From giovanni@panozzo.it Mon Jul 18 02:21:48 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D85DA21F8B03 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 02:21:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.328 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.328 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.307, BAYES_05=-1.11, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NpKTZnLL-9xi for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 02:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from do2.yuu.it (host166-204-149-62.serverdedicati.aruba.it [62.149.204.166]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4652721F8B02 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 02:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.98.212] (host213-176-static.106-82-b.business.telecomitalia.it [82.106.176.213]) by do2.yuu.it (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 721D92D0655 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 11:21:47 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 11:21:46 +0200 From: Giovanni Panozzo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.17) Gecko/20110516 Thunderbird/3.1.10 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: imap5@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 09:21:48 -0000 Hi, I just landed in this mailing list after searching news on IMAP protocol. Is this ML dead ? Is Microsoft Active-Sync taking over IMAP ? I'm a system integrator as main job, and sometimes a developer, C, Java, PHP for hobby. I manage some IMAP servers, mainly based on linux+dovecot+postfix. But I can see that IMAP is being replaced by the simpler to configure, more features rich Microsoft Active Sync. I have read the IMAP whishlist of "Philip Van Hoof", posted back in 2008. It's a programmer's point of view whishlist, I like it, but I would like to contribute with my end-user and system configurator point of viwe. I also can contribute with debugging and testing. But I can't see any traffic in this ML since 2010 :( Is there anyone ? :) Giovanni From brong@fastmail.fm Mon Jul 18 04:57:12 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70E5021F8B39 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 04:57:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_57=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wuvA1kqawG4q for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 04:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4.smtp.messagingengine.com (out4.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D653121F86FF for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 04:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.43]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 702D720349; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 07:57:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend2.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.161]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 18 Jul 2011 07:57:00 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=content-type:to:subject:references:date:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:from:message-id:in-reply-to; s=smtpout; bh=VV+QmY0j1L1xzd0DaHSNFd1yMS8=; b=HrTPwf4bwdIC8KaUiQIiyeBO5IZYmJWxyVcqAOJiJH+57iie2fSJ+SMmwishRPGKIg7PGuhTmW/1dkAfW/F7XuidB8SwPjnmHAsbT2m8mBlOcXc8/EHDmdekhKdKgvc0+AD+ZpRSg/0C/i3C0Ru3zeKHu0hEbwvbtwLFfapzNpQ= X-Sasl-enc: sze3eXlG2oXqaD7dMIykVVEMyUjbp1nZqZhCPoG+ogVE 1310990220 Received: from arbre.eng.oslo.osa (pat-tdc.opera.com [213.236.208.22]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CEEF04471EF; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 07:56:59 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes To: imap5@ietf.org, "Giovanni Panozzo" References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 13:57:07 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bron Gondwana" Organization: FastMail.FM Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> User-Agent: Opera Mail/11.50 (Linux) Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 11:57:12 -0000 On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 11:21:46 +0200, Giovanni Panozzo wrote: > Hi, I just landed in this mailing list after searching news on IMAP > protocol. > > Is this ML dead ? > Is Microsoft Active-Sync taking over IMAP ? > > I'm a system integrator as main job, and sometimes a developer, C, Java, > PHP for hobby. I manage some IMAP servers, mainly based on > linux+dovecot+postfix. > But I can see that IMAP is being replaced by the simpler to configure, > more features rich Microsoft Active Sync. > > I have read the IMAP whishlist of "Philip Van Hoof", posted back in > 2008. It's a programmer's point of view whishlist, I like it, but I > would like to contribute with my end-user and system configurator point > of viwe. I also can contribute with debugging and testing. > > But I can't see any traffic in this ML since 2010 :( > > Is there anyone ? :) I think it got declared "too hard" and pretty much died - nobody could agree on the important set of things to include. Little things like: "If you move 10,000 messages to Archive.2011 then all other clients shouldn't need to download everything again" "If you rename a folder then every other client shouldn't need to download everything again" Which in my opinion are important got jumped on by Mark "you don't understand IMAP" Crispin - who has very fixed ideas about which problems IMAP should be solving, and the ability to cache full mailbox state locally for offline work is not one of them! And then there's the "don't send the whole message up the wire twice on compose" problem, which has been solved badly in a few ways but nobody seems to be willing to look at "extend the APPEND syntax to add: also send via SMTP on successful append", which is bloody trivial compared to extending the SMTP server to make an authenticated request back to the IMAP server and fetch out the body of the message, which is so complex that approximately nobody gets it right, and certainly nobody actually makes it easy for a mom-and-pop toaster server to set up. Not to mention "move messages" - the number of times people run into "I was trying to move these big messages to an archive folder and got told I was over quota". That's because IMAP doesn't do that, you COPY first and then STORE+EXPUNGE the original messages. A move command that did nothing more than that but skipped the quota lookup if they were both within the quotaroot would be enough. It still has the rare failure mode where a server problem during the copy+delete would leave the message in BOTH mailboxes, but that's no different than if the client crashes or loses network part way through the process. So what. At least it would give a nice user experience in the common case, and no extra downsides. But there doesn't appear to be any will to actually solve these problems on this list any more, and my proposal of a standard way to fetch the digest of a message (DIGEST=SHA1) got shot down, so I kind of gave up and just do my own thing now... and try to get upstream Cyrus to follow all the standards that it can at the same time. I notice gmail do pretty much the same, they don't care too much about standards, but have some IMAP extensions that let you see that a message is the same original message after a rename. Their folders are a bit funky as well, but they do expose the stuff to allow you to use them efficiently. The problem is, you can fetch DIGEST.SHA1 from FastMail, you can fetch X-GM-MSGID from Gmail, and you can't rely on ANYTHING in the general case, because you might wind up talking to an old Lotus Notes server, and all bets are off. That's the biggest problem that an IMAP5 would be good at solving, lift the baseline so that clients don't need to work around lack of UIDPLUS, CONDSTORE, etc. Meaning they can get consistent semantics without having to keep fallback codepaths that guess about what happened. Bron. From randy@qualcomm.com Mon Jul 18 09:58:54 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C18C21F8B95 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 09:58:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0azM4jOZCBTP for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 09:58:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine02.qualcomm.com (wolverine02.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.251]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0832E21F8B3D for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 09:58:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=randy@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1311008329; x=1342544329; h=message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:date:to:from: subject:mime-version:content-type:x-random-sig-tag: x-originating-ip; z=Message-ID:=20 |In-Reply-To:=20 |References:=20<4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it>=0D=0A=20|X-Mailer:=20Eudora=20for =20Mac=20OS=20X|Date:=20Mon,=2018=20Jul=202011=2009:37:58 =20-0700|To:=20Bron=20Gondwana=20,=20< imap5@ietf.org>,=20Giovanni=20Panozzo=0D=0A=09|From:=20Randall=20Gellens=20|Subject:=20Re:=20[imap5]=20Where=20is=20IMAP5=20? |MIME-Version:=201.0|Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20char set=3D"us-ascii"=3B=20format=3Dflowed|X-Random-Sig-Tag: =201.0b28|X-Originating-IP:=20[172.30.39.5]; bh=zzkltPYXlO6aynPad7yCYtwCasDbemlcCm7EAlvDDu4=; b=DoqiCiSUdk+iuGJ9PK8Pid/Zr6aaZYhDt9rQSIIb9jOQnrsplGQOlPiA /kvVkWMZi/39cqf5Af8Gmjn64O0pnEUDqN+IO6Na/IDd66SnkoWLaVU8n D9Rwtgxx2lokI/9o/tYuYCoQo5Mowz0u+I2dmISHRZu4A+RItpkPnQOnw M=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5400,1158,6411"; a="104213997" Received: from ironmsg04-r.qualcomm.com ([172.30.46.18]) by wolverine02.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 18 Jul 2011 09:58:49 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,222,1309762800"; d="scan'208";a="91850506" Received: from nasanexhc07.na.qualcomm.com ([172.30.39.190]) by Ironmsg04-R.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 18 Jul 2011 09:58:49 -0700 Received: from loud.pensive.org (172.30.39.5) by qcmail1.qualcomm.com (172.30.39.190) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.0; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 09:58:48 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 09:37:58 -0700 To: Bron Gondwana , , Giovanni Panozzo From: Randall Gellens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 X-Originating-IP: [172.30.39.5] Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 16:58:54 -0000 At 1:57 PM +0200 7/18/11, Bron Gondwana wrote: > And then there's the "don't send the whole message up the wire twice on > compose" problem, which has been solved badly in a few ways but nobody > seems to be willing to look at "extend the APPEND syntax to add: also > send via SMTP on successful append", which is bloody trivial compared to > extending the SMTP server to make an authenticated request back to the > IMAP server and fetch out the body of the message, which is so complex > that approximately nobody gets it right, and certainly nobody actually > makes it easy for a mom-and-pop toaster server to set up. Extending IMAP to do SMTP is one of those "attractive nuisance" solutions that is seductive at first, but increasingly problematic when examined. Particularly when combined with SMTP's own complexity and set of extensions, it quickly becomes worse than the alternatives. > That's the biggest problem that an IMAP5 would be good at solving, > lift the baseline so that clients don't need to work around lack of > UIDPLUS, CONDSTORE, etc. Meaning they can get consistent semantics > without having to keep fallback codepaths that guess about what happened. That was also one of the goals of lemonade -- move the IMAP baseline so clients didn't have to deal with every possible server variation. Problem is, it's hard for a client to refuse to work with older servers. A lemonade client has an advantage in that it's presumably in a new device and a new environment, but it would be even harder for a client to be IMAP5 only. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- [Television is] chewing gum for the eyes. --attribributed to Fred Allen via Frank Lloyd Wright From fanf2@hermes.cam.ac.uk Mon Jul 18 10:10:23 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE34221F8BA1 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 10:10:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vJWgh32ecUyH for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 10:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsw-51.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw-51.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.151]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D6EA21F854A for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 10:09:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-SpamDetails: not scanned X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ Received: from hermes-2.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.54]:37920) by ppsw-51.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.158]:25) with esmtpa (EXTERNAL:fanf2) id 1QirK2-0002FT-ZQ (Exim 4.72) (return-path ); Mon, 18 Jul 2011 18:09:34 +0100 Received: from fanf2 (helo=localhost) by hermes-2.csi.cam.ac.uk (hermes.cam.ac.uk) with local-esmtp id 1QirK2-0006Qs-VK (Exim 4.67) (return-path ); Mon, 18 Jul 2011 18:09:34 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 18:09:34 +0100 From: Tony Finch X-X-Sender: fanf2@hermes-2.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Bron Gondwana In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (LSU 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: Tony Finch Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 17:10:23 -0000 Bron Gondwana wrote: > > And then there's the "don't send the whole message up the wire twice on > compose" problem, which has been solved badly in a few ways but nobody > seems to be willing to look at "extend the APPEND syntax to add: also > send via SMTP on successful append", which is bloody trivial compared to > extending the SMTP server to make an authenticated request back to the > IMAP server and fetch out the body of the message, which is so complex > that approximately nobody gets it right, and certainly nobody actually > makes it easy for a mom-and-pop toaster server to set up. Yes I agree that it's really nasty, but it does have some kind of architectural logic. A key principle is that an MTA should not have to look in the message data to deliver a message - just the SMTP envelope (i,e, the MAIL and RCPT commands). This leads to various ESMTP features (notably DSN) glomming stuff on to the envelope. Many of these features include things that an MUA would typically like to control. This leads to the problem that an IMAP extension to support message submission would have to duplicate much of ESMTP, including support for as-yet-undefined ESMTP extensions. In particular you can't simply tweak APPEND since it has no provision for specifying the message envelope. I tend to think that the original principle is a historical relic that should probably be discarded (though that would require re-doing the DSN extension, and perhaps others, leading to all sorts of compatibility fun). That would allow you to do message submission without an envelope, including directly from a message store. But the argument has been done and dusted... Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ Humber: Southwest 5 to 7 decreasing 4. Moderate or rough, becoming slight or moderate. Squally showers. Moderate or good. From brong@fastmail.fm Mon Jul 18 11:34:32 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8485621F8AF0 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 11:34:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r9rMlOoLp3jZ for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 11:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4.smtp.messagingengine.com (out4.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 961B921F8AED for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 11:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.43]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BC412097C; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 14:34:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend2.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.161]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 18 Jul 2011 14:34:31 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version:content-type:in-reply-to; s=smtpout; bh=ieLwKhD8zcVIcCA6vrHsZs05GgY=; b=MAYVBzd1RvSbeAsUlnhAGNCzg1vsZhmnh1D1ENrqdoDnkxeEs3D0hcrTF4E2YN1wRjol27eYrIimFUHYtlefk1ukxL5ujWkEOO9SoN4qQ/FRFp0nQAAGRrpX4bMVXD+FIq30zhifMHynyW96L4Ji7TNCoHgYn3lDJiiyMzGKt+c= X-Sasl-enc: L/pBf5bHh5ROJ9UAhmYajtZxFjMacsfYr6/s8ipwOMav 1311014070 Received: from localhost (56.243.9.46.customer.cdi.no [46.9.243.56]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C368E44113B; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 14:34:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C7796201FF; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 20:34:29 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 20:34:29 +0200 From: Bron Gondwana To: Randall Gellens Message-ID: <20110718183429.GA5192@brong.net> References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: brong.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 18:34:32 -0000 On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 09:37:58AM -0700, Randall Gellens wrote: > At 1:57 PM +0200 7/18/11, Bron Gondwana wrote: > > > And then there's the "don't send the whole message up the wire twice on > > compose" problem, which has been solved badly in a few ways but nobody > > seems to be willing to look at "extend the APPEND syntax to add: also > > send via SMTP on successful append", which is bloody trivial compared to > > extending the SMTP server to make an authenticated request back to the > > IMAP server and fetch out the body of the message, which is so complex > > that approximately nobody gets it right, and certainly nobody actually > > makes it easy for a mom-and-pop toaster server to set up. > > Extending IMAP to do SMTP is one of those "attractive nuisance" > solutions that is seductive at first, but increasingly problematic > when examined. Particularly when combined with SMTP's own > complexity and set of extensions, it quickly becomes worse than the > alternatives. Pigs arse. It's only complex if you make it complex. Pipe the message to an external command (say: postfix's 'deliver', or sendmail -bm) and be done with it. Not hard. Sure you can make the problem overly complex and then shoot down the strawman, and people have been for years. But a simple way of saying "store this email and also cause it to be delivered" would solve 99% of people's problems adequately, without the current mess of uploading approximately the same message twice, and without every email client on the planet also having to be an SMTP client if it wants to run on an operating system that doesn't have a "deliver" of its own. Add a couple > > That's the biggest problem that an IMAP5 would be good at solving, > > lift the baseline so that clients don't need to work around lack of > > UIDPLUS, CONDSTORE, etc. Meaning they can get consistent semantics > > without having to keep fallback codepaths that guess about what happened. > > That was also one of the goals of lemonade -- move the IMAP baseline > so clients didn't have to deal with every possible server variation. > Problem is, it's hard for a client to refuse to work with older > servers. A lemonade client has an advantage in that it's presumably > in a new device and a new environment, but it would be even harder > for a client to be IMAP5 only. Sure, for a while. But you could create a new client that's only IMAP5 and say "this client only supports the shiny new IMAP5" and people would say "we want IMAP5 on our server". While you say "Lemonade" and people say "huh?" Lemonade isn't marketable the way IMAP5 is. That said, I don't much care what it's called. I care that insanely baroque complex protocols are built to work around rare edge cases (IMAP server doesn't have a working command that can take an email and deliver the bloody thing somewhere) and over 10 years since I started taking an interest in email programs, almost every client in existence STILL pushes the email via SMTP and then appends it to the Sent folder, because the alternatives are crap. Seriously, "attractive nuisance" indeed. I'm tempted to implement this and write patches for a couple of clients. It's probably about 50 lines of code in Cyrus (including error checking) to make this work. Set up the append, invoke deliver with the path to the file on disk, and either abort the append or complete depending on the result of the deliver command. Add a few lines of config file to allow you to specify an alternative. No, scratch that - there's already an external deliver command used for sieve: { "sendmail", "/usr/lib/sendmail", STRING } /* The pathname of the sendmail executable. Sieve invokes sendmail for sending rejections, redirects and vacation responses. */ Bron. From brong@fastmail.fm Mon Jul 18 11:45:05 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3025A21F8B66 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 11:45:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J9gnvBCLRlA1 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 11:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4.smtp.messagingengine.com (out4.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4330B21F8B10 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 11:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.43]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E328720BE5; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 14:45:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend1.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.160]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 18 Jul 2011 14:45:03 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version:content-type:in-reply-to; s=smtpout; bh=HLGiKqpL4FQ/ESrL+D76mCBt66Y=; b=lKxVyjvjOc+RiCiLQKvFp5IRFEk5NgisQ8Zds/QDMweybdUpTV3YuI67cLXxOOTSVdGvGGThnd9wPdktxSzGyKevvt5AUckphaG8USWhNltyIAco83TkJF+AS1vOdpJw3pYe/y/n6KqlH8TuY9Z7HcKxM3w+0Nk/A4/7RjKml44= X-Sasl-enc: kroA7gE5oDbnDLBVLZovxiBTCel+LnDuN9zld19fSALn 1311014703 Received: from localhost (56.243.9.46.customer.cdi.no [46.9.243.56]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 92C21403D33; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 14:45:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5E8D7201FF; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 20:45:02 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 20:45:02 +0200 From: Bron Gondwana To: Tony Finch Message-ID: <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: brong.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 18:45:05 -0000 On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 06:09:34PM +0100, Tony Finch wrote: > A key principle is that an MTA should not have to look in the message data > to deliver a message - just the SMTP envelope (i,e, the MAIL and RCPT > commands). This leads to various ESMTP features (notably DSN) glomming > stuff on to the envelope. Many of these features include things that an > MUA would typically like to control. Explain sendmail -bm. Most people just want the email to get put into an outbound queue thanks very much. The key principle is nice in theory. In practice your average MTA is doing plenty of deep content inspection before it agrees to do anything with an email these days anyway. > This leads to the problem that an IMAP extension to support message > submission would have to duplicate much of ESMTP, including support for > as-yet-undefined ESMTP extensions. In particular you can't simply tweak > APPEND since it has no provision for specifying the message envelope. APPEND (ACTION SEND ENVFROM "brong@fastmail.fm" ENVTO "dot@dotat.at") \ "Sent Folder" TIMESTAMP (FLAGS) {1234+} .... 99% solved. The search for perfect has produced pretty-much "unusable". Sure there are plenty of syntactical ways to skin this particular cat, but a key value list as the second parameter to APPEND (or you could put one after FLAGS too) would work fine. > I tend to think that the original principle is a historical relic that > should probably be discarded (though that would require re-doing the DSN > extension, and perhaps others, leading to all sorts of compatibility fun). > That would allow you to do message submission without an envelope, > including directly from a message store. But the argument has been done > and dusted... And still nobody has actually come up with anything which actually works. Which sounds to me like "dusted under the carpet". I'm not interested in solving all the world's theoretical problems, I'm interested in solving the "this message needs to go into the user's sent folder and also be sent to the receipients named in the headers" problem. In the simplest possible way. Simple enough that there's a high probability of clients and servers actually implementing it, because it costs them so little and gains them so much. Bron. From fanf2@hermes.cam.ac.uk Mon Jul 18 11:58:51 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0180621F8B66 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 11:58:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HhZuF276hDcm for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 11:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsw-41.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw-41.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEC0521F8BB4 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 11:58:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-SpamDetails: not scanned X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ Received: from hermes-2.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.54]:50580) by ppsw-41.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.156]:25) with esmtpa (EXTERNAL:fanf2) id 1Qit1h-0007WY-SV (Exim 4.72) (return-path ); Mon, 18 Jul 2011 19:58:45 +0100 Received: from fanf2 (helo=localhost) by hermes-2.csi.cam.ac.uk (hermes.cam.ac.uk) with local-esmtp id 1Qit1h-0003Qg-Qf (Exim 4.67) (return-path ); Mon, 18 Jul 2011 19:58:45 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 19:58:45 +0100 From: Tony Finch X-X-Sender: fanf2@hermes-2.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Bron Gondwana In-Reply-To: <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> Message-ID: References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (LSU 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: Tony Finch Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 18:58:51 -0000 Bron Gondwana wrote: > On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 06:09:34PM +0100, Tony Finch wrote: > > A key principle is that an MTA should not have to look in the message data > > to deliver a message - just the SMTP envelope (i,e, the MAIL and RCPT > > commands). This leads to various ESMTP features (notably DSN) glomming > > stuff on to the envelope. Many of these features include things that an > > MUA would typically like to control. > > Explain sendmail -bm. The command line controls the envelope. See the -N and -B options for examples of SMTP service extensions, the -f option gives the argument to MAIL FROM, and the non-option arguments correspond to the RCPT TO arguments. > Most people just want the email to get put into an outbound queue thanks > very much. The key principle is nice in theory. In practice your > average MTA is doing plenty of deep content inspection before it agrees > to do anything with an email these days anyway. Yes. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ Humber: Southwest 5 to 7 decreasing 4. Moderate or rough, becoming slight or moderate. Squally showers. Moderate or good. From brong@fastmail.fm Mon Jul 18 12:00:43 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FBD821F8BB9 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:00:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iDf-3j8b1b-m for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4.smtp.messagingengine.com (out4.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A62E11E80A2 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.43]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A111206C3; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 15:00:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend2.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.161]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 18 Jul 2011 15:00:22 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version:content-type:in-reply-to; s=smtpout; bh=34gvDuUcvGeIY8MjDrxyfHqxYlc=; b=DD6VyLMicwHiXwom1sLGZqaWBeuZ+MJBDYkWNwVhLX8TqP8gosLUTWTWDzuccLzpm7nf+PngspyCZe3k2EuH4pwDw0Bb2LWtm0hiVQtkgZjQNeAAYQbaT9KsCBV1ugOxQ61k5WGY7uyMOKNjFldoHUquOCb95QqtiZVhKOuJ/Zc= X-Sasl-enc: +YRJjvV7jaMoRjWCO7Ymvgc4kOVjDqbeD4NpzGrE0584 1311015621 Received: from localhost (56.243.9.46.customer.cdi.no [46.9.243.56]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EE4014472A2; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 15:00:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 08E8C2020C; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 21:00:21 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 21:00:21 +0200 From: Bron Gondwana To: Tony Finch Message-ID: <20110718190021.GA8329@brong.net> References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: brong.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 19:00:43 -0000 On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 07:58:45PM +0100, Tony Finch wrote: > Bron Gondwana wrote: > > > On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 06:09:34PM +0100, Tony Finch wrote: > > > A key principle is that an MTA should not have to look in the message data > > > to deliver a message - just the SMTP envelope (i,e, the MAIL and RCPT > > > commands). This leads to various ESMTP features (notably DSN) glomming > > > stuff on to the envelope. Many of these features include things that an > > > MUA would typically like to control. > > > > Explain sendmail -bm. > > The command line controls the envelope. See the -N and -B options for > examples of SMTP service extensions, the -f option gives the argument to > MAIL FROM, and the non-option arguments correspond to the RCPT TO > arguments. Sure, or you can just pass a message and it will read the headers to determine the sender and recipients. Sometimes you don't want that, but that's a much rarer case that plenty of clients don't really support anyway. We're optimising the rare cases at the expense of making the common case easy. Bron. From mrcrispin@panda.com Mon Jul 18 11:47:59 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FF2821F8B95 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 11:47:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aWODnCvEh+Hi for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 11:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Panda.COM (panda.com [206.124.149.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 695C521F8B91 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 11:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Panda.COM ([192.107.14.50]) with ESMTP via TCP; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 11:47:23 -0700 X-MailFrom: mrcrispin@panda.com Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 11:47:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Bron Gondwana In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:03:06 -0700 Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 18:47:59 -0000 On Mon, 18 Jul 2011, Bron Gondwana wrote: > Which in my opinion are important got jumped on by Mark "you don't > understand IMAP" Crispin - who has very fixed ideas about which problems > IMAP should be solving, and the ability to cache full mailbox state > locally for offline work is not one of them! Troll. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. From brong@fastmail.fm Mon Jul 18 12:10:22 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 573D021F85F2 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:10:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YSJnAW7teLQC for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:10:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4.smtp.messagingengine.com (out4.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A6F421F8553 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:10:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.46]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2184020C26; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 15:09:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend2.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.161]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 18 Jul 2011 15:09:49 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version:content-type:in-reply-to; s=smtpout; bh=xJCuJsWnA2vWpm+/c1h74lG3tnw=; b=Tiu7UB/oPzlj4AgeeHyy79dSX4cLOr4xaJKZ8ijHZCtrUsyFu7U2tJyrBwgIkKCNsB3A/hfN2zFuVVkTjriEHZuTS1bIgqhvJHcRgphNT/18XQpftBKau6lP/WEpX/5B5vBKPzC15U0a92GiUisYmSEFO3ZkN33m9EvwAlrdSHc= X-Sasl-enc: TzHUPuueGYNeVGoihK3KGClEb3TeqMbBlrn+kIRhUhZQ 1311016188 Received: from localhost (56.243.9.46.customer.cdi.no [46.9.243.56]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CF24A442755; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 15:09:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id DD49F2020C; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 21:09:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 21:09:47 +0200 From: Bron Gondwana To: Mark Crispin Message-ID: <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: brong.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 19:10:22 -0000 On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 11:47:10AM -0700, Mark Crispin wrote: > On Mon, 18 Jul 2011, Bron Gondwana wrote: > >Which in my opinion are important got jumped on by Mark "you don't > >understand IMAP" Crispin - who has very fixed ideas about which problems > >IMAP should be solving, and the ability to cache full mailbox state > >locally for offline work is not one of them! > > Troll. Absolutely. However your response to most of my arguments about the things that are causing friction amongst users and frustrating their wants is "you don't understand IMAP". Fact: lots of people want the ability to cache pretty much "the entire mailbox state", and not have to download it all again. Example from ##imap earlier today: brong: having RENAME not change the mailbox UIDVALIDITY would be far cooler ;-) at least for me. BranchPredictor, asked and answered I'm afraid yes, I remember. you have to, or you can wind up with a different folder with the same uidvalidity and different contents anyway, thanks for help. anyway, what do you win? but not changing UIDVALIDITY on rename? (sorry, by) unless you're implementing "undo" for a mistaken rename not really. just don't like the idea of redownloading entire 84MB of data (for ~85000 messages). :) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I'm not insisting on anything, really, there are servers that don't have stuff like UNSELECT or UIDPLUS implemented and THAT is real PITA for me, because I still need to handle them somehow. BranchPredictor, even with "RENAMEPLUS" (i.e. the client should know that it renamed the folder) it only helps the client that actually did the rename to do anything else, there would have to be a "folder unique id" that the client could use to detect renames Cyrus has one internally but there's no way via IMAP to expose it well time for IMAP5? :-D Lots of people don't like the idea of redownloading entire 84MB of data on a folder rename. They're crying out for a mail protocol that offers them this. IMAP is an "attractive nuisence" that has stopped anyone except the closed crowd from developing anything else, because it's kinda almost good enough, if you jump through enough hoops, to do what they want to do. And everyone supports it, or at least near enough, or at least kinda some parts. Which is why we still have clients downloading 84MB of data when someone renames a folder. Because it's rare enough that the pain becomes a distant memory again next time they want to do it. Or the just don't rename folders. And NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY, enjoys configuring a separate SMTP server at their ISP and doing the "will my provider support port 587, or will port 25 be blocked for me" dance to get email to send. A few years ago it was particularly bad, when most clients defaulted to trying port 25, and most ISPs were blocking port 25. Most of our support traffic was people suddenly discovering they couldn't send email to our servers any more, and us talking them through using alternative ports. Bron. From mrc+ietf@panda.com Mon Jul 18 12:11:02 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B689821F8ABD for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:11:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MHFWGcgfCVwV for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:10:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Panda.COM (panda.com [206.124.149.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BC9621F8553 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:10:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Panda.COM ([192.107.14.50]) with ESMTP via TCP; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:10:55 -0700 X-MailFrom: mrc+ietf@panda.com Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:10:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: imap5@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20110718190021.GA8329@brong.net> Message-ID: References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> <20110718190021.GA8329@brong.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 19:11:02 -0000 On Mon, 18 Jul 2011, Bron Gondwana wrote: > We're optimising the rare cases at the expense of making the > common case easy. bccs, address forwardings, and mailing lists are "rare cases"? -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. From randy@qualcomm.com Mon Jul 18 12:12:49 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DED4E21F859C for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:12:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UpSj1JUN5Pg2 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:12:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine02.qualcomm.com (wolverine02.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.251]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FA6521F8B07 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:12:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=randy@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1311016365; x=1342552365; h=message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:date:to:from: subject:cc:mime-version:content-type:x-random-sig-tag: x-originating-ip; z=Message-ID:=20 |In-Reply-To:=20<20110718183429.GA5192@brong.net> |References:=20<4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it>=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20<20110718183429.GA5192@b rong.net>|X-Mailer:=20Eudora=20for=20Mac=20OS=20X|Date: =20Mon,=2018=20Jul=202011=2012:02:10=20-0700|To:=20Bron =20Gondwana=20|From:=20Randall=20Gelle ns=20|Subject:=20Re:=20[imap5]=20Wher e=20is=20IMAP5=20?|CC:=20|MIME-Version: =201.0|Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3D"us-asci i"=3B=20format=3Dflowed|X-Random-Sig-Tag:=201.0b28 |X-Originating-IP:=20[172.30.48.1]; bh=4J3x6L7zbUWP4t3LMedcH/RULwvNSxLByk0dy3WjvPo=; b=eKM3lnVpd6cD6vkVcRF0fEWP48j7hvnkbeJivdEyhcZN6AHgHfaRbhLv 1ZFYsXy/6VTaxtHwd7pwbraCM+YLOhfWbqipUWBDaGUVTJ8LSXKChKt+4 2sHB4bSmBVjV4Jf8x3DuTyaI5luX6pSJmdJ/M0V/GqwIdyTdVj8aNsriB U=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5400,1158,6411"; a="104250851" Received: from ironmsg02-r.qualcomm.com ([172.30.46.16]) by wolverine02.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 18 Jul 2011 12:12:45 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,222,1309762800"; d="scan'208";a="155123463" Received: from nasanexhc04.na.qualcomm.com ([172.30.48.17]) by ironmsg02-R.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 18 Jul 2011 12:12:44 -0700 Received: from loud.pensive.org (172.30.48.1) by qcmail1.qualcomm.com (172.30.48.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.0; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:11:05 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20110718183429.GA5192@brong.net> References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718183429.GA5192@brong.net> X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:02:10 -0700 To: Bron Gondwana From: Randall Gellens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 X-Originating-IP: [172.30.48.1] Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 19:12:50 -0000 Solutions which seem to work but don't handle anything except the most obvious case can be dangerous. For a while it was common for people to use fetchmail to retrieve mail via POP and then relay it via SMTP. This is one of those solutions that seems to work but because it only has access to the data (the envelope being gone) can result in unpleasant problems. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- The radio listener saw nothing; he had to use his imagination...With the high cost of living and the many problems facing him in the modern world, all the poor man had left was his imagination. Television has taken that away from him. --Fred Allen From mrc+ietf@panda.com Mon Jul 18 12:16:20 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22E6721F8451 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:16:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4O0Ot6P8IoRK for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Panda.COM (panda.com [206.124.149.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E0FA11E8070 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Panda.COM ([192.107.14.50]) with ESMTP via TCP; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:14:45 -0700 X-MailFrom: mrc+ietf@panda.com Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:14:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Bron Gondwana In-Reply-To: <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> Message-ID: References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 19:16:20 -0000 On Mon, 18 Jul 2011, Bron Gondwana wrote: > Absolutely. However your response to most of my arguments about the > things that are causing friction amongst users and frustrating their > wants is "you don't understand IMAP". That is the inevitable result of your refusal to understand, and your false representation of the issue (and the positions of others) when you talk with others. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. From Pidgeot18@verizon.net Mon Jul 18 12:16:55 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A0B321F854C for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:16:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JGbxkXgQNv9c for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vms173013pub.verizon.net (vms173013pub.verizon.net [206.46.173.13]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B877011E807B for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.250.3.235] ([unknown] [63.245.220.240]) by vms173013.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.02 32bit (built Apr 16 2009)) with ESMTPA id <0LOJ00DMWMTHOO63@vms173013.mailsrvcs.net> for imap5@ietf.org; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 14:15:19 -0500 (CDT) Message-id: <4E248641.7010907@verizon.net> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:15:13 -0700 From: Joshua Cranmer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.18) Gecko/20110616 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.11 MIME-version: 1.0 To: imap5@ietf.org References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> <20110718190021.GA8329@brong.net> In-reply-to: Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 19:16:55 -0000 On 7/18/2011 12:10 PM, Mark Crispin wrote: > On Mon, 18 Jul 2011, Bron Gondwana wrote: >> We're optimising the rare cases at the expense of making the >> common case easy. > > bccs, address forwardings, and mailing lists are "rare cases"? And is this anything that couldn't be resolved with APPENDNSEND ? -- Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth From arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no Mon Jul 18 12:07:14 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE13321F8880 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:07:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DFhRuyo1PBAP for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from strange.aox.org (strange.aox.org [IPv6:2001:4d88:100c::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 043FC21F8877 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:07:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fri.gulbrandsen.priv.no (kalyani.aox.org [79.140.39.164]) by strange.aox.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DF62FA00AD; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 19:07:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no by fri.gulbrandsen.priv.no (Archiveopteryx 3.1.3) with esmtpsa id 1311016030-1279-1278/9/896; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 21:07:10 +0200 Message-Id: <4E24845D.7020600@gulbrandsen.priv.no> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 21:07:09 +0200 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen Organization: Me, http://arnt.gulbrandsen.priv.no User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.17) Gecko/20110424 Thunderbird/3.1.10 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: imap5@ietf.org References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> In-Reply-To: <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:19:56 -0700 Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 19:07:14 -0000 On 07/18/2011 08:45 PM, Bron Gondwana wrote: > APPEND (ACTION SEND ENVFROM "brong@fastmail.fm" ENVTO "dot@dotat.at") \ > "Sent Folder" TIMESTAMP (FLAGS) {1234+} > .... Write draft-gondwana-imap-send, make it cover 99%, submit it for publication without support for all the corner cases. Please. We need more ninetyninepercentery and less perfection. Arnt From mrcrispin@panda.com Mon Jul 18 12:20:10 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B8F922800E for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:20:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rmI-X3N9mbJM for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Panda.COM (panda.com [206.124.149.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFAE122800D for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Panda.COM ([192.107.14.50]) with ESMTP via TCP; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:20:01 -0700 X-MailFrom: mrcrispin@panda.com Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:19:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Joshua Cranmer In-Reply-To: <4E248641.7010907@verizon.net> Message-ID: References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> <20110718190021.GA8329@brong.net> <4E248641.7010907@verizon.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 19:20:10 -0000 On Mon, 18 Jul 2011, Joshua Cranmer wrote: > On 7/18/2011 12:10 PM, Mark Crispin wrote: >> On Mon, 18 Jul 2011, Bron Gondwana wrote: >>> We're optimising the rare cases at the expense of making the >>> common case easy. >> bccs, address forwardings, and mailing lists are "rare cases"? > And is this anything that couldn't be resolved with > APPENDNSEND ? That would certainly solve it as long as you duplicate all of SMTP and its states. The problem is that you have to duplicate all of SMTP and its states. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. From brong@fastmail.fm Mon Jul 18 12:22:47 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5288A21F8A66 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:22:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AY-IIFREfo4S for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4.smtp.messagingengine.com (out4.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4E1521F8A4E for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.44]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 448E420923; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 15:22:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend1.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.160]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 18 Jul 2011 15:22:44 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version:content-type:in-reply-to; s=smtpout; bh=vGiEgVp42bV+9DSwmM/uH2dsb9Y=; b=W965CK2LUEwuApt7gzmSlENKaYmSF5F0sAV99O+QuRpoPUxA+gsBWlswOPhOhooWx8Ea8tB5+tvtegc8HXek8fHpMeKQmd1O5pO2K2vpJgn8rtFwobSMy/Y/2wzdqz0i3VQ8y/bkgz/tAUcrRkvuiufmISH72RXsQXasq1wbxds= X-Sasl-enc: C7lSTeP4RAQCMJZlYj8X8bx8/una42T3uPoW3Bw+yGt0 1311016964 Received: from localhost (56.243.9.46.customer.cdi.no [46.9.243.56]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 07CE8403E33; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 15:22:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 150B62020C; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 21:22:43 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 21:22:43 +0200 From: Bron Gondwana To: Randall Gellens Message-ID: <20110718192243.GA13165@brong.net> References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718183429.GA5192@brong.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: brong.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 19:22:47 -0000 On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 12:02:10PM -0700, Randall Gellens wrote: > Solutions which seem to work but don't handle anything except the > most obvious case can be dangerous. For a while it was common for > people to use fetchmail to retrieve mail via POP and then relay it > via SMTP. This is one of those solutions that seems to work but > because it only has access to the data (the envelope being gone) can > result in unpleasant problems. Sure. Except if you can optimise the most obvious case you can actually improve life for most users, most of the time. I'm not proposing anything radical like "discard SMTP submission". I'm just saying that if all you want to do is store a message to your sent folder and have it dropped into a deliver queue, then making it too complex to implement will be worse than making it simple. Bron. From mrc+ietf@panda.com Mon Jul 18 12:23:24 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97C4E21F8A66 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:23:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FnYwyGGfcM9j for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Panda.COM (panda.com [206.124.149.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C90CF21F8A4E for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Panda.COM ([192.107.14.50]) with ESMTP via TCP; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:23:18 -0700 X-MailFrom: mrc+ietf@panda.com Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:23:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Arnt Gulbrandsen In-Reply-To: <4E24845D.7020600@gulbrandsen.priv.no> Message-ID: References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> <4E24845D.7020600@gulbrandsen.priv.no> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 19:23:24 -0000 On Mon, 18 Jul 2011, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > Write draft-gondwana-imap-send, make it cover 99%, submit it for > publication without support for all the corner cases. That way, we can point to the document whenever anyone in the future brings up this bad idea...along with the fact that nobody implements it and why. I-Ds and RFCs are littered with such worthless documents. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. From jkt@flaska.net Mon Jul 18 15:34:59 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C2B21F8880 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 15:34:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vqG7x7qF1eJr for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 15:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from serv132.fzu.cz (serv132.fzu.cz [147.231.26.132]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECD5421F87ED for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 15:34:54 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgMGAMKzJE6T5xpZgWdsb2JhbABThEmUAI8BFAEBFiYliH6yXJEchS2BDwSNcIR2hQGLVw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,224,1309730400"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="1464603" Received: from freja.fzu.cz ([147.231.26.89]) by serv147.fzu.cz with ESMTP; 19 Jul 2011 00:34:51 +0200 Received: from [192.168.1.250] (unknown [94.230.152.5]) by freja.fzu.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B046E3DA8C for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 00:34:51 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E24B521.9010405@flaska.net> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 00:35:13 +0200 From: =?UTF-8?B?SmFuIEt1bmRyw6F0?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.12) Gecko/20101027 Thunderbird/3.1.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: imap5@ietf.org References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> <20110718190021.GA8329@brong.net> <4E248641.7010907@verizon.net> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig5E52B0E16DF6FAC378400B53" Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 22:34:59 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig5E52B0E16DF6FAC378400B53 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 07/18/11 21:19, Mark Crispin wrote: > On Mon, 18 Jul 2011, Joshua Cranmer wrote: >> On 7/18/2011 12:10 PM, Mark Crispin wrote: >>> On Mon, 18 Jul 2011, Bron Gondwana wrote: >>>> We're optimising the rare cases at the expense of making the >>>> common case easy. >>> bccs, address forwardings, and mailing lists are "rare cases"? >> And is this anything that couldn't be resolved with >> APPENDNSEND ? >=20 > That would certainly solve it as long as you duplicate all of SMTP and = its > states. >=20 > The problem is that you have to duplicate all of SMTP and its states. Hi Mark, I was wondering -- what is the use case that is not covered by the sample command Joshua proposed? What feature of the SMTP protocol should I look at in order to fully understand this? I haven't read the ESMTP specification carefully, so I'm just very vaguely familiar with a simple SMTP conversation, and not all of the extensions, hence this honest question. What feature of a MUA depends on these states? Cheers, Jan --=20 Trojita, a fast e-mail client -- http://trojita.flaska.net/ --------------enig5E52B0E16DF6FAC378400B53 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk4ktSEACgkQamXfqERyJRcWzgCeKHalfKkvN5n8qC6pYstGZEL9 40sAniSI2b7cZzE9PXrjSBUJVh96TZOp =pdZi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig5E52B0E16DF6FAC378400B53-- From gilles.lamiral@laposte.net Mon Jul 18 15:36:32 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE29B21F858A for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 15:36:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ygYHEkQg9FRi for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 15:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ks200821.kimsufi.com (ks200821.kimsufi.com [91.121.112.202]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59B9921F8587 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 15:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lamiral.info (lamiral.info [62.147.165.21]) by ks200821.kimsufi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6096B521925 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 00:36:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (petite.lamiral.info [127.0.0.1]) by lamiral.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id 925085FC276 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 00:36:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 00:36:12 +0200 From: Gilles LAMIRAL User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.18) Gecko/20110617 Thunderbird/3.1.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: imap5@ietf.org References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> In-Reply-To: <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 22:36:33 -0000 Hello, > Fact: lots of people want the ability to cache pretty much "the entire > mailbox state", and not have to download it all again. It's easy, just get enough header allowing unique identification of any message in a cache and then no matter folder names where messages are stored you have the entire whole account/mailboxes state. > to do anything else, there would have to be a "folder unique id" that the client could use to detect renames > Cyrus has one internally > but there's no way via IMAP to expose it > well > time for IMAP5? :-D Time to think about better email clients. > Lots of people don't like the idea of redownloading entire 84MB of > data on a folder rename. They're crying out for a mail protocol > that offers them this. People could cry for better client email software thinkers too. > Which is why we still have clients downloading 84MB of data when > someone renames a folder. Because it's rare enough that the > pain becomes a distant memory again next time they want to do it. > Or the just don't rename folders. Another way to solve this issue is - have just one INBOX - use IMAP flags keywords as a way to sort messages. No suffer for renaming folders this way, just flags renames, IMAP4 can do it easily and fast. In fact I wonder why IMAP Gmail didn't implement that, it's the first thing coming to mind. Instead the keyword-is-a-folder Gmail way is not economical with bandwidth using basic IMAP. > And NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY, enjoys configuring a separate SMTP > server at their ISP and doing the "will my provider support port > 587, or will port 25 be blocked for me" dance to get email to send. Do you want to send mail using your private mailbox hoping the postman will open it and know what job to do? Don't you confuse Post Office issues with personal mailbox issues? -- Au revoir, 09 51 84 42 42 Gilles Lamiral. France, Baulon (35580) 06 20 79 76 06 From randy@qualcomm.com Mon Jul 18 15:39:14 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EFC221F880C for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 15:39:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0VzBUQ5dViJa for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 15:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine02.qualcomm.com (wolverine02.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.251]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A885621F86A6 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 15:39:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=randy@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1311028753; x=1342564753; h=message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:date:to:from: subject:mime-version:content-type:x-random-sig-tag: x-originating-ip; z=Message-ID:=20 |In-Reply-To:=20 |References:=20<4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it>=0D=0A=20|X-Mailer:=20Eudora=20for =20Mac=20OS=20X|Date:=20Mon,=2018=20Jul=202011=2015:30:18 =20-0700|To:=20Bron=20Gondwana=20,=20< imap5@ietf.org>,=20Giovanni=20Panozzo=0D=0A=09|From:=20Randall=20Gellens=20|Subject:=20Re:=20[imap5]=20Where=20is=20IMAP5=20? |MIME-Version:=201.0|Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20char set=3D"us-ascii"=3B=20format=3Dflowed|X-Random-Sig-Tag: =201.0b28|X-Originating-IP:=20[172.30.39.5]; bh=BrhlFIAv0XOpnp5Rr+F3btq0LG2rernzhYY46K5mW6A=; b=lVzHcY+WK5OSSYHWB7WR5/aIt04cvbZIInQl8Sr5pvGvnJi0XOexgsAj YOEGg/KE99RNgFAW2cGsx+s49ZGnLHyXctLdyqZ28fxrIHYLJ/7Mci7ZA YvF6CEBUYLHwDRxciis6BlTuzjPJlv70mfe+pmkHFJyEXdrksHvmVr87F w=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5400,1158,6411"; a="104291382" Received: from ironmsg03-l.qualcomm.com ([172.30.48.18]) by wolverine02.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 18 Jul 2011 15:39:06 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,222,1309762800"; d="scan'208";a="50224589" Received: from nasanexhc07.na.qualcomm.com ([172.30.39.190]) by Ironmsg03-L.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 18 Jul 2011 15:39:06 -0700 Received: from loud.pensive.org (172.30.39.5) by qcmail1.qualcomm.com (172.30.39.190) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.0; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 15:39:05 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 15:30:18 -0700 To: Bron Gondwana , , Giovanni Panozzo From: Randall Gellens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 X-Originating-IP: [172.30.39.5] Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 22:39:14 -0000 At 1:57 PM +0200 7/18/11, Bron Gondwana wrote: > I notice gmail do pretty much the same, they don't care too much about > standards Someone made an interesting observation at a recent IETF: if email were being done today, we probably wouldn't have any standards. Instead, each service provider would publish their own APIs, and anyone wanting to do an interoperable client would implement each set. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- Chance that an American cannot name a single right protected by the First Amendment: 1 in 3. (Harper's Index) From brong@fastmail.fm Mon Jul 18 16:00:22 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08E5B21F877B for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 16:00:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B5knukHfjhig for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 16:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4.smtp.messagingengine.com (out4.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C59AF21F8762 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 16:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.45]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 547FC20207; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 19:00:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend1.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.160]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 18 Jul 2011 19:00:17 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version:content-type:in-reply-to; s=smtpout; bh=X35kDi3inazsm8K5Y2FOoCudQGg=; b=OQcHt1i5nsMvhdT0nYU+X6IAD6wd1tb2OpBynEHKfQmXvCaesee4FOHCgwpvcLvAV0eanvIw1iFsYEb3d/kPeVnRPKAW1CNH8XLFKpvDg3lm63mmYNWp6aFkFxuY1S9nDxRGQqeCD/rU757jdScMbCN/ivH22o96pfwg8/S3ZUs= X-Sasl-enc: VnJuzqVbZW1iD96Gw9HDx0Ffy5lXS9n27sNenR4z2TU9 1311030017 Received: from localhost (56.243.9.46.customer.cdi.no [46.9.243.56]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 12ABE4041C5; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 19:00:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2537520810; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 01:00:16 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 01:00:16 +0200 From: Bron Gondwana To: Randall Gellens Message-ID: <20110718230016.GA27544@brong.net> References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: brong.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 23:00:22 -0000 On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 03:30:18PM -0700, Randall Gellens wrote: > At 1:57 PM +0200 7/18/11, Bron Gondwana wrote: > > > I notice gmail do pretty much the same, they don't care too much about > > standards > > Someone made an interesting observation at a recent IETF: if email > were being done today, we probably wouldn't have any standards. > Instead, each service provider would publish their own APIs, and > anyone wanting to do an interoperable client would implement each > set. Yep. That would kinda suck. Then again, that's what we do anyway. Maybe not at the low level, but if you aren't publishing a whole pile of DNS records and adding signature headers and providing spam feedback loops, then you're struggling to interoperate anyway. I haven't been to any of the conferences and I haven't been as involved in the standardisation world as I should have been. Maybe I should start doing that. On the flip side to that argument, if email was being built by the process this list has taken with IMAP5, we'd all be working on something like GNU/HURD, while upstart Linux just went ahead and solved people's problems. It's a balance and there are always groups pulling from both sides. I doubt gmail did XLIST because they wanted to write something new - they did it because there was nobody solving the problem, and they needed it solved now. Not one day, when it had been bikeshedded to death in committee. And it was needed enough that others jumped on board. Now it's got a standard and the world is migrating towards the standard (SPECIAL-USE). I have my doubts that SPECIAL-USE would have happened if Google hadn't just gone ahead and started implementing. Bron. From cking@mumbo.ca Mon Jul 18 16:15:38 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45B9C21F8A4E for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 16:15:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ph6X9sPnka6m for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 16:15:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monet.mumbo.ca (monet.mumbo.ca [204.109.63.66]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5E8921F89CC for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 16:15:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.15] (S010624ab81b723c3.gv.shawcable.net [24.69.183.75]) by monet.mumbo.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 0573F4508B; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 16:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1244.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Curtis King In-Reply-To: <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 16:15:43 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0C892667-FC78-4E5C-AE8C-D3EF6708639E@mumbo.ca> References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> To: Gilles LAMIRAL X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1244.3) Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 23:15:38 -0000 On 2011-07-18, at 3:36 PM, Gilles LAMIRAL wrote: > Time to think about better email clients. I think there already are better email clients and they keep on = improving thanks to mobile devices. These clients are from major vendors = as well. I quick check of the extensions being used on my server, = UIDPLUS LITERAL+ UNSELECT NAMESPACE ESEARCH IDLE QRESYNC = COMPRESS=3DDEFLATE. Looking at the protocol the clients are being very smart to reduce the = amount of data being sent over the network. ck From mrc+ietf@panda.com Mon Jul 18 17:28:14 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ACAB21F8794 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 17:28:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id orR6g4m341gc for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 17:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Panda.COM (panda.com [206.124.149.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B2EB21F8890 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 17:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Panda.COM ([192.107.14.50]) with ESMTP via TCP; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 17:28:03 -0700 X-MailFrom: mrc+ietf@panda.com Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 17:27:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Gilles LAMIRAL In-Reply-To: <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> Message-ID: References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 00:28:14 -0000 On Tue, 19 Jul 2011, Gilles LAMIRAL wrote: > Time to think about better email clients. > People could cry for better client email software thinkers too. This has been my lament for many years, and it has come to a head with a miserable state of email clients for Android. The default email client is completely unusable; an alternative called K-9 Mail is semi-usable. [Don't get me started on the reptile excrement called Mail.app on iOS.] These programs betray both "cookbook" programming and the inability to envision heavy-duty mail volume. On the other hand, they do a great job in not deleting messages even when you ask them to do so; perhaps this is a law enforcement requirement. Sadly, there is no market feasibility to make a mobile device client that doesn't suck. The development cost to do mobile device email right is around US $1 million; and the market isn't there to recover the development costs. Nor are email clients the make/break app for a particular mobile device. Oh, it was for RIM, years ago; but RIM got complacent and is heading down the toilet. > Another way to solve this issue is > - have just one INBOX > - use IMAP flags keywords as a way to sort messages. This is, in effect, what Gmail does; but it doesn't expose it that way to IMAP. > In fact I wonder why IMAP Gmail didn't implement that, it's the > first thing coming to mind. Instead the keyword-is-a-folder Gmail > way is not economical with bandwidth using basic IMAP. The answer for why they did that is simple; doing it this way fools Outlook into a user view that is somewhat like the Gmail view. As far as Google is concerned, Outlook is the only IMAP client that matters. Never mind that Outlook is first and foremost an Exchange client. Gmail's behavior confuses the hell out of an IMAP client that follows the specification; but that whole point is to confuse (in desirable ways) a client that does not follow the specification. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. From mrc+ietf@panda.com Mon Jul 18 17:54:13 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7788421F8752 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 17:54:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.374 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.374 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XhvBmLDCwWVK for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 17:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Panda.COM (panda.com [206.124.149.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B366121F86C4 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 17:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Panda.COM ([192.107.14.50]) with ESMTP via TCP; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 17:54:05 -0700 X-MailFrom: mrc+ietf@panda.com Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 17:54:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: =?UTF-8?Q?Jan_Kundr=C3=A1t?= In-Reply-To: <4E24B521.9010405@flaska.net> Message-ID: References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> <20110718190021.GA8329@brong.net> <4E248641.7010907@verizon.net> <4E24B521.9010405@flaska.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-1058105513-1311036176=:73281" Content-ID: Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 00:54:13 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-1058105513-1311036176=:73281 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=UTF-8; FORMAT=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Content-ID: On Tue, 19 Jul 2011, Jan Kundrát wrote: > Hi Mark, I was wondering -- what is the use case that is not covered by > the sample command Joshua proposed? What feature of the SMTP protocol > should I look at in order to fully understand this? It's not one single feature; it's the entire infrastructure formed by SMTP, its extensions, and its agents. One important aspect, that isn't in the protocol at all, is message injection and the policy related to it. The moment you have another agent that can inject, you either have to duplicate the policy (with the risks that go along with that) or make the agent proxy to SMTP (with all the subtle interactions that occurs when a proxy crosses protocol boundaries). Pay close attention to how error conditions percolate, especially on the proxy/protocol boundaries. It's easy/tempting to say "it doesn't matter". We in the commercial email software world sometimes encourage this thinking among the free software guys. Our customers pay us large(!!) sums of money because we say that it matters. Good luck. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. --0-1058105513-1311036176=:73281-- From dave@cridland.net Tue Jul 19 00:49:31 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B64B21F8784 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 00:49:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C2SA15RMXpQt for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 00:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net (peirce.dave.cridland.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:882:2e0:81ff:fe29:d16a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBEFA21F8788 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 00:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (peirce.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) by peirce.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A1871168087; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:49:23 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at peirce.dave.cridland.net Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (peirce.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wZx40iXm+dlB; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:49:15 +0100 (BST) Received: from puncture (puncture.dave.cridland.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:882:221:85ff:fe3f:1696]) by peirce.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id CD79B1168067; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:49:15 +0100 (BST) References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> In-Reply-To: <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <9031.1311061755.838313@puncture> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:49:15 +0100 From: Dave Cridland To: Bron Gondwana , "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP\." , Tony Finch Content-Type: text/plain; delsp="yes"; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 07:49:31 -0000 On Mon Jul 18 19:45:02 2011, Bron Gondwana wrote: > I'm not interested in solving all the world's theoretical problems, > I'm > interested in solving the "this message needs to go into the user's > sent > folder and also be sent to the receipients named in the headers" > problem. > In the simplest possible way. Simple enough that there's a high > probability of clients and servers actually implementing it, because > it costs them so little and gains them so much. As a data point, the whole BURL thing has been implemented multiple times now. As someone who implemented it, I find it unexciting and slower in the general case (like sending this message), but very *very* handy in the case where I'm forwarding very large attachments. Now, could this be all implemented as an APPEND (or similar) extension? Sure. You wouldn't want to do it as append, actually, you'd want a new SUBMIT command, for a whole bunch of reasons. The core problem you'd run into is that you've introduced an architectural shift. For every facility offered by the MHS relating to submission, you need to potentially do it twice. The only solution I see is to make the IMAP[45] command such a thing wrapper around ESMTP/Submission that it offers no clear benefit, except for the ability to avoid BURL/GENURLAUTH. I think it'd be pretty ugly, but it *is* possible. Now, you absolutely could just solve the minimal case, but that also has the effect of closing the door on all future development, so I'm less than convinced that's a workable idea, either. The trick is *not* covering 100% of the existing submission cases; the trick is including sufficient extensibility to make 100% parity possible. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@dave.cridland.net - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade From dave@cridland.net Tue Jul 19 01:16:40 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EBDD21F85A0 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 01:16:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pVe1XnZajAGh for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 01:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net (peirce.dave.cridland.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:882:2e0:81ff:fe29:d16a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DB7521F8541 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 01:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (peirce.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) by peirce.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28E861168087; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 09:16:34 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at peirce.dave.cridland.net Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (peirce.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BZscZZPmEf8S; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 09:16:31 +0100 (BST) Received: from puncture (puncture.dave.cridland.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:882:221:85ff:fe3f:1696]) by peirce.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 988AB1168067; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 09:16:31 +0100 (BST) References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> <0C892667-FC78-4E5C-AE8C-D3EF6708639E@mumbo.ca> In-Reply-To: <0C892667-FC78-4E5C-AE8C-D3EF6708639E@mumbo.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <9031.1311063391.613626@puncture> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 09:16:31 +0100 From: Dave Cridland To: Curtis King , "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP\." , Gilles LAMIRAL Content-Type: text/plain; delsp="yes"; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:16:40 -0000 On Tue Jul 19 00:15:43 2011, Curtis King wrote: > > On 2011-07-18, at 3:36 PM, Gilles LAMIRAL wrote: > > > Time to think about better email clients. > > I think there already are better email clients and they keep on > improving thanks to mobile devices. These clients are from major > vendors as well. I quick check of the extensions being used on my > server, UIDPLUS LITERAL+ UNSELECT NAMESPACE ESEARCH IDLE QRESYNC > COMPRESS=DEFLATE. Absolutely - you're referring to Apple, I think, but there's also Nokia's sponsored work on the Qt Mail Foundation classes which implement the trio as well. It's interesting that Android hasn't caught up yet, but I think that's in part due to lower software reusability on that platform. This is what spelt the death-knell for Symbian, so it'll be interesting to see what happens there. Of course, mere use of extensions isn't nearly as important as efficient use of IMAP, and - to drag us kicking and screaming back onto the topic - I think it'd be useful to examine why this hasn't happened before we decide that a SUBMIT command is the solution. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@dave.cridland.net - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade From jkt@flaska.net Tue Jul 19 01:21:55 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5434D21F86B3 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 01:21:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zvhJnO6R5d6P for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 01:21:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from serv132.fzu.cz (serv132.fzu.cz [147.231.26.132]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0575B21F86A2 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 01:21:50 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AmsFAEc+JU6T5xpZgWdsb2JhbABThEmTf48AFAEBFiYliH6zQ5ExhS2BDwSNcIR3hQOLVw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,227,1309730400"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="1466595" Received: from freja.fzu.cz ([147.231.26.89]) by serv147.fzu.cz with ESMTP; 19 Jul 2011 10:21:48 +0200 Received: from [192.168.1.250] (unknown [94.230.152.5]) by freja.fzu.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 308803DA8C for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 10:21:48 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E253EA9.1020902@flaska.net> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 10:22:01 +0200 From: =?UTF-8?B?SmFuIEt1bmRyw6F0?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.12) Gecko/20101027 Thunderbird/3.1.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: imap5@ietf.org References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> <20110718190021.GA8329@brong.net> <4E248641.7010907@verizon.net> <4E24B521.9010405@flaska.net> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigC41E4F9ACCD1ABE4286E7A78" Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:21:55 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigC41E4F9ACCD1ABE4286E7A78 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 07/19/11 02:54, Mark Crispin wrote: > It's not one single feature; it's the entire infrastructure formed by > SMTP, its extensions, and its agents. >=20 > One important aspect, that isn't in the protocol at all, is message > injection and the policy related to it. >=20 > The moment you have another agent that can inject, you either have to > duplicate the policy (with the risks that go along with that) or make t= he > agent proxy to SMTP (with all the subtle interactions that occurs when = a > proxy crosses protocol boundaries). Pay close attention to how error > conditions percolate, especially on the proxy/protocol boundaries. I have to confess I'm a bit lost here. I work as a Linux sysadmin, and each server we work on usually has a properly configured sendmail/postfix/whatever, if only for local submission. Each of these MTAs provide a command-line facility for queuing a message for submission (the traditional `sendmail -bm` interface), which puts the message into the MTA's spool and arranges for the final delivery. It works pretty well, provided your MTA is properly configured (and I guess that that's a reasonable, if new, assumption for an IMAP server). Therefore, it seems to me that simply adding a `UID DELIVER 123` command (valid in a selected state, expecting an UID of a message to be submited) would be very trivial, especially given that there's already a Sieve command for doing exactly that, as someone already mentioned. On the other hand, you and Dave both state that this is not going to fly. I do respect your experience, and am not trying to avoid my homework here, it's just that I simply don't see any reason why such a simple scheme won't work. So, could you please clarify what am I missing here? With kind regards, Jan --=20 Trojita, a fast e-mail client -- http://trojita.flaska.net/ --------------enigC41E4F9ACCD1ABE4286E7A78 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk4lPqkACgkQamXfqERyJRfy/QCeOnNlStlpoaE+X0nrLMG0B1v4 NxQAnRkyHk9ppxctanN7sV2KE2xyhDsO =uc+o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigC41E4F9ACCD1ABE4286E7A78-- From mrc+ietf@panda.com Tue Jul 19 01:49:07 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AEA821F8892 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 01:49:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.509 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.509 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.090, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jO4gQNwGRVFh for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 01:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Panda.COM (panda.com [206.124.149.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22E3421F87D9 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 01:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Panda.COM ([192.107.14.50]) with ESMTP via TCP; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 01:48:57 -0700 X-MailFrom: mrc+ietf@panda.com Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 01:48:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Dave Cridland In-Reply-To: <9031.1311063391.613626@puncture> Message-ID: References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> <0C892667-FC78-4E5C-AE8C-D3EF6708639E@mumbo.ca> <9031.1311063391.613626@puncture> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Cc: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:49:07 -0000 On Tue, 19 Jul 2011, Dave Cridland wrote: > Absolutely - you're referring to Apple Apple's iOS client is vulnerable to server differences in extensions, to the point that it does not work reasonably with servers that implement extensions in ways that it does not expect. I am told that Apple will remove their use of at least one of these extensions for this reason. > Of course, mere use of extensions isn't nearly as important as > efficient use of IMAP, and - to drag us kicking and screaming back > onto the topic - I think it'd be useful to examine why this hasn't > happened before we decide that a SUBMIT command is the solution. The general problem with extensions is that the interoperability support matrix is much more complex. This is a fairly widespread problem, and leads to the "it works with every other client, therefore your client is broken" situation. This even happens with the IMAP base specification [*], which has an extremely stern compliance doctrine where you can unambiguously say "A is right and B is wrong". Most extensions lack this stern doctrine, and thus have multiple possible compliant implementations that do not interact. [*] Case in point: I have had to argue with a server vendor that mis-implemented ENVELOPE and claimed that resulting client behavior was a client bug and not a bug in the server. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. From dave@cridland.net Tue Jul 19 02:25:20 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EAE321F88A1 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 02:25:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UIky3h7DegJ7 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 02:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net (peirce.dave.cridland.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:882:2e0:81ff:fe29:d16a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79DFF21F88A0 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 02:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (peirce.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) by peirce.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE9371168087; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 10:25:05 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at peirce.dave.cridland.net Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (peirce.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BOJXePGyBhbx; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 10:24:57 +0100 (BST) Received: from puncture (puncture.dave.cridland.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:882:221:85ff:fe3f:1696]) by peirce.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 200E51168067; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 10:24:57 +0100 (BST) References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> <20110718190021.GA8329@brong.net> <4E248641.7010907@verizon.net> <4E24B521.9010405@flaska.net> <4E253EA9.1020902@flaska.net> In-Reply-To: <4E253EA9.1020902@flaska.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <9031.1311067497.129613@puncture> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 10:24:57 +0100 From: Dave Cridland To: =?UTF-8?B?SmFuIEt1bmRyw6F0?= , "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP\." Content-Type: text/plain; delsp="yes"; charset="iso-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 09:25:20 -0000 On Tue Jul 19 09:22:01 2011, Jan Kundrát wrote: > On the other hand, you and Dave both state that this is not going to > fly. I do respect your experience, and am not trying to avoid my > homework here, it's just that I simply don't see any reason why > such a > simple scheme won't work. So, could you please clarify what am I > missing > here? For the *simple* case, it'll fly: UID SUBMIT 123 It's not hard to cope with BCC and other cases of needing an envelope, although that's not at first obviously needed, as you saw: UID SUBMIT (FROM dave@cridland.net) (TO jkt@flaska.net) 123 Unfortunately, that's not yet "done". There's considerations like DSNs, and so on. Now one option which I think Bron suggested is that the SUBMIT command deliberately, by design, only handles the simple cases and no more. That leaves you safely in the field of hand-waving and passing the buck, but in practical terms it means that a client implementer wanting to implement advanced features still uses Submission, whereas implementers who don't care, don't. The trouble is that produces a two-tier arrangement, and that's never been successful in the past - if it's successful, then the more complex path will die. You may cheer, but it means those features have to go somewhere, and they'll end up shoe-horned into the SUBMIT command, putting that back to square one. Architecturally, there is a global MHS, which is ESMTP. Currently, there's no architectural break between submission and transmission, but a SUBMIT command injects such a break, and the model of the global MHS needs to be accessible through such a command. This is hard enough now, when we have to consider exposure of DSNs, etc, but it's even harder if we wanted to create, say, a recall function, since we now have to create protocols in two places, instead of one. X.400 works this way, incidentally, and does so fine - but it was designed from the ground up to support this mode. An X.400 MUA can submit mail either via the MHS protocol (P1, I think) or via the store protocol (P7 - again, I think). But the models are kept very strongly aligned - I think it's even the same PDUs involved. I have not said that any of this is not possible. I *am* saying that a quick hack will have knock on issues, and ultimately these issues will need to be dealt with. It's my opinion - and I think you'll see if you read closely that it's the same as that of Mark, Randy, and Tony - that the level of work required to do this probably exceeds the benefit. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@dave.cridland.net - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade From mrc+ietf@panda.com Tue Jul 19 02:51:05 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE8C621F86BB for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 02:51:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.524 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.524 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yOhWWZNaspgl for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 02:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Panda.COM (panda.com [206.124.149.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6176321F86BA for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 02:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Panda.COM ([192.107.14.50]) with ESMTP via TCP; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 02:50:39 -0700 X-MailFrom: mrc+ietf@panda.com Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 02:50:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Dave Cridland In-Reply-To: <9031.1311067497.129613@puncture> Message-ID: References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> <20110718190021.GA8329@brong.net> <4E248641.7010907@verizon.net> <4E24B521.9010405@flaska.net> <4E253EA9.1020902@flaska.net> <9031.1311067497.129613@puncture> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Cc: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 09:51:05 -0000 Thank you Dave. Inline comments below. On Tue, 19 Jul 2011, Dave Cridland wrote: > For the *simple* case, it'll fly: Nominally, yes. However, this ignores the effect of Murphy's Law. Experience of those of us who lived through the 1970s, 1980s, and early 1990s, when there were many mail programs that behaved that way, indicates that Mr. Murphy enforces his law. > Unfortunately, that's not yet "done". There's considerations like DSNs, and > so on. DSNs are a Very Big Concern for some people who pay a lot of money to have them handles right. > The trouble is that produces a two-tier arrangement, and that's never been > successful in the past Read: "has always been disastrous". In cases where one tier is entrenched (and SMTP has 29 years of entrenchment), the other tier doesn't stand a chance. > It's my opinion - and I think you'll see if you read closely that it's the > same as that of Mark, Randy, and Tony - that the level of work required to do > this probably exceeds the benefit. Whenever I encounter simplistic "solutions" to very complex problems, I am reminded of Albert Ghiorso's review of the story of the "radioactive boy scout", in which he concludes "[Hahn] seemed to think that he had a new idea that no one had thought of, but that notion could only come about through ignorance...In the end, knowledge is needed, and that comes about, I have found, only through education, study, and lots of experience." -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. From giovanni@panozzo.it Tue Jul 19 04:17:15 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15E7A21F859F for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 04:17:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ia4OuGegH7Vv for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 04:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from do2.yuu.it (host166-204-149-62.serverdedicati.aruba.it [62.149.204.166]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A37721F8599 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 04:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.133.60] (89-96-248-173.ip14.fastwebnet.it [89.96.248.173]) by do2.yuu.it (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3CD742D06A4 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 13:17:13 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E2567B7.3070904@panozzo.it> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 13:17:11 +0200 From: Giovanni Panozzo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: imap5@ietf.org References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> <20110718190021.GA8329@brong.net> <4E248641.7010907@verizon.net> <4E24B521.9010405@flaska.net> <4E253EA9.1020902@flaska.net> <9031.1311067497.129613@puncture> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 11:17:15 -0000 After reading 24 hours of posts, I'm rather disconcerted. 1 year to not decide for "UID SUBMIT" is too much. How long will it take to decide to include features like calendar and contact sync ? And autoconfiguration via DNS/HTTP ? Yes, they are all features outside the current IMAP scope, and this will lead only to strong opposition in this ML. But the user, the sysadmin, the programmer, the market, they need and they want these features, now. Unfortunately there is an opponent, ActiveSync, which includes all. And now it's the winning one. IMAP is dying, I have read a lot of good ideas on this ML to let it survive. But I have read too much opposition too. Maybe a "fork" of IMAP protocol outside IETF will do the trick ? From filip.navara@gmail.com Tue Jul 19 05:07:33 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8349C21F8559 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 05:07:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tibhQme8c4wW for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 05:07:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qw0-f44.google.com (mail-qw0-f44.google.com [209.85.216.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5365E21F85DD for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 05:07:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qwc23 with SMTP id 23so3354506qwc.31 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 05:07:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=ZeprzWretLzROwUIcG1ik+BsIlpOxuC9Yk0gQprc4Dw=; b=bYK56aNXmDBKomW0pAT1d+HJD83kg9RvMG3EoOqxBJF14eQRwfFPaU/OJDhGLj3CCV eItDSA++N7wYeAL+HMV+9cY7skhYLHEBudbM91wrvPrMZ/mp1k6DnMvCfJiqgShta0r4 tSH7xMXCtt1LJrulmGfyxrCvB17KkuYpobpRI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.189.20 with SMTP id dc20mr1464118qcb.72.1311077248781; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 05:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.34.77 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 05:07:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4E2567B7.3070904@panozzo.it> References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> <20110718190021.GA8329@brong.net> <4E248641.7010907@verizon.net> <4E24B521.9010405@flaska.net> <4E253EA9.1020902@flaska.net> <9031.1311067497.129613@puncture> <4E2567B7.3070904@panozzo.it> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 14:07:28 +0200 Message-ID: From: Filip Navara To: Giovanni Panozzo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 12:07:33 -0000 On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 1:17 PM, Giovanni Panozzo wrote: > > After reading 24 hours of posts, I'm rather disconcerted. > > 1 year to not decide for "UID SUBMIT" is too much. How long will it take to > decide to include features like calendar and contact sync ? And > autoconfiguration via DNS/HTTP ? Yes, they are all features outside the > current IMAP scope, and this will lead only to strong opposition in this ML. All of these already exist. Calendar and contact synchronization is handled by CalDAV and CardDAV, which are much better suited for the job. They support time-range queries, free/busy lookup, scheduling and all related features. Autoconfiguration via DNS/HTTP exists as well. The DNS-based approach is described at http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6186. A mixed DNS/HTTP protocol is specified in Microsoft Exchange Autodiscover and it is compatible with IMAP and SMTP. We implement all of these in our product. > But the user, the sysadmin, the programmer, the market, they need and they > want these features, now. You're wrong on this one. The user wants fast and reliable email client (whatever that means), but they don't give a sh*t about the underlying technology. As long as user is concerned, BURL+GENURLAUTH is just as good as UID SUBMIT. Some programmers may prefer UID SUBMIT, but its too litte, too late. Even if you covered 99% of the use-cases you'd still have to convince the programmers to implement it and test it. Implementing a generic email client is already hard as it is. Adding another extension that may be supported by few servers is usually not worthwhile. The ones who care already implemented BURL+GENURLAUTH despite the fact that it is clumsy. Also, however good you make the specification there will always be implementation quirks and we, as client program writers, have to deal with these quirks. Many vendors don't care about bugs in their IMAP implementation and we have to workaround them in various ways. It is problematic to explain to the user that something is broken on the server if it works with Microsoft Outlook or Mozilla Thunderbird. > Unfortunately there is an opponent, ActiveSync, which includes all. And now > it's the winning one. > > IMAP is dying, I have read a lot of good ideas on this ML to let it survive. > But I have read too much opposition too. > > Maybe a "fork" of IMAP protocol outside IETF will do the trick ? Forking a dying project never solves anything. Many people tried to fork or redo IMAP over the years and it never gained adoption. Best regards, Filip Navara From Pidgeot18@verizon.net Tue Jul 19 10:05:25 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A7B821F8599 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 10:05:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e96cXtQDy2JB for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 10:05:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vms173019pub.verizon.net (vms173019pub.verizon.net [206.46.173.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F159421F8581 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 10:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.250.3.235] ([unknown] [63.245.220.240]) by vms173019.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.02 32bit (built Apr 16 2009)) with ESMTPA id <0LOL00DCJBGOM830@vms173019.mailsrvcs.net> for imap5@ietf.org; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 12:05:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-id: <4E25B947.9050904@verizon.net> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 10:05:11 -0700 From: Joshua Cranmer User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.18) Gecko/20110616 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.11 MIME-version: 1.0 To: imap5@ietf.org References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> <20110718190021.GA8329@brong.net> <4E248641.7010907@verizon.net> <4E24B521.9010405@flaska.net> <4E253EA9.1020902@flaska.net> <9031.1311067497.129613@puncture> In-reply-to: Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 17:05:25 -0000 On 7/19/2011 2:50 AM, Mark Crispin wrote: > Thank you Dave. Inline comments below. > > On Tue, 19 Jul 2011, Dave Cridland wrote: >> For the *simple* case, it'll fly: > > Nominally, yes. However, this ignores the effect of Murphy's Law. > > Experience of those of us who lived through the 1970s, 1980s, and early > 1990s, when there were many mail programs that behaved that way, > indicates > that Mr. Murphy enforces his law. > >> Unfortunately, that's not yet "done". There's considerations like >> DSNs, and >> so on. > > DSNs are a Very Big Concern for some people who pay a lot of money to > have > them handles right. Hmm, I had thought that DSN was merely embedded into the message envelope, although closer inspection has informed that this thought was wrong. I'll be honest that I don't care all that much about "only post the message once when sending" ... -- Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth From martin.konold@erfrakon.de Mon Jul 18 23:29:51 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86E7521F86A2 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 23:29:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RkdI0268G2Lv for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 23:29:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.erfrakon.de (mail.erfrakon.de [85.10.209.187]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09D0221F852E for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 23:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.erfrakon.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3762C428077 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:29:44 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at erfrakon.de Received: from mail.erfrakon.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (web.erfrakon.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JTt49fRHaZeE for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:29:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.hq.erfrakon.de (mail.hq.erfrakon.de [10.0.0.10]) by mail.erfrakon.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id E28FE428058 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:29:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.hq.erfrakon.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96A82A0A1DE86 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:29:42 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at erfrakon.de Received: from mail.hq.erfrakon.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.hq.erfrakon.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 594f1ZYxyARp for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:29:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.hq.erfrakon.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FBA9A0BEF3A6 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:29:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mini01.localnet (martinovpn.hq.erfrakon.de [172.17.1.21]) (Authenticated sender: mk) by mail.hq.erfrakon.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8532EA0A1DE86 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:29:40 +0200 (CEST) From: Martin Konold Organization: Erfrakon Partnerschaftsgesellschaft To: imap5@ietf.org Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:29:35 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.7 (Linux/2.6.37.6-0.5-desktop; KDE/4.6.5; i686; ; ) References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718183429.GA5192@brong.net> In-Reply-To: <20110718183429.GA5192@brong.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <201107190829.36728.martin.konold@erfrakon.de> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 10:16:19 -0700 Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 06:29:51 -0000 On Montag, 18. Juli 2011 20:34:29 Bron Gondwana wrote: Hi Bron, I wish more people would be as pragmatic as you. (Yes I am disappointed whe= re=20 LEMONADE went. When I back then proposed an improved IMAP extension for IMA= P5 =20 I was directed at LEMONADE instead) > I'm tempted to implement this > and write patches for a couple of clients. It's probably about 50 lines > of code in Cyrus (including error checking) to make this work. Set up > the append, invoke deliver with the path to the file on disk, and either > abort the append or complete depending on the result of the deliver > command. Add a few lines of config file to allow you to specify an > alternative. No, scratch that - there's already an external deliver > command used for sieve: I am willing to also work on this on the server side (e.g. putting your cyr= us=20 patches in Kolab) and on the client side (initially KONSEC Konnektor for=20 Outlook later maybe adding support to KDE Kontact/Kmail). What about the following approach: =2D Extend IMAP APPEND to allow also for delivery via SMTP. =2D APPEND to a special mailbox "outbox". (The name of this special folder = shall=20 not really matter but its special role is controlled using a folder=20 annotation) =2D the IMAP server takes care about sending the mail (either synchronously= (*)=20 while the APPEND happens or asynchronously,) Lets call this process spooler. =2D The spooler then moves the message from "outbox" to "sent-mail". Again = the=20 name of the folder is arbitrary but the role is controlled by a folder=20 annotation. (*) Synchronous mode seems attractive for immediate feedback to the user of= =20 the client. I think it is useful for simple checks like correct syntax of s= mtp=20 addresses. On the other hand asynchronous error handling is required anyway= =20 due to the asynchronous nature of SMTP.=20 =2D-=20 =2D- =20 e r f r a k o n Erlewein, Frank, Konold & Partner - Beratende Ingenieure und Physiker Sitz: Adolfstra=DFe 23, 70469 Stuttgart, Partnerschaftsregister Stuttgart P= R 126 http://www.erfrakon.com/ From martin.konold@erfrakon.de Mon Jul 18 23:46:59 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E8CE21F85C7 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 23:46:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.091 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.091 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.157, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 901nfePUMmh2 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 23:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.erfrakon.de (mail.erfrakon.de [85.10.209.187]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B164021F84F9 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2011 23:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.erfrakon.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 090AE428077 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:46:54 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at erfrakon.de Received: from mail.erfrakon.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (web.erfrakon.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XjIQOOdC+9GO for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:46:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail.hq.erfrakon.de (mail.hq.erfrakon.de [10.0.0.10]) by mail.erfrakon.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2F70428058 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:46:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.hq.erfrakon.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEAA6A0A1DE86 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:46:52 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at erfrakon.de Received: from mail.hq.erfrakon.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.hq.erfrakon.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WEZd0PitR5Yf for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:46:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.hq.erfrakon.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39FD0A0BEF3A6 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:46:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mini01.localnet (martinovpn.hq.erfrakon.de [172.17.1.21]) (Authenticated sender: mk) by mail.hq.erfrakon.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB6BEA0A1DE86 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:46:51 +0200 (CEST) From: Martin Konold Organization: Erfrakon Partnerschaftsgesellschaft To: imap5@ietf.org Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:46:47 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.7 (Linux/2.6.37.6-0.5-desktop; KDE/4.6.5; i686; ; ) References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <4E24845D.7020600@gulbrandsen.priv.no> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <201107190846.48920.martin.konold@erfrakon.de> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 10:16:19 -0700 Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 06:46:59 -0000 On Montag, 18. Juli 2011 21:23:17 Mark Crispin wrote: Hi, > > Write draft-gondwana-imap-send, make it cover 99%, submit it for > > publication without support for all the corner cases. >=20 > That way, we can point to the document whenever anyone in the future > brings up this bad idea...along with the fact that nobody implements it > and why. >=20 > I-Ds and RFCs are littered with such worthless documents. Why are you shooting down contributions by experienced people actually doin= g=20 real work and delivering working solutions to millions of people? IMHO I would like to see such a draft and I am willing to provide feedback= =20 improvements and in case I am convinced implementations for clients and=20 servers. It is a good tradition to look at RFCs after the drafts have been implement= ed=20 by at least two parties and tested in real world environments. Yours, =2D- martin =2D-=20 =2D- =20 e r f r a k o n Erlewein, Frank, Konold & Partner - Beratende Ingenieure und Physiker Sitz: Adolfstra=DFe 23, 70469 Stuttgart, Partnerschaftsregister Stuttgart P= R 126 http://www.erfrakon.com/ From randy@qualcomm.com Tue Jul 19 12:02:23 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3D3A11E8092 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 12:02:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sEQCjMsiwZ9n for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 12:02:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine01.qualcomm.com (wolverine01.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.254]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65ADA11E8098 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 12:01:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=randy@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1311102093; x=1342638093; h=message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:date:to:from: subject:mime-version:content-type:x-random-sig-tag: x-originating-ip; z=Message-ID:=20 |In-Reply-To:=20<4E2567B7.3070904@panozzo.it>|References: =20<4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it>=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20<20110718184502. GB5192@brong.net>=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20<20110718190021.GA8 329@brong.net>=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20<4E248641.7010907@verizo n.net>=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20<4E24B521.9010405@flaska.net>=0D =0A=20=0D=0A=20<4E253EA9.1020902@flaska.net>=20<9031.131 1067497.129613@puncture>=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20<4E2567B7.3070 904@panozzo.it>|X-Mailer:=20Eudora=20for=20Mac=20OS=20X |Date:=20Tue,=2019=20Jul=202011=2011:58:05=20-0700|To:=20 Giovanni=20Panozzo=20,=20|From:=20Randall=20Gellens=20 |Subject:=20Re:=20[imap5]=20Where=20is=20IMAP5=20? |MIME-Version:=201.0|Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20char set=3D"us-ascii"=3B=20format=3Dflowed|X-Random-Sig-Tag: =201.0b28|X-Originating-IP:=20[172.30.48.1]; bh=ZASDUglUryctzerLtwka/0/QkLSuZG6YXfvjJSn60Dc=; b=oUtEenJf6w4hqZYVv4It8pPfnETT8QubSrP8mmbcg6iV9zsmeeNIMjhR 9NB+7BkUTRk+NM0Ny7ru4f1dh5zIuRzVOCQDjmPbxzmCSmeZgd5K5YITr DlLf0FzNQ1cgcPFRfqETbNG1YGk3d6JMBZv3BW76e1p+9EozEV+PrD3xN Y=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5400,1158,6412"; a="104690086" Received: from ironmsg03-r.qualcomm.com ([172.30.46.17]) by wolverine01.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 19 Jul 2011 12:01:17 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,228,1309762800"; d="scan'208";a="90973450" Received: from nasanexhc05.na.qualcomm.com ([172.30.48.2]) by Ironmsg03-R.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 19 Jul 2011 12:01:17 -0700 Received: from loud.pensive.org (172.30.48.1) by qcmail1.qualcomm.com (172.30.48.2) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.0; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 12:01:17 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4E2567B7.3070904@panozzo.it> References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> <20110718190021.GA8329@brong.net> <4E248641.7010907@verizon.net> <4E24B521.9010405@flaska.net> <4E253EA9.1020902@flaska.net> <9031.1311067497.129613@puncture> <4E2567B7.3070904@panozzo.it> X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 11:58:05 -0700 To: Giovanni Panozzo , From: Randall Gellens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 X-Originating-IP: [172.30.48.1] Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 19:02:23 -0000 At 1:17 PM +0200 7/19/11, Giovanni Panozzo wrote: > And autoconfiguration via DNS/HTTP ? Does anyone remember ACAP? Or IMSP? -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- Men and nations may sometimes act rationally when all other possibilities have been exhausted. From mrc+ietf@panda.com Tue Jul 19 12:41:51 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2034311E8092 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 12:41:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.535 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.535 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.064, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hyvjXcndiVME for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 12:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Panda.COM (panda.com [206.124.149.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C77CC11E807F for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 12:41:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Panda.COM ([192.107.14.50]) with ESMTP via TCP; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 12:41:42 -0700 X-MailFrom: mrc+ietf@panda.com Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 12:41:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Giovanni Panozzo In-Reply-To: <4E2567B7.3070904@panozzo.it> Message-ID: References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> <20110718190021.GA8329@brong.net> <4E248641.7010907@verizon.net> <4E24B521.9010405@flaska.net> <4E253EA9.1020902@flaska.net> <9031.1311067497.129613@puncture> <4E2567B7.3070904@panozzo.it> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 19:41:51 -0000 On Tue, 19 Jul 2011, Giovanni Panozzo wrote: > Unfortunately there is an opponent, ActiveSync, which includes all. And > now it's the winning one. Have you done any real (as opposed to .NET cookbook) development in ActiveSync? To what extent do you use ActiveSync in a high-volume production environment? How do you address the problem that users don't see the complete message content because ActiveSync's tranformations removed it? Do you just pretend [as Microsoft does with @Live] that the content never existed? ActiveSync is in vogue because Exchange is in vogue; and will cease to be in vogue at the advent of the Next New Thing that replaces Exchange. Not long ago, Novell was all the rage; but now that Groupwise is being replaced by Exchange, few people care to spend much new development effort on Novell protocols and cries of "death to eDirectory!" are commonly heard. Surely you don't think for one minute that Apple, Google, and goodness knows who else implements ActiveSync because they like it? In case you haven't noticed, their ActiveSync client support is specifically to support Exchange servers; their native technologies for messaging, calendaring, contacts, etc. is not ActiveSync. Lately, I've been collecting stories of departments paying good money (some of which I have pocketed!) to establish their own open standards (IMAP, etc.) based email servers, because central IT went to ActiveSync and the result was far less usable and reliable. Even funnier are the press releases from central IT assuring their clients that they will presently iron out all the glitches in their ActiveSync services and the result will be just as good as what they had 15 years ago... > IMAP is dying Cretins have said since 1990 that "IMAP is dying". It hasn't happened yet. > Maybe a "fork" of IMAP protocol outside IETF will do the trick ? Be my guest. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. From mrc+ietf@panda.com Tue Jul 19 13:16:14 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8604421F8745 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 13:16:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.385 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.385 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.101, BAYES_00=-2.599, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A+jx7BjvAgor for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 13:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Panda.COM (panda.com [206.124.149.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3807321F8500 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 13:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Panda.COM ([192.107.14.50]) with ESMTP via TCP; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 13:15:42 -0700 X-MailFrom: mrc+ietf@panda.com Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 13:15:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Martin Konold In-Reply-To: <201107190846.48920.martin.konold@erfrakon.de> Message-ID: References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <4E24845D.7020600@gulbrandsen.priv.no> <201107190846.48920.martin.konold@erfrakon.de> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 20:16:14 -0000 On Tue, 19 Jul 2011, Martin Konold wrote: > Why are you shooting down contributions by experienced people actually doing > real work and delivering working solutions to millions of people? HAR HAR HAR. It is always enjoyable to laugh at the nonsensical ranting of a fool. I particularly liked "experienced people". That's ROTFL material. If they were experienced, they would know that their idea, far from being new and novel, is very old (at least 25 years in my memory), has been discussed to death many times, and has even been tried multiple times...with the result always being a trainwreck. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. From brong@fastmail.fm Tue Jul 19 15:43:30 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E6E021F8596 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:43:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gJ6rS31lgW9X for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD7DE21F8591 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.45]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6432A20BBA; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 18:43:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web3.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.213]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 19 Jul 2011 18:43:29 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=message-id:from:to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:references:subject:in-reply-to:date; s=smtpout; bh=eGFWWKVvv2jzog6deh63NrwUkys=; b=et54KZTyM723LU+6g4UZVU122+55HvP+Rh5IbrvsJ/bJnTBjS7FxLfPQs0nifi1b9FpTKOcoQEHyYTaPh7bPS5n9T2FBTKX683abWNZ/X4SL01ogv6t7R3SRIvy97GFYC5j4VhVdUHWxo7JwTYQhl6Adngn7Sp7yuWaX7c2/+UQ= Received: by web3.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 40490AC1B51; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 18:43:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1311115409.2210.2153659889@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Sasl-Enc: VU5s/fFy02L8gVwGfbvMhffJA00efYS4iiJwMupCDZPq 1311115409 From: "Bron Gondwana" To: "Mark Crispin" , "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net><20110718190021.GA8329@brong.net> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 00:43:29 +0200 Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 22:43:30 -0000 On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 12:10 -0700, "Mark Crispin" wrote: > On Mon, 18 Jul 2011, Bron Gondwana wrote: > > We're optimising the rare cases at the expense of making the > > common case easy. > > bccs, address forwardings, and mailing lists are "rare cases"? When you store the message via IMAP, the Bcc: header is intact. sendmail is perfectly capable of parsing it out and using it, at least the one that ships with postfix. Forwarding without rewriting the To: header is a rare case and not really a candidate for "store to IMAP sent folder". Mailing lists are fine, the 'To:' header will be the mailing list. -- Bron Gondwana brong@fastmail.fm From brong@fastmail.fm Tue Jul 19 15:48:01 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60EF75E8008 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:48:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9Q-p85Tio8f4 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 635DD5E8007 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.45]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B54020B4E; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 18:48:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web3.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.213]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 19 Jul 2011 18:48:00 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=message-id:from:to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:references:subject:in-reply-to:date; s=smtpout; bh=BIGLp6NK5KLgOHiZ1x7Ibq36CI4=; b=tj3A9i8Q7IP8WF/lXv90vh1lPK92clO3x8YcV+NrtC/fRXeIiNECN2sgeBwl954+Lc3JQx67cNT00Tl9NoAPRCKizn+9drmAu0EotM4M8d2mX6EcWaN2xhszOz880yGJo2a6hJk3SA82/UIlhmjdtyqzypmwl5+H+YpwvfqYoZw= Received: by web3.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id ED349AC1C21; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 18:47:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Sasl-Enc: oCvpvD03Qwv7mnW31wU4FVjxEHz88Xm156TfCAe7f2hT 1311115679 From: "Bron Gondwana" To: "Gilles LAMIRAL" , "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> In-Reply-To: <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 00:47:59 +0200 Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 22:48:01 -0000 On Tue, 19 Jul 2011 00:36 +0200, "Gilles LAMIRAL" wrote: > Do you want to send mail using your private mailbox hoping the postman > will open it and know what job to do? > > Don't you confuse Post Office issues with personal mailbox issues? God yes. I would love that to just work. Indeed, some places do that/have done that. They have a little flag you flip up to let the postie know to check the box, since otherwise they wouldn't if they had nothing to deliver. Luckily, computers aren't physical postmen, and so your analogy is pointless and crap. Things on computers don't have to mirror exactly the physical counterparts after which they were named. One of my co-workers has the poster "you wouldn't download a car" parodying the anti-piracy message on DVDs. The tag line is "fuck you, I would if I could". If I could use one configuration, one username, one password, one connection to do anything that would be great. Bron. -- Bron Gondwana brong@fastmail.fm From dave@cridland.net Tue Jul 19 15:51:26 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9919D5E8011 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:51:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.539 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.539 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WYxx1ucMSYsp for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net (peirce.dave.cridland.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:882:2e0:81ff:fe29:d16a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A734121F85B5 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (peirce.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) by peirce.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7FD41168087; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 23:51:13 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at peirce.dave.cridland.net Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (peirce.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CBIKgJwcwM7S; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 23:51:07 +0100 (BST) Received: from puncture (puncture.dave.cridland.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:882:221:85ff:fe3f:1696]) by peirce.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 5CC601168067; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 23:51:07 +0100 (BST) References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> <20110718190021.GA8329@brong.net> <4E248641.7010907@verizon.net> <4E24B521.9010405@flaska.net> <4E253EA9.1020902@flaska.net> <9031.1311067497.129613@puncture> <4E2567B7.3070904@panozzo.it> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <9031.1311115867.351881@puncture> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 23:51:07 +0100 From: Dave Cridland To: Randall Gellens , Giovanni Panozzo , "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP\." Content-Type: text/plain; delsp="yes"; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 22:51:26 -0000 On Tue Jul 19 19:58:05 2011, Randall Gellens wrote: > At 1:17 PM +0200 7/19/11, Giovanni Panozzo wrote: > >> And autoconfiguration via DNS/HTTP ? > > Does anyone remember ACAP? Or IMSP? *waves* -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@dave.cridland.net - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade From gilles.lamiral@laposte.net Tue Jul 19 19:05:07 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3666111E808B for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 19:05:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NfqnZkEyirNP for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 19:05:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ks200821.kimsufi.com (ks200821.kimsufi.com [91.121.112.202]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3953B11E80A6 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 19:05:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lamiral.info (lamiral.info [62.147.165.21]) by ks200821.kimsufi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D71B652193F for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 04:05:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (petite.lamiral.info [127.0.0.1]) by lamiral.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE6382440E0 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 04:04:51 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 04:04:51 +0200 From: Gilles LAMIRAL User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.18) Gecko/20110617 Thunderbird/3.1.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: imap5@ietf.org References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> <1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com> In-Reply-To: <1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:05:07 -0000 Hello, > If I could use one configuration, > one username, one password, one connection to do anything that would > be great. Easy: just use a well written webmail and forget everything else, the car is there too if you have imagination, just go where postmen are already nice to you. Breaking the current postmen/mailboxes model just to save bandwidth that is doubling every 6 months is intense thinking, congratulations! How it was when bandwidth was 33.6 kbps? already a no problem since the solution has been doubling bandwidth every 6 months. The other issue is that IMAP is not alone, there is POP to change too. 50 IMAP current server softwares implementations to be changed and learn them how to post locally while every email client software know currently how to post anywhere. How good it will be, you deserve a poster! We should merge all protocols into only one that will solve every past and future needs, how about 42@ietf.org? 42 == https? -- Au revoir, 09 51 84 42 42 Gilles Lamiral. France, Baulon (35580) 06 20 79 76 06 From brong@fastmail.fm Tue Jul 19 23:08:16 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DF1121F84ED for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 23:08:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p0qtKi-PrZwJ for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 23:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 697C521F8546 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 23:07:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.43]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78319209F0; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:07:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend2.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.161]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:07:39 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id :references:mime-version:content-type:in-reply-to; s=smtpout; bh=taKaF9eCBzw2NSwxnkYulT34WDg=; b=P3KfAoYvib/3+sl5zk2hUPvaihT1 +cokbj4TZz71dQ4pkfGS1zoODI6TKsx2YAOAlcUpUFGyVISyLLUEXpWfsL4+LN9p 4qOQd3dz5p5VO8HYC2ItK5dFdrAfg0xv37o490QE4ngt6o2cu1OOcYmaOYCK8rvn A3rMdEhK/PhWf80= X-Sasl-enc: p7t8373ch8dn9zBaD/d8J2MmrVbbb1geYgdmkDbcu+KR 1311142059 Received: from localhost (56.243.9.46.customer.cdi.no [46.9.243.56]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 14EE444F4F9; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:07:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1A3FA20350; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:07:38 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:07:38 +0200 From: Bron Gondwana To: Gilles LAMIRAL Message-ID: <20110720060738.GA6750@brong.net> References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> <1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> Organization: brong.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:08:16 -0000 On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 04:04:51AM +0200, Gilles LAMIRAL wrote: > Easy: just use a well written webmail and forget everything else, the car > is there too if you have imagination, just go where postmen are already > nice to you. That's nice is everyone has a car, sure. > Breaking the current postmen/mailboxes model just to save bandwidth that > is doubling every 6 months is intense thinking, congratulations! Here in Norway, many "post offices" are actually a counter at a grocery store. This means that you can access the full range of postal services until 11pm. Coming from Australia where the post offices kept bank hours, it's quite a cultural difference. It makes sense - here's somewhere that's already open and that has similar basic skills and money handling facilities available, why not use it. Sure in some ideologically pure world you wouldn't even have supermarkets - you would drive to the farmer's gate to buy milk, and then drive off to a butcher to get meat and a greengrocer for vegetables. Funnily enough, people like supermarkets where they can go do most of their jobs in one place. > How it was when bandwidth was 33.6 kbps? already a no problem since > the solution has been doubling bandwidth every 6 months. It was shit - it's still shit. I'm really surprised that nobody actually came up with a solution that wasn't so annoying to implement that nobody did it. > The other issue is that IMAP is not alone, there is POP to change too. Whatever. POP doesn't have any way to upload email, so it doesn't matter anywhere near as much for POP, because you're already not saving the email back to the server. You probably need a different solution there. > 50 IMAP current server softwares implementations to be changed and learn > them how to post locally while every email client software know currently > how to post anywhere. How good it will be, you deserve a poster! The saving will be purely bandwidth, and simplicity for those who are building both ends and hence can rely on the IMAP software having this facility. The point is - you don't have to use it, but there are benefits large enough to be worth using it. You can still use regular SMTP for delivery instead if you need anything more complex, or you don't want to make an IMAP append at the same time. But - in a crazily common case where you want to store an email to your sent folder and also send it, this can halve the bandwidth use and delay to the user. Sure they could use webmail instead, that's just a layer of middleware. You could also implement this as a piece of middleware that wrapped IMAP and SMTP in some custom XML protocol and sent that to the client. Hmm, I think we've already done that except we used JSON. It kinda sucks too. > We should merge all protocols into only one that will solve > every past and future needs, how about 42@ietf.org? > > 42 == https? Er, OK. Hi strawman. Perhaps we should merge every single shop into one giant Walmart. Except we don't. Specialist shops still exist for when you have specialist needs - or if you just have a few everyday basics to get and the supermarket stocks the things you need, you go to the supermarket and buy the whole lot in one go. I'm arguing for the the IMAP store to stock a basic delivery method. Bron. From filip.navara@gmail.com Tue Jul 19 23:17:13 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B772721F8A96 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 23:17:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TMkbqaQlTYeV for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 23:17:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f179.google.com (mail-qy0-f179.google.com [209.85.216.179]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AE3821F8A95 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 23:17:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qyk29 with SMTP id 29so3653902qyk.10 for ; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 23:17:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=d+/Al74XK0MThwpnxIeNYuc6YTIVM0Hgju9v7rFPMgM=; b=K8fG1/L6OlIuzlZMx/H7c8b5uaNo3A/oEhs/1ACJQfnowUWkcsku7/TcdexEepC8ea GqMbO4CEBmBvwU+6NMzD46SzEo6Litt7TIOltemNepVVB+3KOSSLQBaT2UpURLUc9cf2 T9EqCjuk8cHzys4tgNicTueUot1VdxBJn4EFU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.44.14 with SMTP id y14mr6758326qce.110.1311142631634; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 23:17:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.34.77 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Jul 2011 23:17:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9031.1311115867.351881@puncture> References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> <20110718190021.GA8329@brong.net> <4E248641.7010907@verizon.net> <4E24B521.9010405@flaska.net> <4E253EA9.1020902@flaska.net> <9031.1311067497.129613@puncture> <4E2567B7.3070904@panozzo.it> <9031.1311115867.351881@puncture> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:17:11 +0200 Message-ID: From: Filip Navara To: Dave Cridland Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Randall Gellens , "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:17:13 -0000 On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 12:51 AM, Dave Cridland wrote: > On Tue Jul 19 19:58:05 2011, Randall Gellens wrote: >> >> At 1:17 PM +0200 7/19/11, Giovanni Panozzo wrote: >> >>> =A0And autoconfiguration via DNS/HTTP ? >> >> Does anyone remember ACAP? =A0Or IMSP? > > > *waves* +1 From giovanni@panozzo.it Wed Jul 20 02:32:59 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EB9C21F86E0 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:32:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.286 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.286 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.061, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3FbjHw3fRxCy for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from do2.yuu.it (host166-204-149-62.serverdedicati.aruba.it [62.149.204.166]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA2E821F8586 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:32:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.98.212] (host213-176-static.106-82-b.business.telecomitalia.it [82.106.176.213]) by do2.yuu.it (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0FA4E2CF523 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 11:32:55 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E26A0C6.7060805@panozzo.it> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 11:32:54 +0200 From: Giovanni Panozzo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.18) Gecko/20110617 Thunderbird/3.1.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: imap5@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:32:59 -0000 Il 19/07/2011 14:07, Filip Navara ha scritto: > On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 1:17 PM, Giovanni Panozzo wrote: >> > All of these already exist. > Calendar and contact synchronization is handled by CalDAV and CardDAV, > which are much better suited for the job. They support time-range > queries, free/busy lookup, scheduling and all related features. I know: I'm using CalDAV to sync my brother's work calendar on his iPad with the one on Gmail. It works great to sync calendar. But I have no enterprise implementation of CalDAV, because the majority of my customers has or want Exchange + Blackberry Enterprise Server. My opinion is that having a single protocol/connection to access email, contacts and calendar will be a big benefit: - for client developers: they will avoid to write extra code to support a second protocol. Less connections to open, less connecion to monitor, less configuration dialog boxes to write to ask server address. Less SSL certificates to manage. Less protocols to sniff when debugging. - for server developers: IMAP servers already have good storage functionalities and good commands to access them. Why calendar and contacts related function (like search) can't be integrated in the code of cyrus of dovecot ? - for sysadmins: less configuration to do both at the client and the server side. > Autoconfiguration via DNS/HTTP exists as well. The DNS-based approach > is described at http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6186. A mixed DNS/HTTP > protocol is specified in Microsoft Exchange Autodiscover and it is > compatible with IMAP and SMTP. Can't see CalDAV or CardDav in RFC6186 :) The basic idea behind Microsoft Exchange autodiscover.xml is good. I mean "have the user only enter its email address, its password, and he will be able to access all the PIM information he needs: e-mail, calendar, contacts and whatever IMAP-nextgen will provide". But autodiscover.xml is complex and was born to solve M$ Exchange complexities. I would like to have something more IMAP related and a bit simpler. >> But the user, the sysadmin, the programmer, the market, they need and they >> want these features, now. > > You're wrong on this one. The user wants fast and reliable email > client (whatever that means), but they don't give a sh*t about the > underlying technology. As long as user is concerned, BURL+GENURLAUTH > is just as good as UID SUBMIT. You are right, the user only wants fast and reliable mail. What I really meant is: now configuring an IMAP+SMTP client is very hard (read: impossible) for the average user. Take an user with its brand new smartphone (my brother again, he is a dentist, not an IT man). He taps randomly on the phone until he reach the e-mail client program. If the client program only asks "just give me your email address and your passord", your client and your protocol will gain a new user. If your software still ask the user (my brother) "tell me your e-mail addres, your password, your imap server (uh ? what is it ?), whether it supports PLAIN login or CRAM-MD5, whether the Sent folder is called "Sent", "Sent items" or "Posta inviata" (the italian name), the user will shut your software down and never open it again. And... i forgot to mention namespace, folder separator, SSL selfisgned certs, SMTP server, caldav server, carddav server and related options. So in my opinion, the needs are - One autoconfiguration file or DNS SRV records, mandatory in the next version of IMAP. - User message submission (UID SUBMIT) must be part of IMAP. And maybe we should understand that user message submission (in IMAP) is different from server message submission (SMTP). Servers and user have different needs, so they deserve different protocols. Yes, I know, it will be hard because of DSN or other cross-protocol problems. But it's not impossible. To Gilles: my 3G bandwidth is still expensive. Small user error, like attaching a 70MB video to an email when abroad, can cost ten of euros or simply consume all montly traffic, leaving the user disconnected forever during its travel. (example: open K9 on android and attach a big video: your IMAP server will APPEND it correctly, then your smtp server will refuse it... you wasted traffic, a lot !). And, for those that says that bandwidth doubles every 6 months, I can say: yes, bandwidth raises, but also video files size raises and the price per byte of 3G drops VERY slowly compared to them. > Some programmers may prefer UID SUBMIT, but its too litte, too late. > Even if you covered 99% of the use-cases you'd still have to convince > the programmers to implement it and test it. Implementing a generic > email client is already hard as it is. Adding another extension that > may be supported by few servers is usually not worthwhile. The ones > who care already implemented BURL+GENURLAUTH despite the fact that it > is clumsy. Yes, too little and is very late. I can see only one possible solution: if IMAP5 will ever come to life, it will need a working implementation immedialtey available. This means: at least two mainstream servers and clients should implement it. We can't do it on proprietary software like M$ Exchange or Outlook, but maybe we can do it in cyrus, dovecot, K9, thunderbird... And to simplify the implementation of IMAP5 in these products, developers life must be as simpler as possible. This is why I don't see CalDAV, CardDAV as a good solution. Yes, they can be source of inspiration and their functionalities must be in IMAP5, but they are not a fast path to the market. And it's late ! >> Maybe a "fork" of IMAP protocol outside IETF will do the trick ? > > Forking a dying project never solves anything. Many people tried to > fork or redo IMAP over the years and it never gained adoption. There are successful forks and unsuccesful ones. Like in every other human project. But... don't be afraid: I have no experience, time or resources to fork such a big beast. I was just provoking :) Giovanni From tss@iki.fi Wed Jul 20 02:54:09 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 490BD21F888A for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:54:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J66QGXYSAfIC for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dovecot.org (dovecot.org [193.210.130.67]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A927921F87A4 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.10.2] (a88-112-255-76.elisa-laajakaista.fi [88.112.255.76]) by dovecot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D7AE1AE8796 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 12:54:09 +0300 (EEST) From: Timo Sirainen To: imap5@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <4E26A0C6.7060805@panozzo.it> References: <4E26A0C6.7060805@panozzo.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-15" Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 12:54:05 +0300 Message-ID: <1311155645.10421.1178.camel@hurina> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.32.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:54:09 -0000 On Wed, 2011-07-20 at 11:32 +0200, Giovanni Panozzo wrote: > - for server developers: IMAP servers already have good storage > functionalities and good commands to access them. Why calendar and > contacts related function (like search) can't be integrated in the code > of cyrus of dovecot ? Calendar functionality is very different from mail functionality. To implement it efficiently it couldn't just be bolted onto existing mail store, but rather use a whole new database design. So adding calendaring to IMAP would not help server developers. For me it would be easier (and cleaner and prettier) to build a whole new calendar server/binary than to plug it into the existing IMAP code. But I have to admit, I don't really like HTTP. I would have tried implementing CalDAV already if it wasn't for its dependency on HTTP.. From filip.navara@gmail.com Wed Jul 20 02:55:53 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5926921F88DD for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:55:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.149 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.149 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LJbhCg-Ok2tW for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qw0-f44.google.com (mail-qw0-f44.google.com [209.85.216.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CC1521F8892 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qwc23 with SMTP id 23so46093qwc.31 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:55:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=5ZBRz7m358P5TdR+nDinOGumhXIvEzOF5CCG8ETp7Js=; b=c3q3wY9vBPFaBSgTzpRdl3PT7knbBDXrGZr9kj547YQbXC1XMHS1quBRuKNeh4CnPL fFDFHvnDqRpAJCzxztgtd3SgZIgpQqkF8Vj8pSkMXEw1VV6HhBzP7G3FUuWtXGsIJyJL pD+LrZ5kdQHNWaS3nMQlBQqmkNaGkGMCBWYwM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.31.140 with SMTP id y12mr1450444qac.83.1311155751749; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.34.77 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:55:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4E26A0C6.7060805@panozzo.it> References: <4E26A0C6.7060805@panozzo.it> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 11:55:51 +0200 Message-ID: From: Filip Navara To: Giovanni Panozzo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:55:53 -0000 On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 11:32 AM, Giovanni Panozzo wrote: [snip] > I know: I'm using CalDAV to sync my brother's work calendar on his iPad > with the one on Gmail. It works great to sync calendar. > But I have no enterprise implementation of CalDAV, because the majority > of my customers has or want Exchange + Blackberry Enterprise Server. There are enterprise CalDAV servers - Apple Calendar Server, Oracle Beehive, Oracle Unified Communications Suite and several others. > My opinion is that having a single protocol/connection to access email, > contacts and calendar will be a big benefit: If we were to start from scratch then yes. We don't. > - for client developers: they will avoid to write extra code to support > a second protocol. Less connections to open, less connecion to monitor, > less configuration dialog boxes to write to ask server address. Less SSL > certificates to manage. Less protocols to sniff when debugging. Fine, HTTP is a good candidate for that. There's plenty of tools to debug HTTP, atom feeds, WebDAV. There were proposals to implement email protocols on top of HTTP. Not one, many: - Hotmail used a WebDAV based email protocol. - There was draft of Atom-based email access (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dusseault-httpmail-00) - And there was at least one draft of WebDAV-based email protocol that I can't find a reference to. > - for server developers: IMAP servers already have good storage > functionalities and good commands to access them. Why calendar and > contacts related function (like search) can't be integrated in the code > of cyrus of dovecot ? The requirements for email and calendars are VERY different. Just read the CalDAV protocol documentation and the draft of CalDAV Scheduling and perhaps you will understand. Honestly, IMAP is just as good storage for calendars as FTP. > - for sysadmins: less configuration to do both at the client and the > server side. > >> Autoconfiguration via DNS/HTTP exists as well. The DNS-based approach >> is described at http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6186. A mixed DNS/HTTP >> protocol is specified in Microsoft Exchange Autodiscover and it is >> compatible with IMAP and SMTP. > > Can't see CalDAV or CardDav in RFC6186 :) http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-daboo-srv-caldav-10 > The basic idea behind Microsoft Exchange autodiscover.xml is good. I > mean "have the user only enter its email address, its password, and he > will be able to access all the PIM information he needs: e-mail, > calendar, contacts and whatever IMAP-nextgen will provide". > But autodiscover.xml is complex and was born to solve M$ Exchange > complexities. I would like to have something more IMAP related and a bit > simpler. [snip] > What I really meant is: now configuring an IMAP+SMTP client is very hard > (read: impossible) for the average user. > Take an user with its brand new smartphone (my brother again, he is a > dentist, not an IT man). He taps randomly on the phone until he reach > the e-mail client program. If the client program only asks "just give me > your email address and your passord", your client and your protocol will > gain a new user. > > If your software still ask the user (my brother) "tell me your e-mail > addres, your password, your imap server (uh ? what is it ?), whether it > supports PLAIN login or CRAM-MD5, whether the Sent folder is called > "Sent", "Sent items" or "Posta inviata" (the italian name), the user > will shut your software down and never open it again. And... i forgot to > mention namespace, folder separator, SSL selfisgned certs, SMTP server, > caldav server, carddav server and related options. We don't ask any of that as long as the servers are configured correctly. In the best case the user enters email address and password. Then we determine the POP3/IMAP/SMTP/CalDAV/CardDAV/XMPP settings using automatic discovery (Exchange Autodiscover, SRV records or fallback .xml file distributed with the installation). We determine the folder names using IMAP XLIST or SPECIAL-USE extension and folder layout using the IMAP NAMESPACE extension. Best regards, Filip Navara From filip.navara@gmail.com Wed Jul 20 02:59:56 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 167CF21F86A5 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:59:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mhKHnODCGorG for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qw0-f44.google.com (mail-qw0-f44.google.com [209.85.216.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B2EC21F8892 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qwc23 with SMTP id 23so48510qwc.31 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:59:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=+Jhu6fC1TsiLVBGQUrJD4xFAmUH+hKK4uy5Pyf1RM60=; b=Z5uS8y0fr2jwq2eUfrZ9F5FyjZMwslx5WXcnTAGvkvcmi4DuCgNxtpMhKRhag3Zcp7 vGpXETdZxaokpwrls/cvFZzJwQ6j+hzIrI9WKfsbIhmRlFxfq1HlwcZvq9cJYWjLqo5b 3ByDH7xdaP2s05Q2ULfviTWTomW+5TMeGn7Pg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.51.199 with SMTP id e7mr7065403qcg.34.1311155994999; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:59:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.34.77 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 02:59:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4E26A0C6.7060805@panozzo.it> References: <4E26A0C6.7060805@panozzo.it> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 11:59:54 +0200 Message-ID: From: Filip Navara To: Giovanni Panozzo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:59:56 -0000 On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 11:32 AM, Giovanni Panozzo wrote: > The basic idea behind Microsoft Exchange autodiscover.xml is good. I > mean "have the user only enter its email address, its password, and he > will be able to access all the PIM information he needs: e-mail, > calendar, contacts and whatever IMAP-nextgen will provide". > But autodiscover.xml is complex and was born to solve M$ Exchange > complexities. I would like to have something more IMAP related and a bit > simpler. It's complex only if you make it complex. I've implemented it twice in PHP on the server side and once in C# on the client side. Best regards, Filip Navara From giovanni@panozzo.it Wed Jul 20 03:36:56 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFB9021F86EB for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 03:36:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.555, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kETCDaX22CsS for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 03:36:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from do2.yuu.it (host166-204-149-62.serverdedicati.aruba.it [62.149.204.166]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D0C21F86E0 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 03:36:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.98.212] (host213-176-static.106-82-b.business.telecomitalia.it [82.106.176.213]) by do2.yuu.it (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3F5A42CFA23 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 12:36:55 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E26AFC6.3040708@panozzo.it> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 12:36:54 +0200 From: Giovanni Panozzo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.18) Gecko/20110617 Thunderbird/3.1.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: imap5@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:36:57 -0000 > - for server developers: IMAP servers already have good storage > > functionalities and good commands to access them. Why calendar and > > contacts related function (like search) can't be integrated in the code > > of cyrus of dovecot ? > The requirements for email and calendars are VERY different. Just read > the CalDAV protocol documentation and the draft of CalDAV Scheduling > and perhaps you will understand. > Honestly, IMAP is just as good storage for calendars as FTP. Ok, I can understand this storage organization difference. I add: a server with one protocol and two storages is simpler than a server with two protocols and two storages. > We don't ask any of that as long as the servers are configured correctly. > > In the best case the user enters email address and password. Then we > determine the POP3/IMAP/SMTP/CalDAV/CardDAV/XMPP settings using > automatic discovery (Exchange Autodiscover, SRV records or fallback > .xml file distributed with the installation). We determine the folder > names using IMAP XLIST or SPECIAL-USE extension and folder layout > using the IMAP NAMESPACE extension. The fact YOU did a good job to implement all those things, does not imply that all software developers will do the same effort on their client and server software. The world was, is and will be full of client problems and badly configured servers. You can't do anything against this. Only less configuration complexity/parameters and clear standards will lead to chances to have well configured servers and well behaving clients. The only perfectly configured server is the one which has NO configuration parameters :) > The basic idea behind Microsoft Exchange autodiscover.xml is good. I > > mean "have the user only enter its email address, its password, and he > > will be able to access all the PIM information he needs: e-mail, > > calendar, contacts and whatever IMAP-nextgen will provide". > > But autodiscover.xml is complex and was born to solve M$ Exchange > > complexities. I would like to have something more IMAP related and a bit > > simpler. > It's complex only if you make it complex. I've implemented it twice in > PHP on the server side and once in C# on the client side. We are discussing of IMAP standard. Many features of autodiscover.xml are OT and not necessary here (OABUrl, OOFUrl, SPA...). This is what I call "more complex than needed". And I suspect that there are also Microsoft patents that cover parts of autodiscover.xml. From filip.navara@gmail.com Wed Jul 20 04:10:14 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C724721F8A69 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 04:10:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GE81sOgmDgKm for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 04:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f179.google.com (mail-qy0-f179.google.com [209.85.216.179]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16EA021F8A62 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 04:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qyk29 with SMTP id 29so79874qyk.10 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 04:09:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=joKsGkGbSRrR1wQ+ZIa0kjgSaKJJuR14G7Jl8FXmUBc=; b=VXvMw5uJuzkt8zPvUrnYx8NNNUch7AYXo3fbqGZ6FocwU6gia2G12thuyA2dwllyOM PpQP6+1matnmhl2tesOM7rV1fKgaLCUUZ1nS3pOrFj55ScRZLW4MVwGCKiATOwLiOQ50 HTuxt+oGW9EudSTIV47kFnLG6Dah0Ko7N27IE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.51.199 with SMTP id e7mr7123052qcg.34.1311160188145; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 04:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.34.77 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 04:09:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4E26AFC6.3040708@panozzo.it> References: <4E26AFC6.3040708@panozzo.it> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:09:48 +0200 Message-ID: From: Filip Navara To: Giovanni Panozzo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 11:10:15 -0000 On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 12:36 PM, Giovanni Panozzo wrote: > >> - for server developers: IMAP servers already have good storage >> > functionalities and good commands to access them. Why calendar and >> > contacts related function (like search) can't be integrated in the code >> > of cyrus of dovecot ? >> The requirements for email and calendars are VERY different. Just read >> the CalDAV protocol documentation and the draft of CalDAV Scheduling >> and perhaps you will understand. >> Honestly, IMAP is just as good storage for calendars as FTP. > > Ok, I can understand this storage organization difference. > > I add: a server with one protocol and two storages is simpler than a server > with two protocols and two storages. Obviously you still don't understand it. The protocol differences are just as big as the storage ones. A typical query with non-cached CalDAV client could be "give me all events from default calendar from 18-07-2011 to 24-07-2007 and expand recurring events into instances". The similarities go only as far as full cache synchronization goes, but then all the hard stuff would have to be implemented on the client-side or you'd have to re-implement CalDAV on IMAP. >> We don't ask any of that as long as the servers are configured correctly. >> >> In the best case the user enters email address and password. Then we >> determine the POP3/IMAP/SMTP/CalDAV/CardDAV/XMPP settings using >> automatic discovery (Exchange Autodiscover, SRV records or fallback >> .xml file distributed with the installation). We determine the folder >> names using IMAP XLIST or SPECIAL-USE extension and folder layout >> using the IMAP NAMESPACE extension. > > > The fact YOU did a good job to implement all those things, does not > imply that all software developers will do the same effort on their > client and server software. The world was, is and will be full of client > problems and badly configured servers. You can't do anything against this. Exactly my point. The infrastructure and protocols are already there. People implement them poorly not because of the lack of the protocols, but for other reasons (business, lack of time, lack of interest). http://www.xkcd.com/927/ > Only less configuration complexity/parameters and clear standards will > lead to chances to have well configured servers and well behaving clients. > > The only perfectly configured server is the one which has NO > configuration parameters :) > >> The basic idea behind Microsoft Exchange autodiscover.xml is good. I >> > mean "have the user only enter its email address, its password, and he >> > will be able to access all the PIM information he needs: e-mail, >> > calendar, contacts and whatever IMAP-nextgen will provide". >> > But autodiscover.xml is complex and was born to solve M$ Exchange >> > complexities. I would like to have something more IMAP related and > > a bit >> >> > simpler. >> It's complex only if you make it complex. I've implemented it twice in >> PHP on the server side and once in C# on the client side. > > We are discussing of IMAP standard. Many features of autodiscover.xml > are OT and not necessary here (OABUrl, OOFUrl, SPA...). This is what I > call "more complex than needed". And I suspect that there are also > Microsoft patents that cover parts of autodiscover.xml. I didn't bring up the discussion about auto-configuration. Of course many of the options of the protocol are useless for IMAP, but that's not the point. That's like saying we shouldn't use HTTP because Facebook API uses it. Nobody forces you to use Facebook API with every HTTP implementation. Best regards, Filip Navara From arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no Wed Jul 20 06:12:30 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D310F21F8751 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:12:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2skl8hgR760v for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:12:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from strange.aox.org (strange.aox.org [IPv6:2001:4d88:100c::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0979421F87D3 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:12:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fri.gulbrandsen.priv.no (kalyani.aox.org [79.140.39.164]) by strange.aox.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 609B0FA00EA; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:12:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no by fri.gulbrandsen.priv.no (Archiveopteryx 3.1.3) with esmtpsa id 1311167547-1279-1278/9/918; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 15:12:27 +0200 Message-Id: <4E26D43A.1090906@gulbrandsen.priv.no> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 15:12:26 +0200 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen Organization: Me, http://arnt.gulbrandsen.priv.no User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.17) Gecko/20110424 Thunderbird/3.1.10 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: imap5@ietf.org References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> <1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> In-Reply-To: <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:12:30 -0000 On 07/20/2011 04:04 AM, Gilles LAMIRAL wrote: > Breaking the current postmen/mailboxes model just to save bandwidth that > is doubling every 6 months is intense thinking, congratulations! Bandwidth isn't doubling every six months, unless you constrain the comparison to an IMO unrealistic degree. I had about as much bandwidth yesterday as I had in 1995. The change is that yesterday I read mail on the train, which I couldn't do at all in 1995. Last year I read mail in rural India, albeit with as little bandwidth than I had in 1990-2. Amazing progress, but IMO the real change is that the network has grown. Arnt From arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no Wed Jul 20 06:27:17 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4498E21F86E8 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:27:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vCwgWz99jTdF for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from strange.aox.org (strange.aox.org [IPv6:2001:4d88:100c::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72F0321F86C1 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fri.gulbrandsen.priv.no (kalyani.aox.org [79.140.39.164]) by strange.aox.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3891CFA00EA; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:27:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no by fri.gulbrandsen.priv.no (Archiveopteryx 3.1.3) with esmtpsa id 1311168431-1279-1278/9/919; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 15:27:11 +0200 Message-Id: <4E26D7AF.9010305@gulbrandsen.priv.no> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 15:27:11 +0200 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen Organization: Me, http://arnt.gulbrandsen.priv.no User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.17) Gecko/20110424 Thunderbird/3.1.10 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: imap5@ietf.org References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> <1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> <4E26D43A.1090906@gulbrandsen.priv.no> In-Reply-To: <4E26D43A.1090906@gulbrandsen.priv.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:27:17 -0000 I wrote: > Amazing progress, but IMO the real > change is that the network has grown. Oh. And that bandwidth availability now varies wildly. Many more people have network access, but how much varies. For example, my smartphone says it has HSPA right now, but sometimes it falls back all the way to GPRS. Even within city limits. Quite a difference. Arnt From cyrus@daboo.name Wed Jul 20 06:41:39 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45E8121F8591 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:41:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.416 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.416 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.183, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5huCpM0nsw3U for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from daboo.name (daboo.name [151.201.22.177]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E59621F8508 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46F0C16F671D; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:41:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daboo.name Received: from daboo.name ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (chewy.daboo.name [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c3DbjF97Iecm; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:41:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from caldav.corp.apple.com (unknown [17.45.162.46]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3C25A16F6712; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:41:05 -0400 From: Cyrus Daboo To: Timo Sirainen , imap5@ietf.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1311155645.10421.1178.camel@hurina> References: <4E26A0C6.7060805@panozzo.it> <1311155645.10421.1178.camel@hurina> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.1.0a1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; size=2040 Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:41:39 -0000 Hi Timo, --On July 20, 2011 12:54:05 PM +0300 Timo Sirainen wrote: >> - for server developers: IMAP servers already have good storage >> functionalities and good commands to access them. Why calendar and >> contacts related function (like search) can't be integrated in the code >> of cyrus of dovecot ? > > Calendar functionality is very different from mail functionality. To > implement it efficiently it couldn't just be bolted onto existing mail > store, but rather use a whole new database design. So adding calendaring > to IMAP would not help server developers. For me it would be easier (and > cleaner and prettier) to build a whole new calendar server/binary than > to plug it into the existing IMAP code. Very true. Some key differences include the fact that CalDAV does a lot of writing to the server (APPENDs) except that it needs to overwrite (modify) existing data - something that is very alien to IMAP (but could easily be "hacked" in). Then there is scheduling. The implicit scheduling model we have for CalDAV effectively means the server is sending messages internally between user accounts and nowadays, more often than not, externally to other calendar servers in the same cluster or across domains. Its likely that the approach to scaling a calendar server is also going to be very different from scaling IMAP. There is a lot of complexity there - but that is true no matter which "transport" protocol you choose to use. > But I have to admit, I don't really like HTTP. I would have tried > implementing CalDAV already if it wasn't for its dependency on HTTP.. Its just HTTP (and WebDAV) - there were several working server and client implementations at the very first CalConnect interop event many years ago - getting up to speed on a simple implementation is easy - doing scheduling right and scaling the whole thing is much harder. But again, just like IMAP, there are those who will just do the bare minimum to get by and those who try and do a thorough job of it. -- Cyrus Daboo From cyrus@daboo.name Wed Jul 20 06:49:12 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8B0921F877B for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:49:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.842 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.842 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.443, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YSKV5Ceio3pc for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from daboo.name (daboo.name [151.201.22.177]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B29F521F8748 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2F8616F67B5; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:49:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daboo.name Received: from daboo.name ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (chewy.daboo.name [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LKyFKT7awW1A; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:49:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from caldav.corp.apple.com (unknown [17.45.162.46]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DC65C16F67A6; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:49:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:48:59 -0400 From: Cyrus Daboo To: Giovanni Panozzo , imap5@ietf.org Message-ID: <70314BBDEB969F48464F5F27@caldav.corp.apple.com> In-Reply-To: <4E26A0C6.7060805@panozzo.it> References: <4E26A0C6.7060805@panozzo.it> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.1.0a1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; size=3802 Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:49:12 -0000 Hi Giovanni, --On July 20, 2011 11:32:54 AM +0200 Giovanni Panozzo wrote: > > Il 19/07/2011 14:07, Filip Navara ha scritto: >> On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 1:17 PM, Giovanni Panozzo >> wrote: >>> >> All of these already exist. >> Calendar and contact synchronization is handled by CalDAV and CardDAV, >> which are much better suited for the job. They support time-range >> queries, free/busy lookup, scheduling and all related features. > > I know: I'm using CalDAV to sync my brother's work calendar on his iPad > with the one on Gmail. It works great to sync calendar. > But I have no enterprise implementation of CalDAV, because the majority > of my customers has or want Exchange + Blackberry Enterprise Server. > > My opinion is that having a single protocol/connection to access email, > contacts and calendar will be a big benefit: > - for client developers: they will avoid to write extra code to support > a second protocol. Less connections to open, less connecion to monitor, > less configuration dialog boxes to write to ask server address. Less SSL > certificates to manage. Less protocols to sniff when debugging. > - for server developers: IMAP servers already have good storage > functionalities and good commands to access them. Why calendar and > contacts related function (like search) can't be integrated in the code > of cyrus of dovecot ? > - for sysadmins: less configuration to do both at the client and the > server side. As noted in my reply to Filip, the way data is accessed and used in mail and calendar servers (well IMAP and CalDAV now) is very different so its not a simple thing to just bolt one set of functionality into the other (and yes there have been may people who have suggested to me that there should be a MailDAV protocol - and no I do not want to go there). If we are going to forge ahead here, I would rather see a brand new protocol that can be data type agnostic (i.e. there is a lot more "stuff" than just email, calendar and contact data that a user might want to store and manipulate and relate - bookmarks, photos, music etc). >> Autoconfiguration via DNS/HTTP exists as well. The DNS-based approach >> is described at http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6186. A mixed DNS/HTTP >> protocol is specified in Microsoft Exchange Autodiscover and it is >> compatible with IMAP and SMTP. > > Can't see CalDAV or CardDav in RFC6186 :) See . That has been approved for publication but stuck in the queue on a missing reference for a very long time. I intend to bug ADs about this next week... >>> But the user, the sysadmin, the programmer, the market, they need and >>> they want these features, now. >> >> You're wrong on this one. The user wants fast and reliable email >> client (whatever that means), but they don't give a sh*t about the >> underlying technology. As long as user is concerned, BURL+GENURLAUTH >> is just as good as UID SUBMIT. > > You are right, the user only wants fast and reliable mail. > > What I really meant is: now configuring an IMAP+SMTP client is very hard > (read: impossible) for the average user. This is what RFC 6186 (and srv-caldav) is meant to solve. A user only need enter their email address and password and the client ought to be able to discover and configure all the relevant accounts via DNS SRV. > So in my opinion, the needs are > - One autoconfiguration file or DNS SRV records, mandatory in the next > version of IMAP. If we have an update to CalDAV I would also make DNS SRV mandatory ti implement there. We had a lot of issues with account discovery and setup earlier on which lead to the srv-caldav . Now that clients and servers are implementing that, things are better. -- Cyrus Daboo From cyrus@daboo.name Wed Jul 20 06:55:02 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E14321F877B for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:55:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.386 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.386 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.213, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PtpDZEFwAsd8 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from daboo.name (daboo.name [151.201.22.177]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99FD021F87C2 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 06:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B0BD16F6838; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:55:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daboo.name Received: from daboo.name ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (chewy.daboo.name [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eAd02q0KFNn7; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from caldav.corp.apple.com (unknown [17.45.162.46]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E3A6D16F682D; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:54:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 09:54:56 -0400 From: Cyrus Daboo To: Giovanni Panozzo , imap5@ietf.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4E26AFC6.3040708@panozzo.it> References: <4E26AFC6.3040708@panozzo.it> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.1.0a1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; size=1404 Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:55:02 -0000 Hi Giovanni, --On July 20, 2011 12:36:54 PM +0200 Giovanni Panozzo wrote: >> In the best case the user enters email address and password. Then we >> determine the POP3/IMAP/SMTP/CalDAV/CardDAV/XMPP settings using >> automatic discovery (Exchange Autodiscover, SRV records or fallback >> .xml file distributed with the installation). We determine the folder >> names using IMAP XLIST or SPECIAL-USE extension and folder layout >> using the IMAP NAMESPACE extension. > > > The fact YOU did a good job to implement all those things, does not > imply that all software developers will do the same effort on their > client and server software. The world was, is and will be full of client > problems and badly configured servers. You can't do anything against this. > > Only less configuration complexity/parameters and clear standards will > lead to chances to have well configured servers and well behaving clients. Do you really think a new protocol will make people write better code? At the end of the day people will do as much or as little as they need to satisfy their customers and business case - that has always been true and will continue to be. Frankly the best solution is to have high quality open source libraries and documentation that the "lazy" developers can use to implement a solid product (probably easier to do for client than server). -- Cyrus Daboo From tss@iki.fi Wed Jul 20 07:02:35 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2515721F86AA for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 07:02:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id agKQvUCHTC6o for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 07:02:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dovecot.org (dovecot.org [193.210.130.67]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BF0A21F85B2 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 07:02:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.10.101] (a88-112-255-76.elisa-laajakaista.fi [88.112.255.76]) by dovecot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B79A1AE8792; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 17:02:36 +0300 (EEST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Timo Sirainen In-Reply-To: <70314BBDEB969F48464F5F27@caldav.corp.apple.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 17:02:32 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4E26A0C6.7060805@panozzo.it> <70314BBDEB969F48464F5F27@caldav.corp.apple.com> To: Cyrus Daboo X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 14:02:35 -0000 On 20.7.2011, at 16.48, Cyrus Daboo wrote: > If we are going to forge ahead here, I would rather see a brand new = protocol that can be data type agnostic (i.e. there is a lot more = "stuff" than just email, calendar and contact data that a user might = want to store and manipulate and relate - bookmarks, photos, music etc). Something like that could be interesting. I've always wondered why I = couldn't simply have different kinds of views to all of my data. For = example I might want to show my calendar entries as a list similar to = emails. Or maybe showing emails in a view similar to a calendar. Things = like that. Instead of having an "email client", I could have an "email = view" and tell it to show either mails, local files, calendar, contacts, = whatever. A type agnostic protocol could be simply a database where you could = specify what kind of types some specific fields were (dates, strings, = numbers) and the server could figure out ways to optimize searching for = those. Uh. Is this getting too close to SQL? :) Or was Notes something = like this.. From gilles.lamiral@laposte.net Wed Jul 20 07:06:33 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91DE921F86BD for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 07:06:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AUJhWeuAawaO for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 07:06:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ks200821.kimsufi.com (ks200821.kimsufi.com [91.121.112.202]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1004321F86A1 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 07:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lamiral.info (lamiral.info [62.147.165.21]) by ks200821.kimsufi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10E8252193F for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 16:06:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (petite.lamiral.info [127.0.0.1]) by lamiral.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B3682440E0 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 16:06:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E26E0E4.4070207@laposte.net> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 16:06:28 +0200 From: Gilles LAMIRAL User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.18) Gecko/20110617 Thunderbird/3.1.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: imap5@ietf.org References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> <1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> <4E26D43A.1090906@gulbrandsen.priv.no> In-Reply-To: <4E26D43A.1090906@gulbrandsen.priv.no> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 14:06:33 -0000 Hello, > Bandwidth isn't doubling every six months, unless you constrain the comparison to an IMO unrealistic degree. Yes I invented the value. No problem when arguing to someone inventing a "99%" argument. Estimating my personal Internet bandwidth rise is a factor of 1000 in 15 years. 15 * ln(2) / ln(1000) = 1.5 So Internet bandwidth is doubling every 18 months, same law for local network (1 Mbps -> 1 Gbps). Funny it's the same value as the Moore law for CPU power. Maybe same law for disk storage. -- Au revoir, 09 51 84 42 42 Gilles Lamiral. France, Baulon (35580) 06 20 79 76 06 From arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no Wed Jul 20 08:00:15 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47B2721F8A1A for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:00:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dvjEkOCFvkI6 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from strange.aox.org (strange.aox.org [IPv6:2001:4d88:100c::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8804421F89BA for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fri.gulbrandsen.priv.no (kalyani.aox.org [79.140.39.164]) by strange.aox.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9023AFA00EA; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 15:00:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no by fri.gulbrandsen.priv.no (Archiveopteryx 3.1.3) with esmtpsa id 1311174012-1279-1278/9/920; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 17:00:12 +0200 Message-Id: <4E26ED7C.2030401@gulbrandsen.priv.no> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 17:00:12 +0200 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen Organization: Me, http://arnt.gulbrandsen.priv.no User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.17) Gecko/20110424 Thunderbird/3.1.10 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: imap5@ietf.org References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> <1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> <4E26D43A.1090906@gulbrandsen.priv.no> <4E26E0E4.4070207@laposte.net> In-Reply-To: <4E26E0E4.4070207@laposte.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 15:00:15 -0000 On 07/20/2011 04:06 PM, Gilles LAMIRAL wrote: > Hello, > >> Bandwidth isn't doubling every six months, unless you constrain the = comparison to an IMO unrealistic degree. > > Yes I invented the value. No problem when arguing to someone inventing = a "99%" argument. I've no problem with the period. I've a problem with the statement that=20 bandwidth doubles in any period of time. It's too narrow. Too many=20 people are getting new slow connections, even people who had faster ones. You'll want an example of both. One. If you read the right/wrong news,=20 you might have seen an announcement that Sony Ericsson won a contract to=20 deploy GPRS in Bangladesh. That adds perhaps 5-10 million new users with=20 50kbps effective bandwidth. Two. Go visit a friend who has both an=20 iphone and a fast DSL connection. Ask him casually to look up something=20 in wikipedia. If he pulls his iphone from his pocket instead of walking=20 over to the computer, the DSL connection has been "replaced" by the=20 iphone's 2G/3G connection. Arnt From gilles.lamiral@laposte.net Wed Jul 20 10:09:18 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 854C921F8AF2 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:09:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wOlOQYKtYCWJ for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ks200821.kimsufi.com (ks200821.kimsufi.com [91.121.112.202]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 077EA21F859F for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:09:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lamiral.info (lamiral.info [62.147.165.21]) by ks200821.kimsufi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E4B552193F for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 19:09:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (petite.lamiral.info [127.0.0.1]) by lamiral.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A13B2440E0 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 19:09:06 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E270BB2.8050009@laposte.net> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 19:09:06 +0200 From: Gilles LAMIRAL User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.18) Gecko/20110617 Thunderbird/3.1.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: imap5@ietf.org References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> <1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> <4E26D43A.1090906@gulbrandsen.priv.no> <4E26E0E4.4070207@laposte.net> <4E26ED7C.2030401@gulbrandsen.priv.no> In-Reply-To: <4E26ED7C.2030401@gulbrandsen.priv.no> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? send twice vs doubling bandwidth X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 17:09:18 -0000 Hello, > I've no problem with the period. I've a problem with the statement that bandwidth doubles in any period of time. It does double in every place. > It's too narrow. Too many people are getting new slow connections, even people who had faster ones. Their new slow connections doubles every 18 month too. Slow connexions don't change the fact that optionnaly doubling sent messages transfer is peanuts when writing messages at 1 byte per second. The big issue is that users don't care about message size. It's just because email client softwares don't represent size on the interface (nobody knows what Kb Mb Gb means). So users send everything over email, they send 700Mb cdroms, 4 Gb dvds, they do try to send that. They're on their right because the reality exposed by email client softwares just let them think it is possible. The issue is not sending a dvd twice, the issue is sending X dvds (twice or not) while receiving 100*X dvds a day. This is a never ended pure bandwidth issue or, better, a size representing issue (this one can be solved). It's not an "IMAP must know how to post locally" issue. -- Au revoir, 09 51 84 42 42 Gilles Lamiral. France, Baulon (35580) 06 20 79 76 06 From brong@fastmail.fm Wed Jul 20 10:49:38 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 788AD21F862F for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:49:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SYnYxKt5larL for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5.smtp.messagingengine.com (out5.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C78D521F8610 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.41]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9FC920EE1; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:49:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend2.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.161]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:49:36 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id :references:mime-version:content-type:in-reply-to; s=smtpout; bh=RFu4brn7asjBDD1evcgOjsGvCA8=; b=QTiQEq++ILqg8S/2BRNZWD+nry9s /Wr2cIoi4fjO2X2Nscy3yu4wlVz4f4880R5WwEl9PRiWGCxwFXDo3FQszuSc6iob 2xvEE09k1DULXobGiP1scuHngt2VEV6LOshQrc5nVqhiIqoVQPzH02kzfdhKXwHh tXPXSZIecAMbOq4= X-Sasl-enc: Jf+KpjuWzP4HPxN8Rrgf0ZtumZWLN6DnVHZgOvwXgxL+ 1311184175 Received: from localhost (unknown [193.69.12.229]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 704304521F6; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:49:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 73469203CD; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 19:49:29 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 19:49:29 +0200 From: Bron Gondwana To: Cyrus Daboo Message-ID: <20110720174929.GA3167@brong.net> References: <4E26A0C6.7060805@panozzo.it> <70314BBDEB969F48464F5F27@caldav.corp.apple.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <70314BBDEB969F48464F5F27@caldav.corp.apple.com> Organization: brong.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 17:49:38 -0000 On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 09:48:59AM -0400, Cyrus Daboo wrote: > >>>But the user, the sysadmin, the programmer, the market, they need and > >>>they want these features, now. > >> > >>You're wrong on this one. The user wants fast and reliable email > >>client (whatever that means), but they don't give a sh*t about the > >>underlying technology. As long as user is concerned, BURL+GENURLAUTH > >>is just as good as UID SUBMIT. Absolutely - so long as it works reliably, the user really doesn't care. > >You are right, the user only wants fast and reliable mail. > > > >What I really meant is: now configuring an IMAP+SMTP client is very hard > >(read: impossible) for the average user. And that's well before you start adding LDAP, CalDAV, etc into the mix. Let along ACAP. > This is what RFC 6186 (and srv-caldav) is meant to solve. A user > only need enter their email address and password and the client > ought to be able to discover and configure all the relevant accounts > via DNS SRV. Yes. RFC 6186 is fricking awesome (as the kids used to say at one stage, they've probably moved on without me). It solves the problem that ACAP really doesn't, which is reducing the amount of crap the user has to deal with. Mozilla did something with skanky XML over HTTP autoconfig stuff for Thunderbird as well (I was semi-involved in that one). Not a great fan of the implementation choices, but I am a great fan of the end result, which is that the user types in their username and password and gets the correct settings. > >So in my opinion, the needs are > >- One autoconfiguration file or DNS SRV records, mandatory in the next > >version of IMAP. > > If we have an update to CalDAV I would also make DNS SRV mandatory > ti implement there. We had a lot of issues with account discovery > and setup earlier on which lead to the srv-caldav . Now that clients > and servers are implementing that, things are better. That would be great. Bron. From brong@fastmail.fm Wed Jul 20 10:58:13 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1B8321F8ABC for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:58:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.600, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c53dgS13XirN for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5.smtp.messagingengine.com (out5.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D0E521F8A97 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:58:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.43]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE05020709; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:58:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend1.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.160]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:58:04 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id :references:mime-version:content-type:in-reply-to; s=smtpout; bh=olvO74zrtrwQfBEjv51l2sUQVqY=; b=gNfUz4YBN+8F/Hpi4NMZZ6X6dFD0 JUQBcCGWaInvJsGkq23OcYRs8nlVHvoqbCfbxsqE/M+/rnolzQi3YWcMypezYv/z 9zKtrMKu9TXQuXP76rQCbxGvqdMfyn9IaKinnFg979CrbsO4HNAmwnEEkutOfUCp nvyUI4Yo8kfIL7k= X-Sasl-enc: 6oxj7bJ73nZYri36VwNUgUOCe6mRA9Wo7rzYtKPpq85U 1311184683 Received: from localhost (unknown [193.69.12.229]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2C178409C4B; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:58:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 200B1203CD; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 19:57:57 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 19:57:57 +0200 From: Bron Gondwana To: Timo Sirainen Message-ID: <20110720175757.GB3167@brong.net> References: <4E26A0C6.7060805@panozzo.it> <70314BBDEB969F48464F5F27@caldav.corp.apple.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: brong.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 17:58:13 -0000 On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 05:02:32PM +0300, Timo Sirainen wrote: > Something like that could be interesting. I've always wondered why I couldn't simply have different kinds of views to all of my data. For example I might want to show my calendar entries as a list similar to emails. Or maybe showing emails in a view similar to a calendar. Things like that. Instead of having an "email client", I could have an "email view" and tell it to show either mails, local files, calendar, contacts, whatever. I'm wary of building something "generic" to solve all the future's problems rather than building a small thing that solves the current problem well. Get too generic and you don't produce benefits worth the effort to implement. We have a lot of protocols like that already - so complex that nobody does them well. Build a PHP by bodging together a bunch of libraries in a useful way and make it trivial to get started, and - much as it's butt ugly - you'll take over the world and make a lot of people's lives better. (did I say butt ugly, full of security problems, yes... but then it took over from the IMHO better mod_perl because it was easy for server administrators to install and sandbox, it was cross platform, and it was easy to just upload some .php files and start hacking with it. Those features turned out to be more important than being "good") > A type agnostic protocol could be simply a database where you could specify what kind of types some specific fields were (dates, strings, numbers) and the server could figure out ways to optimize searching for those. Uh. Is this getting too close to SQL? :) Or was Notes something like this.. There are some good things about Notes, at the low level. Unfortunately the email component was crap last time I had to deal with it, both the emailing bits and the user interface bits. Bron. From fanf2@hermes.cam.ac.uk Wed Jul 20 11:21:06 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8975621F8B06 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 11:21:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GzXDcbOnn+81 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 11:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppsw-41.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw-41.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.141]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 802AD21F8AFD for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 11:21:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-SpamDetails: not scanned X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ Received: from hermes-2.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.54]:49851) by ppsw-41.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.156]:25) with esmtpa (EXTERNAL:fanf2) id 1QjbOF-0006mV-QK (Exim 4.72) (return-path ); Wed, 20 Jul 2011 19:20:59 +0100 Received: from fanf2 (helo=localhost) by hermes-2.csi.cam.ac.uk (hermes.cam.ac.uk) with local-esmtp id 1QjbOF-00056w-4k (Exim 4.67) (return-path ); Wed, 20 Jul 2011 19:20:59 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 19:20:59 +0100 From: Tony Finch X-X-Sender: fanf2@hermes-2.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Bron Gondwana In-Reply-To: <20110720174929.GA3167@brong.net> Message-ID: References: <4E26A0C6.7060805@panozzo.it> <70314BBDEB969F48464F5F27@caldav.corp.apple.com> <20110720174929.GA3167@brong.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (LSU 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: Tony Finch Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 18:21:06 -0000 Bron Gondwana wrote: > > Mozilla did something with skanky XML over HTTP autoconfig stuff for > Thunderbird as well (I was semi-involved in that one). Surely it can't be as badly designed as Microsoft's version. http://fanf.livejournal.com/95018.html Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ Malin, Hebrides: North or northwest 4 or 5. Moderate. Showers. Good. From dave@cridland.net Wed Jul 20 14:38:31 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2E5321F8888 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 14:38:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0d02cfPIWKW7 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 14:38:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net (peirce.dave.cridland.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:882:2e0:81ff:fe29:d16a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67A1821F8786 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 14:38:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (peirce.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) by peirce.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBA801168087; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:38:22 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at peirce.dave.cridland.net Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (peirce.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i9Jby8hTcuIh; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:38:20 +0100 (BST) Received: from puncture (puncture.dave.cridland.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:882:221:85ff:fe3f:1696]) by peirce.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id A9FA41168067; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:38:20 +0100 (BST) References: <4E26A0C6.7060805@panozzo.it> <70314BBDEB969F48464F5F27@caldav.corp.apple.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <9031.1311197900.689346@puncture> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:38:20 +0100 From: Dave Cridland To: Timo Sirainen , "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP\." , Cyrus Daboo Content-Type: text/plain; delsp="yes"; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 21:38:31 -0000 On Wed Jul 20 15:02:32 2011, Timo Sirainen wrote: > A type agnostic protocol could be simply a database where you could > specify what kind of types some specific fields were (dates, > strings, numbers) and the server could figure out ways to optimize > searching for those. Uh. Is this getting too close to SQL? :) Or > was Notes something like this.. ACAP - a schemaless protocol that handles objects with attributes you can slice and dice using client-specified comparators. I tried implementing a calendar store in ACAP once, for a laugh. Turns out that you need server smarts too, and in spades, for calendaring, though. Mail I've not tried, but since each message is itself a tree of Things, I'm not sure it'd be great anyway. I think, in general, that this is quite usual - you benefit enormously from the server knowing what data you're handling, in most cases. ACAP is very handy for the other stuff. (Perhaps that's a reason why it never took off - it's a lot of work writing a generic data server that then handles only un-sexy data) Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@dave.cridland.net - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade From brong@fastmail.fm Wed Jul 20 23:42:07 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C13111E807A for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 23:42:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id og-wYfi8PYjW for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 23:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5.smtp.messagingengine.com (out5.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0F6F11E8078 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2011 23:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.44]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCC3C208AD; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 02:42:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from web2.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.212]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 21 Jul 2011 02:42:01 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=message-id:from:to:cc:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:references:subject :in-reply-to:date; s=smtpout; bh=reYQrqM3AcR+ckii/IX6Mdr+VCE=; b= JdahADUGTeCEme9YkFmtPcg2f12NwiOFqHJVIC+Ku+XOnSImnGTLmS8wzrdWqV1B 8qRewjp+iOniHlTdhDPiTs4l9ThQsOpq4T3gwHnJKvv+t/b60ZIguagwemT85GFG 907FgREvleo8ukApo+ED46TA3Q/4ajVtpVTI9tYpNsU= Received: by web2.messagingengine.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id BA278363DBC; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 02:42:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1311230521.25837.2154184801@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Sasl-Enc: vVkxel3/deOZdBf2EQfLFGCn6jimtNglRv4P+G46xhHB 1311230521 From: "Bron Gondwana" To: "Randall Gellens" , "Gilles LAMIRAL" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it><20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net><1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com><4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> <20110720060738.GA6750@brong.net> In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 08:42:01 +0200 Cc: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 06:42:07 -0000 On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 15:03 -0700, "Randall Gellens" wrote: > At 8:07 AM +0200 7/20/11, Bron Gondwana wrote: > > > POP doesn't have any way to upload email > > There's XTND XMIT, which was a disaster. There is only one benefit here, reusing the same connection. An IMAP based equivalent is that plus the bandwidth saving. So tell me how it was a disaster precisely? Other than a lack of capability information meaning clients tried it when it wasn't supported? The "considered harmful" arguments all sound remarkably like Hurd enthusiasts railing against the "dirty" design of Linux. Mostly it's the lack of compelling benefits and the shithouse interface for configuring Eudora that I see looking for information. Bron. -- Bron Gondwana brong@fastmail.fm From dave@cridland.net Thu Jul 21 00:37:28 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0256D21F8A97 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 00:37:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.556 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.556 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.043, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Mq2aPUlbbyy for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 00:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net (peirce.dave.cridland.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:882:2e0:81ff:fe29:d16a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F75B21F8A71 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 00:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (peirce.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) by peirce.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA5A21168087; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 08:37:14 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at peirce.dave.cridland.net Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (peirce.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GgyLGI7cbY83; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 08:37:12 +0100 (BST) Received: from puncture (puncture.dave.cridland.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:882:221:85ff:fe3f:1696]) by peirce.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 8C0B91168067; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 08:37:12 +0100 (BST) References: =?US-ASCII?Q?<4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it><20?= =?US-ASCII?Q?10718190947.GB8329@brong.net>_<4E24B55C.10505?= =?US-ASCII?Q?7@laposte.net><1311115679.3432.2153661013@web?= =?US-ASCII?Q?ail.messagingengine.com><4E2637C3.7090704@lap?= =?US-ASCII?Q?ste.net>?= <20110720060738.GA6750@brong.net> <1311230521.25837.2154184801@webmail.messagingengine.com> In-Reply-To: <1311230521.25837.2154184801@webmail.messagingengine.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <9031.1311233832.546043@puncture> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 08:37:12 +0100 From: Dave Cridland To: Bron Gondwana , "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP\." , Randall Gellens , Gilles LAMIRAL Content-Type: text/plain; delsp="yes"; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 07:37:28 -0000 On Thu Jul 21 07:42:01 2011, Bron Gondwana wrote: > There is only one benefit here, reusing the same connection. An > IMAP based equivalent is that plus the bandwidth saving. > > And a fanatical devotion to the pope. > The "considered harmful" arguments all sound remarkably like Hurd > enthusiasts railing against the "dirty" design of Linux. Mostly > it's the lack of compelling benefits and the shithouse interface > for configuring Eudora that I see looking for information. That's an impressively random lash-out. I thought configuring Eudora from a standard ACAP server or WorldMail's cut-down one was really quite straightforward. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@dave.cridland.net - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade From giovanni@panozzo.it Thu Jul 21 01:00:08 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A007421F8B51 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 01:00:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q7IOakdvcjjk for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 01:00:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from do2.yuu.it (host166-204-149-62.serverdedicati.aruba.it [62.149.204.166]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0B6521F851F for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 01:00:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [143.161.57.221] (host171-150-static.84-94-b.business.telecomitalia.it [94.84.150.171]) by do2.yuu.it (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B35282CFE87 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 10:00:06 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E27DC86.9040006@panozzo.it> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 10:00:06 +0200 From: Giovanni Panozzo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.18) Gecko/20110617 Thunderbird/3.1.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: imap5@ietf.org References: <4E26A0C6.7060805@panozzo.it> <70314BBDEB969F48464F5F27@caldav.corp.apple.com> <20110720175757.GB3167@brong.net> In-Reply-To: <20110720175757.GB3167@brong.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 08:00:08 -0000 Il 20/07/2011 19:57, Bron Gondwana ha scritto: > On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 05:02:32PM +0300, Timo Sirainen wrote: >> Something like that could be interesting. I've always wondered why I couldn't simply have different kinds of views to all of my data. For example I might want to show my calendar entries as a list similar to emails. Or maybe showing emails in a view similar to a calendar. Things like that. Instead of having an "email client", I could have an "email view" and tell it to show either mails, local files, calendar, contacts, whatever. > > I'm wary of building something "generic" to solve all the future's Me too. Too "generic" usually means a complex protocol to handle higher level generalizations, and few lazy programmers won't be able to implement all the protocol specs. But having IMAP5 handle only a limited number of objects (e-mail, contact/contact group, calendar/calendar entry, message filter) with their associated methods is not a bad idea, in my opinion. The protocol specs will also benefit to have a direct 1:1 correspondence with an opensource Object Oriented API for clients and lazy programmers. From brong@fastmail.fm Thu Jul 21 08:29:21 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7354321F8A7B for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 08:29:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.394 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.394 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.605, BAD_ENC_HEADER=1.81, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u7MDkcPG2Jx0 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 08:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5.smtp.messagingengine.com (out5.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45D2921F8A67 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 08:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.41]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9BB120CC2; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 11:29:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend1.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.160]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 21 Jul 2011 11:29:16 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id :references:mime-version:content-type:in-reply-to; s=smtpout; bh=phXWVTi2SMxWNte6CJUPf2I8xlo=; b=qzk/D6o9a7XamSii0iECl/zWll36 buoc8EVRuq9HTnkkFs0FG3jjmxa/BbQgy4M5+1v0zzCaCNu0t+Cro49L9WUsPRcu ii9E4HBtxSwYLcrVR6z6cvkSvBcjSTLrxy7yjEssQTq3BxrXrtj05Loq2/jd/AtL 2kqg2AU3BmoZnNY= X-Sasl-enc: 28BYE+fmq1dawzo40oFXYA91BK0a/MepCrVcAIUxFVK8 1311262155 Received: from localhost (unknown [193.69.12.229]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 13A3840C980; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 11:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C3C3D203CD; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 17:29:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 17:29:08 +0200 From: Bron Gondwana To: Dave Cridland Message-ID: <20110721152908.GA3036@brong.net> References: <20?==?US-ASCII?Q?10718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.10505?==?US-ASCII?Q?7@laposte.net> <1311115679.3432.2153661013@web?==?US-ASCII?Q?ail.messagingengine.com> <4E2637C3.7090704@lap?==?US-ASCII?Q?ste.net> <20110720060738.GA6750@brong.net> <1311230521.25837.2154184801@webmail.messagingengine.com> <9031.1311233832.546043@puncture> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9031.1311233832.546043@puncture> Organization: brong.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: Randall Gellens , "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 15:29:21 -0000 On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 08:37:12AM +0100, Dave Cridland wrote: > On Thu Jul 21 07:42:01 2011, Bron Gondwana wrote: > >There is only one benefit here, reusing the same connection. An > >IMAP based equivalent is that plus the bandwidth saving. > > And a fanatical devotion to the pope. Obviously, you can't get anywhere without having one of those, or at least professing to carry one when in polite company. > >The "considered harmful" arguments all sound remarkably like Hurd > >enthusiasts railing against the "dirty" design of Linux. Mostly > >it's the lack of compelling benefits and the shithouse interface > >for configuring Eudora that I see looking for information. > > That's an impressively random lash-out. > > I thought configuring Eudora from a standard ACAP server or > WorldMail's cut-down one was really quite straightforward. Ok - last I looked was ~1998 when I last used Eudora admittedly. Perhaps it got a whole lot better in the meantime. It certainly wasn't as easy a the first screen offering an easily selectable "use ACAP server for all configuration" and then entering a server name, username and password. Which is still approximately one item too many - which is why "enter your email address and password and the client configures itself correctly" is the direction things are going to. But it certainly seemed that nobody was actually doing it 10 years ago, choosing instead to publish big piles of screenshots on how to configure their systems with IMAP/POP. I don't buy the theory that it's because they were all morons who didn't understand ACAP. Bron. From randy@qualcomm.com Thu Jul 21 16:43:49 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3365311E807E for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 16:43:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DcdeX7KyoCD3 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 16:43:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine02.qualcomm.com (wolverine02.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.251]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FB8F11E807A for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 16:43:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=randy@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1311291828; x=1342827828; h=message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:date:to:from: subject:cc:mime-version:content-type:x-random-sig-tag: x-originating-ip; z=Message-ID:=20 |In-Reply-To:=20<1311230521.25837.2154184801@webmail.mess agingengine.com>|References:=20<4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it ><2011071 8190947.G=0D=0A=20B8329@brong.net>=0D=0A=20<4E24B55C.1050 507@laposte.net><1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.mess =0D=0A=20agingengine.com><4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> =0D=0A=20<20110720060738.GA6750@brong.net>=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20<1311230521.25 837.2154184801@webmail.messagingengine.com>|X-Mailer:=20E udora=20for=20Mac=20OS=20X|Date:=20Thu,=2021=20Jul=202011 =2016:39:40=20-0700|To:=20Bron=20Gondwana=20,=20Gilles=20LAMIRAL=0D=0A=09|From:=20Randall=20Gellens=20 |Subject:=20Re:=20[imap5]=20Where=20is=20IMAP5=20?|CC:=20 Discussion=20on=20drastically=20slimming-down=20IMAP.=20< imap5@ietf.org>|MIME-Version:=201.0|Content-Type:=20text/ plain=3B=20charset=3D"us-ascii"=3B=20format=3Dflowed |X-Random-Sig-Tag:=201.0b28|X-Originating-IP:=20[172.30.3 9.5]; bh=DCoezGeEcST/U4vLHjAX2ar1YQha/8AhM4ClYcHGGZ8=; b=N23HYhKvu93SZZiy+vODxVtco/SF75uypDUzYTzLXWzRs+6NlsddUfcX 5ZAcZiF9vRGJEZFRRTaWhw43O/BfOUaiv2yO6AXOYM0FECtP4/DbvZfzC 2JZK6iVYqp1+kCzfhSwXPnrL5m0cluuCaXD14BgFRSVtISyls37J+CvBU 4=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5400,1158,6414"; a="104937212" Received: from ironmsg03-l.qualcomm.com ([172.30.48.18]) by wolverine02.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 21 Jul 2011 16:43:47 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,240,1309762800"; d="scan'208";a="52056683" Received: from nasanexhc08.na.qualcomm.com ([172.30.39.7]) by Ironmsg03-L.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 21 Jul 2011 16:43:48 -0700 Received: from loud.pensive.org (172.30.39.5) by qcmail1.qualcomm.com (172.30.39.7) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.0; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 16:43:47 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1311230521.25837.2154184801@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it><20110718190947.G B8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net><1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.mess agingengine.com><4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> <20110720060738.GA6750@brong.net> <1311230521.25837.2154184801@webmail.messagingengine.com> X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 16:39:40 -0700 To: Bron Gondwana , Gilles LAMIRAL From: Randall Gellens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 X-Originating-IP: [172.30.39.5] Cc: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 23:43:49 -0000 At 8:42 AM +0200 7/21/11, Bron Gondwana wrote: > So tell me how it was a disaster precisely? Other than a lack of > capability information meaning clients tried it when it wasn't > supported? Oh, that wasn't a problem. There were more serious security issues (from lashing together different protocols to implementation issues with executing other programs) and a complete lack of support for SMTP extensions. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious. From gilles.lamiral@laposte.net Thu Jul 21 17:49:42 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C39F21F86C2 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 17:49:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qgM1spUQs5dx for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 17:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ks200821.kimsufi.com (ks200821.kimsufi.com [91.121.112.202]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9197C21F86AF for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 17:49:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lamiral.info (lamiral.info [62.147.165.21]) by ks200821.kimsufi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C244521A39; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:49:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (petite.lamiral.info [127.0.0.1]) by lamiral.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D723244047; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:49:37 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E28C920.8090309@laposte.net> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:49:36 +0200 From: Gilles LAMIRAL User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.18) Gecko/20110617 Thunderbird/3.1.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bron Gondwana References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> <1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> <20110720060738.GA6750@brong.net> In-Reply-To: <20110720060738.GA6750@brong.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 00:49:42 -0000 Hello Bron, > Here in Norway, many "post offices" are actually a counter at a > grocery store. This means that you can access the full range of > postal services until 11pm. Coming from Australia where the > post offices kept bank hours, it's quite a cultural difference. > It makes sense - here's somewhere that's already open and that > has similar basic skills and money handling facilities > available, why not use it. Ok. It's available where you live so you can use it. Don't ask all grocery stores of the world to become post offices, it will simply increase difficulty to become a grocer. > Sure in some ideologically pure world you wouldn't even have > supermarkets - you would drive to the farmer's gate to buy > milk, and then drive off to a butcher to get meat and a > greengrocer for vegetables. Funnily enough, people like > supermarkets where they can go do most of their jobs in one > place. Inside the supermarket you don't find meat at the same place than fish and you don't ask fish to the butcher. >> How it was when bandwidth was 33.6 kbps? > It was shit - it's still shit. Just for you. Nobody else cares about halfing bandwith on 1% of email traffic. > I'm really surprised that nobody > actually came up with a solution that wasn't so annoying to > implement that nobody did it. Webmails, Exchange, Notes can implement that. > Whatever. POP doesn't have any way to upload email, so it doesn't > matter anywhere near as much for POP, because you're already not > saving the email back to the server. You probably need a different > solution there. You say it right. One side is sending a message, another one is saving a message. How IMAP could handle all errors than can occur during a email submission? By becoming a SMTP server. In fact, many IMAP servers hosts are not SMTP server hosts that can send correctly any message from a local post, they just know how to deliver locally to the IMAP server. So your proposition requires more configuration and dependencies, not less. >> 50 IMAP current server softwares implementations to be changed and learn >> them how to post locally while every email client software know currently >> how to post anywhere. How good it will be, you deserve a poster! > > The saving will be purely bandwidth, and simplicity for those who > are building both ends and hence can rely on the IMAP software > having this facility. No. How IMAP can submit locally? smtp port? pipe? unix socket? shared memory? forking command? It will oblige IMAP sysadmins to configure IMAP server softwares so they can post locally. More work than configuring a SMTP server independently. > The point is - you don't have to use it, IMAP servers have to support it, and sysadmin too. You really need it? Just hack any imap server software and any email client you use and happiness will come. > but there are benefits large enough to be worth using it. No. If benefits are large enough, code it for yourself. > But - in a crazily common case where you want to store an email to > your sent folder and also send it, this can halve the bandwidth use > and delay to the user. Email sending and saving is done in the background so users never wait. Half bandwidth on sent messages is peanuts. > Er, OK. Hi strawman. Perhaps we should merge every single shop > into one giant Walmart. Except we don't. Internet from my screen is like a giant Walmart. > I'm arguing for the IMAP store to stock a basic delivery method. You arguing for the IMAP store to become a sub-MUA to be used by full-MUA. -- Au revoir, 09 51 84 42 42 Gilles Lamiral. France, Baulon (35580) 06 20 79 76 06 From giovanni@panozzo.it Fri Jul 22 02:01:57 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40FA421F862F for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:01:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.446 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.446 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sDFbpLnOWIqv for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from do2.yuu.it (host166-204-149-62.serverdedicati.aruba.it [62.149.204.166]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A10FB21F8538 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.133.60] (89-96-248-173.ip14.fastwebnet.it [89.96.248.173]) by do2.yuu.it (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D62742D0766 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 11:01:54 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E293C82.80600@panozzo.it> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 11:01:54 +0200 From: Giovanni Panozzo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: imap5@ietf.org References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> <1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> <20110720060738.GA6750@brong.net> <4E28C920.8090309@laposte.net> In-Reply-To: <4E28C920.8090309@laposte.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 09:01:57 -0000 > > Inside the supermarket you don't find meat at the same place > than fish and you don't ask fish to the butcher. But we used the car, find a place to park, walk inside the supermarket one time (and not two). We saved a lot of time and money. Then, inside the supermarket we can talk to the butcher or take fish. I hope the same will happen for IMAP5: one single portocol for access (write less code, configure less parameters), but access more services. >>> How it was when bandwidth was 33.6 kbps? > >> It was shit - it's still shit. > > Just for you. Nobody else cares about halfing bandwith on > 1% of email traffic. I care. Sometimes that 1% traffic is the most expensive traffic you have paid for in the last 3 years. I happened to me last week with my 3G connection and my android. > You say it right. One side is sending a message, another one is > saving a message. How IMAP could handle all errors than can > occur during a email submission? By becoming a SMTP server. Wrong. With UID SUBMIT, IMAP servers will become also SMTP clients, not SMTP servers. We just move SMTP the client logic from the user client to the server. The user can still have all the notifications he likes via the IMAP channel or via a returning DSN. >>> 50 IMAP current server softwares implementations to be changed and learn >>> them how to post locally while every email client software know currently >>> how to post anywhere. How good it will be, you deserve a poster! >> >> The saving will be purely bandwidth, and simplicity for those who >> are building both ends and hence can rely on the IMAP software >> having this facility. > > No. How IMAP can submit locally? smtp port? pipe? unix socket? shared memory? > forking command? It will oblige IMAP sysadmins to configure IMAP server > softwares so they can post locally. More work than configuring > a SMTP server independently. A little configuration work for one person (the server sysadmin) will save a lot of work for the user and helpdesk people to configure SMTP on hundred devices. When we used IMAP+SMTP I lost a lot of time at the phone with the user just to discover that... the network he was using is blocking outgoing SMTP (port 25) and sometimes also blocking SMTPS. Two channels (IMAP+SMTP) creates a lot of user support requests at your helpdesk service. Three channels (IMAP+SMTP+*DAV) means more user support again, because http/https could also be blocked, transparent proxyed and many other horrible things. A *LOT* of user support at the phone. This is one of the points because my IT chiefs decided to move to Blackberries or ActiveSync in the last 5 years. End user configuration and support ! From jkt@flaska.net Fri Jul 22 02:19:51 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C5221F86BD for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:19:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.65 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.65 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id au2vGNINCqPa for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:19:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from serv132.fzu.cz (serv132.fzu.cz [147.231.26.132]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6762021F86B9 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:19:49 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AmIFAKo/KU6T5xpZgWdsb2JhbABThEqTcI8JFAEBFiYliH6qT5ELhTCBDwSNdYR5hQeLWg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,246,1309730400"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="1490435" Received: from freja.fzu.cz ([147.231.26.89]) by serv147.fzu.cz with ESMTP; 22 Jul 2011 11:19:47 +0200 Received: from [192.168.1.250] (unknown [94.230.152.5]) by freja.fzu.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A03C53DA8C for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 11:19:47 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E2940AE.7030406@flaska.net> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 11:19:42 +0200 From: =?UTF-8?B?SmFuIEt1bmRyw6F0?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.12) Gecko/20101027 Thunderbird/3.1.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: imap5@ietf.org References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> <1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> <20110720060738.GA6750@brong.net> <4E28C920.8090309@laposte.net> <4E293C82.80600@panozzo.it> In-Reply-To: <4E293C82.80600@panozzo.it> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigA979FC2636A531EAA9614F67" Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 09:19:51 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigA979FC2636A531EAA9614F67 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 07/22/11 11:01, Giovanni Panozzo wrote: >> No. How IMAP can submit locally? smtp port? pipe? unix socket? shared >> memory? >> forking command? It will oblige IMAP sysadmins to configure IMAP serve= r >> softwares so they can post locally. More work than configuring >> a SMTP server independently. >=20 > A little configuration work for one person (the server sysadmin) will > save a lot of work for the user and helpdesk people to configure SMTP o= n > hundred devices. When we used IMAP+SMTP I lost a lot of time at the > phone with the user just to discover that... the network he was using i= s > blocking outgoing SMTP (port 25) and sometimes also blocking SMTPS. In addition to that, as someone in this thread already mentioned, if your IMAP server supports server-side filtering via Sieve, the Sieve implementation already has to support mail submission. I believe that it can be assumed that if someone runs an IMAP server, she also has access to a properly configured MTA for mail delivery. Configuring, say, a Postfix instance to relay e-mail from the IMAP box to the already existing MTA can be done by an average sysadmin in less than five minutes. I'd be surprised if other platforms made this harder. Cheers, Jan --=20 Trojita, a fast e-mail client -- http://trojita.flaska.net/ --------------enigA979FC2636A531EAA9614F67 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk4pQLMACgkQamXfqERyJRdE8gCdGcR2NgYcKmVchVcnEsllNvqv 1o0AnjUb2AoDe1oS/GpiNa5exuHMkIoy =hj3e -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigA979FC2636A531EAA9614F67-- From filip.navara@gmail.com Fri Jul 22 02:24:26 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76E8721F86AE for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:24:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.329 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.329 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.030, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RhVXmW29D7s2 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:24:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qw0-f44.google.com (mail-qw0-f44.google.com [209.85.216.