From ima-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 01 05:10:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcHHE-0000Yc-QF; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 05:09:20 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IcHAS-00073i-K6 for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 05:02:20 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcHAR-0006yJ-Va for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 05:02:20 -0400 Received: from smtp.cnnic.cn ([159.226.7.146] helo=cnnic.cn) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcHAL-0004lZ-7S for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 05:02:14 -0400 Received: (eyou send program); Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:02:08 +0800 Message-ID: <391229328.30566@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO yaojk) (159.226.7.245) by 159.226.7.146 with SMTP; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:02:08 +0800 Message-ID: <072f01c80409$bcce1ba0$236ff1da@yaojk> From: "YAO Jiankang" To: "Alexey Melnikov" References: <390195929.04898@cnnic.cn> Subject: Re: [EAI] EDITORIAL: draft-ietf-eai-smtpext-08.txt Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 16:35:41 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: ff03b0075c3fc728d7d60a15b4ee1ad2 Cc: ima@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0612377570==" Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org --===============0612377570== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KRnJvbTogIkFsZXhleSBNZWxuaWtvdiIg 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05:02:35 -0400 Received: from smtp.cnnic.cn ([159.226.7.146] helo=cnnic.cn) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcHAZ-0001kP-Mb for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 05:02:34 -0400 Received: (eyou send program); Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:02:08 +0800 Message-ID: <391229328.47712@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO yaojk) (159.226.7.245) by 159.226.7.146 with SMTP; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:02:08 +0800 Message-ID: <073001c80409$bceacb60$236ff1da@yaojk> From: "YAO Jiankang" To: "Yangwoo Ko" References: <390204127.14476@cnnic.cn> Subject: Re: [EAI] Editorial change suggestions -- smtpext-08 Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 17:01:20 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Cc: ima@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: 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list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima --===============1016972411==-- From ima-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 01 06:20:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcINT-0003Q3-1M; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 06:19:51 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IcINR-0003Mh-2c for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 06:19:49 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcINQ-0003IB-PB for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 06:19:48 -0400 Received: from lon-mail-4.gradwell.net ([193.111.201.130]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcINE-000508-Lz for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 06:19:42 -0400 Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster&pop3*clerew*man$ac$uk) by lon-mail-4.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.257) id 4700c993.a5f5.107 for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 1 Oct 2007 11:18:59 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l91AIvRp011018 for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2007 11:19:00 +0100 (BST) To: IMA Subject: Re: response code 550 VS 553 Re: [EAI] REVIEW: draft-ietf-eai-smtpext-08.txt References: <389619830.09132@cnnic.cn> <050901c8030c$ff1d99c0$236ff1da@yaojk> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 11:18:57 +0100 From: "Charles Lindsey" Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <050901c8030c$ff1d99c0$236ff1da@yaojk> User-Agent: Opera M2/8.01 (SunOS, build 1204) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 03:52:53 +0100, YAO Jiankang wrote: >> In Section 2.5. ALT-ADDRESS parameter usage and response codes: >> >> "When messages are rejected because they require UTF8SMTP, the >> response code "550" is used, defined in [RFC2821], meaning "mailbox >> unavailable". If enhanced mail system status codes [RFC3463] are" > After discussion with some editors, we suggest the following text: > > > when messages are rejected because the RCPT TO requires an ALT-ADDRES, > the response code 553 is used. When messages are rejected for other > reasons, such as MAIL FROM requiring an ALT-ADDRESS, the response code > 550 is used. But please add ", meaning XXXX" after each of "550" and "553", to save the poor reader the hassle of dashing or RFC2821 to check what the subtle difference is. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131     Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk      Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9      Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 01 08:31:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcKPq-0006y6-6n; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 08:30:26 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IcKPi-0006v2-D6 for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 08:30:18 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcKPi-0006sd-1J for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 08:30:18 -0400 Received: from smtp.cnnic.cn ([159.226.7.146] helo=cnnic.cn) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcKPb-0002Ki-77 for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 08:30:12 -0400 Received: (eyou send program); Mon, 01 Oct 2007 20:30:01 +0800 Message-ID: <391241801.13625@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO yaojk) (127.0.0.1) by 127.0.0.1 with SMTP; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 20:30:01 +0800 Message-ID: <083101c80426$c9550600$236ff1da@yaojk> From: "YAO Jiankang" To: "Frank Ellermann" References: <390637840.19423@cnnic.cn> <391240759.24581@cnnic.cn> Subject: Re: [EAI] EDITORIAL: smtpext-08 (1 .. 3) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 20:23:04 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) 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with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcKPb-0002Ki-77 for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 08:30:12 -0400 Received: (eyou send program); Mon, 01 Oct 2007 20:30:01 +0800 Message-ID: <391241801.13625@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO yaojk) (127.0.0.1) by 127.0.0.1 with SMTP; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 20:30:01 +0800 Message-ID: <083101c80426$c9550600$236ff1da@yaojk> From: "YAO Jiankang" To: "Frank Ellermann" References: <390637840.19423@cnnic.cn> <391240759.24581@cnnic.cn> Subject: Re: [EAI] EDITORIAL: smtpext-08 (1 .. 3) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 20:23:04 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 3a4bc66230659131057bb68ed51598f8 Cc: ima@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: 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1IcKPw-00071z-GO; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 08:30:32 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IcKPs-00071Q-FI for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 08:30:28 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcKPr-000717-Vf for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 08:30:27 -0400 Received: from smtp.cnnic.cn ([159.226.7.146] helo=cnnic.cn) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcKPl-0000ag-A3 for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 08:30:27 -0400 Received: (eyou send program); Mon, 01 Oct 2007 20:30:02 +0800 Message-ID: <391241802.13625@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO yaojk) (127.0.0.1) by 127.0.0.1 with SMTP; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 20:30:02 +0800 Message-ID: <083201c80426$c9898380$236ff1da@yaojk> From: "YAO Jiankang" To: "Alexey Melnikov" References: <390195929.04898@cnnic.cn> <391229926.27180@cnnic.cn> Subject: section 2.2 Re: [EAI] EDITORIAL: draft-ietf-eai-smtpext-08.txt Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 20:28:56 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Cc: ima@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2016648213==" Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org --===============2016648213== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQo+IA0KPiAtLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KPiBGcm9tOiAiQWxleGV5IE1l bG5pa292IiA8YWxleGV5Lm1lbG5pa292QGlzb2RlLmNvbT4NCj4gVG86IDxpbWFAaWV0Zi5vcmc+ DQo+IFNlbnQ6IFdlZG5lc2RheSwgU2VwdGVtYmVyIDE5LCAyMDA3IDU6NTYgUE0NCj4gU3ViamVj 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inline _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima --===============2016648213==-- Oct 2007 08:30:27 -0400 Received: (eyou send program); Mon, 01 Oct 2007 20:30:02 +0800 Message-ID: <391241802.13625@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO yaojk) (127.0.0.1) by 127.0.0.1 with SMTP; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 20:30:02 +0800 Message-ID: <083201c80426$c9898380$236ff1da@yaojk> From: "YAO Jiankang" To: "Alexey Melnikov" References: <390195929.04898@cnnic.cn> <391229926.27180@cnnic.cn> Subject: section 2.2 Re: [EAI] EDITORIAL: draft-ietf-eai-smtpext-08.txt Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 20:28:56 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Cc: ima@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 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Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IcRlb-00047k-Qf for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 16:21:23 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcRlb-000476-ES for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 16:21:23 -0400 Received: from ns1.qubic.net ([208.185.248.67]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcRlW-0004fB-Sw for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 16:21:19 -0400 Received: from subman.resistor.net ([10.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by ns1.qubic.net (8.14.2.Alpha0/8.14.2.Alpha0) with ESMTP id l91KKhSk021517 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 1 Oct 2007 13:20:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1191270061; x=1191356461; bh=uvQkJ4Kn7T1J+aabYfrl0UflEe0UbYT2DiK8 gQXwr+Y=; h=DomainKey-Signature:Message-Id:X-Mailer:Date:To:From: Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=wOI ixKDEuN/cpcTR472nZxzfpb2Fi7QA1QyTomIZD4oczZ2G8LQkHQuDD2EPHnJSGi6L+D DkH6TAQCv0dhcpjOHe4IPyZdtIxn/0X3yXRQu81UxwpUNbTXgbQA68EEg4uRecL90tK YORFayt/BgKuxtgjGbr2lBsu3VCi26YC1Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=mail; d=resistor.net; c=simple; q=dns; b=p2tJ9wRbfPKOOG3WeJ7Bov9OAzY32zW+dGFzz9bhk726eHzwhhtHXLWOaEctHy26v SMMeF75EbHfwfR7IXxDEd9MLZCwruPp1IzwW3ru9A5665UPLGbB/FQEWy3B6maDoctN yV7bADBCuL10HqqeSbnX4F4e/Wuju8M3iYHVWlU= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20071001114030.02ff18d0@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 13:12:43 -0700 To: YAO Jiankang From: SM Subject: Re: response code 550 VS 553 Re: [EAI] REVIEW: draft-ietf-eai-smtpext-08.txt In-Reply-To: <391120779.26784@cnnic.cn> References: <389619830.09132@cnnic.cn> <391120779.26784@cnnic.cn> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Cc: ima@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org At 19:52 29-09-2007, YAO Jiankang wrote: >After discussion with some editors, we suggest the following text: > > >when messages are rejected because the RCPT TO requires an >ALT-ADDRES, the response code 553 is used. When messages are >rejected for other reasons, such as MAIL FROM requiring an >ALT-ADDRESS, the response code 550 is used. I suggest using the 553 response code in the MAIL FROM or RCPT TO if the ALT-ADDRESS parameter is required. Messages are not rejected as there isn't a message yet. It's the mail transaction commands which are rejected. The suggested text is: When the ALT-ADDRESS parameter is required in the MAIL command or RCPT command and it is not specified, the SMTP Server MUST return a 553 (mailbox name not allowed) reply code as defined in [RFC2821]. If enhanced mail system status codes [RFC3463] are used, the status code should be "5.6.x" [SMTP-codes], meaning that "The alt-address is required but not specified". If the message is rejected after the DATA command is completed with . because it requires a UTF8SMTP downgrade, the 554 (Transaction failed) reply code as defined in [RFC2821] is returned. If enhanced mail system status codes [RFC3463] are used, the status code should be "5.6.z" [SMTP-codes], meaning that "UTF8SMTP downgrade failed". Regards, -sm _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 01 16:58:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcSLE-0003Pr-MQ; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 16:58:12 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IcSLD-0003OJ-Gt for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 16:58:11 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcSLD-0003O9-63 for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 16:58:11 -0400 Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcSLC-0005Zt-P1 for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 16:58:11 -0400 Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0862525970D; Mon, 1 Oct 2007 22:58:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04368-07; Mon, 1 Oct 2007 22:58:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.54] (162.