From nobody Thu Apr 2 08:09:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 683F13A1463; Thu, 2 Apr 2020 08:09:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fMR5k3p-dQ0i; Thu, 2 Apr 2020 08:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11DC13A1461; Thu, 2 Apr 2020 08:09:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049459.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049459.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 032ELIK2007367; Thu, 2 Apr 2020 11:09:51 -0400 Received: from tlpd255.enaf.dadc.sbc.com (sbcsmtp3.sbc.com [144.160.112.28]) by m0049459.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 305hab1mgd-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 02 Apr 2020 11:09:51 -0400 Received: from enaf.dadc.sbc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tlpd255.enaf.dadc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 032F9o0h127426; Thu, 2 Apr 2020 10:09:50 -0500 Received: from zlp30496.vci.att.com (zlp30496.vci.att.com [135.46.181.157]) by tlpd255.enaf.dadc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 032F9iQc127288 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 2 Apr 2020 10:09:45 -0500 Received: from zlp30496.vci.att.com (zlp30496.vci.att.com [127.0.0.1]) by zlp30496.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTP id F35274016983; Thu, 2 Apr 2020 15:09:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from clpi183.sldc.sbc.com (unknown [135.41.1.46]) by zlp30496.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTP id D36C34016965; Thu, 2 Apr 2020 15:09:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sldc.sbc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clpi183.sldc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 032F9iES008764; Thu, 2 Apr 2020 10:09:44 -0500 Received: from mail-blue.research.att.com (mail-blue.research.att.com [135.207.178.11]) by clpi183.sldc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 032F9cJ0008168; Thu, 2 Apr 2020 10:09:38 -0500 Received: from exchange.research.att.com (njbdcas1.research.att.com [135.197.255.61]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B813C10A199D; Thu, 2 Apr 2020 11:09:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from njmtexg5.research.att.com ([fe80::b09c:ff13:4487:78b6]) by njbdcas1.research.att.com ([fe80::8c6b:4b77:618f:9a01%11]) with mapi id 14.03.0468.000; Thu, 2 Apr 2020 11:09:37 -0400 From: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" To: Tommy Pauly , IETF IPPM WG , "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" , "ippm-ads@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ippm] Working Group Last Call: draft-ietf-ippm-route-06 Thread-Index: AQHVnbmctsAArMlvKUGd99bvmCQm8KeysAqAgLQTsDA= Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 15:09:37 +0000 Message-ID: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CFED66622F@njmtexg5.research.att.com> References: <3DD6FA18-520B-4459-96C0-F949A382C8DC@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <3DD6FA18-520B-4459-96C0-F949A382C8DC@apple.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [69.141.203.172] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.676 definitions=2020-04-02_05:2020-04-02, 2020-04-02 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 clxscore=1011 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 priorityscore=1501 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2004020131 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Working Group Last Call: draft-ietf-ippm-route-06 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2020 15:09:55 -0000 Hi Tommy and all, I just checked, somehow we missed the WG status for=20 the Route metrics draft at our meeting yesterday. version 07 was uploaded last year: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-route-07 this draft resolves the issue raised during WGLC. thanks, Al > -----Original Message----- > From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly > Sent: Monday, December 9, 2019 3:04 PM > To: IETF IPPM WG > Subject: Re: [ippm] Working Group Last Call: draft-ietf-ippm-route-06 >=20 > Hello all, >=20 > Thanks for your reviews and feedback! This last call has now ended, and w= e > will progress the document. >=20 > Based on the discussion on-list, we will expect an -07 revision before > sending up to the IESG. Brian Trammell has graciously offered to shepherd > the document. >=20 > Authors, please submit a revised version when ready. >=20 > Best, > Tommy >=20 > > On Nov 17, 2019, at 6:40 PM, Brian Trammell (IETF) > wrote: > > > > Greetings, all, > > > > The IPPM working group intends to send draft-ietf-ippm-route-06 to the > IESG for publication. This message begins a Working Group Last Call on to > end on Monday 9 December 2019. Please send a message to ippm@ietf.org > stating whether you believe the document is ready for publication, and if > not, please explain why not and/org provide comments to improve the > document for publication. > > > > Many thanks, cheers, > > > > Brian (as co-chair) > > _______________________________________________ > > ippm mailing list > > ippm@ietf.org > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps- > 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_ippm&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DLFYZ- > o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3DOfsSu8kTIltVyD1oL72cBw&m=3DxTFQ0uWF_P6se_Tm4MC_hTEh= RURpI > 7v8gTV1NyqhtZI&s=3DdB1cy1_Olnv5x_J_DAilR38gwmMwGW10Ce_bqhZkNHk&e=3D >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps- > 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_ippm&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DLFYZ- > o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3DOfsSu8kTIltVyD1oL72cBw&m=3DxTFQ0uWF_P6se_Tm4MC_hTEh= RURpI > 7v8gTV1NyqhtZI&s=3DdB1cy1_Olnv5x_J_DAilR38gwmMwGW10Ce_bqhZkNHk&e=3D From nobody Thu Apr 2 14:42:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 962793A0813 for ; 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Thu, 02 Apr 2020 14:42:21 -0700 (PDT) Sender: tpauly@apple.com From: Tommy Pauly Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3957BF55-13F8-46BD-990B-67A614D0F3AC" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.7.2.3\)) Message-id: Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2020 14:42:20 -0700 To: IETF IPPM WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.7.2.3) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.676 definitions=2020-04-02_11:2020-04-02, 2020-04-02 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Virtual IETF 107 Meeting Minutes and Video uploaded X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2020 21:42:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3957BF55-13F8-46BD-990B-67A614D0F3AC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello IPPM, Thanks to all who participated in our meeting on Wednesday! You can find the minutes of the meeting here: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-interim-2020-ippm-01-202004010800= / = You can find the recording of the meeting here: = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DZU6K43L2QXg&feature=3Dyoutu.be = Best, Tommy= --Apple-Mail=_3957BF55-13F8-46BD-990B-67A614D0F3AC Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hello IPPM,

Thanks to all who participated in our meeting on Wednesday!


You can find the recording of the meeting here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU6K43L2QXg&feature=youtu.be

Best,
Tommy
--Apple-Mail=_3957BF55-13F8-46BD-990B-67A614D0F3AC-- From nobody Sun Apr 5 11:26:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6145F3A0914 for ; Sun, 5 Apr 2020 11:26:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.797 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.797 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PbtwOLdCVzHC for ; Sun, 5 Apr 2020 11:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 43A403A090A for ; Sun, 5 Apr 2020 11:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049463.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049463.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 035ILxV6022414; Sun, 5 Apr 2020 14:25:48 -0400 Received: from tlpd255.enaf.dadc.sbc.com (sbcsmtp3.sbc.com [144.160.112.28]) by m0049463.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 306pkw940j-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 05 Apr 2020 14:25:48 -0400 Received: from enaf.dadc.sbc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tlpd255.enaf.dadc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 035IPlAv090507; Sun, 5 Apr 2020 13:25:47 -0500 Received: from zlp30499.vci.att.com (zlp30499.vci.att.com [135.46.181.149]) by tlpd255.enaf.dadc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 035IPirg090459 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 5 Apr 2020 13:25:44 -0500 Received: from zlp30499.vci.att.com (zlp30499.vci.att.com [127.0.0.1]) by zlp30499.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTP id 0BC754047690; Sun, 5 Apr 2020 18:25:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from clpi183.sldc.sbc.com (unknown [135.41.1.46]) by zlp30499.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTP id E192D404768F; Sun, 5 Apr 2020 18:25:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sldc.sbc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clpi183.sldc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 035IPgv0008984; Sun, 5 Apr 2020 13:25:43 -0500 Received: from mail-green.research.att.com (mail-green.research.att.com [135.207.255.15]) by clpi183.sldc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 035IPbKA008748; Sun, 5 Apr 2020 13:25:37 -0500 Received: from exchange.research.att.com (njbdcas1.research.att.com [135.197.255.61]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3C70E1092; Sun, 5 Apr 2020 14:25:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from njmtexg5.research.att.com ([fe80::b09c:ff13:4487:78b6]) by njbdcas1.research.att.com ([fe80::8c6b:4b77:618f:9a01%11]) with mapi id 14.03.0468.000; Sun, 5 Apr 2020 14:25:36 -0400 From: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" To: Tommy Pauly , IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: [ippm] Virtual IETF 107 Meeting Minutes and Video uploaded Thread-Index: AQHWCTe2aRS3GmY4AkCfexFsJy12Q6hq3APQ Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 18:25:35 +0000 Message-ID: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF0108A0F75C@njmtexg5.research.att.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [69.141.203.172] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF0108A0F75Cnjmtexg5resea_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.676 definitions=2020-04-05_08:2020-04-03, 2020-04-05 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 suspectscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 impostorscore=0 clxscore=1015 mlxlogscore=834 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2004050170 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Virtual IETF 107 Meeting Minutes and Video uploaded X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2020 18:26:01 -0000 --_000_4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF0108A0F75Cnjmtexg5resea_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Tommy, and thanks to Tal for taking minutes! I added a few comments on the Etherpad right after the meeting. Please consider them comments on the Published minutes [0] I believe they are both factual. regards, Al [0] https://etherpad.ietf.org:9009/p/notes-ietf-107-ippm From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 5:42 PM To: IETF IPPM WG Subject: [ippm] Virtual IETF 107 Meeting Minutes and Video uploaded Hello IPPM, Thanks to all who participated in our meeting on Wednesday! You can find the minutes of the meeting here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/= doc/minutes-interim-2020-ippm-01-202004010800/ You can find the recording of the meeting here: https://www.youtube.com/wat= ch?v=3DZU6K43L2QXg&feature=3Dyoutu.be Best, Tommy --_000_4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF0108A0F75Cnjmtexg5resea_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks Tommy, and thanks to Tal for taking min= utes!

 

I added a few comments on the Etherpad right a= fter the meeting.

Please consider them comments on the Published= minutes [0]

I believe they are both factual.

 

regards,

Al

 

[0] https= ://etherpad.ietf.org:9009/p/notes-ietf-107-ippm=

 

 

From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf= .org] On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly
Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2020 5:42 PM
To: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: [ippm] Virtual IETF 107 Meeting Minutes and Video uploaded<= o:p>

 

Hello IPPM,

 

Thanks to all who participated in our meeting on Wed= nesday!

 

You can find the minutes of the meeting here: <= a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__datatracke= r.ietf.org_doc_minutes-2Dinterim-2D2020-2Dippm-2D01-2D202004010800_&d= =3DDwMCAg&c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3DOfsSu8kTIltVyD1oL72cBw&= ;m=3DTVqlupTqvK-3jAXtThwsM_K2ocXIyUgA_1Hb6Y6t7x0&s=3Dba8bMsSb8guEUxZAdy= -2EcZ_mGiZ401yK1hb2XayWvg&e=3D">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minute= s-interim-2020-ippm-01-202004010800/

 

You can find the recording of the meeting here: = ;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DZU6K43L2QXg&feat= ure=3Dyoutu.be

 

Best,

Tommy

--_000_4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF0108A0F75Cnjmtexg5resea_-- From nobody Sun Apr 5 15:47:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 660F23A03F3; Sun, 5 Apr 2020 15:47:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.855 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.855 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NUMERIC_HTTP_ADDR=1.242, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BNQObsJkVMHj; Sun, 5 Apr 2020 15:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x234.google.com (mail-lj1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1938C3A0128; Sun, 5 Apr 2020 15:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x234.google.com with SMTP id i20so12664720ljn.6; Sun, 05 Apr 2020 15:47:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/AQKZsO1DijZm8Ck4u4Y0GkMlo8qrj5yxuoSN6V4B5c=; b=Yy7HSLmsUWszJAAR2hsUOByYRk5KCujn70d4IAOusOOgVhtdGYHLcH2SPSCb11bI16 hIbQAkBIUgVieHObe33OkhhsBOMzHZamn4p3KcZPP7FLOs+fOPWhWaZRDSA7GjmcvMsw TYzpV8egFyTzjL152ZGsJrXzH/7LxL+pYwYpJdErTKfgwU4jOAxzCsQadSlnc3YSWorg oX5olJxN7FOiL2P3uetsnO3nOPda5JUHETCvFQIo6QG2iXHHJO1VcqVSLVdiugmPXh9c W0vnwM8RnMcRRRSR7wB5rrP6XRtklKfnKLmWT9hz+Zg1QM269H4Cns9QEqxgR1iued18 3YJQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/AQKZsO1DijZm8Ck4u4Y0GkMlo8qrj5yxuoSN6V4B5c=; b=o97r398MtoExQPk6L69uEeXqZrIyYztck5ATDejUCUf8D78JaCtw57aovmE+jU4S/u x25anSNWJTdIT0dquuU+VQrZ1Ym9Ve7NmNJbttoJlv4+Jg6ZLCluUZ+dMkAdKxCsMkVa X6WtfbItIimuwIiVkYv3S+qWvDhytKcTxeLM0jr8/bj08ki4abpQc5Bvo0jt4KvXxZYX b5j6DulrrlAKk6TciBZVn0VrrgfflHtkE+6fkrCGSQEyf2MXT321yG6tCBCwU3NVqV0n HRAhmvYYK1LtiwqwiXQS/pqdsKpcfZkLB4Po6lXYP+0qOu/cXfA3XEyNxhdtWFOP7O+0 VSBA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaeM4gBZc1hXLc+Ko7dGYH5ywQxP+O+/OKpfd1IHy+PJyeq3LRS GORTXtjMEfLUTYb7cHRo+0OyQzaroebUxGL8ahA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKq0i117Yx1ylcFsR/UyBMz4I0s+ZeR1czAKE2FeA7RK1YsK5eaG+8b0NID9KnAFLrGYFNZ8MmLAlCeQbzbqa8= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:b558:: with SMTP id a24mr9969247ljn.56.1586126844261; Sun, 05 Apr 2020 15:47:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 15:47:13 -0700 Message-ID: To: Rakesh Gandhi Cc: spring , spring-chairs@ietf.org, IETF IPPM WG , IPPM Chairs , Mach Chen , Daniel Voyer , Bart Janssens Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001ef6e605a292efe5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] Updated draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2020 22:47:30 -0000 --0000000000001ef6e605a292efe5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Rakesh, thank you for your thoughtful consideration of our discussion. I have a couple of questions to draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm and hope you can clarify if I understand it correctly. In section 4.1 the process of selecting the destination IP address described s follows: When known, the reflector IPv4 or IPv6 address is used as the destination address. If not known, the address in the range of 127/8 for IPv4 or 0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00/104 for IPv6 is used as destination address. And Figure 2 presents an IP packet with the DM probe query message. I can imagine how the presented IP packet is encapsulated in SR-MPLS. Can you kindly clarify how it works in the case of SRv6? Would it be IP-over-SRv6 encapsulation? And I'm somewhat confused by the condition "if [refletor's IP address] not known". When this case might be used? Also, I've been explained that the proper notation of IPv6 addresses that are IPv4-mapped IPv4 loopback addresses is ::ffff:127.0.0.0/104. Regards, Greg On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 7:59 AM Rakesh Gandhi wrote: > Hi WG, > > Trust everyone is doing well. > > Authors have updated the SR PM draft for TWAMP (RFC 5357) and moved the > STAMP (now RFC 8762) extensions into a separate draft, as the SR PM > extensions are for two different RFCs and protocols. This was also a > feedback from the WG. > > Name: draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm > Title: Performance Measurement Using TWAMP Light for Segment Routing > Networks > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-08.txt > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm/ > Htmlized: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-08 > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm > Diff: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-08 > > Name: draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm > Title: Performance Measurement Using STAMP for Segment Routing Networks > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-00.txt > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm/ > Htmlized: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-00 > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm > > Many thanks for your feedback on this work. > Welcome your additional review comments and suggestions. > > Thanks, > Rakesh (for authors) > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --0000000000001ef6e605a292efe5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Rakesh,
thank you for your thoughtful consideration= of our discussion. I have a couple of questions to=C2=A0draft-gandhi-sprin= g-twamp-srpm and hope you can clarify if I understand=C2=A0it=C2=A0correctl= y. In section 4.1 the=C2=A0process of selecting the destination IP address = described s follows:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0When
=C2=A0 =C2=A0known, the ref= lector IPv4 or IPv6 address is used as the destination
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0address.=C2=A0 If not known, the address in the range of 127/8 for IPv4 = or
=C2=A0 =C2=A00:0:0:0:0:FFFF:7F00/104 for IPv6 is used as desti= nation address.
And Figure 2 presents an IP packet with t= he DM probe query message. I can imagine how the presented IP packet is enc= apsulated in SR-MPLS. Can you=20 kindly clarify how it works in the case of SRv6? Would it be IP-over-SRv6 e= ncapsulation? And I'm somewhat confused by the condition=C2=A0"if = [refletor's IP address] not known". When this case might=C2=A0be u= sed?=C2=A0
Also, I've been explained that the proper notation o= f IPv6 addresses that are IPv4-mapped IPv4 loopback addresses is=C2=A0::fff= f:127.0.0.0/104.

<= div>Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 7:59 AM Rakesh Gan= dhi <rgandhi.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi WG,

Trust everyone is doing well.
Authors have updated the SR PM draft for TWAMP (RFC 5357) and mo= ved the STAMP (now RFC 8762) extensions into a separate draft, as the SR PM= extensions are for two different RFCs and protocols. This was also a feedb= ack from the WG.

Name: draft-gandhi= -spring-twamp-srpm
Title: <= span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap"> Performance Measurement Using T= WAMP Light for Segment Routing Networks
Htmlized:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spr= ing-twamp-srpm-08
Htmlized:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/htm= l/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm
Diff:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-08=

Name: draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm=
Ti= tle: Performance Measurement Using STAMP for Segment Routing = Networks
URL:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/internet-= drafts/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-00.txt
Status:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0htt= ps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm/
Htmli= zed:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0ht= tps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-00
Htmlize= d:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp= -srpm

Many thanks for your feedback on = this work.
Welcome your additional review comments and sugge= stions.

Thanks,
Rakesh (for authors)


_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
--0000000000001ef6e605a292efe5-- From nobody Mon Apr 6 11:14:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C1413A0843 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 07:29:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.089 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=telecomitalia.it Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ptebDAlERadN for ; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 07:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx07.telecomitalia.it (mx07.telecomitalia.it [156.54.232.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DBE13A0838 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 07:29:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=telecomitalia.it; s=selector1; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; i=@telecomitalia.it; t=1586183350; x=2450096950; h=MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID:Subject:To; bh=y819RbQ3JiNrEoBp4Bt6saCEMGvP4jPY6nXkA0TKjSs=; b=Dpy8BQLVC+2Vce940Q3VCFQi2yVT5kTfvwoHpDSductspfvxD+YAmXPZcR6a+cNE 6csy7Q8dodCN3mgEPmZHNxM7jodAbcACN6LN0yaF0Yo6HFjaGdDca7OxORixw/w4 R9R/4Laevg29wMzhvM8Qf8jxEza8+zhjEAUIKCXeel+63Z7Dxx2PSmm4dGSkkEdZ lpY23zzmpUxMt5T2DX77bz1Aq0tO5UkWjGiiSjk2wPU+NRaZDAgV+4CeCSjb5NwP 42pwmr0lYQIzJrzSX2O65jivuMhOWY+tj5kceAqYBv6NqtB2xRE49+/DECWF9LI1 gfdu9HUGQDMNEOXiGYzMXw==; X-AuditID: 0a5a2d17-15cdaa8000008b12-ff-5e8b3cb63c41 Received: from TELMBXD12BA020.telecomitalia.local ( [10.90.43.47]) by mx07.telecomitalia.it () with SMTP id FB.94.35602.6BC3B8E5; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 16:29:10 +0200 (CEST) From: Cociglio Mauro To: "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" CC: "Bulgarella Fabio (Guest)" , "Nilo Massimo" , Giuseppe Fioccola , 'Riccardo Sisto' Thread-Topic: [ippm] Virtual IETF 107 Meeting Minutes and Video uploaded Thread-Index: AdYMGz/qHskAAVsWTT2nPThoD6G51A== Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 14:29:09 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: it-IT, en-US Content-Language: it-IT X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [82.54.216.106] x-ti-disclaimer: ADBanner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_d08a6b86cc384c4896a4b05395b62c85TELMBXD14BA020telecomit_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrKKsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXCFaWtr7vNpjvOoHGuqMWaOSuYLHoevGN2 YPJoOfKW1WPJkp9MAUxRDYw2iXl5+SWJJakKKanFybZKLpnFyTmJmbmpRQqOLk5AydQiJYXM FFslMyWFgpzE5NTc1LwSW6XEgoLUvBQlOy4FDGADVJaZp5Cal5yfkpmXbqvkGeyva2Fhaqlr qGQXWJpaXJKvkJtaXJyYnp6Zr5BwUSTj7v7trAX3civevT3I2MB4KbGLkZNDQsBEYv6vO8xd jFwcQgKrGCXWND9iB0mwCZhJnNnyjA3EFhEwklhx7BULSBGzwG1GiVlfPoIVCQu4Sjx/dZgZ oshD4syrA4wQtp7Emh9HwOIsAioSKyZNAYvzCgRKvG3ZwQpiMwrISkzYvQgsziwgLvFi+gl2 iIsEJJbsOc8MYYtKvHz8jxXCNpDYunQfC4StKLHhyXuouKTE4cOb2CDm5Ev0tZxlg9glKHFy 5hOWCYzCs5CsmIWkbBaSMoi4nsSNqVPYIGxtiWULXzND2LoSM/4dYkEWX8DIvopRNLfCwFyv JDUnNTk/N7MkMSczUS+zZBMjOGHoiu9gnLDhjd4hRiYOxkOMEhzMSiK8Ur2dcUK8KYmVValF +fFFpTmpxYcYfYCBNJFZSjQ5H5iy8kriDU3NTM2NjcxMDUzNLHEIK4nzMjF2xwkJpAMTVXZq akFqEcw4Jg5OqQYm3QC2E2HiiRZpebYrV4g/1r1/Jtk2XcfUn3Pvn/3bt3AzmU2PklJeMtte Z96m49tyr/3ZKeRSVvHK4Obpj2zrTu7nnX3K4LagR4XSycsxcrO2SGqkimSwZ7LwSC00mNf2 eouE5A3Zl8eZOeM/1Pjo+y6foBAmzaA4efrjzP826/5vMXQIOv3HL+BfStfv1QbJ2x89erHx 98XD5556zLG63GgxdcnueWonVodxfN2iwWU+q1FhUfH5DJVm6ULndN+D/j5d258UvFyrLfh1 zvpnkn0O79dvMi//FHYnSmbnqoOmRYLbExrPC9xh//Frwc2Zr9jUeqKv/lrcFykgJ9M7a37s aYn5stFbf0u6+Dd8VmIpzkg01GIuKk4EAAgi6zG4AwAA Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] R: Virtual IETF 107 Meeting Minutes and Video uploaded X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2020 14:29:22 -0000 --_000_d08a6b86cc384c4896a4b05395b62c85TELMBXD14BA020telecomit_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear IPPMers. Unfortunately, due to lack of time, we were unable to present our draft duri= ng the last interim meeting (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cfb-ippm-spin= bit-measurements-01). So we would like to illustrate the content and invite the WG to feedback and= comment on the mailing list. The scope of the draft is to define a new performance measurement technique= in client server protocols. These measures can be referred as Explicit Performance Measurements, since t= hey are carried out on a session basis and allow end-to-end information for= on-path observers. This is because the protocol itself marks packets when they are generated (u= nlike the current implementations of RFC8321, where the packets are marked b= y the network nodes). These explicit measurements are becoming particularly important from the poi= nt of view of network operators, since many applications have already starte= d to use encrypted protocols and this makes very difficult to perform measur= ements on production traffic. In particular, in the QUIC WG, there are some proposals for using the only u= nencrypted byte available in the packet header. The current discussion is about the use of 3 of these 8 bits for performance= measurements. The first bit, the so called Spin bit, has been standardized to measure the= Client Server RTT (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-transpor= t-27). The measurement of packet loss is still under discussion and our draft intro= duces two alternatives about the usage of the additional 2 bits. The first one is a spin-bit dependent signal and uses a single bit. The seco= nd one, described in the following linked slides, is a standalone solution b= ased on a two bits loss signal and on alternate marking (RFC8321). This last methodology improves the algorithm described in https://tools.ietf= .org/html/draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-quic-lossbits-03 (this draft is also inves= tigating packet loss measurement for QUIC). You can find the slides, we prepared for the IPPM interim meeting, at the fo= llowing link: https://github.com/ietf-ippm/meeting-materials/blob/aa486f7ead= 28b9f55c5ef499e5c9ed33ab06daf9/ietf107-virtual/Slides/07-spinbit-measurement= s.pdf Comments and suggestions are always welcome on the mailing list. Thanks to all. Mauro, Giuseppe, Fabio, Massimo and Riccardo _____________________ Mauro Cociglio Telecom italia-TIM Via G. Reiss Romoli, 274 10148 - Torino (Italy) Tel.: +390112285028 Mobile: +393357669751 _____________________ Da: ippm Per conto di Tommy Pauly Inviato: gioved=EC 2 aprile 2020 23:42 A: IETF IPPM WG Oggetto: [EXT] [ippm] Virtual IETF 107 Meeting Minutes and Video uploaded Hello IPPM, Thanks to all who participated in our meeting on Wednesday! You can find the minutes of the meeting here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/d= oc/minutes-interim-2020-ippm-01-202004010800/ You can find the recording of the meeting here: https://www.youtube.com/watc= h?v=3DZU6K43L2QXg&feature=3Dyoutu.be Best, Tommy Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle pers= one indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dalla= conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abbia= te ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di darne= immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione, G= razie. This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged i= nformation intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, print= ing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended reci= pient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sender= by return e-mail, Thanks. Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =E8 necessario. --_000_d08a6b86cc384c4896a4b05395b62c85TELMBXD14BA020telecomit_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear IPPMers.<= /p>

 

Unfortunately, due to lack of ti= me, we were unable to present our draft during the last interim meeting (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cfb-ippm-spinb= it-measurements-01).

