From nobody Fri Mar 3 15:58:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietf.org Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 073B61299BC; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 15:55:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.46.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148858532501.15846.9762062006001996808.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 15:55:25 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: int-area@ietf.org Subject: [Int-area] intarea - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 98 X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 23:55:25 -0000 Dear Wassim Haddad, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. intarea Session 1 (1:30:00) Tuesday, Afternoon Session I 1300-1430 Room Name: Zurich D size: 250 --------------------------------------------- Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Internet Area Working Group Area Name: Internet Area Session Requester: Wassim Haddad Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: lpwan 6tisch 6man homenet v6ops irtfopen 6lo dhc saag lisp nvo3 t2trg Second Priority: softwire sunset4 tsvwg dnsop netconf nfvrg Third Priority: anima maprg tcpinc People who must be present: Wassim Haddad Suresh Krishnan Juan Carlos Zuniga Resources Requested: Projector in room Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Mon Mar 6 13:10:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 884D11294F1 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 13:09:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=ieee-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aKyylmKxsdUa for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 13:09:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot0-x236.google.com (mail-ot0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E15861294C3 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 13:09:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot0-x236.google.com with SMTP id i1so122289685ota.3 for ; Mon, 06 Mar 2017 13:09:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ieee-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DLld2NbjUBx0KU3xO52NxsUCaE4rlXbkMtdDxBc5moM=; b=LIJ5o0rvyMOsQsHGi0+sGeDXEBohYK6Zj529rhRc2BZmK8f3zLWLU0ADDkinGY30+P 505dLsJaCr6SQCl8IzMbDy9NJQHXjesEENrK9yBe8K/l4JuogwWWbLswSSvOTpAQAutr zV5Dtuh+f6lTBLmt+U5PoZTMR2rkKtN81/dLhsHqI3ZiXtar0Uic4y6hADzNs2xF5LeI uKKhJpzGCCyTi2ilg5d27oigZrGsjkQqU8VQqtRXC72PHwT+nDbeSDffJvOdR6ABYy9u O7xwu+qkJzb3nvbIVQzpCEhnPxgAQfYunB1pH+dmh//Hata8wn4oRGlPz2CbVIhCfwC7 NFLg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DLld2NbjUBx0KU3xO52NxsUCaE4rlXbkMtdDxBc5moM=; b=ulxzNmm2MhlG6G7XoVUmy4fvmLWBXxPpvyksiaSjDar7l3GS1UqEiIj71pHjMYxeHt hu2a8oACl0pOK3OlV8whR3/5asdJB+g4eXsYOk1tr+bz4g4ppLjxQ1helulpvethglr6 JwrMlRC81xlMT/l1wpuhTps38AS2uqIUyhkAAhyMthqVCnqzjya0C09wM3vv37K1QXzZ +qIKh3RjhHc+jhDXsN7oFz3oABcGhr4YccgVD8ozewLlFLZfxY0jNMVdliIF1gjzuWTe x36HmShSSEcBwlfjh8iDj0moea2Tq+e+XH7gA00agU8/DezXliE0lmklW7PdyoTYdc7i MlUw== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39mOTOEI9VyMTI/3QoNBEFn3KbgalGlH/WWgVbz6PU7lRxNv66HQ7fpeVGqc4WNKGKxeNnEN3tYEsJU2veEY X-Received: by 10.157.13.119 with SMTP id 110mr8130830oti.256.1488834595989; Mon, 06 Mar 2017 13:09:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.202.49.193 with HTTP; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 13:09:55 -0800 (PST) From: Juan Carlos Zuniga Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 22:09:55 +0100 Message-ID: To: int-area@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113ddf44394e90054a16518b Archived-At: Subject: [Int-area] WGLC for draft-ietf-intarea-broadcast-consider X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 21:09:58 -0000 --001a113ddf44394e90054a16518b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Dear Int-Area WG, A review of draft-ietf-intarea-broadcast-consider has been published. Since there was good support for this document from the beginning and the new version addresses the pending comments, we believe it is ready for WG Last Call. This email starts an Int-Area WG Last Call on: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-intarea-broadcast-consider-02 Please respond to this email to support the document and/or send comments by 2017-03-20. In addition, to satisfy RFC 6702 "Promoting Compliance with Intellectual Property Rights (IPR)": Are you personally aware of any IPR that applies to draft-ietf-intarea-hostname-practice? If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules? (See RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669, and 5378 for more details.) Best, Juan Carlos Zuniga & Wassim Haddad (Int-Area WG co-chairs) --001a113ddf44394e90054a16518b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Int-Area WG,
=C2=A0
A review= of draft-ietf-intarea-broadcast-consider has been published. Since there w= as good support for this document from the beginning and the new version ad= dresses the pending comments, we believe it is ready for WG Last Call.
=C2=A0
This email starts an Int-Area WG Last Call on:
=
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Please respond to this= email to support the document and/or send comments by 2017-03-20.
=C2=A0
In addition, to satisfy RFC 6702 "Promoting Complia= nce with Intellectual Property Rights (IPR)":
Are you person= ally aware of any IPR that applies to draft-ietf-intarea-hostname-practice?= =C2=A0
If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF= IPR rules?
(See RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669, and 5378 for more details= .)
=C2=A0
Best,
=C2=A0
Juan Carlos = Zuniga & Wassim Haddad
(Int-Area WG co-chairs)
--001a113ddf44394e90054a16518b-- From nobody Mon Mar 6 13:12:46 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 076D1129984 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 04:29:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.512 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.512 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP 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Mar 2017 06:29:37 -0600 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Erik Nordmark , Richard Li , "int-area@ietf.org" , Wassim Haddad , "Dorothy Stanley (DStanley@arubanetworks.com)" Thread-Topic: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP over Intentionally Partitioned Links Thread-Index: AQHScpxO+lEWKzah3E+5mqsDI9bBLaFKUEuAgAEwkQCAEd1yAIABTo8AgCMAPNA= Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 12:29:12 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 12:28:35 +0000 Message-ID: <425de076ca264ac0bca2fc56aa4b60c6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> References: <923f7967-0e76-fa13-9cd3-fc5e153df784@acm.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.22.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_425de076ca264ac0bca2fc56aa4b60c6XCHRCD001ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 13:12:44 -0800 Subject: Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP over Intentionally Partitioned Links X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 12:29:45 -0000 --_000_425de076ca264ac0bca2fc56aa4b60c6XCHRCD001ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGVsbG8gRXJpayA6DQoNCg0KDQpQbGVhc2Ugc2VlIGlubGluZToNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoqIFNwbGl0 dGluZyBhIHN1Ym5ldCBpbiBzZXZlcmFsIEwyIGRvbWFpbnMgd2l0aCBMMyB0dW5uZWxzIGludGVy Y29ubmVjdGlvbiBpcyBhIGRpZmZlcmVudCBiZWFzdCwgeWV0IHdvdWxkIGZpdCBpbiB0aGUgZ2Vu ZXJpYyB0ZXJtIG9mIElQUEwuIElzIGl0IHRoZSBpbnRlbnRpb24gdGhhdCB0aG9zZSBhcmUgY292 ZXJlZD8NCg0KDQoNCkRlcGVuZHMgb24gdGhlIElQIGNvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb24gYXNzb2NpYXRlZCB3 aXRoIHRob3NlIHR1bm5lbHMuIElmIElQIGF0IGJvdGggZW5kcyBhZ3JlZSB0aGF0IHRoZSB0dW5u ZWwgaXMgYXNzaWduZWQgdGhlIHNhbWUgcHJlZml4IChpLmUuIGJvdGggZW5kcyB0aGluayBpdCBp 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Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.947.7 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 10:00:51 +0000 Received: from HE1PR04MB1449.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.176.11]) by HE1PR04MB1449.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.176.11]) with mapi id 15.01.0947.020; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 10:00:51 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Stephane Bortzmeyer Thread-Topic: Adding IPv10 to the IETF 98 Agenda. Thread-Index: AQHSlyKAEivelJDpN06ypDehp7ZizKGJJRFA Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 10:00:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20170307090849.jyl7fqqbn3icjw7a@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: <20170307090849.jyl7fqqbn3icjw7a@nic.fr> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: nic.fr; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;nic.fr; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:9DEA0E5C683DF78E12DDD27C9CE9F2966D109D7B8246BC5621A7240211380D2A; UpperCasedChecksum:1279F7ED077D37C60A0EAB75163A236BE45346A0803F406BE812198359A8DD44; SizeAsReceived:7792; Count:39 x-tmn: [Giw3xO69uZS8HomK+0ttYX/U4aNCsBtK] x-incomingheadercount: 39 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; VE1EUR02HT221; 5:ooeNG7zKjo11dWQub3J+c41xvEXbvKfwsy8Vgo9WDN5BxotN3oLwC/dj51W2Yp8LAUXL4OIcc3DJJSnOxlPXF9bVEyACkwicg1FoJbw3RxrkysEonkftimWmguieLpWRyrmOg4n65t5j3LPlYEOARqnhTl97Wib3ncR+jEtQC+s=; 24:8EYHdc0FOXwGh4iIPe+MtCjarsJcR/+kxAK8fBnxVhOcBwlLezf2B276IZ3ClsOoz0A82f3B1HMIulednN3bieDKM68ML1MTuLcj4ZI+iFI=; 7:ODr6LioV/EucHxw05LFO3iiT5VVLi0cRGPZmGmlEXoc2HkM+BijH9Wf0A6T1gvsJexpn6M6v3NkvpU+2LPU5t0T0Erp7kRapB2tn1sizp1CGuQVO4W77CuJR2z+MYqg3GDbowrMAmFkRSxCYMytkraUY/Z4dZTi/lub4+PPxKo6wJsNJFKSt9NCn3H+P+nAe5qG6n9y175ZdCfe7wEw66ydFT5YUCMshJNIr0Lb+ztKfo3AtguAXa4mpiMEi+A5RbttpqV0Xl2stgr7uI4TR/D9oXrvFQ7+EmNGeEqQBC4cxG/bG+kW5vPiRbSvOh1X1 x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(98900016); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:VE1EUR02HT221; H:HE1PR04MB1449.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 1d3a6f76-81fe-4a75-236a-08d46540d61e x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(201702061074)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(1601125254)(1603101448)(1701031045); SRVR:VE1EUR02HT221; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(432015087)(444000031); SRVR:VE1EUR02HT221; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:VE1EUR02HT221; x-forefront-prvs: 0239D46DB6 spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Mar 2017 10:00:51.0069 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VE1EUR02HT221 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Mar 2017 10:00:54.0534 (UTC) FILETIME=[B5B7CA60:01D29729] Archived-At: Cc: "int-area@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Int-area] Adding IPv10 to the IETF 98 Agenda. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2017 10:00:57 -0000 > Good. IETF is too serious. We need a "wild ideas" session, with IPv10,=20 > miraculous DNS alternatives, and everything over the blockchain :-) I hope so, many ideas by all participants will make the best final version= . Khaled -----Original Message----- From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr]=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2017 11:09 AM To: Khaled Omar Cc: ietf@ietf.org Subject: Re: Adding IPv10 to the IETF 98 Agenda. On Mon, Mar 06, 2017 at 05:02:38PM +0000, Khaled Omar wrote a message of 83 lines which said: > finally I got a positive response from one of the Internet Area Chairs=20 > and will be waiting for that discussion during the IETF 98 meeting. Good. IETF is too serious. We need a "wild ideas" session, with IPv10, mira= culous DNS alternatives, and everything over the blockchain :-) From nobody Tue Mar 7 06:17:53 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF574129B3F for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 05:29:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZaSb7pLz7n7Z for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 05:28:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from fly.RZ.HS-Augsburg.DE (fly.RZ.HS-Augsburg.DE [141.82.217.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 804B71295D7 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 05:28:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fly.RZ.HS-Augsburg.DE (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB7C61D6081 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:28:34 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at hs-augsburg.de Received: from fly.RZ.HS-Augsburg.DE ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (fly.rz.hs-augsburg.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id LLTPapJGx-g8 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:28:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.148] (nightswatch.informatik.hs-augsburg.de [141.82.79.79]) by fly.RZ.HS-Augsburg.DE (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7CB441D63E4 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:28:32 +0100 (CET) To: int-area@ietf.org References: From: Rolf Winter Organization: Conntac Message-ID: Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:28:33 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] WGLC for draft-ietf-intarea-broadcast-consider X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2017 13:29:02 -0000 Dear chairs, I am not aware of any IPR related to this document. Best, Rolf Am 3/6/17 um 10:09 PM schrieb Juan Carlos Zuniga: > Dear Int-Area WG, > > A review of draft-ietf-intarea-broadcast-consider has been published. > Since there was good support for this document from the beginning and > the new version addresses the pending comments, we believe it is ready > for WG Last Call. > > This email starts an Int-Area WG Last Call on: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-intarea-broadcast-consider-02 > > Please respond to this email to support the document and/or send > comments by 2017-03-20. > > In addition, to satisfy RFC 6702 "Promoting Compliance with Intellectual > Property Rights (IPR)": > Are you personally aware of any IPR that applies to > draft-ietf-intarea-hostname-practice? > If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules? > (See RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669, and 5378 for more details.) > > Best, > > Juan Carlos Zuniga & Wassim Haddad > (Int-Area WG co-chairs) > > > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > From nobody Tue Mar 7 11:22:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34952129426; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 11:22:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XNmyBPXCWvbM; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 11:22:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from usplmg20.ericsson.net (usplmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 863B7129420; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 11:22:30 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c618062d-14208980000009d8-89-58bf193d6c79 Received: from EUSAAHC003.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.81]) by (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 1E.58.02520.D391FB85; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 21:34:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from [155.53.33.99] (147.117.188.8) by smtp-am.internal.ericsson.com (147.117.188.83) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.319.2; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 14:22:27 -0500 From: Wassim Haddad Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_587AE290-13D2-4C0B-B25A-E5367459292E" Message-ID: <2AFE1E53-903F-4D18-AB1E-072812343AE8@ericsson.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 11:22:29 -0800 References: To: "int-area@ietf.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrDLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPoK6d5P4Igy3P+S1uzLrJYjH7gZcD k8eSJT+ZAhijuGxSUnMyy1KL9O0SuDKWTLzPUvDXumLujevsDYwTTbsYOTkkBEwkLh48xN7F yMUhJLCeUeLwllnMEM4aRolfn9rYQKrYBAwkvi4/ywpiMwskSew4eQgszitgL/H971IWCFtP YtaV90wgtrCAh8TKfd/B6lkEVCT6Hv8HquEAGmovcXiVKsQYWYkJX56wg9giAtoS+58cYIE4 SFbiyclFYLaQgLrElFsTWCYw8s1CsnkWkm0QcW2JZQtfM88C2sAsoCmxfpc+qjCIrSHROmcu +wJGtlWMHKXFBTm56UYGmxiBYXhMgk13B+P96Z6HGAU4GJV4eA2Y90cIsSaWFVfmHmKU4GBW EuF9zQoU4k1JrKxKLcqPLyrNSS0+xCjNwaIkzhu3+n64kEB6YklqdmpqQWoRTJaJg1OqgXFG 7YbJ8TozNBiZn76Wimzv+nZv/q2VxhLlBkkLMmTjV+lNaJ7/v339S9f/Z5dkfXjCqO6YV+m7 Zd72HYKnXRPUD6RXvo00Tvhscv3cxWl2JffaWa99ufNs9ppad2bLOUnu2/vXvfy5wmzmOk/R BtmgJP56/7+u/vltdyZUb+1I8W9iOPJ9iYsSS3FGoqEWc1FxIgCbkDHyPwIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: intarea-chairs@ietf.org Subject: [Int-area] Fwd: WG Adoption Call: IP over Intentionally Partitioned Links X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2017 19:22:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_587AE290-13D2-4C0B-B25A-E5367459292E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Dear all, As we prefer not to take silence as consent, please (re)-take a look at = draft-nordmark-intarea-ippl: =20 https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-nordmark-intarea-ippl-05.txt = Please state whether you think the document is ready for WG adoption and = if you would be willing to review the document if it is adopted by the = WG Regards, JC & Wassim > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: Wassim Haddad > Subject: WG Adoption Call: IP over Intentionally Partitioned Links=20 > Date: January 19, 2017 at 13:39:27 PST > To: "int-area@ietf.org" > Cc: Wassim Haddad , Juan Carlos Zuniga = >=20 > Dear all, >=20 > We would like to start a WG adoption call for = draft-nordmark-intarea-ippl-05 ("IP over Intentionally Partitioned = Links=E2=80=9D). > Please indicate your preferences on the mailling list. The deadline is = Februray 3rd. >=20 >=20 > Regards, >=20 > JC & Wassim --Apple-Mail=_587AE290-13D2-4C0B-B25A-E5367459292E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Dear all,

As we prefer not = to take silence as consent, please (re)-take a look at = draft-nordmark-intarea-ippl:

 


Please state = whether you think the document is ready for WG adoption and if you would = be willing to review the document if it is adopted by the WG


Regards,

JC & Wassim




Begin forwarded message:

From: = Wassim Haddad <wassim.haddad@ericsson.com>
Subject: = WG Adoption Call: = IP over Intentionally Partitioned Links
Date: = January 19, 2017 at 13:39:27 = PST
To: = "int-area@ietf.org" = <int-area@ietf.org>
Cc: Wassim Haddad <wassim.haddad@ericsson.com>, Juan Carlos Zuniga <j.c.zuniga@ieee.org>

Dear all,

We would like to start a WG adoption call for draft-nordmark-intarea-ippl-05 ("IP over Intentionally = Partitioned Links=E2=80=9D).
Please = indicate your preferences on the mailling list. The deadline is Februray = 3rd.


Regards,

JC & = Wassim

= --Apple-Mail=_587AE290-13D2-4C0B-B25A-E5367459292E-- From nobody Tue Mar 7 11:36:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3C2512940F for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 11:36:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kxQgz27gyWZH for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 11:36:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from nitro.isi.edu (nitro.isi.edu [128.9.208.207]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA19B12943D for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 11:36:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.9.184.171] ([128.9.184.171]) (authenticated bits=0) by nitro.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v27JZm7g005326 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 7 Mar 2017 11:35:48 -0800 (PST) To: Juan Carlos Zuniga , int-area@ietf.org References: From: Joe Touch Message-ID: Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 11:35:47 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A665FFB70FCEAA839AEE54D5" X-MailScanner-ID: v27JZm7g005326 X-ISI-4-69-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] WGLC for draft-ietf-intarea-broadcast-consider X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2017 19:36:11 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A665FFB70FCEAA839AEE54D5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, all, I think it would be useful to include a section explaining what is meant by broadcast and multicast, and the current state of these. In particular, highlighting the following as context for these consideration= s: - all 1's broadcast is supposed to never transit routers (RFC1812) - as a default, subnet-directed broadcast shouldn't be going past routers either (RFC2644) - multicast in IPv6 may have limited scope (e.g., not all uses are to "all-nodes") - duplicate address detection in IPv6 sends only to the multicast group that would be joined by another party with the same address - relays, such as for DHCP, proxy ARP, etc., can extend the scope of broadcast and multicast beyond the originator's original intent These each limit (or extend) who can see a broadcast/multicast message - and can be used in consideration of the extent to which information in the message leaks out. I.e., "all broadcast is not equal", and "all multicast is not equal". Joe On 3/6/2017 1:09 PM, Juan Carlos Zuniga wrote: > Dear Int-Area WG, > =20 > A review of draft-ietf-intarea-broadcast-consider has been published. > Since there was good support for this document from the beginning and > the new version addresses the pending comments, we believe it is ready > for WG Last Call. > =20 > This email starts an Int-Area WG Last Call on: > =20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-intarea-broadcast-consider-02 > =20 > Please respond to this email to support the document and/or send > comments by 2017-03-20. > =20 > In addition, to satisfy RFC 6702 "Promoting Compliance with > Intellectual Property Rights (IPR)": > Are you personally aware of any IPR that applies to > draft-ietf-intarea-hostname-practice?=20 > If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules? > (See RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669, and 5378 for more details.) > =20 > Best, > =20 > Juan Carlos Zuniga & Wassim Haddad > (Int-Area WG co-chairs) > > > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area --------------A665FFB70FCEAA839AEE54D5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi, all,

I think it would be useful to include a section explaining what is meant by broadcast and multicast, and the current state of these.  In particular, highlighting the following as context for these considerations:

    - all 1's broadcast is supposed to never transit routers (RFC1812)

    - as a default, subnet-directed broadcast shouldn't be going past routers either (RFC2644)

    - multicast in IPv6 may have limited scope (e.g., not all uses are to "all-nodes")

    - duplicate address detection in IPv6 sends only to the multicast group that would be joined by another party with the same address

    - relays, such as for DHCP, proxy ARP, etc., can extend the scope of broadcast and multicast beyond the originator's original intent

These each limit (or extend) who can see a broadcast/multicast message - and can be used in consideration of the extent to which information in the message leaks out.

I.e., "all broadcast is not equal", and "all multicast is not equal".

Joe



On 3/6/2017 1:09 PM, Juan Carlos Zuniga wrote:
Dear Int-Area WG,
 
A review of draft-ietf-intarea-broadcast-consider has been published. Since there was good support for this document from the beginning and the new version addresses the pending comments, we believe it is ready for WG Last Call.
 
This email starts an Int-Area WG Last Call on:
 
 
Please respond to this email to support the document and/or send comments by 2017-03-20.
 
In addition, to satisfy RFC 6702 "Promoting Compliance with Intellectual Property Rights (IPR)":
Are you personally aware of any IPR that applies to draft-ietf-intarea-hostname-practice? 
If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules?
(See RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669, and 5378 for more details.)
 
Best,
 
Juan Carlos Zuniga & Wassim Haddad
(Int-Area WG co-chairs)


_______________________________________________
Int-area mailing list
Int-area@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area

--------------A665FFB70FCEAA839AEE54D5-- From nobody Tue Mar 7 11:40:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83A891294A4 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 11:40:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RXq1sSBWfkO3 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 11:39:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from nitro.isi.edu (nitro.isi.edu [128.9.208.207]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72F2C12948F for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 11:39:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.9.184.171] ([128.9.184.171]) (authenticated bits=0) by nitro.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v27JdfPp007446 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 7 Mar 2017 11:39:41 -0800 (PST) To: Juan Carlos Zuniga , int-area@ietf.org References: From: Joe Touch Message-ID: <9578f7d8-dec1-2429-b784-8cfb00f4485d@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 11:39:38 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------B60B7BD9AE62DF60886D6D0C" X-MailScanner-ID: v27JdfPp007446 X-ISI-4-69-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] WGLC for draft-ietf-intarea-broadcast-consider X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2017 19:40:00 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B60B7BD9AE62DF60886D6D0C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FWIW, in addition, it would be useful to at least mention that LANE-style alternatives (RFC2225) to broadcast have similar issues with sharing information, but only with the centralized (broadcast/multicast) emulating server. Joe On 3/7/2017 11:35 AM, Joe Touch wrote: > > Hi, all, > > I think it would be useful to include a section explaining what is > meant by broadcast and multicast, and the current state of these. In > particular, highlighting the following as context for these > considerations: > > - all 1's broadcast is supposed to never transit routers (RFC1812) > > - as a default, subnet-directed broadcast shouldn't be going past > routers either (RFC2644) > > - multicast in IPv6 may have limited scope (e.g., not all uses are > to "all-nodes") > > - duplicate address detection in IPv6 sends only to the multicast > group that would be joined by another party with the same address > > - relays, such as for DHCP, proxy ARP, etc., can extend the scope > of broadcast and multicast beyond the originator's original intent > > These each limit (or extend) who can see a broadcast/multicast message > - and can be used in consideration of the extent to which information > in the message leaks out. > > I.e., "all broadcast is not equal", and "all multicast is not equal". > > Joe > > > > On 3/6/2017 1:09 PM, Juan Carlos Zuniga wrote: >> Dear Int-Area WG, >> >> A review of draft-ietf-intarea-broadcast-consider has been published. >> Since there was good support for this document from the beginning and >> the new version addresses the pending comments, we believe it is >> ready for WG Last Call. >> >> This email starts an Int-Area WG Last Call on: >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-intarea-broadcast-consider-02 >> >> Please respond to this email to support the document and/or send >> comments by 2017-03-20. >> >> In addition, to satisfy RFC 6702 "Promoting Compliance with >> Intellectual Property Rights (IPR)": >> Are you personally aware of any IPR that applies to >> draft-ietf-intarea-hostname-practice? >> If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules? >> (See RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669, and 5378 for more details.) >> >> Best, >> >> Juan Carlos Zuniga & Wassim Haddad >> (Int-Area WG co-chairs) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Int-area mailing list >> Int-area@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > --------------B60B7BD9AE62DF60886D6D0C Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

FWIW, in addition, it would be useful to at least mention that LANE-style alternatives (RFC2225) to broadcast have similar issues with sharing information, but only with the centralized (broadcast/multicast) emulating server.

Joe

On 3/7/2017 11:35 AM, Joe Touch wrote:

Hi, all,

I think it would be useful to include a section explaining what is meant by broadcast and multicast, and the current state of these.  In particular, highlighting the following as context for these considerations:

    - all 1's broadcast is supposed to never transit routers (RFC1812)

    - as a default, subnet-directed broadcast shouldn't be going past routers either (RFC2644)

    - multicast in IPv6 may have limited scope (e.g., not all uses are to "all-nodes")

    - duplicate address detection in IPv6 sends only to the multicast group that would be joined by another party with the same address

    - relays, such as for DHCP, proxy ARP, etc., can extend the scope of broadcast and multicast beyond the originator's original intent

These each limit (or extend) who can see a broadcast/multicast message - and can be used in consideration of the extent to which information in the message leaks out.

I.e., "all broadcast is not equal", and "all multicast is not equal".

Joe



On 3/6/2017 1:09 PM, Juan Carlos Zuniga wrote:
Dear Int-Area WG,
 
A review of draft-ietf-intarea-broadcast-consider has been published. Since there was good support for this document from the beginning and the new version addresses the pending comments, we believe it is ready for WG Last Call.
 
This email starts an Int-Area WG Last Call on:
 
 
Please respond to this email to support the document and/or send comments by 2017-03-20.
 
In addition, to satisfy RFC 6702 "Promoting Compliance with Intellectual Property Rights (IPR)":
Are you personally aware of any IPR that applies to draft-ietf-intarea-hostname-practice? 
If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules?
(See RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669, and 5378 for more details.)
 
Best,
 
Juan Carlos Zuniga & Wassim Haddad
(Int-Area WG co-chairs)


_______________________________________________
Int-area mailing list
Int-area@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area


--------------B60B7BD9AE62DF60886D6D0C-- From nobody Wed Mar 8 02:31:11 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDA69127071 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 02:31:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=jordi.palet@consulintel.es header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8oDjNFmb287F for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 02:31:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [217.126.185.215]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 505E81270B4 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 02:31:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1488969058; x=1489573858; q=dns/txt; h=DomainKey-Signature: Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID: Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type: Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; bh=FuPdiclUPoIwmUu591FmD/2p7 YfG7USwSMNs+Yasw0M=; b=e8+mLAclLTEz4LUOApnxD1Y+PxX+ocl0AN3K0dszf bv0EXNaSrnVdLhE1Jz599KO67w4gNZ6fWgnuW4YW/ev/6JknychawZZiCtXUsQKr UYf19nYj+vlvNvnrO+hCEIuHR3nzHu8WtHvWMa57ftnW8jyOHnpoZN1yxX20Qydn cI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=r7amRO5sqIWF5W9l53M/RUGmcR/TBSdHdFQ/f2CETIkzRFg3Ml3xIces9Ze5 t+ZDR9Hl42yL0npfImKOXa7ZVJ+FUXtlN9Wrv8g5QxeyJw4HeChchuMEy p1VryJUUkpGB19+/XbV3EcZv2ixLtVtoDTwd8op7IyhyT9Z+X8QWSE=; X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Wed, 08 Mar 2017 11:30:58 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Wed, 08 Mar 2017 11:30:48 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.99] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v11.0.3) with ESMTP id md50005380478.msg for ; Wed, 08 Mar 2017 11:30:47 +0100 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:170308:md50005380478::XZ7jLvXkhtzz6Hkm:00005lqd X-Return-Path: prvs=1240a15ed2=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: int-area@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1f.0.170216 Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 11:30:43 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Message-ID: <00F33522-C145-411C-BB3D-54DDC47AEF5C@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-li-intarea-nat64-prefix-dhcp-option-00.txt References: <148891294771.30275.3903879818574928600.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <148891294771.30275.3903879818574928600.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] New Version Notification for draft-li-intarea-nat64-prefix-dhcp-option-00.txt X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 10:31:07 -0000 Hi, We have submitted a new ID. DHCPv6 Options for Discovery NAT64 Prefixes (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-intarea-nat64-prefix-dhcp-option) This is an update of a previous work (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cui-intarea-464xlat-prefix-dhcp-00), which was considering only the 464XLAT. The new ID is intended for a broader scope, for example, SIIT, Stateful NAT64, EAM-SIIT, etc. I will like to request sometime in the next meeting to present it. Meanwhile, please read the document and provide inputs. Thanks! Regards, Jordi A new version of I-D, draft-li-intarea-nat64-prefix-dhcp-option-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Lishan Li and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-li-intarea-nat64-prefix-dhcp-option Revision: 00 Title: DHCPv6 Options for Discovery NAT64 Prefixes Document date: 2017-03-06 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 11 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-li-intarea-nat64-prefix-dhcp-option-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-intarea-nat64-prefix-dhcp-option/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-intarea-nat64-prefix-dhcp-option-00 Abstract: Several IPv6 transition mechanisms require the usage of stateless or stateful translators (commonly named as NAT64) able to allow IP/ICMP communication between IPv4 and IPv6 networks. Those translators are using either a default well-known prefix, and/ or one or several additional network specific prefixes, which need to be configured into the nodes willing to use the translator. Different translators will likely have different IPv6 prefixes, to attract traffic to the correct translator. Thus, an automatic translator prefix discovery method is necessary. This document defines a DHCPv6-based method to inform DHCPv6 clients the set of IPv6 and IPv4 prefixes it serves. This DHCPv6 option can be used by several transition mechanisms such as SIIT, 464XLAT, EAM. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. 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Thu, 9 Mar 2017 09:14:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-btconnect-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=0YsT49XVrMRzrELvoptZxOAYIBitSzFwm+bteuy9ZVU=; b=Ts6HbczRhs2vLuKi2LH4V2/ckp6r8kCIFTpxQcL4n3GTdCthViODdqb3aNODy7KU1FBg9q9m/4/x5LfQcr56ObU2kcdJZKtHgVA96D4dsnlJdFNlOo4+XlJEjpIsOyQFTCIl3MNqwxnhr/UtEThHRK/fNJo2gkd0qSvmahi6zkE= Authentication-Results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=ietfc@btconnect.com; Received: from pc6 (86.185.203.75) by DB6PR0701MB2998.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.168.84.136) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.947.2; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 17:14:54 +0000 Message-ID: <015c01d298f8$7cf7ed60$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> From: t.petch To: Juan Carlos Zuniga , References: Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 17:13:01 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Originating-IP: [86.185.203.75] X-ClientProxiedBy: DB6P18901CA0016.EURP189.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.169.208.154) To DB6PR0701MB2998.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.168.84.136) X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: c51169ed-5aec-462a-c102-08d4670fce04 X-Microsoft-Antispam: UriScan:; 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And I cannot recall seeing RFC2119 as an Informative Reference before. s.1 / entierly/ entirely/ And I am surprised at the lack of mention of IPv6 which did its bit for the planet by eliminating broadcast. Tom Petch ----- Original Message ----- From: "Juan Carlos Zuniga" To: Sent: Monday, March 06, 2017 9:09 PM > Dear Int-Area WG, > > A review of draft-ietf-intarea-broadcast-consider has been published. Since > there was good support for this document from the beginning and the new > version addresses the pending comments, we believe it is ready for WG Last > Call. > > This email starts an Int-Area WG Last Call on: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-intarea-broadcast-consider-02 > > Please respond to this email to support the document and/or send comments > by 2017-03-20. > > In addition, to satisfy RFC 6702 "Promoting Compliance with Intellectual > Property Rights (IPR)": > Are you personally aware of any IPR that applies to > draft-ietf-intarea-hostname-practice? > If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules? > (See RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669, and 5378 for more details.) > > Best, > > Juan Carlos Zuniga & Wassim Haddad > (Int-Area WG co-chairs) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > From nobody Thu Mar 9 10:42:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C024812979D for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 10:42:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AK0bUfgEuVJC for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 10:42:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from nitro.isi.edu (nitro.isi.edu [128.9.208.207]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4D4A1296EF for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 10:42:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.9.184.163] ([128.9.184.163]) (authenticated bits=0) by nitro.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v29Ig8DR001445 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 9 Mar 2017 10:42:08 -0800 (PST) To: "t.petch" , Juan Carlos Zuniga , int-area@ietf.org References: <015c01d298f8$7cf7ed60$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> From: Joe Touch Message-ID: <149f4a9d-56bb-6cbc-96d0-f66f1be9f8fe@isi.edu> Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 10:42:07 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <015c01d298f8$7cf7ed60$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MailScanner-ID: v29Ig8DR001445 X-ISI-4-69-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] WGLC for draft-ietf-intarea-broadcast-consider X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2017 18:42:34 -0000 On 3/9/2017 9:13 AM, t.petch wrote: > And I am surprised at the lack of mention of IPv6 which did its bit for= > the planet by eliminating broadcast. IPv4 had two kinds of broadcast: - all 1's (like IPv6 all-nodes link local) - subnet-directed, which RFC2644 turned into a subset of all 1's on a link IPv6 has the following kinds of multicast that are effectively broadcast:= - all-nodes link-local (like IPv4 all 1's) - all-nodes site-local (arguably similar to subnet-directed, but un-doing the one-hop restriction of RFC2644) - all the multicast addresses that work over other scopes, limited only by function e.g., NTP can be "broadcast" everywhere And, depending on implementation, IPv6 anycast might use broadcast too. So IPv6 didn't remove any of IPv4's broadcast; it just gave alternatives that may or may not be used - some of which can "broadcast" even wider. Joe From nobody Fri Mar 10 00:35:38 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36D161293D9 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 00:35:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C_Rvg1XJdkpe for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 00:35:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from fly.RZ.HS-Augsburg.DE (fly.RZ.HS-Augsburg.DE [141.82.217.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19B4E126B6D for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 00:35:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fly.RZ.HS-Augsburg.DE (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35F1B1D63B7 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:34:34 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at hs-augsburg.de Received: from fly.RZ.HS-Augsburg.DE ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (fly.rz.hs-augsburg.de [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id ipE5INJBLRi3 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:34:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.1.148] (nightswatch.informatik.hs-augsburg.de [141.82.79.79]) by fly.RZ.HS-Augsburg.DE (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AA98E1D637E for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:34:32 +0100 (CET) To: int-area@ietf.org References: <015c01d298f8$7cf7ed60$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> From: Rolf Winter Organization: Conntac Message-ID: <597ab5f3-a7c2-478b-e76e-88541bd7a687@hs-augsburg.de> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:35:30 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <015c01d298f8$7cf7ed60$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] WGLC for draft-ietf-intarea-broadcast-consider X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 08:35:37 -0000 Tom, see inline. Am 3/9/17 um 6:13 PM schrieb t.petch: > I wonder if the mix of SHOULD and should is intentional. > > And I cannot recall seeing RFC2119 as an Informative Reference before. > Will be fixed. > s.1 > / entierly/ entirely/ thanks, will be fixed, too. > > And I am surprised at the lack of mention of IPv6 which did its bit for > the planet by eliminating broadcast. Multicast in many cases is not any better from the perspective of the size of the receiver group, which is why this traffic is more sensitive to privacy concerns. The document therefore discusses both broadcast and multicast. We will update the document, including a section on broadcast and multicast properties as suggested by Joe earlier. It should be much clearer then. Thanks, Rolf > > Tom Petch > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Juan Carlos Zuniga" > To: > Sent: Monday, March 06, 2017 9:09 PM > > >> Dear Int-Area WG, >> >> A review of draft-ietf-intarea-broadcast-consider has been published. > Since >> there was good support for this document from the beginning and the > new >> version addresses the pending comments, we believe it is ready for WG > Last >> Call. >> >> This email starts an Int-Area WG Last Call on: >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-intarea-broadcast-consider-02 >> >> Please respond to this email to support the document and/or send > comments >> by 2017-03-20. >> >> In addition, to satisfy RFC 6702 "Promoting Compliance with > Intellectual >> Property Rights (IPR)": >> Are you personally aware of any IPR that applies to >> draft-ietf-intarea-hostname-practice? >> If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules? >> (See RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669, and 5378 for more details.) >> >> Best, >> >> Juan Carlos Zuniga & Wassim Haddad >> (Int-Area WG co-chairs) >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -------- > > >> _______________________________________________ >> Int-area mailing list >> Int-area@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area >> > > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > From nobody Fri Mar 10 09:24:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F7151299A7; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:23:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.203 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.203 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tR0ccuNgvQw0; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:23:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CDCC1299A1; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:23:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 81BE8B80E56; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:23:30 -0800 (PST) To: ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org X-PHP-Originating-Script: 1005:ams_util_lib.php From: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Message-Id: <20170310172330.81BE8B80E56@rfc-editor.org> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:23:30 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: Cc: drafts-update-ref@iana.org, int-area@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Subject: [Int-area] RFC 8117 on Current Hostname Practice Considered Harmful X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 17:23:49 -0000 A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries. RFC 8117 Title: Current Hostname Practice Considered Harmful Author: C. Huitema, D. Thaler, R. Winter Status: Informational Stream: IETF Date: March 2017 Mailbox: huitema@huitema.net, dthaler@microsoft.com, rolf.winter@hs-augsburg.de Pages: 12 Characters: 26750 Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None I-D Tag: draft-ietf-intarea-hostname-practice-05.txt URL: https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8117 DOI: 10.17487/RFC8117 Giving a hostname to your computer and publishing it as you roam from one network to another is the Internet's equivalent of walking around with a name tag affixed to your lapel. This current practice can significantly compromise your privacy, and something should change in order to mitigate these privacy threats. There are several possible remedies, such as fixing a variety of protocols or avoiding disclosing a hostname at all. This document describes some of the protocols that reveal hostnames today and sketches another possible remedy, which is to replace static hostnames by frequently changing randomized values. This document is a product of the Internet Area Working Group Working Group of the IETF. INFORMATIONAL: This memo provides information for the Internet community. It does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. Distribution of this memo is unlimited. This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists. To subscribe or unsubscribe, see https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce https://mailman.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-dist For searching the RFC series, see https://www.rfc-editor.org/search For downloading RFCs, see https://www.rfc-editor.org/retrieve/bulk Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the author of the RFC in question, or to rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org. Unless specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for unlimited distribution. The RFC Editor Team Association Management Solutions, LLC From nobody Mon Mar 13 15:46:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietf.org Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BB8A129BF2; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:45:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.47.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148944514627.20409.4214123990965033190@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 15:45:46 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: int-area@ietf.org Subject: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-04.txt X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 22:45:46 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Internet Area Working Group of the IETF. Title : IP Tunnels in the Internet Architecture Authors : Joe Touch Mark Townsley Filename : draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-04.txt Pages : 50 Date : 2017-03-13 Abstract: This document discusses the role of IP tunnels in the Internet architecture. An IP tunnel transits IP datagrams as payloads in non- link layer protocols. This document explains the relationship of IP tunnels to existing protocol layers and the challenges in supporting IP tunneling, based on the equivalence of tunnels to links. The implications of this document are used to derive recommendations that update MTU and fragment issues in RFC 4459. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Mar 13 16:03:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietf.org Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61D67129951; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:03:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.47.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148944619937.20425.6035769630518845992@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:03:19 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: int-area@ietf.org Subject: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-gue-01.txt X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:03:19 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Internet Area Working Group of the IETF. Title : Generic UDP Encapsulation Authors : Tom Herbert Lucy Yong Osama Zia Filename : draft-ietf-intarea-gue-01.txt Pages : 38 Date : 2017-03-13 Abstract: This specification describes Generic UDP Encapsulation (GUE), which is a scheme for using UDP to encapsulate packets of different IP protocols for transport across layer 3 networks. By encapsulating packets in UDP, specialized capabilities in networking hardware for efficient handling of UDP packets can be leveraged. GUE specifies basic encapsulation methods upon which higher level constructs, such as tunnels and overlay networks for network virtualization, can be constructed. GUE is extensible by allowing optional data fields as part of the encapsulation, and is generic in that it can encapsulate packets of various IP protocols. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-intarea-gue/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-intarea-gue-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-intarea-gue-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Mar 13 16:15:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD6A2129BDC for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:15:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RvUt7LzazrYR for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x22f.google.com (mail-qt0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C2B8129BCE for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id n21so44169390qta.1 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:15:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Z/n+KWGfGBkzqoiTmI90kPA1zPffh14ONaD0XwfrwSU=; b=XTrglOY7W7IW055PNOZJFiVlELvE0FP6gZXxDHgrTl8pgFsUiY0MD2bK2cHyNGVfHI UaH+NYjoGuuXXUZS1+t4NITv9Gh+whmU8iF6lDQXL3DwVCwdGbOSbphstFd0B9d+ylHv 5U9sTKket2BfiBEAtF408R9m4R7lZji/Va5iDlGD03QnJpJ01R6cFEFc5IRiBGGuL88M wALoEAevjnZDNxYMy/1WuYgvgrvimvMmeey428zvV3gL3UJgJoEM5DPfZ3E+5BruQQbf noZs5rTwE/qFbH1vysTRUBDPI3dRlQS51kmwXCWetQgo7wmV8inXHS7b2Z6hNivr7ppB TPWQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Z/n+KWGfGBkzqoiTmI90kPA1zPffh14ONaD0XwfrwSU=; b=rAoQ/DmcOA8M97UmJ0GjEU5asidn1Mxf8Qof3skMaEy+FhTB+sLE+YLNNmYErOzDfL qh0y2U9SNiBmPrE8SCUFSgtOw5w29iRNh+lhS52bQ81GzQTTMT+jGt9KAn00gHpRBiWW QQp+yjRjQo+37pv29pmrSnaYNaHHc0JIohZPOx+kGz8PZuih9iyhIF5Z2Dbizs9BIdBd oWrxTeJ6qzfPXpeEr4apN/QR8LHzlIeNgo8RdOPiuXMZ/fYQlk2OXbp432z0I3YYqeOl DW+ogcOgSZ6OToToRKFVIJ14D3prDKYD0pH3fl6Cbk3rUWs3ziYyX/DpGByvwhGYS5Ce TKjQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39mwOXanxJKaGFL+0Wu3aqmm0YH221Z4Vdd77LTYikT5wjmx3gn4eFq0r6tKlp8Kp3Uwbc/H9Puh0UGajA== X-Received: by 10.237.35.83 with SMTP id i19mr35059056qtc.70.1489446912440; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:15:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.84.83 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:15:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Tom Herbert Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:15:12 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "nvo3@ietf.org" , "int-area@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Int-area] [nvo3] Comments on draft-ietf-nvo3-gue-05 X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:15:15 -0000 Hi Murray, Thanks for the detailed reviewed! I've cc'ed int-area WG list also since GUE in a WG item there now. A few replies are inline... On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 1:07 AM, Murray S. Kucherawy w= rote: > Hi all, > > Tom asked me to review this and some related drafts. These are mostly ra= w > notes; hopefully you can make some sense of them. If not, I'm happy to > clarify what any of them mean. > > The document seems to me (with my ART area eyes) to be generally in good > shape. The vast majority of my feedback is editorial stuff, but there ar= e a > few key points I want to highlight: > > 1. In a few places you use MUST, which I assume is meant to indicat= e a > normative requirement. To do that in an RFC, you have to reference RFC21= 19 > and include in your Introduction section some boilerplate that it specifi= es. > Then, depending on how strict the IESG feels like being, all your uses of > MUST/SHOULD/SHOULD NOT/MAY (in lowercase or in all-caps) now need to be > all-caps (or changed to synonyms). In addition, sometimes they would lik= e > you to explain, given a SHOULD or SHOULD NOT, when one might legitimatel= y > deviate from that advice. You might even be asked to explain some of the > MUSTs if they aren=E2=80=99t already obvious. In my raw notes below I've= called out > the lowercase must, may, etc. to which this applies. Will be more specific with normative language. > 2. There are several acronyms that need to be expanded and/or > references provided on first use. > 3. The IANA Considerations section establishes Tom as the reference > point for the port registration, but it uses an old work email address. = If > that=E2=80=99s actually in the registry, this one should update it, prefe= rably to > something that will be useful long-term. Yes, we will update contact information. > 4. Again with the IANA Considerations section, you=E2=80=99re using= Standards > Action as the gate for registering anything. The IESG might ask you to > explain why such strict rules are being used. Specifically, why would on= e > of the lower requirements for registry changes be inadequate? Changed to "RFC required" > 5. Although I think I managed to figure out the rest of the documen= t, > Section 3.6 confused me. Maybe if you explain what=E2=80=99s going on th= ere I can > suggest some alternative text. Rewrote this a bit. > 6. As far as I know, appendices are never normative, so there=E2=80= =99s no > need to say that. > Okay. > -MSK > > Abstract: > - such tunnels =3D> such as tunnels > > Section 1: > - such as virtual =3D> such as a virtual (or =E2=80=9Cthe=E2=80=9D) > > Section 1.1: > - don't end the "C-bit" entry with a period, or do it for all of them > > Section 2: > - expand OAM on first use > - what's going to happen when versions 2 and 3 are exhausted? > Then we need a new protocol :-). In reality, I think it is unlikely this will ever happen in the lifetime of the protocol. Because GUE is arbitrarily extensible, the version number is mostly a fail-safe so that if we found a deficiency in the primary GUE header we could fix this with a new version. Note that version 1 is a convenient means to do header compression for the most common use case and not really a another version, we don't foresee burning any more version numbers for anything like that. > Section 3.1: > - do we need to define or reference a definition for "local tuple"? > - define or reference ECMP > - "not applied" =3D> "not applied," > - using "MUST" needs a reference to RFC2119 somewhere in Section 1 with t= he > usual boilerplate > - "C-bit: When set, indicates" ... > - Hlen: "header_len" is bytes, correct? > - Proto/ctype: "When the C-bit is set, this ..." > - "Flags." =3D> "Flags:" > - "Private data: ... If private data are present, that portion of the > payload immediately follows the extension fields in the header. The leng= th > ..." > > Section 3.2: > - where are control message types enumerated? > > Section 3.2.1: > - "When the C-bit is not set, the ..." > - When the outer IP protocol is IPv4, the proto ..." > - "the proto field can be set" > - "MUST NOT"? > > Section 3.2.2: > - "MUST" > - include a reference to where type 0 is defined > > Section 3.3: > - missing comma > - "may" > - "optional" > > Section 3.3.1: > - "may" > - why "may" a flag indicate the presence of an extension field? should t= hat > be "some flags indicate..."? > - "must" > - "may" again > - don't understand "if two flag bits are paired, a field may possibly be > three different lengths" I added an example. > - "must" > - "... for example ..." is a run-on sentence > - "must not" > - "may" > - "... is set, which indicates ..." > - don't understand how I would know bits 17-19 are paired > > Section 3.4: > - "may" > - starting sentence with "Where" > - "... necessary, for instance it might contain ..." > - "... from an encapsulator, the packet ..." x2 > - "may" > > Section 3.5.1 > - "carry formatted message" =3D> "carry formatted data" > - "may" > - the mdash needs a space before it > > Section 3.6: > - this part is confusing > - what is a =E2=80=9CGUE Transform Field=E2=80=9D and where is it defined= ? > - "... obfuscated, that is the transport..." needs a comma or mdash > - "a trivial destination options" > - Where is "PadN" defined? > - "In this case, 'Next header' MUST refer ..." > > Section 4.2: > - title says IPv6, first line says IPv4 > > Section 5: > - "Server 1" should be "Host 1" to match the diagram > > Section 5.3: > - "may" > - "for instance" > - "packets, that is encapsulating ... " needs an extra comma or an mdash > - "should" > - "GUE then" needs a comma > > Section 5.4: > - "may" > > Section 5.4.1: > - "received" needs a comma > - "in tact" > - comma before "which" between the boxes > > Section 5.4.2: > - comma after "received" > - "must" > > Section 5.5: > - when would one legitimately deviate from the "SHOULD NOT" advice? > - "may" > - "In this case the router..." > > Section 5.6: > - "may" > - comma after "For instance" > - "must not" > - "because" should be "merely because"? > > Section 5.6.1: > - "may" > - comma after "For instance" > - "may" > - "must" x3 > - "should" > > Section 5.6.2: > - "must" > - "may" > > Section 5.7: > - "must" =3D> "needs to be" > - "may" > > Section 5.7.1: > - "must" > - "permissable" =3D> "permissible" > - semicolon or period after "IPv4" > - comma after "IPv6" > - "may" > > Section 5.7.2: > - comma before "it SHOULD" > - comma after "By default" > - comma after "for instance" > > Section 5.7.3: > - comma after "IPv6" > - "must" x2; weird use of "must" before a list of non-MUSTard clauses > - "may" > - "should not" > - comma after "By default" > > Section 5.8: > - "should" > - missing period at end of first paragraph > - "must" > - "should" > > Section 5.9: > - "Note" should be "Note that" > - "may" > - "finer-grained" > - "may" > > Section 5.10: > - "may" > - "should" > - "may" > > Section 5.11.1: > - "finer-grained" > - "contents of clear-text packet" > - final paragraph is a run-on sentence > > Section 5.11.2: > - "should" x4, and when would you not? > - remove "to one", add a comma > - "may" x3 > - "should not", and when would you deviate? > > Section 5.12: > - "must" > - "optional" > - "but" or "however" before "the details" > - last bullet: "If security is used that would..." =3D> "Use of security = would > ..." > > Section 6.1: > - expand and reference all the acronyms in the last bullet > > Section 6.2: > - expand TCAM > > Section 7: > - end first bullet with a period > - "may" > > Section 8.1: > - do you still want to use your google.com address? what if you move fro= m > FB? > - is draft-herbert-gue correct? > > Section 8.2-8.4: > - is Standards Action necessary? why not Specification Required? > > Sections 10.1 and 10.2: > - should be ordered > > Appendix A: > - aren't all appendices informational? > > Appendix A.1: > - "must" > - "should" x3 > - "out-of-order" > > Appendix A.2: > - comma after "encapsulation" > > Appendix A.2.1: > - "may" > - comma after "method" > - comma after "offload" > - comma after "method" > - "cover" should be "covered" > - maybe quote "not", as is done later in the section > - comma after "So", and maybe use "Thus" or "Therefore" > > Appendix A.3: > - comma before "which" > - parenthesize "if tunneling" > - "recommended" > - faulty mdash > - "should not" > > Appendix B.2: > - "should" > > Appendix B.3: > - don't understand the first sentence > > _______________________________________________ > nvo3 mailing list > nvo3@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nvo3 > From nobody Mon Mar 13 16:31:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18C38129C16; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:31:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ut5o_FKTelgh; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nitro.isi.edu (nitro.isi.edu [128.9.208.207]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8600C129C0E; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.9.184.222] ([128.9.184.222]) (authenticated bits=0) by nitro.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v2DNVSgn026427 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:31:28 -0700 (PDT) To: internet-drafts@ietf.org, i-d-announce@ietf.org References: <148944514627.20409.4214123990965033190@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Joe Touch Message-ID: <571aec37-f15a-9d61-e31f-8a4cc00c94cb@isi.edu> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:31:29 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <148944514627.20409.4214123990965033190@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MailScanner-ID: v2DNVSgn026427 X-ISI-4-69-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Cc: int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-04.txt X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:31:49 -0000 Hi, all, This is a long overdue major revision of this document. It tries to incorporate as much of the pending issues as possible. Note: some areas near the end remain incomplete; whether they are completed depends on whether this document remains as informational or is decided as BCP. Joe On 3/13/2017 3:45 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Internet Area Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : IP Tunnels in the Internet Architecture > Authors : Joe Touch > Mark Townsley > Filename : draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-04.txt > Pages : 50 > Date : 2017-03-13 > > Abstract: > This document discusses the role of IP tunnels in the Internet > architecture. An IP tunnel transits IP datagrams as payloads in non- > link layer protocols. This document explains the relationship of IP > tunnels to existing protocol layers and the challenges in supporting > IP tunneling, based on the equivalence of tunnels to links. The > implications of this document are used to derive recommendations that > update MTU and fragment issues in RFC 4459. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels/ > > There's also a htmlized version available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-04 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-04 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area From nobody Tue Mar 14 03:30:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68C521293F2 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 03:30:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=jordi.palet@consulintel.es header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p7bkOeixnuiC for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 03:30:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [217.126.185.215]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F6F0128AB0 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 03:30:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1489487414; x=1490092214; q=dns/txt; h=DomainKey-Signature: Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID: Thread-Topic:Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding: Reply-To; bh=Jj9K8bkcP0cJsNVAIk+Bu4f9qvND0yr6skQd/FXbdMY=; b=VZ1 1KteiAozguSubxLdosiQL1s++M9WxoOEcWfJVoZVs/Y/DKQVRJrJzJcPzQ5Xu8/C dZAlHlJVTWS/xfAc8bFwlHHBOs2qeQ0cYYXI8ohJsFicJl2UUwj6jk7cys1FnOFC TjeemwdlqLU7d9k2vs/WvjkgGdsrxQls7C3KA4oE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=gk2x8pEEfmc0okFrAcaBSQX37Q9JM2BJIRRi67vDtPwwOpo3b0zJZizv7Epl YLnMD7TfKG19y/NchjQCGkhb8cTXBlRmK1KBUgJVwrtidxISIfCiIIX/Y 9LeLFC8jI90UxKpmGmiM9AcGfrTwhGyDbKxp3PgT4j3JWDi9ZikObM=; X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:30:14 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:30:06 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.99] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v11.0.3) with ESMTP id md50005386342.msg for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:30:04 +0100 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:170314:md50005386342::b/iEOFIYrFGvQMNO:00003ZoV X-Return-Path: prvs=12461710fe=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: int-area@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1f.0.170216 Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:30:00 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: draft-li-intarea-nat64-prefix-dhcp-option-00.txt Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: int-area@ietf.org Subject: [Int-area] draft-li-intarea-nat64-prefix-dhcp-option-00.txt X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 10:30:17 -0000 Hi, We have submitted a new ID, in order to standardize new DHCPv6 options to a= llow the discovery of the IPv6/IPv4 prefixes served by stateful/stateless N= AT64 translators (which can be used by SIIT, Stateful NAT64/464XLAT, EAM-SI= IT, etc.). DHCPv6 Options for Discovery NAT64 Prefixes https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-intarea-nat64-prefix-dhcp-option This is an update of a previous work (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cui= -intarea-464xlat-prefix-dhcp-00), which was considering only the 464XLAT ca= se. There have been similar solutions for DS-LITE/lw4o6/MAP, etc. As v6ops can=E2=80=99t do =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D protocols, neither DHCP sta= ndardize new options, it has been submitted to int-area, but we believe tha= t is relevant to both v6ops and DHCP, so please, read the document and prov= ide inputs. Thanks! Regards, Jordi ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(= s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any dis= closure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, = including attached files, is prohibited. From chemag@gmail.com Tue Mar 14 19:01:51 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B30DA1293E1 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 19:01:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.401 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.197, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2OvgCe5LYl3T for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 19:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x234.google.com (mail-it0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C42F1317FF for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 19:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x234.google.com with SMTP id w124so41850282itb.1 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 19:01:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=VDu/Is5I5qKKwQeoKb7uXrb+9j+UN1tHcbb5L4uDpNE=; b=n2xzkoCU6CplaORV3kOMOOinnIOmXf9bZyfRbKinMaD/ZBtiRRY4BFSpxNHogNWKln k2P7wzgnWec1gLK3tGSw7SZqCJTCQThpUaAcpQHVBpT/P21H4l/Ka5PMFwezzSaMzwiM 8huqJUqRKMhOeS3HprMDbbFgyvN88/+Fm/gb42CGdrXnwEp3FwyE59uAc1v6Uj4ROBue WDl0SnTQj1HHJ/EDm8eoaNlKfdEP/OmsOHCpH26ZMH1narfANri8ASB9LpqPgL3dRaD0 2R1nRnSTblEMb4UdHNfRlCgUsqpN8s8mRJJOIwI30VS47QAE9DbcO4l7/fFCbV8asaP+ o2kw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject :to; bh=VDu/Is5I5qKKwQeoKb7uXrb+9j+UN1tHcbb5L4uDpNE=; b=Kpz6ar5KpJzIu1iLtGfUQxU4dG7KYP6mqmFc3nWTZd2xbsfa2XcUj1IrBy5yeo2Ze2 OuBBvYLehVqdkZLYL39BViygf7KywwejiDA0Sd6bhCOw+1T9QUsw5DPqpesSXfpJguvm hNn25gMfxIpu627J1lgYh23nv4XyAL5fVBPqWs/Tf62734+md8mEdN8huBx6buGJmZlC MdNduso+PEtR6upDh81uLRO8xxnqTiK8GKuvifr73dbDZVklkPmtu9AH1jW0+chK5OrJ StSTVclPqvVPbCGGWOiYAk/WbWHs8A6+ok6ULNyzVrR7AkqVMPfRWFTmj2fiK19Dji9l +beg== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2Rtfxwywk8k1PyChecOGynYfAnuyMGmOjyvtnpZMmYjZ3NRg82puUk5/Lvg8PTOmBk/NNY81frd/Nurg== X-Received: by 10.36.50.206 with SMTP id j197mr3105032ita.118.1489543278819; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 19:01:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: chemag@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.5.140 with HTTP; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 19:01:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Chema Gonzalez Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 19:01:18 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Q3F9x00i6rO4yvbiEQJpXDY2RiU Message-ID: To: int-area@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] [nvo3] Comments on draft-ietf-nvo3-gue-05 X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 02:03:25 -0000 2 minor comments: 1. There is a small typo. Where it says: B.1. Priveleged ports It should say: B.1. Privileged ports 2. Not sure whether this is right or not: Sections 3.3.2 and 5.4.1 suggest the use of 94 as the next proto header value ("(proto = 94,IPIP)"). Both linux/include/uapi/linux/in.h and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IP_protocol_numbers suggest the right ipip value is 4. The wiki link suggests 94 was used by "KA9Q NOS compatible IP over IP tunneling", while the linux kernel points at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nikander-esp-beet-mode-05. Thanks, -Chema From nobody Wed Mar 15 10:10:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE745131720 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 10:10:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sVABqlNSLwK1 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 10:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usplmg21.ericsson.net (usplmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16698131729 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 10:10:33 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: c6180641-c53ff70000000a06-7e-58c92f2e1a41 Received: from EUSAAHC004.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.84]) by (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 01.A1.02566.E2F29C85; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 13:10:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from [155.53.28.52] (147.117.188.8) by smtp-am.internal.ericsson.com (147.117.188.86) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.319.2; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 13:10:28 -0400 From: Wassim Haddad Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3E6E236C-1751-4959-94E8-6EF7A5A16E76" Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 10:10:42 -0700 Message-ID: To: "int-area@ietf.org" MIME-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprDLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPiK6R/skIg9ezWC1uzLrJ4sDosWTJ T6YAxigum5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujC/zbAoOcFcsfPadrYHxHFcXIyeHhICJxJumByxdjFwcQgLr GSU2H21lAUkICaxllNjZKQ5iswkYSHxdfpYVxGYWSJLoftbHBmILC8hJHPr9GsxmEVCVuHDh LJjNK2AvsWT6E2aIej2JR7d7wWwRAW2J/U8OsEDU6EnMuvKeCeIIWYknJxdB7VWXmHJrAssE Rt5ZSNbNQtICEZeX2P52DjOErSOxYPcnNkxxbYkzBx4zLWBkW8XIUVpckJObbmS4iREYZsck 2Bx3MO7t9TzEKMDBqMTDu0HuZIQQa2JZcWXuIUYJDmYlEd5NxUAh3pTEyqrUovz4otKc1OJD jNIcLErivNdD7ocLCaQnlqRmp6YWpBbBZJk4OKUaGKMDhFxXetppuX/UOyvUcm+yhJoiI/Mi 8W/NL996y/x/4yS/RvNYz7KLHnHrmU8ucixVul0Uqr7y8mfLP73rufprdTy+hanFyCQsMtlt u+37hV/B+zoOH8hduW660Ya9NRYe/48fCat71MF4RFBt7fz5j+NjhOUWt6XHsC9YHFy8ecmf WRwOJ5VYijMSDbWYi4oTActWeD4vAgAA Archived-At: Subject: [Int-area] RFC 8117 in the news! X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 17:10:47 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3E6E236C-1751-4959-94E8-6EF7A5A16E76 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/03/14/naming_computers_endangers_privacy/ Regards, Wassim H. --Apple-Mail=_3E6E236C-1751-4959-94E8-6EF7A5A16E76 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/03/14/naming_computers_endangers_privacy/


