From ima-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jul 27 23:08:26 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dxyl0-0002i7-C5; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:08:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dxyky-0002hE-PP for ima@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:08:24 -0400 Received: from sniper.icu.ac.kr (sniper.icu.ac.kr [210.107.128.51]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id XAA28708 for ; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:08:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (snipe 3218 invoked by alias); 28 Jul 2005 12:08:25 +0900 Received: from newcat@icu.ac.kr with Spamsniper 2.91.12 (Processed in 0.031312 secs); Received: from unknown (HELO ?220.69.185.30?) (Z@220.69.185.30) by unknown with SMTP; 28 Jul 2005 12:08:25 +0900 X-RCPTTO: ima@lists.ietf.org Message-ID: <42E84BFB.10903@icu.ac.kr> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 12:07:39 +0900 From: yangwoo ko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ima@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [Ima] ALT-address X-BeenThere: ima@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "IMA \(Internationalized eMail Address\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ima-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@lists.ietf.org Resending just to test whether the mailist list works for me and to get some responds from others regarding this issue. --- Dear John, I would like to ask/raise three questions/issues regarding the ALT-address. Though some of them may be beyond the scope of our draft and yours, we need to consider them to make I-email workable in real world. (1) How to enter it? According to your draft, we should not try to generate an ALT-address from an I-email-address. It means there should be a way for a user to obtain the ALT-address and input it into MUA. One of possible ways is to use electronic name card (e.g. vCard). As of today, we obtain email addresses in various ways. We may copy and paste them from (web) documents. We may get them during phone calls. For those non structured or off-line situations, how can we deliver the ALT-address without too much pain? (2) Can I extract both I-email-address and ALT-address from email messages? ALT-addresses are defined within the context of SMTP. Thus, we do not have them in mail messages in my box. Then, how can I generate the proper ALT-addresses (or I-email-addresses) from email addresses appeared in message header? You draft mentions only Return-Path field. What about other fields? (3) Are they same? Your draft allows an I-email-address and an ALT-address may be designated to different mailboxes. However, we think that those two boxes are for the (logically) same user. There is no algorithmic way to uniquely generate an ALT-address from a given I-email-address. Thus, there is no way to verify that an I-email-address and an ALt-address are destined to the same user. What if an I-email-address and an ALT-address in an email designate different users? The mail will be delivered to different users depending on the status of I-email capability on the route. This may happen due to errors of sending users or even attacks by malicious users. I have not yet found any possible attack through this discrepancy. But, there could be ... With my best regards _______________________________________________ Ima mailing list Ima@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jul 27 23:31:27 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dxz7H-0000qG-7R; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:31:27 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dxz7G-0000qB-DP for ima@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:31:26 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA00156 for ; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:31:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.cnnic.cn ([159.226.7.151] helo=cnnic.cn) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DxzcY-0005BI-4C for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 00:03:52 -0400 Received: (eyou send program); Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:30:48 +0800 Message-ID: <322521448.19563@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO cnnicyaojk) (159.226.6.18) by 159.226.7.151 with SMTP; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:30:48 +0800 Message-ID: <01e401c59324$941113a0$1206e29f@cnnicyaojk> From: "YAO Jiankang" To: References: <6250F560395B41E764C431E5@scan.jck.com> <42E5F2F0.8090707@mrko.pe.kr> <322390831.94208@cnnic.cn> <322437283.04780@cnnic.cn> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:29:36 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c Cc: Subject: [Ima] Re: Email local-part internationalization X-BeenThere: ima@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "IMA \(Internationalized eMail Address\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0100584708==" Sender: 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Received: from [209.187.148.215] (helo=scan.jck.com) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DxzIU-000IdG-25; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:43:02 -0400 Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:43:02 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: YAO Jiankang , yangwoo ko Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <322437274.25070@cnnic.cn>, <002e01c59260$97a70bb0$1206e29f@cnnicyaojk> References: <6250F560395B41E764C431E5@scan.jck.com> <42E5F2F0.8090707@mrko.pe.kr> <322390831.94208@cnnic.cn> <322437274.25070@cnnic.cn>, <002e01c59260$97a70bb0$1206e29f@cnnicyaojk> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.1.1 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: [Ima] Re: Email local-part internationalization X-BeenThere: ima@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "IMA \(Internationalized eMail Address\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ima-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@lists.ietf.org --On Wednesday, 27 July, 2005 12:06 +0800 YAO Jiankang wrote: >... >> As far as I know, nothing further has occurred besides >> agreement about a time. Typically for informal meetings >> during IETF, we won't have a specific venue until the >> Secretariat gets to Paris and settles in. I would be >> surprised if that happens before Sunday. Watch for email >> Sunday night or Monday, Paris time. >> >> > And do we need to start to prepare agenda for the meeting? >> >> No. You might bring a list of topics you want to discuss, >> but I believe the main theme of this discussion will be "how >> do we begin and continue to make progress on this subject". > > Dear John, > Good. We can have this theme of this discussion be "how do we > begin and continue to make progress on this subject". > > According my personal experience, if the meeting has an agenda, > we can move it through smoothly. Generally, this is true. But this is going to be an informal discussion with the ADs and a few other relevant IETF people. If you see it as a "meeting", especially one with presentations or a fixed agenda, you will miss an opportunity for discussion that has, unfortunately, become fairly rare in the IETF. > Althoug we don't need an formal agenda, I suggest a loose > agenda as the following for this meeting. > Meeting Chair or Presider : John C Klensin In practice, this will work out to be one of the ADs or others. I am just a participant who is trying to make this work and to make progress... just like, I assume, everyone else on this distribution. > 1)Presentation: > Opening speech: John C Klensin > Presentation from participants: > Any participants can give an presentation > (By the way, I'd like to talk something > about JET's effort for IMA and JET's future Plan or may > domonstrate some ACE@ACE solutions which has been tested by > CNNIC, Yangwoo Ko may talk someting, Yoneya may talk something) See above. If you, or we, try to do any formal presentations, I predict we will quickly be in the room by ourselves. This is not a BOF or other open meeting but something that is much more rare and useful: an opportunity to sit down with the IETF leadership and figure out, together, how to make best progress. A BOF, by contrast, is an opportunity to present ideas to them and others which they can reject. I prefer, and recommend, the harmony that comes from working together to develop a solution rather than having one body present a request to another. > 2)Discussion > anyone can join this discussion. > 3) Summary > > of course, our final aim in this meeting is to prepare > something for next BoF in Canada. after next BoF, we hope that > we can form a WG for IMA to solve this problem. Actually, if this meeting is successful, we may be able to move directly toward a draft WG charter, skipping a BOF in Canada entirely and having a WG by then. I cannot attach a probability to that, but, if we can reach agreement among ourselves and with the ADs, then a BOF is a waste of time (and not required by the IETF's procedural rules). > I believe that with John's many years' experiences in IETF, as > the Presider for this meeting, you and us will make this > meeting as good as possible. it seems that you have to do more > than us. (Thanks.) We are all in this together. Please think of me rather more as one who tries to facilitate progress rather than as a Presider. regards, john _______________________________________________ Ima mailing list Ima@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jul 27 23:49:42 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DxzOw-0005bp-Oy; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:49:42 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DxzOv-0005ab-1b for ima@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:49:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA01258 for ; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:49:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.jck.com ([209.187.148.211] helo=bs.jck.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DxzuH-0005ey-64 for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 00:22:07 -0400 Received: from [209.187.148.215] (helo=scan.jck.com) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DxzOr-000IgZ-G8; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:49:37 -0400 Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:49:37 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: YAO Jiankang , ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ima] Re: Email local-part internationalization Message-ID: <8B3603FD1757E543FF497AA2@scan.jck.com> In-Reply-To: <322521448.19563@cnnic.cn>, <01e401c59324$941113a0$1206e29f@cnnicyaojk> References: <6250F560395B41E764C431E5@scan.jck.com> <42E5F2F0.8090707@mrko.pe.kr> <322390831.94208@cnnic.cn> <322437283.04780@cnnic.cn> <322521448.19563@cnnic.cn>, <01e401c59324$941113a0$1206e29f@cnnicyaojk> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.1.1 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ima@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "IMA \(Internationalized eMail Address\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ima-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@lists.ietf.org --On Thursday, 28 July, 2005 11:29 +0800 YAO Jiankang wrote: > the following meeting, we 'd better join it. on the agenda, > James or others members has a five-minutes to talk or present > about IMA. It is a chance for us to show our ideas. > > MONDAY, August 1, 2005 >... > Internationalized Email Addresses (5m) > James Seng or stand-in James or others, My strong recommendation is that whomever does this keep it very low-key and balanced, focusing on the difficulties of the problem and the importance of a solution. If anyone tries to "sell" a simplistic ACE solution, there is likely to be a reaction from the email experts in the audience that could set things back considerably. Also, I strongly recommend against even mentioning the Tuesday meeting during this presentation. If the ADs want to do that, they will. But, if you/we mention it, we will put ourselves and the ADs in a difficult position if members of the audience who are not involved in this work (and have no knowledge) decide they want to attend. Just my opinion, of course. john _______________________________________________ Ima mailing list Ima@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jul 27 23:50:32 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DxzPk-0005zz-TG; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:50:32 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DxzPk-0005zI-89 for ima@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:50:32 -0400 Received: from cnnic.cn (smtp2.cnnic.cn [159.226.7.151]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id XAA01308 for ; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:50:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: (eyou send program); Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:49:48 +0800 Message-ID: <322522588.23720@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO cnnicyaojk) (159.226.6.18) by 159.226.7.151 with SMTP; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:49:48 +0800 Message-ID: <025301c59327$3bd21b00$1206e29f@cnnicyaojk> From: "YAO Jiankang" To: "John C Klensin" References: <6250F560395B41E764C431E5@scan.jck.com> <42E5F2F0.8090707@mrko.pe.kr> <322390831.94208@cnnic.cn> <322437274.25070@cnnic.cn>, <002e01c59260$97a70bb0$1206e29f@cnnicyaojk> <322522180.22905@cnnic.cn> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:48:36 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: [Ima] Re: Email local-part internationalization X-BeenThere: ima@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "IMA \(Internationalized eMail Address\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0371997126==" Sender: ima-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@lists.ietf.org --===============0371997126== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" 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Ima@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima --===============0371997126==-- From ima-bounces@lists.ietf.org Wed Jul 27 23:57:12 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DxzWC-0007pr-Fv; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:57:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DxzWA-0007pm-Be for ima@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:57:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA01526 for ; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:57:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.cnnic.cn ([159.226.7.151] helo=cnnic.cn) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dy01R-0005nj-Fm for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 00:29:36 -0400 Received: (eyou send program); Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:56:27 +0800 Message-ID: <322522987.23720@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO cnnicyaojk) (159.226.6.18) by 159.226.7.151 with SMTP; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:56:27 +0800 Message-ID: <027901c59328$29cad220$1206e29f@cnnicyaojk> From: "YAO Jiankang" To: "John C Klensin" , References: <6250F560395B41E764C431E5@scan.jck.com> <42E5F2F0.8090707@mrko.pe.kr> <322390831.94208@cnnic.cn> <322437283.04780@cnnic.cn> <322521448.19563@cnnic.cn>, <01e401c59324$941113a0$1206e29f@cnnicyaojk> <322522571.22359@cnnic.cn> Subject: Re: [Ima] Re: Email local-part internationalization Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:55:15 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Cc: X-BeenThere: ima@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "IMA \(Internationalized eMail Address\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2069193782==" Sender: ima-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@lists.ietf.org --===============2069193782== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KRnJvbTogIkpvaG4gQyBLbGVuc2luIiA8 a2xlbnNpbkBqY2suY29tPg0KVG86ICJZQU8gSmlhbmthbmciIDx5YW9qa0Bjbm5pYy5jbj47IDxp bWFAaWV0Zi5vcmc+DQpTZW50OiBUaHVyc2RheSwgSnVseSAyOCwgMjAwNSAxMTo0OSBBTQ0KU3Vi amVjdDogUmU6IFtJbWFdIFJlOiBFbWFpbCBsb2NhbC1wYXJ0IGludGVybmF0aW9uYWxpemF0aW9u DQoNCg0KPiBNeSBzdHJvbmcgcmVjb21tZW5kYXRpb24gaXMgdGhhdCB3aG9tZXZlciBkb2VzIHRo aXMga2VlcCBpdCB2ZXJ5DQo+IGxvdy1rZXkgYW5kIGJhbGFuY2VkLCBmb2N1c2luZyBvbiB0aGUg ZGlmZmljdWx0aWVzIG9mIHRoZQ0KPiBwcm9ibGVtIGFuZCB0aGUgaW1wb3J0YW5jZSBvZiBhIHNv bHV0aW9uLiAgIElmIGFueW9uZSB0cmllcyB0bw0KPiAic2VsbCIgYSBzaW1wbGlzdGljIEFDRSBz b2x1dGlvbiwgdGhlcmUgaXMgbGlrZWx5IHRvIGJlIGENCj4gcmVhY3Rpb24gZnJvbSB0aGUgZW1h 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_______________________________________________ Ima mailing list Ima@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima --===============2069193782==-- From ima-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jul 28 00:40:06 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dy0Bh-0001xZ-OV; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 00:40:05 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dy0Bf-0001wr-98 for ima@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 00:40:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA03158 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 00:39:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.jck.com ([209.187.148.211] helo=bs.jck.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dy0h2-0006hQ-P4 for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 01:12:29 -0400 Received: from [209.187.148.215] (helo=scan.jck.com) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dy0BY-000J2G-65; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 00:39:56 -0400 Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 00:39:56 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: yangwoo ko , ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ima] ALT-address Message-ID: <77889D7FB1F7EBA0A073ABB7@scan.jck.com> In-Reply-To: <42E84BFB.10903@icu.ac.kr> References: <42E84BFB.10903@icu.ac.kr> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.1.1 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a069a8e8835d39ce36e425c148267a7b Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: ima@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "IMA \(Internationalized eMail Address\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ima-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@lists.ietf.org --On Thursday, 28 July, 2005 12:07 +0900 yangwoo ko wrote: > > Resending just to test whether the mailist list works for > me and to get some responds from others regarding this > issue. I apologize for not responding to the earlier copy of this note which you sent me separately (probably after discovering that I wasn't on the other list). For your information and that of others, I am working very hard to get ready to leave for Paris and to finish other work that needs to be done first. These technical notes on the IMA topic take me a long time to write because the issues are complex and I want to answer precisely. But that means you will probably see fewer and fewer responses between now and next week. More below. >... > I would like to ask/raise three questions/issues regarding > the ALT-address. Though some of them may be beyond the scope > of our draft and yours, we need to consider them to make > I-email workable in real world. > > (1) How to enter it? > > According to your draft, we should not try to generate an > ALT-address from an I-email-address. It means there should > be a way for a user to obtain the ALT-address and input it > into MUA. One of possible ways is to use electronic name > card (e.g. vCard). As of today, we obtain email addresses > in various ways. We may copy and paste them from (web) > documents. We may get them during phone calls. For those > non structured or off-line situations, how can we deliver > the ALT-address without too much pain? Please see my note from yesterday. Take a phone call as an example. If you speak on the phone to a colleague in Korea, you will presumably give him or her your address in Korean. You can also verify that address can be used by both of you. So there is no need to have an Alt-Address at all. By contrast, if you and I talk on the phone, you are going to give me an ASCII address because, if you pronounced your Korean address to me, I would have no idea what to do with it, since I cannot write, or even effectively look up, either Hanji or Hangul characters. So, again, you would not need an Alt-Address. In practice, I believe that the Alt-Addresses are needed only when (i) you are communicating with someone for whom your native-script address is intelligible and (ii) you do know the state of each other's mail servers or the path between them. That case will certainly occur, but it may not be common in practice. There are actually a very large number of ways by which the purpose of an Alt-Address could be accomplished. What I don't think anyone has done is to really work through all of the cases (certainly I have not). Which ones are most effective depend on assumptions about address books, server availability, and so on. For that purpose, I think we are going to need a face-to-face meeting and a whiteboard to actually try to do some engineering design work together. Let me give two examples which are actually alternatives to the Alt-Address idea, rather than answers to the question of how one obtains one: (i) Instead of putting an alt-address in as a parameter, one uses an LDAP (or equivalent) server whose address either appears as a parameter or is obtained by a service-location DNS query associated with the domain part of the address. If the primary, internationalized, address is unusable, the SMTP sender queries the LDAP server with the i18n address and gets back a corresponding ASCII string. Of course, this would require that the LDAP server exist and be populated with the relevant records, but it completely removes the burden from the end user. (ii) Instead of putting an alt-address in as a parameter, we use the existing VRFY command to support a slightly new function, but one that is consistent with its definition (as long as UTF-8 VRFY arguments are permitted by whatever ESMTP extension permits i18n addresses at all). If the primary, internationalized, i18n address is unusable, the client sends VRFY with that address to the server for the mailbox domain and that server returns an appropriate ASCII address. The second of these does not require end user intervention or knowledge, although it probably requires the ability to read the local alias table. In both cases, there are issues with relays and offline users that I have not explored. But the point is that there are many options possible. > (2) Can I extract both I-email-address and ALT-address from > email messages? > > ALT-addresses are defined within the context of SMTP. Thus, > we do not have them in mail messages in my box. Then, how > can I generate the proper ALT-addresses (or I-email-addresses) > from email addresses appeared in message header? You draft > mentions only Return-Path field. What about other fields? Largely because I just ran out