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.162]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id A91B1259710; Mon, 1 Oct 2007 22:58:03 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <47015F5E.7090709@alvestrand.no> Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 22:58:06 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.13 (X11/20070824) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SM Subject: Re: response code 550 VS 553 Re: [EAI] REVIEW: draft-ietf-eai-smtpext-08.txt References: <389619830.09132@cnnic.cn> <391120779.26784@cnnic.cn> <6.2.5.6.2.20071001114030.02ff18d0@resistor.net> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20071001114030.02ff18d0@resistor.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Cc: ima@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org SM skrev: > At 19:52 29-09-2007, YAO Jiankang wrote: >> After discussion with some editors, we suggest the following text: >> >> >> when messages are rejected because the RCPT TO requires an >> ALT-ADDRES, the response code 553 is used. When messages are rejected >> for other reasons, such as MAIL FROM requiring an ALT-ADDRESS, the >> response code 550 is used. > > I suggest using the 553 response code in the MAIL FROM or RCPT TO if > the ALT-ADDRESS parameter is required. Messages are not rejected as > there isn't a message yet. It's the mail transaction commands which > are rejected. The recieving SMTP server can't reject on the MAIL FROM, because it doesn't know anything about the destination yet (presumably if a server announces UTF8SMTP support, it is able to deliver a message/global to SOME recipients). If the response is on RCPT TO, it seems highly confusing to a protocol machine (that doesn't read explanatory text) if the exchange is: -> MAIL FROM: <- 250 Go ahead, I will see what I can do -> RCPT TO: ALT-ADDR= <- 553 Mailbox name not allowed - MAIL FROM address didn't have ALT-ADDR Of course, one can reply <- 550 5.6.foo Can't send a message with this FROM address to this recipient - no ALT-ADDR where 5.6.foo is a new status code defined in this document, because we define the meaning of 5.6.foo. But we don't define the meaning of 553. Harald _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 01 18:05:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcTNu-0007aZ-Qj; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:05:02 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IcTNt-0007Zg-DJ for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:05:01 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcTNt-0007ZU-2L for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:05:01 -0400 Received: from ns1.qubic.net ([208.185.248.67]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcTNs-0006rh-FG for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:05:00 -0400 Received: from subman.resistor.net ([10.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by ns1.qubic.net (8.14.2.Alpha0/8.14.2.Alpha0) with ESMTP id l91M4RAI005906 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 1 Oct 2007 15:04:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1191276286; x=1191362686; bh=NSIgW3o5Xw/pXW7VmHcUiFnqMNMzyV0alZdz 2jVjLCY=; h=DomainKey-Signature:Message-Id:X-Mailer:Date:To:From: Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=sg1viR8JI44lkZBqJLJ1rqwNvawVO0Zg/AmR9 aMXe/gFGqcaNccwEmgbQgjRSsjUZSWVXI+bFYn1wJKOzsAZzg0I94xwgAXMlT5xV5Th h++p54erSaKpVCP5+C6mskkVg63PTz6vtIycb7zpkry3ZDVn0LpOAbV6A5m6K70HtKw = DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=mail; d=resistor.net; c=simple; q=dns; b=Q39iFz+72870DRYspWA+R+iWR+HW0jZfxLqvrtQEsO3qkpyJTm4lWIiMotTijvjiy 9WiKwLpiPWSPCGiePzTiUPjbyFQYkSlhgKYV6QhiXJD/zcnNmdID3CQ9DwW8WBtqKAd rUg48Dr0bfYVlJ6PeLlIVCkHqz3SOhzB6VEHa2s= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20071001134508.03006f08@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 14:52:28 -0700 To: ima@ietf.org From: SM Subject: Re: [EAI] Re: No issue # Re: ISSUE: smtext-08 security considerations In-Reply-To: <40BF919CEF6264216A2A157C@p3.JCK.COM> References: <46FBB5CD.8060305@alvestrand.no> <46FC003A.6020609@isode.com> <40BF919CEF6264216A2A157C@p3.JCK.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 Cc: Frank Ellermann X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org At 11:46 28-09-2007, John C Klensin wrote: >Perhaps: > > The optional ALT-ADDRESS parameter allows the use of > UTF8SMTP addresses and alternate addresses that are not > related to each other in any obvious algorithmic way. There > is no requirement that the alternate local-part be, e.g., a > translations or transliteration of the UTF8SMTP local part > nor that the alternate domain part be the IDNA ACE version > of the IDNA UTF-8 domain part. The flexibility this implies > appears to be necessary because a number of reasonable > configuration relationships cannot easily be reflected in > DNS or syntax relationships. However, like all other > in-transit transformations of message bodies (such as those > performed by gateways), the same flexibility provides a > potential vector for attacks. During the experiment > proposed in this set of documents, careful attention should > be paid to whether the risks associated with, e.g., use of > ALT-ADDRESS to divert messages to unexpected destinations > are significantly more problematic and email address > spoofing more generally. Once we know that the server will accept the=20 UTF8SMTP address and then downgrade to the=20 alternative address, we can use that behavior to=20 relay mail to third parties. e.g: mail.example.com server is listed as a MX for=20 example.com. Although the server supports=20 UTF8SMTP, mail for example.com will be downgraded=20 as that that domain doesn't support=20 UTF8SMTP. mail.example.com is not a MX for=20 example.org. The mail transaction is as follows: MAIL FROM: RCPT TO: alt-address=3D The message is downgraded and sent to=20 user2@example.org. mail.example.com can be used=20 to send mail to example.org addresses or any other address. >That is a lot more words than your proposal, for which I >apologize (perhaps someone else can do better), but covers the >same basic ground and points out that there is no less problem >with the local-part (e.g., is fred@example.com related to >Fr=C3=A9d=C3=A9ric@example.com or not?). It also avoids statements The difference between restricting the=20 alt-address to the local-part and the current=20 specifications is that the problem is contained=20 within the domain. If there is a significant=20 level of abuse, people will start putting in their own restrictions. Regards, -sm=20 _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 01 18:46:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcU1z-0000Jr-Up; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:46:27 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IcU1y-0000Iq-1v for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:46:26 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcU1x-0000EQ-OU for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:46:25 -0400 Received: from ns1.qubic.net ([208.185.248.67]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcU1m-0005eN-GY for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:46:20 -0400 Received: from subman.resistor.net ([10.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by ns1.qubic.net (8.14.2.Alpha0/8.14.2.Alpha0) with ESMTP id l91MjHR8022343 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 1 Oct 2007 15:45:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1191278736; x=1191365136; bh=wBlLHevdC6VHKyXiK4RpGL47E3xX20Uh5fKc SlBJASw=; h=DomainKey-Signature:Message-Id:X-Mailer:Date:To:From: Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=0yw A7uzxTJD4s548s54CdmqeaZ2a7pEs16o4XDNCFrOJBluPmQbckUJeJVmvdpHCPAF1Sm kfLnEU73s4FAEyLgym6oK8EM1KDLe9O6iXRKvemRJxaO3+z5/9OubVKx6I06OHF/Xel gqlOhB8t7b2TV8VLPjVCjVbZPEue2ZatVY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=mail; d=resistor.net; c=simple; q=dns; b=LvQ4ICyNPyfaJp6+x2XqRq4Kv0NBuP0sXfg+itiyPBbEK18w0ysKalk7kRfaxaZZ1 zC7ta/eHhKvTpggY1J4wq4+CNz4TaMNplinToK8UfacvhtKTLjgd3V+Rl6YUJeQDbs8 zPzaMaexdaFoqy406v66rAaedioBQL1Rgjjpxf0= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20071001145821.03034c88@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 15:44:58 -0700 To: Harald Alvestrand From: SM Subject: Re: response code 550 VS 553 Re: [EAI] REVIEW: draft-ietf-eai-smtpext-08.txt In-Reply-To: <47015F5E.7090709@alvestrand.no> References: <389619830.09132@cnnic.cn> <391120779.26784@cnnic.cn> <6.2.5.6.2.20071001114030.02ff18d0@resistor.net> <47015F5E.7090709@alvestrand.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Cc: ima@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org At 13:58 01-10-2007, Harald Alvestrand wrote: >The recieving SMTP server can't reject on the MAIL FROM, because it >doesn't know anything about the destination yet (presumably if a server >announces UTF8SMTP support, it is able to deliver a message/global to >SOME recipients). If the response is on RCPT TO, it seems highly >confusing to a protocol machine (that doesn't read explanatory text) if >the exchange is: > >-> MAIL FROM: ><- 250 Go ahead, I will see what I can do >-> RCPT TO: ALT-ADDR= ><- 553 Mailbox name not allowed - MAIL FROM address didn't have ALT-ADDR The example I was thinking of is: -> RCPT TO: <- 553 text The protocol machine does not read the explanatory text. It only has to deal with the reply code. In the above case, the ALT-ADDRESS is required for the RCPT. >Of course, one can reply > ><- 550 5.6.foo Can't send a message with this FROM address to this >recipient - no ALT-ADDR > >where 5.6.foo is a new status code defined in this document, because we >define the meaning of 5.6.foo. > >But we don't define the meaning of 553. The current draft provides the meaning of the 550 and 554. Regards, -sm _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 02 01:54:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcahH-0000uN-Aq; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 01:53:31 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IcahF-0000sN-PV for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 01:53:29 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcahF-0000sE-C3 for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 01:53:29 -0400 Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcahE-00009M-VQ for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 01:53:29 -0400 Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEC632596CD; Tue, 2 Oct 2007 07:53:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22308-03; Tue, 2 Oct 2007 07:53:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.54] (162.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.162]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1292A2596C0; Tue, 2 Oct 2007 07:53:18 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4701DCD1.8030809@alvestrand.no> Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 07:53:21 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.13 (X11/20070824) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SM Subject: Re: response code 550 VS 553 Re: [EAI] REVIEW: draft-ietf-eai-smtpext-08.txt References: <389619830.09132@cnnic.cn> <391120779.26784@cnnic.cn> <6.2.5.6.2.20071001114030.02ff18d0@resistor.net> <47015F5E.7090709@alvestrand.no> <6.2.5.6.2.20071001145821.03034c88@resistor.net> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20071001145821.03034c88@resistor.