Regards,

Wassim H.




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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi INTAREA Colleagues: Based on offline and online feedback received from list (5GANGIP) discussio= ns, we have posted an update to the MAMS draft clarifying the following asp= ects: - Flexibility in instantiation of MAMS network functions - Number, L= ocation independence - Scalability to include and support new network technologies like 5= G - Co-existence and complementarity with current IETF protocols like = MPTCP - Clarification of differences with ANDSF - Clarification on applicability to (ETSI) MEC Please review the updated version at - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ka= nugovi-intarea-mams-protocol-03. We would also like to take this opportunity to introduce the companion draf= t on MAMS control plane procedures to support discovery, capability exchange, configuration of user plane protocols, and dynamic ada= ptation of network paths - the draft is available for your review at https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zhu-intarea-mams-control-protocol-0= 0.txt. The draft introduces the procedures, and the plan is to create a separate draft that specifies the exact encoding of the control= plane messages and parameters. Will share that shortly as well. Please review the drafts and share your feedback. BR Hannu/Satish Satish Kanugovi (satish.k@nokia.com), DMTS, :Cor= e Networks Evolution Group: Core, Cloud & Software Innovation Planning @ Mobile Networks CTO Call/Text: +91 98861 24678 (cell), https://www.linkedin.com/in/satishkanugo= vi From: Int-area [mailto:int-area-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of K, Satish (N= okia - IN) Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 11:11 AM To: int-area@ietf.org Cc: Flinck, Hannu (Nokia - FI/Espoo) ; Zh= u, Jing Z ; Vasudevan, Vasu (Nokia - US) ; Florin Baboescu ; Sprecher, N= urit (Nokia - IL/Hod HaSharon) Subject: [Int-area] Introducing MAMS and call for comments Hi INTAREA Colleagues: I want to take this opportunity to introduce the IETF draft - https://tools= .ietf.org/html/draft-kanugovi-intarea-mams-protocol-01 that describes the motivation, requirements and solution principles of the = MAMS framework. MAMS (Multi-Access Management Signaling) is a framework that allows clients= and networks in a multi-network scenario to negotiate the combination of uplink and downlin= k paths taking into account client's application needs and network conditions. It allows dynami= c adaptation of the network paths guided by network intelligence supplemented by information co= nveyed by the clients. MAMS can co-exist with and complement IETF protocols like TCP, UDP, GRE, MP= TCP by providing a mechanism to negotiate and configure these protocols based on deployment ne= eds (e.g. IPsec where network level security is needed), application needs (e.g. packet/flow swit= ching or aggregation using protocols like MPTCP), network conditions (e.g Switching or Aggregation mod= es based on differential link delay), transport type, etc. and including client/network capabilities. Please review the draft and share your feedback and perspectives that we ca= n consider as we develop this further. BR Satish Satish Kanugovi (satish.k@nokia.com), DMTS, :Cor= e Networks Evolution Group: Core, Cloud & Software Innovation Planning @ Mobile Networks CTO Call/Text: +91 98861 24678 (cell), https://www.linkedin.com/in/satishkanugo= vi --_000_DB5PR07MB0855A0841BD3DFE56E0B65FF86260DB5PR07MB0855eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi INTAREA Colleagues:

 

Based on offline and online feedback received from l= ist (5GANGIP) discussions, we have posted an update to the MAMS draft clari= fying the following aspects:

-     &= nbsp;  Flexibility in instantiation of MAMS network functi= ons – Number, Location independence

-     &= nbsp;  Scalability to include and support new network tech= nologies like 5G

-     &= nbsp;  Co-existence and complementarity with current IETF = protocols like MPTCP

-     &= nbsp;  Clarification of differences with ANDSF<= /p>

-     &= nbsp;  Clarification on applicability to (ETSI) MEC

Please review the updated version at - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kanugovi-intarea-mams-protocol-03.

 

We would also like to take this opportunity to intro= duce the companion draft on MAMS control plane procedures to support discov= ery,

capability exchange, configuration of user plane pro= tocols, and dynamic adaptation of network paths – the draft is availa= ble for your

review at https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-zhu-intarea-mams-control-protocol-00.txt.= The draft introduces the procedures, and the plan is

to create a separate draft that specifies the exact = encoding of the control plane messages and parameters. Will share that shor= tly as well.

 

Please review the drafts and share your feedback.

 

BR
Hannu/Satish

 

Satish Kanugovi (satish.k@nokia.com), DMTS, :Core Networks Evolution Group:

Core, Cloud & Software Inn= ovation Planning  @ Mobile Networks CTO

Call/Text: +91 98861 24678= (cell), https://www.linkedin.com/in/satishkanugovi<= /span>

 

From: Int-area [mailto:int-area-bounces@ietf.= org] On Behalf Of K, Satish (Nokia - IN)
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 11:11 AM
To: int-area@ietf.org
Cc: Flinck, Hannu (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <hannu.flinck@nokia-bell-lab= s.com>; Zhu, Jing Z <jing.z.zhu@intel.com>; Vasudevan, Vasu (Nokia= - US) <vasu.vasudevan@nokia.com>; Florin Baboescu <florin.baboesc= u@broadcom.com>; Sprecher, Nurit (Nokia - IL/Hod HaSharon) <nurit.sprecher@nokia.com>
Subject: [Int-area] Introducing MAMS and call for comments

 

Hi INTAREA Colleagues:

 

I want to take this opportunity to introduce the IET= F draft - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kanugovi-intarea-mams-protocol-01

that describes the motivation, requirements and solu= tion principles of the MAMS framework.

 

MAMS (Multi-Access Management Signaling) is a framew= ork that allows clients and networks in

a multi-network scenario to negotiate the combinatio= n of uplink and downlink paths taking into

account client’s application needs and network= conditions. It allows dynamic adaptation of the

network paths guided by network intelligence supplem= ented by information conveyed by the clients.

 

MAMS can co-exist with and complement IETF protocols= like TCP, UDP, GRE, MPTCP by providing a

mechanism to negotiate and configure these protocols= based on deployment needs (e.g. IPsec where

network level security is needed), application needs= (e.g. packet/flow switching or aggregation using

protocols like MPTCP), network conditions (e.g Switc= hing or Aggregation modes based on differential link

delay), transport type, etc. and including client/ne= twork capabilities.

 

Please review the draft and share your feedback and = perspectives that we can consider as we develop this further.

 

BR
Satish

 

Satish Kanugovi (satish.k@nokia.com), DMTS, :Core Networks Evolution Group:

Core, Cloud & Software Inn= ovation Planning  @ Mobile Networks CTO

Call/Text: +91 98861 24678= (cell), https://www.linkedin= .com/in/satishkanugovi

 

--_000_DB5PR07MB0855A0841BD3DFE56E0B65FF86260DB5PR07MB0855eurp_-- From nobody Mon Mar 20 12:13:18 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C61831316AF for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 12:13:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7fIY3e0FwuSD for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 12:13:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cluecentral.net (mail.cluecentral.net [195.16.84.32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 105081316A5 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 12:13:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cluecentral.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05159400219 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 12:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cluecentral.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cluecentral.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id IRNBhUGBhYkg for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 12:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cluecentral.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4346940021C for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 12:16:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.cluecentral.net Received: from mail.cluecentral.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cluecentral.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id b_8L-teK13Ks for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 12:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cluecentral.net (mail.cluecentral.net [195.16.84.32]) by mail.cluecentral.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1642C400219 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 12:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 12:16:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Sabri Berisha To: int-area@ietf.org Message-ID: <1986249538.8510.1490037369964.JavaMail.zimbra@cluecentral.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_8509_606393501.1490037369962" X-Originating-IP: [195.16.84.16] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.6.0_GA_1153 (ZimbraWebClient - GC56 (Win)/8.6.0_GA_1153) Thread-Topic: Proposal to update RFC 2890 - Key and Sequence Number Extensions to GRE Thread-Index: wjpxPvvJs0I85WBHuvUhMPiuyF+aqA== Archived-At: Subject: [Int-area] Proposal to update RFC 2890 - Key and Sequence Number Extensions to GRE X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 19:13:18 -0000 ------=_Part_8509_606393501.1490037369962 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello IETF workgroup members, Apologies if this is sent to the wrong workgroup. Recently, I was asked to investigate an issue involving packets being transmitted out of sequence by a flagship routing product of a major vendor of internet backbone routers. Long story short, we observed that the chipset involved would indeed process the frames out of sequence if the following circumstances were met: - Small frame size; - GRE tunnel with packets with and without the sequence number bit set interleaved; - Bursty traffic circumstances (a small frame not carrying the sequence number bit set, arriving within 11 microseconds of a frame with a sequence number set); In this case, the key field was populated consistently at all times with the same key identifier. The forwarding chip in this case, took the sequence bit into consideration when determining whether or not it was part of a flow. The vendor addressed the issue by not looking deeper into the frame if the packet is not TCP or UDP. Obviously, I found it interesting that a GRE implementation would set the sequence number on some frames in the same flow, but not on others. However, I found that RFC 2890 explicitly allows this in section 2.2: "Note that packets without the sequence bit set can be interleaved with packets with the sequence bit set." I'm too junior to know the exact reason of why this was allowed, but I'd like to propose an update to RFC 2890, with (apart from all the standard text) the following: 3. Consistent use of the Key field Once the encapsulator elects to insert the Key field for a designated traffic flow, the encapsulator MUST insert the same Key identifier for all frames transmitted as part of that traffic flow. 4. Consistent use of the Sequence Number field Once the encapsulator elects to insert a Sequence Number for a designated traffic flow, the encapsulator MUST insert a Sequence Number for all frames transmitted as part of that traffic flow. The encapsulator MUST increment the Sequence Number by 1 for each transmitted frame. The encapsulator MUST NOT interleave frames without the Sequence Number set with frames with the Sequence Number set. If ratified as a standard by this working group, it would mandate consistent use of the sequence number fields for the entire duration of a flow. The implementer would make a choice at the initial transmission of the first frame whether or not to use sequence numbers. I have a draft ready, written using the MS Word template, but I thought I'd not poison the inboxes of all subscribers of this mailing list. Thanks, Sabri ------=_Part_8509_606393501.1490037369962 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello IETF workgroup members,
<= br data-mce-bogus=3D"1">
Apologies if this is sent to the wrong w= orkgroup. 

Recently, I w= as asked to investigate an issue involving packets being transmitted out of= sequence by a flagship routing product of a major vendor of internet backb= one routers. Long story short, we observed that the chipset involved would = indeed process the frames out of sequence if the following circumstances we= re met:

- Small frame size;
- GRE tunnel with packets with and without the sequence number bit= set interleaved;
- Bursty traffic circumstances (a small frame n= ot carrying the sequence number bit set, arriving within 11 microseconds of= a frame with a sequence number set);

In this case, the key field was populated consistently at all time= s with the same key identifier. The forwarding chip in this case, took the = sequence bit into consideration when determining whether or not it was part= of a flow. The vendor addressed the issue by not looking deeper into the f= rame if the packet is not TCP or UDP.

Obviously, I found it interesting that a GRE implementation would = set the sequence number on some frames in the same flow, but not on others.= However, I found that RFC 2890 explicitly allows this in section 2.2:
"Note that packets without the sequence bit set can be interleaved with =
packets with the sequence bit set."
I'm too junior to know = the exact reason of why this was allowed, but I'd like to propose an update= to RFC 2890, with (apart from all the standard text) the following:
<= pre>3. Consistent use of the Key field
Once the encapsulator elects to i= nsert the Key field for a designated traffic flow, the encapsulator MUST in= sert the same Key identifier for all frames transmitted as part of that tra= ffic flow.
4. Consistent use of the Sequence Number field
=

Once the encapsulator elects to insert a Sequence Number for a d=
esignated traffic flow, the encapsulator MUST insert a Sequence Number for =
all frames transmitted as part of that traffic flow.
The encapsulator MU=
ST increment the Sequence Number by 1 for each transmitted frame. The encap=
sulator MUST NOT interleave frames without the Sequence Number set with fra=
mes with the Sequence Number set.

If ratified = as a standard by this working group, it would mandate consistent use of the= sequence number fields for the entire duration of a flow. The implementer = would make a choice at the initial transmission of the first frame whether = or not to use sequence numbers. I have a draft ready, written using the MS = Word template, but I thought I'd not poison the inboxes of all subscribers = of this mailing list. 

Thanks,

Sabri
------=_Part_8509_606393501.1490037369962-- From nobody Tue Mar 21 16:01:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBA70129A58 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2017 16:00:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CGjzAr4QZtT6 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2017 16:00:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 012821294A5 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2017 16:00:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.9.184.179] ([128.9.184.179]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v2LN0HeB022351 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 21 Mar 2017 16:00:17 -0700 (PDT) To: Chema Gonzalez , int-area@ietf.org References: From: Joe Touch Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 16:00:17 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------27DFA74042600024B5F3DE51" X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] [nvo3] Comments on draft-ietf-nvo3-gue-05 X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 23:01:00 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------27DFA74042600024B5F3DE51 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/14/2017 7:01 PM, Chema Gonzalez wrote: > 2 minor comments: > > 1. There is a small typo. Where it says: > > B.1. Priveleged ports > > It should say: > > B.1. Privileged ports > > 2. Not sure whether this is right or not: Sections 3.3.2 and 5.4.1 > suggest the use of 94 as the next proto header value ("(proto =3D > 94,IPIP)"). Both linux/include/uapi/linux/in.h and > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IP_protocol_numbers suggest the > right ipip value is 4.=20 Wikipedia isn't authoritative; IANA is: https://www.iana.org/assignments/protocol-numbers/protocol-numbers.xhtml > The wiki link suggests 94 was used by "KA9Q NOS > compatible IP over IP tunneling", while the linux kernel points at > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nikander-esp-beet-mode-05. This is a good reason to check with IANA. You'll find there: 94 IPIP IP-within-IP Encapsulation Protocol =09 [John_Ioannidis ] See RFC1853, which explains why John has that assignment. Joe --------------27DFA74042600024B5F3DE51 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit



On 3/14/2017 7:01 PM, Chema Gonzalez wrote:
2 minor comments:

1. There is a small typo. Where it says:

B.1. Priveleged ports

It should say:

B.1. Privileged ports

2. Not sure whether this is right or not: Sections 3.3.2 and 5.4.1
suggest the use of 94 as the next proto header value ("(proto =
94,IPIP)"). Both linux/include/uapi/linux/in.h and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IP_protocol_numbers suggest the
right ipip value is 4.
Wikipedia isn't authoritative; IANA is:
https://www.iana.org/assignments/protocol-numbers/protocol-numbers.xhtml

The wiki link suggests 94 was used by "KA9Q NOS
compatible IP over IP tunneling", while the linux kernel points at
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nikander-esp-beet-mode-05.

This is a good reason to check with IANA. You'll find there:
94 IPIP IP-within-IP Encapsulation Protocol
[John_Ioannidis]

See RFC1853, which explains why John has that assignment.

Joe
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boundary="_000_DB6PR08MB267961B6B492CB9FC98DD011893C0DB6PR08MB2679eurp_" --_000_DB6PR08MB267961B6B492CB9FC98DD011893C0DB6PR08MB2679eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear IntArea WG, Please note that we have received the attached liaison letter from the IEEE= 802.1 WG with respect to "IP over intentionally partially partitioned link= s" draft-nordmark-intarea-ippl-05. If you have any comments, please send them to the list. We will also allocate some time for to discuss about this during our meetin= g in Chicago. Best, Juan-Carlos & Wassim (IntArea WG co-chairs) From: Glenn Parsons [mailto:glenn.parsons@ericsson.com] Sent: March 22, 2017 4:26 AM To: statements@ietf.org; Juan Carlos Zuniga ;= Suresh Krishnan ; Wassim Haddad Cc: Paul Nikolich (paul.nikolich@att.net) ; John Messenger ; Janos Farkas <= Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>; pat.thaler@broadcom.com Subject: Liaison from IEEE 802.1 WG to IETF IntArea WG Please find attached a liaison from the IEEE 802.1 WG. I will be available to present this during the IntArea WG meeting. This i= s in regards to your agenda item #4. Cheers, Glenn. -- Glenn Parsons - Chair, IEEE 802.1 glenn.parsons@ericsson.com +1-613-963-8141 --_000_DB6PR08MB267961B6B492CB9FC98DD011893C0DB6PR08MB2679eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear IntA= rea WG,

&nbs= p;

Please note that we have received the attached liais= on letter from the IEEE 802.1 WG with respect to “IP over intentional= ly partially partitioned links” draft-nordmark-intarea-ippl-05.<= /o:p>

 

If you have any comments, please send them to the li= st.

 

We will also allocate some time for to discuss about= this during our meeting in Chicago.

 

Best,

 

Juan-Carlos & Wassim

(IntArea WG co-chairs)

 

&nbs= p;

From: Glenn Parsons [mailto:glenn.parsons@ericsson.com]
Sent: March 22, 2017 4:26 AM
To: statements@ietf.org; Juan Carlos Zuniga <juancarlos.zuniga@si= gfox.com>; Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com>; Wassim = Haddad <wassim.haddad@ericsson.com>
Cc: Paul Nikolich <paul.nikolich@att.net> (paul.nikolich@att.n= et) <paul.nikolich@att.net>; John Messenger <jmessenger@advaoptica= l.com>; Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>; pat.thaler@broad= com.com
Subject: Liaison from IEEE 802.1 WG to IETF IntArea WG

 

Please find attached a liaison = from the IEEE 802.1 WG.

 

I will be available to present = this during the  IntArea WG meeting.  This is in regards to your = agenda item #4.

 

Cheers,

Glenn.

 

     &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;     

--

Glenn Parsons - Chair, IEEE 802= .1

glenn.parsons@ericsson.com

+1-613-963-8141<= /span>

 

 

