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From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
To: Jim Zubov <ietf-list@commercebyte.com>, "secdispatch@ietf.org" <secdispatch@ietf.org>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "iotops@ietf.org" <iotops@ietf.org>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Iotops] [Secdispatch] I-D: Deploying Publicly Trusted TLS Servers on IoT Devices Using SNI-based End-to-End TLS Forwarding (SNIF)
Thread-Index: AQHYHtVKop3offyr+0q9saoG3HE46Kyg/hiwgABVHACAAAMKAIABhbeAgAq46OA=
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2022 11:18:48 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iotops/Q2kQkBtFutdirRTaBhhrILCDkts>
Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Secdispatch] I-D: Deploying Publicly Trusted TLS Servers on IoT Devices Using SNI-based End-to-End TLS Forwarding (SNIF)
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Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2022 20:10:26 -0500
From: Jim Zubov <ietf-list@commercebyte.com>
To: secdispatch@ietf.org, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Jim Zubov <ietf-list@commercebyte.com>, "secdispatch@ietf.org" <secdispatch@ietf.org>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "iotops@ietf.org" <iotops@ietf.org>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Secdispatch] I-D: Deploying Publicly Trusted TLS Servers on IoT Devices Using SNI-based End-to-End TLS Forwarding (SNIF)
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Hi Hannes,

Good overview of strategic approaches, let me add another dimension -
- Can the relay access any information communicated between the device and=
 the user,
- If the answer is _no_ - can the user or some independent party verify th=
e validity of such claim=2E

In case of SNIF, the setup consists of
- an IoT device capable of serving HTTPS (user friendly pages or an API), =
running a SNIF connector,
- a web based device manager on the user side that works with the device's=
 HTTPS content (and expects a trusted cert),
- a SNIF relay / CA proxy server in the cloud,
- potentially, an independent observer that watches TLS transparency logs =
and raises an alert if any duplicate certs are found for the CNs issued by =
the CA proxy=2E

This way, the IoT device owns the private key, and there's a proof through=
 the public trust PKI that the device manager is communicating to the authe=
ntic device=2E
In case if the public CA trust is not enough, the device manager can exami=
ne the public key on the cert on every connection (should be possible to do=
 with the Forge project in regular js), and raise an alert if the key is ch=
anged (just like ssh does)=2E

SNIF is the answer for a smart home, a security cam, or any other private =
IoT you don't want anybody to sniff on (pun intended)=2E

If you're deploying a device accessable to a large group, like a public we=
bcam, SNIF might be not a good option, it might be better to have an interm=
idiate proxy that handles all traffic without choking the device=2E But, en=
d-to-end privacy is a lesser concern in such case=2E

Regarding the conversion of any existing devices to SNIF -
- serve the content on the device over HTTPS or local plain HTTP, whether =
it's a web page, a video stream or an API, listening on a local port (say 4=
43)
- run a SNIF connector process to maintain the cert and to relay to incomi=
ng SNIF connections to the local port=2E