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Cc: ima@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org SM skrev: > At 13:58 01-10-2007, Harald Alvestrand wrote: >> The recieving SMTP server can't reject on the MAIL FROM, because it >> doesn't know anything about the destination yet (presumably if a server >> announces UTF8SMTP support, it is able to deliver a message/global to >> SOME recipients). If the response is on RCPT TO, it seems highly >> confusing to a protocol machine (that doesn't read explanatory text) if >> the exchange is: >> >> -> MAIL FROM: >> <- 250 Go ahead, I will see what I can do >> -> RCPT TO: ALT-ADDR= >> <- 553 Mailbox name not allowed - MAIL FROM address didn't have ALT-ADDR > > The example I was thinking of is: > > -> RCPT TO: > <- 553 text > > The protocol machine does not read the explanatory text. It only has > to deal with the reply code. In the above case, the ALT-ADDRESS is > required for the RCPT. That's consistent with the text suggested by Yao. > >> Of course, one can reply >> >> <- 550 5.6.foo Can't send a message with this FROM address to this >> recipient - no ALT-ADDR >> >> where 5.6.foo is a new status code defined in this document, because we >> define the meaning of 5.6.foo. >> >> But we don't define the meaning of 553. > > The current draft provides the meaning of the 550 and 554. > > Regards, > -sm > _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 02 02:18:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Icb5a-0002XM-PX; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 02:18:38 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Icb5Z-0002Vn-Kz for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 02:18:37 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Icb5Z-0002Tj-BR for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 02:18:37 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Icb5O-0006k0-43 for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 02:18:32 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Icb4Y-0000mW-9v for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 06:17:34 +0000 Received: from mail.st-michaelis.de ([217.86.170.58]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 06:17:34 +0000 Received: from nobody by mail.st-michaelis.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 06:17:34 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ima@ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 07:59:40 +0200 Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <390637840.19423@cnnic.cn> <391240759.24581@cnnic.cn> <391241801.13625@cnnic.cn> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: mail.st-michaelis.de X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Subject: [EAI] Re: EDITORIAL: smtpext-08 (1 .. 3) X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org YAO Jiankang wrote: =20 >> 2.3 : >> | That string MUST NOT contain any of the ASCII characters >> | (either graphics or controls) that are not permitted in=20 >> | "atext"; it is otherwise unrestricted. >>=20 >> s/; it is otherwise unrestricted// At some point in time >> (not now) there can be resrictions about say non-characters >> or private use characters. =20 > not very clear of the meaning. At the moment we allow any syntactically valid non-ASCII UTF-8. At some point in time (after the experiment) this hast to be restricted: - We need to get rid of C1 controls like NEL - We might exclude all or most private use characters=20 - Nobody needs non characters or a BOM in e-mail addresses - ... (e.g. RFC 3987 defines a sound Unicode subset) Frank _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 02 05:45:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IceJI-0003B4-4O; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 05:45:00 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IceJG-0003Ac-L6 for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 05:44:58 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IceJG-0003AU-BW for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 05:44:58 -0400 Received: from sniper.icu.ac.kr ([210.107.128.51]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IceJ9-0003gM-P9 for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 05:44:58 -0400 Received: (snipe 1447 invoked by uid 0); 2 Oct 2007 18:45:13 +0900 Received: from newcat@icu.ac.kr with Spamsniper 2.96.00 (Processed in 0.565444 secs); Received: from unknown (HELO ?210.107.250.114?) (Z???own@210.107.250.114) by unknown with SMTP; 2 Oct 2007 18:45:13 +0900 X-SNIPER-SENDERIP: 210.107.250.114 X-SNIPER-MAILFROM: newcat@icu.ac.kr X-SNIPER-RCPTTO: nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de, ima@ietf.org, yangwooko@gmail.com Message-ID: <47021321.4050106@icu.ac.kr> Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 18:45:05 +0900 From: Yangwoo Ko User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [EAI] Re: EDITORIAL: smtpext-08 (1 .. 3) References: <390637840.19423@cnnic.cn> <391240759.24581@cnnic.cn> <391241801.13625@cnnic.cn> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Cc: ima@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org I agree with the idea that some characters should be banned for many good reasons. The real issue is that there is no easy (or even no hard) way to realize this goal. Assuming that this hardness is very evident to all of us, I am not so sure whether Frank's suggestion worths inviting discussions on it. Frank Ellermann wrote: > YAO Jiankang wrote: > > >>> 2.3 : >>> | That string MUST NOT contain any of the ASCII characters >>> | (either graphics or controls) that are not permitted in >>> | "atext"; it is otherwise unrestricted. >>> >>> s/; it is otherwise unrestricted// At some point in time >>> (not now) there can be resrictions about say non-characters >>> or private use characters. >>> > > >> not very clear of the meaning. >> > > At the moment we allow any syntactically valid non-ASCII UTF-8. > At some point in time (after the experiment) this hast to be > restricted: > > - We need to get rid of C1 controls like NEL > - We might exclude all or most private use characters > - Nobody needs non characters or a BOM in e-mail addresses > - ... (e.g. RFC 3987 defines a sound Unicode subset) > > Frank > > > > _______________________________________________ > IMA mailing list > IMA@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima > > _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 02 06:08:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcefI-0002gC-9A; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 06:07:44 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IcefH-0002g7-6s for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 06:07:43 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcefG-0002fz-T3 for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 06:07:42 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcefG-0006cZ-Hk for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 06:07:42 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Iceez-0000Gx-6J for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 10:07:25 +0000 Received: from mail.st-michaelis.de ([217.86.170.58]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 10:07:25 +0000 Received: from nobody by mail.st-michaelis.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 10:07:25 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ima@ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 12:04:06 +0200 Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <390637840.19423@cnnic.cn><391240759.24581@cnnic.cn> <391241801.13625@cnnic.cn> <47021321.4050106@icu.ac.kr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: mail.st-michaelis.de X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Subject: [EAI] Re: EDITORIAL: smtpext-08 (1 .. 3) X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Yangwoo Ko wrote: =20 > I agree with the idea that some characters should be banned for many=20 > good reasons. The real issue is that there is no easy (or even no = hard)=20 > way to realize this goal. Assuming that this hardness is very evident = to=20 > all of us, I am not so sure whether Frank's suggestion worths inviting = > discussions on it. Just to be clear, my editorial proposal was to remove the note "it is otherwise unrestricted" in the I-D, nothing more elaborated for now. Frank _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 02 10:14:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IciVq-0002DT-0f; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 10:14:14 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IciVo-0002DL-16 for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 10:14:12 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IciVn-0002DC-N1 for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 10:14:11 -0400 Received: from rufus.isode.com ([62.3.217.251]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IciVn-0005a0-Dl for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 10:14:11 -0400 Received: from [172.16.1.99] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Tue, 2 Oct 2007 15:14:09 +0100 Message-ID: <470251FD.70401@isode.com> Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 15:13:17 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [EAI] Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-eai-dsn-04.txt (#1507) References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed Cc: ima@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: >P.S., typo, s/doesn't contains/doesn't contain/ in section 3. > > Fixed, thanks. _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 02 20:47:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcsOj-0006sB-1P; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 20:47:33 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IcsOi-0006pu-4a for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 20:47:32 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcsOh-0006nC-OY for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 20:47:31 -0400 Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.178]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcsOc-0002Ap-IF for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 20:47:31 -0400 Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id d32so14943102pye for ; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 17:47:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=JJv4lp+qYUCekDmpn/sESqbvdCjtWB3kNfWpjtBjyeE=; b=KImNhQ18CYs1YBtfLZach7+Vns3vY73ZNaxh3i6KKmbuEJAr38OO4+eVkUAuuM5RT3tB0Gd5YzWL8SviZZ3SKvdGPElobnAbtrS3CONKdf/33iIjR6fDleeKkc9dK0JSCVwuugKqPUtBowPQl+oOXlg/12d332hDsNTsyUSAvVY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=nHkVgndtEuISEPT1QsOP3lY1XAWd0odGFR1q0WG7AhNVltaSCv94z2UmJbbfs7NK2RPeMy47hdkGWXolwftofJOKm2jqHca2wmyEy7qzXNM2QdvMRl/Gq1GZnTedciqdl+x9LX3KHtaA7zYdvtJG/1ZVTD6JNMu33CyIM8B26cM= Received: by 10.35.110.13 with SMTP id n13mr1719930pym.1191372420910; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 17:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.8.15 with HTTP; Tue, 2 Oct 2007 17:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 09:47:00 +0900 From: "Yangwoo Ko" To: "Frank Ellermann" Subject: Re: [EAI] Re: EDITORIAL: smtpext-08 (1 .. 3) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <390637840.19423@cnnic.cn> <391240759.24581@cnnic.cn> <391241801.13625@cnnic.cn> <47021321.4050106@icu.ac.kr> X-Google-Sender-Auth: df178a787a695adb X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Cc: ima@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1434867006==" Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org --===============1434867006== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_27910_14637159.1191372420904" ------=_Part_27910_14637159.1191372420904 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline > s/; it is otherwise unrestricted// Oops. I should have better eyes. I thought that explanations afterwards was suggested as a replacement. 2007/10/2, Frank Ellermann : > > > Yangwoo Ko wrote: > > > I agree with the idea that some characters should be banned for many > > good reasons. The real issue is that there is no easy (or even no hard) > > way to realize this goal. Assuming that this hardness is very evident to > > all of us, I am not so sure whether Frank's suggestion worths inviting > > discussions on it. > > Just to be clear, my editorial proposal was to remove the note "it is > otherwise unrestricted" in the I-D, nothing more elaborated for now. > > Frank > > > > _______________________________________________ > IMA mailing list > IMA@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima > ------=_Part_27910_14637159.1191372420904 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
> s/; it is otherwise unrestricted//  

Oops. I should have better eyes. I thought that explanations afterwards was suggested as a replacement.

2007/10/2, Frank Ellermann <nobody@xyzzy.claranet.de>:


Yangwoo Ko wrote:

> I agree with the idea that some characters should be banned for many
> good reasons. The real issue is that there is no easy (or even no hard)
> way to realize this goal. Assuming that this hardness is very evident to
> all of us, I am not so sure whether Frank's suggestion worths inviting
> discussions on it.

Just to be clear, my editorial proposal was to remove the note "it is
otherwise unrestricted" in the I-D, nothing more elaborated for now.