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9F2021F867A for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qwc23 with SMTP id 23so1687946qwc.31 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:24:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qcHXrQKS8fqXPbeeRDxUBuMNcdK1pf9GoAsUYol1O9E=; b=wxlyqYsAcVI4r33wflv4IKeyNvj4E5jryzlcNPDb/JOxU6RxLpD2ALNdAifPhu0pEs 7gf6xFswY73YWOi1QoYwKpuXyW6J+1UGSXYDg+3tqY5B47oPShl/xRVUzNvNzRra4ab9 7OnSOogfAbVR5KysykCyFwFRtnMYYOGVx3S/s= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.44.14 with SMTP id y14mr1076106qce.110.1311326665006; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.34.77 with HTTP; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:24:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4E2940AE.7030406@flaska.net> References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> <1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> <20110720060738.GA6750@brong.net> <4E28C920.8090309@laposte.net> <4E293C82.80600@panozzo.it> <4E2940AE.7030406@flaska.net> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 11:24:24 +0200 Message-ID: From: Filip Navara To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan_Kundr=E1t?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 09:24:26 -0000 On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Jan Kundr=E1t wrote: [snip] > I believe that it can be assumed that if someone runs an IMAP server, > she also has access to a properly configured MTA for mail delivery. In most cases, yes. In cases where the IMAP server is used for accessing archives then there's no MTA usually. Similarly, Evernote used to have IMAP gateway that allowed accessing notes stored on the server and there was no MTA. Best regards, Filip Navara From jkt@flaska.net Fri Jul 22 02:31:05 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC1B821F86B1 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:31:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.85 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.85 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V7iQxbVFkZWx for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:31:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from serv132.fzu.cz (serv132.fzu.cz [147.231.26.132]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D246121F86A6 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:31:04 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AiAFAARCKU6T5xpZgWdsb2JhbABThEyTcY8LFAEBFiYliH6qQ5ELhTCBDwSNdYR5hQeLWg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,246,1309730400"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="1490526" Received: from freja.fzu.cz ([147.231.26.89]) by serv147.fzu.cz with ESMTP; 22 Jul 2011 11:31:03 +0200 Received: from [192.168.1.250] (unknown [94.230.152.5]) by freja.fzu.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 313C33DA8C for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 11:31:03 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E294356.10905@flaska.net> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 11:31:02 +0200 From: =?UTF-8?B?SmFuIEt1bmRyw6F0?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.12) Gecko/20101027 Thunderbird/3.1.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: imap5@ietf.org References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> <1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> <20110720060738.GA6750@brong.net> <4E28C920.8090309@laposte.net> <4E293C82.80600@panozzo.it> <4E2940AE.7030406@flaska.net> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig438B1628376216C06D9C420D" Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 09:31:05 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig438B1628376216C06D9C420D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 07/22/11 11:24, Filip Navara wrote: > In most cases, yes. >=20 > In cases where the IMAP server is used for accessing archives then > there's no MTA usually. Similarly, Evernote used to have IMAP gateway > that allowed accessing notes stored on the server and there was no > MTA. One could argue that IMAP servers fulfilling similar roles should simply return a NO to the DELIVER/SEND/SUBMIT/SENDMAIL/... command to indicate to the user that message submission has to take place elsewhere. Or not advertise that extension at all, if it's an extension and not a core feature. Cheers, Jan --=20 Trojita, a fast e-mail client -- http://trojita.flaska.net/ --------------enig438B1628376216C06D9C420D Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk4pQ1cACgkQamXfqERyJRc7cgCghleYDWV7uezLQzH6aS31khB7 GnoAn373h5o2bQifvYWm6GvWrBcJRfPp =tzjW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig438B1628376216C06D9C420D-- From tss@iki.fi Fri Jul 22 02:59:03 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4414421F86E9 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:59:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LtghUsrhm8kF for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dovecot.org (dovecot.org [193.210.130.67]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAF3F21F86C4 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 02:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.10.2] (a88-112-255-76.elisa-laajakaista.fi [88.112.255.76]) by dovecot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57EBB1AE8386 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 12:59:04 +0300 (EEST) From: Timo Sirainen To: imap5@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <4E294356.10905@flaska.net> References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> <1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> <20110720060738.GA6750@brong.net> <4E28C920.8090309@laposte.net> <4E293C82.80600@panozzo.it> <4E2940AE.7030406@flaska.net> <4E294356.10905@flaska.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-15" Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 12:59:00 +0300 Message-ID: <1311328740.10421.1182.camel@hurina> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.32.2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 09:59:03 -0000 On Fri, 2011-07-22 at 11:31 +0200, Jan Kundrát wrote: > On 07/22/11 11:24, Filip Navara wrote: > > In most cases, yes. > > > > In cases where the IMAP server is used for accessing archives then > > there's no MTA usually. Similarly, Evernote used to have IMAP gateway > > that allowed accessing notes stored on the server and there was no > > MTA. > > One could argue that IMAP servers fulfilling similar roles should simply > return a NO to the DELIVER/SEND/SUBMIT/SENDMAIL/... command to indicate > to the user that message submission has to take place elsewhere. Or not > advertise that extension at all, if it's an extension and not a core > feature. Such servers would fail APPEND anyway, so they couldn't even get that far.. From brong@fastmail.fm Fri Jul 22 03:07:21 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80B4A21F86B3 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 03:07:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.502, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CauvmS7I0+vf for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 03:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5.smtp.messagingengine.com (out5.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A285921F85A3 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 03:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.46]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC68720A2E; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 06:07:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend2.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.161]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 22 Jul 2011 06:07:19 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id :references:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :in-reply-to; s=smtpout; bh=Dey+P2d3cvduoz6wVCeaQkcAczI=; b=Iy+q VHqbQHXXg3uPxK3SCv5Om21J/eK4kmS0OHki3ciZYhI8ag78fO2fH8UonIQw1PdE z15daE71kw5jUkqcyc5FOt9JOm0OST9SsWk8RCj0Ry9oDlqcdZNP3diY5ViwWssG O6GV/nUEtTv0HVyI6QV/tF8g7GrrDw8ZJUzpRQk= X-Sasl-enc: y8WA7gsUIxdZuYbd1TOC9ccAPceQp2ctzF4Ti9C/rdSw 1311329238 Received: from localhost (unknown [193.69.12.229]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C26E8453064; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 06:07:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4206820320; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 12:07:13 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 12:07:13 +0200 From: Bron Gondwana To: Filip Navara Message-ID: <20110722100713.GA17855@brong.net> References: <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> <1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> <20110720060738.GA6750@brong.net> <4E28C920.8090309@laposte.net> <4E293C82.80600@panozzo.it> <4E2940AE.7030406@flaska.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: Organization: brong.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 10:07:21 -0000 On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 11:24:24AM +0200, Filip Navara wrote: > On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Jan Kundrát wrote: > [snip] > > I believe that it can be assumed that if someone runs an IMAP server, > > she also has access to a properly configured MTA for mail delivery. > > In most cases, yes. > > In cases where the IMAP server is used for accessing archives then > there's no MTA usually. Similarly, Evernote used to have IMAP gateway > that allowed accessing notes stored on the server and there was no > MTA. So don't advertise the SUBMIT or DELIVER or whatever you want to call it capability and the client will know it can't send email through that connection. Not rocket science. Bron. From filip.navara@gmail.com Fri Jul 22 03:16:53 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8781A21F8748 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 03:16:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.474 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.474 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.125, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2zDcUw3UGCA0 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 03:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qw0-f44.google.com (mail-qw0-f44.google.com [209.85.216.44]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8B7821F8751 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 03:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qwc23 with SMTP id 23so1716806qwc.31 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 03:16:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qjtXET+imFvMacNUCoLYfdWyaADEqfdEEG4WhmCDUoQ=; b=w0e+MerAk+aO32938UQUQWkzbcsBXo5MZF7nsezhhPwCGE/1jomLHwWVskvTdGrWVE WbKTGW78Ai0kuOG/e4fGO2MZO+lyVq3rUa8tGRBJrEiCYL7hnKXxl1gs7Z1ZcLrGX6HJ JXPdRnTsNODbWNVq0EPEYi/Q1mPJ6QHWFKHoc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.25.212 with SMTP id a20mr1100222qcc.148.1311329811419; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 03:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.34.77 with HTTP; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 03:16:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20110722100713.GA17855@brong.net> References: <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> <1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> <20110720060738.GA6750@brong.net> <4E28C920.8090309@laposte.net> <4E293C82.80600@panozzo.it> <4E2940AE.7030406@flaska.net> <20110722100713.GA17855@brong.net> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 12:16:51 +0200 Message-ID: From: Filip Navara To: Bron Gondwana Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 10:16:53 -0000 On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Bron Gondwana wrote: > On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 11:24:24AM +0200, Filip Navara wrote: >> On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Jan Kundr=E1t wrote: >> [snip] >> > I believe that it can be assumed that if someone runs an IMAP server, >> > she also has access to a properly configured MTA for mail delivery. >> >> In most cases, yes. >> >> In cases where the IMAP server is used for accessing archives then >> there's no MTA usually. Similarly, Evernote used to have IMAP gateway >> that allowed accessing notes stored on the server and there was no >> MTA. > > So don't advertise the SUBMIT or DELIVER or whatever you want to call > it capability and the client will know it can't send email through > that connection. =A0Not rocket science. Sure, I just wanted to remind people that there are other use cases. I remember that someone was proposing SUBMIT to be mandatory and that's definitely not a good idea. Best regards, Filip Navara From brong@fastmail.fm Fri Jul 22 03:40:58 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 056F321F87C3 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 03:40:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.223 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.223 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.376, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X092j7-ng0sQ for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 03:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5.smtp.messagingengine.com (out5.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6156D21F85F1 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 03:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.46]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D516D20CD4; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 06:40:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend2.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.161]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 22 Jul 2011 06:40:56 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id :references:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :in-reply-to; s=smtpout; bh=e86eQckL8cFJd9SiIgXQZ9jNwQw=; b=iXqo NWZt6memRtup2vIatdNutXZzpC6Vi79MwjUhLc64l4vgEZHd+y7PdN0Cph0VZjRl K8f4Wyk82lwhKJYg7xTQ3n2WfEA0+jmfRZcTuQ1pA2ZwRytiBVwtWBoTcRBkBnFE /9pVo0TLjvgxjwF5wR2kn7B45TDZUgDy8SrjS1Y= X-Sasl-enc: LDeGz/wUgQbH8oNzw425LHjpo7/MYJL11/AYQZgmDFHE 1311331255 Received: from localhost (unknown [193.69.12.229]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4EE384526BF; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 06:40:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 99FA720320; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 12:40:48 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 12:40:48 +0200 From: Bron Gondwana To: Filip Navara Message-ID: <20110722104048.GA18136@brong.net> References: <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> <1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> <20110720060738.GA6750@brong.net> <4E28C920.8090309@laposte.net> <4E293C82.80600@panozzo.it> <4E2940AE.7030406@flaska.net> <20110722100713.GA17855@brong.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: Organization: brong.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 10:40:58 -0000 On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 12:16:51PM +0200, Filip Navara wrote: > On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Bron Gondwana wrote: > > So don't advertise the SUBMIT or DELIVER or whatever you want to call > > it capability and the client will know it can't send email through > > that connection.  Not rocket science. > > Sure, I just wanted to remind people that there are other use cases. > > I remember that someone was proposing SUBMIT to be mandatory and > that's definitely not a good idea. Absolutely. I don't think it should be mandatory, I just haven't seen those arguing against it come up with another solution which is easy enough to implement (client and server) that it has gained serious traction. Meaning that end-users are still in multi-protocol double-bandwidth-use hell. Bron. From arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no Fri Jul 22 03:52:45 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC4A821F8663 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 03:52:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G46PoAPt6SV7 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 03:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from strange.aox.org (strange.aox.org [IPv6:2001:4d88:100c::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A32221F865F for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 03:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fri.gulbrandsen.priv.no (kalyani.aox.org [79.140.39.164]) by strange.aox.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99848FA00D3; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 10:52:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no by fri.gulbrandsen.priv.no (Archiveopteryx 3.1.3) with esmtpsa id 1311331962-1279-1278/9/949; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 12:52:42 +0200 Message-Id: <4E29567A.8010601@gulbrandsen.priv.no> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 12:52:42 +0200 From: Arnt Gulbrandsen Organization: Me, http://arnt.gulbrandsen.priv.no User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.18) Gecko/20110617 Thunderbird/3.1.11 Mime-Version: 1.0 To: imap5@ietf.org References: <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> <20110720060738.GA6750@brong.net> <1311230521.25837.2154184801@webmail.messagingengine.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 10:52:46 -0000 On 07/22/2011 01:39 AM, Randall Gellens wrote: > Oh, that wasn't a problem. There were more serious security issues (from > lashing together different protocols to implementation issues with > executing other programs) and a complete lack of support for SMTP > extensions. Sieves send mail, and appear not to have these problems to a bothersome degree. So I tentatively posit that today, an extension can be designed well enough to avoid significant pain and complaints. Arnt From gilles.lamiral@laposte.net Sat Jul 23 17:34:46 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C52121F8B6E for ; Sat, 23 Jul 2011 17:34:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_44=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6d3-MK7nfV4s for ; Sat, 23 Jul 2011 17:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ks200821.kimsufi.com (ks200821.kimsufi.com [91.121.112.202]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B5421F8AA8 for ; Sat, 23 Jul 2011 17:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lamiral.info (lamiral.info [62.147.165.21]) by ks200821.kimsufi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AE16520A72; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 02:34:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (petite.lamiral.info [127.0.0.1]) by lamiral.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CDAA244047; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 02:34:41 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E2B68A1.5030301@laposte.net> Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 02:34:41 +0200 From: Gilles LAMIRAL User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.18) Gecko/20110617 Thunderbird/3.1.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giovanni Panozzo References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> <1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> <20110720060738.GA6750@brong.net> <4E28C920.8090309@laposte.net> <4E293C82.80600@panozzo.it> In-Reply-To: <4E293C82.80600@panozzo.it> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 00:34:46 -0000 Hello, >> Inside the supermarket you don't find meat at the same place >> than fish and you don't ask fish to the butcher. > > But we used the car, find a place to park, walk inside the supermarket one time (and not two). > We saved a lot of time and money. Then, inside the supermarket we can talk to the butcher or take fish. No at all. With Internet the car is your screen and it doesn't care to deal with one or more supermarkets, you don't save lot of time and money adressing several supermarkets or small stores, you save small peanuts. > I hope the same will happen for IMAP5: one single protocol for access (write less code, > configure less parameters), but access more services. Easy: just write a Meta-protocol or meta-service or proxy-anything, accessing each service and make it accessible like you want. It will be simpler, faster, respecting the good old standards and it will be optional. The Silver Bullet? Even in supermarkets there are specialists and no one can replace each other. It's easier to change one specialist than the whole supermarket. Don't ask IMAP to become a supermarket. > I care. Sometimes that 1% traffic is the most expensive traffic you have paid for in the last 3 years. > I happened to me last week with my 3G connection and my android. Be honest, what you paid is Spam and Fun videos. Don't ask IMAP to solve the payment method of your Internet access, it's not the good store to solve that issue, ask your 3G connector. >> You say it right. One side is sending a message, another one is >> saving a message. How IMAP could handle all errors than can >> occur during a email submission? By becoming a SMTP server. > > Wrong. With UID SUBMIT, IMAP servers will become also SMTP clients, not SMTP servers. > We just move SMTP the client logic from the user client to the server. > The user can still have all the notifications he likes via the IMAP channel or via a returning DSN. Ok. It's what I said elsewhere, you ask IMAP to be a sub-MUA that have to do a little of what full-MUAs already master. You ask IMAP to become a proxy. So you like proxy. Write one. > A little configuration work for one person (the server sysadmin) will save a lot of work > for the user and helpdesk people to configure SMTP on hundred devices. When we used IMAP+SMTP > I lost a lot of time at the phone with the user just to discover that... the network he > was using is blocking outgoing SMTP (port 25) and sometimes also blocking SMTPS. And you might know why those ports are blocked: Spam and mail-bombing. So when IMAP will be able to post messages the next port to be blocked will be the IMAP port for exactly the same reasons: Spam and mail-bombing. > Two channels (IMAP+SMTP) creates a lot of user support requests at your helpdesk service. It's just marketing incompetence. Just provide products with already configured mailboxes, it's what have done all Internet access providers, they now provide Internet access via boxes already or automatically configured. Ask your bosses to think. > Three channels (IMAP+SMTP+*DAV) means more user support again, because http/https could also be blocked, So you may be talking about another thing than Internet access here. > transparent proxyed and many other horrible things. A *LOT* of user support at the phone. This is not IMAP related issues. > This is one of the points because my IT chiefs decided to move to Blackberries or > ActiveSync in the last 5 years. End user configuration and support ! So be happy to leave IMAP, why are you arguing? -- Au revoir, 09 51 84 42 42 Gilles Lamiral. France, Baulon (35580) 06 20 79 76 06 From giovanni@panozzo.it Sun Jul 24 02:56:06 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38BE421F8B33 for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 02:56:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.746 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.746 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TjzhMaK6y8k7 for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 02:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from do2.yuu.it (host166-204-149-62.serverdedicati.aruba.it [62.149.204.166]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F50921F8B30 for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 02:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.56.3] (nav-01.panozzo.it [88.149.172.182]) by do2.yuu.it (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EC5A82CFEE9 for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 11:56:02 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E2BEC32.8070003@panozzo.it> Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 11:56:02 +0200 From: Giovanni Panozzo User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; it; rv:1.9.2.18) Gecko/20110616 Thunderbird/3.1.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: imap5@ietf.org References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> <1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> <20110720060738.GA6750@brong.net> <4E28C920.8090309@laposte.net> <4E293C82.80600@panozzo.it> <4E2B68A1.5030301@laposte.net> In-Reply-To: <4E2B68A1.5030301@laposte.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 09:56:06 -0000 >> I hope the same will happen for IMAP5: one single protocol for access (write less code, >> configure less parameters), but access more services. > > Easy: just write a Meta-protocol or meta-service or proxy-anything, > accessing each service and make it accessible like you want. > It will be simpler, faster, respecting the good old standards > and it will be optional. The Silver Bullet? In this ML we are talking about standards, not of my own, self written, I use only for me and my customers, proxy. (should I also write my proxy client for thunderbird, K9, outlook, windows live mail, Mail.app, iOS and all the imap clients I know of ???) >> I care. Sometimes that 1% traffic is the most expensive traffic you have paid for in the last 3 years. >> I happened to me last week with my 3G connection and my android. > > Be honest, what you paid is Spam and Fun videos. Believe me: NO. It was a mix of: - Try to send a too big attachment with K9 for android. K9 does an APPEND to Trash folder of IMAP (100MB gone) before doing SMTP - K9 not implemented ESMTP SIZE, so it tryed to send 40MB of ESMTP and then stopped. This happened at least 4 times. (I already filed a BUG on K9 ML to add ESMTP SIZE support) - This wasted all my prepaid weekly paid traffic (250MB) - and after fnishing prepaid traffic, i payed for extra 10 euros just for SMTP retries Yes, it's a K9 problem and a stupid user (me) problem. But HERE in this ML we should discuss for STANDARDS which will would also help to avoid these things happens. The lack of a standard in the correct sequence of events (APPEND berfore SMTP or SMTP before APPEND) generates small confusions, helpdesk requests, human errors. > Ok. It's what I said elsewhere, you ask IMAP to be a sub-MUA that have to do > a little of what full-MUAs already master. You ask IMAP to become > a proxy. So you like proxy. Write one. Mmm... so "google webmail" is a proxy ? I think it's too simplistic to call it "a proxy". And as I said above, we are discussing of standards and I'm here to try to make people's life easier. My "proxy" will be only an extra piece of software to mantain, debug, fix in the long chain from the user to the mail storage. Which will never be able to speak with ohter clients or servers. > And you might know why those ports are blocked: Spam and mail-bombing. > So when IMAP will be able to post messages the next port to be blocked will be > the IMAP port for exactly the same reasons: Spam and mail-bombing. SPAM is mostly based on unauthenthicated SMTP. IMAP requires user autentication. So it's very simple to find the sender and block its account or report to the police. >> Two channels (IMAP+SMTP) creates a lot of user support requests at your helpdesk service. > > It's just marketing incompetence. Just provide products with already configured > mailboxes, it's what have done all Internet access providers, they now provide > Internet access via boxes already or automatically configured. > Ask your bosses to think. Again: in this ML we are talking about standards. 3 differents ISP will produce 3 different incompatible boxes. This will not let the user to freely switch e-mail provider. And e-mail is not only the ISP one, but also internal corporate servers, for both big corporate and small offices. > >> Three channels (IMAP+SMTP+*DAV) means more user support again, because http/https could also be blocked, > > So you may be talking about another thing than Internet access here. Really I don't known where you work or live, but here at home I can have FULL internet access. Inside corporate LANS I have LIMITED access. LIMITED means different forms of limitations (sometimes closed ports, sometimes https/http traffic is content inspected and filtered...) A client which can do everything on a single channel has a bigger chanche to work than a client that requeres three different channels. > >> transparent proxyed and many other horrible things. A *LOT* of user support at the phone. > > This is not IMAP related issues. > >> This is one of the points because my IT chiefs decided to move to Blackberries or >> ActiveSync in the last 5 years. End user configuration and support ! > > So be happy to leave IMAP, why are you arguing? > Again: I'm writing in this ML in hope for STANDARDIZATION, because I think that a new but more complete standard will make people life easier than having many different one (BB vs ActiveSync vs SyncML vs SMTP+IMAP+CalDAV+CardDav+Sieve...). From brong@fastmail.fm Sun Jul 24 04:17:25 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6236921F8B14 for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 04:17:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DerKX9vFduN1 for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 04:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out2.smtp.messagingengine.com (out2.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 397DE21F855C for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 04:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.43]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61CC420F66; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 07:17:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend2.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.161]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 24 Jul 2011 07:17:23 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id :references:mime-version:content-type:in-reply-to; s=smtpout; bh=HpM5jqhcdoL9jZNy5giB525HD+4=; b=S7OufLq0adVrh+HtLkLwIKqH1ciE o7h1VmUtyUute2JDlVcAAz3Zt9i/PPrGdlww25g9XkVC+7qHSt1cEqmQ8z5a7h0t qZOciu1B3Uy1T0EQItLHWfijFC8767MsM4Qqzhyino7kLp3lIupzynmRFipJ2JSA UIXXI5kg2lnhhLg= X-Sasl-enc: cRUhtRoUixRlRDggJniH4glgrqH/4tBEi1PeJ9xmMt/9 1311506242 Received: from localhost (ip-55-31-179-93.dialup.ice.net [93.179.31.55]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 792AE45284D; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 07:17:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0B57520372; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 13:16:55 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 13:16:55 +0200 From: Bron Gondwana To: Gilles LAMIRAL Message-ID: <20110724111655.GA3048@brong.net> References: <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> <1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> <20110720060738.GA6750@brong.net> <4E28C920.8090309@laposte.net> <4E293C82.80600@panozzo.it> <4E2B68A1.5030301@laposte.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4E2B68A1.5030301@laposte.net> Organization: brong.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 11:17:25 -0000 On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 02:34:41AM +0200, Gilles LAMIRAL wrote: > Be honest, what you paid is Spam and Fun videos. > Don't ask IMAP to solve the payment method of your Internet access, > it's not the good store to solve that issue, ask your 3G connector. And this attitude is why shit like Skype succeeds over a whole pile of open alternatives. Because they solve people's problems, while everyone else says "blame your ISP for not giving you a fixed IP address, go configure your router to forward ports, go choose one of a bunch of random providers and figure out their signup process and how to connect to them". Skype says "what username would you like, what password would you like, optionally fill in some details so your friends can find you easier" - congratulations, you're connected. Now, here's a test you can use to make sure all your stuff outside our control (sound, video, etc) is working correctly. 30s later, congratulations, you're up and running. Now would you like to search for some people you know? 5 minutes and you're video chatting to a friend. That's what most people want - to be able to chat to the friend. If we're busy saying "no, we won't solve your problem for you, and we don't think your problem is the kind of problem that smart informed people should have anyway" then people flock elsewhere. Why do I want to stay with IMAP? Because it's the closest to a decent non-realtime communication tool out there. It gives pretty good reading access to email, and a quite usable centralised store that you can still cache locally and access fast. A well set up IMAP account is accessible from your desktop, your webmail and your phone (decent Android software pending) and an action taken on any of them is reflected on the others. All the competitors in this space suck more, and I kind of hoped that in the 10 years I've been caring about this that someone would have solved the bits of IMAP that suck for me and for most of the people _I_ deal with. They might not be the same ones you deal with, but in years of working Uni helpdesk, running the email systems for a company and now running an email service for regular users, client configuration and SMTP injection being on a separate channel have been one of the biggest headaches. A massive bonus of doing submission down exactly the same channel is that most of the time either nothing is working, or everything is working. A large source of support headaches is one of IMAP or SMTP being unavailable for whatever reason, and the other being available - confusing users when half their actions succeed and the other half fail. Bron. From mrc+ietf@panda.com Sun Jul 24 23:13:59 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9BE621F8AE9 for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 23:13:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.532 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.532 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.068, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7rRRWMaNQEML for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 23:13:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Panda.COM (panda.com [206.124.149.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C45AF21F8A64 for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 23:13:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Panda.COM ([192.107.14.50]) with ESMTP via TCP; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 23:13:56 -0700 X-MailFrom: mrc+ietf@panda.com Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 23:13:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: imap5@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20110724111655.GA3048@brong.net> Message-ID: References: <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> <1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> <20110720060738.GA6750@brong.net> <4E28C920.8090309@laposte.net> <4E293C82.80600@panozzo.it> <4E2B68A1.5030301@laposte.net> <20110724111655.GA3048@brong.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 06:13:59 -0000 On Sun, 24 Jul 2011, Bron Gondwana wrote: > And this attitude is why shit like Skype succeeds over a whole pile > of open alternatives. Skype is a proprietary system, with complete control over all agents that use it. It's easy to make things work if nobody else can write an implementation, and all users use the products that you produce. You don't have to worry about some cretin producing an implementation that doesn't interoperate and falsely blaming your implementation for the problem. All you have to do then is convince users to use your system. That does mean that you have to have enough dough to fund the development costs for a complete suite of implementations for a variety of platforms. That sounds like the type of development environment you would be happiest in. Send your resume to Microsoft. > Skype says "what username would you like, what password would you > like, optionally fill in some details so your friends can find you > easier" - congratulations, you're connected. Skype can do this because there is NO other way to use Skype except for the Official Skype Way. Skype doesn't have to offer extensions or facilities for other implementors; if the official Skype implementation does not do it, it can't be done. There are huge simplifications possible when this is done. But even then, it doesn't always work. Getting Skype to work on Linux (and to a lesser extent, Windows) can be a major headache because the audio and/or video systems have unpredictable configuration issues depending upon what hardware and driver software is installed. It's not so hard on Mac since Apple simply doesn't let you put arbitrary hardware on a Mac...if Apple doesn't have a driver for it then lotsa luck getting one. > Why do I want to stay with IMAP? Because it's the closest to a > decent non-realtime communication tool out there. In that case, you should respect the judgement of the people who made it that way. > All the competitors in this space suck more Then why do you sing their praises? Have you considered why they suck? Have you considered that making IMAP be like them would make IMAP suck like them? > but in years of working Uni helpdesk, running the email systems for > a company and now running an email service for regular users, client > configuration and SMTP injection being on a separate channel have > been one of the biggest headaches. Then build a proxy, and a client for your proxy. The exercise would be a good educational experience for you. It will teach you why your ideas are wrong-headed, and do so without causing harm to everything/everybody else. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. From brong@fastmail.fm Sun Jul 24 23:56:34 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B08021F88DC for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 23:56:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.600, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vOF76clv2hTq for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 23:56:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4.smtp.messagingengine.com (out4.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADFC521F87BC for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 23:56:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.41]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BCD3208C6; Mon, 25 Jul 2011 02:56:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend2.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.161]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 25 Jul 2011 02:56:33 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:to:subject:references:date :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:from:message-id :in-reply-to; s=smtpout; bh=PAh4z85QdwYa5DhXfLdKIt3iMJU=; b=DmdV VWu48fyBkfckpceV4mU90KePaWKRDSLSESQQe2UkJsKlvUsHZAWN968nD5BWeL3N yav0zkLA0HlA7BFcu1JKV4NDr9eDpHDcxHdAx7Xo47PmsJHKNnGUsKoFKTbKjVme 6FgGNSss6sf4Tpio68FzKtQNyct7fqoOC3N8adQ= X-Sasl-enc: eFY9EbQvpKqyji0wUp6bJMqE6mI2yT3ToGaAk56JhBW+ 1311576992 Received: from arbre.eng.oslo.osa (pat-tdc.opera.com [213.236.208.22]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B6E5F454144; Mon, 25 Jul 2011 02:56:32 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes To: imap5@ietf.org, "Mark Crispin" References: <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> <1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> <20110720060738.GA6750@brong.net> <4E28C920.8090309@laposte.net> <4E293C82.80600@panozzo.it> <4E2B68A1.5030301@laposte.net> <20110724111655.GA3048@brong.net> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 08:56:46 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bron Gondwana" Organization: FastMail.FM Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera Mail/11.50 (Linux) Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 06:56:34 -0000 On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 08:13:54 +0200, Mark Crispin wrote: > On Sun, 24 Jul 2011, Bron Gondwana wrote: >> And this attitude is why shit like Skype succeeds over a whole pile >> of open alternatives. > > Skype is a proprietary system, with complete control over all agents that > use it. It's easy to make things work if nobody else can write an > implementation, and all users use the products that you produce. You > don't have to worry about some cretin producing an implementation that > doesn't interoperate and falsely blaming your implementation for the > problem. Test suites are good for that, so the theory goes. It seems to be slowly working in the web browser space, though they have a much greater challenge of incompatible implementations to work through. But the existence of test suites that spit out a "score" at the end is causing competition to be correct. >> All the competitors in this space suck more > > Then why do you sing their praises? I'm not singing their praises, I'm observing their success and the demand for them from our customers. One of the most common requests we get from customers is integrated calendaring and "ActiveSync". They don't necessarily want a specific protocol, they want something which solves their problems. They only know of that protocol because they see other people using it, and stuff seems to just work for them. > Have you considered why they suck? Apart from the fact that they were only ever designed around one implementation? > Have you considered that making IMAP be like them would make IMAP suck > like them? Yes I have. But I don't see that having a way to fast resync a folder after it's been renamed, or to move a bunch of messages in one go without hitting quota limits is "making is suck". Deliver is slightly more interesting, but I still think this is a Hurd vs Linux dilema, and I'm firmly on the Linux side of that argument. Microkernels may be cleaner in theory, but 22 years later I think it's pretty clear that it failed to produce the theoretically expected results. >> but in years of working Uni helpdesk, running the email systems for >> a company and now running an email service for regular users, client >> configuration and SMTP injection being on a separate channel have >> been one of the biggest headaches. > > Then build a proxy, and a client for your proxy. > > The exercise would be a good educational experience for you. It will > teach you why your ideas are wrong-headed, and do so without causing harm > to everything/everybody else. I already did that for COMPRESS - though that's an admittedly very simple case. I can tell you right now that building a proxy for MOVE would be an exercise in serious fuckedupedness, since the whole point is that you avoid the quota limitations that mean users get "over quota" when trying to move messages due to the design of the underlying store, which is non-intuitive and actively hostile to their expectations. A proxy would have to either have the ability to double the quota for the duration of the move, or talk an enhanced-IMAP[tm] to the backend so that the quota could be disabled for this action. The deliver stuff could of course be handled by a proxy, no problem at all - either at append time or later pulling a message from the IMAP store and dumping it to sendmail. Either way we have an authenticated user to pass to '-f' to get the envelope sender correct. And if the proxy had enough local storage, it could emulate the DIGEST and GUID stuff too. Obviously it's much more expensive to the user to calculate the SHA1 (or whatever) on a thousand messages as they get fetched for the first time than it is to calculate them on delivery, but an aggressive enough proxy could iterate over all the mailboxes on the server doing a STATUS call and then fetch anything new on a regular basis, so only the most recent messages needed to be digested. As it is - we're already building a JSON API which wraps a QRESYNC/CONDSTORE enabled IMAP server along with a bunch of extra stuff that we've added into Cyrus. So far it's only used by our web interface, but over time it will be extended into other clients Opera is involved with. Due to the complexity of MOVE (see above) it doesn't do the quota dance, but it already handles the other bits and pieces, including GUID based caching which catches renames more cleanly. Bron. From randy@qualcomm.com Mon Jul 25 18:49:40 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A071311E80EA for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2011 18:49:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8GP0PaaywHE6 for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2011 18:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine01.qualcomm.com (wolverine01.