From nobody Sun Nov 1 04:30:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietf.org Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2AEF3A0115; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 04:30:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: ippm@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.21.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ippm@ietf.org Message-ID: <160423381781.24532.14323681754548794310@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2020 04:30:17 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options-04.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2020 12:30:18 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF. Title : In-situ OAM IPv6 Options Authors : Shwetha Bhandari Frank Brockners Carlos Pignataro Hannes Gredler John Leddy Stephen Youell Tal Mizrahi Aviv Kfir Barak Gafni Petr Lapukhov Mickey Spiegel Suresh Krishnan Rajiv Asati Mark Smith Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options-04.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2020-11-01 Abstract: In-situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (IOAM) records operational and telemetry information in the packet while the packet traverses a path between two points in the network. This document outlines how IOAM data fields are encapsulated in IPv6. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options-04 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Nov 1 05:20:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietf.org Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA4AE3A08A9; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 05:20:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: ippm@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.21.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ippm@ietf.org Message-ID: <160423680878.20691.17204264976363771164@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2020 05:20:08 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export-02.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2020 13:20:09 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF. Title : In-situ OAM Direct Exporting Authors : Haoyu Song Barak Gafni Tianran Zhou Zhenbin Li Frank Brockners Shwetha Bhandari Ramesh Sivakolundu Tal Mizrahi Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export-02.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2020-11-01 Abstract: In-situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (IOAM) is used for recording and collecting operational and telemetry information. Specifically, IOAM allows telemetry data to be pushed into data packets while they traverse the network. This document introduces a new IOAM option type called the Direct Export (DEX) option, which is used as a trigger for IOAM data to be directly exported without being pushed into in-flight data packets. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export-02 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Nov 1 05:30:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CD563A08C0 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 05:30:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B9RkhtUFAosF for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 05:30:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42c.google.com (mail-wr1-x42c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C62363A08B2 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 05:30:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42c.google.com with SMTP id g12so11456492wrp.10 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 05:30:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=AR5bKqGTDpoYkdx7bvLT2Wgows/h8C+aNYFXFH5wIgs=; b=VkR4KYnN43CMZQ/cvABgym5mzqT0Tu6A8kKF2CxUVnf847lBljZDSy3AxmBZVFAdBl ZTwKxcFp5EKYpWtDezeizdjd/nbJck06UduoX2twOztCjtpEyQ75A8OCfBBtEABtpSl/ t8yMWJIKERR3iCEcNomNljo/AW5VjOlon2pkoI0SzVPLoXinxyWneSFSrbvc3yfQn7OW kDZ0x2O/xqBrUUJD1HVZv7sUjtzG16FlnCA6nerVBWmhKA8ePulhlXuwcnb3drtXf16H 6LoFd7HbLYwBq49IOX6+i+YFMf7nehyiINYnfgWU6RndW8XLGsNVXtUBG2ZyGJYoxTed 3f2w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=AR5bKqGTDpoYkdx7bvLT2Wgows/h8C+aNYFXFH5wIgs=; b=nxdABBBwpstV8YjRWP/Z5k+tY8pCxFhm5IEeLbCKMPbaTVs7VlMykbNQqhu6aRJWpc URnnM/d45cA1hsJt5t4rwsM2SsXnn7bJvWvsZHtUg6MiVgt9MfS6AsU9aTQzxBzEREL7 3PPahM3egH9dvKSAohBj2Au5X1Y+FU+tIC/kOVWSFO4eGe/8wCquvvCCTe1LkaNfhk4O umr3MGHjwy0c3XzAt1s5cHUdHX4Y40dWn0GD3spVtiCzFN9WZjh7T2uYhyYNrbBO3K9p AjrBy/dKqW3mX/5Ldobxu2P9UJB0nPl7XYLCGwKq3BPo2sCh0SioaqEymbfErfK8QD4w Jw5Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533unVZVf9SOC5d+g7i/jw6Cq3Ky60jB2Vp47dyXFKftm11gjxnd BLy3gerKamKarAidOVZxU79XLbvV8J3mdyzEjJTV/Alwrfw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzSnYiqeGG4GxkH1kdfSOUNCv+KEJOE5n5Hi2eoDNO1xCZx7WiH+SN0LuhPNYmFQTqgr8TZggKeWakDkiNP+VI= X-Received: by 2002:adf:c58f:: with SMTP id m15mr15038870wrg.144.1604237410737; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 05:30:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160423680899.20691.4796912791468952814@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <160423680899.20691.4796912791468952814@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Tal Mizrahi Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 15:29:58 +0200 Message-ID: To: IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export-02.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2020 13:30:17 -0000 Hi, Following the recent discussion about the DEX draft we have posted this updated version, which will be a base for the discussion in IETF 109. Cheers, Tal. ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Date: Sun, Nov 1, 2020 at 3:20 PM Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export-02.txt To: Zhenbin Li , Frank Brockners , Tianran Zhou , Ramesh Sivakolundu , Barak Gafni , Haoyu Song , Tal Mizrahi , Shwetha Bhandari A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export-02.txt has been successfully submitted by Tal Mizrahi and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export Revision: 02 Title: In-situ OAM Direct Exporting Document date: 2020-11-01 Group: ippm Pages: 10 URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export-02.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export/ Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export-02 Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export-02 Abstract: In-situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (IOAM) is used for recording and collecting operational and telemetry information. Specifically, IOAM allows telemetry data to be pushed into data packets while they traverse the network. This document introduces a new IOAM option type called the Direct Export (DEX) option, which is used as a trigger for IOAM data to be directly exported without being pushed into in-flight data packets. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Sun Nov 1 06:15:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D95643A09D1 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 06:15:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jWa9Nx-PQX42 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 06:15:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta1.chinamobile.com (cmccmta1.chinamobile.com [221.176.66.79]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03ADC3A09CE for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2020 06:15:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from spf.mail.chinamobile.com (unknown[172.16.121.1]) by rmmx-syy-dmz-app04-12004 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee45f9ec239717-5fb33; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 22:12:09 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee45f9ec239717-5fb33 X-RM-TagInfo: emlType=0 X-RM-SPAM-FLAG: 00000000 Received: from cmcc (unknown[10.1.6.6]) by rmsmtp-syy-appsvr01-12001 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee15f9ec236cb1-ccd02; Sun, 01 Nov 2020 22:12:09 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee15f9ec236cb1-ccd02 Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 22:12:09 +0800 From: yanghongwei To: wangyali , ippm References: <1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F405050B14@dggeml524-mbx.china.huawei.com>, <2020103010321696113322@chinamobile.com>, <1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F405052123@dggeml524-mbx.china.huawei.com> X-Priority: 3 X-Has-Attach: no X-Mailer: Foxmail 7.2.18.95[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <202011012212083688804@chinamobile.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_001_NextPart082803101517_=----" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2020 14:15:54 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_001_NextPart082803101517_=---- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgWWFsaSwNCg0KVGhhbmsgeW91IGZvciB5b3VyIHJlcGx5LiBJIGFtIHdpbGxpbmcgdG8gd29y ayB3aXRoIHlvdSB0byBpbXByb3ZlIHRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQuDQpJbiBvcmRlciB0byBtZWFzdXJl IG1vcmUgbmV0d29yayBwYXJhbWV0ZXJzLCBzdWNoIGFzIGZvcndhcmRpbmcgcGF0aCwgYnVmZmVy IGRlcHRoLCBldGMuLCBtb3JlIG9yIG1vcmUgZmxleGlibGUgVExWcyBtYXkgYmUgZGVmaW5lZC4N Cg0KVGhhbmtzLA0KSG9uZ3dlaS4NCg0KDQoNCkhvbmd3ZWkgWWFuZw0KIA0KRnJvbTogd2FuZ3lh bGkNCkRhdGU6IDIwMjAtMTAtMzAgMTY6MjINClRvOiB5YW5naG9uZ3dlaTsgaXBwbQ0KU3ViamVj dDogUkU6IFtpcHBtXSBOZXcgVmVyc2lvbiBmb3IgZHJhZnQtd2FuZy1pcHBtLXN0YW1wLWhiaC1l eHRlbnNpb25zLTAxDQpIaSBIb25nd2VpLA0KIA0KVGhhbmtzIGZvciB5b3VyIHF1ZXN0aW9ucyBh 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Hi Yali,

Thank you for you= r reply. I am willing to work with you to improve this document.
In order to measure more network parameters, such as forwarding path, buf= fer depth, etc., more or more flexible TLVs may be defined.

Thanks,

<= /div>

Hongwei.

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Hongw= ei Yang

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=
From: wangyali
=
Date: 2020-10-30 16:22
Subj= ect: RE: [ippm] New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensi= ons-01
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Hi Hongwei,

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Thanks for your questions and = comments. Please see inline [Yali].

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From: yanghongwei [mailto:yanghongwei@chinamobile.com]=0A
=0AS= ent: Friday, October 30, 2020 10:32 AM
=0ATo: wangyali <w= angyali11@huawei.com>; ippm <ippm@ietf.org>
=0ASubject:= Re: [ippm] New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01

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Hi Yali,

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I think this is a useful solution. Hop-by-hop network measurement is ver= y necessary in many scenarios. 

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I have a f= ew questions.

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<= span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"=E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B= =85=E9=BB=91",sans-serif;color:black">1. Why is it combined with OAM = packets and how to deal with devices that do not support OAM?

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[Yali] Good question. In this draft, we propose tw= o kinds of way to measure and collect metrics per node or link. One kind o= f the way is taking advantage of IOAM-Trace-Type=0A or extending IPv6 Hop-= by-Hop Options header encoded in the STAMP test packets, which are examine= d and processed in Fast Path. Another way we proposed in this draft is tim= estamping and punting packet to control plane and recorded in Forward or B= ackward HbH=0A Delay TLVs.

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 =

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2. Latency, jitter, and p= acket loss are mentioned in the document, but link bandwidth utilization i= s also an important indicator. Can it also be implemented in this=0A = solution?

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[Yali] Yes. I agree with y= our vision. I have a suggestion of extending a Link Bandwidth Utilization = TLV in this draft. What do you think? I hope you would agree=0A to join in= the work on this draft. I'd be glad to welcome you as a co-author.

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Thanks and Best Regards,

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Hongwei.

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Hongwei Yang

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&nb= sp;

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From: wangyali

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Date: 2020-10-27 21:48

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To: ippm

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Subject: [ippm] New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01=

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Hello WG,

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 <= o:p>

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Draft about extensions= to STAMP enable hop-by-hop OAM data measurement and collection has been u= pdated, which was presented in IETF108. Questions and comments are=0A welc= ome.

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<= span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"=E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B= =85=E9=BB=91",sans-serif;color:black">Because the performance of inte= rmediate nodes and links that STAMP test packets traverse are invisible, t= o solve this problem, this draft extents optional TLVs to=0A STAMP and ins= erts IOAM Trace option data in the test packets or dispatches test packets= to the OAM process at OAM Endpoint.

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In= this case, the STAMP instance does not need to be configured at every int= ermediate node to measure the performance of intermediate nodes, which dec= reases the complexity=0A of OAM in large-scale networks.=

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What do you think?

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Be= st regards,

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Yali<= /o:p>

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-----Original Message-----

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<= span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"=E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B= =85=E9=BB=91",sans-serif;color:black">Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020= 9:03 PM

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To: wangyali = <wangyali11@huawei.com>; Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>

=0A=0A
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Subject: New Version Notification for draft-wang-ip= pm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01.txt

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 <= o:p>

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A new version of I-D, = draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01.txt

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has been successfully submitted by Yali Wang and post= ed to the IETF repository.

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Name: = ;          draft-wang-ippm-st= amp-hbh-extensions

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Revi= sion:       01

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Title:       &nbs= p;  Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol Extensions for Hop-by-= Hop OAM Data Collection

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Document date:  2020-10-27

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Group:          = Individual Submission

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P= ages:          10<= /span>

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Status:        =0A= =0Ahttps://dat= atracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions/=

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Abstract:

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   This document defines optional TLVs whic= h are carried in Simple Two-

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   way Active Measurement Protocol (STAMP) test packets to= enhance the

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 &nbs= p; STAMP base functions.  Such extensions to STAMP enable OAM data

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   measurement = and collection at every node and link along a STAMP test=

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   packet's delivery path.

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 <= /p>=0A

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Please note that it may take= a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized versio= n and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

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The IETF Secretariat

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____________________________= ___________________

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ipp= m mailing list

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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

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00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SG2APC01HT047 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2020 06:37:50 -0000 ------=_001_NextPart725185173231_=---- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RGVhciBBbGwsDQoNCkkndmUgcmVhZCB0aGUgZG9jcyBhbmQgc3VwcG9ydCB0aGUgYWRvcHRpb24g Zm9yIGJvdGggb2YgdGhlbSB3aXRoIHRoZSBmb2xsb3dpbmcgY29tbWVudHMuDQoNCkZvciBzZWN0 aW9uIDMuMiwgdGhlcmUgYXJlIG5vIFJlY2VpdmUgQ291bnRlciwgU2VuZGVyIENvdW50ZXIsIG5v ciBTZW5kZXIgU2VxdWVuY2UgTnVtYmVyIGRlZmluZWQgaGVyZS4gSSBiZWxpZXZlIHRoZSB0ZXh0 cyBkZXNjcmliZSB0aGVzZSBwYXJhbWV0ZXJzIHNob3VsZCBiZSBwdXQgaW4gc2VjdGlvbiA0LjEu 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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable body { line-height: 1.5; }blockquote { margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:= 0px; margin-left: 0.5em; }div.FoxDiv20201102142624656088 { word-wrap: brea= k-word; }body { font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85= =E9=BB=91; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: 1.5; }=0A=
Dear All,

I've read the docs and= support the adoption for both of them with the following comments.

For section 3.2, there are no Receive Counter, Sender= Sequence Number defined here. I believe the texts describe these parameter= s should be put in section 4.1.
I think it is bet= ter to expain how the counters and sequence numbers are used to do loss mea= surement. 
=0A=

Best Regards,
Zhenqiang Li
=0A=
li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com
=0A=
 
D= ate: 2020-10-31 02:34
Subject:&nbs= p;[ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-i= ppm-stamp-srpm
=0A=
Hello IPPM,

For the past few meetings, we=E2=80=99ve had updates on the work= in the SPRING WG that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents end= ed up making extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPP= M decided that it would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM e= xtension work in the IPPM WG.

As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption for=  draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm.
<= div class=3D"">
The documents are here:
<= br class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-s= rpm-00
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00<= /a>
=
The related SPRING documents are here:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srp= m-03
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-= 11

Please provide = your feedback on these documents, and state whether or not you believe the = IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Please provide yo= ur feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mon= day, November 16.

Best,
Tommy & Ian
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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tommy, As author I support adoption and thank for the call for adoption. Could you kindly repeat the call for adoption with the correctly set hyperl= ink (the one below links to https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhou-ippm-ioa= m-yang-08 - at least in my Email-application). Regards, R=FCdiger Von: ippm Im Auftrag von Tommy Pauly Gesendet: Freitag, 30. Oktober 2020 19:44 An: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Cc: IPPM Chairs Betreff: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring Hello IPPM, This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-geib-ippm-con= nectivity-monitoring. This document has been presented several times and di= scussed within the working group. The document can be found here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03 Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mon= day, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian --_000_LEJPR01MB1116D98EACD1DE738CAAA92A9C100LEJPR01MB1116DEUP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Tommy,

 

As author I support adoption and thank for the call = for adoption.

 

Could you kindly repeat the call for adoption with t= he correctly set hyperlink (the one below links to https:= //tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-08 - at least in my Ema= il-application).

 

Regards,

 

R=FCdiger

 

 

Von: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> Im Auftrag von Tommy Pauly
Gesendet: Freitag, 30. Oktober 2020 19:44
An: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>
Betreff: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-moni= toring

 

Hello IPPM,


This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-geib-ipp= m-connectivity-monitoring. This document has been presented several times a= nd discussed within the working group.

The document can be found here:

https:= //tools.ietf.org/html/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03

Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, o= n Monday, November 16.

Best,
Tommy & Ian

--_000_LEJPR01MB1116D98EACD1DE738CAAA92A9C100LEJPR01MB1116DEUP_-- From nobody Mon Nov 2 01:38:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83DA53A0D24; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 01:38:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3SQ0nQDMFkn0; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 01:38:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DCB33A0D1D; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 01:38:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml746-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 3E81CB3A77EFE7E512E8; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 09:38:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml709-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.40) by lhreml746-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.196) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 09:38:47 +0000 Received: from nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.157) by nkgeml709-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.40) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 17:38:45 +0800 Received: from nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.157]) by nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.157]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 17:38:45 +0800 From: Tianran Zhou To: Tommy Pauly , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" CC: IPPM Chairs Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state Thread-Index: AQHWru0HRpbdaPrsqUm8nNnHjmrzz6m0mUEw Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 09:38:45 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5E408E0E-862E-480B-88FD-890098340EBC@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <5E408E0E-862E-480B-88FD-890098340EBC@apple.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.128] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_c71c90f83c7a47c6baf527895d74676ehuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2020 09:38:52 -0000 --_000_c71c90f83c7a47c6baf527895d74676ehuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Chairs and the WG, I've read this revision and think it's good to move forward. My previous co= mments are all addressed. I support the adoption of this draft and would like to contribute. Cheers, Tianran From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2020 2:46 AM To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Cc: IPPM Chairs Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state Hello IPPM, This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-xiao-ippm-ioa= m-conf-state. This document has been presented several times and discussed = within the working group in the context of our overall IOAM work. The document can be found here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state-07 Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mon= day, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian --_000_c71c90f83c7a47c6baf527895d74676ehuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Chairs and the WG,

 

I’ve read this revision and thi= nk it’s good to move forward. My previous comments are all addressed.=

I support the adoption of this draft = and would like to contribute.

 

Cheers,

Tianran

 

From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf= .org] On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly
Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2020 2:46 AM
To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state

 

Hello IPPM,


This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-xiao-ipp= m-ioam-conf-state. This document has been presented several times and discu= ssed within the working group in the context of our overall IOAM work.

The document can be found here:

https:= //tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state-07

Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, o= n Monday, November 16.

Best,
Tommy & Ian

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Mon, 02 Nov 2020 06:16:55 -0800 (PST) From: Tommy Pauly Message-id: <6CAF4468-8AA6-43B7-A621-6116E473BFEC@apple.com> Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E915FC8B-A9EF-46BC-8849-2A2065222061" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.0.3.2.26\)) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2020 06:16:55 -0800 In-reply-to: <63A1B18E-A7F6-4F91-8503-F1FCE3CF945A@apple.com> Cc: "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" , IPPM Chairs To: Tommy Pauly References: <63A1B18E-A7F6-4F91-8503-F1FCE3CF945A@apple.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.0.3.2.26) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.312, 18.0.737 definitions=2020-11-02_07:2020-11-02, 2020-11-02 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2020 14:16:58 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E915FC8B-A9EF-46BC-8849-2A2065222061 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Oct 30, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Tommy Pauly = wrote: >=20 > Hello IPPM, >=20 > This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for = draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring. This document has been = presented several times and discussed within the working group. >=20 > The document can be found here: >=20 >=20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03 = (Corrected link) >=20 > Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or = not you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this = email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting = week, on Monday, November 16. >=20 > Best, > Tommy & Ian > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --Apple-Mail=_E915FC8B-A9EF-46BC-8849-2A2065222061 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On Oct 30, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Hello = IPPM,

This email starts a Working = Group call for adoption = for draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring. This document has been = presented several times and discussed within the working group.

The document can be found here:


https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monito= ring-03
(Corrected link)


Please provide your feedback on these document, and state = whether or not you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by = replying to this email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the = IETF 109 meeting week, on Monday, November = 16.

Best,
Tommy & = Ian
_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

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id 046DE3A1252 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 07:26:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml734-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id A59A3F546C0FBEA4EFB8 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 15:26:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from lhreml734-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.85) by lhreml734-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.85) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 15:26:51 +0000 Received: from DGGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.38) by lhreml734-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.85) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.1913.5 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 15:26:50 +0000 Received: from DGGEML524-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.10]) by DGGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::fca6:7568:4ee3:c776%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 23:26:47 +0800 From: wangyali To: yanghongwei , ippm Thread-Topic: RE: [ippm] New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01 Thread-Index: AQHWsFkMoGlDbGviNECH/C6Xeaq9bKm02saQ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 15:26:46 +0000 Message-ID: <1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F4050777A9@dggeml524-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F405050B14@dggeml524-mbx.china.huawei.com>, <2020103010321696113322@chinamobile.com>, <1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F405052123@dggeml524-mbx.china.huawei.com> <202011012212083688804@chinamobile.com> In-Reply-To: <202011012212083688804@chinamobile.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.48.69.32] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F4050777A9dggeml524mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBSRTogIE5ldyBWZXJzaW9uIGZvciBkcmFm?= =?utf-8?q?t-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01?= X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list 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--_000_SN6PR13MB233405171C4090503A0763D285100SN6PR13MB2334namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tommy and Ian, We would like a 10-minute slot at the IPPM session in IETF109 to discuss th= e following draft: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dunbar-ippm-5g-edge-compute-ip-layer= -metrics/ The draft describes the IP Layer metrics and methods to measure the Edge Co= mputing Servers running status and environment for IP networks to select th= e optimal Edge Computing server location in 5G Edge Computing (EC) environm= ent. This document also describes the method of incorporating those measure= ments with IP routing cost to come up with a more optimal criteria in selec= ting ANYCAST locations. The draft proposes methods to compute the Load Measurement Index at each l= ocation of the App Server, to derive Capacity Index of each location, and t= he Site preference. The draft also proposes an algorithm for ingress node t= o choose the ANYCAST location based on Load Measurement, The Capacity Index= , the site preference Index and network delay. We greatly appreciate your feedback on those proposed IP Layer metrics. A little bit background: In 5G Edge Computing environment, one Application can have multiple Applica= tion Servers hosted in different Edge Computing data centers that are close= in proximity. Those Edge Computing (mini) data centers are usually very cl= ose to, or co-located with, 5G base stations, with the goal to minimize lat= ency and optimize the user experience. Increasingly, Anycast is used by various application providers and CDNs bec= ause it is possible to dynamically load balance across multiple locations o= f the same address based on network conditions. Application Server locatio= n selection using Anycast address leverages the proximity information prese= nt in the network (routing) layer and eliminates the single point of failur= e and bottleneck at the DNS resolvers and application layer load balancers.= Another benefit of using ANYCAST address is removing the dependency on UEs= that use their cached IP addresses instead of querying DNS when they move = to a new location. But selection of an ANYCAST location purely based on the network condition = can encounter issue of the location selected by IP routing information bein= g overutilized while there are available underutilized locations close by. That is why we propose those IP Layer metrics to better optimize the forwar= ding for 5G Edge Computing services. Thank you very much Linda Dunbar --_000_SN6PR13MB233405171C4090503A0763D285100SN6PR13MB2334namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Tommy and Ian,

 

We would like a 10-minute slot at the IPPM session i= n IETF109 to discuss the following draft:

https://datatrack= er.ietf.org/doc/draft-dunbar-ippm-5g-edge-compute-ip-layer-metrics/<= /a>

 

The draft describes the IP Layer metrics and methods to measure the E= dge Computing Servers running status and environment for IP networks to sel= ect the optimal Edge Computing server location in 5G Edge Computing (EC) environment. This document also describ= es the method of incorporating those measurements with IP routing cost to c= ome up with a more optimal criteria in selecting ANYCAST locations.

 

The draft proposes  methods to compute the Load Measurement Inde= x at each location of the App Server, to derive Capacity Index of each loca= tion, and the Site preference. The draft also proposes an algorithm for ingress node to choose the ANYCAST location= based on Load Measurement, The Capacity Index, the site preference Index a= nd network delay.

 

We greatly appreciate your feedback on those proposed IP Layer metric= s.

 

A little bit background:

In 5G Edge Computing environment, one Application can have multiple Applica= tion Servers hosted in different Edge Computing data centers that are close= in proximity. Those Edge Computing (mini) data centers are usually very cl= ose to, or co-located with, 5G base stations, with the goal to minimize latency and optimize the user experien= ce.

 

Increasingly, Anycast is used by various application providers and CDNs bec= ause it is possible to dynamically load balance across multiple locations o= f the same address based on network conditions.  Application Server lo= cation selection using Anycast address leverages the proximity information present in the network (routing) layer= and eliminates the single point of failure and bottleneck at the DNS resol= vers and application layer load balancers. Another benefit of using ANYCAST= address is removing the dependency on UEs that use their cached IP addresses instead of querying DNS when the= y move to a new location.

 

But selection of an ANYCA= ST location purely based on the network condition can encounter issue of th= e location selected by IP routing information being overutilized while ther= e are available underutilized locations close by. 

That is why we propose th= ose IP Layer metrics to better optimize the forwarding for 5G Edge Computin= g services.

 

Thank you very much

Linda Dunbar

 

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Mon, 2 Nov 2020 18:27:53 +0000 From: Haoyu Song To: Tommy Pauly , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" CC: IPPM Chairs Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang Thread-Index: AQHWruxMC3S2ZofrVk6q+AGHa+5T9am1LWjQ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 18:27:53 +0000 Message-ID: References: <43DADFB5-FE8A-49A1-BF39-1ECC10594211@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <43DADFB5-FE8A-49A1-BF39-1ECC10594211@apple.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: dmarc.ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc.ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=futurewei.com; x-originating-ip: [2600:1700:38c4:650:4434:eb6e:8e74:1292] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 926eb5e0-3583-4d67-38ff-08d87f5d0356 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM6PR13MB2828: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:4502; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: nX5nvzwFm9GTF9ijjCP16Nl1FOpqd+xd4+u4EAb10WMMOXrLcS5iIEuwnyikrUcYeUNks52OFwgD9n1fhKoQwcQ2P5Fek5HS59HADbbdbxIOj797koiWYXsclONzcFpT23E32M55OzYsDY627NVaxQbvDGYfIohlMDXMWlnxv1KwKdPY3UnR8gUtT9d9W+F4oQ5A9qikUImWBBd4l9o3b67/Xoxq8PB7ba2NdV1bSvsoRwjlZbbVpstXXNuV5Mty485KklfCilrEzGBmV4piVeaAzDFYY8XAwm+o+oyhOjxzuE2KX8jCjeycqCIshCYom5uedQVAncI2v95w9uIImXG4AIqJlgekOb/UrR3jsFYJKN3QA8YlCGGwEBRNkjvtvS/5YKC3XENJG+3HzitNGw== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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boundary="_000_DM6PR13MB2762CC7DD97F26A95B9CE27A9A100DM6PR13MB2762namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR13MB2762.namprd13.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 926eb5e0-3583-4d67-38ff-08d87f5d0356 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 02 Nov 2020 18:27:53.5994 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: ad1R79otEhzhn9/+UQe4aqWUa6zdTxZqEtycGfhQfh96Nxzq9033QwpbYyJQLw6gzADG8ssbooYqI5+r7g4b8Q== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR13MB2828 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2020 18:28:07 -0000 --_000_DM6PR13MB2762CC7DD97F26A95B9CE27A9A100DM6PR13MB2762namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I support the adoption of the draft. Thanks! Haoyu From: ippm On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly Sent: Friday, October 30, 2020 11:41 AM To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Cc: IPPM Chairs Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang Hello IPPM, This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-zhou-ippm-ioa= m-yang. Now that our IOAM documents are mature and progressing, the chairs = believe it is time to consider the YANG work officially. The document can be found here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-08 Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mon= day, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian --_000_DM6PR13MB2762CC7DD97F26A95B9CE27A9A100DM6PR13MB2762namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I support the adoption of the draft. Thanks!

 

Haoyu

 

From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> O= n Behalf Of Tommy Pauly
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2020 11:41 AM
To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang

 

Hello IPPM,


This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-zhou-ipp= m-ioam-yang. Now that our IOAM documents are mature and progressing, the ch= airs believe it is time to consider the YANG work officially.

The document can be found here:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-08

Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, o= n Monday, November 16.

Best,
Tommy & Ian

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boundary="_000_DM6PR13MB27629EF5702672CEC357086B9A100DM6PR13MB2762namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR13MB2762.namprd13.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: a7cd9681-f164-42ae-df00-08d87f5d1b1b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 02 Nov 2020 18:28:33.4713 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: atRvSeKG52opsr2wr6fPYosFFl4C2/vsQaW4kvYAf0xF6EGIo24oc5lCYJPcAIgYh6pUIuJp9xmZipuhBxXlSA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR13MB3450 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] updated draft: PBT-M X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2020 18:28:56 -0000 --_000_DM6PR13MB27629EF5702672CEC357086B9A100DM6PR13MB2762namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-ippm-postcard-based-telemetry/ Hi IPPM WG, The newly updated draft describes a standalone telemetry technique: allowin= g marked user packet to trigger in-situ data collection. It complements the IOAM, DEX, and HTS very well. An embodiment of this technique has been used for SRv6 OAM in an adopted WG= draft(https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam/) We are glad to have Greg joining us and he has helped to improve the docume= nt. Please review the draft and provide your comments. As the IPPM chairs suggested, we need to see enough interests for this work= to make it adopted. If you are interested in participating in this work, please also let us kno= w. Thank you very much! Best regards, Haoyu --_000_DM6PR13MB27629EF5702672CEC357086B9A100DM6PR13MB2762namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-s= ong-ippm-postcard-based-telemetry/

 

Hi IPPM WG,

 

The newly updated draft describes a standalone telem= etry technique: allowing marked user packet to trigger in-situ data collect= ion.

It complements the IOAM, DEX, and HTS very well.

An embodiment of this technique has been used for SR= v6 OAM in an adopted WG draft(https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet= f-6man-spring-srv6-oam/)

We are glad to have Greg joining us and he has helpe= d to improve the document. Please review the draft and provide your comment= s.

As the IPPM chairs suggested, we need to see enough = interests for this work to make it adopted.

If you are interested in participating in this work,= please also let us know. Thank you very much!

 

Best regards,

Haoyu

 

--_000_DM6PR13MB27629EF5702672CEC357086B9A100DM6PR13MB2762namp_-- From nobody Mon Nov 2 14:42:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B4573A1261; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 14:42:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FG8ChzVE9gZ7; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 14:42:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x133.google.com (mail-lf1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D53153A1258; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 14:42:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x133.google.com with SMTP id 184so19568626lfd.6; Mon, 02 Nov 2020 14:42:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ezI6+ihLDHh7w8MrRAy5A4n+aiwcNiq3EotfcnxYXRA=; b=M1UN+EipqiWPAIzSViX4NrFwrGpqrDOdrSMHYzCwdVMEtJ5Z9ytPauAG55dMaVhUrW 3utADQlU6mkw0K5NdMkWE3GtZx7qgaR5JSB88/jFm3V0I2rnWlcCcOzULMdpnxEqYQUu XkXDYNzuy+FTGqqlEtEv42SGKPfY8hGTNtKTjrxB1g19SLQJn/R6HKK65eYnl2O8i9Zf Y/I/Jjv1S/6KqMlozSa9D7k2LrprBT36lShUmjOKXyZoyvM0PUf725EELeya+ViZnikE mSJQl6O4I/WLOoYpJOR8xvtroDc4B2DikjmB2BW/arBHOYuZoqwacWIm1DfQsfZbjQeu tfNg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ezI6+ihLDHh7w8MrRAy5A4n+aiwcNiq3EotfcnxYXRA=; b=Kw9vL5D3sTzTNjrNnRG1h5Q6CrU6BG6a2608rDiuOXY7Q8dZgn7gIKGugaG1fyt5wQ Ako2zu4QKmUFONNMcaz7qMNqoud3sgmRcqiged/w9WXGxddwEs9z929unVXw5rvcCEWC U0uzBtMFCMayECOigN3hdUVavrqv4FmGAUNZj9+OEJpZYXNE/m+7clPRt4aZq9H8iEnQ FQvQv46EXOUt0TvN+euMGVcm//lq1r2JeLVpb9TqJ3JEnmI1m3jvHIAfAiRaRxsn+NFA PNpUM9831aqoeEH9FfuJITM5evHYKQUqoEertpaR3Fv/+Vgsdis+7kXuvCdHYT9p/EsB MQ1Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533fyb8+38BBWYyIi+NfasHfIGUvSkQb+RMSKjCfFkTord32qP+y JhCswgi1sVkKpZ+g/fJ7gHgpBqXzWqpC8rkjmidJGBB/ X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzYHX1cLmBuso7lFf3JHTRnO8Byo7JpvgqWf2/LKG6/MH2jEZMDMfREgL7Iyahhs14ObfUso/5IIZ0+hUhBxX8= X-Received: by 2002:a19:4b44:: with SMTP id y65mr6192326lfa.331.1604356958456; Mon, 02 Nov 2020 14:42:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Greg Mirsky Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 14:42:27 -0800 Message-ID: To: IETF IPPM WG , IPPM Chairs , draft-mirsky-ippm-hybrid-two-step@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009a102d05b3277648" Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] A presentation slot request X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2020 22:42:42 -0000 --0000000000009a102d05b3277648 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Ian and Tommy, the draft had received good comments on the list and was updated based on them. Much appreciate your consideration and granting it a 10 min presentation at the IPPM WG meeting. draft-mirsky-ippm-hybrid-two-step Presenter: Greg Mirsky Duration: 10 min. Regards, Greg --0000000000009a102d05b3277648 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Ian and Tommy,
the draft had received good commen= ts on the list and was updated based on them. Much appreciate your consider= ation and granting it a 10 min presentation at the IPPM WG meeting.

draft-mirsky-ippm-hybrid-two-step=C2=A0 Presenter: Greg M= irsky=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Duration: 10 min.

Regards,
Greg
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YnI+PC9wPjwvZGl2Pg== --=====_003_next=====-- --=====_002_next=====-- --=====_001_next=====-- From nobody Mon Nov 2 22:17:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ECE53A14B8; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 22:17:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NY_ezW6ryD4a; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 22:17:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B2083A14B4; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 22:17:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml721-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 07AE76679FB3EA702A92; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 06:17:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from lhreml721-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.72) by lhreml721-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.72) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 06:17:50 +0000 Received: from DGGEML423-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.40) by lhreml721-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.72) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.1913.5 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 06:17:50 +0000 Received: from DGGEML530-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.130]) by dggeml423-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.40]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 14:17:47 +0800 From: Mach Chen To: Tommy Pauly , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" CC: IPPM Chairs , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Thread-Index: AQHWrutxTJVi9zzpG0iVJvrFDESlT6m18/Cw Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 06:17:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.140] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE297F64AE2dggeml530mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 06:17:57 -0000 --_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE297F64AE2dggeml530mbschi_ 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score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l_QDbKdLKEeW; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 22:24:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 124D03A104B; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 22:24:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml731-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id BC04E74992200961AB11; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 06:24:11 +0000 (GMT) Received: from lhreml731-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.82) by lhreml731-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.82) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 06:24:11 +0000 Received: from DGGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.38) by lhreml731-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.82) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.1913.5 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 06:24:11 +0000 Received: from DGGEML530-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.130]) by DGGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::fca6:7568:4ee3:c776%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 14:24:05 +0800 From: Mach Chen To: Tommy Pauly , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" CC: IPPM Chairs Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang Thread-Index: AQHWruxHhQtaaSLPKEOslucfCndRsqm19IbQ Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 06:24:06 +0000 Message-ID: References: <43DADFB5-FE8A-49A1-BF39-1ECC10594211@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <43DADFB5-FE8A-49A1-BF39-1ECC10594211@apple.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.140] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE297F64AF9dggeml530mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 06:24:15 -0000 --_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE297F64AF9dggeml530mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I have read the draft and think it's in a good shape. Therefore, I support = the adoption on this draft. Best regards, Mach From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2020 2:41 AM To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Cc: IPPM Chairs Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang Hello IPPM, This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-zhou-ippm-ioa= m-yang. Now that our IOAM documents are mature and progressing, the chairs = believe it is time to consider the YANG work officially. The document can be found here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-08 Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mon= day, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian --_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE297F64AF9dggeml530mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,<= /p>

 

I have read the draft = and think it’s in a good shape. Therefore, I support the adoption on = this draft.

 

Best regards,

Mach=

 

From: = ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly
Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2020 2:41 AM
To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang

 

Hello IPPM,


This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-zhou-ipp= m-ioam-yang. Now that our IOAM documents are mature and progressing, the ch= airs believe it is time to consider the YANG work officially.

The document can be found here:

https:= //tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-08

Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, o= n Monday, November 16.

Best,
Tommy & Ian

--_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE297F64AF9dggeml530mbschi_-- From nobody Mon Nov 2 22:33:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A71543A14D3 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 22:32:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mVQNXDVsKShG for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 22:32:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from sendh.mailex.chinaunicom.cn (sendh.mailex.chinaunicom.cn [210.53.66.231]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F399B3A14D2 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 22:32:51 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 0a000f36-b51a7a80000014ba-7f-5fa0f9915e78 Received: from M10-HQ-MLCEN01.cnc.intra (Unknown_Domain [10.249.212.31]) by sendh.mailex.chinaunicom.cn (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id C8.D3.05306.199F0AF5; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 14:32:49 +0800 (HKT) Received: from M10-HQ-ML08.hq.cnc.intra (10.249.213.78) by M10-HQ-MLCEN01.cnc.intra (10.249.212.31) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 14:32:49 +0800 Received: from M10-HQ-ML12.hq.cnc.intra (10.249.213.82) by M10-HQ-ML08.hq.cnc.intra (10.249.213.78) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 14:32:48 +0800 Received: from M10-HQ-ML12.hq.cnc.intra ([fe80::bd63:41bc:2ac:9ed5]) by M10-HQ-ML12.hq.cnc.intra ([fe80::bd63:41bc:2ac:9ed5%21]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.006; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 14:32:48 +0800 From: =?gb2312?B?Q2hhbmcgTGl1KMGqzai8r83F1tC5+sGqzajR0L6/1Lotsb6yvyk=?= To: ippm Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state Thread-Index: AQHWsan8r+0Rur68b0CJUZK7U/cwOw== Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 06:32:48 +0000 Message-ID: <0be96cc7b52a4a299876da33442cc8ef@M10-HQ-ML12.hq.cnc.intra> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [153.0.7.149] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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Hi,

We have read this draft. And we support the adoption of it.

Best Regards

Liu Chang
China Unicom
Email: liuc131@chinauni= com.cn
Phone: +861= 8601102572

---Original---
From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On B= ehalf Of Tommy Pauly
Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2020 2:46 AM
To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf= .org>
Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-= ippm-ioam-conf-state

Hello IPPM,

This email starts a Working Group call for ado= ption for draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state. This document has been presented= several times and discussed within the working group in the context of our= overall IOAM work.

The document can be found here:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xiao-ippm-io= am-conf-state-07<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-0= 8>

Please provide your feedback on these document= , and state whether or not you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work b= y replying to this email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the = IETF 109 meeting week, on Monday, November 16.

Best,
Tommy & Ian


=C8=E7=B9=FB=C4=FA=B4=ED=CE=F3=BD=D3=CA=D5=C1=CB=B8=C3=D3=CA=BC=FE=A3=AC=C7= =EB=CD=A8=B9=FD=B5=E7=D7=D3=D3=CA=BC=FE=C1=A2=BC=B4=CD=A8=D6=AA=CE=D2=C3=C7= =A1=A3=C7=EB=BB=D8=B8=B4=D3=CA=BC=FE=B5=BD hqs-spmc@chinaunicom.cn=A3= =AC=BC=B4=BF=C9=D2=D4=CD=CB=B6=A9=B4=CB=D3=CA=BC=FE=A1=A3=CE=D2=C3=C7=BD=AB= =C1=A2=BC=B4=BD=AB=C4=FA=B5=C4=D0=C5=CF=A2=B4=D3=CE=D2=C3=C7=B5=C4=B7=A2=CB= =CD=C4=BF=C2=BC=D6=D0=C9=BE=B3=FD=A1=A3 If you have received this email in = error please notify us immediately by e-mail. Please reply to hqs-spmc= @chinaunicom.cn ,you can unsubscribe from this mail. We will immediate= ly remove your information from send catalogue of our. --_000_0be96cc7b52a4a299876da33442cc8efM10HQML12hqcncintra_-- From nobody Mon Nov 2 23:42:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06BE83A1519; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 23:42:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.332 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.332 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, INVALID_MSGID=0.568, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JEaE0UeaX7Lh; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 23:42:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C4103A1510; Mon, 2 Nov 2020 23:42:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml726-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 43A4CED3E626699455B3; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 07:42:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from lhreml726-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.77) by lhreml726-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.77) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 07:42:17 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.212) by lhreml726-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.77) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.1913.5 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 07:42:16 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.215]) by DGGEMM404-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.212]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 15:42:11 +0800 From: Lizhenbin To: Tommy Pauly , ippm CC: IPPM Chairs Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang Thread-Index: AQHWruxHo7Zy+g+2HEWXCrWJs21tCqm2C9VW Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 07:42:11 +0000 Message-ID: 61A09B1B-F7E5-4B59-AB48-77216B4E6AFD References: <43DADFB5-FE8A-49A1-BF39-1ECC10594211@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <43DADFB5-FE8A-49A1-BF39-1ECC10594211@apple.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_61A09B1BF7E54B59AB4877216B4E6AFD_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 07:42:21 -0000 --_000_61A09B1BF7E54B59AB4877216B4E6AFD_ 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(unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 9FF14C3F1A31AB9DE215; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 07:43:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from lhreml730-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.81) by lhreml730-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.81) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 07:43:45 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM422-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.198.39) by lhreml730-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.81) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.1913.5 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 07:43:45 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.215]) by dggemm422-hub.china.huawei.com ([169.254.138.104]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 15:43:36 +0800 From: Lizhenbin To: Tommy Pauly , ippm CC: IPPM Chairs , spring-chairs Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Thread-Index: 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i=@guest.telecomitalia.it; t=1604400289; x=2468313889; h=MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID:Subject:To; bh=BQNCoXlLouDAyidP9sDEeEURse5Ex2vH3udPtvA0if0=; b=FZdgL2SNYI3PB97HXiRIl8FflrLRnpiGKeIpnjq1DnHWIZvyt48ZOkd+UaXI3GCp xB9MUL+x616RXtNMjTUW8BHX+OJaHV3caSDUEj03jHyj0/2+jGlQcN8BVG87eNBk tWD/jb+wO89XztXBFwkx9Dd0vvvNf1YzBDx9e8l3d2L/pxu1UOxycZVJuG+4R1FX W3bgwKX2R7eTfPkkCA6Hmju9HAQNCR9ZIqWEKYkoWQjar9MRq1qPPhb3l7w7pyr7 KVo9rMz/nv2Y5DBmgGJ6bhYsFezlWyiO0JqdUNnzl28bUnRZRjqlBFeamPpWBLOH 08kA29GPRMrARiPmOoudLQ==; X-AuditID: 0a5a2d15-d45ff70000002122-85-5fa134a0b235 Received: from TELMBXC12BA020.telecomitalia.local ( [10.90.43.46]) by mx05.telecomitalia.it () with SMTP id EA.0D.08482.0A431AF5; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 11:44:48 +0100 (CET) From: "Bulgarella Fabio (Guest)" To: IETF IPPM WG CC: "draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements@ietf.org" , Jari Arkko , Marcus Ihlar , "emile.stephan@orange.com" , "quic@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHWsc0qYMdqljwHRUqrtLn2ZvqS7g== Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 10:44:48 +0000 Message-ID: <1604400288305.52374@guest.telecomitalia.it> References: <160433105106.15151.4734142538796326112@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <160433105106.15151.4734142538796326112@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: it-IT, en-US Content-Language: it-IT X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [5.8.125.37] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmpmkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42LhitLW011gsjDeYPpfS4tZz5ewWRzc/4PF oufBO2aLQz15FgdfvmK16FnA7cDm8evrVTaPJUt+Mnm0PDvJFsAcxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJXx 4VF+wSuJisvbuRoYL4h0MXJySAiYSJy8uoy5i5GLQ0hgJaPE/6Wd7F2MHBxsAl4Ss+8og5gi AgoSkx77g5QwC8xlkvjQdJoZpFdYIFpi5o75LCC2iECsxNV1l5kgbD2JO2/OMILYLAIqElcf vgSL8wpYSJxa0g7WKyTgLLHt4guwOKeAi8TxVe/BbEYBWYkJuxeB9TILiEu8mH6CHeJOAYkl 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WG,=0A= =0A= following up the discussion on the mailing list and in the previous meeting= (IETF 108), we merged the previous two drafts on explicit measures (draft-= ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits, draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) in t= he enclosed new document.=0A= =0A= The authors of the previous drafts and other contributors jointly worked on= this new revision in order to merge the content of the two drafts making a= unified explanation.=0A= A recap section has been added to give an immediate overview of the availab= le methodologies, for both delay and loss metrics, by using comparing table= s.=0A= =0A= If you want, you could also have a look at this new related IPPM draft http= s://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-cnbf-ippm-user-devices-explicit-monitorin= g-00.txt=0A= =0A= Comments and suggestions are more than welcome.=0A= =0A= Best Regards,=0A= Fabio B.=0A= =0A= =0A= ________________________________________=0A= Da: internet-drafts@ietf.org =0A= Inviato: luned=EC 2 novembre 2020 16:30=0A= A: Riccardo Sisto; Giuseppe Fioccola; Bulgarella Fabio (Guest); Alexandre F= errieux; Isabelle Hamchaoui; Igor Lubashev; Cociglio Mauro; Dmitri Tikhonov= ; Nilo Massimo=0A= Oggetto: [EXT] New Version Notification for draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-me= asurements-00.txt=0A= =0A= A new version of I-D, draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements-00.txt=0A= has been successfully submitted by Igor Lubashev and posted to the=0A= IETF repository.=0A= =0A= Name: draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements=0A= Revision: 00=0A= Title: Explicit Flow Measurements Techniques=0A= Document date: 2020-11-02=0A= Group: Individual Submission=0A= Pages: 38=0A= URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flo= w-measurements-00.txt=0A= Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-fl= ow-measurements/=0A= Html: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flo= w-measurements-00.html=0A= Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-me= asurements-00=0A= =0A= =0A= Abstract:=0A= This document describes protocol independent methods called Explicit=0A= Flow Measurement Techniques that employ few marking bits, inside the=0A= header of each packet, for loss and delay measurement. The=0A= endpoints, marking the traffic, signal these metrics to intermediate=0A= observers allowing them to measure connection performance, and to=0A= locate the network segment where impairments happen. Different=0A= alternatives are considered within this document. These signaling=0A= methods apply to all protocols but they are especially valuable when=0A= applied to protocols that encrypt transport header and do not allow=0A= traditional methods for delay and loss detection.=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n=0A= until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.=0A= =0A= The IETF Secretariat=0A= =0A= =0A= From nobody Tue Nov 3 08:34:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD0A53A0D9D; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 08:34:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u8Rr7BLtcdG7; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 08:34:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x232.google.com (mail-lj1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C4843A0A85; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 08:34:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x232.google.com with SMTP id k25so19728664lji.9; Tue, 03 Nov 2020 08:34:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=T14MbLkhf8tJ1cvQz3bdQhX2r+xYK1B4zOTpWW6adgo=; b=hzCQxzNRhYCkg+HyjfKNi5s+M9HPkCwSsgP5mq26X1VQdVr1rsdPt1z43RY/WXbh/P k3zQWZY58+KKysnVxtjnyhHLJoDRGxR6hx47h0BqCZ8IbrwKprQq1M9SZxfDjGUkCVMR xE869CZYKGyIwtfY/78JHZbOPXcgzNycaCUdDPzdhO07xFswrY0pqa/Gd0IWye/V6Rir KunDzxUeYNWMIKlmEOi2SPV/n+pJ50M/qdfAZEH17FPKWzdcZlVrHhikdZHomVd4n+Wj +oqRNJfUCAe72BnVUTAdpPAzsr98vMsar8FeDBbZudw+tqud0ZezvNQp4+VZCdfWR0Yu N2XQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=T14MbLkhf8tJ1cvQz3bdQhX2r+xYK1B4zOTpWW6adgo=; b=IZ5w+m8dtQFL9kGkiV+ZMUHurS8h6OmFpBaYVnIqpEOq9Eo0bTxQ9oDSXB/M/SRrUY veZkNXBcZqkaOk/6mXNh3Mbmw+do21VCwpsn/gha6aJmP3Top+flq+etBu1bh5H+joC4 mm/XXt6fbdC5mJJMi1tHwYP4xdy5e92/CKQLBZxhIIHOBRrvOgGWyCBt14edBKPV6eHu m20m3fBpBkoiIxH3qWrLWItAI5mAzu+EIQDjUA6MABunYo0ATm1fl35/3ubm7JRPn+AU rOsz+IkiJ/yzz+aoetikIeubq1pscjmUCsBSF6oUrKs8wDKOkLWDZox+0iFPl9GwIDnJ 1LEA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532R5E+vmqbGko1l1THTzJfTq/7a4ffKn1F6N53WaCk23vrJ36Vc TCRZ9HXaq/ICTEncJ9oJ/4SGrkQXKx6CrvAn8I6Uiby1 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyR+YJDHrH4FuUO+4ljWOhR1A/pMUnyu72FXCDqkR03/YYGDkENq11gCTZ/OuFP5MWumBTnKuOWVAs1YHuI1QU= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:6e11:: with SMTP id j17mr9591830ljc.288.1604421283305; Tue, 03 Nov 2020 08:34:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5E408E0E-862E-480B-88FD-890098340EBC@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <5E408E0E-862E-480B-88FD-890098340EBC@apple.com> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 08:34:31 -0800 Message-ID: To: Tommy Pauly Cc: "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" , IPPM Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a95d5505b33670f7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 16:34:47 -0000 --000000000000a95d5505b33670f7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear WG Chairs, et al., as co-author, I support adoption of this draft by the IPPM WG. I believe it addresses practical use cases in the deployment of iOAM and the solution proposed in the draft is technically sound. Regards, Greg On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:46 AM Tommy Pauly wrote: > Hello IPPM, > > This email starts a Working Group call for adoption > for draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state. This document has been presented > several times and discussed within the working group in the context of our > overall IOAM work. > > The document can be found here: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state-07 > > > Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not > you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. > Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on *Monday, > November 16*. > > Best, > Tommy & Ian > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > --000000000000a95d5505b33670f7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear WG Chairs, et al.,
as co-author, I support adopti= on of this draft by the IPPM WG. I believe it addresses practical use cases= in the deployment of iOAM and the solution proposed in the draft is techni= cally sound.

Regards,
Greg
On Fri, = Oct 30, 2020 at 11:46 AM Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Hello IPPM,

This email starts a Working Gr= oup call for adoption for=C2=A0draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state. This docume= nt has been presented several times and discussed within the working group = in the context of our overall IOAM work.

The document can be found h= ere:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-co= nf-state-07

Please provide your feedback on these document, and = state whether or not you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by repl= ying to this email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 1= 09 meeting=C2=A0week, on=C2=A0Monday, November 16.

Best,
T= ommy & Ian
_______________________________________________ ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
--000000000000a95d5505b33670f7-- From nobody Tue Nov 3 17:46:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A2843A1317; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 17:46:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.887 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FONT_INVIS_MSGID=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D4SxVJZAFSvg; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 17:46:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta3.chinamobile.com (cmccmta3.chinamobile.com [221.176.66.81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 562793A1314; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 17:46:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from spf.mail.chinamobile.com (unknown[172.16.121.3]) by rmmx-syy-dmz-app10-12010 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2eea5fa207fb73c-94d2a; Wed, 04 Nov 2020 09:46:36 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2eea5fa207fb73c-94d2a X-RM-TagInfo: emlType=0 X-RM-SPAM-FLAG: 00000000 Received: from cmcc (unknown[10.2.50.227]) by rmsmtp-syy-appsvr02-12002 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee25fa207f9dfd-f4383; Wed, 04 Nov 2020 09:46:35 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee25fa207f9dfd-f4383 Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 09:46:43 +0800 From: yanghongwei To: "Tommy Pauly" , ippm Cc: "IPPM Chairs" References: <43DADFB5-FE8A-49A1-BF39-1ECC10594211@apple.com> X-Priority: 3 X-Has-Attach: no X-Mailer: Foxmail 7.2.18.95[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2020110409464285018424@chinamobile.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_001_NextPart883024153525_=----" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2020 01:46:54 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_001_NextPart883024153525_=---- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGnvvIwNCg0KSSB0aGluayB0aGlzIGRyYWZ0IGlzIHVzZWZ1bCBmb3IgSU9BTSBkZXZlbG9wbWVu dCBhbmQgZGVwbG95bWVudC4NCkkgc3VwcG9ydCB0aGUgYWRvcHRpb24gb2YgdGhpcyBkcmFmdC4N Cg0KQmVzdCwNCkhvbmd3ZWkuDQoNCg0KIA0KRnJvbTogVG9tbXkgUGF1bHkNCkRhdGU6IDIwMjAt MTAtMzEgMDI6NDANClRvOiBJRVRGIElQUE0gV0cgKGlwcG1AaWV0Zi5vcmcpDQpDQzogSVBQTSBD aGFpcnMNClN1YmplY3Q6IFtpcHBtXSBDYWxsIGZvciBhZG9wdGlvbjogZHJhZnQtemhvdS1pcHBt LWlvYW0teWFuZw0KSGVsbG8gSVBQTSwNCg0KVGhpcyBlbWFpbCBzdGFydHMgYSBXb3JraW5nIEdy b3VwIGNhbGwgZm9yIGFkb3B0aW9uIGZvciBkcmFmdC16aG91LWlwcG0taW9hbS15YW5nLiBOb3cg dGhhdCBvdXIgSU9BTSBkb2N1bWVudHMgYXJlIG1hdHVyZSBhbmQgcHJvZ3Jlc3NpbmcsIHRoZSBj aGFpcnMgYmVsaWV2ZSBpdCBpcyB0aW1lIHRvIGNvbnNpZGVyIHRoZSBZQU5HIHdvcmsgb2ZmaWNp YWxseS4NCg0KVGhlIGRvY3VtZW50IGNhbiBiZSBmb3VuZCBoZXJlOg0KDQpodHRwczovL3Rvb2xz LmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtemhvdS1pcHBtLWlvYW0teWFuZy0wOA0KDQpQbGVhc2UgcHJv dmlkZSB5b3VyIGZlZWRiYWNrIG9uIHRoZXNlIGRvY3VtZW50LCBhbmQgc3RhdGUgd2hldGhlciBv ciBub3QgeW91IGJlbGlldmUgdGhlIElQUE0gV0cgc2hvdWxkIGFkb3B0IHRoaXMgd29yayBieSBy ZXBseWluZyB0byB0aGlzIGVtYWlsLiBQbGVhc2UgcHJvdmlkZSB5b3VyIGZlZWRiYWNrIGJ5IHRo ZSBzdGFydCBvZiB0aGUgSUVURiAxMDkgbWVldGluZyB3ZWVrLCBvbiBNb25kYXksIE5vdmVtYmVy IDE2Lg0KDQpCZXN0LA0KVG9tbXkgJiBJYW4NCg== ------=_001_NextPart883024153525_=---- Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = =0A
Hi=EF=BC=8C

I think this draft is useful for IOAM development an= d deployment.
I support the adopt= ion of this draft.

Best,
Hongwei.=0A


=0A
 
<= div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm = 0cm 0cm">
Date: 20= 20-10-31 02:40
Subject:&nb= sp;[ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang
=0A
Hello IPPM= ,

This email starts a Working Group ca= ll for adoption for draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang. Now that our IOAM docu= ments are mature and progressing, the chairs believe it is time to conside= r the YANG work officially.

The document can = be found here:

https://tools.ietf.org/h= tml/draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-08

Please p= rovide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not you belie= ve the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Please pr= ovide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on&nbs= p;Monday, November 16.

Best= ,
Tommy & Ian
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X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D3KTVXI44bms; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 22:56:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E89B23A0AA6; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 22:56:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml715-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.207]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4CQy8J3lpxz67HL8; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 14:55:12 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.33) by fraeml715-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 07:56:42 +0100 Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) by fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 07:56:42 +0100 From: Giuseppe Fioccola To: Tommy Pauly , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" CC: IPPM Chairs Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang Thread-Index: AQHWruxIgRHruvw6tkaY/K0L4BGfu6m3kKeQ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 06:56:42 +0000 Message-ID: <4207d692c8924ada9ecef68ceb903f99@huawei.com> References: <43DADFB5-FE8A-49A1-BF39-1ECC10594211@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <43DADFB5-FE8A-49A1-BF39-1ECC10594211@apple.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.48.220.253] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4207d692c8924ada9ecef68ceb903f99huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2020 06:56:47 -0000 --_000_4207d692c8924ada9ecef68ceb903f99huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All, I have read it and I support its adoption. Regards, Giuseppe From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly Sent: Friday, October 30, 2020 7:41 PM To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Cc: IPPM Chairs Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang Hello IPPM, This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-zhou-ippm-ioa= m-yang. Now that our IOAM documents are mature and progressing, the chairs = believe it is time to consider the YANG work officially. The document can be found here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-08 Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mon= day, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian --_000_4207d692c8924ada9ecef68ceb903f99huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear All,

I have read it and I support its adop= tion.

 

Regards,

 

Giuseppe

&nbs= p;

From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf= .org] On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly
Sent: Friday, October 30, 2020 7:41 PM
To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang

 

Hello IPPM,


This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-zhou-ipp= m-ioam-yang. Now that our IOAM documents are mature and progressing, the ch= airs believe it is time to consider the YANG work officially.

The document can be found here:

https:= //tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-08

Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, o= n Monday, November 16.

Best,
Tommy & Ian

--_000_4207d692c8924ada9ecef68ceb903f99huaweicom_-- From nobody Wed Nov 4 01:43:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F41B3A0E2F for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 01:43:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1GQxYTIx-Phc for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 01:43:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53E233A0D7B for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 01:43:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml715-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.207]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4CR1rf2Sm7z67HbY for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 17:41:54 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.33) by fraeml715-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 10:43:14 +0100 Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) by fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 10:43:14 +0100 From: Giuseppe Fioccola To: wangyali , ippm Thread-Topic: New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01 Thread-Index: AdasYaNf5HuEbcjjTW+88BYR+uS3xgGKy+Mg Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 09:43:14 +0000 Message-ID: <63c9adc987084725b84c857533c59b79@huawei.com> References: <1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F405050B14@dggeml524-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F405050B14@dggeml524-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.48.220.128] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2020 09:43:19 -0000 Hi Yali, All, I have read this document and it looks interesting. I have a couple of comments: - The document only describes HbH Delay TLV, what about the specification o= f the HbH also for packet loss? - Regarding the IOAM Tracing Data TLV, the STAMP Session-Reflector test pac= ket carries the IOAM tracing data back to the Session-Sender. What about ex= tending this also for Alt Mark? Regards, Giuseppe -----Original Message----- From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of wangyali Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 2:49 PM To: ippm Subject: [ippm] New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01 Hello WG, Draft about extensions to STAMP enable hop-by-hop OAM data measurement and = collection has been updated, which was presented in IETF108. Questions and = comments are welcome. Because the performance of intermediate nodes and links that STAMP test pac= kets traverse are invisible, to solve this problem, this draft extents opti= onal TLVs to STAMP and inserts IOAM Trace option data in the test packets o= r dispatches test packets to the OAM process at OAM Endpoint. =20 In this case, the STAMP instance does not need to be configured at every in= termediate node to measure the performance of intermediate nodes, which dec= reases the complexity of OAM in large-scale networks. What do you think?=20 Best regards, Yali -----Original Message----- From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 9:03 PM To: wangyali ; Tianran Zhou Subject: New Version Notification for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-= 01.txt A new version of I-D, draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Yali Wang and posted to the IETF reposit= ory. Name: draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions Revision: 01 Title: Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol Extensions for Hop-by-Ho= p OAM Data Collection Document date: 2020-10-27 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 10 URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-e= xtensions-01.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-= extensions/ Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-ippm-stamp= -hbh-extensions Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-exten= sions-01 Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-wang-ippm-stamp-h= bh-extensions-01 Abstract: This document defines optional TLVs which are carried in Simple Two- way Active Measurement Protocol (STAMP) test packets to enhance the STAMP base functions. Such extensions to STAMP enable OAM data measurement and collection at every node and link along a STAMP test packet's delivery path. = =20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A=
Hello All,

I've read the doc and= support the adoption.
BTW, the link goes wrong document. someone= should fix it.
=0A=

Best Regards,
Zhenqiang Li
=0A=
li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com
=0A=
 
D= ate: 2020-10-31 02:46
CC:&n= bsp;IPPM Chairs
Su= bject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state
=0A=
Hello IPPM,

This email = starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf= -state. This document has been presented several times and discussed within= the working group in the context of our overall IOAM work.
<= br class=3D"">The document can be found here:

= https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state-07
Please provide your feedback on these document, = and state whether or not you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by = replying to this email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IE= TF 109 meeting week, on Monday, November 16.
Best,
Tommy & Ian
<= /div>
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15.20.3477.036; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 15:41:33 +0000 From: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" To: Tommy Pauly , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" CC: IPPM Chairs , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Thread-Index: AQHWrutq7GpumNfDLU+MuXz2RJO0mqm30ESA Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 15:41:33 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.42.20101102 authentication-results: dmarc.ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc.ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2607:fea8:bee0:c4c:2563:2459:3ccf:73a0] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 7efa9acc-36cc-4544-02fb-08d880d81b75 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN6PR11MB0004: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 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 x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_SN6PR13MB23340B6747554039B178957D85EF0SN6PR13MB2334namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal 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--_000_SN6PR13MB23340B6747554039B178957D85EF0SN6PR13MB2334namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yi Zhou, Liang, Peng, and Peter, We have 4 IETF drafts describing the different aspect of the solutions to 5= G Edge computing, which can cover your use cases and requirement described = in draft-geng-rtgwg-cfn-dyncast-ps-usecase: Through working on the 3GPP Release 17=1B$B!G=1B(Bs 5G Edge Computing proje= ct (3GPP TR23.748), we noticed that IP Layer can do more to optimize the 5G= Edge computing services. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dunbar-ippm-5g-edge-compute-ip-layer= -metrics/ describes the IP Layer metrics and methods to measure = the Edge Computing Servers running status and environment for IP networks t= o select the optimal Edge Computing server location in 5G Edge Computing (E= C) environment. This document also describes the method of incorporating th= ose measurements with IP routing cost to come up with a more optimal criter= ia in selecting ANYCAST locations. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dunbar-6man-5g-edge-compute-sticky-s= ervice/ describes a solution of using IPv6 extension header to h= elp Ingress router to stick traffic from a UE to the original App Server wh= en the UE moves from one 5G Site to another. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dunbar-idr-5g-edge-compute-app-meta-= data/ describes a new BGP Network Layer Reachability Information (BGP NLRI)= Path Attribute, AppMetaData, that can distribute the 5G Edge Computing App= running status and environment, so that other routers in the 5G Local Data= Network can make intelligent decision on optimized forwarding of flows fro= m UEs. The goal is to improve latency and performance for 5G Edge Computing= services. The extension enables a feature, called soft anchoring, which ma= kes one Edge Computing Server at one specific location to be more preferred= than others for the same application to receive packets from a specific so= urce (UE). https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dunbar-lsr-5g-edge-compute-ospf-ext/= describe OSPF extension for the Routers that collect the IP Layer Metric= s to propagate to all other routers. Please let us know if the proposed solutions can solve your use cases. Thank you Linda Dunbar From: rtgwg > On Beha= lf Of Liyizhou Sent: Monday, November 2, 2020 1:17 AM To: rtgwg@ietf.org Cc: Lifeng (Frank) = >; Peng Liu >= ; gengliang@chinamobile.com Subject: Dyncast (dynamic anycast) Hi folks, We submitted two drafts about dyncast (dynamic anycast). draft-geng-rtgwg-cfn-dyncast-ps-usecase draft-li-rtgwg-cfn-dyncast-architecture Edge computing puts the potential requirements on better load balancing amo= ng the computing resources hosted on different edges. The number of such ed= ges could be thousand or even more depending on where the computing resourc= es are located. The expected approach is to consider both network status and computing reso= urces at the same time to determine the best place to forward a new computi= ng demand to. Current solution usually uses DNS-like approach, select the s= ervice instance first (the lowest load or roughly the geographically closes= t instance) and then direct the demand to it regardless how good or bad the= network path reaching it. Anycast based service addressing methodology could be used here to reach th= e best edge in terms of both computation resource and network status at the= same time. Flow affinity and computing aware routing needs to be enhanced = in such an anycast architecture. It is called dynamic anycast in the drafts= . If you have any comments or suggestions, please drop us an email. Appreciat= ed. Regards, Yizhou --_000_SN6PR13MB23340B6747554039B178957D85EF0SN6PR13MB2334namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yi Zhou, Liang, Pen= g, and Peter,

 

We have 4 IETF draf= ts describing the different aspect of the solutions to 5G Edge computing, w= hich can cover your use cases and requirement described in draft-geng-rtgwg= -cfn-dyncast-ps-usecase:

 

Through working on = the 3GPP Release 17=1B$B!G=1B(Bs 5G Edge Computing project (3GPP TR23.748),= we noticed that IP Layer can do more to optimize the 5G Edge computing ser= vices.

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dunb= ar-ippm-5g-edge-compute-ip-layer-metrics/ describes the IP Layer metrics and methods to measure the Edge Computing S= ervers running status and environment for IP networks to select the optimal= Edge Computing server location in 5G Edge Computing (EC) environment. This= document also describes the method of incorporating those measurements with IP routing cost to come up with a= more optimal criteria in selecting ANYCAST locations.

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dunbar-6man-5g-edge-c= ompute-sticky-service/ describes a so= lution of using IPv6 extension header to help Ingre= ss router to stick traffic from a UE to the original App Server when the UE= moves from one 5G Site to another.

 

h= ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dunbar-idr-5g-edge-compute-app-meta-d= ata/ describes a new BGP Network Layer Reachability Information (BGP NLRI) Path Attribute, AppMetaData, that can = distribute the 5G Edge Computing App running status and environment, so tha= t other routers in the 5G Local Data Network can make intelligent decision = on optimized forwarding of flows from UEs. The goal is to improve latency and performance for 5G Edge Compu= ting services. The extension enables a feature, called soft anchoring, whic= h makes one Edge Computing Server at one specific location to be more prefe= rred than others for the same application to receive packets from a specific source (UE).

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dunbar-lsr-5g-edge-compute-osp= f-ext/ describe OSPF extension for the Routers that collect the IP Layer Metrics = to propagate to all other routers.

 

Please let us know = if the proposed solutions can solve your use cases.

 

Thank you

Linda Dunbar

 

 

 

 =

Hi folks,

 

We submitted two drafts about dyncast (dynamic anyca= st).

 

draft-geng-rtgwg-cfn-dyncas= t-ps-usecase

draft-li-rtgwg-cfn-= dyncast-architecture

 

 

Edge computing puts the potential requirements on be= tter load balancing among the computing resources hosted on different edges= . The number of such edges could be thousand or even more depending on wher= e the computing resources are located.

The expected approach is to consider both network st= atus and computing resources at the same time to determine the best place t= o forward a new computing demand to. Current solution usually uses DNS-like= approach, select the service instance first (the lowest load or roughly the geographically closest instance) and= then direct the demand to it regardless how good or bad the network path r= eaching it.

 

Anycast based service addressing methodology could b= e used here to reach the best edge in terms of both computation resource an= d network status at the same time. Flow affinity and computing aware routin= g needs to be enhanced in such an anycast architecture. It is called dynamic anycast in the drafts.

 

If you have any comments or suggestions, please drop= us an email. Appreciated.

 

Regards,

Yizhou

--_000_SN6PR13MB23340B6747554039B178957D85EF0SN6PR13MB2334namp_-- From nobody Wed Nov 4 17:50:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C809F3A1265; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 17:49:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r3QKe_fI3gkb; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 17:49:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from chinatelecom.cn (prt-mail.chinatelecom.cn [42.123.76.228]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B59B3A125E; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 17:49:55 -0800 (PST) HMM_SOURCE_IP: 172.18.0.92:37634.1136634487 HMM_ATTACHE_NUM: 0000 HMM_SOURCE_TYPE: SMTP Received: from clientip-219.142.69.78?logid-e0c8173aa014478fa753d2eafb73f3d5 (unknown [172.18.0.92]) by chinatelecom.cn (HERMES) with SMTP id 412042800D6; Thu, 5 Nov 2020 09:49:49 +0800 (CST) X-189-SAVE-TO-SEND: 71069678@chinatelecom.cn Received: from ([172.18.0.92]) by App0021 with ESMTP id e0c8173aa014478fa753d2eafb73f3d5 for tpauly=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org; Thu Nov 5 09:49:53 2020 X-Transaction-ID: e0c8173aa014478fa753d2eafb73f3d5 X-filter-score: filter<0> X-Real-From: wangjl50@chinatelecom.cn X-Receive-IP: 172.18.0.92 X-MEDUSA-Status: 0 Sender: wangjl50@chinatelecom.cn Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2020 09:49:49 +0800 From: "wangjl50@chinatelecom.cn" To: "Tommy Pauly" , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Cc: "IPPM Chairs" References: <5E408E0E-862E-480B-88FD-890098340EBC@apple.com> X-Priority: 3 X-Has-Attach: no X-Mailer: Foxmail 7.2.18.95[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2020110509494902283734@chinatelecom.cn> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_001_NextPart131764087254_=----" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2020 01:50:00 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_001_NextPart131764087254_=---- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGksDQoNCkkgaGF2ZSByZWFkIHRoaXMgZHJhZnTvvIxhbmQgSSB0aGluayBpdCBpcyB1c2VmdWwg Zm9yIHRoZSBkZXBsb3ltZW50IG9mIGlPQU0uIEkgc3VwcG9ydCB0aGUgYWRvcHRpb24gb2YgaXQu DQoNCkJlc3QgUmVnYXJkcw0KSmlhbmdsb25nIFdhbmcNCg0KDQpGcm9tOiBUb21teSBQYXVseQ0K RGF0ZTogMjAyMC0xMC0zMSAwMjo0Ng0KVG86IElFVEYgSVBQTSBXRyAoaXBwbUBpZXRmLm9yZykN CkNDOiBJUFBNIENoYWlycw0KU3ViamVjdDogW2lwcG1dIENhbGwgZm9yIGFkb3B0aW9uOiBkcmFm dC14aWFvLWlwcG0taW9hbS1jb25mLXN0YXRlDQpIZWxsbyBJUFBNLA0KDQpUaGlzIGVtYWlsIHN0 YXJ0cyBhIFdvcmtpbmcgR3JvdXAgY2FsbCBmb3IgYWRvcHRpb24gZm9yIGRyYWZ0LXhpYW8taXBw bS1pb2FtLWNvbmYtc3RhdGUuIFRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgaGFzIGJlZW4gcHJlc2VudGVkIHNldmVy YWwgdGltZXMgYW5kIGRpc2N1c3NlZCB3aXRoaW4gdGhlIHdvcmtpbmcgZ3JvdXAgaW4gdGhlIGNv bnRleHQgb2Ygb3VyIG92ZXJhbGwgSU9BTSB3b3JrLg0KDQpUaGUgZG9jdW1lbnQgY2FuIGJlIGZv dW5kIGhlcmU6DQoNCmh0dHBzOi8vdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC9kcmFmdC14aWFvLWlwcG0t aW9hbS1jb25mLXN0YXRlLTA3DQoNClBsZWFzZSBwcm92aWRlIHlvdXIgZmVlZGJhY2sgb24gdGhl c2UgZG9jdW1lbnQsIGFuZCBzdGF0ZSB3aGV0aGVyIG9yIG5vdCB5b3UgYmVsaWV2ZSB0aGUgSVBQ TSBXRyBzaG91bGQgYWRvcHQgdGhpcyB3b3JrIGJ5IHJlcGx5aW5nIHRvIHRoaXMgZW1haWwuIFBs ZWFzZSBwcm92aWRlIHlvdXIgZmVlZGJhY2sgYnkgdGhlIHN0YXJ0IG9mIHRoZSBJRVRGIDEwOSBt ZWV0aW5nIHdlZWssIG9uIE1vbmRheSwgTm92ZW1iZXIgMTYuDQoNCkJlc3QsDQpUb21teSAmIElh bg0K ------=_001_NextPart131764087254_=---- Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A<= div>Hi,

I have read this draft=EF= =BC=8Cand I think it is useful for&nb= sp;the deployment of iOAM. I support the adoption of it.

Best Regards
Jianglong Wang

Date: 2020-10-31 02:46
Subject: [ippm] Call for adop= tion: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state
=0A
Hello IPPM,

This email starts a Working Group call for adoption f= or draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state. This document has been presented = several times and discussed within the working group in the context of our= overall IOAM work.

The document can be found= here:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draf= t-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state-07

Please pro= vide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not you believe= the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Please prov= ide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on = Monday, November 16.

Best,<= br class=3D"">Tommy & Ian
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yes/support

Cheers,
Jeff
On Oct 30, 2020, 11:46 AM -0700, To= mmy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com=40dmarc.ietf.org>, wrote:

Hello IPPM,

This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for&=23160;draft-xiao= -ippm-ioam-conf-state. This document has been presented several times and= discussed within the working group in the context of our overall IOAM wo= rk.

The document can be found here:

tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state-07

Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not = you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email.= Please provide your feedback by the start of the IET=46 109 meeting&=231= 60;week, on&=23160;Monday, November 16.

Best,
Tommy & Ian
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
ippm mailing list
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--5fa378b5_66334873_15868-- From nobody Wed Nov 4 23:10:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 196B73A0967; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 23:10:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Av-q_PV6nVFH; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 23:10:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from chinatelecom.cn (prt-mail.chinatelecom.cn [42.123.76.222]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68E833A095F; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 23:10:31 -0800 (PST) HMM_SOURCE_IP: 172.18.0.92:1946.1800488403 HMM_ATTACHE_NUM: 0000 HMM_SOURCE_TYPE: SMTP Received: from clientip-111.201.74.241?logid-4c35bc6a4cf74916ad707a5ef7a32c0c (unknown [172.18.0.92]) by chinatelecom.cn (HERMES) with SMTP id A2EFB280091; Thu, 5 Nov 2020 15:10:13 +0800 (CST) X-189-SAVE-TO-SEND: 66040251@chinatelecom.cn Received: from ([172.18.0.92]) by App0021 with ESMTP id 4c35bc6a4cf74916ad707a5ef7a32c0c for tpauly=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org; Thu Nov 5 15:10:27 2020 X-Transaction-ID: 4c35bc6a4cf74916ad707a5ef7a32c0c X-filter-score: filter<0> X-Real-From: leibo@chinatelecom.cn X-Receive-IP: 172.18.0.92 X-MEDUSA-Status: 0 Sender: leibo@chinatelecom.cn Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2020 15:10:14 +0800 From: "leibo@chinatelecom.cn" To: "tpauly=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org" Cc: ippm-chairs , ippm , "xiao.min2@zte.com.cn" References: 5E408E0E-862E-480B-88FD-890098340EBC@apple.com, <202011041115516966713@zte.com.cn> X-Priority: 3 X-Has-Attach: no X-Mailer: Foxmail 7.2.16.188[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <202011051510136903365@chinatelecom.cn> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_001_NextPart811276236574_=----" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2020 07:10:36 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_001_NextPart811276236574_=---- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RGVhciBXRyBDaGFpcnMsIGV0IGFsLiwNCiAgICAgQXMgY28tYXV0aG9yLCBJIHN1cHBvcnQgdGhl IGFkb3B0aW9uIG9mIHRoaXMgZHJhZnQgYnkgdGhlIElQUE0gV0cuIFRoaXMgd29yayBpcyB1c2Vm dWwgZm9yIElPQU0gZGVwbG95bWVudC4NCg0KQmVzdCBSZWdhcmRzLA0KTGVpIEJvDQoNCg0KDQrp m7fms6IgICANCuS4reWbveeUteS/oeiCoeS7veaciemZkOWFrOWPuOeglOeptumZog0K5Zyw5Z2A 77ya5YyX5Lqs5biC5piM5bmz5Yy65YyX5LiD5a626ZWH5pyq5p2l56eR5oqA5Z+O5Y2X5Yy65Lit 5Zu955S15L+h5YyX5Lqs5L+h5oGv56eR5oqA5Yib5paw5ZutOTAy5a6kDQrpgq7nvJbvvJoxMDIy MDkgDQrnlLXor53vvJrvvIgwMTDvvIk1MDkwMjkwMw0K5omL5py677yaMTg5MTAwMjIwNzYNCg0K 5Y6f5aeL6YKu5Lu2DQrlj5Hku7bkurrvvJpUb21teVBhdWx5DQrmlLbku7bkurrvvJpJRVRGIElQ UE0gV0cgKGlwcG1AaWV0Zi5vcmcpOw0K5oqE6YCB5Lq677yaSVBQTSBDaGFpcnM7DQrml6Ug5pyf IO+8mjIwMjDlubQxMOaciDMx5pelIDAyOjQ2DQrkuLsg6aKYIO+8mltpcHBtXSBDYWxsIGZvciBh ZG9wdGlvbjogZHJhZnQteGlhby1pcHBtLWlvYW0tY29uZi1zdGF0ZQ0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCmlwcG0gbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQppcHBt QGlldGYub3JnDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lwcG0NCg0K SGVsbG8gSVBQTSwNCg0KVGhpcyBlbWFpbCBzdGFydHMgYSBXb3JraW5nIEdyb3VwIGNhbGwgZm9y IGFkb3B0aW9uIGZvciBkcmFmdC14aWFvLWlwcG0taW9hbS1jb25mLXN0YXRlLiBUaGlzIGRvY3Vt ZW50IGhhcyBiZWVuIHByZXNlbnRlZCBzZXZlcmFsIHRpbWVzIGFuZCBkaXNjdXNzZWQgd2l0aGlu IHRoZSB3b3JraW5nIGdyb3VwIGluIHRoZSBjb250ZXh0IG9mIG91ciBvdmVyYWxsIElPQU0gd29y ay4NCg0KVGhlIGRvY3VtZW50IGNhbiBiZSBmb3VuZCBoZXJlOg0KDQpodHRwczovL3Rvb2xzLmll dGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQteGlhby1pcHBtLWlvYW0tY29uZi1zdGF0ZS0wNw0KDQpQbGVhc2Ug cHJvdmlkZSB5b3VyIGZlZWRiYWNrIG9uIHRoZXNlIGRvY3VtZW50LCBhbmQgc3RhdGUgd2hldGhl ciBvciBub3QgeW91IGJlbGlldmUgdGhlIElQUE0gV0cgc2hvdWxkIGFkb3B0IHRoaXMgd29yayBi eSByZXBseWluZyB0byB0aGlzIGVtYWlsLiBQbGVhc2UgcHJvdmlkZSB5b3VyIGZlZWRiYWNrIGJ5 IHRoZSBzdGFydCBvZiB0aGUgSUVURiAxMDkgbWVldGluZyB3ZWVrLCBvbiBNb25kYXksIE5vdmVt YmVyIDE2Lg0KDQpCZXN0LA0KVG9tbXkgJiBJYW4NCg0K ------=_001_NextPart811276236574_=---- Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A
Dear WG Chairs, et al.,
&nbs= p;    As co-author, I support the adoption of this draft by the = IPPM WG. This work is useful for IOAM deployment.

Best Regards,
Lei Bo
=
=0A

=0A
=E9=9B=B7=E6=B3= =A2   
=E4=B8=AD=E5=9B=BD=E7=94=B5=E4=BF=A1=E8=82=A1=E4=BB=BD=E6=9C=89=E9= =99=90=E5=85=AC=E5=8F=B8=E7=A0=94=E7=A9=B6=E9=99=A2

=E5=9C=B0=E5=9D=80=EF=BC=9A=E5=8C=97=E4=BA=AC=E5=B8=82= =E6=98=8C=E5=B9=B3=E5=8C=BA=E5=8C=97=E4=B8=83=E5=AE=B6=E9=95=87=E6=9C=AA= =E6=9D=A5=E7=A7=91=E6=8A=80=E5=9F=8E=E5=8D=97=E5=8C=BA=E4=B8=AD=E5=9B=BD= =E7=94=B5=E4=BF=A1=E5=8C=97=E4=BA=AC=E4=BF=A1=E6=81=AF=E7=A7=91=E6=8A=80= =E5=88=9B=E6=96=B0=E5=9B=AD902=E5=AE=A4

= =E9=82=AE=E7=BC=96=EF=BC=9A102209 

=E7=94=B5=E8=AF=9D= =EF=BC=9A=EF=BC=88010=EF=BC=8950902903

=E6=89=8B=E6=9C=BA=EF=BC=9A189100220= 76

=0A

=
=E5=8E=9F=E5= =A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9ATommyPauly
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9AIETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org);
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9AIPPM Chairs;
=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A2020=E5=B9=B410= =E6=9C=8831=E6=97=A5 02:46
=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A[ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state
__________________________________________= _____
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.= org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

Hello IPPM,

This email starts a Working Group call for adoption= for draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state. This document has been presente= d several times and discussed within the working group in the context of o= ur overall IOAM work.

The document can be fou= nd here:

https://tool= s.ietf.org/html/draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state-07

Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whethe= r or not you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to thi= s email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting=  week, on Monday, November 16.

Best,
Tommy & Ian


=0A ------=_001_NextPart811276236574_=------ From nobody Fri Nov 6 08:17:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4E593A07EA; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 08:17:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vOQ65aKHeVea; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 08:17:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com (mail-lj1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A385C3A07E6; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 08:17:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id y16so1966158ljk.1; Fri, 06 Nov 2020 08:17:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=zQ2rkobH08OxWqX025Bp/OvPZpEqPyuR6yedaAJNg8Y=; b=Trt+vmuxLDm2v3trq3l8jw1LyCTVlmsMFAQPs+O70eCMGThSePOBynKe2TY1SkataH +ZqM8geWCjDBwTAUMm/NrXnbKaLqtoiaetG1mB2DoR+yx5i20CehFZKv2Nf51JUnBqEK ZaSeOHD5Jf+dcyrVnMlBDZ2XEQijE0+ylJioMUfz8UewasiklJG4xlDY+P7p9hP2tAEp 77Q+71tQqwifM0MrJBZaYYCZpX33IjkJCgLp5yP1vyK7v1oZr2QXzh6Hw8Cf3afAzHDz 9IRZnu+lS/F7BOisa4McNypL0/o6gIZQ43ALNbetbu07+ifyyJ90LGZ3BMi026aELWB/ N+2Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=zQ2rkobH08OxWqX025Bp/OvPZpEqPyuR6yedaAJNg8Y=; b=ocC1g6fm+LyDKU3Csf+H6vd3BQqiH8gOg3mbUkaCCKtJTuZLWsJJ5seTNtHV11VA1U PqB7qwxmDpk/1x3/cHB8a7QH1kZ5CNcm8KMegpFQxVNg5G1MChpcxisHb9jGgUrNTtFn lhi7VT7lt3TSdnSsaMLL5OGWYu15g/mCeFGwRNSMEQ31upbVMwHkpOjVtpxmt31Fvuof Kg+/6lve8XjEBalLvB5Jp7SJVikM9/s2TcV7vrUucE5CzXDn3CA767OdswFnK1vdv9a3 qCv33ohoffCpqeykbiK/RlHg9kz4J9FnwxMW8yQB7BQILoxfRoh1yI4baUyajGU2ihoj //pw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530rOIeG77TdPNoYxOaz5k7VbPQnCfaMEhaAouTMpgbCf84i6sP1 FxrEluFzas+Pj7dz1MHCKGpQ1hCgS0ADOsz8fEZnTVqO X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzqYIk4CxeICGkS+ALAkOU4KiCyzh4Hie4REXSXTXsZQlNonT3WvynrGLYix7RZA9AQ6wRysn5ogl4eXtosQ4k= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:3314:: with SMTP id d20mr943123ljc.23.1604679460826; Fri, 06 Nov 2020 08:17:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 08:17:29 -0800 Message-ID: To: James Guichard Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003db3c305b3728da9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] WG Adoption Call for https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2020 16:17:46 -0000 --0000000000003db3c305b3728da9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Chairs of the SPRING and IPPM WGs, Authors, et al., I've found myself in the situation when two related drafts are in the WG APs in the SPRING and IPPM WG (with the possibility that expertise from the third WG, BFD WG, might be desirable to review the "liveness monitoring"). Because these drafts are closely related, I've decided to combine my questions and comments in a single thread. I hope that would be acceptable and considered by the SPRING WG as well as IPPM WG. Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluated by answers to these three questions: - Is the document(s) reasonably well-written It was a surprise finding out that both drafts don't use the terminology from RFC 8762 STAMP and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", are used in the documents without proper definitions. Other than that, both drafts are readable. - Does the document solve a real problem? No, it appears that the changes described in these drafts are only to achieve in-band collection of counters of "in-profile" packets. Firstly, drafts don't provide any arguments about why such collection should be performed using the in-band method rather than using the out-of-band collection approach. Secondly, even if there are any benefits of in-band collection, that can be more easily achieved by extending other OAM, e.g., ICMP, tools. - Is the proposed solution technically viable? There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced by the protocol on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the proposed solution. draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm - Can you define a Link and how it is different from an SR Path? - It is not clear how the destination UDP port numbers are selected. Does the draft change procedure defined in Section 4.1 RFC 8762? - It is not clear what "the congruent path" means. The definition of the congruent in geometry tells that a congruent object has the same shape and size, but is allowed to flip, slide or turn. How a path can be congruent to another path? - An example of the provisional model is Section 3.1 seems well-suited for a YANG data model. What changes to the STAMP YANG data model defined in draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang proposed in these drafts? - In Section 4.1 noted that The probe messages defined in [RFC8762] are used for delay measurement for Links and end-to-end SR Paths including SR Policies. For loss measurement, the probe messages defined in [I-D.gandhi-ippm- stamp-srpm] are used. It necessary to point that RFC 8762 support packet delay and packet loss measurements in the same test session using test packets defined in the STAMP base specification. I believe that the need yet for another method to perform the loss measurement is not sufficiently demonstrated and does appear as duplication of functionality already available in STAMP. - Could you expand on the reasoning why in Section 4.1.1.1 stated that A separate user-configured destination UDP port is used for the delay measurement in authentication mode due to the different probe message format. I cannot find similar requirement in RFC 8762 and would appreciate a technical explanation of the choice made in this specification. - Section 4.2.1 refers to Sender Control Code (though it is defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. Could you explain why it is important to inform the Session-Reflector that the reflected test packet be sent out-of-band? What if only in-band return path is available? Would the Session-Reflector discard test packets in such situation? - I got confused by the following in Section 4.2.2 In two-way measurement mode, when using a bidirectional path, the probe response message as defined in Figure 6 is sent back to the sender node on the congruent path of the data traffic on the same reverse direction Link or associated reverse SR Policy [I-D.ietf-pce-sr-bidir-path]. If a Path Segment SID associated with the test session, there seems no need to require the Session-Reflector look for in-band path. Would you agree? - How's the method described in Section 4.2.3 is different from the method described in RFC 8403 ? What is distinctly unique about the loopback mode proposed in the section? Is the "liveness monitoring" functionally identical to path continuity monitoring provided by BFD? - It appears that second and third paragraphs on Section 4.3.1 contradict with the first paragraph. Need to point that RFC 8762 does not specify the value set in TTL/Hop Limit field, thus reference in the first paragraph seems misleading. I couldn't find ::FFFF:127/104 range being mentioned in the draft. Could you clarify when it is used? - Section 4.3.3 states that a zero-value UDP checksum may be used in some scenarios. RFC 8085 allows that but in very specific cases that are documented in detail in Section 3.4.1. Do you believe that the case of this protocol checks all the requirements for allowing the use of Zero UDP checksum as specified in RFC 8085? Also, I believe that allowing the use of Zero UDP checksum in some scenarios, this protocol introduces a security threat that must be thoroughly analyzed in the Security Considerations section. - Section 7, as I understand it, suggests that performance measurement can be combined with "liveness monitoring", i.e.path continuity monitoring. How fast path failure detection you expect in such combination? How it is comparable to the the failure detection time guaranteed using BFD? draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm - Introduction states that The STAMP message with a TLV for "direct measurement" can be used for combined Delay + Loss measurement [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv]. In fact, that is not accurate. RFC 8762 which provides the base specification of the STAMP protocol already supports packet delay and packet loss (a.k.a. synthetic packet loss) measurement. - Further, the draft concludes that However, in order to use only for loss measurement purpose, it requires the node to support the delay measurement messages and support timestamp for these messages (which may also require clock synchronization). I disagree that the the clock synchronization is required for STAMP. It is recommended for one-way delay measurement but even without the clock synchronization STAMP supports the round-trip delay measurement and one-way delay variation can be calculated. - The conclusion on Introduction is, in my view, misleading as the proposed solution is not an extension of STAMP but update of RFC 8762. And since this is changes the foundation of RFC 8762 that specifies active two-way performance measurement protocol, another method for collecting counters and/or other telemetry information should be sought. For example, ICMP using multi-part message extensions, as defined in RFC 4884 . Regards, Greg On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 5:52 AM James Guichard < james.n.guichard@futurewei.com> wrote: > Dear WG: > > > > This message starts a 3 week WG adoption call for > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03, ending > November 12th 2020. Please note that this document has several changes > from v-02 that were requested by the SPRING and IPPM chairs. For this > reason, the chairs have extended the adoption call for an additional week > to allow the WG enough time to review these changes before deciding on WG > adoption. > > > > Some background: > > > > Several review comments were received previously for document > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-02. The SPRING > and IPPM chairs considered those comments, and upon review of this version > of the document, determined the following: > > > > - The SPRING document should describe only the procedures relevant to > SPRING with pointers to non-SPRING document/s that define any extensions. > Several extensions including* Control Code Field Extension for STAMP > Messages*, *Loss Measurement Query Message Extensions*, *Loss > Measurement Response Message Extensions*, *Node Address TLV Extensions*, > and *Return Path TLV Extensions* were included in > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-02 and > should be removed from the SPRING document. > - The STAMP extensions included in > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-02 should > be described in a new document published in the IPPM WG. > > > > These conclusions were discussed with the authors of > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-02 the result > of which is the publication of the following two documents: > > > > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03. The > subject of this WG adoption call. > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00. This > document will be progressed (if determined by the WG) within the IPPM WG. > > > > After review of the SPRING document please indicate support (or not) for > WG adoption to the mailing list. Please also provide comments/reasons for > that support (or lack thereof) as silence will not be considered as consent. > > > > Finally, the chairs would like to thank the authors for their efforts in > this matter. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Jim, Bruno, & Joel > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --0000000000003db3c305b3728da9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Chairs of the SPRIN= G and IPPM WGs, Authors, et al.,
I've found myself in the situation= when two related drafts are in the WG APs in the SPRING and IPPM WG (with = the possibility that expertise from the third WG, BFD WG, might be desirabl= e to review the "liveness monitoring"). Because these drafts are = closely related, I've decided to combine my questions and comments in a= single thread. I hope that would be acceptable and considered by the SPRIN= G WG as well as IPPM WG.
Usually, the bar for the adoption of a d= ocument can be evaluated=C2=A0by answers to these three questions:
  • Is the document(s) reasonably well-written
<= /div>
=
It was a=C2=A0surprise finding out that both drafts d= on't use the terminology from RFC 8762 STAMP and introduce their own te= rminology for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector.=20 Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", are=20 used in the documents without proper definitions.=20 Other than that, both drafts are readable.
  • = Does the document solve a real problem?
No, it appears that the changes= described in these drafts are only to achieve in-band collection of counte= rs of "in-profile" packets. Firstly, drafts don't provide any= arguments about why such collection should be performed using the in-band = method rather than using the out-of-band collection approach. Secondly, eve= n if there are any benefits of in-band collection, that can be more easily = achieved by extending other OAM, e.g., ICMP, tools.
    Is the proposed solution technically viable?
There are too many unaddr= essed aspects, particularly the risk introduced by the protocol on network = security, to comprehensively evaluate the proposed solution.

draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm
  • Can you define a Link = and how it is different from an SR Path?
  • It is not clear how the de= stination UDP port numbers are selected. Does the draft change procedure de= fined in Section 4.1 RFC 8762?
  • It is not clear what "the congr= uent path" means. The definition of the congruent in geometry tells th= at a congruent object has the same shape and size, but is allowed to flip, = slide or turn. How a path can be congruent to another path?
  • An exam= ple of the provisional model is Section 3.1 seems well-suited for a YANG da= ta model. What changes to the STAMP YANG data model defined in draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang=C2=A0=C2=A0proposed in these drafts?
  • In Section 4.1 noted that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The probe messages def= ined in [RFC8762] are used for delay
=C2=A0 =C2=A0measurement for Links = and end-to-end SR Paths including SR Policies.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0For loss mea= surement, the probe messages defined in [I-D.gandhi-ippm-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0s= tamp-srpm] are used.
It necessary to point that RFC 8762 support pa= cket delay and packet loss measurements in the same test session using test= packets defined in the STAMP base specification. I believe that the need y= et for another method to perform the loss measurement is not sufficiently d= emonstrated and does appear as duplication of functionality already availab= le in STAMP.
  • Could you expand on the reasoning wh= y in Section 4.1.1.1 stated that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0A separate user-conf= igured
=C2=A0 =C2=A0destination UDP port is used for the delay measureme= nt in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0authentication mode due to the different probe messag= e format.
I cannot find similar requirement in RFC 8762 and would a= ppreciate a technical explanation of the choice made in this specification.=
  • Section 4.2.1 refers to Sender Control Code (tho= ugh it is defined in=C2=A0draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. Could you explain w= hy it is important to inform the Session-Reflector that the reflected test = packet be sent out-of-band? What if only in-band return path is available? = Would the Session-Reflector discard test packets in such situation?
    • I got confused by the following in Section 4.2.2
=C2=A0 =C2=A0In = two-way measurement mode, when using a bidirectional path, the
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0probe response message as defined in Figure 6 is sent back to the
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0sender node on the congruent path of the data traffic on the s= ame
=C2=A0 =C2=A0reverse direction Link or associated reverse SR Policy<= br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0[I-D.ietf-pce-sr-bidir-path].
If a Path Segment SID= associated with the test session, there seems no need to require the Sessi= on-Reflector look for in-band path. Would you agree?
    =
  • How's the method described in Section 4.2.3 is different from the m= ethod described in RFC 8403? What is distinctly unique about the loopback mode= proposed in the section?=C2=A0 Is the "liveness monitoring" func= tionally identical to path continuity monitoring provided by BFD?
  • I= t appears that second and third paragraphs on Section 4.3.1 contradict with= the first paragraph. Need to point that RFC 8762 does not specify the valu= e set in TTL/Hop Limit field, thus reference in the first paragraph seems m= isleading. I couldn't find ::FFFF:127/104 range being mentioned in the = draft. Could you clarify when it is used?
  • Section 4.3.3 states that a zero-value UDP checksum may be used in some sce= narios. RFC 8085 allows that but in very specific cases that are documented= in detail in Section 3.4.1. Do you believe that the case of this protocol = checks all the requirements for allowing the use of Zero UDP checksum as sp= ecified in RFC 8085? Also, I believe that allowing the use of Zero UDP chec= ksum in some scenarios, this protocol introduces a security threat that mus= t be thoroughly analyzed in the Security Considerations section.
  • Section 7, as I understand it, suggests that performance measureme= nt can be combined with "liveness monitoring", i.e.path continuit= y monitoring. How fast path failure detection you expect in such combinatio= n? How it is comparable to the the failure detection time guaranteed using = BFD?

draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm
  • Introduction states that
    • =C2=A0 The STAMP message with a TLV = for "direct measurement" can be used for
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0combined= Delay + Loss measurement [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv].
    <= blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px">In fact, tha= t is not accurate. RFC 8762 which provides the base specification of the ST= AMP protocol already supports packet delay and packet loss (a.k.a. syntheti= c packet loss) measurement.
    • Further, the draft conc= ludes that
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0However, in order to use only for loss mea= surement purpose, it
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0requires the node to support the delay= measurement messages and
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0support timestamp for these messa= ges (which may also require clock
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0synchronization).
    I disagree that the the clock synchronization is required for STAMP. It is= recommended for one-way delay measurement but even without the clock synch= ronization STAMP supports the round-trip delay measurement and one-way dela= y variation can be calculated.
    • The conclusion on = Introduction is, in my view, misleading as the proposed solution is not an = extension of STAMP but update of RFC 8762. And since this is changes the fo= undation of RFC 8762 that specifies active two-way performance measurement = protocol, another method for collecting counters and/or other telemetry inf= ormation should be sought. For example, ICMP using multi-part message exten= sions, as defined in RFC 4884.

    Regards,
    Greg

    =

    On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 5:52 AM James Guichard <= ;james.= n.guichard@futurewei.com> wrote:

    Dear WG:

    =C2=A0

    This message starts a 3 week WG adoption call for https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03, ending N= ovember 12th 2020. Please note that this document has several ch= anges from v-02 that were requested by the SPRING and IPPM chairs. For this= reason, the chairs have extended the adoption call for an additional week to allow the WG enough time to re= view these changes before deciding on WG adoption.

    =C2=A0

    Some background: =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    Several review comments were received previously for= document https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm= -02. The SPRING and IPPM chairs considered those comments, = and upon review of this version of the document, determined the following:<= u>

    =C2=A0

    • The SPRING document shou= ld describe only the procedures relevant to SPRING with pointers to non-SPR= ING document/s that define any extensions. Several extensions including Control Code Field Extension for = STAMP Messages,=C2=A0Loss Measurement Query Message Extensions,=C2=A0Loss Measurement Respons= e Message Extensions,=C2=A0Node Address TLV Extensions, and=C2= =A0Return Path TLV Extensions were inclu= ded in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-sta= mp-srpm-02 and should be removed from the SPRING document.
    • The STAMP extensions included in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-sta= mp-srpm-02 should be described in a new document published in the= IPPM WG. =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    These conclusions were discusse= d with the authors of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-sta= mp-srpm-02 the result of which is the publication of the following two = documents:

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    After review of the SPRING docu= ment please indicate support (or not) for WG adoption to the mailing list. Please also provide comments/reasons for that support (or lack= thereof) as silence will not be considered as consent.

    =C2=A0

    Finally, the chairs would like to thank the au= thors for their efforts in this matter.<= u>

    =C2=A0

    Thanks!

    =C2=A0

    Jim, Bruno, & Joel

    _______________________________________________
    spring mailing list
    spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
    --0000000000003db3c305b3728da9-- From nobody Fri Nov 6 08:18:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D37D63A0A71; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 08:17:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nPGiWpYK7RjG; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 08:17:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x129.google.com (mail-lf1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06D6B3A08BB; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 08:17:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x129.google.com with SMTP id z21so1397223lfe.12; Fri, 06 Nov 2020 08:17:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=TtaLkdll6oCrH/Qaa5U2XFz9VE2rtAaPtYJOh4WChJc=; b=ehJwIuzTdLt+z8NlFPhXashQxJZrdDbBWKGkYaRbN4StbU21y7JdkFp0KXWz8URQIb MfaNTThm2m06EeJSQ4WNAB4WX8ldqB/IEnfNiNDaeDRv0GarHzxQ03IZkzcE+GMAjeB+ cMfdnVjSeFtLEk+E05JkqRRqnherD6F9cT2ykbGraJpggYwetAqQ76Qa62TbGzc5BiOC plqmxaqUOe1JQEdKSFMUSBxf15cQTTJq00BVgMngGuHwtSJPqcI20nLj0n7KTQa6GqI+ cjy8rb9ZV1jRK+cCD7hRA/oPxpvrFw1g2DOg/6ygdtDy204MwxFo66KS+Hn7lRjAsKsR Fkwg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TtaLkdll6oCrH/Qaa5U2XFz9VE2rtAaPtYJOh4WChJc=; b=dTfjbk/2uab9DTUo4T2zznX/A35vT0+imC1bXj6Okit+7T/N4+vr6MxsYzvyku8YP/ eBbnoyOKrymob5djUrK5W9LrIQYPxZTSBgdZ/WdkatCefOf8j0m/0CMHa18uwupkI9t4 u94EcDZDowJxkUeaAimLCK94gwhejg0yyaHUmmB11wsWAP3a9S8oZF8PU9XzYfgbun0k BWCRRRgaIU7FUJJmtDqn4BuUOUXKFx4x5Ii4TU3b/r++wAtsCw5shhppLuOhSvy/DN2G I/cF1Qeuhi3aNenSuX1b1yDjiJpvDkk/Ox3yHuU5b8lZFZWPmmVdueLHFbS7G/Xe+iai FRlw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533WriqH8K8XhfqIQv1MGCaPbCKQ9psSMf+45W9lapS/ROebV1Il Ut2eg2XBzW49DqY5/YBPKpuVECToX5RklaRO1fO++ejT X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwJd6IhcR9rDUT61C574/4TewY3myT4yE5MmlaTIDTPWvRQ1SCWzZ0pvstv/KHx0OoSCT3WicWGIjygoJB46ho= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:36c5:: with SMTP id e5mr1093204lfs.433.1604679469805; Fri, 06 Nov 2020 08:17:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 08:17:39 -0800 Message-ID: To: James Guichard Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c6b55105b3728dcb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] WG Adoption Call for https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2020 16:18:02 -0000 --000000000000c6b55105b3728dcb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Chairs of the SPRING and IPPM WGs, Authors, et al., I've found myself in the situation when two related drafts are in the WG APs in the SPRING and IPPM WG (with the possibility that expertise from the third WG, BFD WG, might be desirable to review the "liveness monitoring"). Because these drafts are closely related, I've decided to combine my questions and comments in a single thread. I hope that would be acceptable and considered by the SPRING WG as well as IPPM WG. Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluated by answers to these three questions: - Is the document(s) reasonably well-written I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology from RFC 4656 and 5357 and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", are used in the documents without proper definitions. Other than that both drafts are readable and reasonably well-written. - Does the document solve a real problem? No, it appears that these drafts define a new performance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP and TWAMP functionality and adding the ability to collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find sufficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing OAM mechanisms like ICMP. - Is the proposed solution technically viable? There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced by the protocol on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the proposed solution. To summarize my review of these two drafts: - these propose a new protocol, not an update or enhancement of the TWAMP-like protocol; - several parts of the proposed protocol, e.g., Zero UDP checksum in IPv6, require detailed security analysis, which is currently absent; - I was surprised to find out that draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm is on the Informational track even though it is essential to the new protocol as it defines its key elements - I believe that draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm should be anchored at IPPM WG as it does introduce the new PM protocol. Below, please find my detailed comments, questions on these drafts: - draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm I have several questions about the relationships between this draft and Appendix I in RFC 5357 where the idea of a mode known as TWAMP Light has been mentioned. The nature of the TWAMP Light and what is required to make it a standard is well-explained in Section 4 of RFC 8545 (apologies for the long quote): "TWAMP Light" is an idea described in Appendix I ("TWAMP Light (Informative)") of [RFC5357]; TWAMP Light includes an unspecified control protocol combined with the TWAMP-Test protocol. In [RFC5357], the TWAMP Light idea was relegated to Appendix I because TWAMP Light failed to meet the requirements for IETF protocols (there are no specifications for negotiating this form of operation and no specifications for mandatory-to-implement security features), as described in Appendix A of this memo. See also [LarsAD] and [TimDISCUSS]. Since the idea of TWAMP Light clearly includes the TWAMP-Test component of TWAMP, it is considered reasonable for future systems to use the TWAMP-Test well-known UDP port (whose reallocated assignment is specified in this document). Clearly, the TWAMP Light idea envisions many components and communication capabilities beyond TWAMP-Test (implementing the security requirements, for example); otherwise, Appendix I of [RFC5357] would be one sentence long (equating TWAMP Light with TWAMP-Test only). Since we don't have an IETF document that addressed these open questions, I don't think we can have a draft that proposes extensions to a non-standard mechanism (Appendix is for Informational material, as I understand it) on the Standard track. Now a number of more specific questions. draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm: - In the Introduction it is stated that: The TWAMP Light [Appendix I in RFC5357] [BBF.TR-390] provides simplified mechanisms for active performance measurement in Customer IP networks by provisioning UDP paths and eliminates the need for control-channel signaling. I can not find where, either Appendix I or TR-390, "eliminated the need for control-channel signaling". Also, could you point where the referenced documents describe "provisioning UDP paths"? - It appears that the last paragraph in the Introduction describes the relationship with Appendix I of RFC 5357: The procedure uses the mechanisms defined in [RFC5357] (TWAMP Light) and its extensions for Performance Measurement. I think that the reference must be to Appendix I, not RFC 5357. Also, could you please specify which extensions of TWAMP Light have been used in this draft? - In Section 2.3 describing the reference model is noted: The probe response message is typically sent to the sender node R1. In which scenarios the reflector acts differently? How such behavior is related to the behavior of a TWAMP Session-Reflector, as defined in RFC 5357? - Also in Section 2.3 a Link is mentioned as an element directly connecting nodes in the presented reference model. Could you clarify what is a Link? Is it always a physical connection between two systems or a virtual? - In Section 3 behavior of the reflector described as ... no PM state for delay or loss measurement need to be created on the reflector node R5. That is in contradiction to the behavior of a TWAMP Session-Reflector as defined in RFC 5357. Could you provide a reference to an IETF standard where this behavior is defined? Also, how, without creating a state at the Session-Reflector, to achieve one-way delay and synthetic loss measurement on a bidirectional SR tunnel? - Further, in Section 3 the selection of UDP port explained as the following: As specified in [RFC8545], the reflector supports the destination UDP port 862 for delay measurement probe messages by default. This UDP port however, is not used for loss measurement probe messages. To the best of my understanding, as one of the contributors and Editors of RFC 8545, it re-allocated UDP port 862 for use by a TWAMP Session-Reflector without excluding any type of measurement. Besides, in TWAMP delay and packet loss are measured in the same test session, using the same flow of TWAMP-Test packets. - Then the draft states that The sender uses the UDP port number following the guidelines specified in Section 6 in [RFC6335]. Could you point to the guidelines that a user can use when selecting a UDP port number of a test session? - At the closing of the paragraph, we read that The number of UDP ports with PM functionality needs to be minimized due to limited hardware resources. Does a UDP port number pose PM functionality? How it is assigned to the port number? - Following the above-quoted text, in Section 3 is noted: For Performance Measurement, probe query and response messages are sent as following: Could you clarify if the listed further procedures deviate from OWAMP/TWAMP or follow procedures defined in RFC 4656 and RFC 5357 for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector respectively? - for both delay and loss measurements draft requires test packet be transmitted on a congruent path: the probe messages are sent on the congruent path of the data traffic by the sender node It is not clear what "the congruent path" means. The definition of congruency in geometry tells us that an object B is congruent to object A if it has the same shape and size, but is allowed to flip, slide or turn. How a path can be congruent to another path? - The last paragraph in Section 3 refers to work on iOAM: The In-Situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (IOAM) mechanisms for SR-MPLS defined in [I-D.gandhi-mpls-ioam-sr] and for SRv6 defined in [I-D.ali-spring-ioam-srv6] are used to carry PM information such as timestamp in-band as part of the data packets, and are outside the scope of this document. Is iOAM in the scope of this specification? What are the relationships between iOAM and draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm? - Section 3.1 presents an example of the provisioning model but puts the definition of the provisioning model outside the scope. Is there an accompanying specification that defines the provisioning model that can be used in multi-vendor deployment? Could that be YANG data model? What is the relationship with draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang ? Would the TWAMP YANG data model be augmented? - Section 4.1 states that a new message is introduced to perform the Loss Measurement in this protocol Why the capability of TWAMP to measure the loss in one-way and two-way is not sufficient? - Section 4.1.1 requires that The Destination UDP port cannot be used as Source port, since the message does not have any indication to distinguish between the query and response message. Does that imply that the Destination UDP port used for the Delay measurement is unique throughout the particular domain? - Section 4.1.2 of RFC 5357 does not define "the delay measurement message" but refers to the definition of the Session-Sender's test packet in RFC 4656 OWAMP. Note, that OWAMP and TWAMP are using a single test packet format to perform both delay and packet loss measurement. - Can you explain how "the DM probe query message contains the payload format defined in Section 4.2.1 of [RFC5357]" when the referenced section of RFC 5357 defines the format of a Session-Reflector's test packet? - Can clarify the applicability of RFC 6038 and the symmetrical packet size? Is it required? Can it be non-symmetrical? - Can you clarify the use of the timestamp format, NTP or PTPv2? It is not clear which is the default, mandatory or optional. - Also, is "hardware support in Segment Routing networks" of the PTPv2 format required, guaranteed, or something else? - Section 4.1.1.1 stated that A separate user-configured destination UDP port is used for the delay measurement in authentication mode due to the different probe message format. Can that be interpreted that there could be concurrent authenticated and unauthenticated test sessions using this protocol? Would different authentication methods require using unique destination UDP port numbers? - Section 4.1.2 by introducing the dedicated Loss measurement packet format, effectively modifies the behavior defined in RFC 5357 for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. But the document does not state that. Can you clarify whether this specification changes the behavior of a Session-Sender and Session-Reflector as defined in RFC 4656 and RFC 5357 respectively for the support of packet loss measurement? - And a similar question about the use of the separate UDP port number for the authenticated of the packet loss measurement. - A couple of question to the following text in Section 4.1.3: The local and remote IP addresses of the link are used as Source and Destination Addresses. They can also be IPv6 link local address as probe messages are pre- routed. - What are the addresses of a link? - In which scenarios an IPv6 LLA can be used? - Also, could the use of a routable destination IP address be used as a DDOS attack vector? Consider the scenario when an attacker generates SR-encapsulated packets with the destination IP address other than any of the SR-terminating nodes. Such a packet will be routed, correct? That does appear as a security threat, would you agree? - Section 4.1.4.2 references Figure 5 that, as I understand it, displays the format of a probe query message. In figure two references to RFC 5357 are provided - a section that references RFC 4656 OWAMP definition of the Session-Sender test packet, and a section that defines the Session-Reflector's reflected packet. Which of the two is used for the delay measurement in the proposed protocol? - Section 4.2.1 states that In one-way measurement mode, the probe response message as defined in Figure 6 is sent back out-of-band to the sender node ... Could you clarify how the responder controls that the response packet is sent not in-band but out-of-band? - How's the method described in Section 4.2.3 is different from the method described in RFC 8403 ? What is distinctly unique about the loopback mode proposed in the section? - What is the rationale for setting TTL/Hop Limit fields always to 255 for IPv4, MPLS, and IPv6 (per Section 4.3.1)? - Section 4.3.3 states that a zero-value UDP checksum may be used in some scenarios. RFC 8085 allows that but in very specific cases that are documented in detail in Section 3.4.1. Do you believe that the case of this protocol checks all the requirements for allowing the use of Zero UDP checksum as specified in RFC 8085? Also, I believe that allowing the use of Zero UDP checksum in some scenarios, this protocol introduces a security threat that must be thoroughly analyzed in the Security Considerations section. - Section 8 refers to "liveness monitoring of Links and SR Paths". This appears as the replication of functionality provided by BFD/S-BFD protocols. Is such comparison accurate? If it is, shouldn't the proposal be also reviewed by the BFD WG? - I found the Security Section of the proposed protocol inadequately terse and missing very important threats that this protocol introduces in the network. - draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm As I understand it, the motivation for the Loss Measurement mode defined in this specification is to collect "in-profile" counters. Is that correct? Do you see as essential for this mode that the query messages are in-band with the flow being profiled? In your opinion, how using an out-of-band method of collecting these counters, e.g., by using ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884, could affect the accuracy comparing with the method in this protocol? How the impact changes if extended ICMP messages are in-band with the profiled flow? - Section 3.1 introduces the new field, Sender Control Code. The format of the packet, as I understand it, is presented in Figure 1. When comparing with the format of Session-Sender's test packet defined in RFC 4656 OWAMP in Section 4.1.2 I've noticed that there are no MBZ fields. Are these introduced by your proposal? - Also, it appears that the Sequence Number field in TWAMP Session-Sender's test packet is absent in Figure 1. Is that intentional? Regards, Greg On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 5:51 AM James Guichard < james.n.guichard@futurewei.com> wrote: > Dear WG: > > > > This message starts a 3 week WG adoption call for document > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 ending > November 12th 2020. Please note that this document has several changes > from v-10 that were requested by the SPRING and IPPM chairs. For this > reason, the chairs have extended the adoption call for an additional week > to allow the WG enough time to review these changes before deciding on WG > adoption. > > > > Some background: > > > > Several review comments were received previously for document > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10. The SPRING > and IPPM chairs considered those comments, and upon review of this version > of the document, determined the following: > > > > - The SPRING document should describe only the procedures relevant to > SPRING with pointers to non-SPRING document/s that define any extensions. > Several extensions including *Control Code Field Extension for TWAMP > Light Messages*, *Loss Measurement Query Message Extensions*, and *Loss > Measurement Response Message Extensions *were included in > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10 and > should be removed from the SPRING document. > - The TWAMP extensions included in > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10 should > be described in a new document published in the IPPM WG. > > > > These conclusions were discussed with the authors of > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10 the result > of which is the publication of the following two documents: > > > > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11. The > subject of this WG adoption call. > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00. This > document will be progressed (if determined by the WG) within the IPPM WG. > > > > After review of the SPRING document please indicate support (or not) for > WG adoption to the mailing list. Please also provide comments/reasons for > that support (or lack thereof) as silence will not be considered as consent. > > > > Finally, the chairs would like to thank the authors for their efforts in > this matter. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Jim, Bruno, & Joel > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --000000000000c6b55105b3728dcb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Dear Chairs of the SPRIN= G and IPPM WGs, Authors, et al.,
    I've found myself in the situation= when two related drafts are in the WG APs in the SPRING and IPPM WG (with = the possibility that expertise from the third WG, BFD WG, might be desirabl= e to review the "liveness monitoring"). Because these drafts are = closely related, I've decided to combine my questions and comments in a= single thread. I hope that would be acceptable and considered by the SPRIN= G WG as well as IPPM WG.
    Usually, the bar for the adoption of a d= ocument can be evaluated=C2=A0by answers to these three questions:
    • Is the document(s) reasonably well-written
    <= /div>
    I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the te= rminology from RFC 4656 and 5357 and introduce their own terminology for Se= ssion-Sender and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "co= ngruent paths", are=20 used in the documents without proper definitions. Other than that both draf= ts are readable and reasonably well-written.
      Does the document solve a real problem?
    No, it appears that these drafts de= fine a new performance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OW= AMP and TWAMP functionality and adding the ability to collect counters of &= quot;in-profile" packets. I couldn't find sufficient technical arg= uments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the exist= ing OAM mechanisms like ICMP.
    • Is the proposed solut= ion technically viable?
    There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly = the risk introduced by the protocol on network security, to comprehensively= evaluate the proposed solution.

    To summarize my review of=C2=A0these two drafts:
    • these propose a new protocol, not an update or enhancement = of the TWAMP-like protocol;
    • several parts of the proposed protocol,= e.g., Zero UDP checksum in IPv6, require detailed security analysis, which= is currently absent;
    • I was surprised to find out that=C2=A0draft-g= andhi-ippm-twamp-srpm is on the Informational track even though it is essen= tial to the new protocol as it defines its key elements
    • I believe t= hat=C2=A0draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm should be anchored at IPPM WG as it= does introduce the new PM protocol.
    Below, please find my detaile= d=C2=A0comments, questions on these drafts:
    • draft-gandhi-= spring-twamp-srpm
    I have several questions about the re= lationships between this draft and Appendix I in RFC 5357 where the idea of= a mode known as TWAMP Light has been mentioned. The nature of the TWAMP Li= ght and what is required to make it a standard is well-explained in Section= 4 of=C2=A0RFC 8545=C2=A0(apologies for the long quote):
    =C2=A0 = =C2=A0"TWAMP Light" is an idea described in Appendix I ("TWA= MP Light
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0(Informative)") of [RFC5357]; TWAMP Light inc= ludes an unspecified
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0control protocol combined with the TWA= MP-Test protocol.=C2=A0 In
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC5357], the TWAMP Light idea = was relegated to Appendix I because
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0TWAMP Light failed to m= eet the requirements for IETF protocols (there
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0are no speci= fications for negotiating this form of operation and no
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0spe= cifications for mandatory-to-implement security features), as
    =C2=A0 =C2= =A0described in Appendix A of this memo.=C2=A0 See also [LarsAD] and
    =C2= =A0 =C2=A0[TimDISCUSS].

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0Since the idea of TWAMP Light c= learly includes the TWAMP-Test
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0component of TWAMP, it is co= nsidered reasonable for future systems to
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0use the TWAMP-Tes= t well-known UDP port (whose reallocated assignment
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0is spec= ified in this document).=C2=A0 Clearly, the TWAMP Light idea
    =C2=A0 =C2= =A0envisions many components and communication capabilities beyond
    =C2= =A0 =C2=A0TWAMP-Test (implementing the security requirements, for example);=
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0otherwise, Appendix I of [RFC5357] would be one sentence l= ong
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0(equating TWAMP Light with TWAMP-Test only).
    <= div>
    Since we don't have an IETF document that addressed = these open questions, I don't think we can have a draft that proposes e= xtensions to a non-standard mechanism (Appendix is for Informational materi= al, as I understand it) on the Standard track.
    Now a number of mo= re specific questions.
    draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm:
    <= div>
    • In the Introduction it is stated that:
    =C2=A0 The TWAM= P Light [Appendix I in RFC5357] [BBF.TR-390] provides
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0simpl= ified mechanisms for active performance measurement in Customer
    =C2=A0 = =C2=A0IP networks by provisioning UDP paths and eliminates the need for
    = =C2=A0 =C2=A0control-channel signaling.
    I can not=C2=A0find where,= either Appendix I or TR-390, "eliminated the need for control-channel= signaling". Also, could you point where the referenced documents desc= ribe "provisioning UDP paths"?
    • It = appears that the last paragraph in the Introduction describes the relations= hip with Appendix I of RFC 5357:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0The procedure uses t= he mechanisms defined in [RFC5357]
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0(TWAMP Light) and its ex= tensions for Performance Measurement.
    I think that the refere= nce must be to Appendix I, not RFC 5357. Also, could you please specify whi= ch extensions of TWAMP Light have been used in this draft?
    • In Section 2.3 describing the reference model is noted:
    = =C2=A0 =C2=A0The probe response message is typically sent to the sender nod= e R1.
    In which scenarios the reflector acts differently? How = such behavior is related to the behavior of a TWAMP Session-Reflector, as d= efined in RFC 5357?
    • Also in Section 2.3 a Link is= mentioned as an element directly connecting nodes in the presented referen= ce model. Could you clarify what is a Link? Is it always a physical connect= ion between two systems or a virtual?
    • In Section 3 behavior of the = reflector described as
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0... no PM state for delay or l= oss measurement need to be created on the
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0reflector node R5= .
    That is in contradiction to the behavior of a TWAMP Session-Ref= lector as defined in RFC 5357. Could you provide a reference to an IETF sta= ndard where this behavior is defined? Also, how, without creating a state a= t the Session-Reflector, to achieve one-way delay and synthetic loss measur= ement on a bidirectional SR tunnel?
    • Further, in S= ection 3 the selection of UDP port explained as the following:
    =C2= =A0 =C2=A0As specified in [RFC8545], the reflector
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0supports= the destination UDP port 862 for delay measurement probe
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0m= essages by default.=C2=A0 This UDP port however, is not used for loss
    = =C2=A0 =C2=A0measurement probe messages.
    To the best of my unders= tanding, as one of the contributors and=C2=A0Editors of RFC 8545, it re-all= ocated UDP port 862 for use by a TWAMP Session-Reflector without excluding = any type of measurement. Besides, in TWAMP delay and packet loss are measur= ed in the same test session, using the same flow of TWAMP-Test packets.
    • Then the draft states that
    The sender uses = the UDP port number following the guidelines specified in Section 6 in [RFC= 6335].
    Could you point to the guidelines that a user can use when= selecting a UDP port number of a test session?
    • A= t the closing of the paragraph, we read that
    =C2=A0 The number of = UDP ports with PM functionality needs to be minimized due
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0t= o limited hardware resources.
    Does a UDP port number pose PM func= tionality? How it is assigned to the port number?
      Following the above-quoted text, in Section 3 is noted:
    =C2=A0 = =C2=A0For Performance Measurement, probe query and response messages are=C2=A0 =C2=A0sent as following:
    Could you clarify if the listed = further procedures deviate from OWAMP/TWAMP or follow procedures defined in= RFC 4656 and RFC 5357 for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector respectivel= y?
    • for both delay and loss measurements draft req= uires test packet be transmitted on a congruent path:
    =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 the probe messages are sent on the
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 congr= uent path of the data traffic by the sender node
    It is not clear what "the congruent path" means. The definition o= f=C2=A0congruency in geometry tells us that an object B is congruent=C2=A0t= o object A if it has the same shape and size, but is allowed to flip, slide= or turn. How a path can be congruent to another path?
    • The last paragraph in Section 3 refers to work o= n iOAM:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0The In-Situ Operations, Administration, and M= aintenance (IOAM)
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0mechanisms for SR-MPLS defined in [I-D.ga= ndhi-mpls-ioam-sr] and for
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0SRv6 defined in [I-D.ali-spring-= ioam-srv6] are used to carry PM
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0information such as timesta= mp in-band as part of the data packets,
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0and are outside the= scope of this document.
    Is iOAM in the scope of this specificati= on? What are the relationships between iOAM and=C2=A0draft-gandhi-spring-tw= amp-srpm?
    • Section 3.1 presents an example of the = provisioning model but puts the definition of the provisioning model outsid= e the scope. Is there an accompanying specification that defines the provis= ioning model that can be used in multi-vendor deployment? Could that be YAN= G data model? What is the relationship with=C2=A0draft-ietf-ip= pm-twamp-yang? Would the TWAMP YANG data model be augmented?
    • Se= ction 4.1 states that a new message is introduced to perform the Loss Measu= rement in this protocol Why the capability of TWAMP to measure the loss in = one-way and two-way is not sufficient?
    • Section 4.1.1 requires that<= /li>
    =C2=A0 The Destination UDP port cannot be used as Source port, sin= ce
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0the message does not have any indication to distinguish = between the
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0query and response message.
    Does that imply that the Destination UDP port used for the Delay measure= ment is unique throughout the particular domain?
    • = Section 4.1.2 of RFC 5357 does not define "the delay measurement messa= ge" but refers to the definition of the Session-Sender's test pack= et in RFC 4656 OWAMP. Note, that OWAMP and TWAMP are using a single test pa= cket format to perform both delay and packet loss measurement.
    • Can = you explain how "the DM probe query message contains the payload forma= t defined in Section 4.2.1 of [RFC5357]" when the referenced section o= f RFC 5357 defines the format of a Session-Reflector's test packet?
    • Can clarify the applicability of RFC 6038 and the symmetrical packet s= ize? Is it required? Can it be non-symmetrical?
    • Can you clarify the= use of the timestamp format, NTP or PTPv2? It is not clear which is the de= fault, mandatory or optional.
    • Also, is "hardware support in Se= gment Routing networks" of the PTPv2 format required, guaranteed, or s= omething else?
    • Section 4.1.1.1 stated that
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0A = separate user-configured
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0destination UDP port is used for t= he delay measurement in
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0authentication mode due to the diff= erent probe message format.
    Can that be interpreted that there co= uld be concurrent authenticated and unauthenticated test sessions using thi= s protocol? Would different authentication methods require using unique des= tination UDP port numbers?
    • Section 4.1.2 by introduci= ng the dedicated Loss measurement packet format, effectively modifies the b= ehavior defined in RFC 5357 for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. But t= he document does not state that. Can you clarify whether this specification= changes the behavior of a Session-Sender and Session-Reflector as defined = in RFC 4656 and RFC 5357 respectively for the support of packet loss measur= ement?
    • And a similar question about the use of the separate UDP por= t number for the authenticated of the packet loss measurement.
    • A co= uple of question to the following text in Section 4.1.3:
    =C2=A0 = =C2=A0The local and remote IP
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0addresses of the link are use= d as Source and Destination Addresses.
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0They can also be IPv= 6 link local address as probe messages are pre-
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0routed.
    =
      • What are the addresses of a link?
      • In which s= cenarios an IPv6 LLA can be used?
      • Also, could the use of a routable= destination IP address be used as a DDOS attack vector? Consider the scena= rio when an attacker generates SR-encapsulated packets with the destination= IP address other than any of the SR-terminating nodes. Such=C2=A0a=C2=A0pa= cket will be routed, correct? That does appear as a security threat, would = you agree?
    • Section 4.1.4.2 references Figure 5 that, as I unde= rstand it, displays the=C2=A0format of a probe query message. In figure two= references to RFC 5357 are provided - a section that references RFC 4656 O= WAMP definition of the Session-Sender test packet, and a section that defin= es the Session-Reflector's reflected packet. Which of the two is used f= or the delay measurement in the proposed protocol?
    • Section 4.2.1 st= ates that
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0In one-way measurement mode, the probe resp= onse message as defined in
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0Figure 6 is sent back out-of-ban= d to the sender node ...
    Could you clarify how the responder = controls that the response packet is sent not in-band but out-of-band?
    • How's the method described in Section 4.2.3 is di= fferent from the method described in RFC 8403? What is distinctly unique about t= he loopback mode proposed in the section?
    • What is the rationale for= setting TTL/Hop Limit fields always to 255 for IPv4, MPLS, and IPv6 (per S= ection 4.3.1)?
    • Section 4.3.3 states that a zero-value UDP checksum = may be used in some scenarios. RFC 8085 allows that but in very specific ca= ses that are documented in detail in Section 3.4.1. Do you believe that the= case of this protocol checks all the requirements for allowing the use of = Zero UDP checksum as specified in RFC 8085? Also, I believe that allowing t= he use of Zero UDP checksum in some scenarios, this protocol introduces a s= ecurity threat that must be thoroughly analyzed in the Security Considerati= ons section.
    • Section 8 refers to "liveness monitoring of Links= and SR Paths". This appears as the replication of functionality provi= ded by BFD/S-BFD protocols. Is such comparison accurate? If it is, shouldn&= #39;t the proposal be also reviewed by the BFD WG?
    • I found the Secu= rity Section of the proposed protocol inadequately terse and missing very i= mportant threats that this protocol introduces in the network.

    • draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm
    As I und= erstand it, the motivation for the Loss Measurement mode defined in this sp= ecification is to collect "in-profile" counters. Is that correct?= Do you see as essential for this mode that the query messages are in-band = with the flow being profiled? In your opinion, how using an out-of-band met= hod of collecting these counters, e.g., by using ICMP multi-part=C2=A0messa= ge extension per RFC 4884, could affect the accuracy comparing with the met= hod in this protocol? How the impact changes if extended ICMP messages are = in-band with the profiled flow?
    • Section 3.1 introduces the new f= ield, Sender Control Code. The format of the packet, as I understand it, is= presented in Figure 1. When comparing with the format of Session-Sender= 9;s test packet defined in RFC 4656 OWAMP in Section 4.1.2 I've noticed= that there are no MBZ fields. Are these introduced by your proposal?
      • <= li>Also, it appears that the Sequence Number field in TWAMP Session-Sender&= #39;s test packet is absent in Figure 1. Is that intentional?

    Regards,
    Greg

    =

    = On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 5:51 AM James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com<= /a>> wrote:

    Dear WG:

    =C2=A0

    This message starts a 3 week WG adoption call for do= cument https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 ending No= vember 12th 2020. Please note that this document has several cha= nges from v-10 that were requested by the SPRING and IPPM chairs. For this = reason, the chairs have extended the adoption call for an additional week to allow the WG enough time to re= view these changes before deciding on WG adoption.

    =C2=A0

    Some background: =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    Several review comments were received previously for= document https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm= -10. The SPRING and IPPM chairs considered those comments, = and upon review of this version of the document, determined the following:<= u>

    =C2=A0

    • The SPRING document shou= ld describe only the procedures relevant to SPRING with pointers to non-SPR= ING document/s that define any extensions. Several extensions including Control Code Field Extension for TWAMP L= ight Messages,=C2=A0Loss Measurement Query Message Extensions, and=C2=A0Loss Measurement Res= ponse Message Extensions were included in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-t= wamp-srpm-10 and should be removed from the SPRING document.
    • The TWAMP extensions included in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twa= mp-srpm-10 should be described in a new document published in the= IPPM WG. =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    These conclusions were discusse= d with the authors of =C2=A0https://tools.iet= f.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10 the result of which is the= publication of the following two documents:

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    After review of the SPRING docu= ment please indicate support (or not) for WG adoption to the mailing list. Please also provide comments/reasons for that support (or lack= thereof) as silence will not be considered as consent.

    =C2=A0

    Finally, the chairs would like to thank the au= thors for their efforts in this matter.<= u>

    =C2=A0

    Thanks!

    =C2=A0

    Jim, Bruno, & Joel

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    _______________________________________________
    spring mailing list
    spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
    --000000000000c6b55105b3728dcb-- From nobody Fri Nov 6 11:16:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 870E43A0B63; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 11:16:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.091 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.091 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nzdkXzjrTosa; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 11:15:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-aaemail-lapp03.apple.com (nwk-aaemail-lapp03.apple.com [17.151.62.68]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A0FF3A0B62; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 11:15:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (nwk-aaemail-lapp03.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by nwk-aaemail-lapp03.apple.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0A6JEKAA032313; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 11:15:56 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=from : content-type : mime-version : subject : message-id : date : cc : to; s=20180706; bh=4sFkMVMX97X1Gga/8F7N4NdJV1yKM0Z0ySzYMh2MWKo=; b=Gr/e/x+28tDXAAGK88Wjsx6/nR8mQUCAyqMzRPnTqyUPXBJerLmBRs4pMpXWSVF4whBw 1BXAwjxx1isvrKfVWxjadxwS2d0o08NlaI9t4NNpld6V85QtdxSBa5fXNLNV3+T6O1+/ llwmvQqPLh/KV6kzBK/YlJRDZHv/90gstTDE2M+/7Ut8IAyeVzpWI4phCBPoVlaE+KhP 5YHjU3KGhvfzfwNmTIklZpyss1cohCx4RL172y0O4xCJ/qVP7H/gK3cXjSTv20t6mC9T FG5T3IVttm93vHYUJNoDSonoxlc66WYrHdy/WYuk8zf+1EsMbYU0xTBd4IeHyzY2y9Ck ow== Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.149]) by nwk-aaemail-lapp03.apple.com with ESMTP id 34hqmsqkss-11 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 06 Nov 2020 11:15:56 -0800 Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp03.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp03.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.16]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.6.20200729 64bit (built Jul 29 2020)) with ESMTPS id <0QJE00E662UEOS60@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp01.rno.apple.com>; Fri, 06 Nov 2020 11:15:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from process_milters-daemon.rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp03.rno.apple.com by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp03.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.6.20200729 64bit (built Jul 29 2020)) id <0QJE006000AMFO00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp03.rno.apple.com>; Fri, 06 Nov 2020 11:15:51 -0800 (PST) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: de279c0840622e930446fe69a11c94de X-Va-E-CD: df66c4acd6823b38adc7db52c6de289b X-Va-R-CD: 32dd78f49bcaf832cc4c14931ebb8adb X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: 662dd443-6e94-4cd7-8002-68de3409c423 X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: de279c0840622e930446fe69a11c94de X-V-E-CD: df66c4acd6823b38adc7db52c6de289b X-V-R-CD: 32dd78f49bcaf832cc4c14931ebb8adb X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: cb7c0b25-68ec-4277-9d07-65fb4781aedc X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.312, 18.0.737 definitions=2020-11-06_06:2020-11-05, 2020-11-06 signatures=0 Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown [17.232.187.87]) by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp03.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.6.20200729 64bit (built Jul 29 2020)) with ESMTPSA id <0QJE002802UC5000@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp03.rno.apple.com>; Fri, 06 Nov 2020 11:15:50 -0800 (PST) From: Tommy Pauly Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B9C2C47C-9EB2-4A14-8685-244BF1DAB798" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.0.3.2.26\)) Message-id: Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2020 11:15:47 -0800 Cc: IPPM Chairs To: "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.0.3.2.26) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.312, 18.0.737 definitions=2020-11-06_06:2020-11-05, 2020-11-06 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] IETF 109 IPPM Agenda X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2020 19:16:02 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B9C2C47C-9EB2-4A14-8685-244BF1DAB798 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hello IPPM, We=E2=80=99ve posted our initial agenda for IETF 109: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/109/agenda/agenda-109-ippm-00 = We=E2=80=99ll be covering some existing WG drafts, the drafts currently = in call-for-adoption, and some drafts that are also candidates for = adoption. It will be a full agenda! If you are listed as a presenter, please upload your slides as PDF to = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/session/ippm = by Friday, = November 13. Also, a brief reminder to chime in on the current calls-for-adoption if = you have not already: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang = Best, Tommy= --Apple-Mail=_B9C2C47C-9EB2-4A14-8685-244BF1DAB798 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hello= IPPM,

    We=E2=80=99ve = posted our initial agenda for IETF 109:

    https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/109/agenda/agenda-109-ippm-00<= /a>

    We=E2=80=99l= l be covering some existing WG drafts, the drafts currently in = call-for-adoption, and some drafts that are also candidates for = adoption. It will be a full agenda!

    If you are listed as a presenter, = please upload your slides as PDF to https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/session/ippm = by Friday, November 13.

    Also, a brief reminder to chime in on = the current calls-for-adoption if you have not already:
    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm
    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm
    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monito= ring
    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state=
    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang
    =

    Best,
    Tommy
    = --Apple-Mail=_B9C2C47C-9EB2-4A14-8685-244BF1DAB798-- From nobody Fri Nov 6 13:13:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10E363A0D45 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 13:13:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=nvidia.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iR4djb8DjVrl for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2020 13:13:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from nat-hk.nvidia.com (nat-hk.nvidia.com [203.18.50.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D05A3A0D43 for ; 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Fri, 6 Nov 2020 21:13:20 +0000 From: Barak Gafni To: ippm Thread-Topic: A new draft with additional fields extending IOAM data draft Thread-Index: Ada0gW58xfytNkRYTd6ieKD5W57/lw== Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 21:13:07 +0000 Deferred-Delivery: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 21:12:59 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=nvidia.com; x-originating-ip: [216.228.112.22] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: ced7dcb3-3744-4fe8-c466-08d88298c9b5 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BY5PR12MB4919: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8273; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: tfedmDEva0oETf9QtMHwpcP0olMtHmNvIRANlG3HO+HhHCld1iSS/GOn1CPdpXNeFPm+oTB4Cwpt6I3glUQwnsrUbYIViVpCvTwlcsL5hdKLSpsoXDQh3FbQpxEUu/10uZZSmps+/KLO5EtFmTBM57A2H+MtHKj+Qv8UF1pzA/nx3lfaKI2MbwW3v40FIkJxRHCv3B47wm4l6plB1YZPBa+4InTgDZOUVD6rGZlsHy0K4tqUoeH0rnq88WbzHyESBcDoNGq1rLHLCPrgTz79t9M03LKNHniqplvAm3uKQcxyu4oiJGMcX6mCqYIAXqq4bS6lXfmCxnWDKi20KES8noSVmcFSVj7x8YFpEjWVk1jxN0sBEr9N0KS2fdLVnB6qphxjP+ONb0YEQNfUngT/zw== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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b=rLfluCknr2dTnYGB+CE3A3HNNegRxouTHCvSoi71F/3PxSqDFr1bXrNBiJRbn2lHD jjznGIKB+SWkWziVLOauC4ilM6VR0W/sZ4H6TTRfv1L4YsMBrJFLQL/9DqylciNvMk Ys2lBnM3XzhjaWDTYlJHLomhzpbMVBO9RPY3p6Nx3S6qosHrYTuBrD9Boo/6kqrIFl 4sOgA/6WBq74Ywg+HfQ89FsnE2+0jNM0EFxHiII9wY5jwWfM8OE4kJuXWVL+aPgZzn jak5y11ICs3DqFlO6DK1jWVGqIZ3d7SU5pPyWRkW9paZuukBskmrHhygfK19ad37qr n88W41waJFOMQ== Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] A new draft with additional fields extending IOAM data draft X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2020 21:13:27 -0000 --_000_BYAPR12MB344676E5D4628096212A414AB4ED0BYAPR12MB3446namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear IPPM WG, We would like to welcome comments and further suggestions on a new draft th= at was recently introduced - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gafni-ippm-i= oam-additional-data-fields-00. As the IOAM data draft is in the process to become an RFC, new use cases we= re introduced, and this new draft is an attempt towards extending the suppo= rt of IOAM. We expect to have a lightning talk to discuss the draft in the coming meeti= ng. We are confident that earlier discussion on the list will help us makin= g this talk better. We would appreciate your comments, Thanks, Barak and the draft authors --_000_BYAPR12MB344676E5D4628096212A414AB4ED0BYAPR12MB3446namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Dear IPPM WG,

     

    We would like to welcome comments and further sugges= tions on a new draft that was recently introduced - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gafni-ippm-ioam-additional-data-fields-00= .

