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([172.27.123.105]) by usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.105]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.006; Sat, 9 May 2020 02:00:11 -0400 From: "Lubashev, Igor" To: "Bulgarella Fabio (Guest)" , Ian Swett , "draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements@ietf.org" CC: "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" , "quic@ietf.org" , "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Thread-Topic: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) Thread-Index: AdYNfRCPTsr9cJpyT2q4st79g+H+ngAiuRSAAlAHJ8AAbNOfAAAgNAaQAQJYd4ACD1TrQA== Date: Sat, 9 May 2020 06:00:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3ca3b5aae01d4650a3451639268b3f1e@TELMBXD14BA020.telecomitalia.local> , <6b9e74ac94114d28ae4a66f1e9625ebd@usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com> <1587582698016.72632@guest.telecomitalia.it>, <676f723b239b42ab9992780c440c5297@usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com> <1588081856900.50391@guest.telecomitalia.it> In-Reply-To: <1588081856900.50391@guest.telecomitalia.it> Accept-Language: en-US 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mlxlogscore=999 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2003020000 definitions=main-2005090054 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 May 2020 06:00:26 -0000 RmFiaW8sDQoNCkkgdGhpbmsgd2UgYXJlIGluIGEgY29tcGxldGUgYWdyZWVtZW50IHRoYXQgYW55 IGxvc3MgcmVwb3J0aW5nIGlzIGEgdmVyeSB1c2VmdWwgZXh0ZW5zaW9uIOKAkyBib3RoIGZvciBt b25pdG9yaW5nIHRoZSBuZXR3b3JrIGFuZCBmb3IgdHJvdWJsZXNob290aW5nIGluZGl2aWR1YWwg Zmxvd3MuIEkgdGhpbmsgd2UgYWdyZWUgdGhhdCBMLWJpdCBhbmQgUi1iaXQgYXJlIGJldHRlciB0 aGFuIG5vdGhpbmcuICBUaGUgZGlzYWdyZWVtZW50IGlzIGFib3V0IHRoZSByZWxhdGl2ZSBmaXRu ZXNzIGZvciB0aGUgcHVycG9zZSBhbmQgZWFzZSBvZiBkZXBsb3lhYmlsaXR5Lg0KDQpJIHdvdWxk 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Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Hop Count in IOAM Direct Exporting X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 05:49:54 -0000 Hi, This issue has been raised a number of times, but we have not been able to get a clear answer from the working group so far, and this is the major remaining issue in draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ioamteam-ippm-ioam-direct-export-00 The issue is whether to add an explicit Hop Count field to the Direct Exporting header, or to rely on the existing Hop_Lim data field which has already been defined in draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data. We would like to solicit comments from the WG and a clear opinion about whether you support option 1 or option 2: Option 1: use an explicit Hop Count field. Option 2: use the existing Hop_Lim data field. Thanks, Tal. The pros / cons of each option is presented in Section 7 of draft-ioamteam-ippm-ioam-direct-export-00 as follows: o Hop Limit / Hop Count: in order to help correlate and order the exported packets, it is possible to include a 1-octet Hop Count field in the DEX header (presumably by claiming some space from the Flags field). Its value starts from 0 at the encapsulating node and is incremented by each IOAM transit node that supports the DEX option. The Hop Count field value is also included in the exported packet. An alternative approach is to use the Hop_Lim/ Node_ID data field; if the IOAM-Trace-Type [I-D.ietf-ippm-ioam-data] has the Hop_Lim/Node_ID bit set, then exported packets include the Hop_Lim/Node_ID data field, which contains the TTL/Hop Limit value from a lower layer protocol. The main advantage of the Hop_Lim/Node_ID approach is that it provides information about the current hop count without requiring each transit node to modify the DEX option, thus simplifying the data plane functionality of Direct Exporting. The main advantage of the Hop Count approach is that it counts the number of IOAM- capable nodes without relying on the lower layer TTL, especially when the lower layer cannot prvide the accurate TTL information, e.g., Layer 2 Ethernet or hierarchical VPN. It also explicitly allows to detect a case where an IOAM-capable node fails to export packets to the collector. In order to facilitate the Hop Count approach it is possible to use a flag to indicate an optional Hop Count field, which enables to control the tradeoff. On one hand it addresses the use cases that the Hop_Lim/Node_ID cannot cover, and on the other hand it does not require transit switches to update the option if it is not supported or disabled. Further discussion is required about the tradeoff between the two alternatives. 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Mon, 11 May 2020 18:18:00 +0000 From: Haoyu Song To: Tal Mizrahi , IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: [ippm] Hop Count in IOAM Direct Exporting Thread-Index: AQHWJ1gscDqlKK0fkUOpW73p4dgC1qijKpww Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 18:17:59 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=futurewei.com; x-originating-ip: [69.149.42.153] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 919ba131-9de9-4922-eb56-08d7f5d7a349 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM6PR13MB3355: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 04004D94E2 x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 919ba131-9de9-4922-eb56-08d7f5d7a349 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 May 2020 18:18:00.0210 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: sJfD7hfyGDU02c5SrNzJ9tJT2kynzdD56pHz+ZeZK8EqDiSuC2a5LFZA3B2QXmlGCpFmmCglBObfN2/idIx+hw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR13MB3355 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Hop Count in IOAM Direct Exporting X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 18:18:06 -0000 Hi WG, "Hop Count" or the equivalent information is important to help correlate th= e export data and ensure the completeness of the export data. =09 Modifying the IOAM DEX option header (by incrementing the hop count) seems = undesirable, but this is just a simple operation, and it's faster than tryi= ng to retrieve information from elsewhere.=20 The alternative approach of using TTL is unreliable for the following reaso= ns. 1. Depending on the application scenario, the TTL may not be available or b= e hard to retrieve. (e.g., Layer 2, tunnel, etc.) 2. TTL, if exists, is updated per hop. The "hop count" is updated per IOAM = DEX-enabled nodes. These two numbers are not equivalent. E.g.,=20 if TTL is used, two DEX export packets from different nodes reports two TTL= numbers 7 and 4, one will have no clue if this is because one or more export packets are dropped, or some IOAM-DEX enabled nodes don't respond, o= r some nodes on the path are not IOAM-DEX enabled. =20 If we can address the above issues, then the explicit "hop count" is not ne= eded.=20 Best regards, Haoyu =20 -----Original Message----- From: ippm On Behalf Of Tal Mizrahi Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 10:50 PM To: IETF IPPM WG Subject: [ippm] Hop Count in IOAM Direct Exporting Hi, This issue has been raised a number of times, but we have not been able to = get a clear answer from the working group so far, and this is the major rem= aining issue in draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export. https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.i= etf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ioamteam-ippm-ioam-direct-export-00&data=3D02%7C= 01%7Chaoyu.song%40futurewei.com%7C59cddc7f25c14c51d39b08d7f56f4ce3%7C0fee8f= f2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637247730711329608&sdata=3DptNRYLf= lJtmTvx5G16yLSxTG2IHFG%2FCoMaPKcN3GViU%3D&reserved=3D0 The issue is whether to add an explicit Hop Count field to the Direct Expor= ting header, or to rely on the existing Hop_Lim data field which has alread= y been defined in draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data. We would like to solicit comments from the WG and a clear opinion about whe= ther you support option 1 or option 2: Option 1: use an explicit Hop Count field. Option 2: use the existing Hop_Lim data field. Thanks, Tal. The pros / cons of each option is presented in Section 7 of draft-ioamteam-ippm-ioam-direct-export-00 as follows: o Hop Limit / Hop Count: in order to help correlate and order the exported packets, it is possible to include a 1-octet Hop Count field in the DEX header (presumably by claiming some space from the Flags field). Its value starts from 0 at the encapsulating node and is incremented by each IOAM transit node that supports the DEX option. The Hop Count field value is also included in the exported packet. An alternative approach is to use the Hop_Lim/ Node_ID data field; if the IOAM-Trace-Type [I-D.ietf-ippm-ioam-data] has the Hop_Lim/Node_ID bit set, then exported packets include the Hop_Lim/Node_ID data field, which contains the TTL/Hop Limit value from a lower layer protocol. The main advantage of the Hop_Lim/Node_ID approach is that it provides information about the current hop count without requiring each transit node to modify the DEX option, thus simplifying the data plane functionality of Direct Exporting. The main advantage of the Hop Count approach is that it counts the number of IOAM- capable nodes without relying on the lower layer TTL, especially when the lower layer cannot prvide the accurate TTL information, e.g., Layer 2 Ethernet or hierarchical VPN. It also explicitly allows to detect a case where an IOAM-capable node fails to export packets to the collector. In order to facilitate the Hop Count approach it is possible to use a flag to indicate an optional Hop Count field, which enables to control the tradeoff. On one hand it addresses the use cases that the Hop_Lim/Node_ID cannot cover, and on the other hand it does not require transit switches to update the option if it is not supported or disabled. Further discussion is required about the tradeoff between the two alternatives. _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.iet= f.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fippm&data=3D02%7C01%7Chaoyu.song%40futurew= ei.com%7C59cddc7f25c14c51d39b08d7f56f4ce3%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fed= c%7C1%7C0%7C637247730711329608&sdata=3DqHRMJtgDAFuzoDes7x%2BXzIot3naFmt= y2LiznAL4JcA8%3D&reserved=3D0 From nobody Mon May 11 11:28:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83F233A0BC4 for ; Mon, 11 May 2020 11:28:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KaXBwbSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCmlwcG1AaWV0Zi5vcmcNCmh0dHBz Oi8vbmFtMTEuc2FmZWxpbmtzLnByb3RlY3Rpb24ub3V0bG9vay5jb20vP3VybD1odHRwcyUzQSUy RiUyRnd3dy5pZXRmLm9yZyUyRm1haWxtYW4lMkZsaXN0aW5mbyUyRmlwcG0mYW1wO2RhdGE9MDIl N0MwMSU3Q2hhb3l1LnNvbmclNDBmdXR1cmV3ZWkuY29tJTdDMmQ5NmVlNTQ2ZTE1NGQyNzhmM2Uw OGQ3ZjVkYzVmMTElN0MwZmVlOGZmMmEzYjI0MDE4OWM3NTNhMWQ1NTkxZmVkYyU3QzElN0MwJTdD NjM3MjQ4MTk5MTU0Nzk0MjgzJmFtcDtzZGF0YT1LYkt4UyUyQkJYcDVTREo4Um9HWHpleUQlMkY3 MWFuVDclMkJUZ2djWHFHT3NiVndJJTNEJmFtcDtyZXNlcnZlZD0wDQo= From nobody Mon May 11 12:57:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69F693A0CA8 for ; Mon, 11 May 2020 12:57:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, 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h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5YKu3Wt4rhceyI4ZixwiwdcWBw+mxF+khYWcYIjDZ/U=; b=LtsBxQ9CYsGeiAMoz2vYNJwAmuozquXfDUz+Wx+iezS8p2m+4/WCC12mHx0VdHKua7 ie/htfB+awR/Wc10bs6MGGoZ7YhAonRpDu4OmPYWf7sdfz0hNTpTd6239XGhUJt3ItrZ 2Sa99hbys2c+gmhf4SPFVKWmx7CI/MXbbAADE= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5YKu3Wt4rhceyI4ZixwiwdcWBw+mxF+khYWcYIjDZ/U=; b=H6I8P/Qx8IrL4t/SA0N1Z75Y7ol/FoFjaoL0k6fKwIkHI58H/UdWOLiti2BQsG9tDI Bg6TRcX6rIQtck0WcbR4mMljvHwXycI4FoAu9PujguwGhxyd8v9KskY2A/e5V3rK30AL A3aZm7IOqQPbbf4BstzH5dO/WcYRNGB1/6Kz6pVW2KqH+6M7FNwQesr14UC/ZC4VJt15 Cz2ST5z3sblt+qtFdWAB2IuEsNvxQmPf0BCUmVNzjKRmN9xbJGZ7f01sXErhCPCqcPXl FYX7RxSbEuzNC/Z15owEo77/UhOh7yN/82FAZZBQOluwBg9Vhx4FA1rnTe7SxJnyK+Fn IXJg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYzb5+Dd+mOxjsu5/88SuRPkbXaxmuP3cIl5oiqegHpQGv8ZW3+ krxMPerLgduj44jMCaG6IeyQG6tuqlBkGKx+4CqhaA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJ0ipjqR8vo6v4bLwZRSARI75FMOM9Ip8xM9jYmpNIqzW5oqzbJdBLjoAG7kuKDmdLfhvmweJI8XPXUsn15EF0= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:2054:: with SMTP id pg20mr14098902ejb.127.1589227037001; Mon, 11 May 2020 12:57:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Mickey Spiegel Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 12:57:06 -0700 Message-ID: To: Haoyu Song Cc: Tal Mizrahi , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000021ed805a564c1a7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Hop Count in IOAM Direct Exporting X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 19:57:21 -0000 --000000000000021ed805a564c1a7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Haoyu, You are trying to position this as anything providing any amount of incremental value is worth it. I don't agree with that. This is a judgement call, balancing the pros and cons before coming up with a final decision. While the Hop Count that you are proposing does have value in some corner cases and complex deployment scenarios, it does not add value in the majority of common cases and deployment scenarios. In an L3 network where every node supports IOAM there is no benefit. When the topology is known there is no benefit. Moreover, there is a clear cost, making transit devices modify the header when it would otherwise be unnecessary. I prefer option 2, using the existing Hop_Lim data field. Mickey On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:18 AM Haoyu Song wrote: > Hi WG, > > "Hop Count" or the equivalent information is important to help correlate > the export data and ensure the completeness of the export data. > > Modifying the IOAM DEX option header (by incrementing the hop count) seem= s > undesirable, but this is just a simple operation, and it's faster than > trying to retrieve information from elsewhere. > > The alternative approach of using TTL is unreliable for the following > reasons. > 1. Depending on the application scenario, the TTL may not be available or > be hard to retrieve. (e.g., Layer 2, tunnel, etc.) > 2. TTL, if exists, is updated per hop. The "hop count" is updated per IOA= M > DEX-enabled nodes. These two numbers are not equivalent. E.g., > if TTL is used, two DEX export packets from different nodes reports two > TTL numbers 7 and 4, one will have no clue if this is because one or more > export packets are dropped, or some IOAM-DEX enabled nodes don't respond, > or some nodes on the path are not IOAM-DEX enabled. > > If we can address the above issues, then the explicit "hop count" is not > needed. > > Best regards, > Haoyu > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ippm On Behalf Of Tal Mizrahi > Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 10:50 PM > To: IETF IPPM WG > Subject: [ippm] Hop Count in IOAM Direct Exporting > > Hi, > > This issue has been raised a number of times, but we have not been able t= o > get a clear answer from the working group so far, and this is the major > remaining issue in draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export. > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools= .ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ioamteam-ippm-ioam-direct-export-00&data=3D02%= 7C01%7Chaoyu.song%40futurewei.com%7C59cddc7f25c14c51d39b08d7f56f4ce3%7C0fee= 8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637247730711329608&sdata=3DptNRY= LflJtmTvx5G16yLSxTG2IHFG%2FCoMaPKcN3GViU%3D&reserved=3D0 > > The issue is whether to add an explicit Hop Count field to the Direct > Exporting header, or to rely on the existing Hop_Lim data field which has > already been defined in draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data. > > We would like to solicit comments from the WG and a clear opinion about > whether you support option 1 or option 2: > Option 1: use an explicit Hop Count field. > Option 2: use the existing Hop_Lim data field. > > Thanks, > Tal. > > > The pros / cons of each option is presented in Section 7 of > draft-ioamteam-ippm-ioam-direct-export-00 as follows: > > o Hop Limit / Hop Count: in order to help correlate and order the > exported packets, it is possible to include a 1-octet Hop Count > field in the DEX header (presumably by claiming some space from > the Flags field). Its value starts from 0 at the encapsulating > node and is incremented by each IOAM transit node that supports > the DEX option. The Hop Count field value is also included in the > exported packet. An alternative approach is to use the Hop_Lim/ > Node_ID data field; if the IOAM-Trace-Type > [I-D.ietf-ippm-ioam-data] has the Hop_Lim/Node_ID bit set, then > exported packets include the Hop_Lim/Node_ID data field, which > contains the TTL/Hop Limit value from a lower layer protocol. The > main advantage of the Hop_Lim/Node_ID approach is that it provides > information about the current hop count without requiring each > transit node to modify the DEX option, thus simplifying the data > plane functionality of Direct Exporting. The main advantage of > the Hop Count approach is that it counts the number of IOAM- > capable nodes without relying on the lower layer TTL, especially > when the lower layer cannot prvide the accurate TTL information, > e.g., Layer 2 Ethernet or hierarchical VPN. It also explicitly > allows to detect a case where an IOAM-capable node fails to export > packets to the collector. In order to facilitate the Hop Count > approach it is possible to use a flag to indicate an optional Hop > Count field, which enables to control the tradeoff. On one hand > it addresses the use cases that the Hop_Lim/Node_ID cannot cover, > and on the other hand it does not require transit switches to > update the option if it is not supported or disabled. Further > discussion is required about the tradeoff between the two > alternatives. > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.i= etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fippm&data=3D02%7C01%7Chaoyu.song%40futur= ewei.com%7C59cddc7f25c14c51d39b08d7f56f4ce3%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591f= edc%7C1%7C0%7C637247730711329608&sdata=3DqHRMJtgDAFuzoDes7x%2BXzIot3naF= mty2LiznAL4JcA8%3D&reserved=3D0 > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > --000000000000021ed805a564c1a7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Haoyu,

You are trying to pos= ition this as anything providing any amount of incremental value is worth i= t. I don't agree with that. This is a judgement call, balancing the pro= s and cons before coming up with a final decision.

While the Hop Count that you are proposing does have value in some corner = cases and complex deployment scenarios, it does not add value in the majori= ty of common cases and deployment scenarios. In an L3 network where every n= ode supports IOAM there is no benefit. When the topology is known there is = no benefit. Moreover, there is a clear cost, making transit devices modify = the header when it would otherwise be unnecessary.

I prefer option 2, using the existing Hop_Lim data field.

Mickey

On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:18 AM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com> wrote:
Hi WG,

"Hop Count" or the equivalent information is important to help co= rrelate the export data and ensure the completeness of the export data.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0

Modifying the IOAM DEX option header (by incrementing the hop count) seems = undesirable, but this is just a simple operation, and it's faster than = trying to retrieve information from elsewhere.

The alternative approach of using TTL is unreliable for the following reaso= ns.
1. Depending on the application scenario, the TTL may not be available or b= e hard to retrieve. (e.g., Layer 2, tunnel, etc.)
2. TTL, if exists, is updated per hop. The "hop count" is updated= per IOAM DEX-enabled nodes. These two numbers are not equivalent. E.g., if TTL is used, two DEX export packets from different nodes reports two TTL= numbers 7 and 4, one will have no clue if this is because one or more
export packets are dropped, or some IOAM-DEX enabled nodes don't respon= d, or some nodes on the path are not IOAM-DEX enabled.=C2=A0

If we can address the above issues, then the explicit "hop count"= is not needed.

