Subject: Draft Minutes for ipdvb at IETF-63, Paris.

From: Gorry Fairhurst <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 16:20:13 +0100

Draft copies of the minutes.

As ever, thanks to Joerg for doing a draft copy!

This year, we didn't have the audio archive - and so my edit and updates are 
therefore also inserted from handwritten notes, rather than a recording.

Please do check and see if there are any mistakes. Let have any corrections asap!

Best wishes,

Gorry

--

Minutes of IP over Digital Video Broadcast WG (ipdvb)
=====================================================

CHAIR: Gorry Fairhurst <[email-masked]>

Minutes reported by Jörg Ott <[email-masked]>.

The IPDVB WG met once at the 63rd IETF (3 August 2005, 1030-1230). The meeting 
was chaired by Gorry Fairhurst.  The proposed agenda was accepted, no 
additions were made.  A tentatively scheduled presentation from Fraunhofer 
Gesellschaft  (draft-miloucheva-udlr-mipv6-00.txt ) was cancelled, because no 
presenter was available.

Document Status
---------------

The chair reported on the document status: Two documents are in the RFC editor 
queue: draft-ietf-ipdvb-ule-06 (for Proposed Standard) and 
draft-ietf-ipdvb-arch-04 (for Informational). No other documents are in the 
IETF process beyond discussion in the WG.

There is one active WG draft, draft-ietf-ipdvb-ar-00.txt which had superseded 
  draft-fair-ipdvb-ar-03.txt.

Further drafts to be discussed at the meeting include
draft-stiemerling-ipdvb-config-01.txt
draft-cruickshank-ipdvb-sec-00.txt,
draft-cantillo-ipdvb-s2encaps-00.txt, and
draft-bormann-rohc-over-802-01.txt.

On the ROHC draft, Carsten Bormann noted that only one minor problem still 
remains to be solved for the Ethernet case: to get a number assigned.  Then 
one can define a protocol to negotiate the context. A future draft could 
potentially address both ULE and Ethernet, and for ULE this could piggyback on 
whatever config approach IPDVB will take.  The present draft -01 will remain 
active.

Volunteers are required  to progress the address resolution protocol and 
perhaps to to revive draft-montpetit-ipdvb-config-00.txt, expired.

Gorry reviewed the WG milestones noting a new  WG draft on AR process, but 
that there was currently no WG document for address resolution protocol (was 
supposed to be available as -00 in Feb 2005).  The deadline has been postponed 
with agreement from the Area Director.

Uni-directional Lightweight Encapsulation
-----------------------------------------
draft-ietf-ipdvb-ule-06.txt

Gorry Fairhurst present a brief update on the ULE spec.  Revision -05 was 
submitted to the IESG. Revision -06, that was published recently, has the 
comments of the IESG review folded in.  Refer to the slides for a detailed 
list of changes.  Gorry pointed out a substantial change regarding the IANA 
registration procedures.  He also pointed at the new document title: it 
changed from "Ultra-Lightweight Encapsulation" to "Uni-directional Lightweight 
Encapsulation".  A comment was made that ULE should also applicable to DVB-RCS 
and is thus not limited to uni-directional communications.  There were 
suggestions on finding a better expansion of the letter "U" in the spec's 
title, but this is not felt to be serious and the new name was accepted.

Gorry noted also that until recently, ULE had not defined a 
"format_identifier" that would be needed in the context of an MPEG TS 
multiplex to identify the ULE stream in the SI signalling.  The value 
0x554C4531 has now been assigned for use with ULE by SMPTE (the  ISO registry 
for SI  values).  Similar registration requests could be
made for a "Stream_Type" where registries are maintained by DVB, and ATSC. 
It was also possible to consider allocating a "Data_broadcast_ID", although 
this was normally used with table sections, and therefore was necessarily 
appropriate to ULE.  If there is a strong  desire for a "Data_broadcast_ID", 
this should be taken to the list.

Finally, Gorry provided an update on ULE implementations: various commercial 
and open source receivers are available at this point but only commercial 
gateways (i.e., senders).  Some at the meeting noted  that the European IST 
project Daidalos is developing an implementation with the work carried out by 
Fraunhofer Gesellschaft; however, Gorry was unable to say whether or not the 
result will be open source.  Information about known  implementations can be 
found at
http://www.erg.abdn.ac.uk/ipdvb/ipdvb-impl.html and implementers are 
encouraged to provide additional/updated information regarding this page.

Address Resolution
------------------
draft-ietf-ipdvb-ar-00.txt

Gorry briefly reported behalf of Marie-José Montpetit.  Address resolution is 
about associating IPv4/IPv6 addresses with an MPEG-2 TS.The draft was adopted 
as a WG document and recent changes reflect much previous input from the UDLR 
WG, various nits, and a major reorganisation  of the the sections.  Further 
details are in the slides.

Gorry strongly encouraged input from the group on a number of intended future 
changes (also listed in the slides).

IP Address Configuration for ipdvb
----------------------------------
draft-stiemerling-ipdvb-config-01.txt

Martin Stiemerling gave a short intro to the draft's history and then 
proceeded to summarise the changes to the draft (see slides).  He rehashed the 
problem space as well as the network and configuration scenarios (already 
introduced at the last IETF).  Agreement within the group is needed on these 
issues and so he solicits feedback in order to proceed.  One question from the 
audience was raised: why not simply use IPv6 autoconfig?  Martin responded 
that there is a potential stability issue as IPDVB may be faced with 10s of 
thousands of receivers, and that other parameters (not currently specified by 
the NDP) may be required.  Martin concluded, stating that a new draft will be 
available in the Sep/Oct timeframe.

ULE Security Extension
----------------------
draft-cruickshank-ipdvb-sec-00.txt

Haitham Cruikshank presented some proposed security extensions for ULE, a 
subject that was already raised at the last IETF,  but no feedback was 
received on the list afterwards.  He noted that there had been a parallel 
presentation in the MSEC WG (which could provide appropriate review for the 
key-management functions).  He briefly reviewed the comments received on this 
matter at the last IETF meeting (see slides and minutes from the 62nd IETF) 
and gave an overview of the changes.  He proceeded with a motivation for ULE 
security and requirements for IP over MPEG-2 TS (see slides 3 and 4).  In 
particular, he stated that the ULE security shall not be a replacement for 
security at other layers and shall help to maintain transparency with 
Performance Enhancing Proxies (PEPs).  Haitham went ahead to discuss the 
proposed approach (see slides 5--8) and then suggested future plans for the 
next revision (slide 9).

There was discussion about the number of keys that would need to be managed, 
and Haitham was asked if all entities shared a single key? - Haitham noted 
that the proposal could live with a only single key at each receiver for all 
unicast flows sent to a receiver, and perhaps one key per flow (as in msec) 
for multicast flows. There was discussion about whether one key for all 
receivers was possible, which  provoked doubt
in the audience that this was really advantageous.

Looking at the proposed packet format and the presentation, Steve Bellovin 
noted that authentication of the source of data was essential.  In practice, 
this required at least a sequence number and a crypto integrity check.  He 
affirmed that using only a single key for all the network traffic was a 
mistake as this would make attacks on confidentiality much easier.

With reference to the sample ULE packet format a question was raised
which part of it would be encrypted.  Haitham responded that this is
the "SNDU payload", potentially including arbitrary inner extension headers.

Haitham pointed out that the approach chosen allows also non-IP packets to be 
secured by ULE.  A comment from the MSEC WG was made whether or not IP-based 
key management could also be used for non-IP packets -- which Haitham 
confirmed: this was explicitly included in the current requirements.

Steve Bellovin  asked if there was a method defined that would allow the SID 
to be applied to non-IP traffic, because current IPsec relies on port numbers, 
etc to define the flows within the Security Policy Database (SPD). New 
entries/methods would be required if layer 2 frames were be to encrypted. He 
also urged caution regarding multicast traffic.  In particular, he argued that 
a good justification is needed for doing non-IP traffic security in the IETF, 
and that this would need input and review from the Security
Area. Any modifications to the SPD and its use shouldn't be done in an 
Internet Area working group.

He went on to state that the ULE security designers should not make 
simplifying assumptions about capabilities of attackers (hinting at the 
missing HMACs).  He further noted that HMACs are pretty much free (in terms of 
processing, but not protocol overhead) at data rates around 100 Mbit/s.

Joerg Ott raised concerns that the case for the inclusion of security at the 
ULE layer is still not really motivated.  He noted that TCP PEPs could well 
work with IPsec (if just applied at the right point which also applied to ULE 
security).  He encouraged the authors to perform at least a detailed analysis 
of why IPsec cannot/should not be used.

During the discussion, it was noted that two things can be bought by L2 
encryption: some degree of medium access control and prevention of traffic 
analysis (the latter only partially, however, since there is other information 
available).

Margaret Wasserman stated that she was concerned that if the non-IP traffic 
required a new infrastructure, then  this may not be appropriate work for the 
group.  If the group decided to go with IP traffic only, IPsec key management 
may be appropriate.  She also noted that the authors seemed to be looking for 
something in between - were bridging and IP traffic equally important?  At the 
moment, she is not sure whether there is something to work on.

People are encouraged to look into this problem since it requires a broad 
analysis, and a separate requirements document (as an I-D) would be the best 
way forward, so that the WG can understand the issues to be addressed. This 
also will allow the ADs to understand the motivation/needs/objectives. Steve 
volunteered to help understand the threat analysis and would send some 
references as a starting point to the authors.

IP Encapsulation for DVB-S.2
----------------------------
draft-cantillo-ipdvb-s2encaps-00.txt

Jérome Lacan presented some requirements for transmission of IP datagrams over 
DVB-S2 (see slides).  He gave a quick overview of DVB-S2 and particularly the 
available framing formats.  Besides MPEG TS, DVB-S2 will also allow for 
"generic streams" that are IP friendly and do no longer require fixed-size 
frames.  While, for IP encapsulation, IP over ULE/PPoE via MPEG TS over DVB-S2 
is possible, no choice had been made for  adaptation layer using the Generic 
Stream.  Moreover, the capabilities of generic streams suggest the development 
of a new adaptation layer.  Jérome presents some basic ideas and issues to 
that end (see slides).

Joerg Ott remarks that TU Braunschweig is working on an all-IP encapsulation 
(without ULE/PPoE) for DVB.  Gorry said a number of other people had also 
voiced interest and on-going projects in this area to the ipdvb list. Rod 
Walsh pointed out that the definition of such an adaptation layer could be 
completely out of scope. Instead of pursuing this work in the IETF, it may 
also be possible to provide input to DVB.

Gorry Fairhurst said that he was aware of the parallel work within DVB-GBS, 
and the work in an ad-hoc WG on the design of a new encapsulation. There was a 
good liaison with this group. He said this work had proved more difficult than 
first envisaged, and that there were complex dependencies between the physical 
layer needs and the IP network functions.  These were not yet well understood, 
and a clear definition of the requirements would be good for all. The ad-hoc 
group responsible for this work were aware of this draft, and of the 
discussions within the ipdvb list.

Gorry Fairhurst asked whether a DVB-S2 mechanism should be something 
completely different or some adaptation of ULE?  Jérome does not see a 
necessity for a completely different approach, but also indicates that ULE is 
not directly applicable for cases with no MPEG-2 TS, as in DVB-S2.

An inquiry from the chair showed that few in the room had read (or was aware) 
of the draft.  So, he urged the group to read and comment on it.  The draft 
will be updated in September.

Review of Milestones
--------------------

Finally, Gorry Fairhurst returned to the status of the milestones (see above) 
and strongly urged the group to provide input on the address resolution as 
this is now the most pressing work item.