From Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Mon Mar 7 01:30:05 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9D323A693E; Mon, 7 Mar 2011 01:30:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.541 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.541 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.058, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vmalg91UV450; Mon, 7 Mar 2011 01:30:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 188C63A6827; Mon, 7 Mar 2011 01:30:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 3.12 Message-ID: <20110307093002.16492.42772.idtracker@localhost> Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 01:30:02 -0800 Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: [EAI] I-D Action:draft-ietf-eai-rfc5336bis-08.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 09:30:06 -0000 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Email Address Internationalization Working Group of the IETF. Title : SMTP Extension for Internationalized Email Address Author(s) : J. Yao, W. MAO Filename : draft-ietf-eai-rfc5336bis-08.txt Pages : 22 Date : 2011-03-07 This document specifies an SMTP extension for transport and delivery of email messages with internationalized email addresses or header information. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eai-rfc5336bis-08.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-eai-rfc5336bis-08.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2011-03-07011512.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- From johnl@iecc.com Mon Mar 7 17:11:52 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74D853A69AE for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2011 17:11:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -111.102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-111.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.097, BAYES_00=-2.599, HABEAS_ACCREDITED_SOI=-4.3, RCVD_IN_BSP_TRUSTED=-4.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NdBrGFAhedNV for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2011 17:11:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [64.57.183.53]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE5C13A6955 for ; Mon, 7 Mar 2011 17:11:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 78398 invoked from network); 8 Mar 2011 01:12:57 -0000 Received: from mail1.iecc.com (64.57.183.56) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 8 Mar 2011 01:12:57 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:cc:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:vbr-info; s=1568b.4d758299.k1103; i=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=Q87S4t9SKdMoB8r2NRw44lcyhBEiZU9TSxGiBSDXOxU=; b=n1Tv+1qBg0OlLcbct07AQ3My37vQRQcVagjEKXdiFLrAxWWUApQoich6mrHue95VdooToifadeMrSPwRnhD428Ez3QErJ6NvNcLlvBRMryRlrRt7gCs4ddlmw2/9/YJ8trXa8PsGG7t6wswtfj4DsjAxiBXnIgbqGvLxxbDdAfw= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:cc:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:vbr-info; s=1568b.4d758299.k1103; olt=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=Q87S4t9SKdMoB8r2NRw44lcyhBEiZU9TSxGiBSDXOxU=; b=A5eje/9P3G7elbtpaLnAIwTb1KzifvHkYvygDl7wBF+kCAlfb5tLSky+PFkAVqKATrr/7IIEpoStLJGkUIT0F+T5iuyidXfXdj/sts6vDWx5gUMm2bnFHSzLKc3L1KlUgyZ2UCZGpPDOihj/sqEaFVvJCbf2dACYyjNlcR2VZ8g= VBR-Info: md=iecc.com; mc=all; mv=dwl.spamhaus.org Date: 8 Mar 2011 01:12:56 -0000 Message-ID: <20110308011256.87690.qmail@joyce.lan> From: John Levine To: ima@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20110307093002.16492.42772.idtracker@localhost> Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Cc: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] I-D Action: draft-ietf-eai-rfc5336bis-08.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 01:11:52 -0000 > Filename : draft-ietf-eai-rfc5336bis-08.txt I hope someone can point me at archived messages that resolve this, but what's the reason that section 3.2 says that you need to have a UTF8SMTPbis session to pass a message/global as a MIME part? I understand why it'd be a problem if sent as 8bit, but if it's QP or base64, what's the difference between that and any random application/x.somethingyouneverheardof that people send all the time? R's, John From klensin@jck.com Tue Mar 8 00:47:59 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 600F53A67AC; Tue, 8 Mar 2011 00:47:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.675 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.675 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.076, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LMAheUheeD2k; Tue, 8 Mar 2011 00:47:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00BAE3A67B8; Tue, 8 Mar 2011 00:47:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1PwsbM-0005rJ-9T; Tue, 08 Mar 2011 03:49:08 -0500 Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 03:49:07 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: John Levine , ima@ietf.org Message-ID: <0F7249F28559FCBABB711C29@PST.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: <20110308011256.87690.qmail@joyce.lan> References: <20110308011256.87690.qmail@joyce.lan> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cc: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] I-D Action: draft-ietf-eai-rfc5336bis-08.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 08:47:59 -0000 --On Tuesday, March 08, 2011 01:12 +0000 John Levine wrote: >> Filename : draft-ietf-eai-rfc5336bis-08.txt > > I hope someone can point me at archived messages that resolve > this, but what's the reason that section 3.2 says that you > need to have a UTF8SMTPbis session to pass a message/global as > a MIME part? I understand why it'd be a problem if sent as > 8bit, but if it's QP or base64, what's the difference between > that and any random application/x.somethingyouneverheardof > that people send all the time? Nothing in any of the base MIME or message header specs permits encoding headers (other than the parts that can be turned into encoded words( in other than ASCII text. And the definition of message/rfc822 requires conformance to 822 / 5322, including the "all header information is either ASCII or encoded into ASCII" requirement. So, assume we start out with an incoming message structured as # From: joe@example.com # To: SomeNonASCII # Date: Saturday, February 30, 2011 00:01 +0100 # MIME-Version: 1.0 # Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 # Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit # # Some message text containing characters outside the ASCII range It is received at example.net with SMTP extensions 8BITMIME and UTF8SMTPbis. So far, so good. The recipient there now wants to encapsulate it, headers and all, and forward the result to a host that advertises neither UTF8SMTPbis nor 8BITMIME. If example.net (or the MUA) were sufficiently clever, turning SomeNonASCII into encoded words is well-specified, as is encoding the message text in Base64 and changing the C-T-E to Base64 to match. But there is no downgrade mechanism for the actual address/mailbox part of the "To:" header field. As far as the WG has been able to determine, that leaves three possible design options: (1) Define a new content-type that is like message/rfc822 but that permits explicit non-ASCII in the headers of the encapsulated material and require a UTF8SMTPbis session. (2) Encapsulate the entire message (with or without the envelope), pushing the headers into Base64. This would obviously require a new content-type as well, but would render the encapsulated message somewhat opaque. It would not require UTF8SMTPbis since all material would be in ASCII. (3) Figure out a way to apply encoded-words to address subfields (clauses) and other header fields and clauses in which encoded-words are not now permitted. Depending on how it were done, this might require an SMTP extension (not necessarily UTF8SMTPbis) and/or a new content-type. In reverse order, the WG discussed variations on (3) -- it is, after all, isomorphic with "downgrading" ideas and, fwiw, ideas about avoiding any need for 8bit transport of any header information including addresses -- and rejected them as impractical given the wide variety of information now encoded in local-parts and the "no tampering enroute" rule. The WG also decided against (2) because the opacity would cause other problems. The idea was not new -- I was recently reminded that it was one of the options I proposed in draft-klensin-i18n-message in early 2004. The first option was selected by the WG with message/global and UTF8SMTP / UTF8SMTPbis (as usual, "whatever the latter ends up being called). john (3) Figure out From dhc2@dcrocker.net Tue Mar 8 10:05:57 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2297D3A68AF; Tue, 8 Mar 2011 10:05:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HD+RHRa-4qjA; Tue, 8 Mar 2011 10:05:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F27413A6857; Tue, 8 Mar 2011 10:05:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (adsl-67-127-56-68.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.127.56.68]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id p28I7321032377 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 8 Mar 2011 10:07:09 -0800 Message-ID: <4D767047.8040608@dcrocker.net> Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 10:07:03 -0800 From: Dave CROCKER Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.15) Gecko/20110303 Thunderbird/3.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John C Klensin References: <20110308011256.87690.qmail@joyce.lan> <0F7249F28559FCBABB711C29@PST.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: <0F7249F28559FCBABB711C29@PST.JCK.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Tue, 08 Mar 2011 10:07:10 -0800 (PST) Cc: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org, ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] I-D Action: draft-ietf-eai-rfc5336bis-08.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 18:05:57 -0000 On 3/8/2011 12:49 AM, John C Klensin wrote: > --On Tuesday, March 08, 2011 01:12 +0000 John Levine > wrote: >> I hope someone can point me at archived messages that resolve >> this,, John asked for a pointer to the archive, not an assurance that the discussion took place. I'd like to see the pointer, too, because your lengthy response indicates a rather basic misunderstanding of the way MIME-handling rules are different from SMTP-level message-handling rules. It also suggests a misunderstanding of the primary reason for having the SMTP handling restriction being defined by this group: The issue is not whether the recipient "supports" the enhanced characters, but the need to easily distinguish between legacy character usage versus enhanced (UTF-8) character usage; a message having a header using the enhanced characters might break a legacy message processing engine. When aa established base of data processing software is handed data that falls outside of the range that was previously legal, it is likely that some of that software will break or will damage the data. The SMTP-level rule is the means of ensuring that receiving engines will not break and will not erroneously modify the data. By contrast, MIME uses the Content-type field to provide an "out of band" indication of the type, so that a processing engine that dives into the MIME content is forewarned. As with all MIME labels, message/global means both "the body part contains the labeled type of data" but also "do not process this body-part unless you understand that type of data." In other words, the rules for propagating a new MIME content-type are -- and need to be -- fundamentally different than for a new type of email header. Currently, folks frequently pass around MIME attachments for data the recipient cannot (currently) process. It's legal and actually constructive. Consequently the SMTP-level restriction on the carriage of message/global is gratuitous, serving mostly to raise yet-another high barrier to adoption for interoperable UTF-8. It also qualifies as a layer violation. Note that a major factor in MIME's success was precisely because it did NOT impose a restriction like this. It meant that any two cooperating MUAs could process the data, without being dependent on an upgrade of the infrastructure. The current draft's restriction makes it impossible for the MUAs to pass an attachment that happens to be message/global even though all sorts of other attachments can be passed that the recipient might not be able to process. > Nothing in any of the base MIME or message header specs permits ... > It is received at example.net with SMTP extensions 8BITMIME and > UTF8SMTPbis. So far, so good. Also so far, so irrelevant. The first part of your message covers the handling of a message from posting to delivery and has nothing to do with MIME message/global. How the message/global content came into being is irrelevant. What is relevant is that someone wants to send a message with a message/global attachment. > If example.net (or the MUA) were sufficiently clever, turning > SomeNonASCII into encoded words is well-specified, as is > encoding the message text in Base64 and changing the C-T-E to > Base64 to match. But there is no downgrade mechanism for the > actual address/mailbox part of the "To:" header field. You are inventing a requirement that the infrastructure provide assurance that a recipient can process a particular MIME type. I believe this is both brand new and counter-productive. Defining the new MIME message type is fine and appropriate. Specifying special transport handling restrictions is not. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Wed Mar 9 01:11:54 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6719F3A68B9 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 01:11:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.835 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.835 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.045, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2+K84DWFnBLO for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 01:11:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from scintmta01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scintmta01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.33]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BAB53A67C3 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 01:11:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.231]) by scintmta01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id p299D8Hm008595 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 18:13:08 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 7958_22a5_733cd602_4a2d_11e0_be2e_001d096c566a; Wed, 09 Mar 2011 18:13:08 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:58368) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 18:13:09 +0900 Message-ID: <4D77448D.4000205@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 18:12:45 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100722 Eudora/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ima@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------040201030702090609050606" Subject: [EAI] FYI: I-D Action:draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 09:11:54 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040201030702090609050606 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This draft may be of interest to some WG participants, as it is in the long-term part of the charter. I have asked the Co-Chairs to put it on the agenda of the WG meeting in Prague if they feel there may be enough time and energy left. I have tried to address earlier comments (in particular also from John K.) regarding hidden encoding/decoding complexity by explicitly renaming ABNF rules. As an example, the addr-spec rule has been renamed to addr-spec-enc, to make clear that while it is *almost* the same as addr-spec in the main email-related RFCs, it's *not* the same. Regards, Martin. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: I-D Action:draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00.txt Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 00:00:01 -0800 From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : The 'mailto' URI/IRI Scheme Author(s) : M. Duerst, et al. Filename : draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00.txt Pages : 20 Date : 2011-03-06 This document defines the format of Uniform Resource Identifiers (URIs) and Internationalized Resource Identfiers (IRIs) to identify resources that are reached using Internet mail. It adds the possibility to use Email Address Internationalization (EAI) email addresses (RFC4952bis) to the previous syntax of 'mailto' URIs (RFC 6068). A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --------------040201030702090609050606 Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00.txt" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2011-03-06235651.I-D@ietf.org> --------------040201030702090609050606 Content-Type: text/plain; name="Attached Message Part" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Attached Message Part" X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCkktRC1B bm5vdW5jZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCkktRC1Bbm5vdW5jZUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93 d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pLWQtYW5ub3VuY2UNCkludGVybmV0LURy YWZ0IGRpcmVjdG9yaWVzOiBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL3NoYWRvdy5odG1sDQpvciBm dHA6Ly9mdHAuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaWV0Zi8xc2hhZG93LXNpdGVzLnR4dA0KDQo= --------------040201030702090609050606-- From chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Wed Mar 9 03:47:09 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 566B93A6951 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 03:47:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.175 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.175 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.575, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lPJDEvALgcn6 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 03:47:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from outbound-queue-1.mail.thdo.gradwell.net (outbound-queue-1.mail.thdo.gradwell.net [212.11.70.34]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F0983A684A for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 03:47:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from outbound-edge-2.mail.thdo.gradwell.net (bonnie.gradwell.net [212.11.70.2]) by outbound-queue-1.mail.thdo.gradwell.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F3C1221FB for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 11:48:22 +0000 (GMT) Received: from port-89.xxx.th.newnet.co.uk (HELO clerew.man.ac.uk) (80.175.135.89) (smtp-auth username postmaster%pop3.clerew.man.ac.uk, mechanism cram-md5) by outbound-edge-2.mail.thdo.gradwell.net (qpsmtpd/0.83) with (DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted) ESMTPSA; Wed, 09 Mar 2011 11:48:22 +0000 Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id p29BmL7e018977 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 11:48:22 GMT Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 11:48:21 -0000 To: IMA From: "Charles Lindsey" Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20110308011256.87690.qmail@joyce.lan> <0F7249F28559FCBABB711C29@PST.JCK.COM> <4D767047.8040608@dcrocker.