On March 3, 2022 6:18:48 AM EST, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes=2ETschofenig@ar=
m=2Ecom> wrote:
>Hi Jim,
>
>Thanks for your response=2E
>
>> There are some IoT management solutions on the market, both open source=
 and proprietary, but as far as I can tell none of them fully follows the e=
nd to end paradigm=2E
>[Hannes] It depends what you call end-to-end=2E As an IoT service provide=
r you have to make a few decisions about how to manage and deploy IoT devic=
es=2E Broadly speaking, you have three options:
>
>  *   You  seek out to a third party to manage your devices=2E Needless t=
o say that you should pick a company that you feel comfortable with=2E They=
 will manage your devices and they will also offer ways to store the data o=
btained from the devices, to manage and distribute firmware updates, and ev=
en to perform analysis of the data (machine learning)=2E Then, you can typi=
cally connect backend application servers to the device management offering=
=2E Of course, the details vary a lot with what you are actually doing as a=
n IoT service provider with the IoT devices and the data=2E
>  *   You get the software from a provider and you manage the devices on =
your own=2E This is often the case when you want to deploy an on-premise so=
lution=2E Here you have to trust the provider of the device management soft=
ware that the code is correct and does what it is supposed to do=2E In some=
 cases you not only get the binary but also the source code=2E In theory, y=
ou could check what code is actually running (although I doubt that anyone =
really checks)=2E
>  *   Finally, you build your own device management solution (often using=
 available open source software)=2E
>In practice, I have also seen a combination of the variants above=2E For =
example, I have seen a case where the devices were managed by a third party=
 but the video stream of the surveillance camera was sent directly to a ded=
icated server managed by the IoT service provider=2E (There were also vario=
us techniques to prevent modifications to the device to have the video stre=
am re-directed or the credentials changes but I think you get the idea=2E) =
The communication model there was a bit different than yours because the cl=
ient initiated the communication with the video server=2E Hence, there was =
no issue with running a TLS server on the device=2E
>On top of this, it is also common to provide special security protection =
for selected data=2E For example, firmware updates are signed by party diff=
erent from the company offering the device management solution=2E They are,=
 for example, singed by the company developing the code=2E They are still d=
istributed by the device management infrastructure and hence you have to re=
ly on the distribution of them but there is no chance for the device manage=
ment provider to inject malicious code into the device=2E
>From what I am seeing, the first deployment model is very popular=2E The =
approach of =E2=80=9Cdesigning your own solution=E2=80=9D was popular in th=
e early days because companies were given the impression that this IoT stuf=
f is so simple that you can put a solution together in a weekend=2E It turn=
ed out that this is not quite the case (if you have a larger number of devi=
ces)=2E Many IoT service providers also need help designing the entire solu=
tion, also the solution on the IoT device itself=2E
>How does your solution fit into this picture?
>> I believe it's worth having a universal cross-vendor solution that hand=
les SNIF device onboarding, maintains the credentials in a local secure sto=
rage, and consolidates https based management interface hosted by individua=
l devices through SNIF=2E
>[Hannes] There is definitely a lot of excitement when it comes to the dev=
elopment of device onboarding solutions=2E I have to trust you that there i=
s further interest for solutions because I haven=E2=80=99t checked=2E
>
>> The requirements for such solution is a topic for a separate draft, alt=
hough I already outlined the possible secure onboarding process in the secu=
rity section=2E
>I will re-read your security consideration section again=2E
>
>Note that I am certainly not against your solution=2E If your approach ha=
s success, kudos to you=2E
>
>Ciao
>Hannes
>
>On February 24, 2022 5:37:46 AM EST, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes=2ETschofen=
ig@arm=2Ecom<mailto:Hannes=2ETschofenig@arm=2Ecom>> wrote:
>
>Hi Jim,
>
>Thanks for the quick response=2E The link to your website is helpful=2E I=
 now understood that you would also relay the communication through the pro=
xy, which deals with the IoT device being behind a NAT and/or firewall if t=
he IoT device keeps the connection alive=2E
>
>I wonder whether you have considered to re-use an existing device managem=
ent solutions since those is widely deployed today?
>
>Ciao
>Hannes
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Iotops <iotops-bounces@ietf=2Eorg<mailto:iotops-bounces@ietf=2Eorg>=
> On Behalf Of Jim Zubov
>Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2022 4:17 PM
>To: secdispatch@ietf=2Eorg<mailto:secdispatch@ietf=2Eorg>; Hannes Tschofe=
nig <Hannes=2ETschofenig@arm=2Ecom<mailto:Hannes=2ETschofenig@arm=2Ecom>>; =
Jim Zubov <ietf-list@commercebyte=2Ecom<mailto:ietf-list@commercebyte=2Ecom=
>>; secdispatch@ietf=2Eorg<mailto:secdispatch@ietf=2Eorg>; Michael Richards=
on <mcr+ietf@sandelman=2Eca<mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman=2Eca>>; iotops@ietf=
=2Eorg<mailto:iotops@ietf=2Eorg>; anima@ietf=2Eorg<mailto:anima@ietf=2Eorg>
>Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Secdispatch] I-D: Deploying Publicly Trusted TLS S=
ervers on IoT Devices Using SNI-based End-to-End TLS Forwarding (SNIF)
>
>Thank You for your feedback Hannes, I addressed the comments below -
>
>On February 23, 2022 5:36:15 AM EST, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes=2ETschofen=
ig@arm=2Ecom<mailto:Hannes=2ETschofenig@arm=2Ecom>> wrote:
>
>Hi all,
>
>Thanks for this contribution, Jim=2E
>
>Reading through the document I agree that the SUIB topic discussed in the=
 IOTOPS WG appears relevant=2E I also wonder whether the work in the DANISH=
 group (see https://datatracker=2Eietf=2Eorg/wg/danish/about/) is relevant=
=2E
>
>Agreed about SUIB, not quite sure about DANISH=2E DANISH is about certifi=
cate based authentication and PKI extensions, while SNIF is about end-to-en=
d relayed trusted TLS that relies on the standard PKI=2E
>
>Regarding the use in IoT I have a question for my understanding=2E
>
>In a nutshell, you introduce a proxy that allocates a hostname and reques=
ts a creation of a certificate on behalf of the IoT device=2E
>
>Correct, plus an e2e TLS relay=2E
>
>To get this to work you rely on three assumptions:
>(1) There has to be a communication infrastructure that associates the "a=
nonymous" hostname with a specific device and conveys these identifiers to =
the relevant parties=2E
>
>Each device is configured with an initUrl pointing to a specific CA proxy=
 that allocates a random hostname (a CN to be more accurate), normally a su=
bdomain of a master domain that has a wildcard DNS record pointing to the C=
A proxy=2E
>Example - the initUrl for public experimental use - https://snif=2Esnif=
=2Exyz:4443 The allocated wildcard CN is a subdomain of the master domain s=
nif=2Exyz
>
>
>(2) You assume that a party that wants to contact the IoT device is able =
to reach the device (i=2Ee=2E the IoT device is not behind a firewall or NA=
T)=2E
>
>Both the IoT device and the client connect to the SNIF relay=2E The whole=
 purpose of SNIF is to be able to work from behind NAT / firewall /etc, and=
 it's been confirmed to work in pre-production=2E In fact I had a minor hic=
kup with Fortigate in the process of testing which has been resolved=2E
>There are simplified diagrams on https://snif=2Ehost to illustrate the co=
ncept=2E
>
>
>(3) Someone operating IoT devices has to trust the proxy since it is easy=
 for the proxy to associate a hostname with a public key that was created b=
y the proxy (rather than the end device)=2E This essentially allows the pro=
xy to impersonating the IoT device=2E
>
>Is my understanding correct?
>
>Yes, I mentioned this vulnerability in the security section=2E The answer=
 is
>- watch the public TLS transparency logs, any party can do it=2E If any o=
verlapping CNs are found - the CA proxy is permanently compromised,
>- do not use random CA proxies owned by unknown parties=2E
>
>
>Ciao
>Hannes
>
>Any further questions/suggestions are welcome=2E
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Secdispatch <secdispatch-bounces@ietf=2Eorg<mailto:secdispatch-boun=
ces@ietf=2Eorg>> On Behalf Of Jim Zubov
>Sent: Friday, February 11, 2022 12:22 AM
>To: secdispatch@ietf=2Eorg<mailto:secdispatch@ietf=2Eorg>; Michael Richar=
dson <mcr+ietf@sandelman=2Eca<mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman=2Eca>>;
>Jim Zubov <ietf-list@commercebyte=2Ecom<mailto:ietf-list@commercebyte=2Ec=
om>>; iotops@ietf=2Eorg<mailto:iotops@ietf=2Eorg>; anima@ietf=2Eorg<mailto:=
anima@ietf=2Eorg>
>Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] I-D: Deploying Publicly Trusted TLS Servers
>on IoT Devices Using SNI-based End-to-End TLS Forwarding (SNIF)
>
>Thanks for the feedback again, my comment are below=2E
>I submitted a new version of the draft to reflect some changes=2E
>
>On February 10, 2022 1:02:48 PM EST, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelm=
an=2Eca<mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman=2Eca>> wrote:
>
>Jim Zubov <ietf-list@commercebyte=2Ecom<mailto:ietf-list@commercebyte=2Ec=
om>> wrote:
>
> This was also on the IETF112 IOTOPS WG agenda:
> slides:
> https://datatracker=2Eietf=2Eorg/meeting/112/materials/slides-112-iotops=
-suib-browsing-local-web-resources-in-a-secure-usable-manner-iot-device-con=
figuration-as-a-special-case-00
> video:  https://youtu=2Ebe/OIlJrUvwDcI?t=3D1649
>
> and we hope to return at IETF113=2E
>
>
>
>Right, looks like SUIB is working on a similar problem=2E Thanks for
>pointing this out=2E In particular, the "Sol #6 Device name DNS" slide
>looks quite similar to SNIF CA Proxy (Section 3)=2E However, SUIB pursues
>bigger infrastructural goals such as changing the localhost TLS
>connection policies (I totally agree and really appreciate the effort),
>while SNIF is a functioning solution within the existing
>infrastructure, tested and proven to work in pre-production=2E
>
>The slides may be too vague=2E  Changing the TLS policies is a possible
>solution, but probably an impractical one=2E  Nevertheless, many people
>(not steeped in the arts, and often failling into the PHB category)
>think that it is an obvious solution, so we list it in order to explain w=
hy it won't work=2E
>
>Yes, still sad that localhost slipped through the cracks when the origina=
l security standards were written=2E
>
>
>
> The SUIB problem addresses the challenge of connecting *locally* to a
> device,
> and doing it securely=2E  For this to be possible with RFC6125-DNS-ID
> standard
> browser, we need a name for the device, and we need a way to translate
> that
> name into a locally reachable IP address=2E
>
> The SNIF proposal does not quite solve the above problem=2E
>
>
>
>In fact, I originally designed SNIF to solve this specific problem -
>local-to-local trusted TLS connections=2E
>
>Ah, very nice to know=2E
>
>* Issue a wildcard cert through SNIF CA Proxy
>(e=2Eg=2E CN=3D*=2Edomain=2Esnif=2Exyz), set a DNS record for
>localhost=2Edomain=2Esnif=2Exyz to point to localhost's IPv4/v6, and use
>https://localhost=2Edomain=2Esnif=2Exyz (or other app protocol - imaps
>etc)=2E However, looks like some clients treat the localhost IP as
>inherently unsecure, and issue a warning ever is the cert is perfectly
>valid=2E The option is still possible, but the applicability might be
>limited=2E
>
>The process we described at
>
>https://specs=2Emanysecured=2Eorg/suib/Solutions/dnsname-embedded-solutio=
n
>
>also uses a wildcard cert, but has a magic authoritative DNS server
>that translates the left-most label into an A or AAAA record=2E  It's
>rather a cute hack, but at least:
>  a) it's cachable
>  b) it could even be calculated locally, if one ignores DNSSEC=2E
>
>Yes, using a local network IP instead of a localhost IP is actually a sma=
rt idea=2E
>However, inlining the local IP in the hostname, as SUIB does, means you'l=
l have to change the hostname in your client every time your network is cha=
nged=2E
>I have an thought for SNIF improvement - SNIF connector sends a SNIF DNS =
command to set a dynamic DNS A/AAAA for a certain hostname within the CN wi=
ldcard, and the CA proxy updates the DNS accordingly=2E This way the hostna=
me can be permanent, but with dynamic DNS=2E
>Another problem - most platforms won't let you bind to port < 1024 unless=
 you're a root=2E Might be ok for a device manufacturer, but is a potential=
 show stopper for any user space app=2E Relayed SNIF works around this prob=
lem since the listening ports are on the relay=2E
>
>
>
>
>* Another option is to override the IP routing rules=2E It is totally
>possible on iOS and Mac through a userspace VPN (only one VPN per
>device though - beware of possible conflicts)=2E In fact I have a
>functioning solution for it, in beta now -
>
>That doesn't really scale to many different domains=2E
>
>Totally agreed, I just mentioned that this option works for *some* cases,=
 tun/tap a is possible option too if you're a root=2E
>
>
>
>Still, if SNIF is replacing a manufacturer proprietary call-home protocol=
,
>there could be advantages from having well reviewed code bases, and
>potentially an ecosystem of SNIF Providers that manufacturers could
>outsource
>
>
>
>to=2E  Azure/Amazon/=2E=2E=2E could easily run such services=2E
>
>
>
>I see two options - a SNIF server implemented by each vendor for their
>own devices/services, or a bigger SNIF SaaS implemented by a trusted
>provider, used by vendors=2E
>
>Yes, but what's the financial motive for this provider?
>
>(1) For a vendor to run their own SNIF server: market as a true auditable=
 end-to-end for IoT devices they offer=2E
>(2) For a vendor using SNIF SaaS: market as (1) backed by
>{TrustedBigName}
>(3) For a {TrustedBigName} to run SNIF SaaS: collect fees from (2) for us=
ing their service and big name=2E
>
>As a matter of fact, SNIF relay is light on server resources=2E I've been=
 running it on a minimum DigitalOcean virtual server for months with more t=
han a dozen connectors,   the server load is a fraction of a percent=2E Of =
course if somebody connects IoT cameras they can generate some traffic, but=
 IoT vendors already handle it through their proprietary relays=2E
>
>
>
>SNIF seems very much IPv4 NAT44 focused, and it could benefit from some
>understanding of IPv6 and IPv6-over-IPv4 technologies,
>
> particularly
>
>Teredo=2E
>
>
>
>SNIF is not exactly focused on v4, it works fine with v6 as well=2E It's
>designed to work around NAT, that's true=2E However, IPv6 networks may
>pose issues too - firewalls etc, which will prevent to directly accept
>incoming TCP on IPv6 address=2E
>
>Teredo could be used instead and allows the relay to be stateless and
>distributed, and devolves to ordinary IPv6 when it is present=2E
>
>Yes, but Teredo is IPv6 specific, the world is not strictly IPv6 yet=2E A=
nd it's a system level solution, while SNIF works fine in a user space=2E
>
>
>
>It clearly has to speak HTTPS only=2E
>
>
>
>I specified HTTP because PKCS#10 and X=2E509 are inherently secure to be
>sent over a plain connection=2E
>
>Yes, but there are privacy concerns which will become a pain, so
>better to just say HTTPS here=2E
>
>I respectfully disagree, still think HTTP is an easier answer for SNIF=2E=
 The problem with HTTPS is - SNIF relay (usually) routes https port to SNIF=
 connectors, and does not serve it within the server=2E Having a dedicated =
hostname or an alternate port means than SNIF connectors need additional co=
nfiguration options, or additional discovery protocols=2E On the other hand=
, HTTP allows to derive all API URLs deterministically from the CN=2E
>I addressed the possible security concerns in more details and amended th=
e Security section in the draft=2E
>
>
>
>
>The best option is the manufacturer I believe=2E The manufacturer can
>have either their own SNIF server, or work with a trusted SaaS=2E This
>way it's zero setup for the end user, and doesn't need any
>infrastructure additions=2E
>
>Agreed, the manufacturer has to provision a credential=2E
>
>Yes I proposed some outlines in the security section, more detailed specs=
 are probably better to describe in a separate draft=2E
>
>
>
>Sure, elliptic curves are better, but some old school clients may have
>problems with them=2E It may make sense to not mention the recommended
>algorithm in the draft, and just to follow the CA's recommendations=2E
>
>ECDSA acceleration is pretty much ubiquitous, while RSA is not=2E
>
>Honestly I don't think acceleration is such a big deal, most of TLS job i=
s symmetric ciphers anyway=2E But I agree - it's better to follow the CA su=
ggestions and industry practices=2E
>
>
>
>I believe there's no security issue, as long as the CN entropy is suffici=
ent=2E
>
>
>
>I specified the X-SNIF-CN: as mandatory, and text/plain body as an
>optional duplicate of it=2E To make it cleaner, I can remove the body
>from the specs and say the response body is to be ignored=2E
>
>If both are present, and they don't match, then there is confusion=2E
>So just go with one=2E  I think that it should actually be a JSON or CBOR=
 payload return=2E
>
>Agreed, I removed the response body from the draft, going with the header=
=2E
>
>
>
>
>They *aren't* what IANA would call "IP protocols", which would be things
>like
>TCP, UDP, SCTP, ESP, =2E=2E=2E
>
>
>
>Has IANA *already* registered port 7123 then?
>
>
>
>It's not an IP protocol=2E It's a service that listens on TCP 7123, I
>registered with IANA based on a previous version of the document,
>before I turned it into an I-D=2E
>
>I think you should drop the "snif-*" sentence as it makes no sense=2E
>You have already allocated TCP port 7123 to the SNIF *service*, so
>that's great=2E
>
>It's actually called "Service Names" in IANA terminology, sorry for the c=
onfusion=2E I updated in the draft=2E
>
>
>
>--
>]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh netwo=
rks [
>]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        |    IoT architec=
t   [
>]     mcr@sandelman=2Eca<mailto:mcr@sandelman=2Eca>  http://www=2Esandelm=
an=2Eca/        |   ruby on rails    [
>
>________________________________
>
>Secdispatch mailing list
>Secdispatch@ietf=2Eorg<mailto:Secdispatch@ietf=2Eorg>
>https://www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch
>IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are conf=
idential and may also be privileged=2E If you are not the intended recipien=
t, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to=
 any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information=
 in any medium=2E Thank you=2E
>
>________________________________
>
>Secdispatch mailing list
>Secdispatch@ietf=2Eorg<mailto:Secdispatch@ietf=2Eorg>
>https://www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch
>
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>Iotops@ietf=2Eorg<mailto:Iotops@ietf=2Eorg>
>https://www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/iotops
>IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are conf=
idential and may also be privileged=2E If you are not the intended recipien=
t, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to=
 any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information=
 in any medium=2E Thank you=2E
>
>IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are conf=
idential and may also be privileged=2E If you are not the intended recipien=
t, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to=
 any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information=
 in any medium=2E Thank you=2E