Frank



_______________________________________________
IMA mailing list
IMA@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima

------=_Part_27910_14637159.1191372420904-- --===============1434867006== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima --===============1434867006==-- From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 02 23:11:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Icudl-0005O5-FJ; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 23:11:13 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Icudk-0005NH-KV for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 23:11:12 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Icudk-00053J-72 for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 23:11:12 -0400 Received: from ns5.lsb.org ([211.196.150.53] helo=postel5.postel.co.kr) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcudW-0000mM-TP for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 23:10:59 -0400 Received: from postel5.postel.co.kr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by postel5.postel.co.kr (8.13.0.PreAlpha4/8.13.0.PreAlpha4) with ESMTP id l933AnUt020953; Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:10:49 +0900 Received: (from lsb@localhost) by postel5.postel.co.kr (8.13.0.PreAlpha4/8.13.0.PreAlpha4/Submit) id l933Amer020951; Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:10:48 +0900 Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:10:48 +0900 From: Soobok Lee To: Yangwoo Ko Subject: Re: [EAI] Re: EDITORIAL: smtpext-08 (1 .. 3) Message-ID: <20071003031048.GG1984@postel5.postel.co.kr> References: <390637840.19423@cnnic.cn> <391240759.24581@cnnic.cn> <391241801.13625@cnnic.cn> <47021321.4050106@icu.ac.kr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47021321.4050106@icu.ac.kr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Cc: Frank Ellermann , ima@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 06:45:05PM +0900, Yangwoo Ko wrote: > > Frank Ellermann wrote: > >YAO Jiankang wrote: > > > > > >>>2.3 : > >>>| That string MUST NOT contain any of the ASCII characters > >>>| (either graphics or controls) that are not permitted in > >>>| "atext"; it is otherwise unrestricted. > >>> > >>>s/; it is otherwise unrestricted// At some point in time > >>>(not now) there can be resrictions about say non-characters > >>>or private use characters. > >>> Just for a editorial, please see the following excerpt interleaved opinion of mine: 1. Change the definition of "Atom" to permit either the definition above or a UTF-8 string. my opinion> "permit a UTF-8 string" is too loose, rather how about using "a non-ASCII UTF8 string"? 2. That string MUST NOT contain any of the ASCII characters (either graphics or controls) that are not permitted in "atext"; it is otherwise unrestricted. my poninion> If we use "non-ASCII" adjective like above, this statement is not necessary, since RFC821/2811 already prohibit those ASCII puntuations etc and this draft does not introduce ASCII characters in the grammer. See below. uLet-dig = Let-dig / UTF8-xtra-char ; Let-dig is defined in RFC 2821, section 4.1.3 UTF8-xtra-char = UTF8-2 / UTF8-3 / UTF8-4 ; UTF8-2, UTF8-3 and UTF8-4 are defined in RFC 3629 my opinion> This grammer *clearly and well* states that only non-ASCII UTF8 string (of sequence length >= 2) is permitted newly in this specification. We don't have to worry about permission of full UTF8 strings which contains full 7-bit ASCII subset. Soobok _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 03 03:00:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcyDl-00084K-Bp; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 03:00:37 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IcyDj-0007sU-Mk for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 03:00:35 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcyDi-0007N0-Io for ima@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 03:00:34 -0400 Received: from ns5.lsb.org ([211.196.150.53] helo=postel5.postel.co.kr) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcyDZ-00069G-B7 for ima@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 03:00:25 -0400 Received: from postel5.postel.co.kr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by postel5.postel.co.kr (8.13.0.PreAlpha4/8.13.0.PreAlpha4) with ESMTP id l93700Ut010320; Wed, 3 Oct 2007 16:00:00 +0900 Received: (from lsb@localhost) by postel5.postel.co.kr (8.13.0.PreAlpha4/8.13.0.PreAlpha4/Submit) id l936xvN9010318; Wed, 3 Oct 2007 15:59:57 +0900 Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 15:59:57 +0900 From: Soobok Lee To: Yangwoo Ko Message-ID: <20071003065957.GH1984@postel5.postel.co.kr> References: <390637840.19423@cnnic.cn> <391240759.24581@cnnic.cn> <391241801.13625@cnnic.cn> <47021321.4050106@icu.ac.kr> <20071003031048.GG1984@postel5.postel.co.kr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20071003031048.GG1984@postel5.postel.co.kr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Cc: Frank Ellermann , ima@ietf.org Subject: [EAI] EDITORIAL : smtpext / utf8-extr-char X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 12:10:48PM +0900, Soobok Lee wrote: > > uLet-dig = Let-dig / UTF8-xtra-char > ; Let-dig is defined in RFC 2821, section 4.1.3 > UTF8-xtra-char = UTF8-2 / UTF8-3 / UTF8-4 > ; UTF8-2, UTF8-3 and UTF8-4 are defined in RFC 3629 UTF8-xtra-char (UTF8 EXTRA??? CHARACTER??? ) is not an intuitively good term to carry the meaning of UTF8 8th-bit-high *byte sequences* which encode non-ASCII Unicode character code points. I suggest: s/UTF8-xtra-char/non-ASCII-UTF8/; THis will make the syntax rules look clear. I googled for "utf8-xtra-char", but I can't find any significant reason to follow that terminology other than "Usenet Format"-related draft by Charles Lindsey. ( I'm sorry to Charles ;-) ) Soobok _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 03 09:24:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id4Bp-00065o-1W; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 09:23:01 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Id4Bn-000654-4W for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 09:22:59 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id4Bm-00064v-NT for ima@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 09:22:58 -0400 Received: from ns.jck.com ([209.187.148.211] helo=bs.jck.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id4Bg-0004pW-Ag for ima@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 09:22:58 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=p3.JCK.COM) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Id4BV-00007X-HD; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 09:22:41 -0400 Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 09:22:40 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: SM , ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] Re: No issue # Re: ISSUE: smtext-08 security considerations Message-ID: <5923C849FBE01B86DACC6BC0@p3.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20071001134508.03006f08@resistor.net> References: <46FBB5CD.8060305@alvestrand.no> <46FC003A.6020609@isode.com> <40BF919CEF6264216A2A157C@p3.JCK.COM> <6.2.5.6.2.20071001134508.03006f08@resistor.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 00e94c813bef7832af255170dca19e36 Cc: Frank Ellermann X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org --On Monday, 01 October, 2007 14:52 -0700 SM wrote: >> That is a lot more words than your proposal, for which I >> apologize (perhaps someone else can do better), but covers = the >> same basic ground and points out that there is no less = problem >> with the local-part (e.g., is fred@example.com related to >> Fr=C3=83=C2=A9d=C3=83=C2=A9ric@example.com or not?). It = also avoids >> statements >=20 > The difference between restricting the alt-address to the > local-part and the current specifications is that the problem > is contained within the domain. If there is a significant > level of abuse, people will start putting in their own > restrictions. This works fine as long as the user controls the domain, and domain records, of the relevant domain server. That may not always be the case. Example (somewhat more realistic than using example.whatever but should not appear in the document); Suppose Jos=C3=A9 receives his mail at hooya.com. Suppose that Hoo!ya has announced that they will turn on support for i18email any day now and encourages people to sign up for utf8smtp aliases so that such mail can be delivered to their standard mailboxes once the facility is, in fact, turned on. However, they own all of their MXs, the DNS records are not under = Jos=C3=A9's control, and they announce that they have no intention of supporting downgrading. Now, this preannouncement-and-get-signups plan is mildly dumb. Technically, one might suggest that only a yahoo (sic) would come up with it. But it has several advantages as a marketing ploy. So, Jos=C3=A9 follows instructions and now has two addresses, jose@hooya.com and the new jos=C3=A9@hooya.com. Until the transition is actually made, i18n mail sent to _either_ address will bounce, but he doesn't know when the transition will occur. Being clever, but wanting to get people used to using the jos=C3=A9@hooya.com address, he signs up for a forwarding/downgrading account with downgrades-are-us.co.mx. Now he tells people to use the address field (and uses it as the backward-pointing address on mail he sends out if Hoo!ya will let him): jos=C3=A9@hooya.com; = ALT-ADDRESS=3D"jose@downgrades-are-us.mx" The domains are different. The local parts are different. The mail will eventually end up in the "jose@hooya.com" mailbox, but downgraded, a service which hooya.com and its MXs are unwilling to provide. FWIW, I consider scenarios like this one to be likely, especially if one or more of the large public mail providers implement utf8smtp slowly and in a half-hearted way. If that occurs, strong proof of concept for email i18n -- strong enough to persuade them to deploy high-quality implementations -- is likely to _require_ that sites like the hypothetical "downgrades-are-us.mx" to come into being. It might even be a business opportunity for a fee for service activity. If I'm right, excluding the possibility in the name of security, especially given how easily email addresses are spoofed and diverted in other ways, come pretty close to shooting ourselves in the foot. john _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 03 11:56:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id6Zi-0008I5-5M; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 11:55:50 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Id6Zg-0008Dm-Fi for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 11:55:48 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id6Zg-0007ea-35 for ima@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 11:55:48 -0400 Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net ([193.111.201.125]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id6ZP-0006MB-4R for ima@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 11:55:31 -0400 Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster&pop3^clerew^man^ac^uk) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.257) id 4703bb70.13771.91 for ima@ietf.org; Wed, 3 Oct 2007 16:55:28 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l93FtQ8S022457 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2007 16:55:27 +0100 (BST) To: IMA Subject: Re: [EAI] EDITORIAL : smtpext / utf8-extr-char References: <390637840.19423@cnnic.cn> <391240759.24581@cnnic.cn> <391241801.13625@cnnic.cn> <47021321.4050106@icu.ac.kr> <20071003031048.GG1984@postel5.postel.co.kr> <20071003065957.GH1984@postel5.postel.co.kr> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 16:55:26 +0100 From: "Charles Lindsey" Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20071003065957.GH1984@postel5.postel.co.kr> User-Agent: Opera M2/8.01 (SunOS, build 1204) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 07:59:57 +0100, Soobok Lee wrote: > On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 12:10:48PM +0900, Soobok Lee wrote: > I suggest: s/UTF8-xtra-char/non-ASCII-UTF8/; > > THis will make the syntax rules look clear. Bear in mind that this is a name ob an object in the ABNF, which needs to be chosen to make the ABNF clear. > > I googled for "utf8-xtra-char", but I can't find any significant reason > to > follow that terminology other than "Usenet Format"-related draft by > Charles Lindsey. > ( I'm sorry to Charles ;-) ) I have no great concern to retain , but I am not sure that is the best alternative (though no other suggestion springs to mind). But, if it is changed, be sure to change the occurrences in all of the drafts, because it has been quite widely used. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131     Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk      Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9      Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 03 12:02:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id6fa-0004HX-8Q; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 12:01:54 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Id6fZ-0004GF-6V for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 12:01:53 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id6fY-00044R-Rl for ima@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 12:01:52 -0400 Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net ([193.111.201.125]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id6fJ-0006YZ-2K for ima@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 12:01:37 -0400 Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster*pop3$clerew*man$ac*uk) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.257) id 4703bcdd.13771.a1 for ima@ietf.org; Wed, 3 Oct 2007 17:01:33 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l93G1X4S022824 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2007 17:01:34 +0100 (BST) To: IMA Subject: Re: [EAI] Re: EDITORIAL: smtpext-08 (1 .. 3) References: <390637840.19423@cnnic.cn> <391240759.24581@cnnic.cn> <391241801.13625@cnnic.cn> <47021321.4050106@icu.ac.kr> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 17:01:33 +0100 From: "Charles Lindsey" Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <47021321.4050106@icu.ac.kr> User-Agent: Opera M2/8.01 (SunOS, build 1204) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 10:45:05 +0100, Yangwoo Ko wrote: > I agree with the idea that some characters should be banned for many > good reasons. The real issue is that there is no easy (or even no hard) > way to realize this goal. Assuming that this hardness is very evident to > all of us, I am not so sure whether Frank's suggestion worths inviting > discussions on it. Way back, when the USEFOR WG was considering using UTF-8 for s, we had some restrictions on the Unicode allowed (e.g. no punctuation characters - Unicode has quite an elaborate classification system which can be used to describe such restrictions). I suspect that any such restriction in this case would be of the form of restricting UTF-8-atoms. I can dig out the resrictions USEFOR proposed if anyone is interested (but not just now, as I am away for the next week). Or you can probably find them in the earlier drafts on the Usefor web site. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131     Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk      Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9      Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 03 18:04:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IdCJt-00069K-41; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 18:03:53 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IdBn8-0000dx-AO for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 17:30:02 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IdBn7-0000VD-3y for ima@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 17:30:01 -0400 Received: from ns1.qubic.net ([208.185.248.67]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IdBmz-0007gH-Kq for ima@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 17:29:54 -0400 Received: from subman.resistor.net ([10.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by ns1.qubic.net (8.14.2.Alpha0/8.14.2.Alpha0) with ESMTP id l93LTOql008897 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 3 Oct 2007 14:29:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1191446981; x=1191533381; bh=8cDdsP2+uZrg4gZP9xZMI3i86KYjbjzW+hds NRnD938=; h=DomainKey-Signature:Message-Id:X-Mailer:Date:To:From: Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Mime-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc; b=sD88W85vdtvcDgNn8mZ+KFHj72fwjyBgCV 3yUWtBiuip/TxKOrNBeN3zZywt7ZN86iVUDq3dtaqW33d491l0wAPHql9NtZtyfOrg+ 6hMYMcHEQexT5+KNY/bk0z3duOrC/pDKf1xF4nvtId/HrV5BoO3KiFJw+J7Bb5RfReB IJg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=mail; d=resistor.net; c=simple; q=dns; b=kjTbFrEViFaiZsJi2gLuUpcsZ9aFn41DnK/DViU0Ubx9Fj7vWIa354cgf0jh7c5Jy PhXVtF8Linhp+SwZsvXUJYEa83zE0L5PTqIIhB5xuHpnz/hnb3miMFoD6eczm6o9UMK B8eWtGMwCQnU0wd6FQTJ2Ldazg7C7f14RD1Mrzg= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20071003133641.02f7c498@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 14:27:13 -0700 To: John C Klensin , ima@ietf.org From: SM Subject: Re: [EAI] Re: No issue # Re: ISSUE: smtext-08 security considerations In-Reply-To: <5923C849FBE01B86DACC6BC0@p3.JCK.COM> References: <46FBB5CD.8060305@alvestrand.no> <46FC003A.6020609@isode.com> <40BF919CEF6264216A2A157C@p3.JCK.COM> <6.2.5.6.2.20071001134508.03006f08@resistor.net> <5923C849FBE01B86DACC6BC0@p3.JCK.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Cc: X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Hi John, At 06:22 03-10-2007, John C Klensin wrote: >Suppose Jos=C3=A9 receives his mail at hooya.com. Suppose that >Hoo!ya has announced that they will turn on support for i18email >any day now and encourages people to sign up for utf8smtp >aliases so that such mail can be delivered to their standard >mailboxes once the facility is, in fact, turned on. However, >they own all of their MXs, the DNS records are not under Jos=C3=A9's >control, and they announce that they have no intention of >supporting downgrading. Now, this >preannouncement-and-get-signups plan is mildly dumb. >Technically, one might suggest that only a yahoo (sic) would >come up with it. But it has several advantages as a marketing >ploy. I see the rationale for this feature. >The domains are different. The local parts are different. The >mail will eventually end up in the "jose@hooya.com" mailbox, but >downgraded, a service which hooya.com and its MXs are unwilling >to provide. The idea of not having a tie between the two=20 addresses has merit as it helps to in cases as the one you explained above. >FWIW, I consider scenarios like this one to be likely, >especially if one or more of the large public mail providers >implement utf8smtp slowly and in a half-hearted way. If that Agreed. >occurs, strong proof of concept for email i18n -- strong enough >to persuade them to deploy high-quality implementations -- is >likely to _require_ that sites like the hypothetical >"downgrades-are-us.mx" to come into being. It might even be a >business opportunity for a fee for service activity. Definitely. :-) >If I'm right, excluding the possibility in the name of security, >especially given how easily email addresses are spoofed and >diverted in other ways, come pretty close to shooting ourselves >in the foot. I was looking at the problem from the another=20 angle which includes that possibility. I think=20 that the text you proposed would be a useful addition to the draft. Regards, -sm=20 _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 03 18:53:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IdD5K-0000wb-WE; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 18:52:55 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IdD5J-0000gA-Fs for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 18:52:53 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IdD5J-0000fb-4A for ima@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 18:52:53 -0400 Received: from ns.jck.com ([209.187.148.211] helo=bs.jck.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IdD5I-0001UO-Gg for ima@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 18:52:53 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=p3.JCK.COM) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1IdD5D-000GpW-Qi; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 18:52:48 -0400 Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 18:52:47 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: SM , ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] Re: No issue # Re: ISSUE: smtext-08 security considerations Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20071003133641.02f7c498@resistor.net> References: <46FBB5CD.8060305@alvestrand.no> <46FC003A.6020609@isode.com> <40BF919CEF6264216A2A157C@p3.JCK.COM> <6.2.5.6.2.20071001134508.03006f08@resistor.net> <5923C849FBE01B86DACC6BC0@p3.JCK.COM> <6.2.5.6.2.20071003133641.02f7c498@resistor.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da Cc: X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org --On Wednesday, 03 October, 2007 14:27 -0700 SM wrote: > Hi John, > At 06:22 03-10-2007, John C Klensin wrote: >> Suppose Jos=C3=83=C2=A9 receives his mail at hooya.com. = Suppose that >> Hoo!ya has announced that they will turn on support for >> i18email any day now and encourages people to sign up for >... > I see the rationale for this feature. >=20 >> The domains are different. The local parts are different. >> The mail will eventually end up in the "jose@hooya.com" >> mailbox, but downgraded, a service which hooya.com and its >> MXs are unwilling to provide. >=20 > The idea of not having a tie between the two addresses has > merit as it helps to in cases as the one you explained above. >... Now that I've convinced SM, I note that the particular example I gave would not work with the present versions of smtpext and downgrade, since it requires either that: * the message be picked up by an MX intermediary that is UTF8SMTP-capable and that has enough external knowledge to relay the message to "downgrades-are-us.mx" rather than rejecting (or downgrading itself) when it discovers that the better-preference MX hosts don't yet support the extension. * we permit non-ASCII addresses in the ALT-ADDRESS field. The latter is not possible with the current spec. The former is possible, but requires external knowledge (e.g., a separate table or database) and does not depend on ALT-ADDRESS at all. =20 The combination suggests an entirely different mechanism for specifying an alternate address or mail routing, but I think it is far too late to pursue it for the current round of documents. If we discover, in practice and as experiments are performed, that downgrading is not sufficiently supported and is necessary to make things work smoothly, we might want to come back to = this. I do believe that there are examples that are somewhat similar to this that require different domains than the domain in the primary address or domains that are not under the direct control of the MX host. One would arise with an example discussed very early in this process. =20 Suppose a user speaks and reads only, say, Klingon. She might then have klingon-address@mailserver.klingon-tld=20 ALT-ADDRESS=3D"some-alias@klingon-translation-service.com" The system at the latter address would accept a downgraded message, translate it (content as well as headers) to Klingon, and then forward the result to an appropriate address using information in local tables. john _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Sun Oct 07 08:38:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IeVMx-0004Nr-NR; Sun, 07 Oct 2007 08:36:27 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IeVMw-0004LF-SY for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 07 Oct 2007 08:36:26 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IeVMw-0004L5-IJ for ima@ietf.org; Sun, 07 Oct 2007 08:36:26 -0400 Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IeVMw-0008Lu-6K for ima@ietf.org; Sun, 07 Oct 2007 08:36:26 -0400 Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3E97259700 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2007 14:36:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17003-02 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2007 14:36:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.54] (162.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.162]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 422042596F8 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2007 14:36:17 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4708D2C9.2080909@alvestrand.no> Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 14:36:25 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.13 (X11/20070824) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: EAI WG X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Subject: [EAI] #1507 NO-WS-CTL: Proposed resolution (direction) X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Dealing with something relatively non-controversial: I believe the WG thinks it's reasonable for UTF8HDR and DSN to specify that "utf8-text" builds on the definitions in RFC 2822, in such a way that if 2822 is updated to remove the NO-WS-CTL characters form the specification, no textual change will need to be made in the EAI specifications. If nobody objects to this resolution, I hope that Alexey, Frank and the WG can work out appropriate text. Harald _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 08 06:16:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IepeJ-0007Xg-CI; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 06:15:43 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IepeI-0007XV-7H for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 06:15:42 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IepeH-0007XJ-TC for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 06:15:41 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IepeH-0000p7-IT for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 06:15:41 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Iepdz-0001BP-Pa for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 10:15:23 +0000 Received: from mail.st-michaelis.de ([217.86.170.58]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 10:15:23 +0000 Received: from nobody by mail.st-michaelis.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 10:15:23 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ima@ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 12:12:49 +0200 Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <390637840.19423@cnnic.cn> <391240759.24581@cnnic.cn><391241801.13625@cnnic.cn> <47021321.4050106@icu.ac.kr><20071003031048.GG1984@postel5.postel.co.kr> <20071003065957.GH1984@postel5.postel.co.kr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: mail.st-michaelis.de X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Subject: [EAI] Re: EDITORIAL : smtpext / utf8-extr-char X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Soobok Lee wrote: =20 > I suggest: s/UTF8-xtra-char/non-ASCII-UTF8/; =20 > THis will make the syntax rules look clear. Let's say UTF8-NON-ASCII as in RFC 3977 (NNTP). Frank _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 08 08:42:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ieruv-0004E7-Ps; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 08:41:01 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Ierut-000497-UH for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 08:40:59 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ierut-000433-JK for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 08:40:59 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ieruq-00050R-12 for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 08:40:56 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Ierue-0005eh-K5 for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 12:40:44 +0000 Received: from mail.st-michaelis.de ([217.86.170.58]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 12:40:44 +0000 Received: from nobody by mail.st-michaelis.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 08 Oct 2007 12:40:44 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ima@ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 14:32:18 +0200 Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <4708D2C9.2080909@alvestrand.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: mail.st-michaelis.de X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Subject: [EAI] Re: #1507 NO-WS-CTL: Proposed resolution (direction) X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Harald Alvestrand wrote: =20 > I believe the WG thinks it's reasonable for UTF8HDR and DSN to specify > that "utf8-text" builds on the definitions in RFC 2822, in such a way > that if 2822 is updated to remove the NO-WS-CTL characters form the > specification, no textual change will need to be made in the EAI > specifications. I'm not sure about that approach, 2822upd almost certainly will be a DS, that seriously limits its "innovations" wrt NO-WS-CTL. The last draft still allows NO-WS-CTL in (RHS characters of addresses and even Message-IDs). Actually #1507 consists of two parts: 1 - who needs ? I think it's bogus, the original 2822upd is bad enough. Without the UTF8HDR I-D doesn't need any in ABNF. =20 2 - Without in the UTF8HDR I-D the DSN I-D is free to use whatever it needs, e.g. utf8-text =3D WSP / VCHAR / UTF8-NON-ASCII Plan B could be "whatever 2822upd or UTF8HDR say, the DSN I-D can limit itself to WSP / VCHAR / UTF8-NON-ASCII". Actually it could do better when I-D.klensin-net-utf8 made it, but that's a race condition at the moment. Unrelated: In I-D.klensin-unicode-escapes the perl notation ended up as "NOT RECOMMENDED", how about switching to its 5.1 notation ? Frank =20 _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 11 14:58:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig3Ei-0004Jk-Ai; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:58:20 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig3Eh-0004Ie-9q for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:58:19 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig3Eg-0003yA-UQ for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:58:18 -0400 Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net ([193.111.201.127]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig3ER-00041R-3Z for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:58:03 -0400 Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster$pop3^clerew#man*ac^uk) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.257) id 470e7239.46b9.50 for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:58:01 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l9BIvuNC001779 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:57:58 +0100 (BST) To: IMA Subject: Re: [EAI] Re: EDITORIAL : smtpext / utf8-extr-char References: <390637840.19423@cnnic.cn> <391240759.24581@cnnic.cn> <391241801.13625@cnnic.cn> <47021321.4050106@icu.ac.kr> <20071003031048.GG1984@postel5.postel.co.kr> <20071003065957.GH1984@postel5.postel.co.kr> Message-ID: From: "Charles Lindsey" Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:57:55 +0100 In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera M2/8.01 (SunOS, build 1204) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 11:12:49 +0100, Frank Ellermann wrote: > Soobok Lee wrote: > >> I suggest: s/UTF8-xtra-char/non-ASCII-UTF8/; > >> THis will make the syntax rules look clear. > > Let's say UTF8-NON-ASCII as in RFC 3977 (NNTP). +1 -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131     Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk      Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9      Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 11 15:12:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig3SZ-0007xQ-IZ; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 15:12:39 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig3SY-0007x2-BI for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 15:12:38 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig3SX-0007c9-Pr for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 15:12:38 -0400 Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net ([193.111.201.127]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig3SO-0005lO-07 for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 15:12:28 -0400 Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster*pop3#clerew#man$ac&uk) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.257) id 470e7578.4b10.4b for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 20:11:53 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l9BJBij9002614 for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 20:11:45 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:49:55 +0100 From: "Charles Lindsey" To: "Frank Ellermann" Subject: Re: [EAI] Re: #1507 NO-WS-CTL: Proposed resolution (direction) References: <4708D2C9.2080909@alvestrand.no> Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera M2/8.01 (SunOS, build 1204) Resent-To: IMA Resent-From: "Charles Lindsey" Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 20:11:44 +0100 Resent-Message-ID: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 13:32:18 +0100, Frank Ellermann wrote: > 1 - who needs ? I think it's bogus, the original > 2822upd is bad enough. Without > the UTF8HDR I-D doesn't need any in ABNF. So you want to say "quoting, as in s, is only to be used on ASCII characters, since it is never of benefit in s". The reason it is there is only to avoid treading on 2822's toes too hard, but one could argue that removing it makes yat-another-arbitrary-an-ugly-exception. I share your dislike of , but in some (few) contexts it is needed. But is is also true that all escape mechanisms introduced into character strings ultimately lead to more complicated code, and the greater likelihood of obscure bugs. 'Twas ever thus :-( . This is just comment. I am not arguing for or against any change. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131     Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk      Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9      Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 15 07:13:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhNrx-0002tC-01; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 07:12:21 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IhNrv-0002t4-QZ for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 07:12:19 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhNrv-0002sf-2R for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 07:12:19 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhNri-0004KC-Pw for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 07:12:14 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IhNl3-0008MB-6j for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 11:05:13 +0000 Received: from mail.st-michaelis.de ([217.86.170.58]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 11:05:13 +0000 Received: from nobody by mail.st-michaelis.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 11:05:13 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ima@ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 12:57:35 +0200 Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <4708D2C9.2080909@alvestrand.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: mail.st-michaelis.de X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Subject: [EAI] Re: #1507 NO-WS-CTL: Proposed resolution (direction) X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Charles Lindsey wrote: =20 > So you want to say "quoting, as in s, is only to be > used on ASCII characters, since it is never of benefit in=20 > s". Yes. I vaguely recall that John hoped to get rid of quoted-pairs two or three years ago wrt EAI when we talked about what's now=20 listed as RFC 3696 erratum. > The reason it is there is only to avoid treading on 2822's toes > too hard Now's a good time to tread on its toes, before it's a DS... ;-) Seriously, 2822bis isn't affected by what EAI does wrt unnecessary quoted-UTF8-pairs. It would be a pain for users, implementors, and likely 3696bis. =20 > one could argue that removing it makes=20 > yat-another-arbitrary-an-ugly-exception. Not arbitrary, well considered. It took us months to deal with this "feature" in USEFOR, looking in the approved I-D we apparently settled on "don't talk about it" for mail-complaints-to parameters. Not exactly honest... :-| Unicode is bad^Winteresting enough, it doesn't need this additional obs-cenity to make it worse. (I had an overdose of TUS 5.0 ch. 5.8 "newline guidelines" yesterday. We should make sure that the blame for it falls on TUS and not anything including EAI in the IETF.) Frank _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 15 11:47:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhS9j-0000sg-53; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 11:46:59 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IhS9g-0000sN-AL for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 11:46:56 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhS9f-0000oJ-C6 for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 11:46:55 -0400 Received: from ns5.lsb.org ([211.196.150.53] helo=postel5.postel.co.kr) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhS9S-0006SI-IZ for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 11:46:52 -0400 Received: from postel5.postel.co.kr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by postel5.postel.co.kr (8.13.0.PreAlpha4/8.13.0.PreAlpha4) with ESMTP id l9FFkAUt030699; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 00:46:10 +0900 Received: (from lsb@localhost) by postel5.postel.co.kr (8.13.0.PreAlpha4/8.13.0.PreAlpha4/Submit) id l9FFk7qk030697; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 00:46:07 +0900 Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 00:46:07 +0900 From: Soobok Lee To: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: [EAI] Re: EDITORIAL : smtpext / utf8-extr-char Message-ID: <20071015154607.GA29923@postel5.postel.co.kr> References: <390637840.19423@cnnic.cn> <20071003065957.GH1984@postel5.postel.co.kr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: ima@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 12:12:49PM +0200, Frank Ellermann wrote: > Soobok Lee wrote: > > > I suggest: s/UTF8-xtra-char/non-ASCII-UTF8/; > > > THis will make the syntax rules look clear. > > Let's say UTF8-NON-ASCII as in RFC 3977 (NNTP). +1. This seems better & clearer than "non-ascii-UTF", since "UTF8" comes first. UTF8-non-ascii = UTF8-2 / UTF8-3 / UTF8-4 UTF8-2 = %xC2-DF UTF8-tail UTF8-3 = %xE0 %xA0-BF UTF8-tail / %xE1-EC 2UTF8-tail / %xED %x80-9F UTF8-tail / %xEE-EF 2UTF8-tail UTF8-4 = %xF0 %x90-BF 2UTF8-tail / %xF1-F3 3UTF8-tail / %xF4 %x80-8F 2UTF8-tail UTF8-tail = %x80-BF Soobok _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 15 17:59:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhXxg-0001fw-OY; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:58:56 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IhXxf-0001fl-5F for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:58:55 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhXxe-0001f1-6h for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:58:54 -0400 Received: from mail120.messagelabs.com ([216.82.250.83]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhXxd-0004Dj-OV for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:58:54 -0400 X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: tony@att.com X-Msg-Ref: server-7.tower-120.messagelabs.com!1192485531!27834528!1 X-StarScan-Version: 5.5.12.14.2; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [144.160.20.53] Received: (qmail 14068 invoked from network); 15 Oct 2007 21:58:52 -0000 Received: from sbcsmtp6.sbc.com (HELO mlph073.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com) (144.160.20.53) by server-7.tower-120.messagelabs.com with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 15 Oct 2007 21:58:52 -0000 Received: from enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mlph073.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l9FLwp5E024859 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:58:51 -0400 Received: from mlph070.sfdc.sbc.com (mlph070.sfdc.sbc.com [144.155.224.139]) by mlph073.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l9FLwlSF024836 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:58:47 -0400 Received: from sfdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mlph070.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l9FLwlb9017695 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:58:47 -0400 Received: from maillennium.att.com (mailgw1.maillennium.att.com [135.25.114.99]) by mlph070.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l9FLwiD6017682 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:58:44 -0400 Received: from [135.91.110.69] (thansen-n.mt.att.com[135.91.110.69](untrusted sender)) by maillennium.att.com (mailgw1) with ESMTP id <20071015215844gw10010gnme> (Authid: tony); Mon, 15 Oct 2007 21:58:44 +0000 Message-ID: <4713E25D.5060408@att.com> Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:57:49 -0400 From: Tony Hansen User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: EAI WG X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Subject: [EAI] smtpext and Received headers X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org John Klensin and I have been discussing a point in 2821-bis, in particular regarding the extensibility / non-extensibility of Received: headers. Consider these points: *) Smtpext, as currently defined, is building a replacement syntax for the Received: header in section 2.7.3. *) As time marches on, smtpext and smtp-bis/ter/etc would need to stay in sync. *) There have been extensions to the Received: syntax published in the past (e.g., rfc 1428), but it was never codified into the 2821 syntax. *) Smtpext could be expressed more cleanly if it were defined in terms of an extension to the Received: syntax instead of replacing the Received :syntax. *) There has been discussion on the SMTP mailing list about codifying the extensibility of the Received: header. Our thinking is that section 2.7.3 of eai-smtpext could be simplified drastically if Received: were defined in 2821bis as being properly extensible, and uFor were written in terms of [Additional-registered-clauses]. I, for one, think the latter would be preferable to having multiple sort-of-simpatico definitions for Received:. I know that the smtpext draft is already past WGLC, but John also happens to be in the queue for working on the doc. So if the group decides this change is worth doing now before IETF-wide last call, it could get taken care of quickly. Tony Hansen tony@att.com _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 15 21:58:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ihbgp-000766-QX; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 21:57:47 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Ihbgo-00071A-Cr for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 21:57:46 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ihbgn-0006vn-66 for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 21:57:45 -0400 Received: from smtp.cnnic.cn ([159.226.7.146] helo=cnnic.cn) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ihbgj-0004LO-Vy for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 21:57:42 -0400 Received: (eyou send program); Tue, 16 Oct 2007 09:56:36 +0800 Message-ID: <392499796.10677@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO yaojk) (218.241.111.35) by 159.226.7.146 with SMTP; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima --===============2094763670==-- From ima-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 15 22:12:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhbuY-0006O8-0B; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 22:11:58 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IhbuU-0006Ml-TI for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 22:11:55 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhbuT-0006Kl-Kg for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 22:11:53 -0400 Received: from ns.jck.com ([209.187.148.211] helo=bs.jck.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhbuT-0004sA-5m for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 22:11:53 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=p3.JCK.COM) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1IhbuP-000Jdr-L7; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 22:11:49 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 22:11:48 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: YAO Jiankang , Tony Hansen Subject: Re: [EAI] smtpext and Received headers Message-ID: <4AD8D182C225DD452564D098@p3.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: <392499796.10677@cnnic.cn>, <0b7401c80f97$ec3f7840$236ff1da@yaojk> References: <392485631.14630@cnnic.cn> <392499796.10677@cnnic.cn>, <0b7401c80f97$ec3f7840$236ff1da@yaojk> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Cc: EAI WG X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org --On Tuesday, 16 October, 2007 09:57 +0800 YAO Jiankang wrote: >... >> Our thinking is that section 2.7.3 of eai-smtpext could be >> simplified drastically if Received: were defined in 2821bis >> as being properly extensible, > > if section 2.7.3 is simplified, you mean that 2821bis will > also be extended to define the fields below ? > uReturn-path-line = "Return-Path:" FWS uReverse-path > uTime-stamp-line = "Received:" FWS uStamp > uStamp > > if so, does it mean that 2821bis will allow UTF-8 character > in the Received headers? No, of course not. What would happen is that and would remain unchanged, but would turn into Opt-info = [Via] [With] [ID] [For] [Additional-Registered-Clauses] Then one could define uFor in smtpext as one of those , presumably with a prohibition on For appearing if uFor does. It looks as if we need to do the Additional-registered-clauses bit for 2821bis anyway, so a different version of Tony's question is whether it can be used to considerably simplify the syntax --and number of apparent changes -- in smtpext. Before someone asks, none of this works if "For" can have more than one address because, if it does, the semicolon is needed to terminate the address list. But we have come to the conclusion that consensus on the mailing list favors eliminating multiple addresses in "for" as a mistake in 2821. That change will appear in draft-klensin-2821bis-05.txt, when it appears, as well. best, john _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 16 02:47:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhgCB-0006eL-Iy; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 02:46:27 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IhgC9-0006Zo-8X for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 02:46:25 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhgBw-0006A2-B7 for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 02:46:12 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhgBv-0006kL-Uy for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 02:46:12 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IhgAn-0007dD-K0 for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 06:45:01 +0000 Received: from mail.st-michaelis.de ([217.86.170.58]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 06:45:01 +0000 Received: from nobody by mail.st-michaelis.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 06:45:01 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ima@ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 07:29:27 +0200 Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <4713E25D.5060408@att.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: mail.st-michaelis.de X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Subject: [EAI] Re: smtpext and Received headers X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Tony Hansen wrote: > if Received: were defined in 2821bis as being properly extensible, > and uFor were written in terms of [Additional-registered-clauses]. > I, for one, think the latter would be preferable to having multiple > sort-of-simpatico definitions for Received:. Makes sense. But as John wrote later: | Before someone asks, none of this works if "For" can have more | than one address because, if it does, the semicolon is needed to | terminate the address list. The cleanest solution could be a separate RFC explaining this, with the usual rules for the (existing) IANA registry. 2821bis could then say that the Received clauses are now defined in RFC xxxx, and EAI could be the first "client" of RFC xxxx registering its "uFor". For obvious reasons the registry has to allow experimental clauses. Does that make sense ? Frank _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 16 05:56:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ihj9F-0006ni-Ji; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 05:55:37 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Ihj9D-0006mO-RY for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 05:55:35 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ihj9D-0006mC-44 for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 05:55:35 -0400 Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ihj9B-0004J2-Nu for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 05:55:35 -0400 Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39DA72596C2 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:55:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29248-04 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:55:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CF822596ED for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:55:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <47148A8F.2040500@alvestrand.no> Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:55:27 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.13 (X11/20070824) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: EAI WG Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------010805010905090303020508" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 00e94c813bef7832af255170dca19e36 Subject: [EAI] [Fwd: eai - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 70] X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010805010905090303020508 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If anyone needs to modify/extend the conflicts list, or has other specific requests, please say so soon. Harald --------------010805010905090303020508 Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="eai - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 70" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="eai - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 70" Return-Path: Received: from murder ([unix socket]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Cyrus v2.2.8-Mandrake-RPM-2.2.8-4.2.101mdk) with LMTPA; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:27:51 +0200 X-Sieve: CMU Sieve 2.2 Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D19322596ED for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:27:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28318-05 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:27:47 +0200 (CEST) X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.6.7 Received: from ns1.neustar.com (ns1.neustar.com [156.154.16.138]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7A8F2596C1 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:27:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ietf.org (stiedprweb1.va.neustar.com [10.91.34.42]) by ns1.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7710E26E36; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 09:27:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mirror by ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IhiiC-0001lC-Cc; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 05:27:40 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: session-request@ietf.org Cc: chris.newman@sun.com, lisa@osafoundation.org, harald@alvestrand.no, lee@cnnic.cn From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool Subject: eai - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 70 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 05:27:40 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Harald Alvestrand, a working group chair of eai. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: eai Area Name: Applications Area Session Requester: Harald Alvestrand Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 hours Number of Attendees: 60 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: imapext lemonade apparea ipr lemonade ltru dkim sieve sasl dnsop ipr smime atompub krb-wg enum usefor tls Second Priority: dnsext crisp BOF or IRTF Session: please avoid conflict with BOFs of APP area, Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- --------------010805010905090303020508 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima --------------010805010905090303020508-- From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 16 11:36:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhoSK-0004E5-F4; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:35:40 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IhoSJ-0004Dm-6w for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:35:39 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhoSI-0004Dc-9d; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:35:38 -0400 Received: from mail120.messagelabs.com ([216.82.250.83]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhoSH-00084n-R2; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:35:38 -0400 X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: tony@att.com X-Msg-Ref: server-2.tower-120.messagelabs.com!1192548935!17664812!1 X-StarScan-Version: 5.5.12.14.2; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [144.160.128.149] Received: (qmail 31435 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2007 15:35:35 -0000 Received: from sbcsmtp9.sbc.com (HELO flph024.enaf.ffdc.sbc.com) (144.160.128.149) by server-2.tower-120.messagelabs.com with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 16 Oct 2007 15:35:35 -0000 Received: from enaf.ffdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by flph024.enaf.ffdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l9GFZXJW004184; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 08:35:34 -0700 Received: from flph023.ffdc.sbc.com (flph023.ffdc.sbc.com [150.234.117.36]) by flph024.enaf.ffdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l9GFZUPU004153; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 08:35:30 -0700 Received: from ffdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by flph023.ffdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l9GFZUK2010970; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 08:35:30 -0700 Received: from maillennium.att.com (dns.maillennium.att.com [135.25.114.99]) by flph023.ffdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l9GFZQHk010894; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 08:35:26 -0700 Received: from [135.210.128.98] (unknown[135.210.128.98](misconfigured sender)) by maillennium.att.com (mailgw1) with ESMTP id <20071016153524gw10010gsme> (Authid: tony); Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:35:25 +0000 Message-ID: <4714DA04.5010308@att.com> Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:34:28 -0400 From: Tony Hansen User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SMTP Interest Group References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Cc: ietf-822 mailing list , LEMONADE WG mailing list , POP3 extensions mailing list , USEFOR WG , EAI WG mailing list , IMAP extensions mailing list Subject: [EAI] Mailing List Last Call now open for draft-klensin-rfc2821bis-05.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org This is a "formal" Mailing List Last Call on draft-klensin-rfc2821bis-05.txt. The last call will last for two weeks time, ending on October 30, 2007. Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote: > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > > Title : Simple Mail Transfer Protocol > Filename : draft-klensin-rfc2821bis-05.txt >... > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-klensin-rfc2821bis-05.txt If you go to http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-klensin-rfc2821bis and click on [Diff1], you'll see a highlighted list of changes between this and the previous version. Major changes for this release are indicated in Appendix G.7. G.7. Changes from version -04 to -05 1. Added registry pointers to Section 8 (issue 36). 2. "for" clause in Received header reduced to a single mailbox, since this seems to reflect list consensus (issue 37). An "additional registered clauses" entry was made to allow for future extension (also issue 37). 3. Corrected some I-D references to point to now-published RFCs. At this point, all extant issues are considered closed. The Mailing List Last Call is now declared open. Depending on the outcome of the Mailing List Last Call, the next step will be to submit the document (or its revision) to the IESG for IETF-wide Last Call. Thanks! Tony Hansen tony@att.com _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 18 17:24:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iicq9-0000ra-CR; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:23:37 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Iicq7-0000qG-Ii for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:23:35 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iicq5-0000nI-Rv for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:23:33 -0400 Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iicq5-0001aH-En for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:23:33 -0400 Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B38512596FF; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:23:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31888-10; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:23:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.54] (162.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.162]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96CF12596FB; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:23:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4717CEE1.3020705@alvestrand.no> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:23:45 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.13 (X11/20070824) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Harald Alvestrand Subject: Re: [EAI] #1507 NO-WS-CTL: Proposed resolution (direction) References: <4708D2C9.2080909@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <4708D2C9.2080909@alvestrand.no> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Cc: EAI WG X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Harald Alvestrand skrev: > Dealing with something relatively non-controversial: > > I believe the WG thinks it's reasonable for UTF8HDR and DSN to specify > that "utf8-text" builds on the definitions in RFC 2822, in such a way > that if 2822 is updated to remove the NO-WS-CTL characters form the > specification, no textual change will need to be made in the EAI > specifications. > > If nobody objects to this resolution, I hope that Alexey, Frank and the > WG can work out appropriate text. I don't think we can take it upon ourselves to declare messages that are legal per 2822 illegal in the EAI context without specific reason (even though I sometimes wish we could). So dropping "utf8-quoted-pair" is not reasonable for us. But I still think we should go out of our way to not give the impression that we've explicitly decided to allow control characters. So the argument above still seems valid to me. Now with a more specific proposal: write the production of utf8-text as: utf8-text = text / UTF8-non-ascii (replacing all occurences of UTF8-xtra-char with UTF8-non-ascii, as per Frank's suggestion). As per the intro to section 4, "text" is already imported from RFC 2822. Looks better? Does this resolve #1507? Harald _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 18 17:38:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iid3x-0006Lj-Rf; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:37:53 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Iid3w-0006Jc-5W for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:37:52 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iid3v-0006JE-G7 for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:37:51 -0400 Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iid2w-0001r8-4i for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:37:51 -0400 Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 657082596FE; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:36:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32438-05; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:36:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.54] (162.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.162]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20C502596BC; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:36:40 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4717D1F9.30507@alvestrand.no> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:36:57 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.13 (X11/20070824) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Harald Alvestrand Subject: Re: [EAI] #1507 NO-WS-CTL: Proposed resolution (direction) References: <4708D2C9.2080909@alvestrand.no> <4717CEE1.3020705@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <4717CEE1.3020705@alvestrand.no> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Cc: EAI WG X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Harald Alvestrand skrev: > Harald Alvestrand skrev: > >> Dealing with something relatively non-controversial: >> >> I believe the WG thinks it's reasonable for UTF8HDR and DSN to specify >> that "utf8-text" builds on the definitions in RFC 2822, in such a way >> that if 2822 is updated to remove the NO-WS-CTL characters form the >> specification, no textual change will need to be made in the EAI >> specifications. >> >> If nobody objects to this resolution, I hope that Alexey, Frank and the >> WG can work out appropriate text. >> > I don't think we can take it upon ourselves to declare messages that are > legal per 2822 illegal > in the EAI context without specific reason (even though I sometimes wish > we could). > So dropping "utf8-quoted-pair" is not reasonable for us. But I still > think we should go out of our way to not give the impression that we've > explicitly decided to allow control characters. So the argument above > still seems valid to me. > > Now with a more specific proposal: > > write the production of utf8-text as: > > utf8-text = text / UTF8-non-ascii > > (replacing all occurences of UTF8-xtra-char with UTF8-non-ascii, as per > Frank's suggestion). > .... and of course I forgot to say that this applies equally to -dsn. RFC 3464 uncritically imports "text" from 2822, and we're striving for the least amount of incompatibility that we can manage, which says that we should stick to that if at all possible. Harald _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 19 06:15:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iios1-0002V0-02; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 06:14:21 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Iiorz-0002Tg-Cg for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 06:14:19 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iiory-0002TX-Ih for ima@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 06:14:18 -0400 Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iiors-0000Fa-T4 for ima@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 06:14:18 -0400 Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E10D2596D9 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 12:14:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24544-02 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 12:14:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E22092596D5 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 12:14:01 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <47188369.3030909@alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 12:14:01 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.13 (X11/20070824) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: EAI WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9a2be21919e71dc6faef12b370c4ecf5 Subject: [EAI] #1504: Proposed resolution - UTF8HDR 4.2: Nested encodings avoidable? X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org There has been a little discussion on this subject here, but not that much. Main points: - Computational overhead of decoding probably increases approximately linearly with the length of the message, and approximately linearly with the number of levels of encoding. But multiple levels of encoding will occur in only a few situations. - Implementation complexity increases if multiple mechanisms have to be implemented, and new mechanisms will definitely not exist in non-UTF8SMTP mail agents. CURRENT TEXT: The current text in section 4.2 of UTF8HDR -07 is: This specification updates section 6.4 of RFC 2045. RFC 2045 prohibits applying a content-transfer-encoding to all subtypes of message/. This specification relaxes the rule, allowing newly defined MIME types to permit content-transfer-encoding. (see Section 4.6). Normally, transfer of message/global will be done in 8-bit-clean channels, and body parts will have 8-bit encodings. The additional complexity of a content-transfer-encoding on "message" is therefore acceptable. This specification does not prohibit other content-transfer-encodings on nested body parts, so double encoding might happen, but is expected to be rarely seen in practice. Section 4.6 says: 4.6. message/global Internationalized messages, also called UTF8SMTP messages, must only be transmitted as authorized by [EAI-SMTP-extension] or within a non- SMTP environment which supports these messages. A message is a "message/global message", if o it contains UTF-8 header values as specified in this document, or o it contains UTF-8 values in the headers fields of body parts. The second type, used for content return, is message/global which is similar to message/rfc822, except it contains a message with UTF-8 headers. This type has profound implications on the email infrastructure. If this type is sent to a 7-bit-only system, it could be encoded in [RFC2045]. (Note that a system compliant with MIME that doesn't recognize message/global would treat it as "application/octet-stream" as described in Section 5.2.4 of [RFC2046].) Alternatively, SMTP servers and other systems which transfer a message/global body part MAY choose to down-convert it to a message/rfc822 body part using the rules described in [EAI-downgrading]. .... Encoding considerations: The 8-bit or binary content-transfer- encoding MUST be used unless this media type is sent over a 7-bit only transport. (This section contains an obvious copy/paste error at the top of the second paragraph; that will be fixed as an editorial matter.) SUGGESTED RESOLUTION: Continue permitting nested encodings. Improve the language slightly. New text for section 4.2: This specification updates section 6.4 of RFC 2045. RFC 2045 prohibits applying a content-transfer-encoding to all subtypes of message/. This specification relaxes the rule, allowing newly defined MIME types to permit content-transfer-encoding, and permits content-transfer-encoding for message/global (see Section 4.6). Background: Normally, transfer of message/global will be done in 8-bit-clean channels, and body parts will have "identity" encodings, that is, no decoding is necessary. In the case where a message containing a message/global is downgraded from 8-bit to 7-bit as described in [RFC 1652], an encoding may be applied to the message; if the message travels multiple times between a 7-bit environment and an environment implementing UTF8SMTP, multiple levels of encoding may occur. This is expected to be rarely seen in practice, and the potential complexity of other ways of dealing with the issue are thought to be larger than the complexity of allowing nested encodings where necessary. New text for section 4.6: The type message/global is similar to message/rfc822, except that it contains a message that can contain UTF-8 characters in the headers of the message or body parts. headers. If this type is sent to a 7-bit-only system, it has to be encoded in [RFC2045]. (Note that a system compliant with MIME that doesn't recognize message/global would treat it as "application/octet-stream" as described in Section 5.2.4 of [RFC2046].) .... Encoding considerations: Any content-transfer-encoding is permitted. The 8-bit or binary content-transfer-encodings are recommended where permitted. Comments? _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 19 15:07:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IixBp-0001a7-Oq; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 15:07:21 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IixBn-0001X9-Nz for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 15:07:19 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IixBm-0001Wz-IY for ima@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 15:07:18 -0400 Received: from vgateway.libertyrms.info ([207.219.45.62] helo=mail.libertyrms.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IixBg-0005l4-E4 for ima@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 15:07:18 -0400 Received: from mac-andrew.int.libertyrms.com ([10.1.3.198]) by mail.libertyrms.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1IixBW-0005Ha-3h for ima@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 15:07:02 -0400 Received: by mac-andrew.int.libertyrms.com (Postfix, from userid 1019) id 05C343937AF; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 15:07:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 15:07:47 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan To: ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] #1504: Proposed resolution - UTF8HDR 4.2: Nested encodings avoidable? Message-ID: <20071019190747.GF20823@afilias.info> References: <47188369.3030909@alvestrand.no> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47188369.3030909@alvestrand.no> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: andrew@ca.afilias.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Andrew Sullivan List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 12:14:01PM +0200, Harald Alvestrand wrote: [nice summary] > Comments? I just looked over the document with new text "substituted", and I think it's a reasonable answer. So I support the suggested text. A -- Andrew Sullivan 204-4141 Yonge Street Afilias Canada Toronto, Ontario Canada M2P 2A8 jabber: ajsaf@jabber.org +1 416 646 3304 x4110 _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 22 04:50:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ijsxo-0007A6-Vp; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 04:48:44 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Ijsxm-00079R-Jx for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 04:48:42 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ijsxl-00078z-Nf for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 04:48:41 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ijsxh-0000VT-0J for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 04:48:37 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Ijsxc-0002je-Ei for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 08:48:32 +0000 Received: from mail.st-michaelis.de ([217.86.170.58]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 08:48:32 +0000 Received: from nobody by mail.st-michaelis.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 08:48:32 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ima@ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 10:45:38 +0200 Lines: 67 Message-ID: References: <4708D2C9.2080909@alvestrand.no> <4717CEE1.3020705@alvestrand.no> <4717D1F9.30507@alvestrand.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: mail.st-michaelis.de X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 Subject: [EAI] Re: #1507 NO-WS-CTL: Proposed resolution (direction) X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Harald Alvestrand wrote: >>> I believe the WG thinks it's reasonable for UTF8HDR and DSN to = specify >>> that "utf8-text" builds on the definitions in RFC 2822, in such a = way >>> that if 2822 is updated to remove the NO-WS-CTL characters form the >>> specification, no textual change will need to be made in the EAI >>> specifications. >>> If nobody objects to this resolution, I hope that Alexey, Frank and = the >>> WG can work out appropriate text. For that solution the I-Ds should actually import from RFC 2822, example for the DSN I-D: -| utf8-text =3D %d1-9 / ; Any Unicode character except for = NUL, -| %d11 / ; CR and LF, encoded in UTF-8 -| %d12 / -| %d14-127 / -| UTFMB -| -| UTFMB =3D UTF2 / UTF3 / UTF4 +| utf8-text =3D text / ; text as specified in RFC 2821 +| utf8-non-ascii ; or other UTF-8 Unicode points +| +| utf8-non-ascii =3D UTF2 / UTF3 / UTF4 >> I don't think we can take it upon ourselves to declare messages that >> are legal per 2822 illegal> in the EAI context without specific = reason >> (even though I sometimes wish we could). Maybe, see above. If you like to remove NO-WS-CTL from in = 2822upd please say so on the rfc822 list. So far Charles and others including = me focussed their attacks on , , and . Maybe it's better to remove NO-WS-CTL from instead of (?) >> So dropping "utf8-quoted-pair" is not reasonable for us. Here I disagree. We can leave the RFC 2822 as is, and we should not try to make it worse. Maybe existing parsers will interpret a as "take the next byte as a literal". That's likely not what we want for 2..4 UTF-8 bytes. I think we don't need a "new"=20 , what should it do for EAI, obscure C1 controls ? >> Now with a more specific proposal: >> write the production of utf8-text as: >> utf8-text =3D text / UTF8-non-ascii ACK, something like this mentioning the source (RFC 2822) for . > RFC 3464 uncritically imports "text" from 2822 It imports it from RFC 822 (STD 11). RFC 3464 is a DS, it couldn't=20 import anything from a PS like RFC 2822 without procedural tricks. The RFC 822 includes NUL, bare CR, bare LF, and 2822 NO-WS-CTL, I'm sure that we don't want it in any EAI draft... ;-) Frank _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 23 04:07:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IkEnV-0002CC-JM; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 04:07:33 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IkEnU-0002Af-BP for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 04:07:32 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IkEnT-00029d-E8 for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 04:07:31 -0400 Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([158.38.152.233]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IkEnT-0003Nb-15 for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 04:07:31 -0400 Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13C3725972F for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 10:07:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27708-02 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 10:07:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from htat43p-no.corp.google.com (unknown [193.0.9.231]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74878259723 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 10:07:20 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:23:00 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: EAI WG Message-ID: <959ECDAD90DAF5D40369E580@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.7 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 Subject: [EAI] EAI - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 70 (fwd) X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Yell if it's a real problem. ------------ Forwarded Message ------------ Date: 22. oktober 2007 11:49 -0400 From: IETF Secretariat To: harald@alvestrand.no Cc: lee@cnnic.cn, chris.newman@sun.com, lisa@osafoundation.org, session-request@ietf.org Subject: EAI - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 70 Dear Harald Alvestrand, The sessions that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the information of sessions that you have requested. EAI Session 1 (2 hours) Monday, Afternoon Session III 1740-1950 Room Name: Salon A/B ---------------------------------------------- Requested Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: eai Area Name: Applications Area Session Requester: Harald Alvestrand Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 hours Number of Attendees: 60 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: imapext lemonade apparea ipr lemonade ltru dkim sieve sasl dnsop ipr smime atompub krb-wg enum usefor tls Second Priority: dnsext crisp BOF or IRTF Session: please avoid conflict with BOFs of APP area, Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 23 07:57:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IkINh-0006Po-L3; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:57:09 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IkINf-0006J0-5S for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:57:07 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IkINe-00065E-9L for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:57:06 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IkINb-0003Fz-Rm for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:57:04 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IkIN7-0005yD-BY for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:56:33 +0000 Received: from mail.st-michaelis.de ([217.86.170.58]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:56:33 +0000 Received: from nobody by mail.st-michaelis.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:56:33 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ima@ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 13:53:03 +0200 Lines: 3 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: mail.st-michaelis.de X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2870a44b67ee17965ce5ad0177e150f4 Subject: [EAI] IDN TLD test X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Check out , it mentions RFC 4952. Frank _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 24 04:46:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IkbrX-0003ue-RC; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 04:45:15 -0400 Received: from ima by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IkbrW-0003tH-4Y for ima-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 04:45:14 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IkbrV-0003rc-MN for ima@ietf.org; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 04:45:13 -0400 Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.229.2] helo=ciao.gmane.org) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IkbrQ-0005mp-VI for ima@ietf.org; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 04:45:09 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IkbrO-0006RM-V5 for ima@ietf.org; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 08:45:06 +0000 Received: from mail.st-michaelis.de ([217.86.170.58]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 08:45:06 +0000 Received: from nobody by mail.st-michaelis.de with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 08:45:06 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ima@ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 10:41:52 +0200 Lines: 52 Message-ID: References: <47188369.3030909@alvestrand.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: mail.st-michaelis.de X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 Subject: [EAI] Re: #1504: Proposed resolution - UTF8HDR 4.2: Nested encodingsavoidable? X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Harald Alvestrand wrote: > SUGGESTED RESOLUTION: > Continue permitting nested encodings. Improve the language slightly. Okay, I think you can permit it. But I'm not happy with the way how you propose to do it: =20 > New text for section 4.2: =20 > This specification updates section 6.4 of RFC 2045. RFC 2045 > prohibits applying a content-transfer-encoding to all subtypes of > message/. This specification relaxes the rule, allowing newly > defined MIME types to permit content-transfer-encoding, and permits > content-transfer-encoding for message/global (see > Section 4.6). I think that this section in RFC 2045 has to be updated by an "erratum" as outlined in . IMO the EAI charter doesn't cover "experiments" with MIME 1.0. =20 If Ned confirms this issue as "2045 erratum", and if message/global survives the expert review on the "types list", we're ready for an IETF Last Call. To be sure the issue should be mentioned in the "security considerations" of message/global, i.e. in section 6 of UTF8HDR. > New text for section 4.6: =20 > The type message/global is similar to message/rfc822, except that > it contains a message that can contain UTF-8 characters in the=20 > headers of the message or body parts. headers. s/headers of the message or body parts. headers/header/. Do not mess with MIME 1.0. If a future version of MIME allows UTF-8 in Content-* header fields we'll see what happens. Let's focus on=20 "E-mail Address Internationalization" for now. > If this type is sent to a 7-bit-only system, it has to be encoded in > [RFC2045]. s/in/using a 7-bit Content-Transfer-Encodings as specified in/ > Comments? Since John talked about a "MIME expert" saying "ugh" some=20 months ago I wondered who he had in mind (after all he's the co-author of 4288, 4289, and 2048). Please get Keith or Ned to check #1504 and the unrelated "UTF-8 in Content-*" issue. (JFTR, that's my 3rd request for an external MIME review). Frank _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima