From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Fri Jul 01 07:16:21 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoJVN-0008KA-Gh for ipdvb-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 07:16:21 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA07778 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 07:16:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DoJvI-0003cj-JZ for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 07:43:11 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j61AlaYM017202 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:47:36 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id j61AlaKY017201 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:47:36 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (gresley.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.207.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j61AkQxO017159 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:46:28 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <42C51F02.4070204@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:46:26 +0100 From: Gorry Fairhurst Organization: Univesrity of Aberdeen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: Re: Updated draft about address configuration in IPDVB References: <4D6E5FF2B7FCED0506662045@753F3B888A9969457862729D> In-Reply-To: <4D6E5FF2B7FCED0506662045@753F3B888A9969457862729D> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Martin. I've uploaded this also to: http://www.erg.abdn.ac.uk/ip-dvb/ids/ Gorry (ipdvb WG Chair) Martin Stiemerling wrote: > Hi all, > > I have submitted an updated version of the > "Problem Statement: IP Address Configuration for IPDVB" > (draft-stiemerling-ipdvb-config-01.txt) to the I-D repository. > > You can find the draft at this location before it will appear in > the I-D repository: > > > A html version is available here > > > and a diff version between the -00 and -01 is available here too > > > > Regards, > > Martin Stiemerling > > NEC Europe Ltd. -- Network Laboratories stiemerling@netlab.nec.de > PGP Key at: http://www.stiemerling.org/stiemerling_nec.gpg > WWW: http://www.netlab.nec. > de From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Fri Jul 01 07:25:24 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DoJe8-0002PQ-Hp for ipdvb-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 07:25:24 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA08947 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 07:25:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DoK45-0004C5-Ka for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 07:52:14 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j61AtC4g017437 for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:55:12 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id j61AtCPe017436 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:55:12 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (gresley.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.207.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j61ArkF0017383 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:53:47 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <42C520BA.5070606@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:53:46 +0100 From: Gorry Fairhurst Organization: Univesrity of Aberdeen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ipdvb-ule-06.txt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9a2be21919e71dc6faef12b370c4ecf5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear WG, The ULE draft is still in IESG review, although we hope to complete this process soon. Most issues have now been addressed. A new I-D was announced that addresses most concerns and corrections of the IESG. Please do note the slight change of the documemt title. Specifically this new I-D addresses: * Brian Carpenter's issues using revised language. * Issues from the gen-ART review by Michael Patton. * Bert Wijnen's issue regarding the worked example IPv6 addresses. * A mistake in Figure 2 (32 bit aligned number shoudkl have been 16-bit) * Revised references * Updated IANA section following the review. * New first paragraph linking the spec to the earlier requirements (in RFC Ed queue). It's good to explain where things come from. * Title change: "Unidirectional Lightweight Encapsulation (ULE) for transmission of IP datagrams over an MPEG-2 Transport Stream" The last change is the most significant, and was a result of detailed discussion within the IESG where it was thought that new name more accurately reflected the position of the document within the RFC-series. Since the acronym and title are sufficiently similar to previous ones, the authors believe this would not orphan the RFC from the body of existing work (in Linux kernel, commercial drivers, published papers, and mail thread discussions). I believe this is also an important issue. Should you wish to see it, the diff file is at: http://www.erg.abdn.ac.uk/ip-dvb/ids/rfcdiff-ule-06-05.html Best wishes, Gorry Fairhurst (ipdvb WG Chair) ---- A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP over DVB Working Group of the IETF. Title : Unidirectional Lightweight Encapsulation (ULE) for transmission of IP datagrams over an MPEG-2 Transport Stream Author(s) : G. Fairhurst, B. Collini-Nocker Filename : draft-ietf-ipdvb-ule-06.txt Pages : 49 Date : 2005-6-22 The MPEG-2 Transport Stream (TS) has been widely accepted not only for providing digital TV services, but also as a subnetwork technology for building IP networks. This document describes a Unidirectional Lightweight Encapsulation (ULE) mechanism for the transport of IPv4 and IPv6 Datagrams and other network protocol packets directly over the ISO MPEG-2 Transport Stream as TS Private Data. ULE specifies a base encapsulation format and supports an extension format that allows it to carry additional header information to assist in network/Receiver processing. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipdvb-ule-06.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-ipdvb-ule-06.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv at ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipdvb-ule-06.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. 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Cruickshank=20 Lecturer=20 Communications Centre for Communication Systems Research (CCSR)=20 School of Electronics, Computing and Mathematics=20 University of Surrey, Guildford, Surrey GU2 7XH, UK=20 =20 Tel: +44 1483 686007 (indirect 689844)=20 Fax: +44 1483 686011=20 e-mail: H.Cruickshank@surrey.ac.uk=20 http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/H.Cruickshank/=20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C58173.3E4AAE92 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear ipdvb WG= =20 members,
 
Further to Gorry's announcement of this security ID=20 (draft-cruickshank-ipdvb-sec-00.txt,) a slot has been allocated at the Pari= s=20 IETF in August, and we (the authors) would like to progress this as an IETF= work=20 item.
 
For a copy see: http://www.erg.abdn.ac.uk/ip-dvb/ids/draft-cruickshank-ipdvb-sec-00.t= xt),=20
 
Do people have any comments on what has been proposed or are= there=20 specific issues that need to be addressed by this draft?
 
 
Haitham
 
----
Dr. H= aitham S.=20 Cruickshank
Lectu= rer=20
Commu= nications=20 Centre for Communication Systems Research (CCSR)
Schoo= l of=20 Electronics, Computing and Mathematics
University of=20 Surrey, Guildford,=20 Surrey GU2 7XH,=20 UK
 
Tel: = +44 1483=20 686007 (indirect 689844)
Fax: = +44 1483=20 686011
e-mai= l: H.Cruickshank@surrey.ac.uk
http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/H.Cruickshank/=20

 
 
= ------_=_NextPart_001_01C58173.3E4AAE92-- From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Thu Jul 07 00:25:52 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DqNxP-0000Nx-RW for ipdvb-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 00:25:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA02700 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 00:25:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DqOOT-0003sN-20 for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 00:53:53 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j673ip7J014034 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 04:44:51 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id j673ip6i014033 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 04:44:51 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from thingmagic.com ([204.9.221.21]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j673iMpY014012 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 04:44:22 +0100 (BST) Received: from [24.52.170.51] (account margaret HELO [192.168.1.105]) by thingmagic.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP-TLS id 423832; Wed, 06 Jul 2005 23:38:41 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 23:41:45 -0400 To: int-area@ietf.org From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: NEW!! Internet Area Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d [This message is bcc:ed to all INT area WGs, the IESG and the IAB.] Hi All, We have created an Internet Area mailing list -- int-area@ietf.org. This list will be used to announce Internet area BOFs, to discuss Internet area WG charter updates and to discuss other issues related to the Internet Area, as they arise -- such as whether we should hold an Internet area meeting in Paris. If you wish to join the list, you can do so at: https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area The archives should be available at: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/int-area/index.html (Hopefully this will be the first message in the archive). If you are interested in issues concerning the overall structure or scope of the Internet area and/or are interested in influencing how the Internet area is managed, I hope you will join this list. Thanks, Margaret From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Thu Jul 07 04:41:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DqRwW-0004od-NW for ipdvb-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 04:41:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA12496 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 04:41:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DqSNd-0003sH-RI for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 05:09:16 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j678CTrL022448 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:12:29 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id j678CScF022447 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:12:28 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from kyoto.netlab.nec.de ([195.37.70.21]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6787EkL022239 for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:07:14 +0100 (BST) Received: from dialin-145-254-117-203.arcor-ip.net (mito.netlab.nec.de [195.37.70.39]) by kyoto.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EF831BAC4D for ; Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:07:03 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 10:07:01 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-stiemerling-ipdvb-config-01.txt (fwd) Message-ID: <816F0906C2F9DED2D9CDB24C@[10.1.1.109]> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="==========5C5B2725BE4342FC8801==========" X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b045c2b078f76b9f842d469de8a32de3 --==========5C5B2725BE4342FC8801========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------------ Forwarded Message ------------ Date: Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 15:50 Uhr -0400 From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-stiemerling-ipdvb-config-01.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Problem Statement: IP Address Configuration for IPDVB Author(s) : M. Stiemerling Filename : draft-stiemerling-ipdvb-config-01.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2005-7-5 Future IPDVB networks will require a more powerful IP address configuration management as it is currently provided in such networks. Current discussions within the IPDVB working group have shown that the future usage scenarios and requirements for dynamic configuration of IP addresses are not yet clear defined. This memo identifies the problem space for dynamic IP address configuration in IPDVB networks. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stiemerling-ipdvb-config-01.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-stiemerling-ipdvb-config-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-stiemerling-ipdvb-config-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. ---------- End Forwarded Message ---------- --==========5C5B2725BE4342FC8801========== Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="I-D ACTION:draft-stiemerling-ipdvb-config-01.txt " Received: from smtp0.netlab.nec.de ([10.1.1.15]) by europa.office with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:38:07 +0200 Received: by smtp0.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) id 87449DC4E; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:38:07 +0200 (CEST) Delivered-To: stiemerling@netlab.nec.de Received: by smtp0.netlab.nec.de (Postfix, from userid 502) id 7B7B510ECC; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:38:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from megatron.ietf.org (megatron.ietf.org [132.151.6.71]) by smtp0.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id C65C1DC4E for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:38:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=megatron.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dptf9-0004ay-JD; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:04:59 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dptem-0004Sz-Ax for i-d-announce@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:04:39 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA16510 for ; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:04:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [132.151.6.50] (helo=newodin.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1DptrW-0006BD-Hv for i-d-announce@ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:17:47 -0400 Received: from mlee by newodin.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1DptQf-000373-CR for i-d-announce@ietf.org; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 15:50:01 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 15:50:01 -0400 X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-stiemerling-ipdvb-config-01.txt X-BeenThere: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org List-Id: i-d-announce.ietf.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, MIME_BOUND_NEXTPART,NO_REAL_NAME,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=3.0.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.1 (2004-10-22) on atlas.office X-Spam-Level: X-Sanitizer: This message has been sanitized! Return-Path: i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Jul 2005 20:38:07.0636 (UTC) FILETIME=[736FED40:01C581A1] --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Problem Statement: IP Address Configuration for IPDVB Author(s) : M. Stiemerling Filename : draft-stiemerling-ipdvb-config-01.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2005-7-5 Future IPDVB networks will require a more powerful IP address configuration management as it is currently provided in such networks. Current discussions within the IPDVB working group have shown that the future usage scenarios and requirements for dynamic configuration of IP addresses are not yet clear defined. This memo identifies the problem space for dynamic IP address configuration in IPDVB networks. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stiemerling-ipdvb-config-01.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-stiemerling-ipdvb-config-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-stiemerling-ipdvb-config-01.txt". 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Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-7-5115751.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-stiemerling-ipdvb-config-01.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-stiemerling-ipdvb-config-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2005-7-5115751.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce --NextPart-- --==========5C5B2725BE4342FC8801==========-- From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Fri Jul 08 08:41:16 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DqsAO-0004Tb-JT for ipdvb-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 08 Jul 2005 08:41:16 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA27698 for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 08:41:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dqsbl-0003kH-P7 for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 08 Jul 2005 09:09:35 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j68Bx7G2006661 for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:59:07 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id j68Bx7ZQ006660 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:59:07 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from smtp0.netlab.nec.de (smtp0.netlab.nec.de [195.37.70.40]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j68Bw4uX006605 for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:58:04 +0100 (BST) Received: from europa.office (europa.office [10.1.1.2]) by smtp0.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7012FDC96 for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:57:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.1.1.109] ([10.1.1.109]) by europa.office over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:57:59 +0200 Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 13:57:58 +0200 From: Martin Stiemerling To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Message-ID: <9E358383C09E0E6362F46A6C@[10.1.1.109]> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jul 2005 11:57:59.0386 (UTC) FILETIME=[491C23A0:01C583B4] X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Subject: Re: Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Haitham, --On Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 16:07 Uhr +0100 "H.Cruickshank" wrote: | Dear ipdvb WG members, | | Further to Gorry's announcement of this security ID | (draft-cruickshank-ipdvb-sec-00.txt,) a slot has been allocated at the | Paris IETF in August, and we (the authors) would like to progress this as | an IETF work item. | | | For a copy see: | http://www.erg.abdn.ac.uk/ip-dvb/ids/draft-cruickshank-ipdvb-sec-00.txt), | | Do people have any comments on what has been proposed or are there | specific issues that need to be addressed by this draft? I have some ideas in my mind but currently short of time (IETF cut offs are coming closer). I will give my comments soon. Martin | | | | Haitham | | | | ---- | Dr. Haitham S. Cruickshank | Lecturer | Communications Centre for Communication Systems Research (CCSR) | School of Electronics, Computing and Mathematics | University of Surrey, Guildford, Surrey GU2 7XH, UK | | Tel: +44 1483 686007 (indirect 689844) | Fax: +44 1483 686011 | e-mail: H.Cruickshank@surrey.ac.uk | http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/H.Cruickshank/ | | | | | From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Fri Jul 08 10:38:20 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dqtzd-0008Bv-Rb for ipdvb-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 08 Jul 2005 10:38:20 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA07313 for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:38:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DquR1-0003aJ-LC for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 08 Jul 2005 11:06:37 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j68EAark009891 for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:10:36 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id j68EAZoI009890 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:10:36 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from mailg.surrey.ac.uk (mailg.surrey.ac.uk [131.227.102.21]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j68E9rcI009852 for ; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:09:53 +0100 (BST) Received: from ads40.surrey.ac.uk by mailg.surrey.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) with ESMTP; Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:08:28 +0100 Received: from EVS-EC1-NODE1.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.102.136]) by ads40.surrey.ac.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:08:26 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:08:26 +0100 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: RE: Thread-Index: AcWDuFYT0JQK+sPzROejKhI/DaOQtwADhebg From: "H.Cruickshank" To: ipdvb X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jul 2005 14:08:26.0575 (UTC) FILETIME=[827A65F0:01C583C6] X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by erg.abdn.ac.uk id j68EAYPw009887 Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Many thanks Martin, Haitham -- Dr. Haitham S. Cruickshank Lecturer Communications Centre for Communication Systems Research (CCSR) School of Electronics, Computing and Mathematics University of Surrey, Guildford, Surrey GU2 7XH, UK Tel: +44 1483 686007 (indirect 689844) Fax: +44 1483 686011 e-mail: H.Cruickshank@surrey.ac.uk http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/H.Cruickshank/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Martin Stiemerling Sent: 08 July 2005 12:58 To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: Re: Hi Haitham, --On Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 16:07 Uhr +0100 "H.Cruickshank" wrote: | Dear ipdvb WG members, | | Further to Gorry's announcement of this security ID | (draft-cruickshank-ipdvb-sec-00.txt,) a slot has been allocated at the | Paris IETF in August, and we (the authors) would like to progress this | as an IETF work item. | | | For a copy see: | http://www.erg.abdn.ac.uk/ip-dvb/ids/draft-cruickshank-ipdvb-sec-00.tx | t), | | Do people have any comments on what has been proposed or are there | specific issues that need to be addressed by this draft? I have some ideas in my mind but currently short of time (IETF cut offs are coming closer). I will give my comments soon. Martin | | | | Haitham | | | | ---- | Dr. Haitham S. Cruickshank | Lecturer | Communications Centre for Communication Systems Research (CCSR) School | of Electronics, Computing and Mathematics University of Surrey, | Guildford, Surrey GU2 7XH, UK | | Tel: +44 1483 686007 (indirect 689844) | Fax: +44 1483 686011 | e-mail: H.Cruickshank@surrey.ac.uk | http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/H.Cruickshank/ | | | | | From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Mon Jul 11 15:26:41 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Ds3vM-0000XH-Tz for ipdvb-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:26:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA14039 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:26:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ds4NO-0005aR-S2 for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:55:40 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6BIrkua006769 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:53:46 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id j6BIrjJB006767 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:53:45 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.177]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6BIqeE0006718 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:52:40 +0100 (BST) Received: from p5496B157.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.150.177.87] (helo=[192.168.178.2]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0ML29c-1Ds3OS180E-0002sd; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:52:40 +0200 Message-ID: <42D2BFCB.7060309@online.de> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:51:55 +0200 From: Frank Organization: DLR User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-cruickshank-ipdvb-sec-00.txt, "ULEsec" Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------060104030508020006060509" X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:3c03767231a58234e2a44945cd7de1c5 X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d70738b58489ee14fb507f541b784688 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060104030508020006060509 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by erg.abdn.ac.uk id j6BIrkua006769 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Haitham for the security extension draft. Most issues that we discussed in our SATNEX workshop are already adressed in the draft. I hope the "ULE-Sec" extension will become standard soon. Link-layer security is a valuable part of a "multiple layer security" solution, especially since upper layer security protocols are not used, not available or somehow incompatible (like end-to-end transport-mode IPsec together with TCP-split). Satellites definately need kind of a "wired equivalent privacy". And protection against traffic analysis is a very unique feature of this security layer. I attached a PDF about how the "ULE-Sec" subsystems could be structured. We discussed this already in our workshop. Looking at the DVB-RCS-Sec spec. there is much to improve. A control plane based on UDP messages would be easier to realize than closed L2 solutions. On the other hand, signalling on layer 2 would be closer to the receiver hardware and thus more secure in authentication (smartcard as in GSM/UMTS= ). IPsec, IKE, GSAKMP, MIKEY are a good "study examples", but surely need to be modified for the satellite L2 approach. What about re-using code from IKE implementations KAME (racoon) or Free S/WAN (Pluto)? At this opportunity, some problems of IPsec could be removed, like the "aggressive mode" or AH-only. The big benefit over IPsec is, that no tunnelling is required. IPsec transport mode would have to be end-to-end and can't be used just to secure the satellite link. At the workshop, Pauline Chan had the idea to integrate a billing system. Strong RSA/EC authentication with smardcards in the Satcom receivers would be a good base for a billing system. Fraud protection should be done in the Satcom terminals. Using UDP for key-exchange signalling in attached computers might be dangerous as the secret keys could be stolen. A closed terminal solution with L2 signalling directly linked to the smardcard reduces the intrusion risk dramatically. Some other ideas could be derived from the UMTS access security architecture. Anyway, I guess we still need lots of discussion to come to a high-end security solution for the satellite link. Regards, Frank -- Dipl.-Ing. Frank Hermanns Institut f=FCr Kommunikation und Navigation DLR - Deutsches Zentrum f=FCr Luft- und Raumfahrt D-82234 Wessling Tel: +49 8153 28-2899 Fax: +49 8153 28-2844 --------------060104030508020006060509 Content-Type: application/pdf; name="ule-sec arch.pdf" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ule-sec arch.pdf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 JVBERi0xLjUNJeLjz9MNCjEgMCBvYmo8PC9Db250ZW50cyAyIDAgUi9UeXBlL1BhZ2UvUGFy ZW50IDQzIDAgUi9NZWRpYUJveFswIDAgODQyIDU5NV0vUmVzb3VyY2VzIDUwIDAgUi9Hcm91 cDw8L0NTL0RldmljZVJHQi9JIHRydWUvUy9UcmFuc3BhcmVuY3k+Pi9TdHJ1Y3RQYXJlbnRz IDA+Pg1lbmRvYmoNMiAwIG9iajw8L0xlbmd0aCAzIDAgUi9GaWx0ZXIvRmxhdGVEZWNvZGU+ PnN0cmVhbQ0KeJztW+uKHbkR/n/gvIN+G3Ksu9RgDPZclg0Y4vVAXiC7ToI3EEPY14/uUlep 1D1jJ2wgmDFTPWpVqeqri6Rqzn67Xv7JOPsDv2nmtWRmM+G3rz+zP79i/7heOOM3n36+fr5e nL45Jri4Cfbr9aLkFp5n8gvLlNbh7S8sDRx/r6P+er388ipNG/799ENm/lv4+SMT7O/Xi+Ty pvKbvxZ+s2kWrIcZvlwvgd+n6+Xj9fL6T+zNG/b6w92P94Hb27fs/f1d5h7/xcW9f7pe4oyO 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owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Wed Jul 13 07:39:23 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DsfaC-0002h5-Pf for ipdvb-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:39:23 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA28061 for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:39:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dsg2a-0004dZ-Jm for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:08:42 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6DAhRjx021832 for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:43:27 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id j6DAhRbO021831 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:43:27 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from mailg.surrey.ac.uk (mailg.surrey.ac.uk [131.227.102.21]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j6DAesXM021728 for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:40:54 +0100 (BST) Received: from ads33.surrey.ac.uk by mailg.surrey.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) with ESMTP; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:37:39 +0100 Received: from EVS-EC1-NODE1.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.102.136]) by ads33.surrey.ac.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:37:38 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-cruickshank-ipdvb-sec-00.txt, "ULEsec" Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:37:38 +0100 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-cruickshank-ipdvb-sec-00.txt, "ULEsec" Thread-Index: AcWGS+3GKrTyOoReSI+ityurE5LCrgBSUfaQ From: "H.Cruickshank" To: ipdvb X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jul 2005 10:37:38.0562 (UTC) FILETIME=[E3BD8620:01C58796] X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by erg.abdn.ac.uk id j6DAhPfE021828 Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Frank, Many thanks for your email and idea. However let me clarify few points: * The ipdvb security ID is focused on ULE message encryption and optional authentication. * We do not address specific key management protocols here. However, key management protocols such as GDOI and GSAKMP are good candidates although other non-IETF protocols can be used as well. * Please in the future make specific comments on this draft such the idea of having ULE header extensions for security, ULE MAC address hiding using unique security ID (like the SPI in IPsec) with or without temporary MAC address and the general requirements for ULE encryption . Many thanks again for your comments. -- Dr. Haitham S. Cruickshank Lecturer Communications Centre for Communication Systems Research (CCSR) School of Electronics, Computing and Mathematics University of Surrey, Guildford, Surrey GU2 7XH, UK Tel: +44 1483 686007 (indirect 689844) Fax: +44 1483 686011 e-mail: H.Cruickshank@surrey.ac.uk http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/H.Cruickshank/ From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Thu Jul 14 13:35:36 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dt7cW-0004QM-6n for ipdvb-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:35:36 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA02284 for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:35:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Dt859-0003Xm-Nq for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:05:13 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6EGuMJ0001143 for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:56:22 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id j6EGuMef001142 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:56:22 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.171]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6EGsoVV001089 for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 17:54:51 +0100 (BST) Received: from p5496B21B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.150.178.27] (helo=[192.168.178.2]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0MKxQS-1Dt6z503Q2-0003yj; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:54:51 +0200 Message-ID: <42D698AA.3070808@online.de> Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 18:54:02 +0200 From: Frank Organization: DLR User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-cruickshank-ipdvb-sec-00.txt, "ULEsec" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:3c03767231a58234e2a44945cd7de1c5 X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > * The ipdvb security ID is focused on ULE message encryption and > optional authentication. Yes, of course, the symmetric encryption and the key management should be as isolated as possible. Something for future I-D :-) > idea of having ULE header extensions for security, ULE MAC address > hiding using unique security ID (like the SPI in IPsec) with > or without > temporary MAC address and the general requirements for ULE > encryption . Identity protection also was an issue in the UMTS security architecture (IMSI vs. TMSI). This could be a requirement from governmental users. However, take care that the identity (or equivalent permanent MAC/NPA addresses) is protected during the whole communication session, including the connection setup signaling. Encrypting the MAC after it was revealed during setup does not help very much. Do the SNDU data formats (Figure 1/2) allow such a procedure? Your idea in the draft to link the temporary MAC to the key-exchange protocol sounds reasonable. Otherwise you would need two independent "re-keying" protocols for moving "targets", one for the dynamic MAC and one for the symmetric encryption key. MAC hiding using the SID sounds reasonable after setup. But how do you want to prevent the (permanent)MAC disclosure during connection setup? In general, I guess this draft is a good start for the IETF in Paris. Have fun! Frank From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Fri Jul 15 13:15:52 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DtTmy-0005F2-P9 for ipdvb-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:15:52 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26011 for ; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:15:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.77] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DtUFp-0001Np-In for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:45:42 -0400 Received: from mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j6FGYOAs003415 for ; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:34:24 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.2/Submit) id j6FGYOHe003414 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:34:24 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: mavis.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from mailg.surrey.ac.uk (mailg.surrey.ac.uk [131.227.102.21]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j6FGXQPl003370 for ; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:33:26 +0100 (BST) Received: from ads33.surrey.ac.uk by mailg.surrey.ac.uk with SMTP Local (PP) with ESMTP; Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:32:57 +0100 Received: from EVS-EC1-NODE1.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.102.136]) by ads33.surrey.ac.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:32:56 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5895A.DB361C8A" Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-cruickshank-ipdvb-sec-00.txt, "ULEsec" Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:32:56 +0100 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-cruickshank-ipdvb-sec-00.txt, "ULEsec" Thread-Index: AcWImaAaI2udxte2QoiEJ0hV8NcciQAv90nA From: "H.Cruickshank" To: ipdvb X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jul 2005 16:32:56.0798 (UTC) FILETIME=[DB39AFE0:01C5895A] X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1449ead51a2ff026dcb23465f5379250 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5895A.DB361C8A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Frank again, See replies in-line -- Dr. Haitham S. Cruickshank Lecturer Communications Centre for Communication Systems Research (CCSR) School of Electronics, Computing and Mathematics University of Surrey, Guildford, Surrey GU2 7XH, UK Tel: +44 1483 686007 (indirect 689844) Fax: +44 1483 686011 e-mail: H.Cruickshank@surrey.ac.uk http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/H.Cruickshank/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Frank Sent: 14 July 2005 17:54 To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-cruickshank-ipdvb-sec-00.txt, "ULEsec" > -----Original Message----- > * The ipdvb security ID is focused on ULE message encryption and > optional authentication. Yes, of course, the symmetric encryption and the key management should be as isolated as possible. Something for future I-D :-) > idea of having ULE header extensions for security, ULE MAC address > hiding using unique security ID (like the SPI in IPsec) with or > without temporary MAC address and the general requirements for ULE > encryption . Identity protection also was an issue in the UMTS security architecture (IMSI vs. TMSI). This could be a requirement from governmental users. However, take care that the identity (or equivalent permanent MAC/NPA addresses) is protected during the whole communication session, including the connection setup signaling. Encrypting the MAC after it was revealed during setup does not help very much. Do the SNDU data formats (Figure 1/2) allow such a procedure? Your idea in the draft to link the temporary MAC to the key-exchange protocol sounds reasonable. Otherwise you would need two independent "re-keying" protocols for moving "targets", one for the dynamic MAC and one for the symmetric encryption key. These details are part of the key management procedures which are out of scope for this document. MAC hiding using the SID sounds reasonable after setup. But how do you want to prevent the (permanent)MAC disclosure during connection setup? That is a good point. That is the reason for having a temporary MAC/NPA which should not be linked to any session. A temporary MAC/NPA address may change according to some predefined security policy or procedure. In general, I guess this draft is a good start for the IETF in Paris. Have fun! Thanks Haitham ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5895A.DB361C8A Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