Best regards,
Haoyu


-----Original Message-----
From: ippm <i= ppm-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Tal Mizrahi
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 10:50 PM
To: IETF IPPM WG <ipp= m@ietf.org>
Subject: [ippm] Hop Count in IOAM Direct Exporting

Hi,

This issue has been raised a number of times, but we have not been able to = get a clear answer from the working group so far, and this is the major rem= aining issue in draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export.
https://nam11.safelinks.protec= tion.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ioamtea= m-ippm-ioam-direct-export-00&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Chaoyu.song%40futurewe= i.com%7C59cddc7f25c14c51d39b08d7f56f4ce3%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc= %7C1%7C0%7C637247730711329608&amp;sdata=3DptNRYLflJtmTvx5G16yLSxTG2IHFG= %2FCoMaPKcN3GViU%3D&amp;reserved=3D0

The issue is whether to add an explicit Hop Count field to the Direct Expor= ting header, or to rely on the existing Hop_Lim data field which has alread= y been defined in draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data.

We would like to solicit comments from the WG and a clear opinion about whe= ther you support option 1 or option 2:
Option 1: use an explicit Hop Count field.
Option 2: use the existing Hop_Lim data field.

Thanks,
Tal.


The pros / cons of each option is presented in Section 7 of
draft-ioamteam-ippm-ioam-direct-export-00 as follows:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Hop Limit / Hop Count: in order to help correlate and = order the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 exported packets, it is possible to include a 1-octet = Hop Count
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 field in the DEX header (presumably by claiming some s= pace from
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the Flags field).=C2=A0 Its value starts from 0 at the= encapsulating
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 node and is incremented by each IOAM transit node that= supports
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the DEX option.=C2=A0 The Hop Count field value is als= o included in the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 exported packet.=C2=A0 An alternative approach is to u= se the Hop_Lim/
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Node_ID data field; if the IOAM-Trace-Type
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-ippm-ioam-data] has the Hop_Lim/Node_ID bit = set, then
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 exported packets include the Hop_Lim/Node_ID data fiel= d, which
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 contains the TTL/Hop Limit value from a lower layer pr= otocol.=C2=A0 The
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 main advantage of the Hop_Lim/Node_ID approach is that= it provides
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 information about the current hop count without requir= ing each
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 transit node to modify the DEX option, thus simplifyin= g the data
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 plane functionality of Direct Exporting.=C2=A0 The mai= n advantage of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the Hop Count approach is that it counts the number of= IOAM-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 capable nodes without relying on the lower layer TTL, = especially
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 when the lower layer cannot prvide the accurate TTL in= formation,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 e.g., Layer 2 Ethernet or hierarchical VPN.=C2=A0 It a= lso explicitly
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 allows to detect a case where an IOAM-capable node fai= ls to export
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 packets to the collector.=C2=A0 In order to facilitate= the Hop Count
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 approach it is possible to use a flag to indicate an o= ptional Hop
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Count field, which enables to control the tradeoff.=C2= =A0 On one hand
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 it addresses the use cases that the Hop_Lim/Node_ID ca= nnot cover,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and on the other hand it does not require transit swit= ches to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 update the option if it is not supported or disabled.= =C2=A0 Further
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 discussion is required about the tradeoff between the = two
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 alternatives.

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21:45:16 +0000 From: Haoyu Song To: "Ramesh Sivakolundu (sramesh)" , Tal Mizrahi , IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: [ippm] Hop Count in IOAM Direct Exporting Thread-Index: AQHWJ1gscDqlKK0fkUOpW73p4dgC1qijKpwwgAAKqYCAAAmDYIAAEsMAgAATfGA= Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 21:45:16 +0000 Message-ID: References: <502BEE28-193B-4400-AE0C-D2CE8C9AD52F@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <502BEE28-193B-4400-AE0C-D2CE8C9AD52F@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: cisco.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;cisco.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=futurewei.com; x-originating-ip: [69.149.42.153] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 21118589-b9eb-41b9-ab65-08d7f5f497dc x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM6PR13MB3530: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-forefront-prvs: 04004D94E2 x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 21118589-b9eb-41b9-ab65-08d7f5f497dc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 May 2020 21:45:16.4021 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: JC5Dd5rD9rNNBcBVgog/z3SLsiy8lvLw44DrrC1XHKl8/PIDMmu+cD3EyFfnLg84lcNtPmpolXp84K49pa5AuA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR13MB3530 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Hop Count in IOAM Direct Exporting X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 21:45:22 -0000 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SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=guest.telecomitalia.it Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A_jAD29pl5qz for ; Thu, 14 May 2020 06:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx07.telecomitalia.it (mx07.telecomitalia.it [156.54.232.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E7853A0A13 for ; Thu, 14 May 2020 06:08:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=guest.telecomitalia.it; s=selector1; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; i=@guest.telecomitalia.it; t=1589461717; x=2453375317; h=MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID:Subject:To; bh=7P14+l2LIitjDET/C59Cx6BfIiQ90uJkTyVu2azO2H8=; b=LptqzmvOOPvnnNSJc9PpOymtXxb5UHRcMt7w2ykPRFa3Vc9GwwD26O5V/+rC+qr9 rqqwohQVgzmYk49Rh47yRnH6qewJSA8HhwudhQXZMC6+0l+mbxrAoKwG2eu8f/83 /bwpbeMx+3GQwTcRsk46L0Xf7PHwV+Gn2JZdjIOfZJR8Nu2CUqK9ZSlLeJz+BkqO Zv7XvptVKfytX0bqa9//MpXVfqukD3LqOI19lLIxADC51UhEe6E5SDLI1Njk9r/S I9LPbEdWKQzlJZ3rvMd91+Nz7OvQElCoFBYH8uTpfjAz6KXtDDlvz5zs1s/F8SFK tPTFibo6/0ghsezkAVSyig==; X-AuditID: 0a5a2d17-bd5ff70000008b12-e6-5ebd42d4dec8 Received: from TELMBXC12BA020.telecomitalia.local ( [10.90.43.46]) by mx07.telecomitalia.it () with SMTP id E2.5C.35602.4D24DBE5; Thu, 14 May 2020 15:08:36 +0200 (CEST) From: "Bulgarella Fabio (Guest)" To: "Lubashev, Igor" , Ian Swett , "draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements@ietf.org" CC: "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" , "quic@ietf.org" , "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Thread-Topic: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) Thread-Index: AQHWF/zfNwOq9+2pFU28gxDKDgXEdaiFgojxgAFIB4CAB8qYTYAQp4kAgAhzwO4= Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 13:08:35 +0000 Message-ID: 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List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 13:08:48 -0000 Hi Igor and all QUIC/IPPM WG members,=0A= =0A= I think it's clear to everyone that both systems have advantages and disadv= antages. In this email exchange, we both expressed our views on it.=0A= At this point we would ask to WG members if they think it would be interest= ing to see a comparative test between the two methodologies.=0A= =0A= Our proposal is to implement both solutions on a common implementation of t= he QUIC protocol so that the same data flow can be marked using both techni= ques (i.e., Qbit, Rbit and Lbit - borrowing the third most significant bit = occupied by the spinbit) and analyzed using the two observers.=0A= =0A= Waiting for your feedbacks on this proposal,=0A= Best regards.=0A= =0A= Fabio, Mauro, Massimo, Giuseppe and Riccardo=0A= =0A= =0A= ________________________________________=0A= Da: Lubashev, Igor =0A= Inviato: sabato 9 maggio 2020 08:00=0A= A: Bulgarella Fabio (Guest); Ian Swett; draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements= @ietf.org=0A= Cc: isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; quic@ietf.org; alexandre.ferrieux@orange= .com; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)=0A= Oggetto: [EXT] RE: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-= spinbit-measurements)=0A= =0A= Fabio,=0A= =0A= I think we are in a complete agreement that any loss reporting is a very us= eful extension =96 both for monitoring the network and for troubleshooting = individual flows. I think we agree that L-bit and R-bit are better than not= hing. The disagreement is about the relative fitness for the purpose and e= ase of deployability.=0A= =0A= I would also welcome other people to weigh in with novel insights. Maybe m= ore people will catch up on both drafts before the next IETF.=0A= =0A= I am happy to get into the details of each point (inline), but my biggest c= oncern is aligned with Dmitri=92s concern that:=0A= =0A= (a) Simultaneous captures/observations by different organizations of inf= requently occurring events is a futile proposition, and=0A= (b) A very large percentage of internet flows is asymmetric.=0A= =0A= As a result, a method that relies of either of these properties is limiting= its utility for troubleshooting customer problems.=0A= =0A= (The rest of the comments are inline)=0A= =0A= > On Tue, April 28, 2020 at 9:51 AM, Bulgarella Fabio (Guest) wrote:=0A= >=0A= > Hello Igor,=0A= > thanks for your reply.=0A= >=0A= > This exchange of e-mails is very useful to understand which of the two so= lutions has the best balance between positive and negative aspects,=0A= > at least in the measurement scenarios of interest for telecommunication o= perators. The important thing is that one of the two solution is=0A= > chosen and a packet loss feature is finally included in the Quic protocol= (after the necessary checks in terms of privacy and security).=0A= > However, we can already say, from the point of view of Telecom Italia and= Orange, that the Qbit is a fixed point of this type of measures.=0A= > It remains to decide which is better between L-bit and R-bit.=0A= >=0A= > First of all, let's remember the reasons that led us to design the Rbit.= =0A= > We found some weaknesses in the Lbit:=0A= >=0A= > - the LBit logic is strictly tied to the protocol implementation.=0A= > For example in LSQUIC there are 6 different hook points where this variab= le is set. QL performance mechanism logic is intertwined with=0A= > the protocol logic. So, the concern here is that future changes in the pr= otocol or in new implementations need a careful analysis of the=0A= > code to avoid different behaviors and different measurement results;=0A= =0A= The quality of the implementation of each stack is mostly related to the im= plementor. The behavior for both L-bit and R-bit is specified by the stand= ards, so if the standards are implemented correctly, no analysis of the imp= lementation should be needed.=0A= =0A= > - loss of packets carrying only ACK frames (are detected?).=0A= > We saw in the Montreal demo (using Ericsson SpinDump tool), the last July= , that if Quic packets only contain ACK frames the Lbit is not set.=0A= > Actually, during a file download we inserted losses in the upload directi= on that were not detected by the system.=0A= > Alexandre confirmed this behavior. Have you changed something since then?= =0A= =0A= With QL-bits, each endpoint is free to implement or NOT implement the marki= ng. The beauty of the QL scheme is that if an endpoint chooses to mark pac= kets, those markings are sufficient to signal upstream and downstream loss = of all packets sent by THAT endpoint. In the implementation you are referri= ng to, it looks like the client endpoint did NOT choose to implement QL mar= kings, so its packets (pure ACKs) did not provide loss signaling. If the c= lient did implement QL, those pure ACKs would report losses all the same.= =0A= =0A= > - the loss measurement signal is inaccurate in case of losses:=0A= > The Lbit is a simple signaling protocol. If you miss a Lbit marked packet= you miss a signal of loss. If losses are not equally distributed between= =0A= > L-marked and not L-marked packets, it's very likely that the produced mea= surements are wrong or at least inaccurate. The two approaches=0A= > are completely different. Rbit works exactly as the Qbit. It counts the l= ost packets, it's not a signaling. So, as the Qbit, the correct percentage= =0A= > of lost packets is detected.=0A= =0A= There is no difference between QL- and QR- schemes in regard to the signal = quality in case a loss of packets with the signal. As you note, we discuss = in the draft that it is conceivable for a somewhat different loss ratio for= packets w/ L=3D0 and L=3D1 for QL-bit scheme. Likewise, it is conceivable = for a different loss ratio for packets belonging to =93shorter=94 and =93lo= nger=94 R-trains for QR-bit scheme. After all, when there are losses to rep= ort (shorter R trains), the ACKs will be sent more frequently, increasing t= he chance of the return path congestion.=0A= =0A= > Now some inline answers to your considerations, even though at this point= it would be convenient to organize a comparison involving also=0A= > other people interested in the topic, maybe in a next IETF meeting. We ar= e also available to carry out comparative tests on the same flows=0A= > (marking simultaneously with both solutions) using for example the Ericss= on SpinDump tool which has already been used in the previous=0A= > hackathons as QUIC performance measurement tool.=0A= >=0A= >> Strong reordering exists. That=92s why we are recommending the minimum = Q to be 64. This comes from real data, not lab data.=0A= >> If 5 packets were enough to tell the end of marking periods, we would ha= d recommended minimum Q to be 8.=0A= >=0A= > The length of the period is not chosen only in function of reordering but= also to avoid that burst losses completely cancel one or more periods.=0A= =0A= That's right, that is a factor also. However, we have not observed losses = that obliterate several dozens of consecutive packets, though I am sure the= y exist somewhere. Consistent packet reordering of that magnitude we did s= ee.=0A= =0A= > However, stimulated by Igor's concerns, we thought of an improvement rega= rding the tolerance of our system against out of sequence.=0A= > In a nutshell, it would be possible to intercept reordered packets receiv= ed after the detection of an incoming "Qbit marking period", using them=0A= > to update the computed average until the current "Rbit marking period" is= completed in generation.=0A= =0A= Sure, though the receiver endpoint has access to the packet numbers and kno= ws the loss rate exactly and can signal it directly.=0A= =0A= > After the necessary laboratory tests, we could add this new feature to th= e next revision of our draft.=0A= >=0A= > R signal is still going to be significantly delayed, especially with slow= er connections (not every connection is going to be streaming media at a=0A= > sustained rate of 15Mbps). So if for a 15Mbps average-rate connection you= can expect to see R-signal with a delay between 8-RTTs (1:2 ACK)=0A= > and 38-RTTs (1:10 ACK), the delay increases to 24-RTTs and 114-RTTs for a= 5Mbps average-rate connection.=0A= >=0A= > As already said in the previous mail, based on our tests, this is not a b= ig problem because it's still possible to obtain enough measurements to=0A= > evaluate the packet loss of a session. Moreover, the measurement delay is= shortened when packet loss occurs.=0A= =0A= It depends. For a large media download it is probably enough data for gene= ric network monitoring. It would not work for shorter flows. Also, as I s= howed above, even with an ack2 policy, you may get a 38-RTT delay for very = realistic network media flows, which will make troubleshooting specific flo= ws difficult.=0A= =0A= >> L-bit signal provides a crisp shape of the loss =96 whether it is random= loss, or packets are lost of batches (and how many packets are in a loss b= atch).=0A= > By contrast, R-signal only indicates an average loss over 2 to 10 Q-bit m= arking periods. The share of the loss is erased. I think for that alone, L= -signal=0A= > is more useful for troubleshooting.=0A= >=0A= > Although we calculate the E2E loss through an average (only if the reflec= tion is on a slower channel than the signal reception channel), we are stil= l=0A= > able to accurately calculate the loss using a correction factor (see http= s: //tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements-00#section-7.4= ).=0A= =0A= I think you did not understand the concern here. The specific shape of the= loss may be very useful for a network troubleshooting. QL-signal allows o= ne to observe the precise shape of the loss. QR-scheme only gets you an av= erage rate over multiple RTTs.=0A= =0A= In fact, even if the loss is on the slower channel and reflection is on the= faster channel, QR only gets an average loss rate rather then the precise = shape of the loss.=0A= =0A= >> This is an important difference, and it seems accurate on its surface. = In reality, every QUIC implementation will keep track of packets and declar= e them=0A= >> lost for the purposes of data retransmission and/or congestion control. = The timing and details of when packets are declared lost (L-bit signal) wi= ll vary.=0A= >> Likewise, every QUIC implementation will send some ACKs, but their timin= g and frequency (R-signal) will vary. R-signal quality will also heavily d= epend=0A= >> on the =93marking period detection=94 implementation quality and =93Q-si= gnal averaging=94 implementation details.=0A= >=0A= > See first point in the L-bit weeknesses paragraph. Moreover, the two func= tions "marking period detection" and "Q-signal averaging", really simple in= =0A= > implementation, are completely detached from the rest of the protocol log= ic and their behaviors are expressly indicated in the draft.=0A= =0A= There is no particular L-bit weakness here. See my comment above =96 the p= recise timings of the signals will vary in both approaches. The timing of = L-bit will vary based on the sender=92s loss detection. The timing of R-bi= t will vary based on the receiver=92s ACK policy (and also the details of t= heir =93reordering mitigation=94 algorithms).=0A= =0A= >> Also, accurate accounting with QR scheme requires correlation of both di= rections, with the R-bit direction significantly lagging the Q-bit directio= n.=0A= >> It should be understood how this scheme behaves in cases of changing Con= nection IDs.=0A= >=0A= > We do not see the problem of implementing the solution on both endpoints = since generally the client, unlike the server, does not have scalability pr= oblems.=0A= > So if you implement it on the server it costs nothing to implement it on = the client as well.=0A= =0A= There is no scalability concern for the QL implementation at all. It is ju= st two counters that are incremented and decremented.=0A= =0A= The real concern is developer skills and developer resources. Servers typi= cally have substantial development organizations that will get it right. Ex= cept for a handful of most popular desktop and phone clients, however, clie= nts have very limited developer support and update story. A lot of bits are= pushed by clients built into various streaming devices, smart TVs, set top= boxes, BluRay players, and some such. Their implementations tend to be mi= nimal and somewhat sloppy, and their upgrade path is sporadic at best.=0A= =0A= Best regards,=0A= =0A= - Igor=0A= =0A= ________________________________________=0A= Da: Lubashev, Igor =0A= Inviato: gioved=EC 23 aprile 2020 18:41=0A= A: Bulgarella Fabio (Guest); Ian Swett; Cociglio Mauro=0A= Cc: Riccardo Sisto; mailto:isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; mailto:quic@ietf.= org; mailto:alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com; IETF IPPM WG (mailto:ippm@ietf.o= rg)=0A= Oggetto: [EXT] RE: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-= spinbit-measurements)=0A= =0A= Fabio, thanks for the reply.=0A= =0A= =95 =93Moreover, with a strong amount of reordering the Qbit (and the SpinB= it) would not work either.=94=0A= =0A= Strong reordering exists. That=92s why we are recommending the minimum Q t= o be 64. This comes from real data, not lab data. If 5 packets were enoug= h to tell the end of marking periods, we would had recommended minimum Q to= be 8.=0A= =0A= =0A= =95 R-bit signal delay.=0A= =0A= R signal is still going to be significantly delayed, especially with slower= connections (not every connection is going to be streaming media at a sust= ained rate of 15Mbps). So if for a 15Mbps average-rate connection you can = expect to see R-signal with a delay between 8-RTTs (1:2 ACK) and 38-RTTs (1= :10 ACK), the delay increases to 24-RTTs and 114-RTTs for a 5Mbps average-r= ate connection.=0A= =0A= =95 R-bit signal quality.=0A= =0A= L-bit signal provides a crisp shape of the loss =96 whether it is random lo= ss, or packets are lost of batches (and how many packets are in a loss batc= h). By contrast, R-signal only indicates an average loss over 2 to 10 Q-bi= t marking periods. The share of the loss is erased.=0A= =0A= I think for that alone, L-signal is more useful for troubleshooting.=0A= =0A= =0A= =95 L-bit signal depends on each implementation=92s determination of when t= o =93declare a packet lost=94 (which may differ for each implementation), w= hile R-signal depends only on more generic behaviors.=0A= =0A= This is an important difference, and it seems accurate on its surface. In = reality, every QUIC implementation will keep track of packets and declare t= hem lost for the purposes of data retransmission and/or congestion control.= The timing and details of when packets are declared lost (L-bit signal) w= ill vary. Likewise, every QUIC implementation will send some ACKs, but the= ir timing and frequency (R-signal) will vary. R-signal quality will also h= eavily depend on the =93marking period detection=94 implementation quality = and =93Q-signal averaging=94 implementation details.=0A= =0A= =0A= =95 End-to-end loss: =93We can also place two independent observers whereve= r on the two directions and they will still produce coherent E2E measures.= =94=0A= =95 End-to-end loss: =93by observing only one direction we can measure the = [=85] the end-to-end in the opposite direction (Rbit).=0A= =0A= Correct, as long as both endpoints implement the entire QR scheme (even if = this is an unusual setup =96 measuring path A requires observing path B).= =0A= =0A= Also, accurate accounting with QR scheme requires correlation of both direc= tions, with the R-bit direction significantly lagging the Q-bit direction. = It should be understood how this scheme behaves in cases of changing Conne= ction IDs.=0A= =0A= Best wishes,=0A= =0A= =95 Igor=0A= =0A= =0A= From: Bulgarella Fabio (Guest) =0A= Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 3:12 PM=0A= To: Lubashev, Igor ; Ian Swett ; Cociglio Mauro =0A= Cc: Riccardo Sisto ; mailto:isabelle.hamch= aoui@orange.com; mailto:quic@ietf.org; mailto:alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com= ; IETF IPPM WG (mailto:ippm@ietf.org) =0A= Subject: Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbi= t-measurements)=0A= =0A= Hello Igor,=0A= here some thoughts about your concerns.=0A= =0A= 1. If big differences in delay are present between two parallel paths on wh= ich the same connection is divided, this is certainly an unwanted behavior,= because it could create problems to the protocol itself even before damagi= ng the performance measurements. As a network operator, we try to avoid suc= h scenarios. However, our mechanism works correctly in most cases and is st= ill resistant to normal reordering. Moreover, with a strong amount of reord= ering the Qbit (and the SpinBit) would not work either.=0A= =0A= =0A= 2. It's true that your mechanism allows the measurement of E2E and upstream= loss of the observed direction. However, these measurement methodologies a= re born with the idea of providing information on the performance of the en= tire connection, as was done with the SpinBit. Actually with our mechanism,= when observing a single direction, we still are able to measure the E2E lo= ss of the opposite channel (using the R-bit).=0A= =0A= =0A= 3. The ACK ratio of 1:10 should only occur in the absence of loss. By intro= ducing loss, the ratio between ACK and data is certainly better. So the qua= lity of our signal improves just when it is needed; we don't care if we get= delayed measurements when everything is working great. This behavior is co= nfirmed by our laboratory tests where we have seen that loss can be easily = detected in an extremely accurate manner even in the case of highly unbalan= ced flows.=0A= =0A= L-Bit has an RTO delay but to evaluate an accurate loss ratio you have stil= l to observe a significant number of packets.=0A= =0A= =0A= 4. First of all, our solution is not dependent on any specific protocol imp= lementation unlike the QL and therefore there shouldn=92t be problems relat= ed to the quality of the implementation. In other words, our portion of cod= e is always the same, in every protocol implementation.=0A= Secondly, as anticipated in point 2, by observing only one direction we can= measure the losses in the operator's domain (Qbit) and the end-to-end in t= he opposite direction (Rbit). So, our solution does work also for asymmetri= c path segments. We can also place two indipendent observers wherever on th= e two directions and they will still produce coherent E2E measures.=0A= =0A= The QL solution does not give any information about the opposite direction,= it only measures what it observes, that is the current direction. Having t= wo independent measures, one per direction, can be an advantage in some asp= ects, but a disadvantage for others.=0A= =0A= =0A= Best regards,=0A= Fabio B..=0A= =0A= =0A= ________________________________________=0A= Da: ippm per conto di Lubashev, Igor =0A= Inviato: marted=EC 21 aprile 2020 18:31=0A= A: Ian Swett; Cociglio Mauro=0A= Cc: Riccardo Sisto; mailto:isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; mailto:quic@ietf.= org; mailto:alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com; IETF IPPM WG (mailto:ippm@ietf.o= rg)=0A= Oggetto: [EXT] Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-= spinbit-measurements)=0A= =0A= I like the QR draft from the perspective that it mostly works (and lots of = credit is due for things that work).=0A= =0A= I have a few concerns, though.=0A= =0A= 1. The most trivial one is that QR is actually harder to implement correctl= y for endpoints, given the tricky processing required to identify when a ma= rking interval has ended. Experimental data that Akamai & Orange compiled = shows that there are networks that do ECMP among links with significantly d= ifferent latencies. They will cause a lot more reordering to a burst of pa= ckets than the recommended =93observe 5 packets (in a row?) of the opposite= markings=94 rule can address. You might need to potentially defer the dec= ision on where exactly the marking period boundary is until you=92ve seen a= lmost half of the next marking period. Requiring every endpoint to impleme= nt this right is tough.=0A= =0A= 2. Since the most important direction (at least for downloads and media str= eaming) is server-to-client, to get this signal with QR, you need both endp= oints implementing the logic, with the heaviest lift on the clients (see ab= ove). For QL, a client that does not want to implement QL logic but is ok = with the loss data reporting can just update the TP and header protection m= ask =96 all the lift is on the server side.=0A= =0A= 3. I am concerned with the quality of the signal you get from QR. While th= e upstream loss signal is strong (same Q-bit), the downstream/end-to-end lo= ss signal is weak and is likely to result in very delayed and inconclusive = signal. Google=92s experience (as I understand it) and protocol research (= https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__erg.abdn.ac.uk_-7Edo= wnloads_ackscaling.pdf&d=3DDwMF-g&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DDjn3bQ5uNJ= DPM_2skfL3rW1tzcIxyjUZdn_m55KPmlo&m=3Du3hS0QnHLn0-P-Lmy8-Yhm7L0G310RjwTQfw2= XLvfJk&s=3D8qb_Zcm3YASCVrMZiZ5Le_3_nPxd8AC7bUbVwXl4L9I&e=3D) point to the b= enefit of ACK-ing only 1:10 packets after the initial slow start (draft-fai= rhurst-quic-ack-scaling). Since such behavior has a beneficial impact on n= etworks, mobile devices, and endpoint cpu, and no negative impact on the pr= otocol performance, I expect it to be in common use. With 1:10 ACK ratio, = R-bit signal is significantly delayed as it is lagging the loss by at least= 1400*(Q=3D64)*2*10=3D1.8MB of data transferred, which is at least 38 RTTs = for a 15Mbps stream over a 25ms link (L-bit signal is delayed by an RTO).= =0A= =0A= 4. QR scheme only works for symmetric path segments, when the observer can = capture both directions of the flow. You also cannot compute end-to-end los= s in any direction, unless both endpoints implement the entire QR algorithm= . In contrast, QL works for single-direction observers, and whichever endp= oint implements QL algorithm ensures end-to-end loss signal for the packets= it sends, and the quality of that loss signal solely depends on the qualit= y of that endpoint=92s implementation (not the quality of the other endpoin= t=92s implementation). QL seems more deployable.=0A= =0A= =95 Igor=0A= =0A= =0A= From: Ian Swett =0A= Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 3:44 PM=0A= To: Cociglio Mauro =0A= Cc: mailto:quic@ietf.org; Lubashev, Igor ; mail= to:alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com; mailto:isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; Ric= cardo Sisto ; IETF IPPM WG (mailto:ippm@ie= tf.org) =0A= Subject: Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbi= t-measurements)=0A= =0A= Thanks for sharing this. From my perspective, this is an improvement upon = the previous proposal in terms of robustness. This design feels very simil= ar to the spin bit, and seems trivial to implement, which are also nice pro= perties.=0A= =0A= Also, QUIC doesn't really have retransmissions, so the 'R bit' name always = made me a bit uncomfortable.=0A= =0A= I'm not saying QUIC should adopt this yet, but I'd be interested in seeing = a privacy analysis completed for it.=0A= =0A= Ian=0A= =0A= On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 4:25 AM Cociglio Mauro wrote:=0A= Dear QUIC WG Members.=0A= =0A= We submitted to IPPM WG a draft where we described a new 2 bit packet loss = methodology (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.i= etf.org_html_draft-2Dcfb-2Dippm-2Dspinbit-2Dmeasurements-2D01&d=3DDwMFaQ&c= =3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DDjn3bQ5uNJDPM_2skfL3rW1tzcIxyjUZdn_m55KPmlo&m= =3De_BQ3UDNSWkXu_ID1rkGv3CCZs89sezu-6Ibkvltf7Y&s=3DUeTW_fLvxHy_ewVvm0y6kIqZ= oXUR8PYWgxAOxmQScYw&e=3D).=0A= The measurement of packet loss is under discussion in QUIC WG and our draft= introduces two alternatives about it.=0A= The first one is a spin-bit dependent signal and uses a single bit. The sec= ond one, described in the following linked slides, is a standalone solution= based on a two bits loss signal and on alternate marking (RFC8321)..=0A= This last methodology improves, in our opinion, the algorithm proposed by O= range and Akamai described in https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3D= https-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dferrieuxhamchaoui-2Dquic-2Dlossbits-2= D03&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DDjn3bQ5uNJDPM_2skfL3rW1tzcIxy= jUZdn_m55KPmlo&m=3De_BQ3UDNSWkXu_ID1rkGv3CCZs89sezu-6Ibkvltf7Y&s=3DV649Uqu8= mfuBWvMRBTUkpEWfpEqlLfufGs67XXzvNFo&e=3D.=0A= =0A= The 2 bits are the sQuare bit (Q-bit) and the Reflection square bit (R-bit)= .=0A= The Q-bit doesn=92t change from the Ferrieux-Hamchaoui draft but the R-bit = substitutes the L-bit.=0A= This avoids the L-bit dependence from an internal protocol variable, a prob= lem raised in the last QUIC interim meeting.=0A= =0A= You can find the slides, we prepared for the IPPM interim meeting, at the f= ollowing link: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__githu= b.com_ietf-2Dippm_meeting-2Dmaterials_blob_aa486f7ead28b9f55c5ef499e5c9ed33= ab06daf9_ietf107-2Dvirtual_Slides_07-2Dspinbit-2Dmeasurements.pdf&d=3DDwMFa= Q&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DDjn3bQ5uNJDPM_2skfL3rW1tzcIxyjUZdn_m55KPml= o&m=3De_BQ3UDNSWkXu_ID1rkGv3CCZs89sezu-6Ibkvltf7Y&s=3D3l6t3FYQn0iz_xX0sxNFK= Unh7bwYFMOpQ0z_zNhXHpg&e=3D=0A= =0A= Comments and suggestions are always welcome.=0A= =0A= Of course we are available to present our proposals in the next QUIC WG mee= ting or to arrange a Webex side meeting if needed.=0A= =0A= Best regards.=0A= =0A= Mauro, Fabio, Giuseppe, Massimo and Riccardo=0A= =0A= =0A= _____________________=0A= Mauro Cociglio=0A= TIM - CT.TA.EI=0A= Via G. 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Non stampare questa mail se non =E8 necessario.=0A= _______________________________________________=0A= ippm mailing list=0A= mailto:ippm@ietf.org=0A= https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman= _listinfo_ippm&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DDjn3bQ5uNJDPM_2skf= L3rW1tzcIxyjUZdn_m55KPmlo&m=3De_BQ3UDNSWkXu_ID1rkGv3CCZs89sezu-6Ibkvltf7Y&s= =3DYF4GnFEgwmSakC8Bv_763sIZZR3g8t7wdsuiOl6C8fU&e=3D=0A= From nobody Thu May 14 06:52:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DD4A3A082C; Thu, 14 May 2020 06:52:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.774 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.774 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.173, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, GB_ABOUTYOU=0.5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 64eb72e5-04b2-4572-b6b9-08d7f80e0315 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 May 2020 13:52:15.9750 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: d+oQjn+UWhIE79NlO+NdqChEmczMz8gtvcFYWruiU/mV7SkD4/FF4RoHY1KYoKvf0Xn1lJ0HP1XaXv4Rugm2Z6iplYgHcLARRAU5tE5r+nU= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR07MB3209 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 13:52:24 -0000 Hi, I agree with the original problem that we need a good way to do packet loss= measurements for both aggregates and individual flows. I'm not yet in a position to say which methodology is the most beneficial o= ne from the set of cases I'm interested in (SLA assurance and troubleshooti= ng mainly). In Spindump we have support for both measurement methodologies and could qu= ite easily extend it to observe loss using both methodologies simultaneousl= y. So I like the approach that Fabio is describing here, perhaps this could be= a good Hackathon project? Marcus Ihlar -----Original Message----- From: QUIC On Behalf Of Bulgarella Fabio (Guest) Sent: den 14 maj 2020 15:09 To: Lubashev, Igor ; Ian Swett ; draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements@ietf.org Cc: isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; quic@ietf.org; alexandre.ferrieux@orange= .com; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Subject: Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbi= t-measurements) Hi Igor and all QUIC/IPPM WG members, I think it's clear to everyone that both systems have advantages and disadv= antages. In this email exchange, we both expressed our views on it. At this point we would ask to WG members if they think it would be interest= ing to see a comparative test between the two methodologies. Our proposal is to implement both solutions on a common implementation of t= he QUIC protocol so that the same data flow can be marked using both techni= ques (i.e., Qbit, Rbit and Lbit - borrowing the third most significant bit = occupied by the spinbit) and analyzed using the two observers. Waiting for your feedbacks on this proposal, Best regards. Fabio, Mauro, Massimo, Giuseppe and Riccardo ________________________________________ Da: Lubashev, Igor Inviato: sabato 9 maggio 2020 08:00 A: Bulgarella Fabio (Guest); Ian Swett; draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements= @ietf.org Cc: isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; quic@ietf.org; alexandre.ferrieux@orange= ..com; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Oggetto: [EXT] RE: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-= spinbit-measurements) Fabio, I think we are in a complete agreement that any loss reporting is a very us= eful extension - both for monitoring the network and for troubleshooting in= dividual flows. I think we agree that L-bit and R-bit are better than nothi= ng. The disagreement is about the relative fitness for the purpose and eas= e of deployability. I would also welcome other people to weigh in with novel insights. Maybe m= ore people will catch up on both drafts before the next IETF. I am happy to get into the details of each point (inline), but my biggest c= oncern is aligned with Dmitri's concern that: (a) Simultaneous captures/observations by different organizations of inf= requently occurring events is a futile proposition, and (b) A very large percentage of internet flows is asymmetric. As a result, a method that relies of either of these properties is limiting= its utility for troubleshooting customer problems. (The rest of the comments are inline) > On Tue, April 28, 2020 at 9:51 AM, Bulgarella Fabio (Guest) wrote: > > Hello Igor, > thanks for your reply. > > This exchange of e-mails is very useful to understand which of the two > solutions has the best balance between positive and negative aspects, > at least in the measurement scenarios of interest for telecommunication o= perators. The important thing is that one of the two solution is chosen and= a packet loss feature is finally included in the Quic protocol (after the = necessary checks in terms of privacy and security). > However, we can already say, from the point of view of Telecom Italia and= Orange, that the Qbit is a fixed point of this type of measures. > It remains to decide which is better between L-bit and R-bit. > > First of all, let's remember the reasons that led us to design the Rbit. > We found some weaknesses in the Lbit: > > - the LBit logic is strictly tied to the protocol implementation. > For example in LSQUIC there are 6 different hook points where this > variable is set. QL performance mechanism logic is intertwined with > the protocol logic. So, the concern here is that future changes in the > protocol or in new implementations need a careful analysis of the code > to avoid different behaviors and different measurement results; The quality of the implementation of each stack is mostly related to the im= plementor. The behavior for both L-bit and R-bit is specified by the stand= ards, so if the standards are implemented correctly, no analysis of the imp= lementation should be needed. > - loss of packets carrying only ACK frames (are detected?). > We saw in the Montreal demo (using Ericsson SpinDump tool), the last July= , that if Quic packets only contain ACK frames the Lbit is not set. > Actually, during a file download we inserted losses in the upload directi= on that were not detected by the system. > Alexandre confirmed this behavior. Have you changed something since then? With QL-bits, each endpoint is free to implement or NOT implement the marki= ng. The beauty of the QL scheme is that if an endpoint chooses to mark pac= kets, those markings are sufficient to signal upstream and downstream loss = of all packets sent by THAT endpoint. In the implementation you are referri= ng to, it looks like the client endpoint did NOT choose to implement QL mar= kings, so its packets (pure ACKs) did not provide loss signaling. If the c= lient did implement QL, those pure ACKs would report losses all the same. > - the loss measurement signal is inaccurate in case of losses: > The Lbit is a simple signaling protocol. If you miss a Lbit marked > packet you miss a signal of loss. If losses are not equally > distributed between L-marked and not L-marked packets, it's very > likely that the produced measurements are wrong or at least inaccurate. T= he two approaches are completely different. Rbit works exactly as the Qbit.= It counts the lost packets, it's not a signaling. So, as the Qbit, the cor= rect percentage of lost packets is detected. There is no difference between QL- and QR- schemes in regard to the signal = quality in case a loss of packets with the signal. As you note, we discuss = in the draft that it is conceivable for a somewhat different loss ratio for= packets w/ L=3D0 and L=3D1 for QL-bit scheme. Likewise, it is conceivable = for a different loss ratio for packets belonging to "shorter" and "longer" = R-trains for QR-bit scheme. After all, when there are losses to report (sho= rter R trains), the ACKs will be sent more frequently, increasing the chanc= e of the return path congestion. > Now some inline answers to your considerations, even though at this > point it would be convenient to organize a comparison involving also > other people interested in the topic, maybe in a next IETF meeting. We > are also available to carry out comparative tests on the same flows (mark= ing simultaneously with both solutions) using for example the Ericsson Spin= Dump tool which has already been used in the previous hackathons as QUIC pe= rformance measurement tool. > >> Strong reordering exists. That's why we are recommending the minimum Q = to be 64. This comes from real data, not lab data. >> If 5 packets were enough to tell the end of marking periods, we would ha= d recommended minimum Q to be 8. > > The length of the period is not chosen only in function of reordering but= also to avoid that burst losses completely cancel one or more periods. That's right, that is a factor also. However, we have not observed losses = that obliterate several dozens of consecutive packets, though I am sure the= y exist somewhere. Consistent packet reordering of that magnitude we did s= ee. > However, stimulated by Igor's concerns, we thought of an improvement rega= rding the tolerance of our system against out of sequence. > In a nutshell, it would be possible to intercept reordered packets > received after the detection of an incoming "Qbit marking period", using = them to update the computed average until the current "Rbit marking period"= is completed in generation. Sure, though the receiver endpoint has access to the packet numbers and kno= ws the loss rate exactly and can signal it directly. > After the necessary laboratory tests, we could add this new feature to th= e next revision of our draft. > > R signal is still going to be significantly delayed, especially with > slower connections (not every connection is going to be streaming > media at a sustained rate of 15Mbps). So if for a 15Mbps average-rate con= nection you can expect to see R-signal with a delay between 8-RTTs (1:2 ACK= ) and 38-RTTs (1:10 ACK), the delay increases to 24-RTTs and 114-RTTs for a= 5Mbps average-rate connection. > > As already said in the previous mail, based on our tests, this is not > a big problem because it's still possible to obtain enough measurements t= o evaluate the packet loss of a session. Moreover, the measurement delay is= shortened when packet loss occurs. It depends. For a large media download it is probably enough data for gene= ric network monitoring. It would not work for shorter flows. Also, as I s= howed above, even with an ack2 policy, you may get a 38-RTT delay for very = realistic network media flows, which will make troubleshooting specific flo= ws difficult. >> L-bit signal provides a crisp shape of the loss - whether it is random l= oss, or packets are lost of batches (and how many packets are in a loss bat= ch). > By contrast, R-signal only indicates an average loss over 2 to 10 > Q-bit marking periods. The share of the loss is erased. I think for that= alone, L-signal is more useful for troubleshooting. > > Although we calculate the E2E loss through an average (only if the > reflection is on a slower channel than the signal reception channel), we = are still able to accurately calculate the loss using a correction factor (= see https: //tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements-00#sec= tion-7.4). I think you did not understand the concern here. The specific shape of the= loss may be very useful for a network troubleshooting. QL-signal allows o= ne to observe the precise shape of the loss. QR-scheme only gets you an av= erage rate over multiple RTTs. In fact, even if the loss is on the slower channel and reflection is on the= faster channel, QR only gets an average loss rate rather then the precise = shape of the loss. >> This is an important difference, and it seems accurate on its >> surface. In reality, every QUIC implementation will keep track of packe= ts and declare them lost for the purposes of data retransmission and/or con= gestion control. The timing and details of when packets are declared lost = (L-bit signal) will vary. >> Likewise, every QUIC implementation will send some ACKs, but their >> timing and frequency (R-signal) will vary. R-signal quality will also h= eavily depend on the "marking period detection" implementation quality and = "Q-signal averaging" implementation details. > > See first point in the L-bit weeknesses paragraph. Moreover, the two > functions "marking period detection" and "Q-signal averaging", really sim= ple in implementation, are completely detached from the rest of the protoco= l logic and their behaviors are expressly indicated in the draft. There is no particular L-bit weakness here. See my comment above - the pre= cise timings of the signals will vary in both approaches. The timing of L-= bit will vary based on the sender's loss detection. The timing of R-bit wi= ll vary based on the receiver's ACK policy (and also the details of their "= reordering mitigation" algorithms). >> Also, accurate accounting with QR scheme requires correlation of both di= rections, with the R-bit direction significantly lagging the Q-bit directio= n. >> It should be understood how this scheme behaves in cases of changing Con= nection IDs. > > We do not see the problem of implementing the solution on both endpoints = since generally the client, unlike the server, does not have scalability pr= oblems. > So if you implement it on the server it costs nothing to implement it on = the client as well. There is no scalability concern for the QL implementation at all. It is ju= st two counters that are incremented and decremented. The real concern is developer skills and developer resources. Servers typi= cally have substantial development organizations that will get it right. Ex= cept for a handful of most popular desktop and phone clients, however, clie= nts have very limited developer support and update story. A lot of bits are= pushed by clients built into various streaming devices, smart TVs, set top= boxes, BluRay players, and some such. Their implementations tend to be mi= nimal and somewhat sloppy, and their upgrade path is sporadic at best. Best regards, - Igor ________________________________________ Da: Lubashev, Igor Inviato: gioved=EC 23 aprile 2020 18:41 A: Bulgarella Fabio (Guest); Ian Swett; Cociglio Mauro Cc: Riccardo Sisto; mailto:isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; mailto:quic@ietf.= org; mailto:alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com; IETF IPPM WG (mailto:ippm@ietf.o= rg) Oggetto: [EXT] RE: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-= spinbit-measurements) Fabio, thanks for the reply. * "Moreover, with a strong amount of reordering the Qbit (and the SpinBit) = would not work either." Strong reordering exists. That's why we are recommending the minimum Q to = be 64. This comes from real data, not lab data. If 5 packets were enough = to tell the end of marking periods, we would had recommended minimum Q to b= e 8. * R-bit signal delay. R signal is still going to be significantly delayed, especially with slower= connections (not every connection is going to be streaming media at a sust= ained rate of 15Mbps). So if for a 15Mbps average-rate connection you can = expect to see R-signal with a delay between 8-RTTs (1:2 ACK) and 38-RTTs (1= :10 ACK), the delay increases to 24-RTTs and 114-RTTs for a 5Mbps average-r= ate connection. * R-bit signal quality. L-bit signal provides a crisp shape of the loss - whether it is random loss= , or packets are lost of batches (and how many packets are in a loss batch)= . By contrast, R-signal only indicates an average loss over 2 to 10 Q-bit = marking periods. The share of the loss is erased. I think for that alone, L-signal is more useful for troubleshooting. * L-bit signal depends on each implementation's determination of when to "d= eclare a packet lost" (which may differ for each implementation), while R-s= ignal depends only on more generic behaviors. This is an important difference, and it seems accurate on its surface. In = reality, every QUIC implementation will keep track of packets and declare t= hem lost for the purposes of data retransmission and/or congestion control.= The timing and details of when packets are declared lost (L-bit signal) w= ill vary. Likewise, every QUIC implementation will send some ACKs, but the= ir timing and frequency (R-signal) will vary. R-signal quality will also h= eavily depend on the "marking period detection" implementation quality and = "Q-signal averaging" implementation details. * End-to-end loss: "We can also place two independent observers wherever on= the two directions and they will still produce coherent E2E measures." * End-to-end loss: "by observing only one direction we can measure the [...= ] the end-to-end in the opposite direction (Rbit). Correct, as long as both endpoints implement the entire QR scheme (even if = this is an unusual setup - measuring path A requires observing path B). Also, accurate accounting with QR scheme requires correlation of both direc= tions, with the R-bit direction significantly lagging the Q-bit direction. = It should be understood how this scheme behaves in cases of changing Conne= ction IDs. Best wishes, * Igor From: Bulgarella Fabio (Guest) Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 3:12 PM To: Lubashev, Igor ; Ian Swett ; Cociglio Mauro Cc: Riccardo Sisto ; mailto:isabelle.hamch= aoui@orange.com; mailto:quic@ietf.org; mailto:alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com= ; IETF IPPM WG (mailto:ippm@ietf.org) Subject: Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbi= t-measurements) Hello Igor, here some thoughts about your concerns. 1. If big differences in delay are present between two parallel paths on wh= ich the same connection is divided, this is certainly an unwanted behavior,= because it could create problems to the protocol itself even before damagi= ng the performance measurements. As a network operator, we try to avoid suc= h scenarios. However, our mechanism works correctly in most cases and is st= ill resistant to normal reordering. Moreover, with a strong amount of reord= ering the Qbit (and the SpinBit) would not work either. 2. It's true that your mechanism allows the measurement of E2E and upstream= loss of the observed direction. However, these measurement methodologies a= re born with the idea of providing information on the performance of the en= tire connection, as was done with the SpinBit. Actually with our mechanism,= when observing a single direction, we still are able to measure the E2E lo= ss of the opposite channel (using the R-bit). 3. The ACK ratio of 1:10 should only occur in the absence of loss. By intro= ducing loss, the ratio between ACK and data is certainly better. So the qua= lity of our signal improves just when it is needed; we don't care if we get= delayed measurements when everything is working great. This behavior is co= nfirmed by our laboratory tests where we have seen that loss can be easily = detected in an extremely accurate manner even in the case of highly unbalan= ced flows. L-Bit has an RTO delay but to evaluate an accurate loss ratio you have stil= l to observe a significant number of packets. 4. First of all, our solution is not dependent on any specific protocol imp= lementation unlike the QL and therefore there shouldn't be problems related= to the quality of the implementation. In other words, our portion of code = is always the same, in every protocol implementation. Secondly, as anticipated in point 2, by observing only one direction we can= measure the losses in the operator's domain (Qbit) and the end-to-end in t= he opposite direction (Rbit). So, our solution does work also for asymmetri= c path segments. We can also place two indipendent observers wherever on th= e two directions and they will still produce coherent E2E measures. The QL solution does not give any information about the opposite direction,= it only measures what it observes, that is the current direction. Having t= wo independent measures, one per direction, can be an advantage in some asp= ects, but a disadvantage for others. Best regards, Fabio B.. ________________________________________ Da: ippm per conto di Lubashev, Igor Inviato: marted=EC 21 aprile 2020 18:31 A: Ian Swett; Cociglio Mauro Cc: Riccardo Sisto; mailto:isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; mailto:quic@ietf.= org; mailto:alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com; IETF IPPM WG (mailto:ippm@ietf.o= rg) Oggetto: [EXT] Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-= spinbit-measurements) I like the QR draft from the perspective that it mostly works (and lots of = credit is due for things that work). I have a few concerns, though. 1. The most trivial one is that QR is actually harder to implement correctl= y for endpoints, given the tricky processing required to identify when a ma= rking interval has ended. Experimental data that Akamai & Orange compiled = shows that there are networks that do ECMP among links with significantly d= ifferent latencies. They will cause a lot more reordering to a burst of pa= ckets than the recommended "observe 5 packets (in a row?) of the opposite m= arkings" rule can address. You might need to potentially defer the decisio= n on where exactly the marking period boundary is until you've seen almost = half of the next marking period. Requiring every endpoint to implement thi= s right is tough. 2. Since the most important direction (at least for downloads and media str= eaming) is server-to-client, to get this signal with QR, you need both endp= oints implementing the logic, with the heaviest lift on the clients (see ab= ove). For QL, a client that does not want to implement QL logic but is ok = with the loss data reporting can just update the TP and header protection m= ask - all the lift is on the server side. 3. I am concerned with the quality of the signal you get from QR. While th= e upstream loss signal is strong (same Q-bit), the downstream/end-to-end lo= ss signal is weak and is likely to result in very delayed and inconclusive = signal. Google's experience (as I understand it) and protocol research (ht= tps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__erg.abdn.ac.uk_-7Edown= loads_ackscaling.pdf&d=3DDwMF-g&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DDjn3bQ5uNJDP= M_2skfL3rW1tzcIxyjUZdn_m55KPmlo&m=3Du3hS0QnHLn0-P-Lmy8-Yhm7L0G310RjwTQfw2XL= vfJk&s=3D8qb_Zcm3YASCVrMZiZ5Le_3_nPxd8AC7bUbVwXl4L9I&e=3D) point to the ben= efit of ACK-ing only 1:10 packets after the initial slow start (draft-fairh= urst-quic-ack-scaling). Since such behavior has a beneficial impact on net= works, mobile devices, and endpoint cpu, and no negative impact on the prot= ocol performance, I expect it to be in common use. With 1:10 ACK ratio, R-= bit signal is significantly delayed as it is lagging the loss by at least 1= 400*(Q=3D64)*2*10=3D1.8MB of data transferred, which is at least 38 RTTs fo= r a 15Mbps stream over a 25ms link (L-bit signal is delayed by an RTO). 4. QR scheme only works for symmetric path segments, when the observer can = capture both directions of the flow. You also cannot compute end-to-end los= s in any direction, unless both endpoints implement the entire QR algorithm= .. In contrast, QL works for single-direction observers, and whichever end= point implements QL algorithm ensures end-to-end loss signal for the packet= s it sends, and the quality of that loss signal solely depends on the quali= ty of that endpoint's implementation (not the quality of the other endpoint= 's implementation). QL seems more deployable. * Igor From: Ian Swett Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2020 3:44 PM To: Cociglio Mauro Cc: mailto:quic@ietf.org; Lubashev, Igor ; mail= to:alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com; mailto:isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; Ric= cardo Sisto ; IETF IPPM WG (mailto:ippm@ie= tf.org) Subject: Re: [ippm] New QUIC Packet Loss Measurement (draft-cfb-ippm-spinbi= t-measurements) Thanks for sharing this. From my perspective, this is an improvement upon = the previous proposal in terms of robustness. This design feels very simil= ar to the spin bit, and seems trivial to implement, which are also nice pro= perties. Also, QUIC doesn't really have retransmissions, so the 'R bit' name always = made me a bit uncomfortable. I'm not saying QUIC should adopt this yet, but I'd be interested in seeing = a privacy analysis completed for it. Ian On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 4:25 AM Cociglio Mauro wrote: Dear QUIC WG Members. We submitted to IPPM WG a draft where we described a new 2 bit packet loss = methodology (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.i= etf.org_html_draft-2Dcfb-2Dippm-2Dspinbit-2Dmeasurements-2D01&d=3DDwMFaQ&c= =3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DDjn3bQ5uNJDPM_2skfL3rW1tzcIxyjUZdn_m55KPmlo&m= =3De_BQ3UDNSWkXu_ID1rkGv3CCZs89sezu-6Ibkvltf7Y&s=3DUeTW_fLvxHy_ewVvm0y6kIqZ= oXUR8PYWgxAOxmQScYw&e=3D). The measurement of packet loss is under discussion in QUIC WG and our draft= introduces two alternatives about it. The first one is a spin-bit dependent signal and uses a single bit. The sec= ond one, described in the following linked slides, is a standalone solution= based on a two bits loss signal and on alternate marking (RFC8321).. This last methodology improves, in our opinion, the algorithm proposed by O= range and Akamai described in https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3D= https-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dferrieuxhamchaoui-2Dquic-2Dlossbits-2= D03&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DDjn3bQ5uNJDPM_2skfL3rW1tzcIxy= jUZdn_m55KPmlo&m=3De_BQ3UDNSWkXu_ID1rkGv3CCZs89sezu-6Ibkvltf7Y&s=3DV649Uqu8= mfuBWvMRBTUkpEWfpEqlLfufGs67XXzvNFo&e=3D. The 2 bits are the sQuare bit (Q-bit) and the Reflection square bit (R-bit)= .. The Q-bit doesn't change from the Ferrieux-Hamchaoui draft but the R-bit su= bstitutes the L-bit. This avoids the L-bit dependence from an internal protocol variable, a prob= lem raised in the last QUIC interim meeting. You can find the slides, we prepared for the IPPM interim meeting, at the f= ollowing link: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__githu= b.com_ietf-2Dippm_meeting-2Dmaterials_blob_aa486f7ead28b9f55c5ef499e5c9ed33= ab06daf9_ietf107-2Dvirtual_Slides_07-2Dspinbit-2Dmeasurements.pdf&d=3DDwMFa= Q&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DDjn3bQ5uNJDPM_2skfL3rW1tzcIxyjUZdn_m55KPml= o&m=3De_BQ3UDNSWkXu_ID1rkGv3CCZs89sezu-6Ibkvltf7Y&s=3D3l6t3FYQn0iz_xX0sxNFK= Unh7bwYFMOpQ0z_zNhXHpg&e=3D Comments and suggestions are always welcome. Of course we are available to present our proposals in the next QUIC WG mee= ting or to arrange a Webex side meeting if needed. Best regards. Mauro, Fabio, Giuseppe, Massimo and Riccardo _____________________ Mauro Cociglio TIM - CT.TA.EI Via G. Reiss Romoli, 274 10148 - Torino (Italy) Tel.: tel:+39%20011%20228%205028 Mobile: tel:+39%20335%20766%209751 _____________________ https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__on.tim.it_banner-2Dm= ail-2Ddip&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DDjn3bQ5uNJDPM_2skfL3rW1= tzcIxyjUZdn_m55KPmlo&m=3De_BQ3UDNSWkXu_ID1rkGv3CCZs89sezu-6Ibkvltf7Y&s=3Dz5= 5QpRg48UYrhUvomUNAlkMCUxdQT20Mz1VhZkNrLQI&e=3D Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle per= sone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dall= a conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abb= iate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di dar= ne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione= , Grazie. This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged = information intended for the addressee(s) only. 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Non stampare questa mail se non =E8 necessario. _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list mailto:ippm@ietf.org https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman= _listinfo_ippm&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DDjn3bQ5uNJDPM_2skf= L3rW1tzcIxyjUZdn_m55KPmlo&m=3De_BQ3UDNSWkXu_ID1rkGv3CCZs89sezu-6Ibkvltf7Y&s= =3DYF4GnFEgwmSakC8Bv_763sIZZR3g8t7wdsuiOl6C8fU&e=3D From nobody Thu May 14 10:16:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A1AB3A0C1C for ; Thu, 14 May 2020 10:16:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.27 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.27 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.173, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Thu, 14 May 2020 10:16:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Tommy Pauly Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_582DB960-D6FA-40AC-824B-E6BA5547CAC1" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.7.2.3\)) Message-id: Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 10:16:15 -0700 To: IETF IPPM WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.7.2.3) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.216, 18.0.676 definitions=2020-05-14_05:2020-05-14, 2020-05-14 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Second WGLC for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 17:16:24 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_582DB960-D6FA-40AC-824B-E6BA5547CAC1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi IPPM, At our virtual interim meeting, we decided to put = draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data through a second last call, based on the new = revisions, in mid-May. This email starts a two-week WGLC for this draft. The latest version can be found here: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-09 This last call will end on Thursday, May 28. Please reply to = ippm@ietf.org with your reviews and comments. Thanks, Tommy & Ian= --Apple-Mail=_582DB960-D6FA-40AC-824B-E6BA5547CAC1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi = IPPM,

