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From: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>
To: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>, "vijayr@arista.com" <vijayr@arista.com>
CC: "draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org>,  IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>, Hugh Holbrook <holbrook@arista.com>, "OU, Heidi" <heidi.ou@alibaba-inc.com>, Surendra Anubolu <surendra.anubolu@broadcom.com>, "bew.stds@gmail.com" <bew.stds@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06
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 Dec 2018 23:19:33 -0500
From: "Brian Weis (bew)" <bew@cisco.com>
To: John Lemon <john.lemon@broadcom.com>
CC: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>, "Shwetha Bhandari
 (shwethab)" <shwethab@cisco.com>, Tal Mizrahi <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com>,
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 <gbarak@mellanox.com>, Aviv Kfir <avivk@mellanox.com>, "Ramesh Sivakolundu
 (sramesh)" <sramesh@cisco.com>, "bew.stds@gmail.com" <bew.stds@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: IOAM GRE Encapsulation Question
Thread-Topic: IOAM GRE Encapsulation Question
Thread-Index: AQHUka0yMlK8ga53gk6b+WY2TeDk8aV69hwAgAEyioCABpgBgA==
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 04:19:33 +0000
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--_004_BYAPR11MB258474DCACF2AD680202CAA2DABE0BYAPR11MB2584namp_--


From nobody Mon Sep  2 04:29:48 2019
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From: Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
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Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 13:29:35 +0200
Cc: "draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry.all@ietf.org>,  IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>, Michelle Cotton <michelle.cotton@iana.org>
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To: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <acm@research.att.com>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] AD review of draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry-11
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Hi Al,

Thanks for the background info. Sorry, I should have explained myself =
better. However, I don=E2=80=99t have a strong opinion on which status =
we end up with but I would really like to make sure that the intended =
status is well explained in the shepherd write-up in order to provided =
the other ADs the needed background information during IESG review.

My think was that this document does actually not specify any new metric =
and as the registry only requires =E2=80=9CExpert Review=E2=80=9D, =
informational felt more natural for me. However, this is for the working =
group to decide!

Mirja



> On 30. Aug 2019, at 22:20, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) =
<acm@research.att.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Mirja,
>=20
> Thanks for reviewing these two memos,=20
> registry and initial contents. They added a lot
> of pages to your review load.
>=20
> I don't recollect a list discussion on=20
> whether PS or Info, but years ago we decided
> that all metric RFCs would go on the Standards Track,
> and devised ways to evaluate whether they should=20
> advance based on testing and ultimately=20
> revised text. So, it seemed natural to make these
> "tighter specifications of the original metrics"
> PS, and that's been the status since 00.
>=20
> With this background, I'm interested to learn why
> Informational seems the right choice to you,
> and we should all think about the implications=20
> of Info or PS for the metrics in this=20
> draft-*-initial-registry.
>=20
> regards,
> Al
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2019 11:47 AM
>> To: draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry.all@ietf.org
>> Cc: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>; Michelle Cotton
>> <michelle.cotton@iana.org>
>> Subject: AD review of draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry-11
>>=20
>> Hi authors, hi all,
>>=20
>> We need to discuss at least one bigger question on the intended =
status
>> before we  can move ahead. However, as you can seen I have more
>> questions/comments below.
>>=20
>> The bigger status question first:
>> The intended status is PS. The shepherd write-up does not provide any
>> additional information about why this status is appropriate. I would
>> assume that informational is actually more appropriate. I don=E2=80=99t=
 recall out
>> of my head if/when this was discussed and I thought I rather ask than
>> searching the list archive and minutes=E2=80=A6 Is this the right =
status and why?
>> And if so, please reflect in the write-up!
>>=20
>>=20
>> And then a couple more (hopefully) quicker comments/questions:
>>=20
>> - I know this was already reviewed by IANA (Michelle is also =
cc=E2=80=99ed),
>> however, as far as I can see all Administrative Information (Status,
>> Requestor, Revision, and Revision Date) and maybe even the ID don=E2=80=
=99t need
>> to be part of the template because IANA will anyway assign them based =
on
>> the instructions given in draft-ietf-ippm-metric-registry. Or did =
IANA
>> explicitly request to also include these parts?
>>=20
>> - Then for the Change Controller that should usually be the IESG =
rather
>> than the IETF. Did IANA comment on that?
>>=20
>> - And one minor point: I guess the secY part of the name could =
already be
>> filled out, no? However, I should probably have asked that on review =
of
>> draft-ietf-ippm-metric-registry already but I was actually wondering =
if
>> the decision to include the RFC number and section in the metric name =
is
>> appropriate. Can you maybe lay out what the reasons for this are (and
>> maybe also explain in the draft as his might come up again during =
IESG
>> review otherwise)=E2=80=A6?
>>=20
>>=20
>> Then then on references again:
>>=20
>> - This draft references two obsoleted RFCs (RFC2679 and RFC2680). I =
assume
>> this is an oversight and the references need to be updated?
>>=20
>> - Also given you rely heavily on [Trammell-14], I think this needs to =
be a
>> normative reference (and maybe [Strowes] as well?). The more stable
>> pointer for [Trammell-14] is actually here:
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
>> 3A__link.springer.com_chapter_10.1007_978-2D3-2D642-2D54999-2D1-
>> =
5F2&d=3DDwIFaQ&c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3DOfsSu8kTIltVyD1oL72cBw&m=3Dh=
wJZg-
>> =
IdxQ9507aw2mjEKKOSWIEVnc8nwr7B_QiOyCU&s=3DHSEAeC_uI-vofX5ZWPSCH-R4Ph8Gu618=
-
>> YtZJ4pTAgE&e=3D
>> But to be honest the split between normative and informational =
isn=E2=80=99t
>> actually very clear to me here=E2=80=A6?
>>=20
>>=20
>> And on the shepherd write-up:
>>=20
>> It=E2=80=99s indicated that not all authors have replied to the IPR =
question. This
>> need to be checked and respectively reflected in the shepherd =
write-up
>> before we can move ahead!
>>=20
>>=20
>> And some smaller technical questions/nits:
>>=20
>> - Is it correct that T0 in section 4 is defined in both subsections =
4.3.5
>> and 4.4.2?
>>=20
>> - Why is an URI given (only) in section 6.1.3?
>>  Also section 7.1.3 and 8.1.3.: http:\\www.iana.org\ ... <name> -> I
>> think this should be: =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-
>> 3A__www.iana.org_&d=3DDwIFaQ&c=3DLFYZ-
>> o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3DOfsSu8kTIltVyD1oL72cBw&m=3DhwJZg-
>> IdxQ9507aw2mjEKKOSWIEVnc8nwr7B_QiOyCU&s=3D9PuQd07oTFlEt8tWIDYz4c-
>> qFUd4zpyT_7QeckyeAsc&e=3D<name>/
>>=20
>>=20
>> Some more editorial comments/nits:
>>=20
>> - I find it actually unnecessary or rather confusing that most (not =
all)
>> sections start with a sentence/paragraph explaining what the section =
is
>> about (e.g. "Additional (Informational) details for this entry=E2=80=9D=
). I would
>> think this is sufficiently explained in =
draft-ietf-ippm-metric-registry
>> and does not need to be repeated here (in this already long =
document).
>> Also note that section 8.6 inconsistently doesn=E2=80=99t have any =
content while
>> 10.6. says =E2=80=9CNone.=E2=80=9D.
>>=20
>> - Also these comments in section 7 and 8 are probably supposed to be
>> removed:
>> " <insert name of the output type, raw or a selected summary =
statistic>=E2=80=9D
>> =E2=80=A6?
>>=20
>> - I found this in section 10.2.2: "@@@@@ others??=E2=80=9D. I guess =
there is
>> something missing? Also in this part, I don=E2=80=99t think SYN and =
FIN should be
>> set at the same time, no? And rather than providing the Kind and =
Length of
>> the TSopt, I would recommend to provide a pointer to the respective =
RFC.
>>=20
>>=20
>> And finally one/two/three more general question(s) at the end, that I
>> probably should also have asked already on my review for =
draft-ietf-ippm-
>> metric-registry:
>>=20
>> Is it actually intended that basically all the text in this RFC gets
>> copied into the registry? And what is expected to be on the URL page =
then?
>> Wouldn=E2=80=99t it be necessary to also define a format for that =
page in order to
>> be of any use?
>>=20
>>=20
>> Mirja
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20


From nobody Mon Sep  2 07:37:38 2019
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Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang-04.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol (STAMP) Data Model
        Authors         : Greg Mirsky
                          Xiao Min
                          Wei S Luo
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang-04.txt
	Pages           : 35
	Date            : 2019-09-02

Abstract:
   This document specifies the data model for implementations of
   Session-Sender and Session-Reflector for Simple Two-way Active
   Measurement Protocol (STAMP) mode using YANG.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang-04
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang-04

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang-04


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Mon Sep  2 07:43:09 2019
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 16:42:52 +0200
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Subject: [ippm] Fwd:  I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang-04.txt
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Dear All,
based on our discussion, updated Reflector's range of UDP port numbers to
include the User ports.

Regards,
Greg

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 4:38 PM
Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang-04.txt
To: <i-d-announce@ietf.org>
Cc: <ippm@ietf.org>



A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol
(STAMP) Data Model
        Authors         : Greg Mirsky
                          Xiao Min
                          Wei S Luo
        Filename        : draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang-04.txt
        Pages           : 35
        Date            : 2019-09-02

Abstract:
   This document specifies the data model for implementations of
   Session-Sender and Session-Reflector for Simple Two-way Active
   Measurement Protocol (STAMP) mode using YANG.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang-04
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang-04

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang-04


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear All,<div>based on our discussion, updated Reflector&#=
39;s range of UDP port numbers to include the User ports.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>Fro=
m: <span dir=3D"auto">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">inter=
net-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 4:38 PM<br>=
Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang-04.txt<br>To:  &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org">i-d-announce@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>Cc=
:  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org">ippm@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br></div><br>=
<br><br>
A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.<br>
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF.=
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:=
 Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol (STAMP) Data Model<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Greg=
 Mirsky<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Xiao Min<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Wei S Luo<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-iet=
f-ippm-stamp-yang-04.txt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:=
 35<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 :=
 2019-09-02<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document specifies the data model for implementations of<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Session-Sender and Session-Reflector for Simple Two-way Active=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Measurement Protocol (STAMP) mode using YANG.<br>
<br>
<br>
The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang/" re=
l=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-i=
etf-ippm-stamp-yang/</a><br>
<br>
There are also htmlized versions available at:<br>
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang-04" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ip=
pm-stamp-yang-04</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang=
-04" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/=
html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang-04</a><br>
<br>
A diff from the previous version is available at:<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang-0=
4" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=
=3Ddraft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang-04</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br>
<a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
ippm mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ippm@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm</a><br>
</div></div></div>

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From: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>
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Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 17:29:18 +0200
Cc: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <acm@research.att.com>, Michelle Cotton <michelle.cotton@iana.org>, "draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry.all@ietf.org>,  IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] AD review of draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry-11
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hi Mirja,

IIRC there was also an intent to have initial-registry on the standards =
track as it was initially intended (in part) as input to the LMAP WG =
before they changed direction (and closed), and initial-registry was to =
form the basis of the (standard) metrics LMAP would select among.

Cheers,

Brian

> On 2 Sep 2019, at 13:29, Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Al,
>=20
> Thanks for the background info. Sorry, I should have explained myself =
better. However, I don=E2=80=99t have a strong opinion on which status =
we end up with but I would really like to make sure that the intended =
status is well explained in the shepherd write-up in order to provided =
the other ADs the needed background information during IESG review.
>=20
> My think was that this document does actually not specify any new =
metric and as the registry only requires =E2=80=9CExpert Review=E2=80=9D, =
informational felt more natural for me. However, this is for the working =
group to decide!
>=20
> Mirja
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On 30. Aug 2019, at 22:20, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) =
<acm@research.att.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi Mirja,
>>=20
>> Thanks for reviewing these two memos,=20
>> registry and initial contents. They added a lot
>> of pages to your review load.
>>=20
>> I don't recollect a list discussion on=20
>> whether PS or Info, but years ago we decided
>> that all metric RFCs would go on the Standards Track,
>> and devised ways to evaluate whether they should=20
>> advance based on testing and ultimately=20
>> revised text. So, it seemed natural to make these
>> "tighter specifications of the original metrics"
>> PS, and that's been the status since 00.
>>=20
>> With this background, I'm interested to learn why
>> Informational seems the right choice to you,
>> and we should all think about the implications=20
>> of Info or PS for the metrics in this=20
>> draft-*-initial-registry.
>>=20
>> regards,
>> Al
>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2019 11:47 AM
>>> To: draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry.all@ietf.org
>>> Cc: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>; Michelle Cotton
>>> <michelle.cotton@iana.org>
>>> Subject: AD review of draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry-11
>>>=20
>>> Hi authors, hi all,
>>>=20
>>> We need to discuss at least one bigger question on the intended =
status
>>> before we  can move ahead. However, as you can seen I have more
>>> questions/comments below.
>>>=20
>>> The bigger status question first:
>>> The intended status is PS. The shepherd write-up does not provide =
any
>>> additional information about why this status is appropriate. I would
>>> assume that informational is actually more appropriate. I don=E2=80=99=
t recall out
>>> of my head if/when this was discussed and I thought I rather ask =
than
>>> searching the list archive and minutes=E2=80=A6 Is this the right =
status and why?
>>> And if so, please reflect in the write-up!
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> And then a couple more (hopefully) quicker comments/questions:
>>>=20
>>> - I know this was already reviewed by IANA (Michelle is also =
cc=E2=80=99ed),
>>> however, as far as I can see all Administrative Information (Status,
>>> Requestor, Revision, and Revision Date) and maybe even the ID =
don=E2=80=99t need
>>> to be part of the template because IANA will anyway assign them =
based on
>>> the instructions given in draft-ietf-ippm-metric-registry. Or did =
IANA
>>> explicitly request to also include these parts?
>>>=20
>>> - Then for the Change Controller that should usually be the IESG =
rather
>>> than the IETF. Did IANA comment on that?
>>>=20
>>> - And one minor point: I guess the secY part of the name could =
already be
>>> filled out, no? However, I should probably have asked that on review =
of
>>> draft-ietf-ippm-metric-registry already but I was actually wondering =
if
>>> the decision to include the RFC number and section in the metric =
name is
>>> appropriate. Can you maybe lay out what the reasons for this are =
(and
>>> maybe also explain in the draft as his might come up again during =
IESG
>>> review otherwise)=E2=80=A6?
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Then then on references again:
>>>=20
>>> - This draft references two obsoleted RFCs (RFC2679 and RFC2680). I =
assume
>>> this is an oversight and the references need to be updated?
>>>=20
>>> - Also given you rely heavily on [Trammell-14], I think this needs =
to be a
>>> normative reference (and maybe [Strowes] as well?). The more stable
>>> pointer for [Trammell-14] is actually here:
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
>>> 3A__link.springer.com_chapter_10.1007_978-2D3-2D642-2D54999-2D1-
>>> =
5F2&d=3DDwIFaQ&c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3DOfsSu8kTIltVyD1oL72cBw&m=3Dh=
wJZg-
>>> =
IdxQ9507aw2mjEKKOSWIEVnc8nwr7B_QiOyCU&s=3DHSEAeC_uI-vofX5ZWPSCH-R4Ph8Gu618=
-
>>> YtZJ4pTAgE&e=3D
>>> But to be honest the split between normative and informational =
isn=E2=80=99t
>>> actually very clear to me here=E2=80=A6?
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> And on the shepherd write-up:
>>>=20
>>> It=E2=80=99s indicated that not all authors have replied to the IPR =
question. This
>>> need to be checked and respectively reflected in the shepherd =
write-up
>>> before we can move ahead!
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> And some smaller technical questions/nits:
>>>=20
>>> - Is it correct that T0 in section 4 is defined in both subsections =
4.3.5
>>> and 4.4.2?
>>>=20
>>> - Why is an URI given (only) in section 6.1.3?
>>> Also section 7.1.3 and 8.1.3.: http:\\www.iana.org\ ... <name> -> I
>>> think this should be: =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-
>>> 3A__www.iana.org_&d=3DDwIFaQ&c=3DLFYZ-
>>> o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3DOfsSu8kTIltVyD1oL72cBw&m=3DhwJZg-
>>> IdxQ9507aw2mjEKKOSWIEVnc8nwr7B_QiOyCU&s=3D9PuQd07oTFlEt8tWIDYz4c-
>>> qFUd4zpyT_7QeckyeAsc&e=3D<name>/
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Some more editorial comments/nits:
>>>=20
>>> - I find it actually unnecessary or rather confusing that most (not =
all)
>>> sections start with a sentence/paragraph explaining what the section =
is
>>> about (e.g. "Additional (Informational) details for this entry=E2=80=9D=
). I would
>>> think this is sufficiently explained in =
draft-ietf-ippm-metric-registry
>>> and does not need to be repeated here (in this already long =
document).
>>> Also note that section 8.6 inconsistently doesn=E2=80=99t have any =
content while
>>> 10.6. says =E2=80=9CNone.=E2=80=9D.
>>>=20
>>> - Also these comments in section 7 and 8 are probably supposed to be
>>> removed:
>>> " <insert name of the output type, raw or a selected summary =
statistic>=E2=80=9D
>>> =E2=80=A6?
>>>=20
>>> - I found this in section 10.2.2: "@@@@@ others??=E2=80=9D. I guess =
there is
>>> something missing? Also in this part, I don=E2=80=99t think SYN and =
FIN should be
>>> set at the same time, no? And rather than providing the Kind and =
Length of
>>> the TSopt, I would recommend to provide a pointer to the respective =
RFC.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> And finally one/two/three more general question(s) at the end, that =
I
>>> probably should also have asked already on my review for =
draft-ietf-ippm-
>>> metric-registry:
>>>=20
>>> Is it actually intended that basically all the text in this RFC gets
>>> copied into the registry? And what is expected to be on the URL page =
then?
>>> Wouldn=E2=80=99t it be necessary to also define a format for that =
page in order to
>>> be of any use?
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Mirja
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>=20


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From: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 15:05:33 -0700
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To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>
Cc: "vijayr@arista.com" <vijayr@arista.com>,  "draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>,  Hugh Holbrook <holbrook@arista.com>, "OU, Heidi" <heidi.ou@alibaba-inc.com>,  Surendra Anubolu <surendra.anubolu@broadcom.com>, "bew.stds@gmail.com" <bew.stds@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06
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Thanks Frank, this is helpful.  It appears the issue is still unresolved.

Anoop

On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 1:20 AM Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <
fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Anoop,
>
>
>
> WRT/ the use of GRE encap: There was an earlier discussion among authors
> and interested parties which I=E2=80=99m attaching here.
>
> This discussion is also captured in the open issue #128:
> https://github.com/inband-oam/ietf/issues/128
>
>
>
> Frank
>
>
>
> *From:* Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
> *Sent:* Samstag, 24. August 2019 00:02
> *To:* vijayr@arista.com
> *Cc:* Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com>;
> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>; Hugh
> Holbrook <holbrook@arista.com>; OU, Heidi <heidi.ou@alibaba-inc.com>;
> Surendra Anubolu <surendra.anubolu@broadcom.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06
>
>
>
> Hi Frank,
>
>
>
> As with Vijay, I am also interested in understanding the use of GRE for
> in-sequencing OAM.  Do we end up needing an Ethertype for TCP/UDP?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Anoop
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 10:06 AM Vijay Rangarajan <vijayr=3D
> 40arista.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Frank:
>
> Thanks, I knew I was missing something.
>
> So basically what you are saying is - let's say we have a UDP packet, we
> are just going to stick in the GRE header and IOAM Header and Metadata
> in-between the original IP and UDP headers?
>
>
>
> So, the next protocol in the IOAM Header should indicate the L4 protocol =
-
> i.e UDP/TCP?
>
> Looking at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-weis-ippm-ioam-eth/, it
> actually defines the "Next protocol" in the IOAM header to be an ethertyp=
e
> value?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Vijay
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 6:22 PM Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <
> fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Vijay,
>
>
>
> note that you don=E2=80=99t necessarily need to =E2=80=9Ctunnel=E2=80=9D =
=E2=80=93 you can just use the
> GRE header to sequence-in IOAM.
>
>
>
> Cheers, Frank
>
>
>
> *From:* Vijay Rangarajan <vijayr@arista.com>
> *Sent:* Donnerstag, 22. August 2019 05:31
> *To:* Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <cpignata@cisco.com
> <cpignata@cisco..com>>
> *Cc:* Jai Kumar <jai.kumar@broadcom.com>;
> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>; Frank
> Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com>; Hugh Holbrook <
> holbrook@arista.com>; Anoop Ghanwani <Anoop.Ghanwani@dell.com>; OU, Heidi
> <heidi.ou@alibaba-inc..com <heidi.ou@alibaba-inc.com>>; Surendra Anubolu =
<
> surendra.anubolu@broadcom.com>; John Lemon <john.lemon@broadcom.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06
>
>
>
> Thanks Carlos, for pointing me to the draft.
>
>
>
> Based on my understanding of the two drafts I have the following question=
s
> and concerns:
>
>    1. If I understand correctly, to deploy inband telemetry, we would
>    need to construct GRE tunnels coinciding with the IOAM domain?
>    2. GRE typically requires configuration to provision the tunnels.
>    Provisioning and managing these tunnels and keeping these updated as t=
he
>    network grows/shrinks could be a significant overhead.
>    3. In order to get the benefit of telemetry, we are imposing a change
>    in forwarding protocol/topology and configuration - which, I feel is n=
ot
>    desirable. For example, a customer might have basic L3 routing enabled=
 and
>    the expectation would be for inband telemetry to work seamlessly, with=
out
>    having to revamp the network with GRE tunnels and such. This could be =
a
>    significant barrier to deployment.
>    4. If sampling is used to select packets for performing IOAM encap, is
>    the expectation that only sampled IOAM packets go through GRE encap? O=
r all
>    data packets?
>    5. Due to network nodes inserting the IOAM data, the inner L3/L4
>    headers keep getting pushed deeper. I would imagine this gets challeng=
ing
>    for ASICs to access these fields for hashing/load balancing.
>    6. Assuming only a subset of packets in a flow are subject to IOAM
>    (based on sampling), how do we ensure these packets take the same netw=
ork
>    path as the rest of the packets in the flow?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Vijay
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 5:04 PM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) <
> cpignata@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Hello, Vijay,
>
>
>
> Please see https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-weis-ippm-ioam-eth/,
> and the document this replaces.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Thumb typed by Carlos Pignataro.
>
> Excuze typofraphicak errows
>
>
> 2019/08/21 6:35=E3=80=81Vijay Rangarajan <vijayr@arista.com>=E3=81=AE=E3=
=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB:
>
> Hello all:
>
> Apologise if this has been previously discussed.
>
> In reading "draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06", I don't see mention of GRE
> encap. The draft, in fact in Sec 3, says the following - "The in-situ OAM
> data field can be transported by a variety of transport protocols,
> including NSH, Segment Routing, Geneve, IPv6, or IPv4.  Specification
> details for these different transport protocols are outside the scope of
> this document."
>
>
>
> Is there another document, or a description somewhere, that talks about
> how IOAM is proposed to be carried in GRE? what would be the GRE payload,
> the GRE protocol type etc?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Vijay
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 7:52 AM Jai Kumar <jai.kumar@broadcom.com> wrote:
>
> Hello Frank,
>
>
>
> This is in context of our conversation at IETF105. My goal is to provide
> input and improve current IOAM data draft with the learnings we had with
> IFA deployment.
>
> This feedback is based on various customer interactions and concerns
> raised by them wrt IOAM. Each feedback is a longer topic and I am startin=
g
> this thread as a summary email. This is just highlighting the issues and
> not yet proposing any solution.
>
>
>
>
>
> Feedback 1:
>
> Section 4.2.1 Pre-allocated and Incremental Trace Options
>
> Pre-allocated and incremental trace option is 8Bytes long. This can be
> easily reduced to 4Bytes.
>
> There is a feedback that pre-allocated option is really not needed and
> either be removed or made optional.
>
> Given that deployments are sensitive to the IOAM overhead (specially in 5=
G
> deployments), it=E2=80=99s a 50% fixed overhead savings on a per packet b=
asis.
>
>
>
>
>
> Feedback 2:
> Section 4.1 IOAM Namespaces
>
> Namespaces should be treated as templates (similar to IPFIX template
> record formats). This is more flexible way of enumerating data. 64K
> namespace id is a very large namespace and can be reduced to 64 IANA
> specified name spaces. Separate private name space can be allowed instead
> of interleaving of opaque data in the IANA allocated name space as
> suggested in the current draft =E2=80=9Copaque state snapshot=E2=80=9D.
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7011#section-3.4
>
>
>
> Feedback 3:
>
> Section 4.2.1 Pre-allocated and Incremental Trace Options
>
> IOAM-Trace-Type:  A 24-bit identifier which specifies which data
>
>       types are used in this node data list.
>
> This is the most contentious of all. In the current proposal, as new data
> fields are added, there is a corresponding trace type bit need in the
> header. This essentially means that all possible data fields need to be
> enumerated. Given that we there are 64K names spaces allowed, I don=E2=80=
=99t see
> how we can fit all possible data fields in this 24bit vector. I know ther=
e
> was a suggestion of keeping last bit as an extension bit but it is still
> scalable and/or easy to implement in hardware. Besides this the data fiel=
ds
> are not annotated/encoded with the data type, something like in IPFIX
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7011#section-6.1
>
>
>
> Feedback 4:
>
> There is no version field in the data header and this will make
> interoperability challenging. Standard will evolve and headers bit
> definition and/or trace type will change and without version field HW wil=
l
> not be able to correctly handle the IOAM data headers.
>
>
>
> Feedback 5:
>
> Handling of TCP/UDP traffic using GRE encap is not acceptable. Here are
> some of the issues I can think of
>
>    - GRE encaped IOAM packets will traverse a different network path then
>    the original packet
>    - Not all packets can be GRE encaped to avoid the previous problem,
>    due to wastage of network bandwidth (typically sampled traffic is used=
 for
>    IOAM). What about native GRE traffic, will it get further encaped in
>    another GRE tunnel and so forth.
>    - IP header protocol will point to GRE IP proto and IOAM ethertype
>    (pending allocation by IEEE) need to be read from the GRE header to de=
tect
>    an IOAM packet. This means parsing performance penalty for all regular=
 GRE
>    (non IOAM) traffic.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Jai
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks Frank, this is helpful.=C2=A0 It appears the issue =
is still unresolved.<div><br></div><div>Anoop</div></div><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 1=
:20 AM Frank Brockners (fbrockne) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com"=
>fbrockne@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-1721900869961734655WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Anoop,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">WRT/ the use of GRE encap: There was an earlier disc=
ussion among authors and interested parties which I=E2=80=99m attaching her=
e.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This discussion is also captured in the open issue #=
128: <a href=3D"https://github.com/inband-oam/ietf/issues/128" target=3D"_b=
lank">
https://github.com/inband-oam/ietf/issues/128</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Frank<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-l=
eft:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:an=
oop@alumni.duke.edu" target=3D"_blank">anoop@alumni.duke.edu</a>&gt; <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Samstag, 24. August 2019 00:02<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:vijayr@arista.com" target=3D"_blank">vijayr@ar=
ista.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Frank Brockners (fbrockne) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fbrockne@cisco.=
com" target=3D"_blank">fbrockne@cisco.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-=
ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@i=
etf.org</a>; IETF IPPM WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">ippm@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Hugh Holbrook &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:holbrook@a=
rista.com" target=3D"_blank">holbrook@arista.com</a>&gt;; OU, Heidi &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:heidi.ou@alibaba-inc.com" target=3D"_blank">heidi.ou@alibaba=
-inc.com</a>&gt;; Surendra Anubolu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:surendra.anubolu@b=
roadcom.com" target=3D"_blank">surendra.anubolu@broadcom.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Frank,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As with Vijay, I am also interested in understanding=
 the use of GRE for in-sequencing OAM.=C2=A0 Do we end up needing an Ethert=
ype for TCP/UDP?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Anoop<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 10:06 AM Vijay Rangarajan &l=
t;vijayr=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40arista.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>40arista.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Frank:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks, I knew I was missing something.<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So basically what you are saying is - let&#39;s say =
we have a UDP packet, we are just going to stick in the GRE header and IOAM=
 Header and Metadata in-between the original IP and UDP headers?<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So, the next protocol in the IOAM Header should indi=
cate the L4 protocol - i.e UDP/TCP?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Looking at=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.=
org/doc/draft-weis-ippm-ioam-eth/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/doc/draft-weis-ippm-ioam-eth/</a>, it actually defines the &quot;Nex=
t protocol&quot; in the IOAM header to be an ethertype
 value?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Vijay<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 6:22 PM Frank Brockners (fbr=
ockne) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">fbrockne=
@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Vijay,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">note that you don=E2=80=99t necessarily need to =E2=
=80=9Ctunnel=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 you can just use the GRE header to sequence=
-in IOAM.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cheers, Frank<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-l=
eft:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Vijay Rangarajan &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
vijayr@arista.com" target=3D"_blank">vijayr@arista.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Donnerstag, 22. August 2019 05:31<br>
<b>To:</b> Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco=
..com" target=3D"_blank">cpignata@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Jai Kumar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jai.kumar@broadcom.com" target=
=3D"_blank">jai.kumar@broadcom.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dra=
ft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org</a>; IETF IPPM WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ipp=
m@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ippm@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Frank Brockners (fbroc=
kne) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">fbrockne@c=
isco.com</a>&gt;;
 Hugh Holbrook &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:holbrook@arista.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>holbrook@arista.com</a>&gt;; Anoop Ghanwani &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Anoop.Gh=
anwani@dell.com" target=3D"_blank">Anoop.Ghanwani@dell.com</a>&gt;; OU, Hei=
di &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:heidi.ou@alibaba-inc.com" target=3D"_blank">heidi.=
ou@alibaba-inc..com</a>&gt;;
 Surendra Anubolu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:surendra.anubolu@broadcom.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">surendra.anubolu@broadcom.com</a>&gt;; John Lemon &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:john.lemon@broadcom.com" target=3D"_blank">john.lemon@broadcom.c=
om</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks Carlos, for pointing me to the draft.<u></u><=
u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Based on my understanding of the two drafts I have t=
he following questions and concerns:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
If I understand correctly, to deploy inband telemetry, we would need to con=
struct GRE tunnels coinciding with the IOAM domain?<u></u><u></u></li><li c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal">
GRE typically requires configuration to provision the tunnels. Provisioning=
 and managing these tunnels and keeping these updated as the network grows/=
shrinks could be a significant overhead.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"Mso=
Normal">
In order to get the benefit of telemetry, we are imposing a change in forwa=
rding protocol/topology and configuration - which, I feel is not desirable.=
 For=C2=A0example, a customer might have basic L3 routing enabled and the e=
xpectation would be for inband telemetry
 to work seamlessly, without having to revamp the network with GRE tunnels =
and such. This could be a significant barrier to deployment.<u></u><u></u><=
/li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
If sampling is used to select packets for performing IOAM encap, is the exp=
ectation that only sampled IOAM packets go through GRE encap? Or all data p=
ackets?<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Due to network nodes inserting the IOAM data, the inner L3/L4 headers keep =
getting pushed deeper. I would imagine this gets challenging for ASICs to a=
ccess these fields for hashing/load balancing.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=
=3D"MsoNormal">
Assuming only a subset of packets in a flow are subject to IOAM (based on s=
ampling), how do we ensure these packets take the same network path as the =
rest of the packets in the flow?<u></u><u></u></li></ol>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Vijay<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 5:04 PM Carlos Pignataro (cp=
ignata) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpignata@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">cpignat=
a@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hello, Vijay,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Please see=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.=
org/doc/draft-weis-ippm-ioam-eth/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/doc/draft-weis-ippm-ioam-eth/</a>, and the document
 this replaces.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">Thanks!<u></u><u></u></=
p>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-1721900869961734655gmail-m_-7234846232105987605gmail-m_=
-5719251083479392653gmail-m_-2576896364007892994gmail-m_1780030001074529731=
AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span class=3D"gmail-m_-1721900869961734655gmail-m-7=
234846232105987605gmail-m-5719251083479392653gmail-m-2576896364007892994gma=
il-m1780030001074529731apple-style-span">Thumb typed by Carlos Pignataro.</=
span>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span class=3D"gmail-m_-1721900869961734655gmail-m-7=
234846232105987605gmail-m-5719251083479392653gmail-m-2576896364007892994gma=
il-m1780030001074529731apple-style-span">Excuze typofraphicak errows</span>=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
2019/08/21 6:35<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&quot;">=E3=80=81<=
/span>Vijay Rangarajan &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vijayr@arista.com" target=3D"_=
blank">vijayr@arista.com</a>&gt;<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;MS Gothic&=
quot;">=E3=81=AE=E3=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB</span>:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hello all:
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Apologise if this has been previously discussed.<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In reading &quot;draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06&quot;,=
 I don&#39;t see mention of GRE encap. The draft, in fact in Sec 3, says th=
e following - &quot;The in-situ OAM data field can be transported by
 a variety of transport protocols, including NSH, Segment Routing, Geneve, =
IPv6, or IPv4.=C2=A0 Specification details for these different transport pr=
otocols are outside the scope of this document.&quot;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Is there another document, or a description somewher=
e, that talks about how IOAM is proposed to be carried in GRE? what would b=
e the GRE payload, the GRE protocol type etc?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Vijay<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 7:52 AM Jai Kumar &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:jai.kumar@broadcom.com" target=3D"_blank">jai.kumar@broadcom.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hello Frank,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This is in context of our conversation at IETF105. M=
y goal is to provide input and improve current IOAM data draft with the lea=
rnings we had with IFA deployment.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This feedback is based on various customer interacti=
ons and concerns raised by them wrt IOAM. Each feedback is a longer topic a=
nd I am starting this thread as a summary email. This
 is just highlighting the issues and not yet proposing any solution. <u></u=
><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Feedback 1:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 4.2.1
<span style=3D"color:black">Pre-allocated and Incremental Trace Options</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Pre-allocated and incremental trace option is 8Bytes=
 long. This can be easily reduced to 4Bytes.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There is a feedback that pre-allocated option is rea=
lly not needed and either be removed or made optional.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Given that deployments are sensitive to the IOAM ove=
rhead (specially in 5G deployments), it=E2=80=99s a 50% fixed overhead savi=
ngs on a per packet basis.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Feedback 2:<u></u><u></u></p>
<h3><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">Section 4.1 <span style=3D"color:black">=
IOAM Namespaces</span></span><u></u><u></u></h3>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Namespaces should be treated as templates (similar t=
o IPFIX template record formats). This is more flexible way of enumerating =
data. 64K namespace id is a very large namespace and
 can be reduced to 64 IANA specified name spaces. Separate private name spa=
ce can be allowed instead of interleaving of opaque data in the IANA alloca=
ted name space as suggested in the current draft =E2=80=9Copaque state snap=
shot=E2=80=9D.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7011#secti=
on-3.4" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7011#section-3.4</=
a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Feedback 3:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 4.2.1
<span style=3D"color:black">Pre-allocated and Incremental Trace Options</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">IOAM-Trace-Type:=C2=A0 A=
 24-bit identifier which specifies which data</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 types are used in this node data list.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This is the most contentious of all. In the current =
proposal, as new data fields are added, there is a corresponding trace type=
 bit need in the header. This essentially means that
 all possible data fields need to be enumerated. Given that we there are 64=
K names spaces allowed, I don=E2=80=99t see how we can fit all possible dat=
a fields in this 24bit vector. I know there was a suggestion of keeping las=
t bit as an extension bit but it is still
 scalable and/or easy to implement in hardware. Besides this the data field=
s are not annotated/encoded with the data type, something like in IPFIX
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7011#section-6.1" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7011#section-6.1</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Feedback 4:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There is no version field in the data header and thi=
s will make interoperability challenging. Standard will evolve and headers =
bit definition and/or trace type will change and without
 version field HW will not be able to correctly handle the IOAM data header=
s.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Feedback 5:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Handling of TCP/UDP traffic using GRE encap is not a=
cceptable. Here are some of the issues I can think of<u></u><u></u></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"gmail-m_-1721900869961734655gmail-m-7234846232105987605gmail-m=
-5719251083479392653gmail-m-2576896364007892994gmail-m1780030001074529731gm=
ail-m-6252660126680476717msolistparagraph">
GRE encaped IOAM packets will traverse a different network path then the or=
iginal packet<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"gmail-m_-1721900869961734655gm=
ail-m-7234846232105987605gmail-m-5719251083479392653gmail-m-257689636400789=
2994gmail-m1780030001074529731gmail-m-6252660126680476717msolistparagraph">
Not all packets can be GRE encaped to avoid the previous problem, due to wa=
stage of network bandwidth (typically sampled traffic is used for IOAM). Wh=
at about native GRE traffic, will it get further encaped in another GRE tun=
nel and so forth.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"gmail-m_-17219008699617346=
55gmail-m-7234846232105987605gmail-m-5719251083479392653gmail-m-25768963640=
07892994gmail-m1780030001074529731gmail-m-6252660126680476717msolistparagra=
ph">
IP header protocol will point to GRE IP proto and IOAM ethertype (pending a=
llocation by IEEE) need to be read from the GRE header to detect an IOAM pa=
cket. This means parsing performance penalty for all regular GRE (non IOAM)=
 traffic.<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Jai<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
ippm mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ippm@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

--000000000000a480660591ad4a7b--


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Reviewer: Dale Worley
Review result: Ready with Issues





Network Working Group                                          G. Mirsky
Internet-Draft                                                 ZTE Corp.
Intended status: Standards Track                                  G. Jun
Expires: February 13, 2020                               ZTE Corporation
                                                               H. Nydell
                                                       Accedian Networks
                                                                R. Foote
                                                                   Nokia
                                                         August 12, 2019


               Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol
                        draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07

Abstract

   This document describes a Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol
   which enables the measurement of both one-way and round-trip
   performance metrics like delay, delay variation, and packet loss.

Status of This Memo

   This Internet-Draft is submitted in full conformance with the
   provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79.

   Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering
   Task Force (IETF).  Note that other groups may also distribute
   working documents as Internet-Drafts.  The list of current Internet-
   Drafts is at https://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/current/.

   Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months
   and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
   time.  It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference
   material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."

   This Internet-Draft will expire on February 13, 2020.

Copyright Notice

   Copyright (c) 2019 IETF Trust and the persons identified as the
   document authors.  All rights reserved.

   This document is subject to BCP 78 and the IETF Trust's Legal
   Provisions Relating to IETF Documents
   (https://trustee.ietf.org/license-info) in effect on the date of
   publication of this document.  Please review these documents
   carefully, as they describe your rights and restrictions with respect
   to this document.  Code Components extracted from this document must



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   include Simplified BSD License text as described in Section 4.e of
   the Trust Legal Provisions and are provided without warranty as
   described in the Simplified BSD License.

Table of Contents

   1.  Introduction  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   2
   2.  Conventions used in this document . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3
     2.1.  Terminology . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3
     2.2.  Requirements Language . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3
   3.  Softwarization of Performance Measurement . . . . . . . . . .   3
   4.  Theory of Operation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4
     4.1.  Session-Sender Behavior and Packet Format . . . . . . . .   5
       4.1.1.  Session-Sender Packet Format in Unauthenticated Mode    5
       4.1.2.  Session-Sender Packet Format in Authenticated Mode  .   6
     4.2.  Session-Reflector Behavior and Packet Format  . . . . . .   7
       4.2.1.  Session-Reflector Packet Format in Unauthenticated
               Mode  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   8
       4.2.2.  Session-Reflector Packet Format in Authenticated Mode   9
     4.3.  Integrity and Confidentiality Protection in STAMP . . . .  10
     4.4.  Interoperability with TWAMP Light . . . . . . . . . . . .  11
   5.  IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  11
   6.  Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  12
   7.  Acknowledgments . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  12
   8.  References  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  12
     8.1.  Normative References  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  12
     8.2.  Informative References  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  14
   Authors' Addresses  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  14

1.  Introduction

   Development and deployment of Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol
   (TWAMP) [RFC5357] and its extensions, e.g., [RFC6038] that defined
   features such as Reflect Octets and Symmetrical Size for TWAMP
   provided invaluable experience.  Several independent implementations
   exist, have been deployed and provide important operational
   performance measurements.  At the same time, there has been
   noticeable interest in using a more straightforward mechanism for
   active performance monitoring that can provide deterministic behavior
   and inherit separation of control (vendor-specific configuration or
   orchestration) and test functions.  One of such is Performance
   Measurement from IP Edge to Customer Equipment using TWAMP Light from
   Broadband Forum [BBF.TR-390] used as the reference TWAMP Light that,
   according to [RFC8545], includes sub-set of TWAMP-Test functions in
   combination with other applications that provide, for example,
   control and security.  This document defines an active performance
   measurement test protocol, Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol
   (STAMP), that enables measurement of both one-way and round-trip



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   performance metrics like delay, delay variation, and packet loss.
   Some TWAMP extensions, e.g., [RFC7750] are supported by the
   extensions to STAMP base specification in
   [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv].

2.  Conventions used in this document

2.1.  Terminology

   AES Advanced Encryption Standard

   CBC Cipher Block Chaining

   ECB Electronic Cookbook

   KEK Key-encryption Key

   STAMP - Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol

   NTP - Network Time Protocol

   PTP - Precision Time Protocol

   HMAC Hashed Message Authentication Code

   OWAMP One-Way Active Measurement Protocol

   TWAMP Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol

   MBZ May be Zero

2.2.  Requirements Language

   The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT",
   "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "NOT RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and
   "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in BCP
   14 [RFC2119] [RFC8174] when, and only when, they appear in all
   capitals, as shown here.

3.  Softwarization of Performance Measurement

   Figure 1 presents the Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol
   (STAMP) Session-Sender, and Session-Reflector with a measurement
   session.  The configuration and management of the STAMP Session-
   Sender, Session-Reflector, and management of the STAMP sessions can
   be achieved through various means.  Command Line Interface, OSS/BSS
   (operations support system/business support system as a combination
   of two systems used to support a range of telecommunication services)



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   using SNMP or controllers in Software-Defined Networking using
   Netconf/YANG are but a few examples.


         o----------------------------------------------------------o
         |                      Configuration and                   |
         |                         Management                       |
         o----------------------------------------------------------o
                ||                                          ||
                ||                                          ||
                ||                                          ||
     +----------------------+                +-------------------------+
     | STAMP Session-Sender | <--- STAMP---> | STAMP Session-Reflector |
     +----------------------+                +-------------------------+


                      Figure 1: STAMP Reference Model

4.  Theory of Operation

   STAMP Session-Sender transmits test packets over UDP transport toward
   STAMP Session-Reflector.  A STAMP Session-Sender MUST use UDP port
   862 (TWAMP-Test Receiver Port) as the default destination UDP port
   number.  A STAMP implementation of Session-Sender MUST be able to use
   UDP port numbers from User, a.k.a.  Registered, Ports and Dynamic,
   a.k.a.  Private or Ephemeral, Ports ranges defined in [RFC6335].
   Before using numbers from the User Ports range, the possible impact
   on the network MUST be carefully studied and agreed by all users of
   the network.

   STAMP Session-Reflector receives Session-Sender's packet and acts
   according to the configuration and optional control information
   communicated in the Session-Sender's test packet.  An implementation
   of STAMP Session-Reflector by default MUST use receive STAMP test
   packets on UDP port 862.  An implementation of Session-Reflector that
   supports this specification MUST be able to define the port number to
   receive STAMP test packets from User Ports and Dynamic Ports ranges
   that are defined in [RFC6335].  STAMP defines two different test
   packet formats, one for packets transmitted by the STAMP-Session-
   Sender and one for packets transmitted by the STAMP-Session-
   Reflector.

   STAMP supports two modes: unauthenticated and authenticated.
   Unauthenticated STAMP test packets, defined in Section 4.1.1 and
   Section 4.2.1, ensure interworking between STAMP and TWAMP Light as
   described in Section 4.4 packet formats.





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   By default, STAMP uses symmetrical packets, i.e., size of the packet
   transmitted by Session-Reflector equals the size of the packet
   received by the Session-Reflector.

4.1.  Session-Sender Behavior and Packet Format

   Because STAMP supports symmetrical test packets, STAMP Session-Sender
   packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated mode, see
   Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see Figure 4.

4.1.1.  Session-Sender Packet Format in Unauthenticated Mode

   STAMP Session-Sender packet format in unauthenticated mode:

       0                   1                   2                   3
       0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
      |                        Sequence Number                        |
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
      |                          Timestamp                            |
      |                                                               |
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
      |         Error Estimate        |                               |
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+                               +
      |                                                               |
      |                                                               |
      |                         MBZ (30 octets)                       |
      |                                                               |
      |                                                               |
      |                                                               |
      |                                                               |
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

   Figure 2: STAMP Session-Sender test packet format in unauthenticated
                                   mode

   where fields are defined as the following:

   o  Sequence Number is four octets long field.  For each new session
      its value starts at zero and is incremented with each transmitted
      packet.

   o  Timestamp is eight octets long field.  STAMP node MUST support
      Network Time Protocol (NTP) version 4 64-bit timestamp format
      [RFC5905], the format used in [RFC5357].  STAMP node MAY support
      IEEE 1588v2 Precision Time Protocol truncated 64-bit timestamp
      format [IEEE.1588.2008], the format used in [RFC8186].




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   o  Error Estimate is two octets long field with format displayed in
      Figure 3

            0                   1
            0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5
           +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
           |S|Z|   Scale   |   Multiplier  |
           +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

                      Figure 3: Error Estimate Format

      where S, Scale, and Multiplier fields are interpreted as they have
      been defined in section 4.1.2 [RFC4656]; and Z field - as has been
      defined in section 2.3 [RFC8186]:

      *  0 - NTP 64 bit format of a timestamp;

      *  1 - PTPv2 truncated format of a timestamp.

      The STAMP Session-Sender and Session-Reflector MAY use, not use,
      or set value of the Z field in accordance with the timestamp
      format in use.  This optional field is to enhance operations, but
      local configuration or defaults could be used in its place.

   o  May-be-Zero (MBZ) field in the session-sender unauthenticated
      packet is 30 octets long.  It MAY be all zeroed on the
      transmission and MUST be ignored on receipt.

4.1.2.  Session-Sender Packet Format in Authenticated Mode

   STAMP Session-Sender packet format in authenticated mode:




















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     0                   1                   2                   3
     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |                      Sequence Number                          |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |                                                               |
    |                      MBZ (12 octets)                          |
    |                                                               |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |                        Timestamp                              |
    |                                                               |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |        Error Estimate         |                               |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+                               +
    ~                                                               ~
    |                         MBZ (70 octets)                       |
    ~                                                               ~
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |                                                               |
    |                       HMAC (16 octets)                        |
    |                                                               |
    |                                                               |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

    Figure 4: STAMP Session-Sender test packet format in authenticated
                                   mode

   The field definitions are the same as the unauthenticated mode,
   listed in Section 4.1.1.  Also, MBZ fields are used to align the
   packet on 16 octets boundary.  The value of the field MAY be zeroed
   on transmission and MUST be ignored on receipt.  Also, the packet
   includes a key-hashed message authentication code (HMAC) ([RFC2104])
   hash at the end of the PDU.  The detailed use of the HMAC field is
   described in Section 4.3.

4.2.  Session-Reflector Behavior and Packet Format

   The Session-Reflector receives the STAMP test packet, verifies it,
   prepares and transmits the reflected test packet.

   Two modes of STAMP Session-Reflector characterize the expected
   behavior and, consequently, performance metrics that can be measured:

   o  Stateless - STAMP Session-Reflector does not maintain test state
      and will reflect the received sequence number without
      modification.  As a result, only round-trip packet loss can be
      calculated while the reflector is operating in stateless mode.




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   o  Stateful - STAMP Session-Reflector maintains test state thus
      enabling the ability to determine forward loss, gaps recognized in
      the received sequence number.  As a result, both near-end
      (forward) and far-end (backward) packet loss can be computed.
      That implies that the STAMP Session-Reflector MUST keep a state
      for each accepted STAMP-test session, uniquely identifying STAMP-
      test packets to one such session instance, and enabling adding a
      sequence number in the test reply that is individually incremented
      on a per-session basis.

4.2.1.  Session-Reflector Packet Format in Unauthenticated Mode

   For unauthenticated mode:

     0                   1                   2                   3
     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |                        Sequence Number                        |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |                          Timestamp                            |
    |                                                               |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |         Error Estimate        |           MBZ                 |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |                          Receive Timestamp                    |
    |                                                               |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |                 Session-Sender Sequence Number                |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |                  Session-Sender Timestamp                     |
    |                                                               |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    | Session-Sender Error Estimate |           MBZ                 |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |Ses-Sender TTL |                    MBZ                        |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

          Figure 5: STAMP Session-Reflector test packet format in
                           unauthenticated mode

   where fields are defined as the following:

   o  Sequence Number is four octets long field.  The value of the
      Sequence Number field is set according to the mode of the STAMP
      Session-Reflector:

      *  in the stateless mode the Session-Reflector copies the value
         from the received STAMP test packet's Sequence Number field;



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      *  in the stateful mode the Session-Reflector counts the received
         STAMP test packets in each test session and uses that counter
         to set the value of the Sequence Number field.

   o  Timestamp and Receiver Timestamp fields are each eight octets
      long.  The format of these fields, NTP or PTPv2, indicated by the
      Z flag of the Error Estimate field as described in Section 4.1.

   o  Error Estimate has the same size and interpretation as described
      in Section 4.1.

   o  Session-Sender Sequence Number, Session-Sender Timestamp, and
      Session-Sender Error Estimate are copies of the corresponding
      fields in the STAMP test packet sent by the Session-Sender.

   o  Session-Sender TTL is one octet long field, and its value is the
      copy of the TTL field in IPv4 (or Hop Limit in IPv6) from the
      received STAMP test packet.

   o  MBZ is used to achieve alignment on a four octets boundary.  The
      value of the field MAY be zeroed on transmission and MUST be
      ignored on receipt.

4.2.2.  Session-Reflector Packet Format in Authenticated Mode

   For the authenticated mode:

      0                   1                   2                   3
      0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
      |                        Sequence Number                        |
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
      |                        MBZ (12 octets)                        |
      |                                                               |
      |                                                               |
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
      |                          Timestamp                            |
      |                                                               |
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
      |         Error Estimate        |                               |
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+                               +
      |                        MBZ (6 octets)                         |
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
      |                        Receive Timestamp                      |
      |                                                               |
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
      |                        MBZ (8 octets)                         |
      |                                                               |



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      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
      |                 Session-Sender Sequence Number                |
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
      |                        MBZ (12 octets)                        |
      |                                                               |
      |                                                               |
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
      |                 Session-Sender Timestamp                      |
      |                                                               |
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
      | Session-Sender Error Estimate |                               |
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+                               +
      |                        MBZ (6 octets)                         |
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
      |Ses-Sender TTL |                                               |
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+                                               +
      |                                                               |
      |                        MBZ (15 octets)                        |
      |                                                               |
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
      |                        HMAC (16 octets)                       |
      |                                                               |
      |                                                               |
      |                                                               |
      +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+


   Figure 6: STAMP Session-Reflector test packet format in authenticated
                                   mode

   The field definitions are the same as the unauthenticated mode,
   listed in Section 4.2.1.  Additionally, the MBZ field is used to
   align the packet on 16 octets boundary.  The value of the field MAY
   be zeroed on transmission and MUST be ignored on receipt.  Also,
   STAMP Session-Reflector test packet format in authenticated mode
   includes a key (HMAC) ([RFC2104]) hash at the end of the PDU.  The
   detailed use of the HMAC field is in Section 4.3.

4.3.  Integrity and Confidentiality Protection in STAMP

   To provide integrity protection, each STAMP message is being
   authenticated by adding Hashed Message Authentication Code (HMAC).
   STAMP uses HMAC-SHA-256 truncated to 128 bits (similarly to the use
   of it in IPSec defined in [RFC4868]); hence the length of the HMAC
   field is 16 octets.  HMAC uses its own key, and the definition of the
   mechanism to distribute the HMAC key is outside the scope of this
   specification.  One example is to use an orchestrator to configure
   HMAC key based on STAMP YANG data model [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-yang].



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   HMAC MUST be verified as early as possible to avoid using or
   propagating corrupted data.

   If confidentiality protection for STAMP is required, encryption at
   the higher level MUST be used.  For example, STAMP packets could be
   transmitted in the dedicated IPsec tunnel or share the IPsec tunnel
   with the monitored flow.

4.4.  Interoperability with TWAMP Light

   One of the essential requirements to STAMP is the ability to
   interwork with a TWAMP Light device.  There are two possible
   combinations for such use case:

   o  STAMP Session-Sender with TWAMP Light Session-Reflector;

   o  TWAMP Light Session-Sender with STAMP Session-Reflector.

   In the former case, the Session-Sender MAY not be aware that its
   Session-Reflector does not support STAMP.  For example, a TWAMP Light
   Session-Reflector may not support the use of UDP port 862 as defined
   in [RFC8545].  Thus STAMP Session-Sender MAY use port numbers as
   defined in Section 4.  If any of STAMP extensions are used, the TWAMP
   Light Session-Reflector will view them as Packet Padding field.  The
   Session-Sender SHOULD use the default format for its timestamps -
   NTP.  And it MAY use PTPv2 timestamp format.

   In the latter scenario, if a TWAMP Light Session-Sender does not
   support the use of UDP port 862, the test management system MUST set
   STAMP Session-Reflector to use UDP port number as defined in
   Section 4.  If the TWAMP Light Session-Sender includes Packet Padding
   field in its transmitted packet, the STAMP Session-Reflector will
   return the reflected packet of the symmetrical size if the size of
   the received test packet is larger than the size of the STAMP base
   packet.  The Session-Reflector MUST be set to use the default format
   for its timestamps, NTP.

   STAMP does not support the Reflect Octets capability defined in
   [RFC6038].  If the Server Octets field is present in the TWAMP
   Session-Sender packet, STAMP Session-Reflector will not copy the
   content starting from the Server Octets field but will transmit the
   reflected packet of equal size.

5.  IANA Considerations

   This document doesn't have any IANA action.  This section may be
   removed before the publication.




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6.  Security Considerations

   In general, all the security considerations related to TWAMP-Test,
   discussed in [RFC5357] apply to STAMP.  Since STAMP uses the well-
   known UDP port number allocated for the OWAMP-Test/TWAMP-Test
   Receiver port, the security considerations and measures to mitigate
   the risk of the attack using the registered port number documented in
   Section 6 [RFC8545] equally apply to STAMP.  Because of the control
   and management of a STAMP test being outside the scope of this
   specification only the more general requirement is set:

      To mitigate the possible attack vector, the control, and
      management of a STAMP test session MUST use the secured transport.

      Load of STAMP test packets offered to a network MUST be carefully
      estimated, and the possible impact on the existing services MUST
      be thoroughly analyzed before launching the test session.
      [RFC8085] section 3.1.5 provides guidance on handling network load
      for UDP-based protocol.  While the characteristic of test traffic
      depends on the test objective, it is highly recommended to stay in
      the limits as provided in [RFC8085].

   STAMP test packets can be transmitted with the destination UDP port
   number from the User Ports range, as defined in Section 4, that is
   already or will be assigned by IANA.  The possible impact of the
   STAMP test packets on the network MUST be thoroughly analyzed, and
   the use of STAMP for each case MUST be agreed by all users on the
   network before starting the STAMP test session.

   Use of HMAC-SHA-256 in the authenticated mode protects the data
   integrity of the STAMP test packets.

7.  Acknowledgments

   Authors express their appreciation to Jose Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin
   and Brian Weis for their great insights into the security and
   identity protection, and the most helpful and practical suggestions.
   Also, our sincere thanks to David Ball and Rakesh Gandhi or their
   thorough reviews and helpful comments.

8.  References

8.1.  Normative References

   [IEEE.1588.2008]
              "Standard for a Precision Clock Synchronization Protocol
              for Networked Measurement and Control Systems",
              IEEE Standard 1588, March 2008.



Mirsky, et al.          Expires February 13, 2020              [Page 12]

Internet-Draft                    STAMP                      August 2019


   [RFC2119]  Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate
              Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119,
              DOI 10.17487/RFC2119, March 1997,
              <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc2119>.

   [RFC4656]  Shalunov, S., Teitelbaum, B., Karp, A., Boote, J., and M.
              Zekauskas, "A One-way Active Measurement Protocol
              (OWAMP)", RFC 4656, DOI 10.17487/RFC4656, September 2006,
              <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc4656>.

   [RFC5357]  Hedayat, K., Krzanowski, R., Morton, A., Yum, K., and J.
              Babiarz, "A Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP)",
              RFC 5357, DOI 10.17487/RFC5357, October 2008,
              <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5357>.

   [RFC5905]  Mills, D., Martin, J., Ed., Burbank, J., and W. Kasch,
              "Network Time Protocol Version 4: Protocol and Algorithms
              Specification", RFC 5905, DOI 10.17487/RFC5905, June 2010,
              <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5905>.

   [RFC6038]  Morton, A. and L. Ciavattone, "Two-Way Active Measurement
              Protocol (TWAMP) Reflect Octets and Symmetrical Size
              Features", RFC 6038, DOI 10.17487/RFC6038, October 2010,
              <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6038>.

   [RFC6335]  Cotton, M., Eggert, L., Touch, J., Westerlund, M., and S.
              Cheshire, "Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA)
              Procedures for the Management of the Service Name and
              Transport Protocol Port Number Registry", BCP 165,
              RFC 6335, DOI 10.17487/RFC6335, August 2011,
              <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6335>.

   [RFC8174]  Leiba, B., "Ambiguity of Uppercase vs Lowercase in RFC
              2119 Key Words", BCP 14, RFC 8174, DOI 10.17487/RFC8174,
              May 2017, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8174>.

   [RFC8186]  Mirsky, G. and I. Meilik, "Support of the IEEE 1588
              Timestamp Format in a Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol
              (TWAMP)", RFC 8186, DOI 10.17487/RFC8186, June 2017,
              <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8186>.

   [RFC8545]  Morton, A., Ed. and G. Mirsky, Ed., "Well-Known Port
              Assignments for the One-Way Active Measurement Protocol
              (OWAMP) and the Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol
              (TWAMP)", RFC 8545, DOI 10.17487/RFC8545, March 2019,
              <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8545>.





Mirsky, et al.          Expires February 13, 2020              [Page 13]

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8.2.  Informative References

   [BBF.TR-390]
              "Performance Measurement from IP Edge to Customer
              Equipment using TWAMP Light", BBF TR-390, May 2017.

   [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv]
              Mirsky, G., Xiao, M., Jun, G., Nydell, H., and R. Foote,
              "Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol Optional
              Extensions", draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-00 (work in
              progress), July 2019.

   [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-yang]
              Mirsky, G., Xiao, M., and W. Luo, "Simple Two-way Active
              Measurement Protocol (STAMP) Data Model", draft-ietf-ippm-
              stamp-yang-03 (work in progress), March 2019.

   [RFC2104]  Krawczyk, H., Bellare, M., and R. Canetti, "HMAC: Keyed-
              Hashing for Message Authentication", RFC 2104,
              DOI 10.17487/RFC2104, February 1997,
              <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc2104>.

   [RFC4868]  Kelly, S. and S. Frankel, "Using HMAC-SHA-256, HMAC-SHA-
              384, and HMAC-SHA-512 with IPsec", RFC 4868,
              DOI 10.17487/RFC4868, May 2007,
              <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc4868>.

   [RFC7750]  Hedin, J., Mirsky, G., and S. Baillargeon, "Differentiated
              Service Code Point and Explicit Congestion Notification
              Monitoring in the Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol
              (TWAMP)", RFC 7750, DOI 10.17487/RFC7750, February 2016,
              <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc7750>.

   [RFC8085]  Eggert, L., Fairhurst, G., and G. Shepherd, "UDP Usage
              Guidelines", BCP 145, RFC 8085, DOI 10.17487/RFC8085,
              March 2017, <https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8085>.

Authors' Addresses

   Greg Mirsky
   ZTE Corp.

   Email: gregimirsky@gmail.com








Mirsky, et al.          Expires February 13, 2020              [Page 14]

Internet-Draft                    STAMP                      August 2019


   Guo Jun
   ZTE Corporation
   68# Zijinghua Road
   Nanjing, Jiangsu  210012
   P.R.China

   Phone: +86 18105183663
   Email: guo.jun2@zte.com.cn


   Henrik Nydell
   Accedian Networks

   Email: hnydell@accedian.com


   Richard Foote
   Nokia

   Email: footer.foote@nokia.com































Mirsky, et al.          Expires February 13, 2020              [Page 15]



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From: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>
To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>, "draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>, Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06
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Thanks again detailed comments (special thanks to Tom and Haoyu).
There is a new pull request available which reflect these comments:
https://github.com/inband-oam/ietf/pull/133. Please review.=20
I'm hoping to get it merged by the end of this week.

Thanks, Frank

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Brockners (fbrockne)
> Sent: Dienstag, 13. August 2019 09:08
> To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>; draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-
> data@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06
>=20
> Hi Haoyu,
>=20
> Thanks for your comments. They key point you raise is consistent nomencla=
ture
> - which we definitively need to address in the next revision. Not uncommo=
n for a
> document with many different authors - but now is indeed the time to tidy=
 things
> up and get the house in order.
>=20
> Thanks again, Frank
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>
> > Sent: Dienstag, 13. August 2019 02:00
> > To: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
> > Subject: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06
> >
> > Dear IOAM data authors and IPPM WG,
> >
> > To sync up with the latest, I reread the draft and gave it a full revie=
w.
> > Some questions, comments, and suggestions are marked in the document.
> > Hopefully this can help to tighten the draft.
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Haoyu
> >


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----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Two very much discussing discusses. However, I would really like to hear the
answer to these concerns before clearing.

1. Section 4.3: Is the HMAC field size of 16 bytes hard coded? If there ever
would exist a need to deploy another integrity solution, even if the actual
algorithm used to construct the tag can be agreed by the management, there
appear to exist a hard look in to use 16-byte tags. Have this issue been
considered?

        2. Section 6:
        The possible impact of the
   STAMP test packets on the network MUST be thoroughly analyzed, and
   the use of STAMP for each case MUST be agreed by all users on the
   network before starting the STAMP test session.

        I assume some potential issues are know, shouldn't they really be
        listed here in the security consideration to further motivate why the
        analysis needs to happen.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

        1. Section 4:
        Before using numbers from the User Ports range, the possible impact
   on the network MUST be carefully studied and agreed by all users of
   the network.

        Is the above sentence missing to list an important assumption? Is the
        assumption that by using the registred destination port an operator
        that sees to much STAMP traffic can simply filter it out and that way
        deal with the traffic, something which is not possible when using an
        locally decided port? If that is the case, this assumption should
        probably be noted.

        2. Section 3 and 4, and 4.1.1: What is a STAMP Session? Is that a
        measurment session between one specific and sender and a specific
        reflector for a time duration?  The defenition of the session do matter
        if one intended to enable a single sender to use multiple reflectors,
        and if that can be a single session or always multiple indepdendent
        ones. Would appreciate a definition what a session is. If it is
        possible to send STAMP traffic using a multicast or broadcast address
        should be made explicit.

        3.  Section 4.1.1.:
        Timestamp is eight octets long field.  STAMP node MUST support
      Network Time Protocol (NTP) version 4 64-bit timestamp format
      [RFC5905], the format used in [RFC5357].  STAMP node MAY support
      IEEE 1588v2 Precision Time Protocol truncated 64-bit timestamp
      format [IEEE.1588.2008], the format used in [RFC8186].

        Is the clock source here something that may be relevant or simply
        information the management functions should capture. I think there is a
        similar issue to that of RTP faced when it comes to understand what the
        timestamp actually represent and thus be used correctly. RTP clock
        source specification is RFC 7273
        (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7273/)

        4. Section 4.1:
           Because STAMP supports symmetrical test packets, STAMP Session-Sender
   packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated mode, see
   Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see Figure 4.

        The above text implies some potential for UDP payload size variability
        for the STAMP packets. However, the actual definition appear to have
        fixed sizes. Can you please clarify if I have missed something that
        enables the STAMP packet to have variable size?



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----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sure this will be easy to either explain to me or re-phrase:

Sections 4 and 6 both say something like "MUST be agreed by all users of the
network".  What does that really mean?  How is it remotely possible to get
agreement from all users of your network?  How is it remotely possible that
they could understand what you're asking them to agree to?





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----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

We don't ever clearly state that the protocol allows for packet sizes
other than the listed 44- and 112-octet variants, that content larger
than that is to be treated as padding unless directed otherwise by
configuration, that the reflected packet must be the same size as the
incoming packet, and how a Session-Reflector should set any such padding
that it needs to add in order to produce a same-sized packet.

This document hardcodes the truncated HMAC-SHA-256 algorithm.  Per BCP
201, what is the procedure for cryptographic algorithm agility?

Please also consider the discussion in BCP 107 about key lifecycles and
key management, including whether it is appropriate to use a
key-derivation function to produce short-term (e.g., per flow) keys from
a long-lived key (e.g., one fixed in static configuration).

What is the input plaintext to the HMAC computation?  In the case of
future extensions, does the HMAC field remain at its current fixed
offset in the packet or move to always be the last 16 octets?  Is any
additional padding/TLV content protected by the HMAC?

What error does the error estimate ... estimate?
Clock skew between sender and receiver?

I think we need to require some level of cryptographic protection
whenever control information is included in a Session-Sender's test
packet.  That is, that a Session-Reflector MUST NOT act on control
information received in unauthenticated packets.  (That said, this
document itself does not describe a way to include control information,
so perhaps the note about "optional control information communicated in
the Session-Sender's test packet" in Section 4 is misplaced.

In Section 4.2.1:

   o  Timestamp and Receiver Timestamp fields are each eight octets
      long.  The format of these fields, NTP or PTPv2, indicated by the
      Z flag of the Error Estimate field as described in Section 4.1.

I think you need to explicitly say that "Timestamp" is echoed from the
received packet and "Receiver Timestamp" is determined locally as close
to (reciept? transmission?) as possible.

I think we need greater clarity on whether the normative statements in
Section 4.4 apply only to STAMP peers that are aware they are
interacting with TWAMP Light, or apply to all STAMP peers (see Comment
for further discussion on why the current text seems internally
inconsistent).


In Section 4.1.1:

   o  Timestamp is eight octets long field.  STAMP node MUST support
      Network Time Protocol (NTP) version 4 64-bit timestamp format
      [RFC5905], the format used in [RFC5357].  STAMP node MAY support
      IEEE 1588v2 Precision Time Protocol truncated 64-bit timestamp
      format [IEEE.1588.2008], the format used in [RFC8186].

I think a note that which one is in use will be configured by the
configuration/management function is in order.  Except that the Z bit
below confuses things terribly...

      The STAMP Session-Sender and Session-Reflector MAY use, not use,
      or set value of the Z field in accordance with the timestamp
      format in use.  This optional field is to enhance operations, but
      local configuration or defaults could be used in its place.

... since, as noted by the secdir reviewer, this line just confuses
everything.  Either keep the "must be zero" semantics of 4656 or the
"MUST match reality" semantics of 8186, but this middle case is actively
harmful.

(I also support Barry and Magnus' Discusses.)


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Section 1

I'll note several grammar nits, inline, though perhaps some of them will
not apply after the rewrite in response to the secdir review:

   Development and deployment of Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol

"the Two-Way"

   (TWAMP) [RFC5357] and its extensions, e.g., [RFC6038] that defined
   features such as Reflect Octets and Symmetrical Size for TWAMP

comma after TWAMP

   provided invaluable experience.  Several independent implementations
   exist, have been deployed and provide important operational
   performance measurements.  At the same time, there has been
   noticeable interest in using a more straightforward mechanism for
   active performance monitoring that can provide deterministic behavior
   and inherit separation of control (vendor-specific configuration or

"inherit" from what?

   orchestration) and test functions.  One of such is Performance

"One such mechanism is"

   Measurement from IP Edge to Customer Equipment using TWAMP Light from
   Broadband Forum [BBF.TR-390] used as the reference TWAMP Light that,

I'm not sure what the intent here is, but maybe ", which is used as the
reference TWAMP Light".

   according to [RFC8545], includes sub-set of TWAMP-Test functions in

I'd also suggest starting a new sentence for "According to [RFC8545]"
(and adding the then-needed "this" and "a" for "this includes a").

   combination with other applications that provide, for example,
   control and security.  This document defines an active performance
   measurement test protocol, Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol
   (STAMP), that enables measurement of both one-way and round-trip
   performance metrics like delay, delay variation, and packet loss.

I agree with the secdir reviewer that the relationship between STAMP and
TWAMP Light could be much more clear.

Section 2.1

   MBZ May be Zero

I commonly see this expand to "Must be zero"; requiring the sender to
not set any bits seems more likely to preserve the ability to use the
field for future extensibility, since a recipient that sees a nonzero
bit knows it was consciously set (i.e., with intent to use the
extension) rather than inadvertently set by someone expecting it to be
ignored.
(Also, if the bits are covered under the HMAC, then the recipient can't
actually ignore them, since they have to be used to verify the HMAC.)

Section 3

   be achieved through various means.  Command Line Interface, OSS/BSS
   (operations support system/business support system as a combination
   of two systems used to support a range of telecommunication services)
   using SNMP or controllers in Software-Defined Networking using
   Netconf/YANG are but a few examples.

nit: if "using SNMP or controllers[...]" is supposed to be separate from
"OSS/BSS", then some additional punctuation/conjunction is needed.

Section 4

   number.  A STAMP implementation of Session-Sender MUST be able to use
   UDP port numbers from User, a.k.a.  Registered, Ports and Dynamic,
   a.k.a.  Private or Ephemeral, Ports ranges defined in [RFC6335].

Able to use as source, destination, or both?  (We just talked about
destination but not source in the previous sentence.)

Section 4.1

   Because STAMP supports symmetrical test packets, STAMP Session-Sender
   packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated mode, see
   Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see Figure 4.

nit: I don't see how merely "support"ing (as opposed to "require"ing or
"use"ing) symmetrical packets implies these minimum packet sizes.  (That
is, I find the word "because" unjustified absent some statement that
requires the Session-Reflector packets to be that size and a requirement
for the symmetry is present.)

Section 4.2

      That implies that the STAMP Session-Reflector MUST keep a state
      for each accepted STAMP-test session, uniquely identifying STAMP-
      test packets to one such session instance, and enabling adding a
      sequence number in the test reply that is individually incremented
      on a per-session basis.

How does it "accept a STAMP-test session"?

Section 4.2.1

      *  in the stateful mode the Session-Reflector counts the received
         STAMP test packets in each test session and uses that counter
         to set the value of the Sequence Number field.

Should we say anything about whether the initial sequence number (having
received one packet from the Session-Sender) is zero or one?

Section 4.2.2

                                                              Also,
   STAMP Session-Reflector test packet format in authenticated mode
   includes a key (HMAC) ([RFC2104]) hash at the end of the PDU.  The
   detailed use of the HMAC field is in Section 4.3.

nit: "keyed"

Section 4.3

I think we should have a statement about HMAC key (non-)reuse across
separate measurement sessions.

I agree with the secdir reviewer that the confidentiality protection
seems like something that would be done at a "lower" level, not a
"higher" level.

Section 4.4

   In the former case, the Session-Sender MAY not be aware that its

It's unclear that this "MAY" is normative as opposed to descriptive.

   Session-Reflector does not support STAMP.  For example, a TWAMP Light
   Session-Reflector may not support the use of UDP port 862 as defined
   in [RFC8545].  Thus STAMP Session-Sender MAY use port numbers as
   defined in Section 4.  If any of STAMP extensions are used, the TWAMP
   Light Session-Reflector will view them as Packet Padding field.  The
   Session-Sender SHOULD use the default format for its timestamps -
   NTP.  And it MAY use PTPv2 timestamp format.

Given the above note about not knowing that the peer is TWAMP Light vs.
STAMP, it seems that this SHOULD/MAY apply to all STAMP implementations,
not just ones that are interacting with TWAMP Light.  Which in turn might
suggest that the normative statements are best made in a different
section.
(Also (nit), where do we say that NTP is the default format?)

   In the latter scenario, if a TWAMP Light Session-Sender does not
   support the use of UDP port 862, the test management system MUST set
   STAMP Session-Reflector to use UDP port number as defined in
   Section 4.  If the TWAMP Light Session-Sender includes Packet Padding
   field in its transmitted packet, the STAMP Session-Reflector will
   return the reflected packet of the symmetrical size if the size of
   the received test packet is larger than the size of the STAMP base
   packet.  The Session-Reflector MUST be set to use the default format
   for its timestamps, NTP.

On the other hand, if we take the same approach here, and assume that
the Session-Reflector may not know that the Session-Sender is TWAMP
Light vs. STAMP, then this MUST would seem to always apply, and thus
prevent the Session-Reflector from ever using the PTPv2 timestamp
format, in which case the text related to its doing so is "dead code"
and should be removed to avoid confusion.

Section 8.2

RFC 2104 needs to be a normative reference.  The truncation of the HMAC
is simple enough that we probably don't need to consider RFC 4868
normative just for it, though.



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----------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCUSS:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

(1) Section 4.3.  The text does not explicitly state the data on which the HMAC
is computed (i.e., bytes 1 to the end of the last MBZ field of the message?)

(2) Section 6.  Per “In general, all the security considerations related to
TWAMP-Test, discussed in [RFC5357] apply to STAMP.”, what exact guidance is
relevant here:

-- Section 6 (Security Considerations) of RFC5357 says follow the guidance of
RFC4656 and guidance on the OWAMP Server-Greeting messages, only the former
seems relevant

-- Section 6 (Security Considerations) of RFC4656 has:

Section 6.1 which discusses authenticated and encrypted mode of OWAMP; but
STAMP has no encrypted mode.  The claims about authenticate mode seem to be
similar to OWAMP, but that’s not explicitly said

Section 6.2 discusses DoS, seems to have some related guidance but also
discusses TCP handshakes

Section 6.3 discusses covert channels, this seems relevant

Section 6.4 seems to discuss key management that section 4.3 of this draft
seems to suggest is out of scope

Section 6.5 seems to provide guidance on resource provisioning but uses the
KeyID primitive that doesn’t appear present in this draft

[please review the other sections too ...]


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I support Barry Leiba’s DISCUSS.

I also support Magnus Westerlund’s DISCUSS.  See #4.

(2) Section 4.1.1.  The sequence number is defined in terms of a “new session”.
 However, I couldn’t find the precise definition of a “session” – how is new
one initiated?  terminated?

(3) Section 4.2.1.  Per Session-Sender TTL, this field is defined, the guidance
on generating its value is clear, but its use is not explained.

(4) Section 4.3.  Related question to Magnus Westerlund’s DISCUSS, what is the
planned approach for crypto agility?

(5) Section 4.3.  Per, “HMAC uses its own key, and the definition of the
mechanism to distribute the HMAC key is outside the scope of this
specification.”

-- What is being suggested by “uses its own key”?

-- Is it expected that each Session-Sender/Reflector pair would have a unique
key?

-- Recommend being clearer on what’s out of scope, perhaps something on the
order of: s/… the definition of the mechanism to distribute the HMAC key is
outside the scope of this specification./

… key management and the mechanisms to distribute the HMAC key is outside the
scope of this specification.”

(5) Section 4.3.  Thanks for responded to Russ Housley’s SECDIR review and
proposing the new Section 4.3 and 4.4.  It provides helpful clarity.

(6) Editorial Nits
-- Section 3.  I didn’t understand the title of ‘Softwarization of Performance
Management’.  The text of the section seems to simply describe the elements of
Figure 1 and suggests a few ways to configure the these elements.

-- Section 4.  Typo.  s/MUST use received/MUST received/

-- Section 6.  Editorial.  s/Load of STAMP test packets/The load of the STAMP
test packets/



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Martin Vigoureux has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: No Objection

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I support Barry's DISCUSS.

Also a few points are not clear:

   o  Stateless - STAMP Session-Reflector does not maintain test state
      and will reflect the received sequence number without
      modification.
This is not the only thing that the reflector reflects, right?

      The STAMP Session-Sender and Session-Reflector MAY use, not use,
      or set value of the Z field in accordance with the timestamp
      format in use.  This optional field is to enhance operations, but
      local configuration or defaults could be used in its place.
What do you mean by "use"and how does that differ from "set"?
Also the fact that it is described as optional here but as "MUST/SHOULD be set
to NTP" in interop with TWAMP light is confusing.



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From: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <acm@research.att.com>
To: Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net>, "draft-ietf-ippm-metric-registry.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-metric-registry.all@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: AD review of draft-ietf-ippm-metric-registry-19
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From: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <acm@research.att.com>
To: Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net>, "draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry.all@ietf.org>
CC: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>, Michelle Cotton <michelle.cotton@iana.org>
Thread-Topic: AD review of draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry-11
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Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 12:42:15 +0000
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From: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <acm@research.att.com>
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From: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <acm@research.att.com>
To: Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net>, "draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry.all@ietf.org>
CC: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>, Michelle Cotton <michelle.cotton@iana.org>
Thread-Topic: AD review of draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry-11
Thread-Index: AQHVXO7t1Dc8eia/wEeItN2FmjYM8qcgzyGQ
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 16:35:45 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/ATrwzCOO63XKTdiEVtS68nzI5w8>
Subject: Re: [ippm] AD review of draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry-11
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Subject: Re: [ippm] AD review of draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry-11
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Hi Al,


See below.

> On 8. Sep 2019, at 18:35, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Mirja,=20
> I pressed SEND accidentally, even with wrong name, Sorry!
> ("More coffee, please.") Continuing on reference topics.

No worries!

>=20
> We've started the discussion on Intended Status,
> so I'll start with the quicker questions and comments
> on initial-registry draft below, on references topics.

Thanks!

>=20
> Al=20
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2019 11:47 AM
>> To: draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry.all@ietf.org
>> Cc: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>; Michelle Cotton
>> <michelle.cotton@iana.org>
>> Subject: AD review of draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry-11
>>=20
>> Hi authors, hi all,
>>=20
>> We need to discuss at least one bigger question on the intended =
status
>> before we  can move ahead. However, as you can seen I have more
>> questions/comments below.
>>=20
>> The bigger status question first:
>> The intended status is PS. The shepherd write-up does not provide any
>> additional information about why this status is appropriate. I would
>> assume that informational is actually more appropriate. I don=E2=80=99t=
 recall out
>> of my head if/when this was discussed and I thought I rather ask than
>> searching the list archive and minutes=E2=80=A6 Is this the right =
status and why?
>> And if so, please reflect in the write-up!
>>=20
>>=20
>> And then a couple more (hopefully) quicker comments/questions:
>>=20
>> - I know this was already reviewed by IANA (Michelle is also =
cc=E2=80=99ed),
>> however, as far as I can see all Administrative Information (Status,
>> Requestor, Revision, and Revision Date) and maybe even the ID don=E2=80=
=99t need
>> to be part of the template because IANA will anyway assign them based =
on
>> the instructions given in draft-ietf-ippm-metric-registry. Or did =
IANA
>> explicitly request to also include these parts?
> [acm]=20
> I think Michelle and I were more comfortable that the=20
> each section/template indicated exactly where IANA assignments
> were needed. It's the line between the shared responsibility of Expert=20=

> Review and IANA to create a complete entry in the registry.

Okay.

>=20
>>=20
>> - Then for the Change Controller that should usually be the IESG =
rather
>> than the IETF. Did IANA comment on that?
> [acm]=20
> Yes, this column is something IANA/Michelle asked for, and I think we=20=

> could be convinced that IESG could replace IETF. But to me,=20
> "Standards Action" is IETF.

At least in the port registry we have the IESG as change controller. I =
was assuming that the =E2=80=9Cnormal=E2=80=9D practice=E2=80=A6 maybe =
Michelle can check that.

>=20
>>=20
>> - And one minor point: I guess the secY part of the name could =
already be
>> filled out, no? However, I should probably have asked that on review =
of
>> draft-ietf-ippm-metric-registry already but I was actually wondering =
if
>> the decision to include the RFC number and section in the metric name =
is
>> appropriate. Can you maybe lay out what the reasons for this are (and
>> maybe also explain in the draft as his might come up again during =
IESG
>> review otherwise)=E2=80=A6?
> [acm]=20
> The reason is simple, a draft may specify more than one registry =
entry,
> as -initial-registry does.
>=20
> I left the secY part general in case of changes during review.
> It's very easy to fill this field at the end, when there is no=20
> possible shuffling of section order that then requires name edits,=20
> too.=20

Given we are basically =E2=80=9Cat the end" I recommend to fill it now.

>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Then then on references again:
>>=20
>> - This draft references two obsoleted RFCs (RFC2679 and RFC2680). I =
assume
>> this is an oversight and the references need to be updated?
> [acm]=20
> Yes, I need to use a text editor and globally update to 7679 and 7680,
> XMLMind doesn't seem to let me search in the reference fields easily
> (when viewing the XML source).

Good.

>=20
>>=20
>> - Also given you rely heavily on [Trammell-14], I think this needs to =
be a
>> normative reference (and maybe [Strowes] as well?). The more stable
>> pointer for [Trammell-14] is actually here:
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
>> 3A__link.springer.com_chapter_10.1007_978-2D3-2D642-2D54999-2D1-
>> =
5F2&d=3DDwIFaQ&c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3DOfsSu8kTIltVyD1oL72cBw&m=3Dh=
wJZg-
>> =
IdxQ9507aw2mjEKKOSWIEVnc8nwr7B_QiOyCU&s=3DHSEAeC_uI-vofX5ZWPSCH-R4Ph8Gu618=
-
>> YtZJ4pTAgE&e=3D
>> But to be honest the split between normative and informational =
isn=E2=80=99t
>> actually very clear to me here=E2=80=A6?
> [acm]
> I welcome any advice on this too. If the reference is essential to=20
> implementing the specification, then Normative, but I'm unsure about=20=

> making a publication Normative (as opposed to a standard).

I actually had the feeling it=E2=80=99s essential to implement =
correctly. Or alternatively maybe revise the text a bit. As long as your =
have a stable reference I think it can be normative. So I thought =
publications are fine...

>=20
> I have fixed the pointer, we need it anyway, thanks for that.
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> And on the shepherd write-up:
>>=20
>> It=E2=80=99s indicated that not all authors have replied to the IPR =
question. This
>> need to be checked and respectively reflected in the shepherd =
write-up
>> before we can move ahead!
> [acm]
> If I can know who is missing, I can bug them.
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> And some smaller technical questions/nits:
>>=20
>> - Is it correct that T0 in section 4 is defined in both subsections =
4.3.5
>> and 4.4.2?
> [acm]
> It seems better to define T0 with the Run-time Parameters=20
> and output reporting.
> So deleted in 4.3.2 (Packet Stream Generation),=20
> retained in 4.3.5 (Run-time) and 4.4.2 (output).
> Same for section 5.

Good!

>=20
>>=20
>> - Why is an URI given (only) in section 6.1.3?
> [acm]
> This one avoided the deletion of all URNs, with the label URI...
>=20
>>  Also section 7.1.3 and 8.1.3.: http:\\www.iana.org\ ... <name> -> I
>> think this should be: https://www.iana.org/=20
> [acm]
> just s/http/https/ AFAICT.=20
> http was correct at some point in this draft's life, fixed both.

Good!

>>=20
>>=20
>> Some more editorial comments/nits:
>>=20
>> - I find it actually unnecessary or rather confusing that most (not =
all)
>> sections start with a sentence/paragraph explaining what the section =
is
>> about (e.g. "Additional (Informational) details for this entry=E2=80=9D=
). I would
>> think this is sufficiently explained in =
draft-ietf-ippm-metric-registry
>> and does not need to be repeated here (in this already long =
document).
>> Also note that section 8.6 inconsistently doesn=E2=80=99t have any =
content while
>> 10.6. says =E2=80=9CNone.=E2=80=9D.
> [acm]
> I anticipated that there are many approaches to writing=20
> registry entries: one will be to simply copy an existing
> entry and make changes (without ever reading the Registry=20
> RFC). What we have mostly are instructions at the Category level,
> and maybe a few cases of Column-level instructions that were
> left behind after deleting most of them. When I see some text
> inside < >, I'll take it out if it doesn't belong.

This is mostly a question of consistency as well. So please check. There =
is also text that is not in pointy brackets in some section, which was =
probably initially copied from the template and is not needed anymore =
(and got only removed in some sections but not others).

>=20
>>=20
>> - Also these comments in section 7 and 8 are probably supposed to be
>> removed:
>> " <insert name of the output type, raw or a selected summary =
statistic>=E2=80=9D
>> =E2=80=A6?
> [acm]
> That's what I'm looking for, thanks.
>=20
>>=20
>> - I found this in section 10.2.2: "@@@@@ others??=E2=80=9D. I guess =
there is
>> something missing? Also in this part, I don=E2=80=99t think SYN and =
FIN should be
>> set at the same time, no? And rather than providing the Kind and =
Length of
>> the TSopt, I would recommend to provide a pointer to the respective =
RFC.
> [acm]
> Yes, I've fixed all of this, thanks.

Thanks!

>=20
> Please let me know if you want to see diffs with the=20
> with the drafts and the current working text.


No, just go ahead and submit a new version.=20

>=20
> Brian had asked some shepherding questions,
> nits and other. I just replied to him and fixed the=20
> working text of -initial-registry.

Yes, thanks!

Mirja


>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> And finally one/two/three more general question(s) at the end, that I
>> probably should also have asked already on my review for =
draft-ietf-ippm-
>> metric-registry:
>>=20
>> Is it actually intended that basically all the text in this RFC gets
>> copied into the registry? And what is expected to be on the URL page =
then?
>> Wouldn=E2=80=99t it be necessary to also define a format for that =
page in order to
>> be of any use?
>>=20
>>=20
>> Mirja
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20


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Subject: Re: [ippm] AD review of draft-ietf-ippm-metric-registry-19
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Hi Al,

Okay to all! About the experts. How should we figure out other experts? =
Do have people in mind? Should I approach them, do you want too speak to =
them directly?=20

Mirja



> On 8. Sep 2019, at 00:09, MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Mirja,
> Catching-up with your comments on the registry draft.
> Please see replies below, and thanks again for your review.
> Al
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mirja Kuehlewind [mailto:ietf@kuehlewind.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2019 9:44 AM
>> To: draft-ietf-ippm-metric-registry.all@ietf.org
>> Cc: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>; Michelle Cotton
>> <michelle.cotton@iana.org>
>> Subject: AD review of draft-ietf-ippm-metric-registry-19
>>=20
>> Hi all,
>>=20
>> I just reviewed draft-ietf-ippm-metric-registry-19. Thanks for the =
well-
>> written document! I have one process question on the following part =
before
>> we can move ahead:
>>=20
>> Sec 8.1:
>>  "Submission to IANA MAY be the result of IETF Standards Action, =
where
>>   an approved Internet Draft proposes one or more Registered
>>   Performance Metrics to be added to the Performance Metrics =
Registry,
>>   including the text of the proposed Registered Performance =
Metric(s).=E2=80=9D
>>=20
>> Maybe I=E2=80=99m confused but I would think that as soon as a =
document is
>> approved by the IESG, it=E2=80=99s too late for an Expert review =
because an
>> approved RFC that contains instruction for IANA will usually be
>> implemented by IANA as approved. I believe what we usually do is to
>> request the new entry before IESG evaluation and simply document in =
the
>> RFC that an registration was performed, or in case of e.g. the port
>> registry (where however the policy is IETF Review for system ports) =
we ask
>> the experts for review during the IESG evaluation process and take =
this as
>> input for the IESG to make a decision on approval (rather than as =
input
>> for IANA). I=E2=80=99m cc=E2=80=99ing Michelle, as I understood that =
she was already
>> involved in reviewing this document, and she might have further
>> insights/considerations.
> [acm]=20
> I agree, here's what I changed the working text to read:
>=20
> Submission to IANA MAY be during IESG review (leading to IETF=20
> Standards Action), where an Internet Draft proposes one or ...
>=20
>>=20
>> Also on experts: Did the group/chairs/authors already consider =
possible
>> candidates? If not, is anybody of the author team willing to serve? I
>> assume having 2 experts should be sufficient, right?
> [acm]=20
> Yes, I assume I'll act as one of the experts, and we'll need a few =
more=20
> who can share the load, especially if a quick response is required.
>=20
>>=20
>> Thanks!
>> Mirja
>>=20
>> P.S.: Two nits:
>> - sec 7.3.2: "The packet generation stream may require parameters =
such as
>> the the average packet rate =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D -> two =E2=80=9Cthe=E2=80=
=9D
>> - sec 8.2: "why the existing entry shuold be revised=E2=80=9D -> =
s/shuold/should/
> [acm]=20
> thanks, fixed.
>=20
> Other Questions arose:
>=20
> Sorry one more thing on references: There are two normative reference =
to obsoleted RFC (RFC2141 and RFC4148). I think it would be more =
appropriate to make these references informational instead. Also there =
is a new Downref to RFC6248, however, I think that could also be an =
informational reference instead.
>=20
> [acm]
> I agree, I moved 4148 and 6248 to Info, can't find 2141 in the working =
text,=20
> assume I deleted it with unused references.=20
>=20
> @Bill: as the document shepherd it would be could to point out these =
things in the shepherd write-up. If the authors/group decides to move =
these references to informational, there is no additional action require =
from you. However, if not, the write-up should be updated accordingly.
>=20
> Thanks!
> Mirja
>=20
>=20
> Here are your questions for the registry
> that came-up during review of initial contents draft:
>=20
>>=20
>> And finally one/two/three more general question(s) at the end, that I
>> probably should also have asked already on my review for =
draft-ietf-ippm-
>> metric-registry:
>>=20
>> Is it actually intended that basically all the text in this RFC gets
>> copied into the registry?=20
> [acm]
> Sort of. All the text for each metric (section) is a file that the =
registry
> entry points to. Registry draft section 10.3 says:
>=20
> The "URIs" column will have a URL to the full template of each =
registry entry. The Registry Entry text SHALL be HTML-ized to aid the =
reader, with links to reference RFCs (similar to the way that Internet =
Drafts are HTML-ized, the same tool can perform the function).
>=20
>> And what is expected to be on the URL page then?
> [acm]
> The URL points to a page =3D one section of the -ippm-initial-registry =
draft.
> Future URLs might point to text from a section of an RFC for a new =
metric.
>=20
>> Wouldn=E2=80=99t it be necessary to also define a format for that =
page in order to
>> be of any use?
> [acm]
> It's the "full template", filled-out for each registered metric.
>=20
> It really helps to have the mock-up we worked-out with IANA
> available to see the "running code". I'll send you the mock-up
> in separate mail. We looked at this in several IPPM sessions=20
> over the years, and on this one the header is fairly up to date,
> but the URLs point to "old" sections of the initial contents draft.
> Also, the column widths are not ideal in the mock-up.
>=20
> It might help to have a live URL to the mocked-up registry
> that we can share with others (when this question comes up again,
> and it will during IESG review, I assure you!).
>=20
> Al


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 12:43:45 -0700
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To: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org,  Tal Mizrahi <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com>, IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>,  IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Magnus Westerlund's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Magnus,
thank you for the review and thoughtful, pointed questions. Please find my
answers in-line under GIM>> tag.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 3:54 PM Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Magnus Westerlund has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Two very much discussing discusses. However, I would really like to hear
> the
> answer to these concerns before clearing.
>
> 1. Section 4.3: Is the HMAC field size of 16 bytes hard coded? If there
> ever
> would exist a need to deploy another integrity solution, even if the actual
> algorithm used to construct the tag can be agreed by the management, there
> appear to exist a hard look in to use 16-byte tags. Have this issue been
> considered?
>
GIM>> Indeed, this specification defines the use of only one algorithm and
only 16 bytes-long HMAC field. Your question prompted the discussion among
authors and we believe that in a future specification it would be feasible
to extend supporting a number of algorithms and different lengths of HMAC
field both being defined through extension to STAMP YANG data model.

>
>         2. Section 6:
>         The possible impact of the
>    STAMP test packets on the network MUST be thoroughly analyzed, and
>    the use of STAMP for each case MUST be agreed by all users on the
>    network before starting the STAMP test session.
>
>         I assume some potential issues are know, shouldn't they really be
>         listed here in the security consideration to further motivate why
> the
>         analysis needs to happen.
>
GIM>> This is in reference to using numbers from the User range as the
destination port number. Would adding the reference to the case of using
the port numbers from the User range address your concern? Or rather refer
to Section 4, as it includes more discussion (see below)?

>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>         1. Section 4:
>         Before using numbers from the User Ports range, the possible impact
>    on the network MUST be carefully studied and agreed by all users of
>    the network.
>
>         Is the above sentence missing to list an important assumption? Is
> the
>         assumption that by using the registred destination port an operator
>         that sees to much STAMP traffic can simply filter it out and that
> way
>         deal with the traffic, something which is not possible when using
> an
>         locally decided port? If that is the case, this assumption should
>         probably be noted.
>
GIM>> That is a very good point but our primary motivation for this
cautionary note (or strong warning) was that by allowing STAMP to use port
numbers from the User range, ports that may be already assigned to
protocols, creates a DDOS attack vector. As for the filtering STAMP traffic
out, I think that even if the destination port is one from the Dynamic
range, for a relatively long test session it can be filtered out.

>
>         2. Section 3 and 4, and 4.1.1: What is a STAMP Session? Is that a
>         measurment session between one specific and sender and a specific
>         reflector for a time duration?  The defenition of the session do
> matter
>         if one intended to enable a single sender to use multiple
> reflectors,
>         and if that can be a single session or always multiple indepdendent
>         ones. Would appreciate a definition what a session is. If it is
>         possible to send STAMP traffic using a multicast or broadcast
> address
>         should be made explicit.
>
GIM>> Your interpretation is correct, STAMP session is implicitly defined
as p2p. And that is what reflected in the STAMP YANG model. Would the
following text make it clearer:
NEW TEXT:
   In this document, a measurement session also referred to as
   STAMP session, is the session between one specific Session-Sender and
   one particular Session-Reflector for a time duration.

>
>         3.  Section 4.1.1.:
>         Timestamp is eight octets long field.  STAMP node MUST support
>       Network Time Protocol (NTP) version 4 64-bit timestamp format
>       [RFC5905], the format used in [RFC5357].  STAMP node MAY support
>       IEEE 1588v2 Precision Time Protocol truncated 64-bit timestamp
>       format [IEEE.1588.2008], the format used in [RFC8186].
>
>         Is the clock source here something that may be relevant or simply
>         information the management functions should capture. I think there
> is a
>         similar issue to that of RTP faced when it comes to understand
> what the
>         timestamp actually represent and thus be used correctly. RTP clock
>         source specification is RFC 7273
>         (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7273/)
>
GIM>> NTP and PTP encodings have a different interpretation of the Fraction
field of the Timestamp field. In my experience, PTP format is native for
the data plane, while NTP is more used at the control plane. Original
extension to TWAMP has been described in RFC 8186
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8186/>.

>
>         4. Section 4.1:
>            Because STAMP supports symmetrical test packets, STAMP
> Session-Sender
>    packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated mode, see
>    Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see Figure 4.
>
>         The above text implies some potential for UDP payload size
> variability
>         for the STAMP packets. However, the actual definition appear to
> have
>         fixed sizes. Can you please clarify if I have missed something that
>         enables the STAMP packet to have variable size?
>
GIM>> I think that the text can be improved by characterizing the listed
sizes as "base". The variable length of a test packet in STAMP is supported
by using Extra Padding TLV defined in draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv/>. Below
is the proposed update:
OLD TEXT:
   Because STAMP supports symmetrical test packets, STAMP Session-Sender
   packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated mode, see
   Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see Figure 4.
NEW TEXT:
   STAMP supports symmetrical test packets.  The base STAMP Session-
   Sender packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated
   mode, see Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see
   Figure 4.  The variable length of a test packet in STAMP is supported
   by using Extra Padding TLV defined in
   [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv].

With the new reference, should I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv be moved to
the Normative References list or may remain in the Informative list?

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Magnus,<div>thank you for the review a=
nd thoughtful, pointed questions. Please find my answers in-line under GIM&=
gt;&gt; tag.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, =
Sep 4, 2019 at 3:54 PM Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:noreply@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Magnus Westerlund h=
as entered the following ballot position for<br>
draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s=
tatement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/" rel=3D"=
noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i=
ppm-stamp/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
DISCUSS:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Two very much discussing discusses. However, I would really like to hear th=
e<br>
answer to these concerns before clearing.<br>
<br>
1. Section 4.3: Is the HMAC field size of 16 bytes hard coded? If there eve=
r<br>
would exist a need to deploy another integrity solution, even if the actual=
<br>
algorithm used to construct the tag can be agreed by the management, there<=
br>
appear to exist a hard look in to use 16-byte tags. Have this issue been<br=
>
considered?<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Indeed, this specification def=
ines the use of only one algorithm and only 16 bytes-long HMAC field. Your =
question prompted the discussion among authors and we believe that in a fut=
ure specification it would be feasible to extend supporting a number of alg=
orithms and different lengths of HMAC field both being defined through exte=
nsion to STAMP YANG data model.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddin=
g-left:1ex">
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2. Section 6:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The possible impact of the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0STAMP test packets on the network MUST be thoroughly analyzed,=
 and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the use of STAMP for each case MUST be agreed by all users on =
the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0network before starting the STAMP test session.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I assume some potential issues are know, should=
n&#39;t they really be<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 listed here in the security consideration to fu=
rther motivate why the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 analysis needs to happen.<br></blockquote><div>=
GIM&gt;&gt; This is in reference to using numbers from the User range as th=
e destination port number. Would adding the reference to the case of using =
the port numbers from the User range address your concern? Or rather refer =
to Section 4, as it includes more discussion (see below)?=C2=A0</div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1=
px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
COMMENT:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1. Section 4:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Before using numbers from the User Ports range,=
 the possible impact<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0on the network MUST be carefully studied and agreed by all use=
rs of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the network.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Is the above sentence missing to list an import=
ant assumption? Is the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 assumption that by using the registred destinat=
ion port an operator<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that sees to much STAMP traffic can simply filt=
er it out and that way<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 deal with the traffic, something which is not p=
ossible when using an<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 locally decided port? If that is the case, this=
 assumption should<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 probably be noted.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;=
&gt; That is a very good point but our primary motivation for this cautiona=
ry note (or strong warning) was that by allowing STAMP to use port numbers =
from the User range, ports that may be already assigned to protocols, creat=
es a DDOS attack vector. As for the filtering STAMP traffic out, I think th=
at even if the destination port is one from the Dynamic range, for a relati=
vely long test session it can be filtered out.</div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,=
204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2. Section 3 and 4, and 4.1.1: What is a STAMP =
Session? Is that a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 measurment session between one specific and sen=
der and a specific<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 reflector for a time duration?=C2=A0 The defeni=
tion of the session do matter<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 if one intended to enable a single sender to us=
e multiple reflectors,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and if that can be a single session or always m=
ultiple indepdendent<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ones. Would appreciate a definition what a sess=
ion is. If it is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 possible to send STAMP traffic using a multicas=
t or broadcast address<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 should be made explicit.<br></blockquote><div>G=
IM&gt;&gt; Your interpretation is correct, STAMP session is implicitly defi=
ned as p2p. And that is what reflected in the STAMP YANG model. Would the f=
ollowing text make it clearer:</div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0I=
n this document, a measurement session also referred to as<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
STAMP session, is the session between one specific Session-Sender and<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0one particular Session-Reflector for a time duration.<br></div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 3.=C2=A0 Section <a href=3D"http://4.1.1." rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">4.1.1.</a>:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Timestamp is eight octets long field.=C2=A0 STA=
MP node MUST support<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Network Time Protocol (NTP) version 4 64-bit timestamp=
 format<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC5905], the format used in [RFC5357].=C2=A0 STAMP n=
ode MAY support<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IEEE 1588v2 Precision Time Protocol truncated 64-bit t=
imestamp<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 format [IEEE.1588.2008], the format used in [RFC8186].=
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Is the clock source here something that may be =
relevant or simply<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 information the management functions should cap=
ture. I think there is a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 similar issue to that of RTP faced when it come=
s to understand what the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 timestamp actually represent and thus be used c=
orrectly. RTP clock<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 source specification is RFC 7273<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rf=
c7273/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d=
oc/rfc7273/</a>)<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; NTP and PTP encodings hav=
e a different interpretation of the Fraction field of the Timestamp field. =
In my experience, PTP format is native for the data plane, while NTP is mor=
e used at the control plane. Original extension to TWAMP has been described=
 in <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8186/" target=3D"_blank"=
>RFC 8186</a>.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 4. Section 4.1:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Because STAMP supports symmetrical=
 test packets, STAMP Session-Sender<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated mode=
, see<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see Figure=
 4.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The above text implies some potential for UDP p=
ayload size variability<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 for the STAMP packets. However, the actual defi=
nition appear to have<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 fixed sizes. Can you please clarify if I have m=
issed something that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 enables the STAMP packet to have variable size?=
<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I think that the text can be improved by =
characterizing the listed sizes as &quot;base&quot;. The variable length of=
 a test packet in STAMP is supported by using Extra Padding TLV defined in =
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tl=
v/" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv</a>. Below is the pr=
oposed update:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Because STAMP sup=
ports symmetrical test packets, STAMP Session-Sender<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0packet=
 has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated mode, see<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see Figure 4.<br></d=
iv><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0STAMP supports symmetrical test pa=
ckets.=C2=A0 The base STAMP Session-<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Sender packet has a mi=
nimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0mode, see Figure=
 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Figure 4.=
=C2=A0 The variable length of a test packet in STAMP is supported<br>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0by using Extra Padding TLV defined in<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0[I-D.ietf-ippm=
-stamp-option-tlv].<br></div><div><br></div><div>With the new reference, sh=
ould I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv be moved to the Normative References li=
st or may remain in the Informative list?</div></div></div>

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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 14:00:57 -0700
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Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org,  Tal Mizrahi <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com>, IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>,  IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Barry Leiba's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: (with DISCUSS)
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Hi Barry,
thank you for your pointed question. Please find my explanation and the
proposed updated below under the GIM>> tag.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 9:53 AM Barry Leiba via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
wrote:

> Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm sure this will be easy to either explain to me or re-phrase:
>
> Sections 4 and 6 both say something like "MUST be agreed by all users of
> the
> network".  What does that really mean?  How is it remotely possible to get
> agreement from all users of your network?  How is it remotely possible that
> they could understand what you're asking them to agree to?
>

GIM>> Yes, looking at the bigger picture, at the Internet rather than only
at the domain where the test will be performed makes such condition
unattainable. Would s/network/network domain where the test is planned/  so
that it reads as:

... MUST be agreed by all users on the network domain where the test is
planned ...

make it clearer and the number of parties involved reasonable, practical?
As for what the could be the question users will be asked, I think that it
should verify whether the application that has the port number assigned is
active as the same number will be used as the destination port number in
the STAMP test.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Barry,<div>thank you for your pointed =
question. Please find my explanation and the proposed updated below under t=
he GIM&gt;&gt; tag.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><=
/div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">O=
n Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 9:53 AM Barry Leiba via Datatracker &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:noreply@ietf.org">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Barry Leiba has entered the followin=
g ballot position for<br>
draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s=
tatement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/" rel=3D"=
noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i=
ppm-stamp/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
DISCUSS:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
I&#39;m sure this will be easy to either explain to me or re-phrase:<br>
<br>
Sections 4 and 6 both say something like &quot;MUST be agreed by all users =
of the<br>
network&quot;.=C2=A0 What does that really mean?=C2=A0 How is it remotely p=
ossible to get<br>
agreement from all users of your network?=C2=A0 How is it remotely possible=
 that<br>
they could understand what you&#39;re asking them to agree to?<br></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Yes, looking at the bigger picture, at =
the Internet rather than only at the domain where the test will be performe=
d makes such condition unattainable. Would s/network/network domain where t=
he test is planned/=C2=A0 so that it reads as:</div></div><blockquote style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">.=
.. MUST be agreed by all users on the network domain where the test is plan=
ned ...</div></blockquote><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>make it clearer a=
nd the number of parties involved reasonable, practical?</div><div>As for w=
hat the could be the question users will be asked, I think that it should v=
erify whether the application that has the port number assigned is active a=
s the same number will be used as the destination port number in the STAMP =
test.</div></div></div>

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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 16:36:36 -0700
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Martin Vigoureux's No Objection on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: (with COMMENT)
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Hi Martin,
thank you for your comments and questions. Will follow on to address
Barry's DISCUSS on another thread. In this reply, please find answers to
your comments in-line tagged GIM>>.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 7:05 AM Martin Vigoureux via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Martin Vigoureux has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: No Objection
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I support Barry's DISCUSS.
>
> Also a few points are not clear:
>
>    o  Stateless - STAMP Session-Reflector does not maintain test state
>       and will reflect the received sequence number without
>       modification.
> This is not the only thing that the reflector reflects, right?
>
GIM>> Correct. A Session-Reflector reflects all the information received in
a test packet as well as the value of TTL/Hop Count field. To clarify how
the Stateless mode is different from the Stateful propose the following
update:
OLD TEXT:
      Stateless - STAMP Session-Reflector does not maintain test state
      and will reflect the received sequence number without
      modification.
NEW TEXT:
      Stateless - STAMP Session-Reflector does not maintain test state
      and will use the value in the Sequence Number field in the
      recieved packet as the value for the Sequence Number field in the
      reflected packet.  As a result, values in Sequence Number and
      Session-Sender Sequence Number fields are the same, and only
      round-trip packet loss can be calculated while the reflector is
      operating in stateless mode.

>
>       The STAMP Session-Sender and Session-Reflector MAY use, not use,
>       or set value of the Z field in accordance with the timestamp
>       format in use.  This optional field is to enhance operations, but
>       local configuration or defaults could be used in its place.
> What do you mean by "use"and how does that differ from "set"?
>
GIM>> Yes, it's awkward. We propose the following update:
OLD TEXT:
      The STAMP Session-Sender and Session-Reflector MAY use, not use,
      or set value of the Z field in accordance with the timestamp
      format in use.  This optional field is to enhance operations, but
      local configuration or defaults could be used in its place.
NEW TEXT:
      The STAMP Session-Sender and Session-Reflector MUST use a Z field
      value of 0, (NTP 64 bit format of a timestamp) as the default.
      The STAMP Session-Sender and Session-Reflector MAY optionally set
      the Z field to a value of 1 (PTPv2 truncated format of a
      timestamp).

Also the fact that it is described as optional here but as "MUST/SHOULD be
> set
> to NTP" in interop with TWAMP light is confusing.
>
GIM>> Thank you for pointing to these two references. After reviewing them,
we've concluded that the first is in fact unnecessary because only the
Session-Sender uses timestamp and must be aware of its format. Hence, in
the case when a Session-Reflector supports TWAMP-Light, STAMP
Session-Sender can use any format. Will remove these two sentences:
  The Session-Sender SHOULD use the default format for its timestamps -
   NTP.  And it MAY use PTPv2 timestamp format.
The second reference to the Z flag in the section:
   The Session-Reflector MUST be set to use the default format
   for its timestamps, NTP.
is in sync with the proposed above update.
Would these changes address your concern?

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Martin,<div>thank you for your comment=
s and questions. Will follow on to address Barry&#39;s DISCUSS on another t=
hread. In this reply, please find answers to your comments in-line tagged G=
IM&gt;&gt;.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, S=
ep 5, 2019 at 7:05 AM Martin Vigoureux via Datatracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:noreply@ietf.org">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Martin Vigoureux has entered the follow=
ing ballot position for<br>
draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: No Objection<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
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<br>
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eria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s=
tatement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/" rel=3D"=
noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i=
ppm-stamp/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
COMMENT:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
I support Barry&#39;s DISCUSS.<br>
<br>
Also a few points are not clear:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Stateless - STAMP Session-Reflector does not maintain =
test state<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and will reflect the received sequence number without<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 modification.<br>
This is not the only thing that the reflector reflects, right?<br></blockqu=
ote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Correct. A Session-Reflector reflects all the informat=
ion received in a test packet as well as the value of TTL/Hop Count field. =
To clarify how the Stateless mode is different from the Stateful propose th=
e following update:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Stat=
eless - STAMP Session-Reflector does not maintain test state</div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and will reflect the received sequence number without<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 modification.</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">NEW TEXT:</=
div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Stateless - STAMP Sessi=
on-Reflector does not maintain test state<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and will =
use the value in the Sequence Number field in the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 r=
ecieved packet as the value for the Sequence Number field in the<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reflected packet.=C2=A0 As a result, values in Sequence Numbe=
r and<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Session-Sender Sequence Number fields are the=
 same, and only<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 round-trip packet loss can be calcu=
lated while the reflector is<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 operating in stateless=
 mode.<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The STAMP Session-Sender and Session-Reflector MAY use=
, not use,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 or set value of the Z field in accordance with the tim=
estamp<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 format in use.=C2=A0 This optional field is to enhance=
 operations, but<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 local configuration or defaults could be used in its p=
lace.<br>
What do you mean by &quot;use&quot;and how does that differ from &quot;set&=
quot;?<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Yes, it&#39;s awkward. We propose t=
he following update:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The STAM=
P Session-Sender and Session-Reflector MAY use, not use,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 or set value of the Z field in accordance with the timestamp<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 format in use.=C2=A0 This optional field is to enhance op=
erations, but<br><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 local configuration or defaults =
could be used in its place.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The STAMP Session-Sender and Session-Reflector MUST use a=
 Z field<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 value of 0, (NTP 64 bit format of a timest=
amp) as the default.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The STAMP Session-Sender and S=
ession-Reflector MAY optionally set<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the Z field to =
a value of 1 (PTPv2 truncated format of a<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 timestamp=
).<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex=
">
Also the fact that it is described as optional here but as &quot;MUST/SHOUL=
D be set<br>
to NTP&quot; in interop with TWAMP light is confusing.<br></blockquote><div=
>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for pointing to these two references. After reviewin=
g them, we&#39;ve concluded that the first is in fact unnecessary because o=
nly the Session-Sender uses timestamp and must be aware of its format. Henc=
e, in the case when a Session-Reflector supports TWAMP-Light, STAMP Session=
-Sender can use any format. Will remove these two sentences:</div><div>=C2=
=A0 The Session-Sender SHOULD use the default format for its timestamps -</=
div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0NTP.=C2=A0 And it MAY use PTPv2 timestamp format.</div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote">The second reference to the Z flag in the section:<=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=C2=A0 =C2=A0The Session-Reflector MUST be =
set to use the default format<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0for its timestamps, NTP.<br><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">is in sync with the proposed above update.<=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">Would these changes address your concern?</=
div></div>

--000000000000c7826605923b601f--


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From: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 20:15:07 -0400
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To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org,  Tal Mizrahi <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com>, IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>,  IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Barry Leiba's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: (with DISCUSS)
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Hi, Greg, and thanks for the response.

I think a minor rephrasing of the requirement isn't enough, really.
As I understand it now, after other discussion, it's not that you need
agreement from the users, but that you should put a paragraph (or
maybe a separate section, to highlight the point) that says that this
is not intended for use on the open Internet nor on production
networks, and gives examples of what it *is* intended for... perhaps
test networks, production networks during advertised maintenance
windows, that sort of thing.  And then you don't need to say that the
network's users need to agree, but simply that they need to be aware
that performance testing will be happening during period X, and that
disruptions to normal network operation are possible.  You'd need to
come up with text that the working group agrees with, of course, but I
think that if you do it will address my concern as well as some of the
others that were raised.

Does that make sense?

Barry

On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:01 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Barry,
> thank you for your pointed question. Please find my explanation and the proposed updated below under the GIM>> tag.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 9:53 AM Barry Leiba via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
>>
>> Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for
>> draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss
>>
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>
>>
>> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>>
>>
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> DISCUSS:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I'm sure this will be easy to either explain to me or re-phrase:
>>
>> Sections 4 and 6 both say something like "MUST be agreed by all users of the
>> network".  What does that really mean?  How is it remotely possible to get
>> agreement from all users of your network?  How is it remotely possible that
>> they could understand what you're asking them to agree to?
>
>
> GIM>> Yes, looking at the bigger picture, at the Internet rather than only at the domain where the test will be performed makes such condition unattainable. Would s/network/network domain where the test is planned/  so that it reads as:
>
> ... MUST be agreed by all users on the network domain where the test is planned ...
>
> make it clearer and the number of parties involved reasonable, practical?
> As for what the could be the question users will be asked, I think that it should verify whether the application that has the port number assigned is active as the same number will be used as the destination port number in the STAMP test.


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:34:37 -0700
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To: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org,  Tal Mizrahi <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com>, IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>,  IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Barry Leiba's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: (with DISCUSS)
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--0000000000004aea4405923c30d9
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Hi Barry,
thank you for the clarification. Yes, I agree that a new section can state
it more clearly and give sufficient examples, as you've suggested.
I'll work on it and will share when it is ready.

Regards,
Greg

On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:15 PM Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org> wrote:

> Hi, Greg, and thanks for the response.
>
> I think a minor rephrasing of the requirement isn't enough, really.
> As I understand it now, after other discussion, it's not that you need
> agreement from the users, but that you should put a paragraph (or
> maybe a separate section, to highlight the point) that says that this
> is not intended for use on the open Internet nor on production
> networks, and gives examples of what it *is* intended for... perhaps
> test networks, production networks during advertised maintenance
> windows, that sort of thing.  And then you don't need to say that the
> network's users need to agree, but simply that they need to be aware
> that performance testing will be happening during period X, and that
> disruptions to normal network operation are possible.  You'd need to
> come up with text that the working group agrees with, of course, but I
> think that if you do it will address my concern as well as some of the
> others that were raised.
>
> Does that make sense?
>
> Barry
>
> On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:01 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Barry,
> > thank you for your pointed question. Please find my explanation and the
> proposed updated below under the GIM>> tag.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Greg
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 9:53 AM Barry Leiba via Datatracker <
> noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for
> >> draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss
> >>
> >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> >> introductory paragraph, however.)
> >>
> >>
> >> Please refer to
> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> >>
> >>
> >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> DISCUSS:
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> I'm sure this will be easy to either explain to me or re-phrase:
> >>
> >> Sections 4 and 6 both say something like "MUST be agreed by all users
> of the
> >> network".  What does that really mean?  How is it remotely possible to
> get
> >> agreement from all users of your network?  How is it remotely possible
> that
> >> they could understand what you're asking them to agree to?
> >
> >
> > GIM>> Yes, looking at the bigger picture, at the Internet rather than
> only at the domain where the test will be performed makes such condition
> unattainable. Would s/network/network domain where the test is planned/  so
> that it reads as:
> >
> > ... MUST be agreed by all users on the network domain where the test is
> planned ...
> >
> > make it clearer and the number of parties involved reasonable, practical?
> > As for what the could be the question users will be asked, I think that
> it should verify whether the application that has the port number assigned
> is active as the same number will be used as the destination port number in
> the STAMP test.
>

--0000000000004aea4405923c30d9
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Barry,<div>thank you for the clarification. Yes, I agre=
e that a new section can state it more clearly and give sufficient=C2=A0exa=
mples, as you&#39;ve suggested.</div><div>I&#39;ll work on it and will shar=
e when it is ready.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div><=
/div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">O=
n Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:15 PM Barry Leiba &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:barryleiba=
@computer.org">barryleiba@computer.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi, Greg, and thanks for the response=
.<br>
<br>
I think a minor rephrasing of the requirement isn&#39;t enough, really.<br>
As I understand it now, after other discussion, it&#39;s not that you need<=
br>
agreement from the users, but that you should put a paragraph (or<br>
maybe a separate section, to highlight the point) that says that this<br>
is not intended for use on the open Internet nor on production<br>
networks, and gives examples of what it *is* intended for... perhaps<br>
test networks, production networks during advertised maintenance<br>
windows, that sort of thing.=C2=A0 And then you don&#39;t need to say that =
the<br>
network&#39;s users need to agree, but simply that they need to be aware<br=
>
that performance testing will be happening during period X, and that<br>
disruptions to normal network operation are possible.=C2=A0 You&#39;d need =
to<br>
come up with text that the working group agrees with, of course, but I<br>
think that if you do it will address my concern as well as some of the<br>
others that were raised.<br>
<br>
Does that make sense?<br>
<br>
Barry<br>
<br>
On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:01 PM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirs=
ky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hi Barry,<br>
&gt; thank you for your pointed question. Please find my explanation and th=
e proposed updated below under the GIM&gt;&gt; tag.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Greg<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 9:53 AM Barry Leiba via Datatracker &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for<br>
&gt;&gt; draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to =
all<br>
&gt;&gt; email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut=
 this<br>
&gt;&gt; introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/dis=
cuss-criteria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
&gt;&gt; for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here=
:<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/=
" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra=
ft-ietf-ippm-stamp/</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; ------------------------------------------------------------------=
----<br>
&gt;&gt; DISCUSS:<br>
&gt;&gt; ------------------------------------------------------------------=
----<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I&#39;m sure this will be easy to either explain to me or re-phras=
e:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Sections 4 and 6 both say something like &quot;MUST be agreed by a=
ll users of the<br>
&gt;&gt; network&quot;.=C2=A0 What does that really mean?=C2=A0 How is it r=
emotely possible to get<br>
&gt;&gt; agreement from all users of your network?=C2=A0 How is it remotely=
 possible that<br>
&gt;&gt; they could understand what you&#39;re asking them to agree to?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; GIM&gt;&gt; Yes, looking at the bigger picture, at the Internet rather=
 than only at the domain where the test will be performed makes such condit=
ion unattainable. Would s/network/network domain where the test is planned/=
=C2=A0 so that it reads as:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ... MUST be agreed by all users on the network domain where the test i=
s planned ...<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; make it clearer and the number of parties involved reasonable, practic=
al?<br>
&gt; As for what the could be the question users will be asked, I think tha=
t it should verify whether the application that has the port number assigne=
d is active as the same number will be used as the destination port number =
in the STAMP test.<br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000004aea4405923c30d9--


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From: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 20:51:36 -0400
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To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org,  Tal Mizrahi <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com>, IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>,  IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/9c8X9My3aMrpDfoYtd_GLQpohq0>
Subject: Re: [ippm] Barry Leiba's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: (with DISCUSS)
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Thanks, Greg; I look forward to it.

b

On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 8:35 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Barry,
> thank you for the clarification. Yes, I agree that a new section can state it more clearly and give sufficient examples, as you've suggested.
> I'll work on it and will share when it is ready.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:15 PM Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi, Greg, and thanks for the response.
>>
>> I think a minor rephrasing of the requirement isn't enough, really.
>> As I understand it now, after other discussion, it's not that you need
>> agreement from the users, but that you should put a paragraph (or
>> maybe a separate section, to highlight the point) that says that this
>> is not intended for use on the open Internet nor on production
>> networks, and gives examples of what it *is* intended for... perhaps
>> test networks, production networks during advertised maintenance
>> windows, that sort of thing.  And then you don't need to say that the
>> network's users need to agree, but simply that they need to be aware
>> that performance testing will be happening during period X, and that
>> disruptions to normal network operation are possible.  You'd need to
>> come up with text that the working group agrees with, of course, but I
>> think that if you do it will address my concern as well as some of the
>> others that were raised.
>>
>> Does that make sense?
>>
>> Barry
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:01 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Barry,
>> > thank you for your pointed question. Please find my explanation and the proposed updated below under the GIM>> tag.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Greg
>> >
>> > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 9:53 AM Barry Leiba via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for
>> >> draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss
>> >>
>> >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>> >> introductory paragraph, however.)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>> >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> DISCUSS:
>> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> I'm sure this will be easy to either explain to me or re-phrase:
>> >>
>> >> Sections 4 and 6 both say something like "MUST be agreed by all users of the
>> >> network".  What does that really mean?  How is it remotely possible to get
>> >> agreement from all users of your network?  How is it remotely possible that
>> >> they could understand what you're asking them to agree to?
>> >
>> >
>> > GIM>> Yes, looking at the bigger picture, at the Internet rather than only at the domain where the test will be performed makes such condition unattainable. Would s/network/network domain where the test is planned/  so that it reads as:
>> >
>> > ... MUST be agreed by all users on the network domain where the test is planned ...
>> >
>> > make it clearer and the number of parties involved reasonable, practical?
>> > As for what the could be the question users will be asked, I think that it should verify whether the application that has the port number assigned is active as the same number will be used as the destination port number in the STAMP test.


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From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
To: "gregimirsky@gmail.com" <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: "draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org>, "iesg@ietf.org" <iesg@ietf.org>, "tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com" <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com>, "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Magnus Westerlund's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/4qkYc7LgAD5C7d1F4LJZUwaceYU>
Subject: Re: [ippm] Magnus Westerlund's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Greg,

Thanks for the reply. See inline for my comments and response.=20


On Tue, 2019-09-10 at 12:43 -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> Hi Magnus,
> thank you for the review and thoughtful, pointed questions. Please
> find my answers in-line under GIM>> tag.
>=20
> Regards,
> Greg
>=20
> On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 3:54 PM Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker <
> noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
> > Magnus Westerlund has entered the following ballot position for
> > draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss
> >=20
> > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to
> > all
> > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut
> > this
> > introductory paragraph, however.)
> >=20
> >=20
> > Please refer to=20
> > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> >=20
> >=20
> > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----
> > DISCUSS:
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----
> >=20
> > Two very much discussing discusses. However, I would really like to
> > hear the
> > answer to these concerns before clearing.
> >=20
> > 1. Section 4.3: Is the HMAC field size of 16 bytes hard coded? If
> > there ever
> > would exist a need to deploy another integrity solution, even if
> > the actual
> > algorithm used to construct the tag can be agreed by the
> > management, there
> > appear to exist a hard look in to use 16-byte tags. Have this issue
> > been
> > considered?
>=20
> GIM>> Indeed, this specification defines the use of only one
> algorithm and only 16 bytes-long HMAC field. Your question prompted
> the discussion among authors and we believe that in a future
> specification it would be feasible to extend supporting a number of
> algorithms and different lengths of HMAC field both being defined
> through extension to STAMP YANG data model.

So if I understand this (taking a discussion with Mirja about keeping
things as simple as possible) the solution is to basically is when need
arises define a new STAMP version, and then use YANG to coordinate
which version is used for the measurement. If that is a correct re-
interpretation of your response then I am fine with it.=20

> >         2. Section 6:
> >         The possible impact of the
> >    STAMP test packets on the network MUST be thoroughly analyzed,
> > and
> >    the use of STAMP for each case MUST be agreed by all users on
> > the
> >    network before starting the STAMP test session.
> >=20
> >         I assume some potential issues are know, shouldn't they
> > really be
> >         listed here in the security consideration to further
> > motivate why the
> >         analysis needs to happen.
>=20
> GIM>> This is in reference to using numbers from the User range as
> the destination port number. Would adding the reference to the case
> of using the port numbers from the User range address your concern?
> Or rather refer to Section 4, as it includes more discussion (see=20
> below)?=20

Okay, I don't really care where the discussion happens. But I don't
find any real discussion and listing of the concerns with using user or
dynamic ports for STAMP Sessions? With the formulation you use, I would
expect at least some list of potential concerns that needs to be
evaluated in the context of the particular usage of STAMP.=20

> >=20
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----
> > COMMENT:
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----
> >=20
> >         1. Section 4:
> >         Before using numbers from the User Ports range, the
> > possible impact
> >    on the network MUST be carefully studied and agreed by all users
> > of
> >    the network.
> >=20
> >         Is the above sentence missing to list an important
> > assumption? Is the
> >         assumption that by using the registred destination port an
> > operator
> >         that sees to much STAMP traffic can simply filter it out
> > and that way
> >         deal with the traffic, something which is not possible when
> > using an
> >         locally decided port? If that is the case, this assumption
> > should
> >         probably be noted.
>=20
> GIM>> That is a very good point but our primary motivation for this
> cautionary note (or strong warning) was that by allowing STAMP to use
> port numbers from the User range, ports that may be already assigned
> to protocols, creates a DDOS attack vector. As for the filtering
> STAMP traffic out, I think that even if the destination port is one
> from the Dynamic range, for a relatively long test session it can be
> filtered out.

So if that is the only? concern then write it out. I would expect that
the higher layer management protocol that creates a measurement session
to actually ensure that the STAMP endpoint actually have the port
numbers they attempt to use. Isn't that a reasonable requirement to put
on the solution?=20

My thinking with the filtering out concern was that in cases where one
runs STAMP measurement sessions, if the measurement interfer with
critical traffic an action for an on-path node that can actually
identify the STAMP traffic was to filer it out. And that may be
considered trivial when the well known port is used, but if a user or
dynamic port is used, then that requries a managment system to provide
the on-path node with the necessary information, i.e. 3/5 tuple for the
STAMP flows.=20


> >         2. Section 3 and 4, and 4.1.1: What is a STAMP Session? Is
> > that a
> >         measurment session between one specific and sender and a
> > specific
> >         reflector for a time duration?  The defenition of the
> > session do matter
> >         if one intended to enable a single sender to use multiple
> > reflectors,
> >         and if that can be a single session or always multiple
> > indepdendent
> >         ones. Would appreciate a definition what a session is. If
> > it is
> >         possible to send STAMP traffic using a multicast or
> > broadcast address
> >         should be made explicit.
>=20
> GIM>> Your interpretation is correct, STAMP session is implicitly
> defined as p2p. And that is what reflected in the STAMP YANG model.
> Would the following text make it clearer:
> NEW TEXT:
>    In this document, a measurement session also referred to as
>    STAMP session, is the session between one specific Session-Sender
> and
>    one particular Session-Reflector for a time duration.

Yes, please include that definition. Question would it be clearer to
replace ".. is the session betweeen .." with ".. is the bi-directional
packet flows between .."?=20


> >         3.  Section 4.1.1.:
> >         Timestamp is eight octets long field.  STAMP node MUST
> > support
> >       Network Time Protocol (NTP) version 4 64-bit timestamp format
> >       [RFC5905], the format used in [RFC5357].  STAMP node MAY
> > support
> >       IEEE 1588v2 Precision Time Protocol truncated 64-bit
> > timestamp
> >       format [IEEE.1588.2008], the format used in [RFC8186].
> >=20
> >         Is the clock source here something that may be relevant or
> > simply
> >         information the management functions should capture. I
> > think there is a
> >         similar issue to that of RTP faced when it comes to
> > understand what the
> >         timestamp actually represent and thus be used correctly.
> > RTP clock
> >         source specification is RFC 7273
> >         (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7273/)
>=20
> GIM>> NTP and PTP encodings have a different interpretation of the
> Fraction field of the Timestamp field. In my experience, PTP format
> is native for the data plane, while NTP is more used at the control
> plane. Original extension to TWAMP has been described in RFC 8186.

I think you missunderstood. When I talk about clock source, I am
actually referring to identifying the particular clock that the node
use to derive the included timestamp from.=20

And likely this is a moot point in this document where the clock source
information belongs in the management layer, e.g. in the YANG data
model.=20


> >         4. Section 4.1:
> >            Because STAMP supports symmetrical test packets, STAMP
> > Session-Sender
> >    packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated mode,
> > see
> >    Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see Figure
> > 4.
> >=20
> >         The above text implies some potential for UDP payload size
> > variability
> >         for the STAMP packets. However, the actual definition
> > appear to have
> >         fixed sizes. Can you please clarify if I have missed
> > something that
> >         enables the STAMP packet to have variable size?
>=20
> GIM>> I think that the text can be improved by characterizing the
> listed sizes as "base". The variable length of a test packet in STAMP
> is supported by using Extra Padding TLV defined in draft-ietf-ippm-
> stamp-option-tlv. Below is the proposed update:
> OLD TEXT:
>    Because STAMP supports symmetrical test packets, STAMP Session-
> Sender
>    packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated mode,
> see
>    Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see Figure 4.
> NEW TEXT:
>    STAMP supports symmetrical test packets.  The base STAMP Session-
>    Sender packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated
>    mode, see Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see
>    Figure 4.  The variable length of a test packet in STAMP is
> supported
>    by using Extra Padding TLV defined in
>    [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv].
>=20
> With the new reference, should I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv be
> moved to the Normative References list or may remain in the
> Informative list?

=46rom my perspective, the fact that optional TLV may occur following the
base headers appears quite important. Here comes a question of
intention form the WG. Is it intended that one can have STAMP endpoints
that do not even support receiving packets larger than the base?=20

In other words there will be two main versions already now, one that
supports some TLV and can at least handle the TLV skip forward and
ignore the content and one that will throw a fit over the TLVs? If that
is not the intention I think the fact that TLV's may occur should be
moved into this specification and have it as a normative reference.

I guess the answer is that you have backwards comaptibility reasons for
not allowing TLVs at all in some sessions, or?=20

=20
Cheers

Magnus Westerlund=20


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287
Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------



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From: Henrik Nydell <hnydell@accedian.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 10:30:06 +0200
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Magnus Westerlund's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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See below for PTP/NTP comment

On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 9:53 AM Magnus Westerlund <
magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Hi Greg,
>
> Thanks for the reply. See inline for my comments and response.
>
>
> On Tue, 2019-09-10 at 12:43 -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> > Hi Magnus,
> > thank you for the review and thoughtful, pointed questions. Please
> > find my answers in-line under GIM>> tag.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Greg
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 3:54 PM Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker <
> > noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
> > > Magnus Westerlund has entered the following ballot position for
> > > draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss
> > >
> > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to
> > > all
> > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut
> > > this
> > > introductory paragraph, however.)
> > >
> > >
> > > Please refer to
> > > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> > >
> > >
> > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > -----
> > > DISCUSS:
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > -----
> > >
> > > Two very much discussing discusses. However, I would really like to
> > > hear the
> > > answer to these concerns before clearing.
> > >
> > > 1. Section 4.3: Is the HMAC field size of 16 bytes hard coded? If
> > > there ever
> > > would exist a need to deploy another integrity solution, even if
> > > the actual
> > > algorithm used to construct the tag can be agreed by the
> > > management, there
> > > appear to exist a hard look in to use 16-byte tags. Have this issue
> > > been
> > > considered?
> >
> > GIM>> Indeed, this specification defines the use of only one
> > algorithm and only 16 bytes-long HMAC field. Your question prompted
> > the discussion among authors and we believe that in a future
> > specification it would be feasible to extend supporting a number of
> > algorithms and different lengths of HMAC field both being defined
> > through extension to STAMP YANG data model.
>
> So if I understand this (taking a discussion with Mirja about keeping
> things as simple as possible) the solution is to basically is when need
> arises define a new STAMP version, and then use YANG to coordinate
> which version is used for the measurement. If that is a correct re-
> interpretation of your response then I am fine with it.
>
> > >         2. Section 6:
> > >         The possible impact of the
> > >    STAMP test packets on the network MUST be thoroughly analyzed,
> > > and
> > >    the use of STAMP for each case MUST be agreed by all users on
> > > the
> > >    network before starting the STAMP test session.
> > >
> > >         I assume some potential issues are know, shouldn't they
> > > really be
> > >         listed here in the security consideration to further
> > > motivate why the
> > >         analysis needs to happen.
> >
> > GIM>> This is in reference to using numbers from the User range as
> > the destination port number. Would adding the reference to the case
> > of using the port numbers from the User range address your concern?
> > Or rather refer to Section 4, as it includes more discussion (see
> > below)?
>
> Okay, I don't really care where the discussion happens. But I don't
> find any real discussion and listing of the concerns with using user or
> dynamic ports for STAMP Sessions? With the formulation you use, I would
> expect at least some list of potential concerns that needs to be
> evaluated in the context of the particular usage of STAMP.
>
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > -----
> > > COMMENT:
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > -----
> > >
> > >         1. Section 4:
> > >         Before using numbers from the User Ports range, the
> > > possible impact
> > >    on the network MUST be carefully studied and agreed by all users
> > > of
> > >    the network.
> > >
> > >         Is the above sentence missing to list an important
> > > assumption? Is the
> > >         assumption that by using the registred destination port an
> > > operator
> > >         that sees to much STAMP traffic can simply filter it out
> > > and that way
> > >         deal with the traffic, something which is not possible when
> > > using an
> > >         locally decided port? If that is the case, this assumption
> > > should
> > >         probably be noted.
> >
> > GIM>> That is a very good point but our primary motivation for this
> > cautionary note (or strong warning) was that by allowing STAMP to use
> > port numbers from the User range, ports that may be already assigned
> > to protocols, creates a DDOS attack vector. As for the filtering
> > STAMP traffic out, I think that even if the destination port is one
> > from the Dynamic range, for a relatively long test session it can be
> > filtered out.
>
> So if that is the only? concern then write it out. I would expect that
> the higher layer management protocol that creates a measurement session
> to actually ensure that the STAMP endpoint actually have the port
> numbers they attempt to use. Isn't that a reasonable requirement to put
> on the solution?
>
> My thinking with the filtering out concern was that in cases where one
> runs STAMP measurement sessions, if the measurement interfer with
> critical traffic an action for an on-path node that can actually
> identify the STAMP traffic was to filer it out. And that may be
> considered trivial when the well known port is used, but if a user or
> dynamic port is used, then that requries a managment system to provide
> the on-path node with the necessary information, i.e. 3/5 tuple for the
> STAMP flows.
>
>
> > >         2. Section 3 and 4, and 4.1.1: What is a STAMP Session? Is
> > > that a
> > >         measurment session between one specific and sender and a
> > > specific
> > >         reflector for a time duration?  The defenition of the
> > > session do matter
> > >         if one intended to enable a single sender to use multiple
> > > reflectors,
> > >         and if that can be a single session or always multiple
> > > indepdendent
> > >         ones. Would appreciate a definition what a session is. If
> > > it is
> > >         possible to send STAMP traffic using a multicast or
> > > broadcast address
> > >         should be made explicit.
> >
> > GIM>> Your interpretation is correct, STAMP session is implicitly
> > defined as p2p. And that is what reflected in the STAMP YANG model.
> > Would the following text make it clearer:
> > NEW TEXT:
> >    In this document, a measurement session also referred to as
> >    STAMP session, is the session between one specific Session-Sender
> > and
> >    one particular Session-Reflector for a time duration.
>
> Yes, please include that definition. Question would it be clearer to
> replace ".. is the session betweeen .." with ".. is the bi-directional
> packet flows between .."?
>
>
> > >         3.  Section 4.1.1.:
> > >         Timestamp is eight octets long field.  STAMP node MUST
> > > support
> > >       Network Time Protocol (NTP) version 4 64-bit timestamp format
> > >       [RFC5905], the format used in [RFC5357].  STAMP node MAY
> > > support
> > >       IEEE 1588v2 Precision Time Protocol truncated 64-bit
> > > timestamp
> > >       format [IEEE.1588.2008], the format used in [RFC8186].
> > >
> > >         Is the clock source here something that may be relevant or
> > > simply
> > >         information the management functions should capture. I
> > > think there is a
> > >         similar issue to that of RTP faced when it comes to
> > > understand what the
> > >         timestamp actually represent and thus be used correctly.
> > > RTP clock
> > >         source specification is RFC 7273
> > >         (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7273/)
> >
> > GIM>> NTP and PTP encodings have a different interpretation of the
> > Fraction field of the Timestamp field. In my experience, PTP format
> > is native for the data plane, while NTP is more used at the control
> > plane. Original extension to TWAMP has been described in RFC 8186.
>
> I think you missunderstood. When I talk about clock source, I am
> actually referring to identifying the particular clock that the node
> use to derive the included timestamp from.
>
> And likely this is a moot point in this document where the clock source
> information belongs in the management layer, e.g. in the YANG data
> model.
>

In section 4.1.1 of draft-ietf-ippm-stamp there is a definition of the
Z-bit in the error correction field that denotes if the clock source is NTP
or PTP


>
>
> > >         4. Section 4.1:
> > >            Because STAMP supports symmetrical test packets, STAMP
> > > Session-Sender
> > >    packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated mode,
> > > see
> > >    Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see Figure
> > > 4.
> > >
> > >         The above text implies some potential for UDP payload size
> > > variability
> > >         for the STAMP packets. However, the actual definition
> > > appear to have
> > >         fixed sizes. Can you please clarify if I have missed
> > > something that
> > >         enables the STAMP packet to have variable size?
> >
> > GIM>> I think that the text can be improved by characterizing the
> > listed sizes as "base". The variable length of a test packet in STAMP
> > is supported by using Extra Padding TLV defined in draft-ietf-ippm-
> > stamp-option-tlv. Below is the proposed update:
> > OLD TEXT:
> >    Because STAMP supports symmetrical test packets, STAMP Session-
> > Sender
> >    packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated mode,
> > see
> >    Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see Figure 4.
> > NEW TEXT:
> >    STAMP supports symmetrical test packets.  The base STAMP Session-
> >    Sender packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated
> >    mode, see Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see
> >    Figure 4.  The variable length of a test packet in STAMP is
> > supported
> >    by using Extra Padding TLV defined in
> >    [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv].
> >
> > With the new reference, should I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv be
> > moved to the Normative References list or may remain in the
> > Informative list?
>
> From my perspective, the fact that optional TLV may occur following the
> base headers appears quite important. Here comes a question of
> intention form the WG. Is it intended that one can have STAMP endpoints
> that do not even support receiving packets larger than the base?
>
> In other words there will be two main versions already now, one that
> supports some TLV and can at least handle the TLV skip forward and
> ignore the content and one that will throw a fit over the TLVs? If that
> is not the intention I think the fact that TLV's may occur should be
> moved into this specification and have it as a normative reference.
>
> I guess the answer is that you have backwards comaptibility reasons for
> not allowing TLVs at all in some sessions, or?
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Magnus Westerlund
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287
> Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079
> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>See below for PTP/NTP comment</div><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at =
9:53 AM Magnus Westerlund &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.=
com">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Greg,<br>
<br>
Thanks for the reply. See inline for my comments and response. <br>
<br>
<br>
On Tue, 2019-09-10 at 12:43 -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi Magnus,<br>
&gt; thank you for the review and thoughtful, pointed questions. Please<br>
&gt; find my answers in-line under GIM&gt;&gt; tag.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Greg<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 3:54 PM Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker &lt;<=
br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf.org=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; Magnus Westerlund has entered the following ballot position for<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to=
<br>
&gt; &gt; all<br>
&gt; &gt; email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cu=
t<br>
&gt; &gt; this<br>
&gt; &gt; introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Please refer to <br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.h=
tml" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/stateme=
nt/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
&gt; &gt; for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br=
>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found her=
e:<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp=
/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr=
aft-ietf-ippm-stamp/</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; -----------------------------------------------------------------=
<br>
&gt; &gt; -----<br>
&gt; &gt; DISCUSS:<br>
&gt; &gt; -----------------------------------------------------------------=
<br>
&gt; &gt; -----<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Two very much discussing discusses. However, I would really like =
to<br>
&gt; &gt; hear the<br>
&gt; &gt; answer to these concerns before clearing.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; 1. Section 4.3: Is the HMAC field size of 16 bytes hard coded? If=
<br>
&gt; &gt; there ever<br>
&gt; &gt; would exist a need to deploy another integrity solution, even if<=
br>
&gt; &gt; the actual<br>
&gt; &gt; algorithm used to construct the tag can be agreed by the<br>
&gt; &gt; management, there<br>
&gt; &gt; appear to exist a hard look in to use 16-byte tags. Have this iss=
ue<br>
&gt; &gt; been<br>
&gt; &gt; considered?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GIM&gt;&gt; Indeed, this specification defines the use of only one<br>
&gt; algorithm and only 16 bytes-long HMAC field. Your question prompted<br=
>
&gt; the discussion among authors and we believe that in a future<br>
&gt; specification it would be feasible to extend supporting a number of<br=
>
&gt; algorithms and different lengths of HMAC field both being defined<br>
&gt; through extension to STAMP YANG data model.<br>
<br>
So if I understand this (taking a discussion with Mirja about keeping<br>
things as simple as possible) the solution is to basically is when need<br>
arises define a new STAMP version, and then use YANG to coordinate<br>
which version is used for the measurement. If that is a correct re-<br>
interpretation of your response then I am fine with it. <br>
<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02. Section 6:<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The possible impact of the<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 STAMP test packets on the network MUST be thoroughly=
 analyzed,<br>
&gt; &gt; and<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the use of STAMP for each case MUST be agreed by all=
 users on<br>
&gt; &gt; the<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 network before starting the STAMP test session.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I assume some potential issues a=
re know, shouldn&#39;t they<br>
&gt; &gt; really be<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0listed here in the security cons=
ideration to further<br>
&gt; &gt; motivate why the<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0analysis needs to happen.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GIM&gt;&gt; This is in reference to using numbers from the User range =
as<br>
&gt; the destination port number. Would adding the reference to the case<br=
>
&gt; of using the port numbers from the User range address your concern?<br=
>
&gt; Or rather refer to Section 4, as it includes more discussion (see <br>
&gt; below)? <br>
<br>
Okay, I don&#39;t really care where the discussion happens. But I don&#39;t=
<br>
find any real discussion and listing of the concerns with using user or<br>
dynamic ports for STAMP Sessions? With the formulation you use, I would<br>
expect at least some list of potential concerns that needs to be<br>
evaluated in the context of the particular usage of STAMP. <br>
<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; -----------------------------------------------------------------=
<br>
&gt; &gt; -----<br>
&gt; &gt; COMMENT:<br>
&gt; &gt; -----------------------------------------------------------------=
<br>
&gt; &gt; -----<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01. Section 4:<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Before using numbers from the Us=
er Ports range, the<br>
&gt; &gt; possible impact<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 on the network MUST be carefully studied and agreed =
by all users<br>
&gt; &gt; of<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the network.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Is the above sentence missing to=
 list an important<br>
&gt; &gt; assumption? Is the<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0assumption that by using the reg=
istred destination port an<br>
&gt; &gt; operator<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that sees to much STAMP traffic =
can simply filter it out<br>
&gt; &gt; and that way<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0deal with the traffic, something=
 which is not possible when<br>
&gt; &gt; using an<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0locally decided port? If that is=
 the case, this assumption<br>
&gt; &gt; should<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0probably be noted.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GIM&gt;&gt; That is a very good point but our primary motivation for t=
his<br>
&gt; cautionary note (or strong warning) was that by allowing STAMP to use<=
br>
&gt; port numbers from the User range, ports that may be already assigned<b=
r>
&gt; to protocols, creates a DDOS attack vector. As for the filtering<br>
&gt; STAMP traffic out, I think that even if the destination port is one<br=
>
&gt; from the Dynamic range, for a relatively long test session it can be<b=
r>
&gt; filtered out.<br>
<br>
So if that is the only? concern then write it out. I would expect that<br>
the higher layer management protocol that creates a measurement session<br>
to actually ensure that the STAMP endpoint actually have the port<br>
numbers they attempt to use. Isn&#39;t that a reasonable requirement to put=
<br>
on the solution? <br>
<br>
My thinking with the filtering out concern was that in cases where one<br>
runs STAMP measurement sessions, if the measurement interfer with<br>
critical traffic an action for an on-path node that can actually<br>
identify the STAMP traffic was to filer it out. And that may be<br>
considered trivial when the well known port is used, but if a user or<br>
dynamic port is used, then that requries a managment system to provide<br>
the on-path node with the necessary information, i.e. 3/5 tuple for the<br>
STAMP flows. <br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02. Section 3 and 4, and 4.1.1: W=
hat is a STAMP Session? Is<br>
&gt; &gt; that a<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0measurment session between one s=
pecific and sender and a<br>
&gt; &gt; specific<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reflector for a time duration?=
=C2=A0 The defenition of the<br>
&gt; &gt; session do matter<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0if one intended to enable a sing=
le sender to use multiple<br>
&gt; &gt; reflectors,<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and if that can be a single sess=
ion or always multiple<br>
&gt; &gt; indepdendent<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ones. Would appreciate a definit=
ion what a session is. If<br>
&gt; &gt; it is<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0possible to send STAMP traffic u=
sing a multicast or<br>
&gt; &gt; broadcast address<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should be made explicit.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GIM&gt;&gt; Your interpretation is correct, STAMP session is implicitl=
y<br>
&gt; defined as p2p. And that is what reflected in the STAMP YANG model.<br=
>
&gt; Would the following text make it clearer:<br>
&gt; NEW TEXT:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In this document, a measurement session also referred to =
as<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 STAMP session, is the session between one specific Sessio=
n-Sender<br>
&gt; and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 one particular Session-Reflector for a time duration.<br>
<br>
Yes, please include that definition. Question would it be clearer to<br>
replace &quot;.. is the session betweeen ..&quot; with &quot;.. is the bi-d=
irectional<br>
packet flows between ..&quot;? <br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03.=C2=A0 Section <a href=3D"http=
://4.1.1." rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">4.1.1.</a>:<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Timestamp is eight octets long f=
ield.=C2=A0 STAMP node MUST<br>
&gt; &gt; support<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Network Time Protocol (NTP) version 4 6=
4-bit timestamp format<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC5905], the format used in [RFC5357]=
.=C2=A0 STAMP node MAY<br>
&gt; &gt; support<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IEEE 1588v2 Precision Time Protocol tru=
ncated 64-bit<br>
&gt; &gt; timestamp<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0format [IEEE.1588.2008], the format use=
d in [RFC8186].<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Is the clock source here somethi=
ng that may be relevant or<br>
&gt; &gt; simply<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0information the management funct=
ions should capture. I<br>
&gt; &gt; think there is a<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0similar issue to that of RTP fac=
ed when it comes to<br>
&gt; &gt; understand what the<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0timestamp actually represent and=
 thus be used correctly.<br>
&gt; &gt; RTP clock<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0source specification is RFC 7273=
<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(<a href=3D"https://datatracker.=
ietf.org/doc/rfc7273/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatra=
cker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7273/</a>)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GIM&gt;&gt; NTP and PTP encodings have a different interpretation of t=
he<br>
&gt; Fraction field of the Timestamp field. In my experience, PTP format<br=
>
&gt; is native for the data plane, while NTP is more used at the control<br=
>
&gt; plane. Original extension to TWAMP has been described in RFC 8186.<br>
<br>
I think you missunderstood. When I talk about clock source, I am<br>
actually referring to identifying the particular clock that the node<br>
use to derive the included timestamp from. <br>
<br>
And likely this is a moot point in this document where the clock source<br>
information belongs in the management layer, e.g. in the YANG data<br>
model. <br></blockquote><div>=C2=A0</div><div>In section 4.1.1 of=C2=A0draf=
t-ietf-ippm-stamp there is a definition of the Z-bit in the error correctio=
n field that denotes if the clock source is NTP or PTP</div><div>=C2=A0</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04. Section 4.1:<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Because STAMP supports s=
ymmetrical test packets, STAMP<br>
&gt; &gt; Session-Sender<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenti=
cated mode,<br>
&gt; &gt; see<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, =
see Figure<br>
&gt; &gt; 4.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The above text implies some pote=
ntial for UDP payload size<br>
&gt; &gt; variability<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for the STAMP packets. However, =
the actual definition<br>
&gt; &gt; appear to have<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0fixed sizes. Can you please clar=
ify if I have missed<br>
&gt; &gt; something that<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0enables the STAMP packet to have=
 variable size?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GIM&gt;&gt; I think that the text can be improved by characterizing th=
e<br>
&gt; listed sizes as &quot;base&quot;. The variable length of a test packet=
 in STAMP<br>
&gt; is supported by using Extra Padding TLV defined in draft-ietf-ippm-<br=
>
&gt; stamp-option-tlv. Below is the proposed update:<br>
&gt; OLD TEXT:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Because STAMP supports symmetrical test packets, STAMP Se=
ssion-<br>
&gt; Sender<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated=
 mode,<br>
&gt; see<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see F=
igure 4.<br>
&gt; NEW TEXT:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 STAMP supports symmetrical test packets.=C2=A0 The base S=
TAMP Session-<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sender packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthen=
ticated<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mode, see Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated m=
ode, see<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Figure 4.=C2=A0 The variable length of a test packet in S=
TAMP is<br>
&gt; supported<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 by using Extra Padding TLV defined in<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv].<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; With the new reference, should I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv be<br>
&gt; moved to the Normative References list or may remain in the<br>
&gt; Informative list?<br>
<br>
>From my perspective, the fact that optional TLV may occur following the<br>
base headers appears quite important. Here comes a question of<br>
intention form the WG. Is it intended that one can have STAMP endpoints<br>
that do not even support receiving packets larger than the base? <br>
<br>
In other words there will be two main versions already now, one that<br>
supports some TLV and can at least handle the TLV skip forward and<br>
ignore the content and one that will throw a fit over the TLVs? If that<br>
is not the intention I think the fact that TLV&#39;s may occur should be<br=
>
moved into this specification and have it as a normative reference.<br>
<br>
I guess the answer is that you have backwards comaptibility reasons for<br>
not allowing TLVs at all in some sessions, or? <br>
<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
Magnus Westerlund <br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Network Architecture &amp; Protocols, Ericsson Research<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Ericsson AB=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =
Phone=C2=A0 +46 10 7148287<br>
Torshamnsgatan 23=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Mobile +46 73 0=
949079<br>
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: <a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@e=
ricsson.com" target=3D"_blank">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a><br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
<br>
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From: Henrik Nydell <hnydell@accedian.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 10:42:23 +0200
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To: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
Cc: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org,  Tal Mizrahi <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com>, IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>,  IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Barry Leiba's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: (with DISCUSS)
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The STAMP test (As for RFC5357 TWAMP and for example Cisco IP-SLA , Huawei
U.2520, Juniper RPM and other in-line test functions) is indeed intended to
be used on production networks to enable the operator to assess service
level agreements based on delay, jitter and loss. So the rephrasing needs
to be done keeping that in mind, and I see no implications on using it over
the Internet either. The agreement on UDP ports to use needs to be done
between the session-sender and the session-reflector only. Intermediate
nodes or other users of the network need not be aware of the STAMP test or
the ports it uses. It is in fact desirable that the STAMP packets are not
distinguishable from other traffic on the network, but are treated just
like any user traffic in the class of service they are transmitted.

Best
Henrik

On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 2:15 AM Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org> wrote=
:

> Hi, Greg, and thanks for the response.
>
> I think a minor rephrasing of the requirement isn't enough, really.
> As I understand it now, after other discussion, it's not that you need
> agreement from the users, but that you should put a paragraph (or
> maybe a separate section, to highlight the point) that says that this
> is not intended for use on the open Internet nor on production
> networks, and gives examples of what it *is* intended for... perhaps
> test networks, production networks during advertised maintenance
> windows, that sort of thing.  And then you don't need to say that the
> network's users need to agree, but simply that they need to be aware
> that performance testing will be happening during period X, and that
> disruptions to normal network operation are possible.  You'd need to
> come up with text that the working group agrees with, of course, but I
> think that if you do it will address my concern as well as some of the
> others that were raised.
>
> Does that make sense?
>
> Barry
>
> On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:01 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote=
:
> >
> > Hi Barry,
> > thank you for your pointed question. Please find my explanation and the
> proposed updated below under the GIM>> tag.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Greg
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 9:53 AM Barry Leiba via Datatracker <
> noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for
> >> draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss
> >>
> >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut thi=
s
> >> introductory paragraph, however.)
> >>
> >>
> >> Please refer to
> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> >>
> >>
> >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> DISCUSS:
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> I'm sure this will be easy to either explain to me or re-phrase:
> >>
> >> Sections 4 and 6 both say something like "MUST be agreed by all users
> of the
> >> network".  What does that really mean?  How is it remotely possible to
> get
> >> agreement from all users of your network?  How is it remotely possible
> that
> >> they could understand what you're asking them to agree to?
> >
> >
> > GIM>> Yes, looking at the bigger picture, at the Internet rather than
> only at the domain where the test will be performed makes such condition
> unattainable. Would s/network/network domain where the test is planned/  =
so
> that it reads as:
> >
> > ... MUST be agreed by all users on the network domain where the test is
> planned ...
> >
> > make it clearer and the number of parties involved reasonable, practica=
l?
> > As for what the could be the question users will be asked, I think that
> it should verify whether the application that has the port number assigne=
d
> is active as the same number will be used as the destination port number =
in
> the STAMP test.
>


--=20

*Henrik Nydell*
*Sr Product Manager*
1.866.685.8181
hnydell@accedian.com
<http://accedian.com>
<https://www.facebook.com/accedian/>  <https://twitter.com/Accedian>
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/accedian-networks?originalSubdomain=3Dca>
<http://www.accedian.com>
*accedian.com <http://accedian.com>*

--=20


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<div dir=3D"ltr">The STAMP test (As for RFC5357 TWAMP and for example Cisco=
 IP-SLA , Huawei U.2520, Juniper RPM and other in-line test functions) is i=
ndeed intended to be used on production networks to enable the operator to =
assess service level agreements based on delay, jitter and loss. So the rep=
hrasing needs to be done keeping that in mind, and I see no implications on=
 using it over the Internet either. The agreement on UDP ports to use needs=
 to be done between the session-sender and the session-reflector only. Inte=
rmediate nodes or other users of the network need not be aware of the STAMP=
 test or the ports it uses. It is in fact desirable that the STAMP packets =
are not distinguishable=C2=A0from other traffic on the network, but are tre=
ated just like any user traffic in the class of service they are transmitte=
d.<div><br></div><div>Best</div><div>Henrik</div></div><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 2:=
15 AM Barry Leiba &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:barryleiba@computer.org">barryleiba=
@computer.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddi=
ng-left:1ex">Hi, Greg, and thanks for the response.<br>
<br>
I think a minor rephrasing of the requirement isn&#39;t enough, really.<br>
As I understand it now, after other discussion, it&#39;s not that you need<=
br>
agreement from the users, but that you should put a paragraph (or<br>
maybe a separate section, to highlight the point) that says that this<br>
is not intended for use on the open Internet nor on production<br>
networks, and gives examples of what it *is* intended for... perhaps<br>
test networks, production networks during advertised maintenance<br>
windows, that sort of thing.=C2=A0 And then you don&#39;t need to say that =
the<br>
network&#39;s users need to agree, but simply that they need to be aware<br=
>
that performance testing will be happening during period X, and that<br>
disruptions to normal network operation are possible.=C2=A0 You&#39;d need =
to<br>
come up with text that the working group agrees with, of course, but I<br>
think that if you do it will address my concern as well as some of the<br>
others that were raised.<br>
<br>
Does that make sense?<br>
<br>
Barry<br>
<br>
On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:01 PM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirs=
ky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hi Barry,<br>
&gt; thank you for your pointed question. Please find my explanation and th=
e proposed updated below under the GIM&gt;&gt; tag.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Greg<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 9:53 AM Barry Leiba via Datatracker &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for<br>
&gt;&gt; draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to =
all<br>
&gt;&gt; email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut=
 this<br>
&gt;&gt; introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/dis=
cuss-criteria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.o=
rg/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
&gt;&gt; for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here=
:<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/=
" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra=
ft-ietf-ippm-stamp/</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; ------------------------------------------------------------------=
----<br>
&gt;&gt; DISCUSS:<br>
&gt;&gt; ------------------------------------------------------------------=
----<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I&#39;m sure this will be easy to either explain to me or re-phras=
e:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Sections 4 and 6 both say something like &quot;MUST be agreed by a=
ll users of the<br>
&gt;&gt; network&quot;.=C2=A0 What does that really mean?=C2=A0 How is it r=
emotely possible to get<br>
&gt;&gt; agreement from all users of your network?=C2=A0 How is it remotely=
 possible that<br>
&gt;&gt; they could understand what you&#39;re asking them to agree to?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; GIM&gt;&gt; Yes, looking at the bigger picture, at the Internet rather=
 than only at the domain where the test will be performed makes such condit=
ion unattainable. Would s/network/network domain where the test is planned/=
=C2=A0 so that it reads as:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ... MUST be agreed by all users on the network domain where the test i=
s planned ...<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; make it clearer and the number of parties involved reasonable, practic=
al?<br>
&gt; As for what the could be the question users will be asked, I think tha=
t it should verify whether the application that has the port number assigne=
d is active as the same number will be used as the destination port number =
in the STAMP test.<br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><br>
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(26,8,50)"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt=
"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><strong>Henrik Nydell</strong></span></spa=
n></span><br>
<span style=3D"font-size:10pt"><strong><span style=3D"color:rgb(245,157,21)=
">Sr Product Manager</span></strong><br>
<span style=3D"color:rgb(26,8,50)">1.866.685.8181<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:hnydell@accedian.com" target=3D"_blank">hnydell@accedian.=
com</a></span></span><br>
<a href=3D"http://accedian.com" target=3D"_blank"><img alt=3D"" border=3D"0=
" height=3D"50" src=3D"https://i.xink.io/Images/Get/N63832/a65.png" width=
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<a href=3D"https://www.facebook.com/accedian/" target=3D"_blank"><img alt=
=3D"" border=3D"0" height=3D"25" src=3D"https://i.xink.io/Images/Get/N63832=
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xink.io/Images/Get/N63832/t99.png" width=3D"25"></a>=C2=A0<a href=3D"https:=
//www.linkedin.com/company/accedian-networks?originalSubdomain=3Dca" target=
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<a href=3D"http://www.accedian.com" target=3D"_blank"><img alt=3D"" border=
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<span style=3D"color:rgb(245,157,21)"><strong><span style=3D"font-size:10pt=
"><a href=3D"http://accedian.com" target=3D"_blank">accedian.com</a></span>=
</strong></span></span></span></div>

<br>
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From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
To: "hnydell@accedian.com" <hnydell@accedian.com>
CC: "gregimirsky@gmail.com" <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, "draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org>, "iesg@ietf.org" <iesg@ietf.org>, "tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com" <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com>, "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Magnus Westerlund's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Magnus Westerlund's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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--=-JPsxgsTL4Vdux5dYuFip
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Hi Henrik,

On Wed, 2019-09-11 at 10:30 +0200, Henrik Nydell wrote:
> See below for PTP/NTP comment
>=20
> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 9:53 AM Magnus Westerlund <
> magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >=20
> > On Tue, 2019-09-10 at 12:43 -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> >=20
> > > >         3.  Section 4.1.1.:
> > > >         Timestamp is eight octets long field.  STAMP node MUST
> > > > support
> > > >       Network Time Protocol (NTP) version 4 64-bit timestamp
> > format
> > > >       [RFC5905], the format used in [RFC5357].  STAMP node MAY
> > > > support
> > > >       IEEE 1588v2 Precision Time Protocol truncated 64-bit
> > > > timestamp
> > > >       format [IEEE.1588.2008], the format used in [RFC8186].
> > > >=20
> > > >         Is the clock source here something that may be relevant
> > or
> > > > simply
> > > >         information the management functions should capture. I
> > > > think there is a
> > > >         similar issue to that of RTP faced when it comes to
> > > > understand what the
> > > >         timestamp actually represent and thus be used
> > correctly.
> > > > RTP clock
> > > >         source specification is RFC 7273
> > > >         (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7273/)
> > >=20
> > > GIM>> NTP and PTP encodings have a different interpretation of
> > the
> > > Fraction field of the Timestamp field. In my experience, PTP
> > format
> > > is native for the data plane, while NTP is more used at the
> > control
> > > plane. Original extension to TWAMP has been described in RFC
> > 8186.
> >=20
> > I think you missunderstood. When I talk about clock source, I am
> > actually referring to identifying the particular clock that the
> > node
> > use to derive the included timestamp from.=20
> >=20
> > And likely this is a moot point in this document where the clock
> > source
> > information belongs in the management layer, e.g. in the YANG data
> > model.=20
>=20
> =20
> In section 4.1.1 of draft-ietf-ippm-stamp there is a definition of
> the Z-bit in the error correction field that denotes if the clock
> source is NTP or PTP
> =20

Yes, to be clear I have no issue with if the format is NTP or PTP. That
was not my comment. It was a comment if the protocol should identify
which particular NTP or PTP server the node is using. For example for a
node on my network having NTP based clock it matters if that NTP server
is sth1.ntp.se which is a stratum 1 server distributing certified
swedish time, or if I use europe.pool.ntp.org where I would use any NTP
server part of the pool indicating that they are in europe.=20


However, I am convinced that information is of interest the information
should be in the management layer.=20


Cheers

Magnus Westerlund=20


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287
Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
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From nobody Wed Sep 11 02:47:19 2019
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Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-07.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Data Fields for In-situ OAM
        Authors         : Frank Brockners
                          Shwetha Bhandari
                          Carlos Pignataro
                          Hannes Gredler
                          John Leddy
                          Stephen Youell
                          Tal Mizrahi
                          David Mozes
                          Petr Lapukhov
                          Remy Chang
                          Daniel Bernier
                          John Lemon
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-07.txt
	Pages           : 41
	Date            : 2019-09-11

Abstract:
   In-situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (IOAM) records
   operational and telemetry information in the packet while the packet
   traverses a path between two points in the network.  This document
   discusses the data fields and associated data types for in-situ OAM.
   In-situ OAM data fields can be embedded into a variety of transports
   such as NSH, Segment Routing, Geneve, native IPv6 (via extension
   header), or IPv4.  In-situ OAM can be used to complement OAM
   mechanisms based on e.g.  ICMP or other types of probe packets.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-07
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-07

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-07


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>
To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>, "draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>, Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06
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Thanks again for the review and comments. The most recent version - which i=
ncludes the below mentioned pull request - is now available as -07:
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-07.txt

Can we consider this one ready for WGLC?

Thanks, Frank


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Brockners (fbrockne)
> Sent: Mittwoch, 4. September 2019 07:37
> To: 'Haoyu Song' <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>; 'draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-
> data@ietf.org' <draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org>; 'IETF IPPM WG'
> <ippm@ietf.org>; 'Tom Herbert' <tom@herbertland.com>
> Subject: RE: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06
>=20
>=20
> Thanks again detailed comments (special thanks to Tom and Haoyu).
> There is a new pull request available which reflect these comments:
> https://github.com/inband-oam/ietf/pull/133. Please review.
> I'm hoping to get it merged by the end of this week.
>=20
> Thanks, Frank
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Frank Brockners (fbrockne)
> > Sent: Dienstag, 13. August 2019 09:08
> > To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>; draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-
> > data@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
> > Subject: RE: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06
> >
> > Hi Haoyu,
> >
> > Thanks for your comments. They key point you raise is consistent
> > nomenclature
> > - which we definitively need to address in the next revision. Not
> > uncommon for a document with many different authors - but now is
> > indeed the time to tidy things up and get the house in order.
> >
> > Thanks again, Frank
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>
> > > Sent: Dienstag, 13. August 2019 02:00
> > > To: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
> > > Subject: [ippm] Review on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-06
> > >
> > > Dear IOAM data authors and IPPM WG,
> > >
> > > To sync up with the latest, I reread the draft and gave it a full rev=
iew.
> > > Some questions, comments, and suggestions are marked in the document.
> > > Hopefully this can help to tighten the draft.
> > > Thanks!
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Haoyu
> > >


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From: Henrik Nydell <hnydell@accedian.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 13:00:50 +0200
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To: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
Cc: "gregimirsky@gmail.com" <gregimirsky@gmail.com>,  "draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org>, "iesg@ietf.org" <iesg@ietf.org>,  "tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com" <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com>, "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>,  "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Magnus Westerlund's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Understood, yes I believe that is above the STAMP itself. It can be added
as an optional TLV to STAMP if it is desirable to fetch this type of
information from the reflector endpoints.

On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 11:36 AM Magnus Westerlund <
magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Hi Henrik,
>
> On Wed, 2019-09-11 at 10:30 +0200, Henrik Nydell wrote:
> > See below for PTP/NTP comment
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 9:53 AM Magnus Westerlund <
> > magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Tue, 2019-09-10 at 12:43 -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> > >
> > > > >         3.  Section 4.1.1.:
> > > > >         Timestamp is eight octets long field.  STAMP node MUST
> > > > > support
> > > > >       Network Time Protocol (NTP) version 4 64-bit timestamp
> > > format
> > > > >       [RFC5905], the format used in [RFC5357].  STAMP node MAY
> > > > > support
> > > > >       IEEE 1588v2 Precision Time Protocol truncated 64-bit
> > > > > timestamp
> > > > >       format [IEEE.1588.2008], the format used in [RFC8186].
> > > > >
> > > > >         Is the clock source here something that may be relevant
> > > or
> > > > > simply
> > > > >         information the management functions should capture. I
> > > > > think there is a
> > > > >         similar issue to that of RTP faced when it comes to
> > > > > understand what the
> > > > >         timestamp actually represent and thus be used
> > > correctly.
> > > > > RTP clock
> > > > >         source specification is RFC 7273
> > > > >         (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7273/)
> > > >
> > > > GIM>> NTP and PTP encodings have a different interpretation of
> > > the
> > > > Fraction field of the Timestamp field. In my experience, PTP
> > > format
> > > > is native for the data plane, while NTP is more used at the
> > > control
> > > > plane. Original extension to TWAMP has been described in RFC
> > > 8186.
> > >
> > > I think you missunderstood. When I talk about clock source, I am
> > > actually referring to identifying the particular clock that the
> > > node
> > > use to derive the included timestamp from.
> > >
> > > And likely this is a moot point in this document where the clock
> > > source
> > > information belongs in the management layer, e.g. in the YANG data
> > > model.
> >
> >
> > In section 4.1.1 of draft-ietf-ippm-stamp there is a definition of
> > the Z-bit in the error correction field that denotes if the clock
> > source is NTP or PTP
> >
>
> Yes, to be clear I have no issue with if the format is NTP or PTP. That
> was not my comment. It was a comment if the protocol should identify
> which particular NTP or PTP server the node is using. For example for a
> node on my network having NTP based clock it matters if that NTP server
> is sth1.ntp.se which is a stratum 1 server distributing certified
> swedish time, or if I use europe.pool.ntp.org where I would use any NTP
> server part of the pool indicating that they are in europe.
>
>
> However, I am convinced that information is of interest the information
> should be in the management layer.
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Magnus Westerlund
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287
> Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079
> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Understood, yes I believe that is above the STAMP itself. =
It can be added as an optional TLV to STAMP if it is desirable to fetch thi=
s type of information from the reflector endpoints.</div><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at =
11:36 AM Magnus Westerlund &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson=
.com">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Henrik,<br>
<br>
On Wed, 2019-09-11 at 10:30 +0200, Henrik Nydell wrote:<br>
&gt; See below for PTP/NTP comment<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 9:53 AM Magnus Westerlund &lt;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">ma=
gnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; On Tue, 2019-09-10 at 12:43 -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03.=C2=A0 Section <a hr=
ef=3D"http://4.1.1." rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">4.1.1.</a>:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Timestamp is eight oct=
ets long field.=C2=A0 STAMP node MUST<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; support<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Network Time Protocol (NTP) v=
ersion 4 64-bit timestamp<br>
&gt; &gt; format<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC5905], the format used in=
 [RFC5357].=C2=A0 STAMP node MAY<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; support<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IEEE 1588v2 Precision Time Pr=
otocol truncated 64-bit<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; timestamp<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0format [IEEE.1588.2008], the =
format used in [RFC8186].<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Is the clock source he=
re something that may be relevant<br>
&gt; &gt; or<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; simply<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0information the manage=
ment functions should capture. I<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; think there is a<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0similar issue to that =
of RTP faced when it comes to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; understand what the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0timestamp actually rep=
resent and thus be used<br>
&gt; &gt; correctly.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; RTP clock<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0source specification i=
s RFC 7273<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(<a href=3D"https://da=
tatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7273/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https=
://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7273/</a>)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; NTP and PTP encodings have a different interpret=
ation of<br>
&gt; &gt; the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Fraction field of the Timestamp field. In my experience, PTP=
<br>
&gt; &gt; format<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; is native for the data plane, while NTP is more used at the<=
br>
&gt; &gt; control<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; plane. Original extension to TWAMP has been described in RFC=
<br>
&gt; &gt; 8186.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; I think you missunderstood. When I talk about clock source, I am<=
br>
&gt; &gt; actually referring to identifying the particular clock that the<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; node<br>
&gt; &gt; use to derive the included timestamp from. <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; And likely this is a moot point in this document where the clock<=
br>
&gt; &gt; source<br>
&gt; &gt; information belongs in the management layer, e.g. in the YANG dat=
a<br>
&gt; &gt; model. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; In section 4.1.1 of draft-ietf-ippm-stamp there is a definition of<br>
&gt; the Z-bit in the error correction field that denotes if the clock<br>
&gt; source is NTP or PTP<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
<br>
Yes, to be clear I have no issue with if the format is NTP or PTP. That<br>
was not my comment. It was a comment if the protocol should identify<br>
which particular NTP or PTP server the node is using. For example for a<br>
node on my network having NTP based clock it matters if that NTP server<br>
is <a href=3D"http://sth1.ntp.se" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">sth1=
.ntp.se</a> which is a stratum 1 server distributing certified<br>
swedish time, or if I use <a href=3D"http://europe.pool.ntp.org" rel=3D"nor=
eferrer" target=3D"_blank">europe.pool.ntp.org</a> where I would use any NT=
P<br>
server part of the pool indicating that they are in europe. <br>
<br>
<br>
However, I am convinced that information is of interest the information<br>
should be in the management layer. <br>
<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
Magnus Westerlund <br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Network Architecture &amp; Protocols, Ericsson Research<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Ericsson AB=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 08:25:06 -0700
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Cc: "hnydell@accedian.com" <hnydell@accedian.com>,  "draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org>, "iesg@ietf.org" <iesg@ietf.org>,  "tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com" <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com>, "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>,  "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Magnus Westerlund's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Magnus,
thank you for the clarification of the question. As Henrik already noted,
in an effort to characterize the source of ingress and egress timestamps at
the Session-Reflector we've introduced the Timestamp Information TLV
(Section 4.3 in draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv). It does not provide the
name/location of the clock master/synchronization source, only a clock
synchronization protocol and the method by which the timestamp is obtained.
Much appreciate your comments, suggestions to make that TLV more useful.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 2:36 AM Magnus Westerlund <
magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Hi Henrik,
>
> On Wed, 2019-09-11 at 10:30 +0200, Henrik Nydell wrote:
> > See below for PTP/NTP comment
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 9:53 AM Magnus Westerlund <
> > magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Tue, 2019-09-10 at 12:43 -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> > >
> > > > >         3.  Section 4.1.1.:
> > > > >         Timestamp is eight octets long field.  STAMP node MUST
> > > > > support
> > > > >       Network Time Protocol (NTP) version 4 64-bit timestamp
> > > format
> > > > >       [RFC5905], the format used in [RFC5357].  STAMP node MAY
> > > > > support
> > > > >       IEEE 1588v2 Precision Time Protocol truncated 64-bit
> > > > > timestamp
> > > > >       format [IEEE.1588.2008], the format used in [RFC8186].
> > > > >
> > > > >         Is the clock source here something that may be relevant
> > > or
> > > > > simply
> > > > >         information the management functions should capture. I
> > > > > think there is a
> > > > >         similar issue to that of RTP faced when it comes to
> > > > > understand what the
> > > > >         timestamp actually represent and thus be used
> > > correctly.
> > > > > RTP clock
> > > > >         source specification is RFC 7273
> > > > >         (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7273/)
> > > >
> > > > GIM>> NTP and PTP encodings have a different interpretation of
> > > the
> > > > Fraction field of the Timestamp field. In my experience, PTP
> > > format
> > > > is native for the data plane, while NTP is more used at the
> > > control
> > > > plane. Original extension to TWAMP has been described in RFC
> > > 8186.
> > >
> > > I think you missunderstood. When I talk about clock source, I am
> > > actually referring to identifying the particular clock that the
> > > node
> > > use to derive the included timestamp from.
> > >
> > > And likely this is a moot point in this document where the clock
> > > source
> > > information belongs in the management layer, e.g. in the YANG data
> > > model.
> >
> >
> > In section 4.1.1 of draft-ietf-ippm-stamp there is a definition of
> > the Z-bit in the error correction field that denotes if the clock
> > source is NTP or PTP
> >
>
> Yes, to be clear I have no issue with if the format is NTP or PTP. That
> was not my comment. It was a comment if the protocol should identify
> which particular NTP or PTP server the node is using. For example for a
> node on my network having NTP based clock it matters if that NTP server
> is sth1.ntp.se which is a stratum 1 server distributing certified
> swedish time, or if I use europe.pool.ntp.org where I would use any NTP
> server part of the pool indicating that they are in europe.
>
>
> However, I am convinced that information is of interest the information
> should be in the management layer.
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Magnus Westerlund
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287
> Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079
> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

--000000000000f7af25059248a05d
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi=C2=A0Magnus,<div>thank you for the clarification of the=
 question. As Henrik already noted, in an effort to characterize the source=
 of ingress and egress timestamps at the Session-Reflector we&#39;ve introd=
uced the Timestamp Information TLV (Section 4.3 in draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-op=
tion-tlv). It does not provide the name/location of the clock master/synchr=
onization source, only a clock synchronization protocol and the method by w=
hich the timestamp is obtained. Much appreciate your comments, suggestions =
to make that TLV more useful.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>G=
reg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gma=
il_attr">On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 2:36 AM Magnus Westerlund &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Henr=
ik,<br>
<br>
On Wed, 2019-09-11 at 10:30 +0200, Henrik Nydell wrote:<br>
&gt; See below for PTP/NTP comment<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 9:53 AM Magnus Westerlund &lt;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">ma=
gnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; On Tue, 2019-09-10 at 12:43 -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03.=C2=A0 Section <a hr=
ef=3D"http://4.1.1." rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">4.1.1.</a>:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Timestamp is eight oct=
ets long field.=C2=A0 STAMP node MUST<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; support<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Network Time Protocol (NTP) v=
ersion 4 64-bit timestamp<br>
&gt; &gt; format<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC5905], the format used in=
 [RFC5357].=C2=A0 STAMP node MAY<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; support<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IEEE 1588v2 Precision Time Pr=
otocol truncated 64-bit<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; timestamp<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0format [IEEE.1588.2008], the =
format used in [RFC8186].<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Is the clock source he=
re something that may be relevant<br>
&gt; &gt; or<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; simply<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0information the manage=
ment functions should capture. I<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; think there is a<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0similar issue to that =
of RTP faced when it comes to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; understand what the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0timestamp actually rep=
resent and thus be used<br>
&gt; &gt; correctly.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; RTP clock<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0source specification i=
s RFC 7273<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(<a href=3D"https://da=
tatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7273/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https=
://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7273/</a>)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; NTP and PTP encodings have a different interpret=
ation of<br>
&gt; &gt; the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Fraction field of the Timestamp field. In my experience, PTP=
<br>
&gt; &gt; format<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; is native for the data plane, while NTP is more used at the<=
br>
&gt; &gt; control<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; plane. Original extension to TWAMP has been described in RFC=
<br>
&gt; &gt; 8186.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; I think you missunderstood. When I talk about clock source, I am<=
br>
&gt; &gt; actually referring to identifying the particular clock that the<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; node<br>
&gt; &gt; use to derive the included timestamp from. <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; And likely this is a moot point in this document where the clock<=
br>
&gt; &gt; source<br>
&gt; &gt; information belongs in the management layer, e.g. in the YANG dat=
a<br>
&gt; &gt; model. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
&gt; In section 4.1.1 of draft-ietf-ippm-stamp there is a definition of<br>
&gt; the Z-bit in the error correction field that denotes if the clock<br>
&gt; source is NTP or PTP<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 <br>
<br>
Yes, to be clear I have no issue with if the format is NTP or PTP. That<br>
was not my comment. It was a comment if the protocol should identify<br>
which particular NTP or PTP server the node is using. For example for a<br>
node on my network having NTP based clock it matters if that NTP server<br>
is <a href=3D"http://sth1.ntp.se" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">sth1=
.ntp.se</a> which is a stratum 1 server distributing certified<br>
swedish time, or if I use <a href=3D"http://europe.pool.ntp.org" rel=3D"nor=
eferrer" target=3D"_blank">europe.pool.ntp.org</a> where I would use any NT=
P<br>
server part of the pool indicating that they are in europe. <br>
<br>
<br>
However, I am convinced that information is of interest the information<br>
should be in the management layer. <br>
<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
Magnus Westerlund <br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Network Architecture &amp; Protocols, Ericsson Research<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Ericsson AB=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =
Phone=C2=A0 +46 10 7148287<br>
Torshamnsgatan 23=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Mobile +46 73 0=
949079<br>
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: <a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@e=
ricsson.com" target=3D"_blank">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a><br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000f7af25059248a05d--


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From: Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>
In-reply-to: <EAB5C70D-A160-423E-84FE-3CE7AC079168@trammell.ch>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 09:03:37 -0700
Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, draft-mizrahi-ippm-ioam-flags@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-mizrahi-ippm-ioam-flags Re: Regarding draft-mizrahi-ippm-ioam-flags
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Hello IPPM,

Thanks everyone for their input on the adoption of this draft! The =
chairs believe that it is the overall consensus of the group that this =
document should be adopted as a WG item. There were many good points and =
reviews raised, particularly around the loopback option. We would like =
to see this feedback incorporated into the draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-00 =
version. We can continue iterating there.

Authors, please create an updated document and submit as a WG document.

Best,
Tommy (as IPPM co-chair)

> On Jul 25, 2019, at 11:07 AM, Brian Trammell (IETF) <ietf@trammell.ch> =
wrote:
>=20
> hi Greg,
>=20
> Thanks for the feedback; absolutely, we can do this the normal way. =
Authors: let's do a normal two-week adoption call for this document =
before publishing the update.
>=20
> This adoption call starts now.
>=20
> IPPM, please respond to this message with an indication to the mailing =
list of your support for adopting draft-mizrahi-ippm-ioam-flags as a =
working group document, in partial fulfillment of our charter milestone =
"submit a Standards Track draft on inband OAM based measurement =
methodologies to the IESG" (obviously, depending on how many documents =
we end up sending to the IESG, we may have to change the plurality of =
this milestone). If you do not support this, please send a message to =
the list explaining why.
>=20
> Thanks, cheers,
>=20
> Brian (as IPPM co-chair)
>=20
>=20
>> On 25 Jul 2019, at 13:15, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> Dear Chairs, et al.,
>> I appreciate that editors of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data followed on =
the decision of the WG reached at the meeting in Prague to extract =
material not directly related to the definition of iOAM data elements =
from the document. The new draft was presented earlier this week and =
generated many comments. I feel that it would be right to discuss the =
draft and its relevance to the charter of the IPPM WG before starting WG =
adoption poll.
>>=20
>> Regards,
>> Greg
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm


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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 09:10:41 -0700
Cc: draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org
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Subject: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
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Hello IPPM,

This email starts a working group adoption call for =
draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options. This document defines the =
IPv6 option encapsulation for IOAM data. This document was discussed =
with the 6man WG, which advised that the work be done in ippm, with =
review by 6man.

The documents are available here:

=
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-option=
s/
=
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options-02

Please reply to this email by Wednesday, September 25, with your input =
on whether or not the WG should adopt this document.

Best,
Tommy (as IPPM co-chair)=


From nobody Wed Sep 11 09:11:34 2019
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Subject: [ippm] The IPPM WG has placed draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued"
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The IPPM WG has placed draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options in state
Call For Adoption By WG Issued (entered by Tommy Pauly)

The document is available at
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options/


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From: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>
To: "tpauly@apple.com" <tpauly@apple.com>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org" <draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 16:35:44 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/nbKiQV4lcOyQgGugUelY2ocvf9s>
Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
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I support adoption of the two documents as WG documents (as co-author).

Frank

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tpauly@apple.com <tpauly@apple.com>
> Sent: Mittwoch, 11. September 2019 18:11
> To: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
> Cc: draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org
> Subject: Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
>=20
> Hello IPPM,
>=20
> This email starts a working group adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6=
man-
> ioam-ipv6-options. This document defines the IPv6 option encapsulation fo=
r
> IOAM data. This document was discussed with the 6man WG, which advised th=
at
> the work be done in ippm, with review by 6man.
>=20
> The documents are available here:
>=20
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-optio=
ns/
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options-02
>=20
> Please reply to this email by Wednesday, September 25, with your input on
> whether or not the WG should adopt this document.
>=20
> Best,
> Tommy (as IPPM co-chair)


From nobody Wed Sep 11 11:14:32 2019
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From: "Ramesh Sivakolundu (sramesh)" <sramesh@cisco.com>
To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org" <draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
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From: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva@cisco.com>
To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>
CC: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>, "draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org" <draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 18:24:14 +0000
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
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Support.=20

Cheers,
Rajiv =20


> On Sep 11, 2019, at 12:11 PM, Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hello IPPM,
>=20
> This email starts a working group adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6=
man-ioam-ipv6-options. This document defines the IPv6 option encapsulation =
for IOAM data. This document was discussed with the 6man WG, which advised =
that the work be done in ippm, with review by 6man.
>=20
> The documents are available here:
>=20
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-optio=
ns/
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options-02
>=20
> Please reply to this email by Wednesday, September 25, with your input on=
 whether or not the WG should adopt this document.
>=20
> Best,
> Tommy (as IPPM co-chair)


From nobody Wed Sep 11 11:33:53 2019
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 11:33:34 -0700
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To: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
Cc: "draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org>, "iesg@ietf.org" <iesg@ietf.org>,  "tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com" <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com>, "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>,  "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Magnus Westerlund's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Magnus,
thank you for clarifications and further detailing your comments,
questions. Please find my answers and notes below in-lined under the GIM2>>
tag.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 12:53 AM Magnus Westerlund <
magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Hi Greg,
>
> Thanks for the reply. See inline for my comments and response.
>
>
> On Tue, 2019-09-10 at 12:43 -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> > Hi Magnus,
> > thank you for the review and thoughtful, pointed questions. Please
> > find my answers in-line under GIM>> tag.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Greg
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 3:54 PM Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker <
> > noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
> > > Magnus Westerlund has entered the following ballot position for
> > > draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss
> > >
> > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to
> > > all
> > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut
> > > this
> > > introductory paragraph, however.)
> > >
> > >
> > > Please refer to
> > > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> > >
> > >
> > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > -----
> > > DISCUSS:
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > -----
> > >
> > > Two very much discussing discusses. However, I would really like to
> > > hear the
> > > answer to these concerns before clearing.
> > >
> > > 1. Section 4.3: Is the HMAC field size of 16 bytes hard coded? If
> > > there ever
> > > would exist a need to deploy another integrity solution, even if
> > > the actual
> > > algorithm used to construct the tag can be agreed by the
> > > management, there
> > > appear to exist a hard look in to use 16-byte tags. Have this issue
> > > been
> > > considered?
> >
> > GIM>> Indeed, this specification defines the use of only one
> > algorithm and only 16 bytes-long HMAC field. Your question prompted
> > the discussion among authors and we believe that in a future
> > specification it would be feasible to extend supporting a number of
> > algorithms and different lengths of HMAC field both being defined
> > through extension to STAMP YANG data model.
>
> So if I understand this (taking a discussion with Mirja about keeping
> things as simple as possible) the solution is to basically is when need
> arises define a new STAMP version, and then use YANG to coordinate
> which version is used for the measurement. If that is a correct re-
> interpretation of your response then I am fine with it.
>
GIM2>> The direction from the WG was to keep the base specification as
simple  as possible (and that was the reason to split TLV extensions into a
separate document).

>
> > >         2. Section 6:
> > >         The possible impact of the
> > >    STAMP test packets on the network MUST be thoroughly analyzed,
> > > and
> > >    the use of STAMP for each case MUST be agreed by all users on
> > > the
> > >    network before starting the STAMP test session.
> > >
> > >         I assume some potential issues are know, shouldn't they
> > > really be
> > >         listed here in the security consideration to further
> > > motivate why the
> > >         analysis needs to happen.
> >
> > GIM>> This is in reference to using numbers from the User range as
> > the destination port number. Would adding the reference to the case
> > of using the port numbers from the User range address your concern?
> > Or rather refer to Section 4, as it includes more discussion (see
> > below)?
>
> Okay, I don't really care where the discussion happens. But I don't
> find any real discussion and listing of the concerns with using user or
> dynamic ports for STAMP Sessions? With the formulation you use, I would
> expect at least some list of potential concerns that needs to be
> evaluated in the context of the particular usage of STAMP.
>
GIM2>> Per Berry's suggestion, I'm adding a new section, Operational
Considerations, to list possible scenarios and possible issues with using
destination ports from the User range and from the Dynamic range. I hope to
finish it in a couple days. Will share on this discussion thread promptly.

>
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > -----
> > > COMMENT:
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > -----
> > >
> > >         1. Section 4:
> > >         Before using numbers from the User Ports range, the
> > > possible impact
> > >    on the network MUST be carefully studied and agreed by all users
> > > of
> > >    the network.
> > >
> > >         Is the above sentence missing to list an important
> > > assumption? Is the
> > >         assumption that by using the registred destination port an
> > > operator
> > >         that sees to much STAMP traffic can simply filter it out
> > > and that way
> > >         deal with the traffic, something which is not possible when
> > > using an
> > >         locally decided port? If that is the case, this assumption
> > > should
> > >         probably be noted.
> >
> > GIM>> That is a very good point but our primary motivation for this
> > cautionary note (or strong warning) was that by allowing STAMP to use
> > port numbers from the User range, ports that may be already assigned
> > to protocols, creates a DDOS attack vector. As for the filtering
> > STAMP traffic out, I think that even if the destination port is one
> > from the Dynamic range, for a relatively long test session it can be
> > filtered out.
>
> So if that is the only? concern then write it out. I would expect that
> the higher layer management protocol that creates a measurement session
> to actually ensure that the STAMP endpoint actually have the port
> numbers they attempt to use. Isn't that a reasonable requirement to put
> on the solution?
>
GIM2>> Agree with your suggestion. Will put in the new section. If STAMP is
managed by a centralized system, whether it is proprietary OSS/BSS or an
orchestrator that uses YANG data models, the system will be able to
coordinate selection of port numbers on the Session-Sender and
Session-Reflector. But some systems may use EMS or CLI and that is where
human coordination may be required.

>
> My thinking with the filtering out concern was that in cases where one
> runs STAMP measurement sessions, if the measurement interfer with
> critical traffic an action for an on-path node that can actually
> identify the STAMP traffic was to filer it out. And that may be
> considered trivial when the well known port is used, but if a user or
> dynamic port is used, then that requries a managment system to provide
> the on-path node with the necessary information, i.e. 3/5 tuple for the
> STAMP flows.
>
GIM2>> I think that a transit node can identify a flow as the STAMP flow
only if the destination port is the STAMP default UDP destination port
number, 862. In case a STAMP session has the destination port number as one
of port numbers from the User range, IP/UDP encapsulation of STAMP packets
would be indistinguishable from packets originated by the application that
is assigned that port number. Thus, filtering out on only destination port
number may negatively affect service, legitimate service. Because of that,
I think that filtering will have to use more information. On the other
hand, if the test flow does not exceed agreed rate, then any filtering test
packets out, in my opinion, is counter-productive, as it hides some issues
in the networks rather than letting the OAM tools to expose them, localize,
and characterize.

>
>
> > >         2. Section 3 and 4, and 4.1.1: What is a STAMP Session? Is
> > > that a
> > >         measurment session between one specific and sender and a
> > > specific
> > >         reflector for a time duration?  The defenition of the
> > > session do matter
> > >         if one intended to enable a single sender to use multiple
> > > reflectors,
> > >         and if that can be a single session or always multiple
> > > indepdendent
> > >         ones. Would appreciate a definition what a session is. If
> > > it is
> > >         possible to send STAMP traffic using a multicast or
> > > broadcast address
> > >         should be made explicit.
> >
> > GIM>> Your interpretation is correct, STAMP session is implicitly
> > defined as p2p. And that is what reflected in the STAMP YANG model.
> > Would the following text make it clearer:
> > NEW TEXT:
> >    In this document, a measurement session also referred to as
> >    STAMP session, is the session between one specific Session-Sender
> > and
> >    one particular Session-Reflector for a time duration.
>
> Yes, please include that definition. Question would it be clearer to
> replace ".. is the session betweeen .." with ".. is the bi-directional
> packet flows between .."?
>
GIM2>> I agree, defining a session as a session makes is somewhat
repetitive. Thank you.
Below is the updated text:
   In this document, a measurement session also referred to as
   STAMP session, is the bi-directional packet flow between one specific
   Session-Sender and one particular Session-Reflector for a time
   duration.

>
>
> > >         3.  Section 4.1.1.:
> > >         Timestamp is eight octets long field.  STAMP node MUST
> > > support
> > >       Network Time Protocol (NTP) version 4 64-bit timestamp format
> > >       [RFC5905], the format used in [RFC5357].  STAMP node MAY
> > > support
> > >       IEEE 1588v2 Precision Time Protocol truncated 64-bit
> > > timestamp
> > >       format [IEEE.1588.2008], the format used in [RFC8186].
> > >
> > >         Is the clock source here something that may be relevant or
> > > simply
> > >         information the management functions should capture. I
> > > think there is a
> > >         similar issue to that of RTP faced when it comes to
> > > understand what the
> > >         timestamp actually represent and thus be used correctly.
> > > RTP clock
> > >         source specification is RFC 7273
> > >         (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7273/)
> >
> > GIM>> NTP and PTP encodings have a different interpretation of the
> > Fraction field of the Timestamp field. In my experience, PTP format
> > is native for the data plane, while NTP is more used at the control
> > plane. Original extension to TWAMP has been described in RFC 8186.
>
> I think you missunderstood. When I talk about clock source, I am
> actually referring to identifying the particular clock that the node
> use to derive the included timestamp from.
>
> And likely this is a moot point in this document where the clock source
> information belongs in the management layer, e.g. in the YANG data
> model.
>
GIM2>> Timestamp Information TLV (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv/?include_text=1>)
provides information about the clock synchronization protocol and the
method by wich the timestamp has been acquired at a Session-Reflector. We
may extend it to list the name/locatior of the master clock.

>
>
> > >         4. Section 4.1:
> > >            Because STAMP supports symmetrical test packets, STAMP
> > > Session-Sender
> > >    packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated mode,
> > > see
> > >    Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see Figure
> > > 4.
> > >
> > >         The above text implies some potential for UDP payload size
> > > variability
> > >         for the STAMP packets. However, the actual definition
> > > appear to have
> > >         fixed sizes. Can you please clarify if I have missed
> > > something that
> > >         enables the STAMP packet to have variable size?
> >
> > GIM>> I think that the text can be improved by characterizing the
> > listed sizes as "base". The variable length of a test packet in STAMP
> > is supported by using Extra Padding TLV defined in draft-ietf-ippm-
> > stamp-option-tlv. Below is the proposed update:
> > OLD TEXT:
> >    Because STAMP supports symmetrical test packets, STAMP Session-
> > Sender
> >    packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated mode,
> > see
> >    Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see Figure 4.
> > NEW TEXT:
> >    STAMP supports symmetrical test packets.  The base STAMP Session-
> >    Sender packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated
> >    mode, see Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see
> >    Figure 4.  The variable length of a test packet in STAMP is
> > supported
> >    by using Extra Padding TLV defined in
> >    [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv].
> >
> > With the new reference, should I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv be
> > moved to the Normative References list or may remain in the
> > Informative list?
>
> From my perspective, the fact that optional TLV may occur following the
> base headers appears quite important. Here comes a question of
> intention form the WG. Is it intended that one can have STAMP endpoints
> that do not even support receiving packets larger than the base?
>

> In other words there will be two main versions already now, one that
> supports some TLV and can at least handle the TLV skip forward and
> ignore the content and one that will throw a fit over the TLVs? If that
> is not the intention I think the fact that TLV's may occur should be
> moved into this specification and have it as a normative reference.
>
GIM2>> Will move the reference to the Normative section. With TLV being
normative, I'd expect that the intelligent implementation of this draft, of
the base STAMP specification, will accept any valid STAMP packet though not
process extensions. But the base STAMP Session-Reflector will return the
base reflected packet.

>
> I guess the answer is that you have backwards comaptibility reasons for
> not allowing TLVs at all in some sessions, or?
>
GIM2>> Yes, that and the principle "keep it simple".

>
>
> Cheers
>
> Magnus Westerlund
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287
> Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079
> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Magnus,<div>thank you for clarificatio=
ns and further detailing your comments, questions. Please find my answers a=
nd notes below in-lined under the GIM2&gt;&gt; tag.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div di=
r=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 12:53 AM Magnus West=
erlund &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com">magnus.westerl=
und@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex">Hi Greg,<br>
<br>
Thanks for the reply. See inline for my comments and response. <br>
<br>
<br>
On Tue, 2019-09-10 at 12:43 -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi Magnus,<br>
&gt; thank you for the review and thoughtful, pointed questions. Please<br>
&gt; find my answers in-line under GIM&gt;&gt; tag.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Greg<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 3:54 PM Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker &lt;<=
br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf.org=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; Magnus Westerlund has entered the following ballot position for<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to=
<br>
&gt; &gt; all<br>
&gt; &gt; email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cu=
t<br>
&gt; &gt; this<br>
&gt; &gt; introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Please refer to <br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.h=
tml" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/stateme=
nt/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
&gt; &gt; for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br=
>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found her=
e:<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp=
/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr=
aft-ietf-ippm-stamp/</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; -----------------------------------------------------------------=
<br>
&gt; &gt; -----<br>
&gt; &gt; DISCUSS:<br>
&gt; &gt; -----------------------------------------------------------------=
<br>
&gt; &gt; -----<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Two very much discussing discusses. However, I would really like =
to<br>
&gt; &gt; hear the<br>
&gt; &gt; answer to these concerns before clearing.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; 1. Section 4.3: Is the HMAC field size of 16 bytes hard coded? If=
<br>
&gt; &gt; there ever<br>
&gt; &gt; would exist a need to deploy another integrity solution, even if<=
br>
&gt; &gt; the actual<br>
&gt; &gt; algorithm used to construct the tag can be agreed by the<br>
&gt; &gt; management, there<br>
&gt; &gt; appear to exist a hard look in to use 16-byte tags. Have this iss=
ue<br>
&gt; &gt; been<br>
&gt; &gt; considered?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GIM&gt;&gt; Indeed, this specification defines the use of only one<br>
&gt; algorithm and only 16 bytes-long HMAC field. Your question prompted<br=
>
&gt; the discussion among authors and we believe that in a future<br>
&gt; specification it would be feasible to extend supporting a number of<br=
>
&gt; algorithms and different lengths of HMAC field both being defined<br>
&gt; through extension to STAMP YANG data model.<br>
<br>
So if I understand this (taking a discussion with Mirja about keeping<br>
things as simple as possible) the solution is to basically is when need<br>
arises define a new STAMP version, and then use YANG to coordinate<br>
which version is used for the measurement. If that is a correct re-<br>
interpretation of your response then I am fine with it. <br></blockquote><d=
iv>GIM2&gt;&gt; The direction from the WG was to keep the base specificatio=
n as simple=C2=A0 as possible (and that was the reason to split TLV extensi=
ons into a separate document).=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex">
<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02. Section 6:<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The possible impact of the<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 STAMP test packets on the network MUST be thoroughly=
 analyzed,<br>
&gt; &gt; and<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the use of STAMP for each case MUST be agreed by all=
 users on<br>
&gt; &gt; the<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 network before starting the STAMP test session.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I assume some potential issues a=
re know, shouldn&#39;t they<br>
&gt; &gt; really be<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0listed here in the security cons=
ideration to further<br>
&gt; &gt; motivate why the<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0analysis needs to happen.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GIM&gt;&gt; This is in reference to using numbers from the User range =
as<br>
&gt; the destination port number. Would adding the reference to the case<br=
>
&gt; of using the port numbers from the User range address your concern?<br=
>
&gt; Or rather refer to Section 4, as it includes more discussion (see <br>
&gt; below)? <br>
<br>
Okay, I don&#39;t really care where the discussion happens. But I don&#39;t=
<br>
find any real discussion and listing of the concerns with using user or<br>
dynamic ports for STAMP Sessions? With the formulation you use, I would<br>
expect at least some list of potential concerns that needs to be<br>
evaluated in the context of the particular usage of STAMP. <br></blockquote=
><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; Per Berry&#39;s suggestion, I&#39;m adding a new section=
, Operational Considerations, to list possible scenarios and possible issue=
s with using destination ports from the User range and from the Dynamic ran=
ge. I hope to finish it in a couple days. Will share on this discussion thr=
ead promptly.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; -----------------------------------------------------------------=
<br>
&gt; &gt; -----<br>
&gt; &gt; COMMENT:<br>
&gt; &gt; -----------------------------------------------------------------=
<br>
&gt; &gt; -----<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01. Section 4:<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Before using numbers from the Us=
er Ports range, the<br>
&gt; &gt; possible impact<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 on the network MUST be carefully studied and agreed =
by all users<br>
&gt; &gt; of<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the network.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Is the above sentence missing to=
 list an important<br>
&gt; &gt; assumption? Is the<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0assumption that by using the reg=
istred destination port an<br>
&gt; &gt; operator<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that sees to much STAMP traffic =
can simply filter it out<br>
&gt; &gt; and that way<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0deal with the traffic, something=
 which is not possible when<br>
&gt; &gt; using an<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0locally decided port? If that is=
 the case, this assumption<br>
&gt; &gt; should<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0probably be noted.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GIM&gt;&gt; That is a very good point but our primary motivation for t=
his<br>
&gt; cautionary note (or strong warning) was that by allowing STAMP to use<=
br>
&gt; port numbers from the User range, ports that may be already assigned<b=
r>
&gt; to protocols, creates a DDOS attack vector. As for the filtering<br>
&gt; STAMP traffic out, I think that even if the destination port is one<br=
>
&gt; from the Dynamic range, for a relatively long test session it can be<b=
r>
&gt; filtered out.<br>
<br>
So if that is the only? concern then write it out. I would expect that<br>
the higher layer management protocol that creates a measurement session<br>
to actually ensure that the STAMP endpoint actually have the port<br>
numbers they attempt to use. Isn&#39;t that a reasonable requirement to put=
<br>
on the solution? <br></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; Agree with your suggest=
ion. Will put in the new section. If STAMP is managed by a centralized syst=
em, whether it is proprietary OSS/BSS or an orchestrator that uses YANG dat=
a models, the system will be able to coordinate selection of port numbers o=
n the Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. But some systems may use EMS or=
 CLI and that is where human coordination may be required.=C2=A0</div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
My thinking with the filtering out concern was that in cases where one<br>
runs STAMP measurement sessions, if the measurement interfer with<br>
critical traffic an action for an on-path node that can actually<br>
identify the STAMP traffic was to filer it out. And that may be<br>
considered trivial when the well known port is used, but if a user or<br>
dynamic port is used, then that requries a managment system to provide<br>
the on-path node with the necessary information, i.e. 3/5 tuple for the<br>
STAMP flows. <br></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; I think that a transit node=
 can identify a flow as the STAMP flow only if the destination port is the =
STAMP default UDP destination port number, 862. In case a STAMP session has=
 the destination port number as one of port numbers from the User range, IP=
/UDP encapsulation of STAMP packets would be indistinguishable from packets=
 originated by the application that is assigned that port number. Thus, fil=
tering out on only destination port number may negatively affect service, l=
egitimate service. Because of that, I think that filtering will have to use=
 more information. On the other hand, if the test flow does not exceed agre=
ed rate, then any filtering test packets out, in my opinion, is counter-pro=
ductive, as it hides some issues in the networks rather than letting the OA=
M tools to expose them, localize, and characterize.</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02. Section 3 and 4, and 4.1.1: W=
hat is a STAMP Session? Is<br>
&gt; &gt; that a<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0measurment session between one s=
pecific and sender and a<br>
&gt; &gt; specific<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reflector for a time duration?=
=C2=A0 The defenition of the<br>
&gt; &gt; session do matter<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0if one intended to enable a sing=
le sender to use multiple<br>
&gt; &gt; reflectors,<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and if that can be a single sess=
ion or always multiple<br>
&gt; &gt; indepdendent<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ones. Would appreciate a definit=
ion what a session is. If<br>
&gt; &gt; it is<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0possible to send STAMP traffic u=
sing a multicast or<br>
&gt; &gt; broadcast address<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should be made explicit.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GIM&gt;&gt; Your interpretation is correct, STAMP session is implicitl=
y<br>
&gt; defined as p2p. And that is what reflected in the STAMP YANG model.<br=
>
&gt; Would the following text make it clearer:<br>
&gt; NEW TEXT:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In this document, a measurement session also referred to =
as<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 STAMP session, is the session between one specific Sessio=
n-Sender<br>
&gt; and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 one particular Session-Reflector for a time duration.<br>
<br>
Yes, please include that definition. Question would it be clearer to<br>
replace &quot;.. is the session betweeen ..&quot; with &quot;.. is the bi-d=
irectional<br>
packet flows between ..&quot;? <br></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; I agree, =
defining a session as a session makes is somewhat repetitive. Thank you.=C2=
=A0</div><div>Below is the updated text:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0In this doc=
ument, a measurement session also referred to as<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0STAMP sess=
ion, is the bi-directional packet flow between one specific<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0Session-Sender and one particular Session-Reflector for a time<br>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0duration.<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
>
<br>
<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03.=C2=A0 Section <a href=3D"http=
://4.1.1." rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">4.1.1.</a>:<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Timestamp is eight octets long f=
ield.=C2=A0 STAMP node MUST<br>
&gt; &gt; support<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Network Time Protocol (NTP) version 4 6=
4-bit timestamp format<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC5905], the format used in [RFC5357]=
.=C2=A0 STAMP node MAY<br>
&gt; &gt; support<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IEEE 1588v2 Precision Time Protocol tru=
ncated 64-bit<br>
&gt; &gt; timestamp<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0format [IEEE.1588.2008], the format use=
d in [RFC8186].<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Is the clock source here somethi=
ng that may be relevant or<br>
&gt; &gt; simply<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0information the management funct=
ions should capture. I<br>
&gt; &gt; think there is a<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0similar issue to that of RTP fac=
ed when it comes to<br>
&gt; &gt; understand what the<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0timestamp actually represent and=
 thus be used correctly.<br>
&gt; &gt; RTP clock<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0source specification is RFC 7273=
<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(<a href=3D"https://datatracker.=
ietf.org/doc/rfc7273/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatra=
cker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7273/</a>)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GIM&gt;&gt; NTP and PTP encodings have a different interpretation of t=
he<br>
&gt; Fraction field of the Timestamp field. In my experience, PTP format<br=
>
&gt; is native for the data plane, while NTP is more used at the control<br=
>
&gt; plane. Original extension to TWAMP has been described in RFC 8186.<br>
<br>
I think you missunderstood. When I talk about clock source, I am<br>
actually referring to identifying the particular clock that the node<br>
use to derive the included timestamp from. <br>
<br>
And likely this is a moot point in this document where the clock source<br>
information belongs in the management layer, e.g. in the YANG data<br>
model. <br></blockquote><div>GIM2&gt;&gt; Timestamp Information TLV (<a hre=
f=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv/?inc=
lude_text=3D1">draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv</a>) provides information a=
bout the clock synchronization protocol and the method by wich the timestam=
p has been acquired at a Session-Reflector. We may extend it to list the na=
me/locatior of the master clock.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddi=
ng-left:1ex">
<br>
<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04. Section 4.1:<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Because STAMP supports s=
ymmetrical test packets, STAMP<br>
&gt; &gt; Session-Sender<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenti=
cated mode,<br>
&gt; &gt; see<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, =
see Figure<br>
&gt; &gt; 4.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The above text implies some pote=
ntial for UDP payload size<br>
&gt; &gt; variability<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for the STAMP packets. However, =
the actual definition<br>
&gt; &gt; appear to have<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0fixed sizes. Can you please clar=
ify if I have missed<br>
&gt; &gt; something that<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0enables the STAMP packet to have=
 variable size?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GIM&gt;&gt; I think that the text can be improved by characterizing th=
e<br>
&gt; listed sizes as &quot;base&quot;. The variable length of a test packet=
 in STAMP<br>
&gt; is supported by using Extra Padding TLV defined in draft-ietf-ippm-<br=
>
&gt; stamp-option-tlv. Below is the proposed update:<br>
&gt; OLD TEXT:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Because STAMP supports symmetrical test packets, STAMP Se=
ssion-<br>
&gt; Sender<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated=
 mode,<br>
&gt; see<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see F=
igure 4.<br>
&gt; NEW TEXT:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 STAMP supports symmetrical test packets.=C2=A0 The base S=
TAMP Session-<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sender packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthen=
ticated<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mode, see Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated m=
ode, see<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Figure 4.=C2=A0 The variable length of a test packet in S=
TAMP is<br>
&gt; supported<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 by using Extra Padding TLV defined in<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv].<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; With the new reference, should I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv be<br>
&gt; moved to the Normative References list or may remain in the<br>
&gt; Informative list?<br>
<br>
>From my perspective, the fact that optional TLV may occur following the<br>
base headers appears quite important. Here comes a question of<br>
intention form the WG. Is it intended that one can have STAMP endpoints<br>
that do not even support receiving packets larger than the base? <br></bloc=
kquote><div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
In other words there will be two main versions already now, one that<br>
supports some TLV and can at least handle the TLV skip forward and<br>
ignore the content and one that will throw a fit over the TLVs? If that<br>
is not the intention I think the fact that TLV&#39;s may occur should be<br=
>
moved into this specification and have it as a normative reference.<br></bl=
ockquote><div>

GIM2&gt;&gt; Will move the reference to the Normative section. With TLV bei=
ng normative, I&#39;d expect that the intelligent implementation of this dr=
aft, of the base STAMP specification, will accept any valid STAMP packet th=
ough not process extensions. But the base STAMP Session-Reflector will retu=
rn the base reflected packet.

=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
I guess the answer is that you have backwards comaptibility reasons for<br>
not allowing TLVs at all in some sessions, or? <br></blockquote><div>GIM2&g=
t;&gt; Yes, that and the principle &quot;keep it simple&quot;.=C2=A0</div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
Magnus Westerlund <br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Network Architecture &amp; Protocols, Ericsson Research<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Ericsson AB=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =
Phone=C2=A0 +46 10 7148287<br>
Torshamnsgatan 23=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Mobile +46 73 0=
949079<br>
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: <a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@e=
ricsson.com" target=3D"_blank">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a><br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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CC: "draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org" <draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
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From nobody Wed Sep 11 12:50:34 2019
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Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-metric-registry-20.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Registry for Performance Metrics
        Authors         : Marcelo Bagnulo
                          Benoit Claise
                          Philip Eardley
                          Al Morton
                          Aamer Akhter
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ippm-metric-registry-20.txt
	Pages           : 34
	Date            : 2019-09-11

Abstract:
   This document defines the format for the IANA Performance Metrics
   Registry.  This document also gives a set of guidelines for
   Registered Performance Metric requesters and reviewers.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-metric-registry/

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From nobody Wed Sep 11 12:53:18 2019
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Initial Performance Metrics Registry Entries
        Authors         : Al Morton
                          Marcelo Bagnulo
                          Philip Eardley
                          Kevin D'Souza
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry-12.txt
	Pages           : 77
	Date            : 2019-09-11

Abstract:
   This memo defines the set of Initial Entries for the IANA Performance
   Metrics Registry.  The set includes, UDP Round-trip Latency and Loss,
   Packet Delay Variation, DNS Response Latency and Loss, UDP Poisson
   One-way Delay and Loss, UDP Periodic One-way Delay and Loss, ICMP
   Round-trip Latency and Loss, and TCP round-trip Latency and Loss.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry/

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From nobody Wed Sep 11 12:57:49 2019
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Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-route-05.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Advanced Unidirectional Route Assessment (AURA)
        Authors         : José Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin
                          Al Morton
                          Joachim Fabini
                          Carlos Pignataro
                          Ruediger Geib
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ippm-route-05.txt
	Pages           : 27
	Date            : 2019-09-11

Abstract:
   This memo introduces an advanced unidirectional route assessment
   (AURA) metric and associated measurement methodology, based on the IP
   Performance Metrics (IPPM) Framework RFC 2330.  This memo updates RFC
   2330 in the areas of path-related terminology and path description,
   primarily to include the possibility of parallel subpaths between a
   given Source and Destination pair, owing to the presence of multi-
   path technologies.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-route/

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From nobody Wed Sep 11 13:35:17 2019
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From: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <acm@research.att.com>
To: Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
CC: "draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry.all@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>, Michelle Cotton <michelle.cotton@iana.org>
Thread-Topic: AD review of draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry-11
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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 20:34:43 +0000
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References: <40A0B71C-4857-46F0-9096-6EE289E7404B@kuehlewind.net> <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CFA0AF4FA4@njmtexg5.research.att.com> <A8DB5ACD-7099-4642-B83C-E0C8A245C47B@kuehlewind.net>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] AD review of draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry-11
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From: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <acm@research.att.com>
To: Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
CC: "draft-ietf-ippm-metric-registry.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-metric-registry.all@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>, Michelle Cotton <michelle.cotton@iana.org>
Thread-Topic: AD review of draft-ietf-ippm-metric-registry-19
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From: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <acm@research.att.com>
To: "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-route-05.txt
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From: Mickey Spiegel <mspiegel@barefootnetworks.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 15:57:27 -0700
Message-ID: <CACYmcDqR0OmTpMdhLZxE7oHo4UND2NEiP358NjTTA6j_v_99Qw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>
Cc: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>, draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/xmfyJjTxOhSHFb3LIkaBJeA8FfI>
Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
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Support (as co-author).

Mickey

On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 9:11 AM Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com> wrote:

> Hello IPPM,
>
> This email starts a working group adoption call for
> draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options. This document defines the IPv6
> option encapsulation for IOAM data. This document was discussed with the
> 6man WG, which advised that the work be done in ippm, with review by 6man.
>
> The documents are available here:
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options/
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options-02
>
> Please reply to this email by Wednesday, September 25, with your input on
> whether or not the WG should adopt this document.
>
> Best,
> Tommy (as IPPM co-chair)

--00000000000087160905924ef21f
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Support (as co-author).<div><br></div><div>Mickey</div></d=
iv><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On =
Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 9:11 AM Tommy Pauly &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tpauly@apple=
.com">tpauly@apple.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex">Hello IPPM,<br>
<br>
This email starts a working group adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6ma=
n-ioam-ipv6-options. This document defines the IPv6 option encapsulation fo=
r IOAM data. This document was discussed with the 6man WG, which advised th=
at the work be done in ippm, with review by 6man.<br>
<br>
The documents are available here:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-i=
pv6-options/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf=
.org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options/</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-o=
ptions-02" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options-02</a><br>
<br>
Please reply to this email by Wednesday, September 25, with your input on w=
hether or not the WG should adopt this document.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Tommy (as IPPM co-chair)</blockquote></div>

--00000000000087160905924ef21f--


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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>
CC: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>, "draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org" <draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
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This is an important encapsulation for IOAM data fields in IPv6, and as suc=
h support adoption of this document. IOAM Data is adopted, and this makes i=
t real for IPv6 deployments.

(As co-author)

Best,

Carlos.

> On Sep 11, 2019, at 12:10 PM, Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hello IPPM,
>=20
> This email starts a working group adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6=
man-ioam-ipv6-options. This document defines the IPv6 option encapsulation =
for IOAM data. This document was discussed with the 6man WG, which advised =
that the work be done in ippm, with review by 6man.
>=20
> The documents are available here:
>=20
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-optio=
ns/
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options-02
>=20
> Please reply to this email by Wednesday, September 25, with your input on=
 whether or not the WG should adopt this document.
>=20
> Best,
> Tommy (as IPPM co-chair)


From nobody Wed Sep 11 17:31:09 2019
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From: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 17:30:53 -0700
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
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--000000000000bcb8420592504007
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

How would the headers look when IOAM is used in conjunction with IPv6
segment routing?  Does the IOAM header and metadata precede or follow the
segment routing header?

Thanks,
Anoop

On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 9:11 AM Tommy Pauly <tpauly=
40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> Hello IPPM,
>
> This email starts a working group adoption call for
> draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options. This document defines the IPv6
> option encapsulation for IOAM data. This document was discussed with the
> 6man WG, which advised that the work be done in ippm, with review by 6man.
>
> The documents are available here:
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options/
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options-02
>
> Please reply to this email by Wednesday, September 25, with your input on
> whether or not the WG should adopt this document.
>
> Best,
> Tommy (as IPPM co-chair)
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>

--000000000000bcb8420592504007
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>How would the headers look when IOAM is used in c=
onjunction with IPv6 segment routing?=C2=A0 Does the IOAM header and metada=
ta precede or follow=C2=A0the segment routing header?</div><div><br></div><=
div>Thanks,</div><div>Anoop</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 9:11 AM Tommy Paul=
y &lt;tpauly=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40apple.com@dm=
arc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddin=
g-left:1ex">Hello IPPM,<br>
<br>
This email starts a working group adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6ma=
n-ioam-ipv6-options. This document defines the IPv6 option encapsulation fo=
r IOAM data. This document was discussed with the 6man WG, which advised th=
at the work be done in ippm, with review by 6man.<br>
<br>
The documents are available here:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-i=
pv6-options/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf=
.org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options/</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-o=
ptions-02" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options-02</a><br>
<br>
Please reply to this email by Wednesday, September 25, with your input on w=
hether or not the WG should adopt this document.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Tommy (as IPPM co-chair)<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
ippm mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ippm@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000bcb8420592504007--


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From: Lizhenbin <lizhenbin@huawei.com>
To: Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>, Tommy Pauly <tpauly=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org" <draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>, IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
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From nobody Wed Sep 11 19:15:05 2019
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To: Lizhenbin <lizhenbin@huawei.com>, Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu>,  Tommy Pauly <tpauly=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: "draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org" <draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org>, IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
References: <EF8A9ED8-171F-42E4-9E69-82EB25F5D294@apple.com> <CA+-tSzwFBLdFgm=Veb9JpK3Up8BgJp=sW24RdvYX5v3F0Z13KA@mail.gmail.com> <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D934AD23E@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 22:14:56 -0400
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/QqCF5L6GWEePK59NTjHnaBT6mco>
Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
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No, please.
That draft proposes recoding the information from SFC's NSH into some 
other format.  This removes the entire interoperability premise of teh 
NSH work.

Yours,
Joel

On 9/11/2019 9:14 PM, Lizhenbin wrote:
> Agree very much. We also proposed the challenges and the optimization 
> considering when IOAM and SRH are used together in the following draft.
> 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-6man-ipv6-sfc-ifit/
> 
> That is the reason why we do not think the solution proposed by 
> draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options is reasonable.
> 
> In order for better understanding and discussion, 6MAN WG is copied.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Zhenbin (Robin)
> 
> *From:*ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Anoop Ghanwani
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 12, 2019 8:31 AM
> *To:* Tommy Pauly <tpauly=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> *Cc:* draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG 
> <ippm@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [ippm] Adoption call for 
> draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
> 
> How would the headers look when IOAM is used in conjunction with IPv6 
> segment routing?  Does the IOAM header and metadata precede or 
> follow the segment routing header?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Anoop
> 
> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 9:11 AM Tommy Pauly 
> <tpauly=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> 
> wrote:
> 
>     Hello IPPM,
> 
>     This email starts a working group adoption call for
>     draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options. This document defines
>     the IPv6 option encapsulation for IOAM data. This document was
>     discussed with the 6man WG, which advised that the work be done in
>     ippm, with review by 6man.
> 
>     The documents are available here:
> 
>     https://datatracker.ietf..org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options/
>     <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options/>
>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options-02
> 
>     Please reply to this email by Wednesday, September 25, with your
>     input on whether or not the WG should adopt this document.
> 
>     Best,
>     Tommy (as IPPM co-chair)
>     _______________________________________________
>     ippm mailing list
>     ippm@ietf.org <mailto:ippm@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 


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From: "Vengada Prasad Govindan (venggovi)" <venggovi@cisco.com>
To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>, "tpauly@apple.com" <tpauly@apple.com>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org" <draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
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Support progressing the two documents as WG drafts.

Thanks
Prasad

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tpauly@apple.com <tpauly@apple.com>
> Sent: Mittwoch, 11. September 2019 18:11
> To: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
> Cc: draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org
> Subject: Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
>=20
> Hello IPPM,
>=20
> This email starts a working group adoption call for=20
> draft-ioametal-ippm-6man- ioam-ipv6-options. This document defines the=20
> IPv6 option encapsulation for IOAM data. This document was discussed=20
> with the 6man WG, which advised that the work be done in ippm, with revie=
w by 6man.
>=20
> The documents are available here:
>=20
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-op
> tions/
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
> -02
>=20
> Please reply to this email by Wednesday, September 25, with your input=20
> on whether or not the WG should adopt this document.
>=20
> Best,
> Tommy (as IPPM co-chair)

_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm


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From: Aviv Kfir <avivk@mellanox.com>
To: "Vengada Prasad Govindan (venggovi)" <venggovi@cisco.com>, "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>, "tpauly@apple.com" <tpauly@apple.com>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org" <draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
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Support

-----Original Message-----
From: Vengada Prasad Govindan (venggovi) <venggovi@cisco.com>=20
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 6:43 AM
To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com>; tpauly@apple.com; IETF=
 IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options

Support progressing the two documents as WG drafts.

Thanks
Prasad

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tpauly@apple.com <tpauly@apple.com>
> Sent: Mittwoch, 11. September 2019 18:11
> To: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
> Cc: draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org
> Subject: Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
>=20
> Hello IPPM,
>=20
> This email starts a working group adoption call for
> draft-ioametal-ippm-6man- ioam-ipv6-options. This document defines the
> IPv6 option encapsulation for IOAM data. This document was discussed=20
> with the 6man WG, which advised that the work be done in ippm, with revie=
w by 6man.
>=20
> The documents are available here:
>=20
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdata
> tracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-op&amp;dat
> a=3D02%7C01%7Cavivk%40mellanox.com%7C4c481365d2a0470adc9708d737337a4a%7C
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> tions/
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> s.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options&amp;dat
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> a=3DIBkxiv%2Fs7wLjnH1lOpkzIjUxM2lu4fuLMi2EV7k37S0%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
> -02
>=20
> Please reply to this email by Wednesday, September 25, with your input=20
> on whether or not the WG should adopt this document.
>=20
> Best,
> Tommy (as IPPM co-chair)

_______________________________________________
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From nobody Thu Sep 12 05:23:56 2019
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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 14:23:47 +0200 (CEST)
From: Justin Iurman <justin.iurman@uliege.be>
Reply-To: Justin Iurman <justin.iurman@uliege.be>
To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>,  draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
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Support.

Justin

----- Mail original -----
> De: "Tommy Pauly" <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> =C3=80: "IETF IPPM WG" <ippm@ietf.org>
> Cc: draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org
> Envoy=C3=A9: Mercredi 11 Septembre 2019 18:10:41
> Objet: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-option=
s

> Hello IPPM,
>=20
> This email starts a working group adoption call for
> draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options. This document defines the IPv=
6
> option encapsulation for IOAM data. This document was discussed with the =
6man
> WG, which advised that the work be done in ippm, with review by 6man.
>=20
> The documents are available here:
>=20
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-optio=
ns/
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options-02
>=20
> Please reply to this email by Wednesday, September 25, with your input on
> whether or not the WG should adopt this document.
>=20
> Best,
> Tommy (as IPPM co-chair)


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From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
To: "gregimirsky@gmail.com" <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: "draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org>, "iesg@ietf.org" <iesg@ietf.org>, "tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com" <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com>, "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Magnus Westerlund's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Magnus Westerlund's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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On Wed, 2019-09-11 at 11:33 -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> Hi Magnus,
> thank you for clarifications and further detailing your comments,
> questions. Please find my answers and notes below in-lined under the
> GIM2>> tag.
>=20
> Regards,
> Greg
>=20
> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 12:53 AM Magnus Westerlund <
> magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > Hi Greg,
> >=20
> > Thanks for the reply. See inline for my comments and response.=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > On Tue, 2019-09-10 at 12:43 -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> > > Hi Magnus,
> > > thank you for the review and thoughtful, pointed questions.
> > Please
> > > find my answers in-line under GIM>> tag.
> > >=20
> > > Regards,
> > > Greg
> > >=20
> > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 3:54 PM Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker
> > <
> > > noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
> > > > Magnus Westerlund has entered the following ballot position for
> > > > draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss
> > > >=20
> > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply
> > to
> > > > all
> > > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to
> > cut
> > > > this
> > > > introductory paragraph, however.)
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > Please refer to=20
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> > > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found
> > here:
> > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> > > > -----
> > > > DISCUSS:
> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> > > > -----
> > > >=20
> > > > Two very much discussing discusses. However, I would really
> > like to
> > > > hear the
> > > > answer to these concerns before clearing.
> > > >=20
> > > > 1. Section 4.3: Is the HMAC field size of 16 bytes hard coded?
> > If
> > > > there ever
> > > > would exist a need to deploy another integrity solution, even
> > if
> > > > the actual
> > > > algorithm used to construct the tag can be agreed by the
> > > > management, there
> > > > appear to exist a hard look in to use 16-byte tags. Have this
> > issue
> > > > been
> > > > considered?
> > >=20
> > > GIM>> Indeed, this specification defines the use of only one
> > > algorithm and only 16 bytes-long HMAC field. Your question
> > prompted
> > > the discussion among authors and we believe that in a future
> > > specification it would be feasible to extend supporting a number
> > of
> > > algorithms and different lengths of HMAC field both being defined
> > > through extension to STAMP YANG data model.
> >=20
> > So if I understand this (taking a discussion with Mirja about
> > keeping
> > things as simple as possible) the solution is to basically is when
> > need
> > arises define a new STAMP version, and then use YANG to coordinate
> > which version is used for the measurement. If that is a correct re-
> > interpretation of your response then I am fine with it.=20
>=20
> GIM2>> The direction from the WG was to keep the base specification
> as simple  as possible (and that was the reason to split TLV
> extensions into a separate document).=20

Yes, understood.=20

> > > >         2. Section 6:
> > > >         The possible impact of the
> > > >    STAMP test packets on the network MUST be thoroughly
> > analyzed,
> > > > and
> > > >    the use of STAMP for each case MUST be agreed by all users
> > on
> > > > the
> > > >    network before starting the STAMP test session.
> > > >=20
> > > >         I assume some potential issues are know, shouldn't they
> > > > really be
> > > >         listed here in the security consideration to further
> > > > motivate why the
> > > >         analysis needs to happen.
> > >=20
> > > GIM>> This is in reference to using numbers from the User range
> > as
> > > the destination port number. Would adding the reference to the
> > case
> > > of using the port numbers from the User range address your
> > concern?
> > > Or rather refer to Section 4, as it includes more discussion
> > (see=20
> > > below)?=20
> >=20
> > Okay, I don't really care where the discussion happens. But I don't
> > find any real discussion and listing of the concerns with using
> > user or
> > dynamic ports for STAMP Sessions? With the formulation you use, I
> > would
> > expect at least some list of potential concerns that needs to be
> > evaluated in the context of the particular usage of STAMP.=20
>=20
> GIM2>> Per Berry's suggestion, I'm adding a new section, Operational
> Considerations, to list possible scenarios and possible issues with
> using destination ports from the User range and from the Dynamic
> range. I hope to finish it in a couple days. Will share on this
> discussion thread promptly.=20

Great!

Looking forward to review it when written.=20

> > > >=20
> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> > > > -----
> > > > COMMENT:
> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> > > > -----
> > > >=20
> > > >         1. Section 4:
> > > >         Before using numbers from the User Ports range, the
> > > > possible impact
> > > >    on the network MUST be carefully studied and agreed by all
> > users
> > > > of
> > > >    the network.
> > > >=20
> > > >         Is the above sentence missing to list an important
> > > > assumption? Is the
> > > >         assumption that by using the registred destination port
> > an
> > > > operator
> > > >         that sees to much STAMP traffic can simply filter it
> > out
> > > > and that way
> > > >         deal with the traffic, something which is not possible
> > when
> > > > using an
> > > >         locally decided port? If that is the case, this
> > assumption
> > > > should
> > > >         probably be noted.
> > >=20
> > > GIM>> That is a very good point but our primary motivation for
> > this
> > > cautionary note (or strong warning) was that by allowing STAMP to
> > use
> > > port numbers from the User range, ports that may be already
> > assigned
> > > to protocols, creates a DDOS attack vector. As for the filtering
> > > STAMP traffic out, I think that even if the destination port is
> > one
> > > from the Dynamic range, for a relatively long test session it can
> > be
> > > filtered out.
> >=20
> > So if that is the only? concern then write it out. I would expect
> > that
> > the higher layer management protocol that creates a measurement
> > session
> > to actually ensure that the STAMP endpoint actually have the port
> > numbers they attempt to use. Isn't that a reasonable requirement to
> > put
> > on the solution?=20
>=20
> GIM2>> Agree with your suggestion. Will put in the new section. If
> STAMP is managed by a centralized system, whether it is proprietary
> OSS/BSS or an orchestrator that uses YANG data models, the system
> will be able to coordinate selection of port numbers on the Session-
> Sender and Session-Reflector. But some systems may use EMS or CLI and
> that is where human coordination may be required.=20


Good, then likely this is resolved when your text is ready.=20

> > My thinking with the filtering out concern was that in cases where
> > one
> > runs STAMP measurement sessions, if the measurement interfer with
> > critical traffic an action for an on-path node that can actually
> > identify the STAMP traffic was to filer it out. And that may be
> > considered trivial when the well known port is used, but if a user
> > or
> > dynamic port is used, then that requries a managment system to
> > provide
> > the on-path node with the necessary information, i.e. 3/5 tuple for
> > the
> > STAMP flows.=20
>=20
> GIM2>> I think that a transit node can identify a flow as the STAMP
> flow only if the destination port is the STAMP default UDP
> destination port number, 862. In case a STAMP session has the
> destination port number as one of port numbers from the User range,
> IP/UDP encapsulation of STAMP packets would be indistinguishable from
> packets originated by the application that is assigned that port
> number. Thus, filtering out on only destination port number may
> negatively affect service, legitimate service. Because of that, I
> think that filtering will have to use more information. On the other
> hand, if the test flow does not exceed agreed rate, then any
> filtering test packets out, in my opinion, is counter-productive, as
> it hides some issues in the networks rather than letting the OAM
> tools to expose them, localize, and characterize.

Ok. This was primarily to understand if this was in scope or not. But
it sounds like this is not really in scope for how to manage it.=20

> >=20
> > > >         2. Section 3 and 4, and 4.1.1: What is a STAMP Session?
> > Is
> > > > that a
> > > >         measurment session between one specific and sender and
> > a
> > > > specific
> > > >         reflector for a time duration?  The defenition of the
> > > > session do matter
> > > >         if one intended to enable a single sender to use
> > multiple
> > > > reflectors,
> > > >         and if that can be a single session or always multiple
> > > > indepdendent
> > > >         ones. Would appreciate a definition what a session is.
> > If
> > > > it is
> > > >         possible to send STAMP traffic using a multicast or
> > > > broadcast address
> > > >         should be made explicit.
> > >=20
> > > GIM>> Your interpretation is correct, STAMP session is implicitly
> > > defined as p2p. And that is what reflected in the STAMP YANG
> > model.
> > > Would the following text make it clearer:
> > > NEW TEXT:
> > >    In this document, a measurement session also referred to as
> > >    STAMP session, is the session between one specific Session-
> > Sender
> > > and
> > >    one particular Session-Reflector for a time duration.
> >=20
> > Yes, please include that definition. Question would it be clearer
> > to
> > replace ".. is the session betweeen .." with ".. is the bi-
> > directional
> > packet flows between .."?=20
>=20
> GIM2>> I agree, defining a session as a session makes is somewhat
> repetitive. Thank you.=20
> Below is the updated text:
>    In this document, a measurement session also referred to as
>    STAMP session, is the bi-directional packet flow between one
> specific
>    Session-Sender and one particular Session-Reflector for a time
>    duration.

Looks good to me.=20

> >=20
> > > >         3.  Section 4.1.1.:
> > > >         Timestamp is eight octets long field.  STAMP node MUST
> > > > support
> > > >       Network Time Protocol (NTP) version 4 64-bit timestamp
> > format
> > > >       [RFC5905], the format used in [RFC5357].  STAMP node MAY
> > > > support
> > > >       IEEE 1588v2 Precision Time Protocol truncated 64-bit
> > > > timestamp
> > > >       format [IEEE.1588.2008], the format used in [RFC8186].
> > > >=20
> > > >         Is the clock source here something that may be relevant
> > or
> > > > simply
> > > >         information the management functions should capture. I
> > > > think there is a
> > > >         similar issue to that of RTP faced when it comes to
> > > > understand what the
> > > >         timestamp actually represent and thus be used
> > correctly.
> > > > RTP clock
> > > >         source specification is RFC 7273
> > > >         (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7273/)
> > >=20
> > > GIM>> NTP and PTP encodings have a different interpretation of
> > the
> > > Fraction field of the Timestamp field. In my experience, PTP
> > format
> > > is native for the data plane, while NTP is more used at the
> > control
> > > plane. Original extension to TWAMP has been described in RFC
> > 8186.
> >=20
> > I think you missunderstood. When I talk about clock source, I am
> > actually referring to identifying the particular clock that the
> > node
> > use to derive the included timestamp from.=20
> >=20
> > And likely this is a moot point in this document where the clock
> > source
> > information belongs in the management layer, e.g. in the YANG data
> > model.=20
>=20
> GIM2>> Timestamp Information TLV (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv)
> provides information about the clock synchronization protocol and the
> method by wich the timestamp has been acquired at a Session-
> Reflector. We may extend it to list the name/locatior of the master
> clock.

Ok. sounds reasonable.=20

> >=20
> > > >         4. Section 4.1:
> > > >            Because STAMP supports symmetrical test packets,
> > STAMP
> > > > Session-Sender
> > > >    packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated
> > mode,
> > > > see
> > > >    Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see
> > Figure
> > > > 4.
> > > >=20
> > > >         The above text implies some potential for UDP payload
> > size
> > > > variability
> > > >         for the STAMP packets. However, the actual definition
> > > > appear to have
> > > >         fixed sizes. Can you please clarify if I have missed
> > > > something that
> > > >         enables the STAMP packet to have variable size?
> > >=20
> > > GIM>> I think that the text can be improved by characterizing the
> > > listed sizes as "base". The variable length of a test packet in
> > STAMP
> > > is supported by using Extra Padding TLV defined in draft-ietf-
> > ippm-
> > > stamp-option-tlv. Below is the proposed update:
> > > OLD TEXT:
> > >    Because STAMP supports symmetrical test packets, STAMP
> > Session-
> > > Sender
> > >    packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated
> > mode,
> > > see
> > >    Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see Figure
> > 4.
> > > NEW TEXT:
> > >    STAMP supports symmetrical test packets.  The base STAMP
> > Session-
> > >    Sender packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in
> > unauthenticated
> > >    mode, see Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode,
> > see
> > >    Figure 4.  The variable length of a test packet in STAMP is
> > > supported
> > >    by using Extra Padding TLV defined in
> > >    [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv].
> > >=20
> > > With the new reference, should I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv be
> > > moved to the Normative References list or may remain in the
> > > Informative list?
> >=20
> > From my perspective, the fact that optional TLV may occur following
> > the
> > base headers appears quite important. Here comes a question of
> > intention form the WG. Is it intended that one can have STAMP
> > endpoints
> > that do not even support receiving packets larger than the base?=20
> > In other words there will be two main versions already now, one
> > that
> > supports some TLV and can at least handle the TLV skip forward and
> > ignore the content and one that will throw a fit over the TLVs? If
> > that
> > is not the intention I think the fact that TLV's may occur should
> > be
> > moved into this specification and have it as a normative reference.
>=20
> GIM2>> Will move the reference to the Normative section. With TLV
> being normative, I'd expect that the intelligent implementation of
> this draft, of the base STAMP specification, will accept any valid
> STAMP packet though not process extensions. But the base STAMP
> Session-Reflector will return the base reflected packet. =20

I think that is very reasonable approach. Are you close to complete the
stamp-option-tlv document, or will the missref cause any issue?=20

> > I guess the answer is that you have backwards comaptibility reasons
> > for
> > not allowing TLVs at all in some sessions, or?=20
>=20
> GIM2>> Yes, that and the principle "keep it simple".=20

Thanks,

To me it looks like with some text changes all my issues are addressed.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund=20


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287
Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------



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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 11:55:47 -0700
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To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>, draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org,  6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/VYGKXy_iwnVHbkT_uUGIRfzUPjg>
Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
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--00000000000017716c0592ec814f
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Dear Authors, et al.,
I have a number of questions on this draft and hope you'll find time to
clarify some aspects of iOAM encapsulation in IPv6 EHs:

   - format of both Hop-by-Hop Options header and Destination Options
   header, as defined in RFC 8200, allow the length of Options field in the
   header to be no more than 2K - 2 octets. I consider that to be an important
   limitation of the proposed encapsulation method but I don't find that being
   discussed in the document.
   - Section 3 of your draft defines iOAM Option encapsulation format. How
   this encapsulation relates to the encapsulation of IPv6 options for the
   Hop-by-Hop Options header and Destination Options header?
   - Section 4.2 in RFC 8200 defines four types of actions to be associated
   with the option. Which of these and in what scenarios may be used to carry
   iOAM information in IPv6 packet?
   - Also, in Section 4.2 defined on-bit long flag in the Option Type field
   to indicate whether option data may change en route. How this flag will be
   used when iOAM option data encapsulated in IPv6 EHs?
   - Further, the question of choosing a padding option - Pad1 or PadN?
   Which these two to be used for iOAM data in IPv6 EHs?

With this number of technical issues being underspecified, I don't support
the adoption of the draft by IPPM WG. And I feel that it would be more
appropriate to ask 6man WG to host this work.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 9:11 AM Tommy Pauly <tpauly=
40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> Hello IPPM,
>
> This email starts a working group adoption call for
> draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options. This document defines the IPv6
> option encapsulation for IOAM data. This document was discussed with the
> 6man WG, which advised that the work be done in ippm, with review by 6man.
>
> The documents are available here:
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options/
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options-02
>
> Please reply to this email by Wednesday, September 25, with your input on
> whether or not the WG should adopt this document.
>
> Best,
> Tommy (as IPPM co-chair)
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>

--00000000000017716c0592ec814f
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear Authors, et al.,<div>I have a number of questions on =
this draft and hope you&#39;ll find time to clarify some aspects of iOAM en=
capsulation in IPv6 EHs:</div><div><ul><li>format of both Hop-by-Hop Option=
s header and Destination Options header, as defined in RFC 8200, allow the =
length of Options field in the header to be no more than 2K - 2 octets. I c=
onsider that to be an important limitation of the proposed encapsulation me=
thod but I don&#39;t find that being discussed in the document.</li><li>Sec=
tion 3 of your draft defines iOAM Option encapsulation=C2=A0format. How thi=
s encapsulation relates to the encapsulation of IPv6 options for the Hop-by=
-Hop Options header and Destination Options header?</li><li>Section 4.2 in =
RFC 8200 defines four types of actions to be associated with the option. Wh=
ich of these and in what scenarios may be used to carry iOAM information in=
 IPv6 packet?</li><li>Also, in Section 4.2 defined on-bit long flag in the =
Option Type field to indicate whether option data may change en route. How =
this flag will be used when iOAM option data encapsulated in IPv6 EHs?</li>=
<li>Further, the question of choosing a padding option - Pad1 or PadN? Whic=
h these two to be used for iOAM data in IPv6 EHs?</li></ul><div>With this n=
umber of technical issues being underspecified, I don&#39;t support the ado=
ption of the draft by IPPM WG. And I feel that it would be more appropriate=
 to ask 6man WG to host this work.</div></div><div><br></div><div>Regards,<=
/div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" c=
lass=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 9:11 AM Tommy Pauly &lt;tpauly=
=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=
Hello IPPM,<br>
<br>
This email starts a working group adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6ma=
n-ioam-ipv6-options. This document defines the IPv6 option encapsulation fo=
r IOAM data. This document was discussed with the 6man WG, which advised th=
at the work be done in ippm, with review by 6man.<br>
<br>
The documents are available here:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-i=
pv6-options/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf=
.org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options/</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-o=
ptions-02" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options-02</a><br>
<br>
Please reply to this email by Wednesday, September 25, with your input on w=
hether or not the WG should adopt this document.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Tommy (as IPPM co-chair)<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
ippm mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ippm@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--00000000000017716c0592ec814f--


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From: Matt Mathis <mattmathis@google.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 14:17:58 -0700
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To: "ALFRED C (AL)" <acm@research.att.com>, Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de
Cc: "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>
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Subject: [ippm] Fwd: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
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Ok, moving the thread to IPPM

Some background, we (Measurement Lab) are testing a new transport (TCP)
performance measurement tool, based on BBR-TCP.   I'm not ready to talk
about results yet (well ok, it looks pretty good).    (BTW the BBR
algorithm just happens to resemble the algorithm described
in draft-morton-ippm-capcity-metric-method-00.)

Anyhow we noticed some interesting performance features for number of ISPs
in the US and Europe and I wanted to get some input for how these cases
should be treated.

One data point, a single trace saw ~94.5 Mbit/s for ~4 seconds,
fluctuating performance ~75 Mb/s for ~1 second and then stable
performance at ~83Mb/s for the rest of the 10 second test.    If I were to
guess this is probably a policer (shaper?) with a 1 MB token bucket and
a ~83Mb/s token rate (these numbers are not corrected for header overheads,
which actually matter with this tool).  What is weird about it is that
different ingress interfaces to the ISP (peers or serving locations)
exhibit different parameters.

Now the IPPM measurement question:   Is the bulk transport capacity of this
link ~94.5 Mbit/s or ~83Mb/s?   Justify your answer....?

Thanks,
--MM--
The best way to predict the future is to create it.  - Alan Kay

We must not tolerate intolerance;
       however our response must be carefully measured:
            too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of
control;
            too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.

Forwarded Conversation
Subject: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
------------------------

From: Matt Mathis <mattmathis@google.com>
Date: Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 8:55 AM
To: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com>


We are seeing shapers  with huge bucket sizes, perhaps as larger or larger
than 100 MB.

These are prohibitive to test by default, but can have a huge impact in
some common situations.  E.g. downloading software updates.

An unconditional pass is not good, because some buckets are small.  What
counts as large enough to be ok, and what "derating" is ok?

Thanks,
--MM--
The best way to predict the future is to create it.  - Alan Kay

We must not tolerate intolerance;
       however our response must be carefully measured:
            too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of
control;
            too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.


----------
From: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com>
Date: Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 5:08 AM
To: Matt Mathis <mattmathis@google.com>
Cc: CIAVATTONE, LEN <lc9892@att.com>, Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <
Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>


Hi Matt, currently cruising between Crete and Malta,

with about 7 days of vacation remaining =E2=80=93 Adding my friend Len.

You know R=C3=BCdiger. It appears I=E2=80=99ve forgotten how to typs in 2 w=
eeks

given the number of typos I=E2=80=99ve fixed so far...



We=E2=80=99ve seen big buffers on a basic DOCSIS cable service (downlink >2=
 sec)

but,

  we have 1-way delay variation or RTT variation limits

  when searching for the max rate, that don=E2=80=99t many packets

  queue in the buffer



  we want the status messages that result in rate adjustment to return

 in a reasonable amount of time (50ms + RTT)



  we usually search for 10 seconds, but if we go back and test with

  a fixed rate, we can see the buffer growing if the rate is too high.



  There will eventually be a discussion on the thresholds we use

  in the search // load rate control algorithm. The copy of

  Y.1540 I sent you has a simple one, we moved beyond that now

  (see the slides I didn=E2=80=99t get to present at IETF).



  There is value in having some of this discussion on IPPM-list,

  so we get some **agenda time at IETF-106**



We measure rate and performance, with some performance limits

built-in.  Pass/Fail is another step, de-rating too (made sense

with MBM =E2=80=9Ctarget_rate=E2=80=9D).



Al


----------
From: <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
Date: Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 12:05 AM
To: <acm@research.att.com>
Cc: <lc9892@att.com>, <mattmathis@google.com>


Hi Al,



thanks for keeping me involved. I don=E2=80=99t have a precise answer and d=
oubt,
that there will be a single universal truth.



If the aim is only to determine the IP bandwidth of an access, then we
aren=E2=80=99t interested in filling a buffer. Buffering events may occur, =
some of
which are useful and to be expected, whereas others are not desired:



   - Sender shaping behavior may matter (is traffic at the source CBR or is
   it bursty)
   - Random collisions should be tolerated at the access whose bandwidth is
   to be measured.
   - Limiting packet drop due to buffer overflow is a design aim or an
   important part of the algorithm, I think.
   - Shared media might create bursts. I=E2=80=99m not an expert in the are=
a, but
   there=E2=80=99s an =E2=80=9Cis bandwidth available=E2=80=9D check in som=
e cases between a central
   sender using a shared medium and the receivers connected. WiFi and may b=
e
   other wireless equipment buffers packets also to optimize wireless resou=
rce
   optimization.
   - It might be an idea to mark some flows by ECN, once there=E2=80=99s a =
guess on
   a sending bitrate when to expect no or very little packet drop. Today, t=
his
   is experimental. CE marks by an ECN capable device should be expected
   roughly once queuing starts.



Practically, the set-up should be configurable with commodity hard- and
software and all metrics should be measurable at the receiver. Burstiness
of traffic and a distinction between queuing events which are to be
expected and (undesired) queue build up are the events to be distinguished.
I hope that can be done with commodity hard- and software. I at least am
not able to write down a simple metric distinguishing queues to be expected
from (undesired) queue build up causing congestion. The hard- and software
to be used should be part of the solution, not part of the problem (bursty
source traffic and timestamps with insufficient accuracy to detect queues
are what I=E2=80=99d like to avoid).



I=E2=80=99d suggest to move discussion to the list.



Regards,



R=C3=BCdiger


----------
From: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com>
Date: Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 7:01 AM
To: Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
Cc: CIAVATTONE, LEN <lc9892@att.com>, mattmathis@google.com <
mattmathis@google.com>


I=E2=80=99m catching-up with this thread again, but before I reply:



*** Any objection to moving this discussion to IPPM-list ?? ***



@Matt =E2=80=93 this is a question to you at this point...



thanks,

Al



*From:* Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de [mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de]
*Sent:* Monday, August 26, 2019 3:05 AM
*To:* MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com>
*Cc:* CIAVATTONE, LEN <lc9892@att.com>; mattmathis@google.com
*Subject:* AW: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?



Hi Al,



thanks for keeping me involved. I don=E2=80=99t have a precise answer and d=
oubt,
that there will be a single universal truth.



If the aim is only to determine the IP bandwidth of an access, then we
aren=E2=80=99t interested in filling a buffer. Buffering events may occur, =
some of
which are useful and to be expected, whereas others are not desired:



-        Sender shaping behavior may matter (is traffic at the source CBR
or is it bursty)

-        Random collisions should be tolerated at the access whose
bandwidth is to be measured.

-        Limiting packet drop due to buffer overflow is a design aim or an
important part of the algorithm, I think.

-        Shared media might create bursts. I=E2=80=99m not an expert in the=
 area,
but there=E2=80=99s an =E2=80=9Cis bandwidth available=E2=80=9D check in so=
me cases between a
central sender using a shared medium and the receivers connected. WiFi and
may be other wireless equipment buffers packets also to optimize wireless
resource optimization.

-        It might be an idea to mark some flows by ECN, once there=E2=80=99=
s a
guess on a sending bitrate when to expect no or very little packet drop.
Today, this is experimental. CE marks by an ECN capable device should be
expected roughly once queuing starts.

--000000000000a098970592ee7d96
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Ok, moving the thread to IPPM<div><br></div><div>Some back=
ground, we (Measurement=C2=A0Lab) are testing a new transport (TCP) perform=
ance measurement tool, based on BBR-TCP.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I&#39;m not ready to t=
alk about results yet (well ok, it looks pretty good).=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (BTW th=
e BBR algorithm just happens to resemble the algorithm=C2=A0described in=C2=
=A0draft-morton-ippm-capcity-metric-method-00.)</div><div><br></div><div>An=
yhow=C2=A0we noticed some interesting performance features for number of IS=
Ps in the US and Europe and I wanted to get some input for how these cases =
should be treated.</div><div><br></div><div>One data point, a single trace =
saw ~94.5 Mbit/s for ~4 seconds, fluctuating=C2=A0performance ~75 Mb/s for =
~1 second and then stable performance=C2=A0at ~83Mb/s for the rest of the 1=
0 second test.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If I were to guess this is probably a policer (=
shaper?) with a 1 MB token bucket and a=C2=A0~83Mb/s token rate (these numb=
ers are not corrected for header overheads, which actually matter with this=
 tool).=C2=A0 What is weird about it is that different ingress interfaces t=
o the ISP (peers or serving=C2=A0locations) exhibit different parameters.=
=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Now the IPPM measurement question:=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0Is the bulk transport capacity of this link=C2=A0~94.5 Mbit/s or=
=C2=A0~83Mb/s?=C2=A0 =C2=A0Justify your answer....?</div><div><br></div><di=
v><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_s=
ignature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
>Thanks,</div>--MM--<br>The best way to predict the future is to create it.=
 =C2=A0- Alan Kay<br><br>We must not tolerate intolerance;</div><div dir=3D=
"ltr">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0however our response must be carefully mea=
sured:=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too strong=
 would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of control;</div><div>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too weak risks being mistaken for tacit=
 approval.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size:large;font-weight:bold">F=
orwarded Conversation</span><br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: H=
ow should capacity measurement interact with shaping?</span><br>-----------=
-------------<br></div><br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr" style=3D"c=
olor:#888">From: <strong class=3D"gmail_sendername" dir=3D"auto">Matt Mathi=
s</strong> <span dir=3D"auto">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.com">=
mattmathis@google.com</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 8:55 AM<=
br>To: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@research.att.com">ac=
m@research.att.com</a>&gt;<br></div><br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">We are seeing =
shapers=C2=A0 with huge bucket sizes, perhaps as larger or larger than 100 =
MB.<div><br></div><div>These are prohibitive to test by default, but can ha=
ve a huge impact in some common situations.=C2=A0 E.g. downloading software=
 updates.</div><div><br></div><div>An unconditional pass is not good, becau=
se some buckets are small.=C2=A0 What counts as large enough to be ok, and =
what &quot;derating&quot; is ok?</div><div><br clear=3D"all"><div><div dir=
=3D"ltr" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Thanks,</div>--MM--<br>The best way to =
predict the future is to create it. =C2=A0- Alan Kay<br><br>We must not tol=
erate intolerance;</div><div dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0however=
 our response must be carefully measured:=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too strong would be hypocritical and risks spirali=
ng out of control;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too =
weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.</div></div></div></div></div>=
</div></div></div></div>
<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr" style=3D"color:#888">--------=
--<br>From: <strong class=3D"gmail_sendername" dir=3D"auto">MORTON, ALFRED =
C (AL)</strong> <span dir=3D"auto">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@research.att.c=
om">acm@research.att.com</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 5:08 =
AM<br>To: Matt Mathis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.com">mattmath=
is@google.com</a>&gt;<br>Cc: CIAVATTONE, LEN &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lc9892@a=
tt.com">lc9892@att.com</a>&gt;, <a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de"=
>Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.d=
e">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a>&gt;<br></div><br><br>





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_6148495747077881543WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Hi Matt, currently cruising between Crete and =
Malta,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">with about 7 days of vacation remaining =E2=80=
=93 Adding my friend Len.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">You know R=C3=BCdiger. It appears I=E2=80=99ve=
 forgotten how to typs in 2 weeks<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">given the number of typos I=E2=80=99ve fixed s=
o far...<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">We=E2=80=99ve seen big buffers on a basic DOCS=
IS cable service (downlink &gt;2 sec)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">but,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0 we have 1-way delay variation or RTT va=
riation limits<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0 when searching for the max rate, that d=
on=E2=80=99t many packets
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0queue in the buffer<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0 we want the status messages that result=
 in rate adjustment to return<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0in a reasonable amount of time (50ms + R=
TT)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0 we usually search for 10 seconds, but i=
f we go back and test with
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0a fixed rate, we can see the buffe=
r growing if the rate is too high.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0 There will eventually be a discussion o=
n the thresholds we use<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0 in the search // load rate control algo=
rithm. The copy of
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0Y.1540 I sent you has a simple one=
, we moved beyond that now<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0 (see the slides I didn=E2=80=99t get to=
 present at IETF).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0 There is value in having some of this d=
iscussion on IPPM-list,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0 so we get some *<b>agenda time at IETF-=
106</b>*
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">We measure rate and performance, with some per=
formance limits<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">built-in.=C2=A0 Pass/Fail is another step, de-=
rating too (made sense
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">with MBM =E2=80=9Ctarget_rate=E2=80=9D).<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Al<u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
</div>

<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr" style=3D"color:#888">--------=
--<br>From: <span dir=3D"auto">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.=
de">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 1=
2:05 AM<br>To:  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@research.att.com">acm@research.at=
t.com</a>&gt;<br>Cc:  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lc9892@att.com">lc9892@att.com<=
/a>&gt;,  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.com">mattmathis@google.co=
m</a>&gt;<br></div><br><br>





<div lang=3D"DE" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_3104862068462157283WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Hi Al,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">thanks for keeping me involved. I do=
n=E2=80=99t have a precise answer and doubt, that there will be a single un=
iversal truth.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">If the aim is only to determine the =
IP bandwidth of an access, then we aren=E2=80=99t interested in filling a b=
uffer. Buffering events may occur,
 some of which are useful and to be expected, whereas others are not desire=
d:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"m_3104862068462157283MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0c=
m"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri=
&quot;,sans-serif">Sender shaping behavior may matter (is traffic at the so=
urce CBR or is it bursty)<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"m_310486206=
8462157283MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Rando=
m collisions should be tolerated at the access whose bandwidth is to be
 measured.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"m_3104862068462157283MsoLi=
stParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Limiting packet drop=
 due to buffer overflow is a design aim or an important
 part of the algorithm, I think.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"m_31=
04862068462157283MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"=
EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif=
">Shared media might create bursts. I=E2=80=99m not an expert in the area, =
but there=E2=80=99s
 an =E2=80=9Cis bandwidth available=E2=80=9D check in some cases between a =
central sender using a shared medium and the receivers connected. WiFi and =
may be other wireless equipment buffers packets also to optimize wireless r=
esource optimization.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"m_3104862068462=
157283MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">It might =
be an idea to mark some flows by ECN, once there=E2=80=99s a guess on a sen=
ding
 bitrate when to expect no or very little packet drop. Today, this is exper=
imental. CE marks by an ECN capable device should be expected roughly once =
queuing starts.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Practically, the set-up should be co=
nfigurable with commodity hard- and software and all metrics should be meas=
urable at the receiver.
 Burstiness of traffic and a distinction between queuing events which are t=
o be expected and (undesired) queue build up are the events to be distingui=
shed. I hope that can be done with commodity hard- and software. I at least=
 am not able to write down a simple
 metric distinguishing queues to be expected from (undesired) queue build u=
p causing congestion. The hard- and software to be used should be part of t=
he solution, not part of the problem (bursty source traffic and timestamps =
with insufficient accuracy to detect
 queues are what I=E2=80=99d like to avoid).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">I=E2=80=99d suggest to move discussi=
on to the list.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">R=C3=BCdiger<u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
</div>

<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr" style=3D"color:#888">--------=
--<br>From: <strong class=3D"gmail_sendername" dir=3D"auto">MORTON, ALFRED =
C (AL)</strong> <span dir=3D"auto">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@research.att.c=
om">acm@research.att.com</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 7:01 =
AM<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de">Ruediger.Geib@telekom=
.de</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de">Ruediger.Geib@telek=
om.de</a>&gt;<br>Cc: CIAVATTONE, LEN &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lc9892@att.com">=
lc9892@att.com</a>&gt;, <a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.com">mattmathis=
@google.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.com">mattmathis@goo=
gle.com</a>&gt;<br></div><br><br>





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_-7231308475333677527WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">I=E2=80=99m catching-up with this thread again=
, but before I reply:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">*** Any objection to moving this discussion to=
 IPPM-list ?? ***<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">@Matt =E2=80=93 this is a question to you at t=
his point...<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">thanks,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;color:black">Al<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-7231308475333677527__MailEndCompose"><=
span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;color:bl=
ack"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> <a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Gei=
b@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a> [mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">Ruediger.Geib@telek=
om.de</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 26, 2019 3:05 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@research.att.com=
" target=3D"_blank">acm@research.att.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> CIAVATTONE, LEN &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lc9892@att.com" target=3D"=
_blank">lc9892@att.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">mattmathis@google.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> AW: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">Hi Al,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">thanks for keeping me involved. I don=E2=80=99t hav=
e a precise answer and doubt, that there will be a single universal truth.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif">If the aim is only to determine the IP bandwidth of=
 an access, then we aren=E2=80=99t interested in filling a buffer. Bufferin=
g events may occur, some of which are useful and to be
 expected, whereas others are not desired:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif"><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Sender shaping behavior may matter (is traffic=
 at the source CBR or is it bursty)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif"><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Random collisions should be tolerated at the a=
ccess whose bandwidth is to be measured.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif"><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Limiting packet drop due to buffer overflow is=
 a design aim or an important part of the algorithm, I think.<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif"><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Shared media might create bursts. I=E2=80=99m =
not an expert in the area, but there=E2=80=99s an =E2=80=9Cis bandwidth ava=
ilable=E2=80=9D check in some cases between a central sender using a shared
 medium and the receivers connected. WiFi and may be other wireless equipme=
nt buffers packets also to optimize wireless resource optimization.<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans=
-serif"><span>-<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span></span></span><u></u><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">It might be an idea to mark some flows by ECN,=
 once there=E2=80=99s a guess on a sending bitrate when to expect no or ver=
y little packet drop. Today, this is experimental.
 CE marks by an ECN capable device should be expected roughly once queuing =
starts.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
</div>
</div>

<br><br></div></div></div>

--000000000000a098970592ee7d96--


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From: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <acm@research.att.com>
To: Matt Mathis <mattmathis@google.com>, "Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
CC: "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>, "CIAVATTONE, LEN" <lc9892@att.com>
Thread-Topic: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
Thread-Index: AQHVU4HrkoUGktYwE0yJQr8LfUwZ06b/aQHwgAQxteCAL6Jm4IAAvlkA//++dPA=
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Subject: Re: [ippm] How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
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From: Matt Mathis <mattmathis@google.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 18:43:19 -0700
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Subject: Re: [ippm] How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
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I am actually more interested in the philosophical questions about how this
should be reported, and what should the language be about non-stationary
available capacity.   One intersecting issue: BBR converges on both the
initial and final rate in under 2 seconds (this was a long path, so startup
took more than a second).   Do users want a quick (and relatively cheap)
test that takes 2 seconds or a longer test that is more likely to discover
the token bucket?  How long?  If we want to call them different names, what
should they be?

On the pure technical issues: BBR is still quite a moving target.   I have
a paper in draft that will shed some light on this.  It is due to be
unembargoed sometime in October.
BBRv1 (released slightly after the cacm paper you mention) measures the
max_BW every 8 RTT.  BBRv2 measures the max_BW on a sliding schedule that
loosely matches CUBIC.  (In both, min_RTT is measured every 10 seconds, in
the absence of organic low RTT samples).   BBRv2 uses additional signals
and does a much better job of avoiding overshoot at the startup.

In any case the best (most stable) BBR based metric seems to be
delta(snd.una)/elapsed_time, which is the progress as seen by upper
layers.  If you look at short time slices (we happen to be using 0.25
seconds) you see a mostly crisp square wave.  If you average from the
beginning of the connection to now, the peak rate happens at the moment the
bucket runs out of tokens, and falls towards the toke rate after that.

Thanks,
--MM--
The best way to predict the future is to create it.  - Alan Kay

We must not tolerate intolerance;
       however our response must be carefully measured:
            too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of
control;
            too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.


On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 3:35 PM MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com=
>
wrote:

> Thanks Matt!  This is an interesting trace to consider,
>
> and an important discussion to share with the group.
>
>
>
> When I look at the equation for BBR:
>
>
> https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2017/2/212428-bbr-congestion-based-congest=
ion-control/fulltext
>
>
>
> both BBR and Maximum IP-layer Capacity Metric seek the
>
> Max over some time interval. The window seems smaller for
>
> BBR: 6 to 10 RTTs, where we=E2=80=99ve been using parameters that
>
> result in a rate measurement once a second and take the max
>
> of the 10 one-second measurements.
>
>
>
> We=E2=80=99ve also evaluate several performance metrics when
>
> adjusting load, and that determines how high the sending
>
> rate will go (based on feedback from the receiver).
>
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-morton-ippm-capcity-metric-method-00#se=
ction-4.3
>
>
>
> So, it seems that the MAX delivered rate for the 10 second test,  we
>
> can all see is 94.5 Mbps. This rate was sustained for more
>
> than a trivial amount of time, too. But if you are concerned that this
>
> rate was somehow inflated by a large buffer and a large
>
> burst tolerance in the shaper =E2=80=93 that=E2=80=99s where the addition=
al
>
> metrics and slightly different sending rate control
>
> that we described in the draft (and the slides) might help.
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-ippm-metric=
s-and-methods-for-ip-capacity-00
>
>
>
> IOW, it might well be that Max IP Capacity, measured as we designed
>
> and parameterized it, measures 83 Mbps for this path
>
> (assuming the 94.5 is the result of big overshoot at sender, and the
>
> fluctuating performance afterward seems to support that).
>
>
>
> When I was looking for background on BBR, I saw a paper comparing
>
> BBR and CUBIC during drive tests.
>
> http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~claypool/papers/driving-bbr/
>
> One pair of plots seemed to indicate that BBR sent lots of Bytes
>
> early-on, and grew the RTT pretty high before settling down
>
> (Figure 5, a & b).
>
> This looks a bit like the case you described below,
>
> except 94.5 Mbps is a Received Rate =E2=80=93 we don=E2=80=99t know
>
> what came out of the network, just what went in and filled
>
> a buffer before crashing down in the drive test.
>
>
>
> So, I think I did more investigation than justification
>
> for my answers, but I conclude the parameters like the
>
> individual measurement intervals and overall time interval
>
> from which the Max is drawn, plus the rate control algorithm
>
> itself, play a big role here.
>
>
>
> regards,
>
> Al
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Matt Mathis [mailto:mattmathis@google.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 5:18 PM
> *To:* MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com>;
> Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de
> *Cc:* ippm@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Fwd: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
>
>
>
> Ok, moving the thread to IPPM
>
>
>
> Some background, we (Measurement Lab) are testing a new transport (TCP)
> performance measurement tool, based on BBR-TCP.   I'm not ready to talk
> about results yet (well ok, it looks pretty good).    (BTW the BBR
> algorithm just happens to resemble the algorithm described
> in draft-morton-ippm-capcity-metric-method-00.)
>
>
>
> Anyhow we noticed some interesting performance features for number of ISP=
s
> in the US and Europe and I wanted to get some input for how these cases
> should be treated.
>
>
>
> One data point, a single trace saw ~94.5 Mbit/s for ~4 seconds,
> fluctuating performance ~75 Mb/s for ~1 second and then stable
> performance at ~83Mb/s for the rest of the 10 second test.    If I were t=
o
> guess this is probably a policer (shaper?) with a 1 MB token bucket and
> a ~83Mb/s token rate (these numbers are not corrected for header overhead=
s,
> which actually matter with this tool).  What is weird about it is that
> different ingress interfaces to the ISP (peers or serving locations)
> exhibit different parameters.
>
>
>
> Now the IPPM measurement question:   Is the bulk transport capacity of
> this link ~94.5 Mbit/s or ~83Mb/s?   Justify your answer....?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> --MM--
> The best way to predict the future is to create it.  - Alan Kay
>
> We must not tolerate intolerance;
>
>        however our response must be carefully measured:
>
>             too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of
> control;
>
>             too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.
>
>
>
> *Forwarded Conversation*
> *Subject: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?*
> ------------------------
>
>
>
> From: *Matt Mathis* <mattmathis@google.com>
> Date: Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 8:55 AM
> To: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com>
>
>
>
> We are seeing shapers  with huge bucket sizes, perhaps as larger or large=
r
> than 100 MB.
>
>
>
> These are prohibitive to test by default, but can have a huge impact in
> some common situations.  E.g. downloading software updates.
>
>
>
> An unconditional pass is not good, because some buckets are small.  What
> counts as large enough to be ok, and what "derating" is ok?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> --MM--
> The best way to predict the future is to create it.  - Alan Kay
>
> We must not tolerate intolerance;
>
>        however our response must be carefully measured:
>
>             too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of
> control;
>
>             too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.
>
>
>
> ----------
> From: *MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)* <acm@research.att.com>
> Date: Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 5:08 AM
> To: Matt Mathis <mattmathis@google.com>
> Cc: CIAVATTONE, LEN <lc9892@att.com>, Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <
> Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
>
>
>
> Hi Matt, currently cruising between Crete and Malta,
>
> with about 7 days of vacation remaining =E2=80=93 Adding my friend Len.
>
> You know R=C3=BCdiger. It appears I=E2=80=99ve forgotten how to typs in 2=
 weeks
>
> given the number of typos I=E2=80=99ve fixed so far...
>
>
>
> We=E2=80=99ve seen big buffers on a basic DOCSIS cable service (downlink =
>2 sec)
>
> but,
>
>   we have 1-way delay variation or RTT variation limits
>
>   when searching for the max rate, that don=E2=80=99t many packets
>
>   queue in the buffer
>
>
>
>   we want the status messages that result in rate adjustment to return
>
>  in a reasonable amount of time (50ms + RTT)
>
>
>
>   we usually search for 10 seconds, but if we go back and test with
>
>   a fixed rate, we can see the buffer growing if the rate is too high.
>
>
>
>   There will eventually be a discussion on the thresholds we use
>
>   in the search // load rate control algorithm. The copy of
>
>   Y.1540 I sent you has a simple one, we moved beyond that now
>
>   (see the slides I didn=E2=80=99t get to present at IETF).
>
>
>
>   There is value in having some of this discussion on IPPM-list,
>
>   so we get some **agenda time at IETF-106**
>
>
>
> We measure rate and performance, with some performance limits
>
> built-in.  Pass/Fail is another step, de-rating too (made sense
>
> with MBM =E2=80=9Ctarget_rate=E2=80=9D).
>
>
>
> Al
>
>
>
> ----------
> From: <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
> Date: Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 12:05 AM
> To: <acm@research.att.com>
> Cc: <lc9892@att.com>, <mattmathis@google.com>
>
>
>
> Hi Al,
>
>
>
> thanks for keeping me involved. I don=E2=80=99t have a precise answer and=
 doubt,
> that there will be a single universal truth.
>
>
>
> If the aim is only to determine the IP bandwidth of an access, then we
> aren=E2=80=99t interested in filling a buffer. Buffering events may occur=
, some of
> which are useful and to be expected, whereas others are not desired:
>
>
>
>    - Sender shaping behavior may matter (is traffic at the source CBR or
>    is it bursty)
>    - Random collisions should be tolerated at the access whose bandwidth
>    is to be measured.
>    - Limiting packet drop due to buffer overflow is a design aim or an
>    important part of the algorithm, I think.
>    - Shared media might create bursts. I=E2=80=99m not an expert in the a=
rea, but
>    there=E2=80=99s an =E2=80=9Cis bandwidth available=E2=80=9D check in s=
ome cases between a central
>    sender using a shared medium and the receivers connected. WiFi and may=
 be
>    other wireless equipment buffers packets also to optimize wireless res=
ource
>    optimization.
>    - It might be an idea to mark some flows by ECN, once there=E2=80=99s =
a guess
>    on a sending bitrate when to expect no or very little packet drop. Tod=
ay,
>    this is experimental. CE marks by an ECN capable device should be expe=
cted
>    roughly once queuing starts.
>
>
>
> Practically, the set-up should be configurable with commodity hard- and
> software and all metrics should be measurable at the receiver. Burstiness
> of traffic and a distinction between queuing events which are to be
> expected and (undesired) queue build up are the events to be distinguishe=
d.
> I hope that can be done with commodity hard- and software. I at least am
> not able to write down a simple metric distinguishing queues to be expect=
ed
> from (undesired) queue build up causing congestion. The hard- and softwar=
e
> to be used should be part of the solution, not part of the problem (burst=
y
> source traffic and timestamps with insufficient accuracy to detect queues
> are what I=E2=80=99d like to avoid).
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99d suggest to move discussion to the list.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> R=C3=BCdiger
>
>
>
> ----------
> From: *MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)* <acm@research.att.com>
> Date: Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 7:01 AM
> To: Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
> Cc: CIAVATTONE, LEN <lc9892@att.com>, mattmathis@google.com <
> mattmathis@google.com>
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99m catching-up with this thread again, but before I reply:
>
>
>
> *** Any objection to moving this discussion to IPPM-list ?? ***
>
>
>
> @Matt =E2=80=93 this is a question to you at this point...
>
>
>
> thanks,
>
> Al
>
>
>
> *From:* Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de [mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de]
> *Sent:* Monday, August 26, 2019 3:05 AM
> *To:* MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com>
> *Cc:* CIAVATTONE, LEN <lc9892@att.com>; mattmathis@google.com
> *Subject:* AW: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
>
>
>
> Hi Al,
>
>
>
> thanks for keeping me involved. I don=E2=80=99t have a precise answer and=
 doubt,
> that there will be a single universal truth.
>
>
>
> If the aim is only to determine the IP bandwidth of an access, then we
> aren=E2=80=99t interested in filling a buffer. Buffering events may occur=
, some of
> which are useful and to be expected, whereas others are not desired:
>
>
>
> -        Sender shaping behavior may matter (is traffic at the source CBR
> or is it bursty)
>
> -        Random collisions should be tolerated at the access whose
> bandwidth is to be measured.
>
> -        Limiting packet drop due to buffer overflow is a design aim or
> an important part of the algorithm, I think.
>
> -        Shared media might create bursts. I=E2=80=99m not an expert in t=
he area,
> but there=E2=80=99s an =E2=80=9Cis bandwidth available=E2=80=9D check in =
some cases between a
> central sender using a shared medium and the receivers connected. WiFi an=
d
> may be other wireless equipment buffers packets also to optimize wireless
> resource optimization.
>
> -        It might be an idea to mark some flows by ECN, once there=E2=80=
=99s a
> guess on a sending bitrate when to expect no or very little packet drop.
> Today, this is experimental. CE marks by an ECN capable device should be
> expected roughly once queuing starts.
>
>
>

--0000000000009f0c6a0592f2322d
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I am actually more interested in the philosophical qu=
estions about how this should be reported, and what should the language be =
about non-stationary available=C2=A0capacity.=C2=A0 =C2=A0One intersecting =
issue: BBR converges on both the initial and final rate in under 2 seconds =
(this was a long path, so startup took more than a second).=C2=A0 =C2=A0Do =
users want a quick (and relatively cheap) test that takes 2 seconds or a lo=
nger test that is more likely to discover the token bucket?=C2=A0 How long?=
=C2=A0 If we want to call them different=C2=A0names, what should they be?</=
div><div><br></div><div>On the pure technical issues: BBR is still quite a =
moving target.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I have a paper in draft that will shed some ligh=
t on this.=C2=A0 It is due to be unembargoed=C2=A0sometime in October.</div=
><div>BBRv1 (released slightly after the cacm paper you mention) measures t=
he max_BW every 8 RTT.=C2=A0 BBRv2 measures the max_BW on a sliding schedul=
e that loosely=C2=A0matches CUBIC.=C2=A0 (In both, min_RTT is measured ever=
y 10 seconds, in the absence of organic low RTT samples).=C2=A0 =C2=A0BBRv2=
 uses additional signals and does a much better job of avoiding overshoot a=
t the startup.</div><div><br></div><div>In any case the best (most stable) =
BBR based metric seems to be delta(snd.una)/elapsed_time, which is the prog=
ress=C2=A0as seen by upper layers.=C2=A0 If you look at short time slices (=
we happen to be using 0.25 seconds) you see a mostly crisp square wave.=C2=
=A0 If you average from the beginning of the connection to now, the peak ra=
te happens at the moment the bucket runs out of tokens, and falls towards t=
he toke rate after that.</div><div><br clear=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Thanks,</div>--MM--<br>=
The best way to predict the future is to create it. =C2=A0- Alan Kay<br><br=
>We must not tolerate intolerance;</div><div dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0however our response must be carefully measured:=C2=A0</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too strong would be hypocritical =
and risks spiraling out of control;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.</div></div>=
</div></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 3:35 PM MOR=
TON, ALFRED C (AL) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@research.att.com">acm@research=
.att.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le=
ft:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-1635937847429678843WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">Thanks Matt!=C2=A0 This is an interesting =
trace to consider,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">and an important discussion to share with =
the group.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">When I look at the equation for BBR:<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black"><a href=3D"https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/=
2017/2/212428-bbr-congestion-based-congestion-control/fulltext" target=3D"_=
blank">https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2017/2/212428-bbr-congestion-based-co=
ngestion-control/fulltext</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">both BBR and Maximum IP-layer Capacity Met=
ric seek the
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">Max over some time interval. The window se=
ems smaller for
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">BBR: 6 to 10 RTTs, where we=E2=80=99ve bee=
n using parameters that<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">result in a rate measurement once a second=
 and take the max
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">of the 10 one-second measurements.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">We=E2=80=99ve also evaluate several perfor=
mance metrics when
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">adjusting load, and that determines how hi=
gh the sending<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">rate will go (based on feedback from the r=
eceiver).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/dra=
ft-morton-ippm-capcity-metric-method-00#section-4.3" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-morton-ippm-capcity-metric-method-00#section-=
4.3</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">So, it seems that the MAX delivered rate f=
or the 10 second test, =C2=A0we
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">can all see is 94.5 Mbps. This rate was su=
stained for more
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">than a trivial amount of time, too. But if=
 you are concerned that this<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">rate was somehow inflated by a large buffe=
r and a large
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">burst tolerance in the shaper =E2=80=93 th=
at=E2=80=99s where the additional<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">metrics and slightly different sending rat=
e control
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">that we described in the draft (and the sl=
ides) might help.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/me=
eting/105/materials/slides-105-ippm-metrics-and-methods-for-ip-capacity-00"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slide=
s-105-ippm-metrics-and-methods-for-ip-capacity-00</a><u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">IOW, it might well be that Max IP Capacity=
, measured as we designed<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">and parameterized it, measures 83 Mbps for=
 this path<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">(assuming the 94.5 is the result of big ov=
ershoot at sender, and the
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">fluctuating performance afterward seems to=
 support that).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">When I was looking for background on BBR, =
I saw a paper comparing<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">BBR and CUBIC during drive tests.<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black"><a href=3D"http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~claypool=
/papers/driving-bbr/" target=3D"_blank">http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~claypool/pap=
ers/driving-bbr/</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">One pair of plots seemed to indicate that =
BBR sent lots of Bytes<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">early-on, and grew the RTT pretty high bef=
ore settling down
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">(Figure 5, a &amp; b).<u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">This looks a bit like the case you describ=
ed below,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">except 94.5 Mbps is a Received Rate =E2=80=
=93 we don=E2=80=99t know<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">what came out of the network, just what we=
nt in and filled<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">a buffer before crashing down in the drive=
 test.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">So, I think I did more investigation than =
justification
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">for my answers, but I conclude the paramet=
ers like the
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">individual measurement intervals and overa=
ll time interval<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">from which the Max is drawn, plus the rate=
 control algorithm<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">itself, play a big role here.<u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">Al<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-1635937847429678843__MailEndCompose"><=
span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,serif;colo=
r:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a></p>
<div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-l=
eft:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"> Matt Mathis [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">mattmathis@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 19, 2019 5:18 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@research.att.com=
" target=3D"_blank">acm@research.att.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:Ruedige=
r.Geib@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ippm@ietf.org=
</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Fwd: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ok, moving the thread to IPPM<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Some background, we (Measurement=C2=A0Lab) are testi=
ng a new transport (TCP) performance measurement tool, based on BBR-TCP.=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0I&#39;m not ready to talk about results yet (well ok, it looks pr=
etty good).=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (BTW the BBR algorithm just happens to
 resemble the algorithm=C2=A0described in=C2=A0draft-morton-ippm-capcity-me=
tric-method-00.)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Anyhow=C2=A0we noticed some interesting performance =
features for number of ISPs in the US and Europe and I wanted to get some i=
nput for how these cases should be treated.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">One data point, a single trace saw ~94.5 Mbit/s for =
~4 seconds, fluctuating=C2=A0performance ~75 Mb/s for ~1 second and then st=
able performance=C2=A0at ~83Mb/s for the rest of the 10 second test.=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 If I were to guess this is probably a policer (shaper?)
 with a 1 MB token bucket and a=C2=A0~83Mb/s token rate (these numbers are =
not corrected for header overheads, which actually matter with this tool).=
=C2=A0 What is weird about it is that different ingress interfaces to the I=
SP (peers or serving=C2=A0locations) exhibit different
 parameters.=C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Now the IPPM measurement question:=C2=A0 =C2=A0Is th=
e bulk transport capacity of this link=C2=A0~94.5 Mbit/s or=C2=A0~83Mb/s?=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Justify your answer....?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--MM--<br>
The best way to predict the future is to create it. =C2=A0- Alan Kay<br>
<br>
We must not tolerate intolerance;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0however our response must=
 be carefully measured:=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too strong=
 would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of control;<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too weak r=
isks being mistaken for tacit approval.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:18pt">Forwarded Conversa=
tion</span></b><br>
<b>Subject: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?</b><br>
------------------------<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136)">From: <strong=
>Matt Mathis</strong> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.com" target=
=3D"_blank">mattmathis@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 8:55 AM<br>
To: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@research.att.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">acm@research.att.com</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We are seeing shapers=C2=A0 with huge bucket sizes, =
perhaps as larger or larger than 100 MB.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These are prohibitive to test by default, but can ha=
ve a huge impact in some common situations.=C2=A0 E.g. downloading software=
 updates.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">An unconditional pass is not good, because some buck=
ets are small.=C2=A0 What counts as large enough to be ok, and what &quot;d=
erating&quot; is ok?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--MM--<br>
The best way to predict the future is to create it. =C2=A0- Alan Kay<br>
<br>
We must not tolerate intolerance;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0however our response must=
 be carefully measured:=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too strong=
 would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of control;<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too weak r=
isks being mistaken for tacit approval.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136)">----------<br=
>
From: <strong>MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)</strong> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@rese=
arch.att.com" target=3D"_blank">acm@research.att.com</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 5:08 AM<br>
To: Matt Mathis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">mattmathis@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: CIAVATTONE, LEN &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lc9892@att.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>lc9892@att.com</a>&gt;, <a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=
=3D"_blank">
Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de=
" target=3D"_blank">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">Hi Matt, currently cruising between Crete =
and Malta,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">with about 7 days of vacation remaining =
=E2=80=93 Adding my friend Len.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">You know R=C3=BCdiger. It appears I=E2=80=
=99ve forgotten how to typs in 2 weeks</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">given the number of typos I=E2=80=99ve fix=
ed so far...</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">We=E2=80=99ve seen big buffers on a basic =
DOCSIS cable service (downlink &gt;2 sec)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">but,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0 we have 1-way delay variation or RT=
T variation limits</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0 when searching for the max rate, th=
at don=E2=80=99t many packets
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0queue in the buffer</span><u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0 we want the status messages that re=
sult in rate adjustment to return</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0in a reasonable amount of time (50ms=
 + RTT)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0 we usually search for 10 seconds, b=
ut if we go back and test with
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0a fixed rate, we can see the b=
uffer growing if the rate is too high.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0 There will eventually be a discussi=
on on the thresholds we use</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0 in the search // load rate control =
algorithm. The copy of
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0Y.1540 I sent you has a simple=
 one, we moved beyond that now</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0 (see the slides I didn=E2=80=99t ge=
t to present at IETF).</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0 There is value in having some of th=
is discussion on IPPM-list,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0 so we get some *<b>agenda time at I=
ETF-106</b>*
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">We measure rate and performance, with some=
 performance limits</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">built-in.=C2=A0 Pass/Fail is another step,=
 de-rating too (made sense
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">with MBM =E2=80=9Ctarget_rate=E2=80=9D).</=
span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">Al</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136)">----------<br=
>
From: &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">Rue=
diger.Geib@telekom.de</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 12:05 AM<br>
To: &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@research.att.com" target=3D"_blank">acm@resea=
rch.att.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lc9892@att.com" target=3D"_blank">lc9892@att.com<=
/a>&gt;, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mat=
tmathis@google.com</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">Hi Al,</span><span lang=3D"DE"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"DE"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">thanks for keeping me involved. I don=E2=80=99t have a precise an=
swer and doubt, that there will be a single universal truth.
</span><span lang=3D"DE"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"DE"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">If the aim is only to determine the IP bandwidth of an access, th=
en we aren=E2=80=99t interested in filling a buffer. Buffering
 events may occur, some of which are useful and to be expected, whereas oth=
ers are not desired:</span><span lang=3D"DE"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"DE"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Sender shapin=
g behavior may matter (is traffic at the source CBR or is it bursty)</span>=
<span lang=3D"DE"><u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Random collis=
ions should be tolerated at the access whose bandwidth is to be measured.</=
span><span lang=3D"DE"><u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Limiting pack=
et drop due to buffer overflow is a design aim or an important part of the =
algorithm, I think.</span><span lang=3D"DE"><u></u><u></u></span></li><li c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Shared media =
might create bursts. I=E2=80=99m not an expert in the area, but there=E2=80=
=99s an =E2=80=9Cis bandwidth available=E2=80=9D check in some cases betwee=
n a central sender using a shared medium and the receivers connected.
 WiFi and may be other wireless equipment buffers packets also to optimize =
wireless resource optimization.</span><span lang=3D"DE"><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">It might be a=
n idea to mark some flows by ECN, once there=E2=80=99s a guess on a sending=
 bitrate when to expect no or very little packet drop. Today, this is exper=
imental. CE marks by an ECN capable device
 should be expected roughly once queuing starts.</span><span lang=3D"DE"><u=
></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"DE"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">Practically, the set-up should be configurable with commodity har=
d- and software and all metrics should be measurable
 at the receiver. Burstiness of traffic and a distinction between queuing e=
vents which are to be expected and (undesired) queue build up are the event=
s to be distinguished. I hope that can be done with commodity hard- and sof=
tware. I at least am not able to
 write down a simple metric distinguishing queues to be expected from (unde=
sired) queue build up causing congestion. The hard- and software to be used=
 should be part of the solution, not part of the problem (bursty source tra=
ffic and timestamps with insufficient
 accuracy to detect queues are what I=E2=80=99d like to avoid).</span><span=
 lang=3D"DE"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"DE"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">I=E2=80=99d suggest to move discussion to the list.
</span><span lang=3D"DE"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"DE"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">Regards,</span><span lang=3D"DE"><u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"DE"><u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">R=C3=BCdiger</span><span lang=3D"DE"><u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136)">----------<br=
>
From: <strong>MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)</strong> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@rese=
arch.att.com" target=3D"_blank">acm@research.att.com</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 7:01 AM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">Ruediger.=
Geib@telekom.de</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=
=3D"_blank">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: CIAVATTONE, LEN &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lc9892@att.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>lc9892@att.com</a>&gt;, <a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.com" target=3D=
"_blank">
mattmathis@google.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">mattmathis@google.com</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">I=E2=80=99m catching-up with this thread a=
gain, but before I reply:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">*** Any objection to moving this discussio=
n to IPPM-list ?? ***</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">@Matt =E2=80=93 this is a question to you =
at this point...</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">thanks,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">Al</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-1635937847429678843_m_-723130847533367=
7527__MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-l=
eft:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif">
<a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">Ruediger.Geib=
@telekom.de</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=
=3D"_blank">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 26, 2019 3:05 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@research.att.com=
" target=3D"_blank">acm@research.att.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> CIAVATTONE, LEN &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lc9892@att.com" target=3D"=
_blank">lc9892@att.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mattmathis@googl=
e.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> AW: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?<=
/span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">Hi Al,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">thanks for keeping me involved. I don=E2=80=99t have a precise an=
swer and doubt, that there will be a single universal truth.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">If the aim is only to determine the IP bandwidth of an access, th=
en we aren=E2=80=99t interested in filling a buffer. Buffering
 events may occur, some of which are useful and to be expected, whereas oth=
ers are not desired:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">-</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:7pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Sender=
 shaping behavior may matter (is traffic at the source CBR or is it bursty)=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">-</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:7pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Random=
 collisions should be tolerated at the access whose bandwidth is to be meas=
ured.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">-</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:7pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Limiti=
ng packet drop due to buffer overflow is a design aim or an important part =
of the algorithm, I think.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">-</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:7pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Shared=
 media might create bursts. I=E2=80=99m not an expert in the area, but ther=
e=E2=80=99s an =E2=80=9Cis bandwidth available=E2=80=9D check in some cases=
 between a central sender using a shared medium and the receivers
 connected. WiFi and may be other wireless equipment buffers packets also t=
o optimize wireless resource optimization.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">-</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:7pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">It mig=
ht be an idea to mark some flows by ECN, once there=E2=80=99s a guess on a =
sending bitrate when to expect no or very little packet drop. Today, this i=
s experimental. CE marks by an ECN capable
 device should be expected roughly once queuing starts.</span><u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

--0000000000009f0c6a0592f2322d--


From nobody Fri Sep 20 16:09:05 2019
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Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-01.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol Optional Extensions
        Authors         : Greg Mirsky
                          Xiao Min
                          Guo Jun
                          Henrik Nydell
                          Richard Foote
                          Adi Masputra
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-01.txt
	Pages           : 19
	Date            : 2019-09-20

Abstract:
   This document describes optional extensions to Simple Two-way Active
   Measurement Protocol (STAMP) which enable measurement performance
   metrics in addition to ones supported by the STAMP base
   specification.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-01
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-01

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-01


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Hi Giuseppe,

Let me thank you for the reply. Let me go through it and I will get back.

Regards,
Sudhin

On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 14:23:33 +0530 Giuseppe Fioccola  wrote
>




 


Hi Sudhin,
Thank you for your very useful review. You can find my answers inline tagged as [GF].
Please let me know if this clarify.
If yes, you may want to publish your questions to the IPPM mailing list.

Regards,

Giuseppe

From: sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com [mailto:sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com]


Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 11:04 AM

To: Giuseppe Fioccola 

Subject: REG: https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark-02.txt

Hi Giuseppe,



I had gone through the draft. Could you please clarify the following.





1. The BUM traffic is very significant in the network, could you please let me know the reason for


excluding it. Excluding that the accuracy of traffic measurement is affected.
[GF]: Agree, BUM traffic is significant and it is not excluded here. It can be monitored by using the 
basic RFC 8321, since RFC 8321
 applies to point-to-point unicast flows and BUM traffic. The Multipoint alternate marking and its 
Clustering approach is valid for multipoint-to-multipoint unicast flows. I will highlight it better in 
the Introduction.


2. Could you please let me know how the out of order packet are handled.
[GF]: Out of order packets happen and are handled by
reducing consequently the available counting interval. These aspects are described in Section 7. In 
particular three different possible constraints are considered: clock error between
 network devices, network delay between measurement points and the misalignment between the marking 
source routers.



3. There will be ECMP paths, how this measurement will take care of it.
[GF]: ECMP paths are point-to-multipoint unicast flows so, by definition, they can be easily monitored 
with this technique. I will
 add a sentence on this in the Introduction or in Section 3.



4. How do we collect the data, the draft is silent of flow measurement.
[GF]: The draft aims to define especially the methodology as the extension of RFC 8321. However, 
Section 9 introduces the idea of
 an Intelligent Performance Management and suggests that an SDN Orchestrator or a Controller can apply 
this methodology since it is aware of the network topology. In addition, Section 3 introduces the 
generalization of the flow definition.


5. What will happen when re write rules are applied which gives an erroneous output isnt it.
[GF]: Yes, there is a transient time to wait once new rules are configured and it can be determined by 
the network management. I
 can add a sentence on this in Section 9.



6. In delay measurement, the draft didnt explain the start of the time measurement, the networks


elements are not synced properly there will be a delta. Since there is no explicit signalling of


timestamp. could you please explain how this is done.
[GF]: The delay measurements can be done similarly to RFC 8321. The marking batches anchor the samples 
to a particular period so
 this is the time reference that can be used (each block of packets can also be numbered if needed). As 
reported in Section 7, compared to RFC 8321, the only additional contribution to consider is the 
misalignment between the marking source routers and, as
 you said, there is a delta that reduces the available measurement interval. I can specify in the 
Section 8 that the timing aspects applies to delay measurements as well.





Regards,

Sudhin

 
 

--=_74830d0b4baac54a7b236bd293e5ad46
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"

Hi Giuseppe,<br />
<br />
Let me thank you for the reply. Let me go through it and I will get back.<b=
r />
<br />
Regards,<br />
Sudhin<br />
<br />
On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 14:23:33 +0530 Giuseppe Fioccola <giuseppe.fioccola@hua=
wei.com> wrote<br />
><br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
 <br />
<br />
<br />
Hi Sudhin,<br />
Thank you for your very useful review. You can find my answers inline tagge=
d as [GF].<br />
Please let me know if this clarify.<br />
If yes, you may want to publish your questions to the IPPM mailing list.<br=
 />
<br />
Regards,<br />
<br />
Giuseppe<br />
<br />
From: sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com [mailto:sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com]<br />
<br />
<br />
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 11:04 AM<br />
<br />
To: Giuseppe Fioccola <giuseppe.fioccola@huawei.com><br />
<br />
Subject: REG: https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark=
-02.txt<br />
<br />
Hi Giuseppe,<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
I had gone through the draft. Could you please clarify the following.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
1. The BUM traffic is very significant in the network, could you please let=
 me know the reason for<br />
<br />
<br />
excluding it. Excluding that the accuracy of traffic measurement is affecte=
d.<br />
[GF]: Agree, BUM traffic is significant and it is not excluded here. It can=
 be monitored by using the <br />
basic RFC 8321, since RFC 8321<br />
 applies to point-to-point unicast flows and BUM traffic. The Multipoint al=
ternate marking and its <br />
Clustering approach is valid for multipoint-to-multipoint unicast flows. I =
will highlight it better in <br />
the Introduction.<br />
<br />
<br />
2. Could you please let me know how the out of order packet are handled.<br=
 />
[GF]: Out of order packets happen and are handled by<br />
reducing consequently the available counting interval. These aspects are de=
scribed in Section 7. In <br />
particular three different possible constraints are considered: clock error=
 between<br />
 network devices, network delay between measurement points and the misalign=
ment between the marking <br />
source routers.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
3. There will be ECMP paths, how this measurement will take care of it.<br =
/>
[GF]: ECMP paths are point-to-multipoint unicast flows so, by definition, t=
hey can be easily monitored <br />
with this technique. I will<br />
 add a sentence on this in the Introduction or in Section 3.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
4. How do we collect the data, the draft is silent of flow measurement.<br =
/>
[GF]: The draft aims to define especially the methodology as the extension =
of RFC 8321. However, <br />
Section 9 introduces the idea of<br />
 an Intelligent Performance Management and suggests that an SDN Orchestrato=
r or a Controller can apply <br />
this methodology since it is aware of the network topology. In addition, Se=
ction 3 introduces the <br />
generalization of the flow definition.<br />
<br />
<br />
5. What will happen when re write rules are applied which gives an erroneou=
s output isnt it.<br />
[GF]: Yes, there is a transient time to wait once new rules are configured =
and it can be determined by <br />
the network management. I<br />
 can add a sentence on this in Section 9.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
6. In delay measurement, the draft didnt explain the start of the time meas=
urement, the networks<br />
<br />
<br />
elements are not synced properly there will be a delta. Since there is no e=
xplicit signalling of<br />
<br />
<br />
timestamp. could you please explain how this is done.<br />
[GF]: The delay measurements can be done similarly to RFC 8321. The marking=
 batches anchor the samples <br />
to a particular period so<br />
 this is the time reference that can be used (each block of packets can als=
o be numbered if needed). As <br />
reported in Section 7, compared to RFC 8321, the only additional contributi=
on to consider is the <br />
misalignment between the marking source routers and, as<br />
 you said, there is a delta that reduces the available measurement interval=
. I can specify in the <br />
Section 8 that the timing aspects applies to delay measurements as well.<br=
 />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Regards,<br />
<br />
Sudhin<br />
<br />
 <br />
 <br />
<br>
--=_74830d0b4baac54a7b236bd293e5ad46--


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Thread-Topic: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
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From: Matt Mathis <mattmathis@google.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 11:32:58 -0700
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To: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <acm@research.att.com>
Cc: "Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>, "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>, "CIAVATTONE, LEN" <lc9892@att.com>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
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Yes, exactly, I am sure this is a provider's feature.   I have a receiver
side pcap, and it is quite a bit more complicated than I thought:
- Zero losses in the entire trace.  It is dynamically shaped at a
bottleneck with a long queue that is pacing packets.
- The initial part is really straight (looks like a hard limit)
- The rate (and packet headway) smoothly wanders irregularly all over the
place in the latter part of the trace, from a low of about 1 Mb/s to peaks
close to the max rate.   My earlier data was from BBR max_rate, so the
fluctuating rate apparently has stable peaks.

By smooth: it looked like a spline fit, suggesting the instantaneous packet
headway was determined by a differential equation....

This behavior is not an accident, but the result of a very sophisticated
controller.   And we have seen other bottlenecks like it elsewhere in the
US and Europe.

As people may know, I do believe that shaping is the most appropriate way
to deal with heavy hitters.  And that we (IPPM) really need a way to
characterize shaping.  I do care about the asymptotic rate, and how quickly
I fall out of the initial rate.

Thanks,
--MM--
The best way to predict the future is to create it.  - Alan Kay

We must not tolerate intolerance;
       however our response must be carefully measured:
            too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of
control;
            too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.


On Sat, Sep 21, 2019 at 8:34 AM MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com=
>
wrote:

> Hi Matt,
>
>
>
> I had another thought about the 94 > 75 > 83 Mbps trace:
>
> This might well be a service provider=E2=80=99s feature, where
>
> they favor new flows with a high-rate for a short amount
>
> of time.  I remember some ISPs offering a =E2=80=9Cspeed boost=E2=80=9D
>
> to load web pages fast, but settling to a lower rate for
>
> longer transfers. The same strategy could help reduce
>
> the initial buffering time for video streams, perhaps with
>
> different time intervals and rates. This might be implemented
>
> by changing the token rate, or through some other means.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Matt Mathis [mailto:mattmathis@google.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 9:43 PM
> *To:* MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com>
> *Cc:* Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de; ippm@ietf.org; CIAVATTONE, LEN <
> lc9892@att.com>
> *Subject:* Re: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
>
>
>
> I am actually more interested in the philosophical questions about how
> this should be reported, and what should the language be about
> non-stationary available capacity.   One intersecting issue: BBR converge=
s
> on both the initial and final rate in under 2 seconds (this was a long
> path, so startup took more than a second).   Do users want a quick (and
> relatively cheap) test that takes 2 seconds or a longer test that is more
> likely to discover the token bucket?  How long?  If we want to call them
> different names, what should they be?
>
> *[acm] *
>
> So, if your trace is revealing a bimodal form of service rates,
>
> then it ought to be characterized with that in mind and
>
> allow for two modes of operation when reporting:
>
> 94 initial peak Capacity, 83 sustained Capacity
>
> *when this behavior is demonstrated and repeatable=E2=80=9D.
>
>
>
> Thanks for more insights about BBR, too.
>
> Al
>
>
>
> On the pure technical issues: BBR is still quite a moving target.   I hav=
e
> a paper in draft that will shed some light on this.  It is due to be
> unembargoed sometime in October.
>
> BBRv1 (released slightly after the cacm paper you mention) measures the
> max_BW every 8 RTT.  BBRv2 measures the max_BW on a sliding schedule that
> loosely matches CUBIC.  (In both, min_RTT is measured every 10 seconds, i=
n
> the absence of organic low RTT samples).   BBRv2 uses additional signals
> and does a much better job of avoiding overshoot at the startup.
>
>
>
> In any case the best (most stable) BBR based metric seems to be
> delta(snd.una)/elapsed_time, which is the progress as seen by upper
> layers.  If you look at short time slices (we happen to be using 0.25
> seconds) you see a mostly crisp square wave.  If you average from the
> beginning of the connection to now, the peak rate happens at the moment t=
he
> bucket runs out of tokens, and falls towards the toke rate after that.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> --MM--
> The best way to predict the future is to create it.  - Alan Kay
>
> We must not tolerate intolerance;
>
>        however our response must be carefully measured:
>
>             too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of
> control;
>
>             too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 3:35 PM MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <
> acm@research.att.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks Matt!  This is an interesting trace to consider,
>
> and an important discussion to share with the group.
>
>
>
> When I look at the equation for BBR:
>
>
> https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2017/2/212428-bbr-congestion-based-congest=
ion-control/fulltext
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__cacm.acm.org_maga=
zines_2017_2_212428-2Dbbr-2Dcongestion-2Dbased-2Dcongestion-2Dcontrol_fullt=
ext&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3D_6cen3Hn-e_hOm0BhY7aIpA58dd19=
Z9qGQsr8-6zYMI&m=3Dhc7clxrgBJnSNsskiiOadU_kTq28Yt__Nwwdg4C9zms&s=3Dr9ZlRUrf=
3rt7ZNsIpoSXARp3_ljQn3CHbrDZ7zMojow&e=3D>
>
>
>
> both BBR and Maximum IP-layer Capacity Metric seek the
>
> Max over some time interval. The window seems smaller for
>
> BBR: 6 to 10 RTTs, where we=E2=80=99ve been using parameters that
>
> result in a rate measurement once a second and take the max
>
> of the 10 one-second measurements.
>
>
>
> We=E2=80=99ve also evaluate several performance metrics when
>
> adjusting load, and that determines how high the sending
>
> rate will go (based on feedback from the receiver).
>
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-morton-ippm-capcity-metric-method-00#se=
ction-4.3
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dmorton-2Dippm-2Dcapcity-2Dmetric-2Dmethod-2D00-23section-2D4.3&d=
=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3D_6cen3Hn-e_hOm0BhY7aIpA58dd19Z9qGQ=
sr8-6zYMI&m=3Dhc7clxrgBJnSNsskiiOadU_kTq28Yt__Nwwdg4C9zms&s=3DCJxf89ZTabkMA=
iPj-b3_gyTKJfK2Ob3z9z1_Gwvzq-Q&e=3D>
>
>
>
> So, it seems that the MAX delivered rate for the 10 second test,  we
>
> can all see is 94.5 Mbps. This rate was sustained for more
>
> than a trivial amount of time, too. But if you are concerned that this
>
> rate was somehow inflated by a large buffer and a large
>
> burst tolerance in the shaper =E2=80=93 that=E2=80=99s where the addition=
al
>
> metrics and slightly different sending rate control
>
> that we described in the draft (and the slides) might help.
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-ippm-metric=
s-and-methods-for-ip-capacity-00
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.=
org_meeting_105_materials_slides-2D105-2Dippm-2Dmetrics-2Dand-2Dmethods-2Df=
or-2Dip-2Dcapacity-2D00&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3D_6cen3Hn-=
e_hOm0BhY7aIpA58dd19Z9qGQsr8-6zYMI&m=3Dhc7clxrgBJnSNsskiiOadU_kTq28Yt__Nwwd=
g4C9zms&s=3D8Fc9gs6FeJKe_bVYX3ROnlZNUfJxvV2MW8qvgNAWShU&e=3D>
>
>
>
> IOW, it might well be that Max IP Capacity, measured as we designed
>
> and parameterized it, measures 83 Mbps for this path
>
> (assuming the 94.5 is the result of big overshoot at sender, and the
>
> fluctuating performance afterward seems to support that).
>
>
>
> When I was looking for background on BBR, I saw a paper comparing
>
> BBR and CUBIC during drive tests.
>
> http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~claypool/papers/driving-bbr/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__web.cs.wpi.edu_-7E=
claypool_papers_driving-2Dbbr_&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3D_6=
cen3Hn-e_hOm0BhY7aIpA58dd19Z9qGQsr8-6zYMI&m=3Dhc7clxrgBJnSNsskiiOadU_kTq28Y=
t__Nwwdg4C9zms&s=3DeOYze9z2Nr5bSmDtcvs7xwy8Rn7IFzUnigeTS9ul0W8&e=3D>
>
> One pair of plots seemed to indicate that BBR sent lots of Bytes
>
> early-on, and grew the RTT pretty high before settling down
>
> (Figure 5, a & b).
>
> This looks a bit like the case you described below,
>
> except 94.5 Mbps is a Received Rate =E2=80=93 we don=E2=80=99t know
>
> what came out of the network, just what went in and filled
>
> a buffer before crashing down in the drive test.
>
>
>
> So, I think I did more investigation than justification
>
> for my answers, but I conclude the parameters like the
>
> individual measurement intervals and overall time interval
>
> from which the Max is drawn, plus the rate control algorithm
>
> itself, play a big role here.
>
>
>
> regards,
>
> Al
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Matt Mathis [mailto:mattmathis@google.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 5:18 PM
> *To:* MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com>;
> Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de
> *Cc:* ippm@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Fwd: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
>
>
>
> Ok, moving the thread to IPPM
>
>
>
> Some background, we (Measurement Lab) are testing a new transport (TCP)
> performance measurement tool, based on BBR-TCP.   I'm not ready to talk
> about results yet (well ok, it looks pretty good).    (BTW the BBR
> algorithm just happens to resemble the algorithm described
> in draft-morton-ippm-capcity-metric-method-00.)
>
>
>
> Anyhow we noticed some interesting performance features for number of ISP=
s
> in the US and Europe and I wanted to get some input for how these cases
> should be treated.
>
>
>
> One data point, a single trace saw ~94.5 Mbit/s for ~4 seconds,
> fluctuating performance ~75 Mb/s for ~1 second and then stable
> performance at ~83Mb/s for the rest of the 10 second test.    If I were t=
o
> guess this is probably a policer (shaper?) with a 1 MB token bucket and
> a ~83Mb/s token rate (these numbers are not corrected for header overhead=
s,
> which actually matter with this tool).  What is weird about it is that
> different ingress interfaces to the ISP (peers or serving locations)
> exhibit different parameters.
>
>
>
> Now the IPPM measurement question:   Is the bulk transport capacity of
> this link ~94.5 Mbit/s or ~83Mb/s?   Justify your answer....?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> --MM--
> The best way to predict the future is to create it.  - Alan Kay
>
> We must not tolerate intolerance;
>
>        however our response must be carefully measured:
>
>             too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of
> control;
>
>             too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.
>
>
>
> *Forwarded Conversation*
> *Subject: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?*
> ------------------------
>
>
>
> From: *Matt Mathis* <mattmathis@google.com>
> Date: Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 8:55 AM
> To: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com>
>
>
>
> We are seeing shapers  with huge bucket sizes, perhaps as larger or large=
r
> than 100 MB.
>
>
>
> These are prohibitive to test by default, but can have a huge impact in
> some common situations.  E.g. downloading software updates.
>
>
>
> An unconditional pass is not good, because some buckets are small.  What
> counts as large enough to be ok, and what "derating" is ok?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> --MM--
> The best way to predict the future is to create it.  - Alan Kay
>
> We must not tolerate intolerance;
>
>        however our response must be carefully measured:
>
>             too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of
> control;
>
>             too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.
>
>
>
> ----------
> From: *MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)* <acm@research.att.com>
> Date: Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 5:08 AM
> To: Matt Mathis <mattmathis@google.com>
> Cc: CIAVATTONE, LEN <lc9892@att.com>, Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <
> Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
>
>
>
> Hi Matt, currently cruising between Crete and Malta,
>
> with about 7 days of vacation remaining =E2=80=93 Adding my friend Len.
>
> You know R=C3=BCdiger. It appears I=E2=80=99ve forgotten how to typs in 2=
 weeks
>
> given the number of typos I=E2=80=99ve fixed so far...
>
>
>
> We=E2=80=99ve seen big buffers on a basic DOCSIS cable service (downlink =
>2 sec)
>
> but,
>
>   we have 1-way delay variation or RTT variation limits
>
>   when searching for the max rate, that don=E2=80=99t many packets
>
>   queue in the buffer
>
>
>
>   we want the status messages that result in rate adjustment to return
>
>  in a reasonable amount of time (50ms + RTT)
>
>
>
>   we usually search for 10 seconds, but if we go back and test with
>
>   a fixed rate, we can see the buffer growing if the rate is too high.
>
>
>
>   There will eventually be a discussion on the thresholds we use
>
>   in the search // load rate control algorithm. The copy of
>
>   Y.1540 I sent you has a simple one, we moved beyond that now
>
>   (see the slides I didn=E2=80=99t get to present at IETF).
>
>
>
>   There is value in having some of this discussion on IPPM-list,
>
>   so we get some **agenda time at IETF-106**
>
>
>
> We measure rate and performance, with some performance limits
>
> built-in.  Pass/Fail is another step, de-rating too (made sense
>
> with MBM =E2=80=9Ctarget_rate=E2=80=9D).
>
>
>
> Al
>
>
>
> ----------
> From: <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
> Date: Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 12:05 AM
> To: <acm@research.att.com>
> Cc: <lc9892@att.com>, <mattmathis@google.com>
>
>
>
> Hi Al,
>
>
>
> thanks for keeping me involved. I don=E2=80=99t have a precise answer and=
 doubt,
> that there will be a single universal truth.
>
>
>
> If the aim is only to determine the IP bandwidth of an access, then we
> aren=E2=80=99t interested in filling a buffer. Buffering events may occur=
, some of
> which are useful and to be expected, whereas others are not desired:
>
>
>
>    - Sender shaping behavior may matter (is traffic at the source CBR or
>    is it bursty)
>    - Random collisions should be tolerated at the access whose bandwidth
>    is to be measured.
>    - Limiting packet drop due to buffer overflow is a design aim or an
>    important part of the algorithm, I think.
>    - Shared media might create bursts. I=E2=80=99m not an expert in the a=
rea, but
>    there=E2=80=99s an =E2=80=9Cis bandwidth available=E2=80=9D check in s=
ome cases between a central
>    sender using a shared medium and the receivers connected. WiFi and may=
 be
>    other wireless equipment buffers packets also to optimize wireless res=
ource
>    optimization.
>    - It might be an idea to mark some flows by ECN, once there=E2=80=99s =
a guess
>    on a sending bitrate when to expect no or very little packet drop. Tod=
ay,
>    this is experimental. CE marks by an ECN capable device should be expe=
cted
>    roughly once queuing starts.
>
>
>
> Practically, the set-up should be configurable with commodity hard- and
> software and all metrics should be measurable at the receiver. Burstiness
> of traffic and a distinction between queuing events which are to be
> expected and (undesired) queue build up are the events to be distinguishe=
d.
> I hope that can be done with commodity hard- and software. I at least am
> not able to write down a simple metric distinguishing queues to be expect=
ed
> from (undesired) queue build up causing congestion. The hard- and softwar=
e
> to be used should be part of the solution, not part of the problem (burst=
y
> source traffic and timestamps with insufficient accuracy to detect queues
> are what I=E2=80=99d like to avoid).
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99d suggest to move discussion to the list.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> R=C3=BCdiger
>
>
>
> ----------
> From: *MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)* <acm@research.att.com>
> Date: Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 7:01 AM
> To: Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
> Cc: CIAVATTONE, LEN <lc9892@att.com>, mattmathis@google.com <
> mattmathis@google.com>
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99m catching-up with this thread again, but before I reply:
>
>
>
> *** Any objection to moving this discussion to IPPM-list ?? ***
>
>
>
> @Matt =E2=80=93 this is a question to you at this point...
>
>
>
> thanks,
>
> Al
>
>
>
> *From:* Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de [mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de]
> *Sent:* Monday, August 26, 2019 3:05 AM
> *To:* MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com>
> *Cc:* CIAVATTONE, LEN <lc9892@att.com>; mattmathis@google.com
> *Subject:* AW: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
>
>
>
> Hi Al,
>
>
>
> thanks for keeping me involved. I don=E2=80=99t have a precise answer and=
 doubt,
> that there will be a single universal truth.
>
>
>
> If the aim is only to determine the IP bandwidth of an access, then we
> aren=E2=80=99t interested in filling a buffer. Buffering events may occur=
, some of
> which are useful and to be expected, whereas others are not desired:
>
>
>
> -        Sender shaping behavior may matter (is traffic at the source CBR
> or is it bursty)
>
> -        Random collisions should be tolerated at the access whose
> bandwidth is to be measured.
>
> -        Limiting packet drop due to buffer overflow is a design aim or
> an important part of the algorithm, I think.
>
> -        Shared media might create bursts. I=E2=80=99m not an expert in t=
he area,
> but there=E2=80=99s an =E2=80=9Cis bandwidth available=E2=80=9D check in =
some cases between a
> central sender using a shared medium and the receivers connected. WiFi an=
d
> may be other wireless equipment buffers packets also to optimize wireless
> resource optimization.
>
> -        It might be an idea to mark some flows by ECN, once there=E2=80=
=99s a
> guess on a sending bitrate when to expect no or very little packet drop.
> Today, this is experimental. CE marks by an ECN capable device should be
> expected roughly once queuing starts.
>
>
>
>

--00000000000039a4cb0593146bf5
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Yes, exactly, I am sure this is a provider&#39;s feature.=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0I have a receiver side pcap, and it is quite a bit more compli=
cated than I thought:<div>- Zero losses in the entire trace.=C2=A0 It is dy=
namically shaped=C2=A0at a bottleneck with a long queue that is  pacing pac=
kets.</div><div>- The initial=C2=A0part is really straight (looks like a ha=
rd limit)</div><div>- The rate (and packet headway) smoothly wanders irregu=
larly all over the place in the latter part of the trace, from a low of abo=
ut 1 Mb/s to peaks close to the max rate.=C2=A0 =C2=A0My earlier data was f=
rom BBR max_rate, so the fluctuating rate apparently=C2=A0has stable peaks.=
</div><div><br></div><div>By smooth: it looked like a spline fit, suggestin=
g the instantaneous=C2=A0packet headway was determined=C2=A0by a differenti=
al=C2=A0equation....</div><div><br></div><div>This behavior is not an accid=
ent, but the result of a very sophisticated controller.=C2=A0 =C2=A0And we =
have seen other bottlenecks=C2=A0like it elsewhere in the US and Europe.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>As people may know, I do believe that shaping is the=
 most appropriate way to deal with heavy hitters.=C2=A0 And that we (IPPM) =
really need a way to characterize shaping.=C2=A0 I do=C2=A0care about the a=
symptotic rate, and how quickly I fall out of the initial rate.</div><div><=
br clear=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smart=
mail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div>Thanks,</div>--MM--<br>The best way to predict the future i=
s to create it. =C2=A0- Alan Kay<br><br>We must not tolerate intolerance;</=
div><div dir=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0however our response must b=
e carefully measured:=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of control;=
</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too weak risks being m=
istaken for tacit approval.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></=
div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_at=
tr">On Sat, Sep 21, 2019 at 8:34 AM MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:acm@research.att.com">acm@research.att.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-353202486385061860WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">Hi Matt,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">I had another thought about the 94 &gt; 75=
 &gt; 83 Mbps trace:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">This might well be a service provider=E2=
=80=99s feature, where<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">they favor new flows with a high-rate for =
a short amount<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">of time.=C2=A0 I remember some ISPs offeri=
ng a =E2=80=9Cspeed boost=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">to load web pages fast, but settling to a =
lower rate for<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">longer transfers. The same strategy could =
help reduce<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">the initial buffering time for video strea=
ms, perhaps with
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">different time intervals and rates. This m=
ight be implemented<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">by changing the token rate, or through som=
e other means.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-353202486385061860__MailEndCompose"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;,serif;color=
:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a></p>
<div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-l=
eft:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"> Matt Mathis [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">mattmathis@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 19, 2019 9:43 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@research.att.com=
" target=3D"_blank">acm@research.att.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">Ru=
ediger.Geib@telekom.de</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">ippm@ietf.org</a>; CIAVATTONE, LEN &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lc9892@att.com=
" target=3D"_blank">lc9892@att.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I am actually more interested in the philosophical q=
uestions about how this should be reported, and what should the language be=
 about non-stationary available=C2=A0capacity.=C2=A0 =C2=A0One intersecting=
 issue: BBR converges on both the initial and final
 rate in under 2 seconds (this was a long path, so startup took more than a=
 second).=C2=A0 =C2=A0Do users want a quick (and relatively cheap) test tha=
t takes 2 seconds or a longer test that is more likely to discover the toke=
n bucket?=C2=A0 How long?=C2=A0 If we want to call them
 different=C2=A0names, what should they be?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Courier New&quot;,serif;color:black">[acm]
</span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&=
quot;,serif;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">So, if your trace is revealing a bimodal f=
orm of service rates,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">then it ought to be characterized with tha=
t in mind and<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">allow for two modes of operation when repo=
rting:
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">94 initial peak Capacity, 83 sustained Cap=
acity<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">*when this behavior is demonstrated and re=
peatable=E2=80=9D.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">Thanks for more insights about BBR, too.<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">Al<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On the pure technical issues: BBR is still quite a m=
oving target.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I have a paper in draft that will shed some light=
 on this.=C2=A0 It is due to be unembargoed=C2=A0sometime in October.<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">BBRv1 (released slightly after the cacm paper you me=
ntion) measures the max_BW every 8 RTT.=C2=A0 BBRv2 measures the max_BW on =
a sliding schedule that loosely=C2=A0matches CUBIC.=C2=A0 (In both, min_RTT=
 is measured every 10 seconds, in the absence of
 organic low RTT samples).=C2=A0 =C2=A0BBRv2 uses additional signals and do=
es a much better job of avoiding overshoot at the startup.<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In any case the best (most stable) BBR based metric =
seems to be delta(snd.una)/elapsed_time, which is the progress=C2=A0as seen=
 by upper layers.=C2=A0 If you look at short time slices (we happen to be u=
sing 0.25 seconds) you see a mostly crisp square
 wave.=C2=A0 If you average from the beginning of the connection to now, th=
e peak rate happens at the moment the bucket runs out of tokens, and falls =
towards the toke rate after that.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--MM--<br>
The best way to predict the future is to create it. =C2=A0- Alan Kay<br>
<br>
We must not tolerate intolerance;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0however our response must=
 be carefully measured:=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too strong=
 would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of control;<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too weak r=
isks being mistaken for tacit approval.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 3:35 PM MORTON, ALFRED C (AL=
) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@research.att.com" target=3D"_blank">acm@researc=
h.att.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">Thanks Matt!=C2=A0 This is an interesting =
trace to consider,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">and an important discussion to share with =
the group.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">When I look at the equation for BBR:</span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.c=
om/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__cacm.acm.org_magazines_2017_2_212428-2Dbbr-2Dconges=
tion-2Dbased-2Dcongestion-2Dcontrol_fulltext&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DLFYZ-o9=
_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&amp;r=3D_6cen3Hn-e_hOm0BhY7aIpA58dd19Z9qGQsr8-6zYMI&amp;m=
=3Dhc7clxrgBJnSNsskiiOadU_kTq28Yt__Nwwdg4C9zms&amp;s=3Dr9ZlRUrf3rt7ZNsIpoSX=
ARp3_ljQn3CHbrDZ7zMojow&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://cacm.acm.org/ma=
gazines/2017/2/212428-bbr-congestion-based-congestion-control/fulltext</a><=
/span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">both BBR and Maximum IP-layer Capacity Met=
ric seek the
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">Max over some time interval. The window se=
ems smaller for
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">BBR: 6 to 10 RTTs, where we=E2=80=99ve bee=
n using parameters that</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">result in a rate measurement once a second=
 and take the max
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">of the 10 one-second measurements.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">We=E2=80=99ve also evaluate several perfor=
mance metrics when
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">adjusting load, and that determines how hi=
gh the sending</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">rate will go (based on feedback from the r=
eceiver).</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.c=
om/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dmorton-2Dippm-2Dcapcity=
-2Dmetric-2Dmethod-2D00-23section-2D4.3&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMe=
MTSQicvjIg&amp;r=3D_6cen3Hn-e_hOm0BhY7aIpA58dd19Z9qGQsr8-6zYMI&amp;m=3Dhc7c=
lxrgBJnSNsskiiOadU_kTq28Yt__Nwwdg4C9zms&amp;s=3DCJxf89ZTabkMAiPj-b3_gyTKJfK=
2Ob3z9z1_Gwvzq-Q&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr=
aft-morton-ippm-capcity-metric-method-00#section-4.3</a></span><u></u><u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">So, it seems that the MAX delivered rate f=
or the 10 second test, =C2=A0we
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">can all see is 94.5 Mbps. This rate was su=
stained for more
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">than a trivial amount of time, too. But if=
 you are concerned that this</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">rate was somehow inflated by a large buffe=
r and a large
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">burst tolerance in the shaper =E2=80=93 th=
at=E2=80=99s where the additional</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">metrics and slightly different sending rat=
e control
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">that we described in the draft (and the sl=
ides) might help.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.c=
om/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracker.ietf.org_meeting_105_materials_slides-2=
D105-2Dippm-2Dmetrics-2Dand-2Dmethods-2Dfor-2Dip-2Dcapacity-2D00&amp;d=3DDw=
MFaQ&amp;c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&amp;r=3D_6cen3Hn-e_hOm0BhY7aIpA58dd19Z9=
qGQsr8-6zYMI&amp;m=3Dhc7clxrgBJnSNsskiiOadU_kTq28Yt__Nwwdg4C9zms&amp;s=3D8F=
c9gs6FeJKe_bVYX3ROnlZNUfJxvV2MW8qvgNAWShU&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https=
://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-ippm-metrics-and-m=
ethods-for-ip-capacity-00</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">IOW, it might well be that Max IP Capacity=
, measured as we designed</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">and parameterized it, measures 83 Mbps for=
 this path</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">(assuming the 94.5 is the result of big ov=
ershoot at sender, and the
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">fluctuating performance afterward seems to=
 support that).</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">When I was looking for background on BBR, =
I saw a paper comparing</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">BBR and CUBIC during drive tests.</span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.c=
om/v2/url?u=3Dhttp-3A__web.cs.wpi.edu_-7Eclaypool_papers_driving-2Dbbr_&amp=
;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&amp;r=3D_6cen3Hn-e_hOm0BhY7aIpA5=
8dd19Z9qGQsr8-6zYMI&amp;m=3Dhc7clxrgBJnSNsskiiOadU_kTq28Yt__Nwwdg4C9zms&amp=
;s=3DeOYze9z2Nr5bSmDtcvs7xwy8Rn7IFzUnigeTS9ul0W8&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank=
">http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~claypool/papers/driving-bbr/</a></span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">One pair of plots seemed to indicate that =
BBR sent lots of Bytes</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">early-on, and grew the RTT pretty high bef=
ore settling down
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">(Figure 5, a &amp; b).</span><u></u><u></u=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">This looks a bit like the case you describ=
ed below,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">except 94.5 Mbps is a Received Rate =E2=80=
=93 we don=E2=80=99t know</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">what came out of the network, just what we=
nt in and filled</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">a buffer before crashing down in the drive=
 test.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">So, I think I did more investigation than =
justification
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">for my answers, but I conclude the paramet=
ers like the
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">individual measurement intervals and overa=
ll time interval</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">from which the Max is drawn, plus the rate=
 control algorithm</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">itself, play a big role here.</span><u></u=
><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">Al</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-353202486385061860_m_-1635937847429678=
843__MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Courie=
r New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-l=
eft:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"> Matt Mathis [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">mattmathis@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 19, 2019 5:18 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@research.att.com=
" target=3D"_blank">acm@research.att.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">Ruediger.Geib=
@telekom.de</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ippm@ietf.org=
</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Fwd: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ok, moving the thread to IPPM<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Some background, we (Measurement=C2=A0Lab) are testi=
ng a new transport (TCP) performance measurement tool, based on BBR-TCP.=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0I&#39;m not ready to talk about results yet (well ok, it looks
 pretty good).=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (BTW the BBR algorithm just happens to resemble=
 the algorithm=C2=A0described in=C2=A0draft-morton-ippm-capcity-metric-meth=
od-00.)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Anyhow=C2=A0we noticed some interesting performance =
features for number of ISPs in the US and Europe and I wanted to get some i=
nput for how these cases should be treated.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">One data point, a single trace saw ~94.5 Mbit/s for =
~4 seconds, fluctuating=C2=A0performance ~75 Mb/s for ~1 second and then st=
able performance=C2=A0at ~83Mb/s for the rest of the 10 second
 test.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If I were to guess this is probably a policer (shaper?)=
 with a 1 MB token bucket and a=C2=A0~83Mb/s token rate (these numbers are =
not corrected for header overheads, which actually matter with this tool).=
=C2=A0 What is weird about it is that different ingress
 interfaces to the ISP (peers or serving=C2=A0locations) exhibit different =
parameters.=C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Now the IPPM measurement question:=C2=A0 =C2=A0Is th=
e bulk transport capacity of this link=C2=A0~94.5 Mbit/s or=C2=A0~83Mb/s?=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Justify your answer....?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--MM--<br>
The best way to predict the future is to create it. =C2=A0- Alan Kay<br>
<br>
We must not tolerate intolerance;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0however our response must=
 be carefully measured:=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too strong=
 would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of control;<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too weak r=
isks being mistaken for tacit approval.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:18pt">Forwarded Conversa=
tion</span></b><br>
<b>Subject: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?</b><br>
------------------------<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136)">From:
<strong>Matt Mathis</strong> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">mattmathis@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 8:55 AM<br>
To: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@research.att.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">acm@research.att.com</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We are seeing shapers=C2=A0 with huge bucket sizes, =
perhaps as larger or larger than 100 MB.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These are prohibitive to test by default, but can ha=
ve a huge impact in some common situations.=C2=A0 E.g. downloading software=
 updates.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">An unconditional pass is not good, because some buck=
ets are small.=C2=A0 What counts as large enough to be ok, and what &quot;d=
erating&quot; is ok?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--MM--<br>
The best way to predict the future is to create it. =C2=A0- Alan Kay<br>
<br>
We must not tolerate intolerance;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0however our response must=
 be carefully measured:=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too strong=
 would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of control;<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too weak r=
isks being mistaken for tacit approval.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136)">----------<br=
>
From: <strong>MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)</strong> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@rese=
arch.att.com" target=3D"_blank">acm@research.att.com</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 5:08 AM<br>
To: Matt Mathis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">mattmathis@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: CIAVATTONE, LEN &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lc9892@att.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>lc9892@att.com</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">Ruediger.Geib=
@telekom.de</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=3D"_=
blank">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">Hi Matt, currently cruising between Crete =
and Malta,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">with about 7 days of vacation remaining =
=E2=80=93 Adding my friend Len.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">You know R=C3=BCdiger. It appears I=E2=80=
=99ve forgotten how to typs in 2 weeks</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">given the number of typos I=E2=80=99ve fix=
ed so far...</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">We=E2=80=99ve seen big buffers on a basic =
DOCSIS cable service (downlink &gt;2 sec)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">but,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0 we have 1-way delay variation or RT=
T variation limits</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0 when searching for the max rate, th=
at don=E2=80=99t many packets
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0queue in the buffer</span><u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0 we want the status messages that re=
sult in rate adjustment to return</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0in a reasonable amount of time (50ms=
 + RTT)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0 we usually search for 10 seconds, b=
ut if we go back and test with
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0a fixed rate, we can see the b=
uffer growing if the rate is too high.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0 There will eventually be a discussi=
on on the thresholds we use</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0 in the search // load rate control =
algorithm. The copy of
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0Y.1540 I sent you has a simple=
 one, we moved beyond that now</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0 (see the slides I didn=E2=80=99t ge=
t to present at IETF).</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0 There is value in having some of th=
is discussion on IPPM-list,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0 so we get some *<b>agenda time at I=
ETF-106</b>*
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">We measure rate and performance, with some=
 performance limits</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">built-in.=C2=A0 Pass/Fail is another step,=
 de-rating too (made sense
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">with MBM =E2=80=9Ctarget_rate=E2=80=9D).</=
span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">Al</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136)">----------<br=
>
From: &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">Rue=
diger.Geib@telekom.de</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 12:05 AM<br>
To: &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@research.att.com" target=3D"_blank">acm@resea=
rch.att.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lc9892@att.com" target=3D"_blank">lc9892@att.com<=
/a>&gt;, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mat=
tmathis@google.com</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">Hi Al,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">thanks for keeping me involved. I don=E2=80=99t have a precise an=
swer and doubt, that there will be a single universal truth.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">If the aim is only to determine the IP bandwidth of an access, th=
en we aren=E2=80=99t interested in filling a buffer. Buffering
 events may occur, some of which are useful and to be expected, whereas oth=
ers are not desired:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Sender shapin=
g behavior may matter (is traffic at the source CBR or is it bursty)</span>=
<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Random collis=
ions should be tolerated at the access whose bandwidth is to be measured.</=
span><u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Limiting pack=
et drop due to buffer overflow is a design aim or an important part of the =
algorithm, I think.</span><u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Shared media =
might create bursts. I=E2=80=99m not an expert in the area, but there=E2=80=
=99s an =E2=80=9Cis bandwidth available=E2=80=9D check in some cases betwee=
n a central sender using a shared medium and the receivers connected.
 WiFi and may be other wireless equipment buffers packets also to optimize =
wireless resource optimization.</span><u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">It might be a=
n idea to mark some flows by ECN, once there=E2=80=99s a guess on a sending=
 bitrate when to expect no or very little packet drop. Today, this is exper=
imental. CE marks by an ECN capable device
 should be expected roughly once queuing starts.</span><u></u><u></u></li><=
/ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">Practically, the set-up should be configurable with commodity har=
d- and software and all metrics should be measurable
 at the receiver. Burstiness of traffic and a distinction between queuing e=
vents which are to be expected and (undesired) queue build up are the event=
s to be distinguished. I hope that can be done with commodity hard- and sof=
tware. I at least am not able to
 write down a simple metric distinguishing queues to be expected from (unde=
sired) queue build up causing congestion. The hard- and software to be used=
 should be part of the solution, not part of the problem (bursty source tra=
ffic and timestamps with insufficient
 accuracy to detect queues are what I=E2=80=99d like to avoid).</span><u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">I=E2=80=99d suggest to move discussion to the list.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:Calibri,sans-serif">R=C3=BCdiger</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136)">----------<br=
>
From: <strong>MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)</strong> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@rese=
arch.att.com" target=3D"_blank">acm@research.att.com</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 7:01 AM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">Ruediger.=
Geib@telekom.de</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=
=3D"_blank">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: CIAVATTONE, LEN &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lc9892@att.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>lc9892@att.com</a>&gt;,
<a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mattmathis@googl=
e.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.com" target=3D"_blank">ma=
ttmathis@google.com</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">I=E2=80=99m catching-up with this thread a=
gain, but before I reply:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">*** Any objection to moving this discussio=
n to IPPM-list ?? ***</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">@Matt =E2=80=93 this is a question to you =
at this point...</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">thanks,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">Al</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-353202486385061860_m_-1635937847429678=
843_m_-72313084753336"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;,serif;color:black">=C2=A0</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-l=
eft:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif">
<a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">Ruediger.Geib=
@telekom.de</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=
=3D"_blank">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 26, 2019 3:05 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@research.att.com=
" target=3D"_blank">acm@research.att.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> CIAVATTONE, LEN &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lc9892@att.com" target=3D"=
_blank">lc9892@att.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mattmathis@googl=
e.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> AW: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?<=
/span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">Hi Al,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">thanks for keeping me involved. I don=E2=80=99t have a precise an=
swer and doubt, that there will be a single universal truth.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">If the aim is only to determine the IP bandwidth of an access, th=
en we aren=E2=80=99t interested in filling a buffer. Buffering
 events may occur, some of which are useful and to be expected, whereas oth=
ers are not desired:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">-</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:7pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Sender=
 shaping behavior may matter (is traffic at the source CBR or is it bursty)=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">-</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:7pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Random=
 collisions should be tolerated at the access whose bandwidth is to be meas=
ured.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">-</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:7pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Limiti=
ng packet drop due to buffer overflow is a design aim or an important part =
of the algorithm, I think.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">-</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:7pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Shared=
 media might create bursts. I=E2=80=99m not an expert in the area, but ther=
e=E2=80=99s an =E2=80=9Cis bandwidth available=E2=80=9D check in some cases=
 between a central sender using a shared medium and the receivers
 connected. WiFi and may be other wireless equipment buffers packets also t=
o optimize wireless resource optimization.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">-</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:7pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">It mig=
ht be an idea to mark some flows by ECN, once there=E2=80=99s a guess on a =
sending bitrate when to expect no or very little packet drop. Today, this i=
s experimental. CE marks by an ECN capable
 device should be expected roughly once queuing starts.</span><u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

--00000000000039a4cb0593146bf5--


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Subject: Re: [ippm] How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
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--_000_LEJPR01MB11783F8121EC828FF1EC12419C850LEJPR01MB1178DEUP_--


From nobody Mon Sep 23 01:36:19 2019
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Subject: Re: [ippm]  =?utf-8?q?https=3A//tools=2Eietf=2Eorg/id/draft-ietf-ippm?= =?utf-8?q?-multipoint-alt-mark-02=2Etxt?=
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Hi Giuseppe,

Kindly find the answer inline.

Regards,
Sudhin

On Mon, 23 Sep 2019 13:00:12 +0530 Giuseppe Fioccola  wrote
>




 


Hi Sudhin,
No problem and thank you for posting our exchange.
Please let me know if this clarify and if you have additional comments.

Best Regards,

Giuseppe

From: sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com [mailto:sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com]


Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 9:01 AM

To: Giuseppe Fioccola 

Cc: ippm@ietf.org

Subject: Re: https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark-02.txt

Hi Giuseppe,



Let me thank you for the reply. Let me go through it and I will get back.



Regards,

Sudhin



On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 14:23:33 +0530 Giuseppe Fioccola wrote

>















Hi Sudhin,

Thank you for your very useful review. You can find my answers inline tagged as [GF].

Please let me know if this clarify.

If yes, you may want to publish your questions to the IPPM mailing list.



Regards,



Giuseppe



From: sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com [mailto:sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com]





Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 11:04 AM



To: Giuseppe Fioccola 



Subject: REG: 
https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark-02.txt



Hi Giuseppe,







I had gone through the draft. Could you please clarify the following.











1. The BUM traffic is very significant in the network, could you please let me know the reason for





excluding it. Excluding that the accuracy of traffic measurement is affected.

[GF]: Agree, BUM traffic is significant and it is not excluded here. It can be monitored by using the


basic RFC 8321, since RFC 8321

applies to point-to-point unicast flows and BUM traffic. The Multipoint alternate marking and its


Clustering approach is valid for multipoint-to-multipoint unicast flows. I will highlight it better in


the Introduction.


Sudhin>>>>>>>>> yes it would be better, BUM traffic measurement is very much needed.


2. Could you please let me know how the out of order packet are handled.

[GF]: Out of order packets happen and are handled by

reducing consequently the available counting interval. These aspects are described in Section 7. In


particular three different possible constraints are considered: clock error between

network devices, network delay between measurement points and the misalignment between the marking


source routers.


Sudhin>>>>>> since there is no in band mechanism, how to know the when the flow started at router PE1 
and when it reached PE2, there is no time stamp field. How to calculate the delta.




3. There will be ECMP paths, how this measurement will take care of it.

[GF]: ECMP paths are point-to-multipoint unicast flows so, by definition, they can be easily monitored


with this technique. I will

add a sentence on this in the Introduction or in Section 3.

Sudhin>>>>>> Sure Kindly address that







4. How do we collect the data, the draft is silent of flow measurement.

[GF]: The draft aims to define especially the methodology as the extension of RFC 8321. However,


Section 9 introduces the idea of

an Intelligent Performance Management and suggests that an SDN Orchestrator or a Controller can apply


this methodology since it is aware of the network topology. In addition, Section 3 introduces the


generalization of the flow definition.


Sudhin>>> Color details are not mentioned.


5. What will happen when re write rules are applied which gives an erroneous output isnt it.

[GF]: Yes, there is a transient time to wait once new rules are configured and it can be determined by


the network management. I

can add a sentence on this in Section 9.



Sudhin>> ok



6. In delay measurement, the draft didnt explain the start of the time measurement, the networks





elements are not synced properly there will be a delta. Since there is no explicit signalling of





timestamp. could you please explain how this is done.

[GF]: The delay measurements can be done similarly to RFC 8321. The marking batches anchor the samples


to a particular period so

this is the time reference that can be used (each block of packets can also be numbered if needed). As


reported in Section 7, compared to RFC 8321, the only additional contribution to consider is the


misalignment between the marking source routers and, as

you said, there is a delta that reduces the available measurement interval. I can specify in the


Section 8 that the timing aspects applies to delay measurements as well.


Sudhin>>>>>> please since there is no timestamp counter, it would be difficult to measure delay and 
delay variations.








Regards,



Sudhin









 
 

--=_68ee17e16b338788587d4486de952e83
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"

Hi Giuseppe,<br />
<br />
Kindly find the answer inline.<br />
<br />
Regards,<br />
Sudhin<br />
<br />
On Mon, 23 Sep 2019 13:00:12 +0530 Giuseppe Fioccola <giuseppe.fioccola@hua=
wei.com> wrote<br />
><br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
 <br />
<br />
<br />
Hi Sudhin,<br />
No problem and thank you for posting our exchange.<br />
Please let me know if this clarify and if you have additional comments.<br =
/>
<br />
Best Regards,<br />
<br />
Giuseppe<br />
<br />
From: sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com [mailto:sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com]<br />
<br />
<br />
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 9:01 AM<br />
<br />
To: Giuseppe Fioccola <giuseppe.fioccola@huawei.com><br />
<br />
Cc: ippm@ietf.org<br />
<br />
Subject: Re: https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark-=
02.txt<br />
<br />
Hi Giuseppe,<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Let me thank you for the reply. Let me go through it and I will get back.<b=
r />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Regards,<br />
<br />
Sudhin<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 14:23:33 +0530 Giuseppe Fioccola wrote<br />
<br />
><br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Hi Sudhin,<br />
<br />
Thank you for your very useful review. You can find my answers inline tagge=
d as [GF].<br />
<br />
Please let me know if this clarify.<br />
<br />
If yes, you may want to publish your questions to the IPPM mailing list.<br=
 />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Regards,<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Giuseppe<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
From: sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com [mailto:sudhinjacob@rediffmail.com]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 11:04 AM<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
To: Giuseppe Fioccola <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Subject: REG: <br />
https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark-02.txt<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Hi Giuseppe,<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
I had gone through the draft. Could you please clarify the following.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
1. The BUM traffic is very significant in the network, could you please let=
 me know the reason for<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
excluding it. Excluding that the accuracy of traffic measurement is affecte=
d.<br />
<br />
[GF]: Agree, BUM traffic is significant and it is not excluded here. It can=
 be monitored by using the<br />
<br />
<br />
basic RFC 8321, since RFC 8321<br />
<br />
applies to point-to-point unicast flows and BUM traffic. The Multipoint alt=
ernate marking and its<br />
<br />
<br />
Clustering approach is valid for multipoint-to-multipoint unicast flows. I =
will highlight it better in<br />
<br />
<br />
the Introduction.<br />
<br />
<br />
Sudhin>>>>>>>>> yes it would be better, BUM traffic measurement is very muc=
h needed.<br />
<br />
<br />
2. Could you please let me know how the out of order packet are handled.<br=
 />
<br />
[GF]: Out of order packets happen and are handled by<br />
<br />
reducing consequently the available counting interval. These aspects are de=
scribed in Section 7. In<br />
<br />
<br />
particular three different possible constraints are considered: clock error=
 between<br />
<br />
network devices, network delay between measurement points and the misalignm=
ent between the marking<br />
<br />
<br />
source routers.<br />
<br />
<br />
Sudhin>>>>>> since there is no in band mechanism, how to know the when the =
flow started at router PE1 <br />
and when it reached PE2, there is no time stamp field. How to calculate the=
 delta.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
3. There will be ECMP paths, how this measurement will take care of it.<br =
/>
<br />
[GF]: ECMP paths are point-to-multipoint unicast flows so, by definition, t=
hey can be easily monitored<br />
<br />
<br />
with this technique. I will<br />
<br />
add a sentence on this in the Introduction or in Section 3.<br />
<br />
Sudhin>>>>>> Sure Kindly address that<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
4. How do we collect the data, the draft is silent of flow measurement.<br =
/>
<br />
[GF]: The draft aims to define especially the methodology as the extension =
of RFC 8321. However,<br />
<br />
<br />
Section 9 introduces the idea of<br />
<br />
an Intelligent Performance Management and suggests that an SDN Orchestrator=
 or a Controller can apply<br />
<br />
<br />
this methodology since it is aware of the network topology. In addition, Se=
ction 3 introduces the<br />
<br />
<br />
generalization of the flow definition.<br />
<br />
<br />
Sudhin>>> Color details are not mentioned.<br />
<br />
<br />
5. What will happen when re write rules are applied which gives an erroneou=
s output isnt it.<br />
<br />
[GF]: Yes, there is a transient time to wait once new rules are configured =
and it can be determined by<br />
<br />
<br />
the network management. I<br />
<br />
can add a sentence on this in Section 9.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Sudhin>> ok<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
6. In delay measurement, the draft didnt explain the start of the time meas=
urement, the networks<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
elements are not synced properly there will be a delta. Since there is no e=
xplicit signalling of<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
timestamp. could you please explain how this is done.<br />
<br />
[GF]: The delay measurements can be done similarly to RFC 8321. The marking=
 batches anchor the samples<br />
<br />
<br />
to a particular period so<br />
<br />
this is the time reference that can be used (each block of packets can also=
 be numbered if needed). As<br />
<br />
<br />
reported in Section 7, compared to RFC 8321, the only additional contributi=
on to consider is the<br />
<br />
<br />
misalignment between the marking source routers and, as<br />
<br />
you said, there is a delta that reduces the available measurement interval.=
 I can specify in the<br />
<br />
<br />
Section 8 that the timing aspects applies to delay measurements as well.<br=
 />
<br />
<br />
Sudhin>>>>>> please since there is no timestamp counter, it would be diffic=
ult to measure delay and <br />
delay variations.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Regards,<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Sudhin<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
 <br />
 <br />
<br>
--=_68ee17e16b338788587d4486de952e83--


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CC: "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>
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From: Matt Mathis <mattmathis@google.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 11:36:05 -0700
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To: Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de
Cc: "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>, "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <acm@research.att.com>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
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This was actually DOCSIS.  I am guessing that the shaping is done at the
CMTS, based on load signals from elsewhere in the network, because the
behaviors vary depending on where the sender is located.   This has all
sorts of interesting implications from a measurement perspective.

For one thing, it is potentially "below the horizon" for many current
techniques.

Thanks,
--MM--
The best way to predict the future is to create it.  - Alan Kay

We must not tolerate intolerance;
       however our response must be carefully measured:
            too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of
control;
            too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.


On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 1:19 AM <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de> wrote:

> Hi Matt,
>
>
>
> Thanks. My expertise is more with fixed network access. I don=E2=80=99t k=
now how
> access bandwidth is shared between LTE flows at a mobile access.
>
>
>
> On the fixed network side, I=E2=80=99d expect a policy control point to b=
e
> connected to some access line concentrator (be it optical, or copper base=
d
> =E2=80=93 coax I can=E2=80=99t tell). To my understanding the configurati=
ons having an
> impact at the fixed access are:
>
>    - The access shaper rate (settable)
>    - The access shaper burst size (likely a default value, depending on
>    phys. line card bandwidth)
>    - The queue depth (settable)
>    - AQM parameters (settable to some extent, if deployed)
>
>
>
> A burst which is below or equal to shaper burst size with a temporal
> pacing allowing to the shaper to recover for new tokens will likely see
> line speed at that bottleneck. That should hold in general.
>
>
>
> The shaper kicks in, if more than default shaper burst size packets arriv=
e
> within the given time frame. Then the queue-limit has an impact, if more
> than access shaper rate packets arrive. If the latency added by the
> building queue starts to control the measurement flow rate fast enough,
> loss should be avoided. But then you should be able to measure the shaper
> rate, I=E2=80=99d expect.
>
>
>
> While I doubt that this fits to what you=E2=80=99ve observed, it may stil=
l help to
> design a test which either measures available bandwidth or access bandwid=
th
> in the presence of a shaper:
>
>    - An initial burst may pass a shaper at line speed
>    - A measurement sending up to shaper rate CBR spaced packets which
>    consists of more than =E2=80=9Cdefault shaper burst size=E2=80=9D pack=
ets  should see no
>    added delay and be forwared by shaper rate (it would of course pass wi=
th up
>    to =E2=80=9Cdefault shaper burst size=E2=80=9D packets at that rate to=
o, but then the rate
>    measurement isn=E2=80=99t sustainable, if enough tokens are added betw=
een separate
>    measurement streams) .
>    - If the CBR spaced measurement flow sends more than default shaper
>    burst size packets with more than shaper rate, then a queue should bui=
ld at
>    the shaper.
>
>
>
> You mentioned a token bucket of 1 MB. I=E2=80=99d expect the shaper defau=
lt burst
> size to depend on the phys. line card bandwidth of the interface, where
> this shaper is configured. I=E2=80=99m not sure, whether to expect a sing=
le
> constant value for different implementations. I=E2=80=99d like to describ=
e the
> default shaper bandwidth by a strawman =E2=80=9C1ms@phys-interface-bandwi=
dth=E2=80=9D
> token bucket. Interfaces may be 1GE, 10GE or 100GE. I=E2=80=99d however n=
ot be
> surprised, if different generations of linecards from the same vendor
> support different values for the same physical port bandwidth, and
> different vendors may have different design philosophies.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Ruediger
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Von:* Matt Mathis <mattmathis@google.com>
> *Gesendet:* Donnerstag, 19. September 2019 23:18
> *An:* ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com>; Geib, R=C3=BCdiger <
> Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
> *Cc:* ippm@ietf.org
> *Betreff:* Fwd: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
>
>
>
> Ok, moving the thread to IPPM
>
>
>
> Some background, we (Measurement Lab) are testing a new transport (TCP)
> performance measurement tool, based on BBR-TCP.   I'm not ready to talk
> about results yet (well ok, it looks pretty good).    (BTW the BBR
> algorithm just happens to resemble the algorithm described
> in draft-morton-ippm-capcity-metric-method-00.)
>
>
>
> Anyhow we noticed some interesting performance features for number of ISP=
s
> in the US and Europe and I wanted to get some input for how these cases
> should be treated.
>
>
>
> One data point, a single trace saw ~94.5 Mbit/s for ~4 seconds,
> fluctuating performance ~75 Mb/s for ~1 second and then stable
> performance at ~83Mb/s for the rest of the 10 second test.    If I were t=
o
> guess this is probably a policer (shaper?) with a 1 MB token bucket and
> a ~83Mb/s token rate (these numbers are not corrected for header overhead=
s,
> which actually matter with this tool).  What is weird about it is that
> different ingress interfaces to the ISP (peers or serving locations)
> exhibit different parameters.
>
>
>
> Now the IPPM measurement question:   Is the bulk transport capacity of
> this link ~94.5 Mbit/s or ~83Mb/s?   Justify your answer....?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> --MM--
> The best way to predict the future is to create it.  - Alan Kay
>
> We must not tolerate intolerance;
>
>        however our response must be carefully measured:
>
>             too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of
> control;
>
>             too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.
>
>
>
> *Forwarded Conversation*
> *Subject: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?*
> ------------------------
>
>
>
> From: *Matt Mathis* <mattmathis@google.com>
> Date: Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 8:55 AM
> To: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com>
>
>
>
> We are seeing shapers  with huge bucket sizes, perhaps as larger or large=
r
> than 100 MB.
>
>
>
> These are prohibitive to test by default, but can have a huge impact in
> some common situations.  E.g. downloading software updates.
>
>
>
> An unconditional pass is not good, because some buckets are small.  What
> counts as large enough to be ok, and what "derating" is ok?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> --MM--
> The best way to predict the future is to create it.  - Alan Kay
>
> We must not tolerate intolerance;
>
>        however our response must be carefully measured:
>
>             too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of
> control;
>
>             too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.
>
>
>
> ----------
> From: *MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)* <acm@research.att.com>
> Date: Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 5:08 AM
> To: Matt Mathis <mattmathis@google.com>
> Cc: CIAVATTONE, LEN <lc9892@att.com>, Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <
> Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
>
>
>
> Hi Matt, currently cruising between Crete and Malta,
>
> with about 7 days of vacation remaining =E2=80=93 Adding my friend Len.
>
> You know R=C3=BCdiger. It appears I=E2=80=99ve forgotten how to typs in 2=
 weeks
>
> given the number of typos I=E2=80=99ve fixed so far...
>
>
>
> We=E2=80=99ve seen big buffers on a basic DOCSIS cable service (downlink =
>2 sec)
>
> but,
>
>   we have 1-way delay variation or RTT variation limits
>
>   when searching for the max rate, that don=E2=80=99t many packets
>
>   queue in the buffer
>
>
>
>   we want the status messages that result in rate adjustment to return
>
>  in a reasonable amount of time (50ms + RTT)
>
>
>
>   we usually search for 10 seconds, but if we go back and test with
>
>   a fixed rate, we can see the buffer growing if the rate is too high.
>
>
>
>   There will eventually be a discussion on the thresholds we use
>
>   in the search // load rate control algorithm. The copy of
>
>   Y.1540 I sent you has a simple one, we moved beyond that now
>
>   (see the slides I didn=E2=80=99t get to present at IETF).
>
>
>
>   There is value in having some of this discussion on IPPM-list,
>
>   so we get some **agenda time at IETF-106**
>
>
>
> We measure rate and performance, with some performance limits
>
> built-in.  Pass/Fail is another step, de-rating too (made sense
>
> with MBM =E2=80=9Ctarget_rate=E2=80=9D).
>
>
>
> Al
>
>
>
> ----------
> From: <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
> Date: Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 12:05 AM
> To: <acm@research.att.com>
> Cc: <lc9892@att.com>, <mattmathis@google.com>
>
>
>
> Hi Al,
>
>
>
> thanks for keeping me involved. I don=E2=80=99t have a precise answer and=
 doubt,
> that there will be a single universal truth.
>
>
>
> If the aim is only to determine the IP bandwidth of an access, then we
> aren=E2=80=99t interested in filling a buffer. Buffering events may occur=
, some of
> which are useful and to be expected, whereas others are not desired:
>
>
>
>    - Sender shaping behavior may matter (is traffic at the source CBR or
>    is it bursty)
>    - Random collisions should be tolerated at the access whose bandwidth
>    is to be measured.
>    - Limiting packet drop due to buffer overflow is a design aim or an
>    important part of the algorithm, I think.
>    - Shared media might create bursts. I=E2=80=99m not an expert in the a=
rea, but
>    there=E2=80=99s an =E2=80=9Cis bandwidth available=E2=80=9D check in s=
ome cases between a central
>    sender using a shared medium and the receivers connected. WiFi and may=
 be
>    other wireless equipment buffers packets also to optimize wireless res=
ource
>    optimization.
>    - It might be an idea to mark some flows by ECN, once there=E2=80=99s =
a guess
>    on a sending bitrate when to expect no or very little packet drop. Tod=
ay,
>    this is experimental. CE marks by an ECN capable device should be expe=
cted
>    roughly once queuing starts.
>
>
>
> Practically, the set-up should be configurable with commodity hard- and
> software and all metrics should be measurable at the receiver. Burstiness
> of traffic and a distinction between queuing events which are to be
> expected and (undesired) queue build up are the events to be distinguishe=
d.
> I hope that can be done with commodity hard- and software. I at least am
> not able to write down a simple metric distinguishing queues to be expect=
ed
> from (undesired) queue build up causing congestion. The hard- and softwar=
e
> to be used should be part of the solution, not part of the problem (burst=
y
> source traffic and timestamps with insufficient accuracy to detect queues
> are what I=E2=80=99d like to avoid).
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99d suggest to move discussion to the list.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> R=C3=BCdiger
>
>
>
> ----------
> From: *MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)* <acm@research.att.com>
> Date: Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 7:01 AM
> To: Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
> Cc: CIAVATTONE, LEN <lc9892@att.com>, mattmathis@google.com <
> mattmathis@google.com>
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99m catching-up with this thread again, but before I reply:
>
>
>
> *** Any objection to moving this discussion to IPPM-list ?? ***
>
>
>
> @Matt =E2=80=93 this is a question to you at this point...
>
>
>
> thanks,
>
> Al
>
>
>
> *From:* Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de [mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de]
> *Sent:* Monday, August 26, 2019 3:05 AM
> *To:* MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com>
> *Cc:* CIAVATTONE, LEN <lc9892@att.com>; mattmathis@google.com
> *Subject:* AW: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
>
>
>
> Hi Al,
>
>
>
> thanks for keeping me involved. I don=E2=80=99t have a precise answer and=
 doubt,
> that there will be a single universal truth.
>
>
>
> If the aim is only to determine the IP bandwidth of an access, then we
> aren=E2=80=99t interested in filling a buffer. Buffering events may occur=
, some of
> which are useful and to be expected, whereas others are not desired:
>
>
>
> -        Sender shaping behavior may matter (is traffic at the source CBR
> or is it bursty)
>
> -        Random collisions should be tolerated at the access whose
> bandwidth is to be measured.
>
> -        Limiting packet drop due to buffer overflow is a design aim or
> an important part of the algorithm, I think.
>
> -        Shared media might create bursts. I=E2=80=99m not an expert in t=
he area,
> but there=E2=80=99s an =E2=80=9Cis bandwidth available=E2=80=9D check in =
some cases between a
> central sender using a shared medium and the receivers connected. WiFi an=
d
> may be other wireless equipment buffers packets also to optimize wireless
> resource optimization.
>
> -        It might be an idea to mark some flows by ECN, once there=E2=80=
=99s a
> guess on a sending bitrate when to expect no or very little packet drop.
> Today, this is experimental. CE marks by an ECN capable device should be
> expected roughly once queuing starts.
>
>
>

--00000000000002901805933cb2bf
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">This was actually DOCSIS.=C2=A0 I am guessing that the sha=
ping is done at the CMTS, based on load signals from elsewhere in the netwo=
rk, because the behaviors vary depending on where the sender is located.=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0This has all sorts of interesting=C2=A0implications from a measur=
ement perspective.<div><br></div><div>For one thing, it is potentially &quo=
t;below the horizon&quot; for many current techniques.<br><div><br clear=3D=
"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gma=
il_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div>Thanks,</div>--MM--<br>The best way to predict the future is to create=
 it. =C2=A0- Alan Kay<br><br>We must not tolerate intolerance;</div><div di=
r=3D"ltr">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0however our response must be carefully=
 measured:=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too st=
rong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of control;</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too weak risks being mistaken for=
 tacit approval.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><=
/div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">O=
n Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 1:19 AM &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.=
de">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"DE">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-2116341669807811436WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Hi Matt,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks. My expertise is more wi=
th fixed network access. I don=E2=80=99t know how access bandwidth is share=
d between LTE flows at a mobile access.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On the fixed network side, I=E2=
=80=99d expect a policy control point to be connected to some access line c=
oncentrator (be it optical, or copper based =E2=80=93 coax I can=E2=80=99t =
tell). To my understanding
 the configurations having an impact at the fixed access are:<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"gmail-m_-2116341669807811436MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-=
left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The access shaper rate (settable)<u></u><u><=
/u></span></li><li class=3D"gmail-m_-2116341669807811436MsoListParagraph" s=
tyle=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The access shaper burst size =
(likely a default value, depending on phys. line card bandwidth)<u></u><u><=
/u></span></li><li class=3D"gmail-m_-2116341669807811436MsoListParagraph" s=
tyle=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The queue depth (settable)<u>=
</u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"gmail-m_-2116341669807811436MsoListPara=
graph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-US">AQM parameters (setta=
ble to some extent, if deployed)<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">A burst which is below or equal=
 to shaper burst size with a temporal pacing allowing to the shaper to reco=
ver for new tokens will likely see line speed at that bottleneck. That shou=
ld
 hold in general.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The shaper kicks in, if more th=
an default shaper burst size packets arrive within the given time frame. Th=
en the queue-limit has an impact, if more than access shaper rate packets a=
rrive.
 If the latency added by the building queue starts to control the measureme=
nt flow rate fast enough, loss should be avoided. But then you should be ab=
le to measure the shaper rate, I=E2=80=99d expect.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">While I doubt that this fits to=
 what you=E2=80=99ve observed, it may still help to design a test which eit=
her measures available bandwidth or access bandwidth in the presence of a s=
haper:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0cm" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"gmail-m_-2116341669807811436MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-=
left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-US">An initial burst may pass a shaper at line s=
peed<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"gmail-m_-2116341669807811436MsoL=
istParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-US">A measurement =
sending up to shaper rate CBR spaced packets which consists of more than =
=E2=80=9Cdefault shaper burst size=E2=80=9D packets =C2=A0should
 see no added delay and be forwared by shaper rate (it would of course pass=
 with up to =E2=80=9Cdefault shaper burst size=E2=80=9D packets at that rat=
e too, but then the rate measurement isn=E2=80=99t sustainable, if enough t=
okens are added between separate measurement streams) .<u></u><u></u></span=
></li><li class=3D"gmail-m_-2116341669807811436MsoListParagraph" style=3D"m=
argin-left:0cm"><span lang=3D"EN-US">If the CBR spaced measurement flow sen=
ds more than default shaper burst size packets with more than shaper rate, =
then a queue
 should build at the shaper.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">You mentioned a token bucket of=
 1 MB. I=E2=80=99d expect the shaper default burst size to depend on the ph=
ys. line card bandwidth of the interface, where this shaper is configured. =
I=E2=80=99m not sure,
 whether to expect a single constant value for different implementations. I=
=E2=80=99d like to describe the default shaper bandwidth by a strawman =E2=
=80=9C1ms@phys-interface-bandwidth=E2=80=9D token bucket. Interfaces may be=
 1GE, 10GE or 100GE. I=E2=80=99d however not be surprised, if different
 generations of linecards from the same vendor support different values for=
 the same physical port bandwidth, and different vendors may have different=
 design philosophies.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Ruediger<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Von:</b> Matt Mathis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mattma=
this@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mattmathis@google.com</a>&gt; <br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Donnerstag, 19. September 2019 23:18<br>
<b>An:</b> ALFRED C (AL) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@research.att.com" target=
=3D"_blank">acm@research.att.com</a>&gt;; Geib, R=C3=BCdiger &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.d=
e</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ippm@ietf.org=
</a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Fwd: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?=
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ok, moving the thread to IPPM<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Some background, we (Measurement=C2=A0Lab) are testi=
ng a new transport (TCP) performance measurement tool, based on BBR-TCP.=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0I&#39;m not ready to talk about results yet (well ok, it looks pr=
etty good).=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (BTW the BBR algorithm just happens to
 resemble the algorithm=C2=A0described in=C2=A0draft-morton-ippm-capcity-me=
tric-method-00.)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Anyhow=C2=A0we noticed some interesting performance =
features for number of ISPs in the US and Europe and I wanted to get some i=
nput for how these cases should be treated.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">One data point, a single trace saw ~94.5 Mbit/s for =
~4 seconds, fluctuating=C2=A0performance ~75 Mb/s for ~1 second and then st=
able performance=C2=A0at ~83Mb/s for the rest of the 10 second test.=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 If I were to guess this is probably a policer (shaper?)
 with a 1 MB token bucket and a=C2=A0~83Mb/s token rate (these numbers are =
not corrected for header overheads, which actually matter with this tool).=
=C2=A0 What is weird about it is that different ingress interfaces to the I=
SP (peers or serving=C2=A0locations) exhibit different
 parameters.=C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Now the IPPM measurement question:=C2=A0 =C2=A0Is th=
e bulk transport capacity of this link=C2=A0~94.5 Mbit/s or=C2=A0~83Mb/s?=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Justify your answer....?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--MM--<br>
The best way to predict the future is to create it. =C2=A0- Alan Kay<br>
<br>
We must not tolerate intolerance;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0however our response must=
 be carefully measured:=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too strong=
 would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of control;<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too weak r=
isks being mistaken for tacit approval.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:18pt">Forwarded Conversa=
tion</span></b><br>
<b>Subject: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?</b><br>
------------------------<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136)">From: <strong=
><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Matt Mathis</span></strong>=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mattmathis@=
google.com</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 8:55 AM<br>
To: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@research.att.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">acm@research.att.com</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We are seeing shapers=C2=A0 with huge bucket sizes, =
perhaps as larger or larger than 100 MB.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These are prohibitive to test by default, but can ha=
ve a huge impact in some common situations.=C2=A0 E.g. downloading software=
 updates.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">An unconditional pass is not good, because some buck=
ets are small.=C2=A0 What counts as large enough to be ok, and what &quot;d=
erating&quot; is ok?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--MM--<br>
The best way to predict the future is to create it. =C2=A0- Alan Kay<br>
<br>
We must not tolerate intolerance;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0however our response must=
 be carefully measured:=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too strong=
 would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of control;<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too weak r=
isks being mistaken for tacit approval.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136)">----------<br=
>
From: <strong><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">MORTON, ALFRED=
 C (AL)</span></strong> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@research.att.com" target=
=3D"_blank">acm@research.att.com</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 5:08 AM<br>
To: Matt Mathis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">mattmathis@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: CIAVATTONE, LEN &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lc9892@att.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>lc9892@att.com</a>&gt;, <a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=
=3D"_blank">
Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de=
" target=3D"_blank">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">Hi Matt, currently cruising between Crete and Ma=
lta,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">with about 7 days of vacation remaining =E2=80=
=93 Adding my friend Len.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">You know R=C3=BCdiger. It appears I=E2=80=99ve f=
orgotten how to typs in 2 weeks</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">given the number of typos I=E2=80=99ve fixed so =
far...</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">We=E2=80=99ve seen big buffers on a basic DOCSIS=
 cable service (downlink &gt;2 sec)</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">but,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0 we have 1-way delay variation or RTT vari=
ation limits</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0 when searching for the max rate, that don=
=E2=80=99t many packets
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0queue in the buffer</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0 we want the status messages that result i=
n rate adjustment to return</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0in a reasonable amount of time (50ms + RTT=
)</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0 we usually search for 10 seconds, but if =
we go back and test with
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0a fixed rate, we can see the buffer =
growing if the rate is too high.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0 There will eventually be a discussion on =
the thresholds we use</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0 in the search // load rate control algori=
thm. The copy of
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0Y.1540 I sent you has a simple one, =
we moved beyond that now</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0 (see the slides I didn=E2=80=99t get to p=
resent at IETF).</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0 There is value in having some of this dis=
cussion on IPPM-list,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0 so we get some *<b>agenda time at IETF-10=
6</b>*
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">We measure rate and performance, with some perfo=
rmance limits</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">built-in.=C2=A0 Pass/Fail is another step, de-ra=
ting too (made sense
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">with MBM =E2=80=9Ctarget_rate=E2=80=9D).</span><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">Al</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136)">----------<br=
>
From: &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">Rue=
diger.Geib@telekom.de</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 12:05 AM<br>
To: &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@research.att.com" target=3D"_blank">acm@resea=
rch.att.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lc9892@att.com" target=3D"_blank">lc9892@att.com<=
/a>&gt;, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mat=
tmathis@google.com</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi Al,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">thanks for keeping me involved.=
 I don=E2=80=99t have a precise answer and doubt, that there will be a sing=
le universal truth.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">If the aim is only to determine=
 the IP bandwidth of an access, then we aren=E2=80=99t interested in fillin=
g a buffer. Buffering events may occur, some of which are useful
 and to be expected, whereas others are not desired:</span><u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"gmail-m_-2116341669807811436m3104862068462157283msolistparagra=
ph">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Sender shaping behavior may matter (is traffic at the =
source CBR or is it bursty)</span><u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"gmail-m_-=
2116341669807811436m3104862068462157283msolistparagraph">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Random collisions should be tolerated at the access wh=
ose bandwidth is to be measured.</span><u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"gmai=
l-m_-2116341669807811436m3104862068462157283msolistparagraph">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Limiting packet drop due to buffer overflow is a desig=
n aim or an important part of the algorithm, I think.</span><u></u><u></u><=
/li><li class=3D"gmail-m_-2116341669807811436m3104862068462157283msolistpar=
agraph">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">Shared media might create bursts. I=E2=80=99m not an e=
xpert in the area, but there=E2=80=99s an =E2=80=9Cis bandwidth available=
=E2=80=9D check in some cases between a central sender using a shared mediu=
m and the receivers connected. WiFi and may be other wireless equipment
 buffers packets also to optimize wireless resource optimization.</span><u>=
</u><u></u></li><li class=3D"gmail-m_-2116341669807811436m31048620684621572=
83msolistparagraph">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">It might be an idea to mark some flows by ECN, once th=
ere=E2=80=99s a guess on a sending bitrate when to expect no or very little=
 packet drop. Today, this is experimental. CE marks by an ECN capable devic=
e should be expected roughly once queuing
 starts.</span><u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Practically, the set-up should =
be configurable with commodity hard- and software and all metrics should be=
 measurable at the receiver. Burstiness of traffic and
 a distinction between queuing events which are to be expected and (undesir=
ed) queue build up are the events to be distinguished. I hope that can be d=
one with commodity hard- and software. I at least am not able to write down=
 a simple metric distinguishing
 queues to be expected from (undesired) queue build up causing congestion. =
The hard- and software to be used should be part of the solution, not part =
of the problem (bursty source traffic and timestamps with insufficient accu=
racy to detect queues are what I=E2=80=99d
 like to avoid).</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I=E2=80=99d suggest to move dis=
cussion to the list.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">R=C3=BCdiger<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136)">----------<br=
>
From: <strong><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">MORTON, ALFRED=
 C (AL)</span></strong> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@research.att.com" target=
=3D"_blank">acm@research.att.com</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 7:01 AM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">Ruediger.=
Geib@telekom.de</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=
=3D"_blank">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: CIAVATTONE, LEN &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lc9892@att.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>lc9892@att.com</a>&gt;, <a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.com" target=3D=
"_blank">
mattmathis@google.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">mattmathis@google.com</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">I=E2=80=99m catching-up with this thread again, =
but before I reply:</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">*** Any objection to moving this discussion to I=
PPM-list ?? ***</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">@Matt =E2=80=93 this is a question to you at thi=
s point...</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">thanks,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;;color:black">Al</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-2116341669807811436_m_-723130847533367=
7527__MailEndCompose"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:&quot;Couri=
er New&quot;;color:black">=C2=A0</span></a><span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-l=
eft:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">
<a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=3D"_blank">Ruediger.Geib=
@telekom.de</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" target=
=3D"_blank">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 26, 2019 3:05 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acm@research.att.com=
" target=3D"_blank">acm@research.att.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> CIAVATTONE, LEN &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lc9892@att.com" target=3D"=
_blank">lc9892@att.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:mattmathis@google.com" target=3D"_blank">mattmathis@googl=
e.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> AW: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi Al,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">thanks for keeping me involved.=
 I don=E2=80=99t have a precise answer and doubt, that there will be a sing=
le universal truth.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">If the aim is only to determine=
 the IP bandwidth of an access, then we aren=E2=80=99t interested in fillin=
g a buffer. Buffering events may occur, some of which are useful
 and to be expected, whereas others are not desired:<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">-</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Sender shaping behavior may matter (is traffic =
at the source CBR or is it bursty)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">-</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Random collisions should be tolerated at the ac=
cess whose bandwidth is to be measured.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">-</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Limiting packet drop due to buffer overflow is =
a design aim or an important part of the algorithm, I think.<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">-</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Shared media might create bursts. I=E2=80=99m n=
ot an expert in the area, but there=E2=80=99s an =E2=80=9Cis bandwidth avai=
lable=E2=80=9D check in some cases between a central sender using a shared =
medium and the receivers connected. WiFi and may be other wireless
 equipment buffers packets also to optimize wireless resource optimization.=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:36pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US">-</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">It might be an idea to mark some flows by ECN, =
once there=E2=80=99s a guess on a sending bitrate when to expect no or very=
 little packet drop. Today, this is experimental. CE marks by an ECN capabl=
e device should be expected roughly once queuing
 starts.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p=
>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

--00000000000002901805933cb2bf--


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 16:53:09 -0700
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Subject: [ippm] Fwd:  I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-01.txt
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--000000000000d930a00593411faf
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Dear All,
in this update to the draft, we've introduced the new extension to STAMP,
Access Report TLV. The new TLV may be used by UE to report to UPF the
operational state of a network.
Your questions, comments, and suggestions are always welcome and much
appreciated.

Regards,
Greg

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 4:09 PM
Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-01.txt
To: <i-d-announce@ietf.org>
Cc: <ippm@ietf.org>



A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol
Optional Extensions
        Authors         : Greg Mirsky
                          Xiao Min
                          Guo Jun
                          Henrik Nydell
                          Richard Foote
                          Adi Masputra
        Filename        : draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-01.txt
        Pages           : 19
        Date            : 2019-09-20

Abstract:
   This document describes optional extensions to Simple Two-way Active
   Measurement Protocol (STAMP) which enable measurement performance
   metrics in addition to ones supported by the STAMP base
   specification.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-01
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-01

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-01


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

--000000000000d930a00593411faf
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear All,<div>in this update to the draft, we&#39;ve intro=
duced the new extension to STAMP, Access Report TLV. The new TLV may be use=
d by UE to report to UPF the operational state of a network.</div><div>Your=
 questions, comments, and suggestions are always welcome and much appreciat=
ed.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg<br><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">---------- Forwarded mess=
age ---------<br>From: <span dir=3D"auto">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-dr=
afts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: Fri, Sep 20=
, 2019 at 4:09 PM<br>Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-opti=
on-tlv-01.txt<br>To:  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org">i-d-anno=
unce@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>Cc:  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org">ippm@iet=
f.org</a>&gt;<br></div><br><br><br>
A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.<br>
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF.=
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:=
 Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol Optional Extensions<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Greg=
 Mirsky<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Xiao Min<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Guo Jun<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Henrik Nydell<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Richard Foote<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Adi Masputra<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-iet=
f-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-01.txt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:=
 19<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 :=
 2019-09-20<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes optional extensions to Simple Two-way =
Active<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Measurement Protocol (STAMP) which enable measurement performa=
nce<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0metrics in addition to ones supported by the STAMP base<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0specification.<br>
<br>
<br>
The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tl=
v/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/d=
raft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv/</a><br>
<br>
There are also htmlized versions available at:<br>
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-01"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iet=
f-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-01</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-opti=
on-tlv-01" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-01</a><br>
<br>
A diff from the previous version is available at:<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option=
-tlv-01" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?=
url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-01</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br>
<a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
ippm mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ippm@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm</a><br>
</div></div></div>

--000000000000d930a00593411faf--


From nobody Mon Sep 23 18:30:00 2019
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We are excited to announce that the ACM SIGCOMM Symposium on SDN 
Research (SOSR) 2020 will be co-located with the Open Compute Project 
(OCP) Global Summit.

New this year, in addition to traditional research papers, we are 
soliciting "Experience and Challenge" papers that provide a 
retrospective of the practical impacts of SDN deployments and outline 
next steps, challenges, and radical ideas for SDNs.

* Abstract registration: Nov 8, 2019
* Submission deadline: Nov 15, 2019
* More information: https://conferences.sigcomm.org/sosr/2020/calls.html

Submit your best papers!
-- 
Soudeh Ghorbani
Assistant Professor
Department of Computer Science
Johns Hopkins University
soudeh.net


From nobody Tue Sep 24 02:20:11 2019
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Fwd: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
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Matt,

access technology was the first question I wanted to ask yesterday, you
answered it in your last email.
Some more comments, questions, and observations:
- On-demand capacity allocation over time was/is common for mobile
cellular access technologies. Superposition of algorithms at various
layers (cellular access capacity management, buffering, users in the
cell and CCA) generates challenging traces.
- Some details on the measurement architecture could help: where did you
measure BTC: at the receiver, at the sender, at intermediate nodes? Time
granularity/resolution?
- Al made several good points in his replies; the overshooting of
BBR in Fig.5a of
http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~claypool/papers/driving-bbr/paper-final.pdf is a
hint that *if* there are buffers on the path, BBR will attempt to use
them. It's the sequence cache-memory-network: first you fill up all
local buffers, then the ones at intermediate nodes on the path, and only
later on you can measure the network capacity. Still, 4 seconds for the
initial 94.5 Mbit/s burst means truly large buffers...

You asked for an answer and justification - here we go:
Boiling down to the essence, your question (which capacity to prefer,
94.5 or 83Mb/s) imo addresses a weakness of RFC3148. In particular a
more accurate definition and refinement of "long term" could help.
Quoting RFC 3148: "The intuitive definition of BTC is the expected *long
term* average data rate (bits per second) of a single ideal TCP
implementation over the path in question". Is *long term* 4 seconds?
10s? 1000s?

My interpretation is that you meant a "time interval sufficiently large
for CCA to converge and reach a steady state" (D1). However, this
definition considers E2E control/CCA *only* and falls short of the
pitfall that Al and I attempted to address in RFC 7312 for delay
measurements in mobile network measurements: today's (access) networks
are stateful (the copper wire abstraction fails). This stateful network
policing interacts with the end-to-end CCA and originates artificial,
non-representative and non-repeatable measurement results. In DOCSIS
(that I did not measure) it seems that buffering is the main issue.

Some more reasoning on your BTC measurements:
- In your measurements, when BTC is measured at the sender, the informal
definition (D1) seems to hold true for a flow that lasts for slightly
less than 4 seconds. But do BTC measurements at the receiver's end yield
the same results? They may or may not.
- If the flow duration exceeds 4 seconds, the convergence criterion (as
seen by the sender) is no longer fulfilled: conditions change.
- If I'm asked if 94.5Mb/s or 83Mb/s is "the" path BTC, my decision
depends on the receiver view: (a) if some buffers on the network path
fill up, but the data rate at the receiver is only 83Mb/s, then the
network path's BTC is 83Mb/s. If there's a shaper on the path that
grants an initial "data credit" to the sender at full speed and only
later on shapes, i.e, the receiver can measure 94.5Mb/s for the first 4
seconds, then I'd agree to a BTC of 94.5Mb/s. However, only for the
first 4 second interval or for the first y Mbytes of data.

My point is that (unfortunately) the measurement of BTC for a network
path must be tied to use cases to be meaningful. I'm truly convinced
that with today's networks it's an illusion to have one single,
representative value "BTC is x Mb/s". Decoupling BTC from the network
path's state and its evolution with time may not be feasible.

Reasoning on objective BTC:
First, the measurement of stateful network BTC mandate to take into
consideration parameters like (a) the network path implementation,
configuration and behavior, (b) the measurement point (sender, receiver,
intermediate point), and (c) the measurement flow characteristics
(duration, total amount of data? Any parameter that influences on the
network state wrt the flow?). These are just examples, it may make sense
to structure and categorize these influencing parameters.

Second, the definition (D1) in RFC3148 could be refined. The *long term*
should be made explicit, covering two mandatory components: (a) CCA
(end-to-end control) reaching a steady state and (b) the network path
under observation reaching a steady state over (c) a well-specified
interval.

In order to be meaningful (and scientifically sound), BTC as an
intuitive metric should imho reflect a network path's ability to offer a
sustained transfer capacity under (almost) constant conditions for a
specified time interval (and/or for a specified amount of data?). Still,
architecture and implementation of today's (access) networks make it
challenging to identify those intervals during which we have constant
conditions.

So the key question is if one can provide a BTC definition that is
accurate, representative and simple/usable for the broad mass. (*)
Al and his co-authors have included some key aspect in the
capacity-metric draft, some aspects of this thread may be added there,
too. But BTC imo is different and even more complex to measure.

regards Joachim
PS: (*) Leaving aside uncertainty that we will never be able to handle
in measurements because of the capacity-sharing in today's access
networks (users-in-a-cell, cell usage).



On 19/09/2019 23:17, Matt Mathis wrote:
> Ok, moving the thread to IPPM
> 
> Some background, we (Measurement Lab) are testing a new transport (TCP)
> performance measurement tool, based on BBR-TCP.   I'm not ready to talk
> about results yet (well ok, it looks pretty good).    (BTW the BBR
> algorithm just happens to resemble the algorithm described
> in draft-morton-ippm-capcity-metric-method-00.)
> 
> Anyhow we noticed some interesting performance features for number of
> ISPs in the US and Europe and I wanted to get some input for how these
> cases should be treated.
> 
> One data point, a single trace saw ~94.5 Mbit/s for ~4 seconds,
> fluctuating performance ~75 Mb/s for ~1 second and then stable
> performance at ~83Mb/s for the rest of the 10 second test.    If I were
> to guess this is probably a policer (shaper?) with a 1 MB token bucket
> and a ~83Mb/s token rate (these numbers are not corrected for header
> overheads, which actually matter with this tool).  What is weird about
> it is that different ingress interfaces to the ISP (peers or
> serving locations) exhibit different parameters.  
> 
> Now the IPPM measurement question:   Is the bulk transport capacity of
> this link ~94.5 Mbit/s or ~83Mb/s?   Justify your answer....?
> 
> Thanks,
> --MM--
> The best way to predict the future is to create it.  - Alan Kay
> 
> We must not tolerate intolerance;
>        however our response must be carefully measured: 
>             too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of
> control;
>             too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.
> 
> Forwarded Conversation
> Subject: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
> ------------------------
> 
> From: *Matt Mathis* <mattmathis@google.com <mailto:mattmathis@google.com>>
> Date: Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 8:55 AM
> To: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com
> <mailto:acm@research.att.com>>
> 
> 
> We are seeing shapers  with huge bucket sizes, perhaps as larger or
> larger than 100 MB.
> 
> These are prohibitive to test by default, but can have a huge impact in
> some common situations.  E.g. downloading software updates.
> 
> An unconditional pass is not good, because some buckets are small.  What
> counts as large enough to be ok, and what "derating" is ok?
> 
> Thanks,
> --MM--
> The best way to predict the future is to create it.  - Alan Kay
> 
> We must not tolerate intolerance;
>        however our response must be carefully measured: 
>             too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of
> control;
>             too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.
> 
> 
> ----------
> From: *MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)* <acm@research.att.com
> <mailto:acm@research.att.com>>
> Date: Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 5:08 AM
> To: Matt Mathis <mattmathis@google.com <mailto:mattmathis@google.com>>
> Cc: CIAVATTONE, LEN <lc9892@att.com <mailto:lc9892@att.com>>,
> Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
> <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>>
> 
> 
> Hi Matt, currently cruising between Crete and Malta,____
> 
> with about 7 days of vacation remaining – Adding my friend Len.____
> 
> You know Rüdiger. It appears I’ve forgotten how to typs in 2 weeks____
> 
> given the number of typos I’ve fixed so far...____
> 
> __ __
> 
> We’ve seen big buffers on a basic DOCSIS cable service (downlink >2 sec)____
> 
> but,____
> 
>   we have 1-way delay variation or RTT variation limits____
> 
>   when searching for the max rate, that don’t many packets ____
> 
>   queue in the buffer____
> 
> __ __
> 
>   we want the status messages that result in rate adjustment to return____
> 
>  in a reasonable amount of time (50ms + RTT)____
> 
> __ __
> 
>   we usually search for 10 seconds, but if we go back and test with ____
> 
>   a fixed rate, we can see the buffer growing if the rate is too high.____
> 
> __ __
> 
>   There will eventually be a discussion on the thresholds we use____
> 
>   in the search // load rate control algorithm. The copy of ____
> 
>   Y.1540 I sent you has a simple one, we moved beyond that now____
> 
>   (see the slides I didn’t get to present at IETF).____
> 
> __ __
> 
>   There is value in having some of this discussion on IPPM-list,____
> 
>   so we get some **agenda time at IETF-106** ____
> 
> __ __
> 
> We measure rate and performance, with some performance limits____
> 
> built-in.  Pass/Fail is another step, de-rating too (made sense ____
> 
> with MBM “target_rate”).____
> 
> __ __
> 
> Al____
> 
> 
> 
> ----------
> From: <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>>
> Date: Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 12:05 AM
> To: <acm@research.att.com <mailto:acm@research.att.com>>
> Cc: <lc9892@att.com <mailto:lc9892@att.com>>, <mattmathis@google.com
> <mailto:mattmathis@google.com>>
> 
> 
> Hi Al,____
> 
> __ __
> 
> thanks for keeping me involved. I don’t have a precise answer and doubt,
> that there will be a single universal truth. ____
> 
> __ __
> 
> If the aim is only to determine the IP bandwidth of an access, then we
> aren’t interested in filling a buffer. Buffering events may occur, some
> of which are useful and to be expected, whereas others are not desired:____
> 
> __ __
> 
>   * Sender shaping behavior may matter (is traffic at the source CBR or
>     is it bursty)____
>   * Random collisions should be tolerated at the access whose bandwidth
>     is to be measured.____
>   * Limiting packet drop due to buffer overflow is a design aim or an
>     important part of the algorithm, I think.____
>   * Shared media might create bursts. I’m not an expert in the area, but
>     there’s an “is bandwidth available” check in some cases between a
>     central sender using a shared medium and the receivers connected.
>     WiFi and may be other wireless equipment buffers packets also to
>     optimize wireless resource optimization.____
>   * It might be an idea to mark some flows by ECN, once there’s a guess
>     on a sending bitrate when to expect no or very little packet drop.
>     Today, this is experimental. CE marks by an ECN capable device
>     should be expected roughly once queuing starts.____
> 
> __ __
> 
> Practically, the set-up should be configurable with commodity hard- and
> software and all metrics should be measurable at the receiver.
> Burstiness of traffic and a distinction between queuing events which are
> to be expected and (undesired) queue build up are the events to be
> distinguished. I hope that can be done with commodity hard- and
> software. I at least am not able to write down a simple metric
> distinguishing queues to be expected from (undesired) queue build up
> causing congestion. The hard- and software to be used should be part of
> the solution, not part of the problem (bursty source traffic and
> timestamps with insufficient accuracy to detect queues are what I’d like
> to avoid).____
> 
> __ __
> 
> I’d suggest to move discussion to the list. ____
> 
> __ __
> 
> Regards,____
> 
> __ __
> 
> Rüdiger____
> 
> 
> 
> ----------
> From: *MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)* <acm@research.att.com
> <mailto:acm@research.att.com>>
> Date: Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 7:01 AM
> To: Ruediger.Geib@telekom..de <mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
> <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>>
> Cc: CIAVATTONE, LEN <lc9892@att.com <mailto:lc9892@att.com>>,
> mattmathis@google.com <mailto:mattmathis@google.com>
> <mattmathis@google.com <mailto:mattmathis@google.com>>
> 
> 
> I’m catching-up with this thread again, but before I reply:____
> 
> __ __
> 
> *** Any objection to moving this discussion to IPPM-list ?? ***____
> 
> __ __
> 
> @Matt – this is a question to you at this point...____
> 
> __ __
> 
> thanks,____
> 
> Al____
> 
> __ __
> 
> *From:*Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
> [mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>]
> *Sent:* Monday, August 26, 2019 3:05 AM
> *To:* MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com
> <mailto:acm@research.att.com>>
> *Cc:* CIAVATTONE, LEN <lc9892@att.com <mailto:lc9892@att.com>>;
> mattmathis@google.com <mailto:mattmathis@google.com>
> *Subject:* AW: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?____
> 
> __ __
> 
> Hi Al,____
> 
> __ __
> 
> thanks for keeping me involved. I don’t have a precise answer and doubt,
> that there will be a single universal truth. ____
> 
> __ __
> 
> If the aim is only to determine the IP bandwidth of an access, then we
> aren’t interested in filling a buffer. Buffering events may occur, some
> of which are useful and to be expected, whereas others are not desired:____
> 
> __ __
> 
> __-        __Sender shaping behavior may matter (is traffic at the
> source CBR or is it bursty)____
> 
> __-        __Random collisions should be tolerated at the access whose
> bandwidth is to be measured.____
> 
> __-        __Limiting packet drop due to buffer overflow is a design aim
> or an important part of the algorithm, I think.____
> 
> __-        __Shared media might create bursts. I’m not an expert in the
> area, but there’s an “is bandwidth available” check in some cases
> between a central sender using a shared medium and the receivers
> connected. WiFi and may be other wireless equipment buffers packets also
> to optimize wireless resource optimization.____
> 
> __-        __It might be an idea to mark some flows by ECN, once there’s
> a guess on a sending bitrate when to expect no or very little packet
> drop. Today, this is experimental. CE marks by an ECN capable device
> should be expected roughly once queuing starts.____
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
> 



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Thread-Topic: [ippm] Fwd: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Fwd: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
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From: Akshaya Nadahalli <akshaya.nadahalli@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 18:01:34 +0530
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To: tpauly=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
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Support

Regards,
Akshaya N

=EF=BB=BFOn 9/11/19, 9:41 PM, "tpauly@apple.com on behalf of Tommy Pauly" <
> tpauly@apple.com> wrote:
>
>     Hello IPPM,
>
>     This email starts a working group adoption call for
> draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options. This document defines the IPv=
6
> option encapsulation for IOAM data. This document was discussed with the
> 6man WG, which advised that the work be done in ippm, with review by 6man=
.
>
>     The documents are available here:
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-optio=
ns/
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options-02
>
>     Please reply to this email by Wednesday, September 25, with your inpu=
t
> on whether or not the WG should adopt this document.
>
>     Best,
>     Tommy (as IPPM co-chair)
>
>

--00000000000028772305934bb800
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Support</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>A=
kshaya N</div><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=EF=BB=BFOn 9/11/19, 9:41 PM, &quot;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:tpauly@apple.com" target=3D"_blank">tpauly@apple.com</a> on beh=
alf of Tommy Pauly&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tpauly@apple.com" target=3D"=
_blank">tpauly@apple.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hello IPPM,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This email starts a working group adoption call for draft-ioa=
metal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options. This document defines the IPv6 option en=
capsulation for IOAM data. This document was discussed with the 6man WG, wh=
ich advised that the work be done in ippm, with review by 6man.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The documents are available here:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ioametal-ip=
pm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://da=
tatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options/</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ioametal-ippm-6m=
an-ioam-ipv6-options-02" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools=
.ietf.org/html/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options-02</a><br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Please reply to this email by Wednesday, September 25, with y=
our input on whether or not the WG should adopt this document.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Best,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tommy (as IPPM co-chair)<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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From: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 08:55:06 -0700
Message-ID: <CALx6S35QXuxF9B4iyAfW75LpoJZNGOxU=jJVPLbKn2CeOipjKg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net>, draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org,  6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
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I support this draft for WG adoption. We implemented the option at
hackathon #104 as reported to the WG.

Some replies to Greg points below.

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 11:56 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Authors, et al.,
> I have a number of questions on this draft and hope you'll find time to c=
larify some aspects of iOAM encapsulation in IPv6 EHs:
>
> format of both Hop-by-Hop Options header and Destination Options header, =
as defined in RFC 8200, allow the length of Options field in the header to =
be no more than 2K - 2 octets. I consider that to be an important limitatio=
n of the proposed encapsulation method but I don't find that being discusse=
d in the document.

What is the use case for having IOAM data consuming more than 2K bytes?

> Section 3 of your draft defines iOAM Option encapsulation format. How thi=
s encapsulation relates to the encapsulation of IPv6 options for the Hop-by=
-Hop Options header and Destination Options header?

Section 3 describes an option format for IOAM data using canonical
format HBH and DO options. The first two bytes of Option Type and
Option Data Len are straight out of RFC8200.

> Section 4.2 in RFC 8200 defines four types of actions to be associated wi=
th the option. Which of these and in what scenarios may be used to carry iO=
AM information in IPv6 packet?

Section 5 shows shows the act bits in requested IANA assignment to be
00, per RFC8200 "00 - skip over this option and continue processing
the header.". That is appropriate for IOAM.

> Also, in Section 4.2 defined on-bit long flag in the Option Type field to=
 indicate whether option data may change en route. How this flag will be us=
ed when iOAM option data encapsulated in IPv6 EHs?

It's used the same way as in other options. If the chg bit is set in
the option then the Option data can change in flight, if it's not set
then the data can't change. I suspect most use cases for IOAM will use
the modifiable option.

> Further, the question of choosing a padding option - Pad1 or PadN? Which =
these two to be used for iOAM data in IPv6 EHs?
>
Either can be used. The type of option padding is orthogonal to any
particular option. RFC8504 describes limits on option padding that
might be applied, but these are generic and don't need to be mentioned
in this draft.

> With this number of technical issues being underspecified, I don't suppor=
t the adoption of the draft by IPPM WG. And I feel that it would be more ap=
propriate to ask 6man WG to host this work.

I don't believe it's necessary for this to be in 6man. Definition a
new IPv6 option that is compliant with RFC8200 is pretty
straightforward.

Tom

>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 9:11 AM Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.i=
etf.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hello IPPM,
>>
>> This email starts a working group adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-=
6man-ioam-ipv6-options. This document defines the IPv6 option encapsulation=
 for IOAM data. This document was discussed with the 6man WG, which advised=
 that the work be done in ippm, with review by 6man.
>>
>> The documents are available here:
>>
>> https://datatracker.ietf..org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-opt=
ions/
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options-0=
2
>>
>> Please reply to this email by Wednesday, September 25, with your input o=
n whether or not the WG should adopt this document.
>>
>> Best,
>> Tommy (as IPPM co-chair)
>> _______________________________________________
>> ippm mailing list
>> ippm@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 10:19:04 -0700
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmUe8XXi4b-teDcvW22=sKC7yCBHC9wK2sTWb4Pe9gmFEw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org,  Tal Mizrahi <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com>, IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>,  IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Barry Leiba's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: (with DISCUSS)
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Hi Barry,
thank you for your suggestions. Based on your comments, the authors decided
to add a new Operational Consideration section:
NEW TEXT:
5.  Operational Considerations

   STAMP is intended to be used on production networks to enable the
   operator to assess service level agreements based on packet delay,
   delay variation, and loss.  Using STAMP over the Internet, especially
   when STAMP test packets are transmitted with the destination UDP port
   number from the User Ports range, the possible impact of the STAMP
   test packets MUST be thoroughly analyzed.  The use of STAMP for each
   case MUST be agreed by users of nodes hosting the Session-Sender and
   Session-Reflector before starting the STAMP test session.

   Also, the use of the well-known port number as the destination UDP
   port number in STAMP test packets transmitted by a Session-Sender
   would not impede the ability to measure performance in an Equal Cost
   Multipath environment and analysis in Section 5.3 [RFC8545] fully
   applies to STAMP.

As the new section includes the discussion of using port numbers from the
User Ports range, the Security Considerations section has been updated to
avoid the duplication (please see the attached working version and the
diff).

Much appreciate your comments on the updated text.

Regards,
Greg

On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:51 PM Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org> wrote:

> Thanks, Greg; I look forward to it.
>
> b
>
> On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 8:35 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Barry,
> > thank you for the clarification. Yes, I agree that a new section can
> state it more clearly and give sufficient examples, as you've suggested.
> > I'll work on it and will share when it is ready.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Greg
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:15 PM Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi, Greg, and thanks for the response.
> >>
> >> I think a minor rephrasing of the requirement isn't enough, really.
> >> As I understand it now, after other discussion, it's not that you need
> >> agreement from the users, but that you should put a paragraph (or
> >> maybe a separate section, to highlight the point) that says that this
> >> is not intended for use on the open Internet nor on production
> >> networks, and gives examples of what it *is* intended for... perhaps
> >> test networks, production networks during advertised maintenance
> >> windows, that sort of thing.  And then you don't need to say that the
> >> network's users need to agree, but simply that they need to be aware
> >> that performance testing will be happening during period X, and that
> >> disruptions to normal network operation are possible.  You'd need to
> >> come up with text that the working group agrees with, of course, but I
> >> think that if you do it will address my concern as well as some of the
> >> others that were raised.
> >>
> >> Does that make sense?
> >>
> >> Barry
> >>
> >> On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:01 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Hi Barry,
> >> > thank you for your pointed question. Please find my explanation and
> the proposed updated below under the GIM>> tag.
> >> >
> >> > Regards,
> >> > Greg
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 9:53 AM Barry Leiba via Datatracker <
> noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for
> >> >> draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss
> >> >>
> >> >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> >> >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut
> this
> >> >> introductory paragraph, however.)
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Please refer to
> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> >> >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> DISCUSS:
> >> >>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm sure this will be easy to either explain to me or re-phrase:
> >> >>
> >> >> Sections 4 and 6 both say something like "MUST be agreed by all
> users of the
> >> >> network".  What does that really mean?  How is it remotely possible
> to get
> >> >> agreement from all users of your network?  How is it remotely
> possible that
> >> >> they could understand what you're asking them to agree to?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > GIM>> Yes, looking at the bigger picture, at the Internet rather than
> only at the domain where the test will be performed makes such condition
> unattainable. Would s/network/network domain where the test is planned/  so
> that it reads as:
> >> >
> >> > ... MUST be agreed by all users on the network domain where the test
> is planned ...
> >> >
> >> > make it clearer and the number of parties involved reasonable,
> practical?
> >> > As for what the could be the question users will be asked, I think
> that it should verify whether the application that has the port number
> assigned is active as the same number will be used as the destination port
> number in the STAMP test.
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Barry,<div>thank you for your suggestions. Based on you=
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ets MUST be thoroughly analyzed.=C2=A0 The use of STAMP for each<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0case MUST be agreed by users of nodes hosting the Session-Sender and<=
br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Session-Reflector before starting the STAMP test session.<b=
r><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Also, the use of the well-known port number as the desti=
nation UDP<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0port number in STAMP test packets transmitted by=
 a Session-Sender<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0would not impede the ability to measure p=
erformance in an Equal Cost<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Multipath environment and analy=
sis in Section 5.3 [RFC8545] fully<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0applies to STAMP.<br></d=
iv><div><br></div><div>As the new section includes the discussion of using =
port numbers from the User Ports range, the Security Considerations section=
 has been updated to avoid the duplication (please see the attached working=
 version and the diff).</div><div><br></div><div>Much appreciate your comme=
nts on the updated text.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</=
div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_at=
tr">On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:51 PM Barry Leiba &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:barry=
leiba@computer.org">barryleiba@computer.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Thanks, Greg; I look forward to =
it.<br>
<br>
b<br>
<br>
On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 8:35 PM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirs=
ky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hi Barry,<br>
&gt; thank you for the clarification. Yes, I agree that a new section can s=
tate it more clearly and give sufficient examples, as you&#39;ve suggested.=
<br>
&gt; I&#39;ll work on it and will share when it is ready.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Greg<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:15 PM Barry Leiba &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:barr=
yleiba@computer.org" target=3D"_blank">barryleiba@computer.org</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi, Greg, and thanks for the response.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I think a minor rephrasing of the requirement isn&#39;t enough, re=
ally.<br>
&gt;&gt; As I understand it now, after other discussion, it&#39;s not that =
you need<br>
&gt;&gt; agreement from the users, but that you should put a paragraph (or<=
br>
&gt;&gt; maybe a separate section, to highlight the point) that says that t=
his<br>
&gt;&gt; is not intended for use on the open Internet nor on production<br>
&gt;&gt; networks, and gives examples of what it *is* intended for... perha=
ps<br>
&gt;&gt; test networks, production networks during advertised maintenance<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; windows, that sort of thing.=C2=A0 And then you don&#39;t need to =
say that the<br>
&gt;&gt; network&#39;s users need to agree, but simply that they need to be=
 aware<br>
&gt;&gt; that performance testing will be happening during period X, and th=
at<br>
&gt;&gt; disruptions to normal network operation are possible.=C2=A0 You&#3=
9;d need to<br>
&gt;&gt; come up with text that the working group agrees with, of course, b=
ut I<br>
&gt;&gt; think that if you do it will address my concern as well as some of=
 the<br>
&gt;&gt; others that were raised.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Does that make sense?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Barry<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:01 PM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Hi Barry,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; thank you for your pointed question. Please find my explanati=
on and the proposed updated below under the GIM&gt;&gt; tag.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Greg<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 9:53 AM Barry Leiba via Datatracker &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf.org</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for=
<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; When responding, please keep the subject line intact and =
reply to all<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel fr=
ee to cut this<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/stat=
ement/discuss-criteria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://w=
ww.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT posit=
ions.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; The document, along with other ballot positions, can be f=
ound here:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ip=
pm-stamp/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; ---------------------------------------------------------=
-------------<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; DISCUSS:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; ---------------------------------------------------------=
-------------<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; I&#39;m sure this will be easy to either explain to me or=
 re-phrase:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Sections 4 and 6 both say something like &quot;MUST be ag=
reed by all users of the<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; network&quot;.=C2=A0 What does that really mean?=C2=A0 Ho=
w is it remotely possible to get<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; agreement from all users of your network?=C2=A0 How is it=
 remotely possible that<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; they could understand what you&#39;re asking them to agre=
e to?<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; Yes, looking at the bigger picture, at the Intern=
et rather than only at the domain where the test will be performed makes su=
ch condition unattainable. Would s/network/network domain where the test is=
 planned/=C2=A0 so that it reads as:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; ... MUST be agreed by all users on the network domain where t=
he test is planned ...<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; make it clearer and the number of parties involved reasonable=
, practical?<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; As for what the could be the question users will be asked, I =
think that it should verify whether the application that has the port numbe=
r assigned is active as the same number will be used as the destination por=
t number in the STAMP test.<br>
</blockquote></div>

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--0000000000005d2f3805934fbc9d--


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From: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 13:29:33 -0400
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To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org,  Tal Mizrahi <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com>, IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>,  IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Barry Leiba's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: (with DISCUSS)
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Greg, this looks good, and many thanks for that!  Minor typo:

   Using STAMP over the Internet, especially
   when STAMP test packets are transmitted with the destination UDP port
   number from the User Ports range, the possible impact of the STAMP
   test packets MUST be thoroughly analyzed.

It should say "When using STAMP over the Internet..."

I'll clear the DISCUSS when this is posted as a draft revision.

Barry

On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 1:19 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Barry,
> thank you for your suggestions. Based on your comments, the authors decided to add a new Operational Consideration section:
> NEW TEXT:
> 5.  Operational Considerations
>
>    STAMP is intended to be used on production networks to enable the
>    operator to assess service level agreements based on packet delay,
>    delay variation, and loss.  Using STAMP over the Internet, especially
>    when STAMP test packets are transmitted with the destination UDP port
>    number from the User Ports range, the possible impact of the STAMP
>    test packets MUST be thoroughly analyzed.  The use of STAMP for each
>    case MUST be agreed by users of nodes hosting the Session-Sender and
>    Session-Reflector before starting the STAMP test session.
>
>    Also, the use of the well-known port number as the destination UDP
>    port number in STAMP test packets transmitted by a Session-Sender
>    would not impede the ability to measure performance in an Equal Cost
>    Multipath environment and analysis in Section 5.3 [RFC8545] fully
>    applies to STAMP.
>
> As the new section includes the discussion of using port numbers from the User Ports range, the Security Considerations section has been updated to avoid the duplication (please see the attached working version and the diff).
>
> Much appreciate your comments on the updated text.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:51 PM Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, Greg; I look forward to it.
>>
>> b
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 8:35 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Barry,
>> > thank you for the clarification. Yes, I agree that a new section can state it more clearly and give sufficient examples, as you've suggested.
>> > I'll work on it and will share when it is ready.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Greg
>> >
>> > On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:15 PM Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi, Greg, and thanks for the response.
>> >>
>> >> I think a minor rephrasing of the requirement isn't enough, really.
>> >> As I understand it now, after other discussion, it's not that you need
>> >> agreement from the users, but that you should put a paragraph (or
>> >> maybe a separate section, to highlight the point) that says that this
>> >> is not intended for use on the open Internet nor on production
>> >> networks, and gives examples of what it *is* intended for... perhaps
>> >> test networks, production networks during advertised maintenance
>> >> windows, that sort of thing.  And then you don't need to say that the
>> >> network's users need to agree, but simply that they need to be aware
>> >> that performance testing will be happening during period X, and that
>> >> disruptions to normal network operation are possible.  You'd need to
>> >> come up with text that the working group agrees with, of course, but I
>> >> think that if you do it will address my concern as well as some of the
>> >> others that were raised.
>> >>
>> >> Does that make sense?
>> >>
>> >> Barry
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:01 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Hi Barry,
>> >> > thank you for your pointed question. Please find my explanation and the proposed updated below under the GIM>> tag.
>> >> >
>> >> > Regards,
>> >> > Greg
>> >> >
>> >> > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 9:53 AM Barry Leiba via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for
>> >> >> draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss
>> >> >>
>> >> >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> >> >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
>> >> >> introductory paragraph, however.)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
>> >> >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> DISCUSS:
>> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I'm sure this will be easy to either explain to me or re-phrase:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Sections 4 and 6 both say something like "MUST be agreed by all users of the
>> >> >> network".  What does that really mean?  How is it remotely possible to get
>> >> >> agreement from all users of your network?  How is it remotely possible that
>> >> >> they could understand what you're asking them to agree to?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > GIM>> Yes, looking at the bigger picture, at the Internet rather than only at the domain where the test will be performed makes such condition unattainable. Would s/network/network domain where the test is planned/  so that it reads as:
>> >> >
>> >> > ... MUST be agreed by all users on the network domain where the test is planned ...
>> >> >
>> >> > make it clearer and the number of parties involved reasonable, practical?
>> >> > As for what the could be the question users will be asked, I think that it should verify whether the application that has the port number assigned is active as the same number will be used as the destination port number in the STAMP test.


From nobody Tue Sep 24 13:22:13 2019
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Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-08.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol
        Authors         : Greg Mirsky
                          Guo Jun
                          Henrik Nydell
                          Richard Foote
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-08.txt
	Pages           : 15
	Date            : 2019-09-24

Abstract:
   This document describes a Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol
   which enables the measurement of both one-way and round-trip
   performance metrics like delay, delay variation, and packet loss.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-08
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-08

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-08


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 13:29:30 -0700
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To: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org,  Tal Mizrahi <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com>, IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>,  IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
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--000000000000508a1205935265dd
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi Barry,
great catch, thank you!
I've posted the new version
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-08>.

Kind regards,
Greg

On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 10:29 AM Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
wrote:

> Greg, this looks good, and many thanks for that!  Minor typo:
>
>    Using STAMP over the Internet, especially
>    when STAMP test packets are transmitted with the destination UDP port
>    number from the User Ports range, the possible impact of the STAMP
>    test packets MUST be thoroughly analyzed.
>
> It should say "When using STAMP over the Internet..."
>
> I'll clear the DISCUSS when this is posted as a draft revision.
>
> Barry
>
> On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 1:19 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Barry,
> > thank you for your suggestions. Based on your comments, the authors
> decided to add a new Operational Consideration section:
> > NEW TEXT:
> > 5.  Operational Considerations
> >
> >    STAMP is intended to be used on production networks to enable the
> >    operator to assess service level agreements based on packet delay,
> >    delay variation, and loss.  Using STAMP over the Internet, especially
> >    when STAMP test packets are transmitted with the destination UDP port
> >    number from the User Ports range, the possible impact of the STAMP
> >    test packets MUST be thoroughly analyzed.  The use of STAMP for each
> >    case MUST be agreed by users of nodes hosting the Session-Sender and
> >    Session-Reflector before starting the STAMP test session.
> >
> >    Also, the use of the well-known port number as the destination UDP
> >    port number in STAMP test packets transmitted by a Session-Sender
> >    would not impede the ability to measure performance in an Equal Cost
> >    Multipath environment and analysis in Section 5.3 [RFC8545] fully
> >    applies to STAMP.
> >
> > As the new section includes the discussion of using port numbers from
> the User Ports range, the Security Considerations section has been updated
> to avoid the duplication (please see the attached working version and the
> diff).
> >
> > Much appreciate your comments on the updated text.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Greg
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:51 PM Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks, Greg; I look forward to it.
> >>
> >> b
> >>
> >> On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 8:35 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Hi Barry,
> >> > thank you for the clarification. Yes, I agree that a new section can
> state it more clearly and give sufficient examples, as you've suggested.
> >> > I'll work on it and will share when it is ready.
> >> >
> >> > Regards,
> >> > Greg
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:15 PM Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi, Greg, and thanks for the response.
> >> >>
> >> >> I think a minor rephrasing of the requirement isn't enough, really.
> >> >> As I understand it now, after other discussion, it's not that you
> need
> >> >> agreement from the users, but that you should put a paragraph (or
> >> >> maybe a separate section, to highlight the point) that says that this
> >> >> is not intended for use on the open Internet nor on production
> >> >> networks, and gives examples of what it *is* intended for... perhaps
> >> >> test networks, production networks during advertised maintenance
> >> >> windows, that sort of thing.  And then you don't need to say that the
> >> >> network's users need to agree, but simply that they need to be aware
> >> >> that performance testing will be happening during period X, and that
> >> >> disruptions to normal network operation are possible.  You'd need to
> >> >> come up with text that the working group agrees with, of course, but
> I
> >> >> think that if you do it will address my concern as well as some of
> the
> >> >> others that were raised.
> >> >>
> >> >> Does that make sense?
> >> >>
> >> >> Barry
> >> >>
> >> >> On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:01 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Hi Barry,
> >> >> > thank you for your pointed question. Please find my explanation
> and the proposed updated below under the GIM>> tag.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Regards,
> >> >> > Greg
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 9:53 AM Barry Leiba via Datatracker <
> noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot position for
> >> >> >> draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to
> all
> >> >> >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to
> cut this
> >> >> >> introductory paragraph, however.)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Please refer to
> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> >> >> >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found
> here:
> >> >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> >> DISCUSS:
> >> >> >>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I'm sure this will be easy to either explain to me or re-phrase:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Sections 4 and 6 both say something like "MUST be agreed by all
> users of the
> >> >> >> network".  What does that really mean?  How is it remotely
> possible to get
> >> >> >> agreement from all users of your network?  How is it remotely
> possible that
> >> >> >> they could understand what you're asking them to agree to?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > GIM>> Yes, looking at the bigger picture, at the Internet rather
> than only at the domain where the test will be performed makes such
> condition unattainable. Would s/network/network domain where the test is
> planned/  so that it reads as:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > ... MUST be agreed by all users on the network domain where the
> test is planned ...
> >> >> >
> >> >> > make it clearer and the number of parties involved reasonable,
> practical?
> >> >> > As for what the could be the question users will be asked, I think
> that it should verify whether the application that has the port number
> assigned is active as the same number will be used as the destination port
> number in the STAMP test.
>

--000000000000508a1205935265dd
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Barry,<div>great catch, thank you!</div><div>I&#39;ve p=
osted <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stam=
p-08">the new version</a>.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Kind regards,</di=
v><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" clas=
s=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 10:29 AM Barry Leiba &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:barryleiba@computer.org">barryleiba@computer.org</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Greg, this looks=
 good, and many thanks for that!=C2=A0 Minor typo:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Using STAMP over the Internet, especially<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0when STAMP test packets are transmitted with the destination U=
DP port<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0number from the User Ports range, the possible impact of the S=
TAMP<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0test packets MUST be thoroughly analyzed.<br>
<br>
It should say &quot;When using STAMP over the Internet...&quot;<br>
<br>
I&#39;ll clear the DISCUSS when this is posted as a draft revision.<br>
<br>
Barry<br>
<br>
On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 1:19 PM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirs=
ky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hi Barry,<br>
&gt; thank you for your suggestions. Based on your comments, the authors de=
cided to add a new Operational Consideration section:<br>
&gt; NEW TEXT:<br>
&gt; 5.=C2=A0 Operational Considerations<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 STAMP is intended to be used on production networks to en=
able the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 operator to assess service level agreements based on pack=
et delay,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 delay variation, and loss.=C2=A0 Using STAMP over the Int=
ernet, especially<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 when STAMP test packets are transmitted with the destinat=
ion UDP port<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 number from the User Ports range, the possible impact of =
the STAMP<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 test packets MUST be thoroughly analyzed.=C2=A0 The use o=
f STAMP for each<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 case MUST be agreed by users of nodes hosting the Session=
-Sender and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Session-Reflector before starting the STAMP test session.=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Also, the use of the well-known port number as the destin=
ation UDP<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 port number in STAMP test packets transmitted by a Sessio=
n-Sender<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 would not impede the ability to measure performance in an=
 Equal Cost<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Multipath environment and analysis in Section 5.3 [RFC854=
5] fully<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 applies to STAMP.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; As the new section includes the discussion of using port numbers from =
the User Ports range, the Security Considerations section has been updated =
to avoid the duplication (please see the attached working version and the d=
iff).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Much appreciate your comments on the updated text.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Greg<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:51 PM Barry Leiba &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:barr=
yleiba@computer.org" target=3D"_blank">barryleiba@computer.org</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Thanks, Greg; I look forward to it.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; b<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 8:35 PM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Hi Barry,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; thank you for the clarification. Yes, I agree that a new sect=
ion can state it more clearly and give sufficient examples, as you&#39;ve s=
uggested.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I&#39;ll work on it and will share when it is ready.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Greg<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:15 PM Barry Leiba &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:barryleiba@computer.org" target=3D"_blank">barryleiba@computer.org</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Hi, Greg, and thanks for the response.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; I think a minor rephrasing of the requirement isn&#39;t e=
nough, really.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; As I understand it now, after other discussion, it&#39;s =
not that you need<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; agreement from the users, but that you should put a parag=
raph (or<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; maybe a separate section, to highlight the point) that sa=
ys that this<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; is not intended for use on the open Internet nor on produ=
ction<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; networks, and gives examples of what it *is* intended for=
... perhaps<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; test networks, production networks during advertised main=
tenance<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; windows, that sort of thing.=C2=A0 And then you don&#39;t=
 need to say that the<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; network&#39;s users need to agree, but simply that they n=
eed to be aware<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; that performance testing will be happening during period =
X, and that<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; disruptions to normal network operation are possible.=C2=
=A0 You&#39;d need to<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; come up with text that the working group agrees with, of =
course, but I<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; think that if you do it will address my concern as well a=
s some of the<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; others that were raised.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Does that make sense?<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Barry<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:01 PM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Hi Barry,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; thank you for your pointed question. Please find my =
explanation and the proposed updated below under the GIM&gt;&gt; tag.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Greg<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 9:53 AM Barry Leiba via Datat=
racker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">noreply@ie=
tf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Barry Leiba has entered the following ballot pos=
ition for<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; When responding, please keep the subject line in=
tact and reply to all<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; email addresses included in the To and CC lines.=
 (Feel free to cut this<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/=
iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMM=
ENT positions.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; The document, along with other ballot positions,=
 can be found here:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-ietf-ippm-stamp/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracke=
r.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; ------------------------------------------------=
----------------------<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; DISCUSS:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; ------------------------------------------------=
----------------------<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; I&#39;m sure this will be easy to either explain=
 to me or re-phrase:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Sections 4 and 6 both say something like &quot;M=
UST be agreed by all users of the<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; network&quot;.=C2=A0 What does that really mean?=
=C2=A0 How is it remotely possible to get<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; agreement from all users of your network?=C2=A0 =
How is it remotely possible that<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; they could understand what you&#39;re asking the=
m to agree to?<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; Yes, looking at the bigger picture, at t=
he Internet rather than only at the domain where the test will be performed=
 makes such condition unattainable. Would s/network/network domain where th=
e test is planned/=C2=A0 so that it reads as:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; ... MUST be agreed by all users on the network domai=
n where the test is planned ...<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; make it clearer and the number of parties involved r=
easonable, practical?<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; As for what the could be the question users will be =
asked, I think that it should verify whether the application that has the p=
ort number assigned is active as the same number will be used as the destin=
ation port number in the STAMP test.<br>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000508a1205935265dd--


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 13:39:02 -0700
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To: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
Cc: "draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org>, "iesg@ietf.org" <iesg@ietf.org>,  "tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com" <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com>, "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>,  "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Magnus Westerlund's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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--0000000000006aaeca059352876d
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi Magnus,
a new section, Operational Considerations, has been added to address
Barry's DISCUSS:

5.  Operational Considerations

   STAMP is intended to be used on production networks to enable the
   operator to assess service level agreements based on packet delay,
   delay variation, and loss.  When using STAMP over the Internet,
   especially when STAMP test packets are transmitted with the
   destination UDP port number from the User Ports range, the possible
   impact of the STAMP test packets MUST be thoroughly analyzed.  The
   use of STAMP for each case MUST be agreed by users of nodes hosting
   the Session-Sender and Session-Reflector before starting the STAMP
   test session.

   Also, the use of the well-known port number as the destination UDP
   port number in STAMP test packets transmitted by a Session-Sender
   would not impede the ability to measure performance in an Equal Cost
   Multipath environment and analysis in Section 5.3 [RFC8545] fully
   applies to STAMP.

Would it address your concern?

The new version of the draft
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-08> has been
published. It includes all the updates we've discussed.

Much appreciate your consideration of the new version, comments, and
questions.

Kind regards,
Greg

On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 8:29 AM Magnus Westerlund <
magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 2019-09-11 at 11:33 -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> > Hi Magnus,
> > thank you for clarifications and further detailing your comments,
> > questions. Please find my answers and notes below in-lined under the
> > GIM2>> tag.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Greg
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 12:53 AM Magnus Westerlund <
> > magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > > Hi Greg,
> > >
> > > Thanks for the reply. See inline for my comments and response.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, 2019-09-10 at 12:43 -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> > > > Hi Magnus,
> > > > thank you for the review and thoughtful, pointed questions.
> > > Please
> > > > find my answers in-line under GIM>> tag.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Greg
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 3:54 PM Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker
> > > <
> > > > noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
> > > > > Magnus Westerlund has entered the following ballot position for
> > > > > draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss
> > > > >
> > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply
> > > to
> > > > > all
> > > > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to
> > > cut
> > > > > this
> > > > > introductory paragraph, however.)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Please refer to
> > > > > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> > > > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found
> > > here:
> > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ----
> > > > > -----
> > > > > DISCUSS:
> > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ----
> > > > > -----
> > > > >
> > > > > Two very much discussing discusses. However, I would really
> > > like to
> > > > > hear the
> > > > > answer to these concerns before clearing.
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Section 4.3: Is the HMAC field size of 16 bytes hard coded?
> > > If
> > > > > there ever
> > > > > would exist a need to deploy another integrity solution, even
> > > if
> > > > > the actual
> > > > > algorithm used to construct the tag can be agreed by the
> > > > > management, there
> > > > > appear to exist a hard look in to use 16-byte tags. Have this
> > > issue
> > > > > been
> > > > > considered?
> > > >
> > > > GIM>> Indeed, this specification defines the use of only one
> > > > algorithm and only 16 bytes-long HMAC field. Your question
> > > prompted
> > > > the discussion among authors and we believe that in a future
> > > > specification it would be feasible to extend supporting a number
> > > of
> > > > algorithms and different lengths of HMAC field both being defined
> > > > through extension to STAMP YANG data model.
> > >
> > > So if I understand this (taking a discussion with Mirja about
> > > keeping
> > > things as simple as possible) the solution is to basically is when
> > > need
> > > arises define a new STAMP version, and then use YANG to coordinate
> > > which version is used for the measurement. If that is a correct re-
> > > interpretation of your response then I am fine with it.
> >
> > GIM2>> The direction from the WG was to keep the base specification
> > as simple  as possible (and that was the reason to split TLV
> > extensions into a separate document).
>
> Yes, understood.
>
> > > > >         2. Section 6:
> > > > >         The possible impact of the
> > > > >    STAMP test packets on the network MUST be thoroughly
> > > analyzed,
> > > > > and
> > > > >    the use of STAMP for each case MUST be agreed by all users
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > >    network before starting the STAMP test session.
> > > > >
> > > > >         I assume some potential issues are know, shouldn't they
> > > > > really be
> > > > >         listed here in the security consideration to further
> > > > > motivate why the
> > > > >         analysis needs to happen.
> > > >
> > > > GIM>> This is in reference to using numbers from the User range
> > > as
> > > > the destination port number. Would adding the reference to the
> > > case
> > > > of using the port numbers from the User range address your
> > > concern?
> > > > Or rather refer to Section 4, as it includes more discussion
> > > (see
> > > > below)?
> > >
> > > Okay, I don't really care where the discussion happens. But I don't
> > > find any real discussion and listing of the concerns with using
> > > user or
> > > dynamic ports for STAMP Sessions? With the formulation you use, I
> > > would
> > > expect at least some list of potential concerns that needs to be
> > > evaluated in the context of the particular usage of STAMP.
> >
> > GIM2>> Per Berry's suggestion, I'm adding a new section, Operational
> > Considerations, to list possible scenarios and possible issues with
> > using destination ports from the User range and from the Dynamic
> > range. I hope to finish it in a couple days. Will share on this
> > discussion thread promptly.
>
> Great!
>
> Looking forward to review it when written.
>
> > > > >
> > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ----
> > > > > -----
> > > > > COMMENT:
> > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ----
> > > > > -----
> > > > >
> > > > >         1. Section 4:
> > > > >         Before using numbers from the User Ports range, the
> > > > > possible impact
> > > > >    on the network MUST be carefully studied and agreed by all
> > > users
> > > > > of
> > > > >    the network.
> > > > >
> > > > >         Is the above sentence missing to list an important
> > > > > assumption? Is the
> > > > >         assumption that by using the registred destination port
> > > an
> > > > > operator
> > > > >         that sees to much STAMP traffic can simply filter it
> > > out
> > > > > and that way
> > > > >         deal with the traffic, something which is not possible
> > > when
> > > > > using an
> > > > >         locally decided port? If that is the case, this
> > > assumption
> > > > > should
> > > > >         probably be noted.
> > > >
> > > > GIM>> That is a very good point but our primary motivation for
> > > this
> > > > cautionary note (or strong warning) was that by allowing STAMP to
> > > use
> > > > port numbers from the User range, ports that may be already
> > > assigned
> > > > to protocols, creates a DDOS attack vector. As for the filtering
> > > > STAMP traffic out, I think that even if the destination port is
> > > one
> > > > from the Dynamic range, for a relatively long test session it can
> > > be
> > > > filtered out.
> > >
> > > So if that is the only? concern then write it out. I would expect
> > > that
> > > the higher layer management protocol that creates a measurement
> > > session
> > > to actually ensure that the STAMP endpoint actually have the port
> > > numbers they attempt to use. Isn't that a reasonable requirement to
> > > put
> > > on the solution?
> >
> > GIM2>> Agree with your suggestion. Will put in the new section. If
> > STAMP is managed by a centralized system, whether it is proprietary
> > OSS/BSS or an orchestrator that uses YANG data models, the system
> > will be able to coordinate selection of port numbers on the Session-
> > Sender and Session-Reflector. But some systems may use EMS or CLI and
> > that is where human coordination may be required.
>
>
> Good, then likely this is resolved when your text is ready.
>
> > > My thinking with the filtering out concern was that in cases where
> > > one
> > > runs STAMP measurement sessions, if the measurement interfer with
> > > critical traffic an action for an on-path node that can actually
> > > identify the STAMP traffic was to filer it out. And that may be
> > > considered trivial when the well known port is used, but if a user
> > > or
> > > dynamic port is used, then that requries a managment system to
> > > provide
> > > the on-path node with the necessary information, i.e. 3/5 tuple for
> > > the
> > > STAMP flows.
> >
> > GIM2>> I think that a transit node can identify a flow as the STAMP
> > flow only if the destination port is the STAMP default UDP
> > destination port number, 862. In case a STAMP session has the
> > destination port number as one of port numbers from the User range,
> > IP/UDP encapsulation of STAMP packets would be indistinguishable from
> > packets originated by the application that is assigned that port
> > number. Thus, filtering out on only destination port number may
> > negatively affect service, legitimate service. Because of that, I
> > think that filtering will have to use more information. On the other
> > hand, if the test flow does not exceed agreed rate, then any
> > filtering test packets out, in my opinion, is counter-productive, as
> > it hides some issues in the networks rather than letting the OAM
> > tools to expose them, localize, and characterize.
>
> Ok. This was primarily to understand if this was in scope or not. But
> it sounds like this is not really in scope for how to manage it.
>
> > >
> > > > >         2. Section 3 and 4, and 4.1.1: What is a STAMP Session?
> > > Is
> > > > > that a
> > > > >         measurment session between one specific and sender and
> > > a
> > > > > specific
> > > > >         reflector for a time duration?  The defenition of the
> > > > > session do matter
> > > > >         if one intended to enable a single sender to use
> > > multiple
> > > > > reflectors,
> > > > >         and if that can be a single session or always multiple
> > > > > indepdendent
> > > > >         ones. Would appreciate a definition what a session is.
> > > If
> > > > > it is
> > > > >         possible to send STAMP traffic using a multicast or
> > > > > broadcast address
> > > > >         should be made explicit.
> > > >
> > > > GIM>> Your interpretation is correct, STAMP session is implicitly
> > > > defined as p2p. And that is what reflected in the STAMP YANG
> > > model.
> > > > Would the following text make it clearer:
> > > > NEW TEXT:
> > > >    In this document, a measurement session also referred to as
> > > >    STAMP session, is the session between one specific Session-
> > > Sender
> > > > and
> > > >    one particular Session-Reflector for a time duration.
> > >
> > > Yes, please include that definition. Question would it be clearer
> > > to
> > > replace ".. is the session betweeen .." with ".. is the bi-
> > > directional
> > > packet flows between .."?
> >
> > GIM2>> I agree, defining a session as a session makes is somewhat
> > repetitive. Thank you.
> > Below is the updated text:
> >    In this document, a measurement session also referred to as
> >    STAMP session, is the bi-directional packet flow between one
> > specific
> >    Session-Sender and one particular Session-Reflector for a time
> >    duration.
>
> Looks good to me.
>
> > >
> > > > >         3.  Section 4.1.1.:
> > > > >         Timestamp is eight octets long field.  STAMP node MUST
> > > > > support
> > > > >       Network Time Protocol (NTP) version 4 64-bit timestamp
> > > format
> > > > >       [RFC5905], the format used in [RFC5357].  STAMP node MAY
> > > > > support
> > > > >       IEEE 1588v2 Precision Time Protocol truncated 64-bit
> > > > > timestamp
> > > > >       format [IEEE.1588.2008], the format used in [RFC8186].
> > > > >
> > > > >         Is the clock source here something that may be relevant
> > > or
> > > > > simply
> > > > >         information the management functions should capture. I
> > > > > think there is a
> > > > >         similar issue to that of RTP faced when it comes to
> > > > > understand what the
> > > > >         timestamp actually represent and thus be used
> > > correctly.
> > > > > RTP clock
> > > > >         source specification is RFC 7273
> > > > >         (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7273/)
> > > >
> > > > GIM>> NTP and PTP encodings have a different interpretation of
> > > the
> > > > Fraction field of the Timestamp field. In my experience, PTP
> > > format
> > > > is native for the data plane, while NTP is more used at the
> > > control
> > > > plane. Original extension to TWAMP has been described in RFC
> > > 8186.
> > >
> > > I think you missunderstood. When I talk about clock source, I am
> > > actually referring to identifying the particular clock that the
> > > node
> > > use to derive the included timestamp from.
> > >
> > > And likely this is a moot point in this document where the clock
> > > source
> > > information belongs in the management layer, e.g. in the YANG data
> > > model.
> >
> > GIM2>> Timestamp Information TLV (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv)
> > provides information about the clock synchronization protocol and the
> > method by wich the timestamp has been acquired at a Session-
> > Reflector. We may extend it to list the name/locatior of the master
> > clock.
>
> Ok. sounds reasonable.
>
> > >
> > > > >         4. Section 4.1:
> > > > >            Because STAMP supports symmetrical test packets,
> > > STAMP
> > > > > Session-Sender
> > > > >    packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated
> > > mode,
> > > > > see
> > > > >    Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see
> > > Figure
> > > > > 4.
> > > > >
> > > > >         The above text implies some potential for UDP payload
> > > size
> > > > > variability
> > > > >         for the STAMP packets. However, the actual definition
> > > > > appear to have
> > > > >         fixed sizes. Can you please clarify if I have missed
> > > > > something that
> > > > >         enables the STAMP packet to have variable size?
> > > >
> > > > GIM>> I think that the text can be improved by characterizing the
> > > > listed sizes as "base". The variable length of a test packet in
> > > STAMP
> > > > is supported by using Extra Padding TLV defined in draft-ietf-
> > > ippm-
> > > > stamp-option-tlv. Below is the proposed update:
> > > > OLD TEXT:
> > > >    Because STAMP supports symmetrical test packets, STAMP
> > > Session-
> > > > Sender
> > > >    packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated
> > > mode,
> > > > see
> > > >    Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see Figure
> > > 4.
> > > > NEW TEXT:
> > > >    STAMP supports symmetrical test packets.  The base STAMP
> > > Session-
> > > >    Sender packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in
> > > unauthenticated
> > > >    mode, see Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode,
> > > see
> > > >    Figure 4.  The variable length of a test packet in STAMP is
> > > > supported
> > > >    by using Extra Padding TLV defined in
> > > >    [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv].
> > > >
> > > > With the new reference, should I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv be
> > > > moved to the Normative References list or may remain in the
> > > > Informative list?
> > >
> > > From my perspective, the fact that optional TLV may occur following
> > > the
> > > base headers appears quite important. Here comes a question of
> > > intention form the WG. Is it intended that one can have STAMP
> > > endpoints
> > > that do not even support receiving packets larger than the base?
> > > In other words there will be two main versions already now, one
> > > that
> > > supports some TLV and can at least handle the TLV skip forward and
> > > ignore the content and one that will throw a fit over the TLVs? If
> > > that
> > > is not the intention I think the fact that TLV's may occur should
> > > be
> > > moved into this specification and have it as a normative reference.
> >
> > GIM2>> Will move the reference to the Normative section. With TLV
> > being normative, I'd expect that the intelligent implementation of
> > this draft, of the base STAMP specification, will accept any valid
> > STAMP packet though not process extensions. But the base STAMP
> > Session-Reflector will return the base reflected packet.
>
> I think that is very reasonable approach. Are you close to complete the
> stamp-option-tlv document, or will the missref cause any issue?
>
> > > I guess the answer is that you have backwards comaptibility reasons
> > > for
> > > not allowing TLVs at all in some sessions, or?
> >
> > GIM2>> Yes, that and the principle "keep it simple".
>
> Thanks,
>
> To me it looks like with some text changes all my issues are addressed.
>
> Cheers
>
> Magnus Westerlund
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287
> Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079
> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Magnus,<div>a new section, Operational=
 Considerations, has been added to address Barry&#39;s DISCUSS:</div><div><=
br></div><div>5.=C2=A0 Operational Considerations<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0STAMP=
 is intended to be used on production networks to enable the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0operator to assess service level agreements based on packet delay,<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0delay variation, and loss.=C2=A0 When using STAMP over the Int=
ernet,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0especially when STAMP test packets are transmitted w=
ith the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0destination UDP port number from the User Ports ran=
ge, the possible<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0impact of the STAMP test packets MUST be t=
horoughly analyzed.=C2=A0 The<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0use of STAMP for each case MU=
ST be agreed by users of nodes hosting<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0the Session-Sender a=
nd Session-Reflector before starting the STAMP<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0test session=
.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Also, the use of the well-known port number as the de=
stination UDP<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0port number in STAMP test packets transmitted=
 by a Session-Sender<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0would not impede the ability to measur=
e performance in an Equal Cost<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Multipath environment and an=
alysis in Section 5.3 [RFC8545] fully<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0applies to STAMP.<br>=
</div><div><br></div><div>Would it address your concern?</div><div><br></di=
v><div><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-sta=
mp-08">The new version of the draft</a> has been published. It includes all=
 the updates we&#39;ve discussed.</div><div><br></div><div>Much appreciate =
your consideration of the new version, comments, and questions.</div><div><=
br></div><div>Kind regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 8:2=
9 AM Magnus Westerlund &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com=
">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Wed, 2019-09-11 at 11:33 -0700, Greg Mi=
rsky wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi Magnus,<br>
&gt; thank you for clarifications and further detailing your comments,<br>
&gt; questions. Please find my answers and notes below in-lined under the<b=
r>
&gt; GIM2&gt;&gt; tag.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Greg<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 12:53 AM Magnus Westerlund &lt;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">ma=
gnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi Greg,<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks for the reply. See inline for my comments and response. <b=
r>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; On Tue, 2019-09-10 at 12:43 -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Hi Magnus,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; thank you for the review and thoughtful, pointed questions.<=
br>
&gt; &gt; Please<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; find my answers in-line under GIM&gt;&gt; tag.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Greg<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 3:54 PM Magnus Westerlund via Datatra=
cker<br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">norepl=
y@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Magnus Westerlund has entered the following ballot posi=
tion for<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; When responding, please keep the subject line intact an=
d reply<br>
&gt; &gt; to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; all<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel =
free to<br>
&gt; &gt; cut<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; this<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Please refer to <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-=
criteria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/ie=
sg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT pos=
itions.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The document, along with other ballot positions, can be=
 found<br>
&gt; &gt; here:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-=
ippm-stamp/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.=
org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; -------------------------------------------------------=
------<br>
&gt; &gt; ----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; -----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; DISCUSS:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; -------------------------------------------------------=
------<br>
&gt; &gt; ----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; -----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Two very much discussing discusses. However, I would re=
ally<br>
&gt; &gt; like to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; hear the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; answer to these concerns before clearing.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 1. Section 4.3: Is the HMAC field size of 16 bytes hard=
 coded?<br>
&gt; &gt; If<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; there ever<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; would exist a need to deploy another integrity solution=
, even<br>
&gt; &gt; if<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the actual<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; algorithm used to construct the tag can be agreed by th=
e<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; management, there<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; appear to exist a hard look in to use 16-byte tags. Hav=
e this<br>
&gt; &gt; issue<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; been<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; considered?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; Indeed, this specification defines the use of on=
ly one<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; algorithm and only 16 bytes-long HMAC field. Your question<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; prompted<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; the discussion among authors and we believe that in a future=
<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; specification it would be feasible to extend supporting a nu=
mber<br>
&gt; &gt; of<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; algorithms and different lengths of HMAC field both being de=
fined<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; through extension to STAMP YANG data model.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; So if I understand this (taking a discussion with Mirja about<br>
&gt; &gt; keeping<br>
&gt; &gt; things as simple as possible) the solution is to basically is whe=
n<br>
&gt; &gt; need<br>
&gt; &gt; arises define a new STAMP version, and then use YANG to coordinat=
e<br>
&gt; &gt; which version is used for the measurement. If that is a correct r=
e-<br>
&gt; &gt; interpretation of your response then I am fine with it. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GIM2&gt;&gt; The direction from the WG was to keep the base specificat=
ion<br>
&gt; as simple=C2=A0 as possible (and that was the reason to split TLV<br>
&gt; extensions into a separate document). <br>
<br>
Yes, understood. <br>
<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02. Section 6:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The possible impact of=
 the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 STAMP test packets on the network MUST be =
thoroughly<br>
&gt; &gt; analyzed,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; and<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the use of STAMP for each case MUST be agr=
eed by all users<br>
&gt; &gt; on<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 network before starting the STAMP test ses=
sion.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I assume some potentia=
l issues are know, shouldn&#39;t they<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; really be<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0listed here in the sec=
urity consideration to further<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; motivate why the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0analysis needs to happ=
en.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; This is in reference to using numbers from the U=
ser range<br>
&gt; &gt; as<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; the destination port number. Would adding the reference to t=
he<br>
&gt; &gt; case<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; of using the port numbers from the User range address your<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; concern?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Or rather refer to Section 4, as it includes more discussion=
<br>
&gt; &gt; (see <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; below)? <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Okay, I don&#39;t really care where the discussion happens. But I=
 don&#39;t<br>
&gt; &gt; find any real discussion and listing of the concerns with using<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; user or<br>
&gt; &gt; dynamic ports for STAMP Sessions? With the formulation you use, I=
<br>
&gt; &gt; would<br>
&gt; &gt; expect at least some list of potential concerns that needs to be<=
br>
&gt; &gt; evaluated in the context of the particular usage of STAMP. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GIM2&gt;&gt; Per Berry&#39;s suggestion, I&#39;m adding a new section,=
 Operational<br>
&gt; Considerations, to list possible scenarios and possible issues with<br=
>
&gt; using destination ports from the User range and from the Dynamic<br>
&gt; range. I hope to finish it in a couple days. Will share on this<br>
&gt; discussion thread promptly. <br>
<br>
Great!<br>
<br>
Looking forward to review it when written. <br>
<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; -------------------------------------------------------=
------<br>
&gt; &gt; ----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; -----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; COMMENT:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; -------------------------------------------------------=
------<br>
&gt; &gt; ----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; -----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01. Section 4:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Before using numbers f=
rom the User Ports range, the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; possible impact<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 on the network MUST be carefully studied a=
nd agreed by all<br>
&gt; &gt; users<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; of<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the network.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Is the above sentence =
missing to list an important<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; assumption? Is the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0assumption that by usi=
ng the registred destination port<br>
&gt; &gt; an<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; operator<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that sees to much STAM=
P traffic can simply filter it<br>
&gt; &gt; out<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; and that way<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0deal with the traffic,=
 something which is not possible<br>
&gt; &gt; when<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; using an<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0locally decided port? =
If that is the case, this<br>
&gt; &gt; assumption<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; should<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0probably be noted.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; That is a very good point but our primary motiva=
tion for<br>
&gt; &gt; this<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; cautionary note (or strong warning) was that by allowing STA=
MP to<br>
&gt; &gt; use<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; port numbers from the User range, ports that may be already<=
br>
&gt; &gt; assigned<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; to protocols, creates a DDOS attack vector. As for the filte=
ring<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; STAMP traffic out, I think that even if the destination port=
 is<br>
&gt; &gt; one<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; from the Dynamic range, for a relatively long test session i=
t can<br>
&gt; &gt; be<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; filtered out.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; So if that is the only? concern then write it out. I would expect=
<br>
&gt; &gt; that<br>
&gt; &gt; the higher layer management protocol that creates a measurement<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; session<br>
&gt; &gt; to actually ensure that the STAMP endpoint actually have the port=
<br>
&gt; &gt; numbers they attempt to use. Isn&#39;t that a reasonable requirem=
ent to<br>
&gt; &gt; put<br>
&gt; &gt; on the solution? <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GIM2&gt;&gt; Agree with your suggestion. Will put in the new section. =
If<br>
&gt; STAMP is managed by a centralized system, whether it is proprietary<br=
>
&gt; OSS/BSS or an orchestrator that uses YANG data models, the system<br>
&gt; will be able to coordinate selection of port numbers on the Session-<b=
r>
&gt; Sender and Session-Reflector. But some systems may use EMS or CLI and<=
br>
&gt; that is where human coordination may be required. <br>
<br>
<br>
Good, then likely this is resolved when your text is ready. <br>
<br>
&gt; &gt; My thinking with the filtering out concern was that in cases wher=
e<br>
&gt; &gt; one<br>
&gt; &gt; runs STAMP measurement sessions, if the measurement interfer with=
<br>
&gt; &gt; critical traffic an action for an on-path node that can actually<=
br>
&gt; &gt; identify the STAMP traffic was to filer it out. And that may be<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; considered trivial when the well known port is used, but if a use=
r<br>
&gt; &gt; or<br>
&gt; &gt; dynamic port is used, then that requries a managment system to<br=
>
&gt; &gt; provide<br>
&gt; &gt; the on-path node with the necessary information, i.e. 3/5 tuple f=
or<br>
&gt; &gt; the<br>
&gt; &gt; STAMP flows. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GIM2&gt;&gt; I think that a transit node can identify a flow as the ST=
AMP<br>
&gt; flow only if the destination port is the STAMP default UDP<br>
&gt; destination port number, 862. In case a STAMP session has the<br>
&gt; destination port number as one of port numbers from the User range,<br=
>
&gt; IP/UDP encapsulation of STAMP packets would be indistinguishable from<=
br>
&gt; packets originated by the application that is assigned that port<br>
&gt; number. Thus, filtering out on only destination port number may<br>
&gt; negatively affect service, legitimate service. Because of that, I<br>
&gt; think that filtering will have to use more information. On the other<b=
r>
&gt; hand, if the test flow does not exceed agreed rate, then any<br>
&gt; filtering test packets out, in my opinion, is counter-productive, as<b=
r>
&gt; it hides some issues in the networks rather than letting the OAM<br>
&gt; tools to expose them, localize, and characterize.<br>
<br>
Ok. This was primarily to understand if this was in scope or not. But<br>
it sounds like this is not really in scope for how to manage it. <br>
<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02. Section 3 and 4, an=
d 4.1.1: What is a STAMP Session?<br>
&gt; &gt; Is<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; that a<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0measurment session bet=
ween one specific and sender and<br>
&gt; &gt; a<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; specific<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reflector for a time d=
uration?=C2=A0 The defenition of the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; session do matter<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0if one intended to ena=
ble a single sender to use<br>
&gt; &gt; multiple<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; reflectors,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and if that can be a s=
ingle session or always multiple<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; indepdendent<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ones. Would appreciate=
 a definition what a session is.<br>
&gt; &gt; If<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; it is<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0possible to send STAMP=
 traffic using a multicast or<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; broadcast address<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should be made explici=
t.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; Your interpretation is correct, STAMP session is=
 implicitly<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; defined as p2p. And that is what reflected in the STAMP YANG=
<br>
&gt; &gt; model.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Would the following text make it clearer:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; NEW TEXT:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In this document, a measurement session also re=
ferred to as<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 STAMP session, is the session between one speci=
fic Session-<br>
&gt; &gt; Sender<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; and<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 one particular Session-Reflector for a time dur=
ation.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Yes, please include that definition. Question would it be clearer=
<br>
&gt; &gt; to<br>
&gt; &gt; replace &quot;.. is the session betweeen ..&quot; with &quot;.. i=
s the bi-<br>
&gt; &gt; directional<br>
&gt; &gt; packet flows between ..&quot;? <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GIM2&gt;&gt; I agree, defining a session as a session makes is somewha=
t<br>
&gt; repetitive. Thank you. <br>
&gt; Below is the updated text:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In this document, a measurement session also referred to =
as<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 STAMP session, is the bi-directional packet flow between =
one<br>
&gt; specific<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Session-Sender and one particular Session-Reflector for a=
 time<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 duration.<br>
<br>
Looks good to me. <br>
<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03.=C2=A0 Section <a hr=
ef=3D"http://4.1.1." rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">4.1.1.</a>:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Timestamp is eight oct=
ets long field.=C2=A0 STAMP node MUST<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; support<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Network Time Protocol (NTP) v=
ersion 4 64-bit timestamp<br>
&gt; &gt; format<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC5905], the format used in=
 [RFC5357].=C2=A0 STAMP node MAY<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; support<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IEEE 1588v2 Precision Time Pr=
otocol truncated 64-bit<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; timestamp<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0format [IEEE.1588.2008], the =
format used in [RFC8186].<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Is the clock source he=
re something that may be relevant<br>
&gt; &gt; or<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; simply<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0information the manage=
ment functions should capture. I<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; think there is a<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0similar issue to that =
of RTP faced when it comes to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; understand what the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0timestamp actually rep=
resent and thus be used<br>
&gt; &gt; correctly.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; RTP clock<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0source specification i=
s RFC 7273<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(<a href=3D"https://da=
tatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7273/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https=
://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7273/</a>)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; NTP and PTP encodings have a different interpret=
ation of<br>
&gt; &gt; the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Fraction field of the Timestamp field. In my experience, PTP=
<br>
&gt; &gt; format<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; is native for the data plane, while NTP is more used at the<=
br>
&gt; &gt; control<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; plane. Original extension to TWAMP has been described in RFC=
<br>
&gt; &gt; 8186.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; I think you missunderstood. When I talk about clock source, I am<=
br>
&gt; &gt; actually referring to identifying the particular clock that the<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; node<br>
&gt; &gt; use to derive the included timestamp from. <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; And likely this is a moot point in this document where the clock<=
br>
&gt; &gt; source<br>
&gt; &gt; information belongs in the management layer, e.g. in the YANG dat=
a<br>
&gt; &gt; model. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GIM2&gt;&gt; Timestamp Information TLV (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-t=
lv)<br>
&gt; provides information about the clock synchronization protocol and the<=
br>
&gt; method by wich the timestamp has been acquired at a Session-<br>
&gt; Reflector. We may extend it to list the name/locatior of the master<br=
>
&gt; clock.<br>
<br>
Ok. sounds reasonable. <br>
<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04. Section 4.1:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Because STAMP =
supports symmetrical test packets,<br>
&gt; &gt; STAMP<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Session-Sender<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in =
unauthenticated<br>
&gt; &gt; mode,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; see<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authentica=
ted mode, see<br>
&gt; &gt; Figure<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 4.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The above text implies=
 some potential for UDP payload<br>
&gt; &gt; size<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; variability<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for the STAMP packets.=
 However, the actual definition<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; appear to have<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0fixed sizes. Can you p=
lease clarify if I have missed<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; something that<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0enables the STAMP pack=
et to have variable size?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; I think that the text can be improved by charact=
erizing the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; listed sizes as &quot;base&quot;. The variable length of a t=
est packet in<br>
&gt; &gt; STAMP<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; is supported by using Extra Padding TLV defined in draft-iet=
f-<br>
&gt; &gt; ippm-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; stamp-option-tlv. Below is the proposed update:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; OLD TEXT:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Because STAMP supports symmetrical test packets=
, STAMP<br>
&gt; &gt; Session-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Sender<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unaut=
henticated<br>
&gt; &gt; mode,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; see<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated m=
ode, see Figure<br>
&gt; &gt; 4.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; NEW TEXT:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 STAMP supports symmetrical test packets.=C2=A0 =
The base STAMP<br>
&gt; &gt; Session-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sender packet has a minimum size of 44 octets i=
n<br>
&gt; &gt; unauthenticated<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mode, see Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authe=
nticated mode,<br>
&gt; &gt; see<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Figure 4.=C2=A0 The variable length of a test p=
acket in STAMP is<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; supported<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 by using Extra Padding TLV defined in<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv].<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; With the new reference, should I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tl=
v be<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; moved to the Normative References list or may remain in the<=
br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Informative list?<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; From my perspective, the fact that optional TLV may occur followi=
ng<br>
&gt; &gt; the<br>
&gt; &gt; base headers appears quite important. Here comes a question of<br=
>
&gt; &gt; intention form the WG. Is it intended that one can have STAMP<br>
&gt; &gt; endpoints<br>
&gt; &gt; that do not even support receiving packets larger than the base? =
<br>
&gt; &gt; In other words there will be two main versions already now, one<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; that<br>
&gt; &gt; supports some TLV and can at least handle the TLV skip forward an=
d<br>
&gt; &gt; ignore the content and one that will throw a fit over the TLVs? I=
f<br>
&gt; &gt; that<br>
&gt; &gt; is not the intention I think the fact that TLV&#39;s may occur sh=
ould<br>
&gt; &gt; be<br>
&gt; &gt; moved into this specification and have it as a normative referenc=
e.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GIM2&gt;&gt; Will move the reference to the Normative section. With TL=
V<br>
&gt; being normative, I&#39;d expect that the intelligent implementation of=
<br>
&gt; this draft, of the base STAMP specification, will accept any valid<br>
&gt; STAMP packet though not process extensions. But the base STAMP<br>
&gt; Session-Reflector will return the base reflected packet.=C2=A0 <br>
<br>
I think that is very reasonable approach. Are you close to complete the<br>
stamp-option-tlv document, or will the missref cause any issue? <br>
<br>
&gt; &gt; I guess the answer is that you have backwards comaptibility reaso=
ns<br>
&gt; &gt; for<br>
&gt; &gt; not allowing TLVs at all in some sessions, or? <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; GIM2&gt;&gt; Yes, that and the principle &quot;keep it simple&quot;. <=
br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
To me it looks like with some text changes all my issues are addressed.<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
Magnus Westerlund <br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Network Architecture &amp; Protocols, Ericsson Research<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Ericsson AB=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =
Phone=C2=A0 +46 10 7148287<br>
Torshamnsgatan 23=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Mobile +46 73 0=
949079<br>
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: <a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@e=
ricsson.com" target=3D"_blank">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a><br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 15:28:59 -0700
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To: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org,  Tal Mizrahi <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com>, IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>,  IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Roman Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Roman,
thank you for your review of the STAMP draft and my apologies for the
delayed response.
Through discussions with Barry and Magnus, we've updated -07 version and
just published the new one
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-08>. Please
find my answers to your questions, proposed updates in-line below and
tagged GIM>>.
Attached, please find the new working version and the diff between versions
-07 and -09 (the new working version).

Kind regards,
Greg

On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 6:45 PM Roman Danyliw via Datatracker <
noreply@ietf.org> wrote:

> Roman Danyliw has entered the following ballot position for
> draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCUSS:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> (1) Section 4.3.  The text does not explicitly state the data on which th=
e
> HMAC
> is computed (i.e., bytes 1 to the end of the last MBZ field of the
> message?)
>
GIM>> Yes, the intention is to cover the whole STAMP packet as presented in
the draft for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. Would adding the
following sentence make it clear:
In the Authenticated mode, HMAC covers the first six blocks (96 octets).

>
> (2) Section 6.  Per =E2=80=9CIn general, all the security considerations =
related to
> TWAMP-Test, discussed in [RFC5357] apply to STAMP.=E2=80=9D, what exact g=
uidance is
> relevant here:
>
> -- Section 6 (Security Considerations) of RFC5357 says follow the guidanc=
e
> of
> RFC4656 and guidance on the OWAMP Server-Greeting messages, only the form=
er
> seems relevant
>
> -- Section 6 (Security Considerations) of RFC4656 has:
>
> Section 6.1 which discusses authenticated and encrypted mode of OWAMP; bu=
t
> STAMP has no encrypted mode.  The claims about authenticate mode seem to =
be
> similar to OWAMP, but that=E2=80=99s not explicitly said
>
> Section 6.2 discusses DoS, seems to have some related guidance but also
> discusses TCP handshakes
>
> Section 6.3 discusses covert channels, this seems relevant
>
> Section 6.4 seems to discuss key management that section 4.3 of this draf=
t
> seems to suggest is out of scope
>
> Section 6.5 seems to provide guidance on resource provisioning but uses t=
he
> KeyID primitive that doesn=E2=80=99t appear present in this draft
>
> [please review the other sections too ...]
>
GIM>> Much appreciate your thorough analysis. Indeed, much of discussion in
RFC 4656 was centered on the security of the control plane, OWAMP-Control,
and is not relevant in case of STAMP. Thus the first sentence in the
Security Considerations section has been replaced with the new paragraph as
below:
OLD TEXT:
   In general, all the security considerations related to TWAMP-Test,
   discussed in [RFC5357] apply to STAMP.
NEW TEXT:
   [RFC5357] does not identify security considerations specific to
   TWAMP-Test but refers to security considerations identified for OWAMP
   in [RFC4656].  Since both OWAMP and TWAMP include control plane and
   data plane components, only security considerations related to OWAMP-
   Test, discussed in Sections 6.2, 6.3 [RFC4656] apply to STAMP.

>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I support Barry Leiba=E2=80=99s DISCUSS.
>
GIM>> The new section, Operational Considerations, has been added in -08
version to address Barry's DISCUSS.

>
> I also support Magnus Westerlund=E2=80=99s DISCUSS.  See #4.
>
> (2) Section 4.1.1.  The sequence number is defined in terms of a =E2=80=
=9Cnew
> session=E2=80=9D.
>  However, I couldn=E2=80=99t find the precise definition of a =E2=80=9Cse=
ssion=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 how is
> new
> one initiated?  terminated?
>
GIM>> Per discussion with Magnus, defined session as follows:
   In this document, a measurement session also referred to as
   STAMP session, is the bi-directional packet flow between one specific
   Session-Sender and one particular Session-Reflector for a time
   duration.

>
> (3) Section 4.2.1.  Per Session-Sender TTL, this field is defined, the
> guidance
> on generating its value is clear, but its use is not explained.
>
GIM>> The operations on the Sender TTL in STAMP are the same as defined in
RFC 5357. There's no specific performance metric associated with the value
in the Sender TTL field. Some implementations may use it to monitor the
stability of the path from the Session-Sender to the Session-Reflector. I'd
imagine that there could be other ways to use it.

>
> (4) Section 4.3.  Related question to Magnus Westerlund=E2=80=99s DISCUSS=
, what is
> the
> planned approach for crypto agility?
>
> (5) Section 4.3.  Per, =E2=80=9CHMAC uses its own key, and the definition=
 of the
> mechanism to distribute the HMAC key is outside the scope of this
> specification.=E2=80=9D
>
> -- What is being suggested by =E2=80=9Cuses its own key=E2=80=9D?
>
GIM>> The intention was to differentiate from the procedure described in
Section 4.2 Integrity Protection (HMAC) in RFC 4656 how HMAC Session-key is
communicated using the control plane and then HMAC key can be derived based
on HMAC Session-key. Would you suggest changed wording?

>
> -- Is it expected that each Session-Sender/Reflector pair would have a
> unique
> key?
>
GIM>> Ultimately, yes. Each pair of Session-Sender and Session-Reflector
may be using a unique key.

>
> -- Recommend being clearer on what=E2=80=99s out of scope, perhaps someth=
ing on the
> order of: s/=E2=80=A6 the definition of the mechanism to distribute the H=
MAC key is
> outside the scope of this specification./


> =E2=80=A6 key management and the mechanisms to distribute the HMAC key is=
 outside
> the
> scope of this specification.=E2=80=9D
>
GIM>> Thank you for the suggested text. Applied in the new working version:
   HMAC uses its own key; key management and
   the mechanisms to distribute the HMAC key is outside the scope of
   this specification.

>
> (5) Section 4.3.  Thanks for responded to Russ Housley=E2=80=99s SECDIR r=
eview and
> proposing the new Section 4.3 and 4.4.  It provides helpful clarity.
>
> (6) Editorial Nits
> -- Section 3.  I didn=E2=80=99t understand the title of =E2=80=98Softwari=
zation of
> Performance
> Management=E2=80=99.  The text of the section seems to simply describe th=
e
> elements of
> Figure 1 and suggests a few ways to configure the these elements.
>
GIM>> Re-named the section to "Operation and Management of Performance
Measurement Based on STAMP". Is the new title closer to the content of the
section?

>
> -- Section 4.  Typo.  s/MUST use received/MUST received/
>
GIM>> Thank you for catching it. Applied in the working version:
   An implementation
   of STAMP Session-Reflector by default MUST receive STAMP test packets
   on UDP port 862.
>
>
> -- Section 6.  Editorial.  s/Load of STAMP test packets/The load of the
> STAMP
> test packets/
>
GIM>> Thank you. Applied.

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Roman,<div>thank you for your review o=
f the STAMP draft and my apologies for the delayed response.</div><div>Thro=
ugh discussions with Barry and Magnus, we&#39;ve updated -07 version and ju=
st published <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ip=
pm-stamp-08">the new one</a>. Please find my answers to your questions, pro=
posed updates in-line below and tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.</div><div>Attached, ple=
ase find the new working version and the diff between versions -07 and -09 =
(the new working version).</div><div><br></div><div>Kind regards,</div><div=
>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g=
mail_attr">On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 6:45 PM Roman Danyliw via Datatracker &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Roman Danyliw has ente=
red the following ballot position for<br>
draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss<br>
<br>
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all<br>
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this<br>
introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Please refer to <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-crit=
eria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/iesg/s=
tatement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.<br>
<br>
<br>
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/" rel=3D"=
noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i=
ppm-stamp/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
DISCUSS:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
(1) Section 4.3.=C2=A0 The text does not explicitly state the data on which=
 the HMAC<br>
is computed (i.e., bytes 1 to the end of the last MBZ field of the message?=
)<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Yes, the intention is to cover the whole=
 STAMP packet as presented in the draft for Session-Sender and Session-Refl=
ector. Would adding the following sentence make it clear:</div><div>In the =
Authenticated mode, HMAC covers the first six blocks (96 octets).=C2=A0</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
(2) Section 6.=C2=A0 Per =E2=80=9CIn general, all the security consideratio=
ns related to<br>
TWAMP-Test, discussed in [RFC5357] apply to STAMP.=E2=80=9D, what exact gui=
dance is<br>
relevant here:<br>
<br>
-- Section 6 (Security Considerations) of RFC5357 says follow the guidance =
of<br>
RFC4656 and guidance on the OWAMP Server-Greeting messages, only the former=
<br>
seems relevant<br>
<br>
-- Section 6 (Security Considerations) of RFC4656 has:<br>
<br>
Section 6.1 which discusses authenticated and encrypted mode of OWAMP; but<=
br>
STAMP has no encrypted mode.=C2=A0 The claims about authenticate mode seem =
to be<br>
similar to OWAMP, but that=E2=80=99s not explicitly said<br>
<br>
Section 6.2 discusses DoS, seems to have some related guidance but also<br>
discusses TCP handshakes<br>
<br>
Section 6.3 discusses covert channels, this seems relevant<br>
<br>
Section 6.4 seems to discuss key management that section 4.3 of this draft<=
br>
seems to suggest is out of scope<br>
<br>
Section 6.5 seems to provide guidance on resource provisioning but uses the=
<br>
KeyID primitive that doesn=E2=80=99t appear present in this draft<br>
<br>
[please review the other sections too ...]<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt;=
 Much appreciate your thorough analysis. Indeed, much of discussion in RFC =
4656 was centered on the security of the control plane, OWAMP-Control, and =
is not relevant in case of STAMP. Thus the first sentence in the Security C=
onsiderations section has been replaced with the new paragraph as below:</d=
iv><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0In general, all the security consi=
derations related to TWAMP-Test,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0discussed in [RFC5357] app=
ly to STAMP.=C2=A0<br></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC5357]=
 does not identify security considerations specific to<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0TWAM=
P-Test but refers to security considerations identified for OWAMP<br>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0in [RFC4656].=C2=A0 Since both OWAMP and TWAMP include control plane=
 and<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0data plane components, only security considerations re=
lated to OWAMP-<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Test, discussed in Sections 6.2, 6.3 [RFC46=
56] apply to STAMP.<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex">
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
COMMENT:<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
I support Barry Leiba=E2=80=99s DISCUSS.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; T=
he new section, Operational Considerations, has been added in -08 version t=
o address Barry&#39;s DISCUSS.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex">
<br>
I also support Magnus Westerlund=E2=80=99s DISCUSS.=C2=A0 See #4.<br>
<br>
(2) Section 4.1.1.=C2=A0 The sequence number is defined in terms of a =E2=
=80=9Cnew session=E2=80=9D.<br>
=C2=A0However, I couldn=E2=80=99t find the precise definition of a =E2=80=
=9Csession=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 how is new<br>
one initiated?=C2=A0 terminated?<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Per discu=
ssion with Magnus, defined session as follows:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0In th=
is document, a measurement session also referred to as<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0STAM=
P session, is the bi-directional packet flow between one specific<br>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0Session-Sender and one particular Session-Reflector for a time<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0duration.<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex">
<br>
(3) Section 4.2.1.=C2=A0 Per Session-Sender TTL, this field is defined, the=
 guidance<br>
on generating its value is clear, but its use is not explained.<br></blockq=
uote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; The operations on the Sender TTL in STAMP are the sam=
e as defined in RFC 5357. There&#39;s no specific performance metric associ=
ated with the value in the Sender TTL field. Some implementations may use i=
t to monitor the stability of the path from the Session-Sender to the Sessi=
on-Reflector. I&#39;d imagine that there could be other ways to use it.</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
(4) Section 4.3.=C2=A0 Related question to Magnus Westerlund=E2=80=99s DISC=
USS, what is the<br>
planned approach for crypto agility?<br>
<br>
(5) Section 4.3.=C2=A0 Per, =E2=80=9CHMAC uses its own key, and the definit=
ion of the<br>
mechanism to distribute the HMAC key is outside the scope of this<br>
specification.=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
-- What is being suggested by =E2=80=9Cuses its own key=E2=80=9D?<br></bloc=
kquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; The intention was to differentiate from the procedu=
re described in Section 4.2 Integrity Protection (HMAC) in RFC 4656 how HMA=
C Session-key is communicated using the control plane and then HMAC key can=
 be derived based on HMAC Session-key. Would you suggest changed wording?</=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
-- Is it expected that each Session-Sender/Reflector pair would have a uniq=
ue<br>
key?<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Ultimately, yes. Each pair of Session=
-Sender and Session-Reflector may be using a unique key.=C2=A0</div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
-- Recommend being clearer on what=E2=80=99s out of scope, perhaps somethin=
g on the<br>
order of: s/=E2=80=A6 the definition of the mechanism to distribute the HMA=
C key is<br>
outside the scope of this specification./</blockquote><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
=E2=80=A6 key management and the mechanisms to distribute the HMAC key is o=
utside the<br>
scope of this specification.=E2=80=9D<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Than=
k you for the suggested text. Applied in the new working version:</div><div=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0HMAC uses its own key; key management and<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0the=
 mechanisms to distribute the HMAC key is outside the scope of<br></div><di=
v>=C2=A0 =C2=A0this specification.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
(5) Section 4.3.=C2=A0 Thanks for responded to Russ Housley=E2=80=99s SECDI=
R review and<br>
proposing the new Section 4.3 and 4.4.=C2=A0 It provides helpful clarity.<b=
r>
<br>
(6) Editorial Nits<br>
-- Section 3.=C2=A0 I didn=E2=80=99t understand the title of =E2=80=98Softw=
arization of Performance<br>
Management=E2=80=99.=C2=A0 The text of the section seems to simply describe=
 the elements of<br>
Figure 1 and suggests a few ways to configure the these elements.<br></bloc=
kquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Re-named the section to &quot;Operation and Managem=
ent of Performance Measurement Based on STAMP&quot;. Is the new title close=
r to the content of the section?=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
-- Section 4.=C2=A0 Typo.=C2=A0 s/MUST use received/MUST received/<br></blo=
ckquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for catching it. Applied in the working =
version:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0An implementation</div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0of STAM=
P Session-Reflector by default MUST receive STAMP test packets<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0on UDP port 862.<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
-- Section 6.=C2=A0 Editorial.=C2=A0 s/Load of STAMP test packets/The load =
of the STAMP<br>
test packets/<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you. Applied.=C2=A0</d=
iv></div></div>

--000000000000b5365405935410f8--

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From nobody Tue Sep 24 23:36:38 2019
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From: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>
To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>, Tom Herbert <tom@quantonium.net>
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Thread-Topic: In-situ OAM Data Type Extension
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Subject: [ippm] In-situ OAM Data Type Extension
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Hi Frank,

I am revisiting the mailing list. And I am interesting about Tom's discussi=
on on IOAM Data Type Extension.
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/cp0E8-D0XbgTBy_3Bf6E21z00EA

You had the following reply:
"* 24 bits Trace type=20
Per your suggestion, reserving a bit to allow for future scalability makes =
sense - and bit 23 would be an obvious choice; which would in turn mean tha=
t we'd need to assign a different bit for checksum complement. If everyone =
else is fine with this change, we can include this change in -07."

We also had a draft to address the same issue.
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-song-ippm-ioam-data-extension-01

I see the latest draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-07 reserved the bit 23. Are you =
going to define the usage of that bit or not?
Defer it to other draft or next version?

Regards,
Tianran


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From: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>
To: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>, Tom Herbert <tom@quantonium.net>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/7QuAO8w_hWz-ig-CkUJwzkL45XI>
Subject: Re: [ippm] In-situ OAM Data Type Extension
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Hi Tianran,

Like what you state below: Per Tom's suggestion a reserved bit to ensure fu=
ture extensibility was added in the most recent rev, i.e. draft-ietf-ippm-i=
oam-data-07.
We can define the use of the bit and potential extension once we're in need=
 of extending. For now we still have plenty of spare bits.

Regards, Frank

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>
> Sent: Mittwoch, 25. September 2019 08:36
> To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com>; Tom Herbert
> <tom@quantonium.net>
> Cc: ippm@ietf.org
> Subject: In-situ OAM Data Type Extension
>=20
> Hi Frank,
>=20
> I am revisiting the mailing list. And I am interesting about Tom's discus=
sion on
> IOAM Data Type Extension.
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/cp0E8-D0XbgTBy_3Bf6E21z00EA
>=20
> You had the following reply:
> "* 24 bits Trace type
> Per your suggestion, reserving a bit to allow for future scalability make=
s sense -
> and bit 23 would be an obvious choice; which would in turn mean that we'd=
 need
> to assign a different bit for checksum complement. If everyone else is fi=
ne with
> this change, we can include this change in -07."
>=20
> We also had a draft to address the same issue.
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-song-ippm-ioam-data-extension-01
>=20
> I see the latest draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-07 reserved the bit 23. Are yo=
u going
> to define the usage of that bit or not?
> Defer it to other draft or next version?
>=20
> Regards,
> Tianran


From nobody Wed Sep 25 00:09:45 2019
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From: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>
To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>, Tom Herbert <tom@quantonium.net>
CC: "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: In-situ OAM Data Type Extension
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Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 07:09:32 +0000
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Subject: Re: [ippm] In-situ OAM Data Type Extension
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Hi Frank,

OK.=20
IMHO, since you have ready reserved that bit for potential extension, why n=
ot define it?
The data type could be namespace specific. The IETF namespace now does not =
use up the bits, but other namespace may need to extend.

Tianran


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) [mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 2:47 PM
> To: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>; Tom Herbert <tom@quantonium.ne=
t>
> Cc: ippm@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: In-situ OAM Data Type Extension
>=20
> Hi Tianran,
>=20
> Like what you state below: Per Tom's suggestion a reserved bit to ensure =
future
> extensibility was added in the most recent rev, i.e.
> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-07.
> We can define the use of the bit and potential extension once we're in ne=
ed
> of extending. For now we still have plenty of spare bits.
>=20
> Regards, Frank
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>
> > Sent: Mittwoch, 25. September 2019 08:36
> > To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com>; Tom Herbert
> > <tom@quantonium.net>
> > Cc: ippm@ietf.org
> > Subject: In-situ OAM Data Type Extension
> >
> > Hi Frank,
> >
> > I am revisiting the mailing list. And I am interesting about Tom's
> > discussion on IOAM Data Type Extension.
> > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/cp0E8-D0XbgTBy_3Bf6E21z00EA
> >
> > You had the following reply:
> > "* 24 bits Trace type
> > Per your suggestion, reserving a bit to allow for future scalability
> > makes sense - and bit 23 would be an obvious choice; which would in
> > turn mean that we'd need to assign a different bit for checksum
> > complement. If everyone else is fine with this change, we can include t=
his
> change in -07."
> >
> > We also had a draft to address the same issue.
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-song-ippm-ioam-data-extension-01
> >
> > I see the latest draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-07 reserved the bit 23. Are
> > you going to define the usage of that bit or not?
> > Defer it to other draft or next version?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Tianran


From nobody Wed Sep 25 02:55:33 2019
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To: Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de
Cc: ippm@ietf.org
References: <CAH56bmBmywKg_AxsHnRf97Pfxu4Yjsp_fv_s4S7LXk1voQpV1g@mail.gmail.com> <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CFA0ADC777@njmtexg4.research.att.com> <LEXPR01MB05607E081CB169E34587EEEF9CA10@LEXPR01MB0560.DEUPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.DE> <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CFA0AF9184@njmtexg5.research.att.com> <CAH56bmC3gDEDF0wypcN2Lu+Ken3E7f_zXf_5yYbJGURBsju22w@mail.gmail.com> <e782b21f-e475-ca0f-01ac-a195a02fdd36@tuwien.ac.at> <LEJPR01MB1178B3E51EE8BD26673F9F0D9C840@LEJPR01MB1178.DEUPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.DE>
From: Joachim Fabini <joachim.fabini@tuwien.ac.at>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Fwd: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
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Hi Ruediger,

thank you for your comments, answers inline.

On 24/09/2019 12:14, Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de wrote:
> Hi Joachim,
> 
> thanks for adding a discussion related to mobile access behavior. I've read some "streaming QoE over LTE" related publications. These are not BTC related, but LTE and CCA interaction also impacts the packet and flow related measurements performed. One conclusion of these publications is, that throughput fluctuations characterize an LTE access network better, than just average throughput values.

Did these publications use isolated LTE networks or public ones?
Whenever (access) network capacity is shared between users (which is the
case for most cellular users in a cell) this is a potential source of
non-determinism in terms of measurements that is {hard|impossible} to
control. Measurement results depend to a substantial extent on the
traffic profile and timing of competing devices and users.

> 
> Your discussion whether to consider an access showing 94.5 Mbit/s throughput for a short time and 83 Mbit/s for a longer interval may indicate, that singleton, short interval BTC measurements used as samples to build a (or some) BTC statistics_to_be_defined might be useful approach.  

Yes, I like your proposal. A BTC singleton could be measured after
detecting stable conditions and for an interval that is sufficiently
short to increase the likelihood of almost constant parameters. The need
to reflect the "true" path BTC (i.e., the *receiver's* perspective) and
detect/eliminate intermediate node buffering is challenging but imo
crucial for such experiments.

> The above QoE experts use receiver statistics, as you suggest too, however their activities are passive, whereas BTC measurements discussed here are active. I add this to indicate, that a mobile access IPPM BTC metric discussion will have to produce own approaches.

The good news about BTC in mobile networks is that (at least in the
past, when I did measurements) the scheduling/capacity algorithm
predictability and determinism increased for greedy ("the more you ask
for, the more you get") users. And BTC measurements are greedy by
definition.

> I agree that defining "long term average data rate" in a way which is useful to an implementors use case is desirable (the same holds for guidance on a short term singleton BTC metric).

Yes, but again: in white box measurements (without exact knowledge on
the measurement path implementation and configuration) imo there is an
imperative need for the *receiver's* perspective. The *sender* itself
can't differentiate between stateful policing, shaping and buffering
that may happen on the network path.

> To start a discussion: a BTC singleton could consist of back-to-back packets of a length corresponding to an important or expected bottleneck burst tolerance (and/or buffer depth). 

Hmmh. If buffering is known to happen on the path, I consider the BTC
singleton that you mention to be a *prerequisite* for the actual
measurement BTC singleton: The active measurement must send sufficient
data to fill all buffers within the network path under test. Only
subsequent packets allow inference on the path's true BTC.

As a side note: an identical approach ("preload") is used for active
delay measurements in mobile networks: transferring a large data burst
over an idle 3G/4G link makes the radio scheduler to allocate
substantial radio resources (i.e. high capacity) to this link. Sending a
delay measurement packet immediately after the data burst yields delay
values that are by orders of magnitude lower compared to sending the
same packets on an almost idle link.

I mentioned this detail because of two aspects:
1. The same mechanism could be used to create adequate measurement
prerequisites for mobile cellular networks and for fixed access
networks, for BTC and for delay measurements. The packets serve distinct
purpose - force capacity allocation in cellular networks vs. filling
buffers in fixed network paths - but the same method may work for both
cases.
2. Measurement results nowadays depend on the use case (i.e., the
context in which they have been acquired). They reflect the performance
of the network in a particular state that we can (sometimes)
artificially enforce as measurement prerequisite. If the state is the
one encountered in typical operation, then the results are
representative (which will be typically true for BTC). Otherwise they
may be misleading.

> These singletons should be spaced in a way that a loss and may be queue free long term BTC results. 

Sorry, I don't get this last sentence (something missing?).

Regards
Joachim




> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Joachim Fabini <joachim.fabini@tuwien.ac.at> 
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 24. September 2019 11:20
> An: Matt Mathis <mattmathis=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com>; Geib, Rüdiger <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
> Cc: ippm@ietf.org
> Betreff: Re: [ippm] Fwd: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
> 
> Matt,
> 
> access technology was the first question I wanted to ask yesterday, you answered it in your last email.
> Some more comments, questions, and observations:
> - On-demand capacity allocation over time was/is common for mobile cellular access technologies. Superposition of algorithms at various layers (cellular access capacity management, buffering, users in the cell and CCA) generates challenging traces.
> - Some details on the measurement architecture could help: where did you measure BTC: at the receiver, at the sender, at intermediate nodes? Time granularity/resolution?
> - Al made several good points in his replies; the overshooting of BBR in Fig.5a of http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~claypool/papers/driving-bbr/paper-final.pdf is a hint that *if* there are buffers on the path, BBR will attempt to use them. It's the sequence cache-memory-network: first you fill up all local buffers, then the ones at intermediate nodes on the path, and only later on you can measure the network capacity. Still, 4 seconds for the initial 94.5 Mbit/s burst means truly large buffers...
> 
> You asked for an answer and justification - here we go:
> Boiling down to the essence, your question (which capacity to prefer,
> 94.5 or 83Mb/s) imo addresses a weakness of RFC3148. In particular a more accurate definition and refinement of "long term" could help.
> Quoting RFC 3148: "The intuitive definition of BTC is the expected *long
> term* average data rate (bits per second) of a single ideal TCP implementation over the path in question". Is *long term* 4 seconds?
> 10s? 1000s?
> 
> My interpretation is that you meant a "time interval sufficiently large for CCA to converge and reach a steady state" (D1). However, this definition considers E2E control/CCA *only* and falls short of the pitfall that Al and I attempted to address in RFC 7312 for delay measurements in mobile network measurements: today's (access) networks are stateful (the copper wire abstraction fails). This stateful network policing interacts with the end-to-end CCA and originates artificial, non-representative and non-repeatable measurement results. In DOCSIS (that I did not measure) it seems that buffering is the main issue.
> 
> Some more reasoning on your BTC measurements:
> - In your measurements, when BTC is measured at the sender, the informal definition (D1) seems to hold true for a flow that lasts for slightly less than 4 seconds. But do BTC measurements at the receiver's end yield the same results? They may or may not.
> - If the flow duration exceeds 4 seconds, the convergence criterion (as seen by the sender) is no longer fulfilled: conditions change.
> - If I'm asked if 94.5Mb/s or 83Mb/s is "the" path BTC, my decision depends on the receiver view: (a) if some buffers on the network path fill up, but the data rate at the receiver is only 83Mb/s, then the network path's BTC is 83Mb/s. If there's a shaper on the path that grants an initial "data credit" to the sender at full speed and only later on shapes, i.e, the receiver can measure 94.5Mb/s for the first 4 seconds, then I'd agree to a BTC of 94.5Mb/s. However, only for the first 4 second interval or for the first y Mbytes of data.
> 
> My point is that (unfortunately) the measurement of BTC for a network path must be tied to use cases to be meaningful. I'm truly convinced that with today's networks it's an illusion to have one single, representative value "BTC is x Mb/s". Decoupling BTC from the network path's state and its evolution with time may not be feasible.
> 
> Reasoning on objective BTC:
> First, the measurement of stateful network BTC mandate to take into consideration parameters like (a) the network path implementation, configuration and behavior, (b) the measurement point (sender, receiver, intermediate point), and (c) the measurement flow characteristics (duration, total amount of data? Any parameter that influences on the network state wrt the flow?). These are just examples, it may make sense to structure and categorize these influencing parameters.
> 
> Second, the definition (D1) in RFC3148 could be refined. The *long term* should be made explicit, covering two mandatory components: (a) CCA (end-to-end control) reaching a steady state and (b) the network path under observation reaching a steady state over (c) a well-specified interval.
> 
> In order to be meaningful (and scientifically sound), BTC as an intuitive metric should imho reflect a network path's ability to offer a sustained transfer capacity under (almost) constant conditions for a specified time interval (and/or for a specified amount of data?). Still, architecture and implementation of today's (access) networks make it challenging to identify those intervals during which we have constant conditions.
> 
> So the key question is if one can provide a BTC definition that is accurate, representative and simple/usable for the broad mass. (*) Al and his co-authors have included some key aspect in the capacity-metric draft, some aspects of this thread may be added there, too. But BTC imo is different and even more complex to measure.
> 
> regards Joachim
> PS: (*) Leaving aside uncertainty that we will never be able to handle in measurements because of the capacity-sharing in today's access networks (users-in-a-cell, cell usage).
> 
> 
> 
> On 19/09/2019 23:17, Matt Mathis wrote:
>> Ok, moving the thread to IPPM
>>
>> Some background, we (Measurement Lab) are testing a new transport 
>> (TCP) performance measurement tool, based on BBR-TCP.   I'm not ready 
>> to talk about results yet (well ok, it looks pretty good).    (BTW the 
>> BBR algorithm just happens to resemble the algorithm described in 
>> draft-morton-ippm-capcity-metric-method-00.)
>>
>> Anyhow we noticed some interesting performance features for number of 
>> ISPs in the US and Europe and I wanted to get some input for how these 
>> cases should be treated.
>>
>> One data point, a single trace saw ~94.5 Mbit/s for ~4 seconds, 
>> fluctuating performance ~75 Mb/s for ~1 second and then stable 
>> performance at ~83Mb/s for the rest of the 10 second test.    If I 
>> were to guess this is probably a policer (shaper?) with a 1 MB token 
>> bucket and a ~83Mb/s token rate (these numbers are not corrected for 
>> header overheads, which actually matter with this tool).  What is 
>> weird about it is that different ingress interfaces to the ISP (peers 
>> or serving locations) exhibit different parameters.
>>
>> Now the IPPM measurement question:   Is the bulk transport capacity of 
>> this link ~94.5 Mbit/s or ~83Mb/s?   Justify your answer....?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --MM--
>> The best way to predict the future is to create it.  - Alan Kay
>>
>> We must not tolerate intolerance;
>>        however our response must be carefully measured:
>>             too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out 
>> of control;
>>             too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.
>>
>> Forwarded Conversation
>> Subject: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
>> ------------------------
>>
>> From: *Matt Mathis* <mattmathis@google.com 
>> <mailto:mattmathis@google.com>>
>> Date: Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 8:55 AM
>> To: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com 
>> <mailto:acm@research.att.com>>
>>
>>
>> We are seeing shapers  with huge bucket sizes, perhaps as larger or 
>> larger than 100 MB.
>>
>> These are prohibitive to test by default, but can have a huge impact 
>> in some common situations.  E.g. downloading software updates.
>>
>> An unconditional pass is not good, because some buckets are small.  
>> What counts as large enough to be ok, and what "derating" is ok?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --MM--
>> The best way to predict the future is to create it.  - Alan Kay
>>
>> We must not tolerate intolerance;
>>        however our response must be carefully measured:
>>             too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out 
>> of control;
>>             too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.
>>
>>
>> ----------
>> From: *MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)* <acm@research.att.com 
>> <mailto:acm@research.att.com>>
>> Date: Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 5:08 AM
>> To: Matt Mathis <mattmathis@google.com <mailto:mattmathis@google.com>>
>> Cc: CIAVATTONE, LEN <lc9892@att.com <mailto:lc9892@att.com>>, 
>> Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de> 
>> <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Matt, currently cruising between Crete and Malta,____
>>
>> with about 7 days of vacation remaining – Adding my friend Len.____
>>
>> You know Rüdiger. It appears I’ve forgotten how to typs in 2 weeks____
>>
>> given the number of typos I’ve fixed so far...____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> We’ve seen big buffers on a basic DOCSIS cable service (downlink >2 
>> sec)____
>>
>> but,____
>>
>>   we have 1-way delay variation or RTT variation limits____
>>
>>   when searching for the max rate, that don’t many packets ____
>>
>>   queue in the buffer____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>>   we want the status messages that result in rate adjustment to 
>> return____
>>
>>  in a reasonable amount of time (50ms + RTT)____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>>   we usually search for 10 seconds, but if we go back and test with 
>> ____
>>
>>   a fixed rate, we can see the buffer growing if the rate is too 
>> high.____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>>   There will eventually be a discussion on the thresholds we use____
>>
>>   in the search // load rate control algorithm. The copy of ____
>>
>>   Y.1540 I sent you has a simple one, we moved beyond that now____
>>
>>   (see the slides I didn’t get to present at IETF).____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>>   There is value in having some of this discussion on IPPM-list,____
>>
>>   so we get some **agenda time at IETF-106** ____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> We measure rate and performance, with some performance limits____
>>
>> built-in.  Pass/Fail is another step, de-rating too (made sense ____
>>
>> with MBM “target_rate”).____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Al____
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------
>> From: <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>>
>> Date: Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 12:05 AM
>> To: <acm@research.att.com <mailto:acm@research.att.com>>
>> Cc: <lc9892@att.com <mailto:lc9892@att.com>>, <mattmathis@google.com 
>> <mailto:mattmathis@google.com>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Al,____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> thanks for keeping me involved. I don’t have a precise answer and 
>> doubt, that there will be a single universal truth. ____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> If the aim is only to determine the IP bandwidth of an access, then we 
>> aren’t interested in filling a buffer. Buffering events may occur, 
>> some of which are useful and to be expected, whereas others are not 
>> desired:____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>>   * Sender shaping behavior may matter (is traffic at the source CBR or
>>     is it bursty)____
>>   * Random collisions should be tolerated at the access whose bandwidth
>>     is to be measured.____
>>   * Limiting packet drop due to buffer overflow is a design aim or an
>>     important part of the algorithm, I think.____
>>   * Shared media might create bursts. I’m not an expert in the area, but
>>     there’s an “is bandwidth available” check in some cases between a
>>     central sender using a shared medium and the receivers connected.
>>     WiFi and may be other wireless equipment buffers packets also to
>>     optimize wireless resource optimization.____
>>   * It might be an idea to mark some flows by ECN, once there’s a guess
>>     on a sending bitrate when to expect no or very little packet drop.
>>     Today, this is experimental. CE marks by an ECN capable device
>>     should be expected roughly once queuing starts.____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Practically, the set-up should be configurable with commodity hard- 
>> and software and all metrics should be measurable at the receiver.
>> Burstiness of traffic and a distinction between queuing events which 
>> are to be expected and (undesired) queue build up are the events to be 
>> distinguished. I hope that can be done with commodity hard- and 
>> software. I at least am not able to write down a simple metric 
>> distinguishing queues to be expected from (undesired) queue build up 
>> causing congestion. The hard- and software to be used should be part 
>> of the solution, not part of the problem (bursty source traffic and 
>> timestamps with insufficient accuracy to detect queues are what I’d 
>> like to avoid).____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> I’d suggest to move discussion to the list. ____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Regards,____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Rüdiger____
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------
>> From: *MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)* <acm@research.att.com 
>> <mailto:acm@research.att.com>>
>> Date: Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 7:01 AM
>> To: Ruediger.Geib@telekom..de <mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de> 
>> <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>>
>> Cc: CIAVATTONE, LEN <lc9892@att.com <mailto:lc9892@att.com>>, 
>> mattmathis@google.com <mailto:mattmathis@google.com> 
>> <mattmathis@google.com <mailto:mattmathis@google.com>>
>>
>>
>> I’m catching-up with this thread again, but before I reply:____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> *** Any objection to moving this discussion to IPPM-list ?? ***____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> @Matt – this is a question to you at this point...____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> thanks,____
>>
>> Al____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> *From:*Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de> 
>> [mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>]
>> *Sent:* Monday, August 26, 2019 3:05 AM
>> *To:* MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com 
>> <mailto:acm@research.att.com>>
>> *Cc:* CIAVATTONE, LEN <lc9892@att.com <mailto:lc9892@att.com>>; 
>> mattmathis@google.com <mailto:mattmathis@google.com>
>> *Subject:* AW: How should capacity measurement interact with 
>> shaping?____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Hi Al,____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> thanks for keeping me involved. I don’t have a precise answer and 
>> doubt, that there will be a single universal truth. ____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> If the aim is only to determine the IP bandwidth of an access, then we 
>> aren’t interested in filling a buffer. Buffering events may occur, 
>> some of which are useful and to be expected, whereas others are not 
>> desired:____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> __-        __Sender shaping behavior may matter (is traffic at the 
>> source CBR or is it bursty)____
>>
>> __-        __Random collisions should be tolerated at the access whose 
>> bandwidth is to be measured.____
>>
>> __-        __Limiting packet drop due to buffer overflow is a design 
>> aim or an important part of the algorithm, I think.____
>>
>> __-        __Shared media might create bursts. I’m not an expert in 
>> the area, but there’s an “is bandwidth available” check in some cases 
>> between a central sender using a shared medium and the receivers 
>> connected. WiFi and may be other wireless equipment buffers packets 
>> also to optimize wireless resource optimization.____
>>
>> __-        __It might be an idea to mark some flows by ECN, once 
>> there’s a guess on a sending bitrate when to expect no or very little 
>> packet drop. Today, this is experimental. CE marks by an ECN capable 
>> device should be expected roughly once queuing starts.____
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ippm mailing list
>> ippm@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>>
> 
> 


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Subject: Re: [ippm] Fwd: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
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Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net>, draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options@ietf.org, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
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> On Sep 19, 2019, at 11:55 AM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Dear Authors, et al.,
> I have a number of questions on this draft and hope you'll find time =
to clarify some aspects of iOAM encapsulation in IPv6 EHs:
> format of both Hop-by-Hop Options header and Destination Options =
header, as defined in RFC 8200, allow the length of Options field in the =
header to be no more than 2K - 2 octets. I consider that to be an =
important limitation of the proposed encapsulation method but I don't =
find that being discussed in the document.
> Section 3 of your draft defines iOAM Option encapsulation format. How =
this encapsulation relates to the encapsulation of IPv6 options for the =
Hop-by-Hop Options header and Destination Options header?
> Section 4.2 in RFC 8200 defines four types of actions to be associated =
with the option. Which of these and in what scenarios may be used to =
carry iOAM information in IPv6 packet?
> Also, in Section 4.2 defined on-bit long flag in the Option Type field =
to indicate whether option data may change en route. How this flag will =
be used when iOAM option data encapsulated in IPv6 EHs?
> Further, the question of choosing a padding option - Pad1 or PadN? =
Which these two to be used for iOAM data in IPv6 EHs?
> With this number of technical issues being underspecified, I don't =
support the adoption of the draft by IPPM WG. And I feel that it would =
be more appropriate to ask 6man WG to host this work.

We did ask 6man to host this work, but the advise from the group and the =
6man chairs was that they wanted the work done in IPPM, with review by =
6man.

I do think these review points you bring up are good to clarify and =
address in the document, and we will make sure that such clarification =
is made as a working group doc.

Thanks,
Tommy
>=20
> Regards,
> Greg
>=20
> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 9:11 AM Tommy Pauly =
<tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
> Hello IPPM,
>=20
> This email starts a working group adoption call for =
draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options. This document defines the =
IPv6 option encapsulation for IOAM data. This document was discussed =
with the 6man WG, which advised that the work be done in ippm, with =
review by 6man.
>=20
> The documents are available here:
>=20
> =
https://datatracker.ietf..org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-optio=
ns/ =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-optio=
ns/>
> =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options-02 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options-02=
>
>=20
> Please reply to this email by Wednesday, September 25, with your input =
on whether or not the WG should adopt this document.
>=20
> Best,
> Tommy (as IPPM co-chair)
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org <mailto:ippm@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Sep 19, 2019, at 11:55 AM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">Dear Authors, et al.,<div class=3D"">I have a number of =
questions on this draft and hope you'll find time to clarify some =
aspects of iOAM encapsulation in IPv6 EHs:</div><div class=3D""><ul =
class=3D""><li class=3D"">format of both Hop-by-Hop Options header and =
Destination Options header, as defined in RFC 8200, allow the length of =
Options field in the header to be no more than 2K - 2 octets. I consider =
that to be an important limitation of the proposed encapsulation method =
but I don't find that being discussed in the document.</li><li =
class=3D"">Section 3 of your draft defines iOAM Option =
encapsulation&nbsp;format. How this encapsulation relates to the =
encapsulation of IPv6 options for the Hop-by-Hop Options header and =
Destination Options header?</li><li class=3D"">Section 4.2 in RFC 8200 =
defines four types of actions to be associated with the option. Which of =
these and in what scenarios may be used to carry iOAM information in =
IPv6 packet?</li><li class=3D"">Also, in Section 4.2 defined on-bit long =
flag in the Option Type field to indicate whether option data may change =
en route. How this flag will be used when iOAM option data encapsulated =
in IPv6 EHs?</li><li class=3D"">Further, the question of choosing a =
padding option - Pad1 or PadN? Which these two to be used for iOAM data =
in IPv6 EHs?</li></ul><div class=3D"">With this number of technical =
issues being underspecified, I don't support the adoption of the draft =
by IPPM WG. And I feel that it would be more appropriate to ask 6man WG =
to host this work.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div>We did ask 6man to host this work, but the =
advise from the group and the 6man chairs was that they wanted the work =
done in IPPM, with review by 6man.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I =
do think these review points you bring up are good to clarify and =
address in the document, and we will make sure that such clarification =
is made as a working group doc.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Tommy<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Regards,</div><div =
class=3D"">Greg</div></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 9:11 AM Tommy =
Pauly &lt;tpauly=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hello IPPM,<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
This email starts a working group adoption call for =
draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options. This document defines the =
IPv6 option encapsulation for IOAM data. This document was discussed =
with the 6man WG, which advised that the work be done in ippm, with =
review by 6man.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
The documents are available here:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv=
6-options/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf..org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam=
-ipv6-options/</a><br class=3D"">
<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-opt=
ions-02" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-=
options-02</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Please reply to this email by Wednesday, September 25, with your input =
on whether or not the WG should adopt this document.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Best,<br class=3D"">
Tommy (as IPPM co-chair)<br class=3D"">
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
ippm mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">ippm@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm</a><br class=3D"">
</blockquote></div>
--------------------------------------------------------------------<br =
class=3D"">IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" class=3D"">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">Administrative Requests: =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6<br =
class=3D"">---------------------------------------------------------------=
-----<br class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options
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Hello IPPM,

Thanks for all of the feedback. It seems that the rough consensus of the =
group is that we should adopt this document.

As we progress with this document, we should expect to share it with =
6man and get input and review feedback from that group.

Authors, please submit a "draft-ietf-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options-00" =
when ready. It would be good to incorporate some of the review feedback =
received on this thread.

Thanks,
Tommy

> On Sep 11, 2019, at 9:10 AM, Tommy Pauly =
<tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
> Hello IPPM,
>=20
> This email starts a working group adoption call for =
draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options. This document defines the =
IPv6 option encapsulation for IOAM data. This document was discussed =
with the 6man WG, which advised that the work be done in ippm, with =
review by 6man.
>=20
> The documents are available here:
>=20
> =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-option=
s/
> =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options-02
>=20
> Please reply to this email by Wednesday, September 25, with your input =
on whether or not the WG should adopt this document.
>=20
> Best,
> Tommy (as IPPM co-chair)
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm


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To: Matt Mathis <mattmathis=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
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Dear Matt,

I use to discuss with Al and R=C3=BCdiger about some issues about =
measurements in IP networks.=20
I would like to introduce another point of view (sorry to get the =
"entropy" larger=E2=80=A6), In my opinion one part of the problem is =
that one would like to establish how significant is the Internet =
connection, and it depends not only on the channel technology but in a =
lot of other parameters (like "buckets", etc.). My question is: why one =
wants to measure the "real" access if this one could not be available =
100% of the time at that specific speed? It is clearly not realistic =
that an ISP provides 100Mbps all the time for every customer; therefore, =
another kind of measurement could be considered.=20
Form the other optic, BBR is a great technique to achieve the best =
possible capacity incredibly quick, and here the problem is another. (By =
the way, I think that the BBR difficulty is potentially related to  the =
interactions with several concurrent flows; which, even if there are =
some studies, I think it is not entirely understood.)=20
Then, there are situations, from the user-application, that it is needed =
to use a high capacity during a  time (i.e., security software updates), =
and this could be interesting to provide protocols, like BBR, to ensure =
that.
What end you pursuit? Understand what is happening on the network to =
bring a solution to this kind of applications, or you would like to =
measure the properties?=20
For my point of view (sorry Al to repeat this one more time), if we like =
to produce some information about the network status for the end-user, =
we need to work on parameters that express the "quality": quite hard.=20
On idea on this path is to know if my network could carry some "bursty" =
traffic in *every* time; which means to measure continuously, i.e., we =
cannot saturate the link all the time. This fact leads to another idea: =
to develop an active and low impact measurement to asses to quality: can =
I send or receive some busty traffic? I understand that how long and how =
much "bursty" is not defined here, but we can figure out (or try some =
reasonable numbers at least ). I got a couple of ideas using RTTs and my =
experience measuring RTTs on IP networks.
The central part here is that performing measurement using bottleneck =
limit trigger different mechanisms, like one that you described, but =
potentially others more complex. (By the way, avoiding lost packets but =
controlling the delay is an exciting way to influence BBR).

Best,

	Ignacio


_______________________________________________________________

Dr. Ing. Jos=C3=A9 Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin
CONICET and Facultad de Ingenier=C3=ADa, Universidad de Buenos Aires
Av. Paseo Col=C3=B3n 850 - C1063ACV - Buenos Aires - Argentina
+54 (11) 5285 0716 / 5285 0705
e-mail: ihameli@cnet.fi.uba.ar
web: http://cnet.fi.uba.ar/ignacio.alvarez-hamelin/
_______________________________________________________________



> On 21 Sep 2019, at 15:32, Matt Mathis =
<mattmathis=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
> Yes, exactly, I am sure this is a provider's feature.   I have a =
receiver side pcap, and it is quite a bit more complicated than I =
thought:
> - Zero losses in the entire trace.  It is dynamically shaped at a =
bottleneck with a long queue that is pacing packets.
> - The initial part is really straight (looks like a hard limit)
> - The rate (and packet headway) smoothly wanders irregularly all over =
the place in the latter part of the trace, from a low of about 1 Mb/s to =
peaks close to the max rate.   My earlier data was from BBR max_rate, so =
the fluctuating rate apparently has stable peaks.
>=20
> By smooth: it looked like a spline fit, suggesting the instantaneous =
packet headway was determined by a differential equation....
>=20
> This behavior is not an accident, but the result of a very =
sophisticated controller.   And we have seen other bottlenecks like it =
elsewhere in the US and Europe.
>=20
> As people may know, I do believe that shaping is the most appropriate =
way to deal with heavy hitters.  And that we (IPPM) really need a way to =
characterize shaping.  I do care about the asymptotic rate, and how =
quickly I fall out of the initial rate.
>=20
> Thanks,
> --MM--
> The best way to predict the future is to create it.  - Alan Kay
>=20
> We must not tolerate intolerance;
>        however our response must be carefully measured:=20
>             too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out =
of control;
>             too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.
>=20
>=20
> On Sat, Sep 21, 2019 at 8:34 AM MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) =
<acm@research.att.com> wrote:
> Hi Matt,
>=20
> =20
>=20
> I had another thought about the 94 > 75 > 83 Mbps trace:
>=20
> This might well be a service provider=E2=80=99s feature, where
>=20
> they favor new flows with a high-rate for a short amount
>=20
> of time.  I remember some ISPs offering a =E2=80=9Cspeed boost=E2=80=9D
>=20
> to load web pages fast, but settling to a lower rate for
>=20
> longer transfers. The same strategy could help reduce
>=20
> the initial buffering time for video streams, perhaps with
>=20
> different time intervals and rates. This might be implemented
>=20
> by changing the token rate, or through some other means.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> From: Matt Mathis [mailto:mattmathis@google.com]=20
> Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 9:43 PM
> To: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com>
> Cc: Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de; ippm@ietf.org; CIAVATTONE, LEN =
<lc9892@att.com>
> Subject: Re: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
>=20
> =20
>=20
> I am actually more interested in the philosophical questions about how =
this should be reported, and what should the language be about =
non-stationary available capacity.   One intersecting issue: BBR =
converges on both the initial and final rate in under 2 seconds (this =
was a long path, so startup took more than a second).   Do users want a =
quick (and relatively cheap) test that takes 2 seconds or a longer test =
that is more likely to discover the token bucket?  How long?  If we want =
to call them different names, what should they be?
>=20
> [acm]
>=20
> So, if your trace is revealing a bimodal form of service rates,
>=20
> then it ought to be characterized with that in mind and
>=20
> allow for two modes of operation when reporting:
>=20
> 94 initial peak Capacity, 83 sustained Capacity
>=20
> *when this behavior is demonstrated and repeatable=E2=80=9D.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Thanks for more insights about BBR, too.
>=20
> Al
>=20
> =20
>=20
> On the pure technical issues: BBR is still quite a moving target.   I =
have a paper in draft that will shed some light on this.  It is due to =
be unembargoed sometime in October.
>=20
> BBRv1 (released slightly after the cacm paper you mention) measures =
the max_BW every 8 RTT.  BBRv2 measures the max_BW on a sliding schedule =
that loosely matches CUBIC.  (In both, min_RTT is measured every 10 =
seconds, in the absence of organic low RTT samples).   BBRv2 uses =
additional signals and does a much better job of avoiding overshoot at =
the startup.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> In any case the best (most stable) BBR based metric seems to be =
delta(snd.una)/elapsed_time, which is the progress as seen by upper =
layers.  If you look at short time slices (we happen to be using 0.25 =
seconds) you see a mostly crisp square wave.  If you average from the =
beginning of the connection to now, the peak rate happens at the moment =
the bucket runs out of tokens, and falls towards the toke rate after =
that.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> --MM--
> The best way to predict the future is to create it.  - Alan Kay
>=20
> We must not tolerate intolerance;
>=20
>        however our response must be carefully measured:=20
>=20
>             too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out =
of control;
>=20
>             too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 3:35 PM MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) =
<acm@research.att.com> wrote:
>=20
> Thanks Matt!  This is an interesting trace to consider,
>=20
> and an important discussion to share with the group.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> When I look at the equation for BBR:
>=20
> =
https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2017/2/212428-bbr-congestion-based-congesti=
on-control/fulltext
>=20
> =20
>=20
> both BBR and Maximum IP-layer Capacity Metric seek the
>=20
> Max over some time interval. The window seems smaller for
>=20
> BBR: 6 to 10 RTTs, where we=E2=80=99ve been using parameters that
>=20
> result in a rate measurement once a second and take the max
>=20
> of the 10 one-second measurements.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> We=E2=80=99ve also evaluate several performance metrics when
>=20
> adjusting load, and that determines how high the sending
>=20
> rate will go (based on feedback from the receiver).
>=20
> =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-morton-ippm-capcity-metric-method-00#sec=
tion-4.3
>=20
> =20
>=20
> So, it seems that the MAX delivered rate for the 10 second test,  we
>=20
> can all see is 94.5 Mbps. This rate was sustained for more
>=20
> than a trivial amount of time, too. But if you are concerned that this
>=20
> rate was somehow inflated by a large buffer and a large
>=20
> burst tolerance in the shaper =E2=80=93 that=E2=80=99s where the =
additional
>=20
> metrics and slightly different sending rate control
>=20
> that we described in the draft (and the slides) might help.
>=20
> =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-ippm-metrics=
-and-methods-for-ip-capacity-00
>=20
> =20
>=20
> IOW, it might well be that Max IP Capacity, measured as we designed
>=20
> and parameterized it, measures 83 Mbps for this path
>=20
> (assuming the 94.5 is the result of big overshoot at sender, and the
>=20
> fluctuating performance afterward seems to support that).
>=20
> =20
>=20
> When I was looking for background on BBR, I saw a paper comparing
>=20
> BBR and CUBIC during drive tests.
>=20
> http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~claypool/papers/driving-bbr/
>=20
> One pair of plots seemed to indicate that BBR sent lots of Bytes
>=20
> early-on, and grew the RTT pretty high before settling down
>=20
> (Figure 5, a & b).
>=20
> This looks a bit like the case you described below,
>=20
> except 94.5 Mbps is a Received Rate =E2=80=93 we don=E2=80=99t know
>=20
> what came out of the network, just what went in and filled
>=20
> a buffer before crashing down in the drive test.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> So, I think I did more investigation than justification
>=20
> for my answers, but I conclude the parameters like the
>=20
> individual measurement intervals and overall time interval
>=20
> from which the Max is drawn, plus the rate control algorithm
>=20
> itself, play a big role here.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> regards,
>=20
> Al
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> From: Matt Mathis [mailto:mattmathis@google.com]=20
> Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 5:18 PM
> To: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com>; =
Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de
> Cc: ippm@ietf.org
> Subject: Fwd: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Ok, moving the thread to IPPM
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Some background, we (Measurement Lab) are testing a new transport =
(TCP) performance measurement tool, based on BBR-TCP.   I'm not ready to =
talk about results yet (well ok, it looks pretty good).    (BTW the BBR =
algorithm just happens to resemble the algorithm described in =
draft-morton-ippm-capcity-metric-method-00.)
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Anyhow we noticed some interesting performance features for number of =
ISPs in the US and Europe and I wanted to get some input for how these =
cases should be treated.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> One data point, a single trace saw ~94.5 Mbit/s for ~4 seconds, =
fluctuating performance ~75 Mb/s for ~1 second and then stable =
performance at ~83Mb/s for the rest of the 10 second test.    If I were =
to guess this is probably a policer (shaper?) with a 1 MB token bucket =
and a ~83Mb/s token rate (these numbers are not corrected for header =
overheads, which actually matter with this tool).  What is weird about =
it is that different ingress interfaces to the ISP (peers or serving =
locations) exhibit different parameters. =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Now the IPPM measurement question:   Is the bulk transport capacity of =
this link ~94.5 Mbit/s or ~83Mb/s?   Justify your answer....?
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> --MM--
> The best way to predict the future is to create it.  - Alan Kay
>=20
> We must not tolerate intolerance;
>=20
>        however our response must be carefully measured:=20
>=20
>             too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out =
of control;
>=20
>             too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Forwarded Conversation
> Subject: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
> ------------------------
>=20
> =20
>=20
> From: Matt Mathis <mattmathis@google.com>
> Date: Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 8:55 AM
> To: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com>
>=20
> =20
>=20
> We are seeing shapers  with huge bucket sizes, perhaps as larger or =
larger than 100 MB.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> These are prohibitive to test by default, but can have a huge impact =
in some common situations.  E.g. downloading software updates.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> An unconditional pass is not good, because some buckets are small.  =
What counts as large enough to be ok, and what "derating" is ok?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> --MM--
> The best way to predict the future is to create it.  - Alan Kay
>=20
> We must not tolerate intolerance;
>=20
>        however our response must be carefully measured:=20
>=20
>             too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out =
of control;
>=20
>             too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> ----------
> From: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com>
> Date: Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 5:08 AM
> To: Matt Mathis <mattmathis@google.com>
> Cc: CIAVATTONE, LEN <lc9892@att.com>, Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de =
<Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Hi Matt, currently cruising between Crete and Malta,
>=20
> with about 7 days of vacation remaining =E2=80=93 Adding my friend =
Len.
>=20
> You know R=C3=BCdiger. It appears I=E2=80=99ve forgotten how to typs =
in 2 weeks
>=20
> given the number of typos I=E2=80=99ve fixed so far...
>=20
> =20
>=20
> We=E2=80=99ve seen big buffers on a basic DOCSIS cable service =
(downlink >2 sec)
>=20
> but,
>=20
>   we have 1-way delay variation or RTT variation limits
>=20
>   when searching for the max rate, that don=E2=80=99t many packets
>=20
>   queue in the buffer
>=20
> =20
>=20
>   we want the status messages that result in rate adjustment to return
>=20
>  in a reasonable amount of time (50ms + RTT)
>=20
> =20
>=20
>   we usually search for 10 seconds, but if we go back and test with
>=20
>   a fixed rate, we can see the buffer growing if the rate is too high.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>   There will eventually be a discussion on the thresholds we use
>=20
>   in the search // load rate control algorithm. The copy of
>=20
>   Y.1540 I sent you has a simple one, we moved beyond that now
>=20
>   (see the slides I didn=E2=80=99t get to present at IETF).
>=20
> =20
>=20
>   There is value in having some of this discussion on IPPM-list,
>=20
>   so we get some *agenda time at IETF-106*
>=20
> =20
>=20
> We measure rate and performance, with some performance limits
>=20
> built-in.  Pass/Fail is another step, de-rating too (made sense
>=20
> with MBM =E2=80=9Ctarget_rate=E2=80=9D).
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Al
>=20
> =20
>=20
> ----------
> From: <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
> Date: Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 12:05 AM
> To: <acm@research.att.com>
> Cc: <lc9892@att.com>, <mattmathis@google.com>
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Hi Al,
>=20
> =20
>=20
> thanks for keeping me involved. I don=E2=80=99t have a precise answer =
and doubt, that there will be a single universal truth.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> If the aim is only to determine the IP bandwidth of an access, then we =
aren=E2=80=99t interested in filling a buffer. Buffering events may =
occur, some of which are useful and to be expected, whereas others are =
not desired:
>=20
> =20
>=20
> 	=E2=80=A2 Sender shaping behavior may matter (is traffic at the =
source CBR or is it bursty)
> 	=E2=80=A2 Random collisions should be tolerated at the access =
whose bandwidth is to be measured.
> 	=E2=80=A2 Limiting packet drop due to buffer overflow is a =
design aim or an important part of the algorithm, I think.
> 	=E2=80=A2 Shared media might create bursts. I=E2=80=99m not an =
expert in the area, but there=E2=80=99s an =E2=80=9Cis bandwidth =
available=E2=80=9D check in some cases between a central sender using a =
shared medium and the receivers connected. WiFi and may be other =
wireless equipment buffers packets also to optimize wireless resource =
optimization.
> 	=E2=80=A2 It might be an idea to mark some flows by ECN, once =
there=E2=80=99s a guess on a sending bitrate when to expect no or very =
little packet drop. Today, this is experimental. CE marks by an ECN =
capable device should be expected roughly once queuing starts.
> =20
>=20
> Practically, the set-up should be configurable with commodity hard- =
and software and all metrics should be measurable at the receiver. =
Burstiness of traffic and a distinction between queuing events which are =
to be expected and (undesired) queue build up are the events to be =
distinguished. I hope that can be done with commodity hard- and =
software. I at least am not able to write down a simple metric =
distinguishing queues to be expected from (undesired) queue build up =
causing congestion. The hard- and software to be used should be part of =
the solution, not part of the problem (bursty source traffic and =
timestamps with insufficient accuracy to detect queues are what I=E2=80=99=
d like to avoid).
>=20
> =20
>=20
> I=E2=80=99d suggest to move discussion to the list.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> =20
>=20
> R=C3=BCdiger
>=20
> =20
>=20
> ----------
> From: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com>
> Date: Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 7:01 AM
> To: Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
> Cc: CIAVATTONE, LEN <lc9892@att.com>, mattmathis@google.com =
<mattmathis@google.com>
>=20
> =20
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m catching-up with this thread again, but before I reply:
>=20
> =20
>=20
> *** Any objection to moving this discussion to IPPM-list ?? ***
>=20
> =20
>=20
> @Matt =E2=80=93 this is a question to you at this point...
>=20
> =20
>=20
> thanks,
>=20
> Al
>=20
> =20
>=20
> From: Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de [mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de]=20
> Sent: Monday, August 26, 2019 3:05 AM
> To: MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) <acm@research.att.com>
> Cc: CIAVATTONE, LEN <lc9892@att.com>; mattmathis@google.com
> Subject: AW: How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Hi Al,
>=20
> =20
>=20
> thanks for keeping me involved. I don=E2=80=99t have a precise answer =
and doubt, that there will be a single universal truth.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> If the aim is only to determine the IP bandwidth of an access, then we =
aren=E2=80=99t interested in filling a buffer. Buffering events may =
occur, some of which are useful and to be expected, whereas others are =
not desired:
>=20
> =20
>=20
> -        Sender shaping behavior may matter (is traffic at the source =
CBR or is it bursty)
>=20
> -        Random collisions should be tolerated at the access whose =
bandwidth is to be measured.
>=20
> -        Limiting packet drop due to buffer overflow is a design aim =
or an important part of the algorithm, I think.
>=20
> -        Shared media might create bursts. I=E2=80=99m not an expert =
in the area, but there=E2=80=99s an =E2=80=9Cis bandwidth available=E2=80=9D=
 check in some cases between a central sender using a shared medium and =
the receivers connected. WiFi and may be other wireless equipment =
buffers packets also to optimize wireless resource optimization.
>=20
> -        It might be an idea to mark some flows by ECN, once there=E2=80=
=99s a guess on a sending bitrate when to expect no or very little =
packet drop. Today, this is experimental. CE marks by an ECN capable =
device should be expected roughly once queuing starts.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm


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From: <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
To: <ihameli@cnet.fi.uba.ar>
CC: <ippm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [ippm] How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
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Subject: Re: [ippm] How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
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From nobody Thu Sep 26 01:41:38 2019
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From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
To: "gregimirsky@gmail.com" <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: "draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-ippm-stamp@ietf.org>, "iesg@ietf.org" <iesg@ietf.org>, "tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com" <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com>, "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Magnus Westerlund's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Magnus Westerlund's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Greg,

This clarifies it sufficiently. I have cleared my discuss.=20

Thanks

Magnus

On Tue, 2019-09-24 at 13:39 -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> Hi Magnus,
> a new section, Operational Considerations, has been added to address Barr=
y's
> DISCUSS:
>=20
> 5.  Operational Considerations
>=20
>    STAMP is intended to be used on production networks to enable the
>    operator to assess service level agreements based on packet delay,
>    delay variation, and loss.  When using STAMP over the Internet,
>    especially when STAMP test packets are transmitted with the
>    destination UDP port number from the User Ports range, the possible
>    impact of the STAMP test packets MUST be thoroughly analyzed.  The
>    use of STAMP for each case MUST be agreed by users of nodes hosting
>    the Session-Sender and Session-Reflector before starting the STAMP
>    test session.
>=20
>    Also, the use of the well-known port number as the destination UDP
>    port number in STAMP test packets transmitted by a Session-Sender
>    would not impede the ability to measure performance in an Equal Cost
>    Multipath environment and analysis in Section 5.3 [RFC8545] fully
>    applies to STAMP.
>=20
> Would it address your concern?
>=20
> The new version of the draft has been published. It includes all the upda=
tes
> we've discussed.
>=20
> Much appreciate your consideration of the new version, comments, and
> questions.
>=20
> Kind regards,
> Greg
>=20
> On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 8:29 AM Magnus Westerlund <
> magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2019-09-11 at 11:33 -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> > > Hi Magnus,
> > > thank you for clarifications and further detailing your comments,
> > > questions. Please find my answers and notes below in-lined under the
> > > GIM2>> tag.
> > >=20
> > > Regards,
> > > Greg
> > >=20
> > > On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 12:53 AM Magnus Westerlund <
> > > magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > > > Hi Greg,
> > > >=20
> > > > Thanks for the reply. See inline for my comments and response.=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > On Tue, 2019-09-10 at 12:43 -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> > > > > Hi Magnus,
> > > > > thank you for the review and thoughtful, pointed questions.
> > > > Please
> > > > > find my answers in-line under GIM>> tag.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Greg
> > > > >=20
> > > > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 3:54 PM Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker
> > > > <
> > > > > noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
> > > > > > Magnus Westerlund has entered the following ballot position for
> > > > > > draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply
> > > > to
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to
> > > > cut
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > introductory paragraph, however.)
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > Please refer to=20
> > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> > > > > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found
> > > > here:
> > > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > ----
> > > > > > -----
> > > > > > DISCUSS:
> > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > ----
> > > > > > -----
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > Two very much discussing discusses. However, I would really
> > > > like to
> > > > > > hear the
> > > > > > answer to these concerns before clearing.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > 1. Section 4.3: Is the HMAC field size of 16 bytes hard coded?
> > > > If
> > > > > > there ever
> > > > > > would exist a need to deploy another integrity solution, even
> > > > if
> > > > > > the actual
> > > > > > algorithm used to construct the tag can be agreed by the
> > > > > > management, there
> > > > > > appear to exist a hard look in to use 16-byte tags. Have this
> > > > issue
> > > > > > been
> > > > > > considered?
> > > > >=20
> > > > > GIM>> Indeed, this specification defines the use of only one
> > > > > algorithm and only 16 bytes-long HMAC field. Your question
> > > > prompted
> > > > > the discussion among authors and we believe that in a future
> > > > > specification it would be feasible to extend supporting a number
> > > > of
> > > > > algorithms and different lengths of HMAC field both being defined
> > > > > through extension to STAMP YANG data model.
> > > >=20
> > > > So if I understand this (taking a discussion with Mirja about
> > > > keeping
> > > > things as simple as possible) the solution is to basically is when
> > > > need
> > > > arises define a new STAMP version, and then use YANG to coordinate
> > > > which version is used for the measurement. If that is a correct re-
> > > > interpretation of your response then I am fine with it.=20
> > >=20
> > > GIM2>> The direction from the WG was to keep the base specification
> > > as simple  as possible (and that was the reason to split TLV
> > > extensions into a separate document).=20
> >=20
> > Yes, understood.=20
> >=20
> > > > > >         2. Section 6:
> > > > > >         The possible impact of the
> > > > > >    STAMP test packets on the network MUST be thoroughly
> > > > analyzed,
> > > > > > and
> > > > > >    the use of STAMP for each case MUST be agreed by all users
> > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > >    network before starting the STAMP test session.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > >         I assume some potential issues are know, shouldn't they
> > > > > > really be
> > > > > >         listed here in the security consideration to further
> > > > > > motivate why the
> > > > > >         analysis needs to happen.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > GIM>> This is in reference to using numbers from the User range
> > > > as
> > > > > the destination port number. Would adding the reference to the
> > > > case
> > > > > of using the port numbers from the User range address your
> > > > concern?
> > > > > Or rather refer to Section 4, as it includes more discussion
> > > > (see=20
> > > > > below)?=20
> > > >=20
> > > > Okay, I don't really care where the discussion happens. But I don't
> > > > find any real discussion and listing of the concerns with using
> > > > user or
> > > > dynamic ports for STAMP Sessions? With the formulation you use, I
> > > > would
> > > > expect at least some list of potential concerns that needs to be
> > > > evaluated in the context of the particular usage of STAMP.=20
> > >=20
> > > GIM2>> Per Berry's suggestion, I'm adding a new section, Operational
> > > Considerations, to list possible scenarios and possible issues with
> > > using destination ports from the User range and from the Dynamic
> > > range. I hope to finish it in a couple days. Will share on this
> > > discussion thread promptly.=20
> >=20
> > Great!
> >=20
> > Looking forward to review it when written.=20
> >=20
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > ----
> > > > > > -----
> > > > > > COMMENT:
> > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > ----
> > > > > > -----
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > >         1. Section 4:
> > > > > >         Before using numbers from the User Ports range, the
> > > > > > possible impact
> > > > > >    on the network MUST be carefully studied and agreed by all
> > > > users
> > > > > > of
> > > > > >    the network.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > >         Is the above sentence missing to list an important
> > > > > > assumption? Is the
> > > > > >         assumption that by using the registred destination port
> > > > an
> > > > > > operator
> > > > > >         that sees to much STAMP traffic can simply filter it
> > > > out
> > > > > > and that way
> > > > > >         deal with the traffic, something which is not possible
> > > > when
> > > > > > using an
> > > > > >         locally decided port? If that is the case, this
> > > > assumption
> > > > > > should
> > > > > >         probably be noted.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > GIM>> That is a very good point but our primary motivation for
> > > > this
> > > > > cautionary note (or strong warning) was that by allowing STAMP to
> > > > use
> > > > > port numbers from the User range, ports that may be already
> > > > assigned
> > > > > to protocols, creates a DDOS attack vector. As for the filtering
> > > > > STAMP traffic out, I think that even if the destination port is
> > > > one
> > > > > from the Dynamic range, for a relatively long test session it can
> > > > be
> > > > > filtered out.
> > > >=20
> > > > So if that is the only? concern then write it out. I would expect
> > > > that
> > > > the higher layer management protocol that creates a measurement
> > > > session
> > > > to actually ensure that the STAMP endpoint actually have the port
> > > > numbers they attempt to use. Isn't that a reasonable requirement to
> > > > put
> > > > on the solution?=20
> > >=20
> > > GIM2>> Agree with your suggestion. Will put in the new section. If
> > > STAMP is managed by a centralized system, whether it is proprietary
> > > OSS/BSS or an orchestrator that uses YANG data models, the system
> > > will be able to coordinate selection of port numbers on the Session-
> > > Sender and Session-Reflector. But some systems may use EMS or CLI and
> > > that is where human coordination may be required.=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > Good, then likely this is resolved when your text is ready.=20
> >=20
> > > > My thinking with the filtering out concern was that in cases where
> > > > one
> > > > runs STAMP measurement sessions, if the measurement interfer with
> > > > critical traffic an action for an on-path node that can actually
> > > > identify the STAMP traffic was to filer it out. And that may be
> > > > considered trivial when the well known port is used, but if a user
> > > > or
> > > > dynamic port is used, then that requries a managment system to
> > > > provide
> > > > the on-path node with the necessary information, i.e. 3/5 tuple for
> > > > the
> > > > STAMP flows.=20
> > >=20
> > > GIM2>> I think that a transit node can identify a flow as the STAMP
> > > flow only if the destination port is the STAMP default UDP
> > > destination port number, 862. In case a STAMP session has the
> > > destination port number as one of port numbers from the User range,
> > > IP/UDP encapsulation of STAMP packets would be indistinguishable from
> > > packets originated by the application that is assigned that port
> > > number. Thus, filtering out on only destination port number may
> > > negatively affect service, legitimate service. Because of that, I
> > > think that filtering will have to use more information. On the other
> > > hand, if the test flow does not exceed agreed rate, then any
> > > filtering test packets out, in my opinion, is counter-productive, as
> > > it hides some issues in the networks rather than letting the OAM
> > > tools to expose them, localize, and characterize.
> >=20
> > Ok. This was primarily to understand if this was in scope or not. But
> > it sounds like this is not really in scope for how to manage it.=20
> >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > > >         2. Section 3 and 4, and 4.1.1: What is a STAMP Session?
> > > > Is
> > > > > > that a
> > > > > >         measurment session between one specific and sender and
> > > > a
> > > > > > specific
> > > > > >         reflector for a time duration?  The defenition of the
> > > > > > session do matter
> > > > > >         if one intended to enable a single sender to use
> > > > multiple
> > > > > > reflectors,
> > > > > >         and if that can be a single session or always multiple
> > > > > > indepdendent
> > > > > >         ones. Would appreciate a definition what a session is.
> > > > If
> > > > > > it is
> > > > > >         possible to send STAMP traffic using a multicast or
> > > > > > broadcast address
> > > > > >         should be made explicit.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > GIM>> Your interpretation is correct, STAMP session is implicitly
> > > > > defined as p2p. And that is what reflected in the STAMP YANG
> > > > model.
> > > > > Would the following text make it clearer:
> > > > > NEW TEXT:
> > > > >    In this document, a measurement session also referred to as
> > > > >    STAMP session, is the session between one specific Session-
> > > > Sender
> > > > > and
> > > > >    one particular Session-Reflector for a time duration.
> > > >=20
> > > > Yes, please include that definition. Question would it be clearer
> > > > to
> > > > replace ".. is the session betweeen .." with ".. is the bi-
> > > > directional
> > > > packet flows between .."?=20
> > >=20
> > > GIM2>> I agree, defining a session as a session makes is somewhat
> > > repetitive. Thank you.=20
> > > Below is the updated text:
> > >    In this document, a measurement session also referred to as
> > >    STAMP session, is the bi-directional packet flow between one
> > > specific
> > >    Session-Sender and one particular Session-Reflector for a time
> > >    duration.
> >=20
> > Looks good to me.=20
> >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > > >         3.  Section 4.1.1.:
> > > > > >         Timestamp is eight octets long field.  STAMP node MUST
> > > > > > support
> > > > > >       Network Time Protocol (NTP) version 4 64-bit timestamp
> > > > format
> > > > > >       [RFC5905], the format used in [RFC5357].  STAMP node MAY
> > > > > > support
> > > > > >       IEEE 1588v2 Precision Time Protocol truncated 64-bit
> > > > > > timestamp
> > > > > >       format [IEEE.1588.2008], the format used in [RFC8186].
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > >         Is the clock source here something that may be relevant
> > > > or
> > > > > > simply
> > > > > >         information the management functions should capture. I
> > > > > > think there is a
> > > > > >         similar issue to that of RTP faced when it comes to
> > > > > > understand what the
> > > > > >         timestamp actually represent and thus be used
> > > > correctly.
> > > > > > RTP clock
> > > > > >         source specification is RFC 7273
> > > > > >         (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7273/)
> > > > >=20
> > > > > GIM>> NTP and PTP encodings have a different interpretation of
> > > > the
> > > > > Fraction field of the Timestamp field. In my experience, PTP
> > > > format
> > > > > is native for the data plane, while NTP is more used at the
> > > > control
> > > > > plane. Original extension to TWAMP has been described in RFC
> > > > 8186.
> > > >=20
> > > > I think you missunderstood. When I talk about clock source, I am
> > > > actually referring to identifying the particular clock that the
> > > > node
> > > > use to derive the included timestamp from.=20
> > > >=20
> > > > And likely this is a moot point in this document where the clock
> > > > source
> > > > information belongs in the management layer, e.g. in the YANG data
> > > > model.=20
> > >=20
> > > GIM2>> Timestamp Information TLV (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv)
> > > provides information about the clock synchronization protocol and the
> > > method by wich the timestamp has been acquired at a Session-
> > > Reflector. We may extend it to list the name/locatior of the master
> > > clock.
> >=20
> > Ok. sounds reasonable.=20
> >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > > >         4. Section 4.1:
> > > > > >            Because STAMP supports symmetrical test packets,
> > > > STAMP
> > > > > > Session-Sender
> > > > > >    packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated
> > > > mode,
> > > > > > see
> > > > > >    Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see
> > > > Figure
> > > > > > 4.
> > > > > >=20
> > > > > >         The above text implies some potential for UDP payload
> > > > size
> > > > > > variability
> > > > > >         for the STAMP packets. However, the actual definition
> > > > > > appear to have
> > > > > >         fixed sizes. Can you please clarify if I have missed
> > > > > > something that
> > > > > >         enables the STAMP packet to have variable size?
> > > > >=20
> > > > > GIM>> I think that the text can be improved by characterizing the
> > > > > listed sizes as "base". The variable length of a test packet in
> > > > STAMP
> > > > > is supported by using Extra Padding TLV defined in draft-ietf-
> > > > ippm-
> > > > > stamp-option-tlv. Below is the proposed update:
> > > > > OLD TEXT:
> > > > >    Because STAMP supports symmetrical test packets, STAMP
> > > > Session-
> > > > > Sender
> > > > >    packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated
> > > > mode,
> > > > > see
> > > > >    Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see Figure
> > > > 4.
> > > > > NEW TEXT:
> > > > >    STAMP supports symmetrical test packets.  The base STAMP
> > > > Session-
> > > > >    Sender packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in
> > > > unauthenticated
> > > > >    mode, see Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode,
> > > > see
> > > > >    Figure 4.  The variable length of a test packet in STAMP is
> > > > > supported
> > > > >    by using Extra Padding TLV defined in
> > > > >    [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv].
> > > > >=20
> > > > > With the new reference, should I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv be
> > > > > moved to the Normative References list or may remain in the
> > > > > Informative list?
> > > >=20
> > > > From my perspective, the fact that optional TLV may occur following
> > > > the
> > > > base headers appears quite important. Here comes a question of
> > > > intention form the WG. Is it intended that one can have STAMP
> > > > endpoints
> > > > that do not even support receiving packets larger than the base?=
=20
> > > > In other words there will be two main versions already now, one
> > > > that
> > > > supports some TLV and can at least handle the TLV skip forward and
> > > > ignore the content and one that will throw a fit over the TLVs? If
> > > > that
> > > > is not the intention I think the fact that TLV's may occur should
> > > > be
> > > > moved into this specification and have it as a normative reference.
> > >=20
> > > GIM2>> Will move the reference to the Normative section. With TLV
> > > being normative, I'd expect that the intelligent implementation of
> > > this draft, of the base STAMP specification, will accept any valid
> > > STAMP packet though not process extensions. But the base STAMP
> > > Session-Reflector will return the base reflected packet. =20
> >=20
> > I think that is very reasonable approach. Are you close to complete the
> > stamp-option-tlv document, or will the missref cause any issue?=20
> >=20
> > > > I guess the answer is that you have backwards comaptibility reasons
> > > > for
> > > > not allowing TLVs at all in some sessions, or?=20
> > >=20
> > > GIM2>> Yes, that and the principle "keep it simple".=20
> >=20
> > Thanks,
> >=20
> > To me it looks like with some text changes all my issues are addressed.
> >=20
> > Cheers
> >=20
> > Magnus Westerlund=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287
> > Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079
> > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >=20
> >=20
--=20
Cheers

Magnus Westerlund=20


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287
Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------



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From nobody Thu Sep 26 08:00:59 2019
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Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options-00.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF.

