From mnot@mnot.net  Wed Jul  1 00:17:35 2009
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From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
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Cc: "Julian F. F. Reschke" <julian.reschke@gmx.de>, Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>, Larry Masinter <LMM@acm.org>, idna-update@alvestrand.no, Martin Duerst <duerst@w3.org>, ima@ietf.org, Yves Lafon <ylafon@w3.org>, Anne van Kesteren <annevk@opera.com>, Vint Cerf <vint@google.com>, Lisa Dusseault <Lisa.Dusseault@messagingarchitects.com>
Subject: [EAI] Bar BoF for IRI issues at Stockholm IETF
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[ apologies if you get this message more than once ]

The IETF/W3C Liaison has been discussing issues regarding IRIs  
(especially when used as protocol elements).

Some preliminary background information can be found at:
   http://esw.w3.org/topic/UriIriIssues
(please feel free to add related issues or references to this page)

We'd like to hold a Bar BoF in Stockholm to discuss these issues, as  
well as what form any standards actions would take.

Currently, the plan is to hold it on Thursday evening, after the  
Technical Plenary <https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/75/agenda.html>.

If you're interested in attending, please reply directly to me only,  
so we can estimate numbers.

Likewise, if this time slot conflicts with another IETF-related  
activity, please respond to me.

Planning for the BoF itself will take place on the public-ietf-w3c@w3.org 
  mailing list, and further details will be announced shortly.

Kind regards,

--
Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/


From lee@cnnic.cn  Wed Jul  1 22:45:17 2009
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Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 13:46:20 +0800
From: Xiaodong Lee <lee@cnnic.cn>
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Cc: "Julian F. F. Reschke" <julian.reschke@gmx.de>, Vint Cerf <vint@google.com>, Larry Masinter <LMM@acm.org>, Martin Duerst <duerst@w3.org>, public-iri@w3.org, idna-update@alvestrand.no, ima@ietf.org, Yves Lafon <ylafon@w3.org>, public-ietf-w3c <public-ietf-w3c@w3.org>, Anne van Kesteren <annevk@opera.com>, Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>, Lisa Dusseault <Lisa.Dusseault@messagingarchitects.com>
Subject: Re: [EAI] Bar BoF for IRI issues at Stockholm IETF
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Is there document for this BAR BOF? if so, I am eager to read that.

Xiaodong
CNNIC

Mark Nottingham wrote:
> [ apologies if you get this message more than once ]
>
> The IETF/W3C Liaison has been discussing issues regarding IRIs 
> (especially when used as protocol elements).
>
> Some preliminary background information can be found at:
>   http://esw.w3.org/topic/UriIriIssues
> (please feel free to add related issues or references to this page)
>
> We'd like to hold a Bar BoF in Stockholm to discuss these issues, as 
> well as what form any standards actions would take.
>
> Currently, the plan is to hold it on Thursday evening, after the 
> Technical Plenary <https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/75/agenda.html>.
>
> If you're interested in attending, please reply directly to me only, 
> so we can estimate numbers.
>
> Likewise, if this time slot conflicts with another IETF-related 
> activity, please respond to me.
>
> Planning for the BoF itself will take place on the 
> public-ietf-w3c@w3.org mailing list, and further details will be 
> announced shortly.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> -- 
> Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/
>
> _______________________________________________
> IMA mailing list
> IMA@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima

From masinter@gmail.com  Thu Jul  2 00:56:16 2009
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From: "Larry Masinter" <LMM@acm.org>
To: <lee@cnnic.cn>, "'Mark Nottingham'" <mnot@mnot.net>
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Cc: "'Julian F. F. Reschke'" <julian.reschke@gmx.de>, 'Vint Cerf' <vint@google.com>, 'Martin Duerst' <duerst@w3.org>, public-iri@w3.org, idna-update@alvestrand.no, ima@ietf.org, 'Yves Lafon' <ylafon@w3.org>, 'public-ietf-w3c' <public-ietf-w3c@w3.org>, 'Anne van Kesteren' <annevk@opera.com>, 'Ian Hickson' <ian@hixie.ch>, 'Lisa Dusseault' <Lisa.Dusseault@messagingarchitects.com>
Subject: Re: [EAI] Bar BoF for IRI issues at Stockholm IETF
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http://www.w3.org/International/iri-edit/


I expect to have a new version by Monday and a new I-D submitted
a few days after that.



-----Original Message-----
From: Xiaodong Lee [mailto:lee@cnnic.cn] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 10:46 PM
To: Mark Nottingham
Cc: public-ietf-w3c; public-iri@w3.org; Julian F. F. Reschke; Ian Hickson;
Larry Masinter; idna-update@alvestrand.no; Martin Duerst; ima@ietf.org; Yves
Lafon; Anne van Kesteren; Vint Cerf; Lisa Dusseault
Subject: Re: [EAI] Bar BoF for IRI issues at Stockholm IETF

Is there document for this BAR BOF? if so, I am eager to read that.

Xiaodong
CNNIC

Mark Nottingham wrote:
> [ apologies if you get this message more than once ]
>
> The IETF/W3C Liaison has been discussing issues regarding IRIs 
> (especially when used as protocol elements).
>
> Some preliminary background information can be found at:
>   http://esw.w3.org/topic/UriIriIssues
> (please feel free to add related issues or references to this page)
>
> We'd like to hold a Bar BoF in Stockholm to discuss these issues, as 
> well as what form any standards actions would take.
>
> Currently, the plan is to hold it on Thursday evening, after the 
> Technical Plenary <https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/75/agenda.html>.
>
> If you're interested in attending, please reply directly to me only, 
> so we can estimate numbers.
>
> Likewise, if this time slot conflicts with another IETF-related 
> activity, please respond to me.
>
> Planning for the BoF itself will take place on the 
> public-ietf-w3c@w3.org mailing list, and further details will be 
> announced shortly.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> -- 
> Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/
>
> _______________________________________________
> IMA mailing list
> IMA@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima


From mnot@mnot.net  Thu Jul  2 02:55:15 2009
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From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
To: Larry Masinter <LMM@acm.org>, lee@cnnic.cn
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Cc: "Julian F. F. Reschke" <julian.reschke@gmx.de>, Vint Cerf <vint@google.com>, Martin Duerst <duerst@w3.org>, public-iri@w3.org, idna-update@alvestrand.no, ima@ietf.org, Yves Lafon <ylafon@w3.org>, public-ietf-w3c <public-ietf-w3c@w3.org>, Anne van Kesteren <annevk@opera.com>, Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>, Lisa Dusseault <Lisa.Dusseault@messagingarchitects.com>
Subject: Re: [EAI] Bar BoF for IRI issues at Stockholm IETF
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I've created a wiki page for the BoF itself at:
   http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/app/trac/wiki/BarBofs/IETF75/ 
IriIssues

Please refrain from cross-posting responses.

Cheers,

--
Mark Nottingham     http://www.mnot.net/


From edainow@ca.afilias.info  Fri Jul  3 06:06:00 2009
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Subject: Re: [EAI] Unicode / ASCII fallback mappings?
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We are working on an update to the eai-email-clients draft that . It has 
a section on handling Alternate Addresses. Based on the discussion on 
this thread, it does not seem like there is a recommendations that can 
be made for EAI to ASCII mapping (how to create an Alternate Address), 
but it seems like it would be useful to add something about mailbox 
integration.

6.1. Mailbox Integration

If Alternate Addresses are supported, it may be desirable to combine 
mail for the UTF8SMTP address and the Alternate Address into one mailbox 
so that all related mail can be managed in one place.

For example, if a message is sent from a UTF8SMTP address to a list of 
recipients, some of the messages may be downgraded. Replies to 
downgraded messages will be delivered to the Alternate Address, so all 
the replies to a message may be split across two different mailboxes.

Mailbox integration is not generally handled by an MUA. Many existing 
MTAs/MDAs can do this with a mail "alias" or "forward". One address is 
selected as the primary mailbox and the other address is configured as 
an alias.

Forwarding allows an email address on one email provider to be 
integrated into the mailbox on another email provider. Mailbox 
integration can make it easier for users to migrate from an old email 
system that does not support UTF8SMTP to a newer one that does. All they 
need to do is forward their old email address to the Alternate Address 
on their new mail service.


    -Ernie


From Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com  Fri Jul  3 14:13:13 2009
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: "ima@ietf.org" <ima@ietf.org>, "edainow@ca.afilias.info" <edainow@ca.afilias.info>
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That seems quite reasonable to me.

I think some really vague recommendations could be made however:  Many appl=
ications MAY want to choose Alternate Addresses that are human readable, su=
ch as an ASCII transliteration of the Unicode address, or an ASCII-only var=
iation or nickname.

I agree that not much can be said though.  It might be worth pointing out s=
ome of the choices just so that a developer doesn't proceed on one course j=
ust because they hadn't thought of any others.  It might be worth recommend=
ing against encoding techniques (like punicode) just for usability, althoug=
h in some cases ASCII usability may be irrelevent or impossible.

-Shawn

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 09:06:08 -0400
From: Ernie Dainow <edainow@ca.afilias.info>
Subject: Re: [EAI] Unicode / ASCII fallback mappings?
To: ima@ietf.org
Message-ID: <4A4E0240.7060402@ca.afilias.info>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1; format=3Dflowed

We are working on an update to the eai-email-clients draft that . It has
a section on handling Alternate Addresses. Based on the discussion on
this thread, it does not seem like there is a recommendations that can
be made for EAI to ASCII mapping (how to create an Alternate Address),
but it seems like it would be useful to add something about mailbox
integration.

6.1. Mailbox Integration

If Alternate Addresses are supported, it may be desirable to combine
mail for the UTF8SMTP address and the Alternate Address into one mailbox
so that all related mail can be managed in one place.

For example, if a message is sent from a UTF8SMTP address to a list of
recipients, some of the messages may be downgraded. Replies to
downgraded messages will be delivered to the Alternate Address, so all
the replies to a message may be split across two different mailboxes.

Mailbox integration is not generally handled by an MUA. Many existing
MTAs/MDAs can do this with a mail "alias" or "forward". One address is
selected as the primary mailbox and the other address is configured as
an alias.

Forwarding allows an email address on one email provider to be
integrated into the mailbox on another email provider. Mailbox
integration can make it easier for users to migrate from an old email
system that does not support UTF8SMTP to a newer one that does. All they
need to do is forward their old email address to the Alternate Address
on their new mail service.


    -Ernie



------------------------------

_______________________________________________
IMA mailing list
IMA@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima


End of IMA Digest, Vol 48, Issue 3
**********************************

From alexey.melnikov@isode.com  Sat Jul  4 15:02:59 2009
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Subject: Re: [EAI] POP/IMAP authentication?
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Hi Shawn,

Shawn Steele wrote:
>
> I=E2=80=99m leaving my comfort area J
>
> =20
>
> Replying to Yao Jiankang=E2=80=99s draft, it occurred to me that the=20
> alt-address probably needs to be allowed on authentication for email=20
> accounts during the =E2=80=9Ctransition period=E2=80=9D.  So if I have a U=
nicode=20
> address for my EAI mailbox, I may need to use the alt-address to logon=20
> from my non-EAI-aware IMAP/POP client (might take a while to update my=20
> phone).  I didn=E2=80=99t see that discussed in a quick peek at the IMAP/P=
OP=20
> drafts.
>
Authentication identities used by IMAP/POP servers don't have to look=20
like email addresses at all (whether they are ASCII only or EAI email=20
addresses).
In practice they frequently are, but this is an implementation detail.=20
For example IMAP doesn't prevent use of LDAP DNs as authentication=20
identities.


RFC 5255, section 5.1 talks a bit about UTF-8 authentication identities=20
(userids). I suppose EAI IMAP document needs to say that it is updating=20
RFC 5255.
=20



From edainow@ca.afilias.info  Sun Jul  5 07:59:18 2009
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From: Ernie Dainow <edainow@ca.afilias.info>
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I can suggest the following wording that I think summarizes the key 
points people have raised on name mapping.

In some environments it may be difficult or unfamiliar for a user to 
enter ASCII characters. However, selecting an Alternate Address for the 
user's UTF8SMTP address SHOULD NOT be done automatically. Automatic 
generation often results in usability problems when names that are 
difficult to read or pronounce are produced. Any generation of an 
Alternate Address should be presented to the user as a suggestion, 
allowing them to make the final choice.

    -Ernie

Shawn Steele wrote:
> That seems quite reasonable to me.
>
> I think some really vague recommendations could be made however:  Many applications MAY want to choose Alternate Addresses that are human readable, such as an ASCII transliteration of the Unicode address, or an ASCII-only variation or nickname.
>
> I agree that not much can be said though.  It might be worth pointing out some of the choices just so that a developer doesn't proceed on one course just because they hadn't thought of any others.  It might be worth recommending against encoding techniques (like punicode) just for usability, although in some cases ASCII usability may be irrelevent or impossible.
>
> -Shawn
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 09:06:08 -0400
> From: Ernie Dainow <edainow@ca.afilias.info>
> Subject: Re: [EAI] Unicode / ASCII fallback mappings?
> To: ima@ietf.org
> Message-ID: <4A4E0240.7060402@ca.afilias.info>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> We are working on an update to the eai-email-clients draft that . It has
> a section on handling Alternate Addresses. Based on the discussion on
> this thread, it does not seem like there is a recommendations that can
> be made for EAI to ASCII mapping (how to create an Alternate Address),
> but it seems like it would be useful to add something about mailbox
> integration.
>
> 6.1. Mailbox Integration
>
> If Alternate Addresses are supported, it may be desirable to combine
> mail for the UTF8SMTP address and the Alternate Address into one mailbox
> so that all related mail can be managed in one place.
>
> For example, if a message is sent from a UTF8SMTP address to a list of
> recipients, some of the messages may be downgraded. Replies to
> downgraded messages will be delivered to the Alternate Address, so all
> the replies to a message may be split across two different mailboxes.
>
> Mailbox integration is not generally handled by an MUA. Many existing
> MTAs/MDAs can do this with a mail "alias" or "forward". One address is
> selected as the primary mailbox and the other address is configured as
> an alias.
>
> Forwarding allows an email address on one email provider to be
> integrated into the mailbox on another email provider. Mailbox
> integration can make it easier for users to migrate from an old email
> system that does not support UTF8SMTP to a newer one that does. All they
> need to do is forward their old email address to the Alternate Address
> on their new mail service.
>
>
>     -Ernie
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> IMA mailing list
> IMA@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima
>
>
> End of IMA Digest, Vol 48, Issue 3
> **********************************
> _______________________________________________
> IMA mailing list
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima
>   

From jyee@ca.afilias.info  Mon Jul  6 07:59:56 2009
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From: Joseph Yee <jyee@ca.afilias.info>
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--Apple-Mail-92-148578107
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	charset=US-ASCII;
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	delsp=yes
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Greeting all,

I created the draft of EAI POP scenarios with some protocol details,  
hoping this could help for EAI POP inter-op test, official or  
unofficial.  Any comment is welcomed.

Best Regards,
Joseph Yee
Afilias
jyee@afilias.info


Begin forwarded message:

> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> Date: July 5, 2009 5:15:01 PM GMT-04:00
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Subject: I-D Action:draft-yee-eai-pop3-scenarios-00.txt
> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts  
> directories.
>
> 	Title           : UTF-8 POP3 Scenarios
> 	Author(s)       : J. Yee
> 	Filename        : draft-yee-eai-pop3-scenarios-00.txt
> 	Pages           : 8
> 	Date            : 2009-07-05
>
> This document presents client scenarios in different combinations of
> Post Office Protocol v3 (POP3) servers and clients (UTF-8, ASCII
> only).  Technical details are also documented, potential as test case
> reference.
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-yee-eai-pop3- 
> scenarios-00.txt
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> Internet-Draft.