At our virtual = interim meeting, we decided to put draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data = through a second last call, based on the new revisions, in mid-May. This = email starts a two-week WGLC for this draft.

The latest version can be found = here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-09

This last call = will end on Thursday, May 28. Please reply to ippm@ietf.org with your = reviews and comments.

Thanks,
Tommy & = Ian
= --Apple-Mail=_582DB960-D6FA-40AC-824B-E6BA5547CAC1-- From nobody Fri May 15 00:53:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CD9C3A087C for ; Fri, 15 May 2020 00:53:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bxH5p616-7hX for ; Fri, 15 May 2020 00:53:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxhk.zte.com.cn (mxhk.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 525003A0887 for ; 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Tue, 19 May 2020 08:50:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Greg Mirsky Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 08:50:10 -0700 Message-ID: To: IPPM Chairs , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b18d3405a6023cf6" Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Next step for STAMP Extensions X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 15:50:26 -0000 --000000000000b18d3405a6023cf6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Tommy and Ian, during the presentation of recent updates to the STAMP Extensions draft ( draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv ) at the IPPM WG interim meeting, I had mentioned that the authors believe that the document is ready for the WG LC. In the view of the authors, the document has been stable and defines a set of useful extensions to STAMP. We much appreciate your consideration of starting the WG LC on the draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv. Best regards, Greg --000000000000b18d3405a6023cf6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Tommy and Ian,
during the presentation of recent = updates to the STAMP Extensions draft (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv= ) at the IPPM WG interim meeting, I had mentioned that the authors beli= eve that the document is ready for the WG LC. In the view of the authors, t= he document has been stable and defines a set of useful extensions to STAMP= . We much appreciate your consideration of starting the WG LC on the draft-= ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv.

