From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jan 01 14:22:35 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9mh8-0004jQ-CA; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 14:22:34 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J5V3R-00084o-Bu for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:43:53 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J5V3R-00084g-0R for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:43:53 -0500 Received: from mail.songbird.com ([208.184.79.10]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J5V3Q-0007yK-JT for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:43:52 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (mail.songbird.com [208.184.79.10]) by mail.songbird.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id lBKNhINx031500; Thu, 20 Dec 2007 15:43:19 -0800 Message-ID: <476AFBF5.80604@ninebynine.org> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:34:13 +0000 From: Graham Klyne User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anne van Kesteren Subject: Re: [Ietf-message-headers] HTTP header registration question References: <470BFA49.2070605@ninebynine.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 01 Jan 2008 14:22:34 -0500 Cc: ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Sorry for very delayed response -- this message got 'filed' in one of those dusty corners I only look into occasionally... Anne van Kesteren wrote: >> The standard of definition required will be higher for permanent >> registration. > > What are the requirements exactly? Not so much an exact requirement, but I would expect the general quality of specification to be comparable with that for any standard - sufficient for creating interoperable implementations, etc. For provisional registrations, a more general statement of intent can suffice. #g -- Graham Klyne For email: http://www.ninebynine.org/#Contact _______________________________________________ Ietf-message-headers mailing list Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jan 01 20:57:36 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9srO-0006NY-9M; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 20:57:34 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J9srN-0006NT-O1 for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 20:57:33 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9srN-0006NL-EI for ietf-message-headers@ietf.org; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 20:57:33 -0500 Received: from mtai05.charter.net ([209.225.8.185]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9srM-0001w6-PA for ietf-message-headers@ietf.org; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 20:57:33 -0500 Received: from aarprv04.charter.net ([10.20.200.74]) by mtai05.charter.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.00 201-2186-121-20061213) with ESMTP id <20080102015722.BJVL12551.mtai05.charter.net@aarprv04.charter.net>; Tue, 1 Jan 2008 20:57:22 -0500 Received: from mail.blilly.net ([24.177.38.219]) by aarprv04.charter.net with ESMTP id <20080102015719.UDHH17353.aarprv04.charter.net@mail.blilly.net>; Tue, 1 Jan 2008 20:57:19 -0500 Received: from marty.blilly.net (marty.blilly.net [192.168.99.98]) by mail.blilly.net with ESMTP id m021vIN6027176(8.13.6/8.13.6/mail.blilly.net /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.39 2007/12/15 09:48:20) ; Tue, 1 Jan 2008 20:57:19 -0500 From: Bruce Lilly Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 20:57:15 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 20070904.708012) References: <47308BA7.3080204@stpeter.im> <4730E37F.1020205@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <4730E37F.1020205@stpeter.im> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200801012057.17332@marty.blilly.net> X-Chzlrs: 0 X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: ff03b0075c3fc728d7d60a15b4ee1ad2 Cc: Subject: [Ietf-message-headers] draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txt etc. X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org N.B. replies directed to the ietf-message-headers [sic] mailing list. On Tuesday 06 November 2007 15:03:13 Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > Frank Ellermann wrote: > > 1 - why two drafts instead of one ? > > Because some people consider IM and presence to be fully separable > features, which is why we have both the pres: and im: URI schemes (as > defined in RFCs 3859 and 3860 respectively). See also RFC 2779. > > > 2 - who wants to publish pres URIs in email headers ? > > Presumably people who want to show presence icons next to the names of > message authors. You're getting decades ahead of yourself -- see below. > > 3 - what about Netnews ? ...and telnet and SIP and http... Are we to see additional drafts for schemes to cram this information into telnet sessions, web site traffic, telephone calls, etc.? Or maybe you'd like to add options to send that information in every IP packet...:-) On Tuesday 06 November 2007 16:58:23 Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > Gmail is an integrated service. What if you're using mutt or Thunderbird > or some random MUA and you want to show presence information about a > message author? With the proposed scheme, you would need to: 1. convince message authors to include such information via your scheme instead of or in addition to other mechanisms. 2. convince the authors of all MUAs used by those authors to support your scheme (so that the authors CAN include it per #1) 3. convince the authors of your MUA to support your scheme on your platform of choice (ask Frank about support for OS/2...) 4. wait a decade or two for users to upgrade to the revised versions of MUAs ...and it still won't help you if you have such information which arrived via another mechanism unless you also have a way to get that into your MUA (see below). Nor will it help you if the information is not current (also see below). On Wednesday 07 November 2007 18:49:05 Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > > Quoting the drafts: > > > > Because almost all human users of instant messaging systems are users > > of email systems, it can be helpful for such users to specify their > > (IM/presence) URIs in the email messages they author. > > > > Although IM and presence are separate domains of functionality, the > > proposed mail headers for them :- > > > > 1. provides a standard location for the exchange of such information But one which is specific to a component of an unrelated *protocol* rather than being associated with the *human* in question, and is inexplicably separate from established, standardized, and broadly-implemented protocol-independent mechanisms for providing such personal (i.e. not specific to the protocol used for transport of the information) information. > > 2. are associated with the author of the message or authors (plural)? -- see the RFC 2822 definition of the From field, which may specify multiple authors. Also see Resent-From and Sender and Reply-To. Now exactly which parts of which of these fields is the proposed information supposed to apply to? > But what is a Contact-ID? Any means by which you could contact me might > be included in that category -- email, telephone, voicemail, fax, post > office box, various IM addresses, IRC channels where I hang out, etc. ...all information which can be conveyed in the established, standardized (RFC 2426), broadly-implemented "vCard" mechanism, with which I assume you are familiar (as it is mentioned in RFC 3921). Why not simply put the desired information (as URIs or whatever) in a vCard, which can be transferred as a MIME attachment to email (and which specifies within the vCard itself precisely to whom the information applies, rather than depending on guessing to which of multiple authors, sender, etc. it might apply), or via transfer by http, ftp, or carrier pigeon (by way of any physical digital media such as flash memory, magnetic or optical media, or even ASR-33 punched paper tape). And if one wishes to make use of that information in, say, Thunderbird (which already has vCard support, as do many other MUAs), then you can do so quite easily and it doesn't matter whether the vCard information came in an email message or was imported from a file transported by some other mechanism. If you wish to make use of the information outside of email, it is only necessary that that environment support the established, standardized vCard mechanism. Authors who wish to include such information can do so by putting it in their vCard and sending it (e.g. by email WITHOUT(N.B.!) having to wait for MUAs to have special-purpose support added). Message header fields, like IP packet header fields, ought to convey information about the message (or packet) which they are part of; not random unrelated stuff. It is already the case that a simple short text message of a few dozen bytes of message text body may be accompanied by several kilobytes of message header text. Most of that information is (supposed to be) related to that message. Personal contact information belongs in a vCard or something like it, not in message headers or IP packet headers unless it is specifically and directly related to the particular message or IP packet in question. Another reason to put such information in a vCard and NOT in a message header field: messages may be archived for years or decades; contact information may change frequently. If your scheme were to come to pass and you were viewing an archived message a decade from now, would it not be likely to fail to provide the supposed (i.e. then-current, not outdated) contact/presence information? Per contra, if the information comes from a recent vCard (rather than from the header of an old message), would that not more likely contain up-to-date information? After all, it is a relatively simple matter for a recipient to update information from a vCard, whereas it is impractical to alter message header fields of every email message that a particular person has sent when some personal contact information changes. The three proposals (jabber-id and the current two) strike me as a symptom of "let's invent a header field to do..." syndrome rather than a careful and studied consideration of *appropriate* mechanisms to convey the information concerned. _______________________________________________ Ietf-message-headers mailing list Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jan 02 11:34:46 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA6YI-00059Z-7w; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 11:34:46 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JA6YG-00059U-VR for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 11:34:44 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA6YG-000590-LL for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 11:34:44 -0500 Received: from dizzyd.com ([207.210.219.225]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JA6YE-00057V-Vf for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 11:34:44 -0500 Received: from wrk225.corp.jabber.com (dencfw1.jabber.com [207.182.164.5]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by dizzyd.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 207EB4049C for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 09:34:40 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <477BBD1E.3030405@stpeter.im> Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 09:34:38 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1.9) Gecko/20071031 Thunderbird/2.0.0.9 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org References: <47308BA7.3080204@stpeter.im> <4730E37F.1020205@stpeter.im> <200801012057.17332@marty.blilly.net> In-Reply-To: <200801012057.17332@marty.blilly.net> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 202a3ece0492a8c7e7c8672d5214398f Cc: Subject: [Ietf-message-headers] Re: draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txt etc. X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0399072850==" Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --===============0399072850== Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms020208090604050009090800" This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms020208090604050009090800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bruce Lilly wrote: > N.B. replies directed to the ietf-message-headers [sic] mailing list. > > On Tuesday 06 November 2007 15:03:13 Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> Frank Ellermann wrote: > >>> 1 - why two drafts instead of one ? >> Because some people consider IM and presence to be fully separable >> features, which is why we have both the pres: and im: URI schemes (as >> defined in RFCs 3859 and 3860 respectively). See also RFC 2779. >> >>> 2 - who wants to publish pres URIs in email headers ? >> Presumably people who want to show presence icons next to the names of >> message authors. > > You're getting decades ahead of yourself -- see below. Apple Mail has had a feature like this for years (based on information in the address book, not a mail header), so I don't think I'm getting decades ahead of myself. In fact perhaps I'm several years behind the market. 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Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers --===============0399072850==-- From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jan 02 16:19:27 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAAzl-0008Kx-8D; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:19:25 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JAAzj-0008Kg-OC for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:19:23 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAAzj-0008KY-ES for ietf-message-headers@ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:19:23 -0500 Received: from mtao03.charter.net ([209.225.8.188]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAAzj-00027s-42 for ietf-message-headers@ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:19:23 -0500 Received: from aarprv06.charter.net ([10.20.200.76]) by mtao03.charter.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.00 201-2186-121-20061213) with ESMTP id <20080102211912.JJYD19023.mtao03.charter.net@aarprv06.charter.net> for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 16:19:12 -0500 Received: from mail.blilly.net ([24.177.38.219]) by aarprv06.charter.net with ESMTP id <20080102211912.YVAM14098.aarprv06.charter.net@mail.blilly.net> for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 16:19:12 -0500 Received: from mail.blilly.net (wally.blilly.net [192.168.99.70]) by mail.blilly.net with ESMTP id m02LJCfH000999(8.13.6/8.13.6/mail.blilly.net /etc/sendmail.mc.mail 1.39 2007/12/15 09:48:20) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) ; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 16:19:12 -0500 Received: from wally.blilly.net (wally.blilly.net [192.168.99.70]) by mail.blilly.net with ESMTP id m02LJBTi000998(8.13.6/8.13.6/mail.blilly.net /etc/mail/submit.mc 1.10 2007/02/04 18:46:08) (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) ; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 16:19:12 -0500 From: Bruce Lilly Organization: Bruce Lilly To: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ietf-message-headers] Re: draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txt etc. Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 16:19:10 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 20070831.706792) References: <47308BA7.3080204@stpeter.im> <200801012057.17332@marty.blilly.net> <477BBD1E.3030405@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: <477BBD1E.3030405@stpeter.im> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200801021619.10544@mail.blilly.net> X-Chzlrs: 0 X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org On 2008-01-02, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > Bruce Lilly wrote: > > You're getting decades ahead of yourself -- see below. > > Apple Mail has had a feature like this for years (based on information > in the address book, not a mail header), so I don't think I'm getting > decades ahead of myself. In fact perhaps I'm several years behind the > market. You may have missed my point, which is precisely that using an address book or other repository which can be easily updated via VCards (or LDAP, etc.) is much more likely to yield results quickly as opposed to convincing software authors to support special-purpose code to extract unrelated data from message header fields, waiting for such special-purpose code to be written, waiting for users to upgrade, etc. _______________________________________________ Ietf-message-headers mailing list Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jan 02 16:30:11 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JABAB-0003Ov-13; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:30:11 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JABA9-0003NK-3w for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:30:09 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JABA8-0003NC-Px for ietf-message-headers@ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:30:08 -0500 Received: from dizzyd.com ([207.210.219.225]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JABA6-0002Rz-E8 for ietf-message-headers@ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:30:08 -0500 Received: from wrk225.corp.jabber.com (dencfw1.jabber.com [207.182.164.5]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by dizzyd.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D7024049C; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 14:29:53 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <477C0250.9020603@stpeter.im> Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 14:29:52 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1.9) Gecko/20071031 Thunderbird/2.0.0.9 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce Lilly Subject: Re: [Ietf-message-headers] Re: draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txt etc. References: <47308BA7.3080204@stpeter.im> <200801012057.17332@marty.blilly.net> <477BBD1E.3030405@stpeter.im> <200801021619.10544@mail.blilly.net> In-Reply-To: <200801021619.10544@mail.blilly.net> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e8c5db863102a3ada84e0cd52a81a79e Cc: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1583797067==" Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --===============1583797067== Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms040603070502020306090209" This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms040603070502020306090209 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bruce Lilly wrote: > On 2008-01-02, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: >> Bruce Lilly wrote: > >>> You're getting decades ahead of yourself -- see below. >> Apple Mail has had a feature like this for years (based on information >> in the address book, not a mail header), so I don't think I'm getting >> decades ahead of myself. In fact perhaps I'm several years behind the >> market. > > You may have missed my point, which is precisely that using an address book > or other repository which can be easily updated via VCards (or LDAP, etc.) > is much more likely to yield results quickly as opposed to convincing > software authors to support special-purpose code to extract unrelated > data from message header fields, waiting for such special-purpose code > to be written, waiting for users to upgrade, etc. You may have missed the point of the Jabber-ID header, which we defined so that the community of Jabber users could experiment with this usage. Whether that usage is the most effective way to tie together an email identity with a Jabber identity is another issue. We started to define the pres and im headers as a more general approach, but it could be that neither the general approach nor the specific Jabber approach is needed or even desirable. Thanks for the feedback -- I'll keep it in mind if I ever decide to pursue these I-Ds further (which I rather doubt). 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Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers --===============1583797067==-- From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jan 02 23:51:41 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAI3Q-0000jy-Sx; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 23:51:40 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JAI3P-0000js-8X for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 23:51:39 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAI3O-0000jk-Ux for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 23:51:38 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JAI3N-0000Wz-9d for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 23:51:38 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JAI3K-0000Rz-MK for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 04:51:34 +0000 Received: from c-134-88-215.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.88.215]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 04:51:34 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-134-88-215.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 04:51:34 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 05:51:13 +0100 Organization: Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <47308BA7.3080204@stpeter.im><200801012057.17332@marty.blilly.net> <477BBD1E.3030405@stpeter.im><200801021619.10544@mail.blilly.net> <477C0250.9020603@stpeter.im> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-88-215.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Cc: Subject: [Ietf-message-headers] Re: draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txtetc. X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > You may have missed the point of the Jabber-ID header, which we > defined so that the community of Jabber users could experiment > with this usage.=20 [...] > Thanks for the feedback -- I'll keep it in mind if I ever decide > to pursue these I-Ds further (which I rather doubt). IMO the Jabber-ID header field makes sense, it has a modern syntax, and might be better than attaching a complete vCard to a message: Apparently the optional "profile" associated with a JID is more or less the same as a vCard. The Last Called Jabber-ID draft (you have already fixed a minor FWS issue) only needs IESG approval and an RFC number. Whatever backchamber conspiracy "persuaded" you to "withdraw" it - but if it was the "DEA directorate" I'll scream. Frank _______________________________________________ Ietf-message-headers mailing list Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jan 03 10:50:42 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JASLB-00049B-Rj; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 10:50:41 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JASLA-000491-Mp for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 10:50:40 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JASLA-00048t-Cy for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 10:50:40 -0500 Received: from dizzyd.com ([207.210.219.225]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JASL8-0001Vj-3W for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 10:50:40 -0500 Received: from dialup-4.227.195.228.Dial1.Denver1.Level3.net (dialup-4.227.195.228.Dial1.Denver1.Level3.net [4.227.195.228]) (Authenticated sender: stpeter) by dizzyd.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2744A4049C; Thu, 3 Jan 2008 08:50:24 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <477D043D.80607@stpeter.im> Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 08:50:21 -0700 From: Peter Saint-Andre User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1.9) Gecko/20071031 Thunderbird/2.0.0.9 Mnenhy/0.7.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [Ietf-message-headers] Re: draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txtetc. References: <47308BA7.3080204@stpeter.im><200801012057.17332@marty.blilly.net> <477BBD1E.3030405@stpeter.im><200801021619.10544@mail.blilly.net> <477C0250.9020603@stpeter.im> In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ded6070f7eed56e10c4f4d0d5043d9c7 Cc: ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0151303153==" Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --===============0151303153== Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms050607030304000503060003" This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms050607030304000503060003 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank Ellermann wrote: > Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > >> You may have missed the point of the Jabber-ID header, which we >> defined so that the community of Jabber users could experiment >> with this usage. > [...] >> Thanks for the feedback -- I'll keep it in mind if I ever decide >> to pursue these I-Ds further (which I rather doubt). > > IMO the Jabber-ID header field makes sense, it has a modern syntax, > and might be better than attaching a complete vCard to a message: > > Apparently the optional "profile" associated with a JID is more or > less the same as a vCard. The Last Called Jabber-ID draft (you > have already fixed a minor FWS issue) only needs IESG approval and > an RFC number. Whatever backchamber conspiracy "persuaded" you to > "withdraw" it - but if it was the "DEA directorate" I'll scream. On 2007-12-04 I posted an updated version incorporating your FWS and Netnews suggestions, and per my request the IANA has added the header to the provisional registry (RFC status is not required for registration, in accordance with RFC 3864). It is an open question whether I will ever request a standards action regarding this specification. As to the DEA, I don't think the Drug Enforcement Administration was involved. ;-) Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ --------------ms050607030304000503060003 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIYQDCC B3AwggbZoAMCAQICAQowDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEEBQAwgbAxCzAJBgNVBAYTAklMMQ8wDQYDVQQI EwZJc3JhZWwxDjAMBgNVBAcTBUVpbGF0MRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMRowGAYD VQQLExFDQSBBdXRob3JpdHkgRGVwLjEpMCcGA1UEAxMgRnJlZSBTU0wgQ2VydGlmaWNhdGlv biBBdXRob3JpdHkxITAfBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWEmFkbWluQHN0YXJ0Y29tLm9yZzAeFw0wNTA0 MDUxNDUyMTNaFw0xMDA0MDQxNDUyMTNaMIGvMQswCQYDVQQGEwJJTDEPMA0GA1UECBMGSXNy YWVsMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSMwIQYDVQQLExpTZWN1cmUgQ2VydGlmaWNh dGUgU2lnbmluZzEvMC0GA1UEAxMmU3RhcnRDb20gQ2xhc3MgMyBQcmltYXJ5IEVtYWlsIEZy 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_______________________________________________ Ietf-message-headers mailing list Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers --===============0151303153==-- From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jan 03 12:04:52 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JATUy-0001gf-4u; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 12:04:52 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JATUw-0001gD-JN for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 12:04:50 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JATUw-0001g1-98 for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 12:04:50 -0500 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JATUs-0002we-Vb for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 12:04:50 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JATUm-0005bb-Fp for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 17:04:41 +0000 Received: from c-134-88-215.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.88.215]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 17:04:40 +0000 Received: from nobody by c-134-88-215.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 03 Jan 2008 17:04:40 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 18:04:17 +0100 Organization: Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <47308BA7.3080204@stpeter.im><200801012057.17332@marty.blilly.net> <477BBD1E.3030405@stpeter.im><200801021619.10544@mail.blilly.net> <477C0250.9020603@stpeter.im> <477D043D.80607@stpeter.im> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-88-215.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Cc: Subject: [Ietf-message-headers] Re: draft-saintandre-header-pres-00.txtetc. X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Frank Ellermann List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Peter Saint-Andre wrote: OE claims you wrote nothing, phhhtt... fetching MIME part: > per my request the IANA has added the header to the=20 > provisional registry (RFC status is not required for > registration, in accordance with RFC 3864). Yes, but a provisional registration based on an expired draft is "suboptimal", a permanent registration based on *some kind of public standard* (not necessarily an RFC) is better. =20 My "marauder's map for the IETF labyrinth" (aka Brian's=20 procdoc ION) indicates that XMPP is an SDO with some kind of IETF liaison, an "XEP" might be good enough. Okay, if Graham is no Harry Potter or XMPP fan you need an RFC :-) > It is an open question whether I will ever request a=20 > standards action regarding this specification. Maybe discuss it with the XMPP community or XMPP Council or whatever it takes - the SPF organization is far simpler, we have only one RFC to guard, or four counting those that we never wanted. If nobody needs the header field anymore don't waste time with it. > I don't think the Drug Enforcement Administration was > involved. ;-) Good, and what I had in mind doesn't exist anymore, better. Frank --=20 Fixed IAB & DEA links on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARID _______________________________________________ Ietf-message-headers mailing list Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers From ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jan 26 19:34:01 2008 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIvTD-00014M-Sg; Sat, 26 Jan 2008 19:33:59 -0500 Received: from ietf-message-headers by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1JIvTC-000147-On for ietf-message-headers-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 26 Jan 2008 19:33:58 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIvTC-00013z-FD for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 26 Jan 2008 19:33:58 -0500 Received: from sam.opera.com ([213.236.208.81] helo=smtp.opera.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JIvTA-0005mx-0e for ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 26 Jan 2008 19:33:58 -0500 Received: from annevk-t60.oslo.opera.com (ip4da3f3cb.direct-adsl.nl.0.163.77.in-addr.arpa [77.163.243.203] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp.opera.com (8.13.4/8.13.4/Debian-3sarge3) with ESMTP id m0R0XrYu005665 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2008 00:33:54 GMT Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 01:37:59 +0100 To: "ietf-message-headers@lists.ietf.org" From: "Anne van Kesteren" Organization: Opera Software ASA Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=utf-8 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.24 (Linux) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.1/5564/Sun Jan 27 00:12:26 2008 on smtp.opera.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Cc: Subject: [Ietf-message-headers] Method-Check-Max-Age X-BeenThere: ietf-message-headers@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion list for header fields used in Internet messaging applications." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ietf-message-headers-bounces@ietf.org Hi, Based on feedback we renamed Method-Check-Expires to Method-Check-Max-Age and instead of an HTTP-date it now takes delta-seconds (RFC 2616). http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/access-control/ Can I simply e-mail IANA with this update or shall we go for another two weeks review here? I'm good either way :-) By the way, thanks for the help before in getting the headers provisionally registered, all worked out: http://iana.org/assignments/message-headers/prov-headers.html Kind regards, -- Anne van Kesteren _______________________________________________ Ietf-message-headers mailing list Ietf-message-headers@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-message-headers