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4D767047.8040608@dcrocker.net> User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.25 (SunOS) X-Gradwell-MongoId: 4d776906.f6dd-3c46-2 X-Gradwell-Auth-Method: mailbox X-Gradwell-Auth-Credentials: postmaster@pop3.clerew.man.ac.uk Subject: Re: [EAI] I-D Action: draft-ietf-eai-rfc5336bis-08.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 11:47:09 -0000 On Tue, 08 Mar 2011 18:07:03 -0000, Dave CROCKER wrote: > On 3/8/2011 12:49 AM, John C Klensin wrote: >> --On Tuesday, March 08, 2011 01:12 +0000 John Levine >> wrote: >>> I hope someone can point me at archived messages that resolve >>> this,, > > John asked for a pointer to the archive, not an assurance that the > discussion took place. > > I'd like to see the pointer, too, because your lengthy response > indicates a rather basic misunderstanding of the way MIME-handling rules > are different from SMTP-level message-handling rules. > > It also suggests a misunderstanding of the primary reason for having the > SMTP handling restriction being defined by this group: > > The issue is not whether the recipient "supports" the enhanced > characters, but the need to easily distinguish between legacy character > usage versus enhanced (UTF-8) character usage; a message having a header > using the enhanced characters might break a legacy message processing > engine. I think there are two cases the WG took into account during the early days. 1. Someone wants to send a txt document in UTF-8. OK, MIME already covers 99% of that (Content-Type gives charset=utf8 and CTE gives QP or Base64). So it can normally all happen with a legacy message. But supposing that the attachment contains a Content-Disposition with a filename in utf8, of a Content-Description in utf8. Then it technically becomes a UTF8SMTPbis message (or can RFC 2047 fix those cases?) In practice, such a message would almost certainly get through unscathed through legacy servers, but you are not supposed to do it that way. 2. Similar thing sending an rfc/822 document that happens to be a UTF8SMTPbis message. Rfc/822 is an unusual MIME type with all sorts of special restriction concerning the headers in the attached message. So again sending it as a legacy message is not allowed. It was because of the extra complications of this case that the WG invented message/global -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131     Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk      Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9      Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From johnl@iecc.com Wed Mar 9 07:17:39 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B76583A69A3 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 07:17:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.979 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.979 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.220, BAYES_00=-2.599, HABEAS_ACCREDITED_SOI=-4.3, RCVD_IN_BSP_TRUSTED=-4.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3gIDqYSBZ0dw for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 07:17:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [64.57.183.53]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F300C3A6992 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 07:17:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 69057 invoked from network); 9 Mar 2011 15:18:53 -0000 Received: from mail1.iecc.com (64.57.183.56) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 9 Mar 2011 15:18:53 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:cc:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:vbr-info; s=913f.4d779a5d.k1103; i=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=9sKx8t/6aMAXfENFtVaXc8b/N+gDmls5arqtGK4c9X0=; b=V0XaYLlKXL3v9159xnW4xk305csjctVKojecE5PBd6Eo7fU9icwIlXk8o2CY4gU/W/KtfyguWrUuP95wp8gyc3MgKjnmDMDfbpiG6QkZxk0BUqGzoc4prrJm4WgBt73XiPWyvZ623JzqMf5ZvHE2jnIVjFn519FI4dQI8e6vZzg= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:cc:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:vbr-info; s=913f.4d779a5d.k1103; olt=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=9sKx8t/6aMAXfENFtVaXc8b/N+gDmls5arqtGK4c9X0=; b=r3wCBD1LDBMMqlOSZ//mZ0iiJZnWhBcsLa19ii+RutVVS/cRniJP62twK/lSuz5qOynW7JQQnuuo4LWQ5qqn46RyupcELb750KyrU2xD+ao0+E/O6018R6zZXf0eJer8DzLL2nHDfY94QAhEowf31svyDjre2lgDtdGD5622Dzs= VBR-Info: md=iecc.com; mc=all; mv=dwl.spamhaus.org Date: 9 Mar 2011 15:18:53 -0000 Message-ID: <20110309151853.37182.qmail@joyce.lan> From: John Levine To: ima@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <4D767047.8040608@dcrocker.net> Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Cc: dcrocker@bbiw.net Subject: Re: [EAI] message/global, was I-D Action X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 15:17:39 -0000 >Consequently the SMTP-level restriction on the carriage of message/global is >gratuitous, serving mostly to raise yet-another high barrier to adoption for >interoperable UTF-8. It also qualifies as a layer violation. Squinting at the specs, I note that RFC 2045 section 6.4 says that a message/* MIME part can only be encoded with "7bit", "8bit", or "binary", on the theory that anything else would make it too hard to find the MIME structure of the enclosed message. This means that a message with a message/global part would always need a server that handles 8BITMIME or CHUNKING to handle the message. It would be straightforward to adjust the draft to say something suitable, e.g., the usual rules apply about what encodings can go over what transport, but since there are restrictions either way on how you can send message/global, it seems less compelling. R's, John Counter Argument: no matter what we say, people will send message/global attachments over 8bitmime with or without the EAI flag, so we might as well adjust to spec to describe the inevitable practice. From dhc2@dcrocker.net Wed Mar 9 10:19:35 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA3143A698F for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 10:19:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GndXzCgOv16J for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 10:19:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C61323A6966 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 10:19:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.8] (adsl-67-127-56-68.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.127.56.68]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id p29IKgeL012946 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 9 Mar 2011 10:20:47 -0800 Message-ID: <4D77C4F8.7090201@dcrocker.net> Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 10:20:40 -0800 From: Dave CROCKER Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.15) Gecko/20110303 Thunderbird/3.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charles Lindsey References: <20110308011256.87690.qmail@joyce.lan> <0F7249F28559FCBABB711C29@PST.JCK.COM> <4D767047.8040608@dcrocker.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Wed, 09 Mar 2011 10:20:48 -0800 (PST) Cc: IMA Subject: Re: [EAI] I-D Action: draft-ietf-eai-rfc5336bis-08.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 18:19:35 -0000 On 3/9/2011 3:48 AM, Charles Lindsey wrote: > supposing that the attachment contains a Content-Disposition with a filename in > utf8, of a Content-Description in utf8. Then it technically becomes a > UTF8SMTPbis message (or can RFC 2047 fix those cases?) In practice, such a > message would almost certainly get through unscathed through legacy servers, but > you are not supposed to do it that way. Since you are referring to a header field, the existing rules of UTF8SMTPbis apply. In terms of handling rules, it actually has nothing to do with MIME. > 2. Similar thing sending an rfc/822 document that happens to be a UTF8SMTPbis > message. > > Rfc/822 is an unusual MIME type with all sorts of special restriction concerning > the headers in the attached message. So again sending it as a legacy message is > not allowed. It was because of the extra complications of this case that the WG > invented message/global The need for continuing the restriction on message/rfc-822 encoding restrictions has been challenged recently; certainly there is no obvious argument for extending it so something new, nor for imposing a requirement of end-to-end support of a new extension. But really, I do not understand your second point. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com Wed Mar 9 12:10:27 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FFBF3A6A89 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 12:10:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3ycgGfTFPUYJ for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 12:10:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12C163A6A7F for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 12:10:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from TK5EX14MLTC102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.79.180) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.176.0; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 12:11:39 -0800 Received: from TK5EX14MBXC139.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([169.254.7.69]) by TK5EX14MLTC102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.79.180]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.002; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 12:11:39 -0800 From: Shawn Steele To: "ima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: I-D Action:draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00.txt Thread-Index: AcvelRsOpz+ha3/STQCzQiwEjwAJUA== Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 20:11:38 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [157.54.51.75] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [EAI] FYI: I-D Action:draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 20:10:27 -0000 I don't like the MUST on % encoding for non-ASCII. In practice even curren= t systems don't rely on that for mailto. (eg: mailto: an EAI address will = invoke Outlook on an IE machine today. You're stuck after that, but mailto= "works"). I realize why the MUST seems useful, but, in practice, I don't see how it h= elps at all. Unaware systems get gibberish either way, and it's trivial to= allow EAI-aware systems to use UTF-8 natively, so the compatibility concer= ns seem like a red herring to me. (Let's not let this distract from the core docs though) -Shawn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 18:12:45 +0900 From: "Martin J. D?rst" Subject: [EAI] FYI: I-D Action:draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00.txt To: "ima@ietf.org" Message-ID: <4D77448D.4000205@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"; Format=3D"flowed" This draft may be of interest to some WG participants, as it is in the long= -term part of the charter. I have asked the Co-Chairs to put it on the agen= da of the WG meeting in Prague if they feel there may be enough time and en= ergy left. I have tried to address earlier comments (in particular also from John K.) regarding hidden encoding/decoding complexity by explicitly renaming AB= NF rules. As an example, the addr-spec rule has been renamed to addr-spec-e= nc, to make clear that while it is *almost* the same as addr-spec in the ma= in email-related RFCs, it's *not* the same. Regards, Martin. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: I-D Action:draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00.txt Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 00:00:01 -0800 From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. Title : The 'mailto' URI/IRI Scheme Author(s) : M. Duerst, et al. Filename : draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00.txt Pages : 20 Date : 2011-03-06 This document defines the format of Uniform Resource Identifiers (URIs) and Internationalized Resource Identfiers (IRIs) to identify resourc= es that are reached using Internet mail. It adds the possibility to use Em= ail Address Internationalization (EAI) email addresses (RFC4952bis) to the = previous syntax of 'mailto' URIs (RFC 6068). A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementa= tion to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. From yaojk@cnnic.cn Wed Mar 9 17:02:30 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D4CB3A6B20 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 17:02:30 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Duplicate header field: "Message-ID" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.933 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.933 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.110, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.803, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ossRIF+yfhAg for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 17:02:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from cnnic.cn (smtp.cnnic.cn [159.226.7.146]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D998E3A6937 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 17:02:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (eyou send program); Thu, 10 Mar 2011 09:03:41 +0800 Message-ID: <499719021.32201@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO lenovo47e041cf) (127.0.0.1) by 127.0.0.1 with SMTP; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 09:03:41 +0800 Message-ID: <30A0918C0B7A44F1AF8D356B34C2ABAF@LENOVO47E041CF> From: "Jiankang YAO" To: "John Levine" , References: <499546807.06998@cnnic.cn> Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 09:03:42 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 Subject: Re: [EAI] I-D Action: draft-ietf-eai-rfc5336bis-08.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 01:02:30 -0000 DQotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KRnJvbTogIkpvaG4gTGV2aW5lIiA8am9o bmxAdGF1Z2guY29tPg0KVG86IDxpbWFAaWV0Zi5vcmc+DQpDYzogPEludGVybmV0LURyYWZ0c0Bp ZXRmLm9yZz4NClNlbnQ6IFR1ZXNkYXksIE1hcmNoIDA4LCAyMDExIDk6MTIgQU0NClN1YmplY3Q6 IFJlOiBbRUFJXSBJLUQgQWN0aW9uOiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWVhaS1yZmM1MzM2YmlzLTA4LnR4dA0K DQoNCj4gPiBGaWxlbmFtZSAgICAgICAgOiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWVhaS1yZmM1MzM2YmlzLTA4LnR4 dA0KPiANCj4gSSBob3BlIHNvbWVvbmUgY2FuIHBvaW50IG1lIGF0IGFyY2hpdmVkIG1lc3NhZ2Vz IHRoYXQgcmVzb2x2ZSB0aGlzLA0KPg0KDQpJIHRyeSB0byBkaWcgdGhlIGFyY2hpdmVkIG1lc3Nh Z3MsIGFuZCBmaW5kIHRoZSBmb2xsb3dpbmcgbGlua3M6DQoNCg0KRnJhbmsgRWxsZXJtYW5uIGhh ZCB0aGUgc2ltaWxhciBjb21tZW50cyBpbiAyMDA4Og0KaHR0cDovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWls LWFyY2hpdmUvd2ViL2ltYS9jdXJyZW50L21zZzAyNDE3Lmh0bWwNCg0KQ2hhcmxlcyBMaW5kc2V5 IGhhZCB0aGUgcmVsYXRlZCBjb21tZW50cyB0b286DQpodHRwOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWwt YXJjaGl2ZS93ZWIvaW1hL2N1cnJlbnQvbXNnMDI1NTguaHRtbA0KDQpIYXJhbGQgQWx2ZXN0cmFu ZCBoYWQgcmVjb3JkZWQgdGhlICJyZWxhdGVkIiBjb21tZW50cyBhcyANCiINClRoaXMgbWVzc2Fn ZSBoYXMgYmVlbiByZWNvcmRlZCBhcyBhIGNvbW1lbnQgb24gY2xvc2VkIGlzc3VlICMxNDg1Lg0K Ig0KaHR0cDovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsLWFyY2hpdmUvd2ViL2ltYS9jdXJyZW50L21zZzAy MTg4Lmh0bWwNCg0KDQoNCkppYW5rYW5nIFlhbw0KDQo+DQo+IGJ1dCB3aGF0J3MgdGhlIHJlYXNv biB0aGF0IHNlY3Rpb24gMy4yIHNheXMgdGhhdCB5b3UgbmVlZCB0byBoYXZlDQo+IGEgVVRGOFNN VFBiaXMgc2Vzc2lvbiB0byBwYXNzIGEgbWVzc2FnZS9nbG9iYWwgYXMgYSBNSU1FIHBhcnQ/ICBJ DQo+IHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgd2h5IGl0J2QgYmUgYSBwcm9ibGVtIGlmIHNlbnQgYXMgOGJpdCwgYnV0 IGlmIGl0J3MNCj4gUVAgb3IgYmFzZTY0LCB3aGF0J3MgdGhlIGRpZmZlcmVuY2UgYmV0d2VlbiB0 aGF0IGFuZCBhbnkgcmFuZG9tDQo+IGFwcGxpY2F0aW9uL3guc29tZXRoaW5neW91bmV2ZXJoZWFy ZG9mIHRoYXQgcGVvcGxlIHNlbmQgYWxsIHRoZSB0aW1lPw0KPiANCj4gUidzLA0KPiBKb2huDQo+ IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IElNQSBt YWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gSU1BQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxt YW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaW1h From johnl@taugh.com Wed Mar 9 17:54:32 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B4693A6819 for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 17:54:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.985 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.985 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.214, BAYES_00=-2.599, HABEAS_ACCREDITED_SOI=-4.3, RCVD_IN_BSP_TRUSTED=-4.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pJKpqOaA7+iS for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 17:54:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [64.57.183.53]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA8033A680F for ; Wed, 9 Mar 2011 17:54:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 33686 invoked from network); 10 Mar 2011 01:55:46 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:vbr-info:user-agent:cleverness; s=8395.4d782fa2.k1103; i=johnl@submit.iecc.com; bh=4Af6cxzCGYFnMUnKfdT9F+bBQwYkeG5R1Gpp6F+O/EI=; b=rVKydOi4MzYZiBWHKIDvDs5ILCYaqM9iUW/z6iYELlu91jCu5JC1NRW3fl20i4GZTklYq6uOJKjyKEdIf4KX16BvcwdifTmVkn5JGQ/EjrS66wjCy5cDCdQWEdAZLHVWk9M0y8szj3R+OaDByuqFrDqfKB99tlaCzIHEu+DHx7c= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:vbr-info:user-agent:cleverness; s=8395.4d782fa2.k1103; olt=johnl@submit.iecc.com; bh=4Af6cxzCGYFnMUnKfdT9F+bBQwYkeG5R1Gpp6F+O/EI=; b=wwtmdmcvhvJK9zI9n1c9YjqSfoVakknm+DMMm7uiEKNK4zrbC6ZsNPyzcq8+zTnMucCVAdAVNXKGmbqs3XZAI93aEgXFgpoZVOjHCZYHVfYVyzaKfa8XBmE6DV2kQ7Jz6+pXJAYBEnV/Fkx5tBVpQ7NfIHNAlkqz/RHBZbrTCQ4= VBR-Info: md=iecc.com; mc=all; mv=dwl.spamhaus.org Received: (ofmipd johnl@64.57.183.62) with (DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 10 Mar 2011 01:55:24 -0000 Date: 9 Mar 2011 20:55:46 -0500 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: ima@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <30A0918C0B7A44F1AF8D356B34C2ABAF@LENOVO47E041CF> References: <499546807.06998@cnnic.cn> <30A0918C0B7A44F1AF8D356B34C2ABAF@LENOVO47E041CF> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: [EAI] message/global vs. content encoding vs. EAI flags X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 01:54:32 -0000 >> I hope someone can point me at archived messages that resolve this, I looked at archived messages, and now I'm more confused than ever. The draft of 5335bis relaxes the encoding rule, so that a message/global can be encoded using base64 or quoted-printable for a 7-bit path. But 5336bis says that you can only send a message/global if the EAI flag is set, in which case you know you have 8bitmime, and the encoding isn't needed. Either one makes sense in isolation, but together they're just wrong. At this point I don't have a strong preference for which one to change, but we better change one of them. Or maybe I should read this sentence on page 7 of 5336bis creatively: If the UTF8SMTPbis SMTP extension is not offered by the SMTP server, the EAI-aware SMTP client MUST NOT transmit an internationalized email address and MUST NOT transmit a mail message containing internationalized mail headers as described in [RFC5335bis] at any level within its MIME structure [RFC2045] and [RFC2047]. Well, gosh, if the MIME part is base64 or q-p encoded, there's no internationalized mail headers, there's just some strings of ASCII characters which someone might at some later time decode but that's none of our business. Hence, you can send a 7bit encoded message/global whether or not the EAI flag is set. If you think this interpretation is silly (which I wouldn't deny), please also say why it's sillier than the alternatives. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY "I dropped the toothpaste", said Tom, crestfallenly. From chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Thu Mar 10 03:12:46 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C9873A68F3 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 03:12:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.059 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.059 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.460, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EbX5FVOkF-ik for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 03:12:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from outbound-queue-1.mail.thdo.gradwell.net (outbound-queue-1.mail.thdo.gradwell.net [212.11.70.34]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EBB13A68F9 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 03:12:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from outbound-edge-2.mail.thdo.gradwell.net (bonnie.gradwell.net [212.11.70.2]) by outbound-queue-1.mail.thdo.gradwell.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2D38224BD for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 11:13:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from port-89.xxx.th.newnet.co.uk (HELO clerew.man.ac.uk) (80.175.135.89) (smtp-auth username postmaster%pop3.clerew.man.ac.uk, mechanism cram-md5) by outbound-edge-2.mail.thdo.gradwell.net (qpsmtpd/0.83) with (DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted) ESMTPSA; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 11:13:54 +0000 Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id p2ABDr6e009569 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 11:13:54 GMT Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 11:13:53 -0000 To: IMA From: "Charles Lindsey" Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <499546807.06998@cnnic.cn> <30A0918C0B7A44F1AF8D356B34C2ABAF@LENOVO47E041CF> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.25 (SunOS) X-Gradwell-MongoId: 4d78b272.17c44-4b6d-2 X-Gradwell-Auth-Method: mailbox X-Gradwell-Auth-Credentials: postmaster@pop3.clerew.man.ac.uk Subject: Re: [EAI] message/global vs. content encoding vs. EAI flags X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 11:12:46 -0000 On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 01:55:46 -0000, John R Levine wrote: >>> I hope someone can point me at archived messages that resolve this, > > I looked at archived messages, and now I'm more confused than ever. > > The draft of 5335bis relaxes the encoding rule, so that a message/global > can be encoded using base64 or quoted-printable for a 7-bit path. I think that may be a relic of the days when we were specifying a downgrade mechanism which wojld have dealt with such a message/global in that way. > > But 5336bis says that you can only send a message/global if the EAI flag > is set, in which case you know you have 8bitmime, and the encoding isn't > needed. Indeed, but if some adventurous server wants to attempt a downgrade (I don't think we have forbidden that) then the QP or Base64 would be needed, and since it would work there is no reason to forbid it. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131     Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk      Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9      Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Thu Mar 10 03:20:59 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82C263A6A05 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 03:20:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.983 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.983 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.384, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tu+IenAfH4UV for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 03:20:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from outbound-queue-1.mail.thdo.gradwell.net (outbound-queue-1.mail.thdo.gradwell.net [212.11.70.34]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E34A43A69F9 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 03:20:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from outbound-edge-2.mail.thdo.gradwell.net (bonnie.gradwell.net [212.11.70.2]) by outbound-queue-1.mail.thdo.gradwell.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC3A82258F for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 11:22:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from port-89.xxx.th.newnet.co.uk (HELO clerew.man.ac.uk) (80.175.135.89) (smtp-auth username postmaster%pop3.clerew.man.ac.uk, mechanism cram-md5) by outbound-edge-2.mail.thdo.gradwell.net (qpsmtpd/0.83) with (DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted) ESMTPSA; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 11:22:04 +0000 Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id p2ABM3qF010060 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 11:22:04 GMT Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 11:22:03 -0000 To: IMA From: "Charles Lindsey" Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20110308011256.87690.qmail@joyce.lan> <0F7249F28559FCBABB711C29@PST.JCK.COM> <4D767047.8040608@dcrocker.net> <4D77C4F8.7090201@dcrocker.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4D77C4F8.7090201@dcrocker.net> User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.25 (SunOS) X-Gradwell-MongoId: 4d78b45c.16fff-35bf-2 X-Gradwell-Auth-Method: mailbox X-Gradwell-Auth-Credentials: postmaster@pop3.clerew.man.ac.uk Subject: Re: [EAI] I-D Action: draft-ietf-eai-rfc5336bis-08.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 11:20:59 -0000 On Wed, 09 Mar 2011 18:20:40 -0000, Dave CROCKER wrote: > On 3/9/2011 3:48 AM, Charles Lindsey wrote: >> supposing that the attachment contains a Content-Disposition with a >> filename in >> utf8, of a Content-Description in utf8. Then it technically becomes a >> UTF8SMTPbis message (or can RFC 2047 fix those cases?) In practice, >> such a >> message would almost certainly get through unscathed through legacy >> servers, but >> you are not supposed to do it that way. > > Since you are referring to a header field, the existing rules of > UTF8SMTPbis apply. > > In terms of handling rules, it actually has nothing to do with MIME. the case I was referring to was where there was a multipart mixed one of whose components started with a Content-* header using UTF8. Insofar as we allow that (as I understand we do) we are extending MIME as used within UTF8SMTPbis messages. > > >> 2. Similar thing sending an rfc/822 document that happens to be a >> UTF8SMTPbis >> message.global > > The need for continuing the restriction on message/rfc-822 encoding > restrictions has been challenged recently; certainly there is no obvious > argument for extending it so something new, nor for imposing a > requirement of end-to-end support of a new extension. If they are going to relax some restriction on message/rfc822, that may be a Good Thing, but it hasn't happened yet, so your document has to be written in terms of the existing MIME rules. And sending a message/rfc822 with utf8 in its headers (and MIME does not apply any CTE to those headers) does not currently work. Which is why message/glonal had to be invented. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131     Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk      Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9      Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From ned+ima@mrochek.com Thu Mar 10 13:03:44 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 776643A6A7D for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:03:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.382 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.382 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.217, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kKcecxsLzWc1 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:03:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0BC83A6945 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:03:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01NYQZ1DDXB400P42I@mauve.mrochek.com> for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:04:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01NYPGMQSW9S007FL5@mauve.mrochek.com> (original mail from NED@mauve.mrochek.com) for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:04:50 -0800 (PST) From: ned+ima@mrochek.com Message-id: <01NYQZ1BG2LK007FL5@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 12:41:03 -0800 (PST) In-reply-to: "Your message dated Tue, 08 Mar 2011 10:07:03 -0800" <4D767047.8040608@dcrocker.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; Format=flowed References: <20110308011256.87690.qmail@joyce.lan> <0F7249F28559FCBABB711C29@PST.JCK.COM> <4D767047.8040608@dcrocker.net> To: Dave CROCKER DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mrochek.com; s=mauve; t=1299787354; bh=EW0bjVZtUZ5hlz1j9jHhGpm2IHUJjUXHqWTEnFKiy/o=; h=From:Cc:Message-id:Date:Subject:In-reply-to:MIME-version: Content-type:References:To; b=eEtDmSktASNw0obw/SmIvO4VK5n1/RwYxLfk3j102FhJCRcjdrrykuLsw0sY/csEZ uIzoPFf2bKAwUKyl5XPUQ9v/UF3Dd2wtktH/8ocEM2a4egz397BP/qN86smoqwJDZN vnnNBFWOjB9qJjFVpHwTDbmYNmLCpdWrvmnyjalg= Cc: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org, ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] I-D Action: draft-ietf-eai-rfc5336bis-08.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 21:03:44 -0000 > On 3/8/2011 12:49 AM, John C Klensin wrote: > > --On Tuesday, March 08, 2011 01:12 +0000 John Levine > > wrote: > >> I hope someone can point me at archived messages that resolve > >> this,, > John asked for a pointer to the archive, not an assurance that the discussion > took place. > I'd like to see the pointer, too, because your lengthy response indicates a > rather basic misunderstanding of the way MIME-handling rules are different from > SMTP-level message-handling rules. > It also suggests a misunderstanding of the primary reason for having the SMTP > handling restriction being defined by this group: > The issue is not whether the recipient "supports" the enhanced characters, > but the need to easily distinguish between legacy character usage versus > enhanced (UTF-8) character usage; a message having a header using the enhanced > characters might break a legacy message processing engine. > When aa established base of data processing software is handed data that > falls outside of the range that was previously legal, it is likely that some of > that software will break or will damage the data. > The SMTP-level rule is the means of ensuring that receiving engines will > not break and will not erroneously modify the data. > By contrast, MIME uses the Content-type field to provide an "out of band" > indication of the type, so that a processing engine that dives into the MIME > content is forewarned. As with all MIME labels, message/global means both "the > body part contains the labeled type of data" but also "do not process this > body-part unless you understand that type of data." Correct, although message/global is in some senses a special case like multipart or message/rfc822 - it can be seen as a structural artefact rather than a proper type. > In other words, the rules for propagating a new MIME content-type are -- and > need to be -- fundamentally different than for a new type of email header. > Currently, folks frequently pass around MIME attachments for data the recipient > cannot (currently) process. It's legal and actually constructive. Yes, but again, the difference is we're talking about a structural message element. It's one thing not to be able to interpret the contents of a leaf part; it's a bit different when the failure to interpet the part may affect the processing of the message as a whole. But that said, while the difference is real, I don't believe it is anywhere near sufficient to justify having the restriction. Such restrictions invariably prove to be barriers to deployment, sometimes becoming problematic in entirely unexpected ways. > Consequently the SMTP-level restriction on the carriage of message/global is > gratuitous, serving mostly to raise yet-another high barrier to adoption for > interoperable UTF-8. It also qualifies as a layer violation. I agree with the former and support dropping the restriction, but it's actually something of a judgement call. I'm not sure it qualifies as a layer violation, however - this is where the structural aspects may come into play. > Note that a major factor in MIME's success was precisely because it did NOT > impose a restriction like this. It meant that any two cooperating MUAs could > process the data, without being dependent on an upgrade of the infrastructure. > The current draft's restriction makes it impossible for the MUAs to pass an > attachment that happens to be message/global even though all sorts of other > attachments can be passed that the recipient might not be able to process. That's exactly why the restriction should be removed. > > Nothing in any of the base MIME or message header specs permits > ... > > It is received at example.net with SMTP extensions 8BITMIME and > > UTF8SMTPbis. So far, so good. > Also so far, so irrelevant. > The first part of your message covers the handling of a message from posting to > delivery and has nothing to do with MIME message/global. How the message/global > content came into being is irrelevant. > What is relevant is that someone wants to send a message with a message/global > attachment. > > If example.net (or the MUA) were sufficiently clever, turning > > SomeNonASCII into encoded words is well-specified, as is > > encoding the message text in Base64 and changing the C-T-E to > > Base64 to match. But there is no downgrade mechanism for the > > actual address/mailbox part of the "To:" header field. > You are inventing a requirement that the infrastructure provide assurance that a > recipient can process a particular MIME type. > I believe this is both brand new and counter-productive. No, it's not new. It was discussed at length during the development of MIME, and even came close to derailing things a couple of times. The problem is that while it would in some ways be nice to operate in a world with more constraints on how things are represented, this is in no way, shape, or form the world we actually operate in, and there's ample "running code"* to show that attempts to impose this sort of thing at the email transport layer do not work. > Defining the new MIME message type is fine and appropriate. +1 > Specifying special transport handling restrictions is not. +1 Ned * There have been several attempts to do this sort of thing, but the one that really stands out is X.400. The original X.400 specification actually went so far as to define all the media types you were supposed to use, even including what was effectively a simple word processing format. The only escape hatch was a typeless unlabelled octet stream object. And of all the mistakes that X.400 made, this was the one that topped the list of things that people immediately and actively tried to fix. Keep in mind that this was an email protocol without a proper way to represent user *addreses*, and yet the pressure to deal with the addressing problem was less than there was to be able to send arbitrary typed attachments. From ned+ima@mrochek.com Thu Mar 10 13:15:09 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07A863A6ABE for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:15:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.413 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.413 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.186, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KD0lhkokNJH1 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:15:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C85453A6AAF for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:15:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01NYQZFKHQR4008HAS@mauve.mrochek.com> for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:16:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01NYPGMQSW9S007FL5@mauve.mrochek.com> (original mail from NED@mauve.mrochek.com) for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:16:18 -0800 (PST) From: ned+ima@mrochek.com Message-id: <01NYQZFJ8RQI007FL5@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:05:45 -0800 (PST) In-reply-to: "Your message dated Wed, 09 Mar 2011 15:18:53 +0000" <20110309151853.37182.qmail@joyce.lan> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN References: <4D767047.8040608@dcrocker.net> <20110309151853.37182.qmail@joyce.lan> To: John Levine DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mrochek.com; s=mauve; t=1299788041; bh=nh71sapAVPEO+7G/O7CNexmBGG6hi2sPo40lfT/rA/4=; h=From:Cc:Message-id:Date:Subject:In-reply-to:MIME-version: Content-type:References:To; b=gVzFs+ThHHqWwLdl8lvu5KnLytZZxHJJr6SH3cjwfc1zMPWRaCuA5O4FLydiUcz3Q +MzDSy8DMF4YqntmeKGLUmc673AjqKgwzaFJnZrYPf/4uGdDA199F0yoCO1h1W9ZLm nFBzzi2shVaooh4PJiZ00ZhZIzmPPejkkEO024CQ= Cc: ima@ietf.org, dcrocker@bbiw.net Subject: Re: [EAI] message/global, was I-D Action X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 21:15:09 -0000 > >Consequently the SMTP-level restriction on the carriage of message/global is > >gratuitous, serving mostly to raise yet-another high barrier to adoption for > >interoperable UTF-8. It also qualifies as a layer violation. > Squinting at the specs, I note that RFC 2045 section 6.4 says that a > message/* MIME part can only be encoded with "7bit", "8bit", or > "binary", on the theory that anything else would make it too hard to > find the MIME structure of the enclosed message. This means that a > message with a message/global part would always need a server that > handles 8BITMIME or CHUNKING to handle the message. Yes, this is an unfortunate restriction that should have only been applied to message/rfc822. We need to just fix it, since the alternatives of moving the message/global type under application or defining a new messagebis top level type are much less appealing. > It would be straightforward to adjust the draft to say something > suitable, e.g., the usual rules apply about what encodings can go over > what transport, but since there are restrictions either way on how you > can send message/global, it seems less compelling. > R's, > John > Counter Argument: no matter what we say, people will send > message/global attachments over 8bitmime with or without the EAI flag, > so we might as well adjust to spec to describe the inevitable > practice. I actually don't find this argument to be hugely compelling, but there's a related one that is. Consider the problem a MIME processor faces that needs to downgrade an 8bit or binary MIME message to 7bit. If that processor encounters a message/rfc822 part, there's no problem: It descends into the part and applies encoding to the parts contained inside; no need to apply a non-identity CTE to the enclosing part. But when you hit a message/* part of some other type you don't recognize with an 8bit or binary CTE (and content to match), you're screwed: You don't know the structure so you can't go inside, and you can't apply a CTE to the part without breaking the rules. In practice what happens is the rule is ignored. And this is entirely appropriate because it's a bad rule that should never have been put in MIME in the first place. But that means not only is message/global going to leak, it's going to get encoded once it does - and probably in some cases where no actual leakage is involved. All this is the price we pay for adding a structural element to MIME very late in the game. And I'd be against making this set of changes if there was any reasonable alternative, but AFAICT there isn't. Ned From johnl@taugh.com Thu Mar 10 13:26:39 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 234A73A6A7F for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:26:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.992 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.992 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.207, BAYES_00=-2.599, HABEAS_ACCREDITED_SOI=-4.3, RCVD_IN_BSP_TRUSTED=-4.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x05niF7WZsUu for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:26:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [64.57.183.53]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A48C3A6A5D for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:26:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 31837 invoked from network); 10 Mar 2011 21:27:54 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:vbr-info:user-agent:cleverness; s=7c5c.4d79425a.k1103; i=johnl@submit.iecc.com; bh=sxhbXcI06zLdMcCCpmywzXwNHNE3zoJGdDxAuoXAVgs=; b=GBb1sHNRe/WysTdMBJq/BiX5xgOjRORJiSkvH6BbVGMzFpNgcJlNd5PNUGHAaUoIpWNAU1Ig8eqJL/SOxdXQaiYYX6FXrJMs2hQx6uTZaAPFPVhmgERRtXBwRHI45OKJDfyFNiI4SqApXA3ZSu8NwdSfzlnPY8/AThjv8n9m8xA= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:vbr-info:user-agent:cleverness; s=7c5c.4d79425a.k1103; olt=johnl@submit.iecc.com; bh=sxhbXcI06zLdMcCCpmywzXwNHNE3zoJGdDxAuoXAVgs=; b=bmuE6RkaHCZG2NCtQS67Bldfth5D5bnlO87KXI0RXxY+7tE8F/O/ANGRlbpVnBWJ6yhzlBwN0QfDP+FtTuWm8bNKs8nj2FkEXktRag9WBjD+mRM5oztZt2BTrV2qeovM9kQBxWU1lAw7EDcygYTCOC+ttpiDmvsjDN9HFBKKVGg= VBR-Info: md=iecc.com; mc=all; mv=dwl.spamhaus.org Received: (ofmipd johnl@64.57.183.62) with (DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 10 Mar 2011 21:27:32 -0000 Date: 10 Mar 2011 16:27:53 -0500 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Ned Freed" In-Reply-To: <01NYQZFJ8RQI007FL5@mauve.mrochek.com> References: <4D767047.8040608@dcrocker.net> <20110309151853.37182.qmail@joyce.lan> <01NYQZFJ8RQI007FL5@mauve.mrochek.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] message/global, was I-D Action X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 21:26:39 -0000 >> Squinting at the specs, I note that RFC 2045 section 6.4 says that a >> message/* MIME part can only be encoded with "7bit", "8bit", or >> "binary" ... > Yes, this is an unfortunate restriction that should have only been > applied to message/rfc822. We need to just fix it, since the > alternatives of moving the message/global type under application or > defining a new messagebis top level type are much less appealing. See subsequent message -- it's fixed in 5335bis which says you can encode message/global any way you want. > In practice what happens is the rule is ignored. And this is entirely > appropriate because it's a bad rule that should never have been put in MIME in > the first place. But that means not only is message/global going to leak, it's > going to get encoded once it does - and probably in some cases where no > actual leakage is involved. Do we agree that the 5336bis rule about needing the EAI flag for mail that contains message/global is wrong? That seems the natural result here. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY "I dropped the toothpaste", said Tom, crestfallenly. From ned+ima@mrochek.com Thu Mar 10 13:43:49 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 214CD3A6AB1 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:43:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.162, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9Z9Vw+YmoGoz for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:43:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 135433A6AA2 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:43:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01NYR0G54SPC00P6IU@mauve.mrochek.com> for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:45:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01NYPGMQSW9S007FL5@mauve.mrochek.com> (original mail from NED@mauve.mrochek.com) for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:44:58 -0800 (PST) From: ned+ima@mrochek.com Message-id: <01NYR0G27JOA007FL5@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:44:42 -0800 (PST) In-reply-to: "Your message dated Thu, 10 Mar 2011 16:27:53 -0500" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed References: <4D767047.8040608@dcrocker.net> <20110309151853.37182.qmail@joyce.lan> <01NYQZFJ8RQI007FL5@mauve.mrochek.com> To: John R Levine DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mrochek.com; s=mauve; t=1299789763; bh=rtLVpkSITO1VRu0RQCKxE9IHomAOYw9SxSASRMZxmhQ=; h=From:Cc:Message-id:Date:Subject:In-reply-to:MIME-version: Content-type:References:To; b=dWvujcPJLxrzDdNIS1YeJg5ab2lKFetSfZuTeN1VICR8jD6dWuGdZkTT57708Itnd ZAGQaD0abAIkcCgaZ4u2n5KwSME0pDvtMQW9ZWWurtzDkD0VRAECaSQ3hY2xZQLv8x 6JE4scU/LOOrg5+6arjZyymj5kDv+1FuKQIA2u3g= Cc: Ned Freed , ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] message/global, was I-D Action X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 21:43:49 -0000 > >> Squinting at the specs, I note that RFC 2045 section 6.4 says that a > >> message/* MIME part can only be encoded with "7bit", "8bit", or > >> "binary" ... > > Yes, this is an unfortunate restriction that should have only been > > applied to message/rfc822. We need to just fix it, since the > > alternatives of moving the message/global type under application or > > defining a new messagebis top level type are much less appealing. > See subsequent message -- it's fixed in 5335bis which says you can encode > message/global any way you want. > > In practice what happens is the rule is ignored. And this is entirely > > appropriate because it's a bad rule that should never have been put in MIME in > > the first place. But that means not only is message/global going to leak, it's > > going to get encoded once it does - and probably in some cases where no > > actual leakage is involved. > Do we agree that the 5336bis rule about needing the EAI flag for mail that > contains message/global is wrong? That seems the natural result here. Yes and it is the natural result. Ned From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Thu Mar 10 18:53:38 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5DA03A6819 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 18:53:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.831 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.831 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.041, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RLnPxhZI6XnE for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 18:53:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from scintmta01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scintmta01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.33]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 930423A67F2 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 18:53:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.231]) by scintmta01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id p2B2skDq001506 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 11:54:47 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 6a2b_4858_ecac19f4_4b8a_11e0_94c5_001d096c566a; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 11:54:46 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:46682) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 11:54:47 +0900 Message-ID: <4D798EDA.8090901@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 11:54:18 +0900 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100722 Eudora/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Shawn Steele References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: "ima@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [EAI] FYI: I-D Action:draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 02:53:39 -0000 Hello Shawn, Thanks for your comments. On 2011/03/10 5:11, Shawn Steele wrote: > I don't like the MUST on % encoding for non-ASCII. Just to make sure, do you mean some of the MUSTs in point 4 and 5 in section 2 (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00#section-2), essentially of the form non-ASCII characters MUST first be encoded according to UTF-8 [STD63], and then each octet of the corresponding UTF-8 sequence MUST be percent-encoded to be represented as URI characters > In practice even current systems don't rely on that for mailto. That's fine. That just means that they don't use URIs, they use IRIs. The document is defined in terms of URIs, where non-ASCII characters are forbidden. In order to also work with IRIs, the above text is the necessary "secret formula" or "magic keyword". > (eg: mailto: an EAI address will invoke Outlook on an IE machine today. You're stuck after that, but mailto "works"). It's great to know that mailto: already works with IRIs! > I realize why the MUST seems useful, but, in practice, I don't see how it helps at all. Do you think it would be easier to write the spec in terms of IRIs? > Unaware systems get gibberish either way, and it's trivial to allow EAI-aware systems to use UTF-8 natively, Yes, of course, but please remember that mailto: is used both for EAI-aware and non-EAI-aware systems. > so the compatibility concerns seem like a red herring to me. > > (Let's not let this distract from the core docs though) Yes indeed. For general discussions about URIs vs. IRIs, please move them to the IRI WG (mailing list public-iri@w3.org). Regards, Martin. > -Shawn > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 18:12:45 +0900 > From: "Martin J. D?rst" > Subject: [EAI] FYI: I-D Action:draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00.txt > To: "ima@ietf.org" > Message-ID:<4D77448D.4000205@it.aoyama.ac.jp> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" > > This draft may be of interest to some WG participants, as it is in the long-term part of the charter. I have asked the Co-Chairs to put it on the agenda of the WG meeting in Prague if they feel there may be enough time and energy left. > > I have tried to address earlier comments (in particular also from John > K.) regarding hidden encoding/decoding complexity by explicitly renaming ABNF rules. As an example, the addr-spec rule has been renamed to addr-spec-enc, to make clear that while it is *almost* the same as addr-spec in the main email-related RFCs, it's *not* the same. > > Regards, Martin. > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: I-D Action:draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00.txt > Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 00:00:01 -0800 > From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > > Title : The 'mailto' URI/IRI Scheme > Author(s) : M. Duerst, et al. > Filename : draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00.txt > Pages : 20 > Date : 2011-03-06 > > This document defines the format of Uniform Resource Identifiers > (URIs) and Internationalized Resource Identfiers (IRIs) to identify resources that are reached using Internet mail. It adds the possibility to use Email Address Internationalization (EAI) email addresses (RFC4952bis) to the previous syntax of 'mailto' URIs (RFC 6068). > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00.txt > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. > > _______________________________________________ > IMA mailing list > IMA@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima > > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com Thu Mar 10 19:15:43 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF3C33A6B52 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 19:15:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.149 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.149 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.450, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G8Zme0WSnWxO for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 19:15:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailc.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A5A73A6804 for ; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 19:15:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from TK5EX14HUBC106.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.80.61) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.176.0; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 19:17:00 -0800 Received: from TK5EX14MBXC139.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([169.254.7.69]) by TK5EX14HUBC106.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.80.61]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.002; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 19:17:00 -0800 From: Shawn Steele To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= Thread-Topic: [EAI] FYI: I-D Action:draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00.txt Thread-Index: AcvelRsOpz+ha3/STQCzQiwEjwAJUABRZA8AABAjiYA= Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 03:17:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: <4D798EDA.8090901@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <4D798EDA.8090901@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [157.54.51.75] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ima@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [EAI] FYI: I-D Action:draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 03:15:43 -0000 Yes, I think it'd be easier to spec it as IRIs. (Do the IRI/URI RFCs cover= converting from IRI to URI? In that case we don't have to cover that part= again). IMO anyone implementing draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00.txt will be able to hand= le IRIs. I'm sure there're a few edge cases tunneling through older system= s, but I think we should lean toward plain Unicode (IRIs). (And then they'= d be in the encoding of the doc/app, right? Since a mailto could be embedd= ed anywhere? The UTF-8 language is only necessary for the % encoding langu= age). Eg: if this were a .Net string, it'd be UTF-16, not UTF-8. - Shawn http://blogs.msdn.com/shawnste -----Original Message----- From: "Martin J. D=FCrst" [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 6:54 PM To: Shawn Steele Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] FYI: I-D Action:draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00.txt Hello Shawn, Thanks for your comments. On 2011/03/10 5:11, Shawn Steele wrote: > I don't like the MUST on % encoding for non-ASCII. Just to make sure, do you mean some of the MUSTs in point 4 and 5 in sectio= n 2 (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00#section-2), essentially of the form non-ASCII characters MUST first be encoded according to UTF-8 [STD63], and then each octet of the corresponding UTF-8 sequence MUST be percent-encoded to be represented as URI characters > In practice even current systems don't rely on that for mailto. That's fine. That just means that they don't use URIs, they use IRIs.=20 The document is defined in terms of URIs, where non-ASCII characters are fo= rbidden. In order to also work with IRIs, the above text is the necessary "= secret formula" or "magic keyword". > (eg: mailto: an EAI address will invoke Outlook on an IE machine today. = You're stuck after that, but mailto "works"). It's great to know that mailto: already works with IRIs! > I realize why the MUST seems useful, but, in practice, I don't see how it= helps at all. Do you think it would be easier to write the spec in terms of IRIs? > Unaware systems get gibberish either way, and it's trivial to allow=20 > EAI-aware systems to use UTF-8 natively, Yes, of course, but please remember that mailto: is used both for EAI-aware= and non-EAI-aware systems. > so the compatibility concerns seem like a red herring to me. > > (Let's not let this distract from the core docs though) Yes indeed. For general discussions about URIs vs. IRIs, please move them t= o the IRI WG (mailing list public-iri@w3.org). Regards, Martin. > -Shawn > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 18:12:45 +0900 > From: "Martin J. D?rst" > Subject: [EAI] FYI: I-D Action:draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00.txt > To: "ima@ietf.org" > Message-ID:<4D77448D.4000205@it.aoyama.ac.jp> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"; Format=3D"flowed" > > This draft may be of interest to some WG participants, as it is in the lo= ng-term part of the charter. I have asked the Co-Chairs to put it on the ag= enda of the WG meeting in Prague if they feel there may be enough time and = energy left. > > I have tried to address earlier comments (in particular also from John > K.) regarding hidden encoding/decoding complexity by explicitly renaming = ABNF rules. As an example, the addr-spec rule has been renamed to addr-spec= -enc, to make clear that while it is *almost* the same as addr-spec in the = main email-related RFCs, it's *not* the same. > > Regards, Martin. > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: I-D Action:draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00.txt > Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 00:00:01 -0800 > From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct= ories. > > Title : The 'mailto' URI/IRI Scheme > Author(s) : M. Duerst, et al. > Filename : draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00.txt > Pages : 20 > Date : 2011-03-06 > > This document defines the format of Uniform Resource Identifiers > (URIs) and Internationalized Resource Identfiers (IRIs) to identify resou= rces that are reached using Internet mail. It adds the possibility to use = Email Address Internationalization (EAI) email addresses (RFC4952bis) to th= e previous syntax of 'mailto' URIs (RFC 6068). > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00.txt > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implemen= tation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. > > _______________________________________________ > IMA mailing list > IMA@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima > > -- #-# Martin J. D=FCrst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From dhc2@dcrocker.net Fri Mar 11 08:53:59 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 693B43A6A15 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 08:53:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BTqH5Pc4mq8O for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 08:53:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from sbh17.songbird.com (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 800453A68A6 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 08:53:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [130.129.28.245] ([130.129.28.245]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id p2BGtAtl030618 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 11 Mar 2011 08:55:16 -0800 Message-ID: <4D7A53E6.8070305@dcrocker.net> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 08:55:02 -0800 From: Dave CROCKER Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.15) Gecko/20110303 Thunderbird/3.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ned+ima@mrochek.com References: <20110308011256.87690.qmail@joyce.lan> <0F7249F28559FCBABB711C29@PST.JCK.COM> <4D767047.8040608@dcrocker.net> <01NYQZ1BG2LK007FL5@mauve.mrochek.com> In-Reply-To: <01NYQZ1BG2LK007FL5@mauve.mrochek.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Fri, 11 Mar 2011 08:55:16 -0800 (PST) Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] I-D Action: draft-ietf-eai-rfc5336bis-08.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 16:53:59 -0000 On 3/10/2011 12:41 PM, ned+ima@mrochek.com wrote: > * There have been several attempts to do this sort of thing, but the one that > really stands out is X.400. The original X.400 specification actually went so > far as to define all the media types you were supposed to use, even including > what was effectively a simple word processing format. The only escape hatch was > a typeless unlabelled octet stream object. And of all the mistakes that X.400 > made, this was the one that topped the list of things that people immediately > and actively tried to fix. Keep in mind that this was an email protocol without > a proper way to represent user *addreses*, and yet the pressure to deal with > the addressing problem was less than there was to be able to send arbitrary > typed attachments. Indeed the difference in design philosophy between Internet Mail and X.400 demonstrate this issue repeatedly: Constrain as little as you possibly can. Besides trying to define all the legal content types, they insisted that all the components of an address were globally controlled. The fact that Internet Mail constrained only the hostname globally left local sites able to explore and exploit all sorts of enhancements that otherwise would not have been possible. CSNet and Usenet depended on this, as does your own address for this message... d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From klensin@jck.com Sun Mar 13 09:42:18 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9986B3A69FA for ; Sun, 13 Mar 2011 09:42:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.642 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.642 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.043, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G5UTI-z3ecXX for ; Sun, 13 Mar 2011 09:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C3933A69DB for ; Sun, 13 Mar 2011 09:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1PyoOH-0007rb-VJ; Sun, 13 Mar 2011 12:43:38 -0400 X-Vipre-Scanned: 01C8AD3D0021F401C8AE8A-TDI Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 12:43:36 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: John R Levine Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <4D767047.8040608@dcrocker.net> <20110309151853.37182.qmail@joyce.lan> <01NYQZFJ8RQI007FL5@mauve.mrochek.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] message/global, was I-D Action X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:42:18 -0000 --On Thursday, March 10, 2011 16:27 -0500 John R Levine wrote: > Do we agree that the 5336bis rule about needing the EAI flag > for mail that contains message/global is wrong? That seems > the natural result here. Hi. I've been saying fairly little about this because I'm pretty agnostic about the result, i.e., precisely because I recognize the tradeoffs that you, Ned, and others have pointed out, anything that that WG concludes is right after due consideration is fine with me. Getting rid of the nested encoding rule entirely would also be fine with me. That option was not considered by the WG in the initial round because it (or any other change to the fundamentals of the MIME definition) was believed (by the previous co-chairs) to be out of scope/ charter. I am concerned that we not accidentally compromise or alter/update two provisions of 5321/5322 that really aren't part of the nested encoding restriction: (1) There is an absolute prohibition in SMTP against the message payload (Headers and body) containing anything but ASCII characters (in RFC 5321, see the first paragraph of Section 4.1.1.4) unless extensions are present. Pre-EAI, there is no extension that permits headers in anything but ASCII. (2) 5322 repeats the ASCII restriction (Section 2.2 and syntax) as does the RFC2045 version of the MIME spec. If one is going to have raw (not ACE, encoded-word, or, in the MIME case, Hex-encoded) non-ASCII content in headers, then it appears to me that there are only two choices: -- enable non-ASCII encodings (presumably UTF-8 and UTF-8 only, although that is, in principle, a separate issue) through an SMTP extension or -- adopt a just-send-8 philosophy and hope the content goes through without being trashed, that parsers accept the 8-bit data as reasonable and treat it and UTF-8 and that things work out more generally. I'm too paranoid, and have seen too much damage, to believe that the latter is a good idea. But maybe that is just me. Now, to reprise pieces of comments made by others, the "cause" for message/global was the following scenario: (i) User/MUA receives a message over a UTF8SMTPbis path that contains addresses in some header fields that require EAI. (EAI use of UTF-8 in other fields give much the same result but, because the possibility of converting many of them to encoded-words complicates the example, let's stick to addresses). (ii) User decides to forward the message to someone else, encapsulating it via message/rfc822. (iii) The _message header_ of the message to be encapsulated is now incompatible with the MIME spec generally, and the message/rfc822 spec in particular, because it contains non-ASCII characters. Remember that the main thing that differentiates message/rfc822 from multipart/mixed is that the former is designed to encapsulate RFC822/IMF messages, header fields and all, not just blobs of some arbitrary content-type. The user is now stuck and stuck whether there is a requirement for UTF8SMTPbis flags and transport or not. And, so far, this has nothing to do with the content of any body parts (we know what to do about those) or the nested encoding rule. And, as far as I know, there are only the following ways to allow encapsulation of headers that contain those non-ASCII addresses: (a) Modify the spec for message/rfc822 so that it permits non-ASCII data (or, if one prefers to think of it that way, 8bit data) in the headers of the message(s) being encapsulated. Whether that is wise or feasible is a separate question, but it would certainly be a modification of the existing spec. (b) Create a new encapsulation content-type, presumably another subtype of message/ that allows for 8bit material in the headers of encapsulated messages. Independent of either the nested encoding rule or anything having to do with UTF8SMTPbis flagging, that is what message/global was intended to accomplish. (c) Create a new encapsulation content-type, one that might or might not be a subtype of message/ (separate decision, but multipart/ might work equally well and there are other variations on this theme) that views the encapsulated messages --including their headers-- as just a slightly-special type of data blob that treats message headers as just variations on text/plain that could be Base64-encoded if needed. The problem with (a) and (b) is that we still have that "transport ASCII-only" restriction in 5321 and the "headers in ASCII" restriction of 5322/MIME. If things have to be transported over the default/ assumed 7bit path, then we need a way to encapsulate and encode the headers themselves. That either pushes us toward (c) or requires a model that I don't think we have yet. Again, I'm not advocating for anything; I'm just trying to put the constraints that have nothing to do with nested encodings into context in the hope of advancing the discussion. john From klensin@jck.com Sun Mar 13 09:50:48 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC2A93A69FA for ; Sun, 13 Mar 2011 09:50:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.641 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.641 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.042, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wgzmO45ck3Gf for ; Sun, 13 Mar 2011 09:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F14DC3A69DB for ; Sun, 13 Mar 2011 09:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1PyoWW-0008Ed-Ba for ima@ietf.org; Sun, 13 Mar 2011 12:52:09 -0400 X-Vipre-Scanned: 01D077420021F401D0788F-TDI Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 12:52:07 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: ima@ietf.org Message-ID: <3AAAAF0272386FB4984C0F7D@[192.168.1.128]> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="==========DA81EA2CC789EEF68010==========" Subject: [EAI] FWD: I-D Action:draft-hoffman-rfc3536bis-01.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:50:49 -0000 --==========DA81EA2CC789EEF68010========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi. The relatively new I-D, draft-hoffman-rfc3536bis, represents an effort, discussed on this list some time ago, to better establish i18n terminology that can be used across the IETF. It is not a work item for the EAI WG and I hope does not become one, but people involved in the EAI work may find it interesting to examine (and we would, of course, appreciate any comments). Please do not reply to this message on the EAI list; comments should be directed to the apps-discuss one as indicated in the document. thanks, john --==========DA81EA2CC789EEF68010========== Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="I-D Action:draft-hoffman-rfc3536bis-01.txt" Return-path: Envelope-to: klensin+ietf@jck.com Delivery-date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 00:46:43 -0500 Received: from [64.170.98.32] (helo=mail.ietf.org) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1PyHf1-0008oT-1M for klensin+ietf@jck.com; Sat, 12 Mar 2011 00:46:43 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99CA23A6A96; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 21:45:11 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: i-d-announce@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: i-d-announce@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CF0A3A69D1 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 21:45:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.565 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.565 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.034, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qDV0OqH8qvGD for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 21:45:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F27743A6986 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2011 21:45:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action:draft-hoffman-rfc3536bis-01.txt X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 3.12 Message-ID: <20110312054501.19955.13536.idtracker@localhost> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 21:45:01 -0800 X-BeenThere: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org List-Id: Internet Draft Announcements only List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Terminology Used in Internationalization in the IETF Author(s) : P. Hoffman, J. Klensin Filename : draft-hoffman-rfc3536bis-01.txt Pages : 43 Date : 2011-03-11 This document provides a glossary of terms used in the IETF when discussing internationalization. The purpose is to help frame discussions of internationalization in the various areas of the IETF and to help introduce the main concepts to IETF participants. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-hoffman-rfc3536bis-01.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-hoffman-rfc3536bis-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2011-03-11213853.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt --NextPart-- --==========DA81EA2CC789EEF68010==========-- From chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Mon Mar 14 05:24:29 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA8843A6ABD for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 05:24:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.428 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.829, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KlDVn0RpXVCB for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 05:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outbound-queue-2.mail.thdo.gradwell.net (outbound-queue-2.mail.thdo.gradwell.net [212.11.70.35]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BA003A69C1 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 05:24:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outbound-edge-2.mail.thdo.gradwell.net (bonnie.gradwell.net [212.11.70.2]) by outbound-queue-2.mail.thdo.gradwell.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 984F822044 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 12:25:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from port-89.xxx.th.newnet.co.uk (HELO clerew.man.ac.uk) (80.175.135.89) (smtp-auth username postmaster%pop3.clerew.man.ac.uk, mechanism cram-md5) by outbound-edge-2.mail.thdo.gradwell.net (qpsmtpd/0.83) with (DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted) ESMTPSA; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 12:25:49 +0000 Received: from clerew.man.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id p2ECPlU4028475 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 12:25:49 GMT Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 12:25:47 -0000 To: IMA From: "Charles Lindsey" Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; delsp=yes; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4D767047.8040608@dcrocker.net> <20110309151853.37182.qmail@joyce.lan> <01NYQZFJ8RQI007FL5@mauve.mrochek.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera Mail/9.25 (SunOS) X-Gradwell-MongoId: 4d7e094d.ea9d-6f52-2 X-Gradwell-Auth-Method: mailbox X-Gradwell-Auth-Credentials: postmaster@pop3.clerew.man.ac.uk Subject: Re: [EAI] message/global, was I-D Action X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 12:24:30 -0000 On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:43:36 -0000, John C Klensin wrote: > (2) 5322 repeats the ASCII restriction (Section 2.2 and syntax) > as does the RFC2045 version of the MIME spec. If one is going > to have raw (not ACE, encoded-word, or, in the MIME case, > Hex-encoded) non-ASCII content in headers, then it appears to me > that there are only two choices: > > -- enable non-ASCII encodings (presumably UTF-8 and > UTF-8 only, although that is, in principle, a separate > issue) through an SMTP extension or > > -- adopt a just-send-8 philosophy and hope the content > goes through without being trashed, that parsers accept > the 8-bit data as reasonable and treat it and UTF-8 and > that things work out more generally. > > I'm too paranoid, and have seen too much damage, to believe that > the latter is a good idea. But maybe that is just me. Broadly I agree with that, but it is arguable that "just sending-8" in the body may well work in practice. Servers are in general notorious for doing nasty/stupid things to headers, but hardly ever do anything to bodies beyond perhaps changing CTEs. I believe all widely used servers are now in practice 8-bit clean in bodies. So it may be a reasonable risk to do things slightly in violation of the MIME standards, as regards headers contained within multiparts within bodies, using just an 8BITMIME restriction rather than the more difficult UTF8SMTPbis restriction. Or you could say that if Ned thinks some small violation of MIME should be permitted, then we should go ahead and do it. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131     Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk      Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9      Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From klensin@jck.com Mon Mar 14 06:11:51 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C89BD3A6D16 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 06:11:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.641 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.641 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.042, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vf5tj60FpehB for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 06:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 847C23A6961 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 06:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Pz7a8-00081n-2Y; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 09:13:08 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 09:13:07 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Charles Lindsey , IMA Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <4D767047.8040608@dcrocker.net> <20110309151853.37182.qmail@joyce.lan> <01NYQZFJ8RQI007FL5@mauve.mrochek.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: [EAI] message/global, was I-D Action X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 13:11:51 -0000 Charles, Again, I don't necessarily disagree with this... just trying to make sure that I've given a correct statement of the situation and options (in case we are asked later) and that everyone understands those options and their implications. On the other hand, if we believe it is now safe to send 8bit message bodies without any SMTP extensions, it may be a little ironic that we just published RFC 6152, moving 8BITMIME and its restrictions to Full Standard. It does suggest a possibly-odd intermediate position that the WG might consider: Case 1 Main message headers contain 8bit material: UTF8SMTPbis and 8BITMIME required regardless of the contents of any MIME headers. Case 2: Main message headers are entirely ASCII, but some MIME headers contain 8bit material: UTF8SMTPbis possibly preferred, but not required (i.e., possibly SHOULD, perhaps MAY); 8BITMIME required. Case 3: Neither main message headers nor MIME headers contain 8bit material: Not Our Problem. Put differently, rather than implicitly changing the definition of message/rfc822 to permit non-ASCII material in embedded headers, we implicitly change the definition of 8BITMIME to permit non-ASCII in MIME headers that are not the main message headers. Its advantage is that it takes a half-step beyond your analysis by noticing that, if the server asserts 8BITMIME is available and the client responds by specifying BODY=8BITBIME, we pretty much know that both are sufficiently 8bit-capable that trashing or rejecting an 8bit body part header would require extra effort and represent either really compulsive standards-enforcement or generally perverse behavior. Note that characterization does not have any special interaction with message/global, message/rfc822, etc. It would apply equally well to, e.g., multipart/mixed and some MIME body part header with a non-ASCII content-disposition field. And it still doesn't address the problem of forwarding an encapsulated message that contains non-ASCII headers to a system with no apparent 8bit capability at all (i.e., not even 8BITMIME is advertised by the server). Anyone want to advocate that one as an intermediary position? john --On Monday, March 14, 2011 12:25 +0000 Charles Lindsey wrote: >> (2) 5322 repeats the ASCII restriction (Section 2.2 and >> syntax) as does the RFC2045 version of the MIME spec. If >> one is going to have raw (not ACE, encoded-word, or, in the >... >> I'm too paranoid, and have seen too much damage, to believe >> that the latter is a good idea. But maybe that is just me. > Broadly I agree with that, but it is arguable that "just > sending-8" in the body may well work in practice. Servers are > in general notorious for doing nasty/stupid things to headers, > but hardly ever do anything to bodies beyond perhaps changing > CTEs. I believe all widely used servers are now in practice > 8-bit clean in bodies. > > So it may be a reasonable risk to do things slightly in > violation of the MIME standards, as regards headers contained > within multiparts within bodies, using just an 8BITMIME > restriction rather than the more difficult UTF8SMTPbis > restriction. > > Or you could say that if Ned thinks some small violation of > MIME should be permitted, then we should go ahead and do it. From tony@att.com Mon Mar 14 08:14:50 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 426E73A6D09 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 08:14:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.101, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NY2kmvByz54W for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 08:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail119.messagelabs.com (mail119.messagelabs.com [216.82.241.