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From: "edmon pamela" <_ahmed3@abefurniture.com>
To: <ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Subject: ***SPAM*** 79.387 (5) Super-lover 2008!
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 *  3.5 BAYES_99 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 99 to 100%
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 *   10 URIBL_SC_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the SC SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: ceutyes.com]
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 *      [URIs: ceutyes.com]
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From: "Cameron Argabright" <Cameron-preizarf@RpModel.com>
To: ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org
Subject: ***SPAM*** 99.165 (5) Carry yourself with confidence - get your new
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 *  3.5 BAYES_99 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 99 to 100%
 *      [score: 1.0000]
 *  1.1 HELO_EQ_IP_ADDR HELO using IP Address (not private)
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 *  0.1 RDNS_NONE Delivered to trusted network by a host with no rDNS
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Message-ID: <000d01c864b2$55ac4a50$8a6c7b59@cmobile>
From: "Hae LeCraw" <_pranzate@RpModel.com>
To: ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org
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From jraines@cpmg.org  Fri Feb  1 02:52:36 2008
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 *  3.5 BAYES_99 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 99 to 100%
 *      [score: 1.0000]
 *  1.4 HOST_EQ_USERONOCOM HOST_EQ_USERONOCOM
 *  0.8 FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D Host starts with d-d-d-d
 *  3.5 HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP Relay HELO'd using suspicious hostname (Split
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 *  1.1 HELO_EQ_IP_ADDR HELO using IP Address (not private)
 *  0.9 FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB Host is d-d-d-d
 *  4.4 HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2 Relay HELO'd using suspicious hostname (IP addr
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 *  4.3 RCVD_FORGED_WROTE2 RCVD_FORGED_WROTE2
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 *  2.1 RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO Received: contains an IP address used for HELO
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 *  2.3 MANGLED_ENLARG BODY: mangled enlarge(r|s)
 *  0.6 J_CHICKENPOX_31 BODY: 3alpha-pock-1alpha
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 *  1.6 HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24 BODY: HTML: images with 2000-2400 bytes of words
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 *      [URIs: domizu.com]
 *   10 URIBL_JP_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the JP SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: domizu.com]
 *   10 URIBL_OB_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the OB SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: domizu.com]
 *  1.1 URIBL_RHS_DOB Contains an URI of a new domain (Day Old Bread)
 *      [URIs: domizu.com]
 *  3.0 RCVD_IN_XBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus XBL
 *      [81.172.36.58 listed in zen.spamhaus.org]
 *  0.9 RCVD_IN_PBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus PBL
 *  0.9 RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL RBL: SORBS: sent directly from dynamic IP address
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 *   10 FM_BIG_REASON Lot's of CAP words, BIG, REASON, BEST
 *  0.1 RDNS_DYNAMIC Delivered to trusted network by host with
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 * -2.4 AWL AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list
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Message-ID: <073601c864c0$98112ce0$3a24ac51@Christoper>
From: "Christoper Calderon" <Christoper@cpmg.org>
To: "Anibal Rosa" <ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Subject: ***SPAM*** 114.752 (5) Incredible results just in few weeks!
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 11:52:52 +0100
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In just a few short weeks, you`ll watch with amazement=20
as your phallus grows into the hardest, biggest, ,thickest and most power=
ful tool=20
you`ve ever imagined - the one you`ve constantly wanted about=20
having! No pen!s en`l@rgement system is faster, easier to use, or=20
more effective than VPXL+ - THE BEST}!


VPXL+ IS GUARANTEED TO EN`L@RGE & STRENGTHEN YOUR=20
PHALLUS OR YOUR MONEY BACK - PERIOD! SO WHY WAIT? GET=20
VPXL+ AND LIVE LARGE TODAY!

TRY IS TODAY TO MAKE YOUR PEN|S BIGGER AND HARDER IN THIS YEAR!
http://domizu=2Ecom/

most importantly when, but the theory told him where to point hishis Geig=
er counter=2E It did not tell him what to aim it at precisely, orof world=
 events and world processes=2E His European background
except for Soros, of course, who was permitted by the funds rules toAnd G=
eorge Soros would become head of the greatest hedge fund
------=_NextPart_1844_079E_01C864C8.F9D594E0
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        charset="us-ascii"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4=2E0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6=2E00=2E2800=2E1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY><A href=3D"http://domizu=2Ecom/"><IMG style=3D"WIDTH: 550px; HEIGHT=
: 450px" src=3D"http://81=2E222=2E138=2E69/img/dfhsdfg478-55=2Egif" borde=
r=3D0></A>
<BR><B><FONT face=3D"Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><FONT color=3D=
#0066ff size=3D1><FONT size=3D2>MAXIMIZE YOUR GROWTH, PERFORMANCE & STREN=
GTH <br>WITH THIS REVOLUTIONARY PEN|S EN'L@RGEMENT BREAKTHROUGH! </FONT><=
/FONT></B>
<BR><FONT face=3D"Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=3D1><BR>In =
just a few short weeks, you`ll watch with amazement as
your phallus <BR>grows into the hardest, biggest, ,thickest and most powe=
rful tool <BR>you`ve ever imagined - the one you`ve constantly wanted abo=
ut
<BR>having! No pen!s en`l@rgement system is faster, easier to use, or <BR=
>more effective than <STRONG>VPXL+ - THE BEST!
</STRONG> <BR><FONT face=3D"Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=3D=
1><BR><STRONG>VPXL+ IS <FONT color=3D#0066ff>
GUARANTEED TO EN`L@RGE &amp; STRENGTHEN YOUR <BR>PHALLUS OR YOUR MONEY BA=
CK - PERIOD!</FONT> SO WHY WAIT? GET <BR>
VPXL+ AND LIVE LARGE TODAY!</STRONG> </FONT></FONT><BR><BR><A href=3D"htt=
p://domizu=2Ecom/"><B>
<FONT face=3D"Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><FONT color=3D#ae0b0=
b><U><FONT size=3D3>TRY IS TODAY TO MAKE YOUR PEN|S BIGGER AND HARDER IN =
THIS YEAR!</FONT></U>
</FONT></FONT></B></A></FONT><BR><BR><BR><HR SIZE=3D1><FONT face=3D"Verda=
na, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">
<FONT size=3D1>76 Putting My Money Where My Mouth WasMarquez would then d=
esign a staged effect, setting aside a certain<BR>Marquez, that was class=
ic George Soros-giving up the battle so that hemost importantly when, but=
 the theory told him where to point his<BR>his Geiger counter=2E It did n=
ot tell him what to aim it at precisely, orof world events and world proc=
esses=2E His European background<BR>except for Soros, of course, who was =
permitted by the funds rules toAnd George Soros would become head of the =
greatest hedge fund</FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_1844_079E_01C864C8.F9D594E0--
From jquilez@anuntis.com  Fri Feb  1 03:37:09 2008
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	tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_99=3.5, FB_PENIS=1.66, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451,
	FRT_PENIS1=3.592, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546,
	HTML_MESSAGE=1, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_31=0.6,
	J_CHICKENPOX_74=0.6, MANGLED_ENLARG=2.3, MANGLED_ENLGMN=5,
	MANGLED_PENIS=2.3, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001,
	RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5,
	RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5,
	RCVD_FORGED_WROTE=2.523, RCVD_FORGED_WROTE2=4.325,
	RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1,
	SARE_ADLTOBFU=0.68, SARE_HTML_A_BODY=0.742, URIBL_BLACK=20,
	URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083,
	URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10]
X-Spam-Report:
 *  3.5 BAYES_99 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 99 to 100%
 *      [score: 1.0000]
 *  1.5 FH_RELAY_NODNS We could not determine your Reverse DNS
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 *  2.5 RCVD_FORGED_WROTE Forged 'Received' header found ('wrote:' spam)
 *  2.3 MANGLED_PENIS BODY: mangled - Penis
 *  0.7 SARE_ADLTOBFU BODY: Contains OBFU adult material
 *  3.6 FRT_PENIS1 BODY: ReplaceTags: Penis
 *  5.0 MANGLED_ENLGMN BODY: mangled enlargement
 *  1.7 FB_PENIS BODY: FB_PENIS
 *  2.3 MANGLED_ENLARG BODY: mangled enlarge(r|s)
 *  0.6 J_CHICKENPOX_74 BODY: 7alpha-pock-4alpha
 *  0.6 J_CHICKENPOX_31 BODY: 3alpha-pock-1alpha
 *  0.0 NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP URI: Uses a dotted-decimal IP address in URL
 *  1.5 HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20 BODY: HTML: images with 1600-2000 bytes of words
 *  1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message
 *  0.7 SARE_HTML_A_BODY FULL: Message body has very strange HTML sequence
 *  1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 8 confidence level
 *      above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CHECK Listed in Razor2 (http://razor.sf.net/)
 *  1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 4 confidence level
 *      above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100 Razor2 gives confidence level above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *   20 URIBL_BLACK Contains an URL listed in the URIBL blacklist
 *      [URIs: domizu.com]
 *   10 URIBL_WS_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the WS SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: domizu.com]
 *   10 URIBL_JP_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the JP SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: domizu.com]
 *   10 URIBL_OB_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the OB SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: domizu.com]
 *   10 URIBL_SC_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the SC SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: domizu.com]
 *  1.1 URIBL_RHS_DOB Contains an URI of a new domain (Day Old Bread)
 *      [URIs: domizu.com]
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 *  3.0 RCVD_IN_XBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus XBL
 *      [62.118.172.2 listed in zen.spamhaus.org]
 *  0.0 HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3 HTML is very short with a linked image
 *  0.1 RDNS_NONE Delivered to trusted network by a host with no rDNS
 *  0.6 HELO_MISMATCH_COM HELO_MISMATCH_COM
 * -0.3 AWL AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list
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Message-ID: <02b101c864c6$fe112da0$3e76ac02@Sheryl>
From: "Sheryl Rainey" <Sheryl@anuntis.com>
To: "Mamie Norwood" <ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
Subject: ***SPAM*** 102.25 (5) Make your phallus bigger and more solid!
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 14:38:40 +0300
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In just a few short weeks, you`ll watch with amazement=20
as your pen!s grows into the thickest, biggest, hardest, and most powerfu=
l tool=20
you`ve ever imagined - the one you`ve always fantasized about=20
having! No pen!s en`l@rgement system is faster, easier to use, or=20
more effective than VPXL+ - FOREVER}!


VPXL+ IS GUARANTEED TO EN`L@RGE & STRENGTHEN YOUR=20
PHALLUS OR YOUR MONEY BACK - PERIOD! SO WHY WAIT? GET=20
VPXL+ AND LIVE LARGE TODAY!

TRY IS TODAY TO MAKE YOUR PEN|S BIGGER AND HARDER IN THIS YEAR!
http://domizu=2Ecom/

the time of their detention and that the sailors "haveteams, scoring 3 po=
wer play goals and 1 shorthandedMass wedding held against racism in Belgi=
um
2007 Cricket World Cup: Bangladesh vs Bermuda"They're faced with a wall o=
f silence," Marin said=2E "The
------=_NextPart_687_0319_01C864E0.235E65A0
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        charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4=2E0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6=2E00=2E2800=2E1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY><A href=3D"http://domizu=2Ecom/"><IMG style=3D"WIDTH: 550px; HEIGHT=
: 450px" src=3D"http://81=2E222=2E138=2E69/img/dfhsdfg478-55=2Egif" borde=
r=3D0></A>
<BR><B><FONT face=3D"Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><FONT color=3D=
#0066ff size=3D1><FONT size=3D2>MAXIMIZE YOUR GROWTH, PERFORMANCE & STREN=
GTH <br>WITH THIS REVOLUTIONARY PEN|S EN'L@RGEMENT BREAKTHROUGH! </FONT><=
/FONT></B>
<BR><FONT face=3D"Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=3D1><BR>In =
just a few short weeks, you`ll watch with amazement as
your pen!s <BR>grows into the thickest, biggest, hardest, and most powerf=
ul tool <BR>you`ve ever imagined - the one you`ve always fantasized about=

<BR>having! No pen!s en`l@rgement system is faster, easier to use, or <BR=
>more effective than <STRONG>VPXL+ - FOREVER!
</STRONG> <BR><FONT face=3D"Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=3D=
1><BR><STRONG>VPXL+ IS <FONT color=3D#0066ff>
GUARANTEED TO EN`L@RGE &amp; STRENGTHEN YOUR <BR>PHALLUS OR YOUR MONEY BA=
CK - PERIOD!</FONT> SO WHY WAIT? GET <BR>
VPXL+ AND LIVE LARGE TODAY!</STRONG> </FONT></FONT><BR><BR><A href=3D"htt=
p://domizu=2Ecom/"><B>
<FONT face=3D"Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><FONT color=3D#ae0b0=
b><U><FONT size=3D3>TRY IS TODAY TO MAKE YOUR PEN|S BIGGER AND HARDER IN =
THIS YEAR!</FONT></U>
</FONT></FONT></B></A></FONT><BR><BR><BR><HR SIZE=3D1><FONT face=3D"Verda=
na, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">
<FONT size=3D1>phone line servicesmagnitude 7=2E1 earthquake off the west=
 coast island of<BR>remaining) in a crucial Group B match - the final gam=
ethe time of their detention and that the sailors "have<BR>teams, scoring=
 3 power play goals and 1 shorthandedMass wedding held against racism in =
Belgium<BR>2007 Cricket World Cup: Bangladesh vs Bermuda"They're faced wi=
th a wall of silence," Marin said=2E "The</FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_687_0319_01C864E0.235E65A0--
From lex8debra74@4m-milano.com  Fri Feb  1 04:34:32 2008
Return-Path: <lex8debra74@4m-milano.com>
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	tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DOS_OE_TO_MX=2.75, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597,
	FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, FS_REPLICA=0.994,
	GB_ROLEX=5, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, PRICES_ARE_AFFORDABLE=0.001,
	RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5,
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	RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619,
	RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX=1.666, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_REP=1.666,
	URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10,
	URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10,
	URIBL_WS_SURBL=10]
X-Spam-Report:
 *  3.5 BAYES_99 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 99 to 100%
 *      [score: 1.0000]
 *  0.8 FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D Host starts with d-d-d-d
 *  2.4 HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR Relay HELO'd using suspicious hostname (IP addr
 *      1)
 *  1.6 FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D Helo is d-d-d-d
 *  1.0 FS_REPLICA Subject says "replica"
 *  0.0 PRICES_ARE_AFFORDABLE BODY: Message says that prices aren't too
 *      expensive
 *  5.0 GB_ROLEX BODY: I don't need a new watch!
 *  1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 8 confidence level
 *      above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CHECK Listed in Razor2 (http://razor.sf.net/)
 *  1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 4 confidence level
 *      above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100 Razor2 gives confidence level above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *   20 URIBL_BLACK Contains an URL listed in the URIBL blacklist
 *      [URIs: tankseat.com]
 *   10 URIBL_AB_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the AB SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: tankseat.com]
 *   10 URIBL_WS_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the WS SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: tankseat.com]
 *   10 URIBL_JP_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the JP SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: tankseat.com]
 *   10 URIBL_OB_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the OB SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: tankseat.com]
 *   10 URIBL_SC_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the SC SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: tankseat.com]
 *  1.1 URIBL_RHS_DOB Contains an URI of a new domain (Day Old Bread)
 *      [URIs: tankseat.com]
 *  2.0 RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET RBL: Received via a relay in bl.spamcop.net
 *      [Blocked - see <http://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?72.45.208.67>]
 *  0.6 RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB RBL: SORBS: sender is a abuseable web server
 *      [72.45.208.67 listed in dnsbl.sorbs.net]
 *  2.0 FM_DDDD_TIMES_2 Dual helo + host eq d_d_d_d
 *  0.1 RDNS_DYNAMIC Delivered to trusted network by host with
 *      dynamic-looking rDNS
 *  1.7 SARE_SPEC_ROLEX Rolex watch spam
 *  1.7 SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_REP Rolex Replica
 *  2.8 DOS_OE_TO_MX Delivered direct to MX with OE headers
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Message-ID: <000901c864cf$06a5e0c7$19dfd6be@ucmqrvw>
From: "dalton wilson" <lex8debra74@4m-milano.com>
To: "Joni Kennedy" <ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Subject: ***SPAM*** 100.126 (5) diamond Replicas, affordable prices rolex
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 10:51:52 +0000
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X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198

The finest of luxury timepieces at the LOWEST prices!!

http://tankseat.com/

From Cleta-naavuttu@attractions.org  Fri Feb  1 04:47:39 2008
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X-Spam-Level: ****************************************************************
X-Spam-Status: Yes, score=110.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DOS_OE_TO_MX=2.75, HELO_EQ_IP_ADDR=1.119,
	HOST_EQ_BROADBND=1.118, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, HTML_MESSAGE=1,
	RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5,
	RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905,
	RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10,
	URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10,
	URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10,
	URIBL_WS_SURBL=10]
X-Spam-Report:
 *  3.5 BAYES_99 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 99 to 100%
 *      [score: 1.0000]
 *  1.1 HOST_EQ_BROADBND HOST_EQ_BROADBND
 *  1.1 HELO_EQ_IP_ADDR HELO using IP Address (not private)
 *  0.9 HOST_EQ_CZ HOST_EQ_CZ
 *  1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message
 *  1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 8 confidence level
 *      above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CHECK Listed in Razor2 (http://razor.sf.net/)
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100 Razor2 gives confidence level above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *   20 URIBL_BLACK Contains an URL listed in the URIBL blacklist
 *      [URIs: decidecompany.com]
 *   10 URIBL_AB_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the AB SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: decidecompany.com]
 *   10 URIBL_WS_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the WS SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: decidecompany.com]
 *   10 URIBL_JP_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the JP SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: decidecompany.com]
 *   10 URIBL_OB_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the OB SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: decidecompany.com]
 *   10 URIBL_SC_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the SC SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: decidecompany.com]
 *  1.1 URIBL_RHS_DOB Contains an URI of a new domain (Day Old Bread)
 *      [URIs: decidecompany.com]
 *  0.9 RCVD_IN_PBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus PBL
 *      [83.208.214.166 listed in zen.spamhaus.org]
 *  3.0 RCVD_IN_XBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus XBL
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 *      [83.208.214.166 listed in dnsbl.sorbs.net]
 *   20 URIBL_SBL Contains an URL listed in the SBL blocklist
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From: "Cleta Lyngholm" <Cleta-naavuttu@attractions.org>
To: ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: ***SPAM*** 110.749 (5) musekini
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 13:49:12 +0100
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Amplified Passion and Desire;
Amplified Passion and Desire;
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT Arial size=3D2>Amplified Passion and Desire;</FONT></DIV>
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Desire;</A></BODY></HTML>
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 *      above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
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 *   20 URIBL_BLACK Contains an URL listed in the URIBL blacklist
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 *   10 URIBL_SC_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the SC SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: laughsize.com]
 *  1.1 URIBL_RHS_DOB Contains an URI of a new domain (Day Old Bread)
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 *  0.8 SARE_SUB_MEDICAL_NEWS Spammer subject - medical
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From: "aloysius burton" <-diana@absopulse.com>
To: <ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Subject: ***SPAM*** 85.116 (5) Medical news!
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 12:09:07 +0000
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From Irene-linjanjo@adsensetrainer.com  Fri Feb  1 06:27:28 2008
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	HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP=3.493, HELO_EQ_IP_ADDR=1.119,
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 *      above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CHECK Listed in Razor2 (http://razor.sf.net/)
 *  1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 4 confidence level
 *      above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100 Razor2 gives confidence level above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.9 RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL RBL: SORBS: sent directly from dynamic IP address
 *      [81.184.35.83 listed in dnsbl.sorbs.net]
 *  0.9 RCVD_IN_PBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus PBL
 *      [81.184.35.83 listed in zen.spamhaus.org]
 *   20 URIBL_BLACK Contains an URL listed in the URIBL blacklist
 *      [URIs: bjoogehhy.com]
 *   10 URIBL_WS_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the WS SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: bjoogehhy.com]
 *   10 URIBL_JP_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the JP SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: bjoogehhy.com]
 *   10 URIBL_OB_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the OB SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: bjoogehhy.com]
 *   10 URIBL_SC_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the SC SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: bjoogehhy.com]
 *  2.0 RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET RBL: Received via a relay in bl.spamcop.net
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 *  0.1 RDNS_DYNAMIC Delivered to trusted network by host with
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Message-ID: <000601c864db$ae35b570$5323b851@3cedacff6d74450>
From: "Irene Brinkmann" <Irene-linjanjo@adsensetrainer.com>
To: ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org
Subject: ***SPAM*** 91.194 (5) The end to all your frustration lies here - we
	have the solution to your woes.
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 15:06:46 +0100
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Chicks will be AMAZED by your legendary PROWESS.
----------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C864E4.0FFA1D70
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<STYLE></STYLE>
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<A href=3D"http://www.bjoogehhy.com/">Chicks will be AMAZED by your =
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From lettaveb1997@adsensetrainer.com  Fri Feb  1 06:38:17 2008
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	tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DOS_OE_TO_MX=2.75, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765,
	FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395,
	HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP=3.493, HELO_EQ_IP_ADDR=1.119,
	HOST_EQ_USERONOCOM=1.444, HTML_MESSAGE=1, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5,
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 *  3.5 HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP Relay HELO'd using suspicious hostname (Split
 *      IP)
 *  1.1 HELO_EQ_IP_ADDR HELO using IP Address (not private)
 *  0.9 FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB Host is d-d-d-d
 *  4.4 HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2 Relay HELO'd using suspicious hostname (IP addr
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 *  1.9 TVD_RCVD_IP TVD_RCVD_IP
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 *  1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message
 *  1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 8 confidence level
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 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CHECK Listed in Razor2 (http://razor.sf.net/)
 *  1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 4 confidence level
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 *      [cf: 100]
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Message-ID: <001201c864dc$8f997240$5323b851@3cedacff6d74450>
From: "Sandeep Gow" <lettaveb1997@adsensetrainer.com>
To: ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: ***SPAM*** 81.194 (5) Get a new huge colossal rod by clicking here.
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 15:13:04 +0100
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Chicks will be AMAZED by your legendary PROWESS.
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From DesmondsyrupyBooth@dfwairport.com  Fri Feb  1 07:20:24 2008
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	RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5,
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Message-ID: 13d901c864e2$ce4c6a00$0201a8c0@woodwest1
From: "Solomon Deleon" <DesmondsyrupyBooth@dfwairport.com>
To: <ietf-message-headers-request@lists.ietf.org>
Subject: ***SPAM*** 17.024 (5) Superstar stock report
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 09:57:25 +0500
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No Looking back on 
G&S minerals
Symbol-GSML

Up 4 consecutive days for over 40% in profits and record volume

Read the PR, the good news keeps coming.

Add GSML to your Radar and watch it like a hawk.

This company is going to $3.

even if it hits half of projected forcast it would be a phenomenal 1000% profit.

No other stock can deliver that in times like this

Get in on GSML
G&S minerals INC.

From asseveratingirsc@cilekmedya.com  Fri Feb  1 07:20:37 2008
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X-Spam-Level: ****************************************************************
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	tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HELO_EQ_NE_JP=1.244,
	HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, HOST_EQ_NE_JP=2.599, INVALID_DATE=1.245,
	OUTLOOK_3416=1.744, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5,
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 *      [score: 1.0000]
 *  1.2 HELO_EQ_JP HELO_EQ_JP
 *  1.3 HOST_EQ_JP HOST_EQ_JP
 *  2.6 HOST_EQ_NE_JP HOST_EQ_NE_JP
 *  1.2 HELO_EQ_NE_JP HELO_EQ_NE_JP
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 *  1.7 OUTLOOK_3416 Claims to be sent by an unusual build of Outlook (3416)
 *  2.2 TVD_SPACE_RATIO BODY: TVD_SPACE_RATIO
 *  1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 8 confidence level
 *      above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CHECK Listed in Razor2 (http://razor.sf.net/)
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100 Razor2 gives confidence level above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *   20 URIBL_BLACK Contains an URL listed in the URIBL blacklist
 *      [URIs: pokerfast.com]
 *   10 URIBL_AB_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the AB SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: pokerfast.com]
 *   10 URIBL_WS_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the WS SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: pokerfast.com]
 *   10 URIBL_JP_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the JP SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: pokerfast.com]
 *   10 URIBL_OB_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the OB SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: pokerfast.com]
 *   10 URIBL_SC_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the SC SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: pokerfast.com]
 *  3.0 RCVD_IN_XBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus XBL
 *      [122.29.109.162 listed in zen.spamhaus.org]
 *  2.0 RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET RBL: Received via a relay in bl.spamcop.net
 *      [Blocked - see <http://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?122.29.109.162>]
 *  0.6 RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB RBL: SORBS: sender is a abuseable web server
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From: "Millard Simon" <asseveratingirsc@cilekmedya.com>
To: <ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Subject: ***SPAM*** 93.172 (5) BodypartJumboBurt
Date: Fri, 32 Jan 2008 23:59:04 +0900
Message-ID: <02e4fd74$00000004$a26d1d7a@asseveratingirsc>
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Importance: Normal

CockMan-sizedChris
http://www.pokerfast.com
From KermitludwigHorn@wikipedia.org  Fri Feb  1 07:21:27 2008
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X-Spam-Report:
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 *  0.9 SARE_MLH_Stock1 Subject mentions stock or stock related words
 *  1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CHECK Listed in Razor2 (http://razor.sf.net/)
 *  1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 4 confidence level
 *      above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100 Razor2 gives confidence level above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.9 RCVD_IN_PBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus PBL
 *      [87.15.166.192 listed in zen.spamhaus.org]
 *  0.9 RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL RBL: SORBS: sent directly from dynamic IP address
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Message-ID: <7b6d01c864e3$59e765b0$4201a8c0@dompc>
From: "Elvin Navarro" <KermitludwigHorn@wikipedia.org>
To: <ietf-message-headers-request@lists.ietf.org>
Cc: <ipsec-archive@lists.ietf.org>, "<ipfix-archive"@lists.ietf.org,
	"<imapext-archive"@lists.ietf.org, "<ipsra-archive"@lists.ietf.org
Subject: ***SPAM*** 14.382 (5) Stock breaker report
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 16:01:10 -0100
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_7B69_01C864E3.59E765B0
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We told you to keep watching, G & S Minerals... Symol : GSML

Gold is reaching record of $1000/ oz ... GSML is the undiscovered gem =
you should be invested in.

Up 4 straight days with record volume

If you missed the move from .13 to .17 dont dispair they have not even =
scratched the surfact.

This company is going to $3.00

So grab yourself some GSML and earn easy 10 bagger
------=_NextPart_000_7B69_01C864E3.59E765B0
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>=20
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><U><I>We told you to keep =
watching, G &=20
S Minerals... Symol : GSML</I></U></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><U><B>Gold is reaching =
record of $1000/=20
oz ... GSML is the undiscovered gem you should be invested=20
in.</B></U></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Up 4 straight days with =
record=20
volume</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If you missed the move =
from .13 to .17=20
dont dispair they have not even scratched the surfact.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This company is going to=20
$3.00</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B><U>So grab yourself =
some GSML and=20
earn easy 10 bagger</U></B></FONT></DIV><BR>
</BODY></HTML>


------=_NextPart_000_7B69_01C864E3.59E765B0--

From ColemanbarbarianChaney@swankyconservative.com  Fri Feb  1 09:35:57 2008
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Subject: ***SPAM*** 17.024 (5) Next big market winner
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No Looking back on 
G&S minerals
Symbol-GSML

Up 4 consecutive days for over 40% in profits and record volume

Read the PR, the good news keeps coming.

Add GSML to your Radar and watch it like a hawk.

This company is going to $3.

even if it hits half of projected forcast it would be a phenomenal 1000% profit.

No other stock can deliver that in times like this

Get in on GSML
G&S minerals INC.

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I admit I've only kept one eye on this list for a while, so please forgive 
me, but what does this release mean in terms of vendors. Does this make 
IPFIX a formal standard that we can expect to be showing up on vendor's 
devices from now on? Does this need any further approval? Or is this it?

Thanks,

Joe




rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org 
Sent by: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org
01/31/2008 08:24 PM

To
ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org
cc
ipfix@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org
Subject
[IPFIX] RFC 5101 on Specification of the IP Flow Information Export 
(IPFIX) Protocol for the Exchange of IP Traffic Flow Information







A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.

 
        RFC 5101

        Title:      Specification of the IP Flow 
                    Information Export (IPFIX) Protocol for the 
                    Exchange of IP Traffic Flow Information 
        Author:     B. Claise, Ed.
        Status:     Standards Track
        Date:       January 2008
        Mailbox:    bclaise@cisco.com
        Pages:      63
        Characters: 147196
        Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:   None

        I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-ipfix-protocol-26.txt

        URL:        http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5101.txt

This document specifies the IP Flow Information Export (IPFIX)
protocol that serves for transmitting IP Traffic Flow information over
the network.  In order to transmit IP Traffic Flow information from an
Exporting Process to an information Collecting Process, a common
representation of flow data and a standard means of communicating them
is required.  This document describes how the IPFIX Data and Template
Records are carried over a number of transport protocols from an IPFIX
Exporting Process to an IPFIX Collecting Process.  [STANDARDS TRACK]

This document is a product of the IP Flow Information Export
Working Group of the IETF.

This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol.

STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track
protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and 
suggestions
for improvements.Please refer to the current edition of the Internet
 Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and
 status of this protocol.  Distribution of this memo is unlimited.

This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list.
Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list
should be sent to IETF-REQUEST@IETF.ORG.  Requests to be
added to or deleted from the RFC-DIST distribution list should
be sent to RFC-DIST-REQUEST@RFC-EDITOR.ORG.

Details on obtaining RFCs via FTP or EMAIL may be obtained by sending
an EMAIL message to rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG with the message body 

help: ways_to_get_rfcs. For example:

        To: rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG
        Subject: getting rfcs

        help: ways_to_get_rfcs

Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the
author of the RFC in question, or to RFC-Manager@RFC-EDITOR.ORG.  Unless
specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for
unlimited distribution.

Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to
RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG.  Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC
Authors, for further information.


The RFC Editor Team
USC/Information Sciences Institute

...


_______________________________________________
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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I admit I've only kept one eye on this
list for a while, so please forgive me, but what does this release mean
in terms of vendors. Does this make IPFIX a formal standard that we can
expect to be showing up on vendor's devices from now on? Does this need
any further approval? Or is this it?</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Thanks,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Joe<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=40%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org</b>
</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">01/31/2008 08:24 PM</font>
<td width=59%>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">To</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">cc</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">ipfix@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">[IPFIX] RFC 5101 on Specification of
the IP Flow Information Export &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(IPFIX)
Protocol for the Exchange of IP Traffic Flow Information</font></table>
<br>
<table>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td></table>
<br></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt><br>
A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RFC 5101<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Title: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Specification of
the IP Flow <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Information
Export (IPFIX) Protocol for the <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Exchange
of IP Traffic Flow Information <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Author: &nbsp; &nbsp; B. Claise, Ed.<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Status: &nbsp; &nbsp; Standards Track<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Date: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; January 2008<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Mailbox: &nbsp; &nbsp;bclaise@cisco.com<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Pages: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;63<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Characters: 147196<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: &nbsp; None<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;I-D Tag: &nbsp; &nbsp;draft-ietf-ipfix-protocol-26.txt<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;URL: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5101.txt<br>
<br>
This document specifies the IP Flow Information Export (IPFIX)<br>
protocol that serves for transmitting IP Traffic Flow information over<br>
the network. &nbsp;In order to transmit IP Traffic Flow information from
an<br>
Exporting Process to an information Collecting Process, a common<br>
representation of flow data and a standard means of communicating them<br>
is required. &nbsp;This document describes how the IPFIX Data and Template<br>
Records are carried over a number of transport protocols from an IPFIX<br>
Exporting Process to an IPFIX Collecting Process. &nbsp;[STANDARDS TRACK]<br>
<br>
This document is a product of the IP Flow Information Export<br>
Working Group of the IETF.<br>
<br>
This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol.<br>
<br>
STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track<br>
protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions<br>
for improvements.Please refer to the current edition of the Internet<br>
 Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and<br>
 status of this protocol. &nbsp;Distribution of this memo is unlimited.<br>
<br>
This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list.<br>
Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list<br>
should be sent to IETF-REQUEST@IETF.ORG. &nbsp;Requests to be<br>
added to or deleted from the RFC-DIST distribution list should<br>
be sent to RFC-DIST-REQUEST@RFC-EDITOR.ORG.<br>
<br>
Details on obtaining RFCs via FTP or EMAIL may be obtained by sending<br>
an EMAIL message to rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG with the message body <br>
<br>
help: ways_to_get_rfcs. For example:<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;To: rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Subject: getting rfcs<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;help: ways_to_get_rfcs<br>
<br>
Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the<br>
author of the RFC in question, or to RFC-Manager@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. &nbsp;Unless<br>
specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for<br>
unlimited distribution.<br>
<br>
Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to<br>
RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. &nbsp;Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions
to RFC<br>
Authors, for further information.<br>
<br>
<br>
The RFC Editor Team<br>
USC/Information Sciences Institute<br>
<br>
...<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
IPFIX mailing list<br>
IPFIX@ietf.org<br>
http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix<br>
</tt></font>
<br>
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_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFIX@ietf.org
http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix

--===============1748722017==--



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I admit I've only kept one eye on this list for a while, so please forgive 
me, but what does this release mean in terms of vendors. Does this make 
IPFIX a formal standard that we can expect to be showing up on vendor's 
devices from now on? Does this need any further approval? Or is this it?

Thanks,

Joe




rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org 
Sent by: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org
01/31/2008 08:24 PM

To
ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org
cc
ipfix@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org
Subject
[IPFIX] RFC 5101 on Specification of the IP Flow Information Export 
(IPFIX) Protocol for the Exchange of IP Traffic Flow Information







A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.

 
        RFC 5101

        Title:      Specification of the IP Flow 
                    Information Export (IPFIX) Protocol for the 
                    Exchange of IP Traffic Flow Information 
        Author:     B. Claise, Ed.
        Status:     Standards Track
        Date:       January 2008
        Mailbox:    bclaise@cisco.com
        Pages:      63
        Characters: 147196
        Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:   None

        I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-ipfix-protocol-26.txt

        URL:        http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5101.txt

This document specifies the IP Flow Information Export (IPFIX)
protocol that serves for transmitting IP Traffic Flow information over
the network.  In order to transmit IP Traffic Flow information from an
Exporting Process to an information Collecting Process, a common
representation of flow data and a standard means of communicating them
is required.  This document describes how the IPFIX Data and Template
Records are carried over a number of transport protocols from an IPFIX
Exporting Process to an IPFIX Collecting Process.  [STANDARDS TRACK]

This document is a product of the IP Flow Information Export
Working Group of the IETF.

This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol.

STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track
protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and 
suggestions
for improvements.Please refer to the current edition of the Internet
 Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and
 status of this protocol.  Distribution of this memo is unlimited.

This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list.
Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list
should be sent to IETF-REQUEST@IETF.ORG.  Requests to be
added to or deleted from the RFC-DIST distribution list should
be sent to RFC-DIST-REQUEST@RFC-EDITOR.ORG.

Details on obtaining RFCs via FTP or EMAIL may be obtained by sending
an EMAIL message to rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG with the message body 

help: ways_to_get_rfcs. For example:

        To: rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG
        Subject: getting rfcs

        help: ways_to_get_rfcs

Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the
author of the RFC in question, or to RFC-Manager@RFC-EDITOR.ORG.  Unless
specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for
unlimited distribution.

Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to
RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG.  Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC
Authors, for further information.


The RFC Editor Team
USC/Information Sciences Institute

...


_______________________________________________
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http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix


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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I admit I've only kept one eye on this
list for a while, so please forgive me, but what does this release mean
in terms of vendors. Does this make IPFIX a formal standard that we can
expect to be showing up on vendor's devices from now on? Does this need
any further approval? Or is this it?</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Thanks,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Joe<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=40%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org</b>
</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: ipfix-bounces@ietf.org</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">01/31/2008 08:24 PM</font>
<td width=59%>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">To</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">ietf-announce@ietf.org, rfc-dist@rfc-editor.org</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">cc</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">ipfix@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">[IPFIX] RFC 5101 on Specification of
the IP Flow Information Export &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(IPFIX)
Protocol for the Exchange of IP Traffic Flow Information</font></table>
<br>
<table>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td></table>
<br></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt><br>
A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RFC 5101<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Title: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Specification of
the IP Flow <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Information
Export (IPFIX) Protocol for the <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Exchange
of IP Traffic Flow Information <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Author: &nbsp; &nbsp; B. Claise, Ed.<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Status: &nbsp; &nbsp; Standards Track<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Date: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; January 2008<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Mailbox: &nbsp; &nbsp;bclaise@cisco.com<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Pages: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;63<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Characters: 147196<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: &nbsp; None<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;I-D Tag: &nbsp; &nbsp;draft-ietf-ipfix-protocol-26.txt<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;URL: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5101.txt<br>
<br>
This document specifies the IP Flow Information Export (IPFIX)<br>
protocol that serves for transmitting IP Traffic Flow information over<br>
the network. &nbsp;In order to transmit IP Traffic Flow information from
an<br>
Exporting Process to an information Collecting Process, a common<br>
representation of flow data and a standard means of communicating them<br>
is required. &nbsp;This document describes how the IPFIX Data and Template<br>
Records are carried over a number of transport protocols from an IPFIX<br>
Exporting Process to an IPFIX Collecting Process. &nbsp;[STANDARDS TRACK]<br>
<br>
This document is a product of the IP Flow Information Export<br>
Working Group of the IETF.<br>
<br>
This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol.<br>
<br>
STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track<br>
protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions<br>
for improvements.Please refer to the current edition of the Internet<br>
 Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and<br>
 status of this protocol. &nbsp;Distribution of this memo is unlimited.<br>
<br>
This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list.<br>
Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list<br>
should be sent to IETF-REQUEST@IETF.ORG. &nbsp;Requests to be<br>
added to or deleted from the RFC-DIST distribution list should<br>
be sent to RFC-DIST-REQUEST@RFC-EDITOR.ORG.<br>
<br>
Details on obtaining RFCs via FTP or EMAIL may be obtained by sending<br>
an EMAIL message to rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG with the message body <br>
<br>
help: ways_to_get_rfcs. For example:<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;To: rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Subject: getting rfcs<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;help: ways_to_get_rfcs<br>
<br>
Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the<br>
author of the RFC in question, or to RFC-Manager@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. &nbsp;Unless<br>
specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for<br>
unlimited distribution.<br>
<br>
Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to<br>
RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. &nbsp;Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions
to RFC<br>
Authors, for further information.<br>
<br>
<br>
The RFC Editor Team<br>
USC/Information Sciences Institute<br>
<br>
...<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
IPFIX mailing list<br>
IPFIX@ietf.org<br>
http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix<br>
</tt></font>
<br>
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http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix

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From MarlenethyratronStanford@nypost.com  Fri Feb  1 12:21:44 2008
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From: "Minnie Winston" <MarlenethyratronStanford@nypost.com>
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------=_NextPart_000_155F1_01C86510.1BAB6A80
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2963" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>=20
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><U><I>We told you to keep =
watching, G &=20
S Minerals... Symol : GSML</I></U></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><U><B>Gold is reaching =
record of $1000/=20
oz ... GSML is the undiscovered gem you should be invested=20
in.</B></U></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Up 4 straight days with =
record=20
volume</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If you missed the move =
from .13 to .17=20
dont dispair they have not even scratched the surfact.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This company is going to=20
$3.00</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B><U>So grab yourself =
some GSML and=20
earn easy 10 bagger</U></B></FONT></DIV><BR>
</BODY></HTML>


------=_NextPart_000_155F1_01C86510.1BAB6A80--




From raliehca2000@aleph-hk.com  Fri Feb  1 12:58:36 2008
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	tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DOS_OE_TO_MX=2.75, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597,
	FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_VERIZON_P=2.144,
	FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129,
	HELO_EQ_VERIZON_POOL=1.495, HTML_MESSAGE=1,
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	RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905,
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 *  1.5 HELO_EQ_VERIZON_POOL HELO_EQ_VERIZON_POOL
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 *  1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message
 *  1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 8 confidence level
 *      above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CHECK Listed in Razor2 (http://razor.sf.net/)
 *  1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 4 confidence level
 *      above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100 Razor2 gives confidence level above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *   20 URIBL_BLACK Contains an URL listed in the URIBL blacklist
 *      [URIs: coupmes.com]
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 *      [URIs: coupmes.com]
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 *      [URIs: coupmes.com]
 *   10 URIBL_JP_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the JP SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: coupmes.com]
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 *   10 URIBL_SC_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the SC SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: coupmes.com]
 *  0.9 RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL RBL: SORBS: sent directly from dynamic IP address
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Message-ID: <000701c86515$70ebcf80$572e6247@lawman>
From: "Zeljko henneberque" <raliehca2000@aleph-hk.com>
To: ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: ***SPAM*** 99.68 (5) Your hot dates are set to get HOTTER.
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 15:00:14 -0600
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----------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C864E3.26515F80
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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----------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C864E3.26515F80
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        charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<A href=3D"http://www.coupmes.com/">Ever wanted a GIANT ROD? Click here =
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----------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C864E3.26515F80--



From liettxet2007@MESSA.ORG  Fri Feb  1 14:11:32 2008
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	tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DOS_OE_TO_MX=2.75, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129,
	HELO_EQ_PL=1.135, HOST_EQ_PL=1.95, HTML_MESSAGE=1,
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Message-ID: <000801c8651f$9e643ce0$f43b0653@paulinka>
From: "Trevon Koskenalho" <liettxet2007@MESSA.ORG>
To: ipfix-archive@megatron.ietf.org
Subject: ***SPAM*** 89.206 (5) Amaze your chick with your new legendary
	manhood.
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 23:13:05 +0100
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----------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C86528.0028A4E0
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Make your own home sex video, and show off your new big schlong to the =
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----------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C86528.0028A4E0
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your new big schlong to the world.</A></BODY></HTML>
----------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C86528.0028A4E0--



From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org  Sun Feb  3 12:18:43 2008
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Date: Mon,  4 Feb 2008 09:17:26 +1300
From: Nevil Brownlee <nevil@auckland.ac.nz>
To: ipfix@ietf.org
References: <OF43056E01.6F25097D-ON852573E2.0061F83D-852573E2.006243A9@csc.com>
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Subject: Re: [IPFIX] RFC 5101 on Specification of the IP Flow
	Information	Export (IPFIX) Protocol for the Exchange of IP
	Traffic Flow Information
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Hi Joe:

> I admit I've only kept one eye on this list for a while, so please forgive
> me, but what does this release mean in terms of vendors. Does this make
> IPFIX a formal standard that we can expect to be showing up on vendor's
> devices from now on? Does this need any further approval? Or is this it?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joe

RFCs 5101, 5102 and 5103 are the three Standards-Track RFCs that define
IPFIX 'on the wire.'  There are quite a few more IPFIX drafts either in the
RFC Editor queue or still being worked through, so the WG certainly isn't
done yet!  However, this publication should mean that vendors can go ahead
and implement it in their devices - I trust that will start to happen
real soon now.

Also, congratulations to all those who've worked so hard (and for so
long) to see these three RFCs published :-)

Cheers, Nevil Brownlee (IPFIX co-chair)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
  Nevil Brownlee                    Computer Science Department | ITS
  Phone: +64 9 373 7599 x88941             The University of Auckland
  FAX: +64 9 373 7453   Private Bag 92019, Auckland 1142, New Zealand

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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_______________________________________________
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IPFIX@ietf.org
http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix


ii"
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Hi Joe:

> I admit I've only kept one eye on this list for a while, so please forgive
> me, but what does this release mean in terms of vendors. Does this make
> IPFIX a formal standard that we can expect to be showing up on vendor's
> devices from now on? Does this need any further approval? Or is this it?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joe

RFCs 5101, 5102 and 5103 are the three Standards-Track RFCs that define
IPFIX 'on the wire.'  There are quite a few more IPFIX drafts either in the
RFC Editor queue or still being worked through, so the WG certainly isn't
done yet!  However, this publication should mean that vendors can go ahead
and implement it in their devices - I trust that will start to happen
real soon now.

Also, congratulations to all those who've worked so hard (and for so
long) to see these three RFCs published :-)

Cheers, Nevil Brownlee (IPFIX co-chair)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
  Nevil Brownlee                    Computer Science Department | ITS
  Phone: +64 9 373 7599 x88941             The University of Auckland
  FAX: +64 9 373 7453   Private Bag 92019, Auckland 1142, New Zealand

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through University of Auckland http://www.auckland.ac.nz

_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFIX@ietf.org
http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix


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Subject: Re: [IPFIX] draft-ietf-ipfix-file-00
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Hello Brian,

I read this draft.
These are my comments.

1:
I think it is better to change the name "IPFIX File Writer" to "IPFIX File 
Writing Process" and "IPFIX File Reader" to "IPFIX File Reading Process".
Because, Terminology of IPFIX File Writer and Reader defines these are processes.
    IPFIX File Reader:   An IPFIX File Reader is a Process which reads
       IPFIX Files from a filesystem,
    IPFIX File Writer:   An IPFIX File Writer is a process which writes
       IPFIX Files to a filesystem,

I am reminded of IPFIX Device from the word "Writer" and "Reader".

I use the word "IPFIX File Writing Process" instead of "IPFIX File Writer", 
"IPFIX File Reading Process" instead of "IPFIX File Reader" in following 
sentence of this mail.

2:
I think it is useful to define "Writing Process" and "Reading Process" which 
are broader concept of "IPFIX File Writing Process" and "IPFIX File Reading 
Process".
"Writing Process" writes the IPFIX Messages to any storage such as file 
system, database with any format.
"Reading Process" reads the IPFIX Messages from any storage such as file 
system, database with any format.

For example, when someone want to implement format converter which converts 
from any proprietary format (e.g. NetFlow v5) to IPFIX File Format. The 
converter contains "Reading Process" and "IPFIX File Writer".

Definition of "Writing Process" and "Storing Process" in 
draft-kobayashi-ipfix-mediator-model-01 are almost same. It is better that 
they should be merged, I think.

(2008/01/11 10:37), Kobayashi Atsushi wrote:
> Dear Brian,
> 
> I checked your draft in less time. I confirmed that ipfix file is useful
> for compatibility and testing. This format makes easily me try to
> implement file writer and reader. To clarify your draft and improve my
> understanding, I write down several comments, as follows.
> 
> Q1 
> I think that main part of this document is section 3,7. 
> This draft has many tips. But, from viewpoint of easy understanding of
> the ipfix file format, I prefer that the draft is divided by main part
> and other parts.
> 
> Q2
> Should a ipfix file include whole message on one session, even if one
> session has different Observation Domain ID messages?
> From viewpoint of easy decoding and reducing of file size, 
> I want to make ipfix file based on same Observation Domain ID.
> It depends on case or policy. 
> 
> Q3
> I could not understand following description in section 7. 
> Please give more specific example.
> 
>    o  File Writers SHOULD emit Data Records described by Options
>       Templates to appear in the file before any Data Records which
>       depend on the scopes defined by those options.
> 
> Generally, Options that present sampling, sampling algorithm and
> filtering method in psamp. These templates and associated data records
> should be included in a ipfix file.
> Does above description mean these points?
> 
> Q4
> Some of your proposed option templates are useful for several
> cases other than file format. For example, there are Anonymization Options
> Template and Message Details Options Template.
> Mediator draft describes similar template in section 5 .
> I think that this part could become independent document after we
> explore sophisticated way that can be used for both functions.
> 
> Thanks,
> Atsushi KOBAYASHI
> 
> 
> On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 19:07:19 -0500
> Brian Trammell <bht@cert.org> wrote:
> 
>> All,
>>
>> draft-ietf-ipfix-file-00 is now available. Many thanks to those of  
>> you who have reviewed and commented on the draft. Changes from  
>> individual revision -05 are as follows:
>>
>> 1. Reorganized the structure of the document somewhat for readability.
>>
>> 2. Minor changes to template management language for clarity.
>>
>> 3. Minor changes to options template definitions to clarify which IEs  
>> are scope IEs.
>>
>> 4. Terminology capitalization review.
>>
>> We plan on at least one more revision of this document before WG last  
>> call to address remaining open issues raised by reviews to date:
>>
>> 1. Define a mechanism for containing IPFIX data and non-IPFIX data  
>> (e.g. proprietary metadata, headers and footers) within the same file  
>> in an interoperable way, or declare such a mechanism explicitly out  
>> of scope. It seems there is definite WG interest for such a  
>> mechanism; we'll propose a mechanism for WG discussion this month.
>>
>> 2. Collection details options templates and information element  
>> definitions assume a CP is involved in the writing of a file;  
>> however, routers and other MPs can write IPFIX Files, too, so we will  
>> remove this assumption where it appears.
>>
>> 3. The draft should provide guidelines for a CP collecting from  
>> multiple SCTP streams and writing those records into a file.
>>
>> 4. The security considerations section should treat the security of  
>> IPFIX Files written by CPs using TLS for transport security separately.
>>
>> 5. The document should contain an IPFIX Documents Overview section to  
>> place the file draft in context.
>>
>> 6. The document should contain an XML schema definition appendix for  
>> the IEs it defines.
>>
>> 7. It has been suggested that the file draft's handling of  
>> anonymization use a bitmap IE to be parallel with the protocol's  
>> flowKeyIndicator; however, it is unclear that a bitmap will be  
>> sufficient for anonymization notation, so more discussion is  
>> warranted here.
>>
>> 8. It has also been suggested that the appendices within the file  
>> draft on comparing and translating NetFlow V9 data into IPFIX, used  
>> as an informative background for the section within the document on  
>> applying IPFIX Files to V9 collection infrastructures, might make a  
>> good draft in its own right. We'd like to assess WG interest in such  
>> a draft before splitting the file draft again.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Brian
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>>> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
>>> Date: January 2, 2008 12:20:02 PM EST
>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>>> Cc: ipfix@ietf.org
>>> Subject: [IPFIX] I-D Action:draft-ietf-ipfix-file-00.txt
>>>
>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts  
>>> directories.
>>> This draft is a work item of the IP Flow Information Export Working  
>>> Group of the IETF.
>>>
>>>
>>> 	Title           : An IPFIX-Based File Format
>>> 	Author(s)       : B. Trammell, et al.
>>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ipfix-file-00.txt
>>> 	Pages           : 50
>>> 	Date            : 2008-01-02
>>>
>>> This document describes a file format for the storage of flow data
>>> based upon the IPFIX Message format.  It proposes a set of
>>> requirements for flat-file, binary flow data file formats, then
>>> applies the IPFIX message format to these requirements to build a new
>>> file format.  This IPFIX-based file format is designed to facilitate
>>> interoperability and reusability among a wide variety of flow
>>> storage, processing, and analysis tools.
>>>
>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-file-00.txt
>>>
>>> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to
>>> i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of
>>> the message.
>>> You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce
>>> to change your subscription settings.
>>>
>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
>>> username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After
>>> logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
>>> 	"get draft-ietf-ipfix-file-00.txt".
>>>
>>> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
>>> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>>>
>>> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
>>>
>>> Send a message to:
>>> 	mailserv@ietf.org.
>>> In the body type:
>>> 	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-file-00.txt".
>>>
>>> NOTE:   The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
>>> 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
>>> 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
>>> 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
>>> 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail readers
>>> 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
>>> 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
>>> 	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
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>>>
>>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
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>>> Internet-Draft.
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>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> IPFIX mailing list
>>> IPFIX@ietf.org
>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> IPFIX mailing list
>> IPFIX@ietf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
> 
> --- 
> Atsushi KOBAYASHI  <akoba@nttv6.net>
> NTT Information Sharing Platform Lab.
> tel:+81-(0)422-59-3978 fax:+81-(0)422-59-5637
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> IPFIX mailing list
> IPFIX@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
> 


-- 
Hitoshi Irino
NTT Network Service Systems Laboratories
9-11 Midori-cho 3-Chome, Musashino-shi, Tokyo 180-8585 Japan
Tel: +81-422-59-4403  Fax: +81-422-59-4549
_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFIX@ietf.org
http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix


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From: Hitoshi Irino <irino.hitoshi@lab.ntt.co.jp>
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Subject: Re: [IPFIX] draft-ietf-ipfix-file-00
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Hello Brian,

I read this draft.
These are my comments.

1:
I think it is better to change the name "IPFIX File Writer" to "IPFIX File 
Writing Process" and "IPFIX File Reader" to "IPFIX File Reading Process".
Because, Terminology of IPFIX File Writer and Reader defines these are processes.
    IPFIX File Reader:   An IPFIX File Reader is a Process which reads
       IPFIX Files from a filesystem,
    IPFIX File Writer:   An IPFIX File Writer is a process which writes
       IPFIX Files to a filesystem,

I am reminded of IPFIX Device from the word "Writer" and "Reader".

I use the word "IPFIX File Writing Process" instead of "IPFIX File Writer", 
"IPFIX File Reading Process" instead of "IPFIX File Reader" in following 
sentence of this mail.

2:
I think it is useful to define "Writing Process" and "Reading Process" which 
are broader concept of "IPFIX File Writing Process" and "IPFIX File Reading 
Process".
"Writing Process" writes the IPFIX Messages to any storage such as file 
system, database with any format.
"Reading Process" reads the IPFIX Messages from any storage such as file 
system, database with any format.

For example, when someone want to implement format converter which converts 
from any proprietary format (e.g. NetFlow v5) to IPFIX File Format. The 
converter contains "Reading Process" and "IPFIX File Writer".

Definition of "Writing Process" and "Storing Process" in 
draft-kobayashi-ipfix-mediator-model-01 are almost same. It is better that 
they should be merged, I think.

(2008/01/11 10:37), Kobayashi Atsushi wrote:
> Dear Brian,
> 
> I checked your draft in less time. I confirmed that ipfix file is useful
> for compatibility and testing. This format makes easily me try to
> implement file writer and reader. To clarify your draft and improve my
> understanding, I write down several comments, as follows.
> 
> Q1 
> I think that main part of this document is section 3,7. 
> This draft has many tips. But, from viewpoint of easy understanding of
> the ipfix file format, I prefer that the draft is divided by main part
> and other parts.
> 
> Q2
> Should a ipfix file include whole message on one session, even if one
> session has different Observation Domain ID messages?
> From viewpoint of easy decoding and reducing of file size, 
> I want to make ipfix file based on same Observation Domain ID.
> It depends on case or policy. 
> 
> Q3
> I could not understand following description in section 7. 
> Please give more specific example.
> 
>    o  File Writers SHOULD emit Data Records described by Options
>       Templates to appear in the file before any Data Records which
>       depend on the scopes defined by those options.
> 
> Generally, Options that present sampling, sampling algorithm and
> filtering method in psamp. These templates and associated data records
> should be included in a ipfix file.
> Does above description mean these points?
> 
> Q4
> Some of your proposed option templates are useful for several
> cases other than file format. For example, there are Anonymization Options
> Template and Message Details Options Template.
> Mediator draft describes similar template in section 5 .
> I think that this part could become independent document after we
> explore sophisticated way that can be used for both functions.
> 
> Thanks,
> Atsushi KOBAYASHI
> 
> 
> On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 19:07:19 -0500
> Brian Trammell <bht@cert.org> wrote:
> 
>> All,
>>
>> draft-ietf-ipfix-file-00 is now available. Many thanks to those of  
>> you who have reviewed and commented on the draft. Changes from  
>> individual revision -05 are as follows:
>>
>> 1. Reorganized the structure of the document somewhat for readability.
>>
>> 2. Minor changes to template management language for clarity.
>>
>> 3. Minor changes to options template definitions to clarify which IEs  
>> are scope IEs.
>>
>> 4. Terminology capitalization review.
>>
>> We plan on at least one more revision of this document before WG last  
>> call to address remaining open issues raised by reviews to date:
>>
>> 1. Define a mechanism for containing IPFIX data and non-IPFIX data  
>> (e.g. proprietary metadata, headers and footers) within the same file  
>> in an interoperable way, or declare such a mechanism explicitly out  
>> of scope. It seems there is definite WG interest for such a  
>> mechanism; we'll propose a mechanism for WG discussion this month.
>>
>> 2. Collection details options templates and information element  
>> definitions assume a CP is involved in the writing of a file;  
>> however, routers and other MPs can write IPFIX Files, too, so we will  
>> remove this assumption where it appears.
>>
>> 3. The draft should provide guidelines for a CP collecting from  
>> multiple SCTP streams and writing those records into a file.
>>
>> 4. The security considerations section should treat the security of  
>> IPFIX Files written by CPs using TLS for transport security separately.
>>
>> 5. The document should contain an IPFIX Documents Overview section to  
>> place the file draft in context.
>>
>> 6. The document should contain an XML schema definition appendix for  
>> the IEs it defines.
>>
>> 7. It has been suggested that the file draft's handling of  
>> anonymization use a bitmap IE to be parallel with the protocol's  
>> flowKeyIndicator; however, it is unclear that a bitmap will be  
>> sufficient for anonymization notation, so more discussion is  
>> warranted here.
>>
>> 8. It has also been suggested that the appendices within the file  
>> draft on comparing and translating NetFlow V9 data into IPFIX, used  
>> as an informative background for the section within the document on  
>> applying IPFIX Files to V9 collection infrastructures, might make a  
>> good draft in its own right. We'd like to assess WG interest in such  
>> a draft before splitting the file draft again.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Brian
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>>> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
>>> Date: January 2, 2008 12:20:02 PM EST
>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>>> Cc: ipfix@ietf.org
>>> Subject: [IPFIX] I-D Action:draft-ietf-ipfix-file-00.txt
>>>
>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts  
>>> directories.
>>> This draft is a work item of the IP Flow Information Export Working  
>>> Group of the IETF.
>>>
>>>
>>> 	Title           : An IPFIX-Based File Format
>>> 	Author(s)       : B. Trammell, et al.
>>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ipfix-file-00.txt
>>> 	Pages           : 50
>>> 	Date            : 2008-01-02
>>>
>>> This document describes a file format for the storage of flow data
>>> based upon the IPFIX Message format.  It proposes a set of
>>> requirements for flat-file, binary flow data file formats, then
>>> applies the IPFIX message format to these requirements to build a new
>>> file format.  This IPFIX-based file format is designed to facilitate
>>> interoperability and reusability among a wide variety of flow
>>> storage, processing, and analysis tools.
>>>
>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-file-00.txt
>>>
>>> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to
>>> i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of
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>>>
>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
>>> username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After
>>> logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
>>> 	"get draft-ietf-ipfix-file-00.txt".
>>>
>>> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
>>> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>>>
>>> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
>>>
>>> Send a message to:
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>>>
>>> NOTE:   The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
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>>> 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
>>> 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
>>> 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail readers
>>> 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
>>> 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
>>> 	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
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>>>
>>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
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>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> IPFIX mailing list
>> IPFIX@ietf.org
>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
> 
> --- 
> Atsushi KOBAYASHI  <akoba@nttv6.net>
> NTT Information Sharing Platform Lab.
> tel:+81-(0)422-59-3978 fax:+81-(0)422-59-5637
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> IPFIX mailing list
> IPFIX@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix
> 


-- 
Hitoshi Irino
NTT Network Service Systems Laboratories
9-11 Midori-cho 3-Chome, Musashino-shi, Tokyo 180-8585 Japan
Tel: +81-422-59-4403  Fax: +81-422-59-4549
_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
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http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix


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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Flow Information Export Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Guidelines for IP Flow Information eXport (IPFIX) Testing
	Author(s)       : C. Schmoll, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ipfix-testing-04.txt
	Pages           : 42
	Date            : 2008-02-11

This document presents a list of tests that implementers of IP Flow
Information Export (IPFIX) compliant Exporting Processes and
Collecting Processes should perform on their IPFIX Exporting Process
and/or Collecting Process.  This document has been created to help
implementers test the functionality of their IPFIX Exporting Process
and/or Collecting Process.  The goal of these tests is to ensure that
all important functions are covered by tests and thereby to gain a
level of confidence in the Exporting Process and Collecting Process
that allows the implementer to perform interoperability or plug tests
with other IPFIX Exporting Processes and Collecting Processes.Conventions
used in this document

The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT",
"SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this
document are to be interpreted as described in [RFC2119].

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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Flow Information Export Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Guidelines for IP Flow Information eXport (IPFIX) Testing
	Author(s)       : C. Schmoll, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ipfix-testing-04.txt
	Pages           : 42
	Date            : 2008-02-11

This document presents a list of tests that implementers of IP Flow
Information Export (IPFIX) compliant Exporting Processes and
Collecting Processes should perform on their IPFIX Exporting Process
and/or Collecting Process.  This document has been created to help
implementers test the functionality of their IPFIX Exporting Process
and/or Collecting Process.  The goal of these tests is to ensure that
all important functions are covered by tests and thereby to gain a
level of confidence in the Exporting Process and Collecting Process
that allows the implementer to perform interoperability or plug tests
with other IPFIX Exporting Processes and Collecting Processes.Conventions
used in this document

The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT",
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From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Feb 12 06:42:14 2008
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The IESG has received a request from the IP Flow Information Export WG 
(ipfix) to consider the following document:

- 'Guidelines for IP Flow Information eXport (IPFIX) Testing '
   <draft-ietf-ipfix-testing-04.txt> as an Informational RFC

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
final comments on this action.  Please send substantive comments to the
ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2008-02-26. Exceptionally, 
comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please 
retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

The file can be obtained via
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-testing-04.txt


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From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Feb 12 06:42:14 2008
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Subject: [IPFIX] Last Call: draft-ietf-ipfix-testing (Guidelines for IP Flow
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The IESG has received a request from the IP Flow Information Export WG 
(ipfix) to consider the following document:

- 'Guidelines for IP Flow Information eXport (IPFIX) Testing '
   <draft-ietf-ipfix-testing-04.txt> as an Informational RFC

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retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

The file can be obtained via
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-testing-04.txt


IESG discussion can be tracked via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=view_id&dTag=15388&rfc_flag=0

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From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Feb 13 01:08:33 2008
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From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: [IPFIX] draft-ietf-ipfix-testing-04.txt: new version of the draft
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Dear all,

The reason for this new draft is that we have addressed the AD comments.
Some of changes were a series of small changes. So it was easier to 
simply edit a new version of the draft.
Furthermore, we discovered a problem in the structure of the "3.6.8.  
Re-using Template IDs".
For example, there is no "template expiry time" with SCTP


        3.6.8. Re-using Template ID


          3.6.8.1. Re-using the same Template ID inside the Template
          expiry time


            3.6.8.1.1. Using SCTP transport.

So we moved some text around.
Finally, while we were at it, we reviewed the draft a few times, and 
improved the text in order to avoid any confusions. For example, in the 
section 3.6.8, we mentioned things such as: use the _same _SCTP 
assocation From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Feb 13 01:08:33 2008
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Subject: [IPFIX] draft-ietf-ipfix-testing-04.txt: new version of the draft
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Dear all,

The reason for this new draft is that we have addressed the AD comments.
Some of changes were a series of small changes. So it was easier to 
simply edit a new version of the draft.
Furthermore, we discovered a problem in the structure of the "3.6.8.  
Re-using Template IDs".
For example, there is no "template expiry time" with SCTP


        3.6.8. Re-using Template ID


          3.6.8.1. Re-using the same Template ID inside the Template
          expiry time


            3.6.8.1.1. Using SCTP transport.

So we moved some text around.
Finally, while we were at it, we reviewed the draft a few times, and 
improved the text in order to avoid any confusions. For example, in the 
section 3.6.8, we mentioned things such as: use the _same _SCTP 
assocation or TCP connection, resend the _same _template, etc... The 
time spent on this draft these days should ease the AUTH48 procedure.

Regards, Benoit.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	New Version Notification - draft-ietf-ipfix-testing-04.txt
Date: 	Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:15:01 -0800 (PST)
From: 	Internet-Draft@ietf.org
To: 	ipfix-chairs@tools.ietf.org, 
draft-ietf-ipfix-testing@tools.ietf.org, dromasca@avaya.com



New version (-04) has been submitted for draft-ietf-ipfix-testing-04.txt.
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-testing-04.txt


IETF Secretariat.


--------------030708000205070804010503
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Dear all,<br>
<br>
The reason for this new draft is that we have addressed the AD comments.<br>
Some of changes were a series of small changes. So it
was easier to simply edit a new version of the draft.<br>
Furthermore, we discovered a problem in the structure of the "3.6.8. 
Re-using Template IDs".<br>
For example, there is no "template expiry time" with SCTP<br>
<pre><h4>3.6.8.  Re-using Template ID</h4><h5>3.6.8.1.  Re-using the same Template ID inside the Template expiry time</h5><h6>3.6.8.1.1.  Using SCTP transport.</h6></pre>
So we moved some text around.<br>
Finally, while we were at it, we reviewed the draft a few times, and
improved the text in order to avoid any confusions. For example, in the
section 3.6.8, we mentioned things such as: use the <u>same </u>SCTP
assocation or TCP connection, resend the <u>same </u>template, etc...
The time spent on this draft these days should ease the AUTH48
procedure. <br>
<br>
Regards, Benoit.<br>
<br>
-------- Original Message --------
<table class="moz-email-headers-table" border="0" cellpadding="0"
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    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">Subject: </th>
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    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">Date: </th>
      <td>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:15:01 -0800 (PST)</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">From: </th>
      <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Internet-Draft@ietf.org">Internet-Draft@ietf.org</a></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">To: </th>
      <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ipfix-chairs@tools.ietf.org">ipfix-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-ietf-ipfix-testing@tools.ietf.org">draft-ietf-ipfix-testing@tools.ietf.org</a>, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a></td>
    </tr>
  </tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
<pre>New version (-04) has been submitted for draft-ietf-ipfix-testing-04.txt.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-testing-04.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-testing-04.txt</a>


IETF Secretariat.
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or TCP connection, resend the _same _template, etc... The 
time spent on this draft these days should ease the AUTH48 procedure.

Regards, Benoit.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	New Version Notification - draft-ietf-ipfix-testing-04.txt
Date: 	Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:15:01 -0800 (PST)
From: 	Internet-Draft@ietf.org
To: 	ipfix-chairs@tools.ietf.org, 
draft-ietf-ipfix-testing@tools.ietf.org, dromasca@avaya.com



New version (-04) has been submitted for draft-ietf-ipfix-testing-04.txt.
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-testing-04.txt


IETF Secretariat.


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Dear all,<br>
<br>
The reason for this new draft is that we have addressed the AD comments.<br>
Some of changes were a series of small changes. So it
was easier to simply edit a new version of the draft.<br>
Furthermore, we discovered a problem in the structure of the "3.6.8. 
Re-using Template IDs".<br>
For example, there is no "template expiry time" with SCTP<br>
<pre><h4>3.6.8.  Re-using Template ID</h4><h5>3.6.8.1.  Re-using the same Template ID inside the Template expiry time</h5><h6>3.6.8.1.1.  Using SCTP transport.</h6></pre>
So we moved some text around.<br>
Finally, while we were at it, we reviewed the draft a few times, and
improved the text in order to avoid any confusions. For example, in the
section 3.6.8, we mentioned things such as: use the <u>same </u>SCTP
assocation or TCP connection, resend the <u>same </u>template, etc...
The time spent on this draft these days should ease the AUTH48
procedure. <br>
<br>
Regards, Benoit.<br>
<br>
-------- Original Message --------
<table class="moz-email-headers-table" border="0" cellpadding="0"
 cellspacing="0">
  <tbody>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">Subject: </th>
      <td>New Version Notification - draft-ietf-ipfix-testing-04.txt</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">Date: </th>
      <td>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:15:01 -0800 (PST)</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">From: </th>
      <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Internet-Draft@ietf.org">Internet-Draft@ietf.org</a></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">To: </th>
      <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ipfix-chairs@tools.ietf.org">ipfix-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-ietf-ipfix-testing@tools.ietf.org">draft-ietf-ipfix-testing@tools.ietf.org</a>, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a></td>
    </tr>
  </tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
<pre>New version (-04) has been submitted for draft-ietf-ipfix-testing-04.txt.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-testing-04.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ipfix-testing-04.txt</a>


IETF Secretariat.
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Dear all,

During the last IETF meeting, we discussed the following open issue for 
regarding 
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ipfix/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-02.txt, 
which concerns a current limitation in [IPFIX-PROTO]:

    "Template IDs are unique per SCTP association and per Observation
    Domain. If the Collecting Process receives a Template that has
    already been received but that has not previously been withdrawn
    (i.e., a Template Record from the same Exporter Observation Domain
    with the same Template ID received on the SCTP association), then the
    Collecting Process MUST shut down the association."


The current draft specifies: "Redefinition of the Template ID is not 
encouraged. Instead, new Template ID SHOULD be used, uFrom ipfix-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Feb 15 06:43:08 2008
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Dear all,

During the last IETF meeting, we discussed the following open issue for 
regarding 
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ipfix/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-02.txt, 
which concerns a current limitation in [IPFIX-PROTO]:

    "Template IDs are unique per SCTP association and per Observation
    Domain. If the Collecting Process receives a Template that has
    already been received but that has not previously been withdrawn
    (i.e., a Template Record from the same Exporter Observation Domain
    with the same Template ID received on the SCTP association), then the
    Collecting Process MUST shut down the association."


The current draft specifies: "Redefinition of the Template ID is not 
encouraged. Instead, new Template ID SHOULD be used, until the 
exhaustion of the Template ID space."
Do we want to put a MUST in that sentence?

IMHO, a MUST would be a plus as:
- it would considerably reduce the risk of losing Data Records in corner 
cases when Template IDs are applicable across multiple streams
- the number of bits for the Template ID is huge enough. The Template ID 
would wrap up to the next available Template ID, for which the Template 
Withdraw Message certainly had the time to reach the Collecting Process.
- the implementation is easy.

Feedback?

Regards, Benoit.

 


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Dear all,<br>
<br>
During the last IETF meeting, we discussed the following open issue for
regarding
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
 href="http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ipfix/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-02.txt">http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ipfix/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-02.txt</a>,
which concerns a current limitation in [IPFIX-PROTO]:<br>
<blockquote> "Template IDs are unique per SCTP association and per
Observation<br>
Domain. If the Collecting Process receives a Template that has<br>
already been received but that has not previously been withdrawn<br>
(i.e., a Template Record from the same Exporter Observation Domain<br>
with the same Template ID received on the SCTP association), then the<br>
Collecting Process MUST shut down the association."<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
The current draft specifies: "Redefinition of the Template ID is not
encouraged. Instead, new Template ID SHOULD be used, until the
exhaustion of the Template ID space." <br>
Do we want to put a MUST in that sentence?<br>
<br>
IMHO, a MUST would be a plus as:<br>
- it would considerably reduce the risk of losing Data Records in
corner cases when Template IDs are applicable across multiple streams<br>
- the number of bits for the Template ID is huge enough. The Template
ID would wrap up to the next available Template ID, for which the
Template Withdraw Message certainly had the time to reach the
Collecting Process.<br>
- the implementation is easy.<br>
<br>
Feedback?<br>
<br>
Regards, Benoit.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;<br>
<br>
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ntil the 
exhaustion of the Template ID space."
Do we want to put a MUST in that sentence?

IMHO, a MUST would be a plus as:
- it would considerably reduce the risk of losing Data Records in corner 
cases when Template IDs are applicable across multiple streams
- the number of bits for the Template ID is huge enough. The Template ID 
would wrap up to the next available Template ID, for which the Template 
Withdraw Message certainly had the time to reach the Collecting Process.
- the implementation is easy.

Feedback?

Regards, Benoit.

 


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<meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
Dear all,<br>
<br>
During the last IETF meeting, we discussed the following open issue for
regarding
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
 href="http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ipfix/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-02.txt">http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ipfix/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-02.txt</a>,
which concerns a current limitation in [IPFIX-PROTO]:<br>
<blockquote> "Template IDs are unique per SCTP association and per
Observation<br>
Domain. If the Collecting Process receives a Template that has<br>
already been received but that has not previously been withdrawn<br>
(i.e., a Template Record from the same Exporter Observation Domain<br>
with the same Template ID received on the SCTP association), then the<br>
Collecting Process MUST shut down the association."<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
The current draft specifies: "Redefinition of the Template ID is not
encouraged. Instead, new Template ID SHOULD be used, until the
exhaustion of the Template ID space." <br>
Do we want to put a MUST in that sentence?<br>
<br>
IMHO, a MUST would be a plus as:<br>
- it would considerably reduce the risk of losing Data Records in
corner cases when Template IDs are applicable across multiple streams<br>
- the number of bits for the Template ID is huge enough. The Template
ID would wrap up to the next available Template ID, for which the
Template Withdraw Message certainly had the time to reach the
Collecting Process.<br>
- the implementation is easy.<br>
<br>
Feedback?<br>
<br>
Regards, Benoit.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;<br>
<br>
</body>
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Cc: "ipfix@ietf.org" <ipfix@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Per-SCTP stream draft: New Template ID SHOULD/MUST be
 used?
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Benoit, all,

> During the last IETF meeting, we discussed the following open issue for=

> regarding
> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ipfix/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-strea=
m-02.txt,
> which concerns a current limitation in [IPFIX-PROTO]:
>=20
>     "Template IDs are unique per SCTP association and per Observation
>     Domain. If the Collecting Process receives a Template that has
>     already been received but that has not previously been withdrawn
>     (i.e., a Template Record from the same Exporter Observation Domain
>     with the same Template ID received on the SCTP association), then t=
he
>     Collecting Process MUST shut down the association."
>=20
>=20
> TheFrom ipfix-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Feb 18 06:33:41 2008
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:33:25 +0100
From: Gerhard Muenz <muenz@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
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Cc: "ipfix@ietf.org" <ipfix@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Per-SCTP stream draft: New Template ID SHOULD/MUST be
 used?
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Benoit, all,

> During the last IETF meeting, we discussed the following open issue for=

> regarding
> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ipfix/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-strea=
m-02.txt,
> which concerns a current limitation in [IPFIX-PROTO]:
>=20
>     "Template IDs are unique per SCTP association and per Observation
>     Domain. If the Collecting Process receives a Template that has
>     already been received but that has not previously been withdrawn
>     (i.e., a Template Record from the same Exporter Observation Domain
>     with the same Template ID received on the SCTP association), then t=
he
>     Collecting Process MUST shut down the association."
>=20
>=20
> The current draft specifies: "Redefinition of the Template ID is not
> encouraged. Instead, new Template ID SHOULD be used, until the
> exhaustion of the Template ID space."
> Do we want to put a MUST in that sentence?
>=20
> IMHO, a MUST would be a plus as:
> - it would considerably reduce the risk of losing Data Records in corne=
r
> cases when Template IDs are applicable across multiple streams

What do you mean by reducing the risk of losing Data Records?
After receiving the Template Withdrawal Message, is not allowed to
decode any further Data Records associated with this Template ID. Hence,
you will always lose Data Records which arrive too late, independently
of the stream.

> - the number of bits for the Template ID is huge enough. The Template I=
D
> would wrap up to the next available Template ID, for which the Template=

> Withdraw Message certainly had the time to reach the Collecting Process=
=2E
> - the implementation is easy.
>=20
> Feedback?

According to my understanding, Template IDs can be reused without losing
any Records if the following three conditions are fulfilled:
1) Template and associated Data Records are sent over the same stream
using ordered delivery.
2) Reutilization of Template IDs is restricted to the same stream.
3) "All Template Withdrawal Message" is not used to withdraw Templates
from multiple streams.

Note that 1) does not imply that there is one stream per Template.

If any of the above conditions is not fulfilled, Data Records may arrive
before a Template, or after a Template Withdrawal Message.
Furthermore, if a Template ID is reused very quickly, we might have
trouble with some delayed Data Records assigned to the old Template and
arriving after the new Template.

It would be possible to detect that such delayed Data Records do not
belong to the new Template because by comparing the export times of the
Template and the Data Records. Yet this means that the export time has
to be stored for every Template, and that the Collector must accomplish
this comparison for every Data Record.

If we do not want to increase the Collector complexity in this manner,
Template IDs should not be reused as long as possible. Using new
Template ID until the exhaustion of the Template ID space achieves this
goal. However, I would not put a "MUST" because under the conditions
mentioned above, I can safely reuse Template IDs whenever I want.


Going beyond your question:

Reading the draft, it is difficult to understand its purpose. If I
understand correctly, it describes how to run IPFIX over multiple SCTP
streams in a beneficial way. Yet, most of section 5 explains common
IPFIX protocol behavior as specified in RFC 5101. It is difficult to see
at which points the draft goes beyond RFC 5101.

I propose to focus on explaining the recommended usage of SCTP streams,
combined with explanations why this is beneficial. If you want to keep
the detailed description of Exporter and Collector side behavior, make
clear which parts are normal IPFIX behavior and which parts are
according to your recommendations.

Further comments/questions:

        An Exporter uses multiple streams to export Data Sets.  In such
        a case, the Observation Domain MUST use the same Observation
        Domain ID value on all of the streams it uses.

This means that only one Observation Domain ID is allowed per
association. What is the reason for this restriction?

        Note: the idea of sending the (Options) Template Records on
        every single streams to which the Data Records corresponds to
        has been investigated.  However, [IPFIX-PROTO] specifies that
        the (Options) Templates Records are scoped by Transport Session,
        not per stream:

         "Template IDs are unique per SCTP association and per
          Observation Domain. ..."

Actually, RFC 5101 specifies that Template IDs (not Templates!) are
scoped per Transport Session. It does not forbid sending the same Option
Template with different Template IDs over different streams. And this
would solve the issue.

        The Template
        Withdrawal current draft specifies: "Redefinition of the Template ID is not
> encouraged. Instead, new Template ID SHOULD be used, until the
> exhaustion of the Template ID space."
> Do we want to put a MUST in that sentence?
>=20
> IMHO, a MUST would be a plus as:
> - it would considerably reduce the risk of losing Data Records in corne=
r
> cases when Template IDs are applicable across multiple streams

What do you mean by reducing the risk of losing Data Records?
After receiving the Template Withdrawal Message, is not allowed to
decode any further Data Records associated with this Template ID. Hence,
you will always lose Data Records which arrive too late, independently
of the stream.

> - the number of bits for the Template ID is huge enough. The Template I=
D
> would wrap up to the next available Template ID, for which the Template=

> Withdraw Message certainly had the time to reach the Collecting Process=
=2E
> - the implementation is easy.
>=20
> Feedback?

According to my understanding, Template IDs can be reused without losing
any Records if the following three conditions are fulfilled:
1) Template and associated Data Records are sent over the same stream
using ordered delivery.
2) Reutilization of Template IDs is restricted to the same stream.
3) "All Template Withdrawal Message" is not used to withdraw Templates
from multiple streams.

Note that 1) does not imply that there is one stream per Template.

If any of the above conditions is not fulfilled, Data Records may arrive
before a Template, or after a Template Withdrawal Message.
Furthermore, if a Template ID is reused very quickly, we might have
trouble with some delayed Data Records assigned to the old Template and
arriving after the new Template.

It would be possible to detect that such delayed Data Records do not
belong to the new Template because by comparing the export times of the
Template and the Data Records. Yet this means that the export time has
to be stored for every Template, and that the Collector must accomplish
this comparison for every Data Record.

If we do not want to increase the Collector complexity in this manner,
Template IDs should not be reused as long as possible. Using new
Template ID until the exhaustion of the Template ID space achieves this
goal. However, I would not put a "MUST" because under the conditions
mentioned above, I can safely reuse Template IDs whenever I want.


Going beyond your question:

Reading the draft, it is difficult to understand its purpose. If I
understand correctly, it describes how to run IPFIX over multiple SCTP
streams in a beneficial way. Yet, most of section 5 explains common
IPFIX protocol behavior as specified in RFC 5101. It is difficult to see
at which points the draft goes beyond RFC 5101.

I propose to focus on explaining the recommended usage of SCTP streams,
combined with explanations why this is beneficial. If you want to keep
the detailed description of Exporter and Collector side behavior, make
clear which parts are normal IPFIX behavior and which parts are
according to your recommendations.

Further comments/questions:

        An Exporter uses multiple streams to export Data Sets.  In such
        a case, the Observation Domain MUST use the same Observation
        Domain ID value on all of the streams it uses.

This means that only one Observation Domain ID is allowed per
association. What is the reason for this restriction?

        Note: the idea of sending the (Options) Template Records on
        every single streams to which the Data Records corresponds to
        has been investigated.  However, [IPFIX-PROTO] specifies that
        the (Options) Templates Records are scoped by Transport Session,
        not per stream:

         "Template IDs are unique per SCTP association and per
          Observation Domain. ..."

Actually, RFC 5101 specifies that Template IDs (not Templates!) are
scoped per Transport Session. It does not forbid sending the same Option
Template with different Template IDs over different streams. And this
would solve the issue.

        The Template
        Withdrawal Message SHOULD be sent in the last used stream that
        carried the Template ID to be removed.

but later:

        If the Collecting Process receives a Template Withdrawal Message
        on a different stream than the one on which the Template is
        used, then the Collecting Process MUST shutdown the association.

You have a SHOULD for the Exporter and a MUST for the Collector. The
described Collector behavior contradicts RFC 5101: "The Template
Withdrawal Message may be sent on any SCTP stream." So probably, the
association should not be shut down.

        If the Metering Process restarts, the Exporting Process MUST
        reuse the previously assigned Template ID for each Template and
        it MUST reuse the corresponding previously assigned stream for
        each Template ID. Alternatively, it MUST withdraw the previously
        issued Template IDs by sending Template Withdrawal Message(s)
        before reusing them. It can then use any available stream for
        the Template ID.

You have a MUST and an alternative MUST. Which one is the real MUST? Do
we really need this paragraph at all?

        If the measurement parameters change, the Template MUST be
        withdrawn (using a Template Withdrawal Message and a new
        Template definition) or an unused Template ID MUST be used.
        Examples of the measurement changes are: a new sampling rate, a
        new flow expiration process, a new filtering definition, etc. If
        a Template is changed, a Template Withdrawal Message MUST be
        sent to delete the Template.  Redefinition of the Template ID is
        not encouraged. Instead, new Template ID SHOULD be used, until
        the exhaustion of the Template ID space.

What is the reason for withdrawing Templates just because the
measurement parameters have changed? Wouldn't it be sufficient to send a
reliable Option Data Record with the new measurement parameters?

Regards,
Gerhard

--=20
Dipl.-Ing. Gerhard M=FCnz
Computer Networks and Internet
Wilhelm Schickard Institute for Computer Science
University of Tuebingen
Sand 13 (Room B309), D-72076 Tuebingen, Germany
Phone:  +49 7071 29-70534       Fax: +49 7071 29-5220
E-mail: muenz@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
WWW:    http://net.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/~muenz



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ggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUA Message SHOULD be sent in the last used stream that
        carried the Template ID to be removed.

but later:

        If the Collecting Process receives a Template Withdrawal Message
        on a different stream than the one on which the Template is
        used, then the Collecting Process MUST shutdown the association.

You have a SHOULD for the Exporter and a MUST for the Collector. The
described Collector behavior contradicts RFC 5101: "The Template
Withdrawal Message may be sent on any SCTP stream." So probably, the
association should not be shut down.

        If the Metering Process restarts, the Exporting Process MUST
        reuse the previously assigned Template ID for each Template and
        it MUST reuse the corresponding previously assigned stream for
        each Template ID. Alternatively, it MUST withdraw the previously
        issued Template IDs by sending Template Withdrawal Message(s)
        before reusing them. It can then use any available stream for
        the Template ID.

You have a MUST and an alternative MUST. Which one is the real MUST? Do
we really need this paragraph at all?

        If the measurement parameters change, the Template MUST be
        withdrawn (using a Template Withdrawal Message and a new
        Template definition) or an unused Template ID MUST be used.
        Examples of the measurement changes are: a new sampling rate, a
        new flow expiration process, a new filtering definition, etc. If
        a Template is changed, a Template Withdrawal Message MUST be
        sent to delete the Template.  Redefinition of the Template ID is
        not encouraged. Instead, new Template ID SHOULD be used, until
        the exhaustion of the Template ID space.

What is the reason for withdrawing Templates just because the
measurement parameters have changed? Wouldn't it be sufficient to send a
reliable Option Data Record with the new measurement parameters?

Regards,
Gerhard

--=20
Dipl.-Ing. Gerhard M=FCnz
Computer Networks and Internet
Wilhelm Schickard Institute for Computer Science
University of Tuebingen
Sand 13 (Room B309), D-72076 Tuebingen, Germany
Phone:  +49 7071 29-70534       Fax: +49 7071 29-5220
E-mail: muenz@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
WWW:    http://net.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/~muenz



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From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Feb 19 09:10:35 2008
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Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 18:10:17 +0100
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Per-SCTP stream draft: New Template ID SHOULD/MUST be
 used?
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Gerhard,

You had a series of very good comments, which proves that we're thinking 
along the same lines.
For the everybody's sake, let me take a step back and explain the 
problems we try to solve by sending template per-SCTP stream.
This should answer some questions below, such as "What do you mean by 
reducing the risk of losing Data Records?"

_Problem 1:_
- when a template ID is used by multiple streams, and a template 
withdrawal message is sent on one of the those streams, then the other 
streams must allow enough time for the template withdrawal message to 
reach the collector before they can reuse the template ID, which is 
something they cannot know.
More importantly, the template withdrawal message cannot be sent on the 
first stream until it knows that all the other streams have transmitted 
their corresponding data records - which is also impossible to know.

It's true that RFC5101 specifies:

   The Template Withdrawal Message MUST NOT be sent until sufficient
   time has elapsed to allow the Collecting Process to receive and
   process the last Data Record using this Template information.  This
   time MUST be configurable.  A suitable default value is 5 seconds
   after the last Data Record has been sent.

But it's not always possible to guarantee that 5 seconds is enough. So 
we might lose data records.

_Problem 2:_
In figure 4 of the current draft, the potential head of line blocking 
could imply that the data records in a different stream might arrive 
before the template records. In other words, no guarantee that the data 
records will always arrive after the template records, if the template 
record and data records are not sent in the same stream.

It's true that RFC5101 specifies:

   The Collecting Process normally receives Template Records from the
   Exporting Process before receiving Data Records.  The Data Records
   are then decoded and stored by the Collector.  If the Template
   Records have not been received at the time Data Records are received,
   the Collecting Process MAY store the Data Records for a short period
   of time and decode them after the Template Records are received.  A
   Collecting Process MUST NOT assume that the Data Set and the
   associated Template Set (or Options Template Set) are exported in the
   same IPFIX Message.

But we can't guarantee that the Collecting Process will not lose some 
data records ("MAY store")
_
More generic problem:_
Problems 1 and 2 are different problems, but with the same cause: the 
problems come from data records from the same template ID sent across 
different streams. Typically, the PSAMP option template record for sampling.
This is a current limitation/problem with IPFIX
We evaluated whether we can propose some improvements part of this 
per-SCTP draft, even if the per-SCTP draft goal was to export one 
template per stream to be able to deduce the data loss for each template 
record.

There are a couple of solutions, with the solution 1 being the preferred 
one. Hence the reverse order.

_Solution 3:_
As explained by Gehrard, look at the export time in the template 
records, data records, and template withdrawal message.
- This implies a more complex collecting process implementation as the 
old and new template records must kept to compare the time
  Note: potentially more than two template records must be kept if the 
definition of the template ID changes frequently
- This implies that we loose the real-time decode, as the collecting 
process must wait for a certain time, just in case a delayed template 
withdrawal message and a new template record is received. For this 
reason only, I think this solution is poor
- What if data record and template withdraw message were in the same 
IPFIX message? Probably it'd depend on the order within the message.


_Solution 2_
We could propose a series of specifications that would reduce the 
likelihood that problem 1 or 2 would happen
    - transmission order is maintained within a stream
    - redefinition of the Template ID is not encouraged
    - template withdrawal message SHOULD be sent in the last used stream 
that carried the template ID to be removed
    - etc..
The drawback of this solution is that, even if the likelihood is 
reduced, there is no guarantee that the problem 1 and 2 will not happen.
When I posted the initial email from this thread, I was still thinking 
along this solution 2

_Solution 1_
The template IDs are scoped per stream, next to the the Transport 
Session and Observation Domain that generated the Template ID.
Next to that, the transmission order per stream is maintained
In this case, problem 1 and problem 2 will never happen
The drawbacks are that
    - more template ID and records would be used. For example, the 
sampling option template record would require
      one template ID per stream and the export the "same" data record 
values per stream
    - "reducing redundancy" draft would not work across stream. Is this 
a big issue, I don't know!
Note that there is a simple solution to address those two drawbacks: 
never send a template withdrawal message, and make those template IDs 
permanent as long as the SCTP association is up. Nothing is changed on 
the collector side specifications, as it doesn't have to know that the 
template IDs are permanent
Now, the real question in this solution 1 is: what to do if we can't 
increase anymore the number of streams in the SCTP association?

    We export all the newly created template IDs and the associated data
    records on the stream 0 (as currently specified in the per-SCTP stream)
    Overloading the stream 0 is not an issue as the SCTP design is such
    that there is one pool of buffer and all streams will share it, i.e.
    "if you send  100k in one stream.. or 100k spread over all streams..
    it makes no difference" dixit Randy Stewart.
    Note: stream 0 is mentioned for historical but could very well be
    another one. I'm not even sure we even need to specify a certain stream
    Note that on that stream 0, we can't deduce the loss per template.


We think that the solution 1 is the best solution to address the 
problems described
Feedback?


Regards, Paul and Benoit.

> Benoit, all,
>
>   
>> During the last IETF meeting, we discussed the following open issue for
>> regarding
>> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ipfix/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-02.txt,
>> which concerns a current limitation in [IPFIX-PROTO]:
>>
>>     "Template IDs are unique per SCTP association and per Observation
>>     Domain. If the Collecting Process receives a Template that has
>>     already been received but that has not previously been withdrawn
>>     (i.e., a Template Record from the same Exporter Observation Domain
>>     with the same Template ID received on the SCTP association), then the
>>     Collecting Process MUST shut down the association."
>>
>>
>> The current draft specifies: "Redefinition of the Template ID is not
>> encouraged. Instead, new Template ID SHOULD be used, until the
>> exhaustion of the Template ID space."
>> Do we want to put a MUST in that sentence?
>>
>> IMHO, a MUST would be a plus as:
>> - it would considerably reduce the risk of losing Data Records in corner
>> cases when Template IDs are applicable across multiple streams
>>     
>
> What do you mean by reducing the risk of losing Data Records?
> After receiving the Template Withdrawal Message, is not allowed to
> decode any further Data Records associated with this Template ID. Hence,
> you will always lose Data Records which arrive too late, independently
> of the stream.
>
>   
>> - the number of bits for the Template ID is huge enough. The Template ID
>> would wrap up to the next available Template ID, for which the Template
>> Withdraw Message certainly had the time to reach the Collecting Process.
>> - the implementation is easy.
>>
>> Feedback?
>>     
>
> According to my understanding, Template IDs can be reused without losing
> any Records if the following three conditions are fulfilled:
> 1) Template and associated Data Records are sent over the same stream
> using ordered delivery.
> 2) Reutilization of Template IDs is restricted to the same stream.
> 3) "All Template Withdrawal Message" is not used to withdraw Templates
> from multiple streams.
>
> Note that 1) does not imply that there is one stream per Template.
>
> If any of the above conditions is not fulfilled, Data Records may arrive
> before a Template, or after a Template Withdrawal Message.
> Furthermore, if a Template ID is reused very quickly, we might have
> trouble with some delayed Data Records assigned to the old Template and
> arriving after the new Template.
>
> It would be possible to detect that such delayed Data Records do not
> belong to the new Template because by comparing the export times of the
> Template and the Data Records. Yet this means that the export time has
> to be stored for every Template, and that the Collector must accomplish
> this comparison for every Data Record.
>
> If we do not want to increase the Collector complexity in this manner,
> Template IDs should not be reused as long as possible. Using new
> Template ID until the exhaustion of the Template ID space achieves this
> goal. However, I would not put a "MUST" because under the conditions
> mentioned above, I can safely reuse Template IDs whenever I want.
>
>
> Going beyond your question:
>
> Reading the draft, it is difficult to understand its purpose. If I
> understand correctly, it describes how to run IPFIX over multiple SCTP
> streams in a beneficial way. Yet, most of section 5 explains common
> IPFIX protocol behavior as specified in RFC 5101. It is difficult to see
> at which points the draft goes beyond RFC 5101.
>
> I propose to focus on explaining the recommended usage of SCTP streams,
> combined with explanations why this is beneficial. If you want to keep
> the detailed description of Exporter and Collector side behavior, make
> clear which parts are normal IPFIX behavior and which parts are
> according to your recommendations.
>
> Further comments/questions:
>
>         An Exporter uses multiple streams to export Data Sets.  In such
>         a case, the Observation Domain MUST use the same Observation
>         Domain ID value on all of the streams it uses.
>
> This means that only one Observation Domain ID is allowed per
> association. What is the reason for this restriction?
>
>         Note: the idea of sending the (Options) Template Records on
>         every single streams to which the Data Records corresponds to
>         has been investigated.  However, [IPFIX-PROTO] specifies that
>         the (Options) Templates Records are scoped by Transport Session,
>         not per stream:
>
>          "Template IDs are unique per SCTP association and per
>           Observation Domain. ..."
>
> Actually, RFC 5101 specifies that Template IDs (not Templates!) are
> scoped per Transport Session. It does not forbid sending the same Option
> Template with different Template IDs over different streams. And this
> would solve the issue.
>
>         The Template
>         Withdrawal Message SHOULD be sent in the last used stream that
>         carried the Template ID to be removed.
>
> but later:
>
>         If the Collecting Process receives a Template Withdrawal Message
>         on a different stream than the one on which the Template is
>         used, then the Collecting Process MUST shutdown the association.
>
> You have a SHOULD for the Exporter and a MUST for the Collector. The
> described Collector behavior contradicts RFC 5101: "The Template
> Withdrawal Message may be sent on any SCTP stream." So probably, the
> association should not be shut down.
>
>         If the Metering Process restarts, the Exporting Process MUST
>         reuse the previously assigned Template ID for each Template and
>         it MUST reuse the corresponding previously assigned stream for
>         each Template ID. Alternatively, it MUST withdraw the previously
>         issued Template IDs by sending Template Withdrawal Message(s)
>         before reusing them. It can then use any available stream for
>         the Template ID.
>
> You have a MUST and an alternative MUST. Which one is the real MUST? Do
> we really need this paragraph at all?
>
>         If the measurement parameters change, the Template MUST be
>         withdrawn (using a Template Withdrawal Message and a new
>         Template definition) or an unused Template ID MUST be used.
>         Examples of the measurement changes are: a new sampling rate, a
>         new flow expiration process, a new filtering definition, etc. If
>         a Template is changed, a Template Withdrawal Message MUST be
>         sent to delete the Template.  Redefinition of the Template ID is
>         not encouraged. Instead, new Template ID SHOULD be used, until
>         the exhaustion of the Template ID space.
>
> What is the reason for withdrawing Templates just because the
> measurement parameters have changed? Wouldn't it be sufficient to send a
> reliable Option Data Record with the new measurement parameters?
>
> Regards,
> Gerhard
>
>   


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Gerhard, <br>
<br>
You had a series of very good comments, which proves that we're
thinking along the same lines.<br>
For the everybody's sake, let me take a step back and explain the
problems we try to solve by sending template per-SCTP stream.<br>
This should answer some questions below, such as "What do you mean by
reducing the risk of losing Data Records?"<br>
<br>
<u>Problem 1:</u><br>
- when a template ID is used by multiple streams, and a template
withdrawal message is sent on one of the those streams, then the other
streams must allow enough time for the template withdrawal message to
reach the collector before they can reuse the template ID, which is
something they cannot know.<br>
More importantly, the template withdrawal message cannot be sent on the
first stream until it knows that all the other streams have transmitted
their corresponding data records - which is also impossible to know.
<br>
<br>
It's true that RFC5101 specifies: <br>
<pre>   The Template Withdrawal Message MUST NOT be sent until sufficient
   time has elapsed to allow the Collecting Process to receive and
   process the last Data Record using this Template information.  This
   time MUST be configurable.  A suitable default value is 5 seconds
   after the last Data Record has been sent.</pre>
But it's not always possible to guarantee that 5 seconds is enough. So
we might lose data records.<br>
<br>
<u>Problem 2:</u><br>
In figure 4 of the current draft, the potential head of line blocking
could imply that the data records in a different stream might arrive
before the template records. In other words, no guarantee that the data
records will always arrive after the template records, if the template
record and data records are not sent in the same stream.<br>
<br>
It's true that RFC5101 specifies: <br>
<pre>   The Collecting Process normally receives Template Records from the
   Exporting Process before receiving Data Records.  The Data Records
   are then decoded and stored by the Collector.  If the Template
   Records have not been received at the time Data Records are received,
   the Collecting Process MAY store the Data Records for a short period
   of time and decode them after the Template Records are received.  A
   Collecting Process MUST NOT assume that the Data Set and the
   associated Template Set (or Options Template Set) are exported in the
   same IPFIX Message.</pre>
But we can't guarantee that the Collecting Process will not lose some
data records ("MAY store")<br>
<u><br>
More generic problem:</u><br>
Problems 1 and 2 are different problems, but with the same cause: the
problems come from data records from the same template ID sent across
different streams. Typically, the PSAMP option template record for
sampling.<br>
This is a current limitation/problem with IPFIX<br>
We evaluated whether we can propose some improvements part of this
per-SCTP draft, even if the per-SCTP draft goal was to export one
template per stream to be able to deduce the data loss for each
template record.<br>
<br>
There are a couple of solutions, with the solution 1 being the
preferred one. Hence the reverse order.<br>
<br>
<u>Solution 3:</u><br>
As explained by Gehrard, look at the export time in the template
records, data records, and template withdrawal message.<br>
- This implies a more complex collecting process implementation as the
old and new template records must kept to compare the time<br>
&nbsp; Note: potentially more than two template records must be kept if the
definition of the template ID changes frequently<br>
- This implies that we loose the real-time decode, as the collecting
process must wait for a certain time, just in case a delayed template
withdrawal message and a new template record is received. For this
reason only, I think this solution is poor<br>
- What if data record and template withdraw message were in the same
IPFIX message? Probably it'd depend on the order within the message.<br>
<br>
<br>
<u>Solution 2</u><br>
We could propose a series of specifications that would reduce the
likelihood that problem 1 or 2 would happen<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - transmission order is maintained within a stream<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - redefinition of the Template ID is not encouraged<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - template withdrawal message SHOULD be sent in the last used
stream that carried the template ID to be removed<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - etc..<br>
The drawback of this solution is that, even if the likelihood is
reduced, there is no guarantee that the problem 1 and 2 will not happen.<br>
When I posted the initial email from this thread, I was still thinking
along this solution 2<br>
<br>
<u>Solution 1</u><br>
The template IDs are scoped per stream, next to the the Transport
Session and Observation Domain that generated the Template ID.<br>
Next to that, the transmission order per stream is maintained<br>
<font color="#000000">In this case, problem 1 and problem 2 will never
happen</font><br>
The drawbacks are that<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - more template ID and records would be used. For example, the
sampling option template record would require <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; one template ID per stream and the export the "same" data record
values per stream<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - "reducing redundancy" draft would not work across stream. Is this
a big issue, I don't know!<br>
Note that there is a simple solution to address those two drawbacks:
never send a template withdrawal message, and make those template IDs
permanent as long as the SCTP association is up. Nothing is changed on
the collector side specifications, as it doesn't have to know that the
template IDs are permanent<br>
Now, the real question in this solution 1 is: what to do if we can't
increase anymore the number of streams in the SCTP association?<br>
<blockquote>We export all the newly created template IDs and the
associated data records on the stream 0 (as currently specified in the
per-SCTP stream)<br>
Overloading the stream 0 is not an issue as the SCTP design is such
that there is one pool of buffer and all streams will share it, i.e.
"if you send&nbsp; 100k in
one stream.. or 100k spread over all streams.. it makes no
difference" dixit Randy Stewart.<br>
Note: stream 0 is mentioned for historical but could very well be
another one. I'm not even sure we even need to specify a certain stream<br>
Note that on that stream 0, we can't deduce the loss per template.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
We think that the solution 1 is the best solution to address the
problems described<br>
Feedback?<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards, Paul and Benoit.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid47B99735.6050200@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">Benoit, all,

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">During the last IETF meeting, we discussed the following open issue for
regarding
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ipfix/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-02.txt">http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ipfix/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-02.txt</a>,
which concerns a current limitation in [IPFIX-PROTO]:

    "Template IDs are unique per SCTP association and per Observation
    Domain. If the Collecting Process receives a Template that has
    already been received but that has not previously been withdrawn
    (i.e., a Template Record from the same Exporter Observation Domain
    with the same Template ID received on the SCTP association), then the
    Collecting Process MUST shut down the association."


The current draft specifies: "Redefinition of the Template ID is not
encouraged. Instead, new Template ID SHOULD be used, until the
exhaustion of the Template ID space."
Do we want to put a MUST in that sentence?

IMHO, a MUST would be a plus as:
- it would considerably reduce the risk of losing Data Records in corner
cases when Template IDs are applicable across multiple streams
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
What do you mean by reducing the risk of losing Data Records?
After receiving the Template Withdrawal Message, is not allowed to
decode any further Data Records associated with this Template ID. Hence,
you will always lose Data Records which arrive too late, independently
of the stream.

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">- the number of bits for the Template ID is huge enough. The Template ID
would wrap up to the next available Template ID, for which the Template
Withdraw Message certainly had the time to reach the Collecting Process.
- the implementation is easy.

Feedback?
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
According to my understanding, Template IDs can be reused without losing
any Records if the following three conditions are fulfilled:
1) Template and associated Data Records are sent over the same stream
using ordered delivery.
2) Reutilization of Template IDs is restricted to the same stream.
3) "All Template Withdrawal Message" is not used to withdraw Templates
from multiple streams.

Note that 1) does not imply that there is one stream per Template.

If any of the above conditions is not fulfilled, Data Records may arrive
before a Template, or after a Template Withdrawal Message.
Furthermore, if a Template ID is reused very quickly, we might have
trouble with some delayed Data Records assigned to the old Template and
arriving after the new Template.

It would be possible to detect that such delayed Data Records do not
belong to the new Template because by comparing the export times of the
Template and the Data Records. Yet this means that the export time has
to be stored for every Template, and that the Collector must accomplish
this comparison for every Data Record.

If we do not want to increase the Collector complexity in this manner,
Template IDs should not be reused as long as possible. Using new
Template ID until the exhaustion of the Template ID space achieves this
goal. However, I would not put a "MUST" because under the conditions
mentioned above, I can safely reuse Template IDs whenever I want.


Going beyond your question:

Reading the draft, it is difficult to understand its purpose. If I
understand correctly, it describes how to run IPFIX over multiple SCTP
streams in a beneficial way. Yet, most of section 5 explains common
IPFIX protocol behavior as specified in RFC 5101. It is difficult to see
at which points the draft goes beyond RFC 5101.

I propose to focus on explaining the recommended usage of SCTP streams,
combined with explanations why this is beneficial. If you want to keep
the detailed description of Exporter and Collector side behavior, make
clear which parts are normal IPFIX behavior and which parts are
according to your recommendations.

Further comments/questions:

        An Exporter uses multiple streams to export Data Sets.  In such
        a case, the Observation Domain MUST use the same Observation
        Domain ID value on all of the streams it uses.

This means that only one Observation Domain ID is allowed per
association. What is the reason for this restriction?

        Note: the idea of sending the (Options) Template Records on
        every single streams to which the Data Records corresponds to
        has been investigated.  However, [IPFIX-PROTO] specifies that
        the (Options) Templates Records are scoped by Transport Session,
        not per stream:

         "Template IDs are unique per SCTP association and per
          Observation Domain. ..."

Actually, RFC 5101 specifies that Template IDs (not Templates!) are
scoped per Transport Session. It does not forbid sending the same Option
Template with different Template IDs over different streams. And this
would solve the issue.

        The Template
        Withdrawal Message SHOULD be sent in the last used stream that
        carried the Template ID to be removed.

but later:

        If the Collecting Process receives a Template Withdrawal Message
        on a different stream than the one on which the Template is
        used, then the Collecting Process MUST shutdown the association.

You have a SHOULD for the Exporter and a MUST for the Collector. The
described Collector behavior contradicts RFC 5101: "The Template
Withdrawal Message may be sent on any SCTP stream." So probably, the
association should not be shut down.

        If the Metering Process restarts, the Exporting Process MUST
        reuse the previously assigned Template ID for each Template and
        it MUST reuse the corresponding previously assigned stream for
        each Template ID. Alternatively, it MUST withdraw the previously
        issued Template IDs by sending Template Withdrawal Message(s)
        before reusing them. It can then use any available stream for
        the Template ID.

You have a MUST and an alternative MUST. Which one is the real MUST? Do
we really need this paragraph at all?

        If the measurement parameters change, the Template MUST be
        withdrawn (using a Template Withdrawal Message and a new
        Template definition) or an unused Template ID MUST be used.
        Examples of the measurement changes are: a new sampling rate, a
        new flow expiration process, a new filtering definition, etc. If
        a Template is changed, a Template Withdrawal Message MUST be
        sent to delete the Template.  Redefinition of the Template ID is
        not encouraged. Instead, new Template ID SHOULD be used, until
        the exhaustion of the Template ID space.

What is the reason for withdrawing Templates just because the
measurement parameters have changed? Wouldn't it be sufficient to send a
reliable Option Data Record with the new measurement parameters?

Regards,
Gerhard

  </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
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Gerhard,

You had a series of very good comments, which proves that we're thinking 
along the same lines.
For the everybody's sake, let me take a step back and explain the 
problems we try to solve by sending template per-SCTP stream.
This should answer some questions below, such as "What do you mean by 
reducing the risk of losing Data Records?"

_Problem 1:_
- when a template ID is used by multiple streams, and a template 
withdrawal message is sent on one of the those streams, then the other 
streams must allow enough time for the template withdrawal message to 
reach the collector before they can reuse the template ID, which is 
something they cannot know.
More importantly, the template withdrawal message cannot be sent on the 
first stream until it knows that all the other streams have transmitted 
their corresponding data records - which is also impossible to know.

It's true that RFC5101 specifies:

   The Template Withdrawal Message MUST NOT be sent until sufficient
   time has elapsed to allow the Collecting Process to receive and
   process the last Data Record using this Template information.  This
   time MUST be configurable.  A suitable default value is 5 seconds
   after the last Data Record has been sent.

But it's not always possible to guarantee that 5 seconds is enough. So 
we might lose data records.

_Problem 2:_
In figure 4 of the current draft, the potential head of line blocking 
could imply that the data records in a different stream might arrive 
before the template records. In other words, no guarantee that the data 
records will always arrive after the template records, if the template 
record and data records are not sent in the same stream.

It's true that RFC5101 specifies:

   The Collecting Process normally receives Template Records from the
   Exporting Process before receiving Data Records.  The Data Records
   are then decoded and stored by the Collector.  If the Template
   Records have not been received at the time Data Records are received,
   the Collecting Process MAY store the Data Records for a short period
   of time and decode them after the Template Records are received.  A
   Collecting Process MUST NOT assume that the Data Set and the
   associated Template Set (or Options Template Set) are exported in the
   same IPFIX Message.

But we can't guarantee that the Collecting Process will not lose some 
data records ("MAY store")
_
More generic problem:_
Problems 1 and 2 are different problems, but with the same cause: the 
problems come from data records from the same template ID sent across 
different streams. Typically, the PSAMP option template record for sampling.
This is a current limitation/problem with IPFIX
We evaluated whether we can propose some improvements part of this 
per-SCTP draft, even if the per-SCTP draft goal was to export one 
template per stream to be able to deduce the data loss for each template 
record.

There are a couple of solutions, with the solution 1 being the preferred 
one. Hence the reverse order.

_Solution 3:_
As explained by Gehrard, look at the export time in the template 
records, data records, and template withdrawal message.
- This implies a more complex collecting process implementation as the 
old and new template records must kept to compare the time
  Note: potentially more than two template records must be kept if the 
definition of the template ID changes frequently
- This implies that we loose the real-time decode, as the collecting 
process must wait for a certain time, just in case a delayed template 
withdrawal message and a new template record is received. For this 
reason only, I think this solution is poor
- What if data record and template withdraw message were in the same 
IPFIX message? Probably it'd depend on the order within the message.


_Solution 2_
We could propose a series of specifications that would reduce the 
likelihood that problem 1 or 2 would happen
    - transmission order is maintained within a stream
    - redefinition of the Template ID is not encouraged
    - template withdrawal message SHOULD be sent in the last used stream 
that carried the template ID to be removed
    - etc..
The drawback of this solution is that, even if the likelihood is 
reduced, there is no guarantee that the problem 1 and 2 will not happen.
When I posted the initial email from this thread, I was still thinking 
along this solution 2

_Solution 1_
The template IDs are scoped per stream, next to the the Transport 
Session and Observation Domain that generated the Template ID.
Next to that, the transmission order per stream is maintained
In this case, problem 1 and problem 2 will never happen
The drawbacks are that
    - more template ID and records would be used. For example, the 
sampling option template record would require
      one template ID per stream and the export the "same" data record 
values per stream
    - "reducing redundancy" draft would not work across stream. Is this 
a big issue, I don't know!
Note that there is a simple solution to address those two drawbacks: 
never send a template withdrawal message, and make those template IDs 
permanent as long as the SCTP association is up. Nothing is changed on 
the collector side specifications, as it doesn't have to know that the 
template IDs are permanent
Now, the real question in this solution 1 is: what to do if we can't 
increase anymore the number of streams in the SCTP association?

    We export all the newly created template IDs and the associated data
    records on the stream 0 (as currently specified in the per-SCTP stream)
    Overloading the stream 0 is not an issue as the SCTP design is such
    that there is one pool of buffer and all streams will share it, i.e.
    "if you send  100k in one stream.. or 100k spread over all streams..
    it makes no difference" dixit Randy Stewart.
    Note: stream 0 is mentioned for historical but could very well be
    another one. I'm not even sure we even need to specify a certain stream
    Note that on that stream 0, we can't deduce the loss per template.


We think that the solution 1 is the best solution to address the 
problems described
Feedback?


Regards, Paul and Benoit.

> Benoit, all,
>
>   
>> During the last IETF meeting, we discussed the following open issue for
>> regarding
>> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ipfix/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-02.txt,
>> which concerns a current limitation in [IPFIX-PROTO]:
>>
>>     "Template IDs are unique per SCTP association and per Observation
>>     Domain. If the Collecting Process receives a Template that has
>>     already been received but that has not previously been withdrawn
>>     (i.e., a Template Record from the same Exporter Observation Domain
>>     with the same Template ID received on the SCTP association), then the
>>     Collecting Process MUST shut down the association."
>>
>>
>> The current draft specifies: "Redefinition of the Template ID is not
>> encouraged. Instead, new Template ID SHOULD be used, until the
>> exhaustion of the Template ID space."
>> Do we want to put a MUST in that sentence?
>>
>> IMHO, a MUST would be a plus as:
>> - it would considerably reduce the risk of losing Data Records in corner
>> cases when Template IDs are applicable across multiple streams
>>     
>
> What do you mean by reducing the risk of losing Data Records?
> After receiving the Template Withdrawal Message, is not allowed to
> decode any further Data Records associated with this Template ID. Hence,
> you will always lose Data Records which arrive too late, independently
> of the stream.
>
>   
>> - the number of bits for the Template ID is huge enough. The Template ID
>> would wrap up to the next available Template ID, for which the Template
>> Withdraw Message certainly had the time to reach the Collecting Process.
>> - the implementation is easy.
>>
>> Feedback?
>>     
>
> According to my understanding, Template IDs can be reused without losing
> any Records if the following three conditions are fulfilled:
> 1) Template and associated Data Records are sent over the same stream
> using ordered delivery.
> 2) Reutilization of Template IDs is restricted to the same stream.
> 3) "All Template Withdrawal Message" is not used to withdraw Templates
> from multiple streams.
>
> Note that 1) does not imply that there is one stream per Template.
>
> If any of the above conditions is not fulfilled, Data Records may arrive
> before a Template, or after a Template Withdrawal Message.
> Furthermore, if a Template ID is reused very quickly, we might have
> trouble with some delayed Data Records assigned to the old Template and
> arriving after the new Template.
>
> It would be possible to detect that such delayed Data Records do not
> belong to the new Template because by comparing the export times of the
> Template and the Data Records. Yet this means that the export time has
> to be stored for every Template, and that the Collector must accomplish
> this comparison for every Data Record.
>
> If we do not want to increase the Collector complexity in this manner,
> Template IDs should not be reused as long as possible. Using new
> Template ID until the exhaustion of the Template ID space achieves this
> goal. However, I would not put a "MUST" because under the conditions
> mentioned above, I can safely reuse Template IDs whenever I want.
>
>
> Going beyond your question:
>
> Reading the draft, it is difficult to understand its purpose. If I
> understand correctly, it describes how to run IPFIX over multiple SCTP
> streams in a beneficial way. Yet, most of section 5 explains common
> IPFIX protocol behavior as specified in RFC 5101. It is difficult to see
> at which points the draft goes beyond RFC 5101.
>
> I propose to focus on explaining the recommended usage of SCTP streams,
> combined with explanations why this is beneficial. If you want to keep
> the detailed description of Exporter and Collector side behavior, make
> clear which parts are normal IPFIX behavior and which parts are
> according to your recommendations.
>
> Further comments/questions:
>
>         An Exporter uses multiple streams to export Data Sets.  In such
>         a case, the Observation Domain MUST use the same Observation
>         Domain ID value on all of the streams it uses.
>
> This means that only one Observation Domain ID is allowed per
> association. What is the reason for this restriction?
>
>         Note: the idea of sending the (Options) Template Records on
>         every single streams to which the Data Records corresponds to
>         has been investigated.  However, [IPFIX-PROTO] specifies that
>         the (Options) Templates Records are scoped by Transport Session,
>         not per stream:
>
>          "Template IDs are unique per SCTP association and per
>           Observation Domain. ..."
>
> Actually, RFC 5101 specifies that Template IDs (not Templates!) are
> scoped per Transport Session. It does not forbid sending the same Option
> Template with different Template IDs over different streams. And this
> would solve the issue.
>
>         The Template
>         Withdrawal Message SHOULD be sent in the last used stream that
>         carried the Template ID to be removed.
>
> but later:
>
>         If the Collecting Process receives a Template Withdrawal Message
>         on a different stream than the one on which the Template is
>         used, then the Collecting Process MUST shutdown the association.
>
> You have a SHOULD for the Exporter and a MUST for the Collector. The
> described Collector behavior contradicts RFC 5101: "The Template
> Withdrawal Message may be sent on any SCTP stream." So probably, the
> association should not be shut down.
>
>         If the Metering Process restarts, the Exporting Process MUST
>         reuse the previously assigned Template ID for each Template and
>         it MUST reuse the corresponding previously assigned stream for
>         each Template ID. Alternatively, it MUST withdraw the previously
>         issued Template IDs by sending Template Withdrawal Message(s)
>         before reusing them. It can then use any available stream for
>         the Template ID.
>
> You have a MUST and an alternative MUST. Which one is the real MUST? Do
> we really need this paragraph at all?
>
>         If the measurement parameters change, the Template MUST be
>         withdrawn (using a Template Withdrawal Message and a new
>         Template definition) or an unused Template ID MUST be used.
>         Examples of the measurement changes are: a new sampling rate, a
>         new flow expiration process, a new filtering definition, etc. If
>         a Template is changed, a Template Withdrawal Message MUST be
>         sent to delete the Template.  Redefinition of the Template ID is
>         not encouraged. Instead, new Template ID SHOULD be used, until
>         the exhaustion of the Template ID space.
>
> What is the reason for withdrawing Templates just because the
> measurement parameters have changed? Wouldn't it be sufficient to send a
> reliable Option Data Record with the new measurement parameters?
>
> Regards,
> Gerhard
>
>   


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Gerhard, <br>
<br>
You had a series of very good comments, which proves that we're
thinking along the same lines.<br>
For the everybody's sake, let me take a step back and explain the
problems we try to solve by sending template per-SCTP stream.<br>
This should answer some questions below, such as "What do you mean by
reducing the risk of losing Data Records?"<br>
<br>
<u>Problem 1:</u><br>
- when a template ID is used by multiple streams, and a template
withdrawal message is sent on one of the those streams, then the other
streams must allow enough time for the template withdrawal message to
reach the collector before they can reuse the template ID, which is
something they cannot know.<br>
More importantly, the template withdrawal message cannot be sent on the
first stream until it knows that all the other streams have transmitted
their corresponding data records - which is also impossible to know.
<br>
<br>
It's true that RFC5101 specifies: <br>
<pre>   The Template Withdrawal Message MUST NOT be sent until sufficient
   time has elapsed to allow the Collecting Process to receive and
   process the last Data Record using this Template information.  This
   time MUST be configurable.  A suitable default value is 5 seconds
   after the last Data Record has been sent.</pre>
But it's not always possible to guarantee that 5 seconds is enough. So
we might lose data records.<br>
<br>
<u>Problem 2:</u><br>
In figure 4 of the current draft, the potential head of line blocking
could imply that the data records in a different stream might arrive
before the template records. In other words, no guarantee that the data
records will always arrive after the template records, if the template
record and data records are not sent in the same stream.<br>
<br>
It's true that RFC5101 specifies: <br>
<pre>   The Collecting Process normally receives Template Records from the
   Exporting Process before receiving Data Records.  The Data Records
   are then decoded and stored by the Collector.  If the Template
   Records have not been received at the time Data Records are received,
   the Collecting Process MAY store the Data Records for a short period
   of time and decode them after the Template Records are received.  A
   Collecting Process MUST NOT assume that the Data Set and the
   associated Template Set (or Options Template Set) are exported in the
   same IPFIX Message.</pre>
But we can't guarantee that the Collecting Process will not lose some
data records ("MAY store")<br>
<u><br>
More generic problem:</u><br>
Problems 1 and 2 are different problems, but with the same cause: the
problems come from data records from the same template ID sent across
different streams. Typically, the PSAMP option template record for
sampling.<br>
This is a current limitation/problem with IPFIX<br>
We evaluated whether we can propose some improvements part of this
per-SCTP draft, even if the per-SCTP draft goal was to export one
template per stream to be able to deduce the data loss for each
template record.<br>
<br>
There are a couple of solutions, with the solution 1 being the
preferred one. Hence the reverse order.<br>
<br>
<u>Solution 3:</u><br>
As explained by Gehrard, look at the export time in the template
records, data records, and template withdrawal message.<br>
- This implies a more complex collecting process implementation as the
old and new template records must kept to compare the time<br>
&nbsp; Note: potentially more than two template records must be kept if the
definition of the template ID changes frequently<br>
- This implies that we loose the real-time decode, as the collecting
process must wait for a certain time, just in case a delayed template
withdrawal message and a new template record is received. For this
reason only, I think this solution is poor<br>
- What if data record and template withdraw message were in the same
IPFIX message? Probably it'd depend on the order within the message.<br>
<br>
<br>
<u>Solution 2</u><br>
We could propose a series of specifications that would reduce the
likelihood that problem 1 or 2 would happen<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - transmission order is maintained within a stream<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - redefinition of the Template ID is not encouraged<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - template withdrawal message SHOULD be sent in the last used
stream that carried the template ID to be removed<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - etc..<br>
The drawback of this solution is that, even if the likelihood is
reduced, there is no guarantee that the problem 1 and 2 will not happen.<br>
When I posted the initial email from this thread, I was still thinking
along this solution 2<br>
<br>
<u>Solution 1</u><br>
The template IDs are scoped per stream, next to the the Transport
Session and Observation Domain that generated the Template ID.<br>
Next to that, the transmission order per stream is maintained<br>
<font color="#000000">In this case, problem 1 and problem 2 will never
happen</font><br>
The drawbacks are that<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - more template ID and records would be used. For example, the
sampling option template record would require <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; one template ID per stream and the export the "same" data record
values per stream<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - "reducing redundancy" draft would not work across stream. Is this
a big issue, I don't know!<br>
Note that there is a simple solution to address those two drawbacks:
never send a template withdrawal message, and make those template IDs
permanent as long as the SCTP association is up. Nothing is changed on
the collector side specifications, as it doesn't have to know that the
template IDs are permanent<br>
Now, the real question in this solution 1 is: what to do if we can't
increase anymore the number of streams in the SCTP association?<br>
<blockquote>We export all the newly created template IDs and the
associated data records on the stream 0 (as currently specified in the
per-SCTP stream)<br>
Overloading the stream 0 is not an issue as the SCTP design is such
that there is one pool of buffer and all streams will share it, i.e.
"if you send&nbsp; 100k in
one stream.. or 100k spread over all streams.. it makes no
difference" dixit Randy Stewart.<br>
Note: stream 0 is mentioned for historical but could very well be
another one. I'm not even sure we even need to specify a certain stream<br>
Note that on that stream 0, we can't deduce the loss per template.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
We think that the solution 1 is the best solution to address the
problems described<br>
Feedback?<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards, Paul and Benoit.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid47B99735.6050200@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">Benoit, all,

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">During the last IETF meeting, we discussed the following open issue for
regarding
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ipfix/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-02.txt">http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ipfix/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-02.txt</a>,
which concerns a current limitation in [IPFIX-PROTO]:

    "Template IDs are unique per SCTP association and per Observation
    Domain. If the Collecting Process receives a Template that has
    already been received but that has not previously been withdrawn
    (i.e., a Template Record from the same Exporter Observation Domain
    with the same Template ID received on the SCTP association), then the
    Collecting Process MUST shut down the association."


The current draft specifies: "Redefinition of the Template ID is not
encouraged. Instead, new Template ID SHOULD be used, until the
exhaustion of the Template ID space."
Do we want to put a MUST in that sentence?

IMHO, a MUST would be a plus as:
- it would considerably reduce the risk of losing Data Records in corner
cases when Template IDs are applicable across multiple streams
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
What do you mean by reducing the risk of losing Data Records?
After receiving the Template Withdrawal Message, is not allowed to
decode any further Data Records associated with this Template ID. Hence,
you will always lose Data Records which arrive too late, independently
of the stream.

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">- the number of bits for the Template ID is huge enough. The Template ID
would wrap up to the next available Template ID, for which the Template
Withdraw Message certainly had the time to reach the Collecting Process.
- the implementation is easy.

Feedback?
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
According to my understanding, Template IDs can be reused without losing
any Records if the following three conditions are fulfilled:
1) Template and associated Data Records are sent over the same stream
using ordered delivery.
2) Reutilization of Template IDs is restricted to the same stream.
3) "All Template Withdrawal Message" is not used to withdraw Templates
from multiple streams.

Note that 1) does not imply that there is one stream per Template.

If any of the above conditions is not fulfilled, Data Records may arrive
before a Template, or after a Template Withdrawal Message.
Furthermore, if a Template ID is reused very quickly, we might have
trouble with some delayed Data Records assigned to the old Template and
arriving after the new Template.

It would be possible to detect that such delayed Data Records do not
belong to the new Template because by comparing the export times of the
Template and the Data Records. Yet this means that the export time has
to be stored for every Template, and that the Collector must accomplish
this comparison for every Data Record.

If we do not want to increase the Collector complexity in this manner,
Template IDs should not be reused as long as possible. Using new
Template ID until the exhaustion of the Template ID space achieves this
goal. However, I would not put a "MUST" because under the conditions
mentioned above, I can safely reuse Template IDs whenever I want.


Going beyond your question:

Reading the draft, it is difficult to understand its purpose. If I
understand correctly, it describes how to run IPFIX over multiple SCTP
streams in a beneficial way. Yet, most of section 5 explains common
IPFIX protocol behavior as specified in RFC 5101. It is difficult to see
at which points the draft goes beyond RFC 5101.

I propose to focus on explaining the recommended usage of SCTP streams,
combined with explanations why this is beneficial. If you want to keep
the detailed description of Exporter and Collector side behavior, make
clear which parts are normal IPFIX behavior and which parts are
according to your recommendations.

Further comments/questions:

        An Exporter uses multiple streams to export Data Sets.  In such
        a case, the Observation Domain MUST use the same Observation
        Domain ID value on all of the streams it uses.

This means that only one Observation Domain ID is allowed per
association. What is the reason for this restriction?

        Note: the idea of sending the (Options) Template Records on
        every single streams to which the Data Records corresponds to
        has been investigated.  However, [IPFIX-PROTO] specifies that
        the (Options) Templates Records are scoped by Transport Session,
        not per stream:

         "Template IDs are unique per SCTP association and per
          Observation Domain. ..."

Actually, RFC 5101 specifies that Template IDs (not Templates!) are
scoped per Transport Session. It does not forbid sending the same Option
Template with different Template IDs over different streams. And this
would solve the issue.

        The Template
        Withdrawal Message SHOULD be sent in the last used stream that
        carried the Template ID to be removed.

but later:

        If the Collecting Process receives a Template Withdrawal Message
        on a different stream than the one on which the Template is
        used, then the Collecting Process MUST shutdown the association.

You have a SHOULD for the Exporter and a MUST for the Collector. The
described Collector behavior contradicts RFC 5101: "The Template
Withdrawal Message may be sent on any SCTP stream." So probably, the
association should not be shut down.

        If the Metering Process restarts, the Exporting Process MUST
        reuse the previously assigned Template ID for each Template and
        it MUST reuse the corresponding previously assigned stream for
        each Template ID. Alternatively, it MUST withdraw the previously
        issued Template IDs by sending Template Withdrawal Message(s)
        before reusing them. It can then use any available stream for
        the Template ID.

You have a MUST and an alternative MUST. Which one is the real MUST? Do
we really need this paragraph at all?

        If the measurement parameters change, the Template MUST be
        withdrawn (using a Template Withdrawal Message and a new
        Template definition) or an unused Template ID MUST be used.
        Examples of the measurement changes are: a new sampling rate, a
        new flow expiration process, a new filtering definition, etc. If
        a Template is changed, a Template Withdrawal Message MUST be
        sent to delete the Template.  Redefinition of the Template ID is
        not encouraged. Instead, new Template ID SHOULD be used, until
        the exhaustion of the Template ID space.

What is the reason for withdrawing Templates just because the
measurement parameters have changed? Wouldn't it be sufficient to send a
reliable Option Data Record with the new measurement parameters?

Regards,
Gerhard

  </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
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Dear all,

A new IPFIX-related draft has been posted.
RFC 5102 specifies in section 7.1:

   The specification of new IPFIX Information Elements MUST use the
   template specified in Section 2.1 and MUST be published using a
   well-established and persistent publication medium.  ...

And this draft draft-aitken-ipfix-new-infos-01.txt is the well 
persistent publication medium. ;-)

Regards, Benoit.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	New Version Notification for draft-aitken-ipfix-new-infos-01
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To: 	bclaise@cisco.com
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A new version of I-D, draft-aitken-ipfix-new-infos-01.txt has been successfuly submitted by Benoit Claise and posted to theFrom ipfix-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Feb 19 14:57:45 2008
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Dear all,

A new IPFIX-related draft has been posted.
RFC 5102 specifies in section 7.1:

   The specification of new IPFIX Information Elements MUST use the
   template specified in Section 2.1 and MUST be published using a
   well-established and persistent publication medium.  ...

And this draft draft-aitken-ipfix-new-infos-01.txt is the well 
persistent publication medium. ;-)

Regards, Benoit.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	New Version Notification for draft-aitken-ipfix-new-infos-01
Date: 	Tue, 19 Feb 2008 07:30:27 -0800 (PST)
From: 	IETF I-D Submission Tool <idsubmission@ietf.org>
To: 	bclaise@cisco.com
CC: 	paitken@cisco.com



A new version of I-D, draft-aitken-ipfix-new-infos-01.txt has been successfuly submitted by Benoit Claise and posted to the IETF repository.

Filename:	 draft-aitken-ipfix-new-infos
Revision:	 01
Title:		 New Information Elements from the IPFIX Information Model
Creation_date:	 2008-02-18
WG ID:		 Independent Submission
Number_of_pages: 26

Abstract:
This document specifies the IPFIX protocol that serves for 
transmitting IP traffic flow information over the network.  In order 

 
 
  Aitken, Claise



Standard Track





  [page 1] 
New Information Elements for the IPFIX Information Model  February 2008 

to transmit IP traffic flow information from an exporting process to 
an information collecting process, a common representation of flow 
data and a standard means of communicating them is required. This 
document describes how the IPFIX data and templates records are 
carried over a number of transport protocols from an IPFIX exporting 
process to an IPFIX collecting process. 
 
 Conventions used in this document 
  
The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", 
"SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this 
document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119 [RFC2119].
                                                                                  


The IETF Secretariat.



--------------040209010904070004090501
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Dear all,<br>
<br>
A new IPFIX-related draft has been posted.<br>
RFC 5102 specifies in section 7.1:
<br>
<br>
   The specification of new IPFIX Information Elements MUST use the
<br>
   template specified in Section 2.1 and MUST be published using a
<br>
   well-established and persistent publication medium.  ...<br>
<br>
And this draft draft-aitken-ipfix-new-infos-01.txt
is the well persistent publication medium. ;-)<br>
<br>
Regards, Benoit.<br>
-------- Original Message --------
<table class="moz-email-headers-table" border="0" cellpadding="0"
 cellspacing="0">
  <tbody>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">Subject: </th>
      <td>New Version Notification for draft-aitken-ipfix-new-infos-01</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">Date: </th>
      <td>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 07:30:27 -0800 (PST)</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">From: </th>
      <td>IETF I-D Submission Tool <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:idsubmission@ietf.org">&lt;idsubmission@ietf.org&gt;</a></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">To: </th>
      <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">bclaise@cisco.com</a></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">CC: </th>
      <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paitken@cisco.com">paitken@cisco.com</a></td>
    </tr>
  </tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
<pre>A new version of I-D, draft-aitken-ipfix-new-infos-01.txt has been successfuly submitted by Benoit Claise and posted to the IETF repository.

Filename:	 draft-aitken-ipfix-new-infos
Revision:	 01
Title:		 New Information Elements from the IPFIX Information Model
Creation_date:	 2008-02-18
WG ID:		 Independent Submission
Number_of_pages: 26

Abstract:
This document specifies the IPFIX protocol that serves for 
transmitting IP traffic flow information over the network.  In order 

 
 
  Aitken, Claise



Standard Track





  [page 1] 
New Information Elements for the IPFIX Information Model  February 2008 

to transmit IP traffic flow information from an exporting process to 
an information collecting process, a common representation of flow 
data and a standard means of communicating them is required. This 
document describes how the IPFIX data and templates records are 
carried over a number of transport protocols from an IPFIX exporting 
process to an IPFIX collecting process. 
 