Hi Frank again,

See replies=20 in-line

--

Dr. Haitham S.=20 Cruickshank

Lecturer

Communications Centre for Communication= =20 Systems Research (CCSR)

School of Electronics, Computing and=20 Mathematics

University of Surrey, Guildford, Surrey GU2 7XH,=20 UK

Tel: +44 1483 686007 (indirect 689844)

Fax: +44 1483=20 686011

e-mail: H.Cruickshank@surrey.ac.uk

http://www.ee.s= urrey.ac.uk/Personal/H.Cruickshank/



-----Original=20 Message-----
From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.u= k]=20 On Behalf Of Frank
Sent: 14 July 2005 17:54
To:=20 ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk
Subject: RE: I-D=20 ACTION:draft-cruickshank-ipdvb-sec-00.txt, "ULEsec"


>=20 -----Original Message-----
> * The ipdvb security ID is focused on UL= E=20 message encryption and
> optional authentication.
Yes, of course, = the=20 symmetric encryption and the key management should be as isolated as possib= le.=20 Something for future I-D :-)

> idea of having ULE header extensio= ns=20 for security, ULE MAC address
> hiding using unique security ID (like= the=20 SPI in IPsec) with or
> without temporary MAC address and the general= =20 requirements for ULE
> encryption .

Identity protection also w= as an=20 issue in the UMTS security architecture (IMSI vs. TMSI). This could be a=20 requirement from governmental users. However, take care that the identity (= or=20 equivalent permanent MAC/NPA
addresses) is protected during the whole=20 communication session, including the connection setup signaling. Encrypting= the=20 MAC after it was revealed during setup does not help very much. Do the SNDU= data=20 formats (Figure 1/2) allow such a procedure?


Your idea in the dr= aft=20 to link the temporary MAC to the key-exchange protocol sounds reasonable.= =20 Otherwise you would need two independent "re-keying" protocols for moving= =20 "targets", one for the dynamic MAC and one for the symmetric encryption=20 key.

These details are part o= f the key=20 management procedures which are out of scope for this document.


MAC hiding using the SID sounds reasonable after setup. But how do y= ou=20 want to prevent the (permanent)MAC disclosure during connection setup?


That is a good point.  That is the reason= for=20 having a temporary MAC/NPA which should not be linked to any session. = A=20 temporary MAC/NPA address may change according to some predefined security= =20 policy or procedure.

In general, I guess this draft is a good= =20 start for the IETF in Paris. Have fun!

Thanks

Haitham

 =00= ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5895A.DB361C8A-- From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Wed Jul 20 10:49:26 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvFt0-0005Qh-5l for ipdvb-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:49:26 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA23240 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:49:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.82] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DvGMk-0007kO-OC for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:20:17 -0400 Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KEZtaI002976 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:35:55 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.12.2/Submit) id j6KEZt4B002975 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:35:55 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from mail78.messagelabs.com (mail78.messagelabs.com [195.245.230.131]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with SMTP id j6KEZnI7002955 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:35:49 +0100 (BST) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: uma.shanker@kcl.ac.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-7.tower-78.messagelabs.com!1121870147!29432767!1 X-StarScan-Version: 5.4.15; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [137.73.2.214] Received: (qmail 25537 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2005 14:35:47 -0000 Received: from outbound.kcl.ac.uk (137.73.2.214) by server-7.tower-78.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 20 Jul 2005 14:35:47 -0000 Received: from relay2.kcl.ac.uk ([137.73.2.210] helo=Hazel) by outbound.kcl.ac.uk outbound with esmtp (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) id 1DvFfl-0003TZ-SW for ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:35:45 +0100 Received: from p549ca134.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([84.156.161.52] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by Hazel smtp with esmtp id 1DvFfY-0006gG-El for ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:35:33 +0100 Message-ID: <42DE6130.3030207@kcl.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:35:28 +0200 From: Uma Shanker User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: ULE implementation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-KCLSpamScore: 0 X-KCLRealSpamScore: -0.0 X-KCLZStatus: 0 X-KCLSpamReport: BAYES_44=-0.001 X-KCL-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: uma.shanker@kcl.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear All, I follow the ipdvb mailing list and looking on the current implementations etc. on Unidirectional Lightweight Encapsulation. Does any body have such implementation, specially if some code with ns2. Is there any plans for such work. I am a phd student from the king's College London. Thanks, uma shanker, CTR, KCL, London. From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Wed Jul 20 11:49:00 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvGod-0001me-K9 for ipdvb-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:49:00 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA03370 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 11:48:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.82] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DvHIT-0005C2-TT for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:19:51 -0400 Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KFhSoI005098 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:43:29 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.12.2/Submit) id j6KFhSTK005097 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:43:28 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from smtpout02-03.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout02-03.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.193]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with SMTP id j6KFhOae005080 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:43:24 +0100 (BST) Received: (qmail 30313 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2005 15:43:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO webmail11.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net) (64.202.189.48) by smtpout02-03.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net with SMTP; 20 Jul 2005 15:43:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 14006 invoked by uid 99); 20 Jul 2005 15:43:21 -0000 Message-ID: <20050720154321.14005.qmail@webmail11.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 08:43:21 -0700 From: Marie-Jose Montpetit Subject: RE: ULE implementation To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 I have ns2 code. What do you need? Marie-Jose > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: ULE implementation > From: Uma Shanker > Date: Wed, July 20, 2005 10:35 am > To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk > > Dear All, > > I follow the ipdvb mailing list and looking on the current > implementations etc. on Unidirectional Lightweight Encapsulation. > Does any body have such implementation, specially if some code with ns2. > Is there any plans for such work. > > I am a phd student from the king's College London. > > Thanks, > uma shanker, > CTR, KCL, London. From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Wed Jul 20 13:53:09 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DvIkn-0004MJ-Kb for ipdvb-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:53:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA15556 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 13:53:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.82] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DvJEe-0005o5-Ph for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 14:24:02 -0400 Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6KHgw33007841 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:42:58 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.12.2/Submit) id j6KHgwJM007840 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:42:58 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from mail83.messagelabs.com (mail83.messagelabs.com [195.245.231.83]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with SMTP id j6KHgrnv007823 for ; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:42:53 +0100 (BST) X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: uma.shanker@kcl.ac.uk X-Msg-Ref: server-15.tower-83.messagelabs.com!1121881371!20225647!1 X-StarScan-Version: 5.4.15; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [137.73.2.214] Received: (qmail 15359 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2005 17:42:51 -0000 Received: from outbound.kcl.ac.uk (137.73.2.214) by server-15.tower-83.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 20 Jul 2005 17:42:51 -0000 Received: from relay2.kcl.ac.uk ([137.73.2.210] helo=Hazel) by outbound.kcl.ac.uk outbound with esmtp (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) id 1DvIah-0007X4-KK for ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:42:43 +0100 Received: from p549ca134.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([84.156.161.52] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by Hazel smtp with esmtp id 1DvIaW-0005BU-At for ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk; Wed, 20 Jul 2005 18:42:33 +0100 Message-ID: <42DE8D05.50209@kcl.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:42:29 +0200 From: Uma Shanker User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: Re: ULE implementation References: <20050720154321.14005.qmail@webmail11.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net> In-Reply-To: <20050720154321.14005.qmail@webmail11.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-KCLSpamScore: 0 X-KCLRealSpamScore: -0.0 X-KCLZStatus: 0 X-KCLSpamReport: BAYES_44=-0.001 X-KCL-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: uma.shanker@kcl.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marie-Jose, We are working on the interworking of 3G and DVB-H. Based on the standards it is MPE right ? But we would like to compare it also with 3G and DVB-H with IP datagram using ULE. We are now trying to simulate(UMTS and DVB-H). Is any body implemented DVB(specially DVB-H ) on ns2 ? I have never seen DVB simulating on ns2, so currently trying to implement it. thanks, uma Marie-Jose Montpetit wrote: >I have ns2 code. What do you need? > >Marie-Jose > > > >>-------- Original Message -------- >>Subject: ULE implementation >>From: Uma Shanker >>Date: Wed, July 20, 2005 10:35 am >>To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk >> >>Dear All, >> >>I follow the ipdvb mailing list and looking on the current >>implementations etc. on Unidirectional Lightweight Encapsulation. >>Does any body have such implementation, specially if some code with ns2. >>Is there any plans for such work. >> >>I am a phd student from the king's College London. >> >>Thanks, >>uma shanker, >>CTR, KCL, London. >> >> > > > From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Tue Jul 26 09:10:40 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DxPCi-0001VO-Eu for ipdvb-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:10:40 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA16508 for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.82] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DxPhm-0003Vx-3P for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:42:46 -0400 Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QD0Ajt001094 for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:00:10 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.12.2/Submit) id j6QD0AM8001093 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:00:10 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (gresley.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.207.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QD06XP001077 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:00:06 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <42E633D7.2090604@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:00:07 +0100 From: Gorry Fairhurst Organization: Univesrity of Aberdeen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: REPOST: I-D ACTION:draft-cantillo-ipdvb-s2encaps-00.txt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0fa76816851382eb71b0a882ccdc29ac Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following draft has been submitted as an individual submission to the IETF. This topic seems like it may be appropriate to this working group, and I propose to assign some agenda time to discuss this topic at the IETF ipdvb WG meeting, next week. Thoughts and comments are welcome both to this list and at the meeting on the whether this work is appropriate, timely, and whether the methods propoposed are suitable. Best wishes, Gorry Fairhurst (ipdvb WG Chair) --- A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Requirements for transmission of IP datagrams over DVB-S.2 Author(s) : J. Cantillo, et al. Filename : draft-cantillo-ipdvb-s2encaps-00.txt Pages : 9 Date : 2005-7-19 This document contains requirements for a framework for transport of IP Datagrams over the second generation of DVB-S, namely DVB-S.2, recently specified by standards published by the European Telecommunications Standards Institute (ETSI). DVB-S.2 is optimized for broadband satellite applications such digital television, Internet access or data content distribution. The document identifies the requirements for the definition of a set of network protocols to standardise the interface between the DVB-S.2 streams (Transport Stream and Generic Stream) and an IP subnetwork. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-cantillo-ipdvb-s2encaps-00.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-cantillo-ipdvb-s2encaps-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv at ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-cantillo-ipdvb-s2encaps-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Tue Jul 26 10:11:53 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DxQ9x-0007wo-Fd for ipdvb-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:11:53 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA20995 for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:11:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.82] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DxQeu-0005Zb-Ii for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:44:00 -0400 Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QDtBW1002530 for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:55:11 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.12.2/Submit) id j6QDtBWV002529 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:55:11 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (gresley.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.207.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6QDsub5002512 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:54:56 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <42E640B1.7010901@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:54:57 +0100 From: Gorry Fairhurst Organization: Univesrity of Aberdeen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF Agenda Subject: ipdvb WG: Working Group Agenda - IETF -63 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is the Agenda for the next ipdvb WG meeting. Best wishes, Gorry (ipdvb WG Chair) gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk ----- IP over Digital Video Broadcast (ipdvb) WG 10:30-12:30, August 3, 2005 Internet Area 1. Agenda Bashing (10 minutes) - Chair * Agenda changes * Election of Scribe for Proceedings * Jabber Scribe 2. Document Status (5 minutes) - Chair * Documents in Last Call - None. * Documents in IESG Review: draft-ietf-ipdvb-ule-06 (Proposed Standard) * Documents in RFC Editor Queue: draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-04 (Informational) * Published RFCs - None. 3. Uni-directional Lighweight Encapsulation (10 minutes) - B C-N http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipdvb-ule-06.txt * Actions arising from * Assignment of code-points for SMPTE/DVB/ATSC 4. Address Resolution (15 minutes) - M-J Montpetit/G Fairhurst http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipdvb-ar-00.txt * L2 Resolution * L3 Resolution: ND, UDLR, etc. * Contributions required 5. IP Address Configuration for ipdvb (10 minutes) - M Stiemerling http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stiemerling-ipdvb-config-01.txt * Requirements and scenarios * Future directions for this draft 6. ULE Security Extension (20 minutes) - Haitham Cruikshank http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-cruickshank-ipdvb-sec-00.txt * Rationale * Security Header Extension proposal * Appropriateness of the technique 7. IP Encapsulation for DVB-S.2 (20 minutes) - Jerome Lacan http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-cantillo-ipdvb-s2encaps-00.txt * Requirements and scenarios * Future directions for this draft 8. Review of Milestones (10 minutes) - Chair 8. A.O.B. Archive: http://www.erg.abdn.ac.uk/ipdvb/archive Other related drafts: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bormann-rohc-over-802-01.txt http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-montpetit-ipdvb-config-00.txt http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-miloucheva-udlr-mipv6-00.txt From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Wed Jul 27 07:47:41 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DxkNx-0004HN-8f for ipdvb-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 07:47:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA19558 for ; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 07:47:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.82] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DxktB-0001jR-Rj for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 08:19:59 -0400 Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RBbru5021965 for ; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:37:53 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.12.2/Submit) id j6RBbrOB021964 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:37:53 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (gresley.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.207.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RBbmnB021947 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:37:48 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <42E7720B.2060806@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:37:47 +0100 From: Gorry Fairhurst Organization: Univesrity of Aberdeen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Subject: Proposed Changes to ULE text - Format descriptors for SI signalling Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The ULE Spec is now completing IESG review, and will soon be ready for publishing as an RFC. With this in mind, the authors of ULE have progressed with registering a code-point for the SI that describes ULE. They propose an update the ULE Spec to include the appropriate text describing this, prior to publication as an RFC. As I see it, there are three threads to this process - ISO format_id; DVB data_broadcast_id; and stream_type. Please send thoughts on any or all of the points below to the mailing list... Best wishes, gorry ----- 1) Format ID Proposed additional text for ULE RFC to specify what to do with PMTs on page 3: Old: "The MPEG-2 specification [ISO-MPEG2] requires conformant TS Multiplexes to provide Program Specific Information (PSI) for each stream in the TS Multiplex. Other MPEG-2 based transmission standards may also define Service Information (SI)." New: "The MPEG-2 specification [ISO-MPEG2] requires conformant TS Multiplexes to provide Program Specific Information (PSI) for each stream in the TS Multiplex. Other MPEG-2 based transmission standards may also define Service Information (SI). "A format_identifier value has been registered with the SMPTE RA [ULE1], for ULE. This has the hexadecimal value 0x554C4531 ("ULE1"). Transport Streams that utilise the Programme Map Table (PMT) defined in ISO 13818-1 and that use the ULE format defined in this document, SHOULD insert a descriptor with this value in the PMT ES_info descriptor loop." Add: [ULE1] Registration for format_identifier ULE1, SMPTE Registration Authority, LLC, http://www.smpte-ra.org/ule1.html. ----- 2) Data broadcast descriptor Although this was proposed at the last IETF meeting and via the mailing list, this has not currently been progressed. We can not currently see a specific need for this descriptor for ULE streams - the conventional use of the descriptor for MPEG Tables makes this less appropriate than (1) as a general-purpose method. A registration for ULE could still be done (before or after publishing the ULE RFC). Is there a need to do this now? ----- 3) Stream Type As I understand, stream_type values are not normatively assigned by ISO, but conventions are documented by DVB and ATSC. We propose to continue to progress with requesting a value for ULE (starting with ATSC). It is not clear to me that the value needs to be specified in the published RFC - what do others think? From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Wed Jul 27 10:14:56 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DxmgS-0003wd-Cd for ipdvb-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:14:56 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA01135 for ; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:14:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.82] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DxnBg-0006c7-5D for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:47:15 -0400 Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RE347s025283 for ; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:03:04 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.12.2/Submit) id j6RE34Qx025281 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:03:04 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from notesmta.nera.no (notesmta.nera.no [194.19.8.41]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RE31wt025266 for ; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:03:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pal-Harald Skinnemoen/SATCOM/NORWAY/NERA is out of the office. From: Harald Skinnemoen To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:02:54 +0200 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on NotesMTA/NERA(Release 6.5.3FP1|December 15, 2004) at 2005-07-27 16:03:01 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014

I will be out of the office starting 21.07.2005 and will not return until 04.08.2005.

For urgent matters try my mobile, +47 928 466 51
(SMS works fine if not urgent)


/Harald From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Wed Jul 27 15:15:18 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DxrN8-0002Mw-0h for ipdvb-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:15:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA25206 for ; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:15:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.82] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DxrsO-0008KS-Dg for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:47:39 -0400 Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RIkcjG002196 for ; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:46:38 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.12.2/Submit) id j6RIkbRA002195 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:46:37 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from erg.abdn.ac.uk (gresley.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.207.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6RIkXoG002179 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:46:33 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <42E7D689.9030100@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:46:33 +0100 From: Gorry Fairhurst Organization: Univesrity of Aberdeen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: Re: Proposed Changes to ULE text - Format descriptors for SI signalling References: <42E7720B.2060806@erg.abdn.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <42E7720B.2060806@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b5d20af10c334b36874c0264b10f59f1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After receiving a few suggestions, I now propose better text for the description of the format identifier: Page 3, Section 1 (Introduction): AFTER: "The MPEG-2 specification [ISO-MPEG2] requires conformant TS Multiplexes to provide Program Specific Information (PSI) for each stream in the TS Multiplex. Other MPEG-2 based transmission standards may also define Service Information (SI)." ^ INSERT BLANK LINE AND NEW PARAGRAPH after the above: "A format_identifier value has been registered for ULE [ULE1]. This 32 bit number has a hexadecimal value of 0x554C4531. Transport Streams that utilise the Programme Map Table (PMT) defined in ISO 13818-1 [ISO-MPEG2] and that use the ULE format defined in this document, SHOULD insert a descriptor with this value in the PMT ES_info descriptor loop." Best wishes, Gorry Gorry Fairhurst wrote: > > The ULE Spec is now completing IESG review, and will soon be ready for > publishing as an RFC. With this in mind, the authors of ULE have > progressed with registering a code-point for the SI that describes ULE. > They propose an update the ULE Spec to include the appropriate text > describing this, prior to publication as an RFC. > > As I see it, there are three threads to this process - ISO format_id; > DVB data_broadcast_id; and stream_type. > > Please send thoughts on any or all of the points below to the mailing > list... > > Best wishes, > > gorry > > ----- > 1) Format ID > > Proposed additional text for ULE RFC to specify what to do with PMTs on > page 3: > > Old: > "The MPEG-2 specification [ISO-MPEG2] requires conformant TS > Multiplexes to provide Program Specific Information (PSI) for > each stream in the TS Multiplex. Other MPEG-2 based transmission > standards may also define Service Information (SI)." > > New: > "The MPEG-2 specification [ISO-MPEG2] requires conformant TS > Multiplexes to provide Program Specific Information (PSI) for > each stream in the TS Multiplex. Other MPEG-2 based transmission > standards may also define Service Information (SI). > > "A format_identifier value has been registered with the SMPTE RA > [ULE1], for ULE. This has the hexadecimal value 0x554C4531 > ("ULE1"). Transport Streams that utilise the Programme > Map Table (PMT) defined in ISO 13818-1 and that use the ULE > format defined in this document, SHOULD insert a descriptor with > this value in the PMT ES_info descriptor loop." > > Add: > [ULE1] Registration for format_identifier ULE1, SMPTE Registration > Authority, LLC, http://www.smpte-ra.org/ule1.html. > > ----- > 2) Data broadcast descriptor > > Although this was proposed at the last IETF meeting and via the mailing > list, this has not currently been progressed. We can not currently see a > specific need for this descriptor for ULE streams - the conventional use > of the descriptor for MPEG Tables makes this less appropriate than (1) > as a general-purpose method. A registration for ULE could still be done > (before or after publishing the ULE RFC). Is there a need to do this now? > > ----- > 3) Stream Type > > As I understand, stream_type values are not normatively assigned by ISO, > but conventions are documented by DVB and ATSC. We propose to continue > to progress with requesting a value for ULE (starting with ATSC). It is > not clear to me that the value needs to be specified in the published > RFC - what do others think? > > > From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Fri Jul 29 15:46:22 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DyaoI-0004z4-OD for ipdvb-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:46:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA04524 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:46:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.82] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DybJy-0003sy-Oa for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 16:19:10 -0400 Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6TJMfvV009953 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 20:22:41 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.12.2/Submit) id j6TJMfJm009952 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 20:22:41 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from nab.org (foxtrot.nab.org [209.116.240.194]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6TJMaND009937 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 20:22:37 +0100 (BST) Received: from ([199.29.3.25]) by maildc2.nab.org with ESMTP id 4028857.5962345; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:06:02 -0400 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Subject: RE: Proposed Changes to ULE text - Format descriptors for SI signalling Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:06:02 -0400 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Proposed Changes to ULE text - Format descriptors for SI signalling Thread-Index: AcWS4Ue3k5v0QfsCQ9iHXGZyH7Ur7ABjmQ0A From: "Allison, Art" To: X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by erg.abdn.ac.uk id j6TJMf41009949 Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1676547e4f33b5e63227e9c02bd359e3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit If the insertion is not mandatory, one cannot rely upon its presence. If not present, how is a conflict with another private use that has a structure that is close to ULE prevented/resolved. Recommend RTR: " Transport Streams that utilise the Programme Map Table (PMT) defined in ISO 13818-1 [ISO-MPEG2] and that use the ULE format defined in this document, SHALL insert a descriptor with this value in the PMT ES_info descriptor loop." __________________ Art Allison Director, Advanced Engineering NAB Science & Technology 1771 N St NW, Washington DC 20036 202 429 5418 -----Original Message----- From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 2:47 PM To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: Re: Proposed Changes to ULE text - Format descriptors for SI signalling After receiving a few suggestions, I now propose better text for the description of the format identifier: Page 3, Section 1 (Introduction): AFTER: "The MPEG-2 specification [ISO-MPEG2] requires conformant TS Multiplexes to provide Program Specific Information (PSI) for each stream in the TS Multiplex. Other MPEG-2 based transmission standards may also define Service Information (SI)." ^ INSERT BLANK LINE AND NEW PARAGRAPH after the above: "A format_identifier value has been registered for ULE [ULE1]. This 32 bit number has a hexadecimal value of 0x554C4531. Transport Streams that utilise the Programme Map Table (PMT) defined in ISO 13818-1 [ISO-MPEG2] and that use the ULE format defined in this document, SHOULD insert a descriptor with this value in the PMT ES_info descriptor loop." Best wishes, Gorry Gorry Fairhurst wrote: > > The ULE Spec is now completing IESG review, and will soon be ready for > publishing as an RFC. With this in mind, the authors of ULE have > progressed with registering a code-point for the SI that describes ULE. > They propose an update the ULE Spec to include the appropriate text > describing this, prior to publication as an RFC. > > As I see it, there are three threads to this process - ISO format_id; > DVB data_broadcast_id; and stream_type. > > Please send thoughts on any or all of the points below to the mailing > list... > > Best wishes, > > gorry > > ----- > 1) Format ID > > Proposed additional text for ULE RFC to specify what to do with PMTs > on page 3: > > Old: > "The MPEG-2 specification [ISO-MPEG2] requires conformant TS > Multiplexes to provide Program Specific Information (PSI) for > each stream in the TS Multiplex. Other MPEG-2 based transmission > standards may also define Service Information (SI)." > > New: > "The MPEG-2 specification [ISO-MPEG2] requires conformant TS > Multiplexes to provide Program Specific Information (PSI) for > each stream in the TS Multiplex. Other MPEG-2 based transmission > standards may also define Service Information (SI). > > "A format_identifier value has been registered with the SMPTE RA > [ULE1], for ULE. This has the hexadecimal value 0x554C4531 > ("ULE1"). Transport Streams that utilise the Programme > Map Table (PMT) defined in ISO 13818-1 and that use the ULE > format defined in this document, SHOULD insert a descriptor with > this value in the PMT ES_info descriptor loop." > > Add: > [ULE1] Registration for format_identifier ULE1, SMPTE Registration > Authority, LLC, http://www.smpte-ra.org/ule1.html. > > ----- > 2) Data broadcast descriptor > > Although this was proposed at the last IETF meeting and via the > mailing list, this has not currently been progressed. We can not > currently see a specific need for this descriptor for ULE streams - > the conventional use of the descriptor for MPEG Tables makes this less > appropriate than (1) as a general-purpose method. A registration for > ULE could still be done (before or after publishing the ULE RFC). Is there a need to do this now? > > ----- > 3) Stream Type > > As I understand, stream_type values are not normatively assigned by > ISO, but conventions are documented by DVB and ATSC. We propose to > continue to progress with requesting a value for ULE (starting with > ATSC). It is not clear to me that the value needs to be specified in > the published RFC - what do others think? > > > From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Fri Jul 29 18:52:51 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Dydih-0006ok-7w for ipdvb-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:52:51 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA14300 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:52:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.82] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DyeEP-0000MK-I2 for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:25:36 -0400 Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6TMk961013476 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 23:46:09 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.12.2/Submit) id j6TMk9oa013475 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 23:46:09 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from sharplabs.com (keymaster.sharplabs.com [216.65.151.107]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6TMjwea013457 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 23:46:01 +0100 (BST) Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j6TMjoOR022910 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:47:08 -0700 Message-ID: <08259490B3BC3140B549DD0907A5644822C4F6@admsrvnt10.enet.sharplabs.com> From: "Goldberg, Adam" To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: RE: Proposed Changes to ULE text - Format descriptors for SI sign alling Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 15:44:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by erg.abdn.ac.uk id j6TMk9GQ013472 Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by erg.abdn.ac.uk id j6TMk961013476 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d16ce744298aacf98517bc7c108bd198 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Are there transport streams (in IETF-land) WITHOUT PMT? If so, I'd like = to know. And if not,=20 RTR: " A format_identifier value has been registered for ULE [ULE1]. This= 32 bit number has a hexadecimal value of 0x554C4531. Transport Streams that use the ULE format defined in this document SHALL insert a descriptor wit= h this value in the Program Map Table (PMT) ES_info descriptor loop." Adam Goldberg Director, Television Standards & Policy Development Sharp Laboratories of America 8605 Westwood Center Drive, Suite 206 Vienna, VA=A0 22182 703-556-4406 703-556-4410 fax 571-276-0305 cell =A0 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk] On > Behalf Of Allison, Art > Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:06 PM > To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk > Subject: RE: Proposed Changes to ULE text - Format descriptors for SI > signalling >=20 > If the insertion is not mandatory, one cannot rely upon its presence. > If not present, how is a conflict with another private use that has a > structure that is close to ULE prevented/resolved. >=20 > Recommend RTR: " Transport Streams that utilise the Programme Map Table > (PMT) > defined in ISO 13818-1 [ISO-MPEG2] and that use the ULE > format defined in this document, SHALL insert a descriptor with > this value in the PMT ES_info descriptor loop." > __________________ > Art Allison > Director, Advanced Engineering > NAB Science & Technology > 1771 N St NW, Washington DC 20036 > 202 429 5418 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk] > Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 2:47 PM > To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Proposed Changes to ULE text - Format descriptors for SI > signalling >=20 >=20 > After receiving a few suggestions, I now propose better text for the > description of the format identifier: >=20 > Page 3, Section 1 (Introduction): > AFTER: > "The MPEG-2 specification [ISO-MPEG2] requires conformant TS > Multiplexes to provide Program Specific Information (PSI) for > each stream in the TS Multiplex. Other MPEG-2 based transmission > standards may also define Service Information (SI)." > ^ INSERT BLANK > LINE AND NEW PARAGRAPH after the above: > "A format_identifier value has been registered for ULE [ULE1]. > This 32 bit number has a hexadecimal value of 0x554C4531. > Transport Streams that utilise the Programme Map Table (PMT) > defined in ISO 13818-1 [ISO-MPEG2] and that use the ULE > format defined in this document, SHOULD insert a descriptor with > this value in the PMT ES_info descriptor loop." >=20 > Best wishes, >=20 > Gorry >=20 > Gorry Fairhurst wrote: >=20 > > > > The ULE Spec is now completing IESG review, and will soon be ready fo= r >=20 > > publishing as an RFC. With this in mind, the authors of ULE have > > progressed with registering a code-point for the SI that describes > ULE. > > They propose an update the ULE Spec to include the appropriate text > > describing this, prior to publication as