    As the IOAM data draft is in the process to become a= n RFC, new use cases were introduced, and this new draft is an attempt towa= rds extending the support of IOAM.

     

    We expect to have a lightning talk to discuss the dr= aft in the coming meeting. We are confident that earlier discussion on the = list will help us making this talk better.

     

    We would appreciate your comments,

     

    Thanks,

    Barak and the draft authors

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Mon, 9 Nov 2020 13:57:31 +0000 From: "Richard Vallee (rvallee)" To: Tommy Pauly , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" , "spring@ietf.org" , "spring@ietf.org" , IPPM Chairs Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Thread-Index: AQHWrutqxCpe6zKAOkqELdQ0D7z91KmxuS4AgA3VsAA= Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 13:57:31 +0000 Message-ID: <3F41FF05-C570-4E4E-8520-4FAB358390B1@cisco.com> References: <1CC38E78-DDE2-450C-B9FF-DB1EDEF230B5@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <1CC38E78-DDE2-450C-B9FF-DB1EDEF230B5@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.42.20101102 authentication-results: dmarc.ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc.ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [74.14.193.151] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 1624c91c-3bb6-499e-cc14-08d884b76744 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: 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c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3Bvp0QdIN/dN2oS7OZrZU1GSJPmfLsZKyWr7UY5ho80=; b=TNohNLwnTC5N8iR4QRZxfOIWqUpXdB8GqsRWKsWprRW3QtXUQv2LWKIDAePZsfxe3x s6/6oV0IAl+ix6AreCFhTFKSNSxEZ09Oos7fxrd277GEkI7Q6Twj6d+gPzEYbf6MlI3F Nj7NwX0CPiOXtmPl0a0inCQEB+84563vjEEY1qsG596IdwKFkGRcwY+CsRbBfNOBNAbs Li0uC4TmfPM4/gVEdNGIAWhVwUzeCndz5Qu9xmsHytxjiCegGoBEJyDjnKpJCC1bECH0 6wFMAip7Y432OpI56O3M0KRvcHp2k0R4Y3svQCDTMKYeyJlfb0O/y6+OYVgsUkz1hmjv 7nrQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3Bvp0QdIN/dN2oS7OZrZU1GSJPmfLsZKyWr7UY5ho80=; b=oICTS4vZv5mzRJfDDfnuA7+30/nHNTV+tUDdnCormXHb7+Vznf8CNrNIE9zj5dmmDM cUJQ44O0SJv5ocgO0zxvCtoyY6uyWC2WJKP/IrUdxtIAEZV8iJPB8CLU/B6hghRkGIps GXVWgnFG/ZsMnGW+17vV7pi3+SAilP/g9IiuDsuTVYkHu9jL/epEBjIiWHw1HKgzzqoh 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Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2020 16:47:40 -0000 --000000000000b3e96e05b3af5144 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b3e96c05b3af5142" --000000000000b3e96c05b3af5142 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG community, I've reviewed these drafts and have some comments to share. Below, please find my thoughts on whether these drafts can be adopted. More specific comments on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft and its accompanying draft targetted to the SPRING WG) are in the attached documents. Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluated by answers to these three questions: =C2=B7 Is the document(s) reasonably well-written I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology from RFCs 4656/5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", are used in the documents without proper definitions. Other than that both drafts are readable and reasonably well-written. =C2=B7 Does the document solve a real problem? No, it appears that both TWAMP and STAMP drafts define a new performance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/TWAMP and STAMP functionality in the respective drafts, and adding the ability to collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find sufficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing OAM mechanisms like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884= . =C2=B7 Is the proposed solution technically viable? There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced by the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the proposed solutions. Regards, Greg On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly wrote: > Hello IPPM, > > For the past few meetings, we=E2=80=99ve had updates on the work in the S= PRING WG > that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making > extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided > that it would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension > work in the IPPM WG. > > As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption > for draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. > > The documents are here: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 > > The related SPRING documents are here: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 > > Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether or not > you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. > Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, o= n *Monday, > November 16*. > > Best, > Tommy & Ian > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > --000000000000b3e96c05b3af5142 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG community,
    I'= ve reviewed these drafts and have some comments to share. Below, please fin= d my thoughts on whether these drafts can be adopted. More specific comment= s on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft and its acc= ompanying=C2=A0draft targetted=C2=A0to the SPRING WG) are in the attached d= ocuments.

    Usually, the bar for the= adoption of a document can be evaluated=C2=A0by answers to these three questions:

    =C2=B7=C2=A0 Is the document(s) reasonably well-written

    I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the te= rminology from RFCs 4656/5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own termino= logy for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths&quo= t;, are used in the documents without proper definitions. Other than that both drafts are readable and reasonably well-written.

    =C2=B7=C2=A0 Does the document solve a real= problem?

    No, it appears that=C2=A0 both TWAMP and STAMP drafts=C2=A0=C2=A0define a new performance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/TWAMP and STAMP functionality i= n the respective drafts, and adding the ability to collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn= 't find sufficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing OAM mechanisms like ICMP multi-part message= extension per RFC 4884.

    =C2=B7=C2=A0 Is the proposed solution techn= ically viable?

    There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the ri= sk introduced by the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the propo= sed solutions.

    =C2=A0

    R= egards,

    Greg



    On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tom= my Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple= .com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
    Hello IPP= M,

    For the past few meetings, we=E2=80=99ve had up= dates on the work in the SPRING WG that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since th= ose documents ended up making extensions to the base protocols, the chairs = of SPRING and IPPM decided that it would be best to split the documents and= track the IPPM extension work in the IPPM WG.

    As = such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption for=C2=A0draft-gand= hi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm.

    Please provide your feed= back on these documents, and state whether or not you believe the IPPM WG s= hould adopt this work by replying to this email. Please provide your feedba= ck by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Monday, November 16= .
    Bes= t,
    To= mmy & Ian
    _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list
    ippm@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
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j12so11527445iow.0; Mon, 09 Nov 2020 14:08:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Fkvx9eun07PsBVsGzSIK/oX3qT8gmqMIn2aIzF/aA1I=; b=NE3cHKP05qrzsz06HL7BmUEeWRieKYWl+aHoYLqOiSib42zE6b9cObPhL0h/1tjLBi jua5ejSfv62Cw9WG7MY8/NIgQDa7qAtHj/QwsK/YXxUmj5XN3urYeoYO2MwIMaY809nX MIdRTJY3rnn/LJa/HvloseFMOPc8WTM0oGXBgj4tiDu/Flu1WzT9yJrizYyNzvrahSNj jq3ulWVVpZV+8MF9/caztOSnv2uK0PGm/bSAvZ4vmir65VVSAPT4RzzhEpp+/N002oyO HJAbmej5SHcz/Q8P08myi2SgmdKpVu147oOlgbhLwXb+0JDIEVh2ekVVI/w2Q27TH2fi +uzg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Fkvx9eun07PsBVsGzSIK/oX3qT8gmqMIn2aIzF/aA1I=; b=ZFRGTLDswxQ7F64r9bUFG7J40jVIlmbyvDgYpeR3m42+lSWmqHD1Oy6SbbVRoCqoP/ Up3Nt6PMolobo/k4v5YqjCmiInP7jenXcujZSplN37B5QL4AAABJAekgtN8HO5I/qGXZ 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boundary="00000000000082078905b3b3ce34" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2020 22:08:56 -0000 --00000000000082078905b3b3ce34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Ping? On Tue, Oct 6, 2020 at 12:06 PM Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > Hmm, my notes have this one as waiting on me to look at the latest updates, > though there are a few other documents currently in front of it in my > priority queue. > > -Ben > > On Tue, Oct 06, 2020 at 12:04:28PM -0700, Martin Duke wrote: > > I believe the current status of this is that Ben is awaiting another > > version of this draft to resolve his DISCUSS. If anyone has a different > > understanding, please say so. > > > > On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 12:44 PM Greg Mirsky > wrote: > > > > > Hi Ben, > > > thank you for your comments and suggestions, all are much appreciated. > > > Please find my notes in-lined below tagged by GIM>>. Attached are the > diff > > > and the new working version of the draft. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Greg > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 8:55 PM Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker < > > > noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > > > > > >> Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > > >> draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-09: Discuss > > >> > > >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > > >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut > this > > >> introductory paragraph, however.) > > >> > > >> > > >> Please refer to > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > >> > > >> > > >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv/ > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> DISCUSS: > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > >> Thanks for all the updates; we've made good progress. > > >> > > >> I think we're still not converged on the DSCP handling, though. I > have > > >> a bit more exposition in the COMMENT section, but in short, my > > >> understanding is that we're setting up a session-reflector to incur > > >> unbounded levels of risk with hard protocol requirements. I think we > > >> need to provide a way to bound that risk, for example by allowing the > > >> Session-Reflector to selectively choose to treat the CoS TLV as > > >> unimplemented (set the U flag in its reflected packet) or some other > > >> mechanism for local policy to filter what DSCP codepoints are set in > > >> reflected packets (ideally, indicating that the policy made a change). > > >> > > > GIM>> Thank you for pointing to the inter-QoS domain scenario. > Clearly, it > > > must be handled with more caution. Using the U flag is a very > interesting > > > approach. But wouldn't the Session-Sender skip the CoS TLV in the > reflected > > > packet? As a result, we may not retrieve information about the CoS > mapping > > > in the forward direction, i.e., towards the Session-Reflector. And it > might > > > be difficult for an operator to recognize whether the Session-Reflector > > > doesn't support the particular CoS or STAMP extensions altogether. I > would > > > propose a new field being added in the CoS TLV: > > > > > > - RP (Reverse Path) - is a two-bit-long field. A Session-Sender > > > MUST set the value of the RP field to 0 on transmission. > > > > > > And further in the section another update: > > > A STAMP Session-Reflector that receives a test packet with the CoS > > > TLV MUST include the CoS TLV in the reflected test packet. Also, > the > > > Session-Reflector MUST copy the value of the DSCP and ECN fields of > > > the IP header of the received STAMP test packet into the DSCP2 field > > > in the reflected test packet. Finally, the Session-Reflector MUST > > > use the local policy to verify whether the CoS corresponding to the > > > value of the DSCP1 field is permitted in the domain. If it is, the > > > Session-Reflectorset MUST set the DSCP field's value in the IP > header > > > of the reflected test packet equal to the value of the DSCP1 field > of > > > the received test packet. Otherwise, the Session-Reflector MUST use > > > the DSCP value of the received STAMP packet and set the value of the > > > RP field to 1. Upon receiving the reflected packet, if the value of > > > the RP field is 0, the Session-Sender will save the DSCP and ECN > > > values for analysis of the CoS in the reverse direction. If the > > > value of the RP field in the received reflected packet is 1, only > CoS > > > in the forward direction can be analyzed. > > > > > > Would these updates address your concern? > > > > > >> > > >> Also, there's a bit of fallout from the flags reworking that's left to > > >> cleanup in Section 4: we now have the Session-Sender set the U flag to > > >> 1, so this text no longer makes sense: > > >> > > >> % A STAMP system, i.e., either a Session-Sender or a > Session-Reflector, > > >> % that has received a STAMP test packet with extension TLVs MUST > > >> % validate each TLV: > > >> % > > >> % If the U flag is set, the STAMP system MUST skip the processing > of > > >> % the TLV. > > >> > > >> I think it should just apply to the Session-Sender for this case -- > the > > >> Session-Reflector doesn't need to check the received U flag, since the > > >> Session-Sender will not be generating TLVs it does not understand. > > >> (Whether or not to keep the behavior for the M and I flags as applying > > >> to both Session-Sender and Session-Reflector vs. just Session-Sender > > >> does not immediately seem to be of much consequence. > > >> > > > GIM>> Thank you for catching this. Indeed, that brakes STAMP with > > > extensions. I think that though checking M and I flags of a > > > Session-Reflector should not do any harm, it doesn't seem to have any > > > benefits. Hence we may remove the Session-Reflector from the sentence > and > > > the updated introduction to the flag processing reads like below: > > > A STAMP Session-Sender that has received a reflected STAMP test > > > packet with extension TLVs MUST validate each TLV: > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> COMMENT: > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > >> My most significant remaining comments are on the Security > > >> Considerations (Section 6): > > >> > > >> The security of the HMAC mechanism is not complete, since it is > > >> susceptible to replay attack. As such, when HMAC is in use, it is > > >> important to check that the received sequence numbers are (at least > > >> mostly) monotonic and to detect replays. While replayed packets do > not > > >> always indicate an attack (depending on the network technology) they > are > > >> still a noteworthy condition, and we should say something about > whether > > >> we expect to produce a response to each received instance or to > suppress > > >> replies to replayed input. > > >> > > > GIM>> Is there a reliable mechanism to distinguish between an > out-of-order > > > duplicated packet and a replayed packet? I've checked RFC 5357 TWAMP > for > > > any suggestion and believe that there is no special consideration by a > > > Session-Reflector for an out-of-order duplicated packet. The TWAMP > > > Session-Reflector does not monitor whether the sequence numbers of the > > > received test packets are in the monotonically increasing sequence. > STAMP > > > is designed to be comparable with TWAMP and have some level of > > > interoperability. Hence, discarding what appears as a replayed packet > at a > > > STAMP Session-Reflector might be less desirable behavior. If we follow > > > TWAMP's behavior, what else can be done at the Session-Reflector to > > > strengthen the security? > > > > > >> > > >> Monitoring and optional control of DSCP do not appear to introduce > > >> any additional security threat to hosts that communicate with STAMP > > >> as defined in [RFC8762]. As this specification defined the > mechanism > > >> to test DSCP mapping, this document inherits all the security > > >> > > >> I'm afraid I still don't understand the reasoning here. In my > > >> understanding, the risk stems from the semantics of the DCSP field > being > > >> (for at least some codepoints) site-local, there not being a guarantee > > >> that the session-sender and session-reflector are on the same network > > >> (and thus, using the same DSCP semantics), and the hard requirement > for > > >> the Session-Reflector to set the DCSP value indicated by the > > >> Session-Sender. A mechanism for a remote entity to induce generation > of > > >> local packets with unspecified semantics is a risk that cannot be > > >> qualified at protocol-design time, since the possible outcomes are > > >> inherently unspecified. This is analogous to the situation with > > >> undefined behavior in programming languages like C -- the programmer > is > > >> flat-out required to avoid it, because literally anything could go > wrong > > >> if undefined behavior is triggered. > > >> > > > GIM>> I agree that the inter-QoS domain case requires more > consideration > > > in the Security section. I propose the updated text below: > > > > > > As this specification defined the mechanism to test DSCP mapping, > > > this document inherits all the security considerations discussed in > > > [RFC2474]. Monitoring and optional control of DSCP using the CoS > TLV > > > may be used across the Internet so that the Session-Sender and the > > > Session-Reflector are located in domains that use different CoS > > > profiles. Thus, it is essential that an operator verifies the set > of > > > CoS values that are used in the Session-Reflector's domain. Also, > an > > > implementation of a Session-Reflector SHOULD support a local policy > > > to confirm whether the value sent by the Session-Sender can be used > > > as the value of the DSCP field. Section 4.4 defines the use of that > > > local policy. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> This is especially risky when there is the possibility for the > > >> Session-Reflector to act on packets that do not have any form of > > >> authentication (i.e., could be spoofed from off-path). But we do not > > >> mention this risk at all, let alone give guidance on its mitigation. > > >> (Discussion of the security considerations of unauthenticated > operation > > >> would ideally be generalized to all actions/TLVs that have side > effects, > > >> not just the specific case of setting the DSCP codepoint.) > > >> > > > GIM>> It seems very challenging for a STAMP system to differentiate > > > between a duplicate and/or out-of-order test packet and a replayed > packet > > > because one of the metrics STAMP test measures is the network > re-ordering > > > metric per RFC 4737 . We may > > > recommend that the rate-limiting of test packets be selected > > > conservatively. > > > > > >> > > >> Section 4.2 > > >> > > >> I'd suggest saying that all fields that are not filled are transmitted > > >> with all bits set to zero. > > >> > > > GIM>> Thank you for the helpful suggestion. Appended Section 4.2: > > > Note that all fields not filled by either a Session-Sender or > > > Session-Reflector are transmitted with all bits set to zero. > > > > > >> > > >> Section 4.2.1 > > >> > > >> o Source MAC Address sub-TLV - is a 12-octet-long sub-TLV. The > Type > > >> value is TBA9. The value of the Length field MUST equal to 8. > > >> The Value field is a 12-octet-long MBZ field that MUST be zeroed > > >> on transmission and ignored on receipt. > > >> > > >> Value should be 8-octets-long, no? > > >> > > > GIM>> Thank you for catching it! You are absolutely correct. Fixed this > > > and a similar in: > > > o Source EUI-64 Address sub-TLV - is a 12-octet-long sub-TLV that > > > includes the EUI-64 source MAC address. The Type value is TBA11. > > > The value of the Length field MUST equal to 8. The Value field > > > consists of an eight-octet-long EUI-64 field. > > > > > > > > > > > >> Section 4.2.2 > > >> > > >> A Session-Sender MAY include the Source MAC Address sub-TLV is the > > >> Location TLV. If the Session-Reflector receives the Location TLV > > >> > > >> nit: s/is/in/ > > >> > > > GIM>> Thank you. Fixed (and three more places in the same sub-section). > > > > > >> > > >> Section 4.3 > > >> > > >> MUST NOT fill any information fields except for STAMP TLV Flags, > > >> Type, and Length. All other fields MUST be filled with zeroes The > > >> > > >> nit: missing full stop. > > >> > > > GIM>> Done. > > > > --00000000000082078905b3b3ce34 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Ping?

    On Tue, Oct 6, 2020 at 12:06 PM Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
    Hmm, my notes have this one as = waiting on me to look at the latest updates,
    though there are a few other documents currently in front of it in my
    priority queue.

    -Ben

    On Tue, Oct 06, 2020 at 12:04:28PM -0700, Martin Duke wrote:
    > I believe the current status of this is that Ben is awaiting another > version of this draft to resolve his DISCUSS. If anyone has a differen= t
    > understanding, please say so.
    >
    > On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 12:44 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote: >
    > > Hi Ben,
    > > thank you for your comments and suggestions, all are much appreci= ated.
    > > Please find my notes in-lined below tagged by GIM>>. Attach= ed are the diff
    > > and the new working version of the draft.
    > >
    > > Regards,
    > > Greg
    > >
    > > On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 8:55 PM Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker <= ;
    > > noreply@iet= f.org> wrote:
    > >
    > >> Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for<= br> > >> draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-09: Discuss
    > >>
    > >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and repl= y to all
    > >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free t= o cut this
    > >> introductory paragraph, however.)
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> Please refer to https://www.i= etf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
    > >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions= .
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found= here:
    > >> https://datatracker.= ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv/
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> -------------------------------------------------------------= ---------
    > >> DISCUSS:
    > >> -------------------------------------------------------------= ---------
    > >>
    > >> Thanks for all the updates; we've made good progress.
    > >>
    > >> I think we're still not converged on the DSCP handling, t= hough.=C2=A0 I have
    > >> a bit more exposition in the COMMENT section, but in short, m= y
    > >> understanding is that we're setting up a session-reflecto= r to incur
    > >> unbounded levels of risk with hard protocol requirements.=C2= =A0 I think we
    > >> need to provide a way to bound that risk, for example by allo= wing the
    > >> Session-Reflector to selectively choose to treat the CoS TLV = as
    > >> unimplemented (set the U flag in its reflected packet) or som= e other
    > >> mechanism for local policy to filter what DSCP codepoints are= set in
    > >> reflected packets (ideally, indicating that the policy made a= change).
    > >>
    > > GIM>> Thank you for pointing to the inter-QoS domain scenar= io. Clearly, it
    > > must be handled with more caution. Using the U flag is a very int= eresting
    > > approach. But wouldn't the Session-Sender skip the CoS TLV in= the reflected
    > > packet? As a result, we may not retrieve information about the Co= S mapping
    > > in the forward direction, i.e., towards the Session-Reflector. An= d it might
    > > be difficult for an operator to recognize whether the Session-Ref= lector
    > > doesn't support the particular CoS or STAMP extensions altoge= ther. I would
    > > propose a new field being added in the CoS TLV:
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -=C2=A0 =C2=A0 RP (Reverse Path) - is a two-bit-long= field.=C2=A0 A Session-Sender
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MUST set the value of the RP field to 0= on transmission.
    > >
    > > And further in the section another update:
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A STAMP Session-Reflector that receives a test packe= t with the CoS
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 TLV MUST include the CoS TLV in the reflected test p= acket.=C2=A0 Also, the
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Session-Reflector MUST copy the value of the DSCP an= d ECN fields of
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the IP header of the received STAMP test packet into= the DSCP2 field
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the reflected test packet.=C2=A0 Finally, the Ses= sion-Reflector MUST
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 use the local policy to verify whether the CoS corre= sponding to the
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 value of the DSCP1 field is permitted in the domain.= =C2=A0 If it is, the
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Session-Reflectorset MUST set the DSCP field's v= alue in the IP header
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the reflected test packet equal to the value of t= he DSCP1 field of
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the received test packet.=C2=A0 Otherwise, the Sessi= on-Reflector MUST use
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the DSCP value of the received STAMP packet and set = the value of the
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 RP field to 1.=C2=A0 Upon receiving the reflected pa= cket, if the value of
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the RP field is 0, the Session-Sender will save the = DSCP and ECN
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 values for analysis of the CoS in the reverse direct= ion.=C2=A0 If the
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 value of the RP field in the received reflected pack= et is 1, only CoS
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the forward direction can be analyzed.
    > >
    > > Would these updates address your concern?
    > >
    > >>
    > >> Also, there's a bit of fallout from the flags reworking t= hat's left to
    > >> cleanup in Section 4: we now have the Session-Sender set the = U flag to
    > >> 1, so this text no longer makes sense:
    > >>
    > >> % A STAMP system, i.e., either a Session-Sender or a Session-= Reflector,
    > >> % that has received a STAMP test packet with extension TLVs M= UST
    > >> % validate each TLV:
    > >> %
    > >> %=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If the U flag is set, the STAMP system MUST sk= ip the processing of
    > >> %=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the TLV.
    > >>
    > >> I think it should just apply to the Session-Sender for this c= ase -- the
    > >> Session-Reflector doesn't need to check the received U fl= ag, since the
    > >> Session-Sender will not be generating TLVs it does not unders= tand.
    > >> (Whether or not to keep the behavior for the M and I flags as= applying
    > >> to both Session-Sender and Session-Reflector vs. just Session= -Sender
    > >> does not immediately seem to be of much consequence.
    > >>
    > > GIM>> Thank you for catching this. Indeed, that brakes STAM= P with
    > > extensions. I think that though checking M and I flags of a
    > > Session-Reflector should not do any harm, it doesn't seem to = have any
    > > benefits. Hence we may remove the Session-Reflector from the sent= ence and
    > > the updated introduction to the flag processing reads like below:=
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A STAMP Session-Sender that has received a reflected= STAMP test
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 packet with extension TLVs MUST validate each TLV: > >
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> -------------------------------------------------------------= ---------
    > >> COMMENT:
    > >> -------------------------------------------------------------= ---------
    > >>
    > >> My most significant remaining comments are on the Security > >> Considerations (Section 6):
    > >>
    > >> The security of the HMAC mechanism is not complete, since it = is
    > >> susceptible to replay attack.=C2=A0 As such, when HMAC is in = use, it is
    > >> important to check that the received sequence numbers are (at= least
    > >> mostly) monotonic and to detect replays.=C2=A0 While replayed= packets do not
    > >> always indicate an attack (depending on the network technolog= y) they are
    > >> still a noteworthy condition, and we should say something abo= ut whether
    > >> we expect to produce a response to each received instance or = to suppress
    > >> replies to replayed input.
    > >>
    > > GIM>> Is there a reliable mechanism to distinguish between = an out-of-order
    > > duplicated packet and a replayed packet? I've checked RFC 535= 7 TWAMP for
    > > any suggestion and believe that there is no special consideration= by a
    > > Session-Reflector for an out-of-order duplicated packet. The TWAM= P
    > > Session-Reflector does not monitor whether the sequence numbers o= f the
    > > received test packets are in the monotonically increasing sequenc= e. STAMP
    > > is designed to be comparable with TWAMP and have some level of > > interoperability. Hence, discarding what appears as a replayed pa= cket at a
    > > STAMP Session-Reflector might be less desirable behavior. If we f= ollow
    > > TWAMP's behavior, what else can be done at the Session-Reflec= tor to
    > > strengthen the security?
    > >
    > >>
    > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Monitoring and optional control of DSCP do not a= ppear to introduce
    > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 any additional security threat to hosts that com= municate with STAMP
    > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as defined in [RFC8762].=C2=A0 As this specifica= tion defined the mechanism
    > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to test DSCP mapping, this document inherits all= the security
    > >>
    > >> I'm afraid I still don't understand the reasoning her= e.=C2=A0 In my
    > >> understanding, the risk stems from the semantics of the DCSP = field being
    > >> (for at least some codepoints) site-local, there not being a = guarantee
    > >> that the session-sender and session-reflector are on the same= network
    > >> (and thus, using the same DSCP semantics), and the hard requi= rement for
    > >> the Session-Reflector to set the DCSP value indicated by the<= br> > >> Session-Sender.=C2=A0 A mechanism for a remote entity to indu= ce generation of
    > >> local packets with unspecified semantics is a risk that canno= t be
    > >> qualified at protocol-design time, since the possible outcome= s are
    > >> inherently unspecified.=C2=A0 This is analogous to the situat= ion with
    > >> undefined behavior in programming languages like C -- the pro= grammer is
    > >> flat-out required to avoid it, because literally anything cou= ld go wrong
    > >> if undefined behavior is triggered.
    > >>
    > > GIM>> I agree that the inter-QoS domain case requires more = consideration
    > > in the Security section. I propose the updated text below:
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 As this specification defined the mechanism to test = DSCP mapping,
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this document inherits all the security consideratio= ns discussed in
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC2474].=C2=A0 Monitoring and optional control of = DSCP using the CoS TLV
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 may be used across the Internet so that the Session-= Sender and the
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Session-Reflector are located in domains that use di= fferent CoS
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 profiles.=C2=A0 Thus, it is essential that an operat= or verifies the set of
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 CoS values that are used in the Session-Reflector= 9;s domain.=C2=A0 Also, an
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 implementation of a Session-Reflector SHOULD support= a local policy
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to confirm whether the value sent by the Session-Sen= der can be used
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as the value of the DSCP field.=C2=A0 Section 4.4 de= fines the use of that
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 local policy.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >>
    > >> This is especially risky when there is the possibility for th= e
    > >> Session-Reflector to act on packets that do not have any form= of
    > >> authentication (i.e., could be spoofed from off-path).=C2=A0 = But we do not
    > >> mention this risk at all, let alone give guidance on its miti= gation.
    > >> (Discussion of the security considerations of unauthenticated= operation
    > >> would ideally be generalized to all actions/TLVs that have si= de effects,
    > >> not just the specific case of setting the DSCP codepoint.) > >>
    > > GIM>> It seems very challenging for a STAMP system to diffe= rentiate
    > > between a duplicate and/or out-of-order test packet and a replaye= d packet
    > > because one of the metrics STAMP test measures is the network re-= ordering
    > > metric per RFC 4737 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc= 4737>. We may
    > > recommend that the rate-limiting of test packets be selected
    > > conservatively.
    > >
    > >>
    > >> Section 4.2
    > >>
    > >> I'd suggest saying that all fields that are not filled ar= e transmitted
    > >> with all bits set to zero.
    > >>
    > > GIM>> Thank you for the helpful suggestion. Appended Sectio= n 4.2:
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Note that all fields not filled by either a Session-= Sender or
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Session-Reflector are transmitted with all bits set = to zero.
    > >
    > >>
    > >> Section 4.2.1
    > >>
    > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Source MAC Address sub-TLV - is a 12-oct= et-long sub-TLV.=C2=A0 The Type
    > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0value is TBA9.=C2=A0 The value of t= he Length field MUST equal to 8.
    > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The Value field is a 12-octet-long = MBZ field that MUST be zeroed
    > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0on transmission and ignored on rece= ipt.
    > >>
    > >> Value should be 8-octets-long, no?
    > >>
    > > GIM>> Thank you for catching it! You are absolutely correct= . Fixed this
    > > and a similar in:
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Source EUI-64 Address sub-TLV - is a 12-octe= t-long sub-TLV that
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0includes the EUI-64 source MAC address.= =C2=A0 The Type value is TBA11.
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The value of the Length field MUST equa= l to 8.=C2=A0 The Value field
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0consists of an eight-octet-long EUI-64 = field.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >> Section 4.2.2
    > >>
    > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A Session-Sender MAY include the Source MAC Addr= ess sub-TLV is the
    > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Location TLV.=C2=A0 If the Session-Reflector rec= eives the Location TLV
    > >>
    > >> nit: s/is/in/
    > >>
    > > GIM>> Thank you. Fixed (and three more places in the same s= ub-section).
    > >
    > >>
    > >> Section 4.3
    > >>
    > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MUST NOT fill any information fields except for = STAMP TLV Flags,
    > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Type, and Length.=C2=A0 All other fields MUST be= filled with zeroes The
    > >>
    > >> nit: missing full stop.
    > >>
    > > GIM>> Done.
    > >
    --00000000000082078905b3b3ce34-- From nobody Mon Nov 9 14:09:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietf.org Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 008CB3A14A3; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 14:09:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Tommy Pauly via Datatracker To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.22.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: iesg-secretary@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org, tpauly@apple.com, ippm-chairs@ietf.org, Ian Swett Message-ID: <160495979798.8045.15803996378686981932@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2020 14:09:57 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Publication has been requested for draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-metric-method-04 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2020 22:09:58 -0000 Tommy Pauly has requested publication of draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-metric-method-04 as Proposed Standard on behalf of the IPPM working group. Please verify the document's state at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-metric-method/ From nobody Mon Nov 9 17:16:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9484A3A1117 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 17:16:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LVYNudrowy24 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 17:16:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BCFB3A10DF for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 17:16:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml704-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.226]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4CVVJJ2Xm5z67J9c for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 09:14:24 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.53) by fraeml704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.53) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 02:16:12 +0100 Received: from DGGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.38) by fraeml704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.53) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA_P256) id 15.1.1913.5 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 02:16:12 +0100 Received: from DGGEML504-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.11.198]) by DGGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::fca6:7568:4ee3:c776%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 09:15:47 +0800 From: wangyali To: Giuseppe Fioccola , ippm Thread-Topic: New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01 Thread-Index: AdasYaNf5HuEbcjjTW+88BYR+uS3xgGKy+MgAO2SaiA= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 01:15:46 +0000 Message-ID: <1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F40509C92E@DGGEML504-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F405050B14@dggeml524-mbx.china.huawei.com> <63c9adc987084725b84c857533c59b79@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <63c9adc987084725b84c857533c59b79@huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.136] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 01:16:18 -0000 Hi Giuseppe, Thanks for your suggestions and comments, all are much appreciated. Please = find inline [Yali]. Thanks, -----Original Message----- From: Giuseppe Fioccola=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2020 5:43 PM To: wangyali ; ippm Subject: RE: New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01 Hi Yali, All, I have read this document and it looks interesting. I have a couple of comments: - The document only describes HbH Delay TLV, what about the specification o= f the HbH also for packet loss? [Yali] I agree with you. In the next version, I will add a section about th= e HbH Packet Loss TLV.=20 - Regarding the IOAM Tracing Data TLV, the STAMP Session-Reflector test pac= ket carries the IOAM tracing data back to the Session-Sender. What about ex= tending this also for Alt Mark? [Yali] I will mention in the next version that in addition to IOAM, other t= elemetry data (e.g. alternate marking) could be transmitted by STAMP option= al TLV extensions. The draft will keep the option open for future augmentat= ions.=20 Regards, Giuseppe -----Original Message----- From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of wangyali Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 2:49 PM To: ippm Subject: [ippm] New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01 Hello WG, Draft about extensions to STAMP enable hop-by-hop OAM data measurement and = collection has been updated, which was presented in IETF108. Questions and = comments are welcome. Because the performance of intermediate nodes and links that STAMP test pac= kets traverse are invisible, to solve this problem, this draft extents opti= onal TLVs to STAMP and inserts IOAM Trace option data in the test packets o= r dispatches test packets to the OAM process at OAM Endpoint. =20 In this case, the STAMP instance does not need to be configured at every in= termediate node to measure the performance of intermediate nodes, which dec= reases the complexity of OAM in large-scale networks. What do you think?=20 Best regards, Yali -----Original Message----- From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 9:03 PM To: wangyali ; Tianran Zhou Subject: New Version Notification for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-= 01.txt A new version of I-D, draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Yali Wang and posted to the IETF reposit= ory. Name: draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions Revision: 01 Title: Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol Extensions for Hop-by-Ho= p OAM Data Collection Document date: 2020-10-27 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 10 URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-e= xtensions-01.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-= extensions/ Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-ippm-stamp= -hbh-extensions Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-exten= sions-01 Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-wang-ippm-stamp-h= bh-extensions-01 Abstract: This document defines optional TLVs which are carried in Simple Two- way Active Measurement Protocol (STAMP) test packets to enhance the STAMP base functions. Such extensions to STAMP enable OAM data measurement and collection at every node and link along a STAMP test packet's delivery path. = =20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From nobody Mon Nov 9 17:57:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 582913A15D3 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 17:57:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aUsaZb1HqznJ for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 17:57:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F6553A15CD for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 17:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.207]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4CVWCP0kbZz67K24 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 09:55:13 +0800 (CST) Received: from nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.157) by fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 02:57:00 +0100 Received: from nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.157]) by nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.157]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 09:56:58 +0800 From: Tianran Zhou To: wangyali , Giuseppe Fioccola , ippm Thread-Topic: New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01 Thread-Index: AdasYaNf5HuEbcjjTW+88BYR+uS3xgGKy+MgAO2SaiAAMF2+4A== Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 01:56:58 +0000 Message-ID: <45f0c5b5f49b4ed18c41142180a6aeb7@huawei.com> References: <1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F405050B14@dggeml524-mbx.china.huawei.com> <63c9adc987084725b84c857533c59b79@huawei.com> <1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F40509C92E@DGGEML504-MBS.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F40509C92E@DGGEML504-MBS.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.128] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 01:57:14 -0000 Hi Giuseppe, >what about the specification of the HbH also for packet loss? What does the packet loss TLV really mean? I.e., what value or information = should be captured and carried in the container? Thanks, Tianran -----Original Message----- From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of wangyali Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 9:16 AM To: Giuseppe Fioccola ; ippm Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01 Hi Giuseppe, Thanks for your suggestions and comments, all are much appreciated. Please = find inline [Yali]. Thanks, -----Original Message----- From: Giuseppe Fioccola=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2020 5:43 PM To: wangyali ; ippm Subject: RE: New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01 Hi Yali, All, I have read this document and it looks interesting. I have a couple of comments: - The document only describes HbH Delay TLV, what about the specification o= f the HbH also for packet loss? [Yali] I agree with you. In the next version, I will add a section about th= e HbH Packet Loss TLV.=20 - Regarding the IOAM Tracing Data TLV, the STAMP Session-Reflector test pac= ket carries the IOAM tracing data back to the Session-Sender. What about ex= tending this also for Alt Mark? [Yali] I will mention in the next version that in addition to IOAM, other t= elemetry data (e.g. alternate marking) could be transmitted by STAMP option= al TLV extensions. The draft will keep the option open for future augmentat= ions.=20 Regards, Giuseppe -----Original Message----- From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of wangyali Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 2:49 PM To: ippm Subject: [ippm] New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01 Hello WG, Draft about extensions to STAMP enable hop-by-hop OAM data measurement and = collection has been updated, which was presented in IETF108. Questions and = comments are welcome. Because the performance of intermediate nodes and links that STAMP test pac= kets traverse are invisible, to solve this problem, this draft extents opti= onal TLVs to STAMP and inserts IOAM Trace option data in the test packets o= r dispatches test packets to the OAM process at OAM Endpoint. =20 In this case, the STAMP instance does not need to be configured at every in= termediate node to measure the performance of intermediate nodes, which dec= reases the complexity of OAM in large-scale networks. What do you think?=20 Best regards, Yali -----Original Message----- From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 9:03 PM To: wangyali ; Tianran Zhou Subject: New Version Notification for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-= 01.txt A new version of I-D, draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Yali Wang and posted to the IETF reposit= ory. Name: draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions Revision: 01 Title: Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol Extensions for Hop-by-Ho= p OAM Data Collection Document date: 2020-10-27 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 10 URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-e= xtensions-01.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-= extensions/ Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-ippm-stamp= -hbh-extensions Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-exten= sions-01 Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-wang-ippm-stamp-h= bh-extensions-01 Abstract: This document defines optional TLVs which are carried in Simple Two- way Active Measurement Protocol (STAMP) test packets to enhance the STAMP base functions. Such extensions to STAMP enable OAM data measurement and collection at every node and link along a STAMP test packet's delivery path. = =20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From nobody Mon Nov 9 21:23:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF5783A0D38; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 21:23:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id imovIPdm_UZf; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 21:23:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 77DDC3A0D3D; Mon, 9 Nov 2020 21:23:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 0AA5MOSU031427 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 10 Nov 2020 00:22:29 -0500 Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 21:22:24 -0800 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Martin Duke Cc: Greg Mirsky , IPPM Chairs , draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv@ietf.org, The IESG , Yali Wang , IETF IPPM WG Message-ID: <20201110052224.GF39170@kduck.mit.edu> References: <159901891096.15973.17525194862666459811@ietfa.amsl.com> <20201006190630.GK89563@kduck.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 05:23:06 -0000 A timely reminder; as it happens this was on my list to look at today as well :) I'm happy to report that the editor's copy looks to resolve my Discuss points on the -09; thank you! Adding the Reverse Path field to indicate that the requested DSCP could not be used seems to be a fairly elegant approach (since we have bits to spare). The other changes look good, too, and pick up almost all my other comments. That said, I couldn't (quickly) find anything to indicate that we had already talked about my top-level comment point regarding the protection of the HMAC TLV and the potential for replayed packets. While I recognize that there is a sequence number in the base STAMP packet format, STAMP itself does not seem to make many requirements on, e.g., processing packets in sequence number order or rejecting very old packets. Since STAMP is a measurement protocol, I don't think we would need to change much of the STAMP behavior just because we can get some moderate level of action/information from the Session-Reflector (or just because the packet is authenticated by the HMAC, not that such reasoning would make much sense). AFAICT, though, we should have some caveat in the security considerations that while the HMAC TLV protects the integrity of the extensions, it does not protect against replay. I'm happy to approve posting of a -10 during the submissions blackout if that will help get things moving again. Thanks, and sorry again for the slowness of my responses on this one. -Ben On Mon, Nov 09, 2020 at 02:08:37PM -0800, Martin Duke wrote: > Ping? > > On Tue, Oct 6, 2020 at 12:06 PM Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > > > Hmm, my notes have this one as waiting on me to look at the latest updates, > > though there are a few other documents currently in front of it in my > > priority queue. > > > > -Ben > > > > On Tue, Oct 06, 2020 at 12:04:28PM -0700, Martin Duke wrote: > > > I believe the current status of this is that Ben is awaiting another > > > version of this draft to resolve his DISCUSS. If anyone has a different > > > understanding, please say so. > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 12:44 PM Greg Mirsky > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Ben, > > > > thank you for your comments and suggestions, all are much appreciated. > > > > Please find my notes in-lined below tagged by GIM>>. Attached are the > > diff > > > > and the new working version of the draft. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 8:55 PM Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker < > > > > noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > > > > > > > >> Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > > > >> draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-09: Discuss > > > >> > > > >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > > > >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut > > this > > > >> introductory paragraph, however.) > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Please refer to > > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > > >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv/ > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> DISCUSS: > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> > > > >> Thanks for all the updates; we've made good progress. > > > >> > > > >> I think we're still not converged on the DSCP handling, though. I > > have > > > >> a bit more exposition in the COMMENT section, but in short, my > > > >> understanding is that we're setting up a session-reflector to incur > > > >> unbounded levels of risk with hard protocol requirements. I think we > > > >> need to provide a way to bound that risk, for example by allowing the > > > >> Session-Reflector to selectively choose to treat the CoS TLV as > > > >> unimplemented (set the U flag in its reflected packet) or some other > > > >> mechanism for local policy to filter what DSCP codepoints are set in > > > >> reflected packets (ideally, indicating that the policy made a change). > > > >> > > > > GIM>> Thank you for pointing to the inter-QoS domain scenario. > > Clearly, it > > > > must be handled with more caution. Using the U flag is a very > > interesting > > > > approach. But wouldn't the Session-Sender skip the CoS TLV in the > > reflected > > > > packet? As a result, we may not retrieve information about the CoS > > mapping > > > > in the forward direction, i.e., towards the Session-Reflector. And it > > might > > > > be difficult for an operator to recognize whether the Session-Reflector > > > > doesn't support the particular CoS or STAMP extensions altogether. I > > would > > > > propose a new field being added in the CoS TLV: > > > > > > > > - RP (Reverse Path) - is a two-bit-long field. A Session-Sender > > > > MUST set the value of the RP field to 0 on transmission. > > > > > > > > And further in the section another update: > > > > A STAMP Session-Reflector that receives a test packet with the CoS > > > > TLV MUST include the CoS TLV in the reflected test packet. Also, > > the > > > > Session-Reflector MUST copy the value of the DSCP and ECN fields of > > > > the IP header of the received STAMP test packet into the DSCP2 field > > > > in the reflected test packet. Finally, the Session-Reflector MUST > > > > use the local policy to verify whether the CoS corresponding to the > > > > value of the DSCP1 field is permitted in the domain. If it is, the > > > > Session-Reflectorset MUST set the DSCP field's value in the IP > > header > > > > of the reflected test packet equal to the value of the DSCP1 field > > of > > > > the received test packet. Otherwise, the Session-Reflector MUST use > > > > the DSCP value of the received STAMP packet and set the value of the > > > > RP field to 1. Upon receiving the reflected packet, if the value of > > > > the RP field is 0, the Session-Sender will save the DSCP and ECN > > > > values for analysis of the CoS in the reverse direction. If the > > > > value of the RP field in the received reflected packet is 1, only > > CoS > > > > in the forward direction can be analyzed. > > > > > > > > Would these updates address your concern? > > > > > > > >> > > > >> Also, there's a bit of fallout from the flags reworking that's left to > > > >> cleanup in Section 4: we now have the Session-Sender set the U flag to > > > >> 1, so this text no longer makes sense: > > > >> > > > >> % A STAMP system, i.e., either a Session-Sender or a > > Session-Reflector, > > > >> % that has received a STAMP test packet with extension TLVs MUST > > > >> % validate each TLV: > > > >> % > > > >> % If the U flag is set, the STAMP system MUST skip the processing > > of > > > >> % the TLV. > > > >> > > > >> I think it should just apply to the Session-Sender for this case -- > > the > > > >> Session-Reflector doesn't need to check the received U flag, since the > > > >> Session-Sender will not be generating TLVs it does not understand. > > > >> (Whether or not to keep the behavior for the M and I flags as applying > > > >> to both Session-Sender and Session-Reflector vs. just Session-Sender > > > >> does not immediately seem to be of much consequence. > > > >> > > > > GIM>> Thank you for catching this. Indeed, that brakes STAMP with > > > > extensions. I think that though checking M and I flags of a > > > > Session-Reflector should not do any harm, it doesn't seem to have any > > > > benefits. Hence we may remove the Session-Reflector from the sentence > > and > > > > the updated introduction to the flag processing reads like below: > > > > A STAMP Session-Sender that has received a reflected STAMP test > > > > packet with extension TLVs MUST validate each TLV: > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> COMMENT: > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> > > > >> My most significant remaining comments are on the Security > > > >> Considerations (Section 6): > > > >> > > > >> The security of the HMAC mechanism is not complete, since it is > > > >> susceptible to replay attack. As such, when HMAC is in use, it is > > > >> important to check that the received sequence numbers are (at least > > > >> mostly) monotonic and to detect replays. While replayed packets do > > not > > > >> always indicate an attack (depending on the network technology) they > > are > > > >> still a noteworthy condition, and we should say something about > > whether > > > >> we expect to produce a response to each received instance or to > > suppress > > > >> replies to replayed input. > > > >> > > > > GIM>> Is there a reliable mechanism to distinguish between an > > out-of-order > > > > duplicated packet and a replayed packet? I've checked RFC 5357 TWAMP > > for > > > > any suggestion and believe that there is no special consideration by a > > > > Session-Reflector for an out-of-order duplicated packet. The TWAMP > > > > Session-Reflector does not monitor whether the sequence numbers of the > > > > received test packets are in the monotonically increasing sequence. > > STAMP > > > > is designed to be comparable with TWAMP and have some level of > > > > interoperability. Hence, discarding what appears as a replayed packet > > at a > > > > STAMP Session-Reflector might be less desirable behavior. If we follow > > > > TWAMP's behavior, what else can be done at the Session-Reflector to > > > > strengthen the security? > > > > > > > >> > > > >> Monitoring and optional control of DSCP do not appear to introduce > > > >> any additional security threat to hosts that communicate with STAMP > > > >> as defined in [RFC8762]. As this specification defined the > > mechanism > > > >> to test DSCP mapping, this document inherits all the security > > > >> > > > >> I'm afraid I still don't understand the reasoning here. In my > > > >> understanding, the risk stems from the semantics of the DCSP field > > being > > > >> (for at least some codepoints) site-local, there not being a guarantee > > > >> that the session-sender and session-reflector are on the same network > > > >> (and thus, using the same DSCP semantics), and the hard requirement > > for > > > >> the Session-Reflector to set the DCSP value indicated by the > > > >> Session-Sender. A mechanism for a remote entity to induce generation > > of > > > >> local packets with unspecified semantics is a risk that cannot be > > > >> qualified at protocol-design time, since the possible outcomes are > > > >> inherently unspecified. This is analogous to the situation with > > > >> undefined behavior in programming languages like C -- the programmer > > is > > > >> flat-out required to avoid it, because literally anything could go > > wrong > > > >> if undefined behavior is triggered. > > > >> > > > > GIM>> I agree that the inter-QoS domain case requires more > > consideration > > > > in the Security section. I propose the updated text below: > > > > > > > > As this specification defined the mechanism to test DSCP mapping, > > > > this document inherits all the security considerations discussed in > > > > [RFC2474]. Monitoring and optional control of DSCP using the CoS > > TLV > > > > may be used across the Internet so that the Session-Sender and the > > > > Session-Reflector are located in domains that use different CoS > > > > profiles. Thus, it is essential that an operator verifies the set > > of > > > > CoS values that are used in the Session-Reflector's domain. Also, > > an > > > > implementation of a Session-Reflector SHOULD support a local policy > > > > to confirm whether the value sent by the Session-Sender can be used > > > > as the value of the DSCP field. Section 4.4 defines the use of that > > > > local policy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> This is especially risky when there is the possibility for the > > > >> Session-Reflector to act on packets that do not have any form of > > > >> authentication (i.e., could be spoofed from off-path). But we do not > > > >> mention this risk at all, let alone give guidance on its mitigation. > > > >> (Discussion of the security considerations of unauthenticated > > operation > > > >> would ideally be generalized to all actions/TLVs that have side > > effects, > > > >> not just the specific case of setting the DSCP codepoint.) > > > >> > > > > GIM>> It seems very challenging for a STAMP system to differentiate > > > > between a duplicate and/or out-of-order test packet and a replayed > > packet > > > > because one of the metrics STAMP test measures is the network > > re-ordering > > > > metric per RFC 4737 . We may > > > > recommend that the rate-limiting of test packets be selected > > > > conservatively. > > > > > > > >> > > > >> Section 4.2 > > > >> > > > >> I'd suggest saying that all fields that are not filled are transmitted > > > >> with all bits set to zero. > > > >> > > > > GIM>> Thank you for the helpful suggestion. Appended Section 4.2: > > > > Note that all fields not filled by either a Session-Sender or > > > > Session-Reflector are transmitted with all bits set to zero. > > > > > > > >> > > > >> Section 4.2.1 > > > >> > > > >> o Source MAC Address sub-TLV - is a 12-octet-long sub-TLV. The > > Type > > > >> value is TBA9. The value of the Length field MUST equal to 8. > > > >> The Value field is a 12-octet-long MBZ field that MUST be zeroed > > > >> on transmission and ignored on receipt. > > > >> > > > >> Value should be 8-octets-long, no? > > > >> > > > > GIM>> Thank you for catching it! You are absolutely correct. Fixed this > > > > and a similar in: > > > > o Source EUI-64 Address sub-TLV - is a 12-octet-long sub-TLV that > > > > includes the EUI-64 source MAC address. The Type value is TBA11. > > > > The value of the Length field MUST equal to 8. The Value field > > > > consists of an eight-octet-long EUI-64 field. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Section 4.2.2 > > > >> > > > >> A Session-Sender MAY include the Source MAC Address sub-TLV is the > > > >> Location TLV. If the Session-Reflector receives the Location TLV > > > >> > > > >> nit: s/is/in/ > > > >> > > > > GIM>> Thank you. Fixed (and three more places in the same sub-section). > > > > > > > >> > > > >> Section 4.3 > > > >> > > > >> MUST NOT fill any information fields except for STAMP TLV Flags, > > > >> Type, and Length. All other fields MUST be filled with zeroes The > > > >> > > > >> nit: missing full stop. > > > >> > > > > GIM>> Done. > > > > > > From nobody Tue Nov 10 06:54:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 121D53A0F0C for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 06:54:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DpZ6p80yuItr for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 06:54:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11A3E3A0E7D for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 06:54:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml707-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.206]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4CVrSJ3Txlz67HJd for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 22:52:32 +0800 (CST) Received: from nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.157) by fraeml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 15:54:21 +0100 Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.33) by nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.157) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 22:54:19 +0800 Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) by fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 15:54:17 +0100 From: Giuseppe Fioccola To: Tianran Zhou , wangyali , ippm Thread-Topic: New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01 Thread-Index: AdasYaNf5HuEbcjjTW+88BYR+uS3xgGKy+MgAO2SaiAAMF2+4AAZZr6A Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 14:54:16 +0000 Message-ID: <70e3a94392504029ae56d91dffea3796@huawei.com> References: <1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F405050B14@dggeml524-mbx.china.huawei.com> <63c9adc987084725b84c857533c59b79@huawei.com> <1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F40509C92E@DGGEML504-MBS.china.huawei.com> <45f0c5b5f49b4ed18c41142180a6aeb7@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <45f0c5b5f49b4ed18c41142180a6aeb7@huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.48.216.54] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 14:54:31 -0000 Hi Tianran, Regarding the packet loss, similarly to what you are defining for HbH Delay= TLV, each node of the path could record and write down packet counters (e.= g. alternate marking counts, STAMP session counts,...). In this way you can= identify the intermediate node or link where loss has occurred. Regards, Giuseppe -----Original Message----- From: Tianran Zhou=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 2:57 AM To: wangyali ; Giuseppe Fioccola ; ippm Subject: RE: New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01 Hi Giuseppe, >what about the specification of the HbH also for packet loss? What does the packet loss TLV really mean? I.e., what value or information = should be captured and carried in the container? Thanks, Tianran -----Original Message----- From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of wangyali Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 9:16 AM To: Giuseppe Fioccola ; ippm Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01 Hi Giuseppe, Thanks for your suggestions and comments, all are much appreciated. Please = find inline [Yali]. Thanks, -----Original Message----- From: Giuseppe Fioccola=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2020 5:43 PM To: wangyali ; ippm Subject: RE: New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01 Hi Yali, All, I have read this document and it looks interesting. I have a couple of comments: - The document only describes HbH Delay TLV, what about the specification o= f the HbH also for packet loss? [Yali] I agree with you. In the next version, I will add a section about th= e HbH Packet Loss TLV.=20 - Regarding the IOAM Tracing Data TLV, the STAMP Session-Reflector test pac= ket carries the IOAM tracing data back to the Session-Sender. What about ex= tending this also for Alt Mark? [Yali] I will mention in the next version that in addition to IOAM, other t= elemetry data (e.g. alternate marking) could be transmitted by STAMP option= al TLV extensions. The draft will keep the option open for future augmentat= ions.=20 Regards, Giuseppe -----Original Message----- From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of wangyali Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 2:49 PM To: ippm Subject: [ippm] New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01 Hello WG, Draft about extensions to STAMP enable hop-by-hop OAM data measurement and = collection has been updated, which was presented in IETF108. Questions and = comments are welcome. Because the performance of intermediate nodes and links that STAMP test pac= kets traverse are invisible, to solve this problem, this draft extents opti= onal TLVs to STAMP and inserts IOAM Trace option data in the test packets o= r dispatches test packets to the OAM process at OAM Endpoint. =20 In this case, the STAMP instance does not need to be configured at every in= termediate node to measure the performance of intermediate nodes, which dec= reases the complexity of OAM in large-scale networks. What do you think?=20 Best regards, Yali -----Original Message----- From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 9:03 PM To: wangyali ; Tianran Zhou Subject: New Version Notification for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-= 01.txt A new version of I-D, draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Yali Wang and posted to the IETF reposit= ory. Name: draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions Revision: 01 Title: Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol Extensions for Hop-by-Ho= p OAM Data Collection Document date: 2020-10-27 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 10 URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-e= xtensions-01.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-= extensions/ Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-wang-ippm-stamp= -hbh-extensions Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-exten= sions-01 Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-wang-ippm-stamp-h= bh-extensions-01 Abstract: This document defines optional TLVs which are carried in Simple Two- way Active Measurement Protocol (STAMP) test packets to enhance the STAMP base functions. Such extensions to STAMP enable OAM data measurement and collection at every node and link along a STAMP test packet's delivery path. = =20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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boundary="_000_DM6PR11MB3115E21076C99CDE5D0B4B25BFE90DM6PR11MB3115namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR11MB3115.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b8fd304c-e97d-495c-d66c-08d8858de8b7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Nov 2020 15:33:01.3340 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 24/hir1K6AQbwgiWqxmH+et2cvs0OpGXQGTLaCVQcbud+p9eJt7QTCBLqEiVgcL6IQuanxPM5UXHkanCBcn8iQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR11MB3115 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.12, xch-aln-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-6.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] WG Adoption Call for https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 15:33:26 -0000 --_000_DM6PR11MB3115E21076C99CDE5D0B4B25BFE90DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and p= roviding the comments. Please see replies inline with =85 From: ippm Date: Friday, November 6, 2020 at 11:18 AM To: James Guichard Cc: spring@ietf.org , ippm-chairs@ietf.org , spring-chairs@ietf.org , IETF IPPM WG Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] WG Adoption Call for https://tools.ietf.org/ht= ml/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 Dear Chairs of the SPRING and IPPM WGs, Authors, et al., I've found myself in the situation when two related drafts are in the WG AP= s in the SPRING and IPPM WG (with the possibility that expertise from the t= hird WG, BFD WG, might be desirable to review the "liveness monitoring"). B= ecause these drafts are closely related, I've decided to combine my questio= ns and comments in a single thread. I hope that would be acceptable and con= sidered by the SPRING WG as well as IPPM WG. Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluated by answers= to these three questions: * Is the document(s) reasonably well-written I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology from RFC 4656 = and 5357 and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender and Session= -Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", are used in t= he documents without proper definitions. Other than that both drafts are re= adable and reasonably well-written. We are ok to change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-= Reflector if it helps. There are many existing RFCs that use term =93Link=94 (e.g. RFC 5613, = 5340, 8330, etc.) and term =93Congruent Path=94 (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) witho= ut defining them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Havin= g said that, we can add a reference for them if it helps. * Does the document solve a real problem? No, it appears that these drafts define a new performance measurement proto= col for the purpose of combining OWAMP and TWAMP functionality and adding t= he ability to collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find suf= ficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example= , extending the existing OAM mechanisms like ICMP. There is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as synthet= ic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWAMP= protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packet l= oss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a good option= here. * Is the proposed solution technically viable? There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced by= the protocol on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the proposed= solution. About your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security sec= tion in RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Section= as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in the = domain by the operator for TWAMP. Other than this, I did not find any other= security related issue in your review below. To summarize my review of these two drafts: * these propose a new protocol, not an update or enhancement of the TWA= MP-like protocol; The probe and response messages defined in [RFC 5357] are used for del= ay measurement and synthetic packet loss. The direct-mode packet loss messa= ges are defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm that match these delay measurement mes= sages. As stated, draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm defines =93extensions=94 for TWAMP Ligh= t. * several parts of the proposed protocol, e.g., Zero UDP checksum in IP= v6, require detailed security analysis, which is currently absent; This is specified in RFC 6936 Security Section. We will add reference = to this RFC in our Security Section as well. This is only specific to the U= DP port locally provisioned in the domain by the operator for TWAMP. * I was surprised to find out that draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm is on t= he Informational track even though it is essential to the new protocol as i= t defines its key elements This was to address your previous comment quoted as: =93- as I understand, the draft is applicable to TWAMP Light mode, mentioned in the informational Appendix I in RFC 5357, not the TWAMP protocol itself. Since TWAMP Light is not a standard but its idea is described in the informational text only, I think that the Informational track is more appropriate for this specification.=94 https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/bGTsJmJ5-eC3B-mfDCXAFiCAC3o/ Having said that, we are ok to change to PS. * I believe that draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm should be anchored at I= PPM WG as it does introduce the new PM protocol. The TWAMP Light extension draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm is already in IPPM WG. The= SPRING draft only defines SR PM procedures. Below, please find my detailed comments, questions on these drafts: * draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm I have several questions about the relationships between this draft and App= endix I in RFC 5357 where the idea of a mode known as TWAMP Light has been = mentioned. The nature of the TWAMP Light and what is required to make it a = standard is well-explained in Section 4 of RFC 8545 (apologies for the long quote): "TWAMP Light" is an idea described in Appendix I ("TWAMP Light (Informative)") of [RFC5357]; TWAMP Light includes an unspecified control protocol combined with the TWAMP-Test protocol. In [RFC5357], the TWAMP Light idea was relegated to Appendix I because TWAMP Light failed to meet the requirements for IETF protocols (there are no specifications for negotiating this form of operation and no specifications for mandatory-to-implement security features), as described in Appendix A of this memo. See also [LarsAD] and [TimDISCUSS]. Since the idea of TWAMP Light clearly includes the TWAMP-Test component of TWAMP, it is considered reasonable for future systems to use the TWAMP-Test well-known UDP port (whose reallocated assignment is specified in this document). Clearly, the TWAMP Light idea envisions many components and communication capabilities beyond TWAMP-Test (implementing the security requirements, for example); otherwise, Appendix I of [RFC5357] would be one sentence long (equating TWAMP Light with TWAMP-Test only). Since we don't have an IETF document that addressed these open questions, I= don't think we can have a draft that proposes extensions to a non-standard= mechanism (Appendix is for Informational material, as I understand it) on = the Standard track. This was to address your previous comment quoted as =93- as I understand, the draft is applicable to TWAMP Light mode, mentioned in the informational Appendix I in RFC 5357, not the TWAMP protocol itself. Since TWAMP Light is not a standard but its idea is described in the informational text only, I think that the Informational track is more appropriate for this specification.=94 https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/bGTsJmJ5-eC3B-mfDCXAFiCAC3o/ Having said that, we are ok to change to PS as you mentioned above. BTW, despite only difference of fixed vs. variable length payload in S= TAMP vs. TWAMP Light, the STAMP is a proposed standard as RFC 8762 (and it = uses the same approach of provisioning as defined in this draft). Hence, s= ecurity considerations for STAMP and TWAMP Light are not different. Note th= at both STAMP and TWAMP Light have authenticated messages defined for Secur= ity purpose. Now a number of more specific questions. draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm: * In the Introduction it is stated that: The TWAMP Light [Appendix I in RFC5357] [BBF.TR-390] provides simplified mechanisms for active performance measurement in Customer IP networks by provisioning UDP paths and eliminates the need for control-channel signaling. I can not find where, either Appendix I or TR-390, "eliminated the need for= control-channel signaling". Also, could you point where the referenced doc= uments describe "provisioning UDP paths"? The Appendix I of RFC 5357 has following text. We can reword and match= the exact text if you prefer. =93This example eliminates the need for the TWAMP-Control protocol, and assumes that the Session-Reflector is configured=94 * It appears that the last paragraph in the Introduction describes the = relationship with Appendix I of RFC 5357: The procedure uses the mechanisms defined in [RFC5357] (TWAMP Light) and its extensions for Performance Measurement. I think that the reference must be to Appendix I, not RFC 5357. Also, could= you please specify which extensions of TWAMP Light have been used in this = draft? We can add the Appendix I as reference in the next revision. Extension= s are defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm, we can add this reference. * In Section 2.3 describing the reference model is noted: The probe response message is typically sent to the sender node R1. In which scenarios the reflector acts differently? How such behavior is rel= ated to the behavior of a TWAMP Session-Reflector, as defined in RFC 5357? Do you prefer we remove =93typically=94 from the sentence? * Also in Section 2.3 a Link is mentioned as an element directly connec= ting nodes in the presented reference model. Could you clarify what is a Li= nk? Is it always a physical connection between two systems or a virtual? Both, please see Section 4.1.3. =93Link=94 is well known term used in = many existing RFCs (please see RFC 5613, 5340, 8330). * In Section 3 behavior of the reflector described as ... no PM state for delay or loss measurement need to be created on the reflector node R5. That is in contradiction to the behavior of a TWAMP Session-Reflector as de= fined in RFC 5357. Could you provide a reference to an IETF standard where = this behavior is defined? Also, how, without creating a state at the Sessio= n-Reflector, to achieve one-way delay and synthetic loss measurement on a b= idirectional SR tunnel? Quoting the text from Appendix I in RFC 5357. We can quote the text as= is. =93In the case of TWAMP Light, the Session-Reflector does not necessarily h= ave knowledge of the session state. =93 * Further, in Section 3 the selection of UDP port explained as the foll= owing: As specified in [RFC8545], the reflector supports the destination UDP port 862 for delay measurement probe messages by default. This UDP port however, is not used for loss measurement probe messages. To the best of my understanding, as one of the contributors and Editors of = RFC 8545, it re-allocated UDP port 862 for use by a TWAMP Session-Reflector= without excluding any type of measurement. Besides, in TWAMP delay and pac= ket loss are measured in the same test session, using the same flow of TWAM= P-Test packets. The packet loss in existing RFC 5357 refers to synthetic loss as there= is no support for direct-mode loss in RFC 5357. We can change the text to = clarify as =93This UDP port however, is not used for direct-mode loss measu= rement probe messages.=94 * Then the draft states that The sender uses the UDP port number following the guidelines specified in S= ection 6 in [RFC6335]. Could you point to the guidelines that a user can use when selecting a UDP = port number of a test session? Please see section 6 in [RFC6335]. We can cite the range which will be= the same as used in [RFC8762]. This was also discussed earlier. https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/ONYYhG9Y8sbiNO15bxWIRM9ymEE/ * At the closing of the paragraph, we read that The number of UDP ports with PM functionality needs to be minimized due to limited hardware resources. Does a UDP port number pose PM functionality? How it is assigned to the por= t number? UDP ports are user configured for delay and direct-mode loss PM as des= cribed in Section 3.1. * Following the above-quoted text, in Section 3 is noted: For Performance Measurement, probe query and response messages are sent as following: Could you clarify if the listed further procedures deviate from OWAMP/TWAMP= or follow procedures defined in RFC 4656 and RFC 5357 for Session-Sender a= nd Session-Reflector respectively? Probe messages follow the same procedure as defined in RFC 4656 and RF= C 5357. * for both delay and loss measurements draft requires test packet be tr= ansmitted on a congruent path: the probe messages are sent on the congruent path of the data traffic by the sender node It is not clear what "the congruent path" means. The definition of congruen= cy in geometry tells us that an object B is congruent to object A if it has= the same shape and size, but is allowed to flip, slide or turn. How a path= can be congruent to another path? There are many existing RFCs that use term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 59= 21, 6669) without defining them. I suspect it is because it is well-known t= erm. Having said that, we can add a reference for it if it helps reader. * The last paragraph in Section 3 refers to work on iOAM: The In-Situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (IOAM) mechanisms for SR-MPLS defined in [I-D.gandhi-mpls-ioam-sr] and for SRv6 defined in [I-D.ali-spring-ioam-srv6] are used to carry PM information such as timestamp in-band as part of the data packets, and are outside the scope of this document. Is iOAM in the scope of this specification? What are the relationships betw= een iOAM and draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm? As mentioned in the draft, IOAM is outside the scope. * Section 3.1 presents an example of the provisioning model but puts th= e definition of the provisioning model outside the scope. Is there an accom= panying specification that defines the provisioning model that can be used = in multi-vendor deployment? Could that be YANG data model? What is the rela= tionship with draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang? Would the TWAMP YANG data model be augmented? Yes, this can be Yang model. We can review draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang<= https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-13> and add any miss= ing items in a separate draft. We can also add a reference in this draft. * Section 4.1 states that a new message is introduced to perform the Lo= ss Measurement in this protocol Why the capability of TWAMP to measure the = loss in one-way and two-way is not sufficient? Existing TWAMP messages do not support =93direct-mode=94 loss measurem= ent. We can add =93direct-mode=94 in the text to clarify. * Section 4.1.1 requires that The Destination UDP port cannot be used as Source port, since the message does not have any indication to distinguish between the query and response message. Does that imply that the Destination UDP port used for the Delay measuremen= t is unique throughout the particular domain? This is user-defined and is up to the user what UDP port to provision = in a domain. * Section 4.1.2 of RFC 5357 does not define "the delay measurement mess= age" but refers to the definition of the Session-Sender's test packet in RF= C 4656 OWAMP. Note, that OWAMP and TWAMP are using a single test packet for= mat to perform both delay and packet loss measurement. Ok, we can update the text in the next revision to indicate exact name= from the RFC 4656. We can also add text to include synthetic packet loss. * Can you explain how "the DM probe query message contains the payload = format defined in Section 4.2.1 of [RFC5357]" when the referenced section o= f RFC 5357 defines the format of a Session-Reflector's test packet? We can update the text in the next revision to indicate query format n= ame from RFC 5357. * Can clarify the applicability of RFC 6038 and the symmetrical packet = size? Is it required? Can it be non-symmetrical? Yes. Please see section 4.1.1 and quoted below: =93For symmetrical size query and response messages as defined in [RFC6038]= ,=94 * Can you clarify the use of the timestamp format, NTP or PTPv2? It is = not clear which is the default, mandatory or optional. This is same as TWAMP. There is no change. * Also, is "hardware support in Segment Routing networks" of the PTPv2 = format required, guaranteed, or something else? Hardware timestamps are recommended for SR use-cases. We can change th= e sentence. * Section 4.1.1.1 stated that A separate user-configured destination UDP port is used for the delay measurement in authentication mode due to the different probe message format. Can that be interpreted that there could be concurrent authenticated and un= authenticated test sessions using this protocol? Would different authentica= tion methods require using unique destination UDP port numbers? Yes, and Yes, and these are based on provisioning. * Section 4.1.2 by introducing the dedicated Loss measurement packet fo= rmat, effectively modifies the behavior defined in RFC 5357 for Session-Sen= der and Session-Reflector. But the document does not state that. Can you cl= arify whether this specification changes the behavior of a Session-Sender a= nd Session-Reflector as defined in RFC 4656 and RFC 5357 respectively for t= he support of packet loss measurement? The direct-mode loss defines new procedure for sender/reflector to col= lect traffic counters, as opposed to timestamp. The rest is the same as RFC= 4656 and 5357. * And a similar question about the use of the separate UDP port number = for the authenticated of the packet loss measurement. * A couple of question to the following text in Section 4.1.3: The local and remote IP addresses of the link are used as Source and Destination Addresses. They can also be IPv6 link local address as probe messages are pre- routed. * What are the addresses of a link? I am assuming this well-known (e.g. RFC 2328). * In which scenarios an IPv6 LLA can be used? I am assuming this is well-known (e.g. RFC 5613). * Also, could the use of a routable destination IP address be used a= s a DDOS attack vector? Consider the scenario when an attacker generates SR= -encapsulated packets with the destination IP address other than any of the= SR-terminating nodes. Such a packet will be routed, correct? That does app= ear as a security threat, would you agree? Absolutely do not agree. It is no different than IP routed TWAMP packe= t as defined in [RFC5357]. * Section 4.1.4.2 references Figure 5 that, as I understand it, display= s the format of a probe query message. In figure two references to RFC 5357= are provided - a section that references RFC 4656 OWAMP definition of the = Session-Sender test packet, and a section that defines the Session-Reflecto= r's reflected packet. Which of the two is used for the delay measurement in= the proposed protocol? The probe query packet in the Session-Sender text packet. We can updat= e the name. * Section 4.2.1 states that In one-way measurement mode, the probe response message as defined in Figure 6 is sent back out-of-band to the sender node ... Could you clarify how the responder controls that the response packet is se= nt not in-band but out-of-band? Please refer to section 3.1 in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm. This is = existing behaviour for out-of-band. * How's the method described in Section 4.2.3 is different from the met= hod described in RFC 8403? What is dis= tinctly unique about the loopback mode proposed in the section? There is no mention of Loopback mode or TWAMP / RFC 5357 in RFC 8403. * What is the rationale for setting TTL/Hop Limit fields always to 255 = for IPv4, MPLS, and IPv6 (per Section 4.3.1)? This is as defined in Section 4.2 of RFC 5357 (Bullet 4). * Section 4.3.3 states that a zero-value UDP checksum may be used in so= me scenarios. RFC 8085 allows that but in very specific cases that are docu= mented in detail in Section 3.4.1. Do you believe that the case of this pro= tocol checks all the requirements for allowing the use of Zero UDP checksum= as specified in RFC 8085? Also, I believe that allowing the use of Zero UD= P checksum in some scenarios, this protocol introduces a security threat th= at must be thoroughly analyzed in the Security Considerations section. This is described in RFC 6936. It will be very specific to the UDP por= t provisioned for TWAMP. We will add reference to RFC 6936 in Security Sect= ion. * Section 8 refers to "liveness monitoring of Links and SR Paths". This= appears as the replication of functionality provided by BFD/S-BFD protocol= s. Is such comparison accurate? If it is, shouldn't the proposal be also re= viewed by the BFD WG? TWAMP probe messages are used today for synthetic packet loss which c= an also be used to detect connection loss (performance metric). The section= simply highlights this obvious metric. * I found the Security Section of the proposed protocol inadequately te= rse and missing very important threats that this protocol introduces in the= network. Other than referring RFC 6936 for zero checksum what else is missing? = Otherwise it is no different than RFC 8762 (STAMP). * draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm As I understand it, the motivation for the Loss Measurement mode defined in= this specification is to collect "in-profile" counters. Is that correct? D= o you see as essential for this mode that the query messages are in-band wi= th the flow being profiled? In your opinion, how using an out-of-band metho= d of collecting these counters, e.g., by using ICMP multi-part message exte= nsion per RFC 4884, could affect the accuracy comparing with the method in = this protocol? How the impact changes if extended ICMP messages are in-band= with the profiled flow? As mentioned earlier, I am not sure extending ICMP to do PM is a good = option here. Both TWAMP and OWAMP are widely deployed today for delay and s= ynthetic loss measurement. * Section 3.1 introduces the new field, Sender Control Code. The format= of the packet, as I understand it, is presented in Figure 1. When comparin= g with the format of Session-Sender's test packet defined in RFC 4656 OWAMP= in Section 4.1.2 I've noticed that there are no MBZ fields. Are these intr= oduced by your proposal? It shows the partial message that has new field. We can update it to s= how the full message to avoid such confusion. * Also, it appears that the Sequence Number field in TWAMP Session-Send= er's test packet is absent in Figure 1. Is that intentional? It shows the partial message that has new field. We can update it to s= how the full message to avoid such confusion. Thanks, Rakesh Regards, Greg On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 5:51 AM James Guichard > wrote: Dear WG: This message starts a 3 week WG adoption call for document https://tools.ie= tf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 ending November 12th 2020. Pl= ease note that this document has several changes from v-10 that were reques= ted by the SPRING and IPPM chairs. For this reason, the chairs have extende= d the adoption call for an additional week to allow the WG enough time to r= eview these changes before deciding on WG adoption. Some background: Several review comments were received previously for document https://tools= .ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10. The SPRING and IPPM chair= s considered those comments, and upon review of this version of the documen= t, determined the following: * The SPRING document should describe only the procedures relevant to S= PRING with pointers to non-SPRING document/s that define any extensions. Se= veral extensions including Control Code Field Extension for TWAMP Light Mes= sages, Loss Measurement Query Message Extensions, and Loss Measurement Resp= onse Message Extensions were included in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-= gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10 and should be removed from the SPRING document. * The TWAMP extensions included in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ga= ndhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10 should be described in a new document published i= n the IPPM WG. These conclusions were discussed with the authors of https://tools.ietf.or= g/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10 the result of which is the publica= tion of the following two documents: * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11. The su= bject of this WG adoption call. * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00. This doc= ument will be progressed (if determined by the WG) within the IPPM WG. After review of the SPRING document please indicate support (or not) for WG= adoption to the mailing list. Please also provide comments/reasons for tha= t support (or lack thereof) as silence will not be considered as consent. Finally, the chairs would like to thank the authors for their efforts in th= is matter. Thanks! Jim, Bruno, & Joel _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --_000_DM6PR11MB3115E21076C99CDE5D0B4B25BFE90DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly= reviewing the documents and providing the comments.

    Please see replies inline with <RG>=85<= o:p>

     

    From: ippm <ippm-bounc= es@ietf.org>
    Date: Friday, November 6, 2020 at 11:18 AM
    To: James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>
    Cc: spring@ietf.org <spring@ietf.org>, ippm-chairs@ietf.org &l= t;ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.o= rg>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] WG Adoption Call for https://tools.ietf= .org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11

    Dear Chairs of the SPRING and IPPM WGs, Authors, et = al.,

    I've found myself in the situation when two related = drafts are in the WG APs in the SPRING and IPPM WG (with the possibility th= at expertise from the third WG, BFD WG, might be desirable to review the &q= uot;liveness monitoring"). Because these drafts are closely related, I've decided to combine my questions and comme= nts in a single thread. I hope that would be acceptable and considered by t= he SPRING WG as well as IPPM WG.

    Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can = be evaluated by answers to these three questions:

    • Is the document(s) reasonably well-written

    I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the ter= minology from RFC 4656 and 5357 and introduce their own terminology for Ses= sion-Sender and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "con= gruent paths", are used in the documents without proper definitions. Other than that both drafts are readable and r= easonably well-written.

     

    <RG> We are ok to change Sender to Sess= ion-Sender and Reflector to Session-Reflector if it helps.

    <RG> There are many existing RFCs that = use term =93Link=94 (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340, 8330, etc.) and term =93Congruent= Path=94 (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without defining them. I suspect it is becau= se these are well-known terms. Having said that, we can add a reference for them if it helps.

    • Does the document solve a real problem?

    No, it appears that these drafts define a new perfor= mance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP and TWAMP fun= ctionality and adding the ability to collect counters of "in-profile&q= uot; packets. I couldn't find sufficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the e= xisting OAM mechanisms like ICMP.

     

    <RG> There is a requirement to measure = performance delay as well as synthetic and direct-mode packet loss in segme= nt-routing networks. OWAMP and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed for perf= ormance delay and synthetic packet loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a good option he= re.

    • Is the proposed solution technically viable?

    There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly= the risk introduced by the protocol on network security, to comprehensivel= y evaluate the proposed solution.

    <RG> About your comment on zer= o checksum, this is described in Security section in RFC 6936. We will add = reference to this RFC in our Security Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in the = domain by the operator for TWAMP. Other than this, I did not find any other= security related issue in your review below.

    To summarize my review of these two drafts:

    • these propose a new protocol, not an update or enhancement of the TWAMP-lik= e protocol;

    <RG> The probe and response me= ssages defined in [RFC 5357] are used for delay measurement and synthetic p= acket loss. The direct-mode packet loss messages are defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-twam= p-srpm that match these delay measurement mes= sages. As stated, draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm defines =93extensions=94 for TWAMP Light.

    • several parts of the proposed protocol, e.g., Zero UDP checksum in IPv6, re= quire detailed security analysis, which is currently absent;

    <RG> This is specified in RFC = 6936 Security Section. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Se= ction as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in the domain by the operator for TWAMP.

    • I was surprised to find out that draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm is on th= e Informational track even though it is essential to the new protocol as it= defines its key elements
    <RG> This was to address your previous comment qu=
oted as:
     =93- as I understand, the draft is=
 applicable to TWAMP Light mode,

       mentioned in the informational = Appendix I in RFC 5357, not the TWAMP

       protocol itself. Since TWAMP Li= ght is not a standard but its idea is

       described in the informational = text only, I think that the Informational

      track is more appropriate for this sp= ecification.=94

    https://mailarchive.ietf.or= g/arch/msg/ippm/bGTsJmJ5-eC3B-mfDCXAFiCAC3o/

    <RG> Having said that, we are = ok to change to PS.

    • I believe that draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm should be anchored at IP= PM WG as it does introduce the new PM protocol.

    <RG> The TWAMP L= ight extension = draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm is already in IPPM WG. The SPRING draft only defines SR PM procedures.

     

    Below, please find my detailed comments, questi= ons on these drafts:

    • draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm

    I have several questions about the relationships bet= ween this draft and Appendix I in RFC 5357 where the idea of a mode known a= s TWAMP Light has been mentioned. The nature of the TWAMP Light and what is= required to make it a standard is well-explained in Section 4 of RFC 8545 (apologies for the long= quote):

       "TWAMP Light" is an idea desc= ribed in Appendix I ("TWAMP Light
       (Informative)") of [RFC5357]; TWAMP Light includes an uns= pecified
       control protocol combined with the TWAMP-Test protocol.  = In
       [RFC5357], the TWAMP Light idea was relegated to Appendix I be= cause
       TWAMP Light failed to meet the requirements for IETF protocols= (there
       are no specifications for negotiating this form of operation a= nd no
       specifications for mandatory-to-implement security features), = as
       described in Appendix A of this memo.  See also [LarsAD] = and
       [TimDISCUSS].

       Since the idea of TWAMP Light clearly includes the TWAMP-Test<= br>    component of TWAMP, it is considered reasonable for future sys= tems to
       use the TWAMP-Test well-known UDP port (whose reallocated assi= gnment
       is specified in this document).  Clearly, the TWAMP Light= idea
       envisions many components and communication capabilities beyon= d
       TWAMP-Test (implementing the security requirements, for exampl= e);
       otherwise, Appendix I of [RFC5357] would be one sentence long<= br>    (equating TWAMP Light with TWAMP-Test only).

     

    Since we don't have an IETF document that addressed = these open questions, I don't think we can have a draft that proposes exten= sions to a non-standard mechanism (Appendix is for Informational material, = as I understand it) on the Standard track.

     

    <RG> This was to address your previous comment qu=
oted as
     =93- as I understand, the draft is=
 applicable to TWAMP Light mode,

       mentioned in the informational = Appendix I in RFC 5357, not the TWAMP

       protocol itself. Since TWAMP Li= ght is not a standard but its idea is

       described in the informational = text only, I think that the Informational

       track is more appropriate for t= his specification.=94

    https://mailarchive.ietf.or= g/arch/msg/ippm/bGTsJmJ5-eC3B-mfDCXAFiCAC3o/

    <RG> Having said that, we are = ok to change to PS as you mentioned above.

    <RG> BTW, despite only differe= nce of fixed vs. variable length payload in STAMP vs. TWAMP Light, the STAM= P is a proposed standard as RFC 8762 (and it uses the same approach of provisioning  as defined in this draft). He= nce, security considerations for STAMP and TWAMP Light are not different. N= ote that both STAMP and TWAMP Light have authenticated messages defined for= Security purpose.

    Now a number of more specific questions.<= /p>

    draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm:

    • In the Introduction it is stated that:

      The TWAMP Light [Appendix I in RFC5357] [BBF.= TR-390] provides
       simplified mechanisms for active performance measurement in Cu= stomer
       IP networks by provisioning UDP paths and eliminates the need = for
       control-channel signaling.

    I can not find where, either Appendix I or TR-3= 90, "eliminated the need for control-channel signaling". Also, co= uld you point where the referenced documents describe "provisioning UD= P paths"?

     

    <RG> The Appendix I of RFC 5357 has following tex=
t. We can reword and match the exact text if you prefer.<=
/pre>

     
    

    =93This example eliminates the need=
 for the TWAMP-Control protocol, and
    

       assumes that the Session-Re=
flector is configured=94
    

      

    • 
It appears that the last paragraph in the Introduction describes the relati=
onship with Appendix I of RFC 5357:
    

       The procedure uses the mechanisms defin=
ed in [RFC5357]
    
   (TWAMP Light) and its extensions for Performance Measurement.<=
o:p>
    

    I think that the reference must be to Appendix I, no=
t RFC 5357. Also, could you please specify which extensions of TWAMP Light =
have been used in this draft?
    

    
<RG> We can add the Appendix I as refer=
ence in the next revision. Extensions are defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-twam=
p-srpm, we can add this reference.
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Tue, 10 Nov 2020 16:01:02 +0000 From: "Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi)" To: Greg Mirsky , James Guichard CC: "spring@ietf.org" , "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" , IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: [ippm] [spring] WG Adoption Call for https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 Thread-Index: Adaoaxv73543NQYjR7aQ9fY490xJIQL7TaeAAMgAnhc= Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 16:01:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-CA, en-US Content-Language: en-CA X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [174.112.172.213] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 1bfee53a-6809-4840-cda4-08d88591d2fa x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM5PR1101MB2283: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:7219; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: vrGHdmo4oRTgW+kHQ5avnSH9KDxFngnSUJg2IW7GrpBoNOTLraWo+zE3O9PXGwZQZx78JuTF3157QAIT1UlQ+O9Wy6xLUUwrTyZ1vE2cIVPUFPtzZ2JYCZeuHVfV6W6jUOOsBgJIGQzHqmeTCFEiG9L9BGmq3jPSvSrk4qeMwslvRwW5rlLi1bLxFgdhd8Mko5BuTi7nvr9R6PCi3GKMdpZhpI1xMaFb6bdrGv3MkdV2iKwqIN3t8LF6EvpI+/G0uEwViD+5rn7tK3m8cVPCsoee4yq4CfkgmBaqVQvyWircm9QeyarkDY+XEEN5+NyD9gey+TYl4Qcj9c0E4B4fbnPWKmt7IWkB7n4S4mmzT4jWcmbMniYx1UoG1mTVxBGCcadWx8quKaWswCiadZdZcQ== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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boundary="_000_DM6PR11MB31150631EC8ABD652B97B5FCBFE90DM6PR11MB3115namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR11MB3115.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 1bfee53a-6809-4840-cda4-08d88591d2fa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Nov 2020 16:01:02.8160 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: kCfdqJn97aMKkhLw9R5gEYbHxYuGlBrODMledwg0ORlXMDtKXspMi1t35qTtJunpm0Ib7X/t3qEEdbeco2BNOw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR1101MB2283 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.11, xch-rcd-001.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-12.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] WG Adoption Call for https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 16:01:51 -0000 --_000_DM6PR11MB31150631EC8ABD652B97B5FCBFE90DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and p= roviding the comments. Note that many of the comments here on STAMP draft a= re repeated from the previous comments on the TWAMP Light draft. Please see= replies inline with . The repeated comments are tagged with to = avoid duplicated discussions. From: ippm Date: Friday, November 6, 2020 at 11:18 AM To: James Guichard Cc: spring@ietf.org , ippm-chairs@ietf.org , spring-chairs@ietf.org , IETF IPPM WG Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] WG Adoption Call for https://tools.ietf.org/ht= ml/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 Dear Chairs of the SPRING and IPPM WGs, Authors, et al., I've found myself in the situation when two related drafts are in the WG AP= s in the SPRING and IPPM WG (with the possibility that expertise from the t= hird WG, BFD WG, might be desirable to review the "liveness monitoring"). B= ecause these drafts are closely related, I've decided to combine my questio= ns and comments in a single thread. I hope that would be acceptable and con= sidered by the SPRING WG as well as IPPM WG. Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluated by answers= to these three questions: * Is the document(s) reasonably well-written It was a surprise finding out that both drafts don't use the terminology fr= om RFC 8762 STAMP and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender an= d Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", are = used in the documents without proper definitions. Other than that, both dra= fts are readable. We can change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Refl= ector if it helps. There are many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340= , 8330, etc.) and term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without definin= g them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having said tha= t, we can add a reference for them if it helps. * Does the document solve a real problem? No, it appears that the changes described in these drafts are only to achie= ve in-band collection of counters of "in-profile" packets. Firstly, drafts = don't provide any arguments about why such collection should be performed u= sing the in-band method rather than using the out-of-band collection approa= ch. Secondly, even if there are any benefits of in-band collection, that ca= n be more easily achieved by extending other OAM, e.g., ICMP, tools. There is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as synth= etic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWA= MP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packet= loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a good opti= on here. * Is the proposed solution technically viable? There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced by= the protocol on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the proposed= solution. About your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security s= ection in RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Secti= on as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in th= e domain by the operator for STAMP. Other than this, I did not find any oth= er security related issue in your review below. draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm * Can you define a Link and how it is different from an SR Path? There are many existing RFCs that use term =93Link=94 (e.g. RFC 5613= , 5340, 8330, etc.). Similarly term =93SR Path=94 has been used in existing= RFCs (e.g. 8664). I suspect these are well-known terms. * It is not clear how the destination UDP port numbers are selected. Do= es the draft change procedure defined in Section 4.1 RFC 8762? There is no change. * It is not clear what "the congruent path" means. The definition of th= e congruent in geometry tells that a congruent object has the same shape an= d size, but is allowed to flip, slide or turn. How a path can be congruent = to another path? There are many existing RFCs that use term =93Congruent Path=94 (e.g= . RFC 5921, 6669) without defining them. I suspect it is because it is well= -known term. Having said that, we can add a reference for it if it helps re= ader. * An example of the provisional model is Section 3.1 seems well-suited = for a YANG data model. What changes to the STAMP YANG data model defined in= draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang proposed in these drafts? Yes, this can be Yang model. We can review draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yan= g and add an= y missing items in a separate draft. We can also add a reference in this dr= aft. * In Section 4.1 noted that The probe messages defined in [RFC8762] are used for delay measurement for Links and end-to-end SR Paths including SR Policies. For loss measurement, the probe messages defined in [I-D.gandhi-ippm- stamp-srpm] are used. It necessary to point that RFC 8762 support packet delay and packet loss me= asurements in the same test session using test packets defined in the STAMP= base specification. I believe that the need yet for another method to perf= orm the loss measurement is not sufficiently demonstrated and does appear a= s duplication of functionality already available in STAMP. This is explained in the third paragraph of Section 1. * Could you expand on the reasoning why in Section 4.1.1.1 stated that A separate user-configured destination UDP port is used for the delay measurement in authentication mode due to the different probe message format. I cannot find similar requirement in RFC 8762 and would appreciate a techni= cal explanation of the choice made in this specification. Does RFC 8762 support simultaneous sessions for authenticated and non-= authenticated modes? If yes, can you please point to the procedure in the R= FC 8762 and we can simply refer to it? I am not sure how both packet forma= ts be distinguished by a reflector node when using the same UDP port. * Section 4.2.1 refers to Sender Control Code (though it is defined in = draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. Could you explain why it is important to info= rm the Session-Reflector that the reflected test packet be sent out-of-band= ? What if only in-band return path is available? Would the Session-Reflecto= r discard test packets in such situation? Out-of-band is the current behaviour and there is no change in the e= xisting behaviour. We can clarify in the next revision. * I got confused by the following in Section 4.2.2 In two-way measurement mode, when using a bidirectional path, the probe response message as defined in Figure 6 is sent back to the sender node on the congruent path of the data traffic on the same reverse direction Link or associated reverse SR Policy [I-D.ietf-pce-sr-bidir-path]. If a Path Segment SID associated with the test session, there seems no need= to require the Session-Reflector look for in-band path. Would you agree? No. Existence of Path Segment ID does not mean in-band reply. It may b= e needed for RX counter for direct-mode loss measurement. * How's the method described in Section 4.2.3 is different from the met= hod described in RFC 8403? What is dis= tinctly unique about the loopback mode proposed in the section? There is no mention of Loopback mode or STAMP / TWAMP / RFC 5357 / R= FC 8762 in RFC 8403. Is the "liveness monitoring" functionally identical to path continuity moni= toring provided by BFD? STAMP probe messages are used for synthetic packet loss which can b= e used to detect connection loss. The draft simply highlights this obvious = metric. * It appears that second and third paragraphs on Section 4.3.1 contradi= ct with the first paragraph. Need to point that RFC 8762 does not specify t= he value set in TTL/Hop Limit field, thus reference in the first paragraph = seems misleading. I couldn't find ::FFFF:127/104 range being mentioned in t= he draft. Could you clarify when it is used? We can update the sentence in the first paragraph as following: The TTL field in the IPv4 and MPLS headers of the probe query messages is s= et to 255 [RFC5357] except following two cases. The IPv6 address ::1/128 is mentioned in the draft at couple of places= . We can update the above text. * Section 4.3.3 states that a zero-value UDP checksum may be used in so= me scenarios. RFC 8085 allows that but in very specific cases that are docu= mented in detail in Section 3.4.1. Do you believe that the case of this pro= tocol checks all the requirements for allowing the use of Zero UDP checksum= as specified in RFC 8085? Also, I believe that allowing the use of Zero UD= P checksum in some scenarios, this protocol introduces a security threat th= at must be thoroughly analyzed in the Security Considerations section. This is described in RFC 6936. It will be very specific to the UDP p= ort provisioned for STAMP. We will add reference to RFC 6936 in Security Se= ction. * Section 7, as I understand it, suggests that performance measurement = can be combined with "liveness monitoring", i.e.path continuity monitoring.= How fast path failure detection you expect in such combination? How it is = comparable to the the failure detection time guaranteed using BFD? STAMP probe messages are used for synthetic packet loss which can b= e used to detect connection loss (performance metric). The draft simply hig= hlights this obvious metric. draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm * Introduction states that The STAMP message with a TLV for "direct measurement" can be used for combined Delay + Loss measurement [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv]. In fact, that is not accurate. RFC 8762 which provides the base specificati= on of the STAMP protocol already supports packet delay and packet loss (a.k= .a. synthetic packet loss) measurement. Ok, we can update the text to indicate synthetic loss. * Further, the draft concludes that However, in order to use only for loss measurement purpose, it requires the node to support the delay measurement messages and support timestamp for these messages (which may also require clock synchronization). I disagree that the the clock synchronization is required for STAMP. It is = recommended for one-way delay measurement but even without the clock synchr= onization STAMP supports the round-trip delay measurement and one-way delay= variation can be calculated. We can update text to : (which requires clock synchronization for one-= way delay measurement). * The conclusion on Introduction is, in my view, misleading as the prop= osed solution is not an extension of STAMP but update of RFC 8762. And sinc= e this is changes the foundation of RFC 8762 that specifies active two-way = performance measurement protocol, another method for collecting counters an= d/or other telemetry information should be sought. For example, ICMP using = multi-part message extensions, as defined in RFC 4884. As mentioned earlier, I am not sure extending ICMP to do PM is a goo= d option here. Thanks, Rakesh Regards, Greg On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 5:52 AM James Guichard > wrote: Dear WG: This message starts a 3 week WG adoption call for https://tools.ietf.org/ht= ml/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03, ending November 12th 2020. Please not= e that this document has several changes from v-02 that were requested by t= he SPRING and IPPM chairs. For this reason, the chairs have extended the ad= option call for an additional week to allow the WG enough time to review th= ese changes before deciding on WG adoption. Some background: Several review comments were received previously for document https://tools= .ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-02. The SPRING and IPPM chair= s considered those comments, and upon review of this version of the documen= t, determined the following: * The SPRING document should describe only the procedures relevant to S= PRING with pointers to non-SPRING document/s that define any extensions. Se= veral extensions including Control Code Field Extension for STAMP Messages,= Loss Measurement Query Message Extensions, Loss Measurement Response Messa= ge Extensions, Node Address TLV Extensions, and Return Path TLV Extensions = were included in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm= -02 and should be removed from the SPRING document. * The STAMP extensions included in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ga= ndhi-spring-stamp-srpm-02 should be described in a new document published i= n the IPPM WG. These conclusions were discussed with the authors of https://tools.ietf.org= /html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-02 the result of which is the publicat= ion of the following two documents: * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03. The su= bject of this WG adoption call. * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00. This doc= ument will be progressed (if determined by the WG) within the IPPM WG. After review of the SPRING document please indicate support (or not) for WG= adoption to the mailing list. Please also provide comments/reasons for tha= t support (or lack thereof) as silence will not be considered as consent. Finally, the chairs would like to thank the authors for their efforts in th= is matter. Thanks! Jim, Bruno, & Joel _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --_000_DM6PR11MB31150631EC8ABD652B97B5FCBFE90DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly= reviewing the documents and providing the comments. Note that many of the = comments here on STAMP draft are repeated from the previous comments on the= TWAMP Light draft. Please see replies inline with <RG>. The repeated comments are tagged with <RG00>= to avoid duplicated discussions.

     

    From: ippm <ippm-bounc= es@ietf.org>
    Date: Friday, November 6, 2020 at 11:18 AM
    To: James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>
    Cc: spring@ietf.org <spring@ietf.org>, ippm-chairs@ietf.org &l= t;ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.o= rg>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] WG Adoption Call for https://tools.ietf= .org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03

    Dear Chairs of the SPRING and IPPM WGs, Authors, et = al.,

    I've found myself in the situation when two related = drafts are in the WG APs in the SPRING and IPPM WG (with the possibility th= at expertise from the third WG, BFD WG, might be desirable to review the &q= uot;liveness monitoring"). Because these drafts are closely related, I've decided to combine my questions and comme= nts in a single thread. I hope that would be acceptable and considered by t= he SPRING WG as well as IPPM WG.

    Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can = be evaluated by answers to these three questions:

    • Is the document(s) reasonably well-written

    It was a surprise finding out that both drafts = don't use the terminology from RFC 8762 STAMP and introduce their own termi= nology for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Li= nks, "congruent paths", are used in the documents without proper definitions. Other than that, both drafts are rea= dable.

     

    <RG00> We can ch= ange Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Reflector if it help= s.

    <RG00> There are= many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340, 8330, etc.) an= d term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without defining them. I suspec= t it is because these are well-known terms. Having said that, we can add a reference for them if it helps.<= /span>

    • Does the document solve a real problem?

    No, it appears that the changes described in these d= rafts are only to achieve in-band collection of counters of "in-profil= e" packets. Firstly, drafts don't provide any arguments about why such= collection should be performed using the in-band method rather than using the out-of-band collection approach. Secondly, ev= en if there are any benefits of in-band collection, that can be more easily= achieved by extending other OAM, e.g., ICMP, tools.

     

    <RG00> There is = a requirement to measure performance delay as well as synthetic and direct-= mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWAMP protocols are= widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packet loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for = LM is a good option here.

    • Is the proposed solution technically viable?

    There are too many un= addressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced by the protocol on netw= ork security, to comprehensively evaluate the proposed solution.=

    <RG00> About your comment on z= ero checksum, this is described in Security section in RFC 6936. We will ad= d reference to this RFC in our Security Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in the = domain by the operator for STAMP. Other than this, I did not find any other= security related issue in your review below.

    draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm

    • Can you define a Link and how it is different from an SR Path?

    <RG00> There are many existing= RFCs that use term =93Link=94 (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340, 8330, etc.). Similarly= term =93SR Path=94 has been used in existing RFCs (e.g. 8664). I suspect these are well-known terms.

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boundary="_005_DM6PR11MB311560C0CE1B408C922940F4BFE90DM6PR11MB3115namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR11MB3115.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 17de3784-84a1-4ed0-366c-08d885933671 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Nov 2020 16:10:59.1961 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 8v0nSvErY60m0MqFH0vVpGh4OPJ+dlY48JmeEX6mKpJWWIMwmiBfAGrJ+VEu1J2xQoKcUo4XiC8ig1k1yLMfKw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR11MB3372 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.11, xch-rcd-001.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-10.cisco.com Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 09:12:16 -0800 Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 16:11:16 -0000 --_005_DM6PR11MB311560C0CE1B408C922940F4BFE90DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DM6PR11MB311560C0CE1B408C922940F4BFE90DM6PR11MB3115namp_" --_000_DM6PR11MB311560C0CE1B408C922940F4BFE90DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and p= roviding the comments. Attached please find the email replies to your revi= ew sent earlier. The replies are copied inline below for convenience, tagg= ed with . From: ippm Date: Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM To: Tommy Pauly Cc: IPPM Chairs , spring-chairs@ietf.org , IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG community, I've reviewed these drafts and have some comments to share. Below, please f= ind my thoughts on whether these drafts can be adopted. More specific comme= nts on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft and its a= ccompanying draft targetted to the SPRING WG) are in the attached documents= . Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluated by answers= to these three questions: =95 Is the document(s) reasonably well-written I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology from RFCs 4656= /5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender = and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", ar= e used in the documents without proper definitions. Other than that both dr= afts are readable and reasonably well-written. We can change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Refl= ector if it helps. There are many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340= , 8330, etc.) and term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without definin= g them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having said tha= t, we can add a reference for them if it helps. =95 Does the document solve a real problem? No, it appears that both TWAMP and STAMP drafts define a new performance = measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/TWAMP and STAMP fun= ctionality in the respective drafts, and adding the ability to collect coun= ters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find sufficient technical argument= s for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing O= AM mechanisms like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884. There is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as synth= etic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWA= MP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packet= loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a good opti= on here. =95 Is the proposed solution technically viable? There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced by= the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the propose= d solutions. About your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security s= ection in RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Secti= on as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in th= e domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other than this, I did n= ot find any other security related issue in your review. Thanks, Rakesh Regards, Greg On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly > wrote: Hello IPPM, For the past few meetings, we=92ve had updates on the work in the SPRING WG= that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making exte= nsions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it= would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in = the IPPM WG. As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption for draft-gandhi= -ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. The documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 The related SPRING documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether or not y= ou believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Pl= ease provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mo= nday, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --_000_DM6PR11MB311560C0CE1B408C922940F4BFE90DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Thank you Greg for tak= ing time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and providing the comments.=  Attached please find the email replies to your review sent earlier. =  The replies are copied inline below for convenience, tagged with <RG00>.

     

     

    From: ippm <ippm-bounc= es@ietf.org>
    Date: Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM
    To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org= <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf= .org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG community,=

    I've reviewed these drafts and have some comments to= share. Below, please find my thoughts on whether these drafts can be adopt= ed. More specific comments on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-= related draft and its accompanying draft targetted to the SPRING WG) are in the attached documents.=

     

    Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document = can be evaluated by answers to these three questions:<= /o:p>

    =B7  Is the document(s) reasonably well-written=

    I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the= terminology from RFCs 4656/5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own term= inology for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", are used in th= e documents without proper definitions. Other than that both drafts are rea= dable and reasonably well-written.

     

    <RG00> We can ch= ange Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Reflector if it help= s. 

    <RG00> There are= many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340, 8330, etc.) an= d term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without defining them. I suspec= t it is because these are well-known terms. Having said that, we can add a reference for them if it helps.

     

    =B7  Does the document solve a real problem?

    No, it appears that  both TWAMP and STAMP drafts  d= efine a new performance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/= TWAMP and STAMP functionality in the respective drafts, and adding the abil= ity to collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find = sufficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing OAM mechanisms= like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884.

     

    <RG00> There is = a requirement to measure performance delay as well as synthetic and direct-= mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWAMP protocols are= widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packet loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for = LM is a good option here.

     

    =B7  Is the proposed solution technically viable?

    There are too many unaddressed aspects, particul= arly the risk introduced by the protocols on network security, to comprehen= sively evaluate the proposed solutions.

     

    <RG00> About you= r comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security section in RFC 69= 36. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Section as well. This= is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in the domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other = than this, I did not find any other security related issue in your review.<= o:p>

     

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

     

     

    Regards,

    Greg

     <= /span>

     

     <= /span>

     

    On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly <tpa= uly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.= org> wrote:

    Hello IPPM,

     

    For the past few meetings, we=92ve had updates on th= e work in the SPRING WG that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documen= ts ended up making extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING a= nd IPPM decided that it would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in the IPPM WG.

     

    As such, we are starting a Working Group call for ad= option for draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-sr= pm.

     

    Please provide your feedback on these documents, and= state whether or not you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by rep= lying to this email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF = 109 meeting week, on Monday, November 16.

     

    Best,

    Tommy & Ian

    _______________________________________________
    ippm mailing list
    ippm@ietf.org
    ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

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<20201006190630.GK89563@kduck.mit.edu> <20201110052224.GF39170@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20201110052224.GF39170@kduck.mit.edu> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 10:08:50 -0800 Message-ID: To: Benjamin Kaduk Cc: Martin Duke , IPPM Chairs , draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv@ietf.org, The IESG , Yali Wang , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c8500105b3c492b4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 18:09:07 -0000 --000000000000c8500105b3c492b4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Ben, thank you for the discussion and thoughtful suggestions. Please find my answers and notes in-line below tagged GIM>>. Regards, Greg On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 9:22 PM Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > A timely reminder; as it happens this was on my list to look at today as > well :) > > I'm happy to report that the editor's copy looks to resolve my Discuss > points on the -09; thank you! Adding the Reverse Path field to indicate > that the requested DSCP could not be used seems to be a fairly elegant > approach (since we have bits to spare). > GIM>> Thank you for your kind words. > > The other changes look good, too, and pick up almost all my other comments. > That said, I couldn't (quickly) find anything to indicate that we had > already > talked about my top-level comment point regarding the protection of the > HMAC TLV and the potential for replayed packets. While I recognize that > there is a sequence number in the base STAMP packet format, STAMP itself > does not seem to make many requirements on, e.g., processing packets in > sequence number order or rejecting very old packets. Since STAMP is a > measurement protocol, I don't think we would need to change much of the > STAMP behavior just because we can get some moderate level of > action/information from the Session-Reflector (or just because the > packet is authenticated by the HMAC, not that such reasoning would make > much sense). AFAICT, though, we should have some caveat in the security > considerations that while the HMAC TLV protects the integrity of the > extensions, it does not protect against replay. > GIM>> I propose to update the first paragraph in the Security Considerations section: OLD TEXT: This document defines extensions to STAMP [RFC8762] and inherits all the security considerations applicable to the base protocol. Additionally, the HMAC TLV is defined in this document to protect the integrity of optional STAMP extensions. The use of HMAC TLV is discussed in detail in Section 4.8. NEW TEXT: This document defines extensions to STAMP [RFC8762] and inherits all the security considerations applicable to the base protocol. Additionally, the HMAC TLV is defined in this document. Though the HMAC TLV protects the integrity of STAMP extensions; it does not protect against a replay attack. The use of HMAC TLV is discussed in detail in Section 4.8. Does the update address your concern? > > I'm happy to approve posting of a -10 during the submissions blackout > if that will help get things moving again. > GIM>> Thank you for your kind offer. If the update listed above is acceptable, I'll post -10 once the submission opens. > > Thanks, and sorry again for the slowness of my responses on this one. > > -Ben > > On Mon, Nov 09, 2020 at 02:08:37PM -0800, Martin Duke wrote: > > Ping? > > > > On Tue, Oct 6, 2020 at 12:06 PM Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > > > > > Hmm, my notes have this one as waiting on me to look at the latest > updates, > > > though there are a few other documents currently in front of it in my > > > priority queue. > > > > > > -Ben > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 06, 2020 at 12:04:28PM -0700, Martin Duke wrote: > > > > I believe the current status of this is that Ben is awaiting another > > > > version of this draft to resolve his DISCUSS. If anyone has a > different > > > > understanding, please say so. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 12:44 PM Greg Mirsky > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Ben, > > > > > thank you for your comments and suggestions, all are much > appreciated. > > > > > Please find my notes in-lined below tagged by GIM>>. Attached are > the > > > diff > > > > > and the new working version of the draft. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 8:55 PM Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker < > > > > > noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > > > > >> draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-09: Discuss > > > > >> > > > > >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to > all > > > > >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut > > > this > > > > >> introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Please refer to > > > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > > > >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found > here: > > > > >> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv/ > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> DISCUSS: > > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> > > > > >> Thanks for all the updates; we've made good progress. > > > > >> > > > > >> I think we're still not converged on the DSCP handling, though. I > > > have > > > > >> a bit more exposition in the COMMENT section, but in short, my > > > > >> understanding is that we're setting up a session-reflector to > incur > > > > >> unbounded levels of risk with hard protocol requirements. I > think we > > > > >> need to provide a way to bound that risk, for example by allowing > the > > > > >> Session-Reflector to selectively choose to treat the CoS TLV as > > > > >> unimplemented (set the U flag in its reflected packet) or some > other > > > > >> mechanism for local policy to filter what DSCP codepoints are set > in > > > > >> reflected packets (ideally, indicating that the policy made a > change). > > > > >> > > > > > GIM>> Thank you for pointing to the inter-QoS domain scenario. > > > Clearly, it > > > > > must be handled with more caution. Using the U flag is a very > > > interesting > > > > > approach. But wouldn't the Session-Sender skip the CoS TLV in the > > > reflected > > > > > packet? As a result, we may not retrieve information about the CoS > > > mapping > > > > > in the forward direction, i.e., towards the Session-Reflector. And > it > > > might > > > > > be difficult for an operator to recognize whether the > Session-Reflector > > > > > doesn't support the particular CoS or STAMP extensions altogether. > I > > > would > > > > > propose a new field being added in the CoS TLV: > > > > > > > > > > - RP (Reverse Path) - is a two-bit-long field. A > Session-Sender > > > > > MUST set the value of the RP field to 0 on transmission. > > > > > > > > > > And further in the section another update: > > > > > A STAMP Session-Reflector that receives a test packet with the > CoS > > > > > TLV MUST include the CoS TLV in the reflected test packet. > Also, > > > the > > > > > Session-Reflector MUST copy the value of the DSCP and ECN > fields of > > > > > the IP header of the received STAMP test packet into the DSCP2 > field > > > > > in the reflected test packet. Finally, the Session-Reflector > MUST > > > > > use the local policy to verify whether the CoS corresponding to > the > > > > > value of the DSCP1 field is permitted in the domain. If it is, > the > > > > > Session-Reflectorset MUST set the DSCP field's value in the IP > > > header > > > > > of the reflected test packet equal to the value of the DSCP1 > field > > > of > > > > > the received test packet. Otherwise, the Session-Reflector > MUST use > > > > > the DSCP value of the received STAMP packet and set the value > of the > > > > > RP field to 1. Upon receiving the reflected packet, if the > value of > > > > > the RP field is 0, the Session-Sender will save the DSCP and ECN > > > > > values for analysis of the CoS in the reverse direction. If the > > > > > value of the RP field in the received reflected packet is 1, > only > > > CoS > > > > > in the forward direction can be analyzed. > > > > > > > > > > Would these updates address your concern? > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> Also, there's a bit of fallout from the flags reworking that's > left to > > > > >> cleanup in Section 4: we now have the Session-Sender set the U > flag to > > > > >> 1, so this text no longer makes sense: > > > > >> > > > > >> % A STAMP system, i.e., either a Session-Sender or a > > > Session-Reflector, > > > > >> % that has received a STAMP test packet with extension TLVs MUST > > > > >> % validate each TLV: > > > > >> % > > > > >> % If the U flag is set, the STAMP system MUST skip the > processing > > > of > > > > >> % the TLV. > > > > >> > > > > >> I think it should just apply to the Session-Sender for this case > -- > > > the > > > > >> Session-Reflector doesn't need to check the received U flag, > since the > > > > >> Session-Sender will not be generating TLVs it does not understand. > > > > >> (Whether or not to keep the behavior for the M and I flags as > applying > > > > >> to both Session-Sender and Session-Reflector vs. just > Session-Sender > > > > >> does not immediately seem to be of much consequence. > > > > >> > > > > > GIM>> Thank you for catching this. Indeed, that brakes STAMP with > > > > > extensions. I think that though checking M and I flags of a > > > > > Session-Reflector should not do any harm, it doesn't seem to have > any > > > > > benefits. Hence we may remove the Session-Reflector from the > sentence > > > and > > > > > the updated introduction to the flag processing reads like below: > > > > > A STAMP Session-Sender that has received a reflected STAMP test > > > > > packet with extension TLVs MUST validate each TLV: > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> COMMENT: > > > > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> > > > > >> My most significant remaining comments are on the Security > > > > >> Considerations (Section 6): > > > > >> > > > > >> The security of the HMAC mechanism is not complete, since it is > > > > >> susceptible to replay attack. As such, when HMAC is in use, it is > > > > >> important to check that the received sequence numbers are (at > least > > > > >> mostly) monotonic and to detect replays. While replayed packets > do > > > not > > > > >> always indicate an attack (depending on the network technology) > they > > > are > > > > >> still a noteworthy condition, and we should say something about > > > whether > > > > >> we expect to produce a response to each received instance or to > > > suppress > > > > >> replies to replayed input. > > > > >> > > > > > GIM>> Is there a reliable mechanism to distinguish between an > > > out-of-order > > > > > duplicated packet and a replayed packet? I've checked RFC 5357 > TWAMP > > > for > > > > > any suggestion and believe that there is no special consideration > by a > > > > > Session-Reflector for an out-of-order duplicated packet. The TWAMP > > > > > Session-Reflector does not monitor whether the sequence numbers of > the > > > > > received test packets are in the monotonically increasing sequence. > > > STAMP > > > > > is designed to be comparable with TWAMP and have some level of > > > > > interoperability. Hence, discarding what appears as a replayed > packet > > > at a > > > > > STAMP Session-Reflector might be less desirable behavior. If we > follow > > > > > TWAMP's behavior, what else can be done at the Session-Reflector to > > > > > strengthen the security? > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> Monitoring and optional control of DSCP do not appear to > introduce > > > > >> any additional security threat to hosts that communicate with > STAMP > > > > >> as defined in [RFC8762]. As this specification defined the > > > mechanism > > > > >> to test DSCP mapping, this document inherits all the security > > > > >> > > > > >> I'm afraid I still don't understand the reasoning here. In my > > > > >> understanding, the risk stems from the semantics of the DCSP field > > > being > > > > >> (for at least some codepoints) site-local, there not being a > guarantee > > > > >> that the session-sender and session-reflector are on the same > network > > > > >> (and thus, using the same DSCP semantics), and the hard > requirement > > > for > > > > >> the Session-Reflector to set the DCSP value indicated by the > > > > >> Session-Sender. A mechanism for a remote entity to induce > generation > > > of > > > > >> local packets with unspecified semantics is a risk that cannot be > > > > >> qualified at protocol-design time, since the possible outcomes are > > > > >> inherently unspecified. This is analogous to the situation with > > > > >> undefined behavior in programming languages like C -- the > programmer > > > is > > > > >> flat-out required to avoid it, because literally anything could go > > > wrong > > > > >> if undefined behavior is triggered. > > > > >> > > > > > GIM>> I agree that the inter-QoS domain case requires more > > > consideration > > > > > in the Security section. I propose the updated text below: > > > > > > > > > > As this specification defined the mechanism to test DSCP > mapping, > > > > > this document inherits all the security considerations > discussed in > > > > > [RFC2474]. Monitoring and optional control of DSCP using the > CoS > > > TLV > > > > > may be used across the Internet so that the Session-Sender and > the > > > > > Session-Reflector are located in domains that use different CoS > > > > > profiles. Thus, it is essential that an operator verifies the > set > > > of > > > > > CoS values that are used in the Session-Reflector's domain. > Also, > > > an > > > > > implementation of a Session-Reflector SHOULD support a local > policy > > > > > to confirm whether the value sent by the Session-Sender can be > used > > > > > as the value of the DSCP field. Section 4.4 defines the use of > that > > > > > local policy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> This is especially risky when there is the possibility for the > > > > >> Session-Reflector to act on packets that do not have any form of > > > > >> authentication (i.e., could be spoofed from off-path). But we do > not > > > > >> mention this risk at all, let alone give guidance on its > mitigation. > > > > >> (Discussion of the security considerations of unauthenticated > > > operation > > > > >> would ideally be generalized to all actions/TLVs that have side > > > effects, > > > > >> not just the specific case of setting the DSCP codepoint.) > > > > >> > > > > > GIM>> It seems very challenging for a STAMP system to differentiate > > > > > between a duplicate and/or out-of-order test packet and a replayed > > > packet > > > > > because one of the metrics STAMP test measures is the network > > > re-ordering > > > > > metric per RFC 4737 . We may > > > > > recommend that the rate-limiting of test packets be selected > > > > > conservatively. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> Section 4.2 > > > > >> > > > > >> I'd suggest saying that all fields that are not filled are > transmitted > > > > >> with all bits set to zero. > > > > >> > > > > > GIM>> Thank you for the helpful suggestion. Appended Section 4.2: > > > > > Note that all fields not filled by either a Session-Sender or > > > > > Session-Reflector are transmitted with all bits set to zero. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> Section 4.2.1 > > > > >> > > > > >> o Source MAC Address sub-TLV - is a 12-octet-long sub-TLV. > The > > > Type > > > > >> value is TBA9. The value of the Length field MUST equal to > 8. > > > > >> The Value field is a 12-octet-long MBZ field that MUST be > zeroed > > > > >> on transmission and ignored on receipt. > > > > >> > > > > >> Value should be 8-octets-long, no? > > > > >> > > > > > GIM>> Thank you for catching it! You are absolutely correct. Fixed > this > > > > > and a similar in: > > > > > o Source EUI-64 Address sub-TLV - is a 12-octet-long sub-TLV > that > > > > > includes the EUI-64 source MAC address. The Type value is > TBA11. > > > > > The value of the Length field MUST equal to 8. The Value > field > > > > > consists of an eight-octet-long EUI-64 field. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Section 4.2.2 > > > > >> > > > > >> A Session-Sender MAY include the Source MAC Address sub-TLV is > the > > > > >> Location TLV. If the Session-Reflector receives the Location > TLV > > > > >> > > > > >> nit: s/is/in/ > > > > >> > > > > > GIM>> Thank you. Fixed (and three more places in the same > sub-section). > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> Section 4.3 > > > > >> > > > > >> MUST NOT fill any information fields except for STAMP TLV > Flags, > > > > >> Type, and Length. All other fields MUST be filled with zeroes > The > > > > >> > > > > >> nit: missing full stop. > > > > >> > > > > > GIM>> Done. > > > > > > > > > --000000000000c8500105b3c492b4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Ben,
    thank you for the discussion = and thoughtful suggestions. Please find my answers and notes in-line below = tagged GIM>>.

    Regards,
    Greg
    <= /div>
    O= n Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 9:22 PM Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
    A timely reminder; as it happens this was on my list to= look at today as
    well :)

    I'm happy to report that the editor's copy looks to resolve my Disc= uss
    points on the -09; thank you!=C2=A0 Adding the Reverse Path field to indica= te
    that the requested DSCP could not be used seems to be a fairly elegant
    approach (since we have bits to spare).
    GIM>> Th= ank you for your kind words.=C2=A0

    The other changes look good, too, and pick up almost all my other comments.=
    That said, I couldn't (quickly) find anything to indicate that we had a= lready
    talked about my top-level comment point regarding the protection of the
    HMAC TLV and the potential for replayed packets.=C2=A0 While I recognize th= at
    there is a sequence number in the base STAMP packet format, STAMP itself does not seem to make many requirements on, e.g., processing packets in
    sequence number order or rejecting very old packets.=C2=A0 Since STAMP is a=
    measurement protocol, I don't think we would need to change much of the=
    STAMP behavior just because we can get some moderate level of
    action/information from the Session-Reflector (or just because the
    packet is authenticated by the HMAC, not that such reasoning would make
    much sense).=C2=A0 AFAICT, though, we should have some caveat in the securi= ty
    considerations that while the HMAC TLV protects the integrity of the
    extensions, it does not protect against replay.
    GIM>= ;> I propose to update the first paragraph in the Security Consideration= s section:
    OLD TEXT:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document defines exte= nsions to STAMP [RFC8762] and inherits all
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0the security con= siderations applicable to the base protocol.
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0Additionally, = the HMAC TLV is defined in this document to protect the
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0int= egrity of optional STAMP extensions.=C2=A0 The use of HMAC TLV is
    = =C2=A0 =C2=A0discussed in detail in Section 4.8.
    NEW TEXT:
    = =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document defines extensions to STAMP [RFC8762] and inheri= ts all
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0the security considerations applicable to the base p= rotocol.
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0Additionally, the HMAC TLV is defined in this docu= ment.=C2=A0 Though the
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0HMAC TLV protects the integrity of S= TAMP extensions; it does not
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0protect against a replay attac= k.=C2=A0 The use of HMAC TLV is discussed in
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0detail in= Section 4.8.
    Does the update address your concern?=C2=A0

    I'm happy to approve posting of a -10 during the submissions blackout if that will help get things moving again.
    GIM>>= Thank you for your kind offer. If the update listed above is acceptable, I= 'll post -10 once the submission opens.=C2=A0

    Thanks, and sorry again for the slowness of my responses on this one.

    -Ben

    On Mon, Nov 09, 2020 at 02:08:37PM -0800, Martin Duke wrote:
    > Ping?
    >
    > On Tue, Oct 6, 2020 at 12:06 PM Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
    >
    > > Hmm, my notes have this one as waiting on me to look at the lates= t updates,
    > > though there are a few other documents currently in front of it i= n my
    > > priority queue.
    > >
    > > -Ben
    > >
    > > On Tue, Oct 06, 2020 at 12:04:28PM -0700, Martin Duke wrote:
    > > > I believe the current status of this is that Ben is awaiting= another
    > > > version of this draft to resolve his DISCUSS. If anyone has = a different
    > > > understanding, please say so.
    > > >
    > > > On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 12:44 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>= ;
    > > wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > Hi Ben,
    > > > > thank you for your comments and suggestions, all are mu= ch appreciated.
    > > > > Please find my notes in-lined below tagged by GIM>&g= t;. Attached are the
    > > diff
    > > > > and the new working version of the draft.
    > > > >
    > > > > Regards,
    > > > > Greg
    > > > >
    > > > > On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 8:55 PM Benjamin Kaduk via Datat= racker <
    > > > > n= oreply@ietf.org> wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > >> Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot pos= ition for
    > > > >> draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-09: Discuss
    > > > >>
    > > > >> When responding, please keep the subject line intac= t and reply to all
    > > > >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (F= eel free to cut
    > > this
    > > > >> introductory paragraph, however.)
    > > > >>
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Please refer to
    > > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/stateme= nt/discuss-criteria.html
    > > > >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT= positions.
    > > > >>
    > > > >>
    > > > >> The document, along with other ballot positions, ca= n be found here:
    > > > >> https://da= tatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv/
    > > > >>
    > > > >>
    > > > >>
    > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------= -------------------
    > > > >> DISCUSS:
    > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------= -------------------
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Thanks for all the updates; we've made good pro= gress.
    > > > >>
    > > > >> I think we're still not converged on the DSCP h= andling, though.=C2=A0 I
    > > have
    > > > >> a bit more exposition in the COMMENT section, but i= n short, my
    > > > >> understanding is that we're setting up a sessio= n-reflector to incur
    > > > >> unbounded levels of risk with hard protocol require= ments.=C2=A0 I think we
    > > > >> need to provide a way to bound that risk, for examp= le by allowing the
    > > > >> Session-Reflector to selectively choose to treat th= e CoS TLV as
    > > > >> unimplemented (set the U flag in its reflected pack= et) or some other
    > > > >> mechanism for local policy to filter what DSCP code= points are set in
    > > > >> reflected packets (ideally, indicating that the pol= icy made a change).
    > > > >>
    > > > > GIM>> Thank you for pointing to the inter-QoS dom= ain scenario.
    > > Clearly, it
    > > > > must be handled with more caution. Using the U flag is = a very
    > > interesting
    > > > > approach. But wouldn't the Session-Sender skip the = CoS TLV in the
    > > reflected
    > > > > packet? As a result, we may not retrieve information ab= out the CoS
    > > mapping
    > > > > in the forward direction, i.e., towards the Session-Ref= lector. And it
    > > might
    > > > > be difficult for an operator to recognize whether the S= ession-Reflector
    > > > > doesn't support the particular CoS or STAMP extensi= ons altogether. I
    > > would
    > > > > propose a new field being added in the CoS TLV:
    > > > >
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -=C2=A0 =C2=A0 RP (Reverse Path) - is a tw= o-bit-long field.=C2=A0 A Session-Sender
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MUST set the value of the RP = field to 0 on transmission.
    > > > >
    > > > > And further in the section another update:
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A STAMP Session-Reflector that receives a = test packet with the CoS
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 TLV MUST include the CoS TLV in the reflec= ted test packet.=C2=A0 Also,
    > > the
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Session-Reflector MUST copy the value of t= he DSCP and ECN fields of
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the IP header of the received STAMP test p= acket into the DSCP2 field
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the reflected test packet.=C2=A0 Finall= y, the Session-Reflector MUST
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 use the local policy to verify whether the= CoS corresponding to the
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 value of the DSCP1 field is permitted in t= he domain.=C2=A0 If it is, the
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Session-Reflectorset MUST set the DSCP fie= ld's value in the IP
    > > header
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the reflected test packet equal to the = value of the DSCP1 field
    > > of
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the received test packet.=C2=A0 Otherwise,= the Session-Reflector MUST use
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the DSCP value of the received STAMP packe= t and set the value of the
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 RP field to 1.=C2=A0 Upon receiving the re= flected packet, if the value of
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the RP field is 0, the Session-Sender will= save the DSCP and ECN
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 values for analysis of the CoS in the reve= rse direction.=C2=A0 If the
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 value of the RP field in the received refl= ected packet is 1, only
    > > CoS
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the forward direction can be analyzed.<= br> > > > >
    > > > > Would these updates address your concern?
    > > > >
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Also, there's a bit of fallout from the flags r= eworking that's left to
    > > > >> cleanup in Section 4: we now have the Session-Sende= r set the U flag to
    > > > >> 1, so this text no longer makes sense:
    > > > >>
    > > > >> % A STAMP system, i.e., either a Session-Sender or = a
    > > Session-Reflector,
    > > > >> % that has received a STAMP test packet with extens= ion TLVs MUST
    > > > >> % validate each TLV:
    > > > >> %
    > > > >> %=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If the U flag is set, the STAMP syst= em MUST skip the processing
    > > of
    > > > >> %=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the TLV.
    > > > >>
    > > > >> I think it should just apply to the Session-Sender = for this case --
    > > the
    > > > >> Session-Reflector doesn't need to check the rec= eived U flag, since the
    > > > >> Session-Sender will not be generating TLVs it does = not understand.
    > > > >> (Whether or not to keep the behavior for the M and = I flags as applying
    > > > >> to both Session-Sender and Session-Reflector vs. ju= st Session-Sender
    > > > >> does not immediately seem to be of much consequence= .
    > > > >>
    > > > > GIM>> Thank you for catching this. Indeed, that b= rakes STAMP with
    > > > > extensions. I think that though checking M and I flags = of a
    > > > > Session-Reflector should not do any harm, it doesn'= t seem to have any
    > > > > benefits. Hence we may remove the Session-Reflector fro= m the sentence
    > > and
    > > > > the updated introduction to the flag processing reads l= ike below:
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A STAMP Session-Sender that has received a= reflected STAMP test
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 packet with extension TLVs MUST validate e= ach TLV:
    > > > >
    > > > >>
    > > > >>
    > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------= -------------------
    > > > >> COMMENT:
    > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------= -------------------
    > > > >>
    > > > >> My most significant remaining comments are on the S= ecurity
    > > > >> Considerations (Section 6):
    > > > >>
    > > > >> The security of the HMAC mechanism is not complete,= since it is
    > > > >> susceptible to replay attack.=C2=A0 As such, when H= MAC is in use, it is
    > > > >> important to check that the received sequence numbe= rs are (at least
    > > > >> mostly) monotonic and to detect replays.=C2=A0 Whil= e replayed packets do
    > > not
    > > > >> always indicate an attack (depending on the network= technology) they
    > > are
    > > > >> still a noteworthy condition, and we should say som= ething about
    > > whether
    > > > >> we expect to produce a response to each received in= stance or to
    > > suppress
    > > > >> replies to replayed input.
    > > > >>
    > > > > GIM>> Is there a reliable mechanism to distinguis= h between an
    > > out-of-order
    > > > > duplicated packet and a replayed packet? I've check= ed RFC 5357 TWAMP
    > > for
    > > > > any suggestion and believe that there is no special con= sideration by a
    > > > > Session-Reflector for an out-of-order duplicated packet= . The TWAMP
    > > > > Session-Reflector does not monitor whether the sequence= numbers of the
    > > > > received test packets are in the monotonically increasi= ng sequence.
    > > STAMP
    > > > > is designed to be comparable with TWAMP and have some l= evel of
    > > > > interoperability. Hence, discarding what appears as a r= eplayed packet
    > > at a
    > > > > STAMP Session-Reflector might be less desirable behavio= r. If we follow
    > > > > TWAMP's behavior, what else can be done at the Sess= ion-Reflector to
    > > > > strengthen the security?
    > > > >
    > > > >>
    > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Monitoring and optional control of DSC= P do not appear to introduce
    > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 any additional security threat to host= s that communicate with STAMP
    > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as defined in [RFC8762].=C2=A0 As this= specification defined the
    > > mechanism
    > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to test DSCP mapping, this document in= herits all the security
    > > > >>
    > > > >> I'm afraid I still don't understand the rea= soning here.=C2=A0 In my
    > > > >> understanding, the risk stems from the semantics of= the DCSP field
    > > being
    > > > >> (for at least some codepoints) site-local, there no= t being a guarantee
    > > > >> that the session-sender and session-reflector are o= n the same network
    > > > >> (and thus, using the same DSCP semantics), and the = hard requirement
    > > for
    > > > >> the Session-Reflector to set the DCSP value indicat= ed by the
    > > > >> Session-Sender.=C2=A0 A mechanism for a remote enti= ty to induce generation
    > > of
    > > > >> local packets with unspecified semantics is a risk = that cannot be
    > > > >> qualified at protocol-design time, since the possib= le outcomes are
    > > > >> inherently unspecified.=C2=A0 This is analogous to = the situation with
    > > > >> undefined behavior in programming languages like C = -- the programmer
    > > is
    > > > >> flat-out required to avoid it, because literally an= ything could go
    > > wrong
    > > > >> if undefined behavior is triggered.
    > > > >>
    > > > > GIM>> I agree that the inter-QoS domain case requ= ires more
    > > consideration
    > > > > in the Security section. I propose the updated text bel= ow:
    > > > >
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 As this specification defined the mechanis= m to test DSCP mapping,
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this document inherits all the security co= nsiderations discussed in
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC2474].=C2=A0 Monitoring and optional c= ontrol of DSCP using the CoS
    > > TLV
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 may be used across the Internet so that th= e Session-Sender and the
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Session-Reflector are located in domains t= hat use different CoS
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 profiles.=C2=A0 Thus, it is essential that= an operator verifies the set
    > > of
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 CoS values that are used in the Session-Re= flector's domain.=C2=A0 Also,
    > > an
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 implementation of a Session-Reflector SHOU= LD support a local policy
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to confirm whether the value sent by the S= ession-Sender can be used
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as the value of the DSCP field.=C2=A0 Sect= ion 4.4 defines the use of that
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 local policy.
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >>
    > > > >> This is especially risky when there is the possibil= ity for the
    > > > >> Session-Reflector to act on packets that do not hav= e any form of
    > > > >> authentication (i.e., could be spoofed from off-pat= h).=C2=A0 But we do not
    > > > >> mention this risk at all, let alone give guidance o= n its mitigation.
    > > > >> (Discussion of the security considerations of unaut= henticated
    > > operation
    > > > >> would ideally be generalized to all actions/TLVs th= at have side
    > > effects,
    > > > >> not just the specific case of setting the DSCP code= point.)
    > > > >>
    > > > > GIM>> It seems very challenging for a STAMP syste= m to differentiate
    > > > > between a duplicate and/or out-of-order test packet and= a replayed
    > > packet
    > > > > because one of the metrics STAMP test measures is the n= etwork
    > > re-ordering
    > > > > metric per RFC 4737 <https://tools.ietf.or= g/html/rfc4737>. We may
    > > > > recommend that the rate-limiting of test packets be sel= ected
    > > > > conservatively.
    > > > >
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Section 4.2
    > > > >>
    > > > >> I'd suggest saying that all fields that are not= filled are transmitted
    > > > >> with all bits set to zero.
    > > > >>
    > > > > GIM>> Thank you for the helpful suggestion. Appen= ded Section 4.2:
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Note that all fields not filled by either = a Session-Sender or
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Session-Reflector are transmitted with all= bits set to zero.
    > > > >
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Section 4.2.1
    > > > >>
    > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Source MAC Address sub-TLV - i= s a 12-octet-long sub-TLV.=C2=A0 The
    > > Type
    > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0value is TBA9.=C2=A0 The = value of the Length field MUST equal to 8.
    > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The Value field is a 12-o= ctet-long MBZ field that MUST be zeroed
    > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0on transmission and ignor= ed on receipt.
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Value should be 8-octets-long, no?
    > > > >>
    > > > > GIM>> Thank you for catching it! You are absolute= ly correct. Fixed this
    > > > > and a similar in:
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Source EUI-64 Address sub-TLV - is= a 12-octet-long sub-TLV that
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0includes the EUI-64 source MA= C address.=C2=A0 The Type value is TBA11.
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The value of the Length field= MUST equal to 8.=C2=A0 The Value field
    > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0consists of an eight-octet-lo= ng EUI-64 field.
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >> Section 4.2.2
    > > > >>
    > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A Session-Sender MAY include the Sourc= e MAC Address sub-TLV is the
    > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Location TLV.=C2=A0 If the Session-Ref= lector receives the Location TLV
    > > > >>
    > > > >> nit: s/is/in/
    > > > >>
    > > > > GIM>> Thank you. Fixed (and three more places in = the same sub-section).
    > > > >
    > > > >>
    > > > >> Section 4.3
    > > > >>
    > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MUST NOT fill any information fields e= xcept for STAMP TLV Flags,
    > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Type, and Length.=C2=A0 All other fiel= ds MUST be filled with zeroes The
    > > > >>
    > > > >> nit: missing full stop.
    > > > >>
    > > > > GIM>> Done.
    > > > >
    > >
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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Zhenqiang, Many thanks for your comments. Yes, we will address both of your comments i= n the next update. Thanks, Rakesh From: ippm Date: Monday, November 2, 2020 at 1:38 AM To: Tommy Pauly , ippm Cc: IPPM Chairs , spring-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Dear All, I've read the docs and support the adoption for both of them with the follo= wing comments. For section 3.2, there are no Receive Counter, Sender Counter, nor Sender S= equence Number defined here. I believe the texts describe these parameters = should be put in section 4.1. I think it is better to expain how the counters and sequence numbers are us= ed to do loss measurement. Best Regards, Zhenqiang Li ________________________________ li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com From: Tommy Pauly Date: 2020-10-31 02:34 To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) CC: IPPM Chairs; spring-chairs Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-g= andhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hello IPPM, For the past few meetings, we=92ve had updates on the work in the SPRING WG= that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making exte= nsions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it= would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in = the IPPM WG. As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption for draft-gandhi= -ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. The documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 The related SPRING documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether or not y= ou believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Pl= ease provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mo= nday, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian --_000_DM6PR11MB31155DBF9CC9767FA6077103BFE80DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hi Zhenqiang,

    Many thanks for your comments. Yes, we will address = both of your comments in the next update.

     

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

     

     

    From: ippm <ippm-bounc= es@ietf.org>
    Date: Monday, November 2, 2020 at 1:38 AM
    To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, ippm &l= t;ippm@ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org= <spring-chairs@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Dear All,

     

    I've read the docs and support the adoption for both= of them with the following comments.

     

    For section 3.2, there are no Receive Counter, Sender Counter, nor Sender Seque= nce Number defined here. I believe the texts describe these parameters shou= ld be put in section 4.1.

    I think it is bette= r to expain how the counters and sequence numbers are used to do loss measu= rement. 

     

    Best Regards,

    Zhenqiang Li

    li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com

     

    From: Tommy Pauly

    Date: 2020-10-31 02:34

    Subject:<= /span> [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twam= p-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hello IPPM,

     

    For the past few meetings, we=92ve had updates on th= e work in the SPRING WG that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documen= ts ended up making extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING a= nd IPPM decided that it would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in the IPPM WG.

     

    As such, we are starting a Working Group call for ad= option for draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-sr= pm.

     

    Please provide your feedback on these documents, and= state whether or not you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by rep= lying to this email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF = 109 meeting week, on Monday, November 16.

     

    Best,

    Tommy & Ian

    --_000_DM6PR11MB31155DBF9CC9767FA6077103BFE80DM6PR11MB3115namp_-- From nobody Tue Nov 10 18:10:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29E313A12EA; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 18:10:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.894 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.894 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_NONELEMENT_30_40=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0ZGvUwEvMHO3; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 18:10:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxhk.zte.com.cn (mxhk.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71A2F3A12E8; 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Tue, 10 Nov 2020 22:49:04 -0500 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 19:48:53 -0800 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Greg Mirsky Cc: Martin Duke , IPPM Chairs , draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv@ietf.org, The IESG , Yali Wang , IETF IPPM WG Message-ID: <20201111034853.GO39170@kduck.mit.edu> References: <159901891096.15973.17525194862666459811@ietfa.amsl.com> <20201006190630.GK89563@kduck.mit.edu> <20201110052224.GF39170@kduck.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 03:49:23 -0000 Hi Greg, Your proposal for the security considerations sounds good to me. I look forward to the -10. -Ben On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 10:08:50AM -0800, Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi Ben, > thank you for the discussion and thoughtful suggestions. Please find my > answers and notes in-line below tagged GIM>>. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 9:22 PM Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > > > A timely reminder; as it happens this was on my list to look at today as > > well :) > > > > I'm happy to report that the editor's copy looks to resolve my Discuss > > points on the -09; thank you! Adding the Reverse Path field to indicate > > that the requested DSCP could not be used seems to be a fairly elegant > > approach (since we have bits to spare). > > > GIM>> Thank you for your kind words. > > > > > The other changes look good, too, and pick up almost all my other comments. > > That said, I couldn't (quickly) find anything to indicate that we had > > already > > talked about my top-level comment point regarding the protection of the > > HMAC TLV and the potential for replayed packets. While I recognize that > > there is a sequence number in the base STAMP packet format, STAMP itself > > does not seem to make many requirements on, e.g., processing packets in > > sequence number order or rejecting very old packets. Since STAMP is a > > measurement protocol, I don't think we would need to change much of the > > STAMP behavior just because we can get some moderate level of > > action/information from the Session-Reflector (or just because the > > packet is authenticated by the HMAC, not that such reasoning would make > > much sense). AFAICT, though, we should have some caveat in the security > > considerations that while the HMAC TLV protects the integrity of the > > extensions, it does not protect against replay. > > > GIM>> I propose to update the first paragraph in the Security > Considerations section: > OLD TEXT: > This document defines extensions to STAMP [RFC8762] and inherits all > the security considerations applicable to the base protocol. > Additionally, the HMAC TLV is defined in this document to protect the > integrity of optional STAMP extensions. The use of HMAC TLV is > discussed in detail in Section 4.8. > NEW TEXT: > This document defines extensions to STAMP [RFC8762] and inherits all > the security considerations applicable to the base protocol. > Additionally, the HMAC TLV is defined in this document. Though the > HMAC TLV protects the integrity of STAMP extensions; it does not > protect against a replay attack. The use of HMAC TLV is discussed in > detail in Section 4.8. > Does the update address your concern? > > > > > I'm happy to approve posting of a -10 during the submissions blackout > > if that will help get things moving again. > > > GIM>> Thank you for your kind offer. If the update listed above is > acceptable, I'll post -10 once the submission opens. > > > > > Thanks, and sorry again for the slowness of my responses on this one. > > > > -Ben > > > > On Mon, Nov 09, 2020 at 02:08:37PM -0800, Martin Duke wrote: > > > Ping? > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 6, 2020 at 12:06 PM Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > > > > > > > Hmm, my notes have this one as waiting on me to look at the latest > > updates, > > > > though there are a few other documents currently in front of it in my > > > > priority queue. > > > > > > > > -Ben > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 06, 2020 at 12:04:28PM -0700, Martin Duke wrote: > > > > > I believe the current status of this is that Ben is awaiting another > > > > > version of this draft to resolve his DISCUSS. If anyone has a > > different > > > > > understanding, please say so. > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 12:44 PM Greg Mirsky > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Ben, > > > > > > thank you for your comments and suggestions, all are much > > appreciated. > > > > > > Please find my notes in-lined below tagged by GIM>>. Attached are > > the > > > > diff > > > > > > and the new working version of the draft. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 8:55 PM Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker < > > > > > > noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > > > > > >> draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-09: Discuss > > > > > >> > > > > > >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to > > all > > > > > >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut > > > > this > > > > > >> introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Please refer to > > > > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > > > > >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found > > here: > > > > > >> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv/ > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >> DISCUSS: > > > > > >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Thanks for all the updates; we've made good progress. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I think we're still not converged on the DSCP handling, though. I > > > > have > > > > > >> a bit more exposition in the COMMENT section, but in short, my > > > > > >> understanding is that we're setting up a session-reflector to > > incur > > > > > >> unbounded levels of risk with hard protocol requirements. I > > think we > > > > > >> need to provide a way to bound that risk, for example by allowing > > the > > > > > >> Session-Reflector to selectively choose to treat the CoS TLV as > > > > > >> unimplemented (set the U flag in its reflected packet) or some > > other > > > > > >> mechanism for local policy to filter what DSCP codepoints are set > > in > > > > > >> reflected packets (ideally, indicating that the policy made a > > change). > > > > > >> > > > > > > GIM>> Thank you for pointing to the inter-QoS domain scenario. > > > > Clearly, it > > > > > > must be handled with more caution. Using the U flag is a very > > > > interesting > > > > > > approach. But wouldn't the Session-Sender skip the CoS TLV in the > > > > reflected > > > > > > packet? As a result, we may not retrieve information about the CoS > > > > mapping > > > > > > in the forward direction, i.e., towards the Session-Reflector. And > > it > > > > might > > > > > > be difficult for an operator to recognize whether the > > Session-Reflector > > > > > > doesn't support the particular CoS or STAMP extensions altogether. > > I > > > > would > > > > > > propose a new field being added in the CoS TLV: > > > > > > > > > > > > - RP (Reverse Path) - is a two-bit-long field. A > > Session-Sender > > > > > > MUST set the value of the RP field to 0 on transmission. > > > > > > > > > > > > And further in the section another update: > > > > > > A STAMP Session-Reflector that receives a test packet with the > > CoS > > > > > > TLV MUST include the CoS TLV in the reflected test packet. > > Also, > > > > the > > > > > > Session-Reflector MUST copy the value of the DSCP and ECN > > fields of > > > > > > the IP header of the received STAMP test packet into the DSCP2 > > field > > > > > > in the reflected test packet. Finally, the Session-Reflector > > MUST > > > > > > use the local policy to verify whether the CoS corresponding to > > the > > > > > > value of the DSCP1 field is permitted in the domain. If it is, > > the > > > > > > Session-Reflectorset MUST set the DSCP field's value in the IP > > > > header > > > > > > of the reflected test packet equal to the value of the DSCP1 > > field > > > > of > > > > > > the received test packet. Otherwise, the Session-Reflector > > MUST use > > > > > > the DSCP value of the received STAMP packet and set the value > > of the > > > > > > RP field to 1. Upon receiving the reflected packet, if the > > value of > > > > > > the RP field is 0, the Session-Sender will save the DSCP and ECN > > > > > > values for analysis of the CoS in the reverse direction. If the > > > > > > value of the RP field in the received reflected packet is 1, > > only > > > > CoS > > > > > > in the forward direction can be analyzed. > > > > > > > > > > > > Would these updates address your concern? > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Also, there's a bit of fallout from the flags reworking that's > > left to > > > > > >> cleanup in Section 4: we now have the Session-Sender set the U > > flag to > > > > > >> 1, so this text no longer makes sense: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> % A STAMP system, i.e., either a Session-Sender or a > > > > Session-Reflector, > > > > > >> % that has received a STAMP test packet with extension TLVs MUST > > > > > >> % validate each TLV: > > > > > >> % > > > > > >> % If the U flag is set, the STAMP system MUST skip the > > processing > > > > of > > > > > >> % the TLV. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I think it should just apply to the Session-Sender for this case > > -- > > > > the > > > > > >> Session-Reflector doesn't need to check the received U flag, > > since the > > > > > >> Session-Sender will not be generating TLVs it does not understand. > > > > > >> (Whether or not to keep the behavior for the M and I flags as > > applying > > > > > >> to both Session-Sender and Session-Reflector vs. just > > Session-Sender > > > > > >> does not immediately seem to be of much consequence. > > > > > >> > > > > > > GIM>> Thank you for catching this. Indeed, that brakes STAMP with > > > > > > extensions. I think that though checking M and I flags of a > > > > > > Session-Reflector should not do any harm, it doesn't seem to have > > any > > > > > > benefits. Hence we may remove the Session-Reflector from the > > sentence > > > > and > > > > > > the updated introduction to the flag processing reads like below: > > > > > > A STAMP Session-Sender that has received a reflected STAMP test > > > > > > packet with extension TLVs MUST validate each TLV: > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >> COMMENT: > > > > > >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > >> > > > > > >> My most significant remaining comments are on the Security > > > > > >> Considerations (Section 6): > > > > > >> > > > > > >> The security of the HMAC mechanism is not complete, since it is > > > > > >> susceptible to replay attack. As such, when HMAC is in use, it is > > > > > >> important to check that the received sequence numbers are (at > > least > > > > > >> mostly) monotonic and to detect replays. While replayed packets > > do > > > > not > > > > > >> always indicate an attack (depending on the network technology) > > they > > > > are > > > > > >> still a noteworthy condition, and we should say something about > > > > whether > > > > > >> we expect to produce a response to each received instance or to > > > > suppress > > > > > >> replies to replayed input. > > > > > >> > > > > > > GIM>> Is there a reliable mechanism to distinguish between an > > > > out-of-order > > > > > > duplicated packet and a replayed packet? I've checked RFC 5357 > > TWAMP > > > > for > > > > > > any suggestion and believe that there is no special consideration > > by a > > > > > > Session-Reflector for an out-of-order duplicated packet. The TWAMP > > > > > > Session-Reflector does not monitor whether the sequence numbers of > > the > > > > > > received test packets are in the monotonically increasing sequence. > > > > STAMP > > > > > > is designed to be comparable with TWAMP and have some level of > > > > > > interoperability. Hence, discarding what appears as a replayed > > packet > > > > at a > > > > > > STAMP Session-Reflector might be less desirable behavior. If we > > follow > > > > > > TWAMP's behavior, what else can be done at the Session-Reflector to > > > > > > strengthen the security? > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Monitoring and optional control of DSCP do not appear to > > introduce > > > > > >> any additional security threat to hosts that communicate with > > STAMP > > > > > >> as defined in [RFC8762]. As this specification defined the > > > > mechanism > > > > > >> to test DSCP mapping, this document inherits all the security > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I'm afraid I still don't understand the reasoning here. In my > > > > > >> understanding, the risk stems from the semantics of the DCSP field > > > > being > > > > > >> (for at least some codepoints) site-local, there not being a > > guarantee > > > > > >> that the session-sender and session-reflector are on the same > > network > > > > > >> (and thus, using the same DSCP semantics), and the hard > > requirement > > > > for > > > > > >> the Session-Reflector to set the DCSP value indicated by the > > > > > >> Session-Sender. A mechanism for a remote entity to induce > > generation > > > > of > > > > > >> local packets with unspecified semantics is a risk that cannot be > > > > > >> qualified at protocol-design time, since the possible outcomes are > > > > > >> inherently unspecified. This is analogous to the situation with > > > > > >> undefined behavior in programming languages like C -- the > > programmer > > > > is > > > > > >> flat-out required to avoid it, because literally anything could go > > > > wrong > > > > > >> if undefined behavior is triggered. > > > > > >> > > > > > > GIM>> I agree that the inter-QoS domain case requires more > > > > consideration > > > > > > in the Security section. I propose the updated text below: > > > > > > > > > > > > As this specification defined the mechanism to test DSCP > > mapping, > > > > > > this document inherits all the security considerations > > discussed in > > > > > > [RFC2474]. Monitoring and optional control of DSCP using the > > CoS > > > > TLV > > > > > > may be used across the Internet so that the Session-Sender and > > the > > > > > > Session-Reflector are located in domains that use different CoS > > > > > > profiles. Thus, it is essential that an operator verifies the > > set > > > > of > > > > > > CoS values that are used in the Session-Reflector's domain. > > Also, > > > > an > > > > > > implementation of a Session-Reflector SHOULD support a local > > policy > > > > > > to confirm whether the value sent by the Session-Sender can be > > used > > > > > > as the value of the DSCP field. Section 4.4 defines the use of > > that > > > > > > local policy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> This is especially risky when there is the possibility for the > > > > > >> Session-Reflector to act on packets that do not have any form of > > > > > >> authentication (i.e., could be spoofed from off-path). But we do > > not > > > > > >> mention this risk at all, let alone give guidance on its > > mitigation. > > > > > >> (Discussion of the security considerations of unauthenticated > > > > operation > > > > > >> would ideally be generalized to all actions/TLVs that have side > > > > effects, > > > > > >> not just the specific case of setting the DSCP codepoint.) > > > > > >> > > > > > > GIM>> It seems very challenging for a STAMP system to differentiate > > > > > > between a duplicate and/or out-of-order test packet and a replayed > > > > packet > > > > > > because one of the metrics STAMP test measures is the network > > > > re-ordering > > > > > > metric per RFC 4737 . We may > > > > > > recommend that the rate-limiting of test packets be selected > > > > > > conservatively. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Section 4.2 > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I'd suggest saying that all fields that are not filled are > > transmitted > > > > > >> with all bits set to zero. > > > > > >> > > > > > > GIM>> Thank you for the helpful suggestion. Appended Section 4.2: > > > > > > Note that all fields not filled by either a Session-Sender or > > > > > > Session-Reflector are transmitted with all bits set to zero. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Section 4.2.1 > > > > > >> > > > > > >> o Source MAC Address sub-TLV - is a 12-octet-long sub-TLV. > > The > > > > Type > > > > > >> value is TBA9. The value of the Length field MUST equal to > > 8. > > > > > >> The Value field is a 12-octet-long MBZ field that MUST be > > zeroed > > > > > >> on transmission and ignored on receipt. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Value should be 8-octets-long, no? > > > > > >> > > > > > > GIM>> Thank you for catching it! You are absolutely correct. Fixed > > this > > > > > > and a similar in: > > > > > > o Source EUI-64 Address sub-TLV - is a 12-octet-long sub-TLV > > that > > > > > > includes the EUI-64 source MAC address. The Type value is > > TBA11. > > > > > > The value of the Length field MUST equal to 8. The Value > > field > > > > > > consists of an eight-octet-long EUI-64 field. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Section 4.2.2 > > > > > >> > > > > > >> A Session-Sender MAY include the Source MAC Address sub-TLV is > > the > > > > > >> Location TLV. If the Session-Reflector receives the Location > > TLV > > > > > >> > > > > > >> nit: s/is/in/ > > > > > >> > > > > > > GIM>> Thank you. Fixed (and three more places in the same > > sub-section). > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Section 4.3 > > > > > >> > > > > > >> MUST NOT fill any information fields except for STAMP TLV > > Flags, > > > > > >> Type, and Length. All other fields MUST be filled with zeroes > > The > > > > > >> > > > > > >> nit: missing full stop. > > > > > >> > > > > > > GIM>> Done. > > > > > > > > > > > > From nobody Tue Nov 10 20:07:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E83CF3A097F; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 20:07:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mcIFrK7fFPyl; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 20:07:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x231.google.com (mail-lj1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A76153A02BC; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 20:07:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x231.google.com with SMTP id 11so523740ljf.2; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 20:07:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=F7L0Xn+ckd5R2dGMDTlRi/b99SmwTb1DR3jHl9VUlqo=; b=CbR+9EgtNZ7078rwUmaXjt/HDThZ/J/SDStG5tMPt+jLPgI6ICIJZw+Vi6sW6y5Gdi 7xjpaWqLbTsUrUSSqopoOy0TexKwzvz2enzS8XRmLdy8iPrtsFQXjw/aDODK9xhbWv8l bgVEvojDVUfau/55pxpG+l2G85Tyopb3gMsRWfPwtZnHH2fABVMd5M/gmkKGFuDHp+sV 6SkP4B+HoUZ1cnfHIy/IP7WB7m0eIwDSJSgR48dfNV+ebfFqC9MKrPUiO0+CYhOlbB2L K9lmjqfkBUIYiNEg6NuqWm9d2IrBUZ0BrboU9TKOtEIYcFZWD8x6gSg7Ra4pqgceDNKs X4xQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=F7L0Xn+ckd5R2dGMDTlRi/b99SmwTb1DR3jHl9VUlqo=; b=ibzPMLFQw7UP9PgRgpqW+czqj58TMDbVSP4/eORGew4OVfStTXzTUfHCc1hm9CMC7w advzQb4BwientvyIpg0B77HRsGtP/N5vlpxm9oGrNKoYuJopj1bvRJGwTD+zwBmLQFTZ iPnq+1kdmUhwl4anzJFgUieMnEuPYTujWj2G5JgXUxxmdTR0bNn9K1/1NJ870MLMwK6q PNQojlXb5M/k8ToFkX9HX2+lEatZhjkaqeisg9L/shkFxueD4dHRo2PgU0AfTaUknks0 NcbnBaPNIO2DHvCnHtvKwLkBSggRIkoafMOZ9F8/D1pJkWgut4l23KaPyDx6S7va6tBi JUrg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5315leSbKwhe/v8ySzlQ4JtqPAJaGnxPpJI4XbvHB5Ajn+zQGI0Z hkTGcpppw+Zuh8iqPPJmtyAQFeif6gRHPhCVKCk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyds2edK8clfWQQykmRyp67rksEE+G3JUoCFHaN8HF041YpalBZSIwtBS3GQFgjlqimHydOAttxEGhtZYpaycU= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:5450:: with SMTP id y16mr10173864ljd.288.1605067628519; Tue, 10 Nov 2020 20:07:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <159901891096.15973.17525194862666459811@ietfa.amsl.com> <20201006190630.GK89563@kduck.mit.edu> <20201110052224.GF39170@kduck.mit.edu> <20201111034853.GO39170@kduck.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20201111034853.GO39170@kduck.mit.edu> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 20:06:57 -0800 Message-ID: To: Benjamin Kaduk Cc: Martin Duke , IPPM Chairs , draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv@ietf.org, The IESG , Yali Wang , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d6a2f605b3cced48" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-09: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 04:07:17 -0000 --000000000000d6a2f605b3cced48 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Ben, thank you for the extremely educational to me discussion, much appreciated. Regards, Greg On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 7:49 PM Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > Hi Greg, > > Your proposal for the security considerations sounds good to me. > I look forward to the -10. > > -Ben > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 10:08:50AM -0800, Greg Mirsky wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > thank you for the discussion and thoughtful suggestions. Please find my > > answers and notes in-line below tagged GIM>>. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 9:22 PM Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > > > > > A timely reminder; as it happens this was on my list to look at today > as > > > well :) > > > > > > I'm happy to report that the editor's copy looks to resolve my Discuss > > > points on the -09; thank you! Adding the Reverse Path field to > indicate > > > that the requested DSCP could not be used seems to be a fairly elegant > > > approach (since we have bits to spare). > > > > > GIM>> Thank you for your kind words. > > > > > > > > The other changes look good, too, and pick up almost all my other > comments. > > > That said, I couldn't (quickly) find anything to indicate that we had > > > already > > > talked about my top-level comment point regarding the protection of the > > > HMAC TLV and the potential for replayed packets. While I recognize > that > > > there is a sequence number in the base STAMP packet format, STAMP > itself > > > does not seem to make many requirements on, e.g., processing packets in > > > sequence number order or rejecting very old packets. Since STAMP is a > > > measurement protocol, I don't think we would need to change much of the > > > STAMP behavior just because we can get some moderate level of > > > action/information from the Session-Reflector (or just because the > > > packet is authenticated by the HMAC, not that such reasoning would make > > > much sense). AFAICT, though, we should have some caveat in the > security > > > considerations that while the HMAC TLV protects the integrity of the > > > extensions, it does not protect against replay. > > > > > GIM>> I propose to update the first paragraph in the Security > > Considerations section: > > OLD TEXT: > > This document defines extensions to STAMP [RFC8762] and inherits all > > the security considerations applicable to the base protocol. > > Additionally, the HMAC TLV is defined in this document to protect the > > integrity of optional STAMP extensions. The use of HMAC TLV is > > discussed in detail in Section 4.8. > > NEW TEXT: > > This document defines extensions to STAMP [RFC8762] and inherits all > > the security considerations applicable to the base protocol. > > Additionally, the HMAC TLV is defined in this document. Though the > > HMAC TLV protects the integrity of STAMP extensions; it does not > > protect against a replay attack. The use of HMAC TLV is discussed in > > detail in Section 4.8. > > Does the update address your concern? > > > > > > > > I'm happy to approve posting of a -10 during the submissions blackout > > > if that will help get things moving again. > > > > > GIM>> Thank you for your kind offer. If the update listed above is > > acceptable, I'll post -10 once the submission opens. > > > > > > > > Thanks, and sorry again for the slowness of my responses on this one. > > > > > > -Ben > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 09, 2020 at 02:08:37PM -0800, Martin Duke wrote: > > > > Ping? > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 6, 2020 at 12:06 PM Benjamin Kaduk > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hmm, my notes have this one as waiting on me to look at the latest > > > updates, > > > > > though there are a few other documents currently in front of it in > my > > > > > priority queue. > > > > > > > > > > -Ben > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 06, 2020 at 12:04:28PM -0700, Martin Duke wrote: > > > > > > I believe the current status of this is that Ben is awaiting > another > > > > > > version of this draft to resolve his DISCUSS. If anyone has a > > > different > > > > > > understanding, please say so. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 12:44 PM Greg Mirsky < > gregimirsky@gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Ben, > > > > > > > thank you for your comments and suggestions, all are much > > > appreciated. > > > > > > > Please find my notes in-lined below tagged by GIM>>. Attached > are > > > the > > > > > diff > > > > > > > and the new working version of the draft. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 8:55 PM Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker < > > > > > > > noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > > > > > > >> draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-09: Discuss > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and > reply to > > > all > > > > > > >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free > to cut > > > > > this > > > > > > >> introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Please refer to > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > > > > > >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found > > > here: > > > > > > >> > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv/ > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > >> DISCUSS: > > > > > > >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Thanks for all the updates; we've made good progress. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I think we're still not converged on the DSCP handling, > though. I > > > > > have > > > > > > >> a bit more exposition in the COMMENT section, but in short, my > > > > > > >> understanding is that we're setting up a session-reflector to > > > incur > > > > > > >> unbounded levels of risk with hard protocol requirements. I > > > think we > > > > > > >> need to provide a way to bound that risk, for example by > allowing > > > the > > > > > > >> Session-Reflector to selectively choose to treat the CoS TLV > as > > > > > > >> unimplemented (set the U flag in its reflected packet) or some > > > other > > > > > > >> mechanism for local policy to filter what DSCP codepoints are > set > > > in > > > > > > >> reflected packets (ideally, indicating that the policy made a > > > change). > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > GIM>> Thank you for pointing to the inter-QoS domain scenario. > > > > > Clearly, it > > > > > > > must be handled with more caution. Using the U flag is a very > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > approach. But wouldn't the Session-Sender skip the CoS TLV in > the > > > > > reflected > > > > > > > packet? As a result, we may not retrieve information about the > CoS > > > > > mapping > > > > > > > in the forward direction, i.e., towards the Session-Reflector. > And > > > it > > > > > might > > > > > > > be difficult for an operator to recognize whether the > > > Session-Reflector > > > > > > > doesn't support the particular CoS or STAMP extensions > altogether. > > > I > > > > > would > > > > > > > propose a new field being added in the CoS TLV: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - RP (Reverse Path) - is a two-bit-long field. A > > > Session-Sender > > > > > > > MUST set the value of the RP field to 0 on transmission. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And further in the section another update: > > > > > > > A STAMP Session-Reflector that receives a test packet with > the > > > CoS > > > > > > > TLV MUST include the CoS TLV in the reflected test packet. > > > Also, > > > > > the > > > > > > > Session-Reflector MUST copy the value of the DSCP and ECN > > > fields of > > > > > > > the IP header of the received STAMP test packet into the > DSCP2 > > > field > > > > > > > in the reflected test packet. Finally, the > Session-Reflector > > > MUST > > > > > > > use the local policy to verify whether the CoS > corresponding to > > > the > > > > > > > value of the DSCP1 field is permitted in the domain. If it > is, > > > the > > > > > > > Session-Reflectorset MUST set the DSCP field's value in the > IP > > > > > header > > > > > > > of the reflected test packet equal to the value of the DSCP1 > > > field > > > > > of > > > > > > > the received test packet. Otherwise, the Session-Reflector > > > MUST use > > > > > > > the DSCP value of the received STAMP packet and set the > value > > > of the > > > > > > > RP field to 1. Upon receiving the reflected packet, if the > > > value of > > > > > > > the RP field is 0, the Session-Sender will save the DSCP > and ECN > > > > > > > values for analysis of the CoS in the reverse direction. > If the > > > > > > > value of the RP field in the received reflected packet is 1, > > > only > > > > > CoS > > > > > > > in the forward direction can be analyzed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would these updates address your concern? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Also, there's a bit of fallout from the flags reworking that's > > > left to > > > > > > >> cleanup in Section 4: we now have the Session-Sender set the U > > > flag to > > > > > > >> 1, so this text no longer makes sense: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> % A STAMP system, i.e., either a Session-Sender or a > > > > > Session-Reflector, > > > > > > >> % that has received a STAMP test packet with extension TLVs > MUST > > > > > > >> % validate each TLV: > > > > > > >> % > > > > > > >> % If the U flag is set, the STAMP system MUST skip the > > > processing > > > > > of > > > > > > >> % the TLV. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I think it should just apply to the Session-Sender for this > case > > > -- > > > > > the > > > > > > >> Session-Reflector doesn't need to check the received U flag, > > > since the > > > > > > >> Session-Sender will not be generating TLVs it does not > understand. > > > > > > >> (Whether or not to keep the behavior for the M and I flags as > > > applying > > > > > > >> to both Session-Sender and Session-Reflector vs. just > > > Session-Sender > > > > > > >> does not immediately seem to be of much consequence. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > GIM>> Thank you for catching this. Indeed, that brakes STAMP > with > > > > > > > extensions. I think that though checking M and I flags of a > > > > > > > Session-Reflector should not do any harm, it doesn't seem to > have > > > any > > > > > > > benefits. Hence we may remove the Session-Reflector from the > > > sentence > > > > > and > > > > > > > the updated introduction to the flag processing reads like > below: > > > > > > > A STAMP Session-Sender that has received a reflected STAMP > test > > > > > > > packet with extension TLVs MUST validate each TLV: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > >> COMMENT: > > > > > > >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> My most significant remaining comments are on the Security > > > > > > >> Considerations (Section 6): > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> The security of the HMAC mechanism is not complete, since it > is > > > > > > >> susceptible to replay attack. As such, when HMAC is in use, > it is > > > > > > >> important to check that the received sequence numbers are (at > > > least > > > > > > >> mostly) monotonic and to detect replays. While replayed > packets > > > do > > > > > not > > > > > > >> always indicate an attack (depending on the network > technology) > > > they > > > > > are > > > > > > >> still a noteworthy condition, and we should say something > about > > > > > whether > > > > > > >> we expect to produce a response to each received instance or > to > > > > > suppress > > > > > > >> replies to replayed input. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > GIM>> Is there a reliable mechanism to distinguish between an > > > > > out-of-order > > > > > > > duplicated packet and a replayed packet? I've checked RFC 5357 > > > TWAMP > > > > > for > > > > > > > any suggestion and believe that there is no special > consideration > > > by a > > > > > > > Session-Reflector for an out-of-order duplicated packet. The > TWAMP > > > > > > > Session-Reflector does not monitor whether the sequence > numbers of > > > the > > > > > > > received test packets are in the monotonically increasing > sequence. > > > > > STAMP > > > > > > > is designed to be comparable with TWAMP and have some level of > > > > > > > interoperability. Hence, discarding what appears as a replayed > > > packet > > > > > at a > > > > > > > STAMP Session-Reflector might be less desirable behavior. If we > > > follow > > > > > > > TWAMP's behavior, what else can be done at the > Session-Reflector to > > > > > > > strengthen the security? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Monitoring and optional control of DSCP do not appear to > > > introduce > > > > > > >> any additional security threat to hosts that communicate > with > > > STAMP > > > > > > >> as defined in [RFC8762]. As this specification defined the > > > > > mechanism > > > > > > >> to test DSCP mapping, this document inherits all the > security > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I'm afraid I still don't understand the reasoning here. In my > > > > > > >> understanding, the risk stems from the semantics of the DCSP > field > > > > > being > > > > > > >> (for at least some codepoints) site-local, there not being a > > > guarantee > > > > > > >> that the session-sender and session-reflector are on the same > > > network > > > > > > >> (and thus, using the same DSCP semantics), and the hard > > > requirement > > > > > for > > > > > > >> the Session-Reflector to set the DCSP value indicated by the > > > > > > >> Session-Sender. A mechanism for a remote entity to induce > > > generation > > > > > of > > > > > > >> local packets with unspecified semantics is a risk that > cannot be > > > > > > >> qualified at protocol-design time, since the possible > outcomes are > > > > > > >> inherently unspecified. This is analogous to the situation > with > > > > > > >> undefined behavior in programming languages like C -- the > > > programmer > > > > > is > > > > > > >> flat-out required to avoid it, because literally anything > could go > > > > > wrong > > > > > > >> if undefined behavior is triggered. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > GIM>> I agree that the inter-QoS domain case requires more > > > > > consideration > > > > > > > in the Security section. I propose the updated text below: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As this specification defined the mechanism to test DSCP > > > mapping, > > > > > > > this document inherits all the security considerations > > > discussed in > > > > > > > [RFC2474]. Monitoring and optional control of DSCP using > the > > > CoS > > > > > TLV > > > > > > > may be used across the Internet so that the Session-Sender > and > > > the > > > > > > > Session-Reflector are located in domains that use different > CoS > > > > > > > profiles. Thus, it is essential that an operator verifies > the > > > set > > > > > of > > > > > > > CoS values that are used in the Session-Reflector's domain. > > > Also, > > > > > an > > > > > > > implementation of a Session-Reflector SHOULD support a local > > > policy > > > > > > > to confirm whether the value sent by the Session-Sender can > be > > > used > > > > > > > as the value of the DSCP field. Section 4.4 defines the > use of > > > that > > > > > > > local policy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> This is especially risky when there is the possibility for the > > > > > > >> Session-Reflector to act on packets that do not have any form > of > > > > > > >> authentication (i.e., could be spoofed from off-path). But > we do > > > not > > > > > > >> mention this risk at all, let alone give guidance on its > > > mitigation. > > > > > > >> (Discussion of the security considerations of unauthenticated > > > > > operation > > > > > > >> would ideally be generalized to all actions/TLVs that have > side > > > > > effects, > > > > > > >> not just the specific case of setting the DSCP codepoint.) > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > GIM>> It seems very challenging for a STAMP system to > differentiate > > > > > > > between a duplicate and/or out-of-order test packet and a > replayed > > > > > packet > > > > > > > because one of the metrics STAMP test measures is the network > > > > > re-ordering > > > > > > > metric per RFC 4737 . We > may > > > > > > > recommend that the rate-limiting of test packets be selected > > > > > > > conservatively. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Section 4.2 > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I'd suggest saying that all fields that are not filled are > > > transmitted > > > > > > >> with all bits set to zero. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > GIM>> Thank you for the helpful suggestion. Appended Section > 4.2: > > > > > > > Note that all fields not filled by either a Session-Sender > or > > > > > > > Session-Reflector are transmitted with all bits set to zero. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Section 4.2.1 > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> o Source MAC Address sub-TLV - is a 12-octet-long sub-TLV. > > > The > > > > > Type > > > > > > >> value is TBA9. The value of the Length field MUST > equal to > > > 8. > > > > > > >> The Value field is a 12-octet-long MBZ field that MUST > be > > > zeroed > > > > > > >> on transmission and ignored on receipt. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Value should be 8-octets-long, no? > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > GIM>> Thank you for catching it! You are absolutely correct. > Fixed > > > this > > > > > > > and a similar in: > > > > > > > o Source EUI-64 Address sub-TLV - is a 12-octet-long > sub-TLV > > > that > > > > > > > includes the EUI-64 source MAC address. The Type value > is > > > TBA11. > > > > > > > The value of the Length field MUST equal to 8. The Value > > > field > > > > > > > consists of an eight-octet-long EUI-64 field. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Section 4.2.2 > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> A Session-Sender MAY include the Source MAC Address > sub-TLV is > > > the > > > > > > >> Location TLV. If the Session-Reflector receives the > Location > > > TLV > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> nit: s/is/in/ > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > GIM>> Thank you. Fixed (and three more places in the same > > > sub-section). > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Section 4.3 > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> MUST NOT fill any information fields except for STAMP TLV > > > Flags, > > > > > > >> Type, and Length. All other fields MUST be filled with > zeroes > > > The > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> nit: missing full stop. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > GIM>> Done. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --000000000000d6a2f605b3cced48 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Ben,
    thank you for the extremely educational to me = discussion, much appreciated.

    Regards,
    G= reg

    On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 7:49 PM Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
    Hi Greg,

    Your proposal for the security considerations sounds good to me.
    I look forward to the -10.

    -Ben

    On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 10:08:50AM -0800, Greg Mirsky wrote:
    > Hi Ben,
    > thank you for the discussion and thoughtful suggestions. Please find m= y
    > answers and notes in-line below tagged GIM>>.
    >
    > Regards,
    > Greg
    >
    > On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 9:22 PM Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
    >
    > > A timely reminder; as it happens this was on my list to look at t= oday as
    > > well :)
    > >
    > > I'm happy to report that the editor's copy looks to resol= ve my Discuss
    > > points on the -09; thank you!=C2=A0 Adding the Reverse Path field= to indicate
    > > that the requested DSCP could not be used seems to be a fairly el= egant
    > > approach (since we have bits to spare).
    > >
    > GIM>> Thank you for your kind words.
    >
    > >
    > > The other changes look good, too, and pick up almost all my other= comments.
    > > That said, I couldn't (quickly) find anything to indicate tha= t we had
    > > already
    > > talked about my top-level comment point regarding the protection = of the
    > > HMAC TLV and the potential for replayed packets.=C2=A0 While I re= cognize that
    > > there is a sequence number in the base STAMP packet format, STAMP= itself
    > > does not seem to make many requirements on, e.g., processing pack= ets in
    > > sequence number order or rejecting very old packets.=C2=A0 Since = STAMP is a
    > > measurement protocol, I don't think we would need to change m= uch of the
    > > STAMP behavior just because we can get some moderate level of
    > > action/information from the Session-Reflector (or just because th= e
    > > packet is authenticated by the HMAC, not that such reasoning woul= d make
    > > much sense).=C2=A0 AFAICT, though, we should have some caveat in = the security
    > > considerations that while the HMAC TLV protects the integrity of = the
    > > extensions, it does not protect against replay.
    > >
    > GIM>> I propose to update the first paragraph in the Security > Considerations section:
    > OLD TEXT:
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This document defines extensions to STAMP [RFC8762] and i= nherits all
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the security considerations applicable to the base protoc= ol.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Additionally, the HMAC TLV is defined in this document to= protect the
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 integrity of optional STAMP extensions.=C2=A0 The use of = HMAC TLV is
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 discussed in detail in Section 4.8.
    > NEW TEXT:
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This document defines extensions to STAMP [RFC8762] and i= nherits all
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the security considerations applicable to the base protoc= ol.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Additionally, the HMAC TLV is defined in this document.= =C2=A0 Though the
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 HMAC TLV protects the integrity of STAMP extensions; it d= oes not
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 protect against a replay attack.=C2=A0 The use of HMAC TL= V is discussed in
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 detail in Section 4.8.
    > Does the update address your concern?
    >
    > >
    > > I'm happy to approve posting of a -10 during the submissions = blackout
    > > if that will help get things moving again.
    > >
    > GIM>> Thank you for your kind offer. If the update listed above = is
    > acceptable, I'll post -10 once the submission opens.
    >
    > >
    > > Thanks, and sorry again for the slowness of my responses on this = one.
    > >
    > > -Ben
    > >
    > > On Mon, Nov 09, 2020 at 02:08:37PM -0800, Martin Duke wrote:
    > > > Ping?
    > > >
    > > > On Tue, Oct 6, 2020 at 12:06 PM Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote: > > >
    > > > > Hmm, my notes have this one as waiting on me to look at= the latest
    > > updates,
    > > > > though there are a few other documents currently in fro= nt of it in my
    > > > > priority queue.
    > > > >
    > > > > -Ben
    > > > >
    > > > > On Tue, Oct 06, 2020 at 12:04:28PM -0700, Martin Duke w= rote:
    > > > > > I believe the current status of this is that Ben i= s awaiting another
    > > > > > version of this draft to resolve his DISCUSS. If a= nyone has a
    > > different
    > > > > > understanding, please say so.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 12:44 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.= com>
    > > > > wrote:
    > > > > >
    > > > > > > Hi Ben,
    > > > > > > thank you for your comments and suggestions, = all are much
    > > appreciated.
    > > > > > > Please find my notes in-lined below tagged by= GIM>>. Attached are
    > > the
    > > > > diff
    > > > > > > and the new working version of the draft.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Regards,
    > > > > > > Greg
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 1, 2020 at 8:55 PM Benjamin Kaduk= via Datatracker <
    > > > > > > noreply@ietf.org> wrote:
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >> Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following = ballot position for
    > > > > > >> draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-09: Disc= uss
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> When responding, please keep the subject = line intact and reply to
    > > all
    > > > > > >> email addresses included in the To and CC= lines. (Feel free to cut
    > > > > this
    > > > > > >> introductory paragraph, however.)
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> Please refer to
    > > > > https://www.ietf.org/ie= sg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
    > > > > > >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS a= nd COMMENT positions.
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> The document, along with other ballot pos= itions, can be found
    > > here:
    > > > > > >>
    > > https://datatracker.ietf= .org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv/
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >>
    > > -----------------------------------------------------------------= -----
    > > > > > >> DISCUSS:
    > > > > > >>
    > > -----------------------------------------------------------------= -----
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> Thanks for all the updates; we've mad= e good progress.
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> I think we're still not converged on = the DSCP handling, though.=C2=A0 I
    > > > > have
    > > > > > >> a bit more exposition in the COMMENT sect= ion, but in short, my
    > > > > > >> understanding is that we're setting u= p a session-reflector to
    > > incur
    > > > > > >> unbounded levels of risk with hard protoc= ol requirements.=C2=A0 I
    > > think we
    > > > > > >> need to provide a way to bound that risk,= for example by allowing
    > > the
    > > > > > >> Session-Reflector to selectively choose t= o treat the CoS TLV as
    > > > > > >> unimplemented (set the U flag in its refl= ected packet) or some
    > > other
    > > > > > >> mechanism for local policy to filter what= DSCP codepoints are set
    > > in
    > > > > > >> reflected packets (ideally, indicating th= at the policy made a
    > > change).
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > > GIM>> Thank you for pointing to the int= er-QoS domain scenario.
    > > > > Clearly, it
    > > > > > > must be handled with more caution. Using the = U flag is a very
    > > > > interesting
    > > > > > > approach. But wouldn't the Session-Sender= skip the CoS TLV in the
    > > > > reflected
    > > > > > > packet? As a result, we may not retrieve info= rmation about the CoS
    > > > > mapping
    > > > > > > in the forward direction, i.e., towards the S= ession-Reflector. And
    > > it
    > > > > might
    > > > > > > be difficult for an operator to recognize whe= ther the
    > > Session-Reflector
    > > > > > > doesn't support the particular CoS or STA= MP extensions altogether.
    > > I
    > > > > would
    > > > > > > propose a new field being added in the CoS TL= V:
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -=C2=A0 =C2=A0 RP (Reverse Path)= - is a two-bit-long field.=C2=A0 A
    > > Session-Sender
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0MUST set the value = of the RP field to 0 on transmission.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > And further in the section another update: > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A STAMP Session-Reflector that r= eceives a test packet with the
    > > CoS
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 TLV MUST include the CoS TLV in = the reflected test packet.
    > > Also,
    > > > > the
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Session-Reflector MUST copy the = value of the DSCP and ECN
    > > fields of
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the IP header of the received ST= AMP test packet into the DSCP2
    > > field
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the reflected test packet.=C2= =A0 Finally, the Session-Reflector
    > > MUST
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 use the local policy to verify w= hether the CoS corresponding to
    > > the
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 value of the DSCP1 field is perm= itted in the domain.=C2=A0 If it is,
    > > the
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Session-Reflectorset MUST set th= e DSCP field's value in the IP
    > > > > header
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the reflected test packet equ= al to the value of the DSCP1
    > > field
    > > > > of
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the received test packet.=C2=A0 = Otherwise, the Session-Reflector
    > > MUST use
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the DSCP value of the received S= TAMP packet and set the value
    > > of the
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 RP field to 1.=C2=A0 Upon receiv= ing the reflected packet, if the
    > > value of
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the RP field is 0, the Session-S= ender will save the DSCP and ECN
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 values for analysis of the CoS i= n the reverse direction.=C2=A0 If the
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 value of the RP field in the rec= eived reflected packet is 1,
    > > only
    > > > > CoS
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the forward direction can be = analyzed.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Would these updates address your concern?
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> Also, there's a bit of fallout from t= he flags reworking that's
    > > left to
    > > > > > >> cleanup in Section 4: we now have the Ses= sion-Sender set the U
    > > flag to
    > > > > > >> 1, so this text no longer makes sense: > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> % A STAMP system, i.e., either a Session-= Sender or a
    > > > > Session-Reflector,
    > > > > > >> % that has received a STAMP test packet w= ith extension TLVs MUST
    > > > > > >> % validate each TLV:
    > > > > > >> %
    > > > > > >> %=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If the U flag is set, the = STAMP system MUST skip the
    > > processing
    > > > > of
    > > > > > >> %=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the TLV.
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> I think it should just apply to the Sessi= on-Sender for this case
    > > --
    > > > > the
    > > > > > >> Session-Reflector doesn't need to che= ck the received U flag,
    > > since the
    > > > > > >> Session-Sender will not be generating TLV= s it does not understand.
    > > > > > >> (Whether or not to keep the behavior for = the M and I flags as
    > > applying
    > > > > > >> to both Session-Sender and Session-Reflec= tor vs. just
    > > Session-Sender
    > > > > > >> does not immediately seem to be of much c= onsequence.
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > > GIM>> Thank you for catching this. Inde= ed, that brakes STAMP with
    > > > > > > extensions. I think that though checking M an= d I flags of a
    > > > > > > Session-Reflector should not do any harm, it = doesn't seem to have
    > > any
    > > > > > > benefits. Hence we may remove the Session-Ref= lector from the
    > > sentence
    > > > > and
    > > > > > > the updated introduction to the flag processi= ng reads like below:
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A STAMP Session-Sender that has = received a reflected STAMP test
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 packet with extension TLVs MUST = validate each TLV:
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >>
    > > -----------------------------------------------------------------= -----
    > > > > > >> COMMENT:
    > > > > > >>
    > > -----------------------------------------------------------------= -----
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> My most significant remaining comments ar= e on the Security
    > > > > > >> Considerations (Section 6):
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> The security of the HMAC mechanism is not= complete, since it is
    > > > > > >> susceptible to replay attack.=C2=A0 As su= ch, when HMAC is in use, it is
    > > > > > >> important to check that the received sequ= ence numbers are (at
    > > least
    > > > > > >> mostly) monotonic and to detect replays.= =C2=A0 While replayed packets
    > > do
    > > > > not
    > > > > > >> always indicate an attack (depending on t= he network technology)
    > > they
    > > > > are
    > > > > > >> still a noteworthy condition, and we shou= ld say something about
    > > > > whether
    > > > > > >> we expect to produce a response to each r= eceived instance or to
    > > > > suppress
    > > > > > >> replies to replayed input.
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > > GIM>> Is there a reliable mechanism to = distinguish between an
    > > > > out-of-order
    > > > > > > duplicated packet and a replayed packet? I= 9;ve checked RFC 5357
    > > TWAMP
    > > > > for
    > > > > > > any suggestion and believe that there is no s= pecial consideration
    > > by a
    > > > > > > Session-Reflector for an out-of-order duplica= ted packet. The TWAMP
    > > > > > > Session-Reflector does not monitor whether th= e sequence numbers of
    > > the
    > > > > > > received test packets are in the monotonicall= y increasing sequence.
    > > > > STAMP
    > > > > > > is designed to be comparable with TWAMP and h= ave some level of
    > > > > > > interoperability. Hence, discarding what appe= ars as a replayed
    > > packet
    > > > > at a
    > > > > > > STAMP Session-Reflector might be less desirab= le behavior. If we
    > > follow
    > > > > > > TWAMP's behavior, what else can be done a= t the Session-Reflector to
    > > > > > > strengthen the security?
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Monitoring and optional cont= rol of DSCP do not appear to
    > > introduce
    > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 any additional security thre= at to hosts that communicate with
    > > STAMP
    > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as defined in [RFC8762].=C2= =A0 As this specification defined the
    > > > > mechanism
    > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to test DSCP mapping, this d= ocument inherits all the security
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> I'm afraid I still don't understa= nd the reasoning here.=C2=A0 In my
    > > > > > >> understanding, the risk stems from the se= mantics of the DCSP field
    > > > > being
    > > > > > >> (for at least some codepoints) site-local= , there not being a
    > > guarantee
    > > > > > >> that the session-sender and session-refle= ctor are on the same
    > > network
    > > > > > >> (and thus, using the same DSCP semantics)= , and the hard
    > > requirement
    > > > > for
    > > > > > >> the Session-Reflector to set the DCSP val= ue indicated by the
    > > > > > >> Session-Sender.=C2=A0 A mechanism for a r= emote entity to induce
    > > generation
    > > > > of
    > > > > > >> local packets with unspecified semantics = is a risk that cannot be
    > > > > > >> qualified at protocol-design time, since = the possible outcomes are
    > > > > > >> inherently unspecified.=C2=A0 This is ana= logous to the situation with
    > > > > > >> undefined behavior in programming languag= es like C -- the
    > > programmer
    > > > > is
    > > > > > >> flat-out required to avoid it, because li= terally anything could go
    > > > > wrong
    > > > > > >> if undefined behavior is triggered.
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > > GIM>> I agree that the inter-QoS domain= case requires more
    > > > > consideration
    > > > > > > in the Security section. I propose the update= d text below:
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 As this specification defined th= e mechanism to test DSCP
    > > mapping,
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this document inherits all the s= ecurity considerations
    > > discussed in
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [RFC2474].=C2=A0 Monitoring and = optional control of DSCP using the
    > > CoS
    > > > > TLV
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 may be used across the Internet = so that the Session-Sender and
    > > the
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Session-Reflector are located in= domains that use different CoS
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 profiles.=C2=A0 Thus, it is esse= ntial that an operator verifies the
    > > set
    > > > > of
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 CoS values that are used in the = Session-Reflector's domain.
    > > Also,
    > > > > an
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 implementation of a Session-Refl= ector SHOULD support a local
    > > policy
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to confirm whether the value sen= t by the Session-Sender can be
    > > used
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as the value of the DSCP field.= =C2=A0 Section 4.4 defines the use of
    > > that
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 local policy.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> This is especially risky when there is th= e possibility for the
    > > > > > >> Session-Reflector to act on packets that = do not have any form of
    > > > > > >> authentication (i.e., could be spoofed fr= om off-path).=C2=A0 But we do
    > > not
    > > > > > >> mention this risk at all, let alone give = guidance on its
    > > mitigation.
    > > > > > >> (Discussion of the security consideration= s of unauthenticated
    > > > > operation
    > > > > > >> would ideally be generalized to all actio= ns/TLVs that have side
    > > > > effects,
    > > > > > >> not just the specific case of setting the= DSCP codepoint.)
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > > GIM>> It seems very challenging for a S= TAMP system to differentiate
    > > > > > > between a duplicate and/or out-of-order test = packet and a replayed
    > > > > packet
    > > > > > > because one of the metrics STAMP test measure= s is the network
    > > > > re-ordering
    > > > > > > metric per RFC 4737 <https://too= ls.ietf.org/html/rfc4737>. We may
    > > > > > > recommend that the rate-limiting of test pack= ets be selected
    > > > > > > conservatively.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> Section 4.2
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> I'd suggest saying that all fields th= at are not filled are
    > > transmitted
    > > > > > >> with all bits set to zero.
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > > GIM>> Thank you for the helpful suggest= ion. Appended Section 4.2:
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Note that all fields not filled = by either a Session-Sender or
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Session-Reflector are transmitte= d with all bits set to zero.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> Section 4.2.1
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Source MAC Address s= ub-TLV - is a 12-octet-long sub-TLV.
    > > The
    > > > > Type
    > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0value is TBA9.= =C2=A0 The value of the Length field MUST equal to
    > > 8.
    > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The Value field= is a 12-octet-long MBZ field that MUST be
    > > zeroed
    > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0on transmission= and ignored on receipt.
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> Value should be 8-octets-long, no?
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > > GIM>> Thank you for catching it! You ar= e absolutely correct. Fixed
    > > this
    > > > > > > and a similar in:
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Source EUI-64 Address su= b-TLV - is a 12-octet-long sub-TLV
    > > that
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0includes the EUI-64= source MAC address.=C2=A0 The Type value is
    > > TBA11.
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The value of the Le= ngth field MUST equal to 8.=C2=A0 The Value
    > > field
    > > > > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0consists of an eigh= t-octet-long EUI-64 field.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >> Section 4.2.2
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A Session-Sender MAY include= the Source MAC Address sub-TLV is
    > > the
    > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Location TLV.=C2=A0 If the S= ession-Reflector receives the Location
    > > TLV
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> nit: s/is/in/
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > > GIM>> Thank you. Fixed (and three more = places in the same
    > > sub-section).
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> Section 4.3
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MUST NOT fill any informatio= n fields except for STAMP TLV
    > > Flags,
    > > > > > >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Type, and Length.=C2=A0 All = other fields MUST be filled with zeroes
    > > The
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > >> nit: missing full stop.
    > > > > > >>
    > > > > > > GIM>> Done.
    > > > > > >
    > > > >
    > >
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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Support (as co-author). IOAM requires a common approach to configure IOAM encap/decap/transit nodes= - and a YANG model is the natural facilitator to arrive at a common approa= ch, which is what this draft supplies. Cheers, Frank From: ippm On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly Sent: Freitag, 30. Oktober 2020 19:41 To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Cc: IPPM Chairs Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang Hello IPPM, This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-zhou-ippm-ioa= m-yang. Now that our IOAM documents are mature and progressing, the chairs = believe it is time to consider the YANG work officially. The document can be found here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-08 Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mon= day, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian --_000_BYAPR11MB25841B329D319D7377218082DAE80BYAPR11MB2584namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Support (as co-author).

     

    IOAM requires a common approach to configure IOAM en= cap/decap/transit nodes – and a YANG model is the natural facilitator= to arrive at a common approach, which is what this draft supplies.

     

    Cheers, Frank

     

    From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> O= n Behalf Of Tommy Pauly
    Sent: Freitag, 30. Oktober 2020 19:41
    To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>
    Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang

     

    Hello IPPM,


    This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-zhou-ipp= m-ioam-yang. Now that our IOAM documents are mature and progressing, the ch= airs believe it is time to consider the YANG work officially.

    The document can be found here:

    https:= //tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-08

    Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, o= n Monday, November 16.

    Best,
    Tommy & Ian

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boundary="_000_DM6PR11MB3115A77AEF9801065557A201BFE80DM6PR11MB3115namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR11MB3115.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 2855d574-6ca0-489f-85e7-08d8865900ec X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Nov 2020 15:46:49.8057 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: H4yXux7kRU2+lbTCbXDyesncQGUJpI1+DZtmq12kOVuRaW1gVYMrH4NUtJPc6YdW6wUWYmIRJbDbL+YvhU8bZw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR1101MB2201 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.14, xch-rcd-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-11.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 15:47:06 -0000 --_000_DM6PR11MB3115A77AEF9801065557A201BFE80DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi IPPM, Yes, support WG adoption of this important work. Thanks, Rakesh From: ippm On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly Sent: Freitag, 30. Oktober 2020 19:41 To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Cc: IPPM Chairs Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang Hello IPPM, This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-zhou-ippm-ioa= m-yang. Now that our IOAM documents are mature and progressing, the chairs = believe it is time to consider the YANG work officially. The document can be found here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-08 Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mon= day, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian --_000_DM6PR11MB3115A77AEF9801065557A201BFE80DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hi IPPM,=

     

    Yes, support WG ado= ption of this important work.

     

    Thanks,<= /span>

    Rakesh

     

     

    From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> O= n Behalf Of Tommy Pauly
    Sent: Freitag, 30. Oktober 2020 19:41
    To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>
    Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang

     

    Hello IPPM,


    This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-zhou-ipp= m-ioam-yang. Now that our IOAM documents are mature and progressing, the ch= airs believe it is time to consider the YANG work officially.

    The document can be found here:

    https:= //tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-08

    Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, o= n Monday, November 16.

    Best,
    Tommy & Ian

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(2603:10b6:5:66::33) by DM6PR11MB2617.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:5:ce::31) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3541.21; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 04:00:32 +0000 Received: from DM6PR11MB3115.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::fdb2:fd4d:1b43:7b36]) by DM6PR11MB3115.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::fdb2:fd4d:1b43:7b36%7]) with mapi id 15.20.3541.024; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 04:00:32 +0000 From: "Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi)" To: "Reshad Rahman (rrahman)" , "Tommy Pauly" , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" CC: IPPM Chairs , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Thread-Index: AQHWrutqxCpe6zKAOkqELdQ0D7z91Km4JBqAgAvOhT4= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 04:00:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-CA, en-US Content-Language: en-CA X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: dmarc.ietf.org; dkim=none (message not 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boundary="_000_DM6PR11MB31158EA0639D94255A69A5F8BFE70DM6PR11MB3115namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR11MB3115.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 326b6150-9771-49fa-5282-08d886bf8059 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 12 Nov 2020 04:00:32.2298 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 0gyRuNxq6f7Uh2Wbgc3sVerJspaoYqia+37ENNr5UGVRcy91oY3ev9Z25K7GSBAmY90nYrfD9VqRVjJzmvMaJw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR11MB2617 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.12, xch-aln-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-7.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 04:00:43 -0000 --_000_DM6PR11MB31158EA0639D94255A69A5F8BFE70DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Reshad for your review comments. We will address them in the next up= dates of the documents. Thanks, Rakesh From: ippm Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2020 at 10:42 AM To: Tommy Pauly , IETF IPPM WG (ippm@i= etf.org) Cc: IPPM Chairs , spring-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi, I have read the 2 documents and support adoption of these documents by the = IPPM WG. I realize the extensions are being proposed for SR but are they really spec= ific to SR? I don=92t believe that=92s the case, so maybe the IPPM document= s should be renamed. Terms such as BSID and SRH are defined in the abbreviations section but not= used, I=92m assuming this comes from when there was a single document. Regards, Reshad. From: ippm on behalf of Tommy Pauly Date: Friday, October 30, 2020 at 2:35 PM To: "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Cc: IPPM Chairs , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-g= andhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hello IPPM, For the past few meetings, we=92ve had updates on the work in the SPRING WG= that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making exte= nsions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it= would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in = the IPPM WG. As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption for draft-gandhi= -ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. The documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 The related SPRING documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether or not y= ou believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Pl= ease provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mo= nday, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian --_000_DM6PR11MB31158EA0639D94255A69A5F8BFE70DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Thanks Reshad for your review comments. We will address them in the next updates of the documents.

     =

    Thanks,

    Rakesh=

     

     

    From: ippm <ippm-bounc= es@ietf.org>
    Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2020 at 10:42 AM
    To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IETF IP= PM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org= <spring-chairs@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi,

     

    I have read the 2 documents and= support adoption of these documents by the IPPM WG.

     

    I realize the extensions are be= ing proposed for SR but are they really specific to SR? I don=92t believe t= hat=92s the case, so maybe the IPPM documents should be renamed.

     

    Terms such as BSID and SRH are = defined in the abbreviations section but not used, I=92m assuming this come= s from when there was a single document.

     

    Regards,

    Reshad.

     

    From= : ippm <ippm-bou= nces@ietf.org> on behalf of Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.i= etf.org>
    Date: Friday, October 30, 2020 at 2:35 PM
    To: "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" <ippm@ietf.org> Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, "spring-chairs@ie= tf.org" <spring-chairs@ietf.org>
    Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and = draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

     

    Hello IPPM,

     

    For the past few meetings, we=92ve had updates on th= e work in the SPRING WG that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documen= ts ended up making extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING a= nd IPPM decided that it would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in the IPPM WG.

     

    As such, we are starting a Working Group call for ad= option for draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-sr= pm.

     

    Please provide your feedback on these documents, and= state whether or not you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by rep= lying to this email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF = 109 meeting week, on Monday, November 16.

     

    Best,

    Tommy & Ian

    --_000_DM6PR11MB31158EA0639D94255A69A5F8BFE70DM6PR11MB3115namp_-- From nobody Thu Nov 12 05:51:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A55A63A0ED2; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 05:51:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bC9KQw51TxBI; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 05:51:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x133.google.com (mail-il1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CEFF63A0ECB; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 05:51:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x133.google.com with SMTP id y9so5320207ilb.0; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 05:51:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=mBd3zCmlpwErhpUYFF/oLMRp/Lg0z/CUiTjuQhC50ic=; b=KdAN43bXNyH7PCUHUfhynzxifbgsgnlYNQrLd39yg1YhbjrTqSHu/giFF1yhIGV4k1 MI99G0aGzwibVcqNFmU9te5Q3D05TKzIch5G3smlDmemlOyC3mEmgw9t8k1of05cq3fS ctZM19zERwfkos1I31Aj4R+9wbfu5LdnTEedoPtM5xVadTBZ2DfAfP2XipS5XNVlypzA TJHCtYBOHMKCyEUFTbH4kLS8p/hEt0cQfxNKSCb69I5xeMISIDk2fuEeaJHDdvsOhrTo U8gbMMH+BqzMdjLwSyJ5uHoYKooOnutJwOwV++XoNX0SyKFkPNh1wRTLEtkVYqkPviIP Ymgw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=mBd3zCmlpwErhpUYFF/oLMRp/Lg0z/CUiTjuQhC50ic=; b=RTXF6azXYcPhWCD0VGsQcNOBhAqjLsIdUrJ+0oGXk4huhTtqWUIdJ/vMUO7GCsw83k 0UiSEocueTvWyNNTqRW2nIOoe+/o03x77OHckbIR1M16t5Wu1bzIoL2hAcG99a4i69Sz nEIwLABkz1IR9nlQu45po2FErV50wv9P4ZVR+cE8FYlVxYvF9wZLRH+QT+kmcZh7GUTm CtPvviiHWWGQNCl+ConpZRtijKih1XSr/tnV9lgtBu0RdBXOYLehnSkEfoiJE3Prxvgs 12PIHBOI4daZTbCdaUr9lFsxWGBP1lrLUnADbNV71HyzobrYsAMREZ/OlcPp8zxD7VYz thmw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5321xt55nS9R3MKdp9UQCVKhrVaqGTG0m92810aeBCrJeM8heyBn Mmx5oNHv7dckvXPy900jhIAqA6zgilh56Q2WdL4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzbz6TKRyw6Nvr4WNLTZ6ykWDuomJGAD0NbUBUDC5SibxcbwoEFyJmTW7RNak0lbdX/icvEofzc55j77qCGw5w= X-Received: by 2002:a92:cc52:: with SMTP id t18mr13320271ilq.124.1605189101815; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 05:51:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <43DADFB5-FE8A-49A1-BF39-1ECC10594211@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <43DADFB5-FE8A-49A1-BF39-1ECC10594211@apple.com> From: Dhruv Dhody Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 19:21:05 +0530 Message-ID: To: Tommy Pauly Cc: "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" , IPPM Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000360c8105b3e93686" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 13:51:45 -0000 --000000000000360c8105b3e93686 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi WG, I support adoption of this YANG draft. A few high-level comments - - Currently all 5 profiles can be configured at the same time in a single ioam-profile (as each of them have a separate container of their own). Is that intentional? - Can I configure an ioam-profile that is applicable to both IPv6 and NSH? The current yang model would force me to create two separate ioam-profile and give them different names! - Currently ACL is the only way to identify the flow for which the IOAM profile needs to be applied. Think about how this could be used alongside SR policy YANG for instance. Maybe a generic grouping that can be used to augment SR Policy? Not sure how to make it work with the current filter-type. Hope these comments help to improve the YANG module! Thanks! Dhruv On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 12:11 AM Tommy Pauly wrote: > Hello IPPM, > > This email starts a Working Group call for adoption > for draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang. Now that our IOAM documents are mature and > progressing, the chairs believe it is time to consider the YANG work > officially. > > The document can be found here: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-08 > > Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not > you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. > Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on *Monday, > November 16*. > > Best, > Tommy & Ian > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > --000000000000360c8105b3e93686 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi WG,=C2= =A0

    I support adoption of this YANG draft. A few high-level comments -=C2= =A0

    - Currently all 5 profiles can be configured at the same time in a sing= le ioam-profile (as each of them have a separate container=C2=A0of their=C2= =A0own). Is that intentional?=C2=A0 =C2=A0

    - Can I configure an ioam-profil= e that is applicable to both IPv6 and NSH? The current yang model would for= ce me to create two separate=C2=A0ioam-profile and give them different name= s!=C2=A0

    - Currently ACL=C2=A0is the only way to identify the flow for whic= h the IOAM profile needs to be applied. Think about how this could be used = alongside=C2=A0SR policy YANG for instance. Maybe a generic grouping that c= an be used to augment SR Policy? Not sure how to make it work with the curr= ent filter-type.=C2=A0

    Hope these=C2=A0comments help to improve the=C2=A0YA= NG module!=C2=A0

    Thanks!=C2=A0
    Dhruv=C2= =A0

    On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 12:11 = AM Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D4= 0apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
    Hel= lo IPPM,

    This email starts a Working Group call for adoption = for=C2=A0draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang. Now that our IOAM documents are mature = and progressing, the chairs believe it is time to consider the YANG work of= ficially.

    The document can be found here:

    https:/= /tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-08

    Please provide= your feedback on these document, and state whether or not you believe the = IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Please provide yo= ur feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting=C2=A0week, on=C2=A0Mond= ay, November 16.

    Best,
    Tommy & Ian
    ___________= ____________________________________
    ippm mailing list
    ippm@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
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mail-io1-xd2c.google.com with SMTP id t8so7137143iov.8 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 10:58:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=OA3DZ/o5FWdp2RLvZs+dgvgHl0i9i3MpTVWeycm8K+Q=; b=bLFUMV0K0P+biInx9wd5zwwPEPTeGvahT2ue4vKlZUi2mlpMt/7JTbTG2o5WxjDsqJ 2lUrvbn/NaLYZQlGkQUfxwOe8J+CDggL6uN/Ofrqd3+iot4vHC2MLTAB0iFiRfh+vOcO VvIju3Ab/Z2sYv2nqyw688euK3sE2BUp7XDQNCAh33Yxiurqz6pcs8atBVnnAdN9IaW1 6IznxLeKbYPz7bvG4CV7Ba4eU/f9HZ7DXQhP5HOmx+/FB/XPf5QsRDvxxhgHalL/lr9L wplYcQaAeMsmFYjlinNtOKzn05Sc9PJlvmqXRp5IzYrVwVnglwpa2bRbBrBE8Re5WVzt Qi0Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=OA3DZ/o5FWdp2RLvZs+dgvgHl0i9i3MpTVWeycm8K+Q=; b=EZd2thXy550TP7Mxhh7Rl65aYC6888lgqOmZMiXxq/CUj1NzX8jyOZ2czGXDeeqlK4 mcpS85u+5U3M6+RpaAixlECB8seNdqsff8ZvnLvWyCRngiCGUNmhhZsZ5vQIbItbqx7G 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X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 18:58:29 -0000 --00000000000036f09b05b3ed7f5e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello IPPM, IETF is looking to publicize the work of the transport area a little more to the media. In particular, we'd like to highlight how recent work in Working Groups like IPPM have a made a difference in industry, government, and society. If any of you work for organizations that could tell a story on how the IPPM standards have improved your enterprise, please email me (do not reply all). I imagine there might be a short written testimonial, and possibly a video interview in 2021. This could be a relatively junior engineer or someone like your CTO. Thanks, Martin --00000000000036f09b05b3ed7f5e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hello IPPM,

    IETF is looking to publiciz= e the work=C2=A0of the transport=C2=A0area a little more to the media. In p= articular, we'd like to highlight how recent work in Working Groups lik= e IPPM have a made a difference in industry, government, and society.
    =

    If any of you work for organizations that could tell a = story on how the IPPM standards have improved your enterprise, please email= me (do not reply all). I imagine there might be a short written testimonia= l, and possibly a video interview in 2021.

    This co= uld be a relatively junior engineer or someone like your CTO.
    Thanks,
    Martin
    --00000000000036f09b05b3ed7f5e-- From nobody Thu Nov 12 23:20:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F16CF3A15F0; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 23:20:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uTrjSlUwH2tP; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 23:20:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd35.google.com (mail-io1-xd35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE81E3A15ED; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 23:20:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd35.google.com with SMTP id p7so8804455ioo.6; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 23:20:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=kZCw1TO9ZnNOrcl4c5yT7FpUmD+FzBa9vZe0qVVZRGI=; b=BMU5B+VQWnGeXCjbVvqjsuIc43fN+Adgfsz07J410SLsFPuDG8bj+07So5LqxfVesn cg7mLzlwfIOYbMkSbK2AK8tOe69gD5h5uC6dN5UGe9f8MdEVHNLePMt6BB5U/Q2baToz k4oYOWmzr72w2Jqu/VJFCY72BXiKDAcb32fOKV/F9GwIms0Xsy4T0iMYc1nyvJv0Vy+r o0TQiI7S6F4eZITtRtTy+hXqutGIbhSLeIPuDwtEquR72qO92YYjrlKIboPganHG8EFC /6kWkrXZorPwVKCaM2j0e0UxoOCoNURuDBOXaBKwnl4aBtVo9DiOqnxQyCAwFXQclNqL qQ6w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=kZCw1TO9ZnNOrcl4c5yT7FpUmD+FzBa9vZe0qVVZRGI=; b=GDrhjKJDnvlTWY6rHUUDDqIWq1UabE5Jmu/t5iHyKkzKLbe/ib2QE1iJVanhmL9wVd oqzP0SMeu9istN+X9t0r8cvzOLNKJoS7iaMQDbtaYPwer8tYM7t5GQBlVevEHpcpxyYn yATv9iwbzfabZNegy3n2pX7wbUv6zdR05aa1SpXBHaPLGaHoR4jJye1WP47ic8N/U570 Uc1yT14qgLzQWDj2xbsyKsU+vuEFR48ToAequrIV/mu9dyRBvhMa5l3mq9ZuPRF+M15m s6qJzULA+OAf830eS4y9N1HJVl093md7u5ZBjsgRDN59MCbnHJJUSsdrBNQ0hRhm9CB7 V56w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531hKiMGV8yU1JVE6vcQ+pd57uwgWflfgIlkc+eFppQIa1vXrIaS F8wil/42SKi3o4bZFn56IpprABIXGEMGWF+VeJFhuAMcNDgdbw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy45n8ewt1c1MGMyOVHUx9c6Gq+WSXj2H5mlXQoEduulh9ldktsdiBZ+5rp1O/zk/3ehtKbKHeCzcAluihJtR0= X-Received: by 2002:a02:9981:: with SMTP id a1mr909358jal.54.1605252029878; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 23:20:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5E408E0E-862E-480B-88FD-890098340EBC@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <5E408E0E-862E-480B-88FD-890098340EBC@apple.com> From: Dhruv Dhody Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 12:49:53 +0530 Message-ID: To: Tommy Pauly Cc: "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" , IPPM Chairs Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 07:20:33 -0000 Hi WG, I suggest adding some text to explain why you don't have an IANA allocation when you are defining a new type and sub-types in this document. It took me a while to figure out that it might be intentional. Related question - - Is it a good idea to use the same name 'IOAM Capabilities TLV' when it has different formats in the echo request and echo reply message? - What about an IANA registry for TSF and TSL field in IOAM Edge-to-Edge Capabilities, some codepoints are reserved for future standardization but no registry. Other than that, I support adoption :) Thanks! Dhruv On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 12:16 AM Tommy Pauly wrote: > > Hello IPPM, > > This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state. This document has been presented several times and discussed within the working group in the context of our overall IOAM work. > > The document can be found here: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state-07 > > Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Monday, November 16. > > Best, > Tommy & Ian > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From nobody Fri Nov 13 01:23:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E2A53A169D for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2020 01:23:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.886 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.886 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) 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    Hi Yali,
    I have read the draft and have some questions.

    1.What is the method by which the intermediate node=
s obtain the timestamp? Hardware or Software? 
    

    It is recommended to add c=
larifications that the intermediate node obtain the timestamp in the same w=
ay as the STAMP sender and reflector.
    

    2.Is it necessary that every =
intermediate node should support the same kind of clock source? 
    

    How to check timestamp inf=
ormation supported by every intermediate node in a case that the type of cl=
ock source supported by every intermediate node is different from that supp=
orted by the STAMP sender/reflector?
    


    

    Thanks
    Liu Chang
    China Unicom
    Email: liuc131@chinaunicom.cn
    Phone: +8618601102572
     

    From: wangyali
    Date: 2020-10-27 21:48
    Subject: [ippm] New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-= extensions-01
    Hello WG,
     
    Draft about extensions to STAMP enable hop-by-hop OAM data measurement= and collection has been updated, which was presented in IETF108. Questions= and comments are welcome.
     
    Because the performance of intermediate nodes and links that STAMP tes= t packets traverse are invisible, to solve this problem, this draft extents= optional TLVs to STAMP and inserts IOAM Trace option data in the test pack= ets or dispatches test packets to the OAM process at OAM Endpoint.
     
    In this case, the STAMP instance does not need to be configured at eve= ry intermediate node to measure the performance of intermediate nodes, whic= h decreases the complexity of OAM in large-scale networks.
     
    What do you think?
     
    Best regards,
    Yali
     
     
    -----Original Message-----
    From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]
    Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 9:03 PM
    To: wangyali <wangyali11@huawei.com>; Tianran Zhou <zhoutianr= an@huawei.com>
    Subject: New Version Notification for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extens= ions-01.txt
     
     
    A new version of I-D, draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01.txt
    has been successfully submitted by Yali Wang and posted to the IETF re= pository.
     
    Name:           draf= t-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions
    Revision:       01
    Title:          Simple Tw= o-way Active Measurement Protocol Extensions for Hop-by-Hop OAM Data Collec= tion
    Document date:  2020-10-27
    Group:          Individua= l Submission
    Pages:          10
    URL:           = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01.tx= t
    Status:         https://datatr= acker.ietf.org/doc/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions/
    Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf= .org/doc/html/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions
    Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/h= tml/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01
    Diff:           http= s://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01
     
    Abstract:
       This document defines optional TLVs which are carried in = Simple Two-
       way Active Measurement Protocol (STAMP) test packets to e= nhance the
       STAMP base functions.  Such extensions to STAMP enab= le OAM data
       measurement and collection at every node and link along a= STAMP test
       packet's delivery path.
     
     
     
     
     
    Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of subm= ission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.=
     
    The IETF Secretariat
     
     
    _______________________________________________
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Please find my follow-up notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag. I hope you've found more detailed comments in the attachments (re-attached for your convenience). I'm looking forward to reading your responses to the detailed comments of all four drafts. Regards, Greg On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:11 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) wrote: > Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and > providing the comments. Attached please find the email replies to your > review sent earlier. The replies are copied inline below for convenience= , > tagged with . > > > > > > *From: *ippm > *Date: *Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM > *To: *Tommy Pauly > *Cc: *IPPM Chairs , spring-chairs@ietf.org < > spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > *Subject: *Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and > draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm > > Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG community, > > I've reviewed these drafts and have some comments to share. Below, please > find my thoughts on whether these drafts can be adopted. More specific > comments on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft an= d > its accompanying draft targetted to the SPRING WG) are in the attached > documents. > > > > Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluated by > answers to these three questions: > > =C2=B7 Is the document(s) reasonably well-written > > I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology from RFCs > 4656/5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for > Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, > "congruent paths", are used in the documents without proper definitions. > Other than that both drafts are readable and reasonably well-written. > > > > We can change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to > Session-Reflector if it helps. > GIM>> I believe that the consistency in terminology between the core RFC and what is intended as its extension is not only helpful to a reader but, to the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications. > There are many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, > 5340, 8330, etc.) and term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without > defining them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having > said that, we can add a reference for them if it helps. > GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. I think I need to clarify my questions. While a reference to any of RFCs you've mentioned, I don't think that will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitalized while referenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can these be used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object? Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using the term "congruent path" in these drafts (using ASCII-art): C---------D / \ A----B E-----F \ / G------------H Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the network as A-B-C-D-E-F. From the definition of "congruent" as "two figures or objects are congruent if they have the same shape and size, or if one has the same shape and size as the mirror image of the other", path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to the SR tunnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to monitor a flow over the SR tunnel is out-of-band and will not produce any meaningful measurement. Of course, for the case of the extensions in drafts, direct loss measurement can be performed, as information collected from node F. So, this example, in my opinion, illustrates two of my concerns: - using a congruent path for an active OAM protocol may produce information that does not reflect the condition experienced by the monitored flow. It seems that the terminology should reflect the fundamental requirement for using active OAM to maintain the test packet= s in-band with the monitored flow. - there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band active OAM protocol for direct packet loss measurement. As demonstrated in this example, direct packet loss can be performed using an out-of-band mechanism, e.g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG data model. > > =C2=B7 Does the document solve a real problem? > > No, it appears that both TWAMP and STAMP drafts define a new > performance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/TWAMP > and STAMP functionality in the respective drafts, and adding the ability = to > collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find sufficient > technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, > extending the existing OAM mechanisms like ICMP multi-part message > extension per RFC 4884. > > > > There is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as > synthetic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP > and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthet= ic > packet loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a > good option here. > GIM>> I agree with the requirements you've listed (though the SPRING WG OAM requirements document has been abandoned and expired 3+ years ago). I believe that there's no sufficient technical reason to use OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for exclusive direct packet loss measurement. > > > =C2=B7 Is the proposed solution technically viable? > > There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced > by the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the > proposed solutions. > > > > About your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security > section in RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security > Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisione= d > in the domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other than this, = I > did not find any other security related issue in your review. > GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference sufficiently explains why the use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, does not create a security risk for the protocol. > > > Thanks, > > Rakesh > > > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly 40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Hello IPPM, > > > > For the past few meetings, we=E2=80=99ve had updates on the work in the S= PRING WG > that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making > extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided > that it would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension > work in the IPPM WG. > > > > As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption > for draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. > > > > The documents are here: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 > > > The related SPRING documents are here: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 > > > > Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether or not > you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. > Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, o= n *Monday, > November 16*. > > > > Best, > > Tommy & Ian > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > --000000000000e053dd05b3fe6856 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Rakesh,
    thank you for your respons= e to my review. Please find my follow-up notes in-lined below under the GIM= >> tag.
    I hope you've found more detailed comments in t= he attachments (re-attached for your convenience). I'm looking forward = to reading your responses=C2=A0to the detailed comments of all four drafts.=

    Regards,
    Greg

    On Tue, Nov 10, 2020= at 8:11 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com> wrote:

    Thank you Greg = for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and providing the co= mments.=C2=A0 Attached please find the email replies to your review sent ea= rlier.=C2=A0 The replies are copied inline below for convenience, tagged with <RG00>.

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org>= ;
    Date: Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM
    To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, = IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.= org) <ippm@ietf.o= rg>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG community,

    I've reviewed these drafts and have some comment= s to share. Below, please find my thoughts on whether these drafts can be a= dopted. More specific comments on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and ST= AMP-related draft and its accompanying=C2=A0draft targetted=C2=A0to the SPRING WG) are in the attached documents.<= /u>

    =C2=A0

    Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document ca= n be evaluated=C2=A0by answers to these three questions:=

    =C2=B7=C2=A0 Is the document(s) reasonably well-written

    I've got surprised that the drafts don't u= se the terminology from RFCs 4656/5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their ow= n terminology for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", are used in th= e documents without proper definitions. Other than that both drafts are rea= dable and reasonably well-written.

    =C2=A0

    <RG00> We= can change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Reflector if = it helps.=C2=A0

    GIM>> I belie= ve that the consistency in terminology between the core RFC and what is int= ended as its extension is not only helpful to a reader but, to the best of = my understanding, is required for IETF specifications.

    <RG00> Th= ere are many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340, 8330, e= tc.) and term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without defining them. I= suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having said that, we can add a reference for them if it helps.

    <= /div>
    GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. = I think I need to clarify my questions. While a reference to any of RFCs yo= u've mentioned, I don't think that will address my concern. In revi= ewed documents, "Link" is capitalized while referenced RFCs used = the lower case form for the term "link". Can these be used interc= hangeably? Do they refer to the same network object?
    Now I'll= try to illustrate my concern with using the term "congruent path"= ; in these drafts (using ASCII-art):
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0C---------D
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0\
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A----B=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0E-----F
    =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0\=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /
    =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0G-----= -------H
    Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the net= work as A-B-C-D-E-F. From the definition of "congruent" as "= two figures or objects are congruent if they have the same shape and size, = or if one has the same shape and size as the mirror image of the other"= ;, path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to the SR tunnel. But a packet of an activ= e OAM intended to monitor a flow over the SR tunnel is out-of-band and will= not produce any meaningful measurement. Of course, for the case of the ext= ensions in drafts, direct loss measurement can be performed, as information= collected from node F. So, this example, in my opinion, illustrates two of= my concerns:
    • using a congruent path for an active OAM pr= otocol may produce information that does not reflect the condition experien= ced by the monitored flow. It seems that the terminology should reflect the= fundamental requirement for using active OAM to maintain the test packets = in-band with the monitored flow.
    • there are no technical requirement= s to justify using in-band active OAM protocol for direct packet loss measu= rement. As demonstrated in this example, direct packet loss can be performe= d using an out-of-band mechanism, e.g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications= based on YANG data model.
    <= div class=3D"gmail-m_-3514351826189250686WordSection1">

    =C2=A0

    =C2=B7=C2=A0 Does the document solve a real problem?

    No, it appears that=C2=A0 both TWAMP and STAMP drafts=C2=A0=C2=A0define a new performance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/= TWAMP and STAMP functionality in the respective drafts, and adding the abil= ity to collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't f= ind sufficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing OAM mechanisms= like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884.<= /p>

    =C2=A0

    <RG00> Th= ere is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as synthetic and = direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWAMP protoc= ols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packet loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for = LM is a good option here.

    GIM>&g= t; I agree with the=C2=A0requirements you've listed (though the SP= RING WG OAM requirements document has been abandoned and expired 3+ yea= rs ago). I believe that there's no sufficient technical reason=C2=A0to = use OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for exclusive direct packet loss measurement.=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    =C2=B7=C2=A0 Is the proposed solution technically viable?<= /u>

    There are too many unaddressed aspects, particular= ly the risk introduced by the protocols on network security, to comprehensi= vely evaluate the proposed solutions.

    =C2=A0

    <RG00> Ab= out your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security section in= RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Section as wel= l. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in the domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other = than this, I did not find any other security related issue in your review.<= /span>

    GIM>> I don't think that = a mere reference sufficiently explains why the use of zero UDP checksum in = IPv6 header is not decremental, does not create a security risk for the pro= tocol.

    =C2=A0

    Thanks,<= u>

    Rakesh

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    Regards,

    Greg

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly <tpa= uly=3D40app= le.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

    Hello IPPM,

    =C2=A0

    For the past few meetings, we=E2=80=99ve had updates= on the work in the SPRING WG that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those d= ocuments ended up making extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SP= RING and IPPM decided that it would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in the IPPM WG.

    =C2=A0

    As such, we are starting a Working Group call for ad= option for=C2=A0draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-sr= pm.

    =C2=A0

    Please provide your feedback on these documents, and= state whether or not you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by rep= lying to this email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF = 109 meeting week, on Monday, November 16.

    =C2=A0

    Best,

    Tommy & Ian

    _______________________________________________
    ippm mailing list
    ippm@ietf.org
    ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

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bulk Reply-To: ippm@ietf.org Message-ID: <160547198760.19537.14082228581625168893@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 12:26:27 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-10.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 20:26:28 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF. Title : Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol Optional Extensions Authors : Greg Mirsky Xiao Min Henrik Nydell Richard Foote Adi Masputra Ernesto Ruffini Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-10.txt Pages : 32 Date : 2020-11-15 Abstract: This document describes optional extensions to Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol (STAMP) that enable measurement of performance metrics. The document also defines a STAMP Test Session Identifier and thus updates RFC 8762. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-10 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-10 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-10 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Nov 15 12:29:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C4633A0D84; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 12:29:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vR8SPa0l3goA; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 12:29:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x12f.google.com (mail-lf1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 898B43A0BB3; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 12:29:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id e139so2682065lfd.1; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 12:29:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Z215G5AWIt8uQe/mXqHhkuhBKYVhROc6S1+4jPGNmKU=; b=uFiL+0UHQYx/hy1+1XJOR85Es+itwipNHcAn6Mr36+iRk8oKiWM880xNfzFJ2uSf+e QkpKUA0IPHpHCf5FVkjap5INAmJ2AhRJ+l3Kx8QSzQDnwaf3b3rSYJA5dz1E/wDtjFe9 F5/2pk5NwRzMhM4V/qX5LjhZqGRw7W+rOuEdqLt/kDZIE7CYqNOLPEyAfcuzIvBYVrtA ybn/dDyM22/tkANaWXkUyQdMrEWogu+kXDXSE2beH3xg2bXpmrnYvbS11ZNzt60TFGyU cl7nBGbUMhMbvXbHarzNIv2PjTzsL5ZCh4k6+vhPtVW4bVJBJC3s4Eu+4+CGpiNS7APH eeJg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=Z215G5AWIt8uQe/mXqHhkuhBKYVhROc6S1+4jPGNmKU=; b=hlsSGtUQvxDyYiG3mMWWXld83fnE6+9ZpEe05Q4sxWgo7TzktHWT9pQYKX0PfaKjJb DphDDnRLS5wJC6b59zlJBygSEnQktbRdyR+4EyZVWeMxV8tTtcJAoIO1LM4uviKB2rpm rj4i+84qV10cllWXXvFCz8s5+3Mr+wXf0kJ10Dq88k6Z2fH8tJT+tu9huuQsjIpaZNYl obk/gF5KdwqoK0T42j+ZnrbLn+89LKpRC4n9f2bTDltt5zynvlPF8VesMr2jnkwQbZnH 3dhjgFl9oWcI9wKehgAXpdFYBmrEFPlK8GJ6yIB78HGp+8s1R6HpscPqkDmKA3aYcB+0 DTaQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530KZWSqzsE2cbCX/J1o5tLksE1Qqijwi6frTMJR74f4CRe5Whup hQ8bnx4EhWAn7NAJHfuU0kX2CnbCdOZyaKcPufosFCnH X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwA8buh14/h8iDaxGbt1y5zVCvyYk8AS59VtMF+etBQoMfT4NOqovrQM6SO+RCjoaWYS6OSKxTyh0VpB+7Yo8c= X-Received: by 2002:a19:f243:: with SMTP id d3mr3953875lfk.534.1605472170440; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 12:29:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160547198788.19537.15229397486486707601@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <160547198788.19537.15229397486486707601@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 12:29:18 -0800 Message-ID: To: IPPM Chairs , IETF IPPM WG , Martin Duke , Benjamin Kaduk Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006a7c1905b42b1e68" Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-10.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 20:29:41 -0000 --0000000000006a7c1905b42b1e68 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, updates in this version address the DISCUSS from Benjamin Kaduk. Many thanks to Ben for his reviews and great discussions that helped to improve the document. Please let me know if there are any remaining questions. Regards, Greg (on behalf of the authors) ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Date: Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 12:26 PM Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-10.txt To: Henrik Nydell , Xiao Min , Ernesto Ruffini , Richard Foote , Adi Masputra , Greg Mirsky A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-10.txt has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv Revision: 10 Title: Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol Optional Extensions Document date: 2020-11-15 Group: ippm Pages: 32 URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-10.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv/ Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-10 Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-10 Abstract: This document describes optional extensions to Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol (STAMP) that enable measurement of performance metrics. The document also defines a STAMP Test Session Identifier and thus updates RFC 8762. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --0000000000006a7c1905b42b1e68 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Dear All,
    updates in this version address the DISCUSS = from Benjamin Kaduk. Many thanks to Ben for his reviews and great discussio= ns that helped to improve the document.
    Please let me know if the= re are any remaining=C2=A0questions.

    Regards,
    Greg (on behalf of the authors)

    ---------- Forwarded message ----= -----
    From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
    Date: Sun, Nov 15, 2020 a= t 12:26 PM
    Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-o= ption-tlv-10.txt
    To: Henrik Nydell <hnydell@accedian.com>, Xiao Min <xiao.min2@zte.com.cn>, Ernesto Ruffini <eruffini@outsys.org>, Richard Foote <= ;footer.foote@nokia.com>, = Adi Masputra <adi@apple.com>, Gr= eg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.co= m>



    A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-10.txt
    has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the
    IETF repository.

    Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-= tlv
    Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A010
    Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Simple Two-way Active Measurement = Protocol Optional Extensions
    Document date:=C2=A0 2020-11-15
    Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ippm
    Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 32
    URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-opti= on-tlv-10.txt
    Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv/
    Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tl= v
    Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0h= ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-10
    Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ippm-stamp-= option-tlv-10

    Abstract:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes optional extensions to Simple Two-way = Active
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0Measurement Protocol (STAMP) that enable measurement of perfor= mance
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0metrics.=C2=A0 The document also defines a STAMP Test Session = Identifier
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0and thus updates RFC 8762.




    Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
    until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

    The IETF Secretariat


    --0000000000006a7c1905b42b1e68-- From nobody Sun Nov 15 16:07:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BCF63A0639; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 16:07:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o6FGMlA2EpJ8; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 16:07:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22e.google.com (mail-lj1-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C1293A0400; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 16:07:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22e.google.com with SMTP id v20so18165017ljk.8; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 16:07:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+agt6KNEuzE+CcAvcMKcLZdvv578x69KTjtQixgKdHM=; b=fyi/YVnPAGvANwslwE8/VXamAUyvyGs+4WMI6tIVQI/IRXvinYeHQO5AKzzxTeU81d OF4Es+nSDmhpZh8MHCAQ1HiREQrexiUsXbODB6liJOi4eeYxmePpYib+uCECGWHWfu6n uTkCJv5+IpQKjoOPrPywcUdk6GTPuZOmgaTzO+N1p3lw6hrjTKjUTUM2sK1il55MKV1w pCyFvQxXZ8gjItDMe5wzHAhOTMJ6UmpMasVylGz/vz7f/XTyOHOayjsRq1DEHxgLxEb1 it3tBEOMC2/lVi6Tc+ep4oW5h07PTkwAFQGsYMJU3xvlXbFDTUCkgavtV61OIYJBPXw2 CTGg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+agt6KNEuzE+CcAvcMKcLZdvv578x69KTjtQixgKdHM=; b=gDvd8NvlmsR9Jp5C4TCa9lKdAPpjqLRjdohoe1ZtwFIgLBYPkO0n4AwCkU0amR59Q2 /k+bFYA0NYKue32gJEifP4A3HcuFUx5nt41ef49i3QsQxwk5ETiswBWZRZZg4z4rWnzx uNOe50WagY6RVp4+VVwf1/Wh6lPx4cqBSXQsqcRHSPQFfbVq9jEDINcEeYMmKrqam4Ib f6IkR+EhtusRLi6vmu5ZFDq06sCvx6kEA2Qrg5wLSOzBL2swIRrF2PwLWo4VfFn/ELEm 671SPcp2KVn6kfWxhyzGbcpGN75YC5HtpEM1v8TMyGN3pTdNEqf2FmHehe0g3d5EFI06 5e+A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531NhAtIZ0tUsXbWY2wHR6VKKqXWhmGD1Z3hxrMFLxUqPv23aVrJ t/mc7Sa8hIRNFU4VINjyZUMusmVM8jkwiEPNV2P7gjofeXA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw+EMv3ZiHqjgwkYsHHcb6VhSqrhmOiPQGGfQTt+7e9Yf31tC52798mUuxi0kdzkYCY+BSCmJ6Z/ltRL5uw3JI= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9694:: with SMTP id q20mr5354384lji.279.1605485260314; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 16:07:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 16:07:28 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi)" Cc: James Guichard , "spring@ietf.org" , "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a21bee05b42e2a49" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] WG Adoption Call for https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 00:07:48 -0000 --000000000000a21bee05b42e2a49 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Rakesh, thank you for the response to my comments. Please find my follow-up notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag. Regards, Greg On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:01 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) wrote: > Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and > providing the comments. Note that many of the comments here on STAMP draf= t > are repeated from the previous comments on the TWAMP Light draft. Please > see replies inline with . The repeated comments are tagged with > to avoid duplicated discussions. > > > > *From: *ippm > *Date: *Friday, November 6, 2020 at 11:18 AM > *To: *James Guichard > *Cc: *spring@ietf.org , ippm-chairs@ietf.org < > ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org , > IETF IPPM WG > *Subject: *Re: [ippm] [spring] WG Adoption Call for > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 > > Dear Chairs of the SPRING and IPPM WGs, Authors, et al., > > I've found myself in the situation when two related drafts are in the WG > APs in the SPRING and IPPM WG (with the possibility that expertise from t= he > third WG, BFD WG, might be desirable to review the "liveness monitoring")= . > Because these drafts are closely related, I've decided to combine my > questions and comments in a single thread. I hope that would be acceptabl= e > and considered by the SPRING WG as well as IPPM WG. > > Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluated by > answers to these three questions: > > - Is the document(s) reasonably well-written > > It was a surprise finding out that both drafts don't use the terminology > from RFC 8762 STAMP and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sende= r > and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", > are used in the documents without proper definitions. Other than that, bo= th > drafts are readable. > > > > We can change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to > Session-Reflector if it helps. > GIM>> I believe that the consistency in terminology between the core RFC 8762 and what is intended as its extension is not only helpful to a reader but, to the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications. But I don't think that switching the terminology will fix the fundamental issue with *stamp-srpm drafts. The operation that is required from the remote entity, whether it is referred to as responder or Session-Reflector, is not defined in RFC 8762, nor even in draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv. In my opinion, the behavior required, as described in the *stamp-srpm drafts, cannot be characterized as an extension of STAMP but presents a completely new protocol that, if there's a need in the new PM OAM protocol, must be properly defined. > There are many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, > 5340, 8330, etc.) and term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without > defining them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having > said that, we can add a reference for them if it helps. > GIM>> Thank you for the references to these RFCs. I think I need to clarify my questions. I don't think that a reference to any RFC will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitalized while referenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can these be used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object? Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using the term "congruent path" in these drafts (using ASCII-art): C---------D / \ A----B E-----F \ / G------------H Consider an SR domain that includes all the nodes shown in the network diagram. An SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the network as A-B-C-D-E-F. Is A-B-G-H-E-F congruent to it? From the definition of "congruent" as "two figures or objects are congruent if they have the same shape and size, or if one has the same shape and size as the mirror image of the other", it looks as the path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to that SR tunnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to monitor a flow over the SR tunnel is out-of-band relative to that flow and will not produce any meaningful measurement. Of course, for the case of the extensions in drafts *-twamp-srpm, direct loss measurement can be performed, as information collected from node F and packets that collect the counters are not required to be in-band with the monitored flow. So, this example, in my opinion, illustrates two of my concerns: - using a congruent path for active performance measurement, e.g., TWAMP or TWAMP Light, may produce information that does not reflect the condit= ion experienced by the monitored flow. It seems that the terminology should reflect the fundamental requirement of ensuring that active OAM test packets are in-band with the monitored flow. - there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band test packets for direct packet loss measurement. In fact, using the in-band method for collecting in-profile counters leads to a waste of bandwidth, which may have a negative impact on services that require low-latency and/or low packet loss. As demonstrated in this example, direct packet l= oss can be performed using an out-of-band mechanism, e.g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG data model. > > - Does the document solve a real problem? > > No, it appears that the changes described in these drafts are only to > achieve in-band collection of counters of "in-profile" packets. Firstly, > drafts don't provide any arguments about why such collection should be > performed using the in-band method rather than using the out-of-band > collection approach. Secondly, even if there are any benefits of in-band > collection, that can be more easily achieved by extending other OAM, e.g.= , > ICMP, tools. > > > > There is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as > synthetic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP > and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthet= ic > packet loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a > good option here. > GIM>> While I agree with the generic requirements you've listed I'm a bit confused about how the deployment of OWAMP and TWAMP protocols can be related to the proposed in *-stamp-srpm extensions. STAMP, similar to OWAMP and TWAMP, is the active measurement protocol, per the definition of RFC 7799. The direct loss measurement method is clearly a passive method and, in my opinion, it is decremental to the network to use in-band active method collecting in-profile counters when there is no technical requirement to use such an intrusive method. > > > - Is the proposed solution technically viable? > > There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced > by the protocol on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the > proposed solution. > > About your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security > section in RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security > Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisione= d > in the domain by the operator for STAMP. Other than this, I did not find > any other security related issue in your review below. > GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference sufficiently explains why the use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, does not create a security risk for the protocol. > draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm > > - Can you define a Link and how it is different from an SR Path? > > There are many existing RFCs that use term =E2=80=9CLink=E2=80=9D = (e.g. RFC 5613, > 5340, 8330, etc.). Similarly term =E2=80=9CSR Path=E2=80=9D has been used= in existing RFCs > (e.g. 8664). I suspect these are well-known terms. > GIM>> I believe that every well-known term has been defined somewhere. Since the document differentiates between the two, I hope that it would not be too difficult to explain or illustrate what is the difference. > > - It is not clear how the destination UDP port numbers are selected. > Does the draft change procedure defined in Section 4.1 RFC 8762? > > There is no change. > GIM>> Thank you for clarifying that. I'd note that the current text is not clear about that. > > - It is not clear what "the congruent path" means. The definition of > the congruent in geometry tells that a congruent object has the same s= hape > and size, but is allowed to flip, slide or turn. How a path can be > congruent to another path? > > There are many existing RFCs that use term =E2=80=9CCongruent Path= =E2=80=9D (e.g. > RFC 5921, 6669) without defining them. I suspect it is because it is > well-known term. Having said that, we can add a reference for it if it > helps reader. > GIM>> I've clarified my question about the term "congruent path" above. I hope that the diagram makes it clearer. > > - An example of the provisional model is Section 3.1 seems well-suited > for a YANG data model. What changes to the STAMP YANG data model defin= ed in > draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang > propose= d > in these drafts? > > Yes, this can be Yang model. We can review > draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang > and add any > missing items in a separate draft. We can also add a reference in this > draft. > GIM>> Management of a protocol, configuration is an integral part of the protocol specification. I've expected that *-stamp-srpm drafts include more substantial text about the management than "out of the scope". In my opinion, a section on the management is required and if the authors decide to augment STAMP Yang data model, it should include the new YANG module. > > - In Section 4.1 noted that > > The probe messages defined in [RFC8762] are used for delay > measurement for Links and end-to-end SR Paths including SR Policies. > For loss measurement, the probe messages defined in [I-D.gandhi-ippm- > stamp-srpm] are used. > > It necessary to point that RFC 8762 support packet delay and packet loss > measurements in the same test session using test packets defined in the > STAMP base specification. I believe that the need yet for another method = to > perform the loss measurement is not sufficiently demonstrated and does > appear as duplication of functionality already available in STAMP. > > > > This is explained in the third paragraph of Section 1. > GIM>> I cannot find any technical explanation for the introduction of the new PM protocol to collect in-profile counters and not use the Direct Measurement TLV defined in draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv (already cleared IESG review). Could you help me by pointing to the explanatory test in the paragraph you're referring to: This document specifies procedures for sending and processing probe query and response messages for Performance Measurement in SR networks. The procedure uses the mechanisms defined in [RFC8762] (STAMP) and its TLV extensions [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv] for Performance Measurement. The procedure specified is applicable to SR-MPLS and SRv6 data planes and is used for both Links and end-to- end SR Paths including SR Policies and Flex-Algo IGP Paths. Unless otherwise specified, the mechanisms defined in [RFC8762] and [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv] are not modified by this document. > > - Could you expand on the reasoning why in Section 4.1.1.1 stated that > > A separate user-configured > destination UDP port is used for the delay measurement in > authentication mode due to the different probe message format. > > I cannot find similar requirement in RFC 8762 and would appreciate a > technical explanation of the choice made in this specification. > > > > Does RFC 8762 support simultaneous sessions for authenticated and > non-authenticated modes? If yes, can you please point to the procedure in > the RFC 8762 and we can simply refer to it? I am not sure how both packe= t > formats be distinguished by a reflector node when using the same UDP port= . > GIM>> Whether STAMP test session is in authenticated or unauthenticated mode is the matter of configuration (as it is for TWAMP). You can check the STAMP YANG data model draft and TWAMP YANG data model (the latter could be useful for *-twamp-srpm drafts). As for distinguished of two concurrent sessions between a pair of nodes, in STAMP one can take advantage of the STAMP Session Identifier (SSID) that is defined in Section 3 of draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv. If there is only one session, then, in my view, the configuration of the STAMP session's mode should suffice. Would you agree? > > - Section 4.2.1 refers to Sender Control Code (though it is defined > in draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. Could you explain why it is important= to > inform the Session-Reflector that the reflected test packet be sent > out-of-band? What if only in-band return path is available? Would the > Session-Reflector discard test packets in such situation? > > Out-of-band is the current behaviour and there is no change in the > existing behaviour. We can clarify in the next revision. > GIM>> I'm confused. An active measurement protocol cannot be out-of-band, otherwise, the measured metrics are meaningless. Thus, an implementation of STAMP must ensure that the test packet is in-band with the monitored flow. So, when you're saying "there is no change in the existing behavior" are you referring to the behavior of STAMP or to something else? If your intention to use the new protocol out-of-band, that clearly will be a change of STAMP behavior. > > - I got confused by the following in Section 4.2.2 > > In two-way measurement mode, when using a bidirectional path, the > probe response message as defined in Figure 6 is sent back to the > sender node on the congruent path of the data traffic on the same > reverse direction Link or associated reverse SR Policy > [I-D.ietf-pce-sr-bidir-path]. > > If a Path Segment SID associated with the test session, there seems no > need to require the Session-Reflector look for in-band path. Would you > agree? > > > > No. Existence of Path Segment ID does not mean in-band reply. It may > be needed for RX counter for direct-mode loss measurement. > GIM>> Can you please clarify the use case for using the Path Segment SID in the test packet? The text, as quoted, gives the impression that it is needed for "the probe response message as defined in Figure 6 is sent back to the sender node on the congruent path of the data traffic on the same reverse direction Link or associated reverse SR Policy." I cannot find any text that explains how the Segment Path SID in the test packet may be used by "RX counter for direct-mode loss measurement". > > - How's the method described in Section 4.2.3 is different from the > method described in RFC 8403 ? > What is distinctly unique about the loopback mode proposed in the sect= ion? > > There is no mention of Loopback mode or STAMP / TWAMP / RFC 5357 / > RFC 8762 in RFC 8403. > GIM>> Yes, RFC 8403 doesn't mention these RFCs, nor refers to RFC 8762. In my opinion, it was demonstrated in RFC 8403 how SR, SR-MPLS in the case discussed, can be used to circle the test packet through the SR domain. By using that method, an operator may not only detect the failure in the network but, by correlating failure reports from the intersecting traces, automate the failure localization. What is the use case for the Loopback mode? Roundtrip delay and roundtrip packet loss measurement? What requires standardization? Is the "liveness monitoring" functionally identical to path continuity > monitoring provided by BFD? > > STAMP probe messages are used for synthetic packet loss which can > be used to detect connection loss. The draft simply highlights this obvio= us > metric. > GIM>> I cannot agree that STAMP can efficiently be used to detect the path continuity loss. Perhaps even stronger, I would not advise and strongly discourage the use of STAMP for path continuity monitoring. BFD (RFC 5880) is intentionally lightweight and is capable of detecting a failure within 10 msec. Do you believe that STAMP test packets should be transmitted with 3.3 msec interval? > > - It appears that second and third paragraphs on Section 4.3.1 > contradict with the first paragraph. Need to point that RFC 8762 does = not > specify the value set in TTL/Hop Limit field, thus reference in the fi= rst > paragraph seems misleading. I couldn't find ::FFFF:127/104 range being > mentioned in the draft. Could you clarify when it is used? > > We can update the sentence in the first paragraph as following: > > The TTL field in the IPv4 and MPLS headers of the probe query messages is > set to 255 *[RFC5357] except following two cases*. > GIM>> Can please you quote the text in RFC 5357 that requires setting TTL/Hop Limit to 255? > > The IPv6 address ::1/128 is mentioned in the draft at couple of plac= es. We can update the above text. > > > - Section 4.3.3 states that a zero-value UDP checksum may be used in > some scenarios. RFC 8085 allows that but in very specific cases that a= re > documented in detail in Section 3.4.1. Do you believe that the case of= this > protocol checks all the requirements for allowing the use of Zero UDP > checksum as specified in RFC 8085? Also, I believe that allowing the u= se of > Zero UDP checksum in some scenarios, this protocol introduces a securi= ty > threat that must be thoroughly analyzed in the Security Considerations > section. > > This is described in RFC 6936. It will be very specific to the UDP > port provisioned for STAMP. We will add reference to RFC 6936 in Security > Section. > GIM>> RFC 6936 provides us with an exceptionally detailed analysis of that question. I don't think that a reference can explain why using zero UDP checksum is an acceptable practice. I recall that concern about the IPv6 security was the reason why RFC 7820 is applicable only to IPv4 and includes the following text in regard to IPv6: UDP over IPv6, as defined in [IPv6], does not allow a zero checksum, except in specific cases [ZeroChecksum]. As discussed in [ZeroChecksum], the use of a zero checksum is generally not recommended and should be avoided to the extent possible. And if the authors believe that they have an exceptional case, the case must be stated. > > - Section 7, as I understand it, suggests that performance measurement > can be combined with "liveness monitoring", i.e.path continuity monito= ring. > How fast path failure detection you expect in such combination? How it= is > comparable to the the failure detection time guaranteed using BFD? > > STAMP probe messages are used for synthetic packet loss which can > be used to detect connection loss (performance metric). The draft simply > highlights this obvious metric. > GIM>> What could be the detection interval when using STAMP? How that is compared with BFD? draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm > > - Introduction states that > > The STAMP message with a TLV for "direct measurement" can be used for > combined Delay + Loss measurement [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv]. > > In fact, that is not accurate. RFC 8762 which provides the base > specification of the STAMP protocol already supports packet delay and > packet loss (a.k.a. synthetic packet loss) measurement. > > Ok, we can update the text to indicate *synthetic* loss. > > - Further, the draft concludes that > > However, in order to use only for loss measurement purpose, it > requires the node to support the delay measurement messages and > support timestamp for these messages (which may also require clock > synchronization). > > I disagree that the the clock synchronization is required for STAMP. It i= s > recommended for one-way delay measurement but even without the clock > synchronization STAMP supports the round-trip delay measurement and one-w= ay > delay variation can be calculated. > > We can update text to : (*which requires clock synchronization for > one-way delay measurement).* > > - The conclusion on Introduction is, in my view, misleading as the > proposed solution is not an extension of STAMP but update of RFC 8762.= And > since this is changes the foundation of RFC 8762 that specifies active > two-way performance measurement protocol, another method for collectin= g > counters and/or other telemetry information should be sought. For exam= ple, > ICMP using multi-part message extensions, as defined in RFC 4884 > . > > As mentioned earlier, I am not sure extending ICMP to do PM is a > good option here. > GIM>> I think that we can have a single mechanism instead of two defined in *twamp-srpm nd *stamp-srpm. Would be interesting to hear from SPRING and IPPM WGs. > > > Thanks, > > Rakesh > > > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 5:52 AM James Guichard < > james.n.guichard@futurewei.com> wrote: > > Dear WG: > > > > This message starts a 3 week WG adoption call for > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03, ending > November 12th 2020. Please note that this document has several changes > from v-02 that were requested by the SPRING and IPPM chairs. For this > reason, the chairs have extended the adoption call for an additional week > to allow the WG enough time to review these changes before deciding on WG > adoption. > > > > Some background: > > > > Several review comments were received previously for document > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-02. The SPRING > and IPPM chairs considered those comments, and upon review of this versio= n > of the document, determined the following: > > > > - The SPRING document should describe only the procedures relevant to > SPRING with pointers to non-SPRING document/s that define any extensio= ns. > Several extensions including* Control Code Field Extension for STAMP > Messages*, *Loss Measurement Query Message Extensions*, *Loss > Measurement Response Message Extensions*, *Node Address TLV Extensions= *, > and *Return Path TLV Extensions* were included in > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-02 and > should be removed from the SPRING document. > - The STAMP extensions included in > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-02 should > be described in a new document published in the IPPM WG. > > > > These conclusions were discussed with the authors of > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-02 the result > of which is the publication of the following two documents: > > > > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03. The > subject of this WG adoption call. > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00. This > document will be progressed (if determined by the WG) within the IPPM = WG. > > > > After review of the SPRING document please indicate support (or not) for > WG adoption to the mailing list. Please also provide comments/reasons for > that support (or lack thereof) as silence will not be considered as conse= nt. > > Finally, the chairs would like to thank the authors for their efforts in > this matter. > > Thanks! > > Jim, Bruno, & Joel > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > --000000000000a21bee05b42e2a49 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Rakesh,
    thank you for the response= to my comments.=C2=A0Please find my follow-up notes in-lined below under t= he GIM>> tag.

    Regards,
    Greg
    <= /div>
    O= n Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:01 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com> wrote:

    Thank you Greg for taking time for tho= roughly reviewing the documents and providing the comments. Note that many = of the comments here on STAMP draft are repeated from the previous comments= on the TWAMP Light draft. Please see replies inline with <RG>. The repeated comments are tagged with <RG00>= to avoid duplicated discussions.

    =C2=A0

    From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org>= ;
    Date: Friday, November 6, 2020 at 11:18 AM
    To: James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>
    Cc: spring@ietf= .org <spring@ie= tf.org>, i= ppm-chairs@ietf.org <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, = IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ie= tf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] WG Adoption Call for h= ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03<= /u>

    Dear Chairs of the SPRING and IPPM WGs, Authors, et = al.,

    I've found myself in the situation when two rela= ted drafts are in the WG APs in the SPRING and IPPM WG (with the possibilit= y that expertise from the third WG, BFD WG, might be desirable to review th= e "liveness monitoring"). Because these drafts are closely related, I've decided to combine my questions and c= omments in a single thread. I hope that would be acceptable and considered = by the SPRING WG as well as IPPM WG.

    Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can = be evaluated=C2=A0by answers to these three questions:

    • Is the document(s) reasonably well-written

    It was a=C2=A0surprise finding out that both drafts = don't use the terminology from RFC 8762 STAMP and introduce their own t= erminology for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g.= , Links, "congruent paths", are used in the documents without proper definitions. Other than that, both drafts are rea= dable.

    =C2=A0

    <RG00> We= can change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Reflector if = it helps.

    GIM>= > I believe that the consistency in terminology between the core RFC 876= 2 and what is intended as its extension is not only helpful to a reader but= , to the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications. But= I don't think that switching the terminology will fix the fundamental = issue with *stamp-srpm drafts. The operation that is required from the remo= te entity, whether it is referred to as responder or Session-Reflector, is = not defined in RFC 8762, nor even in draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv. In m= y opinion, the behavior required, as described in the *stamp-srpm drafts, c= annot be characterized as an extension of STAMP but presents a completely n= ew protocol that, if there's a need in the new PM OAM protocol, must be= properly defined.=C2=A0

    <RG00> Th= ere are many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340, 8330, e= tc.) and term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without defining them. I= suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having said that, we can add a reference for them if it helps.

    <= /div>
    GIM>> Thank you for th= e references to these RFCs. I think I need to clarify my questions. I don&#= 39;t think that a reference to any RFC will address my concern. In reviewed= documents, "Link" is capitalized while referenced RFCs used the = lower case form for the term "link". Can these be used interchang= eably? Do they refer to the same network object?
    Now I'll try= to illustrate my concern with using the term "congruent path" in= these drafts (using ASCII-art):
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0C---------D
    = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0\
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A----B=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0E-----F
    =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0\=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /
    =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0G-----= -------H
    Consider an SR domain that includes all the nodes shown = in the network diagram. An SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the network= as A-B-C-D-E-F. Is A-B-G-H-E-F congruent to it? From the definition of &qu= ot;congruent" as "two figures or objects are congruent if they ha= ve the same shape and size, or if one has the same shape and size as the mi= rror image of the other", it looks as the path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruen= t to that SR tunnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to monitor a fl= ow over the SR tunnel is out-of-band relative to that flow and will not pro= duce any meaningful measurement. Of course, for the case of the extensions = in drafts *-twamp-srpm, direct loss measurement can be performed, as inform= ation collected from node F and packets that collect the counters are not r= equired to be in-band with the monitored flow. So, this example, in my opin= ion, illustrates two of my concerns:
    • using a congruent path for active performance measurement, e.g., TWA= MP or TWAMP Light, may produce information that does not reflect the condit= ion experienced by the monitored flow. It seems that the terminology should= reflect the fundamental requirement of ensuring that active OAM test packe= ts are in-band with the monitored flow.
    • = there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band test packets f= or direct packet loss measurement. In fact, using the in-band method for co= llecting in-profile counters leads to a waste of bandwidth, which may have = a negative impact on services that require low-latency and/or low packet lo= ss. As demonstrated in this example, direct packet loss can be performed us= ing an out-of-band mechanism, e.g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications bas= ed on YANG data model.
    =C2=A0

    • Does the document solve a real problem?

    No, it appears that the changes described in these d= rafts are only to achieve in-band collection of counters of "in-profil= e" packets. Firstly, drafts don't provide any arguments about why = such collection should be performed using the in-band method rather than using the out-of-band collection approach. Secondly, ev= en if there are any benefits of in-band collection, that can be more easily= achieved by extending other OAM, e.g., ICMP, tools.

    =C2=A0

    <RG00> Th= ere is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as synthetic and = direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWAMP protoc= ols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packet loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for = LM is a good option here.

    =C2=A0GIM>> While I agree with the generic requirements you&= #39;ve listed I'm a bit confused about how the deployment=C2=A0of OWAMP= and TWAMP protocols can be related to the proposed in *-stamp-srpm extensi= ons. STAMP, similar to OWAMP and TWAMP, is the active measurement protocol,= per the definition of RFC 7799. The direct loss measurement method is clea= rly a passive method and, in my opinion, it is decremental to the network t= o use in-band active method collecting in-profile counters when there is no= technical requirement to use such an intrusive method.

    =C2=A0

    • Is the proposed solution technically viable?

    There are too many unad= dressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced by the protocol on networ= k security, to comprehensively evaluate the proposed solution.

    <RG00> Ab= out your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security section in= RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in the = domain by the operator for STAMP. Other than this, I did not find any other= security related issue in your review below.

    <= /div>
    =C2=A0GIM>> I don't think that a mer= e reference sufficiently explains why the use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 = header is not decremental, does not create a security risk for the protocol= .
    =C2=A0
    <= div lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">

    =

    draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm

    • Can you define a Link and how it is different from an SR Path?

    <RG00> Th= ere are many existing RFCs that use term =E2=80=9CLink=E2=80=9D (e.g. RFC 5= 613, 5340, 8330, etc.). Similarly term =E2=80=9CSR Path=E2=80=9D has been u= sed in existing RFCs (e.g. 8664). I suspect these are well-known terms.

    <= /div>
    GIM>> I believe that every well-known te= rm has been defined somewhere. Since the document differentiates between th= e two, I hope that it would not be too difficult to explain or illustrate w= hat is the difference.=C2=A0

    • It is not clear how the destination UDP port numbers are selected. Does the= draft change procedure defined in Section 4.1 RFC 8762?
      • =

    <RG> Ther= e is no change.

    G= IM>> Thank you for clarifying that. I'd note that the current tex= t is not clear about that.=C2=A0
    =

    =

    • It is not clear what "the congruent path" means. The definition o= f the congruent in geometry tells that a congruent object has the same shap= e and size, but is allowed to flip, slide or turn. How a path can be congru= ent to another path?

    <RG00> Th= ere are many existing RFCs that use term =E2=80=9CCongruent Path=E2=80=9D (= e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without defining them. I suspect it is because it is w= ell-known term. Having said that, we can add a reference for it if it helps reader.

    GIM>> I've clarified my question about the term "congruent = path" above. I hope that the diagram makes it clearer.=C2=A0

    • An example of the provisional model is Section 3.1 seems well-suited for a = YANG data model. What changes to the STAMP YANG data model defined in draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang=C2=A0=C2=A0proposed in these drafts?<= u>

    <RG00> Ye= s, this can be Yang model. We can review draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang=C2=A0and add any missing items in a separate draft.<= span style=3D"color:rgb(0,112,192)"> We can also add a reference in this draft.

    G= IM>> Management of a protocol, configuration is an integral part of t= he protocol specification. I've expected that *-stamp-srpm drafts inclu= de more substantial text about the management than "out of the scope&q= uot;. In my opinion, a section on the management is required and if the aut= hors decide to augment STAMP Yang data model, it should include the new YAN= G module.

    <= /p>

    • In Section 4.1 noted that

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0The probe messages defined in [RFC8762]= are used for delay
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0measurement for Links and end-to-end SR Paths including SR Pol= icies.
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0For loss measurement, the probe messages defined in [I-D.gandh= i-ippm-
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0stamp-srpm] are used.

    It necessary to point that RFC 8762 support packet d= elay and packet loss measurements in the same test session using test packe= ts defined in the STAMP base specification. I believe that the need yet for= another method to perform the loss measurement is not sufficiently demonstrated and does appear as duplicatio= n of functionality already available in STAMP.

    =C2=A0

    <RG> This= is explained in the third paragraph of Section 1.

    GIM>> I cannot find any technical e= xplanation for the introduction of the new PM protocol to collect in-profil= e counters and not use the Direct Measurement TLV defined in draft-ietf= -ippm-stamp-option-tlv (already cleared IESG review). Could you help me= by pointing to the explanatory=C2=A0test in the paragraph you're refer= ring to:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document specifies procedures for send= ing and processing probe
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0query and response messages for Pe= rformance Measurement in SR
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0networks.=C2=A0 The procedure u= ses the mechanisms defined in [RFC8762]
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0(STAMP) and its TLV= extensions [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv] for
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0Performanc= e Measurement.=C2=A0 The procedure specified is applicable to
    =C2=A0 =C2= =A0SR-MPLS and SRv6 data planes and is used for both Links and end-to-
    = =C2=A0 =C2=A0end SR Paths including SR Policies and Flex-Algo IGP Paths.=C2= =A0 Unless
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0otherwise specified, the mechanisms defined in [= RFC8762] and
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0[I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv] are not modif= ied by this document.

    • Could you expand on the reasoning why in Section 4.1.1.1 stated that=

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0A separate user-configured
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0destination UDP port is used for the delay measurement in
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0authentication mode due to the different probe message format.=

    I cannot find similar requirement in RFC 8762 and wo= uld appreciate a technical explanation of the choice made in this specifica= tion.

    =C2=A0

    <RG> Does= RFC 8762 support simultaneous sessions for authenticated and non-authentic= ated modes? If yes, can you please point to the procedure in the RFC 8762 a= nd we can simply refer to it? I am not sure=C2=A0 how both packet formats be distinguished by a reflector node when using the sa= me UDP port.

    GIM&= gt;> Whether STAMP test session is in authenticated or unauthenticated m= ode is the matter of configuration (as it is for TWAMP). You can check the = ST= AMP YANG data model draft=C2=A0and TWAMP YANG data model=C2=A0(the la= tter could be useful for *-twamp-srpm drafts).
    As for distinguish= ed of two concurrent sessions between a pair of nodes, in STAMP one can tak= e advantage of the STAMP Session Identifier (SSID) that is defined in Secti= on 3 of draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv. If there is only one session, the= n, in my view, the configuration of the STAMP session's mode should suf= fice. Would you agree?
    =

    =

    • Section 4.2.1 refers to Sender Control Code (though it is defined in=C2=A0d= raft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. Could you explain why it is important to infor= m the Session-Reflector that the reflected test packet be sent out-of-band?= What if only in-band return path is available? Would the Session-Reflector discard test packets in such situat= ion?

    <RG00> Ou= t-of-band is the current behaviour and there is no change in the existing b= ehaviour. We can clarify in the next revision.

    =
    GIM>> I'm confused. An active measu= rement protocol cannot be out-of-band, otherwise, the measured metrics are = meaningless. Thus, an implementation of STAMP must ensure that the test pac= ket is in-band with the monitored flow. So, when you're saying "th= ere is no change in the existing behavior" are you referring to the be= havior of STAMP or to something else? If your intention to use the new prot= ocol out-of-band, that clearly will be a change of STAMP behavior.

    • I got confused by the following in Section 4.2.2

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0In two-way measurement mode, when using= a bidirectional path, the
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0probe response message as defined in Figure 6 is sent back to = the
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0sender node on the congruent path of the data traffic on the s= ame
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0reverse direction Link or associated reverse SR Policy
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0[I-D.ietf-pce-sr-bidir-path].

    If a Path Segment SID associated with the test sessi= on, there seems no need to require the Session-Reflector look for in-band p= ath. Would you agree?

    =C2=A0

    <RG> No. = Existence of Path Segment ID does not mean in-band reply. It may be needed = for RX counter for direct-mode loss measurement.

    GIM>> Can you please clarify the use = case for using the Path Segment SID in the test packet? The text, as quoted= , gives the impression that it is needed for "the probe response messa= ge as defined in Figure 6 is sent back to the sender node on the congruent = path of the data traffic on the same reverse direction Link or associated r= everse SR Policy." I cannot find any text that explains how the Segmen= t Path SID in the test packet may be used by "RX counter for direct-mo= de loss measurement".

    =C2=A0

    <RG> The IPv6 address ::1/128 is mentioned in the draft =
at couple of places. We can update the above text.

      

    • 
Section 4.3.3 states that a zero-value UDP checksum may be used in some sce=
narios. RFC 8085 allows that but in very specific cases that are documented=
 in detail in Section 3.4.1. Do you believe that the case of this protocol =
checks all the requirements for
 allowing the use of Zero UDP checksum as specified in RFC 8085? Also, I be=
lieve that allowing the use of Zero UDP checksum in some scenarios, this pr=
otocol introduces a security threat that must be thoroughly analyzed in the=
 Security Considerations section.

    

    <RG00> Th=
is is described in RFC 6936. It will be very specific to the UDP port provi=
sioned for STAMP. We will add reference to RFC 6936 in Security Section.
    =
    GIM>> What could be the detection interval=C2=A0when using STAMP= ? How that is compared with BFD?

    draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    • Introduction states that

    =C2=A0 The STAMP message with a TLV for "direct= measurement" can be used for
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0combined Delay + Loss measurement [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-= tlv].

    In fact, that is not accurate. RFC 8762 which provid= es the base specification of the STAMP protocol already supports packet del= ay and packet loss (a.k.a. synthetic packet loss) measurement.

    <RG> Ok, we can update the text = to indicate synthetic loss.

    • Further, the draft concludes that

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0However, in order to use only for loss = measurement purpose, it
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0requires the node to support the delay measurement messages an= d
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0support timestamp for these messages (which may also require c= lock
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0synchronization).

    I disagree that the the clock synchronization is req= uired for STAMP. It is recommended for one-way delay measurement but even w= ithout the clock synchronization STAMP supports the round-trip delay measur= ement and one-way delay variation can be calculated.

    <RG> We can update text to : (which requires clock synchronization for one-way delay measurement).

    <RG00> As= mentioned earlier, I am not sure extending ICMP to do PM = is a good option here.

    =C2=A0

    Thanks,<= u>

    Rakesh

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    Regards,

    Greg

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 5:52 AM James Guichard <<= a href=3D"mailto:james.n.guichard@futurewei.com" target=3D"_blank">james.n.= guichard@futurewei.com> wrote:

    Dear WG:

    =C2=A0

    This message starts a 3 week WG= adoption call for https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr= aft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03, ending Nov= ember 12th 2020. Please note that this document has several changes from v-02 that were requested by th= e SPRING and IPPM chairs. For this reason, the chairs have extended the ado= ption call for an additional week to allow the WG enough time to review the= se changes before deciding on WG adoption.

    =C2=A0

    Some background: =C2=A0<= u>

    =C2=A0

    Several review comments were re= ceived previously for document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr= aft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-02. The SPRING and IPPM chairs considered those comments, and upon revie= w of this version of the document, determined the following:

    =C2=A0

    • The SPRING document should describe only the procedures relevant to SPRING = with pointers to non-SPRING document/s that define any extensions. Several = extensions including Control Code Field Extension for STAMP Messages,=C2=A0Loss Mea= surement Query Message Extensions,=C2=A0Loss Measurement Response Me= ssage Extensions,=C2=A0Node Address TLV Extensions, and=C2=A0Return Path TLV Extensions were inc= luded in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-= srpm-02 and should be removed from the SPRI= NG document.
    • The STAMP extensions included in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-= srpm-02 should be described in a new document published in the I= PPM WG. =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    These conclusions were discussed with the authors of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-= srpm-02 the result of which is the publicat= ion of the following two documents:

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    After review of the SPRING document please indicate = support (or not) for WG adoption to the mailing list. Please also provide comments/reasons for that support = (or lack thereof) as silence will not be considered as consent.

    Finally, the chairs would like = to thank the authors for their efforts in this matter.=

    Thanks!

    Jim, Bruno, & Joel

    _______________________________________________
    spring mailing list
    spring@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

    =C2=A0

    --000000000000a21bee05b42e2a49-- From nobody Sun Nov 15 16:08:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 985653A0978; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 16:07:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vgcI-w876s4b; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 16:07:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x230.google.com (mail-lj1-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8339E3A05DF; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 16:07:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x230.google.com with SMTP id 142so4554023ljj.10; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 16:07:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=R5IgubYNIESfcWKHAbViuE+NkYUfblOqqRMqrtpf2xE=; b=GUDqjp7Y9FI7JuSJ7LbUg3jOCaLS5STZC5RMciRGQYz53WvNuIx8uogcigJ4uQG3Yu X5jRrvcXYWVjnZyY2rd07vKGMpaY/D6qmP4qDvk0K4StSBchVlkdX67PiNrCcsWfJLc3 i9H6LGfIwT+4lLzVRLrerMkHmujKOg88b+LZ8Rq0l9DGK2G52+RB/2Z0N2Hz/fjT7aFn lYcKjEE9UE2b96Azrri2veMSJK48t7eho7iy/XkrZCOqbSIPLTqalZTKoqeTgJ6MbTxl BL72CjromguGoHLp+dVtRl98ri+/HrzC2N4AY+xgAr8QsLJIWbMPrynl7cnaV2LzJ1in jIRQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=R5IgubYNIESfcWKHAbViuE+NkYUfblOqqRMqrtpf2xE=; b=jWWqbY3WzTe7eHonsHg0sICNoVYC6d8Ei6Ub1tZsAD1K5tOTYDZkvXXCCS9nt6dsy3 E9zt/bu3tmvY8UEVBYimBcxmjQeLZ9v6qJkfoT82SpMZ7iWRHh046LHMhbvurrtT704Q JNdrEG8sAMyRRzKGRDwpTVBC0hpAwiFN3z5ilWqp+051GPrsZaU2uibzSWLAtaNd0ROJ YV5q7bOV2KNkvkbSPfqYIRYV9oTCo67p3cjngANXmdvKExRsWoE3u8boUaRlQpdDnevp D/d6OWW3ZRppKoy1bOSeiOtJkEBykdXivecbEoQiGRBhyB+p46dpbYIUx4CpUt0ccxW0 72WQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530rnxefzveH5aTUmADRnWTfRFThy/OmheqZjWMD4SRYwDzVls9z WZrkzgYL5oD8HK3FV5jDvyMdcUi53gUXQ2SQ8jY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwlMS2HqqAcWZvC/b9heAeoyVdYBLggvIFfMER7VN9XVBNbruFVtxWA/NJalRgBxg9AIlKuuFyLuC2DUaQUNH8= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:5450:: with SMTP id y16mr5371102ljd.288.1605485263533; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 16:07:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 16:07:32 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi)" Cc: James Guichard , "spring@ietf.org" , "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d33cc305b42e2a1b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] WG Adoption Call for https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 00:07:57 -0000 --000000000000d33cc305b42e2a1b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Rakesh, thank you for the response to my comments. Please find my follow-up notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag. Regards, Greg On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 7:33 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) wrote: > Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and > providing the comments. > > Please see replies inline with =E2=80=A6 > > > > *From: *ippm > *Date: *Friday, November 6, 2020 at 11:18 AM > *To: *James Guichard > *Cc: *spring@ietf.org , ippm-chairs@ietf.org < > ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org , > IETF IPPM WG > *Subject: *Re: [ippm] [spring] WG Adoption Call for > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 > > Dear Chairs of the SPRING and IPPM WGs, Authors, et al., > > I've found myself in the situation when two related drafts are in the WG > APs in the SPRING and IPPM WG (with the possibility that expertise from t= he > third WG, BFD WG, might be desirable to review the "liveness monitoring")= . > Because these drafts are closely related, I've decided to combine my > questions and comments in a single thread. I hope that would be acceptabl= e > and considered by the SPRING WG as well as IPPM WG. > > Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluated by > answers to these three questions: > > - Is the document(s) reasonably well-written > > I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology from RFC 465= 6 > and 5357 and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender and > Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", are > used in the documents without proper definitions. Other than that both > drafts are readable and reasonably well-written. > > > > We are ok to change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to > Session-Reflector if it helps. > GIM>> I believe that the consistency in terminology between the core RFC and what is intended as its extension is not only helpful to a reader but, to the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications. But I don't think that switching the terminology will fix the fundamental issue with the proposal. The operation that is required from the remote entity, whether it is referred to as responder or Session-Reflector, is not defined in Appendix I of RFC 5357, nor in RFCs 4656 or 5357 itself. In my opinion, the behavior required, as described in the draft, cannot be characterized as an extension of OWAMP, TWAMP, or TWAMP Light but presents a completely new protocol that, if there's a need in the new PM OAM protocol, must be properly defined. > There are many existing RFCs that use term =E2=80=9CLink=E2=80=9D (e= .g. RFC 5613, > 5340, 8330, etc.) and term =E2=80=9CCongruent Path=E2=80=9D (e.g. RFC 592= 1, 6669) without > defining them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having > said that, we can add a reference for them if it helps. > GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. I think I need to clarify my questions. While a reference to any of RFCs you've mentioned, I don't think that will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitalized while referenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can these be used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object? Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using the term "congruent path" in these drafts (using ASCII-art): C---------D / \ A----B E-----F \ / G------------H Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the network as A-B-C-D-E-F. Is A-B-G-H-E-F congruent to it? From the definition of "congruent" as "two figures or objects are congruent if they have the same shape and size, or if one has the same shape and size as the mirror image of the other", it looks as the path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to that SR tunnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to monitor a flow over the SR tunnel is out-of-band relative to that flow and will not produce any meaningful measurement. Of course, for the case of the extensions in drafts *-twamp-srpm, direct loss measurement can be performed, as information collected from node F and packets that collect the counters are not required to be in-band with the monitored flow. So, this example, in my opinion, illustrates two of my concerns: - using a congruent path for active performance measurement, e.g., TWAMP or TWAMP Light, may produce information that does not reflect the condit= ion experienced by the monitored flow. It seems that the terminology should reflect the fundamental requirement of ensuring that active OAM test packets are in-band with the monitored flow. - there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band test packets for direct packet loss measurement. In fact, using the in-band method for collecting in-profile counters leads to a waste of bandwidth, which may have a negative impact on services that require low-latency and/or low packet loss. As demonstrated in this example, direct packet l= oss can be performed using an out-of-band mechanism, e.g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG data model. > > - Does the document solve a real problem? > > No, it appears that these drafts define a new performance measurement > protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP and TWAMP functionality and > adding the ability to collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn'= t > find sufficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, f= or > example, extending the existing OAM mechanisms like ICMP. > > > > There is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as > synthetic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP > and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthet= ic > packet loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a > good option here. > GIM>> I agree with the requirements you've listed (though the SPRING WG OAM requirements document has been abandoned and expired 3+ years ago). I believe that there's no sufficient technical reason to use OWAMP/TWAMP for exclusive direct packet loss measurement. > > - Is the proposed solution technically viable? > > There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced > by the protocol on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the > proposed solution. > > About your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security > section in RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security > Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisione= d > in the domain by the operator for TWAMP. Other than this, I did not find > any other security related issue in your review below. > GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference sufficiently explains why the use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, does not create a security risk for the protocol. > To summarize my review of these two drafts: > > - these propose a new protocol, not an update or enhancement of the > TWAMP-like protocol; > > The probe and response messages defined in [RFC 5357] are used for > delay measurement and synthetic packet loss. The direct-mode packet loss > messages are defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm > that > match these delay measurement messages. As stated, > draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm > defines > =E2=80=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D for TWAMP Light. > GIM>> I cannot find where RFC 5357 defines "the probe and response messages". Could you give a more specific reference or provide the text that, in your opinion, defines such messages? But I'm more concerned with the direction of "extending" non-protocol referred to as "TWAMP Light". As a contributor to BBF's TR-390, I'm have learned how different are existing implementations of TWAMP Light. And that is also noted in EANTC Multi-Vendor Interoperability 2019 white paper . The status of TWAMP Light is explained in RFC 8545 and I cannot see that it can be used as a foundation of any standard. > > - several parts of the proposed protocol, e.g., Zero UDP checksum in > IPv6, require detailed security analysis, which is currently absent; > > This is specified in RFC 6936 Security Section. We will add referenc= e > to this RFC in our Security Section as well. This is only specific to the > UDP port locally provisioned in the domain by the operator for TWAMP. > GIM>> I've noted above that a simple reference does not sufficiently explains why the use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, does not create a security risk for the protocol. I believe that the proposal to use zero UDP header checksum requires extensive analysis, using the analysis provided in RFC 6936. > > - I was surprised to find out that draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm is on > the Informational track even though it is essential to the new protoco= l as > it defines its key elements > > This was to address your previous comment quoted as: > > =E2=80=9C- as I understand, the draft is applicable to TWAMP Light mode, > > mentioned in the informational Appendix I in RFC 5357, not the TWAMP > > protocol itself. Since TWAMP Light is not a standard but its idea is > > described in the informational text only, I think that the Information= al > > track is more appropriate for this specification.=E2=80=9D > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/bGTsJmJ5-eC3B-mfDCXAFiCAC3o/ > > Having said that, we are ok to change to PS. > GIM>> As explained in RFC 8545 "TWAMP Light is an idea", not a protocol. If anyone is interested in standardizing an "extension", I'd expect that they first define the base specification to which the extension applies. I might have missed the definition of TWAMP Light protocol in the draft. Could you point to the definition, for example, of the Authenticated mode in TWAMP Light in the draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm or RFC 5357? > > - I believe that draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm should be anchored at > IPPM WG as it does introduce the new PM protocol. > > The TWAMP Light extension draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm > is > already in IPPM WG. The SPRING draft only defines SR PM procedures. > > > > Below, please find my detailed comments, questions on these drafts: > > - draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm > > I have several questions about the relationships between this draft and > Appendix I in RFC 5357 where the idea of a mode known as TWAMP Light has > been mentioned. The nature of the TWAMP Light and what is required to mak= e > it a standard is well-explained in Section 4 of RFC 8545 > (apologies for the long > quote): > > "TWAMP Light" is an idea described in Appendix I ("TWAMP Light > (Informative)") of [RFC5357]; TWAMP Light includes an unspecified > control protocol combined with the TWAMP-Test protocol. In > [RFC5357], the TWAMP Light idea was relegated to Appendix I because > TWAMP Light failed to meet the requirements for IETF protocols (there > are no specifications for negotiating this form of operation and no > specifications for mandatory-to-implement security features), as > described in Appendix A of this memo. See also [LarsAD] and > [TimDISCUSS]. > > Since the idea of TWAMP Light clearly includes the TWAMP-Test > component of TWAMP, it is considered reasonable for future systems to > use the TWAMP-Test well-known UDP port (whose reallocated assignment > is specified in this document). Clearly, the TWAMP Light idea > envisions many components and communication capabilities beyond > TWAMP-Test (implementing the security requirements, for example); > otherwise, Appendix I of [RFC5357] would be one sentence long > (equating TWAMP Light with TWAMP-Test only). > > > > Since we don't have an IETF document that addressed these open questions, > I don't think we can have a draft that proposes extensions to a > non-standard mechanism (Appendix is for Informational material, as I > understand it) on the Standard track. > > > > This was to address your previous comment quoted as > > =E2=80=9C- as I understand, the draft is applicable to TWAMP Light mode, > > mentioned in the informational Appendix I in RFC 5357, not the TWAMP > > protocol itself. Since TWAMP Light is not a standard but its idea is > > described in the informational text only, I think that the Information= al > > track is more appropriate for this specification.=E2=80=9D > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/bGTsJmJ5-eC3B-mfDCXAFiCAC3o/ > > Having said that, we are ok to change to PS as you mentioned above. > > BTW, despite only difference of fixed vs. variable length payload in > STAMP vs. TWAMP Light, the STAMP is a proposed standard as RFC 8762 (and = it > uses the same approach of provisioning as defined in this draft). Hence, > security considerations for STAMP and TWAMP Light are not different. Note > that both STAMP and TWAMP Light have authenticated messages defined for > Security purpose. > GIM>> RFC 5357 mentioned TWAMP Light as an unauthenticated, and thus the light, simpler, version of TWAMP-Test component of TWAMP protocol. I cannot find in draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm definition of the Authenticated mode of TWAMP Light. Also, I'll prefer not to refer to RFC 8762 STAMP in the discussion of "extension" to TWAMP Light. Now a number of more specific questions. > > draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm: > > - In the Introduction it is stated that: > > The TWAMP Light [Appendix I in RFC5357] [BBF.TR-390] provides > simplified mechanisms for active performance measurement in Customer > IP networks by provisioning UDP paths and eliminates the need for > control-channel signaling. > > I can not find where, either Appendix I or TR-390, "eliminated the need > for control-channel signaling". Also, could you point where the reference= d > documents describe "provisioning UDP paths"? > > > > The Appendix I of RFC 5357 has following text. We can reword and mat= ch the exact text if you prefer. > > > > =E2=80=9CThis example eliminates the need for the TWAMP-Control protocol,= and > > assumes that the Session-Reflector is configured=E2=80=9D > > GIM>> I think that the text you're proposing is even more confusing. It i= s not clear which example the sentence is referring to. Also, what is the basis for such an assumption? > > - It appears that the last paragraph in the Introduction describes the > relationship with Appendix I of RFC 5357: > > The procedure uses the mechanisms defined in [RFC5357] > (TWAMP Light) and its extensions for Performance Measurement. > > I think that the reference must be to Appendix I, not RFC 5357. Also, > could you please specify which extensions of TWAMP Light have been used i= n > this draft? > > We can add the Appendix I as reference in the next revision. > Extensions are defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm, we can add this > reference. > GIM>> The problem, in my view, is that Appendix I of RFC 5357 must be a normative reference while it is, by its nature, an Informational document. > > - In Section 2.3 describing the reference model is noted: > > The probe response message is typically sent to the sender node R1. > > In which scenarios the reflector acts differently? How such behavior is > related to the behavior of a TWAMP Session-Reflector, as defined in RFC > 5357? > > Do you prefer we remove =E2=80=9Ctypically=E2=80=9D from the sentenc= e? > GIM>> If that fits into the operational model of the new protocol you're defining. > > - Also in Section 2.3 a Link is mentioned as an element directly > connecting nodes in the presented reference model. Could you clarify w= hat > is a Link? Is it always a physical connection between two systems or a > virtual? > > Both, please see Section 4.1.3. =E2=80=9CLink=E2=80=9D is well known= term used in > many existing RFCs (please see RFC 5613, 5340, 8330). > GIM>> Thank you for the references. I couldn't find a definition of an object "Link" (capitalized) but only "link" (lower case). Hence, since the draft consistently uses the capitalized form, I consider it to be something else, something different from a link. > > - In Section 3 behavior of the reflector described as > > ... no PM state for delay or loss measurement need to be created on th= e > reflector node R5. > > That is in contradiction to the behavior of a TWAMP Session-Reflector as > defined in RFC 5357. Could you provide a reference to an IETF standard > where this behavior is defined? Also, how, without creating a state at th= e > Session-Reflector, to achieve one-way delay and synthetic loss measuremen= t > on a bidirectional SR tunnel? > > > > Quoting the text from Appendix I in RFC 5357. We can quote the text > as is. > > =E2=80=9CIn the case of TWAMP Light, the Session-Reflector does not neces= sarily have knowledge of the session state. =E2=80=9C > > GIM>> By the informational nature of Appendix I, the text is not normative. I am familiar with the implementation of TWAMP Light which does maintain the session state and thus supports one-way packet loss measurement. If you require that the remote node does not maintain the state, the draft must define that as part of the specifying the behavior of the protocol. > > > - Further, in Section 3 the selection of UDP port explained as the > following: > > As specified in [RFC8545], the reflector > supports the destination UDP port 862 for delay measurement probe > messages by default. This UDP port however, is not used for loss > measurement probe messages. > > To the best of my understanding, as one of the contributors and Editors o= f > RFC 8545, it re-allocated UDP port 862 for use by a TWAMP Session-Reflect= or > without excluding any type of measurement. Besides, in TWAMP delay and > packet loss are measured in the same test session, using the same flow of > TWAMP-Test packets. > > > > The packet loss in existing RFC 5357 refers to synthetic loss as > there is no support for direct-mode loss in RFC 5357. We can change the > text to clarify as =E2=80=9CThis UDP port however, is not used for direct= -mode > loss measurement probe messages.=E2=80=9D > GIM>> I've found that there's some misconception in the draft. RFC 8545 re-assigned UDP port 862 not for "delay measurement probe messages" but for TWAMP-Test protocol. TWAMP-Test protocol, in turn, supports packet delay, packet loss, reordering (RFC 4737 defines packet reordering metric), and packet duplication measurement. > > - Then the draft states that > > The sender uses the UDP port number following the guidelines specified in > Section 6 in [RFC6335]. > > Could you point to the guidelines that a user can use when selecting a UD= P > port number of a test session? > > > > Please see section 6 in [RFC6335]. We can cite the range which will > be the same as used in [RFC8762]. This was also discussed earlier. > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/ONYYhG9Y8sbiNO15bxWIRM9ymEE/ > GIM>> I've looked through Section 6 but I don't find anything specifically applicable to this draft we're discussing. If the protocol to use UDP port numbers from the Dynamic ports range, a.k.a., Private or Ephemeral, then it seems that stating that explicitly would be the best way. > > > - At the closing of the paragraph, we read that > > The number of UDP ports with PM functionality needs to be minimized due > to limited hardware resources. > > Does a UDP port number pose PM functionality? How it is assigned to the > port number? > > UDP ports are user configured for delay and direct-mode loss PM as > described in Section 3.1. > GIM>> Can UDP port 862 be used? Also, requiring that the direct-loss measurement uses port number different from the one used by a TWAMP-Test packet, in my opinion, is another indication that this is the definition of a different from TWAMP Light PM OAM protocol. > > - Following the above-quoted text, in Section 3 is noted: > > For Performance Measurement, probe query and response messages are > sent as following: > > Could you clarify if the listed further procedures deviate from > OWAMP/TWAMP or follow procedures defined in RFC 4656 and RFC 5357 for > Session-Sender and Session-Reflector respectively? > > Probe messages follow the same procedure as defined in RFC 4656 and > RFC 5357. > GIM>> All messages, i.e., TWAMP-Test packets as well as the defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm? > > - for both delay and loss measurements draft requires test packet be > transmitted on a congruent path: > > the probe messages are sent on the > congruent path of the data traffic by the sender node > > It is not clear what "the congruent path" means. The definition > of congruency in geometry tells us that an object B is congruent to objec= t > A if it has the same shape and size, but is allowed to flip, slide or tur= n. > How a path can be congruent to another path? > > There are many existing RFCs that use term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC > 5921, 6669) without defining them. I suspect it is because it is well-kno= wn > term. Having said that, we can add a reference for it if it helps reader. > GIM>> I cannot assume what was the context of these RFCs. I've sketched a network diagram above to illustrate that a "congruent path" may well lead to out-of-band path. Is that the intention of the authors of the draft to use this protocol out-of-band? > > - The last paragraph in Section 3 refers to work on iOAM: > > The In-Situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (IOAM) > mechanisms for SR-MPLS defined in [I-D.gandhi-mpls-ioam-sr] and for > SRv6 defined in [I-D.ali-spring-ioam-srv6] are used to carry PM > information such as timestamp in-band as part of the data packets, > and are outside the scope of this document. > > Is iOAM in the scope of this specification? What are the relationships > between iOAM and draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm? > > As mentioned in the draft, IOAM is outside the scope. > GIM>> Yes, but it appears that references to the two IOAM-related drafts have some purpose. What is it? How are these drafts related to draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm? > > - Section 3.1 presents an example of the provisioning model but puts > the definition of the provisioning model outside the scope. Is there a= n > accompanying specification that defines the provisioning model that ca= n be > used in multi-vendor deployment? Could that be YANG data model? What i= s the > relationship with draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang > ? Would the > TWAMP YANG data model be augmented? > > Yes, this can be Yang model. We can review draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yan= g > and add any > missing items in a separate draft. We can also add a reference in this > draft. > GIM>> I think that theremust be some discussion on how the new protocol is configured. If TWAMP YANG data model can be augmented, I'd expect that being defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm. But I couldn't find anything about the configuration of the protocol. > > - Section 4.1 states that a new message is introduced to perform the > Loss Measurement in this protocol Why the capability of TWAMP to measu= re > the loss in one-way and two-way is not sufficient? > > Existing TWAMP messages do not support =E2=80=9Cdirect-mode=E2=80=9D= loss > measurement. We can add =E2=80=9Cdirect-mode=E2=80=9D in the text to clar= ify. > GIM>> True, direct loss measurement, in fact, is not active measurement and thus is outside the scope of Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP). The direct-loss measurement is, by the definition of RFC 7799, passive measurement method and fetching counters can be done using numerous methods, e.g., SNMP, Netconf. > > - Section 4.1.1 requires that > > The Destination UDP port cannot be used as Source port, since > the message does not have any indication to distinguish between the > query and response message. > > Does that imply that the Destination UDP port used for the Delay > measurement is unique throughout the particular domain? > > This is user-defined and is up to the user what UDP port to provisio= n > in a domain. > GIM>> So, can user configure a port number from the User Ports range? Or, can the same port number be used on the same system for a number of test sessions? I find the use of UDP port numbers being underspecified. > > - Section 4.1.2 of RFC 5357 does not define "the delay measurement > message" but refers to the definition of the Session-Sender's test pac= ket > in RFC 4656 OWAMP. Note, that OWAMP and TWAMP are using a single test > packet format to perform both delay and packet loss measurement. > > Ok, we can update the text in the next revision to indicate exact > name from the RFC 4656. We can also add text to include synthetic packet > loss. > GIM>> I think that making it explicit would help. Also, that will highlight what is being introduced by *twamp-srpm drafts is, in fact, a new protocol to perform synthetic packet loss measurement. > > - Can you explain how "the DM probe query message contains the payload > format defined in Section 4.2.1 of [RFC5357]" when the referenced sect= ion > of RFC 5357 defines the format of a Session-Reflector's test packet? > > We can update the text in the next revision to indicate query format > name from RFC 5357. > GIM>> I cannot find any reference to a query format in RFCs 4656/5357. Could you please quote from any of these documents? > > - Can clarify the applicability of RFC 6038 and the symmetrical packet > size? Is it required? Can it be non-symmetrical? > > Yes. Please see section 4.1.1 and quoted below: > > =E2=80=9CFor symmetrical size query and response messages as defined in [= RFC6038],=E2=80=9D > > GIM>> RFC 6038 defines an extension to RFC 5357 for OPTIONAL use of the symmetrical test packets. Since *-twamp-srpm proposals do not use TWAMP-Control protocol and Appendix I in RFC 5357 tells us nothing about that either (in part because RFC 6038 came later), I don't see that there's any certainty in what is the sze of a test packet used in the direct-loss measurement. > > - Can you clarify the use of the timestamp format, NTP or PTPv2? It is > not clear which is the default, mandatory or optional. > > This is same as TWAMP. There is no change. > GIM>> Per RFC 5357, TWAMP uses only NTP format. Is that the case for *-twamp-srpm? > > - Also, is "hardware support in Segment Routing networks" of the PTPv2 > format required, guaranteed, or something else? > > Hardware timestamps are recommended for SR use-cases. We can change > the sentence. > GIM>> Perhaps you can propose some text, that would be helpful. > > - Section 4.1.1.1 stated that > > A separate user-configured > destination UDP port is used for the delay measurement in > authentication mode due to the different probe message format. > > Can that be interpreted that there could be concurrent authenticated and > unauthenticated test sessions using this protocol? Would different > authentication methods require using unique destination UDP port numbers? > > > > Yes, and Yes, and these are based on provisioning. > GIM>> But that requirement is far outside the TWAMP, as defined in RFC 5357= . > > - Section 4.1.2 by introducing the dedicated Loss measurement packet > format, effectively modifies the behavior defined in RFC 5357 for > Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. But the document does not state = that. > Can you clarify whether this specification changes the behavior of a > Session-Sender and Session-Reflector as defined in RFC 4656 and RFC 53= 57 > respectively for the support of packet loss measurement? > > The direct-mode loss defines new procedure for sender/reflector to > collect traffic counters, as opposed to timestamp. The rest is the same a= s > RFC 4656 and 5357. > GIM>> I cannot agree with your statement " The rest is the same as RFC 4656 and 5357" because the sender's direct-loss format does not have Error Estimate field, Thus, a reflected packet does not have Sender's Error Estimate, nor Error Estimate of the reflector. And that, in my opinion, is another clear indication that *twamp-srpm drafts define a new protocol, separate from OWAMP/TWAMP. > > - And a similar question about the use of the separate UDP port number > for the authenticated of the packet loss measurement. > - A couple of question to the following text in Section 4.1.3: > > The local and remote IP > addresses of the link are used as Source and Destination Addresses. > They can also be IPv6 link local address as probe messages are pre- > routed. > > - What are the addresses of a link? > > I am assuming this well-known (e.g. RFC 2328). > GIM>> I am not familiar with the term "pre-routed". What does it mean? > > - In which scenarios an IPv6 LLA can be used? > > I am assuming this is well-known (e.g. RFC 5613). > GIM>> So, LLA may be used as the source and destination addresses when testing an SR tunnel? > > - Also, could the use of a routable destination IP address be used as > a DDOS attack vector? Consider the scenario when an attacker genera= tes > SR-encapsulated packets with the destination IP address other than = any of > the SR-terminating nodes. Such a packet will be routed, correct? Th= at does > appear as a security threat, would you agree? > > Absolutely do not agree. It is no different than IP routed TWAMP > packet as defined in [RFC5357]. > GIM>> You don't agree that the processing described cannot happen because of laws of physics or it wouldn't happen because no one will think of that? If the latter, I think that that is security threat. > > - Section 4.1.4.2 references Figure 5 that, as I understand it, > displays the format of a probe query message. In figure two references= to > RFC 5357 are provided - a section that references RFC 4656 OWAMP defin= ition > of the Session-Sender test packet, and a section that defines the > Session-Reflector's reflected packet. Which of the two is used for the > delay measurement in the proposed protocol? > > The probe query packet in the Session-Sender text packet. We can > update the name. > > - Section 4.2.1 states that > > In one-way measurement mode, the probe response message as defined in > Figure 6 is sent back out-of-band to the sender node ... > > Could you clarify how the responder controls that the response packet is > sent not in-band but out-of-band? > > > > Please refer to section 3.1 in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm. This i= s > existing behaviour for out-of-band. > GIM>> draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm does not specify that it defines another new protocol OWAMP Light. And it is not clear what you reference as "this is existing behavior". Is it to reference behavior of TWAMP test packet? But the behavior of the TWAMP-Test protocol by itself is neither in-band, nor out-of-band. It is the encapsulation of the TWAMP test packet that makes it either in-band or out-of-band. > > - How's the method described in Section 4.2.3 is different from the > method described in RFC 8403 ? > What is distinctly unique about the loopback mode proposed in the sect= ion? > > There is no mention of Loopback mode or TWAMP / RFC 5357 in RFC 8403= . > GIM>> So, you believe that proposing to use the method described in RFC 8403 for the TWAMP packet is innovation? And what are the benefits of using the TWAMP test packet format in the Loopback mode? > > - What is the rationale for setting TTL/Hop Limit fields always to 255 > for IPv4, MPLS, and IPv6 (per Section 4.3.1)? > > This is as defined in Section 4.2 of RFC 5357 (Bullet 4). > GIM>> I believe you've misunderstood the text in RFC 5357. This bullet specifies the behavior of a Session-Reflector. It is to try to read TTL value of the received TWAMP test packet and copy the value in Sender TTL field of the reflected packet. If the Session-Reflector cannot access the TTL field, it MUST write 255 in the Sender TTL field. So, I think that my questions still remains. > > - Section 4.3.3 states that a zero-value UDP checksum may be used in > some scenarios. RFC 8085 allows that but in very specific cases that a= re > documented in detail in Section 3.4.1. Do you believe that the case of= this > protocol checks all the requirements for allowing the use of Zero UDP > checksum as specified in RFC 8085? Also, I believe that allowing the u= se of > Zero UDP checksum in some scenarios, this protocol introduces a securi= ty > threat that must be thoroughly analyzed in the Security Considerations > section. > > This is described in RFC 6936. It will be very specific to the UDP > port provisioned for TWAMP. We will add reference to RFC 6936 in Security > Section. > GIM>> I don't think that the reference is sufficient for the Securit Consideration. I'd expect some extended discussion on why using zero UDP header checksum is not a security threat for *twamp-srpm protocol= . > > - Section 8 refers to "liveness monitoring of Links and SR Paths". > This appears as the replication of functionality provided by BFD/S-BFD > protocols. Is such comparison accurate? If it is, shouldn't the propos= al be > also reviewed by the BFD WG? > > TWAMP probe messages are used today for synthetic packet loss which > can also be used to detect connection loss (performance metric). The > section simply highlights this obvious metric. > GIM>> Can you point to a document that has defined "TWAMP probe messages are used today for synthetic packet loss"? Also, which document defines loss of connectivity as a performance metric? Does *twamp-srpm proposes to use the new protocol to detect the loss of path continuity? > > - I found the Security Section of the proposed protocol inadequately > terse and missing very important threats that this protocol introduces= in > the network. > > Other than referring RFC 6936 for zero checksum what else is missing= ? > Otherwise it is no different than RFC 8762 (STAMP). > GIM>> I cannot see how RFC 8762 is relevant to *twamp-srpm drafts. The use of source IP addresses, as mentioned above, appears to be another security risk introduced by *-twamp-srpm drafts. > > - draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm > > As I understand it, the motivation for the Loss Measurement mode defined > in this specification is to collect "in-profile" counters. Is that correc= t? > Do you see as essential for this mode that the query messages are in-band > with the flow being profiled? In your opinion, how using an out-of-band > method of collecting these counters, e.g., by using ICMP multi-part messa= ge > extension per RFC 4884, could affect the accuracy comparing with the meth= od > in this protocol? How the impact changes if extended ICMP messages are > in-band with the profiled flow? > > > > As mentioned earlier, I am not sure extending ICMP to do PM is a > good option here. Both TWAMP and OWAMP are widely deployed today for dela= y > and synthetic loss measurement. > GIM>> What is the reason mentioning OWAMP? Are drafts *-twamp-srpm extend RFC 4656 OWAMP as well? Also, what you see as the connection between using active measurement methods to measure packet delay and packet loss, on one hand, and collecting packet counters? > > - Section 3.1 introduces the new field, Sender Control Code. The > format of the packet, as I understand it, is presented in Figure 1. Wh= en > comparing with the format of Session-Sender's test packet defined in R= FC > 4656 OWAMP in Section 4.1.2 I've noticed that there are no MBZ fields.= Are > these introduced by your proposal? > > It shows the partial message that has new field. We can update it to > show the full message to avoid such confusion. > > - Also, it appears that the Sequence Number field in TWAMP > Session-Sender's test packet is absent in Figure 1. Is that intentiona= l? > > It shows the partial message that has new field. We can update it to > show the full message to avoid such confusion. > > Thanks, > > Rakesh > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 5:51 AM James Guichard < > james.n.guichard@futurewei.com> wrote: > > Dear WG: > > > > This message starts a 3 week WG adoption call for document > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 ending > November 12th 2020. Please note that this document has several changes > from v-10 that were requested by the SPRING and IPPM chairs. For this > reason, the chairs have extended the adoption call for an additional week > to allow the WG enough time to review these changes before deciding on WG > adoption. > > > > Some background: > > > > Several review comments were received previously for document > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10. The SPRING > and IPPM chairs considered those comments, and upon review of this versio= n > of the document, determined the following: > > > > - The SPRING document should describe only the procedures relevant to > SPRING with pointers to non-SPRING document/s that define any extensio= ns. > Several extensions including* Control Code Field Extension for TWAMP > Light Messages*, *Loss Measurement Query Message Extensions*, and *Los= s > Measurement Response Message Extensions *were included in > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10 and > should be removed from the SPRING document. > - The TWAMP extensions included in > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10 should > be described in a new document published in the IPPM WG. > > > > These conclusions were discussed with the authors of > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10 the result > of which is the publication of the following two documents: > > > > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11. The > subject of this WG adoption call. > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00. This > document will be progressed (if determined by the WG) within the IPPM = WG. > > > > After review of the SPRING document please indicate support (or not) for > WG adoption to the mailing list. Please also provide comments/reasons for > that support (or lack thereof) as silence will not be considered as conse= nt. > > > > Finally, the chairs would like to thank the authors for their efforts in > this matter. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Jim, Bruno, & Joel > > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > --000000000000d33cc305b42e2a1b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Rakesh,
    thank you for the response= to my comments.=C2=A0Please find my follow-up notes in-lined below under t= he GIM>> tag.

    Regards,
    Greg
    <= /div>
    O= n Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 7:33 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com> wrote:

    Thank you Greg for taking time for tho= roughly reviewing the documents and providing the comments.

    Please see replies inline with <RG&= gt;=E2=80=A6

    =C2=A0

    From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org>= ;
    Date: Friday, November 6, 2020 at 11:18 AM
    To: James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>
    Cc: spring@ietf= .org <spring@ie= tf.org>, i= ppm-chairs@ietf.org <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, = IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ie= tf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] WG Adoption Call for h= ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11<= /u>

    Dear Chairs of the SPRING and IPPM WGs, Authors, et = al.,

    I've found myself in the situation when two rela= ted drafts are in the WG APs in the SPRING and IPPM WG (with the possibilit= y that expertise from the third WG, BFD WG, might be desirable to review th= e "liveness monitoring"). Because these drafts are closely related, I've decided to combine my questions and c= omments in a single thread. I hope that would be acceptable and considered = by the SPRING WG as well as IPPM WG.

    Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can = be evaluated=C2=A0by answers to these three questions:

    • Is the document(s) reasonably well-written

    I've got surprised that the drafts don't use= the terminology from RFC 4656 and 5357 and introduce their own terminology= for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, &= quot;congruent paths", are used in the documents without proper definitions. Other than that both drafts are readable and r= easonably well-written.

    =C2=A0

    <RG> We are ok to change Sender = to Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Reflector if it helps.

    GIM>> I believe that= the consistency in terminology between the core RFC and what is intended a= s its extension is not only helpful to a reader but, to the best of my unde= rstanding, is required for IETF specifications. But I don't think that = switching the terminology will fix the fundamental issue with the proposal.= The operation that is required from the remote entity, whether it is refer= red to as responder or Session-Reflector, is not defined in Appendix I of R= FC 5357, nor in RFCs 4656 or 5357 itself. In my opinion, the behavior requi= red, as described in the draft, cannot be characterized as an extension of = OWAMP, TWAMP, or TWAMP Light but presents a completely new protocol that, i= f there's a need in the new PM OAM protocol, must be properly defined.<= /div>

    <RG> There are many existing RFC= s that use term =E2=80=9CLink=E2=80=9D (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340, 8330, etc.) an= d term =E2=80=9CCongruent Path=E2=80=9D (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without defin= ing them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having said t= hat, we can add a reference for them if it helps.

    <= /div>
    GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. = I think I need to clarify my questions. While a reference to any of RFCs yo= u've mentioned, I don't think that will address my concern. In revi= ewed documents, "Link" is capitalized while referenced RFCs used = the lower case form for the term "link". Can these be used interc= hangeably? Do they refer to the same network object?
    Now I'll= try to illustrate my concern with using the term "congruent path"= ; in these drafts (using ASCII-art):
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0C---------D
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0\
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A----B=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0E-----F
    =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0\=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /
    =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0G-----= -------H
    Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the net= work as A-B-C-D-E-F. Is A-B-G-H-E-F congruent to it? From the definition of= "congruent" as "two figures or objects are congruent if the= y have the same shape and size, or if one has the same shape and size as th= e mirror image of the other", it looks as the path A-B-G-H-E-F is cong= ruent to that SR tunnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to monitor = a flow over the SR tunnel is out-of-band relative to that flow and will not= produce any meaningful measurement. Of course, for the case of the extensi= ons in drafts *-twamp-srpm, direct loss measurement can be performed, as in= formation collected from node F and packets that collect the counters are n= ot required to be in-band with the monitored flow. So, this example, in my = opinion, illustrates two of my concerns:
    • using a congruent path for active performance measurement, e.g.,= TWAMP or TWAMP Light, may produce information that does not reflect the co= ndition experienced by the monitored flow. It seems that the terminology sh= ould reflect the fundamental requirement of ensuring that active OAM test p= ackets are in-band with the monitored flow.
    • there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band test packe= ts for direct packet loss measurement. In fact, using the in-band method fo= r collecting in-profile counters leads to a waste of bandwidth, which may h= ave a negative impact on services that require low-latency and/or low packe= t loss. As demonstrated in this example, direct packet loss can be performe= d using an out-of-band mechanism, e.g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications= based on YANG data model.
    =C2=A0

    • Does the document solve a real problem?

    No, it appears that these drafts define a new perfor= mance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP and TWAMP fun= ctionality and adding the ability to collect counters of "in-profile&q= uot; packets. I couldn't find sufficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the e= xisting OAM mechanisms like ICMP.

    =C2=A0

    <RG> There is a requirement to m= easure performance delay as well as synthetic and direct-mode packet loss i= n segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed f= or performance delay and synthetic packet loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a good option he= re.

    GIM>> I= agree with the=C2=A0requirements you've listed (though the=C2=A0SPRING WG OAM requirements document=C2=A0has been aban= doned and expired 3+ years ago). I believe that there's no sufficient t= echnical reason=C2=A0to use OWAMP/TWAMP for exclusive direct packet loss me= asurement.=C2=A0=C2=A0
    =

    • Is the proposed solution technically viable?

    There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly= the risk introduced by the protocol on network security, to comprehensivel= y evaluate the proposed solution.

    <RG> Abou= t your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security section in R= FC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in the = domain by the operator for TWAMP. Other than this, I did not find any other= security related issue in your review below.

    <= /div>
    GIM>> I don't think that a mere refe= rence sufficiently explains why the use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header= is not decremental, does not create a security risk for the protocol.
    =C2=A0

    To summarize my review of=C2=A0these two drafts:<= /u>

    • these propose a new protocol, not an update or enhancement of the TWAMP-lik= e protocol;

    <RG> The = probe and response messages defined in [RFC 5357] are used for delay measur= ement and synthetic packet loss. The direct-mode packet loss messages are defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm that match these delay measurem= ent messages. As stated, draft-gandhi-= ippm-twamp-srpm defines =E2= =80=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D for TWAMP Light.

    GIM>> I cannot find where RFC 5357 defines = "the probe and response messages". Could you give a more specific= reference or provide the text that, in your opinion, defines such messages= ? But I'm more concerned with the direction of "extending" no= n-protocol referred to as "TWAMP Light". As a contributor to BBF&= #39;s=C2=A0TR-390, I'm have learned how different are existing implemen= tations of TWAMP Light. And that is also noted in = EANTC Multi-Vendor Interoperability 2019 white paper. The status of TWA= MP Light is explained in RFC 8545 and I cannot see that it can be used as a= foundation of any standard.

    • several parts of the proposed protocol, e.g., Zero UDP checksum in IPv6, re= quire detailed security analysis, which is currently absent;<= /li>

    <RG> This= is specified in RFC 6936 Security Section. We will add reference to this R= FC in our Security Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in the domain by the operator for TWAMP.

    GIM>>=C2=A0 I&#= 39;ve noted above that a simple reference does not sufficiently explains wh= y the use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, does not = create a security risk for the protocol. I believe that the proposal to use= zero UDP header checksum requires extensive analysis, using the analysis p= rovided in RFC 6936.

    • I was surprised to find out that=C2=A0draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm is on th= e Informational track even though it is essential to the new protocol as it= defines its key elements
    <RG> This was to address your previous comment quoted as=
:
     =
=E2=80=9C- as I understand, the=
 draft is applicable to TWAMP Light mode,

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 mentioned in the informati= onal Appendix I in RFC 5357, not the TWAMP

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 protocol itself. Since TWA= MP Light is not a standard but its idea is

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 described in the informati= onal text only, I think that the Informational

    =C2=A0 track is more appropriate for th= is specification.=E2=80=9D

    https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/bGTsJmJ5-eC3B-mfDCXA= FiCAC3o/

    <RG> Havi= ng said that, we are ok to change to PS.

    =
    GIM>> As explained in RFC 8545 "TWAMP Li= ght is an idea", not a protocol. If anyone is interested in standardiz= ing an "extension", I'd expect that they first define the bas= e specification to which the extension applies. I might have missed the def= inition of TWAMP Light protocol in the draft. Could you point to the defini= tion, for example, of the Authenticated mode in TWAMP Light in the=C2=A0dra= ft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm or RFC 5357?=C2=A0

    • I believe that=C2=A0draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm should be anchored at IP= PM WG as it does introduce the new PM protocol.

    <RG> The = TWAMP Light extension draft-gandhi-ippm-tw= amp-srpm is already in IPPM WG. The SPRING draft only defines SR PM procedures= .

    =C2=A0

    Below, please find my detailed=C2=A0comments, questi= ons on these drafts:

    • draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm

    I have several questions about the relationships bet= ween this draft and Appendix I in RFC 5357 where the idea of a mode known a= s TWAMP Light has been mentioned. The nature of the TWAMP Light and what is= required to make it a standard is well-explained in Section 4 of=C2=A0RFC 8545=C2=A0(apologies for the long= quote):

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0"TWAMP Light" is an idea desc= ribed in Appendix I ("TWAMP Light
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0(Informative)") of [RFC5357]; TWAMP Light includes an uns= pecified
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0control protocol combined with the TWAMP-Test protocol.=C2=A0 = In
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC5357], the TWAMP Light idea was relegated to Appendix I be= cause
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0TWAMP Light failed to meet the requirements for IETF protocols= (there
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0are no specifications for negotiating this form of operation a= nd no
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0specifications for mandatory-to-implement security features), = as
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0described in Appendix A of this memo.=C2=A0 See also [LarsAD] = and
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0[TimDISCUSS].

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0Since the idea of TWAMP Light clearly includes the TWAMP-Test<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0component of TWAMP, it is considered reasonable for future sys= tems to
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0use the TWAMP-Test well-known UDP port (whose reallocated assi= gnment
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0is specified in this document).=C2=A0 Clearly, the TWAMP Light= idea
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0envisions many components and communication capabilities beyon= d
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0TWAMP-Test (implementing the security requirements, for exampl= e);
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0otherwise, Appendix I of [RFC5357] would be one sentence long<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0(equating TWAMP Light with TWAMP-Test only).

    =C2=A0

    Since we don't have an IETF document that addres= sed these open questions, I don't think we can have a draft that propos= es extensions to a non-standard mechanism (Appendix is for Informational ma= terial, as I understand it) on the Standard track.

    =C2=A0

    <RG> This was to address your previous comment quoted as=

     =
=E2=80=9C- as I understand, the=
 draft is applicable to TWAMP Light mode,

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 mentioned in the informati= onal Appendix I in RFC 5357, not the TWAMP

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 protocol itself. Since TWA= MP Light is not a standard but its idea is

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 described in the informati= onal text only, I think that the Informational

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 track is more appropriate = for this specification.=E2=80=9D

    https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/bGTsJmJ5-eC3B-mfDCXA= FiCAC3o/

    <RG> Havi= ng said that, we are ok to change to PS as you mentioned above.

    <RG> BTW,= despite only difference of fixed vs. variable length payload in STAMP vs. = TWAMP Light, the STAMP is a proposed standard as RFC 8762 (and it uses the same approach of provisioning=C2=A0 as defined in this draft). He= nce, security considerations for STAMP and TWAMP Light are not different. N= ote that both STAMP and TWAMP Light have authenticated messages defined for= Security purpose.

    GIM>> RFC 5357 mentioned TWAMP Light as an unauthenticated, and thu= s the light, simpler, version of TWAMP-Test component of TWAMP protocol. I = cannot find in=C2=A0draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm definition of the Authen= ticated mode of TWAMP Light. Also, I'll prefer not to refer to RFC 8762= STAMP in the discussion of "extension" to TWAMP Light.

    Now a number of more specific questions.

    draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm:

    • In the Introduction it is stated that:

    =C2=A0 The TWAMP Light [Appendix I in RFC5357] [BBF.= TR-390] provides
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0simplified mechanisms for active performance measurement in Cu= stomer
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0IP networks by provisioning UDP paths and eliminates the need = for
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0control-channel signaling.

    I can not=C2=A0find where, either Appendix I or TR-3= 90, "eliminated the need for control-channel signaling". Also, co= uld you point where the referenced documents describe "provisioning UD= P paths"?

    =C2=A0

    <RG> The Appendix I of RFC 5357 has following text. We c=
an reword and match the exact text if you prefer.

    =C2=A0
    

    =
=E2=80=9CThis example eliminate=
s the need for the TWAMP-Control protocol, and
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 assumes that the Ses=
sion-Reflector is configured=E2=80=9D
    <= /div>
    GIM>> I think that the text you're proposi= ng is even more confusing. It is not clear which example the sentence is re= ferring to. Also, what is the basis for such an assumption?=C2=A0
    • It appears that the last paragraph in the Introduction describes the relati= onship with Appendix I of RFC 5357:

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0The procedure uses the mechanisms defin= ed in [RFC5357]
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0(TWAMP Light) and its extensions for Performance Measurement.<= u>

    I think that the reference must be to Appendix I, no= t RFC 5357. Also, could you please specify which extensions of TWAMP Light = have been used in this draft?

    <RG> We can add the Appendix I a= s reference in the next revision. Extensions are defined in draft-gandhi-ip= pm-twamp-srpm, we can add this reference.

    GIM>> The problem, in my view, is that Appen= dix I of RFC 5357 must be a normative reference while it is, by its nature,= an Informational document.=C2=A0

    • In Section 2.3 describing the reference model is noted:
      • <= /ul>

      =C2=A0 =C2=A0The probe response message is typically= sent to the sender node R1.

      In which scenarios the reflector acts differently? H= ow such behavior is related to the behavior of a TWAMP Session-Reflector, a= s defined in RFC 5357?

      <RG> Do you prefer we remove =E2= =80=9Ctypically=E2=80=9D from the sentence?

    GIM>> If that fits into the operational mo= del of the new protocol you're defining.=C2=A0

    • Also in Section 2.3 a Link is mentioned as an element directly connecting n= odes in the presented reference model. Could you clarify what is a Link? Is= it always a physical connection between two systems or a virtual?

    <RG> Both= , please see Section 4.1.3. =E2=80=9CLink=E2=80=9D is well known term used = in many existing RFCs (please see RFC 5613, 5340, 8330).

    GIM>> Thank you for the refer= ences. I couldn't find a definition of an object "Link" (capi= talized) but only "link" (lower case). Hence, since the draft con= sistently uses the capitalized form, I consider it to be something else, so= mething different from a link.=C2=A0
    <= div>

    • In Section 3 behavior of the reflector described as

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0... no PM state for delay or loss measu= rement need to be created on the
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0reflector node R5.

    That is in contradiction to the behavior of a TWAMP = Session-Reflector as defined in RFC 5357. Could you provide a reference to = an IETF standard where this behavior is defined? Also, how, without creatin= g a state at the Session-Reflector, to achieve one-way delay and synthetic loss measurement on a bidirectional= SR tunnel?

    =C2=A0

    <RG> Quoting the text from Appen= dix I in RFC 5357. We can quote the text as is.

    =E2=80=9CIn the case of TWAMP Lig=
ht, the Session-Reflector does not necessarily have knowledge of the sessio=
n state. =E2=80=9C
    <= div>GIM>> By the informational nature of Appendix I, the text is not = normative. I am familiar with the implementation of TWAMP Light which does = maintain the session state and thus supports one-way packet loss measuremen= t. If you require that the remote node does not maintain the state, the dra= ft must define that as part of the specifying the behavior of the protocol.=

    =C2=A0

    • Further, in Section 3 the selection of UDP port explained as the following:=

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0As specified in [RFC8545], the reflecto= r
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0supports the destination UDP port 862 for delay measurement pr= obe
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0messages by default.=C2=A0 This UDP port however, is not used = for loss
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0measurement probe messages.

    To the best of my understanding, as one of the contr= ibutors and=C2=A0Editors of RFC 8545, it re-allocated UDP port 862 for use = by a TWAMP Session-Reflector without excluding any type of measurement. Bes= ides, in TWAMP delay and packet loss are measured in the same test session, using the same flow of TWAMP-Test packe= ts.

    =C2=A0

    <RG> The = packet loss in existing RFC 5357 refers to synthetic loss as there is no su= pport for direct-mode loss in RFC 5357. We can change the text to clarify a= s =E2=80=9CThis UDP port however, is not used for direct-mode loss measurement probe messages.=E2= =80=9D

    GIM>>= ; I've found that there's some misconception in the draft. RFC 8545= re-assigned UDP port 862 not for "delay measurement probe messages&qu= ot; but for TWAMP-Test protocol. TWAMP-Test protocol, in turn, supports pac= ket delay, packet loss, reordering (RFC 4737 defines packet reordering metr= ic), and packet duplication measurement.

    • Then the draft states that

    The sender uses the UDP port number following the gu= idelines specified in Section 6 in [RFC6335].

    Could you point to the guidelines that a user can us= e when selecting a UDP port number of a test session?

    =C2=A0

    <RG> Please see section 6 in [RF= C6335]. We can cite the range which will be the same as used in [RFC8762]. = This was also discussed earlier.

    https://mailarchive.ietf.= org/arch/msg/ippm/ONYYhG9Y8sbiNO15bxWIRM9ymEE/

    GIM>> I've looked through Section 6 bu= t I don't find anything specifically applicable to this draft we're= discussing. If the protocol to use UDP port numbers from the Dynamic ports= range, a.k.a., Private or Ephemeral, then it seems that stating that expli= citly would be the best way.=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    • At the closing of the paragraph, we read that

    =C2=A0 The number of UDP ports with PM functionality= needs to be minimized due
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0to limited hardware resources.

    Does a UDP port number pose PM functionality? How it= is assigned to the port number?

    <RG> UDP = ports are user configured for delay and direct-mode loss PM as described in= Section 3.1.

    GIM= >> Can UDP port 862 be used? Also, requiring that the direct-loss mea= surement uses port number different from the one used by a TWAMP-Test packe= t, in my opinion, is another indication that this is the definition of a di= fferent from TWAMP Light PM OAM protocol.

    • Following the above-quoted text, in Section 3 is noted:
      • <= /ul>

      =C2=A0 =C2=A0For Performance Measurement, probe quer= y and response messages are
      =C2=A0 =C2=A0sent as following:

      Could you clarify if the listed further procedures d= eviate from OWAMP/TWAMP or follow procedures defined in RFC 4656 and RFC 53= 57 for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector respectively?

      <RG> Probe messages follow the s= ame procedure as defined in RFC 4656 and RFC 5357.

    GIM>> All messages, i.e., TWAMP-Tes= t packets as well as the defined in=C2=A0draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm?=C2= =A0

    • for both delay and loss measurements draft requires test packet be transmit= ted on a congruent path:

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the probe messages are sent on = the
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 congruent path of the data traffic by the sender node<= u>

    It is not clear what "the congruent path" = means. The definition of=C2=A0congruency in geometry tells us that an objec= t B is congruent=C2=A0to object A if it has the same shape and size, but is= allowed to flip, slide or turn. How a path can be congruent to another path?

    <RG> Ther= e are many existing RFCs that use term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669)= without defining them. I suspect it is because it is well-known term. Havi= ng said that, we can add a reference for it if it helps reader.

    GI= M>> I cannot assume what was the context of these RFCs. I've sket= ched a network diagram above to illustrate=C2=A0that a "congruent path= " may well lead to out-of-band path. Is that the intention of the auth= ors of the draft to use this protocol out-of-band?

    • The last paragraph in Section 3 refers to work on iOAM:
      • <= /ul>

      =C2=A0 =C2=A0The In-Situ Operations, Administration,= and Maintenance (IOAM)
      =C2=A0 =C2=A0mechanisms for SR-MPLS defined in [I-D.gandhi-mpls-ioam-sr] an= d for
      =C2=A0 =C2=A0SRv6 defined in [I-D.ali-spring-ioam-srv6] are used to carry P= M
      =C2=A0 =C2=A0information such as timestamp in-band as part of the data pack= ets,
      =C2=A0 =C2=A0and are outside the scope of this document.

      Is iOAM in the scope of this specification? What are= the relationships between iOAM and=C2=A0draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm?=

      <RG> As mentioned in the draft, = IOAM is outside the scope.

    GIM>> Yes, but it appears that references to the two IOAM-r= elated drafts have some purpose. What is it? How are these drafts related t= o=C2=A0draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm?=C2=A0

    • Section 3.1 presents an example of the provisioning model but puts the defi= nition of the provisioning model outside the scope. Is there an accompanyin= g specification that defines the provisioning model that can be used in mul= ti-vendor deployment? Could that be YANG data model? What is the relationship with=C2=A0draft-= ietf-ippm-twamp-yang? Would the TWAMP YANG data model be augmented?<= /u>

    <RG> Yes,= this can be Yang model. We can review draft-ietf-ippm-tw= amp-yang and add any missin= g items in a separate draft. We can also add a reference in this draft.

    GIM>> I think that theremust=C2=A0be some = discussion on how the new protocol is configured. If TWAMP YANG data model = can be augmented, I'd expect that being defined in=C2=A0draft-gandhi-ip= pm-twamp-srpm. But I couldn't find anything about the configuration of = the protocol.=C2=A0
    =

    • Section 4.1 states that a new message is introduced to perform the Loss Mea= surement in this protocol Why the capability of TWAMP to measure the loss i= n one-way and two-way is not sufficient?

    <RG> Exis= ting TWAMP messages do not support =E2=80=9Cdirect-mode=E2=80=9D loss measu= rement. We can add =E2=80=9Cdirect-mode=E2=80=9D in the text to clarify.

    GIM>> True, d= irect loss measurement, in fact, is not active measurement and thus is outs= ide the scope of Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP). The direct-lo= ss measurement is, by the definition of RFC 7799, passive measurement metho= d and fetching counters can be done using numerous methods, e.g., SNMP, Net= conf.

    • Section 4.1.1 requires that

    =C2=A0 The Destination UDP port cannot be used as So= urce port, since
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0the message does not have any indication to distinguish betwee= n the
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0query and response message.

    Does that imply that the Destination UDP port used f= or the Delay measurement is unique throughout the particular domain?=

    <RG> This= is user-defined and is up to the user what UDP port to provision in a doma= in.

    GIM>> S= o, can user configure a port number from the User Ports range? Or, can the = same port number be used on the same system for a number of test sessions? = I find the use of UDP port numbers being underspecified.

    • Section 4.1.2 of RFC 5357 does not define "the delay measurement messa= ge" but refers to the definition of the Session-Sender's test pack= et in RFC 4656 OWAMP. Note, that OWAMP and TWAMP are using a single test pa= cket format to perform both delay and packet loss measurement.

    <RG> Ok, = we can update the text in the next revision to indicate exact name from the= RFC 4656. We can also add text to include synthetic packet loss.

    GIM>> I think that m= aking it explicit would help. Also, that will highlight what is being intro= duced by *twamp-srpm drafts is, in fact, a new protocol to perform syntheti= c packet loss measurement.=C2=A0
    =

    =

    • Can you explain how "the DM probe query message contains the payload f= ormat defined in Section 4.2.1 of [RFC5357]" when the referenced secti= on of RFC 5357 defines the format of a Session-Reflector's test packet?=

    <RG> We c= an update the text in the next revision to indicate query format name from = RFC 5357.

    GIM>= > I cannot find any reference to a query format in RFCs 4656/5357. Could= you please quote from any of these documents?

    • Can clarify the applicability of RFC 6038 and the symmetrical packet size? = Is it required? Can it be non-symmetrical?
    <RG> Yes. Please see section 4.1.1 and quoted below:<=
/u>
    =E2=80=9CFor symmetrical size query and response messages as def=
ined in [RFC6038],=E2=80=9D
    GIM>> RFC 6038 defines an extension to RFC 5357 for OPTI= ONAL use of the symmetrical test packets. Since *-twamp-srpm proposals do n= ot use TWAMP-Control protocol and Appendix I in RFC 5357 tells us nothing a= bout that either (in part because RFC 6038 came later), I don't see tha= t there's any certainty in what is the sze of a test packet used in the= direct-loss measurement.=C2=A0
    <= div>
    • Can you clarify the use of the timestamp format, NTP or PTPv2? It is not cl= ear which is the default, mandatory or optional.

    <RG> This= is same as TWAMP. There is no change.

    GIM>> Per RFC 5357, TWAMP uses only NTP format.= Is that the case for *-twamp-srpm?=C2=A0

    • Also, is "hardware support in Segment Routing networks" of the PT= Pv2 format required, guaranteed, or something else?

    <RG> Hard= ware timestamps are recommended for SR use-cases. We can change the sentenc= e.

    GIM>> Pe= rhaps you can propose some text, that would be helpful.=C2=A0

    • Section 4.1.1.1 stated that

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0A separate user-configured
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0destination UDP port is used for the delay measurement in
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0authentication mode due to the different probe message format.=

    Can that be interpreted that there could be concurre= nt authenticated and unauthenticated test sessions using this protocol? Wou= ld different authentication methods require using unique destination UDP po= rt numbers?

    =C2=A0

    <RG> Yes,= and Yes, and these are based on provisioning.

    =
    GIM>> But that requirement is far outsi= de the TWAMP, as defined in RFC 5357.
    =

    • Section 4.1.2 by introducing the dedicated Loss measurement packet format, = effectively modifies the behavior defined in RFC 5357 for Session-Sender an= d Session-Reflector. But the document does not state that. Can you clarify = whether this specification changes the behavior of a Session-Sender and Session-Reflector as defined in RFC 4= 656 and RFC 5357 respectively for the support of packet loss measurement?

    <RG> The = direct-mode loss defines new procedure for sender/reflector to collect traf= fic counters, as opposed to timestamp. The rest is the same as RFC 4656 and= 5357.

    GIM>>= ; I cannot agree with your statement " The rest is the same as RFC 4656 and 5357" because the sender's di= rect-loss format does not have Error Estimate field, Thus, a reflected pack= et does not have Sender's Error Estimate, nor Error Estimate of the ref= lector. And that, in my opinion, is another clear indication that *twamp-sr= pm drafts define a new protocol, separate from OWAMP/TWAMP.

    • And a similar question about the use of the separate UDP port number for th= e authenticated of the packet loss measurement.
    • A couple of question to the following text in Section 4.1.3:<= /li>

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0The local and remote IP
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0addresses of the link are used as Source and Destination Addre= sses.
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0They can also be IPv6 link local address as probe messages are= pre-
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0routed.

      • What are the addresses of a link?

    <RG> I am= assuming this well-known (e.g. RFC 2328).

    GIM>> I am not familiar with the term "= ;pre-routed". What does it mean?=C2=A0

      • In which scenarios an IPv6 LLA can be used?

    <RG> I am= assuming this is well-known (e.g. RFC 5613).

    <= /div>
    GIM>> So, LLA may be used as the source = and destination addresses when testing an SR tunnel?=C2=A0

      • Also, could the use of a routable destination IP address be used as a DDOS = attack vector? Consider the scenario when an attacker generates SR-encapsul= ated packets with the destination IP address other than any of the SR-termi= nating nodes. Such=C2=A0a=C2=A0packet will be routed, correct? That does appear as a security threat, would you agree= ?

    <RG> Abso= lutely do not agree. It is no different than IP routed TWAMP packet as defi= ned in [RFC5357].

    GIM>> You don't agree that the processing described cannot happe= n because of laws of physics or it wouldn't happen because no one will = think of that? If the latter, I think that that is security threat.

    =

    • Section 4.1.4.2 references Figure 5 that, as I understand it, displays the= =C2=A0format of a probe query message. In figure two references to RFC 5357= are provided - a section that references RFC 4656 OWAMP definition of the = Session-Sender test packet, and a section that defines the Session-Reflector's reflected packet. Which of the tw= o is used for the delay measurement in the proposed protocol?=

    <RG> The = probe query packet in the Session-Sender text packet. We can update the nam= e.

    • Section 4.2.1 states that

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0In one-way measurement mode, the probe = response message as defined in
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0Figure 6 is sent back out-of-band to the sender node ...

    Could you clarify how the responder controls that th= e response packet is sent not in-band but out-of-band?

    =C2=A0

    <RG> Plea= se refer to section 3.1 in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm.=C2=A0 This is exis= ting behaviour for out-of-band.

    GIM>>=C2=A0draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm does not speci= fy that it defines another new protocol OWAMP Light. And it is not clear wh= at you reference as "this is existing behavior". Is it to referen= ce behavior of TWAMP test packet? But the behavior of the TWAMP-Test protoc= ol by itself is neither in-band, nor out-of-band. It is the encapsulation o= f the TWAMP test packet that makes it either in-band or out-of-band.=C2=A0<= /div>

    • Section 4.3.3 states that a zero-value UDP checksum may be used in some sce= narios. RFC 8085 allows that but in very specific cases that are documented= in detail in Section 3.4.1. Do you believe that the case of this protocol = checks all the requirements for allowing the use of Zero UDP checksum as specified in RFC 8085? Also, I be= lieve that allowing the use of Zero UDP checksum in some scenarios, this pr= otocol introduces a security threat that must be thoroughly analyzed in the= Security Considerations section.

    <RG> This= is described in RFC 6936. It will be very specific to the UDP port provisi= oned for TWAMP. We will add reference to RFC 6936 in Security Section.

    GIM>> I don'= ;t think that the reference is sufficient for the Securit=C2=A0Consideratio= n. I'd expect some extended discussion on why using zero UDP header che= cksum is not a security threat for *twamp-srpm=C2=A0 protocol.

    • Section 8 refers to "liveness monitoring of Links and SR Paths". = This appears as the replication of functionality provided by BFD/S-BFD prot= ocols. Is such comparison accurate? If it is, shouldn't the proposal be= also reviewed by the BFD WG?

    <RG> TWAM= P=C2=A0 probe messages are used today for synthetic packet loss which can a= lso be used to detect connection loss (performance metric). The section simply highlights this obvious metric.

    <= /div>
    GIM>> Can you point to a document that has def= ined "TWAMP=C2=A0 probe messages are used today for synthetic packet l= oss"? Also, which document defines loss of connectivity as a performan= ce metric? Does *twamp-srpm proposes to use the new protocol to detect the = loss of path continuity?

    <= u>

    • I found the Security Section of the proposed protocol inadequately terse an= d missing very important threats that this protocol introduces in the netwo= rk.

    <RG> Othe= r than referring RFC 6936 for zero checksum what else is missing? Otherwise= it is no different than RFC 8762 (STAMP).

    GIM>> I cannot see how RFC 8762 is relevant= to *twamp-srpm drafts. The use of source IP addresses, as mentioned above,= appears to be another security risk introduced by *-twamp-srpm drafts.=C2= =A0

    • draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm

    As I understand it, the motivation for the Loss Meas= urement mode defined in this specification is to collect "in-profile&q= uot; counters. Is that correct? Do you see as essential for this mode that = the query messages are in-band with the flow being profiled? In your opinion, how using an out-of-band method of collec= ting these counters, e.g., by using ICMP multi-part=C2=A0message extension = per RFC 4884, could affect the accuracy comparing with the method in this p= rotocol? How the impact changes if extended ICMP messages are in-band with the profiled flow?

    =C2=A0

    <RG> As m= entioned earlier, I am not sure extending ICMP to do PM = is a good option here. Both TWAMP and OWAMP are widely deployed today for d= elay and synthetic loss measurement.

    GIM>> What is the reason mentioning OWAMP? Are dr= afts *-twamp-srpm extend RFC 4656 OWAMP as well? Also, what you see as the = connection between using active measurement methods to measure packet delay= and packet loss, on one hand, and collecting packet counters?

    • Section 3.1 introduces the new field, Sender Control Code. The format of th= e packet, as I understand it, is presented in Figure 1. When comparing with= the format of Session-Sender's test packet defined in RFC 4656 OWAMP i= n Section 4.1.2 I've noticed that there are no MBZ fields. Are these introduced by your proposal?

    <RG> It s= hows the partial message that has new field. We can update it to show the f= ull message to avoid such confusion.

    • Also, it appears that the Sequence Number field in TWAMP Session-Sender'= ;s test packet is absent in Figure 1. Is that intentional?

    <RG> It s= hows the partial message that has new field. We can update it to show the f= ull message to avoid such confusion.

    Thanks,<= u>

    Rakesh

    =C2=A0

    Regards,

    Greg

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 5:51 AM James Guichard <<= a href=3D"mailto:james.n.guichard@futurewei.com" target=3D"_blank">james.n.= guichard@futurewei.com> wrote:

    Dear WG:

    =C2=A0

    This message starts a 3 week WG= adoption call for document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr= aft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 ending Nove= mber 12th 2020. Please note that this document has several changes from v-10 that were requested by the SPR= ING and IPPM chairs. For this reason, the chairs have extended the adoption= call for an additional week to allow the WG enough time to review these ch= anges before deciding on WG adoption.

    =C2=A0

    Some background: =C2=A0<= u>

    =C2=A0

    Several review comments were re= ceived previously for document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr= aft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10. The SPRING and IPPM chairs considered those comments, and upon revie= w of this version of the document, determined the following:

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    These conclusions were discussed with the authors of= =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr= aft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10 the result of which is the publication of the following two documents:<= /u>

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    After review of the SPRING document please indicate = support (or not) for WG adoption to the mailing list. Please also provide comments/reasons for that support = (or lack thereof) as silence will not be considered as consent.

    =C2=A0

    Finally, the chairs would like = to thank the authors for their efforts in this matter.=

    =C2=A0

    Thanks!

    =C2=A0

    Jim, Bruno, & Joel

    =C2=A0

    _______________________________________________
    spring mailing list
    spring@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

    =C2=A0

    --000000000000d33cc305b42e2a1b-- From nobody Sun Nov 15 17:09:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F9443A0DBC; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 17:08:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.796 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.796 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YMXjJWhsCIPs; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 17:08:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.149.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C963E3A0DBB; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 17:08:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049295.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049295.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.43/8.16.0.43) with SMTP id 0AG13waQ012858; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 20:08:57 -0500 Received: from tlpd255.enaf.dadc.sbc.com (sbcsmtp3.sbc.com [144.160.112.28]) by m0049295.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 34tw2utb7h-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 15 Nov 2020 20:08:57 -0500 Received: from enaf.dadc.sbc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tlpd255.enaf.dadc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 0AG18tqe020385; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 19:08:56 -0600 Received: from zlp30496.vci.att.com (zlp30496.vci.att.com [135.46.181.157]) by tlpd255.enaf.dadc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 0AG18nOe020205 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 15 Nov 2020 19:08:49 -0600 Received: from zlp30496.vci.att.com (zlp30496.vci.att.com [127.0.0.1]) by zlp30496.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTP id 079A5403A430; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 01:08:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from clph811.sldc.sbc.com (unknown [135.41.107.12]) by zlp30496.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTP id DB490403A428; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 01:08:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from sldc.sbc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by clph811.sldc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 0AG18lXF068468; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 19:08:48 -0600 Received: from mail-green.research.att.com (mail-green.research.att.com [135.207.255.15]) by clph811.sldc.sbc.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id 0AG18eQM067950; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 19:08:40 -0600 Received: from exchange.research.att.com (njbdcas1.research.att.com [135.197.255.61]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6458F10A18DE; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 20:08:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from njmtexg5.research.att.com ([fe80::b09c:ff13:4487:78b6]) by njbdcas1.research.att.com ([fe80::8c6b:4b77:618f:9a01%11]) with mapi id 14.03.0468.000; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 20:08:30 -0500 From: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" To: Tommy Pauly CC: IPPM Chairs , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring Thread-Index: AQHWruzJZgXGdq0BHES6jNIu3KApFKm1O5qAgBSzOQA= Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 01:08:29 +0000 Message-ID: <4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF0147648D69@njmtexg5.research.att.com> References: <63A1B18E-A7F6-4F91-8503-F1FCE3CF945A@apple.com> <6CAF4468-8AA6-43B7-A621-6116E473BFEC@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <6CAF4468-8AA6-43B7-A621-6116E473BFEC@apple.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [24.148.42.167] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF0147648D69njmtexg5resea_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.312, 18.0.737 definitions=2020-11-15_11:2020-11-13, 2020-11-15 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 clxscore=1011 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 impostorscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2011160006 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 01:09:00 -0000 --_000_4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF0147648D69njmtexg5resea_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tommy and Ian, I'm writing to express some support for R=FCdiger's draft: draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring I would like to see the draft clarified in a few areas, concentrating on se= ction 3. Section 3, titled "Singleton Definition for Type-P-SR-Path-Connectivity-and-Congestion" It seems that this metric will need to represent both loss and delay to inf= er connectivity and congestion, starting in section 3.3. In 3.2, o lambda, a rate in reciprocal seconds and o DS, a constant time interval between two type-P packets seem to specify the same stream parameter, except that lambda is usually as= sociated with Poisson streams, and a constant time interval is for periodic= streams. Maybe both are possible, but not at the same time. In 3.3. Metric Units A sequence of consecutive time values. There are still units missing (seconds for delay change from the average?),= and loss count or loss ratio. These two different dimensions need to be r= epresented, and then connectivity and congestion need to be teased apart (b= oth can cause loss). In 3.4. Definition, It would be good to see more details on the moving average, starting with = a parameter in 3.2 that describes the window of the moving average, and an = equation or reference for the "change point detection algorithm". Al From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly Sent: Monday, November 2, 2020 9:17 AM To: Tommy Pauly Cc: IPPM Chairs ; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitor= ing On Oct 30, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Tommy Pauly > wrote: Hello IPPM, This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-geib-ippm-con= nectivity-monitoring. This document has been presented several times and di= scussed within the working group. The document can be found here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03 (Corrected link) Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mon= day, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --_000_4D7F4AD313D3FC43A053B309F97543CF0147648D69njmtexg5resea_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hi Tommy and Ian,

     

    I’m writing to express some support for = R=FCdiger’s draft:

        draft-geib-ippm-connectivit= y-monitoring

     <= /span>

    I would like to see the draft clarified in a f= ew areas, concentrating on section 3.

     

    Section 3, titled

    “Singleton Definition for Type-P-SR-Path= -Connectivity-and-Congestion”

     

    It seems that this metric will need to represe= nt both loss and delay to infer connectivity and congestion, starting in se= ction 3.3.

     

    In 3.2,

    o  lambda, a rate in reciprocal seconds

    and

    o  DS, a constant time interval between t= wo type-P packets

    seem to specify the same stream parameter, exc= ept that lambda is usually associated with Poisson streams, and a constant = time interval is for periodic streams.  Maybe both are possible, but not at the same time.

     

    In 3.3.  Metric Units

     

       A sequence of consecutive time va= lues.

     

    There are still units missing (seconds for del= ay change from the average?), and loss count or loss ratio.  These two= different dimensions need to be represented, and then connectivity and congestion need to be teased apart (both can cause loss).=

     

    In 3.4.  Definition,

    It would be good to see  more details on = the moving average, starting with a parameter in 3.2 that describes the win= dow of the moving average, and an equation or reference for the “change point detection algorithm”.  <= /span>

     

    Al

     

     

    From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf= .org] On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly
    Sent: Monday, November 2, 2020 9:17 AM
    To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@iet= f.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-= monitoring

     

     



    On Oct 30, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc= .ietf.org> wrote:

     

    Hello IPPM,


    This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-geib-ipp= m-connectivity-monitoring. This document has been presented several times a= nd discussed within the working group.

    The document can be found here:

    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitorin= g-03

     

    (Corrected link)




    Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, o= n Monday, November 16.

    Best,
    Tommy & Ian

    _______________________________________________
    ippm mailing list
    ippm@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

     

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(No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F37FD3A0E9E for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 17:47:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml710-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.200]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4CZBj74Cpcz67DXs for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 09:45:15 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml710-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.59) by fraeml710-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.59) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 02:47:22 +0100 Received: from DGGEML424-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.41) by fraeml710-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.59) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.1913.5 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 02:47:22 +0100 Received: from DGGEML524-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.26]) by dggeml424-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.41]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 09:47:17 +0800 From: wangyali To: =?gb2312?B?Q2hhbmcgTGl1KMGqzai8r83F1tC5+sGqzajR0L6/1Lotsb6yvyk=?= , ippm Thread-Topic: [ippm] New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01 Thread-Index: AQHWuZyoq+VxhJvCHU+DFYXvzHoj86nJ+tlw Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 01:47:17 +0000 Message-ID: <1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F4050BCA04@dggeml524-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F405050B14@dggeml524-mbx.china.huawei.com> <3cfd787769f54f36ae5175a9223a148c@M10-HQ-ML12.hq.cnc.intra> In-Reply-To: <3cfd787769f54f36ae5175a9223a148c@M10-HQ-ML12.hq.cnc.intra> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.136] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F4050BCA04dggeml524mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 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    Hi Chang,

     

    Thanks for your review and commends. = Please check inline [Yali].

    I=A1=AFm appreciated that you are int= erested in joining in this work.

     

    From: Chang Liu(=C1=AA=CD=A8=BC=AF=CD=C5=D6=D0=B9=FA=C1= =AA=CD=A8=D1=D0=BE=BF=D4=BA-=B1=BE=B2=BF) [mailto:liuc131@chinaunicom.cn]
    Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 5:23 PM
    To: wangyali <wangyali11@huawei.com>; ippm <ippm@ietf.org&g= t;
    Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extens= ions-01

     

    Hi Yali,
    I have read the draft and have some questi=
ons.
    1.What is the method by which the intermed=
iate nodes obtain the timestamp? Hardware or Software? 
    It is recommended to add clarifications that the intermediate n=
ode obtain the timestamp in the same way as the STAMP sender and reflector.=

    [Yali] Have been clarified in the latest version https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensi=
ons-02#page-5 that =A1=B0Note that the source of =
clock synchronization, NTP or PTP, is part of configuration of the Session-=
Sender/Reflector or a particular test session [RFC8762].  This draft r=
ecommends every intermediate nodes to be configured to use the same source =
of clock synchronization.=A1=B1
     
    2.Is it necessary that every=
 intermediate node should support the same kind of clock source? 
    How to check timestamp information supported by every intermedi=
ate node in a case that the type of clock source supported by every interme=
diate node is different from that supported by the STAMP sender/reflector?<=
o:p>
    [Yali] This draft recommends every intermediate nodes t=
o be configured to use the same source of clock synchronization. In the lat=
est version, a new HbH Timestamp Information TLV is defined to query the in=
gress and egress Timestamp Information at every intermediate nodes along th=
e forward path. The Timestamp Information includes the source of clock sync=
hronization and the method of timestamp obtainment. The method of timestamp=
 obtainment may be from control plane (e.g.  NTP) or from data plane (=
e.g.  PTP).
     
    Thanks

    Liu Chang<= /p>

    China Unicom

    Phone: +8618601102572

     

     

    Hello WG,<= /p>

     

    Draft about extensions to ST= AMP enable hop-by-hop OAM data measurement and collection has been updated,= which was presented in IETF108. Questions and comments are welcome.

     

    Because the performance of i= ntermediate nodes and links that STAMP test packets traverse are invisible,= to solve this problem, this draft extents optional TLVs to STAMP and inserts IOAM Trace option data in the test packets or di= spatches test packets to the OAM process at OAM Endpoint.=

     

    In this case, the STAMP inst= ance does not need to be configured at every intermediate node to measure t= he performance of intermediate nodes, which decreases the complexity of OAM in large-scale networks.

     

    What do you think?

     

    Best regards,

    Yali

     

     

    -----Original Message-----

    Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2= 020 9:03 PM

    To: wangyali <wangyali11@huawei.com>; Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>

    Subject: New Version Notific= ation for draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01.txt

     

     

    A new version of I-D, draft-= wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-01.txt

    has been successfully submit= ted by Yali Wang and posted to the IETF repository.

     

    Name:    = ;       draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions<= o:p>

    Revision:   &= nbsp;   01

    Title:   &nbs= p;      Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol= Extensions for Hop-by-Hop OAM Data Collection

    Document date:  2020-10= -27

    Group:   &nbs= p;      Individual Submission

    Pages:   &nbs= p;      10

     

    Abstract:<= /p>

       This document d= efines optional TLVs which are carried in Simple Two-

       way Active Meas= urement Protocol (STAMP) test packets to enhance the

       STAMP base func= tions.  Such extensions to STAMP enable OAM data

       measurement and= collection at every node and link along a STAMP test

       packet's delive= ry path.

     

     

     

     

     

    Please note that it may take= a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version= and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

     

    The IETF Secretariat

     

     

    ____________________________= ___________________

    ippm mailing list=

    =C8=E7=B9=FB= =C4=FA=B4=ED=CE=F3=BD=D3=CA=D5=C1=CB=B8=C3=D3=CA=BC=FE=A3=AC=C7=EB=CD=A8=B9= =FD=B5=E7=D7=D3=D3=CA=BC=FE=C1=A2=BC=B4=CD=A8=D6=AA=CE=D2=C3=C7=A1=A3=C7=EB= =BB=D8=B8=B4=D3=CA=BC=FE=B5=BD <= a href=3D"mailto:hqs-spmc@chinaunicom.cn=A3=AC=BC=B4=BF=C9=D2=D4=CD=CB=B6= =A9=B4=CB=D3=CA=BC=FE=A1=A3=CE=D2=C3=C7=BD=AB=C1=A2=BC=B4=BD=AB=C4=FA=B5=C4= =D0=C5=CF=A2=B4=D3=CE=D2=C3=C7=B5=C4=B7=A2=CB=CD=C4=BF=C2=BC=D6=D0=C9=BE=B3= =FD">hqs-spmc@chinaunicom.cn=A3=AC=BC=B4= =BF=C9=D2=D4=CD=CB=B6=A9=B4=CB=D3=CA=BC=FE=A1=A3=CE=D2=C3=C7=BD=AB=C1=A2=BC= =B4=BD=AB=C4=FA=B5=C4=D0=C5=CF=A2=B4=D3=CE=D2=C3=C7=B5=C4=B7=A2=CB=CD=C4=BF= =C2=BC=D6=D0=C9=BE=B3=FD=A1=A3 If you have received this email in error please notify us immediately by e= -mail. Please reply to hqs-spmc@chinaunicom.cn&n= bsp;,you can unsubscribe from this mail. We will immediately remove your informatio= n from send catalogue of our.

    --_000_1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F4050BCA04dggeml524mbxchi_-- From nobody Sun Nov 15 17:47:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 330BC3A0E51; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 17:47:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m06oKna1-pTx; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 17:47:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 086B13A0F0B; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 17:47:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 0AG1lfKa031748 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 15 Nov 2020 20:47:46 -0500 Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 17:47:41 -0800 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Greg Mirsky Cc: IPPM Chairs , IETF IPPM WG , Martin Duke Message-ID: <20201116014741.GI39170@kduck.mit.edu> References: <160547198788.19537.15229397486486707601@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-10.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 01:47:58 -0000 Hi Greg, I'm glad you could get this posted right when submissions open :) I've updated my ballot in the datatracker to No Objection, so Martin should be able to push the button when he's satisfied. Thanks again, Ben On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 12:29:18PM -0800, Greg Mirsky wrote: > Dear All, > updates in this version address the DISCUSS from Benjamin Kaduk. Many > thanks to Ben for his reviews and great discussions that helped to improve > the document. > Please let me know if there are any remaining questions. > > Regards, > Greg (on behalf of the authors) > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: > Date: Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 12:26 PM > Subject: New Version Notification for > draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-10.txt > To: Henrik Nydell , Xiao Min , > Ernesto Ruffini , Richard Foote , > Adi Masputra , Greg Mirsky > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-10.txt > has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv > Revision: 10 > Title: Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol Optional > Extensions > Document date: 2020-11-15 > Group: ippm > Pages: 32 > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-10.txt > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv/ > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv > Htmlized: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-10 > Diff: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-10 > > Abstract: > This document describes optional extensions to Simple Two-way Active > Measurement Protocol (STAMP) that enable measurement of performance > metrics. The document also defines a STAMP Test Session Identifier > and thus updates RFC 8762. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat From nobody Sun Nov 15 18:24:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC9893A0EC3; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 18:24:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 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2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietf.org Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1843D3A129D; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 20:25:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.22.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: martin.h.duke@gmail.com, ippm-chairs@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, Yali Wang , ippm@ietf.org, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv@ietf.org, wangyali11@huawei.com, The IESG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <160550071507.17081.553244143461952910@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 20:25:15 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Protocol Action: 'Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol Optional Extensions' to Proposed Standard (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-10.txt) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 04:25:15 -0000 The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol Optional Extensions' (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv-10.txt) as Proposed Standard This document is the product of the IP Performance Measurement Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Martin Duke and Magnus Westerlund. A URL of this Internet Draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv/ Technical Summary This document describes optional extensions to Simple Two-way Active Measurement Protocol (STAMP) which enable measurement performance metrics in addition to ones supported by the STAMP base specification. The document also defines a STAMP Test Session Identifier and thus updates RFC 8762. Working Group Summary The document has gone through sufficient discussion within the IPPM WG and has working group consensus to publish. There was no particular controversy during the WG process. Document Quality The document has been a WG document for almost one year. It has been reviewed by the community within the IPPM WG and gone through several updates. There was quite a bit of work in Last Call on the error cases. Personnel The shepherd is Yali Wang. The Responsible AD is Martin Duke. The registry in this document uses First Come First Served and IETF Review policies, so no Designated Expert is required. From nobody Sun Nov 15 21:29:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E0513A135F for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 21:29:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.089 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.089 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=futurewei.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PCN-_eEEV19T for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 21:29:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM04-SN1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr700115.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.70.115]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F3B23A135B for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 21:29:15 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=HssDNDPxVKp2VV2NzzJSNcK4xgPy7wNz2H0mFXIyQVddHBvlgi3BdGh5lPQszvGcQlV4/9V/G5pbko3xGKvlkSYK8k9rmL9nJTIpArm94tngnIg8lv5Ii0DDrDK53TZyUKPGXnM0K1RhmonPMSZNrcRaNsZ/vSAurhMGUu/qLzvKidonc4hcpwg4j6F7KC4ttKpkpwUv2n+f+05gVm3JVl1FZqV9G4uGPHT9tL7U0fcTM/UsteeRPbf/zFknVGpRwZ61wyXMr8Io2qIw1xTAz9OV9mJSM2PIzimjzxzjHk8FiOOnvvIowdFDq8T7fj8Hl1oBPS3QElStebp3QNHFyQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=+h7SUBzVLKWbRBU82Mrw2LJAxBYMO9xjk46hhp0vR+0=; b=TNzNQ3anwdWALUVev2oM2MB9WXtsZXuvsbii5dV7a/ZcoTbCkQcoFDmQl2/PljZ80acaduvEeHZ6qLuqB53syEJDHb5hz/Ram/8E+vsimzKVIzKmsv7ROVDybHkUrdwLRNg/qsCLMunY+JiqQZgzoiWp00mRx3dIdwi12WeV8RT06XQxj+6IE+Sv1G3CRpvIDH7vgeM2rg2rb7WM2//eFlad8Ztd63zqb1boZ7EZzb54jW7VgCBNwhM/m40hTriAfbzE4PvI1ybTcOhJRXVFB0OT+nadij8dq6Ygt2+4SDEgmfM5zgdybXwYANBQv6248HRAkXgS31aYpl9aGCGQqA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=futurewei.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=futurewei.com; dkim=pass header.d=futurewei.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=Futurewei.com; s=selector2; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=+h7SUBzVLKWbRBU82Mrw2LJAxBYMO9xjk46hhp0vR+0=; b=p2bxwfGahq6wYKU9g1HEhx5ZePhb33VqnJHhaj/rDB14jMGbaI87dYh+ld9oUEtCU/c/mlj495TGKzL3KFPYGmcl9tCFrRkd2Q5mUZQkScUh5h8g73gv3QSLf8mGmoD+pAgNH/VTKrO9senHUZR2y9TGY/pCKqRtWswIG1PI3PQ= Received: from SN6PR13MB2334.namprd13.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:805:55::16) by SA0PR13MB3983.namprd13.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:806:9a::9) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3589.16; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 05:29:13 +0000 Received: from SN6PR13MB2334.namprd13.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::8c05:b4f5:cc16:eeb]) by SN6PR13MB2334.namprd13.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::8c05:b4f5:cc16:eeb%7]) with mapi id 15.20.3564.021; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 05:29:13 +0000 From: Linda Dunbar To: IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: is it within IPPM scope to discuss Load Measurement and site preference of App Servers using ANYCAST? 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X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 05:29:18 -0000 --_000_SN6PR13MB2334F36697BBB8BA8E33B05E85E30SN6PR13MB2334namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IPPM experts, Network delay, jitter, bandwidth are common network layer measurements. In = 5G Edge Computing environment, one Application can have multiple Applicatio= n Servers hosted in different Edge Computing data centers that are close in= proximity. Those Edge Computing (mini) data centers are usually very close= to, or co-located with, 5G base stations, with the goal to minimize latenc= y and optimize the user experience. Increasingly, Anycast is used for App S= ervers to dynamically load balance across multiple locations of the same ad= dress based on network conditions. Using Anycast address leverages the pro= ximity information present in the network (routing) layer and eliminates th= e single point of failure and bottleneck at the DNS resolvers and applicati= on layer load balancers, in addition to removing the dependency on UEs th= at use their cached IP addresses instead of querying DNS when they move to = a new location. But simply based on network condition is not enough, as some locations have= higher capacity or more preferences for a special User Equipment. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dunbar-ippm-5g-edge-compute-ip-layer= -metrics/ introduce the additional IP Layer Metrics to achieve optimized fo= rwarding to servers using ANYCAST. is it within IPPM scope to discuss Load Measurement and site preference of = App Servers using ANYCAST? Appreciate your feedback. Thank you Linda Dunbar --_000_SN6PR13MB2334F36697BBB8BA8E33B05E85E30SN6PR13MB2334namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    IPPM experts,

     

    Network delay, jitter, bandwidth are common network = layer measurements. In 5G Edge Computing environment, one Application can h= ave multiple Application Servers hosted in different Edge Computing data ce= nters that are close in proximity. Those Edge Computing (mini) data centers are usually very close to, or co-= located with, 5G base stations, with the goal to minimize latency and optim= ize the user experience. Increasingly, Anycast is used for App Servers to d= ynamically load balance across multiple locations of the same address based on network conditions.  Using Any= cast address leverages the proximity information present in the network (ro= uting) layer and eliminates the single point of failure and bottleneck at t= he DNS resolvers and application layer load balancers,  in addition to  removing the dependency on UEs = that use their cached IP addresses instead of querying DNS when they move t= o a new location.

     

    But simply based on network condition is not enough,= as some locations have higher capacity or more preferences for a special U= ser Equipment.

     

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/d= oc/draft-dunbar-ippm-5g-edge-compute-ip-layer-metrics/ introduce the ad= ditional IP Layer Metrics to achieve optimized forwarding to servers using ANYCAST.

     

    is it within IPPM scope to discuss Load Measurement = and site preference of App Servers using ANYCAST?

     

    Appreciate your feedback.

     

    Thank you

    Linda Dunbar

    --_000_SN6PR13MB2334F36697BBB8BA8E33B05E85E30SN6PR13MB2334namp_-- From nobody Sun Nov 15 21:45:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDBE13A138B for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 21:45:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AIjD2IVfmUfk for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 21:45:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x129.google.com (mail-il1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A3923A138A for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 21:45:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x129.google.com with SMTP id n5so14028104ile.7 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 21:45:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=wDMKxS6bIL8QHOPhFpydhjjZzg6hlAxxCZTgi0p+Q9I=; b=lsdyVtSTN6JxQy5fPcoKGzpZ/j4nzfvE5vFUeiZYu69hyb6wopRZ1w1dNIRdpHkO97 j/tHQbGp2FAUglr78TE158VLO3yhxDl4U6hHw8vIin+GTKf2i+qhUY+5J5jD0Q1l1CtZ L8C+mBY8/bGDuMqOz91fxLPHYjLO+/NCSbhZhB4clal4o0WXN93dZ7m9Q7pBw5bBzVp8 Ya0ooYw1NaYDNba8p/BuVc3w2tj6DD4wXKLIUy2vxLHb62jc17N8syXgcqkYz32zOHos dmjj8I5W3S8yYUHttIi6jhyyuBA72cCwNmf7p6OOsNYj75EPTX9c2c9W9jtVF5kNPEv/ DxKQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=wDMKxS6bIL8QHOPhFpydhjjZzg6hlAxxCZTgi0p+Q9I=; b=DcTuTGK1WaApqrtKayte4Y54wt121pj6wCd34JX72L+H/BshPFl0LbAf9y9yS3oLwI NrcS941UYf4xvCriRdDjA+8YpKwsB69+Z0kYvOVzLm5SNalBj1AF3e8X2sz+dVBDKNMu /c6enVicAwmAiJnnToogkwQpuHwIzrx/KmEwjCto+qfA/DE0y6+U3LS/i4juNdW7+mLc Wb/e0cuyHoRZk6Sq36hzhPVUEWDckl99ebTk3HkBPHcYzoGjLu5Wrop0duHjTApdR+PV G1NUrsabE74rIijJVspPNagNUXiRYSMBX1n8MCYaeUsrEJdvdYVVMV2pgn23KEU0nYB6 WjCQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5305udnbbwEkuvO6q3W31h8crvF3LijEVoVgDhxrKOtWuWaNOSJz 9OsGK7Hz8JerRJyJ43aacsCEfiIg4ReaKaZ+HuP17Jh8ulw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyuZB3+jSv9heUhJvuB7xFRFa7DEVJsQKr5vD5JtD9TwCWiE+Ettb8TsuuJgbIgwaps2XUn/ZJN7LH8tpfanYY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:1151:: with SMTP id o17mr7154115ill.303.1605505508314; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 21:45:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Martin Duke Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 21:45:04 -0800 Message-ID: To: IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000082146105b432e10c" Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Is loopback/direct export amplification worse than linear? X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 05:45:14 -0000 --00000000000082146105b432e10c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I recognize that the loopback and direct export drafts discuss potential amplification results, as a path of length N will generate N packets for each IOAM packet -- a linear relationship. As these are discussed in the draft with proposed mitigation, in an editorial sense the job is done. Whether giving people this kind of foot gun is a good idea is a separate question, but reasonable people can disagree. However, if I understand correctly, certain pathological combinations of IOAM namespaces could result in amplification far worse than linear. 1) Loopback loops Imagine there is an IOAM namespace that covers the path from Hop A to Hop D. There is a separate namespace entirely contained in A-D, from hop B from hop C. Both namespaces enable loopback. A --------------------------------------------------------D B-------------------------------C So a user packet is traveling from A to D. There will be (D-A) loopback packets headed towards A. The (D - C) loopback packets that generated between C and D will travel through the encapsulating node at C and then trigger further loopbacks to C. Thus the total number of packets generated by the single user packet is (D - A) + (D - C)(C - B) and obviousy there could be several of these smaller namespaces, or nested namespaces, that aggravate the amplification further. 2) Direct Export Direct Export potentially has even worse properties. Suppose namespace A, N_A hops across, direct exports to a node that is reachable across namespace B. Namespace B, N_B hops across, direct exports to a node reachable across namespace A. Thus a single user packet sent over namespace A will generate N_A packets that traverse Namespace B. This will, in turn, generate N_A * N_B packets that traverse namespace A, which in turn triggers N_A ^ 2 * N_B packets, and so on. In fact, if the namespaces direct export with probability exactly,1/N_A and 1/N_B, the same level of traffic will ping-pong infinitely. Any more than that, and the traffic will steadily increase to infinity. If the probability is 1, the growth is exponential. **************** This analysis, if correct, raises three questions that I can think of: - Are these corner cases plausible? - If so, and they occurred, would the namespace administrators necessarily be aware of each other? If not, I'm concerned that this is unsafe to deploy. - Do phenomena like this indicate that the design is brittle and putting in some "considerations" doesn't really mitigate the dangers here? Martin --00000000000082146105b432e10c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I recognize that the loopback and direct export drafts dis= cuss potential amplification results, as a path of length N will generate N= packets for each IOAM packet -- a linear relationship. As these are discus= sed in the draft with proposed=C2=A0mitigation, in an editorial sense the j= ob is done. Whether giving people this kind of foot gun is a good idea is a= separate question, but reasonable people can disagree.

    = However, if I understand correctly, certain pathological combinations of IO= AM namespaces could=C2=A0result in amplification far worse=C2=A0than linear= .

    1) Loopback loops
    Imagine there is an = IOAM namespace that covers the path from Hop A to Hop D. There is a separat= e namespace entirely contained in A-D, from hop B from hop C. Both namespac= es enable loopback.
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A ---------------------= -----------------------------------D
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0B---------------= ----------------C

    So a user packet is traveling fr= om A to D. There will be (D-A) loopback packets headed towards A. The (D - = C) loopback packets that generated between C and D will travel through the = encapsulating=C2=A0node at C and then trigger further loopbacks to C. Thus = the total number of packets generated by the single user packet is
    (D - A)=C2=A0+ (D - C)(C - B)
    and obviousy there could be sever= al of these smaller namespaces, or nested namespaces, that aggravate the am= plification further.

    2) Direct Export
    Di= rect Export potentially has even worse properties. Suppose namespace A, N_A= hops across, direct exports to a node that is reachable across namespace B= . Namespace B, N_B hops across, direct exports to a node reachable across n= amespace A.

    Thus a single user packet sent over na= mespace A will generate N_A packets that traverse Namespace B. This will, i= n turn, generate N_A * N_B packets that traverse namespace A, which in turn= triggers N_A ^ 2 * N_B packets, and so on.

    In fac= t, if the namespaces direct export with probability exactly,1/N_A and 1/N_B= , the same level of traffic will ping-pong infinitely. Any more than that, = and the traffic will steadily increase to infinity. If the probability is 1= , the growth is exponential.

    ****************

    This analysis, if correct, raises three questions that= I can think of:
    - Are these corner cases plausible?
    - = If so, and they occurred, would the namespace administrators necessarily be= aware of each other? If not, I'm concerned that this is unsafe to depl= oy.
    - Do phenomena like this indicate that the design is brittle = and putting in some "considerations" doesn't really mitigate = the dangers here?

    Martin

    =


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Mon, 16 Nov 2020 06:07:20 +0000 From: "Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi)" To: Greg Mirsky CC: Tommy Pauly , IPPM Chairs , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Thread-Index: AQHWrutqxCpe6zKAOkqELdQ0D7z91KnAEieAgAGGXIqABKdzAIAEHsI6 Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 06:07:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-CA, en-US Content-Language: en-CA X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2607:fea8:e29f:f9f0:ac72:5cc1:f97e:6ccf] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 6d225b62-a038-4330-1a4e-08d889f5e0b1 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM5PR11MB1721: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:7219; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: H4gEUxRXhJs+QIhsdN3h9wBm/C7q8RJ8jAgJ1M9aAiQoux4W6v1Cv1b9YfVLIxtYEzqcYEePQ5NePQsXiSIF0i+pSvLryDBZo4MwOecWFcIHiANB2YEzwJ5bMgrkAp28yVcR5oRH9TSv4m/t0/Mt7hTjX8844bCrtMdjWzbBAqsjvbqTPpNYs7CvOniJJIAPAe9V9b6O4l1AXEZfk7VLIMEXFfsF1Zfpm7ZZdT6ydFytMi5XRfgJ84bblBTJK6BfjCX6J08lWSqGu7VqSZMmUe5AP2KL3nS7RZu11jN9+qFl+jVjJu81h/hRQQm8/eqPLFTd4tqeWLPlaWlLNxLs75Qf6bO0mv/2AW5WyDyvdTBiGcIbUBzQpMdpzuzTK0AMgMPYm6xMg636Oz7IvdkkDw== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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boundary="_005_DM6PR11MB31150EF1191D8B502263395BBFE30DM6PR11MB3115namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR11MB3115.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6d225b62-a038-4330-1a4e-08d889f5e0b1 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Nov 2020 06:07:20.1607 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 4LTWdCyqu0zOBnP5XNzwuQfwZ3P6aDRKFYv7uXlAkjp2sLiPN5od1JnwIRVrT8skNcYFoBjKL1uxOEB8lIeKXw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR11MB1721 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.14, xch-aln-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 06:07:29 -0000 --_005_DM6PR11MB31150EF1191D8B502263395BBFE30DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DM6PR11MB31150EF1191D8B502263395BBFE30DM6PR11MB3115namp_" --_000_DM6PR11MB31150EF1191D8B502263395BBFE30DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Greg, Thank you for your review comments. As mentioned in the IPPM session today,= the email response was sent as attachments, see archive blow: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/J503n-B2yOxF0urcHtGQKnqCRDE/ I am attaching them in word documents for the convenience. We can address y= our comments below in the next revision of the document. Thanks, Rakesh From: Greg Mirsky Date: Friday, November 13, 2020 at 10:09 AM To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) Cc: Tommy Pauly , IPPM Chairs , spring-chairs@ietf.org , IETF IPPM = WG (ippm@ietf.org) Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Rakesh, thank you for your response to my review. Please find my follow-up notes in= -lined below under the GIM>> tag. I hope you've found more detailed comments in the attachments (re-attached = for your convenience). I'm looking forward to reading your responses to the= detailed comments of all four drafts. Regards, Greg On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:11 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > wrote: Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and p= roviding the comments. Attached please find the email replies to your revi= ew sent earlier. The replies are copied inline below for convenience, tagg= ed with . From: ippm > Date: Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM To: Tommy Pauly > Cc: IPPM Chairs >, spring= -chairs@ietf.org >, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG community, I've reviewed these drafts and have some comments to share. Below, please f= ind my thoughts on whether these drafts can be adopted. More specific comme= nts on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft and its a= ccompanying draft targetted to the SPRING WG) are in the attached documents= . Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluated by answers= to these three questions: =95 Is the document(s) reasonably well-written I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology from RFCs 4656= /5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender = and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", ar= e used in the documents without proper definitions. Other than that both dr= afts are readable and reasonably well-written. We can change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Refl= ector if it helps. GIM>> I believe that the consistency in terminology between the core RFC an= d what is intended as its extension is not only helpful to a reader but, to= the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications. There are many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340= , 8330, etc.) and term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without definin= g them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having said tha= t, we can add a reference for them if it helps. GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. I think I need to clarify my questi= ons. While a reference to any of RFCs you've mentioned, I don't think that = will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitalized while= referenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can these be= used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object? Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using the term "congruent path" = in these drafts (using ASCII-art): C---------D / \ A----B E-----F \ / G------------H Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the network as A-B-C-D-E-F= . From the definition of "congruent" as "two figures or objects are congrue= nt if they have the same shape and size, or if one has the same shape and s= ize as the mirror image of the other", path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to the= SR tunnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to monitor a flow over t= he SR tunnel is out-of-band and will not produce any meaningful measurement= . Of course, for the case of the extensions in drafts, direct loss measurem= ent can be performed, as information collected from node F. So, this exampl= e, in my opinion, illustrates two of my concerns: * using a congruent path for an active OAM protocol may produce informa= tion that does not reflect the condition experienced by the monitored flow.= It seems that the terminology should reflect the fundamental requirement f= or using active OAM to maintain the test packets in-band with the monitored= flow. * there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band active O= AM protocol for direct packet loss measurement. As demonstrated in this exa= mple, direct packet loss can be performed using an out-of-band mechanism, e= .g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG data model. =95 Does the document solve a real problem? No, it appears that both TWAMP and STAMP drafts define a new performance = measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/TWAMP and STAMP fun= ctionality in the respective drafts, and adding the ability to collect coun= ters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find sufficient technical argument= s for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing O= AM mechanisms like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884. There is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as synth= etic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWA= MP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packet= loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a good opti= on here. GIM>> I agree with the requirements you've listed (though the SPRING WG OAM= requirements document has been abandoned and expired 3+ years ago). I believe th= at there's no sufficient technical reason to use OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for excl= usive direct packet loss measurement. =95 Is the proposed solution technically viable? There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced by= the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the propose= d solutions. About your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security s= ection in RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Secti= on as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in th= e domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other than this, I did n= ot find any other security related issue in your review. GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference sufficiently explains why the use= of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, does not create a = security risk for the protocol. Thanks, Rakesh Regards, Greg On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly > wrote: Hello IPPM, For the past few meetings, we=92ve had updates on the work in the SPRING WG= that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making exte= nsions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it= would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in = the IPPM WG. As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption for draft-gandhi= -ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. The documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 The related SPRING documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether or not y= ou believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Pl= ease provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mo= nday, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --_000_DM6PR11MB31150EF1191D8B502263395BBFE30DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hi Greg,

     

    Thank you for your review comments. As mentioned in = the IPPM session today, the email response was sent as attachments, see arc= hive blow:

    https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/= J503n-B2yOxF0urcHtGQKnqCRDE/

     

    I am attaching them in word documents for the conven= ience. We can address your comments below in the next revision of the docum= ent.

     

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

     

     

    From: Greg Mirsky <gre= gimirsky@gmail.com>
    Date: Friday, November 13, 2020 at 10:09 AM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com>
    Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IPPM Ch= airs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org <spring-chairs= @ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi Rakesh,

    thank you for your response to my review. Please fin= d my follow-up notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.

    I hope you've found more detailed comments in the at= tachments (re-attached for your convenience). I'm looking forward to readin= g your responses to the detailed comments of all four drafts.

     

    Regards,

    Greg

     

    On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:11 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgand= hi) <rgandhi@cisco.com> wrot= e:

    Thank you Greg for taking time for t= horoughly reviewing the documents and providing the comments.  Attache= d please find the email replies to your review sent earlier.  The replies are copied inline below for convenience, t= agged with <RG00>.

     

     

    From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org&= gt;
    Date: Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM
    To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@i= etf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG community,

    I've reviewed these drafts and have some comments to share. Below,= please find my thoughts on whether these drafts can be adopted. More speci= fic comments on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft and its accompanying draft tar= getted to the SPRING WG) are in the attached documents.

     

    Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluat= ed by answers to these three questions:

    =B7  Is the document(s) reasonably well-written

    I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology f= rom RFCs 4656/5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms= , e.g., Links, "congruent paths", are used in the documents witho= ut proper definitions. Other than that both drafts are readable and reasona= bly well-written.

     

    <RG00> We can change Sender to= Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Reflector if it helps. 

    GIM>> I believe that the consistency in termin= ology between the core RFC and what is intended as its extension is not onl= y helpful to a reader but, to the best of my understanding, is required for= IETF specifications.

    <RG00> There are many existing= RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340, 8330, etc.) and term Congrue= nt Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without defining them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having said that= , we can add a reference for them if it helps.

    GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. I thin= k I need to clarify my questions. While a reference to any of RFCs you've m= entioned, I don't think that will address my concern. In reviewed documents= , "Link" is capitalized while referenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can these be = used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object?<= /p>

    Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using the= term "congruent path" in these drafts (using ASCII-art):

                  &nb= sp;        C---------D

                  &nb= sp;      /              &= nbsp;  \

                A----B&nbs= p;                  E-----F

                  &nb= sp;      \              &= nbsp;   /

                  &nb= sp;      G------------H

    Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the= network as A-B-C-D-E-F. From the definition of "congruent" as &q= uot;two figures or objects are congruent if they have the same shape and si= ze, or if one has the same shape and size as the mirror image of the other", path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to the SR t= unnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to monitor a flow over the SR= tunnel is out-of-band and will not produce any meaningful measurement. Of = course, for the case of the extensions in drafts, direct loss measurement can be performed, as information collec= ted from node F. So, this example, in my opinion, illustrates two of my con= cerns:

    • using a congruent path for an active OAM protocol may produce information t= hat does not reflect the condition experienced by the monitored flow. It se= ems that the terminology should reflect the fundamental requirement for usi= ng active OAM to maintain the test packets in-band with the monitored flow.
    • there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band active OAM pro= tocol for direct packet loss measurement. As demonstrated in this example, = direct packet loss can be performed using an out-of-band mechanism, e.g., S= NMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG data model.

     

    =B7  Does the document solve a real problem?

    No, it appears that  both TWAMP and STAMP drafts  d= efine a new performance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/= TWAMP and STAMP functionality in the respective drafts, and adding the abil= ity to collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find = sufficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing OAM mechanisms= like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884.

     

    <RG00> There is a requirement = to measure performance delay as well as synthetic and direct-mode packet lo= ss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packet l= oss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a good option= here.

    GIM>> I agree with the requirements you'v= e listed (though the SPRING WG OAM requirements document has been abandoned and expired= 3+ years ago). I believe that there's no sufficient technical reason = to use OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for exclusive direct packet loss measurement. 

     

    =B7  Is the proposed solution technically viable?

    There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk = introduced by the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the proposed solutions.

     

    <RG00> About your comment on z= ero checksum, this is described in Security section in RFC 6936. We will ad= d reference to this RFC in our Security Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in the = domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other than this, I did not= find any other security related issue in your review.

    GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference suff= iciently explains why the use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not de= cremental, does not create a security risk for the protocol.

     

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

     

     

    Regards,

    Greg

     

     

     

     

    On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.= ietf.org> wrote:

    Hello IPPM,

     

    For the past few meetings, we=92ve had updates on the work in the = SPRING WG that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up ma= king extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it would be best to split the d= ocuments and track the IPPM extension work in the IPPM WG.

     

    As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption for&nbs= p;draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm.=

     

    Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether= or not you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this = email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Monday, November 16.<= o:p>

     

    Best,

    Tommy & Ian

    _______________________________________________
    ippm mailing list
    ippm@ietf.org
    ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

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--_005_DM6PR11MB31150EF1191D8B502263395BBFE30DM6PR11MB3115namp_-- From nobody Sun Nov 15 22:11:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 253623A13EB; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 22:11:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lolfgayK3Ck8; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 22:11:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from 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To: "Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi)" Cc: Tommy Pauly , IPPM Chairs , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000031c42a05b4333dc9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 06:11:32 -0000 --00000000000031c42a05b4333dc9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Rakesh, thank you for your prompt response, much appreciated. I'll carefully read your responses. Looking forward to the continued discussion. Regards, Greg On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:07 PM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) wrote: > Hi Greg, > > > > Thank you for your review comments. As mentioned in the IPPM session > today, the email response was sent as attachments, see archive blow: > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/J503n-B2yOxF0urcHtGQKnqCRDE/ > > > > I am attaching them in word documents for the convenience. We can address > your comments below in the next revision of the document. > > > > Thanks, > > Rakesh > > > > > > *From: *Greg Mirsky > *Date: *Friday, November 13, 2020 at 10:09 AM > *To: *Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > *Cc: *Tommy Pauly , IPPM Chairs < > ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org , > IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > *Subject: *Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and > draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm > > Hi Rakesh, > > thank you for your response to my review. Please find my follow-up notes > in-lined below under the GIM>> tag. > > I hope you've found more detailed comments in the attachments (re-attache= d > for your convenience). I'm looking forward to reading your responses to t= he > detailed comments of all four drafts. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:11 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > wrote: > > Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and > providing the comments. Attached please find the email replies to your > review sent earlier. The replies are copied inline below for convenience= , > tagged with . > > > > > > *From: *ippm > *Date: *Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM > *To: *Tommy Pauly > *Cc: *IPPM Chairs , spring-chairs@ietf.org < > spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > *Subject: *Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and > draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm > > Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG community, > > I've reviewed these drafts and have some comments to share. Below, please > find my thoughts on whether these drafts can be adopted. More specific > comments on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft an= d > its accompanying draft targetted to the SPRING WG) are in the attached > documents. > > > > Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluated by > answers to these three questions: > > =C2=B7 Is the document(s) reasonably well-written > > I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology from RFCs > 4656/5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for > Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, > "congruent paths", are used in the documents without proper definitions. > Other than that both drafts are readable and reasonably well-written. > > > > We can change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to > Session-Reflector if it helps. > > GIM>> I believe that the consistency in terminology between the core RFC > and what is intended as its extension is not only helpful to a reader but= , > to the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications. > > There are many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, > 5340, 8330, etc.) and term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without > defining them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having > said that, we can add a reference for them if it helps. > > GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. I think I need to clarify my > questions. While a reference to any of RFCs you've mentioned, I don't thi= nk > that will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitalize= d > while referenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can > these be used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object? > > Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using the term "congruent path= " > in these drafts (using ASCII-art): > > C---------D > > / \ > > A----B E-----F > > \ / > > G------------H > > Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the network as > A-B-C-D-E-F. From the definition of "congruent" as "two figures or object= s > are congruent if they have the same shape and size, or if one has the sam= e > shape and size as the mirror image of the other", path A-B-G-H-E-F is > congruent to the SR tunnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to > monitor a flow over the SR tunnel is out-of-band and will not produce any > meaningful measurement. Of course, for the case of the extensions in > drafts, direct loss measurement can be performed, as information collecte= d > from node F. So, this example, in my opinion, illustrates two of my > concerns: > > - using a congruent path for an active OAM protocol may produce > information that does not reflect the condition experienced by the > monitored flow. It seems that the terminology should reflect the > fundamental requirement for using active OAM to maintain the test pack= ets > in-band with the monitored flow. > - there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band active > OAM protocol for direct packet loss measurement. As demonstrated in th= is > example, direct packet loss can be performed using an out-of-band > mechanism, e.g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG dat= a > model. > > > > =C2=B7 Does the document solve a real problem? > > No, it appears that both TWAMP and STAMP drafts define a new > performance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/TWAMP > and STAMP functionality in the respective drafts, and adding the ability = to > collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find sufficient > technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, > extending the existing OAM mechanisms like ICMP multi-part message > extension per RFC 4884. > > > > There is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as > synthetic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP > and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthet= ic > packet loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a > good option here. > > GIM>> I agree with the requirements you've listed (though the SPRING WG > OAM requirements document > has > been abandoned and expired 3+ years ago). I believe that there's no > sufficient technical reason to use OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for exclusive direct > packet loss measurement. > > > > =C2=B7 Is the proposed solution technically viable? > > There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced > by the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the > proposed solutions. > > > > About your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security > section in RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security > Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisione= d > in the domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other than this, = I > did not find any other security related issue in your review. > > GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference sufficiently explains why the > use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, does not crea= te > a security risk for the protocol. > > > > Thanks, > > Rakesh > > > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly 40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Hello IPPM, > > > > For the past few meetings, we=E2=80=99ve had updates on the work in the S= PRING WG > that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making > extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided > that it would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension > work in the IPPM WG. > > > > As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption > for draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. > > > > The documents are here: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 > > > The related SPRING documents are here: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 > > > > Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether or not > you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. > Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, o= n *Monday, > November 16*. > > > > Best, > > Tommy & Ian > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > --00000000000031c42a05b4333dc9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Rakesh,
    thank you for your prompt response,=C2=A0mu= ch appreciated. I'll carefully read your responses. Looking forward to = the continued discussion.

    Regards,
    Greg<= /div>

    On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:07 PM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com> wrote:

    Hi Greg,

    =C2=A0

    Thank you for your review comments. As mentioned in = the IPPM session today, the email response was sent as attachments, see arc= hive blow:

    https://mailarchive.ietf.= org/arch/msg/ippm/J503n-B2yOxF0urcHtGQKnqCRDE/

    =C2=A0

    I am attaching them in word documents for the conven= ience. We can address your comments below in the next revision of the docum= ent.

    =C2=A0

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com= >
    Date: Friday, November 13, 2020 at 10:09 AM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com>
    Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IPPM Chairs &l= t;ippm-chairs@iet= f.org>, = spring-chairs@ietf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi Rakesh,

    thank you for your response to my review. Please fin= d my follow-up notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.

    I hope you've found more detailed comments in th= e attachments (re-attached for your convenience). I'm looking forward t= o reading your responses=C2=A0to the detailed comments of all four drafts.<= u>

    =C2=A0

    Regards,

    Greg

    =C2=A0

    On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:11 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgand= hi) <rgandhi@cisc= o.com> wrote:

    Thank you Greg = for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and providing the co= mments.=C2=A0 Attached please find the email replies to your review sent earlier.=C2=A0 The replies are copied inline below for convenience, t= agged with <RG00>.

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org>= ;
    Date: Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM
    To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@i= etf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG community,

    I've reviewed these drafts and have some comment= s to share. Below, please find my thoughts on whether these drafts can be a= dopted. More specific comments on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft and its accompanying=C2=A0draft tar= getted=C2=A0to the SPRING WG) are in the attached documents.<= /p>

    =C2=A0

    Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document ca= n be evaluated=C2=A0by answers to these three questions:

    =C2=B7=C2=A0 Is the document(s) reasonably well-written

    I've got surprised that the drafts don't u= se the terminology from RFCs 4656/5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms= , e.g., Links, "congruent paths", are used in the documents witho= ut proper definitions. Other than that both drafts are readable and reasona= bly well-written.

    =C2=A0

    <RG00> We= can change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Reflector if = it helps.=C2=A0

    GIM>> I believe that the consistency in termin= ology between the core RFC and what is intended as its extension is not onl= y helpful to a reader but, to the best of my understanding, is required for= IETF specifications.

    <RG00> Th= ere are many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340, 8330, e= tc.) and term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without defining them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having said that= , we can add a reference for them if it helps.

    GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. I thin= k I need to clarify my questions. While a reference to any of RFCs you'= ve mentioned, I don't think that will address my concern. In reviewed d= ocuments, "Link" is capitalized while referenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can these be = used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object?

    Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using= the term "congruent path" in these drafts (using ASCII-art):<= /u>

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0C---------D

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0\

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A----B=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0E-----F

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0\=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0G------------H

    Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the= network as A-B-C-D-E-F. From the definition of "congruent" as &q= uot;two figures or objects are congruent if they have the same shape and si= ze, or if one has the same shape and size as the mirror image of the other", path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to the SR t= unnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to monitor a flow over the SR= tunnel is out-of-band and will not produce any meaningful measurement. Of = course, for the case of the extensions in drafts, direct loss measurement can be performed, as information collec= ted from node F. So, this example, in my opinion, illustrates two of my con= cerns:

    • using a congruent path for an active OAM protocol may produce information t= hat does not reflect the condition experienced by the monitored flow. It se= ems that the terminology should reflect the fundamental requirement for usi= ng active OAM to maintain the test packets in-band with the monitored flow.
    • there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band active OAM pro= tocol for direct packet loss measurement. As demonstrated in this example, = direct packet loss can be performed using an out-of-band mechanism, e.g., S= NMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG data model.

    =C2=A0

    =C2=B7=C2=A0 Does the document solve a real problem?

    No, it appears that=C2=A0 both TWAMP and STAMP drafts=C2=A0=C2=A0define a new performance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/= TWAMP and STAMP functionality in the respective drafts, and adding the abil= ity to collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't f= ind sufficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing OAM mechanisms= like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884.<= /p>

    =C2=A0

    <RG00> Th= ere is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as synthetic and = direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packet l= oss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a good option= here.

    GIM>> I agree with the=C2=A0requirements you&#= 39;ve listed (though the SPRING WG OAM requirements document has been aba= ndoned and expired 3+ years ago). I believe that there's no sufficient = technical reason=C2=A0to use OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for exclusive direct packet loss measurement.=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    =C2=B7=C2=A0 Is the proposed solution technically viable?<= /p>

    There are too many unaddressed aspects, particular= ly the risk introduced by the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the proposed solutions.

    =C2=A0

    <RG00> Ab= out your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security section in= RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in the = domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other than this, I did not= find any other security related issue in your review.=

    GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference = sufficiently explains why the use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is no= t decremental, does not create a security risk for the protocol.<= /u>

    =C2=A0

    Thanks,<= u>

    Rakesh

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    Regards,

    Greg

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly <tpa= uly=3D40app= le.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

    Hello IPPM,

    =C2=A0

    For the past few meetings, we=E2=80=99ve had updates= on the work in the SPRING WG that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those d= ocuments ended up making extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it would be best to split the d= ocuments and track the IPPM extension work in the IPPM WG.

    =C2=A0

    As such, we are starting a Working Group call for ad= option for=C2=A0draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-sr= pm.

    =C2=A0

    Please provide your feedback on these documents, and= state whether or not you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by rep= lying to this email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Monday, November 16.<= u>

    =C2=A0

    Best,

    Tommy & Ian

    _______________________________________________
    ippm mailing list
    ippm@ietf.org
    ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

    --00000000000031c42a05b4333dc9-- From nobody Sun Nov 15 23:00:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3BC13A146F; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 23:00:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EMILhKK5pIdM; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 23:00:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from cnet.fi.uba.ar (cnet.fi.uba.ar [157.92.58.2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11D953A146E; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 23:00:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cnet.fi.uba.ar (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50249140077; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 04:00:21 -0300 (ART) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at cnet.fi.uba.ar Received: from cnet.fi.uba.ar ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (cnet.fi.uba.ar [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1FofG2OzrEBo; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 04:00:15 -0300 (ART) Received: from [192.168.0.13] (unknown [181.46.139.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by cnet.fi.uba.ar (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A50C4140068; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 04:00:15 -0300 (ART) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 03:59:57 -0300 Cc: ippm-chairs@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <30B64F4F-6947-4ACB-8717-BF32143241EE@cnet.fi.uba.ar> References: <159376413634.18432.970239984476460419@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 07:00:28 -0000 Dear Ruediger, It is an excellent proposition that I saw in the papers some time ago. = Network tomography is somehow complicated because it would like, if I = understand correctly, to measure different paths and characteristics = with a minimum of paths. Could you consider to include some technique to = compute these paths? I know that isn't very easy, but it could be a = precious improvement. I know that is dependent on the topology, but = there are some excellent techniques to reduce the fraction of paths to = measure. I include a paper doing this through the reduction of the = number of paths (there are others): Lakhina A, Papagiannaki K, Crovella M, Diot C, Kolaczyk ED, Taft N. = Structural analysis of network traffic flows. In Proceedings of the = Joint International Conference on Measurement and Modeling of Computer = Systems 2004 Jun 1 (pp. 61-72). Perhaps you can cite this work as a possible method to compute that and = include some methodology about the selection on the end-points, which = leads to define the size of the problem and improve your proposition. = Why is the size important? Because you would like to use the minimum = number of testing paths to minimize the traffic and process them = quickly. Besides, this technique could be used in many cases, not just = in a particular topology. Eventually, I can help with this particular = point.=20 Best regards, J. Ignacio _______________________________________________________________ Dr. Ing. Jos=C3=A9 Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin CONICET and Facultad de Ingenier=C3=ADa, Universidad de Buenos Aires Av. Paseo Col=C3=B3n 850 - C1063ACV - Buenos Aires - Argentina +54 (11) 5285 0716 / 5285 0705 e-mail: ihameli@cnet.fi.uba.ar web: http://cnet.fi.uba.ar/ignacio.alvarez-hamelin/ _______________________________________________________________ > On 3 Jul 2020, at 05:41, Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de wrote: >=20 > Dear chairs, >=20 > draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring has been presented during the = IPPM IETF 107.=20 > The new version addresses the request to add information on = periodicity of the measurements.=20 > I've added text in section 3.8 "Reporting the metric". Minor changes = in the introduction aim > on better comprehensibility. >=20 > I don't participate at IETF 108 (online registration is charged this = time, bad for participants in vacation).=20 > I'd nevertheless ask for adoption as a WG doc (but that may also be = postponed until IETF 109, when > I will try to participate and present the draft). Comments on the = draft and your guidance regarding=20 > steps to adoption is welcome. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Ruediger >=20 > -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht----- > Von: internet-drafts@ietf.org =20 > Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Juli 2020 10:16 > An: Geib, R=C3=BCdiger > Betreff: New Version Notification for = draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03.txt >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03.txt > has been successfully submitted by Ruediger Geib and posted to the = IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring > Revision: 03 > Title: A Connectivity Monitoring Metric for IPPM > Document date: 2020-07-03 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 13 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitori= ng-03.txt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring/ > Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03 > Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitor= ing > Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitorin= g-03 >=20 > Abstract: > Within a Segment Routing domain, segment routed measurement packets > can be sent along pre-determined paths. This enables new kinds of > measurements. Connectivity monitoring allows to supervise the state > and performance of a connection or a (sub)path from one or a few > central monitoring systems. This document specifies a suitable > type-P connectivity monitoring metric. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From nobody Sun Nov 15 23:12:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BA9F3A14AC; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 23:12:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello IPPM, per what I mentioned during the IPPM WG meeting today, I don't think we sho= uld adopt the document before we have a couple of key questions resolved: * Why can't we use Netconf/YANG (with the existing capabilities discovery p= rocess - a la RFC 6241) to retrieve the IOAM capabilities of IOAM nodes? E.= g. the encapsulating node (as a NC client) could retrieve the IOAM capabili= ties from other IOAM nodes (acting as a NC server). Plus there is already = a YANG model in flight for IOAM (draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-08). At a minimu= m I would have expected that the draft discusses why NC/YANG is not suitabl= e for the scenario that the authors have in mind. The slides (https://datat= racker.ietf.org/meeting/109/materials/slides-109-ippm-echo-requestreply-for= -enabled-ioam-capabilities-00) that were presented in the IPPM WG meeting t= oday, mention "Changed from "IOAM Configuration Data" to "Enabled IOAM Capa= bilities" since the former is too associated with NETCONF/YANG." IMHO we ne= ed a bit more than just wordsmithing. * While the draft uses IOAM capabilities discovery as the use-case, in more= general terms, it proposes to add management/ops capabilities to echo-requ= est/reply protocols like ICMP, which is a much broader topic. The TLV struc= tures which are proposed to be added to echo-requests and echo-replies coul= d obviously be leveraged for other use-cases. Does the work really fit the = scope of the IPPM WG? Thanks, Frank From: ippm On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly Sent: Freitag, 30. Oktober 2020 19:46 To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Cc: IPPM Chairs Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state Hello IPPM, This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-xiao-ippm-ioa= m-conf-state. This document has been presented several times and discussed = within the working group in the context of our overall IOAM work. The document can be found here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state-07 Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mon= day, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian --_000_BYAPR11MB25847ACE60112CE82761253CDAE30BYAPR11MB2584namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hello IPPM,

     

    per what I mentioned during the IPPM WG meeting toda= y, I don’t think we should adopt the document before we have a couple= of key questions resolved:

     

    * Why can’t we use Netconf/YANG (with the exis= ting capabilities discovery process – a la RFC 6241) to retrieve the = IOAM capabilities of IOAM nodes? E.g. the encapsulating node (as a NC clien= t) could retrieve the IOAM capabilities from other IOAM nodes  (acting as a NC server). Plus there is already a YANG mod= el in flight for IOAM (draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-08). At a minimum I would = have expected that the draft discusses why NC/YANG is not suitable for the = scenario that the authors have in mind. The slides (https:/= /datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/materials/slides-109-ippm-echo-requestrep= ly-for-enabled-ioam-capabilities-00) that were presented in the IPPM WG meeting today, mention “Changed f= rom “IOAM Configuration Data” to “Enabled IOAM Capabiliti= es” since the former is too associated with NETCONF/YANG.” IMHO= we need a bit more than just wordsmithing.

     

    * While the draft uses IOAM capabilities discovery a= s the use-case, in more general terms, it proposes to add management/ops ca= pabilities to echo-request/reply protocols like ICMP, which is a much broad= er topic. The TLV structures which are proposed to be added to echo-requests and echo-replies could obviously= be leveraged for other use-cases. Does the work really fit the scope of th= e IPPM WG?

     

    Thanks, Frank

     

    From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> O= n Behalf Of Tommy Pauly
    Sent: Freitag, 30. Oktober 2020 19:46
    To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>
    Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state

     

    Hello IPPM,


    This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-xiao-ipp= m-ioam-conf-state. This document has been presented several times and discu= ssed within the working group in the context of our overall IOAM work.

    The document can be found here:

    https:= //tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state-07

    Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, o= n Monday, November 16.

    Best,
    Tommy & Ian

    --_000_BYAPR11MB25847ACE60112CE82761253CDAE30BYAPR11MB2584namp_-- From nobody Sun Nov 15 23:17:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E8B63A14C6; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 23:17:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I7B3UqLt9J83; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 23:17:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D48D73A14C5; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 23:17:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050096.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050096.ppops.net-00190b01. 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This work has been presented and well-received in multiple working groups (= quic, tsvwg, mops, maprg) as well as ippm during multiple previous IETF mee= tings. The present draft is a result of much feedback we received there. = Since the draft is ultimately about measurement techniques -- ippm's domain= -- we've called for its adoption today. Best, - Igor -----Original Message----- From: Bulgarella Fabio (Guest) =20 Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 5:45 AM To: IETF IPPM WG Cc: quic@ietf.org; Marcus Ihlar ; draft-mdt-ippm= -explicit-flow-measurements@ietf.org; emile.stephan@orange.com; Jari Arkko = Subject: I: New Version Notification for draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measu= rements-00.txt Dear IPPM WG, following up the discussion on the mailing list and in the previous meeting= (IETF 108), we merged the previous two drafts on explicit measures (draft-= ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits, draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) in t= he enclosed new document. The authors of the previous drafts and other contributors jointly worked on= this new revision in order to merge the content of the two drafts making a= unified explanation. A recap section has been added to give an immediate overview of the availab= le methodologies, for both delay and loss metrics, by using comparing table= s. If you want, you could also have a look at this new related IPPM draft http= s://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-cnbf-ippm-use= r-devices-explicit-monitoring-00.txt__;!!GjvTz_vk!Dw_7Wq42NUtivV0I3sp_4lfab= GH0G7qV7b-nmTVfu0Eg9qZyh7DL48pASuIRm3s$=20 Comments and suggestions are more than welcome. Best Regards, Fabio B. ________________________________________ Da: internet-drafts@ietf.org Inviato: luned=EC 2 novembre 2020 16:30 A: Riccardo Sisto; Giuseppe Fioccola; Bulgarella Fabio (Guest); Alexandre F= errieux; Isabelle Hamchaoui; Igor Lubashev; Cociglio Mauro; Dmitri Tikhonov= ; Nilo Massimo Oggetto: [EXT] New Version Notification for draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-me= asurements-00.txt A new version of I-D, draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Igor Lubashev and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements Revision: 00 Title: Explicit Flow Measurements Techniques Document date: 2020-11-02 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 38 URL: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/archive/id= /draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements-00.txt__;!!GjvTz_vk!Dw_7Wq42NUti= vV0I3sp_4lfabGH0G7qV7b-nmTVfu0Eg9qZyh7DL48pAUsWRr6Q$=20 Status: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/do= c/draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements/__;!!GjvTz_vk!Dw_7Wq42NUtivV0I3= sp_4lfabGH0G7qV7b-nmTVfu0Eg9qZyh7DL48pA-3p1zrE$=20 Html: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/archive/id= /draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements-00.html__;!!GjvTz_vk!Dw_7Wq42NUt= ivV0I3sp_4lfabGH0G7qV7b-nmTVfu0Eg9qZyh7DL48pAi9tD2Xc$=20 Htmlized: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tools.ietf.org/html/dra= ft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements-00__;!!GjvTz_vk!Dw_7Wq42NUtivV0I3sp_= 4lfabGH0G7qV7b-nmTVfu0Eg9qZyh7DL48pAR5iZens$=20 Abstract: This document describes protocol independent methods called Explicit Flow Measurement Techniques that employ few marking bits, inside the header of each packet, for loss and delay measurement. The endpoints, marking the traffic, signal these metrics to intermediate observers allowing them to measure connection performance, and to locate the network segment where impairments happen. Different alternatives are considered within this document. These signaling methods apply to all protocols but they are especially valuable when applied to protocols that encrypt transport header and do not allow traditional methods for delay and loss detection. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Sun Nov 15 23:51:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3335A3A151B; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 23:51:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cSjWLMRZMwfy; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 23:51:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B50C83A1520; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 23:51:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.200]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4CZLnZ4BMNz67DHb; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 15:49:38 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml791-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.12) by fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 08:51:24 +0100 Received: from fraeml791-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.12) by fraeml791-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 08:51:24 +0100 Received: from DGGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.39) by fraeml791-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.1913.5 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 08:51:24 +0100 Received: from DGGEML530-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.200]) by DGGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::b177:a243:7a69:5ab8%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 15:51:18 +0800 From: Mach Chen To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , "Tommy Pauly" , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" CC: IPPM Chairs Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state Thread-Index: AQHWru0ITQLu9MCbrk6V02e2GdWtH6nJ67yAgACPrdA= Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 07:51:17 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5E408E0E-862E-480B-88FD-890098340EBC@apple.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.140] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE297FBA27Ddggeml530mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 07:51:30 -0000 --_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE297FBA27Ddggeml530mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, As mentioned on the mic, I shared the similar concern on the second point. = Given the draft is going to define extensions to ICMP, MPLS echo/Request, I= MHO those parts should be defined in those relevant WGs (e.g, 6man, MPLS WG= ), at least those WGs should be involved in this discussion. Best regards, Mach From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Frank Brockners (fbr= ockne) Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 3:13 PM To: Tommy Pauly ; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@i= etf.org) Cc: IPPM Chairs Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state Hello IPPM, per what I mentioned during the IPPM WG meeting today, I don't think we sho= uld adopt the document before we have a couple of key questions resolved: * Why can't we use Netconf/YANG (with the existing capabilities discovery p= rocess - a la RFC 6241) to retrieve the IOAM capabilities of IOAM nodes? E.= g. the encapsulating node (as a NC client) could retrieve the IOAM capabili= ties from other IOAM nodes (acting as a NC server). Plus there is already = a YANG model in flight for IOAM (draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-08). At a minimu= m I would have expected that the draft discusses why NC/YANG is not suitabl= e for the scenario that the authors have in mind. The slides (https://datat= racker.ietf.org/meeting/109/materials/slides-109-ippm-echo-requestreply-for= -enabled-ioam-capabilities-00) that were presented in the IPPM WG meeting t= oday, mention "Changed from "IOAM Configuration Data" to "Enabled IOAM Capa= bilities" since the former is too associated with NETCONF/YANG." IMHO we ne= ed a bit more than just wordsmithing. * While the draft uses IOAM capabilities discovery as the use-case, in more= general terms, it proposes to add management/ops capabilities to echo-requ= est/reply protocols like ICMP, which is a much broader topic. The TLV struc= tures which are proposed to be added to echo-requests and echo-replies coul= d obviously be leveraged for other use-cases. Does the work really fit the = scope of the IPPM WG? Thanks, Frank From: ippm > On Behalf = Of Tommy Pauly Sent: Freitag, 30. Oktober 2020 19:46 To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Cc: IPPM Chairs > Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state Hello IPPM, This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-xiao-ippm-ioa= m-conf-state. This document has been presented several times and discussed = within the working group in the context of our overall IOAM work. The document can be found here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state-07 Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mon= day, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian --_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE297FBA27Ddggeml530mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hi all,

     

    As mentioned on the mic, I shared the similar concern on the seco= nd point. Given the draft is going to define extensions to ICMP, MPLS echo/= Request, IMHO those parts should be defined in those relevant WGs (e.g, 6man, MPLS WG), at least those WGs should be i= nvolved in this discussion.

     

    Best regards,

    Mach

     

    From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Frank Brockners (fbrockne)
    Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 3:13 PM
    To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; IETF IP= PM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-sta= te

     

    Hello IPPM,

     

    per what I mentioned during the= IPPM WG meeting today, I don’t think we should adopt the document be= fore we have a couple of key questions resolved:

     

    * Why can’t we use Netcon= f/YANG (with the existing capabilities discovery process – a la RFC 6= 241) to retrieve the IOAM capabilities of IOAM nodes? E.g. the encapsulatin= g node (as a NC client) could retrieve the IOAM capabilities from other IOAM nodes  (acting as a NC server). Plus the= re is already a YANG model in flight for IOAM (draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-08= ). At a minimum I would have expected that the draft discusses why NC/YANG = is not suitable for the scenario that the authors have in mind. The slides (https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/materials/slide= s-109-ippm-echo-requestreply-for-enabled-ioam-capabilities-00) that were presented in the IPPM WG meeting today, mention “Changed f= rom “IOAM Configuration Data” to “Enabled IOAM Capabiliti= es” since the former is too associated with NETCONF/YANG.” IMHO= we need a bit more than just wordsmithing.

     

    * While the draft uses IOAM cap= abilities discovery as the use-case, in more general terms, it proposes to = add management/ops capabilities to echo-request/reply protocols like ICMP, = which is a much broader topic. The TLV structures which are proposed to be added to echo-requests and echo-replie= s could obviously be leveraged for other use-cases. Does the work really fi= t the scope of the IPPM WG?

     

    Thanks, Frank=

     

    From: ippm <ippm-bounces@= ietf.org> On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly
    Sent: Freitag, 30. Oktober 2020 19:46
    To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org= ) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-cha= irs@ietf.org>
    Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state

     

    Hello IPPM,


    This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-xiao-ipp= m-ioam-conf-state. This document has been presented several times and discu= ssed within the working group in the context of our overall IOAM work.

    The document can be found here:

    https:= //tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state-07

    Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, o= n Monday, November 16.

    Best,
    Tommy & Ian

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dGlsIHRoZSBodG1saXplZCB2ZXJzaW9uIGFuZCBkaWZmIGFyZSBhdmFpbGFibGUgYXQgdG9vbHMu aWV0Zi5vcmcuDQo+IA0KPiBUaGUgSUVURiBTZWNyZXRhcmlhdA0KPiANCj4gDQo+IF9fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IGlwcG0gbWFpbGluZyBs aXN0DQo+IGlwcG1AaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0 aW5mby9pcHBtDQoNCg== From nobody Mon Nov 16 01:02:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5332B3A1625; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 01:02:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0359uNR57lPW; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 01:02:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 523FD3A1643; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 01:02:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml709-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.206]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4CZNM41kcbz67DHj; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 17:00:16 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.33) by fraeml709-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 10:02:02 +0100 Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) by fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 10:02:02 +0100 From: Giuseppe Fioccola To: "Lubashev, Igor" , "Bulgarella Fabio (Guest)" , "IETF IPPM WG" CC: Marcus Ihlar , "quic@ietf.org" , "draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements@ietf.org" , Jari Arkko , "emile.stephan@orange.com" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHWsS0rwbNbp3ILE06GV2jEoUidbqm2KZUAgBQ0dwCAACtE8A== Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 09:02:02 +0000 Message-ID: <133986b686f64588a1429ce89fb682a4@huawei.com> References: <160433105106.15151.4734142538796326112@ietfa.amsl.com> <1604400288305.52374@guest.telecomitalia.it> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.48.215.142] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements-00.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 09:02:20 -0000 Hi Igor, Mauro, All, Thank you for pointing this out. Let me also highlight the great work we did to merge the two previous draft= s (draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits and draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measur= ements) with a lot of email discussion within the design team. Regards, Giuseppe -----Original Message----- From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lubashev, Igor Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 8:18 AM To: Bulgarella Fabio (Guest) ; IETF IPPM WG Cc: Marcus Ihlar ; quic@ietf.org; draft-mdt-ippm= -explicit-flow-measurements@ietf.org; Jari Arkko ;= emile.stephan@orange.com Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-fl= ow-measurements-00.txt Thanks for presenting this draft today, Mauro. This work has been presented and well-received in multiple working groups (= quic, tsvwg, mops, maprg) as well as ippm during multiple previous IETF mee= tings. The present draft is a result of much feedback we received there. = Since the draft is ultimately about measurement techniques -- ippm's domain= -- we've called for its adoption today. Best, - Igor -----Original Message----- From: Bulgarella Fabio (Guest) Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 5:45 AM To: IETF IPPM WG Cc: quic@ietf.org; Marcus Ihlar ; draft-mdt-ippm= -explicit-flow-measurements@ietf.org; emile.stephan@orange.com; Jari Arkko = Subject: I: New Version Notification for draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measu= rements-00.txt Dear IPPM WG, following up the discussion on the mailing list and in the previous meeting= (IETF 108), we merged the previous two drafts on explicit measures (draft-= ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits, draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) in t= he enclosed new document. The authors of the previous drafts and other contributors jointly worked on= this new revision in order to merge the content of the two drafts making a= unified explanation. A recap section has been added to give an immediate overview of the availab= le methodologies, for both delay and loss metrics, by using comparing table= s. If you want, you could also have a look at this new related IPPM draft http= s://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-cnbf-ippm-use= r-devices-explicit-monitoring-00.txt__;!!GjvTz_vk!Dw_7Wq42NUtivV0I3sp_4lfab= GH0G7qV7b-nmTVfu0Eg9qZyh7DL48pASuIRm3s$=20 Comments and suggestions are more than welcome. Best Regards, Fabio B. ________________________________________ Da: internet-drafts@ietf.org Inviato: luned=EC 2 novembre 2020 16:30 A: Riccardo Sisto; Giuseppe Fioccola; Bulgarella Fabio (Guest); Alexandre F= errieux; Isabelle Hamchaoui; Igor Lubashev; Cociglio Mauro; Dmitri Tikhonov= ; Nilo Massimo Oggetto: [EXT] New Version Notification for draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-me= asurements-00.txt A new version of I-D, draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Igor Lubashev and posted to the IETF rep= ository. Name: draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements Revision: 00 Title: Explicit Flow Measurements Techniques Document date: 2020-11-02 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 38 URL: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/archive/id= /draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements-00.txt__;!!GjvTz_vk!Dw_7Wq42NUti= vV0I3sp_4lfabGH0G7qV7b-nmTVfu0Eg9qZyh7DL48pAUsWRr6Q$=20 Status: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/do= c/draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements/__;!!GjvTz_vk!Dw_7Wq42NUtivV0I3= sp_4lfabGH0G7qV7b-nmTVfu0Eg9qZyh7DL48pA-3p1zrE$=20 Html: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/archive/id= /draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements-00.html__;!!GjvTz_vk!Dw_7Wq42NUt= ivV0I3sp_4lfabGH0G7qV7b-nmTVfu0Eg9qZyh7DL48pAi9tD2Xc$=20 Htmlized: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tools.ietf.org/html/dra= ft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements-00__;!!GjvTz_vk!Dw_7Wq42NUtivV0I3sp_= 4lfabGH0G7qV7b-nmTVfu0Eg9qZyh7DL48pAR5iZens$=20 Abstract: This document describes protocol independent methods called Explicit Flow Measurement Techniques that employ few marking bits, inside the header of each packet, for loss and delay measurement. The endpoints, marking the traffic, signal these metrics to intermediate observers allowing them to measure connection performance, and to locate the network segment where impairments happen. Different alternatives are considered within this document. These signaling methods apply to all protocols but they are especially valuable when applied to protocols that encrypt transport header and do not allow traditional methods for delay and loss detection. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From nobody Mon Nov 16 01:06:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FE033A1614 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 01:06:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z5gmmzx9TTqT for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 01:06:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yb1-xb29.google.com (mail-yb1-xb29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C51D33A1613 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 01:06:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yb1-xb29.google.com with SMTP id l14so10869053ybq.3 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 01:06:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yqgL1g+qwV6eWpB0jUZWwMLZiHnWI9tyaZjQq7mcvUQ=; b=OaXonujD7dXHWbSMyueQ0yAHEpaTwQ9ODts0CWwQ7UBnfF+Rkt0i3BOSjWuvNZpW6z dScUOJxJEA1zVH12PmoZoNH+AFMiANfPRhAhF8G7Y2ZoYw9x1xF5oQ3StQ+9oNzQQnRP EDk5EsLs2ulc1XMbTNbhG4uM+1e3mo4+t9gQrrHKJsimfDH5u1L0TDFr1BzPz/r5vf6p n0POdKI0NMVjhv1h+Rm2rN188FmYwESvZc2129btfxBtgb5aSx7UENsD8sURMrGB/BWf g7Y0bp/nstOcsKEPBEGZhUGkeqY59f7j76CBDP455LGcNbDMWU5TEi6NPWQDAWE17n+C B9AQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yqgL1g+qwV6eWpB0jUZWwMLZiHnWI9tyaZjQq7mcvUQ=; b=VyikqY0ERwv9MMTLKidaDk40XsU2cLGFKno6Jsm/4UxbzpZMWAeggOE4Ift1JD/jhb kxcqurnT4WI9iwzEZaTNk8GdrX77icF/eJ80qGSX25LUNL3x3bYxMcC4kNrw8HuPukHG kcPPOa8YzmWQYYmBbvisGgvzsoFqpQupZaFv+1k1nkpZcvOiT9QfX5lGCeP7mT0et08w cH7jgujnkDramSrfpcXBfoV6AyDZQBtnRwzNbn65mGExS5gISa9X894/6UJYkDX2zBCV mCoUKMxA+5YsNbzodCE4VuMPUsZ+9YturLIPcSZ8xHC9X0j51PyRIHfm229I9GAxILPS Mv2w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5314XsVx2Ge1Gb7YhZprRLe2BPddH+QN/jCsl6gJeVvswjEh/d0O SlyfoBP4n5M24IVsMh3/hRGPIT5r2EriKg+008NJKA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzp59Crd5jsXqz7uaeZqtcsBYRS0wTzfhkHkPWd8RDQlfLCT2Wj6dQGLV47okFUsO3ZPXO5mj0Kh/O1MRdCnHI= X-Received: by 2002:a25:2d55:: with SMTP id s21mr15460020ybe.389.1605517559612; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 01:05:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160433105106.15151.4734142538796326112@ietfa.amsl.com> <1604400288305.52374@guest.telecomitalia.it> <133986b686f64588a1429ce89fb682a4@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <133986b686f64588a1429ce89fb682a4@huawei.com> From: Ian Swett Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 04:05:48 -0500 Message-ID: To: Giuseppe Fioccola Cc: "Lubashev, Igor" , "Bulgarella Fabio (Guest)" , IETF IPPM WG , "emile.stephan@orange.com" , Marcus Ihlar , "draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements@ietf.org" , Jari Arkko , "quic@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d2b8f605b435afca" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements-00.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 09:06:05 -0000 --000000000000d2b8f605b435afca Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tommy and I really appreciate you merging the drafts and I'd encourage everyone in the working group to read the updated draft and provide feedback as needed. Thanks, Ian On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 4:02 AM Giuseppe Fioccola < giuseppe.fioccola@huawei.com> wrote: > Hi Igor, Mauro, All, > Thank you for pointing this out. > Let me also highlight the great work we did to merge the two previous > drafts (draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits and > draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) with a lot of email discussion withi= n > the design team. > > Regards, > > Giuseppe > > -----Original Message----- > From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lubashev, Igor > Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 8:18 AM > To: Bulgarella Fabio (Guest) 40guest.telecomitalia.it@dmarc.ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG > Cc: Marcus Ihlar ; quic@ietf.org; > draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements@ietf.org; Jari Arkko < > jari.arkko@ericsson.com>; emile.stephan@orange.com > Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for > draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements-00.txt > > Thanks for presenting this draft today, Mauro. > > This work has been presented and well-received in multiple working groups > (quic, tsvwg, mops, maprg) as well as ippm during multiple previous IETF > meetings. The present draft is a result of much feedback we received > there. Since the draft is ultimately about measurement techniques -- > ippm's domain -- we've called for its adoption today. > > Best, > > - Igor > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bulgarella Fabio (Guest) 40guest.telecomitalia.it@dmarc.ietf.org> > Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 5:45 AM > To: IETF IPPM WG > Cc: quic@ietf.org; Marcus Ihlar ; > draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements@ietf.org; > emile.stephan@orange.com; Jari Arkko > Subject: I: New Version Notification for > draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements-00.txt > > Dear IPPM WG, > > following up the discussion on the mailing list and in the previous > meeting (IETF 108), we merged the previous two drafts on explicit measure= s > (draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits, > draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) in the enclosed new document. > > The authors of the previous drafts and other contributors jointly worked > on this new revision in order to merge the content of the two drafts maki= ng > a unified explanation. > A recap section has been added to give an immediate overview of the > available methodologies, for both delay and loss metrics, by using > comparing tables. > > If you want, you could also have a look at this new related IPPM draft > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-cnbf-ip= pm-user-devices-explicit-monitoring-00.txt__;!!GjvTz_vk!Dw_7Wq42NUtivV0I3sp= _4lfabGH0G7qV7b-nmTVfu0Eg9qZyh7DL48pASuIRm3s$ > > Comments and suggestions are more than welcome. > > Best Regards, > Fabio B. > > > ________________________________________ > Da: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Inviato: luned=C3=AC 2 novembre 2020 16:30 > A: Riccardo Sisto; Giuseppe Fioccola; Bulgarella Fabio (Guest); Alexandre > Ferrieux; Isabelle Hamchaoui; Igor Lubashev; Cociglio Mauro; Dmitri > Tikhonov; Nilo Massimo > Oggetto: [EXT] New Version Notification for > draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements-00.txt > > A new version of I-D, draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Igor Lubashev and posted to the IETF > repository. > > Name: draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements > Revision: 00 > Title: Explicit Flow Measurements Techniques > Document date: 2020-11-02 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 38 > URL: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-mdt-ipp= m-explicit-flow-measurements-00.txt__;!!GjvTz_vk!Dw_7Wq42NUtivV0I3sp_4lfabG= H0G7qV7b-nmTVfu0Eg9qZyh7DL48pAUsWRr6Q$ > Status: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mdt-ip= pm-explicit-flow-measurements/__;!!GjvTz_vk!Dw_7Wq42NUtivV0I3sp_4lfabGH0G7q= V7b-nmTVfu0Eg9qZyh7DL48pA-3p1zrE$ > Html: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-mdt-ipp= m-explicit-flow-measurements-00.html__;!!GjvTz_vk!Dw_7Wq42NUtivV0I3sp_4lfab= GH0G7qV7b-nmTVfu0Eg9qZyh7DL48pAi9tD2Xc$ > Htmlized: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mdt-ippm-ex= plicit-flow-measurements-00__;!!GjvTz_vk!Dw_7Wq42NUtivV0I3sp_4lfabGH0G7qV7b= -nmTVfu0Eg9qZyh7DL48pAR5iZens$ > > > Abstract: > This document describes protocol independent methods called Explicit > Flow Measurement Techniques that employ few marking bits, inside the > header of each packet, for loss and delay measurement. The > endpoints, marking the traffic, signal these metrics to intermediate > observers allowing them to measure connection performance, and to > locate the network segment where impairments happen. Different > alternatives are considered within this document. These signaling > methods apply to all protocols but they are especially valuable when > applied to protocols that encrypt transport header and do not allow > traditional methods for delay and loss detection. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at > tools.ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > --000000000000d2b8f605b435afca Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Tommy and I really appreciate you merging the drafts and I= 'd encourage everyone in the working group to read the updated draft an= d provide feedback as needed.

    Thanks, Ian
    On Mon, N= ov 16, 2020 at 4:02 AM Giuseppe Fioccola <giuseppe.fioccola@huawei.com> wrote:
    Hi Igor, Mauro, All,
    Thank you for pointing this out.
    Let me also highlight the great work we did to merge the two previous draft= s (draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits and draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measur= ements) with a lot of email discussion within the design team.

    Regards,

    Giuseppe

    -----Original Message-----
    From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lubashev, Igor
    Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 8:18 AM
    To: Bulgarella Fabio (Guest) <fabio.bulgarella=3D40guest.telecomitalia= .it@dmarc.ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
    Cc: Marcus Ihlar <marcus.ihlar@ericsson.com>; quic@ietf.org; draft-mdt-ippm-explicit= -flow-measurements@ietf.org; Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@ericsson.com>; emile.stephan@orange= .com
    Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-fl= ow-measurements-00.txt

    Thanks for presenting this draft today, Mauro.

    This work has been presented and well-received in multiple working groups (= quic, tsvwg, mops, maprg) as well as ippm during multiple previous IETF mee= tings.=C2=A0 The present draft is a result of much feedback we received the= re.=C2=A0 Since the draft is ultimately about measurement techniques -- ipp= m's domain -- we've called for its adoption today.

    Best,

    - Igor

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Bulgarella Fabio (Guest) <fabio.bulgarella=3D40guest.telecomital= ia.it@dmarc.ietf.org>
    Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 5:45 AM
    To: IETF IPPM WG <ipp= m@ietf.org>
    Cc: quic@ietf.org; M= arcus Ihlar <marcus.ihlar@ericsson.com>; draft-mdt-ippm-explicit= -flow-measurements@ietf.org; emile.stephan@orange.com; Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@ericsson.com<= /a>>
    Subject: I: New Version Notification for draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measu= rements-00.txt

    Dear IPPM WG,

    following up the discussion on the mailing list and in the previous meeting= (IETF 108), we merged the previous two drafts on explicit measures (draft-= ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits, draft-cfb-ippm-spinbit-measurements) in t= he enclosed new document.

    The authors of the previous drafts and other contributors jointly worked on= this new revision in order to merge the content of the two drafts making a= unified explanation.
    A recap section has been added to give an immediate overview of the availab= le methodologies, for both delay and loss metrics, by using comparing table= s.

    If you want, you could also have a look at this new related IPPM draft     https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/d= raft-cnbf-ippm-user-devices-explicit-monitoring-00.txt__;!!GjvTz_vk!Dw_7Wq4= 2NUtivV0I3sp_4lfabGH0G7qV7b-nmTVfu0Eg9qZyh7DL48pASuIRm3s$

    Comments and suggestions are more than welcome.

    Best Regards,
    Fabio B.


    ________________________________________
    Da: internet-= drafts@ietf.org <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
    Inviato: luned=C3=AC 2 novembre 2020 16:30
    A: Riccardo Sisto; Giuseppe Fioccola; Bulgarella Fabio (Guest); Alexandre F= errieux; Isabelle Hamchaoui; Igor Lubashev; Cociglio Mauro; Dmitri Tikhonov= ; Nilo Massimo
    Oggetto: [EXT] New Version Notification for draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-me= asurements-00.txt

    A new version of I-D, draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements-00.txt
    has been successfully submitted by Igor Lubashev and posted to the IETF rep= ository.

    Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-= measurements
    Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000
    Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Explicit Flow Measurements Techniq= ues
    Document date:=C2=A0 2020-11-02
    Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
    Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 38
    URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://urldefense= .com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-meas= urements-00.txt__;!!GjvTz_vk!Dw_7Wq42NUtivV0I3sp_4lfabGH0G7qV7b-nmTVfu0Eg9q= Zyh7DL48pAUsWRr6Q$
    Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://urldefense.com/v3/__= https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements/= __;!!GjvTz_vk!Dw_7Wq42NUtivV0I3sp_4lfabGH0G7qV7b-nmTVfu0Eg9qZyh7DL48pA-3p1z= rE$
    Html:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://urldefens= e.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-mea= surements-00.html__;!!GjvTz_vk!Dw_7Wq42NUtivV0I3sp_4lfabGH0G7qV7b-nmTVfu0Eg= 9qZyh7DL48pAi9tD2Xc$
    Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://= tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mdt-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements-00__;!!GjvTz_= vk!Dw_7Wq42NUtivV0I3sp_4lfabGH0G7qV7b-nmTVfu0Eg9qZyh7DL48pAR5iZens$

    Abstract:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document describes protocol independent methods called Ex= plicit
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0Flow Measurement Techniques that employ few marking bits, insi= de the
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0header of each packet, for loss and delay measurement.=C2=A0 T= he
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0endpoints, marking the traffic, signal these metrics to interm= ediate
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0observers allowing them to measure connection performance, and= to
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0locate the network segment where impairments happen.=C2=A0 Dif= ferent
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0alternatives are considered within this document.=C2=A0 These = signaling
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0methods apply to all protocols but they are especially valuabl= e when
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0applied to protocols that encrypt transport header and do not = allow
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0traditional methods for delay and loss detection.




    Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

    The IETF Secretariat



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    --000000000000d2b8f605b435afca-- From nobody Mon Nov 16 01:27:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 495B63A16AA; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 01:27:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7EZ--jr1eGMM; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 01:27:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 631193A1672; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 01:27:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml706-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.201]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4CZNwV6BTGz67DNw; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 17:25:46 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.55) by fraeml706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.55) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 10:27:17 +0100 Received: from DGGEML405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.49) by fraeml706-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.55) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA_P256) id 15.1.1913.5 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 10:27:17 +0100 Received: from DGGEML529-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.6.220]) by dggeml405-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.3.17.49]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 17:27:11 +0800 From: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , Tommy Pauly , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" CC: IPPM Chairs Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state Thread-Index: AQHWru0ImUsFem+V/kCfKueXVDq2UqnJ67yAgACpX6A= Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 09:27:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5E408E0E-862E-480B-88FD-890098340EBC@apple.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.130] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB02CBD214dggeml529mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 09:27:30 -0000 --_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB02CBD214dggeml529mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have one simple question like I mentioned in the meeting: Is it secure to= discover the non-routing capabilities info from the data plane? For instance, a packet may travel several network domains, and the trusted = scope is only within each domain. When we use ICMP Ping, we can get the non= -routing info from other domains. Is it OK to do it? I think we should con= sider more about security and privacy. Furthermore, can we collect the IOAM data in multiple domain scenarios? Or = only within a trusted domain? Thanks, Cheng From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Frank Brockners (fbr= ockne) Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 3:13 PM To: Tommy Pauly ; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@i= etf.org) Cc: IPPM Chairs Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state Hello IPPM, per what I mentioned during the IPPM WG meeting today, I don't think we sho= uld adopt the document before we have a couple of key questions resolved: * Why can't we use Netconf/YANG (with the existing capabilities discovery p= rocess - a la RFC 6241) to retrieve the IOAM capabilities of IOAM nodes? E.= g. the encapsulating node (as a NC client) could retrieve the IOAM capabili= ties from other IOAM nodes (acting as a NC server). Plus there is already = a YANG model in flight for IOAM (draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-08). At a minimu= m I would have expected that the draft discusses why NC/YANG is not suitabl= e for the scenario that the authors have in mind. The slides (https://datat= racker.ietf.org/meeting/109/materials/slides-109-ippm-echo-requestreply-for= -enabled-ioam-capabilities-00) that were presented in the IPPM WG meeting t= oday, mention "Changed from "IOAM Configuration Data" to "Enabled IOAM Capa= bilities" since the former is too associated with NETCONF/YANG." IMHO we ne= ed a bit more than just wordsmithing. * While the draft uses IOAM capabilities discovery as the use-case, in more= general terms, it proposes to add management/ops capabilities to echo-requ= est/reply protocols like ICMP, which is a much broader topic. The TLV struc= tures which are proposed to be added to echo-requests and echo-replies coul= d obviously be leveraged for other use-cases. Does the work really fit the = scope of the IPPM WG? Thanks, Frank From: ippm > On Behalf = Of Tommy Pauly Sent: Freitag, 30. Oktober 2020 19:46 To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Cc: IPPM Chairs > Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state Hello IPPM, This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-xiao-ippm-ioa= m-conf-state. This document has been presented several times and discussed = within the working group in the context of our overall IOAM work. The document can be found here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state-07 Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mon= day, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian --_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB02CBD214dggeml529mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    I have one simple ques= tion like I mentioned in the meeting: Is it secure to discover the non-rout= ing capabilities info from the data plane?

     

    For instance, a packet= may travel several network domains, and the trusted scope is only within e= ach domain. When we use ICMP Ping, we can get the non-routing info from oth= er domains. Is it OK to do it?  I think we should consider more about security and privacy.

     

    Furthermore, can we co= llect the IOAM data in multiple domain scenarios? Or only within a trusted = domain?

     

    Thanks,

    Cheng

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of Frank Brockners (fbrockne)
    Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 3:13 PM
    To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; IETF IP= PM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-sta= te

     

    Hello IPPM,

     

    per what I mentioned during the IPPM WG meeting toda= y, I don’t think we should adopt the document before we have a couple= of key questions resolved:

     

    * Why can’t we use Netconf/YANG (with the exis= ting capabilities discovery process – a la RFC 6241) to retrieve the = IOAM capabilities of IOAM nodes? E.g. the encapsulating node (as a NC clien= t) could retrieve the IOAM capabilities from other IOAM nodes  (acting as a NC server). Plus there is already a YANG mod= el in flight for IOAM (draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-08). At a minimum I would = have expected that the draft discusses why NC/YANG is not suitable for the = scenario that the authors have in mind. The slides (https:/= /datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/materials/slides-109-ippm-echo-requestrep= ly-for-enabled-ioam-capabilities-00) that were presented in the IPPM WG meeting today, mention “Changed f= rom “IOAM Configuration Data” to “Enabled IOAM Capabiliti= es” since the former is too associated with NETCONF/YANG.” IMHO= we need a bit more than just wordsmithing.

     

    * While the draft uses IOAM capabilities discovery a= s the use-case, in more general terms, it proposes to add management/ops ca= pabilities to echo-request/reply protocols like ICMP, which is a much broad= er topic. The TLV structures which are proposed to be added to echo-requests and echo-replies could obviously= be leveraged for other use-cases. Does the work really fit the scope of th= e IPPM WG?

     

    Thanks, Frank

     

    From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly
    Sent: Freitag, 30. Oktober 2020 19:46
    To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org= ) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-cha= irs@ietf.org>
    Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state

     

    Hello IPPM,


    This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-xiao-ipp= m-ioam-conf-state. This document has been presented several times and discu= ssed within the working group in the context of our overall IOAM work.

    The document can be found here:

    https:= //tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state-07

    Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, o= n Monday, November 16.

    Best,
    Tommy & Ian

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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Al, thanks, I'll try to incorporate your comments for the next version. I prefe= r constant bit-rate measurements, so I'll remove lambda. I'll also have a closer look at the change point detection and add some tex= t. Regards, Ruediger Von: ippm Im Auftrag von MORTON, ALFRED C (AL) Gesendet: Montag, 16. November 2020 02:08 An: Tommy Pauly Cc: IPPM Chairs ; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Betreff: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitor= ing Hi Tommy and Ian, I'm writing to express some support for R=FCdiger's draft: draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring I would like to see the draft clarified in a few areas, concentrating on se= ction 3. Section 3, titled "Singleton Definition for Type-P-SR-Path-Connectivity-and-Congestion" It seems that this metric will need to represent both loss and delay to inf= er connectivity and congestion, starting in section 3.3. In 3.2, o lambda, a rate in reciprocal seconds and o DS, a constant time interval between two type-P packets seem to specify the same stream parameter, except that lambda is usually as= sociated with Poisson streams, and a constant time interval is for periodic= streams. Maybe both are possible, but not at the same time. In 3.3. Metric Units A sequence of consecutive time values. There are still units missing (seconds for delay change from the average?),= and loss count or loss ratio. These two different dimensions need to be r= epresented, and then connectivity and congestion need to be teased apart (b= oth can cause loss). In 3.4. Definition, It would be good to see more details on the moving average, starting with = a parameter in 3.2 that describes the window of the moving average, and an = equation or reference for the "change point detection algorithm". Al From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly Sent: Monday, November 2, 2020 9:17 AM To: Tommy Pauly > Cc: IPPM Chairs >; IETF I= PPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitor= ing On Oct 30, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Tommy Pauly > wrote: Hello IPPM, This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-geib-ippm-con= nectivity-monitoring. This document has been presented several times and di= scussed within the working group. The document can be found here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03 (Corrected link) Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mon= day, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --_000_FRAPR01MB07383B7C362036F18469C4589CE30FRAPR01MB0738DEUP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hi Al,

     

    thanks, I’ll try to incorporate your comments= for the next version. I prefer constant bit-rate measurements, so I’= ll remove lambda.

     

    I’ll also have a closer look at the change po= int detection and add some text.

     

    Regards,

     

    Ruediger

     

    Von: ippm &l= t;ippm-bounces@ietf.org> Im Auftrag von MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)
    Gesendet: Montag, 16. November 2020 02:08
    An: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@iet= f.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Betreff: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-= monitoring

     

    Hi Tommy and Ian,

     

    I’m writing to express some support for = R=FCdiger’s draft:

        draft-geib-ippm-connectivit= y-monitoring

     

    I would like to see the draft clarified in a f= ew areas, concentrating on section 3.

     

    Section 3, titled

    “Singleton Definition for Type-P-SR-Path= -Connectivity-and-Congestion”

     

    It seems that this metric will need to represe= nt both loss and delay to infer connectivity and congestion, starting in se= ction 3.3.

     

    In 3.2,

    o  lambda, a rate in reciprocal seconds

    and

    o  DS, a constant time interval between t= wo type-P packets

    seem to specify the same stream parameter, exc= ept that lambda is usually associated with Poisson streams, and a constant = time interval is for periodic streams.  Maybe both are possible, but not at the same time.

     

    In 3.3.  Metric Units

     

       A sequence of consecutive time va= lues.

     

    There are still units missing (seconds for del= ay change from the average?), and loss count or loss ratio.  These two= different dimensions need to be represented, and then connectivity and congestion need to be teased apart (both can cause loss).=

     

    In 3.4.  Definition,

    It would be good to see  more details on = the moving average, starting with a parameter in 3.2 that describes the win= dow of the moving average, and an equation or reference for the “change point detection algorithm”.  <= /span>

     

    Al

     

     

    From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly
    Sent: Monday, November 2, 2020 9:17 AM
    To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-cha= irs@ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@i= etf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-= monitoring

     

     

     

    On Oct 30, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc= .ietf.org> wrote:

     

    Hello IPPM,


    This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for draft-geib-ipp= m-connectivity-monitoring. This document has been presented several times a= nd discussed within the working group.

    The document can be found here:

    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitorin= g-03

     

    (Corrected link)

     


    Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, o= n Monday, November 16.

    Best,
    Tommy & Ian

    _______________________________________________
    ippm mailing list
    ippm@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

     

    --_000_FRAPR01MB07383B7C362036F18469C4589CE30FRAPR01MB0738DEUP_-- From nobody Mon Nov 16 07:14:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 477F13A1148; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 07:14:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x4Lt7eZnt_Pg; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 07:14:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from cnet.fi.uba.ar (cnet.fi.uba.ar [157.92.58.2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA9AC3A115A; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 07:14:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cnet.fi.uba.ar (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFDC5140077; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 12:14:22 -0300 (ART) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at cnet.fi.uba.ar Received: from cnet.fi.uba.ar ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (cnet.fi.uba.ar [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2-eddItEAqL6; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 12:14:16 -0300 (ART) Received: from [192.168.0.13] (unknown [181.46.139.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by cnet.fi.uba.ar (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 19938140068; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 12:14:16 -0300 (ART) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 12:14:01 -0300 Cc: ippm-chairs@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <626A4A7E-0941-46F8-947E-4CC24DFC86CE@cnet.fi.uba.ar> References: <159376413634.18432.970239984476460419@ietfa.amsl.com> <30B64F4F-6947-4ACB-8717-BF32143241EE@cnet.fi.uba.ar> To: Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 15:14:30 -0000 Dear R=C3=BCdiger, I agree that the paper intends to do another thing. My point is, if you = know the topology, you have to choose the minimum number of paths to = make the measurements. Part of the paper that I suggested and thought = could be useful is to select the paths regarding the graph adjacency = matrix (and no the measurements itself). There are multiple methods; I = just signaling this one because it is one of the first work to do so, = for my knowledge. I hope that could be useful for you.=20 By the way, I support this draft = draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring. Best, J. Ignacio _______________________________________________________________ Dr. Ing. Jos=C3=A9 Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin CONICET and Facultad de Ingenier=C3=ADa, Universidad de Buenos Aires Av. Paseo Col=C3=B3n 850 - C1063ACV - Buenos Aires - Argentina +54 (11) 5285 0716 / 5285 0705 e-mail: ihameli@cnet.fi.uba.ar web: http://cnet.fi.uba.ar/ignacio.alvarez-hamelin/ _______________________________________________________________ > On 16 Nov 2020, at 05:46, = wrote: >=20 > Dear Ignacio, >=20 > Thanks. I agree that one should minimize the number of measurements = required to monitor a desired set of paths. That was one of my = motivations when I designed the method specified by the draft. >=20 > There are however some differences between the document you've = referenced below and my approach: > - the authors of "Structural analysis of network traffic flows" had = limited means of detecting the network topology. They further were able = to set up SPF single origin to single destination measurements only. = Finally, the exact SPF path taken in a network was often part of what = was to be detected.=20 > - My / the drafts starting point is: exact knowledge of the topology = and the ability to concatenate and forward packets along sets of SPF = paths by Segment Routing. By that, my design aim was to measure, what a = ping can measure with no more packets than a ping and add location of = congestion while not requiring router interaction apart from forwarding. = That is a minimisation already (I didn't think I need to propose any new = draft if it required more packets or measurement paths than a ping). = Taking that point of view, who auf the WG is having a better idea to = further minimize the number of paths while being able to extract "ping" = data, add location of congestion and stay in forwarding is invited to = publish.=20 >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Ruediger =20 >=20 >=20 > -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht----- > Von: J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin =20 > Gesendet: Montag, 16. November 2020 08:00 > An: Geib, R=C3=BCdiger > Cc: ippm-chairs@ietf.org; ippm@ietf.org > Betreff: Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for = draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03.txt >=20 > Dear Ruediger, >=20 > It is an excellent proposition that I saw in the papers some time ago. = Network tomography is somehow complicated because it would like, if I = understand correctly, to measure different paths and characteristics = with a minimum of paths. Could you consider to include some technique to = compute these paths? I know that isn't very easy, but it could be a = precious improvement. I know that is dependent on the topology, but = there are some excellent techniques to reduce the fraction of paths to = measure. I include a paper doing this through the reduction of the = number of paths (there are others): >=20 > Lakhina A, Papagiannaki K, Crovella M, Diot C, Kolaczyk ED, Taft N. = Structural analysis of network traffic flows. In Proceedings of the = Joint International Conference on Measurement and Modeling of Computer = Systems 2004 Jun 1 (pp. 61-72). >=20 > Perhaps you can cite this work as a possible method to compute that = and include some methodology about the selection on the end-points, = which leads to define the size of the problem and improve your = proposition. Why is the size important? Because you would like to use = the minimum number of testing paths to minimize the traffic and process = them quickly. Besides, this technique could be used in many cases, not = just in a particular topology. Eventually, I can help with this = particular point.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > J. Ignacio >=20 > _______________________________________________________________ >=20 > Dr. Ing. Jos=C3=A9 Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin > CONICET and Facultad de Ingenier=C3=ADa, Universidad de Buenos Aires = Av. Paseo Col=C3=B3n 850 - C1063ACV - Buenos Aires - Argentina > +54 (11) 5285 0716 / 5285 0705 > e-mail: ihameli@cnet.fi.uba.ar > web: http://cnet.fi.uba.ar/ignacio.alvarez-hamelin/ > _______________________________________________________________ >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 3 Jul 2020, at 05:41, Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de wrote: >>=20 >> Dear chairs, >>=20 >> draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring has been presented during the = IPPM IETF 107.=20 >> The new version addresses the request to add information on = periodicity of the measurements.=20 >> I've added text in section 3.8 "Reporting the metric". Minor changes=20= >> in the introduction aim on better comprehensibility. >>=20 >> I don't participate at IETF 108 (online registration is charged this = time, bad for participants in vacation).=20 >> I'd nevertheless ask for adoption as a WG doc (but that may also be=20= >> postponed until IETF 109, when I will try to participate and present=20= >> the draft). Comments on the draft and your guidance regarding steps = to adoption is welcome. >>=20 >> Regards, >>=20 >> Ruediger >>=20 >> -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht----- >> Von: internet-drafts@ietf.org >> Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Juli 2020 10:16 >> An: Geib, R=C3=BCdiger >> Betreff: New Version Notification for=20 >> draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03.txt >>=20 >>=20 >> A new version of I-D, draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03.txt >> has been successfully submitted by Ruediger Geib and posted to the = IETF repository. >>=20 >> Name: draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring >> Revision: 03 >> Title: A Connectivity Monitoring Metric for IPPM >> Document date: 2020-07-03 >> Group: Individual Submission >> Pages: 13 >> URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitori= ng-03.txt >> Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring/ >> Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03 >> Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitor= ing >> Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitorin= g-03 >>=20 >> Abstract: >> Within a Segment Routing domain, segment routed measurement packets >> can be sent along pre-determined paths. This enables new kinds of >> measurements. Connectivity monitoring allows to supervise the state >> and performance of a connection or a (sub)path from one or a few >> central monitoring systems. This document specifies a suitable >> type-P connectivity monitoring metric. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org. >>=20 >> The IETF Secretariat >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> ippm mailing list >> ippm@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >=20 From nobody Mon Nov 16 07:32:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C86A3A1263; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 07:32:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, 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Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DM6PR11MB31153A106CC3A0CE37CBF9F4BFE30DM6PR11MB3115namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR11MB3115.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e6f84239-95bb-42b4-1856-08d88a47bde9 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Nov 2020 15:53:20.5388 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: CLkW1yPfmhW7oEn4YYdSOCX15pp6WpyQwJ7svy03x3B5gvwD4s4tU5XwODs/s2BReFEHYaJlZMLGrlGFQOeOTQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR11MB4660 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.11, xch-aln-001.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-6.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 15:53:36 -0000 --_000_DM6PR11MB31153A106CC3A0CE37CBF9F4BFE30DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Greg, Please see inline for reply on one of the comments below with =85 =95 Does the document solve a real problem? No, it appears that both TWAMP and STAMP drafts define a new performance = measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/TWAMP and STAMP fun= ctionality in the respective drafts, and adding the ability to collect coun= ters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find sufficient technical argument= s for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing O= AM mechanisms like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884. There is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as synth= etic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWA= MP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packet= loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a good opti= on here. GIM>> I agree with the requirements you've listed (though the SPRING WG OAM= requirements document has been abandoned and expired 3+ years ago). I believe th= at there's no sufficient technical reason to use OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for excl= usive direct packet loss measurement. There has been a requirement to measure =93direct-mode=94 packet loss= (i.e. actual customer data traffic loss) in a network using probe messages= . To address them, probe messages for various protocols have been developed= like RFC 6374 (please see Section 2.9.8 and 3.1) for MPLS data plane and I= TU Y.1731 for Ethernet-based networks. In segment routing networks, there a= re use-cases, for example, like measuring packet loss metrics for links whi= ch are based on the packet counters (please see RFC 8570, Section 4.4). TWA= MP and STAMP ideally suited for them given widely they are deployed and its= ability to support IPv4/IPv6/SR-MPLS/SRv6 etc. data planes in segment rout= ing networks. Other than timestamp vs. traffic counter and it=92s format, t= he test-packet formats are the same, hence existing implementation of TWAMP= /STAMP can be easily leveraged in SR networks. We will add related informat= ion in the Introduction section of the draft. Thanks, Rakesh Regards, Greg On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly > wrote: Hello IPPM, For the past few meetings, we=92ve had updates on the work in the SPRING WG= that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making exte= nsions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it= would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in = the IPPM WG. As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption for draft-gandhi= -ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. The documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 The related SPRING documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether or not y= ou believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Pl= ease provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mo= nday, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --_000_DM6PR11MB31153A106CC3A0CE37CBF9F4BFE30DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hi Greg,

    Please see inline for reply on one o= f the comments below with <RG1>=85

     <snip>

    =B7  Does the document solve a real problem?

    No, it appears that  both TWAMP and STAMP drafts  d= efine a new performance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/= TWAMP and STAMP functionality in the respective drafts, and adding the abil= ity to collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find = sufficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing OAM mechanisms= like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884.

    <RG00> There is a requirement = to measure performance delay as well as synthetic and direct-mode packet lo= ss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packet l= oss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a good option= here.

    GIM>> I agree with the requirements you'v= e listed (though the SPRING WG OAM requirements document has been abandoned and expired= 3+ years ago). I believe that there's no sufficient technical reason = to use OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for exclusive direct packet loss measurement. 

     

    <RG1> There has been a require= ment to measure =93direct-mode=94 packet loss (i.e. actual customer data traffic loss) in a network using probe messages. To a= ddress them, probe messages for various protocols have been developed like = RFC 6374 (please see Section 2.9.8 and 3.1) for MPLS data plane and ITU Y.1= 731 for Ethernet-based networks. In segment routing networks, there are use-cases, for example, like measur= ing packet loss metrics for links which are based on the packet counters (p= lease see RFC 8570, Section 4.4). TWAMP and STAMP ideally suited for them g= iven widely they are deployed and its ability to support IPv4/IPv6/SR-MPLS/SRv6 etc. data planes in segment = routing networks. Other than timestamp vs. traffic counter and it=92s forma= t, the test-packet formats are the same, hence existing implementation of T= WAMP/STAMP can be easily leveraged in SR networks. We will add related information in the Introduction sectio= n of the draft.

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

    Regards,

    Greg

     

    On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.= ietf.org> wrote:

    Hello IPPM,

    For the past few meetings, we=92ve had updates on the work in the = SPRING WG that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up ma= king extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it would be best to split the d= ocuments and track the IPPM extension work in the IPPM WG.

    As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption for&nbs= p;draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm.=

    Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether= or not you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this = email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Monday, November 16.<= o:p>

    Best,

    Tommy & Ian

    _______________________________________________
    ippm mailing list
    ippm@ietf.org
    ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

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boundary="_000_SN6PR13MB2334C5035FFF4F9D0285C0E785E30SN6PR13MB2334namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SN6PR13MB2334.namprd13.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 0a7cdc82-c9d6-49e5-48de-08d88a5d1643 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Nov 2020 18:26:08.2115 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: DmvFkLGQ25m3KPPRVj2OCjmmP6KiWU5VgXAULLAh0umuu2ypLCwdIUle9eUJYDyhRdk+D7JNhf5q/3oeGkOYQw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SA0PR13MB3981 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 18:26:14 -0000 --_000_SN6PR13MB2334C5035FFF4F9D0285C0E785E30SN6PR13MB2334namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I support the WG adoption for those two drafts. I think they are useful. Best regards, Linda Dunbar ---------------------------------------------- From: Tommy Pauly Date: Friday, October 30, 2020 at 3:35 PM To: "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Cc: IPPM Chairs = rg>, "spring-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-g= andhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hello IPPM, For the past few meetings, we've had updates on the work in the SPRING WG t= hat was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making extens= ions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it w= ould be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in th= e IPPM WG. As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption for draft-gandhi= -ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. The documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 The related SPRING documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether or not y= ou believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Pl= ease provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mo= nday, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian --_000_SN6PR13MB2334C5035FFF4F9D0285C0E785E30SN6PR13MB2334namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    I support the WG adoption for tho= se two drafts. I think they are useful.

     

    Best regards, Linda Dunbar

    ---------------------------------= -------------

     

    From: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>

    Date: Friday, October 30, 2020 at= 3:35 PM

    To: "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@iet= f.org)" <ippm@ietf.org>

    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>rg>, "spring-chairs@ietf.org" <spring-chairs@ietf.org>

    Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption= : draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm<= /span>

     

    Hello IPPM,

     

    For the past few meetings, weR= 17;ve had updates on the work in the SPRING WG that was using STAMP and TWA= MP. Since those documents ended up making extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it would= be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in the IP= PM WG.

     

    As such, we are starting a Workin= g Group call for adoption for draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi= -ippm-stamp-srpm.

     

    The documents are here:

     

    https:= //tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00=

    https:= //tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00=

     

    The related SPRING documents are = here:

     

    http= s://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03

    http= s://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11

     

    Please provide your feedback on t= hese documents, and state whether or not you believe the IPPM WG should ado= pt this work by replying to this email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on= Monday, November 16.

     

    Best,

    Tommy & Ian=

     

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X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FB6D3A0FAD; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 01:45:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AnpXPHCTlQFx; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 01:45:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x133.google.com (mail-il1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher 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:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Skg050ub6v1Ze7adq1pfw0Xhd2RNz58FauwO7Sym0ds=; b=fMAfgMYk+liXiT7VdlEK7cYzjIs/0BBsVtf8CLqvySjmYh2wjGJn+ZUc9yAXJ94uo4 ksm7uVtEYBkjKZCdjHE1gTcrAqqF079NDlE0uydCbL47M8d5EX2EZ+RVbxSAyt9zWu2c 7VT0bEmAtTnKozIm4/oTIreGuQvdlPWW8HMEXgUl96GldQ6yQcYHtIpiQ+LZlO2oO/SF mJi7AeRvSIGPXYlX+EcUtbnaBpEF50io9g163MO3MiuI0RhX6qSwbqUv6f3cWYmKoyTO Bdyp7TuyF5boO8ksyghE99VHvRknxRtI/mvohq5U7OBVAtcAt0iwMqbmkodFodlZhOFb UOZA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530GxHn6AKbWQZBLVUS2cu6ErqwJHdkbKFuQ5/7gPdpWiq3Ht/5n RS/Ln7skXlFdvi9bXQfkkvZZLCJa05OUWNEOCQ4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxH1c6xyI0kJctwLUL4yWtDq95hdN6e5nKuPXxCPSvm9K5Z0ojVb2SYgHYUnZTnS02jgWreXy5xsM63bT2xeW4= X-Received: by 2002:a92:2c09:: with SMTP id t9mr11187182ile.279.1605606296570; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 01:44:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <43DADFB5-FE8A-49A1-BF39-1ECC10594211@apple.com> <1ea39389889347bfb0e16fea668a9f59@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <1ea39389889347bfb0e16fea668a9f59@huawei.com> From: Dhruv Dhody Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 15:14:19 +0530 Message-ID: To: Tianran Zhou Cc: Tommy Pauly , IPPM Chairs , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f4d0d705b44a584a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 09:45:09 -0000 --000000000000f4d0d705b44a584a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Tianran, > > - Currently all 5 profiles can be configured at the same time in a single > ioam-profile (as each of them have a separate container of their own). Is > that intentional? > > ZTR> Yes, we want to allow a packet to apply different IOAM at the same > time. > > > [Dhruv]: That is true for some combinations, but it may not be the case for others. What would be the YANG best practice here - to me adding a must condition in the YANG makes sense, something like when Incremental Tracing Option is enabled, we check that the Pre-allocated Tracing Option is not already enabled (provided you agree that they should not be enabled at the same time)? Thanks, Dhruv --000000000000f4d0d705b44a584a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Tianran,=C2=A0

    <snip>

    - Currently all 5 profiles can be configured= at the same time in a single ioam-profile (as each of them have a separate= container=C2=A0of their=C2=A0own). Is that intentional?=C2=A0 =C2=A0

    ZTR> Yes, we want to allow a packet to apply different IOAM = at the same time.

    =C2=A0


    [Dhruv]: That is true for some combinations, but it may not be= the case for others.=C2=A0
    What would be the YANG best practice here - to me adding a must conditi= on in the YANG makes sense, something like when=C2=A0Incremental Tracing Op= tion is enabled, we check that the Pre-allocated Tracing Option=C2=A0is not= already enabled (provided you agree that they should not be enabled at the= same time)?=C2=A0=C2=A0
    =
    Thanks,
    =
    Dhruv
    --000000000000f4d0d705b44a584a-- From nobody Tue Nov 17 01:53:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 799B63A0DBA; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 01:53:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2m2Perxwgou1; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 01:53:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9ADEB3A0C0E; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 01:53:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml737-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.206]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4Cb1SQ61rGz67F7S; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 17:52:06 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml737-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.218) by fraeml737-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 10:53:39 +0100 Received: from DGGEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.32) by fraeml737-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.1913.5 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 10:53:39 +0100 Received: from DGGEML529-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.6.220]) by DGGEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::89ed:853e:30a9:2a79%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 17:53:30 +0800 From: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" To: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" , "xiao.min2@zte.com.cn" CC: "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" , "fbrockne=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , "tpauly=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state Thread-Index: AQHWvLkTkAn5jFR/UE+awxVQkZJh3KnMFSgw Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 09:53:29 +0000 Message-ID: References: 5E408E0E-862E-480B-88FD-890098340EBC@apple.com, BYAPR11MB25847ACE60112CE82761253CDAE30@BYAPR11MB2584.namprd11.prod.outlook.com, C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB02CBD214@dggeml529-mbx.china.huawei.com <202011171552114583186@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.130] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB02CBEA49dggeml529mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state X-BeenThere: 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id 655663A0DDC; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 14:27:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x129.google.com with SMTP id s30so109698lfc.4; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 14:27:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1AScAi8g0ivXmX0+KMKYxqh33eFZH4bhmnx2n7dvgow=; b=TfUgref66hUvC+mT+MB6hVYWkv7uU15Co1AV8cSmoAtX8SiQsvJqGo0WJoOKh78IxP DDsZsk01HFwxpk1RPRmBN+J6DEBoxvL8DePJJpsrTuP2T2NBCbpaZoa5NDG/BLCznjMO FVqE33wQu94HmXqmdBvQ17km7SuY6o2g5RkV3qwcPq8JtC7etr0MSnac3LsBiuPC9x8p NAyvirelOd3g3HJHHwWDBqiF02GucVyWO1xVslEbQJAIpWHOdsfouGyHbL9Dwogs0QEv 6NpC455dXRrVTr9/gC7vJaFN5FOmUB8jG1l2lVDxGzJb4bBkHVmba1SctkDqHg8X8Tak l5tg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1AScAi8g0ivXmX0+KMKYxqh33eFZH4bhmnx2n7dvgow=; 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boundary="00000000000075883305b4550031" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 22:27:42 -0000 --00000000000075883305b4550031 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Rakesh, WG Chairs, and All, I've read the responses to my detailed comments. I don't think that only adding references will solve the problems with the documents. If authors are interested in addressing my comments, we can start working on solving them one by one. But I am very much concerned with the technical value of these drafts. And here's why I feel that the proposed documents don't provide a sound technical solution to the task of direct loss measurement. Please find my reasoning explaining my opinion of the *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm: - What is being proposed in these drafts? Drafts *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm propose a new protocol to support direct packet loss measurements. Note, that RFC 6374 includes a method for direct loss measurement in MPLS networks that is applicable to the SR-MPLS environment. Also, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv defines an extension to RFC 8762 STAMP, the Direct Measurement TLV, that supports the direct packet loss measurement. STAMP and all its extensions are applicable in IPv6 networks and, thus, can be used in the SRv6 domain. - How the proposed method of direct packet loss is related to TWAMP light and STAMP? There's no apparent technical relationship between *-twamp-srpm and TWAMP Light, or *-stamp-srpm drafts and STAMP. Drafts do not extend or re-use the basic mechanisms defined for TWAMP-Test and/or STAMP in their respective specifications. Rather than that, drafts introduce a new query-response mode and new formats of test packets that are decisively different from the formats defined in respective specifications. As a result, the new protocols are required to use different from used by TWAMP Light tr STAMP test session UDP port numbers on the responder. And that is another clear indication that the proposed mechanism represents a new protocol, neither extends TWAMP Light and/or STAMP nor updates their specifications. - Is there any advantage in introducing a dedicated packet format for the direct packet loss in STAMP comparing to using the Direct Measuremen= t TLV extension? Though it appears the using a dedicated packet format instead of TLV is more efficient, but the dedicated for the direct loss measurement format is likely to precede one or even two TLVs, Node Address TLV and Path TLV, defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. As a result, processing of the new packet with TLVs is unlikely to be more efficient and reduce the processing delay, than if using the Direct Measurement TLV as defined in draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv. - What are the potential benefits of specifying the return path in the new test packet's Sender Control Code? Using the Sender Control Code may require the use of the additional TLV that carries the return path information, Path TLV. If the ability to control the return path is required that can be achieved by augmenting the STAMP YANG data model (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang) rather than including the Path TLV in each test packet. Hence, there seem no technical requirements to introduce the Sender Control Code field in the Base STAMP format defined in RFC 8762. - What is the relationship between the *-srpm drafts and BFD? Some text in the *-srpm drafts suggest that the proposed method can be used to monitor for the loss of a path continuity. That may be viewed as an alternative to the BFD protocol method for the detection of a network failure. If the discussion of Loopback mode and monitoring of liveness remain in the drafts, it seems logical that the BFD WG and BFD WG's Chairs be made aware of the proposals. I didn't take the liberty of adding BFD WG or its Chairs. I believe that decision to be made by the Chairs of IPPM And SPRING WGs. Regards, On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:10 PM Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi Rakesh, > thank you for your prompt response, much appreciated. I'll carefully read > your responses. Looking forward to the continued discussion. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:07 PM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) < > rgandhi@cisco.com> wrote: > >> Hi Greg, >> >> >> >> Thank you for your review comments. As mentioned in the IPPM session >> today, the email response was sent as attachments, see archive blow: >> >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/J503n-B2yOxF0urcHtGQKnqCRDE/ >> >> >> >> I am attaching them in word documents for the convenience. We can addres= s >> your comments below in the next revision of the document. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Rakesh >> >> >> >> >> >> *From: *Greg Mirsky >> *Date: *Friday, November 13, 2020 at 10:09 AM >> *To: *Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) >> *Cc: *Tommy Pauly , IPPM Chairs < >> ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org , >> IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) >> *Subject: *Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm >> and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm >> >> Hi Rakesh, >> >> thank you for your response to my review. Please find my follow-up notes >> in-lined below under the GIM>> tag. >> >> I hope you've found more detailed comments in the attachments >> (re-attached for your convenience). I'm looking forward to reading your >> responses to the detailed comments of all four drafts. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Greg >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:11 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) < >> rgandhi@cisco.com> wrote: >> >> Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents an= d >> providing the comments. Attached please find the email replies to your >> review sent earlier. The replies are copied inline below for convenienc= e, >> tagged with . >> >> >> >> >> >> *From: *ippm >> *Date: *Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM >> *To: *Tommy Pauly >> *Cc: *IPPM Chairs , spring-chairs@ietf.org < >> spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) >> *Subject: *Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm >> and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm >> >> Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG community, >> >> I've reviewed these drafts and have some comments to share. Below, pleas= e >> find my thoughts on whether these drafts can be adopted. More specific >> comments on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft a= nd >> its accompanying draft targetted to the SPRING WG) are in the attached >> documents. >> >> >> >> Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluated by >> answers to these three questions: >> >> =C2=B7 Is the document(s) reasonably well-written >> >> I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology from RFCs >> 4656/5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for >> Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, >> "congruent paths", are used in the documents without proper definitions. >> Other than that both drafts are readable and reasonably well-written. >> >> >> >> We can change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to >> Session-Reflector if it helps. >> >> GIM>> I believe that the consistency in terminology between the core RFC >> and what is intended as its extension is not only helpful to a reader bu= t, >> to the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications. >> >> There are many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, >> 5340, 8330, etc.) and term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without >> defining them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Havin= g >> said that, we can add a reference for them if it helps. >> >> GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. I think I need to clarify my >> questions. While a reference to any of RFCs you've mentioned, I don't th= ink >> that will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitaliz= ed >> while referenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can >> these be used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object? >> >> Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using the term "congruent >> path" in these drafts (using ASCII-art): >> >> C---------D >> >> / \ >> >> A----B E-----F >> >> \ / >> >> G------------H >> >> Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the network as >> A-B-C-D-E-F. From the definition of "congruent" as "two figures or objec= ts >> are congruent if they have the same shape and size, or if one has the sa= me >> shape and size as the mirror image of the other", path A-B-G-H-E-F is >> congruent to the SR tunnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to >> monitor a flow over the SR tunnel is out-of-band and will not produce an= y >> meaningful measurement. Of course, for the case of the extensions in >> drafts, direct loss measurement can be performed, as information collect= ed >> from node F. So, this example, in my opinion, illustrates two of my >> concerns: >> >> - using a congruent path for an active OAM protocol may produce >> information that does not reflect the condition experienced by the >> monitored flow. It seems that the terminology should reflect the >> fundamental requirement for using active OAM to maintain the test pac= kets >> in-band with the monitored flow. >> - there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band active >> OAM protocol for direct packet loss measurement. As demonstrated in t= his >> example, direct packet loss can be performed using an out-of-band >> mechanism, e.g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG da= ta >> model. >> >> >> >> =C2=B7 Does the document solve a real problem? >> >> No, it appears that both TWAMP and STAMP drafts define a new >> performance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/TWAM= P >> and STAMP functionality in the respective drafts, and adding the ability= to >> collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find sufficient >> technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, >> extending the existing OAM mechanisms like ICMP multi-part message >> extension per RFC 4884. >> >> >> >> There is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as >> synthetic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP >> and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthe= tic >> packet loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a >> good option here. >> >> GIM>> I agree with the requirements you've listed (though the SPRING WG >> OAM requirements document >> >> has been abandoned and expired 3+ years ago). I believe that there's no >> sufficient technical reason to use OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for exclusive direc= t >> packet loss measurement. >> >> >> >> =C2=B7 Is the proposed solution technically viable? >> >> There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced >> by the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the >> proposed solutions. >> >> >> >> About your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Securit= y >> section in RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security >> Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provision= ed >> in the domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other than this,= I >> did not find any other security related issue in your review. >> >> GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference sufficiently explains why the >> use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, does not cre= ate >> a security risk for the protocol. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Rakesh >> >> >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Greg >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly > 40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >> >> Hello IPPM, >> >> >> >> For the past few meetings, we=E2=80=99ve had updates on the work in the = SPRING WG >> that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making >> extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided >> that it would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extensio= n >> work in the IPPM WG. >> >> >> >> As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption >> for draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. >> >> >> >> The documents are here: >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 >> >> >> The related SPRING documents are here: >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 >> >> >> >> Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether or no= t >> you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email= . >> Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, = on *Monday, >> November 16*. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Tommy & Ian >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ippm mailing list >> ippm@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >> >> --00000000000075883305b4550031 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Rakesh, WG Chairs, and All,
    I've read the respo= nses to my detailed comments. I don't think that only adding references= will solve the problems with the documents. If authors are interested in a= ddressing my comments, we can start working on solving=C2=A0them one by one= . But I am very much concerned with the technical value of these drafts. An= d here's why I feel that the proposed documents don't provide a sou= nd technical solution to the task of direct loss measurement.=C2=A0Please f= ind my reasoning explaining=C2=A0my opinion of the *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp= -srpm:
    • What is being proposed in these drafts?
    <= blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px">
    Drafts = *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm propose a new protocol to support direct pack= et loss measurements. Note, that RFC 6374 includes a method for direct loss= measurement in MPLS networks that is applicable to the SR-MPLS environment= . Also, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv defines an extension to RFC 8762 S= TAMP, the Direct Measurement TLV, that supports the direct packet loss meas= urement. STAMP and all its extensions are applicable in IPv6 networks and, = thus, can be used in the SRv6 domain.
    • How the pro= posed method of direct packet loss is related to TWAMP light and STAMP?
    There's no apparent technical relationship between *-twamp-srpm a= nd TWAMP Light, or *-stamp-srpm drafts and STAMP. Drafts do not extend or r= e-use the basic mechanisms defined for=C2=A0 TWAMP-Test and/or STAMP in the= ir respective specifications. Rather than that, drafts introduce a new quer= y-response mode and new formats of test packets that are decisively differe= nt from the formats defined in respective specifications. As a result, the = new protocols are required to use different from used by TWAMP Light tr STA= MP test session UDP port numbers on the responder. And that is another clea= r indication that the proposed mechanism represents a new protocol, neither= extends TWAMP Light and/or STAMP nor updates their specifications.
    • Is there any advantage in introducing a dedicated packet= format for the direct packet loss in STAMP comparing to using the Direct M= easurement TLV extension?
    Though it appears the using a dedicated packet form= at instead of TLV is more efficient, but the dedicated for the direct loss = measurement format is likely to precede one or even two TLVs, Node Address = TLV and Path TLV, defined in=C2=A0draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. As a result= , processing of the new packet with TLVs is unlikely to be more efficient a= nd reduce the processing delay, than if using the Direct Measurement TLV as= defined in draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv.
    • What = are the potential benefits of specifying the return path in the new test pa= cket's Sender Control Code?
    Using the Sender Control Code may require the= use of the additional TLV that carries the return path information, Path T= LV. If the ability to control the return path is required that can be achie= ved by augmenting the STAMP YANG data model (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang) ra= ther than including the Path TLV in each test packet. Hence, there seem no = technical requirements to introduce the Sender Control Code field in the Ba= se STAMP format defined in RFC 8762.
    • What is the re= lationship between the *-srpm drafts and BFD?
    Some text in the *-srpm drafts = suggest that the proposed method can be used=C2=A0to monitor for the loss o= f a path continuity. That may be viewed as an alternative to the BFD protoc= ol method for the detection of a network failure. If the discussion of Loop= back mode and monitoring of liveness remain in the drafts, it seems logical= that the BFD WG and BFD WG's Chairs be made aware of the proposals. I = didn't take the liberty of adding BFD WG or its Chairs. I believe that = decision to be made by the Chairs of IPPM And SPRING WGs.


    Regards,



    On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10= :10 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
    Hi Rakesh,
    thank you for y= our prompt response,=C2=A0much appreciated. I'll carefully read your re= sponses. Looking forward to the continued discussion.

    <= div>Regards,
    Greg

    On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:07 PM Rakesh Ga= ndhi (rgandhi) <r= gandhi@cisco.com> wrote:

    Hi Greg,

    =C2=A0

    Thank you for your review comments. As mentioned in = the IPPM session today, the email response was sent as attachments, see arc= hive blow:

    https://mailarchive.ietf.= org/arch/msg/ippm/J503n-B2yOxF0urcHtGQKnqCRDE/

    =C2=A0

    I am attaching them in word documents for the conven= ience. We can address your comments below in the next revision of the docum= ent.

    =C2=A0

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com= >
    Date: Friday, November 13, 2020 at 10:09 AM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com>
    Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IPPM Chairs &l= t;ippm-chairs@iet= f.org>, = spring-chairs@ietf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi Rakesh,

    thank you for your response to my review. Please fin= d my follow-up notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.

    I hope you've found more detailed comments in th= e attachments (re-attached for your convenience). I'm looking forward t= o reading your responses=C2=A0to the detailed comments of all four drafts.<= u>

    =C2=A0

    Regards,

    Greg

    =C2=A0

    On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:11 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgand= hi) <rgandhi@cisc= o.com> wrote:

    Thank you Greg = for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and providing the co= mments.=C2=A0 Attached please find the email replies to your review sent earlier.=C2=A0 The replies are copied inline below for convenience, t= agged with <RG00>.

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org>= ;
    Date: Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM
    To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@i= etf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG community,

    I've reviewed these drafts and have some comment= s to share. Below, please find my thoughts on whether these drafts can be a= dopted. More specific comments on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft and its accompanying=C2=A0draft tar= getted=C2=A0to the SPRING WG) are in the attached documents.<= /p>

    =C2=A0

    Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document ca= n be evaluated=C2=A0by answers to these three questions:

    =C2=B7=C2=A0 Is the document(s) reasonably well-written

    I've got surprised that the drafts don't u= se the terminology from RFCs 4656/5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms= , e.g., Links, "congruent paths", are used in the documents witho= ut proper definitions. Other than that both drafts are readable and reasona= bly well-written.

    =C2=A0

    <RG00> We= can change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Reflector if = it helps.=C2=A0

    GIM>> I believe that the consistency in termin= ology between the core RFC and what is intended as its extension is not onl= y helpful to a reader but, to the best of my understanding, is required for= IETF specifications.

    <RG00> Th= ere are many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340, 8330, e= tc.) and term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without defining them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having said that= , we can add a reference for them if it helps.

    GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. I thin= k I need to clarify my questions. While a reference to any of RFCs you'= ve mentioned, I don't think that will address my concern. In reviewed d= ocuments, "Link" is capitalized while referenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can these be = used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object?

    Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using= the term "congruent path" in these drafts (using ASCII-art):<= /u>

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0C---------D

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0\

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A----B=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0E-----F

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0\=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0G------------H

    Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the= network as A-B-C-D-E-F. From the definition of "congruent" as &q= uot;two figures or objects are congruent if they have the same shape and si= ze, or if one has the same shape and size as the mirror image of the other", path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to the SR t= unnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to monitor a flow over the SR= tunnel is out-of-band and will not produce any meaningful measurement. Of = course, for the case of the extensions in drafts, direct loss measurement can be performed, as information collec= ted from node F. So, this example, in my opinion, illustrates two of my con= cerns:

    • using a congruent path for an active OAM protocol may produce information t= hat does not reflect the condition experienced by the monitored flow. It se= ems that the terminology should reflect the fundamental requirement for usi= ng active OAM to maintain the test packets in-band with the monitored flow.
    • there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band active OAM pro= tocol for direct packet loss measurement. As demonstrated in this example, = direct packet loss can be performed using an out-of-band mechanism, e.g., S= NMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG data model.

    =C2=A0

    =C2=B7=C2=A0 Does the document solve a real problem?

    No, it appears that=C2=A0 both TWAMP and STAMP drafts=C2=A0=C2=A0define a new performance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/= TWAMP and STAMP functionality in the respective drafts, and adding the abil= ity to collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't f= ind sufficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing OAM mechanisms= like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884.<= /p>

    =C2=A0

    <RG00> Th= ere is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as synthetic and = direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packet l= oss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a good option= here.

    GIM>> I agree with the=C2=A0requirements you&#= 39;ve listed (though the SPRING WG OAM requirements document has been aba= ndoned and expired 3+ years ago). I believe that there's no sufficient = technical reason=C2=A0to use OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for exclusive direct packet loss measurement.=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    =C2=B7=C2=A0 Is the proposed solution technically viable?<= /p>

    There are too many unaddressed aspects, particular= ly the risk introduced by the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the proposed solutions.

    =C2=A0

    <RG00> Ab= out your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security section in= RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in the = domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other than this, I did not= find any other security related issue in your review.=

    GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference = sufficiently explains why the use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is no= t decremental, does not create a security risk for the protocol.<= /u>

    =C2=A0

    Thanks,<= u>

    Rakesh

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    Regards,

    Greg

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly <tpa= uly=3D40app= le.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

    Hello IPPM,

    =C2=A0

    For the past few meetings, we=E2=80=99ve had updates= on the work in the SPRING WG that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those d= ocuments ended up making extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it would be best to split the d= ocuments and track the IPPM extension work in the IPPM WG.

    =C2=A0

    As such, we are starting a Working Group call for ad= option for=C2=A0draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-sr= pm.

    =C2=A0

    Please provide your feedback on these documents, and= state whether or not you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by rep= lying to this email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Monday, November 16.<= u>

    =C2=A0

    Best,

    Tommy & Ian

    _______________________________________________
    ippm mailing list
    ippm@ietf.org
    ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

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Tue, 17 Nov 2020 23:40:41 +0000 From: "Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi)" To: Greg Mirsky CC: Tommy Pauly , IPPM Chairs , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" , spring Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Thread-Index: AQHWrutqxCpe6zKAOkqELdQ0D7z91KnAEieAgAGGXIqABKdzAIAEHsI6gAAB1ACAAqNDgIAAE4+W Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 23:40:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-CA, en-US Content-Language: en-CA X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [174.112.172.213] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 9e579edb-d9ae-4364-04f7-08d88b5231c4 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM6PR11MB3308: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: yXvuPHwY3XsHrbolTW66kzhnWSiDylnYfig4+4TMdilgeY0NnfxYaDORaRoBWJX8cTCIX7ReJ0fhw7JaVjxHY0E/vC/vWx2BBHngphQkehsErYQvGVoInRiCNMdtwwHrjVpwf8d8JLlktoA3jKvfrH0sepg94pYPGCGiaNDVR89topWoq1aq0gXKpzFVI+CatXdCUfCijz0cqYcIf5/yI4Ya8rgKlo7uOLH0S0r8TJcen46bpidne54Ua4JoB+PZ5ByKaFq5k9mEmbOjRXklJFX+Sxs1JopHYO6vpLe+GuEiawYIRNYPI6jPFphkqYvnHgrjDKvS8k7j2Xb5ebtSZ1yY6N72r7Egm5MOSofHhBYpnQzS29Mm/JDckd15jagKJ1lqt+YR4X21SToNwb0m4w== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Greg, Thank you for your review and discussions on the drafts. This will help imp= rove the work on this important work. Please see replies inline with .. From: Greg Mirsky Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 5:27 PM To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) Cc: Tommy Pauly , IPPM Chairs , spring-chairs@ietf.org , IETF IPPM = WG (ippm@ietf.org) , spring Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Rakesh, WG Chairs, and All, I've read the responses to my detailed comments. I don't think that only ad= ding references will solve the problems with the documents. If authors are = interested in addressing my comments, we can start working on solving them = one by one. As mentioned in previous replies, we can add references for the well-k= nown terms =93Links=94, =93Congruent Paths=94, =93SR Path=94. If you prefer= , we can define them here. For Zero checksum field, we can add a reference = for the RFC 6936 in Security section and also add some text for it. Will be= happy to work with you to address these. But I am very much concerned with the technical value of these drafts. And = here's why I feel that the proposed documents don't provide a sound technic= al solution to the task of direct loss measurement. Please find my reasonin= g explaining my opinion of the *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm: * What is being proposed in these drafts? Drafts *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm propose a new protocol to support dire= ct packet loss measurements. Note, that RFC 6374 includes a method for dire= ct loss measurement in MPLS networks that is applicable to the SR-MPLS envi= ronment. Also, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv defines an extension to RFC= 8762 STAMP, the Direct Measurement TLV, that supports the direct packet lo= ss measurement. STAMP and all its extensions are applicable in IPv6 network= s and, thus, can be used in the SRv6 domain. As mentioned in previous replies, both RFC 6374 (in Section 4.2) and I= TU Y.1731 (in Section 8.1) define stand-alone messages for collecting TX an= d RX counters for direct-mode loss measurement. TWAMP/STAMP messages define= d in the drafts are equivalent of them that take advantage of the widely de= ployed TWAMP protocol and as well this same protocol can be deployed in IPv= 4/IPv6/MPLS/SRv6/EVPN/etc. networks. * How the proposed method of direct packet loss is related to TWAMP lig= ht and STAMP? There's no apparent technical relationship between *-twamp-srpm and TWAMP L= ight, or *-stamp-srpm drafts and STAMP. Drafts do not extend or re-use the = basic mechanisms defined for TWAMP-Test and/or STAMP in their respective s= pecifications. Rather than that, drafts introduce a new query-response mode= and new formats of test packets that are decisively different from the for= mats defined in respective specifications. As a result, the new protocols a= re required to use different from used by TWAMP Light tr STAMP test session= UDP port numbers on the responder. And that is another clear indication th= at the proposed mechanism represents a new protocol, neither extends TWAMP = Light and/or STAMP nor updates their specifications. As mentioned in previous replies, other than timestamp vs. counter and= it=92s format, the messages and processing of them are the same for delay = and direct-mode loss measurement. * Is there any advantage in introducing a dedicated packet format for t= he direct packet loss in STAMP comparing to using the Direct Measurement TL= V extension? Though it appears the using a dedicated packet format instead of TLV is mor= e efficient, but the dedicated for the direct loss measurement format is li= kely to precede one or even two TLVs, Node Address TLV and Path TLV, define= d in draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. As a result, processing of the new packe= t with TLVs is unlikely to be more efficient and reduce the processing dela= y, than if using the Direct Measurement TLV as defined in draft-ietf-ippm-s= tamp-option-tlv. As mentioned in previous replies, this is explained in Section 1 of th= e draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm. For link loss measurement (direct-mode), there is = no TLV required for example. For direct-mode loss measurement in SR network= s, it would typically be forward direction packet loss measurement (and not= bidirectional). * What are the potential benefits of specifying the return path in the = new test packet's Sender Control Code? Using the Sender Control Code may require the use of the additional TLV tha= t carries the return path information, Path TLV. If the ability to control = the return path is required that can be achieved by augmenting the STAMP YA= NG data model (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang) rather than including the Path T= LV in each test packet. Hence, there seem no technical requirements to intr= oduce the Sender Control Code field in the Base STAMP format defined in RFC= 8762. Per session basis between different sender nodes and this reflector no= de, some senders will request the replies in-band (e.g. for two-way mode). = Sessions are provisioned on the Sender nodes and reflector simply reflects = based on the received test-packet (e.g. for a bidirectional SR path). This = is also similar to as described Section 3.1 in RFC 6374, top of page 22. Th= ere is no need to create a such state for each session on the reflector nod= e and create a scale limitation. Recall that we are trying to avoid the sca= le limitation by eliminating the Control protocol signaling. * What is the relationship between the *-srpm drafts and BFD? Some text in the *-srpm drafts suggest that the proposed method can be used= to monitor for the loss of a path continuity. That may be viewed as an alt= ernative to the BFD protocol method for the detection of a network failure.= If the discussion of Loopback mode and monitoring of liveness remain in th= e drafts, it seems logical that the BFD WG and BFD WG's Chairs be made awar= e of the proposals. I didn't take the liberty of adding BFD WG or its Chair= s. I believe that decision to be made by the Chairs of IPPM And SPRING WGs. As mentioned in previous replies, STAMP/TWAMP test messages are also u= sed today for synthetic packet loss measurement which can be also used to d= etect/monitor connection loss (performance metric). The draft simply highli= ghts this obvious metric. This is also very similar to what is described in= ITU Y.1731, Section 7.1. Thanks, Rakesh Regards, On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:10 PM Greg Mirsky > wrote: Hi Rakesh, thank you for your prompt response, much appreciated. I'll carefully read y= our responses. Looking forward to the continued discussion. Regards, Greg On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:07 PM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > wrote: Hi Greg, Thank you for your review comments. As mentioned in the IPPM session today,= the email response was sent as attachments, see archive blow: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/J503n-B2yOxF0urcHtGQKnqCRDE/ I am attaching them in word documents for the convenience. We can address y= our comments below in the next revision of the document. Thanks, Rakesh From: Greg Mirsky > Date: Friday, November 13, 2020 at 10:09 AM To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > Cc: Tommy Pauly >, IPPM Chairs >, spring-chairs@ietf.org >, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Rakesh, thank you for your response to my review. Please find my follow-up notes in= -lined below under the GIM>> tag. I hope you've found more detailed comments in the attachments (re-attached = for your convenience). I'm looking forward to reading your responses to the= detailed comments of all four drafts. Regards, Greg On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:11 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > wrote: Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and p= roviding the comments. Attached please find the email replies to your revi= ew sent earlier. The replies are copied inline below for convenience, tagg= ed with . From: ippm > Date: Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM To: Tommy Pauly > Cc: IPPM Chairs >, spring= -chairs@ietf.org >, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG community, I've reviewed these drafts and have some comments to share. Below, please f= ind my thoughts on whether these drafts can be adopted. More specific comme= nts on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft and its a= ccompanying draft targetted to the SPRING WG) are in the attached documents= . Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluated by answers= to these three questions: =95 Is the document(s) reasonably well-written I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology from RFCs 4656= /5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender = and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", ar= e used in the documents without proper definitions. Other than that both dr= afts are readable and reasonably well-written. We can change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Refl= ector if it helps. GIM>> I believe that the consistency in terminology between the core RFC an= d what is intended as its extension is not only helpful to a reader but, to= the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications. There are many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340= , 8330, etc.) and term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without definin= g them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having said tha= t, we can add a reference for them if it helps. GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. I think I need to clarify my questi= ons. While a reference to any of RFCs you've mentioned, I don't think that = will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitalized while= referenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can these be= used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object? Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using the term "congruent path" = in these drafts (using ASCII-art): C---------D / \ A----B E-----F \ / G------------H Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the network as A-B-C-D-E-F= . From the definition of "congruent" as "two figures or objects are congrue= nt if they have the same shape and size, or if one has the same shape and s= ize as the mirror image of the other", path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to the= SR tunnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to monitor a flow over t= he SR tunnel is out-of-band and will not produce any meaningful measurement= . Of course, for the case of the extensions in drafts, direct loss measurem= ent can be performed, as information collected from node F. So, this exampl= e, in my opinion, illustrates two of my concerns: * using a congruent path for an active OAM protocol may produce informa= tion that does not reflect the condition experienced by the monitored flow.= It seems that the terminology should reflect the fundamental requirement f= or using active OAM to maintain the test packets in-band with the monitored= flow. * there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band active O= AM protocol for direct packet loss measurement. As demonstrated in this exa= mple, direct packet loss can be performed using an out-of-band mechanism, e= .g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG data model. =95 Does the document solve a real problem? No, it appears that both TWAMP and STAMP drafts define a new performance = measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/TWAMP and STAMP fun= ctionality in the respective drafts, and adding the ability to collect coun= ters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find sufficient technical argument= s for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing O= AM mechanisms like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884. There is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as synth= etic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWA= MP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packet= loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a good opti= on here. GIM>> I agree with the requirements you've listed (though the SPRING WG OAM= requirements document has been abandoned and expired 3+ years ago). I believe th= at there's no sufficient technical reason to use OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for excl= usive direct packet loss measurement. =95 Is the proposed solution technically viable? There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced by= the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the propose= d solutions. About your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security s= ection in RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Secti= on as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in th= e domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other than this, I did n= ot find any other security related issue in your review. GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference sufficiently explains why the use= of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, does not create a = security risk for the protocol. Thanks, Rakesh Regards, Greg On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly > wrote: Hello IPPM, For the past few meetings, we=92ve had updates on the work in the SPRING WG= that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making exte= nsions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it= would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in = the IPPM WG. As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption for draft-gandhi= -ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. The documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 The related SPRING documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether or not y= ou believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Pl= ease provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mo= nday, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --_000_DM6PR11MB31151E1EBD24ADBE2170E2A3BFE20DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hi Greg,

     

    Thank you for your rev= iew and discussions on the drafts. This will help improve the work on this = important work.

    Please see replies inl= ine with <RG>..

     

     

    From: Greg Mirsky <gre= gimirsky@gmail.com>
    Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 5:27 PM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com>
    Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IPPM Ch= airs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org <spring-chairs= @ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>, spring &= lt;spring@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi Rakesh, WG Chairs, and All,

    I've read the responses to my detailed comments. I d= on't think that only adding references will solve the problems with the doc= uments. If authors are interested in addressing my comments, we can start w= orking on solving them one by one.

     

    <RG> As mentione= d in previous replies, we can add references for the well-known terms =93Li= nks=94, =93Congruent Paths=94, =93SR Path=94. If you prefer, we can define them here. For Zero checksum field, we can add a reference f= or the RFC 6936 in Security section and also = add some text for it. Will be happy to work with you to address these.

     

    But I am very much concerned with the technical valu= e of these drafts. And here's why I feel that the proposed documents don't = provide a sound technical solution to the task of direct loss measurement.&= nbsp;Please find my reasoning explaining my opinion of the *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm:

    • What is being proposed in these drafts?

    Drafts *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm propose a new p= rotocol to support direct packet loss measurements. Note, that RFC 6374 inc= ludes a method for direct loss measurement in MPLS networks that is applica= ble to the SR-MPLS environment. Also, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv defines an extension to RFC 8762 STAMP, t= he Direct Measurement TLV, that supports the direct packet loss measurement= . STAMP and all its extensions are applicable in IPv6 networks and, thus, c= an be used in the SRv6 domain.

     

    <RG> As mentione= d in previous replies, both RFC 6374 (in Section 4.2) and ITU Y.1731 (in Se= ction 8.1) define stand-alone messages for collecting TX and RX counters for direct-mode loss measurement. TWAMP/STAM= P messages defined in the drafts are equivalent of them that take advantage= of the widely deployed TWAMP protocol and as well this same protocol can b= e deployed in IPv4/IPv6/MPLS/SRv6/EVPN/etc. networks.

     

    • How the proposed method of direct packet loss is related to TWAMP light and= STAMP?

    There's no apparent technical relationship between *= -twamp-srpm and TWAMP Light, or *-stamp-srpm drafts and STAMP. Drafts do no= t extend or re-use the basic mechanisms defined for  TWAMP-Test and/or= STAMP in their respective specifications. Rather than that, drafts introduce a new query-response mode and new forma= ts of test packets that are decisively different from the formats defined i= n respective specifications. As a result, the new protocols are required to= use different from used by TWAMP Light tr STAMP test session UDP port numbers on the responder. And that is= another clear indication that the proposed mechanism represents a new prot= ocol, neither extends TWAMP Light and/or STAMP nor updates their specificat= ions.

     

    <RG> As mentione= d in previous replies, other than timestamp vs. counter and it=92s format, = the messages and processing of them are the same for delay and direct-mode loss measurement.

    • Is there any advantage in introducing a dedicated packet format for the dir= ect packet loss in STAMP comparing to using the Direct Measurement TLV exte= nsion?

    Though it appears the using a dedicated packet forma= t instead of TLV is more efficient, but the dedicated for the direct loss m= easurement format is likely to precede one or even two TLVs, Node Address T= LV and Path TLV, defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. As a result, processing of the new packet with TLVs is unlikely to be more= efficient and reduce the processing delay, than if using the Direct Measur= ement TLV as defined in draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv.

     

    <RG> As mentione= d in previous replies, this is explained in Section 1 of the draft-= gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm. For link loss measurement (direct-mode= ), there is no TLV required for example. For direct-mode loss measurement i= n SR networks, it would typically be forward direction packet loss measurement (and not bidi= rectional).

     

     

    • What are the potential benefits of specifying the return path in the new te= st packet's Sender Control Code?

    Using the Sender Control Code may require the use of= the additional TLV that carries the return path information, Path TLV. If = the ability to control the return path is required that can be achieved by = augmenting the STAMP YANG data model (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang) rather than including the Path TLV in each te= st packet. Hence, there seem no technical requirements to introduce the Sen= der Control Code field in the Base STAMP format defined in RFC 8762.

     

    <RG> Per session= basis between different sender nodes and this reflector node, some senders= will request the replies in-band (e.g. for two-way mode). Sessions are provisioned on the Sender nodes and reflector = simply reflects based on the received test-packet (e.g. for a bidirectional= SR path). This is also similar to as described Section 3.1 in RFC 6374, to= p of page 22. There is no need to create a such state for each session on the reflector node and create a sc= ale limitation. Recall that we are trying to avoid the scale limitation by = eliminating the Control protocol signaling.

     

    • What is the relationship between the *-srpm drafts and BFD?
      • =

    Some text in the *-srpm drafts suggest that the prop= osed method can be used to monitor for the loss of a path continuity. = That may be viewed as an alternative to the BFD protocol method for the det= ection of a network failure. If the discussion of Loopback mode and monitoring of liveness remain in the drafts, it seems= logical that the BFD WG and BFD WG's Chairs be made aware of the proposals= . I didn't take the liberty of adding BFD WG or its Chairs. I believe that = decision to be made by the Chairs of IPPM And SPRING WGs.

     

    <RG> As mentione= d in previous replies, STAMP/TWAMP test messages are also use= d today for synthetic packet loss measurement which can be also used to detect/m= onitor connection loss (performance metric). The draft simply highlights th= is obvious metric. This is also very similar to what is described in ITU Y.= 1731, Section 7.1.

     

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

     

    Regards,

     

     

    On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:10 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.c= om> wrote:

    Hi Rakesh,

    thank you for your prompt response, much apprec= iated. I'll carefully read your responses. Looking forward to the continued= discussion.

     

    Regards,

    Greg

     

    On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:07 PM Rakesh Gandhi (rgan= dhi) <rgandhi@cis= co.com> wrote:

    Hi Greg,

     

    Thank you for your review comments. As mentioned in the IPPM sessi= on today, the email response was sent as attachments, see archive blow:

    https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i= ppm/J503n-B2yOxF0urcHtGQKnqCRDE/

     

    I am attaching them in word documents for the convenience. We can = address your comments below in the next revision of the document.

     

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

     

     

    From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.c= om>
    Date: Friday, November 13, 2020 at 10:09 AM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com>
    Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IPPM Chairs &l= t;ippm-chairs@iet= f.org>, spring-chairs@i= etf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi Rakesh,

    thank you for your response to my review. Please find my follow-up= notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.

    I hope you've found more detailed comments in the attachments (re-= attached for your convenience). I'm looking forward to reading your respons= es to the detailed comments of all four drafts.

     

    Regards,

    Greg

     

    On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:11 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com> = wrote:

    Thank you Greg for taking time for t= horoughly reviewing the documents and providing the comments.  Attache= d please find the email replies to your review sent earlier.  The replies are copied inline below for convenience, t= agged with <RG00>.

     

     

    From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org&= gt;
    Date: Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM
    To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@i= etf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG community,

    I've reviewed these drafts and have some comments to share. Below,= please find my thoughts on whether these drafts can be adopted. More speci= fic comments on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft and its accompanying draft tar= getted to the SPRING WG) are in the attached documents.

     

    Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluat= ed by answers to these three questions:

    =B7  Is the document(s) reasonably well-written

    I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology f= rom RFCs 4656/5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms= , e.g., Links, "congruent paths", are used in the documents witho= ut proper definitions. Other than that both drafts are readable and reasona= bly well-written.

     

    <RG00> We can change Sender to= Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Reflector if it helps. 

    GIM>> I believe that the consistency in terminology between = the core RFC and what is intended as its extension is not only helpful to a= reader but, to the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications.

    <RG00> There are many existing= RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340, 8330, etc.) and term Congrue= nt Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without defining them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having said that= , we can add a reference for them if it helps.

    GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. I think I need to cl= arify my questions. While a reference to any of RFCs you've mentioned, I do= n't think that will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitalized while referenced RFCs = used the lower case form for the term "link". Can these be used i= nterchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object?

    Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using the term "co= ngruent path" in these drafts (using ASCII-art):

                      &nb= sp;    C---------D

                      &nb= sp;  /                 \<= o:p>

                A----B    &nbs= p;              E-----F

                      &nb= sp;  \                  /=

                      &nb= sp;  G------------H

    Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the network as A-= B-C-D-E-F. From the definition of "congruent" as "two figure= s or objects are congruent if they have the same shape and size, or if one has the same shape and size as the mirror image of the= other", path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to the SR tunnel. But a packet = of an active OAM intended to monitor a flow over the SR tunnel is out-of-ba= nd and will not produce any meaningful measurement. Of course, for the case of the extensions in drafts, direct l= oss measurement can be performed, as information collected from node F. So,= this example, in my opinion, illustrates two of my concerns:

    • using a congruent path for an active OAM protocol may produce information t= hat does not reflect the condition experienced by the monitored flow. It se= ems that the terminology should reflect the fundamental requirement for usi= ng active OAM to maintain the test packets in-band with the monitored flow.
    • there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band active OAM pro= tocol for direct packet loss measurement. As demonstrated in this example, = direct packet loss can be performed using an out-of-band mechanism, e.g., S= NMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG data model.

     

    =B7  Does the document solve a real problem?

    No, it appears that  both TWAMP and STAMP drafts  d= efine a new performance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/= TWAMP and STAMP functionality in the respective drafts, and adding the abil= ity to collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find = sufficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing OAM mechanisms= like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884.

     

    <RG00> There is a requirement = to measure performance delay as well as synthetic and direct-mode packet lo= ss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packet l= oss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a good option= here.

    GIM>> I agree with the requirements you've listed (thou= gh the SPRING WG OAM requirements document has been abandoned and expired 3+ y= ears ago). I believe that there's no sufficient technical reason to us= e OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for exclusive direct packet loss measurement. 

     

    =B7  Is the proposed solution technically viable?

    There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk = introduced by the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the proposed solutions.

     

    <RG00> About your comment on z= ero checksum, this is described in Security section in RFC 6936. We will ad= d reference to this RFC in our Security Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in the = domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other than this, I did not= find any other security related issue in your review.

    GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference sufficiently expla= ins why the use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, doe= s not create a security risk for the protocol.

     

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

     

     

    Regards,

    Greg

     

     

     

     

    On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.= ietf.org> wrote:

    Hello IPPM,

     

    For the past few meetings, we=92ve had updates on the work in the = SPRING WG that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up ma= king extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it would be best to split the d= ocuments and track the IPPM extension work in the IPPM WG.

     

    As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption for&nbs= p;draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm.=

     

    Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether= or not you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this = email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Monday, November 16.<= o:p>

     

    Best,

    Tommy & Ian

    _______________________________________________
    ippm mailing list
    ippm@ietf.org
    ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

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Wed, 18 Nov 2020 02:45:43 +0000 From: "Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi)" To: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" , Tommy Pauly , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" CC: IPPM Chairs , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Thread-Index: AQHWrutqxCpe6zKAOkqELdQ0D7z91KnMHc4AgAEtWac= Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 02:45:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-CA, en-US Content-Language: en-CA X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: huawei.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;huawei.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [174.112.172.213] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 76306970-4eed-4a45-f1c6-08d88b6c0b18 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM6PR11MB4658: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: I4kT20BhCVTK8t9smC3ny2pFX1foes+7h4PFczFn45HdSILs1WAw5ReYVecSh6n7aaSsb9VtB3uFkULhVa4uCTHoiwT0EqZBkCXC4rvasZGuF/CYAxOUthytbCzoXsfzne+ZJZA7TkT1ISTrRSbyC1fu+Uw2GJTu+nRHZXeLwAb+ui5x0LC0PpYXwID1oSLvZSnHMBZB+wrJot9ew3kUGj/FPGWHtDb5kwJGQ4i9c8QK83E2GSSvz/S30UwZhvsQk23lf76GRJsLZpOt2k0t6xXHPAetOss9ZNmEajVsQcPsIs/MS3UE6wCRoo2uIM4qCXeeeqeWgH+/mX0LTgm8uWEHcAsnjWGTtsqcebh2YGGZxUKHqTzm+KpPEreVW4M7MYCXmUsy52CAaEpY5u0UmQ== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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boundary="_000_DM6PR11MB311581C9738D8B91272C7BEBBFE10DM6PR11MB3115namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR11MB3115.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 76306970-4eed-4a45-f1c6-08d88b6c0b18 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Nov 2020 02:45:43.1239 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 8+tOLuIfLZ0U8Lgz/ZqMilGvC9MVM0fEig5gN7vryqFpxnn50YIyiniA3X5BH0tBss911ugb1OheCikNNJVJTQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR11MB4658 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.14, xch-rcd-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-3.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 02:45:50 -0000 --_000_DM6PR11MB311581C9738D8B91272C7BEBBFE10DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you Cheng for your review comments. Please see inline replies with =85 From: ippm Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 3:44 AM To: Tommy Pauly , IETF IPPM WG (ippm@i= etf.org) Cc: IPPM Chairs , spring-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi IPPM, I support the adoption with some questions and comments. draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 1. Is draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 an Informational draft? This was based on review comment. We are Ok to change it to PS if WG i= s ok. 1. Do not require any IANA allocation? Related to 1. No. 1. The name is about TWAMP Light, but in draft short name , it is twamp. TWAMP Light method. 1. Can we use this method for other network except SR? I think yes. Yes. draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 1. Can we use this method for other network except SR? I think yes. Yes. Thanks, Rakesh Thanks, Cheng From: Tommy Pauly [mailto:tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org] Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2020 3:35 AM To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Cc: IPPM Chairs ; spring-chairs@ietf.org Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-g= andhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hello IPPM, For the past few meetings, we=92ve had updates on the work in the SPRING WG= that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making exte= nsions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it= would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in = the IPPM WG. As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption for draft-gandhi= -ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. The documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 The related SPRING documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether or not y= ou believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Pl= ease provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mo= nday, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian --_000_DM6PR11MB311581C9738D8B91272C7BEBBFE10DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Thank you Cheng for your review comments.

    Please see inline replies with <RG>=85

     

    From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 3:44 AM
    To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IETF IP= PM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org= <spring-chairs@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi IPPM,

     

    I support the adoption with some ques= tions and comments.

     

    draft= -gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00

    1. Is draft-gandhi-ippm-t= wamp-srpm-00 an Informational draft?

    <RG> This was based on review comment. We are = Ok to change it to PS if WG is ok.

     

    1. Do not require any IAN= A allocation? Related to 1.

    <RG> No.

     

    1. The name is about TWAM= P Light, but in draft short name , it is twamp.

    <RG> TWAMP Light method.

     

    1. Can we use this method= for other network except SR? I think yes.

    <RG> Yes.

     = ;

    draft= -gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00

    1. Can we use this method= for other network except SR? I think yes.

    <RG> Yes.

     

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

     

     

     = ;

    Thanks,

    Cheng

     

     

     

     

    From: Tommy Pauly [mailto:tpauly=3D4= 0apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org]
    Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2020 3:35 AM
    To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>; spring-chairs@ietf.org=
    Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and = draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

     

    Hello IPPM,

     

    For the past few meetings, we=92ve had updates on th= e work in the SPRING WG that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documen= ts ended up making extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING a= nd IPPM decided that it would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in the IPPM WG.

     

    As such, we are starting a Working Group call for ad= option for draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-sr= pm.

     

    Please provide your feedback on these documents, and= state whether or not you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by rep= lying to this email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF = 109 meeting week, on Monday, November 16.

     

    Best,

    Tommy & Ian

    --_000_DM6PR11MB311581C9738D8B91272C7BEBBFE10DM6PR11MB3115namp_-- From nobody Tue Nov 17 18:53:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57EDD3A102D; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 18:53:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DK6zTPWsWwqe; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 18:53:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 046A43A12D5; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 18:53:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml741-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.200]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4CbS4z3MDKz67Dm6; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 10:51:47 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml741-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.222) by fraeml741-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.222) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 03:53:21 +0100 Received: from DGGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.38) by fraeml741-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.222) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.1913.5 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 03:53:20 +0100 Received: from DGGEML529-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.6.220]) by DGGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::fca6:7568:4ee3:c776%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 10:53:14 +0800 From: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" To: "Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi)" , Tommy Pauly , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" CC: IPPM Chairs , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Thread-Index: AQGKoOKFYMy1u9FpGBTWyX9fi5E/sqpkOSNAgACozICAAIaIgA== Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 02:53:14 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.130] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB02CBF64Fdggeml529mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 02:53:26 -0000 --_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB02CBF64Fdggeml529mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, this addresses my concerns. One more comments, more text should be added to describe the counters. I th= ink the counter is associated with the measured flow instead of the Testing= flow. Correct? Transmit Counter (64-bit): The number of packets or octets sent by the sender node in the query message and by the reflector node in the response message. The counter is always written at the well-known location in the probe query and response messages. Regarding the extensions, I think they are valuable. Thanks, Cheng From: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) [mailto:rgandhi@cisco.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 10:46 AM To: Chengli (Cheng Li) ; Tommy Pauly ; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Cc: IPPM Chairs ; spring-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Thank you Cheng for your review comments. Please see inline replies with ... From: ippm > Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 3:44 AM To: Tommy Pauly >, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) = > Cc: IPPM Chairs >, spring= -chairs@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi IPPM, I support the adoption with some questions and comments. draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 1. Is draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 an Informational draft? This was based on review comment. We are Ok to change it to PS if WG i= s ok. 1. Do not require any IANA allocation? Related to 1. No. 1. The name is about TWAMP Light, but in draft short name , it is twamp. TWAMP Light method. 1. Can we use this method for other network except SR? I think yes. Yes. draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 1. Can we use this method for other network except SR? I think yes. Yes. Thanks, Rakesh Thanks, Cheng From: Tommy Pauly [mailto:tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org] Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2020 3:35 AM To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Cc: IPPM Chairs >; spring= -chairs@ietf.org Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-g= andhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hello IPPM, For the past few meetings, we've had updates on the work in the SPRING WG t= hat was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making extens= ions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it w= ould be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in th= e IPPM WG. As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption for draft-gandhi= -ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. The documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 The related SPRING documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether or not y= ou believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Pl= ease provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mo= nday, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian --_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB02CBF64Fdggeml529mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Thanks, this addresses my concerns.

     

    One more comments, more text should b= e added to describe the counters. I think the counter is associated with th= e measured flow instead of the Testing flow. Correct?

     

     

    Transmit Counter (64-bit): The number of packe= ts or octets sent by

       the sender node in the query mess= age and by the reflector node in the

       response message.  The count= er is always written at the well-known

       location in the probe query and r= esponse messages.

     

    Regarding the extensions, I think the= y are valuable.

     

    Thanks,

    Cheng

     

    From: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) [mailt= o:rgandhi@cisco.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 10:46 AM
    To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <c.l@huawei.com>; Tommy Pauly <tpaul= y=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@i= etf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>; spring-chairs@ietf.org=
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

     

    Thank you Cheng for your review comm= ents.

    Please see inline replies with <R= G>…

     

    From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org>
    Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 3:44 AM
    To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-cha= irs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi IPPM,

     

    I support the adoption= with some questions and comments.

     

    draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00<= /o:p>

    1. Is draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 an Informational draft?

    <RG> This was based on re= view comment. We are Ok to change it to PS if WG is ok.

     

    1. Do not require any IANA allocation? Related to 1.

    <RG> No.

     

    1. The name is about TWAMP Light, but in draft short name , it is= twamp.

    <RG> TWAMP Light method.<= o:p>

     

    1. Can we use this method for other network except SR? I think ye= s.

    <RG> Yes.

     

    draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00<= /o:p>

    1. Can we use this method for other network except SR? I think ye= s.

    <RG> Yes.

     

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

     

     

     

    Thanks,

    Cheng

     

     

     

     

    From: = Tommy Pauly [mailto:= tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org]
    Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2020 3:35 AM
    To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org= ) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-cha= irs@ietf.org>; spring-chairs@ietf.org
    Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and = draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm    <= /p>

     

    Hello IPPM,

     

    For the past few meetings, we&#= 8217;ve had updates on the work in the SPRING WG that was using STAMP and T= WAMP. Since those documents ended up making extensions to the base protocol= s, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work = in the IPPM WG.

     

    As such, we are starting a Work= ing Group call for adoption for draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft= -gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm.

     

    Please provide your feedback on= these documents, and state whether or not you believe the IPPM WG should a= dopt this work by replying to this email. Please provide your feedback by t= he start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Monday, November 16.

     

    Best,

    Tommy & Ian

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Wed, 18 Nov 2020 04:28:19 +0000 From: "Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi)" To: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" , Tommy Pauly , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" CC: IPPM Chairs , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Thread-Index: AQHWrutqxCpe6zKAOkqELdQ0D7z91KnMHc4AgAEtWaeAAALsAIAAGkwI Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 04:28:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: , , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-CA, en-US Content-Language: en-CA X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: huawei.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;huawei.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [174.112.172.213] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 376038c6-99b6-4c64-d239-08d88b7a60bd x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM5PR11MB1833: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: Wl9l4JXIByOGbe+kRw9rn+XFWGQ0lkHKG2TIhNOxdJN4dhuKwMUbyN+1ZlNxk6csA1EyTHBAyR1MYXf0msQvvIByq80rV9pd2LVJ2aEFQcnQYzqdayMCnjoWJWqkoZyiNjXEvf0htVgPlyHAco5mOyBq7WNrtZLRL9KTsjkoGkin7L+Y+rwC7mKlMrilPUT1dWEnHU6ZI0Dh+yv6D5h/hoE5ZInBMs36vIoXVDT7iXGLpwOQ66rz9dnBkImoOmrBOk78RGgaaxnJyvXJ8on048ortbrI25cVjAXjOuQ68wFO4LaU+K6++/H+iqvo16kANbMAiNQh72dwoqLtBsB+5ngMvw5Wsp2P0u9TReARWWAijXeRATJ9lS+M0Fm/dfNNT7TCjQNkj+ReHdFePDmpoA== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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boundary="_000_DM6PR11MB3115B7F6129FA75C27285FABBFE10DM6PR11MB3115namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR11MB3115.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 376038c6-99b6-4c64-d239-08d88b7a60bd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Nov 2020 04:28:19.7445 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: WQeoGS7gQSjwl6iYoI/XepzxmXFJb6gQqFn6s5viBcMNTgqmw7F5P5xhBG3yYIlLborumJfJg1OwP7CFGn+4bQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR11MB1833 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.13, xch-aln-003.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-12.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 04:28:27 -0000 --_000_DM6PR11MB3115B7F6129FA75C27285FABBFE10DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Cheng. Correct, we will clarify in the next update. Thanks, Rakesh From: Chengli (Cheng Li) Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 9:53 PM To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) , Tommy Pauly , IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Cc: IPPM Chairs , spring-chairs@ietf.org Subject: RE: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Thanks, this addresses my concerns. One more comments, more text should be added to describe the counters. I th= ink the counter is associated with the measured flow instead of the Testing= flow. Correct? Transmit Counter (64-bit): The number of packets or octets sent by the sender node in the query message and by the reflector node in the response message. The counter is always written at the well-known location in the probe query and response messages. Regarding the extensions, I think they are valuable. Thanks, Cheng From: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) [mailto:rgandhi@cisco.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 10:46 AM To: Chengli (Cheng Li) ; Tommy Pauly ; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Cc: IPPM Chairs ; spring-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Thank you Cheng for your review comments. Please see inline replies with =85 From: ippm > Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 3:44 AM To: Tommy Pauly >, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) = > Cc: IPPM Chairs >, spring= -chairs@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi IPPM, I support the adoption with some questions and comments. draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 1. Is draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 an Informational draft? This was based on review comment. We are Ok to change it to PS if WG i= s ok. 1. Do not require any IANA allocation? Related to 1. No. 1. The name is about TWAMP Light, but in draft short name , it is twamp. TWAMP Light method. 1. Can we use this method for other network except SR? I think yes. Yes. draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 1. Can we use this method for other network except SR? I think yes. Yes. Thanks, Rakesh Thanks, Cheng From: Tommy Pauly [mailto:tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org] Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2020 3:35 AM To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Cc: IPPM Chairs >; spring= -chairs@ietf.org Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-g= andhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hello IPPM, For the past few meetings, we=92ve had updates on the work in the SPRING WG= that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making exte= nsions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it= would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in = the IPPM WG. As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption for draft-gandhi= -ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. The documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 The related SPRING documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether or not y= ou believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Pl= ease provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mo= nday, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian --_000_DM6PR11MB3115B7F6129FA75C27285FABBFE10DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Thanks Cheng.

    Correct, we will clarify in the next update.

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

     

     

    From: Chengli (Cheng Li) <c.l@huawei.co= m>
    Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 9:53 PM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com>, Tommy Pauly &= lt;tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) &l= t;ippm@ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org= <spring-chairs@ietf.org>
    Subject: RE: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Thanks, this addresses my concerns.

     

    One more comments, more text should b= e added to describe the counters. I think the counter is associated with th= e measured flow instead of the Testing flow. Correct?

     

     

    Transmit Counter (64-bit): The number of packe= ts or octets sent by

       the sender node in the query mess= age and by the reflector node in the

       response message.  The count= er is always written at the well-known

       location in the probe query and r= esponse messages.

     

    Regarding the extensions, I think the= y are valuable.

     

    Thanks,

    Cheng

     

    From: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) [mailt= o:rgandhi@cisco.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 10:46 AM
    To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <c.l@huawei.com>; Tommy Pauly <tpaul= y=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@i= etf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>; spring-chairs@ietf.org=
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

     

    Thank you Cheng for your review comments.

    Please see inline replies with <RG>=85=

     

    From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org>
    Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 3:44 AM
    To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-cha= irs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi IPPM,

     

    I support the adoption with some ques= tions and comments.

     

    draft= -gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00

    1. Is= draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 an Informational draft?<= /li>

    <RG> This was based on review comment. We are = Ok to change it to PS if WG is ok.

     

    1. Do= not require any IANA allocation? Related to 1.

    <RG> No.

     

    1. Th= e name is about TWAMP Light, but in draft short name , it is twamp.<= o:p>

    <RG> TWAMP Light method.

     

    1. Ca= n we use this method for other network except SR? I think yes.

    <RG> Yes.

     = ;

    draft= -gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00

    1. Ca= n we use this method for other network except SR? I think yes.

    <RG> Yes.

     

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

     

     

     = ;

    Thanks,

    Cheng

     

     

     

     

    From: Tommy Pauly [mailto:tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.iet= f.org]
    Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2020 3:35 AM
    To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org= ) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-cha= irs@ietf.org>; spring-chairs@ietf.org
    Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and = draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

     

    Hello IPPM,

     

    For the past few meetings, we=92ve had updates on th= e work in the SPRING WG that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documen= ts ended up making extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING a= nd IPPM decided that it would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in the IPPM WG.

     

    As such, we are starting a Working Group call for ad= option for draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-sr= pm.

     

    Please provide your feedback on these documents, and= state whether or not you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by rep= lying to this email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF = 109 meeting week, on Monday, November 16.

     

    Best,

    Tommy & Ian

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2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 05:03:57 -0000 --_000_1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F4050C578Adggeml524mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgRnJhbmssDQoNCkkgYWdyZWUgd2l0aCB5b3UgdGhhdCBOQy9ZQU5HIGlzIGFuIGFsdGVybmF0 ZSB3YXkgdG8gcmV0cmlldmUgdGhlIElPQU0gZGVjYXBzdWxhdGlvbiBjYXBhYmlsaXR5Lg0KQW5k IGZyb20gdGhlIHNpZGUgb2YgSUdQL0JHUCwgd2UgYWxzbyBwcm9wb3NlZCBleHRlbnNpb25zIHRv IElHUC9CR1AgZm9yIElPQU0vQWx0ZXJuYXRlIE1hcmtpbmcgdHJhbnNpdCBub2RlL2RlY2Fwc3Vs YXRpb24gbm9kZSBjYXBhYmlsaXR5IGluIGh0dHBzOi8vdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC9kcmFm dC13YW5nLWxzci1pZ3AtZXh0ZW5zaW9ucy1pZml0LTAxIGFuZCBodHRwczovL3Rvb2xzLmlldGYu b3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtd2FuZy1pZHItYmdwLWlmaXQtY2FwYWJpbGl0aWVzLTAxIC4NCg0KUGxl YXNlIHNlZSB0aGUgZGV0YWlscyBvZiBwcm9wb3NlZCBleHRlbnNpb25zIGZvciBJT0FNIHRyYW5z 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score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ErOIB1kKTMvk; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 00:36:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x12e.google.com (mail-lf1-x12e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCC143A167E; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 00:36:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id u18so1736010lfd.9; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 00:36:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=7PuCKVgd4nu04duubG5n4bjExsjdrn5G8q2wlJpOUbs=; b=pIR6yewnmzzqfmRABF38PsvXVZMNNJWiHxzqDprs1lYk4lsgBIvFVrWUpEVtSWeHVZ A1mOgTu8UgM2amhQ26Pi0Lm2dlrY7OIVOae8R1uM8ibFmNrwIVcmZiZDw02ybl6HpYBb mypoOnar793X5czr9SiGB6KwTGTDQzlCXI+wVobgoLxKuyoTiEoKe87//ATGo0pSAVjl C3sDy+0tFEfy9PD6Ce3Cue3irIGoehANhRmMFsxQau1s+fJ5hpcAOwl8CeQj03Asxxlg I5DgNwXTCj2VL17RRShkBDBpZScg6fc84mVSb+JKGzg0Je8A2zTmtHzl4xOmZwaDYJlY spRA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7PuCKVgd4nu04duubG5n4bjExsjdrn5G8q2wlJpOUbs=; b=MuaxRXdnEZLrTBBdp8j5r6x5jsGpifWZMPpS7X93D34IvPKB5fiPwwGtQNq+uL6l1S PrdUYBiOJAeSlsoLRStOrXC5GXu1rMbj5WcH1bJ6zS6O+bfD0hnFZNPfhQoU41QPZSBF HYL+WWVwspg9I7sOOZYhZt+cv71CHC6HbnK1SaG5+DKehOn4tBIKNkdriyv1Jh35RGBQ GoyDSZKPT6MaS+T68Awr9xJeuAqSd+fZ4Gdmv86Z5Ycy8HH7eNn/LTvd6FJp3FdMyI2P eV5GGaHgRykvyEacecpwps5pJPUE/c0Un7t28mndlY7/jdNKzsSmFqqVxJ2VgPvGsSBp ydGw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531lanT+vLgKt0DwpCtQUVvF5+MfPBEQH0786qUx3QU71h+MZDoW hVhFAt2w5CX0rT8UPTJyD4imeylB5kb65u2eWl0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy4lb1ERTdY1dR12zLEdckK+KgbOlxKlDVptCWt37ql5cejWIrtIsX/H1n091hcDeLCMxUqLBlUjqpHMcqkhEw= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:46cc:: with SMTP id p12mr3074721lfo.56.1605688570876; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 00:36:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202011181557167521943@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: <202011181557167521943@zte.com.cn> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 00:35:59 -0800 Message-ID: To: Xiao Min Cc: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" , Tommy Pauly , IPPM Chairs , "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e3190d05b45d80fe" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 08:36:15 -0000 --000000000000e3190d05b45d80fe Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All, I agree with Xiao Min's suggestion that IGP may be not the most effective mechanism to collect information about a node's IAOM capability. Consider the case when IOAM capability is controlled by a local policy that controls the type of information available to different sources within an IOAM domain. I think that it would be much more challenging to reflect that through IGP than to discover that using ICMP. Regards, Greg On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 11:57 PM wrote: > Hi Cheng, > > > I don't really understand your concern. > > ICMPv6 is a mature protocol mechanism, and IOAM function is limited in a > trusted domain, then using ICMPv6 to discover IOAM capabilities wouldn't > introduce any big challenge on security and privacy. > > I don't think IGP is better than ICMPv6 in this case. Firstly, flooding > IOAM capabilities throughout the IGP domain is too heavy and unnecessary = in > my view. Secondly, IGP domain and IOAM domain don't always have the same > coverage, one example is that when the IOAM encapsulating node is a host > IGP flooding doesn't work for it. > > > Best Regards, > > Xiao Min > =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6 > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Chengli(ChengLi) > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Chengli (Cheng Li);=E8=82=96=E6=95= =8F10093570; > *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*ippm-chairs@ietf.org;ippm@ietf.org;= fbrockne=3D > 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org;tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org; > *=E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B411=E6=9C=8817=E6=97=A5 17:53 > *=E4=B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9A**RE: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-= ippm-ioam-conf-state* > > I meantI don=E2=80=99t think we can detect the (Non Routing ) capabilitie= s of a > node in another domain. Sorry for the typo. > > > > *From:* ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org]*On Behalf Of *Chengli (Cheng > Li) > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 17, 2020 4:09 PM > *To:* xiao.min2@zte.com.cn > *Cc:* ippm-chairs@ietf.org; ippm@ietf.org; fbrockne=3D > 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org; tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state > > > > Hi Min, > > > > That is also my understanding. IOAM is limited in a trusted domain. > > > > But ICMP can be used in the global Internet? I don=E2=80=99t think we can= detect > the capabilities of a node in another node. Privacy and security will be = a > big challenge. > > > > So personally I prefer IGP/BGP/BGP-LS or NETCONF/YANG way. > > > > Thanks, > > Cheng > > > > > > > > *From:*xiao.min2@zte.com.cn [mailto:xiao.min2@zte.com.cn > ] > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 17, 2020 3:52 PM > *To:* Chengli (Cheng Li) > *Cc:* fbrockne=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org; > tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org;ippm@ietf.org; ippm-chairs@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re:[ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state > > > > Hello Cheng, > > > > I noticed that Frank has submitted an In-situ OAM deployment draft within > OPSAWG, in section 3 of that draft it says: > > " > > IOAM is a network domain specific feature, with "network domain" > > being a set of network devices or entities within a single > > administration. IOAM is not targeted for a deployment on the global > > Internet. The part of the network which employs IOAM is referred to > > as the "IOAM-Domain". > > " > > To my understanding, the IOAM data is collected only within a trusted > domain, of course, Frank can correct me if I'm wrong. > > For your convenience, the link for this quoted draft is provided as below= . > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment > > > > Best Regards, > > Xiao Min > > =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6 > > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Chengli(ChengLi) > > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*Frank Brockners (fbrockne);Tommy Pa= uly;IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org); > > *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9A*IPPM Chairs; > > *=E6=97=A5**=E6=9C=9F**=EF=BC=9A*2020=E5=B9=B411=E6=9C=8816=E6=97=A5 17:2= 8 > > *=E4=B8=BB**=E9=A2=98**=EF=BC=9ARe: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-= ippm-ioam-conf-state* > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > I have one simple question like I mentioned in the meeting: Is it secure > to discover the non-routing capabilities info from the data plane? > > > > For instance, a packet may travel several network domains, and the truste= d > scope is only within each domain. When we use ICMP Ping, we can get the > non-routing info from other domains. Is it OK to do it? I think we shoul= d > consider more about security and privacy. > > > > Furthermore, can we collect the IOAM data in multiple domain scenarios? O= r > only within a trusted domain? > > > > Thanks, > > Cheng > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org ]*On > Behalf Of*Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > *Sent:* Monday, November 16, 2020 3:13 PM > *To:* Tommy Pauly ; IETF IPPM WG ( > ippm@ietf.org) > *Cc:* IPPM Chairs > *Subject:* Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state > > > > Hello IPPM, > > > > per what I mentioned during the IPPM WG meeting today, I don=E2=80=99t th= ink we > should adopt the document before we have a couple of key questions resolv= ed: > > > > * Why can=E2=80=99t we use Netconf/YANG (with the existing capabilities d= iscovery > process =E2=80=93 a la RFC 6241) to retrieve the IOAM capabilities of IOA= M nodes? > E.g. the encapsulating node (as a NC client) could retrieve the IOAM > capabilities from other IOAM nodes (acting as a NC server). Plus there i= s > already a YANG model in flight for IOAM (draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-08). A= t > a minimum I would have expected that the draft discusses why NC/YANG is n= ot > suitable for the scenario that the authors have in mind. The slides ( > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/materials/slides-109-ippm-echo-r= equestreply-for-enabled-ioam-capabilities-00) > that were presented in the IPPM WG meeting today, mention =E2=80=9CChange= d from > =E2=80=9CIOAM Configuration Data=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9CEnabled IOAM Capabi= lities=E2=80=9D since the former > is too associated with NETCONF/YANG.=E2=80=9D IMHO we need a bit more tha= n just > wordsmithing. > > > > * While the draft uses IOAM capabilities discovery as the use-case, in > more general terms, it proposes to add management/ops capabilities to > echo-request/reply protocols like ICMP, which is a much broader topic. Th= e > TLV structures which are proposed to be added to echo-requests and > echo-replies could obviously be leveraged for other use-cases. Does the > work really fit the scope of the IPPM WG? > > > > Thanks, Frank > > > > *From:* ippm *On Behalf Of*Tommy Pauly > *Sent:* Freitag, 30. Oktober 2020 19:46 > *To:* IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > *Cc:* IPPM Chairs > *Subject:* [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state > > > > Hello IPPM, > > > This email starts a Working Group call for adoption > for draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state. This document has been presented > several times and discussed within the working group in the context of ou= r > overall IOAM work. > > The document can be found here: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state-07 > > > Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not > you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. > Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, o= n *Monday, > November 16*. > > Best, > Tommy & Ian > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > --000000000000e3190d05b45d80fe Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Dear All,
    I agree with Xiao Min's suggestion that = IGP may be not the most effective mechanism to collect information about a = node's IAOM capability. Consider the case when IOAM capability is contr= olled by a local policy that controls the type of information available to = different sources within=C2=A0an IOAM domain. I think that it would be much= more challenging to reflect that through IGP than to discover that using I= CMP.

    Regards,
    Greg

    On Tue, Nov 17, = 2020 at 11:57 PM <xiao.min2@zte.= com.cn> wrote:

    Hi Cheng,


    I don't really understand your concern.

    ICMPv6 is a mature protocol mechanism= , and IOAM function is limited in a trusted domain, then using ICMPv6 to di= scover IOAM capabilities wouldn't introduce any big challenge on securi= ty and privacy.

    I don'= t think IGP is better than ICMPv6 in this case. Firstly, flooding IOAM capa= bilities throughout the IGP domain is too heavy and unnecessary in my view.= Secondly, IGP domain and IOAM domain don't always have the same covera= ge, one example is that when the IOAM encapsulating node is a host IGP floo= ding doesn't work for it.


    Best Regards,

    =

    Xiao Min

    <= /div>
    =E5=8E=9F=E5=A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6
    =E5=8F=91= =E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9AChengli(ChengLi)
    =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9AChengli (Cheng Li);=E8=82=96=E6=95=8F10093570;
    = =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9Aippm-chairs@ietf= .org;ippm@ietf.org;fbrockne=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org;tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org= ;
    =E6=97=A5 =E6=9C=9F =EF=BC=9A2020=E5=B9=B411=E6=9C=8817=E6=97=A5 17:53
    =E4= =B8=BB =E9=A2=98 =EF=BC=9ARE: [ippm] Call for adopti= on: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state
    <= div>

    I meantI don=E2= =80=99t think we can detect the (Non Routing ) capabilities of a node in an= other domain. Sorry for the typo.

    =C2=A0

    From: ippm [= mailto:ippm-boun= ces@ietf.org]On Behalf Of Chengli (Cheng Li)
    Sent:     Tuesday, November 17, 2020 4:09 PM
    To:= xiao.min2@zte.co= m.cn
    Cc: ippm-chairs@ietf.org; ippm@ietf.org; fbrockne=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org; tpauly= =3D40apple.= com@dmarc.ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for ado= ption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state

    =

    =C2=A0

    Hi Min,

    = =C2=A0

    That is also my unde= rstanding. IOAM is limited in a trusted domain.

    =C2=A0

    But ICMP can be used in the global Internet? I don=E2=80=99t= think we can detect the capabilities of a node in another node. Privacy an= d security will be a big challenge.

    =C2=A0

    So personally I prefer IGP/BGP/BGP-LS or NETCONF/YANG way.=

    =C2=A0

    Thanks,

    Cheng

    =C2=A0

    =C2= =A0

    =C2=A0

    From:xiao.min2@zte.com.cn [mailto:xiao.min2@zte.com.cn]
    Sent:= Tuesday, November 17, 2020 3:52 PM
    To: Chengl= i (Cheng Li) <c.l@hu= awei.com>
    Cc: fbrockne=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.= org;tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org;ippm@ietf.org; ippm-chairs@ietf.org
    Subject: Re:[ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state

    =C2=A0

    Hello Cheng,<= u>

    =C2=A0

    I noticed that Frank has submitted an In-situ O= AM deployment draft within OPSAWG, in section 3 of that draft it says:

    "

    IOAM is a network domain specific feature, with "network do=
main"
    =C2=A0=C2=A0 being a set of network devi=
ces or entities within a single
    =C2=A0=C2=A0 admini=
stration.=C2=A0 IOAM is not targeted for a deployment on the global<=
u>
    =C2=A0=C2=A0 Internet.=C2=A0 The part of the network which=
 employs IOAM is referred to
    =C2=A0=C2=A0 as the &q=
uot;IOAM-Domain".

    "

    To my understanding, t= he IOAM data is collected only within a trusted domain, of course, Frank ca= n correct me if I'm wrong.

    For your convenience, the link= for this quoted draft is provided as below.

    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment

    =C2=A0

    Best Regards,

    =

    Xiao Min

    =E5=8E=9F=E5= =A7=8B=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6

    =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9AChengli(Chen= gLi)

    <= strong>=E6=8A= =84=E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9AIPPM Chairs;<= /u>

    =E6=97=A5=E6=9C=9F=EF=BC=9A2020=E5=B9=B411=E6=9C=8816=E6=97=A5 1= 7:28

    =E4=B8=BB= =E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9ARe: [ippm] Call for ado= ption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state

    ___________= ____________________________________
    ippm=C2=A0mailing=C2=A0list
    ippm@ietf.org
    https://w= ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

    I have one simple question lik= e I mentioned in the meeting: Is it secure to discover the non-routing capa= bilities info from the data plane?

    =C2=A0

    =

    For instance, a= packet may travel several network domains, and the trusted scope is only w= ithin each domain. When we use ICMP Ping, we can get the non-routing info from other domains. Is it OK to do it?=C2=A0 I think we should consid= er more about security and privacy.

    =C2=A0

    Furthermore, c= an we collect the IOAM data in multiple domain scenarios? Or only within a = trusted domain?

    =C2=A0

    Thanks,

    <= p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cheng<= /u>

    = =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0=

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    From: ippm [mailt= o:ippm-bounces@ietf.org]On Behalf OfFrank Brockners (f= brockne)
    Sent: Monday, November 16, 2020 3:13 PM
    To:     Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>= ; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@iet= f.org) <ippm@ietf= .org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-= state

    =C2=A0<= /u>

    Hello IPPM,

    =C2=A0

    per what I mentioned = during the IPPM WG meeting today, I don=E2=80=99t think we should adopt the= document before we have a couple of key questions resolved:<= /p>

    =C2=A0

    * = Why can=E2=80=99t we use Netconf/YANG (with the existing capabilities disco= very process =E2=80=93 a la RFC 6241) to retrieve the IOAM capabilities of = IOAM nodes? E.g. the encapsulating node (as a NC client) could retrieve the IOAM capabilities from other IOAM nodes = =C2=A0(acting as a NC server). Plus there is already a YANG model in flight= for IOAM (draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-08). At a minimum I would have expecte= d that the draft discusses why NC/YANG is not suitable for the scenario that the authors have in mind. The slides= (= https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/materials/slides-109-ippm-echo-req= uestreply-for-enabled-ioam-capabilities-00) that were presented in the IPPM WG meeting today, mention =E2=80=9CChanged= from =E2=80=9CIOAM Configuration Data=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9CEnabled IOAM Ca= pabilities=E2=80=9D since the former is too associated with NETCONF/YANG.= =E2=80=9D IMHO we need a bit more than just wordsmithing.

    =

    =C2=A0

    * Whi= le the draft uses IOAM capabilities discovery as the use-case, in more gene= ral terms, it proposes to add management/ops capabilities to echo-request/r= eply protocols like ICMP, which is a much broader topic. The TLV structures which are proposed to be= added to echo-requests and echo-replies could obviously be leveraged for o= ther use-cases. Does the work really fit the scope of the IPPM WG?

    =C2=A0

    Thanks, Frank

    =C2=A0<= /u>

    From: ippm <i= ppm-bounces@ietf.org>On Behalf OfTommy Pauly
    Sent:     Freitag, 30. Oktober 2020 19:46
    To:= IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf= .org) <ippm@ietf.= org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>
    = Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state=

    =C2=A0

    Hello IPPM,


    This email starts a Working Group call for adoption f= or=C2=A0draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state. This document has been presented s= everal times and discussed within the working group in the context of our o= verall IOAM work.

    The document can be found here:

    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state-07

    = Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting=C2=A0week, o= n=C2=A0Monday, November 16.

    Best,
    Tommy & Ia= n

    =C2=A0


    _______________________________________________
    ippm mailing list
    ippm@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
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key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EbxfEorKOGLA; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 00:50:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x129.google.com (mail-lf1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C5B93A16A9; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 00:50:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x129.google.com with SMTP id j205so1808243lfj.6; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 00:50:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=d2v2idTj/LrKB6ugz/XLOrSeS0B/A6oocEAxK82NGZY=; b=b5JNhGpdXW2mkUp4M2WwAXCq6jqCB+XtH/tX2/0AyctL8LDQlnATFjgqzqeLyNmKqQ c66DZjdnxJL1T7nDdMPdyXQoaBPM9yr8FRfbL+ylLn6bUf/RnYxZGXN9fhWlAG1iPVUP 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ABdhPJyDuWAktgfWIV0KmSPGqa0BJLTJ1ri5s2RpiehEGYFy34RKkwSk8RSAETGg7dKV5Yqds7KsrVp9pMfKWpEuYkw= X-Received: by 2002:a19:91:: with SMTP id 139mr3219132lfa.331.1605689436780; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 00:50:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5E408E0E-862E-480B-88FD-890098340EBC@apple.com> In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 00:50:25 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" Cc: Tommy Pauly , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" , IPPM Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007fbade05b45db42d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 08:50:41 -0000 --0000000000007fbade05b45db42d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Frank, many thank for your comments at the mike and the continued discussion on the list. I would point to RFC 4884 that defined Multi-part message as the mechanism to extend ICMP functionality. To this day several RFCs that use that mechanism equipped ICMP with capabilities to respond with various objects, e.g., MPLS Label stack, a piece of interface information that includes its IP address, name, and MTU. So, I think that the proposed mechanism to extend ICMP for IAOM capability discovery is in line with RFC 4884. Regards, Greg On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 11:12 PM Frank Brockners (fbrockne) wrote: > Hello IPPM, > > > > per what I mentioned during the IPPM WG meeting today, I don=E2=80=99t th= ink we > should adopt the document before we have a couple of key questions resolv= ed: > > > > * Why can=E2=80=99t we use Netconf/YANG (with the existing capabilities d= iscovery > process =E2=80=93 a la RFC 6241) to retrieve the IOAM capabilities of IOA= M nodes? > E.g. the encapsulating node (as a NC client) could retrieve the IOAM > capabilities from other IOAM nodes (acting as a NC server). Plus there i= s > already a YANG model in flight for IOAM (draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-08). A= t > a minimum I would have expected that the draft discusses why NC/YANG is n= ot > suitable for the scenario that the authors have in mind. The slides ( > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/materials/slides-109-ippm-echo-r= equestreply-for-enabled-ioam-capabilities-00) > that were presented in the IPPM WG meeting today, mention =E2=80=9CChange= d from > =E2=80=9CIOAM Configuration Data=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9CEnabled IOAM Capabi= lities=E2=80=9D since the former > is too associated with NETCONF/YANG.=E2=80=9D IMHO we need a bit more tha= n just > wordsmithing. > > > > * While the draft uses IOAM capabilities discovery as the use-case, in > more general terms, it proposes to add management/ops capabilities to > echo-request/reply protocols like ICMP, which is a much broader topic. Th= e > TLV structures which are proposed to be added to echo-requests and > echo-replies could obviously be leveraged for other use-cases. Does the > work really fit the scope of the IPPM WG? > > > > Thanks, Frank > > > > *From:* ippm *On Behalf Of * Tommy Pauly > *Sent:* Freitag, 30. Oktober 2020 19:46 > *To:* IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > *Cc:* IPPM Chairs > *Subject:* [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state > > > > Hello IPPM, > > > This email starts a Working Group call for adoption > for draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state. This document has been presented > several times and discussed within the working group in the context of ou= r > overall IOAM work. > > The document can be found here: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state-07 > > > Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not > you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. > Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, o= n *Monday, > November 16*. > > Best, > Tommy & Ian > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > --0000000000007fbade05b45db42d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Frank,
    many thank for your comments at the mike and= the continued discussion on the list.
    I would point to RFC 4884 = that defined Multi-part message as the mechanism to extend ICMP functionali= ty. To this day several RFCs that use that mechanism equipped=C2=A0ICMP wit= h capabilities=C2=A0to respond with various objects, e.g., MPLS Label stack= , a piece of interface information that includes its IP address, name, and = MTU. So, I think that the proposed mechanism to extend ICMP for IAOM capabi= lity discovery is in line with RFC 4884.

    Regards,<= /div>
    Greg

    On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 11:12 PM Frank Brockners (fbroc= kne) <fbrockne=3D40cisco.c= om@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

    Hello IPPM,

    =C2=A0

    per what I mentioned during the IPPM WG meeting toda= y, I don=E2=80=99t think we should adopt the document before we have a coup= le of key questions resolved:

    =C2=A0

    * Why can=E2=80=99t we use Netconf/YANG (with the ex= isting capabilities discovery process =E2=80=93 a la RFC 6241) to retrieve = the IOAM capabilities of IOAM nodes? E.g. the encapsulating node (as a NC c= lient) could retrieve the IOAM capabilities from other IOAM nodes =C2=A0(acting as a NC server). Plus there is already a YANG mod= el in flight for IOAM (draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang-08). At a minimum I would = have expected that the draft discusses why NC/YANG is not suitable for the = scenario that the authors have in mind. The slides (https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/109/materials/slides-109-i= ppm-echo-requestreply-for-enabled-ioam-capabilities-00) that were presented in the IPPM WG meeting today, mention =E2=80=9CChanged= from =E2=80=9CIOAM Configuration Data=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9CEnabled IOAM Ca= pabilities=E2=80=9D since the former is too associated with NETCONF/YANG.= =E2=80=9D IMHO we need a bit more than just wordsmithing.

    =C2=A0

    * While the draft uses IOAM capabilities discovery a= s the use-case, in more general terms, it proposes to add management/ops ca= pabilities to echo-request/reply protocols like ICMP, which is a much broad= er topic. The TLV structures which are proposed to be added to echo-requests and echo-replies could obviously= be leveraged for other use-cases. Does the work really fit the scope of th= e IPPM WG?

    =C2=A0

    Thanks, Frank

    =C2=A0

    From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of = Tommy Pauly
    Sent: Freitag, 30. Oktober 2020 19:46
    To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <= ippm@ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>
    Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state

    =C2=A0

    Hello IPPM,


    This email starts a Working Group call for adoption for=C2=A0draft-xiao-ipp= m-ioam-conf-state. This document has been presented several times and discu= ssed within the working group in the context of our overall IOAM work.

    The document can be found here:

    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state-07<= /a>

    Please provide your feedback on these document, and state whether or not yo= u believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Ple= ase provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting=C2=A0week, o= n=C2=A0Monday, November 16.

    Best,
    Tommy & Ian

    _______________________________________________
    ippm mailing list
    ippm@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
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PC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjxwPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9v OnA+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB02CBFDF2dggeml529mbxchi_-- From nobody Wed Nov 18 01:35:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D803C3A1728; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 01:35:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wV_H_s5PVMSt; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 01:35:37 -0800 (PST) Received: 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DGGEML524-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.26]) by DGGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::fca6:7568:4ee3:c776%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 17:35:26 +0800 From: wangyali To: Tommy Pauly , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" CC: IPPM Chairs , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Thread-Index: AQGKoOKFYMy1u9FpGBTWyX9fi5E/sqplu8sw Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 09:35:26 +0000 Message-ID: <1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F4050C5888@dggeml524-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.136] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1520992FC97B944A9979C2FC1D7DB0F4050C5888dggeml524mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org 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boundary="_000_DM6PR11MB3115600B0F22BF74EAD8C63CBFE00DM6PR11MB3115namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR11MB3115.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 64fdd35b-bc58-49f4-4a73-08d88c470294 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Nov 2020 04:53:08.5462 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Zu/Q4odMheNtoa3o1HEj2C+TghMkqArHgdRlk8sMRSZcYa8MxzYs0vxEkOksCTVg2moVQfD2q9CLhyvLvtC6BQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR11MB1403 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.12, xch-aln-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-11.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 04:53:17 -0000 --_000_DM6PR11MB3115600B0F22BF74EAD8C63CBFE00DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Yali for the review comments. We will address them in the next revi= sion of the document. Yes, the bidirectional co-routed path is one use-case considered for Return= Path TLV. Thanks, Rakesh From: ippm Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 4:36 AM To: Tommy Pauly , IETF IPPM WG (ippm@i= etf.org) Cc: IPPM Chairs , spring-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi chairs and WG, I read https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 and http= s://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 and support the adoption with following comments and question. 1. For STAMP extension https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-sta= mp-srpm-00, Old text: =93However, in order to use only for loss measuremen= t purpose, it requires the node to support the delay measurement messages and support timestamp for these messages (which may also require clock synchronization).=94 NEW text: However, in order to use only for delay measurement purpose= , it requires the node to support the delay measurement messages and support timestamp for these m= essages (which may also require clock synchronization). 1. For both of two drafts, could you move the definitions of =93Receive = Counter=94 and =93Sender counter=94 carried in LM Probe Response Message in= to sec.4.1? It may be more easily readable. 1. For STAMP extension https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-sta= mp-srpm-00, in order to two-way performance measurement, the Return Path TL= V is extended to carry the Reverse Path or the Binding SID. So does the ext= ension also consider the bidirectional co-route? Best regards, Yali From: Tommy Pauly [mailto:tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org] Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2020 3:35 AM To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Cc: IPPM Chairs ; spring-chairs@ietf.org Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-g= andhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hello IPPM, For the past few meetings, we=92ve had updates on the work in the SPRING WG= that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making exte= nsions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it= would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in = the IPPM WG. As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption for draft-gandhi= -ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. The documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 The related SPRING documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether or not y= ou believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Pl= ease provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mo= nday, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian --_000_DM6PR11MB3115600B0F22BF74EAD8C63CBFE00DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Thanks Yali for the review comments.  We will = address them in the next revision of the document.

    Yes, the bidirectional co-routed path is one use-ca= se considered for Return Path TLV.

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

     

     

    From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 4:36 AM
    To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IETF IP= PM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org= <spring-chairs@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi chairs and WG,

     

    I read https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 and htt= ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00

    and support the adoption with followi= ng comments and question.

     

    1. For STAMP extension https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00,  Old text: =93However, in order to use only for loss measurement p= urpose, it

       requires the node to support the = delay measurement messages and

       support timestamp for these messa= ges (which may also require clock

       synchronization).=94<= /o:p>

          NEW text: However, in order to use only for delay measurement purpose,= it  requires the node

    to support the delay measurement mess= ages and support timestamp for these messages (which may also require clock=   synchronization).

     

    1. For both of two drafts, could you move the definitions= of =93Receive Counter=94 and =93Sender counter=94 carried in LM Probe Response Message in to sec.4.1? It may be more easily readable= .

     

    1. For STAMP extension https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00, in order to two-way performance measurement, the Retu= rn Path TLV is extended to carry the Reverse Path or the Binding SID. So do= es the extension also consider the bidirectional co-route?

     

    Best regards,

    Yali

     

    From: Tommy Pauly [mailto:tpauly=3D4= 0apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org]
    Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2020 3:35 AM
    To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>; spring-chairs@ietf.org=
    Subject: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and = draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

     

    Hello IPPM,

     

    For the past few meetings, we=92ve had updates on th= e work in the SPRING WG that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documen= ts ended up making extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING a= nd IPPM decided that it would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in the IPPM WG.

     

    As such, we are starting a Working Group call for ad= option for draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-sr= pm.

     

    Please provide your feedback on these documents, and= state whether or not you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by rep= lying to this email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF = 109 meeting week, on Monday, November 16.

     

    Best,

    Tommy & Ian

    --_000_DM6PR11MB3115600B0F22BF74EAD8C63CBFE00DM6PR11MB3115namp_-- From nobody Wed Nov 18 21:00:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E319D3A0CD7; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 21:00:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LKCyih8I42HB; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 21:00:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client 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Rahman (rrahman)" , Tommy Pauly , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" CC: IPPM Chairs Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang Thread-Index: AQHWruxHXkttMybmSkWN4dSd7Dk7lanJJA8AgAD3naCAAeAjgIADCAbA Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 05:00:36 +0000 Message-ID: References: <43DADFB5-FE8A-49A1-BF39-1ECC10594211@apple.com> <920663CC-C793-4FCD-9493-86EF28A669AB@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.128] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_cab01ba8df6942dcb1d7fb439fdb3d3ahuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 05:00:45 -0000 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(ippm@ietf.org)" Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Thread-Index: AQHWrutyzmWv/eapkkq7mEvT+f83ham/jAuAgAGIKYCABKWmAIAEH64AgAAA6ACAAqNCgIAAFHgAgAJz+6A= Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 05:33:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.128] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_d333def04f55416783d5078a75780685huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 05:33:27 -0000 --_000_d333def04f55416783d5078a75780685huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Rakesh and Greg, I may not very clear about the context. Please allow me to jump in. It seems both of you make some valid point. Please see in line with . Cheers, Tianran From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rakesh Gandhi (r= gandhi) Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 7:41 AM To: Greg Mirsky Cc: spring ; IPPM Chairs ; spring-ch= airs@ietf.org; Tommy Pauly ; IETF IPPM= WG (ippm@ietf.org) Subject: Re: [spring] [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srp= m and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Greg, Thank you for your review and discussions on the drafts. This will help imp= rove the work on this important work. Please see replies inline with .. From: Greg Mirsky > Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 5:27 PM To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > Cc: Tommy Pauly >, IPPM Chairs >, spring-chairs@ietf.org >, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.o= rg) >, spring > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Rakesh, WG Chairs, and All, I've read the responses to my detailed comments. I don't think that only ad= ding references will solve the problems with the documents. If authors are = interested in addressing my comments, we can start working on solving them = one by one. As mentioned in previous replies, we can add references for the well-k= nown terms "Links", "Congruent Paths", "SR Path". If you prefer, we can def= ine them here. For Zero checksum field, we can add a reference for the RFC = 6936 in Security section and also add some text for it. Will be happy to wo= rk with you to address these. But I am very much concerned with the technical value of these drafts. And = here's why I feel that the proposed documents don't provide a sound technic= al solution to the task of direct loss measurement. Please find my reasonin= g explaining my opinion of the *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm: * What is being proposed in these drafts? Drafts *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm propose a new protocol to support dire= ct packet loss measurements. Note, that RFC 6374 includes a method for dire= ct loss measurement in MPLS networks that is applicable to the SR-MPLS envi= ronment. Also, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv defines an extension to RFC= 8762 STAMP, the Direct Measurement TLV, that supports the direct packet lo= ss measurement. STAMP and all its extensions are applicable in IPv6 network= s and, thus, can be used in the SRv6 domain. As mentioned in previous replies, both RFC 6374 (in Section 4.2) and I= TU Y.1731 (in Section 8.1) define stand-alone messages for collecting TX an= d RX counters for direct-mode loss measurement. TWAMP/STAMP messages define= d in the drafts are equivalent of them that take advantage of the widely de= ployed TWAMP protocol and as well this same protocol can be deployed in IPv= 4/IPv6/MPLS/SRv6/EVPN/etc. networks. I think RFC6374 for MPLS and Y.1731 make some noise here. The point i= s if we need a new direct packet loss measurement for STAMP, when STAMP alr= eady defined a Direct Measurement TLV (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra= ft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv). If current Direct Measurement TLV cannot fu= lfill some use case requirement, then how about proposing a new TLV. * How the proposed method of direct packet loss is related to TWAMP lig= ht and STAMP? There's no apparent technical relationship between *-twamp-srpm and TWAMP L= ight, or *-stamp-srpm drafts and STAMP. Drafts do not extend or re-use the = basic mechanisms defined for TWAMP-Test and/or STAMP in their respective s= pecifications. Rather than that, drafts introduce a new query-response mode= and new formats of test packets that are decisively different from the for= mats defined in respective specifications. As a result, the new protocols a= re required to use different from used by TWAMP Light tr STAMP test session= UDP port numbers on the responder. And that is another clear indication th= at the proposed mechanism represents a new protocol, neither extends TWAMP = Light and/or STAMP nor updates their specifications. As mentioned in previous replies, other than timestamp vs. counter and= it's format, the messages and processing of them are the same for delay an= d direct-mode loss measurement. * Is there any advantage in introducing a dedicated packet format for t= he direct packet loss in STAMP comparing to using the Direct Measurement TL= V extension? Though it appears the using a dedicated packet format instead of TLV is mor= e efficient, but the dedicated for the direct loss measurement format is li= kely to precede one or even two TLVs, Node Address TLV and Path TLV, define= d in draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. As a result, processing of the new packe= t with TLVs is unlikely to be more efficient and reduce the processing dela= y, than if using the Direct Measurement TLV as defined in draft-ietf-ippm-s= tamp-option-tlv. As mentioned in previous replies, this is explained in Section 1 of th= e draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm. For link loss measurement (direct-mode), there is = no TLV required for example. For direct-mode loss measurement in SR network= s, it would typically be forward direction packet loss measurement (and not= bidirectional). * What are the potential benefits of specifying the return path in = the new test packet's Sender Control Code? Using the Sender Control Code may require the use of the additional TLV tha= t carries the return path information, Path TLV. If the ability to control = the return path is required that can be achieved by augmenting the STAMP YA= NG data model (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang) rather than including the Path T= LV in each test packet. Hence, there seem no technical requirements to intr= oduce the Sender Control Code field in the Base STAMP format defined in RFC= 8762. Per session basis between different sender nodes and this reflector no= de, some senders will request the replies in-band (e.g. for two-way mode). = Sessions are provisioned on the Sender nodes and reflector simply reflects = based on the received test-packet (e.g. for a bidirectional SR path). This = is also similar to as described Section 3.1 in RFC 6374, top of page 22. Th= ere is no need to create a such state for each session on the reflector nod= e and create a scale limitation. Recall that we are trying to avoid the sca= le limitation by eliminating the Control protocol signaling. I find some value to include the path TLV in wire. As Rakesh mentione= d, this can reduce the reflector configuration. But I am not convinced to i= ntroduce the sender control code field. It seems to me, the presence of pat= h TLV indicates the bidirectional congruent path. Vise versa. * What is the relationship between the *-srpm drafts and BFD? Some text in the *-srpm drafts suggest that the proposed method can be used= to monitor for the loss of a path continuity. That may be viewed as an alt= ernative to the BFD protocol method for the detection of a network failure.= If the discussion of Loopback mode and monitoring of liveness remain in th= e drafts, it seems logical that the BFD WG and BFD WG's Chairs be made awar= e of the proposals. I didn't take the liberty of adding BFD WG or its Chair= s. I believe that decision to be made by the Chairs of IPPM And SPRING WGs. As mentioned in previous replies, STAMP/TWAMP test messages are also u= sed today for synthetic packet loss measurement which can be also used to d= etect/monitor connection loss (performance metric). The draft simply highli= ghts this obvious metric. This is also very similar to what is described in= ITU Y.1731, Section 7.1. Thanks, Rakesh Regards, On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:10 PM Greg Mirsky > wrote: Hi Rakesh, thank you for your prompt response, much appreciated. I'll carefully read y= our responses. Looking forward to the continued discussion. Regards, Greg On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:07 PM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > wrote: Hi Greg, Thank you for your review comments. As mentioned in the IPPM session today,= the email response was sent as attachments, see archive blow: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/J503n-B2yOxF0urcHtGQKnqCRDE/ I am attaching them in word documents for the convenience. We can address y= our comments below in the next revision of the document. Thanks, Rakesh From: Greg Mirsky > Date: Friday, November 13, 2020 at 10:09 AM To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > Cc: Tommy Pauly >, IPPM Chairs >, spring-chairs@ietf.org >, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Rakesh, thank you for your response to my review. Please find my follow-up notes in= -lined below under the GIM>> tag. I hope you've found more detailed comments in the attachments (re-attached = for your convenience). I'm looking forward to reading your responses to the= detailed comments of all four drafts. Regards, Greg On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:11 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > wrote: Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and p= roviding the comments. Attached please find the email replies to your revi= ew sent earlier. The replies are copied inline below for convenience, tagg= ed with . From: ippm > Date: Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM To: Tommy Pauly > Cc: IPPM Chairs >, spring= -chairs@ietf.org >, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG community, I've reviewed these drafts and have some comments to share. Below, please f= ind my thoughts on whether these drafts can be adopted. More specific comme= nts on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft and its a= ccompanying draft targetted to the SPRING WG) are in the attached documents= . Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluated by answers= to these three questions: * Is the document(s) reasonably well-written I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology from RFCs 4656= /5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender = and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", ar= e used in the documents without proper definitions. Other than that both dr= afts are readable and reasonably well-written. We can change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Refl= ector if it helps. GIM>> I believe that the consistency in terminology between the core RFC an= d what is intended as its extension is not only helpful to a reader but, to= the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications. There are many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340= , 8330, etc.) and term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without definin= g them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having said tha= t, we can add a reference for them if it helps. GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. I think I need to clarify my questi= ons. While a reference to any of RFCs you've mentioned, I don't think that = will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitalized while= referenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can these be= used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object? Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using the term "congruent path" = in these drafts (using ASCII-art): C---------D / \ A----B E-----F \ / G------------H Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the network as A-B-C-D-E-F= . From the definition of "congruent" as "two figures or objects are congrue= nt if they have the same shape and size, or if one has the same shape and s= ize as the mirror image of the other", path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to the= SR tunnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to monitor a flow over t= he SR tunnel is out-of-band and will not produce any meaningful measurement= . Of course, for the case of the extensions in drafts, direct loss measurem= ent can be performed, as information collected from node F. So, this exampl= e, in my opinion, illustrates two of my concerns: * using a congruent path for an active OAM protocol may produce informa= tion that does not reflect the condition experienced by the monitored flow.= It seems that the terminology should reflect the fundamental requirement f= or using active OAM to maintain the test packets in-band with the monitored= flow. * there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band active O= AM protocol for direct packet loss measurement. As demonstrated in this exa= mple, direct packet loss can be performed using an out-of-band mechanism, e= .g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG data model. * Does the document solve a real problem? No, it appears that both TWAMP and STAMP drafts define a new performance = measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/TWAMP and STAMP fun= ctionality in the respective drafts, and adding the ability to collect coun= ters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find sufficient technical argument= s for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing O= AM mechanisms like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884. There is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as synth= etic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWA= MP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packet= loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a good opti= on here. GIM>> I agree with the requirements you've listed (though the SPRING WG OAM= requirements document has been abandoned and expired 3+ years ago). I believe th= at there's no sufficient technical reason to use OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for excl= usive direct packet loss measurement. * Is the proposed solution technically viable? There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced by= the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the propose= d solutions. About your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security s= ection in RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Secti= on as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in th= e domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other than this, I did n= ot find any other security related issue in your review. GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference sufficiently explains why the use= of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, does not create a = security risk for the protocol. Thanks, Rakesh Regards, Greg On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly > wrote: Hello IPPM, For the past few meetings, we've had updates on the work in the SPRING WG t= hat was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making extens= ions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it w= ould be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in th= e IPPM WG. As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption for draft-gandhi= -ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. The documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 The related SPRING documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether or not y= ou believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Pl= ease provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mo= nday, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --_000_d333def04f55416783d5078a75780685huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hi Rakesh and Greg,

     

    I may not very clear a= bout the context. Please allow me to jump in.

    It seems both of you m= ake some valid point.

    Please see in line wit= h <ZTR>.

     

    Cheers,

    Tianran

     

    From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org]= On Behalf Of Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi)
    Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 7:41 AM
    To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
    Cc: spring <spring@ietf.org>; IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf= .org>; spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmar= c.ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [spring] [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-tw= amp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

     

    Hi Greg= ,

    &n= bsp;

    Thank y= ou for your review and discussions on the drafts. This will help improve th= e work on this important work.

    Please = see replies inline with <RG>..

    &n= bsp;

     

    From: Greg= Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com<= /a>>
    Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 5:27 PM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <    rgandhi@cisco.com>
    Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IET= F IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi Rakesh, WG Chairs, and All,<= o:p>

    I've read the responses to my d= etailed comments. I don't think that only adding references will solve the = problems with the documents. If authors are interested in addressing my com= ments, we can start working on solving them one by one.

     

    <RG&= gt; As mentioned in previous replies, we can add references for the well-kn= own terms “Links”, “Congruent Paths”, “SR Pat= h”. If you prefer, we can define them here. For Zero checksum field, = we can add a reference for the RFC 6936 in Security section and also add some tex= t for it. Will be happy to work with you to address these.

    &n= bsp;

    But I am very much concerned wi= th the technical value of these drafts. And here's why I feel that the prop= osed documents don't provide a sound technical solution to the task of dire= ct loss measurement. Please find my reasoning explaining my opinion of the *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm:=

    • What is being proposed in these drafts?

    Drafts *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp= -srpm propose a new protocol to support direct packet loss measurements. No= te, that RFC 6374 includes a method for direct loss measurement in MPLS net= works that is applicable to the SR-MPLS environment. Also, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv defines an extension t= o RFC 8762 STAMP, the Direct Measurement TLV, that supports the direct pack= et loss measurement. STAMP and all its extensions are applicable in IPv6 ne= tworks and, thus, can be used in the SRv6 domain.

     

    <RG&= gt; As mentioned in previous replies, both RFC 6374 (in Section 4.2) and IT= U Y.1731 (in Section 8.1) define stand-alone messages for collecting TX and= RX counters for direct-mode loss measurement. TWAMP/STAMP messages defined in the drafts are equivalent of them that tak= e advantage of the widely deployed TWAMP protocol and as well this same pro= tocol can be deployed in IPv4/IPv6/MPLS/SRv6/EVPN/etc. networks.=

     

    <ZTR> I think RFC6374 for= MPLS and Y.1731 make some noise here. The point is if we need a new direct packet loss measurement for STAMP, when = STAMP already defined a Direct Measurement TLV (https://datatracker.ietf.or= g/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv). If current Direct Measurement TLV = cannot fulfill some use case requirement, then how about proposing a new TLV.=

    • How the proposed method of direct packet loss is relat= ed to TWAMP light and STAMP?

    There's no apparent technical r= elationship between *-twamp-srpm and TWAMP Light, or *-stamp-srpm drafts an= d STAMP. Drafts do not extend or re-use the basic mechanisms defined for&nb= sp; TWAMP-Test and/or STAMP in their respective specifications. Rather than that, drafts introduce a new query-response mo= de and new formats of test packets that are decisively different from the f= ormats defined in respective specifications. As a result, the new protocols= are required to use different from used by TWAMP Light tr STAMP test session UDP port numbers on the responde= r. And that is another clear indication that the proposed mechanism represe= nts a new protocol, neither extends TWAMP Light and/or STAMP nor updates th= eir specifications.

     

    <RG&= gt; As mentioned in previous replies, other than timestamp vs. counter and = it’s format, the messages and processing of them are the same for del= ay and direct-mode loss measurement.

    • Is there any advantage in introducing a dedicated pack= et format for the direct packet loss in STAMP comparing to using the Direct= Measurement TLV extension?

    Though it appears the using a d= edicated packet format instead of TLV is more efficient, but the dedicated = for the direct loss measurement format is likely to precede one or even two= TLVs, Node Address TLV and Path TLV, defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. As a result, processing of t= he new packet with TLVs is unlikely to be more efficient and reduce the pro= cessing delay, than if using the Direct Measurement TLV as defined in draft= -ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv.

     

    <RG&= gt; As mentioned in previous replies, this is explained in Section 1 of the draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm. = For link loss measurement (direct-mode), there is no TLV required for examp= le. For direct-mode loss measurement in SR networks, it would typically be forward direction packet loss= measurement (and not bidirectional).

     

     

    ·         What are the potential = benefits of specifying the return path in the new test packet's Sender Cont= rol Code?

    Using the Sender Control Code m= ay require the use of the additional TLV that carries the return path infor= mation, Path TLV. If the ability to control the return path is required tha= t can be achieved by augmenting the STAMP YANG data model (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang) rather than including t= he Path TLV in each test packet. Hence, there seem no technical requirement= s to introduce the Sender Control Code field in the Base STAMP format defin= ed in RFC 8762.

     

    <RG&= gt; Per session basis between different sender nodes and this reflector nod= e, some senders will request the replies in-band (e.g. for two-way mode). S= essions are provisioned on the Sender nodes and reflector simply reflects based on the received test-packet (e.g. for = a bidirectional SR path). This is also similar to as described Section 3.1 = in RFC 6374, top of page 22. There is no need to create a such state for ea= ch session on the reflector node and create a scale limitation. Recall that we are trying to avoid the scal= e limitation by eliminating the Control protocol signaling.

     

    <ZTR> I find some value t= o include the path TLV in wire. As Rakesh mentioned, this can reduce the re= flector configuration. But I am not convinced to introduce the sender contr= ol code field. It seems to me, the presence of path TLV indicates the bidirectional congruent path. Vise versa. <= /o:p>

    • What is the relationship between the *-srpm drafts and= BFD?

    Some text in the *-srpm drafts = suggest that the proposed method can be used to monitor for the loss o= f a path continuity. That may be viewed as an alternative to the BFD protoc= ol method for the detection of a network failure. If the discussion of Loopback mode and monitoring of liveness rem= ain in the drafts, it seems logical that the BFD WG and BFD WG's Chairs be = made aware of the proposals. I didn't take the liberty of adding BFD WG or = its Chairs. I believe that decision to be made by the Chairs of IPPM And SPRING WGs.

     

    <RG&= gt; As mentioned in previous replies, STAMP/TWAMP test messages are also us= ed today for synthetic packet loss measurement which can be also used to detect/m= onitor connection loss (performance metric). The draft simply highlights th= is obvious metric. This is also very similar to what is described in ITU Y.= 1731, Section 7.1.

    &n= bsp;

    Thanks,=

    Rakesh<= o:p>

    =  

    = Regards,

     

     

    On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:10 P= M Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

    Hi Rakesh,

    thank you for your prompt respo= nse, much appreciated. I'll carefully read your responses. Looking for= ward to the continued discussion.

     

    Regards,

    Greg

     

    On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:07 P= M Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com> wrote:

    Hi Greg,

     

    Thank you for your review comments. As mentio= ned in the IPPM session today, the email response was sent as attachments, = see archive blow:

    https://mailarchiv= e.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/J503n-B2yOxF0urcHtGQKnqCRDE/=

     

    I am attaching them in word documents for the= convenience. We can address your comments below in the next revision of th= e document.

     

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

     

     

    From: Greg= Mirsky <greg= imirsky@gmail.com>
    Date: Friday, November 13, 2020 at 10:09 AM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com>
    Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IPPM Chairs &l= t;ippm-chairs@iet= f.org>, spring-chairs@i= etf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi Rakesh,

    thank you for your response to my review. Ple= ase find my follow-up notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.<= /o:p>

    I hope you've found more detailed comments in= the attachments (re-attached for your convenience). I'm looking forward to= reading your responses to the detailed comments of all four drafts.

     

    Regards,

    Greg

     

    On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:11 AM Rakesh Gandhi= (rgandhi) <rgand= hi@cisco.com> wrote:

    Thank you Greg for ta= king time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and providing the comments= .  Attached please find the email replies to your review sent earlier.  The replies are copied inline below for= convenience, tagged with <RG00>.

     

     

    From: ippm= <ippm-bounce= s@ietf.org>
    Date: Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM
    To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@i= etf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG communit= y,

    I've reviewed these drafts and have some comm= ents to share. Below, please find my thoughts on whether these drafts can b= e adopted. More specific comments on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft and its accompanying=  draft targetted to the SPRING WG) are in the attached documents.=

     

    Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document= can be evaluated by answers to these three questions:

    ·=   Is the document(s) reasonably well-written=

    I've got surprised that the drafts don't use th= e terminology from RFCs 4656/5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. = Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", are used in the= documents without proper definitions. Other than that both drafts are read= able and reasonably well-written.

     

    <RG00> We can c= hange Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Reflector if it hel= ps. 

    GIM>> I believe that the consistency in= terminology between the core RFC and what is intended as its extension is = not only helpful to a reader but, to the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications.

    <RG00> There ar= e many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340, 8330, etc.) a= nd term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without defining them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having = said that, we can add a reference for them if it helps.

    GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs.= I think I need to clarify my questions. While a reference to any of RFCs y= ou've mentioned, I don't think that will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitalized while r= eferenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can = these be used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object?

    Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with us= ing the term "congruent path" in these drafts (using ASCII-art):<= o:p>

                &nb= sp;          C---------D

                &nb= sp;        /            &= nbsp;    \

                A--= --B                   E--= ---F

                &nb= sp;        \            &= nbsp;     /

                &nb= sp;        G------------H

    Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traver= ses the network as A-B-C-D-E-F. From the definition of "congruent"= ; as "two figures or objects are congruent if they have the same shape and size, or if one has the same shape and size as the= mirror image of the other", path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to the SR t= unnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to monitor a flow over the SR= tunnel is out-of-band and will not produce any meaningful measurement. Of course, for the case of the extensions in d= rafts, direct loss measurement can be performed, as information collected f= rom node F. So, this example, in my opinion, illustrates two of my concerns= :

    • using a congruent path for an active OAM protocol may = produce information that does not reflect the condition experienced by the = monitored flow. It seems that the terminology should reflect the fundamenta= l requirement for using active OAM to maintain the test packets in-band with the monitored flow.
    • there are no technical requirements to justify using i= n-band active OAM protocol for direct packet loss measurement. As demonstra= ted in this example, direct packet loss can be performed using an out-of-ba= nd mechanism, e.g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG data model.

     

    ·=   Does the document solve a real problem?

    No, it appears that  both TWAMP and STAMP drafts  define a new performance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/= TWAMP and STAMP functionality in the respective drafts, and adding the abil= ity to collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find = sufficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing OAM mechanisms= like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884.

     

    <RG00> There is= a requirement to measure performance delay as well as synthetic and direct= -mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and sy= nthetic packet loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM = is a good option here.

    GIM>> I agree with the requirement= s you've listed (though the SPRING WG OAM requirements document has been abandoned and expired 3= 3; years ago). I believe that there's no sufficient technical reason t= o use OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for exclusive direct packet loss measurement. =

     

    ·=   Is the proposed solution technically viable?

    There are too many unaddressed aspects, particu= larly the risk introduced by the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the proposed solutions.

     

    <RG00> About yo= ur comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security section in RFC 6= 936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally pr= ovisioned in the domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other tha= n this, I did not find any other security related issue in your review.

    GIM>> I don't think that a mere referen= ce sufficiently explains why the use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is= not decremental, does not create a security risk for the protocol.

     

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

     

     

    Regards,=

    Greg

     

     

     

     

    On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly = <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

    Hello IPPM,

     

    For the past few meetings, we’ve had up= dates on the work in the SPRING WG that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since th= ose documents ended up making extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it would be= best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in the IPPM = WG.

