From nobody Mon Oct 16 14:48:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8683132025 for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 14:48:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=Wmz0B5+F; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com header.b=reNStvQo Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qhk7D618ZNCO for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 14:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C785713457F for ; Mon, 16 Oct 2017 14:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([197.226.212.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v9GLmIrW008823 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 16 Oct 2017 14:48:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1508190510; x=1508276910; bh=OBIYb04mbjssDBy9fGCsjK6tZHuGQYfxS0ATZ3qhGC8=; h=Date:To:From:Subject; b=Wmz0B5+FCkYjdVoztlDJ8VwVyvS3vG+3Zwt7+RqZrGDTrxUtBSvRRDr6c+BG7Bqha SlWk3yt7uLfKzSF8DAAg5GEexjNmX/6kA48XAD/RX9TXe47c48z000SPL6jC0K1YW8 ax6qpQMv9iiPbY5H/uNMZOpkXgge208aMyBbiKk0= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1508190510; x=1508276910; i=@elandsys.com; bh=OBIYb04mbjssDBy9fGCsjK6tZHuGQYfxS0ATZ3qhGC8=; h=Date:To:From:Subject; b=reNStvQoTm+IcIf9D4IU1/pe4IazkFi29zORs0YQqzbfAraRBwkUTGuy2wVoUOjd5 bpmvHLT/yRlsK+HsUxG4Zn4W6T9m4+R7tppRgs6hoC5vu71DwJj3JYBStvFfoYEyt1 2zlYfU/AF2ly9myRtEbLE8l1SuAxAvWSkDWPlAl4= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20171016135236.12dcaa60@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 14:46:35 -0700 To: Rich Salz , ietf-nomcom@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" X-BeenThere: ietf-nomcom@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of possible revisions to the NomCom process List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 21:48:34 -0000 Hi Rich, There is a mailing list to discuss [1] about NomCom. Is being selected as Area Director about winning? The persons whom you are running against are the persons with whom you will have to work with over the next few years. They may have expertise which complement yours. What is the probability of having diversity from a pool of attendees? Although the selection of the pool is random, that does not encourage diversity. I suggest going over the results from several years ago and to see what prompted a change over the last few years. The IESG already has a liaison on NomCom. What good would it do for the IETF Chair to appoint one or more persons to NomCom? I'll comment about some of your responses to the questions. Will there be a conflict of interest if you are actively involved in OpenSSL? How will you manage that? What's your opinion about allow "peeking" into TLS? :-) Should a Security Area Director be a "SecDir" reviewer or should he/she be there to provide guidance? Regards, S. Moonesamy 1. https://github.com/richsalz/ietf-nomcom-2017 From nobody Tue Oct 17 06:16:41 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A00621332CD for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 06:16:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gpjvM9p8ephV for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 06:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com 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usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1263.000; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 09:16:21 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: S Moonesamy , "ietf-nomcom@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Experiment in "full transparency" Thread-Index: AQHTRsiE55WWCJX6hk63Iqd9YTsfKKLoSbsA Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 13:16:20 +0000 Message-ID: <3E158B61-DCF7-485C-B350-DA14B2B8CBDA@akamai.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20171016135236.12dcaa60@elandnews.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20171016135236.12dcaa60@elandnews.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.26.0.170902 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.46.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-17_10:, , signatures=0 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IGRvbuKAmXQgZ2V0IHR3byBiaXRlcyBhdCB0aGUgYXBwbGUgKGxhd3llciBzYXlpbmcpLiAgSGFk IEkgZ290dGVuIHRoaXMgcG9zdGVkIGJlZm9yZSwgdGhlIG9wZW4gcmV2aWV3IHByb2JhYmx5IHdv dWxkIGhhdmUgY2F1Z2h0IHRoYXQgYnVnLiA6KQ0KDQogICAgDQogICAgUmVnYXJkcywNCiAgICBT LiBNb29uZXNhbXkNCg0KVGhhbmsgeW91IHZlcnkgbXVjaCBmb3IgdGFraW5nIHRoZSB0aW1lIHRv IHdyaXRlISAgSGFwcHkgdG8gY29udGludWUgdGhpcyB0aHJlYWQuDQoNCg== From nobody Tue Oct 17 07:35:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C217132D8A for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 07:35:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no 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Malis" Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 10:35:31 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: NomComDiscussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113d02503bda3c055bbf0a5a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" X-BeenThere: ietf-nomcom@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of possible revisions to the NomCom process List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 14:35:55 -0000 --001a113d02503bda3c055bbf0a5a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rich, > Is that a public list, or is it for the nomcom members? I don=E2=80=99t = recall > seeing it mentioned in any of the email about a public list, but maybe I > missed it. I was thinking of something more like the =E2=80=9C99attendee= s=E2=80=9D type of > list, or the wg-chairs lists where people who are interested in the > *process* or perhaps just this year=E2=80=99s crop of nominees could talk= about > it. Is that what this list is for? > nomcom@ietf.org is a public list, see https://www.ietf.org/ mailman/listinfo/ietf-nomcom for details and to join the fun. Cheers, Andy --001a113d02503bda3c055bbf0a5a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ri= ch,
=C2=A0
Is= that a public list, or is it for the nomcom members?=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t= recall seeing it mentioned in any of the email about a public list, but ma= ybe I missed it.=C2=A0 I was thinking of something more like the =E2=80=9C9= 9attendees=E2=80=9D type of list, or the wg-chairs lists where people who a= re interested in the *process* or perhaps just this year=E2=80=99s crop of = nominees could talk about it.=C2=A0 Is that what this list is for?

<= div>nomcom@ietf.org is a public list, see=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf= o/ietf-nomcom for details and to join the fun.

Cheers,
Andy



<= /div> --001a113d02503bda3c055bbf0a5a-- From nobody Tue Oct 17 07:37:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 751D9134184 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 07:37:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qilIL7nRxbQY for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 07:37:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x234.google.com (mail-oi0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EDE90134212 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 07:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x234.google.com with SMTP id h200so3277125oib.4 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 07:36:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=y+iO3oWKqbNZZll69/SUJptcEmY9j673pKHgdt/a2sI=; b=FvxpC19ZQ1eMn1tM1fHKOloUSTqN6LWliWWdEKSw7bNbcaBv9krBEZLePsVjft1b+3 d6UqE2z5GCzlYe63zde2EBqClc18YqBwZ6QqYZakJce9dmkrgpptIRv4pjmFvA6s/TQO R7ruqr6qE6hc6PI5B/gF3YxqwcUNKRDEMch9VBzX4QFxAAgjpPmQtAUmTjB061NBEQhf qdq81+uiFe5IFrSbWna3Q8eZT4418fjfL9uFg5rbnwdvwxy+L4ftVq7HVb1Xc9K1OIZf rehAy5FsSTZlzT0a5MXIB8r3IS5voXimmXo2VvqbJju5X2jT6dIH2qTBuQZVgI3SvvKg dZzQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=y+iO3oWKqbNZZll69/SUJptcEmY9j673pKHgdt/a2sI=; b=MiBkUbT/79KEnyyjLSAAQ9l5YrLLtchxP1GOzCpMvuPnpvazkPU7uCFkiHMW28l3b3 RopXcQRxf6i+im2MwaEqgI5FS28Bb7m4cK9A3NK81FeCNnrz9mYYeWyW9RpAvgRomZ5T 1I1sEPaPi3K3th35LrBjevbOlxgGjYRBPNVClXB0S11YXPomQHn7ByOYPnbDUIfa4FSG O3JPE0KEd/WrTd6qxxWFyescVeobbxepZqV2cY0GtysKMW4yL6zCRIaNNRplu9EQptxF 41y9OEeU7r0dZ220xDnjGuT8jH4PGldopbcnilE6LBYWaRNslVjsLlXSLGKcUX4frSf5 gZyw== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaVRdGGBMxwNq1O0OYjQb8XH+X0jgFYuuNCA8i2oeQ9xlGCQpfR4 UV1hFOBSfPkgYC9fTI7NKGn2JnjJ2QGKKIOL7RU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+SEl5MV5l0MySml5VlKrFvR/njJ8IgqbZH167tHT77RRTrYYjKRwj1bi07JOi04UzQF7jAv7zCTAF2bXgKmPOI= X-Received: by 10.157.81.141 with SMTP id y13mr2200789otg.51.1508251007384; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 07:36:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.202.171.195 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 07:36:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20171016135236.12dcaa60@elandnews.com> <3E158B61-DCF7-485C-B350-DA14B2B8CBDA@akamai.com> From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 10:36:27 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: NomComDiscussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403043d7d6c87025c055bbf0d50" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" X-BeenThere: ietf-nomcom@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of possible revisions to the NomCom process List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 14:37:08 -0000 --f403043d7d6c87025c055bbf0d50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Whoops, I fat-fingered. meant ietf-nomcom@ietf.org, not nomcom@ietf.org. Cheers, Andy On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 10:35 AM, Andrew G. Malis wrote= : > Rich, > > >> Is that a public list, or is it for the nomcom members? I don=E2=80=99t= recall >> seeing it mentioned in any of the email about a public list, but maybe I >> missed it. I was thinking of something more like the =E2=80=9C99attende= es=E2=80=9D type of >> list, or the wg-chairs lists where people who are interested in the >> *process* or perhaps just this year=E2=80=99s crop of nominees could tal= k about >> it. Is that what this list is for? >> > > nomcom@ietf.org is a public list, see https://www.ietf.org/mailm > an/listinfo/ietf-nomcom for details and to join the fun. > > Cheers, > Andy > > > > --f403043d7d6c87025c055bbf0d50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Whoops, I fat-fingered. meant ietf-nomcom@ietf.org, not nomcom@ietf.org.

Cheers,
Andy
=

O= n Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 10:35 AM, Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
Rich,
=C2=A0
Is that a = public list, or is it for the nomcom members?=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t recall = seeing it mentioned in any of the email about a public list, but maybe I mi= ssed it.=C2=A0 I was thinking of something more like the =E2=80=9C99attende= es=E2=80=9D type of list, or the wg-chairs lists where people who are inter= ested in the *process* or perhaps just this year=E2=80=99s crop of nominees= could talk about it.=C2=A0 Is that what this list is for?

<= div>nomcom@ietf.org is a public list, see=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf= o/ietf-nomcom for details and to join the fun.

Cheers,
Andy



<= /div>

--f403043d7d6c87025c055bbf0d50-- From nobody Tue Oct 17 08:00:30 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA67F13420F for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:00:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iP7cT7n_BU6A for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x236.google.com (mail-pf0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DFC05134239 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x236.google.com with SMTP id b79so1538160pfk.5 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:00:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=hrx+WJR2c/6pgcOv+bT4oTs6lJGVMMVG1vGRImgXCp8=; b=B9lyOfaGEdqFreoM9MEdLBALV76Wp4vQfxQGtRNhqliDdWGb5BiGi9mHwFtFzznmDt FCI/zuKKfrTWj1EMzlSU2lF0a94nZg5Hbnt3EUcbFdUu69gKJCUFanRUbydtGTTeTWmo isa/jfNrQneN56XHm1rRMPy9k/gj9k1yn0Z7xdi55WAEK5yWfZ2zJH+YEjNkL3+SWPWI d0Khe1d8Y/rsIXYWqtBcJXIMg/ihvRg1u02Itqa3knrxKz4rK7h8I7PwArRdX9spZT78 kSGUem4/r3Bfgjd0+FtpH5jGYWV61EgAtvfkhPerj8Cf90t53O15OI6WTulMlxUf/XLZ TJ6g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=hrx+WJR2c/6pgcOv+bT4oTs6lJGVMMVG1vGRImgXCp8=; b=B/bgbaabtQJqCVLFWnj9yPwxC/NLWagZhpT5g+dJSyAk+JsxwRg9Cc5M9YxF+tjdbU oYJeCzs7eJZ+WBKYKK7Ax3j5nYZkAcRuG2C+PKYl7AKoSB1NQOo7M1FOhRzcRFgUHHZi KRsRQrBjainNa1WRY8qDBsnR/ZicfGL4RVe6DC1jSoIvvgviTPdNsyV1xNYO2Rbl4aGP ow/5TWs5u7egYjrHHL9VAWX/goWu3VPTdzoSadPoykssyVkhtEU4x+ioH6L3CdJ6VSku gddvyTMa3h4EenTwk8oxitzQDAcnmxQdh+HY/QRxOBLuExOOiRxx90ouoLnJU/cD2If/ 6knQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaUfT6sE8X7oeeBg7IBN6+UQFE0JpEvY6poApAUXyWXLz+XMbAp6 o7vlbt/xfqMNgj2DICLotZyK8fFWqzDfz63Nzjc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+R0fxT4bQEcQ0Zpum+Uq8ToqeFNTVSm3Fegu5kWS9QDd8OPuVjNN8GMg23ofuUVjQEoKDlwM6p3pt5phuID8ZI= X-Received: by 10.84.160.226 with SMTP id v31mr6169631plg.302.1508252417143; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:00:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.186.194 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 07:59:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 10:59:36 -0400 Message-ID: To: ietf-nomcom@ietf.org, "Salz, Rich" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" X-BeenThere: ietf-nomcom@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of possible revisions to the NomCom process List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 15:00:25 -0000 Hello, Since Rich's submission includes comments from our private conversation, I'll rehash the conversation to clarify my the points I made with some (not all) background on my thinking. I had asked Rich what he was interested to do as AD. He responded that he would close down I2NSF first. As responsible AD for that WG, I was surprised and tried to explain the value of the work as it probably wasn't an area of expertise for him. As such, my response started off with something along the lines of customers brought that work into the IETF and we rarely get customers with a problem coming. Then I explained the value of the work that is coming from the group with an example of a draft that was adopted shortly after we spoke. The draft automates provisioning of IPsec sessions within a hosted service provider environment. Many similar drafts will follow to remotely provision security services. Side note: having been a CISO and been responsible for enterprise security, being able to provision your security infrastructure and deploy security controls for your hosted environments will be a big step forward for many. The enterprises ability to generate reports on their security controls will help for their internal security assessments as well as internal/external audits. I would hope any new AD would take the time to understand work they may be managing before making decisions to close it down. Maybe he would do that, but it might be a question to dig into more. Then I explained that with new work comes new people to the IETF. In the case of I2NSF, they are engaging in multiple WGs and that's a really positive thing. Having customers engaged early in the process will only improve the outcome. Then I went into numbers and apparently, that's what stuck in Rich's mind and not that I see the work of I2NSF as valuable. With 10 new people for a WG across 130 some odd WGs, we have over 1000 active people contributing to the IETF. It does bring in new people as as work closes down, others leave. IMO, it's great that some people engaging in new WGs understand the IETF way and begin to contribute in other WGs, review work of others so they in turn have their work reviewed and improved. In "full transparency", that's just a few of my thoughts on this complicated topic. -- Best regards, Kathleen From nobody Tue Oct 17 08:18:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6856E13420E for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:18:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.011 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DJ2UnXzGWkR1 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23A65132D22 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0122331.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id v9HFI3TT024000; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 16:18:10 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=p1nOPDTOKPi2n6Jfw1PXPFDg3yfSRcnOkZlMMKrZxPQ=; b=WSVUmBSai1hFi+21KXNjWlCljXzQOgHiLDsptZujhgWKRPHOOG3KuUMyJUn7wVljYVH9 XaedL8rpYshBTNpcUqPeceb3hjzZTjdz5MpDwAiXyxeXiVVmgJ8speunZtJ8Vx1t7nSk 5bUXqT/XzxCgqYX7dayRegGB58iO9RDbHTW+7Lak4Ifbh66O2UM+kRDUI3XV9dhBfTvZ ba6qYM0AZC/zEZ/7bnMQxx6goUItbnaiHELlhQWjPPu5vQPAsAgNT65k6RAFkP9TGk+U v/yhrdgjR8f7oQ+UuauZAFqLFGw1mzaNa+2DNYv7rUJ3TQcuROuRvBOkXChX+wv32nVu WA== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint2 (prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com [184.51.33.19]) by mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2dngpbgjj7-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 17 Oct 2017 16:18:10 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id v9HFH1XF028330; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 11:18:09 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.32]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2dkdwu90hk-3 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 17 Oct 2017 11:18:09 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.105) by usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.65) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 11:18:05 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.105) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 11:18:05 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1263.000; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 11:18:05 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: "Andrew G. Malis" CC: NomComDiscussion Thread-Topic: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" Thread-Index: AQHTRsiE55WWCJX6hk63Iqd9YTsfKKLoSbsAgAAWIICAAABCgIAAC6KA Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 15:18:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20171016135236.12dcaa60@elandnews.com> <3E158B61-DCF7-485C-B350-DA14B2B8CBDA@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.26.0.170902 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.39.87] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_FF365C9F6CE141A582BBF15CFB748492akamaicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-17_11:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx 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SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 11:20:09 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1263.000; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 11:20:09 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Kathleen Moriarty , "ietf-nomcom@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Experiment in "full transparency" Thread-Index: AQHTR1inDnNd28hDxEu7OgqXzvQ1YKLoazQA Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 15:20:09 +0000 Message-ID: <51CD0D35-1B13-45AE-8B99-8525645B3606@akamai.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.26.0.170902 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.39.87] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-17_11:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1710170215 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-17_11:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1710170215 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" X-BeenThere: ietf-nomcom@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of possible revisions to the NomCom process List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 15:20:18 -0000 S2F0aGxlZW4sDQoNCkkgYXBvbG9naXplIGlmIEkgZW1iYXJyYXNzZWQgeW91IGluIGFueSB3YXku DQoNCk9uIDEwLzE3LzE3LCAxMTowMCBBTSwgIkthdGhsZWVuIE1vcmlhcnR5IiA8a2F0aGxlZW4u bW9yaWFydHkuaWV0ZkBnbWFpbC5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQogICAgSGVsbG8sDQogICAgDQogICAg U2luY2UgUmljaCdzIHN1Ym1pc3Npb24gaW5jbHVkZXMgY29tbWVudHMgZnJvbSBvdXIgcHJpdmF0 ZQ0KICAgIGNvbnZlcnNhdGlvbiwgSSdsbCByZWhhc2ggdGhlIGNvbnZlcnNhdGlvbiB0byBjbGFy aWZ5IG15IHRoZSBwb2ludHMgSQ0KICAgIG1hZGUgd2l0aCBzb21lIChub3QgYWxsKSBiYWNrZ3Jv dW5kIG9uIG15IHRoaW5raW5nLg0KICAgIA0KICAgIEkgaGFkIGFza2VkIFJpY2ggd2hhdCBoZSB3 YXMgaW50ZXJlc3RlZCB0byBkbyBhcyBBRC4gIEhlIHJlc3BvbmRlZA0KICAgIHRoYXQgaGUgd291 bGQgY2xvc2UgZG93biBJMk5TRiBmaXJzdC4gIEFzIHJlc3BvbnNpYmxlIEFEIGZvciB0aGF0IFdH LA0KICAgIEkgd2FzIHN1cnByaXNlZCBhbmQgdHJpZWQgdG8gZXhwbGFpbiB0aGUgdmFsdWUgb2Yg dGhlIHdvcmsgYXMgaXQNCiAgICBwcm9iYWJseSB3YXNuJ3QgYW4gYXJlYSBvZiBleHBlcnRpc2Ug Zm9yIGhpbS4gIEFzIHN1Y2gsIG15IHJlc3BvbnNlDQogICAgc3RhcnRlZCBvZmYgd2l0aCBzb21l 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charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" X-BeenThere: ietf-nomcom@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of possible revisions to the NomCom process List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 15:27:22 -0000 Rich, It was a misquote and I'm not embarrassed as I never said we should start up new WGs that don't have value. I felt it was important to clarify since my thoughts are very different from your statement. I do believe in the work of the WGs for which I am the responsible AD and have spent the time to understand the importance of their work. Best, Kathleen On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 11:20 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: > Kathleen, > > I apologize if I embarrassed you in any way. > > On 10/17/17, 11:00 AM, "Kathleen Moriarty" wrote: > > Hello, > > Since Rich's submission includes comments from our private > conversation, I'll rehash the conversation to clarify my the points I > made with some (not all) background on my thinking. > > I had asked Rich what he was interested to do as AD. He responded > that he would close down I2NSF first. As responsible AD for that WG, > I was surprised and tried to explain the value of the work as it > probably wasn't an area of expertise for him. As such, my response > started off with something along the lines of customers brought that > work into the IETF and we rarely get customers with a problem coming. > Then I explained the value of the work that is coming from the group > with an example of a draft that was adopted shortly after we spoke. > The draft automates provisioning of IPsec sessions within a hosted > service provider environment. Many similar drafts will follow to > remotely provision security services. > > Side note: having been a CISO and been responsible for enterprise > security, being able to provision your security infrastructure and > deploy security controls for your hosted environments will be a big > step forward for many. The enterprises ability to generate reports on > their security controls will help for their internal security > assessments as well as internal/external audits. I would hope any new > AD would take the time to understand work they may be managing before > making decisions to close it down. Maybe he would do that, but it > might be a question to dig into more. > > Then I explained that with new work comes new people to the IETF. In > the case of I2NSF, they are engaging in multiple WGs and that's a > really positive thing. Having customers engaged early in the process > will only improve the outcome. Then I went into numbers and > apparently, that's what stuck in Rich's mind and not that I see the > work of I2NSF as valuable. With 10 new people for a WG across 130 > some odd WGs, we have over 1000 active people contributing to the > IETF. It does bring in new people as as work closes down, others > leave. > > IMO, it's great that some people engaging in new WGs understand the > IETF way and begin to contribute in other WGs, review work of others > so they in turn have their work reviewed and improved. > > In "full transparency", that's just a few of my thoughts on this > complicated topic. > > > > -- > > Best regards, > Kathleen > > -- Best regards, Kathleen From nobody Tue Oct 17 08:34:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96C6E13234B for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:34:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.71 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.71 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FtCT_PRQBewp for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22a.google.com (mail-oi0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B199D132320 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id v132so3645685oie.1 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:34:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=m6fwNCiTANZ1lZRRJbUOgIYQ6t23hkIJunxQBDH2uJQ=; b=ZANukrvc1ew243GxVe4TIrcsnoA05kwjPhQuyJQUufZ0c8dyXAWGE0dKLhU1FRi+uW 5t62aQZTPe6U9KE8l2tr41ZDpJIZnw/4yQT6c4odVAeGb3XlLDFQPlkkJKv8rqGGNWxc Nuw/aWb2KtDkDrfZ6gOy6gdeuzZq7FMKNmSjlExqIU/qRJqcTIYdxj4j1nt/+RBQlrug sBdhqHP6ogRyX09ATI2MjWyxcLsnQFluTBWvhxoR1Mm74Rx5O+xlswi7sH3N9asvo7z5 2YqJ0PEnGXG8ikpwiumFWEXINqd1P0CuCsb39ouGxfwJDD0nUvQKkQMWMn6DYkQzJdDh khYA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=m6fwNCiTANZ1lZRRJbUOgIYQ6t23hkIJunxQBDH2uJQ=; b=k7M0JM9RTA88jFJaW4vk4bQH/1fZ5eNIFknG40AHGufY6YBs+Naq2glMdy1FamF/Fj bn2rRnmKXPoled5k+k7y1ID17cDdIGOd0IqqzCCfQP6rIcaJZqQfaGdebJGABCfdvbVS HuzK3XnlKQzKRzlDjiBgZiWCShf/Y76QMCxMkQyxidGaamycJRE0EqFANm2+QVbKR2PY 1z9SvXTcBBKXMFvJe3G0ZisdThSTrOydCrsb/55aQmNzPVafYGRtG1PF8tRhpvpAQnK1 njRDa/U+RFBwiNgLnRcpTIFs6itQHc9uvo/Orau8r0btcYqRNiPj3knIqh73SnsYIWu7 EZwg== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaXehJwWsIele0ZKJFFUTdYaeeNwLpTV8ZP1ffoEEDWp5M+wuj3i wDihwuk2EY7B7L7LIG1qnJcqoak0glVUctnzIUA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+TLjQh51yY48VAIg+Y1Riw6gPvTC1n+Fl5RlaEWllyNCrXp94TVC44n6TCW7iGacZIYlaHPRD50QY6/nxuxAKY= X-Received: by 10.202.198.11 with SMTP id w11mr6903722oif.330.1508254458073; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:34:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.202.171.195 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:33:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20171016135236.12dcaa60@elandnews.com> <3E158B61-DCF7-485C-B350-DA14B2B8CBDA@akamai.com> From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 11:33:57 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: NomComDiscussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1134fcbe34577b055bbfdb91" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" X-BeenThere: ietf-nomcom@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of possible revisions to the NomCom process List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 15:34:20 -0000 --001a1134fcbe34577b055bbfdb91 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rich, Looking back through my email archives, I see that I joined the list on 3/25/09. It was formed as a result of the plenary discussion at the March 2009 IETF meeting (who says that nothing ever results from those discussions?). It=E2=80=99s a discussion list about the nomcom process, but= not a part of the actual process itself. Cheers, Andy On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 11:18 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: > Thanks. > > > > Did I miss announcement of it in any of this year=E2=80=99s nomcom postin= gs? > > > > *From: *Andrew Malis > *Date: *Tuesday, October 17, 2017 at 10:36 AM > *To: *Rich Salz > *Cc: *NomComDiscussion > *Subject: *Re: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" > > > > Whoops, I fat-fingered. meant ietf-nomcom@ietf.org, not nomcom@ietf.org. > > > > Cheers, > > Andy > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 10:35 AM, Andrew G. Malis > wrote: > > Rich, > > > > Is that a public list, or is it for the nomcom members? I don=E2=80=99t = recall > seeing it mentioned in any of the email about a public list, but maybe I > missed it. I was thinking of something more like the =E2=80=9C99attendee= s=E2=80=9D type of > list, or the wg-chairs lists where people who are interested in the > *process* or perhaps just this year=E2=80=99s crop of nominees could talk= about > it. Is that what this list is for? > > > > nomcom@ietf.org is a public list, see https://www.ietf.org/ > mailman/listinfo/ietf-nomcom > > for details and to join the fun. > > > > Cheers, > > Andy > > > > > > > > > --001a1134fcbe34577b055bbfdb91 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rich,

Looking back through my email arc= hives, I see that I joined the list on 3/25/09. It was formed as a result o= f the plenary discussion at the March 2009 IETF meeting (who says that noth= ing ever results from those discussions?). It=E2=80=99s a discussion list a= bout the nomcom process, but not a part of the actual process itself.
=

Cheers,
Andy


On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 11:= 18 AM, Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:

Thanks.

=C2=A0

Did I miss announcement of it in any of this year=E2= =80=99s nomcom postings?

=C2=A0

From= : Andrew Malis <= agmalis@gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 at 10:36 AM
To: Rich Salz <rsalz@akamai.com>
Cc: NomComDiscussion <ietf-nomcom@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency&quo= t;

=C2=A0

Whoops, I fat-fingered. meant ietf-nomcom@ietf.org, not nomcom@ietf.org.

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Andy

=C2=A0


--001a1134fcbe34577b055bbfdb91-- From nobody Tue Oct 17 08:35:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B822D132C2A for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:35:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kyra9p4c9jwg for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:35:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0FA0B132320 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:34:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050096.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050096.ppops.net-00190b01. 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prod-mail-ppoint3.akamai.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id v9HFVeiE004087; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 11:34:56 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.32]) by prod-mail-ppoint3.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2dkdww2v61-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 17 Oct 2017 11:34:56 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb4.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.104) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 11:34:55 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1263.000; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 11:34:55 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Kathleen Moriarty CC: "ietf-nomcom@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Experiment in "full transparency" Thread-Index: AQHTR1inDnNd28hDxEu7OgqXzvQ1YKLoazQAgAAB0ICAAAJQAA== Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 15:34:55 +0000 Message-ID: <03C88ED2-0327-468E-B4F1-BC14EF08E53F@akamai.com> References: <51CD0D35-1B13-45AE-8B99-8525645B3606@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.26.0.170902 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.39.87] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-17_11:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1710170218 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-17_11:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam 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Malis" CC: NomComDiscussion Thread-Topic: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" Thread-Index: AQHTRsiE55WWCJX6hk63Iqd9YTsfKKLoSbsAgAAWIICAAABCgIAAC6KAgAAEb4CAAAEpAA== Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 15:38:05 +0000 Message-ID: <8CB73C9E-9BF2-4252-A98A-D5AA1FE597DC@akamai.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20171016135236.12dcaa60@elandnews.com> <3E158B61-DCF7-485C-B350-DA14B2B8CBDA@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.26.0.170902 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.39.87] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_8CB73C9E9BF24252A98AD5AA1FE597DCakamaicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-17_11:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1710170220 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-17_11:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1710170217 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" X-BeenThere: ietf-nomcom@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of possible revisions to the NomCom process List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 15:38:20 -0000 --_000_8CB73C9E9BF24252A98AD5AA1FE597DCakamaicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 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Delivered-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD8831332DA for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:38:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.79 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.79 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=opendkim.org header.b=R5fKOpDh; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com header.b=g3Fa2ldb Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6TJxzP-G_LqX for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ipv6.elandsys.com (mx.ipv6.elandsys.com [IPv6:2001:470:f329:1::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9444B132320 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([197.225.23.226]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v9HFcFIX027544 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:38:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=opendkim.org; s=mail2010; t=1508254706; x=1508341106; bh=ANwIoIbNqMbjjSVtEQqd3TSIZIFa5eSkNu0wnYal7LU=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=R5fKOpDhX2kRjyYRC+qJJnqKesX9Zkg1vIxrv6Onalano1Tb0A6jZHqX6Z9Qmu/M1 +eIY6wT3QIPLu+sXMfbrXGstaUggBc0Ifgx0tsL9k449ASp+BqV1X5usD8/VDvPXKJ 1maK7Iptn1IYpQg/mfaoOykWEp5TIAaQkD2hlzag= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1508254706; x=1508341106; i=@elandsys.com; bh=ANwIoIbNqMbjjSVtEQqd3TSIZIFa5eSkNu0wnYal7LU=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=g3Fa2ldb/OL1eSev3mxW57aBBbnJQ2mTrUx3qOy0P/TViZTRcsx4+2lzw4u/o/Dxq YSeZeg8lyjc95yq8DEURJ7+ZPhA4PtlCM4QdCjpRdITekJAlbs4t+1NQMZO2BRYNfz na6gIQxz+uP5Sazp6ynRzpf0V8cf+wrM9PPou2go= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20171017062821.121513a0@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:37:46 -0700 To: "Salz, Rich" , ietf-nomcom@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: <3E158B61-DCF7-485C-B350-DA14B2B8CBDA@akamai.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20171016135236.12dcaa60@elandnews.com> <3E158B61-DCF7-485C-B350-DA14B2B8CBDA@akamai.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" X-BeenThere: ietf-nomcom@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of possible revisions to the NomCom process List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 15:38:34 -0000 Hi Rich, At 06:16 AM 17-10-2017, Salz, Rich wrote: >Is that a public list, or is it for the nomcom=20 >members? I don't recall seeing it It is an open IETF mailing list. > mentioned in any of the email about a public=20 > list, but maybe I missed it. I was thinking of=20 > something more like the "99attendee" type of=20 > list, or the wg-chairs lists where people who=20 > are interested in the *process* or perhaps just=20 > this year's crop of nominees could talk about=20 > it. Is that what this list is for? It is a mailing list to discuss about the drafts=20 which are related to the NomCom process. It is=20 not a mailing list to discuss about this year's crop of nominees. >Did I give that impression? I didn't mean to; but, of course, I want to be= AD No. > otherwise I would not have gone through the=20 > process. I freely acknowledge that the other=20 > nominees, and almost everyone in the IETF, has=20 > traits and talents that complement mine. Which=20 > is to say, that they are better than me at some=20 > things. I am probably better than them at some=20 > things. If you think I said otherwise, please=20 > point out where so that I can improve. I don't think that you said otherwise. >On the other hand, an open and frank statement=20 >is better than private triangulation. If I were=20 >to say that I hope you don't re-pick Jari=20 >because he has nasty fish-breath, that's not=20 >right to say in private =AD if I have a concern=20 >like that I should approach the person=20 >directly. The IESG isn't a children's=20 >playground and the Nomcom aren't the playground=20 >monitors. There is plenty of time for private discussion in the interview. The "open and frank statements" is about NomCom=20 getting feedback about the candidates. In simple=20 terms, you get to say who will be a good fit for your Area. >I don't quite understand =AD going over which=20 >results, the Nomcom selections? If Yes. > that's what you mean, I would guess that=20 > increased sensitivity to the lack of diversity.=20 > That's usually the way things work, especially=20 > in high tech. It would be interesting to have=20 > an academic study of the diversity in IETF=20 > attendance and leadership. I am certainly not=20 > qualified to do so, but I think it would probably be worth having. Please see RFC 7704. I vaguely recall that there=20 was also an academic study of issues related to=20 the IETF and diversity was mentioned in it. >I think there should be a voting member. Nearly=20 >half of nomcom is non-voting liaisons and such.=20 >That looks strange to me. As I've said, picking=20 >randomly picking members from a fairly=20 >homogeneous population gets you representative=20 >membership, but not diverse membership. Until=20 >the membership if more diverse, I think we need=20 >an outside influence. I am not yet sure of the=20 >best way to do that; the chair appointment was one possibility. My uninformed opinion is that the NomComs of=20 today is different from the ones from the=20 yesteryears as the latter was a time when=20 everybody knew each other. If there is a need=20 for a change, it should come from within instead=20 of one which is driven by outside influence. It=20 is up to the IETF to see whether it would like to=20 have a membership which represents its participants or its attendees. >I don't see why it would be any more of a=20 >conflict than folks working on Cisco VPN or=20 >S/Wan or Firefox or such. Do you think there is=20 >a special concern with OpenSSL? The point was about what you might do instead of=20 what others have done or may do. I mentioned=20 OpenSSL as you are part of its team and that you=20 may be able to understand whether there might be=20 a conflict of interest with some IETF work and=20 explain how you would handle that. >I am opposed. But the discussion seems premature to me. I thought that it could be useful to get a clear answer on this issue. :-) >In retrospect, I think secdir provides input to=20 >the AD's and that it was wrong to say I'll=20 >continue on secdir. You don't get two bites at=20 >the apple (lawyer saying). Had I gotten this=20 >posted before, the open review probably would have caught that bug. :) Ok. :-) I assume that your strong points are about=20 bringing in an understanding of implementation=20 and deployment issues. How would you do that? Your suggestion to shrink the time commitment was=20 to bring in a third Area Director. What if that=20 was not an option? How would you tackle that? Why is it shocking when an Area Director votes"=20 no objection" and provides pages of comments? Regards, S. Moonesamy=20 From nobody Tue Oct 17 08:45:52 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E213913303F for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:45:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V-IO6BjMU8J8 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x235.google.com (mail-pg0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64778133032 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x235.google.com with SMTP id s2so1720249pge.10 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:45:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HNInPmuL5QmArfVzxkYdjfBK6jvcM4FPNf1ueTONgVw=; b=RbXiOU0/UXA7YBBHpiNP+KKBqXVG7mGcW9nPU0BtzV9rl2O4BEHccePlHtQfav0gHA zreS80aY8pOcl3GbnQYgbGtclup3qPiY/rMeAdaNqVxNohpLZEbpfIpIk8XjNdRtH+0g rk2ZI0PooCDqd/0436Cs/QEK0lp0T/PNy9aSxoKu95n9AgtLJAXbiHWry5CK4Bw/9T59 RIYgnocIdRzihMTW4+PqiU8fqtCue884dfon1HJw61l2K8CZcamd3A8Ty/KHOdSmbzK5 r61GdFNUWrk6yjx9a0SkWabvO9i8tXrUviub7AWCTvO/Mk28TyEakcg31WOkejq/j3JB 2ftg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HNInPmuL5QmArfVzxkYdjfBK6jvcM4FPNf1ueTONgVw=; b=M7xY2aD6YLeEa/pPdTvBcXJ6i/lZOMoXErfFa75P9xJ+fVx8No5MNlLysRL7JP4ikm 7UM+vvOMJ1kp4ygyZToF9RM2MHHr79und/HWVSlHXTs5qcJJefeGEasH4YG8M7yKkjPN m9Kx+eclAyrnNURk5HbPb2WUltjv7kDV62y8B6a3mH1vskX9vZ8srvn8H08UYJZ1Wtoc Erg8ZDO+t7NVrCiL4zPNRwfyNT3OtQ3ahKBfLi5e1IFlse4/hydHkwdujC07b0xSWGSe rtfEzLp50T6mTrd7b57X3IeS2WIz4DWJXch5WVrPfMnm1D7oOgSk6FnnEKEsyW8SuUzG Wwpw== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaVBWJdxcXya4KJ9Q8AsWc69PdoQEqql88kUj29gdRi+y5Q1GHAY 9ilR+4d8bXpRFrf+ECx9ZX+7BWGD/ozXW2xQ3cY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QDc/NTNJu6katci8Rtsers2a3LjeOYocsWnhsIzXgEQ8zojhhdI+iR9YQlaI7gdujmXk7IIETUZ+mmsij3Lscs= X-Received: by 10.99.111.5 with SMTP id k5mr11420028pgc.364.1508255149682; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:45:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.186.194 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 08:45:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <03C88ED2-0327-468E-B4F1-BC14EF08E53F@akamai.com> References: <51CD0D35-1B13-45AE-8B99-8525645B3606@akamai.com> <03C88ED2-0327-468E-B4F1-BC14EF08E53F@akamai.com> From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 11:45:09 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: "ietf-nomcom@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" X-BeenThere: ietf-nomcom@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of possible revisions to the NomCom process List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 15:45:52 -0000 Thank you. On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 11:34 AM, Salz, Rich wrote: > I agree, I mis-summarized what you said. > > I hope the important point -- that I learned something from our conversat= ion =E2=80=93 doesn=E2=80=99t get lost. > > On 10/17/17, 11:27 AM, "Kathleen Moriarty" wrote: > > Rich, > > It was a misquote and I'm not embarrassed as I never said we should > start up new WGs that don't have value. I felt it was important to > clarify since my thoughts are very different from your statement. I d= o > believe in the work of the WGs for which I am the responsible AD and > have spent the time to understand the importance of their work. > > Best, > Kathleen > > On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 11:20 AM, Salz, Rich wrote= : > > Kathleen, > > > > I apologize if I embarrassed you in any way. > > > > On 10/17/17, 11:00 AM, "Kathleen Moriarty" wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > Since Rich's submission includes comments from our private > > conversation, I'll rehash the conversation to clarify my the po= ints I > > made with some (not all) background on my thinking. > > > > I had asked Rich what he was interested to do as AD. He respon= ded > > that he would close down I2NSF first. As responsible AD for th= at WG, > > I was surprised and tried to explain the value of the work as i= t > > probably wasn't an area of expertise for him. As such, my resp= onse > > started off with something along the lines of customers brought= that > > work into the IETF and we rarely get customers with a problem c= oming. > > Then I explained the value of the work that is coming from the = group > > with an example of a draft that was adopted shortly after we sp= oke. > > The draft automates provisioning of IPsec sessions within a hos= ted > > service provider environment. Many similar drafts will follow = to > > remotely provision security services. > > > > Side note: having been a CISO and been responsible for enterpri= se > > security, being able to provision your security infrastructure = and > > deploy security controls for your hosted environments will be a= big > > step forward for many. The enterprises ability to generate repo= rts on > > their security controls will help for their internal security > > assessments as well as internal/external audits. I would hope a= ny new > > AD would take the time to understand work they may be managing = before > > making decisions to close it down. Maybe he would do that, but= it > > might be a question to dig into more. > > > > Then I explained that with new work comes new people to the IET= F. In > > the case of I2NSF, they are engaging in multiple WGs and that's= a > > really positive thing. Having customers engaged early in the p= rocess > > will only improve the outcome. Then I went into numbers and > > apparently, that's what stuck in Rich's mind and not that I see= the > > work of I2NSF as valuable. With 10 new people for a WG across = 130 > > some odd WGs, we have over 1000 active people contributing to t= he > > IETF. It does bring in new people as as work closes down, othe= rs > > leave. > > > > IMO, it's great that some people engaging in new WGs understand= the > > IETF way and begin to contribute in other WGs, review work of o= thers > > so they in turn have their work reviewed and improved. > > > > In "full transparency", that's just a few of my thoughts on thi= s > > complicated topic. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Best regards, > > Kathleen > > > > > > > > -- > > Best regards, > Kathleen > > --=20 Best regards, Kathleen From nobody Tue Oct 17 09:39:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BEE013303A for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 09:39:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xuNzcWKDcNHe for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 09:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (ns.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 28579133020 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 09:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1e4UtP-00053E-Ko; Tue, 17 Oct 2017 12:38:59 -0400 Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 12:38:53 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: "Salz, Rich" cc: NomComDiscussion Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8CB73C9E-9BF2-4252-A98A-D5AA1FE597DC@akamai.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20171016135236.12dcaa60@elandnews.com> <3E158B61-DCF7-485C-B350-DA14B2B8CBDA@akamai.com> <8CB73C9E-9BF2-4252-A98A-D5AA1FE597DC@akamai.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" X-BeenThere: ietf-nomcom@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of possible revisions to the NomCom process List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 16:39:02 -0000 Rich, A general observation about some of your suggestions... There is a case to be made for an IESG (and IAB) that operate as a closed, friendly, and self-perpetuating club. It promotes stability and consistency of views and policies and helps out individuals and companies who like either the status quo or positioning themselves within it. If that is what one wants, then having a lot of liaisons who participate in every respect other that voting, especially when the typical Nomcom member is a little short on personal knowledge about the IETF and how it functions and about individual incumbents and other candidates is a great idea. Having the bodies for which people are being selected appoint voting Nomcom members might be even better. There is also a case to be made that a community member who fears retaliation from speaking out against a particular IESG member or identifies bad behavior by that person really doesn't have sufficient backbone to participate in the IETF and we (and the Nomcom don't really need to hear from them). Again, if that is what we want, loading up the Nomcom with liaisons whose confidentiality requirements are less clear than voting members and who might be able to hide the source of leaks just by heir numbers and for IESG-appointed Momcom members (like the liaisons, at least partially responsible to their appointing bodies) could be quite strong. However, I think we have been there. The so-called Kobe affair and our current organizational structure --including the Nomcom itself-- were the result of a self-perpetuating IAB which (perhaps inevitably) got out of touch with the community and that, the community concluded, could be "fixed" only by discarding and replacing the organizational structure and retiring most of the membership. Because I worry about those issues, I am concerned every time a Nomcom sets itself up so that only comments on individual candidates are solicited, making no provision for comments about the overall makeup of a body and how it is working with the community or important topics. I am concerned that we have too many liaisons and too few constraints on their behavior (particularly what they are expected or allowed to discuss with appointing bodies after they are appointed), the information to which they will have access. and their participation in interviews. I am even concerned about statements from bodies to which the Nomcom will make appointments about what those bodies want or need and what roles should be considered in evaluating candidates-- not because the statements are a bad idea, but because there is no obvious mechanism for other members of the community to review those statements and express dissenting views about what the community needs or should have. There is probably a good balance among those points of view, but I believe it is one the community should be discussing in an open way that addresses the actual choices, not by tweaking Nomcom membership without thinking through the likely consequences. best, john From nobody Fri Oct 20 11:11:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9CB61342F5 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2017 11:11:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=elistx-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zysetWEKMy9O for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2017 11:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22e.google.com (mail-qk0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5590A134220 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2017 11:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id n5so15318120qke.11 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2017 11:11:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=elistx-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bOMWI24lzG3UGC7FuZn+IJgS5VVTr1CDhV8lr20BGC0=; b=tjbh6t3E47VbgAH6hMMQYLZIDOB7PCzGx/G5a+MPFaa1DpGBrRoR4ZXxZYgjEdg8vr xgV5vRJvjdvwXhykxWjv9D6CihqfSkLChaEKLRdpZHn5jkzS8lJlk3uoEcf2ZaAONdYn 7wcJHDEbnvlhTlDhrmM0uViJAP+oFUEW7XN7R6irDMziXsIM3TYnQY1ptWfuEhZyM0cL 99DShxZVVdikOXb22oTF7/6gPHh2GKoumWwESV3d2N/+0bS3WXJTgB4yBclQefKmdxhP LmT59i8Zsp+lEJxZwvTND0QU/0aIzVC1ftOWD2rXpEUQzkAZi3c4rlrDpG2GyGRPI+tr vIFw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bOMWI24lzG3UGC7FuZn+IJgS5VVTr1CDhV8lr20BGC0=; b=Pzon7hQM+KoBZRkDkLP4EysUDPyPOtxqtlK8/CiiS/rWLhXLoUesa0OaJmkY69vnK1 UKH6G62a3nJBKoiZLMFSr9pfTajp7zdjJx8ykLS7Qf+vyFefai2kqHRzb3wNvHeHR+Bb sjmDJzSbKB/6Qxjl1wvk9/W2XJSCv82Op/H0FCUxv7grXCcBf4uDF6Grx6pl3XEaNJmP QSW0DwFo4ZIkeX+gi2mzUcK9algccwIKF+Qwu4msizm9GTaqSCjIgPDhNzJSHUjc8MKb KRZZ5+cyAaLyD7/zRduzS7BFscLdwNJ3JdTQMpVa1zgiHcMnbaENwXaE8b7BWcpHpH0G 29eA== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaVKx6hsPTZG7gnwddbH8KB+ziymOcumfPVwwy/reDp5xSx/N8fs XvZzRN43tu1uF/bewm9laHThzhanZyU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+RJ4E9k38gvtc11R+qM/UtHGKtrOjynD+Y1HxAL5ZYLhW2a9iR5J7FFpeTA/wLMUz+bcLeWlQ== X-Received: by 10.55.115.133 with SMTP id o127mr8288759qkc.351.1508523081523; Fri, 20 Oct 2017 11:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.4] ([2601:154:c201:51d0:cdd3:d146:541f:29af]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id v12sm924270qkl.43.2017.10.20.11.11.19 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 20 Oct 2017 11:11:20 -0700 (PDT) From: "James Galvin" To: "Andrew G. Malis" Cc: "Salz, Rich" , NomComDiscussion Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 14:11:18 -0400 Message-ID: <46F8E6BB-E370-45C8-8D1B-C29D12A9E498@elistx.com> In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20171016135236.12dcaa60@elandnews.com> <3E158B61-DCF7-485C-B350-DA14B2B8CBDA@akamai.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.7r5425) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" X-BeenThere: ietf-nomcom@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of possible revisions to the NomCom process List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 18:11:24 -0000 On 17 Oct 2017, at 11:33, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > Looking back through my email archives, I see that I joined the list > on 3/25/09. It was formed as a result of the plenary discussion at the > March 2009 IETF meeting (who says that nothing ever results from those > discussions?). It’s a discussion list about the nomcom process, but > not a part of the actual process itself. Well, technically, the list “ietf-nomcom” was created in 2004 when the NOMCOM working group was created. This was the third in a series of NOMCOM related working groups. However it was not hosted at the IETF at that time. I hosted it at that time. Hosting moved to the IETF in 2009. That’s why in the current archive system it would appear to have been created much more recently, i.e., 2009. And if you really want to revisit history, this mailing list first existed in 1995 and was called “poised” at the time. That mailing list was used across two NOMCOM related working groups and two prior iterations of the NOMCOM document. All of these archives exist and can be found in the IETF list archive area. Jim From nobody Fri Oct 20 13:32:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FD0A126BF3 for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2017 13:32:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WmrlH_gPotYX for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2017 13:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C2DC13217D for ; Fri, 20 Oct 2017 13:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0122333.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id v9KKWPi2004593; Fri, 20 Oct 2017 21:32:25 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=wB1a86uQDS3PTUZgj5+tZ8dNNDO+bXCay9ZKCn7fVI8=; b=D0GgVbb3UqQtCI1hYIB7RFr9kjgl7zFRjeNQD3rHX2BizfrHd+Q3L0rhPF5TBNp1cj7t vuErlU54p3IXkykV9YYXaPsi3B4SE+Cf1eMOzzmh6e9Uw33Mb52cn6nf0Pj0UG5IIztM At94DnoZ2ZhFnMWcJusOcoZRFwfbsEMWvL2lz99GmiFLXelV/o6qMEWH4xWg33RTtBr7 Xoyf3HF26rTfGCYe5hrzc72vNjhdQdL5FD8v4wIaWumVb2R5bR+ynSMAXd5AyeZikttf nazL1H8oaTAwYgM6jnsDaXS2FD9ymmm32CxQH3jyZkSDuCGUJwXValeI6V9RyonsqC37 5w== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint2 (prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com [184.51.33.19]) by mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2dpa0d0c2a-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 20 Oct 2017 21:32:24 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id v9KKV5dO023840; Fri, 20 Oct 2017 16:32:22 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.31]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2dkdwukreb-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 20 Oct 2017 16:32:22 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb4.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.104) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Fri, 20 Oct 2017 16:32:22 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1263.000; Fri, 20 Oct 2017 16:32:22 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: James Galvin , "Andrew G. Malis" CC: NomComDiscussion Thread-Topic: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" Thread-Index: AQHTRsiE55WWCJX6hk63Iqd9YTsfKKLoSbsAgAAWIICAAABCgIAAC6KAgAAEb4CABOL1AIAAJ2gA Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 20:32:21 +0000 Message-ID: <85A0B48D-14B0-4939-B3E5-AB66BF6A0831@akamai.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20171016135236.12dcaa60@elandnews.com> <3E158B61-DCF7-485C-B350-DA14B2B8CBDA@akamai.com> <46F8E6BB-E370-45C8-8D1B-C29D12A9E498@elistx.com> In-Reply-To: <46F8E6BB-E370-45C8-8D1B-C29D12A9E498@elistx.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.26.0.170902 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.45.186] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <9111CA7EFC40614FBD860E30B637EF6E@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-20_10:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1710200286 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-20_10:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1710200287 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" X-BeenThere: ietf-nomcom@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of possible revisions to the NomCom process List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2017 20:32:30 -0000 PiAgICBBbGwgb2YgdGhlc2UgYXJjaGl2ZXMgZXhpc3QgYW5kIGNhbiBiZSBmb3VuZCBpbiB0aGUg SUVURiBsaXN0IGFyY2hpdmUgDQogICAgYXJlYS4NCiAgICANCg0KVGhhdOKAmXMgZ3JlYXQuICBT aG91bGQgd2UgYmUgdHJ5aW5nIHRvIGVuY291cmFnZSBtb3JlIHBhcnRpY2lwYXRpb24gaW4gdGhl IGN1cnJlbnQgcHJvY2VzcywgYW5kIGlmIHNvIHdoYXTigJlzIHRoZSBiZXN0IHdheSB0byBkbyBz bz8NCiAgDQoNCg== From nobody Mon Oct 23 13:07:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B5CD139561 for ; 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Mon, 23 Oct 2017 16:07:11 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.31]) by prod-mail-ppoint3.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2dr1jvfu29-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 23 Oct 2017 16:07:11 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb4.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.104) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 16:07:09 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1263.000; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 16:07:09 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: John C Klensin CC: NomComDiscussion Thread-Topic: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" Thread-Index: AQHTRsiE55WWCJX6hk63Iqd9YTsfKKLoSbsAgAAWIICAAABCgIAAC6KAgAAEb4CAAAEpAIAAEPuAgAmoLQA= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 20:07:08 +0000 Message-ID: <5BDAF4B0-FE20-4940-B436-683209FAC9C9@akamai.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20171016135236.12dcaa60@elandnews.com> <3E158B61-DCF7-485C-B350-DA14B2B8CBDA@akamai.com> <8CB73C9E-9BF2-4252-A98A-D5AA1FE597DC@akamai.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.27.0.171010 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.35.171] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <6BAE002F635F734591C67E8D98179B69@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-23_10:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1710230283 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-23_10:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1710230283 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" X-BeenThere: ietf-nomcom@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of possible revisions to the NomCom process List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 20:07:15 -0000 Sm9obiwNCg0KVGhhbmtzIGZvciB0aGUgZGV0YWlsZWQgYW5kIHRob3VnaHRmdWwgcmVzcG9uc2Uu DQoNCiAgICAgICAiVGhlcmUgaXMgcHJvYmFibHkgYSBnb29kIGJhbGFuY2UgYW1vbmcgdGhvc2Ug cG9pbnRzIG9mIHZpZXcsIGJ1dCBJIGJlbGlldmUgaXQgaXMgb25lIHRoZSBjb21tdW5pdHkgc2hv dWxkIGJlIGRpc2N1c3NpbmcgaW4gYW4gb3BlbiB3YXkgdGhhdCBhZGRyZXNzZXMgdGhlIGFjdHVh bCBjaG9pY2VzLCBub3QgYnkgdHdlYWtpbmcgTm9tY29tIG1lbWJlcnNoaXAgd2l0aG91dCB0aGlu a2luZyB0aHJvdWdoIHRoZSBsaWtlbHkgY29uc2VxdWVuY2VzLuKAnQ0KDQpZZXMuICBJIHdvdWxk IGxpa2UgdG8gaGVscCBhZGRyZXNzIHRoaXMuICBBIGJhciBCb0YgYXQgMTAwLCBhIHJlYWwgQm9G IGF0IDEwMT8gIFRob3VnaHRzIG9uIGhvdyB0byBtb3ZlIGZvcndhcmQ/DQoNCg0K From nobody Mon Oct 23 16:17:25 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2D8B13AC9E for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 16:17:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6GKy7IuAHvDO; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 16:17:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsa2.jck.com (bsa2.jck.com [70.88.254.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3065A13AB3E; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 16:17:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.252.137.10] (helo=PSB) by bsa2.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.82 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1e6lyA-000L6D-Qe; Mon, 23 Oct 2017 19:17:18 -0400 Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 19:17:11 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: "Salz, Rich" cc: NomComDiscussion , NomCom Chair 2017 Message-ID: <70A26384995DDC19DC8E2CAC@PSB> In-Reply-To: <5BDAF4B0-FE20-4940-B436-683209FAC9C9@akamai.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20171016135236.12dcaa60@elandnews.com> <3E158B61-DCF7-485C-B350-DA14B2B8CBDA@akamai.com> <8CB73C9E-9BF2-4252-A98A-D5AA1FE597DC@akamai.com> <5BDAF4B0-FE20-4940-B436-683209FAC9C9@akamai.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 198.252.137.10 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: john-ietf@jck.com X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on bsa2.jck.com); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" X-BeenThere: ietf-nomcom@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of possible revisions to the NomCom process List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 23:17:23 -0000 --On Monday, October 23, 2017 20:07 +0000 "Salz, Rich" wrote: > John, > > Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful response. > > "There is probably a good balance among those points of > view, but I believe it is one the community should be > discussing in an open way that addresses the actual choices, > not by tweaking Nomcom membership without thinking through the > likely consequences." > > Yes. I would like to help address this. A bar BoF at 100, a > real BoF at 101? Thoughts on how to move forward? While I tried to write a note that was as balanced as possible, I've actually got strong opinions on the subject (including questions you didn't raise) and so might not be the best person to ask. In particular, I'd like to hear from Peter (explicitly copied in case he isn't following the list) (a) what he and this year's Nomcom intend to do to allow comments about how assorted bodies are working as a whole and how particular appointments (or retirements) might affect that, including advice about what criteria the Nomcom should use in its deliberations, and (b) how those comments and others that might reflect on liaisons or other incumbent can be adequately secured to protect those who make the comments from retaliation and other adverse behavior. In addition, there is a question that is much broader than the issues you have raised. The Nomcom model was designed at a time when we could reasonably predict that most plausible candidates would be personally known to a large fraction of the Nomcom members and we could also predict that the volunteers for the Nomcom would represent a good cross-section of the people who were actually actively contributing to the IETF. Obviously if the Nomcom volunteer pool doesn't represent a good cross-section of those doing work in the IETF, the random selection process is statistically unlikely to yield such a cross-section either. It is fairly clear that, as the IETF has evolved, the first assumption is no longer correct. Many of us believe the second isn't either. There is an additional problem, which is that we have an increasing number of active remote participants who are not only not eligible to volunteer for the Nomcom but who are typically not represented on it by people with similar concerns. If, for example, we had an IESG or IAOC candidate who was opposed to either remote participation or to making adjustments needed to make it work well (I am aware of no such candidates; if I were, I'd find another example), it would be important, not just to point that issue out to the Nomcom but for there to be someone on the Nomcom to advocate for the importance of that as an issue to be considered. In a way, that is just a generalization of your argument for more liaisons and/or specially-appointed Nomcom members and giving at least some of them a vote. But it, and I think your reasoning, also suggest that the IETF is no longer homogeneous enough that random selection from a single Nomcom volunteer pool is serving us well any more... and that argues for reconsidering the whole process and model, not a discussion of incremental patches. best, john So I have to From nobody Fri Oct 27 22:52:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54AF813F7BA for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 22:52:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P6_TuHnlOsKQ for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 22:52:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa11-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa11-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [68.178.252.104]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AA9E13F7BE for ; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 22:52:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spectre ([173.8.184.78]) by :SMTPAUTH: with SMTP id 8K30eGOz6WIt78K30eIOJB; Fri, 27 Oct 2017 22:52:43 -0700 From: "Peter Yee" To: "'John C Klensin'" , "'Salz, Rich'" Cc: "'NomComDiscussion'" , "'NomCom Chair 2017'" References: <6.2.5.6.2.20171016135236.12dcaa60@elandnews.com> <3E158B61-DCF7-485C-B350-DA14B2B8CBDA@akamai.com> <8CB73C9E-9BF2-4252-A98A-D5AA1FE597DC@akamai.com> <5BDAF4B0-FE20-4940-B436-683209FAC9C9@akamai.com> <70A26384995DDC19DC8E2CAC@PSB> In-Reply-To: <70A26384995DDC19DC8E2CAC@PSB> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2017 22:52:51 -0700 Message-ID: <09f301d34fb0$fe5925d0$fb0b7170$@akayla.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQHZSaYsx4qwwSlZuGhKbfEqyF5lLgEZi4g+AkfemsQCQ+kM+AJICYdgAjAGpwgBkw+ixQIJ8TfhAZFDL4yicmrQ8A== Content-Language: en-us X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfCU3zVFiKLO3h2FaNs+IyHE1IpxDLeYs1A5IAw6FWcs5Ub0Wj7fqToFs3T9BfwljDCFlooCYSE22BS0t575it9J7RtP0Hb25j9JYJqclgvcCujjTkIs/ yXt1N0dHixfiEOcj8xN422KueIJAyECUPfcTHWXLKmypkC6ucBZJu92DCp+OEIgBYMDKRbv+pk6Vfem1yzR8MyPcA7bF6F1rnJbuYKY+LzbcBhPrfcS98Gry mbwjy6EwL+Y5Q/ivLH1aWQ== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" X-BeenThere: ietf-nomcom@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of possible revisions to the NomCom process List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 05:52:45 -0000 John, (I'm not on the ietf-nomcom list.) Responding to the items below: (a) The datatracker doesn't have a lot of good tools at the moment for general input to the NomCom. I might be able to turn on feedback for the IESG as a general position, since we have it as a sort of placeholder for the overarching IESG role description, but I don't have a similar capability for the IAB and IAOC. This is something you might want to engage Henrik and the tools team on as a feature that would be useful in the future. I can see how it would be useful to ensure that all relevant input is stored in one place for easier consideration. For now, the NomCom can take email input on anything that doesn't neatly fit into the datatracker. While that's a bit of a manual process, I have been collecting such input so that it can be raised during deliberations. (b) If there's a community concern that some input should not be seen by the liaisons or other advisers who are not voting members of the NomCom, perhaps the datatracker could be modified to allow a different key pair to be used in securing general comments. At the moment, the datatracker uses a single private/public key pair to secure all community feedback and nominee questionnaires. I suppose in the interim, sensitive comments can be sent to me directly and I can distribute them solely to the voting membership if it comes to that. I can't really speak to the perception that the NomCom is not representative of the IETF community, since the IETF community sometimes strikes me as the elephant that is being described by the blind men. Needless to say, RFC 7437 puts requirements on attendance at a certain number of recent IETF meetings, but not on what level of participation that attendance entails. A rewrite of 7437 could certainly change the criteria for NomCom member selection, but that would require care so that we don't end up making the requirements so onerous that the NomCom makeup is either a foregone conclusion or merely preserving of the status quo. Serving on last year's NomCom, I found the breadth of experience and backgrounds to be invigorating. It's a tricky thing to find the right balance and I don't claim to have the answer there. Kind regards, -Peter -----Original Message----- From: John C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf@jck.com] Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 4:17 PM To: Salz, Rich Cc: NomComDiscussion; NomCom Chair 2017 Subject: Re: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" --On Monday, October 23, 2017 20:07 +0000 "Salz, Rich" wrote: > John, > > Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful response. > > "There is probably a good balance among those points of view, > but I believe it is one the community should be discussing in an open > way that addresses the actual choices, not by tweaking Nomcom > membership without thinking through the likely consequences." > > Yes. I would like to help address this. A bar BoF at 100, a real BoF > at 101? Thoughts on how to move forward? While I tried to write a note that was as balanced as possible, I've actually got strong opinions on the subject (including questions you didn't raise) and so might not be the best person to ask. In particular, I'd like to hear from Peter (explicitly copied in case he isn't following the list) (a) what he and this year's Nomcom intend to do to allow comments about how assorted bodies are working as a whole and how particular appointments (or retirements) might affect that, including advice about what criteria the Nomcom should use in its deliberations, and (b) how those comments and others that might reflect on liaisons or other incumbent can be adequately secured to protect those who make the comments from retaliation and other adverse behavior. In addition, there is a question that is much broader than the issues you have raised. The Nomcom model was designed at a time when we could reasonably predict that most plausible candidates would be personally known to a large fraction of the Nomcom members and we could also predict that the volunteers for the Nomcom would represent a good cross-section of the people who were actually actively contributing to the IETF. Obviously if the Nomcom volunteer pool doesn't represent a good cross-section of those doing work in the IETF, the random selection process is statistically unlikely to yield such a cross-section either. It is fairly clear that, as the IETF has evolved, the first assumption is no longer correct. Many of us believe the second isn't either. There is an additional problem, which is that we have an increasing number of active remote participants who are not only not eligible to volunteer for the Nomcom but who are typically not represented on it by people with similar concerns. If, for example, we had an IESG or IAOC candidate who was opposed to either remote participation or to making adjustments needed to make it work well (I am aware of no such candidates; if I were, I'd find another example), it would be important, not just to point that issue out to the Nomcom but for there to be someone on the Nomcom to advocate for the importance of that as an issue to be considered. In a way, that is just a generalization of your argument for more liaisons and/or specially-appointed Nomcom members and giving at least some of them a vote. But it, and I think your reasoning, also suggest that the IETF is no longer homogeneous enough that random selection from a single Nomcom volunteer pool is serving us well any more... and that argues for reconsidering the whole process and model, not a discussion of incremental patches. best, john So I have to From nobody Sat Oct 28 07:06:28 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6679313F560 for ; Sat, 28 Oct 2017 07:06:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3JzJP25VxD5C; 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Sat, 28 Oct 2017 10:06:21 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Peter Yee , 'John C Klensin' CC: 'NomComDiscussion' , 'NomCom Chair 2017' Thread-Topic: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" Thread-Index: AQHTRsiE55WWCJX6hk63Iqd9YTsfKKLoSbsAgAAWIICAAABCgIAAC6KAgAAEb4CAAAEpAIAAEPuAgAmoLQCAADUZgIAGt+CAgACJ4wA= Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 14:06:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <6.2.5.6.2.20171016135236.12dcaa60@elandnews.com> <3E158B61-DCF7-485C-B350-DA14B2B8CBDA@akamai.com> <8CB73C9E-9BF2-4252-A98A-D5AA1FE597DC@akamai.com> <5BDAF4B0-FE20-4940-B436-683209FAC9C9@akamai.com> <70A26384995DDC19DC8E2CAC@PSB> <09f301d34fb0$fe5925d0$fb0b7170$@akayla.com> In-Reply-To: <09f301d34fb0$fe5925d0$fb0b7170$@akayla.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.27.0.171010 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.32.218] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <181C8447BEF24445B52E984771247140@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-28_04:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1710280196 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-28_04:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1710280195 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" X-BeenThere: ietf-nomcom@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of possible revisions to the NomCom process List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 14:06:27 -0000 SSB0aGluayBpdCB3aWxsIGJlIHdvcnRod2hpbGUsIGFmdGVyIHRoZSBwcm9jZXNzIGlzIGRvbmUs IHRvIGhhdmUgc29tZSBraW5kIG9mIHJlcG9ydCBhYm91dCB3aGF0IGl0IHdhcyBsaWtlIHdpdGgg YWxsIHRoZSBub24tdm90aW5nIGxpYWlzb25zLCBhbmQgSSBob3BlIHlvdeKAmWxsIGRvIHRoYXQu ICBTaXggb3V0IG9mIDE2IGFyZSBpbiB0aGF0IGdyb3VwLCBhbmQgaXQgc2VlbXMgdmVyeSBoaWdo IHRvIHRoaXMgb3V0c2lkZXIuDQogDQoNCg== From nobody Sat Oct 28 07:36:55 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A9E213F571 for ; 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Sat, 28 Oct 2017 15:36:49 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yWzNV-L92x7A; Sat, 28 Oct 2017 15:36:47 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.244.2.100] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6E9D5BE4C; Sat, 28 Oct 2017 15:36:47 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1509201407; bh=/wY3M4h43GOcCZCXTUCdzqkSuvwpmjdh8qbZ2YX/5Go=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=V0BM72OaRm1fLC8SuiY9akcS8KQF64SRVzZNHSSmySBJDszaENE07lolj6RlVkUpC nLL+2ZvlF2wTPSWXI7irbTTu0S8xoKGO5KqGV8Wfe8mx+sRQJ8/cH16S3ZkLHFaYR0 t5wBf2zCnpByOcHh9idtSqySyOaFQSl7q79hZcos= To: "Salz, Rich" , Peter Yee , 'John C Klensin' Cc: 'NomComDiscussion' , 'NomCom Chair 2017' References: <6.2.5.6.2.20171016135236.12dcaa60@elandnews.com> <3E158B61-DCF7-485C-B350-DA14B2B8CBDA@akamai.com> <8CB73C9E-9BF2-4252-A98A-D5AA1FE597DC@akamai.com> <5BDAF4B0-FE20-4940-B436-683209FAC9C9@akamai.com> <70A26384995DDC19DC8E2CAC@PSB> <09f301d34fb0$fe5925d0$fb0b7170$@akayla.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: <5c51ab08-13f7-0579-6d1e-4e73575c10e4@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 15:36:46 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="GsFufrxioOJJT3trHf5MkuHGQXcueGQdT" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" X-BeenThere: ietf-nomcom@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of possible revisions to the NomCom process List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 14:36:53 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --GsFufrxioOJJT3trHf5MkuHGQXcueGQdT Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="CKEHW9v22rSJPNKnn6oNUKKKdFcGTNli1"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: "Salz, Rich" , Peter Yee , 'John C Klensin' Cc: 'NomComDiscussion' , 'NomCom Chair 2017' Message-ID: <5c51ab08-13f7-0579-6d1e-4e73575c10e4@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" References: <6.2.5.6.2.20171016135236.12dcaa60@elandnews.com> <3E158B61-DCF7-485C-B350-DA14B2B8CBDA@akamai.com> <8CB73C9E-9BF2-4252-A98A-D5AA1FE597DC@akamai.com> <5BDAF4B0-FE20-4940-B436-683209FAC9C9@akamai.com> <70A26384995DDC19DC8E2CAC@PSB> <09f301d34fb0$fe5925d0$fb0b7170$@akayla.com> In-Reply-To: --CKEHW9v22rSJPNKnn6oNUKKKdFcGTNli1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Rich, On 28/10/17 15:06, Salz, Rich wrote: > I think it will be worthwhile, after the process is done, to have > some kind of report about what it was like with all the non-voting > liaisons, and I hope you=E2=80=99ll do that. Six out of 16 are in that= > group, and it seems very high to this outsider. I was IESG liaison to a nomcom a couple of years ago. AIUI, the non-voting folks other than the chair were there to offer information to the voting members when asked, but not to steer. We were also there to provide re-assurance to the relevant bodies (the IESG in my case) that the process inside nomcom was well run and to help handle confirmation of selected folks. (I don't recall any IESG liaison coming back to the IESG saying anything other than that year's process had been well-run for the 6 years I was on the IESG.) I forget if that's written down in the BCPs or not, but it seems useful for nomcom to have folks in those roles, and maybe more than useful for bodies (IESG,IAB,ISOC board) that confirm selected folks. Without a liaison, it might be just too easy for a confirming body and a nomcom to hit near deadlock, due to the mechanics of handling the confidentiality involved. The reason for this mail though is that I figure the utility of the liaisons increases as the voting members are less experienced IETFers. Highly experienced voting members could likely get by with fewer liaisons, but if we're more likely to have less experienced voting members the non-voting folks seem to me to be a thing to be very careful about ditching, even if 6/16 seems like a lot. As a minor point the non-voting folks I think have also sometimes been logistically useful when it comes to the November IETF meeting, when there's a lot of running about and interviewing going on. If fewer people had to do all that, it might not work as well. S. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ ietf-nomcom mailing > list ietf-nomcom@ietf.org=20 > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-nomcom >=20 --CKEHW9v22rSJPNKnn6oNUKKKdFcGTNli1-- --GsFufrxioOJJT3trHf5MkuHGQXcueGQdT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJZ9JX+AAoJEC88hzaAX42iVSwH/jhtbG9GY12olnNn614uyjPR yAj60zkl12YgLoKBumd69OMcZeGP/sBKWMYZy4dCvymT7Dvl8QDNJj8TK5yFIfWR 2v11Qccgr/EhO4XNMa9z7OAPeds9oqJQxS98wwtMnTtwNqOsY1xGPhRPqdn/Wb9I d+SrQ1PK6jmLcWrhB65a6mCYQX/ZPhyinmCOMOwKR5eKwkpUaZhRpCo3QKQtR+wn 4SNpEiR4trNH/w3wYkhOSdfS/GJi5DDX/lOQeJHzyRlZoG4KbYAqEqPJlpLT6MIr j69+PU9t2DilmZhsMgr2ADFLbqcTZOF5yJsUjvHFyAV6sD43jwAgIV6LAwiWEhg= =B6vd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --GsFufrxioOJJT3trHf5MkuHGQXcueGQdT-- From nobody Sat Oct 28 07:55:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietf-nomcom@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C931813F570 for ; Sat, 28 Oct 2017 07:55:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T6WxVVMUTO6E; Sat, 28 Oct 2017 07:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 943591384F5; Sat, 28 Oct 2017 07:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050102.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050102.ppops.net-00190b01. (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id v9SEqnve022720; Sat, 28 Oct 2017 15:55:14 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-id : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=eDFbGm7ZsQbU5GYflNSkTY8a1HwQFlUBKhF4H0kkj3E=; b=H1tut08oYU4jBW3Hr1+d9la2jua+2vdKisFw5i9DepcjRoMLSBbDfyWgdQePG2kDKmae o2mTS5WCky/d/zaTN+PbLbzcHDgFsX+XEHFQ/7nK5WRlrTTAxGWiCxb2fo7dNwgcUhPc Qc5bDZ0LUBscQeJ/QFx6UM5WmnGqdhLCyXvrMLjNBWukx82BiWeDHKjRPafX2HUwgWj4 IiOk6Wz5bY4d+giO+wzJYoG6LFniamRSjLafSOwKBf5+1lKRRinbPUycIgvHaO+p2OK7 HCXQlRd17UNIlWYouk65cdekRL9Vh8FxVCBoxwP7B5RfJg7leKdqDa516cAWEC75HkmA sQ== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint1 (prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com [184.51.33.18]) by m0050102.ppops.net-00190b01. with ESMTP id 2dvmqnh0n5-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 28 Oct 2017 15:55:14 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id v9SEpgpx016627; Sat, 28 Oct 2017 10:55:13 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.31]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2dvn7ugma1-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 28 Oct 2017 10:55:13 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Sat, 28 Oct 2017 10:55:12 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1263.000; Sat, 28 Oct 2017 10:55:12 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Stephen Farrell , Peter Yee , 'John C Klensin' CC: 'NomComDiscussion' , 'NomCom Chair 2017' Thread-Topic: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" Thread-Index: AQHTRsiE55WWCJX6hk63Iqd9YTsfKKLoSbsAgAAWIICAAABCgIAAC6KAgAAEb4CAAAEpAIAAEPuAgAmoLQCAADUZgIAGt+CAgACJ4wCAAAh+AIAABSiA Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 14:55:11 +0000 Message-ID: <6520FE05-013C-40A9-B0EC-782DEBC54120@akamai.com> References: <6.2.5.6.2.20171016135236.12dcaa60@elandnews.com> <3E158B61-DCF7-485C-B350-DA14B2B8CBDA@akamai.com> <8CB73C9E-9BF2-4252-A98A-D5AA1FE597DC@akamai.com> <5BDAF4B0-FE20-4940-B436-683209FAC9C9@akamai.com> <70A26384995DDC19DC8E2CAC@PSB> <09f301d34fb0$fe5925d0$fb0b7170$@akayla.com> <5c51ab08-13f7-0579-6d1e-4e73575c10e4@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <5c51ab08-13f7-0579-6d1e-4e73575c10e4@cs.tcd.ie> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.27.0.171010 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.32.218] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <59AC3A3B2F19964283EE0DEE56D318FF@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-28_04:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1710280207 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-10-28_04:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1710280207 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ietf-nomcom] Experiment in "full transparency" X-BeenThere: ietf-nomcom@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions of possible revisions to the NomCom process List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2017 14:55:21 -0000 VmVyeSBpbnRlcmVzdGluZyBhbmQgdXNlZnVsLCB0aGFua3MhDQogDQoNCg==