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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap:bre=
ak-word">Hi Hannes,<br><br>Good overview of strategic approaches, let me ad=
d another dimension -<br>- Can the relay access any information communicate=
d between the device and the user,<br>- If the answer is _no_ - can the use=
r or some independent party verify the validity of such claim=2E<br><br>In =
case of SNIF, the setup consists of<br>- an IoT device capable of serving H=
TTPS (user friendly pages or an API), running a SNIF connector,<br>- a web =
based device manager on the user side that works with the device's HTTPS co=
ntent (and expects a trusted cert),<br>- a SNIF relay / CA proxy server in =
the cloud,<br>- potentially, an independent observer that watches TLS trans=
parency logs and raises an alert if any duplicate certs are found for the C=
Ns issued by the CA proxy=2E<br><br>This way, the IoT device owns the priva=
te key, and there's a proof through the public trust PKI that the device ma=
nager is communicating to the authentic device=2E<br>In case if the public =
CA trust is not enough, the device manager can examine the public key on th=
e cert on every connection (should be possible to do with the Forge project=
 in regular js), and raise an alert if the key is changed (just like ssh do=
es)=2E<br><br>SNIF is the answer for a smart home, a security cam, or any o=
ther private IoT you don't want anybody to sniff on (pun intended)=2E<br><b=
r>If you're deploying a device accessable to a large group, like a public w=
ebcam, SNIF might be not a good option, it might be better to have an inter=
midiate proxy that handles all traffic without choking the device=2E But, e=
nd-to-end privacy is a lesser concern in such case=2E<br><br>Regarding the =
conversion of any existing devices to SNIF -<br>- serve the content on the =
device over HTTPS or local plain HTTP, whether it's a web page, a video str=
eam or an API, listening on a local port (say 443)<br>- run a SNIF connecto=
r process to maintain the cert and to relay to incoming SNIF connections to=
 the local port=2E<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On March 3, 2022 6:18:=
48 AM EST, Hannes Tschofenig &lt;Hannes=2ETschofenig@arm=2Ecom&gt; wrote:<b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0=2E8ex; borde=
r-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">

