa38720532@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> <00ac01d42013$f5d7b910$e1872b30$@ndzh.com> <9e8263dc30654287a0875afea50349bb@XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:57:40 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0dFyWdIYJi6G9geQagPp36Yj4AA Message-ID: To: "Jakob Heitz (jheitz)" Cc: Susan Hares , John Scudder , idr wg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e81f4c05716ead19" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your presentations ...) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:57:47 -0000 --000000000000e81f4c05716ead19 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jakob, How out of the sudden this thread become LSVR thread ? Sue were merely pointing out as example BGP-LS TLV based encoding ... One thing for sure - and you were very honest which is highly appreciated - with variable length communities some aspects of policy code needs to be changed. True. And you don't want to do that - also true. But this is just an opinion in no way I presume stopping IDR to standardize good thing only due to potential issues with adjusting one BGP implementation to accommodate it. Thx, R. On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 3:49 PM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) wrote: > There's also those that write the code and those that don't. > > LSVR is going to be a major multi-man-year project. It's more than "just > another address family". > > There is a ton of issues that OSPF and ISIS handle differently. > > LSVR will handle them differently again and will have more issues to > handle differently. > > The auto-discovery issue is just the start. > > Then, implementation is not just protocol definition. > > There's config, oper data, Yang, Test automation and the list goes on > > > > A brand new protocol like LSVR does not compare with an increment to > extended community code. > > Variable length communities requires a rewrite. > > My proposal is a major reuse of existing code. Much easier. > > > > Regards, > > Jakob. > > > > *From:* Susan Hares > *Sent:* Friday, July 20, 2018 3:25 AM > *To:* Jakob Heitz (jheitz) ; 'John Scudder' < > jgs@juniper.net> > *Cc:* 'idr wg' ; 'Robert Raszuk' > *Subject:* RE: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your > presentations ...) > > > > Jakob: > > > > > > Two groups of people use BGP. The BGP-LS people who feel adding TLVs and > TLVs of information is acceptable. > > You claim 1 TLVs is =E2=80=9Ctoo much=E2=80=9D so that we must spin multi= ple sizes of > communities. > > Hmm. > > > > > > > > Cheerily, Sue > > > > *From:* Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org ] *On > Behalf Of *Jakob Heitz (jheitz) > *Sent:* Friday, July 20, 2018 12:05 AM > *To:* John Scudder > *Cc:* idr wg; Robert Raszuk > *Subject:* Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your > presentations ....) > > > > The thing is I want to reuse the extended community code as much as > possible. > > The routing policy code and its associated configuration, show, xml and > debug commands is the bulk of it. > > The more you deviate, the harder it gets. > > Variable length is a big deviation. > > > > Regards, > > Jakob. > > > > *From:* John Scudder > *Sent:* Thursday, July 19, 2018 8:53 PM > *To:* Jakob Heitz (jheitz) > *Cc:* Robert Raszuk ; Jeffrey Haas ; > idr wg > *Subject:* Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your > presentations ....) > > > > (speaking as an individual WG contributor) > > > > I think it is a big mistake to suggest that the reason flexcomms/wide > comms hasn't progressed is that it's variable-length. It's much more > ambitious than any of the fixed-length stuff we have, that's a reason. It= 's > recursive, that might be a reason too. But just because it's > variable-length? Not buying it. > > > > $0.02, > > > > --John > > > > On Jul 19, 2018, at 11:48 PM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) < > jheitz=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > > > Not at all. Experience has shown that fixed works very well. > > Large community went from concept to RFC and code complete with all the > routing policy code in 2 years, > > because we could reuse the community code. > > Variable length communities started in 2002 > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lange-flexible-bgp-communities-00 > > > The code will have to be written from scratch. > > > > Regards, > > Jakob. > > > > *From:* Idr *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk > *Sent:* Thursday, July 19, 2018 4:21 PM > *To:* Jeffrey Haas > *Cc:* idr wg > *Subject:* Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on your > presentations ....) > > > > > > > If we must do fixed > > > > I do not think we must do fixed. I see no reason to stick with fixed. > > > > Experience has proven that fixed does not work .. we see this clear in th= e > proposals being submitted and even presented at IDR. Time to learn from > past mistakes. > > > > Thx, > Robert > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:11 AM, Jeffrey Haas wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 12:52:44AM +0200, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > 4. New additional RTC SAFI for 30 octets XXXL ext communities is ... > insane > > - not only obvious but then you would need to get complex dealing with > > different/opposite filtering results from different RTCs SAFIs. > > I would like to offer a very specific reductio ad absurdum: > I propose that the next version of communities we do, if they must be fix= ed > length, must be 253 octets of value and 255 bytes of total size. > > If we must do fixed, do it and be done for a long while. > > -- Jeff > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf..org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www. > ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_idr&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK- > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DhLt5iDJpw7ukqICc0hoT7A&m=3D2hIY6rLbAvAIj9fLY9vdCZMdox= jfkt > xXE0SPGa4SW9Y&s=3DANHXDEVazzM11nlzarMDH82yonWcxAhaK1ABXs_A62w&e=3D > > > --000000000000e81f4c05716ead19 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Jakob,

<= /div>
How out of the sudden this thread become LSVR threa= d ? Sue were merely pointing out as example BGP-LS TLV based encoding ...= =C2=A0

One thing for s= ure - and you were very honest which is highly appreciated - with variable = length communities some aspects of policy code needs to be changed. True. A= nd you don't want to do that - also true.=C2=A0

But this is just an opinion in no way I presu= me stopping IDR to standardize good thing only due to potential issues with= adjusting one BGP implementation to accommodate it.=C2=A0

Thx,
R.
=


On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 3:49 PM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jh= eitz@cisco.com> wrote:

There's also those that write the code a= nd those that don't.

LSVR is going to be a major multi-man-year p= roject. It's more than "just another address family".<= u>

There is a ton of issues that OSPF and ISIS = handle differently.

LSVR will handle them differently again and = will have more issues to handle differently.

The auto-discovery issue is just the start.<= u>

Then, implementation is not just protocol de= finition.

There's config, oper data, Yang, Test au= tomation and the list goes on

=C2=A0

A brand new protocol like LSVR does not comp= are with an increment to extended community code.

Variable length communities requires a rewri= te.

My proposal is a major reuse of existing cod= e. Much easier.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Jakob.

=C2=A0

From: Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 3:25 AM
To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com>; 'John Scudder' <jgs@juniper.net>
Cc: 'idr wg' <idr@ietf.org>; 'Robert Raszuk' <robert@raszuk.net>
Subject: RE: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on you= r presentations ...)

=C2=A0

Jakob:

<individual contributor hat on>

=C2=A0

Two groups of people use BGP.=C2=A0 T= he BGP-LS people who feel adding TLVs and TLVs of information is acceptable= . =C2=A0

You claim 1 TLVs is =E2=80=9Ctoo much= =E2=80=9D so that we must spin multiple sizes of communities.=C2=A0=C2=A0 = =C2=A0

Hmm.

=C2=A0

<individual contributor hat still = on>

=C2=A0

Cheerily, Sue

=C2=A0

From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jakob Heitz (jheitz)
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 12:05 AM
To: John Scudder
Cc: idr wg; Robert Raszuk
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions= on your presentations ....)

=C2=A0

The thing is I want to reuse the extended co= mmunity code as much as possible.

The routing policy code and its associated c= onfiguration, show, xml and debug commands is the bulk of it.=

The more you deviate, the harder it gets.=

Variable length is a big deviation.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Jakob.

=C2=A0

From: John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 8:53 PM
To: Jakob Heitz (jheitz) <jheitz@cisco.com>
Cc: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>; Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>; idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions= on your presentations ....)

=C2=A0

(speaking as an individual WG contributor)

=C2=A0

I think it is a big mistake to suggest that the reas= on flexcomms/wide comms hasn't progressed is that it's variable-len= gth. It's much more ambitious than any of the fixed-length stuff we hav= e, that's a reason. It's recursive, that might be a reason too. But just because it's variable-length? Not buying it.=

=C2=A0

$0.02,

=C2=A0

--John

=C2=A0

On Jul 19, 2018, at 11:48 PM, Jakob Heitz (jheitz) &= lt;jheitz=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

=C2=A0

Not at all. Experience has shown that fixed = works very well.

Large community went from concept to RFC and= code complete with all the routing policy code in 2 years,

because we could reuse the community code.

Variable length communities started in 2002<= /span>

The code will have to be written from scratc= h.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Jakob.

=C2=A0

From:=C2=A0Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org>=C2=A0On Behalf Of=C2=A0Robert = Raszuk
Sent:=C2= =A0Thursday, July 19, 2018 4:21 PM
To:=C2= =A0Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>
Cc:=C2= =A0idr wg <idr@ietf.org>
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Idr] Fixed sized communities (was Re: Questions on= your presentations ....)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

> If we must do fixed

=C2=A0

I do not think we must do fixed. I see no reason to stick with fixed.= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

Experience has proven that fixed does not work .. we see this clear in= the proposals being submitted and even presented at IDR. Time to learn fro= m past mistakes.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thx,
Robert

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:11 AM, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 12:52:44AM +0200, Robert Ras= zuk wrote:
> 4. New additional RTC SAFI for 30 octets XXXL ext communities is ... i= nsane
> - not only obvious but then you would need to get complex dealing with=
> different/opposite filtering results from different RTCs SAFIs.

I would like to offer a very specific reductio ad absurdum:
I propose that the next version of communities we do, if they must be fixed=
length, must be 253 octets of value and 255 bytes of total size.

If we must do fixed, do it and be done for a long while.

-- Jeff

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf= ..org/mailman/listinfo/idr

=C2=A0

_____________________________________________= __
Idr mailing list
Idr= @ietf.org
https://urldefense.proo= fpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_idr= &d=3DDwICAg&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDT= XcWzoCI&r=3DhLt5iDJpw7ukqICc0hoT7A&m=3D2hIY6rLbAvAIj9fLY9= vdCZMdoxjfktxXE0SPGa4SW9Y&s=3DANHXDEVazzM11nlzarMDH82yonWcxA<= wbr>haK1ABXs_A62w&e=3D

