From nobody Tue Jun 15 10:27:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78F383A3753 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 10:27:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id svWR10DtwIZ7 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 10:27:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1029.google.com (mail-pj1-x1029.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1029]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29FDA3A3750 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 10:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1029.google.com with SMTP id x21-20020a17090aa395b029016e25313bfcso78652pjp.2 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 10:27:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:subject:cc:date:message-id:reply-to:user-agent:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=aNEWajc4G5IAJTIu1ZMDrPz4dxc/derI+zAFCOw1oPo=; b=akC1p5XGhoFr92mw+8MNWlx/W7k/sJbC1y7FqdB+8mNav1uARkKrbISVyfgyN2PJb5 GKaJxYFqVR1FZWp3Pbaq7D9+SxX0ULCiVk9UPsD9kGLkmHixJw19x3Xep7PkOR66jkSh vNVZ8GM54Y25hCvRWFpx/Xi0saYXjasakVmgw2B5ImAlHxXItkhB3hzcnKR7/+lUeT4+ Ec3sCP0lR+dp/m7Yfc0XeiIYiA2ITOJcQjYXaQCw18q0byk2WRytV6D7OsvTGwmlMhH3 n69ZrZgpz8ISiZ6yw/ryNuLZfEFsSGOtfX+oyoWHK06UeCemC3nUYfRPaqQT8JCFRzzw wXCQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:cc:date:message-id:reply-to :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=aNEWajc4G5IAJTIu1ZMDrPz4dxc/derI+zAFCOw1oPo=; b=IK2NB+CYmpXlEfK5CNBAduIga2WxiE2gu84Cbz8Ri8X2efbVbQmhKebSYEsC6LYDZo n3rxCS0KqSBXeLsivdKDMIH3z7n8T8gAyE9S3wu1jCihRpkKDJ27cTv95Bit2OLxYHQw F/RW/X6t7v3Lsv+0NQfaygdE3F4NRhCrdgyFPdN5vDATFP9N8x9s6gqF4yo2mUHCzAlH 494k+QZoQdpeuarDVR1I7x+b3S+q4r+CMK5LGH6oDntwi/gBRkHbyoU0QxBQtNeIB74o 1ydUb7sL8k8yT3uEF1WX1nSnBIpsoUihCvwwQP062kYmY2qNSOv7mm55dHw5WPGi5Tv8 C9zw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532YSf/bPwI7OA1EFUoUouojaQKQn7OJhNyAfwILMWVtkUEk6sJJ yYTNXjoieS6NAHCflBvaoa04jle+pEE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy6r8uaSvSTNJXL/C54gPSU2/b0X8WblXWRlnURbeu5qWA1B5AAU2qjXZxCOoMS9mfZYC0KJQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:f07:: with SMTP id br7mr286949pjb.141.1623778058088; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 10:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (c-73-202-182-183.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.202.182.183]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g63sm15937685pfb.55.2021.06.15.10.27.37 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 15 Jun 2021 10:27:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "Kiran M (ietf)" To: iotops@ietf.org Cc: lijun.dong@futurewei.com Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 17:27:36 +0000 Message-Id: Reply-To: "Kiran M (ietf)" User-Agent: eM_Client/8.1.1083.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [Iotops] Fw: I-D Action: draft-km-industrial-internet-requirements-00.txt X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 17:27:42 -0000 Hi IOTOPS,=0A=0AI would like to make this group aware of the following docu= ment.=0A=0AHaving followed last IETF regular and interim meetings, it may = be a =0Arelevant to this group. There is a lot of discussion on wireless I= oT, =0Awe also wanted to bring connected industrial devices perspective an= d =0Aindustry control operations.=0A=0AWe are trying to build a case for em= erging applications, where =0Aintegration for traditional industry and inte= rnet protocols will be =0Aneeded.=0A=0ALook forward to discussion and feedb= ack.=0A=0AOn behalf of the authors,=0AThanks=0AKiran=0A=0A------ Forwarded= Message ------=0AFrom: internet-drafts@ietf.org=0ATo: i-d-announce@ietf.org= =0ASent: 6/10/2021 7:41:59 AM=0ASubject: I-D Action: draft-km-industrial-in= ternet-requirements-00.txt=0A=0A=0AA New Internet-Draft is available from t= he on-line Internet-Drafts directories.=0A=0A=0A Title := Requirements and Scenarios for Industry Internet Addressing=0A Auth= ors : Kiran Makhijani=0A Lijun Dong=0A Fi= lename : draft-km-industrial-internet-requirements-00.txt=0A Pages = : 13=0A Date : 2021-06-10=0A=0AAbstract:=0A Industry = Control Networks host a diverse set of non-internet=0A protocols for di= fferent purposes. Even though they operate in a=0A controlled environme= nt, one end of industrial control applications=0A run over internet tech= nologies (IT) and another over operational=0A technology (OT) protocols.= This memo discusses the challenges and=0A requirements relating to con= veregence of OT and IT networks. One=0A particular problem in convergen= ce is figuring out reachability=0A between the these networks.=0A=0A=0AT= he IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:=0Ahttps://datatracker.ie= tf.org/doc/draft-km-industrial-internet-requirements/=0A=0AThere is also an = htmlized version available at:=0Ahttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/dra= ft-km-industrial-internet-requirements-00=0A=0A=0AInternet-Drafts are also= available by anonymous FTP at:=0Aftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/=0A=0A= =0A_______________________________________________=0AI-D-Announce mailing l= ist=0AI-D-Announce@ietf.org=0Ahttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-ann= ounce=0AInternet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html=0Aor ft= p://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt From nobody Mon Jun 21 12:55:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5598E3A18EA for ; Mon, 21 Jun 2021 12:55:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y-wz-fK7pDSO for ; Mon, 21 Jun 2021 12:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B90A63A18EB for ; Mon, 21 Jun 2021 12:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C0C938AD4; Mon, 21 Jun 2021 15:56:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id ogNPeaeGAmdf; Mon, 21 Jun 2021 15:56:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D6DD38ACA; Mon, 21 Jun 2021 15:56:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 143BC9E; Mon, 21 Jun 2021 15:55:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "Kiran M \(ietf\)" , iotops@ietf.org, lijun.dong@futurewei.com In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Iotops] Fw: I-D Action: draft-km-industrial-internet-requirements-00.txt X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 19:55:26 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kiran M (ietf) wrote: > Title : Requirements and Scenarios for Industry Internet Ad= dressing > Authors : Kiran Makhijani > Lijun Dong > Filename : draft-km-industrial-internet-requirements-00.txt > Pages : 13 > Date : 2021-06-10 Thank you for the interesting document. If you ran it through xml2rfc --v2v3 mydraft.xml and submitted "mydraft.v2v= 3.xml" then you'd get the way more readable HTML generated as well the traditional= TXT. > Abstract: > Industry Control Networks host a diverse set of non-internet > protocols for different purposes. Even though they operate in a > controlled environment, one end of industrial control applications > run over internet technologies (IT) and another over operational > technology (OT) protocols. This memo discusses the challenges and > requirements relating to converegence of OT and IT networks. One > particular problem in convergence is figuring out reachability > between the these networks. About: Modbus, Profibus, CANbus, Profinet, etc. I understood that more and more these are running over "Ether/IP", which ma= ny of us just call IP. This eliminates the physical connectivity challenges, but opens up significant risk due to converged network and addressing. In the automotive space, ethernet (10baseT1S) seems to poised to win over CANbus. My observation is that the question is which year will it win, rather than if. Are you seeing CANbus used outside the automobile itself, = in industrial settings? (Do automotive plants use CANbus in the factory?) It feels like your document ended just as it was getting into the question you ask about how to arrange connectivity, addressing, etc. Is there more to your document that you had in mind to write? It's hard to know what your next step in the document would be. Some thoughts I have are: 1) the XYZ-over-IP would be best if they were either XYZ-over-TLS, or perha= ps XYZ-over-QUIC. Sprinkle in DETNET as needed. QUIC eliminates head-of-queue blocking issues, and so allows for higher priority commands to pass lower priority ones in the queue. {Of course, it should have been XYZ-over-SCTP-over-IPsec, and it could be so in a greenfield plant, but mindshare is not there} The challenge in the TLS based AKE is that we have to get the certificat= es installed, and then we have to arrange for mutual trust. I think that OPC UA currently deals with this kind of thing in it's configuration model, but I'm not priviledged to see those documents. (You may be?) Is that a gap you are interesting in? 2) since many of the other protocols use significant shorter identifiers, creating an overlay spec that embeds them in IPv6 IIDs would be interesting. This would allow IP based controllers to address Modbus, profibus, profinet, sensors/actuators directly, and if the underlying gateways and wiring allows, in a stateless way. Stateless is good because it means that the redundancy in the wiring can be exploited. This would be interesting work, but probably the IETF does not have the right people here (AT THIS TIME), to make progress on that. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmDQ7qMACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVK2Qf+KVOULU7gff9aEPlDy5v0iAy5wAjwKCxd0+rbIJbF3Nqh2ql6l4ek2azl ex38wNoJzTi+77hfDnKYkJdcoLFNVWZsy43iE43P3LMuqMGjt2i19SOTrXHxhWIx KSANJ/QZwqBW0VgT3PQxOW1pa0mQ9+ac0unPUjHPFr+F3G2EyzNzbtgS5z00GkJy BuLzU41TfZbM0ynssZXheFSjS3F/MItGurFFND1euB9OhRVKNMNI2JMECpjt/nUn xhv30GNq4u6viN4STAnWKAFiqehSWGk6t0ZV2PtFBWo6dbu3AjuREkldt06WpJB5 eA4RKrRBpsZotPwMpg34UXcCak/oaA== =ZnCo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Jun 25 14:11:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: iotops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D42B73A084C; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 14:11:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ndwwzVDufDDP; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 14:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CCA73A0853; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 14:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcc89.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.204.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4GBV6l4vLVz2xGb; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 23:11:27 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 646348287.003497-fb3724daac80c692205596cd4ebc9499 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.7\)) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 23:11:27 +0200 To: asdf@ietf.org, coin@irtf.org, iotops@ietf.org, danish@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.7) Archived-At: Subject: [Iotops] Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF111: DRAFT AGENDA X-BeenThere: iotops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IOT Operations List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 21:11:34 -0000 Here is my usual eclectic condensed agenda based on the DRAFT AGENDA for IETF111. Remember that there is still quite some potential for changes. The IoT-relevant conflicts that most meet the eye this time are LAKE/RATS, IOTOPS/RATS (and there is likely to be an IoT-relevant discussion at tsvwg, which overlaps the third RATS). All times *on my agenda* are in UTC (the default page is UTC-0700). Please forgive the 2500, I'm way too lazy to write code to turn this into 0100. (And it is advisable to ignore the fictional end time of the Wednesday plenary anyway.) https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda-utc might be handy. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten 1900-2100 Hackathon Kickoff Rm 1 GEN hackathon Hackathon FRIDAY, July 23, 2021 1900-2100 Hackathon Closing Rm 1 GEN hackathon Hackathon MONDAY, July 26, 2021 1900-2100 Session I Rm 1 ART dispatch Dispatch WG - Joint with ARTAREA Rm 2 IRTF anrw ACM/IRTF Applied Networking Research = Workshop - New Internet Protocols & Practical Congestion Control Rm 3 IRTF pearg Privacy Enhancements and Assessments = Research Group Rm 7 SEC gnap Grant Negotiation and Authorization = Protocol WG 2130-2230 Session II Rm 1 ART wpack Web Packaging WG Rm 2 IRTF irtfopen IRTF Open Meeting Rm 3 OPS anima Autonomic Networking Integrated Model = and Approach WG Rm 4 RTG babel Babel routing protocol WG Rm 7 SEC *** rats Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG Rm 8 TSV (!) tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG 2300-2500 Session III Rm 2 ART jsonpath JSON Path WG Rm 3 IRTF coinrg Computing in the Network Research Group Rm 7 SEC secdispatch Security Dispatch WG Rm 8 TSV masque Multiplexed Application Substrate over = QUIC Encryption WG TUESDAY, July 27, 2021 1900-2100 Session I Rm 1 ART sedate Serialising Extended Data About Times = and Events WG Rm 2 INT 6man IPv6 Maintenance WG Rm 3 IRTF anrw ACM/IRTF Applied Networking Research = Workshop - Interconnection and Routing & Monitoring Internet Traffic Rm 5 RTG bier Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG Rm 6 RTG raw Reliable and Available Wireless WG Rm 7 SEC *** danish DANE AutheNtication for Iot Service = Hardening BOF Rm 8 TSV quic QUIC WG 2130-2230 Session II Rm 3 INT dnssd Extensions for Scalable DNS Service = Discovery WG Rm 6 SEC saag Security Area Open Meeting Rm 7 TSV taps Transport Services WG 2300-2500 Session III Rm 7 SEC ohttp Oblivious HTTP BOF WEDNESDAY, July 28, 2021 1900-2100 Session I Rm 1 ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Rm 3 INT madinas MAC Address Device Identification for = Network and Application Services BOF Rm 4 IRTF anrw ACM/IRTF Applied Networking Research = Workshop - Privacy & Applications Rm 7 SEC tls Transport Layer Security WG 2130-2230 Session II Rm 2 ART uta Using TLS in Applications WG Rm 4 INT *** 6lo IPv6 over Networks of = Resource-constrained Nodes WG Rm 5 INT *** drip Drone Remote ID Protocol WG Rm 8 RTG rift Routing In Fat Trees WG Rm 9 SEC *** cose CBOR Object Signing and Encryption WG 2300-2440 IETF Plenary - Plenary THURSDAY, July 29, 2021 1900-2000 Session I Rm 3 OPS anima Autonomic Networking Integrated Model = and Approach WG Rm 4 OPS v6ops IPv6 Operations WG Rm 7 SEC *** lake Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange = WG Rm 8 SEC *** rats Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG Rm 9 TSV tsvarea Transport Area Open Meeting 2030-2130 Session II Rm 5 IRTF qirg Quantum Internet Research Group Rm 6 OPS *** iotops IOT Operations WG Rm 7 RTG rtgarea Routing Area Open Meeting Rm 9 SEC mls Messaging Layer Security WG Rm 8 SEC *** rats Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG 2200-2300 Session III Rm 5 SEC *** ace Authentication and Authorization for = Constrained Environments WG 2330-2430 Session IV Rm 4 IRTF panrg Path Aware Networking RG Rm 8 SEC emu EAP Method Update WG Rm 9 SEC *** teep Trusted Execution Environment = Provisioning WG FRIDAY, July 30, 2021 1900-2100 Session I Rm 1 ART webtrans WebTransport WG Rm 2 INT add Adaptive DNS Discovery WG Rm 5 RTG apn Application-aware Networking BOF Rm 7 SEC *** suit Software Updates for Internet of Things = WG 2130-2230 Session II Rm 1 ART *** cbor Concise Binary Object Representation = Maintenance and Extensions WG Rm 2 IRTF maprg Measurement and Analysis for Protocols Rm 5 RTG detnet Deterministic Networking WG Rm 6 SEC acme Automated Certificate Management = Environment WG Rm 7 SEC privacypass Privacy Pass WG 2300-2500 Session III Rm 1 ART httpapi Building Blocks for HTTP APIs WG Rm 2 INT intarea Internet Area Working Group WG Rm 3 IRTF cfrg Crypto Forum Rm 4 IRTF*** dinrg Decentralized Internet Infrastructure Rm 8 SEC *** teep Trusted Execution Environment = Provisioning WG Rm 9 TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG _______________________________________________ Lwip mailing list Lwip@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lwip