     

    As such, we are starting a Working Group call= for adoption for draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-s= tamp-srpm.

     

    Please provide your feedback on these documen= ts, and state whether or not you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work= by replying to this email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Monday, Nov= ember 16.

     

    Best,

    Tommy & Ian

    _____________________________________________= __
    ippm mailing list
    ippm@ietf.org
    ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

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d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Mt51ahb8xKMxpJ9vFg/Od33KrpAR1zHmD+/WbhHE4lY=; b=R8hYkYSZGNIwAlISm0lGi6rZtSzHeRnfzOeYYB6rA9xG21lL+MUsK+Lo61PjKe6dPL Ag3nRp9p4YOTKv379qYfm/xfHcrYADV+UXemcIZ3eXytdprXiA9cOUZQfBe+Kp59oQ07 Y3H6q7LMWFB9ueQv088ociQGkhtEXhr3wHAg0LcDejyhE39Isa7xCbPRPUh0Fc63KOWL PRlN0MJOT+8cdU52sZVfObSpb0NWwXYcJrrywf01fBDmVVIzM6RWxrZ0VFcbDO2HtcVp fw2QMyjFmFP1oyW3pC7mhDDCgcxOKGymHFB4fwDBT4bM61dScI7zRV624dV2jgx8wqHl 0tbg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Mt51ahb8xKMxpJ9vFg/Od33KrpAR1zHmD+/WbhHE4lY=; b=RORlhFAnz0aTpAiGipjX8ppRZXP66ajApLnGWBnw3cw9A49uh8OCqu4dw6RHDehhco hBpQK0ElXxe4mch+fmQETJBXRX16oNHZaprlEM8m++CdrSUfPnMAFI8+8T/lqiSzCzPi C4E9a9DrDpxDcMIJMJAGiVbyvDz3t39bDT8VoaoIgVTK3HJKUL1KtLMP8wPW/C4PZSeM URhvht4Qvqsd1QVK2KrlBmwyfx1Bi33hsFic3GAjvch6tuaaRj1qGKYoNdLsaoZaG/AT q2kO59PXvBefAnCIcV3ZpRoQn479wkHa2ogvix+WAbMDNhUau5rbkqUjTREdAeyxRfFL 60Ew== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531pNRuXpij5bvNEIbCmrfT8WuVgdlC1nm5EpUpnQBFRa1O3Y003 yWfWRB3mv/aL/3qs/HAuuaVgZJvCSh4XqxRCVJA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw72PtsTCYu9+d3/xqbmiNp38HHpadNXammw1KphMat9QnSkbHZyc3uwXU9IPHk54y9GWokmJUhmTpAL3/vwmE= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:46cc:: with SMTP id p12mr4776254lfo.56.1605765218275; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 21:53:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 21:53:24 -0800 Message-ID: To: Tianran Zhou Cc: "Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi)" , spring , IPPM Chairs , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" , Tommy Pauly , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006d96bc05b46f59ab" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 05:53:46 -0000 --0000000000006d96bc05b46f59ab Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tianran, thank you for sharing your perspective on the *-SRPM drafts and the discussion, it is very refreshing and thought-provoking. I believe that you've hit the nail on the head by pointing to what is missing from the discussion - the agreed by the WGs set of the requirements. I absolutely agree with you, without a clear understanding of the requirements documents appear as a solution that is looking for a problem to be solved. Instead of discussing issues with the proposed new protocol, it may be helpful to take a step back and discuss requirements. For example, how to evaluate the efficiency of different methods of direct packet loss measurement. Or, as you've pointed out, compare the pros and cons of configuring metadata for the duration of a test session vs. carrying metadata in each test packet. And, as was noted by other reviewers of the drafts, the requirements are likely to be applicable not only to a Segment Routing but to a network in general. Regards, Greg On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 9:33 PM Tianran Zhou wrote= : > Hi Rakesh and Greg, > > > > I may not very clear about the context. Please allow me to jump in. > > It seems both of you make some valid point. > > Please see in line with . > > > > Cheers, > > Tianran > > > > *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Rakesh > Gandhi (rgandhi) > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 18, 2020 7:41 AM > *To:* Greg Mirsky > *Cc:* spring ; IPPM Chairs ; > spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy Pauly = ; > IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > *Subject:* Re: [spring] [ippm] Call for adoption: > draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm > > > > Hi Greg, > > > > Thank you for your review and discussions on the drafts. This will help > improve the work on this important work. > > Please see replies inline with .. > > > > > > *From: *Greg Mirsky > *Date: *Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 5:27 PM > *To: *Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > *Cc: *Tommy Pauly , IPPM Chairs < > ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org , > IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) , spring > *Subject: *Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and > draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm > > Hi Rakesh, WG Chairs, and All, > > I've read the responses to my detailed comments. I don't think that only > adding references will solve the problems with the documents. If authors > are interested in addressing my comments, we can start working on > solving them one by one. > > > > As mentioned in previous replies, we can add references for the > well-known terms =E2=80=9CLinks=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9CCongruent Paths=E2=80= =9D, =E2=80=9CSR Path=E2=80=9D. If you prefer, we > can define them here. For Zero checksum field, we can add a reference for > the RFC 6936 in Security section and also add some text for it. Will be > happy to work with you to address these. > > > > But I am very much concerned with the technical value of these drafts. An= d > here's why I feel that the proposed documents don't provide a sound > technical solution to the task of direct loss measurement. Please find my > reasoning explaining my opinion of the *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm: > > - What is being proposed in these drafts? > > Drafts *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm propose a new protocol to support > direct packet loss measurements. Note, that RFC 6374 includes a method fo= r > direct loss measurement in MPLS networks that is applicable to the SR-MPL= S > environment. Also, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv defines an extension = to > RFC 8762 STAMP, the Direct Measurement TLV, that supports the direct pack= et > loss measurement. STAMP and all its extensions are applicable in IPv6 > networks and, thus, can be used in the SRv6 domain. > > > > As mentioned in previous replies, both RFC 6374 (in Section 4.2) and > ITU Y.1731 (in Section 8.1) define stand-alone messages for collecting TX > and RX counters for direct-mode loss measurement. TWAMP/STAMP messages > defined in the drafts are equivalent of them that take advantage of the > widely deployed TWAMP protocol and as well this same protocol can be > deployed in IPv4/IPv6/MPLS/SRv6/EVPN/etc. networks. > > > > I think RFC6374 for MPLS and Y.1731 make some noise here. The point > is if we need a new direct packet loss measurement for STAMP, when STAMP > already defined a Direct Measurement TLV ( > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv). If > current Direct Measurement TLV cannot fulfill some use case requirement, > then how about proposing a new TLV. > > - How the proposed method of direct packet loss is related to TWAMP > light and STAMP? > > There's no apparent technical relationship between *-twamp-srpm and TWAMP > Light, or *-stamp-srpm drafts and STAMP. Drafts do not extend or re-use t= he > basic mechanisms defined for TWAMP-Test and/or STAMP in their respective > specifications. Rather than that, drafts introduce a new query-response > mode and new formats of test packets that are decisively different from t= he > formats defined in respective specifications. As a result, the new > protocols are required to use different from used by TWAMP Light tr STAMP > test session UDP port numbers on the responder. And that is another clear > indication that the proposed mechanism represents a new protocol, neither > extends TWAMP Light and/or STAMP nor updates their specifications. > > > > As mentioned in previous replies, other than timestamp vs. counter > and it=E2=80=99s format, the messages and processing of them are the same= for delay > and direct-mode loss measurement. > > - Is there any advantage in introducing a dedicated packet format for > the direct packet loss in STAMP comparing to using the Direct Measurem= ent > TLV extension? > > Though it appears the using a dedicated packet format instead of TLV is > more efficient, but the dedicated for the direct loss measurement format = is > likely to precede one or even two TLVs, Node Address TLV and Path TLV, > defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. As a result, processing of the n= ew > packet with TLVs is unlikely to be more efficient and reduce the processi= ng > delay, than if using the Direct Measurement TLV as defined in > draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv. > > > > As mentioned in previous replies, this is explained in Section 1 of > the draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm > . For > link loss measurement (direct-mode), there is no TLV required for example= . > For direct-mode loss measurement in SR networks, it would *typically* be > forward direction packet loss measurement (and not bidirectional). > > > > > > =C2=B7 What are the potential benefits of specifying the return p= ath > in the new test packet's Sender Control Code? > > Using the Sender Control Code may require the use of the additional TLV > that carries the return path information, Path TLV. If the ability to > control the return path is required that can be achieved by augmenting th= e > STAMP YANG data model (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang) rather than including > the Path TLV in each test packet. Hence, there seem no technical > requirements to introduce the Sender Control Code field in the Base STAMP > format defined in RFC 8762. > > > > Per session basis between different sender nodes and this reflector > node, some senders will request the replies in-band (e.g. for two-way > mode). Sessions are provisioned on the Sender nodes and reflector simply > reflects based on the received test-packet (e.g. for a bidirectional SR > path). This is also similar to as described Section 3.1 in RFC 6374, top = of > page 22. There is no need to create a such state for each session on the > reflector node and create a scale limitation. Recall that we are trying t= o > avoid the scale limitation by eliminating the Control protocol signaling. > > > > I find some value to include the path TLV in wire. As Rakesh > mentioned, this can reduce the reflector configuration. But I am not > convinced to introduce the sender control code field. It seems to me, the > presence of path TLV indicates the bidirectional congruent path. Vise > versa. > > - What is the relationship between the *-srpm drafts and BFD? > > Some text in the *-srpm drafts suggest that the proposed method can be > used to monitor for the loss of a path continuity. That may be viewed as = an > alternative to the BFD protocol method for the detection of a network > failure. If the discussion of Loopback mode and monitoring of liveness > remain in the drafts, it seems logical that the BFD WG and BFD WG's Chair= s > be made aware of the proposals. I didn't take the liberty of adding BFD W= G > or its Chairs. I believe that decision to be made by the Chairs of IPPM A= nd > SPRING WGs. > > > > As mentioned in previous replies, STAMP/TWAMP test messages are also > used today for *synthetic* packet loss measurement which can be also used > to detect/monitor connection loss (performance metric). The draft simply > highlights this obvious metric. This is also very similar to what is > described in ITU Y.1731, Section 7.1. > > > > Thanks, > > Rakesh > > > > Regards, > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:10 PM Greg Mirsky > wrote: > > Hi Rakesh, > > thank you for your prompt response, much appreciated. I'll carefully read > your responses. Looking forward to the continued discussion. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:07 PM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) < > rgandhi@cisco.com> wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > > > Thank you for your review comments. As mentioned in the IPPM session > today, the email response was sent as attachments, see archive blow: > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/J503n-B2yOxF0urcHtGQKnqCRDE/ > > > > I am attaching them in word documents for the convenience. We can address > your comments below in the next revision of the document. > > > > Thanks, > > Rakesh > > > > > > *From: *Greg Mirsky > *Date: *Friday, November 13, 2020 at 10:09 AM > *To: *Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > *Cc: *Tommy Pauly , IPPM Chairs < > ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org , > IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > *Subject: *Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and > draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm > > Hi Rakesh, > > thank you for your response to my review. Please find my follow-up notes > in-lined below under the GIM>> tag. > > I hope you've found more detailed comments in the attachments (re-attache= d > for your convenience). I'm looking forward to reading your responses to t= he > detailed comments of all four drafts. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:11 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > wrote: > > Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and > providing the comments. Attached please find the email replies to your > review sent earlier. The replies are copied inline below for convenience= , > tagged with . > > > > > > *From: *ippm > *Date: *Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM > *To: *Tommy Pauly > *Cc: *IPPM Chairs , spring-chairs@ietf.org < > spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > *Subject: *Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and > draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm > > Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG community, > > I've reviewed these drafts and have some comments to share. Below, please > find my thoughts on whether these drafts can be adopted. More specific > comments on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft an= d > its accompanying draft targetted to the SPRING WG) are in the attached > documents. > > > > Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluated by > answers to these three questions: > > =C2=B7 Is the document(s) reasonably well-written > > I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology from RFCs > 4656/5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for > Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, > "congruent paths", are used in the documents without proper definitions. > Other than that both drafts are readable and reasonably well-written. > > > > We can change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to > Session-Reflector if it helps. > > GIM>> I believe that the consistency in terminology between the core RFC > and what is intended as its extension is not only helpful to a reader but= , > to the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications. > > There are many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, > 5340, 8330, etc.) and term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without > defining them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having > said that, we can add a reference for them if it helps. > > GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. I think I need to clarify my > questions. While a reference to any of RFCs you've mentioned, I don't thi= nk > that will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitalize= d > while referenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can > these be used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object? > > Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using the term "congruent path= " > in these drafts (using ASCII-art): > > C---------D > > / \ > > A----B E-----F > > \ / > > G------------H > > Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the network as > A-B-C-D-E-F. From the definition of "congruent" as "two figures or object= s > are congruent if they have the same shape and size, or if one has the sam= e > shape and size as the mirror image of the other", path A-B-G-H-E-F is > congruent to the SR tunnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to > monitor a flow over the SR tunnel is out-of-band and will not produce any > meaningful measurement. Of course, for the case of the extensions in > drafts, direct loss measurement can be performed, as information collecte= d > from node F. So, this example, in my opinion, illustrates two of my > concerns: > > - using a congruent path for an active OAM protocol may produce > information that does not reflect the condition experienced by the > monitored flow. It seems that the terminology should reflect the > fundamental requirement for using active OAM to maintain the test pack= ets > in-band with the monitored flow. > - there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band active > OAM protocol for direct packet loss measurement. As demonstrated in th= is > example, direct packet loss can be performed using an out-of-band > mechanism, e.g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG dat= a > model. > > > > =C2=B7 Does the document solve a real problem? > > No, it appears that both TWAMP and STAMP drafts define a new > performance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/TWAMP > and STAMP functionality in the respective drafts, and adding the ability = to > collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find sufficient > technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, > extending the existing OAM mechanisms like ICMP multi-part message > extension per RFC 4884. > > > > There is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as > synthetic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP > and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthet= ic > packet loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a > good option here. > > GIM>> I agree with the requirements you've listed (though the SPRING WG > OAM requirements document > has > been abandoned and expired 3+ years ago). I believe that there's no > sufficient technical reason to use OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for exclusive direct > packet loss measurement. > > > > =C2=B7 Is the proposed solution technically viable? > > There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced > by the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the > proposed solutions. > > > > About your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security > section in RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security > Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisione= d > in the domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other than this, = I > did not find any other security related issue in your review. > > GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference sufficiently explains why the > use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, does not crea= te > a security risk for the protocol. > > > > Thanks, > > Rakesh > > > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly 40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Hello IPPM, > > > > For the past few meetings, we=E2=80=99ve had updates on the work in the S= PRING WG > that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making > extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided > that it would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension > work in the IPPM WG. > > > > As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption > for draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. > > > > The documents are here: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 > > > The related SPRING documents are here: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 > > > > Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether or not > you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. > Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, o= n *Monday, > November 16*. > > > > Best, > > Tommy & Ian > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > --0000000000006d96bc05b46f59ab Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Tianran,
    thank you for sharing your perspective=C2= =A0on the *-SRPM drafts=C2=A0and the discussion, it is very refreshing and = thought-provoking. I believe that you've hit the nail on the head by po= inting to what is missing from the discussion - the agreed by the WGs set o= f the requirements. I absolutely agree with you, without a clear understand= ing of the requirements documents appear=C2=A0as a solution that is looking= for a problem to=C2=A0be solved. Instead of discussing issues with the pro= posed new protocol, it may be helpful to take a step back and discuss requi= rements. For example, how to evaluate the efficiency of different methods o= f direct packet loss measurement. Or, as you've pointed out, compare th= e pros and cons of configuring metadata=C2=A0for the duration of a test ses= sion vs. carrying metadata=C2=A0in each test packet.=C2=A0 And, as was note= d by other=C2=A0reviewers of the drafts, the requirements are likely to be = applicable not only to a Segment Routing but to a network in general.
    =

    Regards,
    Greg

    On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 9:= 33 PM Tianran Zhou <zhoutianra= n@huawei.com> wrote:

    Hi Rakesh and G= reg,

    =C2=A0

    I may not very = clear about the context. Please allow me to jump in.

    It seems both o= f you make some valid point.

    Please see in l= ine with <ZTR>.

    =C2=A0

    Cheers,<= u>

    Tianran<= u>

    =C2=A0

    From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh= alf Of Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi)
    Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 7:41 AM
    To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
    Cc: spring <= spring@ietf.org>; IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>; spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy Pa= uly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [spring] [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-tw= amp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    =C2=A0

    = Hi Greg,

    = =C2=A0

    = Thank you for your review and discussions on the drafts. This will help imp= rove the work on this important work.

    = Please see replies inline with <RG>..

    = =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    From: Greg M= irsky <gregim= irsky@gmail.com>
    Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 5:27 PM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com>
    Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IPPM = Chairs <ippm-c= hairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@i= etf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi Rakesh, WG Chairs, and All,<= u>

    I've read the responses to = my detailed comments. I don't think that only adding references will so= lve the problems with the documents. If authors are interested in addressin= g my comments, we can start working on solving=C2=A0them one by one.

    =C2=A0

    = <RG> As mentioned in previous replies, we can add references for the = well-known terms =E2=80=9CLinks=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9CCongruent Paths=E2=80=9D= , =E2=80=9CSR Path=E2=80=9D. If you prefer, we can define them here. For Ze= ro checksum field, we can add a reference for the RFC 6936 in Security section and also add some tex= t for it. Will be happy to work with you to address these.

    = =C2=A0

    But I am very much concerned wi= th the technical value of these drafts. And here's why I feel that the = proposed documents don't provide a sound technical solution to the task= of direct loss measurement.=C2=A0Please find my reasoning explaining=C2=A0my opinion of the *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm:=

    • What is being proposed in these drafts?<= /span>

    Drafts *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp= -srpm propose a new protocol to support direct packet loss measurements. No= te, that RFC 6374 includes a method for direct loss measurement in MPLS net= works that is applicable to the SR-MPLS environment. Also, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv defines an extension t= o RFC 8762 STAMP, the Direct Measurement TLV, that supports the direct pack= et loss measurement. STAMP and all its extensions are applicable in IPv6 ne= tworks and, thus, can be used in the SRv6 domain.

    =C2=A0

    = <RG> As mentioned in previous replies, both RFC 6374 (in Section 4.2)= and ITU Y.1731 (in Section 8.1) define stand-alone messages for collecting= TX and RX counters for direct-mode loss measurement. TWAMP/STAMP messages defined in the drafts are equivalent of them that tak= e advantage of the widely deployed TWAMP protocol and as well this same pro= tocol can be deployed in IPv4/IPv6/MPLS/SRv6/EVPN/etc. networks.<= /u>

    =C2=A0

    <ZTR> I think RFC6374 for= MPLS and Y.1731 make some noise here. The point is if we need a new direct packet loss measurement for STAMP, when = STAMP already defined a Direct Measurement TLV (https:= //datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv). If curren= t Direct Measurement TLV cannot fulfill some use case requirement, then how about proposing a new TLV.<= /u>

    • How the proposed method of direct packet loss is relat= ed to TWAMP light and STAMP?

    There's no apparent technic= al relationship between *-twamp-srpm and TWAMP Light, or *-stamp-srpm draft= s and STAMP. Drafts do not extend or re-use the basic mechanisms defined fo= r=C2=A0 TWAMP-Test and/or STAMP in their respective specifications. Rather than that, drafts introduce a new query-response mo= de and new formats of test packets that are decisively different from the f= ormats defined in respective specifications. As a result, the new protocols= are required to use different from used by TWAMP Light tr STAMP test session UDP port numbers on the responde= r. And that is another clear indication that the proposed mechanism represe= nts a new protocol, neither extends TWAMP Light and/or STAMP nor updates th= eir specifications.

    =C2=A0

    = <RG> As mentioned in previous replies, other than timestamp vs. count= er and it=E2=80=99s format, the messages and processing of them are the sam= e for delay and direct-mode loss measurement.

    • Is there any advantage in introducing a dedicated pack= et format for the direct packet loss in STAMP comparing to using the Direct= Measurement TLV extension?

    Though it appears the using a d= edicated packet format instead of TLV is more efficient, but the dedicated = for the direct loss measurement format is likely to precede one or even two= TLVs, Node Address TLV and Path TLV, defined in=C2=A0draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. As a result, processing of t= he new packet with TLVs is unlikely to be more efficient and reduce the pro= cessing delay, than if using the Direct Measurement TLV as defined in draft= -ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv.

    =C2=A0

    = <RG> As mentioned in previous replies, this is explained in Section 1= of the draft-gandhi-sprin= g-stamp-srpm. For link loss measurement (direct-mode), there is = no TLV required for example. For direct-mode loss measurement in SR networks, it would typically be forward direction packet loss= measurement (and not bidirectional).

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    =C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 What are the potential ben= efits of specifying the return path in the new test packet's Sender Con= trol Code?

    Using the Sender Control Code m= ay require the use of the additional TLV that carries the return path infor= mation, Path TLV. If the ability to control the return path is required tha= t can be achieved by augmenting the STAMP YANG data model (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang) rather than including t= he Path TLV in each test packet. Hence, there seem no technical requirement= s to introduce the Sender Control Code field in the Base STAMP format defin= ed in RFC 8762.

    =C2=A0

    = <RG> Per session basis between different sender nodes and this reflec= tor node, some senders will request the replies in-band (e.g. for two-way m= ode). Sessions are provisioned on the Sender nodes and reflector simply reflects based on the received test-packet (e.g. for = a bidirectional SR path). This is also similar to as described Section 3.1 = in RFC 6374, top of page 22. There is no need to create a such state for ea= ch session on the reflector node and create a scale limitation. Recall that we are trying to avoid the scal= e limitation by eliminating the Control protocol signaling.

    =C2=A0

    <ZTR> I find some value t= o include the path TLV in wire. As Rakesh mentioned, this can reduce the re= flector configuration. But I am not convinced to introduce the sender contr= ol code field. It seems to me, the presence of path TLV indicates the bidirectional congruent path. Vise versa.

    • What is the relationship between the *-srpm drafts and= BFD?

    Some text in the *-srpm drafts = suggest that the proposed method can be used=C2=A0to monitor for the loss o= f a path continuity. That may be viewed as an alternative to the BFD protoc= ol method for the detection of a network failure. If the discussion of Loopback mode and monitoring of liveness rem= ain in the drafts, it seems logical that the BFD WG and BFD WG's Chairs= be made aware of the proposals. I didn't take the liberty of adding BF= D WG or its Chairs. I believe that decision to be made by the Chairs of IPPM And SPRING WGs.

    =C2=A0

    = <RG> As mentioned in previous replies, STAMP/TWAMP test messages are = also used today for synthetic packet loss measurement which can be also used to detect/m= onitor connection loss (performance metric). The draft simply highlights th= is obvious metric. This is also very similar to what is described in ITU Y.= 1731, Section 7.1.

    = =C2=A0

    = Thanks,

    = Rakesh

    =C2=A0

    Re= gards,

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:10 P= M Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

    Hi Rakesh,=

    thank you for your prompt respo= nse,=C2=A0much appreciated. I'll carefully read your responses. Looking= forward to the continued discussion.

    =C2=A0

    Regards,

    Greg

    =C2=A0

    On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:07 P= M Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com> wrote:

    Hi Greg,

    =C2=A0

    Thank you for your review comme= nts. As mentioned in the IPPM session today, the email response was sent as= attachments, see archive blow:

    http= s://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/J503n-B2yOxF0urcHtGQKnqCRDE/<= /u>

    =C2=A0

    I am attaching them in word doc= uments for the convenience. We can address your comments below in the next = revision of the document.

    =C2=A0

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    From: Greg M= irsky <gregim= irsky@gmail.com>
    Date: Friday, November 13, 2020 at 10:09 AM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com>
    Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IPPM Chairs &l= t;ippm-chairs@iet= f.org>, spring-chairs@i= etf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm    <= /span>

    Hi Rakesh,=

    thank you for your response to = my review. Please find my follow-up notes in-lined below under the GIM>&= gt; tag.

    I hope you've found more de= tailed comments in the attachments (re-attached for your convenience). I= 9;m looking forward to reading your responses=C2=A0to the detailed comments of all four drafts.

    =C2=A0

    Regards,

    Greg

    =C2=A0

    On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:11 AM= Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com> wrote:

    = Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and p= roviding the comments.=C2=A0 Attached please find the email replies to your review sent earlier.=C2=A0 The replies are copied inline below for= convenience, tagged with <RG00>.<= u>

    = =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    From: ippm &= lt;ippm-bounces@= ietf.org>
    Date: Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM
    To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@i= etf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm    <= /span>

    Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IP= PM WG community,

    I've reviewed these drafts = and have some comments to share. Below, please find my thoughts on whether = these drafts can be adopted. More specific comments on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft and its accompanying= =C2=A0draft targetted=C2=A0to the SPRING WG) are in the attached documents.=

    =C2=A0

    Usually, the bar for the adoption o= f a document can be evaluated=C2=A0by answers to these three questions:

    =C2=B7=C2=A0 Is the document(s) reasonably well-written

    I've got surprised that the dra= fts don't use the terminology from RFCs 4656/5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. = Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", are used in the= documents without proper definitions. Other than that both drafts are read= able and reasonably well-written.=

    =C2=A0

    = <RG00> We can change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to Sessio= n-Reflector if it helps.=C2=A0

    GIM>> I believe that the = consistency in terminology between the core RFC and what is intended as its= extension is not only helpful to a reader but, to the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications.

    = <RG00> There are many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613= , 5340, 8330, etc.) and term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without defining them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having = said that, we can add a reference for them if it helps.

    GIM>> Thank you for listi= ng these RFCs. I think I need to clarify my questions. While a reference to= any of RFCs you've mentioned, I don't think that will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitalized while r= eferenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can = these be used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object?=

    Now I'll try to illustrate = my concern with using the term "congruent path" in these drafts (= using ASCII-art):

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0C---------D

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0\

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 A----B=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0E-----F

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0\=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0G------------H

    Consider an SR tunnel from A to= F that traverses the network as A-B-C-D-E-F. From the definition of "= congruent" as "two figures or objects are congruent if they have the same shape and size, or if one has the same shape and size as the= mirror image of the other", path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to the SR t= unnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to monitor a flow over the SR= tunnel is out-of-band and will not produce any meaningful measurement. Of course, for the case of the extensions in d= rafts, direct loss measurement can be performed, as information collected f= rom node F. So, this example, in my opinion, illustrates two of my concerns= :

    • using a congruent path for an active OAM protocol may = produce information that does not reflect the condition experienced by the = monitored flow. It seems that the terminology should reflect the fundamenta= l requirement for using active OAM to maintain the test packets in-band with the monitored flow.
    • there are no technical requirements to justify using i= n-band active OAM protocol for direct packet loss measurement. As demonstra= ted in this example, direct packet loss can be performed using an out-of-ba= nd mechanism, e.g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG data model.
      • <= /ul>

    =C2=A0

    =C2=B7=C2=A0 Does the document solve a real problem?

    No, it appears that=C2=A0 both TWAMP and STAMP drafts=C2=A0define a new performance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/= TWAMP and STAMP functionality in the respective drafts, and adding the abil= ity to collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't f= ind sufficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing OAM mechanisms= like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884.

    =C2=A0

    = <RG00> There is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as= synthetic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and sy= nthetic packet loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM = is a good option here.

    GIM>> I agree with the=C2= =A0requirements you've listed (though the SPRING WG OAM requirements document has been abandoned and expired 3+ y= ears ago). I believe that there's no sufficient technical reason=C2=A0t= o use OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for exclusive direct packet loss measurement.=C2=A0=

    =C2=A0

    =C2=B7=C2=A0 Is the proposed solution technically viable?=

    There are too many unaddressed aspe= cts, particularly the risk introduced by the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the proposed solutions.

    =C2=A0<= u>

    = <RG00> About your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Secu= rity section in RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally pr= ovisioned in the domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other tha= n this, I did not find any other security related issue in your review.

    GIM>> I don't think t= hat a mere reference sufficiently explains why the use of zero UDP checksum= in IPv6 header is not decremental, does not create a security risk for the protocol.

    = =C2=A0

    = Thanks,

    = Rakesh

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    Regards,

    Greg=

    =C2=A0<= /p>

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0<= /p>

    =C2=A0

    On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 A= M Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

    Hello IPPM,

    =C2=A0

    For the past few meetings, we= =E2=80=99ve had updates on the work in the SPRING WG that was using STAMP a= nd TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it would be= best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in the IPPM = WG.

    =C2=A0

    As such, we are starting a Work= ing Group call for adoption for=C2=A0draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft= -gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm.

    =C2=A0

    Please provide your feedback on= these documents, and state whether or not you believe the IPPM WG should a= dopt this work by replying to this email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Monday, Nov= ember 16.

    =C2=A0

    Best,

    Tommy & Ian

    _______________________________= ________________
    ippm mailing list
    ippm@ietf.org
    ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

    --0000000000006d96bc05b46f59ab-- From nobody Wed Nov 18 23:41:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5238E3A111A; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 23:41:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HhKHBTIRTSEc; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 23:41:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3AF033A1116; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 23:41:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml709-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.226]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4CcBQX4RxRz67FD8; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 15:39:32 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml709-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.37) by fraeml709-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 08:41:24 +0100 Received: from DGGEML403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.33) by fraeml709-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.1913.5 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 08:41:24 +0100 Received: from DGGEML530-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.200]) by DGGEML403-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::74d9:c659:fbec:21fa%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 15:41:12 +0800 From: Mach Chen To: Tianran Zhou , "Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi)" , Greg Mirsky CC: spring , IPPM Chairs , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" , Tommy Pauly , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Thread-Index: AQHWrutxTJVi9zzpG0iVJvrFDESlT6m/jAuAgAGIKYCABKWmAIAEH64AgAAA6ACAAqNCgIAAFHgAgAH03ICAAKEOYA== Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 07:41:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.140] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE297FCCAD2dggeml530mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 07:41:32 -0000 --_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE297FCCAD2dggeml530mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tianran, Rakesh and Greg, Please see some responses inline with [Mach]... From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tianran Zhou Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 1:33 PM To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) ; Greg Mi= rsky Cc: spring ; IPPM Chairs ; spring-ch= airs@ietf.org; Tommy Pauly ; IETF IPPM= WG (ippm@ietf.org) Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Rakesh and Greg, I may not very clear about the context. Please allow me to jump in. It seems both of you make some valid point. Please see in line with . Cheers, Tianran From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rakesh Gandhi (r= gandhi) Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 7:41 AM To: Greg Mirsky > Cc: spring >; IPPM Chairs >; spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy Pauly >; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: Re: [spring] [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srp= m and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Greg, Thank you for your review and discussions on the drafts. This will help imp= rove the work on this important work. Please see replies inline with .. From: Greg Mirsky > Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 5:27 PM To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > Cc: Tommy Pauly >, IPPM Chairs >, spring-chairs@ietf.org >, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.o= rg) >, spring > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Rakesh, WG Chairs, and All, I've read the responses to my detailed comments. I don't think that only ad= ding references will solve the problems with the documents. If authors are = interested in addressing my comments, we can start working on solving them = one by one. As mentioned in previous replies, we can add references for the well-k= nown terms "Links", "Congruent Paths", "SR Path". If you prefer, we can def= ine them here. For Zero checksum field, we can add a reference for the RFC = 6936 in Security section and also add some text for it. Will be happy to wo= rk with you to address these. But I am very much concerned with the technical value of these drafts. And = here's why I feel that the proposed documents don't provide a sound technic= al solution to the task of direct loss measurement. Please find my reasonin= g explaining my opinion of the *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm: * What is being proposed in these drafts? Drafts *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm propose a new protocol to support dire= ct packet loss measurements. Note, that RFC 6374 includes a method for dire= ct loss measurement in MPLS networks that is applicable to the SR-MPLS envi= ronment. Also, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv defines an extension to RFC= 8762 STAMP, the Direct Measurement TLV, that supports the direct packet lo= ss measurement. STAMP and all its extensions are applicable in IPv6 network= s and, thus, can be used in the SRv6 domain. As mentioned in previous replies, both RFC 6374 (in Section 4.2) and I= TU Y.1731 (in Section 8.1) define stand-alone messages for collecting TX an= d RX counters for direct-mode loss measurement. TWAMP/STAMP messages define= d in the drafts are equivalent of them that take advantage of the widely de= ployed TWAMP protocol and as well this same protocol can be deployed in IPv= 4/IPv6/MPLS/SRv6/EVPN/etc. networks. I think RFC6374 for MPLS and Y.1731 make some noise here. The point i= s if we need a new direct packet loss measurement for STAMP, when STAMP alr= eady defined a Direct Measurement TLV (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra= ft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv). If current Direct Measurement TLV cannot fu= lfill some use case requirement, then how about proposing a new TLV. [Mach] Given that TWAMP does not support TLV, I assume that the discussions= are mainly about draft*-stamp-srpm. [Mach] In the case of direct packet loss measurement, draft-gandhi-ippm-sta= mp-srpm assumes that marking-based solution (which can address the packet o= ut-ordering issue) is used, hence the block number is introduced. The block= number is used to correlate the counters from the sender and reflector. Th= e current direct loss measurement TLV may just apply to the scenario withou= t packet out-ordering. [Mach] In addition, whether to keep it as current design or to define a new= TLV for direct loss measurement can be debatable. How the proposed method of direct packet loss is related to TWAMP light and= STAMP? There's no apparent technical relationship between *-twamp-srpm and TWAMP L= ight, or *-stamp-srpm drafts and STAMP. Drafts do not extend or re-use the = basic mechanisms defined for TWAMP-Test and/or STAMP in their respective s= pecifications. Rather than that, drafts introduce a new query-response mode= and new formats of test packets that are decisively different from the for= mats defined in respective specifications. As a result, the new protocols a= re required to use different from used by TWAMP Light tr STAMP test session= UDP port numbers on the responder. And that is another clear indication th= at the proposed mechanism represents a new protocol, neither extends TWAMP = Light and/or STAMP nor updates their specifications. As mentioned in previous replies, other than timestamp vs. counter and= it's format, the messages and processing of them are the same for delay an= d direct-mode loss measurement. * Is there any advantage in introducing a dedicated packet format for t= he direct packet loss in STAMP comparing to using the Direct Measurement TL= V extension? Though it appears the using a dedicated packet format instead of TLV is mor= e efficient, but the dedicated for the direct loss measurement format is li= kely to precede one or even two TLVs, Node Address TLV and Path TLV, define= d in draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. As a result, processing of the new packe= t with TLVs is unlikely to be more efficient and reduce the processing dela= y, than if using the Direct Measurement TLV as defined in draft-ietf-ippm-s= tamp-option-tlv. As mentioned in previous replies, this is explained in Section 1 of th= e draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm. For link loss measurement (direct-mode), there is = no TLV required for example. For direct-mode loss measurement in SR network= s, it would typically be forward direction packet loss measurement (and not= bidirectional). * What are the potential benefits of specifying the return path in = the new test packet's Sender Control Code? Using the Sender Control Code may require the use of the additional TLV tha= t carries the return path information, Path TLV. If the ability to control = the return path is required that can be achieved by augmenting the STAMP YA= NG data model (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang) rather than including the Path T= LV in each test packet. Hence, there seem no technical requirements to intr= oduce the Sender Control Code field in the Base STAMP format defined in RFC= 8762. Per session basis between different sender nodes and this reflector no= de, some senders will request the replies in-band (e.g. for two-way mode). = Sessions are provisioned on the Sender nodes and reflector simply reflects = based on the received test-packet (e.g. for a bidirectional SR path). This = is also similar to as described Section 3.1 in RFC 6374, top of page 22. Th= ere is no need to create a such state for each session on the reflector nod= e and create a scale limitation. Recall that we are trying to avoid the sca= le limitation by eliminating the Control protocol signaling. I find some value to include the path TLV in wire. As Rakesh mentione= d, this can reduce the reflector configuration. But I am not convinced to i= ntroduce the sender control code field. It seems to me, the presence of pat= h TLV indicates the bidirectional congruent path. Vise versa. [Mach] Regarding how to specify the return path, the draft defines two ways= to achieve that, one is to use control code to direct whether the reflecte= d Test should be along the reverse path of a bidirectional path, this appli= es to both TWAMP (no TLV mechanisms) and STAMP. At the same time, in the ca= se of STAMP, it also defines the return path TLV to explicitly specify the = return path, which bring more options to specify the return path. Therefore= , I see benefit of the two ways. Best regards, Mach What is the relationship between the *-srpm drafts and BFD? Some text in the *-srpm drafts suggest that the proposed method can be used= to monitor for the loss of a path continuity. That may be viewed as an alt= ernative to the BFD protocol method for the detection of a network failure.= If the discussion of Loopback mode and monitoring of liveness remain in th= e drafts, it seems logical that the BFD WG and BFD WG's Chairs be made awar= e of the proposals. I didn't take the liberty of adding BFD WG or its Chair= s. I believe that decision to be made by the Chairs of IPPM And SPRING WGs. As mentioned in previous replies, STAMP/TWAMP test messages are also u= sed today for synthetic packet loss measurement which can be also used to d= etect/monitor connection loss (performance metric). The draft simply highli= ghts this obvious metric. This is also very similar to what is described in= ITU Y.1731, Section 7.1. Thanks, Rakesh Regards, On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:10 PM Greg Mirsky > wrote: Hi Rakesh, thank you for your prompt response, much appreciated. I'll carefully read y= our responses. Looking forward to the continued discussion. Regards, Greg On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:07 PM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > wrote: Hi Greg, Thank you for your review comments. As mentioned in the IPPM session today,= the email response was sent as attachments, see archive blow: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/J503n-B2yOxF0urcHtGQKnqCRDE/ I am attaching them in word documents for the convenience. We can address y= our comments below in the next revision of the document. Thanks, Rakesh From: Greg Mirsky > Date: Friday, November 13, 2020 at 10:09 AM To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > Cc: Tommy Pauly >, IPPM Chairs >, spring-chairs@ietf.org >, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Rakesh, thank you for your response to my review. Please find my follow-up notes in= -lined below under the GIM>> tag. I hope you've found more detailed comments in the attachments (re-attached = for your convenience). I'm looking forward to reading your responses to the= detailed comments of all four drafts. Regards, Greg On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:11 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > wrote: Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and p= roviding the comments. Attached please find the email replies to your revi= ew sent earlier. The replies are copied inline below for convenience, tagg= ed with . From: ippm > Date: Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM To: Tommy Pauly > Cc: IPPM Chairs >, spring= -chairs@ietf.org >, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG community, I've reviewed these drafts and have some comments to share. Below, please f= ind my thoughts on whether these drafts can be adopted. More specific comme= nts on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft and its a= ccompanying draft targetted to the SPRING WG) are in the attached documents= . Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluated by answers= to these three questions: * Is the document(s) reasonably well-written I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology from RFCs 4656= /5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender = and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", ar= e used in the documents without proper definitions. Other than that both dr= afts are readable and reasonably well-written. We can change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Refl= ector if it helps. GIM>> I believe that the consistency in terminology between the core RFC an= d what is intended as its extension is not only helpful to a reader but, to= the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications. There are many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340= , 8330, etc.) and term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without definin= g them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having said tha= t, we can add a reference for them if it helps. GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. I think I need to clarify my questi= ons. While a reference to any of RFCs you've mentioned, I don't think that = will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitalized while= referenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can these be= used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object? Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using the term "congruent path" = in these drafts (using ASCII-art): C---------D / \ A----B E-----F \ / G------------H Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the network as A-B-C-D-E-F= . From the definition of "congruent" as "two figures or objects are congrue= nt if they have the same shape and size, or if one has the same shape and s= ize as the mirror image of the other", path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to the= SR tunnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to monitor a flow over t= he SR tunnel is out-of-band and will not produce any meaningful measurement= . Of course, for the case of the extensions in drafts, direct loss measurem= ent can be performed, as information collected from node F. So, this exampl= e, in my opinion, illustrates two of my concerns: * using a congruent path for an active OAM protocol may produce informa= tion that does not reflect the condition experienced by the monitored flow.= It seems that the terminology should reflect the fundamental requirement f= or using active OAM to maintain the test packets in-band with the monitored= flow. * there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band active O= AM protocol for direct packet loss measurement. As demonstrated in this exa= mple, direct packet loss can be performed using an out-of-band mechanism, e= .g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG data model. * Does the document solve a real problem? No, it appears that both TWAMP and STAMP drafts define a new performance = measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/TWAMP and STAMP fun= ctionality in the respective drafts, and adding the ability to collect coun= ters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find sufficient technical argument= s for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing O= AM mechanisms like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884. There is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as synth= etic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWA= MP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packet= loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a good opti= on here. GIM>> I agree with the requirements you've listed (though the SPRING WG OAM= requirements document has been abandoned and expired 3+ years ago). I believe th= at there's no sufficient technical reason to use OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for excl= usive direct packet loss measurement. * Is the proposed solution technically viable? There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced by= the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the propose= d solutions. About your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security s= ection in RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Secti= on as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in th= e domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other than this, I did n= ot find any other security related issue in your review. GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference sufficiently explains why the use= of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, does not create a = security risk for the protocol. Thanks, Rakesh Regards, Greg On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly > wrote: Hello IPPM, For the past few meetings, we've had updates on the work in the SPRING WG t= hat was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making extens= ions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it w= ould be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in th= e IPPM WG. As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption for draft-gandhi= -ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. The documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 The related SPRING documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether or not y= ou believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Pl= ease provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mo= nday, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --_000_F73A3CB31E8BE34FA1BBE3C8F0CB2AE297FCCAD2dggeml530mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hi Tianran, Rakesh and Greg,

     

    Please see some responses inline with [Mach]…

     

    From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tianran Zhou
    Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 1:33 PM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org= >; Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
    Cc: spring <spring@ietf.org>; IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf= .org>; spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmar= c.ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

     

    Hi Rake= sh and Greg,

    &n= bsp;

    I may n= ot very clear about the context. Please allow me to jump in.

    It seem= s both of you make some valid point.

    Please = see in line with <ZTR>.

    &n= bsp;

    Cheers,=

    Tianran=

    &n= bsp;

    From: spring [mailto:sprin= g-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi)
    Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 7:41 AM
    To: Greg Mirsky <gregimi= rsky@gmail.com>
    Cc: spring <spring@ietf.org>; IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@= ietf.org>; spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy= Pauly <tpauly=3D= 40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.o= rg>
    Subject: Re: [spring] [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-tw= amp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

     

    Hi Greg= ,

    &n= bsp;

    Thank y= ou for your review and discussions on the drafts. This will help improve th= e work on this important work.

    Please = see replies inline with <RG>..

    &n= bsp;

     

    From: Greg= Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com<= /a>>
    Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 5:27 PM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <    rgandhi@cisco.com>
    Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IET= F IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi Rakesh, WG Chairs, and All,<= o:p>

    I've read the responses to my d= etailed comments. I don't think that only adding references will solve the = problems with the documents. If authors are interested in addressing my com= ments, we can start working on solving them one by one.

     

    <RG&= gt; As mentioned in previous replies, we can add references for the well-kn= own terms “Links”, “Congruent Paths”, “SR Pat= h”. If you prefer, we can define them here. For Zero checksum field, = we can add a reference for the RFC 6936 in Security section and also add some tex= t for it. Will be happy to work with you to address these.

    &n= bsp;

    But I am very much concerned wi= th the technical value of these drafts. And here's why I feel that the prop= osed documents don't provide a sound technical solution to the task of dire= ct loss measurement. Please find my reasoning explaining my opinion of the *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm:=

    • What is being proposed in these drafts?

    Drafts *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp= -srpm propose a new protocol to support direct packet loss measurements. No= te, that RFC 6374 includes a method for direct loss measurement in MPLS net= works that is applicable to the SR-MPLS environment. Also, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv defines an extension t= o RFC 8762 STAMP, the Direct Measurement TLV, that supports the direct pack= et loss measurement. STAMP and all its extensions are applicable in IPv6 ne= tworks and, thus, can be used in the SRv6 domain.

     

    <RG&= gt; As mentioned in previous replies, both RFC 6374 (in Section 4.2) and IT= U Y.1731 (in Section 8.1) define stand-alone messages for collecting TX and= RX counters for direct-mode loss measurement. TWAMP/STAMP messages defined in the drafts are equivalent of them that tak= e advantage of the widely deployed TWAMP protocol and as well this same pro= tocol can be deployed in IPv4/IPv6/MPLS/SRv6/EVPN/etc. networks.=

     

    <ZTR> I think RFC6374 for= MPLS and Y.1731 make some noise here. The point is if we need a new direct= packet loss measurement for STAMP, when STAMP already defined a Direct Mea= surement TLV (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-opt= ion-tlv). If current Direct Measurement TLV cannot fulfill some use case requirement= , then how about proposing a new TLV.

     

    [Mach] Given that TWAMP does not support TLV, I assume that the d= iscussions are mainly about draft*-stamp-srpm.

     

    [Mach] In the case of direct packet loss measurement, draft-gandh= i-ippm-stamp-srpm assumes that marking-based solution (which can address th= e packet out-ordering issue) is used, hence the block number is introduced. The block number is used to correlat= e the counters from the sender and reflector. The current direct loss measu= rement TLV may just apply to the scenario without packet out-ordering.

     

    [Mach] In addition, whether to keep it as current design or to de= fine a new TLV for direct loss measurement can be debatable.  

     

    How the proposed method of dire= ct packet loss is related to TWAMP light and STAMP?

    There's no apparent technical r= elationship between *-twamp-srpm and TWAMP Light, or *-stamp-srpm drafts an= d STAMP. Drafts do not extend or re-use the basic mechanisms defined for&nb= sp; TWAMP-Test and/or STAMP in their respective specifications. Rather than that, drafts introduce a new query-response mo= de and new formats of test packets that are decisively different from the f= ormats defined in respective specifications. As a result, the new protocols= are required to use different from used by TWAMP Light tr STAMP test session UDP port numbers on the responde= r. And that is another clear indication that the proposed mechanism represe= nts a new protocol, neither extends TWAMP Light and/or STAMP nor updates th= eir specifications.

     

    <RG&= gt; As mentioned in previous replies, other than timestamp vs. counter and = it’s format, the messages and processing of them are the same for del= ay and direct-mode loss measurement.

    • Is there any advantage in introducing a dedicated pack= et format for the direct packet loss in STAMP comparing to using the Direct= Measurement TLV extension?

    Though it appears the using a d= edicated packet format instead of TLV is more efficient, but the dedicated = for the direct loss measurement format is likely to precede one or even two= TLVs, Node Address TLV and Path TLV, defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. As a result, processing of t= he new packet with TLVs is unlikely to be more efficient and reduce the pro= cessing delay, than if using the Direct Measurement TLV as defined in draft= -ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv.

     

    <RG&= gt; As mentioned in previous replies, this is explained in Section 1 of the draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm. = For link loss measurement (direct-mode), there is no TLV required for examp= le. For direct-mode loss measurement in SR networks, it would typically be forward direction packet loss= measurement (and not bidirectional).

     

     

    ·         What are the potential = benefits of specifying the return path in the new test packet's Sender Cont= rol Code?

    Using the Sender Control Code m= ay require the use of the additional TLV that carries the return path infor= mation, Path TLV. If the ability to control the return path is required tha= t can be achieved by augmenting the STAMP YANG data model (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang) rather than including t= he Path TLV in each test packet. Hence, there seem no technical requirement= s to introduce the Sender Control Code field in the Base STAMP format defin= ed in RFC 8762.

     

    <RG&= gt; Per session basis between different sender nodes and this reflector nod= e, some senders will request the replies in-band (e.g. for two-way mode). S= essions are provisioned on the Sender nodes and reflector simply reflects based on the received test-packet (e.g. for = a bidirectional SR path). This is also similar to as described Section 3.1 = in RFC 6374, top of page 22. There is no need to create a such state for ea= ch session on the reflector node and create a scale limitation. Recall that we are trying to avoid the scal= e limitation by eliminating the Control protocol signaling.

     

    <ZTR> I find some value t= o include the path TLV in wire. As Rakesh mentioned, this can reduce the re= flector configuration. But I am not convinced to introduce the sender contr= ol code field. It seems to me, the presence of path TLV indicates the bidirectional congruent path. Vise versa. <= /o:p>

     

    [Mach] Regarding how to specify the return path, the draft define= s two ways to achieve that, one is to use control code to direct whether th= e reflected Test should be along the reverse path of a bidirectional path, this applies to both TWAMP (no TLV mechanism= s) and STAMP. At the same time, in the case of STAMP, it also defines the r= eturn path TLV to explicitly specify the return path, which bring more opti= ons to specify the return path. Therefore, I see benefit of the two ways.

     

     

    Best regards,

    Mach

     

    What is the relationship betwee= n the *-srpm drafts and BFD?

    Some text in the *-srpm drafts = suggest that the proposed method can be used to monitor for the loss o= f a path continuity. That may be viewed as an alternative to the BFD protoc= ol method for the detection of a network failure. If the discussion of Loopback mode and monitoring of liveness rem= ain in the drafts, it seems logical that the BFD WG and BFD WG's Chairs be = made aware of the proposals. I didn't take the liberty of adding BFD WG or = its Chairs. I believe that decision to be made by the Chairs of IPPM And SPRING WGs.

     

    <RG&= gt; As mentioned in previous replies, STAMP/TWAMP test messages are also us= ed today for synthetic packet loss measurement which can be also used to detect/m= onitor connection loss (performance metric). The draft simply highlights th= is obvious metric. This is also very similar to what is described in ITU Y.= 1731, Section 7.1.

    &n= bsp;

    Thanks,=

    Rakesh<= o:p>

    =  

    = Regards,

     

     

    On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:10 P= M Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

    Hi Rakesh,

    thank you for your prompt respo= nse, much appreciated. I'll carefully read your responses. Looking for= ward to the continued discussion.

     

    Regards,

    Greg

     

    On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:07 P= M Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com> wrote:

    Hi Greg,

     

    Thank you for your review comments. As mentio= ned in the IPPM session today, the email response was sent as attachments, = see archive blow:

    https://mailarchiv= e.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/J503n-B2yOxF0urcHtGQKnqCRDE/=

     

    I am attaching them in word documents for the= convenience. We can address your comments below in the next revision of th= e document.

     

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

     

     

    From: Greg= Mirsky <greg= imirsky@gmail.com>
    Date: Friday, November 13, 2020 at 10:09 AM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com>
    Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IPPM Chairs &l= t;ippm-chairs@iet= f.org>, spring-chairs@i= etf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi Rakesh,

    thank you for your response to my review. Ple= ase find my follow-up notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.<= /o:p>

    I hope you've found more detailed comments in= the attachments (re-attached for your convenience). I'm looking forward to= reading your responses to the detailed comments of all four drafts.

     

    Regards,

    Greg

     

    On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:11 AM Rakesh Gandhi= (rgandhi) <rgand= hi@cisco.com> wrote:

    Thank you Greg for ta= king time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and providing the comments= .  Attached please find the email replies to your review sent earlier.  The replies are copied inline below for= convenience, tagged with <RG00>.

     

     

    From: ippm= <ippm-bounce= s@ietf.org>
    Date: Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM
    To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@i= etf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG communit= y,

    I've reviewed these drafts and have some comm= ents to share. Below, please find my thoughts on whether these drafts can b= e adopted. More specific comments on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft and its accompanying=  draft targetted to the SPRING WG) are in the attached documents.=

     

    Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document= can be evaluated by answers to these three questions:

    ·=   Is the document(s) reasonably well-written=

    I've got surprised that the drafts don't use th= e terminology from RFCs 4656/5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. = Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", are used in the= documents without proper definitions. Other than that both drafts are read= able and reasonably well-written.

     

    <RG00> We can c= hange Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Reflector if it hel= ps. 

    GIM>> I believe that the consistency in= terminology between the core RFC and what is intended as its extension is = not only helpful to a reader but, to the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications.

    <RG00> There ar= e many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340, 8330, etc.) a= nd term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without defining them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having = said that, we can add a reference for them if it helps.

    GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs.= I think I need to clarify my questions. While a reference to any of RFCs y= ou've mentioned, I don't think that will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitalized while r= eferenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can = these be used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object?

    Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with us= ing the term "congruent path" in these drafts (using ASCII-art):<= o:p>

                &nb= sp;          C---------D

                &nb= sp;        /            &= nbsp;    \

                A--= --B                   E--= ---F

                &nb= sp;        \            &= nbsp;     /

                &nb= sp;        G------------H

    Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traver= ses the network as A-B-C-D-E-F. From the definition of "congruent"= ; as "two figures or objects are congruent if they have the same shape and size, or if one has the same shape and size as the= mirror image of the other", path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to the SR t= unnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to monitor a flow over the SR= tunnel is out-of-band and will not produce any meaningful measurement. Of course, for the case of the extensions in d= rafts, direct loss measurement can be performed, as information collected f= rom node F. So, this example, in my opinion, illustrates two of my concerns= :

    • using a congruent path for an active OAM protocol may = produce information that does not reflect the condition experienced by the = monitored flow. It seems that the terminology should reflect the fundamenta= l requirement for using active OAM to maintain the test packets in-band with the monitored flow.
    • there are no technical requirements to justify using i= n-band active OAM protocol for direct packet loss measurement. As demonstra= ted in this example, direct packet loss can be performed using an out-of-ba= nd mechanism, e.g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG data model.

     

    ·=   Does the document solve a real problem?

    No, it appears that  both TWAMP and STAMP drafts  define a new performance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/= TWAMP and STAMP functionality in the respective drafts, and adding the abil= ity to collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find = sufficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing OAM mechanisms= like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884.

     

    <RG00> There is= a requirement to measure performance delay as well as synthetic and direct= -mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and sy= nthetic packet loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM = is a good option here.

    GIM>> I agree with the requirement= s you've listed (though the SPRING WG OAM requirements document has been abandoned and expired 3= 3; years ago). I believe that there's no sufficient technical reason t= o use OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for exclusive direct packet loss measurement. =

     

    ·=   Is the proposed solution technically viable?

    There are too many unaddressed aspects, particu= larly the risk introduced by the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the proposed solutions.

     

    <RG00> About yo= ur comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security section in RFC 6= 936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally pr= ovisioned in the domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other tha= n this, I did not find any other security related issue in your review.

    GIM>> I don't think that a mere referen= ce sufficiently explains why the use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is= not decremental, does not create a security risk for the protocol.

     

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

     

     

    Regards,=

    Greg

     

     

     

     

    On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly = <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

    Hello IPPM,

     

    For the past few meetings, we’ve had up= dates on the work in the SPRING WG that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since th= ose documents ended up making extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it would be= best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in the IPPM = WG.

     

    As such, we are starting a Working Group call= for adoption for draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-s= tamp-srpm.

     

    Please provide your feedback on these documen= ts, and state whether or not you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work= by replying to this email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Monday, Nov= ember 16.

     

    Best,

    Tommy & Ian

    _____________________________________________= __
    ippm mailing list
    ippm@ietf.org
    ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

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From: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" To: "xiao.min2@zte.com.cn" CC: "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" , "fbrockne=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , "tpauly=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Re:[ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state Thread-Index: Ada+UluIfYJh1Y18RrikylOeHVlzJw== Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 09:00:17 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.153.195.204] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB02CC3C88dggeml529mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 09:00:32 -0000 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by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A54B3A0DCA for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 05:57:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cnet.fi.uba.ar (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67BA5140077; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 10:57:51 -0300 (ART) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at cnet.fi.uba.ar Received: from cnet.fi.uba.ar ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (cnet.fi.uba.ar [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yeq0NdWpK1aa; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 10:57:40 -0300 (ART) Received: from [192.168.0.13] (unknown [181.46.139.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by cnet.fi.uba.ar (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AD6CE140068; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 10:57:40 -0300 (ART) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 10:57:26 -0300 Cc: ippm@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <42412AD5-67F0-49CE-8AA0-156A49D75C48@cnet.fi.uba.ar> References: <159376413634.18432.970239984476460419@ietfa.amsl.com> <30B64F4F-6947-4ACB-8717-BF32143241EE@cnet.fi.uba.ar> <626A4A7E-0941-46F8-947E-4CC24DFC86CE@cnet.fi.uba.ar> To: Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 13:57:59 -0000 Hi R=C3=BCdiger,=20 Just another comment on the congestion: You cannot rely on the RTT = change because its statistical distribution is complex. In some cases, = RTT on a link can be assumed Gaussian, but the general case is the = alpha-stable, a generalization of the Gaussian one. The underlying = distribution is important because you will face heavy tail distributions = where average and standard deviation have no meaning. Notice that = measurements are correlated with the time-window to compute them. = Another point that needs to take care of is that it is not clear the = definition of congestion, as always happens. For some people means one = thing, like "the link utilization is less than 95% of its capacity,"; = which leads to having some systematic errors because it changes = according to the selected time-window. What do you intent to = characterize as "congestion"? In my opinion, one solution is to analyze = if delays are highly increased; for instance, when some link is = overload, its buffer is plenty (introducing some extra delay), and a lot = of packets are discarded. If you consider it useful, I can collaborate on this point.=20 Best, J. Ignacio=20 _______________________________________________________________ Dr. Ing. Jos=C3=A9 Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin CONICET and Facultad de Ingenier=C3=ADa, Universidad de Buenos Aires Av. Paseo Col=C3=B3n 850 - C1063ACV - Buenos Aires - Argentina +54 (11) 5285 0716 / 5285 0705 e-mail: ihameli@cnet.fi.uba.ar web: http://cnet.fi.uba.ar/ignacio.alvarez-hamelin/ _______________________________________________________________ > On 19 Nov 2020, at 10:14, = wrote: >=20 > Hi Ignacio, >=20 > Thanks for supporting adoption.=20 >=20 > The doc you refer to mentions " Principal component analysis" to = figure out which overlaid measurements dominate an observed behavior = (sets of origin to destination flow samples and observed link load). As = the topology of the network to be monitored is assumed to be known as = prerequisite of the suggested metric, the "principal component" to be = detected is, e.g., a congested interface (a lost connectivity is a = different one). As topology and measurement paths are set-up in = pre-designed and controlled way, it is known at set up time, which = changes in the measurements are caused by which event (with the = expectation of a singular change to be detected only).=20 >=20 > Al asked me to provide text on the change point detection mechanism. = Consecutive delay measurements on a single measurement path are supposed = to be constant without congestion. So the difference between delays = d1(t1)-d1(t0) =3D=3D 0. It is non zero in case of congestion at time t1. = That will be the core point (but that in itself isn't a change point = detection). I'm thinking about cumulative sums with some noise tolerance = here and will put that down in the next version. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > R=C3=BCdiger >=20 >=20 > -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht----- > Von: J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin =20 > Gesendet: Montag, 16. November 2020 16:14 > An: Geib, R=C3=BCdiger > Cc: ippm-chairs@ietf.org; ippm@ietf.org > Betreff: Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for = draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03.txt >=20 > Dear R=C3=BCdiger, >=20 > I agree that the paper intends to do another thing. My point is, if = you know the topology, you have to choose the minimum number of paths to = make the measurements. Part of the paper that I suggested and thought = could be useful is to select the paths regarding the graph adjacency = matrix (and no the measurements itself). There are multiple methods; I = just signaling this one because it is one of the first work to do so, = for my knowledge. I hope that could be useful for you.=20 >=20 > By the way, I support this draft = draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring. >=20 >=20 > Best, >=20 > J. Ignacio >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________________________ >=20 > Dr. Ing. Jos=C3=A9 Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin > CONICET and Facultad de Ingenier=C3=ADa, Universidad de Buenos Aires = Av. Paseo Col=C3=B3n 850 - C1063ACV - Buenos Aires - Argentina > +54 (11) 5285 0716 / 5285 0705 > e-mail: ihameli@cnet.fi.uba.ar > web: http://cnet.fi.uba.ar/ignacio.alvarez-hamelin/ > _______________________________________________________________ >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 16 Nov 2020, at 05:46, = wrote: >>=20 >> Dear Ignacio, >>=20 >> Thanks. I agree that one should minimize the number of measurements = required to monitor a desired set of paths. That was one of my = motivations when I designed the method specified by the draft. >>=20 >> There are however some differences between the document you've = referenced below and my approach: >> - the authors of "Structural analysis of network traffic flows" had = limited means of detecting the network topology. They further were able = to set up SPF single origin to single destination measurements only. = Finally, the exact SPF path taken in a network was often part of what = was to be detected.=20 >> - My / the drafts starting point is: exact knowledge of the topology = and the ability to concatenate and forward packets along sets of SPF = paths by Segment Routing. By that, my design aim was to measure, what a = ping can measure with no more packets than a ping and add location of = congestion while not requiring router interaction apart from forwarding. = That is a minimisation already (I didn't think I need to propose any new = draft if it required more packets or measurement paths than a ping). = Taking that point of view, who auf the WG is having a better idea to = further minimize the number of paths while being able to extract "ping" = data, add location of congestion and stay in forwarding is invited to = publish.=20 >>=20 >> Regards, >>=20 >> Ruediger >>=20 >>=20 >> -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht----- >> Von: J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin >> Gesendet: Montag, 16. November 2020 08:00 >> An: Geib, R=C3=BCdiger >> Cc: ippm-chairs@ietf.org; ippm@ietf.org >> Betreff: Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for=20 >> draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03.txt >>=20 >> Dear Ruediger, >>=20 >> It is an excellent proposition that I saw in the papers some time = ago. Network tomography is somehow complicated because it would like, if = I understand correctly, to measure different paths and characteristics = with a minimum of paths. Could you consider to include some technique to = compute these paths? I know that isn't very easy, but it could be a = precious improvement. I know that is dependent on the topology, but = there are some excellent techniques to reduce the fraction of paths to = measure. I include a paper doing this through the reduction of the = number of paths (there are others): >>=20 >> Lakhina A, Papagiannaki K, Crovella M, Diot C, Kolaczyk ED, Taft N. = Structural analysis of network traffic flows. In Proceedings of the = Joint International Conference on Measurement and Modeling of Computer = Systems 2004 Jun 1 (pp. 61-72). >>=20 >> Perhaps you can cite this work as a possible method to compute that = and include some methodology about the selection on the end-points, = which leads to define the size of the problem and improve your = proposition. Why is the size important? Because you would like to use = the minimum number of testing paths to minimize the traffic and process = them quickly. Besides, this technique could be used in many cases, not = just in a particular topology. Eventually, I can help with this = particular point.=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Best regards, >>=20 >> J. Ignacio >>=20 >> _______________________________________________________________ >>=20 >> Dr. Ing. Jos=C3=A9 Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin >> CONICET and Facultad de Ingenier=C3=ADa, Universidad de Buenos Aires = Av.=20 >> Paseo Col=C3=B3n 850 - C1063ACV - Buenos Aires - Argentina >> +54 (11) 5285 0716 / 5285 0705 >> e-mail: ihameli@cnet.fi.uba.ar >> web: http://cnet.fi.uba.ar/ignacio.alvarez-hamelin/ >> _______________________________________________________________ >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 3 Jul 2020, at 05:41, Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de wrote: >>>=20 >>> Dear chairs, >>>=20 >>> draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring has been presented during = the IPPM IETF 107.=20 >>> The new version addresses the request to add information on = periodicity of the measurements.=20 >>> I've added text in section 3.8 "Reporting the metric". Minor changes=20= >>> in the introduction aim on better comprehensibility. >>>=20 >>> I don't participate at IETF 108 (online registration is charged this = time, bad for participants in vacation).=20 >>> I'd nevertheless ask for adoption as a WG doc (but that may also be=20= >>> postponed until IETF 109, when I will try to participate and present=20= >>> the draft). Comments on the draft and your guidance regarding steps = to adoption is welcome. >>>=20 >>> Regards, >>>=20 >>> Ruediger >>>=20 >>> -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht----- >>> Von: internet-drafts@ietf.org >>> Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Juli 2020 10:16 >>> An: Geib, R=C3=BCdiger >>> Betreff: New Version Notification for=20 >>> draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03.txt >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> A new version of I-D, draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03.txt >>> has been successfully submitted by Ruediger Geib and posted to the = IETF repository. >>>=20 >>> Name: draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring >>> Revision: 03 >>> Title: A Connectivity Monitoring Metric for IPPM >>> Document date: 2020-07-03 >>> Group: Individual Submission >>> Pages: 13 >>> URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitori= ng-03.txt >>> Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring/ >>> Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03 >>> Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitor= ing >>> Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitorin= g-03 >>>=20 >>> Abstract: >>> Within a Segment Routing domain, segment routed measurement packets =20= >>> can be sent along pre-determined paths. This enables new kinds of =20= >>> measurements. Connectivity monitoring allows to supervise the state = =20 >>> and performance of a connection or a (sub)path from one or a few =20 >>> central monitoring systems. This document specifies a suitable =20 >>> type-P connectivity monitoring metric. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org. >>>=20 >>> The IETF Secretariat >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ippm mailing list >>> ippm@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >>=20 >=20 From nobody Thu Nov 19 06:19:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFE143A1078 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 06:19:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, 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boundary="_000_DM6PR11MB31159A70B271EDD1D7F9201FBFE00DM6PR11MB3115namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR11MB3115.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c5d6c633-297a-4cb5-e7b8-08d88c9df204 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Nov 2020 15:15:26.9814 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: qyXoWsHcgO33u2MHyjGZs7zCNN5AVTyJpB/mXDzdJ3UTR2LSedNxOVNUANZ09Pp0qZz5l5uxReRk6mIImZS5EQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR11MB2683 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.14, xch-aln-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-7.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 15:16:13 -0000 --_000_DM6PR11MB31159A70B271EDD1D7F9201FBFE00DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you Mach and Tianran for your review comments. Please see inline reply with =85 From: Mach Chen Date: Thursday, November 19, 2020 at 2:41 AM To: Tianran Zhou , Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) , Greg Mirsky Cc: spring , IPPM Chairs , spring-ch= airs@ietf.org , Tommy Pauly , IET= F IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Subject: RE: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Tianran, Rakesh and Greg, Please see some responses inline with [Mach]=85 From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tianran Zhou Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 1:33 PM To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) ; Greg Mi= rsky Cc: spring ; IPPM Chairs ; spring-ch= airs@ietf.org; Tommy Pauly ; IETF IPPM= WG (ippm@ietf.org) Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Rakesh and Greg, I may not very clear about the context. Please allow me to jump in. It seems both of you make some valid point. Please see in line with . Cheers, Tianran From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rakesh Gandhi (r= gandhi) Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 7:41 AM To: Greg Mirsky > Cc: spring >; IPPM Chairs >; spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy Pauly >; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: Re: [spring] [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srp= m and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Greg, Thank you for your review and discussions on the drafts. This will help imp= rove the work on this important work. Please see replies inline with .. From: Greg Mirsky > Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 5:27 PM To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > Cc: Tommy Pauly >, IPPM Chairs >, spring-chairs@ietf.org >, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.o= rg) >, spring > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Rakesh, WG Chairs, and All, I've read the responses to my detailed comments. I don't think that only ad= ding references will solve the problems with the documents. If authors are = interested in addressing my comments, we can start working on solving them = one by one. As mentioned in previous replies, we can add references for the well-k= nown terms =93Links=94, =93Congruent Paths=94, =93SR Path=94. If you prefer= , we can define them here. For Zero checksum field, we can add a reference = for the RFC 6936 in Security section and also add some text for it. Will be= happy to work with you to address these. But I am very much concerned with the technical value of these drafts. And = here's why I feel that the proposed documents don't provide a sound technic= al solution to the task of direct loss measurement. Please find my reasonin= g explaining my opinion of the *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm: * What is being proposed in these drafts? Drafts *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm propose a new protocol to support dire= ct packet loss measurements. Note, that RFC 6374 includes a method for dire= ct loss measurement in MPLS networks that is applicable to the SR-MPLS envi= ronment. Also, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv defines an extension to RFC= 8762 STAMP, the Direct Measurement TLV, that supports the direct packet lo= ss measurement. STAMP and all its extensions are applicable in IPv6 network= s and, thus, can be used in the SRv6 domain. As mentioned in previous replies, both RFC 6374 (in Section 4.2) and I= TU Y.1731 (in Section 8.1) define stand-alone messages for collecting TX an= d RX counters for direct-mode loss measurement. TWAMP/STAMP messages define= d in the drafts are equivalent of them that take advantage of the widely de= ployed TWAMP protocol and as well this same protocol can be deployed in IPv= 4/IPv6/MPLS/SRv6/EVPN/etc. networks. I think RFC6374 for MPLS and Y.1731 make some noise here. The point i= s if we need a new direct packet loss measurement for STAMP, when STAMP alr= eady defined a Direct Measurement TLV (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra= ft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv). If current Direct Measurement TLV cannot fu= lfill some use case requirement, then how about proposing a new TLV. [Mach] Given that TWAMP does not support TLV, I assume that the discussions= are mainly about draft*-stamp-srpm. [Mach] In the case of direct packet loss measurement, draft-gandhi-ippm-sta= mp-srpm assumes that marking-based solution (which can address the packet o= ut-ordering issue) is used, hence the block number is introduced. The block= number is used to correlate the counters from the sender and reflector. Th= e current direct loss measurement TLV may just apply to the scenario withou= t packet out-ordering. To further add to this, as TWAMP Light does not have a TLV, we need = to define a stand-alone message for direct-mode LM. STAMP is just the same = message but fixed length, so this way both can interoperate and also we can= leverage the message for both of these protocols. For STAMP direct-mode LM TLV approach, some technical details are in the dr= aft as well: The STAMP message with a TLV for "direct measurement" can be used for combined Delay + Loss measurement [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv]. However, in order to use only for loss measurement purpose, it requires the node to support the delay measurement messages and support timestamp for these messages (which may also require clock synchronization for one-way delay). Furthermore, for hardware-based cou= nter collection for direct-mode loss measurement, the optional TLV based processing adds unnecessary overhead (as counters are not at well-known locations). [Mach] In addition, whether to keep it as current design or to define a new= TLV for direct loss measurement can be debatable. How the proposed method of direct packet loss is related to TWAMP light and= STAMP? There's no apparent technical relationship between *-twamp-srpm and TWAMP L= ight, or *-stamp-srpm drafts and STAMP. Drafts do not extend or re-use the = basic mechanisms defined for TWAMP-Test and/or STAMP in their respective s= pecifications. Rather than that, drafts introduce a new query-response mode= and new formats of test packets that are decisively different from the for= mats defined in respective specifications. As a result, the new protocols a= re required to use different from used by TWAMP Light tr STAMP test session= UDP port numbers on the responder. And that is another clear indication th= at the proposed mechanism represents a new protocol, neither extends TWAMP = Light and/or STAMP nor updates their specifications. As mentioned in previous replies, other than timestamp vs. counter and= it=92s format, the messages and processing of them are the same for delay = and direct-mode loss measurement. * Is there any advantage in introducing a dedicated packet format for t= he direct packet loss in STAMP comparing to using the Direct Measurement TL= V extension? Though it appears the using a dedicated packet format instead of TLV is mor= e efficient, but the dedicated for the direct loss measurement format is li= kely to precede one or even two TLVs, Node Address TLV and Path TLV, define= d in draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. As a result, processing of the new packe= t with TLVs is unlikely to be more efficient and reduce the processing dela= y, than if using the Direct Measurement TLV as defined in draft-ietf-ippm-s= tamp-option-tlv. As mentioned in previous replies, this is explained in Section 1 of th= e draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm. For link loss measurement (direct-mode), there is = no TLV required for example. For direct-mode loss measurement in SR network= s, it would typically be forward direction packet loss measurement (and not= bidirectional). * What are the potential benefits of specifying the return path in the = new test packet's Sender Control Code? Using the Sender Control Code may require the use of the additional TLV tha= t carries the return path information, Path TLV. If the ability to control = the return path is required that can be achieved by augmenting the STAMP YA= NG data model (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang) rather than including the Path T= LV in each test packet. Hence, there seem no technical requirements to intr= oduce the Sender Control Code field in the Base STAMP format defined in RFC= 8762. Per session basis between different sender nodes and this reflector no= de, some senders will request the replies in-band (e.g. for two-way mode). = Sessions are provisioned on the Sender nodes and reflector simply reflects = based on the received test-packet (e.g. for a bidirectional SR path). This = is also similar to as described Section 3.1 in RFC 6374, top of page 22. Th= ere is no need to create a such state for each session on the reflector nod= e and create a scale limitation. Recall that we are trying to avoid the sca= le limitation by eliminating the Control protocol signaling. I find some value to include the path TLV in wire. As Rakesh mentione= d, this can reduce the reflector configuration. But I am not convinced to i= ntroduce the sender control code field. It seems to me, the presence of pat= h TLV indicates the bidirectional congruent path. Vise versa. [Mach] Regarding how to specify the return path, the draft defines two ways= to achieve that, one is to use control code to direct whether the reflecte= d Test should be along the reverse path of a bidirectional path, this appli= es to both TWAMP (no TLV mechanisms) and STAMP. At the same time, in the ca= se of STAMP, it also defines the return path TLV to explicitly specify the = return path, which bring more options to specify the return path. Therefore= , I see benefit of the two ways. To further add to this, the IPPM draft simply defines protocol extens= ions. The use-cases are there in the corresponding spring drafts. For examp= le, for links, no return Path TLV is used, etc. In other words, the use-cas= es are different for the two, and there is no TLV in TWAMP anyways. Thanks, Rakesh Best regards, Mach What is the relationship between the *-srpm drafts and BFD? Some text in the *-srpm drafts suggest that the proposed method can be used= to monitor for the loss of a path continuity. That may be viewed as an alt= ernative to the BFD protocol method for the detection of a network failure.= If the discussion of Loopback mode and monitoring of liveness remain in th= e drafts, it seems logical that the BFD WG and BFD WG's Chairs be made awar= e of the proposals. I didn't take the liberty of adding BFD WG or its Chair= s. I believe that decision to be made by the Chairs of IPPM And SPRING WGs. As mentioned in previous replies, STAMP/TWAMP test messages are also u= sed today for synthetic packet loss measurement which can be also used to d= etect/monitor connection loss (performance metric). The draft simply highli= ghts this obvious metric. This is also very similar to what is described in= ITU Y.1731, Section 7.1. Thanks, Rakesh Regards, On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:10 PM Greg Mirsky > wrote: Hi Rakesh, thank you for your prompt response, much appreciated. I'll carefully read y= our responses. Looking forward to the continued discussion. Regards, Greg On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:07 PM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > wrote: Hi Greg, Thank you for your review comments. As mentioned in the IPPM session today,= the email response was sent as attachments, see archive blow: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/J503n-B2yOxF0urcHtGQKnqCRDE/ I am attaching them in word documents for the convenience. We can address y= our comments below in the next revision of the document. Thanks, Rakesh From: Greg Mirsky > Date: Friday, November 13, 2020 at 10:09 AM To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > Cc: Tommy Pauly >, IPPM Chairs >, spring-chairs@ietf.org >, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Rakesh, thank you for your response to my review. Please find my follow-up notes in= -lined below under the GIM>> tag. I hope you've found more detailed comments in the attachments (re-attached = for your convenience). I'm looking forward to reading your responses to the= detailed comments of all four drafts. Regards, Greg On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:11 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > wrote: Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and p= roviding the comments. Attached please find the email replies to your revi= ew sent earlier. The replies are copied inline below for convenience, tagg= ed with . From: ippm > Date: Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM To: Tommy Pauly > Cc: IPPM Chairs >, spring= -chairs@ietf.org >, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG community, I've reviewed these drafts and have some comments to share. Below, please f= ind my thoughts on whether these drafts can be adopted. More specific comme= nts on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft and its a= ccompanying draft targetted to the SPRING WG) are in the attached documents= . Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluated by answers= to these three questions: =95 Is the document(s) reasonably well-written I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology from RFCs 4656= /5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender = and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", ar= e used in the documents without proper definitions. Other than that both dr= afts are readable and reasonably well-written. We can change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Refl= ector if it helps. GIM>> I believe that the consistency in terminology between the core RFC an= d what is intended as its extension is not only helpful to a reader but, to= the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications. There are many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340= , 8330, etc.) and term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without definin= g them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having said tha= t, we can add a reference for them if it helps. GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. I think I need to clarify my questi= ons. While a reference to any of RFCs you've mentioned, I don't think that = will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitalized while= referenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can these be= used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object? Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using the term "congruent path" = in these drafts (using ASCII-art): C---------D / \ A----B E-----F \ / G------------H Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the network as A-B-C-D-E-F= . From the definition of "congruent" as "two figures or objects are congrue= nt if they have the same shape and size, or if one has the same shape and s= ize as the mirror image of the other", path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to the= SR tunnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to monitor a flow over t= he SR tunnel is out-of-band and will not produce any meaningful measurement= . Of course, for the case of the extensions in drafts, direct loss measurem= ent can be performed, as information collected from node F. So, this exampl= e, in my opinion, illustrates two of my concerns: * using a congruent path for an active OAM protocol may produce informa= tion that does not reflect the condition experienced by the monitored flow.= It seems that the terminology should reflect the fundamental requirement f= or using active OAM to maintain the test packets in-band with the monitored= flow. * there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band active O= AM protocol for direct packet loss measurement. As demonstrated in this exa= mple, direct packet loss can be performed using an out-of-band mechanism, e= .g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG data model. =95 Does the document solve a real problem? No, it appears that both TWAMP and STAMP drafts define a new performance = measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/TWAMP and STAMP fun= ctionality in the respective drafts, and adding the ability to collect coun= ters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find sufficient technical argument= s for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing O= AM mechanisms like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884. There is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as synth= etic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWA= MP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packet= loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a good opti= on here. GIM>> I agree with the requirements you've listed (though the SPRING WG OAM= requirements document has been abandoned and expired 3+ years ago). I believe th= at there's no sufficient technical reason to use OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for excl= usive direct packet loss measurement. =95 Is the proposed solution technically viable? There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced by= the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the propose= d solutions. About your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security s= ection in RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Secti= on as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in th= e domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other than this, I did n= ot find any other security related issue in your review. GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference sufficiently explains why the use= of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, does not create a = security risk for the protocol. Thanks, Rakesh Regards, Greg On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly > wrote: Hello IPPM, For the past few meetings, we=92ve had updates on the work in the SPRING WG= that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making exte= nsions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it= would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in = the IPPM WG. As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption for draft-gandhi= -ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. The documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 The related SPRING documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether or not y= ou believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Pl= ease provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mo= nday, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --_000_DM6PR11MB31159A70B271EDD1D7F9201FBFE00DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Thank you Mach and Tia= nran for your review comments.

    Please see inline repl= y with <RG2>=85

     

    From: Mach Chen <mach.= chen@huawei.com>
    Date: Thursday, November 19, 2020 at 2:41 AM
    To: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>, Rakesh Gandhi (rgan= dhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> Cc: spring <spring@ietf.org>, IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf= .org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, Tommy Paul= y <tpauly@apple.com>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org&= gt;
    Subject: RE: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi Tianran, Rakesh and Greg,

     

    Please see some responses inline with [Mach]=85=

     

    From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tianran Zhou
    Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 1:33 PM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org= >; Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
    Cc: spring <spring@ietf.org>; IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf= .org>; spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmar= c.ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

     

    Hi Rake= sh and Greg,

     <= /span>

    I may n= ot very clear about the context. Please allow me to jump in.

    It seem= s both of you make some valid point.

    Please = see in line with <ZTR>.

     <= /span>

    Cheers,=

    Tianran=

     <= /span>

    From: spring [mailto:sprin= g-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi)
    Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 7:41 AM
    To: Greg Mirsky <gregimi= rsky@gmail.com>
    Cc: spring <spring@ietf.org>; IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@= ietf.org>; spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy= Pauly <tpauly=3D= 40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.o= rg>
    Subject: Re: [spring] [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-tw= amp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

     

    Hi Greg,

     

    Thank you for your rev= iew and discussions on the drafts. This will help improve the work on this = important work.

    Please see replies inl= ine with <RG>..

     

     

    From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
    Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 5:27 PM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com>
    Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IET= F IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi Rakesh, WG Chairs, and All,

    I've read the responses to my detailed comments. I d= on't think that only adding references will solve the problems with the doc= uments. If authors are interested in addressing my comments, we can start w= orking on solving them one by one.

     

    <RG> As mentione= d in previous replies, we can add references for the well-known terms =93Li= nks=94, =93Congruent Paths=94, =93SR Path=94. If you prefer, we can define = them here. For Zero checksum field, we can add a reference for the RFC 6936 in Security section and also add some text for it. Will b= e happy to work with you to address these.

     

    But I am very much concerned with the technical valu= e of these drafts. And here's why I feel that the proposed documents don't = provide a sound technical solution to the task of direct loss measurement.&= nbsp;Please find my reasoning explaining my opinion of the *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm:

    • What is being proposed in these drafts?

    Drafts *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm propose a new p= rotocol to support direct packet loss measurements. Note, that RFC 6374 inc= ludes a method for direct loss measurement in MPLS networks that is applica= ble to the SR-MPLS environment. Also, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv defines an extension to RFC 8762 STAMP, t= he Direct Measurement TLV, that supports the direct packet loss measurement= . STAMP and all its extensions are applicable in IPv6 networks and, thus, c= an be used in the SRv6 domain.

     

    <RG> As mentione= d in previous replies, both RFC 6374 (in Section 4.2) and ITU Y.1731 (in Se= ction 8.1) define stand-alone messages for collecting TX and RX counters fo= r direct-mode loss measurement. TWAMP/STAMP messages defined in the drafts are equivalent of them that take advantage = of the widely deployed TWAMP protocol and as well this same protocol can be= deployed in IPv4/IPv6/MPLS/SRv6/EVPN/etc. networks.

     

    <ZTR> I think RFC6374 for MPLS and Y.1731 make= some noise here. The point is if we need a new direct packet loss measurem= ent for STAMP, when STAMP already defined a Direct Measurement TLV (http= s://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv). If current Direct Measurement TLV cannot fulfill some use case requirement= , then how about proposing a new TLV.

     = ;

    [Mach= ] Given that TWAMP does not support TLV, I assume that the discussions are = mainly about draft*-stamp-srpm.

     = ;

    [Mach= ] In the case of direct packet loss measurement, draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-sr= pm assumes that marking-based solution (which can address the packet out-or= dering issue) is used, hence the block number is introduced. The block number is used to correlate the counters f= rom the sender and reflector. The current direct loss measurement TLV may j= ust apply to the scenario without packet out-ordering.

     = ;

    <RG2> To further= add to this,  as TWAMP Light does not have a TLV, we need to define a stand-alone message f= or direct-mode LM. STAMP is just the same message but fixed length, so this= way both can interoperate and also we can leverage the message for both of= these protocols.

     

    For STAMP direct-mode LM TLV approach, some t= echnical details are in the draft as well:

     

       The STAMP message with a TLV for "direct measurem= ent" can be used for

       combined Delay + Loss measurement [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-op= tion-tlv].

       However, in order to use only for loss measurement pur= pose, it

       requires the node to support the delay measurement mes= sages and

       support timestamp for these messages (which may also r= equire clock

       synchronization for one-way delay).  Furthermore,= for hardware-based counter collection=

       for direct-mode loss measurement, the optional TLV bas= ed processing

       adds unnecessary overhead (as counters are not at well= -known

       locations).<= /o:p>

     

     

     

    [Mach= ] In addition, whether to keep it as current design or to define a new TLV = for direct loss measurement can be debatable.  

     

     

     = ;

    How the proposed method of direct packet loss is rel= ated to TWAMP light and STAMP?

    There's no apparent technical relationship between *= -twamp-srpm and TWAMP Light, or *-stamp-srpm drafts and STAMP. Drafts do no= t extend or re-use the basic mechanisms defined for  TWAMP-Test and/or= STAMP in their respective specifications. Rather than that, drafts introduce a new query-response mode and new forma= ts of test packets that are decisively different from the formats defined i= n respective specifications. As a result, the new protocols are required to= use different from used by TWAMP Light tr STAMP test session UDP port numbers on the responder. And that is= another clear indication that the proposed mechanism represents a new prot= ocol, neither extends TWAMP Light and/or STAMP nor updates their specificat= ions.

     

    <RG> As mentione= d in previous replies, other than timestamp vs. counter and it=92s format, = the messages and processing of them are the same for delay and direct-mode = loss measurement.

    • Is there any advantage in introducing a dedicated packet format for the dir= ect packet loss in STAMP comparing to using the Direct Measurement TLV exte= nsion?

    Though it appears the using a dedicated packet forma= t instead of TLV is more efficient, but the dedicated for the direct loss m= easurement format is likely to precede one or even two TLVs, Node Address T= LV and Path TLV, defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. As a result, processing of the new packet with TLVs is unlikely to be more= efficient and reduce the processing delay, than if using the Direct Measur= ement TLV as defined in draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv.

     

    <RG> As mentione= d in previous replies, this is explained in Section 1 of the draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm. = For link loss measurement (direct-mode), there is no TLV required for examp= le. For direct-mode loss measurement in SR networks, it would typically be forward direction packet loss= measurement (and not bidirectional).

     

     

    • Using the Sender Control Code may require the use of= the additional TLV that carries the return path information, Path TLV. If = the ability to control the return path is required that can be achieved by = augmenting the STAMP YANG data model (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang) rather than including the Path TLV in each te= st packet. Hence, there seem no technical requirements to introduce the Sen= der Control Code field in the Base STAMP format defined in RFC 8762.

       

      <RG> Per session= basis between different sender nodes and this reflector node, some senders= will request the replies in-band (e.g. for two-way mode). Sessions are pro= visioned on the Sender nodes and reflector simply reflects based on the received test-packet (e.g. for a bidirectiona= l SR path). This is also similar to as described Section 3.1 in RFC 6374, t= op of page 22. There is no need to create a such state for each session on = the reflector node and create a scale limitation. Recall that we are trying to avoid the scale limitation = by eliminating the Control protocol signaling.

       

      <ZTR> I find some value to include the path TL= V in wire. As Rakesh mentioned, this can reduce the reflector configuration= . But I am not convinced to introduce the sender control code field. It see= ms to me, the presence of path TLV indicates the bidirectional congruent path. Vise versa.

       = ;

      [Mach= ] Regarding how to specify the return path, the draft defines two ways to a= chieve that, one is to use control code to direct whether the reflected Tes= t should be along the reverse path of a bidirectional path, this applies to both TWAMP (no TLV mechanisms) and S= TAMP. At the same time, in the case of STAMP, it also defines the return pa= th TLV to explicitly specify the return path, which bring more options to s= pecify the return path. Therefore, I see benefit of the two ways.

       

      <RG2> To further= add to this, the IPPM draft simply defines protocol extensions. The use-ca= ses are there in the corresponding spring drafts. For example, for links, no return Path TLV is used, etc. In other = words, the use-cases are different for the two, and there is no TLV in TWAM= P anyways.

       

      Thanks,

      Rakesh

       

       = ;

       = ;

      Best = regards,

      Mach<= /span>

       = ;

      What is the relationship between the *-srpm drafts a= nd BFD?

      Some text in the *-srpm drafts suggest that the prop= osed method can be used to monitor for the loss of a path continuity. = That may be viewed as an alternative to the BFD protocol method for the det= ection of a network failure. If the discussion of Loopback mode and monitoring of liveness remain in the drafts, it seems= logical that the BFD WG and BFD WG's Chairs be made aware of the proposals= . I didn't take the liberty of adding BFD WG or its Chairs. I believe that = decision to be made by the Chairs of IPPM And SPRING WGs.

       

      <RG> As mentione= d in previous replies, STAMP/TWAMP test messages are also used today for synthetic packet loss measurement which can be also used to detect/m= onitor connection loss (performance metric). The draft simply highlights th= is obvious metric. This is also very similar to what is described in ITU Y.= 1731, Section 7.1.

       

      Thanks,

      Rakesh

       

      Regards,

       

       

      On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:10 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.c= om> wrote:

      Hi Rakesh,

      thank you for your prompt response, much apprec= iated. I'll carefully read your responses. Looking forward to the continued= discussion.

       

      Regards,

      Greg

       

      On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:07 PM Rakesh Gandhi (rgan= dhi) <rgandhi@cis= co.com> wrote:

      Hi Greg,

       

      Thank you for your review comments. As mentioned in the IPPM sessi= on today, the email response was sent as attachments, see archive blow:

      https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i= ppm/J503n-B2yOxF0urcHtGQKnqCRDE/

       

      I am attaching them in word documents for the convenience. We can = address your comments below in the next revision of the document.

       

      Thanks,

      Rakesh

       

       

      From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.c= om>
      Date: Friday, November 13, 2020 at 10:09 AM
      To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com>
      Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IPPM Chairs &l= t;ippm-chairs@iet= f.org>, spring-chairs@i= etf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
      Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

      Hi Rakesh,

      thank you for your response to my review. Please find my follow-up= notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.

      I hope you've found more detailed comments in the attachments (re-= attached for your convenience). I'm looking forward to reading your respons= es to the detailed comments of all four drafts.

       

      Regards,

      Greg

       

      On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:11 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com> = wrote:

      Thank you Greg for taking time for t= horoughly reviewing the documents and providing the comments.  Attache= d please find the email replies to your review sent earlier.  The replies are copied inline below for convenience, t= agged with <RG00>.

       

       

      From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org&= gt;
      Date: Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM
      To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
      Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@i= etf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
      Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

      Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG community,

      I've reviewed these drafts and have some comments to share. Below,= please find my thoughts on whether these drafts can be adopted. More speci= fic comments on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft and its accompanying draft tar= getted to the SPRING WG) are in the attached documents.

       

      Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluat= ed by answers to these three questions:

      =B7  Is the document(s) reasonably well-written

      I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology f= rom RFCs 4656/5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms= , e.g., Links, "congruent paths", are used in the documents witho= ut proper definitions. Other than that both drafts are readable and reasona= bly well-written.

       

      <RG00> We can change Sender to= Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Reflector if it helps. 

      GIM>> I believe that the consistency in terminology between = the core RFC and what is intended as its extension is not only helpful to a= reader but, to the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications.

      <RG00> There are many existing= RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340, 8330, etc.) and term Congrue= nt Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without defining them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having said that= , we can add a reference for them if it helps.

      GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. I think I need to cl= arify my questions. While a reference to any of RFCs you've mentioned, I do= n't think that will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitalized while referenced RFCs = used the lower case form for the term "link". Can these be used i= nterchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object?

      Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using the term "co= ngruent path" in these drafts (using ASCII-art):

                        &nb= sp;    C---------D

                        &nb= sp;  /                 \<= o:p>

                  A----B    &nbs= p;              E-----F

                        &nb= sp;  \                  /=

                        &nb= sp;  G------------H

      Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the network as A-= B-C-D-E-F. From the definition of "congruent" as "two figure= s or objects are congruent if they have the same shape and size, or if one has the same shape and size as the mirror image of the= other", path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to the SR tunnel. But a packet = of an active OAM intended to monitor a flow over the SR tunnel is out-of-ba= nd and will not produce any meaningful measurement. Of course, for the case of the extensions in drafts, direct l= oss measurement can be performed, as information collected from node F. So,= this example, in my opinion, illustrates two of my concerns:

      • using a congruent path for an active OAM protocol may produce information t= hat does not reflect the condition experienced by the monitored flow. It se= ems that the terminology should reflect the fundamental requirement for usi= ng active OAM to maintain the test packets in-band with the monitored flow.
      • there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band active OAM pro= tocol for direct packet loss measurement. As demonstrated in this example, = direct packet loss can be performed using an out-of-band mechanism, e.g., S= NMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG data model.

       

      =B7  Does the document solve a real problem?

      No, it appears that  both TWAMP and STAMP drafts  d= efine a new performance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/= TWAMP and STAMP functionality in the respective drafts, and adding the abil= ity to collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find = sufficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing OAM mechanisms= like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884.

       

      <RG00> There is a requirement = to measure performance delay as well as synthetic and direct-mode packet lo= ss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packet l= oss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a good option= here.

      GIM>> I agree with the requirements you've listed (thou= gh the SPRING WG OAM requirements document has been abandoned and expired 3+ y= ears ago). I believe that there's no sufficient technical reason to us= e OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for exclusive direct packet loss measurement. 

       

      =B7  Is the proposed solution technically viable?

      There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk = introduced by the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the proposed solutions.

       

      <RG00> About your comment on z= ero checksum, this is described in Security section in RFC 6936. We will ad= d reference to this RFC in our Security Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in the = domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other than this, I did not= find any other security related issue in your review.

      GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference sufficiently expla= ins why the use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, doe= s not create a security risk for the protocol.

       

      Thanks,

      Rakesh

       

       

      Regards,

      Greg

       

       

       

       

      On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.= ietf.org> wrote:

      Hello IPPM,

       

      For the past few meetings, we=92ve had updates on the work in the = SPRING WG that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up ma= king extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it would be best to split the d= ocuments and track the IPPM extension work in the IPPM WG.

       

      As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption for&nbs= p;draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm.=

       

      Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether= or not you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this = email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Monday, November 16.<= o:p>

       

      Best,

      Tommy & Ian

      _______________________________________________
      ippm mailing list
      ippm@ietf.org
      ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

    --_000_DM6PR11MB31159A70B271EDD1D7F9201FBFE00DM6PR11MB3115namp_-- From nobody Thu Nov 19 07:22:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FA4A3A0AD3 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 07:22:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1HlMSchUxlWI for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 07:22:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from cnet.fi.uba.ar (cnet.fi.uba.ar [157.92.58.2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D0BB3A0AC6 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 07:22:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cnet.fi.uba.ar (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2B6F140077; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 12:22:16 -0300 (ART) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at cnet.fi.uba.ar Received: from cnet.fi.uba.ar ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (cnet.fi.uba.ar [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8beRE5vReWoD; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 12:22:11 -0300 (ART) Received: from [192.168.0.13] (unknown [181.46.139.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by cnet.fi.uba.ar (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E1DD9140068; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 12:22:10 -0300 (ART) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 12:21:57 -0300 Cc: ippm@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <66403B11-3F9F-4401-8054-ED17DB1D3B36@cnet.fi.uba.ar> References: <159376413634.18432.970239984476460419@ietfa.amsl.com> <30B64F4F-6947-4ACB-8717-BF32143241EE@cnet.fi.uba.ar> <626A4A7E-0941-46F8-947E-4CC24DFC86CE@cnet.fi.uba.ar> <42412AD5-67F0-49CE-8AA0-156A49D75C48@cnet.fi.uba.ar> To: Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 15:22:24 -0000 Hi R=C3=BCdiger, O.K., but to determine if something is noise or not you need to control = it along the time, and even then it could be tricky. I understand that = backbone network is an special case, which it dynamics could be more = =E2=80=9Cstable=E2=80=9D in a certain sense. Best and thanks for this interesting discussion, Ignacio _______________________________________________________________ Dr. Ing. Jos=C3=A9 Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin CONICET and Facultad de Ingenier=C3=ADa, Universidad de Buenos Aires Av. Paseo Col=C3=B3n 850 - C1063ACV - Buenos Aires - Argentina +54 (11) 5285 0716 / 5285 0705 e-mail: ihameli@cnet.fi.uba.ar web: http://cnet.fi.uba.ar/ignacio.alvarez-hamelin/ _______________________________________________________________ > On 19 Nov 2020, at 11:19, Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de wrote: >=20 > Hi Ignacio, >=20 > by congestion I consider indeed buffer queues to fill (and random = drops may occur). This should result in delay increase which is = significant as compared to other efforts. The latter are still present, = but on a smaller timescale. As an example, I'd guess a delay or an RTT = may vary by +/- 200 us in backbone network (interfaces of bandwidth = 1/10/100 GE). Let's call that "noise". Then the change point detection = should recognize delay increases by say 1 ms or more. Just an example, = numbers may be settable to reflect conditions of different environments. = If "noise" and congestion result in delay changes of similar duration, = location of changes may be more difficult or not work at all.=20 >=20 > Let me come up with a changepoint detection algorithm and then see = where to go next.=20 >=20 > There are other options, like capturing (simple) statistics describing = the noise and a (tolerant) check, whether any new measurement is likely = drawn from that distribution. I think, that should depend on operator = preferences and certainly is open for research.=20 >=20 > Regards, >=20 > R=C3=BCdiger >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht----- > Von: J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin =20 > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. November 2020 14:57 > An: Geib, R=C3=BCdiger > Cc: ippm@ietf.org > Betreff: Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for = draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03.txt >=20 > Hi R=C3=BCdiger,=20 >=20 > Just another comment on the congestion: You cannot rely on the RTT = change because its statistical distribution is complex. In some cases, = RTT on a link can be assumed Gaussian, but the general case is the = alpha-stable, a generalization of the Gaussian one. The underlying = distribution is important because you will face heavy tail distributions = where average and standard deviation have no meaning. Notice that = measurements are correlated with the time-window to compute them. = Another point that needs to take care of is that it is not clear the = definition of congestion, as always happens. For some people means one = thing, like "the link utilization is less than 95% of its capacity,"; = which leads to having some systematic errors because it changes = according to the selected time-window. What do you intent to = characterize as "congestion"? In my opinion, one solution is to analyze = if delays are highly increased; for instance, when some link is = overload, its buffer is plenty (introducing some extra delay), and a lot = of packets are discarded. >=20 > If you consider it useful, I can collaborate on this point.=20 >=20 > Best, >=20 > J. Ignacio=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________________________ >=20 > Dr. Ing. Jos=C3=A9 Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin > CONICET and Facultad de Ingenier=C3=ADa, Universidad de Buenos Aires = Av. Paseo Col=C3=B3n 850 - C1063ACV - Buenos Aires - Argentina > +54 (11) 5285 0716 / 5285 0705 > e-mail: ihameli@cnet.fi.uba.ar > web: http://cnet.fi.uba.ar/ignacio.alvarez-hamelin/ > _______________________________________________________________ >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 19 Nov 2020, at 10:14, = wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Ignacio, >>=20 >> Thanks for supporting adoption.=20 >>=20 >> The doc you refer to mentions " Principal component analysis" to = figure out which overlaid measurements dominate an observed behavior = (sets of origin to destination flow samples and observed link load). As = the topology of the network to be monitored is assumed to be known as = prerequisite of the suggested metric, the "principal component" to be = detected is, e.g., a congested interface (a lost connectivity is a = different one). As topology and measurement paths are set-up in = pre-designed and controlled way, it is known at set up time, which = changes in the measurements are caused by which event (with the = expectation of a singular change to be detected only).=20 >>=20 >> Al asked me to provide text on the change point detection mechanism. = Consecutive delay measurements on a single measurement path are supposed = to be constant without congestion. So the difference between delays = d1(t1)-d1(t0) =3D=3D 0. It is non zero in case of congestion at time t1. = That will be the core point (but that in itself isn't a change point = detection). I'm thinking about cumulative sums with some noise tolerance = here and will put that down in the next version. >>=20 >> Regards, >>=20 >> R=C3=BCdiger >>=20 >>=20 >> -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht----- >> Von: J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin >> Gesendet: Montag, 16. November 2020 16:14 >> An: Geib, R=C3=BCdiger >> Cc: ippm-chairs@ietf.org; ippm@ietf.org >> Betreff: Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for=20 >> draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03.txt >>=20 >> Dear R=C3=BCdiger, >>=20 >> I agree that the paper intends to do another thing. My point is, if = you know the topology, you have to choose the minimum number of paths to = make the measurements. Part of the paper that I suggested and thought = could be useful is to select the paths regarding the graph adjacency = matrix (and no the measurements itself). There are multiple methods; I = just signaling this one because it is one of the first work to do so, = for my knowledge. I hope that could be useful for you.=20 >>=20 >> By the way, I support this draft = draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring. >>=20 >>=20 >> Best, >>=20 >> J. Ignacio >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________________________ >>=20 >> Dr. Ing. Jos=C3=A9 Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin >> CONICET and Facultad de Ingenier=C3=ADa, Universidad de Buenos Aires = Av.=20 >> Paseo Col=C3=B3n 850 - C1063ACV - Buenos Aires - Argentina >> +54 (11) 5285 0716 / 5285 0705 >> e-mail: ihameli@cnet.fi.uba.ar >> web: http://cnet.fi.uba.ar/ignacio.alvarez-hamelin/ >> _______________________________________________________________ >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 16 Nov 2020, at 05:46, = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Dear Ignacio, >>>=20 >>> Thanks. I agree that one should minimize the number of measurements = required to monitor a desired set of paths. That was one of my = motivations when I designed the method specified by the draft. >>>=20 >>> There are however some differences between the document you've = referenced below and my approach: >>> - the authors of "Structural analysis of network traffic flows" had = limited means of detecting the network topology. They further were able = to set up SPF single origin to single destination measurements only. = Finally, the exact SPF path taken in a network was often part of what = was to be detected.=20 >>> - My / the drafts starting point is: exact knowledge of the topology = and the ability to concatenate and forward packets along sets of SPF = paths by Segment Routing. By that, my design aim was to measure, what a = ping can measure with no more packets than a ping and add location of = congestion while not requiring router interaction apart from forwarding. = That is a minimisation already (I didn't think I need to propose any new = draft if it required more packets or measurement paths than a ping). = Taking that point of view, who auf the WG is having a better idea to = further minimize the number of paths while being able to extract "ping" = data, add location of congestion and stay in forwarding is invited to = publish.=20 >>>=20 >>> Regards, >>>=20 >>> Ruediger >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht----- >>> Von: J Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin >>> Gesendet: Montag, 16. November 2020 08:00 >>> An: Geib, R=C3=BCdiger >>> Cc: ippm-chairs@ietf.org; ippm@ietf.org >>> Betreff: Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for=20 >>> draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03.txt >>>=20 >>> Dear Ruediger, >>>=20 >>> It is an excellent proposition that I saw in the papers some time = ago. Network tomography is somehow complicated because it would like, if = I understand correctly, to measure different paths and characteristics = with a minimum of paths. Could you consider to include some technique to = compute these paths? I know that isn't very easy, but it could be a = precious improvement. I know that is dependent on the topology, but = there are some excellent techniques to reduce the fraction of paths to = measure. I include a paper doing this through the reduction of the = number of paths (there are others): >>>=20 >>> Lakhina A, Papagiannaki K, Crovella M, Diot C, Kolaczyk ED, Taft N. = Structural analysis of network traffic flows. In Proceedings of the = Joint International Conference on Measurement and Modeling of Computer = Systems 2004 Jun 1 (pp. 61-72). >>>=20 >>> Perhaps you can cite this work as a possible method to compute that = and include some methodology about the selection on the end-points, = which leads to define the size of the problem and improve your = proposition. Why is the size important? Because you would like to use = the minimum number of testing paths to minimize the traffic and process = them quickly. Besides, this technique could be used in many cases, not = just in a particular topology. Eventually, I can help with this = particular point.=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Best regards, >>>=20 >>> J. Ignacio >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________________________ >>>=20 >>> Dr. Ing. Jos=C3=A9 Ignacio Alvarez-Hamelin CONICET and Facultad de=20= >>> Ingenier=C3=ADa, Universidad de Buenos Aires Av. >>> Paseo Col=C3=B3n 850 - C1063ACV - Buenos Aires - Argentina >>> +54 (11) 5285 0716 / 5285 0705 >>> e-mail: ihameli@cnet.fi.uba.ar >>> web: http://cnet.fi.uba.ar/ignacio.alvarez-hamelin/ >>> _______________________________________________________________ >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On 3 Jul 2020, at 05:41, Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Dear chairs, >>>>=20 >>>> draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring has been presented during = the IPPM IETF 107.=20 >>>> The new version addresses the request to add information on = periodicity of the measurements.=20 >>>> I've added text in section 3.8 "Reporting the metric". Minor = changes=20 >>>> in the introduction aim on better comprehensibility. >>>>=20 >>>> I don't participate at IETF 108 (online registration is charged = this time, bad for participants in vacation).=20 >>>> I'd nevertheless ask for adoption as a WG doc (but that may also be=20= >>>> postponed until IETF 109, when I will try to participate and = present=20 >>>> the draft). Comments on the draft and your guidance regarding steps = to adoption is welcome. >>>>=20 >>>> Regards, >>>>=20 >>>> Ruediger >>>>=20 >>>> -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht----- >>>> Von: internet-drafts@ietf.org >>>> Gesendet: Freitag, 3. Juli 2020 10:16 >>>> An: Geib, R=C3=BCdiger >>>> Betreff: New Version Notification for=20 >>>> draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03.txt >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> A new version of I-D, = draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03.txt >>>> has been successfully submitted by Ruediger Geib and posted to the = IETF repository. >>>>=20 >>>> Name: draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring >>>> Revision: 03 >>>> Title: A Connectivity Monitoring Metric for IPPM >>>> Document date: 2020-07-03 >>>> Group: Individual Submission >>>> Pages: 13 >>>> URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitori= ng-03.txt >>>> Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring/ >>>> Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-03 >>>> Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitor= ing >>>> Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitorin= g-03 >>>>=20 >>>> Abstract: >>>> Within a Segment Routing domain, segment routed measurement packets=20= >>>> can be sent along pre-determined paths. This enables new kinds of=20= >>>> measurements. Connectivity monitoring allows to supervise the = state=20 >>>> and performance of a connection or a (sub)path from one or a few=20 >>>> central monitoring systems. This document specifies a suitable=20 >>>> type-P connectivity monitoring metric. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org. >>>>=20 >>>> The IETF Secretariat >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ippm mailing list >>>> ippm@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm >>>=20 >>=20 >=20 From nobody Thu Nov 19 09:27:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D68C3A0E03; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 09:27:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ROddZKMdprKy; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 09:27:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x231.google.com (mail-lj1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F31143A0DD7; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 09:27:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x231.google.com with SMTP id r17so7104141ljg.5; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 09:27:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JZnP7348Kh8NS+4IT/McEZqG8bBA4TNZPHAytyrFuzU=; b=DZj3G9CfarAHGeEXjX0M9L2d1bBAUdkOHoqAyZLRWfHH6jvhFSBJFHiUPuJFlTQteX 2bbBVNU49jPhKpi37qpVmcGC590eCy32lB6yIBMVBX4hhD+vHEt8OLfP/x+cXYP07vI/ VbPTyt4yhaBP7imP+bEyWF8RbBjB0idzCV9/hIi2umstBv9K3ch5a7nFkUVufh3ztyX7 GJ1AR652T9koLhALzdxH2owFJjciLu9lq0YuBXC4b/0Cxc62Ee25IjEP7Qnxvq7KKZnx bPniQOC0Te73NphQr1mVips4Zfekvrg1fei9BoTBqBKNubby9Wituv1Sx7WZm956A0qr WdlQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JZnP7348Kh8NS+4IT/McEZqG8bBA4TNZPHAytyrFuzU=; b=EAAqnZxQudqAzt+trpN+cJfJqExElhtigO4eXHACqxK7bd1yhJK4AWskeg1z/oLEa5 ueO8NueKp2wkaxm5y90fI81huk0Uui2U8oPI591ekxHk2N4UsYAiIabCKYP6ofnPXIfI HIsmcIyDCtMgP5oOlk3dO5MSCzd0zkrrcRtY6/HFbPyYQp5r3ZFNod93iv4E6cE0sBrY F9ViyiG8Tj0W9k3QryNtf3wsQJ/7Inuke60wAO5MNOqWQlha767aKgQve+2uMh4z/tdX wfNjEEHpko6K5v2mp8p64IO5cPpKf1MRO0GDtqjNkj6d5LnsXlWpZc0ht4EYiMRUG4aO D9Kw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530k3Ifc2715wHh1t8/Aum/wPpsHCFgN/2dM4XCO9QKvCMSJ6Dos pam39qd2lFTr/r47QcqWeJS8Nce64+D0OXTkOZHyVyRToVPOrQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw/cxrDuFLThIgG67N4+osxuGgONfL2rHeIEuB7PGG0Lx7hSPNtznhQBp30ezqRsPjcGp5iPJwhbdV2QiJSkpg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:207:: with SMTP id y7mr6665803ljn.428.1605806843994; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 09:27:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 09:27:11 -0800 Message-ID: To: Mach Chen Cc: Tianran Zhou , "Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi)" , spring , IPPM Chairs , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" , Tommy Pauly , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000083a84c05b4790a92" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 17:27:31 -0000 --00000000000083a84c05b4790a92 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mach, thank you for your email. I've added my understanding of what has been proposed in-line tagged GIM>>. Regards, Greg On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 11:41 PM Mach Chen wrote: > Hi Tianran, Rakesh and Greg, > > > > Please see some responses inline with [Mach]=E2=80=A6 > > > > *From:* ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Tianran Zhou > *Sent:* Thursday, November 19, 2020 1:33 PM > *To:* Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) ; Gre= g > Mirsky > *Cc:* spring ; IPPM Chairs ; > spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy Pauly = ; > IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > *Subject:* Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and > draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm > > > > Hi Rakesh and Greg, > > > > I may not very clear about the context. Please allow me to jump in. > > It seems both of you make some valid point. > > Please see in line with . > > > > Cheers, > > Tianran > > > > *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org ]= *On > Behalf Of *Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 18, 2020 7:41 AM > *To:* Greg Mirsky > *Cc:* spring ; IPPM Chairs ; > spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy Pauly = ; > IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > *Subject:* Re: [spring] [ippm] Call for adoption: > draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm > > > > Hi Greg, > > > > Thank you for your review and discussions on the drafts. This will help > improve the work on this important work. > > Please see replies inline with .. > > > > > > *From: *Greg Mirsky > *Date: *Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 5:27 PM > *To: *Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > *Cc: *Tommy Pauly , IPPM Chairs < > ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org , > IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) , spring > *Subject: *Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and > draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm > > Hi Rakesh, WG Chairs, and All, > > I've read the responses to my detailed comments. I don't think that only > adding references will solve the problems with the documents. If authors > are interested in addressing my comments, we can start working on > solving them one by one. > > > > As mentioned in previous replies, we can add references for the > well-known terms =E2=80=9CLinks=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9CCongruent Paths=E2=80= =9D, =E2=80=9CSR Path=E2=80=9D. If you prefer, we > can define them here. For Zero checksum field, we can add a reference for > the RFC 6936 in Security section and also add some text for it. Will be > happy to work with you to address these. > > > > But I am very much concerned with the technical value of these drafts. An= d > here's why I feel that the proposed documents don't provide a sound > technical solution to the task of direct loss measurement. Please find my > reasoning explaining my opinion of the *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm: > > - What is being proposed in these drafts? > > Drafts *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm propose a new protocol to support > direct packet loss measurements. Note, that RFC 6374 includes a method fo= r > direct loss measurement in MPLS networks that is applicable to the SR-MPL= S > environment. Also, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv defines an extension = to > RFC 8762 STAMP, the Direct Measurement TLV, that supports the direct pack= et > loss measurement. STAMP and all its extensions are applicable in IPv6 > networks and, thus, can be used in the SRv6 domain. > > > > As mentioned in previous replies, both RFC 6374 (in Section 4.2) and > ITU Y.1731 (in Section 8.1) define stand-alone messages for collecting TX > and RX counters for direct-mode loss measurement. TWAMP/STAMP messages > defined in the drafts are equivalent of them that take advantage of the > widely deployed TWAMP protocol and as well this same protocol can be > deployed in IPv4/IPv6/MPLS/SRv6/EVPN/etc. networks. > > > > I think RFC6374 for MPLS and Y.1731 make some noise here. The point > is if we need a new direct packet loss measurement for STAMP, when STAMP > already defined a Direct Measurement TLV ( > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv). If > current Direct Measurement TLV cannot fulfill some use case requirement, > then how about proposing a new TLV. > > > > [Mach] Given that TWAMP does not support TLV, I assume that the > discussions are mainly about draft*-stamp-srpm. > GIM>> You've brought a very good question on how the return path, in case required by the Sender Control Code, introduced in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm, is specified? As you've pointed out, RFC 5357 does not use TLV extensions. Should I assume that the return path, if required, provisioned through the management plane? I think that that requires clarification. > > > [Mach] In the case of direct packet loss measurement, > draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm assumes that marking-based solution (which c= an > address the packet out-ordering issue) is used, hence the block number is > introduced. The block number is used to correlate the counters from the > sender and reflector. The current direct loss measurement TLV may just > apply to the scenario without packet out-ordering. > GIM>> I agree with your observation on the purpose of the Block Number field in both TWAMP-Light and STAMP documents. In my understanding, the new protocol may be also used to collect counters generated by methods other than Alternate Marking. In that case, I assume, the value of Block Number may not convey any information. > > > [Mach] In addition, whether to keep it as current design or to define a > new TLV for direct loss measurement can be debatable. > GIM>> I agree with you. And that what I am proposing - review the requirements, agree on requirements, and review the proposed solution based on these requirements. > > > How the proposed method of direct packet loss is related to TWAMP light > and STAMP? > > There's no apparent technical relationship between *-twamp-srpm and TWAMP > Light, or *-stamp-srpm drafts and STAMP. Drafts do not extend or re-use t= he > basic mechanisms defined for TWAMP-Test and/or STAMP in their respective > specifications. Rather than that, drafts introduce a new query-response > mode and new formats of test packets that are decisively different from t= he > formats defined in respective specifications. As a result, the new > protocols are required to use different from used by TWAMP Light tr STAMP > test session UDP port numbers on the responder. And that is another clear > indication that the proposed mechanism represents a new protocol, neither > extends TWAMP Light and/or STAMP nor updates their specifications. > > > > As mentioned in previous replies, other than timestamp vs. counter > and it=E2=80=99s format, the messages and processing of them are the same= for delay > and direct-mode loss measurement. > > - Is there any advantage in introducing a dedicated packet format for > the direct packet loss in STAMP comparing to using the Direct Measurem= ent > TLV extension? > > Though it appears the using a dedicated packet format instead of TLV is > more efficient, but the dedicated for the direct loss measurement format = is > likely to precede one or even two TLVs, Node Address TLV and Path TLV, > defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. As a result, processing of the n= ew > packet with TLVs is unlikely to be more efficient and reduce the processi= ng > delay, than if using the Direct Measurement TLV as defined in > draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv. > > > > As mentioned in previous replies, this is explained in Section 1 of > the draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm > . For > link loss measurement (direct-mode), there is no TLV required for example= . > For direct-mode loss measurement in SR networks, it would *typically* be > forward direction packet loss measurement (and not bidirectional). > > > > > > =C2=B7 What are the potential benefits of specifying the return p= ath > in the new test packet's Sender Control Code? > > Using the Sender Control Code may require the use of the additional TLV > that carries the return path information, Path TLV. If the ability to > control the return path is required that can be achieved by augmenting th= e > STAMP YANG data model (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang) rather than including > the Path TLV in each test packet. Hence, there seem no technical > requirements to introduce the Sender Control Code field in the Base STAMP > format defined in RFC 8762. > > > > Per session basis between different sender nodes and this reflector > node, some senders will request the replies in-band (e.g. for two-way > mode). Sessions are provisioned on the Sender nodes and reflector simply > reflects based on the received test-packet (e.g. for a bidirectional SR > path). This is also similar to as described Section 3.1 in RFC 6374, top = of > page 22. There is no need to create a such state for each session on the > reflector node and create a scale limitation. Recall that we are trying t= o > avoid the scale limitation by eliminating the Control protocol signaling. > > > > I find some value to include the path TLV in wire. As Rakesh > mentioned, this can reduce the reflector configuration. But I am not > convinced to introduce the sender control code field. It seems to me, the > presence of path TLV indicates the bidirectional congruent path. Vise > versa. > > > > [Mach] Regarding how to specify the return path, the draft defines two > ways to achieve that, one is to use control code to direct whether the > reflected Test should be along the reverse path of a bidirectional path, > this applies to both TWAMP (no TLV mechanisms) and STAMP. At the same tim= e, > in the case of STAMP, it also defines the return path TLV to explicitly > specify the return path, which bring more options to specify the return > path. Therefore, I see benefit of the two ways. > GIM>> I think you've pointed to some vagueness in the definition of a mechanism used to define the return path. My understanding is that if a response required, the Return Path TLV must be present in a test packet. But, if TLVs are not used for TWAMP-like direct loss measurement, why not use the same method to control the return path? I believe that consistency is a good quality of a protocol (yes, I see *-twamp-srpm and *-stmp-srpm as a single protocol only presented as different entities). > > > > > Best regards, > > Mach > > > > What is the relationship between the *-srpm drafts and BFD? > > Some text in the *-srpm drafts suggest that the proposed method can be > used to monitor for the loss of a path continuity. That may be viewed as = an > alternative to the BFD protocol method for the detection of a network > failure. If the discussion of Loopback mode and monitoring of liveness > remain in the drafts, it seems logical that the BFD WG and BFD WG's Chair= s > be made aware of the proposals. I didn't take the liberty of adding BFD W= G > or its Chairs. I believe that decision to be made by the Chairs of IPPM A= nd > SPRING WGs. > > > > As mentioned in previous replies, STAMP/TWAMP test messages are also > used today for *synthetic* packet loss measurement which can be also used > to detect/monitor connection loss (performance metric). The draft simply > highlights this obvious metric. This is also very similar to what is > described in ITU Y.1731, Section 7.1. > > > > Thanks, > > Rakesh > > > > Regards, > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:10 PM Greg Mirsky > wrote: > > Hi Rakesh, > > thank you for your prompt response, much appreciated. I'll carefully read > your responses. Looking forward to the continued discussion. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:07 PM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) < > rgandhi@cisco.com> wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > > > Thank you for your review comments. As mentioned in the IPPM session > today, the email response was sent as attachments, see archive blow: > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/J503n-B2yOxF0urcHtGQKnqCRDE/ > > > > I am attaching them in word documents for the convenience. We can address > your comments below in the next revision of the document. > > > > Thanks, > > Rakesh > > > > > > *From: *Greg Mirsky > *Date: *Friday, November 13, 2020 at 10:09 AM > *To: *Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > *Cc: *Tommy Pauly , IPPM Chairs < > ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org , > IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > *Subject: *Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and > draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm > > Hi Rakesh, > > thank you for your response to my review. Please find my follow-up notes > in-lined below under the GIM>> tag. > > I hope you've found more detailed comments in the attachments (re-attache= d > for your convenience). I'm looking forward to reading your responses to t= he > detailed comments of all four drafts. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:11 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > wrote: > > Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and > providing the comments. Attached please find the email replies to your > review sent earlier. The replies are copied inline below for convenience= , > tagged with . > > > > > > *From: *ippm > *Date: *Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM > *To: *Tommy Pauly > *Cc: *IPPM Chairs , spring-chairs@ietf.org < > spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > *Subject: *Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and > draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm > > Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG community, > > I've reviewed these drafts and have some comments to share. Below, please > find my thoughts on whether these drafts can be adopted. More specific > comments on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft an= d > its accompanying draft targetted to the SPRING WG) are in the attached > documents. > > > > Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluated by > answers to these three questions: > > =C2=B7 Is the document(s) reasonably well-written > > I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology from RFCs > 4656/5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for > Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, > "congruent paths", are used in the documents without proper definitions. > Other than that both drafts are readable and reasonably well-written. > > > > We can change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to > Session-Reflector if it helps. > > GIM>> I believe that the consistency in terminology between the core RFC > and what is intended as its extension is not only helpful to a reader but= , > to the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications. > > There are many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, > 5340, 8330, etc.) and term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without > defining them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having > said that, we can add a reference for them if it helps. > > GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. I think I need to clarify my > questions. While a reference to any of RFCs you've mentioned, I don't thi= nk > that will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitalize= d > while referenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can > these be used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object? > > Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using the term "congruent path= " > in these drafts (using ASCII-art): > > C---------D > > / \ > > A----B E-----F > > \ / > > G------------H > > Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the network as > A-B-C-D-E-F. From the definition of "congruent" as "two figures or object= s > are congruent if they have the same shape and size, or if one has the sam= e > shape and size as the mirror image of the other", path A-B-G-H-E-F is > congruent to the SR tunnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to > monitor a flow over the SR tunnel is out-of-band and will not produce any > meaningful measurement. Of course, for the case of the extensions in > drafts, direct loss measurement can be performed, as information collecte= d > from node F. So, this example, in my opinion, illustrates two of my > concerns: > > - using a congruent path for an active OAM protocol may produce > information that does not reflect the condition experienced by the > monitored flow. It seems that the terminology should reflect the > fundamental requirement for using active OAM to maintain the test pack= ets > in-band with the monitored flow. > - there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band active > OAM protocol for direct packet loss measurement. As demonstrated in th= is > example, direct packet loss can be performed using an out-of-band > mechanism, e.g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG dat= a > model. > > > > =C2=B7 Does the document solve a real problem? > > No, it appears that both TWAMP and STAMP drafts define a new > performance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/TWAMP > and STAMP functionality in the respective drafts, and adding the ability = to > collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find sufficient > technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, > extending the existing OAM mechanisms like ICMP multi-part message > extension per RFC 4884. > > > > There is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as > synthetic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP > and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthet= ic > packet loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a > good option here. > > GIM>> I agree with the requirements you've listed (though the SPRING WG > OAM requirements document > has > been abandoned and expired 3+ years ago). I believe that there's no > sufficient technical reason to use OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for exclusive direct > packet loss measurement. > > > > =C2=B7 Is the proposed solution technically viable? > > There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced > by the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the > proposed solutions. > > > > About your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security > section in RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security > Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisione= d > in the domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other than this, = I > did not find any other security related issue in your review. > > GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference sufficiently explains why the > use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, does not crea= te > a security risk for the protocol. > > > > Thanks, > > Rakesh > > > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly 40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Hello IPPM, > > > > For the past few meetings, we=E2=80=99ve had updates on the work in the S= PRING WG > that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making > extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided > that it would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension > work in the IPPM WG. > > > > As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption > for draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. > > > > The documents are here: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 > > > The related SPRING documents are here: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 > > > > Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether or not > you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. > Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, o= n *Monday, > November 16*. > > > > Best, > > Tommy & Ian > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > --00000000000083a84c05b4790a92 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Mach,
    thank you for your=C2=A0email. I&#= 39;ve added my understanding of what has been proposed in-line tagged GIM&g= t;>.

    Regards,
    Greg

    On Wed, Nov 18, 202= 0 at 11:41 PM Mach Chen <mach.ch= en@huawei.com> wrote:

    Hi Tianran, Rakesh and Greg,

    =C2=A0

    Please see some responses inline with [Mach]=E2=80=A6

    =C2=A0

    From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tianran Zhou
    Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 1:33 PM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; G= reg Mirsky <g= regimirsky@gmail.com>
    Cc: spring <= spring@ietf.org>; IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>; spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy Pa= uly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    =C2=A0

    = Hi Rakesh and Greg,

    = =C2=A0

    = I may not very clear about the context. Please allow me to jump in.

    = It seems both of you make some valid point.

    = Please see in line with <ZTR>.

    = =C2=A0

    = Cheers,

    = Tianran

    = =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    = Hi Greg,

    = =C2=A0

    = Thank you for your review and discussions on the drafts. This will help imp= rove the work on this important work.

    = Please see replies inline with <RG>..

    = =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    From: Greg M= irsky <gregim= irsky@gmail.com>
    Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 5:27 PM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com>
    Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IPPM = Chairs <ippm-c= hairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@i= etf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi Rakesh, WG Chairs, and All,<= u>

    I've read the responses to = my detailed comments. I don't think that only adding references will so= lve the problems with the documents. If authors are interested in addressin= g my comments, we can start working on solving=C2=A0them one by one.

    =C2=A0

    = <RG> As mentioned in previous replies, we can add references for the = well-known terms =E2=80=9CLinks=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9CCongruent Paths=E2=80=9D= , =E2=80=9CSR Path=E2=80=9D. If you prefer, we can define them here. For Ze= ro checksum field, we can add a reference for the RFC 6936 in Security section and also add some tex= t for it. Will be happy to work with you to address these.

    = =C2=A0

    But I am very much concerned wi= th the technical value of these drafts. And here's why I feel that the = proposed documents don't provide a sound technical solution to the task= of direct loss measurement.=C2=A0Please find my reasoning explaining=C2=A0my opinion of the *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm:=

    • What is being proposed in these drafts?<= /span>

    Drafts *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp= -srpm propose a new protocol to support direct packet loss measurements. No= te, that RFC 6374 includes a method for direct loss measurement in MPLS net= works that is applicable to the SR-MPLS environment. Also, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv defines an extension t= o RFC 8762 STAMP, the Direct Measurement TLV, that supports the direct pack= et loss measurement. STAMP and all its extensions are applicable in IPv6 ne= tworks and, thus, can be used in the SRv6 domain.

    =C2=A0

    = <RG> As mentioned in previous replies, both RFC 6374 (in Section 4.2)= and ITU Y.1731 (in Section 8.1) define stand-alone messages for collecting= TX and RX counters for direct-mode loss measurement. TWAMP/STAMP messages defined in the drafts are equivalent of them that tak= e advantage of the widely deployed TWAMP protocol and as well this same pro= tocol can be deployed in IPv4/IPv6/MPLS/SRv6/EVPN/etc. networks.<= /u>

    =C2=A0

    <ZTR> I think RFC6374 for= MPLS and Y.1731 make some noise here. The point is if we need a new direct= packet loss measurement for STAMP, when STAMP already defined a Direct Mea= surement TLV (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-i= etf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv). If current Direct Measurement TLV cannot fulfill some use case requirement= , then how about proposing a new TLV.

    =C2=A0

    [Mach] Given that TWAMP does not support TLV, I assume tha= t the discussions are mainly about draft*-stamp-srpm.

    GIM>> You've brought a very good questio= n on how the return path, in case required by the Sender Control Code, intr= oduced in=C2=A0draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm, is specified? As you've po= inted out, RFC 5357 does not use TLV extensions. Should I assume that the r= eturn path, if required, provisioned through the management plane? I think = that that requires clarification.

    =C2=A0

    [Mach] In the case of direct packet loss measurement, draf= t-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm assumes that marking-based solution (which can add= ress the packet out-ordering issue) is used, hence the block number is introduced. The block number is used to correlat= e the counters from the sender and reflector. The current direct loss measu= rement TLV may just apply to the scenario without packet out-ordering.

    GIM>> I agree with your obs= ervation on the purpose of the Block Number field in both TWAMP-Light and S= TAMP documents. In my understanding, the new protocol may be also used to c= ollect counters generated by methods other than Alternate=C2=A0Marking. In = that case, I assume, the value of Block Number may not convey any informati= on.

    =C2=A0

    [Mach] In addition, whether to keep it as current design o= r to define a new TLV for direct loss measurement can be debatable. =C2=A0<= /span>

    GIM>> I agree with you.= And that what I am proposing - review the requirements, agree on requireme= nts, and review the proposed solution based on these requirements.=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    How the proposed method of dire= ct packet loss is related to TWAMP light and STAMP?

    There's no apparent technic= al relationship between *-twamp-srpm and TWAMP Light, or *-stamp-srpm draft= s and STAMP. Drafts do not extend or re-use the basic mechanisms defined fo= r=C2=A0 TWAMP-Test and/or STAMP in their respective specifications. Rather than that, drafts introduce a new query-response mo= de and new formats of test packets that are decisively different from the f= ormats defined in respective specifications. As a result, the new protocols= are required to use different from used by TWAMP Light tr STAMP test session UDP port numbers on the responde= r. And that is another clear indication that the proposed mechanism represe= nts a new protocol, neither extends TWAMP Light and/or STAMP nor updates th= eir specifications.

    =C2=A0

    = <RG> As mentioned in previous replies, other than timestamp vs. count= er and it=E2=80=99s format, the messages and processing of them are the sam= e for delay and direct-mode loss measurement.

    • Is there any advantage in introducing a dedicated pack= et format for the direct packet loss in STAMP comparing to using the Direct= Measurement TLV extension?

    Though it appears the using a d= edicated packet format instead of TLV is more efficient, but the dedicated = for the direct loss measurement format is likely to precede one or even two= TLVs, Node Address TLV and Path TLV, defined in=C2=A0draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. As a result, processing of t= he new packet with TLVs is unlikely to be more efficient and reduce the pro= cessing delay, than if using the Direct Measurement TLV as defined in draft= -ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv.

    =C2=A0

    = <RG> As mentioned in previous replies, this is explained in Section 1= of the draft-gandhi-sprin= g-stamp-srpm. For link loss measurement (direct-mode), there is = no TLV required for example. For direct-mode loss measurement in SR networks, it would typically be forward direction packet loss= measurement (and not bidirectional).

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    =C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 What are the potential ben= efits of specifying the return path in the new test packet's Sender Con= trol Code?

    Using the Sender Control Code m= ay require the use of the additional TLV that carries the return path infor= mation, Path TLV. If the ability to control the return path is required tha= t can be achieved by augmenting the STAMP YANG data model (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang) rather than including t= he Path TLV in each test packet. Hence, there seem no technical requirement= s to introduce the Sender Control Code field in the Base STAMP format defin= ed in RFC 8762.

    =C2=A0

    = <RG> Per session basis between different sender nodes and this reflec= tor node, some senders will request the replies in-band (e.g. for two-way m= ode). Sessions are provisioned on the Sender nodes and reflector simply reflects based on the received test-packet (e.g. for = a bidirectional SR path). This is also similar to as described Section 3.1 = in RFC 6374, top of page 22. There is no need to create a such state for ea= ch session on the reflector node and create a scale limitation. Recall that we are trying to avoid the scal= e limitation by eliminating the Control protocol signaling.

    =C2=A0

    <ZTR> I find some value t= o include the path TLV in wire. As Rakesh mentioned, this can reduce the re= flector configuration. But I am not convinced to introduce the sender contr= ol code field. It seems to me, the presence of path TLV indicates the bidirectional congruent path. Vise versa.

    =C2=A0

    [Mach] Regarding how to specify the return path, the draft= defines two ways to achieve that, one is to use control code to direct whe= ther the reflected Test should be along the reverse path of a bidirectional path, this applies to both TWAMP (no TLV mechanism= s) and STAMP. At the same time, in the case of STAMP, it also defines the r= eturn path TLV to explicitly specify the return path, which bring more opti= ons to specify the return path. Therefore, I see benefit of the two ways.

    GIM>> I think you've pointed to some vagueness in t= he definition of a mechanism used to define the return path. My understandi= ng is that if a response required, the Return Path TLV must be present in a= test packet. But, if TLVs are not used for TWAMP-like direct loss measurem= ent, why not use the same method to control the return path? I believe that= consistency is a good quality of a protocol (yes, I see *-twamp-srpm and *= -stmp-srpm as a single protocol only presented as different entities).

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    Best regards,

    Mach

    =C2=A0

    What is the relationship betwee= n the *-srpm drafts and BFD?

    Some text in the *-srpm drafts = suggest that the proposed method can be used=C2=A0to monitor for the loss o= f a path continuity. That may be viewed as an alternative to the BFD protoc= ol method for the detection of a network failure. If the discussion of Loopback mode and monitoring of liveness rem= ain in the drafts, it seems logical that the BFD WG and BFD WG's Chairs= be made aware of the proposals. I didn't take the liberty of adding BF= D WG or its Chairs. I believe that decision to be made by the Chairs of IPPM And SPRING WGs.

    =C2=A0

    = <RG> As mentioned in previous replies, STAMP/TWAMP test messages are = also used today for synthetic packet loss measurement which can be also used to detect/m= onitor connection loss (performance metric). The draft simply highlights th= is obvious metric. This is also very similar to what is described in ITU Y.= 1731, Section 7.1.

    = =C2=A0

    = Thanks,

    = Rakesh

    =C2=A0

    Re= gards,

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:10 P= M Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

    Hi Rakesh,=

    thank you for your prompt respo= nse,=C2=A0much appreciated. I'll carefully read your responses. Looking= forward to the continued discussion.

    =C2=A0

    Regards,

    Greg

    =C2=A0

    On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:07 P= M Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com> wrote:

    Hi Greg,

    =C2=A0

    Thank you for your review comme= nts. As mentioned in the IPPM session today, the email response was sent as= attachments, see archive blow:

    http= s://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/J503n-B2yOxF0urcHtGQKnqCRDE/<= /u>

    =C2=A0

    I am attaching them in word doc= uments for the convenience. We can address your comments below in the next = revision of the document.

    =C2=A0

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    From: Greg M= irsky <gregim= irsky@gmail.com>
    Date: Friday, November 13, 2020 at 10:09 AM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com>
    Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IPPM Chairs &l= t;ippm-chairs@iet= f.org>, spring-chairs@i= etf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm    <= /span>

    Hi Rakesh,=

    thank you for your response to = my review. Please find my follow-up notes in-lined below under the GIM>&= gt; tag.

    I hope you've found more de= tailed comments in the attachments (re-attached for your convenience). I= 9;m looking forward to reading your responses=C2=A0to the detailed comments of all four drafts.

    =C2=A0

    Regards,

    Greg

    =C2=A0

    On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:11 AM= Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com> wrote:

    = Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and p= roviding the comments.=C2=A0 Attached please find the email replies to your review sent earlier.=C2=A0 The replies are copied inline below for= convenience, tagged with <RG00>.<= u>

    = =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    From: ippm &= lt;ippm-bounces@= ietf.org>
    Date: Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM
    To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@i= etf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm    <= /span>

    Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IP= PM WG community,

    I've reviewed these drafts = and have some comments to share. Below, please find my thoughts on whether = these drafts can be adopted. More specific comments on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft and its accompanying= =C2=A0draft targetted=C2=A0to the SPRING WG) are in the attached documents.=

    =C2=A0

    Usually, the bar for the adoption o= f a document can be evaluated=C2=A0by answers to these three questions:

    =C2=B7=C2=A0 Is the document(s) reasonably well-written

    I've got surprised that the dra= fts don't use the terminology from RFCs 4656/5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. = Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", are used in the= documents without proper definitions. Other than that both drafts are read= able and reasonably well-written.=

    =C2=A0

    = <RG00> We can change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to Sessio= n-Reflector if it helps.=C2=A0

    GIM>> I believe that the = consistency in terminology between the core RFC and what is intended as its= extension is not only helpful to a reader but, to the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications.

    = <RG00> There are many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613= , 5340, 8330, etc.) and term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without defining them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having = said that, we can add a reference for them if it helps.

    GIM>> Thank you for listi= ng these RFCs. I think I need to clarify my questions. While a reference to= any of RFCs you've mentioned, I don't think that will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitalized while r= eferenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can = these be used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object?=

    Now I'll try to illustrate = my concern with using the term "congruent path" in these drafts (= using ASCII-art):

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0C---------D

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0\

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 A----B=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0E-----F

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0\=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0G------------H

    Consider an SR tunnel from A to= F that traverses the network as A-B-C-D-E-F. From the definition of "= congruent" as "two figures or objects are congruent if they have the same shape and size, or if one has the same shape and size as the= mirror image of the other", path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to the SR t= unnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to monitor a flow over the SR= tunnel is out-of-band and will not produce any meaningful measurement. Of course, for the case of the extensions in d= rafts, direct loss measurement can be performed, as information collected f= rom node F. So, this example, in my opinion, illustrates two of my concerns= :

    • using a congruent path for an active OAM protocol may = produce information that does not reflect the condition experienced by the = monitored flow. It seems that the terminology should reflect the fundamenta= l requirement for using active OAM to maintain the test packets in-band with the monitored flow.
    • there are no technical requirements to justify using i= n-band active OAM protocol for direct packet loss measurement. As demonstra= ted in this example, direct packet loss can be performed using an out-of-ba= nd mechanism, e.g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG data model.
      • <= /ul>

    =C2=A0

    =C2=B7=C2=A0 Does the document solve a real problem?

    No, it appears that=C2=A0 both TWAMP and STAMP drafts=C2=A0define a new performance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/= TWAMP and STAMP functionality in the respective drafts, and adding the abil= ity to collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't f= ind sufficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing OAM mechanisms= like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884.

    =C2=A0

    = <RG00> There is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as= synthetic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and sy= nthetic packet loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM = is a good option here.

    GIM>> I agree with the=C2= =A0requirements you've listed (though the SPRING WG OAM requirements document has been abandoned and expired 3+ y= ears ago). I believe that there's no sufficient technical reason=C2=A0t= o use OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for exclusive direct packet loss measurement.=C2=A0=

    =C2=A0

    =C2=B7=C2=A0 Is the proposed solution technically viable?=

    There are too many unaddressed aspe= cts, particularly the risk introduced by the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the proposed solutions.

    =C2=A0<= u>

    = <RG00> About your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Secu= rity section in RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally pr= ovisioned in the domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other tha= n this, I did not find any other security related issue in your review.

    GIM>> I don't think t= hat a mere reference sufficiently explains why the use of zero UDP checksum= in IPv6 header is not decremental, does not create a security risk for the protocol.

    = =C2=A0

    = Thanks,

    = Rakesh

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    Regards,

    Greg=

    =C2=A0<= /p>

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0<= /p>

    =C2=A0

    On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 A= M Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

    Hello IPPM,

    =C2=A0

    For the past few meetings, we= =E2=80=99ve had updates on the work in the SPRING WG that was using STAMP a= nd TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it would be= best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in the IPPM = WG.

    =C2=A0

    As such, we are starting a Work= ing Group call for adoption for=C2=A0draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft= -gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm.

    =C2=A0

    Please provide your feedback on= these documents, and state whether or not you believe the IPPM WG should a= dopt this work by replying to this email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Monday, Nov= ember 16.

    =C2=A0

    Best,

    Tommy & Ian

    _______________________________= ________________
    ippm mailing list
    ippm@ietf.org
    ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

    --00000000000083a84c05b4790a92-- From nobody Thu Nov 19 17:28:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 764363A14B6; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 17:28:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UhQ9m6OeQMLn; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 17:28:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 061913A14AE; Thu, 19 Nov 2020 17:28:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml703-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.207]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4Ccf4m1PHcz67Ctd; Fri, 20 Nov 2020 09:25:44 +0800 (CST) Received: from nkgeml708-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.160) by fraeml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.52) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1913.5; Fri, 20 Nov 2020 02:28:02 +0100 Received: from nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.157) by nkgeml708-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.160) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1913.5; Fri, 20 Nov 2020 09:28:00 +0800 Received: from nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.157]) by nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.157]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.007; Fri, 20 Nov 2020 09:28:00 +0800 From: Tianran Zhou To: "Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi)" , Mach Chen , Greg Mirsky CC: spring , IPPM Chairs , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" , Tommy Pauly , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Thread-Index: AQHWrutyzmWv/eapkkq7mEvT+f83ham/jAuAgAGIKYCABKWmAIAEH64AgAAA6ACAAqNCgIAAFHgAgAJz+6D//6SbgIAAfuoAgAEsbKA= Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 01:28:00 +0000 Message-ID: <02323949c3d9479a92c674a676f366ae@huawei.com> References: , , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.128] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_02323949c3d9479a92c674a676f366aehuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 01:28:12 -0000 --_000_02323949c3d9479a92c674a676f366aehuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mach and Rakesh, Thanks for your reply. I am now much more clear. But I really think the draft should add more text on the motivation and use= case. It would be very helpful for the audience to understand. For example, one of my question about the new direct measurement. There is rare word on how to use it, how it's different from existing stamp= direct measurement tlv. Anyway, I find some valuable extensions in these two drafts. I would like t= o support the adoption and help to improve this document. Best, Tianran From: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) [mailto:rgandhi@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:15 PM To: Mach Chen ; Tianran Zhou = ; Greg Mirsky Cc: spring ; IPPM Chairs ; spring-ch= airs@ietf.org; Tommy Pauly ; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)= Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Thank you Mach and Tianran for your review comments. Please see inline reply with ... From: Mach Chen > Date: Thursday, November 19, 2020 at 2:41 AM To: Tianran Zhou >, R= akesh Gandhi (rgandhi) >, Greg = Mirsky > Cc: spring >, IPPM Chairs >, spring-chairs@ietf.org >, Tommy Pauly >, IETF IPPM WG = (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: RE: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Tianran, Rakesh and Greg, Please see some responses inline with [Mach]... From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tianran Zhou Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 1:33 PM To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) >; Greg Mirsky > Cc: spring >; IPPM Chairs >; spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy Pauly >; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Rakesh and Greg, I may not very clear about the context. Please allow me to jump in. It seems both of you make some valid point. Please see in line with . Cheers, Tianran From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rakesh Gandhi (r= gandhi) Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 7:41 AM To: Greg Mirsky > Cc: spring >; IPPM Chairs >; spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy Pauly >; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: Re: [spring] [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srp= m and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Greg, Thank you for your review and discussions on the drafts. This will help imp= rove the work on this important work. Please see replies inline with .. From: Greg Mirsky > Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 5:27 PM To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > Cc: Tommy Pauly >, IPPM Chairs >, spring-chairs@ietf.org >, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.o= rg) >, spring > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Rakesh, WG Chairs, and All, I've read the responses to my detailed comments. I don't think that only ad= ding references will solve the problems with the documents. If authors are = interested in addressing my comments, we can start working on solving them = one by one. As mentioned in previous replies, we can add references for the well-k= nown terms "Links", "Congruent Paths", "SR Path". If you prefer, we can def= ine them here. For Zero checksum field, we can add a reference for the RFC = 6936 in Security section and also add some text for it. Will be happy to wo= rk with you to address these. But I am very much concerned with the technical value of these drafts. And = here's why I feel that the proposed documents don't provide a sound technic= al solution to the task of direct loss measurement. Please find my reasonin= g explaining my opinion of the *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm: * What is being proposed in these drafts? Drafts *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm propose a new protocol to support dire= ct packet loss measurements. Note, that RFC 6374 includes a method for dire= ct loss measurement in MPLS networks that is applicable to the SR-MPLS envi= ronment. Also, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv defines an extension to RFC= 8762 STAMP, the Direct Measurement TLV, that supports the direct packet lo= ss measurement. STAMP and all its extensions are applicable in IPv6 network= s and, thus, can be used in the SRv6 domain. As mentioned in previous replies, both RFC 6374 (in Section 4.2) and I= TU Y.1731 (in Section 8.1) define stand-alone messages for collecting TX an= d RX counters for direct-mode loss measurement. TWAMP/STAMP messages define= d in the drafts are equivalent of them that take advantage of the widely de= ployed TWAMP protocol and as well this same protocol can be deployed in IPv= 4/IPv6/MPLS/SRv6/EVPN/etc. networks. I think RFC6374 for MPLS and Y.1731 make some noise here. The point i= s if we need a new direct packet loss measurement for STAMP, when STAMP alr= eady defined a Direct Measurement TLV (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra= ft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv). If current Direct Measurement TLV cannot fu= lfill some use case requirement, then how about proposing a new TLV. [Mach] Given that TWAMP does not support TLV, I assume that the discussions= are mainly about draft*-stamp-srpm. [Mach] In the case of direct packet loss measurement, draft-gandhi-ippm-sta= mp-srpm assumes that marking-based solution (which can address the packet o= ut-ordering issue) is used, hence the block number is introduced. The block= number is used to correlate the counters from the sender and reflector. Th= e current direct loss measurement TLV may just apply to the scenario withou= t packet out-ordering. To further add to this, as TWAMP Light does not have a TLV, we need = to define a stand-alone message for direct-mode LM. STAMP is just the same = message but fixed length, so this way both can interoperate and also we can= leverage the message for both of these protocols. For STAMP direct-mode LM TLV approach, some technical details are in the dr= aft as well: The STAMP message with a TLV for "direct measurement" can be used for combined Delay + Loss measurement [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv]. However, in order to use only for loss measurement purpose, it requires the node to support the delay measurement messages and support timestamp for these messages (which may also require clock synchronization for one-way delay). Furthermore, for hardware-based cou= nter collection for direct-mode loss measurement, the optional TLV based processing adds unnecessary overhead (as counters are not at well-known locations). [Mach] In addition, whether to keep it as current design or to define a new= TLV for direct loss measurement can be debatable. How the proposed method of direct packet loss is related to TWAMP light and= STAMP? There's no apparent technical relationship between *-twamp-srpm and TWAMP L= ight, or *-stamp-srpm drafts and STAMP. Drafts do not extend or re-use the = basic mechanisms defined for TWAMP-Test and/or STAMP in their respective s= pecifications. Rather than that, drafts introduce a new query-response mode= and new formats of test packets that are decisively different from the for= mats defined in respective specifications. As a result, the new protocols a= re required to use different from used by TWAMP Light tr STAMP test session= UDP port numbers on the responder. And that is another clear indication th= at the proposed mechanism represents a new protocol, neither extends TWAMP = Light and/or STAMP nor updates their specifications. As mentioned in previous replies, other than timestamp vs. counter and= it's format, the messages and processing of them are the same for delay an= d direct-mode loss measurement. * Is there any advantage in introducing a dedicated packet format for t= he direct packet loss in STAMP comparing to using the Direct Measurement TL= V extension? Though it appears the using a dedicated packet format instead of TLV is mor= e efficient, but the dedicated for the direct loss measurement format is li= kely to precede one or even two TLVs, Node Address TLV and Path TLV, define= d in draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. As a result, processing of the new packe= t with TLVs is unlikely to be more efficient and reduce the processing dela= y, than if using the Direct Measurement TLV as defined in draft-ietf-ippm-s= tamp-option-tlv. As mentioned in previous replies, this is explained in Section 1 of th= e draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm. For link loss measurement (direct-mode), there is = no TLV required for example. For direct-mode loss measurement in SR network= s, it would typically be forward direction packet loss measurement (and not= bidirectional). * What are the potential benefits of specifying the return path in = the new test packet's Sender Control Code? Using the Sender Control Code may require the use of the additional TLV tha= t carries the return path information, Path TLV. If the ability to control = the return path is required that can be achieved by augmenting the STAMP YA= NG data model (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang) rather than including the Path T= LV in each test packet. Hence, there seem no technical requirements to intr= oduce the Sender Control Code field in the Base STAMP format defined in RFC= 8762. Per session basis between different sender nodes and this reflector no= de, some senders will request the replies in-band (e.g. for two-way mode). = Sessions are provisioned on the Sender nodes and reflector simply reflects = based on the received test-packet (e.g. for a bidirectional SR path). This = is also similar to as described Section 3.1 in RFC 6374, top of page 22. Th= ere is no need to create a such state for each session on the reflector nod= e and create a scale limitation. Recall that we are trying to avoid the sca= le limitation by eliminating the Control protocol signaling. I find some value to include the path TLV in wire. As Rakesh mentione= d, this can reduce the reflector configuration. But I am not convinced to i= ntroduce the sender control code field. It seems to me, the presence of pat= h TLV indicates the bidirectional congruent path. Vise versa. [Mach] Regarding how to specify the return path, the draft defines two ways= to achieve that, one is to use control code to direct whether the reflecte= d Test should be along the reverse path of a bidirectional path, this appli= es to both TWAMP (no TLV mechanisms) and STAMP. At the same time, in the ca= se of STAMP, it also defines the return path TLV to explicitly specify the = return path, which bring more options to specify the return path. Therefore= , I see benefit of the two ways. To further add to this, the IPPM draft simply defines protocol extens= ions. The use-cases are there in the corresponding spring drafts. For examp= le, for links, no return Path TLV is used, etc. In other words, the use-cas= es are different for the two, and there is no TLV in TWAMP anyways. Thanks, Rakesh Best regards, Mach What is the relationship between the *-srpm drafts and BFD? Some text in the *-srpm drafts suggest that the proposed method can be used= to monitor for the loss of a path continuity. That may be viewed as an alt= ernative to the BFD protocol method for the detection of a network failure.= If the discussion of Loopback mode and monitoring of liveness remain in th= e drafts, it seems logical that the BFD WG and BFD WG's Chairs be made awar= e of the proposals. I didn't take the liberty of adding BFD WG or its Chair= s. I believe that decision to be made by the Chairs of IPPM And SPRING WGs. As mentioned in previous replies, STAMP/TWAMP test messages are also u= sed today for synthetic packet loss measurement which can be also used to d= etect/monitor connection loss (performance metric). The draft simply highli= ghts this obvious metric. This is also very similar to what is described in= ITU Y.1731, Section 7.1. Thanks, Rakesh Regards, On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:10 PM Greg Mirsky > wrote: Hi Rakesh, thank you for your prompt response, much appreciated. I'll carefully read y= our responses. Looking forward to the continued discussion. Regards, Greg On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:07 PM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > wrote: Hi Greg, Thank you for your review comments. As mentioned in the IPPM session today,= the email response was sent as attachments, see archive blow: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/J503n-B2yOxF0urcHtGQKnqCRDE/ I am attaching them in word documents for the convenience. We can address y= our comments below in the next revision of the document. Thanks, Rakesh From: Greg Mirsky > Date: Friday, November 13, 2020 at 10:09 AM To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > Cc: Tommy Pauly >, IPPM Chairs >, spring-chairs@ietf.org >, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Rakesh, thank you for your response to my review. Please find my follow-up notes in= -lined below under the GIM>> tag. I hope you've found more detailed comments in the attachments (re-attached = for your convenience). I'm looking forward to reading your responses to the= detailed comments of all four drafts. Regards, Greg On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:11 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > wrote: Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and p= roviding the comments. Attached please find the email replies to your revi= ew sent earlier. The replies are copied inline below for convenience, tagg= ed with . From: ippm > Date: Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM To: Tommy Pauly > Cc: IPPM Chairs >, spring= -chairs@ietf.org >, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG community, I've reviewed these drafts and have some comments to share. Below, please f= ind my thoughts on whether these drafts can be adopted. More specific comme= nts on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft and its a= ccompanying draft targetted to the SPRING WG) are in the attached documents= . Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluated by answers= to these three questions: * Is the document(s) reasonably well-written I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology from RFCs 4656= /5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender = and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", ar= e used in the documents without proper definitions. Other than that both dr= afts are readable and reasonably well-written. We can change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Refl= ector if it helps. GIM>> I believe that the consistency in terminology between the core RFC an= d what is intended as its extension is not only helpful to a reader but, to= the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications. There are many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340= , 8330, etc.) and term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without definin= g them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having said tha= t, we can add a reference for them if it helps. GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. I think I need to clarify my questi= ons. While a reference to any of RFCs you've mentioned, I don't think that = will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitalized while= referenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can these be= used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object? Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using the term "congruent path" = in these drafts (using ASCII-art): C---------D / \ A----B E-----F \ / G------------H Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the network as A-B-C-D-E-F= . From the definition of "congruent" as "two figures or objects are congrue= nt if they have the same shape and size, or if one has the same shape and s= ize as the mirror image of the other", path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to the= SR tunnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to monitor a flow over t= he SR tunnel is out-of-band and will not produce any meaningful measurement= . Of course, for the case of the extensions in drafts, direct loss measurem= ent can be performed, as information collected from node F. So, this exampl= e, in my opinion, illustrates two of my concerns: * using a congruent path for an active OAM protocol may produce informa= tion that does not reflect the condition experienced by the monitored flow.= It seems that the terminology should reflect the fundamental requirement f= or using active OAM to maintain the test packets in-band with the monitored= flow. * there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band active O= AM protocol for direct packet loss measurement. As demonstrated in this exa= mple, direct packet loss can be performed using an out-of-band mechanism, e= .g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG data model. * Does the document solve a real problem? No, it appears that both TWAMP and STAMP drafts define a new performance = measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/TWAMP and STAMP fun= ctionality in the respective drafts, and adding the ability to collect coun= ters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find sufficient technical argument= s for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing O= AM mechanisms like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884. There is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as synth= etic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWA= MP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packet= loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a good opti= on here. GIM>> I agree with the requirements you've listed (though the SPRING WG OAM= requirements document has been abandoned and expired 3+ years ago). I believe th= at there's no sufficient technical reason to use OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for excl= usive direct packet loss measurement. * Is the proposed solution technically viable? There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced by= the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the propose= d solutions. About your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security s= ection in RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Secti= on as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in th= e domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other than this, I did n= ot find any other security related issue in your review. GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference sufficiently explains why the use= of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, does not create a = security risk for the protocol. Thanks, Rakesh Regards, Greg On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly > wrote: Hello IPPM, For the past few meetings, we've had updates on the work in the SPRING WG t= hat was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making extens= ions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it w= ould be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in th= e IPPM WG. As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption for draft-gandhi= -ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. The documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 The related SPRING documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether or not y= ou believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Pl= ease provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mo= nday, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --_000_02323949c3d9479a92c674a676f366aehuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hi Mach and Rakesh,

     

    Thanks for your reply.= I am now much more clear.

    But I really think the= draft should add more text on the motivation and use case.  It would = be very helpful for the audience to understand.  

    For example, one of my= question about the new direct measurement.

    There is rare word on = how to use it, how it’s different from existing stamp direct measurem= ent tlv.

    Anyway, I find some va= luable extensions in these two drafts. I would like to support the adoption= and help to improve this document.

     

    Best,

    Tianran

     

     

    From: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) [mailto:rgandhi= @cisco.com]
    Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:15 PM
    To: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>; Tianran Zhou <zhoutia= nran@huawei.com>; Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
    Cc: spring <spring@ietf.org>; IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf= .org>; spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>; IET= F IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

     

    Thank y= ou Mach and Tianran for your review comments.

    Please = see inline reply with <RG2>…

     

    From: Mach= Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com&= gt;
    Date: Thursday, November 19, 2020 at 2:41 AM
    To: Tianran Zhou <zhout= ianran@huawei.com>, Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
    Cc: spring <spring@ietf.org>, IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@= ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, Tom= my Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>, = IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: RE: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi Ti= anran, Rakesh and Greg,

     = ;

    Pleas= e see some responses inline with [Mach]…<= o:p>

     = ;

    From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tianran Zhou
    Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 1:33 PM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Greg Mirs= ky <gregimirsky@gmail.com&g= t;
    Cc: spring <spring@ietf.org>; IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@= ietf.org>; spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy= Pauly <tpauly=3D= 40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.o= rg>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

     

    Hi Rakesh and Greg,

     

    I may not very clear a= bout the context. Please allow me to jump in.

    It seems both of you m= ake some valid point.

    Please see in line wit= h <ZTR>.

     

    Cheers,

    Tianran

     

    From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi)
    Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 7:41 AM
    To: Greg Mirsky <gregimi= rsky@gmail.com>
    Cc: spring <spring@ietf.org>; IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@= ietf.org>; spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy= Pauly <tpauly=3D= 40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.o= rg>
    Subject: Re: [spring] [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-tw= amp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

     

    Hi Greg= ,

     <= /span>

    Thank y= ou for your review and discussions on the drafts. This will help improve th= e work on this important work.

    Please = see replies inline with <RG>..=

     <= /span>

     

    From: Greg= Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com<= /a>>
    Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 5:27 PM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <    rgandhi@cisco.com>
    Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IET= F IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi Rakesh, WG Chairs, and All,<= o:p>

    I've read the responses to my d= etailed comments. I don't think that only adding references will solve the = problems with the documents. If authors are interested in addressing my com= ments, we can start working on solving them one by one.

     

    <RG&= gt; As mentioned in previous replies, we can add references for the well-kn= own terms “Links”, “Congruent Paths”, “SR Pat= h”. If you prefer, we can define them here. For Zero checksum field, = we can add a reference for the RFC 6936 in Security section and also add some tex= t for it. Will be happy to work with you to address these.

     <= /span>

    But I am very much concerned wi= th the technical value of these drafts. And here's why I feel that the prop= osed documents don't provide a sound technical solution to the task of dire= ct loss measurement. Please find my reasoning explaining my opinion of the *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm:=

    • What is being proposed in these drafts?

    Drafts *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp= -srpm propose a new protocol to support direct packet loss measurements. No= te, that RFC 6374 includes a method for direct loss measurement in MPLS net= works that is applicable to the SR-MPLS environment. Also, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv defines an extension t= o RFC 8762 STAMP, the Direct Measurement TLV, that supports the direct pack= et loss measurement. STAMP and all its extensions are applicable in IPv6 ne= tworks and, thus, can be used in the SRv6 domain.

     

    <RG&= gt; As mentioned in previous replies, both RFC 6374 (in Section 4.2) and IT= U Y.1731 (in Section 8.1) define stand-alone messages for collecting TX and= RX counters for direct-mode loss measurement. TWAMP/STAMP messages defined in the drafts are equivalent of them that tak= e advantage of the widely deployed TWAMP protocol and as well this same pro= tocol can be deployed in IPv4/IPv6/MPLS/SRv6/EVPN/etc. networks.

     

    <ZTR> I think RFC6374 for= MPLS and Y.1731 make some noise here. The point is if we need a new direct= packet loss measurement for STAMP, when STAMP already defined a Direct Mea= surement TLV (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-opt= ion-tlv). If current Direct Measurement TLV cannot fulfill some use case requirement= , then how about proposing a new TLV.

     

    [Mach] Given that TWAMP does not support TLV, I assume that the d= iscussions are mainly about draft*-stamp-srpm.<= o:p>

     

    [Mach] In the case of direct packet loss measurement, draft-gandh= i-ippm-stamp-srpm assumes that marking-based solution (which can address th= e packet out-ordering issue) is used, hence the block number is introduced. The block number is used to correlat= e the counters from the sender and reflector. The current direct loss measu= rement TLV may just apply to the scenario without packet out-ordering.

     

    <RG2= > To further add to this,  as TWAMP Light does not have a TLV, we n= eed to define a stand-alone message for direct-mode LM. STAMP is just the s= ame message but fixed length, so this way both can interoperate and also we can leverage the message for both of these protoc= ols.

     

    For STAMP direct-mode LM TLV a= pproach, some technical details are in the draft as well:=

     

       The STAMP message with a TLV for "= direct measurement" can be used for

       combined Delay + Loss measurement [= I-D= .ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv].

       However, in order to use only for loss = measurement purpose, it=

       requires the node to support the delay = measurement messages and

       support timestamp for these messages (w= hich may also require clock

       synchronization for one-way delay).&nbs= p; Furthermore, for hardware-based counter collection

       for direct-mode loss measurement, the o= ptional TLV based processing

       adds unnecessary overhead (as counters = are not at well-known

       locations).

     

     

     

    [Mach] In addition, whether to keep it as current design or to de= fine a new TLV for direct loss measurement can be debatable.  <= span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">

     

     

     

    How the proposed method of dire= ct packet loss is related to TWAMP light and STAMP?

    There's no apparent technical r= elationship between *-twamp-srpm and TWAMP Light, or *-stamp-srpm drafts an= d STAMP. Drafts do not extend or re-use the basic mechanisms defined for&nb= sp; TWAMP-Test and/or STAMP in their respective specifications. Rather than that, drafts introduce a new query-response mo= de and new formats of test packets that are decisively different from the f= ormats defined in respective specifications. As a result, the new protocols= are required to use different from used by TWAMP Light tr STAMP test session UDP port numbers on the responde= r. And that is another clear indication that the proposed mechanism represe= nts a new protocol, neither extends TWAMP Light and/or STAMP nor updates th= eir specifications.

     

    <RG&= gt; As mentioned in previous replies, other than timestamp vs. counter and = it’s format, the messages and processing of them are the same for del= ay and direct-mode loss measurement.=

    • Is there any advantage in introducing a dedicated pack= et format for the direct packet loss in STAMP comparing to using the Direct= Measurement TLV extension?

    Though it appears the using a d= edicated packet format instead of TLV is more efficient, but the dedicated = for the direct loss measurement format is likely to precede one or even two= TLVs, Node Address TLV and Path TLV, defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. As a result, processing of t= he new packet with TLVs is unlikely to be more efficient and reduce the pro= cessing delay, than if using the Direct Measurement TLV as defined in draft= -ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv.

     

    <RG&= gt; As mentioned in previous replies, this is explained in Section 1 of the draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm. = For link loss measurement (direct-mode), there is no TLV required for examp= le. For direct-mode loss measurement in SR networks, it would typically be forward direction packet loss= measurement (and not bidirectional).

     

     

    ·         What are the potential = benefits of specifying the return path in the new test packet's Sender Cont= rol Code?

    Using the Sender Control Code m= ay require the use of the additional TLV that carries the return path infor= mation, Path TLV. If the ability to control the return path is required tha= t can be achieved by augmenting the STAMP YANG data model (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang) rather than including t= he Path TLV in each test packet. Hence, there seem no technical requirement= s to introduce the Sender Control Code field in the Base STAMP format defin= ed in RFC 8762.

     

    <RG&= gt; Per session basis between different sender nodes and this reflector nod= e, some senders will request the replies in-band (e.g. for two-way mode). S= essions are provisioned on the Sender nodes and reflector simply reflects based on the received test-packet (e.g. for = a bidirectional SR path). This is also similar to as described Section 3.1 = in RFC 6374, top of page 22. There is no need to create a such state for ea= ch session on the reflector node and create a scale limitation. Recall that we are trying to avoid the scal= e limitation by eliminating the Control protocol signaling.

     

    <ZTR> I find some value t= o include the path TLV in wire. As Rakesh mentioned, this can reduce the re= flector configuration. But I am not convinced to introduce the sender contr= ol code field. It seems to me, the presence of path TLV indicates the bidirectional congruent path. Vise versa. <= /o:p>

     

    [Mach] Regarding how to specify the return path, the draft define= s two ways to achieve that, one is to use control code to direct whether th= e reflected Test should be along the reverse path of a bidirectional path, this applies to both TWAMP (no TLV mechanism= s) and STAMP. At the same time, in the case of STAMP, it also defines the r= eturn path TLV to explicitly specify the return path, which bring more opti= ons to specify the return path. Therefore, I see benefit of the two ways.

     

    <RG2= > To further add to this, the IPPM draft simply defines protocol extensi= ons. The use-cases are there in the corresponding spring drafts. For exampl= e, for links, no return Path TLV is used, etc. In other words, the use-cases are different for the two, and there is no T= LV in TWAMP anyways.

    &n= bsp;

    Thanks,=

    Rakesh<= o:p>

    &n= bsp;

     

     

    Best regards,

    Mach

     

    What is the relationship betwee= n the *-srpm drafts and BFD?

    Some text in the *-srpm drafts = suggest that the proposed method can be used to monitor for the loss o= f a path continuity. That may be viewed as an alternative to the BFD protoc= ol method for the detection of a network failure. If the discussion of Loopback mode and monitoring of liveness rem= ain in the drafts, it seems logical that the BFD WG and BFD WG's Chairs be = made aware of the proposals. I didn't take the liberty of adding BFD WG or = its Chairs. I believe that decision to be made by the Chairs of IPPM And SPRING WGs.

     

    <RG&= gt; As mentioned in previous replies, STAMP/TWAMP test messages are also us= ed today for synthetic packet loss measurement which can be also used to detect/m= onitor connection loss (performance metric). The draft simply highlights th= is obvious metric. This is also very similar to what is described in ITU Y.= 1731, Section 7.1.

     <= /span>

    Thanks,=

    Rakesh<= /span>

    =  

    = Regards,

     

     

    On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:10 P= M Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

    Hi Rakesh,

    thank you for your prompt respo= nse, much appreciated. I'll carefully read your responses. Looking for= ward to the continued discussion.

     

    Regards,

    Greg

     

    On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:07 P= M Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com> wrote:

    Hi Greg,

     

    Thank you for your review comments. As mentio= ned in the IPPM session today, the email response was sent as attachments, = see archive blow:

    https://mailarchiv= e.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/J503n-B2yOxF0urcHtGQKnqCRDE/=

     

    I am attaching them in word documents for the= convenience. We can address your comments below in the next revision of th= e document.

     

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

     

     

    From: Greg= Mirsky <greg= imirsky@gmail.com>
    Date: Friday, November 13, 2020 at 10:09 AM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com>
    Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IPPM Chairs &l= t;ippm-chairs@iet= f.org>, spring-chairs@i= etf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi Rakesh,

    thank you for your response to my review. Ple= ase find my follow-up notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.<= /o:p>

    I hope you've found more detailed comments in= the attachments (re-attached for your convenience). I'm looking forward to= reading your responses to the detailed comments of all four drafts.

     

    Regards,

    Greg

     

    On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:11 AM Rakesh Gandhi= (rgandhi) <rgand= hi@cisco.com> wrote:

    Thank you Greg for ta= king time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and providing the comments= .  Attached please find the email replies to your review sent earlier.  The replies are copied inline below for= convenience, tagged with <RG00>.

     

     

    From: ippm= <ippm-bounce= s@ietf.org>
    Date: Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM
    To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
    Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@i= etf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG communit= y,

    I've reviewed these drafts and have some comm= ents to share. Below, please find my thoughts on whether these drafts can b= e adopted. More specific comments on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft and its accompanying=  draft targetted to the SPRING WG) are in the attached documents.=

     

    Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document= can be evaluated by answers to these three questions:

    ·=   Is the document(s) reasonably well-written=

    I've got surprised that the drafts don't use th= e terminology from RFCs 4656/5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. = Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", are used in the= documents without proper definitions. Other than that both drafts are read= able and reasonably well-written.

     

    <RG00> We can c= hange Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Reflector if it hel= ps. 

    GIM>> I believe that the consistency in= terminology between the core RFC and what is intended as its extension is = not only helpful to a reader but, to the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications.

    <RG00> There ar= e many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340, 8330, etc.) a= nd term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without defining them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having = said that, we can add a reference for them if it helps.

    GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs.= I think I need to clarify my questions. While a reference to any of RFCs y= ou've mentioned, I don't think that will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitalized while r= eferenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can = these be used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object?

    Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with us= ing the term "congruent path" in these drafts (using ASCII-art):<= o:p>

                &nb= sp;          C---------D

                &nb= sp;        /            &= nbsp;    \

                A--= --B                   E--= ---F

                &nb= sp;        \            &= nbsp;     /

                &nb= sp;        G------------H

    Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traver= ses the network as A-B-C-D-E-F. From the definition of "congruent"= ; as "two figures or objects are congruent if they have the same shape and size, or if one has the same shape and size as the= mirror image of the other", path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to the SR t= unnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to monitor a flow over the SR= tunnel is out-of-band and will not produce any meaningful measurement. Of course, for the case of the extensions in d= rafts, direct loss measurement can be performed, as information collected f= rom node F. So, this example, in my opinion, illustrates two of my concerns= :

    • using a congruent path for an active OAM protocol may = produce information that does not reflect the condition experienced by the = monitored flow. It seems that the terminology should reflect the fundamenta= l requirement for using active OAM to maintain the test packets in-band with the monitored flow.
    • there are no technical requirements to justify using i= n-band active OAM protocol for direct packet loss measurement. As demonstra= ted in this example, direct packet loss can be performed using an out-of-ba= nd mechanism, e.g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG data model.

     

    ·=   Does the document solve a real problem?

    No, it appears that  both TWAMP and STAMP drafts  define a new performance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/= TWAMP and STAMP functionality in the respective drafts, and adding the abil= ity to collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find = sufficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing OAM mechanisms= like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884.

     

    <RG00> There is= a requirement to measure performance delay as well as synthetic and direct= -mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and sy= nthetic packet loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM = is a good option here.

    GIM>> I agree with the requirement= s you've listed (though the SPRING WG OAM requirements document has been abandoned and expired 3= 3; years ago). I believe that there's no sufficient technical reason t= o use OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for exclusive direct packet loss measurement. =

     

    ·=   Is the proposed solution technically viable?

    There are too many unaddressed aspects, particu= larly the risk introduced by the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the proposed solutions.

     

    <RG00> About yo= ur comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security section in RFC 6= 936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally pr= ovisioned in the domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other tha= n this, I did not find any other security related issue in your review.

    GIM>> I don't think that a mere referen= ce sufficiently explains why the use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is= not decremental, does not create a security risk for the protocol.

     

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

     

     

    Regards,=

    Greg

     

     

     

     

    On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly = <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

    Hello IPPM,

     

    For the past few meetings, we’ve had up= dates on the work in the SPRING WG that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since th= ose documents ended up making extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it would be= best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in the IPPM = WG.

     

    As such, we are starting a Working Group call= for adoption for draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-s= tamp-srpm.

     

    Please provide your feedback on these documen= ts, and state whether or not you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work= by replying to this email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Monday, Nov= ember 16.

     

    Best,

    Tommy & Ian

    _____________________________________________= __
    ippm mailing list
    ippm@ietf.org
    ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

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15.20.3589.021; Fri, 20 Nov 2020 04:54:09 +0000 From: "Spiegel, Mickey" To: Tommy Pauly , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" CC: IPPM Chairs Thread-Topic: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-zhou-ippm-ioam-yang Thread-Index: AQHWruxIFRtBPYJB7k21Qt16InOcLanQDmqA Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 04:54:09 +0000 Message-ID: <3754265B-BBB0-4510-90FF-247DD4807BA7@intel.com> References: <43DADFB5-FE8A-49A1-BF39-1ECC10594211@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <43DADFB5-FE8A-49A1-BF39-1ECC10594211@apple.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.43.20110804 authentication-results: dmarc.ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc.ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=intel.com; x-originating-ip: [73.202.53.195] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: d2229de9-96b6-49c0-4bc3-08d88d10517a x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MWHPR11MB1872: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: 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Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DM6PR11MB31157E530DF68F7A1A663483BFFF0DM6PR11MB3115namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR11MB3115.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f187879d-2279-44c6-984a-08d88d1b6024 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Nov 2020 06:13:18.7917 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: h74oM+lFfrSVTDrQpBqosZ5zICGhGudKi1r59kt9ffZx85/L3VOJdyQjCKjnvCFZuUUwfqr1pdxdllyE21tv8Q== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR11MB4660 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.12, xch-aln-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-6.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 06:13:36 -0000 --_000_DM6PR11MB31157E530DF68F7A1A663483BFFF0DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Tianran for the review comments. We will address the comment in the = next revision of the document. Thanks, Rakesh From: Tianran Zhou Date: Thursday, November 19, 2020 at 8:28 PM To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) , Mach Chen , Greg Mirsky Cc: spring , IPPM Chairs , spring-ch= airs@ietf.org , Tommy Pauly , IET= F IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Subject: RE: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Mach and Rakesh, Thanks for your reply. I am now much more clear. But I really think the draft should add more text on the motivation and use= case. It would be very helpful for the audience to understand. For example, one of my question about the new direct measurement. There is rare word on how to use it, how it=92s different from existing sta= mp direct measurement tlv. Anyway, I find some valuable extensions in these two drafts. I would like t= o support the adoption and help to improve this document. Best, Tianran From: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) [mailto:rgandhi@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:15 PM To: Mach Chen ; Tianran Zhou = ; Greg Mirsky Cc: spring ; IPPM Chairs ; spring-ch= airs@ietf.org; Tommy Pauly ; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)= Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Thank you Mach and Tianran for your review comments. Please see inline reply with =85 From: Mach Chen > Date: Thursday, November 19, 2020 at 2:41 AM To: Tianran Zhou >, R= akesh Gandhi (rgandhi) >, Greg = Mirsky > Cc: spring >, IPPM Chairs >, spring-chairs@ietf.org >, Tommy Pauly >, IETF IPPM WG = (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: RE: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Tianran, Rakesh and Greg, Please see some responses inline with [Mach]=85 From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tianran Zhou Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 1:33 PM To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) >; Greg Mirsky > Cc: spring >; IPPM Chairs >; spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy Pauly >; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Rakesh and Greg, I may not very clear about the context. Please allow me to jump in. It seems both of you make some valid point. Please see in line with . Cheers, Tianran From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rakesh Gandhi (r= gandhi) Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 7:41 AM To: Greg Mirsky > Cc: spring >; IPPM Chairs >; spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy Pauly >; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: Re: [spring] [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srp= m and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Greg, Thank you for your review and discussions on the drafts. This will help imp= rove the work on this important work. Please see replies inline with .. From: Greg Mirsky > Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 5:27 PM To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > Cc: Tommy Pauly >, IPPM Chairs >, spring-chairs@ietf.org >, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.o= rg) >, spring > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Rakesh, WG Chairs, and All, I've read the responses to my detailed comments. I don't think that only ad= ding references will solve the problems with the documents. If authors are = interested in addressing my comments, we can start working on solving them = one by one. As mentioned in previous replies, we can add references for the well-k= nown terms =93Links=94, =93Congruent Paths=94, =93SR Path=94. If you prefer= , we can define them here. For Zero checksum field, we can add a reference = for the RFC 6936 in Security section and also add some text for it. Will be= happy to work with you to address these. But I am very much concerned with the technical value of these drafts. And = here's why I feel that the proposed documents don't provide a sound technic= al solution to the task of direct loss measurement. Please find my reasonin= g explaining my opinion of the *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm: * What is being proposed in these drafts? Drafts *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm propose a new protocol to support dire= ct packet loss measurements. Note, that RFC 6374 includes a method for dire= ct loss measurement in MPLS networks that is applicable to the SR-MPLS envi= ronment. Also, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv defines an extension to RFC= 8762 STAMP, the Direct Measurement TLV, that supports the direct packet lo= ss measurement. STAMP and all its extensions are applicable in IPv6 network= s and, thus, can be used in the SRv6 domain. As mentioned in previous replies, both RFC 6374 (in Section 4.2) and I= TU Y.1731 (in Section 8.1) define stand-alone messages for collecting TX an= d RX counters for direct-mode loss measurement. TWAMP/STAMP messages define= d in the drafts are equivalent of them that take advantage of the widely de= ployed TWAMP protocol and as well this same protocol can be deployed in IPv= 4/IPv6/MPLS/SRv6/EVPN/etc. networks. I think RFC6374 for MPLS and Y.1731 make some noise here. The point i= s if we need a new direct packet loss measurement for STAMP, when STAMP alr= eady defined a Direct Measurement TLV (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra= ft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv). If current Direct Measurement TLV cannot fu= lfill some use case requirement, then how about proposing a new TLV. [Mach] Given that TWAMP does not support TLV, I assume that the discussions= are mainly about draft*-stamp-srpm. [Mach] In the case of direct packet loss measurement, draft-gandhi-ippm-sta= mp-srpm assumes that marking-based solution (which can address the packet o= ut-ordering issue) is used, hence the block number is introduced. The block= number is used to correlate the counters from the sender and reflector. Th= e current direct loss measurement TLV may just apply to the scenario withou= t packet out-ordering. To further add to this, as TWAMP Light does not have a TLV, we need = to define a stand-alone message for direct-mode LM. STAMP is just the same = message but fixed length, so this way both can interoperate and also we can= leverage the message for both of these protocols. For STAMP direct-mode LM TLV approach, some technical details are in the dr= aft as well: The STAMP message with a TLV for "direct measurement" can be used for combined Delay + Loss measurement [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv]. However, in order to use only for loss measurement purpose, it requires the node to support the delay measurement messages and support timestamp for these messages (which may also require clock synchronization for one-way delay). Furthermore, for hardware-based cou= nter collection for direct-mode loss measurement, the optional TLV based processing adds unnecessary overhead (as counters are not at well-known locations). [Mach] In addition, whether to keep it as current design or to define a new= TLV for direct loss measurement can be debatable. How the proposed method of direct packet loss is related to TWAMP light and= STAMP? There's no apparent technical relationship between *-twamp-srpm and TWAMP L= ight, or *-stamp-srpm drafts and STAMP. Drafts do not extend or re-use the = basic mechanisms defined for TWAMP-Test and/or STAMP in their respective s= pecifications. Rather than that, drafts introduce a new query-response mode= and new formats of test packets that are decisively different from the for= mats defined in respective specifications. As a result, the new protocols a= re required to use different from used by TWAMP Light tr STAMP test session= UDP port numbers on the responder. And that is another clear indication th= at the proposed mechanism represents a new protocol, neither extends TWAMP = Light and/or STAMP nor updates their specifications. As mentioned in previous replies, other than timestamp vs. counter and= it=92s format, the messages and processing of them are the same for delay = and direct-mode loss measurement. * Is there any advantage in introducing a dedicated packet format for t= he direct packet loss in STAMP comparing to using the Direct Measurement TL= V extension? Though it appears the using a dedicated packet format instead of TLV is mor= e efficient, but the dedicated for the direct loss measurement format is li= kely to precede one or even two TLVs, Node Address TLV and Path TLV, define= d in draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. As a result, processing of the new packe= t with TLVs is unlikely to be more efficient and reduce the processing dela= y, than if using the Direct Measurement TLV as defined in draft-ietf-ippm-s= tamp-option-tlv. As mentioned in previous replies, this is explained in Section 1 of th= e draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm. For link loss measurement (direct-mode), there is = no TLV required for example. For direct-mode loss measurement in SR network= s, it would typically be forward direction packet loss measurement (and not= bidirectional). * What are the potential benefits of specifying the return path in the = new test packet's Sender Control Code? Using the Sender Control Code may require the use of the additional TLV tha= t carries the return path information, Path TLV. If the ability to control = the return path is required that can be achieved by augmenting the STAMP YA= NG data model (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang) rather than including the Path T= LV in each test packet. Hence, there seem no technical requirements to intr= oduce the Sender Control Code field in the Base STAMP format defined in RFC= 8762. Per session basis between different sender nodes and this reflector no= de, some senders will request the replies in-band (e.g. for two-way mode). = Sessions are provisioned on the Sender nodes and reflector simply reflects = based on the received test-packet (e.g. for a bidirectional SR path). This = is also similar to as described Section 3.1 in RFC 6374, top of page 22. Th= ere is no need to create a such state for each session on the reflector nod= e and create a scale limitation. Recall that we are trying to avoid the sca= le limitation by eliminating the Control protocol signaling. I find some value to include the path TLV in wire. As Rakesh mentione= d, this can reduce the reflector configuration. But I am not convinced to i= ntroduce the sender control code field. It seems to me, the presence of pat= h TLV indicates the bidirectional congruent path. Vise versa. [Mach] Regarding how to specify the return path, the draft defines two ways= to achieve that, one is to use control code to direct whether the reflecte= d Test should be along the reverse path of a bidirectional path, this appli= es to both TWAMP (no TLV mechanisms) and STAMP. At the same time, in the ca= se of STAMP, it also defines the return path TLV to explicitly specify the = return path, which bring more options to specify the return path. Therefore= , I see benefit of the two ways. To further add to this, the IPPM draft simply defines protocol extens= ions. The use-cases are there in the corresponding spring drafts. For examp= le, for links, no return Path TLV is used, etc. In other words, the use-cas= es are different for the two, and there is no TLV in TWAMP anyways. Thanks, Rakesh Best regards, Mach What is the relationship between the *-srpm drafts and BFD? Some text in the *-srpm drafts suggest that the proposed method can be used= to monitor for the loss of a path continuity. That may be viewed as an alt= ernative to the BFD protocol method for the detection of a network failure.= If the discussion of Loopback mode and monitoring of liveness remain in th= e drafts, it seems logical that the BFD WG and BFD WG's Chairs be made awar= e of the proposals. I didn't take the liberty of adding BFD WG or its Chair= s. I believe that decision to be made by the Chairs of IPPM And SPRING WGs. As mentioned in previous replies, STAMP/TWAMP test messages are also u= sed today for synthetic packet loss measurement which can be also used to d= etect/monitor connection loss (performance metric). The draft simply highli= ghts this obvious metric. This is also very similar to what is described in= ITU Y.1731, Section 7.1. Thanks, Rakesh Regards, On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:10 PM Greg Mirsky > wrote: Hi Rakesh, thank you for your prompt response, much appreciated. I'll carefully read y= our responses. Looking forward to the continued discussion. Regards, Greg On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:07 PM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > wrote: Hi Greg, Thank you for your review comments. As mentioned in the IPPM session today,= the email response was sent as attachments, see archive blow: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/J503n-B2yOxF0urcHtGQKnqCRDE/ I am attaching them in word documents for the convenience. We can address y= our comments below in the next revision of the document. Thanks, Rakesh From: Greg Mirsky > Date: Friday, November 13, 2020 at 10:09 AM To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > Cc: Tommy Pauly >, IPPM Chairs >, spring-chairs@ietf.org >, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Rakesh, thank you for your response to my review. Please find my follow-up notes in= -lined below under the GIM>> tag. I hope you've found more detailed comments in the attachments (re-attached = for your convenience). I'm looking forward to reading your responses to the= detailed comments of all four drafts. Regards, Greg On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:11 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > wrote: Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and p= roviding the comments. Attached please find the email replies to your revi= ew sent earlier. The replies are copied inline below for convenience, tagg= ed with . From: ippm > Date: Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM To: Tommy Pauly > Cc: IPPM Chairs >, spring= -chairs@ietf.org >, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG community, I've reviewed these drafts and have some comments to share. Below, please f= ind my thoughts on whether these drafts can be adopted. More specific comme= nts on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft and its a= ccompanying draft targetted to the SPRING WG) are in the attached documents= . Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluated by answers= to these three questions: =95 Is the document(s) reasonably well-written I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology from RFCs 4656= /5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender = and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", ar= e used in the documents without proper definitions. Other than that both dr= afts are readable and reasonably well-written. We can change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Refl= ector if it helps. GIM>> I believe that the consistency in terminology between the core RFC an= d what is intended as its extension is not only helpful to a reader but, to= the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications. There are many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340= , 8330, etc.) and term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without definin= g them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having said tha= t, we can add a reference for them if it helps. GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. I think I need to clarify my questi= ons. While a reference to any of RFCs you've mentioned, I don't think that = will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitalized while= referenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can these be= used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object? Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using the term "congruent path" = in these drafts (using ASCII-art): C---------D / \ A----B E-----F \ / G------------H Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the network as A-B-C-D-E-F= . From the definition of "congruent" as "two figures or objects are congrue= nt if they have the same shape and size, or if one has the same shape and s= ize as the mirror image of the other", path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to the= SR tunnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to monitor a flow over t= he SR tunnel is out-of-band and will not produce any meaningful measurement= . Of course, for the case of the extensions in drafts, direct loss measurem= ent can be performed, as information collected from node F. So, this exampl= e, in my opinion, illustrates two of my concerns: * using a congruent path for an active OAM protocol may produce informa= tion that does not reflect the condition experienced by the monitored flow.= It seems that the terminology should reflect the fundamental requirement f= or using active OAM to maintain the test packets in-band with the monitored= flow. * there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band active O= AM protocol for direct packet loss measurement. As demonstrated in this exa= mple, direct packet loss can be performed using an out-of-band mechanism, e= .g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG data model. =95 Does the document solve a real problem? No, it appears that both TWAMP and STAMP drafts define a new performance = measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/TWAMP and STAMP fun= ctionality in the respective drafts, and adding the ability to collect coun= ters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find sufficient technical argument= s for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing O= AM mechanisms like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884. There is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as synth= etic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWA= MP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packet= loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a good opti= on here. GIM>> I agree with the requirements you've listed (though the SPRING WG OAM= requirements document has been abandoned and expired 3+ years ago). I believe th= at there's no sufficient technical reason to use OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for excl= usive direct packet loss measurement. =95 Is the proposed solution technically viable? There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced by= the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the propose= d solutions. About your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security s= ection in RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Secti= on as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in th= e domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other than this, I did n= ot find any other security related issue in your review. GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference sufficiently explains why the use= of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, does not create a = security risk for the protocol. Thanks, Rakesh Regards, Greg On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly > wrote: Hello IPPM, For the past few meetings, we=92ve had updates on the work in the SPRING WG= that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making exte= nsions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it= would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in = the IPPM WG. As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption for draft-gandhi= -ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. The documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 The related SPRING documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether or not y= ou believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Pl= ease provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Mo= nday, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --_000_DM6PR11MB31157E530DF68F7A1A663483BFFF0DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Thanks Tianran for the review comments. We will addr= ess the comment in the next revision of the document.

     

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

     

     

    From: Tianran Zhou <zh= outianran@huawei.com>
    Date: Thursday, November 19, 2020 at 8:28 PM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com>, Mach Chen <= ;mach.chen@huawei.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
    Cc: spring <spring@ietf.org>, IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf= .org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, Tommy Paul= y <tpauly@apple.com>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org&= gt;
    Subject: RE: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi Mach and Rakesh,

     

    Thanks for your reply.= I am now much more clear.

    But I really think the= draft should add more text on the motivation and use case.  It would = be very helpful for the audience to understand.  

    For example, one of my= question about the new direct measurement.

    There is rare word on = how to use it, how it=92s different from existing stamp direct measurement = tlv.

    Anyway, I find some va= luable extensions in these two drafts. I would like to support the adoption= and help to improve this document.

     

    Best,

    Tianran

     

     

    From: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) [mailto:rgandhi= @cisco.com]
    Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:15 PM
    To: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>; Tianran Zhou <zhoutia= nran@huawei.com>; Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
    Cc: spring <spring@ietf.org>; IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf= .org>; spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>; IET= F IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

     

    Thank you Mach and Tia= nran for your review comments.

    Please see inline repl= y with <RG2>=85

     

    From: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
    Date: Thursday, November 19, 2020 at 2:41 AM
    To: Tianran Zhou <zhout= ianran@huawei.com>, Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
    Cc: spring <spring@ietf.org>, IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@= ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, Tom= my Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>, = IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: RE: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi Ti= anran, Rakesh and Greg,

     = ;

    Pleas= e see some responses inline with [Mach]=85

     = ;

    From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tianran Zhou
    Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 1:33 PM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Greg Mirs= ky <gregimirsky@gmail.com&g= t;
    Cc: spring <spring@ietf.org>; IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@= ietf.org>; spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy= Pauly <tpauly=3D= 40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.o= rg>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

     

    Hi Rakesh and Greg,

     

    I may not very clear a= bout the context. Please allow me to jump in.

    It seems both of you m= ake some valid point.

    Please see in line wit= h <ZTR>.

     

    Cheers,

    Tianran

     

    From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi)
    Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 7:41 AM
    To: Greg Mirsky <gregimi= rsky@gmail.com>
    Cc: spring <spring@ietf.org>; IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@= ietf.org>; spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy= Pauly <tpauly=3D= 40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.o= rg>
    Subject: Re: [spring] [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-tw= amp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

     

    Hi Greg,

     

    Thank you for your rev= iew and discussions on the drafts. This will help improve the work on this = important work.

    Please see replies inl= ine with <RG>..

     

     

    From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
    Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 5:27 PM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com>
    Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IET= F IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>, spring <spring@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi Rakesh, WG Chairs, and All,

    I've read the responses to my detailed comments. I d= on't think that only adding references will solve the problems with the doc= uments. If authors are interested in addressing my comments, we can start w= orking on solving them one by one.

     

    <RG> As mentione= d in previous replies, we can add references for the well-known terms =93Li= nks=94, =93Congruent Paths=94, =93SR Path=94. If you prefer, we can define = them here. For Zero checksum field, we can add a reference for the RFC 6936 in Security section and also add some text for it. Will b= e happy to work with you to address these.

     

    But I am very much concerned with the technical valu= e of these drafts. And here's why I feel that the proposed documents don't = provide a sound technical solution to the task of direct loss measurement.&= nbsp;Please find my reasoning explaining my opinion of the *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm:

    • What is being proposed in these drafts?

    Drafts *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm propose a new p= rotocol to support direct packet loss measurements. Note, that RFC 6374 inc= ludes a method for direct loss measurement in MPLS networks that is applica= ble to the SR-MPLS environment. Also, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv defines an extension to RFC 8762 STAMP, t= he Direct Measurement TLV, that supports the direct packet loss measurement= . STAMP and all its extensions are applicable in IPv6 networks and, thus, c= an be used in the SRv6 domain.

     

    <RG> As mentione= d in previous replies, both RFC 6374 (in Section 4.2) and ITU Y.1731 (in Se= ction 8.1) define stand-alone messages for collecting TX and RX counters fo= r direct-mode loss measurement. TWAMP/STAMP messages defined in the drafts are equivalent of them that take advantage = of the widely deployed TWAMP protocol and as well this same protocol can be= deployed in IPv4/IPv6/MPLS/SRv6/EVPN/etc. networks.

     

    <ZTR> I think RFC6374 for MPLS and Y.1731 make= some noise here. The point is if we need a new direct packet loss measurem= ent for STAMP, when STAMP already defined a Direct Measurement TLV (http= s://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv). If current Direct Measurement TLV cannot fulfill some use case requirement= , then how about proposing a new TLV.

     = ;

    [Mach= ] Given that TWAMP does not support TLV, I assume that the discussions are = mainly about draft*-stamp-srpm.

     = ;

    [Mach= ] In the case of direct packet loss measurement, draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-sr= pm assumes that marking-based solution (which can address the packet out-or= dering issue) is used, hence the block number is introduced. The block number is used to correlate the counters f= rom the sender and reflector. The current direct loss measurement TLV may j= ust apply to the scenario without packet out-ordering.

     = ;

    <RG2> To further= add to this,  as TWAMP Light does not have a TLV, we need to define a= stand-alone message for direct-mode LM. STAMP is just the same message but= fixed length, so this way both can interoperate and also we can leverage the message for both of these protocols.

     

    For STAMP direct-mode LM TLV approach, some t= echnical details are in the draft as well:

     

       The STAMP message with a TLV for "direct measurem= ent" can be used for

       combined Delay + Loss measurement [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-op= tion-tlv].

       However, in order to use only for loss measurement pur= pose, it

       requires the node to support the delay measurement mes= sages and

       support timestamp for these messages (which may also r= equire clock

       synchronization for one-way delay).  Furthermore,= for hardware-based counter collection

       for direct-mode loss measurement, the optional TLV bas= ed processing

       adds unnecessary overhead (as counters are not at well= -known

       locations).

     

     

     

    [Mach= ] In addition, whether to keep it as current design or to define a new TLV = for direct loss measurement can be debatable.  

     

     

     = ;

    How the proposed method of direct packet loss is rel= ated to TWAMP light and STAMP?

    There's no apparent technical relationship between *= -twamp-srpm and TWAMP Light, or *-stamp-srpm drafts and STAMP. Drafts do no= t extend or re-use the basic mechanisms defined for  TWAMP-Test and/or= STAMP in their respective specifications. Rather than that, drafts introduce a new query-response mode and new forma= ts of test packets that are decisively different from the formats defined i= n respective specifications. As a result, the new protocols are required to= use different from used by TWAMP Light tr STAMP test session UDP port numbers on the responder. And that is= another clear indication that the proposed mechanism represents a new prot= ocol, neither extends TWAMP Light and/or STAMP nor updates their specificat= ions.

     

    <RG> As mentione= d in previous replies, other than timestamp vs. counter and it=92s format, = the messages and processing of them are the same for delay and direct-mode = loss measurement.

    • Is there any advantage in introducing a dedicated packet format for the dir= ect packet loss in STAMP comparing to using the Direct Measurement TLV exte= nsion?

    Though it appears the using a dedicated packet forma= t instead of TLV is more efficient, but the dedicated for the direct loss m= easurement format is likely to precede one or even two TLVs, Node Address T= LV and Path TLV, defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. As a result, processing of the new packet with TLVs is unlikely to be more= efficient and reduce the processing delay, than if using the Direct Measur= ement TLV as defined in draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv.

     

    <RG> As mentione= d in previous replies, this is explained in Section 1 of the draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm. = For link loss measurement (direct-mode), there is no TLV required for examp= le. For direct-mode loss measurement in SR networks, it would typically be forward direction packet loss= measurement (and not bidirectional).

     

     

    • Using the Sender Control Code may require the use of= the additional TLV that carries the return path information, Path TLV. If = the ability to control the return path is required that can be achieved by = augmenting the STAMP YANG data model (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang) rather than including the Path TLV in each te= st packet. Hence, there seem no technical requirements to introduce the Sen= der Control Code field in the Base STAMP format defined in RFC 8762.

       

      <RG> Per session= basis between different sender nodes and this reflector node, some senders= will request the replies in-band (e.g. for two-way mode). Sessions are pro= visioned on the Sender nodes and reflector simply reflects based on the received test-packet (e.g. for a bidirectiona= l SR path). This is also similar to as described Section 3.1 in RFC 6374, t= op of page 22. There is no need to create a such state for each session on = the reflector node and create a scale limitation. Recall that we are trying to avoid the scale limitation = by eliminating the Control protocol signaling.

       

      <ZTR> I find some value to include the path TL= V in wire. As Rakesh mentioned, this can reduce the reflector configuration= . But I am not convinced to introduce the sender control code field. It see= ms to me, the presence of path TLV indicates the bidirectional congruent path. Vise versa.

       = ;

      [Mach= ] Regarding how to specify the return path, the draft defines two ways to a= chieve that, one is to use control code to direct whether the reflected Tes= t should be along the reverse path of a bidirectional path, this applies to both TWAMP (no TLV mechanisms) and S= TAMP. At the same time, in the case of STAMP, it also defines the return pa= th TLV to explicitly specify the return path, which bring more options to s= pecify the return path. Therefore, I see benefit of the two ways.

       

      <RG2> To further= add to this, the IPPM draft simply defines protocol extensions. The use-ca= ses are there in the corresponding spring drafts. For example, for links, n= o return Path TLV is used, etc. In other words, the use-cases are different for the two, and there is no TLV in TWAMP anyw= ays.

       

      Thanks,

      Rakesh

       

       = ;

       = ;

      Best = regards,

      Mach<= /span>

       = ;

      What is the relationship between the *-srpm drafts a= nd BFD?

      Some text in the *-srpm drafts suggest that the prop= osed method can be used to monitor for the loss of a path continuity. = That may be viewed as an alternative to the BFD protocol method for the det= ection of a network failure. If the discussion of Loopback mode and monitoring of liveness remain in the drafts, it seems= logical that the BFD WG and BFD WG's Chairs be made aware of the proposals= . I didn't take the liberty of adding BFD WG or its Chairs. I believe that = decision to be made by the Chairs of IPPM And SPRING WGs.

       

      <RG> As mentione= d in previous replies, STAMP/TWAMP test messages are also used today for synthetic packet loss measurement which can be also used to detect/m= onitor connection loss (performance metric). The draft simply highlights th= is obvious metric. This is also very similar to what is described in ITU Y.= 1731, Section 7.1.

       

      Thanks,

      Rakesh

       

      Regards,

       

       

      On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:10 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.c= om> wrote:

      Hi Rakesh,

      thank you for your prompt response, much apprec= iated. I'll carefully read your responses. Looking forward to the continued= discussion.

       

      Regards,

      Greg

       

      On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:07 PM Rakesh Gandhi (rgan= dhi) <rgandhi@cis= co.com> wrote:

      Hi Greg,

       

      Thank you for your review comments. As mentioned in the IPPM sessi= on today, the email response was sent as attachments, see archive blow:

      https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i= ppm/J503n-B2yOxF0urcHtGQKnqCRDE/

       

      I am attaching them in word documents for the convenience. We can = address your comments below in the next revision of the document.

       

      Thanks,

      Rakesh

       

       

      From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.c= om>
      Date: Friday, November 13, 2020 at 10:09 AM
      To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com>
      Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IPPM Chairs &l= t;ippm-chairs@iet= f.org>, spring-chairs@i= etf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
      Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

      Hi Rakesh,

      thank you for your response to my review. Please find my follow-up= notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.

      I hope you've found more detailed comments in the attachments (re-= attached for your convenience). I'm looking forward to reading your respons= es to the detailed comments of all four drafts.

       

      Regards,

      Greg

       

      On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:11 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com> = wrote:

      Thank you Greg for taking time for t= horoughly reviewing the documents and providing the comments.  Attache= d please find the email replies to your review sent earlier.  The replies are copied inline below for convenience, t= agged with <RG00>.

       

       

      From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org&= gt;
      Date: Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM
      To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
      Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@i= etf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
      Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

      Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG community,

      I've reviewed these drafts and have some comments to share. Below,= please find my thoughts on whether these drafts can be adopted. More speci= fic comments on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft and its accompanying draft tar= getted to the SPRING WG) are in the attached documents.

       

      Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluat= ed by answers to these three questions:

      =B7  Is the document(s) reasonably well-written

      I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology f= rom RFCs 4656/5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms= , e.g., Links, "congruent paths", are used in the documents witho= ut proper definitions. Other than that both drafts are readable and reasona= bly well-written.

       

      <RG00> We can change Sender to= Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Reflector if it helps. 

      GIM>> I believe that the consistency in terminology between = the core RFC and what is intended as its extension is not only helpful to a= reader but, to the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications.

      <RG00> There are many existing= RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340, 8330, etc.) and term Congrue= nt Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without defining them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having said that= , we can add a reference for them if it helps.

      GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. I think I need to cl= arify my questions. While a reference to any of RFCs you've mentioned, I do= n't think that will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitalized while referenced RFCs = used the lower case form for the term "link". Can these be used i= nterchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object?

      Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using the term "co= ngruent path" in these drafts (using ASCII-art):

                        &nb= sp;    C---------D

                        &nb= sp;  /                 \<= o:p>

                  A----B    &nbs= p;              E-----F

                        &nb= sp;  \                  /=

                        &nb= sp;  G------------H

      Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the network as A-= B-C-D-E-F. From the definition of "congruent" as "two figure= s or objects are congruent if they have the same shape and size, or if one has the same shape and size as the mirror image of the= other", path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to the SR tunnel. But a packet = of an active OAM intended to monitor a flow over the SR tunnel is out-of-ba= nd and will not produce any meaningful measurement. Of course, for the case of the extensions in drafts, direct l= oss measurement can be performed, as information collected from node F. So,= this example, in my opinion, illustrates two of my concerns:

      • using a congruent path for an active OAM protocol may produce information t= hat does not reflect the condition experienced by the monitored flow. It se= ems that the terminology should reflect the fundamental requirement for usi= ng active OAM to maintain the test packets in-band with the monitored flow.
      • there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band active OAM pro= tocol for direct packet loss measurement. As demonstrated in this example, = direct packet loss can be performed using an out-of-band mechanism, e.g., S= NMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG data model.

       

      =B7  Does the document solve a real problem?

      No, it appears that  both TWAMP and STAMP drafts  d= efine a new performance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/= TWAMP and STAMP functionality in the respective drafts, and adding the abil= ity to collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find = sufficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing OAM mechanisms= like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884.

       

      <RG00> There is a requirement = to measure performance delay as well as synthetic and direct-mode packet lo= ss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packet l= oss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a good option= here.

      GIM>> I agree with the requirements you've listed (thou= gh the SPRING WG OAM requirements document has been abandoned and expired 3+ y= ears ago). I believe that there's no sufficient technical reason to us= e OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for exclusive direct packet loss measurement. 

       

      =B7  Is the proposed solution technically viable?

      There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk = introduced by the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the proposed solutions.

       

      <RG00> About your comment on z= ero checksum, this is described in Security section in RFC 6936. We will ad= d reference to this RFC in our Security Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in the = domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other than this, I did not= find any other security related issue in your review.

      GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference sufficiently expla= ins why the use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, doe= s not create a security risk for the protocol.

       

      Thanks,

      Rakesh

       

       

      Regards,

      Greg

       

       

       

       

      On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.= ietf.org> wrote:

      Hello IPPM,

       

      For the past few meetings, we=92ve had updates on the work in the = SPRING WG that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up ma= king extensions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it would be best to split the d= ocuments and track the IPPM extension work in the IPPM WG.

       

      As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption for&nbs= p;draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm.=

       

      Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether= or not you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this = email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on Monday, November 16.<= o:p>

       

      Best,

      Tommy & Ian

      _______________________________________________
      ippm mailing list
      ippm@ietf.org
      ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

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([169.254.6.220]) by DGGEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::89ed:853e:30a9:2a79%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Fri, 20 Nov 2020 18:30:03 +0800 From: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" To: "xiao.min2@zte.com.cn" CC: "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" , "fbrockne=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , "tpauly=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Re:[ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state Thread-Index: Ada+UluIfYJh1Y18RrikylOeHVlzJwAhB2sAABMe49A= Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 10:30:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB02CC3C88@dggeml529-mbx.china.huawei.com <202011201645420029542@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: <202011201645420029542@zte.com.cn> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.130] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB02CC64BBdggeml529mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for 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Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54D513A145D; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 22:34:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: ippm@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.23.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ippm@ietf.org Message-ID: <160611324128.8023.4813516913521457821@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 22:34:01 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-11.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 06:34:01 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF. Title : Data Fields for In-situ OAM Authors : Frank Brockners Shwetha Bhandari Tal Mizrahi Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-11.txt Pages : 45 Date : 2020-11-22 Abstract: In-situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (IOAM) records operational and telemetry information in the packet while the packet traverses a path between two points in the network. This document discusses the data fields and associated data types for in-situ OAM. In-situ OAM data fields can be encapsulated into a variety of protocols such as NSH, Segment Routing, Geneve, IPv6 (via extension header), or IPv4. In-situ OAM can be used to complement OAM mechanisms based on e.g. ICMP or other types of probe packets. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-11 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-11 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-11 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Nov 22 23:33:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBC743A11D1; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 23:33:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.015 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.015 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_NONELEMENT_30_40=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mAZTiy1AKnNS; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 23:33:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxhk.zte.com.cn (mxhk.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F30093A09C5; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 23:33:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxct.zte.com.cn (unknown [192.168.164.215]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTPS id 908AA6D7394DECFF4A95; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 15:33:15 +0800 (CST) Received: from mse-fl1.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.14.238]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTPS id 6EE476A0F1EACF6750A9; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 15:33:15 +0800 (CST) Received: from njxapp04.zte.com.cn ([10.41.132.203]) by mse-fl1.zte.com.cn with SMTP id 0AN7X1FR044062; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 15:33:01 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from xiao.min2@zte.com.cn) Received: from mapi (njxapp05[null]) by mapi (Zmail) with MAPI id mid201; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 15:33:01 +0800 (CST) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 15:33:01 +0800 (CST) X-Zmail-TransId: 2afd5fbb65adf30a7790 X-Mailer: Zmail v1.0 Message-ID: <202011231533015100899@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: References: 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dggeml422-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 15:43:17 +0800 From: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" To: "xiao.min2@zte.com.cn" CC: "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" , "fbrockne=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , "tpauly=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Re:[ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state Thread-Index: Ada+UluIfYJh1Y18RrikylOeHVlzJwAhB2sAABMe49AAgTcWgAAQ1bxA Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 07:43:16 +0000 Message-ID: References: C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB02CC3C88@dggeml529-mbx.china.huawei.com, 202011201645420029542@zte.com.cn, C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB02CC64BB@dggeml529-mbx.china.huawei.com <202011231533015100899@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: <202011231533015100899@zte.com.cn> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.130] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB02CE73CFdggeml529mbxchi_" 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adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state Thread-Index: AQHWwWx1+/Q/OxSZ/EKf/LY+WFe+xqnVWEvQ Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 07:52:37 +0000 Message-ID: References: C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB02CC3C88@dggeml529-mbx.china.huawei.com, 202011201645420029542@zte.com.cn, C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB02CC64BB@dggeml529-mbx.china.huawei.com <202011231533015100899@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.130] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB02CE74C0dggeml529mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-xiao-ippm-ioam-conf-state X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 07:52:56 -0000 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ippm-chairs@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org, martin.h.duke@gmail.com, draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org, Al Morton , acm@research.att.com Reply-To: last-call@ietf.org Sender: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <160624221011.1004.4337499034959566457@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 10:23:30 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Last Call: (Data Fields for In-situ OAM) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 18:23:30 -0000 The IESG has received a request from the IP Performance Measurement WG (ippm) to consider the following document: - 'Data Fields for In-situ OAM' as Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the last-call@ietf.org mailing lists by 2020-12-08. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract In-situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (IOAM) records operational and telemetry information in the packet while the packet traverses a path between two points in the network. This document discusses the data fields and associated data types for in-situ OAM. In-situ OAM data fields can be encapsulated into a variety of protocols such as NSH, Segment Routing, Geneve, IPv6 (via extension header), or IPv4. In-situ OAM can be used to complement OAM mechanisms based on e.g. ICMP or other types of probe packets. The file can be obtained via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data/ The following IPR Declarations may be related to this I-D: https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3526/ From nobody Tue Nov 24 13:30:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E0A73A0C11; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 13:30:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nTzpWt9z2GXd; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 13:30:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x129.google.com (mail-lf1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 387853A0C0E; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 13:30:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x129.google.com with SMTP id j205so141028lfj.6; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 13:30:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=fjUNX8qphKiCuEWrPCMFp/845p/wOQ28jgTco3Em8l0=; b=IFo14a24GhhXPiPZLP4W4gU2V4ZXc5DV7YVxJQbcS9aEvSC4LSLULtctJKkcf+VK0p 7bnTbDPpfQclq7mT9nRYWZdMdvuKT6qSCR3wCRSpONOsl/K0YZNzYUEuAQJq30rm/ivv VEkE1odwWuymHfLbVhI4ctZ9BrsSfR4lkoQGokyEtCZF0VlX/bQvBKdrecl1Q9ZXCo4b 0lnFSwl+n7jPZq27AV/6LQ/Ug6jT02/rMa5QFLCjOnvWSYR22fIvIKasL6YCurvC9tN+ hK4/LirIFs6t9UK3eDA2O2afjWv2qKNzPpX6vHZeIXswErXkQKqvFokg3TYy9R4cwq4R iWpg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=fjUNX8qphKiCuEWrPCMFp/845p/wOQ28jgTco3Em8l0=; b=I20un9aAbojnR+Hje79zyJqE7TrKnUASvwjJPVH/lTFMWh+i75hBEN3/HxwUO+B5hE FX/vleCnuIH+SOvo5GUzTK/41Ux77eyo34FHqMnxB7QY4OtnnDFl0vDTMsOo2V5g/81M mvAIsMOou5kywiRp8m4wG6a56wcLHOsMrELVbKrxqAoRqZnJCbxJsrE/qNleFE1QYmdQ mScEkiPzQJLU40ZowX+WXrRy0AiO6b4XYyYde3UoP9IeVbfaBqAx+pmw1K5bN6uCWucK VtjKkFVXRS7iNqHKL5oXWuLEzsQT+IgRAVV+b/dldIjZbgXatj2QyggYBkkHzGAlDrX4 Tp1g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532fXT5/RJ6N4nxDm2zmn0QCpz6jNpF0x8qapthtWO3CXL/Co+ZZ /Ael0byQsMjsiFxSv5Ggkv6TtnF9WJEeU70SUAHeO+Sf X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyz872gurwA+V6Ukz6TQk40rWjjLMYIRVla48wr4CnF41LWhagsU9Yct2GbBnRdnewnP+SLfpjoNLHXb5R34II= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:1102:: with SMTP id l2mr40723lfg.500.1606253443033; Tue, 24 Nov 2020 13:30:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160624221011.1004.4337499034959566457@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <160624221011.1004.4337499034959566457@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 13:30:31 -0800 Message-ID: To: last-call@ietf.org Cc: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" , IPPM Chairs , draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org, IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e42ea305b4e105bd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Last Call: (Data Fields for In-situ OAM) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 21:30:52 -0000 --000000000000e42ea305b4e105bd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear All, I have several comments related to the security aspects of this specification: - although this draft does not define network-specific encapsulation of IAOM data, it would the right place to introduce a generic method of IAOM data integrity protection. As noted in the Security Considerations section, IOAM trace options and collected information may become the target of a malicious attack. Protecting the integrity of data with HMAC seems like the right option. It seems reasonable that the text used to calculate HMAC includes in addition to the IOAM trace option header and an IOAM node data field that uniquely identify the source of the packet that includes IOAM trace. For example, in an IP network, the IP source address can be concatenated with the IAOM trace option header. The integrity of each IAOM node data record can also be protected by HMAC. The data record can be concatenated with, for example, the IOAM option header to form the text used in the calculation of the HMAC. While the detailed construction of the text used in HMAC calculation could be provided in network-specific documents, it seems appropriate to require the optional use of HMAC for the integrity protection of the IOAM option header and IOAM data record in this document. - I have some concern over using the Checksum Complement in the IPv6 network. RFC 6936 provided us with the most detailed analysis for using zero UDP checksum in the IPv6 network. As I understand the purpose of the Checksum Complement, its security impact is similar to the one of using zero UDP checksum. I think that the use of Checksum Complement in the IPv6 network should be explicitly discussed in the document. I'd recommend adding the reference to RFC 6936 and provide arguments supporting the use of the Checksum Complement in the IPv6 network. Regards, Greg On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 10:25 AM The IESG wrote: > > The IESG has received a request from the IP Performance Measurement WG > (ippm) > to consider the following document: - 'Data Fields for In-situ OAM' > as Proposed Standard > > The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final > comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the > last-call@ietf.org mailing lists by 2020-12-08. Exceptionally, comments > may > be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the > beginning > of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. > > Abstract > > > In-situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (IOAM) records > operational and telemetry information in the packet while the packet > traverses a path between two points in the network. This document > discusses the data fields and associated data types for in-situ OAM. > In-situ OAM data fields can be encapsulated into a variety of > protocols such as NSH, Segment Routing, Geneve, IPv6 (via extension > header), or IPv4. In-situ OAM can be used to complement OAM > mechanisms based on e.g. ICMP or other types of probe packets. > > > > > The file can be obtained via > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data/ > > > The following IPR Declarations may be related to this I-D: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3526/ > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > --000000000000e42ea305b4e105bd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Dear All,
    I have several comments=C2=A0related to the = security aspects of this specification:
    • although this dra= ft does not define network-specific encapsulation of IAOM data, it would th= e right place to introduce=C2=A0a generic method of IAOM data integrity pro= tection. As noted in the Security Considerations section, IOAM trace option= s and collected information may become the target of a malicious attack. Pr= otecting the integrity of data with HMAC seems like the right option. It se= ems reasonable that the text used to calculate HMAC includes in addition to= the IOAM trace option header and an IOAM node data field that uniquely ide= ntify the source of the packet that includes IOAM trace. For example, in an= IP network, the IP source address can be concatenated with the IAOM trace = option header. The integrity of each IAOM node data record can also be prot= ected by HMAC. The data record can be concatenated with, for example, the I= OAM option header to form the text used in the calculation of the HMAC. Whi= le the=C2=A0detailed construction of the text used in HMAC calculation coul= d be provided in=C2=A0network-specific documents, it seems appropriate to r= equire the optional use of=C2=A0HMAC for the integrity protection of=C2=A0t= he IOAM option header and IOAM data record in this document.
    • I have= some concern over using the Checksum Complement in the IPv6 network. RFC 6= 936 provided us with the most detailed analysis for using zero UDP checksum= in the IPv6 network. As I understand the purpose of the Checksum Complemen= t, its security impact is similar to the one of using zero UDP checksum. I = think that the use of Checksum Complement in the IPv6 network should be exp= licitly discussed in the document. I'd recommend adding the reference t= o RFC 6936 and provide arguments supporting the use of the Checksum Complem= ent in the IPv6 network.
    Regards,
    Greg
    <= /div>
    O= n Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 10:25 AM The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org> wrote:

    The IESG has received a request from the IP Performance Measurement WG (ipp= m)
    to consider the following document: - 'Data Fields for In-situ OAM'=
    =C2=A0 <draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-11.txt> as Proposed Standard

    The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final=
    comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
    last-call@ietf.org<= /a> mailing lists by 2020-12-08. Exceptionally, comments may
    be sent to     iesg@ietf.org= instead. In either case, please retain the beginning
    of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

    Abstract


    =C2=A0 =C2=A0In-situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (IOAM) rec= ords
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0operational and telemetry information in the packet while the = packet
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0traverses a path between two points in the network.=C2=A0 This= document
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0discusses the data fields and associated data types for in-sit= u OAM.
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0In-situ OAM data fields can be encapsulated into a variety of<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0protocols such as NSH, Segment Routing, Geneve, IPv6 (via exte= nsion
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0header), or IPv4.=C2=A0 In-situ OAM can be used to complement = OAM
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0mechanisms based on e.g.=C2=A0 ICMP or other types of probe pa= ckets.




    The file can be obtained via
    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie= tf-ippm-ioam-data/


    The following IPR Declarations may be related to this I-D:

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3526/






    _______________________________________________
    ippm mailing list
    ippm@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
    --000000000000e42ea305b4e105bd-- From nobody Wed Nov 25 01:34:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA543A132F for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 01:34:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BdTr_mAJxfIj for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 01:34:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x436.google.com (mail-wr1-x436.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::436]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 562923A132E for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 01:34:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x436.google.com with SMTP id 23so1178495wrc.8 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 01:34:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8rCvO79bdLnK/zd1VpbsXXeOX7qx390y3HYsn3INEHY=; b=Gcq9ubIi0kLygNdK5fG+ln7e2Cp/TO8c5BjOl8LDLvEJ0fkWLaXrXjv4bD6Tw5GT4O 36n0hXVaT9tcHHbFVIQ3mhybHG3ttFkAMqQ5lcjmu/6X3BgwXFu5q4mzi/jNK+d6gVYt 9pZ5SvJNoySyYKkom5WQuGf2hnUEaz8ndwfw0cDOPJtqXaJ18NaI6ZS3QGAal+UzzbbW OZnZjXHOm8aj63gWlhDVbG2QDg3DDnPtOxVaTEaQMgdA8di4Ei0SlZgYaO/CLckfJ58L v8VJw5pGFxG8wyzHOOgmwRJ65mX7FsOgFaGWlm8RlUYf5j3W0gV+vh+vMV27UA4Shgk3 /4tg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8rCvO79bdLnK/zd1VpbsXXeOX7qx390y3HYsn3INEHY=; b=R+ulCHXBbxyNVIIhExmgsEBTgyk2RSspRw0Hzm609Z62yR1F+KiFeiOVPfz3vm7ibV 3DiQYSmaADv/Yo/dqS8AOFhis/QL3wenVMtrZyHhjv360UaGz5EftXpxyw9JavJpt/PQ ExYoEPhumyfPxbOKwLVZ+cAFj7yHy+3U+DV93JgwmYImDPksVsY1t0hFIb2N0u+s6VLt 0ueZNoPvuLa6xk+WOLJmfIzNvmAmsP25/1nsO4IFCBUGrDKZfeK9XMq1Ymd6eMqYl0Jd 8SQsV0o2JJlG9RzWVk2VKtPpDtTiG0bJItSoFc8zrAW5MGgWUk18F9i/bdvkUDlLATV0 2ceg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531vRfORCx7Od7sh4XIougLn5HB5i8AYIlhhI1QdI91i6nsgonRh ShoeBtddUS16xnLr8t+p6bsVx00GXhbBp521PS8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwNwePIb7NBLvnalLaAWwoo/v/nb/uewPsrEHjq9Qhynj0xmPunA/THE4K1t/CN/EWpKp96Ri0LKFVKCJvODJI= X-Received: by 2002:adf:e444:: with SMTP id t4mr3104571wrm.152.1606296842682; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 01:34:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tal Mizrahi Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 11:33:50 +0200 Message-ID: To: Martin Duke Cc: IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Is loopback/direct export amplification worse than linear? X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 09:34:06 -0000 Hi Martin, Thanks for raising these points. We have discussed these points today at the IOAM design team meeting, and we suggest to mention these scenarios in the drafts. We believe the reader should be aware of these scenarios, but that the mitigations that are already described in the draft are sufficient at this point. Regarding issue (1) the following text is proposed to be added to the security considerations section of the flag draft: Some of the security threats that were discussed in this document may be worse in a wide area network in which there are nested IOAM domains. For example, if there are two nested IOAM domains that use loopback, then a looped-back copy in the outer IOAM domain may be forwarded through another (inner) IOAM domain and may be subject to loopback in that (inner) IOAM domain, causing the amplification to be worse than in the conventional case. Regarding issue (2), the following text is proposed for the DEX draft: The amplification effect of DEX may be worse in wide area networks in which there are multiple IOAM domains. For example, if DEX is used in IOAM domain 1 for exporting IOAM data to a receiving entity, then the exported packets of domain 1 can be forwarded through IOAM domain 2, in which they are subject to DEX. The exported packets of domain 2 may in turn be forwarded through another IOAM domain (or through domain 1), and theoretically this recursive amplification may continue infinitely. Thanks, Tal. On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 7:45 AM Martin Duke wrote= : > > I recognize that the loopback and direct export drafts discuss potential = amplification results, as a path of length N will generate N packets for ea= ch IOAM packet -- a linear relationship. As these are discussed in the draf= t with proposed mitigation, in an editorial sense the job is done. Whether = giving people this kind of foot gun is a good idea is a separate question, = but reasonable people can disagree. > > However, if I understand correctly, certain pathological combinations of = IOAM namespaces could result in amplification far worse than linear. > > 1) Loopback loops > Imagine there is an IOAM namespace that covers the path from Hop A to Hop= D. There is a separate namespace entirely contained in A-D, from hop B fro= m hop C. Both namespaces enable loopback. > A --------------------------------------------= ------------D > B---------------------------= ----C > > So a user packet is traveling from A to D. There will be (D-A) loopback p= ackets headed towards A. The (D - C) loopback packets that generated betwee= n C and D will travel through the encapsulating node at C and then trigger = further loopbacks to C. Thus the total number of packets generated by the s= ingle user packet is > (D - A) + (D - C)(C - B) > and obviousy there could be several of these smaller namespaces, or neste= d namespaces, that aggravate the amplification further. > > 2) Direct Export > Direct Export potentially has even worse properties. Suppose namespace A,= N_A hops across, direct exports to a node that is reachable across namespa= ce B. Namespace B, N_B hops across, direct exports to a node reachable acro= ss namespace A. > > Thus a single user packet sent over namespace A will generate N_A packets= that traverse Namespace B. This will, in turn, generate N_A * N_B packets = that traverse namespace A, which in turn triggers N_A ^ 2 * N_B packets, an= d so on. > > In fact, if the namespaces direct export with probability exactly,1/N_A a= nd 1/N_B, the same level of traffic will ping-pong infinitely. Any more tha= n that, and the traffic will steadily increase to infinity. If the probabil= ity is 1, the growth is exponential. > > **************** > > This analysis, if correct, raises three questions that I can think of: > - Are these corner cases plausible? > - If so, and they occurred, would the namespace administrators necessaril= y be aware of each other? If not, I'm concerned that this is unsafe to depl= oy. > - Do phenomena like this indicate that the design is brittle and putting = in some "considerations" doesn't really mitigate the dangers here? > > Martin > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From nobody Wed Nov 25 01:56:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC9643A07C0; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 01:56:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dke1epQi8sjp; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 01:56:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42b.google.com (mail-wr1-x42b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1EF503A07BD; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 01:56:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42b.google.com with SMTP id 23so1246427wrc.8; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 01:56:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qCut7MWvYETKgedf4vTlUsf3411eMFmyQEkjfP7qpd8=; b=eDZ202tJKnznZwjEt/E/yAQGafEJzzRoVFR10mjw+opd315ecO842c1hLhn0zb6vy3 8i1FyYgIrx94RdhZUqu4Km0nzk73frlEb9s24WjZPEfTdcBxi5MrJgbLte2REGOAPEtq 7owdmAKQDVG7lRYERGxLFVMyqtWklRBqdxMIlZAX9F3+rGsIlr4UaXWeJF5OFMNLWZWx wahdltdsg5ldxh0NjDPTQktKAqaEqOiPcrPx41aNbkkOaW/937t9MYpeyELQ+9r8IRBQ pivOXQ+FuMP2BwHSGn7oitx91koKYKg2lX2aUxTwBdVXc9vTcN/cuyHHSTjjgjeSPvjQ Gc6A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qCut7MWvYETKgedf4vTlUsf3411eMFmyQEkjfP7qpd8=; b=edCXdTg27m6L2ch/aRIbVffzATaFFcijY2VtQLnfXudb5iZsPAbaf5p5gqs4P0SoVl dyr0c7pB8QnMLj3Ues76f0H2WeEwtOLz7dCkdVC34R1LyOcrY9v3IyRXkonZWJj6qVIt YHIRJlJnUhw/vnn6bnaavrjulEuCaUDxQqXk5A4YnMenot1PqLs9o3shec8A2NR0JNm9 cL+it0jQWuKVraPtZ9DXACjMGoLo/Uq1/K4Tt2FKmzSRjGkFaFzkKeD1/QMG3Wb6toHQ wRSms1cYhGzA3fmIpqXQHJBqhAIBINbizYgy38Uo10SftnG5zTcdN/Ssfh+g/RLSvvOf clYQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533pKl51F+bx2/+JPYhVHjZQ4In3YLf/kR5/wNoxAMEPafobupp1 +PTHHWuzzlgGvD2VBYcZlu1UoPM4dz8hu71l020= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyWrp9hPz3JIKW2vqQWfkVVlFWXGE9LDX9fs8x6UT6K6ogz2SatW4dWAiVpL95OEvX7RYJt1nLjedVcEVUbZno= X-Received: by 2002:adf:fd06:: with SMTP id e6mr3107295wrr.206.1606298185192; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 01:56:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160624221011.1004.4337499034959566457@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Tal Mizrahi Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 11:56:13 +0200 Message-ID: To: Greg Mirsky Cc: last-call@ietf.org, "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" , IPPM Chairs , draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org, IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Last Call: (Data Fields for In-situ OAM) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 09:56:29 -0000 Hi Greg, Thanks for the comments. Please see my comments below, marked [TM]. Thanks, Tal. On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 11:30 PM Greg Mirsky wrote: > > Dear All, > I have several comments related to the security aspects of this specifica= tion: > > although this draft does not define network-specific encapsulation of IAO= M data, it would the right place to introduce a generic method of IAOM data= integrity protection. As noted in the Security Considerations section, IOA= M trace options and collected information may become the target of a malici= ous attack. Protecting the integrity of data with HMAC seems like the right= option. It seems reasonable that the text used to calculate HMAC includes = in addition to the IOAM trace option header and an IOAM node data field tha= t uniquely identify the source of the packet that includes IOAM trace. For = example, in an IP network, the IP source address can be concatenated with t= he IAOM trace option header. The integrity of each IAOM node data record ca= n also be protected by HMAC. The data record can be concatenated with, for = example, the IOAM option header to form the text used in the calculation of= the HMAC. While the detailed construction of the text used in HMAC calcula= tion could be provided in network-specific documents, it seems appropriate = to require the optional use of HMAC for the integrity protection of the IOA= M option header and IOAM data record in this document. [TM] Integrity protection is an important security consideration. Thanks to your previous comments about this issue we have added the following text to the security considerations section: In particular, these threats are applicable by compromising the integrity of IOAM data, either by maliciously modifying IOAM options in transit, or by injecting packets with maliciously generated IOAM options Specifically, implementing HMAC by hardware devices such as switches and routers in wire speed may be challenging. My feeling is that even if we decided to define an HMAC, it would end up being something that is not implemented by most vendors. I would suggest to consider a new IOAM option that incorporates an HMAC, which can be used alongside the conventional trace options. This would allow an optional integrity protection capability for those specific implementations that require it. This new option could be defined in a new draft, allowing the data draft to proceed to publication. > I have some concern over using the Checksum Complement in the IPv6 networ= k. RFC 6936 provided us with the most detailed analysis for using zero UDP = checksum in the IPv6 network. As I understand the purpose of the Checksum C= omplement, its security impact is similar to the one of using zero UDP chec= ksum. I think that the use of Checksum Complement in the IPv6 network shoul= d be explicitly discussed in the document. I'd recommend adding the referen= ce to RFC 6936 and provide arguments supporting the use of the Checksum Com= plement in the IPv6 network. [TM] The Checksum Complement is a field that simplifies the checksum update for hardware switches/routers. Unlike zero checksum, the destination *does* verify the checksum when a checksum complement is used. Therefore, in my opinion the zero checksum considerations are not relevant in this context. >From a security perspective, I do not think a Checksum Complement has any security implications. I believe it was phrased well in RFC 7820 (OWAMP/TWAMP Checksum Complement): It is important to emphasize that the scheme described in this document does not increase the protocol's vulnerability to MITM attacks; a MITM attacker who maliciously modifies a packet and its Checksum Complement is logically equivalent to a MITM attacker who modifies a packet and its UDP Checksum field. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 10:25 AM The IESG wrote= : >> >> >> The IESG has received a request from the IP Performance Measurement WG (= ippm) >> to consider the following document: - 'Data Fields for In-situ OAM' >> as Proposed Standard >> >> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits fi= nal >> comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the >> last-call@ietf.org mailing lists by 2020-12-08. Exceptionally, comments = may >> be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the begi= nning >> of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. >> >> Abstract >> >> >> In-situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (IOAM) records >> operational and telemetry information in the packet while the packet >> traverses a path between two points in the network. This document >> discusses the data fields and associated data types for in-situ OAM. >> In-situ OAM data fields can be encapsulated into a variety of >> protocols such as NSH, Segment Routing, Geneve, IPv6 (via extension >> header), or IPv4. In-situ OAM can be used to complement OAM >> mechanisms based on e.g. ICMP or other types of probe packets. >> >> >> >> >> The file can be obtained via >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data/ >> >> >> The following IPR Declarations may be related to this I-D: >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3526/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ippm mailing list >> ippm@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From nobody Wed Nov 25 09:34:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D7E23A1AE2; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 09:34:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v-2DEWAegrr1; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 09:34:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x636.google.com (mail-pl1-x636.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::636]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B495A3A1ADE; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 09:34:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x636.google.com with SMTP id x15so1459965pll.2; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 09:34:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=KPy8+kTlwg8e8rFQZ9WyURpAqGPmEKR+hFUtOSQ3gKc=; b=AOsQD3777JtEKyK3AvMNe7bpCEh4R2Bq0Yl9EbUmagGrW3nFYwKqKluWNOm4Lr374t O/6N7QnEXm7yuBxssLqdVR3G24uubJBC/q7WdGU1LLMknbGksSPSd/DjCx2jwo2kXkcc MKh92tU9AarTZ0w4MoEfKgJxqvllM3lwcT/AqwSwWj+yU+D71USGHU+x71SjGXeiL2W2 NEDuK68xKXDScqVF14qMHTkyt+LM5yEPHGxl8aN/K8HsRIqHJki29icn0aCzxdIlQp+k Fkof0f7fodESrlBBhxJOwL1SDwrWzpq9EhfuG+9POBf6gj6kJH0kf0FxtLUUghr4DmJV NEAA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=KPy8+kTlwg8e8rFQZ9WyURpAqGPmEKR+hFUtOSQ3gKc=; b=eTw8tKuMb3rcAFxVxWi9CUoajPcnZ2zPGpzxbcmc/DlQFZ7q5OKBykkHOjdCMZ0AkA DK5p2p8I0l/4aTU6loZTVcLqvZm4bE8t+Bo99+ylBQt/yQTXNnA2nKeF8XDUIzHcOw8+ 7AjiDZjejum/6I7hDpqB656iv0w/JRCn78qSgC3ZRRiwxj67f/WBLgzP8cKBueDRdies AzQVbfQOQR1kmeJU6ysB1zij5SsEisie4e2H+VBBfRDH14qNjtvrns7cJw7UreaNIDjJ tDIAfCfgOJE8/9spawybW2AdZWGt6lUx4/PKk9Byxoltcfp0zPYFC4lFv+OpJAsat3ec 0R2w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533cfUJGNuC+5esHpx1RVNVkMcPaiznW6TmY7ja4XPrcGtF2aSdF VyAtRZcXdrBmKTrtXUgomTZt3lolGopVJeAP3d0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwLZipusepfwbTCrS42S+H1QfihbWUtXGfSY7PSXYUtgSRgaD5aq58djZMEqngZIF1wRWqFJBp349W0F9vtv6c= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:7c01:b029:d8:ee2a:ce88 with SMTP id x1-20020a1709027c01b02900d8ee2ace88mr648821pll.22.1606325665785; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 09:34:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Gyan Mishra Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 12:34:14 -0500 Message-ID: To: Greg Mirsky Cc: IETF IPPM WG , James Guichard , "Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi)" , "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" , "spring@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b3ea7005b4f1d675" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] WG Adoption Call for https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 17:34:32 -0000 --000000000000b3ea7005b4f1d675 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Rakesh I have been following this thread and to help progress the discussion I would like to provide some comments in-line Gyan> Thanks Gyan On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 7:08 PM Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi Rakesh, > thank you for the response to my comments. Please find my follow-up notes > in-lined below under the GIM>> tag. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 7:33 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > wrote: > >> Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents an= d >> providing the comments. >> >> Please see replies inline with =E2=80=A6 >> >> >> >> *From: *ippm >> *Date: *Friday, November 6, 2020 at 11:18 AM >> *To: *James Guichard >> *Cc: *spring@ietf.org , ippm-chairs@ietf.org < >> ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org , >> IETF IPPM WG >> *Subject: *Re: [ippm] [spring] WG Adoption Call for >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 >> >> Dear Chairs of the SPRING and IPPM WGs, Authors, et al., >> >> I've found myself in the situation when two related drafts are in the WG >> APs in the SPRING and IPPM WG (with the possibility that expertise from = the >> third WG, BFD WG, might be desirable to review the "liveness monitoring"= ). >> Because these drafts are closely related, I've decided to combine my >> questions and comments in a single thread. I hope that would be acceptab= le >> and considered by the SPRING WG as well as IPPM WG. >> >> Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluated by >> answers to these three questions: >> >> - Is the document(s) reasonably well-written >> >> I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology from RFC >> 4656 and 5357 and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender and >> Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", are >> used in the documents without proper definitions. Other than that both >> drafts are readable and reasonably well-written. >> >> >> >> We are ok to change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to >> Session-Reflector if it helps. >> > GIM>> I believe that the consistency in terminology between the core RFC > and what is intended as its extension is not only helpful to a reader but= , > to the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications. But= I > don't think that switching the terminology will fix the fundamental issue > with the proposal. The operation that is required from the remote entity, > whether it is referred to as responder or Session-Reflector, is not defin= ed > in Appendix I of RFC 5357, nor in RFCs 4656 or 5357 itself. In my opinion= , > the behavior required, as described in the draft, cannot be characterized > as an extension of OWAMP, TWAMP, or TWAMP Light but presents a completely > new protocol that, if there's a need in the new PM OAM protocol, must be > properly defined. > Gyan> I am in complete agreement with Greg about terminology and consistency. The problem with inconsistency is that that you are not following well known normative references required to understand the specification leading to confusion and misunderstanding of the specification. The goal should be clear and concise in terminology and verbiage. > There are many existing RFCs that use term =E2=80=9CLink=E2=80=9D (e= .g. RFC 5613, >> 5340, 8330, etc.) and term =E2=80=9CCongruent Path=E2=80=9D (e.g. RFC 59= 21, 6669) without >> defining them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Havin= g >> said that, we can add a reference for them if it helps. >> > GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. I think I need to clarify my > questions. While a reference to any of RFCs you've mentioned, I don't thi= nk > that will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitalize= d > while referenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can > these be used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object? > Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using the term "congruent path= " > in these drafts (using ASCII-art): > C---------D > / \ > A----B E-----F > \ / > G------------H > Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the network as > A-B-C-D-E-F. Is A-B-G-H-E-F congruent to it? From the definition of > "congruent" as "two figures or objects are congruent if they have the sam= e > shape and size, or if one has the same shape and size as the mirror image > of the other", it looks as the path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to that SR > tunnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to monitor a flow over the > SR tunnel is out-of-band relative to that flow and will not produce any > meaningful measurement. Of course, for the case of the extensions in draf= ts > *-twamp-srpm, direct loss measurement can be performed, as information > collected from node F and packets that collect the counters are not > required to be in-band with the monitored flow. So, this example, in my > opinion, illustrates two of my concerns: > > - using a congruent path for active performance measurement, e.g., > TWAMP or TWAMP Light, may produce information that does not reflect th= e > condition experienced by the monitored flow. It seems that the termino= logy > should reflect the fundamental requirement of ensuring that active OAM= test > packets are in-band with the monitored flow. > - there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band test > packets for direct packet loss measurement. In fact, using the in-band > method for collecting in-profile counters leads to a waste of bandwidt= h, > which may have a negative impact on services that require low-latency > and/or low packet loss. As demonstrated in this example, direct packet= loss > can be performed using an out-of-band mechanism, e.g., SNMP queries, > Netconf notifications based on YANG data model. > > > >> >> - Does the document solve a real problem? >> >> No, it appears that these drafts define a new performance measurement >> protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP and TWAMP functionality and >> adding the ability to collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn= 't >> find sufficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, = for >> example, extending the existing OAM mechanisms like ICMP. >> >> Gyan> This may sound basic but is a very critical subject going down >> the same lines of clarity in verbiage so their is no misunderstanding. >> =E2=80=9CCongruent=E2=80=9D by definition means shape of an object and = if you super >> imposed two objects on top of each other they fit perfectly and the edge= s >> coincide identically. The problem with congruent is that it is based on >> the shape and that shape could be a mirror image or reflection which may >> not be exact. So when referring to a SR-TE path taken this could lead t= o >> confusion as to path taken if it=E2=80=99s the same path or congruent wh= ich is >> vague as to =E2=80=9Cexactly=E2=80=9D which path is taken where here the= re is criticality >> as to the path being referenced in terms of in-band versus out-of-band. = I >> agree that for direct in band packet loss measurement can be done via >> existing OAM mechanisme via ICMP. >> >> There is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as >> synthetic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP >> and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthe= tic >> packet loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a >> good option here. >> > GIM>> I agree with the requirements you've listed (though the SPRING WG > OAM requirements document > has > been abandoned and expired 3+ years ago). I believe that there's no > sufficient technical reason to use OWAMP/TWAMP for exclusive direct packe= t > loss measurement. > Gyan> Agreed > >> - Is the proposed solution technically viable? >> >> There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced >> by the protocol on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the >> proposed solution. >> >> About your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security >> section in RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security >> Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provision= ed >> in the domain by the operator for TWAMP. Other than this, I did not find >> any other security related issue in your review below. >> > GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference sufficiently explains why the > use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, does not crea= te > a security risk for the protocol. > Gyan> Agreed 0 UDP MIMA security threats and that you need to thorough vetting of RFC 6936. > > To summarize my review of these two drafts: >> >> - these propose a new protocol, not an update or enhancement of the >> TWAMP-like protocol; >> >> The probe and response messages defined in [RFC 5357] are used for >> delay measurement and synthetic packet loss. The direct-mode packet loss >> messages are defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm >> that >> match these delay measurement messages. As stated, >> draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm >> defines >> =E2=80=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D for TWAMP Light. >> > GIM>> I cannot find where RFC 5357 defines "the probe and response > messages". Could you give a more specific reference or provide the text > that, in your opinion, defines such messages? But I'm more concerned with > the direction of "extending" non-protocol referred to as "TWAMP Light". A= s > a contributor to BBF's TR-390, I'm have learned how different are existin= g > implementations of TWAMP Light. And that is also noted in EANTC > Multi-Vendor Interoperability 2019 white paper > . > The status of TWAMP Light is explained in RFC 8545 and I cannot see that = it > can be used as a foundation of any standard. > Gyan> I don=E2=80=99t see the probe a d response messages in TWAMP RFC = 5357 > >> - several parts of the proposed protocol, e.g., Zero UDP checksum in >> IPv6, require detailed security analysis, which is currently absent; >> >> Gyan> Agreed > This is specified in RFC 6936 Security Section. We will add referenc= e >> to this RFC in our Security Section as well. This is only specific to th= e >> UDP port locally provisioned in the domain by the operator for TWAMP. >> > GIM>> I've noted above that a simple reference does not sufficiently > explains why the use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not > decremental, does not create a security risk for the protocol. I believe > that the proposal to use zero UDP header checksum requires extensive > analysis, using the analysis provided in RFC 6936. > Gyan> Completely Agree > >> - I was surprised to find out that draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm is on >> the Informational track even though it is essential to the new protoc= ol as >> it defines its key elements >> >> This was to address your previous comment quoted as: >> >> =E2=80=9C- as I understand, the draft is applicable to TWAMP Light mode= , >> >> mentioned in the informational Appendix I in RFC 5357, not the TWAMP >> >> protocol itself. Since TWAMP Light is not a standard but its idea is >> >> described in the informational text only, I think that the >> Informational >> >> track is more appropriate for this specification.=E2=80=9D >> >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/bGTsJmJ5-eC3B-mfDCXAFiCAC3o/ >> >> Having said that, we are ok to change to PS. >> > GIM>> As explained in RFC 8545 "TWAMP Light is an idea", not a protocol. > If anyone is interested in standardizing an "extension", I'd expect that > they first define the base specification to which the extension applies. = I > might have missed the definition of TWAMP Light protocol in the draft. > Could you point to the definition, for example, of the Authenticated mode > in TWAMP Light in the draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm or RFC 5357? > Gyan> Agreed > >> - I believe that draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm should be anchored at >> IPPM WG as it does introduce the new PM protocol. >> >> The TWAMP Light extension draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm >> is >> already in IPPM WG. The SPRING draft only defines SR PM procedures. >> >> >> >> Below, please find my detailed comments, questions on these drafts: >> >> - draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm >> >> I have several questions about the relationships between this draft and >> Appendix I in RFC 5357 where the idea of a mode known as TWAMP Light has >> been mentioned. The nature of the TWAMP Light and what is required to ma= ke >> it a standard is well-explained in Section 4 of RFC 8545 >> (apologies for the long >> quote): >> >> "TWAMP Light" is an idea described in Appendix I ("TWAMP Light >> (Informative)") of [RFC5357]; TWAMP Light includes an unspecified >> control protocol combined with the TWAMP-Test protocol. In >> [RFC5357], the TWAMP Light idea was relegated to Appendix I because >> TWAMP Light failed to meet the requirements for IETF protocols (there >> are no specifications for negotiating this form of operation and no >> specifications for mandatory-to-implement security features), as >> described in Appendix A of this memo. See also [LarsAD] and >> [TimDISCUSS]. >> >> Since the idea of TWAMP Light clearly includes the TWAMP-Test >> component of TWAMP, it is considered reasonable for future systems to >> use the TWAMP-Test well-known UDP port (whose reallocated assignment >> is specified in this document). Clearly, the TWAMP Light idea >> envisions many components and communication capabilities beyond >> TWAMP-Test (implementing the security requirements, for example); >> otherwise, Appendix I of [RFC5357] would be one sentence long >> (equating TWAMP Light with TWAMP-Test only). >> >> >> >> Since we don't have an IETF document that addressed these open questions= , >> I don't think we can have a draft that proposes extensions to a >> non-standard mechanism (Appendix is for Informational material, as I >> understand it) on the Standard track. >> >> Gyan> Agreed >> >> This was to address your previous comment quoted as >> >> =E2=80=9C- as I understand, the draft is applicable to TWAMP Light mode= , >> >> mentioned in the informational Appendix I in RFC 5357, not the TWAMP >> >> protocol itself. Since TWAMP Light is not a standard but its idea is >> >> described in the informational text only, I think that the >> Informational >> >> track is more appropriate for this specification.=E2=80=9D >> >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/bGTsJmJ5-eC3B-mfDCXAFiCAC3o/ >> >> Having said that, we are ok to change to PS as you mentioned above. >> >> BTW, despite only difference of fixed vs. variable length payload i= n >> STAMP vs. TWAMP Light, the STAMP is a proposed standard as RFC 8762 (and= it >> uses the same approach of provisioning as defined in this draft). Hence= , >> security considerations for STAMP and TWAMP Light are not different. Not= e >> that both STAMP and TWAMP Light have authenticated messages defined for >> Security purpose. >> > GIM>> RFC 5357 mentioned TWAMP Light as an unauthenticated, and thus the > light, simpler, version of TWAMP-Test component of TWAMP protocol. I cann= ot > find in draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm definition of the Authenticated mo= de > of TWAMP Light. Also, I'll prefer not to refer to RFC 8762 STAMP in the > discussion of "extension" to TWAMP Light. > > Now a number of more specific questions. >> >> draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm: >> >> - In the Introduction it is stated that: >> >> The TWAMP Light [Appendix I in RFC5357] [BBF.TR-390] provides >> simplified mechanisms for active performance measurement in Customer >> IP networks by provisioning UDP paths and eliminates the need for >> control-channel signaling. >> >> I can not find where, either Appendix I or TR-390, "eliminated the need >> for control-channel signaling". Also, could you point where the referenc= ed >> documents describe "provisioning UDP paths"? >> >> >> >> The Appendix I of RFC 5357 has following text. We can reword and ma= tch the exact text if you prefer. >> >> >> >> =E2=80=9CThis example eliminates the need for the TWAMP-Control protocol= , and >> >> assumes that the Session-Reflector is configured=E2=80=9D >> >> GIM>> I think that the text you're proposing is even more confusing. It > is not clear which example the sentence is referring to. Also, what is th= e > basis for such an assumption? > >> >> - It appears that the last paragraph in the Introduction describes >> the relationship with Appendix I of RFC 5357: >> >> The procedure uses the mechanisms defined in [RFC5357] >> (TWAMP Light) and its extensions for Performance Measurement. >> >> I think that the reference must be to Appendix I, not RFC 5357. Also, >> could you please specify which extensions of TWAMP Light have been used = in >> this draft? >> >> We can add the Appendix I as reference in the next revision. >> Extensions are defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm, we can add this >> reference. >> > GIM>> The problem, in my view, is that Appendix I of RFC 5357 must be a > normative reference while it is, by its nature, an Informational document= . > >> >> - In Section 2.3 describing the reference model is noted: >> >> The probe response message is typically sent to the sender node R1. >> >> In which scenarios the reflector acts differently? How such behavior is >> related to the behavior of a TWAMP Session-Reflector, as defined in RFC >> 5357? >> >> Do you prefer we remove =E2=80=9Ctypically=E2=80=9D from the senten= ce? >> > GIM>> If that fits into the operational model of the new protocol you're > defining. > >> >> - Also in Section 2.3 a Link is mentioned as an element directly >> connecting nodes in the presented reference model. Could you clarify = what >> is a Link? Is it always a physical connection between two systems or = a >> virtual? >> >> Both, please see Section 4.1.3. =E2=80=9CLink=E2=80=9D is well know= n term used in >> many existing RFCs (please see RFC 5613, 5340, 8330). >> > GIM>> Thank you for the references. I couldn't find a definition of an > object "Link" (capitalized) but only "link" (lower case). Hence, since th= e > draft consistently uses the capitalized form, I consider it to be somethi= ng > else, something different from a link. > >> >> - In Section 3 behavior of the reflector described as >> >> ... no PM state for delay or loss measurement need to be created on t= he >> reflector node R5. >> >> That is in contradiction to the behavior of a TWAMP Session-Reflector as >> defined in RFC 5357. Could you provide a reference to an IETF standard >> where this behavior is defined? Also, how, without creating a state at t= he >> Session-Reflector, to achieve one-way delay and synthetic loss measureme= nt >> on a bidirectional SR tunnel? >> >> Gyan> Valid point >> >> Quoting the text from Appendix I in RFC 5357. We can quote the text >> as is. >> >> =E2=80=9CIn the case of TWAMP Light, the Session-Reflector does not nece= ssarily have knowledge of the session state. =E2=80=9C >> >> GIM>> By the informational nature of Appendix I, the text is not > normative. I am familiar with the implementation of TWAMP Light which doe= s > maintain the session state and thus supports one-way packet loss > measurement. If you require that the remote node does not maintain the > state, the draft must define that as part of the specifying the behavior = of > the protocol. > >> >> >> - Further, in Section 3 the selection of UDP port explained as the >> following: >> >> As specified in [RFC8545], the reflector >> supports the destination UDP port 862 for delay measurement probe >> messages by default. This UDP port however, is not used for loss >> measurement probe messages. >> >> To the best of my understanding, as one of the contributors and Editors >> of RFC 8545, it re-allocated UDP port 862 for use by a TWAMP >> Session-Reflector without excluding any type of measurement. Besides, in >> TWAMP delay and packet loss are measured in the same test session, using >> the same flow of TWAMP-Test packets. >> >> Gyan> Agreed >> >> The packet loss in existing RFC 5357 refers to synthetic loss as >> there is no support for direct-mode loss in RFC 5357. We can change the >> text to clarify as =E2=80=9CThis UDP port however, is not used for direc= t-mode >> loss measurement probe messages.=E2=80=9D >> > GIM>> I've found that there's some misconception in the draft. RFC 8545 > re-assigned UDP port 862 not for "delay measurement probe messages" but f= or > TWAMP-Test protocol. TWAMP-Test protocol, in turn, supports packet delay, > packet loss, reordering (RFC 4737 defines packet reordering metric), and > packet duplication measurement. > >> >> - Then the draft states that >> >> The sender uses the UDP port number following the guidelines specified i= n >> Section 6 in [RFC6335]. >> >> Could you point to the guidelines that a user can use when selecting a >> UDP port number of a test session? >> >> Gyan> Good point >> >> Please see section 6 in [RFC6335]. We can cite the range which will >> be the same as used in [RFC8762]. This was also discussed earlier. >> >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/ONYYhG9Y8sbiNO15bxWIRM9ymEE/ >> > GIM>> I've looked through Section 6 but I don't find anything specificall= y > applicable to this draft we're discussing. If the protocol to use UDP por= t > numbers from the Dynamic ports range, a.k.a., Private or Ephemeral, then = it > seems that stating that explicitly would be the best way. > >> >> >> - At the closing of the paragraph, we read that >> >> The number of UDP ports with PM functionality needs to be minimized du= e >> to limited hardware resources. >> >> Does a UDP port number pose PM functionality? How it is assigned to the >> port number? >> >> UDP ports are user configured for delay and direct-mode loss PM as >> described in Section 3.1. >> > GIM>> Can UDP port 862 be used? Also, requiring that the direct-loss > measurement uses port number different from the one used by a TWAMP-Test > packet, in my opinion, is another indication that this is the definition = of > a different from TWAMP Light PM OAM protocol. > >> >> - Following the above-quoted text, in Section 3 is noted: >> >> For Performance Measurement, probe query and response messages are >> sent as following: >> >> Could you clarify if the listed further procedures deviate from >> OWAMP/TWAMP or follow procedures defined in RFC 4656 and RFC 5357 for >> Session-Sender and Session-Reflector respectively? >> >> Probe messages follow the same procedure as defined in RFC 4656 and >> RFC 5357. >> > GIM>> All messages, i.e., TWAMP-Test packets as well as the defined > in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm? > >> >> - for both delay and loss measurements draft requires test packet be >> transmitted on a congruent path: >> >> the probe messages are sent on the >> congruent path of the data traffic by the sender node >> >> It is not clear what "the congruent path" means. The definition >> of congruency in geometry tells us that an object B is congruent to obje= ct >> A if it has the same shape and size, but is allowed to flip, slide or tu= rn. >> How a path can be congruent to another path? >> > Gyan> Agreed. The use of congruent in the context of pathing is confusing as the path being addressed may not be reflected accurately by the term congruent. > There are many existing RFCs that use term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC >> 5921, 6669) without defining them. I suspect it is because it is well-kn= own >> term. Having said that, we can add a reference for it if it helps reader= . >> > GIM>> I cannot assume what was the context of these RFCs. I've sketched a > network diagram above to illustrate that a "congruent path" may well lead > to out-of-band path. Is that the intention of the authors of the draft to > use this protocol out-of-band? > >> >> - The last paragraph in Section 3 refers to work on iOAM: >> >> The In-Situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (IOAM) >> mechanisms for SR-MPLS defined in [I-D.gandhi-mpls-ioam-sr] and for >> SRv6 defined in [I-D.ali-spring-ioam-srv6] are used to carry PM >> information such as timestamp in-band as part of the data packets, >> and are outside the scope of this document. >> >> Is iOAM in the scope of this specification? What are the relationships >> between iOAM and draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm? >> >> As mentioned in the draft, IOAM is outside the scope. >> > GIM>> Yes, but it appears that references to the two IOAM-related drafts > have some purpose. What is it? How are these drafts related > to draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm? > >> >> - Section 3.1 presents an example of the provisioning model but puts >> the definition of the provisioning model outside the scope. Is there = an >> accompanying specification that defines the provisioning model that c= an be >> used in multi-vendor deployment? Could that be YANG data model? What = is the >> relationship with draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang >> ? Would >> the TWAMP YANG data model be augmented? >> >> Yes, this can be Yang model. We can review >> draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang >> and add any >> missing items in a separate draft. We can also add a reference in this >> draft. >> > GIM>> I think that theremust be some discussion on how the new protocol i= s > configured. If TWAMP YANG data model can be augmented, I'd expect that > being defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm. But I couldn't find anythi= ng > about the configuration of the protocol. > >> >> - Section 4.1 states that a new message is introduced to perform the >> Loss Measurement in this protocol Why the capability of TWAMP to meas= ure >> the loss in one-way and two-way is not sufficient? >> >> Existing TWAMP messages do not support =E2=80=9Cdirect-mode=E2=80= =9D loss >> measurement. We can add =E2=80=9Cdirect-mode=E2=80=9D in the text to cla= rify. >> > GIM>> True, direct loss measurement, in fact, is not active measurement > and thus is outside the scope of Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol > (TWAMP). The direct-loss measurement is, by the definition of RFC 7799, > passive measurement method and fetching counters can be done using numero= us > methods, e.g., SNMP, Netconf. > >> >> - Section 4.1.1 requires that >> >> The Destination UDP port cannot be used as Source port, since >> the message does not have any indication to distinguish between the >> query and response message. >> >> Does that imply that the Destination UDP port used for the Delay >> measurement is unique throughout the particular domain? >> > Gyan> Good question > This is user-defined and is up to the user what UDP port to provisio= n >> in a domain. >> > GIM>> So, can user configure a port number from the User Ports range? Or, > can the same port number be used on the same system for a number of test > sessions? I find the use of UDP port numbers being underspecified. > >> >> - Section 4.1.2 of RFC 5357 does not define "the delay measurement >> message" but refers to the definition of the Session-Sender's test pa= cket >> in RFC 4656 OWAMP. Note, that OWAMP and TWAMP are using a single test >> packet format to perform both delay and packet loss measurement. >> >> Ok, we can update the text in the next revision to indicate exact >> name from the RFC 4656. We can also add text to include synthetic packet >> loss. >> > GIM>> I think that making it explicit would help. Also, that will > highlight what is being introduced by *twamp-srpm drafts is, in fact, a n= ew > protocol to perform synthetic packet loss measurement. > >> >> - Can you explain how "the DM probe query message contains the >> payload format defined in Section 4.2.1 of [RFC5357]" when the refere= nced >> section of RFC 5357 defines the format of a Session-Reflector's test = packet? >> >> We can update the text in the next revision to indicate query forma= t >> name from RFC 5357. >> > GIM>> I cannot find any reference to a query format in RFCs 4656/5357. > Could you please quote from any of these documents? > >> >> - Can clarify the applicability of RFC 6038 and the symmetrical >> packet size? Is it required? Can it be non-symmetrical? >> >> Yes. Please see section 4.1.1 and quoted below: >> >> =E2=80=9CFor symmetrical size query and response messages as defined in = [RFC6038],=E2=80=9D >> >> GIM>> RFC 6038 defines an extension to RFC 5357 for OPTIONAL use of the > symmetrical test packets. Since *-twamp-srpm proposals do not use > TWAMP-Control protocol and Appendix I in RFC 5357 tells us nothing about > that either (in part because RFC 6038 came later), I don't see that there= 's > any certainty in what is the sze of a test packet used in the direct-loss > measurement. > >> >> - Can you clarify the use of the timestamp format, NTP or PTPv2? It >> is not clear which is the default, mandatory or optional. >> >> This is same as TWAMP. There is no change. >> > GIM>> Per RFC 5357, TWAMP uses only NTP format. Is that the case for > *-twamp-srpm? > >> >> - Also, is "hardware support in Segment Routing networks" of the >> PTPv2 format required, guaranteed, or something else? >> >> Hardware timestamps are recommended for SR use-cases. We can change >> the sentence. >> > GIM>> Perhaps you can propose some text, that would be helpful. > >> >> - Section 4.1.1.1 stated that >> >> A separate user-configured >> destination UDP port is used for the delay measurement in >> authentication mode due to the different probe message format. >> >> Can that be interpreted that there could be concurrent authenticated and >> unauthenticated test sessions using this protocol? Would different >> authentication methods require using unique destination UDP port numbers= ? >> >> >> >> Yes, and Yes, and these are based on provisioning. >> > GIM>> But that requirement is far outside the TWAMP, as defined in RFC > 5357. > >> >> - Section 4.1.2 by introducing the dedicated Loss measurement packet >> format, effectively modifies the behavior defined in RFC 5357 for >> Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. But the document does not state= that. >> Can you clarify whether this specification changes the behavior of a >> Session-Sender and Session-Reflector as defined in RFC 4656 and RFC 5= 357 >> respectively for the support of packet loss measurement? >> >> The direct-mode loss defines new procedure for sender/reflector to >> collect traffic counters, as opposed to timestamp. The rest is the same = as >> RFC 4656 and 5357. >> > GIM>> I cannot agree with your statement " The rest is the same as RFC > 4656 and 5357" because the sender's direct-loss format does not have Erro= r > Estimate field, Thus, a reflected packet does not have Sender's Error > Estimate, nor Error Estimate of the reflector. And that, in my opinion, i= s > another clear indication that *twamp-srpm drafts define a new protocol, > separate from OWAMP/TWAMP. > >> >> - And a similar question about the use of the separate UDP port >> number for the authenticated of the packet loss measurement. >> - A couple of question to the following text in Section 4.1.3: >> >> The local and remote IP >> addresses of the link are used as Source and Destination Addresses. >> They can also be IPv6 link local address as probe messages are pre- >> routed. >> >> - What are the addresses of a link? >> >> I am assuming this well-known (e.g. RFC 2328). >> > GIM>> I am not familiar with the term "pre-routed". What does it mean? > >> >> - In which scenarios an IPv6 LLA can be used? >> >> I am assuming this is well-known (e.g. RFC 5613). >> > GIM>> So, LLA may be used as the source and destination addresses when > testing an SR tunnel? > >> >> - Also, could the use of a routable destination IP address be used as >> a DDOS attack vector? Consider the scenario when an attacker gener= ates >> SR-encapsulated packets with the destination IP address other than= any of >> the SR-terminating nodes. Such a packet will be routed, correct? T= hat does >> appear as a security threat, would you agree? >> >> Absolutely do not agree. It is no different than IP routed TWAMP >> packet as defined in [RFC5357]. >> > GIM>> You don't agree that the processing described cannot happen because > of laws of physics or it wouldn't happen because no one will think of tha= t? > If the latter, I think that that is security threat. > >> >> - Section 4.1.4.2 references Figure 5 that, as I understand it, >> displays the format of a probe query message. In figure two reference= s to >> RFC 5357 are provided - a section that references RFC 4656 OWAMP defi= nition >> of the Session-Sender test packet, and a section that defines the >> Session-Reflector's reflected packet. Which of the two is used for th= e >> delay measurement in the proposed protocol? >> >> The probe query packet in the Session-Sender text packet. We can >> update the name. >> >> - Section 4.2.1 states that >> >> In one-way measurement mode, the probe response message as defined in >> Figure 6 is sent back out-of-band to the sender node ... >> >> Could you clarify how the responder controls that the response packet is >> sent not in-band but out-of-band? >> >> >> >> Please refer to section 3.1 in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm. This >> is existing behaviour for out-of-band. >> > GIM>> draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm does not specify that it defines > another new protocol OWAMP Light. And it is not clear what you reference = as > "this is existing behavior". Is it to reference behavior of TWAMP test > packet? But the behavior of the TWAMP-Test protocol by itself is neither > in-band, nor out-of-band. It is the encapsulation of the TWAMP test packe= t > that makes it either in-band or out-of-band. > >> >> - How's the method described in Section 4.2.3 is different from the >> method described in RFC 8403 ? >> What is distinctly unique about the loopback mode proposed in the sec= tion? >> >> There is no mention of Loopback mode or TWAMP / RFC 5357 in RFC 840= 3. >> > GIM>> So, you believe that proposing to use the method described in RFC > 8403 for the TWAMP packet is innovation? And what are the benefits of usi= ng > the TWAMP test packet format in the Loopback mode? > >> >> - What is the rationale for setting TTL/Hop Limit fields always to >> 255 for IPv4, MPLS, and IPv6 (per Section 4.3.1)? >> >> This is as defined in Section 4.2 of RFC 5357 (Bullet 4). >> > GIM>> I believe you've misunderstood the text in RFC 5357. This bullet > specifies the behavior of a Session-Reflector. It is to try to read TTL > value of the received TWAMP test packet and copy the value in Sender TTL > field of the reflected packet. If the Session-Reflector cannot access the > TTL field, it MUST write 255 in the Sender TTL field. So, I think that my > questions still remains. > >> >> - Section 4.3.3 states that a zero-value UDP checksum may be used in >> some scenarios. RFC 8085 allows that but in very specific cases that = are >> documented in detail in Section 3.4.1. Do you believe that the case o= f this >> protocol checks all the requirements for allowing the use of Zero UDP >> checksum as specified in RFC 8085? Also, I believe that allowing the = use of >> Zero UDP checksum in some scenarios, this protocol introduces a secur= ity >> threat that must be thoroughly analyzed in the Security Consideration= s >> section. >> >> This is described in RFC 6936. It will be very specific to the UDP >> port provisioned for TWAMP. We will add reference to RFC 6936 in Securit= y >> Section. >> > GIM>> I don't think that the reference is sufficient for the > Securit Consideration. I'd expect some extended discussion on why using > zero UDP header checksum is not a security threat for *twamp-srpm protoc= ol. > >> >> - Section 8 refers to "liveness monitoring of Links and SR Paths". >> This appears as the replication of functionality provided by BFD/S-BF= D >> protocols. Is such comparison accurate? If it is, shouldn't the propo= sal be >> also reviewed by the BFD WG? >> >> TWAMP probe messages are used today for synthetic packet loss whic= h >> can also be used to detect connection loss (performance metric). The >> section simply highlights this obvious metric. >> > GIM>> Can you point to a document that has defined "TWAMP probe messages > are used today for synthetic packet loss"? Also, which document defines > loss of connectivity as a performance metric? Does *twamp-srpm proposes t= o > use the new protocol to detect the loss of path continuity? > >> >> - I found the Security Section of the proposed protocol inadequately >> terse and missing very important threats that this protocol introduce= s in >> the network. >> >> Other than referring RFC 6936 for zero checksum what else is >> missing? Otherwise it is no different than RFC 8762 (STAMP). >> > GIM>> I cannot see how RFC 8762 is relevant to *twamp-srpm drafts. The us= e > of source IP addresses, as mentioned above, appears to be another securit= y > risk introduced by *-twamp-srpm drafts. > >> >> - draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm >> >> As I understand it, the motivation for the Loss Measurement mode defined >> in this specification is to collect "in-profile" counters. Is that corre= ct? >> Do you see as essential for this mode that the query messages are in-ban= d >> with the flow being profiled? In your opinion, how using an out-of-band >> method of collecting these counters, e.g., by using ICMP multi-part mess= age >> extension per RFC 4884, could affect the accuracy comparing with the met= hod >> in this protocol? How the impact changes if extended ICMP messages are >> in-band with the profiled flow? >> >> >> >> As mentioned earlier, I am not sure extending ICMP to do PM is a >> good option here. Both TWAMP and OWAMP are widely deployed today for del= ay >> and synthetic loss measurement. >> > GIM>> What is the reason mentioning OWAMP? Are drafts *-twamp-srpm extend > RFC 4656 OWAMP as well? Also, what you see as the connection between usin= g > active measurement methods to measure packet delay and packet loss, on on= e > hand, and collecting packet counters? > >> >> - Section 3.1 introduces the new field, Sender Control Code. The >> format of the packet, as I understand it, is presented in Figure 1. W= hen >> comparing with the format of Session-Sender's test packet defined in = RFC >> 4656 OWAMP in Section 4.1.2 I've noticed that there are no MBZ fields= . Are >> these introduced by your proposal? >> >> It shows the partial message that has new field. We can update it t= o >> show the full message to avoid such confusion. >> >> - Also, it appears that the Sequence Number field in TWAMP >> Session-Sender's test packet is absent in Figure 1. Is that intention= al? >> >> It shows the partial message that has new field. We can update it t= o >> show the full message to avoid such confusion. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Rakesh >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Greg >> >> Thanks >> > Gyan > >> >> On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 5:51 AM James Guichard < >> james.n.guichard@futurewei.com> wrote: >> >> Dear WG: >> >> >> >> This message starts a 3 week WG adoption call for document >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 ending >> November 12th 2020. Please note that this document has several changes >> from v-10 that were requested by the SPRING and IPPM chairs. For this >> reason, the chairs have extended the adoption call for an additional wee= k >> to allow the WG enough time to review these changes before deciding on W= G >> adoption. >> >> >> >> Some background: >> >> >> >> Several review comments were received previously for document >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10. The >> SPRING and IPPM chairs considered those comments, and upon review of thi= s >> version of the document, determined the following: >> >> >> >> - The SPRING document should describe only the procedures relevant to >> SPRING with pointers to non-SPRING document/s that define any extensi= ons. >> Several extensions including* Control Code Field Extension for TWAMP >> Light Messages*, *Loss Measurement Query Message Extensions*, and *Lo= ss >> Measurement Response Message Extensions *were included in >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10 and >> should be removed from the SPRING document. >> - The TWAMP extensions included in >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10 should >> be described in a new document published in the IPPM WG. >> >> >> >> These conclusions were discussed with the authors of >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10 the result >> of which is the publication of the following two documents: >> >> >> >> - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11. The >> subject of this WG adoption call. >> - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00. This >> document will be progressed (if determined by the WG) within the IPPM= WG. >> >> >> >> After review of the SPRING document please indicate support (or not) for >> WG adoption to the mailing list. Please also provide comments/reasons >> for that support (or lack thereof) as silence will not be considered as >> consent. >> >> >> >> Finally, the chairs would like to thank the authors for their efforts in >> this matter. >> >> >> >> Thanks! >> >> >> >> Jim, Bruno, & Joel >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --=20 *Gyan Mishra* *Network Solutions A**rchitect * *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD --000000000000b3ea7005b4f1d675 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hi Rakesh=C2=A0
    I have been following this thread and to help prog= ress the discussion I would like to provide some comments in-line Gyan>= =C2=A0

    Thanks=C2=A0

    Gyan

    On Sun, Nov 15, 202= 0 at 7:08 PM Greg Mirsky <gregi= mirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
    =
    Hi Rakesh,
    thank you for the response to my comments.= =C2=A0Please find my follow-up notes in-lined below under the GIM>> t= ag.

    Regards,
    Greg

    On Tue, Nov 10, 2= 020 at 7:33 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com> wrote:

    Thank you Greg for taking time for tho= roughly reviewing the documents and providing the comments.

    Please see replies inline with <RG&= gt;=E2=80=A6

    =C2=A0

    From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org>= ;
    Date: Friday, November 6, 2020 at 11:18 AM
    To: James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>
    Cc: spring@ietf= .org <spring@ie= tf.org>, i= ppm-chairs@ietf.org <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, = IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ie= tf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] WG Adoption Call for h= ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11<= /u>

    Dear Chairs of the SPRING and IPPM WGs, Authors, et = al.,

    I've found myself in the situation when two rela= ted drafts are in the WG APs in the SPRING and IPPM WG (with the possibilit= y that expertise from the third WG, BFD WG, might be desirable to review th= e "liveness monitoring"). Because these drafts are closely related, I've decided to combine my questions and c= omments in a single thread. I hope that would be acceptable and considered = by the SPRING WG as well as IPPM WG.

    Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can = be evaluated=C2=A0by answers to these three questions:

    • Is the document(s) reasonably well-written

    I've got surprised that the drafts don't use= the terminology from RFC 4656 and 5357 and introduce their own terminology= for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, &= quot;congruent paths", are used in the documents without proper definitions. Other than that both drafts are readable and r= easonably well-written.

    =C2=A0

    <RG> We are ok to change Sender = to Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Reflector if it helps.

    GIM>> I believe that= the consistency in terminology between the core RFC and what is intended a= s its extension is not only helpful to a reader but, to the best of my unde= rstanding, is required for IETF specifications. But I don't think that = switching the terminology will fix the fundamental issue with the proposal.= The operation that is required from the remote entity, whether it is refer= red to as responder or Session-Reflector, is not defined in Appendix I of R= FC 5357, nor in RFCs 4656 or 5357 itself. In my opinion, the behavior requi= red, as described in the draft, cannot be characterized as an extension of = OWAMP, TWAMP, or TWAMP Light but presents a completely new protocol that, i= f there's a need in the new PM OAM protocol, must be properly defined.<= /div>

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gyan> I am in complete agreement with Greg about terminolo= gy and consistency.=C2=A0 The problem with inconsistency is that that you a= re not following well known normative references required to understand the= specification leading to confusion and misunderstanding of the specificati= on.=C2=A0 The goal should be clear and concise in terminology and verbiage.=

    <RG> There are many existing RFC= s that use term =E2=80=9CLink=E2=80=9D (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340, 8330, etc.) an= d term =E2=80=9CCongruent Path=E2=80=9D (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without defin= ing them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having said t= hat, we can add a reference for them if it helps.

    <= /div>
    GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. = I think I need to clarify my questions. While a reference to any of RFCs yo= u've mentioned, I don't think that will address my concern. In revi= ewed documents, "Link" is capitalized while referenced RFCs used = the lower case form for the term "link". Can these be used interc= hangeably? Do they refer to the same network object?
    Now I'll= try to illustrate my concern with using the term "congruent path"= ; in these drafts (using ASCII-art):
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0C---------D
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0\
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A----B=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0E-----F
    =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0\=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /
    =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0G-----= -------H
    Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the net= work as A-B-C-D-E-F. Is A-B-G-H-E-F congruent to it? From the definition of= "congruent" as "two figures or objects are congruent if the= y have the same shape and size, or if one has the same shape and size as th= e mirror image of the other", it looks as the path A-B-G-H-E-F is cong= ruent to that SR tunnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to monitor = a flow over the SR tunnel is out-of-band relative to that flow and will not= produce any meaningful measurement. Of course, for the case of the extensi= ons in drafts *-twamp-srpm, direct loss measurement can be performed, as in= formation collected from node F and packets that collect the counters are n= ot required to be in-band with the monitored flow. So, this example, in my = opinion, illustrates two of my concerns:
    • using a congruent path for active performance measurement, e.g.,= TWAMP or TWAMP Light, may produce information that does not reflect the co= ndition experienced by the monitored flow. It seems that the terminology sh= ould reflect the fundamental requirement of ensuring that active OAM test p= ackets are in-band with the monitored flow.
    • there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band test packe= ts for direct packet loss measurement. In fact, using the in-band method fo= r collecting in-profile counters leads to a waste of bandwidth, which may h= ave a negative impact on services that require low-latency and/or low packe= t loss. As demonstrated in this example, direct packet loss can be performe= d using an out-of-band mechanism, e.g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications= based on YANG data model.
    =C2=A0

    • Does the document solve a real problem?

    No, it appears that these drafts define a new perfor= mance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP and TWAMP fun= ctionality and adding the ability to collect counters of "in-profile&q= uot; packets. I couldn't find sufficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the e= xisting OAM mechanisms like ICMP.

    =C2=A0Gyan> =C2=A0This may so= und basic but is a very critical subject going down the same lines of clari= ty in verbiage so their is no misunderstanding. =C2=A0=E2=80=9CCongruent=E2= =80=9D by definition means shape of an object and if you super imposed two = objects on top of each other they fit perfectly and the edges coincide iden= tically.=C2=A0 The problem with congruent is that it is based on the shape = and that shape could be a mirror image or reflection which may not be exact= .=C2=A0 So when referring to a SR-TE path taken this could lead to confusio= n as to path taken if it=E2=80=99s the same path or congruent which is vagu= e as to =E2=80=9Cexactly=E2=80=9D which path is taken where here there is c= riticality as to the path being referenced in terms of in-band versus out-o= f-band.=C2=A0 I agree that for direct in band packet loss measurement can b= e done via existing OAM mechanisme via ICMP.

    <RG> There is a requirement to m= easure performance delay as well as synthetic and direct-mode packet loss i= n segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed f= or performance delay and synthetic packet loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a good option he= re.

    GIM>> I= agree with the=C2=A0requirements you've listed (though the=C2=A0SPRING WG OAM requirements document=C2=A0has been aban= doned and expired 3+ years ago). I believe that there's no sufficient t= echnical reason=C2=A0to use OWAMP/TWAMP for exclusive direct packet loss me= asurement.=C2=A0=C2=A0

    =
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gyan> Agreed

    • Is the proposed solution technically viable?

    There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly= the risk introduced by the protocol on network security, to comprehensivel= y evaluate the proposed solution.

    <RG> Abou= t your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security section in R= FC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in the = domain by the operator for TWAMP. Other than this, I did not find any other= security related issue in your review below.

    <= /div>
    GIM>> I don't think that a mere refe= rence sufficiently explains why the use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header= is not decremental, does not create a security risk for the protocol.
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gyan> Agreed 0 UDP MIMA security threats and tha= t you need to thorough vetting of RFC 6936.

    To summarize my review of=C2=A0these two drafts:<= /u>

    • these propose a new protocol, not an update or enhancement of the TWAMP-lik= e protocol;

    <RG> The = probe and response messages defined in [RFC 5357] are used for delay measur= ement and synthetic packet loss. The direct-mode packet loss messages are defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm that match these delay measurem= ent messages. As stated, draft-gandhi-= ippm-twamp-srpm defines =E2= =80=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D for TWAMP Light.

    GIM>> I cannot find where RFC = 5357 defines "the probe and response messages". Could you give a = more specific reference or provide the text that, in your opinion, defines = such messages? But I'm more concerned with the direction of "exten= ding" non-protocol referred to as "TWAMP Light". As a contri= butor to BBF's=C2=A0TR-390, I'm have learned how different are exis= ting implementations of TWAMP Light. And that is also noted in EANTC Multi-Vendor Interoperability 2019 whi= te paper. The status of TWAMP Light is explained in RFC 8545 and I cann= ot see that it can be used as a foundation of any standard.

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = Gyan> I don=E2=80=99t see the probe a d response messages in TWAMP RFC 5= 357

    =

    • several parts of the proposed protocol, e.g., Zero UDP checksum in IPv6, re= quire detailed security analysis, which is currently absent;<= /li>


    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gyan> Agreed=C2= =A0

    <RG> This is specif= ied in RFC 6936 Security Section. We will add reference to this RFC in our = Security Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in the domain by the operator for TWAMP.

    GIM>>=C2=A0 I&#= 39;ve noted above that a simple reference does not sufficiently explains wh= y the use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, does not = create a security risk for the protocol. I believe that the proposal to use= zero UDP header checksum requires extensive analysis, using the analysis p= rovided in RFC 6936.

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gyan> Completely Agree

    • I was surprised to find out that=C2=A0draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm is on th= e Informational track even though it is essential to the new protocol as it= defines its key elements
    <RG> This was to address=
 your previous comment quoted as:
     =E2=80=9C- as I understand, the draft is applicable t=
o TWAMP Light mode,

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 mentioned in the informati= onal Appendix I in RFC 5357, not the TWAMP

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 protocol itself. Since TWA= MP Light is not a standard but its idea is

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 described in the informati= onal text only, I think that the Informational

    =C2=A0 track is more appropriate for th= is specification.=E2=80=9D=

    https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/bGTsJmJ5-eC3B-mfDCXA= FiCAC3o/

    <RG> Havi= ng said that, we are ok to change to PS.

    =
    GIM>> As explained in RFC 8545 "TWAMP Li= ght is an idea", not a protocol. If anyone is interested in standardiz= ing an "extension", I'd expect that they first define the bas= e specification to which the extension applies. I might have missed the def= inition of TWAMP Light protocol in the draft. Could you point to the defini= tion, for example, of the Authenticated mode in TWAMP Light in the=C2=A0dra= ft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm or RFC 5357?=C2=A0

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gyan>= ; Agreed=C2=A0

    <= /p>

    • I believe that=C2=A0draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm should be anchored at IP= PM WG as it does introduce the new PM protocol.

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0

    <RG> The TWAMP Light extension draft-gandhi-ippm-tw= amp-srpm is already in IPPM WG. The SPRING draft only defines SR PM procedures= .

    =C2=A0

    Below, please find my detailed=C2=A0comments, questi= ons on these drafts:

    • draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm

    I have several questions about the relationships bet= ween this draft and Appendix I in RFC 5357 where the idea of a mode known a= s TWAMP Light has been mentioned. The nature of the TWAMP Light and what is= required to make it a standard is well-explained in Section 4 of=C2=A0RFC 8545=C2=A0(apologies for the long= quote):

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0"TWAMP Light" is an idea desc= ribed in Appendix I ("TWAMP Light
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0(Informative)") of [RFC5357]; TWAMP Light includes an uns= pecified
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0control protocol combined with the TWAMP-Test protocol.=C2=A0 = In
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC5357], the TWAMP Light idea was relegated to Appendix I be= cause
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0TWAMP Light failed to meet the requirements for IETF protocols= (there
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0are no specifications for negotiating this form of operation a= nd no
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0specifications for mandatory-to-implement security features), = as
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0described in Appendix A of this memo.=C2=A0 See also [LarsAD] = and
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0[TimDISCUSS].