an RFC. > > > > As I see it, there are three threads to this process - ISO format_id; > > DVB data_broadcast_id; and stream_type. > > > > Please send thoughts on any or all of the points below to the mailing > > list... > > > > Best wishes, > > > > gorry > > > > ----- > > 1) Format ID > > > > Proposed additional text for ULE RFC to specify what to do with PMTs > > on page 3: > > > > Old: > > "The MPEG-2 specification [ISO-MPEG2] requires conformant TS > > Multiplexes to provide Program Specific Information (PSI) for > > each stream in the TS Multiplex. Other MPEG-2 based transmission > > standards may also define Service Information (SI)." > > > > New: > > "The MPEG-2 specification [ISO-MPEG2] requires conformant TS > > Multiplexes to provide Program Specific Information (PSI) for > > each stream in the TS Multiplex. Other MPEG-2 based transmission > > standards may also define Service Information (SI). > > > > "A format_identifier value has been registered with the SMPTE RA > > [ULE1], for ULE. This has the hexadecimal value 0x554C4531 > > ("ULE1"). Transport Streams that utilise the Programme > > Map Table (PMT) defined in ISO 13818-1 and that use the ULE > > format defined in this document, SHOULD insert a descriptor with > > this value in the PMT ES_info descriptor loop." > > > > Add: > > [ULE1] Registration for format_identifier ULE1, SMPTE Registration > > Authority, LLC, http://www.smpte-ra.org/ule1.html. > > > > ----- > > 2) Data broadcast descriptor > > > > Although this was proposed at the last IETF meeting and via the > > mailing list, this has not currently been progressed. We can not > > currently see a specific need for this descriptor for ULE streams - > > the conventional use of the descriptor for MPEG Tables makes this les= s >=20 > > appropriate than (1) as a general-purpose method. A registration for > > ULE could still be done (before or after publishing the ULE RFC). Is > there a need to do this now? > > > > ----- > > 3) Stream Type > > > > As I understand, stream_type values are not normatively assigned by > > ISO, but conventions are documented by DVB and ATSC. We propose to > > continue to progress with requesting a value for ULE (starting with > > ATSC). It is not clear to me that the value needs to be specified in > > the published RFC - what do others think? > > > > > > From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Sun Jul 31 07:27:06 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzByE-0000dm-Ca for ipdvb-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 07:27:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA18307 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 07:27:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.82] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DzCUF-0006oi-8q for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:00:14 -0400 Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6VB5eqG016093 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:05:40 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.12.2/Submit) id j6VB5eC8016091 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:05:40 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from [139.133.204.42] (ra-gorry.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.42]) (authenticated bits=0) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6VB5I3q015687 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT); Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:05:21 +0100 (BST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.1.0.040913 Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:36:07 +0100 Subject: Comments on draft-cantillo-ipdvb-S2encaps-00.txt From: Gorry Fairhurst To: "ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk" CC: , , Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 37af5f8fbf6f013c5b771388e24b09e7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think the draft is useful and I look forward to seeing this draft discussed the draft at the WG meeting on Wednesday. Ahead of this, here are my comments on the current draft text. I wish also to encourage others interested in this topic to read & review the document and offer their own comments/questions to the ipdvb list. I'd be interested to see the level of interest in this particular topic. Best wishes, Gorry ---- 1) The draft describes a set of requirements in sections 4,5 some of which resemble those already discussed in the ipdvb WG. It would be good to more clearly set out what requirements that were identified for MPEG-2 transmission of IP do NOT apply for DVB-S2, and to list the places were there are differing requirements for DVB-S2. A useful for basis for this is the WG document on Framework/architecture: draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-04.txt * Can you clarify the places were see the requirements differ to those listed in section 4 of the arch document? ---- 2) At the end of section 3, the draft states that "The main advantage is...". From my understanding, I am not sure that this captures the complete picture. While simplification of the encapsulation process clearly has architectural benefits and reduces the system complexity, the gain in performance is likely to be limited - the overhead of the MPEG-2 TS multiplexing layer is (4 or 5)/188 bytes, around 2%: Eliminating this is unlikely to yield much overall gain in overall link efficiency. If this were the only motivation, I would have concerns whether this work could be justified. However, I believe that the introduction of adaptive coding and modulation in DVB-S2 raises new issues that could motivate a new encapsulation. For example, the physical layer framing is different, and is used in a different way - particularly since specific frame formats will be used to communicate with Receivers based on Receiver characteristics (terminal design, location, SLA, etc) and/or upon prevailing channel conditions. This usage differs from the stream-based approach of classical MPEG-2 TS. As a result, packets destined to an End System will be encoded in one of a set of different physical layer frame formats. The format chosen will depend upon the time (i.e. Prevailing system conditions) and the next-hop Receiver. Two additional aspects are: (i) The physical layer frame format allows much larger IP fragments, and will often allow transmission of complete packets within single frames. This may have implications on the design of the encapsulation. (ii) A case exists were a fragment of a particular IP packet sent in a previous physical layer frame may (or may not) be resumed in the next successive physical layer frame. If it is not sent consecutively, it may be postponed to a later physical layer frame. This case could arise if transmission would otherwise result in a partially full physical layer frame (other traffic may not be suited to this frame format, if this frame did not meet the SLA requirements of the other queued traffic). This seems to imply a need to look at more advanced fragmentation procedures than currently implemented in ULE. * Can you (or others on the ipdvb list) offer views on these issues? I'd like to understand better these issues, to judge what level of complexity is actually required by an "S2 encapsulation protocol". ----- 3) In addition, resolution methods are required to map the IP flows to physical layer flows. If the MPEG-2 TS is used, these may resemble those currently proposed in: draft-ietf-ipdvb-ar-00.txt * Are there important differences? * What is the expected impact of directly using the Generic Mode rather than the MPEG-2 TS? ----------------------------------------------------------- The following editorial NiTs may be worth correcting in the next draft: ---- (a) The Introduction & references should cite: [RFCXARCHX] M.J. Montpetit, G. Fairhurst, H. D. Clausen, B. Collini-Nocker, H. Linder "A Framework for transmission of IP datagrams over MPEG-2 Networks", RFCXARCHX, 2005. ---- (b) It would be most useful to include a set of definitions for the terms that are used relating to the DVB-S2 layer (e.g. A section on "Conventions Used in This Document" would be welcome). ---- (c ) There is a missing blank line between refs 3 & 4. ---- (d) At some time, references need to be divided between normative and informative. My suggestion is the following (although this may depend upon how the document evolves): Normative 1,3,6 Informative 2,4,5,7,8 9 ---- (e) The use of RFC2119 key words in this context (as a requirements document) may not be appropriate, but this can be resolved at a future time. ---- From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Sun Jul 31 07:39:49 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzCAX-0003El-Tg for ipdvb-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 07:39:49 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA18942 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 07:39:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.82] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DzCgb-0007Sh-Ul for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 08:12:58 -0400 Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6VBMZuB000614 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:22:35 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.12.2/Submit) id j6VBMZD0000613 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:22:35 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from [139.133.204.42] (ra-gorry.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.42]) (authenticated bits=0) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6VBMVRf000453 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:22:31 +0100 (BST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.1.0.040913 Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:24:18 +0100 Subject: Re: Proposed Changes to ULE text - Format descriptors for SI sign alling From: Gorry Fairhurst To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <08259490B3BC3140B549DD0907A5644822C4F6@admsrvnt10.enet.sharplabs.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by erg.abdn.ac.uk id j6VBMZuM000607 Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by erg.abdn.ac.uk id j6VBMZuB000614 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2a76bcd37b1c8a21336eb0a1ea6bbf48 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 29/7/05 11:44 pm, "Goldberg, Adam" wrote: > Are there transport streams (in IETF-land) WITHOUT PMT? Indeed there are.=20 There are many possible topologies for MPEG-2 Transmission Networks, see section 3.1 of: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-04.txt In some specific scenarios, there are "transport streams" that go straigh= t from the ipdvb gateway/encapsulator, are modulated/broadcast and then received by a Receiver/Router (i.e., for example they are never "remultiplexed", and have no specific need for a PMT). These can use othe= r methods to configure PID usage. Gorry > If so, I'd like to know. And if not, >=20 > RTR: " A format_identifier value has been registered for ULE [ULE1]. Th= is 32 > bit number has a hexadecimal value of 0x554C4531. Transport Streams th= at > use the ULE format defined in this document SHALL insert a descriptor w= ith > this value in the Program Map Table (PMT) ES_info descriptor loop." >=20 >=20 > Adam Goldberg > Director, Television Standards & Policy Development > Sharp Laboratories of America > 8605 Westwood Center Drive, Suite 206 > Vienna, VA=A0 22182 > 703-556-4406 > 703-556-4410 fax > 571-276-0305 cell > =A0 >=20 >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk] O= n >> Behalf Of Allison, Art >> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:06 PM >> To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk >> Subject: RE: Proposed Changes to ULE text - Format descriptors for SI >> signalling >>=20 >> If the insertion is not mandatory, one cannot rely upon its presence. >> If not present, how is a conflict with another private use that has a >> structure that is close to ULE prevented/resolved. >>=20 >> Recommend RTR: " Transport Streams that utilise the Programme Map Tabl= e >> (PMT) >> defined in ISO 13818-1 [ISO-MPEG2] and that use the ULE >> format defined in this document, SHALL insert a descriptor with >> this value in the PMT ES_info descriptor loop." >> __________________ >> Art Allison >> Director, Advanced Engineering >> NAB Science & Technology >> 1771 N St NW, Washington DC 20036 >> 202 429 5418 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk] >> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 2:47 PM >> To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk >> Subject: Re: Proposed Changes to ULE text - Format descriptors for SI >> signalling >>=20 >>=20 >> After receiving a few suggestions, I now propose better text for the >> description of the format identifier: >>=20 >> Page 3, Section 1 (Introduction): >> AFTER: >> "The MPEG-2 specification [ISO-MPEG2] requires conformant TS >> Multiplexes to provide Program Specific Information (PSI) for >> each stream in the TS Multiplex. Other MPEG-2 based transmission >> standards may also define Service Information (SI)." >> ^ INSERT BLANK >> LINE AND NEW PARAGRAPH after the above: >> "A format_identifier value has been registered for ULE [ULE1]. >> This 32 bit number has a hexadecimal value of 0x554C4531. >> Transport Streams that utilise the Programme Map Table (PMT) >> defined in ISO 13818-1 [ISO-MPEG2] and that use the ULE >> format defined in this document, SHOULD insert a descriptor with >> this value in the PMT ES_info descriptor loop." >>=20 >> Best wishes, >>=20 >> Gorry >>=20 >> Gorry Fairhurst wrote: >>=20 >>>=20 >>> The ULE Spec is now completing IESG review, and will soon be ready fo= r >>=20 >>> publishing as an RFC. With this in mind, the authors of ULE have >>> progressed with registering a code-point for the SI that describes >> ULE. >>> They propose an update the ULE Spec to include the appropriate text >>> describing this, prior to publication as an RFC. >>>=20 >>> As I see it, there are three threads to this process - ISO format_id; >>> DVB data_broadcast_id; and stream_type. >>>=20 >>> Please send thoughts on any or all of the points below to the mailing >>> list... >>>=20 >>> Best wishes, >>>=20 >>> gorry >>>=20 >>> ----- >>> 1) Format ID >>>=20 >>> Proposed additional text for ULE RFC to specify what to do with PMTs >>> on page 3: >>>=20 >>> Old: >>> "The MPEG-2 specification [ISO-MPEG2] requires conformant TS >>> Multiplexes to provide Program Specific Information (PSI) for >>> each stream in the TS Multiplex. Other MPEG-2 based transmission >>> standards may also define Service Information (SI)." >>>=20 >>> New: >>> "The MPEG-2 specification [ISO-MPEG2] requires conformant TS >>> Multiplexes to provide Program Specific Information (PSI) for >>> each stream in the TS Multiplex. Other MPEG-2 based transmission >>> standards may also define Service Information (SI). >>>=20 >>> "A format_identifier value has been registered with the SMPTE RA >>> [ULE1], for ULE. This has the hexadecimal value 0x554C4531 >>> ("ULE1"). Transport Streams that utilise the Programme >>> Map Table (PMT) defined in ISO 13818-1 and that use the ULE >>> format defined in this document, SHOULD insert a descriptor with >>> this value in the PMT ES_info descriptor loop." >>>=20 >>> Add: >>> [ULE1] Registration for format_identifier ULE1, SMPTE Registration >>> Authority, LLC, http://www.smpte-ra.org/ule1.html. >>>=20 >>> ----- >>> 2) Data broadcast descriptor >>>=20 >>> Although this was proposed at the last IETF meeting and via the >>> mailing list, this has not currently been progressed. We can not >>> currently see a specific need for this descriptor for ULE streams - >>> the conventional use of the descriptor for MPEG Tables makes this les= s >>=20 >>> appropriate than (1) as a general-purpose method. A registration for >>> ULE could still be done (before or after publishing the ULE RFC). Is >> there a need to do this now? >>>=20 >>> ----- >>> 3) Stream Type >>>=20 >>> As I understand, stream_type values are not normatively assigned by >>> ISO, but conventions are documented by DVB and ATSC. We propose to >>> continue to progress with requesting a value for ULE (starting with >>> ATSC). It is not clear to me that the value needs to be specified in >>> the published RFC - what do others think? >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >=20 >=20 From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Sun Jul 31 15:10:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzJCU-00051S-Qk for ipdvb-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:10:19 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA13684 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:10:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.82] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DzJic-0002f2-MD for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:43:31 -0400 Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6VJ22QE009965 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:02:02 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.12.2/Submit) id j6VJ22K1009964 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:02:02 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from sharplabs.com (keymaster.sharplabs.com [216.65.151.107]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6VJ1bZq009936 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 20:01:41 +0100 (BST) Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j6VJ1Xqh017749 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:02:53 -0700 Message-ID: <08259490B3BC3140B549DD0907A5644822C4FD@admsrvnt10.enet.sharplabs.com> From: "Goldberg, Adam" To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: RE: Proposed Changes to ULE text - Format descriptors for SI sign alling Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:02:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by erg.abdn.ac.uk id j6VJ22xE009961 Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by erg.abdn.ac.uk id j6VJ22QE009965 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7268a2980febc47a9fa732aba2b737ba Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, but I feel a need to be pedantic. See ISO/IEC 13818-1 =A72.4.1. A Transport Stream consists of "... one or= more programs ...". Also, "The Program Map Table, in Table 2-28, specifies, among other information, which PIDs, and therefore which elementary strea= ms are associated to form each program." Therefore, if there aren't one or more "programs" (defined as a "collecti= on or program elements", where "program elements" means elementary streams),= or if there isn't a Program Map Table that specifies which elementary stream= s are associated with the (one or more) program(s), it isn't a "MPEG-2 Transport Stream". Just because it uses MPEG-2 Transport Stream packets, that doesn't make it a Transport Stream. Adam Goldberg Director, Television Standards & Policy Development=20 Sharp Laboratories of America=20 8605 Westwood Center Drive, Suite 206=20 Vienna, VA=A0 22182=20 (703) 556-4406=20 (703) 556-4410 fax -----Original Message----- From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Gorry Fairhurst Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 7:24 AM To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: Re: Proposed Changes to ULE text - Format descriptors for SI sig= n alling On 29/7/05 11:44 pm, "Goldberg, Adam" wrote: > Are there transport streams (in IETF-land) WITHOUT PMT? Indeed there are.=20 There are many possible topologies for MPEG-2 Transmission Networks, see section 3.1 of: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-04.txt In some specific scenarios, there are "transport streams" that go straigh= t from the ipdvb gateway/encapsulator, are modulated/broadcast and then received by a Receiver/Router (i.e., for example they are never "remultiplexed", and have no specific need for a PMT). These can use othe= r methods to configure PID usage. Gorry > If so, I'd like to know. And if not, >=20 > RTR: " A format_identifier value has been registered for ULE [ULE1]. Th= is 32 > bit number has a hexadecimal value of 0x554C4531. Transport Streams th= at > use the ULE format defined in this document SHALL insert a descriptor w= ith > this value in the Program Map Table (PMT) ES_info descriptor loop." >=20 >=20 > Adam Goldberg > Director, Television Standards & Policy Development > Sharp Laboratories of America > 8605 Westwood Center Drive, Suite 206 > Vienna, VA=A0 22182 > 703-556-4406 > 703-556-4410 fax > 571-276-0305 cell > =A0 >=20 >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk] O= n >> Behalf Of Allison, Art >> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:06 PM >> To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk >> Subject: RE: Proposed Changes to ULE text - Format descriptors for SI >> signalling >>=20 >> If the insertion is not mandatory, one cannot rely upon its presence. >> If not present, how is a conflict with another private use that has a >> structure that is close to ULE prevented/resolved. >>=20 >> Recommend RTR: " Transport Streams that utilise the Programme Map Tabl= e >> (PMT) >> defined in ISO 13818-1 [ISO-MPEG2] and that use the ULE >> format defined in this document, SHALL insert a descriptor with >> this value in the PMT ES_info descriptor loop." >> __________________ >> Art Allison >> Director, Advanced Engineering >> NAB Science & Technology >> 1771 N St NW, Washington DC 20036 >> 202 429 5418 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk] >> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 2:47 PM >> To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk >> Subject: Re: Proposed Changes to ULE text - Format descriptors for SI >> signalling >>=20 >>=20 >> After receiving a few suggestions, I now propose better text for the >> description of the format identifier: >>=20 >> Page 3, Section 1 (Introduction): >> AFTER: >> "The MPEG-2 specification [ISO-MPEG2] requires conformant TS >> Multiplexes to provide Program Specific Information (PSI) for >> each stream in the TS Multiplex. Other MPEG-2 based transmission >> standards may also define Service Information (SI)." >> ^ INSERT BLANK >> LINE AND NEW PARAGRAPH after the above: >> "A format_identifier value has been registered for ULE [ULE1]. >> This 32 bit number has a hexadecimal value of 0x554C4531. >> Transport Streams that utilise the Programme Map Table (PMT) >> defined in ISO 13818-1 [ISO-MPEG2] and that use the ULE >> format defined in this document, SHOULD insert a descriptor with >> this value in the PMT ES_info descriptor loop." >>=20 >> Best wishes, >>=20 >> Gorry >>=20 >> Gorry Fairhurst wrote: >>=20 >>>=20 >>> The ULE Spec is now completing IESG review, and will soon be ready fo= r >>=20 >>> publishing as an RFC. With this in mind, the authors of ULE have >>> progressed with registering a code-point for the SI that describes >> ULE. >>> They propose an update the ULE Spec to include the appropriate text >>> describing this, prior to publication as an RFC. >>>=20 >>> As I see it, there are three threads to this process - ISO format_id; >>> DVB data_broadcast_id; and stream_type. >>>=20 >>> Please send thoughts on any or all of the points below to the mailing >>> list... >>>=20 >>> Best wishes, >>>=20 >>> gorry >>>=20 >>> ----- >>> 1) Format ID >>>=20 >>> Proposed additional text for ULE RFC to specify what to do with PMTs >>> on page 3: >>>=20 >>> Old: >>> "The MPEG-2 specification [ISO-MPEG2] requires conformant TS >>> Multiplexes to provide Program Specific Information (PSI) for >>> each stream in the TS Multiplex. Other MPEG-2 based transmission >>> standards may also define Service Information (SI)." >>>=20 >>> New: >>> "The MPEG-2 specification [ISO-MPEG2] requires conformant TS >>> Multiplexes to provide Program Specific Information (PSI) for >>> each stream in the TS Multiplex. Other MPEG-2 based transmission >>> standards may also define Service Information (SI). >>>=20 >>> "A format_identifier value has been registered with the SMPTE RA >>> [ULE1], for ULE. This has the hexadecimal value 0x554C4531 >>> ("ULE1"). Transport Streams that utilise the Programme >>> Map Table (PMT) defined in ISO 13818-1 and that use the ULE >>> format defined in this document, SHOULD insert a descriptor with >>> this value in the PMT ES_info descriptor loop." >>>=20 >>> Add: >>> [ULE1] Registration for format_identifier ULE1, SMPTE Registration >>> Authority, LLC, http://www.smpte-ra.org/ule1.html. >>>=20 >>> ----- >>> 2) Data broadcast descriptor >>>=20 >>> Although this was proposed at the last IETF meeting and via the >>> mailing list, this has not currently been progressed. We can not >>> currently see a specific need for this descriptor for ULE streams - >>> the conventional use of the descriptor for MPEG Tables makes this les= s >>=20 >>> appropriate than (1) as a general-purpose method. A registration for >>> ULE could still be done (before or after publishing the ULE RFC). Is >> there a need to do this now? >>>=20 >>> ----- >>> 3) Stream Type >>>=20 >>> As I understand, stream_type values are not normatively assigned by >>> ISO, but conventions are documented by DVB and ATSC. We propose to >>> continue to progress with requesting a value for ULE (starting with >>> ATSC). It is not clear to me that the value needs to be specified in >>> the published RFC - what do others think? >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >=20 >=20 From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Sun Jul 31 16:30:22 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzKRy-0002AE-Is for ipdvb-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:30:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA17380 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:30:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.82] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DzKy3-0006PI-UL for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 17:03:32 -0400 Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6VKOYGD011675 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:24:34 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.12.2/Submit) id j6VKOYAf011674 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:24:34 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from [139.133.204.42] (ra-gorry.erg.abdn.ac.uk [139.133.204.42]) (authenticated bits=0) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6VKOPTE011656 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:24:29 +0100 (BST) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.1.0.040913 Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 22:26:13 +0200 Subject: Re: Proposed Changes to ULE text - Format descriptors for SI sign alling From: Gorry Fairhurst To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <08259490B3BC3140B549DD0907A5644822C4FD@admsrvnt10.enet.sharplabs.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by erg.abdn.ac.uk id j6VKOYHr011671 Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by erg.abdn.ac.uk id j6VKOYGD011675 X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 850245b51c39701e2700a112f3032caa Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable See in-line, On 31/7/05 9:02 pm, "Goldberg, Adam" wrote: > Sorry, but I feel a need to be pedantic. >=20 > See ISO/IEC 13818-1 =A72.4.1. A Transport Stream consists of "... one = or more > programs ...". Also, "The Program Map Table, in Table 2-28, specifies, > among other information, which PIDs, and therefore which elementary str= eams > are associated to form each program." >=20 So, the document says in the paragraph before: The MPEG-2 specification [ISO-MPEG2] requires conformant TS Multiplexes to provide Program Specific Information (PSI) for each stream in the TS Multiplex. Other MPEG-2 based transmission standards may also define Service Information (SI). > Therefore, if there aren't one or more "programs" (defined as a "collec= tion > or program elements", where "program elements" means elementary streams= ), or > if there isn't a Program Map Table that specifies which elementary stre= ams > are associated with the (one or more) program(s), it isn't a "MPEG-2 > Transport Stream". Just because it uses MPEG-2 Transport Stream packet= s, > that doesn't make it a Transport Stream. Therefore, conformant ISO 13818-1 TS do carry PMT tables, in which the UL= E Format descriptors SHOULD be included for the ULE streams. The IETF defines (in RFC2119) that SHOULD, means "that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a particular item, but the full implications must be understood and carefully weighed before choosing a different course". In this case, it means "implement this" or the implication may be that th= e stream is dropped by a TS multiplexor that does not recognise it. Gorry > Adam Goldberg > Director, Television Standards & Policy Development > Sharp Laboratories of America > 8605 Westwood Center Drive, Suite 206 > Vienna, VA=A0 22182 > (703) 556-4406=20 > (703) 556-4410 fax >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk] On > Behalf Of Gorry Fairhurst > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 7:24 AM > To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Proposed Changes to ULE text - Format descriptors for SI s= ign > alling >=20 > On 29/7/05 11:44 pm, "Goldberg, Adam" wrote: >=20 >> Are there transport streams (in IETF-land) WITHOUT PMT? >=20 > Indeed there are. >=20 > There are many possible topologies for MPEG-2 Transmission Networks, se= e > section 3.1 of: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-04.txt >=20 > In some specific scenarios, there are "transport streams" that go strai= ght > from the ipdvb gateway/encapsulator, are modulated/broadcast and then > received by a Receiver/Router (i.e., for example they are never > "remultiplexed", and have no specific need for a PMT). These can use ot= her > methods to configure PID usage. >=20 > Gorry >=20 >> If so, I'd like to know. And if not, >>=20 >> RTR: " A format_identifier value has been registered for ULE [ULE1]. T= his > 32 >> bit number has a hexadecimal value of 0x554C4531. Transport Streams t= hat >> use the ULE format defined in this document SHALL insert a descriptor = with >> this value in the Program Map Table (PMT) ES_info descriptor loop." >>=20 >>=20 >> Adam Goldberg >> Director, Television Standards & Policy Development >> Sharp Laboratories of America >> 8605 Westwood Center Drive, Suite 206 >> Vienna, VA=A0 22182 >> 703-556-4406 >> 703-556-4410 fax >> 571-276-0305 cell >> =A0 >>=20 >>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk] = On >>> Behalf Of Allison, Art >>> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:06 PM >>> To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk >>> Subject: RE: Proposed Changes to ULE text - Format descriptors for SI >>> signalling >>>=20 >>> If the insertion is not mandatory, one cannot rely upon its presence. >>> If not present, how is a conflict with another private use that has a >>> structure that is close to ULE prevented/resolved. >>>=20 >>> Recommend RTR: " Transport Streams that utilise the Programme Map Tab= le >>> (PMT) >>> defined in ISO 13818-1 [ISO-MPEG2] and that use the ULE >>> format defined in this document, SHALL insert a descriptor with >>> this value in the PMT ES_info descriptor loop." >>> __________________ >>> Art Allison >>> Director, Advanced Engineering >>> NAB Science & Technology >>> 1771 N St NW, Washington DC 20036 >>> 202 429 5418 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk] >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 2:47 PM >>> To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk >>> Subject: Re: Proposed Changes to ULE text - Format descriptors for SI >>> signalling >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> After receiving a few suggestions, I now propose better text for the >>> description of the format identifier: >>>=20 >>> Page 3, Section 1 (Introduction): >>> AFTER: >>> "The MPEG-2 specification [ISO-MPEG2] requires conformant TS >>> Multiplexes to provide Program Specific Information (PSI) for >>> each stream in the TS Multiplex. Other MPEG-2 based transmission >>> standards may also define Service Information (SI)." >>> ^ INSERT BLANK >>> LINE AND NEW PARAGRAPH after the above: >>> "A format_identifier value has been registered for ULE [ULE1]. >>> This 32 bit number has a hexadecimal value of 0x554C4531. >>> Transport Streams that utilise the Programme Map Table (PMT) >>> defined in ISO 13818-1 [ISO-MPEG2] and that use the ULE >>> format defined in this document, SHOULD insert a descriptor with >>> this value in the PMT ES_info descriptor loop." >>>=20 >>> Best wishes, >>>=20 >>> Gorry >>>=20 >>> Gorry Fairhurst wrote: >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> The ULE Spec is now completing IESG review, and will soon be ready f= or >>>=20 >>>> publishing as an RFC. With this in mind, the authors of ULE have >>>> progressed with registering a code-point for the SI that describes >>> ULE. >>>> They propose an update the ULE Spec to include the appropriate text >>>> describing this, prior to publication as an RFC. >>>>=20 >>>> As I see it, there are three threads to this process - ISO format_id= ; >>>> DVB data_broadcast_id; and stream_type. >>>>=20 >>>> Please send thoughts on any or all of the points below to the mailin= g >>>> list... >>>>=20 >>>> Best wishes, >>>>=20 >>>> gorry >>>>=20 >>>> ----- >>>> 1) Format ID >>>>=20 >>>> Proposed additional text for ULE RFC to specify what to do with PMTs >>>> on page 3: >>>>=20 >>>> Old: >>>> "The MPEG-2 specification [ISO-MPEG2] requires conformant TS >>>> Multiplexes to provide Program Specific Information (PSI) for >>>> each stream in the TS Multiplex. Other MPEG-2 based transmission >>>> standards may also define Service Information (SI)." >>>>=20 >>>> New: >>>> "The MPEG-2 specification [ISO-MPEG2] requires conformant TS >>>> Multiplexes to provide Program Specific Information (PSI) for >>>> each stream in the TS Multiplex. Other MPEG-2 based transmission >>>> standards may also define Service Information (SI). >>>>=20 >>>> "A format_identifier value has been registered with the SMPTE RA >>>> [ULE1], for ULE. This has the hexadecimal value 0x554C4531 >>>> ("ULE1"). Transport Streams that utilise the Programme >>>> Map Table (PMT) defined in ISO 13818-1 and that use the ULE >>>> format defined in this document, SHOULD insert a descriptor with >>>> this value in the PMT ES_info descriptor loop." >>>>=20 >>>> Add: >>>> [ULE1] Registration for format_identifier ULE1, SMPTE Registration >>>> Authority, LLC, http://www.smpte-ra.org/ule1.html. >>>>=20 >>>> ----- >>>> 2) Data broadcast descriptor >>>>=20 >>>> Although this was proposed at the last IETF meeting and via the >>>> mailing list, this has not currently been progressed. We can not >>>> currently see a specific need for this descriptor for ULE streams - >>>> the conventional use of the descriptor for MPEG Tables makes this le= ss >>>=20 >>>> appropriate than (1) as a general-purpose method. A registration for >>>> ULE could still be done (before or after publishing the ULE RFC). Is >>> there a need to do this now? >>>>=20 >>>> ----- >>>> 3) Stream Type >>>>=20 >>>> As I understand, stream_type values are not normatively assigned by >>>> ISO, but conventions are documented by DVB and ATSC. We propose to >>>> continue to progress with requesting a value for ULE (starting with >>>> ATSC). It is not clear to me that the value needs to be specified in >>>> the published RFC - what do others think? >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Sun Jul 31 19:25:58 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1DzNBt-0002Jh-Vw for ipdvb-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:25:58 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA25166 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:25:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk ([139.133.204.82] helo=erg.abdn.ac.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DzNi4-0005v5-3j for ipdvb-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:59:12 -0400 Received: from dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6VNJ6I3014321 for ; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 00:19:06 +0100 (BST) Received: (from majordomo.lists@localhost) by dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.12.2/Submit) id j6VNJ6vL014320 for ipdvb-subscribed-users; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 00:19:06 +0100 (BST) X-Authentication-Warning: dee.erg.abdn.ac.uk: majordomo.lists set sender to owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk using -f Received: from sharplabs.com (keymaster.sharplabs.com [216.65.151.107]) by erg.abdn.ac.uk (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j6VNJ1hq014301 for ; Mon, 1 Aug 2005 00:19:02 +0100 (BST) Received: from admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com (admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com [172.29.225.253]) by sharplabs.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j6VNIuZF025943 for ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:18:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by admsrvnt02.enet.sharplabs.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:20:17 -0700 Message-ID: <08259490B3BC3140B549DD0907A5644822C4FE@admsrvnt10.enet.sharplabs.com> From: "Goldberg, Adam" To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: RE: Proposed Changes to ULE text - Format descriptors for SI sign alling Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:08:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-ERG-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by erg.abdn.ac.uk id j6VNJ6UV014317 Sender: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk X-ERG-MailScanner-From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by erg.abdn.ac.uk id j6VNJ6I3014321 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a4e5f67c5e230eddf754446d1a2201a4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My point was thus: You should not call a sequence of TS packets a "transport stream" unless it is one. It is not a Transport Stream unless= it has conformant PSI. Adam Goldberg Director, Television Standards & Policy Development=20 Sharp Laboratories of America=20 8605 Westwood Center Drive, Suite 206=20 Vienna, VA=A0 22182=20 (703) 556-4406=20 (703) 556-4410 fax -----Original Message----- From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk] On Behalf Of Gorry Fairhurst Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 4:26 PM To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk Subject: Re: Proposed Changes to ULE text - Format descriptors for SI sig= n alling See in-line, On 31/7/05 9:02 pm, "Goldberg, Adam" wrote: > Sorry, but I feel a need to be pedantic. >=20 > See ISO/IEC 13818-1 =A72.4.1. A Transport Stream consists of "... one = or more > programs ...". Also, "The Program Map Table, in Table 2-28, specifies, > among other information, which PIDs, and therefore which elementary streams > are associated to form each program." >=20 So, the document says in the paragraph before: The MPEG-2 specification [ISO-MPEG2] requires conformant TS Multiplexes to provide Program Specific Information (PSI) for each stream in the TS Multiplex. Other MPEG-2 based transmission standards may also define Service Information (SI). > Therefore, if there aren't one or more "programs" (defined as a "collection > or program elements", where "program elements" means elementary streams= ), or > if there isn't a Program Map Table that specifies which elementary stre= ams > are associated with the (one or more) program(s), it isn't a "MPEG-2 > Transport Stream". Just because it uses MPEG-2 Transport Stream packet= s, > that doesn't make it a Transport Stream. Therefore, conformant ISO 13818-1 TS do carry PMT tables, in which the UL= E Format descriptors SHOULD be included for the ULE streams. The IETF defines (in RFC2119) that SHOULD, means "that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a particular item, but the full implications must be understood and carefully weighed before choosing a different course". In this case, it means "implement this" or the implication may be that th= e stream is dropped by a TS multiplexor that does not recognise it. Gorry > Adam Goldberg > Director, Television Standards & Policy Development > Sharp Laboratories of America > 8605 Westwood Center Drive, Suite 206 > Vienna, VA=A0 22182 > (703) 556-4406=20 > (703) 556-4410 fax >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk] On > Behalf Of Gorry Fairhurst > Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 7:24 AM > To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Proposed Changes to ULE text - Format descriptors for SI s= ign > alling >=20 > On 29/7/05 11:44 pm, "Goldberg, Adam" wrote: >=20 >> Are there transport streams (in IETF-land) WITHOUT PMT? >=20 > Indeed there are. >=20 > There are many possible topologies for MPEG-2 Transmission Networks, se= e > section 3.1 of: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-04.txt >=20 > In some specific scenarios, there are "transport streams" that go strai= ght > from the ipdvb gateway/encapsulator, are modulated/broadcast and then > received by a Receiver/Router (i.e., for example they are never > "remultiplexed", and have no specific need for a PMT). These can use ot= her > methods to configure PID usage. >=20 > Gorry >=20 >> If so, I'd like to know. And if not, >>=20 >> RTR: " A format_identifier value has been registered for ULE [ULE1]. T= his > 32 >> bit number has a hexadecimal value of 0x554C4531. Transport Streams t= hat >> use the ULE format defined in this document SHALL insert a descriptor with >> this value in the Program Map Table (PMT) ES_info descriptor loop." >>=20 >>=20 >> Adam Goldberg >> Director, Television Standards & Policy Development >> Sharp Laboratories of America >> 8605 Westwood Center Drive, Suite 206 >> Vienna, VA=A0 22182 >> 703-556-4406 >> 703-556-4410 fax >> 571-276-0305 cell >> =A0 >>=20 >>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk] = On >>> Behalf Of Allison, Art >>> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:06 PM >>> To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk >>> Subject: RE: Proposed Changes to ULE text - Format descriptors for SI >>> signalling >>>=20 >>> If the insertion is not mandatory, one cannot rely upon its presence. >>> If not present, how is a conflict with another private use that has a >>> structure that is close to ULE prevented/resolved. >>>=20 >>> Recommend RTR: " Transport Streams that utilise the Programme Map Tab= le >>> (PMT) >>> defined in ISO 13818-1 [ISO-MPEG2] and that use the ULE >>> format defined in this document, SHALL insert a descriptor with >>> this value in the PMT ES_info descriptor loop." >>> __________________ >>> Art Allison >>> Director, Advanced Engineering >>> NAB Science & Technology >>> 1771 N St NW, Washington DC 20036 >>> 202 429 5418 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk [mailto:owner-ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk] >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 2:47 PM >>> To: ipdvb@erg.abdn.ac.uk >>> Subject: Re: Proposed Changes to ULE text - Format descriptors for SI >>> signalling >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> After receiving a few suggestions, I now propose better text for the >>> description of the format identifier: >>>=20 >>> Page 3, Section 1 (Introduction): >>> AFTER: >>> "The MPEG-2 specification [ISO-MPEG2] requires conformant TS >>> Multiplexes to provide Program Specific Information (PSI) for >>> each stream in the TS Multiplex. Other MPEG-2 based transmission >>> standards may also define Service Information (SI)." >>> ^ INSERT BLANK >>> LINE AND NEW PARAGRAPH after the above: >>> "A format_identifier value has been registered for ULE [ULE1]. >>> This 32 bit number has a hexadecimal value of 0x554C4531. >>> Transport Streams that utilise the Programme Map Table (PMT) >>> defined in ISO 13818-1 [ISO-MPEG2] and that use the ULE >>> format defined in this document, SHOULD insert a descriptor with >>> this value in the PMT ES_info descriptor loop." >>>=20 >>> Best wishes, >>>=20 >>> Gorry >>>=20 >>> Gorry Fairhurst wrote: >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> The ULE Spec is now completing IESG review, and will soon be ready f= or >>>=20 >>>> publishing as an RFC. With this in mind, the authors of ULE have >>>> progressed with registering a code-point for the SI that describes >>> ULE. >>>> They propose an update the ULE Spec to include the appropriate text >>>> describing this, prior to publication as an RFC. >>>>=20 >>>> As I see it, there are three threads to this process - ISO format_id= ; >>>> DVB data_broadcast_id; and stream_type. >>>>=20 >>>> Please send thoughts on any or all of the points below to the mailin= g >>>> list... >>>>=20 >>>> Best wishes, >>>>=20 >>>> gorry >>>>=20 >>>> ----- >>>> 1) Format ID >>>>=20 >>>> Proposed additional text for ULE RFC to specify what to do with PMTs >>>> on page 3: >>>>=20 >>>> Old: >>>> "The MPEG-2 specification [ISO-MPEG2] requires conformant TS >>>> Multiplexes to provide Program Specific Information (PSI) for >>>> each stream in the TS Multiplex. Other MPEG-2 based transmission >>>> standards may also define Service Information (SI)." >>>>=20 >>>> New: >>>> "The MPEG-2 specification [ISO-MPEG2] requires conformant TS >>>> Multiplexes to provide Program Specific Information (PSI) for >>>> each stream in the TS Multiplex. Other MPEG-2 based transmission >>>> standards may also define Service Information (SI). >>>>=20 >>>> "A format_identifier value has been registered with the SMPTE RA >>>> [ULE1], for ULE. This has the hexadecimal value 0x554C4531 >>>> ("ULE1"). Transport Streams that utilise the Programme >>>> Map Table (PMT) defined in ISO 13818-1 and that use the ULE >>>> format defined in this document, SHOULD insert a descriptor with >>>> this value in the PMT ES_info descriptor loop." >>>>=20 >>>> Add: >>>> [ULE1] Registration for format_identifier ULE1, SMPTE Registration >>>> Authority, LLC, http://www.smpte-ra.org/ule1.html. >>>>=20 >>>> ----- >>>> 2) Data broadcast descriptor >>>>=20 >>>> Although this was proposed at the last IETF meeting and via the >>>> mailing list, this has not currently been progressed. We can not >>>> currently see a specific need for this descriptor for ULE streams - >>>> the conventional use of the descriptor for MPEG Tables makes this le= ss >>>=20 >>>> appropriate than (1) as a general-purpose method. A registration for >>>> ULE could still be done (before or after publishing the ULE RFC). Is >>> there a need to do this now? >>>>=20 >>>> ----- >>>> 3) Stream Type >>>>=20 >>>> As I understand, stream_type values are not normatively assigned by >>>> ISO, but conventions are documented by DVB and ATSC. We propose to >>>> continue to progress with requesting a value for ULE (starting with >>>> ATSC). It is not clear to me that the value needs to be specified in >>>> the published RFC - what do others think? >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20