=C2=A0


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([2001:67c:1232:144:2185:5dc3:1f04:f0e0]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g10-v6sm543072ioq.87.2018.07.20.07.03.19 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 20 Jul 2018 07:03:20 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-64736806-F413-483B-BF8B-8A5D736B0ED3 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Gaurav Dawra X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15F79) In-Reply-To: <374fc1c8-27b4-44e0-b0e9-a40cab5584ad.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:03:19 -0400 Cc: Susan Hares , Idr , idr , draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <013701d41227$579d2d10$06d78730$@ndzh.com> <001201d41f44$b65ef2a0$231cd7e0$@ndzh.com> <001801d4201b$50989610$f1c9c230$@ndzh.com> <374fc1c8-27b4-44e0-b0e9-a40cab5584ad.xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com> To: =?utf-8?B?IuW+kOWwj+iZjijkuYnlhYgpIg==?= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:03:31 -0000 --Apple-Mail-64736806-F413-483B-BF8B-8A5D736B0ED3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sue, As I have shared earlier during adoption call. I have specific concerns on t= his document which we have shared with the authors on thread and offline. Th= ere are no authors currently from LinkedIn. We will continue to provide input once those concerns have been addressed. Cheers, Gaurav Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 20, 2018, at 7:49 AM, =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88= ) wrote: >=20 > Hi Sue, >=20 > Understood, I will.=20 >=20 > By the way, some authors of this draft are exactly from MSDC operators inc= luding Alibaba, Tencent and LinkedIn. >=20 > Best regards, > Xiaohu >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > From:Susan Hares > Send Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8820=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E4=BA=94) 1= 9:18 > To:=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) ; Idr ; idr > Cc:draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery > Subject:RE: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery= >=20 > Xiaohu: > =20 > Our next step is to gather requirements for the IDR neighbor discovery fro= m the WG. We would especially be interested in feedback on requirements fro= m operators of data centers. If you know of an operators of medium data cen= ters who could send requirements to the IDR chairs or the IDR list, it would= be helpful. > =20 > Cheerily, Susan Hares > =20 > From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ???(??) > Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 7:12 AM > To: Idr; idr > Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery > Subject: Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscover= y > =20 > =20 > Hi Sue, > =20 > Thanks for launching the WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodi= scovery. > =20 > Hi all, > =20 > There has been one implementation developed by a switch vendor. Furthermor= e at least two additional implementations from other vendors are under const= ruction. If any of you have any concrete and technical concerns on this mech= anism, please feel free to tell us and we would like to verify your concerns= on the implementation and then give you feedbacks. > =20 > Best regards, > Xiaohu > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > From:Susan Hares > Send Time:2018=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8819=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B) 1= 7:59 > To:idr > Cc:draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery > Subject:Re: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery= > =20 > This closes the 2 week adoption for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery > (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16). > =20 > The WG chairs conclude on my original questions that: > 1) There is WG interest to have an auto-discovery mechanism > that will work for BGP peers in Data Centers > =20 > 2) There is some WG interest having this work > in other deployments. > =20 > 3) There is no consensus on the mechanisms > (BGP hellos or other mechanisms) > Or requirements for the mechanisms. > =20 > 4) There is WG consensus and AD Consensus that we should > collaborate with LSVR. One mechanism for both would > be good, but it needs to fit the requirements set > by the WG. =20 > =20 > There is no consensus on adoption this draft. > =20 > During today=E2=80=99s IDR session (18:10-19:10), we will have a > discussion on the requirements for the auto-discovery mechanisms. > We will start by reviewing the LSVR requirement set. > =20 > If our discussions today do not come to a clear conclusion, > the chairs are willing to sponsor an interim on the topic. > =20 > Susan Hares and John Scudder. > =20 > From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares > Sent: Monday, July 2, 2018 1:09 PM > To: idr@ietf.org > Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org > Subject: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery > =20 > Greetings: > =20 > This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscov= ery (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16).=20 > =20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/ > =20 > The authors of this draft should send their IPR statements in response to t= his email. I hope the authors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors to re= spond by July 7th.=20 > =20 > The WG should consider the following: > 1) Does BGP need to have an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within D= ata Centers? > 2) Does this mechanism work for other deployments? > =20 > 3) If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message?=20 > Or should it be a part of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc). > =20 > 4) Does this interact with any of the LSVR work? > =20 > I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted through som= e of the WG LC for other drafts. We decided to wait until some of those dis= cussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption call. > =20 > =20 > Susan Hares > =20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr --Apple-Mail-64736806-F413-483B-BF8B-8A5D736B0ED3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Sue,
As I have shared earlier during adoption call. I have specif= ic concerns on this document which we have shared with the authors on thread= and offline. There are no authors currently from LinkedIn.

We will continue to provide input once those concerns have been add= ressed.

Cheers,

Gaurav
=
Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 2= 0, 2018, at 7:49 AM, =E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) <xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com>= wrote:

Hi Su= e,

Unde= rstood, I will. 

By the way, some authors of this draft are exactly from MSDC o= perators including Alibaba, Tencent and LinkedIn.

Best regards,
Xiaohu

------------------------------------------------------------------
=
From:Susan Hares <shares@ndzh.com>
Send Time:201= 8=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8820=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E4=BA=94) 19:18
To:=E5=BE=90=E5=B0=8F=E8=99=8E(=E4=B9=89=E5=85=88) &l= t;xiaohu.xxh@alibaba-inc.com>; Idr <idr-bounces@ietf.org= >; idr <idr@ietf.org>
=
Cc:draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery <draft-xu-idr-neigh= bor-autodiscovery@ietf.org>
Subject:R= E: [Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

=

Xiaohu:

 

Our= next step is to gather requirements for the IDR neighbor discovery from the= WG.  We would especially be interested in feedback on requirements fro= m operators of data centers.  If you know of an operators of medium dat= a centers who could send requirements to the IDR chairs or the IDR list, it w= ould be helpful.

 

= Cheerily, Susan Hares

 

From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of <= /b>???(??)
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2018 7:12 AM
To: Idr; i= dr
Cc: draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery
Subject: Re: [= Idr] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

 

 <= /p>

Hi Sue,

 

Thanks for lau= nching the WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery.

 

Hi all,=

 

There has been one implementation developed by a switch vendor. = Furthermore at least two additional implementations from other vendors = are under construction. If any of you have any concrete and technical c= oncerns on this mechanism, please feel free to tell us and we would lik= e to verify your concerns on the implementation and then give you feedb= acks.

 

Best regards,

Xiaohu

------------------------= ------------------------------------------

From:Susan Hares <shares@nd= zh.com>

Send Time:2018=E5=B9= =B47=E6=9C=8819=E6=97=A5(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B) 17:59

To:idr <idr@ietf.org>

Cc:draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery <draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@= ietf.org>

Subject:Re: [Id= r] WG adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

=

 

This closes the 2 week a= doption for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

(July 2 =E2=80=93= July 16).

 

The WG chairs conclude on my origin= al questions that:

1)  T= here is WG interest to have an auto-discovery mechanism

th= at will work for BGP peers in Data Centers

 <= /p>

2)  There is some WG  inter= est having this work

in other deployments.

 

3)&n= bsp; There is n= o consensus on the mechanisms

(BGP hellos or other mecha= nisms)

Or requirements for the mechanisms.

=  

= 4)  There is WG cons= ensus and AD Consensus that we should

collaborate with L= SVR. One mechanism for both would

<= span style=3D"font-family:Courier New;color:#1f497d;">be good, but it needs t= o fit the requirements set

by the WG.  

=  

There is no consensus on adoption this draft.

=

During today=E2=80=99s IDR session (18:10-19:10), we wi= ll have a

discussion on the requirements for the auto-discovery= mechanisms.

We will start by reviewing the LSVR requirement se= t.

 

If our discussions today do not come to a c= lear conclusion,

the chairs are willing to sponsor an interim o= n the topic.

 

Susan Hares and John Scudder. <= /span>

 

From:= Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf= .org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: Monday, July 2, 20= 18 1:09 PM
To: idr@ietf.orgCc: = draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery@ietf.org
Subject: [Idr] WG= adoption call for draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery

 

Greetings:

 

This begins a 2 week WG adoption call for dra= ft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery (July 2 =E2=80=93 July 16). 

 

https= ://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-idr-neighbor-autodiscovery/<= /p>

 

The authors of this draft sh= ould send their IPR statements in response to this email.  I hope the a= uthors will ihelp their vacationing co-authors to respond by July 7th. 

&= nbsp;

The WG s= hould consider the following:

1)  = ;    Does BGP need to hav= e an autodiscovery mechanism for peers within Data Centers?

2)      Does this mechanism work for other deployments?

 

3)      If so, should be passed in BGP Hello message? 

Or should it be a part= of another protocol (e.g. LLDP, BFD, etc).

 

4)&nbs= p;     Does this int= eract with any of the LSVR work?

 

I want to thank the authors for their patience while we sorted t= hrough some of the WG LC for other drafts.  We decided to wait until so= me of those discussion were cleared up prior to starting a new WG Adoption c= all.

 

 

Susan Hares

=

 <= /p>


= _______________________________________________
Idr ma= iling list
Idr@ietf.org<= /span>
https:= //www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
<= /div>
Dear all,

Just to follow up on my = talk, before the daily job will grab back all my attention.

<= /div>
IMO we need default policies that will process different kinds of= signals (GRSH, Leak detection, others) that must have support in the code = of the routing software.=C2=A0

At the same time, I= have an uneasy feeling if default policy will silently overwrite route map= configuration. And at least one implementation of GRSH already does it.=C2= =A0

My idea is that instead of encoding processing= of these signals inside LOCAL_PREF (btw, loosing information) we may creat= e route separation on top of BGP decision process. This should avoid the ne= ed for applying default policies after route maps, so there would be strict= order 'default policy' -> 'routing policy'.
-= -=C2=A0
| Alexander Azimov =C2=A0| HLL l QRATOR
| tel.: +7 499 241 81 92
| mob.: +7 915 360 08 86
| sky= pe: mitradir
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