--Apple-Mail-92-148578107
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Content-Type: text/plain<BR>Content-ID: &lt;2009-07-05140200.I-D@ietf.org&gt;<BR><BR>


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> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
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> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt


--Apple-Mail-92-148578107--

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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
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From jyee@ca.afilias.info  Mon Jul  6 14:28:38 2009
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From: Joseph Yee <jyee@ca.afilias.info>
To: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>, EAI WG <ima@ietf.org>
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On 6-Jul-09, at 3:28 PM, Shawn Steele wrote:

>> It has 3 characters, but takes 12 octets count
>>  (3 octets/bytes each).  Message size is 12 + remaining size instead
>>  of 3 + remaining size.
>
> 3*3 == 9?
Chinese characters have 4 octets each, likely a typo.  I will double  
check.  Thanks.

>
> I think that in addition to downgraded messages, there is also the  
> potential for "downgraded authentication".  If I have a UTF-8 aware  
> server, I may have a UTF-8 user name.  Assuming that the user name  
> is the same as the mailbox name, with a downgraded ASCII address,  
> then the server may desire to allow authentication with the ASCII  
> mailbox name.  (Mostly I think this'd be interesting during  
> migration as servers adopt EAI).
>

Even UTF8-mailbox without alternate address SHOULD allow  
authentication with plain ASCII.  It's up to design.  Although mostly  
the mailbox will be the login name, it doesn't have to be that way.

I think what's more important is to state allowing UTF8 encoded  
characters as part of login name & password.  Multiple different  
credential logins to same mailbox is allowed now, and I guess no one  
intended to restrict it because of EAI environment.

I will revise the doc to have pure ascii credential accessing the EAI  
mailbox.

thanks,
Joseph

> -Shawn
> _______________________________________________
> IMA mailing list
> IMA@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima


From Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com  Mon Jul  6 15:08:11 2009
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: Ernie Dainow <edainow@ca.afilias.info>
Thread-Topic: [EAI] Unicode / ASCII fallback mappings?
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From edainow@ca.afilias.info  Thu Jul  9 06:09:36 2009
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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 09:09:52 -0400
From: Ernie Dainow <edainow@ca.afilias.info>
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To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>, EAI <ima@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [EAI] Downgrade testing - Results
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These echo tests were a good suggestion. I ran a base test from an ASCII 
address against all echo servers in the list. All responded except 
echo@cnam.fr. Email bounced with "unknown address", so I  eliminated 
that server from the test, leaving a total of 9 echo servers.

The success rate for receiving a response from echo servers:
1) From ASCII, no downgrade      9/9      100%
2) From EAI, downgrade               7/9        78%

auth-results@verifier.port25.com provided some SpamAssassin analysis:
1) BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 1 to 5%
2) BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 5 to 20%

For the downgrade test sent to individual participants the results were:
Total Sent    11   (all on different email domains)
Received       9    82%
Blocked        2    18%

These are not large samples, but it is interesting to see that the 
success rate in both tests were similar, and were in the SpamAssassin 
range of 20% probability of spam.

I encourage other implementers to run the same set of tests so we can 
get a larger sample and see if there are differences between Downgrade 
implementations.

    -Ernie


Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 11:19:48AM -0400,
>  Ernie Dainow <edainow@ca.afilias.info> wrote 
>  a message of 41 lines which said:
>
>   
>> The Downgrade test reported on the wiki basically tested against gmail.  
>> It would be valuable to do more testing 'in the wild' to see how  
>> Downgrade traverses various email systems in other organizations.
>>     
>
> You can test against various auto-responders which send you back your
> message (if you know other email addresses of auto-responders, do not
> hesitate to publish them).
>
> * echo@generic-nic.net 
> * echo@nic.fr 
> * Echo@TU-Berlin.DE 
> * echo@tu-chemnitz.de 
> * echo@ouain.com 
> * repondsmoi@crdp.ac-versailles.fr
> * echo@cnam.fr
> * ping@stamper.itconsult.co.uk 
> * ping@oleane.net
> * check-auth@verifier.port25.com
>   

From klensin@jck.com  Thu Jul  9 06:13:00 2009
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From: John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com>
To: YAO Jiankang <yaojk@cnnic.cn>, EAI WG <ima@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <35B17A992EF69AC2D3AE8DD3@PST.JCK.COM>
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Subject: Re: [EAI] Fw: I-D Action:draft-yao-eai-deployment-02.txt
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--On Thursday, July 09, 2009 14:49 +0800 YAO Jiankang
<yaojk@cnnic.cn> wrote:

> Dear all,
> 
>        updated to version 2.
> 
>    o  rename the section "Sending Server" to "SMTP client"
>    o  rename the section "Recieve Server" to "SMTP server"
>    o  add the new section "Internationalized email domain"
>    o  move and refine the section "Firewall"
>    o  update and refine the texts of this document
> 
>  thanks a lot to S.  Moonesamy for his kind comments to last
> version.

I have skimmed quickly through this version and find two main
issues.  There are also some less significant ones, but, until
the main ones are addressed, I don't think the others are
important.

(1) You indicate that the people you asked, or included in the
tests, want internationalized addresses.  I assume that is true,
but you cannot claim the experiments you have performed as proof
of it unless you describe the population you have sampled,
describe who they were trying to communicate with and how well
they understand the negative aspects of mixed environments, and
so on.

To state this more usefully, I think we all believe that
non-ASCII email addresses are useful and important despite some
disadvantages (otherwise we wouldn't be spending time on this).
At least most of us believe that they are going to be a lot more
useful in homogeneous environments (e.g., a Chinese user
communicating with another Chinese user) than in heterogeneous
ones (e.g., a Chinese user communicating with an Arabic user).
While the protocols may work equally well in both cases, the
opportunities for confusion, phishing, and various bad practices
will be much greater in practice in the heterogeneous ones than
in the homogeneous ones.

Whether we have downgrading or not, whether all systems have
been upgraded to EAI or not, I think we also understand that EAI
is going to lead to an increase in undeliverable mail -- that is
just the nature of alternate representation forms in Unicode--
although Chinese characters used to write Putonghua may be less
affected by these problems than scripts that utilize combining
characters, decorations that may be considered optional, or many
compatibility characters ... or languages for which standardized
orthographies either do not exist or are not widely accepted.

My own guess is that, if a user of one language (and script)
wants to communicate with a user of a very different language,
they will be better off using ASCII addresses for many years in
the future.  Only in the homogeneous cases will there be
reasonable odds of all of the facilities that are not part of
the protocols but that are required for a user perception that
i18mail really works (e.g., font availability, keyboard
compatibility, and ability by the user to conveniently read and
write the relevant language).  Whether you agree or disagree
with that, this document should, IMO, at least discuss the
issues.

Again speaking personally, I will consider i18nemail to be a
huge success if it merely enables better communication within
language communities.  Any enhancements to communication between
such communities would be wonderful, but are not critical to
success and may not even be especially important (you should be
able to deduce my reasoning from the comments above).   Let's
not try to lead the community into disappointment by setting
expectations higher than necessary and appropriate.

(2) Ernie's tests seem to show a rather different picture of
consistent and interoperable behavior, especially where
downgrading is involved, than I would deduce from the very
optimistic Section 10 of this document.  I think this document
needs to be accurate and portray the bad news as well as the
good news.  Without that, it will be impossible for people to
properly evaluate the EAI and make plans without having nasty
surprises.  It would be ok from my standpoint if you described
the bad situations and then explained what was necessary to
avoid them, but something should be said.  In particular, if the
only way to avoid bad effects is for everyone who wants to deal
with i18nemail at all to fully implement the EAI specs, then
that is very important information for us all to have.  I
encourage you to collaborate with Ernie in this area if at all
possible.

regards,
   john


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From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: Ernie Dainow <edainow@ca.afilias.info>
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Cc: EAI <ima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [EAI] Downgrade testing
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On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 09:56:35PM +0200,
 Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr> wrote 
 a message of 26 lines which said:

> You can test against various auto-responders which send you back your
> message (if you know other email addresses of auto-responders, do not
> hesitate to publish them).

By the way, does anyone know a RFC 5336 auto-responder, one which does
not require downgrade?

From yaojk@cnnic.cn  Thu Jul  9 20:19:46 2009
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From: "YAO Jiankang" <yaojk@cnnic.cn>
To: "John C Klensin" <klensin@jck.com>, "EAI WG" <ima@ietf.org>
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Email Address Internationalization Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Guidelines for Internationalized Email Clients
	Author(s)       : E. Dainow, K. Fujiwara
	Filename        : draft-ietf-eai-email-clients-00.txt
	Pages           : 16
	Date            : 2009-07-10

This document provides some guidelines for email clients that support 
Email Address Internationalization (EAI) as outlined in RFC 4952. A 
number of interoperability cases between different versions of email 
components are reviewed. Recommendations are made to improve 
 
 
 interoperability and usability and to minimize discrepancies between 
the display of composed and received email in different language 
environments.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eai-email-clients-00.txt

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From harald@alvestrand.no  Sun Jul 12 13:55:27 2009
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From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
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To: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
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Cc: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>, "ima@ietf.org" <ima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [EAI] POP/IMAP authentication?
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Alexey Melnikov skrev:
> Hi Shawn,
>
> Shawn Steele wrote:
>>
>> I’m leaving my comfort area J
>>
>>  
>>
>> Replying to Yao Jiankang’s draft, it occurred to me that the 
>> alt-address probably needs to be allowed on authentication for email 
>> accounts during the “transition period”.  So if I have a Unicode 
>> address for my EAI mailbox, I may need to use the alt-address to 
>> logon from my non-EAI-aware IMAP/POP client (might take a while to 
>> update my phone).  I didn’t see that discussed in a quick peek at the 
>> IMAP/POP drafts.
>>
> Authentication identities used by IMAP/POP servers don't have to look 
> like email addresses at all (whether they are ASCII only or EAI email 
> addresses).
> In practice they frequently are, but this is an implementation detail. 
> For example IMAP doesn't prevent use of LDAP DNs as authentication 
> identities.
On my home mailserver, where my mail address is "harald", my login 
identity is "hta".
On my Google mailserver, where my mail address is "hta@google.com", my 
login identity is "hta@google.com".

I don't think we need to say anything about the relationship between 
those entities in the EAI documents.
>
>
> RFC 5255, section 5.1 talks a bit about UTF-8 authentication 
> identities (userids). I suppose EAI IMAP document needs to say that it 
> is updating RFC 5255.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> IMA mailing list
> IMA@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima


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From root@core3.amsl.com  Mon Jul 13 03:00:04 2009
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Email Address Internationalization Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Internationalized Delivery Status and Disposition Notifications
	Author(s)       : C. Newman, A. Melnikov
	Filename        : draft-ietf-eai-dsnbis-01.txt
	Pages           : 17
	Date            : 2009-07-13

Delivery status notifications (DSNs) are critical to the correct
operation of an email system.  However, the existing Draft Standards
(RFC 3461, RFC 3462, RFC 3464) are presently limited to US-ASCII text
in the machine-readable portions of the protocol.  This specification
adds a new address type for international email addresses so an
original recipient address with non-US-ASCII characters can be
correctly preserved even after downgrading.  This also provides
updated content return media types for delivery status notifications
and message disposition notifications to support use of the new
address type.

This document experimentally extends RFC 3461, RFC 3464, and RFC
3798.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eai-dsnbis-01.txt

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From alexey.melnikov@isode.com  Mon Jul 13 03:01:48 2009
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Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:

>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
>This draft is a work item of the Email Address Internationalization Working Group of the IETF.
>
>
>	Title           : Internationalized Delivery Status and Disposition Notifications
>	Author(s)       : C. Newman, A. Melnikov
>	Filename        : draft-ietf-eai-dsnbis-01.txt
>	Pages           : 17
>	Date            : 2009-07-13
>  
>
This is just a simple refresh of the document.


From harald@alvestrand.no  Mon Jul 13 05:58:29 2009
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This is the first of 3 WG Last Calls on EAI documents.

The Last Call runs for 3 weeks - from July 13 to Monday, August 3, 2009, 
to allow for IETF week.

As usual:

- If you have an ISSUE with the document, write a mail to the mailing 
list with the subject line of ISSUE: IMAP - description (preferably with 
section number)

- If you have an editorial correction, send it with a subject line of 
EDITORIAL: IMAP to the mailing list, or send it directly to the author.

- Do NOT raise new issues in replies to other messages. They will not be 
tracked.

With hopes of completing this task quickly

          Harald Alvestrand



From harald@alvestrand.no  Mon Jul 13 05:59:19 2009
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This is the second of 3 WG Last Calls on EAI documents.

The Last Call runs for 3 weeks - from July 13 to Monday, August 3, 2009, 
to allow for IETF week.

As usual:

- If you have an ISSUE with the document, write a mail to the mailing 
list with the subject line of ISSUE: POP - description (preferably with 
section number)

- If you have an editorial correction, send it with a subject line of 
EDITORIAL: POP to the mailing list, or send it directly to the author.

- Do NOT raise new issues in replies to other messages. They will not be 
tracked.

With hopes of completing this task quickly

          Harald Alvestrand


From harald@alvestrand.no  Mon Jul 13 06:00:03 2009
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This is the third of 3 WG Last Calls on EAI documents.

The Last Call runs for 3 weeks - from July 13 to Monday, August 3, 2009, 
to allow for IETF week.

As usual:

- If you have an ISSUE with the document, write a mail to the mailing 
list with the subject line of ISSUE: DISPLAY - description (preferably 
with section number)

- If you have an editorial correction, send it with a subject line of 
EDITORIAL: DISPLAY to the mailing list, or send it directly to the author.

- Do NOT raise new issues in replies to other messages. They will not be 
tracked.

With hopes of completing this task quickly

          Harald Alvestrand


From Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com  Mon Jul 13 11:01:41 2009
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
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From alexey.melnikov@isode.com  Mon Jul 13 14:52:02 2009
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Hi Shawn,

Shawn Steele wrote:

>I was wondering if there were any thoughts about rechartering and any standards-track schedule.  The info on http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/eai-charter.html is clearly out of date :)
>
>In particular, I've heard that China is interested in publishing Chinese standards based on the experimental RFCs already released by this working group (I've heard they intend to publish in November.)  It seems like it'd be good if there were standards-track RFCs that addressed the Chinese standards' topics at least in-progress by then.
>  
>
Thank you for the information.

I think the WG is going to be discussing rechartering-related topics at 
length in Stockholm.


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Thread-Topic: [EAI] Rechartering
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 11:19:15 -0400
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From: Barry Leiba <barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com>
To: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [EAI] POP/IMAP authentication?
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I think what Shawn's getting at, which Alexey and Harald haven't
addressed and which Shawn might not be making clear, isn't so much the
connection between the IMAP login and the email address as it is the
idea of limitations on, say, the user's device.

If I'm migrated to a new email address and if, in the process, I also
get a nifty new non-ASCII login (whether or not it's the same as the
email address... surely we can see that migrating both at the same
time might be a common thing), that may be OK when I'm using my
laptop, where I can enter, say, "=D0=BB=D0=B7=D1=8B=D0=B1=D0=B0" just fine.=
  But I might not
have a mobile phone yet that can enter Cyrillic letters (or Thai
characters, or whatever), and then I'd have a hard time logging in
from my mobile.