So we would like to illustrate t= he content and invite the WG to feedback and comment on the mailing list.

 

The scope of the draft is to def= ine a new performance measurement technique in client server protocols.=

These measures can be referred a= s Explicit Performance Measurements, since they are carried out on a session= basis and allow end-to-end information for on-path observers.

This is because the protocol its= elf marks packets when they are generated (unlike the current implementation= s of RFC8321, where the packets are marked by the network nodes).=

These explicit measurements are= becoming particularly important from the point of view of network operators= , since many applications have already started to use encrypted protocols an= d this makes very difficult to perform measurements on production traffic.

In particular, in the QUIC WG, t= here are some proposals for using the only unencrypted byte available in the= packet header.

The current discussion is about= the use of 3 of these 8 bits for performance measurements.

The first bit, the so called Spi= n bit, has been standardized to measure the Client Server RTT (see https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-transport= -27).

The measurement of packet loss is still under discu= ssion and our draft introduces two alternatives about the usage of the additional 2 bits.

The first one is a spin-bit dependent signal and uses a single bit. The sec= ond one, described in the following linked slides, is a standalone = ;solution based on a two bits loss signal and on alternate marking (RFC8321)= .

This last methodology improves the algorithm described in https://= tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-quic-lossbits-03 (this draft is also investigating packet loss measurement for QUIC).<= u>

 

You can find the slides, we prep= ared for the IPPM interim meeting, at the following link: https://github.com/ietf-ippm/meeting-materia= ls/blob/aa486f7ead28b9f55c5ef499e5c9ed33ab06daf9/ietf107-virtual/Slides/07-s= pinbit-measurements.pdf

 

Comments and suggestions are alw= ays welcome on the mailing list.

 

Thanks to all.

 

Mauro, Giuseppe, Fabio, Massimo and Riccardo

 = ;

__________= ___________

Mauro Coci= glio

Telecom it= alia-TIM

Via G. Rei= ss Romoli, 274

10148 - To= rino (Italy)

Tel.: += ;390112285028

Mobile: &#= 43;393357669751

__________= ___________

 = ;

 = ;

Da: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> Per= conto di Tommy Pauly
Inviato: gioved=EC 2 aprile 2020 23:42
A: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Oggetto: [EXT] [ippm] Virtual IETF 107 Meeting Minutes and Video uplo= aded

 

Hello IPPM,

 

Thanks to all who participated in our meeting on Wedn= esday!

 

You can find the minutes of the meeting here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-interim-2020-ippm-01-2020= 04010800/

 

You can find the recording of the meeting here: = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DZU6K43L2QXg&feature=3Dyoutu.be

 

Best,

Tommy

Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle= persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante d= alla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora a= bbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di da= rne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione= , Grazie.

This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privil= eged information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying,= printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intende= d recipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the s= ender by return e-mail, Thanks.

Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non è necessa= rio.
--_000_d08a6b86cc384c4896a4b05395b62c85TELMBXD14BA020telecomit_-- From nobody Mon Apr 6 11:56:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41FA43A0840 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 11:56:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.886 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.886 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4BrWHtf9l7_F for ; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 11:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic311-30.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic311-30.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.188.211]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D318E3A040A for ; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 11:56:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1586199406; bh=1b9F1EtyPfu12f1Ph3sQAxkOdDvWKrlFT45m5qJJRDw=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=fw6AwkoB1Bk+wJgOVmsMHAzEyi2igVNpaLnCwiUfQCbWNBHA73X4s92youJKn8jSqyIWQ2eJI8Z5pSz6UBbJ8jGZLcbKJEz1+YNUsULwjtpRfFmESQ7w8DV1oBZSzS/8qT+piel9M2U9qFCBFF9kkgB9q9IEzoDFP7wTBQKedJdJtCKJgszmdkJBC0wpEui3Bm6PPwLVLUPlRCR7eDt2JgnYRgO3F/LRSSR4YlspMyTzq442QHghhJ66AQhiRbY5zlDzpD/7qRJ/sNv4N7OSo0T0XjVuVl5ZkjFS62ldKWLzoyRCjvf/sP3jk0Ek23xqKT/0GukbVvqVBVTTP7qitg== X-YMail-OSG: .pKY60sVM1mG82OhlO24PJydDOoDFhzGY8Le2nrHSztsJyRqf0qLRGGwL2feK_X oUPldquKEX1YuW0BpBkt0hVSJB5Yxl8DHYOAulA_FgqXfY8n3yorewwpMXpy68LExZ4QBNJ64sg3 QK5LuWKmEujpgKApLuI5_8c9u0iQPut0GGtgqgxRR6hvxdjOCTVWGcQT_f0h9eO6mCBqVuUMaXFP w5Od.2vevvZCvds6Sp_mfFeKaD6ZkPCBehSydHmt_E2l113uLnhs_5gliS.CuVoYPB_Vx.D5XoXf cF5MWHJaRYY.6lR4h56Ks94qiwd8t7KQq5f7F1exgOiSEXq.HGid3kaGMxfhe9D_A7811jlNvScs Haqch0hIQj2XAfjWJkLXVUz9Qb.6XfVisQr3l_n7EFqZQELvJcp8OG3GFDW70K1rfhAabB.sFD9p 2qHN4mRkkjWQc3QTNHL4JnZdURCzps89pQLoBnJc7bYqewiBR5AF_V3aMZUJ2rSHhZ8.Z7Xl1kUl sM.KiW7gT1HoIu0c2g_bqTVHveCxXZeqtf0FOVkKHOcgQ0sKd5Se7wQLT00rHpXh7_cKjlkadXkv RzfTb6r0VzU9HSdOKkRBdatjWcukXJUCqSju49lgLcv4bEfsC0v29ZQ1aQsWT.NquPiTYtMBCnfF 5VCFFtv9PMt9nsZOMcsQjIcEccquR6Uo2fB4EROi3_udUZEGBz2Qu.3epBnc6rhX_L.UafpSQVaD uFprwi_u7h6avk31pF43Imsr3rO2WAYwz5MMvZfia0w8AoWmLWSkol_R17MX0cvOz_dNrdLT.4Bx HyAJI6OCO7i9soQPNHUj2CUqIWfr1WDyX_O9p_5M7koso_RjWLGv2y3MhAvhY.XQLENL.Ej9oEil zFU.TpTRvBJieiri4xUuGzO_LAsc_q0jk5yDD1phyYgp6WCHLmtdCnf2MKaE3t8xdZi68wR7osEz vDXEeorm0v6VsKX6BNntKx9.Es3PHK_3cHJXHHNiP5vfU7WPJjgQgUIMQJjse5Bh02zfu5MvF.xQ Qpq6v1SVhhmKpaBfD_vmoTvLCd.DsJm73Z78somw1hl_h1xOyqUxP34Aq7MOEWOh_aYgfaVH4VI_ mvaJjqUlup1EkENq0foHFPqySQ1ptAiVnJV91o.NS5RFhYh.7o5d9RInafmfS8Vq6uU6w2B5tgfj ykA2OdFi6k_TlLCvAJu0f87HpbrU6dqB9g8KygM9vrunqYA.LUFp2.6sB7aNDnPubUb25SIjWIsg pfZTtzXVavdrR9dXBA6Ds7wlyKavZ.mCY_rNdygE3t2GtL94Qkcisr7yO2JmqW9a1wQTQJPmPsmj bFMUvbCzOjOf0NGxoTbCnF7HCHvWP3CVL0MtFzh8- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic311.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 18:56:46 +0000 Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 18:56:41 +0000 (UTC) From: "nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com" To: "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" , Cociglio Mauro Cc: 'Riccardo Sisto' , Michael Ackermann , Rob Hamilton Message-ID: <1341276584.1424573.1586199401894@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1424572_630157205.1586199401891" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15620 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/80.0.3987.149 Safari/537.36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] R: Virtual IETF 107 Meeting Minutes and Video uploaded X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2020 18:56:51 -0000 ------=_Part_1424572_630157205.1586199401891 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IPPMers, So sorry that we cannot have this conversation face to face.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Al= so, hope that you and your loved ones are safe and healthy. I wanted to suggest that perhaps we consider PDM for this purpose.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0The reasons: 1.=C2=A0 PDM is already client based. 2.=C2=A0 There is an RFC - RFC8250 3.=C2=A0 We have a FreeBSD implementation (which we can modify) 4.=C2=A0 We can create PDM v2 which will have quite a bit more real estate 5.=C2=A0 Since PDM is at the IP layer, it will cover all protocols, not jus= t QUIC. I am explicitly copying the co-authors.=C2=A0 We are happy to have a web ba= sed meeting to discuss collaboration. Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360=20 On Monday, April 6, 2020, 11:14:12 AM PDT, Cociglio Mauro wrote: =20 =20 =20 Dear IPPMers. =20 =C2=A0 =20 Unfortunately, due to lack of time, we were unable to present our draft dur= ing the last interim meeting (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cfb-ippm-sp= inbit-measurements-01). =20 So we would like to illustrate the content and invite the WG to feedback an= d comment on the mailing list. =20 =C2=A0 =20 The scope of the draft is to define a new performance measurement technique= in client server protocols. =20 These measures can be referred as Explicit Performance Measurements, since = they are carried out on a session basis and allow end-to-end information fo= r on-path observers. =20 This is because the protocol itself marks packets when they are generated (= unlike the current implementations of RFC8321, where the packets are marked= by the network nodes). =20 These explicit measurements are becoming particularly important from the po= int of view of network operators, since many applications have already star= ted to use encrypted protocols and this makes very difficult to perform mea= surements on production traffic. =20 In particular, in the QUIC WG, there are some proposals for using the only = unencrypted byte available in the packet header. =20 The current discussion is about the use of 3 of these 8 bits for performanc= e measurements. =20 The first bit, the so called Spin bit,=C2=A0has been standardized to measur= e the Client Server RTT (seehttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-tra= nsport-27). =20 The measurement of packet loss is still under discussion and our draft intr= oduces two=C2=A0alternatives about the usage of the additional 2 bits. =20 The=C2=A0first one=C2=A0is a spin-bit=C2=A0dependent signal and uses a sing= le bit. The second one,=C2=A0described in the following linked slides, is a= standalone=C2=A0solution based on a two bits loss signal and on alternate = marking (RFC8321).. =20 This last methodology=C2=A0improves=C2=A0the algorithm described in=C2=A0ht= tps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-quic-lossbits-03=C2=A0(th= is draft is also investigating packet loss measurement for QUIC). =20 =C2=A0 =20 You can find the slides, we prepared for the IPPM interim meeting, at the f= ollowing link:https://github.com/ietf-ippm/meeting-materials/blob/aa486f7ea= d28b9f55c5ef499e5c9ed33ab06daf9/ietf107-virtual/Slides/07-spinbit-measureme= nts.pdf =20 =C2=A0 =20 Comments and suggestions are always welcome on the mailing list. =20 =C2=A0 =20 Thanks to all. =20 =C2=A0 =20 Mauro, Giuseppe, Fabio, Massimo and Riccardo =20 =C2=A0 =20 _____________________ =20 Mauro Cociglio =20 Telecom italia-TIM=20 =20 Via G. Reiss Romoli, 274 =20 10148 - Torino (Italy) =20 Tel.: +390112285028 =20 Mobile: +393357669751 =20 _____________________ =20 =C2=A0 =20 =C2=A0 =20 Da: ippm Per conto di Tommy Pauly Inviato: gioved=C3=AC 2 aprile 2020 23:42 A: IETF IPPM WG Oggetto: [EXT] [ippm] Virtual IETF 107 Meeting Minutes and Video uploaded =20 =C2=A0 =20 Hello IPPM, =20 =C2=A0 =20 Thanks to all who participated in our meeting on Wednesday! =20 =C2=A0 =20 You can find the minutes of the meeting here:=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf= .org/doc/minutes-interim-2020-ippm-01-202004010800/ =20 =C2=A0 =20 You can find the recording of the meeting here:=C2=A0https://www.youtube.co= m/watch?v=3DZU6K43L2QXg&feature=3Dyoutu.be =20 =C2=A0 =20 Best, =20 Tommy =20 | | | Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle = persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante d= alla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora = abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di = darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzi= one, Grazie.=20 This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privilege= d information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, p= rinting or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended= recipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the s= ender by return e-mail, Thanks. =20 Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =C3=A8 necessario. | _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm =20 ------=_Part_1424572_630157205.1586199401891 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
IPPMers,

S= o sorry that we cannot have this conversation face to face.   Als= o, hope that you and your loved ones are safe and healthy.

I wanted to suggest that perhaps we consider PDM for this purpose.  =  The reasons:

1.  PDM is already client based.<= /div>

2.  There is an RFC - RFC8250

3.&n= bsp; We have a FreeBSD implementation (which we can modify)

4.  We can create PDM v2 which will have quite a bit more real es= tate

5.  Since PDM is at the IP layer, it will cover= all protocols, not just QUIC.
=
I am explicitly copying th= e co-authors.  We are happy to have a web based meeting to discuss col= laboration.

Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
w= ww.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360


=20
=20
On Monday, April 6, 2020, 11:14:12 AM PDT, Cociglio Mau= ro <mauro.cociglio=3D40telecomitalia.it@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:


=20 =20

Dear IP= PMers.

=20

 =

=20

Unfortu= nately, due to lack of time, we were unable to present our draft during the= last interim meeting (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measureme= nts-01).

=20

So we w= ould like to illustrate the content and invite the WG to feedback and comme= nt on the mailing list.

=20

 =

=20

The sco= pe of the draft is to define a new performance measurement technique in cli= ent server protocols.

=20

These m= easures can be referred as Explicit Performance Measurements, since they ar= e carried out on a session basis and allow end-to-end information for on-pa= th observers.

=20

This is= because the protocol itself marks packets when they are generated (unlike = the current implementations of RFC8321, where the packets are marked by the= network nodes).

=20

These e= xplicit measurements are becoming particularly important from the point of = view of network operators, since many applications have already started to = use encrypted protocols and this makes very difficult to perform measurements on production traffic.

=20

In part= icular, in the QUIC WG, there are some proposals for using the only unencry= pted byte available in the packet header.

=20

The cur= rent discussion is about the use of 3 of these 8 bits for performance measu= rements.

=20

The fir= st bit, the so called Spin bit, has been standardized to measure the C= lient Server RTT (see https://tools.i= etf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-transport-27).

=20

= The measurement of packet loss is still un= der discussion and our draft introduces two alternatives about the usage of the additional 2 bits.

=20

= The first one is a spin-bit dependent signal and uses a single bit. The se= cond one, described in the following linked slides, is a standalone&nb= sp;solution based on a two bits loss signal and on alternate marking (RFC83= 21)..

=20

= This last methodology <= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:= #212121;font-style:normal;">improves the algorithm described in = https= ://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-quic-lossbits-03<= /span> (this draft is also investigating packet loss measurement for QUIC).=

=20

 =

=20

You can= find the slides, we prepared for the IPPM interim meeting, at the followin= g link: https:= //github.com/ietf-ippm/meeting-materials/blob/aa486f7ead28b9f55c5ef499e5c9e= d33ab06daf9/ietf107-virtual/Slides/07-spinbit-measurements.pdf

=20

 =

=20

Comment= s and suggestions are always welcome on the mailing list.

=20

 =

=20

Thanks to all.

=20

 

=20

Mauro, Giuseppe, Fabio, Mass= imo and Riccardo

=20

 

=20

_____________________<= /span>

=20

Mauro Cociglio<= /p>=20

Telecom italia-TIM=20

=20

Via G. Reiss Romoli, 2= 74

=20

10148 - Torino (Italy)=

=20

Tel.: +390112285028

=20

Mobile: +393357669751<= /span>

=20

_____________________<= /span>

=20

 

=20

 

=20

Da: ippm <ippm-bou= nces@ietf.org> Per conto di Tommy Pauly
Inviato: gioved=C3=AC 2 aprile 2020 23:42
A: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Oggetto: [EXT] [ippm] Virtual IETF 107 Meeting Minutes and Video upl= oaded

=20

 

=20

Hello IPPM,

=20

 

=20

Thanks to all who participat= ed in our meeting on Wednesday!

=20

 

=20

You can find the minutes of = the meeting here: http= s://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-interim-2020-ippm-01-202004010800/=

=20

 

=20

You can find the recording o= f the meeting here: https://= www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DZU6K43L2QXg&feature=3Dyoutu.be

=20

 

=20

Best,

=20

Tommy

=20
=09
=09=09 =09=09 =09=09=09 =09=09 =09=09 =09=09=09 =09=09 =09=09
=09=09=09
=09=09=09=09Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivame= nte alle persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione de= rivante dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate.= Qualora abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pr= egati di darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua= distruzione, Grazie. =09=09=09=09

=09=09=09=09 =09=09=09=09=09This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may con= tain privileged information intended for the addressee(s) only. Disseminati= on, copying, printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are no= t the intended recipient, please delete this message and any attachments an= d advise the sender by return e-mail, Thanks. =09=09=09=09 =09=09=09=09

=09=09=09=09Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =C3=A8 = necessario. =09=09=09
=09
_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list<= br>ippm= @ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm<= /a>
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(CEST) From: Justin Iurman Reply-To: Justin Iurman To: "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Message-ID: <594897621.1176077.1586278090726.JavaMail.zimbra@uliege.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [81.244.8.114] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.8.15_GA_3901 (ZimbraWebClient - FF74 (Linux)/8.8.15_GA_3895) Thread-Index: Ef24dIDJyFNvbcgl9/Ye7e6r8rlSlw== Thread-Topic: IPv6 IOAM data alignment Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] IPv6 IOAM data alignment X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2020 16:48:18 -0000 Frank, Could you have a look at this [1] issue I opened yesterday about data alignment? There might be a potential inconsistency between [draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options] and [draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data], leading to bad alignment of 8-octet fields. Thanks, Justin [1] https://github.com/inband-oam/ietf/issues/164 From nobody Tue Apr 7 13:30:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43E6C3A0E1C for ; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 13:30:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=futurewei.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OPthNi3Zc-KQ for ; Tue, 7 Apr 2020 13:30:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM12-DM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-dm6nam12on2090.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.243.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E5B73A0E18 for ; 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Tue, 7 Apr 2020 20:30:44 +0000 From: Haoyu Song To: "ippm@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Multicast telemetry Thread-Index: AdYEf1PEE1icBqW/T2yr5Pnelmr1RAB3k1ZgABj8yCABlkHfYA== Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 20:30:44 +0000 Message-ID: References: <4e87ee6961974d639ec2196af6a580c7@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=haoyu.song@futurewei.com; x-originating-ip: [69.149.42.153] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: b612298d-f3a4-4c9f-8fcd-08d7db328c82 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM6PR13MB3563: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:7691; x-forefront-prvs: 036614DD9C x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DM6PR13MB2762.namprd13.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:(10019020)(4636009)(366004)(136003)(39840400004)(376002)(396003)(346002)(64756008)(9686003)(3480700007)(6506007)(478600001)(33656002)(7116003)(55016002)(53546011)(71200400001)(2906002)(26005)(6916009)(66476007)(66946007)(316002)(8676002)(8936002)(66556008)(7696005)(5660300002)(81156014)(52536014)(81166006)(76116006)(44832011)(186003)(66446008)(966005)(86362001); 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boundary="_000_DM6PR13MB2762EDB78619277A9801AA209AC30DM6PR13MB2762namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b612298d-f3a4-4c9f-8fcd-08d7db328c82 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Apr 2020 20:30:44.6270 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: S/tq6QCWbCgC7whANYjkh0olcf1Ra1OK2HX/u9ivlNdu7hmhjCLsApxQxp9ZBcwrH4ELg6cVtXXblmDB+3R+xg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR13MB3563 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Multicast telemetry X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Apr 2020 20:30:49 -0000 --_000_DM6PR13MB2762EDB78619277A9801AA209AC30DM6PR13MB2762namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IPPM WG, Based on Tianran's observation, we have updated the draft to a new version = which describe how the branch ID information is carried with the IOAM DEX h= eader and passed to the downstream nodes. In the data export postcards, the branch ID is still encoded with the node = ID fields, as Frank suggested earlier. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-multicast-telemetry/ Please review the draft and provide feedbacks. Thanks! Haoyu From: ippm On Behalf Of Haoyu Song Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 10:42 AM To: Tianran Zhou ; Michael McBride ; ippm@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ippm] Multicast telemetry Hi Tianran, Please see the inline reply. Haoyu From: ippm > On Behalf = Of Tianran Zhou Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 11:57 PM To: Michael McBride >; ippm@ietf..org Subject: Re: [ippm] Multicast telemetry Hi Michael, Thank you very much for bringing this interesting topic and the update to t= he mailing list. I have several questions after reading the document: 1. What's your assumption for the solution on the multicast tree topolog= y, known or unknown? If known, we know the node sequence, the branch node. = I am not sure if we need to take the branch information or not, probably no= t. If unknown, how to identify the branch node and "We just need to configu= re the branch node to export the postcard and refresh the IOAM header and d= ata."(in section 4.2) HS> There's no assumption on whether the multicast tree topology is known o= r unknown. If it's known, either this is known by different entities from t= he monitor or you still want to verify it from the real monitoring results.= If it's unknown, we can still configure the telemetry behavior to all the = node. When in operation, if a node actually becomes a branch node, it will = follow the configured telemetry behavior. 1. Section 4.1, you propose the way to use branch node ID plus an index = as the branch ID. Did you consider multiple trees in the network and one no= de is just in multiple trees? How to encode the index? What's the differenc= e to the node ID + interface ID? HS> The branch ID is only valid per multicast tree instance. If a node is a= branch node for multiple multicast trees, each instance can have its own b= ranch ID set. The most compact way to encode the index is simply numbering the interface.= What you said (using node ID + i/f ID) can also differentiate the branches= , but it has some issues: the i/f ID might be too long, making the resultin= g branch ID very different from the original node ID; the branch IDs are no= t consecutive numbers, making it difficult to correlate the branches and id= entify missing branches. 1. Also the section 4.1, as shown in figure 1, each node need to export = the branch ID which is actually belongs to the preceding node. How to bring= the preceding node information to the next hop? HS> This is a good observation. Thank you for catch it. In the earlier vers= ion, we consider to augment/modify the IOAM DEX header to include the branc= h ID field. In this new version, we consider to move it to the node data fi= eld. You are right, we cannot pass this information to the next node. I thi= nk to amend this, we can make this field an optional field in the DEX heade= r. We need to give this more thought. As this is an informational document, but right now it contains some norma= tive part IMO. I have great interest on this work. What's your consequent p= lan? HS> Our goal is to try the best to comply with the existing standard propos= als such as IOAM Trace and IOAM DEX and propose solutions for different mul= ticast techniques. So far it seems possible to realize that without introdu= cing fundamental changes. This is still a working document and we welcome a= ll contributions.. Thanks, Tianran From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael McBride Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2020 5:47 AM To: ippm@ietf.org Subject: [ippm] Multicast telemetry Hello, We didn't make it on the agenda for next week, which is fine, but did want = to raise awareness of draft-song-multicast-telemetry-02 which we updated la= st month. Among other edits, we included Frank's comments, from Singapore, = where he suggested encoding the branch identifier in the existing node ID d= ata field. Please give it a read and let's discuss on the list: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-multicast-telemetry/ thanks, mike --_000_DM6PR13MB2762EDB78619277A9801AA209AC30DM6PR13MB2762namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

IPPM WG,

 

Based on Tianran’s observation, we have update= d the draft to a new version which describe how the branch ID information i= s carried with the IOAM DEX header and passed to the downstream nodes.

In the data export postcards, the branch ID is still= encoded with the node ID fields, as Frank suggested earlier.   <= o:p>

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-multic= ast-telemetry/

 

Please review the draft and provide feedbacks. Thank= s!

 

Haoyu

 

From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> O= n Behalf Of Haoyu Song
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 10:42 AM
To: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>; Michael McBride <= ;michael.mcbride@futurewei.com>; ippm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ippm] Multicast telemetry

 

Hi Tianran,

 

Please see the inline reply.

 

Haoyu

 

From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Tianran Zhou
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 11:57 PM
To: Michael McBride <michael.mcbride@futurewei.com>; ippm@ietf..org
Subject: Re: [ippm] Multicast telemetry

 

Hi Michael,=

 

Thank you very much fo= r bringing this interesting topic and the update to the mailing list.<= /o:p>

I have several questio= ns after reading the document:

  1. What’s your assumption for the solution on the multicast tree topolog= y, known or unknown? If known, we know the node sequence, the branch node. = I am not sure if we need to take the branch information or not, probably no= t. If unknown, how to identify the branch node and “We just need to configure the branch node to export the po= stcard and refresh the IOAM header and data.”(in section 4.2)

 

HS> There’s no assumption on whether the mu= lticast tree topology is known or unknown. If it’s known, either this= is known by different entities from the monitor or you still want to verif= y it from the real monitoring results. If it’s unknown, we can still configure the telemetry behavior to all the node. When in ope= ration, if a node actually becomes a branch node, it will follow the config= ured telemetry behavior.

 

  1. Section 4.1, you propose the way to use branch node ID plus an index as the= branch ID. Did you consider multiple trees in the network and one node is = just in multiple trees? How to encode the index? What’s the differenc= e to the node ID + interface ID?

 

HS> The branch I= D is only valid per multicast tree instance. If a node is a branch node for= multiple multicast trees, each instance can have its own branch ID set.

The most compact wa= y to encode the index is simply numbering the interface. What you said (usi= ng node ID + i/f ID) can also differentiate the branches, but it has so= me issues: the i/f ID might be too long, making the resulting branch ID very different from the original node ID; t= he branch IDs are not consecutive numbers, making it difficult to correlate= the branches and identify missing branches.     

 

  1. Also the section 4.1, as shown in figure 1, each node need to export the br= anch ID which is actually belongs to the preceding node. How to bring the p= receding node information to the next hop?

 

HS> This is a good observation. Thank you for cat= ch it. In the earlier version, we consider to augment/modify the IOAM DEX h= eader to include the branch ID field. In this new version, we consider to m= ove it to the node data field. You are right, we cannot pass this information to the next node. I think to amend = this, we can make this field an optional field in the DEX header. We need t= o give this more thought.

 

As this is an informat= ional document,  but right now it contains some normative part IMO. I = have great interest on this work. What’s your consequent plan?

 

HS> Our goal is to try the best to comply with th= e existing standard proposals such as IOAM Trace and IOAM DEX and propose s= olutions for different multicast techniques. So far it seems possible to re= alize that without introducing fundamental changes. This is still a working document and we welcome all contributions= .. 

 

Thanks,

Tianran

 

From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael McBride
Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2020 5:47 AM
To: ippm@ietf.org
Subject: [ippm] Multicast telemetry

 

Hello,

 

We didn’t make it on the agenda for next week,= which is fine, but did want to raise awareness of draft-song-multicast-tel= emetry-02 which we updated last month. Among other edits, we included Frank= ’s comments, from Singapore, where he suggested encoding the branch identifier in the existing node ID data field. Please = give it a read and let’s discuss on the list:

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/d= raft-song-multicast-telemetry/

 

thanks,

mike

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[10.90.43.46]) by mx06.telecomitalia.it () with SMTP id 05.EB.21296.97C6D8E5; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 08:17:29 +0200 (CEST) From: Cociglio Mauro To: "Ackermann, Michael" , "nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com" , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" CC: 'Riccardo Sisto' , Nilo Massimo , Giuseppe Fioccola , "Bulgarella Fabio (Guest)" , Rob Hamilton Thread-Topic: [ippm] R: Virtual IETF 107 Meeting Minutes and Video uploaded Thread-Index: AQHWDEeVYOiviP/itEmTUyas/7kTT6hut1eA Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 06:17:29 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1341276584.1424573.1586199401894@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: it-IT, en-US Content-Language: it-IT X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [82.54.216.106] x-ti-disclaimer: ADBanner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_d096d21d103b46b39bed92fb6752bcb3TELMBXD14BA020telecomit_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: 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([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AlOUc5CH-H1I for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 01:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx05.telecomitalia.it (mx05.telecomitalia.it [156.54.232.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06F5F3A0D02 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 01:25:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=telecomitalia.it; s=selector1; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; i=@telecomitalia.it; t=1586334308; x=2450247908; h=MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID:Subject:To; bh=+mlAhLW8P+lyMtYFGwW0ALskckVxMz9520C14qL2k3E=; b=ZbMfZJMqkj1TSTw++roJMmicapa81xej3t2kbDrMMA3Nb8xJqRCkb0NgsHaEE/kt L+r4Nm8jdy9MJgkpFzuRp/ahu5DhGUqVW0ExxwCWEukEMnaLOx0TsGfW4BC1zDnw hEETneAuFzCBDQvYbTU5OIX3O/VwT3ZRZN+6cr8ppgaF44XJnAsKnhL6C1EFgp13 A+xD+0KY7xRlgZ+VbRcJLGK74kAX+3YYQKuLuANwjLT0L7ExqaQHzi7R6u2n4tBH 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x-ti-disclaimer: ADBanner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3ca3b5aae01d4650a3451639268b3f1eTELMBXD14BA020telecomit_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrDKsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXCFaXtrZvS1Rtn0H+R32LZD3mLNXNWMFk0 Naxgtuh58I7Z4tLBj+wWPQu4Hdg8Jh9ZwOzRcuQtq8eSJT+ZPFqenWQLYIlqYLRJzMvLL0ks SVVISS1OtlVyySxOzknMzE0tUnB0cQJKphYpKWSm2CqZKSkU5CQmp+am5pXYKiUWFKTmpSjZ cSlgABugssw8hdS85PyUzLx0WyXPYH9dCwtTS11DJbvA0tTiknyF3NTi4sT09Mx8hYSLIhnX 9z9gL7iSXPF8wQXWBsbjkV2MnBwSAiYS877PZe5i5OIQEljFKLH44D9mkASbgJnEmS3P2EBs EQFliTlLF7OD2MwCu5klnqwLBLGFBQIlzk5rZoWoCZO4u6SVpYuRA8jWk7h6LQXEZBFQkZhz CGwKL1D12tebmUBsRgFZiQm7FzFCTBSXeDH9BDvEOQISS/acZ4awRSVePv7HCmEbSGxduo8F wlaUePFtIRuELSlx+PAmNpBVzAL5Eq+/lEGsEpQ4OfMJywRG4VlINsxCqJqFpAqiREdiwe5P bBC2tsSyha+ZYewzBx4zIYsvYGRfxSiaW2FgqleSmpOanJ+bWZKYk5mol1myiRGcXnRFdzBu W/FG7xAjEwfjIUYJDmYlEV7vpt44Id6UxMqq1KL8+KLSnNTiQ4w+wBCayCwlmpwPTHB5JfGG pmam5sZGZqYGpmaWOISVxHmndgDNEkgHpqfs1NSC1CKYcUwcnFINTFHuS5/P6/Jfb5j1+Gr6 uxIex/+PGf/sU69jXVn3Jbt+z3Vdjo3eig8UF037wzz7sd5n7hoRZrefHYbPOZXfvVZnWLnn t8vqp8rr3VWt2FZ2vbY6eml2RX238dZlidc+hIRqVDw84ZKodzNWqPwL5+ZKoc5H1Y56zgrh HG3mJzdUxQQtCVmw+PS8J915Vu3LQ+ruCfC80L/7Zf3rspl3Wfh1j1Vov6t0t0/Q4/Oov9tx VOSG1Olrsoqv2ctVNn7/ULum+7/8zS9Nh9Vqdt+s7kt7kvR7un5Qxo2skt/RB0v0ZSd0ruku rFYS6Tc0n+voFiJ27tHiB2xWff0eNsrXMs1n7mZiZPVWeK2jVb1FiaU4I9FQi7moOBEA6BrX dc8DAAA= Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2020 08:25:14 -0000 --_000_3ca3b5aae01d4650a3451639268b3f1eTELMBXD14BA020telecomit_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear QUIC WG Members. We submitted to IPPM WG a draft where we described a new 2 bit packet loss m= ethodology (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements-= 01). The measurement of packet loss is under discussion in QUIC WG and our draft= introduces two alternatives about it. The first one is a spin-bit dependent signal and uses a single bit. The seco= nd one, described in the following linked slides, is a standalone solution b= ased on a two bits loss signal and on alternate marking (RFC8321). This last methodology improves, in our opinion, the algorithm proposed by Or= ange and Akamai described in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ferrieuxhamch= aoui-quic-lossbits-03. The 2 bits are the sQuare bit (Q-bit) and the Reflection square bit (R-bit). The Q-bit doesn't change from the Ferrieux-Hamchaoui draft but the R-bit sub= stitutes the L-bit. This avoids the L-bit dependence from an internal protocol variable, a probl= em raised in the last QUIC interim meeting. You can find the slides, we prepared for the IPPM interim meeting, at the fo= llowing link: https://github.com/ietf-ippm/meeting-materials/blob/aa486f7ead= 28b9f55c5ef499e5c9ed33ab06daf9/ietf107-virtual/Slides/07-spinbit-measurement= s.pdf Comments and suggestions are always welcome. Of course we are available to present our proposals in the next QUIC WG meet= ing or to arrange a Webex side meeting if needed. Best regards. Mauro, Fabio, Giuseppe, Massimo and Riccardo _____________________ Mauro Cociglio TIM - CT.TA.EI Via G. Reiss Romoli, 274 10148 - Torino (Italy) Tel.: +390112285028 Mobile: +393357669751 _____________________ Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle pers= one indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dalla= conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abbia= te ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di darne= immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione, G= razie. This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged i= nformation intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, print= ing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended reci= pient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sender= by return e-mail, Thanks. Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =E8 necessario. --_000_3ca3b5aae01d4650a3451639268b3f1eTELMBXD14BA020telecomit_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear= QUIC WG Members.

 

We su= bmitted to IPPM WG a draft where we described a new 2 bit packet loss method= ology (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements-01= ).

The measurement of packet loss is under discussion= in QUIC WG and our draft introduces two alternatives about it.

The first one is a spin-bit dependent signal and uses a single bit. The sec= ond one, described in the following linked slides, is a standalone = ;solution based on a two bits loss signal and on alternate marking (RFC8321)= .

This last methodology improves, in our opinion, the algorithm proposed by Orange and Akamai described= in https://too= ls.ietf.org/html/draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-quic-lossbits-03<= /u>.<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#212121">

=  

The= 2 bits are the sQuare bit (Q-bit) and the Reflection square bit (R-bit).

The= Q-bit doesn’t change from the Ferrieux-Hamchaoui draft but the R-bit= substitutes the L-bit.

This= avoids the L-bit dependence from an internal protocol variable, a problem r= aised in the last QUIC interim meeting.

=  

You c= an find the slides, we prepared for the IPPM interim meeting, at the followi= ng link: https://git= hub.com/ietf-ippm/meeting-materials/blob/aa486f7ead28b9f55c5ef499e5c9ed33ab0= 6daf9/ietf107-virtual/Slides/07-spinbit-measurements.pdf

=  

Comme= nts and suggestions are always welcome.

=  

Of co= urse we are available to present our proposals in the next QUIC WG meeting o= r to arrange a Webex side meeting if needed.

=  

Best regards.

 

Mauro, Fabio, Giusep= pe, Massimo and Riccardo

 

 

__________= ___________

Mauro Coci= glio

TIM - CT.TA.EI=

Via G. Rei= ss Romoli, 274

10148 - To= rino (Italy)

Tel.: += ;390112285028

Mobile: &#= 43;393357669751

__________= ___________

 

 

Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle= persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante d= alla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora a= bbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di da= rne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione= , Grazie.

This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privil= eged information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying,= printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intende= d recipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the s= ender by return e-mail, Thanks.

Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non è necessa= rio.
--_000_3ca3b5aae01d4650a3451639268b3f1eTELMBXD14BA020telecomit_-- From nobody Wed Apr 8 12:44:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BA143A15A3 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 12:44:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.589 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.589 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D7GiFUtqoA9A for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 12:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x32c.google.com (mail-wm1-x32c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D13C3A0FE3 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 2020 12:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x32c.google.com with SMTP id z6so862876wml.2 for ; Wed, 08 Apr 2020 12:44:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=unOYm0qh2C+gMUb7xc10r42M0zHpj/xo2beiz5fUymY=; b=MNtXKrAVQhZ5Xi4paOWqVODvkpakcaMDte0FDN/HuraeHwrxa6tlG1VMdaEvW5R8Ta yjvVYzPycoyRxPPkvEVU0LhVv6NT4moMnDaa/F3yEMakJtVwv5vNBP6VyX811Axthxh9 0YAoWFqYtIpIYQCAQCV902Ohr0ozh5ucEhmPiMdbjpbX/sr1ycGcISqkG4+CaDv2JIsR zUpCTCJvrJHpyptoI1xF1uLNEYpWv3ohGS74naR4QkslVFxmu4dkb3q3okparE1Z0JC2 7TGiTOmH8Te6oox2kn61hzbg4JcUcVSUQI3xH55gp7TtM+5vh5REQSnJKsQVpiKWZSG0 Qd0g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=unOYm0qh2C+gMUb7xc10r42M0zHpj/xo2beiz5fUymY=; b=G3c4bJg2MaoI7kY/C5wvxmySd40UuEfVmtU/Bhu6iv8YfbZg/OgisbmoVg7LzLZ4Hg DDFaH5JLp7+4ZaErtCG23gNGVQ9VIolzAknKEgnRcyqeEIHzorGYx6zAN8c5FdQO09B7 KrnAQIA3k1ctezb6eSLadLliBEkeJXA3Gj8YQxCWtjYeXztuMmhWkNVqmSYveqqdEweH axgH6DqVS2lF8XjDBOvXs/zElURFkg+q71Elp35YWexUidMjEI3TD2fFlCXhhHGyPQw2 FlQlIVVjEDicMNTdn3X0HD4nML3KPJJj/s+C1imOAlFTjTz3q92Bnyxf2L6yN2I4jFeQ fPjg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuY8m4Sb6uasGzPlkIKHNIyXqOwMmmw85MylpLAn6VWSeRFMll7/ FYmUwSlkq1n4Cw0O1RWy05T/BYq9pD1TOQ5jIePnDQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypI5T6e894IrZHERa2BsbcUfBOuoVSWySZe2cpEIRoNX4wEC0XnNnQJ5y7yRK4iqmZ+HAW42+0Jx8OTRg62YnfA= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:2007:: with SMTP id g7mr6197198wmg.70.1586375051573; Wed, 08 Apr 2020 12:44:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3ca3b5aae01d4650a3451639268b3f1e@TELMBXD14BA020.telecomitalia.local> In-Reply-To: <3ca3b5aae01d4650a3451639268b3f1e@TELMBXD14BA020.telecomitalia.local> From: Ian Swett Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 15:43:59 -0400 Message-ID: To: Cociglio Mauro Cc: "quic@ietf.org" , "Lubashev, Igor" , "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" , "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" , Riccardo Sisto , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006e648605a2ccb9d0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Apr 2020 19:44:15 -0000 --0000000000006e648605a2ccb9d0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for sharing this. From my perspective, this is an improvement upon the previous proposal in terms of robustness. This design feels very similar to the spin bit, and seems trivial to implement, which are also nice properties. Also, QUIC doesn't really have retransmissions, so the 'R bit' name always made me a bit uncomfortable. I'm not saying QUIC should adopt this yet, but I'd be interested in seeing a privacy analysis completed for it. Ian On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 4:25 AM Cociglio Mauro wrote: > Dear QUIC WG Members. > > > > We submitted to IPPM WG a draft where we described a new 2 bit packet los= s > methodology ( > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements-01). > > *The measurement of packet loss is under discussion in QUIC WG and our > draft introduces two alternatives about it.* > > *T**he first one is a spin-bit dependent signal and uses a single bit. > The second one, described in the following linked slides, is a > standalone solution based on a two bits loss signal and on alternate > marking (RFC8321)..* > > *This last methodology **improves, in our opinion, the algorithm proposed > by Orange and Akamai described in* *https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fer= rieuxhamchaoui-quic-lossbits-03 > **.= * > > > > *The 2 bits are the sQuare bit (Q-bit) and the Reflection square bit > (R-bit).* > > *The Q-bit doesn=E2=80=99t change from the Ferrieux-Hamchaoui draft but t= he R-bit > substitutes the L-bit.* > > *This avoids the L-bit dependence from an internal protocol variable, a > problem raised in the last QUIC interim meeting.* > > > > You can find the slides, we prepared for the IPPM interim meeting, at the > following link: > https://github.com/ietf-ippm/meeting-materials/blob/aa486f7ead28b9f55c5ef= 499e5c9ed33ab06daf9/ietf107-virtual/Slides/07-spinbit-measurements.pdf > > > > Comments and suggestions are always welcome. > > > > Of course we are available to present our proposals in the next QUIC WG > meeting or to arrange a Webex side meeting if needed. > > > > Best regards. > > > > Mauro, Fabio, Giuseppe, Massimo and Riccardo > > > > > > _____________________ > > Mauro Cociglio > > TIM - CT.TA.EI > > Via G. Reiss Romoli, 274 > > 10148 - Torino (Italy) > > Tel.: +390112285028 <+39%20011%20228%205028> > > Mobile: +393357669751 <+39%20335%20766%209751> > > _____________________ > > > > > > Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle > persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante > dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualo= ra > abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati d= i > darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua > distruzione, Grazie. > > * This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain > privileged information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, > copying, printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not > the intended recipient, please delete this message and any attachments an= d > advise the sender by return e-mail, Thanks. * > > *Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =C3=A8 necessario.* > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > --0000000000006e648605a2ccb9d0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for sharing this.=C2=A0 From my perspective, this i= s an improvement upon the previous proposal in terms of robustness.=C2=A0= =C2=A0This design feels very similar to the spin bit, and seems trivial to = implement, which are also nice properties.

Also, QUIC do= esn't really have retransmissions, so the 'R bit' name always m= ade me a bit uncomfortable.

I'm not saying QUI= C should adopt this yet, but I'd be interested in seeing a privacy anal= ysis completed for it.

Ian

On Wed, Apr 8, 202= 0 at 4:25 AM Cociglio Mauro <mauro.cociglio=3D40telecomitalia.it@dmarc.ietf.= org> wrote:

Dear Q= UIC WG Members.

=C2=A0

We sub= mitted to IPPM WG a draft where we described a new 2 bit packet loss method= ology (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cfb-ippm-spi= nbit-measurements-01).

The measurement of packet loss is under discussion in QU= IC WG and our draft introduces two=C2=A0alternatives about it.

The=C2= =A0first one=C2=A0is a spin-bit=C2=A0dependent signal and uses a single bit. The se= cond one,=C2=A0described in the following linked slides, is a standalone=C2= =A0solution based on a two bits loss signal and on alternate marking (RFC83= 21)..

This last methodology=C2=A0improves, in our opinion,=C2=A0the algorithm proposed by Orange and Akamai described= in=C2=A0http= s://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-quic-lossbits-03= .

=C2=A0

The 2 bits are t= he sQuare bit (Q-bit) and the Reflection square bit (R-bit).<= /span>

The Q-bit doesn= =E2=80=99t change from the Ferrieux-Hamchaoui draft but the R-bit substitut= es the L-bit.

This avoids the = L-bit dependence from an internal protocol variable, a problem raised in th= e last QUIC interim meeting.

=C2=A0

You ca= n find the slides, we prepared for the IPPM interim meeting, at the followi= ng link: https://github.com/ietf-ippm/meeting-materials/blob/aa486f7ead28b9f= 55c5ef499e5c9ed33ab06daf9/ietf107-virtual/Slides/07-spinbit-measurements.pd= f=

=C2=A0

Commen= ts and suggestions are always welcome.

=C2=A0

Of cou= rse we are available to present our proposals in the next QUIC WG meeting o= r to arrange a Webex side meeting if needed.

=C2=A0

Best regards.<= u>

=C2=A0<= /span>

Mauro, Fabio, Giusepp= e, Massimo and Riccardo

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

_____________________

Mauro Cociglio

TIM - CT.TA.EI

Via G. Reiss Romoli, 274<= /p>

10148 - Torino (Italy)

Tel.: +390112285028

Mobile: +393357669751<= /span>

_____________________

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle= persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante = dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora= abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di= darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruz= ione, Grazie.

This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privi= leged information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copyin= g, printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the inte= nded recipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise t= he sender by return e-mail, Thanks.

Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =C3=A8 nece= ssario.
=09
_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
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63.35.41596.D7B4F8E5; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 18:21:17 +0200 (CEST) From: Cociglio Mauro To: Ian Swett CC: "quic@ietf.org" , "Lubashev, Igor" , "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" , "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" , "Riccardo Sisto" , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Thread-Topic: [EXT] Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) Thread-Index: AdYNfRCPTsr9cJpyT2q4st79g+H+ngAUDfyAACwsE6A= Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 16:21:16 +0000 Message-ID: <1889f403ee0240c0bdab4daf656d6f1d@TELMBXD14BA020.telecomitalia.local> References: <3ca3b5aae01d4650a3451639268b3f1e@TELMBXD14BA020.telecomitalia.local> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: it-IT, en-US Content-Language: it-IT X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.171.40.186] x-ti-disclaimer: ADBanner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1889f403ee0240c0bdab4daf656d6f1dTELMBXD14BA020telecomit_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: 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SMTP id b6mr517404ljj.237.1586453309475; Thu, 09 Apr 2020 10:28:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3ca3b5aae01d4650a3451639268b3f1e@TELMBXD14BA020.telecomitalia.local> <1889f403ee0240c0bdab4daf656d6f1d@TELMBXD14BA020.telecomitalia.local> In-Reply-To: <1889f403ee0240c0bdab4daf656d6f1d@TELMBXD14BA020.telecomitalia.local> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 12:28:03 -0500 Message-ID: To: Cociglio Mauro Cc: Ian Swett , "quic@ietf.org" , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" , "Lubashev, Igor" , "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" , "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" , Riccardo Sisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f6ce9205a2def13b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [EXT] Re: New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 17:28:38 -0000 --000000000000f6ce9205a2def13b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 18 On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 11:22 AM Cociglio Mauro wrote: > Thanks Ian for your email. > > We intend to proceed with the privacy analysis, which is the same as that > of the *Ferrieux-Hamchaoui draft for the part of the Q-bit (and the R-bit > should be very similar to Q-bit in terms of privacy).* > > R-bit stands for =E2=80=9CReflected square bit=E2=80=9D, not for =E2=80= =9CRetransmission bit=E2=80=9D, but > of course the letter can be changed. > If you need to change the letter, "S-bit" for "Square bit" would be one of the best field names I've seen in a while (sooner or later, every QUIC developer will ask, "what's a square bit?"). I'm mostly serious, and only partially bike-shedding. Best regards and happy Easter. > The same to you! Spencer > > > Mauro > > > > _____________________ > > Mauro Cociglio > > TIM - CT.TA.EI > > Via G. Reiss Romoli, 274 > > 10148 - Torino (Italy) > > Tel.: +390112285028 > > Mobile: +393357669751 > > _____________________ > > > > > > *Da:* Ian Swett > *Inviato:* mercoled=C3=AC 8 aprile 2020 21:44 > *A:* Cociglio Mauro > *Cc:* quic@ietf.org; Lubashev, Igor ; > alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com; isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; Riccardo > Sisto ; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) < > ippm@ietf.org> > *Oggetto:* [EXT] Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement > (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) > > > > Thanks for sharing this. From my perspective, this is an improvement upo= n > the previous proposal in terms of robustness. This design feels very > similar to the spin bit, and seems trivial to implement, which are also > nice properties. > > > > Also, QUIC doesn't really have retransmissions, so the 'R bit' name alway= s > made me a bit uncomfortable. > > > > I'm not saying QUIC should adopt this yet, but I'd be interested in seein= g > a privacy analysis completed for it. > > > > Ian > > > > On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 4:25 AM Cociglio Mauro 40telecomitalia.it@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Dear QUIC WG Members. > > > > We submitted to IPPM WG a draft where we described a new 2 bit packet los= s > methodology ( > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements-01). > > *The measurement of packet loss is under discussion in QUIC WG and our > draft introduces two alternatives about it.* > > *T**he first one is a spin-bit dependent signal and uses a single bit. > The second one, described in the following linked slides, is a > standalone solution based on a two bits loss signal and on alternate > marking (RFC8321)..* > > *This last methodology **improves, in our opinion, the algorithm proposed > by Orange and Akamai described in* *https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fer= rieuxhamchaoui-quic-lossbits-03 > **.= * > > > > *The 2 bits are the sQuare bit (Q-bit) and the Reflection square bit > (R-bit).* > > *The Q-bit doesn=E2=80=99t change from the Ferrieux-Hamchaoui draft but t= he R-bit > substitutes the L-bit.* > > *This avoids the L-bit dependence from an internal protocol variable, a > problem raised in the last QUIC interim meeting.* > > > > You can find the slides, we prepared for the IPPM interim meeting, at the > following link: > https://github.com/ietf-ippm/meeting-materials/blob/aa486f7ead28b9f55c5ef= 499e5c9ed33ab06daf9/ietf107-virtual/Slides/07-spinbit-measurements.pdf > > > > Comments and suggestions are always welcome. > > > > Of course we are available to present our proposals in the next QUIC WG > meeting or to arrange a Webex side meeting if needed. > > > > Best regards. > > > > Mauro, Fabio, Giuseppe, Massimo and Riccardo > > > > > > _____________________ > > Mauro Cociglio > > TIM - CT.TA.EI > > Via G. Reiss Romoli, 274 > > 10148 - Torino (Italy) > > Tel.: +390112285028 <+39%20011%20228%205028> > > Mobile: +393357669751 <+39%20335%20766%209751> > > _____________________ > > > > > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > > Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle > persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante > dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualo= ra > abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati d= i > darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua > distruzione, Grazie. > > * This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain > privileged information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, > copying, printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not > the intended recipient, please delete this message and any attachments an= d > advise the sender by return e-mail, Thanks. * > > *Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =C3=A8 necessario.* > --000000000000f6ce9205a2def13b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
18

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 11:22 AM Cocigli= o Mauro <mauro.cociglio=3D40telecomitalia.it@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Thanks= Ian for your email.

We int= end to proceed with the privacy analysis, which is the same as that of the Ferrieux-Hamchaoui draft for the= part of the Q-bit (and the R-bit should be very similar to Q-bit =C2=A0in = terms of privacy).

R-bit = stands for =E2=80=9CReflected square bit=E2=80=9D, not for =E2=80=9CRetrans= mission bit=E2=80=9D, but of course the letter can be changed.


If you need to change the letter= , "S-bit" for "Square bit" would be one of the best fie= ld=C2=A0names I've seen in a while=C2=A0(sooner or later, every QUIC de= veloper will ask, "what's a square bit?").

I'm mostly serious, and only partially bike-shedding.=C2=A0

Best r= egards and happy Easter.


=
The same to you!

Spencer
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Mauro<= u>

=C2=A0

_____________________

Mauro Cociglio

TIM - CT.TA.EI

Via G. Reiss Romoli, 274<= /p>

10148 - Torino (Italy)

Tel.: +390112285028

Mobile: +393357669751

_____________________

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Da: Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.or= g>
Inviato: mercoled=C3=AC 8 aprile 2020 21:44
A: Cociglio Mauro <mauro.cociglio@telecomitalia.it>
Cc: quic@ietf.org= ; Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com; isabelle.hamchaoui@o= range.com; Riccardo Sisto <riccardo.sisto@polito.it>; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
Oggetto: [EXT] Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cf= b-ippm-spinbit-measurements)

=C2=A0

Thanks for sharing this.=C2=A0 From my perspective, = this is an improvement upon the previous proposal in terms of robustness.= =C2=A0=C2=A0This design feels very similar to the spin bit, and seems trivi= al to implement, which are also nice properties.

=C2=A0

Also, QUIC doesn't really have retransmissions, = so the 'R bit' name always made me a bit uncomfortable.

=C2=A0

I'm not saying QUIC should adopt this yet, but I= 'd be interested in seeing a privacy analysis completed for it.<= u>

=C2=A0

Ian

=C2=A0

On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 4:25 AM Cociglio Mauro <ma= uro.cociglio=3D40telecomitalia.it@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:<= /p>

Dear Q= UIC WG Members.

=C2=A0=

We sub= mitted to IPPM WG a draft where we described a new 2 bit packet loss method= ology (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cfb-ippm-spi= nbit-measurements-01).

The measurement of packet loss = is under discussion in QUIC WG and our draft introduces two=C2=A0alternativ= es about it.

The=C2=A0first one=C2=A0is a spin-bit=C2=A0dependent signal and uses a single bit. The second one,=C2=A0described in the follow= ing linked slides, is a standalone=C2=A0solution based on a two bits loss s= ignal and on alternate marking (RFC8321)..

This last methodology=C2=A0= improves, in our opinion,=C2=A0the algorithm proposed by Orange and Akamai described= in=C2=A0http= s://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-quic-lossbits-03= .

=C2=A0=

The 2 bits are t= he sQuare bit (Q-bit) and the Reflection square bit (R-bit).

The Q-bit doesn= =E2=80=99t change from the Ferrieux-Hamchaoui draft but the R-bit substitutes the L-bit.

This avoids the = L-bit dependence from an internal protocol variable, a problem raised in the last QUIC interim meeting.

=C2=A0=

You ca= n find the slides, we prepared for the IPPM interim meeting, at the followi= ng link: https://github.com/ietf-ippm/meeting-materials/blob/aa486f7ead28b9f= 55c5ef499e5c9ed33ab06daf9/ietf107-virtual/Slides/07-spinbit-measurements.pd= f

=C2=A0=

Commen= ts and suggestions are always welcome.

=C2=A0=

Of cou= rse we are available to present our proposals in the next QUIC WG meeting o= r to arrange a Webex side meeting if needed.

=C2=A0=

Best regards.<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

Mauro, Fabio, Giusepp= e, Massimo and Riccardo

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

_____________________

Mauro Cociglio

TIM - CT.TA.EI

Via G. Reiss Romoli, 274

10148 - Torino (Italy)

Tel.: +390112285028<= u>

Mobile: +393357669751<= u>

_____________________

=C2=A0


ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm=

Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle= persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante = dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora= abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di= darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruz= ione, Grazie.

This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privi= leged information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copyin= g, printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the inte= nded recipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise t= he sender by return e-mail, Thanks.

Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =C3=A8 nece= ssario.
=09
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[68.193.210.25]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 145sm22113777qke.126.2020.04.09.11.16.02 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 09 Apr 2020 11:16:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 14:15:52 -0400 From: Dmitri Tikhonov To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Cc: Cociglio Mauro , Riccardo Sisto , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" , "Lubashev, Igor" , "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" , "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" , Ian Swett , "quic@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20200409181550.GA17863@lubuntu> Mail-Followup-To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Cociglio Mauro , Riccardo Sisto , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" , "Lubashev, Igor" , "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" , "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" , Ian Swett , "quic@ietf.org" References: <3ca3b5aae01d4650a3451639268b3f1e@TELMBXD14BA020.telecomitalia.local> <1889f403ee0240c0bdab4daf656d6f1d@TELMBXD14BA020.telecomitalia.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [EXT] Re: New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 18:16:08 -0000 On Thu, Apr 09, 2020 at 12:28:03PM -0500, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > If you need to change the letter, "S-bit" for "Square bit" would be one of > the best field names I've seen in a while (sooner or later, every QUIC > developer will ask, "what's a square bit?"). > > I'm mostly serious, and only partially bike-shedding. "S" is already taken in the QUIC packet header: it's the Spin Bit [1]. A possible alternative to "Q" is "W," as in "wave" (the square wave). - Dmitri. 1. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-transport-27#section-17.3 From nobody Thu Apr 9 13:10:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ADC83A0D6F for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 13:08:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=litespeedtech-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BJzEWVf8Q_cA for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 13:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x729.google.com (mail-qk1-x729.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::729]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1DD623A0D6B for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2020 13:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x729.google.com with SMTP id m67so5375742qke.12 for ; Thu, 09 Apr 2020 13:08:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=litespeedtech-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references :mime-version:content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding :in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=7e6/62B+h53qeyE9d96OpUkPgNNRBq4n3ulkjqSG3fo=; b=tKaYZyq45d7uGNBtvT4E7I1kdHMn10FeA9Vigqp/OCAMeIQ1aqS1qhsTEQ/3+NEdJS 7XexauGzkTH0YZxe8UHLGkbzBn6rqSa7/kFFT1s7ZTUlPnZq9Qw0TYNuIjv04PA8KR5n z6M9KnbaCAPsW6mwmwtcM4O54kmmy22T92/UXMOSX+Mxr7TbszL9VulsTiVoHRpZBqOH PLWITjhxuKVi2SVR//0mb6jksqgoePqZj5SSdgnDZCsk55OYKL411ctrqdHNmrWD8lix ld/aW24wPq9LEB64UVVIKx6Vddy14jnB5VE5fz9xT6my/wY77jEi60pmF8Xs24sMUey3 6cpA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:content-disposition :content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=7e6/62B+h53qeyE9d96OpUkPgNNRBq4n3ulkjqSG3fo=; b=RElLej8ESZMC4RXpyX5Tq28tTf6+I86eUtNBVxbZQwSKiN0lUX+rVxwpbo82TUeBsy u5aDMtzYHmSdCnXR4aCi3jyeBb/YnQ8jh9zij4a2PeAMg7WFnIswPt9YqwtwALKXGYlI v9oqc9msDMGuz6MzNgJ2yR4lTxKB9M9YUfSD2zdw4EfUCk3G6WIi6nILWOACzzb1mQjf 9IrHR2UCGfuyAvC/z8oH68e7WdaRtoiNC/hXN0uAc5Pvq0xq9sWr0kHK9+Tt7WmG7IC/ jFb49ppaFHivoLdC5stjfMUuiFt+lbPrDGyq7PnlEWvfWHZblp0CHIlA0JaygACAUJta KwWA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZ58wimMcivY44IoSWz/SuLjJSL4Sb+srYHl2P3d36AfN/wlP2B upMBusfQNutiehAVui8stP6s0g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypK5EN3jv4WNX97/3R1Z0IuN88j57BhBuPz2ed5ZhuBbKMXtSL25CgBGi0d8QHOwW5aG+ne0BA== X-Received: by 2002:a37:7744:: with SMTP id s65mr643675qkc.54.1586462900930; Thu, 09 Apr 2020 13:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lubuntu (ool-44c1d219.dyn.optonline.net. [68.193.210.25]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w27sm2973179qtc.18.2020.04.09.13.08.19 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 09 Apr 2020 13:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 16:08:12 -0400 From: Dmitri Tikhonov To: Cociglio Mauro Cc: "quic@ietf.org" , Giuseppe Fioccola , "Bulgarella Fabio (Guest)" , "Lubashev, Igor" , "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" , "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" , Nilo Massimo , 'Riccardo Sisto' , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Message-ID: <20200409200811.GB17863@lubuntu> Mail-Followup-To: Cociglio Mauro , "quic@ietf.org" , Giuseppe Fioccola , "Bulgarella Fabio (Guest)" , "Lubashev, Igor" , "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" , "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" , Nilo Massimo , 'Riccardo Sisto' , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" References: <3ca3b5aae01d4650a3451639268b3f1e@TELMBXD14BA020.telecomitalia.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <3ca3b5aae01d4650a3451639268b3f1e@TELMBXD14BA020.telecomitalia.local> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 13:10:20 -0700 Subject: [ippm] Reflected Square can't measure downstream loss [Was: New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements)] X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2020 20:08:25 -0000 Hello, The proposed "Reflected Square" loss detection mechanism [1] is not an improvement over the existing "L-bit" mechanism [2] by Akamai and Orange. This is because the Reflected Square is missing a feature: it does not provide downstream loss information in all scenarios. To calculate downstream loss, the Reflected Square probe must be able to observe traffic in both directions. The problem with this is that the opposite flow may not go through the tapped node! This means that for these cases, such probe is useless as it cannot figure out whether the loss is upstream or downstream. Contrast this with an L-bit probe: Given a single flow, it measures upstream, downstream, and end-to-end loss. (Obviously, Reflected Square also can't measure end-to-end loss using a single flow.) The Reflected Square proposal is a severe degradation in functionality compared with the L-bit proposal. - Dmitri. 1. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements-01 2. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-quic-lossbits-03 On Wed, Apr 08, 2020 at 08:25:07AM +0000, Cociglio Mauro wrote: > Dear QUIC WG Members. > > We submitted to IPPM WG a draft where we described a new 2 bit packet loss methodology (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements-01). > The measurement of packet loss is under discussion in QUIC WG and our draft introduces two alternatives about it. > The first one is a spin-bit dependent signal and uses a single bit. The second one, described in the following linked slides, is a standalone solution based on a two bits loss signal and on alternate marking (RFC8321). > This last methodology improves, in our opinion, the algorithm proposed by Orange and Akamai described in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-quic-lossbits-03. > > The 2 bits are the sQuare bit (Q-bit) and the Reflection square bit (R-bit). > The Q-bit doesn't change from the Ferrieux-Hamchaoui draft but the R-bit substitutes the L-bit. > This avoids the L-bit dependence from an internal protocol variable, a problem raised in the last QUIC interim meeting. > > You can find the slides, we prepared for the IPPM interim meeting, at the following link: https://github.com/ietf-ippm/meeting-materials/blob/aa486f7ead28b9f55c5ef499e5c9ed33ab06daf9/ietf107-virtual/Slides/07-spinbit-measurements.pdf > > Comments and suggestions are always welcome. > > Of course we are available to present our proposals in the next QUIC WG meeting or to arrange a Webex side meeting if needed. > > Best regards. > > Mauro, Fabio, Giuseppe, Massimo and Riccardo > > > _____________________ > Mauro Cociglio > TIM - CT.TA.EI > Via G. Reiss Romoli, 274 > 10148 - Torino (Italy) > Tel.: +390112285028 > Mobile: +393357669751 > _____________________ > > > > Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione, Grazie. > > This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sender by return e-mail, Thanks. > > Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non è necessario. From nobody Fri Apr 10 04:13:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E66C13A20C1 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 04:13:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=guest.telecomitalia.it Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hZxxmDi1iBe2 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 04:13:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx06.telecomitalia.it (mx06.telecomitalia.it [156.54.232.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 220E53A20BE for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 04:13:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=guest.telecomitalia.it; s=selector1; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; i=@guest.telecomitalia.it; t=1586517192; x=2450430792; h=MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID:Subject:To; bh=6AtZKKv6F7on4wuiEHRbLjoIORrem+5YEmAC32Kenbs=; b=fP8bj3we+cAhzBe4JWhF5I8AUbBIGOCAAzJky5GFMfTXOhXHD9R5I6/dMDE39P7p b+cUqRiTG0cIkj+ssOqtBEgo7zSjhdRrTTLyBIC/hluA3QXiCAcsI78ntxREuGb7 q18jy4hD8XCREe+dsWIrManOnzCmo5OvyT9WHMebRKZVmBcBp8BLhxnTHpoNLApT 1snz5BbyVzRzv6fw/PJm75iKLU9EF12aNojvXIFViWrJ9n3hoAtjPcGf4BvtqwPS jZnoCHrC9GWsW848xLS61vRX4KClJ0GeGNkfawbzvBVM9jsC1G3Mn4W891JDLaQV GkjV8IfiDszID57+68Cseg==; X-AuditID: 0a5a2d16-99dff70000005330-25-5e9054c80141 Received: from TELMBXC12BA020.telecomitalia.local ( [10.90.43.46]) by mx06.telecomitalia.it () with SMTP id C6.C9.21296.8C4509E5; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 13:13:12 +0200 (CEST) From: "Bulgarella Fabio (Guest)" To: Ian Swett , Cociglio Mauro CC: "quic@ietf.org" , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" , "Lubashev, Igor" , "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" , "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" , "Riccardo Sisto" Thread-Topic: [EXT] Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) Thread-Index: AdYNfRCPTsr9cJpyT2q4st79g+H+ngAUDfyAAFbEnpY= Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:13:11 +0000 Message-ID: <1586517191911.10621@guest.telecomitalia.it> References: <3ca3b5aae01d4650a3451639268b3f1e@TELMBXD14BA020.telecomitalia.local>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: it-IT, en-US Content-Language: it-IT X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [188.219.222.222] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_158651719191110621guesttelecomitaliait_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrEIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXCFaWtp3siZEKcwbsjWhbLfshbPPz5ldGi qWEFs0XPg3fMFpcOfmS3WLh3DYtFzwJui5+3d7I7cHhMPrKA2ePEsiusHkuW/GTyaHl2ks3j 9MriANYoLpuU1JzMstQifbsErowrsxsZC/ZVVRy+s4K5gXF6ThcjJ4eEgInEjQ3b2LsYuTiE BFYxShxvbGXtYuTgYBPwkph9RxmkRkSgUmL6zGZWkBpmgU1MEit+zGIBSQgLpEk8+DqfEaIo XeLoqT5WCNtKYvPZ+WA2i4CqxMsVM9lBbF4BC4mLK9ZALZvGKPHlazvYIE6BQIljv3aDFTEK yEpM2L0IbCizgLjEi+kn2CEuFZBYsuc8M4QtKvHy8T9WCNtAYuvSfSwQtrLE6jvXWCF64yTu NCxiglgsKHFy5hOWCYwis5CMnYWkbBaSMoi4gcT7c/OZIWxtiWULX0PZ+hIbv5xlRBZfwMi+ ilE0t8LATK8kNSc1OT83syQxJzNRL7NkEyM4WnXFdjA+WP9G7xAjEwfjIUYJDmYlEV7vpt44 Id6UxMqq1KL8+KLSnNTiQ4zSHCxK4ryfovrjhATSE0tSs1NTC1KLYLJMHJxSDUzR0oceS87Z Mm/tjOwvK89dfbTUe+dvyc8BfQJHjh752bu75dhU/8NFTw4WLGv+7hr4TfQYxxehRYcSxfQF 5A/PuPumve4diwzXwVcx/rGTc6eeO7v57M7ULeWcl38uO3T14Bwz38Tm7RM2ztHUyLWP2fKv Oknx95z1l18sZ16ccy3nVorrTXPxxxsmW/w3ii3Vfqd9Yvr314cUm3bwNfCd+BURkui2RDxO ZuNaOx4ps+OPerYW+Wy1+3z+8a2TZa85vHye/T7xs7b7nNsl71RmXnEDwfm/ytYtZnxw7dGq 3a2vJh3ft4dLdubPT0mruGcY9fw9oDQ3lf/chs0zi7fu/Cbm9tjZuTBM5UXLwba1Yj5KLMUZ iYZazEXFiQDw4YFkRQMAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [EXT] Re: New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:13:19 -0000 --_000_158651719191110621guesttelecomitaliait_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Ian, I confirm that the implementation of our solution is pretty simple. Follows the link to our implementation in quic-go; the last two functions o= f linked source file handle the logic needed to process Q and R bits. https://github.com/fabiobulgarella/quic-go/blob/tim-pl2-qr/packet_packer.go Thanks and happy easter, Fabio B. Telecom Italia (TIM) ________________________________ Da: ippm per conto di Ian Swett Inviato: mercoled=EC 8 aprile 2020 21:43 A: Cociglio Mauro Cc: quic@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org); Lubashev, Igor; alexandre.= ferrieux@orange.com; isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; Riccardo Sisto Oggetto: [EXT] Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-= spinbit-measurements) Thanks for sharing this. From my perspective, this is an improvement upon = the previous proposal in terms of robustness. This design feels very simil= ar to the spin bit, and seems trivial to implement, which are also nice pro= perties. Also, QUIC doesn't really have retransmissions, so the 'R bit' name always = made me a bit uncomfortable. I'm not saying QUIC should adopt this yet, but I'd be interested in seeing = a privacy analysis completed for it. Ian On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 4:25 AM Cociglio Mauro > wrote: Dear QUIC WG Members. We submitted to IPPM WG a draft where we described a new 2 bit packet loss = methodology (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurement= s-01). The measurement of packet loss is under discussion in QUIC WG and our draft= introduces two alternatives about it. The first one is a spin-bit dependent signal and uses a single bit. The sec= ond one, described in the following linked slides, is a standalone solution= based on a two bits loss signal and on alternate marking (RFC8321).. This last methodology improves, in our opinion, the algorithm proposed by O= range and Akamai described in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ferrieuxham= chaoui-quic-lossbits-03. The 2 bits are the sQuare bit (Q-bit) and the Reflection square bit (R-bit)= . The Q-bit doesn=92t change from the Ferrieux-Hamchaoui draft but the R-bit = substitutes the L-bit. This avoids the L-bit dependence from an internal protocol variable, a prob= lem raised in the last QUIC interim meeting. You can find the slides, we prepared for the IPPM interim meeting, at the f= ollowing link: https://github.com/ietf-ippm/meeting-materials/blob/aa486f7e= ad28b9f55c5ef499e5c9ed33ab06daf9/ietf107-virtual/Slides/07-spinbit-measurem= ents.pdf Comments and suggestions are always welcome. Of course we are available to present our proposals in the next QUIC WG mee= ting or to arrange a Webex side meeting if needed. Best regards. Mauro, Fabio, Giuseppe, Massimo and Riccardo _____________________ Mauro Cociglio TIM - CT.TA.EI Via G. Reiss Romoli, 274 10148 - Torino (Italy) Tel.: +390112285028 Mobile: +393357669751 _____________________ [https://img.tim.it/sdr/maild/mail_dip_680x190_Banner_DISNEY_TIMVISION_LANC= IO_v2.jpg] Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle per= sone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dall= a conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abb= iate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di dar= ne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione= , Grazie. This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged = information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, pri= nting or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended r= ecipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sen= der by return e-mail, Thanks. Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =E8 necessario. _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --_000_158651719191110621guesttelecomitaliait_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Ian,

I confirm that the implementation of our solution is pretty simple.

Follows the link to our implementation in quic-go; the last two function= s of linked source file handle the logic needed to process Q and R bit= s.

https://github.com/fabiobulgarella/quic-go/blob/tim-pl2-qr/= packet_packer.go


Thanks and happy easter,


Fabio B.

Telecom Italia (TIM)



Da: ippm <ippm-bounces@i= etf.org> per conto di Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.o= rg>
Inviato: mercoled=EC 8 aprile 2020 21:43
A: Cociglio Mauro
Cc: quic@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org); Lubashev, Igor; ale= xandre.ferrieux@orange.com; isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; Riccardo Sisto Oggetto: [EXT] Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cf= b-ippm-spinbit-measurements)
 
Thanks for sharing this.  From my perspective, this i= s an improvement upon the previous proposal in terms of robustness. &n= bsp;This design feels very similar to the spin bit, and seems trivial to im= plement, which are also nice properties.

Also, QUIC doesn't really have retransmissions, so the 'R bit' name al= ways made me a bit uncomfortable.

I'm not saying QUIC should adopt this yet, but I'd be interested in se= eing a privacy analysis completed for it.

Ian

On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 4:25 AM Cocigl= io Mauro <mauro.cociglio=3D40telecomitalia.it@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:<= br>

Dear Q= UIC WG Members.

 

We sub= mitted to IPPM WG a draft where we described a new 2 bit packet loss method= ology (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cfb-ippm-spi= nbit-measurements-01).

The measurement of packet loss is under discussion in= QUIC WG and our draft introduces two alternatives about it.<= /em>

Th= e first one is a spin-bit dependent signal and uses a single bit. The se= cond one, described in the following linked slides, is a standalone&nb= sp;solution based on a two bits loss signal and on alternate marking (RFC83= 21)..

This last methodology improves, in our opinion, the algorithm proposed by Orange and Akamai described= in = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-quic-lossbits-03= .=

 

The 2 bits ar= e the sQuare bit (Q-bit) and the Reflection square bit (R-bit).

The Q-bit doe= sn=92t change from the Ferrieux-Hamchaoui draft but the R-bit substitutes t= he L-bit.

This avoids t= he L-bit dependence from an internal protocol variable, a problem raised in= the last QUIC interim meeting.

 

You ca= n find the slides, we prepared for the IPPM interim meeting, at the followi= ng link: https://github.com/ietf-ippm/meeting-materials/blob/aa486f7ead28b9f= 55c5ef499e5c9ed33ab06daf9/ietf107-virtual/Slides/07-spinbit-measurements.pd= f=

 

Commen= ts and suggestions are always welcome.

 

Of cou= rse we are available to present our proposals in the next QUIC WG meeting o= r to arrange a Webex side meeting if needed.

 

Best regards.<= u>

 <= /span>

Mauro, Fabio, Giusepp= e, Massimo and Riccardo

 

 

_____________________

Mauro Cociglio

TIM - CT.TA.EI

Via G. Reiss Romoli, 274<= /p>

10148 - Torino (Italy)

Tel.: +390112285028

Mobile: +393357669751

_____________________

 

 

Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle per= sone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dall= a conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abb= iate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di darne immediata comunicazione al mitt= ente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione, Grazie.

This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileg= ed information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, = printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intende= d recipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sender by return e-mail, Thanks= .

Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =E8 necessario.=
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ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=guest.telecomitalia.it Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OgdsGUkTwwgS for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 02:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx05.telecomitalia.it (mx05.telecomitalia.it [156.54.232.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D3F73A1B20 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 02:51:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=guest.telecomitalia.it; s=selector1; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; i=@guest.telecomitalia.it; t=1586512257; x=2450425857; h=MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID:Subject:To; bh=C4lqXm7DBDdtgQvzkyaHfXWEfMogQ0tko1w1Q40KCbs=; b=WkOy2Sf3NuBWKKF2WNKo/Y3lOujJ7Janaiy08NIJBSv+YPTqX8byHHhBMl2F4xAe Hhiwj79NdTnJypbScE7w/F0SVnrRS9qqjzfvvPIvBFFOEVMS9sZPpp0vbz2SaMVz 5CVRrMlLXX1AaPsM0VlSRfz5MoSyUmHWeOOXwI81sP8Sliyr98pZJXNfYgL/O2T3 DVFvl+FZK/n3BBXiuhymMjGLv6rdx5S6tW8KhkT+9R66vpQ2nFrrELbcXsjUcUTC Fn83e8B6UqwYYh+zZN73/NkVWDrblziSl9qzr3ZWEdSbu2fBmZMiSUpA6MeFBesO J0VEJoJr3L2gqOie3w+4lw==; X-AuditID: 0a5a2d15-f4fff7000000a27c-7c-5e904181af75 Received: from TELMBXD13BA020.telecomitalia.local ( [10.90.43.75]) by mx05.telecomitalia.it () with SMTP id C2.A2.41596.181409E5; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 11:50:57 +0200 (CEST) From: "Bulgarella Fabio (Guest)" To: Dmitri Tikhonov , Cociglio Mauro CC: "quic@ietf.org" , Giuseppe Fioccola , "Lubashev, Igor" , "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" , "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" , Nilo Massimo , 'Riccardo Sisto' , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Thread-Topic: [EXT] Reflected Square can't measure downstream loss [Was: New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements)] Thread-Index: AQHWDqqg8Fj+vHbqLUWk1YduWATgeKhyHJWG Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 09:50:56 +0000 Message-ID: <1586512256549.12734@guest.telecomitalia.it> References: <3ca3b5aae01d4650a3451639268b3f1e@TELMBXD14BA020.telecomitalia.local>, <20200409200811.GB17863@lubuntu> In-Reply-To: <20200409200811.GB17863@lubuntu> Accept-Language: it-IT, en-US Content-Language: it-IT X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [188.219.222.222] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrOIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXCFaXtrdvoOCHOYN1fNotlP+Qtvkxgs1gz ZwWTRVPDCmaLngfvmC0uHfzIbrFw7xoWi54F3BY/b+9kd+D0mHxkAbPHiWVXWD1ajrxl9Viy 5CeTx5Ntx5k9Wp6dZPM4vbI4gD2KyyYlNSezLLVI3y6BK2PXoslsBbd1Kzp3TGRrYDyo1sXI ySEhYCJx4M531i5GLg4hgVWMErte7WHqYuTgYBPwkph9RxnEFBEok9i3vA6khFlgCrPEti0f 2UAcYYGJjBKbN99mBHFEBCYxSlxbPYMZZKqIgJHElcmr2UBsFgFViS8v7rOA2LwCFhK3rmwH iwsJFEmsWdQAtoxTQFei85AeSJhRQFZiwu5FjCA2s4C4xIvpJ9ghDhWQWLLnPDOELSrx8vE/ VgjbQGLr0n0sELayxOo711ghevUkbkydwgZha0ssW/iaGeIEQYmTM5+wTGAUnYVkxSwkLbOQ 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09:51:09 -0000 Hello Dmitri,=0A= thanks for your analysis.=0A= =0A= Without doing any considerations about the internal mechanisms of our algor= ithms, I would say:=0A= =0A= - our solution [1], observing just one direction, gives information about t= he loss experienced within the operator's domain of the observed channel (e= xploiting the Qbit) and the E2E loss of the opposite channel (using Rbit an= d Qbit together);=0A= - your solution [2], observing just one direction, gives information about = the loss experienced within the operator's domain plus the E2E loss of the = observed channel (so no information about the opposite channel at all);=0A= - both solutions needs to observe both directions to evaluate the whole cli= ent-server connection.=0A= =0A= Being these mechanisms intended for connection-oriented loss evaluation, an= d therefore to evaluate the entire user experience, we prefer a solution th= at, observing just one direction, produces measurements related to both dir= ections, approaching the intent for which this kind of explicit E2E measure= ments were born.=0A= =0A= Fabio B.=0A= Telecom Italia (TIM)=0A= =0A= 1. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements-01#secti= on-7=0A= 2. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-quic-lossbits-03=0A= =0A= =0A= ________________________________________=0A= Da: Dmitri Tikhonov =0A= Inviato: gioved=EC 9 aprile 2020 22:08=0A= A: Cociglio Mauro=0A= Cc: quic@ietf.org; Giuseppe Fioccola; Bulgarella Fabio (Guest); Lubashev, I= gor; alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com; isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; Nilo Mas= simo; 'Riccardo Sisto'; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)=0A= Oggetto: [EXT] Reflected Square can't measure downstream loss [Was: New QUI= C Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements)]=0A= =0A= Hello,=0A= =0A= The proposed "Reflected Square" loss detection mechanism [1] is=0A= not an improvement over the existing "L-bit" mechanism [2] by Akamai=0A= and Orange. This is because the Reflected Square is missing a feature:=0A= it does not provide downstream loss information in all scenarios.=0A= =0A= To calculate downstream loss, the Reflected Square probe must be able=0A= to observe traffic in both directions. The problem with this is that the= =0A= opposite flow may not go through the tapped node! This means that for=0A= these cases, such probe is useless as it cannot figure out whether the=0A= loss is upstream or downstream.=0A= =0A= Contrast this with an L-bit probe: Given a single flow, it measures=0A= upstream, downstream, and end-to-end loss. (Obviously, Reflected Square=0A= also can't measure end-to-end loss using a single flow.)=0A= =0A= The Reflected Square proposal is a severe degradation in functionality=0A= compared with the L-bit proposal.=0A= =0A= - Dmitri.=0A= =0A= 1. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements-01=0A= 2. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-quic-lossbits-03=0A= =0A= On Wed, Apr 08, 2020 at 08:25:07AM +0000, Cociglio Mauro wrote:=0A= > Dear QUIC WG Members.=0A= >=0A= > We submitted to IPPM WG a draft where we described a new 2 bit packet los= s methodology (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measureme= nts-01).=0A= > The measurement of packet loss is under discussion in QUIC WG and our dra= ft introduces two alternatives about it.=0A= > The first one is a spin-bit dependent signal and uses a single bit. The s= econd one, described in the following linked slides, is a standalone soluti= on based on a two bits loss signal and on alternate marking (RFC8321).=0A= > This last methodology improves, in our opinion, the algorithm proposed by= Orange and Akamai described in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ferrieuxh= amchaoui-quic-lossbits-03.=0A= >=0A= > The 2 bits are the sQuare bit (Q-bit) and the Reflection square bit (R-bi= t).=0A= > The Q-bit doesn't change from the Ferrieux-Hamchaoui draft but the R-bit = substitutes the L-bit.=0A= > This avoids the L-bit dependence from an internal protocol variable, a pr= oblem raised in the last QUIC interim meeting.=0A= >=0A= > You can find the slides, we prepared for the IPPM interim meeting, at the= following link: https://github.com/ietf-ippm/meeting-materials/blob/aa486f= 7ead28b9f55c5ef499e5c9ed33ab06daf9/ietf107-virtual/Slides/07-spinbit-measur= ements.pdf=0A= >=0A= > Comments and suggestions are always welcome.=0A= >=0A= > Of course we are available to present our proposals in the next QUIC WG m= eeting or to arrange a Webex side meeting if needed.=0A= >=0A= > Best regards.=0A= >=0A= > Mauro, Fabio, Giuseppe, Massimo and Riccardo=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > _____________________=0A= > Mauro Cociglio=0A= > TIM - CT.TA.EI=0A= > Via G. Reiss Romoli, 274=0A= > 10148 - Torino (Italy)=0A= > Tel.: +390112285028=0A= > Mobile: +393357669751=0A= > _____________________=0A= >=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle p= ersone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante da= lla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora a= bbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di d= arne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzio= ne, Grazie.=0A= >=0A= > This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privilege= d information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, p= rinting or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended= recipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the s= ender by return e-mail, Thanks.=0A= >=0A= > Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =E8 necessario.=0A= From nobody Fri Apr 10 13:46:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B1E03A0D09; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 13:45:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o1eoDKDimxHG; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 13:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x133.google.com (mail-lf1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 305213A0D05; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 13:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x133.google.com with SMTP id s13so2191229lfb.9; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 13:45:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=gB3AFxi9raVgY/qXaPsXQyY5S+5/cgxrfbZxi46f89M=; b=EETD6d8uJp2A6/L1Y+tYG0yptA8f7IqE7HrsPxUpTHnG2Sgu/lZTvv8oZqZsEjVHyq kyeE54bHWb2X23ZYvhdTM0xjclGVIrsyXBFIsmI1w/82nC9SoJzVsri2Wa2v4Pz9KKWk ZjKWoefwE8mGqo/V6qi6jDLIVHuenxlVnSmXEeJvdwDOmbwN98COw1tlvJCWBLhcrfu8 Y3+dmVpfGqIu9HYd/sTcRiCBce2cUKseCySypfDVBD3mLR0jJVLVx4TIWcN+DqNz3c3F hYeGWcOLZGxLvCDAXf3lDM6AQO5qEBmilhOfEld39qi02RJMjevfvKRRgjrE6r4IiqFU xMSg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=gB3AFxi9raVgY/qXaPsXQyY5S+5/cgxrfbZxi46f89M=; b=TF5LhzsEn+UJnfubA//rHA5HHbs07dxM3BEfrephd0lF4pITHmLz0OW4zeY2R/Dneg LIie89RFg3USDZW9ncH4FLs2mxOheA7GwyO2ccKX7/3o7DIGsl1IsCMPnQTvGvwbk2P5 KVQtbEJy4LDqhwzVEKLRlWHys7kn6GJkVaoK+8qpvbhHgaodTOVapxxnW3HewIZ0UNpQ rK1ATvy8oquiOrHUAWU5zptjcrYFbulO566EAWi+3wzHYpZ91fFZgyPRBkK0AoocMORb hKEJO9JxCV9ksz5fxxe1nUdszumMNlefgitaVwBi+UXWNB3IDzxbadKHy/fnOsEU22Oz Pj4g== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYfCdBipqR324PZKtOP4IGlzQ4sOT9As96ZS7ESsB2i+DyeN6jB ATxN0dl5ihONVCRoBWZIuaA3vlHe4e1bvF2bCI0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypI1wg7XXmypz+NMrrH4wcR0ju6z2niYu4BiH9SV+F034tn72sVKcfEpOPGg7C5+1fuETVCk1JfrwPWBY727OPY= X-Received: by 2002:a19:7411:: with SMTP id v17mr3610116lfe.27.1586551544115; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 13:45:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3ca3b5aae01d4650a3451639268b3f1e@TELMBXD14BA020.telecomitalia.local> <1889f403ee0240c0bdab4daf656d6f1d@TELMBXD14BA020.telecomitalia.local> In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 15:45:18 -0500 Message-ID: To: Cociglio Mauro Cc: Ian Swett , "quic@ietf.org" , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" , "Lubashev, Igor" , "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" , "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" , Riccardo Sisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003475cb05a2f5d184" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [EXT] Re: New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 20:45:55 -0000 --0000000000003475cb05a2f5d184 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 8:41 AM Cociglio Mauro < mauro.cociglio@telecomitalia.it> wrote: > I agree with you Spencer but unfortunately S-bit already stands for Spin > bit in the QUIC header. > > Sorry ;=E2=80=91) > I was the kind of AD who followed the discussions of the Spin bit with great interest (I'm trying to remember which IETF meeting I introduced myself as "the Spin bit AD"), but didn't notice that detail. Thanks to you and Dmitri for pointing it out :-) Best, Spencer > Mauro > > > > *Da:* Spencer Dawkins at IETF > *Inviato:* gioved=C3=AC 9 aprile 2020 19:28 > *A:* Cociglio Mauro > *Cc:* Ian Swett ; quic@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG ( > ippm@ietf.org) ; Lubashev, Igor ; > alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com; isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; Riccardo > Sisto > *Oggetto:* Re: [EXT] Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement > (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) > > > > 18 > > > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 11:22 AM Cociglio Mauro 40telecomitalia.it@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Thanks Ian for your email. > > We intend to proceed with the privacy analysis, which is the same as that > of the *Ferrieux-Hamchaoui draft for the part of the Q-bit (and the R-bit > should be very similar to Q-bit in terms of privacy).* > > R-bit stands for =E2=80=9CReflected square bit=E2=80=9D, not for =E2=80= =9CRetransmission bit=E2=80=9D, but > of course the letter can be changed. > > > > If you need to change the letter, "S-bit" for "Square bit" would be one o= f > the best field names I've seen in a while (sooner or later, every QUIC > developer will ask, "what's a square bit?"). > > > > I'm mostly serious, and only partially bike-shedding. > > > > Best regards and happy Easter. > > > > The same to you! > > > > Spencer > > > > > > Mauro > > > > _____________________ > > Mauro Cociglio > > TIM - CT.TA.EI > > Via G. Reiss Romoli, 274 > > 10148 - Torino (Italy) > > Tel.: +390112285028 > > Mobile: +393357669751 > > _____________________ > > > > > > *Da:* Ian Swett > *Inviato:* mercoled=C3=AC 8 aprile 2020 21:44 > *A:* Cociglio Mauro > > *Cc:* quic@ietf.org; Lubashev, Igor ; > alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com; isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; Riccardo > Sisto ; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) < > ippm@ietf.org> > *Oggetto:* [EXT] Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement > (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) > > > > Thanks for sharing this. From my perspective, this is an improvement upo= n > the previous proposal in terms of robustness. This design feels very > similar to the spin bit, and seems trivial to implement, which are also > nice properties. > > > > Also, QUIC doesn't really have retransmissions, so the 'R bit' name alway= s > made me a bit uncomfortable. > > > > I'm not saying QUIC should adopt this yet, but I'd be interested in seein= g > a privacy analysis completed for it. > > > > Ian > > > > On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 4:25 AM Cociglio Mauro 40telecomitalia.it@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Dear QUIC WG Members. > > > > We submitted to IPPM WG a draft where we described a new 2 bit packet los= s > methodology ( > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements-01). > > *The measurement of packet loss is under discussion in QUIC WG and our > draft introduces two alternatives about it.* > > *T**he first one is a spin-bit dependent signal and uses a single bit. > The second one, described in the following linked slides, is a > standalone solution based on a two bits loss signal and on alternate > marking (RFC8321)..* > > *This last methodology **improves, in our opinion, the algorithm proposed > by Orange and Akamai described in* *https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fer= rieuxhamchaoui-quic-lossbits-03 > **.= * > > > > *The 2 bits are the sQuare bit (Q-bit) and the Reflection square bit > (R-bit).* > > *The Q-bit doesn=E2=80=99t change from the Ferrieux-Hamchaoui draft but t= he R-bit > substitutes the L-bit.* > > *This avoids the L-bit dependence from an internal protocol variable, a > problem raised in the last QUIC interim meeting.* > > > > You can find the slides, we prepared for the IPPM interim meeting, at the > following link: > https://github.com/ietf-ippm/meeting-materials/blob/aa486f7ead28b9f55c5ef= 499e5c9ed33ab06daf9/ietf107-virtual/Slides/07-spinbit-measurements.pdf > > > > Comments and suggestions are always welcome. > > > > Of course we are available to present our proposals in the next QUIC WG > meeting or to arrange a Webex side meeting if needed. > > > > Best regards. > > > > Mauro, Fabio, Giuseppe, Massimo and Riccardo > > > > > > _____________________ > > Mauro Cociglio > > TIM - CT.TA.EI > > Via G. Reiss Romoli, 274 > > 10148 - Torino (Italy) > > Tel.: +390112285028 <+39%20011%20228%205028> > > Mobile: +393357669751 <+39%20335%20766%209751> > > _____________________ > > > > > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > > > > Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle > persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante > dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualo= ra > abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati d= i > darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua > distruzione, Grazie. > > * This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain > privileged information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, > copying, printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not > the intended recipient, please delete this message and any attachments an= d > advise the sender by return e-mail, Thanks. * > > *Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =C3=A8 necessario.* > --0000000000003475cb05a2f5d184 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 8:41 AM Cocig= lio Mauro <mauro.coci= glio@telecomitalia.it> wrote:

I agree with you Spencer but un= fortunately S-bit already stands for Spin bit in the QUIC header.

Sorry ;=E2=80=91)


I was the kind of AD who followed= the discussions of the Spin bit with great interest (I'm trying to rem= ember which IETF meeting I introduced myself as "the Spin bit AD"= ), but didn't notice that detail. Thanks to you and Dmitri for pointing= it out :-)

Best,

Spencer=
=C2=A0

Mauro

=C2=A0

Da: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Inviato: gioved=C3=AC 9 aprile 2020 19:28
A: Cociglio Mauro <mauro.cociglio@telecomitalia.it>
Cc: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>; quic@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>; Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; alexandre.= ferrieux@orange.com; isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; Riccardo Sisto <riccardo.sisto@po= lito.it>
Oggetto: Re: [EXT] Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draf= t-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements)

=C2=A0

18

=C2=A0

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 11:22 AM Cociglio Mauro <m= auro.cociglio=3D40telecomitalia.it@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:<= /p>

Thanks= Ian for your email.

We int= end to proceed with the privacy analysis, which is the same as that of the Ferrieux-Hamchaoui draft for the part of the Q-bit (and the R-bit sho= uld be very similar to Q-bit =C2=A0in terms of privacy).=

R-bit = stands for =E2=80=9CReflected square bit=E2=80=9D, not for =E2=80=9CRetrans= mission bit=E2=80=9D, but of course the letter can be changed.

=C2=A0

If you need to change the letter, "S-bit" = for "Square bit" would be one of the best field=C2=A0names I'= ve seen in a while=C2=A0(sooner or later, every QUIC developer will ask, &q= uot;what's a square bit?").

=C2=A0

I'm mostly serious, and only partially bike-shed= ding.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Best r= egards and happy Easter.

=C2=A0

The same to you!

=C2=A0

Spencer

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

Mauro<= /span>

=C2=A0=

_____________________

Mauro Cociglio

TIM - CT.TA.EI

Via G. Reiss Romoli, 274

10148 - Torino (Italy)

Tel.: +390112285028

Mobile: +393357669751

_____________________

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

Da: Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.or= g>
Inviato: mercoled=C3=AC 8 aprile 2020 21:44
A: Cociglio Mauro <mauro.cociglio@telecomitalia.it>
Cc: quic@ietf.org= ; Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; alexandr= e.ferrieux@orange.com; isabelle= .hamchaoui@orange.com; Riccardo Sisto <riccardo.sisto@polito.it>; IETF IPP= M WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org&g= t;
Oggetto: [EXT] Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cf= b-ippm-spinbit-measurements)

=C2=A0

Thanks for sharing this.=C2=A0 From my perspective, = this is an improvement upon the previous proposal in terms of robustness.= =C2=A0=C2=A0This design feels very similar to the spin bit, and seems trivial to implement, which are also nice properties.

=C2=A0

Also, QUIC doesn't really have retransmissions, = so the 'R bit' name always made me a bit uncomfortable.

=C2=A0

I'm not saying QUIC should adopt this yet, but I= 'd be interested in seeing a privacy analysis completed for it.<= u>

=C2=A0

Ian

=C2=A0

On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 4:25 AM Cociglio Mauro <ma= uro.cociglio=3D40telecomitalia.it@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:<= /p>

Dear Q= UIC WG Members.

=C2=A0=

We sub= mitted to IPPM WG a draft where we described a new 2 bit packet loss method= ology (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cfb-ippm-spi= nbit-measurements-01).

The measurement of packet loss = is under discussion in QUIC WG and our draft introduces two=C2=A0alternativ= es about it.

The=C2=A0first one=C2=A0is a spin-bit=C2=A0dependent signal and uses a single bit. The second one,=C2=A0described in the follow= ing linked slides, is a standalone=C2=A0solution based on a two bits loss s= ignal and on alternate marking (RFC8321)..

This last methodology=C2=A0= improves, in our opinion,=C2=A0the algorithm proposed by Orange and Akamai described= in=C2=A0http= s://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-quic-lossbits-03= .

=C2=A0=

The 2 bits are t= he sQuare bit (Q-bit) and the Reflection square bit (R-bit).

The Q-bit doesn= =E2=80=99t change from the Ferrieux-Hamchaoui draft but the R-bit substitutes the L-bit.

This avoids the = L-bit dependence from an internal protocol variable, a problem raised in the last QUIC interim meeting.

=C2=A0=

You ca= n find the slides, we prepared for the IPPM interim meeting, at the followi= ng link: https://github.com/ietf-ippm/meeting-materials/blob/aa486f7ead28b9f= 55c5ef499e5c9ed33ab06daf9/ietf107-virtual/Slides/07-spinbit-measurements.pd= f

=C2=A0=

Commen= ts and suggestions are always welcome.

=C2=A0=

Of cou= rse we are available to present our proposals in the next QUIC WG meeting o= r to arrange a Webex side meeting if needed.

=C2=A0=

Best regards.<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

Mauro, Fabio, Giusepp= e, Massimo and Riccardo

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

_____________________

Mauro Cociglio

TIM - CT.TA.EI

Via G. Reiss Romoli, 274

10148 - Torino (Italy)

Tel.: +390112285028<= u>

Mobile: +393357669751<= u>

_____________________

=C2=A0


ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm=

=C2=A0

Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle= persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante = dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora= abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di= darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruz= ione, Grazie.

This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privi= leged information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copyin= g, printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the inte= nded recipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise t= he sender by return e-mail, Thanks.

Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =C3=A8 nece= ssario.
=09
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Fri, 10 Apr 2020 13:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xse192.mail2web.com ([66.113.196.192] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx169.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jN0h2-0004TO-IM for ippm@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 22:56:10 +0200 Received: from xsmtp22.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.61]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48zVfP5tPlz35yZ for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 13:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.5.2.15] (helo=xmail05.myhosting.com) by xsmtp22.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jN0gv-0003Oq-Mi for ippm@ietf.org; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 13:55:57 -0700 Received: (qmail 32618 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2020 20:55:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.102]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.46.206]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail05.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 10 Apr 2020 20:55:57 -0000 To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF , Cociglio Mauro Cc: Riccardo Sisto , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" , Ian Swett , "Lubashev, Igor" , "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" , "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" , "quic@ietf.org" References: <3ca3b5aae01d4650a3451639268b3f1e@TELMBXD14BA020.telecomitalia.local> <1889f403ee0240c0bdab4daf656d6f1d@TELMBXD14BA020.telecomitalia.local> From: Christian Huitema Autocrypt: addr=huitema@huitema.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFIRX8gBCAC26usy/Ya38IqaLBSu33vKD6hP5Yw390XsWLaAZTeQR64OJEkoOdXpvcOS HWfMIlD5s5+oHfLe8jjmErFAXYJ8yytPj1fD2OdSKAe1TccUBiOXT8wdVxSr5d0alExVv/LO I/vA2aU1TwOkVHKSapD7j8/HZBrqIWRrXUSj2f5n9tY2nJzG9KRzSG0giaJWBfUFiGb4lvsy IaCaIU0YpfkDDk6PtK5YYzuCeF0B+O7N9LhDu/foUUc4MNq4K3EKDPb2FL1Hrv0XHpkXeMRZ olpH8SUFUJbmi+zYRuUgcXgMZRmZFL1tu6z9h6gY4/KPyF9aYot6zG28Qk/BFQRtj7V1ABEB AAG0J0NocmlzdGlhbiBIdWl0ZW1hIDxodWl0ZW1hQGh1aXRlbWEubmV0PokBOQQTAQIAIwUC UhFfyAIbLwcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEJNDCbJVyA1yhbYH/1ud6x6m VqGIp0JcZUfSQO8w+TjugqxCyGNn+w/6Qb5O/xENxNQ4HaMQ5uSRK9n8WKKDDRSzwZ4syKKf wbkfj05vgFxrjCynVbm1zs2X2aGXh+PxPL/WHUaxzEP7KjYbLtCUZDRzOOrm+0LMktngT/k3 6+EZoLEM52hwwpIAzJoscyEz7QfqMOZtFm6xQnlvDQeIrHx0KUvwo/vgDLK3SuruG1CSHcR0 D24kEEUa044AIUKBS3b0b8AR7f6mP2NcnLpdsibtpabi9BzqAidcY/EjTaoea46HXALk/eJd 6OLkLE6UQe1PPzQC4jB7rErX2BxnSkHDw50xMgLRcl5/b1a5AQ0EUhFfyAEIAKp7Cp8lqKTV CC9QiAf6QTIjW+lie5J44Ad++0k8gRgANZVWubQuCQ71gxDWLtxYfFkEXjG4TXV/MUtnOliG 5rc2E+ih6Dg61Y5PQakm9OwPIsOx+2R+iSW325ngln2UQrVPgloO83QiUoi7mBJPbcHlxkhZ bd3+EjFxSLIQogt29sTcg2oSh4oljUpz5niTt69IOfZx21kf29NfDE+Iw56gfrxI2ywZbu5o G+d0ZSp0lsovygpk4jK04fDTq0vxjEU5HjPcsXC4CSZdq5E2DrF4nOh1UHkHzeaXdYR2Bn1Y wTePfaHBFlvQzI+Li/Q6AD/uxbTM0vIcsUxrv3MNHCUAEQEAAYkCPgQYAQIACQUCUhFfyAIb LgEpCRCTQwmyVcgNcsBdIAQZAQIABgUCUhFfyAAKCRC22tOSFDh1UOlBB/94RsCJepNvmi/c YiNmMnm0mKb6vjv43OsHkqrrCqJSfo95KHyl5Up4JEp8tiJMyYT2mp4IsirZHxz/5lqkw9Az tcGAF3GlFsj++xTyD07DXlNeddwTKlqPRi/b8sppjtWur6Pm+wnAHp0mQ7GidhxHccFCl65w uT7S/ocb1MjrTgnAMiz+x87d48n1UJ7yIdI41Wpg2XFZiA9xPBiDuuoPwFj14/nK0elV5Dvq 4/HVgfurb4+fd74PV/CC/dmd7hg0ZRlgnB5rFUcFO7ywb7/TvICIIaLWcI42OJDSZjZ/MAzz BeXm263lHh+kFxkh2LxEHnQGHCHGpTYyi4Z3dv03HtkH/1SI8joQMQq00Bv+RdEbJXfEExrT u4gtdZAihwvy97OPA2nCdTAHm/phkzryMeOaOztI4PS8u2Ce5lUB6P/HcGtK/038KdX5MYST Fn8KUDt4o29bkv0CUXwDzS3oTzPNtGdryBkRMc9b+yn9+AdwFEH4auhiTQXPMnl0+G3nhKr7 jvzVFJCRif3OAhEm4vmBNDE3uuaXFQnbK56GJrnqVN+KX5Z3M7X3fA8UcVCGOEHXRP/aubiw Ngawj0V9x+43kUapFp+nF69R53UI65YtJ95ec4PTO/Edvap8h1UbdEOc4+TiYwY1TBuIKltY 1cnrjgAWUh/Ucvr++/KbD9tD6C8= Message-ID: <6930e356-a117-9fb5-32fe-66af7326f2c2@huitema.net> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 13:55:58 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; 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charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 4/10/2020 1:45 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 8:41 AM Cociglio Mauro > > wrote: > > I agree with you Spencer but unfortunately S-bit already stands > for Spin bit in the QUIC header. > > Sorry ;‑) > > > I was the kind of AD who followed the discussions of the Spin bit with > great interest (I'm trying to remember which IETF meeting I introduced > myself as "the Spin bit AD"), but didn't notice that detail. Thanks to > you and Dmitri for pointing it out :-) It seems logical to spin-bit this. -- Christian Huitema --------------1D0E929842F29D7CBC0893A4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


On 4/10/2020 1:45 PM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 8:41 AM Cociglio Mauro <mauro.cociglio@telecomitalia.it> wrote:

I agree with you Spencer but unfortunately S-bit already stands for Spin bit in the QUIC header.

Sorry ;‑)


I was the kind of AD who followed the discussions of the Spin bit with great interest (I'm trying to remember which IETF meeting I introduced myself as "the Spin bit AD"), but didn't notice that detail. Thanks to you and Dmitri for pointing it out :-)


It seems logical to spin-bit this.

-- Christian Huitema

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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IPPM, After the WG virtual meeting, based on the feedback from the chairs, we hav= e removed any description about PBT-I (which has been merged into IOAM DEX = draft). Now the draft only discusses the marking-based PBT. Please provide your co= mments and suggestions. Also please let us know if you like to collaborate.= Thank you very much! https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-ippm-postcard-based-telemetry/ Haoyu --_000_DM6PR13MB2762BE0EF5552B4B51D501A09ADD0DM6PR13MB2762namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

IPPM,

 

After the WG virtual meeting, based on the feedback = from the chairs, we have removed any description about PBT-I (which has bee= n merged into IOAM DEX draft).

Now the draft only discusses the marking-based PBT. =  Please provide your comments and suggestions. Also please let us know= if you like to collaborate. Thank you very much!

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-s= ong-ippm-postcard-based-telemetry/

 

Haoyu

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[127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id 03LGHLWU019905; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:31:46 -0700 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.57]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com with ESMTP id 30fyh8ahqw-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:31:45 -0700 Received: from usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.65) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 12:31:44 -0400 Received: from usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.65]) by usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.65]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.006; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 12:31:44 -0400 From: "Lubashev, Igor" To: Ian Swett , Cociglio Mauro CC: "quic@ietf.org" , "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" , "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" , Riccardo Sisto , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Thread-Topic: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) Thread-Index: AdYNfRCPTsr9cJpyT2q4st79g+H+ngAiuRSAAlAHJ8A= Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:31:44 +0000 Message-ID: <6b9e74ac94114d28ae4a66f1e9625ebd@usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com> References: <3ca3b5aae01d4650a3451639268b3f1e@TELMBXD14BA020.telecomitalia.local> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.112.94] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6b9e74ac94114d28ae4a66f1e9625ebdusma1exdag1mb6msgcorpak_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.676 definitions=2020-04-21_06:2020-04-20, 2020-04-21 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-2002250000 definitions=main-2004210126 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.676 definitions=2020-04-21_06:2020-04-20, 2020-04-21 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 lowpriorityscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 priorityscore=1501 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2004210126 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:41:37 -0000 --_000_6b9e74ac94114d28ae4a66f1e9625ebdusma1exdag1mb6msgcorpak_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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d=guest.telecomitalia.it; s=selector1; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; i=@guest.telecomitalia.it; t=1587582699; x=2451496299; h=MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID:Subject:To; bh=QF531myq4tzUpJvmHlZzYPpcEstBEzmsqrq62paGeBk=; b=NCUlF+kdbuzC/gSm99+PBudRC0ZOyJ9AfzJNQxcASDOONYavG6kII1PnGVfko7DC tmRzMkRbZfXJmxBHRMjekPV1+ZJ6jcd6SEVwrG2McDb+8NNYrnTvq03SWWbqg9Oc FnD7T1w1qdYMNodJ8K76QjFqyIo9JueUcLJzN67oXGkh4GtrF8+nyg6+u90o+nSi lTDgWKh+sSoIQUvYYCZWwabfsc6G4LbWGJNXEwgPoWwEohx75w4MCDiFJ+xPQPdV kNipr7Ai7EPGH9S0C1Xb7V9rejVNpcHUjbczK+bF8fYS8WItG3uMjMJ14C+Cegz/ h21xqR9jIifoZQ9rnUz0og==; X-AuditID: 0a5a2d17-bbfff70000008b12-69-5ea096ebb39e Received: from TELMBXC12BA020.telecomitalia.local ( [10.90.43.46]) by mx07.telecomitalia.it () with SMTP id 86.85.35602.BE690AE5; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 21:11:39 +0200 (CEST) From: "Bulgarella Fabio (Guest)" To: "Lubashev, Igor" , Ian Swett , Cociglio Mauro CC: Riccardo Sisto , "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" , "quic@ietf.org" , "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Thread-Topic: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) Thread-Index: AQHWF/zfNwOq9+2pFU28gxDKDgXEdaiFgojx Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 19:11:38 +0000 Message-ID: <1587582698016.72632@guest.telecomitalia.it> References: <3ca3b5aae01d4650a3451639268b3f1e@TELMBXD14BA020.telecomitalia.local> , <6b9e74ac94114d28ae4a66f1e9625ebd@usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <6b9e74ac94114d28ae4a66f1e9625ebd@usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com> Accept-Language: it-IT, en-US Content-Language: it-IT X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [188.152.76.144] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_158758269801672632guesttelecomitaliait_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrMIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXCFaWtp/t62oI4g+M/1CyW/ZC3+HlvJ6vF sVknmCx6Hrxjtrh08CO7xcK9a1gsehZwW/y8vZPdgcPjxLIrrB4LNpV6LFnyk8mj5dlJNo/T K4sDWKO4bFJSczLLUov07RK4Mi58n81e8OgvY0Xn+dmMDYzr7jB2MXJySAiYSBzr+svcxcjF ISSwilHiX38DkMPBwSbgJTH7jjJIXERgMaPE/T3PmUEamAXamCQWNaiC2MICMRK9fR9ZQGwR gViJDy8esUHYRhL7Py0DW8AioCrxbkcjWA2vgIXEsnXfWCCW3WeU+LXuN1gRp0CwxM7GNUwg NqOArMSE3YsYIZaJS7yYfoId4lIBiSV7zjND2KISLx//Y4WwDSS2Lt3HAmErSVyZfYAJojdO 4tWb48wQiwUlTs58wjKBUWQWkrGzkJTNQlIGETeQeH9uPjOErS2xbOFrKFtfYuOXs4zI4gsY 2VcxiuZWGJjrlaTmpCbn52aWJOZkJupllmxiBMerrvgOxgkb3ugdYmTiYDzEKMHBrCTCu+Hh vDgh3pTEyqrUovz4otKc1OJDjNIcLErivJq1C+KEBNITS1KzU1MLUotgskwcnFINTJ6M6R2L f9yccdVtYtHlq5/W7mNlfuql3naqZH5Zr/6OtMzPy35OvHn/79GKaoGXKevll2jf3nhBwF9G 9XLkv1M/1yS/SG84H1UkIdMu6x0T+KDO+hQ3W4AAU43ISgH7f0u9T7UfuLtJt7DE4u8frpeO N+580MrVDYv5Pu/BYt7+Ob3S59dctJvgH3Bc31//w42JEdbbOQ+9a/A7bbO+wu2fYvcUR5mN igqyAf2LtDW3cS0rlrt2ZnFU8vKm+hkt94qufo6u5jyddndd+l5FLpGsBZNXHF974mDCt48L Cjt4eDN++z4qO1nPsn2OQ+tn8Sy/idc1Yu7ouQtW7/LfsKun7p5biYnktqDbP+eY71JiKc5I NNRiLipOBACvbrXXRgMAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 19:11:48 -0000 --_000_158758269801672632guesttelecomitaliait_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Igor, here some thoughts about your concerns. 1. If big differences in delay are present between two parallel paths on wh= ich the same connection is divided, this is certainly an unwanted behavior,= because it could create problems to the protocol itself even before damagi= ng the performance measurements. As a network operator, we try to avoid suc= h scenarios. However, our mechanism works correctly in most cases and is st= ill resistant to normal reordering. Moreover, with a strong amount of reord= ering the Qbit (and the SpinBit) would not work either. 2. It's true that your mechanism allows the measurement of E2E and upstream= loss of the observed direction. However, these measurement methodologies a= re born with the idea of providing information on the performance of the en= tire connection, as was done with the SpinBit. Actually with our mechanism,= when observing a single direction, we still are able to measure the E2E lo= ss of the opposite channel (using the R-bit). 3. The ACK ratio of 1:10 should only occur in the absence of loss. By intro= ducing loss, the ratio between ACK and data is certainly better. So the qua= lity of our signal improves just when it is needed; we don't care if we get= delayed measurements when everything is working great. This behavior is co= nfirmed by our laboratory tests where we have seen that loss can be easily = detected in an extremely accurate manner even in the case of highly unbalan= ced flows. L-Bit has an RTO delay but to evaluate an accurate loss ratio you have stil= l to observe a significant number of packets. 4. First of all, our solution is not dependent on any specific protocol imp= lementation unlike the QL and therefore there shouldn=92t be problems relat= ed to the quality of the implementation. In other words, our portion of cod= e is always the same, in every protocol implementation. Secondly, as anticipated in point 2, by observing only one direction we can= measure the losses in the operator's domain (Qbit) and the end-to-end in t= he opposite direction (Rbit). So, our solution does work also for asymmetri= c path segments. We can also place two indipendent observers wherever on th= e two directions and they will still produce coherent E2E measures. The QL solution does not give any information about the opposite direction,= it only measures what it observes, that is the current direction. Having t= wo independent measures, one per direction, can be an advantage in some asp= ects, but a disadvantage for others. Best regards, Fabio B. ________________________________ Da: ippm per conto di Lubashev, Igor Inviato: marted=EC 21 aprile 2020 18:31 A: Ian Swett; Cociglio Mauro Cc: Riccardo Sisto; isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; quic@ietf.org; alexandre= .ferrieux@orange.com; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Oggetto: [EXT] Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-= spinbit-measurements) I like the QR draft from the perspective that it mostly works (and lots of = credit is due for things that work). I have a few concerns, though. 1. The most trivial one is that QR is actually harder to implement correctl= y for endpoints, given the tricky processing required to identify when a ma= rking interval has ended. Experimental data that Akamai & Orange compiled = shows that there are networks that do ECMP among links with significantly d= ifferent latencies. They will cause a lot more reordering to a burst of pa= ckets than the recommended =93observe 5 packets (in a row?) of the opposite= markings=94 rule can address. You might need to potentially defer the dec= ision on where exactly the marking period boundary is until you=92ve seen a= lmost half of the next marking period. Requiring every endpoint to impleme= nt this right is tough. 2. Since the most important direction (at least for downloads and media str= eaming) is server-to-client, to get this signal with QR, you need both endp= oints implementing the logic, with the heaviest lift on the clients (see ab= ove). For QL, a client that does not want to implement QL logic but is ok = with the loss data reporting can just update the TP and header protection m= ask =96 all the lift is on the server side. 3. I am concerned with the quality of the signal you get from QR. While th= e upstream loss signal is strong (same Q-bit), the downstream/end-to-end lo= ss signal is weak and is likely to result in very delayed and inconclusive = signal. Google=92s experience (as I understand it) and protocol research (= https://erg.abdn.ac.uk/~downloads/ackscaling.pdf) point to the benefit of A= CK-ing only 1:10 packets after the initial slow start (draft-fairhurst-quic= -ack-scaling). Since such behavior has a beneficial impact on networks, mo= bile devices, and endpoint cpu, and no negative impact on the protocol perf= ormance, I expect it to be in common use. With 1:10 ACK ratio, R-bit signa= l is significantly delayed as it is lagging the loss by at least 1400*(Q=3D= 64)*2*10=3D1.8MB of data transferred, which is at least 38 RTTs for a 15Mbp= s stream over a 25ms link (L-bit signal is delayed by an RTO). 4. QR scheme only works for symmetric path segments, when the observer can = capture both directions of the flow. You also cannot compute end-to-end los= s in any direction, unless both endpoints implement the entire QR algorithm= . In contrast, QL works for single-direction observers, and whichever endp= oint implements QL algorithm ensures end-to-end loss signal for the packets= it sends, and the quality of that loss signal solely depends on the qualit= y of that endpoint=92s implementation (not the quality of the other endpoin= t=92s implementation). QL seems more deployable. * Igor From: Ian Swett Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 3:44 PM To: Cociglio Mauro Cc: quic@ietf.org; Lubashev, Igor ; alexandre.ferrieux= @orange.com; isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; Riccardo Sisto ; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Subject: Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbi= t-measurements) Thanks for sharing this. From my perspective, this is an improvement upon = the previous proposal in terms of robustness. This design feels very simil= ar to the spin bit, and seems trivial to implement, which are also nice pro= perties. Also, QUIC doesn't really have retransmissions, so the 'R bit' name always = made me a bit uncomfortable. I'm not saying QUIC should adopt this yet, but I'd be interested in seeing = a privacy analysis completed for it. Ian On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 4:25 AM Cociglio Mauro > wrote: Dear QUIC WG Members. We submitted to IPPM WG a draft where we described a new 2 bit packet loss = methodology (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurement= s-01). The measurement of packet loss is under discussion in QUIC WG and our draft= introduces two alternatives about it. The first one is a spin-bit dependent signal and uses a single bit. The sec= ond one, described in the following linked slides, is a standalone solution= based on a two bits loss signal and on alternate marking (RFC8321).. This last methodology improves, in our opinion, the algorithm proposed by O= range and Akamai described in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ferrieuxham= chaoui-quic-lossbits-03. The 2 bits are the sQuare bit (Q-bit) and the Reflection square bit (R-bit)= . The Q-bit doesn=92t change from the Ferrieux-Hamchaoui draft but the R-bit = substitutes the L-bit. This avoids the L-bit dependence from an internal protocol variable, a prob= lem raised in the last QUIC interim meeting. You can find the slides, we prepared for the IPPM interim meeting, at the f= ollowing link: https://github.com/ietf-ippm/meeting-materials/blob/aa486f7e= ad28b9f55c5ef499e5c9ed33ab06daf9/ietf107-virtual/Slides/07-spinbit-measurem= ents.pdf Comments and suggestions are always welcome. Of course we are available to present our proposals in the next QUIC WG mee= ting or to arrange a Webex side meeting if needed. Best regards. Mauro, Fabio, Giuseppe, Massimo and Riccardo _____________________ Mauro Cociglio TIM - CT.TA.EI Via G. Reiss Romoli, 274 10148 - Torino (Italy) Tel.: +390112285028 Mobile: +393357669751 _____________________ [https://img.tim.it/sdr/maild/mail_dip_680x190_Banner_DISNEY_TIMVISION_LANC= IO_v2.jpg] Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle per= sone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dall= a conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abb= iate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di dar= ne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione= , Grazie. This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged = information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, pri= nting or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended r= ecipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sen= der by return e-mail, Thanks. Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =E8 necessario. _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --_000_158758269801672632guesttelecomitaliait_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Igor,
here some thoughts about your concerns.

1. If big differences in delay are present between two parallel paths = on which the same connection is divided, this is certainly an unwanted beha= vior, because it could create problems to the protocol itself even before d= amaging the performance measurements. As a network operator, we try to avoid such scenarios. However, our mechan= ism works correctly in most cases and is still resistant to normal reorderi= ng. Moreover, with a strong amount of reordering the Qbit (and the SpinBit)= would not work either.


2. It's true that your mechanism allows the measurement of E2E and ups= tream loss of the observed direction. However, these measurement methodolog= ies are born with the idea of providing information on the performance of t= he entire connection, as was done with the SpinBit. Actually with our mechanism, when observing a single dir= ection, we still are able to measure the E2E loss of the opposite channel (= using the R-bit).


3. The ACK ratio of 1:10 should only occur in the absence of loss. By = introducing loss, the ratio between ACK and data is certainly better. So th= e quality of our signal improves just when it is needed; we don't care if w= e get delayed measurements when everything is working great. This behavior is confirmed by our laboratory = tests where we have seen that loss can be easily detected in an extremely a= ccurate manner even in the case of highly unbalanced flows.

L-Bit has an RTO delay but to evaluate an accurate loss ratio you have= still to observe a significant number of packets.


4. First of all, our solution is not dependent on any specific protoco= l implementation unlike the QL and therefore there shouldn=92t be problems = related to the quality of the implementation. In other words, our portion o= f code is always the same, in every protocol implementation.
Secondly, as anticipated in point 2, by observing only one direction w= e can measure the losses in the operator's domain (Qbit) and the end-to-end= in the opposite direction (Rbit). So, our solution does work also for asym= metric path segments. We can also place two indipendent observers wherever on the two directions and they wi= ll still produce coherent E2E measures.

The QL solution does not give any information about the opposite direc= tion, it only measures what it observes, that is the current direction. Hav= ing two independent measures, one per direction, can be an advantage in som= e aspects, but a disadvantage for others.


Best regards,
Fabio B.


Da: ippm <ippm-bounces@i= etf.org> per conto di Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe=3D40akamai.com@dmarc.i= etf.org>
Inviato: marted=EC 21 aprile 2020 18:31
A: Ian Swett; Cociglio Mauro
Cc: Riccardo Sisto; isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; quic@ietf.org; al= exandre.ferrieux@orange.com; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)
Oggetto: [EXT] Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cf= b-ippm-spinbit-measurements)
 

I like the QR draft from the perspective that it mos= tly works (and lots of credit is due for things that work).

 

I have a few concerns, though.

 

1. The most trivial one is that QR is actually harde= r to implement correctly for endpoints, given the tricky processing require= d to identify when a marking interval has ended.  Experimental data th= at Akamai & Orange compiled shows that there are networks that do ECMP among links with significantly different l= atencies.  They will cause a lot more reordering to a burst of packets= than the recommended =93observe 5 packets (in a row?) of the opposite mark= ings=94 rule can address.  You might need to potentially defer the decision on where exactly the marking period boun= dary is until you=92ve seen almost half of the next marking period.  R= equiring every endpoint to implement this right is tough.

 

2. Since the most important direction (at least for = downloads and media streaming) is server-to-client, to get this signal with= QR, you need both endpoints implementing the logic, with the heaviest lift= on the clients (see above).  For QL, a client that does not want to implement QL logic but is ok with the l= oss data reporting can just update the TP and header protection mask =96 al= l the lift is on the server side.

 

3. I am concerned with the quality of the signal you= get from QR.  While the upstream loss signal is strong (same Q-bit), = the downstream/end-to-end loss signal is weak and is likely to result in ve= ry delayed and inconclusive signal.  Google=92s experience (as I understand it) and protocol research (https://erg.abdn.ac.uk/~downloads= /ackscaling.pdf) point to the benefit of ACK-ing only 1:10 packets afte= r the initial slow start (draft-fairhurst-quic-ack-scaling).  Since such behavior has a beneficial impact on networks, mobile devi= ces, and endpoint cpu, and no negative impact on the protocol performance, = I expect it to be in common use.  With 1:10 ACK ratio, R-bit signal is= significantly delayed as it is lagging the loss by at least 1400*(Q=3D64)*2*10=3D1.8MB of data transferred, which is = at least 38 RTTs for a 15Mbps stream over a 25ms link (L-bit signal is dela= yed by an RTO).

 

4. QR scheme only works for symmetric path segments,= when the observer can capture both directions of the flow. You also cannot= compute end-to-end loss in any direction, unless both endpoints implement = the entire QR algorithm.  In contrast, QL works for single-direction observers, and whichever endpoint implements= QL algorithm ensures end-to-end loss signal for the packets it sends, and = the quality of that loss signal solely depends on the quality of that endpo= int=92s implementation (not the quality of the other endpoint=92s implementation).  QL seems more deployable.=

 

  • Igor

 

 

From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com> <= br> Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 3:44 PM
To: Cociglio Mauro <mauro.cociglio=3D40telecomitalia.it@dmarc.iet= f.org>
Cc: quic@ietf.org; Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; alexa= ndre.ferrieux@orange.com; isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; Riccardo Sisto <= ;riccardo.sisto@polito.it>; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.o= rg>
Subject: Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm= -spinbit-measurements)

 

Thanks for sharing this.  From my perspective, = this is an improvement upon the previous proposal in terms of robustness.&n= bsp; This design feels very similar to the spin bit, and seems trivial= to implement, which are also nice properties.

 

Also, QUIC doesn't really have retransmissions, so t= he 'R bit' name always made me a bit uncomfortable.

 

I'm not saying QUIC should adopt this yet, but I'd b= e interested in seeing a privacy analysis completed for it.

 

Ian

 

On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 4:25 AM Cociglio Mauro <ma= uro.cociglio=3D40telecomitalia.it@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Dear QUI= C WG Members.

 

We submi= tted to IPPM WG a draft where we described a new 2 bit packet loss methodol= ogy (https= ://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements-01).<= span lang=3D"IT">

The measurement of packet loss is under discussion in QUIC W= G and our draft introduces two alternatives about it.

The f= irst one is a spin-bit dependent signal and uses a single bit. The se= cond one, described in the following linked slides, is a standalone&nb= sp;solution based on a two bits loss signal and on alternate marking (RFC83= 21)..

This last methodology improves, in our opinion, the algorithm proposed by Orange and Akamai described= in https://tools.ietf.or= g/html/draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-quic-lossbits-03<= em>.

 

The= 2 bits are the sQuare bit (Q-bit) and the Reflection square bit (R-bit).

The= Q-bit doesn=92t change from the Ferrieux-Hamchaoui draft but the R-bit sub= stitutes the L-bit.

Thi= s avoids the L-bit dependence from an internal protocol variable, a problem= raised in the last QUIC interim meeting.

 

You can = find the slides, we prepared for the IPPM interim meeting, at the following= link: https://gi= thub.com/ietf-ippm/meeting-materials/blob/aa486f7ead28b9f55c5ef499e5c9ed33a= b06daf9/ietf107-virtual/Slides/07-spinbit-measurements.pdf

 

Comments= and suggestions are always welcome.

 

Of cours= e we are available to present our proposals in the next QUIC WG meeting or = to arrange a Webex side meeting if needed.<= /p>

 

Best regards.

 

Mauro, Fabio, Giuseppe, Massimo and Riccardo

 

 

_____________________

Mauro Cociglio

TIM - CT.TA.EI

Via G. Reiss Romoli, 27= 4

10148 - Torino (Italy)<= /span>

Tel.: +390112285028

Mobile: +393357669751

_____________________

 

 

Questo me= ssaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle persone indi= cate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vieta= te. Qualora abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente= pregati di darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla = sua distruzione, Grazie.

This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileg= ed information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, = printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intende= d recipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sender by return e-mail, Thanks= .

Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =E8 necessario.=

_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
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[68.193.210.25]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k2sm213926qta.39.2020.04.22.13.05.41 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 22 Apr 2020 13:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 16:05:31 -0400 From: Dmitri Tikhonov To: "Bulgarella Fabio (Guest)" Cc: "Lubashev, Igor" , Ian Swett , Cociglio Mauro , "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" , Riccardo Sisto , "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" , "quic@ietf.org" , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Message-ID: <20200422200530.GA11856@lubuntu> Mail-Followup-To: "Bulgarella Fabio (Guest)" , "Lubashev, Igor" , Ian Swett , Cociglio Mauro , "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" , Riccardo Sisto , "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" , "quic@ietf.org" , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" References: <3ca3b5aae01d4650a3451639268b3f1e@TELMBXD14BA020.telecomitalia.local> <6b9e74ac94114d28ae4a66f1e9625ebd@usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com> <1587582698016.72632@guest.telecomitalia.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <1587582698016.72632@guest.telecomitalia.it> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 20:05:47 -0000 Hello, On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 07:11:38PM +0000, Bulgarella Fabio (Guest) wrote: > 4. First of all, our solution is not dependent on any specific protocol > implementation unlike the QL and therefore there shouldn’t be problems > related to the quality of the implementation. In other words, our > portion of code is always the same, in every protocol implementation. I do not understand this part. Problems in which protocol implementation do you mean -- the loss measurement protocol or some other protocol? If the former, I do not understand what you mean by "our portion of code:" Each implementer will write his own code, with his own bugs. > Secondly, as anticipated in point 2, by observing only one direction > we can measure the losses in the operator's domain (Qbit) and the > end-to-end in the opposite direction (Rbit). So, our solution does work > also for asymmetric path segments. I already covered this, but I believe it can bear restating: Besides loss measurement, a probe should aid to locate the source of the loss: upstream or downstream. A single QR probe cannot do it. Do you not agree that locating loss source is one of the probe's goals? - Dmitri. From nobody Thu Apr 23 07:08:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7F473A0484 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 06:27:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=guest.telecomitalia.it Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1ENUnx0B8u44 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 06:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx07.telecomitalia.it (mx07.telecomitalia.it [156.54.232.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4AEBA3A041E for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 06:27:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=guest.telecomitalia.it; s=selector1; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; i=@guest.telecomitalia.it; t=1587648444; x=2451562044; h=MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID:Subject:To; bh=oyNOnNQs80Nrv21bSCogNmV8Z/Zfs3zgNPhRLEBNHpE=; b=SoK3gy9CwZ1SchgD3sfW2HedIfHWBEk+Fgnb7f5jNTiN1wR0nMXcJb8txmu4L7WA 4Wdgb0Dbd2hx5CDFJTbCtgUU9xr6awWCW82dD5nBzkvm6Juiwkcg1CwbmxkLmEof BWAegwliFBvcfWhIatc9KuWm4F7A5w/xsWV7T9Zx8ATUsWnfwXQgtICYjZMcOSe/ fGem2sy7YsBjsiiWFb/SBjqd8R6d+Ja3JOG4uTv+5/zRiS4QGKcmNOe2L0n9wxKA wPs+fPeB1PVwt9lUAm+4Nc0w+/jBsUW+BChpdGnh8ncBM0h7PciwhqXuuLyxFJoK I5rtqTxyIvfZ/p4o7sMsbw==; X-AuditID: 0a5a2d17-bd5ff70000008b12-64-5ea197bc007f Received: from TELMBXC06BA020.telecomitalia.local ( [10.90.43.34]) by mx07.telecomitalia.it () with SMTP id AC.58.35602.CB791AE5; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 15:27:24 +0200 (CEST) From: "Bulgarella Fabio (Guest)" To: Dmitri Tikhonov CC: "Lubashev, Igor" , Ian Swett , Cociglio Mauro , "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" , "Riccardo Sisto" , "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" , "quic@ietf.org" , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" , Nilo Massimo Thread-Topic: [EXT] Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) Thread-Index: AQHWF/zfNwOq9+2pFU28gxDKDgXEdaiFgojx///ut4CAAT/o4Q== Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:27:23 +0000 Message-ID: <1587648443587.63341@guest.telecomitalia.it> References: <3ca3b5aae01d4650a3451639268b3f1e@TELMBXD14BA020.telecomitalia.local> <6b9e74ac94114d28ae4a66f1e9625ebd@usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com> <1587582698016.72632@guest.telecomitalia.it>, <20200422200530.GA11856@lubuntu> In-Reply-To: <20200422200530.GA11856@lubuntu> Accept-Language: it-IT, en-US Content-Language: it-IT X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [188.219.222.222] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrGIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXCFaWtpLtn+sI4g4ZJ8hbLfshbfJnAZvHz 3k5Wi6aGFcwWPQ/eMVtcOviR3aJnAbfFz9s72R04PCYfWcDssWBTqceSJT+ZPJ5sO87s0fLs JJvH6ZXFAWxRXDYpqTmZZalF+nYJXBlTf/axFCyRrJjbadzAeEeki5GTQ0LAROJ2dw97FyMX h5DAKkaJK9eXAjkcHGwCXhKz7yiDmCIChhL79iaDlDALbGeWaP/8nwWkV1ggTeLB1/mMILaI QLrE0VN9rBC2k8TSz0/AalgEVCU2rVjODGLzClhInN3yH2rXRiaJ6YeaGUEWcAroSnTvDASp YRSQlZiwexHYTGYBcYkX00+wQ9wpILFkz3lmCFtU4uXjf6wQtoHE1qX7WCBsZYnVd66xQvQa SLw/N58ZwtaWWLbwNdQNghInZ0LcJgT0+4eV51gmMIrNQrJuFpL2WUjaZyFpX8DIsopRNLfC wFyvJDUnNTk/N7MkMSczUS+zZBMjOCp1xXcwTtjwRu8QIxMH4yFGCQ5mJRHeDQ/nxQnxpiRW VqUW5ccXleakFh9ilOZgURLn3VW4ME5IID2xJDU7NbUgtQgmy8TBKdXAJFAnMP9sfrT0Mo47 M1e87V3HIT+bOTWi4Owl4/ALS+xnlX/pvSyXe+2Mwsxuje/H2VR8GDQKwmMvHj9/1PPVG98y +Z/FM+ft2G61PfL8fwU7Y6+XG8Pem3+Zemjm/AxmiykeTbcyLiwyTUhYntzFzM0f/FEo35or 80jjJOslfGUN6xzSOtdErTjwXNmhzFz0V9+90nrb/0fr042+Npx/khIfo/jjfc0Jg6X7ZtbG 3F/2YcLe7t3zv7f490XESl/6X3v88xceyVUPruz2eZ30996GpONtC587K4ezLKg8alW0ir1L 2S1hcVU9W4dh0L7L8xN2t65aetr8xW2hNIfUNnsNX51Gw8jsI7l3oqV7lFiKMxINtZiLihMB Cium0DkDAAA= Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 07:08:55 -0700 Subject: Re: [ippm] [EXT] Re: New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 13:27:30 -0000 Hello Dmitri,=0A= =0A= > I do not understand this part. Problems in which protocol=0A= > implementation do you mean -- the loss measurement protocol=0A= > or some other protocol? If the former, I do not understand=0A= > what you mean by "our portion of code:" Each implementer will=0A= > write his own code, with his own bugs.=0A= =0A= Sorry, I didn't explain this very well. What I meant was that the implement= ation of our solution is "untied" from the network protocol one.=0A= In QR logic there are no dependencies on internal protocol events (packet d= eclared lost) that can differ in different implementations.=0A= Changes in the network protocol implementation will not require any changes= in our logic. The same cannot be said for your solution.=0A= =0A= > I already covered this, but I believe it can bear restating:=0A= > Besides loss measurement, a probe should aid to locate the source=0A= > of the loss: upstream or downstream. A single QR probe cannot do it.=0A= > Do you not agree that locating loss source is one of the probe's goals?= =0A= =0A= It is more interesting to know if a problem occurs in our domain or outside= . And this is done by the Qbit (With 2 probes).=0A= However, it is not uncommon to be able to intercept the whole traffic of a = connection by observing a single point.=0A= In this case, all the necessary measurements can be made.=0A= =0A= Fabio B.=0A= =0A= =0A= ________________________________________=0A= Da: Dmitri Tikhonov =0A= Inviato: mercoled=EC 22 aprile 2020 22:05=0A= A: Bulgarella Fabio (Guest)=0A= Cc: Lubashev, Igor; Ian Swett; Cociglio Mauro; isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.co= m; Riccardo Sisto; alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com; quic@ietf.org; IETF IPPM = WG (ippm@ietf.org)=0A= Oggetto: [EXT] Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-= spinbit-measurements)=0A= =0A= Hello,=0A= =0A= On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 07:11:38PM +0000, Bulgarella Fabio (Guest) wrote:= =0A= > 4. First of all, our solution is not dependent on any specific protocol= =0A= > implementation unlike the QL and therefore there shouldn=92t be problems= =0A= > related to the quality of the implementation. In other words, our=0A= > portion of code is always the same, in every protocol implementation.=0A= =0A= I do not understand this part. Problems in which protocol=0A= implementation do you mean -- the loss measurement protocol=0A= or some other protocol? If the former, I do not understand=0A= what you mean by "our portion of code:" Each implementer will=0A= write his own code, with his own bugs.=0A= =0A= > Secondly, as anticipated in point 2, by observing only one direction=0A= > we can measure the losses in the operator's domain (Qbit) and the=0A= > end-to-end in the opposite direction (Rbit). So, our solution does work= =0A= > also for asymmetric path segments.=0A= =0A= I already covered this, but I believe it can bear restating:=0A= Besides loss measurement, a probe should aid to locate the source=0A= of the loss: upstream or downstream. A single QR probe cannot do it.=0A= Do you not agree that locating loss source is one of the probe's goals?=0A= =0A= - Dmitri.=0A= From nobody Thu Apr 23 09:41:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E330D3A0C08; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 09:41:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, GB_ABOUTYOU=0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pmF9QY58FyVg; 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Thu, 23 Apr 2020 17:41:34 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id 03NGWDud008098; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 12:41:33 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.30]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com with ESMTP id 30fvvva8yb-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 23 Apr 2020 12:41:31 -0400 Received: from usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.65) by usma1ex-dag1mb4.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.104) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 12:41:27 -0400 Received: from usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.65]) by usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.65]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.006; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 12:41:27 -0400 From: "Lubashev, Igor" To: "Bulgarella Fabio (Guest)" , Ian Swett , Cociglio Mauro CC: Riccardo Sisto , "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" , "quic@ietf.org" , "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Thread-Topic: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) Thread-Index: AdYNfRCPTsr9cJpyT2q4st79g+H+ngAiuRSAAlAHJ8AAbNOfAAAgNAaQ Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 16:41:27 +0000 Message-ID: <676f723b239b42ab9992780c440c5297@usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com> References: <3ca3b5aae01d4650a3451639268b3f1e@TELMBXD14BA020.telecomitalia.local> , <6b9e74ac94114d28ae4a66f1e9625ebd@usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com> <1587582698016.72632@guest.telecomitalia.it> In-Reply-To: <1587582698016.72632@guest.telecomitalia.it> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.112.94] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_676f723b239b42ab9992780c440c5297usma1exdag1mb6msgcorpak_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.676 definitions=2020-04-23_12:2020-04-23, 2020-04-23 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-2002250000 definitions=main-2004230128 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.676 definitions=2020-04-23_12:2020-04-23, 2020-04-23 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 clxscore=1011 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2004230128 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 16:41:43 -0000 --_004_676f723b239b42ab9992780c440c5297usma1exdag1mb6msgcorpak_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_676f723b239b42ab9992780c440c5297usma1exdag1mb6msgcorpak_" --_000_676f723b239b42ab9992780c440c5297usma1exdag1mb6msgcorpak_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fabio, thanks for the reply. * "Moreover, with a strong amount of reordering the Qbit (and the SpinB= it) would not work either." Strong reordering exists. That's why we are recommending the minimum Q to = be 64. This comes from real data, not lab data. If 5 packets were enough = to tell the end of marking periods, we would had recommended minimum Q to b= e 8. * R-bit signal delay. R signal is still going to be significantly delayed, especially with slower= connections (not every connection is going to be streaming media at a sust= ained rate of 15Mbps). So if for a 15Mbps average-rate connection you can = expect to see R-signal with a delay between 8-RTTs (1:2 ACK) and 38-RTTs (1= :10 ACK), the delay increases to 24-RTTs and 114-RTTs for a 5Mbps average-r= ate connection. * R-bit signal quality. L-bit signal provides a crisp shape of the loss - whether it is random loss= , or packets are lost of batches (and how many packets are in a loss batch)= . By contrast, R-signal only indicates an average loss over 2 to 10 Q-bit = marking periods. The share of the loss is erased. I think for that alone, L-signal is more useful for troubleshooting. * L-bit signal depends on each implementation's determination of when t= o "declare a packet lost" (which may differ for each implementation), while= R-signal depends only on more generic behaviors. This is an important difference, and it seems accurate on its surface. In = reality, every QUIC implementation will keep track of packets and declare t= hem lost for the purposes of data retransmission and/or congestion control.= The timing and details of when packets are declared lost (L-bit signal) w= ill vary. Likewise, every QUIC implementation will send some ACKs, but the= ir timing and frequency (R-signal) will vary. R-signal quality will also h= eavily depend on the "marking period detection" implementation quality and = "Q-signal averaging" implementation details. * End-to-end loss: "We can also place two independent observers whereve= r on the two directions and they will still produce coherent E2E measures." * End-to-end loss: "by observing only one direction we can measure the = [...] the end-to-end in the opposite direction (Rbit). Correct, as long as both endpoints implement the entire QR scheme (even if = this is an unusual setup - measuring path A requires observing path B). Also, accurate accounting with QR scheme requires correlation of both direc= tions, with the R-bit direction significantly lagging the Q-bit direction. = It should be understood how this scheme behaves in cases of changing Conne= ction IDs. Best wishes, * Igor From: Bulgarella Fabio (Guest) Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 3:12 PM To: Lubashev, Igor ; Ian Swett ; = Cociglio Mauro Cc: Riccardo Sisto ; isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.co= m; quic@ietf.org; alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.or= g) Subject: Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbi= t-measurements) Hello Igor, here some thoughts about your concerns. 1. If big differences in delay are present between two parallel paths on wh= ich the same connection is divided, this is certainly an unwanted behavior,= because it could create problems to the protocol itself even before damagi= ng the performance measurements. As a network operator, we try to avoid suc= h scenarios. However, our mechanism works correctly in most cases and is st= ill resistant to normal reordering. Moreover, with a strong amount of reord= ering the Qbit (and the SpinBit) would not work either. 2. It's true that your mechanism allows the measurement of E2E and upstream= loss of the observed direction. However, these measurement methodologies a= re born with the idea of providing information on the performance of the en= tire connection, as was done with the SpinBit. Actually with our mechanism,= when observing a single direction, we still are able to measure the E2E lo= ss of the opposite channel (using the R-bit). 3. The ACK ratio of 1:10 should only occur in the absence of loss. By intro= ducing loss, the ratio between ACK and data is certainly better. So the qua= lity of our signal improves just when it is needed; we don't care if we get= delayed measurements when everything is working great. This behavior is co= nfirmed by our laboratory tests where we have seen that loss can be easily = detected in an extremely accurate manner even in the case of highly unbalan= ced flows. L-Bit has an RTO delay but to evaluate an accurate loss ratio you have stil= l to observe a significant number of packets. 4. First of all, our solution is not dependent on any specific protocol imp= lementation unlike the QL and therefore there shouldn't be problems related= to the quality of the implementation. In other words, our portion of code = is always the same, in every protocol implementation. Secondly, as anticipated in point 2, by observing only one direction we can= measure the losses in the operator's domain (Qbit) and the end-to-end in t= he opposite direction (Rbit). So, our solution does work also for asymmetri= c path segments. We can also place two indipendent observers wherever on th= e two directions and they will still produce coherent E2E measures. The QL solution does not give any information about the opposite direction,= it only measures what it observes, that is the current direction. Having t= wo independent measures, one per direction, can be an advantage in some asp= ects, but a disadvantage for others. Best regards, Fabio B. ________________________________ Da: ippm per conto di Lubashev, Igor Inviato: marted=EC 21 aprile 2020 18:31 A: Ian Swett; Cociglio Mauro Cc: Riccardo Sisto; isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; quic@ietf.org; alexandre= .ferrieux@orange.com; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Oggetto: [EXT] Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-= spinbit-measurements) I like the QR draft from the perspective that it mostly works (and lots of = credit is due for things that work). I have a few concerns, though. 1. The most trivial one is that QR is actually harder to implement correctl= y for endpoints, given the tricky processing required to identify when a ma= rking interval has ended. Experimental data that Akamai & Orange compiled = shows that there are networks that do ECMP among links with significantly d= ifferent latencies. They will cause a lot more reordering to a burst of pa= ckets than the recommended "observe 5 packets (in a row?) of the opposite m= arkings" rule can address. You might need to potentially defer the decisio= n on where exactly the marking period boundary is until you've seen almost = half of the next marking period. Requiring every endpoint to implement thi= s right is tough. 2. Since the most important direction (at least for downloads and media str= eaming) is server-to-client, to get this signal with QR, you need both endp= oints implementing the logic, with the heaviest lift on the clients (see ab= ove). For QL, a client that does not want to implement QL logic but is ok = with the loss data reporting can just update the TP and header protection m= ask - all the lift is on the server side. 3. I am concerned with the quality of the signal you get from QR. While th= e upstream loss signal is strong (same Q-bit), the downstream/end-to-end lo= ss signal is weak and is likely to result in very delayed and inconclusive = signal. Google's experience (as I understand it) and protocol research (ht= tps://erg.abdn.ac.uk/~downloads/ackscaling.pdf) point to the benefit of ACK-ing only 1:10= packets after the initial slow start (draft-fairhurst-quic-ack-scaling). = Since such behavior has a beneficial impact on networks, mobile devices, an= d endpoint cpu, and no negative impact on the protocol performance, I expec= t it to be in common use. With 1:10 ACK ratio, R-bit signal is significant= ly delayed as it is lagging the loss by at least 1400*(Q=3D64)*2*10=3D1.8MB= of data transferred, which is at least 38 RTTs for a 15Mbps stream over a = 25ms link (L-bit signal is delayed by an RTO). 4. QR scheme only works for symmetric path segments, when the observer can = capture both directions of the flow. You also cannot compute end-to-end los= s in any direction, unless both endpoints implement the entire QR algorithm= . In contrast, QL works for single-direction observers, and whichever endp= oint implements QL algorithm ensures end-to-end loss signal for the packets= it sends, and the quality of that loss signal solely depends on the qualit= y of that endpoint's implementation (not the quality of the other endpoint'= s implementation). QL seems more deployable. * Igor From: Ian Swett Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 3:44 PM To: Cociglio Mauro Cc: quic@ietf.org; Lubashev, Igor ; alexandre.ferrieux= @orange.com; isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; Riccardo Sisto ; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Subject: Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbi= t-measurements) Thanks for sharing this. From my perspective, this is an improvement upon = the previous proposal in terms of robustness. This design feels very simil= ar to the spin bit, and seems trivial to implement, which are also nice pro= perties. Also, QUIC doesn't really have retransmissions, so the 'R bit' name always = made me a bit uncomfortable. I'm not saying QUIC should adopt this yet, but I'd be interested in seeing = a privacy analysis completed for it. Ian On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 4:25 AM Cociglio Mauro > wrote: Dear QUIC WG Members. We submitted to IPPM WG a draft where we described a new 2 bit packet loss = methodology (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurement= s-01). The measurement of packet loss is under discussion in QUIC WG and our draft= introduces two alternatives about it. The first one is a spin-bit dependent signal and uses a single bit. The sec= ond one, described in the following linked slides, is a standalone solution= based on a two bits loss signal and on alternate marking (RFC8321).. This last methodology improves, in our opinion, the algorithm proposed by O= range and Akamai described in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ferrieuxham= chaoui-quic-lossbits-03. The 2 bits are the sQuare bit (Q-bit) and the Reflection square bit (R-bit)= . The Q-bit doesn't change from the Ferrieux-Hamchaoui draft but the R-bit su= bstitutes the L-bit. This avoids the L-bit dependence from an internal protocol variable, a prob= lem raised in the last QUIC interim meeting. You can find the slides, we prepared for the IPPM interim meeting, at the f= ollowing link: https://github.com/ietf-ippm/meeting-materials/blob/aa486f7e= ad28b9f55c5ef499e5c9ed33ab06daf9/ietf107-virtual/Slides/07-spinbit-measurem= ents.pdf Comments and suggestions are always welcome. Of course we are available to present our proposals in the next QUIC WG mee= ting or to arrange a Webex side meeting if needed. Best regards. Mauro, Fabio, Giuseppe, Massimo and Riccardo _____________________ Mauro Cociglio TIM - CT.TA.EI Via G. Reiss Romoli, 274 10148 - Torino (Italy) Tel.: +390112285028 Mobile: +393357669751 _____________________ [Image removed by sender.] Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle per= sone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dall= a conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abb= iate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di dar= ne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione= , Grazie. This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged = information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, pri= nting or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended r= ecipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sen= der by return e-mail, Thanks.. Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =E8 necessario. _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --_000_676f723b239b42ab9992780c440c5297usma1exdag1mb6msgcorpak_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Fabio, thanks for the reply.

 

  • “Moreover, = with a strong amount of reordering the Qbit (and the SpinBit) would not wor= k either.”

 

Strong reordering exists.  That’s why we = are recommending the minimum Q to be 64.  This comes from real data, n= ot lab data.  If 5 packets were enough to tell the end of marking peri= ods, we would had recommended minimum Q to be 8.

 

 

  • R-bit signal dela= y.

 

R signal is still going to be significantly delayed,= especially with slower connections (not every connection is going to be st= reaming media at a sustained rate of 15Mbps).  So if for a 15Mbps aver= age-rate connection you can expect to see R-signal with a delay between 8-RTTs (1:2 ACK) and 38-RTTs (1:10 ACK), the= delay increases to 24-RTTs and 114-RTTs for a 5Mbps average-rate connectio= n.

 

  • R-bit signal qual= ity.

 

L-bit signal provides a crisp shape of the loss R= 11; whether it is random loss, or packets are lost of batches (and how many= packets are in a loss batch).  By contrast, R-signal only indicates a= n average loss over 2 to 10 Q-bit marking periods.  The share of the loss is erased.

 

I think for that alone, L-signal is more useful for = troubleshooting.

 

 

  • L-bit signal depe= nds on each implementation’s determination of when to “declare = a packet lost” (which may differ for each implementation), while R-si= gnal depends only on more generic behaviors.

 

This is an important difference, and it seems accura= te on its surface.  In reality, every QUIC implementation will keep tr= ack of packets and declare them lost for the purposes of data retransmissio= n and/or congestion control.  The timing and details of when packets are declared lost (L-bit signal) will vary.&nb= sp; Likewise, every QUIC implementation will send some ACKs, but their timi= ng and frequency (R-signal) will vary.  R-signal quality will also hea= vily depend on the “marking period detection” implementation quality and “Q-signal averaging” implementation= details.

 

 

  • End-to-end loss: = “We can also place two independent observers wherever on the two dire= ctions and they will still produce coherent E2E measures.”=
  • End-to-end l= oss: “by observing only one direction we can measure the […] th= e end-to-end in the opposite direction (Rbit).

 

Correct, as long as both endpoints implement the ent= ire QR scheme (even if this is an unusual setup – measuring path A re= quires observing path B).

 

Also, accurate accounting with QR scheme requires co= rrelation of both directions, with the R-bit direction significantly laggin= g the Q-bit direction.  It should be understood how this scheme behave= s in cases of changing Connection IDs.

 

Best wishes,

 

  • Igor

 

 

From: Bulgarella Fabio (Guest) <fabio.bulg= arella=3D40guest.telecomitalia.it@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 3:12 PM
To: Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Ian Swett <ianswe= tt@google.com>; Cociglio Mauro <mauro.cociglio@telecomitalia.it> Cc: Riccardo Sisto <riccardo.sisto@polito.it>; isabelle.hamcha= oui@orange.com; quic@ietf.org; alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com; IETF IPPM WG = (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm= -spinbit-measurements)

 

Hello I= gor,

here so= me thoughts about your concerns.

&n= bsp;

1. If b= ig differences in delay are present between two parallel paths on which the= same connection is divided, this is certainly an unwanted behavior, becaus= e it could create problems to the protocol itself even before damaging the performance measurements. As a network ope= rator, we try to avoid such scenarios. However, our mechanism works correct= ly in most cases and is still resistant to normal reordering. Moreover, wit= h a strong amount of reordering the Qbit (and the SpinBit) would not work either.

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

2. It's= true that your mechanism allows the measurement of E2E and upstream loss o= f the observed direction. However, these measurement methodologies are born= with the idea of providing information on the performance of the entire connection, as was done with the SpinBit.= Actually with our mechanism, when observing a single direction, we still a= re able to measure the E2E loss of the opposite channel (using the R-bit).<= o:p>

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

3. The = ACK ratio of 1:10 should only occur in the absence of loss. By introducing = loss, the ratio between ACK and data is certainly better. So the quality of= our signal improves just when it is needed; we don't care if we get delayed measurements when everything is wo= rking great. This behavior is confirmed by our laboratory tests where we ha= ve seen that loss can be easily detected in an extremely accurate manner ev= en in the case of highly unbalanced flows.

&n= bsp;

L-Bit h= as an RTO delay but to evaluate an accurate loss ratio you have still to ob= serve a significant number of packets.

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

4. Firs= t of all, our solution is not dependent on any specific protocol implementa= tion unlike the QL and therefore there shouldn’t be problems related = to the quality of the implementation. In other words, our portion of code is always the same, in every protocol implement= ation.

Secondl= y, as anticipated in point 2, by observing only one direction we can measur= e the losses in the operator's domain (Qbit) and the end-to-end in the oppo= site direction (Rbit). So, our solution does work also for asymmetric path segments. We can also place two indipen= dent observers wherever on the two directions and they will still produce c= oherent E2E measures.

&n= bsp;

The QL = solution does not give any information about the opposite direction, it onl= y measures what it observes, that is the current direction. Having two inde= pendent measures, one per direction, can be an advantage in some aspects, but a disadvantage for others.

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

Best re= gards,

Fabio B= .

&n= bsp;

 

Da: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> per conto di Lubas= hev, Igor <ilubashe=3D40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Inviato: marted=EC 21 aprile 2020 18:31
A: Ian Swett; Cociglio Mauro
Cc: Riccardo Sisto; isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; quic@ietf.org; al= exandre.ferrieux@orange.com; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)
Oggetto: [EXT] Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cf= b-ippm-spinbit-measurements)

 = ;

I like the QR draft fr= om the perspective that it mostly works (and lots of credit is due for thin= gs that work).

 

I have a few concerns,= though.

 

1. The most trivial on= e is that QR is actually harder to implement correctly for endpoints, given= the tricky processing required to identify when a marking interval has end= ed.  Experimental data that Akamai & Orange compiled shows that there are networks that do ECMP among links wit= h significantly different latencies.  They will cause a lot more reord= ering to a burst of packets than the recommended “observe 5 packets (= in a row?) of the opposite markings” rule can address.  You might need to potentially defer the decision on where e= xactly the marking period boundary is until you’ve seen almost half o= f the next marking period.  Requiring every endpoint to implement this= right is tough.

 

2. Since the most impo= rtant direction (at least for downloads and media streaming) is server-to-c= lient, to get this signal with QR, you need both endpoints implementing the= logic, with the heaviest lift on the clients (see above).  For QL, a client that does not want to implemen= t QL logic but is ok with the loss data reporting can just update the TP an= d header protection mask – all the lift is on the server side.

 

3. I am concerned with= the quality of the signal you get from QR.  While the upstream loss s= ignal is strong (same Q-bit), the downstream/end-to-end loss signal is weak= and is likely to result in very delayed and inconclusive signal.  Google’s experience (as I understand = it) and protocol research (https://erg.abdn.a= c.uk/~downloads/ackscaling.pdf) point to the benefit of ACK-ing only 1:10 packets after the initial slow s= tart (draft-fairhurst-quic-ack-scaling).  Since such behavior has a be= neficial impact on networks, mobile devices, and endpoint cpu, and no negat= ive impact on the protocol performance, I expect it to be in common use.  With 1:10 ACK ratio, R-bit signal i= s significantly delayed as it is lagging the loss by at least 1400*(Q=3D64)= *2*10=3D1.8MB of data transferred, which is at least 38 RTTs for a 15Mbps s= tream over a 25ms link (L-bit signal is delayed by an RTO).

 

4. QR scheme only work= s for symmetric path segments, when the observer can capture both direction= s of the flow. You also cannot compute end-to-end loss in any direction, un= less both endpoints implement the entire QR algorithm.  In contrast, QL works for single-direction observers, = and whichever endpoint implements QL algorithm ensures end-to-end loss sign= al for the packets it sends, and the quality of that loss signal solely dep= ends on the quality of that endpoint’s implementation (not the quality of the other endpoint’s implementati= on).  QL seems more deployable.

 

  • Igo= r

 

 

From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 3:44 PM
To: Cociglio Mauro <mauro.cociglio=3D40telecomitalia.it@dmarc.iet= f.org>
Cc: quic@ietf.org; Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; alexa= ndre.ferrieux@orange.com; isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; Riccardo Sisto <= ;riccardo.sisto@polito.it>; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.o= rg>
Subject: Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm= -spinbit-measurements)

 

Thanks for sharing thi= s.  From my perspective, this is an improvement upon the previous prop= osal in terms of robustness.  This design feels very similar to t= he spin bit, and seems trivial to implement, which are also nice properties.

 

Also, QUIC doesn't rea= lly have retransmissions, so the 'R bit' name always made me a bit uncomfor= table.

 

I'm not saying QUIC sh= ould adopt this yet, but I'd be interested in seeing a privacy analysis com= pleted for it.

 

Ian<= /p>

 

On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at= 4:25 AM Cociglio Mauro <mauro.cociglio=3D40telecomitalia.it@dmarc.ie= tf.org> wrote:

Dear = QUIC WG Members.

 = ;

We su= bmitted to IPPM WG a draft where we described a new 2 bit packet loss metho= dology (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cfb= -ippm-spinbit-measurements-01).

The measurement of packet loss is under discussion in QUIC WG a= nd our draft introduces two alternatives about it.

The first one is a spin-bit dependent signal and uses a single bit. The se= cond one, described in the following linked slides, is a standalone&nb= sp;solution based on a two bits loss signal and on alternate marking (RFC83= 21)..

This last methodology improves, in our opinion, the algorithm proposed by Orange and Akamai described= in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ferrieuxhamch= aoui-quic-lossbits-03.

 = ;

The 2 bits are th= e sQuare bit (Q-bit) and the Reflection square bit (R-bit).

The Q-bit doesn&#= 8217;t change from the Ferrieux-Hamchaoui draft but the R-bit substitutes t= he L-bit.

This avoids the L= -bit dependence from an internal protocol variable, a problem raised in the= last QUIC interim meeting.<= /o:p>

 = ;

You c= an find the slides, we prepared for the IPPM interim meeting, at the follow= ing link: = https://github.com/ietf-ippm/meeting-mater= ials/blob/aa486f7ead28b9f55c5ef499e5c9ed33ab06daf9/ietf107-virtual/Slides/0= 7-spinbit-measurements.pdf

 = ;

Comme= nts and suggestions are always welcome.

 = ;

Of co= urse we are available to present our proposals in the next QUIC WG meeting = or to arrange a Webex side meeting if needed.

 = ;

Best regards.=

 

Mauro, Fabio, Giuseppe, Massimo and Riccardo

 

 

__________= ___________

Mauro Coci= glio

TIM - CT.T= A.EI

Via G. Rei= ss Romoli, 274

10148 - To= rino (Italy)

Tel.: +390112285028

Mobile: +393357669751

__________= ___________

 

 

3D"Image

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This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileg= ed information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, = printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intende= d recipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sender by return e-mail, Thanks= ..

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--_000_676f723b239b42ab9992780c440c5297usma1exdag1mb6msgcorpak_-- --_004_676f723b239b42ab9992780c440c5297usma1exdag1mb6msgcorpak_ Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="~WRD000.jpg" Content-Description: ~WRD000.jpg Content-Disposition: inline; filename="~WRD000.jpg"; size=823; creation-date="Thu, 23 Apr 2020 14:33:45 GMT"; modification-date="Thu, 23 Apr 2020 14:33:45 GMT" Content-ID: <~WRD000.jpg> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEAYABgAAD/2wBDAAgGBgcGBQgHBwcJCQgKDBQNDAsLDBkSEw8UHRofHh0a HBwgJC4nICIsIxwcKDcpLDAxNDQ0Hyc5PTgyPC4zNDL/2wBDAQkJCQwLDBgNDRgyIRwhMjIyMjIy MjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjL/wAARCABkAGQDASIA AhEBAxEB/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtRAAAgEDAwIEAwUFBAQA AAF9AQIDAAQRBRIhMUEGE1FhByJxFDKBkaEII0KxwRVS0fAkM2JyggkKFhcYGRolJicoKSo0NTY3 ODk6Q0RFRkdISUpTVFVWV1hZWmNkZWZnaGlqc3R1dnd4eXqDhIWGh4iJipKTlJWWl5iZmqKjpKWm p6ipqrKztLW2t7i5usLDxMXGx8jJytLT1NXW19jZ2uHi4+Tl5ufo6erx8vP09fb3+Pn6/8QAHwEA AwEBAQEBAQEBAQAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtREAAgECBAQDBAcFBAQAAQJ3AAECAxEEBSEx BhJBUQdhcRMiMoEIFEKRobHBCSMzUvAVYnLRChYkNOEl8RcYGRomJygpKjU2Nzg5OkNERUZHSElK U1RVVldYWVpjZGVmZ2hpanN0dXZ3eHl6goOEhYaHiImKkpOUlZaXmJmaoqOkpaanqKmqsrO0tba3 uLm6wsPExcbHyMnK0tPU1dbX2Nna4uPk5ebn6Onq8vP09fb3+Pn6/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwD3+iii gAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKA CiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAK KKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAoo ooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKACiiigD//2Q== --_004_676f723b239b42ab9992780c440c5297usma1exdag1mb6msgcorpak_-- From nobody Sun Apr 26 09:02:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietf.org Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D155D3A0BF2; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 14:16:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Liaison Statement Management Tool To: "Ian Swett" , "Tommy Pauly" Cc: Curtis Knittle , Magnus Westerlund , david.sinicrope@ericsson.com, April Nowicki , Tommy Pauly , Karthik Sundaresan , Martin Duke , Ian Swett , Dave Sinicrope , Lincoln Lavoie , Greg Mirsky , Greg White , Robin Mersh , Liaisons at BBF , Secretariat of ITU-T SG12 , IP Performance Measurement Discussion List X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.127.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158776296570.19733.7241057273840489864@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 14:16:05 -0700 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 09:02:18 -0700 Subject: [ippm] New Liaison Statement, "Quality Experience Delivered program" X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 21:16:06 -0000 Title: Quality Experience Delivered program Submission Date: 2020-04-24 URL of the IETF Web page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1679/ From: Lincoln Lavoie To: Tommy Pauly ,Ian Swett Cc: Ian Swett ,Magnus Westerlund ,IP Performance Measurement Discussion List ,Tommy Pauly ,Dave Sinicrope ,Martin Duke ,Liaisons at BBF ,Lincoln Lavoie ,Robin Mersh ,April Nowicki ,Greg Mirsky ,Secretariat of ITU-T SG12 ,Curtis Knittle ,Karthik Sundaresan ,Greg White Response Contacts: david.sinicrope@ericsson.com Technical Contacts: Purpose: For information Body: There is increasing interest across the industry in better understanding, measuring and managing the effects of statistical multiplexing, particularly as it impacts latency. We are aware of your efforts in this direction and believe that you will be interested to know that the Broadband Forum has an ongoing program of work relating to this within the Performance, Experience, and Application Testing (PEAT) project stream under the Access and Transport Architecture Work Area. This program is called “Quality Experience Deliveredâ€, and is outlined in the Broadband Forum Marketing Report MR-452.1: Motivation for Quality Verified Broadband Services, which can be accessed here: https://www.broadband-forum.org/marketing/download/MR- 452.1.pdf. The Broadband Forum is developing further Marketing Reports on this topic, and also a number of Technical Reports that will provide normative recommendations. These Technical Reports will cover: • A reference model for quality attenuation measurements to set requirements against and define interoperability; • A set of specifications for performing quality attenuation measurements in a ‘frictionless’ way, using established mechanisms (e.g. TR-390); • A definition of a conformance test to establish the correctness of a quality attenuation measurement implementation. We anticipate starting the approval process in May. For further information contact info@broadband-forum.org. Sincerely, Lincoln Lavoie, Broadband Forum Technical Committee Chair Attachments: LIAISE-386-04 https://www.ietf.org/lib/dt/documents/LIAISON/liaison-2020-04-24-broadband-forum-ippm-quality-experience-delivered-program-attachment-1.pdf From nobody Mon Apr 27 08:47:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D4353A0CE7 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 08:30:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=litespeedtech-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CGo8DC7OqB9c for ; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 08:30:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x735.google.com (mail-qk1-x735.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::735]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 722B13A0D18 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 08:30:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x735.google.com with SMTP id o19so18393425qkk.5 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 08:30:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=litespeedtech-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references :mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=AvZYx4mQ1lFBKh6DFIb2elv3R6LhCk1QQ13tTf+oLwk=; b=IDD/Dn8vaDrqNrJK17VYxpcl5/M5bGth/KAo3KFMnJaKFc+cE1ZQuOkh2LthKy2q70 G2fL3jIunH8W3GF1vYwgkFi3XlwsAJJ3Fuw9RlxR4ZaONBVcvg31BM+6TAZhtQDvXtmq kF49uWH84IWa81pfuAC3TkWCP7TsRXr0uuHmM7mSyns3Ur+FO1Uq3M5arNDdZIAq4Wen QVVrQG0UQplI5W+tRuREqzAmKPuBMNNJZbQf22HsbWXnljTlM3W9+P75vzyBx3/TXGkw HCVPjaFafsa6qqWtcF7h8/Rw7n/TLEoqqYOzfBjvKHdijjnGwfj4SpKCCgu1+kEM3G+l ISfw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:content-disposition :in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=AvZYx4mQ1lFBKh6DFIb2elv3R6LhCk1QQ13tTf+oLwk=; b=tc7s/qKa8OkAZRSMRMPEaGRgJ2+NiYZoWQp8KHjCPkvaejeo+AeyDTYybQIrB3mcUo 5I9yA3rD1bGmlm5WJ/eqF25tIfC9799THNgP9SfhMPE5UEZ/U7xXtRSzikg55we+N+4B a6PJU0afG2YKoZsCPV1gCutYjNqFyaqz1FgOmfzWxkR73R2JWLlUCqIESNQssXN3kXzE FIHvraU5sig3pMssJcZ/5oj3j0Ppy3lfoQlIKJXHR5TkxWc1+xM+b9logJB5hA+TzKGG yzsU412+MhPgzxCQrDOMxfOqCKv8PAQjO6iE3mzkYypJ4vJIFNeiZeToUCmF5N9T4bEq mgQQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubO48ISHbGEghXBxvCsYK4PzmOTs0dmlyL4nXbKNgOias7yxPWR Q8yPrZK0U1TR7rMW2HvQfgkGeg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIU4UO6Ge4KFuJReBrxzenZoM+1QvMhrCnTuQbI9JWS561O/1rssFpr6EAc0bMZzLrPDaywXQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:22ab:: with SMTP id p11mr23438057qkh.373.1588001403329; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 08:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lubuntu (ool-44c1d219.dyn.optonline.net. [68.193.210.25]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y72sm10690288qkb.86.2020.04.27.08.30.02 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 27 Apr 2020 08:30:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 11:29:58 -0400 From: Dmitri Tikhonov To: "Bulgarella Fabio (Guest)" Cc: "Lubashev, Igor" , Ian Swett , Cociglio Mauro , "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" , Riccardo Sisto , "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" , "quic@ietf.org" , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" , Nilo Massimo Message-ID: <20200427152957.GC24088@lubuntu> Mail-Followup-To: "Bulgarella Fabio (Guest)" , "Lubashev, Igor" , Ian Swett , Cociglio Mauro , "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" , Riccardo Sisto , "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" , "quic@ietf.org" , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" , Nilo Massimo References: <3ca3b5aae01d4650a3451639268b3f1e@TELMBXD14BA020.telecomitalia.local> <6b9e74ac94114d28ae4a66f1e9625ebd@usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com> <1587582698016.72632@guest.telecomitalia.it> <20200422200530.GA11856@lubuntu> <1587648443587.63341@guest.telecomitalia.it> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1587648443587.63341@guest.telecomitalia.it> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 08:47:32 -0700 Subject: Re: [ippm] [EXT] Re: New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 15:30:06 -0000 Hello Fabio, On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 01:27:23PM +0000, Bulgarella Fabio (Guest) wrote: > > Do you not agree that locating loss source is one of the probe's goals? > > It is more interesting to know if a problem occurs in our domain or > outside. And this is done by the Qbit (With 2 probes). Consider the following setup: Client ... (OpA) ... (OpB) ... (OpC) ... Server We are OpB, and Client's and Server's lawyers are banging at our door with a legally binding SLA signed with our blood. What do you think is a realistic way of getting rid of the situation: a) Here are captures that prove that loss is in OpC, or in your premises, Mr Server. b) Here are captures that have no losses in OpA or OpB. Have a good day. Since a unidirectional QR capture does not include any evidence of loss downstream, it would be dismissed by the Server lawyers as just not capturing the right traffic. An equivalent packet dump with TCP would include evidence of loss in the form of packet retransmission, and so would QL scheme. Simultaneous captures by different organizations are often hard to coordinate, especially for problems that do not reproduce all the time. At any given point of the investigation, you depend only on your own local resources and need to be able to provide evidence that makes sense to everybody. > However, it is not uncommon to be able to intercept the whole traffic > of a connection by observing a single point. In this case, all the > necessary measurements can be made. How common is "not uncommon:" 90%? 50%? Here is a study that shows how common symmetric flows are: out of six observations of four different Internet links, the percentage of symmetric flows was 57%, 7%, 2%, 3%, 2%, and 3%: https://www.caida.org/research/traffic-analysis/asymmetry/ The way routing works is asymmetric in essence, as the destination decides what it announces, which leads to the way to reach it. When you revert the arrow, the source cannot but just follow the routes. The result is a high prevalence of asymmetric routing. - Dmitri. 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28 Apr 2020 15:50:57 +0200 (CEST) From: "Bulgarella Fabio (Guest)" To: "Lubashev, Igor" , Ian Swett , "draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements@ietf.org" CC: "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" , "quic@ietf.org" , "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Thread-Topic: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) Thread-Index: AQHWF/zfNwOq9+2pFU28gxDKDgXEdaiFgojxgAFIB4CAB8qYTQ== Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 13:50:57 +0000 Message-ID: <1588081856900.50391@guest.telecomitalia.it> References: <3ca3b5aae01d4650a3451639268b3f1e@TELMBXD14BA020.telecomitalia.local> , <6b9e74ac94114d28ae4a66f1e9625ebd@usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com> <1587582698016.72632@guest.telecomitalia.it>, <676f723b239b42ab9992780c440c5297@usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <676f723b239b42ab9992780c440c5297@usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com> Accept-Language: it-IT, en-US Content-Language: it-IT X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 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