Best regards,
Greg
--000000000000b18d3405a6023cf6-- From nobody Fri May 22 14:15:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietf.org Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88F943A09DB; Fri, 22 May 2020 14:15:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: ippm-chairs@ietf.org, tpauly@apple.com, ippm@ietf.org, martin.h.duke@gmail.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.1.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <159018213976.25551.7140763494494903350@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 14:15:40 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] ippm - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 108 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 21:15:41 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Tommy Pauly, a Chair of the ippm working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: IP Performance Measurement Area Name: Transport Area Session Requester: Tommy Pauly Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 100 Minutes Number of Attendees: 40 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: quic httpbis taps capport Technology Overlap: tcpm 6man spring Key Participant Conflict: bmwg People who must be present: Alfred Channon Morton Martin Duke Frank Brockners Greg Mirsky Tommy Pauly Ian Swett Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri May 22 14:26:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C74E83A0C22 for ; Fri, 22 May 2020 14:26:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LmzWoebS1X8B for ; Fri, 22 May 2020 14:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x336.google.com (mail-wm1-x336.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::336]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C3913A09DD for ; 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Fri, 22 May 2020 14:26:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Ian Swett Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 17:26:11 -0400 Message-ID: To: "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f6296605a6434706" Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] WGLC for STAMP Extensions X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 21:26:28 -0000 --000000000000f6296605a6434706 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi IPPM, At our virtual interim meeting, we decided draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv was ready for last call. This email starts a two-week WGLC for this draft. The latest version can be found here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-04 This last call will end on *Monday, June 8th*. Please reply to ippm@ietf.org with your reviews and comments. Thanks, Ian & Tommy --000000000000f6296605a6434706 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi IPPM,

At our virtual interim meeting, we decided= draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv was ready for last call. This email start= s a two-week WGLC for this draft.

The latest version can be found he= re: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-04
This last call will end on Monday, June 8th. Please reply to ippm@ietf.org with your reviews and comm= ents.

Thanks,
Ian & Tommy
--000000000000f6296605a6434706-- From nobody Fri May 22 15:55:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 967983A0CBA; Fri, 22 May 2020 15:55:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lbZNCqPwEU75; Fri, 22 May 2020 15:55:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwk-aaemail-lapp01.apple.com (nwk-aaemail-lapp01.apple.com [17.151.62.66]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3F9D3A0A8B; Fri, 22 May 2020 15:55:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (nwk-aaemail-lapp01.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by nwk-aaemail-lapp01.apple.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 04MMm2O4030418; Fri, 22 May 2020 15:55:31 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=from : content-type : mime-version : subject : date : references : to : in-reply-to : message-id; s=20180706; bh=xplyOI4aE2DSxnqH+GdNkpoEmB2EroG1nLfLp5B7/fo=; b=sktuGV7KyhOzvou3SKXK04sTU+gZ49UQsbG5pk9FVlsFZWx5cWldhjmIYfGNF8FTVKEw EDhJUlrM0xzlWinardrFlcxMFs1Es0O2465HshpCDDaMp/WaVjomKD84cYyPucmfqvuH j5ZrwQA/XXCVk7l1Q3mUzx1DrCzZ3atDvk82mxAtHzx64wkeMuTP/LpXMe+kHoZrOlrv mIDgxOHhAWo5ZqUhiy+kYpsc5VytEeHI5oE9GO+WU/VHdoLshDGL+KwHw/iiBtmKBIUU 9tgEuqr2z4oVvNznF55FTLoBbdoZFmvsGrE90GxIWNGQP/Uxmw+FDiXo2iwqDkKbdUev mw== Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.150]) by nwk-aaemail-lapp01.apple.com with ESMTP id 312f42awgw-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 22 May 2020 15:55:31 -0700 Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.15]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.5.20200312 64bit (built Mar 12 2020)) with ESMTPS id <0QAR000LY90JNEH0@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Fri, 22 May 2020 15:55:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from process_milters-daemon.rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.5.20200312 64bit (built Mar 12 2020)) id <0QAR008008J5RL00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Fri, 22 May 2020 15:55:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: e84f9413fce4a5db19e712e305c62725 X-Va-E-CD: 7c78203e81a346cb87076f133b87c439 X-Va-R-CD: 7fe36c369f92c16e512d8f862f074f6f X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: 69c5a6d4-369a-4dc1-bfa5-a05e16b74738 X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: e84f9413fce4a5db19e712e305c62725 X-V-E-CD: 7c78203e81a346cb87076f133b87c439 X-V-R-CD: 7fe36c369f92c16e512d8f862f074f6f X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: 461da1ef-de27-4dde-9a91-88f58c598e89 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.216, 18.0.676 definitions=2020-05-22_11:2020-05-22, 2020-05-22 signatures=0 Received: from [17.234.114.83] (unknown [17.234.114.83]) by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.5.20200312 64bit (built Mar 12 2020)) with ESMTPSA id <0QAR0001L90F8J00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Fri, 22 May 2020 15:55:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Tommy Pauly Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_883EDF2E-456E-4251-8EB4-360A29BB44C7" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.7.2.3\)) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 15:55:27 -0700 References: To: Ian Swett , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" In-reply-to: Message-id: <4824E037-2612-4495-973C-3D5E5A642716@apple.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.7.2.3) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.216, 18.0.676 definitions=2020-05-22_11:2020-05-22, 2020-05-22 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] WGLC for STAMP Extensions X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 22:55:35 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_883EDF2E-456E-4251-8EB4-360A29BB44C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi IPPM, As part of the WGLC, we also need to assign a document shepherd. If you = are interested in helping out by shepherding this document, please email = the chairs! Also, if you are aware of any IPR on this document, please report and = let the list know. Best, Tommy & Ian > On May 22, 2020, at 2:26 PM, Ian Swett = wrote: >=20 > Hi IPPM, >=20 > At our virtual interim meeting, we decided = draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv was ready for last call. This email = starts a two-week WGLC for this draft. >=20 > The latest version can be found here: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-04 = >=20 > This last call will end on Monday, June 8th. Please reply to = ippm@ietf.org with your reviews and comments. >=20 > Thanks, > Ian & Tommy > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --Apple-Mail=_883EDF2E-456E-4251-8EB4-360A29BB44C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi = IPPM,

As part of the = WGLC, we also need to assign a document shepherd. If you are interested = in helping out by shepherding this document, please email the = chairs!

Also, = if you are aware of any IPR on this document, please report and let the = list know.

Best,
Tommy & Ian

On May 22, 2020, at 2:26 PM, Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> = wrote:

Hi IPPM,

At our = virtual interim meeting, we decided draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv was = ready for last call. This email starts a two-week WGLC for this = draft.

The latest version can be found = here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-04=

This last call will end on Monday, June 8th. Please reply to ippm@ietf.org with your = reviews and comments.

Thanks,
Ian & Tommy
_______________________________________________
ippm = mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

= --Apple-Mail=_883EDF2E-456E-4251-8EB4-360A29BB44C7-- From nobody Fri May 22 16:04:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A58C73A0DF3; Fri, 22 May 2020 16:03:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7m7g5VvsQxaC; Fri, 22 May 2020 16:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com [17.171.2.60]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DDAB3A0DEB; 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Fri, 22 May 2020 16:03:54 -0700 Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.15]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp04.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.5.20200312 64bit (built Mar 12 2020)) with ESMTPS id <0QAR00H399EGG4A0@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp04.rno.apple.com>; Fri, 22 May 2020 16:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from process_milters-daemon.rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.5.20200312 64bit (built Mar 12 2020)) id <0QAR00O009DO3Y00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Fri, 22 May 2020 16:03:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: 0a055ea1a755d1f56c7c402a95c1636c X-Va-E-CD: b2548c6fd1f19c3dda08bf7eee285dd4 X-Va-R-CD: abc7bc91d4e13e0199ee89c2c812300f X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: 8f8e7e8a-dc5e-4e1d-ba61-605119e0bb62 X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: 0a055ea1a755d1f56c7c402a95c1636c X-V-E-CD: b2548c6fd1f19c3dda08bf7eee285dd4 X-V-R-CD: abc7bc91d4e13e0199ee89c2c812300f X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: bebca56d-cd1f-4707-9d48-f1c15e5de3f3 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.216, 18.0.676 definitions=2020-05-22_11:2020-05-22, 2020-05-22 signatures=0 Received: from [17.234.29.3] (unknown [17.234.29.3]) by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.5.20200312 64bit (built Mar 12 2020)) with ESMTPSA id <0QAR00J4A9ED4900@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Fri, 22 May 2020 16:03:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Adi Masputra Message-id: Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_346A8BFD-60E0-4D5C-BB37-9CC47160E5C4"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256 MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 16:03:49 -0700 In-reply-to: <4824E037-2612-4495-973C-3D5E5A642716@apple.com> Cc: adi masputra , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" To: Tommy Pauly , Ian Swett References: <4824E037-2612-4495-973C-3D5E5A642716@apple.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.216, 18.0.676 definitions=2020-05-22_11:2020-05-22, 2020-05-22 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] WGLC for STAMP Extensions X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 23:03:59 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_346A8BFD-60E0-4D5C-BB37-9CC47160E5C4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B9AAFA20-DCCC-4B21-BB3D-CC0888D822DB" --Apple-Mail=_B9AAFA20-DCCC-4B21-BB3D-CC0888D822DB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Tommy & Ian, I=E2=80=99m not aware of any IPR from my side. Thanks, Adi > On May 22, 2020, at 15:55, Tommy Pauly = wrote: >=20 > Hi IPPM, >=20 > As part of the WGLC, we also need to assign a document shepherd. If = you are interested in helping out by shepherding this document, please = email the chairs! >=20 > Also, if you are aware of any IPR on this document, please report and = let the list know. >=20 > Best, > Tommy & Ian >=20 >> On May 22, 2020, at 2:26 PM, Ian Swett = > wrote: >>=20 >> Hi IPPM, >>=20 >> At our virtual interim meeting, we decided = draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv was ready for last call. This email = starts a two-week WGLC for this draft. >>=20 >> The latest version can be found here: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-04 = >>=20 >> This last call will end on Monday, June 8th. Please reply to = ippm@ietf.org with your reviews and comments. >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Ian & Tommy >> _______________________________________________ >> ippm mailing list >> ippm@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --Apple-Mail=_B9AAFA20-DCCC-4B21-BB3D-CC0888D822DB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Tommy & Ian,

I=E2=80= =99m not aware of any IPR from my side.

Thanks,
Adi

On May 22, 2020, at 15:55, Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Hi IPPM,

As part of the WGLC, we = also need to assign a document shepherd. If you are interested in = helping out by shepherding this document, please email the = chairs!

Also, = if you are aware of any IPR on this document, please report and let the = list know.

Best,
Tommy & Ian

On May 22, 2020, at 2:26 PM, Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> = wrote:

Hi IPPM,

At our = virtual interim meeting, we decided draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv was = ready for last call. This email starts a two-week WGLC for this = draft.

The latest version can be found = here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-04=

This last call will end on Monday, June 8th. Please reply to ippm@ietf.org with your = reviews and comments.

Thanks,
Ian & Tommy
_______________________________________________
ippm = mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

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with SMTP id k3mr8809263lfg.33.1590195832602; Fri, 22 May 2020 18:03:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 18:03:41 -0700 Message-ID: To: Ian Swett Cc: "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b9c2fc05a6465173" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] WGLC for STAMP Extensions X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 01:03:58 -0000 --000000000000b9c2fc05a6465173 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, I support (as a co-author) the publication of this draft. Extensions specified in the document are important and address a number of practical use cases of STAMP deployment. Also, I'm not aware of any IPR related to this draft. Regards, Greg On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 2:26 PM Ian Swett wrote: > Hi IPPM, > > At our virtual interim meeting, we decided > draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv was ready for last call. This email starts > a two-week WGLC for this draft. > > The latest version can be found here: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-04 > > This last call will end on *Monday, June 8th*. Please reply to > ippm@ietf.org with your reviews and comments. > > Thanks, > Ian & Tommy > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > --000000000000b9c2fc05a6465173 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear All,
I support (as a co-author) the publication o= f this draft. Extensions specified in the document are important and addres= s a number of practical use cases of STAMP deployment.

=
Also, I'm not aware of any IPR related to this draft.
Regards,
Greg

On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 2:26 PM I= an Swett <ianswett=3D40go= ogle.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Hi IPPM,

At our virtual inte= rim meeting, we decided draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv was ready for last= call. This email starts a two-week WGLC for this draft.

The latest = version can be found here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/d= raft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-04

This last call will end on Monday, June 8th. Please reply to ippm@ietf.org with your reviews and comments.

Tha= nks,
Ian & Tommy
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ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
--000000000000b9c2fc05a6465173-- From nobody Fri May 22 18:42:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B9933A0D5C for ; Fri, 22 May 2020 18:42:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SXwunAD6l2lB for ; Fri, 22 May 2020 18:42:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2DF0B3A0D5E for ; Fri, 22 May 2020 18:42:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml709-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 5767ADEEF2067D9EE6C1 for ; Sat, 23 May 2020 02:42:08 +0100 (IST) Received: from nkgeml709-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.40) by lhreml709-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.58) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Sat, 23 May 2020 02:42:07 +0100 Received: from nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.157) by nkgeml709-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.40) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Sat, 23 May 2020 09:42:05 +0800 Received: from nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.157]) by nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.157]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Sat, 23 May 2020 09:42:05 +0800 From: Tianran Zhou To: Ian Swett CC: IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: [ippm] WGLC for STAMP Extensions Thread-Index: AQHWMH+2N2VBgSiYq0+BnuJVd8y5Z6i05bqk Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 01:42:05 +0000 Message-ID: <31f51a1f55184e42a79125830f42c80b@huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_31f51a1f55184e42a79125830f42c80bhuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] WGLC for STAMP Extensions X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 May 2020 01:42:14 -0000 --_000_31f51a1f55184e42a79125830f42c80bhuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgV0csDQoNCkkgc3VwcG9ydCB0aGUgcHVibGljYXRpb24gb2YgdGhpcyBkcmFmdC4NCg0KQ2hl ZXJzLA0KVGlhbnJhbg0KDQoNCg0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0K DQpTZW50IGZyb20gV2VMaW5rDQq3orz+yMujuiBJYW4gU3dldHQ8aWFuc3dldHQ9NDBnb29nbGUu Y29tQGRtYXJjLmlldGYub3JnPG1haWx0bzppYW5zd2V0dD00MGdvb2dsZS5jb21AZG1hcmMuaWV0 Zi5vcmc+Pg0KytW8/sjLo7ogSUVURiBJUFBNIFdHIChpcHBtPGlwcG1AaWV0Zi5vcmc8bWFpbHRv OmlwcG1AaWV0Zi5vcmc+Pg0K1vfM4qO6IFtpcHBtXSBXR0xDIGZvciBTVEFNUCBFeHRlbnNpb25z DQrKsbzko7ogMjAyMC0wNS0yMyAwNToyNjo1Mw0KDQpIaSBJUFBNLA0KDQpBdCBvdXIgdmlydHVh bCBpbnRlcmltIG1lZXRpbmcsIHdlIGRlY2lkZWQgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1pcHBtLXN0YW1wLW9wdGlv bi10bHYgd2FzIHJlYWR5IGZvciBsYXN0IGNhbGwuIFRoaXMgZW1haWwgc3RhcnRzIGEgdHdvLXdl ZWsgV0dMQyBmb3IgdGhpcyBkcmFmdC4NCg0KVGhlIGxhdGVzdCB2ZXJzaW9uIGNhbiBiZSBmb3Vu ZCBoZXJlOiBodHRwczovL3Rvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1pcHBtLXN0YW1w LW9wdGlvbi10bHYtMDQNCg0KVGhpcyBsYXN0IGNhbGwgd2lsbCBlbmQgb24gTW9uZGF5LCBKdW5l IDh0aC4gUGxlYXNlIHJlcGx5IHRvIGlwcG1AaWV0Zi5vcmc8bWFpbHRvOmlwcG1AaWV0Zi5vcmc+ IHdpdGggeW91ciByZXZpZXdzIGFuZCBjb21tZW50cy4NCg0KVGhhbmtzLA0KSWFuICYgVG9tbXkN Cg== --_000_31f51a1f55184e42a79125830f42c80bhuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi WG,

I support the&nbs= p;publication of this draft.

Cheers,
Tianran 





Sent from WeLink<= /span>
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Ian Swett<ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org= >
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA IETF IPPM WG (ippm<ippm@ietf.org>
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA [ippm] WGLC for STAMP Extensions
=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2020-05-23 05:26:53

Hi IPPM,

At our virtual interim meeting, we decided draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv= was ready for last call. This email starts a two-week WGLC for this draft.=

The latest version can be found here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-04

This last call will end on Monday, June 8th. Please reply to ippm@ietf.org with your reviews and comments.

Thanks,
Ian & Tommy
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cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Sun, 24 May 2020 12:43:51 +0200 Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) by fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Sun, 24 May 2020 12:43:51 +0200 From: Giuseppe Fioccola To: Ian Swett , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Thread-Topic: [ippm] WGLC for STAMP Extensions Thread-Index: AQHWMH+3sszNDfsHy0+SIYqXIYvhjKi3DqVA Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 10:43:51 +0000 Message-ID: <81e0bc24b17546629d952cc382f65cdf@huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.9.188] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_81e0bc24b17546629d952cc382f65cdfhuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] WGLC for STAMP Extensions X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group 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for ; Sun, 24 May 2020 04:49:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3W5jywpFbBoL for ; Sun, 24 May 2020 04:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9AD573A0A5F for ; Sun, 24 May 2020 04:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml709-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id B38FE4BA46952CC3554A for ; Sun, 24 May 2020 12:49:41 +0100 (IST) Received: from lhreml709-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.58) by lhreml709-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.58) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Sun, 24 May 2020 12:49:41 +0100 Received: from DGGEML405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.49) by lhreml709-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.58) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA_P256) id 15.1.1913.5 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 24 May 2020 12:49:41 +0100 Received: from DGGEML524-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.54]) by dggeml405-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.3.17.49]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Sun, 24 May 2020 19:49:36 +0800 From: wangyali To: "ippm@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Questions about draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state Thread-Index: AdYxv7teg1vaP9pKRO+OVDyrWBO9tw== Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 11:49:35 +0000 Message-ID: <1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F404E70E53@dggeml524-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.45.174.162] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F404E70E53dggeml524mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Questions about draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 11:49:49 -0000 --_000_1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F404E70E53dggeml524mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi authors, This is Yali. This is an interesting work. I have following two questions. First, is the list of Namespace-IDs the subset or all of Namespaces which t= he IOAM encapsulating node belongs to? If it is, I suggest adding some word= s to illustrate this. Second, could this extension to the echo request/reply mechanisms also be u= sed in ICMP defined for IPv4? In my opinion, as the Information Request and Reply Type=3D15 and Type=3D16= have been obsolete [RFC6918], so it could be used as the IOAM Capability e= cho request/reply messages to acquire the enabled IOAM capabilities. Thanks, Yali --_000_1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F404E70E53dggeml524mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi authors,

 

This is Yali. This is an interesting work. I have fo= llowing two questions.

 

First, is the list of Namespace-IDs the subset or al= l of Namespaces which the IOAM encapsulating node belongs to? If it is, I s= uggest adding some words to illustrate this.

 

Second, could this extension to the echo request/rep= ly mechanisms also be used in ICMP defined for IPv4?

 

In my opinion, as the Information Request and Reply = Type=3D15 and Type=3D16 have been obsolete [RFC6918], so it could be used a= s the IOAM Capability echo request/reply messages to acquire the enabled IO= AM capabilities.

 

Thanks,

Yali

 

--_000_1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F404E70E53dggeml524mbxchi_-- From nobody Sun May 24 22:47:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACE2D3A0BE3 for ; Sun, 24 May 2020 22:47:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=accedian-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lPILsRibQTKY for ; Sun, 24 May 2020 22:47:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x42e.google.com (mail-wr1-x42e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96FE53A0BCF for ; Sun, 24 May 2020 22:47:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id j10so327118wrw.8 for ; Sun, 24 May 2020 22:47:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=accedian-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5T+DCDKvQ0cV8B8TDm01J73NpJI3jw9are7bFfGsBEE=; b=MWzsyKVVV98HI8bJf7FMkAcTG3qifpkQLO+askZbhKvkQDaNp2SZuRxQGVQhtJff/+ ps09wLPYFWDUD7ZA9ybreu1wi1+3mKy2hZmn1h2Ei5yGxLZCtOvFFUWhOtiohcqQoaqv CAlgIFuRS4QX5gdoE6I40bEfbtt4qKA9w9p/yEe9hWwQQLwY8h4Wdtzr2Yh4PS6Ev/j+ CA5bF4t263pDNNm1np1gZd7SEiCuQz8OzRiItWr5nTjV28MvHj/ENhNBQprUBguYgBNA ZPJTTwZz3tbdiITSAwhadOOnkNukjrWd4D/hrniFVWYFBYF2jtvwqH6yd2YVrYF8pws2 HE5Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5T+DCDKvQ0cV8B8TDm01J73NpJI3jw9are7bFfGsBEE=; b=qtoGv88yDKt8eAqNHw7kaR2ovaYc11/cFqGHfrvXU433T6ybNW+nQL0EKwm83D494Z 56JmhsqFvTimvz9QNSWGdjKlV0mof7F4/F3jS1sWlLv4fUFhkwP/wxTQ0Ipfd3aCTurn LSVYwLMVxoXLb0mX8rwkobRS728SZeiLC/GsKibViJQu5rsgUrSXEhi4VXwafTfMQbX3 FQMqJEfEyPMk63edu0oTBWOSaacbwTEaaSu58j7Lu1W4JlwzBZKgT2VvXtuI08qce/j7 Pxb+nMXqzmtZWfmJ7cvgg3wiC3c/8STgUEp/Lwio88DR0Lm/5R81mLihlQgTnlo8CjVr evEQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5339ivtLnrIMSIaqnqfTHfenw2+8UyGspzEIEQyarSMoT5S5SfkL UXyC8UBEUaW4gOmn4ruTm6/jOyk7c9XoOooFJTw7WlM8Hh3X8Wc7Q3NAYdkvRVXRgJQ2K0FrOve g/NtaT8qwJw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxZqVI+Fvy8MVFxnSLA6sUv26SjWHq8UbY3V1+aOK9+UKG1KSUU58uDzusrr/a541EyBVpwOiwcP0ldoal5x8M= X-Received: by 2002:adf:a396:: with SMTP id l22mr13306423wrb.76.1590385629163; Sun, 24 May 2020 22:47:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4824E037-2612-4495-973C-3D5E5A642716@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <4824E037-2612-4495-973C-3D5E5A642716@apple.com> From: Henrik Nydell Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 07:46:57 +0200 Message-ID: To: Tommy Pauly Cc: Ian Swett , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007b87e705a6728245" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] WGLC for STAMP Extensions X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 05:47:16 -0000 --0000000000007b87e705a6728245 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As co-author I support the publication, and am not aware of any IPR related to this document. Cheers Henrik On Sat, 23 May 2020, 00:55 Tommy Pauly, wrote: > Hi IPPM, > > As part of the WGLC, we also need to assign a document shepherd. If you > are interested in helping out by shepherding this document, please email > the chairs! > > Also, if you are aware of any IPR on this document, please report and let > the list know. > > Best, > Tommy & Ian > > On May 22, 2020, at 2:26 PM, Ian Swett < > ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Hi IPPM, > > At our virtual interim meeting, we decided > draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv was ready for last call. This email star= ts > a two-week WGLC for this draft. > > The latest version can be found here: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-04 > > This last call will end on *Monday, June 8th*. Please reply to > ippm@ietf.org with your reviews and comments. > > Thanks, > Ian & Tommy > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > --=20 Avis de confidentialit=C3=A9 Les informations contenues dans le pr=C3=A9sent=20 message et dans toute pi=C3=A8ce qui=20 lui est jointe sont confidentielles et=20 peuvent =C3=AAtre prot=C3=A9g=C3=A9es par le=20 secret professionnel. Ces informations sont=20 =C3=A0 l=E2=80=99usage exclusif de son ou de ses destinataires. Si vous recevez ce=20 message par erreur, veuillez=20 s=E2=80=99il vous plait communiquer imm=C3=A9diatement=20 avec l=E2=80=99exp=C3=A9diteur et en=20 d=C3=A9truire tout exemplaire. De plus, il vous est=20 strictement interdit de=20 le divulguer, de le distribuer ou de le reproduire=20 sans l=E2=80=99autorisation=20 de l=E2=80=99exp=C3=A9diteur. Merci. Confidentiality notice This e-mail message and any attachment hereto contain confidential=20 information=20 which may be privileged and which is intended for the=20 exclusive use of its=20 addressee(s). If you receive this message in error, please inform sender=20 immediately and destroy any copy thereof.=20 Furthermore, any disclosure,=20 distribution or copying of this message=20 and/or any attachment hereto=20 without the consent of the sender is=20 strictly prohibited. Thank you. --0000000000007b87e705a6728245 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As co-author I support the publication, and am not aware = of any IPR related to this document.

Cheers
Henrik=C2=A0

On Sat, 23 May 2020,= 00:55 Tommy Pauly, <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Hi IPPM,

As part of the WGLC, we also need to assign a = document shepherd. If you are interested in helping out by shepherding this= document, please email the chairs!

Also, if you a= re aware of any IPR on this document, please report and let the list know.<= /div>

Best,
Tommy & Ian

On May 22, 2020, at 2:26 PM, Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Hi IPPM,

At our virtual interim meeting, we d= ecided draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv was ready for last call. This email= starts a two-week WGLC for this draft.

The latest version can be fo= und here: https://tools.ietf.org/html= /draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-04

This last call will end on = Monday, June 8th. Please reply to ippm@ietf.org with your reviews and= comments.

Thanks,
Ian & Tommy
_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@iet= f.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

____________________________= ___________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@= ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm<= br>

Avis de confidentialit=C3=A9

Les informations contenues dans le pr=C3=A9sent message et dans toute pi=C3=A8= ce qui=20 lui est jointe sont confidentielles et peuvent =C3=AAtre prot=C3=A9g=C3=A9e= s par le=20 secret professionnel. Ces informations sont =C3=A0 l=E2=80=99usage exclusif= de son ou de ses destinataires. Si vous recevez ce message par erreur, veuillez=20 s=E2=80=99il vous plait communiquer imm=C3=A9diatement avec l=E2=80=99exp= =C3=A9diteur et en=20 d=C3=A9truire tout exemplaire. De plus, il vous est strictement interdit de= =20 le divulguer, de le distribuer ou de le reproduire sans l=E2=80=99autorisat= ion=20 de l=E2=80=99exp=C3=A9diteur. Merci.

Confidentiality notice

This e-mail message and any attachment hereto contain confidential=20 information which may be privileged and which is intended for the=20 exclusive use of its addressee(s). If you receive this message in error, please inform sender immediately and destroy any copy thereof.=20 Furthermore, any disclosure, distribution or copying of this message=20 and/or any attachment hereto without the consent of the sender is=20 strictly prohibited. Thank you.

--0000000000007b87e705a6728245-- From nobody Mon May 25 01:24:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CD743A0D24 for ; Mon, 25 May 2020 01:24:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.518 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.518 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.276, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FINXvSUiXP_a for ; Mon, 25 May 2020 01:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webmailsmtp.register.it (webmailsmtp28.register.it [81.88.63.153]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 199B03A09F5 for ; Mon, 25 May 2020 01:24:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from popper37.register.it ([172.21.17.37]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id d8PYjEjfbJh1td8PYjKuLK; Mon, 25 May 2020 10:24:48 +0200 Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 10:24:40 +0200 (CEST) From: Ernesto Ruffini To: Ian Swett Cc: "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Message-ID: <251947138.95903.1590395080744@webmail.register.it> In-Reply-To: References: <4824E037-2612-4495-973C-3D5E5A642716@apple.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.8.4-Rev68 X-Originating-IP: 2.235.97.204 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfCdVZFsE7HJtZzo/Bmi6UalghUpCeEg+F8m07ZdbovDxeg05S4gfcpv1LV5qf3RTchCTzDm2odGyrmY4WlABXt6GXHNmxphkO4bruYeAHXRMaasTs0Hl xR3gRu8rRo9uG8zS9+Nze13tta3+DSKtrqvX0Jc9VDWYb9MNL4YncHWbZPk3AoO1QF+KsnlA/tEZLX44n4unO4CN4rxmJoM+J0EeuB0+CkicqbKhOOyYtXyt Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] WGLC for STAMP Extensions X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 08:24:54 -0000

Hi,

As co-author, I support the publication of this d= raft, and I am not aware of any IPR related to this draft

Regards,

Ernesto



Il 25 maggio= 2020 alle 7.46 Henrik Nydell <hnydell@accedian.com> ha scritto:
As co-author I support the publication, and am not= aware of any IPR related to this document.

Cheers
Henrik 

On Sat, 23 May 2020, 00:55 Tommy Pauly, <tpauly=3D 40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>= ; wrote:
Hi IPP= M,

As part of the WGLC, we also need to assign a documen= t shepherd. If you are interested in helping out by shepherding this docume= nt, please email the chairs!

Also, if you are awar= e of any IPR on this document, please report and let the list know.

Best,
Tommy & Ian

On May 22, 2020, at 2:26 PM, Ian Swett < ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Hi IPPM,

At our virtual interim meeting, we deci= ded draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv was ready for last call. This email st= arts a two-week WGLC for this draft.

The latest version can be fou= nd here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr= aft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-04

This last call will end on <= strong>Monday, June 8th. Please reply to ippm@ietf.org with your revi= ews and comments.

Thanks,
Ian & Tommy
_______________= ________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

__________________________________________= _____
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://= www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

Avis de confidentialité

Les informations contenues dans le pr= 33;sent message et dans toute pièce qui lui est jointe sont confidenti= elles et peuvent être protégées par le secret professionnel.= Ces informations sont à l’usage exclusif de son ou de ses desti= nataires. Si vous recevez ce message par erreur, veuillez s’il vous p= lait communiquer immédiatement avec l’expéditeur et en d= 33;truire tout exemplaire. De plus, il vous est strictement interdit de le = divulguer, de le distribuer ou de le reproduire sans l’autorisation d= e l’expéditeur. Merci.

Confidentiality notice

This e-mail message and any attachment hereto contain confidential i= nformation which may be privileged and which is intended for the exclusive = use of its addressee(s). If you receive this message in error, please infor= m sender immediately and destroy any copy thereof. Furthermore, any disclos= ure, distribution or copying of this message and/or any attachment hereto w= ithout the consent of the sender is strictly prohibited. Thank you.<= /p>_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
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14:57:34 -0700 Message-ID: To: Tommy Pauly Cc: IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a0079d05a68011c1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Second WGLC for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 May 2020 21:57:52 -0000 --000000000000a0079d05a68011c1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Authors, thank you for carefully and thoughtfully addressing my earlier comments, much appreciated. I've found the document ready with single lonely nit that is clearly non-blocking: - [I-D.lapukhov-dataplane-probe] is listed in the Informative References section but not used in the text. Regards, Greg On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:16 AM Tommy Pauly wrote: > Hi IPPM, > > At our virtual interim meeting, we decided to > put draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data through a second last call, based on the new > revisions, in mid-May. This email starts a two-week WGLC for this draft. > > The latest version can be found here: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-09 > > This last call will end on *Thursday, May 28*. Please reply to > ippm@ietf.org with your reviews and comments. > > Thanks, > Tommy & Ian > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > --000000000000a0079d05a68011c1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Authors,
thank you for carefully and thoughtfully= =C2=A0addressing my earlier comments, much appreciated. I've found the = document ready with single lonely nit that is clearly non-blocking:
  • [I-D.lapukhov-dataplane-probe] is listed in the Informative Refe= rences section but not used in the text.=C2=A0

=
Regards,
Greg

On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:16 AM To= mmy Pauly <tpauly=3D40appl= e.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Hi IPPM,
=
At our virtual interim meeting, we decided to put=C2=A0draft= -ietf-ippm-ioam-data through a second last call, based on the new revisions= , in mid-May. This email starts a two-week WGLC for this draft.
<= br>
The latest version can be found here:=C2=A0https:= //tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-09

=
This last call will end on Thursday, May 28. Please reply to ippm@ietf.org with you= r reviews and comments.

Thanks,
Tommy &a= mp; Ian
_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
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Tue, 26 May 2020 16:23:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Martin Duke Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 16:23:39 -0700 Message-ID: To: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data.all@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005c725705a69563d4" Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] draft-ippm-ioam-data-09 WGLC comments X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 May 2020 23:23:58 -0000 --0000000000005c725705a69563d4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" This document is almost ready. I have a few review comments and a trail of nits. Comments: 1. It's RFC Ed policy to have no more than 5 authors, and you have 12. Please follow these guidelines to trim the list down. 2. Throughout the document, there are many lower-case 'must', 'should', or 'may.' These should be reviewed, and most of them changed to upper-case. Non-upper-case should generally use synonyms like 'might' or 'could'. 3. Section 4.2 says that transit nodes "will update at most one of these Option Types". I think you mean "at least one of each of these option types", at least if I'm reading 4.4 correctly. 4. Section 4.4.1 has many normative requirements for the options. What should transit nodes do if these are not followed (e.g. remainingLen is a garbage number)? Perhaps there should be an "error flag" in addition to the Overflow flag? 5. does the pre-allocated option have any sort of initial value the encapsulation node should set all the trace option data to? Would this allow the transit nodes to detect if there was a mistake in RemainingLen? Nits: Sec 3. s/using for example packet/using, for example, packet s/but do not have to share/but do not have to, share s/data-plane/data planes Sec 4.3 s/at average/on average Sec 4.4 s/hardware and software implementations IOAM/hardware and software implementations, IOAM s/data.The/data. The s/devices which either/devices with either Sec 4.4.1 suggest the sentence 'This bit is set by the network element if there are not enough octets left to record node data, no field is added and the overflow "O-bit" must be set to "1" in the IOAM-Trace-Option header.' be rewritten as 'If there are not enought octets left to record node data, the network element MUST NOT add a field and MUST set the overflow "O-bit" to "0" in the IOAM-Trace-Option header.' s/When set indicates/When set, indicates [multiple times in this section] Sec 4.4.2 This section could use some subheaders for each node data field s/hence recommend/and hence RECOMMEND s/standard unit/standard units Sec 4.5 Please add a reference for SSSS Sec 5.3 s/run Linux/run the Linux Sec 7.8 RFC 8126 says you are supposed to provide guidelines for the expert reviewer. -- Martin --0000000000005c725705a69563d4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This document is almost ready. I have a few review comment= s and a trail of nits.

Comments:
1. It's R= FC Ed policy to have no more than 5 authors, and you have 12. Please follow these g= uidelines to trim the list down.
2. Throughout the docume= nt, there are many lower-case 'must', 'should', or 'may= .' These should be reviewed, and most of them changed to upper-case. No= n-upper-case should generally use synonyms like 'might' or 'cou= ld'.
3. Section 4.2 says that transit nodes "will up= date at most one of these Option Types". I think you mean "at lea= st one of each of these option types", at least if I'm reading 4.4= correctly.
4. Section 4.4.1 has many normative requirements for = the options. What should transit nodes do if these are not followed (e.g. r= emainingLen is a garbage number)? Perhaps there should be an "error fl= ag" in addition to the Overflow flag?
5. does the pre-alloca= ted option have any sort of initial value the encapsulation node should set= all the trace option data to? Would this allow the transit nodes to detect= if there was a mistake in RemainingLen?

Nits:
Sec 3.
s/using for example packet/using, for example,= packet
s/but do not have to share/but do not have to, share
s/data-plane/data planes

Sec 4.3 s/at averag= e/on average

Sec 4.4
s/hardware and= software implementations IOAM/hardware and software implementations, IOAM<= /div>
s/data.The/data. The
s/devices which either/devices wit= h either

Sec 4.4.1
suggest the sentence<= br>
'This bit is set by the network element if there are not = enough octets left to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0record node data= , no field is added and the overflow "O-bit"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0must be set to "1" in the IOAM-Trace-Option head= er.'
be rewritten as
'If there are not enought = octets left to record node data, the network element MUST NOT add a field a= nd MUST set the overflow "O-bit" to "0" in the IOAM-Tra= ce-Option header.'

s/When set indicates/When s= et, indicates [multiple times in this section]

Sec= 4.4.2
This section could use some subheaders for each node data = field

s/hence recommend/and hence RECOMMEND
<= div>s/standard unit/standard units

Sec 4.5
Please add a reference for SSSS

Sec 5.3
s/run Linux/run the Linux

Sec 7.8
RFC= 8126 says you are supposed to provide guidelines for the expert reviewer.<= /div>

-- Martin


<= div>



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X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: a0349814-695e-4164-9442-1a1323dd262a X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.216, 18.0.687 definitions=2020-05-27_04:2020-05-27, 2020-05-27 signatures=0 Received: from [17.235.50.9] (unknown [17.235.50.9]) by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp03.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.5.20200312 64bit (built Mar 12 2020)) with ESMTPSA id <0QB000GE7T5ZDK00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp03.rno.apple.com>; Wed, 27 May 2020 19:49:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Tommy Pauly Message-id: Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_11E16886-EEA2-4DAD-BED2-30D4D691255C" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.7.2.3\)) Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 19:49:11 -0700 In-reply-to: <202005271721263284249@zte.com.cn> Cc: "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" To: xiao.min2@zte.com.cn, wangyali11@huawei.com References: <202005261657347762187@zte.com.cn> <1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F404E7ADD6@dggeml524-mbx.china.huawei.com> <202005271721263284249@zte.com.cn> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.7.2.3) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.216, 18.0.687 definitions=2020-05-27_04:2020-05-27, 2020-05-27 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Questions about draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 02:51:16 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_11E16886-EEA2-4DAD-BED2-30D4D691255C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 To be clear regarding IPv4, the guidance in previous meetings has been = that a standard IPv4 extension is almost certainly not something that = would progress as a standard. I would suggest not basing work on the = presence of such an IPv4 extension. Best, Tommy > On May 27, 2020, at 2:21 AM, xiao.min2@zte.com.cn wrote: >=20 > Hi Yali, >=20 >=20 >=20 > This draft is a supportive document to IOAM encapsulations, so I = believe it's too early to consider concrete ICMPv4 extensions, before = there is rough consensus on IOAM over IPv4 encapsulation. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Best Regards, >=20 > Xiao Min >=20 > =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6 > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9Awangyali > > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A=E8=82=96=E6=95=8F10093570; > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9Aippm@ietf.org = >; > =E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A2020=E5=B9=B405=E6=9C=8827=E6=97=A5 10:11 > =E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9ARE: Re:[ippm] Questions about = draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state > Hi Min, > =20 > Thanks for your reply. Please see inline [Yali]. > =20 > Best regards, > Yali > =20 > From: xiao.min2@zte.com.cn [mailto:xiao.min2@zte.com.cn] > Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 4:58 PM > To: wangyali > Cc: ippm@ietf.org > Subject: Re:[ippm] Questions about draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state > =20 > Hi Yali, >=20 > =20 >=20 > Many thanks for your review and questions. >=20 > Please see my inline reply with . >=20 > =20 >=20 > Best Regards, >=20 > Xiao Min >=20 > =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6 > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9Awangyali > > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9Aippm@ietf.org = >; > =E6=97=A5=E6=9C=9F=EF=BC=9A2020=E5=B9=B405=E6=9C=8824=E6=97=A5 19:50 > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A[ippm] Questions about = draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm = > Hi authors, > =20 > This is Yali. This is an interesting work. I have following two = questions. > =20 > First, is the list of Namespace-IDs the subset or all of Namespaces = which the IOAM encapsulating node belongs to? If it is, I suggest adding = some words to illustrate this. > Yes, you're correct. I'll make it more clear in the next = revision. > [Yali] OK. Thanks. > Second, could this extension to the echo request/reply mechanisms also = be used in ICMP defined for IPv4? > In theory the mechanism described in this draft can also apply = to ICMPv4, whereas I believe ICMPv4 needs to be taken into account only = after the IOAM over IPv4 is defined. Currently the IOAM over IPv6 has = been adopted in IPPM WG as draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options, if you're = interested, we can work together on ICMPv6 first. > [Yali] IOAM over IPv6 is important. While considering a scenario that = IOAM applied in the legacy IPv4 network, I think the problem of echo = request/reply IOAM node capabilities also needs to be taken account. But = it may be discussed in another draft later. > In my opinion, as the Information Request and Reply Type=3D15 and = Type=3D16 have been obsolete [RFC6918], so it could be used as the IOAM = Capability echo request/reply messages to acquire the enabled IOAM = capabilities. > [Yali] Do you think this is a way to request/reply IOAM capabilities? > Thanks, > Yali > =20 > =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --Apple-Mail=_11E16886-EEA2-4DAD-BED2-30D4D691255C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 To = be clear regarding IPv4, the guidance in previous meetings has been that = a standard IPv4 extension is almost certainly not something that would = progress as a standard. I would suggest not basing work on the presence = of such an IPv4 extension.

Best,
Tommy

On May = 27, 2020, at 2:21 AM, xiao.min2@zte.com.cn wrote:

Hi Yali,


This = draft is a supportive document to IOAM encapsulations, so I believe it's = too early to consider concrete ICMPv4 extensions, before there is rough = consensus on IOAM over IPv4 encapsulation.


Best Regards,

Xiao Min

=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF= =BC=9Awangyali <wangyali11@huawei.com>
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A=E8=82=96=E6=95=8F10093570;
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC= =9Aippm@ietf.org <ippm@ietf.org>;
=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F = =EF=BC=9A2020=E5=B9=B405=E6=9C=8827=E6=97=A5 = 10:11
=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 = =EF=BC=9ARE: = Re:[ippm] Questions about = draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state
Hi Min,
 
Thanks for your reply. = Please see inline [Yali].
 
Best regards,
Yali
 
From: xiao.min2@zte.com.cn = [mailto:xiao.min2@zte.com.cn]
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 4:58 = PM
To: wangyali <wangyali11@huawei.com>
Cc: ippm@ietf.org
Subject: Re:[ippm] Questions about = draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state
 

Hi Yali,

 

Many thanks for your review and questions.

Please see my inline reply with <XM>.

 

Best Regards,

Xiao Min

=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9Awangyali <wangyali11@huawei.com>
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9Aippm@ietf.org <ippm@ietf.org>;
=E6=97=A5=E6=9C=9F=EF=BC=9A2020=E5=B9=B405=E6=9C=8824=E6=97=A5 19:50
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A[ippm] Questions about = draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state

_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

Hi authors,
 
This is Yali. This is an interesting work. I have following = two questions.
 
First, is the list of Namespace-IDs the = subset or all of Namespaces which the IOAM encapsulating node belongs = to? If it is, I suggest adding some words to illustrate this.
<XM>  Yes, you're correct. I'll make it more clear = in the next revision.
 [Yali] OK. Thanks.
Second, could this extension to the echo request/reply = mechanisms also be used in ICMP defined for IPv4?
<XM>  In theory the mechanism described in this = draft can also apply to ICMPv4, whereas I believe ICMPv4 needs to be = taken into account only after the IOAM over IPv4 is defined. Currently = the IOAM over IPv6 has been adopted in IPPM WG = as draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options, if you're interested, we can = work together on ICMPv6 first.
 [Yali] IOAM over IPv6 is = important. While considering a scenario that IOAM applied in the legacy = IPv4 network, I think the problem of echo request/reply IOAM node = capabilities also needs to be taken account. But it may be discussed in = another draft later.
In my opinion, as the = Information Request and Reply Type=3D15 and Type=3D16 have been obsolete = [RFC6918], so it could be used as the IOAM Capability echo request/reply = messages to acquire the enabled IOAM capabilities.
 [Yali] Do you think this is a way to request/reply IOAM = capabilities?
Thanks,
Yali
 

 


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Thread-Topic: [ippm] Questions about draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state Thread-Index: AQHWNJqYr5xvN3MSSUOBKieAvvQg5qi8zPbg Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 02:54:44 +0000 Message-ID: <1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F404E7B392@dggeml524-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <202005261657347762187@zte.com.cn> <1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F404E7ADD6@dggeml524-mbx.china.huawei.com> <202005271721263284249@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.203.65] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F404E7B392dggeml524mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Questions about draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 May 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"draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data.all@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.7.2.3) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.216, 18.0.687 definitions=2020-05-28_03:2020-05-28, 2020-05-28 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] draft-ippm-ioam-data-09 WGLC comments X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 16:39:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_ADBA56A1-5DE0-4FEB-9CC3-D4EA01173C26 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On May 28, 2020, at 6:06 AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) = wrote: >=20 > Hi Martin, > =20 > Thanks a lot for the detailed review. Please see inline (=E2=80=9C=E2=80= =A6FB=E2=80=9D). > =20 > From: Martin Duke >=20 > Sent: Mittwoch, 27. Mai 2020 01:24 > To: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data.all@ietf.org = ; ippm@ietf.org = > Subject: draft-ippm-ioam-data-09 WGLC comments > =20 > This document is almost ready. I have a few review comments and a = trail of nits. > =20 > Comments: > 1. It's RFC Ed policy to have no more than 5 authors, and you have 12. = Please=C2=A0follow these guidelines = to trim the = list down. > =E2=80=A6FB: The topic was brought up and discussed several times, = though there is no easy solution, given that IOAM had indeed many cooks = and at least I am not able to find appropriate reasons to prune the list = of authors to 5. I=E2=80=99m hoping for some guidance from the WG chairs = on how to handle the issue. We would like to see this changed to an editor model, in which one or = two authors are listed as editors, and there is an Authors section in = the text below to correctly attribute the contributors. No need to prune = anyone out or choose people to fit in the list of 5, but there=E2=80=99s = not a need to have the list at the top versus elsewhere in the text. > =20 > 2. Throughout the document, there are many lower-case 'must', = 'should', or 'may.' These should be reviewed, and most of them changed = to upper-case. Non-upper-case should generally use synonyms like 'might' = or 'could'. > =E2=80=A6FB: We=E2=80=99ll review all the lower-case must/should/may = statements once more and see whether there is a need to change to = uppercase. My current understanding (please correct me if I=E2=80=99m = wrong) was that per RFC 8174, the use of lower case must/may/should = would be ok =E2=80=93 we can of course see whether we can improve the = wording to make sure things are not misread.=20 It=E2=80=99s also my understanding that a lowercase must/should/etc is = technically fine, and not to be interpreted as MUST/SHOULD/etc. However, = it is a best practice to use other verbiage to avoid possible confusion. = Different reviewers have different opinions on this one =3D) Tommy (as co-chair) >=20 > 3. Section 4.2 says that transit nodes "will update at most one of = these Option Types". I think you mean "at least one of each of these = option types", at least if I'm reading 4.4 correctly. > =E2=80=A6FB: It is indeed =E2=80=9Cwill update at most one of these = Option Types=E2=80=9D - because for tracing it is either prealloc-update = OR incremental-update OR no-operation, i.e. a node will either do = nothing or update one of the Option-Types, but never both at the same = time.=20 >=20 > 4. Section 4.4.1 has many normative requirements for the options. What = should transit nodes do if these are not followed (e.g. remainingLen is = a garbage number)? Perhaps there should be an "error flag" in addition = to the Overflow flag? > =E2=80=A6FB: IMHO we can follow typical design principles here, i.e. = be loose/tolerant on what you accept, strict on what you send. We can = add a sentence that if a node receives a packet with IOAM data fields = that it cannot decode/understand, it would simply ignore the IOAM data = fields. Having a node figure out whether the IOAM data is really = corrupted or not might be hard to achieve (e.g. it could be some future = version that the node just does not understand). > =20 > 5. does the pre-allocated option have any sort of initial value the = encapsulation node should set all the trace option data to? Would this = allow the transit nodes to detect if there was a mistake in = RemainingLen?=20 > =E2=80=A6FB: If we go with the above assumption, that nodes that do = not understand the IOAM data fields would simply ignore them and leave = the packet untouched, we would not benefit from any pre-set value on = allocation. Depending on the implementation, pre-defined values may = impose an additional burden on the encap node. > =20 > Nits: > Sec 3.=20 > s/using for example packet/using, for example, packet > s/but do not have to share/but do not have to, share > s/data-plane/data planes > =20 > Sec 4.3 s/at average/on average > =20 > Sec 4.4=20 > s/hardware and software implementations IOAM/hardware and software = implementations, IOAM > s/data.The/data. The > s/devices which either/devices with either > =20 > Sec 4.4.1 > suggest the sentence > 'This bit is set by the network element if there are not enough octets = left to > record node data, no field is added and the overflow "O-bit" > must be set to "1" in the IOAM-Trace-Option header.' > be rewritten as > 'If there are not enought octets left to record node data, the network = element MUST NOT add a field and MUST set the overflow "O-bit" to "0" in = the IOAM-Trace-Option header.' > =20 > s/When set indicates/When set, indicates [multiple times in this = section] > =20 > Sec 4.4.2 > This section could use some subheaders for each node data field > =20 > s/hence recommend/and hence RECOMMEND > s/standard unit/standard units > =20 > Sec 4.5 > Please add a reference for SSSS > =20 > Sec 5.3 > s/run Linux/run the Linux > =20 > Sec 7.8 > RFC 8126 says you are supposed to provide guidelines for the expert = reviewer. > =20 > =E2=80=A6FB: Thanks for catching all those nits! Greatly appreciated. > =20 > Cheers, Frank > =20 > -- Martin --Apple-Mail=_ADBA56A1-5DE0-4FEB-9CC3-D4EA01173C26 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On May 28, 2020, at 6:06 AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) = <fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote:

Hi = Martin,
 
Thanks a lot for the detailed review. Please see inline = (=E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6FB=E2=80=9D).
 
From: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com> 
Sent: Mittwoch, 27. Mai 2020 = 01:24
To: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data.all@ietf.org; ippm@ietf.org
Subject: draft-ippm-ioam-data-09 = WGLC comments
 
This document is almost ready. I have a = few review comments and a trail of nits.
 
Comments:
1. It's RFC Ed policy to have no more = than 5 authors, and you have 12. Please follow these = guidelines to trim = the list down.
=E2=80=A6FB: The topic was brought up and discussed several = times, though there is no easy solution, given that IOAM had indeed many = cooks and at least I am not able to find appropriate reasons to prune = the list of authors to 5. I=E2=80=99m hoping for some guidance from the = WG chairs on how to handle the = issue.

We would like to see this changed to an editor = model, in which one or two authors are listed as editors, and there is = an Authors section in the text below to correctly attribute the = contributors. No need to prune anyone out or choose people to fit in the = list of 5, but there=E2=80=99s not a need to have the list at the top = versus elsewhere in the text.

 
2. Throughout the document, there are = many lower-case 'must', 'should', or 'may.' These should be reviewed, = and most of them changed to upper-case. Non-upper-case should generally = use synonyms like 'might' or 'could'.
=E2=80=A6FB: We=E2=80=99ll review all = the lower-case must/should/may statements once more and see whether = there is a need to change to uppercase. My current understanding (please = correct me if I=E2=80=99m wrong) was that per RFC 8174, the use of lower = case must/may/should would be ok =E2=80=93 we can of course see whether = we can improve the wording to make sure things are not misread. 

It=E2=80=99s also my understanding that a = lowercase must/should/etc is technically fine, and not to be interpreted = as MUST/SHOULD/etc. However, it is a best practice to use other verbiage = to avoid possible confusion. Different reviewers have different opinions = on this one =3D)

Tommy (as = co-chair)


3. Section 4.2 says that transit nodes = "will update at most one of these Option Types". I think you mean "at = least one of each of these option types", at least if I'm reading 4.4 = correctly.
=E2=80=A6FB: It is indeed =E2=80=9Cwill update = at most one of these Option Types=E2=80=9D - because for tracing it is = either prealloc-update OR incremental-update OR no-operation, i.e. a = node will either do nothing or update one of the Option-Types, but never = both at the same time. 

4. Section 4.4.1 has many normative = requirements for the options. What should transit nodes do if these are = not followed (e.g. remainingLen is a garbage number)? Perhaps there = should be an "error flag" in addition to the Overflow flag?
=E2=80=A6FB= : IMHO we can follow typical design principles here, i.e. be = loose/tolerant on what you accept, strict on what you send. We can add a = sentence that if a node receives a packet with IOAM data fields that it = cannot decode/understand, it would simply ignore the IOAM data fields. = Having a node figure out whether the IOAM data is really corrupted or = not might be hard to achieve (e.g. it could be some future version that = the node just does not understand).
 
5. does the pre-allocated option have any sort of initial = value the encapsulation node should set all the trace option data to? = Would this allow the transit nodes to detect if there was a mistake in = RemainingLen? 
=E2=80= =A6FB: If we go with the above assumption, that nodes that do not = understand the IOAM data fields would simply ignore them and leave the = packet untouched, we would not benefit from any pre-set value on = allocation. Depending on the implementation, pre-defined values may = impose an additional burden on the encap node.
 
Nits:
Sec 3. 
s/using for example packet/using, for example, packet
s/but do not have to share/but do not have to, share
s/data-plane/data planes
 
Sec 4.3 s/at average/on average
 
Sec 4.4 
s/hardware and software implementations IOAM/hardware and = software implementations, IOAM
s/data.The/data. The
s/devices which either/devices with either
 
Sec 4.4.1
suggest the sentence
'This bit is set by the = network element if there are not enough octets left to
         record node data, no field = is added and the overflow "O-bit"
      =    must be set to "1" in the IOAM-Trace-Option header.'
be rewritten as
'If there are not enought = octets left to record node data, the network element MUST NOT add a = field and MUST set the overflow "O-bit" to "0" in the IOAM-Trace-Option = header.'
 
s/When set indicates/When set, indicates [multiple times in = this section]
 
Sec 4.4.2
This section could use some subheaders = for each node data field
 
s/hence recommend/and hence RECOMMEND
s/standard unit/standard units
 
Sec 4.5
Please add a reference for SSSS
 
Sec 5.3
s/run Linux/run the Linux
 
Sec 7.8
RFC 8126 says you are supposed to = provide guidelines for the expert reviewer.
 
=E2=80=A6FB= : Thanks for catching all those nits! Greatly appreciated.
 
Cheers, = Frank
 
-- = Martin

= --Apple-Mail=_ADBA56A1-5DE0-4FEB-9CC3-D4EA01173C26-- From nobody Thu May 28 09:43:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 069663A0EE7; Thu, 28 May 2020 09:43:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nAWMRD-oNVUF; Thu, 28 May 2020 09:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com [17.171.2.60]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 477F43A0D19; Thu, 28 May 2020 09:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 04SGdi0f062661; Thu, 28 May 2020 09:43:03 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=from : content-type : mime-version : subject : date : references : to : in-reply-to : message-id; s=20180706; bh=5sG+hVN408/ko4uqAcII0p78NgGpx8+oDeTpvOYDUYY=; b=k0ZRhOiPuVehUguodmjMeb7n8cSG0WK3vpbqhrk+bidWM8J/lec8RJrMzqpsN67qSGS7 Htf8B1euwt9wUtesJPCYLs+HJDERJAG+Q8zgxIVyvtc3ZaRblGeb+DZd1hVM1UCtK7yy XE9/Np/4kwZu9DY00LIrhfwBfTDbVIfRAZzpjRwWsSjZIYCnvnXjonicLAW5Oye5eylZ mVGIooR7tBFjWlbI2apdbj2FopP/J1fwkxuWUoixFFWT6Yahj1i11yxIx/EKYLD//OKz afLTs87frfgliLwEq4qJ5zqQnSbJS1vcl7NugaTC71B66NBlhOCVHwVJ6xQthVLCbAW2 ow== Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp04.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp04.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.152]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com with ESMTP id 3172g3ut85-10 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 28 May 2020 09:43:03 -0700 Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.14]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp04.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.5.20200312 64bit (built Mar 12 2020)) with ESMTPS id <0QB100QTNVRRE990@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp04.rno.apple.com>; Thu, 28 May 2020 09:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from process_milters-daemon.rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.5.20200312 64bit (built Mar 12 2020)) id <0QB100V00VMJKS00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com>; Thu, 28 May 2020 09:43:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: 0a055ea1a755d1f56c7c402a95c1636c X-Va-E-CD: fd8e321e3ee53c920d9aa37ad5633377 X-Va-R-CD: 6633d5fcba5362c007be677c528ae6c5 X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: aab316f2-bff0-48bd-9b0c-105349fd01d9 X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: 0a055ea1a755d1f56c7c402a95c1636c X-V-E-CD: fd8e321e3ee53c920d9aa37ad5633377 X-V-R-CD: 6633d5fcba5362c007be677c528ae6c5 X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: 14cf1ca2-7829-47ac-afbe-bd918e3a67b5 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.216, 18.0.687 definitions=2020-05-28_03:2020-05-28, 2020-05-28 signatures=0 Received: from [17.232.179.231] (unknown [17.232.179.231]) by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.5.20200312 64bit (built Mar 12 2020)) with ESMTPSA id <0QB100VSUVRP7W00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com>; Thu, 28 May 2020 09:43:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Tommy Pauly Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E6FBC009-8D23-416D-ADFC-8FEF93F1F671" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.7.2.3\)) Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 09:43:01 -0700 References: To: Tommy Pauly , IETF IPPM WG In-reply-to: Message-id: <77DAFD57-5BA9-422B-BA46-5F9C81D0890D@apple.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.7.2.3) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.216, 18.0.687 definitions=2020-05-28_03:2020-05-28, 2020-05-28 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Second WGLC for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 16:43:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E6FBC009-8D23-416D-ADFC-8FEF93F1F671 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Our WGLC call for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data is now concluded! Thanks = everyone. I=E2=80=99ve marked the document as having WG consensus, and needing a = revised I-D (to incorporate Martin=E2=80=99s comments). Once that is = ready and we have the shepherd write-up, we=E2=80=99ll submit this to = the IESG. As a reminder, we are still in the WGLC for = draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv. Please review and comment if you have = not already! Thanks, Tommy > On May 14, 2020, at 10:16 AM, Tommy Pauly = wrote: >=20 > Hi IPPM, >=20 > At our virtual interim meeting, we decided to put = draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data through a second last call, based on the new = revisions, in mid-May. This email starts a two-week WGLC for this draft. >=20 > The latest version can be found here: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-09 = >=20 > This last call will end on Thursday, May 28. Please reply to = ippm@ietf.org with your reviews and comments. >=20 > Thanks, > Tommy & Ian > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --Apple-Mail=_E6FBC009-8D23-416D-ADFC-8FEF93F1F671 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Our = WGLC call for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data is now concluded! Thanks = everyone.

I=E2=80=99ve= marked the document as having WG consensus, and needing a revised I-D = (to incorporate Martin=E2=80=99s comments). Once that is ready and we = have the shepherd write-up, we=E2=80=99ll submit this to the = IESG.

As a = reminder, we are still in the WGLC for draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv. = Please review and comment if you have not already!

Thanks,
Tommy

On May 14, 2020, at 10:16 AM, = Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Hi IPPM,

At our virtual interim = meeting, we decided to put draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data through a = second last call, based on the new revisions, in mid-May. This email = starts a two-week WGLC for this draft.

The latest version can be found = here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-09

This last call = will end on Thursday, May 28. Please reply to ippm@ietf.org with your = reviews and comments.

Thanks,
Tommy & = Ian
_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

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Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] =?utf-8?q?Second_WGLC_for_draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data?= X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 May 2020 07:42:05 -0000 --=====_001_next===== Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="=====_002_next=====" --=====_002_next===== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====_003_next=====" --=====_003_next===== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgRnJhbmssDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQpQbGVhc2Ugc2VlIG15IGlubGluZSByZXNwb25zZSB3aXRo IDxYTTI+Lg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQpCZXN0IFJlZ2FyZHMsDQoNCg0KWGlhbyBNaW4NCg0KDQoN CuWOn+Wni+mCruS7tg0KDQoNCg0K5Y+R5Lu25Lq677yaRnJhbmtCcm9ja25lcnMoZmJyb2NrbmUp IDxmYnJvY2tuZUBjaXNjby5jb20+DQrmlLbku7bkurrvvJrogpbmlY8xMDA5MzU3MDsNCuaKhOmA geS6uu+8mmlwcG1AaWV0Zi5vcmcgPGlwcG1AaWV0Zi5vcmc+O3RwYXVseT00MGFwcGxlLmNvbUBk 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group. Please verify the document's state at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-route/ From nobody Sat May 30 15:35:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A4203A0B38 for ; Sat, 30 May 2020 15:35:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=neutral reason="invalid (public key: invalid data)" header.d=barefootnetworks.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cXugZLZVVwbZ for ; Sat, 30 May 2020 15:35:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x536.google.com (mail-ed1-x536.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::536]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7783D3A0B35 for ; Sat, 30 May 2020 15:35:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x536.google.com with SMTP id c35so4479799edf.5 for ; Sat, 30 May 2020 15:35:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=barefootnetworks.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=T9H4vMTDBHbjgTX+sCjM1QilFE7O64DRRKhcX3mJ2wg=; b=XiggfQpiESQCvvvdpAKLYmXb2spKl8A1bGph/p/u/LQCYFq8hksLCE6a/TXoBCrgaP E7gt2zfgP3J7eZUPULZfq1JgNp9+4SrM/eUTP9pJzj4BbtuslwGnSRr6vtixwMxBz5yG Fc5v59MrqystRdsdUpgaXaATLvFGrW/cqMDVc= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=T9H4vMTDBHbjgTX+sCjM1QilFE7O64DRRKhcX3mJ2wg=; b=dW0loEE4qMTJMZltTb/E1k0BgDydsK1PEiyU7rrpyEhX8Gtw9oMyhn8pp+bu/vByCS iJtVloW78j6GtY9cT8tqxNpfx8KmBlfqtXr186LVK0mPglZ8nSlfl6I7/LUXQ2gH4uEX Tk6FSEXu4AB6PZjIuYTzUdtvDaQN19eZxjDynxdb/aLeYfeWaMPn/fB/C0z23sbsZp4O DaNZns8hQc3ImxcvR5qCMW4EY7PAZlYuhs9OQ/rTiKCEIk5qf4T1Lj8Iy9hqJxSHzAkl U/GhZO11H9V1Ei/AKMNGz5za97tu5U7YjtC13IXoVnijw/p5y+ZCihTAtnxxNAPY1M7N u/mQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533hk8fUMczs70zGPLj/dVbSEv9hwsei6QRHegpOaueSWfW40YQV SoSZQ00Rxz8efp2gIhWEKzVFnlO/AAnBga0fgMYt+Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz3J0snFFG30DcoWvwAdE1Kd2PPb+KraiNFzq3T1GsK7bHZ/2U/TM3F//s52fM8DnT8OdYTb5FOPQj+QTEBLyY= X-Received: by 2002:a50:f106:: with SMTP id w6mr8624329edl.131.1590878099833; Sat, 30 May 2020 15:34:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202005301541296990515@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: <202005301541296990515@zte.com.cn> From: Mickey Spiegel Date: Sat, 30 May 2020 15:34:51 -0700 Message-ID: To: xiao.min2@zte.com.cn Cc: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , Tommy Pauly , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000059bc205a6e52ce6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Second WGLC for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 May 2020 22:35:05 -0000 --000000000000059bc205a6e52ce6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Frank and Xiao Min, Please see comments inline with [MS]. On Sat, May 30, 2020 at 12:42 AM wrote: > Hi Frank, > > > Please see my inline response with . > > > Best Regards, > > Xiao Min > =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6 > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*FrankBrockners(fbrockne) > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*=E8=82=96=E6=95=8F10093570; > *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*ippm@ietf.org ;tpaul= y=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org > ; > *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B405=E6=9C=8829=E6=97=A5 19:00 > *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A**RE: Re:[ippm] Second WGLC for draft-ietf-= ippm-ioam-data* > > Hi Xiao Min, > > > > There have been quite a few proposals for additional data fields for IOAM > tracing, see e.g.https://github.com/inband-oam/ietf/issues/154 > > What we agreed in the past IPPM meetings was that we=E2=80=99d focus on f= inalizing > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data so that we have a stable foundation that we can > build upon. The definition of new fields is to be covered by new drafts. > > I understand. It's reasonable, and by the way, I support its > publication. > > > > On your case for a second timestamp: This has been discussed in the past, > and so far the consensus was that a timestamp field and a transit-delay > field cover things quite flexibly, given that you can derive associated > times with simple operations (e.g. if timestamp covers packet-egress time > and you also capture transit-delay, you could easily calculate > packet-ingress time). > > I understand your argument and it's acceptable to me, nevertheless, > the current text in section 4.4.2 doesn't reflect your statement that > timestamp can cover packet-egress time. > > In section 4.4.2, it says: > > timestamp seconds: 4-octet unsigned integer. Absolute timestamp in > seconds that specifies the time at which the packet was received > by the node. > > timestamp subseconds: 4-octet unsigned integer. Absolute timestamp > in subseconds that specifies the time at which the packet was > received by the node. > > Could you please direct me to the words in section 4.4.2 that say the > timestamp can cover packet-egress time? > [MS] In an earlier message, Frank wrote: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data already includes an option to timestamp packets > (see e.g. sections 4.4.2 and 4.6 in draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-09) which y= ou > can use exactly the same way as you propose below, i.e. you can use the > timestamp field for the time, at which the packet was transmitted by the > node. What draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data asks you to do is to properly docume= nt > when you timestamp the packet. [MS] This is not correct. As Xiao Min pointed out, in the IOAM Trace, the timestamp definition specifies "the time at which the packet was received by the node". [MS] In the IOAM Edge-to-Edge option, the timestamp behaves as described in Frank's comment above, varying in different implementations. [MS] Even with the timestamp fixed as an ingress timestamp, I agree with Frank's main point. An egress timestamp can be derived from the ingress timestamp plus the transit delay. Mickey > > > > Cheers, Frank > > > > *From:* xiao.min2@zte.com.cn > *Sent:* Freitag, 29. Mai 2020 11:00 > *To:* Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > *Cc:* ippm@ietf.org; tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org > *Subject:* Re:[ippm] Second WGLC for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data > > > > Hi Frank, > > > > Many thanks for your reply to my comment. > > Please see my inline response with . > > > > Best Regards, > > Xiao Min > > =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6 > > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*FrankBrockners(fbrockne) > > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*=E8=82=96=E6=95=8F10093570;ippm@iet= f.org ;tpauly=3D > 40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org ; > > *=E6=97=A5**=E6=9C=9F**=EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B405=E6=9C=8829=E6=97=A5 16:0= 5 > > *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98**=EF=BC=9A**RE: [ippm] Second WGLC for draft-ietf-i= ppm-ioam-data* > > Hi Xiao Min, > > > > my understanding is that there are devices which can calculate transit > delay, which is why the field was introduced quite a while ago. > > OK, I see, then it's very reasonable to reserve this field of transi= t > delay. > > > > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data already includes an option to timestamp packets > (see e.g. sections 4.4.2 and 4.6 in draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-09) which y= ou > can use exactly the same way as you propose below, i.e. you can use the > timestamp field for the time, at which the packet was transmitted by the > node. What draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data asks you to do is to properly docume= nt > when you timestamp the packet. > > My suggestion might not be clear enough. Actually I want to have two > timestamps carried in the hop-by-hop trace option data, one timestamp for > the receiving time and another timestamp for the transmitting time, then > after the IOAM Data is exported to the collecter, the collecter can use t= he > two timestamps to calculate the transit delay of each IOAM transit node. = Do > you see it possible to add one more timestamp as IOAM node data field int= o > section 4.4.2? > > > > Cheers, Frank > > > > *From:* ippm *On Behalf Of *xiao.min2@zte.com.cn > *Sent:* Freitag, 15. Mai 2020 09:51 > *To:* ippm@ietf.org; tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [ippm] Second WGLC for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data > > > > Hi all, > > > > I have a comment on this draft. > > I was told by the implementers of my company that it's difficult to add > accurate transit delay into the trace option data. The reason is that in > order to calculate transit delay, the node firstly needs to obtain the ti= me > at which the packet is transmitted by the node, which is obtained at PHY > layer, otherwise, the node can't do any calculation after the time is > obtained. > > If the above issue is common across different implementations, I suggest > to substitute the "transit delay" with '"timestamp" of the time at which > the packet is transmitted by the node. > > > > Best Regards, > > Xiao Min > > =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6 > > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*TommyPauly > > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*IETF IPPM WG ; > > *=E6=97=A5=E6=9C=9F=EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B405=E6=9C=8815=E6=97=A5 01:16 > > *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98**=EF=BC=9A**[ippm] Second WGLC for draft-ietf-ippm-= ioam-data* > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > Hi IPPM, > > > > At our virtual interim meeting, we decided to > put draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data through a second last call, based on the ne= w > revisions, in mid-May. This email starts a two-week WGLC for this draft. > > > > The latest version can be found here: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-09 > > > > This last call will end on *Thursday, May 28*. Please reply to > ippm@ietf.org with your reviews and comments. > > > > Thanks, > > Tommy & Ian > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > --000000000000059bc205a6e52ce6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Frank and Xiao Min,

Please s= ee comments inline with [MS].

On Sat, May 30, 2020 at 12:42 AM <xiao.min2@zte.com.cn> wrote:
=

Hi Frank,


Pleas= e see my inline response with <XM2>.


= Best Regards,

Xiao Min

=
=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA= =EF=BC=9AFrankBrockners(fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com>
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A=E8=82=96=E6=95=8F10093570;
=E6=8A=84= =E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9Aippm@ietf.org <ippm@ietf.org>;tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dma= rc.ietf.org>;
=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A= 2020=E5=B9=B405=E6=9C=8829=E6=97=A5 19:00
<= strong>=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9ARE: Re:[ippm] Se= cond WGLC for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data

Hi Xiao Min,

=C2=A0

There have been quit= e a few proposals for additional data fields for IOAM tracing, see e.g.htt= ps://github.com/inband-oam/ietf/issues/154

What we agreed in the past IPPM meetings was that we=E2=80=99d = focus on finalizing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data so that we have a stable foun= dation that we can build upon. The definition of new fields is to be covere= d by new drafts.

<XM2> I unde= rstand. It's reasonable, and by the way, I support its publication.

=

=C2=A0

On yo= ur case for a second timestamp: This has been discussed in the past, and so= far the consensus was that a timestamp field and a transit-delay field cov= er things quite flexibly, given that you can derive associated times with s= imple operations (e.g. if timestamp covers packet-egress time and you also captu= re transit-delay, you could easily calculate packet-ingress time).

<XM2> I understand your argument and = it's acceptable to me, nevertheless, the current text in section 4.4.2 = doesn't reflect your statement that timestamp can cover packet-egress t= ime.

In section 4.4.2, it says:

   timest=
amp seconds:  4-octet unsigned integer.  Absolute timestamp in
      seconds that specifies the time at which the packet was received
      by the node.

   ti=
mestamp subseconds:  4-octet unsigned integer.  Absolute timestamp
      in subseconds that specifies the time at which the packet was
      received by the node.

Could you please di= rect me to the words in section 4.4.2 that say the timestamp can cover pack= et-egress time?=C2=A0

<= /div>

[MS] In an earlier message, Frank wro= te:

draft-i= etf-ippm-ioam-data already includes an option to timestamp packets (see e.g= . sections 4.4.2 and 4.6 in draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-09) which you can use= exactly the same way as you propose below, i.e. you can use the timestamp = field for the time, at which the packet was transmitted by the node. What draft-= ietf-ippm-ioam-data asks you to do is to properly document when you timesta= mp the packet.

[MS] This is not correct. As= Xiao Min pointed out, in the IOAM Trace, the timestamp definition specifie= s "the time at which the packet was received by the node".
<= div>
[MS] In the IOAM Edge-to-Edge option, the timestamp beha= ves as described in Frank's comment above, varying in different impleme= ntations.

[MS] Even with the time= stamp fixed as an ingress timestamp, I agree with Frank's main point. A= n egress timestamp can be derived from the ingress timestamp plus the trans= it delay.

Mickey
=C2=A0


=


Cheers, Frank

= =C2=A0

From: x= iao.min2@zte.com.cn <xiao.min2@zte.com.cn>
Sent: Freitag= , 29. Mai 2020 11:00
To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <= ;fbrockne@cisco.com= >
Cc: ippm@ietf.org; tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org
Subject= : Re:[ippm] Second WGLC for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data

=C2=A0

Hi Frank,=

=C2=A0

Many thanks for your reply to my comment.

Please see my inline response with <XM>.

<= /u>=C2=A0

Best Regards,

Xiao Min<= /p>

=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B= =E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A= FrankBrockners(fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com>

=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A=E8=82=96=E6=95= =8F10093570;ippm@ietf.org <ippm@ietf.org&g= t;;tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org&g= t;;

=E6=97=A5=E6=9C=9F=EF=BC=9A2020=E5=B9=B405=E6=9C=8829=E6=97=A5<= /span> 16:05

=E4=B8=BB=E9= =A2=98=EF=BC=9ARE: [ippm] Second WGLC for draft-= ietf-ippm-ioam-data

=

Hi Xiao Min,

=C2=A0

my understanding is that th= ere are devices which can calculate transit delay, which is why the field w= as introduced quite a while ago.

&l= t;XM> OK, I see, then it's very reasonable to reserve this field of = transit delay.

=C2=A0=

draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data already includes an op= tion to timestamp packets (see e.g. sections 4.4.2 and 4.6 in draft-ietf-ip= pm-ioam-data-09) which you can use exactly the same way as you propose belo= w, i.e. you can use the timestamp field for the time, at which the packet was transmitted by the node. What draft-= ietf-ippm-ioam-data asks you to do is to properly document when you timesta= mp the packet.

<XM> My sugges= tion might not be clear enough. Actually I want to have two timestamps carr= ied in the hop-by-hop trace option data, one timestamp for the receiving ti= me and another timestamp for the transmitting time, then after the IOAM Data is exported to the collecter, the collecter can use the two timestamp= s to calculate the transit delay of each IOAM transit node. Do you see it p= ossible to add one more timestamp as IOAM node data field into section 4.4.= 2?

=C2=A0

Cheers, Frank

=C2=A0=

From: ippm= <ippm-bounce= s@ietf.org>On= Behalf Of xiao.min2@zte.com.cn
Sent: Freitag, 15. Mai 2020 09:51
To: ippm@ietf.org; tpauly=3D= 40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ippm] Second WGLC for draft-iet= f-ippm-ioam-data

=C2=A0=

Hi all,

=C2=A0

I have a comment on= this draft.

I was told by the implementers of my company tha= t it's difficult to add accurate transit delay into the trace option da= ta. The reason is that in order to calculate transit delay, the node firstl= y needs to obtain the time at which the packet is transmitted by the node, w= hich is obtained at PHY layer, otherwise, the node can't do any calcula= tion after the time is obtained.

If the above issue is common= across different implementations, I suggest to substitute the "transi= t delay" with '"timestamp" of the time at which the pack= et is transmitted by the node.

=C2=A0

Best Rega= rds,

Xiao Min

=E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9ATommyPauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.= org>

=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9AIETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>;=

=E6=97=A5=E6=9C=9F=EF=BC=9A2020=E5=B9=B405=E6=9C=8815=E6=97=A5 01:16

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A[ippm] Second WGLC for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data

_____________________________= __________________
ippm=C2=A0mailing=C2=A0list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailma= n/listinfo/ippm

Hi IPPM,

=C2=A0

At our virtual interim= meeting, we decided to put=C2=A0draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data through a second= last call, based on the new revisions, in mid-May. This email starts a two= -week WGLC for this draft.

= =C2=A0

The latest version can = be found here:=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm= -ioam-data-09

=C2=A0

This last call will end on Thursday, May 28. Please reply toip= pm@ietf.org with your reviews and comments.

=C2=A0

Than= ks,

Tommy & Ian

=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0<= /u>


_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
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Thread-Index: AQHWKhNxDpX13BvXYEe2+zkkc7UNH6i+DQCAgARY5dA= Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 15:27:40 +0000 Message-ID: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF0108A5E26F@njmtexg5.research.att.com> References: <77DAFD57-5BA9-422B-BA46-5F9C81D0890D@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <77DAFD57-5BA9-422B-BA46-5F9C81D0890D@apple.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [69.141.203.172] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF0108A5E26Fnjmtexg5resea_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.216, 18.0.687 definitions=2020-05-31_07:2020-05-28, 2020-05-31 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 priorityscore=1501 phishscore=0 cotscore=-2147483648 bulkscore=0 clxscore=1011 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2004280000 definitions=main-2005310123 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Second WGLC for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 15:27:58 -0000 --_000_4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF0108A5E26Fnjmtexg5resea_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgVG9tbXkgYW5kIERyYWZ0IGlvYW0tZGF0YSBBdXRob3JzLA0KDQpBZnRlciBjb21wbGV0aW5n IG9uZSBwYXNzIHRocm91Z2ggdGhlIG1lbW8gaW4gdGhlIHJvbGUgb2YgRG9jIFNoZXBoZXJkLA0K SSBlbmRlZC11cCB3aXRoIGEgZmV3IGNvbW1lbnRzIHRoYXQgYXJlIG1vcmUgbGlrZSBXR0xDIGNv bW1lbnRzIHRoYW4NCnRob3NlIG9mIHRoZSBzaGVwaGVyZC4gIFNpbmNlIHdlIGFyZSBvbmx5IGEg ZmV3IGRheXMgb3ZlciBXR0xDIGNsb3N1cmUsDQpJIGhhdmUgdXBsb2FkZWQgdGhlIHByZWxpbWlu 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