And I think Shawn's point, which I agree with if I'm getting that
right, is that it wouldn't be a bad thing to point that out and to
suggest that an ASCII version of the login be available for a
transition.  Perhaps some text vaguely like this:

---
When a user's email address is changed, it may be common -- perhaps
desirable -- to change the user's login identification as well.  It's
possible, however, that a user who gets a non-ASCII email address
might still have devices that are unable to enter a non-ASCII login
ID.  It is probably wise, therefore, to continue to accept an ASCII
version of the user's login ID -- perhaps the old one, or perhaps an
alternate ASCII version of the new one -- until the user confirms that
it is no longer necessary.
---

Barry

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To: barryleiba@computer.org, "Shawn Steele" <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 15:22:03 +0000
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: "daniel@taharlev.com" <daniel@taharlev.com>, "barryleiba@computer.org" <barryleiba@computer.org>
Thread-Topic: [EAI] POP/IMAP authentication?
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From harald@alvestrand.no  Fri Jul 17 09:46:11 2009
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Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 18:42:51 +0200
From: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
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To: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
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Shawn Steele wrote:
> That's good.  Unfortunately I can't attend :( If the WG can provide a roadmap/schedule at Stockholm, that'd help my planning efforts :)
>   
The biggest obstacle to getting a roadmap/schedule has been that we have 
very little feedback from implementors on when they expect to feel that 
they have tested the implementations in practice enough to give feedback 
on the documents.

The most critical part is getting the experience of how non-EAI users 
(and their software) react to downgraded messages.

I'm very unwilling to put up a schedule just to have a schedule - 
experience shows that this easily gets into the mode where the chair 
pushes the writers, who then write whatever is needed to get the work 
done, no matter what the "right" result should be.

We need more mail from our implementation teams.

                         Harald



From Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com  Fri Jul 17 13:31:53 2009
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Thread-Topic: [EAI] Rechartering
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From alexey.melnikov@isode.com  Sat Jul 18 13:16:56 2009
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Subject: [EAI] ISSUE: IMAP - handling of invalid SASLPrep input in usernames/passwords in Section 5
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>
> If the UTF8=USER capability is advertised, that indicates the server
> accepts UTF-8 user names and passwords and applies SASLprep [RFC4013]
> to both arguments of the LOGIN command. The server MUST reject UTF-8
> which fails to comply with the formal syntax in RFC 3629 [RFC3629].

The last sentence should also say how the server should deal with 
Unicode characters prohibited by SASLPrep.
Suggested replacement:

    The server MUST reject UTF-8 which fails to comply with the formal 
syntax in RFC 3629
    [RFC3629] or if it encounters a Unicode characters listed in section 
2.3 of RFC 4013 [RFC4013].
 


From alexey.melnikov@isode.com  Sat Jul 18 13:28:21 2009
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Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 21:21:41 +0100
From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
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Subject: [EAI] AD review of draft-ietf-eai-pop-06
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I am sorry I haven't followed Harald's request to post each issue in a 
separare message, but it is actually easier for me as an AD to track all 
issues in one place.

The document is in a good shape. I have mostly minor comments:

In Section 2:

>   The LANG command requests that human-readable text included in all
>   subsequent +OK and -ERR responses be localized to a language matching
>   the language range argument as described by [RFC4647].
>
I think this text needs to be clearer that it means "Basic Language 
Range" as defined in section 2.1 of RFC 4647.

> 3.1. The UTF8 Command
>
>    The octet count (size) of a message reported in a response to the
>    LIST command SHOULD match the actual number of octets sent in a RETR
>    response.  Sizes reported elsewhere, such as in STAT responses and
>    non-standardized free-form text in positive status indicators
>    (following "+OK") need not be accurate, but it is preferable if they
>    are.

I would like to hear some justification for returning inaccurate sizes 
(and for the SHOULD instead of a MUST).

> 3.2. USER Argument to UTF8 Capability
>
>    If the USER argument is included with this capability, it indicates
>    that the server accepts UTF-8 user names and passwords and applies
>    SASLprep [RFC4013] to the arguments of the AUTH, USER, PASS and APOP
>    commands.  A client that supports APOP and permits UTF-8 in user
>    names or passwords MUST also implement SASLprep [RFC4013] on the user
>    name and password used to compute the APOP digest.

I think the last sentence should read:

  A client that supports APOP and permits UTF-8 in user
   names or passwords MUST apply SASLprep [RFC4013] to the user
   name and password used to compute the APOP digest.

Also, the document is missing a statement about what should be done 
about Unicode characters disallowed by SASLPrep.
So, I would recommend adding the following sentence:

   The server MUST reject UTF-8 user names/password which fails to comply
   with the formal syntax in RFC 3629 [RFC3629] or if it encounters a 
Unicode
   characters listed in section 2.3 of RFC 4013 [RFC4013].

>    The client does not need to issue the UTF8 command prior to using
>    UTF8 in authentication.  However, clients MUST NOT use UTF8 in USER,
>    PASS, or APOP commands unless the USER argument is included with the
>    UTF8 capability.
>
>    Use of UTF8 in the AUTH command is governed by the SASL mechanism.

Should this have an Informative reference to RFC 4422?

As a side note: UTF-8 was always allowed in AUTH command, as support for 
it is required by SASL.


From lee@cnnic.cn  Sun Jul 19 02:55:49 2009
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Subject: Re: [EAI] Rechartering
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta content="text/html;charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Hi, Shawn,<br>
<br>
On behalf of CNNIC, not as co-chair of this WG, any questions are
welcome.<br>
<br>
Shawn Steele wrote:
<blockquote
 cite="mid:CAD7705D4A93814F97D3EF00790AF0B315FCA179@TK5EX14MBXC104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">We definitely want the "right" result :)  My request isn't "just to have a schedule", but rather so that there's something we can plan to.  Also, if "right" takes much longer, it won't matter.  There's a huge user segment that currently doesn't have effective email support because they aren't literate in the Latin script.  It'd be nice if those people could be enabled to experience what we take for granted, and IMHO it's worth risk of not being perfect in order to support them in the next year instead of longer.

I have two concerns regarding scheduling:

1) I hear from CNNIC that China is creating standards based on the Experimental RFCs, due to be published in November.  We may not care or approve of that behavior, but it may be a standard my products have to support, so it'd be nice if it was more in-sync with IETF.  I realize this isn't this working group's problem, but it does impact the behavior of mail in China.
  </pre>
</blockquote>
You have the right information that there are official proposed
standard which are on going in China now, those Chinese standard
adopted the IETF standard on EAI totally, except for adding some
special process for Chinese characters, just for convenient of Chinese
email vendors to follow up the standard. If Microsoft decide to follow
the IETF standard, it will be okay.<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid:CAD7705D4A93814F97D3EF00790AF0B315FCA179@TK5EX14MBXC104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">
2) Several of our product units are starting to look at "vNext"  For planning purposes I have to guess about when EAI'll finally become a standard.  Mostly it comes down to "is this standard going to happen soon enough that we need to address it in this product cycle?  Or is it going to be uncertain enough that we'll punt it to next release cycle."

As you're probably aware, some products' release cycles take several years.  So if there aren't standards, or at least nearly finished drafts of standards, in the next 4-6 months, then it is likely that EAI will miss our next release cycle.  Even if we started now, it could take some time for EAI support in our products.  If this release cycle is missed, it could be 5+ YEARS before our customers see complete support.  EAI touches almost every product we make, even XBox.  It's a huge amount of work to "do it right".
  </pre>
</blockquote>
If Microsoft can adopt the EAI protocol, it will be fine for end users,
especially for Chinese users, that is why we make those RFCs into China
national industry standard.<br>
<blockquote
 cite="mid:CAD7705D4A93814F97D3EF00790AF0B315FCA179@TK5EX14MBXC104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">
I think everyone's customers need EAI support sooner rather than later, and I'm trying to build a case for earlier support, but there's no point to us working hard to build something that isn't standardized.  And it's hard for me to tell some executive "We've gotta jump on this" if the only schedule the WG has posted is obviously years behind schedule and there's no end-game in sight.

My thinking:

* Some drafts are in last-call, so that "phase" is pretty much complete.
* 1-2 months for experimenting &amp; creating the report, maybe Aug-Sept?
* Could rechartering happen in parallel?, so end of Sept?
* Then, assuming the Experimental RFC's didn't reveal any gaping holes, could they be fast tracked in 3 months or so?  Maybe by Jan 2010?

Picking months:

* August 2009 - Finish Last Calls
* August - September 2009, continue experimenting and create the report
* September 2009, Recharter for standards track.
* January 2010.  Core RFCs stable, preferably done or last-call.

If the WG doesn't think we're going to have anything by middle 2010, please let me know &amp; I'll stop bugging our product units.  I know IETF efforts are typically very slow, but I think that this schedule would be achievable, with the "right" results, IF we are willing to commit to the work and solving non-ASCII users needs sooner rather than later.

-Shawn



-----Original Message-----
From: Harald Alvestrand [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:harald@alvestrand.no">mailto:harald@alvestrand.no</a>]
Sent: Friday, July 17,  2009 9:43
To: Shawn Steele
Cc: Alexey Melnikov; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ima@ietf.org">ima@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [EAI] Rechartering

Shawn Steele wrote:
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">That's good.  Unfortunately I can't attend :( If the WG can provide a roadmap/schedule at Stockholm, that'd help my planning efforts :)

    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->The biggest obstacle to getting a roadmap/schedule has been that we have
very little feedback from implementors on when they expect to feel that
they have tested the implementations in practice enough to give feedback
on the documents.

The most critical part is getting the experience of how non-EAI users
(and their software) react to downgraded messages.

I'm very unwilling to put up a schedule just to have a schedule -
experience shows that this easily gets into the mode where the chair
pushes the writers, who then write whatever is needed to get the work
done, no matter what the "right" result should be.

We need more mail from our implementation teams.

                         Harald



_______________________________________________
IMA mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:IMA@ietf.org">IMA@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima</a>
  </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>

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Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 20:45:49 +0100
From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
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Subject: Re: [EAI] AD review of draft-ietf-eai-pop-06
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After further discussion of this document with Kurt Zeilenga:

Alexey Melnikov wrote:

>> 3.2. USER Argument to UTF8 Capability
>>
>>    If the USER argument is included with this capability, it indicates
>>    that the server accepts UTF-8 user names and passwords and applies
>>    SASLprep [RFC4013] to the arguments of the AUTH, USER, PASS and APOP
>>    commands.  A client that supports APOP and permits UTF-8 in user
>>    names or passwords MUST also implement SASLprep [RFC4013] on the user
>>    name and password used to compute the APOP digest.
>
> I think the last sentence should read:
>
>  A client that supports APOP and permits UTF-8 in user
>   names or passwords MUST apply SASLprep [RFC4013] to the user
>   name and password used to compute the APOP digest.
>
> Also, the document is missing a statement about what should be done 
> about Unicode characters disallowed by SASLPrep.
> So, I would recommend adding the following sentence:
>
>   The server MUST reject UTF-8 user names/password which fails to comply
>   with the formal syntax in RFC 3629 [RFC3629] or if it encounters a 
> Unicode
>   characters listed in section 2.3 of RFC 4013 [RFC4013].

Kurt said that SASLPrep is a MUST for both clients and servers 
implementing APOP. For USER/PASS, he suggested that SASLPrep is a SHOULD 
on the server side only (this matches SASL PLAIN mechanism).

>>    The client does not need to issue the UTF8 command prior to using
>>    UTF8 in authentication.  However, clients MUST NOT use UTF8 in USER,
>>    PASS, or APOP commands unless the USER argument is included with the
>>    UTF8 capability.
>>
>>    Use of UTF8 in the AUTH command is governed by the SASL mechanism.
>
> Should this have an Informative reference to RFC 4422?
>
> As a side note: UTF-8 was always allowed in AUTH command, as support 
> for it is required by SASL.

Please delete any references to UTF8 updating how AUTH command behave 
(this affects both sections 3 and 3.2). Each SASL mechanism describes 
how username and passwords (if any) are encoded, so the current text in 
EAI-POP3 can be read as conflicting with this.


From klensin@jck.com  Sun Jul 19 13:55:29 2009
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From: John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com>
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--On Friday, July 17, 2009 8:32 PM +0000 Shawn Steele 
<Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com> wrote:

> We definitely want the "right" result :)  My request isn't
> "just to have a schedule", but rather so that there's
> something we can plan to.  Also, if "right" takes much longer,
> it won't matter.  There's a huge user segment that currently
> doesn't have effective email support because they aren't
> literate in the Latin script.  It'd be nice if those people
> could be enabled to experience what we take for granted, and
> IMHO it's worth risk of not being perfect in order to support
> them in the next year instead of longer.
>...

Shawn,

Personal opinion only...

First, we know from the IDNA experience what the costs are of 
getting into a hurry because of some real or imagined deadline, 
taking shortcuts about decision-making, and getting things even 
a little bit wrong.  We discover that those decisions cause 
problems somewhere, problems that are serious to some 
communities who very much need to have them fixed.  And then we 
find that discussions of fixing them cause someone to say, 
essentially, "no matter how bad the earlier decision was, we 
cannot make an incompatible change, so that community just 
loses".  In the long term, that sort of situation costs us 
global interoperability and everyone loses.

That said, there are conceptually two design elements in the EAI 
work.  On has to do with the basic idea of non-ASCII addresses, 
header fields, and related information.   It is relatively 
straightforward and, although I think more testing is needed, 
all of the evidence so far is that it just works between EAI 
implementations (and communication with non-EAI implementations 
gets handled the same way any "the server doesn't support the 
capability you need" situation --with the exception of 
8BITMIME-- is handled, and that model is very well tested).

The other is the idea of downgrading.  It involves exploration 
of a new area -- new syntax in addresses, new header fields, 
comments that aren't quite comments, header fields with closer 
relationships to other header fields than we are usually 
comfortable about, non-obvious rules about when downgrading is 
permitted, and so on.  We've got some empirical evidence from 
Ernie's tests that different implementations interpret the 
specification a bit differently and that some combinations of 
systems will lose information.

Before the WG can meaningfully move toward standardization, we 
have to sort the downgrading issue out.  If there is strong 
consensus one way or the other as to what to do, then I think we 
can move forward quickly.   If there isn't, we will will 
probably need a lot of empirical evidence about what works and 
what doesn't, what needs respecification, and so on.  That is 
going to take time, especially if we continue at our current 
pace.

In particular, with the understanding that I am not proposing or 
recommending this and don't favor it, suppose the WG reached 
agreement in the next few weeks that speed was more important 
than a downgrade capability, independent of what various of us 
believe about whether downgrading could be sorted out in the 
long run and about how useful it would be.  We'd need to look 
carefully at the IMAP and POP documents, but excising 
downgrading from the rest would be fairly straightforward and 
the dominant concern for "use the experimental docs and 
implementations to see if this can really work in the hostile 
real email world" would vanish.  I'd guess that, if the various 
authors got motivated and moving, we could have a charter 
modified for standards track and updated documents that were 90% 
final by Hiroshima.

But, we keep downgrading in the program and if testing continues 
to be as leisurely as it has been in the past, with results that 
are as ambiguous, it may be a long time.

I note that, while you've made your wishes clear, you haven't 
offered to get a test implementation together on a platform 
entirely different from the ones that have been used so far and 
then both make that test platform available for interoperability 
testing and do significant testing yourself/yourselves.  That is 
the sort of action that would help things move forward more 
quickly.

again, just my opinion.
    john



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> The last sentence should also say how the server should deal with Unicode
> characters prohibited by SASLPrep.
> Suggested replacement:
>
> =A0 The server MUST reject UTF-8 which fails to comply with the formal sy=
ntax
> in RFC 3629
> =A0 [RFC3629] or if it encounters a Unicode characters listed in section =
2.3
> of RFC 4013 [RFC4013].

Makes sense to me.

