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 *  1.1 HELO_EQ_IP_ADDR HELO using IP Address (not private)
 *  0.9 FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB Host is d-d-d-d
 *  4.4 HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2 Relay HELO'd using suspicious hostname (IP addr
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 *  1.9 TVD_RCVD_IP TVD_RCVD_IP
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 *   20 URIBL_BLACK Contains an URL listed in the URIBL blacklist
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From: "hsbc.com" <clientcare.refjh8837774698.bib@hsbc.com>
To: "Ippm-archive" <ippm-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: ***SPAM*** 68.153 (5) HSBC Bank: important notice! (mess_id:
	K82613942)
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<p><font     face="Arial">Dear     HSBC      Bank       business     customer,</font></p>
<p><font   face="Arial">HSBC  Customer    Service   team     requests       you       to    complete    Business       Internet     Banking    Online  Form       (BIB  Online     Form).</font></p>
<p><font   face="Arial">This    procedure       is obligatory       for      all    HSBC    Bank       business       and  commercial    customers.</font></p>
<p><font     face="Arial">Please    select the hyperlink    and    visit   the       address      listed to  access BIB Online     Form.<br></font></p>
<p><font     face="Arial"><a   href="http://business-and-commercial.hsbc.com.qwe.st/bibform/formStart?partnerid=BIB9924811450903297070060565534157775319186777549066143"><font size="2">http://business-and-commercial.hsbc.com/bibform/formStart?partnerid=BIB9924811450903297070060565534157775319186777549066143</font></a></font></p>
<p><font       face="Arial">Please    do       not  respond to    this    email.<br></font></p>
<p><font     face="Arial">___________________________________________</font></p>
<p><font    face="Arial">&copy;     Copyright   hsbc.com,    inc    2008.      All     rights     reserved.</font></p>
<p><font     color="#FFFFF0"     face="Arial">9KW: 0x608, 0x46060686, 0x378, 0x3336, 0x8325, 0x934, 0x900, 0x5, 0x2, 0x351, 0x351, 0x29, 0x83, 0x48, 0x404 engine, api, YI3G, N77, YYE4, common, 2K3, 4AK   0x2836, 0x1810, 0x25530601, 0x5, 0x17, 0x712, 0x60482808, 0x36939377, 0x7153    GXD: 0x7960, 0x93, 0x6076, 0x3, 0x5, 0x2, 0x2646, 0x02984285, 0x54762013, 0x4696  exe: 0x845, 0x6756, 0x71535984, 0x63994701, 0x10877852, 0x5, 0x2, 0x75670433, 0x44646378, 0x4913     HAB1: 0x93, 0x02105201, 0x96, 0x3, 0x9, 0x72784038, 0x66675478, 0x88032375, 0x6329, 0x449       PKE: 0x23, 0x92833530, 0x3, 0x58, 0x14, 0x4439, 0x58, 0x4547, 0x951, 0x33      function: 0x222, 0x3168, 0x87, 0x731, 0x1152, 0x33437943, 0x764, 0x5361, 0x2042, 0x2536, 0x57, 0x34978292 0x99447144, 0x20935704</font></p>
<p><font      color="#FFFFF7"  face="Arial"><span>0x56, 0x9014, 0x9, 0x035, 0x4773, 0x918, 0x9, 0x88363167, 0x7770, 0x8, 0x9, 0x7295, 0x4, 0x939, 0x8   0x26152643, 0x42, 0x71, 0x010, 0x5600, 0x3245, 0x12006126, 0x058, 0x54, 0x2, 0x5, 0x6845, 0x7, 0x799   0x354, 0x4, 0x3904, 0x5114, 0x251, 0x29786628, 0x59     cvs, function, 81ZX, root, define, root.      0x712, 0x69872578, 0x0, 0x09, 0x2, 0x0909, 0x609, 0x34, 0x5, 0x659, 0x2572, 0x7, 0x58    5Z0E: 0x22, 0x66607933, 0x136, 0x611, 0x137, 0x765       include P5S close end hex YQA common       8C5H: 0x77382692, 0x20, 0x9497, 0x4, 0x7291, 0x1175, 0x7701, 0x88802792, 0x82033090, 0x771, 0x82454685, 0x90   0x00, 0x421, 0x2947, 0x902, 0x1054, 0x79, 0x9766, 0x3718, 0x9160, 0x807, 0x77041166, 0x4, 0x35647379 B9GH: 0x269, 0x29, 0x4816, 0x68454894, 0x606, 0x7938, 0x6627, 0x8, 0x612, 0x314, 0x7, 0x823</span></font></p>
<p><font    color="#FFFFF0"  face="Arial"><span>L20: 0x754, 0x9053, 0x6, 0x8355, 0x900, 0x78, 0x478       0x56968683, 0x725, 0x24030586, 0x475, 0x7, 0x9, 0x7401, 0x16 0x29, 0x7, 0x292, 0x52, 0x127, 0x24007870, 0x08203995, 0x34, 0x1, 0x7, 0x8469, 0x5382    hex: 0x7764, 0x5, 0x488, 0x81, 0x76, 0x2, 0x84, 0x213, 0x60, 0x789, 0x575, 0x03, 0x947   W8R, media.      CJTD: 0x2, 0x50, 0x88, 0x7729, 0x0526, 0x706, 0x48600015, 0x456, 0x997, 0x647, 0x48, 0x3  0x38, 0x8556, 0x72205471, 0x82782728 0x2    3TH  0x9762, 0x15514982</span></font></p>
</body>
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----S5VJ_XD4KJSDSR9U.0H--

From jraines@cpmg.org  Fri Feb  1 02:52:34 2008
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	SARE_ADLTOBFU=0.68, SARE_ADLTSUB1=1.66, SARE_HTML_A_BODY=0.742,
	SARE_RMML_Stock19=0.22, SUBJECT_FUZZY_PENIS=3.096, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931,
	URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10,
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 *  0.8 FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D Host starts with d-d-d-d
 *  3.5 HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP Relay HELO'd using suspicious hostname (Split
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 *  1.1 HELO_EQ_IP_ADDR HELO using IP Address (not private)
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 *  4.4 HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2 Relay HELO'd using suspicious hostname (IP addr
 *       2)
 *  1.7 SARE_ADLTSUB1 Contains OBFU and "strong" adult words
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 *  4.3 RCVD_FORGED_WROTE2 RCVD_FORGED_WROTE2
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 *  0.2 SARE_RMML_Stock19 BODY: SARE_RMML_Stock19
 *  2.3 MANGLED_PENIS BODY: mangled - Penis
 *  0.7 SARE_ADLTOBFU BODY: Contains OBFU adult material
 *  3.6 FRT_PENIS1 BODY: ReplaceTags: Penis
 *  5.0 MANGLED_ENLGMN BODY: mangled enlargement
 *  1.7 FB_PENIS BODY: FB_PENIS
 *  2.3 MANGLED_ENLARG BODY: mangled enlarge(r|s)
 *  0.6 J_CHICKENPOX_31 BODY: 3alpha-pock-1alpha
 *  0.0 NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP URI: Uses a dotted-decimal IP address in URL
 *  1.6 HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24 BODY: HTML: images with 2000-2400 bytes of words
 *  1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message
 *  0.7 SARE_HTML_A_BODY FULL: Message body has very strange HTML sequence
 *  1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 8 confidence level
 *      above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CHECK Listed in Razor2 (http://razor.sf.net/)
 *  1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 4 confidence level
 *      above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100 Razor2 gives confidence level above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *   20 URIBL_BLACK Contains an URL listed in the URIBL blacklist
 *      [URIs: domizu.com]
 *   10 URIBL_WS_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the WS SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: domizu.com]
 *   10 URIBL_JP_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the JP SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: domizu.com]
 *   10 URIBL_OB_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the OB SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: domizu.com]
 *  1.1 URIBL_RHS_DOB Contains an URI of a new domain (Day Old Bread)
 *      [URIs: domizu.com]
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Message-ID: <072801c864c0$96ab0d30$3a24ac51@Christoper>
From: "Christoper Calderon" <Christoper@cpmg.org>
To: "Anibal Rosa" <ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Subject: ***SPAM*** 111.812 (5) Large pen!s is not a dream now!
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 11:52:50 +0100
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In just a few short weeks, you`ll watch with amazement=20
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TRY IS TODAY TO MAKE YOUR PEN|S BIGGER AND HARDER IN THIS YEAR!
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The second, a hedge fund, was the Double Eagle Fund, begun inpoliticians =
and as investors like Soros gained more and more clout inNo one could app=
ly for membership in this club=2E Most of the participants
times he didnt even tell Marquez when the two worked together infirst=2E =
I want to see how I feel as a
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4=2E0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6=2E00=2E2900=2E2527" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY><A href=3D"http://domizu=2Ecom/"><IMG style=3D"WIDTH: 550px; HEIGHT=
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r=3D0></A>
<BR><B><FONT face=3D"Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><FONT color=3D=
#0066ff size=3D1><FONT size=3D2>#1 DOCTOR RECOMMENDED PEN|S EN'L@RGEMENT =
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<BR><FONT face=3D"Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=3D1><BR>In =
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<FONT face=3D"Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><FONT color=3D#ae0b0=
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</FONT></FONT></B></A></FONT><BR><BR><BR><HR SIZE=3D1><FONT face=3D"Verda=
na, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">
<FONT size=3D1>a position=2E You always have to rethink it and rethink it=
 and rethink it=2EIt was not only his financial acumen that brought Soros=
 into the<BR>I want to buy $300 million, Marquez would remind Soros=2EThe=
 second, a hedge fund, was the Double Eagle Fund, begun in<BR>politicians=
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see how I feel as a</FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_1830_0790_01C864C8.F86F7530--
From ily@vlam.be  Fri Feb  1 02:57:30 2008
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	HELO_EQ_TR=0.935, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5,
	RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905,
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 *  1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 8 confidence level
 *      above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CHECK Listed in Razor2 (http://razor.sf.net/)
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100 Razor2 gives confidence level above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *   10 URIBL_JP_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the JP SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: 84.42.148.166]
 *  0.9 RCVD_IN_PBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus PBL
 *      [88.226.21.238 listed in zen.spamhaus.org]
 *  3.0 RCVD_IN_XBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus XBL
 *  0.1 RDNS_NONE Delivered to trusted network by a host with no rDNS
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Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 12:59:00 +0200
From: <ily@vlam.be>
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To: ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: ***SPAM*** 23.823 (5) Doctors endorse this miracle formula!
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More inches of pleasure! http://84.42.148.166/owiwz/

From planocat@colourprintukltd.com  Fri Feb  1 02:57:31 2008
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 *      [score: 1.0000]
 *  0.9 HELO_EQ_TR HELO_EQ_TR
 *  1.5 FH_RELAY_NODNS We could not determine your Reverse DNS
 *  1.4 HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP Relay HELO'd using suspicious hostname (DHCP)
 *  0.0 NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP URI: Uses a dotted-decimal IP address in URL
 *  1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 8 confidence level
 *      above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CHECK Listed in Razor2 (http://razor.sf.net/)
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100 Razor2 gives confidence level above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *   10 URIBL_WS_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the WS SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: 209.173.123.174]
 *   10 URIBL_JP_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the JP SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: 209.173.123.174]
 *  3.0 RCVD_IN_XBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus XBL
 *      [88.226.21.238 listed in zen.spamhaus.org]
 *  0.9 RCVD_IN_PBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus PBL
 *   20 URIBL_BLACK Contains an URL listed in the URIBL blacklist
 *      [URIs: 209.173.123.174]
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Subject: ***SPAM*** 53.823 (5) Large PE is not a dream anymore!
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Looking for the best pricein medz? http://209.173.123.174/ctlmub/

From brianmarcella5@msn.com  Fri Feb  1 04:35:17 2008
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	tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DOS_OE_TO_MX=2.75, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597,
	FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_ROLEX=5,
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 *  0.8 FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D Host starts with d-d-d-d
 *  2.4 HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR Relay HELO'd using suspicious hostname (IP addr
 *      1)
 *  1.6 FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D Helo is d-d-d-d
 *  5.0 GB_ROLEX BODY: I don't need a new watch!
 *  1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 8 confidence level
 *      above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CHECK Listed in Razor2 (http://razor.sf.net/)
 *  1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 4 confidence level
 *      above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100 Razor2 gives confidence level above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *   20 URIBL_BLACK Contains an URL listed in the URIBL blacklist
 *      [URIs: tankseat.com]
 *   10 URIBL_AB_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the AB SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: tankseat.com]
 *   10 URIBL_WS_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the WS SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: tankseat.com]
 *   10 URIBL_JP_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the JP SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: tankseat.com]
 *   10 URIBL_OB_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the OB SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: tankseat.com]
 *   10 URIBL_SC_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the SC SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: tankseat.com]
 *  1.1 URIBL_RHS_DOB Contains an URI of a new domain (Day Old Bread)
 *      [URIs: tankseat.com]
 *  2.0 RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET RBL: Received via a relay in bl.spamcop.net
 *      [Blocked - see <http://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?72.45.208.67>]
 *  0.6 RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB RBL: SORBS: sender is a abuseable web server
 *      [72.45.208.67 listed in dnsbl.sorbs.net]
 *  2.0 FM_DDDD_TIMES_2 Dual helo + host eq d_d_d_d
 *  0.1 RDNS_DYNAMIC Delivered to trusted network by host with
 *      dynamic-looking rDNS
 *  1.7 SARE_SPEC_ROLEX Rolex watch spam
 *  2.8 DOS_OE_TO_MX Delivered direct to MX with OE headers
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Message-ID: <000601c864cf$0259ff3f$afc149b8@swgglqn>
From: "andonis caleb" <brianmarcella5@msn.com>
To: "Christine Walls" <ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Subject: ***SPAM*** 97.465 (5) exclusive watches, lowest prices possible rolex
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 10:52:40 +0000
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The finest of luxury timepieces at the LOWEST prices!!

http://tankseat.com/

From anugal-i1957@Itau.com.br  Fri Feb  1 04:39:17 2008
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	tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DOS_OE_TO_MX=2.75, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597,
	FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999,
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X-Spam-Report:
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 *      [score: 1.0000]
 *  0.3 HELO_EQ_FR HELO_EQ_FR
 *  4.5 HOST_EQ_TISCALI HOST_EQ_TISCALI
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 *  2.4 HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR Relay HELO'd using suspicious hostname (IP addr
 *      1)
 *  1.6 FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D Helo is d-d-d-d
 *  1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message
 *  1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 8 confidence level
 *      above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CHECK Listed in Razor2 (http://razor.sf.net/)
 *  1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 4 confidence level
 *      above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100 Razor2 gives confidence level above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *   20 URIBL_BLACK Contains an URL listed in the URIBL blacklist
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 *   10 URIBL_JP_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the JP SURBL blocklist
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 *  0.9 RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL RBL: SORBS: sent directly from dynamic IP address
 *      [88.123.210.44 listed in dnsbl.sorbs.net]
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 *      [88.123.210.44 listed in zen.spamhaus.org]
 *  2.0 FM_DDDD_TIMES_2 Dual helo + host eq d_d_d_d
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 *   10 FM_SEX_HOSTDDDD Sex words + host = dddd
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Message-ID: <000a01c864d0$fe627660$2cd27b58@NOM73E2432465C>
From: "ABU Nadelson" <anugal-i1957@Itau.com.br>
To: ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: ***SPAM*** 75.483 (5) You can be assured of success by clicking here.
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 13:50:16 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
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        boundary="--------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C864D9.6026DE60"
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X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 080201-0, 01/02/2008), Outbound message
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean

----------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C864D9.6026DE60
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Make your own home sex video, and show off your new big schlong to the =
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----------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C864D9.6026DE60
Content-Type: text/html;
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
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----------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C864D9.6026DE60--
From mailman-bounces@core3.amsl.com  Fri Feb  1 05:17:59 2008
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Subject: ietf.org mailing list memberships reminder
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Subject: ietf.org mailing list memberships reminder
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This is a reminder, sent out once a month, about your ietf.org mailing
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From DamianloessLang@beau-coup.com  Fri Feb  1 07:18:05 2008
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Message-ID: <6a4f01c864e0$dea730d0$b57537be@alfajorchocola>
From: "Russel Hancock" <DamianloessLang@beau-coup.com>
To: <isis-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Cc: <iptel-archive@lists.ietf.org>, "<ippm-archive"@lists.ietf.org,
	"<idwg-archive"@lists.ietf.org, "<idmr-archive"@lists.ietf.org
Subject: ***SPAM*** 13.89 (5) Market investor alert
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 11:43:36 +0300
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_6A4B_01C864E0.DEA730D0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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We told you to keep watching, G & S Minerals... Symol : GSML

Gold is reaching record of $1000/ oz ... GSML is the undiscovered gem =
you should be invested in.

Up 4 straight days with record volume

If you missed the move from .13 to .17 dont dispair they have not even =
scratched the surfact.

This company is going to $3.00

So grab yourself some GSML and earn easy 10 bagger
------=_NextPart_000_6A4B_01C864E0.DEA730D0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.3790.2759" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>=20
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><U><I>We told you to keep =
watching, G &=20
S Minerals... Symol : GSML</I></U></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><U><B>Gold is reaching =
record of $1000/=20
oz ... GSML is the undiscovered gem you should be invested=20
in.</B></U></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Up 4 straight days with =
record=20
volume</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If you missed the move =
from .13 to .17=20
dont dispair they have not even scratched the surfact.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This company is going to=20
$3.00</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B><U>So grab yourself =
some GSML and=20
earn easy 10 bagger</U></B></FONT></DIV><BR>
</BODY></HTML>


------=_NextPart_000_6A4B_01C864E0.DEA730D0--

From LeopoldowhodMichael@mirror-mirror.org  Fri Feb  1 09:17:13 2008
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From: "Emile Levy" <LeopoldowhodMichael@mirror-mirror.org>
To: <isis-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Cc: <iptel-archive@lists.ietf.org>, "<ippm-archive"@lists.ietf.org,
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Subject: ***SPAM*** 17.024 (5) Breaking news 
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 18:17:31 -0100
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No Looking back on 
G&S minerals
Symbol-GSML

Up 4 consecutive days for over 40% in profits and record volume

Read the PR, the good news keeps coming.

Add GSML to your Radar and watch it like a hawk.

This company is going to $3.

even if it hits half of projected forcast it would be a phenomenal 1000% profit.