        Title           : In-situ OAM IPv6 Options
        Authors         : Shwetha Bhandari
                          Frank Brockners
                          Carlos Pignataro
                          Hannes Gredler
                          John Leddy
                          Stephen Youell
                          Tal Mizrahi
                          Aviv Kfir
                          Barak Gafni
                          Petr Lapukhov
                          Mickey Spiegel
                          Suresh Krishnan
                          Rajiv Asati
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options-00.txt
	Pages           : 9
	Date            : 2019-09-26

Abstract:
   In-situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (IOAM) records
   operational and telemetry information in the packet while the packet
   traverses a path between two points in the network.  This document
   outlines how IOAM data fields are encapsulated in IPv6.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options-00
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options-00


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 08:08:10 -0700
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To: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Magnus Westerlund's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Magnus,
thank you for all your comments, discussion, and patience.

Kind regards,
Greg

On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 1:41 AM Magnus Westerlund <
magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Hi Greg,
>
> This clarifies it sufficiently. I have cleared my discuss.
>
> Thanks
>
> Magnus
>
> On Tue, 2019-09-24 at 13:39 -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> > Hi Magnus,
> > a new section, Operational Considerations, has been added to address
> Barry's
> > DISCUSS:
> >
> > 5.  Operational Considerations
> >
> >    STAMP is intended to be used on production networks to enable the
> >    operator to assess service level agreements based on packet delay,
> >    delay variation, and loss.  When using STAMP over the Internet,
> >    especially when STAMP test packets are transmitted with the
> >    destination UDP port number from the User Ports range, the possible
> >    impact of the STAMP test packets MUST be thoroughly analyzed.  The
> >    use of STAMP for each case MUST be agreed by users of nodes hosting
> >    the Session-Sender and Session-Reflector before starting the STAMP
> >    test session.
> >
> >    Also, the use of the well-known port number as the destination UDP
> >    port number in STAMP test packets transmitted by a Session-Sender
> >    would not impede the ability to measure performance in an Equal Cost
> >    Multipath environment and analysis in Section 5.3 [RFC8545] fully
> >    applies to STAMP.
> >
> > Would it address your concern?
> >
> > The new version of the draft has been published. It includes all the
> updates
> > we've discussed.
> >
> > Much appreciate your consideration of the new version, comments, and
> > questions.
> >
> > Kind regards,
> > Greg
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 8:29 AM Magnus Westerlund <
> > magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > > On Wed, 2019-09-11 at 11:33 -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> > > > Hi Magnus,
> > > > thank you for clarifications and further detailing your comments,
> > > > questions. Please find my answers and notes below in-lined under the
> > > > GIM2>> tag.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Greg
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 12:53 AM Magnus Westerlund <
> > > > magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > > > > Hi Greg,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the reply. See inline for my comments and response.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, 2019-09-10 at 12:43 -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:
> > > > > > Hi Magnus,
> > > > > > thank you for the review and thoughtful, pointed questions.
> > > > > Please
> > > > > > find my answers in-line under GIM>> tag.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > Greg
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 3:54 PM Magnus Westerlund via Datatracker
> > > > > <
> > > > > > noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > Magnus Westerlund has entered the following ballot position for
> > > > > > > draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > all
> > > > > > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to
> > > > > cut
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > introductory paragraph, however.)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Please refer to
> > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> > > > > > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found
> > > > > here:
> > > > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > ----
> > > > > > > -----
> > > > > > > DISCUSS:
> > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > ----
> > > > > > > -----
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Two very much discussing discusses. However, I would really
> > > > > like to
> > > > > > > hear the
> > > > > > > answer to these concerns before clearing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1. Section 4.3: Is the HMAC field size of 16 bytes hard coded?
> > > > > If
> > > > > > > there ever
> > > > > > > would exist a need to deploy another integrity solution, even
> > > > > if
> > > > > > > the actual
> > > > > > > algorithm used to construct the tag can be agreed by the
> > > > > > > management, there
> > > > > > > appear to exist a hard look in to use 16-byte tags. Have this
> > > > > issue
> > > > > > > been
> > > > > > > considered?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > GIM>> Indeed, this specification defines the use of only one
> > > > > > algorithm and only 16 bytes-long HMAC field. Your question
> > > > > prompted
> > > > > > the discussion among authors and we believe that in a future
> > > > > > specification it would be feasible to extend supporting a number
> > > > > of
> > > > > > algorithms and different lengths of HMAC field both being defined
> > > > > > through extension to STAMP YANG data model.
> > > > >
> > > > > So if I understand this (taking a discussion with Mirja about
> > > > > keeping
> > > > > things as simple as possible) the solution is to basically is when
> > > > > need
> > > > > arises define a new STAMP version, and then use YANG to coordinate
> > > > > which version is used for the measurement. If that is a correct re-
> > > > > interpretation of your response then I am fine with it.
> > > >
> > > > GIM2>> The direction from the WG was to keep the base specification
> > > > as simple  as possible (and that was the reason to split TLV
> > > > extensions into a separate document).
> > >
> > > Yes, understood.
> > >
> > > > > > >         2. Section 6:
> > > > > > >         The possible impact of the
> > > > > > >    STAMP test packets on the network MUST be thoroughly
> > > > > analyzed,
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > >    the use of STAMP for each case MUST be agreed by all users
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > >    network before starting the STAMP test session.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >         I assume some potential issues are know, shouldn't they
> > > > > > > really be
> > > > > > >         listed here in the security consideration to further
> > > > > > > motivate why the
> > > > > > >         analysis needs to happen.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > GIM>> This is in reference to using numbers from the User range
> > > > > as
> > > > > > the destination port number. Would adding the reference to the
> > > > > case
> > > > > > of using the port numbers from the User range address your
> > > > > concern?
> > > > > > Or rather refer to Section 4, as it includes more discussion
> > > > > (see
> > > > > > below)?
> > > > >
> > > > > Okay, I don't really care where the discussion happens. But I don't
> > > > > find any real discussion and listing of the concerns with using
> > > > > user or
> > > > > dynamic ports for STAMP Sessions? With the formulation you use, I
> > > > > would
> > > > > expect at least some list of potential concerns that needs to be
> > > > > evaluated in the context of the particular usage of STAMP.
> > > >
> > > > GIM2>> Per Berry's suggestion, I'm adding a new section, Operational
> > > > Considerations, to list possible scenarios and possible issues with
> > > > using destination ports from the User range and from the Dynamic
> > > > range. I hope to finish it in a couple days. Will share on this
> > > > discussion thread promptly.
> > >
> > > Great!
> > >
> > > Looking forward to review it when written.
> > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > ----
> > > > > > > -----
> > > > > > > COMMENT:
> > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > ----
> > > > > > > -----
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >         1. Section 4:
> > > > > > >         Before using numbers from the User Ports range, the
> > > > > > > possible impact
> > > > > > >    on the network MUST be carefully studied and agreed by all
> > > > > users
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > >    the network.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >         Is the above sentence missing to list an important
> > > > > > > assumption? Is the
> > > > > > >         assumption that by using the registred destination port
> > > > > an
> > > > > > > operator
> > > > > > >         that sees to much STAMP traffic can simply filter it
> > > > > out
> > > > > > > and that way
> > > > > > >         deal with the traffic, something which is not possible
> > > > > when
> > > > > > > using an
> > > > > > >         locally decided port? If that is the case, this
> > > > > assumption
> > > > > > > should
> > > > > > >         probably be noted.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > GIM>> That is a very good point but our primary motivation for
> > > > > this
> > > > > > cautionary note (or strong warning) was that by allowing STAMP to
> > > > > use
> > > > > > port numbers from the User range, ports that may be already
> > > > > assigned
> > > > > > to protocols, creates a DDOS attack vector. As for the filtering
> > > > > > STAMP traffic out, I think that even if the destination port is
> > > > > one
> > > > > > from the Dynamic range, for a relatively long test session it can
> > > > > be
> > > > > > filtered out.
> > > > >
> > > > > So if that is the only? concern then write it out. I would expect
> > > > > that
> > > > > the higher layer management protocol that creates a measurement
> > > > > session
> > > > > to actually ensure that the STAMP endpoint actually have the port
> > > > > numbers they attempt to use. Isn't that a reasonable requirement to
> > > > > put
> > > > > on the solution?
> > > >
> > > > GIM2>> Agree with your suggestion. Will put in the new section. If
> > > > STAMP is managed by a centralized system, whether it is proprietary
> > > > OSS/BSS or an orchestrator that uses YANG data models, the system
> > > > will be able to coordinate selection of port numbers on the Session-
> > > > Sender and Session-Reflector. But some systems may use EMS or CLI and
> > > > that is where human coordination may be required.
> > >
> > >
> > > Good, then likely this is resolved when your text is ready.
> > >
> > > > > My thinking with the filtering out concern was that in cases where
> > > > > one
> > > > > runs STAMP measurement sessions, if the measurement interfer with
> > > > > critical traffic an action for an on-path node that can actually
> > > > > identify the STAMP traffic was to filer it out. And that may be
> > > > > considered trivial when the well known port is used, but if a user
> > > > > or
> > > > > dynamic port is used, then that requries a managment system to
> > > > > provide
> > > > > the on-path node with the necessary information, i.e. 3/5 tuple for
> > > > > the
> > > > > STAMP flows.
> > > >
> > > > GIM2>> I think that a transit node can identify a flow as the STAMP
> > > > flow only if the destination port is the STAMP default UDP
> > > > destination port number, 862. In case a STAMP session has the
> > > > destination port number as one of port numbers from the User range,
> > > > IP/UDP encapsulation of STAMP packets would be indistinguishable from
> > > > packets originated by the application that is assigned that port
> > > > number. Thus, filtering out on only destination port number may
> > > > negatively affect service, legitimate service. Because of that, I
> > > > think that filtering will have to use more information. On the other
> > > > hand, if the test flow does not exceed agreed rate, then any
> > > > filtering test packets out, in my opinion, is counter-productive, as
> > > > it hides some issues in the networks rather than letting the OAM
> > > > tools to expose them, localize, and characterize.
> > >
> > > Ok. This was primarily to understand if this was in scope or not. But
> > > it sounds like this is not really in scope for how to manage it.
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >         2. Section 3 and 4, and 4.1.1: What is a STAMP Session?
> > > > > Is
> > > > > > > that a
> > > > > > >         measurment session between one specific and sender and
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > specific
> > > > > > >         reflector for a time duration?  The defenition of the
> > > > > > > session do matter
> > > > > > >         if one intended to enable a single sender to use
> > > > > multiple
> > > > > > > reflectors,
> > > > > > >         and if that can be a single session or always multiple
> > > > > > > indepdendent
> > > > > > >         ones. Would appreciate a definition what a session is.
> > > > > If
> > > > > > > it is
> > > > > > >         possible to send STAMP traffic using a multicast or
> > > > > > > broadcast address
> > > > > > >         should be made explicit.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > GIM>> Your interpretation is correct, STAMP session is implicitly
> > > > > > defined as p2p. And that is what reflected in the STAMP YANG
> > > > > model.
> > > > > > Would the following text make it clearer:
> > > > > > NEW TEXT:
> > > > > >    In this document, a measurement session also referred to as
> > > > > >    STAMP session, is the session between one specific Session-
> > > > > Sender
> > > > > > and
> > > > > >    one particular Session-Reflector for a time duration.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, please include that definition. Question would it be clearer
> > > > > to
> > > > > replace ".. is the session betweeen .." with ".. is the bi-
> > > > > directional
> > > > > packet flows between .."?
> > > >
> > > > GIM2>> I agree, defining a session as a session makes is somewhat
> > > > repetitive. Thank you.
> > > > Below is the updated text:
> > > >    In this document, a measurement session also referred to as
> > > >    STAMP session, is the bi-directional packet flow between one
> > > > specific
> > > >    Session-Sender and one particular Session-Reflector for a time
> > > >    duration.
> > >
> > > Looks good to me.
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >         3.  Section 4.1.1.:
> > > > > > >         Timestamp is eight octets long field.  STAMP node MUST
> > > > > > > support
> > > > > > >       Network Time Protocol (NTP) version 4 64-bit timestamp
> > > > > format
> > > > > > >       [RFC5905], the format used in [RFC5357].  STAMP node MAY
> > > > > > > support
> > > > > > >       IEEE 1588v2 Precision Time Protocol truncated 64-bit
> > > > > > > timestamp
> > > > > > >       format [IEEE.1588.2008], the format used in [RFC8186].
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >         Is the clock source here something that may be relevant
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > simply
> > > > > > >         information the management functions should capture. I
> > > > > > > think there is a
> > > > > > >         similar issue to that of RTP faced when it comes to
> > > > > > > understand what the
> > > > > > >         timestamp actually represent and thus be used
> > > > > correctly.
> > > > > > > RTP clock
> > > > > > >         source specification is RFC 7273
> > > > > > >         (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7273/)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > GIM>> NTP and PTP encodings have a different interpretation of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > Fraction field of the Timestamp field. In my experience, PTP
> > > > > format
> > > > > > is native for the data plane, while NTP is more used at the
> > > > > control
> > > > > > plane. Original extension to TWAMP has been described in RFC
> > > > > 8186.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think you missunderstood. When I talk about clock source, I am
> > > > > actually referring to identifying the particular clock that the
> > > > > node
> > > > > use to derive the included timestamp from.
> > > > >
> > > > > And likely this is a moot point in this document where the clock
> > > > > source
> > > > > information belongs in the management layer, e.g. in the YANG data
> > > > > model.
> > > >
> > > > GIM2>> Timestamp Information TLV (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv)
> > > > provides information about the clock synchronization protocol and the
> > > > method by wich the timestamp has been acquired at a Session-
> > > > Reflector. We may extend it to list the name/locatior of the master
> > > > clock.
> > >
> > > Ok. sounds reasonable.
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >         4. Section 4.1:
> > > > > > >            Because STAMP supports symmetrical test packets,
> > > > > STAMP
> > > > > > > Session-Sender
> > > > > > >    packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated
> > > > > mode,
> > > > > > > see
> > > > > > >    Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see
> > > > > Figure
> > > > > > > 4.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >         The above text implies some potential for UDP payload
> > > > > size
> > > > > > > variability
> > > > > > >         for the STAMP packets. However, the actual definition
> > > > > > > appear to have
> > > > > > >         fixed sizes. Can you please clarify if I have missed
> > > > > > > something that
> > > > > > >         enables the STAMP packet to have variable size?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > GIM>> I think that the text can be improved by characterizing the
> > > > > > listed sizes as "base". The variable length of a test packet in
> > > > > STAMP
> > > > > > is supported by using Extra Padding TLV defined in draft-ietf-
> > > > > ippm-
> > > > > > stamp-option-tlv. Below is the proposed update:
> > > > > > OLD TEXT:
> > > > > >    Because STAMP supports symmetrical test packets, STAMP
> > > > > Session-
> > > > > > Sender
> > > > > >    packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in unauthenticated
> > > > > mode,
> > > > > > see
> > > > > >    Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode, see Figure
> > > > > 4.
> > > > > > NEW TEXT:
> > > > > >    STAMP supports symmetrical test packets.  The base STAMP
> > > > > Session-
> > > > > >    Sender packet has a minimum size of 44 octets in
> > > > > unauthenticated
> > > > > >    mode, see Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authenticated mode,
> > > > > see
> > > > > >    Figure 4.  The variable length of a test packet in STAMP is
> > > > > > supported
> > > > > >    by using Extra Padding TLV defined in
> > > > > >    [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv].
> > > > > >
> > > > > > With the new reference, should I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv be
> > > > > > moved to the Normative References list or may remain in the
> > > > > > Informative list?
> > > > >
> > > > > From my perspective, the fact that optional TLV may occur following
> > > > > the
> > > > > base headers appears quite important. Here comes a question of
> > > > > intention form the WG. Is it intended that one can have STAMP
> > > > > endpoints
> > > > > that do not even support receiving packets larger than the base?
> > > > > In other words there will be two main versions already now, one
> > > > > that
> > > > > supports some TLV and can at least handle the TLV skip forward and
> > > > > ignore the content and one that will throw a fit over the TLVs? If
> > > > > that
> > > > > is not the intention I think the fact that TLV's may occur should
> > > > > be
> > > > > moved into this specification and have it as a normative reference.
> > > >
> > > > GIM2>> Will move the reference to the Normative section. With TLV
> > > > being normative, I'd expect that the intelligent implementation of
> > > > this draft, of the base STAMP specification, will accept any valid
> > > > STAMP packet though not process extensions. But the base STAMP
> > > > Session-Reflector will return the base reflected packet.
> > >
> > > I think that is very reasonable approach. Are you close to complete the
> > > stamp-option-tlv document, or will the missref cause any issue?
> > >
> > > > > I guess the answer is that you have backwards comaptibility reasons
> > > > > for
> > > > > not allowing TLVs at all in some sessions, or?
> > > >
> > > > GIM2>> Yes, that and the principle "keep it simple".
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > To me it looks like with some text changes all my issues are addressed.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Magnus Westerlund
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287
> > > Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079
> > > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> --
> Cheers
>
> Magnus Westerlund
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ericsson AB                 | Phone  +46 10 7148287
> Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile +46 73 0949079
> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Magnus,<div>thank you for all your comments, discussion=
, and patience.</div><div><br></div><div>Kind regards,</div><div>Greg</div>=
</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">=
On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 1:41 AM Magnus Westerlund &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mag=
nus.westerlund@ericsson.com">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Greg,<br>
<br>
This clarifies it sufficiently. I have cleared my discuss. <br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
Magnus<br>
<br>
On Tue, 2019-09-24 at 13:39 -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi Magnus,<br>
&gt; a new section, Operational Considerations, has been added to address B=
arry&#39;s<br>
&gt; DISCUSS:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; 5.=C2=A0 Operational Considerations<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 STAMP is intended to be used on production networks to en=
able the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 operator to assess service level agreements based on pack=
et delay,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 delay variation, and loss.=C2=A0 When using STAMP over th=
e Internet,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 especially when STAMP test packets are transmitted with t=
he<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 destination UDP port number from the User Ports range, th=
e possible<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 impact of the STAMP test packets MUST be thoroughly analy=
zed.=C2=A0 The<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 use of STAMP for each case MUST be agreed by users of nod=
es hosting<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the Session-Sender and Session-Reflector before starting =
the STAMP<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 test session.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Also, the use of the well-known port number as the destin=
ation UDP<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 port number in STAMP test packets transmitted by a Sessio=
n-Sender<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 would not impede the ability to measure performance in an=
 Equal Cost<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Multipath environment and analysis in Section 5.3 [RFC854=
5] fully<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 applies to STAMP.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Would it address your concern?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The new version of the draft has been published. It includes all the u=
pdates<br>
&gt; we&#39;ve discussed.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Much appreciate your consideration of the new version, comments, and<b=
r>
&gt; questions.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Kind regards,<br>
&gt; Greg<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 8:29 AM Magnus Westerlund &lt;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">ma=
gnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; On Wed, 2019-09-11 at 11:33 -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Hi Magnus,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; thank you for clarifications and further detailing your comm=
ents,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; questions. Please find my answers and notes below in-lined u=
nder the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; GIM2&gt;&gt; tag.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Greg<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 12:53 AM Magnus Westerlund &lt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com" target=3D"=
_blank">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Hi Greg,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Thanks for the reply. See inline for my comments and re=
sponse. <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Tue, 2019-09-10 at 12:43 -0700, Greg Mirsky wrote:<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Hi Magnus,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; thank you for the review and thoughtful, pointed q=
uestions.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Please<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; find my answers in-line under GIM&gt;&gt; tag.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Greg<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 3:54 PM Magnus Westerlund v=
ia Datatracker<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &lt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Magnus Westerlund has entered the following b=
allot position for<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07: Discuss<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; When responding, please keep the subject line=
 intact and reply<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; all<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; email addresses included in the To and CC lin=
es. (Feel free to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; cut<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; this<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; introductory paragraph, however.)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Please refer to <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statemen=
t/discuss-criteria.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.i=
etf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; for more information about IESG DISCUSS and C=
OMMENT positions.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; The document, along with other ballot positio=
ns, can be found<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; here:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/d=
raft-ietf-ippm-stamp/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatra=
cker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp/</a><br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; ---------------------------------------------=
----------------<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; ----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; -----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; DISCUSS:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; ---------------------------------------------=
----------------<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; ----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; -----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Two very much discussing discusses. However, =
I would really<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; like to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; hear the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; answer to these concerns before clearing.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 1. Section 4.3: Is the HMAC field size of 16 =
bytes hard coded?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; If<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; there ever<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; would exist a need to deploy another integrit=
y solution, even<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; if<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the actual<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; algorithm used to construct the tag can be ag=
reed by the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; management, there<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; appear to exist a hard look in to use 16-byte=
 tags. Have this<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; issue<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; been<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; considered?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; Indeed, this specification defines the=
 use of only one<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; algorithm and only 16 bytes-long HMAC field. Your =
question<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; prompted<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the discussion among authors and we believe that i=
n a future<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; specification it would be feasible to extend suppo=
rting a number<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; of<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; algorithms and different lengths of HMAC field bot=
h being defined<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; through extension to STAMP YANG data model.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So if I understand this (taking a discussion with Mirja=
 about<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; keeping<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; things as simple as possible) the solution is to basica=
lly is when<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; need<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; arises define a new STAMP version, and then use YANG to=
 coordinate<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; which version is used for the measurement. If that is a=
 correct re-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; interpretation of your response then I am fine with it.=
 <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; GIM2&gt;&gt; The direction from the WG was to keep the base =
specification<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; as simple=C2=A0 as possible (and that was the reason to spli=
t TLV<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; extensions into a separate document). <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Yes, understood. <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02. Section 6=
:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The possible=
 impact of the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 STAMP test packets on the networ=
k MUST be thoroughly<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; analyzed,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; and<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the use of STAMP for each case M=
UST be agreed by all users<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; on<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 network before starting the STAM=
P test session.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I assume som=
e potential issues are know, shouldn&#39;t they<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; really be<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0listed here =
in the security consideration to further<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; motivate why the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0analysis nee=
ds to happen.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; This is in reference to using numbers =
from the User range<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; as<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the destination port number. Would adding the refe=
rence to the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; case<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; of using the port numbers from the User range addr=
ess your<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; concern?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Or rather refer to Section 4, as it includes more =
discussion<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; (see <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; below)? <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Okay, I don&#39;t really care where the discussion happ=
ens. But I don&#39;t<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; find any real discussion and listing of the concerns wi=
th using<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; user or<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; dynamic ports for STAMP Sessions? With the formulation =
you use, I<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; would<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; expect at least some list of potential concerns that ne=
eds to be<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; evaluated in the context of the particular usage of STA=
MP. <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; GIM2&gt;&gt; Per Berry&#39;s suggestion, I&#39;m adding a ne=
w section, Operational<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Considerations, to list possible scenarios and possible issu=
es with<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; using destination ports from the User range and from the Dyn=
amic<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; range. I hope to finish it in a couple days. Will share on t=
his<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; discussion thread promptly. <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Great!<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Looking forward to review it when written. <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; ---------------------------------------------=
----------------<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; ----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; -----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; COMMENT:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; ---------------------------------------------=
----------------<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; ----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; -----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01. Section 4=
:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Before using=
 numbers from the User Ports range, the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; possible impact<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 on the network MUST be carefully=
 studied and agreed by all<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; users<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; of<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the network.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Is the above=
 sentence missing to list an important<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; assumption? Is the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0assumption t=
hat by using the registred destination port<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; an<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; operator<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that sees to=
 much STAMP traffic can simply filter it<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; out<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; and that way<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0deal with th=
e traffic, something which is not possible<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; when<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; using an<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0locally deci=
ded port? If that is the case, this<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; assumption<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; should<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0probably be =
noted.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; That is a very good point but our prim=
ary motivation for<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; this<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; cautionary note (or strong warning) was that by al=
lowing STAMP to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; use<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; port numbers from the User range, ports that may b=
e already<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; assigned<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to protocols, creates a DDOS attack vector. As for=
 the filtering<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; STAMP traffic out, I think that even if the destin=
ation port is<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; one<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; from the Dynamic range, for a relatively long test=
 session it can<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; be<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; filtered out.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; So if that is the only? concern then write it out. I wo=
uld expect<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; that<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the higher layer management protocol that creates a mea=
surement<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; session<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to actually ensure that the STAMP endpoint actually hav=
e the port<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; numbers they attempt to use. Isn&#39;t that a reasonabl=
e requirement to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; put<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; on the solution? <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; GIM2&gt;&gt; Agree with your suggestion. Will put in the new=
 section. If<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; STAMP is managed by a centralized system, whether it is prop=
rietary<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; OSS/BSS or an orchestrator that uses YANG data models, the s=
ystem<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; will be able to coordinate selection of port numbers on the =
Session-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Sender and Session-Reflector. But some systems may use EMS o=
r CLI and<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; that is where human coordination may be required. <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Good, then likely this is resolved when your text is ready. <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; My thinking with the filtering out concern was that in =
cases where<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; one<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; runs STAMP measurement sessions, if the measurement int=
erfer with<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; critical traffic an action for an on-path node that can=
 actually<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; identify the STAMP traffic was to filer it out. And tha=
t may be<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; considered trivial when the well known port is used, bu=
t if a user<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; or<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; dynamic port is used, then that requries a managment sy=
stem to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; provide<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the on-path node with the necessary information, i.e. 3=
/5 tuple for<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; STAMP flows. <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; GIM2&gt;&gt; I think that a transit node can identify a flow=
 as the STAMP<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; flow only if the destination port is the STAMP default UDP<b=
r>
&gt; &gt; &gt; destination port number, 862. In case a STAMP session has th=
e<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; destination port number as one of port numbers from the User=
 range,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; IP/UDP encapsulation of STAMP packets would be indistinguish=
able from<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; packets originated by the application that is assigned that =
port<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; number. Thus, filtering out on only destination port number =
may<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; negatively affect service, legitimate service. Because of th=
at, I<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; think that filtering will have to use more information. On t=
he other<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; hand, if the test flow does not exceed agreed rate, then any=
<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; filtering test packets out, in my opinion, is counter-produc=
tive, as<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; it hides some issues in the networks rather than letting the=
 OAM<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; tools to expose them, localize, and characterize.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Ok. This was primarily to understand if this was in scope or not.=
 But<br>
&gt; &gt; it sounds like this is not really in scope for how to manage it. =
<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02. Section 3=
 and 4, and 4.1.1: What is a STAMP Session?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Is<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; that a<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0measurment s=
ession between one specific and sender and<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; a<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; specific<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reflector fo=
r a time duration?=C2=A0 The defenition of the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; session do matter<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0if one inten=
ded to enable a single sender to use<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; multiple<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; reflectors,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and if that =
can be a single session or always multiple<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; indepdendent<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ones. Would =
appreciate a definition what a session is.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; If<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; it is<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0possible to =
send STAMP traffic using a multicast or<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; broadcast address<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should be ma=
de explicit.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; Your interpretation is correct, STAMP =
session is implicitly<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; defined as p2p. And that is what reflected in the =
STAMP YANG<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; model.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Would the following text make it clearer:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; NEW TEXT:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In this document, a measurement sessi=
on also referred to as<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 STAMP session, is the session between=
 one specific Session-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Sender<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; and<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 one particular Session-Reflector for =
a time duration.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Yes, please include that definition. Question would it =
be clearer<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; replace &quot;.. is the session betweeen ..&quot; with =
&quot;.. is the bi-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; directional<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; packet flows between ..&quot;? <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; GIM2&gt;&gt; I agree, defining a session as a session makes =
is somewhat<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; repetitive. Thank you. <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Below is the updated text:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In this document, a measurement session also re=
ferred to as<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 STAMP session, is the bi-directional packet flo=
w between one<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; specific<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Session-Sender and one particular Session-Refle=
ctor for a time<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 duration.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Looks good to me. <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03.=C2=A0 Sec=
tion <a href=3D"http://4.1.1." rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">4.1.1.<=
/a>:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Timestamp is=
 eight octets long field.=C2=A0 STAMP node MUST<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; support<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Network Time Protoc=
ol (NTP) version 4 64-bit timestamp<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; format<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC5905], the form=
at used in [RFC5357].=C2=A0 STAMP node MAY<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; support<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IEEE 1588v2 Precisi=
on Time Protocol truncated 64-bit<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; timestamp<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0format [IEEE.1588.2=
008], the format used in [RFC8186].<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Is the clock=
 source here something that may be relevant<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; or<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; simply<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0information =
the management functions should capture. I<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; think there is a<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0similar issu=
e to that of RTP faced when it comes to<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; understand what the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0timestamp ac=
tually represent and thus be used<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; correctly.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; RTP clock<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0source speci=
fication is RFC 7273<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(<a href=3D"=
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7273/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc7273/</a>)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; NTP and PTP encodings have a different=
 interpretation of<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Fraction field of the Timestamp field. In my exper=
ience, PTP<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; format<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; is native for the data plane, while NTP is more us=
ed at the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; control<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; plane. Original extension to TWAMP has been descri=
bed in RFC<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 8186.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I think you missunderstood. When I talk about clock sou=
rce, I am<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; actually referring to identifying the particular clock =
that the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; node<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; use to derive the included timestamp from. <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; And likely this is a moot point in this document where =
the clock<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; source<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; information belongs in the management layer, e.g. in th=
e YANG data<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; model. <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; GIM2&gt;&gt; Timestamp Information TLV (draft-ietf-ippm-stam=
p-option-tlv)<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; provides information about the clock synchronization protoco=
l and the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; method by wich the timestamp has been acquired at a Session-=
<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Reflector. We may extend it to list the name/locatior of the=
 master<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; clock.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Ok. sounds reasonable. <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04. Section 4=
.1:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Beca=
use STAMP supports symmetrical test packets,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; STAMP<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Session-Sender<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 packet has a minimum size of 44 =
octets in unauthenticated<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; mode,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; see<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Figure 2, and 112 octets in the =
authenticated mode, see<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Figure<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 4.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The above te=
xt implies some potential for UDP payload<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; size<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; variability<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for the STAM=
P packets. However, the actual definition<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; appear to have<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0fixed sizes.=
 Can you please clarify if I have missed<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; something that<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0enables the =
STAMP packet to have variable size?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; GIM&gt;&gt; I think that the text can be improved =
by characterizing the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; listed sizes as &quot;base&quot;. The variable len=
gth of a test packet in<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; STAMP<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; is supported by using Extra Padding TLV defined in=
 draft-ietf-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; ippm-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; stamp-option-tlv. Below is the proposed update:<br=
>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; OLD TEXT:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Because STAMP supports symmetrical te=
st packets, STAMP<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Session-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Sender<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 packet has a minimum size of 44 octet=
s in unauthenticated<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; mode,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; see<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Figure 2, and 112 octets in the authe=
nticated mode, see Figure<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; 4.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; NEW TEXT:<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 STAMP supports symmetrical test packe=
ts.=C2=A0 The base STAMP<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Session-<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sender packet has a minimum size of 4=
4 octets in<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; unauthenticated<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mode, see Figure 2, and 112 octets in=
 the authenticated mode,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; see<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Figure 4.=C2=A0 The variable length o=
f a test packet in STAMP is<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; supported<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 by using Extra Padding TLV defined in=
<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv].<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; With the new reference, should I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp=
-option-tlv be<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; moved to the Normative References list or may rema=
in in the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Informative list?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; From my perspective, the fact that optional TLV may occ=
ur following<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; base headers appears quite important. Here comes a ques=
tion of<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; intention form the WG. Is it intended that one can have=
 STAMP<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; endpoints<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; that do not even support receiving packets larger than =
the base? <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; In other words there will be two main versions already =
now, one<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; that<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; supports some TLV and can at least handle the TLV skip =
forward and<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; ignore the content and one that will throw a fit over t=
he TLVs? If<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; that<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; is not the intention I think the fact that TLV&#39;s ma=
y occur should<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; be<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; moved into this specification and have it as a normativ=
e reference.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; GIM2&gt;&gt; Will move the reference to the Normative sectio=
n. With TLV<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; being normative, I&#39;d expect that the intelligent impleme=
ntation of<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; this draft, of the base STAMP specification, will accept any=
 valid<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; STAMP packet though not process extensions. But the base STA=
MP<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Session-Reflector will return the base reflected packet.=C2=
=A0 <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; I think that is very reasonable approach. Are you close to comple=
te the<br>
&gt; &gt; stamp-option-tlv document, or will the missref cause any issue? <=
br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I guess the answer is that you have backwards comaptibi=
lity reasons<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; for<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; not allowing TLVs at all in some sessions, or? <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; GIM2&gt;&gt; Yes, that and the principle &quot;keep it simpl=
e&quot;. <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; To me it looks like with some text changes all my issues are addr=
essed.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Cheers<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Magnus Westerlund <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; -----------------------------------------------------------------=
-----<br>
&gt; &gt; Network Architecture &amp; Protocols, Ericsson Research<br>
&gt; &gt; -----------------------------------------------------------------=
-----<br>
&gt; &gt; Ericsson AB=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0| Phone=C2=A0 +46 10 7148287<br>
&gt; &gt; Torshamnsgatan 23=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Mobil=
e +46 73 0949079<br>
&gt; &gt; SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: <a href=3D"mailto:magnus.we=
sterlund@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a>=
<br>
&gt; &gt; -----------------------------------------------------------------=
-----<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
-- <br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
Magnus Westerlund <br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Network Architecture &amp; Protocols, Ericsson Research<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Ericsson AB=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| =
Phone=C2=A0 +46 10 7148287<br>
Torshamnsgatan 23=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Mobile +46 73 0=
949079<br>
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: <a href=3D"mailto:magnus.westerlund@e=
ricsson.com" target=3D"_blank">magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com</a><br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

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From: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" <acm@research.att.com>
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Thread-Topic: September Summary on Max IP-Layer Capacity Metric
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Subject: [ippm] September Summary on Max IP-Layer Capacity Metric
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IPPM List September Summary on Max IP-Layer Capacity Metric
(Re: [ippm] How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?)
currently draft-morton-ippm-capcity-metric-measurement-00

We've had a very good discussion of many important
aspects of IP layer Capacity Metric/Measurements, including:

+ Recognizing how an alt. flow control for TCP (BBR) uses a similar metric=
=20
+ Reporting the results under unusual circumstances
+ Bringing IPPM's documented experience and literature to the problem
+ Gaining experience from each-other's measurements/research
+ Suggestion of related work areas

It's useful to summarize many pages of discussion from time to
time: we can capture (what the summarizer thinks) we learned,=20
and new readers can join the discussion more easily.=20
With those goals in mind, a humble attempt to summarize follows.
Feel free to set me straight in a concise way, of course.

@@@@ is a flag for take-aways; items to address in the draft.

Matt Mathis engaged the "capcity" draft authors shortly=20
after IETF-105, and kindly agreed to foster wider review
on the ippm-list. There's a whole lot of *shaping* going on [0].
Matt's M-Lab measurements revealed a clear case of bi-modal
maximum rates (94 & 83 Mbps), consistent with a service feature=20
in the context of Shaping, and R=FCdiger shared his experiences=20
with fixed access shaper design.
@@@@ A clear take-away is that reporting must account for such a
bimodal feature, if/when measured.=20
@@@@ Also, that wide-spread measurements will encounter wide-spread
behaviors - testing should continue + expect some evolution.

Joachim and R=FCdiger discussed the situation further, confirming
how buffers play a big part in the assessment and performance.
When answering the reporting question, the measurement time interval
(long-term?, many different shapers and on-demand technology
may be encountered, as anticipated in RFC 7312) play a key role.
Joachim also provided two key points of reasoning for BTC (RFC 3148):
categorize the influencing factors and refine the 3148 definition.
The discussion covered LTE public networks with on-demand access=20
and shared resources.=20

@@@@ IMO, many of the above challenges fall on the measurement
methodology: allow for traffic & time to initiate an on-demand access.
@@@@ Also, results depend on the sending stream characteristics;
we've known this for a long time, still need to keep it front of mind.
@@@@ Max IP-Layer Capacity and RFC 3148 BTC (goodput) are different
metrics. Max IP-layer Capacity is like the theoretical goal for goodput.

@@@@ This is a big one: when the path we measure is state-full based on
many factors, the Parameter "Time of day" when a test starts is not=20
enough info. We need to know the time from the beginning of a=20
measured flow, and how the flow is constructed including how much=20
traffic has already been sent on that flow, because state-change
may be based on time or bytes sent or both. Re-read RFC 7312.

@@@@ The Singleton and Statistic formulations of IPPM's framework
RFC 2330 are still valuable in this context, possibly combined with
results criteria ("stable" for X singletons, non-arbitrary threshold
needed to define "stable").=20

R=FCdiger proposed a back-to-back stream for BTC characterization.
Joachim felt this b2b test might be a pre-requisite to measure a
BTC singleton.=20
[acm] it's a tricky test in production networks, see [1]

@@@@ Measurements depend on the access network and the use case.
Here, the use case is to assess the maximum capacity of the=20
access network, with specific performance criteria used in the=20
measurement.

Finally, an exchange between Ignacio and R=FCdiger brings us=20
back to first-principles: What are you trying to measure, and
what does it mean? What does it matter to demonstrate that=20
a portion of the network can reach a published value?
What capacity is available 100% of the time: you cannot=20
make measurements that saturate the network 100% of the time?=20
R=FCdiger responded that this effort has very specific goals,
to demonstrate that the performance promised is present when
requested to do so, consistent with the metric proposed.
There are *many* other metrics, such as available BW.
Ignacio had some measurement proposals for what may be a=20
different network performance metric (IMO).

@@@@ Goals made clearer in the next draft, if possible.

Well, that's a long summary, and we have identified many work
items for the draft. We also have more measurements (and=20
therefore, more useful experiences) coming.=20

Thanks to all who commented so far, very helpful stuff.
We look forward to additional discussion and suggestions! [2]

regards,=20
Al

[0] apologies to Jerry Lee Louis:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D1dC0Ds=
eCyYE

[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bmwg-b2b-frame-00

[2] It would be good to create threads on specific topics in future, but
Keep those cards and letters coming-in, folks!


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Thread-Topic: [ippm] How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
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Subject: Re: [ippm] How should capacity measurement interact with shaping?
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 17:17:08 -0700
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To: Dale Worley <worley@ariadne.com>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07
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Hi Dale,
thank you for your review, comments, and suggestions. Please find answers
and notes in-line under the GIM>> tag.
Attached, please find the diff between -07 and the current working version,
as well as, the working version of the draft.

Regards,
Greg

On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 6:01 PM Dale Worley via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
wrote:

>   ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area
> Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
> by the IESG for the IETF Chair.  Please treat these comments just
> like any other last call comments.
>
> For more information, please see the FAQ at
>
> <https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq>.
>
> Document:  draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07
> Reviewer:  Dale R. Worley
> Review Date:  2019-09-03
> IETF LC End Date:  2019-09-03
> IESG Telechat date:  2019-09-19
>
> Summary:
>
>        This draft is on the right track but has open issues, described
>        in the review.
>
> Minor technical issue:
>
> 4.4.  Interoperability with TWAMP Light
>
> The consequences of using a TWAMP Session-Sender with a STAMP
> Session-Reflector aren't adequately described.  I suspect that the WG
> understands the technical solution, but the text does not make that
> clear.
>
>    If the Server Octets field is present in the TWAMP
>    Session-Sender packet, STAMP Session-Reflector will not copy the
>    content starting from the Server Octets field but will transmit the
>    reflected packet of equal size.
>
> The final phrase appears to not be true.  In both unauthenticated and
> authenticated mode, the size of the reflected packet is fixed, and so
> in this case, it will not have equal size with the incoming packet.
> Also, there is no requirement that a STAMP Session-Reflector even
> accept incoming packets that are not of the standard length.
>
GIM>> Thank you for catching this issue. When the work on STAMP
specification started, this draft also included extensions, such as Extra
Padding TLV. Over the course of our work, all extensions were moved to the
separate draft. Would the following update (including the previous
paragraph in the section) address your concern:
OLD TEXT:
   In the latter scenario, if a TWAMP Light Session-Sender does not
   support the use of UDP port 862, the test management system MUST set
   STAMP Session-Reflector to use UDP port number as defined in
   Section 4.  If the TWAMP Light Session-Sender includes Packet Padding
   field in its transmitted packet, the STAMP Session-Reflector will
   return the reflected packet of the symmetrical size if the size of
   the received test packet is larger than the size of the STAMP base
   packet.  The Session-Reflector MUST be set to use the default format
   for its timestamps, NTP.

   STAMP does not support the Reflect Octets capability defined in
   [RFC6038].  If the Server Octets field is present in the TWAMP
   Session-Sender packet, STAMP Session-Reflector will not copy the
   content starting from the Server Octets field but will transmit the
   reflected packet of equal size.
NEW TEXT:
   In the latter scenario, if a TWAMP Light Session-Sender does not
   support the use of UDP port 862, the test management system MUST set
   STAMP Session-Reflector to use UDP port number as defined in
   Section 4.  The Session-Reflector MUST be set to use the default
   format for its timestamps, NTP.

   A STAMP Session-Reflector that supports this specification would
   transmit the base packet (Figure 5) regardless of the size of the
   Padding field in the packet received from TWAMP Session-Sender.
   Also, STAMP does not support the Reflect Octets capability defined in
   [RFC6038].  If the Server Octets field is present in the TWAMP
   Session-Sender packet, STAMP Session-Reflector will not copy the
   content starting from the Server Octets field and will transmit the
   reflected packet, as displayed in Figure 5.


> It seems that there is an unwritten requirement that a STAMP
> Session-Reflector accept longer packets than are expected for its
> configured operation mode and simply ignore the trailing excess
> octets.
>
> There are also some interactions with how the HMAC is verified for
> over-length incoming authenticated packets -- how does a STAMP
> Session-Reflector authenticate an incoming packet that is longer than
> the STAMP format?
>
GIM>> Authentication in TWAMP and STAMP use different algorithms
(HMAC-SHA-256 in STAMP vs. HMAC-SHA-1 in TWAMP as inherited from OWAMP
[RFC4656]), we don't have the requirement to provide interoperability in
Authenticated mode. Will update the first paragraph of the interoperability
section to explicitly state the scope:
OLD TEXT:
   One of the essential requirements to STAMP is the ability to
   interwork with a TWAMP Light device.
NEW TEXT:
   One of the essential requirements to STAMP is the ability to
   interwork with a TWAMP Light device.  Because STAMP and TWAMP use
   different algorithms in Authenticated mode (HMAC-SHA-256 vs. HMAC-
   SHA-1), interoperability is only considered for Unauthenticated mode.

>
> Editorial issues:
>
> 1.  Introduction
>
>    and inherit separation of control (vendor-specific configuration or
>    orchestration) and test functions.
>
> Is "inherit" intended to be "inherent"?
>
GIM>> Thank you. That was the intention. Done.

>
>    One of such is Performance
>    Measurement from IP Edge to Customer Equipment using TWAMP Light from
>    Broadband Forum [BBF.TR-390] used as the reference TWAMP Light that,
>    according to [RFC8545], includes sub-set of TWAMP-Test functions in
>    combination with other applications that provide, for example,
>    control and security.
>
> This sentence is awkward because of the length of the title in the
> middle of the sentence.  Perhaps
>
>    One of such is [BBF.TR-390] (Performance Measurement from IP Edge
>    to Customer Equipment using TWAMP Light from the Broadband Forum),
>    a the reference TWAMP Light, that includes a sub-set of TWAMP-Test
>    functions along with control and security functions.
>
GIM>> Thank you for the proposed text. While addressing other comments the
text has been transformed to the following:
CURRENT TEXT:
   Recent work on IP Edge to Customer Equipment using TWAMP Light from
   Broadband Forum [BBF.TR-390] demonstrated that interoperability among
   implementations of TWAMP Light is challenged because the composition
   and operation of TWAMP Light were not sufficiently specified in
   [RFC5357].  According to [RFC8545], TWAMP Light includes sub-set of
   TWAMP-Test functions to provide comprehensive solution requires
   support by other applications that provide, for example, control and
   security.
Hope the current version is clearer and more readable.

>
> --
>
>    This document defines an active performance measurement test protocol
>
> This sentence doesn't explicitly say that STAMP is connected to TWAMP,
> despite that the preceding sentence does explicitly say that
> BBF.TR-390 is connected to TWAMP.  Perhaps, "This document defines
> another such mechanism ..."  Perhaps also precede with a paragraph
> break for clarity.
>
GIM>> Introduction section now has three paragraphs and the last refers to
common extensions. Do you feel that the current version made the
relationship between TWAMP-Test and STAMP clearer:
CURRENT TEXT:
   This document defines an active performance measurement test
   protocol, Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol (STAMP), that
   enables measurement of both one-way and round-trip performance
   metrics like delay, delay variation, and packet loss.  Some TWAMP
   extensions, e.g., [RFC7750] are supported by the extensions to STAMP
   base specification in [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv].

>
> 2.1.  Terminology
>
>    AES Advanced Encryption Standard
>    CBC Cipher Block Chaining
>    ECB Electronic Cookbook
>    KEK Key-encryption Key
>
> These four terms are not used in the document.
>
GIM>> Thank you, removed.

>
> 3.  Softwarization of Performance Measurement
>
>    The configuration and management of the STAMP Session-
>    Sender, Session-Reflector, and management of the STAMP sessions can
>    be achieved through various means.
>
> You should probably revise to add "... sessions are outside the scope
> of this document and can be ...".
>
GIM>> Thank you for the suggested text. Agreed and added.

>
>    Command Line Interface, OSS/BSS
>    (operations support system/business support system as a combination
>    of two systems used to support a range of telecommunication services)
>    using SNMP or controllers in Software-Defined Networking using
>    Netconf/YANG are but a few examples.
>
> This sentence is long and awkward in a number of ways.  One version
> that I think is clearer is:
>
>     A few examples are:  Command Line Interface, telecommunication
>     services' OSS/BSS systems, SNMP, and Netconf/YANG-based SDN
>     controllers.
>
GIM>> Many thanks for the proposal. The text is denser and informative.


>
> 4.  Theory of Operation
>
> About half of the text in section 4 is about port assignments, but
> that isn't really part of the "Theory of Operation".  I think the
> exposition would be easier to read if the text about port assignments
> was extracted and put into a separate subsection (probably placed
> between 4 and 4.1).
>
GIM>> I've re-arranged Section 4. Please let me know if the flow of
information is clear and makes sense.

>
> 4.1.1.  Session-Sender Packet Format in Unauthenticated Mode
>
>    o  Sequence Number is four octets long field.  For each new session
>       its value starts at zero and is incremented with each transmitted
>       packet.
>
> There is no definition of what a STAMP session is in this document.
>
The idea is more or less obvious, but it would be useful to call out
> its primary properties in section 4 "Theory of Operation".  It seems
> like the primary properties are that a session is between one
> Session-Sender and one Session-Reflector and a session contains a
> potentially unlimited number of packets sent between the two.
>
GIM>> Magnus had similar comment and in course of our discussion we've
agreed on the following definition of a STAMP session, now part of Section
3:
   In this document, a measurement session also referred to as
   STAMP session, is the bi-directional packet flow between one specific
   Session-Sender and one particular Session-Reflector for a time
   duration.

>
>    o  Timestamp is eight octets long field.  STAMP node MUST support
>       Network Time Protocol (NTP) version 4 64-bit timestamp format
>       [RFC5905], the format used in [RFC5357].  STAMP node MAY support
>       IEEE 1588v2 Precision Time Protocol truncated 64-bit timestamp
>       format [IEEE.1588.2008], the format used in [RFC8186].
>
> The specification of how the time format for a particular packet is
> chosen is weak.  I think you want to add to the above paragraph that
> the choice of format is determined either by configuration or the Z
> bit in the Error Estimate field.
>
GIM>> In regard to the format of a timestamp, STAMP specification follows
the idea of RFC 8186 where extension to negotiate timestamp format for
TWAMP-Control and the new interpretation of Z flag were defined. For STAMP,
as defined for TWAMP, the value of the Z flag in the Error Estimate field
is only to reflect the format used by the node.

>
> 4.1.2.  Session-Sender Packet Format in Authenticated Mode
>
>    Also, MBZ fields are used to align the packet on 16 octets
>    boundary.
>
> You can't align the packet itself using a field within the packet.
> You want to say "are used to align the fields within the packet on 16
> octets boundaries."  Or perhaps "to make the packet length a multiple
> of 16 octets."  Similarly in 4.2.1 and 4.2.2.
>
GIM>> Thank you for the suggested text. I've used the second option.

>
> 4.2.  Session-Reflector Behavior and Packet Format
>
>    Two modes of STAMP Session-Reflector characterize the expected
>    behavior and, consequently, performance metrics that can be measured:
>
>    o  Stateless - STAMP Session-Reflector does not maintain test state
>       and will reflect the received sequence number without
>       modification.  As a result, only round-trip packet loss can be
>       calculated while the reflector is operating in stateless mode.
>
>    o  Stateful - STAMP Session-Reflector maintains test state thus
>       enabling the ability to determine forward loss, gaps recognized in
>       the received sequence number.  As a result, both near-end
>       (forward) and far-end (backward) packet loss can be computed.
>       That implies that the STAMP Session-Reflector MUST keep a state
>       for each accepted STAMP-test session, uniquely identifying STAMP-
>       test packets to one such session instance, and enabling adding a
>       sequence number in the test reply that is individually incremented
>       on a per-session basis.
>
> This seems important enough -- the mode determines what data STAMP
> can measure -- to be promoted to part of section 4, "Theory of
> Operation".
>
GIM>> I agree. Moved the text to Section 4 and re-named this section to
Session-Reflector Packet Format

>
> 4.3.  Integrity and Confidentiality Protection in STAMP
>
>    To provide integrity protection, each STAMP message is being
>    authenticated by adding Hashed Message Authentication Code (HMAC).
>
> Of course, this is only regarding authenticated mode.  So you want to
> phrase this "Authenticated mode provides integrity protection to each
> STAMP message by adding ...".
>
GIM>> Again, thank you for the suggestion.

>
> 4.4.  Interoperability with TWAMP Light
>
>    For example, a TWAMP Light
>    Session-Reflector may not support the use of UDP port 862 as defined
>    in [RFC8545].  Thus STAMP Session-Sender MAY use port numbers as
>    defined in Section 4.
>
> The connection between these two sentences is unclear.  I think it
> means:
>
>    For example, a TWAMP Light
>    Session-Reflector may not support the use of UDP port 862 as specified
>    in [RFC8545].  Thus Section 4 permits a STAMP Session-Sender to use
>    alternative ports.
>
GIM>> Great, thank you!

>
> --
>
>    The
>    Session-Sender SHOULD use the default format for its timestamps -
>    NTP.  And it MAY use PTPv2 timestamp format
>
> The first sentence could be made more specific.  But the second
> sentence seems to be redundant -- SHOULD is never mandatory, so you
> don't have to add a MAY.  So perhaps,
>
>    When interoperating with a TWAMP Light Session-Reflector, the
>    Session-Sender SHOULD use the default format for its timestamps -
>    NTP.
>
GIM>> We've reviewed these requirements and had agreed that they are not
needed. The STAMP Session-Sender is required to be able to interpret both
formats, NTP and PTP2, and the selection is local decision that has no
impact on the ability to interwork with TWAMP Light Session-Reflector.
Hence, these two sentences were removed.

>
> --
>
>    In the latter scenario, if a TWAMP Light Session-Sender does not
>    support the use of UDP port 862, the test management system MUST set
>    STAMP Session-Reflector to use UDP port number as defined in
>    Section 4.
>
> The phrase "to use UDP port number as defined in Section 4" isn't
> clear, since second 4 doesn't define what UDP port number should be
> used in this situation.  I think the meaning is "the test management
> system MUST set STAMP Session-Reflector to use an acceptable UDP port
> number, as permitted by Section 4".
>
GIM>> Thank you, accepted the text you've proposed.

>
> 6.  Security Considerations
>
>    STAMP test packets can be transmitted with the destination UDP port
>    number from the User Ports range, as defined in Section 4, that is
>    already or will be assigned by IANA.
>
> This sentence seems to be more part of the port-number discussion (see
> comments on section 4) than security considerations -- unless the
> usage of port numbers is a topic in security.
>
> Additionally, it appears that section 4 requires that a STAMP service
> can be configured to sent packets to any port within the User Ports
> range, regardless of whether IANA assigns a User Port specifically to
> STAMP.  With this consideration, the phrase "that is already or will
> be assigned by IANA" seems to be either redundant or too narrow.
>
GIM>> This text has been moved to the Operational Considerations section.
In the process of re-arraging we've removed the characterization "already
or will be assigned by IANA". Please let me know if the current version of
the text is acceptable.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Dale,<div>thank you for your review, c=
omments, and suggestions. Please find answers and notes in-line under the G=
IM&gt;&gt; tag.</div><div>Attached, please find the diff between -07 and th=
e current working version, as well as, the working version of the draft.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at =
6:01 PM Dale Worley via Datatracker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:noreply@ietf.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">noreply@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=C2=A0 ---------------------------------=
-------------------------------------<br>
I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area<br>
Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed<br>
by the IESG for the IETF Chair.=C2=A0 Please treat these comments just<br>
like any other last call comments.<br>
<br>
For more information, please see the FAQ at<br>
<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">https://trac.ietf.org/trac/gen/wiki/GenArtfaq</a>&g=
t;.<br>
<br>
Document:=C2=A0 draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-07<br>
Reviewer:=C2=A0 Dale R. Worley<br>
Review Date:=C2=A0 2019-09-03<br>
IETF LC End Date:=C2=A0 2019-09-03<br>
IESG Telechat date:=C2=A0 2019-09-19<br>
<br>
Summary:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This draft is on the right track but has open is=
sues, described<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in the review.<br>
<br>
Minor technical issue:<br>
<br>
4.4.=C2=A0 Interoperability with TWAMP Light<br>
<br>
The consequences of using a TWAMP Session-Sender with a STAMP<br>
Session-Reflector aren&#39;t adequately described.=C2=A0 I suspect that the=
 WG<br>
understands the technical solution, but the text does not make that<br>
clear.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0If the Server Octets field is present in the TWAMP<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Session-Sender packet, STAMP Session-Reflector will not copy t=
he<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0content starting from the Server Octets field but will transmi=
t the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0reflected packet of equal size.<br>
<br>
The final phrase appears to not be true.=C2=A0 In both unauthenticated and<=
br>
authenticated mode, the size of the reflected packet is fixed, and so<br>
in this case, it will not have equal size with the incoming packet.<br>
Also, there is no requirement that a STAMP Session-Reflector even<br>
accept incoming packets that are not of the standard length.<br></blockquot=
e><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for catching this issue. When the work on STAM=
P specification started, this draft also included extensions, such as Extra=
 Padding TLV. Over the course of our work, all extensions were moved to the=
 separate draft. Would the following update (including the previous paragra=
ph in the section) address your concern:</div><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0In the latter scenario, if a TWAMP Light Session-Sender does not<=
br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0support the use of UDP port 862, the test management system=
 MUST set<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0STAMP Session-Reflector to use UDP port number as=
 defined in<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 4.=C2=A0 If the TWAMP Light Session-Sen=
der includes Packet Padding<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0field in its transmitted packet=
, the STAMP Session-Reflector will<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0return the reflected pac=
ket of the symmetrical size if the size of<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0the received tes=
t packet is larger than the size of the STAMP base<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0packet.=
=C2=A0 The Session-Reflector MUST be set to use the default format<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0for its timestamps, NTP.<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0STAMP does not suppo=
rt the Reflect Octets capability defined in<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC6038].=C2=
=A0 If the Server Octets field is present in the TWAMP<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Sess=
ion-Sender packet, STAMP Session-Reflector will not copy the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0content starting from the Server Octets field but will transmit the<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0reflected packet of equal size.<br></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0In the latter scenario, if a TWAMP Light Session-Sender does n=
ot<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0support the use of UDP port 862, the test management sys=
tem MUST set<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0STAMP Session-Reflector to use UDP port number=
 as defined in<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 4.=C2=A0 The Session-Reflector MUST =
be set to use the default<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0format for its timestamps, NTP.<b=
r><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0A STAMP Session-Reflector that supports this specificati=
on would<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0transmit the base packet (Figure 5) regardless of =
the size of the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Padding field in the packet received from T=
WAMP Session-Sender.<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Also, STAMP does not support the Refle=
ct Octets capability defined in<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC6038].=C2=A0 If the Ser=
ver Octets field is present in the TWAMP<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Session-Sender pac=
ket, STAMP Session-Reflector will not copy the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0content star=
ting from the Server Octets field and will transmit the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0ref=
lected packet, as displayed in Figure 5.</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><b=
r><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
It seems that there is an unwritten requirement that a STAMP<br>
Session-Reflector accept longer packets than are expected for its<br>
configured operation mode and simply ignore the trailing excess<br>
octets.<br>
<br>
There are also some interactions with how the HMAC is verified for<br>
over-length incoming authenticated packets -- how does a STAMP<br>
Session-Reflector authenticate an incoming packet that is longer than<br>
the STAMP format?<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Authentication in TWAMP =
and STAMP use different algorithms (HMAC-SHA-256 in STAMP vs. HMAC-SHA-1 in=
 TWAMP as inherited from OWAMP [RFC4656]), we don&#39;t have the requiremen=
t to provide interoperability in Authenticated mode. Will update the first =
paragraph of the interoperability section to explicitly state the scope:</d=
iv><div>OLD TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0One of the essential requirements =
to STAMP is the ability to<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0interwork with a TWAMP Light dev=
ice.<br></div><div>NEW TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0One of the essential re=
quirements to STAMP is the ability to<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0interwork with a TWAM=
P Light device.=C2=A0 Because STAMP and TWAMP use<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0different=
 algorithms in Authenticated mode (HMAC-SHA-256 vs. HMAC-<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0S=
HA-1), interoperability is only considered for Unauthenticated mode.<br></d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Editorial issues: <br>
<br>
1.=C2=A0 Introduction<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and inherit separation of control (vendor-specific configurati=
on or<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0orchestration) and test functions.<br>
<br>
Is &quot;inherit&quot; intended to be &quot;inherent&quot;?<br></blockquote=
><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you. That was the intention. Done.=C2=A0</div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0One of such is Performance<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Measurement from IP Edge to Customer Equipment using TWAMP Lig=
ht from<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Broadband Forum [BBF.TR-390] used as the reference TWAMP Light=
 that,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0according to [RFC8545], includes sub-set of TWAMP-Test functio=
ns in<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0combination with other applications that provide, for example,=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0control and security.<br>
<br>
This sentence is awkward because of the length of the title in the<br>
middle of the sentence.=C2=A0 Perhaps<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0One of such is [BBF.TR-390] (Performance Measurement from IP E=
dge<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to Customer Equipment using TWAMP Light from the Broadband For=
um),<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0a the reference TWAMP Light, that includes a sub-set of TWAMP-=
Test<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0functions along with control and security functions.<br></bloc=
kquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for the proposed text. While addressing o=
ther comments the text has been transformed to the following:</div><div>CUR=
RENT TEXT:</div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Recent work on IP Edge to Customer Equipment u=
sing TWAMP Light from<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Broadband Forum [BBF.TR-390] demonstr=
ated that interoperability among<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0implementations of TWAMP L=
ight is challenged because the composition<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0and operation of=
 TWAMP Light were not sufficiently specified in<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC5357].=
=C2=A0 According to [RFC8545], TWAMP Light includes sub-set of<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0TWAMP-Test functions to provide comprehensive solution requires<br>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0support by other applications that provide, for example, contr=
ol and<br><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0security.=C2=A0</div><div>Hope the current vers=
ion is clearer and more readable.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=
ing-left:1ex">
<br>
--<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document defines an active performance measurement test p=
rotocol<br>
<br>
This sentence doesn&#39;t explicitly say that STAMP is connected to TWAMP,<=
br>
despite that the preceding sentence does explicitly say that<br>
BBF.TR-390 is connected to TWAMP.=C2=A0 Perhaps, &quot;This document define=
s<br>
another such mechanism ...&quot;=C2=A0 Perhaps also precede with a paragrap=
h<br>
break for clarity.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Introduction section no=
w has three paragraphs and the last refers to common extensions. Do you fee=
l that the current version made the relationship between TWAMP-Test and STA=
MP clearer:</div><div>CURRENT TEXT:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document de=
fines an active performance measurement test<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0protocol, Simp=
le Two-way Active Measurement Protocol (STAMP), that<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0enable=
s measurement of both one-way and round-trip performance<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0me=
trics like delay, delay variation, and packet loss.=C2=A0 Some TWAMP<br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0extensions, e.g., [RFC7750] are supported by the extensions to ST=
AMP<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0base specification in [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv].=
<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
2.1.=C2=A0 Terminology<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0AES Advanced Encryption Standard<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0CBC Cipher Block Chaining<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ECB Electronic Cookbook<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0KEK Key-encryption Key<br>
<br>
These four terms are not used in the document.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;=
&gt; Thank you, removed.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex">
<br>
3.=C2=A0 Softwarization of Performance Measurement<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The configuration and management of the STAMP Session-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Sender, Session-Reflector, and management of the STAMP session=
s can<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0be achieved through various means.<br>
<br>
You should probably revise to add &quot;... sessions are outside the scope<=
br>
of this document and can be ...&quot;.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Tha=
nk you for the suggested text. Agreed and added.=C2=A0</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Command Line Interface, OSS/BSS<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(operations support system/business support system as a combin=
ation<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of two systems used to support a range of telecommunication se=
rvices)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0using SNMP or controllers in Software-Defined Networking using=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Netconf/YANG are but a few examples.<br>
<br>
This sentence is long and awkward in a number of ways.=C2=A0 One version<br=
>
that I think is clearer is:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A few examples are:=C2=A0 Command Line Interface, telecommuni=
cation<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 services&#39; OSS/BSS systems, SNMP, and Netconf/YANG-based S=
DN<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 controllers.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Many thanks for=
 the proposal. The text is denser and informative.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
4.=C2=A0 Theory of Operation<br>
<br>
About half of the text in section 4 is about port assignments, but<br>
that isn&#39;t really part of the &quot;Theory of Operation&quot;.=C2=A0 I =
think the<br>
exposition would be easier to read if the text about port assignments<br>
was extracted and put into a separate subsection (probably placed<br>
between 4 and 4.1).<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve re-arranged S=
ection 4. Please let me know if the flow of information is clear and makes =
sense.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
4.1.1.=C2=A0 Session-Sender Packet Format in Unauthenticated Mode<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Sequence Number is four octets long field.=C2=A0 For e=
ach new session<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 its value starts at zero and is incremented with each =
transmitted<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 packet.<br>
<br>
There is no definition of what a STAMP session is in this document.<br></bl=
ockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
The idea is more or less obvious, but it would be useful to call out<br>
its primary properties in section 4 &quot;Theory of Operation&quot;.=C2=A0 =
It seems<br>
like the primary properties are that a session is between one<br>
Session-Sender and one Session-Reflector and a session contains a<br>
potentially unlimited number of packets sent between the two.<br></blockquo=
te><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Magnus had similar comment and in course of our discuss=
ion we&#39;ve agreed on the following definition of a STAMP session, now pa=
rt of Section 3:</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0In this document, a measurement ses=
sion also referred to as</div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0STAMP session, is the bi-directi=
onal packet flow between one specific<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Session-Sender and on=
e particular Session-Reflector for a time<br><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0duration.=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Timestamp is eight octets long field.=C2=A0 STAMP node=
 MUST support<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Network Time Protocol (NTP) version 4 64-bit timestamp=
 format<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC5905], the format used in [RFC5357].=C2=A0 STAMP n=
ode MAY support<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 IEEE 1588v2 Precision Time Protocol truncated 64-bit t=
imestamp<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 format [IEEE.1588.2008], the format used in [RFC8186].=
<br>
<br>
The specification of how the time format for a particular packet is<br>
chosen is weak.=C2=A0 I think you want to add to the above paragraph that<b=
r>
the choice of format is determined either by configuration or the Z<br>
bit in the Error Estimate field.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; In regard=
 to the format of a timestamp, STAMP specification follows the idea of RFC =
8186 where extension to negotiate timestamp format for TWAMP-Control and th=
e new interpretation of Z flag were defined. For STAMP, as defined for TWAM=
P, the value of the Z flag in the Error Estimate field is only to reflect t=
he format used by the node.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=
ing-left:1ex">
<br>
4.1.2.=C2=A0 Session-Sender Packet Format in Authenticated Mode<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Also, MBZ fields are used to align the packet on 16 octets<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0boundary.<br>
<br>
You can&#39;t align the packet itself using a field within the packet.<br>
You want to say &quot;are used to align the fields within the packet on 16<=
br>
octets boundaries.&quot;=C2=A0 Or perhaps &quot;to make the packet length a=
 multiple<br>
of 16 octets.&quot;=C2=A0 Similarly in 4.2.1 and 4.2.2.<br></blockquote><di=
v>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for the suggested text. I&#39;ve used the second op=
tion.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
4.2.=C2=A0 Session-Reflector Behavior and Packet Format<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Two modes of STAMP Session-Reflector characterize the expected=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0behavior and, consequently, performance metrics that can be me=
asured:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Stateless - STAMP Session-Reflector does not maintain =
test state<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and will reflect the received sequence number without<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 modification.=C2=A0 As a result, only round-trip packe=
t loss can be<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 calculated while the reflector is operating in statele=
ss mode.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Stateful - STAMP Session-Reflector maintains test stat=
e thus<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 enabling the ability to determine forward loss, gaps r=
ecognized in<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the received sequence number.=C2=A0 As a result, both =
near-end<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (forward) and far-end (backward) packet loss can be co=
mputed.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 That implies that the STAMP Session-Reflector MUST kee=
p a state<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 for each accepted STAMP-test session, uniquely identif=
ying STAMP-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 test packets to one such session instance, and enablin=
g adding a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 sequence number in the test reply that is individually=
 incremented<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 on a per-session basis.<br>
<br>
This seems important enough -- the mode determines what data STAMP<br>
can measure -- to be promoted to part of section 4, &quot;Theory of<br>
Operation&quot;.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I agree. Moved the text t=
o Section 4 and re-named this section to=C2=A0

Session-Reflector Packet Format

</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
4.3.=C2=A0 Integrity and Confidentiality Protection in STAMP<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0To provide integrity protection, each STAMP message is being<b=
r>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0authenticated by adding Hashed Message Authentication Code (HM=
AC).<br>
<br>
Of course, this is only regarding authenticated mode.=C2=A0 So you want to<=
br>
phrase this &quot;Authenticated mode provides integrity protection to each<=
br>
STAMP message by adding ...&quot;.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Again, =
thank you for the suggestion.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex">
<br>
4.4.=C2=A0 Interoperability with TWAMP Light<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0For example, a TWAMP Light<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Session-Reflector may not support the use of UDP port 862 as d=
efined<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0in [RFC8545].=C2=A0 Thus STAMP Session-Sender MAY use port num=
bers as<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defined in Section 4.<br>
<br>
The connection between these two sentences is unclear.=C2=A0 I think it<br>
means:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0For example, a TWAMP Light<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Session-Reflector may not support the use of UDP port 862 as s=
pecified<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0in [RFC8545].=C2=A0 Thus Section 4 permits a STAMP Session-Sen=
der to use<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0alternative ports.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Great, tha=
nk you!=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
--<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Session-Sender SHOULD use the default format for its timestamp=
s -<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0NTP.=C2=A0 And it MAY use PTPv2 timestamp format<br>
<br>
The first sentence could be made more specific.=C2=A0 But the second<br>
sentence seems to be redundant -- SHOULD is never mandatory, so you<br>
don&#39;t have to add a MAY.=C2=A0 So perhaps,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0When interoperating with a TWAMP Light Session-Reflector, the<=
br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Session-Sender SHOULD use the default format for its timestamp=
s -<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0NTP.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; We&#39;ve reviewed these=
 requirements and had agreed that they are not needed. The STAMP Session-Se=
nder is required to be able to interpret both formats, NTP and PTP2, and th=
e selection is local decision that has no impact on the ability to interwor=
k with TWAMP Light Session-Reflector. Hence, these two sentences were remov=
ed.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
--<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0In the latter scenario, if a TWAMP Light Session-Sender does n=
ot<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0support the use of UDP port 862, the test management system MU=
ST set<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0STAMP Session-Reflector to use UDP port number as defined in<b=
r>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 4.<br>
<br>
The phrase &quot;to use UDP port number as defined in Section 4&quot; isn&#=
39;t<br>
clear, since second 4 doesn&#39;t define what UDP port number should be<br>
used in this situation.=C2=A0 I think the meaning is &quot;the test managem=
ent<br>
system MUST set STAMP Session-Reflector to use an acceptable UDP port<br>
number, as permitted by Section 4&quot;.<br></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; T=
hank you, accepted the text you&#39;ve proposed.</div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
6.=C2=A0 Security Considerations<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0STAMP test packets can be transmitted with the destination UDP=
 port<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0number from the User Ports range, as defined in Section 4, tha=
t is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0already or will be assigned by IANA.<br>
<br>
This sentence seems to be more part of the port-number discussion (see<br>
comments on section 4) than security considerations -- unless the<br>
usage of port numbers is a topic in security.<br>
<br>
Additionally, it appears that section 4 requires that a STAMP service<br>
can be configured to sent packets to any port within the User Ports<br>
range, regardless of whether IANA assigns a User Port specifically to<br>
STAMP.=C2=A0 With this consideration, the phrase &quot;that is already or w=
ill<br>
be assigned by IANA&quot; seems to be either redundant or too narrow.<br></=
blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; This text has been moved to the Operational Con=
siderations section. In the process of re-arraging we&#39;ve removed the ch=
aracterization &quot;already or will be assigned by IANA&quot;. Please let =
me know if the current version of the text is acceptable.</div></div></div>

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