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 515963A69AA for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 08:14:49 -0700 (PDT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: tony@att.com X-Msg-Ref: server-13.tower-119.messagelabs.com!1300115772!8776997!1 X-StarScan-Version: 6.2.9; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [144.160.20.145] Received: (qmail 21248 invoked from network); 14 Mar 2011 15:16:12 -0000 Received: from sbcsmtp6.sbc.com (HELO mlpd192.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com) (144.160.20.145) by server-13.tower-119.messagelabs.com with DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 14 Mar 2011 15:16:12 -0000 Received: from enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mlpd192.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p2EFGZs0021099 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 11:16:35 -0400 Received: from alpd052.aldc.att.com (alpd052.aldc.att.com [130.8.42.31]) by mlpd192.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p2EFGUxR020971 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 11:16:30 -0400 Received: from aldc.att.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by alpd052.aldc.att.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p2EFG6Vr014078 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 11:16:06 -0400 Received: from mailgw1.maillennium.att.com (dns.maillennium.att.com [135.25.114.99]) by alpd052.aldc.att.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p2EFG1mf013857 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 11:16:01 -0400 Received: from [135.70.232.220] (vpn-135-70-232-220.vpn.east.att.com[135.70.232.220]) by maillennium.att.com (mailgw1) with ESMTP id <20110314151601gw100e4l1ie> (Authid: tony); Mon, 14 Mar 2011 15:16:01 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [135.70.232.220] Message-ID: <4D7E3130.80108@att.com> Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 11:16:00 -0400 From: Tony Hansen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.2.15) Gecko/20110303 Thunderbird/3.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ima@ietf.org References: <4D767047.8040608@dcrocker.net> <20110309151853.37182.qmail@joyce.lan> <01NYQZFJ8RQI007FL5@mauve.mrochek.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [EAI] message/global, was I-D Action X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 15:14:50 -0000 On 3/13/2011 12:43 PM, John C Klensin wrote: > ... > (2) 5322 repeats the ASCII restriction (Section 2.2 and syntax) > as does the RFC2045 version of the MIME spec. If one is going > to have raw (not ACE, encoded-word, or, in the MIME case, > Hex-encoded) non-ASCII content in headers, then it appears to me > that there are only two choices: > > -- enable non-ASCII encodings (presumably UTF-8 and > UTF-8 only, although that is, in principle, a separate > issue) through an SMTP extension or > > -- adopt a just-send-8 philosophy and hope the content > goes through without being trashed, that parsers accept > the 8-bit data as reasonable and treat it and UTF-8 and > that things work out more generally. > > I'm too paranoid, and have seen too much damage, to believe that > the latter is a good idea. But maybe that is just me. You are not alone. I also feel that the latter is not a good idea. Tony Hansen tony@att.com From johnl@iecc.com Mon Mar 14 08:24:55 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C2A63A69AA for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 08:24:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.202, BAYES_00=-2.599, HABEAS_ACCREDITED_SOI=-4.3, RCVD_IN_BSP_TRUSTED=-4.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VUBkmn6L3EXE for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 08:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [64.57.183.53]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB5463A6B32 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2011 08:24:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 17358 invoked from network); 14 Mar 2011 15:26:14 -0000 Received: from mail1.iecc.com (64.57.183.56) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 14 Mar 2011 15:26:14 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:cc:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:vbr-info; s=6329.4d7e3396.k1103; i=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=XgKuwYd7MWjHmcj/AYEV3ftEfLbCaDEU0RCJGrOQd+s=; b=dNI0p8iczP1RSN2H7gy4QOE7ovBU/ZZKVfEcsp1BTUUN6uDffONkSK5xON0XwYeQEOU9T7Dhvc5Ht4uCXGyb1JiagGUj/Kf3wNihPUiin4KcJ4T38VfAPIyIddvahnrTcHe7/ArOCuN4KA5qGfj37JWAp5/ZahRSOb0IxcgvpHw= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:cc:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:vbr-info; s=6329.4d7e3396.k1103; olt=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=XgKuwYd7MWjHmcj/AYEV3ftEfLbCaDEU0RCJGrOQd+s=; b=Vp51nkPhYYA3tHSyrqRmncht7fYMXkFjhXCqCb5s1SSih3idq/flHhQzt9kBr1HZqI3m+8ihejn+a52qAhdWTJoAQ+dzmYnuYDCn5b/URb2n7uk9eEBkvdmCbYQ117n2i61Xrmx1I1aady1rav3W1Og5fJy9Yzc/A/hSLJdXs7M= VBR-Info: md=iecc.com; mc=all; mv=dwl.spamhaus.org Date: 14 Mar 2011 15:26:14 -0000 Message-ID: <20110314152614.25384.qmail@joyce.lan> From: John Levine To: ima@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [EAI] message/global, was I-D Action X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 15:24:55 -0000 > Case 1 Main message headers contain 8bit material: > UTF8SMTPbis and 8BITMIME required regardless of the > contents of any MIME headers. > > Case 2: Main message headers are entirely ASCII, but some > MIME headers contain 8bit material: UTF8SMTPbis possibly > preferred, but not required (i.e., possibly SHOULD, > perhaps MAY); 8BITMIME required. > > Case 3: Neither main message headers nor MIME headers > contain 8bit material: Not Our Problem. >Anyone want to advocate that one as an intermediary position? Sounds right to me, ensures that the server can accept the bits that the client is sending. A sufficiently broken implementation could still lose the message at a later gateway, but there's nothing we can do about that. R's, John From Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Tue Mar 15 13:00:02 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E4233A6B49; Tue, 15 Mar 2011 13:00:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.583 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.583 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OqdAAzvpkP0l; Tue, 15 Mar 2011 13:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CF4F3A6E9B; Tue, 15 Mar 2011 13:00:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 3.12 Message-ID: <20110315200001.23062.43368.idtracker@localhost> Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 13:00:01 -0700 Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: [EAI] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-eai-rfc5335bis-10.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 20:00:02 -0000 --NextPart A new Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Email Address Internationalization Working Group of the IETF. Title : Internationalized Email Headers Author(s) : . Yang, et al Filename : draft-ietf-eai-rfc5335bis-10.txt Pages : 16 Date : 2011-03-15 Internet mail was originally limited to 7-bit ASCII. Recent enhancements support Unicode's UTF-8 encoding in portions of a message. Full internationalization of electronic mail requires additional enhancement, including support for UTF-8 in user-oriented header fields, such as in the To, From, and Subject fields. This document specifies an enhancement to Internet mail that permits native UTF-8 support in the header and body of a message. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eai-rfc5335bis-10.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-eai-rfc5335bis-10.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2011-03-15124853.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- From jyee@afilias.info Thu Mar 17 07:57:10 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7186B3A69A8 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 07:57:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.265 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.265 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K7HnkoLQdsaW for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 07:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outbound.afilias.info (outbound.afilias.info [69.46.124.26]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 957BD3A69A2 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 07:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ms5.yyz2.afilias-ops.info ([10.50.129.111] helo=smtp.afilias.info) by outbound.afilias.info with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Q0Eer-0006qZ-7H for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:58:37 +0000 Received: from mail-yw0-f50.google.com ([209.85.213.50]) by smtp.afilias.info with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q0Eer-0006JM-3S for ima@ietf.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:58:37 +0000 Received: by ywa8 with SMTP id 8so1109321ywa.9 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 07:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.72.20 with SMTP id z20mr1507986agk.107.1300373916532; Thu, 17 Mar 2011 07:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jyee-lt.tor.afilias-int.info (tor-gateway.afilias.info [199.15.87.4]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w6sm2744395anf.6.2011.03.17.07.58.34 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 17 Mar 2011 07:58:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Yee Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 10:58:32 -0400 To: IMA WG Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) Subject: [EAI] Initial Agenda for IETF80 X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:57:10 -0000 Hi all, The initial agenda for IETF80 is available http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/80/agenda/eai.txt Agenda content is also available below Please let John and I know if anyone want some of agenda time for = discussion. Regards Joseph ------------------------------------ IETF-80 EAI Agenda Email Address Internationalization (EAI) Tuesday, March 29, 2011 09:00 - 11:30 (Eastern European Time) Chairs John Klensin Joseph Yee Agenda 1. Scribe, Blue Sheet, Agenda Bashing =20 2. Overall Status Update 3. Review of base documents, relationships, brief report on = consensus conclusion, and discussion of how the WG is going to assure = consistency of content and definition. 4. Review of issues with each base document, focusing on outstanding = issues. 4a. Review of SMTP-bis (draft-ietf-eai-rfc5336bis-08) =09 4b. Review of Header-bis (draft-ieft-eai-rfc5335bis-10) =09 4c. Review of DSN-bis (draft-ietf-eai-rfc5337bis-01) 5. POP, IMAP, Downgrade display draft-ietf-eai-rfc5721bis-00 draft-ietf-eai-5378bis-00 draft-ietf-eai-popimap-downgrade 6. Discussion on moving advice docs 7. Status update of MailTo (submitted by Martin Durest) - = draft-duerst-eai-mailto-00 8. Status update of PKIX-EAI - draft-ietf-pkix-eai-addresses-00 9. Any Other Business 10. Wrap up and Adjourn= From edainow@ca.afilias.info Fri Mar 25 11:20:37 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD4AF28C0DD for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 11:20:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.185 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.185 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.185] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m4GfgIMrIFfJ for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 11:20:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tor-gateway.afilias.info (tor-gateway.afilias.info [199.15.87.4]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4DDD28C0FD for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 11:20:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from edainow-lt.tor.afilias-int.info ([10.10.68.31]) by tor-gateway.afilias.info with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Q3BeF-00063p-5u for ima@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 14:22:11 -0400 Message-ID: <4D8CDD5E.2060103@ca.afilias.info> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 14:22:22 -0400 From: Ernie Dainow User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.15) Gecko/20110303 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: EAI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [EAI] rfc5335bis-10 inconsistent titles X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 18:20:37 -0000 Title: Internationalized Email Headers Page headings: I18N Email Headers The Page headings are inconsistent with the document title, and the term I18N is not defined anywhere. This should just be changed to match the title. -Ernie From edainow@afilias.info Fri Mar 25 11:50:12 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ACF93A63D2 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 11:50:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.265 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.265 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u+JOsvzFhgx8 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 11:50:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outbound.afilias.info (outbound.afilias.info [69.46.124.26]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D1123A6825 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 11:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ms6.yyz2.afilias-ops.info ([10.50.129.112] helo=smtp.afilias.info) by outbound.afilias.info with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Q3C6o-0002dS-6p for ima@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 18:51:42 +0000 Received: from mail-yi0-f50.google.com ([209.85.218.50]) by smtp.afilias.info with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q3C6n-0005Ea-9Q for ima@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 18:51:42 +0000 Received: by yie30 with SMTP id 30so543197yie.9 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 11:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.203.40 with SMTP id f40mr1187904agq.185.1301079101394; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 11:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.10.68.31] (tor-gateway.afilias.info [199.15.87.4]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c39sm1287876anc.33.2011.03.25.11.51.40 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 25 Mar 2011 11:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4D8CE445.8080209@afilias.info> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 14:51:49 -0400 From: Ernie Dainow User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.15) Gecko/20110303 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: EAI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [EAI] rfc5336bis-08 inconsistent titles X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 18:51:56 -0000 There are inconsistent titles in various places. Title: SMTP Extension for Internationalized Email Address Page headings: EAI SMTP Extension Section 3.1 The name of the SMTP service extension is "Email Address Internationalization". While the name of the working group is "Email Address Internationalization", in fact the scope of the work includes supporting UTF8 in more than just email addresses. For consistency and to more completely reflect this standard, the above should be changed to: Title: SMTP Extensions for Internationalized Email Page headings: SMTP Extensions for Internationalized Email Section 3.1 The name of the SMTP service extension is "Internationalized Email". -Ernie From klensin@jck.com Fri Mar 25 12:19:32 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD2F03A67E6 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 12:19:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.629 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.629 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.030, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iMchxgHM6MBe for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 12:19:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B20AA3A682D for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 12:19:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Q3CZG-0004uw-Ow; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 15:21:06 -0400 Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 15:21:06 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Ernie Dainow , EAI Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4D8CE445.8080209@afilias.info> References: <4D8CE445.8080209@afilias.info> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: [EAI] rfc5336bis-08 inconsistent titles X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 19:19:32 -0000 --On Friday, March 25, 2011 14:51 -0400 Ernie Dainow wrote: > There are inconsistent titles in various places. > > Title: SMTP Extension for Internationalized Email > Address > Page headings: EAI SMTP Extension > Section 3.1 The name of the SMTP service extension is > "Email Address Internationalization". > > While the name of the working group is "Email Address > Internationalization", in fact the scope of the work includes > supporting UTF8 in more than just email addresses. For > consistency and to more completely reflect this standard, the > above should be changed to: > > Title: SMTP Extensions for Internationalized Email > Page headings: SMTP Extensions for Internationalized Email > Section 3.1 The name of the SMTP service extension is > "Internationalized Email". Ernie, With co-chair hat on... I look forward to the day that these issues will become the most serious facing us. Wrt the Page Heading part, the RFC Editor prefers short strings and requires that they not be very long. So I think we are stuck with page headings that are shorter than the title. And it is much better than we specify those than leaving to the RFC Editor's imagination and a fight at AUTH48. Something like "SMTP I18N Extensions" would probably work, but that is more an indication about lengths and common practice than a proposal. The question of whether 5336bis is about addresses or about support for UTF-8 more generally has been discussed by the WG. I'm going to continue in the policy of letting Joseph decide when consensus statements are needed and make them when required. But I note we've had a lot of confusion on all sides of the argument: 5336/ 5336bis are about more than addresses, but many of the suggestions for saying that have triggered discussion about content, Content-Types, and Content-transfer-encodings that neither 5336bis nor 5335bis address. Not easy to get exactly right without writing paragraphs, and paragraphs clearly don't fit in titles. Co-chair hat off, personal preference only... I would prefer to get rid of "EAI" in all document titles and anything else normative. It won't convey much to anyone in the future and may cause confusion. So, in that regard at least, I prefer your titles to the existing one. john From klensin@jck.com Fri Mar 25 12:23:20 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D60C3A6838 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 12:23:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.629 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.629 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.030, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5XZ+tgUWzhZJ for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 12:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F033A6835 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 12:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Q3Ccw-0004z3-7I; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 15:24:54 -0400 Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 15:24:53 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Ernie Dainow , EAI Message-ID: <256C5D5349095223490BE555@PST.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: <4D8CDD5E.2060103@ca.afilias.info> References: <4D8CDD5E.2060103@ca.afilias.info> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: [EAI] rfc5335bis-10 inconsistent titles X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 19:23:20 -0000 --On Friday, March 25, 2011 14:22 -0400 Ernie Dainow wrote: > Title: Internationalized Email Headers > Page headings: I18N Email Headers > > The Page headings are inconsistent with the document title, > and the term I18N is not defined anywhere. This should just be > changed to match the title. But, if one is going to be picky about what 5336bis enables or defines, 5335bis adds a content-type and special treatment for it, so it isn't just about headers either. For "i18n", see RFC 3536 and draft-hoffman-rfc3536bis (currently at -01). Comments welcome but, if the editors think it is useful to use "i18n" in these documents, a normative reference to that document might be preferable to adding either clutter or undefined terms to these documents. john From jyee@afilias.info Fri Mar 25 15:56:10 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 791E528C0ED for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 15:56:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.646 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.646 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iJaIhr-g4u6r for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 15:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outbound.afilias.info (outbound.afilias.info [69.46.124.26]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 576BD28C0E3 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 15:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ms6.yyz2.afilias-ops.info ([10.50.129.112] helo=smtp.afilias.info) by outbound.afilias.info with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Q3Fwu-0001c0-5F for ima@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 22:57:44 +0000 Received: from mail-iy0-f178.google.com ([209.85.210.178]) by smtp.afilias.info with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q3Fwu-0003ko-80 for ima@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 22:57:44 +0000 Received: by iyi12 with SMTP id 12so1535970iyi.9 for ; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 15:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.72.195 with SMTP id p3mr2259507icj.224.1301093864044; Fri, 25 Mar 2011 15:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.20.10.2] ([74.198.87.11]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id wo11sm885023icb.20.2011.03.25.15.57.41 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 25 Mar 2011 15:57:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Yee Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 18:57:34 -0400 To: IMA WG Message-Id: <247AA903-EF0B-492F-A595-D3B9962854D1@afilias.info> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) Subject: [EAI] Updated Agenda and Slides for IETF 80 EAI X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 22:56:10 -0000 All, Updated agenda and slides are available for the upcoming meeting. https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/80/materials.html Regards Joseph From Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com Mon Mar 28 11:58:55 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D1AA3A691D for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 11:58:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.535 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.535 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.064, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wlf3vzg5uSOu for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 11:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailc.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B07593A67ED for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 11:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5EX14HUBC103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.86.9) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.176.0; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:00:32 -0700 Received: from TK5EX14MBXC139.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([169.254.7.69]) by TK5EX14HUBC103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.86.9]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.002; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:00:32 -0700 From: Shawn Steele To: "ima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Time of Meeting Thread-Index: Acvtei1fFXQlBVIbRtKCRnYSgGM8ug== Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 19:00:31 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [157.54.51.76] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [EAI] Time of Meeting X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 18:58:55 -0000 SWYgSSBkaWQgdGhlIG1hdGggcmlnaHQsIHRoZSBFQUkgbXRnIGlzIG1pZG5pZ2h0IGluIFBTVCAo V2FzaGluZ3RvbiAmIENhbGlmb3JuaWEpPw0KDQotIFNoYXduDQoNCu+jou+jkO+jp++jmyDvo6Lv o6Pvo5fvo5Tvo5kNCmh0dHA6Ly9ibG9ncy5tc2RuLmNvbS9zaGF3bnN0ZSANCg0K From johnl@iecc.com Mon Mar 28 12:43:28 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE0103A6879 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:43:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -111.008 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-111.008 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.191, BAYES_00=-2.599, HABEAS_ACCREDITED_SOI=-4.3, RCVD_IN_BSP_TRUSTED=-4.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e5mSdjCLjml2 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [64.57.183.53]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B3303A686E for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 20184 invoked from network); 28 Mar 2011 19:45:04 -0000 Received: from mail1.iecc.com (64.57.183.56) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 28 Mar 2011 19:45:04 -0000 Date: 28 Mar 2011 19:44:42 -0000 Message-ID: <20110328194442.76181.qmail@joyce.lan> From: "John Levine" To: ima@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Cc: Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com Subject: Re: [EAI] Time of Meeting X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 19:43:29 -0000 > If I did the math right, the EAI mtg is midnight in PST (Washington > & California)? Count your blessings. That's 3 AM here in New York. R's, John From chris@lascribe.net Mon Mar 28 12:46:17 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F0B03A68FE for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:46:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zi9gW-2gbJYk for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:46:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thrace.asmallorange.com (thrace.asmallorange.com [64.22.96.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECB4E3A68FA for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 66-230-81-171-rb1.fai.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net ([66.230.81.171]:55973 helo=[192.168.1.52]) by thrace.asmallorange.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Q4IPs-0001sv-3V for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 15:47:56 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) From: Chris Waigl In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 11:47:49 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: ima@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - thrace.asmallorange.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - lascribe.net Subject: Re: [EAI] Time of Meeting X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 19:46:17 -0000 On 28 Mar 2011, at 11:00, Shawn Steele wrote: > If I did the math right, the EAI mtg is midnight in PST (Washington & = California)? Looks right to me. I'm in Alaska and have put a mental alarm clock for = 11pm. Chris Waigl lurker= From klensin@jck.com Mon Mar 28 13:30:56 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A5703A693D for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:30:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.625 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.625 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.026, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EcmB2OcU+yxG for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 077203A68C2 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Q4J72-000PUJ-5D; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:32:32 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:32:31 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Chris Waigl , ima@ietf.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: [EAI] Time of Meeting X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 20:30:56 -0000 --On Monday, March 28, 2011 11:47 -0800 Chris Waigl wrote: > > On 28 Mar 2011, at 11:00, Shawn Steele wrote: > >> If I did the math right, the EAI mtg is midnight in PST >> (Washington & California)? > > Looks right to me. I'm in Alaska and have put a mental alarm > clock for 11pm. Yes. 9AM Prague, 3AM Boston (EDT), midnight PDT, 11PM Alaska. For other cities/ timezones, see http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=3&day=29&year=2011&hour=9&min=0&sec=0&p1=204 WebEx will be up and running so that you/we can see the slides. https://workgreen.webex.com/workgreen/j.php?ED=151759917&UID=483233937&RT=MiMxNDI= If you have not used WebEx before, I recommend trying to start it sometime before the meeting: it needs to download and install significant software and, if I recall, a browser plugin on your machine. That takes a while, may require restarting your browser, etc. The WebEx setup is strictly one-way and comes without audio so, unless you want to see the slides, you don't need it. Audio will be available from http://ietf80streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf801.m3u Assuming Joseph can find people to scribe and watch the Jabber room, it will be running at xmpp:eai@jabber.ietf.org?join Borrowing a clever idea from Monday morning's Applications Area meeting, if remote participants have comments that you would like someone to read at the microphone, please preface your remark(s) with "mic:" as an indication. I expect that I will have voice input to the meeting. If you are convinced that you need it, drop Joseph and myself a note and we will see what can be done... but don't count on it unless you are actually presenting. Warning to everyone, based on experience in a couple of WG meetings and the Plenary on Monday: the audio feed lags significantly behind the Jabber conference so, by the time you hear something on the audio and type a comment into Jabber, the WG meeting may have already moved on, microphone lines may have been closed, etc. Joseph will have to use his discretion as to whether reopening a topic is worth the trouble. See (or at least hear or see you typing) you Tuesday (or late Monday, depending on where you are). john Your friendly co-chair and fellow remote participant From Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com Mon Mar 28 13:38:19 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38BC03A6A74 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:38:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.543 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.543 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.056, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kJwB7k+V4LsO for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BE553A6902 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5EX14HUBC106.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.80.61) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.176.0; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:39:56 -0700 Received: from TK5EX14MBXC139.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([169.254.7.69]) by TK5EX14HUBC106.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.80.61]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.002; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:39:55 -0700 From: Shawn Steele To: John Levine , "ima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [EAI] Time of Meeting Thread-Index: Acvtei1fFXQlBVIbRtKCRnYSgGM8ugAQRPkAAAzHHPA= Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 20:39:53 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20110328194442.76181.qmail@joyce.lan> In-Reply-To: <20110328194442.76181.qmail@joyce.lan> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [157.54.51.75] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [EAI] Time of Meeting X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 20:38:19 -0000 SSBkaWRuJ3QgbWVhbiBpdCBhcyBhIGNvbXBsYWludC4gIEkgd2FzIGFjdHVhbGx5IHJlbGlldmVk LCBhcyBteSBpbml0aWFsIGVzdGltYXRlIHdhcyAxIDopDQoNCi0gU2hhd24NCg0KLS0tLS1Pcmln aW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IEpvaG4gTGV2aW5lIFttYWlsdG86am9obmxAdGF1Z2gu Y29tXSANClNlbnQ6IE1vbmRheSwgTWFyY2ggMjgsIDIwMTEgMTI6NDUgUE0NClRvOiBpbWFAaWV0 Zi5vcmcNCkNjOiBTaGF3biBTdGVlbGUNClN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbRUFJXSBUaW1lIG9mIE1lZXRp bmcNCg0KPiBJZiBJIGRpZCB0aGUgbWF0aCByaWdodCwgdGhlIEVBSSBtdGcgaXMgbWlkbmlnaHQg aW4gUFNUIChXYXNoaW5ndG9uICYgDQo+IENhbGlmb3JuaWEpPw0KDQpDb3VudCB5b3VyIGJsZXNz aW5ncy4gIFRoYXQncyAzIEFNIGhlcmUgaW4gTmV3IFlvcmsuDQoNClIncywNCkpvaG4NCg0K From klensin@jck.com Mon Mar 28 13:47:45 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07CED3A6A6F for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:47:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.624 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.624 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w5-8Uw91wvp3 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24AAE3A6902 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Q4JNH-000PlW-4t; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:49:19 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:49:18 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Shawn Steele , John Levine , ima@ietf.org Message-ID: <8DFF84BA1C5FA3DE5261FE15@PST.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: References: <20110328194442.76181.qmail@joyce.lan> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: [EAI] Time of Meeting X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 20:47:45 -0000 --On Monday, March 28, 2011 20:39 +0000 Shawn Steele wrote: > I didn't mean it as a complaint. I was actually relieved, as > my initial estimate was 1 :) If it makes any of you feel better, I start Tuesday with an IAB meeting at 07:30 Prague time and then run straight through the EAI meeting and a lunch. That is 01:30 through 07:00 local time, uninterrupted. john From ned+ima@mrochek.com Mon Mar 28 13:51:04 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C544328C119 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:51:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.455 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.455 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.144, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id opd6FekJxjpY for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com (mauve.mrochek.com [66.59.230.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E21728C107 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01NZG5XTGEYO00RKQI@mauve.mrochek.com> for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01NZF8VVG04W00H4Y3@mauve.mrochek.com> (original mail from NED@mauve.mrochek.com) for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:52:37 -0700 (PDT) From: ned+ima@mrochek.com Message-id: <01NZG5XSHR1000H4Y3@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:46:48 -0700 (PDT) In-reply-to: "Your message dated Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:32:31 -0400" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN References: To: John C Klensin DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mrochek.com; s=mauve; t=1301345401; bh=dLEUk1WIT3WHhQJm9SkMjIwispnbTw7jHigXPpuY+EI=; h=From:Cc:Message-id:Date:Subject:In-reply-to:MIME-version: Content-type:References:To; b=YTxR5u+BBgePYtL7rnSzVlSWoXje+4+D5nyt+fMSS14k+UcBuWQGRSelbL8JC/7Ba 0n6f34kvDekC87H3rgwr5m625a1KRYWDBnuRuYqd2XEYfwBbnJQ5M4JKvsOoO2xMND BHdnUe3sBnf6pOvxM2WVLn0Z/z2sAOwBm/BTdjAk= Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] Time of Meeting X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 20:51:04 -0000 > --On Monday, March 28, 2011 11:47 -0800 Chris Waigl > wrote: > > > > On 28 Mar 2011, at 11:00, Shawn Steele wrote: > > > >> If I did the math right, the EAI mtg is midnight in PST > >> (Washington & California)? > > > > Looks right to me. I'm in Alaska and have put a mental alarm > > clock for 11pm. > Yes. 9AM Prague, 3AM Boston (EDT), midnight PDT, 11PM Alaska. > For other cities/ timezones, see > http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=3&day=29&year=2011&hour=9&min=0&sec=0&p1=204 > WebEx will be up and running so that you/we can see the slides. > https://workgreen.webex.com/workgreen/j.php?ED=151759917&UID=483233937&RT=MiMxNDI= > If you have not used WebEx before, I recommend trying to start > it sometime before the meeting: it needs to download and install > significant software and, if I recall, a browser plugin on your > machine. That takes a while, may require restarting your > browser, etc. It also has a tendency to crash certain browsers. Some experimentation may be necessary to find one that works for you. Ned From Shawn.Steele@microsoft.com Mon Mar 28 13:51:17 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FA5C28C128 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:51:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1YhqHbOCp1gU for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 103CB28B23E for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5EX14HUBC107.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.80.67) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.176.0; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:52:53 -0700 Received: from TK5EX14MBXC139.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([169.254.7.69]) by TK5EX14HUBC107.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.80.67]) with mapi id 14.01.0270.002; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:52:53 -0700 From: Shawn Steele To: John C Klensin , John Levine , "ima@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [EAI] Time of Meeting Thread-Index: Acvtei1fFXQlBVIbRtKCRnYSgGM8ugAQRPkAAAzHHPD//6vTAIAAdH6w Importance: low X-Priority: 5 Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 20:52:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20110328194442.76181.qmail@joyce.lan> <8DFF84BA1C5FA3DE5261FE15@PST.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: <8DFF84BA1C5FA3DE5261FE15@PST.JCK.COM> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [157.54.51.75] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [EAI] Time of Meeting X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 20:51:17 -0000 I give up, you win :) - Shawn -----Original Message----- From: John C Klensin [mailto:klensin@jck.com]=20 Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 1:49 PM To: Shawn Steele; John Levine; ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] Time of Meeting --On Monday, March 28, 2011 20:39 +0000 Shawn Steele wrote: > I didn't mean it as a complaint. I was actually relieved, as my=20 > initial estimate was 1 :) If it makes any of you feel better, I start Tuesday with an IAB meeting at = 07:30 Prague time and then run straight through the EAI meeting and a lunch. That is 01:30 through 07:00 local time, uninterrupted. john From yaojk@cnnic.cn Mon Mar 28 13:51:44 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5E963A6A6F for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:51:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Duplicate header field: "Message-ID" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.527, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.803, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LIDDUL4wH3Vr for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cnnic.cn (smtp.cnnic.cn [159.226.7.146]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id F3B703A6A69 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (eyou send program); Tue, 29 Mar 2011 04:53:15 +0800 Message-ID: <501345595.13453@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO lenovo47e041cf) (127.0.0.1) by 127.0.0.1 with SMTP; Tue, 29 Mar 2011 04:53:15 +0800 Message-ID: <3A931949F93243EEAD6EA9D6C80DC6F4@LENOVO47E041CF> From: "Jiankang YAO" To: "Shawn Steele" , "John Levine" , References: <20110328194442.76181.qmail@joyce.lan> <501344804.08754@cnnic.cn> Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 04:53:11 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 Subject: Re: [EAI] Time of Meeting X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 20:51:44 -0000 DQpJJ2QgbGlrZSB0byBjb252ZXIgOTowMCBBTSBpbiBQcmFndWUgdG8gVVRDL0dNVCA3OjAwIEFN LCAyOSwgTWFyLg0KdGhlbiBjb252ZXJ0ICBVVEMvR01UIDc6MDAgQU0sIDI5LCBNYXIuIHRvIHlv dXIgbG9jYWwgdGltZS4NCg0KSmlhbmthbmcgWWFvDQoNCg0KLS0tLS0gT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2Fn ZSAtLS0tLSANCkZyb206ICJTaGF3biBTdGVlbGUiIDxTaGF3bi5TdGVlbGVAbWljcm9zb2Z0LmNv bT4NClRvOiAiSm9obiBMZXZpbmUiIDxqb2hubEB0YXVnaC5jb20+OyA8aW1hQGlldGYub3JnPg0K U2VudDogVHVlc2RheSwgTWFyY2ggMjksIDIwMTEgNDozOSBBTQ0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtFQUld IFRpbWUgb2YgTWVldGluZw0KDQoNCj5JIGRpZG4ndCBtZWFuIGl0IGFzIGEgY29tcGxhaW50LiAg SSB3YXMgYWN0dWFsbHkgcmVsaWV2ZWQsIGFzIG15IGluaXRpYWwgZXN0aW1hdGUgd2FzIDEgOikN Cj4gDQo+IC0gU2hhd24NCj4gDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206 IEpvaG4gTGV2aW5lIFttYWlsdG86am9obmxAdGF1Z2guY29tXSANCj4gU2VudDogTW9uZGF5LCBN YXJjaCAyOCwgMjAxMSAxMjo0NSBQTQ0KPiBUbzogaW1hQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IENjOiBTaGF3biBT dGVlbGUNCj4gU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtFQUldIFRpbWUgb2YgTWVldGluZw0KPiANCj4+IElmIEkg ZGlkIHRoZSBtYXRoIHJpZ2h0LCB0aGUgRUFJIG10ZyBpcyBtaWRuaWdodCBpbiBQU1QgKFdhc2hp bmd0b24gJiANCj4+IENhbGlmb3JuaWEpPw0KPiANCj4gQ291bnQgeW91ciBibGVzc2luZ3MuICBU aGF0J3MgMyBBTSBoZXJlIGluIE5ldyBZb3JrLg0KPiANCj4gUidzLA0KPiBKb2huDQo+IA0KPiBf X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBJTUEgbWFp bGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IElNQUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFu L2xpc3RpbmZvL2ltYQ== From jyee@afilias.info Mon Mar 28 13:53:37 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D0A28B23E for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:53:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.265 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.265 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VHBc7vsULLbi for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outbound.afilias.info (outbound.afilias.info [69.46.124.26]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12D8F3A6A6F for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ms5.yyz2.afilias-ops.info ([10.50.129.111] helo=smtp.afilias.info) by outbound.afilias.info with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Q4JSy-00032a-77 for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 20:55:12 +0000 Received: from mail-iy0-f178.google.com ([209.85.210.178]) by smtp.afilias.info with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q4JSx-0001OY-6M for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 20:55:12 +0000 Received: by iyi12 with SMTP id 12so3970798iyi.9 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.162.196 with SMTP id z4mr7107632icx.47.1301345711414; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-47e8.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-47e8.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.71.232]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id vr5sm3008346icb.0.2011.03.28.13.55.07 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:55:10 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Joseph Yee In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:55:02 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4B062234-2A7B-49FE-9FAC-5188038C563D@afilias.info> References: <20110328194442.76181.qmail@joyce.lan> To: Shawn Steele X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) Cc: "ima@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [EAI] Time of Meeting X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 20:53:37 -0000 Prague got into daylight saving time this past weekend ;) On 2011-03-28, at 4:39 PM, Shawn Steele wrote: > I didn't mean it as a complaint. I was actually relieved, as my = initial estimate was 1 :) >=20 > - Shawn >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: John Levine [mailto:johnl@taugh.com]=20 > Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 12:45 PM > To: ima@ietf.org > Cc: Shawn Steele > Subject: Re: [EAI] Time of Meeting >=20 >> If I did the math right, the EAI mtg is midnight in PST (Washington &=20= >> California)? >=20 > Count your blessings. That's 3 AM here in New York. >=20 > R's, > John >=20 > _______________________________________________ > IMA mailing list > IMA@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From jyee@afilias.info Mon Mar 28 14:05:46 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C759E28C0F0 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 14:05:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.265 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.265 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8JdUkbW6LfEQ for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 14:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outbound.afilias.info (outbound.afilias.info [69.46.124.26]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17F063A6873 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 14:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ms5.yyz2.afilias-ops.info ([10.50.129.111] helo=smtp.afilias.info) by outbound.afilias.info with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Q4Jek-00030r-52 for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 21:07:22 +0000 Received: from mail-iy0-f178.google.com ([209.85.210.178]) by smtp.afilias.info with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q4Jek-0001lQ-4d for ima@ietf.org; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 21:07:22 +0000 Received: by iyi12 with SMTP id 12so3982188iyi.9 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 14:07:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.141.198 with SMTP id p6mr812453icu.100.1301346441739; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 14:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-47e8.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-47e8.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.71.232]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id mv26sm3165366ibb.11.2011.03.28.14.07.19 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 28 Mar 2011 14:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Joseph Yee In-Reply-To: <01NZG5XSHR1000H4Y3@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 17:07:15 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <146BCD04-7F4E-4A43-9261-7593B28B896C@afilias.info> References: <01NZG5XSHR1000H4Y3@mauve.mrochek.com> To: ned+ima@mrochek.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] Time of Meeting X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 21:05:46 -0000 On 2011-03-28, at 4:46 PM, ned+ima@mrochek.com wrote: >=20 >=20 >> --On Monday, March 28, 2011 11:47 -0800 Chris Waigl >> wrote: >=20 >>>=20 >>> On 28 Mar 2011, at 11:00, Shawn Steele wrote: >>>=20 >>>> If I did the math right, the EAI mtg is midnight in PST >>>> (Washington & California)? >>>=20 >>> Looks right to me. I'm in Alaska and have put a mental alarm >>> clock for 11pm. >=20 >> Yes. 9AM Prague, 3AM Boston (EDT), midnight PDT, 11PM Alaska. >=20 >> For other cities/ timezones, see >> = http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?month=3D3&day=3D29&ye= ar=3D2011&hour=3D9&min=3D0&sec=3D0&p1=3D204 >=20 >> WebEx will be up and running so that you/we can see the slides. >> = https://workgreen.webex.com/workgreen/j.php?ED=3D151759917&UID=3D483233937= &RT=3DMiMxNDI=3D >> If you have not used WebEx before, I recommend trying to start >> it sometime before the meeting: it needs to download and install >> significant software and, if I recall, a browser plugin on your >> machine. That takes a while, may require restarting your >> browser, etc. >=20 > It also has a tendency to crash certain browsers. Some experimentation = may be > necessary to find one that works for you. I'm not sure if it's OS related (MAC), I have solid WebEx experience = under Chrome. =20 Joseph >=20 > Ned > _______________________________________________ > IMA mailing list > IMA@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima From klensin@jck.com Mon Mar 28 14:17:03 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16F153A688B for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 14:17:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.624 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.624 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P51HYsFTySDA for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 14:17:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 120323A6873 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 14:17:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Q4JpX-00002t-Ar; Mon, 28 Mar 2011 17:18:31 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 17:18:30 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Ned Freed Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01NZG5XSHR1000H4Y3@mauve.mrochek.com> References: <01NZG5XSHR1000H4Y3@mauve.mrochek.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: Re: [EAI] Time of Meeting X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 21:17:03 -0000 --On Monday, March 28, 2011 13:46 -0700 Ned Freed wrote: >> WebEx will be up and running so that you/we can see the >> slides. >> https://workgreen.webex.com/workgreen/j.php?ED=151759917&UID= >> 483233937&RT=MiMxNDI= If you have not used WebEx before, I >> recommend trying to start it sometime before the meeting: it >> needs to download and install significant software and, if I >> recall, a browser plugin on your machine. That takes a >> while, may require restarting your browser, etc. > > It also has a tendency to crash certain browsers. Some > experimentation may be necessary to find one that works for > you. FWIW, I've found it to be a lot less fragile in recent months than is was a year or so ago. Note that "a lot less fragile" is very different from "really robust", so I still agree with your comment. john From Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Wed Mar 30 00:45:02 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 505073A6B22; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 00:45:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.58 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.58 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7bzZpZM+FxKv; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 00:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 893A53A6903; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 00:45:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 3.14 Message-ID: <20110330074501.31189.45500.idtracker@localhost> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 00:45:01 -0700 Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: [EAI] I-D Action:draft-ietf-eai-rfc5721bis-01.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 07:45:02 -0000 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Email Address Internationalization Working Group of the IETF. Title : POP3 Support for UTF-8 Author(s) : R. Gellens, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-eai-rfc5721bis-01.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2011-03-30 This specification extends the Post Office Protocol version 3 (POP3) to support un-encoded international characters in user names, passwords, mail addresses, message headers, and protocol-level textual error strings. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eai-rfc5721bis-01.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-eai-rfc5721bis-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2011-03-30003105.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- From Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Wed Mar 30 01:30:14 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3D383A6B32; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 01:30:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.581 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.581 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zvWq8Vqk-Bve; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 01:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74CAC28C118; Wed, 30 Mar 2011 01:30:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 3.14 Message-ID: <20110330083003.13562.77118.idtracker@localhost> Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 01:30:03 -0700 Cc: ima@ietf.org Subject: [EAI] I-D Action:draft-ietf-eai-5738bis-00.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 08:30:14 -0000 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Email Address Internationalization Working Group of the IETF. Title : IMAP Support for UTF-8 Author(s) : P. Resnick, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-eai-5738bis-00.txt Pages : 16 Date : 2011-03-30 This specification extends the Internet Message Access Protocol version 4rev1 (IMAP4rev1) to support UTF-8 encoded international characters in user names, mail addresses and message headers. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eai-5738bis-00.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-eai-5738bis-00.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2011-03-30011928.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- From jyee@afilias.info Thu Mar 31 23:23:29 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ima@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD4A73A69D0 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 23:23:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.265 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.265 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JutshChGAs4H for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 23:23:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outbound.afilias.info (outbound.afilias.info [69.46.124.26]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25BC33A6AE9 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 23:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ms5.yyz2.afilias-ops.info ([10.50.129.111] helo=smtp.afilias.info) by outbound.afilias.info with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Q5Xn3-000478-6L for ima@ietf.org; Fri, 01 Apr 2011 06:25:01 +0000 Received: from mail-bw0-f50.google.com ([209.85.214.50]) by smtp.afilias.info with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q5Xn3-0005dJ-5Y for ima@ietf.org; Fri, 01 Apr 2011 06:25:01 +0000 Received: by bwz2 with SMTP id 2so2187747bwz.9 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 23:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.18.193 with SMTP id x1mr1054876bka.79.1301639100234; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 23:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-4109.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-4109.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.65.9]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x6sm1158507bkv.12.2011.03.31.23.24.57 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 31 Mar 2011 23:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Joseph Yee In-Reply-To: <20110330083003.13562.77118.idtracker@localhost> Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 02:24:56 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <963907DD-FB10-407E-8154-38DACBED2C48@afilias.info> References: <20110330083003.13562.77118.idtracker@localhost> To: "ima@ietf.org WG" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) Subject: Re: [EAI] I-D Action:draft-ietf-eai-5738bis-00.txt X-BeenThere: ima@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: "EAI \(Email Address Internationalization\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2011 06:23:29 -0000 Hi all, Please review and discuss all EAI IMAP based on draft-ietf-eai-5738bis, = which posted on March 30 with new content, not 5378bis. We made typo = mistake, where the content of 5378bis meant for 5738bis. We will remove = 5378bis from EAI as soon as possible. So please review draft-eai-5738bis for EAI IMAP related. This draft is = not renaming only, it has content updated as well. =20 Thanks Joseph On 2011-03-30, at 4:30 AM, Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote: > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. > This draft is a work item of the Email Address Internationalization = Working Group of the IETF. >=20 >=20 > Title : IMAP Support for UTF-8 > Author(s) : P. Resnick, et al. > Filename : draft-ietf-eai-5738bis-00.txt > Pages : 16 > Date : 2011-03-30 >=20 > This specification extends the Internet Message Access Protocol > version 4rev1 (IMAP4rev1) to support UTF-8 encoded international > characters in user names, mail addresses and message headers. >=20 > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-eai-5738bis-00.txt >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > Internet-Draft. > _______________________________________________ > IMA mailing list > IMA@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ima