From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 1 12:54:35 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 265143A6893; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:54:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87C9F3A6BA5 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:54:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.25 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.25 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.849, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rdkZCC1EIro7 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns1.qubic.net (ns1.qubic.net [208.69.177.116]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7A0B3A67A2 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from subman.resistor.net ([10.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by ns1.qubic.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id m61JsORr012969 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 12:54:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1214942079; x=1215028479; bh=ixBGSh0qXidU4Uy2VabDbqJ5muoxdh52Tjig rPeEuT0=; h=Message-Id:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References: Mime-Version:Content-Type:Cc; b=weRG0gh9V5xQUM2TKODa1+Vih83AARAgFQ 5/xrYE6rX+OF1UhhRsjKz+irsrTW6xS8xeGvibw6sQwfkUOpTGFFS9JBqt3c3hxVyaZ lWmSJVKmjxzkpkZQfVrTkjOdTSdOiSMICJb76m+ove6EvoeRrsJq9CdiVSWMWwz49A/ sdk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=mail; d=resistor.net; c=simple; q=dns; b=e0yPB5dvxUeXwYayr2xTjfggKKlXk0Fba+HCMPu8V/VLT74DPBf3OQXbheORosBcn fBU5JD0z63yyyMEo/b0qVDsXslSM4NQ0sqbBIluM+0RV8NuyyGusg4kLER+s+AB+KK7 D5CacRJ8+16GcsQVnttaeiK4Ac3bB57XMgA1Nxc= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20080701114354.02d48040@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 12:54:13 -0700 To: EAI WG From: SM In-Reply-To: <48579CF9.2@alvestrand.no> References: <48579CF9.2@alvestrand.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [EAI] REVIEW: draft-ietf-eai-downgrade-07 X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org At 04:16 17-06-2008, Harald Alvestrand wrote: >This is the WG Last Call for the document entitled "Downgrading >mechanism for Email Address Internationalization", >draft-ietf-eai-downgrade-07.txt. The abstract mentions: "To avoid bouncing internationalized Email messages when a server in the delivery path does not support the UTF8SMTP extension, some sort of converting mechanism is required." I suggest using "rejecting" instead of "bouncing" as bounces are frown upon nowadays. In Section 1: "To avoid bouncing such messages when a server is encountered which does not support the UTF8SMTP extension, this document describes a downgrading mechanism." I suggest a rewording: This document describes a downgrading mechanism to avoid rejection of such messages when a server which does not support the UTF8SMTP extension is encountered. "In Section 3, many header fields starting with "downgraded" are introduced." I suggest using "Downgraded-" as in Section 3. In Section 3, many header fields starting with "Downgraded-" are introduced. In Section 4: "The "RCPT TO" command may have an ORCPT parameter when the recipient address is downgraded. The ORCPT parameter is used for DSN [RFC3461]." The wording might suggest that an ORCPT parameter is added when a downgrade is done. The "RCPT TO" command can have an ORCPT parameter if the DSN extension [RFC3461] is supported. If the ORCPT parameter contains ... "As a result of the recipient address replacement, the domain part of the original recipient address may not equal to the domain part of the new recipient address." Is that "original recipient address" the address in the ORCPT parameter? It doesn't sound like it if I read the entire paragraph. That term is used in RFC 3461. It's better to avoid it. As a result of the recipient address downgrading, the domain part of the recipient address prior to downgrading might be different from the domain part of the new recipient address. If the result of address resolution for the domain part of the new recipient address contains the server at the connection destination of the SMTP session for the recipient address prior to downgrading, the SMTP connection is valid for the new recipient address. Otherwise, the downgrading process MUST NOT send the downgraded message to the new recipient address via the connection and MUST try to send the downgraded message to the new recipient address. In Section 7: "Recipients addresses can be undisclosed if those addresses are listed on Bcc or group address. Those undisclosed addresses are used only in the Envelope. Copying information from the Envelope into headers risks inadvertent information disclosure (not just about addresses). See Section 4 for instructions on recipient address handling." I'm copying a sentence from RFC 2821 Section 7.2: Addresses that do not appear in the message headers may appear in the RCPT commands to an SMTP server for a number of reasons. Copying information from the Envelope into headers risks inadvertent information disclosure (see RFC 2821). Regards, -sm _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 4 05:00:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EDDA3A6B77; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 05:00:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B3AC3A6B80 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 05:00:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ada7b3A5ShXn for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 05:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B473A3A6B64 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 05:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86D3439E6F0; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 14:00:35 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hbfA+ewxj-g4; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 14:00:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.178] (162.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.162]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E04BF39E684; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 14:00:34 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <486E10E6.6050901@alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 14:00:38 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.14ubu (X11/20080502) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SM References: <48579CF9.2@alvestrand.no> <6.2.5.6.2.20080701114354.02d48040@resistor.net> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20080701114354.02d48040@resistor.net> Cc: EAI WG Subject: Re: [EAI] REVIEW: draft-ietf-eai-downgrade-07 X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Thank you very much for your review! SM wrote: > At 04:16 17-06-2008, Harald Alvestrand wrote: >> This is the WG Last Call for the document entitled "Downgrading >> mechanism for Email Address Internationalization", >> draft-ietf-eai-downgrade-07.txt. > > The abstract mentions: > > "To avoid bouncing internationalized Email messages when a server in > the > delivery path does not support the UTF8SMTP extension, some sort of > converting mechanism is required." > > I suggest using "rejecting" instead of "bouncing" as bounces are frown > upon nowadays. Since "reject" is commonly used to cover both refusals to accept and returning of non-delivery notifications, I agree with the change. I wouldn't agree with a change that suggested that non-delivery notifications can't be used. For the rest, these seem like improvements to the text. Thanks! > > In Section 1: > > "To avoid bouncing such messages when a > server is encountered which does not support the UTF8SMTP extension, > this document describes a downgrading mechanism." > > I suggest a rewording: > > This document describes a downgrading mechanism to avoid rejection > of such messages > when a server which does not support the UTF8SMTP extension is > encountered. > > "In Section 3, many header fields starting with "downgraded" are > introduced." > > I suggest using "Downgraded-" as in Section 3. > > In Section 3, many header fields starting with "Downgraded-" are > introduced. > > In Section 4: > > "The "RCPT TO" command may have an ORCPT parameter when the recipient > address is downgraded. The ORCPT parameter is used for DSN > [RFC3461]." > > The wording might suggest that an ORCPT parameter is added when a > downgrade is done. > > The "RCPT TO" command can have an ORCPT parameter if the DSN extension > [RFC3461] is supported. If the ORCPT parameter contains ... > > "As a result of the recipient address replacement, the domain part of > the original recipient address may not equal to the domain part of > the new recipient address." > > Is that "original recipient address" the address in the ORCPT > parameter? It doesn't sound like it if I read the entire paragraph. > That term is used in RFC 3461. It's better to avoid it. > > As a result of the recipient address downgrading, the domain part of > the recipient address prior to downgrading might be different from the > domain part of the new recipient address. If the result of address > resolution for the domain part of the new recipient address contains > the server at the connection destination of the SMTP session for the > recipient address prior to downgrading, the SMTP connection is > valid for > the new recipient address. Otherwise, the downgrading process MUST > NOT > send the downgraded message to the new recipient address via the > connection > and MUST try to send the downgraded message to the new recipient > address. > > In Section 7: > > "Recipients addresses can be undisclosed if those addresses are > listed on Bcc or group address. Those undisclosed addresses are > used only in the Envelope. Copying information from the Envelope > into headers risks inadvertent information disclosure (not just > about addresses). See Section 4 for instructions on recipient > address handling." > > I'm copying a sentence from RFC 2821 Section 7.2: > > Addresses that do not appear in the message headers may appear in the > RCPT commands to an SMTP server for a number of reasons. Copying > information from the Envelope into headers risks inadvertent > information > disclosure (see RFC 2821). > > Regards, > -sm > _______________________________________________ > IMA mailing list > IMA@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima > _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 4 05:05:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E06293A6B77; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 05:05:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD8FE3A6B77 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 05:05:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2fJ-eJ683ZAa for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 05:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16F103A6B64 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 05:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBC6D39E6F0 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 14:05:37 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tz4v6ywUNdQz for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 14:05:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.178] (162.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.162]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C1FD39E684 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 14:05:37 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <486E1215.2080103@alvestrand.no> Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 14:05:41 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.14ubu (X11/20080502) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: EAI WG Subject: [EAI] Proposal for agenda, EAI meeting, Dublin X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org The list has been quiet for a while, but it is time to get an agenda out. Suggested topics: 1 - Status report on core documents (hopefully "they have been approved") 2 - Review of Last Call comments and last version of -downgrade Hopefully, we can send this to the IESG without more changes. 3 - POP and IMAP documents 4 - Mailinglist 5 - Status of implementations 6 - Future work, next steps If this is appropriate, I'll try to flesh out before the meeting. NOTE: I am on holiday with limited connectivity most of the time until the Dublin meeting. Harald _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 4 06:06:44 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 957C83A6B6C; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 06:06:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8F143A6B6C for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 06:06:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.742 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.742 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.143, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OKfxZaYvTAEQ for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 06:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B31DB3A6B2C for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 06:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=p3.JCK.COM) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1KEkzt-00038N-Jq; Fri, 04 Jul 2008 09:06:45 -0400 Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 09:06:44 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Harald Alvestrand , EAI WG Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <486E1215.2080103@alvestrand.no> References: <486E1215.2080103@alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: [EAI] Proposal for agenda, EAI meeting, Dublin X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org --On Friday, 04 July, 2008 14:05 +0200 Harald Alvestrand wrote: > 1 - Status report on core documents (hopefully "they have been > approved") One hopes, but that clearly depends on getting a revised version of "utf8-headers" out and hoping it does not introduce any new issues. I can't even guess on the others. > 2 - Review of Last Call comments and last version of -downgrade > Hopefully, we can send this to the IESG without more changes. > > 3 - POP and IMAP documents > > 4 - Mailinglist > > 5 - Status of implementations > > 6 - Future work, next steps > > If this is appropriate, I'll try to flesh out before the > meeting. If the rest of it goes as the list above suggests, topic 6 should explicitly include "start on revised charter". > NOTE: I am on holiday with limited connectivity most of the > time until the Dublin meeting. Enjoy yourself. john _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 4 21:55:09 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91CE728C0D7; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 21:55:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CF8B28C0CF for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 21:55:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.196 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.196 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=3.196, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z5fzIn2EbCvC for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 21:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C66228C0CE for ; Fri, 4 Jul 2008 21:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1KEzna-0007CL-PW for ima@ietf.org; Sat, 05 Jul 2008 04:55:02 +0000 Received: from rain.gmane.org ([80.91.229.7]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 05 Jul 2008 04:55:02 +0000 Received: from hmdmhdfmhdjmzdtjmzdtzktdkztdjz by rain.gmane.org with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 05 Jul 2008 04:55:02 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ima@ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2008 06:53:11 +0200 Organization: Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <486E1215.2080103@alvestrand.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.gmane.org X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 Subject: Re: [EAI] Proposal for agenda, EAI meeting, Dublin X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org John C Klensin wrote: >> Status report on core documents (hopefully "they have been >> approved" > One hopes, but that clearly depends on getting a revised version > of "utf8-headers" out and hoping it does not introduce any new > issues. I can't even guess on the others. RFC 5248 got its number. EAI DSN was approved with two comments: https://datatracker.ietf.org/idtracker/draft-ietf-eai-dsn/comment/83644/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/idtracker/draft-ietf-eai-dsn/comment/83634/ UTF8SMTP and the utf8-headers triggered a bunch of comments and DISCUSSions. It is not always obvious which draft is affected, but it is not only about utf8-headers: https://datatracker.ietf.org/idtracker/draft-ietf-eai-smtpext/ Frank _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 6 16:49:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 002913A69B5; Sun, 6 Jul 2008 16:49:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17B123A69B5 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 2008 16:49:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.855 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.855 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.745, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cvohfEDxZ598 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 2008 16:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 302713A69A2 for ; Sun, 6 Jul 2008 16:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1E3D39E6FF for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 01:49:20 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a4xOLucsLjQ2 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 01:49:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.54] (162.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.162]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 603AD39E4E1 for ; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 01:49:20 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <48715A93.1030207@alvestrand.no> Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 01:51:47 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080505) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: EAI WG Subject: [EAI] Agenda for Dublin X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Here's my current draft for Dublin. Note that I will be mostly out of contact for the next 3 weeks; if the WG agrees to changes to the agenda, Xiaodong can update the version on the IETF site. Harald Email Address Internationalization (EAI) Agenda Meeting: IETF 72, Dublin Date and time: Monday, July 28, 1740-1950 Place: Newcastle room Chairs: Harald Alvestrand , Xiaodong Lee Version: 1.0 ---------------------------------------------------- 1740 - Scribe, blue sheet, agenda bashing 1750 - Status report on core documents (hopefully "they have been approved") Documents: draft-ietf-eai-smtpext-11.txt draft-ietf-eai-utf8headers-09.txt draft-ietf-eai-dsn-06.txt 1805 - Review of Last Call comments and last version of -downgrade Hopefully, we can send this to the IESG without more changes. Documents: draft-ietf-eai-downgrade-07.txt 1815 - POP and IMAP documents Documents: draft-ietf-eai-imap-utf8-02.txt draft-ietf-eai-pop-03.txt 1830 - Mailinglist Documents: draft-ietf-eai-mailinglist-03.txt 1845 - Status of implementations 1915 - Future work, next steps, new charter 1940 - Summary of decisions, action items 1950 - End of meeting _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 7 10:42:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01AF83A6AC1; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:42:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@ietf.org Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id D0EDF3A68DF; Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:42:24 -0700 (PDT) X-idtracker: yes From: The IESG To: IETF-Announce Message-Id: <20080707174224.D0EDF3A68DF@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:42:24 -0700 (PDT) Cc: Internet Architecture Board , eai mailing list , eai chair , RFC Editor Subject: [EAI] Document Action: 'Internationalized Delivery Status and Disposition Notifications' to Experimental RFC X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Internationalized Delivery Status and Disposition Notifications ' as an Experimental RFC This document is the product of the Email Address Internationalization Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Lisa Dusseault and Chris Newman. A URL of this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eai-dsn-06.txt Technical Summary This document specifies a format for handling delivery status notifications when those notifications concern messages that are extended according to the EAI UTF8SMTP extension. Working Group Summary The WG came to consensus on this document. Document Quality The document has been reviewed in the WG. Personnel Lisa Dusseault reviewed this document for the IESG. Harald Alvestrand is the document shepherd. RFC Editor Note Please chck for updated references like 2821 _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 8 10:00:06 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ED3128C1D5; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:00:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@ietf.org Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id AA85C3A6A88; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:00:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20080708170001.AA85C3A6A88@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: [EAI] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-eai-smtpext-13.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Email Address Internationalization Working Group of the IETF. Title : SMTP extension for internationalized email address Author(s) : J. Yao, W. MAO Filename : draft-ietf-eai-smtpext-13.txt Pages : 24 Date : 2008-7-8 This document specifies an SMTP extension for transport and delivery of email messages with internationalized email addresses or header information. Communication with systems that do not implement this specification is specified in another document. This document updates some syntaxes and rules defined in RFC 2821 and RFC 2822, and has some material updating RFC 4952. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eai-smtpext-13.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-eai-smtpext-13.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-7-8094842.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima --NextPart-- From ima-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 14:38:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC3E63A693C; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:38:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FD8C3A6891 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:38:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ik9zBH31NgSV for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:38:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailb.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0932F3A693C for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:38:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.96) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:38:53 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.39]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.96]) with mapi; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:38:53 -0700 From: Shawn Steele To: "ima@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:38:52 -0700 Thread-Topic: Body parts Thread-Index: AcjgZAUfs+r+JEFGT/SE26PdJrpBNABp+yrw Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [EAI] Body parts X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org (That subject doesn't sound quite right out of context :) I was looking at the drafts and trying to find a recommendation for the body part. I see the requirement for 8 bit body parts, however I would like to see that the body SHOULD be encoded in UTF-8 for UTF8SMTP. Is there any such language and I just missed it? Thanks, - Shawn _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 9 15:02:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 614483A6832; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:02:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 358C43A67B0 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:02:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.381 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.381 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.784, BAYES_00=-2.599, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=3.196, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qa4DB52KWWNT for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B75123A6832 for ; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 15:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1KGhjm-00048Z-8z for ima@ietf.org; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 22:02:10 +0000 Received: from rain.gmane.org ([80.91.229.7]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 22:02:10 +0000 Received: from hmdmhdfmhdjmzdtjmzdtzktdkztdjz by rain.gmane.org with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 09 Jul 2008 22:02:10 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ima@ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:02:36 +0200 Organization: Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.gmane.org X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 Subject: Re: [EAI] Body parts X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Shawn Steele wrote: > I would like to see that the body SHOULD be encoded in UTF-8 > for UTF8SMTP. Is there any such language and I just missed it? No such language, you didn't miss it. Sooner or later we will use UTF-8 everywhere, but that is not directly related to EAI: Users in an EAI-friendly environment might still have reasons to prefer other charsets in their communications, e.g., if some of their correspondents cannot handle UTF-8 well. MUAs supporting EAI likely offer UTF-8 as default, anything else would be bizarre. Adding a "you SHOULD do the obvious" norm does not really help, or does it ? Frank _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 02:29:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EA4C3A69DB; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 02:29:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C9C03A68FE for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 02:29:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.157 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.157 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.046, BAYES_05=-1.11, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mrvNVxERJupk for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 02:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net [79.135.125.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E62953A6888 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 02:29:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster^pop3^clerew^man&ac*uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-2.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 4875d68d.739c.377 for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:29:49 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m6A9TkWA013869 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:29:47 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:29:46 +0100 To: IMA From: "Charles Lindsey" MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.25 (SunOS) Subject: Re: [EAI] Body parts X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"; DelSp="yes" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 22:38:52 +0100, Shawn Steele = wrote: > (That subject doesn't sound quite right out of context :) > > I was looking at the drafts and trying to find a recommendation for the = > body part. I see the requirement for 8 bit body parts, however I would = > like to see that the body SHOULD be encoded in UTF-8 for UTF8SMTP. Is = > there any such language and I just missed it? Actually, there may be good reasons for using other charsets in body = parts. Charsets in the higher reaches of Unicode require rather long = strings of bytes per character in UTF-8. That is not a serious issue for = headers, but body parts might well be significantly shorter in charsets = more suited to the language in use. Can anyone provide data on the efficiency of UTF-8 and BIG5, for example? -- = Charles=A0H.=A0Lindsey=A0---------At=A0Home,=A0doing=A0my=A0own=A0thing----= -------------------- Tel:=A0+44=A0161=A0436=A06131=A0 = =A0=A0=A0Web:=A0http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email:=A0chl@clerew.man.ac.uk=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Snail:=A05=A0Clerewood=A0Ave= ,=A0CHEADLE,=A0SK8=A03JU,=A0U.K. PGP:=A02C15F1A9=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Fingerprint:=A073=A06D=A0C2=A051=A093=A0A0= =A001=A0E7=A065=A0E8=A064=A07E=A014=A0A4=A0AB=A0A5 _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 03:03:06 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09DBD3A68F0; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 03:03:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AE683A68F0 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 03:03:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.036 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.036 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.300, BAYES_50=0.001, HELO_EQ_TW=1.335] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zHWlEqPVcEir for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 03:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from twnic.net.tw (twnic.net.tw [211.72.210.250]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DC6B3A67F2 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 03:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from abelPC (pc093.twnic.net.tw [211.72.211.93]) (authenticated bits=0) by twnic.net.tw (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m6AA2xds031000; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:03:01 +0800 Message-ID: From: "Abel" To: "IMA" , "Charles Lindsey" References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:41:31 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6000.16480 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6000.16545 Subject: Re: [EAI] Body parts X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Dear Charles, What kind of the efficiency ? May you explain more. BRs Abel > Can anyone provide data on the efficiency of UTF-8 and BIG5, for example? _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 11:02:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7E3A3A692A; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:02:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A84D53A6A15 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:02:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.350, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ITn+BJg+Fi4G for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E8913A692A for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=p3.JCK.COM) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1KH0U2-000LeB-MX; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:03:10 -0400 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:03:09 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Charles Lindsey , IMA Message-ID: <9E201D178A6CDECFDBBB9E98@p3.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: [EAI] Body parts X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org --On Thursday, 10 July, 2008 10:29 +0100 Charles Lindsey wrote: > Actually, there may be good reasons for using other charsets > in body parts. Charsets in the higher reaches of Unicode > require rather long strings of bytes per character in UTF-8. > That is not a serious issue for headers, but body parts might > well be significantly shorter in charsets more suited to the > language in use. While that clearly would have been a very big deal in the slow and expensive Internet connections of, say, 20-odd years ago, I imagine we could have an endless, and pointless, debate about this subject in today's environment. > Can anyone provide data on the efficiency of UTF-8 and BIG5, > for example? I'm sure someone will correct me if I get this wrong but, as I understand it, Big5 is is a strictly two-byte (16 bit) character set. UTF-8 goes to three octets above U+07FF and the first CJK character is U+3000 (that character and the ones close to it are invalid for IDNA, but that is irrelevant here) and stays at three octets until one gets out of plane 0. So, one answer to your question is that for CJK characters that are coded in the Unicode BMP (Plane 0), the storage ratio is going to be strictly two octets of Big5 to three octets of UTF-8. If one starts mixing in characters from Plane 2, then UTF-8 starts occupying four octets. I don't know whether there are any such characters in Big5 but, if there are, the efficiency ratio would depend on the percentage of Plane 2 characters and than, in turn, would depend on the specific corpus involved. But, coming back to my opening comments, at today's bandwidth, processing, and storage costs, it would take a rather large body of text for any of this to make any difference. And, for an email body part containing a large enough body of text for the difference to be significant, compressing UTF-8 using one or another standard method would almost certainly yield more improvement than translating the UTF-8 to Big5. Note that there may be lots of other reasons to transmit body parts in Big5 (or GB or Shift-JIS or...), but I suggest that transmission or storage efficiency will rarely be one of them. john _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 11:15:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3654028C11A; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:15:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@ietf.org Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id DA9183A6A27; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:15:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20080710181501.DA9183A6A27@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: [EAI] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-eai-utf8headers-12.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Email Address Internationalization Working Group of the IETF. Title : Internationalized Email Headers Author(s) : . Yang Filename : draft-ietf-eai-utf8headers-12.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2008-7-10 Full internationalization of electronic mail requires not only the capability to transmit non-ASCII content, to encode selected information in specific header fields, and to use non-ASCII characters in envelope addresses. It also requires being able to express those addresses and information based on them in mail header fields. This document specifies an experimental variant of Internet mail that permits the use of Unicode encoded in UTF-8, rather than ASCII, as the base form for Internet email header field bodies. This form is permitted in transmission only if authorized by an SMTP extension, as specified in an associated specification. And this specification updates section 6.4 of [RFC2045] to conform with the requirements. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eai-utf8headers-12.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-eai-utf8headers-12.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-7-10110235.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima --NextPart-- From ima-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 12:26:54 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C6F528C0E9; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:26:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7AB728C0FA for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:26:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MW6BoSxYN7Zd for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 283763A6A3E for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.188) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:27:06 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.39]) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.188]) with mapi; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:27:06 -0700 From: Shawn Steele To: "ima@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:27:02 -0700 Thread-Topic: Body parts Thread-Index: Acjiv7+al1C7LuA0RYObhGTDy0IrhgAAwyyA Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [EAI] Body parts X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Charles said: > Actually, there may be good reasons for using other charsets in body > parts. Charsets in the higher reaches of Unicode require rather long > strings of bytes per character in UTF-8. That is not a serious issue for > headers, but body parts might well be significantly shorter in charsets > more suited to the language in use. > Can anyone provide data on the efficiency of UTF-8 and BIG5, for example? The presumed savings isn't actually very much. Add an attachment, jpg, html encoding or whatnot and the "savings" will be lost in the noise. I concede that it might be interesting for a satellite text message or something where the bandwidth is amazingly poor, however that could be handled by the device's portal/gateway. The cost of not using UTF-8 is a compatibility. The #1 globalization issue I see is related to code page incompatibilities and the #1 place I see problems is in e-mail. Within the windows environment it is "only" because the system code page varies between machine, but between OS's or applications I also see a large difference in the supported character ranges, and variations in the supported character ranges. Some standards are even inconsistent. The IETF mail lists are common examples of this problem. Many non-ASCII characters get lost in transmission, leading people to ask for Unicode code points or resending. The additional emails alone negate any minor savings in encoding size. The additional noise and lost information also hurts those who received the original mail as intended. - Shawn _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 12:27:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87E5F3A69AF; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:27:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E891928C111 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:26:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DCE5zMLbSGtJ for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailc.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27EFD28C0D8 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:27:14 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.39]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:27:14 -0700 From: Shawn Steele To: "ima@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:27:12 -0700 Thread-Topic: Body parts Thread-Index: Acjiv7+al1C7LuA0RYObhGTDy0IrhgAAMvPA Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [EAI] Body parts X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Frank said: > Adding a "you SHOULD do the obvious" norm does not really help, or does it ? I think it does. EAI requires that the client software understand UTF-8 (otherwise From: and To: look stupid), so any application must therefore be able to handle UTF-8 in the body as well. This would help ensure that new implementations support UTF-8. (Many modern devices, particularly phones, don't bother leading to the aforementioned compatibility issues). I wouldn't mind language that said. "Conforming applications MUST support UTF-8 in the body part and SHOULD use UTF-8 unless they have a really really good reason". MUST support it so that everyone can expect that recipients will understand the code page (right now there's no *guaranteed* code page that'll work across all environments) SHOULD use it since it's the most consistent of the encodings and if it MUST be supported, then compatibility is ensured. I didn't suggest "MUST" because I realize that some devices may have a more difficult time with the transition, although gateways could help. - Shawn _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 13:57:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8F3B3A69F5; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:57:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FDF93A69EC for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:57:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.25 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.25 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.653, BAYES_00=-2.599, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=3.196, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X9-NQYL+7T0t for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84D4F3A69BD for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1KH3Cu-0000Ov-AH for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 20:57:40 +0000 Received: from rain.gmane.org ([80.91.229.7]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 20:57:40 +0000 Received: from hmdmhdfmhdjmzdtjmzdtzktdkztdjz by rain.gmane.org with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 20:57:40 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ima@ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 22:58:04 +0200 Organization: Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.gmane.org X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 Subject: Re: [EAI] Body parts X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Shawn Steele wrote: >> a "you SHOULD do the obvious" norm does not really help, or does it ? > I think it does. EAI requires that the client software understand > UTF-8 (otherwise From: and To: look stupid), so any application > must therefore be able to handle UTF-8 in the body as well. That's what I doubted: An EAI-aware MUA can of course handle UTF-8, and hopefully the user of this MUA finds an e-mail service provider with EAI-aware MSA / IMAP / POP3. But this user might still have friends with less capable MUAs and service providers, or use mailing lists and newsgroups where UTF-8 is not yet the norm. A technical SHOULD trying to modify netiquette would make me nervous. Limited to "SHOULD be the default" it is acceptable, this could be added to the eai-scenarios and/or eai-email-clients draft. > This would help ensure that new implementations support UTF-8. As you said, when they can do EAI at all they must support UTF-8. And anybody implementing a MUA today without supporting UTF-8 is a hopeless case. The email-arch draft could note that as fact, it has no I18N considerations so far: A point for the Last Call, the last time when I wanted a mere informative EAI reference in this draft a bunch of IETF mail reactionists tried to lynch me... :-) > Many modern devices, particularly phones, don't bother leading > to the aforementioned compatibility issues The LEMONADE folks don't belong to the old mail guard, I think. > right now there's no *guaranteed* code page that'll work across > all environments There's RFC 2277 and 5198, anybody who still hasn't heard the shot is deaf. But UTF-8 is IMHO no *guaranteed* code page. On my box characters in code page 437, 819, 850, 858, 878, 923, 1252, and others are *guaranteed* to work, encoded as UTF-8 or in various "legacy" charsets. Actually I never tested if my MUA can do 437, 850, 858, or 923, but the used fonts offer all glyphs for these and many other code pages. When I want a *guarantee* I use 1252, and that is my default, replacing . Frank P.S.: Just for fun using http://purl.net/net/cp/878 in reply to your 819 ;-) _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 10 19:52:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 352993A6AC8; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 19:52:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D99B3A6AC8 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 19:52:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.586 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.586 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.076, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r+Y9Ih1HXVf9 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 19:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40C453A6AC6 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 2008 19:52:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse3.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.23]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m6B2r8QZ014685 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:53:10 +0900 (JST) Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse3.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 4f0a_7e000d70_4ef4_11dd_9533_001d0969ab06; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:53:08 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:53270) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:47:11 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080711112033.03ba2010@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:33:13 +0900 To: John C Klensin , Charles Lindsey , IMA From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <9E201D178A6CDECFDBBB9E98@p3.JCK.COM> References: <9E201D178A6CDECFDBBB9E98@p3.JCK.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [EAI] Body parts X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org At 03:03 08/07/11, John C Klensin wrote: >So, one answer to your question is that for CJK characters that >are coded in the Unicode BMP (Plane 0), the storage ratio is >going to be strictly two octets of Big5 to three octets of >UTF-8. Yes. That's the basic ratio. >If one starts mixing in characters from Plane 2, then >UTF-8 starts occupying four octets. I don't know whether there >are any such characters in Big5 but, if there are, the >efficiency ratio would depend on the percentage of Plane 2 >characters and than, in turn, would depend on the specific >corpus involved. I don't think Big5 itself has Plane2 characters. Even vendor extension stuff must have made it into extension A, which is in the BMP. Even otherwise, unless it's a list of characters in Plane 2 or something else Plane2-specific, there'd probably be about 1 in a thousand or so only from Plane2, so it's mostly irrelevant. >But, coming back to my opening comments, at today's bandwidth, >processing, and storage costs, it would take a rather large body >of text for any of this to make any difference. Yes. These days, I'm less worried by large emails, but more by their total number :-(. >And, for an >email body part containing a large enough body of text for the >difference to be significant, compressing UTF-8 using one or >another standard method would almost certainly yield more >improvement than translating the UTF-8 to Big5. Generic compression methods need some data to adapt to, and so only get efficient after a certain time. But then on small emails, the headers are dominant (and in most headers, ASCII is dominant). >Note that there may be lots of other reasons to transmit body >parts in Big5 (or GB or Shift-JIS or...), but I suggest that >transmission or storage efficiency will rarely be one of them. No Shift-JIS for email, except occasionally for spam and the like. Japanese email uses iso-2022-jp traditionally (and lately, more and more, UTF-8). Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 12:11:27 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D96053A685C; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:11:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCB2E3A685C for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:11:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sgcLSFQbAlPK for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (maila.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 066AA3A681F for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:11:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.188) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:11:44 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.39]) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.188]) with mapi; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:11:44 -0700 From: Shawn Steele To: "ima@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:11:42 -0700 Thread-Topic: IMA Digest, Vol 37, Issue 7 Thread-Index: AcjjiJeHBvx3CgRPQVyLa2gWRCHssQAABsdw Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [EAI] IMA Digest, Vol 37, Issue 7 X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org > That's what I doubted: An EAI-aware MUA can of course handle UTF-8, > and hopefully the user of this MUA finds an e-mail service provider > with EAI-aware MSA / IMAP / POP3. But this user might still have > friends with less capable MUAs and service providers, or use mailing > lists and newsgroups where UTF-8 is not yet the norm. In that case it still needs downgrading or the friends are going to see mojibake for their friend's e-mail address. > On my box characters in code page 437, 819, 850, 858, 878, 923, 1252, and > others are *guaranteed* to work, encoded as UTF-8 or in various > "legacy" charsets. That's likely not completely true. The characters are likely supported, however it is likely that improperly tagged data can reach your machine and be interpreted with the wrong code page. For example, its likely that if someone passes you ISO 8859-1 text that your machine will decode it with 1252, leading to subtle differences. This gets worse if you use some of the CJK encodings since the extensions aren't consistently adopted, and there are encoding errors in some implementations. So then even when 2 machines *think* they're talking about the same code page they may corrupt actual code points. Even on a single windows box, a native mail client, an MLang based client, and a .Net client could all end up with slightly different behaviors due to code page variations. - Shawn _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 13:30:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 132E83A681F; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:30:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D33D3A681F for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:30:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kYGnqewwCBN8 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vgateway.libertyrms.info (vgateway.libertyrms.info [207.219.45.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C43E3A6801 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dev19.int.libertyrms.com ([10.1.3.136]) by vgateway.libertyrms.info with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1KHPGT-0005E8-Tq; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:30:49 -0400 Message-ID: <4877C388.4060406@ca.afilias.info> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:33:12 -0400 From: Ernie Dainow User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (X11/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Ellermann References: In-Reply-To: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: edainow@ca.afilias.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] Body parts X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Frank Ellermann wrote: > Shawn Steele wrote: > > >>> a "you SHOULD do the obvious" norm does not really help, or does it ? >>> > > >> I think it does. EAI requires that the client software understand >> UTF-8 (otherwise From: and To: look stupid), so any application >> must therefore be able to handle UTF-8 in the body as well. >> > > That's what I doubted: An EAI-aware MUA can of course handle UTF-8, > and hopefully the user of this MUA finds an e-mail service provider > with EAI-aware MSA / IMAP / POP3. But this user might still have > friends with less capable MUAs and service providers, or use mailing > lists and newsgroups where UTF-8 is not yet the norm. > > A technical SHOULD trying to modify netiquette would make me nervous. > Limited to "SHOULD be the default" it is acceptable, this could be > added to the eai-scenarios and/or eai-email-clients draft. > > Section 4 in the eai-email-clients draft recommends UTF-8 as the default for new mail and the same character encoding as received mail for reply/forward. However since this document is informational only, recommendations are not as strong as SHOULD in a normative document. Ernie _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jul 11 14:29:49 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D53133A69A0; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:29:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A8393A69A0 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:29:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.157 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.157 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.560, BAYES_00=-2.599, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=3.196, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gj0hr9v3Tmsl for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:29:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD2FA3A6961 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1KHQBm-0008OP-6J for ima@ietf.org; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 21:30:02 +0000 Received: from rain.gmane.org ([80.91.229.7]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 21:30:02 +0000 Received: from hmdmhdfmhdjmzdtjmzdtzktdkztdjz by rain.gmane.org with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 2008 21:30:02 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ima@ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 23:30:27 +0200 Organization: Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <4877C388.4060406@ca.afilias.info> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.gmane.org X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 Subject: Re: [EAI] Body parts X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Ernie Dainow wrote: > Section 4 in the eai-email-clients draft recommends UTF-8 as the > default for new mail and the same character encoding as received > mail for reply/forward. Yes, maybe s/should/SHOULD/ in this paragraph... > since this document is informational only, recommendations are > not as strong as SHOULD in a normative document. ...aim higher, and you won't "SHOULD" in your own foot. ;-) Frank _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 12 05:00:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0484F3A6A30; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 05:00:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 224A328C16B for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 05:00:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m3v+0f2kSgrh for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 05:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 337FC3A67A6 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 05:00:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1KHdmd-00038L-IT for ima@ietf.org; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:00:59 +0000 Received: from dslb-088-065-202-193.pools.arcor-ip.net ([88.65.202.193]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:00:59 +0000 Received: from GMANE by dslb-088-065-202-193.pools.arcor-ip.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:00:59 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ima@ietf.org From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus_F=E4rber?= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:00:43 +0200 Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: dslb-088-065-202-193.pools.arcor-ip.net User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [EAI] Body parts X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Shawn Steele schrieb: > The presumed savings isn't actually very much. Add an attachment, > jpg, html encoding or whatnot and the "savings" will be lost in the > noise. I concede that it might be interesting for a satellite text > message or something where the bandwidth is amazingly poor, however > that could be handled by the device's portal/gateway. If bandwith really is a problem, use compression. I guess the charset does not matter so much with deflated text. (However, that's an educated guess; data would be nice.) Claus _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 12 08:57:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF0943A68E6; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 08:57:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F8F43A68E6 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 08:57:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cCUtycQhNsYL for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 08:57:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CFC23A6898 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 08:57:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C79AA4AC7B for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:58:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 195.30.37.40 (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1215878279-53639-2522; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:57:59 +0200 Message-Id: <1mUzQrZt2reiIBTq8WTZ/w.md5@lochnagar.oryx.com> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:55:44 +0200 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: ima@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [EAI] Body parts X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Claus F=E4rber writes: > Shawn Steele schrieb: >> The presumed savings isn't actually very much. Add an attachment, = >> jpg, html encoding or whatnot and the "savings" will be lost in the = >> noise. I concede that it might be interesting for a satellite text = >> message or something where the bandwidth is amazingly poor, however = >> that could be handled by the device's portal/gateway. > > If bandwith really is a problem, use compression. I guess the charset = > does not matter so much with deflated text. (However, that's an = > educated guess; data would be nice.) I didn't keep the data, but I did play around and measure things when I = wrote RFC 4978, and my experience is that it makes a difference. Deflate (like almost all other compression algorithms) want to see the = atom. If it's compressing graphics, it wants to see the pixels or = whatnot. If it's compressing text, it wants to see the characters. In = deflate's case, it assumes that a file-format atom has some relation to = octets, and works with octets. If you send big5 with c-t-e 8bit, then deflate will see a series of = half-characters, which is less good than seeing a series of characters, = but still, there's a plain enough relationship that deflate's = assumption works well. If you send the same text as utf-8 with c-t-e = 8bit, it sees thirds of characters, which is almost as good as seeing = half-characters. But people don't send c-t-e 8bit. They send a lot of q-p or base64, both = of which obfuscate the data. If deflate is told to compress big5 with = c-t-e base64, its first input oftet encodes 37.5% of a character, the = second 37.5% more and the third the last 25% of the character with and = 12.5% of the next character. It goes on like that. A character is = encoded in three different ways depending on where it is in the stream. = Q-p obfuscates differently, but the effect is comparable. UTF-8+base64 happens to be better than big5, for the poor reason that = its three-byte characters match one four-byte base64 group. There's = less obfuscation than in the case of big5. HOWEVER. I didn't bother doing anything like 4978 for SMTP or = Submission, because I think that wouldn't be worth the bother. IMO = there isn't any simple change with a large benefit. Arnt _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 12 14:37:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DBCC3A68E6; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:37:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C32BF3A68E6 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:37:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9OF1AaObL7Gc for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:37:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5EBD3A6837 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:38:05 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.39]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:38:05 -0700 From: Shawn Steele To: "ima@ietf.org" Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:38:04 -0700 Thread-Topic: Body parts Thread-Index: AcjkUZY19L4NA9SXTxyezqsCloOgKQAFUxHg Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [EAI] Body parts X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org > But people don't send c-t-e 8bit. They send a lot of q-p or base64, both > of which obfuscate the data. Part of my hope was that they'd be 8 bit aware and not need base64. I'm also hoping to recommend UTF-8 not to save space, but to reduce some ambiguity about encodings. In practice transmissions often loose encoding information and end up with some scrambled characters. - Shawn _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 12 16:54:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20AFA28C1CE; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:54:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0CCD28C1CE for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:54:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.774 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.774 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.175, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 67ZnWgBGYzmK for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A8B828C1AC for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=p3.JCK.COM) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1KHovq-000Pyf-An; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 19:55:14 -0400 Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 19:55:13 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Shawn Steele , ima@ietf.org Message-ID: <1BBF51B2B05A27464FF3BBBD@p3.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: [EAI] Body parts X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org --On Saturday, 12 July, 2008 14:38 -0700 Shawn Steele wrote: >> But people don't send c-t-e 8bit. They send a lot of q-p or >> base64, both of which obfuscate the data. > > Part of my hope was that they'd be 8 bit aware and not need > base64. I'm also hoping to recommend UTF-8 not to save space, > but to reduce some ambiguity about encodings. In practice > transmissions often loose encoding information and end up with > some scrambled characters. Shawn, Really? Your data collection sources obviously differ from mine, but my impression is that we've seen very little transmission loss or confusion in the last 10 or 15 years, at least among MIME-conformant implementations that follow the rules. And many of the places where those losses actually show up turn out to be among systems that either advertise 8BITMIME but not support it, decide to send 8 bit data despite not getting that announcement, or send MIME content-type information and file names that are inconsistent with each other. We also used to have a lot of problems with slight incompatibilities among various flavors of UUENCODE, but it has been a long time since I've seen any significant number of those. For at least those classes of problems, sending UTF-8 directly runs much more risk of data loss than Q-P or Base64 (although local forms like Big5 are probably no better). john _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 12 21:41:42 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AF483A68FD; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:41:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79FAB3A68FD for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:41:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.403 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.403 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.196, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, SARE_UNSUB30=0.351, SARE_UNSUB30B=0.041] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t5SDBN6Um-T0 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:41:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBEC63A63CB for ; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:42:02 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.39]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:42:02 -0700 From: Shawn Steele To: John C Klensin , "ima@ietf.org" Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:41:57 -0700 Thread-Topic: [EAI] Body parts Thread-Index: Acjker6yWu+YmeyYTnS6Vo8Oid381QAJiz8Q Message-ID: References: <1BBF51B2B05A27464FF3BBBD@p3.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: <1BBF51B2B05A27464FF3BBBD@p3.JCK.COM> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [EAI] Body parts X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org > Really? Your data collection sources obviously differ from > mine, but my impression is that we've seen very little > transmission loss or confusion in the last 10 or 15 years, at > least among MIME-conformant implementations that follow the > rules. Well, of course if they all play well it should work :) The Unicode list gets mail fairly regularly that someone complains they couldn't read :) Remember that I'm suggesting this for apps advertising UTF8STMP, so there *should* be no loss of data by complying applications, since presumably they'd all be designed correctly. For the misbehaving ones, as you pointed out there's already a problem. I hear 99% of the code page related issues within Microsoft, and I've encountered difficulties with code pages from Hotmail, Live Mail, Exchange & Outlook. Many of those are probably when receiving mail without proper MIME content-type information. Other causes seem to be varying code page implementations between the sender & recipient &/or different interpretations of the standards or code page names. Obviously recommending UTF-8 can't stop mail clients from doing the wrong thing, but if we could recommend a course that moves towards a single encoding, then the entire encoding-related class of issues should eventually start doing better. As someone mentioned UTF-8 is being adopted by more mail clients, but it can't hurt to inspire people to support UTF-8. FWIW: Mark Davis was happy to show that UTF-8 is now the most common web encoding. http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/05/utf8-web-growth.html Sure, web isn't mail, but it does reflect a general trend. - Shawn _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 13 00:23:27 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0C383A6975; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 00:23:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52C7D3A6974 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 00:23:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ftR7oDEqDHYn for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 00:23:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (kalyani.oryx.com [195.30.37.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CD533A68BA for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 00:23:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalyani.oryx.com (localhost.oryx.com [127.0.0.1]) by kalyani.oryx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2AF44AC6C for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:23:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from 195.30.37.40 (HELO lochnagar.oryx.com) by kalyani.oryx.com with esmtp id 1215933814-53639-2815; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:23:34 +0200 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:21:20 +0200 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: ima@ietf.org References: <1BBF51B2B05A27464FF3BBBD@p3.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: <1BBF51B2B05A27464FF3BBBD@p3.JCK.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [EAI] Body parts X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org John C Klensin writes: > ... send MIME content-type information and file names that are > inconsistent with each other. Or content-type information which doesn't describe the charset(s) actually used. In my experience (I get to analyze those things when they arrive, and guess what happened at the sender) it happens when two pieces of software don't talk to each other enough. Consider typical webmail: A browser delivers the body text and some header fields, some advertising system delivers a spamfooter, and the webmail backend makes the rest of the header and glues it all together. Lots of opportunities for misunderstanding. IMO a UTF8SMTP would make things worse, not better, since there would be one more thing to get wrong. Arnt _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 13 02:20:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35BA13A6868; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 02:20:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBB693A6923 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 02:20:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.439 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.439 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.440, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_71=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id se1XiBPy72Hj for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 02:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D037B3A6868 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 02:20:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=p3.JCK.COM) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1KHxku-000J8d-3Y; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 05:20:32 -0400 Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 05:20:30 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Arnt Gulbrandsen , ima@ietf.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <1BBF51B2B05A27464FF3BBBD@p3.JCK.COM> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: [EAI] Body parts X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org --On Sunday, 13 July, 2008 09:21 +0200 Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > John C Klensin writes: >> ... send MIME content-type information and file names that >> are inconsistent with each other. > > Or content-type information which doesn't describe the > charset(s) actually used. My intent was to cover that case too without going into great detail. But you are, of course, correct. > In my experience (I get to analyze > those things when they arrive, and guess what happened at the > sender) it happens when two pieces of software don't talk to > each other enough. Consider typical webmail: A browser > delivers the body text and some header fields, some > advertising system delivers a spamfooter, and the webmail > backend makes the rest of the header and glues it all > together. Lots of opportunities for misunderstanding. Indeed. The problem is aggravated by something else, which has turned out to be one of the bigger problems in handling international character sets in MIME: Suppose someone sends a message in charset X to a user whose environment is normally set up for charset Y. That second user is able to read messages marked as being in charset X (which isn't always true). But, if the second user then excerpts a piece of the message and replies, the reply typically goes out in charset Y, especially if some of the second user's characters are needed in the reply. In general, unless Y is UTF-8, whatever happens next is bad news -- the message goes out labeled as charset=Y, it contains some characters that are really in charset X, but the MUA belonging to the recipient of the reply has no clue about what is going on and the original characters are displayed as trash, even if that recipient is perfectly capable of handling charset X. It may be that we should have including charset-switching tags in enriched text, but that format is so little used (as a percentage of total legitimate messages sent) that it might have made little difference. The problem will presumably go away as more and more of us switch to UTF-8, but that doesn't seem to be happening quickly... and I don't see a changed default in a standard as accelerating it very much, even if we were in a position to do that. > IMO a UTF8SMTP would make things worse, not better, since > there would be one more thing to get wrong. Maybe. On the other hand, the drafts permit one, and only one, charset to be used in headers and that is UTF-8. There is no mechanism to say "my headers are really in Slobbovian Alphabet 4" and that omission is deliberate. So we won't have problems of someone identifying one charset and sending another, headers with mixed charsets, etc. While I believe it will be some years before we can formally deprecate all of the sundry [older] methods for encoding non-ASCII characters into headers, I do think that, if and when those standards are updated, it is time to attach a "SHOULD use encoded UTF-8 and UTF-8 only" to them, which would be, IMO, a big step in the right direction. But _any_ extension, to anything, creates more opportunities for the careless, stupid, or malicious to get things wrong. It is the price one pays. john _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 13 06:52:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 352B73A682A; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 06:52:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 637FF3A682A for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 06:52:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KUr-f6aj4RmR for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 06:52:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns1.qubic.net (ns1.qubic.net [208.69.177.116]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A65933A67AB for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 06:52:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from subman.resistor.net ([10.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by ns1.qubic.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id m6DDqKwR005491 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 06:52:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=resistor.net; s=mail; t=1215957151; x=1216043551; bh=2UQgiRLMgQ6d6CMSM24ctwFOe/rs0FYWFYup 0ew5ZBA=; h=Message-Id:Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References: Mime-Version:Content-Type:Cc; b=SEwlVdz4W4Bq4oFDdpdE9AsVgpDtEXMpqk mn1V/elRyJhp2SNQCwMXTB7tZkp6yWZ6NAAjRmj7DeB06CQnUpCb1UMNIGNlYNR/9dx sMbYq3ffi9uMF4rUS6JZ5HkKq7utfgvcUpZY227PMrYNCP2oDn3Pgcza+X1v67wJHe4 wG8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=mail; d=resistor.net; c=simple; q=dns; b=sG7y4Bjyjo+IuFqTPyww0eL9oaNZiYORYn2UqqCPJU7gkvXohAYHXWg3C+kQPRaSl fTH77eBlqLakTQ/s/zxVd06HNMnwJTovOa/XOO9fOvqPhRmfIqpXAlF/OMbPxc0oqmt aUKHvwesa8vHlpdOV7Wg8bxpR2u/7ui3R9LTJFk= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20080713062422.02f625b0@resistor.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 06:52:02 -0700 To: ima@ietf.org From: SM In-Reply-To: References: <1BBF51B2B05A27464FF3BBBD@p3.JCK.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [EAI] Body parts X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org At 21:41 12-07-2008, Shawn Steele wrote: >FWIW: Mark Davis was happy to show that UTF-8 is now the most common >web encoding. http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/05/utf8-web-growth.html >Sure, web isn't mail, but it does reflect a general trend. That's because the web server implementations moved to using UTF-8 as the default. It went unnoticed as the web browsers support it. There are problems such as when non-UTF-8 content is served as UTF-8. In the mail world, it's the reverse; UTF-8 content rendered as non-UTF-8 by legacy MUAs. Regards, -sm _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 13 10:12:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C0953A6990; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:12:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EA6A3A6990 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:12:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.47 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.47 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.263, BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_UNSUB30=0.351, SARE_UNSUB30B=0.041] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EpW77qNyOxDL for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6988D3A6827 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=p3.JCK.COM) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1KI58H-0000do-Ht; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 13:13:09 -0400 Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 13:13:08 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Shawn Steele , ima@ietf.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <1BBF51B2B05A27464FF3BBBD@p3.JCK.COM> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: [EAI] Body parts X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Shawn, I think this is out of scope for the WG so, until Harald or XiaoDong tell me otherwise, I'm going to try to make this my last note on the subject (or take it off list). But... --On Saturday, 12 July, 2008 21:41 -0700 Shawn Steele wrote: >> Really? Your data collection sources obviously differ from >> mine, but my impression is that we've seen very little >> transmission loss or confusion in the last 10 or 15 years, at >> least among MIME-conformant implementations that follow the >> rules. > > Well, of course if they all play well it should work :) > > The Unicode list gets mail fairly regularly that someone > complains they couldn't read :) >From when I was trying to follow that list, as well as general experience, I would suggest that the origin of most of those problems are not ones in which the content-type and associated charset parameter match the actual content of the message. They are because a sending MUA (or web interface configuration) has a default charset label that it applies, one that isn't UTF-8 or because the type of copying and pasting that I described in my note to Arnt has occurred (most often just by quoting all or part of a reply). > Remember that I'm suggesting this for apps advertising > UTF8STMP, so there *should* be no loss of data by complying > applications, since presumably they'd all be designed > correctly. For the misbehaving ones, as you pointed out > there's already a problem. Actually, the fact that a particular app can handle UTF-8 for headers is not really a sufficient condition given the way may mail systems are organized. If a system receives mail in one charset and format, and the user wants to paste part of its contents into another message, ability to convert that character set to UTF-8 and do so at the right point is required, not merely the ability to render both charsets. And the "at the right point" part is significant too, as our documents on the use of POP and IMAP with UTF8 headers and envelopes demonstrate. > I hear 99% of the code page related issues within Microsoft, > and I've encountered difficulties with code pages from > Hotmail, Live Mail, Exchange & Outlook. Many of those are > probably when receiving mail without proper MIME content-type > information. Of course, historically, some of those systems have been among the worst offenders about not properly identifying the charsets, code pages, and file types they are sending out. > Other causes seem to be varying code page > implementations between the sender & recipient &/or different > interpretations of the standards or code page names. Possibly, but I've seen symptoms of that far less than the above. > Obviously recommending UTF-8 can't stop mail clients from > doing the wrong thing, but if we could recommend a course that > moves towards a single encoding, then the entire > encoding-related class of issues should eventually start doing > better. As someone mentioned UTF-8 is being adopted by more > mail clients, but it can't hurt to inspire people to support > UTF-8. I hate to say "cleaning up your own house would make more difference than anything the IETF could do", but, if it were made very difficult to transmit anything textual from, e.g., Outlook (both current and, via service packs, back to at least to the 2003 version) in other than UTF-8, with content-type fields (including the charset parameter) and file name fields all consistent with the UTF-8 being transmitted, I'd guess a large fraction of the problem would disappear in a fairly short time. On the other hand, if we "merely" change the Standard, I note that one major MUA with a very long history still does not handle MIME properly (it uses an "attachment" model rather than a "body part" one, leading to both subtle and gross problems) and that the contemporary version of Office doesn't precisely follow the standard or encourage users strongly enough to configure systems to do so (e.g., too many things sent as application/octet-stream who identity is perfectly well know to the Operating System). > FWIW: Mark Davis was happy to show that UTF-8 is now the most > common web encoding. > http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/05/utf8-web-growth.html Sure, web > isn't mail, but it does reflect a general trend. See SM's note. john _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 13 10:40:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B12E3A6870; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:40:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF2393A6870 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:40:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.571 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.571 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.028, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i8kI4k-C-gN8 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 026D33A6827 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.251.2; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:40:53 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C116.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.39]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:40:53 -0700 From: Shawn Steele To: John C Klensin , "ima@ietf.org" Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:40:51 -0700 Thread-Topic: [EAI] Body parts Thread-Index: AcjlC8EwNs5ZmCHTRdu05/XjttOOqAAAvj9A Message-ID: References: <1BBF51B2B05A27464FF3BBBD@p3.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [EAI] Body parts X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org I guess the WG scope doesn't include the body, but it does include UTF-8 :) > I hate to say "cleaning up your own house would make more > difference than anything the IETF could do" Unfortunately its not "our own house" that's the entire problem, but rather interoperability with software from a large number of other vendors. > if it were made very difficult to transmit anything textual from, e.g., > Outlook (both current and, via service packs, back to at least to the 2003 version) in other than UTF-8... My understanding is that we did that once, and the Japanese market reacted strongly because (my understanding) the cell phone industry was stuck with shift-jis. So I would like it to be included that ALL clients need to support UTF-8, otherwise we can't move forward. I can't speak to the accuracy of our tagging, however I do know we've experienced incompatibilities with the JIS extensions, for data nominally in the same code page. - Shawn _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 13 15:15:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CF3D3A69DC; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:15:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@ietf.org Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 4EB6F3A68EF; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:15:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20080713221501.4EB6F3A68EF@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: [EAI] I-D Action:draft-ietf-eai-pop-04.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Email Address Internationalization Working Group of the IETF. Title : POP3 Support for UTF-8 Author(s) : C. Newman, R. Gellens Filename : draft-ietf-eai-pop-04.txt Pages : 14 Date : 2008-07-13 This specification extends the Post Office Protocol version 3 (POP3) to support un-encoded international characters in user names, passwords, mail addresses, message headers, and protocol-level textual error strings. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eai-pop-04.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-eai-pop-04.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-07-13151106.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima --NextPart-- From ima-bounces@ietf.org Sun Jul 13 15:51:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 340143A69EA; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:51:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17CE93A69EA for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:51:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YQXhXv8bivWk for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sasl.smtp.pobox.com (a-sasl-quonix.sasl.smtp.pobox.com [208.72.237.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F0DC3A69DC for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by a-sasl-quonix.sasl.smtp.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A96202AE62; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:51:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (ip68-107-60-165.sd.sd.cox.net [68.107.60.165]) by a-sasl-quonix.sasl.smtp.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id DED9A2AE61; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:51:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:51:18 -0700 From: Bill McQuillan X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <936261676.20080713155118@pobox.com> To: IMA Discussion In-Reply-To: <20080713221501.4EB6F3A68EF@core3.amsl.com> References: <20080713221501.4EB6F3A68EF@core3.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Pobox-Relay-ID: 372A3E7A-512E-11DD-B90B-3113EBD4C077-02871704!a-sasl-quonix.pobox.com Subject: Re: [EAI] I-D Action:draft-ietf-eai-pop-04.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org In the LANG examples, I noticed an oddity: < A LANG command with no arguments is a request for a language listing. > C: LANG S: +OK Language listing follows: S: en English S: en-boont English Boontling dialect S: de German S: it Italian S: i-default Default language S: . I would have expected 3rd and 4th response lines to be: S: de Deutsch S: it italiano This raises the issue of what language should the "human readable description of that language" be in. I could imagine: 1 - the server's preferred language 2 - the language itself 3 - i-default 4 - the current language Since the "human" most likely to read the "description" is the user trying to find a language s/he understands, I vote for #2. Also #4 might be combinatorily difficult. ;-) -- Bill McQuillan _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 14 01:30:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9E8C3A685E; Mon, 14 Jul 2008 01:30:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@ietf.org Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 74F673A685E; Mon, 14 Jul 2008 01:30:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20080714083001.74F673A685E@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 01:30:01 -0700 (PDT) Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: [EAI] I-D Action:draft-ietf-eai-downgrade-08.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Email Address Internationalization Working Group of the IETF. Title : Downgrading mechanism for Email Address Internationalization Author(s) : K. Fujiwara, Y. Yoneya Filename : draft-ietf-eai-downgrade-08.txt Pages : 25 Date : 2008-07-14 Traditional mail systems handle only ASCII characters in SMTP envelope and mail header fields. The Email Address Internationalization (UTF8SMTP) extension allows UTF-8 characters in SMTP envelope and mail header fields. To avoid rejecting internationalized Email messages when a server in the delivery path does not support the UTF8SMTP extension, some sort of converting mechanism is required. This document describes a downgrading mechanism for Email Address Internationalization. Note that this is a way to downgrade, not tunnel. There is no associated up-conversion mechanism, although internationalized email clients might use original internationalized addresses or other data when displaying or replying to downgraded messages. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eai-downgrade-08.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-eai-downgrade-08.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-07-14011646.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima --NextPart-- From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 15 04:42:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB6213A68B5; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 04:42:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9C3C3A68EB for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 04:42:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.734 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.734 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.352, BAYES_05=-1.11, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=3.196, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J5fj9KvWJtpG for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 04:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD9F63A68B5 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 04:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1KIivt-000466-NL for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:43:01 +0000 Received: from rain.gmane.org ([80.91.229.7]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:43:01 +0000 Received: from hmdmhdfmhdjmzdtjmzdtzktdkztdjz by rain.gmane.org with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:43:01 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ima@ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:43:20 +0200 Organization: Lines: 7 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.gmane.org X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 Subject: [EAI] SPF-EAI-02 X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Hi, for info, there's a new I-D.ellermann-spf-eai referencing UTF8SMTP, utf8headers, EAI DSNs, and 2821bis. Frank -- _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 17 18:46:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1049D28C178; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 18:46:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@ietf.org Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id 9E80A28C165; Thu, 17 Jul 2008 18:46:00 -0700 (PDT) X-idtracker: yes From: The IESG To: IETF-Announce Message-Id: <20080718014600.9E80A28C165@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 18:46:00 -0700 (PDT) Cc: Internet Architecture Board , eai mailing list , eai chair , RFC Editor Subject: [EAI] Document Action: 'SMTP extension for internationalized email address' to Experimental RFC X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org The IESG has approved the following documents: - 'Internationalized Email Headers ' as an Experimental RFC - 'SMTP extension for internationalized email address ' as an Experimental RFC These documents are products of the Email Address Internationalization Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Chris Newman and Lisa Dusseault. A URL of this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eai-smtpext-13.txt Technical Summary These two documents form the core specification for an extension to SMTP and RFC 2822 that allow the use of UTF-8 in message headers without encoding. This includes the use of non-ASCII characters in email addresses, both on the left and right hand sides of the @ character. Working Group Summary The WG was chartered to explore one particular approach to email internationalization, and succeeded in keeping to that charter. There was extensive discussion of one particular design choice - on which MIME type to use. Document Quality The documents have been extensively reviewed by people with mail expertise. There have been reports of implementations, but no interoperability tests have been reported to date. Note to RFC Editor The document draft-ietf-eai-utf8headers-12.txt has a number of English grammar issues and may require extensive editorial work, please plan accordingly. draft-ietf-eai-utf8headers-12.txt header, please add: Updates: RFC2045, 2822 _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 26 03:58:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F324E3A6A86; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 03:57:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D4B93A6A86 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 03:57:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.274 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.274 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.325, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V+MlubeGDjPJ for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 03:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 386203A6A5C for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 03:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61C1739E06A; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 12:57:48 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P7nkefwmyZT5; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 12:57:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [172.28.60.80] (unknown [195.18.164.170]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4CE739E063; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 12:57:47 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <488B0338.4020909@alvestrand.no> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 12:58:00 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.14ubu (X11/20080502) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand References: <48715A93.1030207@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <48715A93.1030207@alvestrand.no> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------010000060604060004050901" Cc: EAI WG Subject: Re: [EAI] Agenda for Dublin X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010000060604060004050901 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have updated the agenda to reflect: - New version numbers of drafts (thanks folks!) - Added "advice" to the agenda point on "implementation experience", and included reference to draft-dainow-eai-email-clients-00 This is now the final agenda (until the agenda bashing begins on Monday). See you there! Harald --------------010000060604060004050901 Content-Type: text/plain; name="dublin-agenda.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="dublin-agenda.txt" Email Address Internationalization (EAI) Agenda Meeting: IETF 72, Dublin Date and time: Monday, July 28, 1740-1950 Place: Newcastle room Chairs: Harald Alvestrand , Xiaodong Lee Version: 1.1 ---------------------------------------------------- 1740 - Scribe, blue sheet, agenda bashing 1750 - Status report on core documents (hopefully "they have been approved") Documents: draft-ietf-eai-smtpext-13.txt draft-ietf-eai-utf8headers-12.txt draft-ietf-eai-dsn-06.txt 1805 - Review of Last Call comments and last version of -downgrade Hopefully, we can send this to the IESG without more changes. Documents: draft-ietf-eai-downgrade-08.txt 1815 - POP and IMAP documents Documents: draft-ietf-eai-imap-utf8-03.txt draft-ietf-eai-pop-04.txt 1830 - Mailinglist Documents: draft-ietf-eai-mailinglist-03.txt 1845 - Status of implementations, implementation advice Documents draft-dainow-eai-email-clients-00.txt 1915 - Future work, next steps, new charter 1940 - Summary of decisions, action items 1950 - End of meeting --------------010000060604060004050901 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima --------------010000060604060004050901-- From ima-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 26 04:43:52 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D9928C160; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 04:43:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F40728C142 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 04:43:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.382 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.382 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.217, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WwNCADqqcj46 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 04:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E3A728C165 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 04:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9D8E39E06A for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 13:43:41 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at eikenes.alvestrand.no Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GNylWjN-tq63 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 13:43:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [172.28.60.80] (unknown [195.18.164.170]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6161339E063 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 13:43:41 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <488B0DF9.8020903@alvestrand.no> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 13:43:53 +0200 From: Harald Alvestrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.14ubu (X11/20080502) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: EAI WG Subject: [EAI] Approval of our documents X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org I'm not sure everyone noticed.... as of July 18, 2008, the IESG has approved the smtpext and utf8headers documents, thus formally finishing the "core documents" (DSN was approved on July 3). They are now in the RFC Editor's queue, and will hopefully be published shortly. Thanks to all who contributed to this excellent result! Harald _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jul 26 05:41:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 318E53A6A60; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 05:41:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AFA93A6A5D for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 05:41:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.09 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UDcUJZrIp9bP for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 05:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from send01.jprs.co.jp (send01.jprs.co.jp [202.11.17.113]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4115F3A6852 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 05:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from send01.jprs.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by send01.jprs.co.jp (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.11) with SMTP id m6QCfTaA017686; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 21:41:29 +0900 (JST) Received: (from localhost [172.18.4.57]) by send01.jprs.co.jp (SMSSMTP 4.0.4.64) with SMTP id M2008072621412806741 ; Sat, 26 Jul 2008 21:41:28 +0900 Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 21:41:28 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20080726.214128.15227651.fujiwara@jprs.co.jp> To: harald@alvestrand.no From: fujiwara@jprs.co.jp In-Reply-To: <488B0338.4020909@alvestrand.no> References: <48715A93.1030207@alvestrand.no> <488B0338.4020909@alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.1 on Emacs 22.1 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] Agenda for Dublin X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Hi, Sorry, I missed checking the agenda list. draft-fujiwara-eai-downgraded-display-00.txt is missing in the recent agenda. Regards, -- Kazunori Fujiwara, JPRS > From: Harald Alvestrand > I have updated the agenda to reflect: > > - New version numbers of drafts (thanks folks!) > - Added "advice" to the agenda point on "implementation experience", and included reference to draft-dainow-eai-email-clients-00 > > This is now the final agenda (until the agenda bashing begins on Monday). > See you there! > > Harald > _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 28 06:59:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFD2D3A68B8; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:59:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07F3C3A69B9 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:59:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xr67tLA4FOxe for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:59:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine02.qualcomm.com (wolverine02.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7847E3A6839 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:59:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=randy@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1217253575; x=1248789575; h=message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer: x-message-flag:date:to:from:subject:content-type: x-random-sig-tag:x-ironport-av; z=Message-Id:=20 |In-Reply-To:=20<936261676.20080713155118@pobox.com> |References:=20<20080713221501.4EB6F3A68EF@core3.amsl.com >=0D=0A=20<936261676.20080713155118@pobox.com>|X-Mailer: =20Eudora=20for=20Mac=20OS=20X|X-message-flag:=20Warning: =20Outlook=20in=20use.=20=20Upgrade=20to=20Eudora:=20|Date:=20Mon,=2028=20Jul=202008=2006:5 7:07=20-0700|To:=20Bill=20McQuillan=20,=20IMA=20Discussion=20|From:=20Randall=20 Gellens=20|Subject:=20Re:=20[EAI]=20I -D=20Action:draft-ietf-eai-pop-04.txt|Content-Type:=20tex t/plain=3B=20charset=3D"us-ascii"=20=3B=20format=3D"flowe d"|X-Random-Sig-Tag:=201.0b28|X-IronPort-AV:=20E=3DMcAfee =3Bi=3D"5200,2160,5347"=3B=20a=3D"4934038"; bh=wMqNZVcjE6nA4tayiuNEETlIvDYTgYxccp2GuMA5v68=; b=NBrbuJZ4QdpdH50+6pnUHXH2pE21Yo4yFbEMRqOiqRSVZeWxvUawPZWb fiuxXLxHCv41JoQN6MqZxJp4IAA0ujV3pVlxkQFIxeTLyk2H20hrCjzYr X4/2b0a3tuVwDMzf3yaCjzbIWyvpG/HIueOtq6a+xFrl8MXWLb20w0pql 8=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5200,2160,5347"; a="4934038" Received: from pdmz-ns-mip.qualcomm.com (HELO ithilien.qualcomm.com) ([199.106.114.10]) by wolverine02.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 28 Jul 2008 06:59:29 -0700 Received: from hamtaro.qualcomm.com (hamtaro.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.157]) by ithilien.qualcomm.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/1.0) with ESMTP id m6SDxTXd014996 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:59:29 -0700 Received: from [130.129.20.99] (vpn-10-50-0-191.qualcomm.com [10.50.0.191]) by hamtaro.qualcomm.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/1.0) with ESMTP id m6SDxGgS025213; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:59:28 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <936261676.20080713155118@pobox.com> References: <20080713221501.4EB6F3A68EF@core3.amsl.com> <936261676.20080713155118@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X X-message-flag: Warning: Outlook in use. Upgrade to Eudora: Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 06:57:07 -0700 To: Bill McQuillan , IMA Discussion From: Randall Gellens Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 Subject: Re: [EAI] I-D Action:draft-ietf-eai-pop-04.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org At 3:51 PM -0700 7/13/08, Bill McQuillan wrote: > In the LANG examples, I noticed an oddity: > > < A LANG command with no arguments is a request for > a language listing. > > > C: LANG > S: +OK Language listing follows: > S: en English > S: en-boont English Boontling dialect > S: de German > S: it Italian > S: i-default Default language > S: . > > I would have expected 3rd and 4th response lines to be: > > S: de Deutsch > S: it italiano > > This raises the issue of what language should the "human readable > description of that language" be in. > > I could imagine: > > 1 - the server's preferred language > 2 - the language itself > 3 - i-default > 4 - the current language > > Since the "human" most likely to read the "description" is the user trying > to find a language s/he understands, I vote for #2. > > Also #4 might be combinatorily difficult. ;-) Hi Bill, Good to see you still active in this stuff. This is a good point, and one I'm inclined to agree with. The text already says that the language listing uses UTF-8. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly-selected tag: --------------- Perhaps the real reason why we have always been able to champion free speech in this country is that we know perfectly well that hardly anybody has got anything to say, and that no one will listen to anyone that has. -- Editorial, Daily Mail [British Paper, date unknown] _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 28 08:03:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 607DB3A6ABA; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:03:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7559F3A6ACC for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:03:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.855 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.855 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.744, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZeHl8UxDVkIn for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-1.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-1.gradwell.net [79.135.125.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 274133A6892 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 08:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster$pop3*clerew&man&ac*uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-1.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 488ddfb5.a4f.629 for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 16:03:17 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m6SF3Fe6016732 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 16:03:17 +0100 (BST) To: IMA From: "Charles Lindsey" MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20080718014600.9E80A28C165@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 16:03:15 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.25 (SunOS) Subject: Re: [EAI] Document Action: 'SMTP extension for internationalized email address' to Experimental RFC X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"; DelSp="yes" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 02:46:00 +0100, The IESG wrote: > The IESG has approved the following documents: > > - 'Internationalized Email Headers ' > as an Experimental RFC > - 'SMTP extension for internationalized email address ' > as an Experimental RFC > > These documents are products of the Email Address Internationalization > Working Group. I find it a matter of regret that the IESG has published these documents in spite of my complaint that they were inconsistent with existing Draft Standards. It remains my opinion that the message/utf8smtp feature is a clear breach of RFC 2045, and that it will not interwork with the bulk of deployed current servers. -- = Charles=A0H.=A0Lindsey=A0---------At=A0Home,=A0doing=A0my=A0own=A0thing----= -------------------- Tel:=A0+44=A0161=A0436=A06131=A0 = =A0=A0=A0Web:=A0http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email:=A0chl@clerew.man.ac.uk=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Snail:=A05=A0Clerewood=A0Ave= ,=A0CHEADLE,=A0SK8=A03JU,=A0U.K. PGP:=A02C15F1A9=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Fingerprint:=A073=A06D=A0C2=A051=A093=A0A0= =A001=A0E7=A065=A0E8=A064=A07E=A014=A0A4=A0AB=A0A5 _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 28 10:37:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2F0728C21B; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:37:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B578128C21B for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:37:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mGSJIjZAz-nQ for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine02.qualcomm.com (wolverine02.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B400C28C1FA for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:37:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=randy@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1217266672; x=1248802672; h=message-id:x-mailer:x-message-flag:date:to:from:subject: content-type:x-random-sig-tag:x-ironport-av; z=Message-Id:=20 |X-Mailer:=20Eudora=20for=20Mac=20OS=20X|X-message-flag: =20Warning:=20Outlook=20in=20use.=20=20Upgrade=20to=20Eud ora:=20|Date:=20Mon,=2028=20Jul=20 2008=2010:34:57=20-0700|To:=20ima@ietf.org|From:=20Randal l=20Gellens=20|Subject:=20Proposed=20 resolution=20of=20List-*=20and=20downgrade-=20Issues |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3D"us-ascii"=20 =3B=20format=3D"flowed"|X-Random-Sig-Tag:=201.0b28 |X-IronPort-AV:=20E=3DMcAfee=3Bi=3D"5200,2160,5348"=3B=20 a=3D"4941279"; bh=8V35vOImQtfc6GNLcQvlgDDupmh5HR3Z2HrwoMuygmM=; b=kyC3TvBsNUge8yO/3idhRpsRjYz55Gs+9KLTWtZrfhe2xoW6CK1itxrU 28PtwmP8m3h0nt/MCfFPJ6CrfpwtWCdEenHiDimA1MzdzVvoENXYO0uv6 BL7qTSGgOa9g6q/1XUhdUpOF7An4T9ImHcDfdOvx6f5iwcASd7b64TQGH s=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5200,2160,5348"; a="4941279" Received: from pdmz-ns-mip.qualcomm.com (HELO numenor.qualcomm.com) ([199.106.114.10]) by wolverine02.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 28 Jul 2008 10:37:51 -0700 Received: from msgtransport02.qualcomm.com (msgtransport02.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.151]) by numenor.qualcomm.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/1.0) with ESMTP id m6SHbpPD010235 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:37:51 -0700 Received: from [130.129.20.99] (vpn-10-50-16-120.qualcomm.com [10.50.16.120]) by msgtransport02.qualcomm.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/1.0) with ESMTP id m6SHbmir023029 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:37:50 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X X-message-flag: Warning: Outlook in use. Upgrade to Eudora: Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 10:34:57 -0700 To: ima@ietf.org From: Randall Gellens Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 Subject: [EAI] Proposed resolution of List-* and downgrade- Issues X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org ---------------------------------------------- Proposed resolution of "List-*" headers: EAI to define new versions of List-* headers which can have unencoded UTF8 values. This is just a trivial revision of the current forms. Like the current forms, each header can have multiple IRI, URL, URL, etc. Note that this is orthogonal to new "mailto" -- when mailto-bis is ready, it just drops in as any other scheme such as HTTP. This is accomplished by creating a new WG document for 2369-bis to extend List-* headers to "permit UTF8 whenever UTF8 is otherwise permitted in header fields". There isn't a need to do more than adding this one sentence to the existing 2369, I think. So hopefully it will be very simple to produce. We need to be very clear that, as 2369-bis is being done by EAI, its scope is strictly limited to permitting UTF8 and not to any other changes that anyone might desire in 2369. A preference is for List-ID to be considered special and remain ASCII (same as Message-ID). There is an open question on internationalized domain names: since these are used in Sieve scripts, users need to be able to type them in. Note that allowing UTF8 in List-* headers is equivalent to allowing UTF8 in address headers. Presumably, only EAI-aware clients will see either. ---------------------------------------------- New text in -downgrade: List-* headers which contain native UTF8 should be copied into Downgrade-List-* and the UTF8 IRI should be dropped (alternate: encoded per IRI). Add informative reference to new 2369-bis draft along the lines of "Since [2369-bis] permits UTF8 in List-* headers, which are vital to user's experience of mailing lists, this document needs to specify how such headers are to be downgraded and remain valid." ---------------------------------------------- New text in -mailinglist: Where available, mailing lists SHOULD include an ASCII form of List-* headers as well as a UTF8 form. Because these headers are vital to good operations and use of mailing lists, special rules are defined in [downgrade] so that such headers are not stripped during downgrade, but are preserved with working values whenever possible. ---------------------------------------------- New text in -framework-bis: New versions of List-* headers are also defined, which permit native UTF8. ---------------------------------------------- -utf8headers: My suggestion is to create an I-D for utf8headers-bis which adds List-* headers, and keep it around as an I-D for when we go to standards track. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly-selected tag: --------------- Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it. --Tallulah Bankhead _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 28 11:44:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F31EF3A6993; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:44:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C365128C25E for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:42:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.133 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.133 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.270, BAYES_00=-2.599, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=3.196, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uuLlWaaigKA4 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8AFC28C189 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 11:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1KNXfd-0001Z2-26 for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:42:09 +0000 Received: from rain.gmane.org ([80.91.229.7]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:42:09 +0000 Received: from hmdmhdfmhdjmzdtjmzdtzktdkztdjz by rain.gmane.org with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:42:09 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ima@ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:43:09 +0200 Organization: Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.gmane.org X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 Subject: Re: [EAI] Proposed resolution of List-* and downgrade- Issues X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Randall Gellens wrote: > We need to be very clear that, as 2369-bis is being done by EAI, > its scope is strictly limited to permitting UTF8 and not to any > other changes that anyone might desire in 2369. Why not promote 2369 to DS, upgrade its 1738 reference to STD 66, and allow IRIs and UTF-8 in the context of a message/global in a very short i18n consideratins section ? Apparently your proposal covers 1.5 lines of my 2.5 lines. There are no errata, apparently. It *might* be really simple, because 2369bis is not about mailto-bis (etc.) details. > There is an open question on internationalized domain names: > since these are used in Sieve scripts, users need to be able to > type them in. Sorry, I don't get that. A-labels are ASCII, and U-labels can be UTF-8, where's the problem wrt IDN ? > -downgrade: [I'll look at -downgrade in an IETF Last Call, here makes no sense] > Where available, mailing lists SHOULD include an ASCII form of > List-* headers as well as a UTF8 form. I'd prefer MUST. If a user loses EAI connectivity in some odd way "help" and "unsubscribe" MUST still work. Frank _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jul 28 20:36:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDA2B3A6870; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:36:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96E093A6870 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:36:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7qt95vFM43ah for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:36:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com (rv-out-0506.google.com [209.85.198.228]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2498A3A67F7 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:36:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id b25so3969174rvf.49 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.205.10 with SMTP id h10mr2739784rvq.54.1217302625855; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:37:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.194.12 with HTTP; Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:37:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:37:05 +0900 From: "Jaeyoun Kim" To: ima@ietf.org, EAI-implementors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Subject: [EAI] "CJKT+Afilias" EAI (Email Address Internationalization) Interoperability Test Result X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Dear all, I am writing this email for those who were not able to attend the EAI WG meeting. We (CNNIC, JPRS, NIDA, TWNIC, and Afilias) presented our interoperability test result during the meeting and did a demonstration to show how the EAI protocol works. You can check it out at http://cslab.kr/eai-test/ During the demonstration, we shared the passwords of our public email accounts with people in the room. However, we have to change it for a security reason. You can still try it out because you can freely sign up to create a new account. Please contact us if you have any question. I would like to thank all EAI implementors (CNNIC, JPRS, TWNIC, and Afilias) for their efforts on implementing EAI. Regards, Jaeyoun Kim NIDA P.S. The source codes (JPRS and NIDA) are available online. * JPRS: http://eai.dnslab.jp/ * NIDA: http://code.google.com/p/utf8smtp/ _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 29 01:38:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F6F028C123; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 01:38:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFC6228C17C for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 01:38:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aKcUtAue2+GD for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 01:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine02.qualcomm.com (wolverine02.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E862228C123 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 01:38:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=randy@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1217320708; x=1248856708; h=message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer: x-message-flag:date:to:from:subject:content-type: x-random-sig-tag:x-ironport-av; z=Message-Id:=20 |In-Reply-To:=20|References: =20=0D=0A=20|X-Mailer:=20Eudora=20for=20Mac=20O S=20X|X-message-flag:=20Warning:=20Outlook=20in=20use.=20 =20Upgrade=20to=20Eudora:=20|Date: =20Tue,=2029=20Jul=202008=2001:34:10=20-0700|To:=20"Frank =20Ellermann"=20,=20ima@ietf.org|From:=20Randall=20Gellens=20|Subject:=20Re:=20[EAI]=20Proposed=20resolution =20of=20List-*=20and=20downgrade-=20Issues|Content-Type: =20text/plain=3B=20charset=3D"us-ascii"=20=3B=20format=3D "flowed"|X-Random-Sig-Tag:=201.0b28|X-IronPort-AV:=20E=3D McAfee=3Bi=3D"5200,2160,5348"=3B=20a=3D"4964038"; bh=yHLoFROs9iCwhZhbJV65uob5bBbmJUmmay8mPJL7XIw=; b=bMdRBhzbfIbrABYrEVapRukB95vMB7IfpPrx3zF3xYflySnSfwT6DvJX Q5eNsDJlsdrwmlVCoxSzeNu2PRBCoM/kcg8gKn+xq82M0Q/sVeZvaElbO aXJ9SK92ViUiYKyXaeMcXZgZEetsLtlcP4OOkQWSI7RTlrDuRwWUhW6VN g=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5200,2160,5348"; a="4964038" Received: from pdmz-ns-mip.qualcomm.com (HELO ithilien.qualcomm.com) ([199.106.114.10]) by wolverine02.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 29 Jul 2008 01:38:27 -0700 Received: from msgtransport05.qualcomm.com (msgtransport05.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.150]) by ithilien.qualcomm.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/1.0) with ESMTP id m6T8cRR2001371 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 29 Jul 2008 01:38:27 -0700 Received: from [172.16.14.74] (vpn-10-50-16-23.qualcomm.com [10.50.16.23]) by msgtransport05.qualcomm.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/1.0) with ESMTP id m6T8cOE1025011; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 01:38:26 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X X-message-flag: Warning: Outlook in use. Upgrade to Eudora: Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 01:34:10 -0700 To: "Frank Ellermann" , ima@ietf.org From: Randall Gellens Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 Subject: Re: [EAI] Proposed resolution of List-* and downgrade- Issues X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org At 8:43 PM +0200 7/28/08, Frank Ellermann wrote: > > Where available, mailing lists SHOULD include an ASCII form of >> List-* headers as well as a UTF8 form. > > I'd prefer MUST. If a user loses EAI connectivity in some odd way > "help" and "unsubscribe" MUST still work. I think we decided a long time ago not to require mailing lists to have ASCII addresses for list functions, hence the "where available" in the suggested text. We could say "MUST", but a what that means is, "if you have an ASCII address for this list function, you MUST include it," which seems strange given that they don't need to have an ASCII address at all. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly-selected tag: --------------- There will be no lasting peace on our earth as long as politicians and dictators continue to lead masses of people who are endemically neurotic and sexually sick. --Wilhelm Reich _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 29 02:41:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8687D28C23A; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 02:41:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74ED028C23A for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 02:41:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.344 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.344 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.745, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mv0vCXY63CVA for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 02:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net [79.135.125.43]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAA4F28C1F1 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 02:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster&pop3&clerew^man$ac$uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 488ee5e1.2f46.3bb for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:41:53 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m6T9foxY027222 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:41:52 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:41:50 +0100 To: IMA From: "Charles Lindsey" MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.25 (SunOS) Subject: Re: [EAI] Proposed resolution of List-* and downgrade- Issues X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"; DelSp="yes" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:34:57 +0100, Randall Gellens = wrote: > ---------------------------------------------- > Proposed resolution of "List-*" headers: > > EAI to define new versions of List-* headers which can have unencoded = > UTF8 values. This is just a trivial revision of the current forms. Like = > the current forms, each header can have multiple IRI, URL, URL, etc. = > Note that this is orthogonal to new "mailto" -- when mailto-bis is = > ready, it just drops in as any other scheme such as HTTP. But is that not equivalent to just saying that IRIs are to be permitted = (within the UTF8SMTP universe) in places where URIs are currently allowed? And if it is not equivalent, then why cannot it be made so? > A preference is for List-ID to be considered special and remain ASCII = > (same as Message-ID). Agreed. > ... There is an open question on internationalized domain names: since = > these are used in Sieve scripts, users need to be able to type them in. Ah! So if we have List-Post: (which is presumably an IRI), then is the corresponding URI just a = %-encoding of "ma=F1ana", or is it a punycode thereof? Actually, I think we= = have to wait for mailto-bis to answer this question, because mailto-bis = might well allow something of the form List-Post: > (i.e. and Alt address). > > Note that allowing UTF8 in List-* headers is equivalent to allowing UTF8 = > in address headers. Presumably, only EAI-aware clients will see either. > > ---------------------------------------------- > New text in -downgrade: > > List-* headers which contain native UTF8 should be copied into > Downgrade-List-* and the UTF8 IRI should be dropped (alternate: > encoded per IRI). No! Don't drop it. Downgrade it to a URI, and let mailto-bis sort out the = result. > > Add informative reference to new 2369-bis draft along the lines of = > "Since [2369-bis] permits UTF8 in List-* headers, which are vital to = > user's experience of mailing lists, this document needs to specify how = > such headers are to be downgraded and remain valid." > > ---------------------------------------------- > New text in -mailinglist: > > Where available, mailing lists SHOULD include an ASCII form of List-* = > headers as well as a UTF8 form. Because these headers are vital to good = > operations and use of mailing lists, special rules are defined in = > [downgrade] so that such headers are not stripped during downgrade, but = > are preserved with working values whenever possible. Having invented alt-addresses for use elsewhere within EAI, let us stick = with them here. The last thing we want is two mechanisms for achieving the = same result. -- = Charles=A0H.=A0Lindsey=A0---------At=A0Home,=A0doing=A0my=A0own=A0thing----= -------------------- Tel:=A0+44=A0161=A0436=A06131=A0 = =A0=A0=A0Web:=A0http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email:=A0chl@clerew.man.ac.uk=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Snail:=A05=A0Clerewood=A0Ave= ,=A0CHEADLE,=A0SK8=A03JU,=A0U.K. PGP:=A02C15F1A9=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Fingerprint:=A073=A06D=A0C2=A051=A093=A0A0= =A001=A0E7=A065=A0E8=A064=A07E=A014=A0A4=A0AB=A0A5 _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 29 06:04:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A6B728C17E; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 06:04:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDE0E3A6A60 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 06:04:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nAELhtGodXIR for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 06:04:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine01.qualcomm.com (wolverine01.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.254]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0542728C2A5 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 06:04:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=randy@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1217336692; x=1248872692; h=message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer: x-message-flag:date:to:from:subject:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:x-random-sig-tag:x-ironport-av; z=Message-Id:=20 |In-Reply-To:=20 |References:=20=0D =0A=20|X-Mailer:=20Eu dora=20for=20Mac=20OS=20X|X-message-flag:=20Warning:=20Ou tlook=20in=20use.=20=20Upgrade=20to=20Eudora:=20|Date:=20Tue,=2029=20Jul=202008=2005:59:36 =20-0700|To:=20"Charles=20Lindsey"=20,=20IMA=20|From:=20Randall=20Gellens=20|Subject:=20Re:=20[EAI]=20Proposed=20re solution=20of=20List-*=20and=20downgrade-=20Issues |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3D"iso-8859-1" =20=3B=20format=3D"flowed"|Content-Transfer-Encoding:=20q uoted-printable|X-Random-Sig-Tag:=201.0b28|X-IronPort-AV: =20E=3DMcAfee=3Bi=3D"5200,2160,5348"=3B=20a=3D"5138141"; bh=UGA2ra44rusAOD+Ow6lu8Rgj6CXIig/6StjU4vKSD14=; b=Vx8Ce20SrEfHgDZ+c3JaDRoF6dHSHv+efDCCynaKotVIwV1dd2FZSBur XSmkOZx+zhfIcedJVQn8dpt58SYIkUHMfSTnhMM05GfwILPPbcl1uTkbA lbJ4rKKajOSvP0Krtii0VgS2+F56BePz9WUdNJlwRcxwVZvV0jVHIEs9I w=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5200,2160,5348"; a="5138141" Received: from pdmz-ns-mip.qualcomm.com (HELO numenor.qualcomm.com) ([199.106.114.10]) by wolverine01.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 29 Jul 2008 06:04:52 -0700 Received: from msgtransport02.qualcomm.com (msgtransport02.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.151]) by numenor.qualcomm.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/1.0) with ESMTP id m6TD4pOR020247 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 29 Jul 2008 06:04:52 -0700 Received: from [172.16.14.74] (vpn-10-50-0-105.qualcomm.com [10.50.0.105]) by msgtransport02.qualcomm.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/1.0) with ESMTP id m6TD4gfc014733; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 06:04:50 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X X-message-flag: Warning: Outlook in use. Upgrade to Eudora: Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 05:59:36 -0700 To: "Charles Lindsey" , IMA From: Randall Gellens Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 Subject: Re: [EAI] Proposed resolution of List-* and downgrade- Issues X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org At 10:41 AM +0100 7/29/08, Charles Lindsey wrote: > On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:34:57 +0100, Randall = > Gellens wrote: > >> ---------------------------------------------- >> Proposed resolution of "List-*" headers: >> >> EAI to define new versions of List-* headers = >> which can have unencoded UTF8 values. This is = >> just a trivial revision of the current forms. = >> Like the current forms, each header can have = >> multiple IRI, URL, URL, etc. = >> Note that this is orthogonal to new "mailto" = >> -- when mailto-bis is ready, it just drops in = >> as any other scheme such as HTTP. > > But is that not equivalent to just saying that = > IRIs are to be permitted (within the UTF8SMTP = > universe) in places where URIs are currently = > allowed? > > And if it is not equivalent, then why cannot it be made so? I'm no expert in IRIs, but my understanding is = that an IRI can be represented either in UTF8 or = in percent-encoded form. I specifically said = "unencoded UTF8 values" because I think this is = the key point. > >> A preference is for List-ID to be considered = >> special and remain ASCII (same as Message-ID). > > Agreed. Yes, but, there is the sticky point in the next paragraph.... > >> ... There is an open question on = >> internationalized domain names: since these = >> are used in Sieve scripts, users need to be = >> able to type them in. > > Ah! So if we have > List-Post: > (which is presumably an IRI), then is the = > corresponding URI just a %-encoding of = > "ma=F1ana", or is it a punycode thereof? = > Actually, I think we have to wait for = > mailto-bis to answer this question, because = > mailto-bis might well allow something of the = > form > List-Post: > > (i.e. and Alt address). The point about internationalized domain names = and Sieve scripts is specifically about List-ID. = Since this is the unique identifier for a list = and hence used in Sieve scripts, it should be = permitted to be something meaningful that users = can type in. So, the example might be List-ID: list.ma=F1ana.com Which would be meaningful, and presumably easy = for users to remember and to type in. Forcing = this List-ID to be in punycode turns it from = something meaningful and easy to type into = gobbledegook. However, permitting UTF8 means = that during downconversion it will be encoded, = and then there is the question as to if anything = will recognize an encoded List-ID as being = identical to the unencoded version. >> >> Note that allowing UTF8 in List-* headers is = >> equivalent to allowing UTF8 in address = >> headers. Presumably, only EAI-aware clients = >> will see either. >> >> ---------------------------------------------- >> New text in -downgrade: >> >> List-* headers which contain native UTF8 should be copied into >> Downgrade-List-* and the UTF8 IRI should be dropped (alternate: >> encoded per IRI). > > No! Don't drop it. Downgrade it to a URI, and = > let mailto-bis sort out the result. mailto is just one possible scheme that can be = used in a List-* header. I'm OK with encoding = it, if the encoded result is always as valid and = usable as the unencoded form. >> >> Add informative reference to new 2369-bis = >> draft along the lines of "Since [2369-bis] = >> permits UTF8 in List-* headers, which are = >> vital to user's experience of mailing lists, = >> this document needs to specify how such = >> headers are to be downgraded and remain valid." >> >> ---------------------------------------------- >> New text in -mailinglist: >> >> Where available, mailing lists SHOULD include = >> an ASCII form of List-* headers as well as a = >> UTF8 form. Because these headers are vital to = >> good operations and use of mailing lists, = >> special rules are defined in [downgrade] so = >> that such headers are not stripped during = >> downgrade, but are preserved with working = >> values whenever possible. > > Having invented alt-addresses for use elsewhere = > within EAI, let us stick with them here. The = > last thing we want is two mechanisms for = > achieving the same result. I don't follow. What are the two versions? The = point is that an EAI-aware list can be created = that operates behind a UTF8 email address which = has no ASCII version. That's perfectly OK, if = people want to do this. Presumably, the list is = only for people who have EAI-aware clients. -- = Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly-selected tag: --------------- Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. --Margaret Meed _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 29 11:01:53 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3CD63A6B02; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:01:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A50313A6B02 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:01:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.546 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.546 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U1lEGeyZ135D for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (sca-es-mail-2.Sun.COM [192.18.43.133]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E38A3A6AE9 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fe-sfbay-10.sun.com ([192.18.43.129]) by sca-es-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id m6TI1vHu020180 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from conversion-daemon.fe-sfbay-10.sun.com by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) id <0K4S001014R03F00@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com> (original mail from Chris.Newman@Sun.COM) for ima@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nifty-silver.meeting.ietf.org ([130.129.23.144]) by fe-sfbay-10.sun.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTPSA id <0K4S00I7H4R6RL20@fe-sfbay-10.sun.com>; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 19:01:53 +0100 From: Chris Newman In-reply-to: To: Charles Lindsey , IMA Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) Content-disposition: inline References: <20080718014600.9E80A28C165@core3.amsl.com> Subject: Re: [EAI] Document Action: 'SMTP extension for internationalized email address' to Experimental RFC X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org --On July 28, 2008 16:03:15 +0100 Charles Lindsey wrote: > On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 02:46:00 +0100, The IESG > wrote: > >> The IESG has approved the following documents: >> >> - 'Internationalized Email Headers ' >> as an Experimental RFC >> - 'SMTP extension for internationalized email address ' >> as an Experimental RFC >> >> These documents are products of the Email Address Internationalization >> Working Group. > > I find it a matter of regret that the IESG has published these documents > in spite of my complaint that they were inconsistent with existing Draft > Standards. > > It remains my opinion that the message/utf8smtp feature is a clear breach > of RFC 2045, and that it will not interwork with the bulk of deployed > current servers. Experimental data supporting your opinion would be most welcome to help evaluate the success and/or failure of this experiment. Thanks, - Chris _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jul 29 23:27:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A33BC3A6AA1; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 23:27:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 467D83A6867 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 23:27:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.262 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.262 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.086, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, SARE_FWDLOOK=1.666] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UjoQRMYl9weH for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 23:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3403E3A69F7 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2008 23:27:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id m6U6RsDN014930 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:27:54 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 6886_a481ee94_5e00_11dd_960d_0014221fa3c9; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:27:54 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:50684) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:21:42 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20080730151421.0847dc08@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:18:15 +0900 To: Randall Gellens , ima@ietf.org From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [EAI] Proposed resolution of List-* and downgrade- Issues X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org For the Archived-At header, defined in http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5064.txt, which is related to list headers but somewhat different because it indicates per-message archival location, I took a forward-looking approach and included this: 2.4. Syntax Extension for Internationalized Message Headers There are some efforts to allow non-ASCII text directly in message header field bodies. In such contexts, the URI non-terminal in the syntax defined in Section 2.1 is to be replaced by an Internationalized Resource Identifier (IRI) as defined in [RFC3987]. The specifics of the actual octet encoding of the IRI will follow the rules for general direct encoding of non-ASCII text. For conversion between IRIs and URIs, the procedures defined in [RFC3987] are to be applied. My understanding is that this is enough for people to figure out that with EAI, they can use IRIs (encoded in UTF-8) in the Archived-At header(s) of EAI messages. If somebody thinks that's not enough, and a revision of RFC 5064 is needed, please tell me. Regards, Martin. At 02:34 08/07/29, Randall Gellens wrote: > >---------------------------------------------- >Proposed resolution of "List-*" headers: > >EAI to define new versions of List-* headers which can have unencoded UTF8 values. This is just a trivial revision of the current forms. Like the current forms, each header can have multiple IRI, URL, URL, etc. Note that this is orthogonal to new "mailto" -- when mailto-bis is ready, it just drops in as any other scheme such as HTTP. > >This is accomplished by creating a new WG document for 2369-bis to extend List-* headers to "permit UTF8 whenever UTF8 is otherwise permitted in header fields". There isn't a need to do more than adding this one sentence to the existing 2369, I think. So hopefully it will be very simple to produce. We need to be very clear that, as 2369-bis is being done by EAI, its scope is strictly limited to permitting UTF8 and not to any other changes that anyone might desire in 2369. > >A preference is for List-ID to be considered special and remain ASCII (same as Message-ID). There is an open question on internationalized domain names: since these are used in Sieve scripts, users need to be able to type them in. > >Note that allowing UTF8 in List-* headers is equivalent to allowing UTF8 in address headers. Presumably, only EAI-aware clients will see either. > >---------------------------------------------- >New text in -downgrade: > >List-* headers which contain native UTF8 should be copied into >Downgrade-List-* and the UTF8 IRI should be dropped (alternate: >encoded per IRI). > >Add informative reference to new 2369-bis draft along the lines of "Since [2369-bis] permits UTF8 in List-* headers, which are vital to user's experience of mailing lists, this document needs to specify how such headers are to be downgraded and remain valid." > >---------------------------------------------- >New text in -mailinglist: > >Where available, mailing lists SHOULD include an ASCII form of List-* headers as well as a UTF8 form. Because these headers are vital to good operations and use of mailing lists, special rules are defined in [downgrade] so that such headers are not stripped during downgrade, but are preserved with working values whenever possible. > >---------------------------------------------- >New text in -framework-bis: > >New versions of List-* headers are also defined, which permit native UTF8. > >---------------------------------------------- >-utf8headers: > >My suggestion is to create an I-D for utf8headers-bis which adds >List-* headers, and keep it around as an I-D for when we go to >standards track. > >-- >Randall Gellens >Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only >-------------- Randomly-selected tag: --------------- >Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it. > --Tallulah Bankhead >_______________________________________________ >IMA mailing list >IMA@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 30 02:09:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37D6C3A6B9C; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:09:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F286E28C1A1 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:09:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.289 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.289 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.114, BAYES_00=-2.599, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=3.196, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NSjlOFI5EXSK for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B74328C1C1 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 02:09:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1KO7go-0002uP-Ux for ima@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:09:47 +0000 Received: from rain.gmane.org ([80.91.229.7]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:09:46 +0000 Received: from hmdmhdfmhdjmzdtjmzdtzktdkztdjz by rain.gmane.org with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:09:46 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ima@ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:10:47 +0200 Organization: Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <6.0.0.20.2.20080730151421.0847dc08@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.gmane.org X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 Subject: Re: [EAI] Proposed resolution of List-* and downgrade- Issues X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Martin Duerst wrote: > My understanding is that this is enough for people to figure > out that with EAI, they can use IRIs (encoded in UTF-8) in > the Archived-At header(s) of EAI messages. > If somebody thinks that's not enough, and a revision of RFC > 5064 is needed, please tell me. Not at this time, let's wait until the dust of IDNAbis and EAI settles. BCP 9 mumbles something about "six months", but IMO an RFC 5064 promotion can wait until EAI, 2822upd, and IDNAbis catch up. Frank _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 30 03:31:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CEE33A6BFC; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 03:31:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB5EB3A6BFB for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 03:31:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.942 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.942 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.657, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wOCIa4vDdRRz for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 03:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-1.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-1.gradwell.net [79.135.125.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E41B73A68B4 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 03:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster$pop3$clerew^man#ac#uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-1.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 489042f5.a3f.dde for ima@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:31:17 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m6UAVFkd028667 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:31:17 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:31:15 +0100 To: IMA From: "Charles Lindsey" MIME-Version: 1.0 References: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.25 (SunOS) Subject: Re: [EAI] Proposed resolution of List-* and downgrade- Issues X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"; DelSp="yes" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 13:59:36 +0100, Randall Gellens = wrote: > At 10:41 AM +0100 7/29/08, Charles Lindsey wrote: > >> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:34:57 +0100, Randall Gellens = >> wrote: >>> EAI to define new versions of List-* headers which can have unencoded = >>> UTF8 values.... >> >> But is that not equivalent to just saying that IRIs are to be = >> permitted (within the UTF8SMTP universe) in places where URIs are = >> currently allowed? >> >> And if it is not equivalent, then why cannot it be made so? > > I'm no expert in IRIs, but my understanding is that an IRI can be = > represented either in UTF8 or in percent-encoded form. I specifically = > said "unencoded UTF8 values" because I think this is the key point. I think we need Martin to come in here and explain it all to us. > >> >>> A preference is for List-ID to be considered special and remain ASCII = >>> (same as Message-ID). >> >> Agreed. > > Yes, but, there is the sticky point in the next paragraph.... But the my paragraph was not addressed to List-ID, but to those List-* = headers that currently use URIs. > >> >>> ... There is an open question on internationalized domain names: = >>> since these are used in Sieve scripts, users need to be able to type = >>> them in. > > The point about internationalized domain names and Sieve scripts is = > specifically about List-ID. Since this is the unique identifier for a = > list and hence used in Sieve scripts, it should be permitted to be = > something meaningful that users can type in. So, the example might be > > List-ID: list.ma=F1ana.com Well either we allow UTF-8 in there, or we don't. If we do, then we have = to address the consequences. >>> List-* headers which contain native UTF8 should be copied into >>> Downgrade-List-* and the UTF8 IRI should be dropped (alternate: >>> encoded per IRI). >> >> No! Don't drop it. Downgrade it to a URI, and let mailto-bis sort out = >> the result. > > mailto is just one possible scheme that can be used in a List-* header. = > I'm OK with encoding it, if the encoded result is always as valid and = > usable as the unencoded form. If it's a valid IRI (of whatever scheme), then there is already an agreed = mechanism to turn it into a valid URI. Whether it is "valid" delepnds on = the scheme. The Mailto case is off interest because it is likely to be = modified to handle EAI addresses, and we are in a position to influence = the nature of that modification. Again, we need Martin to come in here. >> Having invented alt-addresses for use elsewhere within EAI, let us = >> stick with them here. The last thing we want is two mechanisms for = >> achieving the same result. > > I don't follow. What are the two versions? The point is that an = > EAI-aware list can be created that operates behind a UTF8 email address = > which has no ASCII version. That's perfectly OK, if people want to do = > this. Presumably, the list is only for people who have EAI-aware = > clients. There may be mailing lists which are only intended for EAI-aware clients. There may be mailing lists where EAI messages are accepted, but are = downgraded before forwarding. There may be mailing lists where EAI messages are accepted and forwarded, = but will get downgraded when sent to non-EAI subscribers. There may be mailing lists which are all-ASCII, but which accept = subscriptions from EAI addresses. All of these cases need to work in a sensible manner. -- = Charles=A0H.=A0Lindsey=A0---------At=A0Home,=A0doing=A0my=A0own=A0thing----= -------------------- Tel:=A0+44=A0161=A0436=A06131=A0 = =A0=A0=A0Web:=A0http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email:=A0chl@clerew.man.ac.uk=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Snail:=A05=A0Clerewood=A0Ave= ,=A0CHEADLE,=A0SK8=A03JU,=A0U.K. PGP:=A02C15F1A9=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Fingerprint:=A073=A06D=A0C2=A051=A093=A0A0= =A001=A0E7=A065=A0E8=A064=A07E=A014=A0A4=A0AB=A0A5 _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 30 09:04:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23DBE28C2DE; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:04:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0ED83A6AE6 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:04:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.166 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.166 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.767, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_FWDLOOK=1.666, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cXui591CoVnw for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine01.qualcomm.com (wolverine01.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.254]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2582F3A6A9A for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:04:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=randy@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1217433884; x=1248969884; h=message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer: x-message-flag:date:to:from:subject:content-type: x-random-sig-tag:x-ironport-av; z=Message-Id:=20 |In-Reply-To:=20<6.0.0.20.2.20080730151421.0847dc08@local host>|References:=20=0D=0A=20<6.0.0.20.2.20080730151421.0847dc08@localhost> |X-Mailer:=20Eudora=20for=20Mac=20OS=20X|X-message-flag: =20Warning:=20Outlook=20in=20use.=20=20Upgrade=20to=20Eud ora:=20|Date:=20Wed,=2030=20Jul=20 2008=2009:02:49=20-0700|To:=20Martin=20Duerst=20,=0D=0A=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20Randall=20G ellens=20,=20ima@ietf.org|From:=20Ran dall=20Gellens=20|Subject:=20Re:=20[E AI]=20Proposed=20resolution=20of=20List-*=20and=20downgra de-=20Issues|Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3D"u s-ascii"=20=3B=20format=3D"flowed"|X-Random-Sig-Tag:=201. 0b28|X-IronPort-AV:=20E=3DMcAfee=3Bi=3D"5200,2160,5349" =3B=20a=3D"5177609"; bh=X1ocoF9mk+Df8FdVgEg9iukDkzfwcEr3hT8XvjkjqDk=; b=VOqJIScetbzOA94wdLtXorVLigwwU3SN1tDVjhnwTJGgUd4Dk7NKRIqS 9X5e4jxIiUyKOCMGdMkBNjPDVvl1uwxWXcp0xEj22MsFIvC+zVGaUXn6e 9BH5IuqZ0fdIa+YX4kfGKj+QK2xskjATcw3Fj6sQJ8jsEnO5ds7K/+KbC E=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5200,2160,5349"; a="5177609" Received: from pdmz-ns-mip.qualcomm.com (HELO numenor.qualcomm.com) ([199.106.114.10]) by wolverine01.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 30 Jul 2008 09:04:28 -0700 Received: from msgtransport02.qualcomm.com (msgtransport02.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.151]) by numenor.qualcomm.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/1.0) with ESMTP id m6UG4S46022672 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:04:28 -0700 Received: from [130.129.20.99] (vpn-10-50-16-68.qualcomm.com [10.50.16.68]) by msgtransport02.qualcomm.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/1.0) with ESMTP id m6UG4ORc003426; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:04:26 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20080730151421.0847dc08@localhost> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20080730151421.0847dc08@localhost> X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X X-message-flag: Warning: Outlook in use. Upgrade to Eudora: Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:02:49 -0700 To: Martin Duerst , Randall Gellens , ima@ietf.org From: Randall Gellens Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 Subject: Re: [EAI] Proposed resolution of List-* and downgrade- Issues X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org At 3:18 PM +0900 7/30/08, Martin Duerst wrote: > For the Archived-At header, defined in http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5064.txt, > which is related to list headers but somewhat different because it > indicates per-message archival location, I took a forward-looking > approach and included this: > > 2.4. Syntax Extension for Internationalized Message Headers > > There are some efforts to allow non-ASCII text directly in message > header field bodies. In such contexts, the URI non-terminal in the > syntax defined in Section 2.1 is to be replaced by an > Internationalized Resource Identifier (IRI) as defined in [RFC3987]. > The specifics of the actual octet encoding of the IRI will follow the > rules for general direct encoding of non-ASCII text. For conversion > between IRIs and URIs, the procedures defined in [RFC3987] are to be > applied. > > My understanding is that this is enough for people to figure out > that with EAI, they can use IRIs (encoded in UTF-8) in the > Archived-At header(s) of EAI messages. If somebody thinks that's > not enough, and a revision of RFC 5064 is needed, please tell me. I think it would be more clear if, instead of saying "The specifics of the actual octet encoding of the IRI will follow the rules for general direct encoding of non-ASCII text," it actually said UTF8. (For example, "The IRI is encoded in UTF8.") However, I'm not sure this is worth a revision. If you're going to revise it anyway, then add it. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly-selected tag: --------------- It has always seemed to me that the most difficult part of building a bridge would be the start. --Robert Benchley _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jul 30 09:13:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 254B83A69AB; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:13:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E0693A6979 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:13:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.127 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.127 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.472, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KMVJXbDMYcrL for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:13:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine01.qualcomm.com (wolverine01.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.254]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 321FF3A68FD for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:13:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=randy@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1217434412; x=1248970412; h=message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer: x-message-flag:date:to:from:subject:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:x-random-sig-tag:x-ironport-av; z=Message-Id:=20 |In-Reply-To:=20 |References:=20=0D =0A=20=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20|X-Mailer:=20Eudora=20for=20Mac=20OS =20X|X-message-flag:=20Warning:=20Outlook=20in=20use.=20 =20Upgrade=20to=20Eudora:=20|Date: =20Wed,=2030=20Jul=202008=2009:09:22=20-0700|To:=20"Charl es=20Lindsey"=20,=20IMA=20|From:=20Randall=20Gellens=20 |Subject:=20Re:=20[EAI]=20Proposed=20resolution=20of=20Li st-*=20and=20downgrade-=20Issues|Content-Type:=20text/pla in=3B=20charset=3D"iso-8859-1"=20=3B=20format=3D"flowed" |Content-Transfer-Encoding:=20quoted-printable |X-Random-Sig-Tag:=201.0b28|X-IronPort-AV:=20E=3DMcAfee =3Bi=3D"5200,2160,5349"=3B=20a=3D"5177918"; bh=zVJysQpfJf5fTcG8VCm/aHeWAGz3EP0HoQeZj//HyG0=; b=rcWCA09MxjNltJ4m4n6isKn69vxesjmVRWWCSvEhhbQo5opSM0dg3268 oHRz23AZ4eUi59X5QyQbsWHMm5tKeusyqmnwlXF7wIxBamWUIT57SvmFI R5b3ABbsb1lBbLMwTTFwre7IlFTo5CPbly6jHn72ysrfZU8mwoU0Jmcqf g=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5200,2160,5349"; a="5177918" Received: from pdmz-ns-mip.qualcomm.com (HELO ithilien.qualcomm.com) ([199.106.114.10]) by wolverine01.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 30 Jul 2008 09:13:32 -0700 Received: from msgtransport02.qualcomm.com (msgtransport02.qualcomm.com [129.46.61.151]) by ithilien.qualcomm.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/1.0) with ESMTP id m6UGDWsZ032160 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:13:32 -0700 Received: from [130.129.20.99] (vpn-10-50-16-68.qualcomm.com [10.50.16.68]) by msgtransport02.qualcomm.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/1.0) with ESMTP id m6UGDQZh005480; Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:13:30 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X X-message-flag: Warning: Outlook in use. Upgrade to Eudora: Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 09:09:22 -0700 To: "Charles Lindsey" , IMA From: Randall Gellens Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 Subject: Re: [EAI] Proposed resolution of List-* and downgrade- Issues X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org At 11:31 AM +0100 7/30/08, Charles Lindsey wrote: >>>> ... There is an open question on = >>>> internationalized domain names: since these = >>>> are used in Sieve scripts, users need to be = >>>> able to type them in. > >> >> The point about internationalized domain names = >> and Sieve scripts is specifically about = >> List-ID. Since this is the unique identifier = >> for a list and hence used in Sieve scripts, it = >> should be permitted to be something meaningful = >> that users can type in. So, the example might = >> be >> >> List-ID: list.ma=F1ana.com > > Well either we allow UTF-8 in there, or we = > don't. If we do, then we have to address the = > consequences. Yes. Hence the question (to allow UTF8 in List-ID or not). -- = Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly-selected tag: --------------- The Macintosh uses an experimental pointing device called a "mouse." There is no evidence that people want to use these things. --John C. Dvorak (well-known computer pundit), Feb 1984 _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 31 07:23:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48CCE3A68D7; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 07:23:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BD683A68D7 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 07:23:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.15 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.15 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.550, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ialPbh+UzOpg for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 07:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net (v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net [79.135.125.43]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A74A93A6899 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 07:23:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [80.175.135.89] ([80.175.135.89] helo=clerew.man.ac.uk country=GB ident=postmaster#pop3*clerew$man$ac^uk) by v-smtp-auth-relay-4.gradwell.net with esmtpa (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.290) id 48918e16.6d3a.52d for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:04:06 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m6VA3sCb003964 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:03:56 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:03:54 +0100 To: IMA From: "Charles Lindsey" MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6.0.0.20.2.20080730151421.0847dc08@localhost> Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.25 (SunOS) Subject: Re: [EAI] Proposed resolution of List-* and downgrade- Issues X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"; DelSp="yes" Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:10:47 +0100, Frank Ellermann = wrote: > Martin Duerst wrote: > >> My understanding is that this is enough for people to figure >> out that with EAI, they can use IRIs (encoded in UTF-8) in >> the Archived-At header(s) of EAI messages. > >> If somebody thinks that's not enough, and a revision of RFC >> 5064 is needed, please tell me. > > Not at this time, let's wait until the dust of IDNAbis and EAI > settles. BCP 9 mumbles something about "six months", but IMO > an RFC 5064 promotion can wait until EAI, 2822upd, and IDNAbis > catch up. Indeed so. What we would want to write is Archived-At: which is an IRI (using UTF-8, as always with IRIs) which, upon conversion = to a URI, would simply %-encode that '=F1'. But would that then constitute a valid URI? Who knows until = IDNAbis/whoever clarifies the matter. They might well decree that valid = URIs for that purpose have to be in punycode, which would in turn require = the IRI to be in punycode, which would mean a special downgrading at any = UTF8SMTP-ASCII interface. The same applies to mailto: [IU]RIs, except that mailto-bis is more likely = to be whatever Martin proposes, and we are in a better position to lean on = Martin :-) . -- = Charles=A0H.=A0Lindsey=A0---------At=A0Home,=A0doing=A0my=A0own=A0thing----= -------------------- Tel:=A0+44=A0161=A0436=A06131=A0 = =A0=A0=A0Web:=A0http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email:=A0chl@clerew.man.ac.uk=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Snail:=A05=A0Clerewood=A0Ave= ,=A0CHEADLE,=A0SK8=A03JU,=A0U.K. PGP:=A02C15F1A9=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Fingerprint:=A073=A06D=A0C2=A051=A093=A0A0= =A001=A0E7=A065=A0E8=A064=A07E=A014=A0A4=A0AB=A0A5 _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From ima-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jul 31 08:44:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ima-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DEB93A68A2; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:44:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AD1A3A6949 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:43:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.528 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.528 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.739, BAYES_00=-2.599, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=3.196, HTTP_ESCAPED_HOST=0.134, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, SARE_HTML_URI_LHOST30=1.666, URIBL_GREY=0.25, URI_NOVOWEL=1.62] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QyyZjpuEmUnF for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:43:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AD173A6A97 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:43:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1KOaJU-0006HJ-Qf for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:43:37 +0000 Received: from rain.gmane.org ([80.91.229.7]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:43:36 +0000 Received: from hmdmhdfmhdjmzdtjmzdtzktdkztdjz by rain.gmane.org with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:43:36 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ima@ietf.org From: "Frank Ellermann" Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:44:35 +0200 Organization: Lines: 64 Message-ID: References: <6.0.0.20.2.20080730151421.0847dc08@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: rain.gmane.org X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1914 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1914 Subject: Re: [EAI] Proposed resolution of List-* and downgrade- Issues X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ima-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ima-bounces@ietf.org Charles Lindsey wrote: > What we would want to write is > Archived-At: > which is an IRI (using UTF-8, as always with IRIs) JFTR, s/as always with IRIs/as always with EAI/ = EAI always uses UTF-8, while IRIs can be in any charset determined by the context. And for EAI that context is of course UTF-8. But in a KOI8-R document it's KOI8-R: http://hmdmhdfmhdjmzdtjmzdtzktdkztdjz.googlepages.com/IDN-IRI-koi8-r.html > which, upon conversion to a URI, would simply %-encode > that '=F1'. For an , , or an . But your example has the =F1 in the , and there you would use IDNA(bis) rules to convert this into an URL: Archived-At: Extended by some Message-ID, as Archived-At gives you the location per message, not only some archive URL. Nobody (maybe except some XML and LEIRI geeks) has the faintest idea what a might be. It is a "syntactically valid" URL in some non-DNS parallel universe I don't care about, but it is not produced by following RFC 3987 rules. Excluding XML LEIRI abominations unrelated to a "real" world as defined by DNS, Googlebot, and W3C validator. > IDNAbis/whoever clarifies the matter. They might well > decree that valid URIs for that purpose have to be in > punycode IDNAbis won't touch URIs with a stick. The IRI to URI rules are in RFC 3987, and that uses IDNA for : No percent characters in labels of host names, percent is not LDH. > mailto-bis is more likely to be whatever Martin = > proposes, and we are in a better position to lean on = > Martin :-) = Mailto-bis IRIs on a KOI8-R page would be interesting: If they are transformed to UTF-8 (the first step in a IRI to URI conversion) they might work with EAI UTF-8. But if they are transformed to a mailto-bis URL they might not more work, neither EAI nor 2822upd. Mailto-bis is very near to hopeless, I'd be delighted if it at least manages all STD 66 and 2822upd hurdles, ignoring additional mailto-i18n obstacles. Frank -- = _______________________________________________ IMA mailing list IMA@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima