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(Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A23A120059; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 11:06:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: idr@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.111.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: idr@ietf.org Message-ID: <157522721199.22037.9791760403959380020@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2019 11:06:52 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-15.txt X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2019 19:06:52 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Inter-Domain Routing WG of the IETF. Title : The BGP Tunnel Encapsulation Attribute Authors : Keyur Patel Gunter Van de Velde Srihari R. Sangli Filename : draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-15.txt Pages : 42 Date : 2019-12-01 Abstract: RFC 5512 defines a BGP Path Attribute known as the "Tunnel Encapsulation Attribute". This attribute allows one to specify a set of tunnels. For each such tunnel, the attribute can provide the information needed to create the tunnel and the corresponding encapsulation header. The attribute can also provide information that aids in choosing whether a particular packet is to be sent through a particular tunnel. RFC 5512 states that the attribute is only carried in BGP UPDATEs that have the "Encapsulation Subsequent Address Family (Encapsulation SAFI)". This document deprecates the Encapsulation SAFI (which has never been used in production), and specifies semantics for the attribute when it is carried in UPDATEs of certain other SAFIs. This document adds support for additional tunnel types, and allows a remote tunnel endpoint address to be specified for each tunnel. This document also provides support for specifying fields of any inner or outer encapsulations that may be used by a particular tunnel. This document obsoletes RFC 5512. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-15 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-15 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-idr-tunnel-encaps-15 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Dec 1 19:14:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89D8F120123 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 19:14:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pju20NWdCr_t for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 19:14:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F8991200C1 for ; Sun, 1 Dec 2019 19:14:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id A9BA9193CA61DBAC86D7 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 03:14:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEML406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.50) by lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.46) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 03:14:24 +0000 Received: from DGGEML509-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.200]) by dggeml406-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.3.17.50]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 11:14:16 +0800 From: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" To: Keyur Patel , "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" , Susan Hares , "idr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Idr] WG LC draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-10.txt [11/17/2019 to 12/2/2019] Thread-Index: AdWd0gRnmm6Aw4Y9ShOHyzWN65U36QH4juaQAAZtuKAAmJyFgAAijFxg Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 03:14:15 +0000 Message-ID: References: <016501d59dd2$e5458850$afd098f0$@ndzh.com> <1E61161D6E31D849BEA887261DB609348C9F8255@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> <32C23C82-3512-4A53-9D89-09F374EB5359@arrcus.com> In-Reply-To: <32C23C82-3512-4A53-9D89-09F374EB5359@arrcus.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.185.75] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB027F978Adggeml509mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG LC draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-10.txt [11/17/2019 to 12/2/2019] X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2019 03:14:32 -0000 --_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB027F978Adggeml509mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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LXNpemU6MTIuMHB0O2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OkNvbnNvbGFzO21zby1mYXJlYXN0LWxhbmd1YWdlOkVO LVVTIj4mbmJzcDs8L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_EF21EAB6465344A9BA8539F08A1B4C00junipernet_-- From nobody Mon Dec 2 04:38:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C76511201EA for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 04:38:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4sLbyXrqAfRS for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 04:38:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B9C612000F for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 04:38:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 71C8DABD1CC8CCF80CE6 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 12:38:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from lhreml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.56) by lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.44) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 12:38:43 +0000 Received: from lhreml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.56) by lhreml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1713.5; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 12:38:43 +0000 Received: from NKGEML412-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.73) by lhreml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA_P256) id 15.1.1713.5 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 12:38:43 +0000 Received: from NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::a54a:89d2:c471:ff]) by nkgeml412-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.73]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 20:38:37 +0800 From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" To: Susan Hares , "idr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Idr] WG LC draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-10.txt [11/17/2019 to 12/2/2019] Thread-Index: AdWd0gRnmm6Aw4Y9ShOHyzWN65U36QLOyqJg Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 12:38:36 +0000 Message-ID: <76CD132C3ADEF848BD84D028D243C927CD466A58@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <016501d59dd2$e5458850$afd098f0$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: <016501d59dd2$e5458850$afd098f0$@ndzh.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.203.211] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_76CD132C3ADEF848BD84D028D243C927CD466A58NKGEML515MBXchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG LC draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-10.txt [11/17/2019 to 12/2/2019] X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2019 12:38:51 -0000 --_000_76CD132C3ADEF848BD84D028D243C927CD466A58NKGEML515MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sue, I support the publication of this document. 1) Yes 2) Yes, it's useful for traffic steering. 3) Yes. 4) Yes Best regards, Jie From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 1:42 PM To: idr@ietf.org Subject: [Idr] WG LC draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-10.txt [11/17/20= 19 to 12/2/2019] This begins a 2 week WG Last call on draft-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-10.tx= t from [11/17/2019 to 12/2/2019]. You can obtain the draft at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-path-redirect/ Consider in your review whether this draft: 1) Is compatible with draft-ietf-rfc5575bis-17.txt? 2) Whether the draft is useful for deployments of flow specification 3) Is this technology ready for deployment? 4) Is the write-up of this technology in draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-path-= redirect clearly written and ready for publication? Thank you for considering this draft. Cheerily, Susan Hares --_000_76CD132C3ADEF848BD84D028D243C927CD466A58NKGEML515MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Sue,=

&n= bsp;

I suppo= rt the publication of this document.

&n= bsp;

1) Yes<= o:p>

2) Yes,= it’s useful for traffic steering.

3) Yes.=

4) Yes<= o:p>

&n= bsp;

Best re= gards,

Jie

 

From: Idr [mailto:idr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Susan Hares
Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 1:42 PM
To: idr@ietf.org
Subject: [Idr] WG LC draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-10.txt [1= 1/17/2019 to 12/2/2019]

 

This begins a 2 week WG Last ca= ll on draft-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-10.txt from [11/17/2019 to 12/2/2019= ].

 

You can obtain the draft at:

 

https://datatracker.ie= tf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-path-redirect/

 

Consider in your review whether= this draft:

 

1) &nbs= p;    Is compatible with draf= t-ietf-rfc5575bis-17.txt?

2) &nbs= p;    Whether the draft is us= eful for deployments of flow specification

3) &nbs= p;    Is this technology read= y for deployment?

4) &nbs= p;    Is the write-up of this= technology in draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-path-redirect clearly written and re= ady for publication?

 

Thank you for considering this = draft.

 

Cheerily, Susan Hares

 

--_000_76CD132C3ADEF848BD84D028D243C927CD466A58NKGEML515MBXchi_-- From nobody Mon Dec 2 09:22:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDEDD120835 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 09:22:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lXfnRD96RY4q for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 09:22:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E999120834 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 09:22:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C9DDD1E2F5; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 12:26:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 12:26:21 -0500 From: Jeffrey Haas To: "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" Cc: Sue Hares , "idr@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20191202172621.GG18175@pfrc.org> References: <016501d59dd2$e5458850$afd098f0$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG LC draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-10.txt [11/17/2019 to 12/2/2019] X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2019 17:22:13 -0000 Gunter, On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 03:51:35AM +0000, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote: > > Procedure-wise, there needs to be a bit more text covering cases about interactions with other traffic actions. This was a known headache for similar drafts such as redirect-to-ip. In particular, interaction with redirect-to-ip and redirect-to-vrf is needed. > > GV> Section "6. Validation Procedures" gives input on this. We discussed this with you long ago and hence this text was added. > > " > While it MUST NOT happen, and is seen as invalid combination, it is > possible from a semantics perspective to have multiple clashing > redirect actions defined within a single flowspec rule. For best and > consistant compatibility with legacy implementations, the redirect > functionality as documented by rfc5575bis MUST NOT be broken, and > hence when a clash occurs, then rfc5575bis based redirect MUST take > priority. > " > > This means that redirect-to-VRF will take absolute priority to not break rfc5575bis behavior. > Having also redirect-to-ip will result in an invalid Redirect-ip isn't even mentioned in the draft. Part of the reason to raise this is whether intentional interactions could happen. As an example, redirect-ip is specced to be permitted in the context of a VRF redirection. I suspect in the majority of the cases that path-redirect is intended involving segment routing that following a segment path from a VRF context doesn't make much sense. However, some of the cases are left as much more abstract and perhaps they could? My point is that a bit more normative text on the various cases would be needed for interoperable code. > > The text "A single flowspec rule MUST NOT have more as one indirection-id per S-ID. On a flowspec client the indirection-id with lowest S-ID MUST be imposed first for any given flowspec entry." There's no procedure for what happens in error handling when you do have more than one of the same S-ID. The text about the case for S-ID of 0 is also a bit ambiguous. It feels like it's reading "there is no sequence", but what do you do when you then have ones that do? > > GV> What about the following rewrite: > > Original: > The 'S-ID' field identifies a 4 bit Sequence ID field. This field is > used to provide a flowspec client an indication how and where to > sequence the received indirection-ids. The Sequence ID value 0 > indicates that Sequence ID field is NOT set and SHOULD be ignored. A > single flowspec rule MUST NOT have more as one indirection-id per > S-ID. On a flowspec client the indirection-id with lowest S-ID MUST > be imposed first for any given flowspec entry. > > New: > The 'S-ID' field identifies a 4 bit Sequence ID field. This field is > used to provide a flowspec client an indication how and where to > sequence the received indirection-ids. The Sequence ID value 0 > indicates that Sequence ID field is NOT set and **all other sequence ID's** > SHOULD be ignored. A > single flowspec rule MUST NOT have more as one indirection-id per > S-ID. On a flowspec client the indirection-id with lowest S-ID MUST > be imposed first for any given flowspec entry. Aside comment: Any possibility this could be renamed Seq-Id or something similar to avoid name confusion to SID? The text above is clearer, but I'm not sure it really helps your case. Here is what I believe the intent to be in pseudo-code: if Seq-ID == 0 is present: apply actions, if possible. exit foreach s in Seq-Id 1..15: if s is present: if action for s is possible: apply it. exit else: continue Basically, try each sequence in turn. If you can do something with it, you're done. If you can't (the indirection can't be applied for numerous reasons), try next. S-ID zero is intended to be a "hard stop". The 'C' bit also looks like it only changes the stream behavior and doesn't impact whether the rule is terminating or not. What's still not covered, since these are extended communities, is cases like there are two of a given S-ID present. Perhaps it was added via blind policy? What do you do? > " > While it MUST NOT happen, and is seen as invalid combination, it is > possible from a semantics perspective to have multiple clashing > redirect actions defined within a single flowspec rule. For best and > consistant compatibility with legacy implementations, the redirect > functionality as documented by rfc5575bis MUST NOT be broken, and > hence when a clash occurs, then rfc5575bis based redirect MUST take > priority. Additionally, if the "Redirect to indirection-id" does not > result in a valid redirection, then the flowspec rule MUST be > processed as if the "Redirect to indirection-id" community was not > attached to the flowspec route. > " > > GV> Is there more to add to this? (We could add a line to detail that "redirect-to-ip" is incompatible with "redirect to indirection-id" and result in invalid redirection rule, however to me that is already implied with enough detail in the text above) redirect-to-ip is not core to 5575bis, so clarity as to precedence would be helpful, I think. > > A few IANA issues: > > I see the type registry is currently registered with IANA (code point 0x09). However, the sub-type registry is not established for some reason? > > The ID-Type field likely needs its own IANA registry. Values 1-5 are defined in this draft. > > GV> Correct. There is a reason for this. When we asked IANA the code-points they informed me that once the document get to RFC the sub-type registry will be established by IANA. Understood. They sometimes like to operate this way. -- Jeff From nobody Mon Dec 2 09:26:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57B6A1200C3 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 09:25:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 34sGo7uLQ0Xb for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 09:25:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50951120099 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 09:25:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 4C6511E2F5; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 12:30:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 12:30:09 -0500 From: Jeffrey Haas To: Robert Raszuk Cc: "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" , Sue Hares , "idr@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20191202173009.GH18175@pfrc.org> References: <016501d59dd2$e5458850$afd098f0$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG LC draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-10.txt [11/17/2019 to 12/2/2019] X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2019 17:25:59 -0000 Robert, On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 10:34:26AM +0100, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Gunter, > > To your and Jeff's point regarding multiple redirect rules I have a bit > different perspective. > > First let's observe that redirect could be realized in two forms (both are > valid and used in practice): > > -A- redirect of the original flow > -B- redirect of copy of the flow > > See while in -A- clearly one redirect must be used, in -B- on the > other hand multiple redirects should be supported. One span, one security > TAP, one TCP analyzer etc ... > > Your draft defines -A-. To add -B- all what is needed is just one bit flag. > > Would you consider it ? We had a bit of this discussion as part of the redirect-to-ip draft. I believe our discussion yielded that while we liked the idea and saw exactly the types of behaviors of possible benefit, we also found it unlikely that we'd get proper hardware support to do a copy to multiple destinations. I know similar issues complicate most hardware implementations of ipfix/netflow from past experience. Somewhat similar to the flow analysis case, it's common to have a device act as the primary receiver of such a flow to replicate it to the devices of interest so as to offload the work from the forwarding linecards. -- Jeff From nobody Mon Dec 2 10:29:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBACF120072 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 10:29:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P9UP0l1_ZQN4 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 10:29:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x734.google.com (mail-qk1-x734.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::734]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 703F6120090 for ; Mon, 2 Dec 2019 10:29:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x734.google.com with SMTP id b8so529431qkk.5 for ; Mon, 02 Dec 2019 10:29:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3qdhrFXHOKkIkMXjTq+U/qmylJwrMn+0tazxkokHSGc=; b=ZLlAy0FQXOPonr9+I5s3xlgsg919amgok4zstEmFo5A+L84sZfKBAZDei6H+ttfdVE NlN8sGZPlwmF0d+c/x+yXjmpm50VxP9y9c+w3Xb7ur63k8FtupUr+uN3FR8j8lpIFm/t OWenwdXg/4SJGdQmuIFiUDTeb5esrprvXPbrDdNrurP1eVE6u21wmkO08Xx8OtpJEX+/ BTt2CwW6fBsrA1QIl8FFBSEarYjsIx+Y0FHwmXXsqv5CtM0f8uFTeoKd4jDvYdtMyeI2 Rq7I6NLldwO+HkqbygGCbl3hhBH7XHp39zonHUX7v/Z0S5bBA3KsOzaP189dhR94VLn9 V7uQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3qdhrFXHOKkIkMXjTq+U/qmylJwrMn+0tazxkokHSGc=; b=Mxx27zev0lLqhFPN/aVRJNeXUX+SJlXelHYB4v7nlUN4DGg+F/78PagwkjPbUQd6GU mrY2Vk2+tqGIVDS/LxhTI16Ds5MnGAIlwcEDGAyGVA2sVvMGBqoejlC1E6XriRgH1GJw mUsHChAf4BgA6x+MvPdD8bFDnl2yZAdrw2+VDGEz2cTxSi0yjR0ccrHF7Q8tfDq5lV8K nElucBdMW9cjOIdD6jTkIGOlbnaBsJnFcyoOkG22De/KwEo5GVDNPPuHier4Q9W4zOkM ISSbJqI5dvtIE+WzuxeN+F+nyYzNH1hYbfQkSsWACOJlGbvjHBucdSl3cN9yU/WZanGF mstg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV9IoRAY+QEtRVtBHlgfMXbQPrEYTjpjmKDTiGG9bdLPJ/bhG6l Z7+wex4Lq99n784UcYzXcrkn1Arc/8m0KOY18zUug/N02ug= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw7jUueoYD/moueduY+70LmU9uwpMth84N7sizlsxORqj56RSwFS8c8T4wHmkeP/7syAmR/e4FWpK6swPbIRDw= X-Received: by 2002:a37:693:: with SMTP id 141mr234371qkg.134.1575311389351; Mon, 02 Dec 2019 10:29:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <016501d59dd2$e5458850$afd098f0$@ndzh.com> <20191202172621.GG18175@pfrc.org> In-Reply-To: <20191202172621.GG18175@pfrc.org> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2019 19:29:40 +0100 Message-ID: To: Jeffrey Haas , "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" Cc: "idr@ietf.org" , Sue Hares Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c5f3610598bcc391" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG LC draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-10.txt [11/17/2019 to 12/2/2019] X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2019 18:29:52 -0000 --000000000000c5f3610598bcc391 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > I suspect in the majority of the cases that path-redirect is intended > involving segment routing that following a segment path from a VRF context > doesn't make much sense. However, some of the cases are left as much more > abstract and perhaps they could? > IMO using flow spec extension to specify a binding SID which in turn will be replaced by explicit path is a huge mistake this draft is proposing. Sure text can take everything but the operational complexity to troubleshoot such network will be a nightmare. And if you would just specify a single SID why not to specify the IP address and be done ? Router will reach such IP via proper path. Please observe that you are now trying to mimic BGP SR Policy propagation which also includes mapping via color and policy to be used. What happens when router will receive both in a conflicting manner ? Btw what practical application is this draft trying to accomplish other then pretty badly redo subset of BGP SR Policy work ? Thx, R/ --000000000000c5f3610598bcc391 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0
I suspect in the majority of the cases = that path-redirect is intended
involving segment routing that following a segment path from a VRF context<= br> doesn't make much sense.=C2=A0 However, some of the cases are left as m= uch more
abstract and perhaps they could?

IMO us= ing flow spec extension to specify a binding SID which in turn will be repl= aced by explicit path is a huge mistake this draft is proposing. Sure text = can take everything but the operational complexity to troubleshoot such net= work will be a nightmare. And if you would just specify a single SID why no= t to specify the=C2=A0IP address and be done ? Router will reach such IP vi= a proper path.

Please observe that you are now try= ing to mimic BGP SR Policy propagation which also includes mapping via colo= r and policy to be used.=C2=A0

What happens when r= outer will receive both in a conflicting manner ?=C2=A0

Btw what practical application is this draft trying to accomplish oth= er then pretty badly redo subset of BGP SR Policy work=C2=A0?=C2=A0

Thx,
R/

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Tue, 3 Dec 2019 10:09:19 +0000 From: "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" To: Jeffrey Haas CC: Sue Hares , "idr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Idr] WG LC draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-10.txt [11/17/2019 to 12/2/2019] Thread-Index: AdWd0gRnmm6Aw4Y9ShOHyzWN65U36QIHKy+AABzOGSAAtOzfgAAiWpBw Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 10:09:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: <016501d59dd2$e5458850$afd098f0$@ndzh.com> <20191202172621.GG18175@pfrc.org> In-Reply-To: <20191202172621.GG18175@pfrc.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com; x-originating-ip: [131.228.32.163] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 0ce8d77a-781b-422f-7a69-08d777d8dceb x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM6PR07MB4536: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:4125; x-forefront-prvs: 02408926C4 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 0ce8d77a-781b-422f-7a69-08d777d8dceb X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 03 Dec 2019 10:09:19.8506 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: wGMX2/vzWIHthOQCFgREsGVOZO1Bno4i5OyjcZfQ7xBgCxY9mizjdUAjVpqm/GE8Akla3U3Sn+2iIJ5sV2PUSxeNZGQI2eJqDq2KpUSMNYo= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6PR07MB4536 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG LC draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-10.txt [11/17/2019 to 12/2/2019] X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 10:09:25 -0000 Inline: GV2> -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey Haas =20 Sent: Monday, December 2, 2019 18:26 To: Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) Cc: Sue Hares ; idr@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Idr] WG LC draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-10.txt [11/1= 7/2019 to 12/2/2019] Gunter, On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 03:51:35AM +0000, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/= Antwerp) wrote: > > Procedure-wise, there needs to be a bit more text covering cases about = interactions with other traffic actions. This was a known headache for sim= ilar drafts such as redirect-to-ip. In particular, interaction with redire= ct-to-ip and redirect-to-vrf is needed. >=20 > GV> Section "6. Validation Procedures" gives input on this. We discussed = this with you long ago and hence this text was added. >=20 > " > While it MUST NOT happen, and is seen as invalid combination, it is > possible from a semantics perspective to have multiple clashing > redirect actions defined within a single flowspec rule. For best and > consistant compatibility with legacy implementations, the redirect > functionality as documented by rfc5575bis MUST NOT be broken, and > hence when a clash occurs, then rfc5575bis based redirect MUST take > priority. > " >=20 > This means that redirect-to-VRF will take absolute priority to not break = rfc5575bis behavior. > Having also redirect-to-ip will result in an invalid Redirect-ip isn't even mentioned in the draft. Part of the reason to raise this is whether intentional interactions could = happen. As an example, redirect-ip is specced to be permitted in the conte= xt of a VRF redirection. I suspect in the majority of the cases that path-redirect is intended invol= ving segment routing that following a segment path from a VRF context doesn= 't make much sense. However, some of the cases are left as much more abstr= act and perhaps they could? My point is that a bit more normative text on the various cases would be ne= eded for interoperable code. *** GV2> The original concept was to have an abstract steering correlation towa= rds a 32bit tunnel-ID (This is an action, opaque to VRF, or any other assoc= iated contexts). If indeed a matter of context is added to the redirection = id (for example the 32 bits represent a Segment path) then that few more no= rmative text could be added on the cases. *** > > The text "A single flowspec rule MUST NOT have more as one indirection-= id per S-ID. On a flowspec client the indirection-id with lowest S-ID MUST= be imposed first for any given flowspec entry." There's no procedure for = what happens in error handling when you do have more than one of the same S= -ID. The text about the case for S-ID of 0 is also a bit ambiguous. It fe= els like it's reading "there is no sequence", but what do you do when you t= hen have ones that do? >=20 > GV> What about the following rewrite: >=20 > Original: > The 'S-ID' field identifies a 4 bit Sequence ID field. This field is > used to provide a flowspec client an indication how and where to > sequence the received indirection-ids. The Sequence ID value 0 > indicates that Sequence ID field is NOT set and SHOULD be ignored. A > single flowspec rule MUST NOT have more as one indirection-id per > S-ID. On a flowspec client the indirection-id with lowest S-ID MUST > be imposed first for any given flowspec entry. >=20 > New: > The 'S-ID' field identifies a 4 bit Sequence ID field. This field is > used to provide a flowspec client an indication how and where to > sequence the received indirection-ids. The Sequence ID value 0 > indicates that Sequence ID field is NOT set and **all other sequence I= D's** > SHOULD be ignored. A > single flowspec rule MUST NOT have more as one indirection-id per > S-ID. On a flowspec client the indirection-id with lowest S-ID MUST > be imposed first for any given flowspec entry. Aside comment: Any possibility this could be renamed Seq-Id or something si= milar to avoid name confusion to SID? The text above is clearer, but I'm not sure it really helps your case. Her= e is what I believe the intent to be in pseudo-code: if Seq-ID =3D=3D 0 is present: apply actions, if possible. exit foreach s in Seq-Id 1..15: if s is present: if action for s is possible: apply it. exit else: continue Basically, try each sequence in turn. If you can do something with it, you= 're done. If you can't (the indirection can't be applied for numerous reas= ons), try next. S-ID zero is intended to be a "hard stop". *** GV2> Thanks. let me think on how to integrate this best *** The 'C' bit also looks like it only changes the stream behavior and doesn't= impact whether the rule is terminating or not. *** GV2> correct *** What's still not covered, since these are extended communities, is cases li= ke there are two of a given S-ID present. Perhaps it was added via blind p= olicy? What do you do? =20 *** GV2> ok, my personal understanding is that rule is invalid, and then the fl= owspec rule MUST be processed as if the "Redirect to indirection-id" community was not attached= to the flowspec route. *** > " > While it MUST NOT happen, and is seen as invalid combination, it is > possible from a semantics perspective to have multiple clashing > redirect actions defined within a single flowspec rule. For best and > consistant compatibility with legacy implementations, the redirect > functionality as documented by rfc5575bis MUST NOT be broken, and > hence when a clash occurs, then rfc5575bis based redirect MUST take > priority. Additionally, if the "Redirect to indirection-id" does not > result in a valid redirection, then the flowspec rule MUST be > processed as if the "Redirect to indirection-id" community was not > attached to the flowspec route. > " >=20 > GV> Is there more to add to this? (We could add a line to detail that=20 > GV> "redirect-to-ip" is incompatible with "redirect to indirection-id"=20 > GV> and result in invalid redirection rule, however to me that is=20 > GV> already implied with enough detail in the text above) redirect-to-ip is not core to 5575bis, so clarity as to precedence would be= helpful, I think. *** GV2> ack, will add that line *** > > A few IANA issues: > > I see the type registry is currently registered with IANA (code point 0= x09). However, the sub-type registry is not established for some reason? > > The ID-Type field likely needs its own IANA registry. Values 1-5 are d= efined in this draft. >=20 > GV> Correct. There is a reason for this. When we asked IANA the code-poin= ts they informed me that once the document get to RFC the sub-type registry= will be established by IANA. Understood. 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mail-qt1-x832.google.com with SMTP id w47so3910431qtk.4 for ; Tue, 03 Dec 2019 06:21:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JDZcRX5KjdyasuPmvVgzOkv/Y8K/wCohNFU24+HUZcg=; b=ZDi8sFl9uN+xE+vpOog1pzfIP4u9GmH1Q4u8QjG+DJbagJeHbSkgoNWeuctwKr8oMp GFS3tF8s4puYWw9LaHbPnsJZu4hLskd2nqWMshfe1F61jPrhqE7SjMZ71zL+PQGIXy3v m0Wk9RXq0c1VcBcdKiQG6af6JcodqMAPbpUhuHx5XBQZTRsBM1foVC1R6OpXQem3QyAm HVGqNTz167tG4y1EQ8zkfGhbJY16m+vA4gixNoOKw7I68TxcxbQ46vsqU/RC0l0WRz2H 9iRWuscfP6lrfs9KpzTOIMvdjF6CrxTZ/dV5EPRt/YCGWZ9xETRrANLO1NpZD9wZba9W 1F0w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JDZcRX5KjdyasuPmvVgzOkv/Y8K/wCohNFU24+HUZcg=; b=hwEP1To8ellWXR2c0RalZ8v6U6GyQdTYMBpzZuj8fHgCuSVhEcFgLNKr+gRA4lC7mM 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Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG LC draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-10.txt [11/17/2019 to 12/2/2019] X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 14:21:14 -0000 --00000000000024c9cd0598cd68be Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Gunter, > That means we keep current proposed Type 0 and Type 5 > (and rename Type 5 to something more sensible in that case). Yes and that would be a great fix. To sort of cover more explicitly then via type 0 types 2,3 & 4 you may define new type to carry the "color". The same color as carried in BGP SR Policy document if you want to be SR friendly :). Then we should be fine. Cheers, R., On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 11:20 AM Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) < gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com> wrote: > BGP SR policy is different in such a way that it can not steer based upon > a flowspec tupple match. It uses a payload prefix and NH to select a > particular path policy. > > > > The original path-redirect had no additional assumptions associated and i= t > referenced a 32bit number (Type 0 Seq-ID). > > This 32bit number was used as opaque value to lookup forwarding > information. If enabled, this is what I have in running code. > > > > > > *** > > ID-Type: 1 octet value. This draft defines following Context Types: > > > > 0 - Localised ID (The flowspec client uses the received 32-bit > > indirection-id to lookup forwarding information within the > > localised indirection-id table. The allocation and programming of > > the localised indirection-id table is outside scope of the > > document) > > > > 1 - Node ID with SID/index in MPLS-based Segment Routing (This > > means the 32-bit indirection-id is mapped to an MPLS label using > > the index as a global offset in the SID/label space) > > > > 2 - Node ID with SID/label in MPLS-based Segment Routing (This > > means the 32-bit indirection-id is mapped to an MPLS label using > > the 32-bit indirection-id as global label) > > > > 3 - Binding Segment ID with SID/index in MPLS-based Segment > > Routing (This means the 32-bit indirection-id is mapped to an MPLS > > binding label using the indirection-id as index for global offset > > in the SID/label space) [I-D.draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing] > > [6] > > > > 4 - Binding Segment ID with SID/label in MPLS-based Segment > > Routing (This means 32-bit indirection-id is mapped to an MPLS > > binding label using the 32-bit indirection-id as global label) [I- > > D.draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing] [6] > > > > 5 - Tunnel ID (Tunnel ID is within a single administrative domain > > a 32-bit globally unique tunnel identifier. The allocation and > > programming of the Tunnel ID within the localised indirection-id > > table is outside scope of the document) > > > > Generalized indirection_id: 32-bit identifier used as indirection_id > > > > *** > > > > I do have sympathy for your suggestion to simplify assuming if the genera= l > WG feels that there is too much overlap between the BGP SR Policy > propagation and the current indirection Type 1, 2, 3, 4? We could drop > those Type=E2=80=99s from the current draft and simplify interop complexi= ty? That > means we keep current proposed Type 0 and Type 5 (and rename Type 5 to > something more sensible in that case). > > > > G/ > > > > *From:* Robert Raszuk > *Sent:* Monday, December 2, 2019 19:30 > *To:* Jeffrey Haas ; Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - > BE/Antwerp) > *Cc:* idr@ietf.org; Sue Hares > *Subject:* Re: [Idr] WG LC draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-10.txt > [11/17/2019 to 12/2/2019] > > > > > > I suspect in the majority of the cases that path-redirect is intended > involving segment routing that following a segment path from a VRF contex= t > doesn't make much sense. However, some of the cases are left as much mor= e > abstract and perhaps they could? > > > > IMO using flow spec extension to specify a binding SID which in turn will > be replaced by explicit path is a huge mistake this draft is proposing. > Sure text can take everything but the operational complexity to > troubleshoot such network will be a nightmare. And if you would just > specify a single SID why not to specify the IP address and be done ? Rout= er > will reach such IP via proper path. > > > > Please observe that you are now trying to mimic BGP SR Policy propagation > which also includes mapping via color and policy to be used. > > > > What happens when router will receive both in a conflicting manner ? > > > > Btw what practical application is this draft trying to accomplish other > then pretty badly redo subset of BGP SR Policy work ? > > > > Thx, > R/ > > > --00000000000024c9cd0598cd68be Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Gunter,

> That means we keep cur= rent proposed Type 0 and Type 5=C2=A0
> (and rename Type 5 to = something more sensible in that case).=C2=A0=C2=A0

=
Yes and that would be a great fix.=C2=A0

To s= ort of cover more explicitly=C2=A0then via type 0 types 2,3 & 4 you may= define new type to carry the "color". The same color as carried = in BGP SR Policy document if you want to be SR friendly :).=C2=A0

Then we should be fine.=C2=A0

Chee= rs,
R.,

On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 11:20 AM Van De Velde, Gunter= (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) <= gunter.van_de_velde@nokia.com> wrote:

BGP SR policy is different in such a way that it can= not steer based upon a flowspec tupple match. It uses a payload prefix and= NH to select a particular path policy.

=C2=A0

The original path-redirect had no additional assumpt= ions associated and it referenced a 32bit number (Type 0 Seq-ID).=

This 32bit number was used as opaque value to lookup= forwarding information. If enabled, this is what I have in running code.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

***

=C2=A0=C2=A0 ID-Type: 1 octet value.=C2=A0 This draf= t defines following Context Types:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 0 - Localised ID (The= flowspec client uses the received 32-bit

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 indirection-id to loo= kup forwarding information within the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 localised indirection= -id table.=C2=A0 The allocation and programming of

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the localised indirec= tion-id table is outside scope of the

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 document)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1 - Node ID with SID/= index in MPLS-based Segment Routing (This

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 means the 32-bit indi= rection-id is mapped to an MPLS label using

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the index as a global= offset in the SID/label space)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2 - Node ID with SID/= label in MPLS-based Segment Routing (This

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 means the 32-bit indi= rection-id is mapped to an MPLS label using

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the 32-bit indirectio= n-id as global label)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3 - Binding Segment I= D with SID/index in MPLS-based Segment

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Routing (This means t= he 32-bit indirection-id is mapped to an MPLS

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 binding label using t= he indirection-id as index for global offset

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 in the SID/label spac= e) [I-D.draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing]

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 [6]

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 4 - Binding Segment I= D with SID/label in MPLS-based Segment

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Routing (This means 3= 2-bit indirection-id is mapped to an MPLS

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 binding label using t= he 32-bit indirection-id as global label) [I-

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 D.draft-ietf-spring-s= egment-routing] [6]

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 5 - Tunnel ID (Tunnel= ID is within a single administrative domain

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a 32-bit globally uni= que tunnel identifier.=C2=A0 The allocation and

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 programming of the Tu= nnel ID within the localised indirection-id

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 table is outside scop= e of the document)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Generalized indirection_id: 32-bit iden= tifier used as indirection_id

=C2=A0

***

=C2=A0

I do have sympathy for your suggestion to simplify a= ssuming if the general WG feels that there is too much overlap between the = BGP SR Policy propagation and the current indirection Type 1, 2, 3, 4? We c= ould drop those Type=E2=80=99s from the current draft and simplify interop complexity? That means we keep current proposed= Type 0 and Type 5 (and rename Type 5 to something more sensible in that ca= se).

=C2=A0

G/

=C2=A0

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Sent: Monday, December 2, 2019 19:30
To: Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org>; Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) <= gunter.v= an_de_velde@nokia.com>
Cc: idr@ietf.org; Sue Hares <shar= es@ndzh.com>
Subject: Re: [Idr] WG LC draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-10.tx= t [11/17/2019 to 12/2/2019]

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I suspect in the majority of the cases that path-red= irect is intended
involving segment routing that following a segment path from a VRF context<= br> doesn't make much sense.=C2=A0 However, some of the cases are left as m= uch more
abstract and perhaps they could?

=C2=A0

IMO using flow spec extension to specify a binding S= ID which in turn will be replaced by explicit path is a huge mistake this d= raft is proposing. Sure text can take everything but the operational comple= xity to troubleshoot such network will be a nightmare. And if you would just specify a single SID why not to= specify the=C2=A0IP address and be done ? Router will reach such IP via pr= oper path.

=C2=A0

Please observe that you are now trying to mimic BGP = SR Policy propagation which also includes mapping via color and policy to b= e used.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

What happens when router will receive both in a conf= licting manner ?=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Btw what practical application is this draft trying = to accomplish other then pretty badly redo subset of BGP SR Policy work=C2= =A0?=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thx,
R/

=C2=A0

--00000000000024c9cd0598cd68be-- From nobody Tue Dec 3 06:51:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2EA4120025 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 06:51:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LluaO_8EbP8a for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 06:51:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9027120019 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 06:51:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0C26A1E2F5; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 09:55:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 09:55:56 -0500 From: Jeffrey Haas To: Jared Mauch Cc: Robert Raszuk , IDR Message-ID: <20191203145556.GB5160@pfrc.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Debugging accepted routes from BGP speakers X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 14:51:47 -0000 [Answering a point elsewhere in thread.] On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 05:47:35PM +0800, Jared Mauch wrote: > There are varying desires from operators. It may be as simple as a count to the list of accepted or rejected NLRI. > > If you look at the text the desire is to know is this path eligible for selection. That is accepted. The lack of consistent proxy loop detection across implementations will make this messy. If downstream router will consider route R a loop, but upstream sent it, you now have a discrepancy that will show up in a mechanism like this. What do you want the behavior to be? Add-paths means that you'll send R1, R2, R3 all with the same destination. Are you really happy getting back R1, R2, R3 with the same path id as confirmation that the route is eligible? -- Jeff From nobody Tue Dec 3 12:43:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DBC112003E for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 12:43:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.402 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.402 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, PDS_BTC_ID=0.499, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pLgzxXDvDgB7 for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 12:43:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C41412002F for ; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 12:43:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 13A1C1E2F5; Tue, 3 Dec 2019 15:47:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 15:47:15 -0500 From: Jeffrey Haas To: "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" Cc: Sue Hares , "idr@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20191203204715.GA24816@pfrc.org> References: <016501d59dd2$e5458850$afd098f0$@ndzh.com> <20191202172621.GG18175@pfrc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG LC draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-10.txt [11/17/2019 to 12/2/2019] X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 20:43:05 -0000 Gunter, On Tue, Dec 03, 2019 at 10:09:19AM +0000, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) wrote: > > Redirect-ip isn't even mentioned in the draft. > > > > Part of the reason to raise this is whether intentional interactions could happen. As an example, redirect-ip is specced to be permitted in the context of a VRF redirection. > > > > I suspect in the majority of the cases that path-redirect is intended involving segment routing that following a segment path from a VRF context doesn't make much sense. However, some of the cases are left as much more abstract and perhaps they could? > > > > My point is that a bit more normative text on the various cases would be needed for interoperable code. > > *** > GV2> The original concept was to have an abstract steering correlation towards a 32bit tunnel-ID (This is an action, opaque to VRF, or any other associated contexts). If indeed a matter of context is added to the redirection id (for example the 32 bits represent a Segment path) then that few more normative text could be added on the cases. It makes sense to do that then. The redirect-ip case does specifically call out that you can do the redirect in the VRF table context. What you'll be doing is effectively highlighting whether the abstract indirection table is box-wide or scoped to specific tables. Ideally, this will let you think through the yang implications of the feature as well. > > Basically, try each sequence in turn. If you can do something with it, you're done. If you can't (the indirection can't be applied for numerous reasons), try next. S-ID zero is intended to be a "hard stop". > > *** > GV2> Thanks. let me think on how to integrate this best Thanks. I think that will add needed clarity. > > What's still not covered, since these are extended communities, is cases like there are two of a given S-ID present. Perhaps it was added via blind policy? What do you do? > > *** > GV2> ok, my personal understanding is that rule is invalid, and then the flowspec rule MUST be > processed as if the "Redirect to indirection-id" community was not attached to the flowspec route. That's one option. A similar one includes testing the usability of the rule, as I noted in the pseudocode. Let me drawn an analogy (perhaps a poor one) from redirect-ip: Consider a flowspec route with redirect-IP:A and redirect-ip:B. If A is resolvable (per BGP route resolution rules) and B is not, it's clearer that you want to use what can actually work. If both are resolvable, then an implementation may choose to use both for load balancing. Going back to indirection-id, if you have conflicting rules, but similar "can this work" tests, do you really want to reject it solely because the rules may appear conflicting? Perhaps. Unlike redirect-to-ip, I have no strong opinions about whether to permit load balancing or other similar behaviors rather than consider it invalid. What I will absolutely note is that troubleshooting this from extended community output on a BGP route is likely to be more than a little awkward at best. Consider that most implementations tend to simply display extended communities in their internal sort order (often effectively memcmp()) rather than something that's more lexicographically ordered for troubleshooting this feature. -- Jeff From nobody Wed Dec 4 01:27:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E77EF120119 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 01:27:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.62 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, RCVD_IN_XBL=0.375, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uBePLP7sydmB for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 01:27:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (50-245-122-100-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.245.122.100]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3703C120024 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 01:27:07 -0800 (PST) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=166.170.20.155; From: "Susan Hares" To: Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 04:27:03 -0500 Message-ID: <01d301d5aa84$fd58fc10$f80af430$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AdWqhMBAtR+4rWeURA+LdnP9PjCzAQ== Content-Language: en-us X-Antivirus: AVG (VPS 191203-4, 12/03/2019), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Not-Tested X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] WG LC draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-path-redirect-10.txt [11/17/2019 to 12/2/2019] - extended to 12/9/2019 X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2019 09:27:08 -0000 Greetings: Due to a personal emergency, I cannot judge the passage of this WG LC this week. Therefore, I am extending the call 1 week. I hope you will continue conversations on the draft. A bit thanks to all who have been chatting about this draft. Cheerily, Susan Hares From nobody Wed Dec 4 11:33:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C36EA12093F for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 11:33:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net header.b=y6xNkc+1; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=juniper.net header.b=hdENKqw+ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mnD_T5ps63mw for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 11:33:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com [208.84.65.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4FEF12096A for ; 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Wed, 04 Dec 2019 12:42:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.5.5.194] ([50.235.77.202]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z1sm9337662pfk.61.2019.12.04.12.42.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 04 Dec 2019 12:42:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 12:42:39 -0800 From: Jeff Tantsura To: idr wg , John Scudder Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: X-Readdle-Message-ID: c64aa987-08c1-41ab-97e3-251991ff87e5@Spark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="5de81a45_45e6d486_55fa" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP autodiscovery design team X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2019 20:42:51 -0000 --5de81a45_45e6d486_55fa Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline John, Thanks for sending out=21 Count me in as a volunteer Cheers, Jeff On Dec 4, 2019, 11:33 AM -0800, John Scudder , wrote: > Hi All, > > I realized this morning that although we announced in the last meeting = that we=E2=80=99re forming this design team, we never announced it on the= list. This is to correct that mistake. Here=E2=80=99s the text of the sl= ide we presented at the meeting (https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106= /materials/slides-106-idr-sessa-auto-discovery-design-team-chairs-00): > > --- > Autodiscovery > > =E2=80=A2 Clear interest in WG to work on this topic. > =E2=80=A2 No clear consensus on a specific approach. > =E2=80=A2 Proposals (four of them) progressively closer semantically, s= eems likely convergence can happen. > =E2=80=A2 But, important differences remain. > =E2=80=A2 At least: transport (L2, L3), liveness, security, maybe multi= hop. > =E2=80=A2 Chairs propose to charter a design team to close on a single = proposal, by next meeting. > =E2=80=A2 Might build on one of the existing drafts, might be a new dra= ft, up to the design team. > =E2=80=A2 Emphasis on pragmatism, OK to limit applicability (for exampl= e, to a single administrative domain). > =E2=80=A2 Questions=3F Comments=3F Volunteers=3F > =E2=80=94 > > We are in the process of forming the team and hope to announce it soon.= We have many good volunteers already but if you didn=E2=80=99t know and = do want to volunteer, please contact Sue and me. > > Note that the design team will not make any binding decisions: as with = all WG work, the WG has the final word, so any output of the DT will serv= e as input to the WG as a whole. (So even if you aren=E2=80=99t part of t= he DT, that doesn=E2=80=99t mean you won=E2=80=99t have a chance to be pa= rt of the process.) > > Thanks, > > =E2=80=94John > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > Idr mailing list > Idr=40ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr --5de81a45_45e6d486_55fa Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
John,

Thanks for sending out=21
Count me in as a volunteer

Cheers,
Jeff
On Dec 4, 2019, 11:33 AM -0800, Joh= n Scudder <jgs=3D40juniper.net=40dmarc.ietf.org>, wrote:
Hi= All,

I realized this morning that although we announced in the last meeting th= at we=E2=80=99re forming this design team, we never announced it on the l= ist. This is to correct that mistake. Here=E2=80=99s the text of the slid= e we presented at the meeting (https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/m= aterials/slides-106-idr-sessa-auto-discovery-design-team-chairs-00):

---
Autodiscovery

=E2=80=A2 Clear interest in WG to work on this topic.
=E2=80=A2 No clear consensus on a specific approach.
=E2=80=A2 Proposals (four of them) progressively closer semantically, see= ms likely convergence can happen.
=E2=80=A2 But, important differences remain.
=E2=80=A2 At least: transport (L2, L3), liveness, security, maybe multiho= p.
=E2=80=A2 Chairs propose to charter a design team to close on a single pr= oposal, by next meeting.
=E2=80=A2 Might build on one of the existing drafts, might be a new draft= , up to the design team.
=E2=80=A2 Emphasis on pragmatism, OK to limit applicability (for example,= to a single administrative domain).
=E2=80=A2 Questions=3F Comments=3F Volunteers=3F
=E2=80=94

We are in the process of forming the team and hope to announce it soon. W= e have many good volunteers already but if you didn=E2=80=99t know and do= want to volunteer, please contact Sue and me.

Note that the design team will not make any binding decisions: as with al= l WG work, the WG has the final word, so any output of the DT will serve = as input to the WG as a whole. (So even if you aren=E2=80=99t part of the= DT, that doesn=E2=80=99t mean you won=E2=80=99t have a chance to be part= of the process.)

Thanks,

=E2=80=94John
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
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Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qthxWHIqqDIQ for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 12:54:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x72d.google.com (mail-qk1-x72d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 540C0120934 for ; Wed, 4 Dec 2019 12:54:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x72d.google.com with SMTP id m188so1331384qkc.4 for ; Wed, 04 Dec 2019 12:54:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2uEMl0cg2UoucjXoysWp+/ixGVlFjTy8raVMgYeZP3s=; b=OQsvbZsTOAq9YM1ArX3EPEarchcOMitEWKcboo20Gl6qIXG1Rq6hx5dcBRxXi2Hlov 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X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzj7h93arOSLtN4cAYigTD08r4NhFPvBh8eg5DIXhevPC/xbsQpivqL1O1fafSZ3x3Na/J9hT3Ih1SUxsreLHc= X-Received: by 2002:a37:4a0a:: with SMTP id x10mr1952954qka.302.1575492850259; Wed, 04 Dec 2019 12:54:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 21:54:02 +0100 Message-ID: To: John Scudder Cc: idr wg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000afaf790598e703a6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP autodiscovery design team X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2019 20:54:13 -0000 --000000000000afaf790598e703a6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi John, When this was announced I asked if this design team scope is to work on discovering your BGP peers in DC space or also in WAN and IX environments. As you know I have been focusing on the latter for a number of years and I can share that discovering p2p eBGP peers requires a very different solutions as compared with discovering your iBGP peers or IX members. So please kindly clarify the scope of this effort here. Just stating BGP autodiscovery IMHO is too broad at this point. Likewise working on the DC space and declaring we are done with BGP autodiscovery all together would not be in the best interest of the protocol. I suggest that this effort be called BGP DC or p2p autodiscovery. Many thx, Robert. On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 8:33 PM John Scudder wrote: > Hi All, > > I realized this morning that although we announced in the last meeting > that we=E2=80=99re forming this design team, we never announced it on the= list. > This is to correct that mistake. Here=E2=80=99s the text of the slide we = presented > at the meeting ( > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/materials/slides-106-idr-sessa-a= uto-discovery-design-team-chairs-00 > ): > > --- > Autodiscovery > > =E2=80=A2 Clear interest in WG to work on this topic. > =E2=80=A2 No clear consensus on a specific approach. > =E2=80=A2 Proposals (four of them) progressively closer semantically, see= ms likely > convergence can happen. > =E2=80=A2 But, important differences remain. > =E2=80=A2 At least: transport (L2, L3), liveness, security, maybe= multihop. > =E2=80=A2 Chairs propose to charter a design team to close on a single pr= oposal, > by next meeting. > =E2=80=A2 Might build on one of the existing drafts, might be a n= ew draft, > up to the design team. > =E2=80=A2 Emphasis on pragmatism, OK to limit applicability (for = example, > to a single administrative domain). > =E2=80=A2 Questions? Comments? Volunteers? > =E2=80=94 > > We are in the process of forming the team and hope to announce it soon. W= e > have many good volunteers already but if you didn=E2=80=99t know and do w= ant to > volunteer, please contact Sue and me. > > Note that the design team will not make any binding decisions: as with al= l > WG work, the WG has the final word, so any output of the DT will serve as > input to the WG as a whole. (So even if you aren=E2=80=99t part of the DT= , that > doesn=E2=80=99t mean you won=E2=80=99t have a chance to be part of the pr= ocess.) > > Thanks, > > =E2=80=94John > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > --000000000000afaf790598e703a6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi John,

When this was announced=C2=A0I= asked if this design team scope is to work on discovering your BGP peers i= n DC space or also in WAN and IX environments.=C2=A0

As you know I have been focusing on the latter for a number of=C2=A0year= s and I can share that discovering p2p eBGP=C2=A0peers requires a very diff= erent solutions as compared with discovering your iBGP peers or IX members.= =C2=A0

So please kindly clarify the scope of this = effort here.=C2=A0

Just stating BGP autodiscovery = IMHO is too broad at this=C2=A0point. Likewise working on the DC space and = declaring we are done with BGP autodiscovery all together would not be in t= he best interest of the protocol.=C2=A0

I suggest = that this effort be called BGP DC or p2p autodiscovery.=C2=A0
Many thx,
Robert.


On Wed, Dec 4, = 2019 at 8:33 PM John Scudder <jgs=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Hi All,

I realized this morning that although we announced in the last meeting that= we=E2=80=99re forming this design team, we never announced it on the list.= This is to correct that mistake. Here=E2=80=99s the text of the slide we p= resented at the meeting (https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/= materials/slides-106-idr-sessa-auto-discovery-design-team-chairs-00):
---
Autodiscovery

=E2=80=A2 Clear interest in WG to work on this topic.
=E2=80=A2 No clear consensus on a specific approach.
=E2=80=A2 Proposals (four of them) progressively closer semantically, seems= likely convergence can happen.
=E2=80=A2 But, important differences remain.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 At least: transport (L2, L3), livenes= s, security, maybe multihop.
=E2=80=A2 Chairs propose to charter a design team to close on a single prop= osal, by next meeting.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 Might build on one of the existing dr= afts, might be a new draft, up to the design team.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 Emphasis on pragmatism, OK to limit a= pplicability (for example, to a single administrative domain).
=E2=80=A2 Questions? Comments? Volunteers?
=E2=80=94

We are in the process of forming the team and hope to announce it soon. We = have many good volunteers already but if you didn=E2=80=99t know and do wan= t to volunteer, please contact Sue and me.

Note that the design team will not make any binding decisions: as with all = WG work, the WG has the final word, so any output of the DT will serve as i= nput to the WG as a whole. (So even if you aren=E2=80=99t part of the DT, t= hat doesn=E2=80=99t mean you won=E2=80=99t have a chance to be part of the = process.)

Thanks,

=E2=80=94John
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mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 11:26:00 +0800 From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" To: John Scudder , idr wg Thread-Topic: BGP autodiscovery design team Thread-Index: AQHVqtmqrRq1UF+NcE2nCZoCamlAGKeq4QCQ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 03:26:00 +0000 Message-ID: <76CD132C3ADEF848BD84D028D243C927CD47FE44@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.153.183.49] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP autodiscovery design team X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2019 03:26:11 -0000 SGkgSm9obiwgDQoNCkknZCBsaWtlIHRvIHZvbHVudGVlciBhcyB3ZWxsLiBUaGFua3MuDQoNCkJl 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14.3.408.0; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 03:37:17 +0000 Received: from lhreml721-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.72) by lhreml721-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.72) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1713.5; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 03:37:17 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM424-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.198.41) by lhreml721-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.72) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.1713.5 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 03:37:16 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM506-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.201]) by dggemm424-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.198.41]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 11:37:11 +0800 From: "Liubing (Remy)" To: John Scudder CC: "idr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: BGP autodiscovery design team Thread-Index: AQHVqtmqrRq1UF+NcE2nCZoCamlAGKeq5ILA Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 03:37:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US 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[73.231.117.2]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j28sm9847680pgb.36.2019.12.04.22.43.10 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 04 Dec 2019 22:43:10 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Gaurav Dawra Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 22:43:09 -0800 Message-Id: References: Cc: John Scudder , idr wg In-Reply-To: To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A878) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP autodiscovery design team X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2019 06:43:13 -0000 Hi, I can help out as well. Gaurav Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 4, 2019, at 10:35 PM, Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) w= rote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHi John/Sue, >=20 > I would like to volunteer for this design team. >=20 > Thanks, > Ketan >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Idr On Behalf Of John Scudder > Sent: 05 December 2019 01:03 > To: idr wg > Subject: [Idr] BGP autodiscovery design team >=20 > Hi All, >=20 > I realized this morning that although we announced in the last meeting tha= t we=E2=80=99re forming this design team, we never announced it on the list.= This is to correct that mistake. Here=E2=80=99s the text of the slide we pr= esented at the meeting (https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/materials/s= lides-106-idr-sessa-auto-discovery-design-team-chairs-00): >=20 > --- > Autodiscovery >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Clear interest in WG to work on this topic. > =E2=80=A2 No clear consensus on a specific approach. > =E2=80=A2 Proposals (four of them) progressively closer semantically, seem= s likely convergence can happen.=20 > =E2=80=A2 But, important differences remain. > =E2=80=A2 At least: transport (L2, L3), liveness, security, maybe multi= hop. > =E2=80=A2 Chairs propose to charter a design team to close on a single pro= posal, by next meeting. > =E2=80=A2 Might build on one of the existing drafts, might be a new dra= ft, up to the design team. > =E2=80=A2 Emphasis on pragmatism, OK to limit applicability (for exampl= e, to a single administrative domain).=20 > =E2=80=A2 Questions? Comments? Volunteers? > =E2=80=94 >=20 > We are in the process of forming the team and hope to announce it soon. We= have many good volunteers already but if you didn=E2=80=99t know and do wan= t to volunteer, please contact Sue and me.=20 >=20 > Note that the design team will not make any binding decisions: as with all= WG work, the WG has the final word, so any output of the DT will serve as i= nput to the WG as a whole. (So even if you aren=E2=80=99t part of the DT, th= at doesn=E2=80=99t mean you won=E2=80=99t have a chance to be part of the pr= ocess.) >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > =E2=80=94John > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr From nobody Thu Dec 5 01:24:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFD8B1200F1 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 01:24:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hqdxuTM9vgqr for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 01:24:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxhk.zte.com.cn (mxhk.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE44C1200A4 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 01:24:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxct.zte.com.cn (unknown [192.168.164.215]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTPS id CC166128D70662D0EF05 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 17:24:25 +0800 (CST) Received: from mse-fl1.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.14.238]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTPS id B4467FE962DB493927C4; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 17:24:25 +0800 (CST) Received: from kjyxapp03.zte.com.cn ([10.30.12.202]) by mse-fl1.zte.com.cn with SMTP id xB58W6Vu092444; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 16:32:06 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from zhou.jin6@zte.com.cn) Received: from mapi (kjyxapp03[null]) by mapi (Zmail) with MAPI id mid14; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 16:32:06 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 16:32:06 +0800 (CST) X-Zmail-TransId: 2b055de8c086e980efb6 X-Mailer: Zmail v1.0 Message-ID: <201912051632060087316@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: <201912051546228237906@zte.com.cn> References: E7E38075-54F2-4F16-97BE-EE24943B5BFE@juniper.net, 201912051546228237906@zte.com.cn Mime-Version: 1.0 From: To: Cc: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====_001_next=====" X-MAIL: mse-fl1.zte.com.cn xB58W6Vu092444 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] =?utf-8?q?Fw=3A_BGP_autodiscovery_design_team?= X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2019 09:24:33 -0000 --=====_001_next===== Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="=====_002_next=====" --=====_002_next===== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====_003_next=====" 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(PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Uuu3v94z-7Mf for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 05:50:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail3.mlpsca01.us.to.gin.ntt.net (mail3.mlpsca01.us.to.gin.ntt.net [IPv6:2001:418:1401:17::242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80EEE120013 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 05:50:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail3.mlpsca01.us.to.gin.ntt.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1icrWH-0005Fu-23 (job@us.ntt.net) for idr@ietf.org; Thu, 05 Dec 2019 13:50:13 +0000 Received: by mail-oi1-f179.google.com with SMTP id i1so2750559oie.8 for ; Thu, 05 Dec 2019 05:50:12 -0800 (PST) X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUU/abH5fd1Wy/Hasl6pe7gw9DDRb9LehHvmQngPKhrpHmYFfmy YjDiBjLm/VmR7BD1HTtVcBraqBtMd82L8HCMsGcaOg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx9Zw2FTAZIlIEBVsjNjD1szSbClXFHN7a/YNPIVQJopcNHjt/v7ijZ3cbf/FEv3yX9/PKIL+UKcuHElEumQfw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:24e:: with SMTP id m14mr1422454oie.168.1575553812429; Thu, 05 Dec 2019 05:50:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Job Snijders Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 14:50:01 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: "UTTARO, JAMES" Cc: John Scudder , Robert Raszuk , idr wg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005090a90598f535d1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP autodiscovery design team X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2019 13:50:16 -0000 --0000000000005090a90598f535d1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 14:46 UTTARO, JAMES wrote: > *I agree with Roberts=E2=80=99 point. Prior to crafting or selecting a dr= aft as > the basis for a proposal the design team should clearly articulate the > scope, use cases and requirements that need to be addressed. IMO stating > that in an informational RFC is a good way to ensure that all stakeholder= s > are in agreement as to what the eventual specification/draft addresses, a= nd > as important does not address. When creating EVPN we first crafted an > informational RFC https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7209 > that specified Active/Active > Multi-homing, flooding and multicast optimization etc=E2=80=A6 which form= ed the > basis for the RFC 7432. This focused the design team on realizing the > requirements articulated there.* > I think the above is good feedback. Also, it appears the entire working groep is interested to be part of the design team. Perhaps the design team=E2=80=99s mailing list should be idr@i= etf.org? :-) Kind regards, Job --0000000000005090a90598f535d1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 14:46 UTTARO, JAMES <ju1738@att.com> wrote:

I = agree with Roberts=E2=80=99 point. Prior to crafting or selecting a draft a= s the basis for a proposal the design team should clearly articulate the sc= ope, use cases and requirements that need to be addressed. IMO stating that in an informational RFC is a good way to en= sure that all stakeholders are in agreement as to what the eventual specifi= cation/draft addresses, and as important does not address. When creating EV= PN we first crafted an informational RFC http= s://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7209 that specified Active/Active Multi-homi= ng, flooding and multicast optimization etc=E2=80=A6 which formed the basis= for the RFC 7432. This focused the design team on realizing the requirements articulated there.


I think the above is good fe= edback.

Also, it appears= the entire working groep is interested to be part of the design team. Perh= aps the design team=E2=80=99s mailing list should be idr@ietf.org? :-)

Kind regards,

= Job
--0000000000005090a90598f535d1-- From nobody Thu Dec 5 05:59:02 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4BAA1200C4 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 05:59:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ONDKQ82HqV7z for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 05:58:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x730.google.com (mail-qk1-x730.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::730]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD24412004A for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 05:58:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x730.google.com with SMTP id c124so3411557qkg.0 for ; Thu, 05 Dec 2019 05:58:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=UHE5pHTMDQZWxDLhNWc1CNfEl7gTj0dQ+Yu+bptJYJc=; b=as/Bm74LBG0FOxyFKbGeyz9/X/oO+pSUoonYrvSN8OYH64ABkw3AKMpfEXUMj8r7bt 9zfyF3GAJkxqhfe3FAMtja2zYDt29o2/2BbnwYhiFBsVdqPXvzzjyp9NLcbhrHWKhGud rNhfJ4pVsV8MNjpjKvepD9SZnOMjwDLdU/pzXsCXSRg6ONpSv92CyN61l+uiex4cSR7J K3fBCJY9cQe1p9HIiVuXlAGLQFMAC5/gbDYiSm1H/7mgcDujKElJ6w/BC/fzKaGI45LI r61RMD5T9OqZ8MiCphPnrerRqX8ZtLKLBz3322eBgCQVWXgpO0s6/q7WBFQ+6AlESY7K 62eQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=UHE5pHTMDQZWxDLhNWc1CNfEl7gTj0dQ+Yu+bptJYJc=; b=rbw59VLzsIYZdIZlrx6u5Z0U8xNp/ZS2JjpBq5mDk/TD9mjoLwaH4iPABb67c3HS1R Mx6HeIToiC3CzBeHl8kR0aAmDTCOVjxfoBYus8ptWeP7u1MY8Ez3ct2RieytJTPsjAdh gg9V5Qovp+nNZWBAjTQqATyLEPX8ODbiIhyaoDt4/4XwvVA8D4bUEG+pMh9x/l1rCNkQ aFg19lgJVSQMiK4I1/YIgH19jABS3fL9IU2qFbo1nTHz2raNDcI9ooWasMGKsr3sEscp Pjlm3l6509rJlDIuOWwko4cFzOaeaaj2UZN7475COVwDxgWgJQd1wonEcWXhTMTgQGQU ssDw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXM/TkVHdN5dUBICxUesImzP3rK7ZN8+Yor5AK/7QSRIl8UMBAT aFVU4we9MVVoN8rLTtSI6wwh5Y84fkcSDHJ2wF85LtaYjSQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwFITiXQi4nUMKJU+aa0ARmiaHzppwn50TDGlQsFu0E7rk6rjr/81zgSFuHGfpxj1xisdACt8ajbknWpEy8X44= X-Received: by 2002:a37:62d2:: with SMTP id w201mr7931553qkb.445.1575554337700; Thu, 05 Dec 2019 05:58:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 14:58:43 +0100 Message-ID: To: Job Snijders Cc: "UTTARO, JAMES" , John Scudder , idr wg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009f98a00598f554b4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP autodiscovery design team X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2019 13:59:01 -0000 --0000000000009f98a00598f554b4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Job, > Perhaps the design team=E2=80=99s mailing list should be idr@ietf.org Indeed ! I do not understand why there is any need for "design team" if required functionality is about one of the core protocol functionality. What are we trying to achieve - if someone on IDR is not interested given mail thread can be easily moved to trash. Hi Jim, Many thx for your opinion. Very much appreciated here. Also as we see from some proposals the core DC auto peering (also called by some as "autodiscovery") can be done with the assistance of existing L2 protocols. So I think the fundamental first question is if this work even belongs to IDR. Thx, R. On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 2:50 PM Job Snijders wrote: > On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 14:46 UTTARO, JAMES wrote: > >> *I agree with Roberts=E2=80=99 point. Prior to crafting or selecting a d= raft as >> the basis for a proposal the design team should clearly articulate the >> scope, use cases and requirements that need to be addressed. IMO stating >> that in an informational RFC is a good way to ensure that all stakeholde= rs >> are in agreement as to what the eventual specification/draft addresses, = and >> as important does not address. When creating EVPN we first crafted an >> informational RFC https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7209 >> that specified Active/Active >> Multi-homing, flooding and multicast optimization etc=E2=80=A6 which for= med the >> basis for the RFC 7432. This focused the design team on realizing the >> requirements articulated there.* >> > > I think the above is good feedback. > > Also, it appears the entire working groep is interested to be part of the > design team. Perhaps the design team=E2=80=99s mailing list should be idr= @ietf.org? > :-) > > Kind regards, > > Job > --0000000000009f98a00598f554b4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Job,

>=C2=A0 Perhaps the design team=E2=80=99s mailing lis= t should be idr@ietf.org<= /a>=C2=A0

=

Hi Jim,

Many= thx for your opinion. Very much appreciated here.=C2=A0

Also as we see from some proposals the core DC auto peering (also ca= lled by some as "autodiscovery") can be done with the assistance= =C2=A0of=C2=A0existing=C2=A0L2 protocols. So I think the fundamental first = question is if this work even belongs to IDR.=C2=A0

Thx,
R.



On = Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 2:50 PM Job Snijders <job@ntt.net> wrote:
On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 14:46 UTTARO, JAMES <ju1738@att.com> wrote:
<= /div>

I agree with Roberts=E2=80=99 point. Prior to crafting or selecting a d= raft as the basis for a proposal the design team should clearly articulate = the scope, use cases and requirements that need to be addressed. IMO stating that in an informational RFC is a good way to en= sure that all stakeholders are in agreement as to what the eventual specifi= cation/draft addresses, and as important does not address. When creating EV= PN we first crafted an informational RFC http= s://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7209 that specified Active/Active Multi-homi= ng, flooding and multicast optimization etc=E2=80=A6 which formed the basis= for the RFC 7432. This focused the design team on realizing the requirements articulated there.


I think the above is good fe= edback.

Also, it appears= the entire working groep is interested to be part of the design team. Perh= aps the design team=E2=80=99s mailing list should be idr@ietf.org? :-)
Kind regards,

Job
--0000000000009f98a00598f554b4-- From nobody Thu Dec 5 14:15:42 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACDCF120168 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 14:15:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FfJF2kXf7eGw for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 14:15:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E50EE1201CE for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 14:15:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from dresden.attlocal.net (99-59-193-67.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net [99.59.193.67]) by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 878121E2F2; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 17:19:53 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3601.0.10\)) From: Jeffrey Haas In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 17:15:36 -0500 Cc: idr wg Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2D145A2C-2498-413B-A805-79E4DF8876FE@pfrc.org> References: To: John Scudder X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3601.0.10) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP autodiscovery design team X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2019 22:15:41 -0000 Publicly echoing my private responses, I'm willing to be on the design = team. -- Jeff > On Dec 4, 2019, at 2:33 PM, John Scudder = wrote: >=20 > Hi All, >=20 > I realized this morning that although we announced in the last meeting = that we=E2=80=99re forming this design team, we never announced it on = the list. This is to correct that mistake. Here=E2=80=99s the text of = the slide we presented at the meeting = (https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/materials/slides-106-idr-sessa-a= uto-discovery-design-team-chairs-00): >=20 > --- > Autodiscovery >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Clear interest in WG to work on this topic. > =E2=80=A2 No clear consensus on a specific approach. > =E2=80=A2 Proposals (four of them) progressively closer semantically, = seems likely convergence can happen.=20 > =E2=80=A2 But, important differences remain. > =E2=80=A2 At least: transport (L2, L3), liveness, security, = maybe multihop. > =E2=80=A2 Chairs propose to charter a design team to close on a single = proposal, by next meeting. > =E2=80=A2 Might build on one of the existing drafts, might be a = new draft, up to the design team. > =E2=80=A2 Emphasis on pragmatism, OK to limit applicability (for = example, to a single administrative domain).=20 > =E2=80=A2 Questions? Comments? Volunteers? > =E2=80=94 >=20 > We are in the process of forming the team and hope to announce it = soon. We have many good volunteers already but if you didn=E2=80=99t = know and do want to volunteer, please contact Sue and me.=20 >=20 > Note that the design team will not make any binding decisions: as with = all WG work, the WG has the final word, so any output of the DT will = serve as input to the WG as a whole. (So even if you aren=E2=80=99t part = of the DT, that doesn=E2=80=99t mean you won=E2=80=99t have a chance to = be part of the process.) >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > =E2=80=94John > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr From nobody Thu Dec 5 14:20:42 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 503EE1200EF for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 14:20:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5OW45Yw2JKej for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 14:20:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x829.google.com (mail-qt1-x829.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::829]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2FFD4120168 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 14:20:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x829.google.com with SMTP id k11so5139624qtm.3 for ; Thu, 05 Dec 2019 14:20:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=pvCRhpdK2wxV4aK7d1UsdI7LeGWppu/7m0XdT4RGedA=; b=Sl98JHtNvgYJxusPWcQWs3dmoVp5oDGOlljC42dTsvjcccWpA5f/SkGdfdQTAf0VQ4 r9/9JX7ph/4ZgHvCLcMIgrJTkYPlqEuV6Oe3iqs3ZpqTAN0+pOqVOHS/RIgN9dzNeq75 nyyDOJke08yIMiUBXWSJ/QQF2Y3s3KD3b3eIh+lYmzQ/HyzOksb7322tPWgsGgdiCYaC SyZDJUxx/nz1TKsr6e3hm3VyDm3znNLBSdxrFywSG2kuqSmvTGbUx/KhYJpaczqZnQpA OpvXQ4vv9ogtmti9+8R5DqHZOcoS6OTpkmONt+eaHD779+NJdWYESV57ULG5+R0jyF0F Gz0A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pvCRhpdK2wxV4aK7d1UsdI7LeGWppu/7m0XdT4RGedA=; b=qFG8Arr2WZ/Rj5+ZyWkGvNa1XCyQvNZtC87DTG/Rh26Jvk9lMvYL+Udot8ojzTjNNp SQ9WtSv2ivYcWFy4IF2JkbNz5ctUBtiYIh3elmXRbdu6EZRHlnMSZxBoYkn5LMGm9nOR 2BoJrdij9A4RmZATPeCoGB60M1XS5RSLqT3CmRQUvEEWkyis6oPx7YGaqsqv/ulqUwnZ gdIxyqnbSQGa41wuSxVquTFm+xE3O+KftjteOri0I0qtfRdeRDIL9rhvV9aExQpVnL8c jCAO2lC008AFsO+18rhlurKwe0BisAqFYMso4ED+2iNRi1ujddYthFaEpN9NEeYoogZr iX4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXlkZTodU9EUYdVcWMNuxs3jzcJXoyWmXFKQHMTn6MzzkVuIl9/ NdRQAHZ/hip6FlMvvpLCKjyVK0/b0m/BYcSyKpW3TEyYvSpW9A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzHk1hDMUdW3SZ5Ij/MVPqYYixLOYkn4CvWiKorElVbmxr2Bu2r++OE0LTnyTPfJuQUq/giGBOiZsvg4AcEy6s= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:37d0:: with SMTP id e16mr9911055qtc.311.1575584438135; Thu, 05 Dec 2019 14:20:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 23:20:30 +0100 Message-ID: To: John Scudder Cc: idr wg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bfc7720598fc56f9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP autodiscovery design team X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2019 22:20:41 -0000 --000000000000bfc7720598fc56f9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, > We are in the process of forming the team and hope to announce it soon. We have many good > volunteers already but if you didn=E2=80=99t know and do want to voluntee= r, please contact Sue and me. If such design team for unscoped "BGP autodiscovery" work gets formed please add my name to the volunteer list. Thank you, Robert On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 8:33 PM John Scudder wrote: > Hi All, > > I realized this morning that although we announced in the last meeting > that we=E2=80=99re forming this design team, we never announced it on the= list. > This is to correct that mistake. Here=E2=80=99s the text of the slide we = presented > at the meeting ( > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/materials/slides-106-idr-sessa-a= uto-discovery-design-team-chairs-00 > ): > > --- > Autodiscovery > > =E2=80=A2 Clear interest in WG to work on this topic. > =E2=80=A2 No clear consensus on a specific approach. > =E2=80=A2 Proposals (four of them) progressively closer semantically, see= ms likely > convergence can happen. > =E2=80=A2 But, important differences remain. > =E2=80=A2 At least: transport (L2, L3), liveness, security, maybe= multihop. > =E2=80=A2 Chairs propose to charter a design team to close on a single pr= oposal, > by next meeting. > =E2=80=A2 Might build on one of the existing drafts, might be a n= ew draft, > up to the design team. > =E2=80=A2 Emphasis on pragmatism, OK to limit applicability (for = example, > to a single administrative domain). > =E2=80=A2 Questions? Comments? Volunteers? > =E2=80=94 > > We are in the process of forming the team and hope to announce it soon. W= e > have many good volunteers already but if you didn=E2=80=99t know and do w= ant to > volunteer, please contact Sue and me. > > Note that the design team will not make any binding decisions: as with al= l > WG work, the WG has the final word, so any output of the DT will serve as > input to the WG as a whole. (So even if you aren=E2=80=99t part of the DT= , that > doesn=E2=80=99t mean you won=E2=80=99t have a chance to be part of the pr= ocess.) > > Thanks, > > =E2=80=94John > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > --000000000000bfc7720598fc56f9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John,

>=C2=A0 We are in t= he process of forming the team and hope to announce it soon. We have many g= ood=C2=A0
> volunteers already but if you didn=E2=80=99t know = and do want to volunteer, please contact Sue and me.=C2=A0=C2=A0
<= div>
If such design team for unscoped "BGP autodiscovery= " work gets formed please add my name to the volunteer list.=C2=A0

Thank you,
Robert=C2=A0


On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 8:33 PM John Scudder <jgs=3D= 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.or= g> wrote:
Hi All,

I realized this morning that although we announced in the last meeting that= we=E2=80=99re forming this design team, we never announced it on the list.= This is to correct that mistake. Here=E2=80=99s the text of the slide we p= resented at the meeting (https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/= materials/slides-106-idr-sessa-auto-discovery-design-team-chairs-00):
---
Autodiscovery

=E2=80=A2 Clear interest in WG to work on this topic.
=E2=80=A2 No clear consensus on a specific approach.
=E2=80=A2 Proposals (four of them) progressively closer semantically, seems= likely convergence can happen.
=E2=80=A2 But, important differences remain.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 At least: transport (L2, L3), livenes= s, security, maybe multihop.
=E2=80=A2 Chairs propose to charter a design team to close on a single prop= osal, by next meeting.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 Might build on one of the existing dr= afts, might be a new draft, up to the design team.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=A2 Emphasis on pragmatism, OK to limit a= pplicability (for example, to a single administrative domain).
=E2=80=A2 Questions? Comments? Volunteers?
=E2=80=94

We are in the process of forming the team and hope to announce it soon. We = have many good volunteers already but if you didn=E2=80=99t know and do wan= t to volunteer, please contact Sue and me.

Note that the design team will not make any binding decisions: as with all = WG work, the WG has the final word, so any output of the DT will serve as i= nput to the WG as a whole. (So even if you aren=E2=80=99t part of the DT, t= hat doesn=E2=80=99t mean you won=E2=80=99t have a chance to be part of the = process.)

Thanks,

=E2=80=94John
_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
--000000000000bfc7720598fc56f9-- From nobody Thu Dec 5 14:43:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC67F1201A3 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 14:43:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UQo2N4qDGyee for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 14:43:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B1C9120168 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 14:43:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iczq8-0003ib-4W; Thu, 05 Dec 2019 22:43:16 +0000 Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2019 14:43:15 -0800 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: "UTTARO, JAMES" Cc: idr wg In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/26.2 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP autodiscovery design team X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2019 22:43:20 -0000 > I agree with Roberts=A2 point. Prior to crafting or selecting a draft as > the basis for a proposal the design team should clearly articulate the > scope, use cases and requirements that need to be addressed. IMO > stating that in an informational RFC is a good way to ensure that all > stakeholders are in agreement as to what the eventual > specification/draft addresses, and as important does not address. while i am tempted to agree with you, i see it from a different vector. imiho, if we agreed to constrain solutions to the absolute minimal mechanism, we might be able to cover a significant subset of clos, ibgp, inter-provider, and ixp. if we do not constrain to the minimial mechanism, we will make a complex and disgusting mess of boiling the ocean on {pick any one of the above}. i think it was tony hoare who said something such as there are two kinds of standards, - the intersection of what everybody *must* have - the union of what everybody thinks they could want randy From nobody Thu Dec 5 14:55:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD0B120168 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 14:55:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=instituut-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OntyKPk6Vr3L for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 14:55:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x335.google.com (mail-ot1-x335.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::335]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B786B1200EF for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 14:55:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x335.google.com with SMTP id i15so4145140oto.7 for ; Thu, 05 Dec 2019 14:55:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=instituut-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=uB3LZ+HzjhwqIzHqBFL8s1yM7EzAdqbcfLJSorrdz/Q=; b=dpXXPFV7Fs716s7XdLpPW9m+zh9FCDunq3lDi8dojF082cvxY2kcgwhOYlu8IaVDgx xLs0oIXW6x45ef8fI60EEjIlXZDpuTChpNC6By7XcfRcLBfMFzq15r1N0mXaxINE7LkX cCSaDgHJznr2OfH+46cZbkvcYnhyG6lRDAPSzYJLI5Vg6lYxLybfrpVXbrAld1lNLvwO Ei9w2spE/3p+4vXeQbT2dilHsXZjmhCPRvGGRs958wae9AVV0Wn/AiIygKP9CIPbl18C nivU2I4D6WJJAaW+EYNRov6d38tIQ9Ap30V3YbinPaduJt+puHM3rFcjKFNz6lP9Zt9n LuoQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uB3LZ+HzjhwqIzHqBFL8s1yM7EzAdqbcfLJSorrdz/Q=; b=Z6bs30l3Pry0X7JDXT/XMVLutubWRXGmKDMIpZVvYHuGdJE4Dqgy6oHXLzJv8p/Hju XlOqGA5wEg5L9p9KB2dBryTwOHawAzVUIgSzhBNnC9GI9c7c1ENlBq/eMI7Gll71hRzU RRtGWpHbaykV9dqxWfvQ3ClgUEED3DCqwGzXy9Wek3wdeAk4T/Gl1v+k447pySxm47aq KQeEv16f6QPJE/f27kzh7JBAVEJx008M/lVS7dzzo3sPNed87/Oj08SL+DHinm7neppq pYk1BifMqnJdwTa5CNggoaeKoiGdrTeWbcgb/oSYINL7EbRRz7e/SSoWqCJJcbqA2ZZA 76/w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXzBucKGyDGXprBxRpf2MpfwvfUDc9o+aJk1Dkd4JXd8/AQuEL3 dqPqXSj9BSGZpGLoNcmLOarBPC+oRcvvTtJ5jyPC/w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwaoVvKlwi+0wuG3OyUkB25SbcussvxUjwNKNf04ivjTIJk8af8SN1cf0m7p3Ycp0CEIBFm8naFgfgrwUhQQ+w= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:574:: with SMTP id f20mr8357796otc.71.1575586511968; Thu, 05 Dec 2019 14:55:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Job Snijders Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 23:55:00 +0100 Message-ID: To: Randy Bush Cc: "UTTARO, JAMES" , idr wg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005be5740598fcd282" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP autodiscovery design team X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2019 22:55:16 -0000 --0000000000005be5740598fcd282 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 23:43 Randy Bush wrote: > > I agree with Roberts=E2=80=99 point. Prior to crafting or selecting a d= raft as > > the basis for a proposal the design team should clearly articulate the > > scope, use cases and requirements that need to be addressed. IMO > > stating that in an informational RFC is a good way to ensure that all > > stakeholders are in agreement as to what the eventual > > specification/draft addresses, and as important does not address. > > while i am tempted to agree with you, i see it from a different vector. > > imiho, if we agreed to constrain solutions to the absolute minimal > mechanism, we might be able to cover a significant subset of clos, ibgp, > inter-provider, and ixp. > > if we do not constrain to the minimial mechanism, we will make a complex > and disgusting mess of boiling the ocean on {pick any one of the above}. > > i think it was tony hoare who said something such as > > there are two kinds of standards, > - the intersection of what everybody *must* have I would be interested to help achieve exactly the above. Hopefully we can manage that in a way that doesn=E2=80=99t harm internet ro= uting from a security perspective. :-) Kind regards, Job > --0000000000005be5740598fcd282 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 23:43 Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
> I agree with Roberts=E2=80=99 point. = Prior to crafting or selecting a draft as
> the basis for a proposal the design team should clearly articulate the=
> scope, use cases and requirements that need to be addressed. IMO
> stating that in an informational RFC is a good way to ensure that all<= br> > stakeholders are in agreement as to what the eventual
> specification/draft addresses, and as important does not address.

while i am tempted to agree with you, i see it from a different vector.

imiho, if we agreed to constrain solutions to the absolute minimal
mechanism, we might be able to cover a significant subset of clos, ibgp, inter-provider, and ixp.

if we do not constrain to the minimial mechanism, we will make a complex and disgusting mess of boiling the ocean on {pick any one of the above}.
i think it was tony hoare who said something such as

=C2=A0 =C2=A0there are two kinds of standards,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- the intersection of what everybody *must* have

I would be interested t= o help achieve exactly the above.

Hopefully we can manage that in a way that doesn=E2=80=99t harm i= nternet routing from a security perspective. :-)
Kind regards,

Job
<= /div> --0000000000005be5740598fcd282-- From nobody Thu Dec 5 15:25:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58F1112020A for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 15:25:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dWKyzLOTXHUq for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 15:25:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x82d.google.com (mail-qt1-x82d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 683411201A3 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 15:25:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x82d.google.com with SMTP id 38so5225580qtb.13 for ; Thu, 05 Dec 2019 15:25:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rJTc4eXNI7faxVuxwY9kyqUwJzsxLHeExUTxt4HGjzA=; b=LXoTvC04aJGsckkbDrJ0PCxHl0UCadiq2WWGknRGUSvaywFDCIkDQMxnmltT41HA/o WTNKtDYiqlEWElBueW7Obt+E/KdLfgEEpBHE8BJ48LXTtH7HJ1DXcki2WIlTkYfE01Wp SIqJ1zn5Lux55B6+9KrLJMVtEaJfvQGIp35HbCpsk3cA6AF9wTn9djIMfmaR4qZIY3mB ngPCng+GepsEA72IaE8g2zBkQhjvqeQLg67Cm+NXiLXCcikQ5t82V0H1rQYxPvgoe55v eI3iXLW/PjydG+n/Mkz5wttrFocapWKI40qrTL5CedpfwCYVurvLWK+87Po6cazJCuGN 1AVA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rJTc4eXNI7faxVuxwY9kyqUwJzsxLHeExUTxt4HGjzA=; b=gLaOb6yzODzn607XvYrOl4pQlKABwYe4XOEVHmBQxxIVsuCvJUkw3NeBzPGYjeIwZZ C64I09wl4tw6b3QRLdu+zg0YXG4qGMhKGfZjAyigs9uM9LPp2W/kFeFKckRrteRtfShR l0WnFliqJyGIAz+65DVVUxk7MEOTWvfOYJR42VYb8vMdiQ0OkQiJdg0nw/1E9h2V1312 gTsfPy3Jp05MCYLrwWzgWhBmg7RKf6eK59gACIhwu0vXve1IKoG+Mb89MYXsfq0tSjaM E0K/UQ+LzPWpwHytS699Zr1WtIkfhL+fXbVpgozf+/ThIq8QLBlUCjRq0dXHYe80oKex SbwA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVLx+Lust3H2snNGnDXl2yxiRMaGFEYS6pZvAWGYoEfM58bxvx4 Gmi2EGIctpsdaA0X2pB8sU4uZwaI5upAek2OixzHcA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyR3USYZvL/cii3mndDue/W/xS2YJyv0wUxaAtGScMaMoiO7KsNG7yeGuQKleKUqyPIJL32uiytRndNR2BemYA= X-Received: by 2002:aed:2b62:: with SMTP id p89mr10242823qtd.208.1575588299385; Thu, 05 Dec 2019 15:24:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2019 00:24:51 +0100 Message-ID: To: Randy Bush Cc: "UTTARO, JAMES" , idr wg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e5c46d0598fd3c25" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP autodiscovery design team X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2019 23:25:02 -0000 --000000000000e5c46d0598fd3c25 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > imiho, if we agreed to constrain solutions to the absolute minimal > mechanism, we might be able to cover a significant subset of clos, > ibgp, inter-provider, and ixp. We have a very different set of possible tools and solutions to setup BGP peering in Clos fabric as compared with BGP neighbor discovery for IBGP mesh or IXP. With that perhaps we could consider if for nothing else then for simplicity to separate those two quite orthogonal tasks. As noted for the latter we do have a pretty mature candidate solution on the table. For the former I think there is a lot of experience we could leverage from IGPs. I am not aware that there is a requirement to automate Inter-provider peering in any dimension. Many thx. Robert. On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 11:43 PM Randy Bush wrote: > > I agree with Roberts=E2=80=99 point. Prior to crafting or selecting a d= raft as > > the basis for a proposal the design team should clearly articulate the > > scope, use cases and requirements that need to be addressed. IMO > > stating that in an informational RFC is a good way to ensure that all > > stakeholders are in agreement as to what the eventual > > specification/draft addresses, and as important does not address. > > while i am tempted to agree with you, i see it from a different vector. > > imiho, if we agreed to constrain solutions to the absolute minimal > mechanism, we might be able to cover a significant subset of clos, ibgp, > inter-provider, and ixp. > > if we do not constrain to the minimial mechanism, we will make a complex > and disgusting mess of boiling the ocean on {pick any one of the above}. > > i think it was tony hoare who said something such as > > there are two kinds of standards, > - the intersection of what everybody *must* have > - the union of what everybody thinks they could want > > randy > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > --000000000000e5c46d0598fd3c25 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> imiho, if we agreed to constrain solut= ions to the absolute minimal
>=C2=A0mechanism, we might be able to c= over a significant subset of clos,=C2=A0
> ibgp, inter-provide= r, and ixp.=C2=A0=C2=A0

We have a very differe= nt set of possible tools and solutions to setup BGP peering in Clos fabric = as compared with BGP neighbor discovery for IBGP mesh or IXP.=C2=A0

With that perhaps we could consider if for nothing else t= hen for simplicity to separate those two quite orthogonal tasks.=C2=A0

As noted for the latter we do have a pretty mature can= didate solution on the table. For the former I think there is a lot of expe= rience=C2=A0we could leverage=C2=A0from IGPs.=C2=A0

I am not aware that there is a requirement=C2=A0to automate Inter-pro= vider=C2=A0peering in any dimension.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

<= div>Many thx.
Robert.


On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at = 11:43 PM Randy Bush <randy@psg.com&= gt; wrote:
> = I agree with Roberts=E2=80=99 point. Prior to crafting or selecting a draft= as
> the basis for a proposal the design team should clearly articulate the=
> scope, use cases and requirements that need to be addressed. IMO
> stating that in an informational RFC is a good way to ensure that all<= br> > stakeholders are in agreement as to what the eventual
> specification/draft addresses, and as important does not address.

while i am tempted to agree with you, i see it from a different vector.

imiho, if we agreed to constrain solutions to the absolute minimal
mechanism, we might be able to cover a significant subset of clos, ibgp, inter-provider, and ixp.

if we do not constrain to the minimial mechanism, we will make a complex and disgusting mess of boiling the ocean on {pick any one of the above}.
i think it was tony hoare who said something such as

=C2=A0 =C2=A0there are two kinds of standards,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- the intersection of what everybody *must* have
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- the union of what everybody thinks they could want
randy

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
--000000000000e5c46d0598fd3c25-- From nobody Thu Dec 5 18:11:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD72312004C for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 18:11:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G-kcqfZE6GeD for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 18:11:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x82a.google.com (mail-qt1-x82a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D94AC120018 for ; Thu, 5 Dec 2019 18:11:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x82a.google.com with SMTP id q8so5616857qtr.10 for ; Thu, 05 Dec 2019 18:11:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=RyfLZFEofwW49ltiAEek6n43uyJt2189ixfx5nM/QzE=; b=Y3sebn0kt4Q0g4l9w2Y1R/bg5+3ZgFVCZwFFol6Zr17dYU1Zx0fiQXZtomiPj+tk48 L+Hwlui2VuOIxONid8LUyKXARr7JFrwW6+VNSojgO7iz7oOMJhUwkkxFcW7YSvbR1CR2 SoMu1LYp61d/ixc1TPgRoagsQ/iB9IeZlVlgGM1eO4VOCseZ43cpRoaa/st7FWdaRU2p lZIfMZNdtKbziHhiA/qFd5bTcVR1Spo/eayq2pxToKAxX2SXlsMUpcGmZfCAV+r8OvLy fRBHpjFjXGZciypCy5sONnbKwuhoLtz+04Y45nagvvPV7uBxxJ6W2XFAMJYf6MvT8Evm 1KDA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=RyfLZFEofwW49ltiAEek6n43uyJt2189ixfx5nM/QzE=; b=g2km3217cyg3ixHQ+1tCUHIzarXjpl23rXZoeDOX36qzOnA8N8r70DfTx1XUSVqehq dM5gnD6n4XY7TtdJyTguW8gP8Yt7O3VwwrOADRCOcvnVRLf6JJbi4BSBBp6HqdA+vGN5 HcWPz94Jmt6Q7gCUUi5k2Gzj4hnoDA3MCJqLIB+bAMME8g+CB/k2C7Ll2f8BPr2RZqfH LD/HLjYox5rF2w7WhzwgDi9pubIr04VqEl3RqmvEOdMN7nKIUVcAJCnXtctax0To1DLI +6dzUplzSOuq4yI+rMkABzaDk++m+O/OSLvE+1WkHsmjT9tsj6BlHj7V9N6szr2GFqFC snGA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXVIOii3mcVZu6laegbOXn4q7EmIgzjkWvQY9YRKI7dFmPs51ke DIY9e+IgGc8/pSBXPQRX/Sus/9o5uAy4WLvbTHn/bFJh X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw+5fzwwHHjmcf7C9t/vx7sOCPCSAM+yHUl2jAUDY5ESflq5blSBc6kUGxwH43JiuzDaW9phpb9L1/B26m0A5Q= X-Received: by 2002:aed:37c6:: with SMTP id j64mr10871780qtb.364.1575598272515; Thu, 05 Dec 2019 18:11:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2D145A2C-2498-413B-A805-79E4DF8876FE@pfrc.org> In-Reply-To: <2D145A2C-2498-413B-A805-79E4DF8876FE@pfrc.org> From: Warren Kumari Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 21:11:01 -0500 Message-ID: To: Jeffrey Haas Cc: John Scudder , idr wg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000057a6310598ff8f42" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] BGP autodiscovery design team X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2019 02:11:16 -0000 --00000000000057a6310598ff8f42 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 5:15 PM Jeffrey Haas wrote: > Publicly echoing my private responses, I'm willing to be on the design > team. > As am I (if the chairs will have me!) W > -- Jeff > > > On Dec 4, 2019, at 2:33 PM, John Scudder 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > > > I realized this morning that although we announced in the last meeting > that we=E2=80=99re forming this design team, we never announced it on the= list. > This is to correct that mistake. Here=E2=80=99s the text of the slide we = presented > at the meeting ( > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/materials/slides-106-idr-sessa-a= uto-discovery-design-team-chairs-00 > ): > > > > --- > > Autodiscovery > > > > =E2=80=A2 Clear interest in WG to work on this topic. > > =E2=80=A2 No clear consensus on a specific approach. > > =E2=80=A2 Proposals (four of them) progressively closer semantically, s= eems > likely convergence can happen. > > =E2=80=A2 But, important differences remain. > > =E2=80=A2 At least: transport (L2, L3), liveness, security, maybe= multihop. > > =E2=80=A2 Chairs propose to charter a design team to close on a single = proposal, > by next meeting. > > =E2=80=A2 Might build on one of the existing drafts, might be a n= ew draft, > up to the design team. > > =E2=80=A2 Emphasis on pragmatism, OK to limit applicability (for = example, > to a single administrative domain). > > =E2=80=A2 Questions? Comments? Volunteers? > > =E2=80=94 > > > > We are in the process of forming the team and hope to announce it soon. > We have many good volunteers already but if you didn=E2=80=99t know and d= o want to > volunteer, please contact Sue and me. > > > > Note that the design team will not make any binding decisions: as with > all WG work, the WG has the final word, so any output of the DT will serv= e > as input to the WG as a whole. (So even if you aren=E2=80=99t part of the= DT, that > doesn=E2=80=99t mean you won=E2=80=99t have a chance to be part of the pr= ocess.) > > > > Thanks, > > > > =E2=80=94John > > _______________________________________________ > > Idr mailing list > > Idr@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > --=20 I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf --00000000000057a6310598ff8f42 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 5:15 PM Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:
Publicly echoing my private responses, I'm willing to= be on the design team.

As am I (if the = chairs will have me!)

W<= /div>



-- Jeff

> On Dec 4, 2019, at 2:33 PM, John Scudder <jgs=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org= > wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I realized this morning that although we announced in the last meeting= that we=E2=80=99re forming this design team, we never announced it on the = list. This is to correct that mistake. Here=E2=80=99s the text of the slide= we presented at the meeting (https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/= 106/materials/slides-106-idr-sessa-auto-discovery-design-team-chairs-00= ):
>
> ---
> Autodiscovery
>
> =E2=80=A2 Clear interest in WG to work on this topic.
> =E2=80=A2 No clear consensus on a specific approach.
> =E2=80=A2 Proposals (four of them) progressively closer semantically, = seems likely convergence can happen.
> =E2=80=A2 But, important differences remain.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2 At least: transport (L2, L3), live= ness, security, maybe multihop.
> =E2=80=A2 Chairs propose to charter a design team to close on a single= proposal, by next meeting.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2 Might build on one of the existing= drafts, might be a new draft, up to the design team.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2 Emphasis on pragmatism, OK to limi= t applicability (for example, to a single administrative domain).
> =E2=80=A2 Questions? Comments? Volunteers?
> =E2=80=94
>
> We are in the process of forming the team and hope to announce it soon= . We have many good volunteers already but if you didn=E2=80=99t know and d= o want to volunteer, please contact Sue and me.
>
> Note that the design team will not make any binding decisions: as with= all WG work, the WG has the final word, so any output of the DT will serve= as input to the WG as a whole. (So even if you aren=E2=80=99t part of the = DT, that doesn=E2=80=99t mean you won=E2=80=99t have a chance to be part of= the process.)
>
> Thanks,
>
> =E2=80=94John
> _______________________________________________
> Idr mailing list
> Idr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr

_______________________________________________
Idr mailing list
Idr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr
--
I don't think the execution is relev= ant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place.
This is like pu= tting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having ch= osen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants.
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0---maf
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Fri, 6 Dec 2019 14:34:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9LY_ywVVvBaj; Fri, 6 Dec 2019 14:34:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31A521209CB; Fri, 6 Dec 2019 14:34:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 15240F40737; Fri, 6 Dec 2019 14:34:43 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org X-PHP-Originating-Script: 1005:ams_util_lib.php From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, drafts-update-ref@iana.org, idr@ietf.org Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20191206223443.15240F40737@rfc-editor.org> Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2019 14:34:43 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] =?utf-8?q?RFC_8669_on_Segment_Routing_Prefix_Segment_Ident?= =?utf-8?q?ifier_Extensions_for_BGP?= X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2019 22:34:53 -0000 A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 8669 Title: Segment Routing Prefix Segment Identifier Extensions for BGP Author: S. Previdi, C. Filsfils, A. Lindem, Ed., A. Sreekantiah, H. Gredler Status: Standards Track Stream: IETF Date: December 2019 Mailbox: stefano@previdi.net, cfilsfils@cisco.com, acee@cisco.com, arjunhrs@gmail.com, hannes@rtbrick.com Pages: 15 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag: draft-ietf-idr-bgp-prefix-sid-27.txt URL: https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8669 DOI: 10.17487/RFC8669 Segment Routing (SR) leverages the source-routing paradigm. A node steers a packet through an ordered list of instructions called "segments". A segment can represent any instruction, topological or service based. The ingress node prepends an SR header to a packet containing a set of segment identifiers (SIDs). Each SID represents a topological or service-based instruction. Per-flow state is maintained only on the ingress node of the SR domain. An "SR domain" is defined as a single administrative domain for global SID assignment. This document defines an optional, transitive BGP attribute for announcing information about BGP Prefix Segment Identifiers (BGP Prefix-SIDs) and the specification for SR-MPLS SIDs. This document is a product of the Inter-Domain Routing Working Group of the IETF. This is now a Proposed Standard. STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet Standards Track protocol for the Internet community, and requests discussion and suggestions for improvements. Please refer to the current edition of the Official Internet Protocol Standards (https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards) for the standardization state and status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists. To subscribe or unsubscribe, see https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce https://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-dist For searching the RFC series, see https://www.rfc-editor.org/search For downloading RFCs, see https://www.rfc-editor.org/retrieve/bulk Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. The RFC Editor Team Association Management Solutions, LLC From nobody Tue Dec 10 14:17:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietf.org Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A79B71200D7; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 14:17:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Yingzhen Qu via Datatracker To: Cc: idr@ietf.org, draft-ietf-idr-bgp-model.all@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.113.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Yingzhen Qu Message-ID: <157601625762.9967.17207864316434700150@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 14:17:37 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] Rtgdir early review of draft-ietf-idr-bgp-model-07 X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 22:17:38 -0000 Reviewer: Yingzhen Qu Review result: Has Issues Hello, I have been selected to do a routing directorate “early” review of this draft. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-bgp-model/ The routing directorate will, on request from the working group chair, perform an “early” review of a draft before it is submitted for publication to the IESG. The early review can be performed at any time during the draft’s lifetime as a working group document. The purpose of the early review depends on the stage that the document has reached. As this document is in working group last call, my focus for the review was to determine whether the document is ready to be published. Please consider my comments along with the other working group last call comments. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please see http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir Document: draft-ietf-idr-bgp-model-07 Reviewer: Yingzhen Qu Review Date: 10 December 2019 Intended Status: Standards Track Summary Thank you for writing this document. It is a critical piece for IETF YANG support in general. This document is very well written. I think that it is almost ready to be published, but there are a few points below that I would like to discuss for clarification. I also spotted a few nits that should be fixed at some point before publication. Comments and Questions 1) about RIB This model defines BGP RIB, which augments RFC 8349. There are a few places it says just RIB instead of BGP RIB, and I’d suggest making it clear to be BGP RIB. For example: In Abstract: This document defines a YANG data model for configuring and managing BGP, including protocol, policy, and operational aspects, such as RIB, based on data center, carrier and content provider operational requirements. Section 1.1: o RIB contents. 2) About VRF support This question has been asked during WG session when the draft was presented. VRF support is through Network Instance model (RFC8529), however there is issue when trying to map a VRF to one of the several BGP instances. Example configuration is shown below: RP/0/RSP0/CPU0:ASR9001_RT21(config-bgp-vrf-af)#do show running-config  router bgp Tue Nov 19 10:02:04.130 UTC router bgp 100 instance a1 bgp router-id 12.12.12.12 address-family vpnv4 unicast ! neighbor 121.1.1.1   remote-as 100   address-family vpnv4 unicast   ! ! vrf vrf-a1 <— it needs some sort of binding information to relate this VRF to BGP instance a1. In this case, the key point is there are one than one BGP default instances.   rd auto   address-family ipv4 unicast    redistribute static   ! ! ! router bgp 200 instance a2 bgp router-id 13.1.1.1 address-family vpnv4 unicast ! address-family ipv6 unicast ! address-family l2vpn evpn ! neighbor 122.1.1.1   remote-as 100   address-family vpnv4 unicast   !   address-family l2vpn evpn   ! ! vrf a3   rd 13.1.1.1:2   address-family ipv4 unicast   ! ! vrf vrf-a2   rd 13.1.1.1:1   address-family ipv4 unicast    redistribute connected   ! ! ! router bgp 100 bgp router-id 1.1.11.1 address-family ipv4 unicast ! address-family vpnv4 unicast ! address-family l2vpn vpls-vpws ! Nits Overall the document is very well written and read well. Only a couple of nits: Section 3    The BGP model augments the Routing Management model A YANG Data Model    for Routing Management [RFC8349] which defines the notion of routing,    routing protocols, It seems that this long sentence could use a couple “,”. Section 4:    These are the subtrees and data nodes    and their sensitivity/vulnerability: There are three paragraphs ending with this sentence, meant for writeable, read only and RPC operations data nodes, but the detailed nodes are missing. From nobody Tue Dec 10 15:03:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C93EB1200F5 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 15:03:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lrx0CFNL0GwF for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 15:03:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x430.google.com (mail-pf1-x430.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::430]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2135120059 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 15:03:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x430.google.com with SMTP id 2so609106pfg.12 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 15:03:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:to; bh=7SMLPjdgtaZcTVqngq4B1oxgoWlU2gNaCK1ELYnrQNE=; b=FfSebYyajNQ53MS/EvvtcWJOdAyQm3mBmBUVgF5pS7OiIExyDNd1ZvoFCKX3qCLF6p AiQr7O15u+HwYGhJHIetq/0p7mWabI8qNGRcaPygMl8hA+KKaLKSwbvqmPHJ2oCaLKT5 pYmBqgeeIyRv8YBhazx9UQ20nHHgD4O/oPKia65cGrXdPvX981bi31zvZRfm2NVZgAef GAcjDtaer5mKStwx4y8NtisI5y7vTYUK2a1YEK6uulekkTWt59Mmuyx9HOlzY+JDJMsJ Rh5JLQ00RWXvBmXVmnLpKeRUDhDBnHHdKNLk72J3Zb2Tm4rhAClimBTIdGPoF2BAiQU3 bCTA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:to; bh=7SMLPjdgtaZcTVqngq4B1oxgoWlU2gNaCK1ELYnrQNE=; b=WL6U2uI5bf7CMjEo8i8D47NpZOkHAX2I7lhxoTY3oziYT4MmhQoaaxuMeAJEe1dqr8 wydXGIzrqcm3pOGVtb8WmCo3HbO8s4yXLmL8C7avg5pMtnSbCMDBqTaoL/ASFP3I0Zrs O55qOMQGAJpCM8uRu9jNfclcLzEeDX5lLucj3K4JjihrlG9GcrGwkpjEtPWyUnX0Ug1w kdHEpODE0M3rEfqZ2M86WNtycW9+in0Umgl4sgljuGAT8QaeprGyZUdMeSxsy62AhmUn Db2/U10M0yf1eHndTrw93sr3iphsyA0WNtoBb9Q9gEvV7MKp0Wvhrq2f3yHb4/dJCsXR 5qSw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWnd2aQVfl8N/EIlCAupTlOlSSJerwM6EW5NRisBiguDvLNnA83 JrLGuA187HLxHcbJmZdZ0ENRUDzC X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxdqmoEaCyBR5HNnUor74ZUTrJ0PpE3y2UoLFbb/7EXS2kYptE3E5CRpk2AceDbTPT4LEOEkw== X-Received: by 2002:a65:590f:: with SMTP id f15mr555268pgu.381.1576018995244; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 15:03:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.33.123.64] ([66.170.99.1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x4sm96572pfx.68.2019.12.10.15.03.14 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 10 Dec 2019 15:03:14 -0800 (PST) From: Mahesh Jethanandani Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1389F78C-BDA4-46B1-96E3-4109BF001BF7" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 15:03:13 -0800 To: idr@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] How is AS path length calculated? Issue#35 X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 23:03:19 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1389F78C-BDA4-46B1-96E3-4109BF001BF7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This, and series of follow-up e-mail, one each for issues discussed in = IETF 106, will summarize the issues discussed there, w.r.t. to the BGP = YANG model for Service Provider Network = . I will also = suggest a solution. Unless an objection is heard, the suggested solution = will be deemed appropriate to implement in the YANG model. The issue is = also documented here = , in case you = want to comment it there. On the question of how is AS path length calculated, we proposed that = calculated AS_PATH length for route SHALL follow RFC 4271 rules. It will = let the user see the number that serves as input to BGP route selection.=20= Unless an objection is received, that is what will be documented in the = model. Thanks. Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com --Apple-Mail=_1389F78C-BDA4-46B1-96E3-4109BF001BF7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii This,= and series of follow-up e-mail, one each for issues discussed in IETF = 106, will summarize the issues discussed there, w.r.t. to the BGP YANG model for Service Provider Network. I will also = suggest a solution. Unless an objection is heard, the suggested solution = will be deemed appropriate to implement in the YANG model. The issue is = also documented here, in case you want to comment it there.

On the question of how = is AS path length calculated, we proposed that calculated AS_PATH length = for route SHALL follow RFC 4271 rules. It will let the user see the = number that serves as input to BGP route selection. 

Unless an objection is = received, that is what will be documented in the model.

Thanks.

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com



= --Apple-Mail=_1389F78C-BDA4-46B1-96E3-4109BF001BF7-- From nobody Tue Dec 10 16:34:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8D9E1200F6 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 16:34:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RqE6J53if2QW for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 16:34:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x42c.google.com (mail-pf1-x42c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5702312008C for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 16:34:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x42c.google.com with SMTP id 4so824917pfz.9 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 16:34:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:message-id:date :to; bh=w954cbvLQ6v01dV4NYxNrhsLYgMHXPovI9H6pE792FU=; b=dJs4mRuX5s8tFLfZOgOfnyBYfW2O1h8hEQH9g4mhvit6w8TmVAlD96Brfv0RMwQZGk yJEskPSwLa0z+ycNWHm8WHdAA8FyW0ltm7I0kz7kwdOhucc9zsWBO2ehuJKNOzx7MKBW iPirUmnD22+k/lVNqV6NRj4eU5O9IWj7o7PK7N1nSAK3wSVelNJvQzJmm0ZSd4uVtEnW 64MzUXhYPlY1S+YDC2E/omWDrDV+rcPvEBmXw0U925ukdEPcZSlRRfNanlVSbAsQURcF HPqyCEd8uRv5pxG6rVsd3fPSQ8ADI0RMyG/hiXFvvwWAWwiBCDj5Xe1lE4Mbjj1INZty 8iVA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:message-id:date:to; bh=w954cbvLQ6v01dV4NYxNrhsLYgMHXPovI9H6pE792FU=; b=sOqXfTbaYyQw3IRJO7uRBk/mAm7I7kQpdt0H/wJ3ilEbWUEjVxQuWfudPu5QobjUaX yeLsTMM+ZMoOojIbtn+y+XudApICww21eFurk5R0yAdZz4O9PLInpVoLTrLNsr1/cM/c V1AOAJOaUZYVeFsNpSJm+8nB0IhkKXKWc1aFEcnudrN/0oyHtUK2wz9B4zRQlMoMwatq EBAT1Qbl2X3WaEzWEzrMv6w6WE4ox8gLRCqdL0JS9HuGoNPeltAPbcO63T0HNbjWwGys 3/Oiz+vSPazQ6iC/bjtQNKWt3d3Eq4jiVl2jrfjs56wZdNWkNgDsRcEjcyWkWMP5SfpT P0bw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVrZCOogM+aOg+hensFC84AiqsK///5EgDopooPtxjjtnSw+sfT GEj8VJYdNZ9xzbLJTovSLWvhQo15 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxK47aFp+/eay6rnkxCHMCNuHj7X4vWejF2IN4Nnkr3H7xkiwoPdnUcSh99kGmNJs6O247VOw== X-Received: by 2002:a63:e545:: with SMTP id z5mr966256pgj.209.1576024473583; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 16:34:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.33.123.64] ([66.170.99.1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l21sm136819pjq.23.2019.12.10.16.34.32 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 10 Dec 2019 16:34:32 -0800 (PST) From: Mahesh Jethanandani Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 16:34:31 -0800 To: idr@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] Securing BGP sessions (Issue#41) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 00:34:36 -0000 This is the second thread in the list of issues that were discussed in = IETF 106 w.r.t. to BGP YANG model. This particular thread is to discuss = the issue of defining how BGP sessions are going to be secured. As stated in Singapore, the model is being defined to secure BGP = sessions using=20 - TCP AO - TCP MD5 - IPSec In case there was a question of why MD5, it is because there are = existing implementations that are choosing to stay with MD5, regardless = of the issues that have been raised about MD5. The model therefore has = to support such implementations. The model will use the ietf-key-chain model=E2=80=99s (RFC 8177) = key-chain-ref to refer to an instance of the key chain. By doing that it = will make use of the key rollover capability defined in that model, and = for static key configuration by setting the end time to infinite in the = key chain. The BGP model will leave the case of IPSec as TBD for now, = and fill it when/if the IPSec YANG model is defined. Questions/Concerns? Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com From nobody Tue Dec 10 16:50:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 452041200F6 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 16:50:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sQlra6DfBtNq for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 16:50:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x533.google.com (mail-pg1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4CC112008C for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 16:50:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x533.google.com with SMTP id r11so9879105pgf.1 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 16:50:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version; bh=7LhFtwU/DW13merEPRGHETe/94687qYpoD+DRNphTfE=; b=YFFx5CT1lYLRaCHN+V7CS/SM1QhAcJ3BCXtAWJIGVwXh0Li+sle6y4r23d94capQJ7 eXyn9szz0b3aUX1XAsk5DNgiWLt7geKcZxa/hJcGf7mzSd3HpOS7XG8h2aHa71gDarnt gUAEite6hEn0rqcMUIOt5edqep88MbOTYSJu+L2boDMeMCLve4y/YiPEQqXRp7+FwdXa gLmgNlCIv7gDbjkUJL+reI2u1sJIA6cy6f8SjKFyTn/kUKyrB4Jyg2B4hTSiJySZfrWN ZqvFmBrhO84YoE/sVhcj2vfkXM9eW3jUy5REviNfiw1UjOl1qwG2bjJi05vskjDaj7+S +Djg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version; bh=7LhFtwU/DW13merEPRGHETe/94687qYpoD+DRNphTfE=; b=j0EUAG6KpzMCEzgVGafThDDxFXh13xAiTDW5TYx8Q5pO2Qyfk0qfOBgV9SSuBoO9cC KUsPRaGdhuXril8ANQPqqJexnNtkFyrVkSkmYZujP2SGfnx1p11IJUyLHBp3A42RNQwu GEbcubisria9mWpvDCp6ZhdflbvY4gkxkrywfG/glmlrfojxunUnqt1LEwcGA299mpNp BRtYH3zdBxK5u/8Xn8A3SPu+7cPAeP9mmjJI7/qnancXSwKB5Kxbb9i7/4X7k9z2oHys ZENBxccRk7t+F0v2CdtNzGeIhd4wnb7M4VVeQMYN4OW13oLpXztahSRcVGERVfxdkEyK 2AQQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVlz+HbwkCZF2apv40xVPUJThMwwMX6euPE9Tc7EW7c6+3qffue WJhJQVNmxdWOcnFWcK/w0lZgzfkF X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxv4YvlyNqT+CEt/dwLCocWRjegdHjoe/M1G9hd4sInCDi7fHyw93Qh92FLylg9YajESOJ3xQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:6fca:: with SMTP id k193mr1106495pgc.416.1576025445759; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 16:50:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.5.5.194] ([50.235.77.202]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p186sm237292pfp.56.2019.12.10.16.50.44 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 10 Dec 2019 16:50:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 16:50:36 -0800 From: Jeff Tantsura To: idr@ietf.org, Mahesh Jethanandani Message-ID: <7e96a2d8-59b2-4c38-a17d-67335a07defd@Spark> In-Reply-To: References: X-Readdle-Message-ID: 7e96a2d8-59b2-4c38-a17d-67335a07defd@Spark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="5df03d64_42963e5a_872b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Securing BGP sessions (Issue#41) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 00:50:48 -0000 --5df03d64_42963e5a_872b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline +1 I believe the below clearly represent what has been discussed in Singapor= e. Cheers, Jeff On Dec 10, 2019, 4:34 PM -0800, Mahesh Jethanandani , wrote: > This is the second thread in the list of issues that were discussed in = IET=46 106 w.r.t. to BGP YANG model. This particular thread is to discuss= the issue of defining how BGP sessions are going to be secured. > > As stated in Singapore, the model is being defined to secure BGP sessio= ns using > - TCP AO > - TCP MD5 > - IPSec > > In case there was a question of why MD5, it is because there are existi= ng implementations that are choosing to stay with MD5, regardless of the = issues that have been raised about MD5. The model therefore has to suppor= t such implementations. > > The model will use the ietf-key-chain model=E2=80=99s (R=46C 8177) key-= chain-ref to refer to an instance of the key chain. By doing that it will= make use of the key rollover capability defined in that model, and for s= tatic key configuration by setting the end time to infinite in the key ch= ain. The BGP model will leave the case of IPSec as TBD for now, and fill = it when/if the IPSec YANG model is defined. > > Questions/Concerns=3F > > Mahesh Jethanandani > mjethanandani=40gmail.com > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > Idr mailing list > Idr=40ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr --5df03d64_42963e5a_872b Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
+1

I believe the below clearly represent what has been= discussed in Singapore.

Cheers,
Jeff
On Dec 10, 2019, 4:34 PM -0800, Mah= esh Jethanandani <mjethanandani=40gmail.com>, wrote:
Th= is is the second thread in the list of issues that were discussed in IET=46= 106 w.r.t. to BGP YANG model. This particular thread is to discuss the i= ssue of defining how BGP sessions are going to be secured.

As stated in Singapore, the model is being defined to secure BGP sessions= using
- TCP AO
- TCP MD5
- IPSec

In case there was a question of why MD5, it is because there are existing= implementations that are choosing to stay with MD5, regardless of the is= sues that have been raised about MD5. The model therefore has to support = such implementations.

The model will use the ietf-key-chain model=E2=80=99s (R=46C 8177) key-ch= ain-ref to refer to an instance of the key chain. By doing that it will m= ake use of the key rollover capability defined in that model, and for sta= tic key configuration by setting the end time to infinite in the key chai= n. The BGP model will leave the case of IPSec as TBD for now, and fill it= when/if the IPSec YANG model is defined.

Questions/Concerns=3F

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani=40gmail.com



=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
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--5df03d64_42963e5a_872b-- From nobody Tue Dec 10 16:55:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 635011200F6 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 16:55:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id np7oIOaaPfp8 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 16:55:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from puck.nether.net (puck.nether.net [204.42.254.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CABB112008C for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 16:55:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.129] (c-68-40-189-22.hsd1.mi.comcast.net [68.40.189.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by puck.nether.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 29A49541304; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 19:51:20 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3601.0.10\)) From: Jared Mauch In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 19:51:18 -0500 Cc: idr@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Mahesh Jethanandani X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3601.0.10) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Securing BGP sessions (Issue#41) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 00:55:16 -0000 > On Dec 10, 2019, at 7:34 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani = wrote: >=20 > This is the second thread in the list of issues that were discussed in = IETF 106 w.r.t. to BGP YANG model. This particular thread is to discuss = the issue of defining how BGP sessions are going to be secured. >=20 > As stated in Singapore, the model is being defined to secure BGP = sessions using=20 > - TCP AO > - TCP MD5 > - IPSec >=20 > In case there was a question of why MD5, it is because there are = existing implementations that are choosing to stay with MD5, regardless = of the issues that have been raised about MD5. The model therefore has = to support such implementations. >=20 > The model will use the ietf-key-chain model=E2=80=99s (RFC 8177) = key-chain-ref to refer to an instance of the key chain. By doing that it = will make use of the key rollover capability defined in that model, and = for static key configuration by setting the end time to infinite in the = key chain. The BGP model will leave the case of IPSec as TBD for now, = and fill it when/if the IPSec YANG model is defined. >=20 > Questions/Concerns? Some comments here: I think of the above options the only two that are available are TCP-MD5 = and IPSEC. IPSEC doesn=E2=80=99t have use in the (public) internet = space, but this doesn=E2=80=99t mean people don=E2=80=99t use it = internally or elsewhere.. I just haven=E2=80=99t found any of these = people in real life. TCP-AO seems like it=E2=80=99s viable but as I mentioned in one of the = security area meetings at IETF-101, the current operational requirements = are generally stability for 180-1800 days of a BGP session (or longer). = People hate it when their BGP sessions go down and their routes go away = as a result so there=E2=80=99s a lot of steps necessary to upgrade both = sides once they support something like TCP-AO. Also operators have a hard enough time keeping the static keys = configured as they often outlast the lifetime of the engineer at the = company and most key rotation systems (eg: IPSec on routers don=E2=80=99t = often expose them in a way that survive device migrations, and key = management/export are poor or non-existent, so people only use them = internally vs externally facing =E2=80=A6) don=E2=80=99t work well or = require time sync in a way that if the fail will drop the TCP session = and BGP goes down as well. The other thing is most people just want transport integrity, not = privacy. - Jared= From nobody Tue Dec 10 17:10:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 762801201AA for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 17:10:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=lUTRYHxS; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=Navwv2b5 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hcDduiON227i for ; 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Wed, 11 Dec 2019 01:10:08 +0000 From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" To: Mahesh Jethanandani , "idr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Idr] Securing BGP sessions (Issue#41) Thread-Index: AQHVr7rd/5qGVW58hUml+zqJVoppf6ezzC0A Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 01:10:08 +0000 Message-ID: <68B00DBF-3590-4ECE-8028-301643B9E49E@cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=acee@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2001:420:c0c8:1001::3df] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: f94e2394-078d-4af3-5a36-08d77dd6dd91 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB4301: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 024847EE92 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(136003)(396003)(39860400002)(366004)(376002)(346002)(199004)(189003)(966005)(5660300002)(6512007)(110136005)(316002)(81156014)(81166006)(2616005)(186003)(8676002)(86362001)(2906002)(33656002)(6506007)(6486002)(71200400001)(8936002)(478600001)(76116006)(66446008)(91956017)(64756008)(66556008)(66946007)(36756003)(66476007); 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Tue, 10 Dec 2019 17:18:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.33.123.64] ([66.170.99.1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 3sm282033pfi.13.2019.12.10.17.18.48 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 10 Dec 2019 17:18:49 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Mahesh Jethanandani In-Reply-To: <68B00DBF-3590-4ECE-8028-301643B9E49E@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 17:18:48 -0800 Cc: "idr@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <91B63CF9-B92B-4D14-98CA-EBC865999B08@gmail.com> References: <68B00DBF-3590-4ECE-8028-301643B9E49E@cisco.com> To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Securing BGP sessions (Issue#41) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 01:18:53 -0000 Hi Acee, > On Dec 10, 2019, at 5:10 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) = wrote: >=20 > Hi Mahesh,=20 > I assume by IPsec, you mean transport mode IPsec. Yes. The assumption is that the underlying transport is secured using = IPsec, and the model provides (if needed) key parameters needed to kick = off the IKE to setup the SA in IPsec. HTH. > For IPsec protection of BGP, where are the details specified?=20 > Thanks, > Acee >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 12/10/19, 7:35 PM, "Idr on behalf of Mahesh Jethanandani" = wrote: >=20 > This is the second thread in the list of issues that were discussed = in IETF 106 w.r.t. to BGP YANG model. This particular thread is to = discuss the issue of defining how BGP sessions are going to be secured. >=20 > As stated in Singapore, the model is being defined to secure BGP = sessions using=20 > - TCP AO > - TCP MD5 > - IPSec >=20 > In case there was a question of why MD5, it is because there are = existing implementations that are choosing to stay with MD5, regardless = of the issues that have been raised about MD5. The model therefore has = to support such implementations. >=20 > The model will use the ietf-key-chain model=E2=80=99s (RFC 8177) = key-chain-ref to refer to an instance of the key chain. By doing that it = will make use of the key rollover capability defined in that model, and = for static key configuration by setting the end time to infinite in the = key chain. The BGP model will leave the case of IPSec as TBD for now, = and fill it when/if the IPSec YANG model is defined. >=20 > Questions/Concerns? >=20 > Mahesh Jethanandani > mjethanandani@gmail.com >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr >=20 >=20 Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com From nobody Tue Dec 10 17:21:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2347712008C for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 17:21:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kcEz7utJ9IKT for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 17:21:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x42e.google.com (mail-pf1-x42e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0538120059 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 17:21:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id x185so907629pfc.5 for ; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 17:21:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=3hCAC3Yikqj/dEZNUkM1yPsbYFSl3qvJt55IPf+/2Ps=; b=ZI33w59MyE8li8t10Q+wILPC2zzU/fPzzkiGZtHVsm0Tq76oKxwxR67hMLr6JlWz4N u7WgvMfyJDugeIi5E2UKvfGeYaLdCq3qt9Lg/HCf0hqZN2rjR4k1TQ4smwu64MVCpVkv us2cAZaOg+qpKvH8UgfLKp+eILKDa5d7mNIxQq1+LKgR2IXXMr1nBe3SMbCsnzORbJ9H ETFuCx8xJNpvEgMaE/U2PCn/vi08aOHcDN4TpKSA9r5GtypOU9E0hQHW0hJPK0m773zr q5LXb3sSvc5V2Bpd3+dT0rqk+L5B9iRQzu2MksxCFUtRGByjjU1dCciF2UWt7Z8bmvU6 pDTQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=3hCAC3Yikqj/dEZNUkM1yPsbYFSl3qvJt55IPf+/2Ps=; b=jAH+sX/zc/SxdXPAAPCLgM65JWvaE4G70Rn95KxgtAMyjQw4/jORuZAV2ldoFy3kKG 4RlUXEI0g4KdSO18qk2biU3c3ltjjpfgzH3ys+GzbpnUiGHFeXszwED5j6Y+1drYllHj qiF+KQqIiTiKFGwzqGBBbRvpRca5Bf926lxq5WoGPmYatJkdO5LoFxLcBqpkKbtJU1gx J7EFFr4HnIhxIXBM/Wv9DKkGUSIchcffrRcg83fDGCDdwaf9FtenNrrnWkzbTi7sDWx3 a9eOJO27y87BWjL53fo374N3qxBec9a75sm+49hoxS/3Omzw5Eki0T9Y4lpNwfvt84JT WPzA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXKAzLOei9S7eq3xoNt6cKKdckFe+Vu4A+k2S79qnzws4ss6OCA YpWHqmLRS/sPc6CAwe8JnQE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwLiN8dxEoiEbK2gNJfIvSXfT3c60IvscUiBLw+CxdFpN+YnfIB0emoY52EOg52GVWaQYz/Mg== X-Received: by 2002:a63:4d4c:: with SMTP id n12mr1247981pgl.212.1576027302258; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 17:21:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.33.123.64] ([66.170.99.1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v8sm278099pfn.76.2019.12.10.17.21.41 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 10 Dec 2019 17:21:41 -0800 (PST) From: Mahesh Jethanandani Message-Id: <10BD8EDF-6881-4244-A406-0C75BA97695D@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_45C9BD35-C72A-4E61-9BA9-ACB9B5799C65" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 17:21:40 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: idr@ietf.org To: Jared Mauch References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Securing BGP sessions (Issue#41) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 01:21:45 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_45C9BD35-C72A-4E61-9BA9-ACB9B5799C65 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Dec 10, 2019, at 4:51 PM, Jared Mauch = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Dec 10, 2019, at 7:34 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani = wrote: >>=20 >> This is the second thread in the list of issues that were discussed = in IETF 106 w.r.t. to BGP YANG model. This particular thread is to = discuss the issue of defining how BGP sessions are going to be secured. >>=20 >> As stated in Singapore, the model is being defined to secure BGP = sessions using=20 >> - TCP AO >> - TCP MD5 >> - IPSec >>=20 >> In case there was a question of why MD5, it is because there are = existing implementations that are choosing to stay with MD5, regardless = of the issues that have been raised about MD5. The model therefore has = to support such implementations. >>=20 >> The model will use the ietf-key-chain model=E2=80=99s (RFC 8177) = key-chain-ref to refer to an instance of the key chain. By doing that it = will make use of the key rollover capability defined in that model, and = for static key configuration by setting the end time to infinite in the = key chain. The BGP model will leave the case of IPSec as TBD for now, = and fill it when/if the IPSec YANG model is defined. >>=20 >> Questions/Concerns? >=20 > Some comments here: >=20 > I think of the above options the only two that are available are = TCP-MD5 and IPSEC. IPSEC doesn=E2=80=99t have use in the (public) = internet space, but this doesn=E2=80=99t mean people don=E2=80=99t use = it internally or elsewhere.. I just haven=E2=80=99t found any of these = people in real life. >=20 > TCP-AO seems like it=E2=80=99s viable but as I mentioned in one of the = security area meetings at IETF-101, the current operational requirements = are generally stability for 180-1800 days of a BGP session (or longer). = People hate it when their BGP sessions go down and their routes go away = as a result so there=E2=80=99s a lot of steps necessary to upgrade both = sides once they support something like TCP-AO. >=20 > Also operators have a hard enough time keeping the static keys = configured as they often outlast the lifetime of the engineer at the = company and most key rotation systems (eg: IPSec on routers don=E2=80=99t = often expose them in a way that survive device migrations, and key = management/export are poor or non-existent, so people only use them = internally vs externally facing =E2=80=A6) don=E2=80=99t work well or = require time sync in a way that if the fail will drop the TCP session = and BGP goes down as well. >=20 > The other thing is most people just want transport integrity, not = privacy. Not securing the BGP session is certainly an option. Cheers. >=20 > - Jared Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com --Apple-Mail=_45C9BD35-C72A-4E61-9BA9-ACB9B5799C65 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On Dec 10, 2019, at 4:51 PM, Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> wrote:



On = Dec 10, 2019, at 7:34 PM, Mahesh Jethanandani <mjethanandani@gmail.com> wrote:

This is the second thread in the list of issues that were = discussed in IETF 106 w.r.t. to BGP YANG model. This particular thread = is to discuss the issue of defining how BGP sessions are going to be = secured.

As stated in Singapore, the model = is being defined to secure BGP sessions using 
- TCP AO
- TCP MD5
- IPSec

In= case there was a question of why MD5, it is because there are existing = implementations that are choosing to stay with MD5, regardless of the = issues that have been raised about MD5. The model therefore has to = support such implementations.

The model = will use the ietf-key-chain model=E2=80=99s (RFC 8177) key-chain-ref to = refer to an instance of the key chain. By doing that it will make use of = the key rollover capability defined in that model, and for static key = configuration by setting the end time to infinite in the key chain. The = BGP model will leave the case of IPSec as TBD for now, and fill it = when/if the IPSec YANG model is defined.

Questions/Concerns?

Some comments here:

I think of the above options the = only two that are available are TCP-MD5 and IPSEC.  IPSEC doesn=E2=80= =99t have use in the (public) internet space, but this doesn=E2=80=99t = mean people don=E2=80=99t use it internally or elsewhere.. I just = haven=E2=80=99t found any of these people in real life.

TCP-AO seems like it=E2=80=99s = viable but as I mentioned in one of the security area meetings at = IETF-101, the current operational requirements are generally stability = for 180-1800 days of a BGP session (or longer).  People hate it = when their BGP sessions go down and their routes go away as a result so = there=E2=80=99s a lot of steps necessary to upgrade both sides once they = support something like TCP-AO.

Also operators have a hard enough time keeping the static = keys configured as they often outlast the lifetime of the engineer at = the company and most key rotation systems (eg: IPSec on routers don=E2=80=99= t often expose them in a way that survive device migrations, and key = management/export are poor or non-existent, so people only use them = internally vs externally facing =E2=80=A6) don=E2=80=99t work well or = require time sync in a way that if the fail will drop the TCP session = and BGP goes down as well.

The other thing is most people just want transport integrity, = not privacy.

Not = securing the BGP session is certainly an option.

Cheers.


- Jared

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com



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APjAAAXdmsj4hORAXv9K2Ohu5b6+xXWXmFBS+xHzVaI9EzCdT0JSMARh eLW3Kh46znrvW5zGd1uwKJgLeMHs X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxoEcFESt4z8xyj6qXsnsdz7SGILptTkxMlV+wSEduQ/ylFsObcUpk/d/JnncttAzoCK0t4AQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:aa4c:: with SMTP id c12mr532121plr.178.1576028449307; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 17:40:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.33.123.64] ([66.170.99.1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d24sm314090pfq.75.2019.12.10.17.40.48 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 10 Dec 2019 17:40:48 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Mahesh Jethanandani In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 17:40:47 -0800 Cc: "idr@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <68B00DBF-3590-4ECE-8028-301643B9E49E@cisco.com> <91B63CF9-B92B-4D14-98CA-EBC865999B08@gmail.com> To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Securing BGP sessions (Issue#41) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 01:40:52 -0000 > On Dec 10, 2019, at 5:29 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) = wrote: >=20 > Hi Mahesh,=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 12/10/19, 8:19 PM, "Mahesh Jethanandani" = wrote: >=20 > Hi Acee, >=20 >> On Dec 10, 2019, at 5:10 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) = wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Mahesh,=20 >> I assume by IPsec, you mean transport mode IPsec. >=20 > Yes. The assumption is that the underlying transport is secured = using IPsec, and the model provides (if needed) key parameters needed to = kick off the IKE to setup the SA in IPsec. >=20 > HTH. >=20 > Well it doesn't help at all.... Normally, the usage of IPsec (AH, ESP, = algorithms, key exchange, etc.) would be specified in some document. For = example, IPsec usage by OSPFv3 is specified in RFC 4552. Granted, it is = a lot simpler for BGP than OSPFv3 since BGP is strictly P2P but = specification would still seem to necessary.=20 You are right. It should be some document. That document in my mind is = the YANG model for IPsec/IKE, something we need to ask the SEC ADs = about. You would agree that what needs to be defined is not BGP = specific, and therefore does not belong in the BGP model. Much like TCP-AO and TCP-MD5 I expect this other document to define a = grouping that the BGP model imports and uses to define what is needed to = setup IPsec. Cheers. >=20 > Thanks, > Acee >=20 >=20 >> For IPsec protection of BGP, where are the details specified?=20 >> Thanks, >> Acee >>=20 >> On 12/10/19, 7:35 PM, "Idr on behalf of Mahesh Jethanandani" = wrote: >>=20 >> This is the second thread in the list of issues that were discussed = in IETF 106 w.r.t. to BGP YANG model. This particular thread is to = discuss the issue of defining how BGP sessions are going to be secured. >>=20 >> As stated in Singapore, the model is being defined to secure BGP = sessions using=20 >> - TCP AO >> - TCP MD5 >> - IPSec >>=20 >> In case there was a question of why MD5, it is because there are = existing implementations that are choosing to stay with MD5, regardless = of the issues that have been raised about MD5. The model therefore has = to support such implementations. >>=20 >> The model will use the ietf-key-chain model=E2=80=99s (RFC 8177) = key-chain-ref to refer to an instance of the key chain. By doing that it = will make use of the key rollover capability defined in that model, and = for static key configuration by setting the end time to infinite in the = key chain. The BGP model will leave the case of IPSec as TBD for now, = and fill it when/if the IPSec YANG model is defined. >>=20 >> Questions/Concerns? >>=20 >> Mahesh Jethanandani >> mjethanandani@gmail.com >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Idr mailing list >> Idr@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > Mahesh Jethanandani > mjethanandani@gmail.com >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com From nobody Wed Dec 11 11:24:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 266ED120052 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 11:24:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1BD_0sNJgzRu for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 11:24:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qv1-xf31.google.com (mail-qv1-xf31.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FC4E120058 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 11:24:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qv1-xf31.google.com with SMTP id b18so6251948qvy.3 for ; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 11:24:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qPPnlshQbbuTpA+5WZgUTRIBODZ75lhatv+MGUHFTX0=; b=d44gvzU9Jhtkl3cfwpdME7Di4OPF3PgzDAkclwN8WixEIqaWAUTPtMf47uUabNYThR 2YLypZpvIa2PhCRCkohIZBTuLlYdoS9uaj2ikHTypD61Zq7K6Zsv+qqCcdcCIivTn56U Seurh5QOFbMcFUuF4+H8Ph2z09O/ai4vjmIMeSMUFUOoOt2Fub9UAKXFwL8kYcj4JeEj JAWVUYsMSOe1sPJj1Eqw5RhjzciM95zCLeC0mdUtuM2Ygd47KkyPmwxYFcxi3HMzEdVf VJiSyO3mltl42r9Xl2D3DkOfKoHzamxcGkMGG2+XzSqMrzf58OuIEqntqgo8FZEX7rOf d8Qw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qPPnlshQbbuTpA+5WZgUTRIBODZ75lhatv+MGUHFTX0=; b=DU0no4LgKeZb4YwFLYhzoo4KE7Yqiaan2lvsadusxD8GR7UrhPYOCJQvPi/8kSTFPl g/cclNhnxX2QXPMyxDykxVRoeHvi1kwuDoIeVpuqkl44wxy8EDlXiVaMC/8xRzk6Bnbn bxjC0x+B7fgSRa0kt2xUeM6PU7PqaZCtJlDI8YD+l3YxWeBQUm4zEbrcSWY/yEfhLRMm 81oUKxIE2RgkHrBJwq9k8eZhePYuS0Gtm0QbIH09ZoEElhkFOHbgLy+8Ii1gQCFoK2Yf Rel+6GQjLkRHb+Ol6qRF07jLKG4v6xGxTkUn5DeJYxpPKA4eFff6F3SKQbngT5jsUYg4 PYrw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUFuTrTvc7x2oC9n11z2KlBw7vKI9ZXx/3uAF6vI5VKMD6P0Y9P EMz12NmmJ/Mg2fBW17BhzZdurmQS2TQNnyDtYgMJm+H/4TfAtg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzOh+TKHm1h5dS+insR1mnllr3HFzcW5PYJB9edp12k1f1F5/zLnBIJjHWxlLu62pAwmkyQdDGMv5iIIRouCAk= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:8a31:: with SMTP id 46mr4747261qvt.8.1576092261753; Wed, 11 Dec 2019 11:24:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Robert Raszuk Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 20:24:11 +0100 Message-ID: To: "idr@ietf. org" Cc: "grow@ietf.org grow@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000653a350599729370" Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] BGP Auto Discovery and BGP Auto Session Setup X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2019 19:24:25 -0000 --000000000000653a350599729370 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear WG, We have seen formation of BGP Autodiscovery WG followed by total silence. Well maybe group is live just not everyone got onto its private list :) Regardless of this I refreshed and resubmitted two proposals in this very space. 1. BGP Auto Discovery https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-raszuk-idr-bgp-auto-discovery-06 and 2. BGP Automated Session Setup https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-raszuk-idr-bgp-auto-session-setup-01 *Ad 1:* First document is focused on WAN and IX scenario where establishing full mesh of IBGP or selected eBGP peering can automate the operational management tasks or if run in informational mode could validate NMS session setup correctness. Original proposal was presented many years ago in Vienna and at that point suggested extension to IGPs to flood discovery information for IBGP auto mesh. Later based on the input and discussions with Pedro the proposal got simplified to use classic Route Reflector as bootstrap node (info broker). Last input from Jon and Warren added the ability to also automate setup of eBGP sessions in selected scenarios. Since then the document was shelved for some time waiting for IDR WG turn to deal with discovery topic. So here we are. *Ad 2: * The second document first published in July 2018 provides a very trivial to implement mechanism (without even changing BGP state machine) to automatically establish common LAN or p2p interfaces BGP sessions. Typical use case would be Clos DC fabrics, customer PE-CE LANs, TORs to Compute Nodes etc ... Comments, questions, feedback on both proposals all very welcome. Kind regards, Robert. --000000000000653a350599729370 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear WG,

We have seen formation of BGP = Autodiscovery WG followed by total silence. Well maybe group is=C2=A0
=
live just not everyone got onto its private list :)=C2=A0
Regardless of this I refreshed and resubmitted two proposals i= n this very space.=C2=A0

1. BGP Auto Discovery

https://tools.= ietf.org/html/draft-raszuk-idr-bgp-auto-discovery-06 

and 

2. BGP Automated Session Setup
https://tools.ietf.org=
/html/draft-raszuk-idr-bgp-auto-session-setup-01

Ad 1:=


<=
/pre>
First document is focused on WAN and I=
X scenario where establishing full mesh of IBGP or 
selected eBGP peering can automate the operatio=
nal management tasks or if run in informational 
mode could validate NMS session setup correctness.=
 

Original proposal was presented many year=
s ago in Vienna and at that point suggested extension to 
IGPs to flood discovery information for I=
BGP auto mesh. Later based on the input and discussions with =

Pedro the proposal got simplified to =
use classic Route Reflector as bootstrap node (info broker). =


Last input from Jon and Warren added the ability to also=
 automate setup of eBGP sessions in selected 
=
scenarios. 

Since th=
en the document was shelved for some time waiting for IDR WG turn to deal w=
ith discovery topic. 
So here we are. 

Ad 2: 

The second document first published in July 2018 provides a very triv=
ial to implement mechanism (without 
even changing BGP state machine) to automatically estab=
lish common LAN or p2p interfaces BGP sessions. 

Typical use case would be Clos DC fabrics, customer PE-CE LAN=
s, TORs to Compute Nodes etc ... 

C=
omments, questions, feedback on both proposals all very welcome. 

=
Kind regards,
Robert.

--000000000000653a350599729370-- From nobody Thu Dec 12 11:39:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E40F120088; Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:39:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O-D0uyP4M8Qq; Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:39:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ed1-x52f.google.com (mail-ed1-x52f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7EAD4120024; Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:39:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ed1-x52f.google.com with SMTP id f8so26827edv.2; Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:39:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=aHaGPjDam8jkGSUc2WJ2utBaZtJR+b6KdCgWgwpSChM=; b=VgKMMvfFN6ZOPI+GVtA9GvJScDunRkmRtXo07YsF0KwbsI5E6FTiUEeAEkA2bK1SgX uqU9uTGDlEBlXOapITPZ6s1gBAXZcwdujIpfaq39IVymwk8MZAXt6Pu5KmCynCcFBJqY KF5tnv5qiUvS3guKLIO06pgjOhFmvJK7L52VisI3IJizYvKqM/FSbobo5OsSNtWGgxbK ia38hi5NTIU8A1OtNrD7EFXHii82Y7OcbHjmTRdkZUlHlPWso0Pb18nHVJV7tH3xYZ4Q 4QVFlcct8ckfJ1d8BsVRCvAvfQqN3fW3WTKe6wS6Pv0sFF3JsaBM/62nKojrjg0f+pMo JR/g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=aHaGPjDam8jkGSUc2WJ2utBaZtJR+b6KdCgWgwpSChM=; b=MW/tpxn6no4y1eIFPDbp/Q1bKs0yDq8OH8MNR+ID/YpbUDrrOr5H7rysn5JOROt15B 0iRsEbSO66McRkheUQc0lNBlXPqY/NQKF39drNfnPLl1WjW2nj7j97KQhINayKQIVKGN ER1m9q6WvfeX18obpD8hCDghYqaXjJ57/Du87mJOjLvOzj+wIIO7jMw4PISDHlvDfplq 9Ejx+zcKDR41p5N2SnNAg9dwYOLnMHM3fiR/mZWHbzHbDTw+awaNjBeLplRaJMU1JW6S vSy5eC5RZEHjHEc41ub7BVMllSSoy8IxLuiKtGzgyYVvJE568Wxhe2wGctm7P1ZHPYju I6pg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUgqC9MmifgXnVTMVnfNouJbpZX1PGvIqRdR/gBG//343hzJtYa 9hGhUnwODXhtuhG1O1XEHI1JzN78Y7RXzX7HAik= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw9WvVTCCxLLA2SCJkbl/h59ZqJgy6WNQPVAWeqd3pBKffix0y5GJOOhb7946OGaU+OTG1gwjNjR82ol+4duok= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:298:: with SMTP id l24mr11572092edv.70.1576179538216; Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:38:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:38:57 -0800 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:38:57 -0800 Message-ID: To: Christoph Loibl Cc: idr-chairs@ietf.org, "idr@ietf. org" , draft-ietf-idr-rfc5575bis@ietf.org, "Dongjie (Jimmy)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] AD Review of draft-ietf-idr-rfc5575bis-17 -> Updated Version -18 and Flowspec v6 X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 19:39:05 -0000 On November 4, 2019 at 2:23:41 PM, Christoph Loibl (c@tix.at(mailto:c@tix.at)) wrote: Christoph: Hi! > On behalf of the draft-ietf-idr-rfc5575bis authors I uploaded a new versi= on > (-18) of the draft: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-rfc5575bis/ > > This is the result of the improvements that we worked on after your revie= w. > Some of the structural changes lead to big changes if you run the -17/-18 > thru rfcdiff. However, we documented all the changes and the entire proce= ss > on Github. All issues and the related changes can be reviewed there (hopi= ng > to move it to an IETF/IDR Org. account soon): > > https://github.com/stoffi92/rfc5575bis > > Additionally, please see the below comments that we added to your review = text > (for documentation on the IDR list). For all issues you raised we added l= inks > to the issues tracked on Github. For the major issues we also added a com= ment > how those have been resolved. We think that the document has very much > improved and benefited from your review and the process that followed. I went through the comments, the explanations, the GitHub issues, the diffs... :-) =C2=A0Thank you for being so detailed!! The document is looking a lot better! I responded to some of your comments below; I'm also including in-line comments on the -18 version. =C2=A0In some cases it seemed easier/clearer to comment on the resulting text. There is only one significant item remaining that we should resolve before moving the document forward: the handling of unknown components; take a look at the comments in =C2=A711 (of -18). Thanks! Alvaro. [Part I: Comments on your review responses.] ... > 227 2. Definitions of Terms Used in This Memo > ... > 233 Loc-RIB - Local RIB. > > [major] This simple definition doesn't match the one in =C2=A71.1/rfc4271= . > > <-- *** Authors *** > Tracked via issue #11: https://github.com/stoffi92/rfc5575bis/issues/11 > Commit mention: https://github.com/stoffi92/rfc5575bis/commit/b4950ef76c3= 47a67a8e31e0eff4d1433a00e34b8 > > Added the definition to to match RFC4271 > --> [minor] Please add a reference to rfc4271 there too. ... > 281 4. Dissemination of IPv4 FLow Specification Information > ... > 287 This NLRI information is encoded using MP_REACH_NLRI and > 288 MP_UNREACH_NLRI attributes as defined in [RFC4760]. Whenever the > 289 corresponding application does not require Next-Hop information, this > 290 shall be encoded as a 0-octet length Next Hop in the MP_REACH_NLRI > 291 attribute and ignored on receipt. > > [minor] s/Next-Hop/Next Hop rfc4760 uses "Next Hop" > > [nit] "...shall be encoded as a 0-octet length Next Hop in the MP_REACH_N= LRI attribute and ignored on receipt." What is ignored? The Next Hop? If it= doesn't exist (length =3D 0), then it can't be ignored... Perhaps delete "= and ignored on receipt". > > <-- *** Authors *** > Tracked via issue #14: https://github.com/stoffi92/rfc5575bis/issues/14 > Commit mention: https://github.com/stoffi92/rfc5575bis/commit/a89200d70c7= e661c519bf4379ef43fee817f1d71 > --> [major] This is the new text from -18: 255 =C2=A0 This NLRI information is encoded using MP_REACH_NLRI and 256 =C2=A0 MP_UNREACH_NLRI attributes as defined in [RFC4760]. =C2=A0Whene= ver the 257 =C2=A0 corresponding application does not require Next Hop information= , this 258 =C2=A0 shall be encoded as a 0-octet length Next Hop in the MP_REACH_N= LRI 259 =C2=A0 attribute (if a non 0-octet Next Hop is present it should be ig= nored 260 =C2=A0 on receipt). I think I get it: the Next Hop is not needed -- so it is either not present (0-octet length) or ignored. =C2=A0Is that it? What is confusing me is the part about "Whenever the corresponding application does not require Next Hop information", because it sounds as if there are cases when the Next Hop is needed...but then it is ignored anyway. I looked in rfc4760/rfc4271, but they both talk about forwarding to the Next Hop, and not about cases where it is not needed (or at least I didn't find that). =C2=A0IOW, the use defined here is specific to the FS AFI/SAFI pair. =C2=A0The specification of the use (or not) or the Next Hop should then be a lot clearer, and Normative. SUGGESTION> =C2=A0 =C2=A0This NLRI information is encoded using MP_REACH_NLRI and MP_UN= REACH_NLRI =C2=A0 =C2=A0attributes as defined in [RFC4760]. =C2=A0When advertising Flo= w Specifications, =C2=A0 =C2=A0the Length of Next Hop Network Address SHOULD be set to 0. =C2= =A0The Network =C2=A0 =C2=A0Address of Next Hop field MUST be ignored. ... > 325 4.2. NLRI Value Encoding ... > 338 Flow Specification components must follow strict type ordering by > 339 increasing numerical order. A given component type may (exactly > 340 once) or may not be present in the specification. If present, it > 341 MUST precede any component of higher numeric type value. > > [major] What should happen if a component appears more than once? > > [major] What should happen if the order is not maintained? > > <-- *** Authors *** > Tracked via issue #19: https://github.com/stoffi92/rfc5575bis/issues/19 > > Basically if the NLRI is not encoded to specification we have a malformed > NLRI (most probably the BGP NLRI parser will throw an exception on the > implementation). I am not sure if this needs to be made explicit. - But I= can > make this explicit. > --> The question is: what should the implementation do in response to the exception? =C2=A0Should it reset the session? =C2=A0Should it ignore the Up= date? =C2=A0Should it disable the AFI/SAFI? =C2=A0Should it only consider the fir= st component (if it appears more than once)? =C2=A0Something else? I looked at rfc4760/rfc7606, but didn't find anything that looked to me explicitly as corresponding to a Malformed NLRI...but rfc4760 does specify "AFI/SAFI disable": =C2=A0 =C2=A0If a BGP speaker receives from a neighbor an UPDATE message th= at =C2=A0 =C2=A0contains the MP_REACH_NLRI or MP_UNREACH_NLRI attribute, and i= f the =C2=A0 =C2=A0speaker determines that the attribute is incorrect, the speake= r MUST =C2=A0 =C2=A0delete all the BGP routes received from that neighbor whose AF= I/SAFI =C2=A0 =C2=A0is the same as the one carried in the incorrect MP_REACH_NLRI = or =C2=A0 =C2=A0MP_UNREACH_NLRI attribute. For the duration of the BGP session= over =C2=A0 =C2=A0which the UPDATE message was received, the speaker then SHOULD= ignore =C2=A0 =C2=A0all the subsequent routes with that AFI/SAFI received over tha= t =C2=A0 =C2=A0session. The result is then that FS (including the rules/actions already received) would now not be used. =C2=A0Personal opinion: Disabling the AFI/SAFI can be worse than resetting the session because there's no indication to the sender that anything is wrong. If AFI/SAFI disable is the expected behavior for both out-of-order and duplicate components, then nothing else is needed. =C2=A0A note in =C2=A710 would be nice but not necessary. ... > 542 4.2.12. Type 12 - Fragment ... > 548 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 > 549 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ > 550 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |LF |FF |IsF|DF | > 551 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ ... > [major] The operation is not specified. Is this also an (operator,bitmask= ) > pair, or just 8 bits indicating the values? Can multiple bits be set at t= he > same time? What fields in the IP header do these map to? > > <-- *** Authors *** > Tracked via issue #40: https://github.com/stoffi92/rfc5575bis/issues/40 > Commit mention: https://github.com/stoffi92/rfc5575bis/commit/f078e919842= 330d670bc195276ead7bdc05a3351 > > Added the text to the bit-descriptions and IP-header fields - And an exam= ple > using the bitmask operator. > --> The example is for a "matching packet with DF bit set or First Fragments", which answers the question above about whether multiple bits can be set -- yes. =C2=A0What is still not specified is that in the case of multiple bits set, an OR operation is expected. ... > 742 6. Validation Procedure ... > 760 A Flow Specification NLRI must be validated such that it is > 761 considered feasible if and only if all of the below is true: > > [major] There is no Normative language above, but I think there is a > contradiction of sorts with the new text below ("Rule a) MAY be relaxed..= ."). > The introductory text to the rules is "must be...considered feasible if a= nd > only if all of the below is true", which sounds very strict and > specific...but then the Normative exception comes in ("MAY be relaxed...r= ules > b) and c)...MUST be disregarded") saying that it doesn't matter. Please > reword...perhaps something like: "If a destination is present...a Flow > Specification MUST be validated this way...otherwise..." > > <-- *** Authors *** > Tracked via issue #56: https://github.com/stoffi92/rfc5575bis/issues/56 > Commit mention: https://github.com/stoffi92/rfc5575bis/commit/d96a4962950= 21f2aab0332bd2120920547f71c56 > > Changed the text to refer to the default behaviour of the implementation > (MUST validate). However this MAY be relaxed by configuration. > --> I'm still not happy with the contradiction: MUST means "an absolute requirement" (no exceptions!), but then we say MAY, which makes the MUST optional...even with the "by default"... =C2=A0 Please s/MUST/SHOULD =C2=A0The MAY will then explain the "valid reason" to not... ... > 783 BGP implementations MUST also enforce that the AS_PATH attribute of a > 784 route received via the External Border Gateway Protocol (eBGP) > 785 contains the neighboring AS in the left-most position of the AS_PATH > 786 attribute. While this rule is optional in the BGP specification, it > 787 becomes necessary to enforce it for security reasons. ... > [major] In the case of receiving Flow Specifications from a neighbor in a= n > IXP, it may not be possible to enforce the rule above if a "transparent A= SN" > is being used. Please include some text/guidance about that type of case. > Include it either here or in the Security Considerations. ... > <-- *** Authors *** > Tracked via issue #60: https://github.com/stoffi92/rfc5575bis/issues/60 > ... > In the case of IXP indeed this sometime may break in the cases where RS i= s > used. If you even in the IX (which is L2 typically) use direct EBGP sessi= on > it all works ok. If you use session to RS and such RS by design is > transparent in order to not extend the AS_PATH length that enforce first = AS > should be disabled. I think we could say that use of flow spec when peeri= ng > with RS in IXP env is much less secure as ASN spoofing in the AS-PATH can > occur. It is advised to apply strict inbound route policy in such scenari= os. > --> Please add some text in =C2=A713 about it -- something similar to the explanation above would be great. ... > 904 7.3. Traffic-action (traffic-action) sub-type 0x07 ... > 917 o T: Terminal Action (bit 47): When this bit is set, the traffic > 918 filtering engine will apply any subsequent filtering rules (as > 919 defined by the ordering procedure). If not set, the evaluation of > 920 the traffic filter stops when this rule is applied. > > [minor] According to the processing order and the values from Table 2, no= t > setting the bit would effectively cause only the traffic-rate-bytes (0x80= 06) > to ever be applied. Is that the correct interpretation? ... > <-- *** Authors *** > Tracked via issue #72: https://github.com/stoffi92/rfc5575bis/issues/72 > > Minor1: > The terminal action applies to filter rules only, not to the filter actio= ns > (extended communties). Given we have 3 FS filters that match the traffic > (they are sorted first): > FS1) The first has T=3D0 and a traffic-rate-bytes action > FS2) The second has only a redirect-action > FS3) The third has only a traffic-rate-packets action > > Evaluation takes place according to the sorted filters FS1 first, then > FS2(because of T=3D0 in FS1). However, because FS2 has no T=3D0 set evalu= ation > stops here and the resulting action is: traffic-rate-bytes and redirect. Right...rules vs actions... =C2=A0 Please add a reference to =C2=A75.1 (Ord= ering of Flow Specifications) to make it clearer for others. The example helps, but it is wrong. =C2=A0The definition says that when the "bit is set, the traffic filtering engine will apply any subsequent filtering rules"...so the action should result in only traffic-rate-bytes. ... > [major] The range is defined in the registry as "0x80-0x8f Reserved for > Experimental Use". According to rfc8126, "IANA does not record assignment= s > from registries or ranges with this policy". > > I don't know why 0x80 was the first value chosen; it looks like it was fi= rst > used in draft-marques-idr-flow-spec-01 (2004), while the corresponding > Extended Communities draft (draft-ietf-idr-bgp-ext-communities-07) alread= y > indicated that the range was for Experimental Use. I guess just lack of > sync... But then I also don't understand how/why IANA ended up with the > information in the Registry....maybe because the sub-types are not for > Experimental Use -- hmmm, which sounds contradictory to me. > > The reason/history doesn't matter anymore, but the current use does. The > mechanism described in this document is clearly not experimental. Given t= hat > changing the Type values is not an option because of the deployed base, > etc.., then I think we should clean up the Registry and move 0x80-0x82 fr= om > the Experimental Use range to the FCFS range. This change would mean an > Update to rfc7153. > > To simplify the process, the Update can be done in this document. However= , I > think that there's some confusion with these types apparently being > associated only with Flow Specifications, when they are labeled as Generi= c. > IOW, ideally the issue would be corrected independently... > > <-- *** Authors *** > Tracked via issue #99: https://github.com/stoffi92/rfc5575bis/issues/99 > > This is not to be solved within this document. I note that I should propo= se a > update to RFC7153 to cleanup the registry independently. - As noticed mov= ing > the values around is not an option. > --> So, are you working on this already? =C2=A0;-) ... > 1308 13. Security Considerations > > 1310 Inter-provider routing is based on a web of trust. Neighboring > 1311 autonomous systems are trusted to advertise valid reachability > 1312 information. If this trust model is violated, a neighboring > 1313 autonomous system may cause a denial-of-service attack by advertisin= g > 1314 reachability information for a given prefix for which it does not > 1315 provide service. > > 1317 As long as traffic filtering rules are restricted to match the > 1318 corresponding unicast routing paths for the relevant prefixes, the > 1319 security characteristics of this proposal are equivalent to the > 1320 existing security properties of BGP unicast routing. However, this > 1321 document also specifies traffic filtering actions that may need > 1322 custom additional verification on the receiver side. See Section 14. > > [major] In general, Flow Specifications have a one-AS-hop propagation mod= el, > right? This means that the security properties are different because (1) > unicast routing propagates multiple hops, and (2) the intent of the "Rout= e > Origin ASN" (rfc6811) is not reflected in the request to rate-limit, or e= ven > drop (!) traffic to a destination. Yes, it is all based on trust...but > different. For example, Origin Validation wouldn't be available for Flow > Specifications. > > <-- *** Authors *** > Tracked via issue #104: https://github.com/stoffi92/rfc5575bis/issues/104 > > FS is never of one-AS-hop propagation model. > To the very question of the Origin Validation it is all integrated by > original design. That means that if I must validate received FS routes > against unicast prefix and that unicast prefix was already Origin Validat= ed > that implies that FS is also Origin Validated without adding any new ROAs= . > The problem starts when validation is getting disabled as this has avalan= che > effect for entire security model. > --> No, the FS cannot be validated without adding ROAs. =C2=A0For example, consider prefix-x advertised by AS A to AS B and then to AS C; both B and C can validate that AS A is the valid origin using a ROA. =C2=A0AS B then sends a FS to C asking to drop the traffic to prefix-x. =C2=A0Note that the FS has an Origin AS of B, while the ROA is validating an origin AS of A for prefix-x. While I agree that the FS could traverse multiple AS hops, it is not always the case that it would. All this is moot anyway because ROAs are only defined for the IPv4/IPv6 AFs (rfc6482). In any case, if I look really close, the text says that "the security characteristics of this proposal are equivalent to the existing security properties of BGP unicast routing" -- equivalent, not the same. =C2=A0I'll let this go. :-) [Part II: Review of -18.] [Line numbers from id-nits.] ... 17 Abstract 19 =C2=A0 This document obsoletes both RFC5575 and RFC7674. [style nit] Usually this statement is placed at the end of the Abstract/Introduction. =C2=A0Personally, I think it makes it easier to read... [minor] The Abstract shouldn't have references. =C2=A0In the xml: s/ and /RFC 5575 and RFC 7674 21 =C2=A0 This document defines a Border Gateway Protocol Network Layer 22 =C2=A0 Reachability Information (BGP NLRI) encoding format, that can be= used 23 =C2=A0 to distribute traffic Flow Specifications. =C2=A0This allows the= routing 24 =C2=A0 system to propagate information regarding more specific componen= ts of 25 =C2=A0 the traffic aggregate defined by an IP destination prefix. [nit] No comma before "that". =C2=A0 s/encoding format, that/encoding forma= t that ... 32 =C2=A0 Additionally, it defines two applications of that encoding forma= t: 33 =C2=A0 one that can be used to automate inter-domain coordination of tr= affic 34 =C2=A0 filtering, such as what is required in order to mitigate 35 =C2=A0 (distributed) denial-of-service attacks, and a second applicatio= n to 36 =C2=A0 provide traffic filtering in the context of a BGP/MPLS VPN servi= ce. 37 =C2=A0 Other applications (ie. centralized control of traffic in a SDN = or 38 =C2=A0 NFV context) are also possible. =C2=A0Other drafts specify IPv6,= MPLS 39 =C2=A0 addresses, L2VPN addresses, and NV03 encapsulation of IP address= es as 40 =C2=A0 Flow Specification extensions. [minor] (Related to the last sentence.) As I mentioned before, the Introduction only points at the IPv6 draft, but it could benefit from pointers to the other drafts mentioned here. =C2=A0Given the recent discussion about extensibility, it may be better to simply not be specific about what other drafts may specify: SUGGESTION> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Other documents may specify Flow Specification extensions. 42 =C2=A0 The information is carried via the BGP, thereby reusing protocol 43 =C2=A0 algorithms, operational experience, and administrative processes= such 44 =C2=A0 as inter-provider peering agreements. [nit] s/carried via the BGP/carried via BGP ... 120 1. =C2=A0Introduction ... 154 =C2=A0 A Flow Specification received from an external autonomous syste= m will 155 =C2=A0 need to be validated against unicast routing before being accep= ted 156 =C2=A0 (Section 6). =C2=A0The flow specification received from an inte= rnal BGP 157 =C2=A0 peer within the same autonomous system (per [RFC4271]) is assum= ed to 158 =C2=A0 have been validated prior to transmission within the iBGP mesh = of an 159 =C2=A0 autonomous system. =C2=A0If the aggregate traffic flow defined = by the 160 =C2=A0 unicast destination prefix is forwarded to a given BGP peer, th= en the 161 =C2=A0 local system can install more specific Flow Specifications that= may 162 =C2=A0 result in different forwarding behavior, as requested by this s= ystem. [nit] s/flow specification (and other case variations)/Flow Specification/g [nit] s/(per [RFC4271])/[RFC4271] ... 249 4. =C2=A0Dissemination of IPv4 FLow Specification Information [nit] s/FLow/Flow ... 295 4.2. =C2=A0NLRI Value Encoding ... 311 =C2=A0 All combinations of components within a single Flow Specificati= on are 312 =C2=A0 allowed. =C2=A0However, some combinations cannot match any pack= ets (ie. 313 =C2=A0 "ICMP Type AND Port" will never match any packets), and thus SH= OULD 314 =C2=A0 NOT be propagated by BGP. [nit] s/ie./e.g. ... 607 4.3.1. =C2=A0Example 1 ... 620 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+-------+------------+--------------= ----------------+ 621 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Value | =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| 622 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+-------+------------+--------------= ----------------+ 623 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A00x0b | length =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = | 11 octets (len<240 1-octet) =C2=A0| 624 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A00x01 | type =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 | Type 1 - Destination Prefix =C2=A0| 625 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A00x18 | length =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = | 24 bit =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 | 626 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A00xc0 | prefix =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = | 192 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| 627 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A00x00 | prefix =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = | 0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| 628 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A00x02 | prefix =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = | 2 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| 629 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A00x03 | type =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 | Type 3 - IP Protocol =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | 630 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A00x81 | numeric_op | end-of-l= ist, value size=3D1, =3D | 631 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A00x06 | value =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0| IP Protocol 6 =3D TCP =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| 632 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A00x04 | type =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 | Type 4 - Port =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0| 633 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A00x81 | numeric_op | end-of-l= ist, value size=3D1, =3D | 634 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =C2=A00x19 | value =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0| 25 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | 635 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+-------+------------+--------------= ----------------+ [minor] Table 1 defines equal as "=3D=3D (equal)" -- just to be consistent. =C2=A0s/=3D/=3D=3D/g ... 959 7.3. =C2=A0Traffic-action (traffic-action) sub-type 0x07 ... 986 =C2=A0 o =C2=A0Traffic Action Field: Other Traffic Action Field (see S= ection 12) 987 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bits unused in this specification. [major] How should unknown bits be treated? =C2=A0In the last version, the text read: "should always be set to 0 by the originator and not be evaluated by the receiving BGP speaker." =C2=A0Please add something like that. ... 1047 7.6. =C2=A0Interaction with other Filtering Mechanisms in Routers [minor] Perhaps: s/other Filtering/Custom Filtering 1049 =C2=A0 Implementations SHOULD provide mechanisms that map an arbitrar= y BGP 1050 =C2=A0 community value (normal or extended) to Traffic Filtering Acti= ons 1051 =C2=A0 that require different mappings in different systems in the ne= twork. 1052 =C2=A0 For instance, providing packets with a worse-than-best-effort,= per- 1053 =C2=A0 hop behavior is a functionality that is likely to be implement= ed 1054 =C2=A0 differently in different systems and for which no standard beh= avior 1055 =C2=A0 is currently known. =C2=A0Rather than attempting to define it = here, this 1056 =C2=A0 can be accomplished by mapping a user-defined community value = to 1057 =C2=A0 platform-/network-specific behavior via user configuration. [] Moving this paragraph to its own section is an improvement. [major] However, the Normative specification still bothers me because the text is not specific enough for implementations to interoperate...which I know is precisely the point (no standard behavior), so Normative language should not be used. =C2=A0 Please s/SHOULD/should =C2=A0(to take the text back to what rfc5575 says) ... 1080 8. =C2=A0Dissemination of Traffic Filtering in BGP/MPLS VPN Networks ... 1092 =C2=A0 The NLRI format for this address family consists of a fixed-le= ngth 1093 =C2=A0 Route Distinguisher field (8 bytes) followed by the Flow 1094 =C2=A0 Specification NLRI value Section 4.2. =C2=A0The NLRI length fi= eld shall 1095 =C2=A0 include both the 8 bytes of the Route Distinguisher as well as= the 1096 =C2=A0 subsequent Flow Specification NLRI value. =C2=A0The resulting = encoding is 1097 =C2=A0 shown in Figure 7. [minor] s/Flow Specification NLRI value Section 4.2./Flow Specification NLRI value (Section 4.2). ... 1137 10. =C2=A0Error-Handling [nit] s/Error-Handling/Error Handling 1139 =C2=A0 Error handling according to [RFC7606] SHOULD apply to this 1140 =C2=A0 specification. [major] rfc7606 already applies...there's no need to Normatively say it here. =C2=A0And, BTW, then wound it not apply? =C2=A0IOW, why is that "SHOULD" not a "MUST"? NEW (suggestion): Error handling according to [RFC7606] and [RFC4760] applies to this specification. 1142 =C2=A0 This document introduces Traffic Filtering Action Extended 1143 =C2=A0 Communities. =C2=A0Malformed Traffic Filtering Action Extended= Communities 1144 =C2=A0 in the sense of [RFC7606] Section 7.14. are Extended Community= values 1145 =C2=A0 that cannot be decoded according to Section 7 of this document= . [] Please see my comment (above) in reply to your comments related to =C2=A74.2 (NLRI Value Encoding). 1147 11. =C2=A0Future NLRI Extensions 1149 =C2=A0 Future Flow Specification extensions may introduce new Flow 1150 =C2=A0 Specification components. =C2=A0In order to facilitate such ex= tensions of 1151 =C2=A0 the Flow Specification NLRI, in addition to the cases describe= d in 1152 =C2=A0 [RFC7606], if BGP encounters an unknown Flow Specification com= ponent 1153 =C2=A0 in an UPDATE message, it SHOULD also treat this message as Tre= at-as- 1154 =C2=A0 withdraw as specified in [RFC7606] Section 2. [minor] This paragraph describes an error condition, so maybe it belongs in= =C2=A710. [major] rfc7606/=C2=A73 reads: =C2=A0 j. =C2=A0Finally, we observe that in order to use the approach of "t= reat- =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 as-withdraw", the entire NLRI field and/or the MP_REAC= H_NLRI and =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 MP_UNREACH_NLRI attributes need to be successfully par= sed -- what =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this entails is discussed in more detail in Section 5.= =C2=A0If this =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is not possible, the procedures of [RFC4271] and/or [R= FC4760] =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 continue to apply, meaning that the "session reset" ap= proach (or =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the "AFI/SAFI disable" approach) MUST be followed. If an unknown Flow Specification component exists, then the entire NLRI cannot be "successfully parsed"...which results in not being able to use treat-as-withdraw. =C2=A0The text above leaves us with AFI/SAFI disable, which is not extension-friendly. rfc7606/=C2=A75.4 talks about Typed NLRIs, such as in mVPN/EVPN, and concludes by saying: =C2=A0 =C2=A0A BGP speaker advertising support for such a typed address fam= ily =C2=A0 =C2=A0MUST handle routes with unrecognized NLRI types within that ad= dress =C2=A0 =C2=A0family by discarding them, unless the relevant specification f= or that =C2=A0 =C2=A0address family specifies otherwise. The FS NLRI is not a Typed NLRI in the same sense that the examples from rfc7606 are: the NLRI encoding starts with "Route Type". =C2=A0But, because the NLRI is basically a set of components, *with Types*, I think we could make the case that the FS NLRI is a Typed NLRI and that the paragraph above applies to it...which would result in being able to ignore/discard an UPDATE with an unknown component (vs AFI/SAFI disable). =C2=A0Note that treat-as-withdraw is still not an option. To be clear: all this is my personal interpretation/proposal. =C2=A0If you (authors) want to go with this approach (resulting in the ability to discard), then we should explicitly bounce it by the WG. =C2=A0If not, then we can only reset the session or disable FS... NEW (suggestion)> =C2=A0 =C2=A0An advertisement containing an unknown Flow Specification comp= onent should be discarded as specified in Section 5.4 of [RFC7606]. Additional text would be needed in =C2=A74.2 identifying the FS NLRI as Typ= ed. 1156 =C2=A0 The specification of a new Flow Specification Component Type S= HOULD 1157 =C2=A0 clearly identify what the criteria used to match packets forwa= rded by 1158 =C2=A0 the router is. =C2=A0This criteria should be meaningful across= router hops 1159 =C2=A0 and not depend on values that change hop-by-hop such as TTL or= Layer 1160 =C2=A0 2 encapsulation. [major] Only "SHOULD"? =C2=A0I can't imagine a case where it would be ok to not identify the criteria clearly. =C2=A0s/SHOULD/MUST ... 1192 12.2. =C2=A0Flow Component Definitions ... 1222 =C2=A0 In order to manage the limited number space and accommodate se= veral 1223 =C2=A0 usages, the following policies defined by [RFC8126] are used: 1225 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +--------------+-----------= --------------------+ 1226 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | Type Values =C2=A0| Polic= y =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0| 1227 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +--------------+-----------= --------------------+ 1228 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | 0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Specification required =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| 1229 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | [1 .. 12] =C2=A0 =C2=A0| = Defined by this specification | 1230 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | [13 .. 127] =C2=A0| Speci= fication required =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| 1231 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | [128 .. 255] | First Come= First Served =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | 1232 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +--------------+-----------= --------------------+ [minor] Consider simply reserving 0. ... 1343 13. =C2=A0Security Considerations ... 1357 =C2=A0 Deployment of specific relaxations of the validation within an 1358 =C2=A0 administrative boundary of a network, defined by an AS or an A= S- 1359 =C2=A0 Confederation boundary, may be useful in some networks for qui= ckly 1360 =C2=A0 distributing filters to prevent denial-of-service attacks. =C2= =A0For a 1361 =C2=A0 network to utilize this relaxation, the BGP policies must supp= ort 1362 =C2=A0 additional filtering since the origin AS field is empty. 1363 =C2=A0 Specifications relaxing the validation restrictions SHOULD con= tain 1364 =C2=A0 security considerations that provide details on the required 1365 =C2=A0 additional filtering. =C2=A0For example, the use of [RFC6811] = to enhance 1366 =C2=A0 filtering within an AS confederation. [major] When would it be ok for a specification to not provide details? =C2=A0IOW, why is "SHOULD" used and not "MUST"? ... 1418 14. =C2=A0Contributors 1420 =C2=A0 Barry Greene, Pedro Marques, Jared Mauch, Danny McPherson, and 1421 =C2=A0 Nischal Sheth were authors on [RFC5575], and therefore are 1422 =C2=A0 contributing authors on this document. [minor] Danny is listed both as a Contributor and as an author of this docu= ment. 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b3RvY29sIHsNCiAgICA+IDogICAgICAgICAgICBrZXkgInR5cGUgbmFtZSI7DQogICAgPiA6ICAg ICAgICAgICAgZGVzY3JpcHRpb24NCiAgICA+IA0KICAgID4gLS0gSmVmZg0KICAgIA0KICAgIF9f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQogICAgSWRyIG1h aWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KICAgIElkckBpZXRmLm9yZw0KICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21h aWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWRyDQogICAgDQoNCg== From nobody Thu Dec 12 19:37:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFA56120820; Thu, 12 Dec 2019 19:37:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 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lhreml713-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.64) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.1713.5 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 03:37:26 +0000 Received: from NKGEML514-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::40a8:f0d:c0f3:2ca5]) by nkgeml412-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.73]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 11:37:15 +0800 From: "Wanghaibo (Rainsword)" To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" , Jeffrey Haas CC: "idr@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-idr-bgp-model@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-rtgwg-ni-model@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Idr] draft-ietf-idr-bgp-model Thread-Index: AdVTYqP7HEGobTyKRLSJ6VQT3MRf2gI66BIAAA6vHoAQXeODgATEa24AABTqVAA= Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 03:37:14 +0000 Message-ID: <1E61161D6E31D849BEA887261DB609348CA1D40F@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <1E61161D6E31D849BEA887261DB609348C8F2E20@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> <20190826203850.GH24671@pfrc.org> <1E61161D6E31D849BEA887261DB609348C90DB78@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> <20191118110851.GK21134@pfrc.org> <38672C45-991E-42F6-8D2A-E001C7F0D75A@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <38672C45-991E-42F6-8D2A-E001C7F0D75A@cisco.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.202.142] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] draft-ietf-idr-bgp-model X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 03:37:32 -0000 SGksIEFjZWUNCg0KUkZDIDQzNjQgZG9lcyBub3QgZGVzY3JpYmUgdGhlIHVzZSBvZiBtdWx0aXBs ZSBpbnN0YW5jZXMgb24gdGhlIHB1YmxpYyBuZXR3b3JrLCBidXQgbm93IG11bHRpcGxlIHZlbmRv cnMgaGF2ZSBzdXBwb3J0ZWQgc3VjaCBmdW5jdGlvbnMsIA0KDQpFZw0KDQpyb3V0ZXIgYmdwIDEw MCBpbnN0YW5jZSBhMSAgICAgICAvLyBvbmUgYmdwIGluc3RhbmNlIGhlcmUNCiBiZ3Agcm91dGVy 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<1E61161D6E31D849BEA887261DB609348C90DB78@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> <20191118110851.GK21134@pfrc.org> <38672C45-991E-42F6-8D2A-E001C7F0D75A@cisco.com> <1E61161D6E31D849BEA887261DB609348CA1D40F@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> <78B89452-BCF8-4941-B9BB-352C4477AF2C@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <78B89452-BCF8-4941-B9BB-352C4477AF2C@cisco.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 14:40:46 +0100 Message-ID: To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" Cc: "Wanghaibo (Rainsword)" , Jeffrey Haas , "idr@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-rtgwg-ni-model@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-idr-bgp-model@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003422b90599960326" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] draft-ietf-idr-bgp-model X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 13:41:06 -0000 --0000000000003422b90599960326 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Acee, Please observe that BGP instance being discussed here is orthogonal to L3VPN services. It is not BGP context per VRF. There may not be any VRFs at all while there are valid needs to run multiple BGP instances on a box - just there are for ISIS :) Support of that should be reflected in the Yang model I am afraid. Best, R,. On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 1:30 PM Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > Hi Wanghaibo, > The MPLS VPN support (RFC 4364), is confined to the default networking > instance. However, you could additional use BGP as a PE-CE protocol in th= e > non-default network instance (aka, VRFs). > Thanks, > Acee > > =EF=BB=BFOn 12/12/19, 10:37 PM, "Wanghaibo (Rainsword)" > wrote: > > Hi, Acee > > RFC 4364 does not describe the use of multiple instances on the publi= c > network, but now multiple vendors have supported such functions, > > Eg > > router bgp 100 instance a1 // one bgp instance here > bgp router-id 12.12.12.12 > address-family vpnv4 unicast > ! > neighbor 121.1.1.1 > remote-as 100 > address-family vpnv4 unicast //and its vpnv4 unicast neighbor, > support service for vrf-a1 > ! > ! > vrf vrf-a1 //vrf-a1 here > rd auto > address-family ipv4 unicast > redistribute static > ! > ! > ! > router bgp 200 instance a2 // another bgp instance here > bgp router-id 13.1.1.1 > address-family vpnv4 unicast > ! > address-family ipv6 unicast > ! > address-family l2vpn evpn > ! > neighbor 122.1.1.1 > remote-as 100 > address-family vpnv4 unicast //and its vpnv4 unicast > neighbor=EF=BC=8Csupport service for a3 > ! > address-family l2vpn evpn > ! > ! > vrf a3 //a3 here > rd 13.1.1.1:2 > address-family ipv4 unicast > ! > ! > > Regards, > Haibo > > -----Original Message----- > From: Acee Lindem (acee) [mailto:acee@cisco.com] > Sent: Friday, December 13, 2019 6:33 AM > To: Jeffrey Haas ; Wanghaibo (Rainsword) < > rainsword.wang@huawei.com> > Cc: idr@ietf.org; draft-ietf-idr-bgp-model@ietf.org; > draft-ietf-rtgwg-ni-model@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Idr] draft-ietf-idr-bgp-model > > I don=E2=80=99t think there is any ambiguity here. For BGP VPN config= uration > (e.g., RFC 4364), the BGP configuration will augment > control-plane-protocols in the default network instance. References to > other network instances, should use a leafref with an xpath pointing to t= he > network-instance name. A BGP instance may also be configured as a > control-plane protocol within a network-instance - either as a PE-CE > protocol or simply for routing within the routing domain corresponding to > the network-instance. > Thanks, > Acee > > On 11/18/19, 6:06 AM, "Idr on behalf of Jeffrey Haas" < > idr-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote: > > Per IDR mic comment, copying once again to IDR since I mis-laid > the mail. > My apologies, Haibo. > > If I understand your comment correctly, your question is "how do > you bind a > given routing instance (e.g. VRF) to a given BGP session?" > > If so, I think you are correct. We do not have a clean way to > specify this. > It may also have impacts on the network instancing model in > general. Let us > raise the issue with netmod working group. > > -- Jeff > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 03:39:17AM +0000, Wanghaibo (Rainsword) > wrote: > > Hi Jeff, > > > > Thanks for your reply. > > > > I have read this example. But it doesn't solve my doubts. > > If I have two public bgp instance like this: > > "ietf-routing:routing": { > > "router-id": "192.0.2.1", > > "control-plane-protocols": { > > "control-plane-protocol": [ > > { > > "type": "ietf-routing:bgp", > > "name": "bgp0", > > "description": > > "Bgp for CustomerA.", > > "bgp": { > > "neighbors":{ > > "neighbor":[ > > { > > "remote-address":"192.0.2.1", > > "peer-as":"64497" > > "afi-safis":{ > > "afi-safi":[ > > "afi-safi-name":"bt:l3vpn-ipv4-unicast" > > ] > > } > > } > > ] > > } > > } > > } > > ] > > "control-plane-protocol": [ > > { > > "type": "ietf-routing:bgp", > > "name": "bgp1", > > "description": > > "Static routing is used for the internal > network.", > > "bgp": { > > "neighbors":{ > > "neighbor":[ > > { > > "remote-address":"192.0.3.1", > > "peer-as":"64497" > > "afi-safis":{ > > "afi-safi":[ > > "afi-safi-name":"bt:l2vpn-evpn" > > ] > > } > > } > > ] > > } > > } > > } > > ] > > }, > > > > And I have two vrf instance like : > > "ietf-network-instance:network-instances": { > > "network-instance": [ > > { > > "name": "vrf-old", > > ... > > } > > ] > > } > > "ietf-network-instance:network-instances": { > > "network-instance": [ > > { > > "name": "vrf-new", > > ... > > } > > ] > > } > > > > I want to specify the vrf-old use bgp0 to advertise routes > using l3vpn-ipv4-unicast, and use bgp1 for vrf-new to advertise routes > using l2vpn-evpn with type5. > > So how can I do this ? > > > > Regards, > > Haibo > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jeffrey Haas [mailto:jhaas@pfrc.org] > > Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2019 4:39 AM > > To: Wanghaibo (Rainsword) > > Cc: draft-ietf-idr-bgp-model@ietf.org; idr@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Idr] draft-ietf-idr-bgp-model > > > > On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 12:32:01PM +0000, Wanghaibo (Rainsword) > wrote: > > > Hi authors, > > > > > > I have some question about the bgp model. > > > > > > In current model, the bgp module will augment to routing, > > > /rt:routing/rt:control-plane-protocols > > > /rt:control-plane-protocol: > > > And the routing will schema mount to network-instance. > > > > > > In this model, how to realize the multiple bgp public > instance, like that > > > > > > bgp instance 1 as-number 100 > > > neighbor 2.2.2.2 > > > address-family vpn-ipv4 > > > vrf vpn1 > > > neighbor 11.1.1.1 > > > address-family ipv4 > > > > > > bgp instance 2 as-number 200 > > > neighbor 3.3.3.3 > > > address-family vpn-ipv4 > > > vrf vpn2 > > > neighbor 12.1.1.1 > > > address-family ipv4 > > > > > > Bgp doesn't like ospf or isis, the vrf's bgp will associate t= o > public bgp's special address family. > > > I'm not find how to describe the associate in current model > > > > The bgp model uses NMDA: > > augment "/rt:routing/rt:control-plane-protocols/" > > + "rt:control-plane-protocol" { > > > > You may find this example from RFC 8349 helpful: > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8349 > > > > : Appendix D. Data Tree Example > > : [...] > > : > > : > > : "ietf-routing:routing": { > > : "router-id": "192.0.2.1", > > : "control-plane-protocols": { > > : "control-plane-protocol": [ > > : { > > : "type": "ietf-routing:static", > > : "name": "st0", > > : "description": > > : "Static routing is used for the internal > network.", > > : > > > > The definition of control plane protocols permits > multi-instancing via name: > > > > : container control-plane-protocols { > > : description > > : "Support for control-plane protocol instances."; > > : list control-plane-protocol { > > : key "type name"; > > : description > > > > -- Jeff > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > --0000000000003422b90599960326 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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([2601:647:5600:5020:85b0:636a:fdd9:8b35]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b2sm13338552pff.6.2019.12.13.15.09.33 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 13 Dec 2019 15:09:34 -0800 (PST) From: Mahesh Jethanandani Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D71AFA81-297C-4CBB-BC06-BD5F3DA539E4" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 15:09:32 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: "idr@ietf.org" To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" References: <68B00DBF-3590-4ECE-8028-301643B9E49E@cisco.com> <91B63CF9-B92B-4D14-98CA-EBC865999B08@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Securing BGP sessions (Issue#41) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 23:09:38 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D71AFA81-297C-4CBB-BC06-BD5F3DA539E4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Acee, > On Dec 13, 2019, at 10:47 AM, Acee Lindem (acee) = wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> Well it doesn't help at all.... Normally, the usage of IPsec (AH, = ESP, algorithms, key exchange, etc.) would be specified in some = document. For example, IPsec usage by OSPFv3 is specified in RFC 4552. = Granted, it is a lot simpler for BGP than OSPFv3 since BGP is strictly = P2P but specification would still seem to necessary.=20 >=20 > You are right. It should be some document. That document in my mind = is the YANG model for IPsec/IKE, something we need to ask the SEC ADs = about. You would agree that what needs to be defined is not BGP = specific, and therefore does not belong in the BGP model. >=20 > Much like TCP-AO and TCP-MD5 I expect this other document to define = a grouping that the BGP model imports and uses to define what is needed = to setup IPsec. >=20 > Actually I disagree with you - TCP MD5 and TCP-AO are more than = adequately documented.=20 >=20 > MD5 - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc2385/ = > TCP-AO - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc5925/ = What you are pointing to me is the document that describes how the two = technologies can be used to secure BGP. I am aware of those RFCs. The = document I am looking for is a YANG model that defines a grouping for = MD5 and TCP-AO that the BGP model can import and use.=20 >=20 > It is only IPsec transport mode that isn't described. Also, I don't = know of anyone who supports this so I'm wondering why it is in the = discussion for this version of the BGP YANG model. I will let Jeff comment on this. Cheers. >=20 > Thanks, > Acee >=20 >=20 > Cheers. >=20 >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Acee >>=20 >>=20 >>> For IPsec protection of BGP, where are the details specified?=20 >>> Thanks, >>> Acee >>>=20 >>> On 12/10/19, 7:35 PM, "Idr on behalf of Mahesh Jethanandani" = wrote: >>>=20 >>> This is the second thread in the list of issues that were discussed = in IETF 106 w.r.t. to BGP YANG model. This particular thread is to = discuss the issue of defining how BGP sessions are going to be secured. >>>=20 >>> As stated in Singapore, the model is being defined to secure BGP = sessions using=20 >>> - TCP AO >>> - TCP MD5 >>> - IPSec >>>=20 >>> In case there was a question of why MD5, it is because there are = existing implementations that are choosing to stay with MD5, regardless = of the issues that have been raised about MD5. The model therefore has = to support such implementations. >>>=20 >>> The model will use the ietf-key-chain model=E2=80=99s (RFC 8177) = key-chain-ref to refer to an instance of the key chain. By doing that it = will make use of the key rollover capability defined in that model, and = for static key configuration by setting the end time to infinite in the = key chain. The BGP model will leave the case of IPSec as TBD for now, = and fill it when/if the IPSec YANG model is defined. >>>=20 >>> Questions/Concerns? >>>=20 >>> Mahesh Jethanandani >>> mjethanandani@gmail.com >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Idr mailing list >>> Idr@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >> Mahesh Jethanandani >> mjethanandani@gmail.com >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > Mahesh Jethanandani > mjethanandani@gmail.com --Apple-Mail=_D71AFA81-297C-4CBB-BC06-BD5F3DA539E4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Acee,

On Dec 13, 2019, at 10:47 AM, Acee Lindem = (acee) <acee@cisco.com> wrote:


Well it doesn't help at all.... Normally, the = usage of IPsec (AH, ESP, algorithms, key exchange, etc.) would be = specified in some document. For example, IPsec usage by OSPFv3 is = specified in RFC 4552. Granted, it is a lot simpler for BGP than OSPFv3 = since BGP is strictly P2P but specification would still seem to = necessary. 

   You are right. It should be some document. = That document in my mind is the YANG model for IPsec/IKE, something we = need to ask the SEC ADs about. You would agree that what needs to be = defined is not BGP specific, and therefore does not belong in the BGP = model.

   Much like TCP-AO and TCP-MD5 I expect this = other document to define a grouping that the BGP model imports and uses = to define what is needed to setup IPsec.

Actually I disagree with you - TCP MD5 and TCP-AO are more = than adequately documented. 

  MD5 - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc2385/
  TCP-AO - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc5925/

What you are = pointing to me is the document that describes how the two technologies = can be used to secure BGP. I am aware of those RFCs. The document I am = looking for is a YANG model that defines a grouping for MD5 and TCP-AO = that the BGP model can import and use. 


It is only IPsec transport mode = that isn't described. Also, I don't know of anyone who supports this so = I'm wondering why it is in the discussion for this version of the BGP = YANG model.

I will = let Jeff comment on this.

Cheers.


Thanks,
Acee


   Cheers.


Thanks,
Acee


For IPsec protection of BGP, where are the = details specified? 
Thanks,
Acee

On = 12/10/19, 7:35 PM, "Idr on behalf of Mahesh Jethanandani" <idr-bounces@ietf.org = on behalf of mjethanandani@gmail.com> wrote:

 This is the second thread in the list of issues that = were discussed in IETF 106 w.r.t. to BGP YANG model. This particular = thread is to discuss the issue of defining how BGP sessions are going to = be secured.

 As stated in Singapore, = the model is being defined to secure BGP sessions using 
 - TCP = AO
 - TCP MD5
 - IPSec

 In case there was a question of why MD5, = it is because there are existing implementations that are choosing to = stay with MD5, regardless of the issues that have been raised about MD5. = The model therefore has to support such implementations.
 The model will use the ietf-key-chain model=E2=80=99s = (RFC 8177) key-chain-ref to refer to an instance of the key chain. By = doing that it will make use of the key rollover capability defined in = that model, and for static key configuration by setting the end time to = infinite in the key chain. The BGP model will leave the case of IPSec as = TBD for now, and fill it when/if the IPSec YANG model is defined.

 Questions/Concerns?

 Mahesh Jethanandani
 mjethanandani@gmail.com



 _______________________________________________
 Idr mailing list
 Idr@ietf.org
 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr


  Mahesh = Jethanandani
  mjethanandani@gmail.com






   Mahesh = Jethanandani
   mjethanandani@gmail.com

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([2601:647:5600:5020:85b0:636a:fdd9:8b35]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t137sm11980374pgb.40.2019.12.13.15.55.08 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 13 Dec 2019 15:55:09 -0800 (PST) From: Mahesh Jethanandani Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_29C6CEBA-F582-42B8-98FC-55AA7CCC248E" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 15:55:08 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: "idr@ietf.org" To: "Acee Lindem (acee)" References: <68B00DBF-3590-4ECE-8028-301643B9E49E@cisco.com> <91B63CF9-B92B-4D14-98CA-EBC865999B08@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Securing BGP sessions (Issue#41) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 23:55:13 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_29C6CEBA-F582-42B8-98FC-55AA7CCC248E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Acee, I realize that the last e-mail did not help. So let me see if this is = any better. If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that securing BGP with = MD5 and TCP-AO is adequately documented, and I agree. We just need a = YANG model (in a different document) that defines groupings for them = such that the BGP model can use them. BTW, work has started in TCPM to = define just that model, just that it is still an I-D, and not a WG = document. That puts BGP YANG model in a downrev with that draft. If at = the time of publication, the draft has not made progress, IDR will have = to make a decision of whether they want to keep that dependency or push = support for secure sessions out into a -bis document. To the question of IPsec, and whether we should support it or not, as I = said, I will let Jeff comment. But what kind of documentation are you = hoping for? Isn=E2=80=99t it just a question of giving IKE the = parameters it needs to setup a IPsec tunnel? If we decide to support it, = i2nsf WG has been working on an IKE model, as I just learnt, complete = with re-keying, which with a few changes could be used by the BGP model. Cheers. > On Dec 13, 2019, at 10:47 AM, Acee Lindem (acee) = wrote: >=20 > Hi Mahesh,=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 12/10/19, 8:41 PM, "Mahesh Jethanandani" = > wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Dec 10, 2019, at 5:29 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) = wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Mahesh,=20 >>=20 >> On 12/10/19, 8:19 PM, "Mahesh Jethanandani" = wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Acee, >>=20 >>> On Dec 10, 2019, at 5:10 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Mahesh,=20 >>> I assume by IPsec, you mean transport mode IPsec. >>=20 >> Yes. The assumption is that the underlying transport is secured = using IPsec, and the model provides (if needed) key parameters needed to = kick off the IKE to setup the SA in IPsec. >>=20 >> HTH. >>=20 >> Well it doesn't help at all.... Normally, the usage of IPsec (AH, = ESP, algorithms, key exchange, etc.) would be specified in some = document. For example, IPsec usage by OSPFv3 is specified in RFC 4552. = Granted, it is a lot simpler for BGP than OSPFv3 since BGP is strictly = P2P but specification would still seem to necessary.=20 >=20 > You are right. It should be some document. That document in my mind = is the YANG model for IPsec/IKE, something we need to ask the SEC ADs = about. You would agree that what needs to be defined is not BGP = specific, and therefore does not belong in the BGP model. >=20 > Much like TCP-AO and TCP-MD5 I expect this other document to define = a grouping that the BGP model imports and uses to define what is needed = to setup IPsec. >=20 > Actually I disagree with you - TCP MD5 and TCP-AO are more than = adequately documented.=20 >=20 > MD5 - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc2385/ = > TCP-AO - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc5925/ = >=20 > It is only IPsec transport mode that isn't described. Also, I don't = know of anyone who supports this so I'm wondering why it is in the = discussion for this version of the BGP YANG model. >=20 > Thanks, > Acee >=20 >=20 > Cheers. >=20 >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Acee >>=20 >>=20 >>> For IPsec protection of BGP, where are the details specified?=20 >>> Thanks, >>> Acee >>>=20 >>> On 12/10/19, 7:35 PM, "Idr on behalf of Mahesh Jethanandani" = wrote: >>>=20 >>> This is the second thread in the list of issues that were discussed = in IETF 106 w.r.t. to BGP YANG model. This particular thread is to = discuss the issue of defining how BGP sessions are going to be secured. >>>=20 >>> As stated in Singapore, the model is being defined to secure BGP = sessions using=20 >>> - TCP AO >>> - TCP MD5 >>> - IPSec >>>=20 >>> In case there was a question of why MD5, it is because there are = existing implementations that are choosing to stay with MD5, regardless = of the issues that have been raised about MD5. The model therefore has = to support such implementations. >>>=20 >>> The model will use the ietf-key-chain model=E2=80=99s (RFC 8177) = key-chain-ref to refer to an instance of the key chain. By doing that it = will make use of the key rollover capability defined in that model, and = for static key configuration by setting the end time to infinite in the = key chain. The BGP model will leave the case of IPSec as TBD for now, = and fill it when/if the IPSec YANG model is defined. >>>=20 >>> Questions/Concerns? >>>=20 >>> Mahesh Jethanandani >>> mjethanandani@gmail.com >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Idr mailing list >>> Idr@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >> Mahesh Jethanandani >> mjethanandani@gmail.com >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > Mahesh Jethanandani > mjethanandani@gmail.com --Apple-Mail=_29C6CEBA-F582-42B8-98FC-55AA7CCC248E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Acee,

I realize that = the last e-mail did not help. So let me see if this is any = better.

If I = understand you correctly, you are suggesting that securing BGP with MD5 = and TCP-AO is adequately documented, and I agree. We just need a YANG = model (in a different document) that defines groupings for them such = that the BGP model can use them. BTW, work has started in TCPM to define = just that model, just that it is still an I-D, and not a WG document. = That puts BGP YANG model in a downrev with that draft. If at the time of = publication, the draft has not made progress, IDR will have to make a = decision of whether they want to keep that dependency or push support = for secure sessions out into a -bis document.

To the question of IPsec, and whether = we should support it or not, as I said, I will let Jeff comment. But = what kind of documentation are you hoping for? Isn=E2=80=99t it just a = question of giving IKE the parameters it needs to setup a IPsec tunnel? = If we decide to support it, i2nsf WG has been working on an IKE model, = as I just learnt, complete with re-keying, which with a few changes = could be used by the BGP model.

Cheers.

On Dec = 13, 2019, at 10:47 AM, Acee Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> = wrote:

Hi Mahesh, 

=EF=BB=BFOn 12/10/19, 8:41 PM, = "Mahesh Jethanandani" <mjethanandani@gmail.com> wrote:



On Dec 10, 2019, at 5:29 PM, Acee = Lindem (acee) <acee@cisco.com> wrote:

Hi = Mahesh, 

On 12/10/19, 8:19 PM, "Mahesh Jethanandani" = <mjethanandani@gmail.com> wrote:

  Hi Acee,

On Dec 10, 2019, at 5:10 PM, Acee Lindem (acee) = <acee@cisco.com> = wrote:

Hi Mahesh, 
I assume by = IPsec, you mean transport mode IPsec.

  Yes. The assumption is that the underlying = transport is secured using IPsec, and the model provides (if needed) key = parameters needed to kick off the IKE to setup the SA in IPsec.

  HTH.

Well it doesn't help at all.... Normally, the usage of IPsec = (AH, ESP, algorithms, key exchange, etc.) would be specified in some = document. For example, IPsec usage by OSPFv3 is specified in RFC 4552. = Granted, it is a lot simpler for BGP than OSPFv3 since BGP is strictly = P2P but specification would still seem to necessary. 

   You are right. It should be some document. = That document in my mind is the YANG model for IPsec/IKE, something we = need to ask the SEC ADs about. You would agree that what needs to be = defined is not BGP specific, and therefore does not belong in the BGP = model.

   Much like TCP-AO and TCP-MD5 I expect this = other document to define a grouping that the BGP model imports and uses = to define what is needed to setup IPsec.

Actually I disagree with you - TCP MD5 and TCP-AO are more = than adequately documented. 

  MD5 - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc2385/
  TCP-AO - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc5925/

It is only IPsec transport mode = that isn't described. Also, I don't know of anyone who supports this so = I'm wondering why it is in the discussion for this version of the BGP = YANG model.

Thanks,
Acee


   Cheers.


Thanks,
Acee


For IPsec protection of BGP, where are the = details specified? 
Thanks,
Acee

On = 12/10/19, 7:35 PM, "Idr on behalf of Mahesh Jethanandani" <idr-bounces@ietf.org = on behalf of mjethanandani@gmail.com> wrote:

 This is the second thread in the list of issues that = were discussed in IETF 106 w.r.t. to BGP YANG model. This particular = thread is to discuss the issue of defining how BGP sessions are going to = be secured.

 As stated in Singapore, = the model is being defined to secure BGP sessions using 
 - TCP = AO
 - TCP MD5
 - IPSec

 In case there was a question of why MD5, = it is because there are existing implementations that are choosing to = stay with MD5, regardless of the issues that have been raised about MD5. = The model therefore has to support such implementations.
 The model will use the ietf-key-chain model=E2=80=99s = (RFC 8177) key-chain-ref to refer to an instance of the key chain. By = doing that it will make use of the key rollover capability defined in = that model, and for static key configuration by setting the end time to = infinite in the key chain. The BGP model will leave the case of IPSec as = TBD for now, and fill it when/if the IPSec YANG model is defined.

 Questions/Concerns?

 Mahesh Jethanandani
 mjethanandani@gmail.com



 _______________________________________________
 Idr mailing list
 Idr@ietf.org
 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr


  Mahesh = Jethanandani
  mjethanandani@gmail.com






   Mahesh = Jethanandani
   mjethanandani@gmail.com

= --Apple-Mail=_29C6CEBA-F582-42B8-98FC-55AA7CCC248E-- From nobody Sun Dec 15 16:50:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15011120059 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2019 16:50:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KwTQGaHZzvWb for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2019 16:50:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 414D612004A for ; 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BGP sessions (Issue#41) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 18:43:46 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D54ACB3D-458A-45D0-9488-61FF6F3DA4A5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Qin > On Dec 15, 2019, at 4:50 PM, Qin Wu wrote: >=20 > [Qin] Mahesh, I believe you are referring to KARP working group = instead of I2NSF working group. > which with a few changes could be used by the BGP model. No, I am referring to i2nsf group. KARP concluded quite some time ago, = and the document are not active anymore. For i2nsf, I am referring to = this specific document and this particular section. = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-i2nsf-sdn-ipsec-flow-protection-07#= appendix-B = Thanks. Mahesh Jethanandani mjethanandani@gmail.com --Apple-Mail=_D54ACB3D-458A-45D0-9488-61FF6F3DA4A5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Qin

On Dec 15, 2019, at 4:50 PM, Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com> = wrote:

[Qin] Mahesh, I believe you are referring = to KARP working group instead of I2NSF working group.
which with a few changes could be used by the = BGP model.

No, = I am referring to i2nsf group. KARP concluded quite some time ago, and = the document are not active anymore. For i2nsf, I am referring to this = specific document and this particular section.


Thanks.

Mahesh Jethanandani
mjethanandani@gmail.com



= --Apple-Mail=_D54ACB3D-458A-45D0-9488-61FF6F3DA4A5-- From nobody Tue Dec 17 13:14:42 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D48EA12086A for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 13:14:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fyzj4jPGIPOQ for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 13:14:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86A29120077 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 13:14:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id B9BB71E2F6; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 16:19:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 16:19:07 -0500 From: Jeffrey Haas To: Mahesh Jethanandani Cc: Jared Mauch , idr@ietf.org Message-ID: <20191217211907.GB4858@pfrc.org> References: <10BD8EDF-6881-4244-A406-0C75BA97695D@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <10BD8EDF-6881-4244-A406-0C75BA97695D@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Securing BGP sessions (Issue#41) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 21:14:41 -0000 Mahesh, On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 05:21:40PM -0800, Mahesh Jethanandani wrote: > > On Dec 10, 2019, at 4:51 PM, Jared Mauch wrote: > > The other thing is most people just want transport integrity, not privacy. > > Not securing the BGP session is certainly an option. What's intended here by Jared, I think, is that AH without ESP is fine. -- Jeff From nobody Tue Dec 17 13:18:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAD47120077 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 13:18:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f0KeLs6Tq1o8 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 13:18:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8C23120639 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 13:18:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C97021E2F6; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 16:23:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 16:23:12 -0500 From: Jeffrey Haas To: Mahesh Jethanandani Cc: "Acee Lindem (acee)" , "idr@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20191217212312.GC4858@pfrc.org> References: <68B00DBF-3590-4ECE-8028-301643B9E49E@cisco.com> <91B63CF9-B92B-4D14-98CA-EBC865999B08@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] Securing BGP sessions (Issue#41) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 21:18:48 -0000 On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 03:09:32PM -0800, Mahesh Jethanandani wrote: > > On Dec 13, 2019, at 10:47 AM, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: > > It is only IPsec transport mode that isn't described. Also, I don't know of anyone who supports this so I'm wondering why it is in the discussion for this version of the BGP YANG model. > > I will let Jeff comment on this. In Junos, Transport mode for ipsec for BGP: https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/junos/topics/reference/configuration-statement/ipsec-sa-edit-protocols-bgp.html https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/junos/topics/topic-map/ip_security.html While it's a valid observation that ISPs don't typically deploy IPsec at ASBRs, this type of security is often used for BGP IPsec VPNs. -- Jeff From nobody Tue Dec 17 14:05:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65814120044; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 14:05:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hViB_2AHwa1I; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 14:05:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 236F612004D; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 14:05:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2C54D1E2F6; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 17:09:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 17:09:36 -0500 From: Jeffrey Haas To: Alvaro Retana Cc: Christoph Loibl , draft-ietf-idr-rfc5575bis@ietf.org, idr-chairs@ietf.org, "idr@ietf. org" Message-ID: <20191217220936.GE4858@pfrc.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] AD Review of draft-ietf-idr-rfc5575bis-17 -> Updated Version -18 and Flowspec v6 X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 22:05:12 -0000 [Speaking as an implementor rather than one of the document authors.] Alvaro, On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 11:38:57AM -0800, Alvaro Retana wrote: > On November 4, 2019 at 2:23:41 PM, Christoph Loibl > [major] This is the new text from -18: > > 255 This NLRI information is encoded using MP_REACH_NLRI and > 256 MP_UNREACH_NLRI attributes as defined in [RFC4760]. Whenever the > 257 corresponding application does not require Next Hop information, this > 258 shall be encoded as a 0-octet length Next Hop in the MP_REACH_NLRI > 259 attribute (if a non 0-octet Next Hop is present it should be ignored > 260 on receipt). > > I think I get it: the Next Hop is not needed -- so it is either not > present (0-octet length) or ignored. Is that it? > > What is confusing me is the part about "Whenever the corresponding > application does not require Next Hop information", because it sounds > as if there are cases when the Next Hop is needed...but then it is > ignored anyway. > > I looked in rfc4760/rfc4271, but they both talk about forwarding to > the Next Hop, and not about cases where it is not needed (or at least > I didn't find that). IOW, the use defined here is specific to the FS > AFI/SAFI pair. The specification of the use (or not) or the Next Hop > should then be a lot clearer, and Normative. The missing detail here, and I'm unclear what should be done about it, is the following: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-redirect-ip-00 Early versions of the redirect-ip draft encoded the destination to forward the traffic to in the BGP MP-nexthop field. (Remember, flowspec is sent as a MP_REACH/UNREACH_NLRI.) Later versions of the draft move to BGP extended communities to encode that. However, there's shipping code from at least one vendor (maybe two) that does redirect-ip in that flavor. > SUGGESTION> > This NLRI information is encoded using MP_REACH_NLRI and MP_UNREACH_NLRI > attributes as defined in [RFC4760]. When advertising Flow Specifications, > the Length of Next Hop Network Address SHOULD be set to 0. The Network > Address of Next Hop field MUST be ignored. I think that's safe for the above. > > 325 4.2. NLRI Value Encoding > ... > > 338 Flow Specification components must follow strict type ordering by > > 339 increasing numerical order. A given component type may (exactly > > 340 once) or may not be present in the specification. If present, it > > 341 MUST precede any component of higher numeric type value. > > > > [major] What should happen if a component appears more than once? IMO, it should be treated as a semantic error and treat-as-withdraw should be exercised per RFC 7606. > > [major] What should happen if the order is not maintained? There are one of two lines we could draw: 1. BGP-LS treats such misordering, IIRC, as an error. 2. If the NLRI is otherwise valid, the receiver MUST sort it appropriately. The underlying issue is that comparability of NLRI (is this the same route?) is compromised if you don't send it the same way from one BGP speaker to another consistently. And even then, you have issues in circumstances where the same semantic filter is sent with two distinct encodings. E.g.: R1 sends to R2 and R3 some flowspec NLRI N1. R2 sends N1 to R4. R3 sends N1' to R4. R4 now has N1 and N1', each the same filtering semantics, but different encodings. It now has two different routes. It also route selects them differently based on the route selection rules. > > > > <-- *** Authors *** > > Tracked via issue #19: https://github.com/stoffi92/rfc5575bis/issues/19 > > > > Basically if the NLRI is not encoded to specification we have a malformed > > NLRI (most probably the BGP NLRI parser will throw an exception on the > > implementation). I am not sure if this needs to be made explicit. - But I can > > make this explicit. > > --> > > The question is: what should the implementation do in response to the > exception? Should it reset the session? Should it ignore the Update? > Should it disable the AFI/SAFI? Should it only consider the first > component (if it appears more than once)? Something else? > > I looked at rfc4760/rfc7606, but didn't find anything that looked to > me explicitly as corresponding to a Malformed NLRI...but rfc4760 does > specify "AFI/SAFI disable": > > If a BGP speaker receives from a neighbor an UPDATE message that > contains the MP_REACH_NLRI or MP_UNREACH_NLRI attribute, and if the > speaker determines that the attribute is incorrect, the speaker MUST > delete all the BGP routes received from that neighbor whose AFI/SAFI > is the same as the one carried in the incorrect MP_REACH_NLRI or > MP_UNREACH_NLRI attribute. For the duration of the BGP session over > which the UPDATE message was received, the speaker then SHOULD ignore > all the subsequent routes with that AFI/SAFI received over that > session. > > The result is then that FS (including the rules/actions already > received) would now not be used. Personal opinion: Disabling the > AFI/SAFI can be worse than resetting the session because there's no > indication to the sender that anything is wrong. FWIW, I'm not actually aware of an implementation that does the "soft-down" behavior mentioned above. The intent was that if you can still parse the location of BGP frames within the TCP stream, that you could take out one AFI/SAFI without necessarily impacting other AFI/SAFI over the same BGP session. However, the only fix is to eventually bounce the session as a reset if you implemented such a thing. > If AFI/SAFI disable is the expected behavior for both out-of-order and > duplicate components, then nothing else is needed. A note in 10 > would be nice but not necessary. > > > ... > > 542 4.2.12. Type 12 - Fragment > ... > > 548 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 > > 549 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ > > 550 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |LF |FF |IsF|DF | > > 551 +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ > ... > > [major] The operation is not specified. Is this also an (operator,bitmask) > > pair, or just 8 bits indicating the values? Can multiple bits be set at the > > same time? What fields in the IP header do these map to? RFC 791 (IP) section 3.1, "Flags". It's operator, mask, as is clearly in that section. (If you're not seeing it, you have a mismatch vs. draft-18) > > > > <-- *** Authors *** > > Tracked via issue #40: https://github.com/stoffi92/rfc5575bis/issues/40 > > Commit mention: https://github.com/stoffi92/rfc5575bis/commit/f078e919842330d670bc195276ead7bdc05a3351 > > > > Added the text to the bit-descriptions and IP-header fields - And an example > > using the bitmask operator. > > --> > > The example is for a "matching packet with DF bit set or First > Fragments", which answers the question above about whether multiple > bits can be set -- yes. What is still not specified is that in the > case of multiple bits set, an OR operation is expected. I think your point here is the "Christmas tree" attack. In the above bit sets, LF is (I believe) the only option that doesn't make sense when the other 3 may be set. With respect to its behavior, one option is "this doesn't make sense, and thus cannot match a packet". And thus it's a very odd way to encode a NOP. > > <-- *** Authors *** > > Tracked via issue #99: https://github.com/stoffi92/rfc5575bis/issues/99 > > > > This is not to be solved within this document. I note that I should propose a > > update to RFC7153 to cleanup the registry independently. - As noticed moving > > the values around is not an option. > > --> > > So, are you working on this already? ;-) I'd suggest sanctioning the AD that let this go through in the first place. :-) More seriously, my suggestion is to remove any commentary about the registry code point intents. It's a number. It got used in the wrong way for reasons that are no longer important. Let the chairs request the cleanup. > 1147 11. Future NLRI Extensions > > 1149 Future Flow Specification extensions may introduce new Flow > 1150 Specification components. In order to facilitate such extensions of > 1151 the Flow Specification NLRI, in addition to the cases described in > 1152 [RFC7606], if BGP encounters an unknown Flow Specification component > 1153 in an UPDATE message, it SHOULD also treat this message as Treat-as- > 1154 withdraw as specified in [RFC7606] Section 2. > > [minor] This paragraph describes an error condition, so maybe it belongs in 10. > > [major] rfc7606/3 reads: > > j. Finally, we observe that in order to use the approach of "treat- > as-withdraw", the entire NLRI field and/or the MP_REACH_NLRI and > MP_UNREACH_NLRI attributes need to be successfully parsed -- what > this entails is discussed in more detail in Section 5. If this > is not possible, the procedures of [RFC4271] and/or [RFC4760] > continue to apply, meaning that the "session reset" approach (or > the "AFI/SAFI disable" approach) MUST be followed. > > If an unknown Flow Specification component exists, then the entire > NLRI cannot be "successfully parsed"...which results in not being able > to use treat-as-withdraw. The text above leaves us with AFI/SAFI > disable, which is not extension-friendly. This is exactly my largest concern about flowspec right now. There is no safe way to extend the spec at this point. There are two options available to us, IMO: 1. Flowspec v2, which we stalled out until 5575bis was done. 2. We decide that for 5575-bis that all future extensions MUST be encoded with a TLV format (length being mandatory). And perhaps even protect a compliant extension with a capability. This is a major change, but perhaps provides an upgrade path without waiting on v2. > > NEW (suggestion)> > An advertisement containing an unknown Flow Specification component > should be discarded as specified in Section 5.4 of [RFC7606]. You can't parse it, therefore it's malformed. -- Jeff From nobody Tue Dec 17 21:21:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 833CE120892 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 21:21:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jNYnmA1-pmOR for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 21:21:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd44.google.com (mail-io1-xd44.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d44]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F33D01200A1 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 21:21:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd44.google.com with SMTP id x1so646241iop.7 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 21:21:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8H8XCU332Uvw2rpkzuD9DBrqb6b5i378i7x/1bUCDlQ=; b=pMA4TB2Prl1AstD6+9vHGLuz+5nI7HAR9DBGVV7+6emZawPPSOmHARQnK8XuIEWvRR 4khgwyqPYYbaGbPdzI/y4nIlqiONhFZDUYQmi9gS2xGxefX+nU6GXoOIlVGEA6YxkHKy LT55vR4B4L+4TpDwYiSR+5eW394dDVwpVTnM023l2ZFO0yhKAaF++bY6Sn6fV+MCOvfl I8wzs23hGTqAFJFL51eTL5uMFydlAbDTZ8djeyhwC+bUKwDlcozJ2cqnKbKOG2Ao2npV FpeWxdXbYTrC9K3AUkns7doXHgi17A53q/YG9RerUAIRqtVg25rAqJtMLDwSINN6KcCO prKw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8H8XCU332Uvw2rpkzuD9DBrqb6b5i378i7x/1bUCDlQ=; b=Lxpzn8y97w1SndWp0cFUzbSNHWoZ/pUQCrGfRiRL+JHW3VcbWkA/YNY/sVkpsb3JAl Wqb1VDXYZn0UaeQapyY+wA7MAeWskyCrTkOCEL2RNPkIcQ3i0jVj5VOmal69XwFXE36h C+TZRYrFLzNutp43MBntJDaJWneWILbVwd938Fwhn0dGcgBZjkEo2qURzy2xfTALyNsX zSQ401N0T1EWQTovS2Lw7xkX1WndTOHG+G0RPlGvFZUET1zF1z5f7NJSFKIzAfX4yd5j K209aj38rF/N+PcAbCItLX2VEzLGY0+bsHP951eZglHpL7VWRbWQa8PVpFmnsxJV8Gly gWCw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVMPZsrMNxpJQ5bMI2/gLojV1YdMp7h6u8G+FyL2Ll/GYEt3H1F RM/xDMjRlReFeDxKt5Wdv6WP2RKqvaWnExaEFWI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz6DRt9MVKuFrxqNO2tz0HTsGMGWelFYY+rQcbDCbM6Mly3I5imPAknuO9m3PxixHWm090xSN3i/EsMtoVaecE= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:fb19:: with SMTP id h25mr315770iog.40.1576646466962; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 21:21:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Donald Eastlake Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 00:20:55 -0500 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: "idr@ietf. org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-l2vpn-12 X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 05:21:09 -0000 Hi Robert, First, I want to thank you for your technical feedback which has contributed significantly to the improvement of this draft. On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 9:10 AM Robert Raszuk wrote: > > Dear WG, > > ... > > So far flowspec 5575 and 5575bis focused on solving one real problem > - mitigation of DDoS attacks which we are all experiencing daily with > different strength. > > With that SAFI 133 and 134 have consistently defined types to > describe L3 packets match criteria. > > I do not understand why now we are to take SAFI 134 and load 13 new > types on it to define completely irrelevant to FlowSpec original goal > L2 packet match criteria. The way I view this is from the point inside a box where you have parsed some headers and want to defend against traffic whose source might be more distributed or less distributed. Abusive traffic might be identifiable by a nested L2 header. And, while it is true that if you are inside a classic IP router, the outer L2 header of received traffic should have been discarded, most boxes today are switches and useful outer L2 header information could be available. If you are worried about the number of component types, I now think they should be in a separate registry anyway. (Until Flowspec v2, they can't be added to the existing/proposed IPv4/IPv6 registries anyway.) > Yes implementation may use AFI 25 and SAFI 134 to distinguish it > from AFI 1 or 2 and SAFI 134, but it is introducing pure mess and > architecturally it is just ugly. I think beauty and ugliness are in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I do not see an L2 header bit as more ugly or more beautiful than an L3 or L4 or L5 header bit. > Moreover the draft in question while defining the protocol extension > fails to identify even a single valid use case for it. L2 VPNs are > usually private and I am not sure about others but I never seen a > L2VPN DDoS other then BPDUs on LAN's spanning tree. I am sure using > BGP to mitigate those type of attacks is an innovative one. As above, one use case is to match nested L2 addresses as in draft-ietf-idr-nvo3-flowspec. Another is to match an outer L2 in the case of a box that is not always acting as a classic L3 router. > So clearly this has nothing to do with DDoS mitigation, and this is > pure BGP policy push extension. I disagree. > The draft also skips over fundamental reason why we have SAFI 134 in > the first place. When we run L3VPNs customer may detect a DDoS and > signal with SAFI 133 to a PE about it then PE carries it within SAFI > 134 across all PEs (modulo RTC) where filters may be installed in > proper VPNs or pushed again with SAFI 133 to remote CEs. > > Here in L2VPN what protocol will be used to signal DDoS between PE & > CE ? Email ? I'm not sure why there is much difference in this aspect. Although not presently in the draft, as I mentioned verbally during my presentation and as I also had in a line on one slide, AFI=6/SAFI=133 seems right for L2 non-VPN flowspec, for example between customer and PE. > > ... > > I would like to reiterate Acee's question - Do we really need to put > into BGP all possible packet formats to transport filters with it > around ? This draft does not put all possible packet formats into BGP. Seems to me that L2 Ethernet headers are very common in current networks and I think it is reasonable to be able to handle them with flowspec filter and action types. > Even if some will say - sure - please separate this via new > extension and new name leaving original FlowSpec to at least have > the chance to do what it intended to do in the first place. As far as I can see, the specification of new AFI/SAFI pairs, regardless of what "name" they use, does not in any way interfere with the use of "original FlowSpec" and its AFI/SAFI pairs. Thanks, Donald =============================== Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-333-2270 (cell) 2386 Panoramic Circle, Apopka, FL 32703 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com > Kind regards, > Robert From nobody Tue Dec 17 23:11:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C29C1208D1; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 23:11:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gp0e5hb1TNc8; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 23:11:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.hated.at (mail.hated.at [IPv6:2001:858:2:8::235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A572F1200E9; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 23:11:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from 80-110-104-164.cgn.dynamic.surfer.at ([80.110.104.164] helo=[192.168.66.207]) by mail.hated.at with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ihTKd-00035c-0Y; Wed, 18 Dec 2019 08:01:18 +0100 From: Christoph Loibl Message-Id: <44C0D224-1C71-4B88-B3D9-A12F417AD3F0@tix.at> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A2EA93AC-87D6-4B57-AC27-0730DB07AE91" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.40.2.2.4\)) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 08:11:37 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20191217220936.GE4858@pfrc.org> Cc: Alvaro Retana , draft-ietf-idr-rfc5575bis@ietf.org, idr-chairs@ietf.org, "idr@ietf. org" To: Jeffrey Haas References: <20191217220936.GE4858@pfrc.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.40.2.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] AD Review of draft-ietf-idr-rfc5575bis-17 -> Updated Version -18 and Flowspec v6 X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 07:11:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A2EA93AC-87D6-4B57-AC27-0730DB07AE91 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Jeffrey, Alvaro! I only pick out this single issue from the complete list, because I do = not 100% agree with this statement: > On 17.12.2019, at 23:09, Jeffrey Haas wrote: >=20 >> If an unknown Flow Specification component exists, then the entire >> NLRI cannot be "successfully parsed"...which results in not being = able >> to use treat-as-withdraw. The text above leaves us with AFI/SAFI >> disable, which is not extension-friendly. >=20 > This is exactly my largest concern about flowspec right now. There is = no > safe way to extend the spec at this point. >=20 > There are two options available to us, IMO: > 1. Flowspec v2, which we stalled out until 5575bis was done. > 2. We decide that for 5575-bis that all future extensions MUST be = encoded > with a TLV format (length being mandatory). And perhaps even protect = a > compliant extension with a capability. This is a major change, but = perhaps > provides an upgrade path without waiting on v2. >>=20 >> NEW (suggestion)> >> An advertisement containing an unknown Flow Specification = component >> should be discarded as specified in Section 5.4 of [RFC7606]. >=20 > You can't parse it, therefore it's malformed. In case of an unknown flowspec component the parser can run until = decoding the component type (always the first byte of the component). = When it reads a unknown type-value it can easily jump over the remaining = bytes of the entire NLRI (the length of the the complete NLRI is encoded = in the first bytes of the NLRI) without needing to understand what is in = there, because it should treat it as withdraw. I do not see the problem. = It is supposed to =E2=80=9Cignore=E2=80=9D the entire NLRI not only a = single component of it.=20 Cheers Christoph --=20 Christoph Loibl c@tix.at | CL8-RIPE | PGP-Key-ID: 0x4B2C0055 | http://www.nextlayer.at --Apple-Mail=_A2EA93AC-87D6-4B57-AC27-0730DB07AE91 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Jeffrey, Alvaro!

I = only pick out this single issue from the complete list, because I do not = 100% agree with this statement:


On = 17.12.2019, at 23:09, Jeffrey Haas <jhaas@pfrc.org> wrote:

If an = unknown Flow Specification component exists, then the entire
NLRI cannot be "successfully parsed"...which results in not = being able
to use treat-as-withdraw.  The text above = leaves us with AFI/SAFI
disable, which is not = extension-friendly.

This is exactly my largest concern about flowspec right now. =  There is no
safe way to extend the spec at this point.

There are two = options available to us, IMO:
1. Flowspec v2, which we stalled out until 5575bis was = done.
2. We decide = that for 5575-bis that all future extensions MUST be encoded
with a TLV = format (length being mandatory).  And perhaps even protect = a
compliant = extension with a capability.  This is a major change, but = perhaps
provides an = upgrade path without waiting on v2.

NEW = (suggestion)>
   An advertisement containing = an unknown Flow Specification component
should be = discarded as specified in Section 5.4 of [RFC7606].

You can't parse it, therefore it's malformed.

In = case of an unknown flowspec component the parser can run until decoding = the component type (always the first byte of the component). When it = reads a unknown type-value it can easily jump over the remaining bytes = of the entire NLRI (the length of the the complete NLRI is encoded in = the first bytes of the NLRI) without needing to understand what is in = there, because it should treat it as withdraw. I do not see the problem. = It is supposed to =E2=80=9Cignore=E2=80=9D the entire NLRI not only a = single component of it. 

Cheers
Christoph

-- 
Christoph = Loibl
c@tix.at | CL8-RIPE | PGP-Key-ID: 0x4B2C0055 = | http://www.nextlayer.at

= --Apple-Mail=_A2EA93AC-87D6-4B57-AC27-0730DB07AE91-- From nobody Wed Dec 18 04:08:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F86312004C; Wed, 18 Dec 2019 04:08:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R5z8qlSwhJhm; Wed, 18 Dec 2019 04:08:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2707120919; Wed, 18 Dec 2019 04:08:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 125431E2F6; Wed, 18 Dec 2019 07:12:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 07:12:35 -0500 From: Jeffrey Haas To: Christoph Loibl Cc: Alvaro Retana , draft-ietf-idr-rfc5575bis@ietf.org, idr-chairs@ietf.org, "idr@ietf. org" Message-ID: <20191218121235.GF4858@pfrc.org> References: <20191217220936.GE4858@pfrc.org> <44C0D224-1C71-4B88-B3D9-A12F417AD3F0@tix.at> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <44C0D224-1C71-4B88-B3D9-A12F417AD3F0@tix.at> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] AD Review of draft-ietf-idr-rfc5575bis-17 -> Updated Version -18 and Flowspec v6 X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 12:08:08 -0000 On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 08:11:37AM +0100, Christoph Loibl wrote: > Hi Jeffrey, Alvaro! > > I only pick out this single issue from the complete list, because I do not 100% agree with this statement: > > > > On 17.12.2019, at 23:09, Jeffrey Haas wrote: > > > >> If an unknown Flow Specification component exists, then the entire > >> NLRI cannot be "successfully parsed"...which results in not being able > >> to use treat-as-withdraw. The text above leaves us with AFI/SAFI > >> disable, which is not extension-friendly. > > > > This is exactly my largest concern about flowspec right now. There is no > > safe way to extend the spec at this point. > > > > There are two options available to us, IMO: > > 1. Flowspec v2, which we stalled out until 5575bis was done. > > 2. We decide that for 5575-bis that all future extensions MUST be encoded > > with a TLV format (length being mandatory). And perhaps even protect a > > compliant extension with a capability. This is a major change, but perhaps > > provides an upgrade path without waiting on v2. > >> > >> NEW (suggestion)> > >> An advertisement containing an unknown Flow Specification component > >> should be discarded as specified in Section 5.4 of [RFC7606]. > > > > You can't parse it, therefore it's malformed. > > In case of an unknown flowspec component the parser can run until decoding the component type (always the first byte of the component). When it reads a unknown type-value it can easily jump over the remaining bytes of the entire NLRI (the length of the the complete NLRI is encoded in the first bytes of the NLRI) without needing to understand what is in there, because it should treat it as withdraw. I do not see the problem. It is supposed to “ignore” the entire NLRI not only a single component of it. Sigh. Into example-land we go: You receive the following byte-stream as NLRI in a single BGP PDU: NLRI-1, length X components 1,2,3 NLRI-2, length Y components 1,2,3,?,?,? NLRI-3, length Z components 1,2,3 In the case of NLRI-1,3 if you had received these individually, you'd know they were correct because the implementation understands them. In NLRI-2, you don't know what some of the components are starting at first ?. The _best_ you can do in these circumstances is walk the list of NLRI by length and see if you can arrive at NLRI boundaries and have a valid BGP Update PDU. However, you also don't know if you actually have an NLRI-3 or not. It might actually be a random byte stream that just happens to parse as an NLRI and accidentally lands on a packet boundary. NLRI-2 may be corrupt and the length mis-calculated. We have seen these bugs before, even in simple RFC 4271 PDUs. -- Jeff From nobody Wed Dec 18 08:24:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 318C61209BD; Wed, 18 Dec 2019 08:24:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NF4tit_wVDvs; Wed, 18 Dec 2019 08:24:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ed1-x543.google.com (mail-ed1-x543.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::543]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 604FA1209F9; Wed, 18 Dec 2019 08:24:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ed1-x543.google.com with SMTP id i16so2143437edr.5; Wed, 18 Dec 2019 08:24:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qW7SEToyVXLOGzSRZHQ7Cab5TKqD3Pbp80Eov55X5r8=; b=fjM9GpTIecFlYslHDNLTbTHFnLehSP/VDP5IvCb56m3iV0S343uuU9SQj0FXULsuBi mNEihSZYKhCCKeZ4d5xcEC/7+AwPqzsPRuoLEeFulq0Pj6msnjc1AC+kmrBU0zKLI4/i wD0pe7uIT/5P2Vs+iZQIf6PXMqJUg1YCzbmQiyisv2yma1HUssWyQa6xKlzMvRtxPLZX 0ZT/K8tOvTnONH/vWRi1qzDFqI/KqzFY2sNw/3nwgrGZZlC2F9wDUJx/lrfaNJHA6Huy 1X5AtIWpPec7rQ4CwExvsxWJhz3e4GYLN4mzXWzn9i0hDsOcWrd8BxVEbyNDdwYnNr2s FiBA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qW7SEToyVXLOGzSRZHQ7Cab5TKqD3Pbp80Eov55X5r8=; b=YMExI/9EvxkZhX7gkvUzQuc6ISUs8+KwcsR1R8tgWIM8YBCVBkMNIq0UVNhUX3Ixd4 EskmCO7byvWttsw/mCj2RovDjhmG6dqRaX6BewxZITfHXPI4x6+uiQZt9Qg6czE/Pgqj jKBMmmYyUodZoj6lWsjNA+oHNqF1d+jUzKKhGx143JoQGYUc32kVBCA7Oy7KHPZR8wHD Avq+s6G1runQBYk1zoV9yad3x8P4QYFOAPzyd+kSeOUi6OOR6E5T2YOVMIUnZgh58NgI Ct9D6lLRw1Dda/w+Jr0P3MgsXfEKHb6d5Eg/My1T/mi06gOKrC9a0A70t01Nvb684bu5 fVJA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWHlsbElPgExYhQ8gXVUv1lQrI0WbViBsRy3yaY8bhmQBrDHfRG scRyQV42OViBzWZZ/eCnt/ZWe3VLi6uKnSwZpT8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxpnY0zO7s3Lea1QktiIysLFqNGRvDEeTj4qKZbLSJGvE8rbFHT8gAWr8n9t6bD7gcxw2flfCL72/7V0jE/mfA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:1777:: with SMTP id da23mr3350233edb.292.1576685826918; Wed, 18 Dec 2019 08:17:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 18 Dec 2019 08:17:05 -0800 From: Alvaro Retana In-Reply-To: <20191218121235.GF4858@pfrc.org> References: <20191217220936.GE4858@pfrc.org> <44C0D224-1C71-4B88-B3D9-A12F417AD3F0@tix.at> <20191218121235.GF4858@pfrc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 08:17:05 -0800 Message-ID: To: Jeffrey Haas , Christoph Loibl Cc: idr-chairs@ietf.org, "idr@ietf. org" , draft-ietf-idr-rfc5575bis@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] AD Review of draft-ietf-idr-rfc5575bis-17 -> Updated Version -18 and Flowspec v6 X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 16:24:13 -0000 On December 18, 2019 at 7:08:06 AM, Jeffrey Haas wrote: Jeff/Christoph: Hi! As I read the responses it sounded to me as if we were all going in the same direction: discard if an unknown component is found. =C2=A0But reading more into it, I think we're talking about different cases... > On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 08:11:37AM +0100, Christoph Loibl wrote: ... > > > On 17.12.2019, at 23:09, Jeffrey Haas wrote: > > > > > > > If an unknown Flow Specification component exists, then the entire > > > > NLRI cannot be "successfully parsed"...which results in not being a= ble > > > > to use treat-as-withdraw. The text above leaves us with AFI/SAFI > > > > disable, which is not extension-friendly. > > > > > > This is exactly my largest concern about flowspec right now. There is= no > > > safe way to extend the spec at this point. ... > > > > NEW (suggestion)> > > > > An advertisement containing an unknown Flow Specification component > > > > should be discarded as specified in Section 5.4 of [RFC7606]. > > > > > > You can't parse it, therefore it's malformed. Jeff: I interpreted this response as agreeing that if the NLRI can't be parsed then it should be discarded (even maybe buying the Typed NLRI argument). =C2=A0It sounds like we're agreeing. =C2=A0Is that true? > > In case of an unknown flowspec component the parser can run until decod= ing > > the component type (always the first byte of the component). When it re= ads > > a unknown type-value it can easily jump over the remaining bytes of the > > entire NLRI (the length of the the complete NLRI is encoded in the firs= t > > bytes of the NLRI) without needing to understand what is in there, beca= use > > it should treat it as withdraw. I do not see the problem. It is suppose= d to > > =E2=80=9Cignore=E2=80=9D the entire NLRI not only a single component of= it. Christoph: It seems to me that we're getting to the same behavior: I call it "discard", you call it "treat it as withdraw...=E2=80=9Cignore=E2= =80=9D". While discarding, ignoring and treat-as-withdraw are different things, the effect seems to be the same: we won't use the NLRI. =C2=A0We can find the right words... =C2=A0Do you also think we're going in the same direction? > Sigh. Into example-land we go: > > You receive the following byte-stream as NLRI in a single BGP PDU: > NLRI-1, length X components 1,2,3 > NLRI-2, length Y components 1,2,3,?,?,? > NLRI-3, length Z components 1,2,3 > > In the case of NLRI-1,3 if you had received these individually, you'd kno= w > they were correct because the implementation understands them. > > In NLRI-2, you don't know what some of the components are starting at fir= st ?. > > The _best_ you can do in these circumstances is walk the list of NLRI by > length and see if you can arrive at NLRI boundaries and have a valid BGP > Update PDU. > > However, you also don't know if you actually have an NLRI-3 or not. It > might actually be a random byte stream that just happens to parse as an N= LRI > and accidentally lands on a packet boundary. NLRI-2 may be corrupt and th= e > length mis-calculated. > > We have seen these bugs before, even in simple RFC 4271 PDUs. In theory, if the length is set correctly, and the unknown components are "well behaved" (i.e. they are actually correct, the receiver just doesn't understand them), then it seems to me that we could safely just discard NLRI-2. =C2=A0In theory... I think that we are talking about two different actions when bumping into an unknown component: discarding an NLRI in the list (e.g. just NLRI-2 above), vs discarding the whole advertisement (i.e. all NLRIs to protect against potential bugs). Going back to rfc7606/=C2=A73, it talks about parsing the "entire NLRI field" (not just a single entry). =C2=A0But the Typed NLRI behavior (rfc7606/=C2=A75.4) talks about discarding "routes with unrecognized NLRI types" (not the entire advertisement). Personal opinion: =C2=A0If we (WG) don't buy into the Typed NLRI-like argument, then we deal with the "entire NLRI field", but we're also stuck with AFI/SAFI disable (or session reset). =C2=A0If we buy into the Typed NLRI-like argument, then it seems like we have the option to specify either discard behavior. ??? Alvaro. From nobody Wed Dec 18 08:50:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66B561209F5; Wed, 18 Dec 2019 08:50:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t969BAFCiQkN; Wed, 18 Dec 2019 08:50:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from slice.pfrc.org (slice.pfrc.org [67.207.130.108]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B41B1208B9; Wed, 18 Dec 2019 08:50:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by slice.pfrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C10CA1E2F6; Wed, 18 Dec 2019 11:54:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 11:54:35 -0500 From: Jeffrey Haas To: Alvaro Retana Cc: Christoph Loibl , idr-chairs@ietf.org, "idr@ietf. org" , draft-ietf-idr-rfc5575bis@ietf.org Message-ID: <20191218165435.GA6488@pfrc.org> References: <20191217220936.GE4858@pfrc.org> <44C0D224-1C71-4B88-B3D9-A12F417AD3F0@tix.at> <20191218121235.GF4858@pfrc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] AD Review of draft-ietf-idr-rfc5575bis-17 -> Updated Version -18 and Flowspec v6 X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 16:50:11 -0000 Alvaro, [choosing the most terse response] On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 08:17:05AM -0800, Alvaro Retana wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 08:11:37AM +0100, Christoph Loibl wrote: > > > > You can't parse it, therefore it's malformed. > > Jeff: I interpreted this response as agreeing that if the NLRI can't > be parsed then it should be discarded (even maybe buying the Typed > NLRI argument). It sounds like we're agreeing. Is that true? [...] > Personal opinion: If we (WG) don't buy into the Typed NLRI-like > argument, then we deal with the "entire NLRI field", but we're also > stuck with AFI/SAFI disable (or session reset). If we buy into the > Typed NLRI-like argument, then it seems like we have the option to > specify either discard behavior. IMO, the typed NLRI argument was poorly thought through. It effectively devolves into a form of the issues above. The issue in both cases is that it's impossible to tell that you're dealing with garbage or not. The choice made in that section was discard with exactly the same risks I mentioned. If the WG converges on discard, so be it. If an implementation and a network roll the dice in a lucky fashion, they only encounter such issues for well-formed unknowns that are discarded. If not, they get to manually bounce their peering session. The fix for flowspec really should be flowspec v2 or capabilities based fix for later extensions. The fix for the typed NLRI is effectively similar. -- Jeff From nobody Wed Dec 18 10:11:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BFCC120A8B; Wed, 18 Dec 2019 10:11:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OlA3gjSVLla2; Wed, 18 Dec 2019 10:11:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B715120A8A; Wed, 18 Dec 2019 10:11:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id B578CF40716; Wed, 18 Dec 2019 10:10:56 -0800 (PST) To: kaduk@mit.edu, enkechen@cisco.com, jgs@juniper.net, mpradosh@yahoo.com, keyupate@cisco.com X-PHP-Originating-Script: 30:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Cc: aretana.ietf@gmail.com, iesg@ietf.org, idr@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20191218181056.B578CF40716@rfc-editor.org> Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 10:10:56 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC7606 (5941) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 18:11:16 -0000 The following errata report has been held for document update for RFC7606, "Revised Error Handling for BGP UPDATE Messages". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5941 -------------------------------------- Status: Held for Document Update Type: Editorial Reported by: Benjamin Kaduk Date Reported: 2019-12-18 Held by: Alvaro Retana (IESG) Section: 7.16 Original Text ------------- An UPDATE message with a malformed ATTR_SET attribute SHALL be handled using the approach of "treat as withdraw". Corrected Text -------------- An UPDATE message with a malformed ATTR_SET attribute SHALL be handled using the approach of "treat-as-withdraw". Notes ----- All 20 other instances of "treat-as-withdraw" in the document use the hyphenated form. -------------------------------------- RFC7606 (draft-ietf-idr-error-handling-19) -------------------------------------- Title : Revised Error Handling for BGP UPDATE Messages Publication Date : August 2015 Author(s) : E. Chen, Ed., J. Scudder, Ed., P. Mohapatra, K. Patel Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : Inter-Domain Routing Area : Routing Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Wed Dec 18 10:12:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F816120A6C for ; Wed, 18 Dec 2019 10:02:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UWx0p6WerJMO for ; Wed, 18 Dec 2019 10:02:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA244120965 for ; Wed, 18 Dec 2019 10:02:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 3A28BF40716; Wed, 18 Dec 2019 10:02:31 -0800 (PST) To: enkechen@cisco.com, jgs@juniper.net, mpradosh@yahoo.com, keyupate@cisco.com, db3546@att.com, aretana.ietf@gmail.com, martin.vigoureux@nokia.com, jgs@juniper.net, shares@ndzh.com X-PHP-Originating-Script: 30:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Cc: kaduk@mit.edu, idr@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20191218180231.3A28BF40716@rfc-editor.org> Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 10:02:31 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 10:12:55 -0800 Subject: [Idr] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC7606 (5941) X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 18:02:51 -0000 The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7606, "Revised Error Handling for BGP UPDATE Messages". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5941 -------------------------------------- Type: Editorial Reported by: Benjamin Kaduk Section: 7.16 Original Text ------------- An UPDATE message with a malformed ATTR_SET attribute SHALL be handled using the approach of "treat as withdraw". Corrected Text -------------- An UPDATE message with a malformed ATTR_SET attribute SHALL be handled using the approach of "treat-as-withdraw". Notes ----- All 20 other instances of "treat-as-withdraw" in the document use the hyphenated form. Instructions: ------------- This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC7606 (draft-ietf-idr-error-handling-19) -------------------------------------- Title : Revised Error Handling for BGP UPDATE Messages Publication Date : August 2015 Author(s) : E. Chen, Ed., J. Scudder, Ed., P. Mohapatra, K. 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Thu, 19 Dec 2019 01:05:00 +0000 From: "Acee Lindem (acee)" To: Jeffrey Haas , Mahesh Jethanandani CC: "idr@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Idr] Securing BGP sessions (Issue#41) Thread-Index: AQHVr7rd/5qGVW58hUml+zqJVoppf6e0GrwAgAAIfACACryNgIABfZ0A Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2019 01:05:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: <10BD8EDF-6881-4244-A406-0C75BA97695D@gmail.com> <20191217211907.GB4858@pfrc.org> In-Reply-To: <20191217211907.GB4858@pfrc.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=acee@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [216.161.193.50] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 76726dff-ec81-4038-a273-08d7841f7938 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB3741: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:6790; x-forefront-prvs: 0256C18696 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(39860400002)(366004)(136003)(396003)(346002)(376002)(189003)(199004)(64756008)(66946007)(66446008)(36756003)(26005)(66476007)(66556008)(110136005)(316002)(76116006)(4326008)(33656002)(6512007)(2906002)(71200400001)(478600001)(53546011)(86362001)(6506007)(4744005)(5660300002)(6486002)(2616005)(81166006)(91956017)(8676002)(8936002)(966005)(81156014)(186003); 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Sat, 21 Dec 2019 10:53:27 +0100 From: Christoph Loibl Message-Id: <51657538-DD97-497D-9D9E-D9ACDFBBB0C1@tix.at> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3AB36DA8-194A-4B56-BCD9-1922B150B21C" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.40.2.2.4\)) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 11:03:55 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: Jeffrey Haas , idr-chairs@ietf.org, "idr@ietf. org" , draft-ietf-idr-rfc5575bis@ietf.org To: Alvaro Retana References: <20191217220936.GE4858@pfrc.org> <44C0D224-1C71-4B88-B3D9-A12F417AD3F0@tix.at> <20191218121235.GF4858@pfrc.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.40.2.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Idr] AD Review of draft-ietf-idr-rfc5575bis-17 -> Updated Version -18 and Flowspec v6 X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 10:04:04 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3AB36DA8-194A-4B56-BCD9-1922B150B21C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Alvaro, > On 18.12.2019, at 17:17, Alvaro Retana wrote: >=20 >>> In case of an unknown flowspec component the parser can run until = decoding >>> the component type (always the first byte of the component). When it = reads >>> a unknown type-value it can easily jump over the remaining bytes of = the >>> entire NLRI (the length of the the complete NLRI is encoded in the = first >>> bytes of the NLRI) without needing to understand what is in there, = because >>> it should treat it as withdraw. I do not see the problem. It is = supposed to >>> =E2=80=9Cignore=E2=80=9D the entire NLRI not only a single component = of it. >=20 > Christoph: It seems to me that we're getting to the same behavior: I > call it "discard", you call it "treat it as withdraw...=E2=80=9Cignore=E2= =80=9D". > While discarding, ignoring and treat-as-withdraw are different things, > the effect seems to be the same: we won't use the NLRI. We can find > the right words... Do you also think we're going in the same > direction? I agree. I will need to collect the comments and think that I can come = up with something that is acceptable while still giving some certain = degree of flexibility to protocol extensions.=20 I already started working on all the the issues in the document you = pointed out on github: https://github.com/stoffi92/rfc5575bis = Expect a new -19 to be ready by the end of January, maybe a little = earlier. Cheers, Christoph --=20 Christoph Loibl c@tix.at | CL8-RIPE | PGP-Key-ID: 0x4B2C0055 | http://www.nextlayer.at --Apple-Mail=_3AB36DA8-194A-4B56-BCD9-1922B150B21C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Alvaro,

On 18.12.2019, at 17:17, Alvaro Retana <aretana.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

In case of an unknown = flowspec component the parser can run until decoding
the = component type (always the first byte of the component). When it = reads
a unknown type-value it can easily jump over the = remaining bytes of the
entire NLRI (the length of the the = complete NLRI is encoded in the first
bytes of the NLRI) = without needing to understand what is in there, because
it = should treat it as withdraw. I do not see the problem. It is supposed = to
=E2=80=9Cignore=E2=80=9D the entire NLRI not only a = single component of it.

Christoph: It = seems to me that we're getting to the same behavior: I
call it = "discard", you call it "treat it as withdraw...=E2=80=9Cignore=E2=80=9D".<= /span>
While = discarding, ignoring and treat-as-withdraw are different = things,
the effect = seems to be the same: we won't use the NLRI.  We can find
the right = words...  Do you also think we're going in the same
direction?

I agree. I will need to collect the comments = and think that I can come up with something that is acceptable while = still giving some certain degree of flexibility to protocol = extensions. 

I already started working on all the the issues in the = document you pointed out on github:

https://github.com/stoffi92/rfc5575bis

Expect a new -19 to be = ready by the end of January, maybe a little earlier.

Cheers,
Christoph

-- 
Christoph Loibl
c@tix.at | = CL8-RIPE | PGP-Key-ID: 0x4B2C0055 | http://www.nextlayer.at

= --Apple-Mail=_3AB36DA8-194A-4B56-BCD9-1922B150B21C-- From nobody Mon Dec 30 11:48:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietf.org Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA8A8120B55; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 11:48:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Andy Bierman via Datatracker To: Cc: idr@ietf.org, draft-ietf-idr-bgp-model.all@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.115.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Andy Bierman Message-ID: <157773531468.4577.5049465733732578910@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 11:48:34 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] Yangdoctors early review of draft-ietf-idr-bgp-model-07 X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:48:35 -0000 Reviewer: Andy Bierman Review result: On the Right Track Major issues: - The ietf-bgp module uses (legal) YANG 1.1 constructs that are not supported by available tools so it cannot be validated. The solution options are (A) rewrite the module so it does not place any definitions in the main module. Instead place all definitions in submodules. Add YANG 1.0 include-stmts as needed so pyang can validate the module (B) wait until the opensource tools properly support this YANG 1.1 usage and resubmit the module at that time - The modules import ietf-routing-policy. Version used was 2019-03-04. This module has a fatal error caused because ietf-interface-common has apparently been replaced with ietf-if-extensions@2019-11-04 leaf subinterface { type leafref { path "/if:interfaces/if:interface/if-cmn:encapsulation" + "/if-l3-vlan:dot1q-vlan" + "/if-l3-vlan:outer-tag/if-l3-vlan:vlan-id"; } The path expression is wrong. if-cmn:encapsulation is now if-ext:encapsulation. You need to check the XPath everywhere when you refactor YANG modules. - Full review of these modules is not possible at this time without proper opensource tools. Processing the YANG statements by hand is extremely difficult, given the large amount of groupings used which are spread across many modules and submodules. Minor Issues - The "clear" actions need to be specific about the exact set of objects that are affected. The value of each object once it is cleared needs to be specified in every object that is affected by the action. Impact on operations should be explained in each action-stmt - Some TODO items still remain indicating the YANG definitions are temporary and will be replaced by more correct statements. - Additional reference-stmts would be useful to implementors who are familar with the routing RFCs that the YANG objects are based on Editorial Comments - The implementation complexity appears to be very high for both server and client developers. The interactions between subtrees is non-trivial and probably requires more clarifications. This needs to be done by implementors, not document reviewers. From nobody Tue Dec 31 20:24:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: idr@ietf.org Delivered-To: idr@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43EA312006E; Tue, 31 Dec 2019 20:24:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: idr@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.115.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: idr@ietf.org Message-ID: <157785269015.23329.2395522887141300513@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 20:24:50 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Idr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-l2vpn-13.txt X-BeenThere: idr@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Inter-Domain Routing List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2020 04:24:50 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Inter-Domain Routing WG of the IETF. Title : BGP Dissemination of L2 Flow Specification Rules Authors : Weiguo Hao Donald E. Eastlake James Uttaro Stephane Litkowski Shunwan Zhuang Filename : draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-l2vpn-13.txt Pages : 22 Date : 2019-12-31 Abstract: This document defines a Border Gateway Protocol (BGP) Flow-spec extension to disseminate Ethernet Layer 2 (L2) and Layer 2 Virtual Private Network (L2VPN) traffic filtering rules either by themselves or in conjunction with L3 Flow-specs. AFI/SAFI 6/133 and 25/134 are used for these purposes. New component types and an extended community also are defined. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-l2vpn/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-l2vpn-13 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-l2vpn-13 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-idr-flowspec-l2vpn-13 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/