Barry

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>> =A0 The octet count (size) of a message reported in a response to the
>> =A0 LIST command SHOULD match the actual number of octets sent in a RETR
>> =A0 response. =A0Sizes reported elsewhere, such as in STAT responses and
>> =A0 non-standardized free-form text in positive status indicators
>> =A0 (following "+OK") need not be accurate, but it is preferable if they
>> =A0 are.
>
> I would like to hear some justification for returning inaccurate sizes (a=
nd
> for the SHOULD instead of a MUST).

It may be that a conversion has to be made in order to get an accurate
size.  Perhaps an implementation would be well advised to go ahead and
do the conversion as soon as the size is needed, and then cache the
converted document until the RETR is done, but that might not be
practical (suppose a LIST is listing 5000 messages; the server can't
really convert all 5000 for the list command, and it'd likely then
have to re-convert the ones that are actually retrieved).

The SHOULD (and the permission to be inaccurate in other responses)
gives an "out" to the server, allowing it to reserve the expensive
processing for when the message is actually retrieved.

Because clients have to be changed to ask for this anyway, those
clients can also understand that they have to deal with a retrieval
that might be larger than they were led to expect, and they can code
for it.

Barry

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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com>, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
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I appreciate the concerns about moving too fast, and I don't disagree with =
your assessment of the risk.

My concern is the standardization of UTF-8 email in China.  I'd rather that=
 the IETF standards, including downgrade, were compatible with China's stan=
dards.  Otherwise we could end up with a de-facto standard of whatever Chin=
a is (or isn't) doing with downgrade.

I'm also concerned that the quirks of downgrade aren't going to be very dis=
coverable in an laboratory setting :(.  I don't foresee any problems that c=
an't be corrected with the current approach to downgrade, however it's the =
unforeseen that's the problem.  At the leisurely pace it's been proceeding,=
 I'm afraid that the industry won't wait for the working group, particularl=
y if the Chinese standards proceed without the IETF WG standards.

I also fear a Chinese EAI standard without downgrade more than a downgrade =
with quirks.  Also, hopefully, "downgrade" will eventually stop being used,=
 so even if it's really bad, at least it should be limited :)

So IMO moving cautiously/slowly is also a risk, and it's rapidly becoming a=
 larger risk than the proposed documents in their current state.  I'm aware=
 of at least 2 other attempts/approaches to "international email" that were=
 shot down/deferred to wait for a real EAI standard from the IETF.  I doubt=
 the users in those communities will wait forever.

-Shawn

________________________________________
From: John C Klensin [klensin@jck.com]
Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 1:55 PM
To: Shawn Steele; Harald Alvestrand
Cc: ima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [EAI] Rechartering

--On Friday, July 17, 2009 8:32 PM +0000 Shawn Steele
<Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com> wrote:

> We definitely want the "right" result :)  My request isn't
> "just to have a schedule", but rather so that there's
> something we can plan to.  Also, if "right" takes much longer,
> it won't matter.  There's a huge user segment that currently
> doesn't have effective email support because they aren't
> literate in the Latin script.  It'd be nice if those people
> could be enabled to experience what we take for granted, and
> IMHO it's worth risk of not being perfect in order to support
> them in the next year instead of longer.
>...

Shawn,

Personal opinion only...

First, we know from the IDNA experience what the costs are of
getting into a hurry because of some real or imagined deadline,
taking shortcuts about decision-making, and getting things even
a little bit wrong.  We discover that those decisions cause
problems somewhere, problems that are serious to some
communities who very much need to have them fixed.  And then we
find that discussions of fixing them cause someone to say,
essentially, "no matter how bad the earlier decision was, we
cannot make an incompatible change, so that community just
loses".  In the long term, that sort of situation costs us
global interoperability and everyone loses.

That said, there are conceptually two design elements in the EAI
work.  On has to do with the basic idea of non-ASCII addresses,
header fields, and related information.   It is relatively
straightforward and, although I think more testing is needed,
all of the evidence so far is that it just works between EAI
implementations (and communication with non-EAI implementations
gets handled the same way any "the server doesn't support the
capability you need" situation --with the exception of
8BITMIME-- is handled, and that model is very well tested).

The other is the idea of downgrading.  It involves exploration
of a new area -- new syntax in addresses, new header fields,
comments that aren't quite comments, header fields with closer
relationships to other header fields than we are usually
comfortable about, non-obvious rules about when downgrading is
permitted, and so on.  We've got some empirical evidence from
Ernie's tests that different implementations interpret the
specification a bit differently and that some combinations of
systems will lose information.

Before the WG can meaningfully move toward standardization, we
have to sort the downgrading issue out.  If there is strong
consensus one way or the other as to what to do, then I think we
can move forward quickly.   If there isn't, we will will
probably need a lot of empirical evidence about what works and
what doesn't, what needs respecification, and so on.  That is
going to take time, especially if we continue at our current
pace.

In particular, with the understanding that I am not proposing or
recommending this and don't favor it, suppose the WG reached
agreement in the next few weeks that speed was more important
than a downgrade capability, independent of what various of us
believe about whether downgrading could be sorted out in the
long run and about how useful it would be.  We'd need to look
carefully at the IMAP and POP documents, but excising
downgrading from the rest would be fairly straightforward and
the dominant concern for "use the experimental docs and
implementations to see if this can really work in the hostile
real email world" would vanish.  I'd guess that, if the various
authors got motivated and moving, we could have a charter
modified for standards track and updated documents that were 90%
final by Hiroshima.

But, we keep downgrading in the program and if testing continues
to be as leisurely as it has been in the past, with results that
are as ambiguous, it may be a long time.

I note that, while you've made your wishes clear, you haven't
offered to get a test implementation together on a platform
entirely different from the ones that have been used so far and
then both make that test platform available for interoperability
testing and do significant testing yourself/yourselves.  That is
the sort of action that would help things move forward more
quickly.

again, just my opinion.
    john

From chl@clerew.man.ac.uk  Tue Jul 21 07:12:43 2009
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On Tue, 21 Jul 2009 07:37:18 +0100, Shawn Steele  
<Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com> wrote:

> I'm also concerned that the quirks of downgrade aren't going to be very  
> discoverable in an laboratory setting :(.  I don't foresee any problems  
> that can't be corrected with the current approach to downgrade, however  
> it's the unforeseen that's the problem.  At the leisurely pace it's been  
> proceeding, I'm afraid that the industry won't wait for the working  
> group, particularly if the Chinese standards proceed without the IETF WG  
> standards.

I see no problem if the Chinese were to issue a standard without  
downgrade, provided it was otherwise compatible with the format we have  
decided.

Ideally, the IETF should standardise RFC 5335 now, so that all the  
necessary headers etc get defined and we have a fixed email format (a  
plain upgrade of RFC 5332), with the downgrade standard to follow later.  
Of course that is not possible with the documents worded as they are now,  
but there must be some way to achieve that effect. That would send a clear  
signal that internationalised email is fixed THAT WAY, and a few  
subsequent trimmings of the downgrade machanism within that framework  
should not cause problem (especially as downgrade may well disappear in  
the Long Term).

So if that is, in essence, what the Chinese standard is going to do, then  
why not?

> I also fear a Chinese EAI standard without downgrade more than a  
> downgrade with quirks.  Also, hopefully, "downgrade" will eventually  
> stop being used, so even if it's really bad, at least it should be  
> limited :)

-- 
Charles�H.�Lindsey�---------At�Home,�doing�my�own�thing------------------------
Tel:�+44�161�436�6131�                      
���Web:�http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email:�chl@clerew.man.ac.uk������Snail:�5�Clerewood�Ave,�CHEADLE,�SK8�3JU,�U.K.
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--On Tuesday, 21 July, 2009 06:37 +0000 Shawn Steele
<Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com> wrote:

> I appreciate the concerns about moving too fast, and I don't
> disagree with your assessment of the risk.
>=20
> My concern is the standardization of UTF-8 email in China.
> I'd rather that the IETF standards, including downgrade, were
> compatible with China's standards.  Otherwise we could end up
> with a de-facto standard of whatever China is (or isn't) doing
> with downgrade.

Well, I don't know how to go much further in speculation in that
direction.  There are people on the list, including the
co-Chair, who presumably know what is going on with Chinese
standardization efforts and they can speak up if they consider
that appropriate.

There are a number of areas in which we've discovered, in more
ways than I (at least) would have initially predicted, that
Chinese is different from other scripts.   Some of them, like
the effects of Han unification and SC/TC relationships, are
perhaps artifacts of Unicode coding decisions, others are more
basic.  It is more difficult in some ways, and easier in others.
Almost every time someone has extrapolated from CJK to other
scripts or in the other direction, they have gotten themselves
into trouble. =20

That doesn't change your basic concern, but is an extra argument
why we should proceed with due caution and why an international
standard might be very different from one for use within China
for communication among those who are Chinese-literate.   I
think our Chinese colleagues have recognized that distinction
from the beginning and, again, can speak for themselves.

> I'm also concerned that the quirks of downgrade aren't going
> to be very discoverable in an laboratory setting :(. =20

We share that concern.  It is why the "testing" I'm most anxious
to see involves turning EAI loose in the general Internet email
environment and seeing what happens.  That is exactly the kind
of testing Ernie has been trying to do.   While the specific
problems that have been identified can be fixed (some may
require revisiting documents to be sure we all really intend the
same thing), the trend is not encouraging even after only a
handful of tests.

> I don't
> foresee any problems that can't be corrected with the current
> approach to downgrade, however it's the unforeseen that's the
> problem.  At the leisurely pace it's been proceeding, I'm
> afraid that the industry won't wait for the working group,
> particularly if the Chinese standards proceed without the IETF
> WG standards.

While I'm actually anxious to move this along as quickly as we
reasonably can, at this point, I can only remind you and others
about the success rate of proprietary (and even national and
regional) email models and standards that do no interoperate
smoothly with the existing Internet base.  I'm sure you, or
those around you, remember both MSMail and the original,
incompatible with even X.400, Exchange Server model.  Harald
doesn't need to be reminded about X.400 itself, and that list
goes on and on.

> I also fear a Chinese EAI standard without downgrade more than
> a downgrade with quirks.  Also, hopefully, "downgrade" will
> eventually stop being used, so even if it's really bad, at
> least it should be limited :)

See above above "quirks".  And, whether "downgrade" is used or
not,  it makes  sufficient changes to the fundamental syntax of
Internet email addresses, and sufficient requirements on systems
processing headers, that it will be with us forever even if no
one is actually using it.  Conversely, it makes implementation
of i18n mail sufficiently more difficult that we just can't
estimate whether having it will speed deployment (by making it
slightly easier for EAI-compliant systems to communicate with
legacy ones) or slow it (by making implementation and deployment
of EAI-compliant systems much more difficult.   The issue with
implementation and deployment are pervasive and may extend into
things that the documents don't talk about.  For example, the
typical address book today maps a name onto one email address
(or maybe "home" and "work" email addresses).  EAI downgrading
essentially requires that address book support more than one
address with the same role.  Is that a big deal?  I don't know--
it will certainly depend on the address book design.  But it is
almost certainly going to require more work than simply making
provision for the existing fields to be in UTF-8 and more
instruction to the user about what is going on.   Part of that
discussion is closely related to one we are having in the
IDNABIS context, which is how much we really expect users to
know and adapt to in order to keep computer systems and networks
happy.  I don't know the answer, but, unlike a few years ago,  I
now suspect that alternate addresses in the protocol will put
more of a knowledge burden on users than just having messages
returned if non-ASCII address doesn't go through. =20

As another example of a side effect of the downgrading
architecture, consider the huge number of web sites out there
that ask for email addresses.  We know that many of them,
probably a majority, can't even get a local part that contains a
"+"-delimited subaddress right.  Can they be converted to handle
UTF-8 local parts?  I think so, but, for some systems, it will
require more work and education than we probably anticipate.
But I personally think that the odds of getting a site that
can't manage "john+ietf@bogus.domain.name" to be able to handle=20
  <=D0=B8=D0=B2=D0=B0=D0=BD@bogus.domain.name =
<john@bogus.domain.name>>
within my lifetime are pretty small -- the pointed brackets will
be rejected, the alternate address will confuse it beyond any
hope, etc.   On the other hand, I think a simple
   =D0=B8=D0=B2=D0=B0=D0=BD@bogus.domain.name
will work before I convince them to handle that "+".

> So IMO moving cautiously/slowly is also a risk, and it's
> rapidly becoming a larger risk than the proposed documents in
> their current state.  I'm aware of at least 2 other
> attempts/approaches to "international email" that were shot
> down/deferred to wait for a real EAI standard from the IETF.
> I doubt the users in those communities will wait forever.

Sure.  But see above.

I'm actually getting very sympathetic to the idea in Charles's
note of doing the rest and then letting downgrading sort itself
out later.  But, in practice, I think that dooms downgrading, at
least along the lines of the current specification.   Without
it, we get to simplify the syntax to make i18n address syntax
just traditional syntax with non-ASCII characters -- not only
does the alternate address syntax go away but so does the
requirement for brackets, etc.  Syntactically, SMTP is actually
pretty easy either way.  But, once you get the provisions for
downgrading out of the syntax of addresses in the mail headers
--and, in practical terms, the addresses that users see-- those
extensions are, in practice, probably gone for good: it won't be
easy to put them back in if systems don't even recognize the
syntax as valid.

But, to partially agree with Charles and say it differently, I
think one can have "quick" without Downgrade or somewhat more
slowly (a lot more slowly if the WG continues at its recent
pace) with it.   I don't have any idea how to choose but I am
determined that, if we have Downgrading, it will be "right" and
its interoperability and implementation characters well-tested
and understood.

    john


     john


From alexey.melnikov@isode.com  Wed Jul 22 06:39:32 2009
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Barry Leiba wrote:

>>>  The octet count (size) of a message reported in a response to the
>>>  LIST command SHOULD match the actual number of octets sent in a RETR
>>>  response.  Sizes reported elsewhere, such as in STAT responses and
>>>  non-standardized free-form text in positive status indicators
>>>  (following "+OK") need not be accurate, but it is preferable if they
>>>  are.
>>>      
>>>
>>I would like to hear some justification for returning inaccurate sizes (and
>>for the SHOULD instead of a MUST).
>>    
>>
>It may be that a conversion has to be made in order to get an accurate
>size.  Perhaps an implementation would be well advised to go ahead and
>do the conversion as soon as the size is needed, and then cache the
>converted document until the RETR is done, but that might not be
>practical (suppose a LIST is listing 5000 messages; the server can't
>really convert all 5000 for the list command, and it'd likely then
>have to re-convert the ones that are actually retrieved).
>
>The SHOULD (and the permission to be inaccurate in other responses)
>gives an "out" to the server, allowing it to reserve the expensive
>processing for when the message is actually retrieved.
>
>Because clients have to be changed to ask for this anyway, those
>clients can also understand that they have to deal with a retrieval
>that might be larger than they were led to expect, and they can code
>for it.
>  
>
Note that in IMAP we decided to always return exact sizes. This is true 
for the base IMAP spec and for the CONVERT extension, which is similar 
to what EAI POP3 servers might be doing.

If we want to keep the SHOULD, your last point ("Because clients have to 
be changed to ask for this anyway") needs to be explicitly spelled out. 
I am not sure how existing clients are using results of the LIST 
command. I also think that in this case the document needs to say that 
messages sizes MUST be consistent (i.e. for a given message the server 
must return the same size in LIST all the time).


From Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com  Wed Jul 22 18:17:06 2009
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com>, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Thread-Topic: [EAI] Rechartering
Thread-Index: AQHKBv5CbMAbFBG94EaF4/MwRhfNZ5B6JnbwgAOnXACAAbym4IABPgoAgAGNVes=
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 01:16:14 +0000
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>> I'm also concerned that the quirks of downgrade aren't going
>> to be very discoverable in an laboratory setting :(.