of time, but partially because, again, the issues have not been explored fully enough, the draft does some hand waving about headers and then points to Paul Hoffman's long-expired draft about just making the entire header collection into UTF-8. My recollection of the discussion of 18 months or so ago was that we considered both the option of having some headers exist in both ASCII form and UTF-8 form. We also talked about using message encapsulation to handle the real (i.e., internationalized) headers if it was necessary to downgrade to ASCII. Since the restrictions on non-ASCII characters in headers ultimately apply only to the 822/2822 set and other rules can be created for anything that is embedded in MIME structures, encapsulated UTF-8 headers could stay in UTF-8, presumably with some type of content-transfer-encoding. If we shift the entire header collection into UTF-8 and encapsulate if needed, then there is still an issue about supplemental headers (or supplemental subfields) for the Alt-address if that is needed, but the primary addresses are unchanged. If we do not, then we have a fairly long list of other issues. > (3) Are they same? > > Your draft allows an I-email-address and an ALT-address may be > designated to different mailboxes. However, we think that > those two boxes are for the (logically) same user. I think they usually will be. Perhaps even "almost always". But, given other constraints imposed by the email system, there is no reason to make that a protocol requirement and, I believe, several reasons not to. One example has to do with some of the "additional processing" mentioned in the draft and an earlier note. Let me take a far-fetched example, just to illustrate what might happen here. Suppose you told me that it would be very convenient for you if I provided a mailbox name in Hangul. Ok, by patching or configuring my MTA to disable its ASCII-only checks and getting it to support the relevant SMTP option, I could presumably arrange that, making an alias that points to my standard mailbox. So far, one user, one mailbox. But the nature of these things is such that, if I support a Hangul address for myself, sooner or later you or someone else in Korea will accidentally send a message whose body is in Hangul to me. Remember I can't read such message bodies, even to pronounce the syllables without understanding the vocabulary. But, if that happens several times and I can find a decent automatic translation program that can handle Korean in Hangul-> English, I'm going to have a lot of incentive to attach my Hangul address to an agent that will inspect the message body looking for Unicode character ranges that correspond to Hangul and, if it finds them, send the text off for translation before depositing the message in my mailbox. Still the same mailbox, of course, but the processing for one address is different from the processing for another. For those of us who have been using email intensely for many years, the idea of "one user - one mailbox" is, itself, too narrow. Offhand, I don't know how many different mailboxes I have set up at the moment, but it is more than five or six. All sorts of routing occurs among mailboxes and folders, different processing occurs at different addresses, and so on. And I use domains to receive mail that it is likely that you have not heard of. This should not be relevant, but it might be. > There is no algorithmic way to uniquely generate an > ALT-address from a given I-email-address. Thus, there is > no way to verify that an I-email-address and an ALt-address > are destined to the same user. That is correct. Given other elements of the email system, there is, of course, no way to verify that an ASCII email address will go to the user you expect. That is why, when things are important, we have mechanisms for encrypting messages and various "deliver URL rather than message text" techniques are popular in some cases. > What if an I-email-address and an ALT-address in an email > designate different users? The mail will be delivered to > different users depending on the status of I-email > capability on the route. This may happen due to errors of > sending users or even attacks by malicious users. I have > not yet found any possible attack through this discrepancy. > But, there could be ... Of course. But either the sending user has to be deceived or something has to tamper with the message en route. In the first case, the deception could occur with the ASCII address today. In the second, anything that can do that sort of tampering can do so more generally. Again, suppose I ask you to send me a piece of mail addressed to john@bogus.domain.name for some reason of convenience. Since this message is not digitally signed and you haven't verified the signature through some mechanism you trust, you cannot be certain that the request to use that address instead is valid and coming from me. Assuming it is a valid request from me, you still have no way to know where that address is going, to whom it is being forwarded, etc. All of those issues are matters for the mail server that answers to addresses at bogus.domain.name, and it is fairly secretive. If you want to be sure that only I can read the mail, we know how to provide that protection. But, if you want to be sure the mail is, in fact, going to a destination which you can guarantee and over which you have control... well, not with SMTP. So, yes, there is an attack in this area, but neither i18n addresses nor Alt-Addresses change the properties of that attack at all. best regards, john _______________________________________________ Ima mailing list Ima@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jul 28 00:42:07 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dy0De-0002SW-RP; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 00:42:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dy0Dc-0002SR-A6 for ima@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 00:42:04 -0400 Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA03257 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 00:42:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.187.148.215] (helo=scan.jck.com) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dy0D6-000J3A-Jn; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 00:41:32 -0400 Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 00:41:32 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: YAO Jiankang Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <322522588.23720@cnnic.cn>, <025301c59327$3bd21b00$1206e29f@cnnicyaojk> References: <6250F560395B41E764C431E5@scan.jck.com> <42E5F2F0.8090707@mrko.pe.kr> <322390831.94208@cnnic.cn> <322437274.25070@cnnic.cn>, <002e01c59260$97a70bb0$1206e29f@cnnicyaojk> <322522180.22905@cnnic.cn> <322522588.23720@cnnic.cn>, <025301c59327$3bd21b00$1206e29f@cnnicyaojk> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.1.1 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: [Ima] Re: Email local-part internationalization X-BeenThere: ima@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "IMA \(Internationalized eMail Address\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ima-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@lists.ietf.org --On Thursday, 28 July, 2005 11:48 +0800 YAO Jiankang wrote: > Dear John, > Thanks a lot for your clarification. > BTW, is this meeting open for all or only for those who we > invited? Invited. Everyone on this list who will be at the IETF meeting is invited. Others are up to the ADs. john _______________________________________________ Ima mailing list Ima@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From dlvjybvseokyre@hotmail.com Thu Jul 28 06:10:45 