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.254]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7773511E80DF for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2011 18:49:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=randy@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1311644979; x=1343180979; h=message-id:x-mailer:date:to:from:subject:mime-version: content-type:x-random-sig-tag:x-originating-ip; z=Message-ID:=20 |X-Mailer:=20Eudora=20for=20Mac=20OS=20X|Date:=20Mon,=202 5=20Jul=202011=2018:42:13=20-0700|To:=20Giovanni=20Panozz o=20,=20|From:=20Ran dall=20Gellens=20|Subject:=20Re:=20[i map5]=20Where=20is=20IMAP5=20?|MIME-Version:=201.0 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3D"us-ascii"=3B =20format=3Dflowed|X-Random-Sig-Tag:=201.0b28 |X-Originating-IP:=20[172.30.39.5]; bh=wcABX+Glxp9GqBxta4Fjdf4u+gnoGERdY/ZZ2dmXzRg=; b=PvS2/VVifoOjd7W37X+VE4mTHfIF20asaxZejcSJqg6VTA7stZC3QukB wul4fbhOY44LB34cQ8UTfoaxixzAi0sFjC9NZ+9UROZURy1gHVnIzac+S 37vpbAiibXMEQJ7ynzGJ+wdxRMZBCNHtUqx+fEdEOGRNIfLQrkITzy2Jr M=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5400,1158,6418"; a="105869299" Received: from ironmsg04-l.qualcomm.com ([172.30.48.19]) by wolverine01.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 25 Jul 2011 18:49:39 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,261,1309762800"; d="scan'208";a="53160884" Received: from nasanexhc07.na.qualcomm.com ([172.30.39.190]) by Ironmsg04-L.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 25 Jul 2011 18:49:39 -0700 Received: from [130.129.83.90] (172.30.39.5) by qcmail1.qualcomm.com (172.30.39.190) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.0; Mon, 25 Jul 2011 18:49:38 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 18:42:13 -0700 To: Giovanni Panozzo , From: Randall Gellens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 X-Originating-IP: [172.30.39.5] Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 01:49:40 -0000 At 11:32 AM +0200 7/20/11, Giovanni Panozzo wrote: > If the client program only asks "just give me > your email address and your passord", your client and your protocol will > gain a new user. Eudora implemented exactly this (auto configuration) many years ago, using ACAP. I honestly thought it would be greeted with joyous celebration and acclaim by users, help desk agents, administrators, and others, as ushering in a new era of ease-of-use and reduced support costs. Wow, was I wrong. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- Your analyst has you mixed up with another patient. Don't believe a thing he tells you. From randy@qualcomm.com Mon Jul 25 18:49:41 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9A2611E80EA for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2011 18:49:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WtaYAW6sxn0N for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2011 18:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine01.qualcomm.com (wolverine01.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.254]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A99011E80DF for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2011 18:49:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=randy@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1311644981; x=1343180981; h=message-id:x-mailer:date:to:from:subject:cc:mime-version: content-type:x-random-sig-tag:x-originating-ip; z=Message-ID:=20 |X-Mailer:=20Eudora=20for=20Mac=20OS=20X|Date:=20Mon,=202 5=20Jul=202011=2018:42:14=20-0700|To:=20Bron=20Gondwana =20,=20Gilles=20LAMIRAL=0D=0A=09|From:=20Randall=20Gellens=20|Subject:=20Re:=20[imap5]=20Where=20is=20IM AP5=20?|CC:=20|MIME-Version:=201.0 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3D"us-ascii"=3B =20format=3Dflowed|X-Random-Sig-Tag:=201.0b28 |X-Originating-IP:=20[172.30.39.5]; bh=yN5hCXMW8p01Q4PL7sNJ0RJ70YBPMT451E6jWA1Oqlc=; b=tq6Q9SkKaQkLjVww605lgCzqfDcO/9DkO5Eb7rh1Ve8L8yucSAnzLChK QtKMXfhFbxkPOsqmrIATW/FU1jRnyk6KItZT0Ci+qLtdT937zgNnHaPcz nd2uP48lHbwCAFDdmRuhdguT8Mkzpg9tccLCOUgByuXnOukVaSIkuAs9e Y=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5400,1158,6418"; a="105869297" Received: from ironmsg04-l.qualcomm.com ([172.30.48.19]) by wolverine01.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 25 Jul 2011 18:49:37 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,261,1309762800"; d="scan'208";a="53160872" Received: from nasanexhc07.na.qualcomm.com ([172.30.39.190]) by Ironmsg04-L.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 25 Jul 2011 18:49:37 -0700 Received: from [130.129.83.90] (172.30.39.5) by qcmail1.qualcomm.com (172.30.39.190) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.0; Mon, 25 Jul 2011 18:49:36 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 18:42:14 -0700 To: Bron Gondwana , Gilles LAMIRAL From: Randall Gellens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 X-Originating-IP: [172.30.39.5] Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 01:49:41 -0000 At 8:07 AM +0200 7/20/11, Bron Gondwana wrote: > POP doesn't have any way to upload email There's XTND XMIT, which was a disaster. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- My definition of a free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular. --Adlai Stevenson From randy@qualcomm.com Mon Jul 25 18:49:47 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62B8811E80EE for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2011 18:49:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YnPO1jift7fl for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2011 18:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine02.qualcomm.com (wolverine02.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.251]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0FD411E80DF for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2011 18:49:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=randy@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1311644986; x=1343180986; h=message-id:x-mailer:date:to:from:subject:mime-version: content-type:x-random-sig-tag:x-originating-ip; z=Message-ID:=20 |X-Mailer:=20Eudora=20for=20Mac=20OS=20X|Date:=20Mon,=202 5=20Jul=202011=2018:42:10=20-0700|To:=20Cyrus=20Daboo=20< cyrus@daboo.name>,=20Giovanni=20Panozzo=20,=0D=0A=09|From:=20Randall=20Gellen s=20|Subject:=20Re:=20[imap5]=20Where =20is=20IMAP5=20?|MIME-Version:=201.0|Content-Type:=20tex t/plain=3B=20charset=3D"us-ascii"=3B=20format=3Dflowed |X-Random-Sig-Tag:=201.0b28|X-Originating-IP:=20[172.30.3 9.5]; bh=ldUa6IboGvmAE2w2hR6E3TKMxz5CIrgufzkjonDCl9I=; b=zYgm5x6FD0dZ9TsMR6yhBKhyWv7amwrgUrdLW98k9u5SvTRsyMGdx46/ enXpK5/pShtKfiR94LpIVbxBJxTo8Zqn9SyDC/Bm4q5uNblfnDbJQJQ7C 42McnlMX0uBj2b8SntQKMeRzCuW/bTTRcrh70QjtsAqzxyXiG150vRTjS s=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5400,1158,6418"; a="105660176" Received: from ironmsg04-r.qualcomm.com ([172.30.46.18]) by wolverine02.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 25 Jul 2011 18:49:43 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,261,1309762800"; d="scan'208";a="99657230" Received: from nasanexhc07.na.qualcomm.com ([172.30.39.190]) by Ironmsg04-R.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 25 Jul 2011 18:49:42 -0700 Received: from [130.129.83.90] (172.30.39.5) by qcmail1.qualcomm.com (172.30.39.190) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.0; Mon, 25 Jul 2011 18:49:40 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 18:42:10 -0700 To: Cyrus Daboo , Giovanni Panozzo , From: Randall Gellens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 X-Originating-IP: [172.30.39.5] Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 01:49:47 -0000 At 9:48 AM -0400 7/20/11, Cyrus Daboo wrote: > If we are going to forge ahead here, I would rather see a brand > new protocol that can be data type agnostic (i.e. there is a lot > more "stuff" than just email, calendar and contact data that a user > might want to store and manipulate and relate - bookmarks, photos, > music etc). Sounds like a job for XMPP. Of course, in reality that just moves the problem from the protocol data types and operations to the XML layer. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- If you think dogs can't count, try putting three dog biscuits in your pocket then giving Fido only two of them. --Phil Pastoret From brong@fastmail.fm Mon Jul 25 23:32:01 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4495211E807E for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2011 23:32:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hoLGWO4TI2Bn for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2011 23:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4.smtp.messagingengine.com (out4.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F17411E807C for ; Mon, 25 Jul 2011 23:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.45]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2E8C20506; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 02:31:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend1.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.160]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 26 Jul 2011 02:31:59 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id :references:mime-version:content-type:in-reply-to; s=smtpout; bh=2uhQESGG27q2oxyJT0rVyZpJe9Y=; b=h+THDSuVvPa47ShGKX9B5ehgUzhh 3j+Wjd7wfpOuByEwUV6x1cGH/bWRzt9cTzpSEuMkE1F4VcYfHB17SPG6/0YvwPGS n1eiDixW/Q0whdQdWTHUz+dXFW2aFlEId98RiXqGPSn6/Bv9ha5ZM5kxT1v/Lzrn q5u7JYGthQK1q8U= X-Sasl-enc: TgRvaeR5T1niezFnj+N+qjKLJkBVcFSsygCsxfKrklsy 1311661919 Received: from localhost (56.243.9.46.customer.cdi.no [46.9.243.56]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6F7CA413AD3; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 02:31:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 66BAB212AB; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 08:31:58 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 08:31:58 +0200 From: Bron Gondwana To: Randall Gellens Message-ID: <20110726063158.GA8896@brong.net> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: brong.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 06:32:01 -0000 On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 06:42:14PM -0700, Randall Gellens wrote: > At 8:07 AM +0200 7/20/11, Bron Gondwana wrote: > > > POP doesn't have any way to upload email > > There's XTND XMIT, which was a disaster. Didn't someone already say that - but the difference is that with POP you're not uploading to your mail store, you're ONLY sending with XTND XMIT. Also, disaster? [citation needed] It doesn't seem to have made the world end. It certainly never bothered me at any time in my email "career". Bron. From brong@fastmail.fm Tue Jul 26 01:22:24 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC56E21F8AEE for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 01:22:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R5V42e9dUast for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 01:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4.smtp.messagingengine.com (out4.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F2A21F8ADC for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 01:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.45]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA51320D06; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 04:22:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend1.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.160]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 26 Jul 2011 04:22:23 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:to:subject:references:date :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:from:message-id :in-reply-to; s=smtpout; bh=48OgBcE7a03pVoXFXDodHIpy5O4=; b=ea6/ 80vZ4N4jTTNueAo7L2OW5mjeeHQcSyyZ6vWm+QPYNy5IpK1n9UpALv/JMNenDlOQ m0vQHIaNvd3WK91Q/TumTRc1XnGEvkV+T9nNvGhc+fW9OC6PGFigrxmhpjJdiOZL QYLVgtBSgtaRyGrOS+BN/W8Oc6yx8oofSIvSMKc= X-Sasl-enc: D2tjQ7jBfgcIGvT3NQAxcL65MIbCeHSxd2ZnRzG1HEJb 1311668543 Received: from arbre.eng.oslo.osa (pat-tdc.opera.com [213.236.208.22]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 15FE7413A0B; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 04:22:22 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes To: "Giovanni Panozzo" , imap5@ietf.org, "Randall Gellens" References: Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 10:22:37 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable From: "Bron Gondwana" Organization: FastMail.FM Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Opera Mail/11.50 (Linux) Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 08:22:25 -0000 On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 03:42:13 +0200, Randall Gellens = = wrote: > At 11:32 AM +0200 7/20/11, Giovanni Panozzo wrote: > >> If the client program only asks "just give me >> your email address and your passord", your client and your protocol= = >> will >> gain a new user. > > Eudora implemented exactly this (auto configuration) many years ago, = > using ACAP. I honestly thought it would be greeted with joyous = > celebration and acclaim by users, help desk agents, administrators, an= d = > others, as ushering in a new era of ease-of-use and reduced support = > costs. > > Wow, was I wrong. http://dave.cridland.net/acap/eudora.html "Note that those attributes don't have the required "vendor.eudora." = prefix on them. You'll unfortunately need to put them all in twice, once= = with, and once without, that prefix. The reason is that a bug in Eudora 4-5 means that "quoted" values only g= et = read without the prefix, and {7} literal (*) values only get read with it. Infotrope ACAP Server does = allow you to force attributes to be sent as literals, using the "hint" = right of 0, but this is non-standard. To do it, just put in an ACL entry= = granting the "0" right to people. I do this by setting it in "dataset.ac= l" = on every mentioned authzid there. It's an awful hack, but it solves the = = problem. Sometimes, the settings won't work at all as a result. Oh, dear. " and a little later. "When configuring Eudora for the first time, tell it to use the ACAP = server, with a suitable username and password. Eudora should find the = settings, and display a pr=C3=A9cis of them. Don't accept them, there's = another = bug here. :-| Instead, let Eudora quiz you about them all - you'll find they're all se= t = correctly, and you can simply hit Next rather a lot." Wow. I'm feeling ushered into a new era of ease-of-use and reduced support costs already. I have a feeling this sort of nonsense is why it was easier to walk people through setting up explicit settings. Reading that page, I can see why it never caught on for the general case. The user experience was shit. Bron. -- = Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ From dave@cridland.net Tue Jul 26 01:54:37 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C3D921F8A4F for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 01:54:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.537 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.537 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.063, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dh9noY5hnpa5 for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 01:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net (peirce.dave.cridland.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:882:2e0:81ff:fe29:d16a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 973D821F8A23 for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 01:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (peirce.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) by peirce.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F2861168087; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 09:54:31 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at peirce.dave.cridland.net Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (peirce.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UWzlYu8My5uy; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 09:53:39 +0100 (BST) Received: from puncture (puncture.dave.cridland.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:882:221:85ff:fe3f:1696]) by peirce.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 46A3E1168067; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 09:53:39 +0100 (BST) References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <9031.1311670419.290476@puncture> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 09:53:39 +0100 From: Dave Cridland To: Randall Gellens , Cyrus Daboo , Giovanni Panozzo , "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP\." Content-Type: text/plain; delsp="yes"; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 08:54:37 -0000 On Tue Jul 26 02:42:10 2011, Randall Gellens wrote: > At 9:48 AM -0400 7/20/11, Cyrus Daboo wrote: > >> If we are going to forge ahead here, I would rather see a brand >> new protocol that can be data type agnostic (i.e. there is a lot >> more "stuff" than just email, calendar and contact data that a >> user might want to store and manipulate and relate - bookmarks, >> photos, music etc). > > Sounds like a job for XMPP. > > Get your dirty paws off my nice clean protocol. > Of course, in reality that just moves the problem from the protocol > data types and operations to the XML layer. Right. And XMPP doesn't handle binary data (very well), and there's still a problem with supporting multiple conflicting models within the same protocol. What XMPP could do is provide the ACAP-like facilities of autoconfiguration, giving a client all the details for smooth multi-protocol bootstrapping. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@dave.cridland.net - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade From dave@cridland.net Tue Jul 26 01:54:53 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3203621F8C23 for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 01:54:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.539 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.539 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UmVHK2-J8EQl for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 01:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net (peirce.dave.cridland.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:882:2e0:81ff:fe29:d16a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62AD221F8A4F for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 01:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (peirce.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) by peirce.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 497DB116808D; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 09:54:51 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at peirce.dave.cridland.net Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (peirce.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gYpU5lrAC2AV; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 09:54:48 +0100 (BST) Received: from puncture (puncture.dave.cridland.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:882:221:85ff:fe3f:1696]) by peirce.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 3B3621168090; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 09:54:48 +0100 (BST) References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <9031.1311670488.242499@puncture> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 09:54:48 +0100 From: Dave Cridland To: Bron Gondwana , Giovanni Panozzo , "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP\." , Randall Gellens Content-Type: text/plain; delsp="yes"; charset="iso-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 08:54:53 -0000 On Tue Jul 26 09:22:37 2011, Bron Gondwana wrote: > The reason is that a bug in Eudora 4-5 means that "quoted" values > only get read without the prefix, and {7} > literal (*) values only get read with it. It's a cause of there not being any ACAP server to test against except for the WorldMail cut-down one for many years. With WorldMail, this would undoubtedly have worked without any fuss. (In no small part because WorldMail was also read-only, so there was no need to set specific attributes at all). > "When configuring Eudora for the first time, tell it to use the > ACAP server, with a suitable username and password. Eudora should > find the settings, and display a précis of them. Don't accept > them, there's another bug here. :-| > > Instead, let Eudora quiz you about them all - you'll find they're > all set correctly, and you can simply hit Next rather a lot." > > Wow. I'm feeling ushered into a new era of ease-of-use and reduced > support costs already. > > Right, but you fail to quote the next bits: On a running Eudora, you can simply go to the Autoconfiguration bit of the Settings dialog, fill in the details and let it update them all - it'll just "work". These bugs will hopefully be fixed in later versions - it's worth noting that they were never spotted since they don't, apparently, affect WorldMail's autoconfiguration ACAP-a-like server, and the absence of any real installed base of ACAP servers has prevented anyone from noticing them to date. > Reading that page, I can see why it never caught on for the general > case. The user experience was shit. Actually quite good if you had WorldMail, I'd imagine. Or CommuniGate, which had a similar cut-down ACAP server. Of course, selective quoting from my page can make it look as if it'll support your argument. On the other hand, if you try Polymer, it'll cheerfully do offline-cached ACAP, handle the full spec, and you can change the running config of one instance from another on a different machine. Then again, Polymer also does BURL et al, which you seem to be convinced is too hard, so maybe that discounts itself by dint of being opposed to your argument. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@dave.cridland.net - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade From brong@fastmail.fm Tue Jul 26 02:23:00 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9FE521F8B9B for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 02:23:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 567-CDMZ+PTj for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 02:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4.smtp.messagingengine.com (out4.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 081F421F858D for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 02:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.44]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACB7F2094E; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 05:22:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend1.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.160]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 26 Jul 2011 05:22:59 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:to:subject:references:date :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:from:message-id :in-reply-to; s=smtpout; bh=iwggndvc7g741xkNU8K0A0XoCBs=; b=RGPt 192px99f1HMSSkRGXKwA5mz4K+6Zkdp4SH9lj8tYckWEPCc90f3uaLERqTHl3ZqT GmzSGsj96V18qbeMfi2x738GbcCkscQyUQG6BuzJpTZTEWLPhBD6/qpLlqeD4bFN Xvz0XWBGm3gZfRqOXlFhwkeuclI63oIfLiDX8/g= X-Sasl-enc: UWmrhJbOtS12RJNNaY9y8qMxNbltEA+kYSTP7Ww90Mo5 1311672179 Received: from arbre.eng.oslo.osa (pat-tdc.opera.com [213.236.208.22]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CA16F4133A9; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 05:22:58 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes To: "Giovanni Panozzo" , "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." , "Randall Gellens" , "Dave Cridland" References: <9031.1311670488.242499@puncture> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 11:23:13 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable From: "Bron Gondwana" Organization: FastMail.FM Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9031.1311670488.242499@puncture> User-Agent: Opera Mail/11.50 (Linux) Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 09:23:01 -0000 On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 10:54:48 +0200, Dave Cridland = wrote: >> "When configuring Eudora for the first time, tell it to use the ACAP = = >> server, with a suitable username and password. Eudora should find the= = >> settings, and display a pr=C3=A9cis of them. Don't accept them, there= 's = >> another bug here. :-| >> Instead, let Eudora quiz you about them all - you'll find they're all= = >> set correctly, and you can simply hit Next rather a lot." >> Wow. I'm feeling ushered into a new era of ease-of-use and reduced >> support costs already. >> > Right, but you fail to quote the next bits: They're not the initial user experience though. > On a running Eudora, you can simply go to the Autoconfiguration bit o= f > the Settings dialog, fill in the details and let it update them all -= = > it'll just "work". Yep - but most people don't have a "running Eudora" unless they've already got everything configured, in which case there's no work required, so why bother with ACAP? > These bugs will hopefully be fixed in later versions - it's worth = > noting that > they were never spotted since they don't, apparently, affect = > WorldMail's autoconfiguration ACAP-a-like server, and the absence of = = > any real installed = > base of ACAP servers has prevented anyone from noticing them to date.= Yes, the lack of ACAP servers certainly didn't help. That was probably also a reason why more people weren't jumping up to support ACAP. >> Reading that page, I can see why it never caught on for the general >> case. The user experience was shit. > > Actually quite good if you had WorldMail, I'd imagine. Or CommuniGate,= = > which had a similar cut-down ACAP server. > On the other hand, if you try Polymer, it'll cheerfully do = > offline-cached ACAP, handle the full spec, and you can change the = > running config of one instance from another on a different machine. Th= en = > again, Polymer also does BURL et al, which you seem to be convinced is= = > too hard, so maybe that discounts itself by dint of being opposed to = > your argument. OK - fair enough. I'll pull a copy of polymer and have a look. I'm convinced that BURL is too hard, mostly by the fact that the number of authenticated channels is too high. It's not just two channels, it's= three. Client -> IMAP server Client -> ESMTP server ESMTP server -> IMAP server Whereas a theoretical IMAP submit has one: Client -> IMAP server All sorts of fun complications with maximum sizes, rate limits, per-IP connection limits make a general BURL hard. And it's tricky for a clien= t in the general case to check that it will all work. So I'm struggling to get polymer to work. Without an ACAP server it was= a mess. Throwing up failure dialogs all over, and not asking for a password for my IMAP server. With ACAP (default settings) it has = disappeared, no window visable any more. tcp6 0 0 2001:4c28:20:21:::46729 2001:470:1f09:882:2:674 = ESTABLISHED 13749/python It's sitting trying to read on that, and has been for a couple of minute= s now. Bron. -- = Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ From dave@cridland.net Tue Jul 26 02:49:12 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7640421F8B8D for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 02:49:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.532 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.532 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.067, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id otSj0D02NzsA for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 02:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net (peirce.dave.cridland.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:882:2e0:81ff:fe29:d16a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 954E421F8B6B for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 02:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (peirce.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) by peirce.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7376E1168087; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 10:49:04 +0100 (BST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at peirce.dave.cridland.net Received: from peirce.dave.cridland.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (peirce.dave.cridland.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xy9rgIy39fCy; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 10:49:00 +0100 (BST) Received: from puncture (puncture.dave.cridland.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:882:221:85ff:fe3f:1696]) by peirce.dave.cridland.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id E9FCC1168067; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 10:48:59 +0100 (BST) References: <9031.1311670488.242499@puncture> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <9031.1311673739.954308@puncture> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 10:48:59 +0100 From: Dave Cridland To: Bron Gondwana , Giovanni Panozzo , "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP\." , Randall Gellens Content-Type: text/plain; delsp="yes"; charset="iso-8859-1"; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 09:49:12 -0000 On Tue Jul 26 10:23:13 2011, Bron Gondwana wrote: > On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 10:54:48 +0200, Dave Cridland > wrote: > >>> "When configuring Eudora for the first time, tell it to use the >>> ACAP server, with a suitable username and password. Eudora >>> should find the settings, and display a précis of them. Don't >>> accept them, there's another bug here. :-| >>> Instead, let Eudora quiz you about them all - you'll find they're >>> all set correctly, and you can simply hit Next rather a lot." >>> Wow. I'm feeling ushered into a new era of ease-of-use and >>> reduced >>> support costs already. >>> >> Right, but you fail to quote the next bits: > > They're not the initial user experience though. Nor is placing the settings manually into an ACAP server. >> On a running Eudora, you can simply go to the Autoconfiguration >> bit of >> the Settings dialog, fill in the details and let it update them >> all - it'll just "work". > > Yep - but most people don't have a "running Eudora" unless they've > already got everything configured, in which case there's no work > required, so why bother with ACAP? No, it's evidence that we're talking about a (fairly simple) bug. As I recall, they were also all fixed. >> These bugs will hopefully be fixed in later versions - it's worth >> noting that >> they were never spotted since they don't, apparently, affect >> WorldMail's autoconfiguration ACAP-a-like server, and the absence >> of any real installed >> base of ACAP servers has prevented anyone from noticing them to >> date. > > Yes, the lack of ACAP servers certainly didn't help. That was > probably > also a reason why more people weren't jumping up to support ACAP. > > A far more pressing reason, I'd imagine. > I'm convinced that BURL is too hard, mostly by the fact that the > number > of authenticated channels is too high. It's not just two channels, > it's > three. > > Client -> IMAP server > Client -> ESMTP server > ESMTP server -> IMAP server > > Right, but the first two exist anyway, and the third is not only very simple (and in my experience, it either works all the time or is misconfigured and fails to work at all), but it's sometimes even elided. The interesting thing is that the status quo is exactly the same number of authentications and channels for the client as this. > Whereas a theoretical IMAP submit has one: > > Client -> IMAP server That's very theoretical. You're dealing with at least two: Client -> IMAP server ; IMAP server -> ESMTP server. > All sorts of fun complications with maximum sizes, rate limits, > per-IP > connection limits make a general BURL hard. And it's tricky for a > client > in the general case to check that it will all work. All sorts of fun complications with maximum sizes, DSN and other unforseen extensions make a general SUBMIT hard. And it's tricky for a client in the general case to check it all worked. When things work, they're simple. The problem is when they don't. > So I'm struggling to get polymer to work. Without an ACAP server > it was > a mess. Throwing up failure dialogs all over, and not asking for a > password for my IMAP server. With ACAP (default settings) it has > disappeared, > no window visable any more. > > tcp6 0 0 2001:4c28:20:21:::46729 2001:470:1f09:882:2:674 > ESTABLISHED 13749/python > > It's sitting trying to read on that, and has been for a couple of > minutes > now. Sure. I didn't claim it'll work well *without* an ACAP server, and I no longer run a public one. It's been about 5 years since anyone tried it, after all... Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@dave.cridland.net - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade From mrc+imap@panda.com Sun Jul 24 22:48:26 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 770AF21F8A56 for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 22:48:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UIFXTK3KJMdV for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 22:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Panda.COM (panda.com [206.124.149.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94DF721F8A55 for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 22:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Panda.COM ([192.107.14.50]) with ESMTP via TCP; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 22:48:16 -0700 X-MailFrom: mrc+imap@panda.com Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 22:48:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Giovanni Panozzo In-Reply-To: <4E2BEC32.8070003@panozzo.it> Message-ID: References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> <1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> <20110720060738.GA6750@brong.net> <4E28C920.8090309@laposte.net> <4E293C82.80600@panozzo.it> <4E2B68A1.5030301@laposte.net> <4E2BEC32.8070003@panozzo.it> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 04:47:46 -0700 Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 06:27:06 -0000 On Sun, 24 Jul 2011, Giovanni Panozzo wrote: > Yes, it's a K9 problem and a stupid user (me) problem. K9 mail sucks in multiple ways. It sucks so hard it is barely usable. K9 is filled with wrong-headed design and programming decisions that defy specific text in multiple standards documents....not to mention common sense. The authors of K9 think that they know better and can just ignore what they don't like in the standards. So why do so many Android users (including me) use K9 mail? Because it sucks less massively than the other choices for Android, especially the utterly unusable default mail program from Google. I have been begged(!!) to produce a good email client for Android. As I said before, I scoped out the project (including the people I wanted on the team) and concluded that I needed at least a million dollar budget to do it. The ROI isn't there. > But HERE in this ML we should discuss for STANDARDS which will would > also help to avoid these things happens. It is absolutely impossible for ANY open standard to do that. Only closed standards, where a single entity (e.g., Microsoft) has absolute dictatorial power, have a chance of such control. Microsoft can say what is ActiveSync and what is not. Microsoft can punish any other vendor of ActiveSync products by making that vendor's products cease to work...and Microsoft will always be in the right becuase Microsoft owns ActiveSync. Microsoft even does this to vendors that they aren't trying to punish. Everybody in ActiveSync dances to Microsoft's tune, and Microsoft frequently changes the beat and the melody. Nobody has such power in open standards. > Again: I'm writing in this ML in hope for STANDARDIZATION, because I > think that a new but more complete standard will make people life easier > than having many different one (BB vs ActiveSync vs SyncML vs > SMTP+IMAP+CalDAV+CardDav+Sieve...). You are in a drug-induced fantasy, and have utterly missed the point of open standards. -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. From mrc+imap@panda.com Sun Jul 24 22:14:45 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66C6421F86FF for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 22:14:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VkoOwIaIZUs8 for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 22:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Panda.COM (panda.com [206.124.149.114]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9997521F86AE for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 22:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hsinghsing.panda.com ([206.124.149.116]) by Panda.COM ([192.107.14.50]) with ESMTP via TCP; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 22:14:37 -0700 X-MailFrom: mrc+imap@panda.com Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2011 22:14:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Crispin Sender: mrc@hsinghsing.panda.com To: Gilles LAMIRAL In-Reply-To: <4E2B68A1.5030301@laposte.net> Message-ID: References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718190947.GB8329@brong.net> <4E24B55C.1050507@laposte.net> <1311115679.3432.2153661013@webmail.messagingengine.com> <4E2637C3.7090704@laposte.net> <20110720060738.GA6750@brong.net> <4E28C920.8090309@laposte.net> <4E293C82.80600@panozzo.it> <4E2B68A1.5030301@laposte.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (OSX 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 04:47:46 -0700 Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 06:27:32 -0000 On Sun, 24 Jul 2011, Gilles LAMIRAL wrote: > Ok. It's what I said elsewhere, you ask IMAP to be a sub-MUA that have to do > a little of what full-MUAs already master. You ask IMAP to become > a proxy. So you like proxy. Write one. You are quite correct in this observation. But there is more to it; these guys want to pretend that they are not using a proxy. It is therefore quite important to them that the "standard way" is their way of proxy (it would be a disaster for them for it to be someone else's proxy). > So when IMAP will be able to post messages the next port to be blocked will be > the IMAP port for exactly the same reasons: Spam and mail-bombing. It's even worse than that. Consider environments where deep packet inspection is done on all SMTP traffic at the router for policy reasons, and TLS is blocked. > Ask your bosses to think. It's usually not the boss. It's the lazy young programmer who only knows cookbook JAVA techniques. When something doesn't fit into a cookbook, he demands that it change rather than learning how to cook without a cookbook. >> This is one of the points because my IT chiefs decided to move to >> Blackberries or ActiveSync in the last 5 years. End user configuration >> and support ! > So be happy to leave IMAP, why are you arguing? Every IT department that goes to ActiveSync means more money to me as departments set up their own IMAP infrastructures, independent of the IT department, in order to have email that works. I owe personal thanks to several such IT departments for all the new business they have given me. As for BlackBerry...talk about a dying technology! -- Mark -- http://panda.com/mrc Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote. From chris.newman@oracle.com Tue Jul 26 07:04:43 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 783D121F8C9D for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 07:04:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.496, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=0.992, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I3uoJ2STqe1Q for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 07:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmea-mail-1.sun.com (brmea-mail-1.Sun.COM [192.18.98.31]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D39A721F8C9B for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 07:04:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brmsunmail2-sfbay.uk.sun.com ([10.79.11.101]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id p6QE4Yud025818; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 14:04:34 GMT Received: from gotmail.us.oracle.com (gotmail.us.oracle.com [10.133.152.174]) by brmsunmail2-sfbay.uk.sun.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4/ENSMAIL,v2.4) with ESMTP id p6QE4WZe031213; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 14:04:33 GMT MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed Received: from [10.159.33.218] (dhcp-rmdc-twvpn-2-vpnpool-10-159-33-218.vpn.oracle.com [10.159.33.218]) by gotmail.us.oracle.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Exchange Server 7u5-4.01 64bit (built May 4 2011)) with ESMTPA id <0LOY0001U1RE2H00@gotmail.us.oracle.com>; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 07:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 14:37:15 -0400 From: Chris Newman To: Dave Cridland , Bron Gondwana , "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." , Tony Finch Message-id: <75342B22BA95309B7CA67324@96B2F16665FF96BAE59E9B90> In-reply-to: <9031.1311061755.838313@puncture> References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> <9031.1311061755.838313@puncture> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 14:04:43 -0000 --On July 19, 2011 8:49:15 +0100 Dave Cridland wrote: > The only solution I see is to make the IMAP[45] command such a thing > wrapper around ESMTP/Submission that it offers no clear benefit, except > for the ability to avoid BURL/GENURLAUTH. I think it'd be pretty ugly, > but it *is* possible. I also believe this *is* possible. However, real SMTP servers have to make auditing and access control decisions based on the source IP address, user authentication, etc, to stop spam/etc from both internal and external sources. So the IMAP server becomes a proxy to the SMTP server that has to forward all that information to the SMTP server. So we actually need an SMTP extension that the IMAP client can use to forward that information. What happens if we don't do that? Well, real SMTP deployments need rate-limiting controls based on the source address, even if the source user is authenticated (Windows worms install botnets that use Outlook mail credentials for the user to send spam and phishing). So the entire IMAP server will likely get marked as a spam source once any user abuses it, unless there's an SMTP extension for the IMAP server to use to forward credentials and source IP. The problem is SMTP may _appear_ easy, but a real implementation and deployment of an SMTP server is in many ways more subtle and complex than an IMAP server. Implementing all the spam, virus, phishing, rate-limiting, etc features in an IMAP server codebase is a huge architecture error. > Now, you absolutely could just solve the minimal case, but that also has > the effect of closing the door on all future development, so I'm less > than convinced that's a workable idea, either. It also breaks some types of spam/virus prevention and denial-of-service defenses for outbound mail. > The trick is *not* covering 100% of the existing submission cases; the > trick is including sufficient extensibility to make 100% parity possible. Two IMAP commands plus an SMTP command could do it. If we choose a reasonable minimum-required-set of SMTP extensions then most clients wouldn't need to use the GETEHLO command (but it's critical for future extensibility). IMAP command 1: GETEHLO IMAP command 2: SEND [(ALSOAPPEND )] SMTP command: PROXYHELO If someone is willing to do all the editorial work necessary to correctly specify commands like this, and document the security implications, then I would not object to such an effort (and I would do my best to handle the PROXYHELO command and security implications well). I was a strong supporter of the trio proposal because it was more flexible and I thought the security implications would be simpler. After working on a BURL/URLAUTH/CATENATE implementation, I am no longer convinced the latter is the case -- the complexity of the security implications of both proposals are roughly equivalent but live in different places. - Chris From randy@qualcomm.com Tue Jul 26 07:20:06 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D6CD21F8CBD for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 07:20:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kHUFPaDeK0f0 for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 07:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine01.qualcomm.com (wolverine01.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.254]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E439F21F8C19 for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 07:20:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=randy@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1311690005; x=1343226005; h=message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:date:to:from: subject:cc:mime-version:content-type:x-random-sig-tag: x-originating-ip; z=Message-ID:=20 |In-Reply-To:=20<20110726063158.GA8896@brong.net> |References:=20=0D =0A=20<20110726063158.GA8896@brong.net>|X-Mailer:=20Eudor a=20for=20Mac=20OS=20X|Date:=20Tue,=2026=20Jul=202011=200 7:11:18=20-0700|To:=20Bron=20Gondwana=20|From:=20Randall=20Gellens=20 |Subject:=20Re:=20[imap5]=20Where=20is=20IMAP5=20?|CC:=20 |MIME-Version:=201.0|Content-Type:=20text /plain=3B=20charset=3D"us-ascii"=3B=20format=3Dflowed |X-Random-Sig-Tag:=201.0b28|X-Originating-IP:=20[172.30.4 8.1]; bh=qApksmPLF6rxzBWoNFJvT3+iF8Nk0PSDSXevoNo1J3g=; b=RSt33JioeOBtxhhUC3ccI1hGXd7Xp4UIaEXY+mPaErjiZd4hqOuYHxvk +jzvqu/E1cxN40rYdq4L3i4a9QnYckFq4TDiOI/2+ATNII0pwBXW4gIai bIKLKAH3OyOBlcjcApH7u/G7x2TeLE96nZTFdPMoZKFZelcylEZjtVJpE A=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5400,1158,6418"; a="105977606" Received: from ironmsg02-r.qualcomm.com ([172.30.46.16]) by wolverine01.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 26 Jul 2011 07:20:05 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,269,1309762800"; d="scan'208";a="155200012" Received: from nasanexhc05.na.qualcomm.com ([172.30.48.2]) by ironmsg02-R.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 26 Jul 2011 07:20:05 -0700 Received: from [130.129.83.90] (172.30.48.1) by qcmail1.qualcomm.com (172.30.48.2) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.0; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 07:16:53 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20110726063158.GA8896@brong.net> References: <20110726063158.GA8896@brong.net> X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 07:11:18 -0700 To: Bron Gondwana From: Randall Gellens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 X-Originating-IP: [172.30.48.1] Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 14:20:06 -0000 At 8:31 AM +0200 7/26/11, Bron Gondwana wrote: > Didn't someone already say that My apologies if it was a duplicate -- I got three DSNs yesterday saying that the IETF list server rejected my messages because it couldn't resolve my corporate server's reverse DNS record. I resubmitted, but in hindsight should have checked to see if they had been accepted (but since the rejection was from the IETF server, I figgured not). -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- Man is the only animal that can remain on friendly terms with the victims he intends to eat until he eats them. - -Samuel Butler From randy@qualcomm.com Tue Jul 26 07:20:06 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A734F21F8C19 for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 07:20:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9F7p0r6Z61tQ for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 07:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine01.qualcomm.com (wolverine01.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.254]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C7C121F8C3D for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 07:20:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=randy@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1311690006; x=1343226006; h=message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:date:to:from: subject:mime-version:content-type:x-random-sig-tag: x-originating-ip; z=Message-ID:=20 |In-Reply-To:=20 |References:=20=0D =0A=20|X-Mailer:=20 Eudora=20for=20Mac=20OS=20X|Date:=20Tue,=2026=20Jul=20201 1=2007:14:17=20-0700|To:=20Bron=20Gondwana=20,=20Giovanni=20Panozzo=20,=0D =0A=09,=20Randall=20Gellens=20|From:=20Randall=20Gellens=20|Subject:=20Re:=20[imap5]=20Where=20is=20IMAP5=20? |MIME-Version:=201.0|Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20char set=3D"us-ascii"=3B=20format=3Dflowed|X-Random-Sig-Tag: =201.0b28|X-Originating-IP:=20[172.30.48.1]; bh=ManH8t0Vxl20EF6YM3N1lUBjK6jii5VTA+VFqwOxE74=; b=vrvUTlwuxb+jcqtr9PizXLesPkHy57h9FN2H5zlG5ciBIrCTCwbisJOj kBiyyOcjBf4Qwzp+NmPs1/pnh7Vl6Da/4YdoBKWel+qXUATy9NsF81M6L M4mqUgKx56xm37exmj5FM5W/6DSKqfH387/60LjtUfrJgSU0SypQUrrUe Y=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5400,1158,6418"; a="105977608" Received: from ironmsg02-r.qualcomm.com ([172.30.46.16]) by wolverine01.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 26 Jul 2011 07:20:05 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,269,1309762800"; d="scan'208";a="155200014" Received: from nasanexhc05.na.qualcomm.com ([172.30.48.2]) by ironmsg02-R.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 26 Jul 2011 07:20:05 -0700 Received: from [130.129.83.90] (172.30.48.1) by qcmail1.qualcomm.com (172.30.48.2) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.0; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 07:17:27 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 07:14:17 -0700 To: Bron Gondwana , Giovanni Panozzo , , Randall Gellens From: Randall Gellens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 X-Originating-IP: [172.30.48.1] Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 14:20:06 -0000 At 10:22 AM +0200 7/26/11, Bron Gondwana wrote: > Reading that page, I can see why it never caught on for the general > case. The user experience was shit. In fairness, I think if people had tried to use it and reported these bugs, they would have been fixed. The fact that they weren't to me indicates that people weren't even trying to use auto-config, I suppose because they just didn't care. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- Do files get embarrassed when they are unzipped? From brong@fastmail.fm Tue Jul 26 07:24:06 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD55521F8BCB for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 07:24:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SJ1EOZC35VpG for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 07:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4.smtp.messagingengine.com (out4.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D665B21F8BC9 for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 07:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.43]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89F4720D1B; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 10:24:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend2.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.161]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 26 Jul 2011 10:24:05 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:to:subject:references:date :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:from:message-id :in-reply-to; s=smtpout; bh=9mOOpUZZEwoJRvtwOmyqEZfJ7Ic=; b=jfd4 0+fuUOO56pzaUOr2/NIpJ0tlcIlZ6zT17qZS/RzciZLHTHBtfuLQDSP7YhJsBVN/ KBug8bulxNjz/WzR10HH4EkxPOZrurhtUC3nNtmKyIlUqjL5v+TecNMFmXmopPAC hFhyf2xvcHyUH+LCkNyFRYhwNyjUMgnWle5zRCY= X-Sasl-enc: jEWdM2BwVbt3OnCCHyXAZPweKbd5OM4qAGGo6vBquZAu 1311690245 Received: from arbre.eng.oslo.osa (pat-tdc.opera.com [213.236.208.22]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BEADE454966; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 10:24:04 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes To: "Dave Cridland" , "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." , "Tony Finch" , "Chris Newman" References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> <9031.1311061755.838313@puncture> <75342B22BA95309B7CA67324@96B2F16665FF96BAE59E9B90> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 16:24:19 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Bron Gondwana" Organization: FastMail.FM Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <75342B22BA95309B7CA67324@96B2F16665FF96BAE59E9B90> User-Agent: Opera Mail/11.50 (Linux) Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 14:24:07 -0000 On Mon, 25 Jul 2011 20:37:15 +0200, Chris Newman wrote: > --On July 19, 2011 8:49:15 +0100 Dave Cridland wrote: >> The only solution I see is to make the IMAP[45] command such a thing >> wrapper around ESMTP/Submission that it offers no clear benefit, except >> for the ability to avoid BURL/GENURLAUTH. I think it'd be pretty ugly, >> but it *is* possible. > > I also believe this *is* possible. However, real SMTP servers have to > make auditing and access control decisions based on the source IP > address, user authentication, etc, to stop spam/etc from both internal > and external sources. True - but at least in the case of Cyrus, which has a full sieve implementation, the user can already cause email to be generated by creating a sieve script with a forward rule. The IMAP server already needs to know how to inject email into an outbound queue. > So the IMAP server becomes a proxy to the SMTP server that has to > forward all that information to the SMTP server. So we actually need an > SMTP extension that the IMAP client can use to forward that information. > What happens if we don't do that? Well, real SMTP deployments need > rate-limiting controls based on the source address, even if the source > user is authenticated (Windows worms install botnets that use Outlook > mail credentials for the user to send spam and phishing). So the entire > IMAP server will likely get marked as a spam source once any user abuses > it, unless there's an SMTP extension for the IMAP server to use to > forward credentials and source IP. Forwarding source IP is actually pretty tricky right through the various layers - the usual way seems to be following the Received headers back to the first "untrusted" host. It would seem that having the IMAPd put a received header at the top of the message when it injected it would fulfill this purpose. > The problem is SMTP may _appear_ easy, but a real implementation and > deployment of an SMTP server is in many ways more subtle and complex > than an IMAP server. Implementing all the spam, virus, phishing, > rate-limiting, etc features in an IMAP server codebase is a huge > architecture error. You have me slightly convinced by your argument. But only slightly, because... >> Now, you absolutely could just solve the minimal case, but that also has >> the effect of closing the door on all future development, so I'm less >> than convinced that's a workable idea, either. > > It also breaks some types of spam/virus prevention and denial-of-service > defenses for outbound mail. ... how is that different to webmail, which also has to inject email somehow. Not very. All the people advocating webmail as the solution face exactly the same problems. And they do much the same thing - inject a header with the original IP address. We do outbound rate limiting and spam scanning and all that good stuff, and we do it by tracking the original authenticated user who submitted the email. We don't also track which IP address it came from once the user is authenticated, because generally attackers have more IPs than they have valid user accounts, so it's pointless. I don't think that's likely to change, particularly with ipv6 where you can have a few million distinct IPs to play with if you want. >> The trick is *not* covering 100% of the existing submission cases; the >> trick is including sufficient extensibility to make 100% parity >> possible. > > Two IMAP commands plus an SMTP command could do it. If we choose a > reasonable minimum-required-set of SMTP extensions then most clients > wouldn't need to use the GETEHLO command (but it's critical for future > extensibility). > > IMAP command 1: GETEHLO > IMAP command 2: SEND [(ALSOAPPEND )] > > SMTP command: PROXYHELO the ALSOAPPEND bit is racy. I'm 99.9% convinced (here I go with magic numbers again) that you're better off APPENDing separately, and then using the message in the spool once that has succeeded. If the rest fails, you can always EXPUNGE the message again. Which is basically what APPEND/CATENATE/BURL stuff does, except that the user authentication is only managed through one channel. I still think the "SUBMIT" part should be to a local delivery queue rather than an SMTP server, but maybe that's my *nix background talking, where every sane machine has a 'sendmail' compatible wrapper which does the right thing. Bron. -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ From gilles.lamiral@laposte.net Tue Jul 26 08:13:03 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 885C221F88E5 for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 08:13:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gg+ORvIgEbDX for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 08:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ks200821.kimsufi.com (ks200821.kimsufi.com [91.121.112.202]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D546921F886A for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 08:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lamiral.info (lamiral.info [62.147.165.21]) by ks200821.kimsufi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF7C8521848; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 17:12:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (petite.lamiral.info [127.0.0.1]) by lamiral.info (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF656244047; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 17:12:54 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4E2ED976.5020202@laposte.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 17:12:54 +0200 From: Gilles LAMIRAL User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.2.18) Gecko/20110617 Thunderbird/3.1.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bron Gondwana References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> <9031.1311061755.838313@puncture> <75342B22BA95309B7CA67324@96B2F16665FF96BAE59E9B90> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 15:13:03 -0000 Hello, > ... All the people advocating webmail as the solution face exactly > the same problems. And they do much the same thing No, webmail writers do what they want, they are not following a RFC that have to work for twenty years. -- Au revoir, 09 51 84 42 42 Gilles Lamiral. France, Baulon (35580) 06 20 79 76 06 From randy@qualcomm.com Tue Jul 26 11:12:23 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D73D65E8008 for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 11:12:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6BS9I9a5JRhx for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 11:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine02.qualcomm.com (wolverine02.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.251]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 465345E8005 for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 11:12:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=randy@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1311703943; x=1343239943; h=message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:date:to:from: subject:mime-version:content-type:x-random-sig-tag: x-originating-ip; z=Message-ID:=20 |In-Reply-To:=20 |References:=20<4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it>=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20=0D=0A=20<201 10718184502.GB5192@brong.net>=20<9031.1311061755.838313@p uncture>=0D=0A=20<75342B22BA95309B7CA67324@96B2F16665FF96 BAE59E9B90>=0D=0A=20|X-Mailer:=20Eudora=20for=20Mac=20OS=20X|Date:=20Tue,=20 26=20Jul=202011=2011:10:47=20-0700|To:=20Bron=20Gondwana =20,=20Dave=20Cridland=20,=0D=0A=09"Discussion=20on=20drastically=20=09slimm ing-down=20IMAP."=20,=20Tony=20Finch=0D =0A=09,=20"Chris=20=09Newman"=20|From:=20Randall=20Gellens=20|Subject:=20Re:=20[imap5]=20Where=20is=20IMAP5=20? |MIME-Version:=201.0|Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20char set=3D"us-ascii"=3B=20format=3Dflowed|X-Random-Sig-Tag: =201.0b28|X-Originating-IP:=20[172.30.39.5]; bh=aOaY0GFsJa9H3itZEeR0zLJ5Ub1jhDFYfwSIvcFrBHk=; b=v16VmHvE5FfeV7MTbCd/0tLVh0a66YaDplQ4f7P1KyhqFDwMWtZBShzS WMp3Fs5BdVIlU1UM4TDVlCt4+sHiI0BcN2Dl0sgJ4pFZ7PBn5616uw2l2 +u4rL5jt31vyECIo+D8Ei4HxU4G5iuGpas4SZiCM3YklJ2I5T/yt7zVPE Y=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5400,1158,6419"; a="105831490" Received: from ironmsg04-r.qualcomm.com ([172.30.46.18]) by wolverine02.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 26 Jul 2011 11:12:22 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,269,1309762800"; d="scan'208";a="100318692" Received: from nasanexhc08.na.qualcomm.com ([172.30.39.7]) by Ironmsg04-R.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 26 Jul 2011 11:12:22 -0700 Received: from [130.129.83.90] (172.30.39.5) by qcmail1.qualcomm.com (172.30.39.7) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.0; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 11:12:21 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <4E23FB2A.10200@panozzo.it> <20110718184502.GB5192@brong.net> <9031.1311061755.838313@puncture> <75342B22BA95309B7CA67324@96B2F16665FF96BAE59E9B90> X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 11:10:47 -0700 To: Bron Gondwana , Dave Cridland , "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." , Tony Finch , "Chris Newman" From: Randall Gellens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 X-Originating-IP: [172.30.39.5] Subject: Re: [imap5] Where is IMAP5 ? X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 18:12:24 -0000 At 4:24 PM +0200 7/26/11, Bron Gondwana wrote: > The IMAP server > already needs to know how to inject email into an outbound queue. Inject into an outbound queue or submit? There's a difference -- submission is much earlier in the process. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- The earth is like a tiny grain of sand, only much, much heavier. From cyrus@daboo.name Thu Jul 28 06:07:54 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BE3121F8A62; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 06:07:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.462 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.462 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.137, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_FUTURE_03_06=0.274, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ghCSk9pizmWk; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 06:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from daboo.name (daboo.name [151.201.22.177]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A54FD21F8A96; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 06:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11AA417F7C7C; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 09:07:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daboo.name Received: from daboo.name ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (daboo.name [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vsQj-VJuEEcq; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 09:07:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dhcp-2524.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-2524.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.37.36]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2365417F7C6E; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 09:07:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 15:07:50 -0400 From: Cyrus Daboo To: IMAPEXT , Lemonade , imap5@ietf.org Message-ID: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.1.0a1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; size=823 Subject: [imap5] Friends of IMAP (SIEVE, etc) dinner tonight X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 13:07:54 -0000 Hi folks, For those at the IETF meeting this week we are planning on our usual "Friends of IMAP" dinner tonight. The last session today ends at 19:40, so I suggest those interested meet at 20:00 in the Hilton lobby. The following suggestion has been made for a place to go: One suggestion is a casual place (kind of an upscale coffee house/cafe) that has great food and tons of coffee and tea varieties and drink, plus lots of desserts. They even have organic burgers from a local farm. They're a short walk from the Hilton or conference center, just down the main drag into old town. Cafe Resto Tatum St-Jean, Quebec City, Quebec, Canada 1-418-687-8800 I was not planning on attempting to book a table unless we have a lot of people interested in going. -- Cyrus Daboo From randy@qualcomm.com Thu Jul 28 06:17:04 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 923EA21F8C5D; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 06:17:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yTVnjcuSHpHz; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 06:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine01.qualcomm.com (wolverine01.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.254]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D54D321F8C1E; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 06:17:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=randy@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1311859023; x=1343395023; h=message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:date:to:from: subject:mime-version:content-type:x-random-sig-tag: x-originating-ip; z=Message-ID:=20 |In-Reply-To:=20|References:=20|X-Mailer:=20Eudora=20for=20Mac=20 OS=20X|Date:=20Thu,=2028=20Jul=202011=2006:16:56=20-0700 |To:=20Cyrus=20Daboo=20,=20IMAPEXT=20,=20Lemonade=0D=0A=09,=20|From:=20Randall=20Gellens=20|Subject:=20Re:=20[imap5]=20Friends=20of =20IMAP=20(SIEVE,=20etc)=20dinner=20tonight|MIME-Version: =201.0|Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3D"us-asci i"=3B=20format=3Dflowed|X-Random-Sig-Tag:=201.0b28 |X-Originating-IP:=20[172.30.39.5]; bh=6Urk1i0gWppCc5l/s6w+IV5Cbnx0bS5yEuNrzBCBX48=; b=Wc0UR6mggwggXg9+1hd7UmPHqktJotNgPimmqRZDFdCFJCBwWzwQOWkR TIjFPsYkv3s+lDiQcz7hr+/ulerwRa3FRZuz6XFEuROhXy1O5+GAN0Rzx vOIN6teHUEgSzxAzmvwA4hlXjvn3XcIVwez0yJF8KX2YH7kZp/bZoSf4B I=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5400,1158,6420"; a="106484377" Received: from ironmsg02-l.qualcomm.com ([172.30.48.16]) by wolverine01.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 28 Jul 2011 06:17:03 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,279,1309762800"; d="scan'208";a="118425371" Received: from nasanexhc08.na.qualcomm.com ([172.30.39.7]) by ironmsg02-L.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 28 Jul 2011 06:17:03 -0700 Received: from [130.129.83.90] (172.30.39.5) by qcmail1.qualcomm.com (172.30.39.7) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.0; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 06:17:02 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 06:16:56 -0700 To: Cyrus Daboo , IMAPEXT , Lemonade , From: Randall Gellens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 X-Originating-IP: [172.30.39.5] Subject: Re: [imap5] Friends of IMAP (SIEVE, etc) dinner tonight X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 13:17:04 -0000 Just asking, but would it be possible to skip the last session in favor of an earlier dinner? Meet at 6:30 instead of 8:00? At 3:07 PM -0400 7/28/11, Cyrus Daboo wrote: > Hi folks, > For those at the IETF meeting this week we are planning on our > usual "Friends of IMAP" dinner tonight. The last session today ends > at 19:40, so I suggest those interested meet at 20:00 in the Hilton > lobby. > > The following suggestion has been made for a place to go: > > One suggestion is a casual place (kind of an upscale coffee house/cafe) > that has great food and tons of coffee and tea varieties and drink, > plus lots of desserts. They even have organic burgers from a local > farm. > > They're a short walk from the Hilton or conference center, just down > the main drag into old town. > > Cafe Resto Tatum > St-Jean, Quebec City, Quebec, Canada > 1-418-687-8800 > > I was not planning on attempting to book a table unless we have a > lot of people interested in going. > > -- > Cyrus Daboo > > _______________________________________________ > imap5 mailing list > imap5@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imap5 -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- An algorithm must be seen to be believed. -- Donald Knuth From cyrus@daboo.name Thu Jul 28 06:27:25 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F074C21F8877; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 06:27:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.394 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.394 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.069, BAYES_00=-2.599, DATE_IN_FUTURE_03_06=0.274, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cQfExUlzTK50; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 06:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from daboo.name (daboo.name [151.201.22.177]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F39521F886A; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 06:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7B2D17F89B3; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 09:27:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daboo.name Received: from daboo.name ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (daboo.name [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bc0SJ-G7DG9W; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 09:27:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dhcp-2524.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-2524.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.37.36]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 934DD17F89A2; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 09:27:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 15:27:18 -0400 From: Cyrus Daboo To: Randall Gellens , IMAPEXT , Lemonade , imap5@ietf.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.1.0a1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; size=372 Subject: Re: [imap5] Friends of IMAP (SIEVE, etc) dinner tonight X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 13:27:26 -0000 Hi Randall, --On July 28, 2011 6:16:56 AM -0700 Randall Gellens wrote: > Just asking, but would it be possible to skip the last session in favor > of an earlier dinner? Meet at 6:30 instead of 8:00? HyBi is one of the last sessions and I think there are a few people that want to go to that (not essential for me). Anyone else? -- Cyrus Daboo From tony@att.com Thu Jul 28 07:11:30 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF38921F8C7E; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 07:11:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.94 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.94 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.659, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H3K9JwN0Dh6G; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 07:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail120.messagelabs.com (mail120.messagelabs.com [216.82.250.83]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8579121F8C82; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 07:11:29 -0700 (PDT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: tony@att.com X-Msg-Ref: server-15.tower-120.messagelabs.com!1311862286!30096048!1 X-StarScan-Version: 6.2.17; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [144.160.20.145] Received: (qmail 24507 invoked from network); 28 Jul 2011 14:11:27 -0000 Received: from sbcsmtp6.sbc.com (HELO mlpd192.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com) (144.160.20.145) by server-15.tower-120.messagelabs.com with DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 28 Jul 2011 14:11:27 -0000 Received: from enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mlpd192.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p6SEBpEB016331; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:11:52 -0400 Received: from alpd052.aldc.att.com (alpd052.aldc.att.com [130.8.42.31]) by mlpd192.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p6SEBnHg016276; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:11:49 -0400 Received: from aldc.att.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by alpd052.aldc.att.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p6SEBNfI031536; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:11:23 -0400 Received: from dns.maillennium.att.com (dns.maillennium.att.com [135.25.114.99]) by alpd052.aldc.att.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p6SEBGw7031313; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:11:16 -0400 Received: from [135.70.29.27] (vpn-135-70-29-27.vpn.west.att.com[135.70.29.27]) by maillennium.att.com (mailgw1) with ESMTP id <20110728141113gw100e4lfle> (Authid: tony); Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:11:15 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [135.70.29.27] Message-ID: <4E316DFD.7010809@att.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:11:09 -0400 From: Tony Hansen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cyrus Daboo References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Randall Gellens , IMAPEXT , Lemonade , imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Friends of IMAP (SIEVE, etc) dinner tonight X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:11:31 -0000 kitten's also in the 1740-1940 timeslot. Tony On 7/28/2011 3:27 PM, Cyrus Daboo wrote: > > Hi Randall, > > --On July 28, 2011 6:16:56 AM -0700 Randall Gellens > wrote: > >> Just asking, but would it be possible to skip the last session in favor >> of an earlier dinner? Meet at 6:30 instead of 8:00? > > HyBi is one of the last sessions and I think there are a few people > that want to go to that (not essential for me). Anyone else? > From randy@qualcomm.com Thu Jul 28 07:17:24 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C6C121F8B1E; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 07:17:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BqA8PPsR42QO; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 07:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine02.qualcomm.com (wolverine02.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.251]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E85A421F8B20; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 07:17:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=randy@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1311862643; x=1343398643; h=message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:date:to:from: subject:cc:mime-version:content-type:x-random-sig-tag: x-originating-ip; z=Message-ID:=20 |In-Reply-To:=20<4E316DFD.7010809@att.com>|References:=20 =0D =0A=20=0D=0A=20=0D=0A =20<4E316DFD.7010809@att.com>|X-Mailer:=20Eudora=20for=20 Mac=20OS=20X|Date:=20Thu,=2028=20Jul=202011=2007:15:28=20 -0700|To:=20Tony=20Hansen=20,=20Cyrus=20Dab oo=20|From:=20Randall=20Gellens=20|Subject:=20Re:=20[lemonade]=20[imap5]=20F riends=20of=20IMAP=20(SIEVE,=20etc)=20dinner=0D=0A=20toni ght|CC:=20Randall=20Gellens=20,=20IMA PEXT=20,=0D=0A=09Lemonade=20,=20|MIME-Version:=201.0 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3D"us-ascii"=3B =20format=3Dflowed|X-Random-Sig-Tag:=201.0b28 |X-Originating-IP:=20[172.30.39.5]; bh=i96yOJkBtKcdUTbGvK8iWd5h2HQ2xDbbdVlven+dqlA=; b=lc7kpVHtpYDVS1lbgrlWuwJl0Q7VljLPjX1Hgpp7bgfILkg2JepEAWKh Whjo+WGO1fCHbu1npI2mlaJvnUEQB9nLmld5ihqymKY9lFGPGvmJBG6de YZcEINFU9enbJ4uAGUhX/iYXRCjaGIO2upNkIcSXSaebOLpIvqbLCc6bj I=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5400,1158,6420"; a="106296403" Received: from ironmsg04-r.qualcomm.com ([172.30.46.18]) by wolverine02.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 28 Jul 2011 07:17:23 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,282,1309762800"; d="scan'208";a="102085086" Received: from nasanexhc08.na.qualcomm.com ([172.30.39.7]) by Ironmsg04-R.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 28 Jul 2011 07:17:23 -0700 Received: from [130.129.83.90] (172.30.39.5) by qcmail1.qualcomm.com (172.30.39.7) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.0; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 07:17:22 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4E316DFD.7010809@att.com> References: <4E316DFD.7010809@att.com> X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 07:15:28 -0700 To: Tony Hansen , Cyrus Daboo From: Randall Gellens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 X-Originating-IP: [172.30.39.5] Cc: Randall Gellens , IMAPEXT , Lemonade , imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] [lemonade] Friends of IMAP (SIEVE, etc) dinner tonight X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:17:24 -0000 At 10:11 AM -0400 7/28/11, Tony Hansen wrote: > kitten's also in the 1740-1940 timeslot. Are you saying you need to go to that and hence can't make an earlier dinner, or are you just noting that some people may prefer kitten? -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- It seems like the less a statesman amounts to, the more he loves the flag. From brong@fastmail.fm Thu Jul 28 08:05:58 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 413D921F8538; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 08:05:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z8ypmgJ-VNLL; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 08:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4.smtp.messagingengine.com (out4.smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBD0221F8AAC; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 08:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.46]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8040F20D4A; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 11:05:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend2.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.161]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 28 Jul 2011 11:05:45 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id :references:mime-version:content-type:in-reply-to; s=smtpout; bh=g4f8E+07674dLMfT05UlysG/c0Y=; b=rsJtsiCzOldek3E3Es+Ae9kpqi0Y MLUQ9lkl7rJV8FAMZTcpP31Ck+0P7tbRkYVyryzC5RHdXsUSKZNfz9WvTI0sx8QP A03ajsLad8f5HkWXUE5tK/SnaS37dRbTcDnqrq/D1DpBdLUlwPKOcTQFpWf9bxNb 2oBeUK6XYdHyt6w= X-Sasl-enc: 0BJ/zJeJ0bW/RZYqCPIiZrHbHMy02QiJtu4MQ/7wGx9+ 1311865545 Received: from localhost (56.243.9.46.customer.cdi.no [46.9.243.56]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 42AB8455486; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 11:05:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5BE9C202E9; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 17:05:44 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 17:05:44 +0200 From: Bron Gondwana To: Cyrus Daboo Message-ID: <20110728150544.GA3042@brong.net> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: brong.net User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: IMAPEXT , Lemonade , imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] Friends of IMAP (SIEVE, etc) dinner tonight X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 15:05:58 -0000 On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 03:07:50PM -0400, Cyrus Daboo wrote: > Hi folks, > For those at the IETF meeting this week we are planning on our usual > "Friends of IMAP" dinner tonight. The last session today ends at > 19:40, so I suggest those interested meet at 20:00 in the Hilton > lobby. One of these days I'll have to convince my work to send me to one of these conferences. Then maybe we can talk without the unhappy arguments of email discussions! Bron. From barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Thu Jul 28 10:08:30 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DC1421F8865; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:08:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.058 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.058 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.081, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PA+kwYOEYRTe; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f172.google.com (mail-gx0-f172.google.com [209.85.161.172]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A363021F880C; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19so2402202gxk.31 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:08:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=5iiBgh0x9HMCIFSWTZz97SMmyBKGOR790EKfecF90eE=; b=MOmeT8iKTocoD3sZvb5BYuva7nJZbKX8uej8y3wRORpuV83wCwUzmloXY9yTFkKyQ4 sURBfv0Btz8StPFlh97KIaoosFRC021qlbBgeeSu9QHaPq7Q7hDy0F8nhkHlutJ8wrz6 tTWxo3d1qshPL7nNAOWGtIYyA5870FvDzQ3tk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.236.156.7 with SMTP id l7mr257052yhk.415.1311872909143; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Received: by 10.147.32.15 with HTTP; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:08:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 13:08:29 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: bH_V1E46GZ6WAU8b6nDOrcgEIgI Message-ID: From: Barry Leiba To: Cyrus Daboo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: IMAPEXT , Lemonade , imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] [lemonade] Friends of IMAP (SIEVE, etc) dinner tonight X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 17:08:30 -0000 > The following suggestion has been made for a place to go: > > =A0 One suggestion is a casual place (kind of an upscale coffee house/caf= e) > =A0 that has great food and tons of coffee and tea varieties and drink, > =A0 plus lots of desserts. =A0They even have organic burgers from a local > =A0 farm. > > =A0 They're a short walk from the Hilton or conference center, just down > =A0 the main drag into old town. > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Cafe Resto Tatum > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0St-Jean, Quebec City, Quebec, Canada > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A01-418-687-8800 Sounds fine. And no, no earlier time. There are sessions. People go to sessions. Voil= =E0. Barry From randy@qualcomm.com Thu Jul 28 11:57:55 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7324E21F859C; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 11:57:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 77vEm8mm4V+c; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 11:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolverine01.qualcomm.com (wolverine01.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.254]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBB0C21F8586; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 11:57:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qualcomm.com; i=randy@qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1311879474; x=1343415474; h=message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:date:to:from: subject:cc:mime-version:content-type:x-random-sig-tag: x-originating-ip; z=Message-ID:=20 |In-Reply-To:=20|References:=20=0D=0A=20|X-Mailer:=20Eudora=20for=20Mac=20OS=20X|Date:=20Thu,=20 28=20Jul=202011=2011:53:48=20-0700|To:=20Barry=20Leiba=20 ,=20Cyrus=20Daboo=20|From:=20Randall=20Gellens=20 |Subject:=20Re:=20[imap5]=20[lemonade]=20Friends=20of=20I MAP=20(SIEVE,=20etc)=20dinner=0D=0A=20tonight|CC:=20IMAPE XT=20,=20Lemonade=20,=0D=0A=09|MIME-Version:=201.0 |Content-Type:=20text/plain=3B=20charset=3D"us-ascii"=3B =20format=3Dflowed|X-Random-Sig-Tag:=201.0b28 |X-Originating-IP:=20[172.30.48.1]; bh=DSjffjTEr9FbueDi4THKyQ4E0zOtnUGWAd0zzpyp9/4=; b=heI8MWRqq/u4qhwDQ5OgKH7eKqPjb6MeNBcO4HHTUYh3hStJJnDaexRg 34Sh0UI0qjj8ZUBKcPzV+sWFjyDjZ18rhPKAVwUTREMEQKMWOmHgOoZRF AjlSbC2wQjwluhh3wAzwAMI3Bc/FbVqIRjS8Ju5AoBWsU4sHKJrg6l08B k=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5400,1158,6421"; a="106600544" Received: from ironmsg04-l.qualcomm.com ([172.30.48.19]) by wolverine01.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 28 Jul 2011 11:57:54 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.67,282,1309762800"; d="scan'208";a="54859910" Received: from nasanexhc05.na.qualcomm.com ([172.30.48.2]) by Ironmsg04-L.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 28 Jul 2011 11:57:54 -0700 Received: from [130.129.83.90] (172.30.48.1) by qcmail1.qualcomm.com (172.30.48.2) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.0; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 11:57:53 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Eudora for Mac OS X Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 11:53:48 -0700 To: Barry Leiba , Cyrus Daboo From: Randall Gellens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Random-Sig-Tag: 1.0b28 X-Originating-IP: [172.30.48.1] Cc: IMAPEXT , Lemonade , imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] [lemonade] Friends of IMAP (SIEVE, etc) dinner tonight X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 18:57:55 -0000 At 1:08 PM -0400 7/28/11, Barry Leiba wrote: > And no, no earlier time. Fair enough. Since the restaurant is a short, straight shot down the main drag into old town, can we at least pick a hard time for leaving the hotel, say 8:10? That's a full 30 minutes from the end of the last session, which should be enough for dropping off laptops, etc. Any stragglers can easily join us later. -- Randall Gellens Opinions are personal; facts are suspect; I speak for myself only -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- Never write software that patronizes the user. From cyrus@daboo.name Thu Jul 28 12:00:08 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95F7C11E818D; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 12:00:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.508 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.508 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.091, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eKiqub491t7j; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 12:00:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from daboo.name (daboo.name [151.201.22.177]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3F2611E816C; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 12:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1568317FB3F9; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 15:00:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daboo.name Received: from daboo.name ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (daboo.name [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dHO1ApygRkDs; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 15:00:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dhcp-2524.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-2524.meeting.ietf.org [130.129.37.36]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 43F5817FB3EC; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:59:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 15:00:09 -0400 From: Cyrus Daboo To: Randall Gellens , Barry Leiba Message-ID: <09E8FF0ED5A91F3AC62D3688@dhcp-2524.meeting.ietf.org> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.1.0a1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; size=485 Cc: IMAPEXT , Lemonade , imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] [lemonade] Friends of IMAP (SIEVE, etc) dinner tonight X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 19:00:08 -0000 Hi Randall, --On July 28, 2011 11:53:48 AM -0700 Randall Gellens wrote: > Since the restaurant is a short, straight shot down the main drag into > old town, can we at least pick a hard time for leaving the hotel, say > 8:10? That's a full 30 minutes from the end of the last session, which > should be enough for dropping off laptops, etc. Any stragglers can > easily join us later. That's fine - we start walking at 8:10 pm no matter what. -- Cyrus Daboo From tony@att.com Thu Jul 28 12:45:37 2011 Return-Path: X-Original-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: imap5@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D093521F86A0; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 12:45:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.325 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.325 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, MISSING_HEADERS=1.292, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UIU3uOtDnIds; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 12:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail120.messagelabs.com (mail120.messagelabs.com [216.82.250.83]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6B5F21F8686; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 12:45:36 -0700 (PDT) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: tony@att.com X-Msg-Ref: server-5.tower-120.messagelabs.com!1311882335!30145796!1 X-StarScan-Version: 6.2.17; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [144.160.20.145] Received: (qmail 948 invoked from network); 28 Jul 2011 19:45:36 -0000 Received: from sbcsmtp6.sbc.com (HELO mlpd192.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com) (144.160.20.145) by server-5.tower-120.messagelabs.com with DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 28 Jul 2011 19:45:36 -0000 Received: from enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mlpd192.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p6SJk0ti029071; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 15:46:01 -0400 Received: from alpd052.aldc.att.com (alpd052.aldc.att.com [130.8.42.31]) by mlpd192.enaf.sfdc.sbc.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p6SJjtwc028962; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 15:45:57 -0400 Received: from aldc.att.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by alpd052.aldc.att.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p6SJjTvk005280; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 15:45:29 -0400 Received: from mailgw1.maillennium.att.com (mailgw1.maillennium.att.com [135.25.114.99]) by alpd052.aldc.att.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p6SJjMmw005139; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 15:45:23 -0400 Received: from [135.70.29.27] (vpn-135-70-29-27.vpn.west.att.com[135.70.29.27]) by maillennium.att.com (mailgw1) with ESMTP id <20110728194521gw100e4lgle> (Authid: tony); Thu, 28 Jul 2011 19:45:22 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [135.70.29.27] Message-ID: <4E31BC47.904@att.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 15:45:11 -0400 From: Tony Hansen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:5.0) Gecko/20110624 Thunderbird/5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <09E8FF0ED5A91F3AC62D3688@dhcp-2524.meeting.ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <09E8FF0ED5A91F3AC62D3688@dhcp-2524.meeting.ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: IMAPEXT , Lemonade , imap5@ietf.org Subject: Re: [imap5] [lemonade] Friends of IMAP (SIEVE, etc) dinner tonight X-BeenThere: imap5@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion on drastically slimming-down IMAP." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 19:45:37 -0000 +1 On 7/28/2011 3:00 PM, Cyrus Daboo wrote: > That's fine - we start walking at 8:10 pm no matter what. >