From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 06 11:04:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpQv9-0004Hg-AR; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:04:55 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IpQv8-0004HY-Lw for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:04:54 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpQv8-0004HQ-CG for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:04:54 -0500 Received: from dizzyd.com ([207.210.219.225]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpQv5-0007wq-Uf for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:04:54 -0500 Received: from wrk225.corp.jabber.com (dencfw1.jabber.com [207.182.164.5]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by dizzyd.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D43FC40081 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2007 09:04:50 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <47308B62.3090408@stpeter.im> Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 08:42:26 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1.6) Gecko/20070728 Thunderbird/2.0.0.6 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=7BBD0573; url=http://www.saint-andre.com/me/stpeter.asc Jabber-ID: stpeter@jabber.org X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2a76bcd37b1c8a21336eb0a1ea6bbf48 Cc: Subject: [Ietf-message-headers] [Fwd: I-D Action:draft-saintandre-header-im-00.txt] X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0405066458==" Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --===============0405066458== Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms070700000704090308000609" This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms070700000704090308000609 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI -------- Original Message -------- To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 22:00:02 -0500 Subject: I-D Action:draft-saintandre-header-im-00.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : The IM-ID Header Field Author(s) : P. Saint-Andre Filename : draft-saintandre-header-im-00.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2007-11-05 This document defines a header field that enables the author of an email message to include an Instant Messaging (IM) URI in the message header block for the purpose of associating the author with an instant messaging address. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-saintandre-header-im-00.txt --------------ms070700000704090308000609 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIYQDCC B3AwggbZoAMCAQICAQowDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEEBQAwgbAxCzAJBgNVBAYTAklMMQ8wDQYDVQQI EwZJc3JhZWwxDjAMBgNVBAcTBUVpbGF0MRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMRowGAYD VQQLExFDQSBBdXRob3JpdHkgRGVwLjEpMCcGA1UEAxMgRnJlZSBTU0wgQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlv biBBdXRob3JpdHkxITAfBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEmFkbWluQHN0YXJ0Y29tLm9yZzAeFw0wNTA0 MDUxNDUyMTNaFw0xMDA0MDQxNDUyMTNaMIGvMQswCQYDVQQGEwJJTDEPMA0GA1UECBMGSXNy YWVsMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSMwIQYDVQQLExpTZWN1cmUgQ2VydGlmaWNh dGUgU2lnbmluZzEvMC0GA1UEAxMmU3RhcnRDb20gQ2xhc3MgMyBQcmltYXJ5IEVtYWlsIEZy 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_______________________________________________ Ietf-message-headers mailing list Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers --===============0405066458==-- From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 06 11:05:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpQvH-0004Ni-EG; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:05:03 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IpQvF-0004Lv-M4 for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:05:01 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpQvF-0004Lm-C9 for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:05:01 -0500 Received: from dizzyd.com ([207.210.219.225]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpQvC-0007xC-VE for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:05:01 -0500 Received: from wrk225.corp.jabber.com (dencfw1.jabber.com [207.182.164.5]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by dizzyd.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AE5240081 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2007 09:04:56 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <47308BA7.3080204@stpeter.im> Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 08:43:35 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1.6) Gecko/20070728 Thunderbird/2.0.0.6 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=7BBD0573; url=http://www.saint-andre.com/me/stpeter.asc Jabber-ID: stpeter@jabber.org X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 202a3ece0492a8c7e7c8672d5214398f Cc: Subject: [Ietf-message-headers] [Fwd: I-D Action:draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txt] X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1554560768==" Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --===============1554560768== Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms030307080400000804020202" This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms030307080400000804020202 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI -------- Original Message -------- To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 22:00:02 -0500 Subject: I-D Action:draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : The Presence-ID Header Field Author(s) : P. Saint-Andre Filename : draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2007-11-05 This document defines a header field that enables the author of an email message to include a Presence URI in the message header block for the purpose of associating the author with an address that provides information about network availability, also known as "presence". 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_______________________________________________ Ietf-message-headers mailing list Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers --===============1554560768==-- From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 06 12:56:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpSer-0000By-9n; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:56:13 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IpSeq-0000BB-FR for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:56:12 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpSeq-00008V-3J for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:56:12 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpSen-0002aN-9e for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:56:12 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IpSeD-0003ej-33 for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 17:55:33 +0000 Received: from c-134-89-5.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.89.5]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 17:55:33 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-134-89-5.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 17:55:33 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 18:50:32 +0100 Organization: Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <47308BA7.3080204@stpeter.im> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-89-5.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: [Ietf-message-headers] Re: I-DAction:draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Peter Saint-Andre wrote on the message-headers list: > FYI Thanks. Frankly, I hate these drafts. =20 1 - why two drafts instead of one ? 2 - who wants to publish pres URIs in email headers ? 3 - what about Netnews ? 4 - what's going on with the nice jabberid draft ? 5 - jabberid had an interesting IRI example, the new drafts claim that juliet@example.com is an URI. 6 - I've never seen a pres: URI outside of RFC 3859, why should I wish to see this in a mail header ? 7 - the jabberid was obviously about xmpp:, what are=20 im: and pres: about ? 8 - RFC 3859 still uses RFC 2396 syntax on top of a RFC 2822 . That's known to be wrong if I recall discussions with Paul and Martin on the URI list about RFC 2368 (mailto) correctly.=20 9 - Likewise RFC 3860. I hope you're not trying to move vCards piecemeal into mail header fields. Frank Cc: general list, after all jabberid was Last Called. _______________________________________________ Ietf-message-headers mailing list Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 06 15:01:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpUcW-0001DB-2R; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 15:01:56 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IpUcT-0001Cu-Hc for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 15:01:53 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpUcT-0001Bc-5I for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 15:01:53 -0500 Received: from dizzyd.com ([207.210.219.225]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpUcP-00062C-3j for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 15:01:53 -0500 Received: from wrk225.corp.jabber.com (dencfw1.jabber.com [207.182.164.5]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by dizzyd.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57E3E40081; Tue, 6 Nov 2007 13:01:48 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4730C881.4040101@stpeter.im> Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 13:03:13 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1.6) Gecko/20070728 Thunderbird/2.0.0.6 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ietf-message-headers] Re: I-DAction:draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txt References: <47308BA7.3080204@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=7BBD0573; url=http://www.saint-andre.com/me/stpeter.asc Jabber-ID: stpeter@jabber.org X-Spam-Score: 1.5 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 17bdfcaea25d1444baef0e24abc38874 Cc: ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1129557405==" Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --===============1129557405== Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms030000080105070806050006" This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms030000080105070806050006 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank Ellermann wrote: > Peter Saint-Andre wrote on the message-headers list: > >> FYI > > Thanks. Frankly, I hate these drafts. Great! Honest feedback is appreciated and agreement is overrated. :) > 1 - why two drafts instead of one ? Because some people consider IM and presence to be fully separable features, which is why we have both the pres: and im: URI schemes (as defined in RFCs 3859 and 3860 respectively). See also RFC 2779. > 2 - who wants to publish pres URIs in email headers ? Presumably people who want to show presence icons next to the names of message authors. > 3 - what about Netnews ? Yes, I added that in version -01 this morning (not yet submitted): http://svn.xmpp.org:18080/browse/XMPP/trunk/internet-drafts/draft-saintandre-header-pres-01.xml?r1=1337&r2=1339 > 4 - what's going on with the nice jabberid draft ? That is still to be determined. > 5 - jabberid had an interesting IRI example, the new > drafts claim that juliet@example.com is an URI. For good or for ill, the pres: and im: URI schemes reuse the "mailbox" construct from RFC 2822. Or something like that -- I asked about it once on the SIMPLE WG list but never received a reply, so the exact meaning is unclear to me: http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/simple/current/msg07163.html In any case non-US-ASCII characters would need to be handled as is traditional in email systems, as far as I can see. > 6 - I've never seen a pres: URI outside of RFC 3859, > why should I wish to see this in a mail header ? Because it is a more generic solution. > 7 - the jabberid was obviously about xmpp:, what are > im: and pres: about ? Any instant messaging and presence technology, as registered with the IANA: http://www.iana.org/assignments/im-srv-labels http://www.iana.org/assignments/pres-srv-labels Oddly, the only registered technology is XMPP. But other technologies could be registered (and I presume that the lack of a SIP registration is merely an oversight). > 8 - RFC 3859 still uses RFC 2396 syntax on top of a > RFC 2822 . That's known to be wrong if > I recall discussions with Paul and Martin on the > URI list about RFC 2368 (mailto) correctly. I do not recall that discussion. But, as mentioned, I do admit to being confused about the exact syntax of the pres: and im: URI schemes. > 9 - Likewise RFC 3860. I hope you're not trying to > move vCards piecemeal into mail header fields. By no means. I am trying to address feedback received during the Last Call on draft-saintandre-jabberid. Part of that feedback raised the issue of working on a more generic solution that is not tied to a specific instant messaging and presence technology (in this case, XMPP). These I-Ds are my good-faith attempt at fulfilling my promise to work on a more generic solution. > Frank > > Cc: general list, after all jabberid was Last Called. Fair enough, I retain the cc. 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Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers --===============1129557405==-- From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 06 16:35:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpW5L-0004sK-Pp; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:35:47 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IpW5K-0004sA-Jq for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:35:46 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpW5K-0004s2-AD for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:35:46 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpW5G-0000Pn-2j for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:35:46 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IpW52-0005Lf-HE for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 21:35:28 +0000 Received: from c-134-89-5.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.89.5]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 21:35:28 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-134-89-5.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 21:35:28 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 22:34:57 +0100 Organization: Lines: 68 Message-ID: References: <47308BA7.3080204@stpeter.im> <4730C881.4040101@stpeter.im> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-89-5.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 41c17b4b16d1eedaa8395c26e9a251c4 Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: [Ietf-message-headers] Re: Re:I-DAction:draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> 1 - why two drafts instead of one ? > Because some people consider IM and presence to be fully separable > features, which is why we have both the pres: and im: URI schemes Two schemes with a semantics somewhere between about: and file: ... if I am interested in pres:juliet@example.com, can say Psi help me ? >> 2 - who wants to publish pres URIs in email headers ? > Presumably people who want to show presence icons next to the names > of message authors. Okay, but Gmail can manage that without a fancy Pres-ID: mail header field. I also don't quite believe in this separation "feature". >> 3 - what about Netnews ? > Yes, I added that in version -01 this morning (not yet submitted) Thanks. >> 4 - what's going on with the nice jabberid draft ? > That is still to be determined. You've now demonstrated your good will wrt im: and pres:, after that exercise please let's continue with the jabberid. It was almost perfect, "experimental" status is also okay. >> 5 - jabberid had an interesting IRI example, the new >> drafts claim that juliet@example.com is an URI. > For good or for ill, the pres: and im: URI schemes reuse the=20 > "mailbox" construct from RFC 2822. Or something like that For ill, they imitate mailto:. But what I meant in (5) was a syntactical nit, juliet@example.com is no URI, you forgot the scheme, as in im:juliet@example.com > In any case non-US-ASCII characters would need to be handled > as is traditional in email systems, as far as I can see. "mailto-ter" (my name for a successor of mailto-bis supporting EAI) is a _very_ hard case. And mailto-bis is also a _very_ hard case. Don't hold your breath. IFF mailto-bis survives a Last Call, and IFF im/pres follow suite, and IFF 2822bis reduces its NO-WS-CTL horrors, and IFF EAI reaches "experimental", then might be a good time to look at im/pres again. =20 >> 6 - I've never seen a pres: URI outside of RFC 3859, >> why should I wish to see this in a mail header ? > Because it is a more generic solution. Okay, I've to check if Psi has a "be more generic" option :-) > http://www.iana.org/assignments/im-srv-labels Some SRV magic, does it work wrt xmpp ? Apparently there is no _xmpp.stpeter.im. "SRV" is still a mystery for me. >> if I recall discussions with Paul and Martin on the >> URI list about RFC 2368 (mailto) correctly.=20 > I do not recall that discussion. Sorry, it was Bruce and Paul, Matin was in other mailto-threads. Frank _______________________________________________ Ietf-message-headers mailing list Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 06 16:57:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpWPt-0001Tx-RB; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:57:01 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IpWPs-0001RI-Eg for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:57:00 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpWPs-0001Qs-4S for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:57:00 -0500 Received: from dizzyd.com ([207.210.219.225]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpWPm-00015U-N7 for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:57:00 -0500 Received: from wrk225.corp.jabber.com (dencfw1.jabber.com [207.182.164.5]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by dizzyd.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D566D40081; Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:56:53 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <4730E37F.1020205@stpeter.im> Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 14:58:23 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1.6) Gecko/20070728 Thunderbird/2.0.0.6 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ietf-message-headers] Re: Re:I-DAction:draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txt References: <47308BA7.3080204@stpeter.im> <4730C881.4040101@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=7BBD0573; url=http://www.saint-andre.com/me/stpeter.asc Jabber-ID: stpeter@jabber.org X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a1f9797ba297220533cb8c3f4bc709a8 Cc: ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0668227443==" Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --===============0668227443== Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms050201060408050605090004" This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms050201060408050605090004 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank Ellermann wrote: > Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > >>> 1 - why two drafts instead of one ? >> Because some people consider IM and presence to be fully separable >> features, which is why we have both the pres: and im: URI schemes > > Two schemes with a semantics somewhere between about: and file: ... > if I am interested in pres:juliet@example.com, can say Psi help me ? Not unless Psi implements resolution of the pres: URI scheme (i.e., doing the required SRV lookup). As far as I know, Psi does not yet implement that. >>> 2 - who wants to publish pres URIs in email headers ? >> Presumably people who want to show presence icons next to the names >> of message authors. > > Okay, but Gmail can manage that without a fancy Pres-ID: mail header > field. I also don't quite believe in this separation "feature". Gmail is an integrated service. What if you're using mutt or Thunderbird or some random MUA and you want to show presence information about a message author? >>> 3 - what about Netnews ? >> Yes, I added that in version -01 this morning (not yet submitted) > > Thanks. > >>> 4 - what's going on with the nice jabberid draft ? >> That is still to be determined. > > You've now demonstrated your good will wrt im: and pres:, after > that exercise please let's continue with the jabberid. It was > almost perfect, "experimental" status is also okay. Version -06 had an intended status of Informational. I have been convinced that that's most appropriate. >>> 5 - jabberid had an interesting IRI example, the new >>> drafts claim that juliet@example.com is an URI. >> For good or for ill, the pres: and im: URI schemes reuse the >> "mailbox" construct from RFC 2822. Or something like that > > For ill, they imitate mailto:. But what I meant in (5) was a > syntactical nit, juliet@example.com is no URI, you forgot the > scheme, as in im:juliet@example.com > >> In any case non-US-ASCII characters would need to be handled >> as is traditional in email systems, as far as I can see. > > "mailto-ter" (my name for a successor of mailto-bis supporting > EAI) is a _very_ hard case. And mailto-bis is also a _very_ > hard case. Don't hold your breath. > > IFF mailto-bis survives a Last Call, and IFF im/pres follow > suite, and IFF 2822bis reduces its NO-WS-CTL horrors, and IFF > EAI reaches "experimental", then might be a good time to look > at im/pres again. > >>> 6 - I've never seen a pres: URI outside of RFC 3859, >>> why should I wish to see this in a mail header ? >> Because it is a more generic solution. > > Okay, I've to check if Psi has a "be more generic" option :-) Probably not yet. You can always request the feature. :) >> http://www.iana.org/assignments/im-srv-labels > > Some SRV magic, does it work wrt xmpp ? Apparently there > is no _xmpp.stpeter.im. "SRV" is still a mystery for me. I don't run an xmpp server at my personal domain, since I use the jabber.org domain for that. But per RFC 3859 you can type 'dig SRV _pres._xmpp.jabber.org' and get some results (since we mainly use these SRV records for server-to-server functionality, the SRV record lists a port of 5269, which is the server-to-server port for xmpp). >>> if I recall discussions with Paul and Martin on the >>> URI list about RFC 2368 (mailto) correctly. >> I do not recall that discussion. > > Sorry, > it was Bruce and Paul, Matin was in other mailto-threads. Thanks. 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Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers --===============0668227443==-- From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 07 04:55:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iphcj-0000ST-Ac; Wed, 07 Nov 2007 04:55:01 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Iphci-0000SO-BA for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Nov 2007 04:55:00 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iphch-0000SG-OP for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Nov 2007 04:54:59 -0500 Received: from dizzyd.com ([207.210.219.225]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iphce-0000y1-3X for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Nov 2007 04:54:59 -0500 Received: from dialup-4.227.193.193.Dial1.Denver1.Level3.net (dialup-4.227.193.193.Dial1.Denver1.Level3.net [4.227.193.193]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by dizzyd.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBF8540081; Wed, 7 Nov 2007 02:54:49 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <47318BC3.7050009@stpeter.im> Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 02:56:19 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1.6) Gecko/20070728 Thunderbird/2.0.0.6 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SM Subject: Re: [Ietf-message-headers] Re: I-DAction:draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txt References: <47308BA7.3080204@stpeter.im> <4730C881.4040101@stpeter.im> <6.2.5.6.2.20071106124213.03069a38@resistor.net> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20071106124213.03069a38@resistor.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=7BBD0573; url=http://www.saint-andre.com/me/stpeter.asc Jabber-ID: stpeter@jabber.org X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 501044f827b673024f6a4cb1d46e67d2 Cc: ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1556203567==" Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --===============1556203567== Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms050306090805030301010006" This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms050306090805030301010006 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SM wrote: > At 12:03 06-11-2007, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> > 1 - why two drafts instead of one ? >> >> Because some people consider IM and presence to be fully separable >> features, which is why we have both the pres: and im: URI schemes (as >> defined in RFCs 3859 and 3860 respectively). See also RFC 2779. > > I read draft-saintandre-header-im-00. I must have missed > draft-saintandre-header-pres-00. I submitted both of the following: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-saintandre-header-im-00 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-saintandre-header-pres-00 > I hope there's not going to be a new header each time there's a new > feature. :-) I'm not sure what you mean by "feature". According to RFC 2779, IM and presence are separate domains of functionality, which is why there is an im: URI scheme and a pres: URI scheme. I don't foresee other such URIs. >> > 9 - Likewise RFC 3860. I hope you're not trying to >> > move vCards piecemeal into mail header fields. >> >> By no means. I am trying to address feedback received during the Last >> Call on draft-saintandre-jabberid. Part of that feedback raised the >> issue of working on a more generic solution that is not tied to a >> specific instant messaging and presence technology (in this case, XMPP). >> These I-Ds are my good-faith attempt at fulfilling my promise to work on >> a more generic solution. > > Could we have only one I-D which is extensible to encompass all these > schemes? I assume that will be draft-saintandre-header-pres-01. What are "these schemes"? What is the category under which it is perceived that the im: scheme and the pres: scheme are the same? Again, according to RFC 2779, RFC 3859, and RFC 3860, these are separate and distinct domains of functionality, which just happen to often be implemented and deployed in the same systems or services. > BTW, the Author's address in your draft seems incomplete. Because it doesn't include every URI scheme under the sun? ;-) Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ --------------ms050306090805030301010006 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIYQDCC B3AwggbZoAMCAQICAQowDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEEBQAwgbAxCzAJBgNVBAYTAklMMQ8wDQYDVQQI EwZJc3JhZWwxDjAMBgNVBAcTBUVpbGF0MRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMRowGAYD VQQLExFDQSBBdXRob3JpdHkgRGVwLjEpMCcGA1UEAxMgRnJlZSBTU0wgQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlv biBBdXRob3JpdHkxITAfBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEmFkbWluQHN0YXJ0Y29tLm9yZzAeFw0wNTA0 MDUxNDUyMTNaFw0xMDA0MDQxNDUyMTNaMIGvMQswCQYDVQQGEwJJTDEPMA0GA1UECBMGSXNy YWVsMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSMwIQYDVQQLExpTZWN1cmUgQ2VydGlmaWNh dGUgU2lnbmluZzEvMC0GA1UEAxMmU3RhcnRDb20gQ2xhc3MgMyBQcmltYXJ5IEVtYWlsIEZy 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_______________________________________________ Ietf-message-headers mailing list Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers --===============1556203567==-- From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 07 18:47:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpucW-0004Er-UD; Wed, 07 Nov 2007 18:47:40 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IpucV-00048J-GJ for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Nov 2007 18:47:39 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpucV-00046u-5Z for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Nov 2007 18:47:39 -0500 Received: from dizzyd.com ([207.210.219.225]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpucS-0007b6-I6 for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Nov 2007 18:47:39 -0500 Received: from roundabout.local (dencfw1.jabber.com [207.182.164.5]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by dizzyd.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF04640081; Wed, 7 Nov 2007 16:47:35 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <47324EF1.4000505@stpeter.im> Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 16:49:05 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1.9) Gecko/20071031 Thunderbird/2.0.0.9 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SM Subject: Re: [Ietf-message-headers] Re: I-DAction:draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txt References: <47308BA7.3080204@stpeter.im> <4730C881.4040101@stpeter.im> <6.2.5.6.2.20071106124213.03069a38@resistor.net> <47318BC3.7050009@stpeter.im> <6.2.5.6.2.20071107081447.03037770@resistor.net> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20071107081447.03037770@resistor.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=7BBD0573; url=http://www.saint-andre.com/me/stpeter.asc Jabber-ID: stpeter@jabber.org X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 140baa79ca42e6b0e2b4504291346186 Cc: ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0251407960==" Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --===============0251407960== Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms000306070101080502080101" This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms000306070101080502080101 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SM wrote: > At 01:56 07-11-2007, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> I'm not sure what you mean by "feature". According to RFC 2779, IM and >> presence are separate domains of functionality, which is why there is an >> im: URI scheme and a pres: URI scheme. I don't foresee other such URIs. > > Quoting the drafts: > > Because almost all human users of instant messaging systems are users > of email systems, it can be helpful for such users to specify their > (IM/presence) URIs in the email messages they author. > > Although IM and presence are separate domains of functionality, the > proposed mail headers for them :- > > 1. provides a standard location for the exchange of such information > > 2. are associated with the author of the message > > 3. uses similar syntax for the URI > >> What are "these schemes"? What is the category under which it is >> perceived that the im: scheme and the pres: scheme are the same? Again, >> according to RFC 2779, RFC 3859, and RFC 3860, these are separate and >> distinct domains of functionality, which just happen to often be >> implemented and deployed in the same systems or services. > > You are viewing the im: scheme and the pres: scheme from the point of > view of their RFCs which is different from the functionality offered by > the mail header. In a previous email, you mentioned a generic > solution. My point is that it is better to have a generic mail header > to encompass pres:, im: and other schemes that would use URIs in such a > manner. > > We could have, for example, the following header: > > Contact-ID: pres:juliet@example.com; im:juliet@example.com > > The MUA would process the header to determine whether there is a > presence URI or IM URI and take appropriate action. But what is a Contact-ID? Any means by which you could contact me might be included in that category -- email, telephone, voicemail, fax, post office box, various IM addresses, IRC channels where I hang out, etc. And in fact a pres: URI does not provide a means of contact. It provides a way for you to know about my network availability, but you can't communicate with me via that URI, so it's not a Contact-ID at all. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ --------------ms000306070101080502080101 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIYQDCC B3AwggbZoAMCAQICAQowDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEEBQAwgbAxCzAJBgNVBAYTAklMMQ8wDQYDVQQI EwZJc3JhZWwxDjAMBgNVBAcTBUVpbGF0MRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMRowGAYD VQQLExFDQSBBdXRob3JpdHkgRGVwLjEpMCcGA1UEAxMgRnJlZSBTU0wgQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlv biBBdXRob3JpdHkxITAfBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEmFkbWluQHN0YXJ0Y29tLm9yZzAeFw0wNTA0 MDUxNDUyMTNaFw0xMDA0MDQxNDUyMTNaMIGvMQswCQYDVQQGEwJJTDEPMA0GA1UECBMGSXNy YWVsMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSMwIQYDVQQLExpTZWN1cmUgQ2VydGlmaWNh dGUgU2lnbmluZzEvMC0GA1UEAxMmU3RhcnRDb20gQ2xhc3MgMyBQcmltYXJ5IEVtYWlsIEZy ZWUgQ0ExITAfBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEmFkbWluQHN0YXJ0Y29tLm9yZzCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcN 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Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers --===============0251407960==-- From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 08 09:37:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iq8VI-0007CT-89; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 09:37:08 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Iq8VH-0007CF-T7 for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 09:37:07 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iq8VH-0007Bt-H1 for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 09:37:07 -0500 Received: from ns1.qubic.net ([208.78.240.212]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iq8VD-00071E-TN for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 09:37:07 -0500 Received: from subman.resistor.net ([10.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by ns1.qubic.net (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id lA8EaeWh017994 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 8 Nov 2007 06:36:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1194532622; x=1194619022; bh=pg/cJHvqYwJqFoMGMzptDA189TmjCELVgstL e5wdrNM=; h=DomainKey-Signature:Message-Id:X-Mailer:Date:To:From: Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Cc; b=daM 1PE0QGcQGDxudzejWjjR3qxH4N2gBjf4TId/QoSsal+L4HpqI+aFZEMCoOCzLgJAWOL ze+Yqr+6/soOj1iG/ncwLNJVqxLPA4j6J4rVHlBg/I5iHQ6NfmfyAs11Jbfj8iQcuUy 4j91mHozxtq6HUkT/my66rU1wGqTGYzT+8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=mail; d=resistor.net; c=simple; q=dns; b=RodCB+sZ9a0jAAZqr/MSxZjttKy73A/BAQEPo1SMvhklI+TOvkVl9riMEqZ375EUX QQC0qY1nf1F0ze7gLRMriaZfqAonpECyh4gjMOPQo9Rl8vXGb8496TYL7zCqpHtEJ5S w5oULK2GRuOGdiDwLUSpGptvrMf/galZiXLQQP4= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20071108060805.02e55a18@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 06:33:35 -0800 To: ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org From: SM Subject: Re: [Ietf-message-headers] Re: I-DAction:draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txt In-Reply-To: <47324EF1.4000505@stpeter.im> References: <47308BA7.3080204@stpeter.im> <4730C881.4040101@stpeter.im> <6.2.5.6.2.20071106124213.03069a38@resistor.net> <47318BC3.7050009@stpeter.im> <6.2.5.6.2.20071107081447.03037770@resistor.net> <47324EF1.4000505@stpeter.im> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Cc: X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org At 15:49 07-11-2007, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >But what is a Contact-ID? Any means by which you could contact me might >be included in that category -- email, telephone, voicemail, fax, post >office box, various IM addresses, IRC channels where I hang out, etc. A contact can be a channel of communication. In the case of your drafts, it's a channel which can be associated with a URI. If you find the header name inappropriate, you can invent another term for it. >And in fact a pres: URI does not provide a means of contact. It provides >a way for you to know about my network availability, but you can't >communicate with me via that URI, so it's not a Contact-ID at all. The pres: URI provides a means to retrieve presence information. It's indirectly a means of contact. Regards, -sm _______________________________________________ Ietf-message-headers mailing list Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 08 11:00:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iq9o8-0006V5-Ae; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 11:00:40 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Iq9o5-0006QS-Nn for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 11:00:37 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iq9o4-0006QC-VG for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 11:00:37 -0500 Received: from dizzyd.com ([207.210.219.225]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iq9o1-0001dc-EF for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 11:00:36 -0500 Received: from dialup-4.227.197.145.Dial1.Denver1.Level3.net (dialup-4.227.197.145.Dial1.Denver1.Level3.net [4.227.197.145]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by dizzyd.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 442DF40081; Thu, 8 Nov 2007 09:00:28 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <473332F6.5010208@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 09:01:58 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1.9) Gecko/20071031 Thunderbird/2.0.0.9 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SM Subject: Re: [Ietf-message-headers] Re: I-DAction:draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txt References: <47308BA7.3080204@stpeter.im> <4730C881.4040101@stpeter.im> <6.2.5.6.2.20071106124213.03069a38@resistor.net> <47318BC3.7050009@stpeter.im> <6.2.5.6.2.20071107081447.03037770@resistor.net> <47324EF1.4000505@stpeter.im> <6.2.5.6.2.20071108060805.02e55a18@resistor.net> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20071108060805.02e55a18@resistor.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=7BBD0573; url=http://www.saint-andre.com/me/stpeter.asc Jabber-ID: stpeter@jabber.org X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e8c5db863102a3ada84e0cd52a81a79e Cc: ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0000795130==" Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --===============0000795130== Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms070908040807040605080309" This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms070908040807040605080309 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SM wrote: > At 15:49 07-11-2007, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> But what is a Contact-ID? Any means by which you could contact me might >> be included in that category -- email, telephone, voicemail, fax, post >> office box, various IM addresses, IRC channels where I hang out, etc. > > A contact can be a channel of communication. In the case of your > drafts, it's a channel which can be associated with a URI. If you find > the header name inappropriate, you can invent another term for it. > >> And in fact a pres: URI does not provide a means of contact. It provides >> a way for you to know about my network availability, but you can't >> communicate with me via that URI, so it's not a Contact-ID at all. > > The pres: URI provides a means to retrieve presence information. It's > indirectly a means of contact. I don't think it makes sense for me to say "contact me at my presence URI" because there's no way for me to receive inbound communications at that URI. It is purely outbound from me to the world. I wrote draft-saintandre-header-im and draft-saintandre-header-pres (now both in version -01) to address some feedback I received during IETF LC regarding draft-saintandre-jabberid. 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--===============0000795130== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ietf-message-headers mailing list Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers --===============0000795130==-- From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 08 14:23:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqCya-0005om-9S; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:23:40 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IqCyZ-0005og-PY for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:23:39 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqCyZ-0005oY-Fq for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:23:39 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqCyV-0000SR-TJ for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:23:39 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IqCyU-0007V4-Ef for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 19:23:34 +0000 Received: from c-180-160-96.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.96]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 19:23:34 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-96.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 19:23:34 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 20:23:06 +0100 Organization: Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <47308BA7.3080204@stpeter.im> <4730C881.4040101@stpeter.im><6.2.5.6.2.20071106124213.03069a38@resistor.net><47318BC3.7050009@stpeter.im><6.2.5.6.2.20071107081447.03037770@resistor.net><47324EF1.4000505@stpeter.im><6.2.5.6.2.20071108060805.02e55a18@resistor.net><473332F6.5010208@stpeter.im> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-96.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Cc: Subject: [Ietf-message-headers] Re: I-DAction:draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txt X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Sam Hartman wrote: > Personally I think I liked the original jabberid concept better > all of these concepts seem acceptable and the important thing in > my mind is for us to pick one and standardize it. IMO the im/pres I-Ds are on "DNP track". xmpp: offers full I18N, Peter mentioned that only xmpp: bothered to get im/pres registry entries, I vaguely recall that xmpp: also supports SIP somehow, and the new I-D.saintandre-jabberid-07 is ready for publication. IANA knows how to create two header field registry entries for two protocols. I think it should be a "permanent" header field: | The assignment policy for such registration is "Specification=20 | Required", as defined by RFC 2434 [3], where the specification | must be published in an RFC (standards-track, experimental,=20 | informational or historic), or as an "Open Standard" in the | sense of RFC 2026, section 7 [1]. Note "informational" =3D> good enough for "permanent". I don't see why this needs "Author/Change controller: XMPP Registrar", the underlying xmpp: URI RFCs are anyway controlled by the IETF. For Received-SPF we switched from "SPF Council" to "IETF" after deciding to go for PS instead of "experimental", and after the IESG flipped draft-schlitt back to "experimental" we kept the "Author/Change controller: IETF" for this header field anyway. Frank =20 _______________________________________________ Ietf-message-headers mailing list Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 09 12:20:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqXX7-0005Tm-Qb; Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:20:41 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IpZUv-0003m1-D9 for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 20:14:25 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpZUv-0003lt-3X for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 20:14:25 -0500 Received: from ns1.qubic.net ([208.78.240.212]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpZUs-0008KH-MJ for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 20:14:25 -0500 Received: from subman.resistor.net ([10.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by ns1.qubic.net (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id lA71DxWp013457 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 6 Nov 2007 17:14:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1194398054; x=1194484454; bh=PT5FXFxlw3XYmvRwW/h4fYpi8ebpk6/Ys3Ng 1G5saKU=; h=DomainKey-Signature:Message-Id:X-Mailer:Date:To:From: Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=rZI PEQFDqxDyLqwzLjyRyA0CfHk6keL6iH0jW+F8blOTdP4eMm4FjZ5OvaAtLlQ74A+Wo3 GuOmmubTtn9r7VufUvZwwdA+wmrHJ5mfOPZYdiXTJkCdmWBla36iH3/CXlo7b9XuB01 irLVNtalvWiBZkDPIjy83sqrRx4MUl2pK0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=mail; d=resistor.net; c=simple; q=dns; b=fnc+8sM0y454GbTSbfjFSlcN/MRkpItJbntBHQGXGEWU9oGyUEqqNR5X4xeF6cPQ1 y8jYRYD4PdlrI4j1LTM1xkSaW0hZC1rjz8lEcINMr+jzDbB+wPrEvu9kohgJ/U98uPI 2je0J7qOtYK6qldEEOzM0IaaUVNwtP0SZPCmOfc= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20071106124213.03069a38@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 17:13:48 -0800 To: Peter Saint-Andre From: SM Subject: Re: [Ietf-message-headers] Re: I-DAction:draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txt In-Reply-To: <4730C881.4040101@stpeter.im> References: <47308BA7.3080204@stpeter.im> <4730C881.4040101@stpeter.im> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:20:40 -0500 Cc: ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org At 12:03 06-11-2007, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > 1 - why two drafts instead of one ? > >Because some people consider IM and presence to be fully separable >features, which is why we have both the pres: and im: URI schemes (as >defined in RFCs 3859 and 3860 respectively). See also RFC 2779. I read draft-saintandre-header-im-00. I must have missed draft-saintandre-header-pres-00. I hope there's not going to be a new header each time there's a new feature. :-) > > 9 - Likewise RFC 3860. I hope you're not trying to > > move vCards piecemeal into mail header fields. > >By no means. I am trying to address feedback received during the Last >Call on draft-saintandre-jabberid. Part of that feedback raised the >issue of working on a more generic solution that is not tied to a >specific instant messaging and presence technology (in this case, XMPP). >These I-Ds are my good-faith attempt at fulfilliFrom ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 09 12:20:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqXX7-0005Tm-Qb; Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:20:41 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IpZUv-0003m1-D9 for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 20:14:25 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpZUv-0003lt-3X for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 20:14:25 -0500 Received: from ns1.qubic.net ([208.78.240.212]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpZUs-0008KH-MJ for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 20:14:25 -0500 Received: from subman.resistor.net ([10.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by ns1.qubic.net (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id lA71DxWp013457 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 6 Nov 2007 17:14:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1194398054; x=1194484454; bh=PT5FXFxlw3XYmvRwW/h4fYpi8ebpk6/Ys3Ng 1G5saKU=; h=DomainKey-Signature:Message-Id:X-Mailer:Date:To:From: Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=rZI PEQFDqxDyLqwzLjyRyA0CfHk6keL6iH0jW+F8blOTdP4eMm4FjZ5OvaAtLlQ74A+Wo3 GuOmmubTtn9r7VufUvZwwdA+wmrHJ5mfOPZYdiXTJkCdmWBla36iH3/CXlo7b9XuB01 irLVNtalvWiBZkDPIjy83sqrRx4MUl2pK0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=mail; d=resistor.net; c=simple; q=dns; b=fnc+8sM0y454GbTSbfjFSlcN/MRkpItJbntBHQGXGEWU9oGyUEqqNR5X4xeF6cPQ1 y8jYRYD4PdlrI4j1LTM1xkSaW0hZC1rjz8lEcINMr+jzDbB+wPrEvu9kohgJ/U98uPI 2je0J7qOtYK6qldEEOzM0IaaUVNwtP0SZPCmOfc= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20071106124213.03069a38@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 17:13:48 -0800 To: Peter Saint-Andre From: SM Subject: Re: [Ietf-message-headers] Re: I-DAction:draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txt In-Reply-To: <4730C881.4040101@stpeter.im> References: <47308BA7.3080204@stpeter.im> <4730C881.4040101@stpeter.im> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:20:40 -0500 Cc: ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org At 12:03 06-11-2007, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > 1 - why two drafts instead of one ? > >Because some people consider IM and presence to be fully separable >features, which is why we have both the pres: and im: URI schemes (as >defined in RFCs 3859 and 3860 respectively). See also RFC 2779. I read draft-saintandre-header-im-00. I must have missed draft-saintandre-header-pres-00. I hope there's not going to be a new header each time there's a new feature. :-) > > 9 - Likewise RFC 3860. I hope you're not trying to > > move vCards piecemeal into mail header fields. > >By no means. I am trying to address feedback received during the Last >Call on draft-saintandre-jabberid. Part of that feedback raised the >issue of working on a more generic solution that is not tied to a >specific instant messaging and presence technology (in this case, XMPP). >These I-Ds are my good-faith attempt at fulfilling my promise to work on >a more generic solution. Could we have only one I-D which is extensible to encompass all these schemes? I assume that will be draft-saintandre-header-pres-01. BTW, the Author's address in your draft seems incomplete. Regards, -sm _______________________________________________ Ietf-message-headers mailing list Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 09 12:20:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqXX7-0005Tq-Sp; Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:20:41 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Ipp0J-0000pM-99 for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:47:51 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ipp0I-0000p8-V1 for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:47:50 -0500 Received: from ns1.qubic.net ([208.78.240.212]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ipp0F-0001pF-7G for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:47:50 -0500 Received: from subman.resistor.net ([10.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by ns1.qubic.net (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id lA7HlSCa024649 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Nov 2007 09:47:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1194457663; x=1194544063; bh=kPWe/kFZVTei1b0kkza/9ycHb2UbSUdgsHhy b/kppLw=; h=DomainKey-Signature:Message-Id:X-Mailer:Date:To:From: Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=My5 mURBCy/rKmxdw7PMa3eS2Yu110ohfj4j43EeuZRMfHGz6yc7bO6/H1NJXhsKFb98Dwa hc0lL0hGglkm/y7fGxQWN8u0UAMdTqsi/LkiqajEvxLz/URvygAxIl8xOt5+Khzsw4H rSIt6hn4DFnNlaACqX670QCvCQAiMewpjg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=mail; d=resistor.net; c=simple; q=dns; b=hHrB4gqrO7M31NtJvc9EYxRTj0tMizTKjiKAiy4XfdympZ6hMDJZ2AUxEBZ4ieeOx rx7IJnwycT0Z38LqxbArYLKWg/8cF6QUeFwFVI+YgvaUJvZm61q89UIZt7od2ROXL1E X6vfqL1X+S+2/PCaiwNBuTnRtsXpJkznMzqo9ww= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20071107081447.03037770@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 09:47:15 -0800 To: Peter Saint-Andre From: SM Subject: Re: [Ietf-message-headers] Re: I-DAction:draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txt In-Reply-To: <47318BC3.7050009@stpeter.im> References: <47308BA7.3080204@stpeter.im> <4730C881.4040101@stpeter.im> <6.2.5.6.2.20071106124213.03069a38@resistor.net> <47318BC3.7050009@stpeter.im> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:20:40 -0500 Cc: ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org At 01:56 07-11-2007, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >I submitted both of the following: > >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-saintandre-header-im-00 > >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-saintandre-header-pres-00 Thanks. >I'm not sure what you mean by "feature". According to RFC 2779, IM and >presence are separate domains of functionality, which is why there is an >im: URI scheme and a pres: URI sng my promise to work on >a more generic solution. Could we have only one I-D which is extensible to encompass all these schemes? I assume that will be draft-saintandre-header-pres-01. BTW, the Author's address in your draft seems incomplete. Regards, -sm _______________________________________________ Ietf-message-headers mailing list Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 09 12:20:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqXX7-0005Tq-Sp; Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:20:41 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Ipp0J-0000pM-99 for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:47:51 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ipp0I-0000p8-V1 for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:47:50 -0500 Received: from ns1.qubic.net ([208.78.240.212]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ipp0F-0001pF-7G for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:47:50 -0500 Received: from subman.resistor.net ([10.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by ns1.qubic.net (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id lA7HlSCa024649 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 7 Nov 2007 09:47:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1194457663; x=1194544063; bh=kPWe/kFZVTei1b0kkza/9ycHb2UbSUdgsHhy b/kppLw=; h=DomainKey-Signature:Message-Id:X-Mailer:Date:To:From: Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=My5 mURBCy/rKmxdw7PMa3eS2Yu110ohfj4j43EeuZRMfHGz6yc7bO6/H1NJXhsKFb98Dwa hc0lL0hGglkm/y7fGxQWN8u0UAMdTqsi/LkiqajEvxLz/URvygAxIl8xOt5+Khzsw4H rSIt6hn4DFnNlaACqX670QCvCQAiMewpjg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=mail; d=resistor.net; c=simple; q=dns; b=hHrB4gqrO7M31NtJvc9EYxRTj0tMizTKjiKAiy4XfdympZ6hMDJZ2AUxEBZ4ieeOx rx7IJnwycT0Z38LqxbArYLKWg/8cF6QUeFwFVI+YgvaUJvZm61q89UIZt7od2ROXL1E X6vfqL1X+S+2/PCaiwNBuTnRtsXpJkznMzqo9ww= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20071107081447.03037770@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 09:47:15 -0800 To: Peter Saint-Andre From: SM Subject: Re: [Ietf-message-headers] Re: I-DAction:draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txt In-Reply-To: <47318BC3.7050009@stpeter.im> References: <47308BA7.3080204@stpeter.im> <4730C881.4040101@stpeter.im> <6.2.5.6.2.20071106124213.03069a38@resistor.net> <47318BC3.7050009@stpeter.im> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:20:40 -0500 Cc: ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org At 01:56 07-11-2007, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >I submitted both of the following: > >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-saintandre-header-im-00 > >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-saintandre-header-pres-00 Thanks. >I'm not sure what you mean by "feature". According to RFC 2779, IM and >presence are separate domains of functionality, which is why there is an >im: URI scheme and a pres: URI scheme. I don't foresee other such URIs. Quoting the drafts: Because almost all human users of instant messaging systems are users of email systems, it can be helpful for such users to specify their (IM/presence) URIs in the email messages they author. Although IM and presence are separate domains of functionality, the proposed mail headers for them :- 1. provides a standard location for the exchange of such information 2. are associated with the author of the message 3. uses similar syntax for the URI >What are "these schemes"? What is the category under which it is >perceived that the im: scheme and the pres: scheme are the same? Again, >according to RFC 2779, RFC 3859, and RFC 3860, these are separate and >distinct domains of functionality, which just happen to often be >implemented and deployed in the same systems or services. You are viewing the im: scheme and the pres: scheme from the point of view of their RFCs which is different from the functionality offered by the mail header. In a previous email, you mentioned a generic solution. My point is that it is better to have a generic mail header to encompass pres:, im: and other schemes that would use URIs in such a manner. We could have, for example, the following header: Contact-ID: pres:juliet@example.com; im:juliet@example.com The MUA would process the header to determine whether there is a presence URI or IM URI and take appropriate action. >Because it doesn't include every URI scheme under the sun? ;-) No, it's because it doesn't contain a snail mail address to support legacy communication channels. :-) Regards, -sm _______________________________________________ Ietf-message-headers mailing list Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers cheme. I don't foresee other such URIs. Quoting the drafts: Because almost all human users of instant messaging systems are users of email systems, it can be helpful for such users to specify their (IM/presence) URIs in the email messages they author. Although IM and presence are separate domains of functionality, the proposed mail headers for them :- 1. provides a standard location for the exchange of such information 2. are associated with the author of the message 3. uses similar syntax for the URI >What are "these schemes"? What is the category under which it is >perceived that the im: scheme and the pres: scheme are the same? Again, >according to RFC 2779, RFC 3859, and RFC 3860, these are separate and >distinct domains of functionality, which just happen to often be >implemented and deployed in the same systems or services. You are viewing the im: scheme and the pres: scheme from the point of view of their RFCs which is different from the functionality offered by the mail header. In a previous email, you mentioned a generic solution. My point is that it is better to have a generic mail header to encompass pres:, im: and other schemes that would use URIs in such a manner. We could have, for example, the following header: Contact-ID: pres:juliet@example.com; im:juliet@example.com The MUA would process the header to determine whether there is a presence URI or IM URI and take appropriate action. >Because it doesn't include every URI scheme under the sun? ;-) No, it's because it doesn't contain a snail mail address to support legacy communication channels. :-) Regards, -sm _______________________________________________ Ietf-message-headers mailing list Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 09 12:20:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqXX7-0005Tu-Uz; Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:20:41 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IqBX2-0005u4-Sf for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 12:51:08 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqBX2-0005tj-H4 for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 12:51:08 -0500 Received: from carter-zimmerman.suchdamage.org ([69.25.196.178]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqBWy-0005Za-8C for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 12:51:08 -0500 Received: by carter-zimmerman.suchdamage.org (Postfix, from userid 8042) id 09AD84A45; Thu, 8 Nov 2007 12:51:02 -0500 (EST) From: Sam Hartman To: Peter Saint-Andre Subject: Re: [Ietf-message-headers] Re: I-DAction:draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txt References: <47308BA7.3080204@stpeter.im> <4730C881.4040101@stpeter.im> <6.2.5.6.2.20071106124213.03069a38@resistor.net> <47318BC3.7050009@stpeter.im> <6.2.5.6.2.20071107081447.03037770@resistor.net> <47324EF1.4000505@stpeter.im> <6.2.5.6.2.20071108060805.02e55a18@resistor.net> <473332F6.5010208@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 12:51:01 -0500 In-Reply-To: <473332F6.5010208@stpeter.im> (Peter Saint-Andre's message of "Thu, 08 Nov 2007 09:01:58 -0700") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/21.4 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2870a44b67ee17965ce5ad0177e150f4 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:20:41 -0500 Cc: ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Personally I think I liked the original jabberid concept better, but all of these concepts seem acceptable and the important thing in my mind is for us to pick one and standardize it. _______________________________________________ Ietf-message-headers mailing list Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 14 11:34:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IsLCQ-0001Nh-59; Wed, 14 Nov 2007 11:34:46 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IrWN9-0007T6-HK for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 05:18:27 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrWN3-0007Kt-KK for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 05:18:21 -0500 Received: from rufus.isode.com ([62.3.217.251]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrWN1-00040X-3u for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 05:18:21 -0500 Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:18:13 +0000 Message-ID: <47376CA5.2050309@isode.com> Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 20:57:09 +0000 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: SM , Peter Saint-Andre Subject: Re: [Ietf-message-headers] Re: I-DAction:draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txt References: <47308BA7.3080204@stpeter.im> <4730C881.4040101@stpeter.im> <6.2.5.6.2.20071106124213.03069a38@resistor.net> <47318BC3.7050009@stpeter.im> <6.2.5.6.2.20071107081447.03037770@resistor.net> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20071107081447.03037770@resistor.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 11:34:44 -0500 Cc: ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org SM wrote: > At 01:56 07-11-2007, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: [...] >> What are "these schemes"? What is the category under which it is >> perceived that the im: scheme and the pres: scheme are the same? Again, >> according to RFC 2779, RFC 3859, and RFC 3860, these are separate and >> distinct domains of functionality, which just happen to often be >> implemented and deployed in the same systems or services. > > You are viewing the im: scheme and the pres: scheme from the point of > view of their RFCs which is different from the functionality offered > by the mail header. In a previous email, you mentioned a generic > solution. My point is that it is better to have a generic mail header > to encompass pres:, im: and other schemes that would use URIs in such > a manner. +1. I don't see why 2 nearly identical header fields are needed. I also don't see any particular reason for prohibiting direct use of XMPP or SIP URIs here. There is no need in extra resolution step if an email author only supports one type of IM application. Regarding the recommended syntax: it is worth considering syntax used by List-Archive/List-Unsubscribe/... (RFC 2369) header fields, which are surrounded by '<' and '>', e.g.: List-Archive: > We could have, for example, the following header: > > Contact-ID: pres:juliet@example.com; im:juliet@example.com > > The MUA would process the header to determine whether there is a > presence URI or IM URI and take appropriate action. _______________________________________________ Ietf-message-headers mailing list Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 26 18:10:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iwn5b-0003HI-LM; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:10:07 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Iwn5a-0003Gv-Hp for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:10:06 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iwn5a-0003Ge-7f for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:10:06 -0500 Received: from dizzyd.com ([207.210.219.225]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iwn5X-0004qJ-DX for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:10:06 -0500 Received: from wrk225.corp.jabber.com (dencfw1.jabber.com [207.182.164.5]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by dizzyd.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFF0340369; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:10:01 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <474B52B3.5010506@stpeter.im> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:11:47 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1.9) Gecko/20071031 Thunderbird/2.0.0.9 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cullen Jennings Subject: Re: [Ietf-message-headers] Re: I-DAction:draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txt References: <47308BA7.3080204@stpeter.im> <4730C881.4040101@stpeter.im> <6.2.5.6.2.20071106124213.03069a38@resistor.net> <47318BC3.7050009@stpeter.im> <6.2.5.6.2.20071107081447.03037770@resistor.net> <47376CA5.2050309@isode.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=7BBD0573; url=http://www.saint-andre.com/me/stpeter.asc Jabber-ID: stpeter@jabber.org X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b84f8c8fba0e1389e5eb998b64078964 Cc: Alexey Melnikov , ietf@ietf.org, ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0757333184==" Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --===============0757333184== Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms000104020900080003060905" This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms000104020900080003060905 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cullen Jennings wrote: > > On Nov 11, 2007, at 12:57 PM, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > >> I also don't see any particular reason for prohibiting direct use of >> XMPP or SIP URIs here. There is no need in extra resolution step if an >> email author only supports one type of IM application. > > +1 > > (thought I am fine either way - this does resolve the concerns I had) It's still not clear to me what the "construct" is here. Is it one of the following? 1. "Presence ID" -- a URI where you can find out whether I'm online or not (if you have appropriate permissions). Your MUA could used this to show a little green icon or other presence indicator next to my name in if I'm online. But you can't necessarily communicate with me this way, since this URI provides only presence information. We might as well use pres: URIs for this, since they're already defined in RFC 3859. 2. "Instant Messaging ID" or "IM ID" -- a URI where you can interact with me textually in (close to) real time. But you won't necessarily know whether I'm online or not (which, if you want to interact in real time, seems of dubious utility). We might as well use im: URIs for this, since they're already defined in RFC 3860. Also note that most existing IM services do not have URI schemes or even use DNS, so end users won't be able to include such addresses here -- only addresses for services based on the technologies registered here: http://www.iana.org/assignments/im-srv-labels 3. "Real Time Communications ID" or "RTC ID" -- a URI where you can interact with me using any sort of real time communication modality, whether it be text, voice, video, whiteboarding, or who knows what. Maybe you get presence this way, maybe you don't. Maybe you can send me a text message, maybe you can't. Maybe you can start a voice chat with me, maybe you can't. So how exactly can you interact with me if I include such a URI? Unknown. But this seems to be what folks here want. The in-use "Jabber-ID" header lets you know that you can IM with me and, if you have information based on a presence subscription, that you I'm online right now. So presence and IM are core "XMPP things". You might be able to do more based on some capabilities lookup, but those are the basics. Including a SIP URI would enable you to know that you can do "SIP things" with me, which might be the wonderful range of SIP things that are implemented and deployed (again based on capabilities discovery). It strikes me that real people know if they have a Jabber ID or if they have a SIP address. They may or may not know if they have a "Presence ID" since presence is a kind of plumbing that underlies all sorts of real time communication modalities. They may think they have a proper "IM ID" but they will be mightily frustrated once they figure out that they can't include their AIM Screen Name or ICQ number or Yahoo! ID, since those systems don't play nice with im: URIs. But I submit that real people certainly don't know if they have an "RTC ID" since the range of possible systems meeting the relevant (and still undefined) criteria is so broad as to be void for vagueness. The im: and pres: URIs are known quantities, if a bit obscure. XMPP URIs and SIP URIs are even better known, and map to technologies we have defined fairly well. But there is no RTC URI scheme, no requiremets document for generic RTC functionality (as we have RFC 2779 for IM and presence), and no clear construct here. So Cullen, when you say "+1" to Alexey's statement "I also don't see any particular reason for prohibiting direct use of XMPP or SIP URIs here", does that mean you're in favor of separate headers for XMPP URIs and SIP URIs, or does it mean that you would like to define a general-purpose "RTC ID" in which it would be allowable to plug in an XMPP URI, a SIP URI, or (presumably) other URIs for services or technologies (say, Skype) that meet some yet-to-be-defined criteria for real-time interaction? Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ --------------ms000104020900080003060905 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIYQDCC B3AwggbZoAMCAQICAQowDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEEBQAwgbAxCzAJBgNVBAYTAklMMQ8wDQYDVQQI EwZJc3JhZWwxDjAMBgNVBAcTBUVpbGF0MRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMRowGAYD VQQLExFDQSBBdXRob3JpdHkgRGVwLjEpMCcGA1UEAxMgRnJlZSBTU0wgQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlv biBBdXRob3JpdHkxITAfBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEmFkbWluQHN0YXJ0Y29tLm9yZzAeFw0wNTA0 MDUxNDUyMTNaFw0xMDA0MDQxNDUyMTNaMIGvMQswCQYDVQQGEwJJTDEPMA0GA1UECBMGSXNy YWVsMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSMwIQYDVQQLExpTZWN1cmUgQ2VydGlmaWNh dGUgU2lnbmluZzEvMC0GA1UEAxMmU3RhcnRDb20gQ2xhc3MgMyBQcmltYXJ5IEVtYWlsIEZy ZWUgQ0ExITAfBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEmFkbWluQHN0YXJ0Y29tLm9yZzCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcN 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