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dy5Lh-0002eb-58; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:10:45 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA12582; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:10:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [219.146.111.90] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dy5r6-0007eQ-Dx; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:43:14 -0400 Received: from .webhost6.alterusa.com id CFB62604DE; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 14:11:05 +0300 Received: by .webhost6.starnetusa.net (Postfix, from userid 891) id CFB60784DE; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 04:07:05 -0700 Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 10:11:05 -0100 Message-Id: <29061130090241.CFB4673DE@.starnetusa.net> From: "Marlene Boone" To: rserpool-request@ietf.org Cc: rsvp-archive@ietf.org, saad@ietf.org, saad-admin@ietf.org, saad-request@ietf.org, sctp-impl-archive@ietf.org, seamoby@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org Subject: Cailis Softabs is the Best zFeoSh X-Spam-Score: 3.3 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a "Ci-ialis Softabs" is better than Pfizer Viiagrra and normal Ci-ialis because: - Guaaraantees 36 hours lasting - Safe to take, no side effects at all - Boost and increase se-xual performance - Haarder e-rectiions and quick recharge - Proven and certified by experts and doctors - only $3.99 per tabs Cllick heree: http://pockmarked.com/cs/?ronn o-ut of mai-lling lisst: http://pockmarked.com/rm.php?ronn Cz8V From hipsec-bounces@lists.ietf.org Thu Jul 28 06:12:12 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dy5N6-000383-17; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:12:12 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dy5N5-00037y-FI for hipsec@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:12:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA12694 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from twilight.cs.hut.fi ([130.233.40.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dy5sT-0007ht-SM for hipsec@ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:44:41 -0400 Received: by twilight.cs.hut.fi (Postfix, from userid 60001) id 2A7CD2D65; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:11:54 +0300 (EEST) Received: from kekkonen.cs.hut.fi (kekkonen.cs.hut.fi [130.233.41.50]) by twilight.cs.hut.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id C51122D5D for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:11:53 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from mkomu@localhost) by kekkonen.cs.hut.fi (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.10.2) id j6SABrC01208; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:11:53 +0300 (EEST) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 13:11:53 +0300 (EEST) From: Miika Komu X-X-Sender: mkomu@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi To: hipsec@ietf.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4-niksula20040914 (2005-06-05) on twilight.cs.hut.fi X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=failed version=3.0.4-niksula20040914 X-Spam-Niksula: No X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: Subject: [Hipsec] base exchange implementation feedback X-BeenThere: hipsec@lists.ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "This is the official IETF Mailing List for the HIP Working Group." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: hipsec-bounces@lists.ietf.org Errors-To: hipsec-bounces@lists.ietf.org We had interops with Jeff yesterday. Once again, OpenHIP and HIPL base exchange interoperated successfully. Jeff said that OpenHIP and Ericsson's BSD HIP base exchange interoperated as well. I hope we get an RFC soon because the draft seems quite mature and technically sound to me. All of the changes introduced between base-02 and base-03 were implementable and reasonable. We have few editorial suggestion based on some minor implementation caveats we run into: * ESP_INFO usage in the base exchange: mention explicitly what to fill in the fields in both the initiator and responder * Parameter type order strictly enforced, except for 2048-4095 * Put this explicitly separate sentence rather than in a in the subordinate clause ("The type-field value also describes the order of these fields in the packet, except..) -- Miika Komu miika@iki.fi http://www.iki.fi/miika/ _______________________________________________ Hipsec mailing list Hipsec@lists.ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hipsec From ima-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 28 06:12:22 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dy5NG-00038z-MK; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:12:22 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dy5N9-00038J-7i for ima@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:12:19 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA12699 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:12:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.cnnic.cn ([159.226.7.151] helo=cnnic.cn) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dy5sQ-0007h9-Uu for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:44:44 -0400 Received: (eyou send program); Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:11:25 +0800 Message-ID: <322545485.24511@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO cnnicyaojk) (159.226.6.18) by 159.226.7.151 with SMTP; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:11:25 +0800 Message-ID: <004301c5935c$8bc1b7d0$1206e29f@cnnicyaojk> From: "YAO Jiankang" To: "John C Klensin" , "yangwoo ko" References: <42E84BFB.10903@icu.ac.kr> <322525649.01966@cnnic.cn> Subject: Re: [Ima] ALT-address Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:10:13 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 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ima@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:59:29 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA15815 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 06:59:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.cnnic.cn ([159.226.7.151] helo=cnnic.cn) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dy6cC-0000kR-Kk for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 07:31:59 -0400 Received: (eyou send program); Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:58:50 +0800 Message-ID: <322548330.01097@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO cnnicyaojk) (159.226.6.18) by 159.226.7.151 with SMTP; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:58:50 +0800 Message-ID: <010001c59363$2b54f2c0$1206e29f@cnnicyaojk> From: "YAO Jiankang" To: References: <322361860.29722@cnnic.cn> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:57:38 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f8184d7d4d1b986353eb58ea3e887935 Subject: [IMA] Re: some issues about IMA in your draft X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "IMA \(Internationalized eMail Address\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0139394620==" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org --===============0139394620== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RGVhciBhbGwsIA0KDQogICBXZSdkIGJldHRlciBpbnZpdGUgdGhvc2Ugd2hvIGFyZSBpbnRlcmVz dGVkIGluIElNQSB0byBqb2luIHRoaXMgZW1haWwgbGlzdCBpbWFAaWV0Zi5vcmcuDQoNCiAgaWYg c29tZW9uZSB3YW50IHRvIGJlIGFkZGVkLCB5b3UgY2FuIHZpc2lzdCB0aGlzIHdlYnNpdGUgaHR0 cHM6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaW1hIHRvIGlucHV0IHlvdXIgZW1h aWwgYWRkcmVzcyBpbiB0aGUgZmlyc3QgYmxhbmQgYW5kIHN1Ym1pdCBpdC4NCg0Kb3IgdGVsbCBt 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ima@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:14:36 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA11432 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:14:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.cnnic.cn ([159.226.7.151] helo=cnnic.cn) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DyJxq-0007Zj-Io for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:47:13 -0400 Received: (eyou send program); Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:13:55 +0800 Message-ID: <322599635.19643@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO cnnicyaojk) (159.226.6.18) by 159.226.7.151 with SMTP; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:13:55 +0800 Message-ID: <009901c593da$a00b5ce0$1206e29f@cnnicyaojk> From: "YAO Jiankang" To: Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:12:44 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 4d9ae72af46718088458d214998cc683 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([210.107.128.51]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DyLE7-0000tC-AO for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:08:07 -0400 Received: (snipe 622 invoked by alias); 29 Jul 2005 11:35:29 +0900 Received: from newcat@icu.ac.kr with Spamsniper 2.91.12 (Processed in 0.046031 secs); Received: from unknown (HELO ?210.107.139.89?) (Z@210.107.139.89) by unknown with SMTP; 29 Jul 2005 11:35:29 +0900 X-RCPTTO: klensin@jck.com, ima@ietf.org Message-ID: <42E995C0.8050801@icu.ac.kr> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:34:40 +0900 From: yangwoo ko User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (Windows/20050716) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John C Klensin Subject: Re: [Ima] ALT-address References: <42E84BFB.10903@icu.ac.kr> <77889D7FB1F7EBA0A073ABB7@scan.jck.com> In-Reply-To: <77889D7FB1F7EBA0A073ABB7@scan.jck.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 03fb21b15d5177c512a4caa19876f30a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ima@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "IMA \(Internationalized eMail Address\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Dear John and others, Now points get quite clear to me. Though JET's draft and John's draft happen to use the same name "ALT-address", their usages are a little bit different. The common thing is that the ALT-address is to be used when given email address is not usable by anything by any reason. The fundamental difference is that JET's draft aims to realize IMA quickly while John's draft tries to provide rather a longer term solution to the IMA issue. As pointed out by John, there are various options we can take. I wish we could come (or at least start to come) up with good findings during the next week at Paris. See you at Paris. John C Klensin wrote: > > > --On Thursday, 28 July, 2005 12:07 +0900 yangwoo ko > wrote: > > >>Resending just to test whether the mailist list works for >>me and to get some responds from others regarding this >>issue. > > > I apologize for not responding to the earlier copy of this note > which you sent me separately (probably after discovering that I > wasn't on the other list). For your information and that of > others, I am working very hard to get ready to leave for Paris > and to finish other work that needs to be done first. These > technical notes on the IMA topic take me a long time to write > because the issues are complex and I want to answer precisely. > But that means you will probably see fewer and fewer responses > between now and next week. > > More below. > > >>... >>I would like to ask/raise three questions/issues regarding >>the ALT-address. Though some of them may be beyond the scope >>of our draft and yours, we need to consider them to make >>I-email workable in real world. >> >>(1) How to enter it? >> >>According to your draft, we should not try to generate an >>ALT-address from an I-email-address. It means there should >>be a way for a user to obtain the ALT-address and input it >>into MUA. One of possible ways is to use electronic name >>card (e.g. vCard). As of today, we obtain email addresses >>in various ways. We may copy and paste them from (web) >>documents. We may get them during phone calls. For those >>non structured or off-line situations, how can we deliver >>the ALT-address without too much pain? > > > Please see my note from yesterday. Take a phone call as an > example. If you speak on the phone to a colleague in Korea, you > will presumably give him or her your address in Korean. You can > also verify that address can be used by both of you. So there > is no need to have an Alt-Address at all. By contrast, if you > and I talk on the phone, you are going to give me an ASCII > address because, if you pronounced your Korean address to me, I > would have no idea what to do with it, since I cannot write, or > even effectively look up, either Hanji or Hangul characters. > So, again, you would not need an Alt-Address. > > In practice, I believe that the Alt-Addresses are needed only > when (i) you are communicating with someone for whom your > native-script address is intelligible and (ii) you do know the > state of each other's mail servers or the path between them. > That case will certainly occur, but it may not be common in > practice. > > There are actually a very large number of ways by which the > purpose of an Alt-Address could be accomplished. What I don't > think anyone has done is to really work through all of the cases > (certainly I have not). Which ones are most effective depend on > assumptions about address books, server availability, and so on. > For that purpose, I think we are going to need a face-to-face > meeting and a whiteboard to actually try to do some engineering > design work together. > > Let me give two examples which are actually alternatives to the > Alt-Address idea, rather than answers to the question of how one > obtains one: > > (i) Instead of putting an alt-address in as a parameter, > one uses an LDAP (or equivalent) server whose address > either appears as a parameter or is obtained by a > service-location DNS query associated with the domain > part of the address. If the primary, internationalized, > address is unusable, the SMTP sender queries the LDAP > server with the i18n address and gets back a > corresponding ASCII string. Of course, this would > require that the LDAP server exist and be populated with > the relevant records, but it completely removes the > burden from the end user. > > (ii) Instead of putting an alt-address in as a > parameter, we use the existing VRFY command to support a > slightly new function, but one that is consistent with > its definition (as long as UTF-8 VRFY arguments are > permitted by whatever ESMTP extension permits i18n > addresses at all). If the primary, internationalized, > i18n address is unusable, the client sends VRFY with > that address to the server for the mailbox domain and > that server returns an appropriate ASCII address. > > The second of these does not require end user intervention or > knowledge, although it probably requires the ability to read the > local alias table. In both cases, there are issues with relays > and offline users that I have not explored. But the point is > that there are many options possible. > > >>(2) Can I extract both I-email-address and ALT-address from >>email messages? >> >>ALT-addresses are defined within the context of SMTP. Thus, >>we do not have them in mail messages in my box. Then, how >>can I generate the proper ALT-addresses (or I-email-addresses) >>from email addresses appeared in message header? You draft >>mentions only Return-Path field. What about other fields? > > > Largely because I just ran out of time, but partially because, > again, the issues have not been explored fully enough, the draft > does some hand waving about headers and then points to Paul > Hoffman's long-expired draft about just making the entire header > collection into UTF-8. My recollection of the discussion of 18 > months or so ago was that we considered both the option of > having some headers exist in both ASCII form and UTF-8 form. We > also talked about using message encapsulation to handle the real > (i.e., internationalized) headers if it was necessary to > downgrade to ASCII. Since the restrictions on non-ASCII > characters in headers ultimately apply only to the 822/2822 set > and other rules can be created for anything that is embedded in > MIME structures, encapsulated UTF-8 headers could stay in UTF-8, > presumably with some type of content-transfer-encoding. If we > shift the entire header collection into UTF-8 and encapsulate if > needed, then there is still an issue about supplemental headers > (or supplemental subfields) for the Alt-address if that is > needed, but the primary addresses are unchanged. If we do not, > then we have a fairly long list of other issues. > > >>(3) Are they same? >> >>Your draft allows an I-email-address and an ALT-address may be >>designated to different mailboxes. However, we think that >>those two boxes are for the (logically) same user. > > > I think they usually will be. Perhaps even "almost always". > But, given other constraints imposed by the email system, there > is no reason to make that a protocol requirement and, I believe, > several reasons not to. One example has to do with some of > the "additional processing" mentioned in the draft and an > earlier note. Let me take a far-fetched example, just to > illustrate what might happen here. Suppose you told me that it > would be very convenient for you if I provided a mailbox name in > Hangul. Ok, by patching or configuring my MTA to disable its > ASCII-only checks and getting it to support the relevant SMTP > option, I could presumably arrange that, making an alias that > points to my standard mailbox. So far, one user, one mailbox. > > But the nature of these things is such that, if I support a > Hangul address for myself, sooner or later you or someone else > in Korea will accidentally send a message whose body is in > Hangul to me. Remember I can't read such message bodies, even > to pronounce the syllables without understanding the vocabulary. > But, if that happens several times and I can find a decent > automatic translation program that can handle Korean in Hangul-> > English, I'm going to have a lot of incentive to attach my > Hangul address to an agent that will inspect the message body > looking for Unicode character ranges that correspond to Hangul > and, if it finds them, send the text off for translation before > depositing the message in my mailbox. Still the same mailbox, > of course, but the processing for one address is different from > the processing for another. > > For those of us who have been using email intensely for many > years, the idea of "one user - one mailbox" is, itself, too > narrow. Offhand, I don't know how many different mailboxes I > have set up at the moment, but it is more than five or six. > All sorts of routing occurs among mailboxes and folders, > different processing occurs at different addresses, and so on. > And I use domains to receive mail that it is likely that you > have not heard of. This should not be relevant, but it might be. > > >>There is no algorithmic way to uniquely generate an >>ALT-address from a given I-email-address. Thus, there is >>no way to verify that an I-email-address and an ALt-address >>are destined to the same user. > > > That is correct. Given other elements of the email system, > there is, of course, no way to verify that an ASCII email > address will go to the user you expect. That is why, when > things are important, we have mechanisms for encrypting > messages and various "deliver URL rather than message text" > techniques are popular in some cases. > > >>What if an I-email-address and an ALT-address in an email >>designate different users? The mail will be delivered to >>different users depending on the status of I-email >>capability on the route. This may happen due to errors of >>sending users or even attacks by malicious users. I have >>not yet found any possible attack through this discrepancy. >>But, there could be ... > > > Of course. But either the sending user has to be deceived or > something has to tamper with the message en route. In the first > case, the deception could occur with the ASCII address today. > In the second, anything that can do that sort of tampering can > do so more generally. > > Again, suppose I ask you to send me a piece of mail addressed to > john@bogus.domain.name for some reason of convenience. Since > this message is not digitally signed and you haven't verified > the signature through some mechanism you trust, you cannot be > certain that the request to use that address instead is valid > and coming from me. Assuming it is a valid request from me, you > still have no way to know where that address is going, to whom > it is being forwarded, etc. All of those issues are matters for > the mail server that answers to addresses at bogus.domain.name, > and it is fairly secretive. If you want to be sure that only I > can read the mail, we know how to provide that protection. But, > if you want to be sure the mail is, in fact, going to a > destination which you can guarantee and over which you have > control... well, not with SMTP. > > So, yes, there is an attack in this area, but neither i18n > addresses nor Alt-Addresses change the properties of that attack > at all. > > best regards, > john > > > _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 29 03:44:27 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyPXf-00075b-0p; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 03:44:27 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyPXc-00075V-P2 for ima@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 03:44:25 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA18411 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 03:44:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.cnnic.cn ([159.226.7.151] helo=cnnic.cn) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DyQ37-0007mi-Ga for ima@ietf.org; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:17:05 -0400 Received: (eyou send program); Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:43:43 +0800 Message-ID: <322623023.06116@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO cnnicyaojk) (159.226.6.18) by 159.226.7.151 with SMTP; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:43:43 +0800 Message-ID: <021a01c59411$14957060$1206e29f@cnnicyaojk> From: "YAO Jiankang" To: "yangwoo ko" , "John C Klensin" References: <42E84BFB.10903@icu.ac.kr> <77889D7FB1F7EBA0A073ABB7@scan.jck.com> <322604556.02787@cnnic.cn> Subject: Re: [Ima] ALT-address Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:42:32 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Cc: ima@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "IMA \(Internationalized eMail Address\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1828457619==" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org --===============1828457619== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KRnJvbTogInlhbmd3b28ga28iIDxuZXdj YXRAaWN1LmFjLmtyPg0KVG86ICJKb2huIEMgS2xlbnNpbiIgPGtsZW5zaW5AamNrLmNvbT4NCkNj OiA8aW1hQGlldGYub3JnPg0KU2VudDogRnJpZGF5LCBKdWx5IDI5LCAyMDA1IDEwOjM0IEFNDQpT dWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW0ltYV0gQUxULWFkZHJlc3MNCg0KDQo+IA0KPiBEZWFyIEpvaG4gYW5kIG90 aGVycywNCj4gDQo+IE5vdyBwb2ludHMgZ2V0IHF1aXRlIGNsZWFyIHRvIG1lLiBUaG91Z2ggSkVU J3MgZHJhZnQgYW5kIEpvaG4ncyBkcmFmdCANCj4gaGFwcGVuIHRvIHVzZSB0aGUgc2FtZSBuYW1l ICJBTFQtYWRkcmVzcyIsIHRoZWlyIHVzYWdlcyBhcmUgYSBsaXR0bGUgYml0IA0KPiBkaWZmZXJl bnQuIFRoZSBjb21tb24gdGhpbmcgaXMgdGhhdCB0aGUgQUxULWFkZHJlc3MgaXMgdG8gYmUgdXNl ZCB3aGVuIA0KPiBnaXZlbiBlbWFpbCBhZGRyZXNzIGlzIG5vdCB1c2FibGUgYnkgYW55dGhpbmcg YnkgYW55IHJlYXNvbi4NCj4gDQo+IFRoZSBmdW5kYW1lbnRhbCBkaWZmZXJlbmNlIGlzIHRoYXQg SkVUJ3MgZHJhZnQgYWltcyB0byByZWFsaXplIElNQSANCj4gcXVpY2tseSB3aGlsZSBKb2huJ3Mg ZHJhZnQgdHJpZXMgdG8gcHJvdmlkZSByYXRoZXIgYSBsb25nZXIgdGVybSANCj4gc29sdXRpb24g dG8gdGhlIElNQSBpc3N1ZS4NCj4gDQo+IEFzIHBvaW50ZWQgb3V0IGJ5IEpvaG4sIHRoZXJlIGFy ZSB2YXJpb3VzIG9wdGlvbnMgd2UgY2FuIHRha2UuIEkgd2lzaCB3ZSANCj4gY291bGQgY29tZSAo b3IgYXQgbGVhc3Qgc3RhcnQgdG8gY29tZSkgdXAgd2l0aCBnb29kIGZpbmRpbmdzIGR1cmluZyB0 aGUgDQo+IG5leHQgd2VlayBhdCBQYXJpcy4NCj4gDQo+IFNlZSB5b3UgYXQgUGFyaXMuDQoNCg0K WWVzLCB3ZSdkIGJldHRlciB0cnkgb3VyIGJlc3QgdG8gZ2V0IGEgZ29vZCByZXN1bHQgaW4gUGFy aXMgc2luY2UgSU1BIGlzIHNvIGltcG9ydGFudCB0byB1cy4NCg0KWUFPIEppYW5rYW5nDQpDTk5J Qw== --===============1828457619== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima --===============1828457619==-- From ima-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 29 08:32:13 2005 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyU29-0007iA-PX; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:32:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyU27-0007hm-Uk for ima@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:32:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA03931 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:32:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.jck.com ([209.187.148.211] helo=bs.jck.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DyUXk-0007hB-E4 for ima@ietf.org; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:04:55 -0400 Received: from [209.187.148.215] (helo=scan.jck.com) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DyU1z-0006FY-Er; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:32:03 -0400 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:32:03 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: yangwoo ko Subject: Re: [Ima] ALT-address Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <42E995C0.8050801@icu.ac.kr> References: <42E84BFB.10903@icu.ac.kr> <77889D7FB1F7EBA0A073ABB7@scan.jck.com> <42E995C0.8050801@icu.ac.kr> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.1.1 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c83ccb5cc10e751496398f1233ca9c3a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ima@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "IMA \(Internationalized eMail Address\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org --On Friday, 29 July, 2005 11:34 +0900 yangwoo ko wrote: > > Dear John and others, > > Now points get quite clear to me. Though JET's draft and > John's draft happen to use the same name "ALT-address", their > usages are a little bit different. The common thing is that > the ALT-address is to be used when given email address is not > usable by anything by any reason. > > The fundamental difference is that JET's draft aims to realize > IMA quickly while John's draft tries to provide rather a > longer term solution to the IMA issue. Yes, but I think it is also important to understand the reason for the difference in making decisions about the options. The difference is not primarily between "quickly" and "longer term". Instead, it is about mail management and mail application options. Automatically generating an Alt-Address by simply encoding the entire local part as an ACE will work, and work well, under one condition. That condition is that all email addresses are atomic. In other words, the local part is a simple mailbox name on the recipient host with no internal structures or coding. Atomic local parts are, of course, the most common case. Certainly, they are the intended case for every public mail service (hotmail, yahoo, pobox, gmail, mail.com, etc.) that I know of. However, a decision that local parts are going to be algorithmically encoded by the sending system is essentially a decision that one will never have a structured (i.e., not atomic) local part in a non-ASCII mailbox address. Perhaps that it would even be reasonable to say "for a given mailbox either i18n or a structured address, but not structured internationalized addresses". I make enough use of structured addresses that I would be reluctant to advise users of internationalized forms to give them up forever (see below), but that is not a decision I should try to make. Much of the problem with the difference between the two approaches is due to the fact that one cannot tell whether an address is structured or not by looking at it. If one could, then it would be possible to devise a short term plan of "atomic local parts only" and then devise a longer-term plan for non-atomic local parts. But there is no algorithm for making that distinction so, unless we provide a specific and formal syntax for non-ASCII structured addresses (I think that might be hard), there is no "short term": a decision to automatically encode the Alt-Address is forever an exclusion of structured addresses. There is no rigid rule in this: one could make the decision that structured addresses are not important and will never been important. At some level, that is just an engineering tradeoff, although I would certainly hate to hear complaints, a few years in the future, about how those who use ASCII addresses have more capability than those who have decided to use local scripts. > As pointed out by John, there are various options we can take. > I wish we could come (or at least start to come) up with good > findings during the next week at Paris. I would like to suggest two design principles for thinking about these problems. Certainly, these are not the only possible design principles or guidelines, but please consider whether or not they are useful: (1) It is reasonable to talk about "short term" and "long term" solutions separately only if one can define a strategy for getting from the "short term" approach to the "long term" one. It is ok to not have the long term approach completely defined but, unless there is some logic or proof of concept of a way to shut down the short term plan and move to the longer term one, then the short term plan becomes the permanent one and we need to be prepared to live with it, and whatever restrictions it imposes, forever. Even if the long term plan is backward-compatible with the short-term one, any special processing needed to support the short-term plan will be with us forever unless there is a clear and plausible strategy for removing the short-term methods from the Internet. (2) Whatever solution we agree upon now -- for the long term or for the short term without a plan to eliminate the short term aspects completely-- will be with us for a very long time. If we need to do some extra work now to get to the desired long-term state when IMAs are widely deployed, that is a reasonable thing to do. But imposing extensive extra processing or requirements that will be around forever in the interest of making a slightly faster transition is probably not a good decision: our target should be a long-term plan with maximum flexibility and minimum extra processing and operations overhead relative to traditional email. Then we should figure out the most efficient way to get to that point... transition plans, short-term extra processing, and so on. Please do not make bad decisions for the future in order to get a little bit more deployment a little bit more quickly. We would all regret that in a few years. > See you at Paris. Yes. I look forward to continuing these discussions there and, I hope, at APAN. regards, john _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima