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http://www.ermaxon.net/?xhadublkwmyr ------------567E35DA1B25677E-- From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 01 11:32:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcNCS-0005kv-Qb; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 11:28:48 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcNCR-0005kl-KN for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 11:28:47 -0400 Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcNCQ-0005aW-OS for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 11:28:47 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49A5047CCC; Mon, 1 Oct 2007 11:28:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05946-07; Mon, 1 Oct 2007 11:28:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from foo.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4911F47C0C; Mon, 1 Oct 2007 11:28:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <47011210.6090500@internet2.edu> Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 09:28:16 -0600 From: "Jeff W. Boote" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Macintosh/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Al Morton Subject: Re: [ippm] Re: TWAMP protocol References: <46FD86C5.1060603@internet2.edu> <200709291412.l8TECqxD012693@mlph070.sfdc.sbc.com> In-Reply-To: <200709291412.l8TECqxD012693@mlph070.sfdc.sbc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 932cba6e0228cc603da43d861a7e09d8 Cc: Matthew J Zekauskas , IETF IPPM WG X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Al Morton wrote: > Jeff wrote: >> First, this does not address the point of how a twamp or owamp client >> would differentiate between these servers. These are fundamentally >> different tests, and I'm concerned with idea of having twamp clients >> attempting to run tests against existing owamp servers. There doesn't >> seem to be any mechanism to determine if the server is an owamp or >> twamp server, other than attempting to use this new message. An owamp >> server, not knowing anything about this message should just close the >> socket. That is not really a clear indication of the problem to the >> client. > > Why wouldn't the OWAMP-only Server respond with a non-zero Accept field > in the Accept-Session message? This would provide a clear indication, > and then the Server is prohibited from simply closing the connection. > > OWAMP says: > ... >> 3.3. Values of the Accept Field >> Accept values are used throughout the OWAMP-Control protocol to >> communicate the server response to client requests. The full set of >> valid Accept field values are as follows: >> 0 OK. >> 1 Failure, reason unspecified (catch-all). >> 2 Internal error. >> 3 Some aspect of request is not supported. > ... > Values 1 or 3 seem applicable here. Also, in section 3.5 on the > Accept Session Message: The Accept values are used in very specific locations in the OWAMP protocol. They are not a response to random data. A TWAMP client would be sending a bit pattern that is not recognized by an OWAMP server. To an OWAMP server, this would indicate a non-functional or errant client. The point is the first 8 bits of control messages were NOT identified in the OWAMP protocol as an extensible field. If there is anything there other than the very specific things an implementation expects, it is an error condition. It would of course be possible to issue an errata to the OWAMP protocol, but it would be far more extensive than pointing at an IANA registry of Control-Message identifiers. You would have to cull-out that field as something unique and indicate how it needs to be extensible. I for one would not be in favor of this since it adversely effects existing clients and servers, and there is a reasonable work-around in using the OWAMP defined extension mechanism. > ... >> In this message, zero in the Accept field means that the server is >> willing to conduct the session. A non-zero value indicates rejection >> of the request. The full list of available Accept values is >> described in Section 3.3, "Values of the Accept Field". >> >> If the server rejects a Request-Session message, it SHOULD not close >> the TCP connection. The client MAY close it if it receives a >> negative response to the Request-Session message. > ... > > The expectation of Accept field usage seems like a reasonable > interpretation of the OWAMP spec, to me. > (unless there's an OWAMP paragraph that says > "close the socket if an unexpected command is received" > which wouldn't be very tuned-in to Postel's robustness principle > http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc793#section-2.10 ). > > > Jeff wrote: >> Second, I am curious what more you think would change in the protocol >> other than one bit of the mode word? > > I think the point is that this is *another change*, and the mantra > has been to minimize changes to OWAMP when developing TWAMP. The suggestion I have given means 0 changes for the OWAMP protocol. The mode field was called out in RFC 4656 to make this extensible: The following Mode values are meaningful: 1 for unauthenticated, 2 for authenticated, and 4 for encrypted. The value of the Modes field sent by the server is the bit-wise OR of the mode values that it is willing to support during this session. Thus, the last three bits of the Modes 32-bit value are used. The first 29 bits MUST be zero. A client MUST ignore the values in the first 29 bits of the Modes value. (This way, the bits are available for future protocol extensions. This is the only intended extension mechanism.) OWAMP clients already MUST ignore those bits. This makes it very simple for a TWAMP client to use them without it effecting OWAMP at all. OWAMP servers could, if they wanted - support the TWAMP protocol in addition to the OWAMP protocol. But, they would not be required to. This makes the changes completely backwards compatible for the already deployed clients and servers. > Jeff wrote: >> Third, the reason I said the IANA registry would be unneeded, is that >> a different mode bit could just as easily indicate a completely >> different set of messages. I was referring to an IANA registry for the >> OWAMP-Control commands. It probably would still be useful to use an >> IANA registry to keep track of individual mode bits. The mode bits >> would represent the full set of protocol messages that are allowed for >> that given protocol mode. > > Right, yet another IANA registry would be needed to keep track of > extensions to the mode bits. Kaynam and I concluded that the > new Session Request command, with no schedule and other changes, > would still require an IANA registry, so we propose to create only > one at this time. Having the "mode" change a command so drastically > didn't seem clear. If you have an IANA registry indicating the mode bits - there is no reason to have one to enumerate the new session request. Current OWAMP clients/servers won't care - it is not in the set of control messages they will use. If an implementation decides to add that mode bit, then they will care to implement all of the messages from both protocols. So, it is true that some coordination will be necessary if either of these protocols need to evolve in the future, if it is done this way. But, that coordination is in RFC space, and it is not necessary in an IANA registry. (Other than the enumeration of mode bits, as I have said.) > Another view: we are envisioning *many* Server/Session-Reflectors > that support TWAMP at a minimum, and perhaps a subset that support both. > OWAMP-only clients have a simple way out of a session they can't support > by using the Accept field. Ok - so this gets to the heart of the matter. What is the reason for wanting to put TWAMP on the same port? If it is to be able to have a single server that can run both kinds of tests - then it is important that clients/servers be able to determine capabilities of the server. So, the mode bit is very important for that. If the point is that it was very close to what you needed, then fine. Use it, but don't interfere with the already deployed OWAMP servers and clients that are out there. Get a new port number assigned. In my opinion, if you are using the already allocated and defined OWAMP port, the servers should be required to do OWAMP tests and optionally add TWAMP tests. Not the other way around as you have indicated. 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------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C80824.03D154F7-- From ungwbvocnwe@blindsonsale.com Sat Oct 06 11:23:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IeBVK-0007iQ-P6; Sat, 06 Oct 2007 11:23:46 -0400 Received: from [122.161.15.131] (helo=ABTS-NCR-Dynamic-131.15.161.122.airtelbroadband.in) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IeBVA-0007nX-Qp; Sat, 06 Oct 2007 11:23:44 -0400 Received: from [122.161.15.131] by mx4.business.mindspring.com; Sat, 6 Oct 2007 20:53:12 +0530 From: "Courtney Brandon" To: Subject: Venezuela, U.S. diplomats hold 'cordial' talks Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 20:53:12 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C8082C.CEE22710" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: Aca6QWAFVXH745PY42CGU25W780FOJ== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Message-ID: <01c8082c$cee22710$830fa17a@ungwbvocnwe> X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 303e29529f30c23b95ea718537067fd5 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C8082C.CEE22710 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C8082C.CEE22710" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C8082C.CEE22710 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In Asia on Tuesday, Tokyo's Nikkei 225 gained 200 points to close up 1.19 percent at 17,047, its highest finish since August 9. Technology companies Sony (4.2 percent) and Canon (2.6 percent) and automakers Nissan (3 percent) were among the biggest gainers. In early September Brown dismissed a suggestion that a withdrawal by UK troops from their base in the southern Iraqi city of Basra was a defeat, insisting it was an "organized" move. He made the comments as 500 British troops completed their withdrawal from Basra Palace. "The Nikkei appears to be in a gradual uptrend now," Nobuyuki Nagamorim, a technical analyst at Unimat Yamamaru Securities, told The Associated Press. Carol Ann Gotbaum may have accidentally strangled herself while trying to get out of her handcuffs, Phoenix Police Department spokesman Sgt. Andy Hill said Saturday.BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- British Prime Minister Gordon Brown arrived in Baghdad on Tuesday for meetings with Iraqi government officials, the British Embassy in Baghdad said. Todd Allen, a Las Vegas resident, told CNN he once lived with the girl from the video and her mother. He said he recognizes his old apartment from scenes in the video. He said he knows the suspect because Allen's mother dated Stiles and the couple spent time together at Allen's apartment. Watch Allen describe Stiles and the girl » "She's what you'd expect a little girl in elementary school to be like," he said. "You would never know something like that happened. Ever." Finding Gotbaum "unconscious and not breathing," Hill said, officers performed CPR. Allen said nobody realized the child had been abused. Allen said he never witnessed Stiles physically assault anyone.(CNN) -- Darren Tuck, the man who gave police a tape depicting the rape of a 3-year-old girl, turned himself in Sunday to Nye County, Nevada, authorities. Someone close to Stiles told investigators Stiles is a "survivalist type" and always carries a weapon, Nye County District Attorney Bob Beckett said. While handcuffed, the New Yorker became "disruptive" and she was taken to a holding room, where she was left alone, Hill told CNN affiliate KTVK. "According to investigators, it appeared as though Ms. Gotbaum had possibly tried to manipulate the handcuffs from behind her to the front, got tangled up in the process, and they ended up around her neck area," he said. "But I have seen him verbally and mentally assault many people," Allen told CNN. "He's good with mind games. He's good at twisting people's realities and manipulating people." Betsy Gotbaum called Carol Ann Gotbaum "a wonderful, wonderful person" and a great mother. She said the family was dealing with the situation "the best way we can." Witnesses told police that Gotbaum was "yelling and screaming" and running through the terminal Friday. She was arrested for disorderly conduct. ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C8082C.CEE22710 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In Asia on Tuesday, Tokyo's Nikkei 225 gained 200 points to close up = 1.19 percent at 17,047, its highest finish since August 9. Technology com= panies Sony (4.2 percent) and Canon (2.6 percent) and automakers Nissan (= 3 percent) were among the biggest gainers.


In early September Brown dismissed a suggestion that a withdrawal by = UK troops from their base in the southern Iraqi city of Basra was a defea= t, insisting it was an "organized" move. He made the comments as 500 Brit= ish troops completed their withdrawal from Basra Palace.


"The Nikkei appears to be in a gradual uptrend now," Nobuyuki Nagamor= im, a technical analyst at Unimat Yamamaru Securities, told The Associate= d Press.


Carol Ann Gotbaum may have accidentally strangled herself while tryin= g to get out of her handcuffs, Phoenix Police Department spokesman Sgt. A= ndy Hill said Saturday.


BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- British Prime Minister Gordon Brown arri= ved in Baghdad on Tuesday for meetings with Iraqi government officials, t= he British Embassy in Baghdad said.


Todd Allen, a Las Vegas resident, told CNN he once lived with the g= irl from the video and her mother. He said he recognizes his old apartmen= t from scenes in the video. He said he knows the suspect because Allen's = mother dated Stiles and the couple spent time together at Allen's apartme= nt. Watch Allen describe Stiles and the girl =BB


"She's what you'd expect a little girl in elementary school to be lik= e," he said. "You would never know something like that happened. Ever."

Finding Gotbaum "unconscious and not breathing," Hill said, officers = performed CPR.


Allen said nobody realized the child had been abused.


Allen said he never witnessed Stiles physically assault anyone.

(CNN) -- Darren Tuck, the man who gave police a tape depicting th= e rape of a 3-year-old girl, turned himself in Sunday to Nye County, Neva= da, authorities.


Someone close to Stiles told investigators Stiles is a "survivalist t= ype" and always carries a weapon, Nye County District Attorney Bob Becket= t said.


While handcuffed, the New Yorker became "disruptive" and she was take= n to a holding room, where she was left alone, Hill told CNN affiliate KT= VK.


"According to investigators, it appeared as though Ms. Gotbaum had po= ssibly tried to manipulate the handcuffs from behind her to the front, go= t tangled up in the process, and they ended up around her neck area," he = said.


"But I have seen him verbally and mentally assault many people," Alle= n told CNN. "He's good with mind games. He's good at twisting people's re= alities and manipulating people."


Betsy Gotbaum called Carol Ann Gotbaum "a wonderful, wonderful person= " and a great mother. She said the family was dealing with the situation = "the best way we can."


Witnesses told police that Gotbaum was "yelling and screaming" and ru= nning through the terminal Friday. She was arrested for disorderly conduc= t.


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This event focuses on research and practical applications of network measurement and analysis techniques. The conference's goal is to provide a forum for current work in its early stages. Original papers are invited from the research and operations communities on topics including, but not limited to: * Active Network Measurements * Passive Network Measurements * Performance Metrics * Traffic Statistics * Measurement Visualization * New Measurement Approaches & Techniques * Deployment of Measurement Infrastructure * New Measurement Initiatives * Applications of Network Measurements * Network Measurements and Security * Network Troubleshooting using Measurements * Reproduce (or Refute) Previous Measurement Results PAM values contributions that are broader than experimental papers. Data and tool release are seen as first-class contributions and preference will be given in that direction. In particular, releasing measurement data allows for better science to be conducted in the field of network measurement. Therefore, an award will be given at PAM 2008 for the best paper based on a new dataset that the authors are releasing for community use in subsequent research. To qualify, a paper must significantly utilize a dataset that has been collected for the work presented in the paper. Further, the dataset must be freely available to any researcher; wireless data sets may, for instance, be published through CRAWDAD. Novel datasets are especially encouraged. The awarded paper will be chosen from the set of qualifying papers accepted for the conference by a committee made up of a subset of the program and steering committees. Conference Web Page ------------------- http://pam2008.cs.wpi.edu/ http://www.pamconf.org/ Submission Information ---------------------- To ensure PAM 2008 is fresh and interesting, we are soliciting papers, submitted in the LNCS format, that do not exceed 10 pages. No additional space will be given once a paper has been accepted. Authors should flag papers they wish to be considered for the best paper based on a new dataset award with a footnote on the first page of the paper. The proceedings of past PAM conferences were published in Springer LNCS series, and we have a preliminary indication from Springer that this will continue for PAM 2008 (pending the formal agreement). Authors are, as always, asked to refrain from submitting papers submitted to PAM to other venues during the reviewing period. Organization Committee --------------------------- Michael Rabinovich Case Western Reserve University General Chair Mark Claypool Worcester Polytechnic Institute Program Chair Steve Uhlig Delft University of Technology Publication Chair= Technical Program Committee --------------------------- Mark Allman ICSI Grenville Armitage Swinburne University of Technology Surendar Chandra Notre Dame Jae Chung Airvana Wu-Chang Feng Portland State University Wu-Chi Feng Portland State University P=E5l Halvorsen University of Oslo Manish Jain Telchemy Kevin Jeffay University of North Carolina Simon Leinen Switch Kang Li University of Georgia Ibrahim Matta Boston University Ketan Mayer-Patel University of North Carolina Anees Shaikh IBM Research Coleen Shannon CAIDA Augustin Soule Thomson Research Peter Steenkiste Carnegie Mellon University Ooi Wei Tsang National University of Singapore Steve Uhlig Delft University of Technology Carey Williamson University of Calgary Craig Wills Worcester Polytechnic Institute Huahui Wu Google Michael Zink University of Massachusetts =20 Steering Committee ------------------- Mark Allman ICSI Nevil Brownlee University of Auckland Mark Claypool Worcester Polytechnic Institute Ian Graham Endace Konstantina Papagiannaki Intel Research Pittsburgh Michael Rabinovich Case Western Reserve University Matthew Roughan University of Adelaide Steve Uhlig Delft University of Technology _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From vydstonebridgecomsug@stonebridgecom.com Mon Oct 15 03:40:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhKZH-0006vu-5C; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 03:40:51 -0400 Received: from softicom.vlan218.raven.lubman.net.pl ([212.182.95.168] helo=strojek.softicom.lublin.pl) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhKZ2-00056B-6F; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 03:40:48 -0400 Received: from [212.182.95.168] by mx.stonebridgecom.com; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 08:40:55 +0100 Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 08:40:55 +0100 From: "James Avila" X-Mailer: The Bat! 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From Michelle350@artscoffee.com Tue Oct 16 18:26:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ihurm-0005Gs-KQ for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 18:26:22 -0400 Received: from [190.65.205.218] (helo=[190.65.205.218]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ihurj-0001PD-6s for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 18:26:20 -0400 Received: by 10.82.91.218 with SMTP id tBmRlqGxURNJk; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:25:40 -0500 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.29.45 with SMTP id HDYHecjwCgwIdR.5877753670040; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:25:38 -0500 (GMT) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 17:25:35 -0500 To: ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org From: "Michelle Mushumanski" Subject: nsivdnur Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Hello readers ippm-archive dont get held back because of your little willy anymore! http://www.hargris.com/ Michelle Mushumanski From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 17 09:30:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ii8v4-0000gK-Co; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 09:26:42 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ii8v1-0000eM-UW for ippm@ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 09:26:39 -0400 Received: from p-mail2.rd.francetelecom.com ([195.101.245.16]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ii8uu-0004gh-MH for ippm@ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 09:26:39 -0400 Received: from ftrdmel1.rd.francetelecom.fr ([10.193.117.152]) by ftrdsmtp2.rd.francetelecom.fr with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:26:11 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:26:03 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <46FCF9BD.7060301@ripe.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: comment on http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-02 Thread-Index: AcgB03/NqHuCFVapTm2uF9m4uv7t8gOzbxZA References: <45F6545C.8060507@ripe.net> <7B853912-640E-4604-8C07-639DED7AA762@nokia.com> <46FC94DE.2080405@ripe.net> <46FCF9BD.7060301@ripe.net> From: "STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN" To: "Henk Uijterwaal" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Oct 2007 13:26:11.0785 (UTC) FILETIME=[48E66390:01C810C1] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2c6813ed945e40b4b5bea39da243c669 Cc: Al Morton , IETF IPPM WG Subject: [ippm] comment on http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-02 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1132012060==" Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1132012060== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C810C1.4854F7D4" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C810C1.4854F7D4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Henk, =20 I have several comments.=20 =20 =20 Scope: =20 The doc makes a lot of comparison with application behaviors. So, does = it make sense to highlight that the doc does not cover the measure of = retransmission of packets at the transport level or upper? =20 Definition of packet arrival count: =20 The example (with the TTL) should not be in the definition section. Fields of the header which do not change with the path = must/may be part of the identification of a packet.=20 =20 =20 Methodoly: =20 The methodology (section 2.6) of the draft refers to section 2.6 of = RFC2680 which speaks about sync of clocks:=20 Is the sync of clocks really needed for detecting packet duplication?=20 Can the timeout correspond to the inter arrival time between the first = packet received and the first duplicated packet received?=20 Or is it mandatory to compute the diff of the owd? =20 =20 =20 Relation with ITU/T Y.1540: =20 Are Type-P-one-way-packet-duplication-fraction and IP packet duplicate = ratio (IPDR) equal? Are Type-P-one-way-replicated-packet-rate and replicated IP packet ratio = (RIPR) equal? =20 Is there also an equivalent to the singletons definition?=20 =20 =20 Editorial: =20 Add " count" to section 2 title. I found a duplication of ',' in =A72 of section 3.4 :-) =20 regards Emile =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C810C1.4854F7D4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Henk,

 

I have several comments. =

 

 

Scope:<= /font>

 <= /font>

The doc makes a lot of = comparison with application behaviors. So, does it make sense to highlight that the = doc does not cover the measure of retransmission of packets at the transport = level or upper?

 <= /font>

Definition of packet = arrival count:

 <= /font>

The = example (with the TTL) should not be in the definition = section.

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = Fields of the header which do not change with the = path must/may be part of the identification of a = packet.

 

 

Methodoly:

 

The methodology (section 2.6) of the draft refers to section 2.6 of = RFC2680 which speaks about sync of clocks:

Is the sync of clocks = really needed for detecting packet duplication?

Can the timeout correspond to the inter arrival time between the = first packet received and the first duplicated packet received? =

Or is it mandatory to compute the diff of the owd?

 <= /font>

 <= /font>

 <= /font>

Relation with ITU/T = Y.1540:

 

Are = Type-P-one-way-packet-duplication-fraction and IP packet duplicate ratio (IPDR) equal?

Are Type-P-one-way-replicated-packet-rate and replicated IP packet ratio = (RIPR) equal?

 

Is there = also an equivalent to the singletons definition?

 

 

Editorial:

 <= /font>

Add " count" to section 2 title.

I found a duplication of = ',' in =A72 of section 3.4 :-)

 

regards

Emile=A0=A0 =

 

 

 

 

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"But I have seen him verbally and mentally assault many people," Alle= n told CNN. "He's good with mind games. He's good at twisting people's re= alities and manipulating people."


"It becomes a psychological phenomenon. Investors know that there are= inherent risks in the market, but at the same time, they're rationalizin= g any bad news."


In Asia on Tuesday, Tokyo's Nikkei 225 gained 200 points to close up = 1.19 percent at 17,047, its highest finish since August 9. Technology com= panies Sony (4.2 percent) and Canon (2.6 percent) and automakers Nissan (= 3 percent) were among the biggest gainers.


CNN and other news organizations did so until the child was found, an= d De Meo asked media to stop showing the picture.


Authorities have identified Chester A. Stiles, 37, as the suspect in = the tape. A resident of Pahrump, Nevada, he remains at-large, De Meo sai= d. Pahrump is about 60 miles west of Las Vegas.


"The Nikkei appears to be in a gradual uptrend now," Nobuyuki Nagamor= im, a technical analyst at Unimat Yamamaru Securities, told The Associate= d Press.


The Dow Jones industrial average added nearly 192 points to end at an= all-time high of 14,087.55 points on Monday amid hopes that banks have p= ut the worst of the recent 'credit crunch' behind them and expectations t= hat the Federal Reserve will continue to cut interest rates.


The tech-dominated Nasdaq also gained 1.5 percent for its highest clo= se since February 2001 while the S&P 500 gained 1.3 percent.


Gotbaum was the mother of three young children and the daughter-in-la= w of longtime New York City Public Advocate Betsy Gotbaum.


Someone close to Stiles told investigators Stiles is a "survivalist t= ype" and always carries a weapon, Nye County District Attorney Bob Becket= t said.


Witnesses told police that Gotbaum was "yelling and screaming" and ru= nning through the terminal Friday. She was arrested for disorderly conduc= t.


"The mother has cooperated with us," De Meo said. "We believe that th= e mother was not aware of anything that went on with this young girl. It = was very sad for her to find this out."


Stiles was a distant friend of the girl's family, De Meo said.

Betsy Gotbaum called Carol Ann Gotbaum "a wonderful, wonderful person= " and a great mother. She said the family was dealing with the situation = "the best way we can."


A spokeswoman for the Maricopa County medical examiner said an autops= y would be conducted Monday morning.


"She's what you'd expect a little girl in elementary school to be lik= e," he said. "You would never know something like that happened. Ever."

While handcuffed, the New Yorker became "disruptive" and she was take= n to a holding room, where she was left alone, Hill told CNN affiliate KT= VK.


Todd Allen, a Las Vegas resident, told CNN he once lived with the g= irl from the video and her mother. He said he recognizes his old apartmen= t from scenes in the video. He said he knows the suspect because Allen's = mother dated Stiles and the couple spent time together at Allen's apartme= nt. Watch Allen describe Stiles and the girl =BB


"Sometime during the time she went into custody, she went into medica= l distress," he said.


Allen said nobody realized the child had been abused.


(CNN) -- Darren Tuck, the man who gave police a tape depicting th= e rape of a 3-year-old girl, turned himself in Sunday to Nye County, Neva= da, authorities.


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1P8hIAAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C810F0.4303B110-- From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 17 13:35:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiCj8-0005lw-Cs; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:30:38 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiCj6-0005lq-Hk for ippm@ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:30:36 -0400 Received: from brixmail.brixnet.com ([63.122.27.37] helo=brixmail.ma.brixnet.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiCiy-0004K3-WF for ippm@ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:30:36 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [ippm] Re: TWAMP protocol Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:30:18 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <47011210.6090500@internet2.edu> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ippm] Re: TWAMP protocol Thread-Index: AcgEP8VtNV07XP5ATEOLOcxPz/EORgMlTgVg From: "Hedayat, Kaynam" To: "Jeff W. Boote" , "Al Morton" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4b66a1e94d7d92973ece9e5da449ff80 Cc: Matthew J Zekauskas , IETF IPPM WG X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Jeff, After examining your suggestion further we have realized that there is a fundamental flaw in using the mode field for capability exchange. The OWAMP protocol assumes that all servers at a minimum support OWAMP. That is the mode field was not designed as a capability exchange mechanism but rather a mode of communication exchange. The problem is that with using the mode field an OWAMP client cannot detect a TWAMP only server and will get rejections when requesting sessions (OWAMP clients/servers MUST ignore the first 29 bits of the mode field). There are 3 options that we have at this point: 1. Go with what originally was proposed. OWAMP servers will reject Request-Session from TWAMP clients requesting a TWAMP session. We can add text to the TWAMP draft and clarify this. 2. Add new bit definitions to the mode field. We will have to require OWAMP clients/servers to change their implementation and not ignore the first 29 bits of the mode field. There are two options here: 2a mode bits as follows: 8 - OWAMP only (current OWAMP implementations do not set bit 8) 16 - TWAMP only 2b mode bits as follows: 8 - TWAMP only (current OWAMP implementations will not see these bits) 16 - OWAMP and TWAMP capability 3. Use a different "well-known" port for TWAMP Authors are proponents of the first or the third option. The second option will work but needs modification of currently implemented OWAMP clients/servers. Regards, Kaynam & Al > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff W. Boote [mailto:boote@internet2.edu]=20 > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 11:28 AM > To: Al Morton > Cc: Hedayat, Kaynam; Matthew J Zekauskas; IETF IPPM WG > Subject: Re: [ippm] Re: TWAMP protocol >=20 > Al Morton wrote: > > Jeff wrote: > >> First, this does not address the point of how a twamp or=20 > owamp client=20 > >> would differentiate between these servers. These are fundamentally=20 > >> different tests, and I'm concerned with idea of having=20 > twamp clients=20 > >> attempting to run tests against existing owamp servers.=20 > There doesn't=20 > >> seem to be any mechanism to determine if the server is an owamp or=20 > >> twamp server, other than attempting to use this new=20 > message. An owamp=20 > >> server, not knowing anything about this message should=20 > just close the=20 > >> socket. That is not really a clear indication of the=20 > problem to the=20 > >> client. > >=20 > > Why wouldn't the OWAMP-only Server respond with a non-zero Accept=20 > > field in the Accept-Session message? This would provide a clear=20 > > indication, and then the Server is prohibited from simply=20 > closing the connection. > >=20 > > OWAMP says: > > ... > >> 3.3. Values of the Accept Field > >> Accept values are used throughout the OWAMP-Control protocol to > >> communicate the server response to client requests. =20 > The full set of > >> valid Accept field values are as follows: > >> 0 OK. > >> 1 Failure, reason unspecified (catch-all). > >> 2 Internal error. > >> 3 Some aspect of request is not supported. > > ... > > Values 1 or 3 seem applicable here. Also, in section 3.5 on=20 > the Accept=20 > > Session Message: >=20 > The Accept values are used in very specific locations in the=20 > OWAMP protocol.=20 > They are not a response to random data. A TWAMP client would=20 > be sending a bit pattern that is not recognized by an OWAMP=20 > server. To an OWAMP server, this would indicate a=20 > non-functional or errant client. >=20 > The point is the first 8 bits of control messages were NOT=20 > identified in the OWAMP protocol as an extensible field. If=20 > there is anything there other than the very specific things=20 > an implementation expects, it is an error condition. >=20 > It would of course be possible to issue an errata to the=20 > OWAMP protocol, but it would be far more extensive than=20 > pointing at an IANA registry of Control-Message identifiers.=20 > You would have to cull-out that field as something unique and=20 > indicate how it needs to be extensible. >=20 > I for one would not be in favor of this since it adversely=20 > effects existing clients and servers, and there is a=20 > reasonable work-around in using the OWAMP defined extension mechanism. >=20 > > ... > >> In this message, zero in the Accept field means that=20 > the server is > >> willing to conduct the session. A non-zero value=20 > indicates rejection > >> of the request. The full list of available Accept values is > >> described in Section 3.3, "Values of the Accept Field". > >> > >> If the server rejects a Request-Session message, it=20 > SHOULD not close > >> the TCP connection. The client MAY close it if it receives a > >> negative response to the Request-Session message. > > ... > >=20 > > The expectation of Accept field usage seems like a reasonable=20 > > interpretation of the OWAMP spec, to me. > > (unless there's an OWAMP paragraph that says "close the=20 > socket if an=20 > > unexpected command is received" > > which wouldn't be very tuned-in to Postel's robustness principle=20 > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc793#section-2.10 ). > >=20 > >=20 > > Jeff wrote: > >> Second, I am curious what more you think would change in=20 > the protocol=20 > >> other than one bit of the mode word? > >=20 > > I think the point is that this is *another change*, and the=20 > mantra has=20 > > been to minimize changes to OWAMP when developing TWAMP. >=20 > The suggestion I have given means 0 changes for the OWAMP=20 > protocol. The mode field was called out in RFC 4656 to make=20 > this extensible: >=20 > The following Mode values are meaningful: 1 for unauthenticated, 2 > for authenticated, and 4 for encrypted. The value of the=20 > Modes field > sent by the server is the bit-wise OR of the mode values=20 > that it is > willing to support during this session. Thus, the last=20 > three bits of > the Modes 32-bit value are used. The first 29 bits MUST=20 > be zero. A > client MUST ignore the values in the first 29 bits of the Modes > value. (This way, the bits are available for future protocol > extensions. This is the only intended extension mechanism.) >=20 > OWAMP clients already MUST ignore those bits. This makes it=20 > very simple for a TWAMP client to use them without it=20 > effecting OWAMP at all. >=20 > OWAMP servers could, if they wanted - support the TWAMP=20 > protocol in addition to the OWAMP protocol. But, they would=20 > not be required to. This makes the changes completely=20 > backwards compatible for the already deployed clients and servers. >=20 > > Jeff wrote: > >> Third, the reason I said the IANA registry would be=20 > unneeded, is that=20 > >> a different mode bit could just as easily indicate a completely=20 > >> different set of messages. I was referring to an IANA registry for=20 > >> the OWAMP-Control commands. It probably would still be=20 > useful to use=20 > >> an IANA registry to keep track of individual mode bits.=20 > The mode bits=20 > >> would represent the full set of protocol messages that are allowed=20 > >> for that given protocol mode. > >=20 > > Right, yet another IANA registry would be needed to keep track of=20 > > extensions to the mode bits. Kaynam and I concluded that the new=20 > > Session Request command, with no schedule and other changes, would=20 > > still require an IANA registry, so we propose to create only one at=20 > > this time. Having the "mode" change a command so drastically didn't=20 > > seem clear. >=20 > If you have an IANA registry indicating the mode bits - there=20 > is no reason to have one to enumerate the new session=20 > request. Current OWAMP clients/servers won't care - it is not=20 > in the set of control messages they will use. >=20 > If an implementation decides to add that mode bit, then they=20 > will care to implement all of the messages from both=20 > protocols. So, it is true that some coordination will be=20 > necessary if either of these protocols need to evolve in the=20 > future, if it is done this way. But, that coordination is in=20 > RFC space, and it is not necessary in an IANA registry.=20 > (Other than the enumeration of mode bits, as I have said.) >=20 > > Another view: we are envisioning *many* Server/Session-Reflectors=20 > > that support TWAMP at a minimum, and perhaps a subset that=20 > support both. > > OWAMP-only clients have a simple way out of a session they can't=20 > > support by using the Accept field. >=20 > Ok - so this gets to the heart of the matter. What is the=20 > reason for wanting to put TWAMP on the same port? If it is to=20 > be able to have a single server that can run both kinds of=20 > tests - then it is important that clients/servers be able to=20 > determine capabilities of the server. So, the mode bit is=20 > very important for that. >=20 > If the point is that it was very close to what you needed,=20 > then fine. Use it, but don't interfere with the already=20 > deployed OWAMP servers and clients that are out there. Get a=20 > new port number assigned. >=20 > In my opinion, if you are using the already allocated and=20 > defined OWAMP port, the servers should be required to do=20 > OWAMP tests and optionally add TWAMP tests.=20 > Not the other way around as you have indicated. This is=20 > simply because there are already deployed OWAMP=20 > clients/servers and the expected usage of port 861 is already=20 > well defined. >=20 > jeff >=20 _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 17 15:48:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiEoS-0000Zn-I1; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:44:16 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiEoQ-0000WT-DE for ippm@ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:44:14 -0400 Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiEoP-0000wx-2a for ippm@ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:44:14 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9683147C70; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:44:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25732-09; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:44:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from foo.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41AE947C52; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:44:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <47166607.2010209@internet2.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:44:07 -0600 From: "Jeff W. Boote" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Macintosh/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Hedayat, Kaynam" Subject: Re: [ippm] Re: TWAMP protocol References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a4e5f67c5e230eddf754446d1a2201a4 Cc: IETF IPPM WG , Al Morton , Matthew J Zekauskas X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Kaynam, Al, Thanks for your detailed response. Hedayat, Kaynam wrote: > Jeff, > > After examining your suggestion further we have realized that there is a > fundamental flaw in using the mode field for capability exchange. The > OWAMP protocol assumes that all servers at a minimum support OWAMP. That > is the mode field was not designed as a capability exchange mechanism > but rather a mode of communication exchange. The problem is that with > using the mode field an OWAMP client cannot detect a TWAMP only server > and will get rejections when requesting sessions (OWAMP clients/servers > MUST ignore the first 29 bits of the mode field). I guess I think that if TWAMP is attempting to use the OWAMP port, it follows that it should support the full OWAMP protocol. If instead, you are just attempting to make use of pieces of the OWAMP protocol for TWAMP, it probably makes sense for you to have a new port number allocated for TWAMP. > There are 3 options that we have at this point: > > 1. Go with what originally was proposed. OWAMP servers will reject > Request-Session from TWAMP clients requesting a TWAMP session. We can > add text to the TWAMP draft and clarify this. There is no reason an existing OWAMP server would reject a TWAMP request (in the sense of a non-zero Accept value in an Accept-Session message). This will just be corrupt data from the point of view of an OWAMP server. There is nothing in RFC 4656 that says it must/should send a deny message when it receives a message with the first octet set to 5. That is invalid in the protocol, and there is no defined acceptable response message for corrupt data. Specifically, from RFC 4656, 3.4 paragraph 3: The following commands are available for the client: Request-Session, Start-Sessions, Stop-Sessions, and Fetch-Session. The Request-Session described here is from RFC 4656 with the first octet set to 1, and not the TWAMP version with the first octet set to 5. None of the above listed commands have a 5 in the first octet. To outline the consequences of this issue: an OWAMP server must key on the first octet to determine how long the specific command message is. An unknown value here does not give the OWAMP server enough information for it to know where the end of this unknown command is. So, it has no way to know how much to read to find where the beginning of the next command would be in the stream. I have looked at our OWAMP server implementation, and I believe it will simply close the connection in this case (and log the error). But, I did not spend time to create a TWAMP request message to test this. In this case, clients will not have any indication of why the connection is being closed. It could be due to a network partition, or due to host events/firewalls. This does not seem to fit well with the principle of least astonishment. Also, there are other implementations of OWAMP-Control out there. I have no idea how they would react to corrupt data in the control stream. Essentially, we are in unspecified behavior here. > 2. Add new bit definitions to the mode field. We will have to require > OWAMP clients/servers to change their implementation and not ignore the > first 29 bits of the mode field. There are two options here: > 2a mode bits as follows: > 8 - OWAMP only (current OWAMP implementations do not set bit 8) > 16 - TWAMP only > > 2b mode bits as follows: > 8 - TWAMP only (current OWAMP implementations will not see these > bits) > 16 - OWAMP and TWAMP capability Would this require a new RFC for OWAMP? Or can something like this be added with an errata? I suspect this might be too much for an errata. > 3. Use a different "well-known" port for TWAMP > > Authors are proponents of the first or the third option. The second > option will work but needs modification of currently implemented OWAMP > clients/servers. I am in favor of the third option. I believe I have shown that the first option would also require modification of currently implemented OWAMP servers. Alternatively, I would support a solution where the TWAMP protocol was in fact an extension to the OWAMP protocol. This could be done with the mode bits as I indicated previously. (I think I could probably find you an open-source implementation of the pieces you are missing... ;) ) jeff > Regards, > Kaynam & Al > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jeff W. Boote [mailto:boote@internet2.edu] >> Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 11:28 AM >> To: Al Morton >> Cc: Hedayat, Kaynam; Matthew J Zekauskas; IETF IPPM WG >> Subject: Re: [ippm] Re: TWAMP protocol >> >> Al Morton wrote: >>> Jeff wrote: >>>> First, this does not address the point of how a twamp or >> owamp client >>>> would differentiate between these servers. These are fundamentally >>>> different tests, and I'm concerned with idea of having >> twamp clients >>>> attempting to run tests against existing owamp servers. >> There doesn't >>>> seem to be any mechanism to determine if the server is an owamp or >>>> twamp server, other than attempting to use this new >> message. An owamp >>>> server, not knowing anything about this message should >> just close the >>>> socket. That is not really a clear indication of the >> problem to the >>>> client. >>> Why wouldn't the OWAMP-only Server respond with a non-zero Accept >>> field in the Accept-Session message? This would provide a clear >>> indication, and then the Server is prohibited from simply >> closing the connection. >>> OWAMP says: >>> ... >>>> 3.3. Values of the Accept Field >>>> Accept values are used throughout the OWAMP-Control protocol to >>>> communicate the server response to client requests. >> The full set of >>>> valid Accept field values are as follows: >>>> 0 OK. >>>> 1 Failure, reason unspecified (catch-all). >>>> 2 Internal error. >>>> 3 Some aspect of request is not supported. >>> ... >>> Values 1 or 3 seem applicable here. Also, in section 3.5 on >> the Accept >>> Session Message: >> The Accept values are used in very specific locations in the >> OWAMP protocol. >> They are not a response to random data. A TWAMP client would >> be sending a bit pattern that is not recognized by an OWAMP >> server. To an OWAMP server, this would indicate a >> non-functional or errant client. >> >> The point is the first 8 bits of control messages were NOT >> identified in the OWAMP protocol as an extensible field. If >> there is anything there other than the very specific things >> an implementation expects, it is an error condition. >> >> It would of course be possible to issue an errata to the >> OWAMP protocol, but it would be far more extensive than >> pointing at an IANA registry of Control-Message identifiers. >> You would have to cull-out that field as something unique and >> indicate how it needs to be extensible. >> >> I for one would not be in favor of this since it adversely >> effects existing clients and servers, and there is a >> reasonable work-around in using the OWAMP defined extension mechanism. >> >>> ... >>>> In this message, zero in the Accept field means that >> the server is >>>> willing to conduct the session. A non-zero value >> indicates rejection >>>> of the request. The full list of available Accept values is >>>> described in Section 3.3, "Values of the Accept Field". >>>> >>>> If the server rejects a Request-Session message, it >> SHOULD not close >>>> the TCP connection. The client MAY close it if it receives a >>>> negative response to the Request-Session message. >>> ... >>> >>> The expectation of Accept field usage seems like a reasonable >>> interpretation of the OWAMP spec, to me. >>> (unless there's an OWAMP paragraph that says "close the >> socket if an >>> unexpected command is received" >>> which wouldn't be very tuned-in to Postel's robustness principle >>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc793#section-2.10 ). >>> >>> >>> Jeff wrote: >>>> Second, I am curious what more you think would change in >> the protocol >>>> other than one bit of the mode word? >>> I think the point is that this is *another change*, and the >> mantra has >>> been to minimize changes to OWAMP when developing TWAMP. >> The suggestion I have given means 0 changes for the OWAMP >> protocol. The mode field was called out in RFC 4656 to make >> this extensible: >> >> The following Mode values are meaningful: 1 for unauthenticated, 2 >> for authenticated, and 4 for encrypted. The value of the >> Modes field >> sent by the server is the bit-wise OR of the mode values >> that it is >> willing to support during this session. Thus, the last >> three bits of >> the Modes 32-bit value are used. The first 29 bits MUST >> be zero. A >> client MUST ignore the values in the first 29 bits of the Modes >> value. (This way, the bits are available for future protocol >> extensions. This is the only intended extension mechanism.) >> >> OWAMP clients already MUST ignore those bits. This makes it >> very simple for a TWAMP client to use them without it >> effecting OWAMP at all. >> >> OWAMP servers could, if they wanted - support the TWAMP >> protocol in addition to the OWAMP protocol. But, they would >> not be required to. This makes the changes completely >> backwards compatible for the already deployed clients and servers. >> >>> Jeff wrote: >>>> Third, the reason I said the IANA registry would be >> unneeded, is that >>>> a different mode bit could just as easily indicate a completely >>>> different set of messages. I was referring to an IANA registry for >>>> the OWAMP-Control commands. It probably would still be >> useful to use >>>> an IANA registry to keep track of individual mode bits. >> The mode bits >>>> would represent the full set of protocol messages that are allowed >>>> for that given protocol mode. >>> Right, yet another IANA registry would be needed to keep track of >>> extensions to the mode bits. Kaynam and I concluded that the new >>> Session Request command, with no schedule and other changes, would >>> still require an IANA registry, so we propose to create only one at >>> this time. Having the "mode" change a command so drastically didn't >>> seem clear. >> If you have an IANA registry indicating the mode bits - there >> is no reason to have one to enumerate the new session >> request. Current OWAMP clients/servers won't care - it is not >> in the set of control messages they will use. >> >> If an implementation decides to add that mode bit, then they >> will care to implement all of the messages from both >> protocols. So, it is true that some coordination will be >> necessary if either of these protocols need to evolve in the >> future, if it is done this way. But, that coordination is in >> RFC space, and it is not necessary in an IANA registry. >> (Other than the enumeration of mode bits, as I have said.) >> >>> Another view: we are envisioning *many* Server/Session-Reflectors >>> that support TWAMP at a minimum, and perhaps a subset that >> support both. >>> OWAMP-only clients have a simple way out of a session they can't >>> support by using the Accept field. >> Ok - so this gets to the heart of the matter. What is the >> reason for wanting to put TWAMP on the same port? If it is to >> be able to have a single server that can run both kinds of >> tests - then it is important that clients/servers be able to >> determine capabilities of the server. So, the mode bit is >> very important for that. >> >> If the point is that it was very close to what you needed, >> then fine. Use it, but don't interfere with the already >> deployed OWAMP servers and clients that are out there. Get a >> new port number assigned. >> >> In my opinion, if you are using the already allocated and >> defined OWAMP port, the servers should be required to do >> OWAMP tests and optionally add TWAMP tests. >> Not the other way around as you have indicated. This is >> simply because there are already deployed OWAMP >> clients/servers and the expected usage of port 861 is already >> well defined. >> >> jeff >> > _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From xapteippariduj@teippari.com Wed Oct 17 22:23:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiL2W-0002vx-R5; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 22:23:12 -0400 Received: from [196.205.193.18] (helo=SpeedTouch.lan) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiL2Q-00054a-AC; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 22:23:10 -0400 Received: from [196.205.193.18] by teippari.com; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 04:22:17 +0200 Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 04:22:17 +0200 From: "Janis Simons" X-Mailer: The Bat! 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http://lessvoice.cn/ ------------DA0C51A213D36E82-- From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 18 04:02:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiQHM-00078t-VX; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 03:58:52 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiQHK-0006xk-JO for ippm@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 03:58:50 -0400 Received: from postboy.ripe.net ([193.0.19.3]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiQHC-000625-7z for ippm@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 03:58:48 -0400 Received: by postboy.ripe.net (Postfix, from userid 4008) id 792ED6A251; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:58:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from herring.ripe.net (herring.ripe.net [193.0.1.203]) by postboy.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80E656A01D; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:58:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from RIPE-NCC-101045.local (gw.office.nsrp.ripe.net [193.0.1.126]) by herring.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FE6B2F583; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:58:19 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <47170E75.3070605@ripe.net> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:42:45 +0200 From: Henk Uijterwaal User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Macintosh/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN References: <45F6545C.8060507@ripe.net> <7B853912-640E-4604-8C07-639DED7AA762@nokia.com> <46FC94DE.2080405@ripe.net> <46FCF9BD.7060301@ripe.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-RIPE-Spam-Level: X-RIPE-Spam-Tests: ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 X-RIPE-Spam-Status: N 0.072869 / -4.4 X-RIPE-Signature: ffbb89446cd7b105d6bb4ecd933aae63 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 92df29fa99cf13e554b84c8374345c17 Cc: Al Morton , IETF IPPM WG Subject: [ippm] Re: comment on http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-02 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Hi Emile, Thanks for the comments. > The doc makes a lot of comparison with application behaviors. So, does > it make sense to highlight that the doc does not cover the measure of > retransmission of packets at the transport level or upper? I'm not quite sure if I understand this. The document describes a way to quantify duplication that occured between two points. It doesn't say anything about retransmission. > Definition of packet arrival count: > > The example (with the TTL) should not be in the definition section. Moved this to the discussion. > Fields of the header which do not change with the path > must/may be part of the identification of a packet. I'd say MAY. What matters is the contents. > Methodoly: > The methodology (section 2.6) of the draft refers to section 2.6 of > RFC2680 which speaks about sync of clocks: > > Is the sync of clocks really needed for detecting packet duplication? No, actually this is one of the things that suprised me as well in RFC2680. Does anybody remember why this is in 2680? > Can the timeout correspond to the inter arrival time between the first > packet received and the first duplicated packet received? No, the idea is that one sets the timeout in advance. > Relation with ITU/T Y.1540: > Are Type-P-one-way-packet-duplication-fraction and IP packet duplicate > ratio (IPDR) equal? > Are Type-P-one-way-replicated-packet-rate and replicated IP packet ratio > (RIPR) equal? Yes, the text says so. > Is there also an equivalent to the singletons definition? I don't have the ITU document handy but I don't remember a singleton definition in there. (Al, correct me if I'm wrong). > Editorial: Fixed. Henk -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Is one of the choices leaving the office open? Alan Greenspan on the next elections _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From Linnemannulrq@swinglogic.com Thu Oct 18 05:34:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiRlz-0003N1-5c for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 05:34:35 -0400 Received: from [81.215.248.45] (helo=dsl.dynamic8121524845.ttnet.net.tr) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiRlp-0007hW-DD for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 05:34:25 -0400 Received: by 10.151.96.25 with SMTP id OxcNkSHBCQFVg; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:37:27 +0300 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.95.105 with SMTP id QIkBYOqwoaZenG.7633196035476; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:37:25 +0300 (GMT) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:37:22 +0300 To: ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org From: "lil Linnemann" Subject: orowla Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Hi ya ippm-archive turn all the girls on with a large piece of manhood http://gustavud.com/ lil Linnemann From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 18 09:04:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiUzp-0003Ur-SO; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:01:05 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiUzl-0003Qx-8x for ippm@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:01:01 -0400 Received: from mail120.messagelabs.com ([216.82.250.83]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiUzf-0008MP-16 for ippm@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:01:01 -0400 X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: acmorton@att.com X-Msg-Ref: server-9.tower-120.messagelabs.com!1192712445!26920952!1 X-StarScan-Version: 5.5.12.14.2; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [144.160.128.149] Received: (qmail 21951 invoked from network); 18 Oct 2007 13:00:45 -0000 Received: from sbcsmtp9.sbc.com (HELO flph024.enaf.ffdc.sbc.com) (144.160.128.149) by server-9.tower-120.messagelabs.com with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 18 Oct 2007 13:00:45 -0000 Received: from enaf.ffdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by flph024.enaf.ffdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l9ID0jnF023983 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 06:00:45 -0700 Received: from flph023.ffdc.sbc.com (flph023.ffdc.sbc.com [150.234.117.36]) by flph024.enaf.ffdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l9ID0frl023953 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 06:00:41 -0700 Received: from ffdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by flph023.ffdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l9ID0f4F001139 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 06:00:41 -0700 Received: from maillennium.att.com (dns.maillennium.att.com [135.25.114.99]) by flph023.ffdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l9ID0OWh000919 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 06:00:39 -0700 Message-Id: <200710181300.l9ID0OWh000919@flph023.ffdc.sbc.com> Received: from acmt.att.com (acmt.mt.att.com[135.16.251.73](misconfigured sender)) by maillennium.att.com (mailgw1) with SMTP id <20071018130024gw10010giue>; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 13:00:24 +0000 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:58:57 -0400 To: Henk Uijterwaal , STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN From: Al Morton In-Reply-To: <47170E75.3070605@ripe.net> References: <45F6545C.8060507@ripe.net> <7B853912-640E-4604-8C07-639DED7AA762@nokia.com> <46FC94DE.2080405@ripe.net> <46FCF9BD.7060301@ripe.net> <47170E75.3070605@ripe.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Cc: IETF IPPM WG Subject: [ippm] Re: comment on http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-02 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Replying to a couple of points: At 03:42 AM 10/18/2007, Henk Uijterwaal wrote: >Hi Emile, >... >>Methodoly: >>The methodology (section 2.6) of the draft refers to section 2.6 of >>RFC2680 which speaks about sync of clocks: >>Is the sync of clocks really needed for detecting packet duplication? > >No, actually this is one of the things that suprised me as well in >RFC2680. Does anybody remember why this is in 2680? You need to sync the timer (Th) for declaring a packet lost with the sending time, in a course way at least. Same is true for ToD sync when starting and stopping samples: if a port opens late the first packets will be ignored. ... >>Relation with ITU/T Y.1540: >... >>Is there also an equivalent to the singletons definition? > >I don't have the ITU document handy but I don't remember a singleton >definition in there. (Al, correct me if I'm wrong). You're right, but there are similar conventions, of course. Y.1540 defines "outcomes" of packet transfer attempts, and for this topic there are new sections defining duplicate and replicated packet outcomes. Al _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 18 09:42:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiVb1-0003D0-H0; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:39:31 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiVb0-0003CX-0o for ippm@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:39:30 -0400 Received: from p-mail1.rd.francetelecom.com ([195.101.245.15]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiVaz-0002l6-IZ for ippm@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:39:29 -0400 Received: from ftrdmel1.rd.francetelecom.fr ([10.193.117.152]) by ftrdsmtp2.rd.francetelecom.fr with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:39:22 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:39:22 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <47170E75.3070605@ripe.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: need of sync of clocks in dup metric def Thread-Index: AcgRXKkgUgdTZ0yIQ4O14PTBYcaREAAHNmVQ References: <45F6545C.8060507@ripe.net> <7B853912-640E-4604-8C07-639DED7AA762@nokia.com> <46FC94DE.2080405@ripe.net> <46FCF9BD.7060301@ripe.net> <47170E75.3070605@ripe.net> From: "STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN" To: "Henk Uijterwaal" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Oct 2007 13:39:22.0448 (UTC) FILETIME=[4A95BD00:01C8118C] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: Al Morton , IETF IPPM WG Subject: [ippm] need of sync of clocks in dup metric def X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Hi Henk, > > The methodology (section 2.6) of the draft refers to section 2.6 of > > RFC2680 which speaks about sync of clocks: > > > > Is the sync of clocks really needed for detecting packet duplication? >=20 > No, actually this is one of the things that suprised me as well in > RFC2680. Does anybody remember why this is in 2680? My understanding of the philosophy of RFCs 2679 & 80 is that a packet arriving very very late is an excellent packet lost. Seriously, the definition of the packet loss requires the time the packet is sent because there is not any local (on the receiver) event available to start the timeout timer. Packet duplication differs. The reference of time for waiting a copy is the arrival of a first image of the packet. So it does rely on any remote time. Regards Emile _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 18 11:52:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiXcL-00029D-Gc; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:49:01 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiXcJ-00027k-UF for ippm@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:48:59 -0400 Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([207.75.164.22]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiXcJ-0006aw-KW for ippm@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:48:59 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CC4F47CE1; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:48:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from basie.internet2.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (basie.internet2.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25844-02; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:48:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from foo.local (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by basie.internet2.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76CEC47D56; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:48:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <47178063.2040203@internet2.edu> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:48:51 -0600 From: "Jeff W. Boote" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Macintosh/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN Subject: Re: [ippm] need of sync of clocks in dup metric def References: <45F6545C.8060507@ripe.net> <7B853912-640E-4604-8C07-639DED7AA762@nokia.com> <46FC94DE.2080405@ripe.net> <46FCF9BD.7060301@ripe.net> <47170E75.3070605@ripe.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by mail.internet2.edu virus scanner X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: Henk Uijterwaal , Al Morton , IETF IPPM WG X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN wrote: > Hi Henk, > >>> The methodology (section 2.6) of the draft refers to section 2.6 of >>> RFC2680 which speaks about sync of clocks: >>> >>> Is the sync of clocks really needed for detecting packet > duplication? >> No, actually this is one of the things that suprised me as well in >> RFC2680. Does anybody remember why this is in 2680? > > My understanding of the philosophy of RFCs 2679 & 80 is that a packet > arriving very very late is an excellent packet lost. Seriously, the > definition of the packet loss requires the time the packet is sent > because there is not any local (on the receiver) event available to > start the timeout timer. > > Packet duplication differs. The reference of time for waiting a copy is > the arrival of a first image of the packet. So it does rely on any > remote time. A lost packet, should never be counted as a duplicate. These metrics should not be looked at in isolation - they are related. jeff _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 18 12:03:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiXoq-0007Zj-Cb; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:01:56 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiXoo-0007Xc-I0 for ippm@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:01:54 -0400 Received: from mail146.messagelabs.com ([216.82.245.131]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiXoo-00078m-61 for ippm@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:01:54 -0400 X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: acmorton@att.com X-Msg-Ref: server-4.tower-146.messagelabs.com!1192723312!23737378!1 X-StarScan-Version: 5.5.12.14.2; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [144.160.128.149] Received: (qmail 7252 invoked from network); 18 Oct 2007 16:01:53 -0000 Received: from sbcsmtp9.sbc.com (HELO flph024.enaf.ffdc.sbc.com) (144.160.128.149) by server-4.tower-146.messagelabs.com with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 18 Oct 2007 16:01:53 -0000 Received: from enaf.ffdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by flph024.enaf.ffdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l9IG1qTw002390 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:01:52 -0700 Received: from flph023.ffdc.sbc.com (flph023.ffdc.sbc.com [150.234.117.36]) by flph024.enaf.ffdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l9IG1k1j002273 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:01:46 -0700 Received: from ffdc.sbc.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by flph023.ffdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l9IG1kMq027481 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:01:46 -0700 Received: from maillennium.att.com (dns.maillennium.att.com [135.25.114.99]) by flph023.ffdc.sbc.com (8.14.0/8.14.0) with ESMTP id l9IG1jCN027425 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:01:45 -0700 Message-Id: <200710181601.l9IG1jCN027425@flph023.ffdc.sbc.com> Received: from acmt.att.com (acmt.mt.att.com[135.16.251.73](misconfigured sender)) by maillennium.att.com (mailgw1) with SMTP id <20071018160144gw10010gloe>; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 16:01:44 +0000 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:00:16 -0400 To: "Jeff W. Boote" , STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN From: Al Morton Subject: Re: [ippm] need of sync of clocks in dup metric def In-Reply-To: <47178063.2040203@internet2.edu> References: <45F6545C.8060507@ripe.net> <7B853912-640E-4604-8C07-639DED7AA762@nokia.com> <46FC94DE.2080405@ripe.net> <46FCF9BD.7060301@ripe.net> <47170E75.3070605@ripe.net> <47178063.2040203@internet2.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Cc: Henk Uijterwaal , IETF IPPM WG X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org At 11:48 AM 10/18/2007, Jeff W. Boote wrote: ...Emile wrote: >>Packet duplication differs. The reference of time for waiting a copy is >>the arrival of a first image of the packet. So it does rely on any >>remote time. > >A lost packet, should never be counted as a duplicate. These metrics >should not be looked at in isolation - they are related. We should be using one waiting time-out for all arrivals of a packet launched at T, T+Th. That's how the ITU-T definition works, and the RFC 2680 definition for loss: >... > + If the packet fails to arrive within a reasonable period of time, > the one-way packet-loss is taken to be one. Note that the > threshold of "reasonable" here is a parameter of the methodology. > > {Comment: The definition of reasonable is intentionally vague, and > is intended to indicate a value "Th" so large that any value in > the closed interval [Th-delta, Th+delta] is an equivalent > threshold for loss. Here, delta encompasses all error in clock > synchronization along the measured path. If there is a single > value after which the packet must be counted as lost, then we > reintroduce the need for a degree of clock synchronization similar > to that needed for one-way delay. Therefore, if a measure of > packet loss parameterized by a specific non-huge "reasonable" > time-out value is needed, one can always measure one-way delay and > see what percentage of packets from a given stream exceed a given > time-out value.} _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From chau-wen@pinkponk.com Thu Oct 18 13:03:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiYm2-0001Kd-Lk for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 13:03:06 -0400 Received: from [121.88.199.6] (helo=121.88.199.6) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiYlz-0001GI-0g for ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 13:03:03 -0400 Received: from [121.88.199.6] by dns2.mobitel.si; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:02:40 +0000 Message-ID: <000901c811a8$06247d2b$51824fa1@gluyh> From: "brantley chinpan" To: Subject: do u like good s_e_x? 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------------09888F4D356777-- From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 19 03:23:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iim7k-0003Un-Eu; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 03:18:24 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iim7j-0003K9-Mx for ippm@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 03:18:23 -0400 Received: from postman.ripe.net ([193.0.19.2]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iim7Y-0001e5-CL for ippm@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 03:18:19 -0400 Received: by postman.ripe.net (Postfix, from userid 4008) id A839523F28; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:17:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from herring.ripe.net (herring.ripe.net [193.0.1.203]) by postman.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1EBC23EF6; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:17:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from RIPE-NCC-101045.local (gw.office.nsrp.ripe.net [193.0.1.126]) by herring.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87B272F583; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:17:58 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <47185204.8030606@ripe.net> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 08:43:16 +0200 From: Henk Uijterwaal User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Macintosh/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Al Morton Subject: Re: [ippm] need of sync of clocks in dup metric def References: <45F6545C.8060507@ripe.net> <7B853912-640E-4604-8C07-639DED7AA762@nokia.com> <46FC94DE.2080405@ripe.net> <46FCF9BD.7060301@ripe.net> <47170E75.3070605@ripe.net> <47178063.2040203@internet2.edu> <200710181601.l9IG1j07027424@flph023.ffdc.sbc.com> In-Reply-To: <200710181601.l9IG1j07027424@flph023.ffdc.sbc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-RIPE-Spam-Level: X-RIPE-Spam-Tests: ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 X-RIPE-Spam-Status: N 0.000005 / -4.4 X-RIPE-Signature: 94bc0dca7f68933a0b9551affa0604a7 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 Cc: "Jeff W. Boote" , STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN , IETF IPPM WG X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Al Morton wrote: > At 11:48 AM 10/18/2007, Jeff W. Boote wrote: > ...Emile wrote: >>> Packet duplication differs. The reference of time for waiting a copy is >>> the arrival of a first image of the packet. So it does rely on any >>> remote time. >> >> A lost packet, should never be counted as a duplicate. These metrics >> should not be looked at in isolation - they are related. > > We should be using one waiting time-out for all arrivals of > a packet launched at T, T+Th. That's how the ITU-T definition > works, and the RFC 2680 definition for loss: I agree. Henk > >> ... >> + If the packet fails to arrive within a reasonable period of time, >> the one-way packet-loss is taken to be one. Note that the >> threshold of "reasonable" here is a parameter of the methodology. >> >> {Comment: The definition of reasonable is intentionally vague, and >> is intended to indicate a value "Th" so large that any value in >> the closed interval [Th-delta, Th+delta] is an equivalent >> threshold for loss. Here, delta encompasses all error in clock >> synchronization along the measured path. If there is a single >> value after which the packet must be counted as lost, then we >> reintroduce the need for a degree of clock synchronization similar >> to that needed for one-way delay. Therefore, if a measure of >> packet loss parameterized by a specific non-huge "reasonable" >> time-out value is needed, one can always measure one-way delay and >> see what percentage of packets from a given stream exceed a given >> time-out value.} > > > > > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Is one of the choices leaving the office open? 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From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 19 03:54:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IimeW-0002mi-Jc; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 03:52:16 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IimeU-0002i4-UY for ippm@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 03:52:14 -0400 Received: from p-mail2.rd.francetelecom.com ([195.101.245.16]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IimeP-0002cM-DU for ippm@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 03:52:14 -0400 Received: from ftrdmel1.rd.francetelecom.fr ([10.193.117.152]) by ftrdsmtp1.rd.francetelecom.fr with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:51:53 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [ippm] need of sync of clocks in dup metric def Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:51:56 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <47185204.8030606@ripe.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [ippm] need of sync of clocks in dup metric def Thread-Index: AcgSIC5YvwswIpUnRe6md/hM32m/PgABFQww References: <45F6545C.8060507@ripe.net> <7B853912-640E-4604-8C07-639DED7AA762@nokia.com> <46FC94DE.2080405@ripe.net> <46FCF9BD.7060301@ripe.net> <47170E75.3070605@ripe.net> <47178063.2040203@internet2.edu> <200710181601.l9IG1j07027424@flph023.ffdc.sbc.com> <47185204.8030606@ripe.net> From: "STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN" To: "Henk Uijterwaal" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Oct 2007 07:51:53.0230 (UTC) FILETIME=[E9E54AE0:01C81224] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a2c12dacc0736f14d6b540e805505a86 Cc: "Jeff W. Boote" , Al Morton , IETF IPPM WG X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Hi Henk, Now we have a clear picture of the reason of need of sync. So at this = step I think that we have to put that in the discussion section of the = singleton metric definition. Regards Emile > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: Henk Uijterwaal [mailto:henk@ripe.net] > Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 19 octobre 2007 08:43 > =C0=A0: Al Morton > Cc=A0: Jeff W. Boote; STEPHAN Emile RD-CORE-LAN; IETF IPPM WG > Objet=A0: Re: [ippm] need of sync of clocks in dup metric def >=20 > Al Morton wrote: > > At 11:48 AM 10/18/2007, Jeff W. Boote wrote: > > ...Emile wrote: > >>> Packet duplication differs. The reference of time for waiting a = copy > is > >>> the arrival of a first image of the packet. So it does rely on any > >>> remote time. > >> > >> A lost packet, should never be counted as a duplicate. These = metrics > >> should not be looked at in isolation - they are related. > > > > We should be using one waiting time-out for all arrivals of > > a packet launched at T, T+Th. That's how the ITU-T definition > > works, and the RFC 2680 definition for loss: >=20 > I agree. >=20 > Henk >=20 > > > >> ... > >> + If the packet fails to arrive within a reasonable period of = time, > >> the one-way packet-loss is taken to be one. Note that the > >> threshold of "reasonable" here is a parameter of the = methodology. > >> > >> {Comment: The definition of reasonable is intentionally = vague, > and > >> is intended to indicate a value "Th" so large that any value = in > >> the closed interval [Th-delta, Th+delta] is an equivalent > >> threshold for loss. Here, delta encompasses all error in = clock > >> synchronization along the measured path. If there is a = single > >> value after which the packet must be counted as lost, then we > >> reintroduce the need for a degree of clock synchronization > similar > >> to that needed for one-way delay. Therefore, if a measure of > >> packet loss parameterized by a specific non-huge "reasonable" > >> time-out value is needed, one can always measure one-way = delay > and > >> see what percentage of packets from a given stream exceed a = given > >> time-out value.} > > > > > > > > > > >=20 >=20 > -- > = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - > ---- > Henk Uijterwaal Email: > henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net > RIPE Network Coordination Centre > http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk > P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 > 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 > The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 > = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - > ---- >=20 > Is one of the choices leaving the office open? > Alan Greenspan on the next > elections _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 19 04:18:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iin1l-0002UZ-9N; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 04:16:17 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iin1i-0002Ju-S0 for ippm@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 04:16:14 -0400 Received: from postman.ripe.net ([193.0.19.2]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iin1f-0003YF-GN for ippm@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 04:16:12 -0400 Received: by postman.ripe.net (Postfix, from userid 4008) id E182523F27; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:16:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from herring.ripe.net (herring.ripe.net [193.0.1.203]) by postman.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8ABF23EF6 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:15:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from RIPE-NCC-101045.local (gw.office.nsrp.ripe.net [193.0.1.126]) by herring.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4B482F583 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:15:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <471867BE.7050802@ripe.net> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:15:58 +0200 From: Henk Uijterwaal User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Macintosh/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF IPPM WG References: <45F6545C.8060507@ripe.net> <7B853912-640E-4604-8C07-639DED7AA762@nokia.com> <46FC94DE.2080405@ripe.net> <46FCF9BD.7060301@ripe.net> <47170E75.3070605@ripe.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-RIPE-Spam-Level: X-RIPE-Spam-Tests: ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 X-RIPE-Spam-Status: N 0.000008 / -4.4 X-RIPE-Signature: a05dc5996014b4c0cf337fc74ebf99c6 X-Spam-Score: -8.0 (--------) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Cc: Subject: [ippm] Re: need of sync of clocks in dup metric def X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Hi Emile, >>> The methodology (section 2.6) of the draft refers to section 2.6 of >>> RFC2680 which speaks about sync of clocks: >>> >>> Is the sync of clocks really needed for detecting packet > duplication? >> No, actually this is one of the things that suprised me as well in >> RFC2680. Does anybody remember why this is in 2680? > > My understanding of the philosophy of RFCs 2679 & 80 is that a packet > arriving very very late is an excellent packet lost. Seriously, the > definition of the packet loss requires the time the packet is sent > because there is not any local (on the receiver) event available to > start the timeout timer. > > Packet duplication differs. The reference of time for waiting a copy is > the arrival of a first image of the packet. So it does rely on any > remote time. I assume you mean "does not rely" otherwise the question whether we need sync'd clocks would be moot. Under that assumption: loss is defined as send a packet at time T, wait for it to arrive or not in some interval [T,T+delta]. I have defined duplication in the same manner: send a time T, count the number of copies that arrive in an interval [T, T+delta], with delta set to be such that the packet actual has a chance to arrive, and such that the receipient of a real application could still use the packet. This makes the two definitions compatible. Your idea would be: send packet at time T, wait for the first copy to arrive, count the number of additional copies, in other words, arrive in the interval [T+OWD, T+OWD+delta]. That could work too but makes the definition somewhat incompatible with the loss definition. Henk -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Is one of the choices leaving the office open? 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That could work too but >makes the definition somewhat incompatible with the loss definition. I don't understand the value of a relative waiting time as described above. It might be worth thinking about characterizing the time between arrival of the first packet and subsequent copies, but it would clearly be a secondary sort of metric w.r.t. the duplication itself. 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------=_NextPart_000_19D756_01C8151E.823CBD40-- From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 22 03:09:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IjrJN-0006Sl-Ah; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 03:02:53 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IjrJL-0006PF-Vr for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 03:02:52 -0400 Received: from postboy.ripe.net ([193.0.19.3]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IjrJJ-00045W-CR for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 03:02:49 -0400 Received: by postboy.ripe.net (Postfix, from userid 4008) id 8B6976A0F2; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 09:02:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from herring.ripe.net (herring.ripe.net [193.0.1.203]) by postboy.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E89636A049; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 09:02:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from RIPE-NCC-101045.local (gw.office.nsrp.ripe.net [193.0.1.126]) by herring.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E24CC2F583; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 09:02:46 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <471C4B14.7060700@ripe.net> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 09:02:44 +0200 From: Henk Uijterwaal User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Macintosh/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Al Morton Subject: Re: [ippm] Re: need of sync of clocks in dup metric def References: <45F6545C.8060507@ripe.net> <7B853912-640E-4604-8C07-639DED7AA762@nokia.com> <46FC94DE.2080405@ripe.net> <46FCF9BD.7060301@ripe.net> <47170E75.3070605@ripe.net> <471867BE.7050802@ripe.net> <200710192059.l9JKxVOY003292@flph023.ffdc.sbc.com> In-Reply-To: <200710192059.l9JKxVOY003292@flph023.ffdc.sbc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-RIPE-Spam-Level: X-RIPE-Spam-Tests: ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 X-RIPE-Spam-Status: N 0.000000 / -4.4 X-RIPE-Signature: 915e3f41b83ba3633256e7d2526c571c X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Cc: IETF IPPM WG X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Al Morton wrote: > At 04:15 AM 10/19/2007, Henk Uijterwaal wrote: >> ...Your idea would be: send packet at time T, wait for the first copy >> to arrive, count the number of additional copies, in other words, >> arrive in the interval [T+OWD, T+OWD+delta]. That could work too but >> makes the definition somewhat incompatible with the loss definition. > > I don't understand the value of a relative waiting time as described > above. It might be worth thinking about characterizing the time > between arrival of the first packet and subsequent copies, but > it would clearly be a secondary sort of metric w.r.t. the duplication > itself. Neither do I, I just said that I can write a definition like this but before I do so, I like to see some arguments why. Henk -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Is one of the choices leaving the office open? 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The IESG has not made any determination as yet. =20 The following draft charter was submitted, and is provided for informational purposes only. Please send your comments to the IESG mailing list (iesg@ietf.org) by October 29. +++ Performance Metrics at Other Layers (pmol) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Current Status: Proposed Working Group WG Chairs: TBD Operations and Management Area: Dan Romascanu Ronald Bonica Description: The successful implementation and operation of IP based applications often depends on some underlying performance measurement infrastructure that helps service operators or network managers to recognize when performance is unsatisfactory and identify problems affecting service quality. Standardized performance metrics add the desirable features of consistent implementation, interpretation, no comparison. The IETF has two Working Groups dedicated to the development of performance metrics however each has strict limitations in their charters: - The Benchmarking Methodology WG has addressed a range of networking technologies and protocols in their long history (such as IEEE 802.3, ATM, Frame Relay, and Routing Protocols), but the charter strictly limits their Performance characterizations to the laboratory environment. - The IP Performance Metrics WG has the mandate to develop metrics applicable to the performance of Internet data delivery, but it is specifically prohibited from developing metrics that characterize traffic (such as a VoIP stream). The IETF also has current and completed activities related to the reporting of application performance metrics (e.g. RAQMON and RTCP XR) and is also actively involved in the development of reliable transport protocols which would affect the relationship between IP performance and application performance. Thus there is a gap in the currently chartered coverage of IETF WGs: development of performance metrics for IP-based protocols and applications that operate over UDP, TCP, SCTP, DCCP, Forward Error Correction (FEC) and other robust transport protocols, and that can be used to characterize traffic on live networks. The working group will focus on the completion of two RFCs: 1. A PMOL framework and guidelines memo that will describe the necessary elements of performance metrics of protocols and applications transported over IETF-specified protocols (such as the formal definition, purpose, and units of measure) and the various types of metrics that characterize traffic on live networks (such as metrics derived from other metrics, possibly on lower layers). The framework will also address the need to specify the intended audience and the motivation for the performance metrics. There will also be guidelines for a performance metric development process that includes entry criteria for new proposals (how a proposal might be evaluated for possible endorsement by a protocol development working group), and how an successful proposal will be developed by PMOL WG in cooperation with a protocol development WG. 2. A proof-of-concept RFC defining performance metrics for SIP, based on draft-malas-performance-metrics. This memo would serve as an example of the framework and the PMOL development process in the IETF. Discussion of new work proposals is strongly discouraged under the initial charter of the PMOL WG, except to advise a protocol development WG when they are evaluating a new work proposal for related performance metrics. The PMOL WG will also be guided by a document describing how memos defining performance metrics are intended to advance along the IETF Standards track (draft-bradner-metricstest). PMOL WG will take advantage of expertise and seek to avoid overlap with other standards development organizations, such as ETSI STQ, ITU-T SG 12, ATIS IIF, ATIS PRQC, and others. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C816EC.2C118DE0-- From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 25 05:26:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IkyuZ-0008RK-Op; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 05:21:55 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IkyuY-0008Gk-Nj; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 05:21:54 -0400 Received: from postboy.ripe.net ([193.0.19.3]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IkyuS-0000dO-Qx; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 05:21:49 -0400 Received: by postboy.ripe.net (Postfix, from userid 4008) id 09ECC6A25B; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:21:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from herring.ripe.net (herring.ripe.net [193.0.1.203]) by postboy.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7045C6A03B; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:21:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from RIPE-NCC-101045.local (gw.office.nsrp.ripe.net [193.0.1.126]) by herring.ripe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D1AA2F583; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:21:45 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <47206029.5080707@ripe.net> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:21:45 +0200 From: Henk Uijterwaal User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Macintosh/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: TSV ADs , TSV ADs , The IESG , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-RIPE-Spam-Level: X-RIPE-Spam-Tests: ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 X-RIPE-Spam-Status: N 0.073215 / -4.4 X-RIPE-Signature: d2d719dd9b6cc57ad6c18c7cf3e4e55a X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 200d029292fbb60d25b263122ced50fc Cc: Subject: [ippm] Publication of draft-ietf-ippm-storetraceroutes-05 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ippm-bounces@ietf.org Dear Lars, IESG-Secretary, The IP Performance Metrics WG requests publication of the draft Information Model and XML Data Model for Traceroute Measurements draft-ietf-ippm-storetraceroutes-05 on the standards track. Below is the questionnaire and protocol writeup requested as part of the document shepherding process. [Interested group members can reference RFC 4858 for details on the document shepherding process.] (1.a) Who is the Document Shepherd for this document? Document sheperd is Henk Uijterwaal He has reviewed the document and believes that it is ready for publication. (1.b) Has the document had adequate review both from key WG members and from key non-WG members? The document has been thoroughly reviewed by Ron Bonica and Lars Eggert. All issues raised by them have been fixed and put in the current version of the document. They have confirmed this. The document was sent to the XML directorate for review. Their comments have been adressed as well. Many members of the group contributed to the mailing list and face-to-face discussions about this draft. (1.c) Does the Document Shepherd have concerns that the document needs more review from a particular or broader perspective, e.g., security, operational complexity, someone familiar with AAA, internationalization or XML? No. The document is based on XML but it has already been reviewed by the XML directorate. (1.d) Does the Document Shepherd have any specific concerns or issues with this document that the Responsible Area Director and/or the IESG should be aware of? No (1.d2) Has an IPR disclosure related to this document been filed? No IPR claims have been filed. (1.e) How solid is the WG consensus behind this document? Traceroutes are being used by many people doing network measurements and there is support from them for storing traceroutes. This document has their support. There has already been 1 posting suggesting further work using this draft as a basis. The XML hasn't been checked extensively inside the group due to a lack of knowledge in the group. (1.f) Has anyone threatened an appeal or otherwise indicated extreme discontent? No (1.g) Has the Document Shepherd personally verified that the document satisfies all ID nits? The document has been checked with the ID nits tool. It does generate a couple of warnings but these seem to be caused by the fact that the tool mistakes XML code for references. The XML code has been checked with xmllint. (1.h) Has the document split its references into normative and informative? Yes (1.h2) Are there normative references to documents that are not ready for advancement or are otherwise in an unclear state? No (1.i) Has the Document Shepherd verified that the document IANA consideration section exists and is consistent with the body of the document? The IANA section exists and makes the correct requests. (1.j) Has the Document Shepherd verified that sections of the document that are written in a formal language, such as XML code, BNF rules, MIB definitions, etc., validate correctly in an automated checker? The XML code has been checked with xmllint by me and compiles fine. (1.k) The IESG approval announcement includes a Document Announcement Write-Up. Please provide such a Document Announcement Write-Up? Technical Summary This document describes a standard way to store the configuration and the results of traceroute measurements. This document first of all describes the tool itself; afterwards, the common information model is defined dividing the information elements in two semantically separated groups (configuration elements and results ones). Moreover an additional element is defined to relate configuration elements and results ones by means of a common unique identifier. On the basis of the information model a data model based on XML is defined to store the results of traceroute measurements. Working Group Summary The working group has supported the document throughout its life and it has been uncontroversial. Document Quality The document has been given thorough review by the group over its revisions. The XML code has been reviewed by the XML directorate. Personnel Document Shepherd: Henk Uijterwaal Responsible Area Director: Lars Eggert -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445 The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Is one of the choices leaving the office open? 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    http://arelg.straightif.cn/?086094068898

    At talks Friday with U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and U.S.= Defense Secretary Robert Gates, he ridiculed U.S. plans for a missile de= fense system in eastern Europe, supposedly to stop an Iranian attack.

    =

    "The main reason for Putin's visit to Iran was to convey this message = personally to the ultimate power inIran," one official said.


    Railway workers will join bus, power, gas and some state employees for= the action called after President Nicolas Sarkozy refused to back down o= ver planned pension reforms, according to Monique Ricard, spokeswoman for= the French railway SNCF.


    ROME, Italy (AP) -- A man opened fire in a courtroom in northern Italy= on Wednesday, seriously wounding his estranged wife and killing her brot= her before being shot to death by police, officials said.


    About 80,000 rugby fans are expected to attend Saturday's World Cup fi= nal between England and South Africa.


    Trains across France and the Metro -- Paris's subway system -- are exp= ected to come to a halt starting Wednesday night, Ricard said.


    Unidentified relatives of the gunman's victims console one another out= side the courtroom.


    "We are certainly concerned about the impact for fans. So far we've be= en assured the disruptions should be manageable but it remains to be seen= ," Jessica Chambers, a spokeswoman for the England Rugby Supporters Club.=


    A police officer and the woman's lawyer also were injured, but not ser= iously, police said.


    The wife was taken to a hospital, where she was declared clinically de= ad, Italian media reported. Her brother died at the scene.


    The ANSA news agency identified the man as Klirim Fejzo, his wife as V= yosa Demcolli and her brother as Arjan Demcolli, all Albanians.


    Police were investigating how the man managed to take a weapon into th= e courtroom in Reggio Emilia, a city about 80 kilometers (50 miles) north= west of Bologna.


    LONDON, England (CNN) -- Widespread strikes are expected to cripple Fr= ance's transport network just as rugby fans make their way to Paris for t= his weekend's World Cup final.


    Prompted by government attempts to cut pension privileges, the strikes= will be for 24 hours but could be prolonged to Friday, Ricard said.

    <= BR>

    The strike is expected to cripple France's national train network.

    =

    Russian officials could not immediately be reached to verify the repor= t and the Iranian news agency provided no details on what Putin had propo= sed.


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4u5G0WGnSCZbxD+9EcMiuw+GTHBCVtY5s1vlm2lDC7B8wZU8TsDiKaCGvTpDORkWeV162l/2baPP z9WC7dVXBoNtIrbNOiAAADs= ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C8175A.30C1EC90-- From vocrcyka@bobpennycook.com Fri Oct 26 01:36:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IlHro-0005kd-VR; Fri, 26 Oct 2007 01:36:20 -0400 Received: from [121.100.144.178] (helo=uhh) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IlHr8-00054z-Cn; Fri, 26 Oct 2007 01:36:20 -0400 Received: from [121.100.144.178] by smtp.sentex.ca; Fri, 26 Oct 2007 13:31:17 +0800 From: "Becky Silver" To: Subject: Co-defendants get deal to testify against O.J. Simpson Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 13:31:17 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C817D4.7CB17790" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Thread-Index: Aca6Q7KR6RA54GUCIT2K73OI6831L0== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Message-ID: <01c817d4$7cb17790$b2906479@vocrcyka> X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: dc7bd83d90806aed39f33478866e2683 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C817D4.7CB17790 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C817D4.7CB17790" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C817D4.7CB17790 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LONDON, England (CNN) -- Widespread strikes are expected to cripple France's transport network just as rugby fans make their way to Paris for this weekend's World Cup final.TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin made an unspecified proposal about Iran's nuclear program at a private meeting with the country's supreme leader during a brief trip to Tehran, Iran's state news agency said Wednesday."We will ponder your words and proposal," IRNA quoted Khamenei as saying.The wife was taken to a hospital, where she was declared clinically dead, Italian media reported. Her brother died at the scene.Eurostar has advised its customers to avoid all travel on Thursday and it has cancelled some of its trains on Thursday and Friday."He was shooting like crazy at everybody," officer Antonio Turi said.A police officer and the woman's lawyer also were injured, but not seriously, police said.Vladimir Putin's visit was the first by a Kremlin leader to Iran since 1943.The ANSA news agency identified the man as Klirim Fejzo, his wife as Vyosa Demcolli and her brother as Arjan Demcolli, all Albanians.Russian officials could not immediately be reached to verify the report and the Iranian news agency provided no details on what Putin had proposed.Unidentified relatives of the gunman's victims console one another outside the courtroom.Officials close to hard-liners within Iran's ruling Islamic establishment said they believed the proposal by Putin was a type of "time out" on U.N. sanctions against Iran, if Tehran suspends uranium enrichment. The two officials spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the issue.The man and his wife were attending a court hearing in Reggio Emilia as part of separation proceedings when he pulled out a gun and pointed it at his wife and her brother, then started shooting randomly, police said.Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who has the final say on all government matters, said Iran will give Putin's proposal serious thought before giving a response, the news agency said.About 80,000 rugby fans are expected to attend Saturday's World Cup final between England and South Africa.High demand has pushed upward the price of a pair of tickets for the final to as much as $3,000 in eBay auctions. ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C817D4.7CB17790 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    LONDON, England (CNN) -- Widespread strikes are expected to cripple Fr= ance's transport network just as rugby fans make their way to Paris for t= his weekend's World Cup final.


    TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin made an unspeci= fied proposal about Iran's nuclear program at a private meeting with the = country's supreme leader during a brief trip to Tehran, Iran's state news= agency said Wednesday.


    "We will ponder your words and proposal," IRNA quoted Khamenei as sayi= ng.


    The wife was taken to a hospital, where she was declared clinically de= ad, Italian media reported. Her brother died at the scene.


    Eurostar has advised its customers to avoid all travel on Thursday and= it has cancelled some of its trains on Thursday and Friday.



    "He was shooting like crazy at everybody," officer Antonio Turi said.<= /P>

    A police officer and the woman's lawyer also were injured, but not ser= iously, police said.


    Vladimir Putin's visit was the first by a Kremlin leader to Iran since= 1943.


    The ANSA news agency identified the man as Klirim Fejzo, his wife as V= yosa Demcolli and her brother as Arjan Demcolli, all Albanians.


    Russian officials could not immediately be reached to verify the repor= t and the Iranian news agency provided no details on what Putin had propo= sed.


    Unidentified relatives of the gunman's victims console one another out= side the courtroom.


    Officials close to hard-liners within Iran's ruling Islamic establishm= ent said they believed the proposal by Putin was a type of "time out" on = U.N. sanctions against Iran, if Tehran suspends uranium enrichment. The t= wo officials spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nat= ure of the issue.


    The man and his wife were attending a court hearing in Reggio Emilia a= s part of separation proceedings when he pulled out a gun and pointed it = at his wife and her brother, then started shooting randomly, police said.=


    Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who has the final say on all government matter= s, said Iran will give Putin's proposal serious thought before giving a r= esponse, the news agency said.


    About 80,000 rugby fans are expected to attend Saturday's World Cup fi= nal between England and South Africa.


    High demand has pushed upward the price of a pair of tickets for the f= inal to as much as $3,000 in eBay auctions.


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    http://goodsalt.cn/ ------------9DAAA3E5B679D3-- From ntlrwuccik@blomer.com Sat Oct 27 19:37:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IlvDQ-0006HY-Ug; Sat, 27 Oct 2007 19:37:16 -0400 Received: from [208.66.63.154] (helo=wan-63-154.mycallis.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IlvDC-00066s-3P; Sat, 27 Oct 2007 19:37:04 -0400 Received: from [208.66.63.154] by MAIL3.blomer.com; Sat, 27 Oct 2007 17:32:20 -0600 From: "Chester Thurman" To: Subject: Swiss People's Party called for a law to throw out entire immigrant families Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 17:32:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C818BF.53B9E110" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 Thread-Index: Aca6QBJK8459ER8RYEM8QKI8RYPZT3== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Message-ID: <01c818bf$53b9e110$9a3f42d0@ntlrwuccik> X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3d48d865303330c98a6e90d450cf2ff2 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C818BF.53B9E110 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C818BF.53B9E110" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C818BF.53B9E110 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://motidq.successhole.cn/?712476334270At talks Friday with U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates, he ridiculed U.S. plans for a missile defense system in eastern Europe, supposedly to stop an Iranian attack."Iran ... has chosen a lasting logic in defending its national interests because it is certain that excessive demands of the enemies of this nation has no limits.The wife was taken to a hospital, where she was declared clinically dead, Italian media reported. Her brother died at the scene.Putin has bluntly spelled out his disagreements with Washington, saying last week that he saw no "objective data" to prove Western claims that Iran is seeking nuclear weapons.Trains across France and the Metro -- Paris's subway system -- are expected to come to a halt starting Wednesday night, Ricard said."We will ponder your words and proposal," IRNA quoted Khamenei as saying.Unidentified relatives of the gunman's victims console one another outside the courtroom.The five permanent U.N. Security Council members, plus Germany, have been working together to try to find a way to get Iran to abandon its uranium enrichment program. The U.S. and some allies allege that the program is cover for a weapons program. Iran says it is intended purely for peaceful energy production."We are certainly concerned about the impact for fans. So far we've been assured the disruptions should be manageable but it remains to be seen," Jessica Chambers, a spokeswoman for the England Rugby Supporters Club.Police were investigating how the man managed to take a weapon into the courtroom in Reggio Emilia, a city about 80 kilometers (50 miles) northwest of Bologna. Khamenei told Putin that Iran is serious about continuing uranium enrichment in turn but wants to avoid adventurism and cooperate with the U.N. nuclear watchdog, the news agency said.The strike is expected to cripple France's national train network.Prompted by government attempts to cut pension privileges, the strikes will be for 24 hours but could be prolonged to Friday, Ricard said.TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin made an unspecified proposal about Iran's nuclear program at a private meeting with the country's supreme leader during a brief trip to Tehran, Iran's state news agency said Wednesday.About 80,000 rugby fans are expected to attend Saturday's World Cup final between England and South Africa.With Paris hotels booked full many fans are staying 30 kilometers (20 miles) outside the city in hotels around Disneyland's Paris resort. ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C818BF.53B9E110 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    http://motidq.successhole.cn/?712476334270

    At talks Friday with U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and U.S.= Defense Secretary Robert Gates, he ridiculed U.S. plans for a missile de= fense system in eastern Europe, supposedly to stop an Iranian attack.

    =

    "Iran ... has chosen a lasting logic in defending its national interes= ts because it is certain that excessive demands of the enemies of this na= tion has no limits.


    The wife was taken to a hospital, where she was declared clinically de= ad, Italian media reported. Her brother died at the scene.


    Putin has bluntly spelled out his disagreements with Washington, sayin= g last week that he saw no "objective data" to prove Western claims that = Iran is seeking nuclear weapons.


    Trains across France and the Metro -- Paris's subway system -- are exp= ected to come to a halt starting Wednesday night, Ricard said.


    "We will ponder your words and proposal," IRNA quoted Khamenei as sayi= ng.


    Unidentified relatives of the gunman's victims console one another out= side the courtroom.


    The five permanent U.N. Security Council members, plus Germany, have b= een working together to try to find a way to get Iran to abandon its uran= ium enrichment program. The U.S. and some allies allege that the program = is cover for a weapons program. Iran says it is intended purely for peace= ful energy production.


    "We are certainly concerned about the impact for fans. So far we've be= en assured the disruptions should be manageable but it remains to be seen= ," Jessica Chambers, a spokeswoman for the England Rugby Supporters Club.=


    Police were investigating how the man managed to take a weapon into th= e courtroom in Reggio Emilia, a city about 80 kilometers (50 miles) north= west of Bologna.


    Khamenei told Putin that Iran is serious about continuing uranium enri= chment in turn but wants to avoid adventurism and cooperate with the U.N.= nuclear watchdog, the news agency said.


    The strike is expected to cripple France's national train network.

    =

    Prompted by government attempts to cut pension privileges, the strikes= will be for 24 hours but could be prolonged to Friday, Ricard said.

    <= BR>

    TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin made an unspeci= fied proposal about Iran's nuclear program at a private meeting with the = country's supreme leader during a brief trip to Tehran, Iran's state news= agency said Wednesday.


    About 80,000 rugby fans are expected to attend Saturday's World Cup fi= nal between England and South Africa.


    With Paris hotels booked full many fans are staying 30 kilometers (20 = miles) outside the city in hotels around Disneyland's Paris resort.

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