>We share that concern.  It is why the "testing" I'm most anxious
>to see involves turning EAI loose in the general Internet email
>environment and seeing what happens.

On a Windows PC that pretty much involves "everything".  OpenType apparentl=
y even has a field for an email address.  I can see some partial tests bein=
g possible, but I can't imagine that a full test of "everything" would be f=
easible, unfortunately.  (I can see where I could talk myself into a corner=
 here, I don't mean to not be careful, I just mean that we aren't going to =
catch everything.)

> But I personally think that the odds of getting a site that
> can't manage "john+ietf@bogus.domain.name" to be able to handle
> <=C9=D7=C1=CE@bogus.domain.name <john@bogus.domain.name>>
> within my lifetime are pretty small.

I'd agree, but john@bogus.domain.name should still work :)0

So, I pretty much agree with your points, but you aren't giving me much hop=
e of EAI being adaquate to those criteria in the next decade.  I still thin=
k some sort of schedule would be interesting to help us figure out how to p=
roceed in addressing your concerns.

-Shawn

From harald@alvestrand.no  Wed Jul 22 22:51:00 2009
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Subject: [EAI] Test - driven schedule (Re:  Rechartering)
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Shawn Steele wrote:
>   
>> But I personally think that the odds of getting a site that
>> can't manage "john+ietf@bogus.domain.name" to be able to handle
>> <����@bogus.domain.name <john@bogus.domain.name>>
>> within my lifetime are pretty small.
>>     
>
> I'd agree, but john@bogus.domain.name should still work :)0
>
> So, I pretty much agree with your points, but you aren't giving me much hope of EAI being adaquate to those criteria in the next decade.  I still think some sort of schedule would be interesting to help us figure out how to proceed in addressing your concerns.
>   
Would it be interetsing to (for at least 5 minutes) explore the idea of 
a test-driven schedule, rather than a calendar-driven one?

That is, specify a number of criteria that should be met before 
standards-track, and see if we can work backwards:

tests that need to be done -> people volunteering for the work -> 
reasonable schedule?

                    Harald


From Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com  Wed Jul 22 23:26:46 2009
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Thread-Topic: Test - driven schedule (Re: [EAI] Rechartering)
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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 06:25:51 +0000
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Yes, that would be good :)  Especially understanding which criteria people =
feel are necessary, some could be assumed and people could have different v=
iews.

I wasn't trying to suggest that a schedule must fit a certain date.  There =
are possibly dates I have to make decisions by, but that shouldn't drive a =
schedule.  Any schedule would help me understand if EAI is going to take an=
other 6 months, year, or 10 years :)  And if a schedule misses milestones, =
then it still helps understand how long the process may take.

Also your suggestion is good because if people feel that when such a schedu=
le is derived it is "too slow", then maybe it'll be clear what could be don=
e to speed it up.  (like maybe whomever feels it isn't happening enough cou=
ld step up as volunteers.)

-Shawn

________________________________________
From: Harald Alvestrand [harald@alvestrand.no]
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 10:49 PM
To: Shawn Steele
Cc: John C Klensin; ima@ietf.org
Subject: Test - driven schedule (Re: [EAI] Rechartering)

Shawn Steele wrote:
>
>> But I personally think that the odds of getting a site that
>> can't manage "john+ietf@bogus.domain.name" to be able to handle
>> <=C9=D7=C1=CE@bogus.domain.name <john@bogus.domain.name>>
>> within my lifetime are pretty small.
>>
>
> I'd agree, but john@bogus.domain.name should still work :)0
>
> So, I pretty much agree with your points, but you aren't giving me much h=
ope of EAI being adaquate to those criteria in the next decade.  I still th=
ink some sort of schedule would be interesting to help us figure out how to=
 proceed in addressing your concerns.
>
Would it be interetsing to (for at least 5 minutes) explore the idea of
a test-driven schedule, rather than a calendar-driven one?

That is, specify a number of criteria that should be met before
standards-track, and see if we can work backwards:

tests that need to be done -> people volunteering for the work ->
reasonable schedule?

                    Harald

From yaojk@cnnic.cn  Thu Jul 23 01:24:59 2009
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From chl@clerew.man.ac.uk  Thu Jul 23 04:14:48 2009
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From: "Charles Lindsey" <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: [EAI] Rechartering
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Seems I sent my mail to John directly, rather than to the list. Here it  
is, together with his reply and my further views.

On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 16:58:11 +0100, John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com> wrote:

> --On Wednesday, 22 July, 2009 10:42 +0100 Charles Lindsey
> <chl@clerew.man.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> What I had in mind was that the headers document (and probably
>> the smtp one as well) would fix the syntax of addresses with
>> alternatives (extra <...> and all). So any future work on
>> downgrade would have to live with that syntax. If that
>> syntactic change is to happen at all, it needs to happen NOW
>> because, as John points out, an awful lot of systems all over
>> the place are going to have to learn to allow it (at least to
>> the extent that they accept it and store it and/or pass it on
>> to further systems as an opaque bundle, even if they cannot
>> make use of it themselves).
>
> That is plausible.  However, the syntax change is a huge price
> to pay in terms of difficulty of changing systems and
> reeducating users unless it is going to support a downgrade
> mechanism that works and is significantly useful.   So I can't
> agree that changing the syntax to support downgrade without
> being sure that we have a downgrade model that we are also
> willing to standardize is a good idea.   One or the other --
> syntax change with a fully-fleshed-out and tested downgrade or
> no syntax change, no downgrade.

Sure. If we standardize the format, together with alt-addresses, then  
there must be a firm commitment to follow it up with a downgrade standard.  
But since the downgrade protocol is likely to need further tweaks, it  
could be better to leave it as Experimental until it has stablized.

I envisage that major pieces of software, such as servers, will be written  
with the downgrade part as an optional plug-in. The default plugin would  
be to "bounce everything" (which is a legitimate tactic under the present  
proposal). One up from that is a plugin that will recognize and forward it  
to the alt-address, but not much more.

Nobody wants to rewrite a full server each month, which is why the basic  
functionality must be fixed from the start. But upgrading your downgrade  
plugin (well, probably not monthly) is a task that could be more easily  
envisaged, and would be driven by the needs of the particular community  
you were trying to serve.

-- 
Charles�H.�Lindsey�---------At�Home,�doing�my�own�thing------------------------
Tel:�+44�161�436�6131�                      
���Web:�http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email:�chl@clerew.man.ac.uk������Snail:�5�Clerewood�Ave,�CHEADLE,�SK8�3JU,�U.K.
PGP:�2C15F1A9������Fingerprint:�73�6D�C2�51�93�A0�01�E7�65�E8�64�7E�14�A4�AB�A5

From klensin@jck.com  Thu Jul 23 08:42:23 2009
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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:41:29 -0400
From: John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com>
To: YAO Jiankang <yaojk@cnnic.cn>, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>, Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [EAI] Test - driven schedule (Re:  Rechartering)
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--On Thursday, July 23, 2009 16:33 +0800 YAO Jiankang
<yaojk@cnnic.cn> wrote:

> From: "Harald Alvestrand" <harald@alvestrand.no>
> To: "Shawn Steele" <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
> Cc: <ima@ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 1:49 PM
> Subject: [EAI] Test - driven schedule (Re: Rechartering)
>=20
>=20
>> Shawn Steele wrote:
>>>  =20
>>>> But I personally think that the odds of getting a site that
>>>> can't manage "john+ietf@bogus.domain.name" to be able to
>>>> handle <=D0=B8=D0=B2=D0=B0=D0=BD@bogus.domain.name =
<john@bogus.domain.name>>
>>>> within my lifetime are pretty small.
>>>>    =20
>>>=20
>>> I'd agree, but john@bogus.domain.name should still work :)0
>>>=20
>>> So, I pretty much agree with your points, but you aren't
>>> giving me much hope of EAI being adaquate to those criteria
>>> in the next decade.  I still think some sort of schedule
>>> would be interesting to help us figure out how to proceed in
>>> addressing your concerns.
>>>  =20
>> Would it be interetsing to (for at least 5 minutes) explore
>> the idea of  a test-driven schedule, rather than a
>> calendar-driven one?
>=20
> It is a good news.=20
> I think that both the test work and standard track progress
> work can be drivend in the parallel way.

I didn't see "parallel" in Harald's suggestion.  And I do think
the suggestion is a good one. =20

I think it is also worth pointing out that some of the recent
discussions on this list may suggest changes in the SMTP
extension and header specs.  Those changes may or may not be
necessary, which is another testing and thinking topic, but they
represent decisions that need to be made and it would be better
to make them with data than without.

For example, experience elsewhere (including in the IDNABIS
discussions) makes it fairly clear that either NFC or NFD
normalization is a necessity if one is going to compare two
Unicode strings.  Without one or the other, two different ways
of entering exactly the same character will not compare equal.
A given user may have only one way to enter a particular
character while another user may have only the other way
available.

That suggests that we should _at least_ recommend normalization
in the SMTP server (much as 5321 recommends case-insensitive
matching) and that we should think about requiring it.  But,
again, data would help.

     john



From klensin@jck.com  Thu Jul 23 09:00:11 2009
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From: John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com>
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--On Thursday, July 23, 2009 01:16 +0000 Shawn Steele
<Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com> wrote:

>...=20
> On a Windows PC that pretty much involves "everything".
> OpenType apparently even has a field for an email address.  I
> can see some partial tests being possible, but I can't imagine
> that a full test of "everything" would be feasible,
> unfortunately.  (I can see where I could talk myself into a
> corner here, I don't mean to not be careful, I just mean that
> we aren't going to catch everything.)

Of course not.  That would require nearly proving a universal
negative. On the other hand, one only needs to find a few
problematic cases to know that there is a problem.

Your Windows "nearly everything" example is an interesting one
simply because one of the ways of making users crazy (another
one of those intra-system examples) is that if there is not a
standard way to parse addresses that either (i)looks for a
balanced/ matching ">" rather than either getting into error
states if a "<" is encountered or getting into problems with
">>" or (ii) is sufficiently centralized in an API that
everything uses so as to be easily changed...

Then it seems to me that you are in big trouble because
deploying EAI with Downgrade --even in the syntax-only form
Charles suggests-- means that users will encounter it working
one way in some places (e.g., accepting non-ASCII addresses but
not alternate address syntax) and in other ways (e.g., accepting
non-ASCII and alternate addresses) in others, even within the
same system.   That is, IMO, much worse even that having
extended (non-ASCII) addresses work in some places but not in
others.

>> But I personally think that the odds of getting a site that
>> can't manage "john+ietf@bogus.domain.name" to be able to
>> handle <=D0=B8=D0=B2=D0=B0=D0=BD@bogus.domain.name =
<john@bogus.domain.name>>
>> within my lifetime are pretty small.
>=20
> I'd agree, but john@bogus.domain.name should still work :)0

Sure.  But unless it can be parsed out of the above, that isn't
interesting.   Note that, if one had a Unicode-native system and
simply removed the "ASCII address" restriction,
    =D0=B8=D0=B2=D0=B0=D0=BD@bogus.domain.name
would parse as the address the user would expect while
    <=D0=B8=D0=B2=D0=B0=D0=BD@bogus.domain.name =
<john@bogus.domain.name>>
would almost certainly get some sort of "invalid end of address"
or "invalid unquoted space in the middle of the address" error.
And, if it tried to "fix" that error, as many MUAs and some
other systems would, life would get interesting.

> So, I pretty much agree with your points, but you aren't
> giving me much hope of EAI being adaquate to those criteria in
> the next decade.  I still think some sort of schedule would be
> interesting to help us figure out how to proceed in addressing
> your concerns.

Again, if you are in a hurry, the key question is whether we
need downgrading.  If we don't, a large fraction of the issues
I'm raising just disappear and I have no trouble working through
a schedule (in your model) or a requirements plan (in Harald's).

    john



From Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com  Thu Jul 23 21:49:26 2009
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com>, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Thread-Topic: mailto: was RE: [EAI] Rechartering
Thread-Index: AQHKDBoA8N2XUvpvWEmPEljKeHTUeA==
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 04:48:35 +0000
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Subject: [EAI] mailto: was RE:  Rechartering
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I think we're digressing from rechartering to mailto :)

> Then it seems to me that you are in big trouble because
> deploying EAI with Downgrade --even in the syntax-only form
> Charles suggests-- means that users will encounter it working
> one way in some places (e.g., accepting non-ASCII addresses but
> not alternate address syntax) and in other ways (e.g., accepting
> non-ASCII and alternate addresses) in others, even within the
> same system.   That is, IMO, much worse even that having
> extended (non-ASCII) addresses work in some places but not in
> others.

>> I'd agree, but john@bogus.domain.name should still work :)0

> Sure.  But unless it can be parsed out of the above, that isn't
> interesting.

I disagree.  Assuming that =C9=D7=C1=CE@bogus.domain.name is your Unicode a=
lias and john@bogus.domain.name is your ASCII alias, you can always use mai=
lto:john@bogus.domain.name and it should get to you regardless of any <> or=
 whatnot.

I actually find the < > downgrade syntax fairly unlikely to be helpful.  Pr=
esumably your mail server understands the complete EAI syntax since you're =
providing both addresses.  Likewise my client knows about EAI if it underst=
ands <unicode <ASCII>>.  So pretty much the only place that <unicode <ASCII=
>> is going to gain anything is when my mail server is not EAI aware, but m=
y client and your server are EAI aware.  It seems more likely to me that my=
 server and client would both be EAI aware.  So, to me, the most likely sce=
narios would be when some in-between relay wasn't EAI aware, yet any such s=
ender or receiver side relay would necessarily be EAI aware.  Relays that a=
ren't tightly coupled with the sender/receiver side tend to be blacklisted =
anyway.

So to me, the <Unicode <ASCII>> syntax is mostly interesting merely to popu=
late my address book with both addresses.

FWIW: mailto:Unicode@Unicode on Windows+Safari/IE will invoke Outlook with =
the address as expected.  I seriously doubt we'll block that behavior, and =
I think it should be permitted in the mailto draft.

>  Note that, if one had a Unicode-native system and
> simply removed the "ASCII address" restriction,
>    =C9=D7=C1=CE@bogus.domain.name
> would parse as the address the user would expect while
>    <=C9=D7=C1=CE@bogus.domain.name <john@bogus.domain.name>>
> would almost certainly get some sort of "invalid end of address"
> or "invalid unquoted space in the middle of the address" error.
> And, if it tried to "fix" that error, as many MUAs and some
> other systems would, life would get interesting.

Pretty much my feeling.

> Again, if you are in a hurry, the key question is whether we
> need downgrading.  If we don't, a large fraction of the issues
> I'm raising just disappear and I have no trouble working through
> a schedule (in your model) or a requirements plan (in Harald's).

In mailto: I don't find downgrade very helpful.  As I said, you'd have to h=
ave an updated client anyway to handle the new syntax, while mailto:unicode=
 & mailto:ASCII are likely to work already.  I don't really object to the m=
ailto: updates because I don't really see them having any practical impact =
:) and they provide some completeness.

I think downgrade is primarily interesting when I send mail from an EAI awa=
re client to an EAI unaware client.  In that case the mail is downgraded an=
d the recipient is able to reply to me.  In nearly every other case either =
the user has a Unicode address that may or may not work, or an ASCII addres=
s that works.  I think the downgrade behavior in this scenario is fairly co=
mplete.

So I think we pretty much sort of agree.  You think that without downgrade =
the experimental RFCs are somewhat stable.  I agree.  You ask if I think do=
wngrade is required.  I'd split that out into downgrade when I send a mail,=
 and "the rest of downgrade."  Downgrade when mailing from an EAI aware sys=
tem to an EAI unaware system is useful and also somewhat reasonably defined=
, and I'd include that in my stable behavior.  mailto and most of the rest =
of downgrade I think is less helpful.

The scenarios I see are:
1) EAI to EAI, in which downgrade is unhelpful
2) Me giving you a Unicode address on a post-it, in which case downgrade is=
 unhelpful (because I didn't give you the ASCII form)
3) Me giving you my ASCII address on a post-it, in which case downgrade is =
irrelevent because it's gonna work anyway.
4) Me mailing you from EAI aware to EAI unaware systems, in which case down=
grade is helpful
    a) My mail gets to you, and if you reply to me, it'll work
    b) You probably won't get my Unicode address, but that's OK, because yo=
u don't know how to use it anyway.
    c) If you happen to have a client that can upgrade my address, then you=
'll have the info to send mail to me (that'll be downgraded on the way, pro=
bably)
5) Something like mailto:
    a) It'll continue to work with a downgraded ASCII address.
    b) If it happened to work with Unicode, it'll continue to work with Uni=
code.
    c) If it doesn't work with Unicode and is EAI unaware, then downgrade w=
on't work anyway since it won't understand whatever has to happen to the pr=
otocol (like mailto)

So I think we're pretty close for the non-downgrade stuff.  For downgrade I=
 think we're pretty close for the 95% useful cases.  For the remaining down=
grade completeness stuff like mailto:, I agree that there're interesting is=
sues and I don't think they're helpful for that 5%.  So I'd go ahead and st=
andardize the non-downgrade stuff, the downgraded headers stuff, and I woul=
dn't worry about the other downgrade scenarios right now.

-Shawn

From Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com  Thu Jul 23 21:54:40 2009
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: YAO Jiankang <yaojk@cnnic.cn>, John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com>, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Thread-Topic: [EAI] Rechartering
Thread-Index: AQHKBv5CbMAbFBG94EaF4/MwRhfNZ5B6JnbwgAOnXACABQIwX4ABVhyN
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 04:48:56 +0000
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Subject: Re: [EAI] Rechartering
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> As Xiaodong has already pointed out it, China's standards will be full
> compatible with IETF EAI WG RFCs. we will also follow the downgrade
> rfc. Actually, many chinese care for the downgrade issue very much.

I think that'll "work", however the current RFCs are EXPERIMENTAL, not STAN=
DARD.  So any future RFCs need not be compatible with the experimental RFCs=
.  Should that (IMO very bad thing) happen, then the Chinese standard and t=
he IETF standards would diverge :(

I think it would be "safest" if the IETF RFCs were updated to standards fir=
st, then the Chinese standards follow those, however I don't believe that'l=
l happen in practice.  Then the IETF will have to choose to either just tur=
n the experimental RFCs into real standards with minimal changes to conform=
 to the defacto Chinese standard, or to deviate from the Chinese standard a=
nd break what might already be implimented.

- Shawn

From Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com  Thu Jul 23 21:58:05 2009
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com>, YAO Jiankang <yaojk@cnnic.cn>, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Thread-Topic: [EAI] Test - driven schedule (Re:  Rechartering)
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> That suggests that we should _at least_ recommend normalization
> in the SMTP server (much as 5321 recommends case-insensitive
> matching) and that we should think about requiring it.  But,
> again, data would help.

I think that's fairly irrelevent.  It won't break the RFCs for the rest of =
the system.  It'd only break servers that registered both NFC and NFD (or s=
imilar variations) of names.  Then they'd pretty much deserve to be broken =
:)


-Shawn

From harald@alvestrand.no  Fri Jul 24 00:29:39 2009
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Subject: [EAI] NFC/NFD (Re:  Test - driven schedule (Re:  Rechartering))
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Shawn Steele wrote:
>> That suggests that we should _at least_ recommend normalization
>> in the SMTP server (much as 5321 recommends case-insensitive
>> matching) and that we should think about requiring it.  But,
>> again, data would help.
>>     
>
> I think that's fairly irrelevent.  It won't break the RFCs for the rest of the system.  It'd only break servers that registered both NFC and NFD (or similar variations) of names.  Then they'd pretty much deserve to be broken :)
>   
The more dangerous brokenness is the business card data entry situation, 
where people enter an address from a business card and get a "no such 
mailbox" response, without there being any visual difference between the 
two strings.

Requiring normalization at the server (without placing a requirement on 
what one normalizes to) would at least remove this class of issue.
>
> -Shawn
>
>   


From yaojk@cnnic.cn  Fri Jul 24 00:41:52 2009
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From klensin@jck.com  Fri Jul 24 01:35:00 2009
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Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 04:34:09 -0400
From: John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com>
To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>, Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
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Cc: ima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [EAI] NFC/NFD (Re: Test - driven schedule (Re: Rechartering))
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--On Friday, July 24, 2009 09:22 +0200 Harald Alvestrand
<harald@alvestrand.no> wrote:

>>...
>> I think that's fairly irrelevent.  It won't break the RFCs
>> for the rest of the system.  It'd only break servers that
>> registered both NFC and NFD (or similar variations) of names.
>> Then they'd pretty much deserve to be broken :)
>>   
> The more dangerous brokenness is the business card data entry
> situation, where people enter an address from a business card
> and get a "no such mailbox" response, without there being any
> visual difference between the two strings.
> 
> Requiring normalization at the server (without placing a
> requirement on what one normalizes to) would at least remove
> this class of issue.

Exactly.
     john


From klensin@jck.com  Fri Jul 24 01:58:59 2009
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Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 04:57:45 -0400
From: John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com>
To: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>, YAO Jiankang <yaojk@cnnic.cn>,  Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
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--On Friday, July 24, 2009 04:48 +0000 Shawn Steele
<Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com> wrote:

>...
> I think it would be "safest" if the IETF RFCs were updated to
> standards first, then the Chinese standards follow those,
> however I don't believe that'll happen in practice.  Then the
> IETF will have to choose to either just turn the experimental
> RFCs into real standards with minimal changes to conform to
> the defacto Chinese standard, or to deviate from the Chinese
> standard and break what might already be implimented.

I would state your second sentence very differently, but "yes".
Note that the normalization question is an example here ... NFC
is almost irrelevant for Chinese characters because there are no
combining forms, but very important for scripts in which
combining characters are used and precomposed alternatives are
common.

     john




From klensin@jck.com  Fri Jul 24 02:12:27 2009
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Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 05:12:09 -0400
From: John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com>
To: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
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Subject: Re: [EAI] mailto: was RE:  Rechartering
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--On Friday, July 24, 2009 04:48 +0000 Shawn Steele
<Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com> wrote:

> I think we're digressing from rechartering to mailto :)
>=20
>> Then it seems to me that you are in big trouble because
>> deploying EAI with Downgrade --even in the syntax-only form
>> Charles suggests-- means that users will encounter it working
>> one way in some places (e.g., accepting non-ASCII addresses
>> but not alternate address syntax) and in other ways (e.g.,
>> accepting non-ASCII and alternate addresses) in others, even
>> within the same system.   That is, IMO, much worse even that
>> having extended (non-ASCII) addresses work in some places but
>> not in others.
>=20
>>> I'd agree, but john@bogus.domain.name should still work :)0
>=20
>> Sure.  But unless it can be parsed out of the above, that
>> isn't interesting.
>=20
> I disagree.  Assuming that =
=D0=B8=D0=B2=D0=B0=D0=BD@bogus.domain.name is your
> Unicode alias and john@bogus.domain.name is your ASCII alias,
> you can always use mailto:john@bogus.domain.name and it should
> get to you regardless of any <> or whatnot.

And I don't know what you are suggesting.   If it is "use the
mailto: with the ASCII local part" then EAI is irrelevant.   If
it is "supply two separate mailto: URIs", then you are, in
effect, suggesting downgrading only at the sending MUA or
submission server.   I'm strongly in favor of doing as much
downgrading as is necessary and possible there, but it doesn't
require any protocol changes or new syntax.

> I actually find the < > downgrade syntax fairly unlikely to be
> helpful.  Presumably your mail server understands the complete
> EAI syntax since you're providing both addresses.  Likewise my
> client knows about EAI if it understands <unicode <ASCII>>.
> So pretty much the only place that <unicode <ASCII>> is going
> to gain anything is when my mail server is not EAI aware, but
> my client and your server are EAI aware.  It seems more likely
> to me that my server and client would both be EAI aware.  So,
> to me, the most likely scenarios would be when some in-between
> relay wasn't EAI aware, yet any such sender or receiver side
> relay would necessarily be EAI aware.  Relays that aren't
> tightly coupled with the sender/receiver side tend to be
> blacklisted anyway.

And that is precisely one of the arguments why downgrading on
the fly and mid-network is not likely to be useful enough to be
worth all the trouble, extra syntax, etc.

> So to me, the <Unicode <ASCII>> syntax is mostly interesting
> merely to populate my address book with both addresses.

And, depending on how your address book is designed --a topic
_far_ outside the scope of the WG-- a better way might be
something isomorphic with
   <email>Unicode</email>
   <alt-email>ASCII</alt-email>
or
   <email>Unicode <alt>ASCII</alt></email>
saving a lot of parsing aggravation when the addresses are
needed, _especially_ if the downgrade point is the originating
system.

>...
>> Again, if you are in a hurry, the key question is whether we
>> need downgrading.  If we don't, a large fraction of the =
issues
>> I'm raising just disappear and I have no trouble working
>> through a schedule (in your model) or a requirements plan (in
>> Harald's).
=20
> In mailto: I don't find downgrade very helpful.  As I said,
> you'd have to have an updated client anyway to handle the new
> syntax, while mailto:unicode & mailto:ASCII are likely to work
> already.  I don't really object to the mailto: updates because
> I don't really see them having any practical impact :) and
> they provide some completeness.

Mostly agreed, but, if we specify the two-address syntax,
mailto: ought to be able to access it somehow.   That is another
case of "providing for on-the-fly downgrading complicates a lot
of things without a lot of payoff".

> I think downgrade is primarily interesting when I send mail
> from an EAI aware client to an EAI unaware client.  In that
> case the mail is downgraded and the recipient is able to reply
> to me.  In nearly every other case either the user has a
> Unicode address that may or may not work, or an ASCII address
> that works.  I think the downgrade behavior in this scenario
> is fairly complete.

Complete, yes.   Reasonably guaranteed to work, no.  And it does
suggest another case that might be worth considering, which is
permitting downgrade syntax and logic only for backward-pointing
addresses (MAIL, "From:", "Sender:", "Reply-to:") but not
forward-pointing ones (RCPT, "To:", etc.)

> So I think we pretty much sort of agree.  You think that
> without downgrade the experimental RFCs are somewhat stable.
> I agree.  You ask if I think downgrade is required.  I'd split
> that out into downgrade when I send a mail, and "the rest of
> downgrade."  Downgrade when mailing from an EAI aware system
> to an EAI unaware system is useful and also somewhat
> reasonably defined, and I'd include that in my stable
> behavior.  mailto and most of the rest of downgrade I think is
> less helpful.

I think we agree although I'd like to push back mildly on even
the backward-pointing addresses just because of the costs of
dealing with the new syntax at all.

> The scenarios I see are:
> 1) EAI to EAI, in which downgrade is unhelpful
> 2) Me giving you a Unicode address on a post-it, in which case
> downgrade is unhelpful (because I didn't give you the ASCII
> form) 3) Me giving you my ASCII address on a post-it, in which
> case downgrade is irrelevent because it's gonna work anyway.
> 4) Me mailing you from EAI aware to EAI unaware systems, in
> which case downgrade is helpful     a) My mail gets to you,
> and if you reply to me, it'll work

Well, maybe.   It'll work iff the downgraded info survives the
gateways, etc., some of which may be EAI-unaware to the point of
being hostile.

>     b) You probably won't
> get my Unicode address, but that's OK, because you don't know
> how to use it anyway.

right

>     c) If you happen to have a client
> that can upgrade my address, then you'll have the info to send
> mail to me (that'll be downgraded on the way, probably) 5)
> Something like mailto:
>     a) It'll continue to work with a downgraded ASCII address.
>     b) If it happened to work with Unicode, it'll continue to
> work with Unicode.     c) If it doesn't work with Unicode and
> is EAI unaware, then downgrade won't work anyway since it
> won't understand whatever has to happen to the protocol (like
> mailto)
>=20
> So I think we're pretty close for the non-downgrade stuff.
> For downgrade I think we're pretty close for the 95% useful
> cases.  For the remaining downgrade completeness stuff like
> mailto:, I agree that there're interesting issues and I don't
> think they're helpful for that 5%.  So I'd go ahead and
> standardize the non-downgrade stuff, the downgraded headers
> stuff, and I wouldn't worry about the other downgrade
> scenarios right now.

I could probably live with this, but want to see the outcome of
more testing.

     john


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To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
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Cc: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>, "ima@ietf.org" <ima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [EAI] Test - driven schedule (Re:  Rechartering)
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Harald Alvestrand wrote:

> Shawn Steele wrote: =20
>
>>> But I personally think that the odds of getting a site that
>>> can't manage "john+ietf@bogus.domain.name" to be able to handle
>>> <=C9=D7=C1=CE@bogus.domain.name <john@bogus.domain.name>>
>>> within my lifetime are pretty small.
>>
>> I'd agree, but john@bogus.domain.name should still work :)0
>>
>> So, I pretty much agree with your points, but you aren't giving me=20
>> much hope of EAI being adaquate to those criteria in the next=20
>> decade.  I still think some sort of schedule would be interesting to=20
>> help us figure out how to proceed in addressing your concerns. =20
>
> Would it be interetsing to (for at least 5 minutes) explore the idea=20
> of a test-driven schedule, rather than a calendar-driven one?
>
> That is, specify a number of criteria that should be met before=20
> standards-track, and see if we can work backwards:
>
> tests that need to be done -> people volunteering for the work ->=20
> reasonable schedule?

I think this is a great idea. So yes, let's talk about it in Stockholm.



From Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com  Fri Jul 24 08:53:00 2009
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com>, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
Thread-Topic: mailto: was RE: [EAI] Rechartering
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> And I don't know what you are suggesting.

I'm saying that for mailto: there are 2 possibilities with the current draf=
t:

1) If I fear clients don't understand EAI, then I use the ASCII local part,=
 in which case, yes, EAI is irrelevant.
2) If I don't think they understand EAI, then I use the Unicode locale part=
.

The 3rd option: Provide both (downgrade), is useless.  If my client isn't u=
pdated to support 2), then its as bad as only providing Unicode (except in =
a few cases where some intermediate server must downgrade, which is likely =
rare in practice).

Long-term, 2) is sufficient as most users should become EAI aware.  As a tr=
ansition period I think that 1 + 2 is sufficient for EAI.

> And that is precisely one of the arguments why downgrading on
> the fly and mid-network is not likely to be useful enough to be
> worth all the trouble, extra syntax, etc.

It's useful in the limited place where I send mail from an EAI aware server=
 to an unaware system.  In that case the mail will still make it and I'll s=
till get a reply.  So I think downgrade is interesting for UTF8SMTP (the 95=
% case), and other places are pretty uninteresting.

>> So to me, the <Unicode <ASCII>> syntax is mostly interesting
>> merely to populate my address book with both addresses.

>And, depending on how your address book is designed --a topic
>_far_ outside the scope of the WG-- a better way might be
>something isomorphic with
 >  <email>Unicode</email>
 >  <alt-email>ASCII</alt-email>
>or
>   <email>Unicode <alt>ASCII</alt></email>
>saving a lot of parsing aggravation when the addresses are
>needed, _especially_ if the downgrade point is the originating
>system.

I said I didn't think the current mailto: downgrade stuff was helpful :)

> Complete, yes.   Reasonably guaranteed to work, no.  And it does
> suggest another case that might be worth considering, which is
> permitting downgrade syntax and logic only for backward-pointing
> addresses (MAIL, "From:", "Sender:", "Reply-to:") but not
> forward-pointing ones (RCPT, "To:", etc.)

That makes sense

> I think we agree although I'd like to push back mildly on even
> the backward-pointing addresses just because of the costs of
> dealing with the new syntax at all.

That makes sense too, just drop the Unicode addresses and use the downgrade=
d ones?  It'd certainly be simpler, and replies would still go back to the =
sender.  When the recipient's side was upgraded, then they could get the Un=
icode address, and it wouldn't really be helpful 'til then anyway.

> I could probably live with this, but want to see the outcome of
> more testing.

More testing is always good.  My fear is that China is basically headed thi=
s way anyway, so it seems that we're on track to end up here anyway, for be=
tter or for worse.

-Shawn

From Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com  Fri Jul 24 08:53:28 2009
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From: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>
To: John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com>, YAO Jiankang <yaojk@cnnic.cn>, Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
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> Note that the normalization question is an example here ... NFC
> is almost irrelevant for Chinese characters because there are no
> combining forms, but very important for scripts in which
> combining characters are used and precomposed alternatives are
> common.

Yes, but it's irrelevent on the client side.  Servers "should" be smart, bu=
t I wouldn't want to force NFC on a server that thinks its architecture is =
best served by NFD (for example).  I think it'd be great to strongly recomm=
end that they consider normalization and the best mapping practices for the=
ir needs, but I don't think we need to force servers.

Turkish i is a good place where IDN style mappings may not be appropriate f=
or local parts.  As it "only" impacts a particular server's users, and not =
interoperability, I'd rather not over-specify that part of the standard.

-Shawn

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On the principle that extremely late is better than not at all, here is 
the proposed agenda for Monday's meeting. It has also been uploaded to 
the IETF meeting materials server.

My apologies for the lateness.

                 Harald


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Email Address Internationalization (EAI) Agenda

Meeting: IETF 75, Stockholm
Date and time: Monday, July 27, 1740-1940
Place: Room 300
Chairs: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>, Xiaodong Lee
Version: 1.1
----------------------------------------------------

1740 - Scribe, blue sheet, agenda bashing

1750 - Documents in Last Call
  draft-ietf-eai-imap-utf8-07
  draft-ietf-eai-pop-06
  draft-ietf-eai-downgraded-display-01

  Discuss issues arising.

1810 - Deployment experience
  What implementations are done, what tests have been done,
  what has been deployed in (test) production?
  What areas of trouble did arise?
  How should we document this experience?
  
  draft-yao-eai-deployment-03
  draft-yee-eai-pop3-scenarios-00
  draft-ietf-eai-email-clients-00

1830 - Progressing on standards track
  What are the requirements for going standards track?
  Is Downgrade a special case?
  Does the backwards compatibility <u <a>> feature survivie?

  draft-yao-eai-rfc5336bis-00
  draft-ietf-eai-dsnbis-01

1915 Other matters (time permitting)
  Mailto: URL
  Mailinglists
  
1930 Wrap up, conclusions, review of action items

1940 End of meeting

--------------010407030600070509070900--

From lee@cnnic.cn  Sun Jul 26 06:16:51 2009
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Dear all,<br>
<br>
If you have presentation files, even a couple of minutes, please send
to the chairs, then we can upload to the IETF website for others.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Xiaodong<br>
<br>
Harald Alvestrand wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:4A6C2661.60902@alvestrand.no" type="cite">On the
principle that extremely late is better than not at all, here is the
proposed agenda for Monday's meeting. It has also been uploaded to the
IETF meeting materials server.
  <br>
  <br>
My apologies for the lateness.
  <br>
  <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Harald
  <br>
  <br>
  <pre wrap=""><pre wrap="">
<hr size="4" width="90%">
_______________________________________________
IMA mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:IMA@ietf.org">IMA@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima</a>
</pre></pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>

From jyee@ca.afilias.info  Sun Jul 26 07:24:42 2009
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From: Joseph Yee <jyee@ca.afilias.info>
To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
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I won't make it there physically next week.  I will attend via audio  
stream and chat room (if available) for any feedback on experience doc  
pop3-scenario and all other issues.

Look forward to the discussion next week.

Best,
Joseph

On 26-Jul-09, at 5:48 AM, Harald Alvestrand wrote:

> On the principle that extremely late is better than not at all, here  
> is the proposed agenda for Monday's meeting. It has also been  
> uploaded to the IETF meeting materials server.
>
> My apologies for the lateness.
>
>                Harald
>
> Email Address Internationalization (EAI) Agenda
>
> Meeting: IETF 75, Stockholm
> Date and time: Monday, July 27, 1740-1940
> Place: Room 300
> Chairs: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>, Xiaodong Lee
> Version: 1.1
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
> 1740 - Scribe, blue sheet, agenda bashing
>
> 1750 - Documents in Last Call
>  draft-ietf-eai-imap-utf8-07
>  draft-ietf-eai-pop-06
>  draft-ietf-eai-downgraded-display-01
>
>  Discuss issues arising.
>
> 1810 - Deployment experience
>  What implementations are done, what tests have been done,
>  what has been deployed in (test) production?
>  What areas of trouble did arise?
>  How should we document this experience?
>
>  draft-yao-eai-deployment-03
>  draft-yee-eai-pop3-scenarios-00
>  draft-ietf-eai-email-clients-00
>
> 1830 - Progressing on standards track
>  What are the requirements for going standards track?
>  Is Downgrade a special case?
>  Does the backwards compatibility <u <a>> feature survivie?
>
>  draft-yao-eai-rfc5336bis-00
>  draft-ietf-eai-dsnbis-01
>
> 1915 Other matters (time permitting)
>  Mailto: URL
>  Mailinglists
>
> 1930 Wrap up, conclusions, review of action items
>
> 1940 End of meeting
> _______________________________________________
> IMA mailing list
> IMA@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima


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To: Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>, "daniel@taharlev.com" <daniel@taharlev.com>, "barryleiba@computer.org" <barryleiba@computer.org>
From: Randall Gellens <randy@qualcomm.com>
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Subject: Re: [EAI] POP/IMAP authentication?
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At 8:32 PM +0000 7/14/09, Shawn Steele wrote:

>  When a user creates a new Unicode account, or migrates an existing 
> ASCII account to Unicode, applications need to consider the 
> appropriate authentication needs for those users.  Some users may 
> desire Unicode login information, yet be restricted to ASCII 
> devices or clients.  In those cases, systems may choose to provide 
> both a Unicode and an ASCII authentication mechanism.  This is not 
> required, and systems may assign logon credentials as they see fit, 
> however it is recommended that application developers carefully 
> consider the use cases and needs of the end users to determine if 
> ASCII and/or Unicode credentials are required.
>
>  Certain limitations may impact decisions about logon credentials: 
> Keyboards available to the user, anticipated public terminal use 
> like kiosks or internet cafes, software limitations such as legacy 
> mail clients, and hardware limitations such as cellular or 
> satellite phones.

I'm not sure that text such as this belongs in the POP and IMAP 
documents, as opposed to the framework document.  Maybe it belongs in 
the POP and IMAP, but I'm not convinced yet.  The idea seems to be to 
convey some basic information regarding how accounts should be set 
up, which can be helpful, but doesn't really have anything to do with 
POP/IMAP, aside from the account data being used there (as well as 
elsewhere).

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
The whole dream of democracy is to raise the proletarian to the level
of stupidity attained by the bourgeois.            --Gustave Flaubert

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At 5:11 PM -0400 7/6/09, Joseph Yee wrote:

>  I think what's more important is to state allowing UTF8 encoded 
> characters as part of login name & password.

The POP draft says the client knows when UTF8 is permitted in 
credentials because the server included the USER argument to the UTF8 
capability tag.  The client does not have to issue the UTF8 command 
before using UTF8 in authentication (the draft now implies that the 
client does need to.)

>  Multiple different credential logins to same mailbox is allowed 
> now, and I guess no one intended to restrict it because of EAI 
> environment.

Yes, exactly right.  This is a consideration for sites upgrading to 
support UTF8, but not specific to POP or IMAP.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
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I could never make out what those damned dots meant.
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At 9:21 PM +0100 7/18/09, Alexey Melnikov wrote:

>>  3.1. The UTF8 Command
>>
>>     The octet count (size) of a message reported in a response to the
>>     LIST command SHOULD match the actual number of octets sent in a RETR
>>     response.  Sizes reported elsewhere, such as in STAT responses and
>>     non-standardized free-form text in positive status indicators
>>     (following "+OK") need not be accurate, but it is preferable if they
>>     are.
>
>  I would like to hear some justification for returning inaccurate 
> sizes (and for the SHOULD instead of a MUST).

Depending on server implementation, it might be expensive to 
calculate an exact size, and so shouldn't be forced without good 
reason.  I'm thinking tat the LIST size is mostly to give the client 
an idea if it wants to download the message or part of it.  Also, the 
free-form sizes are not part of the spec in any way, just common 
practice.  I'm aware that there have been cases where clients went 
bonkers or casters-up (behaved badly) if the server put an inaccurate 
count in the free-form text, but hopefully this isn't a reason to now 
mandate that such sizes be included at all, much less be accurate.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Please ignore previous fortune.

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At 9:21 PM +0100 7/18/09, Alexey Melnikov wrote:

>  Should this have an Informative reference to RFC 4422?

Or maybe RFC 5034?

>  As a side note: UTF-8 was always allowed in AUTH command, as 
> support for it is required by SASL.

Indeed so, including a SHOULD for SASLprep in 5034.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
    The highlight of the annual Computer Bowl occurred when Bill Gates,
who was a judge, posed the following question to the contestants:
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obscure, bizarre, and really bad programming?"
    After a moment of silence, Jean-Louis Gassee (ex-honcho at Apple)
hit his buzzer and answered "Windows."
                                          --Recounted by Adam C. Engst

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Subject: Re: [EAI] AD review of draft-ietf-eai-pop-06
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At 5:29 PM -0400 7/20/09, Barry Leiba wrote:

>  Because clients have to be changed to ask for this anyway, those
>  clients can also understand that they have to deal with a retrieval
>  that might be larger than they were led to expect, and they can code
>  for it.

If the size is an approximation and used only as advice by the 
client, it should be fine.  The danger is if a client relies on it to 
know if it has the entire message (in violation of POP), for example.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
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As you know, any depiction of nasal mucus brings with it problems for
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At 2:32 PM +0100 7/22/09, Alexey Melnikov wrote:

>  If we want to keep the SHOULD, your last point ("Because clients 
> have to be changed to ask for this anyway") needs to be explicitly 
> spelled out. I am not sure how existing clients are using results 
> of the LIST command. I also think that in this case the document 
> needs to say that messages sizes MUST be consistent (i.e. for a 
> given message the server must return the same size in LIST all the 
> time).

More text making it clear that sizes in POP should be advisory could 
be helpful.  I'm not sure why the size needs to be consistent, 
though.  For example, if a server uses a guestimate initially, but 
then does a conversion and learns the exact size, why shouldn't it 
start returning the exact size?

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
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From alexey.melnikov@isode.com  Mon Jul 27 02:04:20 2009
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Randall Gellens wrote:

> At 2:32 PM +0100 7/22/09, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>
>>  If we want to keep the SHOULD, your last point ("Because clients 
>> have to be changed to ask for this anyway") needs to be explicitly 
>> spelled out. I am not sure how existing clients are using results of 
>> the LIST command. I also think that in this case the document needs 
>> to say that messages sizes MUST be consistent (i.e. for a given 
>> message the server must return the same size in LIST all the time).
>
> More text making it clear that sizes in POP should be advisory could 
> be helpful.

Right.

> I'm not sure why the size needs to be consistent, though.  For 
> example, if a server uses a guestimate initially, but then does a 
> conversion and learns the exact size, why shouldn't it start returning 
> the exact size?

Ok, this is a convincing argument.

My concern was about clients caching message sizes between sessions, 
maybe to help identify messages uniquely. But that might not be a real 
problem.


From alexey.melnikov@isode.com  Mon Jul 27 02:05:46 2009
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Randall Gellens wrote:

> At 9:21 PM +0100 7/18/09, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>
>>  Should this have an Informative reference to RFC 4422?
>
> Or maybe RFC 5034?

Yes, indeed.

>>  As a side note: UTF-8 was always allowed in AUTH command, as support 
>> for it is required by SASL.
>
> Indeed so, including a SHOULD for SASLprep in 5034.

See my other reply on this. I don't think the document need to say 
anything normative about AUTH.


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Subject: Re: [EAI] AD review of draft-ietf-eai-pop-06
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At 11:05 AM +0200 7/27/09, Alexey Melnikov wrote:

>  See my other reply on this. I don't think the document need to say 
> anything normative about AUTH.

I agree with what you said elsewhere (the POP draft should take out 
text about AUTH).

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Ever notice that people who are late are much jollier
than the people who have to wait for them?

From chl@clerew.man.ac.uk  Mon Jul 27 03:47:52 2009
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Subject: Re: [EAI] mailto: was RE:  Rechartering
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On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 05:48:35 +0100, Shawn Steele  
<Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com> wrote:

> I actually find the < > downgrade syntax fairly unlikely to be helpful.   
> Presumably your mail server understands the complete EAI syntax since  
> you're providing both addresses.  Likewise my client knows about EAI if  
> it understands <unicode <ASCII>>.  So pretty much the only place that  
> <unicode <ASCII>> is going to gain anything is when my mail server is  
> not EAI aware, but my client and your server are EAI aware.  It seems  
> more likely to me that my server and client would both be EAI aware.   
> So, to me, the most likely scenarios would be when some in-between relay  
> wasn't EAI aware, yet any such sender or receiver side relay would  
> necessarily be EAI aware.  Relays that aren't tightly coupled with the  
> sender/receiver side tend to be blacklisted anyway.

But the in-between server has no business looking at the headers inside  
the message, so it should not care is they contain To: <...<...>>. The  
important thing fot the in-between server (which preumably does not  
advvertise the UTF8 capability, and so SHOULD NOT have been offered the  
message in the first place) is whether it will be confused by the way in  
which the alt-address appears in the envelope (which is NOT that  
<...<...>> format). If it finds something in the RCPT TO that it thinks it  
knows how to forawrd to, it will try to forward it AS-IS (and may well  
succeed unless it is one of those Sendmails that still doesn't transmit  
7-bit headers cleanly). If it thinks it does not know how to forward it to  
the RCPT TO, it will try to bounce it to the MAIL FROM (if it had not  
already rejected with a 5xx). That might indeed fail to work.

But noway should it be looking inside the headers, except to add its own  
Received (and maybe to reorder the headers which some systems insist on  
doing). It it can't do either of those things without parsing every  
individual header, then it is indeed in trouble, but are respectable  
servers out there really like that?

But as Shawn point out, all other scenarious OUGHT to work, provided those  
that DO downgrade when faced with an ongoing server that does not  
advertise UTF8 do so correctly.

So servers are (or should not be) the problem. The only problem is all  
those other bits of software which ask you to type in an email address and  
then don't like what they see. They do not lie on the critical path of  
trnasmitting mail. And Microsoft will fix them pretty promptly IF it  
regards the Chinese market as sufficiently lucrative to make it worth  
their while (which, of course, they might not).

-- 
Charles�H.�Lindsey�---------At�Home,�doing�my�own�thing------------------------
Tel:�+44�161�436�6131�                      
���Web:�http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email:�chl@clerew.man.ac.uk������Snail:�5�Clerewood�Ave,�CHEADLE,�SK8�3JU,�U.K.
PGP:�2C15F1A9������Fingerprint:�73�6D�C2�51�93�A0�01�E7�65�E8�64�7E�14�A4�AB�A5

From alexey.melnikov@isode.com  Mon Jul 27 04:02:53 2009
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Cc: "barryleiba@computer.org" <barryleiba@computer.org>, Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>, "ima@ietf.org" <ima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [EAI] POP/IMAP authentication?
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Randall Gellens wrote:

> At 8:32 PM +0000 7/14/09, Shawn Steele wrote:
>
>>  When a user creates a new Unicode account, or migrates an existing 
>> ASCII account to Unicode, applications need to consider the 
>> appropriate authentication needs for those users.  Some users may 
>> desire Unicode login information, yet be restricted to ASCII devices 
>> or clients.  In those cases, systems may choose to provide both a 
>> Unicode and an ASCII authentication mechanism.  This is not required, 
>> and systems may assign logon credentials as they see fit, however it 
>> is recommended that application developers carefully consider the use 
>> cases and needs of the end users to determine if ASCII and/or Unicode 
>> credentials are required.
>>
>>  Certain limitations may impact decisions about logon credentials: 
>> Keyboards available to the user, anticipated public terminal use like 
>> kiosks or internet cafes, software limitations such as legacy mail 
>> clients, and hardware limitations such as cellular or satellite phones.
>
> I'm not sure that text such as this belongs in the POP and IMAP 
> documents, as opposed to the framework document.  Maybe it belongs in 
> the POP and IMAP, but I'm not convinced yet.  The idea seems to be to 
> convey some basic information regarding how accounts should be set up, 
> which can be helpful, but doesn't really have anything to do with 
> POP/IMAP, aside from the account data being used there (as well as 
> elsewhere).

I agree, this text would be better in the framework document. We should 
revise the framework document anyway.


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Cc: Randall Gellens <randy@qualcomm.com>, "barryleiba@computer.org" <barryleiba@computer.org>, Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>, "ima@ietf.org" <ima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [EAI] POP/IMAP authentication?
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Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>>
>> I'm not sure that text such as this belongs in the POP and IMAP 
>> documents, as opposed to the framework document.  Maybe it belongs in 
>> the POP and IMAP, but I'm not convinced yet.  The idea seems to be to 
>> convey some basic information regarding how accounts should be set 
>> up, which can be helpful, but doesn't really have anything to do with 
>> POP/IMAP, aside from the account data being used there (as well as 
>> elsewhere).
>
> I agree, this text would be better in the framework document. We 
> should revise the framework document anyway. 
It may be even better in one of the "implementation advice" documents 
(which we'll have to sort out today).

               Harald


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Cc: Randall Gellens <randy@qualcomm.com>, "barryleiba@computer.org" <barryleiba@computer.org>, Shawn Steele <Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com>, "ima@ietf.org" <ima@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [EAI] POP/IMAP authentication?
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agree with harald, we should give some implementation suggestion for 
software vendors or services providers.
Another thing is about the variant of username,  we may give suggestion 
on to-do, instead of how-to-do.

Harald Alvestrand wrote:
> Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not sure that text such as this belongs in the POP and IMAP 
>>> documents, as opposed to the framework document.  Maybe it belongs 
>>> in the POP and IMAP, but I'm not convinced yet.  The idea seems to 
>>> be to convey some basic information regarding how accounts should be 
>>> set up, which can be helpful, but doesn't really have anything to do 
>>> with POP/IMAP, aside from the account data being used there (as well 
>>> as elsewhere).
>>
>> I agree, this text would be better in the framework document. We 
>> should revise the framework document anyway. 
> It may be even better in one of the "implementation advice" documents 
> (which we'll have to sort out today).
>
>               Harald
>
> _______________________________________________
> IMA mailing list
> IMA@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [EAI] AD review of draft-ietf-eai-pop-06
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At 11:04 AM +0200 7/27/09, Alexey Melnikov wrote:

>  My concern was about clients caching message sizes between 
> sessions, maybe to help identify messages uniquely. But that might 
> not be a real problem.

We have a unique identifier (UID) for that :-)

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and
life stands explained.                          --Mark Twain

From alexey.melnikov@isode.com  Mon Jul 27 06:00:48 2009
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Subject: Re: [EAI] AD review of draft-ietf-eai-pop-06
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Randall Gellens wrote:

> At 11:04 AM +0200 7/27/09, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>
>>  My concern was about clients caching message sizes between sessions, 
>> maybe to help identify messages uniquely. But that might not be a 
>> real problem.
>
> We have a unique identifier (UID) for that :-)

Which don't have to be unique among all messages in POP, as far as I 
remember...


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On 27-Jul-09, at 4:36 AM, Randall Gellens wrote:

> At 5:11 PM -0400 7/6/09, Joseph Yee wrote:
>
>> I think what's more important is to state allowing UTF8 encoded  
>> characters as part of login name & password.
>
> The POP draft says the client knows when UTF8 is permitted in  
> credentials because the server included the USER argument to the  
> UTF8 capability tag.  The client does not have to issue the UTF8  
> command before using UTF8 in authentication (the draft now implies  
> that the client does need to.)

Yes, I misunderstand the pop3 draft before, I will change it in the  
next revision.

>
>> Multiple different credential logins to same mailbox is allowed  
>> now, and I guess no one intended to restrict it because of EAI  
>> environment.
>
> Yes, exactly right.  This is a consideration for sites upgrading to  
> support UTF8, but not specific to POP or IMAP.
>
> -- 
> Randall Gellens
> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself  
> only
> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
> I could never make out what those damned dots meant.
>   --Lord Randolph Churchill, former Chancellor of the Exchequer,
>     regarding decimal points

Joseph

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John C Klensin writes:
> --On Friday, July 24, 2009 09:22 +0200 Harald Alvestrand
> <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote:
>> The more dangerous brokenness is the business card data entry=20
>> situation, where people enter an address from a business card and=20
>> get a "no such mailbox" response, without there being any visual=20
>> difference between the two strings.
>>
>>  Requiring normalization at the server (without placing a requirement=20
>>  on what one normalizes to) would at least remove this class of=20
>>  issue.
>
> Exactly.

I wonder if that's a bit of a fallacy... anyone who expects humans to=20
read and reenter 42-69 differently from 42=E2=80=9269 has a problem. IMO =
that's=20
a perfectly natural mistake, it involves a character often used in=20
today's email addresses, and I've never heard anyone use this=20
particular example before so I doubt it would be implemented quickly.

Alternative proposal: Extend VRFY to optionally return a fuzzily=20
correctified version of an email address. If VRFY is disabled or=20
doesn't return an address, correction isn't available for that address.=20
I think this is better because it permits the fuzzy fuzziness to be=20
invoked when the address is entered into e.g. an address database,=20
instead of when a message is transmitted. As a bonus it's 99%=20
independent of EAI.

Arnt

From barryleiba@gmail.com  Mon Jul 27 03:52:48 2009
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Subject: Re: [EAI] POP/IMAP authentication?
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> I'm not sure that text such as this belongs in the POP and IMAP documents=
,
> as opposed to the framework document. =A0Maybe it belongs in the POP and =
IMAP,
> but I'm not convinced yet. =A0The idea seems to be to convey some basic
> information regarding how accounts should be set up, which can be helpful=
,
> but doesn't really have anything to do with POP/IMAP, aside from the acco=
unt
> data being used there (as well as elsewhere).

I'd be happy to have in the framework doc.

Barry

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Subject: Re: [EAI] NFC/NFD (Re: Test - driven schedule (Re: Rechartering))
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Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
> John C Klensin writes:
>> --On Friday, July 24, 2009 09:22 +0200 Harald Alvestrand
>> <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote:
>>> The more dangerous brokenness is the business card data entry 
>>> situation, where people enter an address from a business card and 
>>> get a "no such mailbox" response, without there being any visual 
>>> difference between the two strings.
>>>
>>>  Requiring normalization at the server (without placing a 
>>> requirement  on what one normalizes to) would at least remove this 
>>> class of  issue.
>>
>> Exactly.
>
> I wonder if that's a bit of a fallacy... anyone who expects humans to 
> read and reenter 42-69 differently from 42‒69 has a problem. IMO 
> that's a perfectly natural mistake, it involves a character often used 
> in today's email addresses, and I've never heard anyone use this 
> particular example before so I doubt it would be implemented quickly.
and in this case, NFC wouldn't help either....
>
> Alternative proposal: Extend VRFY to optionally return a fuzzily 
> correctified version of an email address. If VRFY is disabled or 
> doesn't return an address, correction isn't available for that 
> address. I think this is better because it permits the fuzzy fuzziness 
> to be invoked when the address is entered into e.g. an address 
> database, instead of when a message is transmitted. As a bonus it's 
> 99% independent of EAI.
Fuzzy matching is a very interesting subject, and I'd argue that it's 
100% orthogonal to EAI - I still remember the mail I got as a new 
postmaster after a new fuzzy-match algorithm had rerouted a misspelling 
of one man's wife's mail to his mailbox - "how did the system know we 
are married?".

I'd like to punt this issue to the Single Global Directory, but that's 
just reducing it to a previously unsolved problem.....

                      Harald




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Subject: Re: [EAI] NFC/NFD (Re: Test - driven schedule (Re: Rechartering))
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Sorry about my address. Problems I can't solve right now.

Harald Alvestrand writes:
> and in this case, NFC wouldn't help either....

Exactly. Nothing is equivalent to the typos humans make.

> Fuzzy matching is a very interesting subject, and I'd argue that it's 
> 100% orthogonal to EAI - I still remember the mail I got as a new 
> postmaster after a new fuzzy-match algorithm had rerouted a 
> misspelling of one man's wife's mail to his mailbox - "how did the 
> system know we are married?".
>
> I'd like to punt this issue to the Single Global Directory, but that's 
> just reducing it to a previously unsolved problem.....

(One solved long ago by spammers, *sigh* ;)

I'm serious, though: EAI should suggest that before storing an address, 
the software might attempt to check its accuracy using RCPT or VRFY, 
and do _nothing_ more.

The heuristics fit in VRFY, and at that data entry time it's possible to 
ask "uh, was there a typo, did you mean <x>?" if the VRFY responds 
suitably.

Arnt

From jyee@ca.afilias.info  Mon Jul 27 08:28:11 2009
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From: Joseph Yee <jyee@ca.afilias.info>
To: Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no>
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Cc: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>, ima@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [EAI] punctuation and number (NFC/NFD)
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IMO this set MUST normalize first, punctuation and number: dot, =20
underscore, plus, minus, number, and any other punctuation characters =20=

allowed in email now. Some normalization may be solved by internal =20
mapping, alias, etc.  I'm concerned that punctuation marks are not =20
(especially characters with special meaning in email format).

It sounds like I'm spelling NFKC/D, I'm not.  I want to focus on =20
punctuation mark normalization in regard to email address only.  It =20
can be special rule to apply first before other normalization, no =20
punctuation mark allowed beyond ASCII set, NF-something for the whole =20=

email address (if it addressed the punctuation mark concern).

Joseph

On 27-Jul-09, at 10:00 AM, Harald Alvestrand wrote:

> Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
>> John C Klensin writes:
>>> --On Friday, July 24, 2009 09:22 +0200 Harald Alvestrand
>>> <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote:
>>>> The more dangerous brokenness is the business card data entry =20
>>>> situation, where people enter an address from a business card and =20=

>>>> get a "no such mailbox" response, without there being any visual =20=

>>>> difference between the two strings.
>>>>
>>>> Requiring normalization at the server (without placing a =20
>>>> requirement  on what one normalizes to) would at least remove =20
>>>> this class of  issue.
>>>
>>> Exactly.
>>
>> I wonder if that's a bit of a fallacy... anyone who expects humans =20=

>> to read and reenter 42-69 differently from 42=E2=80=9269 has a =
problem. =20
>> IMO that's a perfectly natural mistake, it involves a character =20
>> often used in today's email addresses, and I've never heard anyone =20=

>> use this particular example before so I doubt it would be =20
>> implemented quickly.
> and in this case, NFC wouldn't help either....
>>
>> Alternative proposal: Extend VRFY to optionally return a fuzzily =20
>> correctified version of an email address. If VRFY is disabled or =20
>> doesn't return an address, correction isn't available for that =20
>> address. I think this is better because it permits the fuzzy =20
>> fuzziness to be invoked when the address is entered into e.g. an =20
>> address database, instead of when a message is transmitted. As a =20
>> bonus it's 99% independent of EAI.
> Fuzzy matching is a very interesting subject, and I'd argue that =20
> it's 100% orthogonal to EAI - I still remember the mail I got as a =20
> new postmaster after a new fuzzy-match algorithm had rerouted a =20
> misspelling of one man's wife's mail to his mailbox - "how did the =20
> system know we are married?".
>
> I'd like to punt this issue to the Single Global Directory, but =20
> that's just reducing it to a previously unsolved problem.....
>
>                     Harald
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> IMA mailing list
> IMA@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima


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On Fri, 24 Jul 2009, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
>
> Alternative proposal: Extend VRFY to optionally return a fuzzily
> correctified version of an email address.

That's already part of the VRFY spec :-)

Tony.
-- 
f.anthony.n.finch  <dot@dotat.at>  http://dotat.at/
GERMAN BIGHT HUMBER: SOUTHWEST 5 TO 7. MODERATE OR ROUGH. SQUALLY SHOWERS.
MODERATE OR GOOD.

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At 3:00 PM +0200 7/27/09, Alexey Melnikov wrote:

>  Randall Gellens wrote:
>
>>  At 11:04 AM +0200 7/27/09, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
>>
>>>   My concern was about clients caching message sizes between 
>>> sessions, maybe to help identify messages uniquely. But that 
>>> might not be a real problem.
>>
>>  We have a unique identifier (UID) for that :-)
>
>  Which don't have to be unique among all messages in POP, as far as 
> I remember...

RFC 1939 requires that UID "uniquely identifies a message within a 
maildrop and which persists across sessions".

Besides, clients creating their own UIDs are more likely to hash 
selects headers than to consider size, in my opinion.

-- 
Randall Gellens
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From klensin@jck.com  Mon Jul 27 10:11:54 2009
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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 13:11:31 -0400
From: John C Klensin <klensin@jck.com>
To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no>, ima@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [EAI] NFC/NFD (Re: Test - driven schedule (Re: Rechartering))
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--On Friday, July 24, 2009 10:59 +0200 Arnt Gulbrandsen
<arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no> wrote:

> Alternative proposal: Extend VRFY to optionally return a
> fuzzily correctified version of an email address. If VRFY is
> disabled or doesn't return an address, correction isn't
> available for that address. I think this is better because it
> permits the fuzzy fuzziness to be invoked when the address is
> entered into e.g. an address database, instead of when a
> message is transmitted. As a bonus it's 99% independent of EAI.

First, as Tony points out, that has been part of VRFY forever
and, historically, systems used to fairly commonly generate real
addresses.  In particular, it was common in some systems for one
to be able to send
   VRFY John Klensin
and get an address back, and VRFY was designed to accommodate
that use when systems wanted to support it.

Second, what you are suggesting is a member of a family of
solutions we've discussed before.  Some of them would fall under
Harald's Global Universal Directory project, others don't, but
all are members of the set of "if downgrading of
forward-pointing addresses is needed, it needs to be done at the
originating MUA or Submission server and downgrading does not
need to be done in transit (at SMTP time).

    john


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From: Barry Leiba <barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com>
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Subject: [EAI] "Friends of IMAP" dinner in Stockholm on IETF Friday
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We'll be gathering for the traditional "Friends of IMAP" dinner, after
the IETF meeting, in Stockholm.  Because the only time we can get most
of the people together is Friday, we'll do it on Friday evening, 31
July.  We'll meet in the entrance lobby of the Clarion Sign Hotel at
19:00.

No plan, yet, about where to do.

Barry