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From: "Manfredi, Albert E" <Albert.Manfredi@PHL.Boeing.com>
To: "ION Group (E-mail)" <ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com>
Subject: (ION) Optical routing
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:14:01 -0400
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Hi IONers. Anyone still out there?

Just for grins, did anyone see the articles in this month's IEEE
Communications Magazine, about IP over optical networks? It's the same old
issues all over again. Basically, you have IP over a circuit-switched
network again. They do offer different approaches, including having the
optical network also use IP addressing (in this respect, unlike IP over
ATM), but the end result still looks very much like IP over ATM or IP
directly over SONET.

Aren't you glad ION went through all those hurdles before? Perhaps we should
add optical nets to the charter and reactivate ION. Makes sense to me.
Optical nets are still non-broadcast nets, after all.

Regards

Bert
albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com
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Subject: Re: (ION) Optical routing
To: Albert.Manfredi@phl.boeing.com, ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com
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In a message dated 9/18/00 10:20:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Albert.Manfredi@PHL.Boeing.com writes:

> Just for grins, did anyone see the articles in this month's IEEE
>  Communications Magazine, about IP over optical networks? It's the same old
>  issues all over again. Basically, you have IP over a circuit-switched
>  network again. They do offer different approaches, including having the
>  optical network also use IP addressing (in this respect, unlike IP over
>  ATM), but the end result still looks very much like IP over ATM or IP
>  directly over SONET.

Until one can build an optical packet switch (or at least an
optical register), not much else can be expected.

Joachim Martillo
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From owner-ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com  Mon Sep 18 16:44:02 2000
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From: "Shawn Veillon" <shawn@brokenoil.com>
To: "ION Group \(E-mail\)" <ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com>
Subject: RE: (ION) Optical routing
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:02:47 -0700
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Well, I think more focus should be placed on implementing multicast across
the Internet.  Faster and wider is great, but more efficient is smarter.
Don't you think?  I know that won't solve everything, as there will still be
tons of downloading of files going on, but if the trend continues in the
arena of media casting, along with the move to wider use of broadband in the
home, we can expect THAT to become the majority usage.  Multicasting should
help curb that.  It's closer than an optical packet switch.

We should do both, for sure.

Shawn Veillon


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com
[mailto:owner-ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com]On Behalf Of Manfredi, Albert E
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 7:14 AM
To: ION Group (E-mail)
Subject: (ION) Optical routing


Hi IONers. Anyone still out there?

Just for grins, did anyone see the articles in this month's IEEE
Communications Magazine, about IP over optical networks? It's the same old
issues all over again. Basically, you have IP over a circuit-switched
network again. They do offer different approaches, including having the
optical network also use IP addressing (in this respect, unlike IP over
ATM), but the end result still looks very much like IP over ATM or IP
directly over SONET.

Aren't you glad ION went through all those hurdles before? Perhaps we should
add optical nets to the charter and reactivate ION. Makes sense to me.
Optical nets are still non-broadcast nets, after all.

Regards

Bert
albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com
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From owner-ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com  Mon Sep 18 17:04:50 2000
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From: "Manfredi, Albert E" <Albert.Manfredi@PHL.Boeing.com>
To: "'Shawn Veillon'" <shawn@brokenoil.com>,
        "ION Group (E-mail)" <ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com>
Subject: RE: (ION) Optical routing
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:02:08 -0400
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And to that end, we have MARS. RFC 2022, whose abstract reads like this:

Abstract

   Mapping the connectionless IP multicast service over the connection
   oriented ATM services provided by UNI 3.0/3.1 is a non-trivial task.
   This memo describes a mechanism to support the multicast needs of
   Layer 3 protocols in general, and describes its application to IP
   multicasting in particular.

   ATM based IP hosts and routers use a Multicast Address Resolution
   Server (MARS) to support RFC 1112 style Level 2 IP multicast over the
   ATM Forum's UNI 3.0/3.1 point to multipoint connection service.
   Clusters of endpoints share a MARS and use it to track and
   disseminate information identifying the nodes listed as receivers for
   given multicast groups. This allows endpoints to establish and manage
   point to multipoint VCs when transmitting to the group.

   The MARS behaviour allows Layer 3 multicasting to be supported using
   either meshes of VCs or ATM level multicast servers. This choice may
   be made on a per-group basis, and is transparent to the endpoints.

Note that ATM had an advantage compared with optical networks. ATM can
replicate cells at any switch, sending these to any number of output ports.
And RFC 2022 makes use of that capability to implement an RFC 1112-like IP
multicast service over ATM.

Optical nets would need some sort of optical amplifier at the divergence
points to achieve a similar capability, at which point in principle
something along the same lines as RFC 2022 could be adapted to optical nets.

Since it is feasible to use MARS to reach individual IP unicast addresses,
as well as ATM addresses (AESAs), it seems to me that this gives RFC 2022 a
reasonable shot at being the solution for optical nets, however they end up
being arranged.

I agree that multicast over IP seems to be a necessity in the future. As
some wise person once said, "If you think you have solved a problem, just
try implementing multicast."

Bert
albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shawn Veillon [mailto:shawn@brokenoil.com]
> Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 1:03 PM
> To: ION Group (E-mail)
> Subject: RE: (ION) Optical routing
> 
> 
> Well, I think more focus should be placed on implementing 
> multicast across
> the Internet.  Faster and wider is great, but more efficient 
> is smarter.
> Don't you think?  I know that won't solve everything, as 
> there will still be
> tons of downloading of files going on, but if the trend 
> continues in the
> arena of media casting, along with the move to wider use of 
> broadband in the
> home, we can expect THAT to become the majority usage.  
> Multicasting should
> help curb that.  It's closer than an optical packet switch.
> 
> We should do both, for sure.
> 
> Shawn Veillon
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com
> [mailto:owner-ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com]On Behalf Of Manfredi, Albert E
> Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 7:14 AM
> To: ION Group (E-mail)
> Subject: (ION) Optical routing
> 
> 
> Hi IONers. Anyone still out there?
> 
> Just for grins, did anyone see the articles in this month's IEEE
> Communications Magazine, about IP over optical networks? It's 
> the same old
> issues all over again. Basically, you have IP over a circuit-switched
> network again. They do offer different approaches, including 
> having the
> optical network also use IP addressing (in this respect, 
> unlike IP over
> ATM), but the end result still looks very much like IP over ATM or IP
> directly over SONET.
> 
> Aren't you glad ION went through all those hurdles before? 
> Perhaps we should
> add optical nets to the charter and reactivate ION. Makes sense to me.
> Optical nets are still non-broadcast nets, after all.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Bert
> albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com
> X-Info: To unsubscribe, email 'majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com' with
> X-Info: 'unsubscribe ion' in the body of the message.
> 
> ------- End of Forwarded Message ------- 
> 
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From owner-ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com  Mon Sep 18 17:27:43 2000
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From: Michael Smirnov <smirnow@fokus.gmd.de>
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To: ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com, Albert.Manfredi@PHL.Boeing.com
Subject: Re: (ION) Optical routing
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Hi,

sounds like a good idea,

On Mon Sep 18 16:25:33 2000 Manfredi, Albert wrote:

<...>
	 Perhaps we should
> add optical nets to the charter and reactivate ION. Makes sense to me.
> Optical nets are still non-broadcast nets, after all.

cheers

Michael

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From: "Peter Tam" <ptam@nortelnetworks.com>
To: Michael Smirnov <smirnow@fokus.gmd.de>, ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com,
        Albert.Manfredi@PHL.Boeing.com
Subject: RE: (ION) Optical routing
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 19:15:11 -0400
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Albert:

How would it be different from the proposed work in the IP over Optics BOF
charter? 

Regards....Peter
Nortel Networks

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Michael Smirnov [SMTP:smirnow@fokus.gmd.de]
	Sent:	Monday, September 18, 2000 5:23 PM
	To:	ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com; Albert.Manfredi@PHL.Boeing.com
	Subject:	Re: (ION) Optical routing

	Hi,

	sounds like a good idea,

	On Mon Sep 18 16:25:33 2000 Manfredi, Albert wrote:

	<...>
		 Perhaps we should
	> add optical nets to the charter and reactivate ION. Makes sense to
me.
	> Optical nets are still non-broadcast nets, after all.

	cheers

	Michael

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<TITLE>RE: (ION) Optical routing</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Albert:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">How would it be different from the =
proposed work in the IP over Optics BOF charter? </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Regards....Peter</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Nortel Networks</FONT>
</P>
<UL>
<P><A NAME=3D"_MailData"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original =
Message-----</FONT></A>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp; Michael Smirnov =
[SMTP:smirnow@fokus.gmd.de]</FONT></B>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Monday, September 18, 2000 5:23 PM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com; =
Albert.Manfredi@PHL.Boeing.com</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Re: (ION) Optical routing</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hi,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">sounds like a good idea,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">On Mon Sep 18 16:25:33 2000 Manfredi, =
Albert wrote:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&lt;...&gt;</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial"> Perhaps we should</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; add optical nets to the charter =
and reactivate ION. Makes sense to me.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Optical nets are still =
non-broadcast nets, after all.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">cheers</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Michael</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">X-Info: To unsubscribe, email =
'majordomo@sunroof.eng.sun.com' with</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">X-Info: 'unsubscribe ion' in the body =
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Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 16:49:10 -0700
To: "Peter Tam" <ptam@nortelnetworks.com>
From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: (ION) Optical routing
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At 07:15 PM 9/18/00 -0400, Peter Tam wrote:
>How would it be different from the proposed work in the IP over Optics BOF 
>charter?

isn't that tied rather closely to MPLS, as in "the whole world is MPLS and 
who needs IP anyway?" One wonders whether it might be worthwhile to discuss 
*IP* over Optics somwhere.

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Subject: RE: (ION) Optical routing
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Fred, Peter, et al,

*IP* over Optics, as Fred put it, is the point of the proposed ipo 
WG.  There are enough optical-specific problems that still need to be 
solved that forming a new WG makes sense, and the old ion group would have 
to be rechartered anyway if we wanted to restart it.

If we continue this conversation, I would like to ask that we move it to 
the ip-optical@lists.bell-labs.com list so that the people there can 
participate (not to mention that a good portion of the email addresses on 
the ion list are now dead).  Go to 
http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/ip-optical to join the list or 
read the archives.  The presentations from the July ipo meeting can be 
found at http://wwwext.eng.us.uu.net/ipo/presentations/ietf_48/.

Thanks,
Andy

-------

At 9/18/2000 04:49 PM -0700, Fred Baker wrote:
>At 07:15 PM 9/18/00 -0400, Peter Tam wrote:
>>How would it be different from the proposed work in the IP over Optics 
>>BOF charter?
>
>isn't that tied rather closely to MPLS, as in "the whole world is MPLS and 
>who needs IP anyway?" One wonders whether it might be worthwhile to 
>discuss *IP* over Optics somwhere.

________________________________________________________________________
Andrew G. Malis     Andy.Malis@vivacenetworks.com     phone:408-383-7223
Vivace Networks/2730 Orchard Parkway/San Jose, CA 95134/fax:408-904-4748
http://www.vivacenetworks.com

--=====================_371374067==_.ALT
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<html>
Fred, Peter, et al,<br>
<br>
*IP* over Optics, as Fred put it, is the point of the proposed ipo
WG.&nbsp; There are enough optical-specific problems that still need to
be solved that forming a new WG makes sense, and the old ion group would
have to be rechartered anyway if we wanted to restart it.<br>
<br>
If we continue this conversation, I would like to ask that we move it to
the <font color="#0000FF"><u>ip-optical@lists.bell-labs.com</u></font>
list so that the people there can participate (not to mention that a good
portion of the email addresses on the ion list are now dead).&nbsp; Go to
<a href="http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/ip-optical" eudora="autourl">http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/ip-optical</a>
to join the list or read the archives.&nbsp; The presentations from the July ipo meeting can be found at <a href="http://wwwext.eng.us.uu.net/ipo/presentations/ietf_48/" eudora="autourl">http://wwwext.eng.us.uu.net/ipo/presentations/ietf_48/</a>.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Andy<br>
<br>
-------<br>
<br>
At 9/18/2000 04:49 PM -0700, Fred Baker wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>At 07:15 PM 9/18/00 -0400, Peter Tam wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>How would it be different from the proposed work in the IP over Optics BOF charter?</blockquote><br>
isn't that tied rather closely to MPLS, as in &quot;the whole world is MPLS and who needs IP anyway?&quot; One wonders whether it might be worthwhile to discuss *IP* over Optics somwhere.<br>
</blockquote><br>
<div>________________________________________________________________________</div>
<div>Andrew G. Malis&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Andy.Malis@vivacenetworks.com&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; phone:408-383-7223&nbsp; </div>
<div>Vivace Networks/2730 Orchard Parkway/San Jose, CA 95134/fax:408-904-4748</div>
<div><a href="http://www.vivacenetworks.com/" EUDORA=AUTOURL>http://www.vivacenetworks.com</a></div>
</html>

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To: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
cc: "Peter Tam" <ptam@nortelnetworks.com>, ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com
Subject: Re: (ION) Optical routing 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Sep 2000 16:49:10 PDT."
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Fred,

> At 07:15 PM 9/18/00 -0400, Peter Tam wrote:
> >How would it be different from the proposed work in the IP over Optics BOF 
> >charter?
> 
> isn't that tied rather closely to MPLS, as in "the whole world is MPLS and 
> who needs IP anyway?" 

This is an interesting perspective on MPLS. Is that your own ?

Yakov.
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To: Yakov Rekhter <yakov@cisco.com>
From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: (ION) Optical routing 
Cc: "Peter Tam" <ptam@nortelnetworks.com>, ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com
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At 01:22 PM 9/21/00 -0700, Yakov Rekhter wrote:
>This is an interesting perspective on MPLS. Is that your own ?

Sorry for the delay in responding; I have been in transit.

It was the comment, roughly verbatim, of a person who attended the last 
IETF to attend the BOF, whom I met in the airport. Thankfully, I collected 
neither his name nor that of his company. I was, er, sputter, ...

My perspective on MPLS is that it is a facility that has certain potential 
utilities, such as in BGP/MPLS VPNs and in Traffic Engineering. It is 
essentially a circuit switching architecture, and is therefore not 
connectionless. I rather believe that Len Kleinrock was onto something in 
his paper on the subject in 1964, and so get a little twitchy at the thought.

I don't see the need for MPLS in the optical layer (unless you view the 
lambda frequency itself as the label), and it may get in the way of some 
interesting things; I'd rather not restrict things at this point if I don't 
have to. A lambda encodes a class of traffic. It may be "the traffic going 
to this next hop", "the traffic of this class going to this next hop", "the 
traffic of this class going to this set of next hops", or a list of other 
possibilities. In that latter case, I could imagine the set of next hops 
being linearly related along a fiber path (ie, several successive systems 
down one fiber path who each see the same light beam and each extract a 
subset of its contents), or the set being a POP (so that the next hop is 
the entry to the POP, and the data is then distributed among systems at the 
POP). The light beam is itself a "circuit" in some sense, and having 
additional circuits within it doesn't make a lot of sense. I would prefer 
to see IP datagrams inside the light beam, not bundled circuits.

Call it a preference or a religious opinion, if you need to categorize 
opinions. I would rather do my work at the IP layer.

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From: "Manfredi, Albert E" <Albert.Manfredi@PHL.Boeing.com>
To: "'Fred Baker'" <fred@cisco.com>
Cc: ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com
Subject: RE: (ION) Optical routing 
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 16:44:10 -0400
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Fred Baker wrote:

> Sorry for the delay in responding; I have been in transit.
> 
> It was the comment, roughly verbatim, of a person who 
> attended the last 
> IETF to attend the BOF, whom I met in the airport. 
> Thankfully, I collected 
> neither his name nor that of his company. I was, er, sputter, ...
> 
> My perspective on MPLS is that it is a facility that has 
> certain potential 
> utilities, such as in BGP/MPLS VPNs and in Traffic Engineering. It is 
> essentially a circuit switching architecture, and is therefore not 
> connectionless. I rather believe that Len Kleinrock was onto 
> something in 
> his paper on the subject in 1964, and so get a little twitchy 
> at the thought.
> 
> I don't see the need for MPLS in the optical layer (unless 
> you view the 
> lambda frequency itself as the label), and it may get in the 
> way of some 
> interesting things; I'd rather not restrict things at this 
> point if I don't 
> have to. A lambda encodes a class of traffic. It may be "the 
> traffic going 
> to this next hop", "the traffic of this class going to this 
> next hop", "the 
> traffic of this class going to this set of next hops", or a 
> list of other 
> possibilities. In that latter case, I could imagine the set 
> of next hops 
> being linearly related along a fiber path (ie, several 
> successive systems 
> down one fiber path who each see the same light beam and each 
> extract a 
> subset of its contents), or the set being a POP (so that the 
> next hop is 
> the entry to the POP, and the data is then distributed among 
> systems at the 
> POP). The light beam is itself a "circuit" in some sense, ...

The articles that discuss this, in this month's IEEE Communications
Magazine, pretty much echo these thoughts. The different light beams are
indeed circuits, and in order to choose the right one, guess what we have?
We have a UNI and we have an NNI. Does any of this sound familiar?

I guess the reason I brought this up at all is to point out that at least
some, if not all, of the problems we encountered with ION, which ultimately
indirectly led to its becoming deactivated, will be repeated here. We are
still at the hype phase with respect to WDM, of course, but consider what
happens, for example, with the potential for routing loops when we try
routing IP packets through the optical network? Or how about multicast
support? The ATM experience could be useful here, to avoid the problems ATM
has with merging flows in a many-to-many multicast.

> Call it a preference or a religious opinion, if you need to 
> categorize 
> opinions. I would rather do my work at the IP layer.

If wavelengths could be assigned on a packet-by-packet basis, or at least on
an session-by-session basis (which isn't necessarily any easier to do,
especially with short HTTP-like transactions), these schemes, and ATM, would
be easier to use with IP packet switching philosophies, methinks.

Bert
albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com
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From owner-ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com  Mon Sep 25 05:43:38 2000
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Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 11:06:34 +0200
To: "Manfredi, Albert E" <Albert.Manfredi@PHL.Boeing.com>
From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: (ION) Optical routing 
Cc: ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com
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At 04:44 PM 9/24/00 -0400, Manfredi, Albert E wrote:
>If wavelengths could be assigned on a packet-by-packet basis, or at least on
>an session-by-session basis (which isn't necessarily any easier to do,
>especially with short HTTP-like transactions), these schemes, and ATM, would
>be easier to use with IP packet switching philosophies, methinks.

Maybe I'm missing something; I often feel that I am. Placing 
electrically-represented packets into a queue appropriate to a lambda is no 
different than placing them into a queue by traffic class. So we most 
certainly can select wavelengths on some variation of a per-packet basis. 
What is difficult to do, with today's technology, is to arbitrarily select 
a packet out of a lambda and change its color to an arbitrary other color 
without capturing all of the packets in a lambda and throwing them into 
electrical queues.

But do we need to? If the packets in a given lambda are to be so selected 
and sent on in a purely photonic manner (without conversion to 
electronics), I'm not sure we need to at all. The packets that we want to 
select out of an ingress lambda and distribute to a set of output lambdas 
will be sequenced in time on the output links exactly as they are on the 
input link. If we re-represent the packet electrically and then retransmit, 
the temporal dimensions may be changed, but in essence we have a beam of 
light coming in, passing through the moral equivalent of a color filter, 
and passing out on an interface or a set of interfaces. the photons aren't 
going to speed up and slow down during that process because we find 
interleaved traffic unimportant on a certain link.

So it seems like we could just as easily replicate the light beam to 
various outputs and color them appropriately to their outputs. Downstream 
devices could then select out of their instance of the light beam the 
traffic appropriate to them and ignore the rest. I don't see any 
operational difference between the two.

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Subject: Re: (ION) Optical routing 
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Fred,

> At 01:22 PM 9/21/00 -0700, Yakov Rekhter wrote:
> >This is an interesting perspective on MPLS. Is that your own ?
> 
> Sorry for the delay in responding; I have been in transit.
> 
> It was the comment, roughly verbatim, of a person who attended the last 
> IETF to attend the BOF, whom I met in the airport. Thankfully, I collected 
> neither his name nor that of his company. I was, er, sputter, ...
> 
> My perspective on MPLS is that it is a facility that has certain potential 
> utilities, such as in BGP/MPLS VPNs and in Traffic Engineering. 

These are certainly some of the applications of MPLS.

> It is essentially a circuit switching architecture, and is therefore not 
> connectionless. 

That statement shows that you have a rather limited understanding of
MPLS, as while MPLS can be used to provide circuit switching
architecture, it also could be used to provide a pure connectionless
architecture as well.

> I rather believe that Len Kleinrock was onto something in 
> his paper on the subject in 1964, and so get a little twitchy at the thought.
> 
> I don't see the need for MPLS in the optical layer (unless you view the 
> lambda frequency itself as the label), 
 
From the semantical point of view lambda is a label (please read read
draft-awduche-mpls-te-optical-02.txt for more details on this).  Having
said this, I understand that some folks, due to their irrational
attitude towards MPLS, may claim that MPLS has nothing to do with the
optical layer. And no amount of rational arguments is going to change
this.

> and it may get in the way of some 
> interesting things; I'd rather not restrict things at this point if I don't 
> have to. A lambda encodes a class of traffic. It may be "the traffic going 
> to this next hop", "the traffic of this class going to this next hop", "the 
> traffic of this class going to this set of next hops", or a list of other 
> possibilities. 

Thanks for describing how traffic could be mapped into MPLS FECs.

> In that latter case, I could imagine the set of next hops 
> being linearly related along a fiber path (ie, several successive systems 
> down one fiber path who each see the same light beam and each extract a 
> subset of its contents), or the set being a POP (so that the next hop is 
> the entry to the POP, and the data is then distributed among systems at the 
> POP). The light beam is itself a "circuit" in some sense, and having 
> additional circuits within it doesn't make a lot of sense. I would prefer 
> to see IP datagrams inside the light beam, not bundled circuits.
> 
> Call it a preference or a religious opinion, if you need to categorize 
> opinions. I would rather do my work at the IP layer.

Your preference is clear. And since it is based on a religious opinion
(as you acknowledged yourself), I see no reason to continue a rational 
discussion on this topic.

Yakov.
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Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 16:24:30 +0200
To: Yakov Rekhter <yakov@cisco.com>
From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: (ION) Optical routing 
Cc: Yakov Rekhter <yakov@cisco.com>, "Peter Tam" <ptam@nortelnetworks.com>,
        ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com
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At 06:18 AM 9/25/00 -0700, Yakov Rekhter wrote:
>I see no reason to continue a rational
>discussion on this topic.

to each his own. I thought the rest of use were having a reasonably 
rational discussion. If you don't mind, we might continue.

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From: "Manfredi, Albert E" <Albert.Manfredi@PHL.Boeing.com>
To: "'Fred Baker'" <fred@cisco.com>
Cc: ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com
Subject: RE: (ION) Optical routing 
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 11:16:13 -0400
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Fred Baker wrote:

> Maybe I'm missing something; I often feel that I am. Placing 
> electrically-represented packets into a queue appropriate to 
> a lambda is no 
> different than placing them into a queue by traffic class.

Or on a pre-existing ATM PVCs (or SPVCs), or SONET pipes, or any other
tunnel. Is this what you mean? I agree with you that as long as colors are
used just like these other examples of long-term pipes, those same solutions
should work. And that in principle, the inter-optical network hops might be
done photonically.

> So we most 
> certainly can select wavelengths on some variation of a 
> per-packet basis. 
> What is difficult to do, with today's technology, is to 
> arbitrarily select 
> a packet out of a lambda and change its color to an arbitrary 
> other color 
> without capturing all of the packets in a lambda and throwing 
> them into 
> electrical queues.

It's also difficult to build the lambda-differentiated routes on the fly, as
packets arrive at the ingress. Just as it is difficult to achieve that in
ATM, not so? I think that tunnels available long-term, such as those
mentioned above, bypass a lot of complexity.

I don't consider SONET ADMs to be "routers," so I find that term misleading
when applied to these optical "routers" as well.

> So it seems like we could just as easily replicate the light beam to 
> various outputs and color them appropriately to their 
> outputs.

If there were as many colors available as IP addresses, or if colors could
be mapped real-time to one (or more) IP address just for the duration of an
IP session, then reassigned, that's what I would consider to be optical
routing.

Bert
albert.e.manfredi@boeing.com
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From owner-ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com  Tue Sep 26 03:27:20 2000
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Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 09:11:03 -0400
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Subject: Re: (ION) Optical routing
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Fred,

I agree with you that putting MPLS over lambda is more a marketing hype and
probably will not improve performance at all. Perhaps, another perspective 
is to
look at it as an signalling mechanism (LDP). It may still be useful for 
creating
e2e light paths because today if you buy DWDM devices from LU, NT or CIEN, they
won't speak to each others.

 > So it seems like we could just as easily replicate the light beam to
 > various outputs and color them appropriately to their outputs. Downstream
 > devices could then select out of their instance of the light beam the
 > traffic appropriate to them and ignore the rest. I don't see any
 > operational difference between the two.

The outcomes might be similar, but the complexity of such fabric would be quite
different.


-- Keith.

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On Mon, 25 Sep 2000, Albert Manfredi wrote:

> ... or if colors could
> be mapped real-time to one (or more) IP address just for the duration of an
> IP session, then reassigned, that's what I would consider to be optical
> routing.

Could that be a resurgence of IFMP and GSMP, switching "flows" (in the
data plane) instead of preconfiguring "paths" in the control plane?

Michel Vanden Bossche
Mission Critical
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From owner-ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com  Tue Sep 26 18:48:43 2000
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Message-ID: <39D05778.F48CB306@research.bell-labs.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 00:59:52 -0700
From: Grenville Armitage <gja@research.bell-labs.com>
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Fred,

	[..]
 > The light beam is itself a "circuit" in some sense, and having
 > additional circuits within it doesn't make a lot of sense. I would prefer
 > to see IP datagrams inside the light beam, not bundled circuits.

Insofar as we are used to channelized SONET interfaces, which are
essentially circuits within circuits, why does it not make sense for
lamda paths to carry L(abel)SPs?  Think of it as channelization.

As for using MPLS control protocols to establish and maintain
lamda paths - consider it an operational simplification for
certain SPs. If I own all my fibre, and my business is IP, then
it might be nice to train my operations people on just one set of
peculiar routing protocols and failure modes. (Naturally, if my
business is simply optical circuits, resold to overlay customers,
non-MPLS alternatives may be equally appealing.... although this
still leaves open the possibility of using MPLS protocols as UNI
protocols for the optical cloud, but now we're going way afield...)

cheers,
gja
________________________________________________________________________
Grenville Armitage                    http://members.home.net/garmitage/
Bell Labs Research Silicon Valley

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From owner-ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com  Wed Sep 27 10:22:08 2000
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Subject: Re: (ION) Optical routing 
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I would have characterized it more like putting them into different logical
ports rather than traffic classes since there is no implication of treatment
of the packets or service disciplines applied to the queues and parallelism
certainly occurs in a WDM interface amongs the lambdas.

> Maybe I'm missing something; I often feel that I am. Placing
> electrically-represented packets into a queue appropriate to a lambda is
no
> different than placing them into a queue by traffic class. So we most
> certainly can select wavelengths on some variation of a per-packet basis.

The below tad misleading.  What is quite doable today is to break the lambda
down temporally (essentially channelizing along the axis of time as opposed
to wavelength or space) and extract only those time slots which you know are
of interest to you.  Note this does not require packet inspection prior to
an add/drop since you already know that this slot is of interest to you (I
did not say was for you since you might not be interested in everything in
that time slot) via signaling or manual config or whatever.

> What is difficult to do, with today's technology, is to arbitrarily select
> a packet out of a lambda and change its color to an arbitrary other color
> without capturing all of the packets in a lambda and throwing them into
> electrical queues.

It is non-trivial (and expensive) to arbitrarily move a lambda on the grid
to another lambda without doing transduction to the electrical domain.   To
the best of my limited knowledge, "all optical" wavelength converters
(non-OEO) are still mostly in the lab and not ready for cost effective
production systems of the type being of interest here.

> But do we need to? If the packets in a given lambda are to be so selected
> and sent on in a purely photonic manner (without conversion to
> electronics), I'm not sure we need to at all. The packets that we want to
> select out of an ingress lambda and distribute to a set of output lambdas
> will be sequenced in time on the output links exactly as they are on the
> input link. If we re-represent the packet electrically and then
retransmit,
> the temporal dimensions may be changed, but in essence we have a beam of
> light coming in, passing through the moral equivalent of a color filter,
> and passing out on an interface or a set of interfaces. the photons aren't
> going to speed up and slow down during that process because we find
> interleaved traffic unimportant on a certain link.
>
> So it seems like we could just as easily replicate the light beam to
> various outputs and color them appropriately to their outputs. Downstream
> devices could then select out of their instance of the light beam the
> traffic appropriate to them and ignore the rest. I don't see any
> operational difference between the two.

There are certainly boxes becoming available that are boasting much larger
wavelength count but many of the deployed boxes are 16 to 32 wavelengths in
number per WDM port.  Depending on your application, merely assigning a
lambda to a point to point connection between two boxes of some arbitrary
number of all optical hops apart would not seem to be the most effective use
of  available bandwidth at hand.


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From owner-ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com  Wed Sep 27 22:13:29 2000
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Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:06:20 -0300 (EST)
From: Walter Ferreira Siqueira <siqueira@inf.ufsc.br>
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To: ion@sunroof.eng.sun.com
Subject: (ION) Informations about people that working (MPOAMulti-Protocol over ATM)
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Hello,

I need contact peoples or (workgroup)that working with Multi-Protocol over
ATM (MPOA).

Any information will be very well arrival
Thank you,

Walter Siqueira

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