 Conventions used in this document 
  
The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED" IETF repository.

Filename:	 draft-aitken-ipfix-new-infos
Revision:	 01
Title:		 New Information Elements from the IPFIX Information Model
Creation_date:	 2008-02-18
WG ID:		 Independent Submission
Number_of_pages: 26

Abstract:
This document specifies the IPFIX protocol that serves for 
transmitting IP traffic flow information over the network.  In order 

 
 
  Aitken, Claise



Standard Track





  [page 1] 
New Information Elements for the IPFIX Information Model  February 2008 

to transmit IP traffic flow information from an exporting process to 
an information collecting process, a common representation of flow 
data and a standard means of communicating them is required. This 
document describes how the IPFIX data and templates records are 
carried over a number of transport protocols from an IPFIX exporting 
process to an IPFIX collecting process. 
 
 Conventions used in this document 
  
The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", 
"SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this 
document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119 [RFC2119].
                                                                                  


The IETF Secretariat.



--------------040209010904070004090501
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Dear all,<br>
<br>
A new IPFIX-related draft has been posted.<br>
RFC 5102 specifies in section 7.1:
<br>
<br>
   The specification of new IPFIX Information Elements MUST use the
<br>
   template specified in Section 2.1 and MUST be published using a
<br>
   well-established and persistent publication medium.  ...<br>
<br>
And this draft draft-aitken-ipfix-new-infos-01.txt
is the well persistent publication medium. ;-)<br>
<br>
Regards, Benoit.<br>
-------- Original Message --------
<table class="moz-email-headers-table" border="0" cellpadding="0"
 cellspacing="0">
  <tbody>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">Subject: </th>
      <td>New Version Notification for draft-aitken-ipfix-new-infos-01</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">Date: </th>
      <td>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 07:30:27 -0800 (PST)</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">From: </th>
      <td>IETF I-D Submission Tool <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:idsubmission@ietf.org">&lt;idsubmission@ietf.org&gt;</a></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">To: </th>
      <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bclaise@cisco.com">bclaise@cisco.com</a></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">CC: </th>
      <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paitken@cisco.com">paitken@cisco.com</a></td>
    </tr>
  </tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
<pre>A new version of I-D, draft-aitken-ipfix-new-infos-01.txt has been successfuly submitted by Benoit Claise and posted to the IETF repository.

Filename:	 draft-aitken-ipfix-new-infos
Revision:	 01
Title:		 New Information Elements from the IPFIX Information Model
Creation_date:	 2008-02-18
WG ID:		 Independent Submission
Number_of_pages: 26

Abstract:
This document specifies the IPFIX protocol that serves for 
transmitting IP traffic flow information over the network.  In order 

 
 
  Aitken, Claise



Standard Track





  [page 1] 
New Information Elements for the IPFIX Information Model  February 2008 

to transmit IP traffic flow information from an exporting process to 
an information collecting process, a common representation of flow 
data and a standard means of communicating them is required. This 
document describes how the IPFIX data and templates records are 
carried over a number of transport protocols from an IPFIX exporting 
process to an IPFIX collecting process. 
 
 Conventions used in this document 
  
The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", 
"SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this 
document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119 [RFC2119].
                                                                                  


The IETF Secretariat.

</pre>
</body>
</html>

--------------040209010904070004090501--

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_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFIX@ietf.org
http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix

--===============1993763554==--


, "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", 
"SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this 
document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119 [RFC2119].
                                                                                  


The IETF Secretariat.

</pre>
</body>
</html>

--------------040209010904070004090501--

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_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFIX@ietf.org
http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix

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Cc: "ipfix@ietf.org" <ipfix@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Per-SCTP stream draft: New Template ID SHOULD/MUST be
 used?
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Benoit, Paul,

> Solution 1
> The template IDs are scoped per stream, next to the the Transport
> Session and Observation Domain that generated the Template ID.

Do you mean to change the scope of Template IDs as specified in RFC5101?
In my opinion, we should not change the protocol specifications as long
as we can achieve the same result by a clever usage of the current
protocol.

Changing the scope of Template IDs is necessary only if you want to use
the same Template ID on different streams. However, I assume that the
Template ID space is large enough (and much larger than the number of
available streams) to assign unique IDs per Transport Session. Then, if
a given Template ID is used, withdrawn, and reused exclusively on one
stream, we achieve the same result.

> Next to that, the transmission order per stream is maintained

Yes, that is a necessary condition.

> In this case, problem 1 and problem 2 will never happen
> The drawbacks are that
>     - more template ID and records would be used. For example, the
> sampling option template record would require
>       one template ID per stream and the export the "same" data record
> values per stream
>     - "reducing redundancy" draft would not work across stream. Is this=

> a big issue, I don't know!
> Note that there is a simple solution to address those two drawbacks:
> never send a template withdrawal message, and make those template IDs
> permanent as long as the SCTP association is up. Nothing is changed on
> the collector side specifications, as it doesn't have to know that the
> template IDs are permanent

It is a trade-off because now, the collector has to store numerous
unused Templates until the end of the association.
It should be up to the administrator's preferences if he prefers not to
withdraw Templates because he wants to use reducing redundancy with the
same Template over multiple streams and pay for it with higher memory
requirements at the collector.

> Now, the real question in this solution 1 is: what to do if we can't
> increase anymore the number of streams in the SCTP association?
>=20
>     We export all the newly created template IDs and the associated dat=
a
>     records on the stream 0 (as currently specified in the per-SCTP str=
eam)
>     Overloading the stream 0 is not an issue as the SCTP design is such=

>     that there is one pool of buffer and all streams will share it, i.e=
=2E
>     "if you send  100k in one stream.. or 100k spread over all streams.=
=2E
>     it makes no difference" dixit Randy Stewart.
>     Note: stream 0 is mentioned for historical but could very well be
>     another one. I'm not even sure we even need to specify a certain st=
ream
>     Note that on that stream 0, we can't deduce the loss per template.

The main advantage of using separate streams for different Templates is
that you can calculate the record loss per Template. This might not be
required for all Templates. So the administrator can chose for which
Templates he wants to have a separate stream. He can also group several
Templates in one stream if the loss rate for the whole group is
sufficient for the statistics.

We also need to add that "All Template Withdrawal Message" is not used.

Regards,
Gerhard

--=20
Dipl.-Ing. Gerhard M=FCnz
Computer Networks and Internet
Wilhelm Schickard Institute for Computer Science
University of Tuebingen
Sand 13 (Room B309), D-72076 Tuebingen, Germany
Phone:  +49 7071 29-70534       Fax: +49 7071 29-5220
E-mail: muenz@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
WWW:    http://net.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/~muenz


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Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 11:01:08 +0100
From: Gerhard Muenz <muenz@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
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Cc: "ipfix@ietf.org" <ipfix@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Per-SCTP stream draft: New Template ID SHOULD/MUST be
 used?
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Benoit, Paul,

> Solution 1
> The template IDs are scoped per stream, next to the the Transport
> Session and Observation Domain that generated the Template ID.

Do you mean to change the scope of Template IDs as specified in RFC5101?
In my opinion, we should not change the protocol specifications as long
as we can achieve the same result by a clever usage of the current
protocol.

Changing the scope of Template IDs is necessary only if you want to use
the same Template ID on different streams. However, I assume that the
Template ID space is large enough (and much larger than the number of
available streams) to assign unique IDs per Transport Session. Then, if
a given Template ID is used, withdrawn, and reused exclusively on one
stream, we achieve the same result.

> Next to that, the transmission order per stream is maintained

Yes, that is a necessary condition.

> In this case, problem 1 and problem 2 will never happen
> The drawbacks are that
>     - more template ID and records would be used. For example, the
> sampling option template record would require
>       one template ID per stream and the export the "same" data record
> values per stream
>     - "reducing redundancy" draft would not work across stream. Is this=

> a big issue, I don't know!
> Note that there is a simple solution to address those two drawbacks:
> never send a template withdrawal message, and make those template IDs
> permanent as long as the SCTP association is up. Nothing is changed on
> the collector side specifications, as it doesn't have to know that the
> template IDs are permanent

It is a trade-off because now, the collector has to store numerous
unused Templates until the end of the association.
It should be up to the administrator's preferences if he prefers not to
withdraw Templates because he wants to use reducing redundancy with the
same Template over multiple streams and pay for it with higher memory
requirements at the collector.

> Now, the real question in this solution 1 is: what to do if we can't
> increase anymore the number of streams in the SCTP association?
>=20
>     We export all the newly created template IDs and the associated dat=
a
>     records on the stream 0 (as currently specified in the per-SCTP str=
eam)
>     Overloading the stream 0 is not an issue as the SCTP design is such=

>     that there is one pool of buffer and all streams will share it, i.e=
=2E
>     "if you send  100k in one stream.. or 100k spread over all streams.=
=2E
>     it makes no difference" dixit Randy Stewart.
>     Note: stream 0 is mentioned for historical but could very well be
>     another one. I'm not even sure we even need to specify a certain st=
ream
>     Note that on that stream 0, we can't deduce the loss per template.

The main advantage of using separate streams for different Templates is
that you can calculate the record loss per Template. This might not be
required for all Templates. So the administrator can chose for which
Templates he wants to have a separate stream. He can also group several
Templates in one stream if the loss rate for the whole group is
sufficient for the statistics.

We also need to add that "All Template Withdrawal Message" is not used.

Regards,
Gerhard

--=20
Dipl.-Ing. Gerhard M=FCnz
Computer Networks and Internet
Wilhelm Schickard Institute for Computer Science
University of Tuebingen
Sand 13 (Room B309), D-72076 Tuebingen, Germany
Phone:  +49 7071 29-70534       Fax: +49 7071 29-5220
E-mail: muenz@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
WWW:    http://net.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/~muenz


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Cc: "ipfix@ietf.org" <ipfix@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Per-SCTP stream draft: New Template ID SHOULD/MUST be
 used?
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Gerhard,
> Benoit, Paul,
>
>   
>> Solution 1
>> The template IDs are scoped per stream, next to the the Transport
>> Session and Observation Domain that generated the Template ID.
>>     
>
> Do you mean to change the scope of Template IDs as specified in RFC5101?
> In my opinion, we should not change the protocol specifications as long
> as we can achieve the same result by a clever usage of the current
> protocol.
>
> Changing the scope of Template IDs is necessary only if you want to use
> the same Template ID on different streams. However, I assume that the
> Template ID space is large enough (and much larger than the number of
> available streams) to assign unique IDs per Transport Session. Then, if
> a given Template ID is used, withdrawn, and reused exclusively on one
> stream, we achieve the same result.
>   
So basically you say: let's not scope the Template IDs per stream, but 
let's make sure that a Template ID is not used across multiple streams.
>   
>> Next to that, the transmission order per stream is maintained
>>     
>
> Yes, that is a necessary condition.
>
>   
>> In this case, problem 1 and problem 2 will never happen
>> The drawbacks are that
>>     - more template ID and records would be used. For example, the
>> sampling option template record would require
>>       one template ID per stream and the export the "same" data record
>> values per stream
>>     - "reducing redundancy" draft would not work across stream. Is this
>> a big issue, I don't know!
>> Note that there is a simple solution to address those two drawbacks:
>> never send a template withdrawal message, and make those template IDs
>> permanent as long as the SCTP association is up. Nothing is changed on
>> the collector side specifications, as it doesn't have to know that the
>> template IDs are permanent
>>     
>
> It is a trade-off because now, the collector has to store numerous
> unused Templates until the end of the association.
> It should be up to the administrator's preferences if he prefers not to
> withdraw Templates because he wants to use reducing redundancy with the
> same Template over multiple streams and pay for it with higher memory
> requirements at the collector.
>
>   
>> Now, the real question in this solution 1 is: what to do if we can't
>> increase anymore the number of streams in the SCTP association?
>>
>>     We export all the newly created template IDs and the associated data
>>     records on the stream 0 (as currently specified in the per-SCTP stream)
>>     Overloading the stream 0 is not an issue as the SCTP design is such
>>     that there is one pool of buffer and all streams will share it, i.e.
>>     "if you send  100k in one stream.. or 100k spread over all streams..
>>     it makes no difference" dixit Randy Stewart.
>>     Note: stream 0 is mentioned for historical but could very well be
>>     another one. I'm not even sure we even need to specify a certain stream
>>     Note that on that stream 0, we can't deduce the loss per template.
>>     
>
> The main advantage of using separate streams for different Templates is
> that you can calculate the record loss per Template. This might not be
> required for all Templates. So the administrator can chose for which
> Templates he wants to have a separate stream. He can also group several
> Templates in one stream if the loss rate for the whole group is
> sufficient for the statistics.
>   
I like this idea.

> We also need to add that "All Template Withdrawal Message" is not used.
>   
Yes.

Regards, Benoit
> Regards,
> Gerhard
>
>   


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Gerhard,
<blockquote cite="mid47BBFA64.1080807@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">Benoit, Paul,

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Solution 1
The template IDs are scoped per stream, next to the the Transport
Session and Observation Domain that generated the Template ID.
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
Do you mean to change the scope of Template IDs as specified in RFC5101?
In my opinion, we should not change the protocol specifications as long
as we can achieve the same result by a clever usage of the current
protocol.

Changing the scope of Template IDs is necessary only if you want to use
the same Template ID on different streams. However, I assume that the
Template ID space is large enough (and much larger than the number of
available streams) to assign unique IDs per Transport Session. Then, if
a given Template ID is used, withdrawn, and reused exclusively on one
stream, we achieve the same result.
  </pre>
</blockquote>
So basically you say: let's not scope the Template IDs per stream, but
let's make sure that a Template ID is not used across multiple streams.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid47BBFA64.1080807@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Next to that, the transmission order per stream is maintained
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
Yes, that is a necessary condition.

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">In this case, problem 1 and problem 2 will never happen
The drawbacks are that
    - more template ID and records would be used. For example, the
sampling option template record would require
      one template ID per stream and the export the "same" data record
values per stream
    - "reducing redundancy" draft would not work across stream. Is this
a big issue, I don't know!
Note that there is a simple solution to address those two drawbacks:
never send a template withdrawal message, and make those template IDs
permanent as long as the SCTP association is up. Nothing is changed on
the collector side specifications, as it doesn't have to know that the
template IDs are permanent
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
It is a trade-off because now, the collector has to store numerous
unused Templates until the end of the association.
It should be up to the administrator's preferences if he prefers not to
withdraw Templates because he wants to use reducing redundancy with the
same Template over multiple streams and pay for it with higher memory
requirements at the collector.

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Now, the real question in this solution 1 is: what to do if we can't
increase anymore the number of streams in the SCTP association?

    We export all the newly created template IDs and the associated data
    records on the stream 0 (as currently specified in the per-SCTP stream)
    Overloading the stream 0 is not an issue as the SCTP design is such
    that there is one pool of buffer and all streams will share it, i.e.
    "if you send  100k in one stream.. or 100k spread over all streams..
    it makes no difference" dixit Randy Stewart.
    Note: stream 0 is mentioned for historical but could very well be
    another one. I'm not even sure we even need to specify a certain stream
    Note that on that stream 0, we can't deduce the loss per template.
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
The main advantage of using separate streams for different Templates is
that you can calculate the record loss per Template. This might not be
required for all Templates. So the administrator can chose for which
Templates he wants to have a separate stream. He can also group several
Templates in one stream if the loss rate for the whole group is
sufficient for the statistics.
  </pre>
</blockquote>
I like this idea.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid47BBFA64.1080807@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">
We also need to add that "All Template Withdrawal Message" is not used.
  </pre>
</blockquote>
Yes.<br>
<br>
Regards, Benoit<br>
<blockquote cite="mid47BBFA64.1080807@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">
Regards,
Gerhard

  </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
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Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:58:26 +0100
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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	<47BB0D79.7030703@cisco.com>
	<47BBFA64.1080807@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
In-Reply-To: <47BBFA64.1080807@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
Cc: "ipfix@ietf.org" <ipfix@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Per-SCTP stream draft: New Template ID SHOULD/MUST be
 used?
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Gerhard,
> Benoit, Paul,
>
>   
>> Solution 1
>> The template IDs are scoped per stream, next to the the Transport
>> Session and Observation Domain that generated the Template ID.
>>     
>
> Do you mean to change the scope of Template IDs as specified in RFC5101?
> In my opinion, we should not change the protocol specifications as long
> as we can achieve the same result by a clever usage of the current
> protocol.
>
> Changing the scope of Template IDs is necessary only if you want to use
> the same Template ID on different streams. However, I assume that the
> Template ID space is large enough (and much larger than the number of
> available streams) to assign unique IDs per Transport Session. Then, if
> a given Template ID is used, withdrawn, and reused exclusively on one
> stream, we achieve the same result.
>   
So basically you say: let's not scope the Template IDs per stream, but 
let's make sure that a Template ID is not used across multiple streams.
>   
>> Next to that, the transmission order per stream is maintained
>>     
>
> Yes, that is a necessary condition.
>
>   
>> In this case, problem 1 and problem 2 will never happen
>> The drawbacks are that
>>     - more template ID and records would be used. For example, the
>> sampling option template record would require
>>       one template ID per stream and the export the "same" data record
>> values per stream
>>     - "reducing redundancy" draft would not work across stream. Is this
>> a big issue, I don't know!
>> Note that there is a simple solution to address those two drawbacks:
>> never send a template withdrawal message, and make those template IDs
>> permanent as long as the SCTP association is up. Nothing is changed on
>> the collector side specifications, as it doesn't have to know that the
>> template IDs are permanent
>>     
>
> It is a trade-off because now, the collector has to store numerous
> unused Templates until the end of the association.
> It should be up to the administrator's preferences if he prefers not to
> withdraw Templates because he wants to use reducing redundancy with the
> same Template over multiple streams and pay for it with higher memory
> requirements at the collector.
>
>   
>> Now, the real question in this solution 1 is: what to do if we can't
>> increase anymore the number of streams in the SCTP association?
>>
>>     We export all the newly created template IDs and the associated data
>>     records on the stream 0 (as currently specified in the per-SCTP stream)
>>     Overloading the stream 0 is not an issue as the SCTP design is such
>>     that there is one pool of buffer and all streams will share it, i.e.
>>     "if you send  100k in one stream.. or 100k spread over all streams..
>>     it makes no difference" dixit Randy Stewart.
>>     Note: stream 0 is mentioned for historical but could very well be
>>     another one. I'm not even sure we even need to specify a certain stream
>>     Note that on that stream 0, we can't deduce the loss per template.
>>     
>
> The main advantage of using separate streams for different Templates is
> that you can calculate the record loss per Template. This might not be
> required for all Templates. So the administrator can chose for which
> Templates he wants to have a separate stream. He can also group several
> Templates in one stream if the loss rate for the whole group is
> sufficient for the statistics.
>   
I like this idea.

> We also need to add that "All Template Withdrawal Message" is not used.
>   
Yes.

Regards, Benoit
> Regards,
> Gerhard
>
>   


--------------080909050404040600090804
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Gerhard,
<blockquote cite="mid47BBFA64.1080807@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">Benoit, Paul,

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Solution 1
The template IDs are scoped per stream, next to the the Transport
Session and Observation Domain that generated the Template ID.
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
Do you mean to change the scope of Template IDs as specified in RFC5101?
In my opinion, we should not change the protocol specifications as long
as we can achieve the same result by a clever usage of the current
protocol.

Changing the scope of Template IDs is necessary only if you want to use
the same Template ID on different streams. However, I assume that the
Template ID space is large enough (and much larger than the number of
available streams) to assign unique IDs per Transport Session. Then, if
a given Template ID is used, withdrawn, and reused exclusively on one
stream, we achieve the same result.
  </pre>
</blockquote>
So basically you say: let's not scope the Template IDs per stream, but
let's make sure that a Template ID is not used across multiple streams.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid47BBFA64.1080807@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Next to that, the transmission order per stream is maintained
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
Yes, that is a necessary condition.

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">In this case, problem 1 and problem 2 will never happen
The drawbacks are that
    - more template ID and records would be used. For example, the
sampling option template record would require
      one template ID per stream and the export the "same" data record
values per stream
    - "reducing redundancy" draft would not work across stream. Is this
a big issue, I don't know!
Note that there is a simple solution to address those two drawbacks:
never send a template withdrawal message, and make those template IDs
permanent as long as the SCTP association is up. Nothing is changed on
the collector side specifications, as it doesn't have to know that the
template IDs are permanent
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
It is a trade-off because now, the collector has to store numerous
unused Templates until the end of the association.
It should be up to the administrator's preferences if he prefers not to
withdraw Templates because he wants to use reducing redundancy with the
same Template over multiple streams and pay for it with higher memory
requirements at the collector.

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Now, the real question in this solution 1 is: what to do if we can't
increase anymore the number of streams in the SCTP association?

    We export all the newly created template IDs and the associated data
    records on the stream 0 (as currently specified in the per-SCTP stream)
    Overloading the stream 0 is not an issue as the SCTP design is such
    that there is one pool of buffer and all streams will share it, i.e.
    "if you send  100k in one stream.. or 100k spread over all streams..
    it makes no difference" dixit Randy Stewart.
    Note: stream 0 is mentioned for historical but could very well be
    another one. I'm not even sure we even need to specify a certain stream
    Note that on that stream 0, we can't deduce the loss per template.
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
The main advantage of using separate streams for different Templates is
that you can calculate the record loss per Template. This might not be
required for all Templates. So the administrator can chose for which
Templates he wants to have a separate stream. He can also group several
Templates in one stream if the loss rate for the whole group is
sufficient for the statistics.
  </pre>
</blockquote>
I like this idea.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid47BBFA64.1080807@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">
We also need to add that "All Template Withdrawal Message" is not used.
  </pre>
</blockquote>
Yes.<br>
<br>
Regards, Benoit<br>
<blockquote cite="mid47BBFA64.1080807@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">
Regards,
Gerhard

  </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>

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Hi all:

WG last call for the IPFIX NIB draft (-01.txt) finished back in
December, and there were several comments made.  Seems to me we
need a new revision to respond to those comments, then we can
submit it to IESG for publication.  Thomas, have I got that right,
and can we expect a new revision sometime soon, please?

Cheers, Nevil (IPFIX co-chair)

---------------------------------------------------------------------
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  Phone: +64 9 373 7599 x88941             The University of Auckland
  FAX: +64 9 373 7453   Private Bag 92019, Auckland 1142, New Zealand



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Hi all:

WG last call for the IPFIX NIB draft (-01.txt) finished back in
December, and there were several comments made.  Seems to me we
need a new revision to respond to those comments, then we can
submit it to IESG for publication.  Thomas, have I got that right,
and can we expect a new revision sometime soon, please?

Cheers, Nevil (IPFIX co-chair)

---------------------------------------------------------------------
  Nevil Brownlee                    Computer Science Department | ITS
  Phone: +64 9 373 7599 x88941             The University of Auckland
  FAX: +64 9 373 7453   Private Bag 92019, Auckland 1142, New Zealand



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Hi all:

I've put together a draft agenda for our meeting in Philadelphia,
appended below.  Please send me any suggestions/changes/improvements,
so I can update the agenda.

Cheers, Nevil

---------------------------------------------------------------------
  Nevil Brownlee                    Computer Science Department | ITS
  Phone: +64 9 373 7599 x88941             The University of Auckland
  FAX: +64 9 373 7453   Private Bag 92019, Auckland 1142, New Zealand


IETF #71, Philadelphia
Tuesday, 11 March 08 at 1720-1950
 >>> IETF 71 agenda is still in DRAFT, this time may change <<<
======================================================

Chairs:
Nevil Brownlee  <n.brownlee@auckland.ac.nz>
Juergen Quittek <quittek@netlab.nec.de>

AGENDA:

1. Agenda review WG Status                              = 5 min

2. Internet-Draft status                                = 9 min
      [Published:
        - RFC 5101 IPFIX Protocol
        - RFC 5102 IPFIX Information Model
        - RFC 5103 IPFIX Biflows
       In RFC Editor queue:
        - draft-ietf-ipfix-architecture-12.txt
        - draft-ietf-ipfix-as-12.txt
        - draft-ietf-ipfix-reducing-redundancy-04.txt
        - draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-08.txt
       In IETF Last Call:
        - draft-ietf-ipfix-testing-04.txt ]

    - draft-ietf-psamp-framework-12.txt  [Nick Duffield] Jun 07
    - draft-ietf-psamp-sample-tech-10.txt  [Tanja Zseby] Jun 07
    - draft-ietf-psamp-protocol-09.txt   [Benoit Claise] Dec 07
    - draft-ietf-psamp-info-07.txt        [Thomas Dietz] Oct 07

3. Drafts from the old charter ..                       = 5 min
    a) IPFIX MIB (Thomas Dietz)
       - draft-dietz-ipfix-mib-02.txt  Dec 07

4. New WG drafts                                        =26 min
    Two new WG drafts, as agreed on the list after IETF 70:
    a) IPFIX File Format (Brian Trammell)                   ( 5 min)
       - draft-ietf-ipfix-file-00.txt

    b) Exporting Type Information for IPFIX IEs (Elisa Boschi)
       - draft-ietf-ipfix-exporting-type-00.txt             ( 5 min)

    Two more drafts that need to accepted as WG items:
    [These need support/consensus, demonstrated by having 3 or more
    people who'll read and review them]
    a) Configuration Data Model                             ( 8 min)
       - draft-muenz-ipfix-configuration-03.txt

    b) IPFIX Per-Stream SCTP reporting (Benoit CLaise)      ( 8 min)
       - draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-02.txt

5. IPFIX Mediation                                       =55 min
    a) IPFIX Mediation: Problem Statement (Kobayashi Atsushi)  (15 min)
       -  draft-kobayashi-ipfix-large-ps-00.txt
          "Problems with Flow Collection in Large-Scale Networks"

    b) IPFIX Mediation: Framework
       - draft-kobayashi-ipfix-mediator-model-01.txt        (40 min)
       - draft-dressler-ipfix-aggregation-04.txt
       We need to decide how to proceed with the WG's
       'Mediation Framework' draft

6. Other Drafts                                         =15 min
       New IEs for the IPFIX Information Model (Paul Aitken)
       - draft-aitken-ipfix-new-infos-01.txt

7. Any Other Business                                   = 5 min

8. Wrap up, milestone review                            =10 min

---------------------------------------------------------------

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Hi all:

I've put together a draft agenda for our meeting in Philadelphia,
appended below.  Please send me any suggestions/changes/improvements,
so I can update the agenda.

Cheers, Nevil

---------------------------------------------------------------------
  Nevil Brownlee                    Computer Science Department | ITS
  Phone: +64 9 373 7599 x88941             The University of Auckland
  FAX: +64 9 373 7453   Private Bag 92019, Auckland 1142, New Zealand


IETF #71, Philadelphia
Tuesday, 11 March 08 at 1720-1950
 >>> IETF 71 agenda is still in DRAFT, this time may change <<<
======================================================

Chairs:
Nevil Brownlee  <n.brownlee@auckland.ac.nz>
Juergen Quittek <quittek@netlab.nec.de>

AGENDA:

1. Agenda review WG Status                              = 5 min

2. Internet-Draft status                                = 9 min
      [Published:
        - RFC 5101 IPFIX Protocol
        - RFC 5102 IPFIX Information Model
        - RFC 5103 IPFIX Biflows
       In RFC Editor queue:
        - draft-ietf-ipfix-architecture-12.txt
        - draft-ietf-ipfix-as-12.txt
        - draft-ietf-ipfix-reducing-redundancy-04.txt
        - draft-ietf-ipfix-implementation-guidelines-08.txt
       In IETF Last Call:
        - draft-ietf-ipfix-testing-04.txt ]

    - draft-ietf-psamp-framework-12.txt  [Nick Duffield] Jun 07
    - draft-ietf-psamp-sample-tech-10.txt  [Tanja Zseby] Jun 07
    - draft-ietf-psamp-protocol-09.txt   [Benoit Claise] Dec 07
    - draft-ietf-psamp-info-07.txt        [Thomas Dietz] Oct 07

3. Drafts from the old charter ..                       = 5 min
    a) IPFIX MIB (Thomas Dietz)
       - draft-dietz-ipfix-mib-02.txt  Dec 07

4. New WG drafts                                        =26 min
    Two new WG drafts, as agreed on the list after IETF 70:
    a) IPFIX File Format (Brian Trammell)                   ( 5 min)
       - draft-ietf-ipfix-file-00.txt

    b) Exporting Type Information for IPFIX IEs (Elisa Boschi)
       - draft-ietf-ipfix-exporting-type-00.txt             ( 5 min)

    Two more drafts that need to accepted as WG items:
    [These need support/consensus, demonstrated by having 3 or more
    people who'll read and review them]
    a) Configuration Data Model                             ( 8 min)
       - draft-muenz-ipfix-configuration-03.txt

    b) IPFIX Per-Stream SCTP reporting (Benoit CLaise)      ( 8 min)
       - draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-02.txt

5. IPFIX Mediation                                       =55 min
    a) IPFIX Mediation: Problem Statement (Kobayashi Atsushi)  (15 min)
       -  draft-kobayashi-ipfix-large-ps-00.txt
          "Problems with Flow Collection in Large-Scale Networks"

    b) IPFIX Mediation: Framework
       - draft-kobayashi-ipfix-mediator-model-01.txt        (40 min)
       - draft-dressler-ipfix-aggregation-04.txt
       We need to decide how to proceed with the WG's
       'Mediation Framework' draft

6. Other Drafts                                         =15 min
       New IEs for the IPFIX Information Model (Paul Aitken)
       - draft-aitken-ipfix-new-infos-01.txt

7. Any Other Business                                   = 5 min

8. Wrap up, milestone review                            =10 min

---------------------------------------------------------------

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Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Per-SCTP stream draft: New Template ID SHOULD/MUST be
	used?
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Benoit, Gerhard, and all,

Replies inline; the most important one appears at the end, after  
Solution 1. Summary: we shouldn't change the protocol to redefine  
template scopes; it doesn't just break specific things but creates a  
new protocol; and, we should address dependent information sequencing  
at some point.

On Feb 19, 2008, at 12:10 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:

> Gerhard,
>
> You had a series of very good comments, which proves that we're  
> thinking along the same lines.
> For the everybody's sake, let me take a step back and explain the  
> problems we try to solve by sending template per-SCTP stream.
> This should answer some questions below, such as "What do you mean  
> by reducing the risk of losing Data Records?"
>
> Problem 1:
> - when a template ID is used by multiple streams, and a template  
> withdrawal message is sent on one of the those streams, then the  
> other streams must allow enough time for the template withdrawal  
> message to reach the collector before they can reuse the template  
> ID, which is something they cannot know.
> More importantly, the template withdrawal message cannot be sent on  
> the first stream until it knows that all the other streams have  
> transmitted their corresponding data records - which is also  
> impossible to know.
>
> It's true that RFC5101 specifies:
>    The Template Withdrawal Message MUST NOT be sent until sufficient
>    time has elapsed to allow the Collecting Process to receive and
>    process the last Data Record using this Template information.  This
>    time MUST be configurable.  A suitable default value is 5 seconds
>    after the last Data Record has been sent.
> But it's not always possible to guarantee that 5 seconds is enough.  
> So we might lose data records.

Indeed. Template withdrawals (like UDP) are dangerous, and in an ideal  
situation should not be used at all. They won't work reliably in the  
general-case, flexible multistream environment. But sometimes you'll  
get yourself into a situation where you need to withdraw templates,  
for whatever reason. So we give guidelines, as above, to minimize the  
damage should an exporter choose to use this feature.

(Aside: if data record loss avoidance is a prime requirement, use TCP  
or single-stream reliable SCTP.)

(Aside, aside: Can someone provide 1. the count of templates you're  
expecting to use within a single transport session and 2. example  
expected use cases for template withdrawals? In theory all this is  
broken, I agree, but I still can't really see situations where all  
these various template withdrawal problems will arise in the Real  
World (tm).)

> More generic problem:
> Problems 1 and 2 are different problems, but with the same cause:  
> the problems come from data records from the same template ID sent  
> across different streams. Typically, the PSAMP option template  
> record for sampling.

More generically still, the problems come from dependencies between  
IPFIX messages sent without sequencing guarantees. See comment on  
Solution 3 below.

> This is a current limitation/problem with IPFIX
> We evaluated whether we can propose some improvements part of this  
> per-SCTP draft, even if the per-SCTP draft goal was to export one  
> template per stream to be able to deduce the data loss for each  
> template record.
>
> There are a couple of solutions, with the solution 1 being the  
> preferred one. Hence the reverse order.
>
> Solution 3:
> As explained by Gehrard, look at the export time in the template  
> records, data records, and template withdrawal message.
> - This implies a more complex collecting process implementation as  
> the old and new template records must kept to compare the time
>   Note: potentially more than two template records must be kept if  
> the definition of the template ID changes frequently
> - This implies that we loose the real-time decode, as the collecting  
> process must wait for a certain time, just in case a delayed  
> template withdrawal message and a new template record is received.  
> For this reason only, I think this solution is poor
> - What if data record and template withdraw message were in the same  
> IPFIX message? Probably it'd depend on the order within the message.

The CP should be looking at export time when evaluating information  
dependencies (scoped options, templates), anyway. This is completely  
ignored by the protocol (though in retrospect perhaps it should have  
been), but there are really only two temporal scoping policies that  
make sense:

1. If dependencies cannot be withdrawn, then it can be held to be  
valid for the entirety of its enclosing outer scope (the transport  
session). In this case, ordering within the session is completely  
unimportant. This is pretty much, by default, how 5101 treats things,  
and I think how we think about these things on the list.

2. If dependencies may we withdrawn _AND REDEFINED_ (which is the  
point of template withdrawals, after all), then the ordering of these  
operations is critically important. Since ordering is important  
_across_ streams, we can't use the sequence number. The only sync  
signal we have that works across all streams is the export time.

Actually building out a consistent set of rules for handling dependent  
information could, I think, be done without changing the wire protocol  
or the EP at all; it could basically be a set of CP guidelines. Though  
I haven't thought all the way through the problem to be able to say  
that with much confidence, yet. IIRC Andrew and I discussed something  
along these lines in the form of a "scope user's guide" way back in  
San Diego, but haven't had a chance to do anything with it since then.

> Solution 2
> We could propose a series of specifications that would reduce the  
> likelihood that problem 1 or 2 would happen
>     - transmission order is maintained within a stream
>     - redefinition of the Template ID is not encouraged
>     - template withdrawal message SHOULD be sent in the last used  
> stream that carried the template ID to be removed
>     - etc..
> The drawback of this solution is that, even if the likelihood is  
> reduced, there is no guarantee that the problem 1 and 2 will not  
> happen.
> When I posted the initial email from this thread, I was still  
> thinking along this solution 2

Something along the lines of this solution is, I think, as good as we  
can do, in view of the issues with solution 1; see below.

An EP using the per-stream technique will not lose data records due to  
template withdrawals or template synchronization issues. This is an  
advantage of using per-stream. But per-stream is an option; a  
technique applicable to certain use cases that has specific advantages  
in those cases. It uses each template only on a single stream, and  
each stream has only a single template, but that is simply the EP's  
prerogative, not a property of the protocol.

An EP not using template withdrawals at all will not lose data records  
due to template withdrawals, trivially.

An EP choosing to use template withdrawals and cross-stream template  
definitions may generate a message stream it is difficult but not  
impossible for the CP to process without record loss. 5101 provides  
guidelines and warnings to this effect already.

(Again, data loss avoidance is _one_ requirement -- one policy -- that  
the mechanisms of the IPFIX protocol can be used to implement. It is  
not always of the utmost importance; otherwise we wouldn't support UDP  
and PR-SCTP.)

> Solution 1
> The template IDs are scoped per stream, next to the the Transport  
> Session and Observation Domain that generated the Template ID.
> Next to that, the transmission order per stream is maintained
> In this case, problem 1 and problem 2 will never happen
> The drawbacks are that
>     - more template ID and records would be used. For example, the  
> sampling option template record would require
>       one template ID per stream and the export the "same" data  
> record values per stream
>     - "reducing redundancy" draft would not work across stream. Is  
> this a big issue, I don't know!

Indeed, this would cause options template records used for other than  
MP/EP metadata export (as in RFC5103, ipfix-exporting-type, ipfix- 
reducing-redundancy) not to work across streams.

I agree with Gerhard (in his reply to this message): we shouldn't  
change the protocol. And this proposal does define a new protocol. RFC  
5103 EPs would be incapable of interoperating with CPs that failed to  
interpret cross-stream templates. 5103 CPs would be incapable of  
interoperating with EPs that caused template collision.

I would also repeat strenuously my warnings from the last time we  
visited this proposal (around the Chicago meeting last year) not to  
introduce restrictions or changes into the protocol that apply only to  
certain use cases and policies implementable with the greater protocol.

> Note that there is a simple solution to address those two drawbacks:  
> never send a template withdrawal message, and make those template  
> IDs permanent as long as the SCTP association is up. Nothing is  
> changed on the collector side specifications, as it doesn't have to  
> know that the template IDs are permanent
>
> Now, the real question in this solution 1 is: what to do if we can't  
> increase anymore the number of streams in the SCTP association?
> We export all the newly created template IDs and the associated data  
> records on the stream 0 (as currently specified in the per-SCTP  
> stream)
> Overloading the stream 0 is not an issue as the SCTP design is such  
> that there is one pool of buffer and all streams will share it, i.e.  
> "if you send  100k in one stream.. or 100k spread over all streams..  
> it makes no difference" dixit Randy Stewart.
> Note: stream 0 is mentioned for historical but could very well be  
> another one. I'm not even sure we even need to specify a certain  
> stream
> Note that on that stream 0, we can't deduce the loss per template.

Hmm. per-stream should also provide guidelines that it works best in  
cases where you have enough streams to handle all your templates.

Cheers,

Brian
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Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Per-SCTP stream draft: New Template ID SHOULD/MUST be
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Benoit, Gerhard, and all,

Replies inline; the most important one appears at the end, after  
Solution 1. Summary: we shouldn't change the protocol to redefine  
template scopes; it doesn't just break specific things but creates a  
new protocol; and, we should address dependent information sequencing  
at some point.

On Feb 19, 2008, at 12:10 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:

> Gerhard,
>
> You had a series of very good comments, which proves that we're  
> thinking along the same lines.
> For the everybody's sake, let me take a step back and explain the  
> problems we try to solve by sending template per-SCTP stream.
> This should answer some questions below, such as "What do you mean  
> by reducing the risk of losing Data Records?"
>
> Problem 1:
> - when a template ID is used by multiple streams, and a template  
> withdrawal message is sent on one of the those streams, then the  
> other streams must allow enough time for the template withdrawal  
> message to reach the collector before they can reuse the template  
> ID, which is something they cannot know.
> More importantly, the template withdrawal message cannot be sent on  
> the first stream until it knows that all the other streams have  
> transmitted their corresponding data records - which is also  
> impossible to know.
>
> It's true that RFC5101 specifies:
>    The Template Withdrawal Message MUST NOT be sent until sufficient
>    time has elapsed to allow the Collecting Process to receive and
>    process the last Data Record using this Template information.  This
>    time MUST be configurable.  A suitable default value is 5 seconds
>    after the last Data Record has been sent.
> But it's not always possible to guarantee that 5 seconds is enough.  
> So we might lose data records.

Indeed. Template withdrawals (like UDP) are dangerous, and in an ideal  
situation should not be used at all. They won't work reliably in the  
general-case, flexible multistream environment. But sometimes you'll  
get yourself into a situation where you need to withdraw templates,  
for whatever reason. So we give guidelines, as above, to minimize the  
damage should an exporter choose to use this feature.

(Aside: if data record loss avoidance is a prime requirement, use TCP  
or single-stream reliable SCTP.)

(Aside, aside: Can someone provide 1. the count of templates you're  
expecting to use within a single transport session and 2. example  
expected use cases for template withdrawals? In theory all this is  
broken, I agree, but I still can't really see situations where all  
these various template withdrawal problems will arise in the Real  
World (tm).)

> More generic problem:
> Problems 1 and 2 are different problems, but with the same cause:  
> the problems come from data records from the same template ID sent  
> across different streams. Typically, the PSAMP option template  
> record for sampling.

More generically still, the problems come from dependencies between  
IPFIX messages sent without sequencing guarantees. See comment on  
Solution 3 below.

> This is a current limitation/problem with IPFIX
> We evaluated whether we can propose some improvements part of this  
> per-SCTP draft, even if the per-SCTP draft goal was to export one  
> template per stream to be able to deduce the data loss for each  
> template record.
>
> There are a couple of solutions, with the solution 1 being the  
> preferred one. Hence the reverse order.
>
> Solution 3:
> As explained by Gehrard, look at the export time in the template  
> records, data records, and template withdrawal message.
> - This implies a more complex collecting process implementation as  
> the old and new template records must kept to compare the time
>   Note: potentially more than two template records must be kept if  
> the definition of the template ID changes frequently
> - This implies that we loose the real-time decode, as the collecting  
> process must wait for a certain time, just in case a delayed  
> template withdrawal message and a new template record is received.  
> For this reason only, I think this solution is poor
> - What if data record and template withdraw message were in the same  
> IPFIX message? Probably it'd depend on the order within the message.

The CP should be looking at export time when evaluating information  
dependencies (scoped options, templates), anyway. This is completely  
ignored by the protocol (though in retrospect perhaps it should have  
been), but there are really only two temporal scoping policies that  
make sense:

1. If dependencies cannot be withdrawn, then it can be held to be  
valid for the entirety of its enclosing outer scope (the transport  
session). In this case, ordering within the session is completely  
unimportant. This is pretty much, by default, how 5101 treats things,  
and I think how we think about these things on the list.

2. If dependencies may we withdrawn _AND REDEFINED_ (which is the  
point of template withdrawals, after all), then the ordering of these  
operations is critically important. Since ordering is important  
_across_ streams, we can't use the sequence number. The only sync  
signal we have that works across all streams is the export time.

Actually building out a consistent set of rules for handling dependent  
information could, I think, be done without changing the wire protocol  
or the EP at all; it could basically be a set of CP guidelines. Though  
I haven't thought all the way through the problem to be able to say  
that with much confidence, yet. IIRC Andrew and I discussed something  
along these lines in the form of a "scope user's guide" way back in  
San Diego, but haven't had a chance to do anything with it since then.

> Solution 2
> We could propose a series of specifications that would reduce the  
> likelihood that problem 1 or 2 would happen
>     - transmission order is maintained within a stream
>     - redefinition of the Template ID is not encouraged
>     - template withdrawal message SHOULD be sent in the last used  
> stream that carried the template ID to be removed
>     - etc..
> The drawback of this solution is that, even if the likelihood is  
> reduced, there is no guarantee that the problem 1 and 2 will not  
> happen.
> When I posted the initial email from this thread, I was still  
> thinking along this solution 2

Something along the lines of this solution is, I think, as good as we  
can do, in view of the issues with solution 1; see below.

An EP using the per-stream technique will not lose data records due to  
template withdrawals or template synchronization issues. This is an  
advantage of using per-stream. But per-stream is an option; a  
technique applicable to certain use cases that has specific advantages  
in those cases. It uses each template only on a single stream, and  
each stream has only a single template, but that is simply the EP's  
prerogative, not a property of the protocol.

An EP not using template withdrawals at all will not lose data records  
due to template withdrawals, trivially.

An EP choosing to use template withdrawals and cross-stream template  
definitions may generate a message stream it is difficult but not  
impossible for the CP to process without record loss. 5101 provides  
guidelines and warnings to this effect already.

(Again, data loss avoidance is _one_ requirement -- one policy -- that  
the mechanisms of the IPFIX protocol can be used to implement. It is  
not always of the utmost importance; otherwise we wouldn't support UDP  
and PR-SCTP.)

> Solution 1
> The template IDs are scoped per stream, next to the the Transport  
> Session and Observation Domain that generated the Template ID.
> Next to that, the transmission order per stream is maintained
> In this case, problem 1 and problem 2 will never happen
> The drawbacks are that
>     - more template ID and records would be used. For example, the  
> sampling option template record would require
>       one template ID per stream and the export the "same" data  
> record values per stream
>     - "reducing redundancy" draft would not work across stream. Is  
> this a big issue, I don't know!

Indeed, this would cause options template records used for other than  
MP/EP metadata export (as in RFC5103, ipfix-exporting-type, ipfix- 
reducing-redundancy) not to work across streams.

I agree with Gerhard (in his reply to this message): we shouldn't  
change the protocol. And this proposal does define a new protocol. RFC  
5103 EPs would be incapable of interoperating with CPs that failed to  
interpret cross-stream templates. 5103 CPs would be incapable of  
interoperating with EPs that caused template collision.

I would also repeat strenuously my warnings from the last time we  
visited this proposal (around the Chicago meeting last year) not to  
introduce restrictions or changes into the protocol that apply only to  
certain use cases and policies implementable with the greater protocol.

> Note that there is a simple solution to address those two drawbacks:  
> never send a template withdrawal message, and make those template  
> IDs permanent as long as the SCTP association is up. Nothing is  
> changed on the collector side specifications, as it doesn't have to  
> know that the template IDs are permanent
>
> Now, the real question in this solution 1 is: what to do if we can't  
> increase anymore the number of streams in the SCTP association?
> We export all the newly created template IDs and the associated data  
> records on the stream 0 (as currently specified in the per-SCTP  
> stream)
> Overloading the stream 0 is not an issue as the SCTP design is such  
> that there is one pool of buffer and all streams will share it, i.e.  
> "if you send  100k in one stream.. or 100k spread over all streams..  
> it makes no difference" dixit Randy Stewart.
> Note: stream 0 is mentioned for historical but could very well be  
> another one. I'm not even sure we even need to specify a certain  
> stream
> Note that on that stream 0, we can't deduce the loss per template.

Hmm. per-stream should also provide guidelines that it works best in  
cases where you have enough streams to handle all your templates.

Cheers,

Brian
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Brian,

> The CP should be looking at export time when evaluating information 
> dependencies (scoped options, templates), anyway. This is completely 
> ignored by the protocol

If you do that, then you'd have to store all the received data records
undecoded for a certain amount of time - even if you have a valid
template to decode them - against the slight possibility of a TWM and
new template definition with an earlier timestamp being received from
another stream.

Which means you lose the ability to decode data in real time.


> IIRC Andrew and I discussed something along these lines in the form 
> of a "scope user's guide" way back in San Diego

If templates contained a valid-from and a valid-to timestamp, with a
guarantee they'd not be withdrawn or redefined within that window, then
you could decode in real time once again.

-- 
Paul Aitken
Cisco Systems Ltd, Edinburgh, Scotland.
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Brian,

> The CP should be looking at export time when evaluating information 
> dependencies (scoped options, templates), anyway. This is completely 
> ignored by the protocol

If you do that, then you'd have to store all the received data records
undecoded for a certain amount of time - even if you have a valid
template to decode them - against the slight possibility of a TWM and
new template definition with an earlier timestamp being received from
another stream.

Which means you lose the ability to decode data in real time.


> IIRC Andrew and I discussed something along these lines in the form 
> of a "scope user's guide" way back in San Diego

If templates contained a valid-from and a valid-to timestamp, with a
guarantee they'd not be withdrawn or redefined within that window, then
you could decode in real time once again.

-- 
Paul Aitken
Cisco Systems Ltd, Edinburgh, Scotland.
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Flow Information Export Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Definitions of Managed Objects for IP Flow Information Export
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Thanks Brian,

Let me quickly update the draft based on Gerhard's and your feedback.

Regards, Benoit.
> Benoit, Gerhard, and all,
>
> Replies inline; the most important one appears at the end, after 
> Solution 1. Summary: we shouldn't change the protocol to redefine 
> template scopes; it doesn't just break specific things but creates a 
> new protocol; and, we should address dependent information sequencing 
> at some point.
>
> On Feb 19, 2008, at 12:10 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:
>
>> Gerhard,
>>
>> You had a series of very good comments, which proves that we're 
>> thinking along the same lines.
>> For the everybody's sake, let me take a step back and explain the 
>> problems we try to solve by sending template per-SCTP stream.
>> This should answer some questions below, such as "What do you mean by 
>> reducing the risk of losing Data Records?"
>>
>> Problem 1:
>> - when a From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Feb 22 05:16:51 2008
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Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:16:39 +0100
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [IPFIX] Per-SCTP stream draft: New Template ID SHOULD/MUST be
 used?
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Thanks Brian,

Let me quickly update the draft based on Gerhard's and your feedback.

Regards, Benoit.
> Benoit, Gerhard, and all,
>
> Replies inline; the most important one appears at the end, after 
> Solution 1. Summary: we shouldn't change the protocol to redefine 
> template scopes; it doesn't just break specific things but creates a 
> new protocol; and, we should address dependent information sequencing 
> at some point.
>
> On Feb 19, 2008, at 12:10 PM, Benoit Claise wrote:
>
>> Gerhard,
>>
>> You had a series of very good comments, which proves that we're 
>> thinking along the same lines.
>> For the everybody's sake, let me take a step back and explain the 
>> problems we try to solve by sending template per-SCTP stream.
>> This should answer some questions below, such as "What do you mean by 
>> reducing the risk of losing Data Records?"
>>
>> Problem 1:
>> - when a template ID is used by multiple streams, and a template 
>> withdrawal message is sent on one of the those streams, then the 
>> other streams must allow enough time for the template withdrawal 
>> message to reach the collector before they can reuse the template ID, 
>> which is something they cannot know.
>> More importantly, the template withdrawal message cannot be sent on 
>> the first stream until it knows that all the other streams have 
>> transmitted their corresponding data records - which is also 
>> impossible to know.
>>
>> It's true that RFC5101 specifies:
>>    The Template Withdrawal Message MUST NOT be sent until sufficient
>>    time has elapsed to allow the Collecting Process to receive and
>>    process the last Data Record using this Template information.  This
>>    time MUST be configurable.  A suitable default value is 5 seconds
>>    after the last Data Record has been sent.
>> But it's not always possible to guarantee that 5 seconds is enough. 
>> So we might lose data records.
>
> Indeed. Template withdrawals (like UDP) are dangerous, and in an ideal 
> situation should not be used at all. They won't work reliably in the 
> general-case, flexible multistream environment. But sometimes you'll 
> get yourself into a situation where you need to withdraw templates, 
> for whatever reason. So we give guidelines, as above, to minimize the 
> damage should an exporter choose to use this feature.
>
> (Aside: if data record loss avoidance is a prime requirement, use TCP 
> or single-stream reliable SCTP.)
>
> (Aside, aside: Can someone provide 1. the count of templates you're 
> expecting to use within a single transport session and 2. example 
> expected use cases for template withdrawals? In theory all this is 
> broken, I agree, but I still can't really see situations where all 
> these various template withdrawal problems will arise in the Real 
> World (tm).)
>
>> More generic problem:
>> Problems 1 and 2 are different problems, but with the same cause: the 
>> problems come from data records from the same template ID sent across 
>> different streams. Typically, the PSAMP option template record for 
>> sampling.
>
> More generically still, the problems come from dependencies between 
> IPFIX messages sent without sequencing guarantees. See comment on 
> Solution 3 below.
>
>> This is a current limitation/problem with IPFIX
>> We evaluated whether we can propose some improvements part of this 
>> per-SCTP draft, even if the per-SCTP draft goal was to export one 
>> template per stream to be able to deduce the data loss for each 
>> template record.
>>
>> There are a couple of solutions, with the solution 1 being the 
>> preferred one. Hence the reverse order.
>>
>> Solution 3:
>> As explained by Gehrard, look at the export time in the template 
>> records, data records, and template withdrawal message.
>> - This implies a more complex collecting process implementation as 
>> the old and new template records must kept to compare the time
>>   Note: potentially more than two template records must be kept if 
>> the definition of the template ID changes frequently
>> - This implies that we loose the real-time decode, as the collecting 
>> process must wait for a certain time, just in case a delayed template 
>> withdrawal message and a new template record is received. For this 
>> reason only, I think this solution is poor
>> - What if data record and template withdraw message were in the same 
>> IPFIX message? Probably it'd depend on the order within the message.
>
> The CP should be looking at export time when evaluating information 
> dependencies (scoped options, templates), anyway. This is completely 
> ignored by the protocol (though in retrospect perhaps it should have 
> been), but there are really only two temporal scoping policies that 
> make sense:
>
> 1. If dependencies cannot be withdrawn, then it can be held to be 
> valid for the entirety of its enclosing outer scope (the transport 
> session). In this case, ordering within the session is completely 
> unimportant. This is pretty muchtemplate ID is used by multiple streams, and a template 
>> withdrawal message is sent on one of the those streams, then the 
>> other streams must allow enough time for the template withdrawal 
>> message to reach the collector before they can reuse the template ID, 
>> which is something they cannot know.
>> More importantly, the template withdrawal message cannot be sent on 
>> the first stream until it knows that all the other streams have 
>> transmitted their corresponding data records - which is also 
>> impossible to know.
>>
>> It's true that RFC5101 specifies:
>>    The Template Withdrawal Message MUST NOT be sent until sufficient
>>    time has elapsed to allow the Collecting Process to receive and
>>    process the last Data Record using this Template information.  This
>>    time MUST be configurable.  A suitable default value is 5 seconds
>>    after the last Data Record has been sent.
>> But it's not always possible to guarantee that 5 seconds is enough. 
>> So we might lose data records.
>
> Indeed. Template withdrawals (like UDP) are dangerous, and in an ideal 
> situation should not be used at all. They won't work reliably in the 
> general-case, flexible multistream environment. But sometimes you'll 
> get yourself into a situation where you need to withdraw templates, 
> for whatever reason. So we give guidelines, as above, to minimize the 
> damage should an exporter choose to use this feature.
>
> (Aside: if data record loss avoidance is a prime requirement, use TCP 
> or single-stream reliable SCTP.)
>
> (Aside, aside: Can someone provide 1. the count of templates you're 
> expecting to use within a single transport session and 2. example 
> expected use cases for template withdrawals? In theory all this is 
> broken, I agree, but I still can't really see situations where all 
> these various template withdrawal problems will arise in the Real 
> World (tm).)
>
>> More generic problem:
>> Problems 1 and 2 are different problems, but with the same cause: the 
>> problems come from data records from the same template ID sent across 
>> different streams. Typically, the PSAMP option template record for 
>> sampling.
>
> More generically still, the problems come from dependencies between 
> IPFIX messages sent without sequencing guarantees. See comment on 
> Solution 3 below.
>
>> This is a current limitation/problem with IPFIX
>> We evaluated whether we can propose some improvements part of this 
>> per-SCTP draft, even if the per-SCTP draft goal was to export one 
>> template per stream to be able to deduce the data loss for each 
>> template record.
>>
>> There are a couple of solutions, with the solution 1 being the 
>> preferred one. Hence the reverse order.
>>
>> Solution 3:
>> As explained by Gehrard, look at the export time in the template 
>> records, data records, and template withdrawal message.
>> - This implies a more complex collecting process implementation as 
>> the old and new template records must kept to compare the time
>>   Note: potentially more than two template records must be kept if 
>> the definition of the template ID changes frequently
>> - This implies that we loose the real-time decode, as the collecting 
>> process must wait for a certain time, just in case a delayed template 
>> withdrawal message and a new template record is received. For this 
>> reason only, I think this solution is poor
>> - What if data record and template withdraw message were in the same 
>> IPFIX message? Probably it'd depend on the order within the message.
>
> The CP should be looking at export time when evaluating information 
> dependencies (scoped options, templates), anyway. This is completely 
> ignored by the protocol (though in retrospect perhaps it should have 
> been), but there are really only two temporal scoping policies that 
> make sense:
>
> 1. If dependencies cannot be withdrawn, then it can be held to be 
> valid for the entirety of its enclosing outer scope (the transport 
> session). In this case, ordering within the session is completely 
> unimportant. This is pretty much, by default, how 5101 treats things, 
> and I think how we think about these things on the list.
>
> 2. If dependencies may we withdrawn _AND REDEFINED_ (which is the 
> point of template withdrawals, after all), then the ordering of these 
> operations is critically important. Since ordering is important 
> _across_ streams, we can't use the sequence number. The only sync 
> signal we have that works across all streams is the export time.
>
> Actually building out a consistent set of rules for handling dependent 
> information could, I think, be done without changing the wire protocol 
> or the EP at all; it could basically be a set of CP guidelines. Though 
> I haven't thought all the way through the problem to be able to say 
> that with much confidence, yet. IIRC Andrew and I discussed something 
> along these lines in the form of a "scope user's guide" way back in 
> San Diego, but haven't had a chance to do anything with it since then.
>
>> Solution 2
>> We could propose a series of specifications that would reduce the 
>> likelihood that problem 1 or 2 would happen
>>     - transmission order is maintained within a stream
>>     - redefinition of the Template ID is not encouraged
>>     - template withdrawal message SHOULD be sent in the last used 
>> stream that carried the template ID to be removed
>>     - etc..
>> The drawback of this solution is that, even if the likelihood is 
>> reduced, there is no guarantee that the problem 1 and 2 will not happen.
>> When I posted the initial email from this thread, I was still 
>> thinking along this solution 2
>
> Something along the lines of this solution is, I think, as good as we 
> can do, in view of the issues with solution 1; see below.
>
> An EP using the per-stream technique will not lose data records due to 
> template withdrawals or template synchronization issues. This is an 
> advantage of using per-stream. But per-stream is an option; a 
> technique applicable to certain use cases that has specific advantages 
> in those cases. It uses each template only on a single stream, and 
> each stream has only a single template, but that is simply the EP's 
> prerogative, not a property of the protocol.
>
> An EP not using template withdrawals at all will not lose data records 
> due to template withdrawals, trivially.
>
> An EP choosing to use template withdrawals and cross-stream template 
> definitions may generate a message stream it is difficult but not 
> impossible for the CP to process without record loss. 5101 provides 
> guidelines and warnings to this effect already.
>
> (Again, data loss avoidance is _one_ requirement -- one policy -- that 
> the mechanisms of the IPFIX protocol can be used to implement. It is 
> not always of the utmost importance; otherwise we wouldn't support UDP 
> and PR-SCTP.)
>
>> Solution 1
>> The template IDs are scoped per stream, next to the the Transport 
>> Session and Observation Domain that generated the Template ID.
>> Next to that, the transmission order per stream is maintained
>> In this case, problem 1 and problem 2 will never happen
>> The drawbacks are that
>>     - more template ID and records would be used. For example, the 
>> sampling option template record would require
>>       one template ID per stream and the export the "same" data 
>> record values per stream
>>     - "reducing redundancy" draft would not work across stream. Is 
>> this a big issue, I don't know!
>
> Indeed, this would cause options template records used for other than 
> MP/EP metadata export (as in RFC5103, ipfix-exporting-type, 
> ipfix-reducing-redundancy) not to work across streams.
>
> I agree with Gerhard (in his reply to this message): we shouldn't 
> change the protocol. And this proposal does define a new protocol. RFC 
> 5103 EPs would be incapable of interoperating with CPs that failed to 
> interpret cross-stream templates. 5103 CPs would be incapable of 
> interoperating with EPs that caused template collision.
>
> I would also repeat strenuously my warnings from the last time we 
> visited this proposal (around the Chicago, by default, how 5101 treats things, 
> and I think how we think about these things on the list.
>
> 2. If dependencies may we withdrawn _AND REDEFINED_ (which is the 
> point of template withdrawals, after all), then the ordering of these 
> operations is critically important. Since ordering is important 
> _across_ streams, we can't use the sequence number. The only sync 
> signal we have that works across all streams is the export time.
>
> Actually building out a consistent set of rules for handling dependent 
> information could, I think, be done without changing the wire protocol 
> or the EP at all; it could basically be a set of CP guidelines. Though 
> I haven't thought all the way through the problem to be able to say 
> that with much confidence, yet. IIRC Andrew and I discussed something 
> along these lines in the form of a "scope user's guide" way back in 
> San Diego, but haven't had a chance to do anything with it since then.
>
>> Solution 2
>> We could propose a series of specifications that would reduce the 
>> likelihood that problem 1 or 2 would happen
>>     - transmission order is maintained within a stream
>>     - redefinition of the Template ID is not encouraged
>>     - template withdrawal message SHOULD be sent in the last used 
>> stream that carried the template ID to be removed
>>     - etc..
>> The drawback of this solution is that, even if the likelihood is 
>> reduced, there is no guarantee that the problem 1 and 2 will not happen.
>> When I posted the initial email from this thread, I was still 
>> thinking along this solution 2
>
> Something along the lines of this solution is, I think, as good as we 
> can do, in view of the issues with solution 1; see below.
>
> An EP using the per-stream technique will not lose data records due to 
> template withdrawals or template synchronization issues. This is an 
> advantage of using per-stream. But per-stream is an option; a 
> technique applicable to certain use cases that has specific advantages 
> in those cases. It uses each template only on a single stream, and 
> each stream has only a single template, but that is simply the EP's 
> prerogative, not a property of the protocol.
>
> An EP not using template withdrawals at all will not lose data records 
> due to template withdrawals, trivially.
>
> An EP choosing to use template withdrawals and cross-stream template 
> definitions may generate a message stream it is difficult but not 
> impossible for the CP to process without record loss. 5101 provides 
> guidelines and warnings to this effect already.
>
> (Again, data loss avoidance is _one_ requirement -- one policy -- that 
> the mechanisms of the IPFIX protocol can be used to implement. It is 
> not always of the utmost importance; otherwise we wouldn't support UDP 
> and PR-SCTP.)
>
>> Solution 1
>> The template IDs are scoped per stream, next to the the Transport 
>> Session and Observation Domain that generated the Template ID.
>> Next to that, the transmission order per stream is maintained
>> In this case, problem 1 and problem 2 will never happen
>> The drawbacks are that
>>     - more template ID and records would be used. For example, the 
>> sampling option template record would require
>>       one template ID per stream and the export the "same" data 
>> record values per stream
>>     - "reducing redundancy" draft would not work across stream. Is 
>> this a big issue, I don't know!
>
> Indeed, this would cause options template records used for other than 
> MP/EP metadata export (as in RFC5103, ipfix-exporting-type, 
> ipfix-reducing-redundancy) not to work across streams.
>
> I agree with Gerhard (in his reply to this message): we shouldn't 
> change the protocol. And this proposal does define a new protocol. RFC 
> 5103 EPs would be incapable of interoperating with CPs that failed to 
> interpret cross-stream templates. 5103 CPs would be incapable of 
> interoperating with EPs that caused template collision.
>
> I would also repeat strenuously my warnings from the last time we 
> visited this proposal (around the Chicago meeting last year) not to 
> introduce restrictions or changes into the protocol that apply only to 
> certain use cases and policies implementable with the greater protocol.
>
>> Note that there is a simple solution to address those two drawbacks: 
>> never send a template withdrawal message, and make those template IDs 
>> permanent as long as the SCTP association is up. Nothing is changed 
>> on the collector side specifications, as it doesn't have to know that 
>> the template IDs are permanent
>>
>> Now, the real question in this solution 1 is: what to do if we can't 
>> increase anymore the number of streams in the SCTP association?
>> We export all the newly created template IDs and the associated data 
>> records on the stream 0 (as currently specified in the per-SCTP stream)
>> Overloading the stream 0 is not an issue as the SCTP design is such 
>> that there is one pool of buffer and all streams will share it, i.e. 
>> "if you send  100k in one stream.. or 100k spread over all streams.. 
>> it makes no difference" dixit Randy Stewart.
>> Note: stream 0 is mentioned for historical but could very well be 
>> another one. I'm not even sure we even need to specify a certain stream
>> Note that on that stream 0, we can't deduce the loss per template.
>
> Hmm. per-stream should also provide guidelines that it works best in 
> cases where you have enough streams to handle all your templates.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Brian

_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFIX@ietf.org
http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix


 meeting last year) not to 
> introduce restrictions or changes into the protocol that apply only to 
> certain use cases and policies implementable with the greater protocol.
>
>> Note that there is a simple solution to address those two drawbacks: 
>> never send a template withdrawal message, and make those template IDs 
>> permanent as long as the SCTP association is up. Nothing is changed 
>> on the collector side specifications, as it doesn't have to know that 
>> the template IDs are permanent
>>
>> Now, the real question in this solution 1 is: what to do if we can't 
>> increase anymore the number of streams in the SCTP association?
>> We export all the newly created template IDs and the associated data 
>> records on the stream 0 (as currently specified in the per-SCTP stream)
>> Overloading the stream 0 is not an issue as the SCTP design is such 
>> that there is one pool of buffer and all streams will share it, i.e. 
>> "if you send  100k in one stream.. or 100k spread over all streams.. 
>> it makes no difference" dixit Randy Stewart.
>> Note: stream 0 is mentioned for historical but could very well be 
>> another one. I'm not even sure we even need to specify a certain stream
>> Note that on that stream 0, we can't deduce the loss per template.
>
> Hmm. per-stream should also provide guidelines that it works best in 
> cases where you have enough streams to handle all your templates.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Brian

_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFIX@ietf.org
http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix


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Dear all,

Benoit raised an issue with the IPFIX MIB in his mail to the list
(http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ipfix/current/msg04216.html). This
issues comes out of the real world implementation of the IPFIX protocol. The
problem is that timeout values that time out flows are located at the
template in the MIB. Now in the real world these timeouts are located at
caches. To maFrom ipfix-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Feb 25 00:55:59 2008
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Thread-Topic: Issue on IPFIX MIB
Thread-Index: Ach3jB6ZzNVlXAw+Sve4UdbQE8Amzg==
From: "Thomas Dietz" <Thomas.Dietz@nw.neclab.eu>
To: "IETF IPFIX Working Group" <ipfix@ietf.org>
Cc: Juergen Quittek <Quittek@nw.neclab.eu>
Subject: [IPFIX] Issue on IPFIX MIB
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Dear all,

Benoit raised an issue with the IPFIX MIB in his mail to the list
(http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ipfix/current/msg04216.html). This
issues comes out of the real world implementation of the IPFIX protocol. The
problem is that timeout values that time out flows are located at the
template in the MIB. Now in the real world these timeouts are located at
caches. To make things worse caches cannot be 1:1 mapped to templates.
Several caches can export their data with the same template.

As a consequence we need to change the MIB. Since we don't have the term
cache in our drafts one possibility would be to just eliminate the timeouts
and make their use implementation dependant and not visible in the MIB.

The second possibility would be to map the caches (and especially their
timeouts) to the Metering Process. So we would get another table with e.g. a
Metering Process ID and the timeouts. As a consequence we need to re-link
all the tables (change their indexes) in the MIB to integrate the new
Metering Process table.

I will try to come up with such a new MIB structure asap, send it to the
list and gather your comments.

Hope to find a solution soon,

Best Regards,

Thomas

-- 
Thomas Dietz                 E-mail: Thomas.Dietz@nw.neclab.eu
NEC Europe Ltd.              Phone:  +49 6221 4342-128
NEC Laboratories Europe      Fax:    +49 6221 4342-155
Network Research Division
Kurfuersten-Anlage 36
69115 Heidelberg, Germany    http://www.nw.neclab.eu

NEC Europe Limited           Registered in England 2832014
Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL


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As a consequence we need to change the MIB. Since we don't have the term
cache in our drafts one possibility would be to just eliminate the timeouts
and make their use implementation dependant and not visible in the MIB.

The second possibility would be to map the caches (and especially their
timeouts) to the Metering Process. So we would get another table with e.g. a
Metering Process ID and the timeouts. As a consequence we need to re-link
all the tables (change their indexes) in the MIB to integrate the new
Metering Process table.

I will try to come up with such a new MIB structure asap, send it to the
list and gather your comments.

Hope to find a solution soon,

Best Regards,

Thomas

-- 
Thomas Dietz                 E-mail: Thomas.Dietz@nw.neclab.eu
NEC Europe Ltd.              Phone:  +49 6221 4342-128
NEC Laboratories Europe      Fax:    +49 6221 4342-155
Network Research Division
Kurfuersten-Anlage 36
69115 Heidelberg, Germany    http://www.nw.neclab.eu

NEC Europe Limited           Registered in England 2832014
Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL


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_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
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	Title           : Exporting Type Information for IPFIX Information Elements
	Author(s)       : E. Boschi, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ipfix-exporting-type-01.txt
	Pages           : 19
	Date            : 2008-02-25

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	Title           : Exporting Type Information for IPFIX Information Elements
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	Filename        : draft-ietf-ipfix-exporting-type-01.txt
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Subject: Re: [IPFIX] [Sender:  ipfix-bounces@ietf.org]   Issue on IPFIX MIB
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Thomas,

> Benoit raised an issue with the IPFIX MIB in his mail to the list 
> (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ipfix/current/msg04216.html). 
> This issues comes out of the real world implementation of the IPFIX 
> protocol. The problem is that timeout values that time out flows are 
> located at the template in the MIB. Now in the real world these 
> timeouts are located at caches.

That makes a lot of sense, since these timeouts pertain to flows, and
caches are collections of flows. Whereas templates are produced by the
exporting process (IPFIX-ARCH, figure 6) and are therefore a step too
far along in the IPFIX process. In short, templates can't control the
timing of data export!


> To make things worse caches cannot be 1:1 mapped to templates. 
> Several caches can export their data with the same template.

The contents of a single cache could be exported using multiple
templates. eg, templates could be created based on which fields were
available. ie, if a value was not observed for a particular field then a
new template would be created which doesn't include that field.


> As a consequence we need to change the MIB. Since we don't have the 
> term cache in our drafts one possibility would be to just eliminate 
> the timeouts and make their use implementation dependant and not 
> visible in the MIB.

Looking at IPFIX-ARCH figure 4, surely these timers control the transfer
of data from the metering process to the exporting process? So in a
sense they're a missing piece of the IPFIX picture, and eliminating them
doesn't make sense.


> The second possibility would be to map the caches (and especially 
> their timeouts) to the Metering Process. So we would get another 
> table with e.g. a Metering Process ID and the timeouts.

You should allow the possibility of multiple caches per metering
process, each with their own properties. eg, hardware and software
caches that are configured independently.

The difference between one metering process with N caches, and N
metering processes each with their own cache, is that in the former case
a packet is processed only once and appears in just one of the caches,
whereas in the latter case the packet may be processed N times and
appear once in each cache.

Further, changing the parameters of a metering process affects the N
caches which it populates, whereas each metering process is independent,
so changing the configuration of one doesn't normally change the
configuration of any other. The only exception is when a global timeout
is enforced across all caches.

Cheers,
P.


> As a consequence we need to re-link all the tables (change their 
> indexes) in the MIB to integrate the new Metering Process table.
> 
> I will try to come up with such a new MIB structure asap, send it to 
> the list and gather your comments.
> 
> Hope to find a solution soon,
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Thomas

-- 
Paul Aitken
Cisco Systems Ltd, Edinburgh, Scotland.
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	Juergen Quittek <Quittek@nw.neclab.eu>
Subject: Re: [IPFIX] [Sender:  ipfix-bounces@ietf.org]   Issue on IPFIX MIB
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Thomas,

> Benoit raised an issue with the IPFIX MIB in his mail to the list 
> (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ipfix/current/msg04216.html). 
> This issues comes out of the real world implementation of the IPFIX 
> protocol. The problem is that timeout values that time out flows are 
> located at the template in the MIB. Now in the real world these 
> timeouts are located at caches.

That makes a lot of sense, since these timeouts pertain to flows, and
caches are collections of flows. Whereas templates are produced by the
exporting process (IPFIX-ARCH, figure 6) and are therefore a step too
far along in the IPFIX process. In short, templates can't control the
timing of data export!


> To make things worse caches cannot be 1:1 mapped to templates. 
> Several caches can export their data with the same template.

The contents of a single cache could be exported using multiple
templates. eg, templates could be created based on which fields were
available. ie, if a value was not observed for a particular field then a
new template would be created which doesn't include that field.


> As a consequence we need to change the MIB. Since we don't have the 
> term cache in our drafts one possibility would be to just eliminate 
> the timeouts and make their use implementation dependant and not 
> visible in the MIB.

Looking at IPFIX-ARCH figure 4, surely these timers control the transfer
of data from the metering process to the exporting process? So in a
sense they're a missing piece of the IPFIX picture, and eliminating them
doesn't make sense.


> The second possibility would be to map the caches (and especially 
> their timeouts) to the Metering Process. So we would get another 
> table with e.g. a Metering Process ID and the timeouts.

You should allow the possibility of multiple caches per metering
process, each with their own properties. eg, hardware and software
caches that are configured independently.

The difference between one metering process with N caches, and N
metering processes each with their own cache, is that in the former case
a packet is processed only once and appears in just one of the caches,
whereas in the latter case the packet may be processed N times and
appear once in each cache.

Further, changing the parameters of a metering process affects the N
caches which it populates, whereas each metering process is independent,
so changing the configuration of one doesn't normally change the
configuration of any other. The only exception is when a global timeout
is enforced across all caches.

Cheers,
P.


> As a consequence we need to re-link all the tables (change their 
> indexes) in the MIB to integrate the new Metering Process table.
> 
> I will try to come up with such a new MIB structure asap, send it to 
> the list and gather your comments.
> 
> Hope to find a solution soon,
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Thomas

-- 
Paul Aitken
Cisco Systems Ltd, Edinburgh, Scotland.
_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFIX@ietf.org
http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix


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Dear all,

A new revision of the IPFIX/PSAMP configuration data model has been
published:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-muenz-ipfix-configuration-04.tx=
t

Apart from smaller changes in the model itself, the big change compared
to the previous version concerns the specification language: instead of
XML Schema, we now use YANG, a new language for modelling Netconf data
models. As a consequence, conformance to Netconf can be guaranteed.

We received a lot of valuable feedback and support from Martin Bjorklund
who is a Netconf expert and author of the YANG draft. We will try to get
some additional feedback from other Netconf experts as well.

Regards,
Gerhard

--=20
Dipl.-Ing. Gerhard M=FCnz
Computer Networks and Internet
Wilhelm Schickard Institute for Computer Science
University of TuebiFrom ipfix-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Feb 25 08:51:56 2008
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Dear all,

A new revision of the IPFIX/PSAMP configuration data model has been
published:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-muenz-ipfix-configuration-04.tx=
t

Apart from smaller changes in the model itself, the big change compared
to the previous version concerns the specification language: instead of
XML Schema, we now use YANG, a new language for modelling Netconf data
models. As a consequence, conformance to Netconf can be guaranteed.

We received a lot of valuable feedback and support from Martin Bjorklund
who is a Netconf expert and author of the YANG draft. We will try to get
some additional feedback from other Netconf experts as well.

Regards,
Gerhard

--=20
Dipl.-Ing. Gerhard M=FCnz
Computer Networks and Internet
Wilhelm Schickard Institute for Computer Science
University of Tuebingen
Sand 13 (Room B309), D-72076 Tuebingen, Germany
Phone:  +49 7071 29-70534       Fax: +49 7071 29-5220
E-mail: muenz@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
WWW:    http://net.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/~muenz


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From salle9kell63@fujitsu.com  Mon Feb 25 22:51:20 2008
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From: "grenville coulson" <salle9kell63@fujitsu.com>
To: "Mervin Erwin" <ipfix-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Subject: exclusive watches, affordable prices rolex
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 05:08:14 +0000
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Discover Our Range of Luxury Rolex Watches for Men and Women... Incredibly Low Prices!

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From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Feb 26 01:54:37 2008
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Subject: [IPFIX]  New version problems with IPFIX Mediation
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Dear all,

I submitted new version of problems with IPFIX Mediation draft.
For some reasons, it has not been announced on I-D announce mailing list,
but you can see the following web site.
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kobayashi-ipfix-large-ps-01

This version focuses more description on the problems with using IPFIX
Mediator. We wrote up it according to feedback from last meeting
discussion and several comments.

Could you please read through it before next meeting. Your
comments welcome.

Regards,
Atsushi KOBAYASHI

--- 
Atsushi KOBAYASHI  <akoba@nttv6.net>
NTT Information Sharing Platform Lab.
tel:+81-(0)422-59-3978 fax:+81-(0)422-59-5637


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From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Feb 26 01:54:37 2008
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Subject: [IPFIX]  New version problems with IPFIX Mediation
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Dear all,

I submitted new version of problems with IPFIX Mediation draft.
For some reasons, it has not been announced on I-D announce mailing list,
but you can see the following web site.
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kobayashi-ipfix-large-ps-01

This version focuses more description on the problems with using IPFIX
Mediator. We wrote up it according to feedback from last meeting
discussion and several comments.

Could you please read through it before next meeting. Your
comments welcome.

Regards,
Atsushi KOBAYASHI

--- 
Atsushi KOBAYASHI  <akoba@nttv6.net>
NTT Information Sharing Platform Lab.
tel:+81-(0)422-59-3978 fax:+81-(0)422-59-5637


_______________________________________________
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From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Feb 27 23:31:01 2008
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Dear all,

I submitted new version of Order of Information Elements draft.
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-irino-ipfix-ie-order-04.txt

I described some example of effective usages written in section 5 of this draft.
Could anyone read this draft and give me comments?

Regards,
Hitoshi Irino

-- 
Hitoshi Irino
NTT Network Service Systems Laboratories
9-11 Midori-cho 3-Chome, Musashino-shi, Tokyo 180-8585 Japan
Tel: +81-422-59-4403  Fax: +81-422-59-4549
_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
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Dear all,

I submitted new version of Order of Information Elements draft.
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-irino-ipfix-ie-order-04.txt

I described some example of effective usages written in section 5 of this draft.
Could anyone read this draft and give me comments?

Regards,
Hitoshi Irino

-- 
Hitoshi Irino
NTT Network Service Systems Laboratories
9-11 Midori-cho 3-Chome, Musashino-shi, Tokyo 180-8585 Japan
Tel: +81-422-59-4403  Fax: +81-422-59-4549
_______________________________________________
IPFIX mailing list
IPFIX@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipfix


From ipfix-bounces@ietf.org  Thu Feb 28 00:34:34 2008
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From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Dear all,

http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ipfix/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-03.txt 
has been posted.
It addressed the issue discussed in 
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ipfix/current/msg04243.html
The specifications are now in line with what Gerhard and Brian proposed.

Please review the draft before the IETF meeting.

Regards, Benoit.
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Subject: [IPFIX] New version of the IPFIX Export per SCTP Stream
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Dear all,

http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ipfix/draft-claise-ipfix-export-per-sctp-stream-03.txt 
has been posted.
It addressed the issue discussed in 
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ipfix/current/msg04243.html
The specifications are now in line with what Gerhard and Brian proposed.

Please review the draft before the IETF meeting.

Regards, Benoit.
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