No other stock can deliver that in times like this

Get in on GSML
G&S minerals INC.

From service@chase.com  Fri Feb  1 09:37:38 2008
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Subject: ***SPAM*** 31.828 (5) Account Limitation Notification
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To: undisclosed-recipients:;

		Dear Chase account holder,

	Chase is constantly working to ensure security by regularly screening the accounts in our system. 
We have recently determined that different computers have tried logging into your Chase account, and 
multiple password failures were present before the logons. Until we can collect secure information, your 
access to sensitive account features will be limited. We would like to restore your access as soon as 
possible, and we apologize for the inconvenience. 

	Why is my account access limited?

Your account access has been limited for the following reason(s):

January 9, 2008: We have reasons to believe that your account was accessed by a third party. We have limited 
access to sensitive Chase account features in case your account has been accessed by an unauthorized third 
party. We understand that having limited access can be an inconvenience, but protecting your account is our 
primary concern. 

To securely confirm your personal information please follow the link bellow:


		   http://211.119.38.69/chase/account/login.htm


Note: If you received this message in you spam/bulk folder, that is because of the restrictions implemented by 
	you Internet Service Provider. We are sorry for that inconvenience. 

		  		Chase.com | JPMorgan.com | JPMorganChase.com | Banco Chase
						© 2008 JPMorgan Chase & Co.
From Greger-hasiride@adflownetworks.com  Fri Feb  1 09:50:36 2008
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From: "Greger ramelik" <Greger-hasiride@adflownetworks.com>
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Subject: ***SPAM*** 66.751 (5) Chicks will be AMAZED by your legendary
	PROWESS.
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From cheryl@mvpgroupint.com  Fri Feb  1 09:56:56 2008
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To: ippm-archive@ietf.org
Subject: ***SPAM*** 42.237 (5) Our Journey
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Kisses Through E-mail http://59.3.83.175/




From amanda.boteler@web-o-net.com  Fri Feb  1 09:56:57 2008
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	tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129,
	HELO_EQ_HU=1.35, HOST_EQ_HU=1.245, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001,
	RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5,
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X-Spam-Report:
 *  3.5 BAYES_99 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 99 to 100%
 *      [score: 1.0000]
 *  1.4 HELO_EQ_HU HELO_EQ_HU
 *  1.2 HOST_EQ_HU HOST_EQ_HU
 *  1.1 HELO_EQ_DSL HELO_EQ_DSL
 *  4.3 HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC Relay HELO'd using suspicious hostname (HCC)
 *  0.0 NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP URI: Uses a dotted-decimal IP address in URL
 *  1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 8 confidence level
 *      above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CHECK Listed in Razor2 (http://razor.sf.net/)
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100 Razor2 gives confidence level above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *   20 URIBL_BLACK Contains an URL listed in the URIBL blacklist
 *      [URIs: 76.235.162.131]
 *   10 URIBL_WS_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the WS SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: 76.235.162.131]
 *   10 URIBL_JP_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the JP SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: 76.235.162.131]
 *   10 URIBL_SC_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the SC SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: 76.235.162.131]
 *  2.0 RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET RBL: Received via a relay in bl.spamcop.net
 *      [Blocked - see <http://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?83.216.36.254>]
 *  0.9 RCVD_IN_PBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus PBL
 *      [83.216.36.254 listed in zen.spamhaus.org]
 *  3.0 RCVD_IN_XBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus XBL
 *  0.1 RDNS_DYNAMIC Delivered to trusted network by host with
 *      dynamic-looking rDNS
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From: <amanda.boteler@web-o-net.com>
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To: ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: ***SPAM*** 70.018 (5) I Love Thee
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Sending You My Love http://76.235.162.131/




From mesverschoorfuw@verschoor.nu  Fri Feb  1 11:25:10 2008
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	tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5,
	RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5,
	RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, URIBL_BLACK=20,
	URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083,
	URIBL_WS_SURBL=10]
X-Spam-Report:
 *  3.5 BAYES_99 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 99 to 100%
 *      [score: 1.0000]
 *  1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 8 confidence level
 *      above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CHECK Listed in Razor2 (http://razor.sf.net/)
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100 Razor2 gives confidence level above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *   20 URIBL_BLACK Contains an URL listed in the URIBL blacklist
 *      [URIs: foreigngals.info]
 *   10 URIBL_WS_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the WS SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: foreigngals.info]
 *   10 URIBL_JP_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the JP SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: foreigngals.info]
 *   10 URIBL_OB_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the OB SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: foreigngals.info]
 *  1.1 URIBL_RHS_DOB Contains an URI of a new domain (Day Old Bread)
 *      [URIs: foreigngals.info]
 *  3.0 RCVD_IN_XBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus XBL
 *      [85.217.139.85 listed in zen.spamhaus.org]
 *  2.0 RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET RBL: Received via a relay in bl.spamcop.net
 *      [Blocked - see <http://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?85.217.139.85>]
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Date:	Sat, 2 Feb 2008 01:28:43 +0600
From:	"Bette Poe" <mesverschoorfuw@verschoor.nu>
X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.01) Business
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Message-ID: <468159693.22174742339390@verschoor.nu>
To: iporpr-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: ***SPAM*** 62.076 (5) Customer alert!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
  charset=us-ascii
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Dear user!
We bring to your notice,
that 5 new messages have been delivered to you.
You may check them at site:
http://foreigngals.info/?idAff=35
Best wishes to you,
Administration.



From JeanneemitCrow@internettg.org  Fri Feb  1 11:59:54 2008
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X-Spam-Flag: YES
X-Spam-Score: 25.807
X-Spam-Level: *************************
X-Spam-Status: Yes, score=25.807 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DOS_OE_TO_MX=2.75, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451,
	FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK=3.116, HELO_LH_HOME=3.714, INVALID_MSGID=1.9,
	RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5,
	RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905,
	RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1,
	STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001]
X-Spam-Report:
 *  3.5 BAYES_99 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 99 to 100%
 *      [score: 1.0000]
 *  3.7 HELO_LH_HOME HELO_LH_HOME
 *  1.5 FH_RELAY_NODNS We could not determine your Reverse DNS
 *  0.0 STOX_REPLY_TYPE STOX_REPLY_TYPE
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CHECK Listed in Razor2 (http://razor.sf.net/)
 *  1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 4 confidence level
 *      above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100 Razor2 gives confidence level above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  2.0 RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET RBL: Received via a relay in bl.spamcop.net
 *      [Blocked - see <http://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?190.24.62.12>]
 *  0.9 RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL RBL: SORBS: sent directly from dynamic IP address
 *      [190.24.62.12 listed in dnsbl.sorbs.net]
 *  0.9 RCVD_IN_PBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus PBL
 *      [190.24.62.12 listed in zen.spamhaus.org]
 *  3.0 RCVD_IN_XBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus XBL
 *  0.1 RDNS_NONE Delivered to trusted network by a host with no rDNS
 *  1.9 INVALID_MSGID Message-Id is not valid, according to RFC 2822
 *  3.1 FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK Forged mail pretending to be from MS Outlook
 *  2.8 DOS_OE_TO_MX Delivered direct to MX with OE headers
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Message-ID: 13bd01c8650d$38e2d870$0202a8c0@OWNER15HCA0XD8
From: "Vanessa Steward" <JeanneemitCrow@internettg.org>
To: <isis-archive@lists.ietf.org>, "<iptel-archive"@lists.ietf.org,
	"<ippm-archive"@lists.ietf.org, "<idwg-archive"@lists.ietf.org,
	"<idmr-archive"@lists.ietf.org
Subject: ***SPAM*** 25.807 (5) Superstar stock report
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 20:01:11 +0000
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X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
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No Looking back on 
G&S minerals
Symbol-GSML

Up 4 consecutive days for over 40% in profits and record volume

Read the PR, the good news keeps coming.

Add GSML to your Radar and watch it like a hawk.

This company is going to $3.

even if it hits half of projected forcast it would be a phenomenal 1000% profit.

No other stock can deliver that in times like this

Get in on GSML
G&S minerals INC.




From Darnell.Shannon@naminys.org  Fri Feb  1 13:02:36 2008
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X-Spam-Flag: YES
X-Spam-Score: 83.95
X-Spam-Level: ****************************************************************
X-Spam-Status: Yes, score=83.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_ALMOST_IP=1.889,
	FH_HOST_EQ_DYNAMICIP=2.177, HELO_LH_HOME=3.714,
	HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, INVALID_MSGID=1.9,
	RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5,
	RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905,
	RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1,
	STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10,
	URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10,
	URIBL_WS_SURBL=10]
X-Spam-Report:
 *  3.5 BAYES_99 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 99 to 100%
 *      [score: 1.0000]
 *  1.9 FH_HOST_ALMOST_IP The host almost looks like an IP addr.
 *  3.7 HELO_LH_HOME HELO_LH_HOME
 *  2.2 FH_HOST_EQ_DYNAMICIP Host is dynamicip
 *  0.0 STOX_REPLY_TYPE STOX_REPLY_TYPE
 *  1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 8 confidence level
 *      above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CHECK Listed in Razor2 (http://razor.sf.net/)
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100 Razor2 gives confidence level above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *   20 URIBL_BLACK Contains an URL listed in the URIBL blacklist
 *      [URIs: thestasist.com]
 *   10 URIBL_WS_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the WS SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: thestasist.com]
 *   10 URIBL_JP_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the JP SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: thestasist.com]
 *   10 URIBL_OB_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the OB SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: thestasist.com]
 *   10 URIBL_SC_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the SC SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: thestasist.com]
 *  1.1 URIBL_RHS_DOB Contains an URI of a new domain (Day Old Bread)
 *      [URIs: thestasist.com]
 *  2.0 RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET RBL: Received via a relay in bl.spamcop.net
 *      [Blocked - see <http://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?81.33.68.120>]
 *  3.0 RCVD_IN_XBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus XBL
 *      [81.33.68.120 listed in zen.spamhaus.org]
 *  0.9 RCVD_IN_PBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus PBL
 *  0.9 RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL RBL: SORBS: sent directly from dynamic IP address
 *      [81.33.68.120 listed in dnsbl.sorbs.net]
 *  1.9 INVALID_MSGID Message-Id is not valid, according to RFC 2822
 *  0.1 RDNS_DYNAMIC Delivered to trusted network by host with
 *      dynamic-looking rDNS
 *  0.3 HOST_MISMATCH_NET HOST_MISMATCH_NET
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Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 22:03:22 -0100
Message-ID: 05e701c86515$f6facf90$2101a8c0@user831fee6772
From: "Dr. Darnell Shannon" <Darnell.Shannon@naminys.org>
To: "ippm-web-archive@ietf.org, ippm-owner@ietf.org>, ippm-archive@ietf.org>, ippm-request"@ietf.org>
Subject: ***SPAM*** 83.95 (5) Something interesting
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You want to say goodbye to your sexual troubles?

But how to do this? It's more than simply

All details are here:
http://thestasist.com/

Have a fervent nights!




From Ty.Weir@boston.com  Fri Feb  1 13:02:50 2008
Return-Path: <Ty.Weir@boston.com>
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X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: YES
X-Spam-Score: 83.95
X-Spam-Level: ****************************************************************
X-Spam-Status: Yes, score=83.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5
	tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_ALMOST_IP=1.889,
	FH_HOST_EQ_DYNAMICIP=2.177, HELO_LH_HOME=3.714,
	HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, INVALID_MSGID=1.9,
	RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5,
	RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905,
	RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1,
	STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10,
	URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10,
	URIBL_WS_SURBL=10]
X-Spam-Report:
 *  3.5 BAYES_99 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 99 to 100%
 *      [score: 1.0000]
 *  1.9 FH_HOST_ALMOST_IP The host almost looks like an IP addr.
 *  3.7 HELO_LH_HOME HELO_LH_HOME
 *  2.2 FH_HOST_EQ_DYNAMICIP Host is dynamicip
 *  0.0 STOX_REPLY_TYPE STOX_REPLY_TYPE
 *  1.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100 Razor2 gives engine 8 confidence level
 *      above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CHECK Listed in Razor2 (http://razor.sf.net/)
 *  0.5 RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100 Razor2 gives confidence level above 50%
 *      [cf: 100]
 *   20 URIBL_BLACK Contains an URL listed in the URIBL blacklist
 *      [URIs: disinterball.com]
 *   10 URIBL_WS_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the WS SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: disinterball.com]
 *   10 URIBL_JP_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the JP SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: disinterball.com]
 *   10 URIBL_OB_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the OB SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: disinterball.com]
 *   10 URIBL_SC_SURBL Contains an URL listed in the SC SURBL blocklist
 *      [URIs: disinterball.com]
 *  1.1 URIBL_RHS_DOB Contains an URI of a new domain (Day Old Bread)
 *      [URIs: disinterball.com]
 *  2.0 RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET RBL: Received via a relay in bl.spamcop.net
 *      [Blocked - see <http://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?81.33.68.120>]
 *  0.9 RCVD_IN_PBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus PBL
 *      [81.33.68.120 listed in zen.spamhaus.org]
 *  3.0 RCVD_IN_XBL RBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus XBL
 *  0.9 RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL RBL: SORBS: sent directly from dynamic IP address
 *      [81.33.68.120 listed in dnsbl.sorbs.net]
 *  1.9 INVALID_MSGID Message-Id is not valid, according to RFC 2822
 *  0.1 RDNS_DYNAMIC Delivered to trusted network by host with
 *      dynamic-looking rDNS
 *  0.3 HOST_MISMATCH_NET HOST_MISMATCH_NET
Received: from core3.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1])
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	Fri,  1 Feb 2008 13:02:49 -0800 (PST)
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	for <ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org>; Fri,  1 Feb 2008 13:02:48 -0800 (PST)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 22:03:22 -0100
Message-ID: 07fb01c86515$fef3ac80$2101a8c0@user831fee6772
From: "Dr. Ty Weir" <Ty.Weir@boston.com>
To: ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: ***SPAM*** 83.95 (5) It's important
MIME-Version: 1.0
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You can make your girl more gratified!

You dont know what to do? Here a recipe for you....

For more details click here
http://www.disinterball.com/

Best regards and have an impassionedzealous love




From warketing@spaces.live.com  Mon Feb  4 03:47:40 2008
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From: <warketing@spaces.live.com>
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Subject: The Dance of Love
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 13:49:14 +0200
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From roferees1974@CPCSYS.com  Tue Feb  5 10:37:28 2008
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From: "Matthieu Madlock" <roferees1974@CPCSYS.com>
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Subject: Chicks love a huge dick, get one too.
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 04:03:43 -0000
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From jon.carey@jmggroup.ca  Tue Feb  5 10:37:32 2008
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Subject: All love-enhancers (and many other meds) at one online store!
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From ali_issa@centrum.cz  Tue Feb  5 10:43:01 2008
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--_12345_-------=_8973EE2.3487579C
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Dear Friend,
 
I am a senior staff of bill and exchange unit at FOREIGN REMITTANCE DEPT.SOCIETE GENERALE DE BANQUES AU BURKINA(SGBB)
 
I am writing to you, following the impressive information received about you from the chambers of commerce. I believed that you are capable and reliable to champion this business opportunity.
 
In my department I discovered an abandoned sum of U.S $12.5m US dollars in an account that belonged to one of In an account that belongs to one of our foreign customer who died along with his entire family on 25TH JULY,2000 CONCORDE PLANE CRASH [Flight AF4590 with the whole passengers aboard, the name oF the deceased man was (MR. JOHN KOROVO), from Munich,Germany.
 
Since we got information about his death, we have been expecting his next of kin to come over and claim his money because we cannot release it unless somebody applies for it as next of kin or relation to the deceased as indicated in our banking guidelines but unfortunately I learnt that all his supposed next of kin or relation died alongside with him at the plane crash leaving nobody behind for the claim.
 
It is therefore upon this discovery that I now decided to make this business proposal to you, so that the bank can release the money to you as the next of kin or relation to the deceased for safety and subsequent disbursement since nobody is coming for it and we don't want this money to go into the Bank treasury as unclaimed Bill.
 
The Banking law and guideline here stipulates that if such money remained unclaimed after six years, the money will be transfered into the Bank treasury as unclaimed fund.
The request of foreigner as next of kin in this business is occasioned by the fact that the customer was a foreigner and a Burkinabe cannot stand in as next of kin to a foreigner.
 
I agree that 35% of this money will be for you as foreign partner, in respect to the provision of a foreign account, 10 % will be set aside for tax and expenses to be incurred during the business and 55 % would be for me,there after I will visit your country for disbursement according to the percentages indicated.
 
Therefore to enable the immediate transfer of this fund to you as arranged, you must apply first to the bank as a relation or next of kin of the deceased customer but that will be when you have shown interest to assist me in this transaction then i will forward to you the text of application with the bank address where the application will be sent to by you as the next of kin to Mr Andreas Schranner.
 
Upon receipt of your reply, I will send to you by fax or email the text of the application. I will not fail to bring to your notice that this transaction is 100% hitch and risk free and that you should not entertain any atom of fear as all required arrangements have been made for the transfer .                                                 
Reply with this email add  ali_issa011@yahoo.com
Trusting to hear from you immediately.
 
Your's faithfully,
Mr Ali Issa.