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22 Mar 2017 18:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d.mail.sonic.net (d.mail.sonic.net [64.142.111.50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B5F11293FD; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 18:10:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.254.146] (72-172-185-194.bayarea.net [72.172.185.194]) (authenticated bits=0) by d.mail.sonic.net (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTPSA id v2N1AAI0000996 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 22 Mar 2017 18:10:11 -0700 To: Juan Carlos Zuniga , "int-area@ietf.org" , "intarea-chairs@ietf.org" References: From: Erik Nordmark Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 18:10:10 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sonic-CAuth: UmFuZG9tSVbWtK9JS3ZzFBZqK1pmNoQg14b2kkXQ8de4mEvIVCq/QxLpC807fANSQZ4IBQqL9GB4I3iZGxz0fmHwFmxrrAF03g8uWONXFqs= X-Sonic-ID: C;aAJOdmUP5xG9v7Sd+VpWsw== M;EgOtdmUP5xG9v7Sd+VpWsw== X-Sonic-Spam-Details: 0.0/5.0 by cerberusd Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] [www.ietf.org/rt #163372] Liaison from IEEE 802.1 WG to IETF IntArea WG X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 01:10:26 -0000 On 03/22/2017 02:30 PM, Juan Carlos Zuniga wrote: > Dear IntArea WG, > > > > Please note that we have received the attached liaison letter from the > IEEE 802.1 WG with respect to “IP over intentionally partially > partitioned links” draft-nordmark-intarea-ippl-05. I don't see the document listed on http://www.ieee802.org/Communications.shtml#Comm_1703 Will it be added there so we can refer to it? Some more detailed comments below: > 1. The tone of the draft should be, "how a router can take advantage of the > Asymmetric (Private) VLAN feature offered by 802.1Q bridges." > 2. Modifying the section in question to describe how it works, without any > conformance language on bridge behavior but explaining 802.1Q standard > bridge configuration instead. > 3. Make a normative reference to 802.1Q. My bad; I thought I already had it as a reference. However, I'm not sure it can be normative since both annex B and annex F are marked as informational in 802.1Q-1998. It wasn't clear to me that there is sufficient material in the normative parts of 802.1Q-1998 to describe the required behaviors for promiscuous, community, and isolated ports. If the 802.1 group is asserting that all of those behaviors are (optional) parts of the 802.1Q-1998 standard it would be helpful to know that. In addition, if possible, also to have more specific references to normative sections in 802.1Q which describe this behavior. We'd still need some explanatory text in the draft to map between the 802.1Q terminology and the "promiscuous, community, isolated" terminology that is used in industry. Before seeing the test I can't tell whether such text would need to have RFc2119 terms to describe the mapping. However, I don't think that would be a constraints on bridge implementations but instead statements of the form "for the purposes if running IP over 802.1Q we assume that promisc/community/isolated ports are configured as follows using the 802.1Q asymetric VLAN standard... But that is predicated on the all the necessary "private VLAN" behaviors being part of the IEEE 802.1Q-1998 standard. So I'd be greatful for clarifications on that point before I start editing the draft. Thanks, Erik > > > If you have any comments, please send them to the list. > > > > We will also allocate some time for to discuss about this during our > meeting in Chicago. > > > > Best, > > > > Juan-Carlos & Wassim > > (IntArea WG co-chairs) > > > > > > *From:*Glenn Parsons [mailto:glenn.parsons@ericsson.com] > *Sent:* March 22, 2017 4:26 AM > *To:* statements@ietf.org; Juan Carlos Zuniga > ; Suresh Krishnan > ; Wassim Haddad > *Cc:* Paul Nikolich (paul.nikolich@att.net) > ; John Messenger ; > Janos Farkas ; pat.thaler@broadcom.com > *Subject:* Liaison from IEEE 802.1 WG to IETF IntArea WG > > > > Please find attached a liaison from the IEEE 802.1 WG. > > > > I will be available to present this during the IntArea WG meeting. > This is in regards to your agenda item #4. > > > > Cheers, > > Glenn. > > > > > > -- > > Glenn Parsons - Chair, IEEE 802.1 > > glenn.parsons@ericsson.com > > +1-613-963-8141 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > From nobody Wed Mar 22 18:42:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01B661293EC; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 18:42:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.697 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.697 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.796, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=sigfoxgroup.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s0H41L7ATOuC; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 18:42:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR02-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr20133.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.2.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1ED5612422F; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 18:42:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sigfoxgroup.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-sigfox-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=6oeWy+AgMz0lUp29iaIMqzCni3qnoU1AIukEexLlovM=; b=XU6qVt4AMliBp7LLcDD31G8ezoRw69Q3FqhXUJ+Dhy5NpjLD1nRx3m9XObcno0602EVXyxB1xOJYNYe8v7O5E5hQMqCyfvVR5/jjFcD/JbcLzPmXTCuaVnvPJZdKBeZedujYNJgezowtBBUhbMHH6N0bYspmQ4sF24jHelVcdQA= Received: from DB6PR08MB2679.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com (10.175.235.12) by DB6PR08MB2677.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com (10.175.235.10) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.977.11; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 01:41:57 +0000 Received: from DB6PR08MB2679.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com ([10.175.235.12]) by DB6PR08MB2679.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com ([10.175.235.12]) with mapi id 15.01.0991.013; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 01:41:57 +0000 From: Juan Carlos Zuniga To: Erik Nordmark , "int-area@ietf.org" , "intarea-chairs@ietf.org" CC: Glenn Parsons , "Paul Nikolich (paul.nikolich@att.net)" , John Messenger , Janos Farkas , "pat.thaler@broadcom.com" Thread-Topic: [Int-area] [www.ietf.org/rt #163372] Liaison from IEEE 802.1 WG to IETF IntArea WG Thread-Index: AdKjUpVX/iCGTVAVSQaIWmgkBVlbQgAH6IoAAADv+YA= Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 01:41:57 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-CA, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: acm.org; 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I'm CC'ing some IEEE 802 members that are not in the IntArea mailing list.= =20 I hope they can provide some answers to your questions below. Best, Juan Carlos=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Erik Nordmark [mailto:nordmark@acm.org] > Sent: March 22, 2017 8:10 PM > To: Juan Carlos Zuniga ; int-area@ietf.org; > intarea-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Int-area] [www.ietf.org/rt #163372] Liaison from IEEE 802.1= WG > to IETF IntArea WG >=20 > On 03/22/2017 02:30 PM, Juan Carlos Zuniga wrote: > > Dear IntArea WG, > > > > > > > > Please note that we have received the attached liaison letter from the > > IEEE 802.1 WG with respect to "IP over intentionally partially > > partitioned links" draft-nordmark-intarea-ippl-05. >=20 > I don't see the document listed on > http://www.ieee802.org/Communications.shtml#Comm_1703 >=20 > Will it be added there so we can refer to it? >=20 >=20 > Some more detailed comments below: >=20 > > 1. The tone of the draft should be, "how a router can take advantage > > of the Asymmetric (Private) VLAN feature offered by 802.1Q bridges." >=20 > > 2. Modifying the section in question to describe how it works, without > > any conformance language on bridge behavior but explaining 802.1Q > > standard bridge configuration instead. >=20 > > 3. Make a normative reference to 802.1Q. >=20 > My bad; I thought I already had it as a reference. > However, I'm not sure it can be normative since both annex B and annex F > are marked as informational in 802.1Q-1998. It wasn't clear to me that th= ere > is sufficient material in the normative parts of 802.1Q-1998 to describe = the > required behaviors for promiscuous, community, and isolated ports. >=20 > If the 802.1 group is asserting that all of those behaviors are > (optional) parts of the 802.1Q-1998 standard it would be helpful to know > that. >=20 > In addition, if possible, also to have more specific references to normat= ive > sections in 802.1Q which describe this behavior. >=20 > We'd still need some explanatory text in the draft to map between the > 802.1Q terminology and the "promiscuous, community, isolated" > terminology that is used in industry. Before seeing the test I can't tell > whether such text would need to have RFc2119 terms to describe the > mapping. However, I don't think that would be a constraints on bridge > implementations but instead statements of the form "for the purposes if > running IP over 802.1Q we assume that promisc/community/isolated ports > are configured as follows using the 802.1Q asymetric VLAN standard... >=20 > But that is predicated on the all the necessary "private VLAN" behaviors > being part of the IEEE 802.1Q-1998 standard. So I'd be greatful for > clarifications on that point before I start editing the draft. >=20 >=20 > Thanks, > Erik >=20 > > > > > > If you have any comments, please send them to the list. > > > > > > > > We will also allocate some time for to discuss about this during our > > meeting in Chicago. > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > Juan-Carlos & Wassim > > > > (IntArea WG co-chairs) > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:*Glenn Parsons [mailto:glenn.parsons@ericsson.com] > > *Sent:* March 22, 2017 4:26 AM > > *To:* statements@ietf.org; Juan Carlos Zuniga > > ; Suresh Krishnan > > ; Wassim Haddad > > > > *Cc:* Paul Nikolich (paul.nikolich@att.net) > > ; John Messenger ; > > Janos Farkas ; pat.thaler@broadcom.com > > *Subject:* Liaison from IEEE 802.1 WG to IETF IntArea WG > > > > > > > > Please find attached a liaison from the IEEE 802.1 WG. > > > > > > > > I will be available to present this during the IntArea WG meeting. > > This is in regards to your agenda item #4. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Glenn. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Glenn Parsons - Chair, IEEE 802.1 > > > > glenn.parsons@ericsson.com > > > > +1-613-963-8141 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Int-area mailing list > > Int-area@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > > From nobody Wed Mar 22 18:48:33 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51F1D128AB0; 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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 01:48:21 +0000 From: Glenn Parsons To: Juan Carlos Zuniga , Erik Nordmark , "int-area@ietf.org" , "intarea-chairs@ietf.org" CC: "Paul Nikolich (paul.nikolich@att.net)" , John Messenger , "Janos Farkas" , "pat.thaler@broadcom.com" Thread-Topic: [Int-area] [www.ietf.org/rt #163372] Liaison from IEEE 802.1 WG to IETF IntArea WG Thread-Index: AdKjUpVX/iCGTVAVSQaIWmgkBVlbQgAH6IoAAADv+YAAAFcYEA== Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 01:48:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: sigfox.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;sigfox.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [116.6.64.189] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; VI1PR07MB1293; 7:Cce5SP29Lj5GMAUfhUp4E28WduChLiNI/+b+dnR1DKNs05lDkeQCdu2DJH18QKRNv5Y5ZPsoepfbSrnsXAm1Hr+PP4ua6qdHcqgqpLMpZLW7Lke9WILqqqyaGOXBX/iFvhu85g3VpQJ2VOMbrYaKzRU81kYzVo5Iv6Kv9J9l4tXi+N/0qBMU/cQoqVtIFwX+JVzR7I9d4klnEg/4q1z4jhr+UnZEr31A5MKzH732SqPhs4xk30nFuLWp+HIgfDoqA/I5UeKrykrggJCbIpZxpYz3XUjLz/mpGhMzw/9f/SUT5Kn48kaqfwsOk23POT9ZMpLy4ulSckpq7jeJpiCpWA== x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:SKI; 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SRVR:VI1PR07MB1293; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:VI1PR07MB1293; x-forefront-prvs: 0255DF69B9 spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Mar 2017 01:48:20.9592 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR07MB1293 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA02Se0hTYRjG+3bOmUdz8aUz35xCjfpDK9N1cZSERsHQAiFQCUWXnnQ6p+yY ZIQYmpHlLfE2UycuJfGyspjaxUtpKWmlZmqFSop2Iye20kXldiz67/e+z/O93/O9fDThcIty oRWqZEatkivFfDuyLNSwf1ec+3Co1+QiTzqmGSel5VMB0rmMdkqa80aDpHlFbTxpzeQYT1p4 9xvlZyMbHgmUDWh/UrLe2g5Cppkc4Mt0umWebHZBEcQ/aecbzSgVKYx696FIu9hl4zKV9Nj9 bJW5jkpH+q3ZiKYB74Uv0+ezkR3tgJsQmH43E1zxFIGxvp+0FCTOIeBmrobHKUU8aC0zoX+2 mcyeVcWW5mMveDfyim8RhLgNwejKE+swAn9FkFEzRlhcjlgOhqoLVhbiU3Ct4jPF8WEwDw4i SyoSbwdzur+lLcCRMGEaWAs1haDYsGL12+JwyKzPt85BeBN872+wpiCwM0zMVFkZMAbd/ecE x07w4f0vyjII4TwEXU25iBO2gKmzxcYiAL5KQEFRIeKKOgpeN1bYcK7jYMrqILilhcGsHrh2 PFwqWl67LQxG86YJ7qyGByPVbSTnd4UfvV7c611Wd3QZcewK828fUPnIXfNfcI53gvbeIp/j HVBb/YnQWLexEfrKZkgtIuuRE8uwbEKMROLJqBVRLJuo8lQxybfR6kfqumM+0Iq65vy7EaaR 2F6QVDAU6kDJU9jUhG4ENCEWChKerbYE0fLUc4w6MUJ9Rsmw3UhEk2Jngd/DF6EOOEaezMQz TBKj/qvyaFuXdBQi6gwXlnw8ep0eLvGpzW0ODrB3Xe9LGDvlwy3OUVEHTzteDNrj1rvPbT4w pGdc56MNUAdlNazbZpzK6xO5KV+2e5wYUW2o1EdriiNkjo656ZX2V8pFR1Y89WNpuhuVJkOm tFwytbRQSnu3l6YtNRrpIYH/o83BcZLCBttjzKKYZGPl3h6EmpX/AZLBi71EAwAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] [www.ietf.org/rt #163372] Liaison from IEEE 802.1 WG to IETF IntArea WG X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 01:48:31 -0000 Folks, The liaison is from the IEEE 802.1 WG so will not be on the noted IEEE 802 = liaison page. I presume it will eventually show up on the IETF liaison site Cheers, Glenn. -----Original Message----- From: Juan Carlos Zuniga [mailto:juancarlos.zuniga@sigfox.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 9:42 PM To: Erik Nordmark ; int-area@ietf.org; intarea-chairs@iet= f.org Cc: Glenn Parsons ; Paul Nikolich (paul.nikolich@att.net) ; John Messenger = ; Janos Farkas ; pat= .thaler@broadcom.com Subject: RE: [Int-area] [www.ietf.org/rt #163372] Liaison from IEEE 802.1 W= G to IETF IntArea WG Thanks for the quick response Erik. I'm CC'ing some IEEE 802 members that are not in the IntArea mailing list.= =20 I hope they can provide some answers to your questions below. Best, Juan Carlos=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Erik Nordmark [mailto:nordmark@acm.org] > Sent: March 22, 2017 8:10 PM > To: Juan Carlos Zuniga ;=20 > int-area@ietf.org; intarea-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Int-area] [www.ietf.org/rt #163372] Liaison from IEEE=20 > 802.1 WG to IETF IntArea WG >=20 > On 03/22/2017 02:30 PM, Juan Carlos Zuniga wrote: > > Dear IntArea WG, > > > > > > > > Please note that we have received the attached liaison letter from=20 > > the IEEE 802.1 WG with respect to "IP over intentionally partially=20 > > partitioned links" draft-nordmark-intarea-ippl-05. >=20 > I don't see the document listed on > http://www.ieee802.org/Communications.shtml#Comm_1703 >=20 > Will it be added there so we can refer to it? >=20 >=20 > Some more detailed comments below: >=20 > > 1. The tone of the draft should be, "how a router can take advantage=20 > > of the Asymmetric (Private) VLAN feature offered by 802.1Q bridges." >=20 > > 2. Modifying the section in question to describe how it works,=20 > > without any conformance language on bridge behavior but explaining=20 > > 802.1Q standard bridge configuration instead. >=20 > > 3. Make a normative reference to 802.1Q. >=20 > My bad; I thought I already had it as a reference. > However, I'm not sure it can be normative since both annex B and annex=20 > F are marked as informational in 802.1Q-1998. It wasn't clear to me=20 > that there is sufficient material in the normative parts of=20 > 802.1Q-1998 to describe the required behaviors for promiscuous, community= , and isolated ports. >=20 > If the 802.1 group is asserting that all of those behaviors are > (optional) parts of the 802.1Q-1998 standard it would be helpful to=20 > know that. >=20 > In addition, if possible, also to have more specific references to=20 > normative sections in 802.1Q which describe this behavior. >=20 > We'd still need some explanatory text in the draft to map between the=20 > 802.1Q terminology and the "promiscuous, community, isolated" > terminology that is used in industry. Before seeing the test I can't=20 > tell whether such text would need to have RFc2119 terms to describe=20 > the mapping. However, I don't think that would be a constraints on=20 > bridge implementations but instead statements of the form "for the=20 > purposes if running IP over 802.1Q we assume that=20 > promisc/community/isolated ports are configured as follows using the 802.= 1Q asymetric VLAN standard... >=20 > But that is predicated on the all the necessary "private VLAN"=20 > behaviors being part of the IEEE 802.1Q-1998 standard. So I'd be=20 > greatful for clarifications on that point before I start editing the draf= t. >=20 >=20 > Thanks, > Erik >=20 > > > > > > If you have any comments, please send them to the list. > > > > > > > > We will also allocate some time for to discuss about this during our=20 > > meeting in Chicago. > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > Juan-Carlos & Wassim > > > > (IntArea WG co-chairs) > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:*Glenn Parsons [mailto:glenn.parsons@ericsson.com] > > *Sent:* March 22, 2017 4:26 AM > > *To:* statements@ietf.org; Juan Carlos Zuniga=20 > > ; Suresh Krishnan=20 > > ; Wassim Haddad=20 > > > > *Cc:* Paul Nikolich (paul.nikolich@att.net)=20 > > ; John Messenger=20 > > ; Janos Farkas=20 > > ; pat.thaler@broadcom.com > > *Subject:* Liaison from IEEE 802.1 WG to IETF IntArea WG > > > > > > > > Please find attached a liaison from the IEEE 802.1 WG. > > > > > > > > I will be available to present this during the IntArea WG meeting. > > This is in regards to your agenda item #4. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Glenn. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Glenn Parsons - Chair, IEEE 802.1 > > > > glenn.parsons@ericsson.com > > > > +1-613-963-8141 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Int-area mailing list > > Int-area@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > > From nobody Thu Mar 23 10:29:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A93341294B7 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 10:29:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=broadcom.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mNwkT7BXIobF for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 10:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x22e.google.com (mail-qt0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 560FC1252BA for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 10:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id i34so181787760qtc.0 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 10:29:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6cmDbVoSgj4z9Kao5pgJ6wh9H0HUEqYn8KU86vLKVW0=; b=dfkzTo9nn04dAnzEPJaQOiKllVElJzXFiIO7LoKg/d7bJePdAVok8wmb1xQo++38Xw Fo0FZ0WVpomqz0/U1OcUA6ALQd8wdZC5aivOKmpOxyuTcltfIEIvq9Ru2tTDuO+m5rVF l2EdlsudfD3Nuq7lhPmvxxn8sY5pM4gUEsSuc= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6cmDbVoSgj4z9Kao5pgJ6wh9H0HUEqYn8KU86vLKVW0=; b=hmFZ8q+N62EF//ed/Nr5jVdaseHKYatZrDoPGW+JB1av9buVZ3IUWz+Kj1k0iwWtKU V7d3FtdPzICQsSRGi5aOk5xy7fUkoTZcUTlmkbVAIsaU16PsnnHhSAQoBBROBtjri3QE DDkmB5dOttC23YJYk9R0KC/xHpUGP4r1uF0liKjdhedoIa7AjlblybpjHo+vT8OfLfVx TXTHzOQFgNEroxQjbMp7MDbNQnlUXTugIdkng5tDng52eorCSyfAOR8LAhU1I66B12BA TNUzbbRjPULAYfJB/s2b8A0a+2YWtN2wr0ci/EfnzQk+4+xJgLqVc8EK3YnpsbX/aS/b lgLA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3e8t0NSdekzaZbPk458ZvwbGIsrplYljB8U/rlHrH3Ot19HOMg0ZFd3DY9TLEAlqvc66vwFCV40UBsyG48 X-Received: by 10.237.59.91 with SMTP id q27mr3716715qte.193.1490290142387; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 10:29:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.30.117 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 10:29:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Pat Thaler Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 10:29:01 -0700 Message-ID: To: Erik Nordmark Cc: Juan Carlos Zuniga , "int-area@ietf.org" , "intarea-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0e773e8cbf8d054b693686 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] [www.ietf.org/rt #163372] Liaison from IEEE 802.1 WG to IETF IntArea WG X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 17:29:06 -0000 --94eb2c0e773e8cbf8d054b693686 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Erik, The informative annexes explain how to use 802.1Q bridges to implement Pfivate VLANs. The capabilities that allow that are covered in the normative body of IEEE Std 802.1Q. The liaison includes suggested text for the ID describing details of configuring 802.1Q bridges to accomplish that including references to normative parts of 802.1Q. Regads, Pat On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:10 PM, Erik Nordmark wrote: > On 03/22/2017 02:30 PM, Juan Carlos Zuniga wrote: > >> Dear IntArea WG, >> >> >> >> Please note that we have received the attached liaison letter from the >> IEEE 802.1 WG with respect to =E2=80=9CIP over intentionally partially >> partitioned links=E2=80=9D draft-nordmark-intarea-ippl-05. >> > > I don't see the document listed on > http://www.ieee802.org/Communications.shtml#Comm_1703 > > Will it be added there so we can refer to it? > > > Some more detailed comments below: > > 1. The tone of the draft should be, "how a router can take advantage of t= he >> Asymmetric (Private) VLAN feature offered by 802.1Q bridges." >> > > 2. Modifying the section in question to describe how it works, without an= y >> conformance language on bridge behavior but explaining 802.1Q standard >> bridge configuration instead. >> > > 3. Make a normative reference to 802.1Q. >> > > My bad; I thought I already had it as a reference. > However, I'm not sure it can be normative since both annex B and annex F > are marked as informational in 802.1Q-1998. It wasn't clear to me that > there is sufficient material in the normative parts of 802.1Q-1998 to > describe the required behaviors for promiscuous, community, and isolated > ports. > > If the 802.1 group is asserting that all of those behaviors are (optional= ) > parts of the 802.1Q-1998 standard it would be helpful to know that. > > In addition, if possible, also to have more specific references to > normative sections in 802.1Q which describe this behavior. > > We'd still need some explanatory text in the draft to map between the > 802.1Q terminology and the "promiscuous, community, isolated" terminology > that is used in industry. Before seeing the test I can't tell whether suc= h > text would need to have RFc2119 terms to describe the mapping. However, I > don't think that would be a constraints on bridge implementations but > instead statements of the form "for the purposes if running IP over 802.1= Q > we assume that promisc/community/isolated ports are configured as follows > using the 802.1Q asymetric VLAN standard... > > But that is predicated on the all the necessary "private VLAN" behaviors > being part of the IEEE 802.1Q-1998 standard. So I'd be greatful for > clarifications on that point before I start editing the draft. > > > Thanks, > Erik > > >> >> If you have any comments, please send them to the list. >> >> >> >> We will also allocate some time for to discuss about this during our >> meeting in Chicago. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> Juan-Carlos & Wassim >> >> (IntArea WG co-chairs) >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:*Glenn Parsons [mailto:glenn.parsons@ericsson.com] >> *Sent:* March 22, 2017 4:26 AM >> *To:* statements@ietf.org; Juan Carlos Zuniga >> ; Suresh Krishnan >> ; Wassim Haddad > > >> *Cc:* Paul Nikolich (paul.nikolich@att.net) >> ; John Messenger ; >> Janos Farkas ; pat.thaler@broadcom.com >> *Subject:* Liaison from IEEE 802.1 WG to IETF IntArea WG >> >> >> >> Please find attached a liaison from the IEEE 802.1 WG. >> >> >> >> I will be available to present this during the IntArea WG meeting. >> This is in regards to your agenda item #4. >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Glenn. >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Glenn Parsons - Chair, IEEE 802.1 >> >> glenn.parsons@ericsson.com >> >> +1-613-963-8141 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Int-area mailing list >> Int-area@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > --94eb2c0e773e8cbf8d054b693686 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Erik,

The informative annexes explain h= ow to use 802.1Q bridges to implement Pfivate VLANs. The capabilities that = allow that are covered in the normative body of IEEE Std 802.1Q.=C2=A0

The liaison includes suggested text for the ID describ= ing details of configuring 802.1Q bridges to accomplish that including refe= rences to normative parts of 802.1Q.


Regads,
Pat



On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:1= 0 PM, Erik Nordmark <nordmark@acm.org> wrote:
On 03/22/2017 02:30 PM, Juan Carlos Zun= iga wrote:
Dear IntArea WG,



Please note that we have received the attached liaison letter from the
IEEE 802.1 WG with respect to =E2=80=9CIP over intentionally partially
partitioned links=E2=80=9D draft-nordmark-intarea-ippl-05.

 I don't see the document listed on
http://www.ieee802.org/Communications.shtm= l#Comm_1703

Will it be added there so we can refer to it?


Some more detailed comments below:

1. The tone of the draft should be, "how a router can take advantage o= f the
Asymmetric (Private) VLAN feature offered by 802.1Q bridges."

2. Modifying the section in question to describe how it works, without any<= br> conformance language on bridge behavior but explaining 802.1Q standard
bridge configuration instead.

3. Make a normative reference to 802.1Q.

My bad; I thought I already had it as a reference.
However, I'm not sure it can be normative since both annex B and annex = F are marked as informational in 802.1Q-1998. It wasn't clear to me tha= t there is sufficient material in the normative parts of 802.1Q-1998 to des= cribe the required behaviors for promiscuous, community, and isolated ports= .

If the 802.1 group is asserting that all of those behaviors are (optional) = parts of the 802.1Q-1998 standard it would be helpful to know that.

In addition, if possible, also to have more specific references to normativ= e sections in 802.1Q which describe this behavior.

We'd still need some explanatory text in the draft to map between the 8= 02.1Q terminology and the "promiscuous, community, isolated" term= inology that is used in industry. Before seeing the test I can't tell w= hether such text would need to have RFc2119 terms to describe the mapping. = However, I don't think that would be a constraints on bridge implementa= tions but instead statements of the form "for the purposes if running = IP over 802.1Q we assume that promisc/community/isolated ports are configur= ed as follows using the 802.1Q asymetric VLAN standard...

But that is predicated on the all the necessary "private VLAN" be= haviors being part of the IEEE 802.1Q-1998 standard. So I'd be greatful= for clarifications on that point before I start editing the draft.


Thanks,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Erik



If you have any comments, please send them to the list.



We will also allocate some time for to discuss about this during our
meeting in Chicago.



Best,



Juan-Carlos & Wassim

(IntArea WG co-chairs)





 *From:*Glenn Parsons [mailto:glenn.parsons@ericsson.com]
*Sent:* March 22, 2017 4:26 AM
*To:* statements@i= etf.org; Juan Carlos Zuniga
<juanc= arlos.zuniga@sigfox.com>; Suresh Krishnan
<sures= h.krishnan@ericsson.com>; Wassim Haddad <wassim.haddad@ericsson.com= >
 *Cc:* Paul Nikolich <paul.nikolich@att.net> (paul.nikolich@att.net)
<paul.nikolic= h@att.net>; John Messenger <jmessenger@advaoptical.com>;
Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>; pat.thaler@broadcom.com
 *Subject:* Liaison from IEEE 802.1 WG to IETF IntArea WG


Please find attached a liaison from the IEEE 802.1 WG.



I will be available to present this during the=C2=A0 IntArea WG meeting. This is in regards to your agenda item #4.



Cheers,

Glenn.





--

Glenn Parsons - Chair, IEEE 802.1

glen= n.parsons@ericsson.com <mailto:glenn.parsons@ericsson.com>

= +1-613-963-8141







_______________________________________________
Int-area mailing list
Int-area@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area


_______________________________________________
Int-area mailing list
Int-area@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area

--94eb2c0e773e8cbf8d054b693686-- From nobody Thu Mar 23 11:40:52 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55025129BDA; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 11:40:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VLveOU75L4F6; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 11:40:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c.mail.sonic.net (c.mail.sonic.net [64.142.111.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EAEFB129407; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 11:40:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.254.146] (72-172-185-194.bayarea.net [72.172.185.194]) (authenticated bits=0) by c.mail.sonic.net (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTPSA id v2NIegF5016681 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 23 Mar 2017 11:40:43 -0700 To: Pat Thaler , Erik Nordmark References: Cc: Juan Carlos Zuniga , "int-area@ietf.org" , "intarea-chairs@ietf.org" From: Erik Nordmark Message-ID: <1bd9b9fa-3c2c-e476-bdc9-c5add4497c7e@sonic.net> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 11:40:41 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sonic-CAuth: UmFuZG9tSVaBU785qfvmVQOTaYIhWOQH9q/yizxfs6r7pdM9I1rbwEaRX/Mb84seBcahf6XCCX4+NyBw2H+sQWzwj9zYxjmn52bE8VRUvpc= X-Sonic-ID: C;oM4/OPgP5xGmL9RbNyX4rQ== M;mJzTOPgP5xGmL9RbNyX4rQ== X-Sonic-Spam-Details: 0.0/5.0 by cerberusd Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] [www.ietf.org/rt #163372] Liaison from IEEE 802.1 WG to IETF IntArea WG X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 18:40:50 -0000 On 03/23/2017 10:29 AM, Pat Thaler wrote: > Erik, > > The informative annexes explain how to use 802.1Q bridges to implement > Pfivate VLANs. The capabilities that allow that are covered in the > normative body of IEEE Std 802.1Q. > > The liaison includes suggested text for the ID describing details of > configuring 802.1Q bridges to accomplish that including references to > normative parts of 802.1Q. Pat, That's great. I initially missed those details in the liaison. Would it be OK to take that text from the liaison and add it as information to the draft? And if so, should I acknowledge anybody in particular or just the IEEE 802.1 committee? Thanks, Erik > > > > On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:10 PM, Erik Nordmark > wrote: > > On 03/22/2017 02:30 PM, Juan Carlos Zuniga wrote: > > Dear IntArea WG, > > > > Please note that we have received the attached liaison letter > from the > IEEE 802.1 WG with respect to “IP over intentionally partially > partitioned links†draft-nordmark-intarea-ippl-05. > > > I don't see the document listed on > http://www.ieee802.org/Communications.shtml#Comm_1703 > > > Will it be added there so we can refer to it? > > > Some more detailed comments below: > > 1. The tone of the draft should be, "how a router can take > advantage of the > Asymmetric (Private) VLAN feature offered by 802.1Q bridges." > > > 2. Modifying the section in question to describe how it works, > without any > conformance language on bridge behavior but explaining 802.1Q > standard > bridge configuration instead. > > > 3. Make a normative reference to 802.1Q. > > > My bad; I thought I already had it as a reference. > However, I'm not sure it can be normative since both annex B and > annex F are marked as informational in 802.1Q-1998. It wasn't clear > to me that there is sufficient material in the normative parts of > 802.1Q-1998 to describe the required behaviors for promiscuous, > community, and isolated ports. > > If the 802.1 group is asserting that all of those behaviors are > (optional) parts of the 802.1Q-1998 standard it would be helpful to > know that. > > In addition, if possible, also to have more specific references to > normative sections in 802.1Q which describe this behavior. > > We'd still need some explanatory text in the draft to map between > the 802.1Q terminology and the "promiscuous, community, isolated" > terminology that is used in industry. Before seeing the test I can't > tell whether such text would need to have RFc2119 terms to describe > the mapping. However, I don't think that would be a constraints on > bridge implementations but instead statements of the form "for the > purposes if running IP over 802.1Q we assume that > promisc/community/isolated ports are configured as follows using the > 802.1Q asymetric VLAN standard... > > But that is predicated on the all the necessary "private VLAN" > behaviors being part of the IEEE 802.1Q-1998 standard. So I'd be > greatful for clarifications on that point before I start editing the > draft. > > > Thanks, > Erik > > > > If you have any comments, please send them to the list. > > > > We will also allocate some time for to discuss about this during our > meeting in Chicago. > > > > Best, > > > > Juan-Carlos & Wassim > > (IntArea WG co-chairs) > > > > > > *From:*Glenn Parsons [mailto:glenn.parsons@ericsson.com > ] > *Sent:* March 22, 2017 4:26 AM > *To:* statements@ietf.org ; Juan > Carlos Zuniga > >; Suresh Krishnan > >; Wassim Haddad > > > *Cc:* Paul Nikolich > (paul.nikolich@att.net > ) > >; John > Messenger >; > Janos Farkas >; pat.thaler@broadcom.com > > *Subject:* Liaison from IEEE 802.1 WG to IETF IntArea WG > > > > Please find attached a liaison from the IEEE 802.1 WG. > > > > I will be available to present this during the IntArea WG meeting. > This is in regards to your agenda item #4. > > > > Cheers, > > Glenn. > > > > > > -- > > Glenn Parsons - Chair, IEEE 802.1 > > glenn.parsons@ericsson.com > > > > +1-613-963-8141 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > > > > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > > > From nobody Thu Mar 23 11:46:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E6911315DA for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 11:46:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=broadcom.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uRLhi1D9czKH for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 11:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x231.google.com (mail-qt0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA7FB131610 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 11:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x231.google.com with SMTP id i34so183702051qtc.0 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 11:46:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=jxZAroJYS2Mu/eN8Hv9FpvsZ2Qwf2JQ06YKCP8eTR8c=; b=M33VW6YO++Ug8MMFCp9IOS6WSd/JZJPELG4heJxcpryvqMKv0pEngqhTSnCmZuRqpd nYxwnNxpr7kipK1U4h5I4WUsA1CtgaOUTK8ODHSWPlWg8AxcuxUNkVlfB56JhCRH6ItZ op+9VUyVXn8NFFg9EH9DA91lLW66PNGTFFXIg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jxZAroJYS2Mu/eN8Hv9FpvsZ2Qwf2JQ06YKCP8eTR8c=; b=G6Va2h3wp5yM/J9M9GVsa2dMHvtv1DTcy3E4/O+xQq8TiRWze2fqXl0lZBZzHa/zQS X4/kX82agpfP5tntWZYfdexWdj3WOJpzkqs/m4iRRjlD1MekDJpcUbpgGCkBL9VuKXjD 25CAil87LN5ZSPMNsB9gtoIjovaX95TMC+Im4exIL1U7roO7u2YMtZMvjx7tvS+fJNbC ysiCh7nHMYme3HmPAXOyxCLDrxJe8mzGwMwO+ByA6DFNt98+FEHBgYuM/YSqZ79p3mvx Q8UV2Tg2HTbvs2T1zACpRdv8MYxFDC6hSLSeXJVrPOb7CDR+aEhgiijyd+6DtoNrVFwY HUfA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2XD31gOlfkwmHzKGcB1uylnZ5+80s1TtdFqn7tuNhOZv5wQTIpzcEE/0gYfOQgRgDuJ5+qEnK3IDabA4Ku X-Received: by 10.200.49.162 with SMTP id h31mr4335054qte.50.1490294768706; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 11:46:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.30.117 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 11:46:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1bd9b9fa-3c2c-e476-bdc9-c5add4497c7e@sonic.net> References: <1bd9b9fa-3c2c-e476-bdc9-c5add4497c7e@sonic.net> From: Pat Thaler Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 11:46:08 -0700 Message-ID: To: Erik Nordmark Cc: Erik Nordmark , Juan Carlos Zuniga , "int-area@ietf.org" , "intarea-chairs@ietf.org" , "Glenn Parsons " , =?UTF-8?Q?J=C3=A1nos_Farkas?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c01ca04cea14054b6a4a66 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] [www.ietf.org/rt #163372] Liaison from IEEE 802.1 WG to IETF IntArea WG X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 18:46:13 -0000 --001a11c01ca04cea14054b6a4a66 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'll leave it to Glenn and Janos to answer those questions. I believe that the text was written with the intent that it could be incorporated into the ID. On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 11:40 AM, Erik Nordmark wrote: > On 03/23/2017 10:29 AM, Pat Thaler wrote: > >> Erik, >> >> The informative annexes explain how to use 802.1Q bridges to implement >> Pfivate VLANs. The capabilities that allow that are covered in the >> normative body of IEEE Std 802.1Q. >> >> The liaison includes suggested text for the ID describing details of >> configuring 802.1Q bridges to accomplish that including references to >> normative parts of 802.1Q. >> > > Pat, > > That's great. I initially missed those details in the liaison. > > Would it be OK to take that text from the liaison and add it as > information to the draft? And if so, should I acknowledge anybody in > particular or just the IEEE 802.1 committee? > > Thanks, > Erik > > >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:10 PM, Erik Nordmark > > wrote: >> >> On 03/22/2017 02:30 PM, Juan Carlos Zuniga wrote: >> >> Dear IntArea WG, >> >> >> >> Please note that we have received the attached liaison letter >> from the >> IEEE 802.1 WG with respect to =E2=80=9CIP over intentionally par= tially >> partitioned links=E2=80=9D draft-nordmark-intarea-ippl-05. >> >> >> I don't see the document listed on >> http://www.ieee802.org/Communications.shtml#Comm_1703 >> >> >> Will it be added there so we can refer to it? >> >> >> Some more detailed comments below: >> >> 1. The tone of the draft should be, "how a router can take >> advantage of the >> Asymmetric (Private) VLAN feature offered by 802.1Q bridges." >> >> >> 2. Modifying the section in question to describe how it works, >> without any >> conformance language on bridge behavior but explaining 802.1Q >> standard >> bridge configuration instead. >> >> >> 3. Make a normative reference to 802.1Q. >> >> >> My bad; I thought I already had it as a reference. >> However, I'm not sure it can be normative since both annex B and >> annex F are marked as informational in 802.1Q-1998. It wasn't clear >> to me that there is sufficient material in the normative parts of >> 802.1Q-1998 to describe the required behaviors for promiscuous, >> community, and isolated ports. >> >> If the 802.1 group is asserting that all of those behaviors are >> (optional) parts of the 802.1Q-1998 standard it would be helpful to >> know that. >> >> In addition, if possible, also to have more specific references to >> normative sections in 802.1Q which describe this behavior. >> >> We'd still need some explanatory text in the draft to map between >> the 802.1Q terminology and the "promiscuous, community, isolated" >> terminology that is used in industry. Before seeing the test I can't >> tell whether such text would need to have RFc2119 terms to describe >> the mapping. However, I don't think that would be a constraints on >> bridge implementations but instead statements of the form "for the >> purposes if running IP over 802.1Q we assume that >> promisc/community/isolated ports are configured as follows using the >> 802.1Q asymetric VLAN standard... >> >> But that is predicated on the all the necessary "private VLAN" >> behaviors being part of the IEEE 802.1Q-1998 standard. So I'd be >> greatful for clarifications on that point before I start editing the >> draft. >> >> >> Thanks, >> Erik >> >> >> >> If you have any comments, please send them to the list. >> >> >> >> We will also allocate some time for to discuss about this during >> our >> meeting in Chicago. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> >> >> Juan-Carlos & Wassim >> >> (IntArea WG co-chairs) >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:*Glenn Parsons [mailto:glenn.parsons@ericsson.com >> ] >> *Sent:* March 22, 2017 4:26 AM >> *To:* statements@ietf.org ; Juan >> Carlos Zuniga >> > >; Suresh Krishnan >> > >; Wassim Haddad >> > >> *Cc:* Paul Nikolich > > (paul.nikolich@att.net >> ) >> >; John >> Messenger > >; >> Janos Farkas > >; pat.thaler@broadcom.com >> >> *Subject:* Liaison from IEEE 802.1 WG to IETF IntArea WG >> >> >> >> Please find attached a liaison from the IEEE 802.1 WG. >> >> >> >> I will be available to present this during the IntArea WG >> meeting. >> This is in regards to your agenda item #4. >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Glenn. >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Glenn Parsons - Chair, IEEE 802.1 >> >> glenn.parsons@ericsson.com >> > > >> >> +1-613-963-8141 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Int-area mailing list >> Int-area@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Int-area mailing list >> Int-area@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area >> >> >> >> > --001a11c01ca04cea14054b6a4a66 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'll leave it to Glenn and Janos to answer those quest= ions. I believe that the text was written with the intent that it could be = incorporated into the ID.

On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 11:40 AM, Erik Nordmark <nordmark@s= onic.net> wrote:
On 03/23/2017 10:29 AM, Pat Thaler wrote:
Erik,

The informative annexes explain how to use 802.1Q bridges to implement
Pfivate VLANs. The capabilities that allow that are covered in the
normative body of IEEE Std 802.1Q.

The liaison includes suggested text for the ID describing details of
configuring 802.1Q bridges to accomplish that including references to
normative parts of 802.1Q.

 Pat,

That's great. I initially missed those details in the liaison.

Would it be OK to take that text from the liaison and add it as information= to the draft? And if so, should I acknowledge anybody in particular or jus= t the IEEE 802.1 committee?

Thanks,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Erik




On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:10 PM, Erik Nordmark <nordmark@acm.org
<mailto:nordmark@a= cm.org>> wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 03/22/2017 02:30 PM, Juan Carlos Zuniga wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Dear IntArea WG,



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Please note that we have received the attached = liaison letter
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 from the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IEEE 802.1 WG with respect to =E2=80=9CIP over = intentionally partially
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 partitioned links=E2=80=9D draft-nordmark-intar= ea-ippl-05.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I don't see the document listed on
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.ieee802.org/Communications.shtml#Comm_1703
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <http://www.ieee802.org/Commun= ications.shtml#Comm_1703>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Will it be added there so we can refer to it?


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Some more detailed comments below:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1. The tone of the draft should be, "how a= router can take
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 advantage of the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Asymmetric (Private) VLAN feature offered by 80= 2.1Q bridges."


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2. Modifying the section in question to describ= e how it works,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 without any
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 conformance language on bridge behavior but exp= laining 802.1Q
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 standard
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 bridge configuration instead.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 3. Make a normative reference to 802.1Q.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 My bad; I thought I already had it as a reference.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 However, I'm not sure it can be normative since both anne= x B and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 annex F are marked as informational in 802.1Q-1998. It wasn&#= 39;t clear
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to me that there is sufficient material in the normative part= s of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 802.1Q-1998 to describe the required behaviors for promiscuou= s,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 community, and isolated ports.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If the 802.1 group is asserting that all of those behaviors a= re
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (optional) parts of the 802.1Q-1998 standard it would be help= ful to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 know that.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In addition, if possible, also to have more specific referenc= es to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 normative sections in 802.1Q which describe this behavior.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 We'd still need some explanatory text in the draft to map= between
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the 802.1Q terminology and the "promiscuous, community, = isolated"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 terminology that is used in industry. Before seeing the test = I can't
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 tell whether such text would need to have RFc2119 terms to de= scribe
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the mapping. However, I don't think that would be a const= raints on
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 bridge implementations but instead statements of the form &qu= ot;for the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 purposes if running IP over 802.1Q we assume that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 promisc/community/isolated ports are configured as follows us= ing the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 802.1Q asymetric VLAN standard...

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 But that is predicated on the all the necessary "private= VLAN"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 behaviors being part of the IEEE 802.1Q-1998 standard. So I&#= 39;d be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 greatful for clarifications on that point before I start edit= ing the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Erik



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 If you have any comments, please send them to t= he list.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 We will also allocate some time for to discuss = about this during our
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 meeting in Chicago.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Best,



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juan-Carlos & Wassim

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (IntArea WG co-chairs)





=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 *From:*Glenn Parsons [mailto:glenn.parsons@ericsson.c= om
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <mailto:glenn.parsons@ericsson.com>]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Sent:* March 22, 2017 4:26 AM
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 *To:* statements@ietf.org <mailto:statements@ietf.org>; Juan
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Carlos Zuniga
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <juancarlos.zuniga@sigfox.com
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <mailto:juancarlos.zuniga@sigfox.com>>= ; Suresh Krishnan
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <mailto:suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com>>= ; Wassim Haddad
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <wassim.haddad@ericsson.com <mailto:wassim.haddad@ericsson<= wbr>.com>>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Cc:* Paul Nikolich <paul.nikolich@att.net
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <mailto:paul.nikolich@att.net>> (paul.nikolich@att.net =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <mailto:paul.nikolich@att.net>)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <paul.nikolich@att.net <mailto:paul.nikolich@att.net>>= ; John
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Messenger <jmessenger@advaoptical.com
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <mailto:jmessenger@advaoptical.com>>; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Janos Farkas <Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <mailto:Janos.Farkas@ericsson.com>>; pat.thaler@broadco= m.com
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <mailto:pat.thaler@broadcom.com>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 *Subject:* Liaison from IEEE 802.1 WG to IETF I= ntArea WG



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Please find attached a liaison from the IEEE 80= 2.1 WG.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I will be available to present this during the= =C2=A0 IntArea WG meeting.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This is in regards to your agenda item #4.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cheers,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Glenn.





=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Glenn Parsons - Chair, IEEE 802.1

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 glenn.parsons@ericsson.com <mailto:glenn.parsons@ericsson= .com>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <mailto:glenn.parsons@ericsson.com
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <mailto:glenn.parsons@ericsson.com>>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1-613-963-8141 <tel:%2B1-613-963-8141&g= t;







=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 __________________________________________= _____
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Int-area mailing list
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Int-area@ietf.org <mailto:Int-area@ietf.org>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailm= an/listinfo/int-area
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <https://www.ietf.org/m= ailman/listinfo/int-area>


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 _______________________________________________
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Int-area mailing list
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Int-ar= ea@ietf.org <mailto:Int-area@ietf.org>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin= fo/int-area
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/li= stinfo/int-area>




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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Presenters, Please send your slides by Monday at 15:00 hrs (CDT). We will be meeting at: 13:00-14:30 Tuesday Afternoon session I, Room Zurich D The agenda is available here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/98/agenda/intarea Best, Juan Carlos & Wassim --_000_DB6PR08MB26795E6CE78F46C9CC4736D8893E0DB6PR08MB2679eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Presenters,

 

Please send your slides by Monday at 15:00 hrs (CDT)= .

 

We will be meeting at:

 

13:00-14:30 &n= bsp;  Tuesday Afternoon session I, Room Zurich D

 

The agenda is available here:

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/98/agenda/intarea

 

Best,

 

Juan Carlos & Wassim

 

--_000_DB6PR08MB26795E6CE78F46C9CC4736D8893E0DB6PR08MB2679eurp_-- From nobody Mon Mar 27 08:34:43 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietf.org Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2E95128C81; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 08:34:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: int-area@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.48.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149062888196.30638.8369941985115982808@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 08:34:41 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-05.txt X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 15:34:42 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Internet Area Working Group of the IETF. Title : IP Tunnels in the Internet Architecture Authors : Joe Touch Mark Townsley Filename : draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-05.txt Pages : 51 Date : 2017-03-27 Abstract: This document discusses the role of IP tunnels in the Internet architecture. An IP tunnel transits IP datagrams as payloads in non- link layer protocols. This document explains the relationship of IP tunnels to existing protocol layers and the challenges in supporting IP tunneling, based on the equivalence of tunnels to links. The implications of this document are used to derive recommendations that update MTU and fragment issues in RFC 4459. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-05 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-05 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-05 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Mar 27 08:40:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8D7C129693 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 08:40:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.879 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.879 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MISSING_HEADERS=1.021, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8zE6jUnb9xhv for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 08:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EDDFE12955F for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 08:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.189] (cpe-172-250-240-132.socal.res.rr.com [172.250.240.132]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v2RFdGEg020873 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 27 Mar 2017 08:39:18 -0700 (PDT) References: <149062888196.30638.8369941985115982808@ietfa.amsl.com> Cc: int-area@ietf.org From: Joe Touch Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 08:39:15 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <149062888196.30638.8369941985115982808@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-05.txt X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 15:40:19 -0000 Hi, all, This update catches some typos that are important for understanding the terminology changes. Joe On 3/27/2017 8:34 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Internet Area Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : IP Tunnels in the Internet Architecture > Authors : Joe Touch > Mark Townsley > Filename : draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-05.txt > Pages : 51 > Date : 2017-03-27 > > Abstract: > This document discusses the role of IP tunnels in the Internet > architecture. An IP tunnel transits IP datagrams as payloads in non- > link layer protocols. This document explains the relationship of IP > tunnels to existing protocol layers and the challenges in supporting > IP tunneling, based on the equivalence of tunnels to links. The > implications of this document are used to derive recommendations that > update MTU and fragment issues in RFC 4459. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels/ > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-05 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-05 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-05 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area From nobody Tue Mar 28 06:09:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 891FB1299AF for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 06:09:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QWUM_lcKQXbD for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 06:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (ipv6.swm.pp.se [IPv6:2a00:801::f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3CBC128990 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 06:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id 58487AA; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 15:08:57 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1490706537; bh=yhGzUb90sbSe0jJQ0e/ZtMzI5JwizN0N9rYh2TnIDxY=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=jX+9R6rGq0D4U5A1vmtQfoUApU10k6PBR97SiTS8AmPJvUJPb+z5G+C+4I01bn9rZ kye9alIPJdalFkWBJ+5uTPdaSAFetQV09G7d3ETGsbZCtEqsfcQ9VH6L8UXXxIPZnX J+Xz1yX7vgGshbpGjXD+C3LOQLyiV4JmrCeDCJv4= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55858A9 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 15:08:57 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 15:08:57 +0200 (CEST) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: int-area@ietf.org Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 2.02 (DEB 1266 2009-07-14) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Multicast draft (fwd) X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:09:03 -0000 Sending to list as well ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2017 10:26:11 +0100 (CET) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: Juan Carlos Zuniga Cc: "Stanley, Dorothy" Subject: Re: Multicast draft On Wed, 22 Mar 2017, Juan Carlos Zuniga wrote: > Hello Mikael, > > I wanted to call your attention to a new version > of draft-perkins-intarea-multicast-ieee802. After a long time we got back > to it. At the moment it is only a reordering of the same information, but > we believe this new structure will allow us advancing more the draft. > > Any comments either off-line or in the list would be appreciated. > > Note that we are planning to present at IntArea, and there is another > presentation about a multicast testbed that will reference the draft. Hi, commenting while reading through: typo: "work primarily over *wilress*" "to ameliorate the effects of multicast traffic." I had to look up what ameliorate means. A reader of 3.1.1 without background knowledge of 802.11 might infer that multicast packets are acknowledged by design. From what I understood, this is not the case and basic 802.11 operation is that multicast packets can indeed be "lost", as in not properly received by STA? 3.1.2 "slow rate". Wouldn't it be better to use "low data rate"? 3.2.1 Not all those protocols use multicast, some are broadcast (right?) 3.2.4 mixes IPv4 and IPv6 terms (not inherently wrong, but might be confusing?) 4.1. How does the AP know the address/mac mapping? DHCP snooping? 4.3. first sentence seems truncated, should be "instead of ARP" or something along those lines? Can NDP really be used to negotiate MTU? I wish this were true, but as far as I know this is only available in RA? 4.4. Is there a reference to what this function is called in 802-land? Isn't this same topic as 4.5 and 4.6? 4.6. Should there be a note on how common GCR is in currently shipping products? 5.1. "the core routers which we are using do not support this" We? I'd also be happier if stateful firewall came before NAT in this section. 5.1 doesn't have any IPv6 measures? It talks about neighbour discovery, but then only uses IPv4 terms? General comment: I'd like to see IPv4 and IPv6 used throughout the document when it's in a section that talks IPv4 or IPv6 specifics, and only use "IP" when it's talking about both. Good document, I think it's valuable to publish a document like this to spread awareness of the issues at hand! -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Tue Mar 28 09:36:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9593A128D40 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:36:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pllvglVVmLM9 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:36:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 195C212751F for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:36:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id v2SGaR41033982; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:36:27 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.239.220]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id v2SGaJtZ033793 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:36:19 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:efdc::8988:efdc) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:36:18 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1263.000; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:36:18 -0700 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Joe Touch CC: "int-area@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-05.txt Thread-Index: AQHSpxB0dZTEVAB270esoqM4xp8NZaGqcslg Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:36:17 +0000 Message-ID: <4d2a86f4948c4dc49ab3b0729743d028@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <149062888196.30638.8369941985115982808@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.136.248.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-05.txt X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:36:32 -0000 Here are my comments for this draft. Mostly editorial, but some substantial= . I also noticed several indications that further work was needed in some sections. Will those sections be worked before publication? Thanks - Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com 1) P. 5, change "in which packet sizes ... mismatch" to "in which packet size ... mismatches" 2) P. 8, definition of Path MTU, the trailing phrase "(if supported) seems awkward and does not seem necessary. Can this be dropped? 3) Section 3.2, "Tis MTU" should be "This MTU". 4) Section 3.4, "egress receives packets to decapsulates". Change "decapsulates" to "decapsulate". 5) Section 4.1, "Tunneling uses encapsulation uses a non-link protocol" looks strange. Reword to make a coherent sentence. 6) Section 4.1.4, "Although fragmentation is somewhat rare in the current Internet at large, but it can be" - eliminate "but". 7) Section 4.2.1, first paragraph after Figure 10, "The minimum EMTU_R (c) is 1500 bytes", should be: "The minimum EMTU_R (d) is 1500 bytes". 8) Section 4.2.1, third paragraph after Figure 10, "The tunnel EMTU_R is EMFS_R minus the link (encapsulation) headers includes the encapsulation headers of the link layer." - I tried, but could not parse this sentence. 9) Section 4.2.1, third paragraph after Figure 10, should cite MFS, Path MFS and EMFS_R by including their letter designators (i.e., (h), (i), (j)) as was done in the previous two paragraphs. 10) Section 4.2.1, bulleted list toward bottom of section, tunnel "atom" is a very strange word to me. Tunnel "cell"? 11) Section 4.2.2, second paragraph after Figure 12, "Transit packets larger than 1460-EHsize will be dropped" does not match with two sentences earlier where it says that the tunnel path MTU will be *at least* 1500 - (40 + EHsize). It should just say "Transit packets larger than the tunnel MTU will be dropped". 12) Section 4.2.2, paragraph beginning "An IPv6 tunnel supports IPv6 transit only if EHsize is 180 bytes or less". I know what this paragraph is trying to say, but the 180 only pertains to cases where the EMTU_R is constrained to the IPv6 minimum of 1500. When EMTU_R is larger, EHsize could also be larger. In fact, I think the document would do well to simply omit this paragraph because the relationship between EHsize and EMTU_R is already established in the previous paragraphs. 13) Section 4.2.2, final sentence is incorrect. RFC4821-style MTU probing cannot be used by tunnels due to ECMP because the probe packets may take a different path than the data packets. That is why AERO no longer uses RFC4821 probing. 14) Section 4.2.2, should include discussion of how common tunnel specs regard EMTU_R and the tunnel atom (cell) size. Namely, many common specs assume larger EMTU_R and tunnel cell sizes than are guaranteed by RFC1122 and RFC2460. That means that these tunnel specs are relying on operational assurances of larger values than the IPv4 and IPv6 minimums. Since they are already published as standards, this document needs to explain how they are able to operate without fragmentation. 15) Section 4.2.3, second paragraph "too bit to for" should be "too big for". 16) Section 4.2.3, final paragraph, "message too big" should be "packet too big". 17) Section 4.2.3 cites RFC4821, but PLPMTUD cannot be used by tunnels due to ECMP. The tunnel ingress is only the source of the tunnel packets; it is not the source of the transit packets. Since the transit packets of many different flows may be subject to the same tunnel packet encapsulation, the RFC4821 probes could travel over very different paths than the ordinary data packets and could experience very different path MTUs over those paths. 18) Section 4.3.3, For Multipoint Tunnels, please cite AERO, as well as ISATAP [RFC5214] and 6over4 [RFC2529]. They define an NBMA multipoint tunnel framework that has been around a lot longer than the other examples cited. 19) Section 4.3.3, third paragraph, I thought it was said earlier that all ingress/egress pairs must support the same MTU. I thought we agreed earlier on that that multi-MTU subnets don't work. So, I think it should say that all ingress pairs MUST support a uniform MTU. 20) Section 4.3.3, fourth paragraph, "A multipoint tunnel MUST have support for broadcast and multicast" - I think this would be better as a "SHOULD". RFC2529 and AERO support multicast, but RFC5214 does not yet it is widely deployed. 21) Section 4.3.4 second paragraph illustrates why RFC4821 cannot be used over tunnels. 22) Section 5.1, second sub-bullet under "Tunnel endpoints are network interfaces", change: "they not generate" to "they do not generate" 23) Section 5.1, first sub-bullet under "Tunnels must obey core IP requirements", Are you meaning to talk about IPv4 DF=3D1? 24) Appendix A.2 - this section should say something about implications for ECMP when a multi-encapsulation like this includes multiple packets that, if transmitted individually, would take different paths within the tunnel. Also, in the figure the insertion of the block labeled "iHa | iDa" should show up as "iHa | iDa" within the packed packet (it currently shows up as "iHa | iHa". > -----Original Message----- > From: Int-area [mailto:int-area-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joe Touch > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 8:39 AM > Cc: int-area@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-05.txt >=20 > Hi, all, >=20 > This update catches some typos that are important for understanding the > terminology changes. >=20 > Joe >=20 >=20 > On 3/27/2017 8:34 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dire= ctories. > > This draft is a work item of the Internet Area Working Group of the IET= F. > > > > Title : IP Tunnels in the Internet Architecture > > Authors : Joe Touch > > Mark Townsley > > Filename : draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-05.txt > > Pages : 51 > > Date : 2017-03-27 > > > > Abstract: > > This document discusses the role of IP tunnels in the Internet > > architecture. An IP tunnel transits IP datagrams as payloads in non- > > link layer protocols. This document explains the relationship of IP > > tunnels to existing protocol layers and the challenges in supporting > > IP tunneling, based on the equivalence of tunnels to links. The > > implications of this document are used to derive recommendations tha= t > > update MTU and fragment issues in RFC 4459. > > > > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels/ > > > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-05 > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-05 > > > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-05 > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submi= ssion > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Int-area mailing list > > Int-area@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area From nobody Tue Mar 28 11:39:58 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 820771292CE for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 11:39:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.197, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PZFt81_cezoS for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 11:39:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x236.google.com (mail-qt0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C3421297ED for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 11:39:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x236.google.com with SMTP id i34so72162367qtc.0 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 11:39:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=JSEpDvgtgwJj+QERtbmKFQuie6VwE1XfrO4rtHN+804=; b=OwAi4uGI/ZAk1gjAmRz5Xj9C3GKLcALQ8Yy3CY5pNILoD6a6UJW0IZvD3TBohhK5jl t1g0NFe31PX2DTJYUBe1y9v+/rSHWkzU4Qh+Kyp8KFQQ6D261HtGJ+PC9Yr+pVSKKawn K4e/vre04XaMQPVfUqHGZjRRwQAgveIOFcc0gmLGH+IuIqsg4y612kIAF47oBZSstktf vvgVsU+nxhohXuYRIdNVGukxxSw/rGP8fw8hmJxOZVLLX1nxsz7Zbexzspl530W2fDtd KCzcNzkMUWtmAwWBygwhy8Z2lYMBnDrYRSa86/QUJX+tRCveYOqokqlx8ilDGAhqCYLg x/UQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject :to; bh=JSEpDvgtgwJj+QERtbmKFQuie6VwE1XfrO4rtHN+804=; b=bb9SM/UfDrgQN7jKxlkLnF8w0Or+kAM7dBYYUsgeobUpzUt91nRYlhvmZMBbY8dURO TupVd2it0NiDcQBArPWXB5NEC6IrQp951AlBZXJOj+cpWlJ7HEzsYloLT6YdryTxoZif S/pb9hACyKxz03nVhmAADiQ6A0uN9q7NL+JhXc85fWVLarzIBekEr4XmTlm2UtVi1+6m 80HQw7+OKbN/1R+x+EF9QAvZn8xVg44S5Byq8EN3+kARMR497s+K5TCF2gQX77XdVLhl zBk+OrTwsCz4D+AFgARy1cMJXfgU/A9LMAkOXtODs4zIcRd7M5aUNDDZNFnz7s1VFNrT 0uWw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H0b9C5SpHjUcha6Nqnohp0ST8BkN/EiZY+2bv6W9dLMxL2LiIJwXHbkABiODOIdtodmqalrFxhpSVOk7g== X-Received: by 10.200.50.92 with SMTP id y28mr31155460qta.289.1490726393983; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 11:39:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: jinmei.tatuya@gmail.com Received: by 10.237.61.204 with HTTP; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 11:39:53 -0700 (PDT) From: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 11:39:53 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: dLtSiliRUSLTrQt-bBKQVXnEUfg Message-ID: To: Internet Area Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: [Int-area] xping and IPv6 Node Information Queries X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 18:39:57 -0000 The idea of xping reminded me of IPv6 Node Information Queries (RFC4620). In my understanding operators hated it because it was deemed to disclose too much information, and the feature is generally disabled by default if implemented. Maybe the xping draft refers to it and explains how these two are different (I've not read the entire text of xping yet - sorry). -- JINMEI, Tatuya From nobody Tue Mar 28 11:46:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FCDC1299F7 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 11:46:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=jordi.palet@consulintel.es header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zQmYSZO0Nf7P for ; 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X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 28 Mar 2017 20:45:53 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 28 Mar 2017 20:45:51 +0200 Received: from [31.133.135.95] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v11.0.3) with ESMTP id md50005397083.msg for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 20:45:51 +0200 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:170328:md50005397083::y+LR5fLpllhJNyHy:0000DNhe X-MDRemoteIP: 31.133.135.95 X-Return-Path: prvs=1260394e90=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: Int-area@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.20.0.170309 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:45:34 -0500 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Internet Area Message-ID: Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-li-intarea-nat64-prefix-dhcp-option-01.txt References: <149059458088.8011.8796812833854646141.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <149059458088.8011.8796812833854646141.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] New Version Notification for draft-li-intarea-nat64-prefix-dhcp-option-01.txt X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 18:46:05 -0000 We have submitted a new version of this document that I will be presenting = later, in case you haven=E2=80=99t read the update, so you=E2=80=99re in-sy= nc with the actual text as my presentation is based on this version. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-intarea-nat64-prefix-dhcp-option Regards, Jordi =20 -----Mensaje original----- De: Responder a: Fecha: lunes, 27 de marzo de 2017, 1:03 Para: Jianping Wu , Cong Liu , Y= ong Cui , Lishan Li ,= Jordi Palet , Jordi Palet Martinez , Fred Baker Asunto: New Version Notification for draft-li-intarea-nat64-prefix-dhcp-opt= ion-01.txt =20 A new version of I-D, draft-li-intarea-nat64-prefix-dhcp-option-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Lishan Li and posted to the IETF repository. =20 Name: draft-li-intarea-nat64-prefix-dhcp-option Revision: 01 Title: DHCPv6 Options for Discovery NAT64 Prefixes Document date: 2017-03-26 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 12 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-li-intarea-n= at64-prefix-dhcp-option-01.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-intarea-nat64= -prefix-dhcp-option/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-intarea-nat64-pref= ix-dhcp-option-01 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-intarea-= nat64-prefix-dhcp-option-01 Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-li-intarea-na= t64-prefix-dhcp-option-01 =20 Abstract: Several IPv6 transition mechanisms require the usage of stateless or stateful translators (commonly named as NAT64) able to allow IP/ICMP communication between IPv4 and IPv6 networks. =20 Those translators are using either a default Well-Known Prefix (WKP)= , and/or one or several additional Network Specific Prefix (NSP), whic= h need to be configured into the nodes willing to use the translator. Different translators will likely have different IPv6 prefixes, to attract traffic to the correct translator. Thus, an automatic translator prefix discovery method is necessary. =20 This document defines a DHCPv6-based method to inform DHCPv6 clients the set of IPv6 and IPv4 prefixes it serves. This DHCPv6 option can be used by several transition mechanisms such as SIIT, 464XLAT, EAM. =20 = =20 =20 =20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submi= ssion until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. =20 The IETF Secretariat =20 =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(= s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any dis= closure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, = including attached files, is prohibited. 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Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:08:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=KLrSiuOY3kb6BWYfLEsiD+7L5zP0Ixd9hvnHcSJz/ZI=; b=ayvFaae6KC4c9pG/8hedRzcaKXoa0gIr+LSHWUvrYXmxmepvzm0hP7wnDRiHsnk6N+32yfWK2IocVu2XudnKs7j0hWpRqCoScwb1pRW1S1Iku7lD+Qk6dn4NpxZy99Xopp69Bc2NTruqTHj0yLtgs5ZZAmozPG5luYSMp05wURY= Received: from CY1PR03MB2265.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.166.207.17) by CY1PR03MB2265.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.166.207.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.991.14; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:08:41 +0000 Received: from CY1PR03MB2265.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.166.207.17]) by CY1PR03MB2265.namprd03.prod.outlook.com ([10.166.207.17]) with mapi id 15.01.0991.021; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:08:41 +0000 From: Dave Thaler To: =?iso-2022-jp?B?GyRCP0BMQEMjOkgbKEI=?= , Internet Area Thread-Topic: [Int-area] xping and IPv6 Node Information Queries Thread-Index: AQHSp/K2KtG8babpE0+ujzq+LPub0qGqnVMw Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:08:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: wide.ad.jp; 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I think Windows even had an implementation of NIQ at one point. > -----Original Message----- > From: Int-area [mailto:int-area-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of ???? > Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 1:40 PM > To: Internet Area > Subject: [Int-area] xping and IPv6 Node Information Queries >=20 > The idea of xping reminded me of IPv6 Node Information Queries (RFC4620). > In my understanding operators hated it because it was deemed to disclose > too much information, and the feature is generally disabled by default if > implemented. Maybe the xping draft refers to it and explains how these t= wo > are different (I've not read the entire text of xping yet - sorry). >=20 > -- > JINMEI, Tatuya >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area From nobody Tue Mar 28 12:41:38 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FF95129564 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:41:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zv6NaUXrxJ58 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vapor.isi.edu (vapor.isi.edu [128.9.64.64]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8068B12955F for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.9.160.211] (mul.isi.edu [128.9.160.211]) (authenticated bits=0) by vapor.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v2SJc5ix019426 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:38:06 -0700 (PDT) To: "Templin, Fred L" References: <149062888196.30638.8369941985115982808@ietfa.amsl.com> <4d2a86f4948c4dc49ab3b0729743d028@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> Cc: "int-area@ietf.org" From: Joe Touch Message-ID: <583e59d2-f846-6cd6-8e15-f3a0888889ac@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:38:05 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4d2a86f4948c4dc49ab3b0729743d028@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-05.txt X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:41:36 -0000 Hi, Fred, Thanks for the feedback. Let's assume I incorporate the nits/bugs and I address any clarifications when I get to them in detail, so I'll jump only to the deeper issues below... Joe On 3/28/2017 9:36 AM, Templin, Fred L wrote: > Here are my comments for this draft. Mostly editorial, but some substantial. > I also noticed several indications that further work was needed in some > sections. Will those sections be worked before publication? As per Mark's presentation, it depends on whether this doc stays informational (as was adopted) or becomes BCP (as we think it probably should). If informational, much of Section 5 will be removed. If not, then that will be fleshed out. > 10) Section 4.2.1, bulleted list toward bottom of section, tunnel > "atom" is a very strange word to me. Tunnel "cell"? The concept of an atomic packet was defined in RFC 6864. This is derived from that. Cell would be introducing a new term, one that is overloaded with ATM, which we want to avoid. > 13) Section 4.2.2, final sentence is incorrect. RFC4821-style MTU > probing cannot be used by tunnels due to ECMP because the probe > packets may take a different path than the data packets. That > is why AERO no longer uses RFC4821 probing. Regarding ECMP issues, I think we need to wrap this issue up. Here's what I propose: - point out that ECMP causes problems with PMTUD (and can cause problems with PLMTUD). - an interface has two choices: - keep track of PMTU based on other packet context (flowID or next header info) - merge PMTU feedback, taking the MIN of reported values There's no magic here. It's a lot like multicast - either keep track in a way that you *think* correlates to the different PMTU feedback or take the MIN. The current doc does need a scrub to make this point clearly and consistently. > 14) Section 4.2.2, should include discussion of how common tunnel > specs regard EMTU_R and the tunnel atom (cell) size. Namely, > many common specs assume larger EMTU_R and tunnel cell sizes > than are guaranteed by RFC1122 and RFC2460. That means that > these tunnel specs are relying on operational assurances of > larger values than the IPv4 and IPv6 minimums. Since they are > already published as standards, this document needs to explain > how they are able to operate without fragmentation. I'll see what I can do to add that point; I'm hoping to not need to cite dozens of examples, though. > 17) Section 4.2.3 cites RFC4821, but PLPMTUD cannot be used by > tunnels due to ECMP. I disagree; it can, but the system needs to either take the MIN or have a way to decouple discovered PMTUs in way that can be trusted to reasonably correspond to the ECMP splitting. > 20) Section 4.3.3, fourth paragraph, "A multipoint tunnel MUST > have support for broadcast and multicast" - I think this > would be better as a "SHOULD". RFC2529 and AERO support > multicast, but RFC5214 does not yet it is widely deployed. Multicast or its equivalent. Otherwise, you can't support IPv6 multicast, which is a required capability of IPv6. > 23) Section 5.1, first sub-bullet under "Tunnels must obey core IP > requirements", Are you meaning to talk about IPv4 DF=1? Yes, and that should be made more explicit. Also honoring the EMTU_R limits until told otherwise. ----- From nobody Tue Mar 28 14:32:40 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBFED129A26 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:32:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.796, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LEWWpnEF6NZS for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from userp1040.oracle.com (userp1040.oracle.com [156.151.31.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8DE11294B0 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v2SLW9ox008506 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 28 Mar 2017 21:32:09 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v2SLW8Fi017464 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 28 Mar 2017 21:32:08 GMT Received: from abhmp0015.oracle.com (abhmp0015.oracle.com [141.146.116.21]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v2SLW8eL027261; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 21:32:08 GMT Received: from oracle.com (/207.91.160.8) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:32:08 -0700 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 17:32:05 -0400 From: Sowmini Varadhan To: rbonica@juniper.net, rejithomas@juniper.net, furry@google.com, chris.lenart@verizon.com Cc: int-area@ietf.org, sowmini.varadhan@oracle.com Message-ID: <20170328213205.GC6413@oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] Archived-At: Subject: [Int-area] question about xping (draft-bonica-intarea-eping) X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 21:32:38 -0000 Hi, The draft says ".. the destination and probed interfaces must be local to one another (i.e., both interfaces must belong to the same node)." However, virtualization raises some questions about how this should work, and maybe the draft should nail down some of the details with more clarity. What if the probed interface is assigned to a different VRF than the destination interface? e.g, What is the expected xping response if I receive # xping-I red0/0/0.0 10.10.10.1 on interface blue0 in the "blue" vrf, and red0 is in "red" VRF? Does the answer change if the destination interface is on the management VRF? similar question for other forms of virtualization, e.g,, What if the probed interface is assigned to a different network-namespace than the destination interface of an xping req? Does it matter if the above xping is received on the default network namespace vs some other network namespace? One could argue that all the physical intefaces are owned by the "node" (the management VRF? default netns?) but virtual interfaces like tunnels and macvlans are a grayer area (unlike physical interfaces, the latter do not default back to the mgmt VRF or default netns when the virtual object is destroyed, so their ownership is unclear). How should xping work in the face of virtual interfaces, e.g., the linux macvlan? How does it work when an interface is renamed? Will xping allow me to probe for "tun0" or "Portchannel1"? --Sowmini From nobody Tue Mar 28 15:09:11 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71B871294C9 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 15:09:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JnV-6_eOEj-j for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 15:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22e.google.com (mail-vk0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A308120727 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 15:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id d188so104824558vka.0 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 15:09:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=sljECEq/M2uj0BfKxsgRW4B9sodSzsaK2ygJ9kcGEVc=; b=tIx6RLJDbei606rZ4Jki8TDXM9Z+rV5zwKUkWlyQ2/nfk2h/fP2XF9XdiS1qNEaxM0 UY12RuA/eviGEKyiKpJc9FQTTsZpZolC/HasHZFqv3/tFtnTYvLH6wOVZTawCgLhTw8S rK/VLcZphTZcm/hDUrarmNsYF7r8h5w9PudaMRJVDtZlUujFDPWCh34ur6egu96/0THh uvV8Y1vWlRl2VIy+f/X59jLM6lM92XQXaSVta+c5UlmPa0EzB7HUOPytEGlD4U11Nis4 GaSW2i4F4PdZaUqj0zp5LHevXav2nWjOFaAcP7+0aU5VozyVkzMEOxsPB0Rgiqb3t09R hFgw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=sljECEq/M2uj0BfKxsgRW4B9sodSzsaK2ygJ9kcGEVc=; b=gWRycmEdkNz1/vG8hKnNCSy0Xe9OXO5/iCVoL6u9/sYwScyWevXtOLd/7qGrxZFRyh R3kxzMNEOlr880las0CJRezW8Z00uwq1BckRHDhHOq9E0mg5S0KgnzmwjFXSUwcUGbN/ 8TyfImHMPH8mz0cBOQrGWHMzSF7iRX0NetT5Ga+il3GP8/+CehwdE3sKkiH18qTgHunb nKwrCCoku8Y0DUfQb2Z3uQa/CGGwfkQEY9z2udjPBo6TAJV/uS26fuxcoG08sFmT4pnP IYQ2DxWQkr23mP7trCr5zQO2YzbZKbPtXM+MTJ4z3+/N2/PiAZ1H8zT3qTKR54tHOrj1 qC5A== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H0moPFyB+D4F75qds7raKHcMsLRRH6JztIh6vXjQHncL/mPBC3dj38nG2k76g9c2UK1/ZHW7Km5/3yY7w== X-Received: by 10.31.61.194 with SMTP id k185mr14098370vka.141.1490738946306; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 15:09:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.130.70 with HTTP; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 15:09:05 -0700 (PDT) From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 17:09:05 -0500 Message-ID: To: int-area@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114dbd7058f765054bd1b58d Archived-At: Subject: [Int-area] draft-ietf-intarea-gue X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 22:09:09 -0000 --001a114dbd7058f765054bd1b58d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi there, a couple of follow-up items on this draft: 1) It was still showing as an NVO3 draft at the same time as of this morning. I think this just got fixed. 2) Tom's email address in IANA Considerations is from two employers ago. Unless they're forwarding it, the registries should be updated with something more current and preferably something permanent-ish. Also, the Reference is "draft-herbert-gue" which no longer exists and should probably be "[this document]" or something similar; the RFC Editor knows what to do with those prior to publication. 3) Numerous sections from 3.1 down still have some "may" that aren't MAY. General RFC2119 fun. Also, 3.5.1 and several points below have "should" that aren't SHOULD. Looks like all the "MUST"s have been handled though. 4) Several of the SHOULDs don't explain under what conditions one might legitimately deviate from the advice attached to the SHOULD. 5.7 has a good example of this, but it wasn't done for others earlier on. I didn't check past there this time, but any below should also be checked. If something that's a SHOULD has no legitimate deviation, make it a MUST. 5) 3.6 reads better now, thanks. The GUEEXTENS reference is broken though (missing close-square-bracket) which means it's not made into a clickable link. -MSK --001a114dbd7058f765054bd1b58d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi there, a couple of follow-up items on this draft:<= br>
1) It was still showing as an NVO3 draft at the same time= as of this morning.=C2=A0 I think this just got fixed.

2= ) Tom's email address in IANA Considerations is from two employers ago.= =C2=A0=20 Unless they're forwarding it, the registries should be updated with=20 something more current and preferably something permanent-ish.=C2=A0 Also,= =20 the Reference is "draft-herbert-gue" which no longer exists and s= hould=20 probably be "[this document]" or something similar; the RFC Edito= r knows what to do with those prior to publication.

3)=20 Numerous sections from 3.1 down still have some "may" that aren&#= 39;t MAY.=C2=A0=20 General RFC2119 fun.=C2=A0 Also, 3.5.1 and several points below have "= should" that aren't SHOULD.=C2=A0 Looks like all the "MUST"s have be= en handled=20 though.

4) Several of the SHOULDs don't explain under= =20 what conditions one might legitimately deviate from the advice attached=20 to the SHOULD.=C2=A0 5.7 has a good example of this, but it wasn't done= for=20 others earlier on.=C2=A0 I didn't check past there this time, but any b= elow=20 should also be checked.=C2=A0 If something that's a SHOULD has no legit= imate=20 deviation, make it a MUST.

5) 3.6 reads=20 better now, thanks. The GUEEXTENS reference is broken though (missing=20 close-square-bracket) which means it's not made into a clickable link.<= br>
-MSK
--001a114dbd7058f765054bd1b58d-- From nobody Tue Mar 28 15:27:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68ADB129572 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 15:27:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.922 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.922 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=junipernetworks.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H8xBGTT0B5WF for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 15:27:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM02-CY1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-cys01nam02on0119.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.37.119]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04A9D128616 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 15:27:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=junipernetworks.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-juniper-net; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=4EVqLOS1tFCpXZ8g9lzjYawBbvsYxj53Ts7hBIBvXWE=; b=iE7YdQlObgBCSbkgYt009MzrvOnmiGPvWIpeyM148YWM1ytmtbDL0ECJ6wqQENStK2OydzIboUYEMRHoLJaedOddfcsxYfsPdPxoW+uhbYIvs49n3q9qJQQ2khAu1pFXDATEH1iIdo36d1dk0m0u2BkIjcBHEaLfz2ZxuL4zfow= Received: from BLUPR0501MB2051.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.164.23.21) by DM2PR0501MB1663.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.160.136.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1005.2; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 22:27:01 +0000 Received: from BLUPR0501MB2051.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.164.23.21]) by BLUPR0501MB2051.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.164.23.21]) with mapi id 15.01.1005.009; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 22:27:00 +0000 From: Ron Bonica To: Sowmini Varadhan , Reji Thomas , "furry@google.com" , "chris.lenart@verizon.com" CC: "int-area@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: question about xping (draft-bonica-intarea-eping) Thread-Index: AQHSqArDy5KxMIdon0qqjf3UAs9WKKGq0r3A Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 22:27:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20170328213205.GC6413@oracle.com> In-Reply-To: <20170328213205.GC6413@oracle.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: oracle.com; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:DM2PR0501MB1663; H:BLUPR0501MB2051.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 077b2f32-5505-4cc7-d0d6-08d476298d9f x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(2017030254075)(48565401081); SRVR:DM2PR0501MB1663; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(60795455431006)(138986009662008)(211936372134217)(146099531331640)(154440410675630); x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(6040375)(601004)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(3002001)(10201501046)(6055026)(6041248)(20161123560025)(20161123562025)(20161123558025)(20161123564025)(20161123555025)(6072148); SRVR:DM2PR0501MB1663; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:DM2PR0501MB1663; x-forefront-prvs: 0260457E99 spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Mar 2017 22:27:00.5778 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM2PR0501MB1663 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] question about xping (draft-bonica-intarea-eping) X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 22:27:05 -0000 Hello Sowmini, Good point! We addressed this in a previous version of the draft, but accid= entally dropped it from the current version. Our current thinking is: - If the destination and probed interfaces are in the same VRF, the ICMP Ex= tended Echo Reply message will reflect the state of the probed interface - If the destination interface is in the general or management VRF and the = probed interface is in another VRF, the ICMP Extended Echo Reply message wi= ll reflect the state of the probed interface - Otherwise, the ICMP Extended Echo message will contain an error code indi= cating that the probed interface does not exist. I will add this back to the next revision of the draft. Ron > -----Original Message----- > From: Sowmini Varadhan [mailto:sowmini.varadhan@oracle.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 5:32 PM > To: Ron Bonica ; Reji Thomas > ; furry@google.com; chris.lenart@verizon.com > Cc: int-area@ietf.org; sowmini.varadhan@oracle.com > Subject: question about xping (draft-bonica-intarea-eping) >=20 > Hi, >=20 > The draft says > ".. the destination and probed > interfaces must be local to one another (i.e., both interfaces must > belong to the same node)." >=20 > However, virtualization raises some questions about how this should work, > and maybe the draft should nail down some of the details with more clarit= y. >=20 > What if the probed interface is assigned to a different VRF than the > destination interface? e.g, What is the expected xping response if I rece= ive > # xping-I red0/0/0.0 10.10.10.1 > on interface blue0 in the "blue" vrf, and red0 is in "red" VRF? > Does the answer change if the destination interface is on the management > VRF? >=20 > similar question for other forms of virtualization, e.g,, What if the pro= bed > interface is assigned to a different network-namespace than the destinati= on > interface of an xping req? > Does it matter if the above xping is received on the default network > namespace vs some other network namespace? >=20 > One could argue that all the physical intefaces are owned by the "node" > (the management VRF? default netns?) but virtual interfaces like tunnels = and > macvlans are a grayer area (unlike physical interfaces, the latter do not > default back to the mgmt VRF or default netns when the virtual object is > destroyed, so their ownership is unclear). >=20 > How should xping work in the face of virtual interfaces, e.g., the linux > macvlan? How does it work when an interface is renamed? > Will xping allow me to probe for "tun0" or "Portchannel1"? >=20 > --Sowmini From nobody Tue Mar 28 15:41:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F9112869B for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 15:41:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.796, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tng0x_5D1Cuy for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 15:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com (aserp1040.oracle.com [141.146.126.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6186F128959 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 15:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v2SMfoOn031358 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 28 Mar 2017 22:41:50 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v2SMfo0Y023694 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 28 Mar 2017 22:41:50 GMT Received: from abhmp0010.oracle.com (abhmp0010.oracle.com [141.146.116.16]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v2SMfn8o011855; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 22:41:49 GMT Received: from oracle.com (/10.154.111.237) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 15:41:49 -0700 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 18:41:44 -0400 From: Sowmini Varadhan To: Ron Bonica Cc: Reji Thomas , "furry@google.com" , "chris.lenart@verizon.com" , "int-area@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20170328224144.GA12970@oracle.com> References: <20170328213205.GC6413@oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] question about xping (draft-bonica-intarea-eping) X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 22:41:54 -0000 On (03/28/17 22:27), Ron Bonica wrote: > Good point! We addressed this in a previous version of the draft, > but accidentally dropped it from the current version. > > Our current thinking is: > > - If the destination and probed interfaces are in the same VRF, the ICMP > Extended Echo Reply message will reflect the state of the probed interface > - If the destination interface is in the general or management VRF > and the probed interface is in another VRF, the ICMP Extended Echo Reply > message will reflect the state of the probed interface > - Otherwise, the ICMP Extended Echo message will contain an error code > indicating that the probed interface does not exist. > > I will add this back to the next revision of the draft. > Ok, but what about other forms of VRF-like virtualization like network namespaces? Things can get a bit trickier here because the same ifname can exist in multiple virtual objects. Also, interface ownership can be more blurry for some of these virtualization models like network namespaces- it's not always clear that the hypervisor ("default netns") owns the interface, when the interface is virtual. --Sowmini From nobody Tue Mar 28 16:04:33 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A408F126BFD for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:04:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.922 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.922 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=junipernetworks.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RqOXnAP75hg3 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM03-CO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-co1nam03on0134.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.40.134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D3F3128959 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:04:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=junipernetworks.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-juniper-net; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=Gbj4u94/NNZK4c0DkYWJ5+ZqcEWm7LKRup7G5yXaSFI=; b=efY5BrqKvDIX6InQnSjvES0/0Fv6tg4xJp5pvR9k92hH7FJuEQm8WkCKTci6jRYu488+lJEJ2G9vd9S9X/cX+B0LLcmVNxPQgZb6zlin8TAG0nZEr/CMgnrwlPcS9MGepGlmOtwTOrTHnvz0l/NJK96AjJj4x8Wd/rPB8KmKXdc= Received: from BLUPR0501MB2051.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.164.23.21) by BLUPR0501MB2052.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.164.23.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1005.2; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 23:04:26 +0000 Received: from BLUPR0501MB2051.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.164.23.21]) by BLUPR0501MB2051.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.164.23.21]) with mapi id 15.01.1005.009; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 23:04:26 +0000 From: Ron Bonica To: "int-area@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: xping and IPv6 Node Information Queries (????) Thread-Index: AdKoF6JY+G71n70uSm6G7lQNOLOBlg== Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 23:04:26 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=juniper.net; x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.10] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BLUPR0501MB2052; 7:sSTEc2VZpDp6En7iJPTabpHfGmp8M6DR/GXYFdvQMsJ3CJqbFgwKXaHINucbul9y+DRDSaMSEmB/FVWEVphcM0eKpp5Cuq7hEG2zRsra5gtrWsfex9zedSzYWZE7E7s/n1Bsf1RRQNDDDlo9hVClfkohK+TVsfKclBMajpjqeh9P16iAPMCkfkwRBBQ0YGvazxdDZ9g8jeJxvSG6FpnBlt6iHPatygapYSuh9Bzum85f6hqBlwLbuobD0wn0ZvI0w6zc6b5FPk1zPzITF1kfML7BqpuqA+Knefd73vUQacF22GJH1jrLGQRKpJgXCbz2VWiGavckrs1tnIde6KsAKA== x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: bead4e5f-fa9b-462f-e1ec-08d4762ec831 x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(2017030254075)(48565401081)(201703131423067)(201703031133073)(201702281549067); SRVR:BLUPR0501MB2052; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(192374486261705); x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(6040442)(601004)(2401047)(5005006)(8121501046)(10201501046)(3002001)(6055026)(6041248)(201703131423067)(201702281528067)(201703011903067)(201703061421067)(20161123564025)(20161123555025)(20161123562025)(20161123558025)(20161123560025)(6072148); SRVR:BLUPR0501MB2052; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BLUPR0501MB2052; x-forefront-prvs: 0260457E99 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(39400400002)(39840400002)(39860400002)(39410400002)(39450400003)(39850400002)(25786009)(5640700003)(3660700001)(6436002)(54356999)(53546009)(9686003)(102836003)(6116002)(2906002)(50986999)(33656002)(8676002)(8936002)(86362001)(575784001)(77096006)(3280700002)(99286003)(3846002)(6506006)(55016002)(229853002)(122556002)(2501003)(74316002)(5660300001)(7736002)(2351001)(189998001)(6246003)(110136004)(38730400002)(305945005)(2900100001)(53936002)(66066001)(6916009)(7696004); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BLUPR0501MB2052; H:BLUPR0501MB2051.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Mar 2017 23:04:26.3055 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BLUPR0501MB2052 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] xping and IPv6 Node Information Queries (????) X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 23:04:32 -0000 Hi Jinmei, Nominally, XPING only returns the following information: - Interface status (UP/DOWN/Does not exist) - Protocols running on the interface (IPv4, IPv6) Some additional information may be gleaned. We see this as a security issue= and present mitigations. Please see the Security Considerations section. Ron >=20 > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 11:39:53 -0700 > From: ???? > To: Internet Area > Subject: [Int-area] xping and IPv6 Node Information Queries > Message-ID: > YKwbjA98A0FSmuZSDdx4fAn=3Ds1rMhsgOKsw@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8 >=20 > The idea of xping reminded me of IPv6 Node Information Queries > (RFC4620). In my understanding operators hated it because it was > deemed to disclose too much information, and the feature is generally > disabled by default if implemented. Maybe the xping draft refers to > it and explains how these two are different (I've not read the entire > text of xping yet - sorry). >=20 > -- > JINMEI, Tatuya >=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Tue Mar 28 16:23:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8918C129583 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:23:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.702 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.197, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ddXPZB7GciGJ for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x22e.google.com (mail-qt0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F336212949D for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:22:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id r45so77680808qte.3 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:22:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=pCdmZb9rMBbYQS1Mck3HuH0EaKk+pfR0UTdSJYFN/BA=; b=QiWtll5ce0lAfGBv19LV4YjecsMur+EuMYlhGVAllZBx/wOwThSy7RsGhhjLX7jE9i mVTsDbiCDlQjHCMvGDYiY5wvVGre1HJr040P4byoxaYTjZMz84JiSzQopzSaF7Ofzr/y uwMnf7sn89ZQ8WviYd0EAzVhNQsyp8dmruomumiSbEZAVGHkMQ9rvHRQ6oEJ+6oSP+OM HpNmcaUMBhcqci6Sh9i+hI5V/oBXJ8uoJqyhiX6/ohz06MIBW+2iVd/e43StnSMrHzDc nF+x1U8G5zwge9Gl0pfrbRcns8FKbNwrd+qs2hrEijoGaxKf2gvcSBbkaljLCGAFPaFc vBww== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pCdmZb9rMBbYQS1Mck3HuH0EaKk+pfR0UTdSJYFN/BA=; b=RVWVKtgF3iZ1jEScn4gAqQv0YilRFPDqxaCPJ0DuMaOIQaWWrDtqnsZEgC4EDsgLIJ f9FX8Kw5x8zZsNQBGytwJ9HD5Cm7ii1sXWHkDXJcsdcG2FrniVbRoj79/4PaZyBY8QgE yxivghanzjHuGwFt+WOv3Xnu8pU3M3sOapg6U4KLIuVUsDrvc01FtVUJRQ0m1WEIb87B lsNCakFxZ0Xi3FegVaBJ5ZC9O8qhYQe7dkM9Bq7NyuZjmSM9VKd0XToCLy2sv/l48mQ2 paHUJwFBVD0rAJ3qRx6KA7/UWfC5lJjp1syPRhQ9jPqiADD/djgDTYus/neVCY0QehtX DL+w== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H15qR/+kbUIHjMu7YlPg37R8hpcWw9lhiiHpfgJxkP78sua6fl5dimUxZPBFrp00opmUVYKHxZXTeiM/Q== X-Received: by 10.237.42.194 with SMTP id t60mr31515781qtd.269.1490743374961; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:22:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: jinmei.tatuya@gmail.com Received: by 10.237.61.204 with HTTP; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:22:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:22:54 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: S5QopFbaCXd7acGKrh2FuRa1ty4 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: "int-area@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] xping and IPv6 Node Information Queries (????) X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 23:23:00 -0000 At Tue, 28 Mar 2017 23:04:26 +0000, Ron Bonica wrote: > Nominally, XPING only returns the following information: > > - Interface status (UP/DOWN/Does not exist) > - Protocols running on the interface (IPv4, IPv6) > > Some additional information may be gleaned. We see this as a > security issue and present mitigations. Please see the Security > Considerations section. It looks good to me. I didn't intend to say xping is a bad idea just like NIQ isn't deployed very well, but just wanted to point out that both share some similar considerations. And so this is a suggestion for a future version of this draft: > > Maybe the xping draft refers to > > it and explains how these two are different. -- JINMEI, Tatuya From nobody Wed Mar 29 07:50:33 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DCE9128DF3 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 07:50:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.921 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.921 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=junipernetworks.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D3oCg5EU3lmW for ; 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x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(6040450)(601004)(2401047)(5005006)(8121501046)(10201501046)(3002001)(6055026)(6041248)(20161123560025)(20161123555025)(20161123564025)(20161123562025)(201703131423075)(201702281528075)(201703061421075)(201703061406075)(20161123558025)(6072148); SRVR:CY1PR0501MB1660; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:CY1PR0501MB1660; x-forefront-prvs: 0261CCEEDF spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 29 Mar 2017 14:50:27.5852 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY1PR0501MB1660 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] question about xping (draft-bonica-intarea-eping) X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:50:32 -0000 Sowmini, You have convinced me that there should be no information leaking at all. S= o, I think that the next version of the draft should enforce the following = rules: - If the destination and probed interfaces are in the same VRF/routing ins= tance/namespace, the ICMP Extended Echo Reply message will reflect the stat= e of the probe interface - Otherwise, the ICMP Extended Echo message will contain an error code indi= cating that the probed interface does not exist. Do you agree? Ron > -----Original Message----- > From: Sowmini Varadhan [mailto:sowmini.varadhan@oracle.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 6:42 PM > To: Ron Bonica > Cc: Reji Thomas ; furry@google.com; > chris.lenart@verizon.com; int-area@ietf.org > Subject: Re: question about xping (draft-bonica-intarea-eping) >=20 > On (03/28/17 22:27), Ron Bonica wrote: > > Good point! We addressed this in a previous version of the draft, but > > accidentally dropped it from the current version. > > > > Our current thinking is: > > > > - If the destination and probed interfaces are in the same VRF, the > > ICMP Extended Echo Reply message will reflect the state of the probed > > interface > > - If the destination interface is in the general or management VRF and > > the probed interface is in another VRF, the ICMP Extended Echo Reply > > message will reflect the state of the probed interface > > - Otherwise, the ICMP Extended Echo message will contain an error code > > indicating that the probed interface does not exist. > > > > I will add this back to the next revision of the draft. > > >=20 > Ok, but what about other forms of VRF-like virtualization like network > namespaces? Things can get a bit trickier here because the same ifname ca= n > exist in multiple virtual objects. >=20 > Also, interface ownership can be more blurry for some of these virtualiza= tion > models like network namespaces- it's not always clear that the hypervisor > ("default netns") owns the interface, when the interface is virtual. >=20 > --Sowmini From nobody Wed Mar 29 08:33:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E430E1296D7 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 08:32:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.796, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Ra6LOuVxCwR for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 08:32:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com (aserp1040.oracle.com [141.146.126.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 73E871296D3 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 08:32:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from userv0022.oracle.com (userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id v2TFWsnr026566 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:32:55 GMT Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0022.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v2TFWsRg022953 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:32:54 GMT Received: from abhmp0013.oracle.com (abhmp0013.oracle.com [141.146.116.19]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v2TFWsTI014540; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:32:54 GMT Received: from oracle.com (/207.91.160.7) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 08:32:53 -0700 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:32:47 -0400 From: Sowmini Varadhan To: Ron Bonica Cc: Reji Thomas , "furry@google.com" , "chris.lenart@verizon.com" , "int-area@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20170329153247.GA6324@oracle.com> References: <20170328213205.GC6413@oracle.com> <20170328224144.GA12970@oracle.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Source-IP: userv0022.oracle.com [156.151.31.74] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] question about xping (draft-bonica-intarea-eping) X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:32:59 -0000 On (03/29/17 14:50), Ron Bonica wrote: > > Sowmini, > > You have convinced me that there should be no information leaking at > all. So, I think that the next version of the draft should enforce the > following rules: > > - If the destination and probed interfaces are in the same VRF/routing > instance/namespace, the ICMP Extended Echo Reply message will reflect > the state of the probe interface > - Otherwise, the ICMP Extended Echo message will contain an error code > indicating that the probed interface does not exist. > > Do you agree? Yes, that's a much more consistent model (esp since the same IP address can itself exist in multiple VRFs) and also extends without loss of generality to other virtualization models. thanks for addressing this! --Sowmini From nobody Wed Mar 29 14:18:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44C471295EB for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:18:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nW2VcjiNrDI7 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45F0112945D for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id v2TLIelx026997; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:18:40 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-07.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-07.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.238.213]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id v2TLIbAh026954 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:18:37 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-07.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eed5::8988:eed5) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:18:36 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1263.000; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:18:36 -0700 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Joe Touch CC: "int-area@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-05.txt Thread-Index: AQHSpxB0dZTEVAB270esoqM4xp8NZaGqcslggACqEoCAASy6sA== Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 21:18:36 +0000 Message-ID: <6ede932f07ca4b8ebd17f82e17eb4cf4@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <149062888196.30638.8369941985115982808@ietfa.amsl.com> <4d2a86f4948c4dc49ab3b0729743d028@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <583e59d2-f846-6cd6-8e15-f3a0888889ac@isi.edu> In-Reply-To: <583e59d2-f846-6cd6-8e15-f3a0888889ac@isi.edu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.136.248.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-05.txt X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 21:18:43 -0000 Hi Joe, See below: > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Touch [mailto:touch@isi.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 12:38 PM > To: Templin, Fred L > Cc: int-area@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-05.txt >=20 > Hi, Fred, >=20 > Thanks for the feedback. Let's assume I incorporate the nits/bugs and I > address any clarifications when I get to them in detail, so I'll jump > only to the deeper issues below... >=20 > Joe >=20 >=20 > On 3/28/2017 9:36 AM, Templin, Fred L wrote: > > Here are my comments for this draft. Mostly editorial, but some substan= tial. > > I also noticed several indications that further work was needed in some > > sections. Will those sections be worked before publication? > As per Mark's presentation, it depends on whether this doc stays > informational (as was adopted) or becomes BCP (as we think it probably > should). >=20 > If informational, much of Section 5 will be removed. If not, then that > will be fleshed out. >=20 > > 10) Section 4.2.1, bulleted list toward bottom of section, tunnel > > "atom" is a very strange word to me. Tunnel "cell"? >=20 > The concept of an atomic packet was defined in RFC 6864. This is derived > from that. Cell would be introducing a new term, one that is overloaded > with ATM, which we want to avoid. OK, but then please find a way to call it an "atomic packet". Calling it an "atom" would be introducing a new term here, and we could argue whether the term would have more or less baggage than the term "cell". > > 13) Section 4.2.2, final sentence is incorrect. RFC4821-style MTU > > probing cannot be used by tunnels due to ECMP because the probe > > packets may take a different path than the data packets. That > > is why AERO no longer uses RFC4821 probing. >=20 > Regarding ECMP issues, I think we need to wrap this issue up. Here's > what I propose: >=20 > - point out that ECMP causes problems with PMTUD (and can cause problems > with PLMTUD). > - an interface has two choices: > - keep track of PMTU based on other packet context (flowID or next > header info) > - merge PMTU feedback, taking the MIN of reported values The problem is that some paths in the multipath may fail to deliver the ICMPs. So there is no way to know whether the MIN has been determined. Also the ingress may be handling transit packets sourced by a very large number of original sources each of which produce a very large number of distinct flows. So, there is no way for the ingress to cache all of the flow information it handles. > There's no magic here. It's a lot like multicast - either keep track in > a way that you *think* correlates to the different PMTU feedback or take > the MIN. It only works if all paths on the mutlipath can be counted on to deliver the ICMPs. If any paths in the multipath fail to deliver the ICMPs, it black holes. And, this is a known problem. > The current doc does need a scrub to make this point clearly and > consistently. It doesn't work, regardless of the amount of scrubbing. > > 14) Section 4.2.2, should include discussion of how common tunnel > > specs regard EMTU_R and the tunnel atom (cell) size. Namely, > > many common specs assume larger EMTU_R and tunnel cell sizes > > than are guaranteed by RFC1122 and RFC2460. That means that > > these tunnel specs are relying on operational assurances of > > larger values than the IPv4 and IPv6 minimums. Since they are > > already published as standards, this document needs to explain > > how they are able to operate without fragmentation. > I'll see what I can do to add that point; I'm hoping to not need to cite > dozens of examples, though. OK, and I agree that you shouldn't need to cite the multitude of standards that do this. > > 17) Section 4.2.3 cites RFC4821, but PLPMTUD cannot be used by > > tunnels due to ECMP. > I disagree; it can, but the system needs to either take the MIN or have > a way to decouple discovered PMTUs in way that can be trusted to > reasonably correspond to the ECMP splitting. It doesn't work in the generalized case. The ECMP might split into a multitude of distinct paths, and there is no way for the ingress to known which of the paths have been tested. And, all it takes is one un-tested path in the multipath and there is potential for a black hole.=20 > > 20) Section 4.3.3, fourth paragraph, "A multipoint tunnel MUST > > have support for broadcast and multicast" - I think this > > would be better as a "SHOULD". RFC2529 and AERO support > > multicast, but RFC5214 does not yet it is widely deployed. >=20 > Multicast or its equivalent. Otherwise, you can't support IPv6 > multicast, which is a required capability of IPv6. Large NBMA links can connect many nodes - thousands or more. So, for link-scoped multicast, serialized multicast (i.e., multicast via iterative unicast) would not scale. That is why some large NBMA links (e.g., RFC5214, AERO) use unicast NS/NA/RS/RA instead of link-scoped multicast, as permitted by RFC4861. Link-scoped multicast service discovery (e.g., DHCPv6 discovery) is supported via multicast mapping to a unicast link-layer address.=20 > > 23) Section 5.1, first sub-bullet under "Tunnels must obey core IP > > requirements", Are you meaning to talk about IPv4 DF=3D1? >=20 > Yes, and that should be made more explicit. Also honoring the EMTU_R > limits until told otherwise. OK. One other comment. I agree with figures 12 and 13 but (and I think this is a crucial point) I think they need a supporting sentence or two explaining why the procedure is "fragment then encapsulate" and not "encapsulate then fragment". This is the difference between tunnel fragmentation and ordinary outer fragmentation, where your document is correctly advocating tunnel fragmentation. To the best of my knowledge, this was first documented in Section 3.1.7 of RFC2764 and should be cited as such. At least, that is what Bob B. suggested to me about 10yrs ago. Thanks - Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com =20 > ----- From nobody Wed Mar 29 15:06:39 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 161D3126DDF for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:06:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LWMpos0b4oCM for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:06:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A7E79126C23 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:06:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.189] (cpe-172-250-240-132.socal.res.rr.com [172.250.240.132]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v2TM6BlH021582 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:06:13 -0700 (PDT) To: "Templin, Fred L" References: <149062888196.30638.8369941985115982808@ietfa.amsl.com> <4d2a86f4948c4dc49ab3b0729743d028@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <583e59d2-f846-6cd6-8e15-f3a0888889ac@isi.edu> <6ede932f07ca4b8ebd17f82e17eb4cf4@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> Cc: "int-area@ietf.org" From: Joe Touch Message-ID: <340d81c0-8af9-b353-44ec-f40c722745f5@isi.edu> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:06:10 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6ede932f07ca4b8ebd17f82e17eb4cf4@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels-05.txt X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 22:06:37 -0000 Hi, Fred, I think we're agreed except for PMTUD and PLMTUD. See below about the latter (AFAICT, if it black holes, then the PLMTUD would detect a failure to make forward progress). Black-holing in PMTUD is known and not something this (or any other doc) is fixing, but also a known standard. Joe On 3/29/2017 2:18 PM, Templin, Fred L wrote: > ... >>> 10) Section 4.2.1, bulleted list toward bottom of section, tunnel >>> "atom" is a very strange word to me. Tunnel "cell"? >> The concept of an atomic packet was defined in RFC 6864. This is derived >> from that. Cell would be introducing a new term, one that is overloaded >> with ATM, which we want to avoid. > OK, but then please find a way to call it an "atomic packet". Agreed. > ... >>> 13) Section 4.2.2, final sentence is incorrect. RFC4821-style MTU >>> probing cannot be used by tunnels due to ECMP because the probe >>> packets may take a different path than the data packets. That >>> is why AERO no longer uses RFC4821 probing. >> Regarding ECMP issues, I think we need to wrap this issue up. Here's >> what I propose: >> >> - point out that ECMP causes problems with PMTUD (and can cause problems >> with PLMTUD). >> - an interface has two choices: >> - keep track of PMTU based on other packet context (flowID or next >> header info) >> - merge PMTU feedback, taking the MIN of reported values > The problem is that some paths in the multipath may fail to deliver > the ICMPs. So there is no way to know whether the MIN has been > determined. That's no different from the multicast case, though. > Also the ingress may be handling transit packets sourced > by a very large number of original sources each of which produce > a very large number of distinct flows. So, there is no way for the > ingress to cache all of the flow information it handles. Min requires maintaining the same information as any interface would keep. > >> There's no magic here. It's a lot like multicast - either keep track in >> a way that you *think* correlates to the different PMTU feedback or take >> the MIN. > It only works if all paths on the mutlipath can be counted on to deliver > the ICMPs. If any paths in the multipath fail to deliver the ICMPs, it > black holes. And, this is a known problem. Again, same as multicast, and frankly also the same as unicast when the ICMPs are blocked. That's a known problem with PMTUD. > >> The current doc does need a scrub to make this point clearly and >> consistently. > It doesn't work, regardless of the amount of scrubbing. If your point is that PMTUD doesn't work and should never be used, that's clearly not accurate and unlikely to get WG consensus. You're welcome to try, though. However, 1981bis is on its way to increased standards maturity as we speak. > ... >>> 17) Section 4.2.3 cites RFC4821, but PLPMTUD cannot be used by >>> tunnels due to ECMP. >> I disagree; it can, but the system needs to either take the MIN or have >> a way to decouple discovered PMTUs in way that can be trusted to >> reasonably correspond to the ECMP splitting. > It doesn't work in the generalized case. The ECMP might split into a > multitude of distinct paths, and there is no way for the ingress to > known which of the paths have been tested. And, all it takes is > one un-tested path in the multipath and there is potential for a > black hole. If PLPMTUD thinks the protocol is making forward progress, then it is not a black hole. > >>> 20) Section 4.3.3, fourth paragraph, "A multipoint tunnel MUST >>> have support for broadcast and multicast" - I think this >>> would be better as a "SHOULD". RFC2529 and AERO support >>> multicast, but RFC5214 does not yet it is widely deployed. >> Multicast or its equivalent. Otherwise, you can't support IPv6 >> multicast, which is a required capability of IPv6. > Large NBMA links can connect many nodes - thousands or more. > So, for link-scoped multicast, serialized multicast (i.e., multicast > via iterative unicast) would not scale. Serial multicast is not the only equivalent. LANE pushed broadcast ARPs to a unicast ARP server. And yes, that won't scale to millions of links, but then if/when it doesn't scale, then you cease to be able to claim this is a valid IP link. Multicast is not an optional protocol for IPv6 in particular. > That is why some large NBMA links (e.g., RFC5214, AERO) use unicast > NS/NA/RS/RA instead of link-scoped multicast, as permitted by RFC4861. > Link-scoped multicast service discovery (e.g., DHCPv6 discovery) is > supported via multicast mapping to a unicast link-layer address. Essentially like LANE. > >>> 23) Section 5.1, first sub-bullet under "Tunnels must obey core IP >>> requirements", Are you meaning to talk about IPv4 DF=1? >> Yes, and that should be made more explicit. Also honoring the EMTU_R >> limits until told otherwise. > OK. > > One other comment. I agree with figures 12 and 13 but (and I think this is > a crucial point) I think they need a supporting sentence or two explaining > why the procedure is "fragment then encapsulate" and not "encapsulate > then fragment". Agreed. > This is the difference between tunnel fragmentation > and ordinary outer fragmentation, where your document is correctly > advocating tunnel fragmentation. To the best of my knowledge, this was > first documented in Section 3.1.7 of RFC2764 and should be cited as such. > At least, that is what Bob B. suggested to me about 10yrs ago. I'll check that... ---- From nobody Wed Mar 29 15:46:39 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE845129434 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:46:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.935 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.935 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T9tqvogLqKcU for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c.mail.sonic.net (c.mail.sonic.net [64.142.111.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 892271295EE for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [31.133.133.70] (dhcp-8546.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.133.70]) (authenticated bits=0) by c.mail.sonic.net (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTPSA id v2TMkLwt024479 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:46:22 -0700 To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Erik Nordmark , Richard Li , "int-area@ietf.org" , Wassim Haddad , "Dorothy Stanley (DStanley@arubanetworks.com)" References: <923f7967-0e76-fa13-9cd3-fc5e153df784@acm.org> <425de076ca264ac0bca2fc56aa4b60c6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> From: Erik Nordmark Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 17:46:21 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <425de076ca264ac0bca2fc56aa4b60c6@XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sonic-CAuth: UmFuZG9tSVZuwLbj+hjw7Eq1Hp87hiCEtU99PiCUgKQ4yEgqWTFpF0lj32spn0v+H7dd+KexNLyaStvT1U+KnTvGCWQH9AA4 X-Sonic-ID: C;lFzCh9EU5xGj4dRbNyX4rQ== M;xEsWiNEU5xGj4dRbNyX4rQ== X-Sonic-Spam-Details: 0.0/5.0 by cerberusd Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] WG Adoption Call: IP over Intentionally Partitioned Links X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 22:46:38 -0000 Pascal, I think the root of this discussion is the distinction between IPPL and multi-link subnets, which are similar but not they same. Thus I'm planning to add this paragraph to the end of section 1: The cases covered in this document are where the link has been intentionally partitioned, which is different from the cases where a collection of links are joined to have a common IP subnet prefix. An example of the differences is the expected behavior for packets sent to link-local IP addresses. The issues for such multi-link subnets are described in [RFC4903]. I don't know if we should add more text to further clarify this distinction. please see more inline. On 03/02/2017 06:29 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > Erik wrote: > Do you know of any existing document/protocol which describes such > intentionally partitioned tunnel setups? > > If so there would be something we could reference, and there would be a > reason to clarify the scope in this document. > > > > > > [Pascal] I'm thinking of the cases described in IPv6 ND proxies, RFC > 4389; the case above would be scenario 2, and the desire would be to > avoid copying the L2 broadcasts over the possibly slow PPP link. ND > proxy can indeed be useful in subnet configurations where people want to > isolate portions of the layer 2 network, not necessarily for security > reasons but also, say, to limit the broadcast domain and protect > wireless clients. The configurations proposed in the RFC force going > through L3 and appears to me as forms of IPPL. Would you agree? The IPPL draft does mention RFC4389 not as a network topology but as a potential solution. You might want to look at that text if you haven't already. So while in principle IPPL can be applied to a subnet split across tunnels, I still don't have a document to reference which shows a IPPL tunnel setup. >> * Finally there's the multilink subnet whereby the router > interconnects the limited ports with the core at L3. In that case, the > router has multiple ports on the subnet, as opposed to the PVLAN where > it has only one, thus the risk of ARP loop. This case appears to be not > covered, though it makes the proxy ARP operation much more natural. Is > that correct? > > > > For me to understand your case you have to separate out the L3 > configuration and what it sees as L3 interfaces (whether those are L3 > ports or SVIs); for IPPL it doesn't matter which mapping there is > between L3 interfaces and L2 ports. > > > > So are the ports you refer to L2 ports with IP seeing an SVI? Or > something else? > > > > [Pascal] No, I’m not talking about an SVI but about placing a router > where the IPPL draft places a switch. But that would be out of scope of this draft. IPPL is looking at cases where the layer2 is intentionally set up to provide partial connectivity and what layer3 needs to do to correctly handle such links i.e. coping with the L2 behavior. If layer3 is doing something (like multi-link subnets) to gather multiple links into a subnet prefix, then layer3 is fully in control. Note that in a multi-link subnet case, packets sent to link-local addresses (IPv4/v6 multicast and IPv6 unicast) would by definition stay within the scope of the link. The subnet scope is larger than the link. For IPPL the link itself is partitioned hence the expectation is that packets addressed to link local destinations will be delivered. (Of course, in some deployments there might be security policies resulting blocking some particular 5-tuple > > > > The router also has the effect of partitioning the L2 broadcast domain. No, in that case the router is gluing things together, not coping with some L2 behavior. The broadcast domain would be partitioned before the router glues together the multiple links into one subnet. > I understand that IEEE Std 802.11 recommends the use of ND proxy to > protect the wireless edge, which is yet another form of topology, not > explicited by RFC 4389, but covered by draft-ietf-6lo-backbone-router > for the context of constrained power. Ccing Dorothy to make sure I’m not > mis-representing the IEEE position. That sounds like a combined L2 and L3 solution, which is different than IPPL. > My question is really about the scope of the IPPL document, considering > that the term IPPL seems a lot larger in scope than private vlans… The document has three examples (DSL, Cable, and private VLANs) where the L2 forwarding of frames on the link is not transitive yet the link is seen as a single link by IP, and where IP has to cope with the implications of the L2 behavior. Private VLANs has the richest behavior of those, hence requires the most care. Intentionally joining multiple links into a multi-link IP subnet is different and we already have that behavior specified in other RFCs. > [Pascal] I agree that the DAD that the Pvlan nodes see are issued by the > router, and that’s how the end device are kept unaware of each other, > and that’s part of the router being a proxy. My point was not about the > information being transported with the same packet, but about the loop > avoidance text in the proxy operation: > > “ > > For the ARP proxy to be robust it MUST avoid loops where router1 > attached to the link sends an ARP request which is received by > router2 (also attached to the link), resulting in an ARP request from > router2 to be received by router1. > “ > Point is, the L3 switch makes a difference between what’s coming from an > access port that’s private and what’s coming from a port connected to > the primary vlan (the backbone) where the routers are sitting. In > particular, DAD requests coming from the primary are not proxied back to > the primary, so there is no loop. The proxy checks if it has a matching > state on a private port in which case it replies, otherwise it drops the > DAD packet. Such a VLAN ID check is what that section suggests. Do you see something missing? >> " At a minimum, the reception of an ARP request MUST NOT result in sending an ARP request, and..." The "and" seems to read like this is a rule and there is more. But this is not required to obtain the intented loop avoidance, for instance the suggestion that > the routers do not forward ARPs coming from other routers known by MAC@ > but forward the others, and it appears to kill the design above. I'd > suggest to remove that quoted text, or say that this in one way of > achieving the recommendation to avoid loops that is already there. If router1 has sent out an ARP request using the promiscuous VLAN ID, then the bridges will deliver it to all the ports. Hence there is no purpose for router2 to send an ARP request for the same target as a result of receiving the ARP request from router1. > [Pascal] I thought this discussion is about proxying the ARP. And I’m > saying that “the reception of an ARP request†may actually “ result in > sending an ARP request†as long as the flooding domain is controlled and > loops are avoided, as discussed just above. Probably le being confused > in the scope of the text I was reading. Let's get together and draw the packet flow so we can understand the case you have in mind. >> "For that reason it is NOT RECOMMENDED to configure outbound multicast forwarding from private VLANs." Not all protocols would be impacted in a same manner. I think that the recommendation, which applies to ND more than to many others because of DAD, could be > more specific, like that whatever is done to propagate a multicast > beyond the limited scope allowed by the PVLAN should ensure that the > multicast is either harmless to the protocol it is propagating, or not > echoed back to the source device at all. Then again, the latter is > something that can be done in a L3 switch and a ML subnet router. > > > > > ND packets are never forwarded in any useful way since forward (as > described in RFCs) is a an IP operation which includes decrementing the > ttl/hopcount and ND verifies that hopcount is 255 on receipt. > > > > [Pascal] I was confused again. I though the forwarding term here was > describing the switch behavior, and I read this text as a recommendation > that the switch does not propagate the multicast.. I'll make this more clear by using "IP forward" and "L2 forward" instead of the generic "forward". > Section 8 tries to explain that issue with > > > > IP Multicast which spans across multiple IP links and that have > > senders that are on community or isolated ports require additional > > forwarding mechanisms in the routers that are attached to the > > promiscuous ports, since the routers need to forward such packets out > > to any allowed receivers in the private VLAN without resulting in > > packet duplication. For multicast senders on isolated ports such > > forwarding would result in the sender potentially receiving the > > packet it transmitted. For multicast senders on community ports, any > > receivers in the same community VLAN are subject to receiving > > duplicate packets; one copy directly from layer 2 from the sender and > > a second copy forwarded by the multicast router. > > > > > > [Pascal] I must admit I do not fully understand what this text. Maybe a > picture with the routers and the switches showing the packet duplication > at work? Let me see what I can do. Erik From nobody Thu Mar 30 06:16:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 938B41296AA for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 06:16:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.046 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.046 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NvsOVxbYSt4Y for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 06:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR02-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092068054.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.68.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5AC7A1294AF for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 06:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from HE1EUR02FT013.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.10.51) by HE1EUR02HT118.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.10.176) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.1005.5; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:16:46 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.10.56) by HE1EUR02FT013.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.10.93) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.1005.5 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:16:46 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) by AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) with mapi id 15.01.0991.022; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:16:46 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: "int-area@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. Thread-Index: AdKpViCv4ucVibQQSyGDqyi2P9NswA== Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:16:46 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:E5BBC5F39B53E0ECF7801D548BCDAB0BCCEE85BB8EBE6922E6C9E0C2BEE74F4C; UpperCasedChecksum:C71EDB1C79E71531123F4D264C34B7038C47C373AFE0EF424EF4F6BEA5D38EEA; SizeAsReceived:8037; Count:40 x-tmn: [mcUdiRGd8glV3oJKS1zRvllHBcG0Wqz2] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; HE1EUR02HT118; 5:0WLYG1z//5PcacHG7dLJMVXPhvQGMXFjyP4mvJjyksJaymq69QHdeoR8rjNj+eisGOv1TvdrQqNZWjm6FxyPeOt7qx7UwPi+fj6sjPd5pX8D7CFt5LlU8spwh6O2AyT6v1cbonfBUiXFGcJXJ79R1w==; 24:+sTPnt+kvgU7UaznTwuGQF4sn1djxqJdXoQ64k8YR6GjRaGiM9LhTNn1bLih1Ta0+Zv10nTGlKEcw82XR7o5ZLXH7sP/VuZX+na95tnuVHM=; 7:viUB3rJ2Dplv92Kxs1Q1DpB7Ej5W3qcatyBvWSd6S2Y/ZFI2WGJaZc94MiTFd20egMrGRqEotLiOpGd53me5hfLmes7PhXpoK6GDmVaBlOTROu3FpBytep3Dh0F5lW1U/0NO0sxd/KFM+oVpTGQkE/0Aenfkhd9I3Ggep8KTDkVpohSyxQXFobQ68txO7aO5IMNWMBOnf9d5iciREu/XJnRlrWNmU95/g307q9nYIQY3736sWiof66C6PPmNiaf7O4P3bYVe+EAjUx/PUiwMB6rs8GkOIBM4p5lkcl19KvIRe5y0nguBcYahOZIhkxxc x-incomingheadercount: 40 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(7070007)(98901004); DIR:OUT; SFP:1901; SCL:1; SRVR:HE1EUR02HT118; H:AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 358c21a8-6a3f-4d0d-8ad0-08d4776f045d x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(201702061074)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031322274)(1601125374)(1603101448)(1701031045); SRVR:HE1EUR02HT118; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(444000031); SRVR:HE1EUR02HT118; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:HE1EUR02HT118; x-forefront-prvs: 02622CEF0A spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_AM4PR0401MB2241D42F2FDC359193FD6B80BD340AM4PR0401MB2241_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Mar 2017 13:16:46.2755 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1EUR02HT118 Archived-At: Subject: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:16:52 -0000 --_000_AM4PR0401MB2241D42F2FDC359193FD6B80BD340AM4PR0401MB2241_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, Let's continue the IPv10 I-D discussion here as there was no opportunity to= discuss it at the IETF 98 as it was clear in front of all of you that ther= e were technical issues related to remote participation. I think all of you now know about IPv10 and what is the problem and how IPv= 10 can solve it and how it can be deployed in a short time. You can ask any question and I'll do my best to give you answers to make it= clear for everyone so the IPv10 I-D can go forward through the IETF standa= rdization process and be published. All of you know that the migration process to IPv6 took longer than we expe= cted and we shouldn't keep waiting more than that after the depletion of th= e IPv4 address space. If there is a better solution for this problem I can participate freely on = its discussion. Best regards, Khaled Omar --_000_AM4PR0401MB2241D42F2FDC359193FD6B80BD340AM4PR0401MB2241_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello,

 

Let’s continue the IPv10 I-D discussion here a= s there was no opportunity to discuss it at the IETF 98 as it was clear in = front of all of you that there were technical issues related to remote part= icipation.

 

I think all of you now know about IPv10 and what is = the problem and how IPv10 can solve it and how it can be deployed in a shor= t time.

 

You can ask any question and I’ll do my best t= o give you answers to make it clear for everyone so the IPv10 I-D can go fo= rward through the IETF standardization process and be published.=

 

All of you know that the migration process to IPv6 t= ook longer than we expected and we shouldn’t keep waiting more than t= hat after the depletion of the IPv4 address space.

 

If there is a better solution for this problem I can= participate freely on its discussion.

 

Best regards,

 

Khaled Omar  

 

 

--_000_AM4PR0401MB2241D42F2FDC359193FD6B80BD340AM4PR0401MB2241_-- From nobody Thu Mar 30 07:21:51 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10D02126C26 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 07:21:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5iWPqjpcMr4x for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 07:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR01-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092064049.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.64.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CEC421293DA for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 07:21:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=/bM3nF4EvArp0eyAQsUnh0I5JZ/C7Y04flG3yhlSgz0=; b=ASy+hJtEJv18NFU0NQrVkE16YDNog0gHWF9xYdnLLOHL63AwFG3jktyC8yNGlbYgqbVIyczDo28iVgWwMphxr59v9p8CLiIoAhMxCHwjLJX5w9SkzjqR8AU6HsePnZljAs8NDi5QOp2dP+96Wne7m7EicBid82t3p4Q0gFfJm0PZoJegqwFy+rOHFQ1KPsGuAnXWCLFIiIuCvi2mNo5VUiydtptYp3eXBFyMogkPU0O0fINN5yFEJTgzSGcO0g0YmJd2PT6Sp250SHjTb+ZJeYB/Tr94YYHwUEEAQl1Fs4qzgZ8t7zzL5xQRGrnv7+BrOb9wQ12kcztlO2qHpsNYag== Received: from DB5EUR01FT056.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.4.54) by DB5EUR01HT200.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.5.40) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.977.7; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:21:46 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.4.53) by DB5EUR01FT056.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.5.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.1005.5 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:21:45 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) by AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) with mapi id 15.01.0991.022; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:21:45 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: "int-area@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. Thread-Index: AdKpViCv4ucVibQQSyGDqyi2P9NswAACadQA Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:21:45 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:A7F055E34AC329077B670FC9A4E2ABBEE11E675FBDAE9101E4CCB8E8B036B9F8; UpperCasedChecksum:CD5EB817F5A5CBF84FC29D454E4C3FD8902CCD73C9220C0C46B67F504AADC24D; SizeAsReceived:8036; Count:40 x-tmn: [eIrJtBTBXkQX+YFYvzcdswlT9XRkA3rH] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DB5EUR01HT200; 5:YfG0wFoJCnwU1Ilv24E+5c0Jhe7aWH2W/zQ6O88b3l3+rH5sHsDSaSW/j04WJqPQSBhJOJ62sAT9BdmkvHuNzg6RMPHLImWm7za+GUlQR6sLuur2BuuirYuiVGMOYtjKAupJIRuWVcmjPcMrnriDlA==; 24:/DR9r83CXues8actki/IGgWpLjtJkK+mOiIfu9VCdIDhYnYgwIR7eSysF3B/DBhEttXtWzDh5ueinpJfa2sAE4Y7d8sw6MMkSh6wRmXEv/o=; 7:7d9Nl7WAHBWWk4h8YPCqDhBYTC+BkENTQvM++ASMg0bghTBQl4BHM6kQ3GC+/9MVEzFZeCj7vurMt8fXRBrdwI6oqBpgxDYhrYJkzjYWAVJT6GetaKnq8C9zfgoONDaH00d+GGw0KTZytn7IUdt+XHYvUFxpYZrkRp3B7zRK/NkMIN5CNMqzhDOQ66nC8MVPwax1Wze70k65myk81CAczwJxQVOhVYwQuq5QoCAW24ynm96jTOmftBnRftjt3Y0gay1tYMj18wexlPVFDdMMLtXdEZrPbc1gUrHBpfQSCEfIPJQVNAjsg7aD89iVaAQk x-incomingheadercount: 40 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(7070007)(98901004); DIR:OUT; SFP:1901; SCL:1; SRVR:DB5EUR01HT200; H:AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: fbd4c66c-fed4-4eaa-d050-08d47778185e x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(201702061074)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031322274)(1603101448)(1601125374)(1701031045); SRVR:DB5EUR01HT200; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(444000031); SRVR:DB5EUR01HT200; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:DB5EUR01HT200; x-forefront-prvs: 02622CEF0A spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_AM4PR0401MB22416ED9E2A95028C76D4896BD340AM4PR0401MB2241_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Mar 2017 14:21:45.4349 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB5EUR01HT200 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:21:50 -0000 --_000_AM4PR0401MB22416ED9E2A95028C76D4896BD340AM4PR0401MB2241_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I think time is an important factor in this discussion, we shouldn't wait u= ntil we find new InterNet clients don't have access to the whole internet o= r at least a limited access. I encourage all of you to participate with your expertise to make the best = final version. You can find all details inserted within the IPv10 I-D and the presentation= slides and make a decision regarding this discussion. I cannot recognize whom are the destination audience but I'm sure all membe= rs within the Int-Area can participate and make a decision to make the Inte= rnet works better. Best regards, Khaled Omar From: Khaled Omar Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 3:17 PM To: 'int-area@ietf.org' Cc: 'Juan Carlos Zuniga'; 'Wassim Haddad'; 'Suresh Krishnan' Subject: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. Hello, Let's continue the IPv10 I-D discussion here as there was no opportunity to= discuss it at the IETF 98 as it was clear in front of all of you that ther= e were technical issues related to remote participation. I think all of you now know about IPv10 and what is the problem and how IPv= 10 can solve it and how it can be deployed in a short time. You can ask any question and I'll do my best to give you answers to make it= clear for everyone so the IPv10 I-D can go forward through the IETF standa= rdization process and be published. All of you know that the migration process to IPv6 took longer than we expe= cted and we shouldn't keep waiting more than that after the depletion of th= e IPv4 address space. If there is a better solution for this problem I can participate freely on = its discussion. Best regards, Khaled Omar --_000_AM4PR0401MB22416ED9E2A95028C76D4896BD340AM4PR0401MB2241_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,<= /p>

 

I think time is an imp= ortant factor in this discussion, we shouldn’t wait until we find new= InterNet clients don’t have access to the whole internet or at least= a limited access.

 

I encourage all of you= to participate with your expertise to make the best final version.

 

You can find all detai= ls inserted within the IPv10 I-D and the presentation slides and make a dec= ision regarding this discussion.

 

I cannot recognize who= m are the destination audience but I’m sure all members within the In= t-Area can participate and make a decision to make the Internet works bette= r.

 

Best regards,

 

Khaled Omar=

 

 

From: Khaled Omar
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 3:17 PM
To: 'int-area@ietf.org'
Cc: 'Juan Carlos Zuniga'; 'Wassim Haddad'; 'Suresh Krishnan'
Subject: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion.

 

Hello,

 

Let’s continue the IPv10 I-D discussion here a= s there was no opportunity to discuss it at the IETF 98 as it was clear in = front of all of you that there were technical issues related to remote part= icipation.

 

I think all of you now know about IPv10 and what is = the problem and how IPv10 can solve it and how it can be deployed in a shor= t time.

 

You can ask any question and I’ll do my best t= o give you answers to make it clear for everyone so the IPv10 I-D can go fo= rward through the IETF standardization process and be published.=

 

All of you know that the migration process to IPv6 t= ook longer than we expected and we shouldn’t keep waiting more than t= hat after the depletion of the IPv4 address space.

 

If there is a better solution for this problem I can= participate freely on its discussion.

 

Best regards,

 

Khaled Omar  

 

 

--_000_AM4PR0401MB22416ED9E2A95028C76D4896BD340AM4PR0401MB2241_-- From nobody Thu Mar 30 08:03:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5711E1296AD for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:03:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f65pbv0D8Mjl for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:03:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de (iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de [141.3.10.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2F6B129685 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:02:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i72vorta.tm.uni-karlsruhe.de ([141.3.71.26] helo=i72vorta.tm.kit.edu) by iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de with esmtp port 25 iface 141.3.10.81 id 1ctbbF-0003zy-T3; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 17:02:57 +0200 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (ip6-localhost [IPv6:::1]) by i72vorta.tm.kit.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7295B003E4; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 17:02:57 +0200 (CEST) To: Khaled Omar , "int-area@ietf.org" References: From: "Bless, Roland (TM)" Organization: Institute of Telematics, Karlsruhe Institute of Technology Message-ID: <9c0d9f36-7a07-f9a0-c8b9-75ea5bcb7cf2@kit.edu> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 17:02:57 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ATIS-AV: ClamAV (iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de) X-ATIS-Timestamp: iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de 1490886177. Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:03:04 -0000 Dear Omar, Am 30.03.2017 um 15:16 schrieb Khaled Omar: > I think all of you now know about IPv10 and what is the problem and how > IPv10 can solve it and how it can be deployed in a short time. - Your IPv10 proposal doesn't solve the IPv6 deployment problems, you basically get an additional IPv10 deployment problem. - IPv10 doesn't allow an IPv6-only host to communicate to an IPv4-only host and vice versa as stated in the I-D. Hint: an IPv4-only host has got no idea what an IPv6 address is, let alone an "IPv10 address". - As others already pointed out: the proposal is technically flawed and does not work. > You can ask any question and I’ll do my best to give you answers to make > it clear for everyone so the IPv10 I-D can go forward through the IETF > standardization process and be published. Repeating this over and over again does not work. IMHO you only can move forward with a _technically sound_ proposal, otherwise many people will regard it as waste of time. > If there is a better solution for this problem I can participate freely > on its discussion. There are various WGs in the IETF that try to work towards better solutions. You may not like them, but they are at least rough community consensus. Best, Roland From nobody Thu Mar 30 08:39:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CB76128BE1 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:39:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.147 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.147 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2JGpBptGtO9t for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:39:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR01-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092066081.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.66.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22603129512 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:39:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=55l4/v8rvnGGZrqyWWnE+ELZxE4uz1tYs8UJO/sITEs=; b=BMohyhni56t/Znfdnvsj2yeFcU1suqIVox4HWjBo2wxhiZm1g6hsI4x1ZhBbbHxJB3THPcyObv/ocL0lfoCUoSaIARJunyzwGRk5AxUWpjwAh3l1AiSdRrFL8WlCTAd8XunQofIjuhrUB+QweCY0Esknj/z5sB4OhAunj4KRVuuFKYh33QiIw+jQoAAD+KOCxnKvImjq8INVZ1RPGgurxtxnSeyrwbvkBH+YOlnOyhdZwksg5Nh3/SabB/7iYL9pQWR9FwP5LAzC9lRpy9z5cOogHwJ+2dBHByjWlg8lNdNe3ECOWSiGSTLTIc45SjO2uDjdsqAimRteOfwl0G1yNw== Received: from DB5EUR01FT038.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.4.58) by DB5EUR01HT161.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.5.225) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.977.7; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:39:23 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.4.57) by DB5EUR01FT038.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.4.191) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.1005.5 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:39:22 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) by AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) with mapi id 15.01.0991.022; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:39:22 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: "Bless, Roland (TM)" CC: "int-area@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. Thread-Index: AdKpViCv4ucVibQQSyGDqyi2P9NswAAEJZeAAAAdAFAAARi1IA== Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:39:22 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9c0d9f36-7a07-f9a0-c8b9-75ea5bcb7cf2@kit.edu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: kit.edu; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;kit.edu; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:B5E7E52105FE660CEEDCF25B6570518EE76AAC230FA28176C35CB69706A465C1; UpperCasedChecksum:D1EA7220629EC82806561FBA344C343A4E6DDE169092C68E9C59C0E158C2F969; SizeAsReceived:8131; Count:41 x-tmn: [TVJyxLnqC1qrNpSUAi6jLQt5zpBlstfh] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DB5EUR01HT161; 5:U8AZgl7My//lA2wiBXKif4djp+vHCB3AX/mJLgWcXm7QiGobj0s2eJr+cFUbq3BVXAkRn6aKgl0PqnyhGmhOiByPjv6uvgoEXlW2jcCyBdLvHRpVXLaGzxjOGILOFdUok4cLlkzVu5+IVFpjT6Ca1g==; 24:fMqWNiibn4wtT4Icoj5cx3M2puFnKhW9j9aYxnjtEgkuNmuY2ZJEZZBuxSvWdfSEDbWSfBesi9pmd0NVDQdGMk7/jOGFJn0ez3fFio4c6rE=; 7:NxEDuZkooECUlkt6aemIWnB8XvupdjXi2FQXR5WMPQA3a5VEgfg3SX6NsEYvMuIZpIdTsxOsO+RrTplwQEAGbRJlKQe6r5iGM3+j/cNJ2mtPaWvjstR1QLVo4xZkPIWRtzh6L0SexI5KMRIA5YbjhpSWUFB7PcqU9FlDHl3NMP/suMeRvlKGcW2B064J9F5el+leIWGfqYKq/0ktlTOlxdC77TtTEqlhE3SMNiUEY22SZgmwa4/2qX96xzqObb77Zg39WjbExqXbUNXp+ivPC4lm4MjvM8k2YXmmNfqaLsuUxFKR0LPYr9gmlx6yoCYE x-incomingheadercount: 41 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(7070007)(98901004); DIR:OUT; SFP:1901; SCL:1; SRVR:DB5EUR01HT161; H:AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 6c4abc16-fb6a-410e-bdec-08d47782f045 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(201702061074)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031322274)(1603101448)(1601125374)(1701031045); SRVR:DB5EUR01HT161; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(444000031); SRVR:DB5EUR01HT161; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:DB5EUR01HT161; x-forefront-prvs: 02622CEF0A spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Mar 2017 15:39:22.3906 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB5EUR01HT161 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:39:27 -0000 I forgot to tell you that I was waiting for a replacement solution for 3 ye= ars but after a short time I found IPv10 is the best. Best Regards, -----Original Message----- From: Khaled Omar=20 Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 5:26 PM To: 'Bless, Roland (TM)' Subject: RE: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. Hi Roland, This way too is not working, keeping repeating same answers to the same que= stions is ridiculous. > Your IPv10 proposal doesn't solve the IPv6 deployment problems, you basically get an additional IPv10 deployment problem. IPv10 does not depends on clients (ISPs or Enterprises) like IPv6 migration= process, it depends on software modification on all hosts' OSs and routers= ' OSs to be able to encapsulate both IP version on the same IP header. > IPv10 doesn't allow an IPv6-only host to communicate to an IPv4-only host and vice versa as stated in the I-D. Hint: an IPv4-only host has got no idea what an IPv6 address is, let alone an "IPv10 address". Think about a host treats a different version destination as a host in a di= fferent subnet, it will send the packet to the gateway, the gateway (router= ) will check the destination packet, and based on its version (whether it i= s an IPv4 packet or and IPv6 packet) it will checks its IP routing table (w= hether the IPv4 routing or the IPv6 routing table respectively) to make a r= outing decision, and each router on the road to the destination will do the= same till reaching the destination.=20 > As others already pointed out: the proposal is technically flawed and does not work. Please speak with your own tongue, others who stated that had no full infor= mation about how IPv10 works, later they believed it is the best solution f= or IPv4 and IPv6 coexistence until reaching a full migration to IPv6. > Repeating this over and over again does not work. IMHO you only can move = forward with a _technically sound_ proposal, otherwise many people will reg= ard it as waste of time. Simply, if IPv10 is not of your interest, peacefully don't participate in t= he discussion, as I stated on my proposal, the internet will be divided int= o two divisions, and that will not be good for all of us when some new user= s will be assigned (or already assigned) IPv6 only addresses and has no acc= ess to all internet resources or a limited access(Google and Facebook). > There are various WGs in the IETF that try to work towards better solutio= ns. You may not like them, but they are at least rough community consensus. Science doesn't understand consensus, science understands ideas, better ide= as and the best idea, that can technically deployed easily and in a short t= ime, I can make a solution like IPv6 and think about forcing people to migr= ate, but this will not work practically in a short time, and this is what w= e are experiencing, also, thinking about a solution that requires giving tr= aining everywhere to let people deploy it is not a good solution, because s= till depends on clients (users), but to make a solution that depends on a f= ew number of companies developing networking OSs and can be deployed in a s= hort time with no interventions of a helping technology (like protocol tran= slation or asking DNS for more efforts). Eventually, IMHO, you will never reach a full consensus by all IETF members= , so it is the time for the responsible ADs and Chairs with some help from = interested participants to make a good impact for all. Best regards, Khaled Omar=20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Bless, Roland (TM) [mailto:roland.bless@kit.edu] Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 5:03 PM To: Khaled Omar; int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. Dear Omar, Am 30.03.2017 um 15:16 schrieb Khaled Omar: > I think all of you now know about IPv10 and what is the problem and=20 > how > IPv10 can solve it and how it can be deployed in a short time. - Your IPv10 proposal doesn't solve the IPv6 deployment problems, you basically get an additional IPv10 deployment problem. - IPv10 doesn't allow an IPv6-only host to communicate to an IPv4-only host and vice versa as stated in the I-D. Hint: an IPv4-only host has got no idea what an IPv6 address is, let alone an "IPv10 address". - As others already pointed out: the proposal is technically flawed and does not work. > You can ask any question and I'll do my best to give you answers to=20 > make it clear for everyone so the IPv10 I-D can go forward through the=20 > IETF standardization process and be published. Repeating this over and over again does not work. IMHO you only can move fo= rward with a _technically sound_ proposal, otherwise many people will regar= d it as waste of time. > If there is a better solution for this problem I can participate=20 > freely on its discussion. There are various WGs in the IETF that try to work towards better solutions= . You may not like them, but they are at least rough community consensus. Best, Roland From nobody Thu Mar 30 09:00:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C74B9129997; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:00:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TyqklnyipjFo; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:00:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR03-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092071054.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.71.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92353126C3D; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:00:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=K+zWGrxrtrcMksLKRYbFcS+2sJtQBBr7Z2gFkHeLPhs=; b=b+l5F4Qx5LsQ7mlmOROjxHkNk4OniDfKqxED1kD5itcEElgomdfxGCFoPKMe6GUjnngw+zTQsk5/CplQnJHqy581/SlxPkAFitiNaACmXFNSeJIrVYXLc/UGE4uXG3w0fNeugR6MW39hiLAZ96F7tfKIFMCBxQ0ECV773+9js1fAazaY4doCeSzOi+cfl3GdthnuYxI3F1cddyD3v4Wsknr0lmqL4MtkZbo/9Y9YI7ybqjN+nhsWJs+gQygjESC5hzWhzkv26BUmfg14y/SCOk3phdF2gtO447nSk/SYF2Q/JTlwmBgrExtuaeecQ+cnpnugHJYWMvHBLQbAGB1uYQ== Received: from DB5EUR03FT044.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.20.51) by DB5EUR03HT197.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.20.195) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.977.7; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:00:28 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.20.56) by DB5EUR03FT044.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.21.167) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.1005.5 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:00:28 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) by AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) with mapi id 15.01.0991.022; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:00:28 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: "int-area@ietf.org" CC: Suresh Krishnan , "intarea-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: RE: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. 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X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:00:33 -0000 --_000_AM4PR0401MB2241AE29866B92034C5D6943BD340AM4PR0401MB2241_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, This discussion and decisions shouldn't take a long time (but for sure no l= onger than the passed time), controlling an organized distribution of topic= s and giving each topic its time will be the best solution IMHO to let all = participate in all topics. Best Regards, --_000_AM4PR0401MB2241AE29866B92034C5D6943BD340AM4PR0401MB2241_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

This discussion and decisions shouldn’t take a= long time (but for sure no longer than the passed time), controlling an or= ganized distribution of topics and giving each topic its time will be the b= est solution IMHO to let all participate in all topics.

 

Best Regards,

--_000_AM4PR0401MB2241AE29866B92034C5D6943BD340AM4PR0401MB2241_-- From nobody Thu Mar 30 09:03:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AE82129631 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:03:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hoMqam61QD41 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:03:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.bortzmeyer.org (aetius.bortzmeyer.org [217.70.190.232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC835126C3D for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:03:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 0EE6B31C7D; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:03:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: by godin (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9F20DEC0B1C; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:01:29 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 11:01:29 -0500 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: "Bless, Roland (TM)" Cc: Khaled Omar , "int-area@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20170330160129.GA5508@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> References: <9c0d9f36-7a07-f9a0-c8b9-75ea5bcb7cf2@kit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9c0d9f36-7a07-f9a0-c8b9-75ea5bcb7cf2@kit.edu> X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Ubuntu 16.04 (xenial) X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:03:22 -0000 On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 05:02:57PM +0200, Bless, Roland (TM) wrote a message of 36 lines which said: > - IPv10 doesn't allow an IPv6-only host to communicate to an > IPv4-only host and vice versa as stated in the I-D. Hint: an > IPv4-only host has got no idea what an IPv6 address is, let alone > an "IPv10 address". Same issue with the routers in the path. IPv10 would require *all* of them to be upgraded for the new packet header format. > - As others already pointed out: Indeed, it has been said several times to the author but he keeps not listening. I wonder why there was a slot at the IETF meeting. From nobody Thu Mar 30 09:12:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92BD2129613 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:12:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nADl7LLddP9f for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 476291294C7 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.189] (cpe-172-250-240-132.socal.res.rr.com [172.250.240.132]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v2UGBw4P018713 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:11:59 -0700 (PDT) To: Stephane Bortzmeyer , "Bless, Roland (TM)" References: <9c0d9f36-7a07-f9a0-c8b9-75ea5bcb7cf2@kit.edu> <20170330160129.GA5508@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> Cc: "int-area@ietf.org" From: Joe Touch Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:11:56 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170330160129.GA5508@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------3464575F7A61B8ABBEE201D8" X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:12:21 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3464575F7A61B8ABBEE201D8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/30/2017 9:01 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: >> - As others already pointed out: > Indeed, it has been said several times to the author but he keeps not > listening. I wonder why there was a slot at the IETF meeting. The IETF is a place that lets a thousand flowers bloom, but has historically been less adept at pruning. A good garden requires both. IMO, that's a lesson for the evaluation of all proposals. Joe --------------3464575F7A61B8ABBEE201D8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



On 3/30/2017 9:01 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
- As others already pointed out:

Indeed, it has been said several times to the author but he keeps not
listening. I wonder why there was a slot at the IETF meeting.
The IETF is a place that lets a thousand flowers bloom, but has historically been less adept at pruning.

A good garden requires both. IMO, that's a lesson for the evaluation of all proposals.

Joe

--------------3464575F7A61B8ABBEE201D8-- From nobody Thu Mar 30 09:26:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63461129841 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:26:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y24hsHHldAWo for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.bortzmeyer.org (aetius.bortzmeyer.org [217.70.190.232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E7AE1297E1 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 226EF31C7D; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:26:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: by godin (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7D5AEEC0B1C; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:24:33 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 11:24:33 -0500 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Joe Touch Cc: int-area@ietf.org Message-ID: <20170330162433.GB6683@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> References: <9c0d9f36-7a07-f9a0-c8b9-75ea5bcb7cf2@kit.edu> <20170330160129.GA5508@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Ubuntu 16.04 (xenial) X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:26:33 -0000 On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 09:11:56AM -0700, Joe Touch wrote a message of 58 lines which said: > The IETF is a place that lets a thousand flowers bloom, but has > historically been less adept at pruning. > > A good garden requires both Yes, but there is a big assymetry: writing a good proposal is hard, and takes time, while writing stupid things can be done at high-rate. If we allow everything, we'll have more bad proposals than good. From nobody Thu Mar 30 09:29:52 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DC40129553 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:29:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.147 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.147 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TDRRaJ6G1oKj for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR01-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092065033.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.65.33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D9B41297AA for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:29:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=1jLJVPYyhRpbJrVmtWSkxtkKNCZ8adzO2nv1D/J2IHc=; b=CenLXwew9C0lFH2PclGaYHzYkoWAFAMXmMhT2nGEon60Fp6G/KiPQzzptJ/tMHo6xEQDfvmJ656Zw2HWJ4DsQaifgXltdEvjkFjladX1hfxqAIFH8LdnFswI+XGRaHLUK3hbebUeNSGW4buwn7FcQKPNEhzrU9j7uVyzBFu+Y38Tcamso2401ty82QKrk3wPzhsluh40g0tiMSFIHlwnZuHjjXSqdedJ6nUjlg/m+g+LP4L1mEpiARfFsHr+NLSse2J5GqLH0j0qDwbJBglAU258jq19haob+mCeJYt/fM021sykTOFTP6WZFxt6Tz4JxbjozCnCuOoaC4DU4letDQ== Received: from VE1EUR01FT026.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.2.52) by VE1EUR01HT123.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.3.90) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.977.7; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:29:43 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.2.58) by VE1EUR01FT026.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.2.212) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.1005.5 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:29:43 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) by AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) with mapi id 15.01.0991.022; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:29:43 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Stephane Bortzmeyer CC: "int-area@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. Thread-Index: AdKpViCv4ucVibQQSyGDqyi2P9NswAAEJZeAAAILVIAAANMQIA== Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:29:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9c0d9f36-7a07-f9a0-c8b9-75ea5bcb7cf2@kit.edu> <20170330160129.GA5508@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> In-Reply-To: <20170330160129.GA5508@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: nic.fr; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;nic.fr; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:6EC209B1CF05F7CD65C43307C2B4C93AE7ECC978A6B4329EFB99FF18F94F8463; UpperCasedChecksum:9F56FAA143A7671AF0BEDCF89128236AB7B17E65FF8E3740F7B17A44B0683D3C; SizeAsReceived:8230; Count:42 x-tmn: [RBNIdCHejIwUuPAtIIGyp0iW31tJ2UbF] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; VE1EUR01HT123; 5:uFPnEMG021dDemJ95dgcrT9Nt/RavTFtWSLF4Z/AoMqqC/1TrcSP+FLpkEiknaz0RZoBr8TsdugL0xQMdFczF+7Y0DB+/Cpwn5csHRT0ciSFKWGaPhxVe4ThW9TUecJrIMdmfrXs3Bznv28eQKzjYg==; 24:OyH6SsaNhUo4u5kMgYQGkyzuE3P/IvKvkybazS0WhUFo6djDlz6c6SyEyhJvCJniGotaEluH4m4wZ8sfNCzdQMe3WWxiGKmwWqGTiJeyp8c=; 7:GJjdChfh3nZ3N3ie71HJuwzmn4RXD6JZazRlmQiP2XiX4lY7xZcLNh4wOuSIeDGux9Vni7eqytRnvxbLuWC6FHq8d1aWAwGoCi/OyNHbpaDi50YqIZvu+0/ogR7bf+hC1hYCjDTXyH18hiy0QGg14MNMGdLyCXgqfqc+Upqt5JiuumyCdZAQd+jzrJoNSxnXUiAzT2NDi5QKi902i61U9iGssiaaok0rGqe2l6NECeZbkJuvD2+3EwsHSIIUM0r9IVA43XgcT8dD/fRPh3MfE362mAG8P63S0WlVFA977opjM/pY+nO0GT1PpCdK2O2M x-incomingheadercount: 42 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(7070007)(98901004); DIR:OUT; SFP:1901; SCL:1; SRVR:VE1EUR01HT123; H:AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 4e428071-7dfd-4a28-ad0a-08d47789f8e0 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(201702061074)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031322274)(1603101448)(1601125374)(1701031045); SRVR:VE1EUR01HT123; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(444000031); SRVR:VE1EUR01HT123; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:VE1EUR01HT123; x-forefront-prvs: 02622CEF0A spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Mar 2017 16:29:43.5391 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VE1EUR01HT123 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:29:51 -0000 > Same issue with the routers in the path. IPv10 would require *all* of them to be upgraded for the new packet header format. What will happen with one router from a specific company will happen with a= ll routers from the same vendors, inserting updates is not that hard, but t= he case is will they work or not, and my idea works fine but the IETF needs= to make up official decisions before the explosion of the Internet :-) the= reason why is to get out from an I-D to another one and make a progress. Best, Khaled Omar -----Original Message----- From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 6:01 PM To: Bless, Roland (TM) Cc: Khaled Omar; int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 05:02:57PM +0200, Bless, Roland (TM) wrote=20 a message of 36 lines which said: > - IPv10 doesn't allow an IPv6-only host to communicate to an > IPv4-only host and vice versa as stated in the I-D. Hint: an > IPv4-only host has got no idea what an IPv6 address is, let alone > an "IPv10 address". Same issue with the routers in the path. IPv10 would require *all* of them to be upgraded for the new packet header format.=20 > - As others already pointed out: Indeed, it has been said several times to the author but he keeps not listening. I wonder why there was a slot at the IETF meeting. From nobody Thu Mar 30 09:33:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 980AC129857 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.147 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.147 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JEMjDxXnBw_e for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:33:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR01-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092065055.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.65.55]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB07E1297AA for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:33:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=jasgwbyT1LJXtIU3Khhf/pEcozIbKvsLqPwfXaYB42s=; b=i+PBovy4zFPHD21he6y8D1s6JV5g62Rw5TuViWoJxmP1mso8PO5DOU95SrsM5mLiZrjH1yAjnaM+alXxVpjq0wRQpuEsbXQ3DsUQSJh1JfsSB34ovDuG9TRxgm4yryEKIuEi1GbaKb1QjC7sZtECZBW54T24QeDxGbAUSZtYolUTAMlcZqIX6AMj+VpLHR6B6ecCa4O/4kKk1ZEKmm1RB1SuWF4VIBidH/VN6iHd8uq6JhE+CjQJVdkMWGzGcCO3YidcMjvVEjqlwBZAi1QBznZFsLLd41CDctpdHe4kbaKg6GiW4vqrLdcWi1L2h50YwVGG5LnD5UBWlT/eskvIpQ== Received: from HE1EUR01FT060.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.0.52) by HE1EUR01HT137.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.1.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.977.7; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:33:15 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.0.59) by HE1EUR01FT060.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.0.249) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.1005.5 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:33:15 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) by AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) with mapi id 15.01.0991.022; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:33:14 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Stephane Bortzmeyer CC: "int-area@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. Thread-Index: AdKpViCv4ucVibQQSyGDqyi2P9NswAAEJZeAAAILVIAAABzWEAAAoNsAAABPMhA= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:33:14 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9c0d9f36-7a07-f9a0-c8b9-75ea5bcb7cf2@kit.edu> <20170330160129.GA5508@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <20170330162242.GA6683@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> In-Reply-To: <20170330162242.GA6683@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: nic.fr; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;nic.fr; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:87EABFD333816A08ECFA98BCB03CD53346B0602D52DC2D6D2CE52051B22F6E20; UpperCasedChecksum:D68D4A677DE5A84FEC8080E170925F58BED4D5DC17908F0F5094889CCDE4E3DB; SizeAsReceived:8389; Count:42 x-tmn: [pMpRiekPoDaEJTzJ1oSqO4PboVp+muf6] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; HE1EUR01HT137; 5:DD5l0FzLi0iiCPlT1UpuNmQkX0Gzlnx4CZQBMr2uTxWI+zWyU5A7Yu518j1kRKI3VNI81/7ULS7Vyt8muY14bkSHEQZRnF33HonW/h7ee6ZTlBi33YXyttvijkN739ybDxBD6oN+MehmqQjBs4lmng==; 24:P7WEzOhgVFkAoA7NbgZfp8ujkuvfQ/R+hZqyyL0vaDUUgo/VuR7vUtRKokpBSMhygCo3WMndrnR6/k/yRS4xOiItLT1hiUvcQE6jIhtVI8g=; 7:7UXXiG2VNFnb/iljMLZwU8i9ZdpX5FRbNW2R+igWuUh43OJ2LJcUpx2iMU0L7YEot2X4nxIf6j4GDDBesmd9Jd2jKAsy4wKrtWyZE2sgQQh3+WAw5mU1N2T95Lr/YVX0vZ52AX7IGTqriE9jL0LvG2pdhoj89NOOrjD+lx5notRAy/XjoboCsm6G+tv95tD5Bmwk3kOCA2zp83nSuXTH6NvRyoBow+XvHFFjP6tGE6ufkWN6Glia7iVxsTkv+HD1B8qmpdT7hWpVXPBiajavn6XHpTX37+Tt59ZZwLq26PSmmuZ6svDCAWqpEuAOmIHI x-incomingheadercount: 42 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(7070007)(98901004); DIR:OUT; SFP:1901; SCL:1; SRVR:HE1EUR01HT137; H:AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 36abcbd5-0e80-4fbc-43b7-08d4778a76d5 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(201702061074)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031322274)(1603101448)(1601125374)(1701031045); SRVR:HE1EUR01HT137; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(444000031); SRVR:HE1EUR01HT137; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:HE1EUR01HT137; x-forefront-prvs: 02622CEF0A spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Mar 2017 16:33:14.7951 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1EUR01HT137 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:33:20 -0000 > I don't see the point of discussing privately with you, I already told yo= u you're just a waste of time. Either post your messages to the IETF mailin= g list, or abstain. Come on guys, if you think it is out of your interest, SIMPLY do not reply = and show your interest, instead of using such a disrespectful words. -----Original Message----- From: Stephane Bortzmeyer [mailto:bortzmeyer@nic.fr]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 6:23 PM To: Khaled Omar Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer Subject: Re: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 04:07:45PM +0000, Khaled Omar wrote a message of 33 lines which said: > True, all routers in the path are products of a little number of=20 > networking companies, meaning their networking OSs can be upgraded=20 > simply based on the number of people working on every AS. I don't see the point of discussing privately with you, I already told you = you're just a waste of time. Either post your messages to the IETF mailing = list, or abstain. From nobody Thu Mar 30 09:58:31 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB3FE129810 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:58:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.136 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.136 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3kcwFh8fAzsy for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR01-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092065089.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.65.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCF2B1299BD for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:58:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=8r73fjKLOdMonnnIG5b8kkN9bMYEOtvG/jUDm144Ghs=; b=C6o0cbGlw7NfTDYO3EaSPG8uF7+NbFmukc4kWOY/pxmoubKjZv2rtzv6Lve2UynNb6qNJRa9LNTlefgdENnRlNlbhZJ4FwtUnUah0OlSKNPiw//sDq3ou6cbp2NGkP7+AMKaR4w5EqzzaiY/SzkloMhekAw0GwcUlKaVg8q9FBdBc7Cc0e/39LU1idQoPf++4DfTgZsP+BJ0QZX8ooJPUxkfMPpYHvlXqzvv1kwmxXevbt4c0b3HvlYXHwRdtIBOP3eKPxa6H2HwsDO8VSZttzGZGR1Akxyk0ANgBLLvIVRX9Jz76+H9oowr5kIvlaSGJf0XAi8W+SzuiM3bJ97KHA== Received: from DB5EUR01FT031.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.4.53) by DB5EUR01HT206.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.5.246) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.977.7; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:58:25 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.4.55) by DB5EUR01FT031.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.4.253) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.1005.5 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:58:25 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) by AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) with mapi id 15.01.0991.022; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:58:25 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Joe Touch CC: "int-area@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. Thread-Index: AdKpViCv4ucVibQQSyGDqyi2P9NswAAEJZeAAAILVIAAAF1uAAABjubg Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:58:24 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9c0d9f36-7a07-f9a0-c8b9-75ea5bcb7cf2@kit.edu> <20170330160129.GA5508@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: isi.edu; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;isi.edu; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:3B147D9D72C6901926930BD2A5AAF129E745FF59CB520D6561C31DA00AA923AC; UpperCasedChecksum:CBA3C6BBF56DBF8C0C000612611AB36BA455164B5FD43909E3D4526B94E53275; SizeAsReceived:8274; Count:42 x-tmn: [AJsdlnRdtAAclmmTS5PqjRiFBdLAXo+t] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DB5EUR01HT206; 5:2Aiz4wy3t8KlR8QtVZkspliWedlfHIfk/yZBLz+qwvR0sEddcGKOdk4yFHXcYw5BNrN9IgSaOtFTWf5YLr7MuzucAE2ncAmYClDXOPy28O/INH9doAIE1zV5RQwnyIPz7pyscN41dDCPRMxAoXBAaA==; 24:tuiewatB8uw1No2PkFmTrJcbgT7viDeSNLBLMmJB4QxGjNv3AUgeMTMhmrBMIrDMf7YWC+fWL71Jk/PNYZHFMjTjhXd1+DXpObE698rdKbw=; 7:3hp4ujvScPZCkp+T2HfnA1yW8/AQ7d3z/uNE9bJxzw29kZaBwMKz41Z9JtXKMTo+gAKmPklDrvW0TQqUa/+pWaqV7ZYtIXlkrDflYAy3jpVO9yXe5KENFqm9G/tnVtGEBoUGX9sk+BCyDDl5dg5nHinbTmkh7MjEiZk/L3K53cl6P99r+X6j1+jPbwezEPILfcqAzF4MXmQOY0AVbQ8gxJsj/0sIx79et2ZPWxEDpTkVoYqpJZnB/gNbcPhZNdwaArqgJOPMdSexG1qk8hxByo4/a53VwaYhX7ZW9Y3gMRwtmQcKjsuLKiJkw8L4nBTe x-incomingheadercount: 42 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(7070007)(98901004); DIR:OUT; SFP:1901; SCL:1; SRVR:DB5EUR01HT206; H:AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 07d85004-d58a-4f4e-eff3-08d4778dfb06 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(201702061074)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031322274)(1603101448)(1601125374)(1701031045); SRVR:DB5EUR01HT206; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(444000031); SRVR:DB5EUR01HT206; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:DB5EUR01HT206; x-forefront-prvs: 02622CEF0A spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_AM4PR0401MB2241C4028D3990E8BD58BD81BD340AM4PR0401MB2241_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Mar 2017 16:58:25.0031 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB5EUR01HT206 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:58:30 -0000 --_000_AM4PR0401MB2241C4028D3990E8BD58BD81BD340AM4PR0401MB2241_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Int-area [mailto:int-area-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joe Touch Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 6:12 PM To: Stephane Bortzmeyer; Bless, Roland (TM) Cc: int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. >Indeed, it has been said several times to the author but he keeps not listening. I wonder why there was a slot at the IETF meeting. Maybe the IETF should fix that or that will be a waste of time for all. On 3/30/2017 9:01 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: - As others already pointed out: Indeed, it has been said several times to the author but he keeps not listening. I wonder why there was a slot at the IETF meeting. The IETF is a place that lets a thousand flowers bloom, but has historicall= y been less adept at pruning. A good garden requires both. IMO, that's a lesson for the evaluation of all= proposals. Joe --_000_AM4PR0401MB2241C4028D3990E8BD58BD81BD340AM4PR0401MB2241_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

From: Int-area [mailto:int-area-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joe Touch
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 6:12 PM
To: Stephane Bortzmeyer; Bless, Roland (TM)
Cc: int-area@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion.<= /span>

 

>Indeed, it has been said several times to the author but he keeps =
not
listening. I wonder why there was a slot at the IETF meeting.
 
Maybe the IETF should fix that or that will=
 be a waste of time for all.

 

On 3/30/2017 9:01 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:

- As others already pointed out:
Indeed, it has been said several times to the author but he keeps not<=
o:p>
listening. I wonder why there was a slot at the IETF meeting.

The IETF is a place t= hat lets a thousand flowers bloom, but has historically been less adept at = pruning.

A good garden requires both. IMO, that's a lesson for the evaluation of all= proposals.

Joe

--_000_AM4PR0401MB2241C4028D3990E8BD58BD81BD340AM4PR0401MB2241_-- From nobody Thu Mar 30 10:12:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B1C01299D5 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:12:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29EUDOxtOH9l for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x233.google.com (mail-wr0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97FFF1299D4 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x233.google.com with SMTP id l43so70868459wre.1 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:12:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bFfRwnbpUfbXPVqkVwo/xCEsQiGs5SbGu2QhiKD4CaI=; b=A02U80s9jkDyNzCnuSAwUfP1w/XKAnOIHO9DGKxU6RRNP+FEfKNmf/aUcRm1eM3/pU qq11Obx25eI2WtWihy9RHkfhKiJG6cG0vrWkQSt9znSB+p0fHz7uxC4lbEBVQNv/S3Hp TeHSp/7AT/hIewd7cK0vKE3UdHTmTK7WhKK/HuqS9RzDD8J49r9qQEgO0TINMCiV75Ql CxdE8CmGYEuQGaPwMSG/1HeU4gD/iZ+zk6E3TSTQNqTP2huOS8G+IXvLxVb/e0MZurYM ++f8VImJ3Voo1gtpKd7BRwQczUGb1mXy/hFrOfVIIl49pYNLYSAdue1a54LYG+RLIgGW lBrQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bFfRwnbpUfbXPVqkVwo/xCEsQiGs5SbGu2QhiKD4CaI=; b=FXjsXqQm0EKoo4pqNNGa6s6edBPDoEEWU8gHuaD/pxYBu6aWWP0OHvJ787IPzLh3Ez ISqUadm6+h9VRD+Jv1OkcVmoDn+lWghNGBz2kI32ftSY7AVk2RbPADWtE/1ofnShSgVx e53ZDtO87SCui34VRG28AsEcjfyID1Fqa/d9Z6rHu2bHjjNZ1Gol+fn94Qf/pBASqVeA am7WMovzmSNj8Ccgzkvtk4WjafkRSgMOTeVGWUFyw8hGfgMoQpy2r2G01XZLlqcv5wZQ 9KyEx4dUB1bMh8iO2iTbZok/sgVorHZMeUoYyxa9N7pewlYUh1EVwkHnO2wu51bHm1el IA8A== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2UAp73GhFSCYaifJIp/g0TM+rVgCRB2+vY6lbOx82SuX0JduDGvcCS1Xp0wHLhUw== X-Received: by 10.28.7.144 with SMTP id 138mr1400729wmh.125.1490893929072; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.191.106] ([80.69.10.100]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 82sm2873371wmg.0.2017.03.30.10.12.07 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:12:08 -0700 (PDT) To: Khaled Omar References: <9c0d9f36-7a07-f9a0-c8b9-75ea5bcb7cf2@kit.edu> <20170330160129.GA5508@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> Cc: int-area@ietf.org From: Ignas Bagdonas Message-ID: <0f6a288c-69e7-c433-c76a-8d5591bb9cf3@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:12:05 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 17:12:14 -0000 On 30/03/2017 17:29, Khaled Omar wrote: >> Same issue with the routers in the path. IPv10 would require *all* of > them to be upgraded for the new packet header format. > > What will happen with one router from a specific company will happen with all routers from the same vendors, inserting updates is not that hard, Khaled, Please try to view your proposal from the operational side too. Designing a protocol wire representation and implementing that for some platform is quite trivial compared to the changes that are needed for the network support systems, the effort required for validation of that new functionality before the deployment, and the feasibility of doing the actual flag day deployment. For any practically sized operator that would be an exercise of years with associated costs of very substantial nature. Please make yourself more familiar with network operational realities. Ignas From nobody Thu Mar 30 10:16:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2089E129851 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:16:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.903 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.903 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LDbjJH8Ygyyr for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linfre.de (linfre.de [83.151.26.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3AE2C129450 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linne.localnet (91.97.107.199) by linfreserv (Axigen) with (ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted) ESMTPSA id 0C67B3; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 19:16:10 +0200 From: Karsten Thomann To: int-area@ietf.org Message-ID: <1495230.RzaN2r7Iql@linne> User-Agent: KMail/4.13.0.22 (Windows/6.1; KDE/4.14.3; i686; git-c97962a; 2016-07-14) In-Reply-To: References: <20170330160129.GA5508@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Received-SPF: none (linne.localnet: linne.localnet does not designate permitted sender hosts) client-ip=91.97.107.199; helo=linne.localnet; mechanism=default; identity=helo; receiver=linfreserv; X-AXIGEN-SPF-Result: No records X-AXIGEN-DK-Result: No records DomainKey-Status: no signature Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 17:16:15 -0000 Am Donnerstag, 30. M=E4rz 2017, 16:29:43 schrieb Khaled Omar: > > Same issue with the routers in the path. IPv10 would require *all* = of >=20 > them to be upgraded for the new packet header format. >=20 > What will happen with one router from a specific company will happen = with > all routers from the same vendors, inserting updates is not that hard= ,... Just a small comment, as I don't like this discussion, too. That "is not hard" might be true for the installation at home users and= small=20 businesses, but exactly the opposite of "not hard" at every other locat= ion. If you can convince the vendors to redesign their whole hardware design= s to=20 support a new protocol in the forwarding plane to get a acceptable forw= arding=20 rate AND the ISP's/MSP's to buy new hardware for many $$$, we can start= =20 discussing again, but in the meanwhile no one wants to support a third=20= protocol. 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Thread-Index: AdKpViCv4ucVibQQSyGDqyi2P9NswAAEJZeAAAILVIAAANMQIAAByRuAAAAeprA= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 17:19:48 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20170330160129.GA5508@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <1495230.RzaN2r7Iql@linne> In-Reply-To: <1495230.RzaN2r7Iql@linne> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: linfre.de; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;linfre.de; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:B1D02AE5BA6FF8FB51107E579A80A402511243C4F52458392005AD7D7E010356; UpperCasedChecksum:1A5DD776158BE5A735D9EFF87FA308A5B448DAC08EEE8E468961C6D93ACB5E74; SizeAsReceived:8291; Count:42 x-tmn: [oFhHSh388LYrmUIadSUbw1xZUPHXdtFh] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; AM5EUR02HT127; 5:jK7crwFU7nonqbF19zsAF9Lj8DlTR800sjVKnLdOzSQPGBUE0IzT4nZK3W9WKegD3amdLdxrMUDOYbacIaAuV48oz4p6FkZwBOtYm1A5JAkGYG+YHlDdaiNfLJLngNprqmaf6qrbNQhIqc9D+wyyzg==; 24:HzZK0KzQ7O/MebJPQIKSPd/g3BETXuL9oe1fyGmN7wBmYR0kcwXlQT1Xm4qlN0jubMdfYY3/zNg3kKjEwg33DVaa2Chl/6rr/iOyhZ4pbxw=; 7:xrw3don5wc8/z5wm2na8EhDHO1leopqimZcR7DbaoWrXIAZpJw172N1ipXBMV/urv3e+KWmS+eFBHAa+I0tm3W6/Y2vlGj0J3eJDje87W0C91lg1kPKI3b+qqY2s0PrOFXWYAhM916XswicqwqDB65F5xhDcGPicvBc1aMDDiU1a5gliFdBt5blRanQ6DcRZAViAk+6aMdm5+/QMPJXH7JhKfnKbR46nDXDJA08hO1nvok86/z63qM31Z0yXIuhcFAK0M74GTEHRH7++TSj8CzlcDX04q9/KT1M5zC2lAp0nDGnjDg3bd+oNMz5CfI4V x-incomingheadercount: 42 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(7070007)(98901004); DIR:OUT; SFP:1901; SCL:1; SRVR:AM5EUR02HT127; H:AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: f628ecb1-3932-4d96-9d1e-08d47790f7f0 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(201702061074)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031322274)(1603101448)(1601125374)(1701031045); SRVR:AM5EUR02HT127; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(444000031); SRVR:AM5EUR02HT127; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:AM5EUR02HT127; x-forefront-prvs: 02622CEF0A spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Mar 2017 17:19:48.4279 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM5EUR02HT127 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 17:19:52 -0000 > If you can convince the vendors to redesign their whole hardware designs = to support a new protocol in the forwarding plane to get a acceptable forwa= rding rate AND the ISP's/MSP's to buy new hardware for many $$$, we can sta= rt discussing again, but in the meanwhile no one wants to support a third p= rotocol. IPv10 requires software development, this is what most participants don't w= ant to understand, it will have no cost if they will not upgrade their rout= ers' OSs. -----Original Message----- From: Karsten Thomann [mailto:karsten_thomann@linfre.de]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 7:16 PM To: int-area@ietf.org Cc: Khaled Omar Subject: Re: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. Am Donnerstag, 30. M=E4rz 2017, 16:29:43 schrieb Khaled Omar: > > Same issue with the routers in the path. IPv10 would require *all*=20 > > of >=20 > them to be upgraded for the new packet header format. >=20 > What will happen with one router from a specific company will happen=20 > with all routers from the same vendors, inserting updates is not that har= d,... Just a small comment, as I don't like this discussion, too. That "is not hard" might be true for the installation at home users and sma= ll businesses, but exactly the opposite of "not hard" at every other locati= on. If you can convince the vendors to redesign their whole hardware designs to= support a new protocol in the forwarding plane to get a acceptable forward= ing rate AND the ISP's/MSP's to buy new hardware for many $$$, we can start= discussing again, but in the meanwhile no one wants to support a third pro= tocol. From nobody Thu Mar 30 10:20:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60E001299DA for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:20:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.147 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.147 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id loqwCBeyKRAo for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR02-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092068067.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.68.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19C791299CF for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:20:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=8fHd1WA54aqAxEv7iNqKv+M5jOS/+4kZ0r92hQHqz5Q=; b=K6CQThlA6wdWKgbrvDTQSj01j/y1n3IlmNFlKEyp2CZ64ocoRAD0i9e1LWcTwIcHED7Sdc9aW0yVCnCAIMDY/oeW0wwI5Yisa9TJsrZF5uojQMBf6pOBVPl35TVsTmXwsXVlHVN+jpLQxQjmB3E7XmncU1qO2mkdq2/Grw4AnNJjqGf+XZTW01ZQfH0OsJ4f2STqsQktblvdD0RyC6TsenhsiNxkhbg8GoqKV8eEXsVSZRcaA8tLZI5j/MgUEtLDBVtKWka5T4NRjQNNhTfnqP0iJoBkHPQeB1g21af0eF9hXY9QI5mlEOQXXnmD/+1basSF3m3PKXsaCUSyBZTN5Q== Received: from AM5EUR02FT012.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.8.51) by AM5EUR02HT147.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.9.132) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.977.7; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 17:20:15 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.8.54) by AM5EUR02FT012.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.8.82) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.1005.5 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 17:20:14 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) by AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) with mapi id 15.01.0991.022; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 17:20:14 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Ignas Bagdonas CC: "int-area@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. 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X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 17:20:20 -0000 Ignas, > Please try to view your proposal from the operational side too. If they will not accept these changes they will face the division problem, = they are the customer facing authorities, so if they will not make those ch= anges, they will find another problem from the other side. > For any practically sized operator that would be an exercise of years wit= h associated costs of very substantial nature. Please make yourself more fa= miliar with network operational realities. Upgrading routers' OSs will take a short time if they are organizing their = work and distributing assignments clearly. -----Original Message----- From: Ignas Bagdonas [mailto:ibagdona.ietf@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 7:12 PM To: Khaled Omar Cc: int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. On 30/03/2017 17:29, Khaled Omar wrote: >> Same issue with the routers in the path. IPv10 would require *all* of > them to be upgraded for the new packet header format. > > What will happen with one router from a specific company will happen=20 > with all routers from the same vendors, inserting updates is not that=20 > hard, Khaled, Please try to view your proposal from the operational side too.=20 Designing a protocol wire representation and implementing that for some pla= tform is quite trivial compared to the changes that are needed for the netw= ork support systems, the effort required for validation of that new functio= nality before the deployment, and the feasibility of doing the actual flag = day deployment. For any practically sized operator that would be an exercis= e of years with associated costs of very substantial nature. Please make yo= urself more familiar with network operational realities. Ignas From nobody Thu Mar 30 12:30:39 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietf.org Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11BC7120724; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 12:30:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: int-area@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.49.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <149090223400.15515.4917549376725246921@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 12:30:34 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Int-area] I-D Action: draft-ietf-intarea-ippl-00.txt X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 19:30:34 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Internet Area Working Group of the IETF. Title : IP over Intentionally Partially Partitioned Links Author : Erik Nordmark Filename : draft-ietf-intarea-ippl-00.txt Pages : 16 Date : 2017-03-30 Abstract: IP makes certain assumptions about the L2 forwarding behavior of a multi-access IP link. However, there are several forms of intentional partitioning of links ranging from split-horizon to Private VLANs that violate some of those assumptions. This document specifies that link behavior and how IP handles links with those properties. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-intarea-ippl/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-intarea-ippl-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-intarea-ippl-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Mar 30 13:46:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6191B1294AB for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:46:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.935 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.935 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ChYV58LfUfLA for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d.mail.sonic.net (d.mail.sonic.net [64.142.111.50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3303512943C for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [31.133.133.70] (dhcp-8546.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.133.70]) (authenticated bits=0) by d.mail.sonic.net (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTPSA id v2UKkMcD013310 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:46:23 -0700 References: <149090223418.15515.4518338627004424952.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "int-area@ietf.org" , "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" , Pat Thaler From: Erik Nordmark X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <149090223418.15515.4518338627004424952.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: <73d53477-6521-a5ab-b209-6c285ac77d3d@acm.org> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:46:22 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <149090223418.15515.4518338627004424952.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sonic-CAuth: UmFuZG9tSVY1jOoksOv+UjVye/qdKvpD5pHINPHLLnBTpVQgnAK++RiMmbI4YbjOA6aOGn3DW/vS9mmrjD8s2Yv7p4eVXAOZ X-Sonic-ID: C;Au5C74kV5xGJXrSd+VpWsw== M;DCnQ74kV5xGJXrSd+VpWsw== X-Sonic-Spam-Details: 0.0/5.0 by cerberusd Archived-At: Subject: [Int-area] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-intarea-ippl-00.txt X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:46:29 -0000 This version has the updates based on the liaison from IEEE 802.1 and comments from Pascal. Erik -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-intarea-ippl-00.txt Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 12:30:34 -0700 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Erik Nordmark A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-intarea-ippl-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Erik Nordmark and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-ietf-intarea-ippl Revision: 00 Title: IP over Intentionally Partially Partitioned Links Document date: 2017-03-30 Group: intarea Pages: 16 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-intarea-ippl-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-intarea-ippl/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-intarea-ippl-00 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-intarea-ippl-00 Abstract: IP makes certain assumptions about the L2 forwarding behavior of a multi-access IP link. However, there are several forms of intentional partitioning of links ranging from split-horizon to Private VLANs that violate some of those assumptions. This document specifies that link behavior and how IP handles links with those properties. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Thu Mar 30 15:36:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7978F1293EE for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:36:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DDmlmMvIW3rG for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de (iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de [141.3.10.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0BD131294AE for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i72vorta.tm.uni-karlsruhe.de ([141.3.71.26] helo=i72vorta.tm.kit.edu) by iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de with esmtp port 25 iface 141.3.10.81 id 1ctifb-0005Ry-7W; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 00:35:55 +0200 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by i72vorta.tm.kit.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EAFB4B0039A; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 00:35:54 +0200 (CEST) To: Khaled Omar References: <9c0d9f36-7a07-f9a0-c8b9-75ea5bcb7cf2@kit.edu> From: Roland Bless Organization: Institute of Telematics, Karlsruhe Institute of Technology (KIT) Cc: Int-area@ietf.org Message-ID: <0102a3b9-2774-201a-d1d6-e57a03fa093d@kit.edu> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 00:35:54 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.0.1) Gecko/20060111 Thunderbird/1.5 Mnenhy/0.7.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ATIS-AV: ClamAV (iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de) X-ATIS-Timestamp: iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de 1490913355. Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 22:36:01 -0000 Hi Khaled, see comments inline. On 30.03.2017 at 17:25 Khaled Omar wrote: > This way too is not working, keeping repeating same answers to the > same questions is ridiculous. Since your proposal hasn't changed, I can only give the same answers to the same questions... >> Your IPv10 proposal doesn't solve the IPv6 deployment problems, >> you > basically get an additional IPv10 deployment problem. > > IPv10 does not depends on clients (ISPs or Enterprises) like IPv6 > migration process, it depends on software modification on all hosts' > OSs and routers' OSs to be able to encapsulate both IP version on the > same IP header. How is this different from IPv6? Moreover, for high speed routers, firewalls and so on, IPv6 also required new hardware (so will "IPv10"), thus a router OS update isn't enough in this case. >> IPv10 doesn't allow an IPv6-only host to communicate to an >> IPv4-only > host and vice versa as stated in the I-D. Hint: an IPv4-only host has > got no idea what an IPv6 address is, let alone an "IPv10 address". > Think about a host treats a different version destination as a host > in a different subnet, it will send the packet to the gateway, the > gateway (router) will check the destination packet, and based on its > version (whether it is an IPv4 packet or and IPv6 packet) it will > checks its IP routing table (whether the IPv4 routing or the IPv6 > routing table respectively) to make a routing decision, and each > router on the road to the destination will do the same till reaching > the destination. This isn't the problem I was referring to. An IPv4-only host cannot simply use an IPv6/IPv10 address as destination address since it doesn't have any notion of such addresses. >> As others already pointed out: the proposal is technically flawed > and does not work. > > Please speak with your own tongue, others who stated that had no full > information about how IPv10 works, later they believed it is the best > solution for IPv4 and IPv6 coexistence until reaching a full > migration to IPv6. I already spoke out for myself (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/zyoQNbqFLFP_dgXyBKbnWyI5I3U), but several others seemed to have found the same issues, just reread the thread. >> Repeating this over and over again does not work. IMHO you only can >> move forward with a _technically sound_ proposal, otherwise many >> people will regard it as waste of time. > > Simply, if IPv10 is not of your interest, peacefully don't > participate in the discussion, as I stated on my proposal, the Sorry, I tried to help politely - but if you prefer to dismiss any well intended advice and are not open to criticism of your idea, I better stop now. > internet will be divided into two divisions, and that will not be > good for all of us when some new users will be assigned (or already > assigned) IPv6 only addresses and has no access to all internet > resources or a limited access(Google and Facebook). > >> There are various WGs in the IETF that try to work towards better >> solutions. You may not like them, but they are at least rough >> community consensus. > > Science doesn't understand consensus, science understands ideas, > better ideas and the best idea, that can technically deployed easily But science is based on discussion, facts, experiments and proofs. > and in a short time, I can make a solution like IPv6 and think about > forcing people to migrate, but this will not work practically in a > short time, and this is what we are experiencing, also, thinking > about a solution that requires giving training everywhere to let > people deploy it is not a good solution, because still depends on > clients (users), but to make a solution that depends on a few number > of companies developing networking OSs and can be deployed in a short > time with no interventions of a helping technology (like protocol > translation or asking DNS for more efforts). I still don't see why you wouldn't have exactly the same problems for IPv10. > Eventually, IMHO, you will never reach a full consensus by all IETF > members, so it is the time for the responsible ADs and Chairs with > some help from interested participants to make a good impact for > all. Yes, full consensus isn't required in the IETF, rough consensus suffices. If there is enough interest in the IETF, you'll get a working group to move this forward. Best regards, Roland > > -----Original Message----- From: Bless, Roland (TM) > [mailto:roland.bless@kit.edu] Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 5:03 PM > To: Khaled Omar; int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Int-area] Continuing > IPv10 I-D discussion. > > Dear Omar, > > Am 30.03.2017 um 15:16 schrieb Khaled Omar: >> I think all of you now know about IPv10 and what is the problem and >> how IPv10 can solve it and how it can be deployed in a short >> time. > > - Your IPv10 proposal doesn't solve the IPv6 deployment problems, > you basically get an additional IPv10 deployment problem. - IPv10 > doesn't allow an IPv6-only host to communicate to an IPv4-only host > and vice versa as stated in the I-D. Hint: an IPv4-only host has got > no idea what an IPv6 address is, let alone an "IPv10 address". - As > others already pointed out: the proposal is technically flawed and > does not work. > >> You can ask any question and I'll do my best to give you answers to >> make it clear for everyone so the IPv10 I-D can go forward through >> the IETF standardization process and be published. > > Repeating this over and over again does not work. IMHO you only can > move forward with a _technically sound_ proposal, otherwise many > people will regard it as waste of time. > >> If there is a better solution for this problem I can participate >> freely on its discussion. > > There are various WGs in the IETF that try to work towards better > solutions. You may not like them, but they are at least rough > community consensus. > > Best, Roland > From nobody Thu Mar 30 16:30:18 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89A0212940A for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:30:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.396 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.396 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.796] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y1x7UdQQkzq7 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atl4mhob13.registeredsite.com (atl4mhob13.myregisteredsite.com [209.17.115.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E9EE12960D for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailpod.hostingplatform.com ([10.30.71.206]) by atl4mhob13.registeredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v2UNU7fH029303 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 19:30:07 -0400 Received: (qmail 31991 invoked by uid 0); 30 Mar 2017 23:30:07 -0000 X-TCPREMOTEIP: 31.133.133.33 X-Authenticated-UID: lee@asgard.org Received: from unknown (HELO ?31.133.133.33?) (lee@asgard.org@31.133.133.33) by 0 with ESMTPA; 30 Mar 2017 23:30:06 -0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.7.2.170228 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:30:01 -0500 From: Lee Howard To: Khaled Omar , Ignas Bagdonas CC: "int-area@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. References: <9c0d9f36-7a07-f9a0-c8b9-75ea5bcb7cf2@kit.edu> <20170330160129.GA5508@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <0f6a288c-69e7-c433-c76a-8d5591bb9cf3@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 23:30:16 -0000 On 3/30/17, 12:20 PM, "Int-area on behalf of Khaled Omar" wrote: >Ignas, > >> Please try to view your proposal from the operational side too. > >If they will not accept these changes they will face the division >problem, they are the customer facing authorities, so if they will not >make those changes, they will find another problem from the other side. I don=B9t understand your point. We are approaching the division problem with IPv4 and IPv6. How is a third division helpful? We have consensus on IPv6, and we have significant deployment. Many of us are working on deploying single-stack IPv6 networks, with IPv4 translators at the edges if necessary. > >> For any practically sized operator that would be an exercise of years >>with associated costs of very substantial nature. Please make yourself >>more familiar with network operational realities. > >Upgrading routers' OSs will take a short time if they are organizing >their work and distributing assignments clearly. That is not realistic in a large ISP. I drove the IPv6 deployment at a very large provider. It took us more than five years to get code from the core to the edge. Vendors are terrible at delivering code that doesn=B9t have fundamental bugs. Minor bugs (e.g., IS-IS interoperability between vendors, or prefix lengths other than /64 or /128 on point to point links) can take a long time to identify and fix. Vendors are constantly committing patched code, but operators have to fully test anything they consider putting on their network. Then they find bugs and wait for updates and test again. Once the code is approved, tools have to be updated. This includes standards like IPFIX, and log parsing tools, and alarm generators, and active monitoring tools. Core routers are not updated more often than twice a year. Don=B9t touch a working box: every touch increases the odds of an outage. You=B9ve said that this only requires a software update, but you=B9re talking about adding a header to every packet. Routers use custom chips optimized for processing known headers; anything that doesn=B9t fit that pattern is kicked to a software process, which slows everything down and costs a lot in CPU cores and memory. Adding a header doesn=B9t scale at large numbers of packets per second. Your draft even says, "IPv4 and IPv6 routing must be enabled on all routers=B2 and "All Internet connected hosts must be IPv10 hosts=B2 If we could update every router and host to support a new protocol, we would already have IPv6 completely deployed. I don=B9t see any sign that your proposal is gaining consensus. Lee > >-----Original Message----- >From: Ignas Bagdonas [mailto:ibagdona.ietf@gmail.com] >Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 7:12 PM >To: Khaled Omar >Cc: int-area@ietf.org >Subject: Re: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. > > > >On 30/03/2017 17:29, Khaled Omar wrote: >>> Same issue with the routers in the path. IPv10 would require *all* of >> them to be upgraded for the new packet header format. >> >> What will happen with one router from a specific company will happen >> with all routers from the same vendors, inserting updates is not that >> hard, > >Khaled, > >Please try to view your proposal from the operational side too. >Designing a protocol wire representation and implementing that for some >platform is quite trivial compared to the changes that are needed for the >network support systems, the effort required for validation of that new >functionality before the deployment, and the feasibility of doing the >actual flag day deployment. For any practically sized operator that would >be an exercise of years with associated costs of very substantial nature. >Please make yourself more familiar with network operational realities. > > >Ignas > > >_______________________________________________ >Int-area mailing list >Int-area@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area From nobody Thu Mar 30 16:44:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B89E5127076 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:44:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.145 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.145 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_NONELEMENT_30_40=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0AKZBIzj4a49 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:44:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR02-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092069014.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.69.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F92D129510 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:44:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=R2QDy0Z+ESYIotApjhseuHQO1pBHsec7hmDfJEql5IQ=; b=MK27QtwJoW7NXGUQOBgO88r3MN4vJ4UE9yfGP5OWGU9/5/A4qYAo1q6fcCEEim68RKKXjHnjxUkgf6Bh0TTZg5NjBWH93ldWSLxYWo4YlQVbg1DaAUT07m2uC9vmU/Gs7dSUbFmw8soPFugeG9ddIZdhREsGhjKrMIiAkVd0GaJT9jAtNfJoYqE9DCHEhxmj5ufTxq+jPi5l0UQJakoTF0gs5U7CmvmLTYa7RBnrVlKl0jC3AmJR83GxP+RZjHOVbp+pwez6WuGwpzBplNgncPcEvIk7haKGZwauyAScR5IqVmCVHxH0k84m8Xmh1Gbvuwjz8ZPiqlT7KEyyq1/hrQ== Received: from AM5EUR02FT053.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.8.56) by AM5EUR02HT020.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.9.108) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.977.7; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 23:44:05 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.8.58) by AM5EUR02FT053.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.9.196) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.1005.5 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 23:44:05 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) by AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) with mapi id 15.01.0991.023; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 23:44:05 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: int-area Thread-Topic: [Int-area] Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. 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with ESMTP id ZPQ2SzzCGdR8 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 23:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (swm.pp.se [212.247.200.143]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1E041279EB for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 23:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id 9A33FA4; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:17:14 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1490941034; bh=ithjOqtOwZVo9NnUgoVvMbFOU4kojkkirLZM9ZdB+vQ=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=tL88ltwnL8GMI0OCKbOEfVt0+IQRuQTX8mtWhEk5nv8pVBHlVV7iH0YCgCpyYJqeR vw2NJUYXYAlF58lIcVBRjY9L+eV/xClL8EuWJwsY4FstHJBn2goy30ZnF52kKc1Zam zCW/udY1PNWzqCQIMPoBnMKO5bMyF0IfWXv4hfLw= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97E7EA3; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:17:14 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:17:14 +0200 (CEST) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: Khaled Omar cc: int-area In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: null User-Agent: Alpine 2.02 (DEB 1266 2009-07-14) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:17:20 -0000 On Thu, 30 Mar 2017, Khaled Omar wrote: > You can read the IPv10 I-D again and all your concerns will be obvious, I don't mind if you have already a series of new questions that will add a new value to the discussion but the time to deploy IPv10 is an important factor. > > We need consensus after understanding how IPv10 works and how it will be deployed. As has been stated again and again. Your proposal would have been interesting if it was presented in 1995, or perhaps even in 2000. Let me give you an IPv6 deployment timeline: Standards were worked out in the mid 90-ties, afterwards operating system vendors started working on it and "real" support started cropping up in the early to mid 2000:nds, with a large milestone being Windows Vista in 2006, where as far as I know this was the first widely used consumer operating system to implement this. It then took until Windows 7 timeframe around 2010 before people started moving off of Windows XP in ernest, and we're still seeing Windows XP in non-trivial numbers. So now in 2017 we're seeing most operating systems have comprehensive (albeit perhaps not as well-tested as we would like) support for IPv6, where the application ecosystem still has a way to go. We're still working on better APIs to handle the dual-stackedness problem. Most likely, even if Microsoft could be convinced that IPv10 is something they need to support, this would only happen in Windows 10. Then we have the rest of the ecosystem with access routers, load balancers, SAVI-functionality for BCP38 compliance in access devices, core routers etc. Most of these will require a hardware fork-lift in order to support your proposal, because they do not forward packets in a CPU, they forward it in purpose-designed hardware that is a lot less flexible in what they can do. So even if we all united now (which won't happen) around your IPv10 proposal, it would take 5-10 years before the first devices out on the market had support for it. Probably 5-10 years after that before support is widely available. IPv10 would delay and confuse deployment of something that is not IPv4. While IPv6 is not perfect, there are now hundreds of millions of devices on the Internet with IPv6 access. It's proven to work, it's not perfect, but we have a decently good idea what to do to make it better. IPv10 is only injecting FUD into where we need to go debate, which is IPv6 deployment for all. Please stop. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Fri Mar 31 00:58:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40B701272E1 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 00:58:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O2YHX7MyZMcz for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 00:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de (iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de [141.3.10.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D349F129411 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 00:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i72vorta.tm.uni-karlsruhe.de ([141.3.71.26] helo=i72vorta.tm.kit.edu) by iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de with esmtp port 25 iface 141.3.10.81 id 1ctrKv-0000q2-3I; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:51:09 +0200 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (ip6-localhost [IPv6:::1]) by i72vorta.tm.kit.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08543B0060C; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:51:09 +0200 (CEST) To: Mikael Abrahamsson References: Cc: int-area From: "Bless, Roland (TM)" Organization: Institute of Telematics, Karlsruhe Institute of Technology Message-ID: <1d67d033-8a0f-c7eb-ae37-ec99f5a34660@kit.edu> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:51:09 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ATIS-AV: ClamAV (iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de) X-ATIS-Timestamp: iramx2.ira.uni-karlsruhe.de 1490946669. Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:58:44 -0000 Hi Mikael, thanks for clarifying again, everything +1! Regards, Roland Am 31.03.2017 um 08:17 schrieb Mikael Abrahamsson: > On Thu, 30 Mar 2017, Khaled Omar wrote: > >> You can read the IPv10 I-D again and all your concerns will be >> obvious, I don't mind if you have already a series of new questions >> that will add a new value to the discussion but the time to deploy >> IPv10 is an important factor. >> >> We need consensus after understanding how IPv10 works and how it will >> be deployed. > > As has been stated again and again. Your proposal would have been > interesting if it was presented in 1995, or perhaps even in 2000. > > Let me give you an IPv6 deployment timeline: > > Standards were worked out in the mid 90-ties, afterwards operating > system vendors started working on it and "real" support started cropping > up in the early to mid 2000:nds, with a large milestone being Windows > Vista in 2006, where as far as I know this was the first widely used > consumer operating system to implement this. It then took until Windows > 7 timeframe around 2010 before people started moving off of Windows XP > in ernest, and we're still seeing Windows XP in non-trivial numbers. So > now in 2017 we're seeing most operating systems have comprehensive > (albeit perhaps not as well-tested as we would like) support for IPv6, > where the application ecosystem still has a way to go. We're still > working on better APIs to handle the dual-stackedness problem. > > Most likely, even if Microsoft could be convinced that IPv10 is > something they need to support, this would only happen in Windows 10. > Then we have the rest of the ecosystem with access routers, load > balancers, SAVI-functionality for BCP38 compliance in access devices, > core routers etc. Most of these will require a hardware fork-lift in > order to support your proposal, because they do not forward packets in a > CPU, they forward it in purpose-designed hardware that is a lot less > flexible in what they can do. > > So even if we all united now (which won't happen) around your IPv10 > proposal, it would take 5-10 years before the first devices out on the > market had support for it. Probably 5-10 years after that before support > is widely available. > > IPv10 would delay and confuse deployment of something that is not IPv4. > While IPv6 is not perfect, there are now hundreds of millions of devices > on the Internet with IPv6 access. It's proven to work, it's not perfect, > but we have a decently good idea what to do to make it better. > > IPv10 is only injecting FUD into where we need to go debate, which is > IPv6 deployment for all. > > Please stop. 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Thread-Index: AQHSqfSos1f70z39pEiy56Z0WIwUU6Gu1o4Q Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:13:18 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1d67d033-8a0f-c7eb-ae37-ec99f5a34660@kit.edu> In-Reply-To: <1d67d033-8a0f-c7eb-ae37-ec99f5a34660@kit.edu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: kit.edu; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;kit.edu; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:F91F17276377EAB6537A1EB2C12E2F629AA14D263AD3CBF9FA948C52D2C471B1; UpperCasedChecksum:7FD55A9F4289618911C2DED2E940AD48CA10B2260996169C384C51C0653BFE27; SizeAsReceived:8273; Count:42 x-tmn: [lAUdhP/nhidRMGf5YuBj2dCPGvNBCtMV] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; HE1EUR01HT096; 5:UUYybLffQ4DBI+tLilS0OUUWzVQuGOzLHesHlOj3016waCi5YtQDdWkGMNrdOw9XpKE1r8atvXpiaRIbSlyJF38O1qRXImmgTu+WOHr6XLz6ziZDHPILvAAuxN2PN/GbkcWG6eisUN059aV8+Ob2/A==; 24:2hZO7QNPKFcSSillDlOAG9cEpKW6a1kT16sgOXGJXOJv0ugpSFgsftVSLn7aRQZikLfz6tmM7T9ps64XKKqI7FVmJN0xXICSCscrkR7Ort4=; 7:YOP6X4CTH3EHPHJSOvsjRYqbJUjeCxYwLm+c/Ku4qD6ZFj9u5ywID4xRgIV8f7pE2fg9BuReicVr4cyreF6nqgKGTy538MEy6rdOtQvQhEZ7GDgEW2PZCCmQ4tbirTCSeg48Oq/xAz3j0s9iJSuHzdc3IUFgFUEPyz2VzPunjlfSKYQDtH2hVI5dLwyOdRF+T+ctDJE/C2SXX8QNZhM9fRW9f2zt6WhH0odt2QTTx7ix9ulm8M2dHDhkV+vRIr9tqj6NzADVqDOJ5+3JdDzsBV2dEHJmilGmu1p/kt/NkL2l75QWVVqbxqJs2XLNmotb x-incomingheadercount: 42 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(7070007)(98901004); DIR:OUT; SFP:1901; SCL:1; SRVR:HE1EUR01HT096; H:AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: c4476ed2-1c51-4fb7-3254-08d4782f517e x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(201702061074)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031322274)(1603101448)(1601125374)(1701031045); SRVR:HE1EUR01HT096; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(444000031); SRVR:HE1EUR01HT096; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:HE1EUR01HT096; x-forefront-prvs: 02638D901B spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 31 Mar 2017 12:13:18.9810 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1EUR01HT096 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:13:24 -0000 > As has been stated again and again. Your proposal would have been interes= ting if it was presented in 1995, or perhaps even in 2000. FYI, IPv10 will allow IPv4 to communicate to IPv6 and vice versa, how can i= t be interesting if it was presented before IPv6 was even developed ! > Most likely, even if Microsoft could be convinced that IPv10 is something= they need to support, this would only happen in Windows 10. Then we have t= he rest of the ecosystem with access routers, load balancers, SAVI-function= ality for BCP38 compliance in access devices, core routers etc. Please, let's not be against ourselves, all OSs will be updated to support = IPv10 which is an easy task, OSs will not require support for a new IP vers= ion like IPv6, they will just be enabled to support the encapsulation of bo= th version on the same L3 packet header. Also, networking devices will be upgraded to understand the new IPv10 packe= t, I said earlier I don't mind If the process will take some time but we sh= ould eventually reach consensus, I shouldn't list all devices that need to = support IPv10, simply, anything will process a L3 packet, should understand= that the IPv10 packet can contain a mixture of IPv4 and IPv6 addresses. =20 -----Original Message----- From: Int-area [mailto:int-area-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bless, Rolan= d (TM) Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 9:51 AM To: Mikael Abrahamsson Cc: int-area Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. Hi Mikael, thanks for clarifying again, everything +1! Regards, Roland Am 31.03.2017 um 08:17 schrieb Mikael Abrahamsson: > On Thu, 30 Mar 2017, Khaled Omar wrote: >=20 >> =02You can read the IPv10 I-D again and all your concerns will be=20 >> obvious, I don't mind if you have already a series of new questions=20 >> that will add a new value to the discussion but the time to deploy >> IPv10 is an important factor. >> >> We need consensus after understanding how IPv10 works and how it will=20 >> be deployed. >=20 > As has been stated again and again. Your proposal would have been=20 > interesting if it was presented in 1995, or perhaps even in 2000. >=20 > Let me give you an IPv6 deployment timeline: >=20 > Standards were worked out in the mid 90-ties, afterwards operating=20 > system vendors started working on it and "real" support started=20 > cropping up in the early to mid 2000:nds, with a large milestone being=20 > Windows Vista in 2006, where as far as I know this was the first=20 > widely used consumer operating system to implement this. It then took=20 > until Windows > 7 timeframe around 2010 before people started moving off of Windows XP=20 > in ernest, and we're still seeing Windows XP in non-trivial numbers.=20 > So now in 2017 we're seeing most operating systems have comprehensive=20 > (albeit perhaps not as well-tested as we would like) support for IPv6,=20 > where the application ecosystem still has a way to go. We're still=20 > working on better APIs to handle the dual-stackedness problem. >=20 > Most likely, even if Microsoft could be convinced that IPv10 is=20 > something they need to support, this would only happen in Windows 10. > Then we have the rest of the ecosystem with access routers, load=20 > balancers, SAVI-functionality for BCP38 compliance in access devices,=20 > core routers etc. Most of these will require a hardware fork-lift in=20 > order to support your proposal, because they do not forward packets in=20 > a CPU, they forward it in purpose-designed hardware that is a lot less=20 > flexible in what they can do. >=20 > So even if we all united now (which won't happen) around your IPv10=20 > proposal, it would take 5-10 years before the first devices out on the=20 > market had support for it. Probably 5-10 years after that before=20 > support is widely available. >=20 > IPv10 would delay and confuse deployment of something that is not IPv4. > While IPv6 is not perfect, there are now hundreds of millions of=20 > devices on the Internet with IPv6 access. It's proven to work, it's=20 > not perfect, but we have a decently good idea what to do to make it bette= r. >=20 > IPv10 is only injecting FUD into where we need to go debate, which is > IPv6 deployment for all. >=20 > Please stop. _______________________________________________ Int-area mailing list Int-area@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area From nobody Fri Mar 31 07:19:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ACD1129495 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:19:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fn9tTnic4PYq for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:19:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x235.google.com (mail-qt0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 265B5129471 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:19:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x235.google.com with SMTP id r45so66322785qte.3 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:19:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=46R55/q9/AwGWa/D6kGItPliy6RQKLkl5t9OOTSw0fs=; b=1oDxSj06n0+b7pexjHHkuX0jlmY8JOSk3CzMY5pdJEIOgoJXk5inYiTBtvJZ5FVLE7 cylSDI6r78+wZdO229Y4/vHGv3A+CVgcsb/DRcKROSS/DLRhZDzSriYGKu2O3q4K8U9u SUoOaSWoO41QXXw3Gz+1Y6+Vc53HxsU3TVfnDLV/FuySIcBOb0kDcR0mHZgjWJYfIE/6 +L8fGJYBojOHnqSP/xTkT5MK+YjiMFiUPBcIhF0jmG4iKN3aURFC4yq1uLV/26wT9Xe5 phJmt2rjh4hIlWi7HMcLp7uEwsdLTJI4uJLuUPwFeJZWJS/VGzp+ZR0ApWxgejZLa/yP AMDQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=46R55/q9/AwGWa/D6kGItPliy6RQKLkl5t9OOTSw0fs=; b=BgHE/ZCqzDUcY4kcX82BqMNpWRa/YDOA4IrRiAOuUlPTGqzw2BJi8rKM4GAb8cS4vg DuBDUa6KJl5x3rqhpPLvq17ZB6E+Y6vOKQrdNjwq4dE1LSNv59HpLSpnHFTs2WfGdNEO da85cYQ0TYMA2rKjYgKFzfYSJRrFWEo1FH+KQXOlNJXN5m/FJoGrnhw3/HcBKX30vQmg mRVzhTgJSFwAhHiEdPl4BSC9GXCJE0UtRBhG0cQoA1DvIo9CWmT2htC+SPqy02nhQCMe +iO+X/+b4iSXq1L0WJ9ZUOe0UBuxguNTY+1a0Th8xnoGlyzRLmGb4txw7d+L3H4Un8Uf DzDA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H093FWgSc16VFb3e1akSYSW7TJXfdKaQ92yhK9J0wbV+AUWacr6eIl7Xumgh+kQGFUN7PWX0zJsZ5O8dw== X-Received: by 10.200.38.3 with SMTP id u3mr3042433qtu.203.1490969948158; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:19:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.94.113 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:19:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1d67d033-8a0f-c7eb-ae37-ec99f5a34660@kit.edu> From: Tom Herbert Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:19:07 -0700 Message-ID: To: Khaled Omar Cc: "Bless, Roland (TM)" , "int-area@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:19:18 -0000 On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 5:13 AM, Khaled Omar wrote: >> As has been stated again and again. Your proposal would have been intere= sting if it was presented in 1995, or perhaps even in 2000. > > FYI, IPv10 will allow IPv4 to communicate to IPv6 and vice versa, how can= it be interesting if it was presented before IPv6 was even developed ! > >> Most likely, even if Microsoft could be convinced that IPv10 is somethin= g they need to support, this would only happen in Windows 10. Then we have = the rest of the ecosystem with access routers, load balancers, SAVI-functio= nality for BCP38 compliance in access devices, core routers etc. > > Please, let's not be against ourselves, all OSs will be updated to suppor= t IPv10 which is an easy task, OSs will not require support for a new IP ve= rsion like IPv6, they will just be enabled to support the encapsulation of = both version on the same L3 packet header. "all OSs will be updated to support IPv10 which is an easy task"... What makes you think it is ever an easy task to get all OSes to uniformly support anything? Please provide an implementation so we can evaluate the prospects. Tom > > Also, networking devices will be upgraded to understand the new IPv10 pac= ket, I said earlier I don't mind If the process will take some time but we = should eventually reach consensus, I shouldn't list all devices that need t= o support IPv10, simply, anything will process a L3 packet, should understa= nd that the IPv10 packet can contain a mixture of IPv4 and IPv6 addresses. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Int-area [mailto:int-area-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bless, Rol= and (TM) > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 9:51 AM > To: Mikael Abrahamsson > Cc: int-area > Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. > > Hi Mikael, > > thanks for clarifying again, everything +1! > > Regards, > Roland > > Am 31.03.2017 um 08:17 schrieb Mikael Abrahamsson: >> On Thu, 30 Mar 2017, Khaled Omar wrote: >> >>> You can read the IPv10 I-D again and all your concerns will be >>> obvious, I don't mind if you have already a series of new questions >>> that will add a new value to the discussion but the time to deploy >>> IPv10 is an important factor. >>> >>> We need consensus after understanding how IPv10 works and how it will >>> be deployed. >> >> As has been stated again and again. Your proposal would have been >> interesting if it was presented in 1995, or perhaps even in 2000. >> >> Let me give you an IPv6 deployment timeline: >> >> Standards were worked out in the mid 90-ties, afterwards operating >> system vendors started working on it and "real" support started >> cropping up in the early to mid 2000:nds, with a large milestone being >> Windows Vista in 2006, where as far as I know this was the first >> widely used consumer operating system to implement this. It then took >> until Windows >> 7 timeframe around 2010 before people started moving off of Windows XP >> in ernest, and we're still seeing Windows XP in non-trivial numbers. >> So now in 2017 we're seeing most operating systems have comprehensive >> (albeit perhaps not as well-tested as we would like) support for IPv6, >> where the application ecosystem still has a way to go. We're still >> working on better APIs to handle the dual-stackedness problem. >> >> Most likely, even if Microsoft could be convinced that IPv10 is >> something they need to support, this would only happen in Windows 10. >> Then we have the rest of the ecosystem with access routers, load >> balancers, SAVI-functionality for BCP38 compliance in access devices, >> core routers etc. Most of these will require a hardware fork-lift in >> order to support your proposal, because they do not forward packets in >> a CPU, they forward it in purpose-designed hardware that is a lot less >> flexible in what they can do. >> >> So even if we all united now (which won't happen) around your IPv10 >> proposal, it would take 5-10 years before the first devices out on the >> market had support for it. Probably 5-10 years after that before >> support is widely available. >> >> IPv10 would delay and confuse deployment of something that is not IPv4. >> While IPv6 is not perfect, there are now hundreds of millions of >> devices on the Internet with IPv6 access. It's proven to work, it's >> not perfect, but we have a decently good idea what to do to make it bett= er. >> >> IPv10 is only injecting FUD into where we need to go debate, which is >> IPv6 deployment for all. >> >> Please stop. > > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area From nobody Fri Mar 31 07:24:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EA841296B1 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:24:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ugDG9CnLcdfv for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:24:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR03-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092070023.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.70.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB4FC127A97 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:24:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=+7aBDEaqR1JBtYFqQesAxi5NS6UI2OnozxgWTs/O7ho=; b=XXMbHhNXTGVGYyaqYtIOZFMmhesfX/qhHA5LG1Ci+KVfK2ImuoXpYjyNReCp6fI60QzcSx5C7yRgzMfjFjtVvIGlPG4FI+3SYu2rEIUqM8s3uakYBX5ztu5uKeOn/JnsGvRxHF/mdJMkSiD+bXlfLPJBaMQewcbgHIT379XwyoEqO4v3Yl4X8BiSK39kv2HRrfis9ujZ9vWLIpjTJY6bx4xwj4DAamEAr84GibklOeA6s1r5KrHU10YIj0QyOooxLX1jCZrMkN9Tkuy4OJmnUnvjwIUxouLvEvd7Bs/xOq2ZVZBuJ34whRranoKMkTo6fhL9Ghx0/UPjvR7HzLvVbA== Received: from VE1EUR03FT017.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.18.58) by VE1EUR03HT036.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.19.157) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.1005.5; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:24:12 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.18.52) by VE1EUR03FT017.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.18.90) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.1005.5 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:24:11 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) by AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) with mapi id 15.01.0991.023; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:24:11 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Tom Herbert CC: "int-area@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. 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Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F84512986E for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:30:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VhBeSBVixLEG for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (swm.pp.se [212.247.200.143]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B1571296B7 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id A293AA4; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:30:37 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1490970637; bh=ZQklqCZzd/OX6f58nESvgth+Uyl3vq7F7w6mEDfI9B8=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=lKifd4tBy3/HZIzHMvKzYIExZD4KPuwUUtqqNjI9+lt6eqLeRNTH4tGCGad2i60z/ oX2ZFNMGoDeOjXrfdU1QVcKiPMBGdlQ6SZrEjuAF+w+7YDFvsYZKZch4+DocNqABBL hfe+uC6Jcm7pvcv4FrmDJ+DxilJlkT9d5bQCPTek= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0723A3; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:30:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:30:37 +0200 (CEST) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: Khaled Omar cc: "int-area@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <1d67d033-8a0f-c7eb-ae37-ec99f5a34660@kit.edu> User-Agent: Alpine 2.02 (DEB 1266 2009-07-14) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:30:43 -0000 On Fri, 31 Mar 2017, Khaled Omar wrote: >> As has been stated again and again. Your proposal would have been interesting if it was presented in 1995, or perhaps even in 2000. > > FYI, IPv10 will allow IPv4 to communicate to IPv6 and vice versa, how can it be interesting if it was presented before IPv6 was even developed ! Because your ideas could possibly have been included in IPv6 and we would have had support for it by now. Now you're 20 years too late, and your energy would be better spent trying to make IPv6 more deployable without changing the on-wire packet format. You're grossly underestimating the effort and time to get devices into the field to properly support a new packet format. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Fri Mar 31 07:35:19 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B186129875 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:35:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1lAvGlvtYSv1 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x236.google.com (mail-qt0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEA9012422F for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x236.google.com with SMTP id i34so66906739qtc.0 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:35:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=p6j9IZvyYxacDGm7mpA5mgTQY8GrMcFp9EEbcg+2hP4=; b=pXNyqqp8ajAHfDDz8ywEmt9OVmSM4BOLEkrrqMfQc7+2ZUvWj8i8GM9i5e6Oja2tcE g2RkmloOxF5pKE2Fy7bAsAMILntu0ngVaHBGBgNswLKqJgN8OIuF4k9NMEia+9pshvnj TYnnPQXZoEjvivSl59d3vX8J5TvtXkEDoSADUpprC8Nok9xjBHEo9t42VpDfRVqqxNtO ju2wZiLNoFzHUjO5MaHpELjGU2joIUEmUV3sFRryk37OTUb1FAHA5e1sRmiaTt9Bfwq5 5wkGbYdlgp29TFa3nAxFnrnx0C59eGzVKp2We/vTzLSbn+I+LdHB1DalRP+g/Hp97Nj3 7Pwg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=p6j9IZvyYxacDGm7mpA5mgTQY8GrMcFp9EEbcg+2hP4=; b=dLVhABk4yEAhSzvAdOobcqTblQOdD5hKHzbyBwh/T3esJLcIz4EErVQgaVDBk1gMCR 2BXGrna6IUgvVwTZkekFGh6ttivjl865YF6jO5srIil72+b4Z2CDb09++ifJ+GqGkrue nvnzEZFo21EEJhM5V26+He1uLyOPSFHh4uIIMy1gYICP0x2FN5do17khR0mDBqN9P5MQ 7wm55nWGfL92IbtRsuX/F68PqmdCGI8t6KXj7wEERUi+2ckFiO9WropsHU2jtVEQKCEG 5TlOXAQMXWvp+5RJWnmXhz+au+m0gYa6/561qFs8BsycxOdn/W9NKoJMC4sKBEQAgzAW 1HTw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2i0Zjr5bmIyDDXHvRGjhrdLxjUNjbH/1T1wKmVOk2HjOVQWYY/yY3LgZXWZHqccsAxlDUwyfwW0kTt+g== X-Received: by 10.237.40.66 with SMTP id r60mr3326708qtd.42.1490970910703; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:35:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.94.113 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:35:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1d67d033-8a0f-c7eb-ae37-ec99f5a34660@kit.edu> From: Tom Herbert Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:35:10 -0700 Message-ID: To: Khaled Omar Cc: "int-area@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:35:18 -0000 On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 7:24 AM, Khaled Omar wrote: >> "all OSs will be updated to support IPv10 which is an easy task"... >>>What makes you think it is ever an easy task to get all OSes to uniforml= y support anything? Please provide an implementation so we can evaluate the= prospects. > > For the 2nd time: > > "I shouldn't list all devices that need to support IPv10, simply, anythin= g will process a L3 packet, should understand that the IPv10 packet can con= tain a mixture of IPv4 and IPv6 addresses." > I don't know what "anything will process an L3 packet" means. Please answer directly: does this proposal need changes in every OS or not? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Herbert [mailto:tom@herbertland.com] > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 4:19 PM > To: Khaled Omar > Cc: Bless, Roland (TM); int-area@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. > > On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 5:13 AM, Khaled Omar wrote: >>> As has been stated again and again. Your proposal would have been inter= esting if it was presented in 1995, or perhaps even in 2000. >> >> FYI, IPv10 will allow IPv4 to communicate to IPv6 and vice versa, how ca= n it be interesting if it was presented before IPv6 was even developed ! >> >>> Most likely, even if Microsoft could be convinced that IPv10 is somethi= ng they need to support, this would only happen in Windows 10. Then we have= the rest of the ecosystem with access routers, load balancers, SAVI-functi= onality for BCP38 compliance in access devices, core routers etc. >> >> Please, let's not be against ourselves, all OSs will be updated to suppo= rt IPv10 which is an easy task, OSs will not require support for a new IP v= ersion like IPv6, they will just be enabled to support the encapsulation of= both version on the same L3 packet header. > > "all OSs will be updated to support IPv10 which is an easy task"... > What makes you think it is ever an easy task to get all OSes to uniformly= support anything? Please provide an implementation so we can evaluate the = prospects. > > Tom > >> >> Also, networking devices will be upgraded to understand the new IPv10 pa= cket, I said earlier I don't mind If the process will take some time but we= should eventually reach consensus, I shouldn't list all devices that need = to support IPv10, simply, anything will process a L3 packet, should underst= and that the IPv10 packet can contain a mixture of IPv4 and IPv6 addresses. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Int-area [mailto:int-area-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bless, >> Roland (TM) >> Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 9:51 AM >> To: Mikael Abrahamsson >> Cc: int-area >> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. >> >> Hi Mikael, >> >> thanks for clarifying again, everything +1! >> >> Regards, >> Roland >> >> Am 31.03.2017 um 08:17 schrieb Mikael Abrahamsson: >>> On Thu, 30 Mar 2017, Khaled Omar wrote: >>> >>>> You can read the IPv10 I-D again and all your concerns will be >>>> obvious, I don't mind if you have already a series of new questions >>>> that will add a new value to the discussion but the time to deploy >>>> IPv10 is an important factor. >>>> >>>> We need consensus after understanding how IPv10 works and how it >>>> will be deployed. >>> >>> As has been stated again and again. Your proposal would have been >>> interesting if it was presented in 1995, or perhaps even in 2000. >>> >>> Let me give you an IPv6 deployment timeline: >>> >>> Standards were worked out in the mid 90-ties, afterwards operating >>> system vendors started working on it and "real" support started >>> cropping up in the early to mid 2000:nds, with a large milestone >>> being Windows Vista in 2006, where as far as I know this was the >>> first widely used consumer operating system to implement this. It >>> then took until Windows >>> 7 timeframe around 2010 before people started moving off of Windows >>> XP in ernest, and we're still seeing Windows XP in non-trivial numbers. >>> So now in 2017 we're seeing most operating systems have comprehensive >>> (albeit perhaps not as well-tested as we would like) support for >>> IPv6, where the application ecosystem still has a way to go. We're >>> still working on better APIs to handle the dual-stackedness problem. >>> >>> Most likely, even if Microsoft could be convinced that IPv10 is >>> something they need to support, this would only happen in Windows 10. >>> Then we have the rest of the ecosystem with access routers, load >>> balancers, SAVI-functionality for BCP38 compliance in access devices, >>> core routers etc. Most of these will require a hardware fork-lift in >>> order to support your proposal, because they do not forward packets >>> in a CPU, they forward it in purpose-designed hardware that is a lot >>> less flexible in what they can do. >>> >>> So even if we all united now (which won't happen) around your IPv10 >>> proposal, it would take 5-10 years before the first devices out on >>> the market had support for it. Probably 5-10 years after that before >>> support is widely available. >>> >>> IPv10 would delay and confuse deployment of something that is not IPv4. >>> While IPv6 is not perfect, there are now hundreds of millions of >>> devices on the Internet with IPv6 access. It's proven to work, it's >>> not perfect, but we have a decently good idea what to do to make it bet= ter. >>> >>> IPv10 is only injecting FUD into where we need to go debate, which is >>> IPv6 deployment for all. >>> >>> Please stop. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Int-area mailing list >> Int-area@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Int-area mailing list >> Int-area@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area From nobody Fri Mar 31 07:37:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8512C129951 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:37:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5Z4_nUtLWE-v for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR01-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092065034.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.65.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FB0C12996F for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:37:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=Hd8Z7s+KsAt6VeQPZoY8Oa+14pyc2O/THzNusOkz2Fs=; b=gdvE8u5ZpNBeqVUb8NRCA/XSAJnlbPLxxeHKQFNDpbmerHimfYQA8OOB7EddSpsjxI9Y9SduFpSsDEsvKGMufiQyn0kGuLiNQ8Nbv8+tTh36Vu4m0p+rzJ2j90tVCJ5LuNZpHwa1AmiQdH6pgoNk/04IuR1+KFcdwwB/dX5RrNys46akOETy3ahTNxvrn3byLnQfJ4WRV+gQxp3nOAYaRhNHZovzLenJEB7cVAmEv1rnXcIdg4ocTSD0bI45KKUTkeO9kqzGEXsMbFTT9uJSWP8x4kpAPG60EkW0Ehl2kesQBh8YHUxrB4B0dSreTjg/UvvnQBSzazmMC/03pxvngA== Received: from HE1EUR01FT052.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.0.58) by HE1EUR01HT086.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.1.100) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.977.7; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:37:03 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.0.58) by HE1EUR01FT052.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.1.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.1005.5 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:37:03 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) by AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) with mapi id 15.01.0991.023; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:37:03 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Mikael Abrahamsson CC: "int-area@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. Thread-Index: AQHSqfSos1f70z39pEiy56Z0WIwUU6Gu1o4QgAAsQoCAAACM0A== Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:37:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1d67d033-8a0f-c7eb-ae37-ec99f5a34660@kit.edu> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: swm.pp.se; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;swm.pp.se; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:9B0F4661C43039791723F3BA5E9A502AE3E05483F87F75D184AA3AD8D77E6C51; UpperCasedChecksum:091C1551330CA9C8C5EA6C31A92C835B9BAC152D2E07B729D5804F01060CB248; SizeAsReceived:8436; Count:42 x-tmn: [s7FMl0mdUSrZgZcsTxIMZ9XmeICNJnSs] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; HE1EUR01HT086; 5:Se7L9FvDOTUk7zqBn8+PqO51uC/Kv5exa/P2nAR61PMLyQ7tDsuhDPOrSWa8ZhQdELsBMmifwacgV4I++lzTBWEybYoNzWV068RPs796m7F90ma8u4eqfbZhfAHF9636A0qTaKmoMKmKYDMGwt9TBA==; 24:pt5T0CkE9NKVrUHl2riWIjgcKs9/rt0QUFs2lbvQlBR9XYylnJZoyffP/07zyZWHlG8Mtf1nYIOZc8Rcco7MZqSPf00buVY+D7JSDVaGESs=; 7:1eWjO7UDdLZJlUFbG+a5uaPmVZjUVYeZK7FRqYWQ24Slrj+b0mF0RXvqelyqYiJTFgYYNcKkEr/UHrZP/M1hW5cEGhJtT+mTAXBFkSzxX9nq1fd8FtWPUWml1rlHaaTFk/fS6L5lhQ7alOwwPC5vctIQrw2QMreh7w3xzwB0eOzjTBA403dlKH0AafF0m8ZrKMfIlVeN7L+vvIHYQOLnXrh5dUAYzrkMbBjUlzusTtIZY+FsjP5SM33DVF8lAwEo5X45FYLcZjk+ZxovbSvqYPSPNEqB0JFSiH3gnwdq3HejDcHcTcwMb+1JvWvz2tLC x-incomingheadercount: 42 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(7070007)(98901004); DIR:OUT; SFP:1901; SCL:1; SRVR:HE1EUR01HT086; H:AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: c726bf97-95df-4f22-2429-08d4784365b0 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(201702061074)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031322274)(1603101448)(1601125374)(1701031045); SRVR:HE1EUR01HT086; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(444000031); SRVR:HE1EUR01HT086; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:HE1EUR01HT086; x-forefront-prvs: 02638D901B spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 31 Mar 2017 14:37:02.9115 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1EUR01HT086 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:37:07 -0000 > Because your ideas could possibly have been included in IPv6 and we would= have had support for it by now. Now you're 20 years too late, and your ene= rgy would be better spent trying to make IPv6 more deployable without chang= ing the on-wire packet format. How you would know 20 years ago that IPv6 will not be deployed in a short t= ime so you wanted to add IPv10 to IPv6 ?! Regarding the energy spent trying to make IPv6 more deployable, I think you= can ask the RIRs for their trainings they have made worldwide to make the = migration to IPv6 occurs, but in vain, so my solution IPv10 will not waste = more energy as it will compensate these efforts in a short time ;-) =20 -----Original Message----- From: Mikael Abrahamsson [mailto:swmike@swm.pp.se]=20 Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 4:31 PM To: Khaled Omar Cc: int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. On Fri, 31 Mar 2017, Khaled Omar wrote: >> As has been stated again and again. Your proposal would have been intere= sting if it was presented in 1995, or perhaps even in 2000. > > FYI, IPv10 will allow IPv4 to communicate to IPv6 and vice versa, how can= it be interesting if it was presented before IPv6 was even developed ! Because your ideas could possibly have been included in IPv6 and we would h= ave had support for it by now. Now you're 20 years too late, and your energ= y would be better spent trying to make IPv6 more deployable without changin= g the on-wire packet format. You're grossly underestimating the effort and time to get devices into the = field to properly support a new packet format. --=20 Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Fri Mar 31 07:39:58 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D01E12995D for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:39:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N8jtpvg2Muvh for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR01-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092066018.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.66.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A4F512987B for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:39:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=SpNfmq4bjGTrhhoAQwTcnsvh7pyZ/LVkEs6hR2EgFmM=; b=XfUxz0deIUg3XdzC2Le8UjqtgEJErozTXiLRAMl2llbDBnj0XgBFgrzKemrL6Q+gdhGIvuO+2VUohQyn1eHneLSl9KdSQqipB3BTHtVYhXCns3Zr0IuD2JPkoKL+wVTVZZd8EHdf6Xg2yYQtV14VIwEImTuuWhngxTTrkfGDtU8ug22EZtubjLBLDOV7ymYoljj8l5sbkpJnOffN0jJ0nis9ry7dRf3WyeyQACHep6qHPNMH0227dF50UaAm15q1NdqkZ3hhBaJWF21h/JlOKunuA+TGiZlYglzXKmdL77P+rppDDg4mVv6qVbniBgeQ9XatLcgRrvRYYSYkVOYFEg== Received: from HE1EUR01FT052.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.0.53) by HE1EUR01HT197.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.1.160) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.977.7; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:39:47 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.0.58) by HE1EUR01FT052.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.1.94) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.1005.5 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:39:47 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) by AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) with mapi id 15.01.0991.023; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:39:47 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Mikael Abrahamsson CC: "int-area@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. Thread-Index: AQHSqfSos1f70z39pEiy56Z0WIwUU6Gu1o4QgAAsQoCAAAJDAA== Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:39:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1d67d033-8a0f-c7eb-ae37-ec99f5a34660@kit.edu> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: swm.pp.se; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;swm.pp.se; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:35E87D48518249383732B947F5085E56F5F76E75FB5C39AB8B66E0E0E558D2D5; UpperCasedChecksum:439444326BE7489DE62A6690B7285BBA012FA471C8269C2DE2D452534997EB97; SizeAsReceived:8436; Count:42 x-tmn: [oou7pCjLvOE0Q5FKehCRdZSFGzY7xjrg] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; HE1EUR01HT197; 5:ZnPBW+jrmFSeFZDZfTTvSpJ1WpoaoDX5dIjRk8WwyUbwAYYetSDE2UHoNlnDyz+xef35arY9izU9//clGrZ/L6LAUO38ZC1DkhI7qUrd2UhhHM76gjT79DFmvF827oA8w6J1WU+bmufALsGmgPBaCg==; 24:su4iem1fKQbGZ2Nh+G1epsRN7KtDiMIGwkW4NO/0r/MgGraoKzot5h4s+S6TWqezKkdNRpc6mq03XhNfNTP0XH23di5/EfQ1IFviaW1THfs=; 7:HIiDtbxHXjbSDA2wQI+nGExiG5a6cvOXX1mXBxtaxM3ZXr83r9sefoyAonR21J2cu5a02YtaqpnfspCVT0sbsdQF2TVwyhbJ0QsUGJ401LJ+jqkHT3kLapcTy1Q9J63GPysENecD23p55GT+SJBhhsAHrXdXKdtLiBVu9aG2Vrrzxz2houlteyXcPpLViBDWytf8NA+HGSF1gcSkGTyFLXypD4Wf77MeM7qVSMZG6mcFL/LKxkbmd5WN3ZfOfRl5kbXJWhAfCZVfO0bYBmAUW2NijwJQoG7i2CSxXc5b5AH/7EkrL9FPQ82dYSrYTfke x-incomingheadercount: 42 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(7070007)(98901004); DIR:OUT; SFP:1901; SCL:1; SRVR:HE1EUR01HT197; H:AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 70c84135-412a-43e0-5608-08d47843c7d6 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(201702061074)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031322274)(1603101448)(1601125374)(1701031045); SRVR:HE1EUR01HT197; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(444000031); SRVR:HE1EUR01HT197; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:HE1EUR01HT197; x-forefront-prvs: 02638D901B spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 31 Mar 2017 14:39:47.4565 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1EUR01HT197 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:39:54 -0000 > Because your ideas could possibly have been included in IPv6 and we would= have had support for it by now. Now you're 20 years too late, and your ene= rgy would be better spent trying to make IPv6 more deployable without chang= ing the on-wire packet format. How you would know 20 years ago that IPv6 will not be deployed in a short t= ime so you wanted to add IPv10 to IPv6 ?! Regarding the energy spent trying to make IPv6 more deployable, I think you= can ask the RIRs for the trainings they have made worldwide to make the mi= gration to IPv6 occurs. -----Original Message----- From: Mikael Abrahamsson [mailto:swmike@swm.pp.se]=20 Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 4:31 PM To: Khaled Omar Cc: int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. On Fri, 31 Mar 2017, Khaled Omar wrote: >> As has been stated again and again. Your proposal would have been intere= sting if it was presented in 1995, or perhaps even in 2000. > > FYI, IPv10 will allow IPv4 to communicate to IPv6 and vice versa, how can= it be interesting if it was presented before IPv6 was even developed ! Because your ideas could possibly have been included in IPv6 and we would h= ave had support for it by now. Now you're 20 years too late, and your energ= y would be better spent trying to make IPv6 more deployable without changin= g the on-wire packet format. You're grossly underestimating the effort and time to get devices into the = field to properly support a new packet format. --=20 Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Fri Mar 31 07:44:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F36C1129975 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:44:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1qucFb-4ysmG for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:44:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x22e.google.com (mail-io0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44E6112987B for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:44:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id z13so41027602iof.2 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:44:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EUDbb+RR3eGJce5Vz3ZDOBWwsxi0HxEdnSi2u3ahS7E=; b=nUS8EGwAHlBMJ4wFT+JM7sa7Mw+VV0F7s/DO/8g9oR42kxqF9DNxTUZ7B+Dljp2Qd/ qKqzK8kDUqbBGAI36zaElzqJC/koyJTvpmlnP8RNgVkGlEZfwp9muqenZk+/ELGOVeor x03iHxH0BuTgic2eY5AYPzYFxPVR7HWVgJWdJEs/+c2yfCt8baa4CEBgYmrvBu8M5tFx 7N04Ry9akvEBJ0KKD8a8IUFokHRxDRLfFgYEe/hlR+jkJFkRuq1HEbZhK0ReQxr3yuCb c7+LtjPxbINqcjK0+KgdxmBkRnhg/n+tmDAy/n3sJFbMEa+/pIqIfuFO3LfXkQv8QMRd 9mkQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EUDbb+RR3eGJce5Vz3ZDOBWwsxi0HxEdnSi2u3ahS7E=; b=WZIzdjQ55QHq6B9iFxir7bolfn1Yakrdle2cFtoIvJNZFAxeIq1A0NHtonO6h7OjPl x8DGy/OMODS2c4sTs8lwv3fVbMZjCZRJ4OqWKYgdSPCgMiG+xGolHlKTV+5xWwIrNa1x 64qZCCWu1lb8jIGlosWD2t+Jt0FRzdCqgcKJd6wOjkbTD+X92Fr+kj7tdfbJireQEXUO rJUR7m67vyrJpvsR1NHJwHxYch0FXhdhz6v1Yh0rdWIObu1PWKHpIsoMhdIfSfGIMdzx t3a95yQJK/YVzuhiTNxrfJItDLZFIb4UqiPUKrd+LQ8W8Ok1d+HQruiCmSgkQ7g1H4f3 EEkA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2jxZ/3mnyVykRK8h1o/qx+OaNMyWLTsSwPAZyoh1nHDVUVHnHM8d88O3ZsQ9ytREQv61j4yJLp7gnxCA== X-Received: by 10.107.136.96 with SMTP id k93mr3371767iod.20.1490971442566; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:44:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.184.197 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:43:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1d67d033-8a0f-c7eb-ae37-ec99f5a34660@kit.edu> From: Jen Linkova Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:43:41 +0200 Message-ID: To: Khaled Omar Cc: "int-area@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:44:08 -0000 On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 4:24 PM, Khaled Omar wrote: >> "all OSs will be updated to support IPv10 which is an easy task"... >>>What makes you think it is ever an easy task to get all OSes to uniforml= y support anything? Please provide an implementation so we can evaluate the= prospects. > > For the 2nd time: > > "I shouldn't list all devices that need to support IPv10, simply, anythin= g will process a L3 packet, should understand that the IPv10 packet can con= tain a mixture of IPv4 and IPv6 addresses." So far many people mentioned to you that updating software on clients and on network devices is very expensive, complicated and slow process - and those people have been through that process before. You believe quite the opposite, that it's easy and could be done overnight but so far we have not seen any data supporting your point of view. Maybe your arguments would be more convincing if you can do the following: - get IPv10 supported in at least one major operating system and by at least one major routers/switches vendor - get a canary deployment in a reasonably sized network (preferably including 'bring-your-own' device, various access technologies and indeed Internet access over IPv10) - come back to IETF with the deployment success story and some data on the deployability of your protocol and tell us about lessons learned. Then we might continue this discussion. > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Herbert [mailto:tom@herbertland.com] > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 4:19 PM > To: Khaled Omar > Cc: Bless, Roland (TM); int-area@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. > > On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 5:13 AM, Khaled Omar wrote: >>> As has been stated again and again. Your proposal would have been inter= esting if it was presented in 1995, or perhaps even in 2000. >> >> FYI, IPv10 will allow IPv4 to communicate to IPv6 and vice versa, how ca= n it be interesting if it was presented before IPv6 was even developed ! >> >>> Most likely, even if Microsoft could be convinced that IPv10 is somethi= ng they need to support, this would only happen in Windows 10. Then we have= the rest of the ecosystem with access routers, load balancers, SAVI-functi= onality for BCP38 compliance in access devices, core routers etc. >> >> Please, let's not be against ourselves, all OSs will be updated to suppo= rt IPv10 which is an easy task, OSs will not require support for a new IP v= ersion like IPv6, they will just be enabled to support the encapsulation of= both version on the same L3 packet header. > > "all OSs will be updated to support IPv10 which is an easy task"... > What makes you think it is ever an easy task to get all OSes to uniformly= support anything? Please provide an implementation so we can evaluate the = prospects. > > Tom > >> >> Also, networking devices will be upgraded to understand the new IPv10 pa= cket, I said earlier I don't mind If the process will take some time but we= should eventually reach consensus, I shouldn't list all devices that need = to support IPv10, simply, anything will process a L3 packet, should underst= and that the IPv10 packet can contain a mixture of IPv4 and IPv6 addresses. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Int-area [mailto:int-area-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bless, >> Roland (TM) >> Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 9:51 AM >> To: Mikael Abrahamsson >> Cc: int-area >> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. >> >> Hi Mikael, >> >> thanks for clarifying again, everything +1! >> >> Regards, >> Roland >> >> Am 31.03.2017 um 08:17 schrieb Mikael Abrahamsson: >>> On Thu, 30 Mar 2017, Khaled Omar wrote: >>> >>>> You can read the IPv10 I-D again and all your concerns will be >>>> obvious, I don't mind if you have already a series of new questions >>>> that will add a new value to the discussion but the time to deploy >>>> IPv10 is an important factor. >>>> >>>> We need consensus after understanding how IPv10 works and how it >>>> will be deployed. >>> >>> As has been stated again and again. Your proposal would have been >>> interesting if it was presented in 1995, or perhaps even in 2000. >>> >>> Let me give you an IPv6 deployment timeline: >>> >>> Standards were worked out in the mid 90-ties, afterwards operating >>> system vendors started working on it and "real" support started >>> cropping up in the early to mid 2000:nds, with a large milestone >>> being Windows Vista in 2006, where as far as I know this was the >>> first widely used consumer operating system to implement this. It >>> then took until Windows >>> 7 timeframe around 2010 before people started moving off of Windows >>> XP in ernest, and we're still seeing Windows XP in non-trivial numbers. >>> So now in 2017 we're seeing most operating systems have comprehensive >>> (albeit perhaps not as well-tested as we would like) support for >>> IPv6, where the application ecosystem still has a way to go. We're >>> still working on better APIs to handle the dual-stackedness problem. >>> >>> Most likely, even if Microsoft could be convinced that IPv10 is >>> something they need to support, this would only happen in Windows 10. >>> Then we have the rest of the ecosystem with access routers, load >>> balancers, SAVI-functionality for BCP38 compliance in access devices, >>> core routers etc. Most of these will require a hardware fork-lift in >>> order to support your proposal, because they do not forward packets >>> in a CPU, they forward it in purpose-designed hardware that is a lot >>> less flexible in what they can do. >>> >>> So even if we all united now (which won't happen) around your IPv10 >>> proposal, it would take 5-10 years before the first devices out on >>> the market had support for it. Probably 5-10 years after that before >>> support is widely available. >>> >>> IPv10 would delay and confuse deployment of something that is not IPv4. >>> While IPv6 is not perfect, there are now hundreds of millions of >>> devices on the Internet with IPv6 access. It's proven to work, it's >>> not perfect, but we have a decently good idea what to do to make it bet= ter. >>> >>> IPv10 is only injecting FUD into where we need to go debate, which is >>> IPv6 deployment for all. >>> >>> Please stop. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Int-area mailing list >> Int-area@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Int-area mailing list >> Int-area@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area --=20 SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Fri Mar 31 07:44:40 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72E82129401 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:44:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jczi0AY5yRi3 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:44:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B326A126B7F for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:44:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.189] (cpe-172-250-240-132.socal.res.rr.com [172.250.240.132]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v2VEhlCJ008503 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:43:49 -0700 (PDT) To: Mikael Abrahamsson , Khaled Omar References: Cc: int-area From: Joe Touch Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:43:46 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:44:38 -0000 On 3/30/2017 11:17 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > Let me give you an IPv6 deployment timeline: > > Standards were worked out in the mid 90-ties, afterwards operating > system vendors started working on it and "real" support started > cropping up in the early to mid 2000:nds, with a large milestone being > Windows Vista in 2006, where as far as I know this was the first > widely used consumer operating system to implement this. Both trivia and context: USC/ISI developed the first IPv6 stack for Windows NT, released publicly for testing in 1998: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1267217 It took another 8 years for a revised version to be deployed in Windows Vista to be widely available. 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBJbnQtYXJlYSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gSW50LWFy ZWFAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pbnQt YXJlYQ0KDQoNCg0KLS0NClNZLCBKZW4gTGlua292YSBha2EgRnVycnkNCg== From nobody Fri Mar 31 08:35:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BFC31299D5 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:35:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.395 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.395 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.796, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9oUtPrduicCM for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:35:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atl4mhob07.registeredsite.com (atl4mhob07.myregisteredsite.com [209.17.115.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2E43129A0A for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailpod.hostingplatform.com ([10.30.71.211]) by atl4mhob07.registeredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v2VFZJ0k008385 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:35:19 -0400 Received: (qmail 6536 invoked by uid 0); 31 Mar 2017 15:35:19 -0000 X-TCPREMOTEIP: 31.133.145.251 X-Authenticated-UID: lee@asgard.org Received: from unknown (HELO ?31.133.145.251?) (lee@asgard.org@31.133.145.251) by 0 with ESMTPA; 31 Mar 2017 15:35:18 -0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.7.2.170228 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 10:35:13 -0500 From: Lee Howard To: Khaled Omar , Jen Linkova CC: "int-area@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. References: <1d67d033-8a0f-c7eb-ae37-ec99f5a34660@kit.edu> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:35:37 -0000 On 3/31/17, 10:02 AM, "Int-area on behalf of Khaled Omar" wrote: >> So far many people mentioned to you that updating software on clients >>and on network devices is very expensive, complicated and slow process. > >SOFTWARE UPDATES are expensive, complicated and slow process ! Yes. Years, and hundreds or thousands of hours of expensive labor. See where I explained it yesterday at https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/int-area/current/msg05589.html And that=B9s if we stipulate that this can be done in software, which I don=B9t. I don=B9t see any evidence that you are gaining consensus. Jen=B9s suggestion was very good: develop a stack and get some deployment experience to show it can work. Lee From nobody Fri Mar 31 09:05:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DA34129532 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:05:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FPvsYo6o_dHc for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR03-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092070025.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.70.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A130B129474 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:05:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=i1PwB2JH81Frw2Yp3DkuDA8o8syXcpBekxGhHh3fzao=; b=mR406YCQLmFbZm+eS+JpnySXfGVly5AOf8CvEBN5b9urv7dg8jiugMFFx6dvGvGS7djTHuZ4Zq2kWNikf6hrtnzbfyv+mYmqfDuLEyF9zkIlK7rEVS8DnQckPExgkCsaDjGDX38PG1VfByoyfhoYejBbOyK2AofpflOHQt0FtPP9+AzfAynFInxIjNwrMhpqc85BdkR8+2lMfbYik0r6N+Py1/BfRjitnCRjRzt97jTO5dejwYCGX0XJM9kWPJLS+DvdkTDHLHZgFP+GDXzXftkPoYYq/b6Pg/wcZmi9pF3tKxB39aXTWCjMmfF7yser/xU86ntyZiAovDCQnw8gwQ== Received: from VE1EUR03FT056.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.18.60) by VE1EUR03HT060.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.19.26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.1005.5; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:05:27 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.18.56) by VE1EUR03FT056.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.19.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.1005.5 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:05:27 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) by AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) with mapi id 15.01.0991.023; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:05:27 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Lee Howard CC: "int-area@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. Thread-Index: AQHSqfSos1f70z39pEiy56Z0WIwUU6Gu1o4QgAApDICAAADwEIAABe2AgAAEzBCAAAmagIAACGdA Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:05:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1d67d033-8a0f-c7eb-ae37-ec99f5a34660@kit.edu> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: asgard.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;asgard.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:1A78267B4B73340F8AB0D76FF2A432B90B22C7EDA025532362F58B038B7C2870; UpperCasedChecksum:06AFB575ABB9430664ED0C42F6D9F11DB7323940FCC66E07C36AAA4051E90693; SizeAsReceived:8719; Count:42 x-tmn: [sILxgz4icmFvtYXEBPbCRjUsaPmA3UhK] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; VE1EUR03HT060; 5:mfZG7a/R/V+A+HrXBZd+IyK8QsQk7g13R3ox7VqsvSUb9Grd4OE2eT3Ba0Z+crJSBgnW2rAVTl6q+sbtjUI/AYejxdeu7+UWHlQA6G1uupIfzaHgJZzTYe14n82aTv+/8bDXmfv7jMazGuIatzPGFQ==; 24:9XQuzNLDzTbng/PSnt6ZIIyUXLNQPXGl1AVSngNnYQCeXTbj/q/HiTrXRfRlbXCt7mh0oeeqWBZEWN3aFeBAppzfAykXAMLafKYwV4NEqTE=; 7:6qYJ1ftoEfnX7nigtD900RmY9z1gr0sx7pe0qonZasJQZ7dlVHjgg/EkFF+MaL3eiJfBNVHn9qWfhNReQxVgcjGJsWrjoEAgs3vGPolAeWspo364WJMaueFFGnKVrsUpKu4eHftM1zt0g/Uv9PyAStnqQdGMTK1FlfikW/Sjo4gpmuWylAicv2wgBcolXwmcK0zUocWy5rQPnE4bOcS9xoRYKIloykzNDlKu5XjBg4mBe88JS8byhSvEg9com7KYmRSLsREJ6wQvS1Wln5jYmb/fna6Q0+Dh88gp/mPiCSrXXFJ769pAJ4LvYWKYhU4h x-incomingheadercount: 42 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(7070007)(98901004); DIR:OUT; SFP:1901; SCL:1; SRVR:VE1EUR03HT060; H:AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: ba30000c-1145-46dc-4491-08d4784fbf78 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(201702061074)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031322274)(1601125374)(1603101448)(1701031045); SRVR:VE1EUR03HT060; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(444000031); SRVR:VE1EUR03HT060; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:VE1EUR03HT060; x-forefront-prvs: 02638D901B spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 31 Mar 2017 16:05:27.5041 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VE1EUR03HT060 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:05:32 -0000 > I don=B9t see any evidence that you are gaining consensus. Jen=B9s sugges= tion was very good: develop a stack and get some deployment experience to s= how it can work. There are many people who likes IPv10 and support it, also I'm not a softwa= re developer who works for a company developing an OS, if you don't believe= that this idea works, you have to try it by yourself and get back to me wi= th the result and what was your problem, maybe you are not good in writing = codes or whatever. -----Original Message----- From: Lee Howard [mailto:lee@asgard.org]=20 Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 5:35 PM To: Khaled Omar; Jen Linkova Cc: int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. On 3/31/17, 10:02 AM, "Int-area on behalf of Khaled Omar" wrote: >> So far many people mentioned to you that updating software on clients=20 >>and on network devices is very expensive, complicated and slow process. > >SOFTWARE UPDATES are expensive, complicated and slow process ! Yes. Years, and hundreds or thousands of hours of expensive labor. See where I explained it yesterday at https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/int-area/current/msg05589.html And that=B9s if we stipulate that this can be done in software, which I don= =B9t. I don=B9t see any evidence that you are gaining consensus. Jen=B9s suggesti= on was very good: develop a stack and get some deployment experience to sho= w it can work. Lee From nobody Fri Mar 31 09:12:25 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B308612950C for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:12:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DQ9yAGd98SqA for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out.west.pexch112.icann.org (pfe112-ca-1.pexch112.icann.org [64.78.40.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0979124D37 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PMBX112-W1-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org (64.78.40.21) by PMBX112-W1-CA-2.pexch112.icann.org (64.78.40.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1178.4; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:12:19 -0700 Received: from PMBX112-W1-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org ([64.78.40.21]) by PMBX112-W1-CA-1.PEXCH112.ICANN.ORG ([64.78.40.21]) with mapi id 15.00.1178.000; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:12:19 -0700 From: Terry Manderson To: Khaled Omar , Lee Howard CC: "int-area@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. Thread-Index: AQHSqfSiKSlxm86P00OSlELeuOdceqGvUcwAgAAjJ4CAAAFqgIAABXOAgAAFJoCAAAlAgIAACHKAgACpjgA= Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:12:19 +0000 Message-ID: <659D8C70-B6F9-46C7-AA9E-669C9DC8C7F4@icann.org> References: <1d67d033-8a0f-c7eb-ae37-ec99f5a34660@kit.edu> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.20.0.170309 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [192.0.32.234] Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="B_3573857538_1814742108" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:12:24 -0000 --B_3573857538_1814742108 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Khaleed, I would like to highlight a well-known idiom in the IETF, about the IETF. "Rough consensus and running code" The means that not only does one need to demonstrate the benefits of their = idea in a working implementation (a protocol stack in this case), and really= the onus is on you to have a cohort of people about you to develop that sta= ck if you alone do not have the skills, but then also to gain consensus of t= he IETF as to the technology in question. I feel like the discussion so far is diverging into an academic free-for-al= l without seeing something more tangible than the current state. Cheers Terry INT Area AD. On 1/04/2017, 2:05 AM, "Int-area on behalf of Khaled Omar" wrote: > I don=C2=B9t see any evidence that you are gaining consensus. Jen=C2=B9s sugg= estion was very good: develop a stack and get some deployment experience to = show it can work. =20 There are many people who likes IPv10 and support it, also I'm not a so= ftware developer who works for a company developing an OS, if you don't beli= eve that this idea works, you have to try it by yourself and get back to me = with the result and what was your problem, maybe you are not good in writing= codes or whatever. =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Lee Howard [mailto:lee@asgard.org]=20 Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 5:35 PM To: Khaled Omar; Jen Linkova Cc: int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. =20 =20 =20 On 3/31/17, 10:02 AM, "Int-area on behalf of Khaled Omar" wr= ote: =20 >> So far many people mentioned to you that updating software on client= s=20 >>and on network devices is very expensive, complicated and slow proces= s. > >SOFTWARE UPDATES are expensive, complicated and slow process ! =20 Yes. Years, and hundreds or thousands of hours of expensive labor. See where I explained it yesterday at https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/int-area/current/msg05589.html =20 And that=C2=B9s if we stipulate that this can be done in software, which I = don=C2=B9t. =20 I don=C2=B9t see any evidence that you are gaining consensus. Jen=C2=B9s sugges= tion was very good: develop a stack and get some deployment experience to sh= ow it can work. =20 Lee =20 =20 _______________________________________________ Int-area mailing list Int-area@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area =20 --B_3573857538_1814742108 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIIYwwYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIYtDCCGLACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMAsGCSqGSIb3DQEHAaCC FowwggV0MIIEXKADAgECAhAJ0fxYYYV36W1njUywVtW8MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMGUxCzAJ BgNVBAYTAlVTMRUwEwYDVQQKEwxEaWdpQ2VydCBJbmMxGTAXBgNVBAsTEHd3dy5kaWdpY2Vy dC5jb20xJDAiBgNVBAMTG0RpZ2lDZXJ0IFNIQTIgQXNzdXJlZCBJRCBDQTAeFw0xNTAzMjYw MDAwMDBaFw0xODAzMjYxMjAwMDBaMIGQMQswCQYDVQQGEwJVUzETMBEGA1UECBMKQ2FsaWZv cm5pYTEUMBIGA1UEBxMLTG9zIEFuZ2VsZXMxPDA6BgNVBAoTM0ludGVybmV0IENvcnBvcmF0 aW9uIGZvciBBc3NpZ25lZCBOYW1lcyBhbmQgTnVtYmVyczEYMBYGA1UEAxMPVGVycnkgTWFu 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[IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:f4d9:cd67:508c:b7a7] claimed to be dhcp-87c5.meeting.ietf.org To: Khaled Omar , Lee Howard References: <1d67d033-8a0f-c7eb-ae37-ec99f5a34660@kit.edu> Cc: "int-area@ietf.org" From: joel jaeggli Message-ID: <688d884a-5fd6-6f97-f7b9-8af30d6d8b8e@bogus.com> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:18:32 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ad6oWPMrolT8CnO6NOemkijtUp0TOPPnR" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:18:43 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --ad6oWPMrolT8CnO6NOemkijtUp0TOPPnR Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="xlN1nQ725rnw7XafOnrCpKDbTi3fMkgFL"; protected-headers="v1" From: joel jaeggli To: Khaled Omar , Lee Howard Cc: "int-area@ietf.org" Message-ID: <688d884a-5fd6-6f97-f7b9-8af30d6d8b8e@bogus.com> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. References: <1d67d033-8a0f-c7eb-ae37-ec99f5a34660@kit.edu> In-Reply-To: --xlN1nQ725rnw7XafOnrCpKDbTi3fMkgFL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/31/17 11:05, Khaled Omar wrote: >> I don=B9t see any evidence that you are gaining consensus. Jen=B9s >> suggestion was very good: develop a stack and get some deployment >> experience to show it can work. >=20 > There are many people who likes IPv10 and support it, also I'm not a > software developer who works for a company developing an OS, if you > don't believe that this idea works, you have to try it by yourself > and get back to me with the result and what was your problem, maybe > you are not good in writing codes or whatever. Ad Hominem arguments are not acceptable basis for discource here or elsewhere in the IETF. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7154 Thanks joel --xlN1nQ725rnw7XafOnrCpKDbTi3fMkgFL-- --ad6oWPMrolT8CnO6NOemkijtUp0TOPPnR Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iEYEARECAAYFAljegVgACgkQ8AA1q7Z/VrIm1wCdGPwdUFibVO4xLH1ptFUYnR7A BqYAnA1YMBJIShC3UZOYGvLBGROW/ohz =p/Rl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ad6oWPMrolT8CnO6NOemkijtUp0TOPPnR-- From nobody Fri Mar 31 09:19:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1821A12998D for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:19:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id diIFJ43Jsdq3 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:19:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x22f.google.com (mail-io0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E3471296B8 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:19:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id b140so42823736iof.1 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:19:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ze5apU23SzVb2ufgaEpikC9yBJ0dJsb6sMjeB4RzHpI=; b=kMsnHWVU1VeNqfEYJIt50InWY3425yV6VLqPUI2tX397j9Nwvmi2hz7+OlVNzgV3Zy 4mrF9XIGCHVeMkXkrvB74aRV7/rcXlkODA5zoOJj76kxG4H53AZgvcKIVMJf3xUww0rh 8/VUVi5R/SyTKO77KBxj9yF3iXDidG2p440bd7OKQxJTcr0hoBnjBKuWK31qCe/mlHLG /JNcCn7cCdxyjMzUAx7/meEWrsABoiDkD1o4Jj8mvQt+dJclyttUxDATjn7ndF1UFmYG R3VlWLwxdjJ3PHZFcexrBF1vAkK6WniF5+sYdA5YGm645SLQPNV1qkqC4bzco7uvopyc fLNw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ze5apU23SzVb2ufgaEpikC9yBJ0dJsb6sMjeB4RzHpI=; b=cOwoK5GhYpehIvF0S1sHk+Myop5aeYLz/CShP0WZn337i8achK2x46zvqbfnhdS1uK bN7LXyUWfOpD0oEa75rE0iQ+BOqYfmpq1+2MMkYjGzKRJFuR1VPrWsHqfdC+AH/k7Tf1 qu5L2LVmDZUj77iJdv961+9KkLvHBLsRYiVyQNdzN4VKQXWd5BzSglA9yo8nqHIobedo h3YeZ09YguDXSMER1Bslx3F0haLz5aWJnrhTLuKzGUgPF068Qkhe9J4RA4yobprNkvxp SibNnN+H1eSFxoJzwPhnuUIcG4vSSbc/jshr3OiLEApllBMUO66F+DvD74NkyhI4FtqR smyw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H1y+TQuiVo3+GUY+iAgshz7SV+RrMtfViD1WZLJbG17gG+W1Pvrqhjl2VWPm6p9bTfWvJwktX2u5EEmYA== X-Received: by 10.107.136.96 with SMTP id k93mr3875421iod.20.1490977153855; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:19:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.184.197 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:18:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1d67d033-8a0f-c7eb-ae37-ec99f5a34660@kit.edu> From: Jen Linkova Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 18:18:53 +0200 Message-ID: To: Khaled Omar Cc: Lee Howard , "int-area@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:19:19 -0000 On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 6:05 PM, Khaled Omar wrote: >> I don=C2=B9t see any evidence that you are gaining consensus. Jen=C2=B9s= suggestion was very good: develop a stack and get some deployment experien= ce to show it can work. > > There are many people who likes IPv10 and support it, Not on that (or any other IETF) mailing list obviously. I have not seen any single support message so far but at least ten people told you that they do not support the idea. >also I'm not a software developer who works for a company developing an OS= , But you claim that developing/updating software is simple and can be done very quickly...Well, then you have to find someone who is supporting your idea and willing to prove that your idea works. >if you don't believe that this idea works, you have to try it by yourself = and get back to me with the result LOL ;) This thread is getting more and more hilarious. No, it's not how it works. We don't have to. If you want you idea to be supported you need to convince the community that the idea is good and would work. To do this you need to demonstrate it. If you are not willing to do that - nobody would support your idea, IPv10 draft would not move forward and we all go back to deploying IPv6 >and what was your problem, maybe you are not good in writing codes or what= ever. I fail to see how our ability/skills in writing code matters in this case. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lee Howard [mailto:lee@asgard.org] > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 5:35 PM > To: Khaled Omar; Jen Linkova > Cc: int-area@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. > > > > On 3/31/17, 10:02 AM, "Int-area on behalf of Khaled Omar" > wrot= e: > >>> So far many people mentioned to you that updating software on clients >>>and on network devices is very expensive, complicated and slow process. >> >>SOFTWARE UPDATES are expensive, complicated and slow process ! > > Yes. Years, and hundreds or thousands of hours of expensive labor. > See where I explained it yesterday at > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/int-area/current/msg05589.html > > And that=C2=B9s if we stipulate that this can be done in software, which = I don=C2=B9t. > > I don=C2=B9t see any evidence that you are gaining consensus. Jen=C2=B9s = suggestion was very good: develop a stack and get some deployment experienc= e to show it can work. > > Lee > > > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area --=20 SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Fri Mar 31 09:23:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFB4412998B for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:22:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SFf9HsrL_idc for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atl4mhob14.registeredsite.com (atl4mhob14.myregisteredsite.com [209.17.115.52]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC299129A31 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:22:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailpod.hostingplatform.com ([10.30.71.206]) by atl4mhob14.registeredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v2VGMpXi028745 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:22:51 -0400 Received: (qmail 12747 invoked by uid 0); 31 Mar 2017 16:22:51 -0000 X-TCPREMOTEIP: 31.133.145.251 X-Authenticated-UID: lee@asgard.org Received: from unknown (HELO ?31.133.145.251?) (lee@asgard.org@31.133.145.251) by 0 with ESMTPA; 31 Mar 2017 16:22:50 -0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.7.2.170228 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:22:44 -0500 From: Lee Howard To: Khaled Omar CC: "int-area@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. References: <1d67d033-8a0f-c7eb-ae37-ec99f5a34660@kit.edu> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="EUC-KR" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:23:00 -0000 On 3/31/17, 11:05 AM, "Khaled Omar" wrote: >> I don=A9=F6t see any evidence that you are gaining consensus. Jen=A9=F6s >>suggestion was very good: develop a stack and get some deployment >>experience to show it can work. > >There are many people who likes IPv10 and support it, We need to hear from them. >also I'm not a software developer who works for a company developing an >OS, if you don't believe that this idea works, you have to try it by >yourself and get back to me with the result and what was your problem, >maybe you are not good in writing codes or whatever. I should spend time on something I don=A1=AFt think will work? The IETF runs on rough consensus and running code. This internet-draft has neither. That doesn=A1=AFt mean your contribution is unwelcome, but you shouldn't become so attached to an idea that you can=A1=AFt let it go when it doesn=A1=AFt have support. Lee From nobody Fri Mar 31 09:26:05 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 217431296E8 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:25:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lhHdS6loTxBj for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.bortzmeyer.org (aetius.bortzmeyer.org [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc0:41:216:3eff:fece:1902]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B08A1296DC for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id C191831C7D; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 18:25:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: by godin (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 89CDEEC0B59; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 18:24:01 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:24:01 -0500 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Tom Herbert Cc: int-area@ietf.org Message-ID: <20170331162401.GA20580@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> References: <1d67d033-8a0f-c7eb-ae37-ec99f5a34660@kit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Ubuntu 16.04 (xenial) X-Charlie: Je suis Charlie User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:25:59 -0000 On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 07:19:07AM -0700, Tom Herbert wrote a message of 102 lines which said: > Please provide an implementation so we can evaluate the prospects. I volunteer for the IPv10 project at the Prague hackathon :-) From nobody Fri Mar 31 09:34:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FAB8129531 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:34:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FpXsJPKSX6Xn for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:34:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR02-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092069070.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.69.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3910B129474 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:34:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=EwET9etjp2riif548z04GwcUAECEMPdPwhALk1VxWmg=; b=tSQ4bTqmdhrTvAAdKb6hnCNTvn6r0XaARs9z6oYmoP2CHbAypD0Kek6w6p6igzP7hmKlZi+yLu9keia6RYT2kdkr4Xp673LSrKK6BiERk4S5uBIlei2O6hM0lRHnT7pAPHX37nOtgIknZsy9wvj3CRo520lIxP1f6K3wEGMmtj5l2oynQhJw+DS/SoG8DocQQEphbSOfamxtmPU59cjB59oESeqZDWwAGxlRQ7egVpWbX5EOuzApjJinSQqHpZcdtgCCzSA7JCBAhc34+p2uCWQwooWsZw8K2OOYlWMY1OcnWr2+NyRsfSdOpGUK5DL1PTmFgpngNnJ1jTnZuYU2SQ== Received: from HE1EUR02FT028.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.10.54) by HE1EUR02HT083.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.11.232) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.1005.5; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:34:50 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.10.54) by HE1EUR02FT028.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.10.102) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.1005.5 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:34:50 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) by AM4PR0401MB2241.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.165.44.150]) with mapi id 15.01.0991.023; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:34:49 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Terry Manderson CC: "int-area@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. 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Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:04:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q8pN5G7L4bSm for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linfre.de (linfre.de [83.151.26.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF269128DF6 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linne.localnet (91.248.158.223) by linfreserv (Axigen) with (ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted) ESMTPSA id 06B877; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 20:04:36 +0200 From: Karsten Thomann To: int-area@ietf.org Message-ID: <3978103.THZhjosh1Q@linne> User-Agent: KMail/4.13.0.22 (Windows/6.1; KDE/4.14.3; i686; git-c97962a; 2016-07-14) In-Reply-To: References: <659D8C70-B6F9-46C7-AA9E-669C9DC8C7F4@icann.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Received-SPF: none (linne.localnet: linne.localnet does not designate permitted sender hosts) client-ip=91.248.158.223; helo=linne.localnet; mechanism=default; identity=helo; receiver=linfreserv; X-AXIGEN-SPF-Result: No records X-AXIGEN-DK-Result: No records DomainKey-Status: no signature Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 18:04:41 -0000 Khaled, you've already confirmed that your protocol requires changes for nearly= all=20 devices and we told you that it isn't possible to convince many vendor = to=20 support a third protocol. We all know that IPv6 isn't perfect, but creating an additional protoco= l isn't=20 solving any deployment problem with IPv6. Please stop trying to convince us to further discuss your draft until t= here is=20 a major change and a, at leat experimental, implementation from people = which=20 think that your idea is working. Within the "short" time I'm reading some IETF mailing lists, I can't re= member=20 any draft with such strong opposition. And I'm now stopping to discuss this draft any further until there are = new=20 arguments. Am Freitag, 31. M=E4rz 2017, 16:34:49 schrieb Khaled Omar: > Terry >=20 >=20 > > I feel like the discussion so far is diverging into an academic > > free-for-all without seeing something more tangible than the curren= t > > state. >=20 > Ask the ietf about this, I've developed IPv10 on August, 2014 before = the > problem takes that level after the consecutive announcements of IPv4 > address space depletion. =20 > I'm expecting +10 years for my second ID (KHALED Routing Protocol "KR= P") to > be standardized. =20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Manderson [mailto:terry.manderson@icann.org]=20 > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 6:12 PM > To: Khaled Omar; Lee Howard > Cc: int-area@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. >=20 > Khaleed, >=20 > I would like to highlight a well-known idiom in the IETF, about the I= ETF. >=20 > "Rough consensus and running code" >=20 > The means that not only does one need to demonstrate the benefits of = their > idea in a working implementation (a protocol stack in this case), and= > really the onus is on you to have a cohort of people about you to dev= elop > that stack if you alone do not have the skills, but then also to gain= > consensus of the IETF as to the technology in question. =20 > I feel like the discussion so far is diverging into an academic free-= for-all > without seeing something more tangible than the current state. =20 > Cheers > Terry > INT Area AD. >=20 > On 1/04/2017, 2:05 AM, "Int-area on behalf of Khaled Omar" > > wrote: =20 >=20 > > I don=B9t see any evidence that you are gaining consensus. Jen=B9= s > > suggestion was very good: develop a stack and get some deployme= nt > > experience to show it can work. > =20 > There are many people who likes IPv10 and support it, also I'm no= t a > software developer who works for a company developing an OS, if you d= on't > believe that this idea works, you have to try it by yourself and get = back > to me with the result and what was your problem, maybe you are not go= od in > writing codes or whatever. =20 > =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Lee Howard [mailto:lee@asgard.org]=20 > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 5:35 PM > To: Khaled Omar; Jen Linkova > Cc: int-area@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. > =20 > =20 > =20 > On 3/31/17, 10:02 AM, "Int-area on behalf of Khaled Omar" > > wrote: =20 >=20 > >> So far many people mentioned to you that updating software on = clients > >>=20 > >> > >>and on network devices is very expensive, complicated and slow > >>process. > > > > > >SOFTWARE UPDATES are expensive, complicated and slow process ! >=20 > =20 > Yes. Years, and hundreds or thousands of hours of expensive labor= . > See where I explained it yesterday at > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/int-area/current/msg05589.h= tml > =20 > And that=B9s if we stipulate that this can be done in software, w= hich I > don=B9t. =20 > I don=B9t see any evidence that you are gaining consensus. Jen=B9= s > suggestion was very good: develop a stack and get some deployment > experience to show it can work. =20 > Lee > =20 > =20 > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > =20 > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area From nobody Fri Mar 31 13:44:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A6B712944A for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 13:44:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x-qD7Snw1eiX for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 13:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR01-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-oln040092064104.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.64.104]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7821C12702E for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 13:44:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=yAv+hfMEiWpoKlmMwEs+MQJW57N5ZszybXps8T+Unpo=; b=hLUA1MR1ONvY+vfVfbW51LUK6JA1pFttKjBM8Gv2pEV+wUgB6vrQKBtDmDTQAld9/wUAssyzvhZFWrW48YuJTZOXCgHvuP9I1zY5HASZKNrLi1Z3WLw+LNGt9ticYypjhy8FF5KoT5JzJgnbonmqw15T/vVk/wP7E+vbjrETW5qUuVPfy03rIGeMr/UJeZdq9USj9pFnUO0CxcLuD9frKP8XlHDU7+zEjXtoWb5bKuWBp6z4FFZV1MrkP4jlPLOGXu5vBNKgnNviCWaBVXEWho85df/RVriqgo3gjbS6T3nAIoP6G5kEtH4coh8BJke62/Ggl780gOXi840zG0cewg== Received: from DB5EUR01FT049.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.4.55) by DB5EUR01HT209.eop-EUR01.prod.protection.outlook.com (10.152.5.152) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.977.7; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 20:44:03 +0000 Received: from DB6PR0401MB2248.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (10.152.4.59) by DB5EUR01FT049.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.5.138) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1005.5 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 20:44:03 +0000 Received: from DB6PR0401MB2248.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.168.54.26]) by DB6PR0401MB2248.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com ([10.168.54.26]) with mapi id 15.01.1005.014; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 20:44:03 +0000 From: Khaled Omar To: Karsten Thomann CC: "int-area@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. Thread-Index: AQHSqfSos1f70z39pEiy56Z0WIwUU6Gu1o4QgAApDICAAADwEIAABe2AgAAEzBCAAAmagIAACGdAgAAB94CAAATzUIAAGm+AgAApjTA= Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 20:44:03 +0000 Message-ID: References: <659D8C70-B6F9-46C7-AA9E-669C9DC8C7F4@icann.org> <3978103.THZhjosh1Q@linne> In-Reply-To: <3978103.THZhjosh1Q@linne> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: linfre.de; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;linfre.de; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:6939440CDB77B7B99693711D97AF3F70783780B6E4BE3F8BF88DE4A939C38380; UpperCasedChecksum:1B84651DD2E19B31910F66FE6BBAE58D3880C39B5A644D5A48ECF101DF0E4C26; SizeAsReceived:8293; Count:42 x-tmn: [Nb+KRsAmEE4Snf04mhOIH0HfVoyPkZXk] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DB5EUR01HT209; 5:+Ql0kx3BPtDoqpLu01mf4Lw6UqknW4Q+qvPp7PFCmNgG7m/uwixC/c8KWgYHl5ldiQ0xeEKJzb+jPmk8Xav8v9WNcyouWQpi/MQEyMQjq/NvSIk5eUASvwEqBPjFp2WexhPiJzBxEy2hn84aT/lSSA==; 24:okFH+rBRJJbki8v8QbNcoaMyu/u0sUrBp+U7DQiDNA2bmoMGJktFBixGFeqYlA0scOWmMInR4INe1bKAyuD3vZkWGY9WuwIq0OYLCnCrRHA=; 7:6N3wcqPbt58z5ardhVuIgWX1hAFQrj9IbXlPNBGoem8vJE7ZsWxUsY/Jyv7fhmsfCVxZJ/QkCUcN9PA3lxMkYGE5O97OVPu9bT16/bI+WOE1xDcbTgRSrGZd9G4N7Oi9rHr/nuj326xg5u2kseRpX3r1nHrZEG5R8heWlxVotttmuhqexOFHO0wDNHQ8Ruez8JfZvgWde9aw7gDyDeg4dZzRLF66BA0TF1nbr47ID4tJ9XMXNmjrIqoPVInsAYZRCMje0w3yX2Xpd4acVw1O6mXugh+aR3PClv6nzHwTGbVoiMTb9erNXBcMHusyB0Sl x-incomingheadercount: 42 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; SFS:(7070007)(98901004); DIR:OUT; SFP:1901; SCL:1; SRVR:DB5EUR01HT209; H:DB6PR0401MB2248.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 65b4f6e2-c541-4e02-e4a9-08d47876aae0 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(201702061074)(5061506573)(5061507331)(1603103135)(2017031320274)(2017031322274)(1603101448)(1601125374)(1701031045); SRVR:DB5EUR01HT209; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(444000031); SRVR:DB5EUR01HT209; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:DB5EUR01HT209; x-forefront-prvs: 02638D901B spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 31 Mar 2017 20:44:03.3240 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB5EUR01HT209 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 20:44:08 -0000 Karsten, > you've already confirmed that your protocol requires changes for nearly a= ll devices and we told you that it isn't possible to convince many vendor t= o support a third protocol. If you mean by Vendors the few number to technology companies, then be sure= that this small "update" will be easy for them to deploy based on how they= work, IPv10 is not considered as a 3rd protocol, it is as mentioned in the= I-D a solution, we will still have only IPv4 and IPv6, they will not disap= pear and no more protocol will be added to them. > We all know that IPv6 isn't perfect, but creating an additional protocol = isn't solving any deployment problem with IPv6. IPv10 will solve the problem of IPv6 lack of deployment globally, because I= Pv10 will enable all Internet connected hosts from different version to be = able to communicate, and let the migration process takes its time, once ful= l migration will occur, forget about IPv10, the whole Internet will be IPv6= networks, but now, IPv10 will avoid the division of the Internet into two = parts. > Please stop trying to convince us to further discuss your draft until the= re is a major change and a, at leat experimental, implementation from peopl= e which think that your idea is working. I'm not trying to convince all of you, who is seriously interested and unde= rstand the added value simply can participate, Internet is a global network= that all are using, don't tell me that the division will occur for a speci= fic people and not the others, it is a global problem that should be solved= for all, if you don't care about the solution, simply don't participate, n= o one will force you to do something that you don't want to do. > And I'm now stopping to discuss this draft any further until there are ne= w arguments. You are free to do what you want, but don't make a late decision of partici= pation before the I-D will be published, because you will not be welcomed i= n that late time, so make up your decision now and your decision is welcome= regardless what it is. -----Original Message----- From: Karsten Thomann [mailto:karsten_thomann@linfre.de]=20 Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 8:05 PM To: int-area@ietf.org Cc: Khaled Omar Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. Khaled, you've already confirmed that your protocol requires changes for nearly all= devices and we told you that it isn't possible to convince many vendor to = support a third protocol. We all know that IPv6 isn't perfect, but creating an additional protocol is= n't solving any deployment problem with IPv6. Please stop trying to convince us to further discuss your draft until there= is a major change and a, at leat experimental, implementation from people = which think that your idea is working. Within the "short" time I'm reading some IETF mailing lists, I can't rememb= er any draft with such strong opposition. And I'm now stopping to discuss this draft any further until there are new = arguments. Am Freitag, 31. M=E4rz 2017, 16:34:49 schrieb Khaled Omar: > Terry >=20 >=20 > > I feel like the discussion so far is diverging into an academic > > free-for-all without seeing something more tangible than the current > > state. >=20 > Ask the ietf about this, I've developed IPv10 on August, 2014 before the > problem takes that level after the consecutive announcements of IPv4 > address space depletion. =20 > I'm expecting +10 years for my second ID (KHALED Routing Protocol "KRP") = to > be standardized. =20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Manderson [mailto:terry.manderson@icann.org]=20 > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 6:12 PM > To: Khaled Omar; Lee Howard > Cc: int-area@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. >=20 > Khaleed, >=20 > I would like to highlight a well-known idiom in the IETF, about the IETF. >=20 > "Rough consensus and running code" >=20 > The means that not only does one need to demonstrate the benefits of thei= r > idea in a working implementation (a protocol stack in this case), and > really the onus is on you to have a cohort of people about you to develop > that stack if you alone do not have the skills, but then also to gain > consensus of the IETF as to the technology in question. =20 > I feel like the discussion so far is diverging into an academic free-for-= all > without seeing something more tangible than the current state. =20 > Cheers > Terry > INT Area AD. >=20 > On 1/04/2017, 2:05 AM, "Int-area on behalf of Khaled Omar" > > wrote: =20 >=20 > > I don=B9t see any evidence that you are gaining consensus. Jen=B9s > > suggestion was very good: develop a stack and get some deployment > > experience to show it can work. > =20 > There are many people who likes IPv10 and support it, also I'm not a > software developer who works for a company developing an OS, if you don't > believe that this idea works, you have to try it by yourself and get back > to me with the result and what was your problem, maybe you are not good i= n > writing codes or whatever. =20 > =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Lee Howard [mailto:lee@asgard.org]=20 > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 5:35 PM > To: Khaled Omar; Jen Linkova > Cc: int-area@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. > =20 > =20 > =20 > On 3/31/17, 10:02 AM, "Int-area on behalf of Khaled Omar" > > wrote: =20 >=20 > >> So far many people mentioned to you that updating software on clie= nts > >>=20 > >> > >>and on network devices is very expensive, complicated and slow > >>process. > > > > > >SOFTWARE UPDATES are expensive, complicated and slow process ! >=20 > =20 > Yes. Years, and hundreds or thousands of hours of expensive labor. > See where I explained it yesterday at > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/int-area/current/msg05589.html > =20 > And that=B9s if we stipulate that this can be done in software, which= I > don=B9t. =20 > I don=B9t see any evidence that you are gaining consensus. Jen=B9s > suggestion was very good: develop a stack and get some deployment > experience to show it can work. =20 > Lee > =20 > =20 > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > =20 > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area From nobody Fri Mar 31 22:11:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE266128CFF for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 22:11:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZS9E9e2DQOTJ for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 22:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50998127275 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 22:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mb.local ([75.104.70.255]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v315B8vu081866 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Sat, 1 Apr 2017 05:11:16 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) X-Authentication-Warning: nagasaki.bogus.com: Host [75.104.70.255] claimed to be mb.local To: Khaled Omar , Tom Herbert References: <1d67d033-8a0f-c7eb-ae37-ec99f5a34660@kit.edu> Cc: "int-area@ietf.org" From: joel jaeggli Message-ID: <5fbcf078-4e05-3ea8-01a8-e0228659eb86@bogus.com> Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 00:11:01 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="288MDKoWAtForrnFeQmT7AmBUkLBaKdrO" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 05:11:26 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --288MDKoWAtForrnFeQmT7AmBUkLBaKdrO Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="wsusI09bdCO9dg3FweIuJBTfARIhDNaWf"; protected-headers="v1" From: joel jaeggli To: Khaled Omar , Tom Herbert Cc: "int-area@ietf.org" Message-ID: <5fbcf078-4e05-3ea8-01a8-e0228659eb86@bogus.com> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. References: <1d67d033-8a0f-c7eb-ae37-ec99f5a34660@kit.edu> In-Reply-To: --wsusI09bdCO9dg3FweIuJBTfARIhDNaWf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/31/17 09:24, Khaled Omar wrote: >> "all OSs will be updated to support IPv10 which is an easy >> task"... >>> What makes you think it is ever an easy task to get all OSes to >>> uniformly support anything? Please provide an implementation so >>> we can evaluate the prospects. >=20 > For the 2nd time: >=20 > "I shouldn't list all devices that need to support IPv10, simply, > anything will process a L3 packet, should understand that the IPv10 > packet can contain a mixture of IPv4 and IPv6 addresses." Assuming for the sake of argument that I am designing a forwarding asic. When I pass over the ethertype code in the frame, I decide what forwarding lookup path I am going to exercise the ipv4 or ipv6 one. If i choose door number 1 the ipv4 path due to 0x0800 and destination mac being me the byte offset for the source is 12 and the destination is 4 bytes later at byte offset 16. if these fields are of variable length then a 16 byte source address overflows the fixed offset where the destination is supposed and the destination address is lost to me because it's where optional fields might otherwise be. If I choose the v6 path due to 0x86DD then I find the source address address at byte 8 and the destination beginning at byte 24 there, there are of course several ways to represent a an ipv4 mapped address within ipv6, none of them are of any use to an native ipv4 speaker. The fields in the packet header are not self-described (they could be, packet header could be json for example but in the interest of performance they were / are not), therefore in the interestes of clarity a new ethertype for ipv10 with either a fixed size source and destination address size or a whay of specifying the offset, and a bit or multiple bit field for the AF of both the source and destination would greatly facilitate the design of a parser that would be able to handle the selection of AF for lookup. at the point you've go an entirely new header which is not compatible with either V4 or V6 parsers. in practical terms that means the useful deployment of a v10 compatible parser at internet scale is approximately as hard as deploying the the v6 compatible parser would be if we started now instead of in 1995 when the internet was much smaller. joel >=20 > -----Original Message----- From: Tom Herbert > [mailto:tom@herbertland.com] Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 4:19 PM To: > Khaled Omar Cc: Bless, Roland (TM); int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: > [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D discussion. >=20 > On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 5:13 AM, Khaled Omar > wrote: >>> As has been stated again and again. Your proposal would have been >>> interesting if it was presented in 1995, or perhaps even in >>> 2000. >>=20 >> FYI, IPv10 will allow IPv4 to communicate to IPv6 and vice versa, >> how can it be interesting if it was presented before IPv6 was even >> developed ! >>=20 >>> Most likely, even if Microsoft could be convinced that IPv10 is >>> something they need to support, this would only happen in Windows >>> 10. Then we have the rest of the ecosystem with access routers, >>> load balancers, SAVI-functionality for BCP38 compliance in access >>> devices, core routers etc. >>=20 >> Please, let's not be against ourselves, all OSs will be updated to >> support IPv10 which is an easy task, OSs will not require support >> for a new IP version like IPv6, they will just be enabled to >> support the encapsulation of both version on the same L3 packet >> header. >=20 > "all OSs will be updated to support IPv10 which is an easy task"...=20 > What makes you think it is ever an easy task to get all OSes to > uniformly support anything? Please provide an implementation so we > can evaluate the prospects. >=20 > Tom >=20 >>=20 >> Also, networking devices will be upgraded to understand the new >> IPv10 packet, I said earlier I don't mind If the process will take >> some time but we should eventually reach consensus, I shouldn't >> list all devices that need to support IPv10, simply, anything will >> process a L3 packet, should understand that the IPv10 packet can >> contain a mixture of IPv4 and IPv6 addresses. >>=20 >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- From: Int-area >> [mailto:int-area-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bless, Roland (TM)=20 >> Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 9:51 AM To: Mikael Abrahamsson Cc: >> int-area Subject: Re: [Int-area] Fw: Continuing IPv10 I-D >> discussion. >>=20 >> Hi Mikael, >>=20 >> thanks for clarifying again, everything +1! >>=20 >> Regards, Roland >>=20 >> Am 31.03.2017 um 08:17 schrieb Mikael Abrahamsson: >>> On Thu, 30 Mar 2017, Khaled Omar wrote: >>>=20 >>>> You can read the IPv10 I-D again and all your concerns will be >>>> obvious, I don't mind if you have already a series of new >>>> questions that will add a new value to the discussion but the >>>> time to deploy IPv10 is an important factor. >>>>=20 >>>> We need consensus after understanding how IPv10 works and how >>>> it will be deployed. >>>=20 >>> As has been stated again and again. Your proposal would have been >>> interesting if it was presented in 1995, or perhaps even in >>> 2000. >>>=20 >>> Let me give you an IPv6 deployment timeline: >>>=20 >>> Standards were worked out in the mid 90-ties, afterwards >>> operating system vendors started working on it and "real" support >>> started cropping up in the early to mid 2000:nds, with a large >>> milestone being Windows Vista in 2006, where as far as I know >>> this was the first widely used consumer operating system to >>> implement this. It then took until Windows 7 timeframe around >>> 2010 before people started moving off of Windows XP in ernest, >>> and we're still seeing Windows XP in non-trivial numbers. So now >>> in 2017 we're seeing most operating systems have comprehensive=20 >>> (albeit perhaps not as well-tested as we would like) support for >>> IPv6, where the application ecosystem still has a way to go. >>> We're still working on better APIs to handle the dual-stackedness >>> problem. >>>=20 >>> Most likely, even if Microsoft could be convinced that IPv10 is=20 >>> something they need to support, this would only happen in Windows >>> 10. Then we have the rest of the ecosystem with access routers, >>> load balancers, SAVI-functionality for BCP38 compliance in access >>> devices, core routers etc. Most of these will require a hardware >>> fork-lift in order to support your proposal, because they do not >>> forward packets in a CPU, they forward it in purpose-designed >>> hardware that is a lot less flexible in what they can do. >>>=20 >>> So even if we all united now (which won't happen) around your >>> IPv10 proposal, it would take 5-10 years before the first devices >>> out on the market had support for it. Probably 5-10 years after >>> that before support is widely available. >>>=20 >>> IPv10 would delay and confuse deployment of something that is not >>> IPv4. While IPv6 is not perfect, there are now hundreds of >>> millions of devices on the Internet with IPv6 access. It's proven >>> to work, it's not perfect, but we have a decently good idea what >>> to do to make it better. >>>=20 >>> IPv10 is only injecting FUD into where we need to go debate, >>> which is IPv6 deployment for all. >>>=20 >>> Please stop. >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ Int-area mailing >> list Int-area@ietf.org=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ Int-area mailing >> list Int-area@ietf.org=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > _______________________________________________ Int-area mailing > list Int-area@ietf.org=20 > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area >=20 --wsusI09bdCO9dg3FweIuJBTfARIhDNaWf-- --288MDKoWAtForrnFeQmT7AmBUkLBaKdrO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iEYEARECAAYFAljfNmYACgkQ8AA1q7Z/VrKMUACeIf5Um0VYCQjKI5fx5vQMrnM/ WZcAnigq86rdoltHPjKgWZXdCiUhjXMN =D0Mx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --288MDKoWAtForrnFeQmT7AmBUkLBaKdrO--