<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Jim, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for your response=2E <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt">&gt; There are som=
e IoT management solutions on the market, both open source and proprietary,=
 but as far as I can tell none of them fully follows the end to end paradig=
m=2E<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt">[Hannes] It depend=
s what you call end-to-end=2E As an IoT service provider you have to make a=
 few decisions about how to manage and deploy IoT devices=2E Broadly speaki=
ng, you have three options:
<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt;margin-left=
:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
You &nbsp;seek out to a third party to manage your devices=2E Needless to =
say that you should pick a company that you feel comfortable with=2E They w=
ill manage your devices and they will also offer ways to store the data obt=
ained from the devices, to manage and distribute
 firmware updates, and even to perform analysis of the data (machine learn=
ing)=2E Then, you can typically connect backend application servers to the =
device management offering=2E Of course, the details vary a lot with what y=
ou are actually doing as an IoT service
 provider with the IoT devices and the data=2E<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D=
"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-list=
:l0 level1 lfo1">
You get the software from a provider and you manage the devices on your ow=
n=2E This is often the case when you want to deploy an on-premise solution=
=2E Here you have to trust the provider of the device management software t=
hat the code is correct and does what
 it is supposed to do=2E In some cases you not only get the binary but als=
o the source code=2E In theory, you could check what code is actually runni=
ng (although I doubt that anyone really checks)=2E
<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-bottom:12=
=2E0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
Finally, you build your own device management solution (often using availa=
ble open source software)=2E
<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt">In practice, I hav=
e also seen a combination of the variants above=2E For example, I have seen=
 a case where the devices were managed by a third party but the video strea=
m of the surveillance camera was sent directly
 to a dedicated server managed by the IoT service provider=2E (There were =
also various techniques to prevent modifications to the device to have the =
video stream re-directed or the credentials changes but I think you get the=
 idea=2E) The communication model there
 was a bit different than yours because the client initiated the communica=
tion with the video server=2E Hence, there was no issue with running a TLS =
server on the device=2E<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt">On top of this, it=
 is also common to provide special security protection for selected data=2E=
 For example, firmware updates are signed by party different from the compa=
ny offering the device management solution=2E
 They are, for example, singed by the company developing the code=2E They =
are still distributed by the device management infrastructure and hence you=
 have to rely on the distribution of them but there is no chance for the de=
vice management provider to inject
 malicious code into the device=2E <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt">From what I am see=
ing, the first deployment model is very popular=2E The approach of =E2=80=
=9Cdesigning your own solution=E2=80=9D was popular in the early days becau=
se companies were given the impression that this IoT stuff
 is so simple that you can put a solution together in a weekend=2E It turn=
ed out that this is not quite the case (if you have a larger number of devi=
ces)=2E Many IoT service providers also need help designing the entire solu=
tion, also the solution on the IoT device
 itself=2E<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt">How does your solu=
tion fit into this picture?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt">&gt; I believe it'=
s worth having a universal cross-vendor solution that handles SNIF device o=
nboarding, maintains the credentials in a local secure storage, and consoli=
dates https based management interface hosted
 by individual devices through SNIF=2E<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt">[Hannes] There is =
definitely a lot of excitement when it comes to the development of device o=
nboarding solutions=2E I have to trust you that there is further interest f=
or solutions because I haven=E2=80=99t checked=2E<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt"><br>
&gt; The requirements for such solution is a topic for a separate draft, a=
lthough I already outlined the possible secure onboarding process in the se=
curity section=2E<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt">I will re-read you=
r security consideration section again=2E
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt">Note that I am cer=
tainly not against your solution=2E If your approach has success, kudos to =
you=2E
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt">Ciao<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt">Hannes<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On February 24, 2022 5:37:46 AM EST, Hannes Tschofe=
nig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Hannes=2ETschofenig@arm=2Ecom">Hannes=2ETschofeni=
g@arm=2Ecom</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1=2E0pt;padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in">
<pre>Hi Jim,<br><br>Thanks for the quick response=2E The link to your webs=
ite is helpful=2E I now understood that you would also relay the communicat=
ion through the proxy, which deals with the IoT device being behind a NAT a=
nd/or firewall if the IoT device keeps the connection alive=2E<br><br>I won=
der whether you have considered to re-use an existing device management sol=
utions since those is widely deployed today?<br><br>Ciao<br>Hannes<br><br>-=
----Original Message-----<br>From: Iotops &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:iotops-boun=
ces@ietf=2Eorg">iotops-bounces@ietf=2Eorg</a>&gt; On Behalf Of Jim Zubov<br=
>Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2022 4:17 PM<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:secdis=
patch@ietf=2Eorg">secdispatch@ietf=2Eorg</a>; Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:Hannes=2ETschofenig@arm=2Ecom">Hannes=2ETschofenig@arm=2Ecom</a>=
&gt;; Jim Zubov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-list@commercebyte=2Ecom">ietf-li=
st@commercebyte=2Ecom</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:secdispatch@ietf=2Eorg">se=
cdispatch@ietf=2Eorg</a>; Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf=
@sandelman=2Eca">mcr+ietf@sandelman=2Eca</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:iotops@=
ietf=2Eorg">iotops@ietf=2Eorg</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:anima@ietf=2Eorg">anim=
a@ietf=2Eorg</a><br>Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Secdispatch] I-D: Deploying Publ=
icly Trusted TLS Servers on IoT Devices Using SNI-based End-to-End TLS Forw=
arding (SNIF)<br><br>Thank You for your feedback Hannes, I addressed the co=
mments below -<br><br>On February 23, 2022 5:36:15 AM EST, Hannes Tschofeni=
g &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Hannes=2ETschofenig@arm=2Ecom">Hannes=2ETschofenig@=
arm=2Ecom</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre>Hi all,<br><br>Thanks for this contribution, Jim=2E<br><br>Reading th=
rough the document I agree that the SUIB topic discussed in the IOTOPS WG a=
ppears relevant=2E I also wonder whether the work in the DANISH group (see =
<a href=3D"https://datatracker=2Eietf=2Eorg/wg/danish/about/)">https://data=
tracker=2Eietf=2Eorg/wg/danish/about/)</a> is relevant=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt"><br>Agreed about SUIB, not quite sur=
e about DANISH=2E DANISH is about certificate based authentication and PKI =
extensions, while SNIF is about end-to-end relayed trusted TLS that relies =
on the standard PKI=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre><br>Regarding the use in IoT I have a question for my understanding=
=2E<br><br>In a nutshell, you introduce a proxy that allocates a hostname a=
nd requests a creation of a certificate on behalf of the IoT device=2E<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><br>Correct, plus an e2e TLS relay=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre><br>To get this to work you rely on three assumptions:<br>(1) There h=
as to be a communication infrastructure that associates the "anonymous" hos=
tname with a specific device and conveys these identifiers to the relevant =
parties=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt"><br>Each device is configured with a=
n initUrl pointing to a specific CA proxy that allocates a random hostname =
(a CN to be more accurate), normally a subdomain of a master domain that ha=
s a wildcard DNS record pointing to the CA proxy=2E<br>Example - the initUr=
l for public experimental use - <a href=3D"https://snif=2Esnif=2Exyz:4443">=
https://snif=2Esnif=2Exyz:4443</a> The allocated wildcard CN is a subdomain=
 of the master domain snif=2Exyz<br><br><o:p></o:p></pre>
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre>(2) You assume that a party that wants to contact the IoT device is a=
ble to reach the device (i=2Ee=2E the IoT device is not behind a firewall o=
r NAT)=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt"><br>Both the IoT device and the clie=
nt connect to the SNIF relay=2E The whole purpose of SNIF is to be able to =
work from behind NAT / firewall /etc, and it's been confirmed to work in pr=
e-production=2E In fact I had a minor hickup with Fortigate in the process =
of testing which has been resolved=2E<br>There are simplified diagrams on <=
a href=3D"https://snif=2Ehost">https://snif=2Ehost</a> to illustrate the co=
ncept=2E<br><br><o:p></o:p></pre>
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre>(3) Someone operating IoT devices has to trust the proxy since it is =
easy for the proxy to associate a hostname with a public key that was creat=
ed by the proxy (rather than the end device)=2E This essentially allows the=
 proxy to impersonating the IoT device=2E<br><br>Is my understanding correc=
t?<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt"><br>Yes, I mentioned this vulnerabil=
ity in the security section=2E The answer is<br>- watch the public TLS tran=
sparency logs, any party can do it=2E If any overlapping CNs are found - th=
e CA proxy is permanently compromised,<br>- do not use random CA proxies ow=
ned by unknown parties=2E<br><br><o:p></o:p></pre>
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre><br>Ciao<br>Hannes<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt"><br>Any further questions/suggestion=
s are welcome=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Secdispatch &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:secdispatch-bounces@ietf=2Eorg">secdispatch-bounces@ietf=2Eorg</a>&gt;=
 On Behalf Of Jim Zubov<br>Sent: Friday, February 11, 2022 12:22 AM<br>To: =
<a href=3D"mailto:secdispatch@ietf=2Eorg">secdispatch@ietf=2Eorg</a>; Micha=
el Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman=2Eca">mcr+ietf@sande=
lman=2Eca</a>&gt;;<br>Jim Zubov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-list@commercebyt=
e=2Ecom">ietf-list@commercebyte=2Ecom</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:iotops@iet=
f=2Eorg">iotops@ietf=2Eorg</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:anima@ietf=2Eorg">anima@i=
etf=2Eorg</a><br>Subject: Re: [Secdispatch] I-D: Deploying Publicly Trusted=
 TLS Servers<br>on IoT Devices Using SNI-based End-to-End TLS Forwarding (S=
NIF)<br><br>Thanks for the feedback again, my comment are below=2E<br>I sub=
mitted a new version of the draft to reflect some changes=2E<br><br>On Febr=
uary 10, 2022 1:02:48 PM EST, Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr+=
ietf@sandelman=2Eca">mcr+ietf@sandelman=2Eca</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre=
>
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre><br>Jim Zubov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-list@commercebyte=2Ecom">iet=
f-list@commercebyte=2Ecom</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
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=2E0pt">
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre> This was also on the IETF112 IOTOPS WG agenda:<br> slides:<br> <a hr=
ef=3D"https://datatracker=2Eietf=2Eorg/meeting/112/materials/slides-112-iot=
ops-suib-browsing-local-web-resources-in-a-secure-usable-manner-iot-device-=
configuration-as-a-special-case-00">https://datatracker=2Eietf=2Eorg/meetin=
g/112/materials/slides-112-iotops-suib-browsing-local-web-resources-in-a-se=
cure-usable-manner-iot-device-configuration-as-a-special-case-00</a><br> vi=
deo:&nbsp; <a href=3D"https://youtu=2Ebe/OIlJrUvwDcI?t=3D1649">https://yout=
u=2Ebe/OIlJrUvwDcI?t=3D1649</a><br><br> and we hope to return at IETF113=2E=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre>Right, looks like SUIB is working on a similar problem=2E Thanks for<=
br>pointing this out=2E In particular, the "Sol #6 Device name DNS" slide<b=
r>looks quite similar to SNIF CA Proxy (Section 3)=2E However, SUIB pursues=
<br>bigger infrastructural goals such as changing the localhost TLS<br>conn=
ection policies (I totally agree and really appreciate the effort),<br>whil=
e SNIF is a functioning solution within the existing<br>infrastructure, tes=
ted and proven to work in pre-production=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><br>The slides may be too vague=2E&nbsp; Changing the TLS policies is=
 a possible<br>solution, but probably an impractical one=2E&nbsp; Neverthel=
ess, many people<br>(not steeped in the arts, and often failling into the P=
HB category)<br>think that it is an obvious solution, so we list it in orde=
r to explain why it won't work=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt"><br>Yes, still sad that localhost sl=
ipped through the cracks when the original security standards were written=
=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre> The SUIB problem addresses the challenge of connecting *locally* to =
a<br> device,<br> and doing it securely=2E&nbsp; For this to be possible wi=
th RFC6125-DNS-ID<br> standard<br> browser, we need a name for the device, =
and we need a way to translate<br> that<br> name into a locally reachable I=
P address=2E<br><br> The SNIF proposal does not quite solve the above probl=
em=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre>In fact, I originally designed SNIF to solve this specific problem -<=
br>local-to-local trusted TLS connections=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt"><br>Ah, very nice to know=2E<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre>* Issue a wildcard cert through SNIF CA Proxy<br>(e=2Eg=2E CN=3D*=2Ed=
omain=2Esnif=2Exyz), set a DNS record for<br>localhost=2Edomain=2Esnif=2Exy=
z to point to localhost's IPv4/v6, and use<br><a href=3D"https://localhost=
=2Edomain=2Esnif=2Exyz">https://localhost=2Edomain=2Esnif=2Exyz</a> (or oth=
er app protocol - imaps<br>etc)=2E However, looks like some clients treat t=
he localhost IP as<br>inherently unsecure, and issue a warning ever is the =
cert is perfectly<br>valid=2E The option is still possible, but the applica=
bility might be<br>limited=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><br>The process we described at<br><br><a href=3D"https://specs=2Eman=
ysecured=2Eorg/suib/Solutions/dnsname-embedded-solution">https://specs=2Ema=
nysecured=2Eorg/suib/Solutions/dnsname-embedded-solution</a><br><br>also us=
es a wildcard cert, but has a magic authoritative DNS server<br>that transl=
ates the left-most label into an A or AAAA record=2E&nbsp; It's<br>rather a=
 cute hack, but at least:<br>&nbsp; a) it's cachable<br>&nbsp; b) it could =
even be calculated locally, if one ignores DNSSEC=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt"><br>Yes, using a local network IP in=
stead of a localhost IP is actually a smart idea=2E<br>However, inlining th=
e local IP in the hostname, as SUIB does, means you'll have to change the h=
ostname in your client every time your network is changed=2E<br>I have an t=
hought for SNIF improvement - SNIF connector sends a SNIF DNS command to se=
t a dynamic DNS A/AAAA for a certain hostname within the CN wildcard, and t=
he CA proxy updates the DNS accordingly=2E This way the hostname can be per=
manent, but with dynamic DNS=2E<br>Another problem - most platforms won't l=
et you bind to port &lt; 1024 unless you're a root=2E Might be ok for a dev=
ice manufacturer, but is a potential show stopper for any user space app=2E=
 Relayed SNIF works around this problem since the listening ports are on th=
e relay=2E<br><br><o:p></o:p></pre>
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre>* Another option is to override the IP routing rules=2E It is totally=
<br>possible on iOS and Mac through a userspace VPN (only one VPN per<br>de=
vice though - beware of possible conflicts)=2E In fact I have a<br>function=
ing solution for it, in beta now -<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><br>That doesn't really scale to many different domains=2E<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt"><br>Totally agreed, I just mentioned=
 that this option works for *some* cases, tun/tap a is possible option too =
if you're a root=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre>Still, if SNIF is replacing a manufacturer proprietary call-home prot=
ocol,<br>there could be advantages from having well reviewed code bases, an=
d<br>potentially an ecosystem of SNIF Providers that manufacturers could<br=
>outsource<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre>to=2E&nbsp; Azure/Amazon/=2E=2E=2E could easily run such services=2E<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre>I see two options - a SNIF server implemented by each vendor for thei=
r<br>own devices/services, or a bigger SNIF SaaS implemented by a trusted<b=
r>provider, used by vendors=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><br>Yes, but what's the financial motive for this provider?<o:p></o:p=
></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt"><br>(1) For a vendor to run their ow=
n SNIF server: market as a true auditable end-to-end for IoT devices they o=
ffer=2E<br>(2) For a vendor using SNIF SaaS: market as (1) backed by<br>{Tr=
ustedBigName}<br>(3) For a {TrustedBigName} to run SNIF SaaS: collect fees =
from (2) for using their service and big name=2E<br><br>As a matter of fact=
, SNIF relay is light on server resources=2E I've been running it on a mini=
mum DigitalOcean virtual server for months with more than a dozen connector=
s,&nbsp;&nbsp; the server load is a fraction of a percent=2E Of course if s=
omebody connects IoT cameras they can generate some traffic, but IoT vendor=
s already handle it through their proprietary relays=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre>SNIF seems very much IPv4 NAT44 focused, and it could benefit from so=
me<br>understanding of IPv6 and IPv6-over-IPv4 technologies,<o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt"> particularly<o:p></o:p></pre>
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #FCAF3E 1=2E0pt;padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre>Teredo=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre>SNIF is not exactly focused on v4, it works fine with v6 as well=2E I=
t's<br>designed to work around NAT, that's true=2E However, IPv6 networks m=
ay<br>pose issues too - firewalls etc, which will prevent to directly accep=
t<br>incoming TCP on IPv6 address=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><br>Teredo could be used instead and allows the relay to be stateless=
 and<br>distributed, and devolves to ordinary IPv6 when it is present=2E<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt"><br>Yes, but Teredo is IPv6 specific=
, the world is not strictly IPv6 yet=2E And it's a system level solution, w=
hile SNIF works fine in a user space=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #FCAF3E 1=2E0pt;padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre>It clearly has to speak HTTPS only=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
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:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre>I specified HTTP because PKCS#10 and X=2E509 are inherently secure to=
 be<br>sent over a plain connection=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><br>Yes, but there are privacy concerns which will become a pain, so<=
br>better to just say HTTPS here=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt"><br>I respectfully disagree, still t=
hink HTTP is an easier answer for SNIF=2E The problem with HTTPS is - SNIF =
relay (usually) routes https port to SNIF connectors, and does not serve it=
 within the server=2E Having a dedicated hostname or an alternate port mean=
s than SNIF connectors need additional configuration options, or additional=
 discovery protocols=2E On the other hand, HTTP allows to derive all API UR=
Ls deterministically from the CN=2E<br>I addressed the possible security co=
ncerns in more details and amended the Security section in the draft=2E<br>=
<br><o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #AD7FA8 1=2E0pt;padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #8AE234 1=2E0pt;padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre>The best option is the manufacturer I believe=2E The manufacturer can=
<br>have either their own SNIF server, or work with a trusted SaaS=2E This<=
br>way it's zero setup for the end user, and doesn't need any<br>infrastruc=
ture additions=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><br>Agreed, the manufacturer has to provision a credential=2E<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt"><br>Yes I proposed some outlines in =
the security section, more detailed specs are probably better to describe i=
n a separate draft=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #AD7FA8 1=2E0pt;padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #8AE234 1=2E0pt;padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre>Sure, elliptic curves are better, but some old school clients may hav=
e<br>problems with them=2E It may make sense to not mention the recommended=
<br>algorithm in the draft, and just to follow the CA's recommendations=2E<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><br>ECDSA acceleration is pretty much ubiquitous, while RSA is not=2E=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt"><br>Honestly I don't think accelerat=
ion is such a big deal, most of TLS job is symmetric ciphers anyway=2E But =
I agree - it's better to follow the CA suggestions and industry practices=
=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #AD7FA8 1=2E0pt;padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #8AE234 1=2E0pt;padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre>I believe there's no security issue, as long as the CN entropy is suf=
ficient=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #8AE234 1=2E0pt;padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre>I specified the X-SNIF-CN: as mandatory, and text/plain body as an<br=
>optional duplicate of it=2E To make it cleaner, I can remove the body<br>f=
rom the specs and say the response body is to be ignored=2E<o:p></o:p></pre=
>
</blockquote>
<pre><br>If both are present, and they don't match, then there is confusio=
n=2E<br>So just go with one=2E&nbsp; I think that it should actually be a J=
SON or CBOR payload return=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt"><br>Agreed, I removed the response b=
ody from the draft, going with the header=2E<br><br><o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #AD7FA8 1=2E0pt;padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #8AE234 1=2E0pt;padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #FCAF3E 1=2E0pt;padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre>They *aren't* what IANA would call "IP protocols", which would be thi=
ngs<br>like<br>TCP, UDP, SCTP, ESP, =2E=2E=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #8AE234 1=2E0pt;padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #FCAF3E 1=2E0pt;padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre>Has IANA *already* registered port 7123 then?<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #8AE234 1=2E0pt;padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre>It's not an IP protocol=2E It's a service that listens on TCP 7123, I=
<br>registered with IANA based on a previous version of the document,<br>be=
fore I turned it into an I-D=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><br>I think you should drop the "snif-*" sentence as it makes no sens=
e=2E<br>You have already allocated TCP port 7123 to the SNIF *service*, so<=
br>that's great=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt"><br>It's actually called "Service Na=
mes" in IANA terminology, sorry for the confusion=2E I updated in the draft=
=2E<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #AD7FA8 1=2E0pt;padding=
:0in 0in 0in 6=2E0pt;margin-left:4=2E8pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:6=
=2E0pt">
<pre style=3D"margin-bottom:12=2E0pt"><br>--<br>]&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Never tell me t=
he odds!&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | ipv6 mesh networks [<br>]&nbsp;&nbsp; Micha=
el Richardson, Sandelman Software Works&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IoT architect&nbsp;&nbsp; [<br>]&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; <a href=3D"mailto:mcr@sandelman=2Eca">mcr@sandelman=2Eca</a>&nbsp;=
 <a href=3D"http://www=2Esandelman=2Eca/">http://www=2Esandelman=2Eca/</a>&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; ruby on rails&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; [<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre style=3D"text-align:center"><hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"ce=
nter"></pre>
<pre>Secdispatch mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Secdispatch@ietf=2Eorg"=
>Secdispatch@ietf=2Eorg</a><br><a href=3D"https://www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/=
listinfo/secdispatch">https://www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch=
</a><br>IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments ar=
e confidential and may also be privileged=2E If you are not the intended re=
cipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the conte=
nts to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the infor=
mation in any medium=2E Thank you=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"text-align:center"><hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"ce=
nter"></pre>
<pre>Secdispatch mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Secdispatch@ietf=2Eorg"=
>Secdispatch@ietf=2Eorg</a><br><a href=3D"https://www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/=
listinfo/secdispatch">https://www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/secdispatch=
</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<pre><br>--<br>Iotops mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Iotops@ietf=2Eorg"=
>Iotops@ietf=2Eorg</a><br><a href=3D"https://www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/listi=
nfo/iotops">https://www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/iotops</a><br>IMPORTA=
NT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential =
and may also be privileged=2E If you are not the intended recipient, please=
 notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any othe=
r person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any m=
edium=2E Thank you=2E<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confi=
dential and may also be privileged=2E If you are not the intended recipient=
, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to =
any other person, use it for any purpose,
 or store or copy the information in any medium=2E Thank you=2E

</blockquote></div></body></html>

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From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
To: Jim Zubov <ietf-list@commercebyte.com>, "secdispatch@ietf.org" <secdispatch@ietf.org>, "secdispatch@ietf.org" <secdispatch@ietf.org>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "iotops@ietf.org" <iotops@ietf.org>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Secdispatch] [Iotops] I-D: Deploying Publicly Trusted TLS Servers on IoT Devices Using SNI-based End-to-End TLS Forwarding (SNIF)
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iotops/9ZXcdP5a6XrLih12jPJgz-zXclk>
Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Secdispatch] I-D: Deploying Publicly Trusted TLS Servers on IoT Devices Using SNI-based End-to-End TLS Forwarding (SNIF)
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Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Secdispatch] I-D: Deploying Publicly Trusted TLS Servers on IoT Devices Using SNI-based End-to-End TLS Forwarding (SNIF)
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Jim Zubov <ietf-list@commercebyte.com> wrote:
    > I just want to emphasize once again that the relay is end to end TLS.
    > There are some IoT management solutions on the market, both open sour=
ce
    > and proprietary, but as far as I can tell none of them fully follows
    > the end to end paradigm. I believe it's worth having a universal
    > cross-vendor solution that handles SNIF device onboarding, maintains
    > the credentials in a local secure storage, and consolidates https bas=
ed
    > management interface hosted by individual devices through SNIF.

Even if SNIF winds up "just" being a standardized way to call-home, I think
that has value.    I think that some text needs to be added contrasting SNIF
to UPnP and RFC6887 (Port Control Protocol).

What I haven't heard any comments in on the SECDISPATCH point of view about
what to do with this document.    Have the SECDISPATCH chairs put it on the
agenda, or is there any agreement that maybe IOTOPS should dispatch it?

Hannes: what do you think?


=2D-
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide





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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
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To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
Cc: "secdispatch@ietf.org" <secdispatch@ietf.org>, Jim Zubov <ietf-list@commercebyte.com>,  Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "iotops@ietf.org" <iotops@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Anima] [Secdispatch] I-D: Deploying Publicly Trusted TLS Servers on IoT Devices Using SNI-based End-to-End TLS Forwarding (SNIF)
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On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 11:44 AM Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
wrote:

>
> Jim Zubov <ietf-list@commercebyte.com> wrote:
>     > I just want to emphasize once again that the relay is end to end TL=
S.
>     > There are some IoT management solutions on the market, both open
> source
>     > and proprietary, but as far as I can tell none of them fully follow=
s
>     > the end to end paradigm. I believe it's worth having a universal
>     > cross-vendor solution that handles SNIF device onboarding, maintain=
s
>     > the credentials in a local secure storage, and consolidates https
> based
>     > management interface hosted by individual devices through SNIF.
>
> Even if SNIF winds up "just" being a standardized way to call-home, I thi=
nk
> that has value.    I think that some text needs to be added contrasting
> SNIF
> to UPnP and RFC6887 (Port Control Protocol).
>
> What I haven't heard any comments in on the SECDISPATCH point of view abo=
ut
> what to do with this document.


I provided some comments at the end of my review. Briefly, I have doubts
that this
is the best technical approach and so I think if we are to work on this
problem
we should start by working out the problem statement and requirements first=
.


  Have the SECDISPATCH chairs put it on the
> agenda,


I think putting it on the SECDISPATCH agenda would be appropriate



> or is there any agreement that maybe IOTOPS should dispatch it?
>

I think that would be a bad idea. There's nothing really IoT-specific here.

-Ekr



> Hannes: what do you think?
>
>
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consul=
ting )
>            Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Anima mailing list
> Anima@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 11:44 AM Micha=
el Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2Bietf@sandelman.ca">mcr+ietf@sande=
lman.ca</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><br>
Jim Zubov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-list@commercebyte.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">ietf-list@commercebyte.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; I just want to emphasize once again that the relay is en=
d to end TLS.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; There are some IoT management solutions on the market, b=
oth open source<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; and proprietary, but as far as I can tell none of them f=
ully follows<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; the end to end paradigm. I believe it&#39;s worth having=
 a universal<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; cross-vendor solution that handles SNIF device onboardin=
g, maintains<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; the credentials in a local secure storage, and consolida=
tes https based<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; management interface hosted by individual devices throug=
h SNIF.<br>
<br>
Even if SNIF winds up &quot;just&quot; being a standardized way to call-hom=
e, I think<br>
that has value.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think that some text needs to be added contr=
asting SNIF<br>
to UPnP and RFC6887 (Port Control Protocol).<br>
<br>
What I haven&#39;t heard any comments in on the SECDISPATCH point of view a=
bout<br>
what to do with this document.=C2=A0</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I prov=
ided some comments at the end of my review. Briefly, I have doubts that thi=
s</div><div>is the best technical approach and so I think if we are to work=
 on this problem</div><div>we should start by working out the problem state=
ment and requirements first.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> =C2=A0 Have the SECDISPATCH chairs =
put it on the<br>
agenda,</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think putting it on the SECDISPAT=
CH agenda would be appropriate</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0<br></div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> or is there any agreement t=
hat maybe IOTOPS should dispatch it?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I =
think that would be a bad idea. There&#39;s nothing really IoT-specific her=
e.</div><div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Hannes: what do you think?<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2BIETF@sandelman.ca" target=3D=
"_blank">mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0. o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T co=
nsulting )<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sandelman Software Works Inc, Otta=
wa and Worldwide<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Anima mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Anima@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Anima@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
cc: Jim Zubov <ietf-list@commercebyte.com>, "secdispatch\@ietf.org" <secdispatch@ietf.org>, "iotops\@ietf.org" <iotops@ietf.org>, "anima\@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Secdispatch] I-D: Deploying Publicly Trusted TLS Servers on IoT Devices Using SNI-based End-to-End TLS Forwarding (SNIF)
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Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
    > Based on what you wrote below I was actually wondering if the use of
    > TLS or DTLS at the application layer wouldn=E2=80=99t even be a better

It took me a few moments to realize you meant ATLAS.
There is also, now, oblivious HTTP/TLS.

=2D-
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide





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From: Jim Zubov <ietf-list@commercebyte.com>
To: secdispatch@ietf.org, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/iotops/D5GqVa5gEKoDpZbeiieBPvZx6k0>
Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Secdispatch] I-D: Deploying Publicly Trusted TLS Servers on IoT Devices Using SNI-based End-to-End TLS Forwarding (SNIF)
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 charset=utf-8
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I agree with Hannes that a pre-existing relay infrastructure can be used to=
 tunnel TLS in place of SNIF relay=2E The CA proxy is still needed to maint=
ain the cert=2E

As per Eric Rescorla's arguments, i can also envision a possibility to upg=
rade an established SNIF control socket to MASQUE over H2, or to use MASQUE=
 over QUIC as an alternative=2E However I still don't see any added value i=
n doing so, opposed to multiple added complications, as I don't see a pract=
ical case with a large number of concurrent SNIF service connections=2E
If anybody has a different opinion please chime in=2E

On March 5, 2022 3:15:27 PM EST, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman=2E=
ca> wrote:
>
>Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes=2ETschofenig@arm=2Ecom> wrote:
>    > Based on what you wrote below I was actually wondering if the use o=
f
>    > TLS or DTLS at the application layer wouldn=E2=80=99t even be a bet=
ter
>
>It took me a few moments to realize you meant ATLAS=2E
>There is also, now, oblivious HTTP/TLS=2E
>
>--
>Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman=2Eca>   =2E o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T co=
nsulting )
>           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide
>
>
>
>

------LI0I12QGORW6V91BMZIZHG09AW0CJ6
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<html><head></head><body>I agree with Hannes that a pre-existing relay infr=
astructure can be used to tunnel TLS in place of SNIF relay=2E The CA proxy=
 is still needed to maintain the cert=2E<br><br>As per Eric Rescorla's argu=
ments, i can also envision a possibility to upgrade an established SNIF con=
trol socket to MASQUE over H2, or to use MASQUE over QUIC as an alternative=
=2E However I still don't see any added value in doing so, opposed to multi=
ple added complications, as I don't see a practical case with a large numbe=
r of concurrent SNIF service connections=2E<br>If anybody has a different o=
pinion please chime in=2E<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On March 5, 202=
2 3:15:27 PM EST, Michael Richardson &lt;mcr+ietf@sandelman=2Eca&gt; wrote:=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0=2E8ex; bor=
der-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<pre dir=3D"auto" class=3D"k9mail"><br>Hannes Tschofenig &lt;Hannes=2ETsch=
ofenig@arm=2Ecom&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0=2E8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1=
ex;">Based on what you wrote below I was actually wondering if the use of<b=
r>TLS or DTLS at the application layer wouldn=E2=80=99t even be a better<br=
></blockquote><br>It took me a few moments to realize you meant ATLAS=2E<br=
>There is also, now, oblivious HTTP/TLS=2E<br><br>--<br>Michael Richardson =
&lt;mcr+IETF@sandelman=2Eca&gt;   =2E o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulting )<br> =
          Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide<br><br><br><br=
><br></pre></blockquote></div></body></html>
------LI0I12QGORW6V91BMZIZHG09AW0CJ6--


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Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Anima] [Secdispatch] I-D: Deploying Publicly Trusted TLS Servers on IoT Devices Using SNI-based End-to-End TLS Forwarding (SNIF)
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--=-=-=
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Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
    > I provided some comments at the end of my review. Briefly, I have dou=
bts
    > that this
    > is the best technical approach and so I think if we are to work on th=
is
    > problem
    > we should start by working out the problem statement and requirements=
 first.

I would agree with you.

In particular,  I think that UPnP or PCP, in combination with some kind
of dynamic DNS infrastructure, could do everything SNIF does, and do it in a
far more decentralized fashion.

So what is it that SNIF does that is truly different?

    >> Have the SECDISPATCH chairs put it on the
    >> agenda,

    > I think putting it on the SECDISPATCH agenda would be appropriate

Good.

    >> or is there any agreement that maybe IOTOPS should dispatch it?

    > I think that would be a bad idea. There's nothing really IoT-specific=
 here.

There is often nothing IoT specific about many things.
There is however a community of people who understand the set of tradeoff in
deploying systems at large scale that have no human at the helm.

=2D-
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide





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To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
Cc: "secdispatch@ietf.org" <secdispatch@ietf.org>, Jim Zubov <ietf-list@commercebyte.com>,  Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "iotops@ietf.org" <iotops@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Anima] [Secdispatch] I-D: Deploying Publicly Trusted TLS Servers on IoT Devices Using SNI-based End-to-End TLS Forwarding (SNIF)
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On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 2:27 PM Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
wrote:

>
> Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
>     >> or is there any agreement that maybe IOTOPS should dispatch it?
>
>     > I think that would be a bad idea. There's nothing really
> IoT-specific here.
>
> There is often nothing IoT specific about many things.
> There is however a community of people who understand the set of tradeoff
> in
> deploying systems at large scale that have no human at the helm.
>

I think it would be fine to consult IOTOPs. I'm merely saying that I don't
think it's
a good idea to have them dispatch something that is so obviously generic.

-Ekr

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 2:27 PM Michae=
l Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2Bietf@sandelman.ca">mcr+ietf@sandel=
man.ca</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex"><br>
Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtf=
m.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; or is there any agreement that maybe IOTOPS should d=
ispatch it?<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; I think that would be a bad idea. There&#39;s nothing re=
ally IoT-specific here.<br>
<br>
There is often nothing IoT specific about many things.<br>
There is however a community of people who understand the set of tradeoff i=
n<br>
deploying systems at large scale that have no human at the helm.<br></block=
quote><div><br></div><div>I think it would be fine to consult IOTOPs. I&#39=
;m merely saying that I don&#39;t think it&#39;s</div><div>a good idea to h=
ave them dispatch something that is so obviously generic.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>-Ekr</div></div></div>

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From: Kiran M <kiran.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Iotops] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-km-iotops-iiot-frwk-02.txt
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Hi Iotops,

As you know I have been studying several aspects of industrial networks 
to improve interoperability through use of standard 
protocols/technologies. We have put our thoughts on virtualization of 
PLCs, how they could be better than conventional ones and what could be 
their potential impact on the traditional industrial network designs.

I look forward to feedback and discussion on the topic to improve it 
further.

Thanks
Kiran
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* internet-drafts@ietf.org
*Sent:* Saturday, March 5, 2022, 9:52 PM
*To:* Kiran Makhijani; Lijun Dong
*Subject:* New Version Notification for draft-km-iotops-iiot-frwk-02.txt

A new version of I-D, draft-km-iotops-iiot-frwk-02.txt
has been successfully submitted by Kiran Makhijani and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name: draft-km-iotops-iiot-frwk
Revision: 02
Title: Virtualization of PLC in Industrial Networks - Problem Statement
Document date: 2022-03-05
Group: Individual Submission
Pages: 22
URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-km-iotops-iiot-frwk-02.txt
Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-km-iotops-iiot-frwk/
Html: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-km-iotops-iiot-frwk-02.html
Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-km-iotops-iiot-frwk
Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-km-iotops-iiot-frwk-02

Abstract:
Conventional Programmable Logic Controllers (PLCs) impose several
challenges on factory floors as their numbers and size on the factory
floors/plants continues to grow. Virtualized PLCs can help overcome
many of those concerns. They can improve the automation in Industry
control networks by simplifying communication between higher-level
applications and low-level factory floor machine operations. Virtual
PLCs provide an opportunity to integrate a diverse set of non-
internet protocols supporting Industrial-IoT and IP connections to
improve coordination between applications and field devices. Besides
automation, virtual PLCs also enhance programmability in industry
process control systems by abstracting control functions from I/O
modules. However, to achieve desired outcome and benefits, both
operational and application networks should evolve.

This document introduces virtual PLC concept, describes the details
and benefits of virtualized PLCs, then focuses on the problem
statement and requirements.



The IETF Secretariat


-- 
Cheers,
Kiran

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<html>
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    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    <p><font face="monospace">Hi Iotops,</font></p>
    <p><font face="monospace">As you know I have been studying several
        aspects of industrial networks to improve interoperability
        through use of standard protocols/technologies. We have put our
        thoughts on virtualization of PLCs, how they could be better
        than conventional ones and what could be their potential impact
        on the traditional industrial network designs. <br>
      </font></p>
    <p><font face="monospace"> I look forward to feedback and discussion
        on the topic to improve it further.</font></p>
    <font face="monospace">Thanks</font><br>
    <font face="monospace">Kiran</font><br>
    <div class="moz-forward-container">
      <div id="rwhMsgHeader">
        <hr id="rwhMsgHdrDivider" style="border:0;border-top:1px solid
          #B5C4DF;padding:0;margin:10px 0 5px 0;width:100%;">
        <div style="font-family:Tahoma !important; color:#000000
          !important; font-size:13px !important;"><b>From:</b>
          <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a></div>
        <div style="font-family:Tahoma !important; color:#000000
          !important; font-size:13px !important;"><b>Sent:</b> Saturday,
          March 5, 2022, 9:52 PM</div>
        <div style="font-family:Tahoma !important; color:#000000
          !important; font-size:13px !important;"><b>To:</b> Kiran
          Makhijani; Lijun Dong</div>
        <div style="font-family:Tahoma !important; color:#000000
          !important; font-size:13px !important;"><b>Subject:</b> New
          Version Notification for draft-km-iotops-iiot-frwk-02.txt</div>
        <br>
      </div>
      A new version of I-D, draft-km-iotops-iiot-frwk-02.txt<br>
      has been successfully submitted by Kiran Makhijani and posted to
      the<br>
      IETF repository.<br>
      <br>
      Name: draft-km-iotops-iiot-frwk<br>
      Revision: 02<br>
      Title: Virtualization of PLC in Industrial Networks - Problem
      Statement<br>
      Document date: 2022-03-05<br>
      Group: Individual Submission<br>
      Pages: 22<br>
      URL:
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-km-iotops-iiot-frwk-02.txt">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-km-iotops-iiot-frwk-02.txt</a><br>
      Status:
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-km-iotops-iiot-frwk/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-km-iotops-iiot-frwk/</a><br>
      Html:
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-km-iotops-iiot-frwk-02.html">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-km-iotops-iiot-frwk-02.html</a><br>
      Htmlized:
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-km-iotops-iiot-frwk">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-km-iotops-iiot-frwk</a><br>
      Diff:
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-km-iotops-iiot-frwk-02">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-km-iotops-iiot-frwk-02</a><br>
      <br>
      Abstract:<br>
      Conventional Programmable Logic Controllers (PLCs) impose several<br>
      challenges on factory floors as their numbers and size on the
      factory<br>
      floors/plants continues to grow. Virtualized PLCs can help
      overcome<br>
      many of those concerns. They can improve the automation in
      Industry<br>
      control networks by simplifying communication between higher-level<br>
      applications and low-level factory floor machine operations.
      Virtual<br>
      PLCs provide an opportunity to integrate a diverse set of non-<br>
      internet protocols supporting Industrial-IoT and IP connections to<br>
      improve coordination between applications and field devices.
      Besides<br>
      automation, virtual PLCs also enhance programmability in industry<br>
      process control systems by abstracting control functions from I/O<br>
      modules. However, to achieve desired outcome and benefits, both<br>
      operational and application networks should evolve.<br>
      <br>
      This document introduces virtual PLC concept, describes the
      details<br>
      and benefits of virtualized PLCs, then focuses on the problem<br>
      statement and requirements.<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      The IETF Secretariat<br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </div>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Cheers,
Kiran</pre>
  </body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: [Iotops] [Secdispatch] [Anima] I-D: Deploying Publicly Trusted TLS Servers on IoT Devices Using SNI-based End-to-End TLS Forwarding (SNIF)
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On March 5, 2022 5:27:48 PM EST, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman=2E=
ca> wrote:
>
>Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm=2Ecom> wrote:
>    > I provided some comments at the end of my review=2E Briefly, I have=
 doubts
>    > that this
>    > is the best technical approach and so I think if we are to work on =
this
>    > problem
>    > we should start by working out the problem statement and requiremen=
ts first=2E
>
>I would agree with you=2E
>
>In particular,  I think that UPnP or PCP, in combination with some kind
>of dynamic DNS infrastructure, could do everything SNIF does, and do it i=
n a
>far more decentralized fashion=2E
>
>So what is it that SNIF does that is truly different?


I had a discussion with Eric about it=2E

SNIF can work for an IoT device behind NAT or firewall through the relay=
=2E For IoT devices that have a clean static IP it's possible to use DDNS t=
o directly connect to the device instead of the relay (not described in my =
draft but is fairly easy to implement through a peripheral process)=2E

Regarding the certs, a CA, for example Let's Encrypt, operates in terms of=
 a 'Registered Domain', e=2Eg=2E something=2Ecom, that you purchase from a =
TLD=2E Registered domains are not free, hence having a unique registered do=
main per an IoT device is not affordable - even if it's $2/yr nobody's goin=
g to eat that cost, and very few IoT end users will be willing to set up th=
eir own additional billing=2E
Therefore, hostnames for individual IoT devices should be subdomains of a =
certain registered domain=2E Since a CA sets limits on API calls within eac=
h registered domain, if you allow IoT devices to randomly interact with the=
 CA you set yourself on a path to a DoS=2E So, having a CA proxy that maint=
ains control over the DNS zone and interacts with the CA (without having ac=
cess to anybody's private keys) while enforcing anti-abuse policies sounds =
like a good solution=2E
As for the security risk, it lies in the CA challenge=2E Having a DDNS ser=
ver for a zone poses same risk as a CA proxy that has sole control over a D=
NS zone, with additional headaches and risks of DDNS authentication for eac=
h IoT device=2E
If anybody disagrees or has something to add - please chime in=2E


>
>    >> Have the SECDISPATCH chairs put it on the
>    >> agenda,
>
>    > I think putting it on the SECDISPATCH agenda would be appropriate
>
>Good=2E
>
>    >> or is there any agreement that maybe IOTOPS should dispatch it?
>
>    > I think that would be a bad idea=2E There's nothing really IoT-spec=
ific here=2E
>
>There is often nothing IoT specific about many things=2E
>There is however a community of people who understand the set of tradeoff=
 in
>deploying systems at large scale that have no human at the helm=2E
>
>--
>Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman=2Eca>   =2E o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T co=
nsulting )
>           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide
>
>
>
>


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To: Jim Zubov <ietf-list@commercebyte.com>, secdispatch@ietf.org, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "iotops@ietf.org" <iotops@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Iotops] ***SPAM**** Re: [Secdispatch] [Anima] I-D: Deploying Publicly Trusted TLS Servers on IoT Devices Using SNI-based End-to-End TLS Forwarding (SNIF)
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From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
To: Jim Zubov <ietf-list@commercebyte.com>, secdispatch@ietf.org,
 Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>,
 Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>,
 "anima@ietf.org" <anima@ietf.org>, "iotops@ietf.org" <iotops@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <d5fc64a9-9d4a-8f8b-03fd-cde8d4125648@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: ***SPAM**** Re: [Secdispatch] [Anima] [Iotops] I-D: Deploying
 Publicly Trusted TLS Servers on IoT Devices Using SNI-based End-to-End TLS
 Forwarding (SNIF)
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From nobody Wed Mar 23 07:08:57 2022
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Subject: [Iotops] IOTOPS slides are expected by the end of today (Vienna time)
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Hi,

A reminder to all presenters that all your slides should be sent to 
chairs <iotops-chairs@ietf.org> by the end of today. If you don't send 
chairs slides by the end of today, chairs reserve the right to deny you 
the right to present tomorrow.

Best Regards,

Alexey


From nobody Thu Mar 24 12:49:33 2022
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Hi all,
I realized my responses to the comments could have been  better:

1. Henk's: on the volume of work involved:
     IMHO,  this is due to missing pieces such as a common reference 
framework or a model for such conversations. The document highlights 
problems from an operator's view, i.e. "what will it take to realize 
virtual PLCs?" This does not mean that IETF solutions are not available 
already, had hinted at SFC & Detnet possibilities. The next step would 
be to show how these methods apply and where the potential gaps are? 
More converged the IT/OT get, higher the likelihood of using protocols 
developed here.

I mentioned common interface between virtual PLC and I/O was the place 
to solve the problem of many protocol formats.


2. On detnet status:
I should clarify that I meant to say Detnet connects (not over) TSNs.  
It could be used for edge to factory site connectivity. Detnet dataplane 
is in RFCs 9024, 9025, 9037. More importantly, the document's focus is 
on other aspects of industrial networking and would reuse Detnet when 
possible.

3. On vendor PLCs:
The document did not dwell in to commodity hardware, it's focus is on 
abstraction and dis-aggregation. Same vendors could utilize standard 
methods with their own platforms to start with.

Even though there is specific interest on converging OT protocols, 
background context should be established too. Therefore, it will be 
useful to have an active discussion here on the list.

Cheers,
Kiran


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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


I read draft-ietf-uta-tls13-iot-profile-04 today.
Thank you Hannes for presenting it at IOTOPS.  To be, it is precisely this
kind of thing that IOTOPS was created for.

1) I feel that the 4.25 Too Early allocation for CoAP could use a bit more
   explanation, and probably there needs to be some more clear review at CORE.
   (maybe it already happened and I missed it?)
   Reading through the lines, it appears that a server that can't handle
   early data needs to send an error code.  But such a server probably
   doesn't know about the error code.  I would have thought it should just
   hang on to the data until the (D)TLS negotiation is complete.
   I'm also concerned that this requires too much cross-layer communication
   between DTLS layer and CoAP layer.

2) A long thread at LAMPS two years suggests that the term "Intermediate CA"
   applies only to cross-certification authoritiy bridges, and the term
   "Subordinate CA" should be used.  That this is consistent with history
   going back to RFC4949.

3) While section 10 on SNI does not say *how* to use DoH or DPRIVE to provide
   for confidentiality of names that are looked up, a naive use of DoH with
   Google/Cloudflare/etc. by IoT devices would be a problem for almost all
   enterprises that wish to filter the DNS used by IoT devices, and to use
   DNS canaries to identify malware.

Given that such an involved discussion is not in scope for this document,
it might be better just to refer to the ADD WG without mentioning specific
solutions.
I am, in general, not convinced that encrypted SNI serves any purpose for
most IoT devices.

4) section 15
   There is much discussion about what goes into the certificates.
   I didn't really understand why that is in this document.
   Validation of server certificates is well covered in RFC6125, I think.

Validation of client certificates (whether factory provisioned IDevIDs, or
locally enrolled LDevIDs) is a topic that I care a lot about, and
this text is inadequate.

As the (industrial) IoT market embraces IDevID certificates, there is some
concern that different markets will put different requirements on IDevID
contents.  So far it does not appear that anyone has created a situation
where a single (fat) IDevID certificate couldn't be used in a variety of
market verticals, the concern remains.

It was my intention to introduce a document about this issue. I think that
it's something that only the IETF can do.  Perhaps that would fit into this
UTA document, or perhaps parts of this section 15 goes into another document.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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--000000000000d7d52305db5b8ed1
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Hi guys,

I'm sending this email with an honest question about the minimum requisites
for allowing a draft update.

Well, everyone knows that, when there is no more talk about one draft, it
might not be updated. But the point for me is: what about it received only
one or two comments? How much "not humming" is necessary for one draft to
be discontinued?

Furthermore, after the answer to this question (or discussion about that),
I would like to bring one concrete case to the table. In the past November,
I've submitted a draft [1] and received only one comment on this list with
a few suggestions for typo corrections.

Therefore, as the draft's expiration is approaching, I have doubts if I can
update it based on those comments.

[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morais-iotops-inxu/

--
Regards,
S=C3=A1vyo Morais

--000000000000d7d52305db5b8ed1
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi guys,<div><br></div><div>I&#39;m sending this email wit=
h an honest question about the minimum requisites for allowing a draft upda=
te.</div><div><br></div><div>Well, everyone knows that, when there is no mo=
re talk about one draft, it might not be updated. But the point for me is: =
what about it received only one or two comments? How much &quot;not humming=
&quot; is necessary for one draft to be discontinued?</div><div><br></div><=
div>Furthermore, after the answer=C2=A0to this question (or discussion abou=
t that), I would like to bring one concrete case to the table. In the past =
November, I&#39;ve submitted a draft [1] and received only one comment on t=
his list=C2=A0with a few suggestions for typo corrections.</div><div><br></=
div><div>Therefore, as the draft&#39;s expiration is approaching, I have do=
ubts if I can update it based on those comments.</div><div><br></div><div>[=
1]=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morais-iotops-inx=
u/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morais-iotops-inxu/</a><br></div=
><div><br></div><div>--</div><div>Regards,</div><div>S=C3=A1vyo Morais</div=
></div>

--000000000000d7d52305db5b8ed1--


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S=C3=A1vyo,

I skimmed the referenced draft along with RFC 8250, since I wasn't =
familiar with that work...  My $0.02 CAD is that if MUDs are being =
implemented by vendors then MTDs would be a useful addition.  But in the =
printer world we've only been talking about TNC and EAP for securing =
enterprise networks...


> On Mar 29, 2022, at 9:39 AM, S=C3=A1vyo Morais <savyovm@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi guys,
>=20
> I'm sending this email with an honest question about the minimum =
requisites for allowing a draft update.
>=20
> Well, everyone knows that, when there is no more talk about one draft, =
it might not be updated. But the point for me is: what about it received =
only one or two comments? How much "not humming" is necessary for one =
draft to be discontinued?
>=20
> Furthermore, after the answer to this question (or discussion about =
that), I would like to bring one concrete case to the table. In the past =
November, I've submitted a draft [1] and received only one comment on =
this list with a few suggestions for typo corrections.
>=20
> Therefore, as the draft's expiration is approaching, I have doubts if =
I can update it based on those comments.
>=20
> [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morais-iotops-inxu/
>=20
> --
> Regards,
> S=C3=A1vyo Morais
> --
> Iotops mailing list
> Iotops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iotops

________________________
Michael Sweet




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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


    >> Well, everyone knows that, when there is no more talk about one draft,
    >> it might not be updated. But the point for me is: what about it received
    >> only one or two comments? How much "not humming" is necessary for one
    >> draft to be discontinued?

In general, anyone may call for a draft to be adopted by a WG.
(In practice, it is usually done by the WG chairs)

The job of the WG chairs is to judge consensus on whether or not the
document:
  a) fits into the WG charter
  b) is supported by some rough consensus of people
  c) whether there are IPR restrictions that might affect publication

RFC7221 discusses some of this, and there was an rfc7221bis to further
clarify that.

IOTOPS is unusual in that it doesn't have a mandate to process protocol
documents.   The INXU document would have to be adopted in the OPSAWG group,
which is where MUD extensions are being sent.  It is not coincidence that
OPSAWG and IOTOPS have a chair in common...
It might be that the DOTS WG would be a better place.
This would be a topic that needs discussion.

My feeling is that we need some solution in this space, but I'm not (yet)
convinced that your solution is the right one.

In general, you should probably repost/edit your draft until such time as it
gets adopted or there is rough consensus that it's a bad idea.

Michael Sweet <msweet=40msweet.org@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
    > I skimmed the referenced draft along with RFC 8250, since I wasn't
    > familiar with that work...  My $0.02 CAD is that if MUDs are being
    > implemented by vendors then MTDs would be a useful addition.  But in
    > the printer world we've only been talking about TNC and EAP for
    > securing enterprise networks...

the problem is that todate, MUDs are not being implemented en mass by
vendors.  There is a chicken and egg problem, and there still needs to be
some strategic decisions to make it work out.

--
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh networks [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        |    IoT architect   [
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails    [




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