From nobody Mon Feb 1 07:49:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietf.org Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B39F3A1268; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 07:49:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke_via_Datatracker?= To: "The IESG" Cc: iotops-chairs@ietf.org, iotops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.24.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke?= Message-ID: <161219458329.27128.6122825163021650139@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 07:49:43 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Iotops] =?utf-8?q?=C3=89ric_Vyncke=27s_Yes_on_charter-ietf-ioto?= =?utf-8?q?ps-00-16=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 15:49:43 -0000 Éric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-iotops-00-16: Yes When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-iotops/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The earlier this WG is chartered the better. Nevertheless, I wonder why "...issues related to IoT operational security" does not have "taking input and..." as the other bullets? In "technology related to IoT device and network operations", should "device" be in the plural form ? Hope this helps From nobody Mon Feb 1 12:51:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietf.org Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A9413A147C; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 12:51:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alvaro Retana via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: iotops-chairs@ietf.org, iotops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.24.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Alvaro Retana Message-ID: <161221267191.23583.3513841149919324008@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 12:51:12 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Iotops] Alvaro Retana's Yes on charter-ietf-iotops-00-16: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2021 20:51:13 -0000 Alvaro Retana has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-iotops-00-16: Yes When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-iotops/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Just a minor nit: s/new protocols may be needed/new work may be needed New work will not always require a protocol. From nobody Tue Feb 2 07:35:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietf.org Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D0793A1B81; Tue, 2 Feb 2021 07:35:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alissa Cooper via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: iotops-chairs@ietf.org, iotops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.25.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Alissa Cooper Message-ID: <161228010543.16430.2721568126043199836@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2021 07:35:05 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Iotops] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on charter-ietf-iotops-00-16: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2021 15:35:06 -0000 Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-iotops-00-16: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-iotops/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- s/operational practice/operational practices/ From nobody Wed Feb 3 10:46:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietf.org Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 317643A0C6F; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 10:46:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Duke via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: iotops-chairs@ietf.org, iotops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.25.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Martin Duke Message-ID: <161237796111.9705.9707026334703340484@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2021 10:46:01 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Iotops] Martin Duke's Block on charter-ietf-iotops-00-17: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2021 18:46:01 -0000 Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-iotops-00-17: Block When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-iotops/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BLOCK: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I hate to do this the second time through, but I'm happy to clear it after the telechat after a brief discussion makes it clear I am very wrong... I recognize that this WG is more focused on discussion and sharing that more standards-directed ones, but I'm a bit uncomfortable with the open-endedness of the charter. While there are bounds on the scope, there are no real success criteria that we can use to evaluate this WG after a certain period of time. Would it be worthwhile to BoF this first to set some basic milestones for this WG? Do we already have these milestones in someone's head, that we can write down? I definitely support formation of a WG with this theme, with a little tightening as described above. From nobody Wed Feb 3 11:21:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7FA03A107C; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 11:20:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6yGmX8lxLObe; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 11:19:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B7BA3A0D99; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 11:19:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2711; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1612379998; x=1613589598; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=8rZ1XOSTQr66i9Xe9228nFK51ggndI6hbm73wR0DZ3Q=; b=A7fgn2SXIklsibDXZ1kSTbR0OE7uukdNVvkJjZSrCNuLSAoBTAOKOsQW vj9pJSUQWcdYrLSditMazrfqbsatb1+mC+ZGvsASWXNHc9EyEsAhoUTDt tceKPpm9Y/RZ095NwVYR6JFREUD9ltrwgQVLCkZeGTTd0pBnLn3qv5dRs w=; X-Files: signature.asc : 488 X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0A5AABA9hpglxbLJq1iHQEBAQEJARIBBQUBgX0GAQsBA?= =?us-ascii?q?YMfVgEjEjGEQIkEiFIDmkcUgWgEBwEBAQoDAQEYCwwEAQGEBkQCgX0mNgcOA?= =?us-ascii?q?gMBAQEDAgMBAQEBBQEBAQIBBgQUAQEBAQEBAQGGNg1DARABhR4BAQEDAQEBI?= =?us-ascii?q?UsLBQsLGCoCAicwBhODJgGCZiAPsER2gTKEVEFEhHEKBoE4AYFSi2xBggCBO?= =?us-ascii?q?AwQglY+gl0BAQMBgSYBEgGDOjSCLASCJ4EDJhkYWyQScHaPUow2nD+DBIMpg?= =?us-ascii?q?TqEU40ohSQDH4MvikaVK59ckXleg3ICBAYFAhaBXQonaXAzGggbFTsqAYI+P?= =?us-ascii?q?hIZDY47iGuFRkADMDcCBgEJAQEDCYZAhVUBAQ?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.79,399,1602547200"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="33185862" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 03 Feb 2021 19:19:53 +0000 Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp4285.cisco.com (ams3-vpn-dhcp4285.cisco.com [10.61.80.188]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 113JJrS8020994 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 3 Feb 2021 19:19:53 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_099C36CB-026A-43BA-A5D9-B5E541E04B66"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 20:19:52 +0100 In-Reply-To: <161237796111.9705.9707026334703340484@ietfa.amsl.com> Cc: The IESG , iotops-chairs@ietf.org, iotops@ietf.org To: Martin Duke References: <161237796111.9705.9707026334703340484@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.80.188, ams3-vpn-dhcp4285.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] Martin Duke's Block on charter-ietf-iotops-00-17: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2021 19:20:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_099C36CB-026A-43BA-A5D9-B5E541E04B66 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Please no. Either create the group or don=E2=80=99t. We=E2=80=99ve = been talking about it since Benoit was an AD. > On 3 Feb 2021, at 19:46, Martin Duke via Datatracker = wrote: >=20 > Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-iotops-00-17: Block >=20 > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this > introductory paragraph, however.) >=20 >=20 >=20 > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-iotops/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > BLOCK: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > I hate to do this the second time through, but I'm happy to clear it = after the > telechat after a brief discussion makes it clear I am very wrong... >=20 > I recognize that this WG is more focused on discussion and sharing = that more > standards-directed ones, but I'm a bit uncomfortable with the = open-endedness of > the charter. While there are bounds on the scope, there are no real = success > criteria that we can use to evaluate this WG after a certain period of = time. >=20 > Would it be worthwhile to BoF this first to set some basic milestones = for this > WG? Do we already have these milestones in someone's head, that we can = write > down? >=20 > I definitely support formation of a WG with this theme, with a little > tightening as described above. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > Iotops mailing list > Iotops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iotops --Apple-Mail=_099C36CB-026A-43BA-A5D9-B5E541E04B66 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmAa91gACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejO8lgf/TH0vzhzwhDjFnCpFGI/i1GSUn4pBFIBb0K3lwMipugwW4+kDYIEH/9Qi xqS+FFGVDCnf0hCA+zMXurSS2QJcUL+c//lxG5PTYcQzk8QWQMubMpNUQR1MTeHx RZNDxNGh3JWLc7l0S/1BFCFV2mefUfSvb2+naW5fao1fZD96pd/g/W8Y/9L8gMf3 qIOcQWk645oAY/xfu6X/7Q4kS0Enmr5rmQiEaWFMjh07Al+mFqCGyhpt7s7ZnnGg pH+JfXsz+NIc5BBCI+JOK2L246A2iQnd5qtu/6VUplmbTta779Vd7oJOxQYTnzwc aeoGqOst0wRdQMcPoTKiaTJT0kIKhA== =IXHa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_099C36CB-026A-43BA-A5D9-B5E541E04B66-- From nobody Wed Feb 3 11:25:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 236EE3A10AD; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 11:25:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.401 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xuz5QOcxJjTL; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 11:25:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-f170.google.com (mail-lj1-f170.google.com [209.85.208.170]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 736153A10AA; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 11:25:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-f170.google.com with SMTP id l12so433153ljc.3; Wed, 03 Feb 2021 11:25:38 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=sc8HUCARbAM2Zc6JlRxy/pM5nyzDoP+ZoTIfkIP9iXs=; b=ndnXo0AtxWa1vtr5pudfwALGa0u4NMGdxZAAWVn9RNI8L5swXskllB29jTuNZHXKge VOWa3CYMiBH+CfY5m87N4nsLKkmLm1zuQkjQAVTkMlzFfTcGQGq9ECTCl2ZiW5HpNdDU zWefASqyyvMWFa5iswR4jsn5NIDONcUk14/fiyn3S1dNSgiiFzWAZxPw/3QpdMjqRki5 fBIOwWRWoi6EojJ7em5jPmNKXa1tI+N3lc1R9IcSAJS/wcqkPFMrmY5hfs16ny9KHGbX O/auOz6EqaaPZJhebf9qV3I/dP8wNX/hAtKUW9kizai6cW3QVRL0lARE8GtRSOhFPpv/ mjOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533QzF4LdGXCiMDcZC2ZT+XpAvxjmk0C2OjqTRbm2hBuGOJt24AC w+8Q8EI8lZwL/VrPGnrbWkUzB33PhQBGY4PZ084= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxq30XUq+8IX2s++NlhEdZEtNxJTxjuEx3JjG3iqhu5Nbh9epG2iOLv2j8r+2E7sakQn3hM7JFuEJbNXqEOuy0= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:7d04:: with SMTP id y4mr2537600ljc.65.1612380336515; Wed, 03 Feb 2021 11:25:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <161237796111.9705.9707026334703340484@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <161237796111.9705.9707026334703340484@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Barry Leiba Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 14:25:25 -0500 Message-ID: To: Martin Duke Cc: The IESG , iotops-chairs@ietf.org, iotops@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] Martin Duke's Block on charter-ietf-iotops-00-17: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2021 19:25:40 -0000 I don't know how this happened, but I accidentally sent the following to Martin along, rather than to the list: -------------------------------- I look at it the other way: I think we're often being too restrictive, and that we should charter *more* working groups of this nature. I really don't understand the objection to it. We've tried doing this in different ways, with things like the Exploratory Groups experiment, but changes like that aren't well understood and don't tend to succeed. But just putting it into the Working Group context with goals that are still clear but less concrete seems workable (and is working in MOPS, for example). Lars moved in that sort of direction for the IRTF when he chaired it, and it worked: go do your work for a year, and if it looks right at that point, you're official. I think that for working groups it's better to make the charter official and kill it after a year if it's not working, but it amounts to something close to the same thing. -------------------------------- In a resultant exchange with Martin, he noted to me the lack of clarity on "if it looks right", and I see the point there. Maybe we can have a few more words about how we can evaluate the success of the working group if it does not produce documents under charter scope items (3) or (4)? I could get behind that, if we don't wrap ourselves around an axle about it. Barry On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 1:46 PM Martin Duke via Datatracker wrote: > > Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-iotops-00-17: Block > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-iotops/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > BLOCK: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I hate to do this the second time through, but I'm happy to clear it after the > telechat after a brief discussion makes it clear I am very wrong... > > I recognize that this WG is more focused on discussion and sharing that more > standards-directed ones, but I'm a bit uncomfortable with the open-endedness of > the charter. While there are bounds on the scope, there are no real success > criteria that we can use to evaluate this WG after a certain period of time. > > Would it be worthwhile to BoF this first to set some basic milestones for this > WG? Do we already have these milestones in someone's head, that we can write > down? > > I definitely support formation of a WG with this theme, with a little > tightening as described above. > > > > > From nobody Wed Feb 3 11:35:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E20813A10D2; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 11:35:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id doNbadvjz14Z; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 11:35:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x131.google.com (mail-il1-x131.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1896B3A10C1; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 11:35:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x131.google.com with SMTP id z18so330985ile.9; Wed, 03 Feb 2021 11:35:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9/Uk6HuFhKcon6SqXTMKIiFgQYzQ0U7y6GKYXcTG2vI=; b=P6TK9OaDl3jCh01QZMkMIQzY1viUxCNw6EKfiiqrZUpZbffS53g0CBtRid/tfMkd3R 7HIMWzSu/wvstYZJeUJlGdZvhWaC1htFj4Q/LttW2QMMIUPwbR4TSIrhtEO6ONZhuDLh VTWkJ4+L3mMbui91kFtZ9aDPDdZIuc8ByE739jjvgDY9gupni67G9NFWQKntj6ryEDf+ 84vSTrcup0ytZLDNoyHP+wmMl+aTcu8MwpqBdn0wzHvfoHu+/lI8+9W3OcQD0Tz2J/SL 9pEHDWBwbPVagWc6i2Nz5+4vcP1FOvXwUE6nspwJtLtshDYgzTr+YgGo0Q5ZrPloIgNa IWkw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9/Uk6HuFhKcon6SqXTMKIiFgQYzQ0U7y6GKYXcTG2vI=; b=Y9USVhw2hX51gqArURoYIYy9efZomGqn1PQ9YEkgFp3MSSBRwI4gCEwF67fRnImEUd wzxpva9usGC1UJjc/eVbgpUyYh5iRXohAm2tfCHMYrEpB5ylnAuaxUL6BODp94VwXMeR wUoIcdbdasPphiF/2u2S5Og1QtLSWP8s62PTGd5WGx3htuLl9pBZeJDDVov9QFdYprZD 4MknvmX98dH2y5Qo7ewQIBcaYMfItvHkCrN8KIOYoOIz/RO+O8bcm5UorOZP3EZCs8EJ 1YIKelKV33n+9vjyCX7ogO7csIRw14KoVe59QEOBQLEfiw6xupgooZh6j+LuP3uMmVN4 eIvA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5305/Eb8Wvkl3K5zvnzLun44HSwGDGP8tz9iiMJ+5scVGPgdyCYo lpbNu1UV4nXvtYuEw9+tAywg2DXl8u99LF4UyqI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxG78o/SfOid3/N8YL5af0kf0p2aLEGGGM5dIP615RWvj/julzV0fnhEkV6uq7YFzbSHX27djg0T0wRy1F9KCA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1185:: with SMTP id y5mr3891575ili.237.1612380935386; Wed, 03 Feb 2021 11:35:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <161237796111.9705.9707026334703340484@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Martin Duke Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 11:35:30 -0800 Message-ID: To: Barry Leiba Cc: The IESG , iotops-chairs@ietf.org, iotops@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e57a3005ba73b0dc" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] Martin Duke's Block on charter-ietf-iotops-00-17: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2021 19:35:44 -0000 --000000000000e57a3005ba73b0dc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" That sounds like a satisfactory solution to me. On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 11:25 AM Barry Leiba wrote: > I don't know how this happened, but I accidentally sent the following > to Martin along, rather than to the list: > > -------------------------------- > I look at it the other way: I think we're often being too restrictive, > and that we should charter *more* working groups of this nature. I > really don't understand the objection to it. > > We've tried doing this in different ways, with things like the > Exploratory Groups experiment, but changes like that aren't well > understood and don't tend to succeed. But just putting it into the > Working Group context with goals that are still clear but less > concrete seems workable (and is working in MOPS, for example). > > Lars moved in that sort of direction for the IRTF when he chaired it, > and it worked: go do your work for a year, and if it looks right at > that point, you're official. I think that for working groups it's > better to make the charter official and kill it after a year if it's > not working, but it amounts to something close to the same thing. > -------------------------------- > > In a resultant exchange with Martin, he noted to me the lack of > clarity on "if it looks right", and I see the point there. Maybe we > can have a few more words about how we can evaluate the success of the > working group if it does not produce documents under charter scope > items (3) or (4)? I could get behind that, if we don't wrap ourselves > around an axle about it. > > Barry > > On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 1:46 PM Martin Duke via Datatracker > wrote: > > > > Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for > > charter-ietf-iotops-00-17: Block > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-iotops/ > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > BLOCK: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > I hate to do this the second time through, but I'm happy to clear it > after the > > telechat after a brief discussion makes it clear I am very wrong... > > > > I recognize that this WG is more focused on discussion and sharing that > more > > standards-directed ones, but I'm a bit uncomfortable with the > open-endedness of > > the charter. While there are bounds on the scope, there are no real > success > > criteria that we can use to evaluate this WG after a certain period of > time. > > > > Would it be worthwhile to BoF this first to set some basic milestones > for this > > WG? Do we already have these milestones in someone's head, that we can > write > > down? > > > > I definitely support formation of a WG with this theme, with a little > > tightening as described above. > > > > > > > > > > > --000000000000e57a3005ba73b0dc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That sounds like a satisfactory solution to me.
<= br>
On Wed,= Feb 3, 2021 at 11:25 AM Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org> wrote:
I don't know how this happened, but I = accidentally sent the following
to Martin along, rather than to the list:

--------------------------------
I look at it the other way: I think we're often being too restrictive,<= br> and that we should charter *more* working groups of this nature.=C2=A0 I really don't understand the objection to it.

We've tried doing this in different ways, with things like the
Exploratory Groups experiment, but changes like that aren't well
understood and don't tend to succeed.=C2=A0 But just putting it into th= e
Working Group context with goals that are still clear but less
concrete seems workable (and is working in MOPS, for example).

Lars moved in that sort of direction for the IRTF when he chaired it,
and it worked: go do your work for a year, and if it looks right at
that point, you're official.=C2=A0 I think that for working groups it&#= 39;s
better to make the charter official and kill it after a year if it's not working, but it amounts to something close to the same thing.
--------------------------------

In a resultant exchange with Martin, he noted to me the lack of
clarity on "if it looks right", and I see the point there.=C2=A0 = Maybe we
can have a few more words about how we can evaluate the success of the
working group if it does not produce documents under charter scope
items (3) or (4)?=C2=A0 I could get behind that, if we don't wrap ourse= lves
around an axle about it.

Barry

On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 1:46 PM Martin Duke via Datatracker
<noreply@ietf.org<= /a>> wrote:
>
> Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-iotops-00-17: Block
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<= br> > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut thi= s
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-= ietf-iotops/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
> BLOCK:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
>
> I hate to do this the second time through, but I'm happy to clear = it after the
> telechat after a brief discussion makes it clear I am very wrong... >
> I recognize that this WG is more focused on discussion and sharing tha= t more
> standards-directed ones, but I'm a bit uncomfortable with the open= -endedness of
> the charter. While there are bounds on the scope, there are no real su= ccess
> criteria that we can use to evaluate this WG after a certain period of= time.
>
> Would it be worthwhile to BoF this first to set some basic milestones = for this
> WG? Do we already have these milestones in someone's head, that we= can write
> down?
>
>=C2=A0 I definitely support formation of a WG with this theme, with a l= ittle
>=C2=A0 tightening as described above.
>
>
>
>
>
--000000000000e57a3005ba73b0dc-- From nobody Wed Feb 3 11:42:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59A2A3A10D7; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 11:42:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HNsHcr_96phT; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 11:42:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE8703A0B9E; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 11:42:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4968; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1612381359; x=1613590959; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=9mLvMOWUlrpsthsciYOCOcmVYD7Jgq4GLh9Cdlx/Z5g=; b=hxQT//yUFl7Klc2+I8Y1gEIIX5dS+FP+bnc5vkVfzNpC3yryly5M+G2O VMfD1olD6d7a1Mag9V3h6ZI1sTIf5xXwYdc1CII1bTT1AuynA+KsHQ31h bl2nyeKZZIybgON+pRJZMoxixpBTPDn8DLYkx4h6QLYC/AYfmrianKUCB g=; X-Files: signature.asc : 488 X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DsAQCS+xpglxbLJq1iHQEBAQEJARIBBQUBgg8Cgx9WA?= =?us-ascii?q?SMSMYRAiQSIUgOaW4FoBAcBAQEKAwEBGAsMBAEBhAZEAoF9JjgTAgMBAQEDA?= =?us-ascii?q?gMBAQEBBQEBAQIBBgQUAQEBAQEBAQGGNg1DARABhR4BAQEDAQEBIUsLBQsLG?= =?us-ascii?q?CoCAicwBhODJgGCZiAPsEF2gTKEVEFEhGkKBoE4AYFSi2xBggCBESccglY+g?= =?us-ascii?q?l0BAQMBgSYBEgGDOjSCLASCJ4EDASUZGFskDQUzPXMDj1KCbYlJmyuBFIMEg?= =?us-ascii?q?ymBOoRTjSiFJAMfgy+KRpUrn1yReV6DcgIEBgUCFoFtIWlwMxoIGxU7KgGCP?= =?us-ascii?q?j4SGQ2OLQ4JiGKFRkADMDcCBgEJAQEDCYZAhVUBAQ?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.79,399,1602547200"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="33125830" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 03 Feb 2021 19:42:34 +0000 Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp4285.cisco.com (ams3-vpn-dhcp4285.cisco.com [10.61.80.188]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 113JgXsj005814 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 3 Feb 2021 19:42:34 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <07A626EE-0A52-477E-A877-A9C3333CD8D5@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_681CE171-6A25-4FAC-9042-0C2B5869EF46"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 20:42:33 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: Martin Duke , iotops-chairs@ietf.org, The IESG , iotops@ietf.org To: Barry Leiba References: <161237796111.9705.9707026334703340484@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.80.188, ams3-vpn-dhcp4285.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] Martin Duke's Block on charter-ietf-iotops-00-17: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2021 19:42:41 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_681CE171-6A25-4FAC-9042-0C2B5869EF46 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Barry, To me this will be difficult. The problem is that it will work when we = don=E2=80=99t see disparate incompatible architectures popping up in = different working groups where they don=E2=80=99t even know the other = exists. I am hoping that the result is also that the use cases for some = of the items in (1) will be more broadly laid out. But again, I don=E2=80= =99t know how to measure that. I think having a few architectural documents come out of the group that = discuss the landscape of the IETF for IOT wouldn=E2=80=99t kill us. So = changing (4) to include such sorts of documents as informational = non-normative descriptions of what we and others have and what we lack = would be nice. Eliot > On 3 Feb 2021, at 20:25, Barry Leiba wrote: >=20 > I don't know how this happened, but I accidentally sent the following > to Martin along, rather than to the list: >=20 > -------------------------------- > I look at it the other way: I think we're often being too restrictive, > and that we should charter *more* working groups of this nature. I > really don't understand the objection to it. >=20 > We've tried doing this in different ways, with things like the > Exploratory Groups experiment, but changes like that aren't well > understood and don't tend to succeed. But just putting it into the > Working Group context with goals that are still clear but less > concrete seems workable (and is working in MOPS, for example). >=20 > Lars moved in that sort of direction for the IRTF when he chaired it, > and it worked: go do your work for a year, and if it looks right at > that point, you're official. I think that for working groups it's > better to make the charter official and kill it after a year if it's > not working, but it amounts to something close to the same thing. > -------------------------------- >=20 > In a resultant exchange with Martin, he noted to me the lack of > clarity on "if it looks right", and I see the point there. Maybe we > can have a few more words about how we can evaluate the success of the > working group if it does not produce documents under charter scope > items (3) or (4)? I could get behind that, if we don't wrap ourselves > around an axle about it. >=20 > Barry >=20 > On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 1:46 PM Martin Duke via Datatracker > wrote: >>=20 >> Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for >> charter-ietf-iotops-00-17: Block >>=20 >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this >> introductory paragraph, however.) >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-iotops/ >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> BLOCK: >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>=20 >> I hate to do this the second time through, but I'm happy to clear it = after the >> telechat after a brief discussion makes it clear I am very wrong... >>=20 >> I recognize that this WG is more focused on discussion and sharing = that more >> standards-directed ones, but I'm a bit uncomfortable with the = open-endedness of >> the charter. While there are bounds on the scope, there are no real = success >> criteria that we can use to evaluate this WG after a certain period = of time. >>=20 >> Would it be worthwhile to BoF this first to set some basic milestones = for this >> WG? Do we already have these milestones in someone's head, that we = can write >> down? >>=20 >> I definitely support formation of a WG with this theme, with a little >> tightening as described above. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > -- > Iotops mailing list > Iotops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iotops --Apple-Mail=_681CE171-6A25-4FAC-9042-0C2B5869EF46 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmAa/KkACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejMnlggAhPIndEjL2PlJzxHsDlHMx24LpFavcW/B8Pd9qMrpmYGrdkWFv7zwgzNi hMWyDLc7rqAcPd7plA8B5cV9PovrIYSfxxaDJJ1pFT6pfsEt5lloFAW2em3FnZVv hBl6o87J6VRN9IoPNh4tKiSsgzljJIOMPseShMLNn70bHe8yBMCGpi6XTk6EQLcF Q+4t2hcoqCnxBm7rI/A+o9Cg2i8B75SyHK47RMtjNtnZAUxJ3IsMri9bhkfHN/Mb AZYIhOxEA+OyZ3LE4DSVG5PisIxID11FlG/2EKXWEg4082EyhlqQe7Gf2D1r7n9h 7rhVCK8e1pRBX/JYnCK2dtzjkFFNaw== =4hcn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_681CE171-6A25-4FAC-9042-0C2B5869EF46-- From nobody Wed Feb 3 12:18:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10B673A1117; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 12:18:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.402 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.402 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z0C1KrF2bjfd; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 12:18:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-f51.google.com (mail-lf1-f51.google.com [209.85.167.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 715B93A1116; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 12:18:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-f51.google.com with SMTP id p21so1001361lfu.11; Wed, 03 Feb 2021 12:18:31 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=iqR6rmOGDRg8RN4g6cO+g55GU0tDV7l48F0tKSKnJjA=; b=QB55nlZH4MOjP87sSA24j1LcaFcOIhv1hR2r3Jr2IR/Q6VfGyz16XRPWuWC1wlRnuV elf1UnED/f18N5xxGMtSpDQMvRyF+r5XqTXdVtcOvz01ZChwyOkom2EkwrMrb+pBHEtK FmZS9E0VOHaB5bMRndqBYuoukclb+qqIgn2hYqUarXPGo5rTSaK9ORvENMJyhENxFNZx G8ioXxh6ofwvKbDHEJQ03kp9pqZ1DIhXytFDLne66i9WI/X3dv1ie7FJZgSIq+u2zU+a lVngRZZyBD14m6yQS73McoQslll689cqNE4hcfcsWM6KSmii5eaqyj9rHOITR3Fq5KJk 60Pg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533NQt2FDA/FX4QHjQFEEoGRwiR3Is1cEAzkPUBZHUL4aUSe6qOw hd2FWiRP/PJwUAygjEWzcum6aCsmA0f1YOTwrnQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwjHOAxwG3UhTm/4tUs5Rn+XuJCE2q4UTRAPNAoW9ln4N4vtItAdjUeeKxJlYBmSCvXKS/BXHXL/MUHw7hKqwI= X-Received: by 2002:a19:8186:: with SMTP id c128mr2580361lfd.377.1612383509308; Wed, 03 Feb 2021 12:18:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <161237796111.9705.9707026334703340484@ietfa.amsl.com> <07A626EE-0A52-477E-A877-A9C3333CD8D5@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <07A626EE-0A52-477E-A877-A9C3333CD8D5@cisco.com> From: Barry Leiba Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 15:18:17 -0500 Message-ID: To: Eliot Lear Cc: Martin Duke , iotops-chairs@ietf.org, The IESG , iotops@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] Martin Duke's Block on charter-ietf-iotops-00-17: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2021 20:18:33 -0000 > To me this will be difficult. The problem is that it will work when > we don=E2=80=99t see disparate incompatible architectures popping up in > different working groups where they don=E2=80=99t even know the other exi= sts. > I am hoping that the result is also that the use cases for some of the > items in (1) will be more broadly laid out. But again, I don=E2=80=99t k= now > how to measure that. I can't speak for Martin, and I already have a Yes ballot here. But what I would think appropriate would be for the working group to draft a report to the IESG summarizing what the group has accomplished. I don't know whether that should be annual, or just once after the first year. I don't know whether it needs to be a WG consensus thing, or just a report from the WGCs. But it would probably be useful both as a checkpoint for this working group and as a demonstration to the IESG that working groups such as this have value and should be considered more often. > I think having a few architectural documents come out of the group > that discuss the landscape of the IETF for IOT wouldn=E2=80=99t kill us. = So > changing (4) to include such sorts of documents as informational > non-normative descriptions of what we and others have and what we lack > would be nice. Clearly, if the working group is producing documents, they can be used to assess the effectiveness of the group in more traditional ways, sure. I'm looking at how to show that "think tank" or "discussion" working groups can be a useful addition to our repertoire. Barry From nobody Wed Feb 3 13:04:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81D333A11AD; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 13:04:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vKj-3OKq2s1C; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 13:04:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F3EE3A1189; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 13:04:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1785; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1612386241; x=1613595841; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=mMJULFkGAzYwAoS7SLQShc98f5F8rye3QopY/c12rA8=; b=jTWW3yVXCSflHHcDkee9wWXoRSqlPm11o0+DyTcwStp5CsIu5NI2XhXx XSrf9yOrK75LqyfsIFnT/8Wqjtu1TCaiNOujVsWoE32xBuy3hkIf/cbzW UbKapx5NAW1TPEpPfxc0xJx7FNcLdhScggA2NakJYhXB/GNMQuzn8R0Xy U=; X-Files: signature.asc : 488 X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AcAAD2DhtglxbLJq1iHAEBAQEBAQcBARIBAQQEAQGBf?= =?us-ascii?q?QUBAQsBg3YBIxIxhECJBIhUmkeBfAQHAQEBCgMBAS8EAQGESgKBfSY2Bw4CA?= =?us-ascii?q?wEBAQMCAwEBAQEFAQEBAgEGBBQBAQEBAQEBAYZDhXMBAQEDASNWBQsLGCoCA?= =?us-ascii?q?lcGE4MmAYJmILBUdoEyhVmEaxCBOAGBUotsQYIAgREnHIJWPodXNIIsBIIng?= =?us-ascii?q?QeCF4EwkkKJSZw/gwSDKYE6lx8DH6MgsjODcgIEBgUCFoFdBSyBWTMaCBsVZ?= =?us-ascii?q?QGCPj4SGQ2OLQ4JjihAAzA3AgYBCQEBAwmMFQEB?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.79,399,1602547200"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="33188949" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 03 Feb 2021 21:03:57 +0000 Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp4285.cisco.com (ams3-vpn-dhcp4285.cisco.com [10.61.80.188]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 113L3tH3014607 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 3 Feb 2021 21:03:56 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <5C0A8959-4C5F-46B7-8AD7-56627CFB9E47@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_14199FE4-65A3-455B-99F2-09000D13E5D8"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 22:03:54 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: Martin Duke , iotops-chairs@ietf.org, The IESG , iotops@ietf.org To: Barry Leiba References: <161237796111.9705.9707026334703340484@ietfa.amsl.com> <07A626EE-0A52-477E-A877-A9C3333CD8D5@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.80.188, ams3-vpn-dhcp4285.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] Martin Duke's Block on charter-ietf-iotops-00-17: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2021 21:04:05 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_14199FE4-65A3-455B-99F2-09000D13E5D8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 3 Feb 2021, at 21:18, Barry Leiba wrote: >=20 >> To me this will be difficult. The problem is that it will work when >> we don=E2=80=99t see disparate incompatible architectures popping up = in >> different working groups where they don=E2=80=99t even know the other = exists. >> I am hoping that the result is also that the use cases for some of = the >> items in (1) will be more broadly laid out. But again, I don=E2=80=99t= know >> how to measure that. >=20 > I can't speak for Martin, and I already have a Yes ballot here. But > what I would think appropriate would be for the working group to draft > a report to the IESG summarizing what the group has accomplished. That sounds quite reasonable. This is definitely a horse of a different = color. Eliot --Apple-Mail=_14199FE4-65A3-455B-99F2-09000D13E5D8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmAbD7oACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejOP8wf/amvJtwXgZmPH0sRAIu3WfYORh6kyJKjv8OYRzzwIzgyoOISaudT2YtJW dvI2yv4yTsrPZ6eNdl31YC4nR7phjCwMIZgVEL02ZdkFcTJcti8JdeW0/CfuWxnY W93R7adsX25TeAbiWOvwtXXow1vpgpnVPf76Lc1p25ykG9FT7hKUhLgm5SMywVF6 MhBVyaoqe1N86NKIRS0iFz/453peISacOGAQppBfz8hytnzu+LEMecny0+UTGlTh /nhBZ2vpESXa0SsYC5WS3/y47s3oDse6pq6IqKVBdk9S7fuKRMBCD5h1kt7WYbO3 PYMMaovi5YkSVqFoEdz3OGoaNdTKkw== =dDb1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_14199FE4-65A3-455B-99F2-09000D13E5D8-- From nobody Wed Feb 3 15:49:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietf.org Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B23243A0C0D; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 15:49:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: iotops-chairs@ietf.org, iotops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.25.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Benjamin Kaduk Message-ID: <161239614970.457.2835937336431508459@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2021 15:49:09 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Iotops] Benjamin Kaduk's No Record on charter-ietf-iotops-00-17: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2021 23:49:10 -0000 Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-iotops-00-17: No Record When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-iotops/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nit: "includes, but is not limited to," should have two commas. IOTOPS provides a venue for IoT experts and other interested parties to engage in discussions of operational IoT requirements, as well as proposals for new uses of IP technology related to IoT devices and network operations. Why "IP technology" specifically as opposed "the IP suite" or even "IETF technologies"? 4) Documenting requirements. Requirements for what, or perceived as such by whom? From nobody Wed Feb 3 15:54:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietf.org Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6D5F3A0C4C; Wed, 3 Feb 2021 15:54:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: iotops-chairs@ietf.org, iotops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.25.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Benjamin Kaduk Message-ID: <161239645573.8138.11045799305982964121@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2021 15:54:15 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Iotops] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on charter-ietf-iotops-00-17: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2021 23:54:16 -0000 Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-iotops-00-17: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-iotops/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nit: "includes, but is not limited to," should have two commas. IOTOPS provides a venue for IoT experts and other interested parties to engage in discussions of operational IoT requirements, as well as proposals for new uses of IP technology related to IoT devices and network operations. Why "IP technology" specifically as opposed "the IP suite" or even "IETF technologies"? 4) Documenting requirements. Requirements for what, or perceived as such by whom? From nobody Thu Feb 4 11:32:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietf.org Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9265C3A175D; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 11:32:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Martin Duke via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: iotops-chairs@ietf.org, iotops@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.25.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Martin Duke Message-ID: <161246717251.13844.7537433604051041765@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2021 11:32:52 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Iotops] Martin Duke's Yes on charter-ietf-iotops-00-18: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2021 19:32:53 -0000 Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-iotops-00-18: Yes When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-iotops/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for addressing my BLOCK. I might like the report to also propose some milestones, if that's appropriate. From nobody Thu Feb 4 13:33:19 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C47063A1863 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 13:33:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3tDFCNvKDtdp for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 13:33:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x133.google.com (mail-lf1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B54B53A185E for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 13:33:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x133.google.com with SMTP id h12so6760313lfp.9 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2021 13:33:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jOCOroDb/yDhj5RXEJjFPPQTxC8CQyrwGOkrh4gv0G0=; b=MAeqVzn+Ky1vTg/ttZzT2JKGASdSG6qcPJYmzxbyoBEYqA56AFSAZ7E6p4qNDm2SNR 6Jzh2zAz1t0glbWismQKrOABzActEcJgOCDZNC269+GVi3uyXraFrQzj73XssKSxd/BM UvejqcHgR7vFrjzzkwVzQNZXSkCmPp1LtkE8ql9LTVsDAgVAKn5SVevtMDzJNsMjrhJg DlctgUEv+MI3jkaj8xk57UCTld7Oe7+bUWixp/82kdc2etXDIr7rG/pSYY3dd4T4YCwS dGadXErNe4e1mYQjdFOXcRXgPnU0eGO0ib1rwgw0ZgCA4i6dJSduJzLo2N4EF0Kk3dYb /izA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jOCOroDb/yDhj5RXEJjFPPQTxC8CQyrwGOkrh4gv0G0=; b=DXVHt1Mdr5OGJxxIuGDV1TD/ZzDi5x1JcP0j+9aUeBf8oICxDKufNkYIGxHIFOgohH xw8KyQUHEFwCZHr5fHqDGKvwkCnrq64RApltx4zQnNLqkwDPBeSKcvoT7Uu3InB8fBEV X7uF2b2gv1vFeM9/DbGuKJUJ5vZq7/uOQ1b6b6S/cGk+vf6spKymy9r3YlSxN3GVrA8S JpD+sKNRsPKp0SRUaWQlbyJDvViXEe6M+m5OByQ+FcjSrvzN8e7c/+PyPH3TBP6zkjPu rpiukkVsmmg+Okie/JxYRYi9POo+4xsSWxMiegPFsy2I/PsHv0fTYYZ/tWYZ7K6gX8zu yRRw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533H6dG1lMRC0hxJuRitZHaY+a+ht2blX3WDGrWGn9XP31tLEqHf pX6cs8G6bPuOqWFuJJLAA0xsHBy/Hjae+bb38966Bg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx5mxQkKoLh0VLNdNo9P+RkM245a+qYbVKxIanKTLbNxeshuETXYzdcXbEP7uS2okUTrLnnpLl60IYfVsT0hW0= X-Received: by 2002:a19:9c4:: with SMTP id 187mr665766lfj.419.1612474390669; Thu, 04 Feb 2021 13:33:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <161246717251.13844.7537433604051041765@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <161246717251.13844.7537433604051041765@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Warren Kumari Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 16:32:31 -0500 Message-ID: To: Martin Duke Cc: The IESG , iotops-chairs@ietf.org, iotops@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] Martin Duke's Yes on charter-ietf-iotops-00-18: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2021 21:33:18 -0000 On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 2:32 PM Martin Duke via Datatracker wrote: > > Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-iotops-00-18: Yes > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-iotops/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks for addressing my BLOCK. > > I might like the report to also propose some milestones, if that's approp= riate. Sure. > > > --=20 The computing scientist=E2=80=99s main challenge is not to get confused by = the complexities of his own making. -- E. W. Dijkstra From nobody Thu Feb 4 13:36:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8367A3A1867 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 13:36:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vqRRhVG7k5Gi for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 13:36:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x233.google.com (mail-lj1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E00E53A1868 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 13:36:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x233.google.com with SMTP id a25so5296250ljn.0 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2021 13:36:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=6fjc8GhVeSFHfYDDonvRYZhkpPt6wOudc59a0kStst8=; b=nTPe/anoPUm1piZp3Gqd0SVmubcHPncNhch0c7lM66TImg+xM2wcQ2DKT906RsbA3g kTw5Z1ogG7nqIQZI5p0QtQHczzfUwlcoJW4odm5St0mIY3IkoXuLy2YJMXAQhTFiCft6 qxj1h6W6Gsrxb5ZruNabgKdjgfCgRDQcUgxT0pHAmeoPjJDnEQRwQjkhKVm2XrHT+Tv6 Mot2QTairNiy8UQzaIT+YYwismbfkfkytoVTfwOMAQfCk94Gu5Wh41G7qYoB8uvokbtA Ar2NdQcPK5dquxlZ+rcj+FCh2g5WGn9HKIH4Ao9r7ggHHnCxin/wt/R3+KYAtOpUy4m9 PTOg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=6fjc8GhVeSFHfYDDonvRYZhkpPt6wOudc59a0kStst8=; b=opKJjAJuKtvxhsZ4/FnkRDC2p2r69C4jSGxFD+qgIHFG06YuqfPj9qqNEAwHY1hEZN oTJcZH85oCju90yLrbeVcYkCVnO0EgPtM01EQmI63DEFZ3XS6FHjtsMirrggCnsBihrs t3vB5LUhXPyX8mVKd0QRDrukYMIk44d7ynpHKkmyKWTRDxHoranpuk5DMGZWR47iLbHu dSaEYX1DO++deOM45IcKCPyOIBwdqxpuXcZzgsJbI1qD/Ajzu8wFWWvkHWieWZ8mOoOG CftzVdQ7/cKGN6JWTbDiSftbF7FWjTYnhiRVP5ZON2hzj11kVgiHmvwDE/mM/ym4ZHQd tQVg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ojoECbTfqpnvQnnl+FII2MpxE6PoNV3GFgRNkny1swgNR6rET v3M3QedaFmGEdo4G7KoYDKBFlzwuG9PMdga9JJdRsg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxvFNhMJaqad8CHwJIWA1pc+gVoWwwJLT1JlKn0yfA/cxu03j7iovuSdGVEbZGCSWD3dx1gEfMQ024NXZo134s= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9819:: with SMTP id a25mr758058ljj.502.1612474560686; Thu, 04 Feb 2021 13:36:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <161246717251.13844.7537433604051041765@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Warren Kumari Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 16:35:21 -0500 Message-ID: To: Martin Duke Cc: The IESG , iotops-chairs@ietf.org, iotops@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] Martin Duke's Yes on charter-ietf-iotops-00-18: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2021 21:36:06 -0000 On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 4:32 PM Warren Kumari wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 2:32 PM Martin Duke via Datatracker > wrote: > > > > Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for > > charter-ietf-iotops-00-18: Yes > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-iotops/ > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > COMMENT: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Thanks for addressing my BLOCK. > > > > I might like the report to also propose some milestones, if that's appr= opriate. > > Sure. Slightly longer, less pissy sounding response[0]: Sure, and thank you for your suggestions and working through your block position with us. W [0]: Juggling mail is hard. > > > > > > > > > > -- > The computing scientist=E2=80=99s main challenge is not to get confused b= y the > complexities of his own making. > -- E. W. Dijkstra --=20 The computing scientist=E2=80=99s main challenge is not to get confused by = the complexities of his own making. -- E. W. Dijkstra From nobody Fri Feb 5 10:11:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietf.org Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69EA23A0E00; Fri, 5 Feb 2021 10:11:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.25.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: The IESG , iotops-chairs@ietf.org, iotops@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <161254868941.18465.1677940885094079436@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2021 10:11:29 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Iotops] WG Action: Formed IOT Operations (iotops) X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2021 18:11:29 -0000 A new IETF WG has been formed in the Operations and Management Area. For additional information, please contact the Area Directors or the WG Chairs. IOT Operations (iotops) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Current status: Proposed WG Chairs: Henk Birkholz Alexey Melnikov Assigned Area Director: Warren Kumari Operations and Management Area Directors: Warren Kumari Robert Wilton Mailing list: Address: iotops@ietf.org To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iotops Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/iotops/ Group page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/iotops/ Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-iotops/ The IOTOPS Working Group is chartered for the discussion of operational issues related to Internet of Things (IoT) devices, in particular related to device onboarding and lifecycle management. IoT has a rather nebulous definition with different meanings for different people. For the purposes of this WG, its focus is on devices that - are networked, either to the Internet or within limited administrative domains - have a very limited end user interface or no end-user interface at all - are deployed in sufficiently large numbers that they cannot easily be managed or maintained manually The IETF works on a number of technologies related to IoT. This includes, but is not limited to work done in ACE, ANIMA, CBOR, CORE, DRIP, LAKE, LPWAN, LWIG, ROLL, SUIT, TEEP, 6LO, 6TISCH, and other working groups. IOTOPS is intended to be a discussion venue where people can discuss how various IoT-related technologies fit together. IOTOPS provides a venue for IoT experts and other interested parties to engage in discussions of operational IoT requirements, as well as proposals for new uses of IP technology related to IoT devices and network operations. Revision, updates, and extensions to work from existing WGs will be done in those WGs. Where new work may be needed, IOTOPS will help identify candidate venues within IETF for their development. IOTOPS WG charter is restricted to: 1) Taking input and discussing issues related to the operational management of IoT devices. This includes (but is not limited to): - factory provisioning of devices - onboarding of devices - access control of devices to network resources - administrative control of devices - software/firmware upgrades - isolation/quarantine of devices - remediation of broken devices - end of life management of devices 2) Taking input and discussing issues related to IoT operational security. 3) Publishing operational practices. 4) Documenting requirements. Approximately one year after chartering, the WG chairs will prepare a report for the IESG summarizing what the group has accomplished; this is both as a checkpoint for this working group and as a demonstration to the IESG that this style of working groups such as this have value and should be considered more often. From nobody Sat Feb 6 12:13:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2B803ADE96; Sat, 6 Feb 2021 12:13:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VBeJwmpcgzgj; Sat, 6 Feb 2021 12:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 192AA3ADE57; Sat, 6 Feb 2021 12:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.152] (p5089a828.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DY3Pt4WWxzyjt; Sat, 6 Feb 2021 21:13:22 +0100 (CET) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 21:13:22 +0100 Message-Id: <76DBD589-9658-4D89-9CC7-4F863A787D08@tzi.org> To: asdf@ietf.org, coin@irtf.org, iotops@ietf.org, danish@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: [Iotops] Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF110: DRAFT AGENDA X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2021 20:13:26 -0000 Here is my usual eclectic condensed agenda based on the DRAFT AGENDA for IETF110. Remember that there is still quite some potential for changes. The IoT-relevant conflicts that meet the eye this time are LAKE/RATS, IOTOPS/COSE, CORE/DANISH, in order from hurtful to disastrous (ROLL/SUIT and LPWAN/RATS are probably bearable). All times *on my agenda* are in UTC (the default page is UTC+0100). https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda-utc might be handy. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten MONDAY, March 1, 2021 1600-1800 Hackathon Kickoff Rm 1 GEN hackathon Hackathon THURSDAY, March 4, 2021 1700-1900 Technology Deep Dive Rm 1 tdd Technology Deep Dive FRIDAY, March 5, 2021 1600-1800 Hackathon Closing Rm 1 GEN hackathon Hackathon MONDAY, March 8, 2021 1200-1400 Session I Rm 1 ART dispatch Dispatch WG - Joint with ARTAREA Rm 2 IRTF irtfopen IRTF Open Meeting Rm 6 RTG raw Reliable and Available Wireless WG Rm 8 SEC emu EAP Method Update WG 1430-1530 Session II Rm 1 ART *** asdf A Semantic Definition Format for Data = and Interactions of Things WG Rm 3 IRTF panrg Path Aware Networking RG Rm 5 RTG detnet Deterministic Networking WG Rm 7 SEC mls Messaging Layer Security WG 1600-1800 Session III Rm 2 ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Rm 7 SEC tls Transport Layer Security WG Rm 8 TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG TUESDAY, March 9, 2021 1200-1400 Session I Rm 1 ART webtrans WebTransport WG Rm 3 INT 6man IPv6 Maintenance WG Rm 6 RTG bier Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG Rm 8 SEC *** lake Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange = WG Rm 9 SEC *** rats Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG 1430-1530 Session II Rm 3 OPS *** iotops IOT Operations WG Rm 4 RTG babel Babel routing protocol WG Rm 5 RTG detnet Deterministic Networking WG Rm 7 SEC acme Automated Certificate Management = Environment WG Rm 8 SEC *** cose CBOR Object Signing and Encryption WG 1600-1800 Session III Rm 3 INT *** drip Drone Remote ID Protocol WG Rm 5 OPS v6ops IPv6 Operations WG Rm 8 SEC gnap Grant Negotiation and Authorization = Protocol WG WEDNESDAY, March 10, 2021 1200-1400 Session I Rm 1 ART jsonpath JSON Path WG Rm 2 INT intarea Internet Area Working Group WG Rm 3 IRTF icnrg Information-Centric Networking Rm 8 SEC privacypass Privacy Pass WG Rm 9 TSV quic QUIC WG 1430-1530 Session II Rm 4 INT *** lpwan IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks = WG Rm 5 IRTF qirg Quantum Internet Research Group Rm 6 OPS anima Autonomic Networking Integrated Model = and Approach WG Rm 8 SEC *** rats Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG Rm 9 TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG THURSDAY, March 11, 2021 1200-1400 Session I Rm 2 INT *** 6lo IPv6 over Networks of = Resource-constrained Nodes WG Rm 3 INT add Adaptive DNS Discovery WG Rm 4 INT dnssd Extensions for Scalable DNS Service = Discovery WG - Joint with HOMENET Rm 4 INT homenet Home Networking WG - Joint with DNSSD Rm 8 SEC saag Security Area Open Meeting Rm 9 TSV tsvarea Transport Area Open Meeting 1430-1530 Session II Rm 1 ART wpack Web Packaging WG Rm 4 IRTF pearg Privacy Enhancements and Assessments = Research Group Rm 5 RTG *** roll Routing Over Low power and Lossy = networks WG Rm 6 SEC openpgp Open Specification for Pretty Good = Privacy WG Rm 7 SEC *** suit Software Updates for Internet of Things = WG 1600-1800 Session III Rm 2 INT 6man IPv6 Maintenance WG Rm 4 IRTF*** t2trg Thing-to-Thing Rm 7 RTG rtgarea Routing Area Open Meeting - Joint with = RTGWG Rm 8 SEC secdispatch Security Dispatch WG Rm 9 TSV masque Multiplexed Application Substrate over = QUIC Encryption WG FRIDAY, March 12, 2021 1200-1400 Session I Rm 1 ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Rm 3 IRTF cfrg Crypto Forum Rm 7 RTG rift Routing In Fat Trees WG Rm 8 SEC *** danish DANE AutheNtication for Iot Service = Hardening BOF 1430-1530 Session II Rm 1 ART *** cbor Concise Binary Object Representation = Maintenance and Extensions WG Rm 3 INT add Adaptive DNS Discovery WG Rm 5 IRTF maprg Measurement and Analysis for Protocols 1600-1800 Session III Rm 2 ART httpapi Building Blocks for HTTP APIs WG Rm 3 IRTF coinrg Computing in the Network Research Group Rm 7 SEC *** ace Authentication and Authorization for = Constrained Environments WG From nobody Thu Feb 11 06:28:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2EA63A07DA for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 06:28:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=isode.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oNqXfCbqrG-M for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 06:28:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from statler.isode.com (Statler.isode.com [62.232.206.189]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA2BC3A0C04 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 06:28:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1613053718; d=isode.com; s=june2016; i=@isode.com; bh=qLb6RledO3Pdfipnt9abGNWNX6x2sJAugiUXfEJ+ZVM=; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:Cc:MIME-Version: In-Reply-To:References:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description; b=nefvn5icPdLHonJJ0W4APzKuoWBH7JliUWGrI+QEsrhQ25yVb27ku+TuXRM6Xh/Q3z1v5Z PjjnIIBC1Uh4SKzUew9Y+OWwKFrOHHwfSynzNTf8YL/GNe2pszc/isacUxCErnVy3uHjhL jnaYf4viriN4cj7gAEVm7Pqd49vKOqQ=; Received: from [192.168.1.222] (host81-151-37-172.range81-151.btcentralplus.com [81.151.37.172]) by statler.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPSA id ; Thu, 11 Feb 2021 14:28:38 +0000 To: iotops@ietf.org Cc: Henk Birkholz From: Alexey Melnikov Message-ID: <463df667-a2ce-61ed-500b-d862cf32fd2d@isode.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 14:28:29 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: [Iotops] Request for agenda items for the virtual IETF 110 X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 14:28:43 -0000 Hi all, If you haven't been following chartering of IOTOPS, I can confirm that the WG was chartered. Henk Birkholz and I were selected by IESG as co-chairs of IOTOPS. You can find the latest approved charter text here: We will have our first 1 hour meeting during IETF 110 (the week from March 8th till 12th). The agenda is not final yet, so I can't tell you when the meeting will be. This should hopefully settle by early next week. In the meantime, can you please send your requests for agenda items either by replying to this email or by emailing direct to iotops-chairs@ietf.org. The latter will go directly to Henk and me. Best Regards, Alexey From nobody Fri Feb 12 16:37:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietf.org Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE7933A11CC; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 16:33:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: iotops@ietf.org, warren@kumari.net X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.25.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <161317641188.31337.16607902010429758469@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 16:33:31 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Iotops] iotops - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 110 X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 00:33:40 -0000 Dear Liz Flynn, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. iotops Session 1 (1:00 requested) Tuesday, 9 March 2021, Session II 1530-1630 Room Name: Room 5 size: 505 --------------------------------------------- iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/110/sessions/iotops.ics Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: IOT Operations Area Name: Operations and Management Area Session Requester: Liz Flynn Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1 Hour Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: dmarc emailcore opsawg extra jmap Technology Overlap: ace anima cbor core drip lake lpwan lwig roll suit teep 6lo 6tisch Key Participant Conflict: rats People who must be present: Alexey Melnikov Henk Birkholz Warren "Ace" Kumari Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Feb 12 23:17:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F4593A100F; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 23:17:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F611MSUV11XF; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 23:17:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29BF03A1007; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 23:17:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a828.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Dd1sh47bqzyVg; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 08:17:44 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <161317644525.31431.310014135854162428@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 08:17:44 +0100 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 634893464.024832-414b81d6f0f250105199936cac9d38a5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <161317644525.31431.310014135854162428@ietfa.amsl.com> To: asdf@ietf.org, iotops@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] IETF 110 Final Agenda X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 07:17:49 -0000 Asdf now on IoTops? I hope we all have honed our omnipresence skills. (And it=E2=80=99s a one-hour slot, so we can=E2=80=99t even meaningfully = split it.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sat Feb 13 00:35:02 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D4003A0C59; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 00:34:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CMo5IEJiSuot; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 00:34:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23CDB3A0C77; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 00:34:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.152] (p5089a828.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Dd2RG29hYzyVg; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 08:43:22 +0100 (CET) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 08:43:22 +0100 Message-Id: <9E853509-1781-42BC-A04F-D63A6884A965@tzi.org> To: asdf@ietf.org, coin@irtf.org, iotops@ietf.org, danish@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: [Iotops] Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF110: "FINAL" AGENDA X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 08:34:54 -0000 Here is my usual eclectic condensed agenda based on the "FINAL" AGENDA for IETF110. Remember that further agenda changes can still happen. A number of changes have been made with respect to the draft agenda. CBOR has moved to Monday into what was ASDF's slot, and ASDF is now on top of IOTOPS (ugh). COSE has moved into Friday's middle slot that had been used by CBOR. Other conflicts that remain are LAKE/RATS, CORE/DANISH -- you just can't do both IoT application layer and IoT security this time (ROLL/SUIT and LPWAN/RATS are probably bearable). All times *on my agenda* are in UTC (the default page is UTC+0100). https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda-utc might be handy, and the main agenda tool now has an awesome timezone selection tool. Note that both EU and US are still on winter time (standard time) then; the US moves forward on Mar 14 with the EU following Mar 28 -- we'll have two weeks of confusion this time right after the IETF. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten MONDAY, March 1, 2021 1600-1800 Hackathon Kickoff Rm 1 GEN hackathon Hackathon THURSDAY, March 4, 2021 1700-1900 Technology Deep Dive Rm 1 tdd Technology Deep Dive FRIDAY, March 5, 2021 1600-1800 Hackathon Closing Rm 1 GEN hackathon Hackathon MONDAY, March 8, 2021 1200-1400 Session I Rm 1 ART dispatch Dispatch WG - Joint with ARTAREA Rm 2 IRTF irtfopen IRTF Open Meeting Rm 6 RTG raw Reliable and Available Wireless WG Rm 8 SEC emu EAP Method Update WG 1430-1530 Session II Rm 1 ART *** cbor Concise Binary Object Representation = Maintenance and Extensions WG Rm 2 IRTF maprg Measurement and Analysis for Protocols Rm 3 RTG detnet Deterministic Networking WG Rm 5 RTG rift Routing In Fat Trees WG Rm 6 SEC mls Messaging Layer Security WG 1600-1800 Session III Rm 2 ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Rm 3 ART webtrans WebTransport WG Rm 7 SEC tls Transport Layer Security WG Rm 8 TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG TUESDAY, March 9, 2021 1200-1400 Session I Rm 3 INT 6man IPv6 Maintenance WG Rm 6 RTG bier Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG Rm 8 SEC *** lake Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange = WG Rm 9 SEC *** rats Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG 1430-1530 Session II Rm 1 ART *** asdf A Semantic Definition Format for Data = and Interactions of Things WG Rm 4 INT add Adaptive DNS Discovery WG Rm 5 OPS *** iotops IOT Operations WG Rm 6 RTG babel Babel routing protocol WG Rm 7 RTG detnet Deterministic Networking WG Rm 9 SEC acme Automated Certificate Management = Environment WG 1600-1800 Session III Rm 3 INT *** drip Drone Remote ID Protocol WG Rm 5 OPS v6ops IPv6 Operations WG Rm 8 SEC gnap Grant Negotiation and Authorization = Protocol WG Rm 9 TSV masque Multiplexed Application Substrate over = QUIC Encryption WG WEDNESDAY, March 10, 2021 1200-1400 Session I Rm 2 ART jsonpath JSON Path WG Rm 3 IRTF icnrg Information-Centric Networking Rm 8 SEC *** teep Trusted Execution Environment = Provisioning WG Rm 9 TSV quic QUIC WG 1430-1530 Session II Rm 4 INT *** lpwan IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks = WG Rm 5 IRTF qirg Quantum Internet Research Group Rm 6 OPS anima Autonomic Networking Integrated Model = and Approach WG Rm 8 SEC *** rats Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG Rm 9 TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG THURSDAY, March 11, 2021 1200-1400 Session I Rm 2 INT *** 6lo IPv6 over Networks of = Resource-constrained Nodes WG Rm 3 INT add Adaptive DNS Discovery WG Rm 4 INT dnssd Extensions for Scalable DNS Service = Discovery WG - Joint with HOMENET Rm 4 INT homenet Home Networking WG - Joint with DNSSD Rm 8 SEC saag Security Area Open Meeting Rm 9 TSV tsvarea Transport Area Open Meeting 1430-1530 Session II Rm 3 IRTF panrg Path Aware Networking RG Rm 6 RTG *** roll Routing Over Low power and Lossy = networks WG Rm 7 SEC openpgp Open Specification for Pretty Good = Privacy WG Rm 8 SEC *** suit Software Updates for Internet of Things = WG 1600-1800 Session III Rm 2 INT 6man IPv6 Maintenance WG Rm 4 IRTF*** t2trg Thing-to-Thing Rm 7 RTG rtgarea Routing Area Open Meeting - Joint with = RTGWG Rm 8 SEC secdispatch Security Dispatch WG FRIDAY, March 12, 2021 1200-1400 Session I Rm 1 ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Rm 3 IRTF cfrg Crypto Forum Rm 7 SEC *** danish DANE AutheNtication for Iot Service = Hardening BOF 1430-1530 Session II Rm 3 ART wpack Web Packaging WG Rm 4 INT intarea Internet Area Working Group WG Rm 6 IRTF pearg Privacy Enhancements and Assessments = Research Group Rm 8 SEC *** cose CBOR Object Signing and Encryption WG 1600-1800 Session III Rm 1 ART httpapi Building Blocks for HTTP APIs WG Rm 2 IRTF coinrg Computing in the Network Research Group Rm 6 SEC *** ace Authentication and Authorization for = Constrained Environments WG Rm 8 SEC privacypass Privacy Pass WG From nobody Sat Feb 13 10:19:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C31423A0957; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 10:19:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8DdQYWV1UXID; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 10:19:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBB463A094E; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 10:19:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A39838A6B; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 13:23:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 8v3yM_Y8CrmA; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 13:23:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CB3338A6A; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 13:23:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2645F5B2; Sat, 13 Feb 2021 13:19:45 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Carsten Bormann , asdf@ietf.org, iotops@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <161317644525.31431.310014135854162428@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Asdf] IETF 110 Final Agenda X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 18:19:50 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Carsten Bormann wrote: > Asdf now on IoTops? Wow. That's super annoying to me. > I hope we all have honed our omnipresence skills. (And it=E2=80=99s = a one-hour > slot, so we can=E2=80=99t even meaningfully split it.) =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmAoGEAACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVEdwf/cvm0jn+YkU6RgyOn91adNNrrAmMDYUswhpin+2HiSn7tVzX83WfjYpDV Tbg421tUNHB2yENWQqgYspoVQjKSFhPj5iW5O2CU/lKh2gTp8q4Q31G+FCKnGwka tRz4zTHqFWIX6v+6NiNuM0321xJxm36RBN0ZjXyqk69bf9j/8AirUgMKXybQHGk1 4H97cIQggxWLj8X+67P2aqulaWSLCR12/KBXHK8dBYfpEqNSU8za6s8AXzerHP6A nPlF4IYjZPNNZTvpv9LFp4QbzqeoZZWnGfWDW0B5U6zadGJDqhkbd3TMv8lvou0R f1y+iPQuZ9N0fLHyXd1NcgRekuOXkA== =qjBA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Feb 14 23:56:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD2393A0DA1; Sun, 14 Feb 2021 23:56:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.47 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.47 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.57, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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boundary="_000_HE1PR0702MB38187B9C2B337FC94BF1066C8A889HE1PR0702MB3818_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: HE1PR0702MB3818.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: a608340c-2610-4bce-a106-08d8d1873c8c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Feb 2021 07:56:43.8475 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 3CS88/3qt+ERpJueWfG/4fagoLNz0KRqgjFIL3Ae9LUbpaJm2CDY/lQy4zBZrK5qeEcyiD0RwOYFYI++ExOPbhh9+BYRQIeU3t4+50n7jhc= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR0702MB3657 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Asdf] IETF 110 Final Agenda X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 07:56:49 -0000 --_000_HE1PR0702MB38187B9C2B337FC94BF1066C8A889HE1PR0702MB3818_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2021-02-13, 19:20, "ASDF" wrote: Carsten Bormann wrote: > Asdf now on IoTops? Wow. That's super annoying to me. Indeed, exceptionally inconvenient, I assume many in ASDF (me included) als= o want to listen into the IOTOPS BoF. --_000_HE1PR0702MB38187B9C2B337FC94BF1066C8A889HE1PR0702MB3818_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

&nbs= p;

On 2021-02-13, 19:20, &= quot;ASDF" <asdf-bounces@ietf.org> wrote:




Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
    > Asdf now on IoTops?

Wow.  That's super annoying to me.

= Indeed, exceptionally inconvenient, I assume many in ASDF (me included) als= o want to listen into the IOTOPS BoF.


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ESMTP id CEA7F38988; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 12:23:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id LBHP0EO-En1O; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 12:23:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E9EE38983; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 12:23:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDCE79E; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 12:19:44 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: =?us-ascii?Q?=3D=3Futf-8=3FB=3FR8O2cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVy=3F=3D?= , "iotops\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <49569FF2-938B-4584-B290-F16558F352F5@ericsson.com> References: <49569FF2-938B-4584-B290-F16558F352F5@ericsson.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] Error categories in constrained IoT authentication X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 17:19:49 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable G=C3=B6ran Selander wrote: > Hello IOTOPS, > There is a discussion in the LAKE WG regarding the potential need to > standardize error messages appearing in a security handshake protocol > targeting IoT devices. Is this something IOTOPS could contribute to > and/or review? Maybe. > Assuming this might be the case, here is a background and some draft > error categories for discussion. > Background: > --- > LAKE is specifying a lightweight authenticated Diffie-Hellman exchange > called EDHOC [1] similar to the TLS 1.3 handshake but targeting > constrained IoT. The protocol consists of 3 messages and an error > message which may be sent in response to any non-error message. The > error message essentially consists of a diagnostic message field > containing a text string targeting the peer administrator. > All errors are fatal and cause the protocol to discontinue. The intent > with the error message is to provide a hint about the error to the pe= er > application, to enable logging of errors and appropriate management > operations. (Note that since the protocol failed to establish security > the error message is unprotected and needs to be treated accordingly.) > The question is what error messages need to be standardized, if any. > Detailed information can be provided by using the diagnostic text > string. But standardizing detailed error information adds complexity = to > the specification and implementation, which would contradict one of t= he > design objectives. But perhaps we can we identify a small set of error > categories (codes) that require to be singled out, for example because > how they impact operations. Such categories could potentially be > complemented with text providing additional details. I am imaging that the resulting error codes are not just sent to the peer, but might be link-local multicast. They *could* be object signed by the sen= ding device! It is pretty clear how to do cheap multicast over wired and 802.11, but what multicast means over an route-over LLN-mesh remains to be determined: it's not free. Consider the situation of being able to plug a diagnostic device into the home LAN, and be able to find out what devices are failing in what way. Significant privacy risk, for sure. There could be some kind of blind applied so that the devices are not immediately recognizable. That could be as easy as just not including a strong identity. But, security which fails in ways nobody can diagnose, is security that get= s turned off. I think that there is a sweet spot where we could get enough information to do further investigation, while not blasting useless information around. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmAqrTAACgkQgItw+93Q 3WV8TQf8DE/5pddEk4PVsLa07H3jktEduYcviTZzdQOPIoWOQ6NtuV3hQnkRW6X+ NFCiuJB66pWOGDAMSqv180B0uRp3w4Lowk68eFVSeHN32US3FjowJVnMiIgZJFvI ymyM+pvJ1JvvE3oR0+ZRo3Bou46wGJYUXLBHF8AQnbfPeXBCZAf/JqsTklsMLUMI 1tYukSJsmo52X0enUH6N3iRW+H3rJkZVIgFyGQvITLzgiGyVLFHlmhxAt2RPkrpC FUyENXtM4CppZ5SOSmzF/NMT82wBBkkNNeC/hCxyFMepiz6yocz52KtMqs/4urrm cPK2cDuwdL7vyt9zclPQi2+r8xOj8w== =AYdF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Feb 15 15:00:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22AE53A12A5; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 15:00:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m_ieQQ0neufW; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 15:00:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 026DE3A0C8A; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 15:00:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FBAD38998; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 18:03:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id eSiS4BoHLmcF; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 18:03:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 408A038996; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 18:03:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C77789DD; Mon, 15 Feb 2021 18:00:19 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson CC: Russ Housley to: "iot-directorate\@ietf.org" , iotops@ietf.org, danish@ietf.org Reply-to: iotops@ietf.org, danish@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <49163B0D-3952-4DE8-8915-6DC6D50F851C@vigilsec.com> References: <49163B0D-3952-4DE8-8915-6DC6D50F851C@vigilsec.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Iot-directorate] SCVP X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2021 23:00:26 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For others: SCVP =3D Server-Based Certificate Validation Protocol RFC5055. Russ Housley wrote: > I have recently learned that the US Department of Treasury operates an > SCVP responder associated with the US Government's PKI: > https://vssapi.treasury.gov/vss/docs/treas_scvp_profile_v1.3.pdf BTW: This URL returns no MIME type, so sane browsers assume text/plain, so you'll have to save-as, as load it locally. The diagram of the federal PKI is truly impressive. Is the software that they run available? > This Got me to thinking about an IoT device trying to construct a > certification path in this complex PKI environment. Such a SCVP > responder could be used to offload this task. There could be battery > consumption to send the request and get the response; however, it may > very well be less battery than doing the certification path > construction itself. There are three considerations in the analysis in my opinion: 1) the network energy cost of connecting. 2) the local energy cost of being awake to receive the reply. 3) the network energy cost of retrieving the relevant certificate chains. I think that a major win for IoT devices on challenged networks is being ab= le to avoid retrieving any of the subordinate or intermediate CRLs/OCSP results along the way. This feels like a service that a powered IoT gateway ought to provide. This eliminates much of the trust issue. Also, the odds are all the devices in a sensor network would have to valida= te much of the same complex path, so caching would work well. However, I have yet to see any IoT system that has a PKI more complex than two levels of private PKI. But, perhaps that's because more complex scenarios wouldn't work with SCVP. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmAq/QMACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXLDQf+PYJglYZANrhbGuHhw8hq7SOSxn9BnSPKp9QYIA5awOBOMckNBzObqBAG /R/NewERSN9T7KZ+knWXpJvwSNIuCTV66naE/t4c863cYaqxGvgqyRXQLmvh7XeP WUcvgdUBNeQpshpj3FSJs00dPOOpuBniDqkeDwkNEHHRjH5YZ/VGbtxToB6NHsGq Yg3TYydt/VwlhPhTpNzubsZ0Tccs7t3ALJKxpMxP7RRWK6PIJMYqb7JoSdnBFv3x rOvAlXWJjSZJBsnUsR7zcLI1bzFBL8mqYvt8pf89cIEk9sE8w0nf2OmgIno9POF/ phkwILz0Ip9AbrWJDzGFiVKAi7NmDw== =XzXo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Feb 15 23:39:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB0EA3A0FD3 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 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Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:31:53 +0000 From: Esko Dijk To: =?utf-8?B?R8O2cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVy?= , "iotops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Iotops] Error categories in constrained IoT authentication Thread-Index: AQHXA7sevPYsVE9D80KdsgQDTgiUsqpZdgoAgAEA24D///fKEA== Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 08:31:53 +0000 Message-ID: References: <49569FF2-938B-4584-B290-F16558F352F5@ericsson.com> <27125.1613409584@localhost> <7FFB63D7-801D-4E8B-8257-BE9BCF7BA6BF@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <7FFB63D7-801D-4E8B-8257-BE9BCF7BA6BF@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: dmarc.ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc.ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=iotconsultancy.nl; x-originating-ip: [2001:1c02:3104:5700:a55b:2db8:d682:cc0e] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 65cb01e2-c61c-4c7f-e367-08d8d2555081 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM4P190MB0065: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: 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Zw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pb3RvcHMNCg== From nobody Tue Feb 16 06:00:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6762B3A098D; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 06:00:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iYJ1nxsVBQ4g; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 06:00:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.hardakers.net (mail.hardakers.net [168.150.192.181]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8DF53A098A; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 06:00:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (unknown [10.0.0.3]) by mail.hardakers.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 4B54327889; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 06:00:21 -0800 (PST) From: Wes Hardaker To: Michael Richardson Cc: "iot-directorate@ietf.org" , iotops@ietf.org, danish@ietf.org, Russ Housley References: <49163B0D-3952-4DE8-8915-6DC6D50F851C@vigilsec.com> <1182.1613430019@localhost> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 06:00:21 -0800 In-Reply-To: <1182.1613430019@localhost> (Michael Richardson's message of "Mon, 15 Feb 2021 18:00:19 -0500") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Danish] [Iot-directorate] SCVP X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 14:00:23 -0000 Michael Richardson writes: > > however, it may very well be less battery than doing the > > certification path construction itself. > > There are three considerations in the analysis in my opinion: > 1) the network energy cost of connecting. > 2) the local energy cost of being awake to receive the reply. > 3) the network energy cost of retrieving the relevant certificate chains. I think that's a great point. DANE is likely far less energy intensive than full PKI -- but you probably need data to prove it (number of CPU instructions needed or something for full validation via both certificate verification approaches) -- Wes Hardaker USC/ISI From nobody Tue Feb 16 09:30:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 821B03A0CD3 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 09:30:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LnF6vdbKhr7u for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 09:30:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 227473A0CD2 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 09:30:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0480C38983; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:34:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id rmFEBLXaQoWy; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:34:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A08ED3897F; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:34:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BE3FA3; Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:30:36 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: =?us-ascii?Q?=3D=3Futf-8=3FB=3FR8O2cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVy=3F=3D?= cc: "iotops\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <7FFB63D7-801D-4E8B-8257-BE9BCF7BA6BF@ericsson.com> References: <49569FF2-938B-4584-B290-F16558F352F5@ericsson.com> <27125.1613409584@localhost> <7FFB63D7-801D-4E8B-8257-BE9BCF7BA6BF@ericsson.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] Error categories in constrained IoT authentication X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 17:30:42 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable G=C3=B6ran Selander wrote: mcr> I think that there is a sweet spot where we could get enough mcr> information to do further investigation, while not blasting useless mcr> information around. GS> Exactly this was the intent with the draft error categories A-G in = my GS> previous mail. Are they doing a good job? They get close, but they only describe complete failures, and they may need to announce intermediate progress, or even failures to even begin. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmAsATwACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUhawgAhR3Y+w2UjxhclL9Z1s6GcD857fGJjkHv+bSbtcxnTjbaRN/OznZMa/C5 QpzsruSWFFZsH827IUCIxZ4gbrkQ7yK9i0I6xf+qCgIsnDXvhgZh7T6imEgKHe2e dKlu7jChEKdEtmQMG3ueQKcBAIrduaT28ztPZWRmElJfnER4FmNL4CywgA5hGN63 TOIv48DUHyYf37Q/G8s1zXs+L1nQX3Bolc+LeHYY7a5bVcX6iu6CK+28O68e3YL+ oaRLRsRhdoL5cP1vmBgkmF/kI/LsbKgmrx6RVfW2aVE92MT4e8soGRWH3u/AXU/Q J1drvSJz6CuDxln3YkxHG3ofkfQugA== =Ef9c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Feb 19 03:08:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EF1E3A144D; 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Fri, 19 Feb 2021 11:07:51 +0000 From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" To: Niklas Widell , "Michael Richardson" , Carsten Bormann , "asdf@ietf.org" , "iotops@ietf.org" , "iotops-chairs@ietf.org" , "asdf-chairs@ietf.org" CC: Warren Kumari Thread-Topic: [Asdf] IETF 110 Final Agenda Thread-Index: AQHXA3ApCaVJB2q1GEWpwqr4bbmXdqpfVkjA Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 11:07:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <161317644525.31431.310014135854162428@ietfa.amsl.com> ,<6153.1613240385@localhost> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: dmarc.ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc.ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [82.12.233.180] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 03ecaa54-123d-4444-ea3b-08d8d4c69925 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB4677: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:4941; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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boundary="_000_MN2PR11MB4366007E06C7B8A43DFF6307B5849MN2PR11MB4366namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR11MB4366.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 03ecaa54-123d-4444-ea3b-08d8d4c69925 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Feb 2021 11:07:50.9408 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: k6FxwxL4E7v1hfziKjjiaN23DYbHy350PLsrp58H9qcSAdJnoVfnoeVebDTg4NpQ8K564vf49tuZ70a1jluwQw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB4677 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.13, xch-aln-003.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-11.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Asdf] IETF 110 Final Agenda X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 11:08:27 -0000 --_000_MN2PR11MB4366007E06C7B8A43DFF6307B5849MN2PR11MB4366namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, We have moved ASDF to Thursday Session 1 (12-2 pm UTC) to deconflict ASDF w= ith IOTOPS. Obviously IOTOPS has only just been chartered which is why the conflict was= missed (sorry, I should have spotted this when the agenda was last changed= ). Hopefully the IOTOPS chairs and ASDF chairs can add this potential conf= lict for future scheduling. Regards, Rob From: Iotops On Behalf Of Niklas Widell Sent: 15 February 2021 07:57 To: Michael Richardson ; Carsten Bormann ; asdf@ietf.org; iotops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Asdf] IETF 110 Final Agenda On 2021-02-13, 19:20, "ASDF" > wrote: Carsten Bormann > wrote: > Asdf now on IoTops? Wow. That's super annoying to me. Indeed, exceptionally inconvenient, I assume many in ASDF (me included) als= o want to listen into the IOTOPS BoF. --_000_MN2PR11MB4366007E06C7B8A43DFF6307B5849MN2PR11MB4366namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,<= /o:p>

&nbs= p;

We have m= oved ASDF to Thursday Session 1 (12-2 pm UTC) to deconflict ASDF with IOTOP= S.

&nbs= p;

Obviously= IOTOPS has only just been chartered which is why the conflict was missed (= sorry, I should have spotted this when the agenda was last changed).  = Hopefully the IOTOPS chairs and ASDF chairs can add this potential conflict for future scheduling.

&nbs= p;

Regards,<= o:p>

Rob<= /o:p>

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;

From: Iotops <iotops-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Niklas Widell
Sent: 15 February 2021 07:57
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; Carsten Borman= n <cabo@tzi.org>; asdf@ietf.org; iotops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Asdf] IETF 110 Final Agenda=

 

 

&nbs= p;

On 2021-02-13, 19:20, &= quot;ASDF" <asdf-bounces@i= etf.org> wrote:

 


Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wr= ote:
    > Asdf now on IoTops?

Wow.  That's super annoying to me.

= Indeed, exceptionally inconvenient, I assume many in ASDF (me included) als= o want to listen into the IOTOPS BoF.

--_000_MN2PR11MB4366007E06C7B8A43DFF6307B5849MN2PR11MB4366namp_-- From nobody Fri Feb 19 03:49:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 162643A09BB; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 03:49:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pwmqAGesKo2z; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 03:49:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3EC83A09CD; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 03:48:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p5089a828.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.168.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Dhqbr6v37zySV; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 12:48:56 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 12:48:56 +0100 Cc: Niklas Widell , Michael Richardson , "asdf@ietf.org" , "iotops@ietf.org" , "iotops-chairs@ietf.org" , "asdf-chairs@ietf.org" , Warren Kumari X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 635428136.1159739-9854ac391002f0fc02b9b337b47d0706 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5777F16D-0F89-49BD-9A00-B5D9FA5D1875@tzi.org> References: <161317644525.31431.310014135854162428@ietfa.amsl.com> <6153.1613240385@localhost> To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Asdf] IETF 110 Final Agenda X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 11:49:08 -0000 Thank you! Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On 2021-02-19, at 12:07, Rob Wilton (rwilton) = wrote: >=20 > Hi, > =20 > We have moved ASDF to Thursday Session 1 (12-2 pm UTC) to deconflict = ASDF with IOTOPS. > =20 > Obviously IOTOPS has only just been chartered which is why the = conflict was missed (sorry, I should have spotted this when the agenda = was last changed). Hopefully the IOTOPS chairs and ASDF chairs can add = this potential conflict for future scheduling. > =20 > Regards, > Rob > =20 > =20 > From: Iotops On Behalf Of Niklas Widell > Sent: 15 February 2021 07:57 > To: Michael Richardson ; Carsten Bormann = ; asdf@ietf.org; iotops@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Asdf] IETF 110 Final Agenda > =20 > =20 > =20 > On 2021-02-13, 19:20, "ASDF" wrote: > =20 >=20 >=20 > Carsten Bormann wrote: > > Asdf now on IoTops? >=20 > Wow. That's super annoying to me. >=20 > Indeed, exceptionally inconvenient, I assume many in ASDF (me = included) also want to listen into the IOTOPS BoF.=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > ASDF mailing list > ASDF@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/asdf From nobody Fri Feb 19 03:57:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A6AE3A097E; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 03:57:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.67 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.67 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.57, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YvrOmc034Jaq; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Rob, Thanks a lot for sorting this out. Cheers, Niklas On 2021-02-19, 12:49, "Carsten Bormann" wrote: Thank you! Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten > On 2021-02-19, at 12:07, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: > > Hi, > > We have moved ASDF to Thursday Session 1 (12-2 pm UTC) to deconflict ASDF= with IOTOPS. > > Obviously IOTOPS has only just been chartered which is why the conflict w= as missed (sorry, I should have spotted this when the agenda was last chang= ed). Hopefully the IOTOPS chairs and ASDF chairs can add this potential co= nflict for future scheduling. > > Regards, > Rob > > > From: Iotops On Behalf Of Niklas Widell > Sent: 15 February 2021 07:57 > To: Michael Richardson ; Carsten Bormann ; asdf@ietf.org; iotops@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Asdf] IETF 110 Final Agenda > > > > On 2021-02-13, 19:20, "ASDF" wrote: > > > > Carsten Bormann wrote: > > Asdf now on IoTops? > > Wow. That's super annoying to me. > > Indeed, exceptionally inconvenient, I assume many in ASDF (me included) a= lso want to listen into the IOTOPS BoF. > > > -- > ASDF mailing list > ASDF@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/asdf --_000_HE1PR0702MB381809EF2A5CEA0F44F3CA548A849HE1PR0702MB3818_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Rob,

Thanks a lot for sorting this out.

 

Cheers,

Niklas

 

&nbs= p;

On 2021-02-19, 12:49, &= quot;Carsten Bormann" <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:



Thank you!

Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten


> On 2021-02-19, at 12:07, Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton=3D40cisco.co= m@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> 
> We have moved ASDF to Thursday Session 1 (12-2 pm UTC) to deconflict A= SDF with IOTOPS.
> 
> Obviously IOTOPS has only just been chartered which is why the conflic= t was missed (sorry, I should have spotted this when the agenda was last ch= anged).  Hopefully the IOTOPS chairs and ASDF chairs can add this pote= ntial conflict for future scheduling.
> 
> Regards,
> Rob
> 
> 
> From: Iotops <iotops-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Niklas Widel= l
> Sent: 15 February 2021 07:57
> To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; Carsten Bormann = <cabo@tzi.org>; asdf@ietf.org; iotops@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Asdf] IETF 110 Final Agenda
> 
> 
> 
> On 2021-02-13, 19:20, "ASDF" <asdf-bounces@ietf.org> w= rote:
> 
>
>
> Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>     > Asdf now on IoTops?
>
> Wow.  That's super annoying to me.
>
> Indeed, exceptionally inconvenient, I assume many in ASDF (me included= ) also want to listen into the IOTOPS BoF.
>
>
> --
> ASDF mailing list
> ASDF@ietf.org
> https://www.iet= f.org/mailman/listinfo/asdf

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Fri, 19 Feb 2021 12:24:07 +0000 From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" To: Niklas Widell , "Carsten Bormann" CC: "iotops-chairs@ietf.org" , "iotops@ietf.org" , Michael Richardson , "asdf-chairs@ietf.org" , "asdf@ietf.org" , Warren Kumari Thread-Topic: [Asdf] IETF 110 Final Agenda Thread-Index: AQHXA3ApCaVJB2q1GEWpwqr4bbmXdqpfVkjAgAANPwCAAAJBAIAABwVw Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 12:24:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <161317644525.31431.310014135854162428@ietfa.amsl.com> <6153.1613240385@localhost> , <5777F16D-0F89-49BD-9A00-B5D9FA5D1875@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: dmarc.ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc.ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [82.12.233.180] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 8a69abf2-688d-4ad1-f108-08d8d4d14101 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB4631: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; 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boundary="_000_MN2PR11MB4366183A0DD7B6FAF47B344EB5849MN2PR11MB4366namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR11MB4366.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 8a69abf2-688d-4ad1-f108-08d8d4d14101 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Feb 2021 12:24:07.5865 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: vXMIE/2Ju5ocZRiFTb+9e0RV+uuhw1iVrjdB8FW0bq8h2c/tTJtcXL3o8CWMOXQyto8tmdkIiAxMlBfQ02UuXw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB4631 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.13, xch-aln-003.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Asdf] IETF 110 Final Agenda X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 12:24:13 -0000 --_000_MN2PR11MB4366183A0DD7B6FAF47B344EB5849MN2PR11MB4366namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To be fair, the credit is due to Warren and Liz who fixed this. I'm just b= eing the messenger :-) Thanks, Rob From: Iotops On Behalf Of Niklas Widell Sent: 19 February 2021 11:57 To: Carsten Bormann ; Rob Wilton (rwilton) Cc: iotops-chairs@ietf.org; iotops@ietf.org; Michael Richardson ; asdf-chairs@ietf.org; asdf@ietf.org; Niklas Widell ; Warren Kumari Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Asdf] IETF 110 Final Agenda Hi Rob, Thanks a lot for sorting this out. Cheers, Niklas On 2021-02-19, 12:49, "Carsten Bormann" >= wrote: Thank you! Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten > On 2021-02-19, at 12:07, Rob Wilton (rwilton) > wrote: > > Hi, > > We have moved ASDF to Thursday Session 1 (12-2 pm UTC) to deconflict ASDF= with IOTOPS. > > Obviously IOTOPS has only just been chartered which is why the conflict w= as missed (sorry, I should have spotted this when the agenda was last chang= ed). Hopefully the IOTOPS chairs and ASDF chairs can add this potential co= nflict for future scheduling. > > Regards, > Rob > > > From: Iotops > On= Behalf Of Niklas Widell > Sent: 15 February 2021 07:57 > To: Michael Richardson >; Carsten Bormann >; asdf@ietf.org; iotops@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Asdf] IETF 110 Final Agenda > > > > On 2021-02-13, 19:20, "ASDF" > wrote: > > > > Carsten Bormann > wrote: > > Asdf now on IoTops? > > Wow. That's super annoying to me. > > Indeed, exceptionally inconvenient, I assume many in ASDF (me included) a= lso want to listen into the IOTOPS BoF. > > > -- > ASDF mailing list > ASDF@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/asdf --_000_MN2PR11MB4366183A0DD7B6FAF47B344EB5849MN2PR11MB4366namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

To be fai= r, the credit is due to Warren and Liz who fixed this.  I’m just= being the messenger :-)

&nbs= p;

Thanks,

Rob<= /o:p>

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;

From: Iotops <iotops-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Niklas Widell
Sent: 19 February 2021 11:57
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; Rob Wilton (rwilton) <r= wilton=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: iotops-chairs@ietf.org; iotops@ietf.org; Michael Richardson <= mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; asdf-chairs@ietf.org; asdf@ietf.org; Niklas Wide= ll <niklas.widell=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Warren Kumari <= ;warren@kumari.net>
Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Asdf] IETF 110 Final Agenda=

 

Hi Rob,

Thanks a lot for sorting this out.

 

Cheers,

Niklas

 

&nbs= p;

On 2021-02-19, 12:49, &= quot;Carsten Bormann" <cabo@tzi.org= > wrote:

 

Thank you!

Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten


> On 2021-02-19, at 12:07, Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> 
> We have moved ASDF to Thursday Session 1 (12-2 pm UTC) to deconflict A= SDF with IOTOPS.
> 
> Obviously IOTOPS has only just been chartered which is why the conflic= t was missed (sorry, I should have spotted this when the agenda was last ch= anged).  Hopefully the IOTOPS chairs and ASDF chairs can add this pote= ntial conflict for future scheduling.
> 
> Regards,
> Rob
> 
> 
> From: Iotops <iotops-bou= nces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Niklas Widell
> Sent: 15 February 2021 07:57
> To: Michael Richardson <mc= r+ietf@sandelman.ca>; Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>; asdf@ietf.org; iotops@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Asdf] IETF 110 Final Agenda
> 
> 
> 
> On 2021-02-13, 19:20, "ASDF" <asdf-bounces@ietf.org> wrote:
> 
>
>
> Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org&g= t; wrote:
>     > Asdf now on IoTops?
>
> Wow.  That's super annoying to me.
>
> Indeed, exceptionally inconvenient, I assume many in ASDF (me included= ) also want to listen into the IOTOPS BoF.
>
>
> --
> ASDF mailing list
> ASDF@ietf.org
> https://www.iet= f.org/mailman/listinfo/asdf

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Fri, 19 Feb 2021 15:24:11 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ari_Ker=E4nen?= To: "iotops@ietf.org" CC: "t2trg@irtf.org" , "draft-sarikaya-t2trg-sbootstrapping@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Secure IoT Bootstrapping: A Survey Thread-Index: AQHXBsLOQVa0k47IzUeq1LUVg93bLA== Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 15:24:11 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [2001:14bb:1ca:1ac:f905:7222:859d:3354] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: ba9c3667-d47a-4aff-c2a0-08d8d4ea687a x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HE1PR0701MB2265: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: HE1PR07MB3226.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ba9c3667-d47a-4aff-c2a0-08d8d4ea687a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Feb 2021 15:24:11.2567 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: TjoPyHS4WsBvyE/FaMOFPmlAwKviR3E0xWz3P7vt/7TkTJTmx4LXNDLDe9KCp9tcq0hnWbaspxINa4ALA8bz3VXHTSFaJ6EGISyd9tfaqwM= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR0701MB2265 Archived-At: Subject: [Iotops] Secure IoT Bootstrapping: A Survey X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 15:24:35 -0000 Hi IoTOPS folks, At T2TRG the "Secure IoT Bootstrapping: A Survey" draft has been updated: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-sarikaya-t2trg-sbootstrapping/ The draft has been discussed and developed quite some time in the T2TRG and= we chairs think it's now getting close to ready for adoption. We would lik= e to hear views on this from the IoT operational community. In particular w= e'd like to hear if the technologies considered important for security setu= p and bootstrapping by this group are covered in the document. Thanks, Ari & Carsten From nobody Fri Feb 19 07:38:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1772E3A0FBB; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 07:38:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EbqBIXTHidQ8; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 07:38:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from aer-iport-2.cisco.com (aer-iport-2.cisco.com [173.38.203.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FBE93A0FB6; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 07:38:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1843; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1613749092; x=1614958692; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc: to:references; bh=0yefQufCKKjDKzXy5MbfboEAELuyOwNi/o4Vt/3YHCM=; b=cS3bm1cm9VJuM73hvr0ARqi0gKpqLHoHDOHufXQ+fnxM1K2Tj9bU4j5p 6F2fRwY3XXeB79DvM+TFNqMNsU7pvCNNxTfJheiXnNm32I5P256J46O5q aOetc7gOZyG+pMFTF4F88iwTMMp0DbTaStUxwgf+aqYliRWhpjg1c/UX2 k=; X-Files: signature.asc : 488 X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0A2AgDb2i9gjBbLJq1iHAEBAQEBAQcBARIBAQQEAQGCD?= =?us-ascii?q?4MhVgEnEjGEQYkEiC0onEgEBwEBAQoDAQEdCwwEAQGECUQCgg0mOBMCAwEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QMCAwEBAQEFAQEBAgEGBBQBAQEBhjoNhkQBAQEDAQEBFgtLCwULCxgqAgInM?= =?us-ascii?q?AYTFIJXAYJmIA+uAHaBMoRTQUSFAQoGgTiBU4tuQoICgTgMEIJXPoJdAQECA?= =?us-ascii?q?QGEcTSCKwSDKgRTW4EIQwWdH5xPgwWDLoE6hFOSVQMfk0iPeJ96kgFig3MCB?= =?us-ascii?q?AYFAhaBayGBWTMaCBsVOyoBgj4+EhkNjjiIaoVGQAMvAgE0AgYBCQEBAwmME?= =?us-ascii?q?wEB?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.81,189,1610409600"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="33576069" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 19 Feb 2021 15:38:07 +0000 Received: from [10.61.220.213] ([10.61.220.213]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 11JFbNNt013042 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 19 Feb 2021 15:38:07 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: <55009522-4B31-4248-B07F-5905B8BFB8CF@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FF8A6216-1B31-4476-88AB-E36556282755"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 16:38:06 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: "iotops@ietf.org" , "draft-sarikaya-t2trg-sbootstrapping@ietf.org" , "t2trg@irtf.org" To: =?utf-8?Q?Ari_Ker=C3=A4nen?= References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.220.213, [10.61.220.213] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] Secure IoT Bootstrapping: A Survey X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 15:38:14 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FF8A6216-1B31-4476-88AB-E36556282755 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Very well timed. I look forward to discussing this. Eliot > On 19 Feb 2021, at 16:24, Ari Ker=C3=A4nen = wrote: >=20 > Hi IoTOPS folks, >=20 > At T2TRG the "Secure IoT Bootstrapping: A Survey" draft has been = updated: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-sarikaya-t2trg-sbootstrapping/ >=20 > The draft has been discussed and developed quite some time in the = T2TRG and we chairs think it's now getting close to ready for adoption. = We would like to hear views on this from the IoT operational community. = In particular we'd like to hear if the technologies considered important = for security setup and bootstrapping by this group are covered in the = document. >=20 >=20 > Thanks, > Ari & Carsten >=20 > -- > Iotops mailing list > Iotops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iotops --Apple-Mail=_FF8A6216-1B31-4476-88AB-E36556282755 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmAv214ACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejM7EggAoAmIxihu/ADnpJAPPPJ1xqgdkxQ7YcpccsXx2Ns9yo7nlWT9qhc+N1FT swgqdAPfjyP55LnjpMrO26rw+AlqtWNI4jYE2zuxc6PhgB3z08DGvrUY5AQw+ELZ YoWWY+V2vYgmQ4+/NQoML+gfdRGuHlpSrijhZnpo+/0aGXbqFSrO2ViIZjel+Rqz zBS+a+XRZsp0bUL9f4VIyMk6RM1Zabe9SNogCHjKUByZoK7jDMRJtLHpuhqhuX9j zLR0EE3pmwmnSxQ2Zfkq8nZz/WMQYhQ76+Koj/PLB+bg1/rEFQuDnJNJ5Thl2T3t L/uK43xqH4GM5EWr6LHCTnvaPKBAOw== =QgqI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_FF8A6216-1B31-4476-88AB-E36556282755-- From nobody Fri Feb 19 09:13:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED7433A121C for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 09:13:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qA11kXV9pBes for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 09:13:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4354A3A12CA for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 09:13:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40A02389D1; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 12:17:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id LNwRbx9Iy7Ym; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 12:16:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61C4F389D0; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 12:16:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0D4863; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 12:13:06 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "iotops\@ietf.org" , Esko Dijk cc: =?us-ascii?Q?=3D=3Futf-8=3FB=3FR8O2cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVy=3F=3D?= In-Reply-To: References: <49569FF2-938B-4584-B290-F16558F352F5@ericsson.com> <27125.1613409584@localhost> <7FFB63D7-801D-4E8B-8257-BE9BCF7BA6BF@ericsson.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] Error categories in constrained IoT authentication X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 17:13:29 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Esko Dijk wrote: > And one security consideration just to keep in mind: too much detail = in > the error reporting is not good if it reveals information that an > attacker can use to do a next, more targeted attack. Too little is useless. I think that you explained it very well, and perhaps we can call this the "Law of Dijk" in the future :-) > The HTTP/CoAP, > Netconf, or (D)TLS error definitions could indeed provide some > inspiration on what to include. I found also an example of an error > code registry here: > https://www.iana.org/assignments/alto-protocol/alto-protocol.xhtml#er= ror-codes > this kind of registry could be used to keep track of the codes and any > extensions to it. How do you feel about non-failures, like, "I am trying to do X, but I am timing out. I am still trying" =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmAv8aIACgkQgItw+93Q 3WX7HAf9G5T8aUu2VuzmhND/xWBmWLXDb3HiwPIGFLo8ttKKOBa11xcTapAgSUnn XOuhXRAvA4Cz862S5roLbkl46lgy/Qb+JEaFnNEdhzgsaI5Y3pE01GY9iHCZg+EC l3cU5nH4Qqkf5OdSIO/DGbM1gShcbCkz6RyJAgPFedi+/8lffzJ3wia9o5zgEGlf 8QlzUC888+soUceE+3JnHvrM4zKrGz94tzAfiHqUg/WUdikZllHJ69Lbz++4ruWH at0etTV7oP08RqwLFqmjSgZGOdIlcJNAs372jH/WzJADOsycwqlb7iOKlDlmoJ8j tEpwKN4WQY7iEj+hAWHmBYZEM0oY8w== =UY7A -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Feb 21 11:08:04 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 745B23A0EEA; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 11:08:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id psBW0DQUvBR2; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 11:08:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B6353A0EE8; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 11:07:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC5DF389EB; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 14:11:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id h18fUT2u9t0g; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 14:11:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36664389E9; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 14:11:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B534FB2; Sun, 21 Feb 2021 14:07:56 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: opsawg@ietf.org cc: iotops@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <161375882679.28794.17399834722460314435@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <161375882679.28794.17399834722460314435@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Iotops] changes to draft-ietf-opsawg-mud-acceptable-urls-02.txt X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2021 19:08:03 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Title : Authorized update to MUD URLs > Authors : Michael Richardson > Wei Pan > Eliot Lear >A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-opsawg-mud-acceptable-urls= -02 The text of the document has been revised for better flow. Some content in the introduction has moved to section 3. Section 4, which is the core of the proposal has been slightly tweaked, but essentially remains the same: when signaling a changae to the MUD URL via insecure mechanisms that malware may control (DHCP, LLDP), only changes to the last component of the MUD URL are permitted. The new mud file may contain a new MUD-URL, which is substantially different from the original one, and this allows the manufacturer to re-organize their site (or even change sites entirely). But this is controlled because the n= ew file must be signed by the same signer as the original file. This document makes some statements in section 3.3 about pinning of the signing entity. This language is not at this point normative. This document has marked itself as a BCP in the header, although it has gro= wn some BCP14 language. It seems that it an error, that it should be standards in order track to Update RFC8520, and should include BCP14 language. How does the WG feel about that? The adoption call did not say anything about intended status. There is an option issue at the end of section 4: XXX: how should the trust anchor for the signature be updated when there is Merger&Acquisition) There are a number of different ways in which this could be handled. Getting it right, and making it interoperable would require that we make so= me more substantive normative statements about how the MUD controller pins the signing entity from the Manufacturer. While this seems slightly esoteric to worry about M&A actitivy, establishing the long-term identity of the manufacturer seems pretty important. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmAyr4wACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUkoQf/QBHkm+/XJWSdu/IgRf/b7rToC1wv1LQ8fXz9pwWVU+9y1cAijnkrOrhG 84R+ten2JxcnXBqTIZVj8q12i0o+1P2JbHyuJUpRhpPG8MT4KZmERzOAcYMtF1e5 zGOzyVPrhPjXCdnLSr0oiOLmsS0+cGuDuqjbTeCfUXkduDx5xOq5QMxS0q/s1X/b 3Cvly9wOdMUPnSja0RTPWjVeJN7/9iG0zxBBqBvIOHMAO75frR3vdN34SFOLR4hu Bcjwwohk9HkD2OCx4yyX5PBsF+T2A0IAAXGDxDMRmnTkfaAz2MtvpBtRPzaojFGh oxGyPtv4AsZiIKwpyj+aXP7GK6wZvQ== =JETd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Feb 22 06:57:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDAC03A0922 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 06:57:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4OJe7j7x6Arh for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 06:57:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A5393A0A29 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2021 06:55:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=6359; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1614005742; x=1615215342; h=from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:to; bh=mHhnI0YqEBRM5bdebOY/Gr6kjbTXybJ+qwlh4VhHI74=; b=RfCbaSzoVPeatCrGxJgrAR1C2ZqQv9T/VL7iKjqrcXG0Umgj3/gfZnQl qw7seBdaSVYPV0UJwCaKGHkuQOX18WVRWNy+QdnM2pvFSnLRw4a/Sv3++ b01AAu8MgiLi4JFJmRXdEoqsOffUnCLDUzCHAjb3n7+AwodykUT06kOQK M=; X-Files: signature.asc : 488 X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BMBgDuxDNgjBbLJq1iHgEBCxIMgzKBflYBJxKEcokEi?= =?us-ascii?q?C8lh3eMOYY1gWgEBwEBAQoDAQEsCAQBAYFYhQUmOBMCAwEBAQMCAwEBAQEFA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAgEGBBQBAQEBhjoNhm51PgJgLYJQAYMGD61BdoEyhD8BhXkQgTiBU4UoA?= =?us-ascii?q?YJTg3JCggKBEScMEIVyBBeBEQESAYM3NIIrBIJ0dReBEkhNEA+dCIsEkUuDB?= =?us-ascii?q?YMvgTyEU5JaAx+DMYE0jmaPeZRJggmJLJFZgQ2DcwIEBgUCFoFBKiFpcDMaC?= =?us-ascii?q?BsVZQGCPwg1EhkNjjiIaoVGQANnAgYBCQEBAwmMEwEB?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.81,197,1610409600"; d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="33572811" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-2.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 22 Feb 2021 14:55:38 +0000 Received: from [10.61.193.230] ([10.61.193.230]) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 11MEtbQc029392 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:55:38 GMT From: Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_90A2C8D0-9DC0-465E-9794-6B2980BC9013"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 15:55:36 +0100 To: iotops@ietf.org, T2TRG@irtf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.193.230, [10.61.193.230] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Iotops] GP workshop on onboarding X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2021 14:57:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_90A2C8D0-9DC0-465E-9794-6B2980BC9013 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_53B3CD12-41D2-4952-AD57-683B3B68FF47" --Apple-Mail=_53B3CD12-41D2-4952-AD57-683B3B68FF47 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Forwarding. The purpose of this is to continue the dialog around IoT = Onboarding. Eliot On Wednesday, 17 March, GlobalPlatform will host a free-to-attend =E2=80=98= IoT Device Secure Onboarding Solutions Workshop=E2=80=99. Taking place = from 8:00am to 11:30am PST, the workshop will provide delegates with an = update on industry approaches, and define priorities for the deployment = of secure services in components and devices. It will also provide = guidance on the management infrastructure of the associated protocols = related to device onboarding. Key contributors and topics include: Tim Polk (NIST) providing insight into the enterprise side of = onboarding. Peter Steinh=C3=A4user (embeDD) providing insight into the consumer side = of onboarding. Steve Hanna (Infineon) exploring Connected Home over IP. Geoffrey Cooper (Intel) presenting on FIDO Device Onboard. Michael Richardson (Sandelman Software Works) discussing Bootstrapping = Remote Secure Key Infrastructure (BRSKI:RFCabcd). Eliot Lear (Cisco) presenting on Device Provisioning Protocol (DPP). We are gathering interested parties and stakeholders, to: Engage the industry to be inclusive of existing approaches, by focusing = on a manageable few resulting solutions. Promote an open, standards-based approach to scalable, autonomous device = onboarding. Develop implementation guidelines, configurations, test suites and = certifications that ease deployment and usage of onboarding approaches, = for device use cases and network access technologies. Register now! = --Apple-Mail=_53B3CD12-41D2-4952-AD57-683B3B68FF47 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8


Forwarding.  The purpose of this = is to continue the dialog around IoT Onboarding.

Eliot


On Wednesday, 17 March, GlobalPlatform = will host a free-to-attend =E2=80=98IoT Device Secure Onboarding = Solutions Workshop=E2=80=99. Taking place from 8:00am to 11:30am PST, = the workshop will provide delegates with an update on industry = approaches, and define priorities for the deployment of secure services = in components and devices. It will also provide guidance on the = management infrastructure of the associated protocols related to device = onboarding.

Key contributors and topics = include:

  • Tim Polk (NIST) providing insight into the enterprise side of = onboarding.
  • Peter = Steinh=C3=A4user (embeDD) providing insight into the consumer side of = onboarding.
  • Steve Hanna = (Infineon) exploring Connected Home over IP.
  • Geoffrey Cooper (Intel) presenting on FIDO Device = Onboard.
  • Michael = Richardson (Sandelman Software Works) discussing Bootstrapping Remote = Secure Key Infrastructure (BRSKI:RFCabcd).
  • Eliot Lear (Cisco) presenting on Device Provisioning = Protocol (DPP).

We are gathering interested parties = and stakeholders, to:

  • Engage the industry to be inclusive of existing approaches, = by focusing on a manageable few resulting solutions.
  • Promote an open, standards-based = approach to scalable, autonomous device onboarding.
  • Develop implementation guidelines, = configurations, test suites and certifications that ease deployment and = usage of onboarding approaches, for device use cases and network access = technologies. 

Register = now!

= --Apple-Mail=_53B3CD12-41D2-4952-AD57-683B3B68FF47-- --Apple-Mail=_90A2C8D0-9DC0-465E-9794-6B2980BC9013 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmAzxekACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejMu+gf9H4gT/4OkUO1RUU7vmP/ZZvJB5MNSekWRUbgTRa2Fmg/C336mezeFXO4E PdvO4sWwJPWuEr4yaYh7Ir4Ym+jrfgphUJod+5jt2KFRSKOaTa8af3ArjmOs9bs5 Y7pjXncQjwjV1qmmmmz81+esa5gpmTAUNgzKce0+Ny/p8fVgAsPcr262L4fcRA7M r+Gma09JWYK67T9SNLFNxyFG2ljR5k83ADy5vtXGRc1V0LAjjkc0XAdzQj81zFGH BCB3nGMYTPlUPwfLRckRmgY7SkBlHZLw6fpR8BUb1BtxZy7uPpgCzfF+2e3w4NNf +XrDb7H5xpdX3CT6qJejIBthOXgPDg== =u+ZG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_90A2C8D0-9DC0-465E-9794-6B2980BC9013-- From nobody Tue Feb 23 03:07:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost 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ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 23 Feb 2021 16:04:48 +0000 Received: from [10.61.192.153] ([10.61.192.153]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 11NG4lkt018863 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Feb 2021 16:04:48 GMT From: Eliot Lear Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E2FA619E-61AD-4762-B694-FEB3B4B3BB7E"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 17:04:47 +0100 In-Reply-To: <08C9D759-335F-4AED-9A53-458834804998@ericsson.com> Cc: Michael Richardson , "iotops@ietf.org" To: =?utf-8?Q?G=C3=B6ran_Selander?= References: <49569FF2-938B-4584-B290-F16558F352F5@ericsson.com> <27125.1613409584@localhost> <7FFB63D7-801D-4E8B-8257-BE9BCF7BA6BF@ericsson.com> <32317.1613496636@localhost> <08C9D759-335F-4AED-9A53-458834804998@ericsson.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.192.153, [10.61.192.153] X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] Error categories in constrained IoT authentication X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 16:04:55 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E2FA619E-61AD-4762-B694-FEB3B4B3BB7E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi G=C3=B6ran I=E2=80=99m thinking that there are some errors that are ok and some = that should remain generic, given that the message is transmitted in the = clear. CoAP-style error messages seem reasonable. Eliot > On 23 Feb 2021, at 12:08, G=C3=B6ran Selander = wrote: >=20 > Thanks Michael, a question below. >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 2021-02-16, 18:30, "Michael Richardson" = wrote: >=20 > mcr> I think that there is a sweet spot where we could get = enough > mcr> information to do further investigation, while not = blasting useless > mcr> information around. >=20 > GS> Exactly this was the intent with the draft error categories = A-G in my > GS> previous mail. Are they doing a good job? >=20 > mcr> They get close, but they only describe complete failures, and = they may need > mcr> to announce intermediate progress, or even failures to even = begin. >=20 > [GS] Could you give some example of "failure to begin", and "announce = intermediate progress" which illustrates missing top level categories? >=20 > * I can see that category D (access denied, credential valid but peer = not allowed access) - is announcing intermediate progress since it = denies error of category C (credential error). >=20 > * Intermediate progress could also be incorporated in sub-categories. = For example, if we define : >=20 > A.1 Syntax error > A.2 Incorrect protocol field. >=20 > then A.2 indicates intermediate progress because to be able to = determine incorrect protocol field at least some part of syntax needs to = be correct. >=20 > Thanks > G=C3=B6ran >=20 > -- > Iotops mailing list > Iotops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iotops --Apple-Mail=_E2FA619E-61AD-4762-B694-FEB3B4B3BB7E Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmA1J58ACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejOaCAgAhf3LTn8p8g7p+eL+G3chGc43whaehHiXyfBMvHICiLyBRjomVZn/Dzek esX/DQlZhFWbq4yDMXwxixuPF4OtVayd0trgK15qYYJPDq8+0cM3wTUBrakN4s5h 4bjo10AY4BUF1RALD2Ek+wCMDBQKEGsxY17LeONE65r4iWTGZm09rMOBqTG6Ei59 DWq6aW6ctMXKRSz+jKaJpYMLkL5/lyLayJCaOdod90MA9dKkg4EOKVr169ylRj/d CzY+949TSTH15BBWPi7KwWZT3W4ZaAEbn23K/nWuaikiUvB9PRlwAZd7NSLAI186 zx34G7K67gk0rIMblSe/TdRIJgEcWA== =Vpwf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_E2FA619E-61AD-4762-B694-FEB3B4B3BB7E-- From nobody Tue Feb 23 10:41:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3EA03A0E34 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 10:41:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PswduXh5nEKD for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 10:41:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED1A13A0E30 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 10:41:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A310389E7; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:45:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id eFM69nh23LxZ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:45:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A527389DD; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:45:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26742C3F; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 13:41:46 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: =?us-ascii?Q?=3D=3Futf-8=3FB=3FR8O2cmFuIFNlbGFuZGVy=3F=3D?= , "iotops\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <08C9D759-335F-4AED-9A53-458834804998@ericsson.com> References: <49569FF2-938B-4584-B290-F16558F352F5@ericsson.com> <27125.1613409584@localhost> <7FFB63D7-801D-4E8B-8257-BE9BCF7BA6BF@ericsson.com> <32317.1613496636@localhost> <08C9D759-335F-4AED-9A53-458834804998@ericsson.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] Error categories in constrained IoT authentication X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2021 18:41:52 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable G=C3=B6ran Selander wrote: mcr> I think that there is a sweet spot where we could get enough mcr> information to do further investigation, while not blasting useless mcr> information around. GS> Exactly this was the intent with the draft error categories A-G in = my GS> previous mail. Are they doing a good job? mcr> They get close, but they only describe complete failures, and they mcr> may need to announce intermediate progress, or even failures to ev= en mcr> begin. GS> Could you give some example of "failure to begin", and "announce GS> intermediate progress" which illustrates missing top level GS> categories? failure to begin: In a BRSKI situation: device has not begun onboarding because it never foun= d a join proxy. In some other onboarding situation, it could be that device is waiting to s= ee some other broadcast. Or perhaps it needs an IPv4 address, or an answer to= a DNS request. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmA1TGkACgkQgItw+93Q 3WV6ywgAu3hRK32ZSOOtlkL61r26m2kM7mka3xVs7EJlRZBFB7O9OEyG7av52xVr 12NS/tP+ZZ66gMHj57gQYOTMImOi+35vgq1SIVp4gzlrcIcYirQ9Y84eJko1y3IR 3gt2RAeR4HA3ChaD3JsKt0xoyL2rLlnM9p84zQHOXP7SNsAdxFg37tUMJbsTF9eV s2sMzyPrU9lPvA2TD023sciiu7t+nJ9Bw4npkBNknv23Vdwx61swhBEQOJByC14w KW7itgJ4WgcTXo0KGK8YcAM/GJ/AalE0J1ohXasZOB0zzcVq/MD4lwBc1dmcAroQ CKRhHmQHANBgL+j9aHm4FA6gI4PzFA== =l/6I -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Feb 23 16:35:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B84543A1270 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 16:35:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.868 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.868 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f6t9D-35BKY6 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 16:35:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1286B3A128C for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2021 16:35:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5467F54804D; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 01:35:00 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 4C896440163; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 01:35:00 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 01:35:00 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: G?ran Selander Cc: "iotops@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20210224003500.GM35983@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <49569FF2-938B-4584-B290-F16558F352F5@ericsson.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <49569FF2-938B-4584-B290-F16558F352F5@ericsson.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] Error categories in constrained IoT authentication X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 00:35:43 -0000 Some thoughts: a) i haven't seen anything in the ask that i would consider IoT specific, but then again, i am not sure what IoT is. As in: unless someone suggests a better WG this is IMHO a great topic to discuss if not work on. b) I think it would be worthwhile to write up generic guidance to design diagnostics in the face of security. I hrve seen this done wrong, although my last vivid memories are from non-iot use cases (systems that tried hard to do everything wrong that could be done wrong in username/password authentication). c) best diagnostic requires IMHO operational experience. What does help are ways to create more agile mechanisms than writing a spec. For example creating a registry to which things can be added applying and extending existing RFCs. (a bit different form of a registry than the typical IANA ones). That might help for diagnostics to evolve more agile. d) Some class of diagnostics that really helps the good guys may help the bad guys, but they still need brute force. Slowing down things can be the tool to permit the good diagnostics while still hurting the bad guys. e) For IoT specific i would certainly appreciate a complete formal distinction of error codes. Sending some generic "0x999 (random error) and detailling what actually happens in text field afterwards works for "Simple Classical Human Protocol", but not (IMHO) for IoT. f) One maybe useful criteria to coalesce diagnostics into as few as possible different ones is to ask: whats the difference in actionable next steps. If there is no difference then likely those different diagnostics could be one. g) In one common case a device might give an error 0x7411 Only my admin can help, ticket #345687 As in: the other side observing this error really can only refer to the (unique) ticket id and tell that to he admin of the reporting device. For various reasons Many of which likely are embarassing to the admin of the device ;-) Aka local ticketing of error events is another common scheme for diagnostics. Cheers Toerless On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 04:53:44PM +0000, G?ran Selander wrote: > Hello IOTOPS, > > There is a discussion in the LAKE WG regarding the potential need to standardize error messages appearing in a security handshake protocol targeting IoT devices. Is this something IOTOPS could contribute to and/or review? > > > Assuming this might be the case, here is a background and some draft error categories for discussion. > > Background: > --- > LAKE is specifying a lightweight authenticated Diffie-Hellman exchange called EDHOC [1] similar to the TLS 1.3 handshake but targeting constrained IoT. The protocol consists of 3 messages and an error message which may be sent in response to any non-error message. The error message essentially consists of a diagnostic message field containing a text string targeting the peer administrator. > > All errors are fatal and cause the protocol to discontinue. The intent with the error message is to provide a hint about the error to the peer application, to enable logging of errors and appropriate management operations. (Note that since the protocol failed to establish security the error message is unprotected and needs to be treated accordingly.) > > The question is what error messages need to be standardized, if any. > > Detailed information can be provided by using the diagnostic text string. But standardizing detailed error information adds complexity to the specification and implementation, which would contradict one of the design objectives. But perhaps we can we identify a small set of error categories (codes) that require to be singled out, for example because how they impact operations. Such categories could potentially be complemented with text providing additional details. > > Please find below a first sketch of error categories (inspired by error alerts from TLS 1.3 [2]). > > Two questions (going in opposite directions): > > 1. Do we need to make more distinctions/are there missing error categories? > 2. Are these distinctions necessary, or can we remove/group together some of them? > > > Draft error categories: > --- > A. message field error (syntax error or incorrect protocol field) > > B. integrity error (unable to correctly verify a signature or a MAC) > > C. credential error (error related to the attempt to use a certificate/raw public key as a basis for autentication, e.g., certificate expired, revoked, unsupported, corrupt, unknown CA etc.) > > D. access denied (credential valid but peer not allowed access) > > E. internal error (error not related to the protocol or the peer) > > F. auxiliary data error (unsupported or missing extension) > > G. cipher suite not supported (this particular error has already been specified with a special message field, see Section 6) > > > Any comments are welcome. > > Thanks > Göran > > [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lake-edhoc > [2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8446#section-6.2 > > > > -- > Iotops mailing list > Iotops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iotops From nobody Wed Feb 24 12:48:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE5A63A1BDC for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 12:48:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2SBC--2c3GPN for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 12:48:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F257B3A1BD6 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 12:48:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1532; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1614199683; x=1615409283; h=from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:to; bh=KFqs2gChsoK0X8jvYCiJzZG21cAc5HiQDyqmPh/yWaA=; b=i+lK36SVhb+y99ZPBYPoAqKow2Vmbph0Ehd22VDDMG68jz6vefkYQ41b nDUr/ySMQhAXWD5S7jDFV/Syc9vCKe0wRdVLuFrmlV37CU5gP9GA4CdqT oonl0KN2MfbLhnP3KtC65dwR6zxdT/ssdEdIUvv/qPs+UBctKNeg68aQq 4=; X-Files: signature.asc : 488 X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BZAABIujZglxbLJq1iHQEBAQEJARIBBQUBgX4FAQsBg?= =?us-ascii?q?3YBJxKEcokEpSoEBwEBAQoDAQE0BAEBhkcmNwYOAgMBAQEDAgMBAQEBBQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QIBBgQUAQEBAQEBAQGGQ4ZugTMCg2IBgwagfI4cdoEyij4QgTgBgVKMMYIDg?= =?us-ascii?q?REnHIJXhUmCSTSCKwSDBiiDOJxwnE+DBgSDK4E8ly8DH4MioCiybINzAgQGB?= =?us-ascii?q?QIWgWoigVkzGggbFWUBgj89EhkNjjiOMEADZwIGAQkBAQMJjBMBAQ?= X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.81,203,1610409600"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="33705727" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 24 Feb 2021 20:47:58 +0000 Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp5137.cisco.com (ams3-vpn-dhcp5137.cisco.com [10.61.84.16]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 11OKlwTP020794 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 20:47:58 GMT From: Eliot Lear Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EB273466-064A-4E14-A7F8-9DF1328B959C"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 21:47:57 +0100 To: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.61.84.16, ams3-vpn-dhcp5137.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Iotops] New draft draft-lear-iotops-onboard-intr-00.txt X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2021 20:48:26 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_EB273466-064A-4E14-A7F8-9DF1328B959C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi everyone, I=E2=80=99ve written a bit of a discussion about some of the blockers = for IoT onboarding, particular around real zero touch. Two different = onboarding technologies =E2=80=93 BRSKI and DPP =E2=80=93 have two = different gaps that need to be filled to get to zero touch. BRSKI has = one key gap- how the registrar is known by the MASA to be associated = with a particular customer. DPP has one gap: how to get that key into = the configurator. If we view the configurator as a registrar. These = problems can reduce to the same one. Eliot --Apple-Mail=_EB273466-064A-4E14-A7F8-9DF1328B959C Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEmNC9kEYdsJKnsmEdh7ZrRtnSejMFAmA2u30ACgkQh7ZrRtnS ejOzZggA1aLudHA2UHDxiFSrxol9JRU8z4MSPwYquxvnl1iIiamCr7+s9WSxXk4b 2VdVD4XDtdY5isGG7JPxPaEWlXnoJgzZ9JXCVIqtvIgAAlXnfJof1qqn2NPcma92 MOHIzNSbqJHpCsD6RSFyaEXy8h94BilzxhSDqlJH0tcxsaBzhjceoFhQVcbKz4SD Q+8YGZ/iKq579sBdORrGRwLrLdrU/BiEy08raaNQLmrSJ29R9Jc93zkzbiGG80SH X1Hzrmw9Cu85CqD5S+HwwDSuNPN9uXs4g6UC6D0fiWgxNLVddb9ss+vAYpH7wTr3 0ZVw9pk55P0KfRaBcHMYpdAn9TTKTg== =fOVf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_EB273466-064A-4E14-A7F8-9DF1328B959C-- From nobody Thu Feb 25 07:36:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF5F93A1B3A for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 07:36:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lvm5a9hqn0U0 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 07:36:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C23393A1B37 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 07:36:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51A1A389FF; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 10:40:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 15EG1YAH5tH3; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 10:40:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C8B9389A5; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 10:40:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C41A223; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 10:36:08 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Eliot Lear , iotops@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] New draft draft-lear-iotops-onboard-intr-00.txt X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 15:36:15 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eliot Lear wrote: > I=E2=80=99ve written a bit of a discussion about some of the blockers= for IoT > onboarding, particular around real zero touch. Two different > onboarding technologies =E2=80=93 BRSKI and DPP =E2=80=93 have two di= fferent gaps that > need to be filled to get to zero touch. BRSKI has one key gap- how t= he > registrar is known by the MASA to be associated with a particular > customer. DPP has one gap: how to get that key into the configurator. > If we view the configurator as a registrar. These problems can reduce > to the same one. Thank you for the interesting document. Some general comments first: I was surprised that you aren't making a key characteristic of DPP being th= at the public key is delivered by QRcode. The protocol is not exactly zero-touch as you say, but it's based upon physical possession. It's zero-touch to me in the sense that nobody needs to do anything specific to the device, like plugging in a console cable, or typing some commands. The IETF is in the process of (RFC-EDITOR Q) of standardizing draft-ietf-6tisch-minimal-security, whereby per-device PSKs are distributed "somehow" to the operator. Yes, as envisioned, these are PSKs, not key pairs, but I suspect we could make the same flow (with the same number of round trips) work if a key pair instead of a PSK was involved. In section 3 you ought to mention draft-richardson-anima-voucher-delegation. You write: } There are several ways to think about this problem: } } (1)o seller transmits something to the buyer registrar as part of a } transaction. } } (2)o seller provides buyer an artifact as part of a sale. I couldn't quite understand the distinction between these. I think that you meant in (1) that the something (an artifact), is transfer= ed electronically, while in (2), it is included physically with the item. } o original manufacturer records the sale. } } o original manufacturer simply notes the transfer. What your document hints at, but never actually says, is that there is a continuum of desired onboarding and ownership policies. Section 1.2, when = it mentions: o Nothing. It can just sign the voucher request, logging the request. o Validation that a particular device belongs in a particular deployment. misses that these are actually two poles of a spectrum. At one end are things where possession is 100% indication of control. For instance, gym equipment comes to mind [Google "Gym Enabled Machines", or GEM]. It is worth discussing if the process of taking control of an exerci= se bicycle is really onboarding. But, I think that there are still a wide variety of simple things where having it in your hands is sufficient proof. Moving away from that end, there are more durable goods: fridges, TVs, stoves, furnaces, possibly even laptops (not the desktop OS itself, but the BMC). These things are bought, resold, lent, rented, leased without filing any papers with a regulatory agency. Today, they outlive their manufacturers (or the division that made them), although this trend has been declining. Medical equipment has an interesting niche: it is strongly owned, and strongly regulated, and yet, some aspect of the machine needs to available = to any medical staff that is in physical possession of the device. When you need that infusion pump, you need it. Cars also have a unique niche: while they are bought and sold, they are also aggressively stolen. Possession should *not* be a means to prove onwership. And, pretty much every country already has a regulator (the "DMV") to which transfers of ownership are filed. Continuing out to the other pole are items, surveillance cameras for instance, which despite being essentially in the hands of adversaries, need to remain owned by the original deployment. } 5. This is really only about network onboarding ... } For private shared keys, there currently is no great answer to this } question. so, to my mind, if the private shared keys are not being leveraged to create a more resilient relationship, then the investment in the PSK has been squa= ndered! =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmA3w+cACgkQgItw+93Q 3WW1wAf/Tuh+mGZe3j7fvF8mj3kpYr3AGj5gav1j7N7gwgTCYZWz3yZvgdw/Mpyf pTNqZ7h/bryPDONg9UeyNtjoQ6jgfnmOGSzQBZLB1QKwrcwQ2zs1udrfZD62qHaR OIT2qO2wxct9SvDlwndie8LW9PHBhpRkaRzslTW7RktEuj7Yrjj3ee8YXc7prBui Vtz/H0SJQdnKnd/SUVidk5YpSb0tIpzjIlckhMkv54AJmvvgSxGAWQzqPboRfGdv Wd374NRvpCHp3t/OyGgdMOUv4/RJLMrIRHqJGbo2z/zZDgUCkhMagLc3OOAKLMuX ZhLT10zWfyRFIF7vxl/3EVzUn5D12Q== =x55p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Feb 25 07:51:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22F5E3A1B7E for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 07:51:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hTv7BNViTVZb for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 07:51:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 70A363A1B79 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 07:51:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B231D38A54 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 10:55:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id tOWIx0UftsWQ for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 10:55:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F52B38A52 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 10:55:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25B41223 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 10:51:05 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: iotops@ietf.org X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Iotops] provisioning certificates for home routers X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 15:51:09 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In draft-richardson-homerouter-provisioning-00, titled: Provisioning Initial Device Identifiers into Home Routers I have described the problem of providing HTTPS certificates to home routers for their administrative interface. This mechanism is being used today and has running code. It could be used for devices other than home routers, and in particular cou= ld be combined with the techniques that Ted Lemon describes in draft-lemon-stub-networks and draft-lemon-stub-networks-ps (note these documents got munged together, and the secretariat is sortin= g them) My solution has some significant limitations, which I would like to discuss. The major one has to do with the 90-day expiry for LetsEncrypt certificates. This is ameliorated slightly with 13-month certificates, which is the effective CABFORUM limit now. The question is how long can we expect the device to remain in the box in a warehouse? If the device will have Internet after being plugged in the fir= st time, then an update could be possible using the expired certificate as a step to get a renewed one. For FTTH, CableModems, it is quite possible for the device to figure out where the Internet is. For installations involving VDSL, PPPoE then some provisioning is often needed: still there is a trend for ISPs to provision a generic login, and once that is used, to then use TR-069 to download a per-customer login. If this is to believed, then an update is entirely possible. I have not filled in section 4 Protocol Details. I'm actually not sure what else to say. Maybe I override section 3. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmA3x2gACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVY7gf/afMb4AEu/wC4TE8n78ON+hrF1xwYPRRRqI55y6GFT0vxbtxB8oZILiYb dSuXwrGR9sIJUASoegQhV6YKR3TErVk9eCdJf7NRkPUlQfRyb7s/4DWn9x1WQCrS XqnEQJhivNYjGb89Vp9Q+uuyC5/u42t2uUVFNMVZwfDAbskU5YeBz2lVH8HLkvPO tZMOyklZfEyOtHR6qWVCUJJ0l+hMFqts+UhotY9e6gfLysAPzFvIZkwt+oCPiPce XvA+Od04j6/j/RbsxIaef4i4coi2dth4Q0t6QlfLTBxf0ctUWq0ZgZB6PZQ4NTv/ 2jFJ+/Fa3GM5vRnFra6Nyo2r6XKBDg== =p/1y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Feb 25 07:52:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 759B43A1B81 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2021 07:52:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: be969cd3-25f2-4f90-a543-08d8d9a54dd8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 25 Feb 2021 15:52:07.1000 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 8ZN3E4sBfW6YMvquwNbZKJ46xNsJhWoKOvz6TIb/D3u/T+TX47SYJ4HU0Uu3NCEM4UsZaSUWuSxJ5ZreWL8+K3ZlTm9fByHI6sXI/os5MHQ= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR07MB3065 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] Error categories in constrained IoT authentication X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 15:52:13 -0000 SGkgVG9lcmxlc3MsDQoNClRoYW5rcyBmb3IgZGV0YWlsZWQgaW5wdXQsIHZlcnkgaGVscGZ1bCEg 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Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id Or5Yubne7beV; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:28:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 957F9389B5; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:28:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACDAC52; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:24:37 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: iotops@ietf.org, homenet@ietf.org cc: 6man@ietf.org Reply-To: iotops@ietf.org, homenet@ietf.org X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Iotops] Ted's stub network document: draft-lemon-stub-networks{, -ps} X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 16:24:45 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ted posted draft-lemon-stub-networks-ps awhile ago, and I have attempted to collaborate with him on it. There was a goof in the XML, so when he posted =2D01 of the document, it was named draft-lemon-stub-networks, and overwrote his previously uploaded solution document. I think that this is a key architectural document on connecting IoT network= s, although there is some resistance to putting such a specific use case into the title. The Problem Statement is at: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-lemon-stub-networks-01.html The solution document is at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lemon-stub-networks/00/?include_t= ext=3D1 Ted shared a (google) document with me to edit, but I'm not sure if he wants that as the canonical place to contribute. Here are some of my comments/questions about this document: 1) Perhaps "Stub Router" should be in the terminology. The terms: AIL, NAIL, NAL and OSNR are introduced but aren't really used. They aren't really that pneumonic. If anything, I'd like a cool TLA for "Stub Router" 2) There is advise about monitoring the RAs from the infrastructure router (which is probably the home CPE router), and soliciting them regularly. In effect, the Stub Router can't depend that the CPE router will remain alive for it's lifetime. That is, the RA lifetimes tell the client how long it may use the resource, but not how to determine if the router is alive. Of course, power can disappear at any time. Ted: it seems that maybe neigh-cache entries already have all the timers and rechecks needed, and maybe the Stub Router can just watch for the NCE going Stale? 3) _Adjacent infrastructure link (AIL)_ that's the home LAN, right? Maybe it would clearer if it was just called that? 4) I'd like to add a state machine diagram to 3.1.1/3.1.2. 5) _IP addressability not present on adjacent infrastructure link_ (AIL) When the Stub router finds no IPv6 on the "LAN" link, then it advertises one. I think that this prefix should be advertised as being _off-link_. To clarify for others: the stub router will have a ULA, and it might advertise ULA:0002::/64 on the AIL ("LAN"), and will number it's stub network with ULA:0001::/64. It will do this with a PIO that does not include a default route. On the AIL, where there is also an IPv6 prefix (but not DHCPv6-PD), then it just seems like not putting a second ULA on top of the LAN for the purpose of communicating within the LAN seems better. While the off-link prefix can be used for e2e communications on the LAN, I think that the on-link prefix will be preferred. Perhaps this messes with DNS-SD discovery. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmA5IMUACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXpuwf/ZsTFW9LtJQa2XMEu0IXKu5pcGbdQWtsHALAYat5ibh4ai1Eaytxx4ad9 agOIdzesZY+bakjTGda+sLyTdBC2v4Cbo82pLnYm23VMShLyh2Rh1hcQaJGIw267 Y+aN3ds6L9w+e1U4H6zObRGqBhXsuR8Snd/SDSMTGyQX8dWUkpL7fi9oS20FfKQG DYl9bhSlJUAI+utQLYmMVF5ZqFtlezCOYK6sEKKxloHot3L94CxeTsr2Y50R5gFo r2Ecf1TBeuz6VM/1kwscDm5c2aiH7z0sp3d/WvSNI5qF9wb3dvegY3sagpecQHa+ FkkW9Oi+uDOK7jS3GOere0SlHvzVrQ== =xcat -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Feb 26 09:01:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55DF23A1268 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 09:01:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xN49_06GG_1D for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 09:01:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x72c.google.com (mail-qk1-x72c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 274F53A126C for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 09:01:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x72c.google.com with SMTP id q85so9714008qke.8 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 09:01:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=QYFwRcC9KK3KdxZ1aH0a7lxKM+OAGpXJYpqG46Fip2E=; b=xYtyjyb5zWEmf0GToyFj3rYg0HD3dGOhCTe/u3i4NTGibMq6aZBbVoEervXBp4+Vsr cqnf3wdtbImGyZlt1GNwEOlR92wKeiqZQVRMOVlohRlUfN9oY+spba4f9Iq2IBg3l+hF 4r5MVbpIm5nmEo4Wdw3C6WFCZeEhC1oGgfaB3szi0lfGXnQaM80DHLuHgj0ChUlAIZec GCmYdhJ7gUBvtoDGeSkobASuEP4KLemfcIKMNLisSigo0gpvgfnD8OgwzRQRfMK0oQ6k 903x+vusMnWWeDjLvVEIvrAMwFkgvWWQsZDolxjwLfhezk3wewzFJotPbX0yYEF6+yZr tCyg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=QYFwRcC9KK3KdxZ1aH0a7lxKM+OAGpXJYpqG46Fip2E=; b=mEsFhmwGd7CuiBVDoRh3M9wigbJCpY3Vf0sAqn1tQh0YNnjoSNs7Y0RZm5NZ8W0c7o VBH8oPURTUUjIYxniiQX2Quzu39W6nFKqIhW35E7TIiIbAlE8JOABJ0bw5qvI2u1RD15 Z70cyesA4fE62sLN+0cc9dgca2Bc35llERNjIn704IOe5Dd9iiMClTh0p7eFuK80dY9t 1B5YhV96R698PbPCFt5nfuNqdDqML/gs+a05cOdDmZGf4icjTsImeVlozN/e/2I2R0p4 yJE0XLFijQbeq3o/wcig0CcL5KmCy+vKAGfZUZ7Uw1C/fbXSF45XRxtiS36RPjFQpX38 wIbw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531xVv+x6CbbfBb/WizsSPs0uA+rN9bsHvyNC7zQgonFmAMpKAbm TNzbep91LKhb23ZHon5ysnvNR0i2q6zggA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw/TywI1X7uExz+lUw2Af8bRMBEeyjGbvd2IhwEACfcCGFBmdCiY8+J609Y3bf+mXweAY/XNw== X-Received: by 2002:a37:a10e:: with SMTP id k14mr3550020qke.70.1614358893627; Fri, 26 Feb 2021 09:01:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (c-24-91-177-160.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [24.91.177.160]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n77sm5699168qkn.128.2021.02.26.09.01.32 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 26 Feb 2021 09:01:32 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.80.0.2.33\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <13781.1614356677@localhost> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 12:01:32 -0500 Cc: 6man@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <389E2CE9-A3A7-48D1-82D3-0ADA11981765@fugue.com> References: <13781.1614356677@localhost> To: iotops@ietf.org, Ray Bellis , Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.80.0.2.33) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] Ted's stub network document: draft-lemon-stub-networks{, -ps} X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 17:01:43 -0000 On Feb 26, 2021, at 11:24 AM, Michael Richardson = wrote: Thanks for the comments, Michael! > I think that this is a key architectural document on connecting IoT = networks, > although there is some resistance to putting such a specific use case = into > the title. The reason for this is that I think it=E2=80=99s a perfectly reasonable = thing to do when you just want to connect a router to a pre-existing = network so that you can use services on that network. So I really = don=E2=80=99t want to constrain the use case to IoT. That is certainly = the primary driving use case, though. > 1) Perhaps "Stub Router" should be in the terminology. > The terms: AIL, NAIL, NAL and OSNR are introduced but aren't really = used. > They aren't really that pneumonic. > If anything, I'd like a cool TLA for "Stub Router" SNR? But that confuses OSNR. The reason for all those TLAs is that = =E2=80=9CAdjacent infrastructure link=E2=80=9D is a lot to type, and so = is off-stub-network-routable prefix. :] > 2) There is advise about monitoring the RAs from the infrastructure = router > (which is probably the home CPE router), and soliciting them = regularly. > In effect, the Stub Router can't depend that the CPE router will = remain > alive for it's lifetime. > That is, the RA lifetimes tell the client how long it may use the > resource, but not how to determine if the router is alive. Of = course, > power can disappear at any time. > Ted: it seems that maybe neigh-cache entries already have all the = timers > and rechecks needed, and maybe the Stub Router can just watch for > the NCE going Stale? That would work, but depends on the stub router implementation being = able to get a notification that this has happened, which means it=E2=80=99= s running in the kernel. I don=E2=80=99t think that=E2=80=99s a likely = scenario. Also, NCEs have lifetimes, so they will also outlive on-link = routers. > 3) _Adjacent infrastructure link (AIL)_ that's the home LAN, right? > Maybe it would clearer if it was just called that? The problem is that =E2=80=9Chome lan=E2=80=9D presupposes a very = limited use model, and this is not intended to address just that use = model. Stub network routers are expected to be useful in building = infrastructure deployments as well. > 4) I'd like to add a state machine diagram to 3.1.1/3.1.2. I think that=E2=80=99s a good idea, although I am not really a fan of = state machine *diagrams* =E2=80=94 I=E2=80=99d maybe rather just = describe the state machine. Diagrams are easy to misread. There are = actually several state machines, and each I think is fairly simple, so = writing out a list of states, events and state transitions may be = practicable. > 5) _IP addressability not present on adjacent infrastructure link_ = (AIL) > When the Stub router finds no IPv6 on the "LAN" link, then it = advertises > one. I think that this prefix should be advertised as being = _off-link_. If it=E2=80=99s advertised as off-link, will hosts use it on-link as a = source address for communications? That=E2=80=99s the point of = advertising this prefix. We advertise a route to the stub network=E2=80=99= s prefix, but we need a prefix on the adjacent infrastructure link in = order for IPv6 communication to happen. > To clarify for others: the stub router will have a ULA, and it might > advertise ULA:0002::/64 on the AIL ("LAN"), and will number it's = stub > network with ULA:0001::/64. It will do this with a PIO that does = not > include a default route. To be clear, it will advertise an RA that has a router lifetime of zero, = which indicates =E2=80=9Cnot a default router.=E2=80=9D The on-link = prefixes on the stub network and the infrastructure network are = advertised using PIOs. Reachability from the stub network to the = infrastructure network and vice versa are advertised using Route = Information Options (RIOs). > On the AIL, where there is also an IPv6 prefix (but not DHCPv6-PD), > then it just seems like not putting a second ULA on top of the LAN > for the purpose of communicating within the LAN seems better. > While the off-link prefix can be used for e2e communications on the > LAN, I think that the on-link prefix will be preferred. If there=E2=80=99s already an on-link prefix on the AIL, the stub router = doesn=E2=80=99t advertise an additional prefix=E2=80=94there=E2=80=99d = be no point to this. This adds some complexity to the stub router = implementation, but I think makes its presence on the network a bit less = heavy. Particularly if you have multiple stub routers (e.g., a HomePod = Mini stereo pair in several rooms in the house). > Perhaps this messes with DNS-SD discovery. That=E2=80=99s not the issue, although we do have to be careful not to = propagate addresses that won=E2=80=99t be reachable from off-link. 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Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:07:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jonathan Hui Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:07:08 -0800 Message-ID: To: homenet@ietf.org, iotops@ietf.org, 6man@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003080b505bc41fa2c" Archived-At: Subject: [Iotops] Review of draft-lemon-stub-networks-00 X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2021 19:07:23 -0000 --0000000000003080b505bc41fa2c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I have reviewed this document. I believe this document addresses a key problem in connecting constrained networks to more traditional networks. The Thread Group and Project CHIP (both IPv6 based) require this guidance to be successful. At the same time, I agree this document has broader applicability than constrained stub networks. Thanks, Ted! Some comments/questions below: Section 3.1 - "In this case, the stub router SHOULD NOT provide addressability on the adjacent infrastructure link." - I wonder if there are scenarios where the existing addressing is not stable (e.g. when provided by an external entity). Constrained devices would rather avoid having to determine that an existing IPv6 address is unreachable and discover the new IPv6 address. Having the stub router guarantee stable IPv6 addressing can reduce overhead on stub network devices. For example, I'm wondering if it's useful for the stub router to provide a ULA prefix if only a GUA prefix is being advertised and no ULA prefix exists. Section 3.1.1 - "router discovery" - Should we capitalize and explicitly reference RFC 4861? - "a usable prefixes" -> "a usable prefix" Section 3.1.2 - "IP addressability becomes present on adjacent infrastructure link" - was more text intended here? Section 3.1.3 - This section describes how to avoid creating duplicate on-link prefixes. Should we also discuss how to avoid deprecating multiple on-link prefixes simultaneously in the case that duplicates do occur? In particular, how do we ensure convergence on one prefix? Section 3.3 - "Stub routers MUST advertise reachability to stub network OSNR prefixes on any AIL to which they are connected." Should we consider limiting which stub routers advertise reachability if there are a large number of stub routers? - "reachability to all such links" should be "reachability to all such prefixes"? Section 3.4 - "If the stub router is not advertising itself as a default on the stub network, it MUST advertise reachability to any prefixes that are being advertised as on-link on AILs to which it is attached." I think we should consider reachability to other stub networks in addition to the AIL. In this case, the stub router must also advertise reachability to prefixes advertised in RIOs. Also, similar to Section 3.3, should we consider limiting which stub routers advertise reachability if there are a large number of stub routers? - "Consequently, stub routers SHOULD be configurable to not advertise themselves as default routers on the stub network." In some cases, I think it may be possible for a stub router to automatically determine that there is another stub router attached to the same stub network but not the same AIL. Section 3.5 - "be able to discovery devices" -> "be able to discover devices" - add references to SRP, Advertising Proxy, etc. Section 3.6 - add reference to Discovery Proxy. Section 4.1 - "traffix" -> "traffic" Section 4.2 - "WFfi" -> "WiFi" Section 5 - Should we recommend some way to deterministically converge on one prefix when deprecating? Section 6 - "effected" -> "affected" Section 6.2 - "off-mesh" -> "Off-Stub-Network" Section 6.3 - How does the infrastructure advertise availability of the SRP service? If out of scope, maybe state that? -- Jonathan Hui --0000000000003080b505bc41fa2c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have reviewed this document.

I believe this document addresses a key problem in connecting constraine= d networks to more traditional networks. The Thread Group and Project CHIP = (both IPv6 based) require this guidance to be successful. At the same time,= I agree this document has broader applicability than constrained stub netw= orks. Thanks, Ted!

Some comm= ents/questions below:

Section=C2=A03.1
-= "In this case, the stub router SHOULD NOT provide addressability on t= he adjacent infrastructure link." - I wonder if there are scenarios wh= ere the existing addressing is not stable (e.g. when provided by an externa= l entity). Constrained devices would=C2=A0rather avoid having to determine = that an existing=C2=A0IPv6 address is unreachable=C2=A0and discover the new= IPv6 address. Having the stub router guarantee stable IPv6 addressing can = reduce overhead on stub network devices. For example, I'm wondering if = it's useful for the stub router to provide a ULA prefix if only a GUA p= refix is being advertised and no ULA prefix exists.

Section 3.1.1
- "router discovery" - Should we capita= lize=C2=A0and explicitly reference RFC 4861?
- "a usable pre= fixes" -> "a usable prefix"

Sect= ion 3.1.2=C2=A0
- "IP addressability becomes present on adja= cent infrastructure link" - was more text intended here?
Section 3.1.3
- This section describes how to avoid c= reating duplicate on-link prefixes. Should we also discuss how to avoid dep= recating multiple on-link prefixes simultaneously in the case that duplicat= es do occur? In particular, how do we ensure convergence on one prefix?
=

Section 3.3
- "Stub routers MUST a= dvertise reachability to stub network OSNR prefixes on any AIL to which the= y are connected." Should we consider limiting which stub routers adver= tise reachability if there are a large number of stub routers?
- "reachability to all such links" should be "r= eachability to all such prefixes"?

Section 3.= 4
- "If the stub router is not advertising itself as a defau= lt on the stub network, it MUST advertise reachability to any prefixes that= are being advertised as on-link on AILs to which it is attached." I t= hink we should consider reachability to other stub networks in addition to = the AIL. In this case, the stub router must also advertise reachability to = prefixes advertised in RIOs.

Also, similar to Sect= ion 3.3, should we consider limiting which stub routers advertise reachabil= ity if there are a large number of stub routers?

-= "Consequently, stub routers SHOULD be configurable to not advertise t= hemselves as default routers on the stub network." In some cases, I th= ink it may be possible for a stub router to automatically determine that th= ere is another stub router attached to the same stub network but not the sa= me AIL.

Section 3.5
- "be able to di= scovery devices" -> "be able to discover devices"
- add references to SRP, Advertising Proxy, etc.

Section 3.6
- add reference to Discovery Proxy.

<= /div>
Section 4.1
- "traffix" -> "traffic&q= uot;

Section 4.2
- "WFfi" ->= ; "WiFi"

Section 5
- Should we= recommend some way to deterministically converge on one prefix when deprec= ating?

Section 6
- "effected" = -> "affected"

Section 6.2
-= "off-mesh" -> "Off-Stub-Network"

Section 6.3
- How does the infrastructure advertise availa= bility=C2=A0of the SRP service? If out of scope, maybe state that?

--
Jonathan Hui

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I=E2=80=99ve applied your changes to = the document where appropriate (will publish an update when posting = re-opens). I=E2=80=99ve also called out some discussion points where I = don=E2=80=99t yet know what to add to the text. > On Feb 26, 2021, at 2:07 PM, Jonathan Hui = wrote: > Section 3.1 > - "In this case, the stub router SHOULD NOT provide addressability on = the adjacent infrastructure link." - I wonder if there are scenarios = where the existing addressing is not stable (e.g. when provided by an = external entity). Constrained devices would rather avoid having to = determine that an existing IPv6 address is unreachable and discover the = new IPv6 address. Having the stub router guarantee stable IPv6 = addressing can reduce overhead on stub network devices. For example, I'm = wondering if it's useful for the stub router to provide a ULA prefix if = only a GUA prefix is being advertised and no ULA prefix exists. This is an interesting point. I would expect the home router to be = providing a ULA in this case, for just this reason. You are also = assuming that the stub network device is relying on address stability, = which perhaps it shouldn=E2=80=99t be. Just because I got address A = during service discovery doesn=E2=80=99t mean that address A is still = valid a half hour later. If address A suddenly stops working, that=E2=80=99= s probably a signal to refresh the DNS Lookup that returned address A to = see if it=E2=80=99s now returning address B. Obviously if this is a = constrained device we=E2=80=99d prefer it do as little work as possible, = but I think it needs to be able to do this or it=E2=80=99s not a = functioning device. So if we make this scenario less likely, is that = actually a good outcome? In principle, I think events of this sort can be expected to be = infrequent, and so I=E2=80=99m not convinced that hardening the network = is a good approach=E2=80=94hardening the node may produce a more = resilient service. > Section 3.1.1 > - "router discovery" - Should we capitalize and explicitly reference = RFC 4861? > - "a usable prefixes" -> "a usable prefix" Yes, there are a lot of places in the document where [citation needed] = applies. I=E2=80=99ve fixed this one. > Section 3.1.2=20 > - "IP addressability becomes present on adjacent infrastructure link" = - was more text intended here? I=E2=80=99ve deleted this fragment=E2=80=94I think it was the beginning = thought for the next paragraph, and then got forgotten. > Section 3.1.3 > - This section describes how to avoid creating duplicate on-link = prefixes. Should we also discuss how to avoid deprecating multiple = on-link prefixes simultaneously in the case that duplicates do occur? In = particular, how do we ensure convergence on one prefix? This is a good point. I=E2=80=99d worried about this but concluded that = it was unlikely and also not deadly, but there=E2=80=99s no harm in = accounting for it. I=E2=80=99ve made two changes to the document to address this. First, I = emphasized in the existing text that a prefix only triggers deprecation = if it has a non-zero preferred lifetime. Secondly, I=E2=80=99ve added = the following text: It is also possible that all routers on the link that are = capable of advertising prefixes might be following the same protocol of deprecating their own prefix when a valid prefix = shows up. To prevent a situation where all routers deprecate their prefix and wait until there are no valid = prefixes being advertised before advertising a prefix, each stub router must detect the situation where, having = deprecated its own prefix, all of the other prefixes being advertised on the link have also been deprecated. =20 When this situation occurs, each router on the link MUST = compare the valid lifetimes of all the prefixes that have been seen. If the router's own prefix expires last, then that = router should immediately resume publishing its prefix as a preferred prefix. If a router observes this situation and its prefix is not = the one that expires last, it MUST set a timer for UNDEPRECATE_WAIT seconds, while continuing to observe prefix = advertisements on the link. If, when the timer expires, the prefix that expires last has not been re-published as a = preferred prefix, then that prefix is marked as 'really deprecated', and no longer considered a candidate for = de-deprecation. Using the remaining list of prefixes, the router should then = apply the same algorithm. It should continue to apply this algorithm until either its prefix becomes the one to = re-publish as preferred, or some other router has re-published its prefix as preferred. >=20 > Section 3.3 > - "Stub routers MUST advertise reachability to stub network OSNR = prefixes on any AIL to which they are connected." Should we consider = limiting which stub routers advertise reachability if there are a large = number of stub routers? We could. I don=E2=80=99t know what the number should be, though. > - "reachability to all such links" should be "reachability to all such = prefixes=E2=80=9D? Fixed, thanks! > Section 3.4 > - "If the stub router is not advertising itself as a default on the = stub network, it MUST advertise reachability to any prefixes that are = being advertised as on-link on AILs to which it is attached." I think we = should consider reachability to other stub networks in addition to the = AIL. In this case, the stub router must also advertise reachability to = prefixes advertised in RIOs. Okay. That=E2=80=99s starting to go in the direction of a routing = protocol, though. It might be better to just do that, if that=E2=80=99s = what we need. The Babel working group has a pretty nice self-configuring = routing protocol for just this sort of situation. > Also, similar to Section 3.3, should we consider limiting which stub = routers advertise reachability if there are a large number of stub = routers? Yes, this would be particularly important on a constrained network. I = will confess that at present we are not doing this. Can you suggest = text? :) > - "Consequently, stub routers SHOULD be configurable to not advertise = themselves as default routers on the stub network." In some cases, I = think it may be possible for a stub router to automatically determine = that there is another stub router attached to the same stub network but = not the same AIL. Send text? :) > Section 3.5 > - "be able to discovery devices" -> "be able to discover devices" > - add references to SRP, Advertising Proxy, etc. Fixed, thanks! > Section 3.6 > - add reference to Discovery Proxy. Done. >=20 > Section 4.1 > - "traffix" -> "traffic" Done. > Section 4.2 > - "WFfi" -> "WiFi" Done. I also noticed that I=E2=80=99m using WiFi a lot, and the = trademarked term is Wi-Fi, so I corrected all of those cases. > Section 5 > - Should we recommend some way to deterministically converge on one = prefix when deprecating? Ooh, nice catch=E2=80=94I forgot about that. I=E2=80=99ve added this, = which describes what we did: When the time comes to deprecate one or more prefixes as a = result of a network partition healing, only one prefix should remain. If there are any GUA prefixes, and if there is no = specific configuration contradicting this, the GUA prefix that is numerically lowest should be kept, and all others deprecated. If = there are no GUA prefixes, then the ULA prefix that is numerically lowest should be kept, and the others deprecated. By = using this approach, it is not necessary for the routers to coordinate in advance. > Section 6 > - "effected" -> "affected" I actually meant =E2=80=9Ceffected,=E2=80=9D but maybe I should have = said =E2=80=9Cestablished?=E2=80=9D :) > Section 6.2 > - "off-mesh" -> "Off-Stub-Network" Oops. > Section 6.3 > - How does the infrastructure advertise availability of the SRP = service? If out of scope, maybe state that? Hm. I added this: This SRP service can be discovered using DNS-SD, using the _dnssd-srp-tls service type. If the = stub network requires UDP-based SRP rather than tls-based SRP, the stub router MUST act as a proxy to deliver SRP updates = over the tcp+tls transport. This probably needs to be fleshed out in this document, or else in = another dnssd document. 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[24.91.177.160]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q15sm9102850qkm.126.2021.02.27.12.19.13 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 27 Feb 2021 12:19:13 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.80.0.2.33\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <389E2CE9-A3A7-48D1-82D3-0ADA11981765@fugue.com> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 15:19:12 -0500 Cc: 6man@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <81FFDCE1-A297-47E1-B82A-F498E4F1F5A8@fugue.com> References: <13781.1614356677@localhost> <389E2CE9-A3A7-48D1-82D3-0ADA11981765@fugue.com> To: iotops@ietf.org, Homenet Working Group , Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.80.0.2.33) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] Ted's stub network document: draft-lemon-stub-networks{, -ps} X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 20:19:17 -0000 Since I=E2=80=99m updating the document... > On Feb 26, 2021, at 12:01 PM, Ted Lemon wrote: >> On Feb 26, 2021, at 11:24 AM, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 >> 2) There is advice about monitoring the RAs from the infrastructure = router >> (which is probably the home CPE router), and soliciting them = regularly. >> In effect, the Stub Router can't depend that the CPE router will = remain >> alive for it's lifetime. >> That is, the RA lifetimes tell the client how long it may use the >> resource, but not how to determine if the router is alive. Of = course, >> power can disappear at any time. >> Ted: it seems that maybe neigh-cache entries already have all the = timers >> and rechecks needed, and maybe the Stub Router can just watch for >> the NCE going Stale? >=20 > That would work, but depends on the stub router implementation being = able to get a notification that this has happened, which means it=E2=80=99= s running in the kernel. I don=E2=80=99t think that=E2=80=99s a likely = scenario. Also, NCEs have lifetimes, so they will also outlive on-link = routers. I=E2=80=99ve added this, but please suggest better wording: As an alternative to the vicarious router discovery process = described here, the stub router could monitor the presence of the router advertising the on-link prefix in the neighbor = cache. If the neighbor cache entry becomes stale, this could be an indication that the prefix is also stale. If the = neighbor cache entry goes stale, the router would need to try to refresh it, and if that fails, then the stub router = must begin advertising its own on-link prefix on the stub network. >> 4) I'd like to add a state machine diagram to 3.1.1/3.1.2. >=20 > I think that=E2=80=99s a good idea, although I am not really a fan of = state machine *diagrams* =E2=80=94 I=E2=80=99d maybe rather just = describe the state machine. Diagrams are easy to misread. There are = actually several state machines, and each I think is fairly simple, so = writing out a list of states, events and state transitions may be = practicable. This is noted, and on the to-do list, but not today. :)