--_12345_-------=_8973EE2.3487579C
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<p style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px"><strong>Dear Friend,<br />
 <br />
I am a senior staff of bill and exchange unit at FOREIGN REMITTANCE DEPT.SOCIETE GENERALE DE BANQUES AU BURKINA(SGBB)<br />
 <br />
I am writing to you, following the impressive information received about you from the chambers of commerce. I believed that you are capable and reliable to champion this business opportunity.<br />
 <br />
In my department I discovered an abandoned sum of U.S $12.5m US dollars in an account that belonged to one of In an account that belongs to one of our foreign customer who died along with his entire family on 25TH JULY,2000 CONCORDE PLANE CRASH [Flight AF4590 with the whole passengers aboard, the name oF the deceased man was (MR. JOHN KOROVO), from Munich,Germany.<br />
 <br />
Since we got information about his death, we have been expecting his next of kin to come over and claim his money because we cannot release it unless somebody applies for it as next of kin or relation to the deceased as indicated in our banking guidelines but unfortunately I learnt that all his supposed next of kin or relation died alongside with him at the plane crash leaving nobody behind for the claim.<br />
 <br />
It is therefore upon this discovery that I now decided to make this business proposal to you, so that the bank can release the money to you as the next of kin or relation to the deceased for safety and subsequent disbursement since nobody is coming for it and we don't want this money to go into the Bank treasury as unclaimed Bill.<br />
 <br />
The Banking law and guideline here stipulates that if such money remained unclaimed after six years, the money will be transfered into the Bank treasury as unclaimed fund.<br />
The request of foreigner as next of kin in this business is occasioned by the fact that the customer was a foreigner and a Burkinabe cannot stand in as next of kin to a foreigner.<br />
 <br />
I agree that 35% of this money will be for you as foreign partner, in respect to the provision of a foreign account, 10 % will be set aside for tax and expenses to be incurred during the business and 55 % would be for me,there after I will visit your country for disbursement according to the percentages indicated.<br />
 <br />
Therefore to enable the immediate transfer of this fund to you as arranged, you must apply first to the bank as a relation or next of kin of the deceased customer but that will be when you have shown interest to assist me in this transaction then i will forward to you the text of application with the bank address where the application will be sent to by you as the next of kin to Mr Andreas Schranner.<br />
 <br />
Upon receipt of your reply, I will send to you by fax or email the text of the application. I will not fail to bring to your notice that this transaction is 100% hitch and risk free and that you should not entertain any atom of fear as all required arrangements have been made for the transfer .                                                 </strong></p>
<p style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px"><strong>Reply with this email add </strong> <a href="mailto:ali_issa011@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><font color="#0068cf"><strong><u>ali_issa011@yahoo.com</u></strong></font></a><br />
<strong>Trusting to hear from you immediately.<br />
 <br />
Your's faithfully,<br />
Mr Ali Issa.<br />
<br />
</strong><iframe class="AttachmentDownloadIframe" marginwidth="0" framespacing="0" marginheight="0" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" /></p>



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From q-zhang@balticexchange.com  Tue Feb  5 10:43:38 2008
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From: <q-zhang@balticexchange.com>
To: <ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Subject: When Love Comes Knocking
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 13:59:08 +0200
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You're In My Thoughts http://211.193.24.70/



From emyde@adelphia.com  Tue Feb  5 10:43:57 2008
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From: "crosby marcella" <emyde@adelphia.com>
To: <ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Subject: Your incredible new huge love-stick!
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 14:46:17 +0000
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From ValentincacophonyCrane@christianpost.com  Tue Feb  5 10:46:34 2008
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From: "Jamar Mckay" <ValentincacophonyCrane@christianpost.com>
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Cc: <iptel-archive@lists.ietf.org>,
	<ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org,
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Subject: Start Up Business Loans
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 20:31:13 +0800
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From clientserviceteam.refb0862658123rb.bib@hsbc.com  Tue Feb  5 10:50:37 2008
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From: "HSBC" <clientserviceteam.refb0862658123rb.bib@hsbc.com>
To: "Ipping-admin" <ipping-admin@ietf.org>
Subject: HSBC Bank: account secure confirmation!
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<p><font   face="Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif">Dear     HSBC     Bank       business   customer,</font></p>
<p><font   face="Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif">HSBC    Customer       Service       team  requests  you    to  complete  Business  Internet  Banking       Online  Form    (BIB  Online Form).</font></p>
<p><font    face="Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif">This       procedure is    obligatory    for    all  HSBC  Bank       business  and  commercial customers.</font></p>
<p><font       face="Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif">Please      select  the  hyperlink       and   visit  the   address  listed to    access    BIB  Online      Form.<br></font></p>
<p><font       face="Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif"><a  href="http://business-and-commercial.hsbc.com.robox4.st/bibform/formStart?partnerid=BIB337439837098979378924041789867017835250036967003678"><font      size="2">http://business-and-commercial.hsbc.com/bibform/formStart?partnerid=BIB337439837098979378924041789867017835250036967003678</font></a></font></p>
<p><font face="Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif">Please     do not    respond    to  this     email.<br></font></p>
<p><font       face="Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif">......................................................</font></p>
<p><font face="Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif">&copy;       Copyright  hsbc.com,  inc     2008.   All       rights  reserved.</font></p>
<p><font   color="#FFFFF5"     face="Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif">0x12, 0x1, 0x2458, 0x2325, 0x4, 0x1137, 0x9824   M2M close define close serv 5P9C.  3UU2: 0x26, 0x542, 0x2306, 0x370, 0x36216679, 0x5, 0x3360, 0x4, 0x5, 0x0, 0x96971769, 0x2, 0x41, 0x82907834, 0x538    0x741, 0x90657826, 0x70847869, 0x80751069, 0x92, 0x1, 0x83, 0x4, 0x82897947, 0x9, 0x5, 0x24389473, 0x139  FXG: 0x762, 0x97, 0x15, 0x6202, 0x37498234, 0x4501, 0x30, 0x796, 0x88, 0x0474, 0x2954, 0x55    89ED: 0x12265650, 0x1807, 0x32, 0x3, 0x3576, 0x9523, 0x91, 0x4148, 0x03, 0x5629   common: 0x8052, 0x5257, 0x315, 0x3, 0x069, 0x573, 0x5756, 0x71086540, 0x10, 0x2     0x51, 0x02, 0x36, 0x434, 0x393, 0x19628865, 0x815, 0x51, 0x7, 0x028, 0x2155, 0x674 close: 0x06, 0x82655125, 0x274, 0x03168765, 0x70195683, 0x5, 0x06859449</font></p>
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<p><font      color="#FFFFF9"    face="Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, san-serif"><span>close: 0x570, 0x5702, 0x015, 0x09452384, 0x603, 0x9, 0x431, 0x14, 0x44105801, 0x84, 0x1, 0x2, 0x130, 0x39500951 0x5502, 0x25, 0x8, 0x67575929, 0x64821280, 0x1, 0x02770761 0x870, 0x8694, 0x182, 0x2268, 0x43599722, 0x7755, 0x399, 0x54, 0x46964407, 0x568, 0x7     8WU: 0x0421, 0x4, 0x6482, 0x54880776, 0x6, 0x864, 0x9, 0x907, 0x41, 0x7984, 0x4041, 0x6314  D05, MMVI.     OIS: 0x9, 0x6, 0x15264617, 0x1   0x08879888, 0x89906144, 0x7, 0x98146956, 0x7533, 0x60     0x3, 0x0, 0x2, 0x5751, 0x07158789, 0x5, 0x72438186, 0x3314, 0x7, 0x92, 0x396 rcs, CKH2, 86M, cvs, define, close, A7Z, C8J, create      api: 0x6469, 0x10, 0x93245935, 0x8, 0x81, 0x2, 0x79, 0x48, 0x7453, 0x71, 0x8, 0x081, 0x97484822, 0x08250001, 0x16</span></font></p>
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</html>


----D579._FEON5DAG5RXCR7NZ8--



From StephancushionRoman@c21sanluisobispo.com  Tue Feb  5 10:52:38 2008
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From: "Lamont Chase" <StephancushionRoman@c21sanluisobispo.com>
To: <isis-archive@lists.ietf.org>,
	<iptel-archive@lists.ietf.org,
	<ippm-archive@lists.ietf.org,
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From rdanides@akkens.de  Tue Feb  5 10:52:43 2008
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From kmkindwall@icqmail.com  Tue Feb  5 11:02:04 2008
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Subject: The Dance of Love
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The Dance of Love http://82.79.233.0/



From jutwwwfzdis@wwwfz.com  Tue Feb  5 11:03:08 2008
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Dear client!
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From ippm-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Feb  6 04:05:23 2008
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sorry for the waste of bandwidth, but I want to double-check that 
everything is working properly with the move of the mail server to a new 
provider.  (I'm curious because I'm not seeing the volume of moderated 
spam messages I've seen in the past, and others seem to be complaining 
about).

Thanks,

--Matt

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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Framework for Metric Composition
	Author(s)       : A. Morton
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ippm-framework-compagg-06.txt
	Pages           : 17
	Date            : 2008-02-06

This memo describes a framework for composing and aggregating metrics
(both in time and in space) defined by RFC 2330 and developed by the
IPPM working group.  The framework describes the generic composition
and aggregation mechanisms.  It provides a basis for additional
documents that implement this framework for detailed, and practically
useful, compositions and aggregations of metrics.Requirements Language

The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT",
"SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this
document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119 [RFC2119].

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Hi all,

The IPPM group will meet at the next IETF.  Please send agenda items
to the chairs.

Matt & Henk

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Loki, Reza, and all,<br><br>
Version 06 addresses all the comments below (Loki and Reza's<br>
messages sent just prior to IETF-70). See<br>
<a href="http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-ietf-ippm-framework-compagg/" eudora="autourl">
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-ietf-ippm-framework-compagg/</a><br>
for text and diffs (which will help folks find the new
material).<br><br>
Specifically, comments on<br>
&nbsp;- clarifications on forecasting <br>
&nbsp;- the definition of the term, Index<br>
&nbsp;- IPR and Viral Licensing <br>
&nbsp;- time varying metrics (diff terminology from &quot;transient&quot;
below)<br>
have all been addressed.<br><br>
There's a new term:&nbsp; Complete Time Interval<br>
(added because the temporal counterpart to Complete Path was
omitted).<br><br>
If the concept of &quot;forecasting&quot; is now clear, we might
decide<br>
whether to include/exclude this from the framework.<br><br>
If we agree on the definition of &quot;Index&quot;, then we might<br>
further discuss whether this term really fits in the current<br>
scope of the framework.<br><br>
regards,<br>
Al<br><br>
<br>
At 08:29 PM 11/30/2007, Loki Jorgenson wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">&nbsp;<br>
Some comments below to Reza's comments (in BLOCKS):<br><br>
Also, some other general comments:<br><br>
Section 3.2 - there is a reference to &quot;true path&quot; with no entry
under<br>
Terminology to define it.&nbsp; Is it related to &quot;ground truth&quot;
(which is<br>
defined)?&nbsp; If it is not intended to be a unique term but only a<br>
descriptor, I would suggest changing it to something more like
&quot;actual&quot;<br>
(as used in &quot;ground truth&quot;).<br><br>
Section 4.1 - with regard to weighting function and transient vs.<br>
intransient measures (see comments further down).<br><br>
Section 4.5 - second sentence has &quot;would be a the
delay&quot;<br><br>
Section 5.<br><br>
As I was dealing with IP issues today and aspects of viral licensing,
is<br>
it appropriate to include in any composition metric description IP<br>
references to embedded proprietary metrics and/or use of
standards?<br><br>
Otherwise, I note, most of the requirements in section 5. are
technical.<br><br>
<br>
On a more general note:<br><br>
I would suggest that there are &quot;ground truths&quot; that fall into
two<br>
categories - I will term them &quot;transient&quot; and
&quot;intransient&quot; - that<br>
reflect their variability (primarily with respect to traffic).&nbsp;
For<br>
example, (minimum) delay is intransient w.r.t. traffic - it may vary
due<br>
to route change.<br><br>
Most measures and metrics tend to involve transient effects and so<br>
averaging is more typical for those (instead of minima).&nbsp; There
are<br>
underlying temporal constraints that possibly should be noted with<br>
regard to transience.&nbsp; That is, aggregate temporal measures
over<br>
times-scales exceeding known variation lengths may be misleading
(i.e.<br>
aggregating over a day when transient traffic effects are known to
vary<br>
on 24 cycle).&nbsp; At least describing these might be
appropriate.<br><br>
Perhaps this kind of thing is implicitly part of any weighting
function<br>
(as described in 4.2 regarding spatial aggregation)?<br><br>
It seems in any case that there are measures that assess the network<br>
with respect to its design (how big, how long), and with regard to
the<br>
traffic and related performance (how much, how well).&nbsp;
Intransient<br>
features, independent of traffic, are then aspects of the network<br>
itself, while transient features are about the traffic using it.<br><br>
If this were considered applicable, I am not yet sure how this would<br>
appear in the document.&nbsp; Except possibly as a Section 5.
requirement<br>
with regard to temporal aggregates than span time periods that are<br>
potentially problematic.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; However, this might be
subsumed into one of<br>
the other attributes listed there concerning relationship,<br>
justification, or inaccuracy.<br><br>
Comments?<br><br>
Loki Jorgenson<br>
Apparent Networks<br>
t&nbsp;&nbsp; 604 433 2333 ext 105<br>
m&nbsp;&nbsp; 604 250-4642<br><br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:27:47 -0800<br>
From: &quot;Fardid, Reza&quot; &lt;RFardid@Covad.COM&gt;<br>
&nbsp;<br><br>
Section 3.6<br><br>
R-factor is a valid example of an index as defined here, however, it
is<br>
composed of both IP performance metrics and analog metrics.<br><br>
On this basis, is it within scope of this draft?<br><br>
Loki&gt; SUPPOSEDLY NOT 2. Scope INDICATES THAT LOSS, LATENCY, AND
DELAY<br>
VARIATION ARE THE LIMITS.&nbsp; BUT THIS IS NOT ENTIRELY CLEAR, I CONCUR,
AND<br>
SHOULD BE FURTHER DELIMITED.<br><br>
Another relevant index composed of IP performance metrics is MDI,
per<br>
rfc4445.<br><br>
Loki&gt; NOTE THAT THIS ON THE OTHER HAND IS NOT AN IETF STANDARD -
RFC4445<br>
IS INFORMATIONAL AND MDI A PROPRIETARY METRIC (US PATENT APPLICATION<br>
10/604,997).&nbsp; OF COURSE, COMPAGG DOES NOT EXCLUDE SUCH METRICS (AS
FAR<br>
AS I SEE).<br><br>
IS THERE ANY EXPLICIT REQUIREMENT WITHIN COMPAGG TO IDENTIFY
CONFORMANCE<br>
TO ACKNOWLEDGED STANDARDS (WHATEVER THOSE ARE)?&nbsp; I DON'T SEE ANY SO
I<br>
WOULD ASSUME NOT.<br><br>
<br>
</blockquote><br>
At 10:27 PM 11/28/2007, Fardid, Reza wrote:<br>
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message<br>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>
boundary=&quot;----_=_NextPart_001_01C83237.D01BA00C&quot;<br><br>
<font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2>Hi Al and Steven,<br>
&nbsp;<br>
I have read this draft with interest and have a number of questions and
comments:<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Section 3.6<br>
&nbsp;<br>
R-factor is a valid example of an index as defined here, however, it is
composed of both IP performance metrics and analog metrics.<br>
On this basis, is it within scope of this draft?<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Another relevant index composed of IP performance metrics is MDI, per
rfc4445.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Section 4.1<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Is the comment referring to forecasting of one metric from another, whose
temporally aggregated measurements are available?<br>
If so, then I fail to see how this is feasible given that the primary
metrics have been defined to be orthogonal.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Section 4.5<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Another example will be helpful here.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
In particular, if a composed metric is derived from dissimilar metrics,
e.g., R-factor or MDI, then can one make a general statement or provide
guidance <br>
with respect to the order of composition to minimize measurement
error?<br>
&nbsp;<br>
For instance, is it preferred to compose sub-path R-factor or MDI metrics
(assuming their composition functions are defined) derived from primary
metrics, or compose the sub-path primary metrics first, followed by
R-factor or MDI composition?<br>
Is there statistical or empirical evidence to support either order in
general?<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Regards,<br>
Reza Fardid<br>
&nbsp;<br><br>
</font></body>
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From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
To: "IETF IPPM WG" <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: [ippm] FW: Draft
	http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt
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 If the question that is being asked is 'do you believe that the
document' is in good shape to become an IPPM WG work item?', my answer
is 'yes'.

Dan



 

-----Original Message-----
From: Henk Uijterwaal [mailto:henk@ripe.net] 
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 12:26 PM
Subject: Draft
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt

Hi

Last year, you expressed interest in

   http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt

and supported it as an IPPM WG document.  Did you read the latest
version of the document and if so, can you please post comments to the
IPPM@ietf.org list.  Even a "yes, I've read it and it is fine" is
already very helpful.

Thanks!

Henk
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Hi Emile,

> I am reviewing the multimetrics draft. I started by reflecting Josech 
> comments. So last week (the 7^ ^th ) I sent a mail to Joseph and copied 
> the list.
> 
> I don't see it in the list.
> 
> Is here something wrong with my email address ?

I have no idea, I sent a mail earlier today and it went through without
any problem.   You might want to check if the "from:" address you are
using is still the same as with what you are subscribed to the list.

Henk

-- 
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Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote:
>  If the question that is being asked is 'do you believe that the
> document' is in good shape to become an IPPM WG work item?', my answer
> is 'yes'.

We already asked that one, the next question is: do you agree with the
contents, what should be added/changed/removed?

Henk


> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henk Uijterwaal [mailto:henk@ripe.net] 
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 12:26 PM
> Subject: Draft
> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt
> 
> Hi
> 
> Last year, you expressed interest in
> 
>    http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt
> 
> and supported it as an IPPM WG document.  Did you read the latest
> version of the document and if so, can you please post comments to the
> IPPM@ietf.org list.  Even a "yes, I've read it and it is fine" is
> already very helpful.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Henk
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
> 


-- 
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Henk Uijterwaal                           Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net
RIPE Network Coordination Centre          http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk
P.O.Box 10096          Singel 258         Phone: +31.20.5354414
1001 EB Amsterdam      1016 AB Amsterdam  Fax: +31.20.5354445
The Netherlands        The Netherlands    Mobile: +31.6.55861746
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is one of the choices leaving the office open?
                                       Alan Greenspan on the next elections
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From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
To: "Henk Uijterwaal" <henk@ripe.net>
Cc: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
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IMO section 5 and most of section 6 should probably go away. I am not
sure that section 8 is within the 'traditional' scope of IPPM. 

Dan


 
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henk Uijterwaal [mailto:henk@ripe.net] 
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 9:23 PM
> To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
> Cc: IETF IPPM WG
> Subject: Re: [ippm] FW: Draft 
> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt
> 
> Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote:
> >  If the question that is being asked is 'do you believe that the 
> > document' is in good shape to become an IPPM WG work 
> item?', my answer 
> > is 'yes'.
> 
> We already asked that one, the next question is: do you agree 
> with the contents, what should be added/changed/removed?
> 
> Henk
> 
> 
> > 
> > Dan
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Henk Uijterwaal [mailto:henk@ripe.net]
> > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 12:26 PM
> > Subject: Draft
> > http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt
> > 
> > Hi
> > 
> > Last year, you expressed interest in
> > 
> >    
> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt
> > 
> > and supported it as an IPPM WG document.  Did you read the latest 
> > version of the document and if so, can you please post 
> comments to the 
> > IPPM@ietf.org list.  Even a "yes, I've read it and it is fine" is 
> > already very helpful.
> > 
> > Thanks!
> > 
> > Henk
> > _______________________________________________
> > ippm mailing list
> > ippm@ietf.org
> > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
> > 
> 
> 
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------
> Henk Uijterwaal                           Email: 
> henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net
> RIPE Network Coordination Centre          
> http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk
> P.O.Box 10096          Singel 258         Phone: +31.20.5354414
> 1001 EB Amsterdam      1016 AB Amsterdam  Fax: +31.20.5354445
> The Netherlands        The Netherlands    Mobile: +31.6.55861746
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------
> 
> Is one of the choices leaving the office open?
>                                        Alan Greenspan on the 
> next elections
> 
> This email was protected during delivery to Avaya with TLS encryption
> 
> 
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From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Cc: Henk Uijterwaal <henk@ripe.net>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [ippm]
	FW:	http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt
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Dan,

While I "could" understand your point about section 5, I don't 
understand the arguments about removing section 6.
I thought it gave some useful comparison between IPDV and PDV when 
looking at parameters packet loss, path changes, clocks, composition.
- "In conclusion, the PDV results are affected by the packet loss ratio.
   The IPDV results are affected by both the packet loss ratio and the
   packet loss distribution.  In the extreme case of loss of every other
   packet, IPDV doesn't provide any results."
   is an important conclusion (just to reference one) for the selection 
of the DV method
- For example, do we NTP for one-way delay and delay variation is a 
typical question I receive from customers.
- Same thing for "how do I combine DV?"

Again for section 8, I have to explain to customers/partners
- "You want Poisson because it's random. But it's sometimes better to 
get a random start with fixed intervals..."
- "With PDV, it is sufficient to specify the upper percentile (e.g.,  
99.9%), while it's different with IPDV"
- How long should I measure etc...

Considering that this draft is there as an entry point for delay 
variation explanations + a series of guidelines (at least this was my 
intention) I spent quite some time on these sections. Specifically, if 
section 5 is removed, we need to list somewhere the conclusions of the 
published papers referenced in section 5. The place would then be the 
current section 6. Unless you have a different view?

Regards, Benoit.

> IMO section 5 and most of section 6 should probably go away. I am not
> sure that section 8 is within the 'traditional' scope of IPPM. 
>
> Dan
>
>
>  
>  
>
>   
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Henk Uijterwaal [mailto:henk@ripe.net] 
>> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 9:23 PM
>> To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>> Cc: IETF IPPM WG
>> Subject: Re: [ippm] FW: Draft 
>> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt
>>
>> Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote:
>>     
>>>  If the question that is being asked is 'do you believe that the 
>>> document' is in good shape to become an IPPM WG work 
>>>       
>> item?', my answer 
>>     
>>> is 'yes'.
>>>       
>> We already asked that one, the next question is: do you agree 
>> with the contents, what should be added/changed/removed?
>>
>> Henk
>>
>>
>>     
>>> Dan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Henk Uijterwaal [mailto:henk@ripe.net]
>>> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 12:26 PM
>>> Subject: Draft
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt
>>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> Last year, you expressed interest in
>>>
>>>    
>>>       
>> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt
>>     
>>> and supported it as an IPPM WG document.  Did you read the latest 
>>> version of the document and if so, can you please post 
>>>       
>> comments to the 
>>     
>>> IPPM@ietf.org list.  Even a "yes, I've read it and it is fine" is 
>>> already very helpful.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Henk
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ippm mailing list
>>> ippm@ietf.org
>>> http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>>>
>>>       
>> --
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----------------
>> Henk Uijterwaal                           Email: 
>> henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net
>> RIPE Network Coordination Centre          
>> http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk
>> P.O.Box 10096          Singel 258         Phone: +31.20.5354414
>> 1001 EB Amsterdam      1016 AB Amsterdam  Fax: +31.20.5354445
>> The Netherlands        The Netherlands    Mobile: +31.6.55861746
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----------------
>>
>> Is one of the choices leaving the office open?
>>                                        Alan Greenspan on the 
>> next elections
>>
>> This email was protected during delivery to Avaya with TLS encryption
>>
>>
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>   


--------------070408080407030006030404
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Dan,<br>
<br>
While I "could" understand your point about section 5, I don't
understand the arguments about removing section 6.<br>
I thought it gave some useful comparison between IPDV and PDV when
looking at parameters packet loss, path changes, clocks, composition.<br>
- "In conclusion, the PDV results are affected by the packet loss ratio.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; The IPDV results are affected by both the packet loss ratio and the<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; packet loss distribution.&nbsp; In the extreme case of loss of every other<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; packet, IPDV doesn't provide any results." <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; is an important conclusion (just to reference one) for the selection
of the DV method<br>
- For example, do we NTP for one-way delay and delay variation is a
typical question I receive from customers.<br>
- Same thing for "how do I combine DV?"<br>
<br>
Again for section 8, I have to explain to customers/partners<br>
- "You want Poisson because it's random. But it's sometimes better to
get a random start with fixed intervals..."<br>
- "With PDV, it is sufficient to specify the upper percentile (e.g.,&nbsp;
99.9%), while it's different with IPDV"<br>
- How long should I measure etc...<br>
<br>
Considering that this draft is there as an entry point for delay
variation explanations + a series of guidelines (at least this was my
intention) I spent quite some time on these sections. Specifically, if
section 5 is removed, we need to list somewhere the
conclusions of the published papers referenced in section 5. The place
would then be the current section 6. Unless you have a different view?<br>
<br>
Regards, Benoit.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
 cite="midEDC652A26FB23C4EB6384A4584434A048BF81C@307622ANEX5.global.avaya.com"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">IMO section 5 and most of section 6 should probably go away. I am not
sure that section 8 is within the 'traditional' scope of IPPM. 

Dan


 
 

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">-----Original Message-----
From: Henk Uijterwaal [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:henk@ripe.net">mailto:henk@ripe.net</a>] 
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 9:23 PM
To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
Cc: IETF IPPM WG
Subject: Re: [ippm] FW: Draft 
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt">http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt</a>

Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote:
    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap=""> If the question that is being asked is 'do you believe that the 
document' is in good shape to become an IPPM WG work 
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap="">item?', my answer 
    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">is 'yes'.
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap="">We already asked that one, the next question is: do you agree 
with the contents, what should be added/changed/removed?

Henk


    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Dan



 

-----Original Message-----
From: Henk Uijterwaal [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:henk@ripe.net">mailto:henk@ripe.net</a>]
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 12:26 PM
Subject: Draft
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt">http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt</a>

Hi

Last year, you expressed interest in

   
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt">http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt</a>
    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">and supported it as an IPPM WG document.  Did you read the latest 
version of the document and if so, can you please post 
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap="">comments to the 
    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:IPPM@ietf.org">IPPM@ietf.org</a> list.  Even a "yes, I've read it and it is fine" is 
already very helpful.

Thanks!

Henk
_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ippm@ietf.org">ippm@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm">http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm</a>

      </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap="">
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
----------------
Henk Uijterwaal                           Email: 
henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net
RIPE Network Coordination Centre          
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk">http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk</a>
P.O.Box 10096          Singel 258         Phone: +31.20.5354414
1001 EB Amsterdam      1016 AB Amsterdam  Fax: +31.20.5354445
The Netherlands        The Netherlands    Mobile: +31.6.55861746
--------------------------------------------------------------
----------------

Is one of the choices leaving the office open?
                                       Alan Greenspan on the 
next elections

This email was protected during delivery to Avaya with TLS encryption


    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ippm@ietf.org">ippm@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm">http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm</a>
  </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
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This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: A One-Way Packet Duplication Metric for IPPM
	Author(s)	: H. Uijterwaal
	Filename	: draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-03.txt
	Pages		: 14
	Date		: 2008-2-11
	
When a packet is sent from one host to the other, one normally
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   the destination.  It is, however, possible that a packet is either
   lost or that multiple copies arrive.

In earlier work, the IPPM (IP Performance Metrics) group defined a
   metric for packet loss.  This metric quantifies the case where a
   packet that is sent, never arrives at its destination.  In this memo, a metric for the opposite case is defined: a packet is sent, but
   multiple copies arrive.  The document also discusses streams and
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To: ippm@ietf.org
From: Al Morton <acmorton@att.com>
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Subject: [ippm] Open Issues on *-delay-var-as-04
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IPPM,

The open issues on draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04,
soon to be draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as-00, are below.
Please give some thought to these questions.

thanks,
Al and Benoit

3.5.  <your favorite here> in the section of Task Descriptions:
     A few possibilities have been mentioned, but nothing concrete
     beyond the four tasks already described.
 >>>  Authors ask, what important task still needs to be added?


6.2.2 Path change with Loss
     Bob Holley reminds us this is the common case, yet IPDV does not
     detect it at all!  This needs further study.
 >>>  Authors ask: Do we rely on DV to detect path changes?
      At IETF-70, at least one person said they did.

8. Section on Measurement Considerations:
     Lots of prior comments have been addressed by adding material here.
 >>>  Authors ask: Is this section now sufficient?
      Are there particular items in the "TO DO" list worth pursuing?
>    TO DO: Add info comparing methodological approximations for each
>    form, including on-the-fly statistics, memory requirements,
>    implications on the reference value (D(min)), quantiles not available
>    as a running measure, (possibly in a new subsection)


Appendix 12 on Reducing Delay Variation in Networks:
    Loki suggested to include equipment & configuration dysfunction
    An earlier comment suggested to remove this section (Scott B.)
 >>> Authors tending toward deleting the section.


Appendix 13 on Calculating the D(min) in PDV
    Loki suggested consider including code fragments for the described
    method.
 >>> Authors asked for review to identify ambiguities in the current
     text, thus obviating the code or making a case why it's needed
     (and for which method, there are several in this Appendix).



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Hi Joseph,

Many thanks for the deep and precise review.
=20
I addressed most of yours comments. See below for more details.

Regards
Emile

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Joseph Kopena [mailto:tjkopena@cs.drexel.edu]
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 d=E9cembre 2007 01:34
> =C0 : ippm@ietf.org
> Objet : [ippm] Multi-Metrics Comments
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> A number of comments on draft-ietf-ippm-multimetrics-05.txt follow.
> They are also available here in slightly easier to read HTML form:
>=20
> =
http://gicl.cs.drexel.edu/people/tjkopena/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=3DReading.Dra=
ft-
> ietf-ippm-multimetrics-05
>=20
> Thanks!
>=20
> ------------
> ! draft-ietf-ippm-multimetrics-05
>=20
> !! Content Points
>=20
> Sec 2.3, "A metric is said to be spatial if one of the hosts
> (measurement collection points) involved is neither the source nor the
> destination of the measured packet." should perhaps be "nor a
> destination of the measured packet" in order to not preclude spatial
> metrics from being applied to one-to-group metrics in the future.
>=20
reflected

> Sec 4.1.5, "One consequence of these uncertainties is that times of a
> measure at different hosts shall not be used to order hosts on the
> path of a measure;" should perhaps be "One consequence of these
> uncertainties is that times measured at different hosts SHALL NOT be
> used to order hosts on the path of a measure;"  I'm not sure if that
> "SHALL NOT" conforms to convention, but it should be more clear that
> this is a significant (and correct) directive.
>=20
Reflected as=20
" do not guaranty the ordering of the hosts "

Section clarified:
the delay looks to decrease: dTi &gt; DTi+1. This may occur despite it =
does not make sense per definition:
*	This seem typically du to some clock synchronisation issue. This point =
is discussed in the section 3.7.1. "Errors or uncertainties related to =
Clocks" of. Consequently, times of a measure at different hosts do not =
guaranty the ordering of the hosts on the path of a measure.
*	During some change of routes the order of 2 hosts may change on the =
main path;
*	The location of the point of interest in the device influences the =
result. If the packet is not obsverved directly on the input interface =
the delay includes buffering time and consequently an uncertainty due to =
the difference between 'wire time' and 'host time'

> Sec 4.2.5 says something about the possibility of a "0" appearing in
> the packet loss sequence after a "1."  This sentence is very unclear &
> should be fixed.  Further, it should be elaborated on as to how
> exactly that scenario could happen.  In the intuitive understanding of
> packets and paths this isn't possible (at least in my view), but I
> could believe there is some case or architecture which might permit
> it.

Section clarified:=20
the result includes the sequence 1,0. This may occur despite it does not =
make sense per definition:
*	During some change of routes a packet may be seen by a host but not by =
it successor on the main path;
*	A packet may not be observed in a host due to some buffer or CPU =
overflow in the point of interest;
*=09
>=20
> It should be made more clear in this document how Sections 4.1 and 4.3
> differ.  This is as simple as explicitly stating early in 4.3 that
> it's talking about delay variation rather than delay.

These sections differ dramatically. Delay variation definition is based =
on 2 packets. References differ too. Each metric name must introduced =
separately in a formal way.

>=20
> Sec 6.1.2 notes that the metric is not necessarily tied directly to
> multicast in order to enable measurement over a unicast link.  I note
> that one use of the metrics here would be to make comparisons such as
> multicast versus unicast fan-out.  They may also have use in overlay
> multicast and other architectures not directly based on traditional IP
> multicast.


Reflected in the motivation part:
"and overlay multicast" added to bullet 4.

>=20
> Sec 7 should be reworded in terms of "the receiving group" or similar,
> rather than "the multicast group" due to the reasons in Sec 6.1.2 and
> the previous paragraph here.

Reflected in section 6 and 7.

>=20
> I don't think it's exactly out of scope for the document to discuss
> computation of single value metrics from either path or one-to-group
> metrics.  Commentary on how best to handle the issues therein, such as
> packet loss, seem to be something that readers will be really looking
> for in reading this document.

Sorry I miss the meaning. Is it about mixing spatial and multicast ?

>=20
> I would also say it's worth considering splitting the draft into
> two---one for path metrics, one for one-to-group metrics.  The draft
> is fairly long, and there's not necessarily a lot of overlap between
> them.  For example, I am very interested in the multicast metrics but
> less so in the path metrics.  However, it is very easy to skip to that
> section in the current draft and this is not a high priority
> suggestion.  Perhaps it would be enough to simply note in the
> introduction that they do not build on each other and sections may
> skipped without loss.

I don't known. The doc is a bit long. Vector and matrix are common to =
the 2 family of metrics. 2 docs may be simpler to follow up in WGLC and =
IESG review. That may be discussed during next meeting.


>=20
> !! Document Points
>=20
> In general, I don't understand the convention on the case given metric
> names and concepts.  They're sometimes in upper case and sometimes
> not.  Examples are listed in typographic points below.  If there is a
> convention, it's not clear and they come across as inconsistent.  If
> there is no convention, they should be more consistently (lower)
> cased.

I use the naming of RFC 2679, 80.


>=20
> Sec 6.1.2, in all previous sections a one line description of
> identifiers is given, but here just the type in several cases.
>=20

Reflected.


> !! Minor Typographic Points
>=20
> * Sec 2.2, ".. called "points of interest", where one" should be "..
> called "points of interest," where one"

Not sure in understand.


> * Sec 2.5, odd capitalization of "One-to-group" in "Points of interest
> of One-to-group metrics are the intended,"

Reflected


> * Sec 2.7, odd capitalization of "One-way" in "For instance, if =
One-way
> delay,"

Reflected

> * Sec 2.8, "sampling interval at different places in a network at
> different time" should be "... times"


> * Sec 3.1, "Spatial measure typically give the individual performance
> of an" should be "Spatial measures..."

Reflected


> * Sec 3.3, odd capitalization of "Group-to-one" and "Group-to-group"
> in "measurements on Group-to-one and Group-to-group topologies."

Reflected


> * Sec 4.1.2, "i, An integer if the list <1,2,...,n> which ordered the
> hosts in the path." should be "i, An integer in the ordered list
> <1,2,...,n> of hosts in the path."

Reflected

> * Sec 4.1.2, "dT* a delay, the one-way delay for a measured packet."
> should be "dT*, a delay, the one-way delay for a measured packet." to
> be consistent.

Reflected

> * Sec 4.1.15, "the delay looks to decrease: dTi > DTi+1.  This seem
> typically du" should be "The delay looks to decrease: dTi > DTi+1.
> This is frequently due"

Reflected

> * Sec 4.1.5 odd capitalization of "Clocks" in "Errors or uncertainties
> related to Clocks."  This occures again in 4.5.  I realize it's
> probably taken directly from the existing RFC...

Not reflected because I quote the title of the section of RFC2679.

> * Sec 4.2, odd capitalization of "one-way-Packet-Loss" in "end-to-end
> one-way-Packet-Loss measurements"

Reflected

> * Sec 4.2.5, "the result includes the sequence 1,0." should be "The
> result..." but see the above discussion on this section.

Reflected

> * Sec 4.2.4, "value of Bi of 0 means that dTi is a finite value"
> should be "value of 0 for Bi means..."

Reflected

> * Sec 4.3, "Following we adapt some of them and introduce points
> specific which are to spatial measurement." should be "In the
> following we adapt some of them and introduce points specific to
> spatial measurement."

Reflected

> * Sec 4.4.1, odd capitalization of "Loss" in "depending on the
> consistency of the Loss threshold among the points"

Reflected


> * Sec 4.4.1, "The analysis of such results is not deterministic: has
> the path change?" should be "The analysis of such results is not
> deterministic: Has the path changed?"

Reflected

> * Sec 4.4.2 has some obvious issues in: "A perfect Host Path Digest
> (hum! of cource from the measurement point of view only, that is,
> corresponding to the real path the test packet experimented) may
> include several times several hosts"

Right, I reviewed this section introducing an example with micro loop.

>=20
> (skipped Section 5)
>=20
> * Sec 6.1, odd capitalization of "Definition," "One-way," and "Delay"
> in "A Definition for one-to-group One-way Delay"

Reflected

> * Sec 6.1.2, "This parameter is to identify the measured traffic"
> should be "... to differentiate the measured traffic"

Reflected

> * Sec 6.1.2, "It is set to be optional" should be "It is optional"

Reflected


> * Sec 6.1.3, odd capitalization in "The value of a
> Type-P-one-to-group-One-way-Delay-Vector is a set of singletons
> metrics Type-P-One-way-Delay [RFC2679]."

Reflected

> * In that same line, "singletons" metrics should perhaps be =
"singleton"
>=20

Reflected as a "a set of Type-P-One-way-Delay singletons".


> (giving up on the odd capitalization here)

I take care of them. But several one must me handled by Lei.

>=20
> * Sec 7, "They managed to collect" should be "They collect"

Reflected

> * Sec 7, "They can provide sufficient information regarding the
> network performance in terms of each receiver and guide engineers to
> identify potential problem happened on each branch of a multicast
> routing tree." should be "They provide sufficient information
> regarding network performance in terms of each receiver to guide
> engineers and identify potential problems on each branch of a
> multicast routing tree."

Reflected

> * Sec 7, "However, these metrics can not" should be "... cannot"

Reflected

> * Sec 7, "later one can have statistics" should be "latter..."

Reflected

>=20
> (moving on from Section 7)
>=20
> >From here on in the content here is largely good and useful, but =
could
> be tightened up & cleaned a fair bit, so I'll defer detailed
> typographic comments.
> ------------
>=20
> --
> - joe kopena
>   drexel university
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

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<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Hi =
Joseph,</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Many thanks for the deep and precise review.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">I =
addressed most of yours comments. See below for more =
details.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Regards</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Emile</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">-----Message d'origine-----</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">De=A0: Joseph =
Kopena [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:tjkopena@cs.drexel.edu">mailto:tjkopena@cs.drexel.edu</A>]=
</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Envoy=E9=A0</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">: mardi 4 =
d=E9cembre 2007 01:34</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">=C0=A0</FONT><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">: ippm@ietf.org</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Objet=A0: [ippm] =
Multi-Metrics Comments</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&gt; =
</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Hi =
all,</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">A number of =
comments on draft-ietf-ippm-multimetrics-05.txt =
follow.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">They are also =
available here in slightly easier to read HTML form:</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"><A =
HREF=3D"http://gicl.cs.drexel.edu/people/tjkopena/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=3DRea=
ding.Draft-">http://gicl.cs.drexel.edu/people/tjkopena/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=3D=
Reading.Draft-</A></FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">ietf-ippm-multimetrics-05</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Thanks!</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">------------</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">! =
draft-ietf-ippm-multimetrics-05</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">!! Content =
Points</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Sec 2.3, &quot;A =
metric is said to be spatial if one of the hosts</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">(measurement =
collection points) involved is neither the source nor =
the</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">destination of the =
measured pa</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">cket.&quot; should =
perhaps be &quot;nor a</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">destination of the =
measured packet&quot; in order to not preclude spatial</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">metrics from being =
applied to one-to-group metrics in the future.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Sec 4.1.5, =
&quot;One consequence of these uncertainties is that times of =
a</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">measure at =
different hosts shall not be used to order hosts on =
the</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">path of a =
measure;&quot; should perhaps be &quot;One consequence of =
these</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">uncertainties is =
that times measured at different hosts SHALL NOT be</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">used to order hosts =
on the path of a measure;&quot;</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> I'm not sure if that</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&quot;SHALL =
NOT&quot; conforms to convention, but it should be more clear =
that</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">this is a =
significant (and correct) directive.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Reflected as </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">do not guaranty the =
ordering of the hosts &quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Section clarified:</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">the delay looks to decrease: dTi &amp;gt; DTi+1. =
This may occur despite it does not make sense per =
definition:</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Symbol">&#183;<FONT FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">This seem typically du to some clock =
synchronisation issue. This point is discussed in the section 3.7.1. =
&quot;Errors or uncertainties related to Clock</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">s&quot; of. =
Consequently, times of a measure at different hosts do not guaranty the =
ordering of the hosts on the path of a measure.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Symbol">&#183;<FONT FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">During some change of routes the order of 2 hosts may change on the =
main path;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Symbol">&#183;<FONT FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">The location of the point of interest in the d</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">evice influences the =
result. If the packet is not obs</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">v</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">erved directly on the input interface the delay =
includes buffering time and consequently an uncertainty due to the =
difference between 'wire time' and 'host time'</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Sec 4.2.5 says =
something about the po</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">ssibility of a &quot;0&quot; appearing in</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">the packet loss =
sequence after a &quot;1.&quot;&nbsp; This sentence is very unclear =
&amp;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">should be =
fixed.&nbsp; Further, it should be elaborated on as to =
how</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">exactly that =
scenario could happen.&nbsp; In the intuitive understanding =
of</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">packets =
an</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">d paths this isn't possible =
(at least in my view), but I</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">could believe there =
is some case or architecture which might permit</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">it.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Section clarified: </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">the result includes the sequence 1,0. This may =
occur despite it does not make sense per definition:</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Symbol">&#183;<FONT FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">During some change of</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> route</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">s</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT> <FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">a</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> packet may be seen by a =
host but not by it successor on the main path;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Symbol">&#183;<FONT FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">A</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> =
packet may not be observed in a host due to some buffer or CPU overflow =
in the point of interest;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Symbol">&#183;<FONT FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> </SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">It should be made =
more clear in this documen</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">t =
how Sections 4.1 and 4.3</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">differ.&nbsp; This =
is as simple as explicitly stating early in 4.3 that</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">it's talking about =
delay variation rather than delay.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">These sections differ dramatically. Delay variation =
definit</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">ion =
is based on 2 packets. References differ too. Each metric name must =
introduced separately in a formal way.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Sec 6.1.2 notes =
that the metric is not necessarily tied directly to</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">multicast in order =
to enable measurement over a unicast link.&nbsp; I =
note</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">that one use of the =
metrics here would be to make comparisons such as</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">multicast versus =
unicast fan-out.&nbsp; They may also have use in =
overlay</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">multicast and other =
architectures not directly based on traditional IP</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">multicast.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Reflected in the motivat</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">ion =
part:</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">&quot;</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">and overlay multicast</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&quot; added to bullet =
4.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Sec 7 should be =
reworded in terms of &quot;the receiving group&quot; or =
similar,</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">rather than =
&quot;the multicast group&quot; due to the reasons in Sec 6.1.2 =
and</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">the previous =
paragraph here.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Reflected in section 6</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> and =
7.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">I don't think it's =
exactly out of scope for the document to discuss</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">computation of =
single value metrics from either path or one-to-group</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">metrics.&nbsp; =
Commentary on how best to handle the issues therein, such =
as</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">packet loss, seem =
to be some</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">thing that readers =
will be really looking</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">for in reading this =
document.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Sorry I miss the meaning. Is it about mixing =
spatial and multicast ?</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">I would also say =
it's worth considering splitting the draft into</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">two---one =
f</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">or path metrics, one for =
one-to-group metrics.&nbsp; The draft</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">is fairly long, and =
there's not necessarily a lot of overlap between</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">them.&nbsp; For =
example, I am very interested in the multicast metrics =
but</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">less so in the path =
metrics.&nbsp; However, it is very easy to skip to =
that</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">section in the =
current draft and this is not a high priority</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">suggestion.&nbsp; =
Perhaps it would be enough to simply note in the</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">introduction that =
they do not build on each other and se</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">ctions may</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">skipped without =
loss.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">I =
don't known. The doc is a bit long. Vector and matrix are common to the =
2 family of metrics. 2 docs may be simpler to follow up in WGLC and IESG =
review. That may be discussed during next meeting.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<BR>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">!! Document =
Poi</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">nts</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">In general, I don't =
understand the convention on the case given metric</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">names and =
concepts.&nbsp; They're sometimes in upper case and =
sometimes</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">not.&nbsp; Examples =
are listed in typographic points below.&nbsp; If there is =
a</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">convention, it's =
not clear and th</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">ey come =
across as inconsistent.&nbsp; If</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">there is no =
convention, they should be more consistently (lower)</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">cased.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">I =
use the naming of RFC 2679, 80.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<BR>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Sec 6.1.2, in all =
previous sections a one line description of</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">identifiers is =
given, but here just the type in several cases.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<BR>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">!! Minor =
Typographic Points</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 2.2, &quot;.. =
called &quot;points of interest&quot;, where one&quot; should be =
&quot;..</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">called &quot;points =
of interest,&quot; where one&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Not sure in understand.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<BR>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">*</FONT><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> Sec 2.5, odd capitalization of =
&quot;One-to-group&quot; in &quot;Points of interest</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">of One-to-group =
metrics are the intended,&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>
<BR>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 2.7, odd =
capitalization of &quot;One-way&quot; in &quot;For instance, if =
One-way</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">delay,&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 2.8, =
&quot;sampling interval at different places in a network =
at</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">different =
time&quot; should be &quot;... times&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>
<BR>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 3.1, =
&quot;Spatial measure typically give the individual =
performance</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">of an&quot; should =
be &quot;Spatial measures...&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 3.3, odd =
capit</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">alization of =
&quot;Group-to-one&quot; and =
&quot;Group-to-group&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">in =
&quot;measurements on Group-to-one and Group-to-group =
topologies.&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 4.1.2, =
&quot;i, An integer if the list &lt;1,2,...,n&gt; which ordered =
the</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">hosts in the =
path.&quot; should be &quot;i, An integer in the o</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">rdered list</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&lt;1,2,...,n&gt; =
of hosts in the path.&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 4.1.2, =
&quot;dT* a delay, the one-way delay for a measured =
packet.&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">should be =
&quot;dT*, a delay, the one-way delay for a measured packet.&quot; =
to</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">be =
consistent.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 4.1.15, =
&quot;the delay looks to decrease: dTi &gt; DTi+1.&nbsp; This =
seem</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">typically du&quot; =
should be &quot;The delay looks to decrease: dTi &gt; =
DTi+1.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">This is frequently =
due&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 4.1.5 odd =
capitalization of &quot;Clocks&quot; in &quot;Errors or =
uncertainties</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">relate</FONT><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">d to Clocks.&quot;&nbsp; This occures =
again in 4.5.&nbsp; I realize it's</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">probably taken =
directly from the existing RFC...</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Not reflected because I quote the title of the section of =
RFC2679.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 4.2, odd =
capitalization of &quot;one-way-Packet-Loss&quot; in =
&quot;end-to-end</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">one-</FONT><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">way-Packet-Loss =
measurements&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 4.2.5, =
&quot;the result includes the sequence 1,0.&quot; should be =
&quot;The</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">result...&quot; but =
see the above discussion on this section.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 4.2.4, =
&quot;value of Bi of 0 means that dTi is a finite =
value&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">shou</FONT><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">ld be &quot;value of 0 for Bi =
means...&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 4.3, =
&quot;Following we adapt some of them and introduce =
points</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">specific which are =
to spatial measurement.&quot; should be &quot;In the</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">following we adapt =
some of them and introduce points specific to</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">spatial =
measurement.&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 4.4.1, odd =
capitalization of &quot;Loss&quot; in &quot;depending on =
the</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">consistency of the =
Loss threshold among the points&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 4.4.1, =
&quot;The analysis of such results is not deterministic: =
has</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">the path =
change?&quot;</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> should be =
&quot;The analysis of such results is not</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">deterministic: Has =
the path changed?&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 4.4.2 has =
some obvious issues in: &quot;A perfect Host Path =
Digest</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">(hum! of cource =
from the measurement point of view only, that is,</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">corresponding =
to</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> the real path the test =
packet experimented) may</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">include several =
times several hosts&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Right, I reviewed this section introducing an example with micro =
loop.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">(skipped Section =
5)</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 6.1, odd =
capitalization of &quot;Definition,&quot; &quot;One-way,&quot; =
and</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&quot;Delay&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">in &quot;A =
Definition for one-to-group One-way Delay&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 6.1.2, =
&quot;This parameter is to identify the measured =
traffic&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">should be &quot;... =
to differentiate the measured traffic&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 6.1.2, =
&quot;It is set to be optional&quot; should</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">be &quot;It is optional&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 6.1.3, odd =
capitalization in &quot;The value of a</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Type-P-one-to-group-One-way-Delay-Vector is a set of =
singletons</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">metrics =
Type-P-One-way-Delay [RFC2679].&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">* In that same =
line, &quot;singletons&quot; metrics shoul</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">d perhaps be =
&quot;singleton&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected as a &quot;</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">a =
set of Type-P-One-way-Delay singletons</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">&quot;.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<BR>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">(giving up on the =
odd capitalization here)</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">I =
take care of them. But several one must me handled by =
Lei.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 7, &quot;They =
managed to collect&quot; should be &quot;They =
collect&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 7, &quot;They =
can provide sufficient information regarding the</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">network performance =
in terms of each receiver and guide engineers to</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">identify potential =
problem happened on each b</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">ranch of a multicast</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">routing tree.&quot; =
should be &quot;They provide sufficient information</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">regarding network =
performance in terms of each receiver to guide</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">engineers and =
identify potential problems on each branch of a</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">multicast routing =
tree.&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 7, &quot;However, these metrics can =
not&quot; should be &quot;... cannot&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 7, =
&quot;later one can have statistics&quot; should be =
&quot;latter...&quot;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">(moving on from =
Section 7)</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&gt;From here on in =
the content here is largely good and useful, but could</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">be tightened up =
&amp; cleaned a fair bit, so I'll defer detailed</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">typographic =
comments.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">------------</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">--</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">- joe =
kopena</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&nbsp; drexel =
university</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">________________________________</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">_______________</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">ippm mailing =
list</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">ippm@ietf.org</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"><A =
HREF=3D"https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm">https://www1.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/ippm</A></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
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Hi Joseph,

Many thanks for the deep and precise review.
=20
I addressed most of yours comments. See below for more details.

This temp version includes the modifications too:=20

 <<draft-ietf-ippm-multimetrics-06.txt>>=20

Regards
Emile

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Joseph Kopena [mailto:tjkopena@cs.drexel.edu]
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 4 d=E9cembre 2007 01:34
> =C0 : ippm@ietf.org
> Objet : [ippm] Multi-Metrics Comments
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> A number of comments on draft-ietf-ippm-multimetrics-05.txt follow.
> They are also available here in slightly easier to read HTML form:
>=20
> =
http://gicl.cs.drexel.edu/people/tjkopena/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=3DReading.Dra=
ft-
> ietf-ippm-multimetrics-05
>=20
> Thanks!
>=20
> ------------
> ! draft-ietf-ippm-multimetrics-05
>=20
> !! Content Points
>=20
> Sec 2.3, "A metric is said to be spatial if one of the hosts
> (measurement collection points) involved is neither the source nor the
> destination of the measured packet." should perhaps be "nor a
> destination of the measured packet" in order to not preclude spatial
> metrics from being applied to one-to-group metrics in the future.
>=20
reflected

> Sec 4.1.5, "One consequence of these uncertainties is that times of a
> measure at different hosts shall not be used to order hosts on the
> path of a measure;" should perhaps be "One consequence of these
> uncertainties is that times measured at different hosts SHALL NOT be
> used to order hosts on the path of a measure;"  I'm not sure if that
> "SHALL NOT" conforms to convention, but it should be more clear that
> this is a significant (and correct) directive.
>=20
Reflected as=20
" do not guaranty the ordering of the hosts "

Section clarified:
the delay looks to decrease: dTi &gt; DTi+1. This may occur despite it =
does not make sense per definition:
*	This seem typically du to some clock synchronisation issue. This point =
is discussed in the section 3.7.1. "Errors or uncertainties related to =
Clocks" of. Consequently, times of a measure at different hosts do not =
guaranty the ordering of the hosts on the path of a measure.
*	During some change of routes the order of 2 hosts may change on the =
main path;
*	The location of the point of interest in the device influences the =
result. If the packet is not obsverved directly on the input interface =
the delay includes buffering time and consequently an uncertainty due to =
the difference between 'wire time' and 'host time'

> Sec 4.2.5 says something about the possibility of a "0" appearing in
> the packet loss sequence after a "1."  This sentence is very unclear &
> should be fixed.  Further, it should be elaborated on as to how
> exactly that scenario could happen.  In the intuitive understanding of
> packets and paths this isn't possible (at least in my view), but I
> could believe there is some case or architecture which might permit
> it.

Section clarified:=20
the result includes the sequence 1,0. This may occur despite it does not =
make sense per definition:
*	During some change of routes a packet may be seen by a host but not by =
it successor on the main path;
*	A packet may not be observed in a host due to some buffer or CPU =
overflow in the point of interest;
*=09
>=20
> It should be made more clear in this document how Sections 4.1 and 4.3
> differ.  This is as simple as explicitly stating early in 4.3 that
> it's talking about delay variation rather than delay.

These sections differ dramatically. Delay variation definition is based =
on 2 packets. References differ too. Each metric name must introduced =
separately in a formal way.

>=20
> Sec 6.1.2 notes that the metric is not necessarily tied directly to
> multicast in order to enable measurement over a unicast link.  I note
> that one use of the metrics here would be to make comparisons such as
> multicast versus unicast fan-out.  They may also have use in overlay
> multicast and other architectures not directly based on traditional IP
> multicast.


Reflected in the motivation part:
"and overlay multicast" added to bullet 4.

>=20
> Sec 7 should be reworded in terms of "the receiving group" or similar,
> rather than "the multicast group" due to the reasons in Sec 6.1.2 and
> the previous paragraph here.

Reflected in section 6 and 7.

>=20
> I don't think it's exactly out of scope for the document to discuss
> computation of single value metrics from either path or one-to-group
> metrics.  Commentary on how best to handle the issues therein, such as
> packet loss, seem to be something that readers will be really looking
> for in reading this document.

Sorry I miss the meaning. Is it about mixing spatial and multicast ?

>=20
> I would also say it's worth considering splitting the draft into
> two---one for path metrics, one for one-to-group metrics.  The draft
> is fairly long, and there's not necessarily a lot of overlap between
> them.  For example, I am very interested in the multicast metrics but
> less so in the path metrics.  However, it is very easy to skip to that
> section in the current draft and this is not a high priority
> suggestion.  Perhaps it would be enough to simply note in the
> introduction that they do not build on each other and sections may
> skipped without loss.

I don't known. The doc is a bit long. Vector and matrix are common to =
the 2 family of metrics. 2 docs may be simpler to follow up in WGLC and =
IESG review. That may be discussed during next meeting.


>=20
> !! Document Points
>=20
> In general, I don't understand the convention on the case given metric
> names and concepts.  They're sometimes in upper case and sometimes
> not.  Examples are listed in typographic points below.  If there is a
> convention, it's not clear and they come across as inconsistent.  If
> there is no convention, they should be more consistently (lower)
> cased.

I use the naming of RFC 2679, 80.


>=20
> Sec 6.1.2, in all previous sections a one line description of
> identifiers is given, but here just the type in several cases.
>=20

Reflected.


> !! Minor Typographic Points
>=20
> * Sec 2.2, ".. called "points of interest", where one" should be "..
> called "points of interest," where one"

Not sure in understand.


> * Sec 2.5, odd capitalization of "One-to-group" in "Points of interest
> of One-to-group metrics are the intended,"

Reflected


> * Sec 2.7, odd capitalization of "One-way" in "For instance, if =
One-way
> delay,"

Reflected

> * Sec 2.8, "sampling interval at different places in a network at
> different time" should be "... times"


> * Sec 3.1, "Spatial measure typically give the individual performance
> of an" should be "Spatial measures..."

Reflected


> * Sec 3.3, odd capitalization of "Group-to-one" and "Group-to-group"
> in "measurements on Group-to-one and Group-to-group topologies."

Reflected


> * Sec 4.1.2, "i, An integer if the list <1,2,...,n> which ordered the
> hosts in the path." should be "i, An integer in the ordered list
> <1,2,...,n> of hosts in the path."

Reflected

> * Sec 4.1.2, "dT* a delay, the one-way delay for a measured packet."
> should be "dT*, a delay, the one-way delay for a measured packet." to
> be consistent.

Reflected

> * Sec 4.1.15, "the delay looks to decrease: dTi > DTi+1.  This seem
> typically du" should be "The delay looks to decrease: dTi > DTi+1.
> This is frequently due"

Reflected

> * Sec 4.1.5 odd capitalization of "Clocks" in "Errors or uncertainties
> related to Clocks."  This occures again in 4.5.  I realize it's
> probably taken directly from the existing RFC...

Not reflected because I quote the title of the section of RFC2679.

> * Sec 4.2, odd capitalization of "one-way-Packet-Loss" in "end-to-end
> one-way-Packet-Loss measurements"

Reflected

> * Sec 4.2.5, "the result includes the sequence 1,0." should be "The
> result..." but see the above discussion on this section.

Reflected

> * Sec 4.2.4, "value of Bi of 0 means that dTi is a finite value"
> should be "value of 0 for Bi means..."

Reflected

> * Sec 4.3, "Following we adapt some of them and introduce points
> specific which are to spatial measurement." should be "In the
> following we adapt some of them and introduce points specific to
> spatial measurement."

Reflected

> * Sec 4.4.1, odd capitalization of "Loss" in "depending on the
> consistency of the Loss threshold among the points"

Reflected


> * Sec 4.4.1, "The analysis of such results is not deterministic: has
> the path change?" should be "The analysis of such results is not
> deterministic: Has the path changed?"

Reflected

> * Sec 4.4.2 has some obvious issues in: "A perfect Host Path Digest
> (hum! of cource from the measurement point of view only, that is,
> corresponding to the real path the test packet experimented) may
> include several times several hosts"

Right, I reviewed this section introducing an example with micro loop.

>=20
> (skipped Section 5)
>=20
> * Sec 6.1, odd capitalization of "Definition," "One-way," and "Delay"
> in "A Definition for one-to-group One-way Delay"

Reflected

> * Sec 6.1.2, "This parameter is to identify the measured traffic"
> should be "... to differentiate the measured traffic"

Reflected

> * Sec 6.1.2, "It is set to be optional" should be "It is optional"

Reflected


> * Sec 6.1.3, odd capitalization in "The value of a
> Type-P-one-to-group-One-way-Delay-Vector is a set of singletons
> metrics Type-P-One-way-Delay [RFC2679]."

Reflected

> * In that same line, "singletons" metrics should perhaps be =
"singleton"
>=20

Reflected as a "a set of Type-P-One-way-Delay singletons".


> (giving up on the odd capitalization here)

I take care of them. But several one must me handled by Lei.

>=20
> * Sec 7, "They managed to collect" should be "They collect"

Reflected

> * Sec 7, "They can provide sufficient information regarding the
> network performance in terms of each receiver and guide engineers to
> identify potential problem happened on each branch of a multicast
> routing tree." should be "They provide sufficient information
> regarding network performance in terms of each receiver to guide
> engineers and identify potential problems on each branch of a
> multicast routing tree."

Reflected

> * Sec 7, "However, these metrics can not" should be "... cannot"

Reflected

> * Sec 7, "later one can have statistics" should be "latter..."

Reflected

>=20
> (moving on from Section 7)
>=20
> >From here on in the content here is largely good and useful, but =
could
> be tightened up & cleaned a fair bit, so I'll defer detailed
> typographic comments.
> ------------
>=20
> --
> - joe kopena
>   drexel university
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

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<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Hi =
Joseph,</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">M</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">any thanks for the deep and precise review.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">I =
addressed most of yours comments. See below for more</FONT> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">details.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Th</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">is</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">temp</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">version</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">includes</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">the</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New"></FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">modifications</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> too</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">:</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-gb"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-gb"> </SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Arial" SIZE=3D2 COLOR=3D"#000000"> =
&lt;&lt;draft-ietf-ippm-multimetrics-06.txt&gt;&gt; </FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Regards</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Emile</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">-----Message d'origine-----</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">De=A0: Joseph Kopena [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:tjkopena@cs.drexel.edu">mailto:tjkopena@cs.drexel.edu</A>]=
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Envoy=E9=A0</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">: mardi 4 d=E9cembre 2007 01:34</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">=C0=A0</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">: ippm@ietf.org</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Objet=A0: [ippm] Multi-Metrics =
Comments</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"fr"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"fr"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&gt; =
</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Hi all,</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">A number of comments on =
draft-ietf-ippm-multimetrics-05.txt follow.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">They are also available here in slightly easier to =
read HTML form:</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"><A =
HREF=3D"http://gicl.cs.drexel.edu/people/tjkopena/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=3DRea=
ding.Draft-">http://gicl.cs.drexel.edu/people/tjkopena/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=3D=
Reading.Draft-</A></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">ietf-ippm-multimetrics-05</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Thanks</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">!</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">------------</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">! =
draft-ietf-ippm-multimetrics-05</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">!! Content Points</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Sec 2.3, &quot;A metric is said to be spatial if =
one of the hosts</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">(measurement collection points) involved is neither =
the source nor the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">destination of the measured packet.&quot; should =
perhaps be &quot;nor a</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">destination of the measured packet&quot; in order =
to not preclude spatial</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">metrics from being applied to one-to-group metrics =
in the future.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> </SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Sec 4.1.5, &quot;One consequence of these =
un</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">certainties is that times =
of a</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">measure at different hosts shall not be used to =
order hosts on the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">path of a measure;&quot; should perhaps be =
&quot;One consequence of these</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">uncertainties is that times measured at different =
hosts SHALL NOT be</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">used to order hosts on the path of a =
measure;&quot;&nbsp; I'm not sure if that</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">&quot;SHALL NOT&quot; conforms to convention, but =
it should be more clear that</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">this is a significant (and correct) =
directive.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> </SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Reflected as</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> =
</SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">do not guaranty the =
ordering of the hosts &quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Sec</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">tion clarified:</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">the delay looks to decrease: dTi &amp;gt; DTi+1. =
This may occur despite it does not make sense per =
definition:</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Symbol">&#183;<FONT FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">This seem typically du to some clock synchronisation issue. This =
point is discussed in the section 3.7.1. &quot;Errors or =
uncertainties</FONT> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">related to Clocks&quot; of. Consequently, times of a measure at =
different hosts do not guaranty the ordering of the hosts on the path of =
a measure.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Symbol">&#183;<FONT FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">During some change of routes the order of 2 hosts may change on the =
main path;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Symbol">&#183;<FONT FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">The location of the point of i</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">nterest in the device influences the =
result. If the packet is not obs</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">v</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">erved directly on the input interface the delay includes buffering =
time and consequently an uncertainty due to the difference between 'wire =
time' and 'host time'</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Sec 4.2.5 says someth</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">ing about the possibility of a &quot;0&quot; =
appearing in</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">the packet loss sequence after a =
&quot;1.&quot;&nbsp; This sentence is very unclear =
&amp;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">should be fixed.&nbsp; Further, it should be =
elaborated on as to how</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">exactly that scenario could happen.&nbsp; In the =
intuitive understanding</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> =
of</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">packets and paths this isn't possible (at least in =
my view), but I</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">could believe there is some case or architecture =
which might permit</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">it.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Section clarified:</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> </SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">the result includes the sequence 1,0. This may =
occur despite it does not make sense pe</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">r definition:</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Symbol">&#183;<FONT FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">During some change of</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> =
route</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">s</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">a</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> packet may be seen by a host but not by =
it successor on the main path;</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Symbol">&#183;<FONT FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">A</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> packet may not be =
observed in a host due to some buffer or CPU overflow in the point of =
interest;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Symbol">&#183;<FONT FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"> </SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">It should be made more clear in this document how =
Sections 4.1 and 4.3</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">differ.&nbsp; This is as simple as explicitly =
stating early in 4.3 that</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">it's talking about delay variation rather than =
delay.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">These sections differ dramatically. Delay variation =
definit</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">ion =
is based on 2 packets. References differ too. Each metric name must =
introduced separately in a formal way.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Sec 6.1.2 notes that the metric is not necessarily =
tied directly to</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">multicast in order to enable measurement over a =
unicast link.&nbsp; I note</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">that one use of the metrics here would be to make =
comparisons such as</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">multicast versus unicast fan-out.&nbsp; They may =
also have use in overlay</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">multicast and other architectures not directly =
based on traditional IP</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">multicast.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Reflected in the motivat</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">ion =
part:</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">and overlay =
multicast</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&quot; added to bullet =
4.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Sec 7 should be reworded in terms of &quot;the =
receiving group&quot; or similar,</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">rather than &quot;the multicast group&quot; due to =
the reasons in Sec 6.1.2 and</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">the previous paragraph here.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Reflected in section 6</FONT><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> and =
7.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">I don't think it's exactly out of scope for the =
document to discuss</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">computation of single value metrics from either =
path or one-to-group</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">metrics.&nbsp; Commentary on how best to handle the =
issues therein, such as</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">packet loss, seem to be something that readers will =
be really looking</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">for in reading this document.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Sorry I miss the meaning. Is it about mixing =
spatial and multicast ?</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">I would also say it's worth considering splitting =
the draft into</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">two---one f</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">or path metrics, one for one-to-group metrics.&nbsp; The =
draft</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">is fairly long, and there's not necessarily a lot =
of overlap between</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">them.&nbsp; For example, I am very interested in =
the multicast metrics but</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">less so in the path metrics.&nbsp; However, it is =
very easy to skip to that</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">section in the current draft and this is not a high =
priority</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">suggestion.&nbsp; Perhaps it would be enough to =
simply note in the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">introduction that they do not build on each other =
and se</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">ctions =
may</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">skipped without loss.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">I =
don't known. The doc is a bit long. Vector and matrix are common to the =
2 family of metrics. 2 docs may be simpler to follow up in WGLC and IESG =
review. That may be discussed during next meeting</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">!! Document Points</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">In general, I don't understand the convention on =
the case given metric</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">names and concepts.&nbsp; They're sometimes in =
upper case and sometimes</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">not.&nbsp; Examples are listed in typographic =
points be</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">low.&nbsp; If there =
is a</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">convention, it's not clear and they come across as =
inconsistent.&nbsp; If</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">there is no convention, they should be more =
consistently (lower)</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">cased.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">I =
use the naming of RFC 2679, 80.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<BR>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Sec 6.1.2, in all previous sections a one line =
description of</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">identifiers is given, but here just the type in =
several cases.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<BR>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">!! Minor Typographic Points</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 2.2, &quot;.. called &quot;points of =
interest&quot;, where one&quot; should be &quot;..</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">called</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> =
&quot;points of interest,&quot; where one&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Not sure in understand.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<BR>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 2.5, odd capitalization of =
&quot;One-to-group&quot; in &quot;Points of interest</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">of One-to-group metrics are the =
intended,&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>
<BR>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 2.7, odd capitalization of =
&quot;One-way&quot; in &quot;For instance, i</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">f One-way</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">delay,&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 2.8, &quot;sampling interval at different =
places in a network at</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">different time&quot; should be &quot;... =
times&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>
<BR>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 3.1, &quot;Spatial measure typically give the =
individual performance</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">of an&quot; should be &quot;Spatial =
measures...&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 3.3, odd capitalization of =
&quot;Group-to-one&quot; and =
&quot;Group-to-group&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">in &quot;measurements on Group-to-one and =
Group-to-group topologies.&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 4.1.2, &quot;i, An integer if the list =
&lt;1,2,...,n&gt; which ordered the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">hosts in the path.&quot;</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> should be &quot;i, An integer in the ordered =
list</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">&lt;1,2,...,n&gt; of hosts in the =
path.&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 4.1.2, &quot;dT* a delay, the one-way delay =
for a measured packet.&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">should be &quot;dT*, a delay, the one-way delay for =
a measured packet.&quot; to</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">be consistent.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 4.1.15, &quot;the delay looks to decrease: =
dTi &gt; DTi+1.&nbsp; This seem</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">typically du&quot; should be &quot;The delay looks =
to decrease: dTi &gt; DTi+1.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">This is frequently due&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 4.1.5 odd capitalization of =
&quot;Clocks&quot; in &quot;Errors or uncertain</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">ties</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">related to Clocks.&quot;&nbsp; This occures again =
in 4.5.&nbsp; I realize it's</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">probably taken directly from the existing =
RFC...</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Not reflected because I quote the title of the section of =
RFC2679.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 4.2, odd capitalization of =
&quot;one-way-Packet-Loss&quot; in &quot;end-</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">to-end</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">one-way-Packet-Loss =
measurements&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 4.2.5, &quot;the result includes the sequence =
1,0.&quot; should be &quot;The</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">result...&quot; but see the above discussion on =
this section.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 4.2.4, &quot;value of Bi of 0 means that dTi =
is a finite</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">value&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">should be &quot;value of 0 for Bi =
means...&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 4.3, &quot;Following we adapt some of them =
and introduce points</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">specific which are to spatial measurement.&quot; =
should be &quot;In the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">following we adapt some of them and introduce =
points specific to</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">spatial measurement.&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 4.4.1, odd capitalization of &quot;Loss&quot; =
in &quot;depending on the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">consistency of the Loss threshold among the =
points&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 4.4.1, &quot;The analysis of such results is =
not deterministic: has</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">the path change?&quot; should be &quot;The analysis =
of such results is not</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">deterministic: Has the path =
changed?&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Reflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 4.4.2 has some obvious issues in: &quot;A =
perfect Host Path Digest</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">(hum! of</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New"> =
cource from the measurement point of view only, that =
is,</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">corresponding to the real path the test packet =
experimented) may</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">include several times several =
hosts&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Right, I reviewed this section introducing an example with micro =
loop.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">(skipped Section 5)</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 6.1, odd capitalization of =
&quot;Definition,&quot; &quot;One-way,&quot; and</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">&quot;Delay&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">in &quot;A Definition for one-to-group One-way =
Delay&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">R</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">eflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 6.1.2, &quot;This parameter is to identify =
the measured traffic&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">should be &quot;... to differentiate the measured =
traffic&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">R</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">eflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 6.1.2, &quot;It is set to be optional&quot; =
should be &quot;It is optional&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">R</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">eflected</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 6.1.3, odd capitalization in &quot;The value =
of a</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">Type-P-one-to-group-One-way-Delay-Vector is a set =
of singletons</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">metrics Type-P-One-way-Delay =
[RFC2679].&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">R</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">efl</FONT><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">e</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">cte</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">d</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* In that same line, &quot;singletons&quot; metrics =
should perhaps be &quot;singleton&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> </SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">R</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">ef</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">lected</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">as a</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">a set of Type-P-One-way-Delay =
singletons</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">&quot;.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">(giving up on the</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> odd capitalization here)</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">I =
take</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">care of</FONT> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">them</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">.</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">B</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">ut</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">several one must me han</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">d</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">led by Lei.</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 7, &quot;They managed to collect&quot; should =
be &quot;They collect&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">R</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">efl</FONT><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">e</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">cte</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">d</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 7, &quot;They can provide sufficient =
information regarding the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">network performance in terms of each receiver and =
guide engineers to</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">identify potential problem</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New"> happened on each branch of a =
multicast</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">routing tree.&quot; should be &quot;They provide =
sufficient information</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">regarding network performance in terms of each =
receiver to guide</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">engineers and identify potential problems on each =
branch of a</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">multicast routing t</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">ree.&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">R</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">efl</FONT><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">e</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">cte</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">d</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 7, &quot;However, these metrics can not&quot; =
should be &quot;... cannot&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">R</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">efl</FONT><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">e</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">cte</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">d</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">* Sec 7, &quot;later one can have statistics&quot; =
should be &quot;latter...&quot;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">R</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">efl</FONT><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">e</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">cte</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">d</FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">(moving on from Section 7)</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">&gt;From here on in the content here is largely =
good and useful, but could</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">be tigh</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">tened up &amp; cleaned a fair bit, so I'll defer =
detailed</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">typographic comments.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">------------</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">--</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">- joe kopena</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">&nbsp; drexel university</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt; </FONT></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier =
New">_______________________________________________</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-us"></SPAN></P>

<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
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<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
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<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-us"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
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Thread-Topic: [ippm]
	FW:	http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt
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From: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" <dromasca@avaya.com>
To: "Benoit Claise" <bclaise@cisco.com>
Cc: Henk Uijterwaal <henk@ripe.net>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
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	FW:	http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt
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Benoit,
=20
Let me say that I am finding this discussion to happen a little bit too
early, but I was answering to the challenge coming from Henk. Usually
such discussions happen when the document became a work item, or even at
WGLC.=20
=20
Section 5 includes A LOT of history which seems to me not relevant and
usually is not included in IETF documents. Maybe a short summary should
be part of Section 6 but not all the details. In section 6 I do not see
the point of 6.5 and 6.6, and have doubts about 6.8, but maybe I should
read this one again to make sure that I understand the issues.=20
=20
The issue with section 8 is that it goes into some details about
measurement methods and devices, rather than metrics. It would be
interested to hear the opinion of other IPPM folks.=20
=20
Dan
=20
=20
=20


________________________________

	From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]=20
	Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 2:05 AM
	To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
	Cc: Henk Uijterwaal; IETF IPPM WG
	Subject: Re: [ippm] FW:
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt
=09
=09
	Dan,
=09
	While I "could" understand your point about section 5, I don't
understand the arguments about removing section 6.
	I thought it gave some useful comparison between IPDV and PDV
when looking at parameters packet loss, path changes, clocks,
composition.
	- "In conclusion, the PDV results are affected by the packet
loss ratio.
	   The IPDV results are affected by both the packet loss ratio
and the
	   packet loss distribution.  In the extreme case of loss of
every other
	   packet, IPDV doesn't provide any results."=20
	   is an important conclusion (just to reference one) for the
selection of the DV method
	- For example, do we NTP for one-way delay and delay variation
is a typical question I receive from customers.
	- Same thing for "how do I combine DV?"
=09
	Again for section 8, I have to explain to customers/partners
	- "You want Poisson because it's random. But it's sometimes
better to get a random start with fixed intervals..."
	- "With PDV, it is sufficient to specify the upper percentile
(e.g.,  99.9%), while it's different with IPDV"
	- How long should I measure etc...
=09
	Considering that this draft is there as an entry point for delay
variation explanations + a series of guidelines (at least this was my
intention) I spent quite some time on these sections. Specifically, if
section 5 is removed, we need to list somewhere the conclusions of the
published papers referenced in section 5. The place would then be the
current section 6. Unless you have a different view?
=09
	Regards, Benoit.
=09
=09

		IMO section 5 and most of section 6 should probably go
away. I am not
		sure that section 8 is within the 'traditional' scope of
IPPM.=20
	=09
		Dan
	=09
	=09
		=20
		=20
	=09
		 =20

			-----Original Message-----
			From: Henk Uijterwaal [mailto:henk@ripe.net]=20
			Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 9:23 PM
			To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
			Cc: IETF IPPM WG
			Subject: Re: [ippm] FW: Draft=20
=09
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt
		=09
			Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote:
			   =20

				 If the question that is being asked is
'do you believe that the=20
				document' is in good shape to become an
IPPM WG work=20
				     =20

			item?', my answer=20
			   =20

				is 'yes'.
				     =20

			We already asked that one, the next question is:
do you agree=20
			with the contents, what should be
added/changed/removed?
		=09
			Henk
		=09
		=09
			   =20

				Dan
			=09
			=09
			=09
				=20
			=09
				-----Original Message-----
				From: Henk Uijterwaal
[mailto:henk@ripe.net]
				Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 12:26 PM
				Subject: Draft
=09
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt
			=09
				Hi
			=09
				Last year, you expressed interest in
			=09
				  =20
				     =20

=09
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt
			   =20

				and supported it as an IPPM WG document.
Did you read the latest=20
				version of the document and if so, can
you please post=20
				     =20

			comments to the=20
			   =20

				IPPM@ietf.org list.  Even a "yes, I've
read it and it is fine" is=20
				already very helpful.
			=09
				Thanks!
			=09
				Henk
=09
_______________________________________________
				ippm mailing list
				ippm@ietf.org
=09
http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
			=09
				     =20

			--
=09
--------------------------------------------------------------
			----------------
			Henk Uijterwaal                           Email:

			henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net
			RIPE Network Coordination Centre         =20
			http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk
			P.O.Box 10096          Singel 258         Phone:
+31.20.5354414
			1001 EB Amsterdam      1016 AB Amsterdam  Fax:
+31.20.5354445
			The Netherlands        The Netherlands
Mobile: +31.6.55861746
=09
--------------------------------------------------------------
			----------------
		=09
			Is one of the choices leaving the office open?
			                                       Alan
Greenspan on the=20
			next elections
		=09
			This email was protected during delivery to
Avaya with TLS encryption
		=09
		=09
			   =20

		_______________________________________________
		ippm mailing list
		ippm@ietf.org
		http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
		 =20



------_=_NextPart_001_01C86D66.8009E61C
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	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.3243" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY text=3D#000000 bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D689124010-12022008><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2><STRONG><EM>Benoit,</EM></STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D689124010-12022008><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2><STRONG><EM></EM></STRONG></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D689124010-12022008><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2><STRONG><EM>Let me say that I am finding this discussion to =
happen a=20
little bit too early, but I was answering to the challenge coming from =
Henk.=20
Usually such discussions happen when the document became a work item, or =
even at=20
WGLC. </EM></STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D689124010-12022008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D689124010-12022008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Section 5 includes A LOT of history which&nbsp;seems to =
me&nbsp;not=20
relevant and usually is not included in IETF documents. Maybe a short =
summary=20
should be part of Section 6 but not all the details. In section 6 I do =
not see=20
the point of 6.5 and 6.6, and have doubts about 6.8, but maybe I should =
read=20
this one again to make sure that I understand the issues.=20
</FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D689124010-12022008><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2><STRONG><EM>The issue with section 8 is that it goes into some =
details=20
about measurement methods and devices, rather than metrics. It would be=20
interested to hear the opinion of other IPPM folks.=20
</EM></STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D689124010-12022008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D689124010-12022008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Dan</FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D689124010-12022008><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></EM></STRONG></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Benoit Claise =
[mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]=20
  <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 12, 2008 2:05 AM<BR><B>To:</B> =
Romascanu,=20
  Dan (Dan)<BR><B>Cc:</B> Henk Uijterwaal; IETF IPPM =
WG<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:=20
  [ippm] FW:=20
  =
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt<BR></=
FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>Dan,<BR><BR>While I "could" understand your point about =
section 5,=20
  I don't understand the arguments about removing section 6.<BR>I =
thought it=20
  gave some useful comparison between IPDV and PDV when looking at =
parameters=20
  packet loss, path changes, clocks, composition.<BR>- "In conclusion, =
the PDV=20
  results are affected by the packet loss ratio.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; The =
IPDV=20
  results are affected by both the packet loss ratio and =
the<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  packet loss distribution.&nbsp; In the extreme case of loss of every=20
  other<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; packet, IPDV doesn't provide any results."=20
  <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; is an important conclusion (just to reference one) =
for the=20
  selection of the DV method<BR>- For example, do we NTP for one-way =
delay and=20
  delay variation is a typical question I receive from customers.<BR>- =
Same=20
  thing for "how do I combine DV?"<BR><BR>Again for section 8, I have to =
explain=20
  to customers/partners<BR>- "You want Poisson because it's random. But =
it's=20
  sometimes better to get a random start with fixed intervals..."<BR>- =
"With=20
  PDV, it is sufficient to specify the upper percentile (e.g.,&nbsp; =
99.9%),=20
  while it's different with IPDV"<BR>- How long should I measure=20
  etc...<BR><BR>Considering that this draft is there as an entry point =
for delay=20
  variation explanations + a series of guidelines (at least this was my=20
  intention) I spent quite some time on these sections. Specifically, if =
section=20
  5 is removed, we need to list somewhere the conclusions of the =
published=20
  papers referenced in section 5. The place would then be the current =
section 6.=20
  Unless you have a different view?<BR><BR>Regards, Benoit.<BR><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  =
cite=3DmidEDC652A26FB23C4EB6384A4584434A048BF81C@307622ANEX5.global.avaya=
.com=20
  type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">IMO section 5 and most of section 6 =
should probably go away. I am not
sure that section 8 is within the 'traditional' scope of IPPM.=20

Dan


=20
=20

  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">-----Original Message-----
From: Henk Uijterwaal [<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =
href=3D"mailto:henk@ripe.net">mailto:henk@ripe.net</A>]=20
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 9:23 PM
To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
Cc: IETF IPPM WG
Subject: Re: [ippm] FW: Draft=20
<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.t=
xt">http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt</=
A>

Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote:
    </PRE>
      <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D""> If the question that is =
being asked is 'do you believe that the=20
document' is in good shape to become an IPPM WG work=20
      </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D"">item?', my answer=20
    </PRE>
      <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">is 'yes'.
      </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D"">We already asked that one, the =
next question is: do you agree=20
with the contents, what should be added/changed/removed?

Henk


    </PRE>
      <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">Dan



=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Henk Uijterwaal [<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =
href=3D"mailto:henk@ripe.net">mailto:henk@ripe.net</A>]
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 12:26 PM
Subject: Draft
<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.t=
xt">http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt</=
A>

Hi

Last year, you expressed interest in

  =20
      </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.t=
xt">http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt</=
A>
    </PRE>
      <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">and supported it as an =
IPPM WG document.  Did you read the latest=20
version of the document and if so, can you please post=20
      </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D"">comments to the=20
    </PRE>
      <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D""><A =
class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated =
href=3D"mailto:IPPM@ietf.org">IPPM@ietf.org</A> list.  Even a "yes, I've =
read it and it is fine" is=20
already very helpful.

Thanks!

Henk
_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated =
href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org">ippm@ietf.org</A>
<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm">http://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/ippm</A>

      </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D"">--
--------------------------------------------------------------
----------------
Henk Uijterwaal                           Email:=20
henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net
RIPE Network Coordination Centre         =20
<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =
href=3D"http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk">http://www.amsterdamned.org/~h=
enk</A>
P.O.Box 10096          Singel 258         Phone: +31.20.5354414
1001 EB Amsterdam      1016 AB Amsterdam  Fax: +31.20.5354445
The Netherlands        The Netherlands    Mobile: +31.6.55861746
--------------------------------------------------------------
----------------

Is one of the choices leaving the office open?
                                       Alan Greenspan on the=20
next elections

This email was protected during delivery to Avaya with TLS encryption


    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE =
wrap=3D""><!---->_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated =
href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org">ippm@ietf.org</A>
<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm">http://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/ippm</A>
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Dan,

> */Let me say that I am finding this discussion to happen a little bit 
> too early, but I was answering to the challenge coming from Henk. 
> Usually such discussions happen when the document became a work item, or 
> even at WGLC. /*

The document has been accepted as a WG item last year.  Al/Benoit haven't
submitted a version with a draft-ietf-ippm-... filename but I understand
that this will be done before the Philly cut-off date.

Anyway, we can/should discuss the content!

Henk


> *//* 
> */Section 5 includes A LOT of history which seems to me not relevant and 
> usually is not included in IETF documents. Maybe a short summary should 
> be part of Section 6 but not all the details. In section 6 I do not see 
> the point of 6.5 and 6.6, and have doubts about 6.8, but maybe I should 
> read this one again to make sure that I understand the issues. /*
> *//* 
> */The issue with section 8 is that it goes into some details about 
> measurement methods and devices, rather than metrics. It would be 
> interested to hear the opinion of other IPPM folks. /*
> *//* 
> */Dan/*
> *//* 
>  
>  
> 
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From:* Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
>     *Sent:* Tuesday, February 12, 2008 2:05 AM
>     *To:* Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>     *Cc:* Henk Uijterwaal; IETF IPPM WG
>     *Subject:* Re: [ippm] FW:
>     http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt
> 
>     Dan,
> 
>     While I "could" understand your point about section 5, I don't
>     understand the arguments about removing section 6.
>     I thought it gave some useful comparison between IPDV and PDV when
>     looking at parameters packet loss, path changes, clocks, composition.
>     - "In conclusion, the PDV results are affected by the packet loss ratio.
>        The IPDV results are affected by both the packet loss ratio and the
>        packet loss distribution.  In the extreme case of loss of every other
>        packet, IPDV doesn't provide any results."
>        is an important conclusion (just to reference one) for the
>     selection of the DV method
>     - For example, do we NTP for one-way delay and delay variation is a
>     typical question I receive from customers.
>     - Same thing for "how do I combine DV?"
> 
>     Again for section 8, I have to explain to customers/partners
>     - "You want Poisson because it's random. But it's sometimes better
>     to get a random start with fixed intervals..."
>     - "With PDV, it is sufficient to specify the upper percentile
>     (e.g.,  99.9%), while it's different with IPDV"
>     - How long should I measure etc...
> 
>     Considering that this draft is there as an entry point for delay
>     variation explanations + a series of guidelines (at least this was
>     my intention) I spent quite some time on these sections.
>     Specifically, if section 5 is removed, we need to list somewhere the
>     conclusions of the published papers referenced in section 5. The
>     place would then be the current section 6. Unless you have a
>     different view?
> 
>     Regards, Benoit.
> 
>>     IMO section 5 and most of section 6 should probably go away. I am not
>>     sure that section 8 is within the 'traditional' scope of IPPM. 
>>
>>     Dan
>>
>>
>>      
>>      
>>
>>       
>>>     -----Original Message-----
>>>     From: Henk Uijterwaal [mailto:henk@ripe.net] 
>>>     Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 9:23 PM
>>>     To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan)
>>>     Cc: IETF IPPM WG
>>>     Subject: Re: [ippm] FW: Draft 
>>>     http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt
>>>
>>>     Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote:
>>>         
>>>>      If the question that is being asked is 'do you believe that the 
>>>>     document' is in good shape to become an IPPM WG work 
>>>>           
>>>     item?', my answer 
>>>         
>>>>     is 'yes'.
>>>>           
>>>     We already asked that one, the next question is: do you agree 
>>>     with the contents, what should be added/changed/removed?
>>>
>>>     Henk
>>>
>>>
>>>         
>>>>     Dan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>
>>>>     -----Original Message-----
>>>>     From: Henk Uijterwaal [mailto:henk@ripe.net]
>>>>     Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 12:26 PM
>>>>     Subject: Draft
>>>>     http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt
>>>>
>>>>     Hi
>>>>
>>>>     Last year, you expressed interest in
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>           
>>>     http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-morton-ippm-delay-var-as-04.txt
>>>         
>>>>     and supported it as an IPPM WG document.  Did you read the latest 
>>>>     version of the document and if so, can you please post 
>>>>           
>>>     comments to the 
>>>         
>>>>     IPPM@ietf.org list.  Even a "yes, I've read it and it is fine" is 
>>>>     already very helpful.
>>>>
>>>>     Thanks!
>>>>
>>>>     Henk
>>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>>     ippm mailing list
>>>>     ippm@ietf.org
>>>>     http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>>>>
>>>>           
>>>     --
>>>     --------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>     Henk Uijterwaal                           Email: 
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>>>     RIPE Network Coordination Centre          
>>>     http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk
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>>>     The Netherlands        The Netherlands    Mobile: +31.6.55861746
>>>     --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>     ----------------
>>>
>>>     Is one of the choices leaving the office open?
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From ippm-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Feb 12 03:28:21 2008
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IPPM Group,

In Vancouver, I promised to dig up work on comparing implementations
of metrics that I (together with Rene, Sunil and Matt) did and presented
at PAM2000.  Here are the slides:

    http://amsterdamned.org/~henk/PAM2000.pdf

Question to the list: is a simple visual comparison sufficient for our
purposes (see slide 28), or should we do something more (see slide 33).

Henk

-- 
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Henk Uijterwaal                           Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net
RIPE Network Coordination Centre          http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk
P.O.Box 10096          Singel 258         Phone: +31.20.5354414
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From ippm-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Feb 12 11:58:29 2008
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Subject: [ippm] RFC 5136 on Defining Network Capacity
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A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.

        
        RFC 5136

        Title:      Defining Network Capacity 
        Author:     P. Chimento, J. Ishac
        Status:     Informational
        Date:       February 2008
        Mailbox:    Philip.Chimento@jhuapl.edu, 
                    jishac@nasa.gov
        Pages:      14
        Characters: 30682
        Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:   None

        I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-ippm-bw-capacity-05.txt

        URL:        http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5136.txt

Measuring capacity is a task that sounds simple, but in reality can
be quite complex.  In addition, the lack of a unified nomenclature on
this subject makes it increasingly difficult to properly build, test,
and use techniques and tools built around these constructs.  This
document provides definitions for the terms 'Capacity' and 'Available
Capacity' related to IP traffic traveling between a source and
destination in an IP network.  By doing so, we hope to provide a
common framework for the discussion and analysis of a diverse set of
current and future estimation techniques.  This memo provides information
for the Internet community.

This document is a product of the IP Performance Metrics
Working Group of the IETF.


INFORMATIONAL: This memo provides information for the Internet community. 
It does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. Distribution
of this memo is unlimited.

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Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list
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        help: ways_to_get_rfcs

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specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for
unlimited distribution.

Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to
RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG.  Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC
Authors, for further information.


The RFC Editor Team
USC/Information Sciences Institute

...


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From ippm-bounces@ietf.org  Tue Feb 12 23:59:21 2008
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Hello Henk,

I'd like to learn about the calibration or measurement error, when I measure. I can't tell you exactly how to obtain this for IPPM metrics. IPPM should look for a way to characterise this error, rather than just compare implementations. Consider the following: System 1 measures with 0,5% error, System 2 with 10% and System 3 with 0,5% more error then System 2 but showing otherwise similar results as System 2 (distribution etc.). I doubt that it is a useful result of standardisation, if System 2 and 3 of the example are deemed standards conformant whereas System 1 isn't.

If Surveyour produces 2 packets per second and the TTM 3 per minute, the size of the Surveyor sample is 40 times that of the TTM. This causes a different measurement error. Further you discovered a problem with different packet sizes and you further dealt with clock issues (another source of differing errors). I'm not sure whether "visual comparism" is the best way to go. Proposing any other method isn't simmple too (Bradner metric test is one approach, but also not perfect). Does the benchmarking WG have any useful methodology?

Regards,

Ruediger



| -----Original Message-----
| From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On 
| Behalf Of Henk Uijterwaal
| Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 12:30 PM
| To: IETF IPPM WG
| Subject: [ippm] Old work on comparing metrics
| 
| IPPM Group,
| 
| In Vancouver, I promised to dig up work on comparing 
| implementations of metrics that I (together with Rene, Sunil 
| and Matt) did and presented at PAM2000.  Here are the slides:
| 
|     http://amsterdamned.org/~henk/PAM2000.pdf
| 
| Question to the list: is a simple visual comparison 
| sufficient for our purposes (see slide 28), or should we do 
| something more (see slide 33).
| 
| Henk
| 
| --
| --------------------------------------------------------------
| ----------------
| Henk Uijterwaal                           Email: 
| henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net
| RIPE Network Coordination Centre          
| http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk
| P.O.Box 10096          Singel 258         Phone: +31.20.5354414
| 1001 EB Amsterdam      1016 AB Amsterdam  Fax: +31.20.5354445
| The Netherlands        The Netherlands    Mobile: +31.6.55861746
| --------------------------------------------------------------
| ----------------
| 
| Is one of the choices leaving the office open?
|                                        Alan Greenspan on the 
| next elections _______________________________________________
| ippm mailing list
| ippm@ietf.org
| http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
| 
_______________________________________________
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Henk, Ruediger, and all.

I've been thinking about Henk's question since yesterday,
another phrasing might be:
"When we make comparisons between systems in a side-by-side trial,
what's the best way to quantify and report the results?"
Both methods in Henk's slides seem reasonable for Delay,
though we probably need something different for Loss, and other metrics.

Ruediger is pointing-out a weakness of the practical method using
two or more measurement systems and live networks. Without a
trusted or proven measurement made along-side the others, majority rules.

And Ruediger's question,
At 03:01 AM 2/13/2008, Geib, Ruediger wrote:
...Does the benchmarking WG have any useful methodology?

BMWG has the advantage of working in the lab, with conditions
that should be reproducible. So that's one kind of recommendation:
part of the comparison could be based on measurements of
simulated network conditions, in the lab, where repeatability
can be easily quantified. And where specific path conditions should
be easier to create (with network simulators).

There's probably more BMWG ideas to bring to bear on this, too
(still thinking about it).

My main point is this:
I think the goal of the this testing is to show that
the metrics in the RFCs are unambiguously specified.
The methodology used here compares the results
of two or more independent implementations, and that's fine.
But the test conditions need to focus on aspects of the
specification - Does the Poisson stream have the desired
distribution of inter-packet sending times?
Is the Delay singleton definition really First-bit to Last Bit?

IMO, this is about comparing implementations,
in order to test the spec.

regards,
Al

At 03:01 AM 2/13/2008, Geib, Ruediger wrote:
>Hello Henk,
>
>I'd like to learn about the calibration or measurement error, when I 
>measure. I can't tell you exactly how to obtain this for IPPM 
>metrics. IPPM should look for a way to characterise this error, 
>rather than just compare implementations. Consider the following: 
>System 1 measures with 0,5% error, System 2 with 10% and System 3 
>with 0,5% more error then System 2 but showing otherwise similar 
>results as System 2 (distribution etc.). I doubt that it is a useful 
>result of standardisation, if System 2 and 3 of the example are 
>deemed standards conformant whereas System 1 isn't.
>
>If Surveyour produces 2 packets per second and the TTM 3 per minute, 
>the size of the Surveyor sample is 40 times that of the TTM. This 
>causes a different measurement error. Further you discovered a 
>problem with different packet sizes and you further dealt with clock 
>issues (another source of differing errors). I'm not sure whether 
>"visual comparism" is the best way to go. Proposing any other method 
>isn't simmple too (Bradner metric test is one approach, but also not 
>perfect). Does the benchmarking WG have any useful methodology?
>
>Regards,
>
>Ruediger
>
>
>
>| -----Original Message-----
>| From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On
>| Behalf Of Henk Uijterwaal
>| Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 12:30 PM
>| To: IETF IPPM WG
>| Subject: [ippm] Old work on comparing metrics
>|
>| IPPM Group,
>|
>| In Vancouver, I promised to dig up work on comparing
>| implementations of metrics that I (together with Rene, Sunil
>| and Matt) did and presented at PAM2000.  Here are the slides:
>|
>|     http://amsterdamned.org/~henk/PAM2000.pdf
>|
>| Question to the list: is a simple visual comparison
>| sufficient for our purposes (see slide 28), or should we do
>| something more (see slide 33).
>|
>| Henk
>|
>| --
>| --------------------------------------------------------------
>| ----------------
>| Henk Uijterwaal                           Email:
>| henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net
>| RIPE Network Coordination Centre
>| http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk
>| P.O.Box 10096          Singel 258         Phone: +31.20.5354414
>| 1001 EB Amsterdam      1016 AB Amsterdam  Fax: +31.20.5354445
>| The Netherlands        The Netherlands    Mobile: +31.6.55861746
>| --------------------------------------------------------------
>| ----------------
>|
>| Is one of the choices leaving the office open?
>|                                        Alan Greenspan on the
>| next elections _______________________________________________
>| ippm mailing list
>| ippm@ietf.org
>| http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>|
>_______________________________________________
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Geib, Ruediger wrote:
> Hello Henk,
> 
> I'd like to learn about the calibration or measurement error, when I measure.
> I can't tell you exactly how to obtain this for IPPM metrics. IPPM should
> look for a way to characterise this error, rather than just compare
> implementations. 

This is what RFC 2679 says one should do: give an estimate of the
measurement error.


 > Consider the following: System 1 measures with 0,5% error,
> System 2 with 10% and System 3 with 0,5% more error then System 2 but showing
> otherwise similar results as System 2 (distribution etc.). I doubt that it is
> a useful result of standardisation, if System 2 and 3 of the example are
> deemed standards conformant whereas System 1 isn't.

I'm not quite sure how this can happen:

   1 measures 100 ms with 0.5 ms error.
   2 measures 105 ms with 10 ms error.
   3 measures 110 ms with 0.5 ms error.

A comparison will show that results of (1) and (2) are consistent, and that
(2) and (3) are consistent, but the group (1, 2, 3) produces inconsistent
results.  How can one say that (1) is the bad guy in this sample?



> If Surveyour produces 2 packets per second and the TTM 3 per minute, the size
> of the Surveyor sample is 40 times that of the TTM. This causes a different
> measurement error.

I doubt it.  2 packets/second is 80 bytes/second and this is only a small
fraction of the capacity of the link.

> Further you discovered a problem with different packet
> sizes and you further dealt with clock issues (another source of differing
> errors).

Correct.

  I'm not sure whether "visual comparism" is the best way to go.
> Proposing any other method isn't simmple too (Bradner metric test is one
> approach, but also not perfect). Does the benchmarking WG have any useful
> methodology?

What the visual method (and R^2 method) try to do is, is to include the
overall shape of the distribution: i.e. both start measuring at 9am and
find (say) 20 ms, at 10am something changes and delays go up to 30 ms,
at 11 am, things change back and delays go down again.  If both tools
show this, this is a good indication that the implementations measure
the same thing.  We somehow have to quantify this and that his what
the 2 methods try to accomplish.

Henk



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Al Morton wrote:
> Henk, Ruediger, and all.
> 
> I've been thinking about Henk's question since yesterday,
> another phrasing might be:
> "When we make comparisons between systems in a side-by-side trial,
> what's the best way to quantify and report the results?"
> Both methods in Henk's slides seem reasonable for Delay,
> though we probably need something different for Loss, and other metrics.
> 
> Ruediger is pointing-out a weakness of the practical method using
> two or more measurement systems and live networks. Without a
> trusted or proven measurement made along-side the others, majority rules.
> 
> And Ruediger's question,
> At 03:01 AM 2/13/2008, Geib, Ruediger wrote:
> ...Does the benchmarking WG have any useful methodology?
> 
> BMWG has the advantage of working in the lab, with conditions
> that should be reproducible. So that's one kind of recommendation:
> part of the comparison could be based on measurements of
> simulated network conditions, in the lab, where repeatability
> can be easily quantified. And where specific path conditions should
> be easier to create (with network simulators).

This sort-of what we tried to do back in 2000.  Install equipment
at both ends of a connection and send packets along the path at the
same time, then compare the result.  We could have done this in
the lab with just a piece of cable.





> 
> There's probably more BMWG ideas to bring to bear on this, too
> (still thinking about it).
> 
> My main point is this:
> I think the goal of the this testing is to show that
> the metrics in the RFCs are unambiguously specified.
> The methodology used here compares the results
> of two or more independent implementations, and that's fine.
> But the test conditions need to focus on aspects of the
> specification - Does the Poisson stream have the desired
> distribution of inter-packet sending times?
> Is the Delay singleton definition really First-bit to Last Bit?

This looks sounds like an audit of the code.  (Generate a poisson
distribution and see if it really is poisson, check if one
measures 1st to last bit, ...).   This would require a checklist
and somebody checking things off.

Henk




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Hello Henk, 

| > Consider the following: System 1 measures with 0,5% error,
| > System 2 with 10% and System 3 with 0,5% more error then 
| > System 2 but showing otherwise similar results as System 2 
| > (distribution etc.). I doubt that it is a useful result 
| > of standardisation, if System 2 and 3 of the example are 
| > deemed standards conformant whereas System 1 isn't.
| 
| I'm not quite sure how this can happen:
| 
|    1 measures 100 ms with 0.5 ms error.
|    2 measures 105 ms with 10 ms error.
|    3 measures 110 ms with 0.5 ms error.

To clarify my point: Lets pick averages 100, 110 and 110,5 
with similar variations for each one. 

| > If Surveyour produces 2 packets per second and the TTM 3 
| > per minute, the size of the Surveyor sample is 40 times 
| > that of the TTM. This causes a different measurement error.
| 
| I doubt it.  2 packets/second is 80 bytes/second and this is 
| only a small fraction of the capacity of the link.

The sample size of all packets travelling from A to B within 
one minute is 120 for Surveyor and 3 for TTM.

| What the visual method (and R^2 method) try to do is, is to 
| include the overall shape of the distribution: i.e. both 
| start measuring at 9am and find (say) 20 ms, at 10am 
| something changes and delays go up to 30 ms, at 11 am, things 
| change back and delays go down again.  If both tools show 
| this, this is a good indication that the implementations 
| measure the same thing.  We somehow have to quantify this and 
| that his what the 2 methods try to accomplish.

The sample size impacts the measurement error and the average 
temporal distance influences the kind of events you can measure. 
This again may influence the results (loss is an easily 
understandable metric for this) To recognise a temporal event, 
you must measure at least with twice the frequency of that 
event. Looking at the above, Surveyor may capture more fine 
grained delay events than TTM. If present, they may cause 
different results (queuing comes to my mind).

While I agree that a look at the results shows that the 
distributions are similar, I'm not sure, whether the method 
can be generalised unconditionally. The conditions for which 
this method may be applied should be mentioned.

Regards,

Ruediger
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<body>
Dan,<br><br>
Just to weigh-in with my view:<br><br>
I've given this paper to many people, and most do not <br>
participate in IETF activities.&nbsp; The feedback has been<br>
entirely positive - this is a successful entry-level memo.<br><br>
Section 5 performs a useful service for the reader: it condenses<br>
comparisons from several sources (some which are not readily
available)<br>
into several pages of relevant info, and brings the comparisons <br>
up to date where necessary. Perhaps it could move to an Appendix,<br>
but it will disturb the flow: <br>
intro - tasks - definitions - background - new comparisons -
conclusions<br><br>
Section 6 performs the analyses that support the new conclusions<br>
in section 7.&nbsp; In theory, we could just present the table in
section<br>
7.4 as the &quot;Applicability Statement&quot;, but it would leave room
for <br>
much interpretation and confusion.&nbsp; The purpose of this memo is
to<br>
put to rest as much controversy as possible, and the supporting
detail<br>
is needed to do that.<br><br>
That said, I too am interested in comments of others, since<br>
all comments up till now have asked to expand the details <br>
included in this memo.<br><br>
regards,<br>
Al<br><br>
At 06:00 AM 2/12/2008, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Content-class:
urn:content-classes:message<br>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>
boundary=&quot;----_=_NextPart_001_01C86D66.8009E61C&quot;<br><br>
<font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2 color="#0000FF"><b><i>Benoit,<br>
</i></b></font>&nbsp;<br>
<font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2 color="#0000FF"><b><i>Let me say
that I am finding this discussion to happen a little bit too early, but I
was answering to the challenge coming from Henk. Usually such discussions
happen when the document became a work item, or even at WGLC. <br>
</i></b></font>&nbsp;<br>
<font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2 color="#0000FF"><b><i>Section 5
includes A LOT of history which seems to me not relevant and usually is
not included in IETF documents. Maybe a short summary should be part of
Section 6 but not all the details. In section 6 I do not see the point of
6.5 and 6.6, and have doubts about 6.8, but maybe I should read this one
again to make sure that I understand the issues. <br>
</i></b></font>&nbsp;<br>
<font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2 color="#0000FF"><b><i>The issue with
section 8 is that it goes into some details about measurement methods and
devices, rather than metrics. It would be interested to hear the opinion
of other IPPM folks. <br>
</i></b></font>&nbsp;<br>
<font face="Arial, Helvetica" size=2 color="#0000FF"><b><i>Dan<br>
</i></b></font>&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;</blockquote></body>
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At 03:31 PM 2/14/2008, Al wrote:
>...the table in section 7.4

make that 7.3



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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.

	Title           : More Features for TWAMP
	Author(s)       : A. Morton, K. Hedayat
	Filename        : draft-morton-ippm-more-twamp-00.txt
	Pages           : 9
	Date            : 2008-02-14

The IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group is completing its work
on TWAMP - the Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol.  This memo
describes additional features for TWAMP, such as the ability to use
different security modes in the TWAMP-Control and TWAMP-Test
protocols.

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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : IP Performance Metrics (IPPM) for spatial and multicast
	Author(s)       : E. Stephan, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ippm-multimetrics-06.txt
	Pages           : 57
	Date            : 2008-02-15

The IETF IP Performance Metrics (IPPM) working group has standardized
metrics for measuring end-to-end performance between two points.
This memo defines two new categories of metrics that extend the
coverage to multiple measurement points.  It defines spatial metrics
for measuring the performance of segments of a source to destination
path, and metrics for measuring the performance between a source and
many destinations in multiparty communications (e.g., a multicast
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Subject: [ippm] RFC 5136 on Defining Network Capacity
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A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.

        
        RFC 5136

        Title:      Defining Network Capacity 
        Author:     P. Chimento, J. Ishac
        Status:     Informational
        Date:       February 2008
        Mailbox:    Philip.Chimento@jhuapl.edu, 
                    jishac@nasa.gov
        Pages:      14
        Characters: 30682
        Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso:   None

        I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-ippm-bw-capacity-05.txt

        URL:        http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5136.txt

Measuring capacity is a task that sounds simple, but in reality can
be quite complex.  In addition, the lack of a unified nomenclature on
this subject makes it increasingly difficult to properly build, test,
and use techniques and tools built around these constructs.  This
document provides definitions for the terms 'Capacity' and 'Available
Capacity' related to IP traffic traveling between a source and
destination in an IP network.  By doing so, we hope to provide a
common framework for the discussion and analysis of a diverse set of
current and future estimation techniques.  This memo provides information
for the Internet community.

This document is a product of the IP Performance Metrics
Working Group of the IETF.


INFORMATIONAL: This memo provides information for the Internet community. 
It does not specify an Internet standard of any kind. Distribution
of this memo is unlimited.

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Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to
RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG.  Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC
Authors, for further information.


The RFC Editor Team
USC/Information Sciences Institute

...


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From ippm-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Feb 18 16:08:53 2008
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Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:08:42 -0800
From: "Murtaza Chiba" <mchiba@gmail.com>
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Hi,
   I wanted to inquire if there are any reference implementations being
developed for TWAMP?   It would be great if there is an open source one.
Also, is there going to be any interoperability bake-off in the near future?


Thanks and Regards,
-Murtaza

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Hi,<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; I wanted to inquire if there are any reference implementations being developed for TWAMP?&nbsp;&nbsp; It would be great if there is an open source one.&nbsp;&nbsp; Also, is there going to be any interoperability bake-off in the near future?<br>
<br><br>Thanks and Regards,<br>-Murtaza<br>

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directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Packet Delay Variation Applicability Statement
	Author(s)	: B. Claise
	Filename	: draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as-00.txt
	Pages		: 39
	Date		: 2008-2-17
	
Packet delay variation metrics appear in many different standards
   documents.  The metric definition in RFC 3393 has considerable
   flexibility, and it allows multiple formulations of delay variation
   through the specification of different packet selection functions.

   Although flexibility provides wide coverage and room for new ideas,
   it can make comparisons of independent implementations more
   difficult.  Two different formulations of delay variation have come
   into wide use in the context of active measurements.  This memo
   examines a range of circumstances for active measurements of delay
   variation and their uses, and recommends which of the two forms is
   best matched to particular conditions and tasks.

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This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Information Model and XML Data Model for Traceroute Measurements
	Author(s)       : S. Niccolini, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ippm-storetraceroutes-08.txt
	Pages           : 47
	Date            : 2008-02-25

This document describes a standard way to store the configuration and
the results of traceroute measurements.  This document first of all
describes the tool itself; afterwards, the common information model
is defined dividing the information elements in two semantically
separated groups (configuration elements and results ones).  Moreover
an additional element is defined to relate configuration elements and
results ones by means of a common unique identifier.  On the basis of
the information model a data model based on XML is defined to store
the results of traceroute measurements.

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From ippm-bounces@ietf.org  Mon Feb 25 05:50:43 2008
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IPPM group,

This is a WGLC for the draft: draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-06.txt

The draft has been discussed extensively in this group and appears to
to be stable by now.  We like to start a WGLC in order to move it forward.
Please raise any remaining issues by Friday, March 14, 9:00 UTC.

An URL for the draft is:

   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-06.txt


Matt & Henk


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Spatial Composition of Metrics
	Author(s)       : A. Morton, E. Stephan
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ippm-spatial-composition-06.txt
	Pages           : 25
	Date            : 2008-02-25

This memo utilizes IPPM metrics that are applicable to both complete
paths and sub-paths, and defines relationships to compose a complete
path metric from the sub-path metrics with some accuracy w.r.t. the
actual metrics.  This is called Spatial Composition in RFC 2330.  The
memo refers to the Framework for Metric Composition, and provides
background and motivation for combining metrics to derive others.
The descriptions of several composed metrics and statistics
follow.Requirements Language

The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT",
"SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this
document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119 [RFC2119].

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Hi all,

The agenda for the IPPM meeting at the next IETF is now online at:

   http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/08mar/agenda/ippm.txt

Let me know if you want to add something,

Henk & Matt

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Henk Uijterwaal                           Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net
RIPE Network Coordination Centre          http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk
P.O.Box 10096          Singel 258         Phone: +31.20.5354414
1001 EB Amsterdam      1016 AB Amsterdam  Fax: +31.20.5354445
The Netherlands        The Netherlands    Mobile: +31.6.55861746
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Is one of the choices leaving the office open?
                                       Alan Greenspan on the next elections
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