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0Since the idea of TWAMP Light clearly includes the TWAMP-Test<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0component of TWAMP, it is considered reasonable for future sys= tems to
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0use the TWAMP-Test well-known UDP port (whose reallocated assi= gnment
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0is specified in this document).=C2=A0 Clearly, the TWAMP Light= idea
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0envisions many components and communication capabilities beyon= d
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0TWAMP-Test (implementing the security requirements, for exampl= e);
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0otherwise, Appendix I of [RFC5357] would be one sentence long<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0(equating TWAMP Light with TWAMP-Test only).

    =C2=A0

    Since we don't have an IETF document that addres= sed these open questions, I don't think we can have a draft that propos= es extensions to a non-standard mechanism (Appendix is for Informational ma= terial, as I understand it) on the Standard track.

    =C2=A0Gyan> Agreed=C2=A0

    <RG> This was to address=
 your previous comment quoted as
     =E2=80=9C- as I understand, the draft is applicable t=
o TWAMP Light mode,

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 mentioned in the informati= onal Appendix I in RFC 5357, not the TWAMP

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 protocol itself. Since TWA= MP Light is not a standard but its idea is

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 described in the informati= onal text only, I think that the Informational

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 track is more appropriate = for this specification.=E2=80=9D

    https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/bGTsJmJ5-eC3B-mfDCXA= FiCAC3o/

    <RG> Havi= ng said that, we are ok to change to PS as you mentioned above.

    <RG> BTW,= despite only difference of fixed vs. variable length payload in STAMP vs. = TWAMP Light, the STAMP is a proposed standard as RFC 8762 (and it uses the same approach of provisioning=C2=A0 as defined in this draft). He= nce, security considerations for STAMP and TWAMP Light are not different. N= ote that both STAMP and TWAMP Light have authenticated messages defined for= Security purpose.

    GIM>> RFC 5= 357 mentioned TWAMP Light as an unauthenticated, and thus the light, simple= r, version of TWAMP-Test component of TWAMP protocol. I cannot find in=C2= =A0draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm definition of the Authenticated mode of T= WAMP Light. Also, I'll prefer not to refer to RFC 8762 STAMP in the dis= cussion of "extension" to TWAMP Light.

    <= span style=3D"color:rgb(0,112,192)">

    Now a number of more specific questions.

    draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm:

    • In the Introduction it is stated that:

    =C2=A0 The TWAMP Light [Appendix I in RFC5357] [BBF.= TR-390] provides
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0simplified mechanisms for active performance measurement in Cu= stomer
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0IP networks by provisioning UDP paths and eliminates the need = for
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0control-channel signaling.

    I can not=C2=A0find where, either Appendix I or TR-3= 90, "eliminated the need for control-channel signaling". Also, co= uld you point where the referenced documents describe "provisioning UD= P paths"?

    =C2=A0

    <RG> The Appendix I of R=
FC 5357 has following text. We can reword and match the exact text if you p=
refer.
    <=
/u>=C2=A0
    =E2=80=9CThis example eliminates the need for the TWAM=
P-Control protocol, and
    =C2=A0=C2=A0 assumes that the Session-Reflector is con=
figured=E2=80=9D
    GIM>> I think that the text you're proposing is even more confu= sing. It is not clear which example the sentence is referring to. Also, wha= t is the basis for such an assumption?=C2=A0
    • It appears that the last paragraph in the Introduction describes the relati= onship with Appendix I of RFC 5357:

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0The procedure uses the mechanisms defin= ed in [RFC5357]
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0(TWAMP Light) and its extensions for Performance Measurement.<= u>

    I think that the reference must be to Appendix I, no= t RFC 5357. Also, could you please specify which extensions of TWAMP Light = have been used in this draft?

    <RG> We can add the Appendix I a= s reference in the next revision. Extensions are defined in draft-gandhi-ip= pm-twamp-srpm, we can add this reference.

    GIM>> The problem, in my view, is that Appen= dix I of RFC 5357 must be a normative reference while it is, by its nature,= an Informational document.=C2=A0

    <= u>

    • In Section 2.3 describing the reference model is noted:
      • <= /ul>

      =C2=A0 =C2=A0The probe response message is typically= sent to the sender node R1.

      In which scenarios the reflector acts differently? H= ow such behavior is related to the behavior of a TWAMP Session-Reflector, a= s defined in RFC 5357?

      <RG> Do you prefer we remove =E2= =80=9Ctypically=E2=80=9D from the sentence?

    GIM>> If that fits into the operational mo= del of the new protocol you're defining.=C2=A0
    =

    • Also in Section 2.3 a Link is mentioned as an element directly connecting n= odes in the presented reference model. Could you clarify what is a Link? Is= it always a physical connection between two systems or a virtual?

    <RG> Both= , please see Section 4.1.3. =E2=80=9CLink=E2=80=9D is well known term used = in many existing RFCs (please see RFC 5613, 5340, 8330).

    GIM>> Thank you for the refer= ences. I couldn't find a definition of an object "Link" (capi= talized) but only "link" (lower case). Hence, since the draft con= sistently uses the capitalized form, I consider it to be something else, so= mething different from a link.=C2=A0

    • In Section 3 behavior of the reflector described as

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0... no PM state for delay or loss measu= rement need to be created on the
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0reflector node R5.

    That is in contradiction to the behavior of a TWAMP = Session-Reflector as defined in RFC 5357. Could you provide a reference to = an IETF standard where this behavior is defined? Also, how, without creatin= g a state at the Session-Reflector, to achieve one-way delay and synthetic loss measurement on a bidirectional= SR tunnel?

    =C2=A0Gyan> Valid point=C2=A0=

    <RG> Quoting the text from Appen= dix I in RFC 5357. We can quote the text as is.

    =E2=80=9CIn the case of TWAMP Light, the Session-Refle=
ctor does not necessarily have knowledge of the session state. =E2=80=9C
    GIM>> By th= e informational nature of Appendix I, the text is not normative. I am famil= iar with the implementation of TWAMP Light which does maintain the session = state and thus supports one-way packet loss measurement. If you require tha= t the remote node does not maintain the state, the draft must define that a= s part of the specifying the behavior of the protocol.
    

    =C2=A0
    

      

    • 
Further, in Section 3 the selection of UDP port explained as the following:=

    

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0As specified in [RFC8545], the reflecto=
r
    
=C2=A0 =C2=A0supports the destination UDP port 862 for delay measurement pr=
obe
    
=C2=A0 =C2=A0messages by default.=C2=A0 This UDP port however, is not used =
for loss
    
=C2=A0 =C2=A0measurement probe messages.
    

    To the best of my understanding, as one of the contr=
ibutors and=C2=A0Editors of RFC 8545, it re-allocated UDP port 862 for use =
by a TWAMP Session-Reflector without excluding any type of measurement. Bes=
ides, in TWAMP delay and packet loss are
 measured in the same test session, using the same flow of TWAMP-Test packe=
ts.
    

    =C2=A0Gyan> Agreed=C2=A0
    

    <RG> The =
packet loss in existing RFC 5357 refers to synthetic loss as there is no su=
pport for direct-mode loss in RFC 5357. We can change the text to clarify a=
s =E2=80=9CThis UDP port
 however, is not used for direct-mode loss measurement probe messages.=E2=
=80=9D
    GIM>>= ; I've found that there's some misconception in the draft. RFC 8545= re-assigned UDP port 862 not for "delay measurement probe messages&qu= ot; but for TWAMP-Test protocol. TWAMP-Test protocol, in turn, supports pac= ket delay, packet loss, reordering (RFC 4737 defines packet reordering metr= ic), and packet duplication measurement.

    • Then the draft states that

    The sender uses the UDP port number following the gu= idelines specified in Section 6 in [RFC6335].

    Could you point to the guidelines that a user can us= e when selecting a UDP port number of a test session?

    Gyan> Good point =C2=A0

    <RG> Please see section 6 in [RF= C6335]. We can cite the range which will be the same as used in [RFC8762]. = This was also discussed earlier.

    https://mailarchive.ietf.= org/arch/msg/ippm/ONYYhG9Y8sbiNO15bxWIRM9ymEE/

    GIM>> I've looked through Section 6 bu= t I don't find anything specifically applicable to this draft we're= discussing. If the protocol to use UDP port numbers from the Dynamic ports= range, a.k.a., Private or Ephemeral, then it seems that stating that expli= citly would be the best way.=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    • At the closing of the paragraph, we read that

    =C2=A0 The number of UDP ports with PM functionality= needs to be minimized due
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0to limited hardware resources.

    Does a UDP port number pose PM functionality? How it= is assigned to the port number?

    <RG> UDP = ports are user configured for delay and direct-mode loss PM as described in= Section 3.1.

    GIM= >> Can UDP port 862 be used? Also, requiring that the direct-loss mea= surement uses port number different from the one used by a TWAMP-Test packe= t, in my opinion, is another indication that this is the definition of a di= fferent from TWAMP Light PM OAM protocol.

    • Following the above-quoted text, in Section 3 is noted:
      • <= /ul>

      =C2=A0 =C2=A0For Performance Measurement, probe quer= y and response messages are
      =C2=A0 =C2=A0sent as following:

      Could you clarify if the listed further procedures d= eviate from OWAMP/TWAMP or follow procedures defined in RFC 4656 and RFC 53= 57 for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector respectively?

      <RG> Probe messages follow the s= ame procedure as defined in RFC 4656 and RFC 5357.

    GIM>> All messages, i.e., TWAMP-Tes= t packets as well as the defined in=C2=A0draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm?=C2= =A0

    • for both delay and loss measurements draft requires test packet be transmit= ted on a congruent path:

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the probe messages are sent on = the
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 congruent path of the data traffic by the sender node<= u>

    It is not clear what "the congruent path" = means. The definition of=C2=A0congruency in geometry tells us that an objec= t B is congruent=C2=A0to object A if it has the same shape and size, but is= allowed to flip, slide or turn. How a path can be congruent to another path?


    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gyan> Agreed.=C2=A0 The use of congruent in the context of = pathing is confusing as the path being addressed may not be reflected accur= ately by the term congruent.
    <= div>

    <RG> Ther= e are many existing RFCs that use term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669)= without defining them. I suspect it is because it is well-known term. Havi= ng said that, we can add a reference for it if it helps reader.

    GI= M>> I cannot assume what was the context of these RFCs. I've sket= ched a network diagram above to illustrate=C2=A0that a "congruent path= " may well lead to out-of-band path. Is that the intention of the auth= ors of the draft to use this protocol out-of-band?
    =

    • The last paragraph in Section 3 refers to work on iOAM:
      • <= /ul>

      =C2=A0 =C2=A0The In-Situ Operations, Administration,= and Maintenance (IOAM)
      =C2=A0 =C2=A0mechanisms for SR-MPLS defined in [I-D.gandhi-mpls-ioam-sr] an= d for
      =C2=A0 =C2=A0SRv6 defined in [I-D.ali-spring-ioam-srv6] are used to carry P= M
      =C2=A0 =C2=A0information such as timestamp in-band as part of the data pack= ets,
      =C2=A0 =C2=A0and are outside the scope of this document.

      Is iOAM in the scope of this specification? What are= the relationships between iOAM and=C2=A0draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm?=

      <RG> As mentioned in the draft, = IOAM is outside the scope.

    GIM>> Yes, but it appears that references to the two IOAM-r= elated drafts have some purpose. What is it? How are these drafts related t= o=C2=A0draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm?=C2=A0

    • Section 3.1 presents an example of the provisioning model but puts the defi= nition of the provisioning model outside the scope. Is there an accompanyin= g specification that defines the provisioning model that can be used in mul= ti-vendor deployment? Could that be YANG data model? What is the relationship with=C2=A0draft-= ietf-ippm-twamp-yang? Would the TWAMP YANG data model be augmented?<= /u>

    <RG> Yes,= this can be Yang model. We can review draft-ietf-ippm-tw= amp-yang and add any missin= g items in a separate draft. We can also add a reference in this draft.

    GIM>> I think that theremust=C2=A0be some = discussion on how the new protocol is configured. If TWAMP YANG data model = can be augmented, I'd expect that being defined in=C2=A0draft-gandhi-ip= pm-twamp-srpm. But I couldn't find anything about the configuration of = the protocol.=C2=A0

    <= u>

    • Section 4.1 states that a new message is introduced to perform the Loss Mea= surement in this protocol Why the capability of TWAMP to measure the loss i= n one-way and two-way is not sufficient?

    <RG> Exis= ting TWAMP messages do not support =E2=80=9Cdirect-mode=E2=80=9D loss measu= rement. We can add =E2=80=9Cdirect-mode=E2=80=9D in the text to clarify.

    GIM>> True, d= irect loss measurement, in fact, is not active measurement and thus is outs= ide the scope of Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP). The direct-lo= ss measurement is, by the definition of RFC 7799, passive measurement metho= d and fetching counters can be done using numerous methods, e.g., SNMP, Net= conf.

    <= /p>

    • Section 4.1.1 requires that

    =C2=A0 The Destination UDP port cannot be used as So= urce port, since
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0the message does not have any indication to distinguish betwee= n the
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0query and response message.

    Does that imply that the Destination UDP port used f= or the Delay measurement is unique throughout the particular domain?


    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gyan> G= ood question=C2=A0

    <RG> This= is user-defined and is up to the user what UDP port to provision in a doma= in.

    GIM>> S= o, can user configure a port number from the User Ports range? Or, can the = same port number be used on the same system for a number of test sessions? = I find the use of UDP port numbers being underspecified.

    • Section 4.1.2 of RFC 5357 does not define "the delay measurement messa= ge" but refers to the definition of the Session-Sender's test pack= et in RFC 4656 OWAMP. Note, that OWAMP and TWAMP are using a single test pa= cket format to perform both delay and packet loss measurement.

    <RG> Ok, = we can update the text in the next revision to indicate exact name from the= RFC 4656. We can also add text to include synthetic packet loss.

    GIM>> I think that m= aking it explicit would help. Also, that will highlight what is being intro= duced by *twamp-srpm drafts is, in fact, a new protocol to perform syntheti= c packet loss measurement.=C2=A0
    =

    • Can you explain how "the DM probe query message contains the payload f= ormat defined in Section 4.2.1 of [RFC5357]" when the referenced secti= on of RFC 5357 defines the format of a Session-Reflector's test packet?=

    <RG> We c= an update the text in the next revision to indicate query format name from = RFC 5357.

    GIM>= > I cannot find any reference to a query format in RFCs 4656/5357. Could= you please quote from any of these documents?

    • Can clarify the applicability of RFC 6038 and the symmetrical packet size? = Is it required? Can it be non-symmetrical?
    <RG> Yes. Please see sec=
tion 4.1.1 and quoted below:
    =E2=80=9CFor symmetrical size query and response messages as de=
fined in [RFC6038],=E2=80=9D
    GIM>> RFC 6038 defines an extension to RFC 5357 for OPT= IONAL use of the symmetrical test packets. Since *-twamp-srpm proposals do = not use TWAMP-Control protocol and Appendix I in RFC 5357 tells us nothing = about that either (in part because RFC 6038 came later), I don't see th= at there's any certainty in what is the sze of a test packet used in th= e direct-loss measurement.=C2=A0
    =
    • Can you clarify the use of the timestamp format, NTP or PTPv2? It is not cl= ear which is the default, mandatory or optional.

    <RG> This= is same as TWAMP. There is no change.

    GIM>> Per RFC 5357, TWAMP uses only NTP format.= Is that the case for *-twamp-srpm?=C2=A0

    • Also, is "hardware support in Segment Routing networks" of the PT= Pv2 format required, guaranteed, or something else?

    <RG> Hard= ware timestamps are recommended for SR use-cases. We can change the sentenc= e.

    GIM>> Pe= rhaps you can propose some text, that would be helpful.=C2=A0

    • Section 4.1.1.1 stated that

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0A separate user-configured
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0destination UDP port is used for the delay measurement in
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0authentication mode due to the different probe message format.=

    Can that be interpreted that there could be concurre= nt authenticated and unauthenticated test sessions using this protocol? Wou= ld different authentication methods require using unique destination UDP po= rt numbers?

    =C2=A0

    <RG> Yes,= and Yes, and these are based on provisioning.

    =
    GIM>> But that requirement is far outsi= de the TWAMP, as defined in RFC 5357.

    • Section 4.1.2 by introducing the dedicated Loss measurement packet format, = effectively modifies the behavior defined in RFC 5357 for Session-Sender an= d Session-Reflector. But the document does not state that. Can you clarify = whether this specification changes the behavior of a Session-Sender and Session-Reflector as defined in RFC 4= 656 and RFC 5357 respectively for the support of packet loss measurement?

    <RG> The = direct-mode loss defines new procedure for sender/reflector to collect traf= fic counters, as opposed to timestamp. The rest is the same as RFC 4656 and= 5357.

    GIM>>= ; I cannot agree with your statement " The rest is the same as RFC 4656 and 5357" because the sender's di= rect-loss format does not have Error Estimate field, Thus, a reflected pack= et does not have Sender's Error Estimate, nor Error Estimate of the ref= lector. And that, in my opinion, is another clear indication that *twamp-sr= pm drafts define a new protocol, separate from OWAMP/TWAMP.

    • And a similar question about the use of the separate UDP port number for th= e authenticated of the packet loss measurement.
    • A couple of question to the following text in Section 4.1.3:<= /li>

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0The local and remote IP
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0addresses of the link are used as Source and Destination Addre= sses.
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0They can also be IPv6 link local address as probe messages are= pre-
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0routed.

      • What are the addresses of a link?

    <RG> I am= assuming this well-known (e.g. RFC 2328).

    GIM>> I am not familiar with the term "= ;pre-routed". What does it mean?=C2=A0

      • In which scenarios an IPv6 LLA can be used?

    <RG> I am= assuming this is well-known (e.g. RFC 5613).

    <= /div>
    GIM>> So, LLA may be used as the source = and destination addresses when testing an SR tunnel?=C2=A0

      • Also, could the use of a routable destination IP address be used as a DDOS = attack vector? Consider the scenario when an attacker generates SR-encapsul= ated packets with the destination IP address other than any of the SR-termi= nating nodes. Such=C2=A0a=C2=A0packet will be routed, correct? That does appear as a security threat, would you agree= ?

    <RG> Abso= lutely do not agree. It is no different than IP routed TWAMP packet as defi= ned in [RFC5357].

    GIM>> You don't agree that the processing described cannot happe= n because of laws of physics or it wouldn't happen because no one will = think of that? If the latter, I think that that is security threat.

    • Section 4.1.4.2 references Figure 5 that, as I understand it, displays the= =C2=A0format of a probe query message. In figure two references to RFC 5357= are provided - a section that references RFC 4656 OWAMP definition of the = Session-Sender test packet, and a section that defines the Session-Reflector's reflected packet. Which of the tw= o is used for the delay measurement in the proposed protocol?=

    <RG> The = probe query packet in the Session-Sender text packet. We can update the nam= e.

    • Section 4.2.1 states that

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0In one-way measurement mode, the probe = response message as defined in
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0Figure 6 is sent back out-of-band to the sender node ...

    Could you clarify how the responder controls that th= e response packet is sent not in-band but out-of-band?

    =C2=A0

    <RG> Plea= se refer to section 3.1 in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm.=C2=A0 This is exis= ting behaviour for out-of-band.

    GIM>>=C2=A0draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm does not speci= fy that it defines another new protocol OWAMP Light. And it is not clear wh= at you reference as "this is existing behavior". Is it to referen= ce behavior of TWAMP test packet? But the behavior of the TWAMP-Test protoc= ol by itself is neither in-band, nor out-of-band. It is the encapsulation o= f the TWAMP test packet that makes it either in-band or out-of-band.=C2=A0<= /div>

    • Section 4.3.3 states that a zero-value UDP checksum may be used in some sce= narios. RFC 8085 allows that but in very specific cases that are documented= in detail in Section 3.4.1. Do you believe that the case of this protocol = checks all the requirements for allowing the use of Zero UDP checksum as specified in RFC 8085? Also, I be= lieve that allowing the use of Zero UDP checksum in some scenarios, this pr= otocol introduces a security threat that must be thoroughly analyzed in the= Security Considerations section.

    <RG> This= is described in RFC 6936. It will be very specific to the UDP port provisi= oned for TWAMP. We will add reference to RFC 6936 in Security Section.

    GIM>> I don'= ;t think that the reference is sufficient for the Securit=C2=A0Consideratio= n. I'd expect some extended discussion on why using zero UDP header che= cksum is not a security threat for *twamp-srpm=C2=A0 protocol.

    • Section 8 refers to "liveness monitoring of Links and SR Paths". = This appears as the replication of functionality provided by BFD/S-BFD prot= ocols. Is such comparison accurate? If it is, shouldn't the proposal be= also reviewed by the BFD WG?

    <RG> TWAM= P=C2=A0 probe messages are used today for synthetic packet loss which can a= lso be used to detect connection loss (performance metric). The section simply highlights this obvious metric.

    <= /div>
    GIM>> Can you point to a document that has def= ined "TWAMP=C2=A0 probe messages are used today for synthetic packet l= oss"? Also, which document defines loss of connectivity as a performan= ce metric? Does *twamp-srpm proposes to use the new protocol to detect the = loss of path continuity?

    =

    • I found the Security Section of the proposed protocol inadequately terse an= d missing very important threats that this protocol introduces in the netwo= rk.

    <RG> Othe= r than referring RFC 6936 for zero checksum what else is missing? Otherwise= it is no different than RFC 8762 (STAMP).

    GIM>> I cannot see how RFC 8762 is relevant= to *twamp-srpm drafts. The use of source IP addresses, as mentioned above,= appears to be another security risk introduced by *-twamp-srpm drafts.=C2= =A0

    • draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm

    As I understand it, the motivation for the Loss Meas= urement mode defined in this specification is to collect "in-profile&q= uot; counters. Is that correct? Do you see as essential for this mode that = the query messages are in-band with the flow being profiled? In your opinion, how using an out-of-band method of collec= ting these counters, e.g., by using ICMP multi-part=C2=A0message extension = per RFC 4884, could affect the accuracy comparing with the method in this p= rotocol? How the impact changes if extended ICMP messages are in-band with the profiled flow?

    =C2=A0

    <RG> As m= entioned earlier, I am not sure extending ICMP to do PM = is a good option here. Both TWAMP and OWAMP are widely deployed today for d= elay and synthetic loss measurement.

    GIM>> What is the reason mentioning OWAMP? Are dr= afts *-twamp-srpm extend RFC 4656 OWAMP as well? Also, what you see as the = connection between using active measurement methods to measure packet delay= and packet loss, on one hand, and collecting packet counters?
    <= /div>

    • Section 3.1 introduces the new field, Sender Control Code. The format of th= e packet, as I understand it, is presented in Figure 1. When comparing with= the format of Session-Sender's test packet defined in RFC 4656 OWAMP i= n Section 4.1.2 I've noticed that there are no MBZ fields. Are these introduced by your proposal?

    <RG> It s= hows the partial message that has new field. We can update it to show the f= ull message to avoid such confusion.

    • Also, it appears that the Sequence Number field in TWAMP Session-Sender'= ;s test packet is absent in Figure 1. Is that intentional?

    <RG> It s= hows the partial message that has new field. We can update it to show the f= ull message to avoid such confusion.

    Thanks,<= u>

    Rakesh

    =C2=A0

    Regards,

    Greg

    =C2=A0Thanks=C2=A0


    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gyan=C2=A0<= /div>

    =C2=A0

    On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 5:51 AM James Guichard <<= a href=3D"mailto:james.n.guichard@futurewei.com" target=3D"_blank">james.n.= guichard@futurewei.com> wrote:

    Dear WG:

    =C2=A0

    This message starts a 3 week WG= adoption call for document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr= aft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 ending Nove= mber 12th 2020. Please note that this document has several changes from v-10 that were requested by the SPR= ING and IPPM chairs. For this reason, the chairs have extended the adoption= call for an additional week to allow the WG enough time to review these ch= anges before deciding on WG adoption.

    =C2=A0

    Some background: =C2=A0<= u>

    =C2=A0

    Several review comments were re= ceived previously for document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr= aft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10. The SPRING and IPPM chairs considered those comments, and upon revie= w of this version of the document, determined the following:

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    These conclusions were discussed with the authors of= =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr= aft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10 the result of which is the publication of the following two documents:<= /u>

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    After review of the SPRING document please indicate = support (or not) for WG adoption to the mailing list. Please also provide comments/reasons for that support = (or lack thereof) as silence will not be considered as consent.

    =C2=A0

    Finally, the chairs would like = to thank the authors for their efforts in this matter.=

    =C2=A0

    Thanks!

    =C2=A0

    Jim, Bruno, & Joel

    =C2=A0

    _______________________________________________
    spring mailing list
    spring@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

    =C2=A0

    _______________________________________________
    spring mailing list
    spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
    --
    --000000000000b3ea7005b4f1d675-- From nobody Wed Nov 25 10:22:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 939573A1530 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 10:22:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UvFUJQ5xCpdh for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 10:22:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd35.google.com (mail-io1-xd35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 35AAF3A1526 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 10:22:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd35.google.com with SMTP id o8so3090095ioh.0 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 10:22:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8Js7gi1keztAa+XAVXpJu407oFMu8GqpJKe53sbAaa8=; b=mEPfPwrDdu6bSeeGXlwITBodlQQevOY/uZxTh3GeFpC/g3kWW8UPMWTqxs2YYmTuER aXdQW5oUpRYAe1NNmYNmYYi5oaCMAYh5PdEDSH/eHudq1rUa5VkyxE5oKXZgqXMXpm29 FCKIWoGJIBbA4inRO46ZziRXTX2rk5IlFqlmEW1oROXWg7yFA8poaIpx0LzW1s0uXipT x1nAesNpYqvn3W4wIY4A3kEg/EEiVa1Mj80U8t+VJ7349ewMmCdMk7cRmfqnZ3ZhQKpY BkosbfO8b/bw7ICf0xXDS88LHJWt/xB7WKZQ2UsAwC32U6QcarMHU7RMl8iApSEVcwTb Nxgw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8Js7gi1keztAa+XAVXpJu407oFMu8GqpJKe53sbAaa8=; b=qcA0/own5zNg62l4oux5zyKkm4vKnowvYC6EgOfvKbbryCymdeKE4K+GBsgU84Dbun p1wjfHuHWYh5iDkVdQDOSI3wUlkfQOfWGhsqAJ+YaMt1PGFJArXgEvify0rKGrWs3dHN DxSlpvZo9HdgbwOJZZKubojOkLOAuxuktWzRY/gd2qrFE/WGbkU/LoDPhclCnFnhdPtY UacV6uvYakY2xPBeT2f9pnvzvYLJ/o1hgTq4CbbOD9gmW58MsSmJ5ufAsvcaSV5giLH9 4/qER04+ZZ0w9IxYdcDHxhssrA0CxSLaaUVcv+T/h5li57CvQ7oDa9Po1hnGaG3uwt17 V6dw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533tBdP4IDoYo/V8eBN/j10Knhc23oxVJgFMPYFuif+BjT0FGYU5 8HF7F7wwgHQdNGEmj23aIS4s3uZP5mtwULOMWn0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx48CZg2vPD2A2MOhkihAoQx3ks5qppQ5R2ooOz7Ex3Q4XzH0l0Z+iaS5djs9PuLqTN7ZuNAmT5mndmdIfnIRM= X-Received: by 2002:a02:4:: with SMTP id 4mr4458403jaa.121.1606328543311; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 10:22:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Martin Duke Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 10:22:14 -0800 Message-ID: To: Tal Mizrahi Cc: IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000377c0c05b4f282b3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Is loopback/direct export amplification worse than linear? X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 18:22:29 -0000 --000000000000377c0c05b4f282b3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Tal, I believe this text adequately describes my concerns, so you've done what you can in terms of updating the draft. Thanks. I am increasingly skeptical that protocols with these dynamics are a good thing to deploy in the internet, regardless of what we put in the Security Considerations. I would certainly like to hear the opinions of other people in the WG on this topic. Martin On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 1:34 AM Tal Mizrahi wrote: > Hi Martin, > > Thanks for raising these points. > We have discussed these points today at the IOAM design team meeting, > and we suggest to mention these scenarios in the drafts. > We believe the reader should be aware of these scenarios, but that the > mitigations that are already described in the draft are sufficient at > this point. > > Regarding issue (1) the following text is proposed to be added to the > security considerations section of the flag draft: > > Some of the security threats that were discussed in this document may > be worse in a wide area network in which there are nested IOAM > domains. For example, if there are two nested IOAM domains that use > loopback, then a looped-back copy in the outer IOAM domain may be > forwarded through another (inner) IOAM domain and may be subject to > loopback in that (inner) IOAM domain, causing the amplification to be > worse than in the conventional case. > > > Regarding issue (2), the following text is proposed for the DEX draft: > > The amplification effect of DEX may be worse in wide area networks in > which there are multiple IOAM domains. For example, if DEX is used in > IOAM domain 1 for exporting IOAM data to a receiving entity, then the > exported packets of domain 1 can be forwarded through IOAM domain 2, > in which they are subject to DEX. The exported packets of domain 2 may > in turn be forwarded through another IOAM domain (or through domain > 1), and theoretically this recursive amplification may continue > infinitely. > > Thanks, > Tal. > > On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 7:45 AM Martin Duke > wrote: > > > > I recognize that the loopback and direct export drafts discuss potential > amplification results, as a path of length N will generate N packets for > each IOAM packet -- a linear relationship. As these are discussed in the > draft with proposed mitigation, in an editorial sense the job is done. > Whether giving people this kind of foot gun is a good idea is a separate > question, but reasonable people can disagree. > > > > However, if I understand correctly, certain pathological combinations of > IOAM namespaces could result in amplification far worse than linear. > > > > 1) Loopback loops > > Imagine there is an IOAM namespace that covers the path from Hop A to > Hop D. There is a separate namespace entirely contained in A-D, from hop B > from hop C. Both namespaces enable loopback. > > A > --------------------------------------------------------D > > > B-------------------------------C > > > > So a user packet is traveling from A to D. There will be (D-A) loopback > packets headed towards A. The (D - C) loopback packets that generated > between C and D will travel through the encapsulating node at C and then > trigger further loopbacks to C. Thus the total number of packets generated > by the single user packet is > > (D - A) + (D - C)(C - B) > > and obviousy there could be several of these smaller namespaces, or > nested namespaces, that aggravate the amplification further. > > > > 2) Direct Export > > Direct Export potentially has even worse properties. Suppose namespace > A, N_A hops across, direct exports to a node that is reachable across > namespace B. Namespace B, N_B hops across, direct exports to a node > reachable across namespace A. > > > > Thus a single user packet sent over namespace A will generate N_A > packets that traverse Namespace B. This will, in turn, generate N_A * N_B > packets that traverse namespace A, which in turn triggers N_A ^ 2 * N_B > packets, and so on. > > > > In fact, if the namespaces direct export with probability exactly,1/N_A > and 1/N_B, the same level of traffic will ping-pong infinitely. Any more > than that, and the traffic will steadily increase to infinity. If the > probability is 1, the growth is exponential. > > > > **************** > > > > This analysis, if correct, raises three questions that I can think of: > > - Are these corner cases plausible? > > - If so, and they occurred, would the namespace administrators > necessarily be aware of each other? If not, I'm concerned that this is > unsafe to deploy. > > - Do phenomena like this indicate that the design is brittle and putting > in some "considerations" doesn't really mitigate the dangers here? > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ippm mailing list > > ippm@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > --000000000000377c0c05b4f282b3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --000000000000377c0c05b4f282b3-- From nobody Wed Nov 25 13:00:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 342533A1D85 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 13:00:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=futurewei.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vYjWw-q17I_v for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 13:00:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM12-MW2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam12on2133.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.244.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FFB93A1D83 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 13:00:38 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=ahJXr3hwBJNGEZo4rFK72EKnU1ulBX8WhkrYWcBHP6ZMUubvsHT+kR66WgY4CaRPNiGbIVYZIRUDgnoeBzWj7ly3b6dkeEELJRVAxrJ2w/Eq3a+hjG3PtdhSN1TXJdVrsQQmngN6pfF5cC0ESXudEsVSxQquOGguKBcI5pH8ZwUgQPb1HxCK39VERGgn2TkLDf+t7fDZl/0aSUUgY4EPMoyZVjuvboaIMpA/9i2yMkGWe9Ro4hCRvO/ZOgqc4EIGzRMHDbrzytnPh+5+/HPMx5Hm3ZFGC5YxqGvCTpwQ79q30mvZIUXBHDj1bD0z/4adFkXhfA9WIQepiaTaSEaLag== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=1Py70/WPRk+BVqu8Q8zk60pAM1PUZalIyMh71g55gk0=; b=Xz9trnGgFSTSGSd2R07WaYVTqMFtdPmp1lKsd8wQlSuEmgc6W473BbMR7LxTmgksOWF9+viGENHbCnC+zLxxHHn6TjTb/HjhJZjPH1WBWme0NrDAfrEm5V9RLqXT4papTXAGTK2S+gaC4ClPrBKhBR/PWyiVGUw1PsEP3LautlQIbnBFfF+SeIyl0AKXKS0gD5qaSnV7tWVELRhWH1lqnlReoacvxfEf1zvfvq0S0ZdMVXFu9frfPvK6nBq4rITsZ19gfrzOXNeBQym2QMC+DSawsCMUhjqLAtCIPzcG6i62+u4rCVC6DtfIkJnI2pHozCRPF8plv5sEZa6E/lfrOg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=futurewei.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=futurewei.com; dkim=pass header.d=futurewei.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=Futurewei.com; s=selector2; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=1Py70/WPRk+BVqu8Q8zk60pAM1PUZalIyMh71g55gk0=; b=PbuEhbgmHuZdF4gognJ2OmfEVs1jN3odDphOwTPYPsZ0gKuYusziG5ENE/gX6oGxh+Ek8bPd4raxI/bXInmkwQDmq4oZx/XiNrjsuU1qp62qSwQGt7uFLelOj3VFY79VhybqOI3R/PRtQn8QvTHrSNW8wpfwRPDN1kNDenpCpT8= Received: from DM6PR13MB2762.namprd13.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:5:13c::13) by DM5PR13MB1740.namprd13.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:3:12f::18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3611.19; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 21:00:36 +0000 Received: from DM6PR13MB2762.namprd13.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a1c9:9c66:9b62:e314]) by DM6PR13MB2762.namprd13.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a1c9:9c66:9b62:e314%3]) with mapi id 15.20.3611.020; Wed, 25 Nov 2020 21:00:35 +0000 From: Haoyu Song To: Martin Duke , Tal Mizrahi CC: IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: [ippm] Is loopback/direct export amplification worse than linear? 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X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 21:49:37 -0000 --000000000000ff3cef05b4f56690 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Haoyu, Let's assume that Namespace A and B are completely independent entities. Further, assume that the ingress points to A and B are both pretty liberally attached DEX flags to traffic. So if a single user packet traverses A, it will generate N_A DEX packets that will be routed through B. If these meet the criteria for B to mark for DEX, there will be N_A * N_B packets that then traverse A. If these meet the A criteria, then N_A^2 * N_B packets will go through B, and so on. I certainly agree that this is a corner case. And yet, it appears that two totally independent entities could create this catastrophic loop. It seems like a design flaw! Now maybe the DEX packets are in a format that MUST NOT be DEXed. That would mostly solve the problem, except that those packets might be tunneled over something that once again triggers DEX. On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 1:00 PM Haoyu Song wrote= : > Hi Martin, > > > > I don=E2=80=99t understand the DEX amplification scenario. We don=E2=80= =99t specify the > export packet format yet but conceivably those packets are not like the > original packets and just for the purpose of data export, so they shouldn= =E2=80=99t > trigger any data collection and export anymore. If I misunderstood > something, could you please clarify your concerns? Thanks! > > > > Best regards, > > Haoyu > > > > *From:* ippm *On Behalf Of * Martin Duke > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 25, 2020 10:22 AM > *To:* Tal Mizrahi > *Cc:* IETF IPPM WG > *Subject:* Re: [ippm] Is loopback/direct export amplification worse than > linear? > > > > Hi Tal, > > > > I believe this text adequately describes my concerns, so you've done what > you can in terms of updating the draft. Thanks. > > > > I am increasingly skeptical that protocols with these dynamics are a good > thing to deploy in the internet, regardless of what we put in the Securit= y > Considerations. I would certainly like to hear the opinions of other peop= le > in the WG on this topic. > > > > Martin > > > > On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 1:34 AM Tal Mizrahi > wrote: > > Hi Martin, > > Thanks for raising these points. > We have discussed these points today at the IOAM design team meeting, > and we suggest to mention these scenarios in the drafts. > We believe the reader should be aware of these scenarios, but that the > mitigations that are already described in the draft are sufficient at > this point. > > Regarding issue (1) the following text is proposed to be added to the > security considerations section of the flag draft: > > Some of the security threats that were discussed in this document may > be worse in a wide area network in which there are nested IOAM > domains. For example, if there are two nested IOAM domains that use > loopback, then a looped-back copy in the outer IOAM domain may be > forwarded through another (inner) IOAM domain and may be subject to > loopback in that (inner) IOAM domain, causing the amplification to be > worse than in the conventional case. > > > Regarding issue (2), the following text is proposed for the DEX draft: > > The amplification effect of DEX may be worse in wide area networks in > which there are multiple IOAM domains. For example, if DEX is used in > IOAM domain 1 for exporting IOAM data to a receiving entity, then the > exported packets of domain 1 can be forwarded through IOAM domain 2, > in which they are subject to DEX. The exported packets of domain 2 may > in turn be forwarded through another IOAM domain (or through domain > 1), and theoretically this recursive amplification may continue > infinitely. > > Thanks, > Tal. > > On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 7:45 AM Martin Duke > wrote: > > > > I recognize that the loopback and direct export drafts discuss potentia= l > amplification results, as a path of length N will generate N packets for > each IOAM packet -- a linear relationship. As these are discussed in the > draft with proposed mitigation, in an editorial sense the job is done. > Whether giving people this kind of foot gun is a good idea is a separate > question, but reasonable people can disagree. > > > > However, if I understand correctly, certain pathological combinations o= f > IOAM namespaces could result in amplification far worse than linear. > > > > 1) Loopback loops > > Imagine there is an IOAM namespace that covers the path from Hop A to > Hop D. There is a separate namespace entirely contained in A-D, from hop = B > from hop C. Both namespaces enable loopback. > > A > --------------------------------------------------------D > > > B-------------------------------C > > > > So a user packet is traveling from A to D. There will be (D-A) loopback > packets headed towards A. The (D - C) loopback packets that generated > between C and D will travel through the encapsulating node at C and then > trigger further loopbacks to C. Thus the total number of packets generate= d > by the single user packet is > > (D - A) + (D - C)(C - B) > > and obviousy there could be several of these smaller namespaces, or > nested namespaces, that aggravate the amplification further. > > > > 2) Direct Export > > Direct Export potentially has even worse properties. Suppose namespace > A, N_A hops across, direct exports to a node that is reachable across > namespace B. Namespace B, N_B hops across, direct exports to a node > reachable across namespace A. > > > > Thus a single user packet sent over namespace A will generate N_A > packets that traverse Namespace B. This will, in turn, generate N_A * N_B > packets that traverse namespace A, which in turn triggers N_A ^ 2 * N_B > packets, and so on. > > > > In fact, if the namespaces direct export with probability exactly,1/N_A > and 1/N_B, the same level of traffic will ping-pong infinitely. Any more > than that, and the traffic will steadily increase to infinity. If the > probability is 1, the growth is exponential. > > > > **************** > > > > This analysis, if correct, raises three questions that I can think of: > > - Are these corner cases plausible? > > - If so, and they occurred, would the namespace administrators > necessarily be aware of each other? If not, I'm concerned that this is > unsafe to deploy. > > - Do phenomena like this indicate that the design is brittle and puttin= g > in some "considerations" doesn't really mitigate the dangers here? > > > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ippm mailing list > > ippm@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > > --000000000000ff3cef05b4f56690 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hello Haoyu,

    Let's assume that Name= space A and B are completely independent entities. Further, assume that the= ingress points to A and B are both pretty liberally attached DEX flags to = traffic.

    So if a single user packet traverses A, i= t will generate N_A DEX packets that will be routed through B. If these mee= t the criteria for B to mark for DEX, there will be N_A * N_B packets that = then traverse A. If these meet the A criteria, then N_A^2 * N_B packets wil= l go through B, and so on.

    I certainly agree that = this is a corner case. And yet, it appears that two totally independent ent= ities could create this catastrophic loop. It seems like a design flaw! Now= maybe the DEX packets are in a format that MUST NOT be DEXed. That would m= ostly solve the problem, except that those packets might be tunneled over s= omething that once again triggers DEX.=C2=A0

    Hi Tal,

    I believe this text adequately = describes my concerns, so you've done what you can in terms of updating= the draft. Thanks.

    I am increasingly skeptical th= at protocols with these dynamics are a good thing to deploy in the internet= , regardless of what we put in the Security Considerations. I would certain= ly=C2=A0like to hear the opinions of other people in the WG on this topic.<= /div>

    Martin

    <= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 1:34 AM Tal Mi= zrahi <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmai= l.com> wrote:
    Hi Martin,

    Thanks for raising these points.
    We have discussed these points today at the IOAM design team meeting,
    and we suggest to mention these scenarios in the drafts.
    We believe the reader should be aware of these scenarios, but that the
    mitigations that are already described in the draft are sufficient at
    this point.

    Regarding issue (1) the following=C2=A0 text is proposed to be added to the=
    security considerations section of the flag draft:

    Some of the security threats that were discussed in this document may
    be worse in a wide area network in which there are nested IOAM
    domains. For example, if there are two nested IOAM domains that use
    loopback, then a looped-back copy in the outer IOAM domain may be
    forwarded through another (inner) IOAM domain and may be subject to
    loopback in that (inner) IOAM domain, causing the amplification to be
    worse than in the conventional case.


    Regarding issue (2), the following text is proposed for the DEX draft:

    The amplification effect of DEX may be worse in wide area networks in
    which there are multiple IOAM domains. For example, if DEX is used in
    IOAM domain 1 for exporting IOAM data to a receiving entity, then the
    exported packets of domain 1 can be forwarded through IOAM domain 2,
    in which they are subject to DEX. The exported packets of domain 2 may
    in turn be forwarded through another IOAM domain (or through domain
    1), and theoretically this recursive amplification may continue
    infinitely.

    Thanks,
    Tal.

    On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 7:45 AM Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com> wrote: >
    > I recognize that the loopback and direct export drafts discuss potenti= al amplification results, as a path of length N will generate N packets for= each IOAM packet -- a linear relationship. As these are discussed in the d= raft with proposed mitigation, in an editorial sense the job is done. Wheth= er giving people this kind of foot gun is a good idea is a separate questio= n, but reasonable people can disagree.
    >
    > However, if I understand correctly, certain pathological combinations = of IOAM namespaces could result in amplification far worse than linear.
    >
    > 1) Loopback loops
    > Imagine there is an IOAM namespace that covers the path from Hop A to = Hop D. There is a separate namespace entirely contained in A-D, from hop B = from hop C. Both namespaces enable loopback.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A ---------------------------------------------= -----------D
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 B-------------------------------C
    >
    > So a user packet is traveling from A to D. There will be (D-A) loopbac= k packets headed towards A. The (D - C) loopback packets that generated bet= ween C and D will travel through the encapsulating node at C and then trigg= er further loopbacks to C. Thus the total number of packets generated by th= e single user packet is
    > (D - A) + (D - C)(C - B)
    > and obviousy there could be several of these smaller namespaces, or ne= sted namespaces, that aggravate the amplification further.
    >
    > 2) Direct Export
    > Direct Export potentially has even worse properties. Suppose namespace= A, N_A hops across, direct exports to a node that is reachable across name= space B. Namespace B, N_B hops across, direct exports to a node reachable a= cross namespace A.
    >
    > Thus a single user packet sent over namespace A will generate N_A pack= ets that traverse Namespace B. This will, in turn, generate N_A * N_B packe= ts that traverse namespace A, which in turn triggers N_A ^ 2 * N_B packets,= and so on.
    >
    > In fact, if the namespaces direct export with probability exactly,1/N_= A and 1/N_B, the same level of traffic will ping-pong infinitely. Any more = than that, and the traffic will steadily increase to infinity. If the proba= bility is 1, the growth is exponential.
    >
    > ****************
    >
    > This analysis, if correct, raises three questions that I can think of:=
    > - Are these corner cases plausible?
    > - If so, and they occurred, would the namespace administrators necessa= rily be aware of each other? If not, I'm concerned that this is unsafe = to deploy.
    > - Do phenomena like this indicate that the design is brittle and putti= ng in some "considerations" doesn't really mitigate the dange= rs here?
    >
    > Martin
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > ippm mailing list
    > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
    On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 1= :00 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com> wrote:

    Hi Martin,

    =C2=A0

    I don=E2=80=99t understand the DEX amplification sce= nario. We don=E2=80=99t specify the export packet format yet but conceivabl= y those packets are not like the original packets and just for the purpose = of data export, so they shouldn=E2=80=99t trigger any data collection and export anymore. If I misunderstood something, could you ple= ase clarify your concerns? Thanks!

    =C2=A0

    Best regards,

    Haoyu

    =C2=A0

    From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of = Martin Duke
    Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2020 10:22 AM
    To: Tal Mizrahi <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com>
    Cc: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Is loopback/direct export amplification worse th= an linear?

    =C2=A0

    Hi Tal,

    =C2=A0

    I believe this text adequately describes my concerns= , so you've done what you can in terms of updating the draft. Thanks.

    =C2=A0

    I am increasingly skeptical that protocols with thes= e dynamics are a good thing to deploy in the internet, regardless of what w= e put in the Security Considerations. I would certainly=C2=A0like to hear t= he opinions of other people in the WG on this topic.

    =C2=A0

    Martin

    =C2=A0

    On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 1:34 AM Tal Mizrahi <tal.mizrahi.phd@= gmail.com> wrote:

    Hi Martin,

    Thanks for raising these points.
    We have discussed these points today at the IOAM design team meeting,
    and we suggest to mention these scenarios in the drafts.
    We believe the reader should be aware of these scenarios, but that the
    mitigations that are already described in the draft are sufficient at
    this point.

    Regarding issue (1) the following=C2=A0 text is proposed to be added to the=
    security considerations section of the flag draft:

    Some of the security threats that were discussed in this document may
    be worse in a wide area network in which there are nested IOAM
    domains. For example, if there are two nested IOAM domains that use
    loopback, then a looped-back copy in the outer IOAM domain may be
    forwarded through another (inner) IOAM domain and may be subject to
    loopback in that (inner) IOAM domain, causing the amplification to be
    worse than in the conventional case.


    Regarding issue (2), the following text is proposed for the DEX draft:

    The amplification effect of DEX may be worse in wide area networks in
    which there are multiple IOAM domains. For example, if DEX is used in
    IOAM domain 1 for exporting IOAM data to a receiving entity, then the
    exported packets of domain 1 can be forwarded through IOAM domain 2,
    in which they are subject to DEX. The exported packets of domain 2 may
    in turn be forwarded through another IOAM domain (or through domain
    1), and theoretically this recursive amplification may continue
    infinitely.

    Thanks,
    Tal.

    On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 7:45 AM Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com> wrote: >
    > I recognize that the loopback and direct export drafts discuss potenti= al amplification results, as a path of length N will generate N packets for= each IOAM packet -- a linear relationship. As these are discussed in the d= raft with proposed mitigation, in an editorial sense the job is done. Whether giving people this kind of foot g= un is a good idea is a separate question, but reasonable people can disagre= e.
    >
    > However, if I understand correctly, certain pathological combinations = of IOAM namespaces could result in amplification far worse than linear.
    >
    > 1) Loopback loops
    > Imagine there is an IOAM namespace that covers the path from Hop A to = Hop D. There is a separate namespace entirely contained in A-D, from hop B = from hop C. Both namespaces enable loopback.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A ---------------------------------------------= -----------D
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 B-------------------------------C
    >
    > So a user packet is traveling from A to D. There will be (D-A) loopbac= k packets headed towards A. The (D - C) loopback packets that generated bet= ween C and D will travel through the encapsulating node at C and then trigg= er further loopbacks to C. Thus the total number of packets generated by the single user packet is
    > (D - A) + (D - C)(C - B)
    > and obviousy there could be several of these smaller namespaces, or ne= sted namespaces, that aggravate the amplification further.
    >
    > 2) Direct Export
    > Direct Export potentially has even worse properties. Suppose namespace= A, N_A hops across, direct exports to a node that is reachable across name= space B. Namespace B, N_B hops across, direct exports to a node reachable a= cross namespace A.
    >
    > Thus a single user packet sent over namespace A will generate N_A pack= ets that traverse Namespace B. This will, in turn, generate N_A * N_B packe= ts that traverse namespace A, which in turn triggers N_A ^ 2 * N_B packets,= and so on.
    >
    > In fact, if the namespaces direct export with probability exactly,1/N_= A and 1/N_B, the same level of traffic will ping-pong infinitely. Any more = than that, and the traffic will steadily increase to infinity. If the proba= bility is 1, the growth is exponential.
    >
    > ****************
    >
    > This analysis, if correct, raises three questions that I can think of:=
    > - Are these corner cases plausible?
    > - If so, and they occurred, would the namespace administrators necessa= rily be aware of each other? If not, I'm concerned that this is unsafe = to deploy.
    > - Do phenomena like this indicate that the design is brittle and putti= ng in some "considerations" doesn't really mitigate the dange= rs here?
    >
    > Martin
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > ippm mailing list
    > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you Gyan and Greg for your review comments and discussions. Please se= e inline replies with =85 From: Gyan Mishra Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2020 at 12:34 PM To: Greg Mirsky Cc: IETF IPPM WG , James Guichard , Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) , ippm-chairs@ietf.org <= ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org , spr= ing@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] [ippm] WG Adoption Call for https://tools.ietf.org/ht= ml/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 Hi Rakesh I have been following this thread and to help progress the discussion I wou= ld like to provide some comments in-line Gyan> Thanks Gyan On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 7:08 PM Greg Mirsky > wrote: Hi Rakesh, thank you for the response to my comments. Please find my follow-up notes i= n-lined below under the GIM>> tag. Regards, Greg On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 7:33 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > wrote: Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and p= roviding the comments. Please see replies inline with =85 From: ippm > Date: Friday, November 6, 2020 at 11:18 AM To: James Guichard > Cc: spring@ietf.org >, ippm-chairs@ietf.org >, spring-chairs@ietf.org >,= IETF IPPM WG > Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] WG Adoption Call for https://tools.ietf.org/ht= ml/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 Dear Chairs of the SPRING and IPPM WGs, Authors, et al., I've found myself in the situation when two related drafts are in the WG AP= s in the SPRING and IPPM WG (with the possibility that expertise from the t= hird WG, BFD WG, might be desirable to review the "liveness monitoring"). B= ecause these drafts are closely related, I've decided to combine my questio= ns and comments in a single thread. I hope that would be acceptable and con= sidered by the SPRING WG as well as IPPM WG. Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluated by answers= to these three questions: * Is the document(s) reasonably well-written I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology from RFC 4656 = and 5357 and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender and Session= -Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", are used in t= he documents without proper definitions. Other than that both drafts are re= adable and reasonably well-written. We are ok to change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-= Reflector if it helps. GIM>> I believe that the consistency in terminology between the core RFC an= d what is intended as its extension is not only helpful to a reader but, to= the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications. But I d= on't think that switching the terminology will fix the fundamental issue wi= th the proposal. The operation that is required from the remote entity, whe= ther it is referred to as responder or Session-Reflector, is not defined in= Appendix I of RFC 5357, nor in RFCs 4656 or 5357 itself. In my opinion, th= e behavior required, as described in the draft, cannot be characterized as = an extension of OWAMP, TWAMP, or TWAMP Light but presents a completely new = protocol that, if there's a need in the new PM OAM protocol, must be proper= ly defined. Gyan> I am in complete agreement with Greg about terminology and consist= ency. The problem with inconsistency is that that you are not following we= ll known normative references required to understand the specification lead= ing to confusion and misunderstanding of the specification. The goal shoul= d be clear and concise in terminology and verbiage. Agree. Will address the terms from RFC 5357 in the next revision. There are many existing RFCs that use term =93Link=94 (e.g. RFC 5613, = 5340, 8330, etc.) and term =93Congruent Path=94 (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) witho= ut defining them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Havin= g said that, we can add a reference for them if it helps. GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. I think I need to clarify my questi= ons. While a reference to any of RFCs you've mentioned, I don't think that = will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitalized while= referenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can these be= used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object? Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using the term "congruent path" = in these drafts (using ASCII-art): C---------D / \ A----B E-----F \ / G------------H Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the network as A-B-C-D-E-F= . Is A-B-G-H-E-F congruent to it? From the definition of "congruent" as "tw= o figures or objects are congruent if they have the same shape and size, or= if one has the same shape and size as the mirror image of the other", it l= ooks as the path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to that SR tunnel. But a packet o= f an active OAM intended to monitor a flow over the SR tunnel is out-of-ban= d relative to that flow and will not produce any meaningful measurement. Of= course, for the case of the extensions in drafts *-twamp-srpm, direct loss= measurement can be performed, as information collected from node F and pac= kets that collect the counters are not required to be in-band with the moni= tored flow. So, this example, in my opinion, illustrates two of my concerns= : =B7 using a congruent path for active performance measurement, e.g.= , TWAMP or TWAMP Light, may produce information that does not reflect the c= ondition experienced by the monitored flow. It seems that the terminology s= hould reflect the fundamental requirement of ensuring that active OAM test = packets are in-band with the monitored flow. =B7 there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band te= st packets for direct packet loss measurement. In fact, using the in-band m= ethod for collecting in-profile counters leads to a waste of bandwidth, whi= ch may have a negative impact on services that require low-latency and/or l= ow packet loss. As demonstrated in this example, direct packet loss can be = performed using an out-of-band mechanism, e.g., SNMP queries, Netconf notif= ications based on YANG data model. * Does the document solve a real problem? No, it appears that these drafts define a new performance measurement proto= col for the purpose of combining OWAMP and TWAMP functionality and adding t= he ability to collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find suf= ficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example= , extending the existing OAM mechanisms like ICMP. Gyan> This may sound basic but is a very critical subject going down the = same lines of clarity in verbiage so their is no misunderstanding. =93Cong= ruent=94 by definition means shape of an object and if you super imposed tw= o objects on top of each other they fit perfectly and the edges coincide id= entically. The problem with congruent is that it is based on the shape and= that shape could be a mirror image or reflection which may not be exact. = So when referring to a SR-TE path taken this could lead to confusion as to = path taken if it=92s the same path or congruent which is vague as to =93exa= ctly=94 which path is taken where here there is criticality as to the path = being referenced in terms of in-band versus out-of-band. I agree that for = direct in band packet loss measurement can be done via existing OAM mechani= sme via ICMP. Ok, we will find an appropriate term for =93sending packets on the sa= me path as data traffic=94. Extending ICMP for direct-mode loss measurement is outside the scope = of this draft. But good to see the agreement for the direct in band packet = loss measurement to be done (albeit by some other means). There is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as synthet= ic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWAMP= protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packet l= oss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a good option= here. GIM>> I agree with the requirements you've listed (though the SPRING WG OAM= requirements document has been abandoned and expired 3+ years ago). I believe th= at there's no sufficient technical reason to use OWAMP/TWAMP for exclusive = direct packet loss measurement. Gyan> Agreed There is definitely a need to do direct-mode loss measurement in IP/S= R networks, as RFC 6374 mechanisms are for MPLS networks. Note that there w= as an attempt to extend BFD for direct-mode loss measurement for this purpo= se using RFC 6374 loss measurement message (see draft-mirmin-bfd-extended-0= 3). * Is the proposed solution technically viable? There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced by= the protocol on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the proposed= solution. About your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security sec= tion in RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Section= as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in the = domain by the operator for TWAMP. Other than this, I did not find any other= security related issue in your review below. GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference sufficiently explains why the use= of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, does not create a = security risk for the protocol. Gyan> Agreed 0 UDP MIMA security threats and that you need to thorough = vetting of RFC 6936. Yes, will add in the next revision. Hope we can work together on need= ed text. To summarize my review of these two drafts: * these propose a new protocol, not an update or enhancement of the TWA= MP-like protocol; The probe and response messages defined in [RFC 5357] are used for del= ay measurement and synthetic packet loss. The direct-mode packet loss messa= ges are defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm that match these delay measurement mes= sages. As stated, draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm defines =93extensions=94 for TWAMP Ligh= t. GIM>> I cannot find where RFC 5357 defines "the probe and response messages= ". Could you give a more specific reference or provide the text that, in yo= ur opinion, defines such messages? But I'm more concerned with the directio= n of "extending" non-protocol referred to as "TWAMP Light". As a contributo= r to BBF's TR-390, I'm have learned how different are existing implementati= ons of TWAMP Light. And that is also noted in EANTC Multi-Vendor Interopera= bility 2019 white paper. The status of TWAMP Light is explain= ed in RFC 8545 and I cannot see that it can be used as a foundation of any = standard. Gyan> I don=92t see the probe a d response messages in TWAMP RFC 5357 Agree to use term test-packet from RFC 5357. * several parts of the proposed protocol, e.g., Zero UDP checksum in IP= v6, require detailed security analysis, which is currently absent; Gyan> Agreed Please see previous reply. This is specified in RFC 6936 Security Section. We will add reference = to this RFC in our Security Section as well. This is only specific to the U= DP port locally provisioned in the domain by the operator for TWAMP. GIM>> I've noted above that a simple reference does not sufficiently expla= ins why the use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, doe= s not create a security risk for the protocol. I believe that the proposal = to use zero UDP header checksum requires extensive analysis, using the anal= ysis provided in RFC 6936. Gyan> Completely Agree Please see previous reply. * I was surprised to find out that draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm is on t= he Informational track even though it is essential to the new protocol as i= t defines its key elements This was to address your previous comment quoted as: =93- as I understand, the draft is applicable to TWAMP Light mode, mentioned in the informational Appendix I in RFC 5357, not the TWAMP protocol itself. Since TWAMP Light is not a standard but its idea is described in the informational text only, I think that the Informational track is more appropriate for this specification.=94 https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/bGTsJmJ5-eC3B-mfDCXAFiCAC3o/ Having said that, we are ok to change to PS. GIM>> As explained in RFC 8545 "TWAMP Light is an idea", not a protocol. If= anyone is interested in standardizing an "extension", I'd expect that they= first define the base specification to which the extension applies. I migh= t have missed the definition of TWAMP Light protocol in the draft. Could yo= u point to the definition, for example, of the Authenticated mode in TWAMP = Light in the draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm or RFC 5357? Gyan> Agreed The Appendix I of RFC 5357 does have information on the Authenticatio= n mode. As specified there, this is based on user configured parameters. * I believe that draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm should be anchored at I= PPM WG as it does introduce the new PM protocol. The TWAMP Light extension draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm is already in IPPM WG. The= SPRING draft only defines SR PM procedures. Below, please find my detailed comments, questions on these drafts: * draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm I have several questions about the relationships between this draft and App= endix I in RFC 5357 where the idea of a mode known as TWAMP Light has been = mentioned. The nature of the TWAMP Light and what is required to make it a = standard is well-explained in Section 4 of RFC 8545 (apologies for the long quote): "TWAMP Light" is an idea described in Appendix I ("TWAMP Light (Informative)") of [RFC5357]; TWAMP Light includes an unspecified control protocol combined with the TWAMP-Test protocol. In [RFC5357], the TWAMP Light idea was relegated to Appendix I because TWAMP Light failed to meet the requirements for IETF protocols (there are no specifications for negotiating this form of operation and no specifications for mandatory-to-implement security features), as described in Appendix A of this memo. See also [LarsAD] and [TimDISCUSS]. Since the idea of TWAMP Light clearly includes the TWAMP-Test component of TWAMP, it is considered reasonable for future systems to use the TWAMP-Test well-known UDP port (whose reallocated assignment is specified in this document). Clearly, the TWAMP Light idea envisions many components and communication capabilities beyond TWAMP-Test (implementing the security requirements, for example); otherwise, Appendix I of [RFC5357] would be one sentence long (equating TWAMP Light with TWAMP-Test only). Since we don't have an IETF document that addressed these open questions, I= don't think we can have a draft that proposes extensions to a non-standard= mechanism (Appendix is for Informational material, as I understand it) on = the Standard track. Gyan> Agreed The procedure for using the RFC 5357 defined messages in TWAMP Light = configuration mode is defined in the corresponding spring drafts. It also d= escribes the provisioning model. This was to address your previous comment quoted as =93- as I understand, the draft is applicable to TWAMP Light mode, mentioned in the informational Appendix I in RFC 5357, not the TWAMP protocol itself. Since TWAMP Light is not a standard but its idea is described in the informational text only, I think that the Informational track is more appropriate for this specification.=94 https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/bGTsJmJ5-eC3B-mfDCXAFiCAC3o/ Having said that, we are ok to change to PS as you mentioned above. BTW, despite only difference of fixed vs. variable length payload in S= TAMP vs. TWAMP Light, the STAMP is a proposed standard as RFC 8762 (and it = uses the same approach of provisioning as defined in this draft). Hence, s= ecurity considerations for STAMP and TWAMP Light are not different. Note th= at both STAMP and TWAMP Light have authenticated messages defined for Secur= ity purpose. GIM>> RFC 5357 mentioned TWAMP Light as an unauthenticated, and thus the li= ght, simpler, version of TWAMP-Test component of TWAMP protocol. I cannot f= ind in draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm definition of the Authenticated mode = of TWAMP Light. Also, I'll prefer not to refer to RFC 8762 STAMP in the dis= cussion of "extension" to TWAMP Light. The Authentication information is user-configured as shown in Section= 3.1 of the draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm, and is also described in Append= ix I of RFC 5357. Now a number of more specific questions. draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm: * In the Introduction it is stated that: The TWAMP Light [Appendix I in RFC5357] [BBF.TR-390] provides simplified mechanisms for active performance measurement in Customer IP networks by provisioning UDP paths and eliminates the need for control-channel signaling. I can not find where, either Appendix I or TR-390, "eliminated the need for= control-channel signaling". Also, could you point where the referenced doc= uments describe "provisioning UDP paths"? The Appendix I of RFC 5357 has following text. We can reword and match= the exact text if you prefer. =93This example eliminates the need for the TWAMP-Control protocol, and assumes that the Session-Reflector is configured=94 GIM>> I think that the text you're proposing is even more confusing. It is = not clear which example the sentence is referring to. Also, what is the bas= is for such an assumption? This is the exact text from RFC 5357 Appendix I. Please go through th= e entire Section in that RFC 5357 to avoid =93out of context=94 discussion. * It appears that the last paragraph in the Introduction describes the = relationship with Appendix I of RFC 5357: The procedure uses the mechanisms defined in [RFC5357] (TWAMP Light) and its extensions for Performance Measurement. I think that the reference must be to Appendix I, not RFC 5357. Also, could= you please specify which extensions of TWAMP Light have been used in this = draft? We can add the Appendix I as reference in the next revision. Extension= s are defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm, we can add this reference. GIM>> The problem, in my view, is that Appendix I of RFC 5357 must be a nor= mative reference while it is, by its nature, an Informational document. If approved, it is fine to have informational draft/RFC in a normativ= e reference. But RFC 5357 is PS. * In Section 2.3 describing the reference model is noted: The probe response message is typically sent to the sender node R1. In which scenarios the reflector acts differently? How such behavior is rel= ated to the behavior of a TWAMP Session-Reflector, as defined in RFC 5357? Do you prefer we remove =93typically=94 from the sentence? GIM>> If that fits into the operational model of the new protocol you're de= fining. * Also in Section 2.3 a Link is mentioned as an element directly connec= ting nodes in the presented reference model. Could you clarify what is a Li= nk? Is it always a physical connection between two systems or a virtual? Both, please see Section 4.1.3. =93Link=94 is well known term used in = many existing RFCs (please see RFC 5613, 5340, 8330). GIM>> Thank you for the references. I couldn't find a definition of an obje= ct "Link" (capitalized) but only "link" (lower case). Hence, since the draf= t consistently uses the capitalized form, I consider it to be something els= e, something different from a link. Ok, we can change Link to link in the next revision to avoid confusio= n. * In Section 3 behavior of the reflector described as ... no PM state for delay or loss measurement need to be created on the reflector node R5. That is in contradiction to the behavior of a TWAMP Session-Reflector as de= fined in RFC 5357. Could you provide a reference to an IETF standard where = this behavior is defined? Also, how, without creating a state at the Sessio= n-Reflector, to achieve one-way delay and synthetic loss measurement on a b= idirectional SR tunnel? Gyan> Valid point Bidirectional SR tunnel may have an SR state but the statement above = is that no PM (i.e. TWAMP Light) protocol session state is created for it. = We can clarify in the next revision. Quoting the text from Appendix I in RFC 5357. We can quote the text as= is. =93In the case of TWAMP Light, the Session-Reflector does not necessarily h= ave knowledge of the session state. =93 GIM>> By the informational nature of Appendix I, the text is not normative.= I am familiar with the implementation of TWAMP Light which does maintain t= he session state and thus supports one-way packet loss measurement. If you = require that the remote node does not maintain the state, the draft must de= fine that as part of the specifying the behavior of the protocol. Ok, we can discuss what information is to be maintained in that state= on the reflector for synthetic packet loss. We can add appropriate text if= you can help please. * Further, in Section 3 the selection of UDP port explained as the foll= owing: As specified in [RFC8545], the reflector supports the destination UDP port 862 for delay measurement probe messages by default. This UDP port however, is not used for loss measurement probe messages. To the best of my understanding, as one of the contributors and Editors of = RFC 8545, it re-allocated UDP port 862 for use by a TWAMP Session-Reflector= without excluding any type of measurement. Besides, in TWAMP delay and pac= ket loss are measured in the same test session, using the same flow of TWAM= P-Test packets. Gyan> Agreed Yes, we can use port 862 for both delay and synthetic packet loss =96= they are using the same test packet. There is no change proposed in the dr= aft. The packet loss in existing RFC 5357 refers to synthetic loss as there= is no support for direct-mode loss in RFC 5357. We can change the text to = clarify as =93This UDP port however, is not used for direct-mode loss measu= rement probe messages.=94 GIM>> I've found that there's some misconception in the draft. RFC 8545 re-= assigned UDP port 862 not for "delay measurement probe messages" but for TW= AMP-Test protocol. TWAMP-Test protocol, in turn, supports packet delay, pac= ket loss, reordering (RFC 4737 defines packet reordering metric), and packe= t duplication measurement. * Then the draft states that The sender uses the UDP port number following the guidelines specified in S= ection 6 in [RFC6335]. Could you point to the guidelines that a user can use when selecting a UDP = port number of a test session? Gyan> Good point Please see section 6 in [RFC6335]. We can cite the range which will be= the same as used in [RFC8762]. This was also discussed earlier. https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/ONYYhG9Y8sbiNO15bxWIRM9ymEE/ GIM>> I've looked through Section 6 but I don't find anything specifically = applicable to this draft we're discussing. If the protocol to use UDP port = numbers from the Dynamic ports range, a.k.a., Private or Ephemeral, then it= seems that stating that explicitly would be the best way. This would be, User Ports and Dynamic Ports ranges, which are defined= in [RFC6335]. Yes, we can add this te= xt. * At the closing of the paragraph, we read that The number of UDP ports with PM functionality needs to be minimized due to limited hardware resources. Does a UDP port number pose PM functionality? How it is assigned to the por= t number? UDP ports are user configured for delay and direct-mode loss PM as des= cribed in Section 3.1. GIM>> Can UDP port 862 be used? Also, requiring that the direct-loss measur= ement uses port number different from the one used by a TWAMP-Test packet, = in my opinion, is another indication that this is the definition of a diffe= rent from TWAMP Light PM OAM protocol. If we add a field in the packet then UDP port 862 may be used along w= ith the new field. But it will require extra processing in hardware. It is = better to use a different UDP port for processing efficiency in hardware. * Following the above-quoted text, in Section 3 is noted: For Performance Measurement, probe query and response messages are sent as following: Could you clarify if the listed further procedures deviate from OWAMP/TWAMP= or follow procedures defined in RFC 4656 and RFC 5357 for Session-Sender a= nd Session-Reflector respectively? Probe messages follow the same procedure as defined in RFC 4656 and RF= C 5357. GIM>> All messages, i.e., TWAMP-Test packets as well as the defined in draf= t-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm? Yes, unless otherwise specified in the draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm. * for both delay and loss measurements draft requires test packet be tr= ansmitted on a congruent path: the probe messages are sent on the congruent path of the data traffic by the sender node It is not clear what "the congruent path" means. The definition of congruen= cy in geometry tells us that an object B is congruent to object A if it has= the same shape and size, but is allowed to flip, slide or turn. How a path= can be congruent to another path? Gyan> Agreed. The use of congruent in the context of pathing is con= fusing as the path being addressed may not be reflected accurately by the t= erm congruent. As replied above. There are many existing RFCs that use term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 59= 21, 6669) without defining them. I suspect it is because it is well-known t= erm. Having said that, we can add a reference for it if it helps reader. GIM>> I cannot assume what was the context of these RFCs. I've sketched a n= etwork diagram above to illustrate that a "congruent path" may well lead to= out-of-band path. Is that the intention of the authors of the draft to use= this protocol out-of-band? As replied above. * The last paragraph in Section 3 refers to work on iOAM: The In-Situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (IOAM) mechanisms for SR-MPLS defined in [I-D.gandhi-mpls-ioam-sr] and for SRv6 defined in [I-D.ali-spring-ioam-srv6] are used to carry PM information such as timestamp in-band as part of the data packets, and are outside the scope of this document. Is iOAM in the scope of this specification? What are the relationships betw= een iOAM and draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm? As mentioned in the draft, IOAM is outside the scope. GIM>> Yes, but it appears that references to the two IOAM-related drafts ha= ve some purpose. What is it? How are these drafts related to draft-gandhi-s= pring-twamp-srpm? We can remove them if it is confusing. It is informational text (was = added to address a review comment). * Section 3.1 presents an example of the provisioning model but puts th= e definition of the provisioning model outside the scope. Is there an accom= panying specification that defines the provisioning model that can be used = in multi-vendor deployment? Could that be YANG data model? What is the rela= tionship with draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang? Would the TWAMP YANG data model be augmented? Yes, this can be Yang model. We can review draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang<= https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang-13> and add any miss= ing items in a separate draft. We can also add a reference in this draft. GIM>> I think that theremust be some discussion on how the new protocol is = configured. If TWAMP YANG data model can be augmented, I'd expect that bein= g defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm. But I couldn't find anything abo= ut the configuration of the protocol. The Yang model extensions are not in the scope of this draft. * Section 4.1 states that a new message is introduced to perform the Lo= ss Measurement in this protocol Why the capability of TWAMP to measure the = loss in one-way and two-way is not sufficient? Existing TWAMP messages do not support =93direct-mode=94 loss measurem= ent. We can add =93direct-mode=94 in the text to clarify. GIM>> True, direct loss measurement, in fact, is not active measurement and= thus is outside the scope of Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP). = The direct-loss measurement is, by the definition of RFC 7799, passive meas= urement method and fetching counters can be done using numerous methods, e.= g., SNMP, Netconf. RFC 7799 does not say using Test-packets to collect counters for dire= ct-mod loss measurement is passive. * Section 4.1.1 requires that The Destination UDP port cannot be used as Source port, since the message does not have any indication to distinguish between the query and response message. Does that imply that the Destination UDP port used for the Delay measuremen= t is unique throughout the particular domain? Gyan> Good question Yes, it is unique in the domain. This is user-defined and is up to the user what UDP port to provision = in a domain. GIM>> So, can user configure a port number from the User Ports range? Or, c= an the same port number be used on the same system for a number of test ses= sions? I find the use of UDP port numbers being underspecified. * Section 4.1.2 of RFC 5357 does not define "the delay measurement mess= age" but refers to the definition of the Session-Sender's test packet in RF= C 4656 OWAMP. Note, that OWAMP and TWAMP are using a single test packet for= mat to perform both delay and packet loss measurement. Ok, we can update the text in the next revision to indicate exact name= from the RFC 4656. We can also add text to include synthetic packet loss. GIM>> I think that making it explicit would help. Also, that will highlight= what is being introduced by *twamp-srpm drafts is, in fact, a new protocol= to perform synthetic packet loss measurement. No, it does not change anything for synthetic packet loss. * Can you explain how "the DM probe query message contains the payload = format defined in Section 4.2.1 of [RFC5357]" when the referenced section o= f RFC 5357 defines the format of a Session-Reflector's test packet? We can update the text in the next revision to indicate query format n= ame from RFC 5357. GIM>> I cannot find any reference to a query format in RFCs 4656/5357. Coul= d you please quote from any of these documents? It is test-packet, we will use RFC 5357 term. * Can clarify the applicability of RFC 6038 and the symmetrical packet = size? Is it required? Can it be non-symmetrical? Yes. Please see section 4.1.1 and quoted below: =93For symmetrical size query and response messages as defined in [RFC6038]= ,=94 GIM>> RFC 6038 defines an extension to RFC 5357 for OPTIONAL use of the sym= metrical test packets. Since *-twamp-srpm proposals do not use TWAMP-Contro= l protocol and Appendix I in RFC 5357 tells us nothing about that either (i= n part because RFC 6038 came later), I don't see that there's any certainty= in what is the sze of a test packet used in the direct-loss measurement. The test-packets as defined in these existing RFCs are used for delay= and synthetic packet loss. The direct-mode test-packets are defined in thi= s draft. * Can you clarify the use of the timestamp format, NTP or PTPv2? It is = not clear which is the default, mandatory or optional. This is same as TWAMP. There is no change. GIM>> Per RFC 5357, TWAMP uses only NTP format. Is that the case for *-twam= p-srpm? No change in existing in what is there in RFC 5357 and RFC 8186. * Also, is "hardware support in Segment Routing networks" of the PTPv2 = format required, guaranteed, or something else? Hardware timestamps are recommended for SR use-cases. We can change th= e sentence. GIM>> Perhaps you can propose some text, that would be helpful. Ack. * Section 4.1.1.1 stated that A separate user-configured destination UDP port is used for the delay measurement in authentication mode due to the different probe message format. Can that be interpreted that there could be concurrent authenticated and un= authenticated test sessions using this protocol? Would different authentica= tion methods require using unique destination UDP port numbers? Yes, and Yes, and these are based on provisioning. GIM>> But that requirement is far outside the TWAMP, as defined in RFC 5357= . Some Session-Sender can use authenticated and some not. It is part of= RFC 5357. * Section 4.1.2 by introducing the dedicated Loss measurement packet fo= rmat, effectively modifies the behavior defined in RFC 5357 for Session-Sen= der and Session-Reflector. But the document does not state that. Can you cl= arify whether this specification changes the behavior of a Session-Sender a= nd Session-Reflector as defined in RFC 4656 and RFC 5357 respectively for t= he support of packet loss measurement? The direct-mode loss defines new procedure for sender/reflector to col= lect traffic counters, as opposed to timestamp. The rest is the same as RFC= 4656 and 5357. GIM>> I cannot agree with your statement " The rest is the same as RFC 4656= and 5357" because the sender's direct-loss format does not have Error Esti= mate field, Thus, a reflected packet does not have Sender's Error Estimate,= nor Error Estimate of the reflector. And that, in my opinion, is another c= lear indication that *twamp-srpm drafts define a new protocol, separate fro= m OWAMP/TWAMP. That field is specific to timestamps and would not apply to counters = for direct-mode loss measurement. * And a similar question about the use of the separate UDP port number = for the authenticated of the packet loss measurement. * A couple of question to the following text in Section 4.1.3: The local and remote IP addresses of the link are used as Source and Destination Addresses. They can also be IPv6 link local address as probe messages are pre- routed. * What are the addresses of a link? I am assuming this well-known (e.g. RFC 2328). GIM>> I am not familiar with the term "pre-routed". What does it mean? Ensure that packets are routed over the link. * In which scenarios an IPv6 LLA can be used? I am assuming this is well-known (e.g. RFC 5613). GIM>> So, LLA may be used as the source and destination addresses when test= ing an SR tunnel? As mentioned this is for links. * Also, could the use of a routable destination IP address be used a= s a DDOS attack vector? Consider the scenario when an attacker generates SR= -encapsulated packets with the destination IP address other than any of the= SR-terminating nodes. Such a packet will be routed, correct? That does app= ear as a security threat, would you agree? Absolutely do not agree. It is no different than IP routed TWAMP packe= t as defined in [RFC5357]. GIM>> You don't agree that the processing described cannot happen because o= f laws of physics or it wouldn't happen because no one will think of that? = If the latter, I think that that is security threat. There is no new threat like you have mentioned. * Section 4.1.4.2 references Figure 5 that, as I understand it, display= s the format of a probe query message. In figure two references to RFC 5357= are provided - a section that references RFC 4656 OWAMP definition of the = Session-Sender test packet, and a section that defines the Session-Reflecto= r's reflected packet. Which of the two is used for the delay measurement in= the proposed protocol? The probe query packet in the Session-Sender text packet. We can updat= e the name. * Section 4.2.1 states that In one-way measurement mode, the probe response message as defined in Figure 6 is sent back out-of-band to the sender node ... Could you clarify how the responder controls that the response packet is se= nt not in-band but out-of-band? Please refer to section 3.1 in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm. This is = existing behaviour for out-of-band. GIM>> draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm does not specify that it defines another= new protocol OWAMP Light. And it is not clear what you reference as "this = is existing behavior". Is it to reference behavior of TWAMP test packet? Bu= t the behavior of the TWAMP-Test protocol by itself is neither in-band, nor= out-of-band. It is the encapsulation of the TWAMP test packet that makes i= t either in-band or out-of-band. Right. * How's the method described in Section 4.2.3 is different from the met= hod described in RFC 8403? What is dis= tinctly unique about the loopback mode proposed in the section? There is no mention of Loopback mode or TWAMP / RFC 5357 in RFC 8403. GIM>> So, you believe that proposing to use the method described in RFC 840= 3 for the TWAMP packet is innovation? And what are the benefits of using th= e TWAMP test packet format in the Loopback mode? Please see the draft. * What is the rationale for setting TTL/Hop Limit fields always to 255 = for IPv4, MPLS, and IPv6 (per Section 4.3.1)? This is as defined in Section 4.2 of RFC 5357 (Bullet 4). GIM>> I believe you've misunderstood the text in RFC 5357. This bullet spec= ifies the behavior of a Session-Reflector. It is to try to read TTL value o= f the received TWAMP test packet and copy the value in Sender TTL field of = the reflected packet. If the Session-Reflector cannot access the TTL field,= it MUST write 255 in the Sender TTL field. So, I think that my questions s= till remains. Please see Section 4.2.1 of RFC 5357. * Section 4.3.3 states that a zero-value UDP checksum may be used in so= me scenarios. RFC 8085 allows that but in very specific cases that are docu= mented in detail in Section 3.4.1. Do you believe that the case of this pro= tocol checks all the requirements for allowing the use of Zero UDP checksum= as specified in RFC 8085? Also, I believe that allowing the use of Zero UD= P checksum in some scenarios, this protocol introduces a security threat th= at must be thoroughly analyzed in the Security Considerations section. This is described in RFC 6936. It will be very specific to the UDP por= t provisioned for TWAMP. We will add reference to RFC 6936 in Security Sect= ion. GIM>> I don't think that the reference is sufficient for the Securit Consid= eration. I'd expect some extended discussion on why using zero UDP header c= hecksum is not a security threat for *twamp-srpm protocol. Please see reply above. * Section 8 refers to "liveness monitoring of Links and SR Paths". This= appears as the replication of functionality provided by BFD/S-BFD protocol= s. Is such comparison accurate? If it is, shouldn't the proposal be also re= viewed by the BFD WG? TWAMP probe messages are used today for synthetic packet loss which c= an also be used to detect connection loss (performance metric). The section= simply highlights this obvious metric. GIM>> Can you point to a document that has defined "TWAMP probe messages a= re used today for synthetic packet loss"? Also, which document defines loss= of connectivity as a performance metric? Does *twamp-srpm proposes to use = the new protocol to detect the loss of path continuity? For example Y.1731 has such notion of connection loss. TWAMP is used = widely for synthetic packet loss and is well-known. There is no change in p= rotocol. This is reported metric. * I found the Security Section of the proposed protocol inadequately te= rse and missing very important threats that this protocol introduces in the= network. Other than referring RFC 6936 for zero checksum what else is missing? = Otherwise it is no different than RFC 8762 (STAMP). GIM>> I cannot see how RFC 8762 is relevant to *twamp-srpm drafts. The use = of source IP addresses, as mentioned above, appears to be another security = risk introduced by *-twamp-srpm drafts. There is no mention of Source IP address above. * draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm As I understand it, the motivation for the Loss Measurement mode defined in= this specification is to collect "in-profile" counters. Is that correct? D= o you see as essential for this mode that the query messages are in-band wi= th the flow being profiled? In your opinion, how using an out-of-band metho= d of collecting these counters, e.g., by using ICMP multi-part message exte= nsion per RFC 4884, could affect the accuracy comparing with the method in = this protocol? How the impact changes if extended ICMP messages are in-band= with the profiled flow? Yes, they need to be in-band with the flow, to collect the counter f= rom the right forwarding paths for the flow. Discussion of using ICMP for d= irect-mode loss measurement is outside the scope of this draft. As mentioned earlier, I am not sure extending ICMP to do PM is a good = option here. Both TWAMP and OWAMP are widely deployed today for delay and s= ynthetic loss measurement. GIM>> What is the reason mentioning OWAMP? Are drafts *-twamp-srpm extend R= FC 4656 OWAMP as well? Also, what you see as the connection between using a= ctive measurement methods to measure packet delay and packet loss, on one h= and, and collecting packet counters? The Session-Sender test-packet is defined in OWAMP RFC and not TWAMP = RFC. Other than timestamp and its format vs. counter and its format, the me= ssages and processing are the same. Thanks, Rakesh * Section 3.1 introduces the new field, Sender Control Code. The format= of the packet, as I understand it, is presented in Figure 1. When comparin= g with the format of Session-Sender's test packet defined in RFC 4656 OWAMP= in Section 4.1.2 I've noticed that there are no MBZ fields. Are these intr= oduced by your proposal? It shows the partial message that has new field. We can update it to s= how the full message to avoid such confusion. * Also, it appears that the Sequence Number field in TWAMP Session-Send= er's test packet is absent in Figure 1. Is that intentional? It shows the partial message that has new field. We can update it to s= how the full message to avoid such confusion. Thanks, Rakesh Regards, Greg Thanks Gyan On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 5:51 AM James Guichard > wrote: Dear WG: This message starts a 3 week WG adoption call for document https://tools.ie= tf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 ending November 12th 2020. Pl= ease note that this document has several changes from v-10 that were reques= ted by the SPRING and IPPM chairs. For this reason, the chairs have extende= d the adoption call for an additional week to allow the WG enough time to r= eview these changes before deciding on WG adoption. Some background: Several review comments were received previously for document https://tools= .ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10. The SPRING and IPPM chair= s considered those comments, and upon review of this version of the documen= t, determined the following: * The SPRING document should describe only the procedures relevant to S= PRING with pointers to non-SPRING document/s that define any extensions. Se= veral extensions including Control Code Field Extension for TWAMP Light Mes= sages, Loss Measurement Query Message Extensions, and Loss Measurement Resp= onse Message Extensions were included in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-= gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10 and should be removed from the SPRING document. * The TWAMP extensions included in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ga= ndhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10 should be described in a new document published i= n the IPPM WG. These conclusions were discussed with the authors of https://tools.ietf.or= g/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10 the result of which is the publica= tion of the following two documents: * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11. The su= bject of this WG adoption call. * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00. This doc= ument will be progressed (if determined by the WG) within the IPPM WG. After review of the SPRING document please indicate support (or not) for WG= adoption to the mailing list. Please also provide comments/reasons for tha= t support (or lack thereof) as silence will not be considered as consent. Finally, the chairs would like to thank the authors for their efforts in th= is matter. Thanks! Jim, Bruno, & Joel _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring -- [http://ss7.vzw.com/is/image/VerizonWireless/vz-logo-email] Gyan Mishra Network Solutions Architect M 301 502-1347 13101 Columbia Pike Silver Spring, MD --_000_DM6PR11MB3115E8AAC89CECAA553E8191BFF90DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Thank you Gyan and Gre= g for your review comments and discussions. Please see inline replies with = <RG2>=85

     

     

    From: Gyan Mishra <hay= abusagsm@gmail.com>
    Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2020 at 12:34 PM
    To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
    Cc: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>, James Guichard <james.n.g= uichard@futurewei.com>, Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com>= ;, ippm-chairs@ietf.org <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.or= g <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, spring@ietf.org <spring@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [spring] [ippm] WG Adoption Call for https://tools.ietf= .org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11

     

    Hi Rakesh 

     

    I have been following this thread and to help progre= ss the discussion I would like to provide some comments in-line Gyan>&nb= sp;

     

    Thanks 

     

    Gyan

     

    On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 7:08 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

    Hi Rakesh,

    thank you for the response to my comments. Plea= se find my follow-up notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.

     

    Regards,

    Greg

     

    On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 7:33 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgand= hi) <rgandhi@cisc= o.com> wrote:

    Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly= reviewing the documents and providing the comments.

    Please see replies inline with <RG>=85<= /span>

     

    From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org&= gt;
    Date: Friday, November 6, 2020 at 11:18 AM
    To: James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>
    Cc: spring@ietf= .org <spring@ie= tf.org>, ippm-chairs@ietf.= org <ippm-= chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@i= etf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] WG Adoption Call for https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11

    Dear Chairs of the SPRING and IPPM WGs, Authors, et al.,

    I've found myself in the situation when two related drafts are in = the WG APs in the SPRING and IPPM WG (with the possibility that expertise f= rom the third WG, BFD WG, might be desirable to review the "liveness monitoring"). Because these drafts are c= losely related, I've decided to combine my questions and comments in a sing= le thread. I hope that would be acceptable and considered by the SPRING WG = as well as IPPM WG.

    Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluated&n= bsp;by answers to these three questions:

    • Is the document(s) reasonably well-written

    I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology from = RFC 4656 and 5357 and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender an= d Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", are used in the documents withou= t proper definitions. Other than that both drafts are readable and reasonab= ly well-written.

    <RG> We are ok to change Sender to Se= ssion-Sender and Reflector to Session-Reflector if it helps.

     

    GIM>> I believe that the consistency in termin= ology between the core RFC and what is intended as its extension is not onl= y helpful to a reader but, to the best of my understanding, is required for= IETF specifications. But I don't think that switching the terminology will fix the fundamental issue with the pro= posal. The operation that is required from the remote entity, whether it is= referred to as responder or Session-Reflector, is not defined in Appendix = I of RFC 5357, nor in RFCs 4656 or 5357 itself. In my opinion, the behavior required, as described in the = draft, cannot be characterized as an extension of OWAMP, TWAMP, or TWAMP Li= ght but presents a completely new protocol that, if there's a need in the n= ew PM OAM protocol, must be properly defined.

     

       Gyan> I am in complete agreement wit= h Greg about terminology and consistency.  The problem with inconsiste= ncy is that that you are not following well known normative references requ= ired to understand the specification leading to confusion and misunderstanding of the specification.  The goal should be clear = and concise in terminology and verbiage.

     

    <RG2> Agree. Wil= l address the terms from RFC 5357 in the next revision.

    <RG> There are many existing RFCs tha= t use term =93Link=94 (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340, 8330, etc.) and term =93Congrue= nt Path=94 (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without defining them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having said that, we c= an add a reference for them if it helps.

    GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. I thin= k I need to clarify my questions. While a reference to any of RFCs you've m= entioned, I don't think that will address my concern. In reviewed documents= , "Link" is capitalized while referenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can these be = used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object?<= /p>

    Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using the= term "congruent path" in these drafts (using ASCII-art):

                  &nb= sp;        C---------D

                  &nb= sp;      /              &= nbsp;  \

                A----B&nbs= p;                  E-----F

                  &nb= sp;      \              &= nbsp;   /

                  &nb= sp;      G------------H

    Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the= network as A-B-C-D-E-F. Is A-B-G-H-E-F congruent to it? From the definitio= n of "congruent" as "two figures or objects are congruent if= they have the same shape and size, or if one has the same shape and size as the mirror image of the other", it looks a= s the path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to that SR tunnel. But a packet of an a= ctive OAM intended to monitor a flow over the SR tunnel is out-of-band rela= tive to that flow and will not produce any meaningful measurement. Of course, for the case of the extensions in d= rafts *-twamp-srpm, direct loss measurement can be performed, as informatio= n collected from node F and packets that collect the counters are not requi= red to be in-band with the monitored flow. So, this example, in my opinion, illustrates two of my concerns:

    =B7         using a congruent path for active performanc= e measurement, e.g., TWAMP or TWAMP Light, may produce information that doe= s not reflect the condition experienced by the monitored flow. It seems tha= t the terminology should reflect the fundamental requirement of ensuring that active OAM test packets are i= n-band with the monitored flow.

    =B7         there are no technical requirements to justi= fy using in-band test packets for direct packet loss measurement. In fact, = using the in-band method for collecting in-profile counters leads to a wast= e of bandwidth, which may have a negative impact on services that require low-latency and/or low packet los= s. As demonstrated in this example, direct packet loss can be performed usi= ng an out-of-band mechanism, e.g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications base= d on YANG data model.

    • Does the document solve a real problem?

    No, it appears that these drafts define a new performance measurem= ent protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP and TWAMP functionality and= adding the ability to collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find sufficient technical ar= guments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the exis= ting OAM mechanisms like ICMP.

     Gyan>  This may sound basic but is a very critical s= ubject going down the same lines of clarity in verbiage so their is no misu= nderstanding.  =93Congruent=94 by definition means shape of an object and if you super imposed two objects on top of each other the= y fit perfectly and the edges coincide identically.  The problem with = congruent is that it is based on the shape and that shape could be a mirror= image or reflection which may not be exact.  So when referring to a SR-TE path taken this could lead to co= nfusion as to path taken if it=92s the same path or congruent which is vagu= e as to =93exactly=94 which path is taken where here there is criticality a= s to the path being referenced in terms of in-band versus out-of-band.  I agree th= at for direct in band packet loss measurement can be done via existing OAM = mechanisme via ICMP.

    <RG2> Ok, we will find an appr= opriate term for =93sending packets on the same path as data traffic=94.

    <RG2> Extending ICMP for direc= t-mode loss measurement is outside the scope of this draft. But good to see the agreement for the direct in band packet= loss measurement to be done (albeit by some other means).

    <RG> There is a requirement to measur= e performance delay as well as synthetic and direct-mode packet loss in seg= ment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packet loss measur= ement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a good option here.

    GIM>> I agree with the requirements you'v= e listed (though the SPRING WG OAM requirements= document has been abandoned and expired 3+ years ago). I believe that there's no sufficient technical reason to use OW= AMP/TWAMP for exclusive direct packet loss measurement.  

     

        Gyan> Agreed

     

    <RG2> There i= s definitely a need to do direct-mode loss measurement in IP/SR networks, a= s RFC 6374 mechanisms are for MPLS networks. Note that there was an attempt to extend BFD for direct-mode loss measurem= ent for this purpose using RFC 6374 loss measurement message (see draft-mirmin-bfd-extended-03).

     

     

    • Is the proposed solution technically viable?

    There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk intr= oduced by the protocol on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the= proposed solution.

    <RG> About your comment on zer= o checksum, this is described in Security section in RFC 6936. We will add = reference to this RFC in our Security Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in the = domain by the operator for TWAMP. Other than this, I did not find any other= security related issue in your review below.

    GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference suff= iciently explains why the use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not de= cremental, does not create a security risk for the protocol.

     

        Gyan> Agreed 0 UDP MIMA security th= reats and that you need to thorough vetting of RFC 6936.

     

    <RG2> Yes, will = add in the next revision. Hope we can work together on needed text.

     

     

     

    To summarize my review of these two drafts:

    • these propose a new protocol, not an update or enhancement of the TWAMP-lik= e protocol;

    <RG> The probe and response me= ssages defined in [RFC 5357] are used for delay measurement and synthetic p= acket loss. The direct-mode packet loss messages are defined in draf= t-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm that matc= h these delay measurement messages. As stated, draft-gandhi-ippm-tw= amp-srpm defines =93extensions=94 = for TWAMP Light.

    GIM>> I cannot find where RFC 5357 defines &qu= ot;the probe and response messages". Could you give a more specific re= ference or provide the text that, in your opinion, defines such messages? B= ut I'm more concerned with the direction of "extending" non-protocol referred to as "TWAMP Light". As a contributor to B= BF's TR-390, I'm have learned how different are existing implementatio= ns of TWAMP Light. And that is also noted in EANTC Multi-Vendor Interoperability 2019 white paper. The status of TWA= MP Light is explained in RFC 8545 and I cannot see that it can be used as a= foundation of any standard.

     

        Gyan> I don=92t see the probe a d r= esponse messages in TWAMP RFC 5357

     

    <RG2> Agree to u= se term test-packet from RFC 5357.

    • several parts of the proposed protocol, e.g., Zero UDP checksum in IPv6, re= quire detailed security analysis, which is currently absent;

     

         Gyan> Agreed =

     

    <RG2> Please see= previous reply.

     

     

    <RG> This is specified in RFC = 6936 Security Section. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Se= ction as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in the domain by the operator for TWAMP.

    GIM>>  I've noted above that a simple ref= erence does not sufficiently explains why the use of zero UDP checksum in I= Pv6 header is not decremental, does not create a security risk for the prot= ocol. I believe that the proposal to use zero UDP header checksum requires extensive analysis, using the analysis provid= ed in RFC 6936.

     

        Gyan> Completely Agree

     

    <RG2> Please see= previous reply.

     

    • I was surprised to find out that draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm is on th= e Informational track even though it is essential to the new protocol as it= defines its key elements
    <RG> This was to address your previous comment qu=
oted as:
     =93- as I understand, the draft is=
 applicable to TWAMP Light mode,

       mentioned in the informational Appendix I in = RFC 5357, not the TWAMP

       protocol itself. Since TWAMP Light is not a s= tandard but its idea is

       described in the informational text only, I t= hink that the Informational

      track is more appropriate for this specification.= =94

    https://m= ailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/bGTsJmJ5-eC3B-mfDCXAFiCAC3o/

    <RG> Having said that, we are = ok to change to PS.

    GIM>> As explained in RFC 8545 "TWAMP Lig= ht is an idea", not a protocol. If anyone is interested in standardizi= ng an "extension", I'd expect that they first define the base spe= cification to which the extension applies. I might have missed the definition of TWAMP Light protocol in the draft. Could you point to the definition, for example, of the Authenticated mode i= n TWAMP Light in the draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm or RFC 5357? =

     

         Gyan> Agreed =

     

    <RG2> The Append= ix I of RFC 5357 does have information on the Authentication mode. As speci= fied there, this is based on user configured parameters.

     

     

    • I believe that draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm should be anchored at IP= PM WG as it does introduce the new PM protocol.

        

     

    <RG> The TWAMP Light extension draft-gandhi-ippm-tw= amp-srpm is already in IPPM WG. The SPRING draft only = defines SR PM procedures.

     

    Below, please find my detailed comments, questions on these d= rafts:

    • draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm

    I have several questions about the relationships between this draf= t and Appendix I in RFC 5357 where the idea of a mode known as TWAMP Light = has been mentioned. The nature of the TWAMP Light and what is required to make it a standard is well-explained i= n Section 4 of RFC 8545 (apologies for the long quote):

       "TWAMP Light" is an idea described in Appen= dix I ("TWAMP Light
       (Informative)") of [RFC5357]; TWAMP Light includes an uns= pecified
       control protocol combined with the TWAMP-Test protocol.  = In
       [RFC5357], the TWAMP Light idea was relegated to Appendix I be= cause
       TWAMP Light failed to meet the requirements for IETF protocols= (there
       are no specifications for negotiating this form of operation a= nd no
       specifications for mandatory-to-implement security features), = as
       described in Appendix A of this memo.  See also [LarsAD] = and
       [TimDISCUSS].

       Since the idea of TWAMP Light clearly includes the TWAMP-Test<= br>    component of TWAMP, it is considered reasonable for future sys= tems to
       use the TWAMP-Test well-known UDP port (whose reallocated assi= gnment
       is specified in this document).  Clearly, the TWAMP Light= idea
       envisions many components and communication capabilities beyon= d
       TWAMP-Test (implementing the security requirements, for exampl= e);
       otherwise, Appendix I of [RFC5357] would be one sentence long<= br>    (equating TWAMP Light with TWAMP-Test only).

     

    Since we don't have an IETF document that addressed these open que= stions, I don't think we can have a draft that proposes extensions to a non= -standard mechanism (Appendix is for Informational material, as I understand it) on the Standard track.

     Gyan> Agreed 

    <RG2> The procedure for using = the RFC 5357 defined messages in TWAMP Light configuration mode is defined in the corresponding spring drafts. It also = describes the provisioning model.

     

    <RG> This was to address your previous comment qu=
oted as
     =93- as I understand, the draft is=
 applicable to TWAMP Light mode,

       mentioned in the informational Appendix I in = RFC 5357, not the TWAMP

       protocol itself. Since TWAMP Light is not a s= tandard but its idea is

       described in the informational text only, I t= hink that the Informational

       track is more appropriate for this specificat= ion.=94

    https://m= ailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/bGTsJmJ5-eC3B-mfDCXAFiCAC3o/

    <RG> Having said that, we are = ok to change to PS as you mentioned above.

    <RG> BTW, despite only differe= nce of fixed vs. variable length payload in STAMP vs. TWAMP Light, the STAM= P is a proposed standard as RFC 8762 (and it uses the same approach of provisioning  as defined in this draft). He= nce, security considerations for STAMP and TWAMP Light are not different. N= ote that both STAMP and TWAMP Light have authenticated messages defined for= Security purpose.

    GIM>> RFC 5357 mentioned TWAMP Light as an una= uthenticated, and thus the light, simpler, version of TWAMP-Test component = of TWAMP protocol. I cannot find in draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm def= inition of the Authenticated mode of TWAMP Light. Also, I'll prefer not to refer to RFC 8762 STAMP in the discussion of &quo= t;extension" to TWAMP Light.

     

    <RG2> The Authentication infor= mation is user-configured as shown in Section 3.1 of the draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm, and is also described in Append= ix I of RFC 5357.

     

    Now a number of more specific questions.

    draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm:

    • In the Introduction it is stated that:

      The TWAMP Light [Appendix I in RFC5357] [BBF.TR-390] provid= es
       simplified mechanisms for active performance measurement in Cu= stomer
       IP networks by provisioning UDP paths and eliminates the need = for
       control-channel signaling.

    I can not find where, either Appendix I or TR-390, "elim= inated the need for control-channel signaling". Also, could you point = where the referenced documents describe "provisioning UDP paths"?

     

    <RG> The Appendix I of RFC 5357 has following tex=
t. We can reword and match the exact text if you prefer.<=
/pre>

     
    

    =93This example eliminates the need=
 for the TWAMP-Control protocol, and
    

       assumes that the Session-Re=
flector is configured=94

    GIM>> I think that the text you're proposing i= s even more confusing. It is not clear which example the sentence is referr= ing to. Also, what is the basis for such an assumption? 

     

    <RG2> This is th= e exact text from RFC 5357 Appendix I. Please go through the entire Section= in that RFC 5357 to avoid =93out of context=94 discussion.

     

    • It appears that the last paragraph in the Introduction describes the relati= onship with Appendix I of RFC 5357:

       The procedure uses the mechanisms defined in [RFC5357= ]
       (TWAMP Light) and its extensions for Performance Measurement.<= o:p>

    I think that the reference must be to Appendix I, not RFC 5357. Al= so, could you please specify which extensions of TWAMP Light have been used= in this draft?

    <RG> We can add the Appendix I as ref= erence in the next revision. Extensions are defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-tw= amp-srpm, we can add this reference.

    GIM>> The problem, in my view, is that Appendi= x I of RFC 5357 must be a normative reference while it is, by its nature, a= n Informational document. 

     

    <RG2> If approve= d, it is fine to have informational draft/RFC in a normative reference. But= RFC 5357 is PS.

    • In Section 2.3 describing the reference model is noted:

      •    The probe response message is typically sent to the s= ender node R1.

      In which scenarios the reflector acts differently? How such behavi= or is related to the behavior of a TWAMP Session-Reflector, as defined in R= FC 5357?

      <RG> Do you prefer we remove =93typic= ally=94 from the sentence?

    GIM>> If that fits into the operational model = of the new protocol you're defining. 

    • Also in Section 2.3 a Link is mentioned as an element directly connecting n= odes in the presented reference model. Could you clarify what is a Link? Is= it always a physical connection between two systems or a virtual?

    <RG> Both, please see Section = 4.1.3. =93Link=94 is well known term used in many existing RFCs (please see= RFC 5613, 5340, 8330).

    GIM>> Thank you for the references. I couldn't= find a definition of an object "Link" (capitalized) but only &qu= ot;link" (lower case). Hence, since the draft consistently uses the ca= pitalized form, I consider it to be something else, something different from a link. 

     

    <RG2> Ok, we can= change Link to link in the next revision to avoid confusion.

    • In Section 3 behavior of the reflector described as

       ... no PM state for delay or loss measurement need to= be created on the
       reflector node R5.

    That is in contradiction to the behavior of a TWAMP Session-Reflec= tor as defined in RFC 5357. Could you provide a reference to an IETF standa= rd where this behavior is defined? Also, how, without creating a state at the Session-Reflector, to achieve one-way= delay and synthetic loss measurement on a bidirectional SR tunnel?

     Gyan> Valid point 

    <RG2> Bidirectional SR tunnel = may have an SR state but the statement above is that no PM (i.e. TWAMP Light) protocol session state is created for it.= We can clarify in the next revision.

     

    <RG> Quoting the text from Appendix I= in RFC 5357. We can quote the text as is.

    =93In the case of TWAMP Light, the Sessi=
on-Reflector does not necessarily have knowledge of the session state. =93<=
/span>

    GIM>> By the informational nature of Appendix = I, the text is not normative. I am familiar with the implementation of TWAM= P Light which does maintain the session state and thus supports one-way pac= ket loss measurement. If you require that the remote node does not maintain the state, the draft must define that as= part of the specifying the behavior of the protocol.

     

    <RG2> Ok, we can= discuss what information is to be maintained in that state on the reflecto= r for synthetic packet loss. We can add appropriate text if you can help please.

     

    • Further, in Section 3 the selection of UDP port explained as the following:=

       As specified in [RFC8545], the reflector
       supports the destination UDP port 862 for delay measurement pr= obe
       messages by default.  This UDP port however, is not used = for loss
       measurement probe messages.

    To the best of my understanding, as one of the contributors and&nb= sp;Editors of RFC 8545, it re-allocated UDP port 862 for use by a TWAMP Ses= sion-Reflector without excluding any type of measurement. Besides, in TWAMP delay and packet loss are measured in th= e same test session, using the same flow of TWAMP-Test packets.<= /p>

     Gyan> Agreed 

    <RG2> Yes, we can use port 862= for both delay and synthetic packet loss =96 they are using the same test packet. There is no change proposed in the dr= aft.

    <RG> The packet loss in existi= ng RFC 5357 refers to synthetic loss as there is no support for direct-mode= loss in RFC 5357. We can change the text to clarify as =93This UDP port however, is not used for direct-mode loss meas= urement probe messages.=94

    GIM>> I've found that there's some misconcepti= on in the draft. RFC 8545 re-assigned UDP port 862 not for "delay meas= urement probe messages" but for TWAMP-Test protocol. TWAMP-Test protoc= ol, in turn, supports packet delay, packet loss, reordering (RFC 4737 defines packet reordering metric), and packet duplication measur= ement.

    • Then the draft states that

    The sender uses the UDP port number following the guidelines speci= fied in Section 6 in [RFC6335].

    Could you point to the guidelines that a user can use when selecti= ng a UDP port number of a test session?

    Gyan> Good point  

    <RG> Please see section 6 in [RFC6335= ]. We can cite the range which will be the same as used in [RFC8762]. This = was also discussed earlier.

    https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/i= ppm/ONYYhG9Y8sbiNO15bxWIRM9ymEE/

    GIM>> I've looked through Section 6 but I don'= t find anything specifically applicable to this draft we're discussing. If = the protocol to use UDP port numbers from the Dynamic ports range, a.k.a., = Private or Ephemeral, then it seems that stating that explicitly would be the best way. 

     

    <RG2> This would be, User P=
orts and Dynamic Ports ranges, which are defined in [RFC6335]. Yes, we can add this text.

     

    • At the closing of the paragraph, we read that

      The number of UDP ports with PM functionality needs to be m= inimized due
       to limited hardware resources.

    Does a UDP port number pose PM functionality? How it is assigned t= o the port number?

    <RG> UDP ports are user config= ured for delay and direct-mode loss PM as described in Section 3.1.<= o:p>

    GIM>> Can UDP port 862 be used? Also, requirin= g that the direct-loss measurement uses port number different from the one = used by a TWAMP-Test packet, in my opinion, is another indication that this= is the definition of a different from TWAMP Light PM OAM protocol.

     

    <RG2> If we add = a field in the packet then UDP port 862 may be used along with the new fiel= d. But it will require extra processing in hardware. It is better to use a different UDP port for processing efficien= cy in hardware.

     

    • Following the above-quoted text, in Section 3 is noted:

      •    For Performance Measurement, probe query and response= messages are
         sent as following:

      Could you clarify if the listed further procedures deviate from OW= AMP/TWAMP or follow procedures defined in RFC 4656 and RFC 5357 for Session= -Sender and Session-Reflector respectively?

      <RG> Probe messages follow the same p= rocedure as defined in RFC 4656 and RFC 5357.

    GIM>> All messages, i.e., TWAMP-Test packets a= s well as the defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm? 

     

    <RG2> Yes, unles= s otherwise specified in the draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm.

     

    • for both delay and loss measurements draft requires test packet be transmit= ted on a congruent path:

          the probe messages are sent on the
          congruent path of the data traffic by the sender node<= o:p>

    It is not clear what "the congruent path" means. The def= inition of congruency in geometry tells us that an object B is congrue= nt to object A if it has the same shape and size, but is allowed to flip, slide or turn. How a path can be congruent to another = path?

     

           Gyan> Agreed.  Th= e use of congruent in the context of pathing is confusing as the path being= addressed may not be reflected accurately by the term congruent.

     

    <RG2> As replied= above.

     

    <RG> There are many existing R= FCs that use term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without defining the= m. I suspect it is because it is well-known term. Having said that, we can add a reference for it if it helps reader.<= /span>

    GIM>> I cannot assume what was the context of = these RFCs. I've sketched a network diagram above to illustrate that a= "congruent path" may well lead to out-of-band path. Is that the = intention of the authors of the draft to use this protocol out-of-band?

     

    <RG2> As replied= above.

    • The last paragraph in Section 3 refers to work on iOAM:

      •    The In-Situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenan= ce (IOAM)
         mechanisms for SR-MPLS defined in [I-D.gandhi-mpls-ioam-sr] an= d for
         SRv6 defined in [I-D.ali-spring-ioam-srv6] are used to carry P= M
         information such as timestamp in-band as part of the data pack= ets,
         and are outside the scope of this document.

      Is iOAM in the scope of this specification? What are the relations= hips between iOAM and draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm?

      <RG> As mentioned in the draft, IOAM = is outside the scope.

    GIM>> Yes, but it appears that references to t= he two IOAM-related drafts have some purpose. What is it? How are these dra= fts related to draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm? 

     

    <RG2> We can rem= ove them if it is confusing. It is informational text (was added to address= a review comment).

     

    • Section 3.1 presents an example of the provisioning model but puts the defi= nition of the provisioning model outside the scope. Is there an accompanyin= g specification that defines the provisioning model that can be used in mul= ti-vendor deployment? Could that be YANG data model? What is the relationship with draft-= ietf-ippm-twamp-yang? Would the TWAMP YANG data model be augmented?

    <RG> Yes, this can be Yang mod= el. We can review draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yan= g and add any missing items in a s= eparate draft. We can also add a reference in this draft.

    GIM>> I think that theremust be some disc= ussion on how the new protocol is configured. If TWAMP YANG data model can = be augmented, I'd expect that being defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp= -srpm. But I couldn't find anything about the configuration of the protocol. 

     

    <RG2> The Yang m= odel extensions are not in the scope of this draft.

     

    • Section 4.1 states that a new message is introduced to perform the Loss Mea= surement in this protocol Why the capability of TWAMP to measure the loss i= n one-way and two-way is not sufficient?

    <RG> Existing TWAMP messages d= o not support =93direct-mode=94 loss measurement. We can add =93direct-mode= =94 in the text to clarify.

    GIM>> True, direct loss measurement, in fact, = is not active measurement and thus is outside the scope of Two-Way Active M= easurement Protocol (TWAMP). The direct-loss measurement is, by the definit= ion of RFC 7799, passive measurement method and fetching counters can be done using numerous methods, e.g., SNMP, Netc= onf.

     

    <RG2> RFC 7799 d= oes not say using Test-packets to collect counters for direct-mod loss meas= urement is passive.

     

    • Section 4.1.1 requires that

      The Destination UDP port cannot be used as Source port, sin= ce
       the message does not have any indication to distinguish betwee= n the
       query and response message.

    Does that imply that the Destination UDP port used for the Delay m= easurement is unique throughout the particular domain?

     

           Gyan> Good question&nb= sp;

    <RG2> Yes, it is unique in the= domain.

    <RG> This is user-defined and = is up to the user what UDP port to provision in a domain.=

    GIM>> So, can user configure a port number fro= m the User Ports range? Or, can the same port number be used on the same sy= stem for a number of test sessions? I find the use of UDP port numbers bein= g underspecified.

    • Section 4.1.2 of RFC 5357 does not define "the delay measurement messa= ge" but refers to the definition of the Session-Sender's test packet i= n RFC 4656 OWAMP. Note, that OWAMP and TWAMP are using a single test packet= format to perform both delay and packet loss measurement.

    <RG> Ok, we can update the tex= t in the next revision to indicate exact name from the RFC 4656. We can als= o add text to include synthetic packet loss.

    GIM>> I think that making it explicit would he= lp. Also, that will highlight what is being introduced by *twamp-srpm draft= s is, in fact, a new protocol to perform synthetic packet loss measurement.=  

     

    <RG2> No, it doe= s not change anything for synthetic packet loss.

    • Can you explain how "the DM probe query message contains the payload f= ormat defined in Section 4.2.1 of [RFC5357]" when the referenced secti= on of RFC 5357 defines the format of a Session-Reflector's test packet?

    <RG> We can update the text in= the next revision to indicate query format name from RFC 5357.=

    GIM>> I cannot find any reference to a query f= ormat in RFCs 4656/5357. Could you please quote from any of these documents= ?

     

    <RG2> It is test= -packet, we will use RFC 5357 term.

    • Can clarify the applicability of RFC 6038 and the symmetrical packet size? = Is it required? Can it be non-symmetrical?
    <RG> Yes. Please see section 4.1.1 and quoted bel=
ow:
    =93For symmetrical size query and respon=
se messages as defined in [RFC6038],=94

    GIM>> RFC 6038 defines an extension to RFC 535= 7 for OPTIONAL use of the symmetrical test packets. Since *-twamp-srpm prop= osals do not use TWAMP-Control protocol and Appendix I in RFC 5357 tells us= nothing about that either (in part because RFC 6038 came later), I don't see that there's any certainty in what is th= e sze of a test packet used in the direct-loss measurement. 

     

    <RG2> The test-p= ackets as defined in these existing RFCs are used for delay and synthetic p= acket loss. The direct-mode test-packets are defined in this draft.

    • Can you clarify the use of the timestamp format, NTP or PTPv2? It is not cl= ear which is the default, mandatory or optional.

    <RG> This is same as TWAMP. Th= ere is no change.

    GIM>> Per RFC 5357, TWAMP uses only NTP format= . Is that the case for *-twamp-srpm? 

     

    <RG2> No change = in existing in what is there in RFC 5357 and RFC 8186.

    • Also, is "hardware support in Segment Routing networks" of the PT= Pv2 format required, guaranteed, or something else?

    <RG> Hardware timestamps are r= ecommended for SR use-cases. We can change the sentence.<= /p>

    GIM>> Perhaps you can propose some text, that = would be helpful. 

     

    <RG2> Ack.<= /o:p>

    • Section 4.1.1.1 stated that

       A separate user-configured
       destination UDP port is used for the delay measurement in
       authentication mode due to the different probe message format.=

    Can that be interpreted that there could be concurrent authenticat= ed and unauthenticated test sessions using this protocol? Would different a= uthentication methods require using unique destination UDP port numbers?

    <RG> Yes, and Yes, and these a= re based on provisioning.

    GIM>> But that requirement is far outside the = TWAMP, as defined in RFC 5357.

     

    <RG2> Some Sessi= on-Sender can use authenticated and some not. It is part of RFC 5357.<= /o:p>

    • Section 4.1.2 by introducing the dedicated Loss measurement packet format, = effectively modifies the behavior defined in RFC 5357 for Session-Sender an= d Session-Reflector. But the document does not state that. Can you clarify = whether this specification changes the behavior of a Session-Sender and Session-Reflector as defined in RFC 4= 656 and RFC 5357 respectively for the support of packet loss measurement?

    <RG> The direct-mode loss defi= nes new procedure for sender/reflector to collect traffic counters, as oppo= sed to timestamp. The rest is the same as RFC 4656 and 5357.

    GIM>> I cannot agree with your statement "= ; The rest is the same as RFC 4656 and 5357" because the sender's dire= ct-loss format does not have Error Estimate field, Thus, a reflected packet= does not have Sender's Error Estimate, nor Error Estimate of the reflector. And that, in my opinion, is another clear indic= ation that *twamp-srpm drafts define a new protocol, separate from OWAMP/TW= AMP.

     

    <RG2> That field= is specific to timestamps and would not apply to counters for direct-mode = loss measurement.

     

    • And a similar question about the use of the separate UDP port number for th= e authenticated of the packet loss measurement.
    • A couple of question to the following text in Section 4.1.3:

       The local and remote IP
       addresses of the link are used as Source and Destination Addre= sses.
       They can also be IPv6 link local address as probe messages are= pre-
       routed.

      • What are the addresses of a link?

    <RG> I am assuming this well-k= nown (e.g. RFC 2328).

    GIM>> I am not familiar with the term "pr= e-routed". What does it mean? 

     

    <RG2> Ensure tha= t packets are routed over the link.

      • In which scenarios an IPv6 LLA can be used?

    <RG> I am assuming this is wel= l-known (e.g. RFC 5613).

    GIM>> So, LLA may be used as the source and de= stination addresses when testing an SR tunnel? 

     

    <RG2> As mention= ed this is for links.

     

      • Also, could the use of a routable destination IP address be used as a DDOS = attack vector? Consider the scenario when an attacker generates SR-encapsul= ated packets with the destination IP address other than any of the SR-termi= nating nodes. Such a packet will be routed, correct? That does appear as a security threat, would you agree= ?

    <RG> Absolutely do not agree. = It is no different than IP routed TWAMP packet as defined in [RFC5357].

    GIM>> You don't agree that the processing desc= ribed cannot happen because of laws of physics or it wouldn't happen becaus= e no one will think of that? If the latter, I think that that is security t= hreat.

     

    <RG2> There is n= o new threat like you have mentioned.

    • Section 4.1.4.2 references Figure 5 that, as I understand it, displays the&= nbsp;format of a probe query message. In figure two references to RFC 5357 = are provided - a section that references RFC 4656 OWAMP definition of the S= ession-Sender test packet, and a section that defines the Session-Reflector's reflected packet. Which of the two is= used for the delay measurement in the proposed protocol?

      • <RG> The probe query packet in= the Session-Sender text packet. We can update the name.<= /p>

      • Section 4.2.1 states that

         In one-way measurement mode, the probe response messa= ge as defined in
         Figure 6 is sent back out-of-band to the sender node ...<= /o:p>

      Could you clarify how the responder controls that the response pac= ket is sent not in-band but out-of-band?

      <RG> Please refer to section 3= .1 in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm.  This is existing behaviour for ou= t-of-band.

    GIM>> draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm does n= ot specify that it defines another new protocol OWAMP Light. And it is not = clear what you reference as "this is existing behavior". Is it to= reference behavior of TWAMP test packet? But the behavior of the TWAMP-Test protocol by itself is neither in-band, nor out-of-band. = It is the encapsulation of the TWAMP test packet that makes it either in-ba= nd or out-of-band. 

     

    <RG2> Right.

    GIM>> So, you believe that proposing to use th= e method described in RFC 8403 for the TWAMP packet is innovation? And what= are the benefits of using the TWAMP test packet format in the Loopback mod= e?

     

    <RG2> Please see= the draft.

    • What is the rationale for setting TTL/Hop Limit fields always to 255 for IP= v4, MPLS, and IPv6 (per Section 4.3.1)?

    <RG> This is as defined in Sec= tion 4.2 of RFC 5357 (Bullet 4).

    GIM>> I believe you've misunderstood the text = in RFC 5357. This bullet specifies the behavior of a Session-Reflector. It = is to try to read TTL value of the received TWAMP test packet and copy the = value in Sender TTL field of the reflected packet. If the Session-Reflector cannot access the TTL field, it MUST writ= e 255 in the Sender TTL field. So, I think that my questions still remains.=

     

    <RG2> Please see= Section 4.2.1 of RFC 5357.

    • Section 4.3.3 states that a zero-value UDP checksum may be used in some sce= narios. RFC 8085 allows that but in very specific cases that are documented= in detail in Section 3.4.1. Do you believe that the case of this protocol = checks all the requirements for allowing the use of Zero UDP checksum as specified in RFC 8085? Also, I be= lieve that allowing the use of Zero UDP checksum in some scenarios, this pr= otocol introduces a security threat that must be thoroughly analyzed in the= Security Considerations section.

    <RG> This is described in RFC = 6936. It will be very specific to the UDP port provisioned for TWAMP. We wi= ll add reference to RFC 6936 in Security Section.

    GIM>> I don't think that the reference is suff= icient for the Securit Consideration. I'd expect some extended discuss= ion on why using zero UDP header checksum is not a security threat for *twa= mp-srpm  protocol.

     

    <RG2> Please see= reply above.

    • Section 8 refers to "liveness monitoring of Links and SR Paths". = This appears as the replication of functionality provided by BFD/S-BFD prot= ocols. Is such comparison accurate? If it is, shouldn't the proposal be als= o reviewed by the BFD WG?

    <RG> TWAMP  probe message= s are used today for synthetic packet loss which can also be used to detect= connection loss (performance metric). The section simply highlights this obvious metric.

    GIM>> Can you point to a document that has def= ined "TWAMP  probe messages are used today for synthetic packet l= oss"? Also, which document defines loss of connectivity as a performan= ce metric? Does *twamp-srpm proposes to use the new protocol to detect the loss of path continuity?

     

    <RG2> For exampl= e Y.1731 has such notion of connection loss. TWAMP is used widely for synth= etic packet loss and is well-known. There is no change in protocol. This is reported metric.

    • I found the Security Section of the proposed protocol inadequately terse an= d missing very important threats that this protocol introduces in the netwo= rk.

    <RG> Other than referring RFC = 6936 for zero checksum what else is missing? Otherwise it is no different t= han RFC 8762 (STAMP).

    GIM>> I cannot see how RFC 8762 is relevant to= *twamp-srpm drafts. The use of source IP addresses, as mentioned above, ap= pears to be another security risk introduced by *-twamp-srpm drafts. <= o:p>

     

    <RG2> There is n= o mention of Source IP address above.

    • draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm

    As I understand it, the motivation for the Loss Measurement mode d= efined in this specification is to collect "in-profile" counters.= Is that correct? Do you see as essential for this mode that the query messages are in-band with the flow being profiled= ? In your opinion, how using an out-of-band method of collecting these coun= ters, e.g., by using ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884, c= ould affect the accuracy comparing with the method in this protocol? How the impact changes if extended ICMP messa= ges are in-band with the profiled flow?

     <RG2> Yes, they need to = be in-band with the flow, to collect the counter from the right forwarding paths for the flow. Discussion of using ICMP for= direct-mode loss measurement is outside the scope of this draft.

    <RG> As mentioned earlier, I a= m not sure extending ICMP to do PM is a good option here. Both TWAMP and OW= AMP are widely deployed today for delay and synthetic loss measurement.

    GIM>> What is the reason mentioning OWAMP? Are= drafts *-twamp-srpm extend RFC 4656 OWAMP as well? Also, what you see as t= he connection between using active measurement methods to measure packet de= lay and packet loss, on one hand, and collecting packet counters?

     

    <RG2> The Sessio= n-Sender test-packet is defined in OWAMP RFC and not TWAMP RFC. Other than = timestamp and its format vs. counter and its format, the messages and processing are the same.

     

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

     

     

    • Section 3.1 introduces the new field, Sender Control Code. The format of th= e packet, as I understand it, is presented in Figure 1. When comparing with= the format of Session-Sender's test packet defined in RFC 4656 OWAMP in Se= ction 4.1.2 I've noticed that there are no MBZ fields. Are these introduced by your proposal?
      • <= /ul>

      <RG> It shows the partial mess= age that has new field. We can update it to show the full message to avoid = such confusion.

      • Also, it appears that the Sequence Number field in TWAMP Session-Sender's t= est packet is absent in Figure 1. Is that intentional?

      <RG> It shows the partial mess= age that has new field. We can update it to show the full message to avoid = such confusion.

      Thanks,

      Rakesh

       

      Regards,

      Greg

       Thanks 

     

              Gyan 

     

    On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 5:51 AM James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futur= ewei.com> wrote:

    Dear WG:

     

    This message starts a 3 week WG adoption call= for document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr= aft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 ending Nove= mber 12th 2020. Please note that this document has several changes from v-10 that were requested by the SPR= ING and IPPM chairs. For this reason, the chairs have extended the adoption= call for an additional week to allow the WG enough time to review these ch= anges before deciding on WG adoption.

     

    Some background:  

     

    Several review comments were received previou= sly for document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr= aft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10. The SPRING and IPPM chairs considered those comments, and upon revie= w of this version of the document, determined the following:

     

     

    These conclusions were discussed with the authors of  https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-s= pring-twamp-srpm-10 the result of which is the publication of the following two documents:

     

     

    After review of the SPRING document please indicate support (or no= t) for WG adoption to the mailing list. Please also provide comments/reasons for that support = (or lack thereof) as silence will not be considered as consent.=

     

    Finally, the chairs would like to thank the a= uthors for their efforts in this matter.

     

    Thanks!

     

    Jim, Bruno, & Joel

     

    _______________________________________________
    spring mailing list
    spring@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

     

    _______________________________________________
    spring mailing list
    spring@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

    --

    =

    Gyan Mishra=

    Network Solutions Architect&nb= sp;

    M 301 502-1347
    13101 Columbia Pike 
    Silver Spring, MD<= /p>

     

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boundary="_000_DM6PR11MB311573C0EF2E032ED1F752C1BFF90DM6PR11MB3115namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR11MB3115.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: bff4696b-abf5-40fc-1e70-08d89215b00d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 26 Nov 2020 14:15:11.6751 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 5v7u40IcUCvI1EMjBjffH8zxW4u/Xq7nzmakw2cT3/7BJIU9NKIMBlEb6FBoohezQ1voAqtyuYo8T2/NZn+AdQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR11MB2874 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.11, xch-aln-001.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-7.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] FW: Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 14:15:33 -0000 --_000_DM6PR11MB311573C0EF2E032ED1F752C1BFF90DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Greg for your comments. Please see inline, I have added some replies= below inline with =85 From: Greg Mirsky Date: Thursday, November 19, 2020 at 12:28 PM To: Mach Chen Cc: Tianran Zhou , Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) , spring , IPPM Chairs , = spring-chairs@ietf.org , Tommy Pauly , IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Mach, thank you for your email. I've added my understanding of what has been prop= osed in-line tagged GIM>>. Regards, Greg On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 11:41 PM Mach Chen > wrote: Hi Tianran, Rakesh and Greg, Please see some responses inline with [Mach]=85 From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Tianran Zhou Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 1:33 PM To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) >; Greg Mirsky > Cc: spring >; IPPM Chairs >; spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy Pauly >; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Rakesh and Greg, I may not very clear about the context. Please allow me to jump in. It seems both of you make some valid point. Please see in line with . Cheers, Tianran From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rakesh Gandhi (r= gandhi) Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 7:41 AM To: Greg Mirsky > Cc: spring >; IPPM Chairs >; spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy Pauly >; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: Re: [spring] [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srp= m and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Greg, Thank you for your review and discussions on the drafts. This will help imp= rove the work on this important work. Please see replies inline with .. From: Greg Mirsky > Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 5:27 PM To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > Cc: Tommy Pauly >, IPPM Chairs >, spring-chairs@ietf.org >, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.o= rg) >, spring > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Rakesh, WG Chairs, and All, I've read the responses to my detailed comments. I don't think that only ad= ding references will solve the problems with the documents. If authors are = interested in addressing my comments, we can start working on solving them = one by one. As mentioned in previous replies, we can add references for the well-= known terms =93Links=94, =93Congruent Paths=94, =93SR Path=94. If you prefe= r, we can define them here. For Zero checksum field, we can add a reference= for the RFC 6936 in Security section and also add some text for it. Will b= e happy to work with you to address these. But I am very much concerned with the technical value of these drafts. And= here's why I feel that the proposed documents don't provide a sound techni= cal solution to the task of direct loss measurement. Please find my reasoni= ng explaining my opinion of the *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm: * What is being proposed in these drafts? Drafts *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm propose a new protocol to support dire= ct packet loss measurements. Note, that RFC 6374 includes a method for dire= ct loss measurement in MPLS networks that is applicable to the SR-MPLS envi= ronment. Also, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv defines an extension to RFC= 8762 STAMP, the Direct Measurement TLV, that supports the direct packet lo= ss measurement. STAMP and all its extensions are applicable in IPv6 network= s and, thus, can be used in the SRv6 domain. As mentioned in previous replies, both RFC 6374 (in Section 4.2) and = ITU Y.1731 (in Section 8.1) define stand-alone messages for collecting TX a= nd RX counters for direct-mode loss measurement. TWAMP/STAMP messages defin= ed in the drafts are equivalent of them that take advantage of the widely d= eployed TWAMP protocol and as well this same protocol can be deployed in IP= v4/IPv6/MPLS/SRv6/EVPN/etc. networks. I think RFC6374 for MPLS and Y.1731 make some noise here. The point = is if we need a new direct packet loss measurement for STAMP, when STAMP al= ready defined a Direct Measurement TLV (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr= aft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv). If current Direct Measurement TLV cannot f= ulfill some use case requirement, then how about proposing a new TLV. [Mach] Given that TWAMP does not support TLV, I assume that the discussion= s are mainly about draft*-stamp-srpm. GIM>> You've brought a very good question on how the return path, in case r= equired by the Sender Control Code, introduced in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-s= rpm, is specified? As you've pointed out, RFC 5357 does not use TLV extensi= ons. Should I assume that the return path, if required, provisioned through= the management plane? I think that that requires clarification. Here the return SR path may be dynamic and can often change (when ing= ress nodes re-compute SR paths). Using controller based signaling/provision= ing for it defeats the purpose of overcoming scale limitations and using TW= AMP Light. [Mach] In the case of direct packet loss measurement, draft-gandhi-ippm-st= amp-srpm assumes that marking-based solution (which can address the packet = out-ordering issue) is used, hence the block number is introduced. The bloc= k number is used to correlate the counters from the sender and reflector. T= he current direct loss measurement TLV may just apply to the scenario witho= ut packet out-ordering. GIM>> I agree with your observation on the purpose of the Block Number fiel= d in both TWAMP-Light and STAMP documents. In my understanding, the new pro= tocol may be also used to collect counters generated by methods other than = Alternate Marking. In that case, I assume, the value of Block Number may no= t convey any information. When TX and RX counters are collected by the TWAMP Light and STAMP ba= sed probe message defined in this draft, it=92s block number carried in the= message provides the context for the counters to be able to correlate the = TX and RX counters to measure the traffic loss =93at the Sender when the re= sponse is received=94. [Mach] In addition, whether to keep it as current design or to define a ne= w TLV for direct loss measurement can be debatable. GIM>> I agree with you. And that what I am proposing - review the requireme= nts, agree on requirements, and review the proposed solution based on these= requirements. Please see the previous reply sent: As TWAMP Light does not have a TLV, we need to define a stand-alone message= for direct-mode LM. STAMP is just the same message but fixed length, so th= is way both can interoperate and also we can leverage the message for both = of these protocols. For STAMP direct-mode LM TLV approach, some technical details are in the dr= aft as well: The STAMP message with a TLV for "direct measurement" can be used for combined Delay + Loss measurement [I-D.ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv]. However, in order to use only for loss measurement purpose, it requires the node to support the delay measurement messages and support timestamp for these messages (which may also require clock synchronization for one-way delay). Furthermore, for hardware-based cou= nter collection for direct-mode loss measurement, the optional TLV based processing adds unnecessary overhead (as counters are not at well-known locations). How the proposed method of direct packet loss is related to TWAMP light an= d STAMP? There's no apparent technical relationship between *-twamp-srpm and TWAMP L= ight, or *-stamp-srpm drafts and STAMP. Drafts do not extend or re-use the = basic mechanisms defined for TWAMP-Test and/or STAMP in their respective s= pecifications. Rather than that, drafts introduce a new query-response mode= and new formats of test packets that are decisively different from the for= mats defined in respective specifications. As a result, the new protocols a= re required to use different from used by TWAMP Light tr STAMP test session= UDP port numbers on the responder. And that is another clear indication th= at the proposed mechanism represents a new protocol, neither extends TWAMP = Light and/or STAMP nor updates their specifications. As mentioned in previous replies, other than timestamp vs. counter and= it=92s format, the messages and processing of them are the same for delay = and direct-mode loss measurement. * Is there any advantage in introducing a dedicated packet format for t= he direct packet loss in STAMP comparing to using the Direct Measurement TL= V extension? Though it appears the using a dedicated packet format instead of TLV is mor= e efficient, but the dedicated for the direct loss measurement format is li= kely to precede one or even two TLVs, Node Address TLV and Path TLV, define= d in draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. As a result, processing of the new packe= t with TLVs is unlikely to be more efficient and reduce the processing dela= y, than if using the Direct Measurement TLV as defined in draft-ietf-ippm-s= tamp-option-tlv. As mentioned in previous replies, this is explained in Section 1 of th= e draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm. For link loss measurement (direct-mode), there is = no TLV required for example. For direct-mode loss measurement in SR network= s, it would typically be forward direction packet loss measurement (and not= bidirectional). =95 What are the potential benefits of specifying the return path i= n the new test packet's Sender Control Code? Using the Sender Control Code may require the use of the additional TLV tha= t carries the return path information, Path TLV. If the ability to control = the return path is required that can be achieved by augmenting the STAMP YA= NG data model (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang) rather than including the Path T= LV in each test packet. Hence, there seem no technical requirements to intr= oduce the Sender Control Code field in the Base STAMP format defined in RFC= 8762. Per session basis between different sender nodes and this reflector no= de, some senders will request the replies in-band (e.g. for two-way mode). = Sessions are provisioned on the Sender nodes and reflector simply reflects = based on the received test-packet (e.g. for a bidirectional SR path). This = is also similar to as described Section 3.1 in RFC 6374, top of page 22. Th= ere is no need to create a such state for each session on the reflector nod= e and create a scale limitation. Recall that we are trying to avoid the sca= le limitation by eliminating the Control protocol signaling. I find some value to include the path TLV in wire. As Rakesh mentione= d, this can reduce the reflector configuration. But I am not convinced to i= ntroduce the sender control code field. It seems to me, the presence of pat= h TLV indicates the bidirectional congruent path. Vise versa. [Mach] Regarding how to specify the return path, the draft defines two ways= to achieve that, one is to use control code to direct whether the reflecte= d Test should be along the reverse path of a bidirectional path, this appli= es to both TWAMP (no TLV mechanisms) and STAMP. At the same time, in the ca= se of STAMP, it also defines the return path TLV to explicitly specify the = return path, which bring more options to specify the return path. Therefore= , I see benefit of the two ways. GIM>> I think you've pointed to some vagueness in the definition of a mecha= nism used to define the return path. My understanding is that if a response= required, the Return Path TLV must be present in a test packet. But, if TL= Vs are not used for TWAMP-like direct loss measurement, why not use the sam= e method to control the return path? I believe that consistency is a good q= uality of a protocol (yes, I see *-twamp-srpm and *-stmp-srpm as a single p= rotocol only presented as different entities). Yes, it is the intention to be consistent between the two drafts. TWA= MP Light and STAMP are using the same method using the =93Sender control co= de=94. Obviously STAMP provides additional capability to specify Return Pat= h via TLV. Both drafts explain the methods used. Thanks, Rakesh Best regards, Mach What is the relationship between the *-srpm drafts and BFD? Some text in the *-srpm drafts suggest that the proposed method can be used= to monitor for the loss of a path continuity. That may be viewed as an alt= ernative to the BFD protocol method for the detection of a network failure.= If the discussion of Loopback mode and monitoring of liveness remain in th= e drafts, it seems logical that the BFD WG and BFD WG's Chairs be made awar= e of the proposals. I didn't take the liberty of adding BFD WG or its Chair= s. I believe that decision to be made by the Chairs of IPPM And SPRING WGs. As mentioned in previous replies, STAMP/TWAMP test messages are also = used today for synthetic packet loss measurement which can be also used to = detect/monitor connection loss (performance metric). The draft simply highl= ights this obvious metric. This is also very similar to what is described i= n ITU Y.1731, Section 7.1. Thanks, Rakesh Regards, On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:10 PM Greg Mirsky > wrote: Hi Rakesh, thank you for your prompt response, much appreciated. I'll carefully read y= our responses. Looking forward to the continued discussion. Regards, Greg On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:07 PM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > wrote: Hi Greg, Thank you for your review comments. As mentioned in the IPPM session today= , the email response was sent as attachments, see archive blow: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/J503n-B2yOxF0urcHtGQKnqCRDE/ I am attaching them in word documents for the convenience. We can address = your comments below in the next revision of the document. Thanks, Rakesh From: Greg Mirsky > Date: Friday, November 13, 2020 at 10:09 AM To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > Cc: Tommy Pauly >, IPPM Chairs >, spring-chairs@ietf.org >, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Hi Rakesh, thank you for your response to my review. Please find my follow-up notes in= -lined below under the GIM>> tag. I hope you've found more detailed comments in the attachments (re-attached = for your convenience). I'm looking forward to reading your responses to the= detailed comments of all four drafts. Regards, Greg On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:11 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > wrote: Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and p= roviding the comments. Attached please find the email replies to your revi= ew sent earlier. The replies are copied inline below for convenience, tagg= ed with . From: ippm > Date: Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:48 AM To: Tommy Pauly > Cc: IPPM Chairs >, spring= -chairs@ietf.org >, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm and dra= ft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm Dear WG Chairs, Authors, and IPPM WG community, I've reviewed these drafts and have some comments to share. Below, please f= ind my thoughts on whether these drafts can be adopted. More specific comme= nts on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related draft and its a= ccompanying draft targetted to the SPRING WG) are in the attached documents= . Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluated by answers= to these three questions: =95 Is the document(s) reasonably well-written I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology from RFCs 4656= /5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender = and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", ar= e used in the documents without proper definitions. Other than that both dr= afts are readable and reasonably well-written. We can change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Refl= ector if it helps. GIM>> I believe that the consistency in terminology between the core RFC an= d what is intended as its extension is not only helpful to a reader but, to= the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications. There are many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340= , 8330, etc.) and term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without definin= g them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having said tha= t, we can add a reference for them if it helps. GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. I think I need to clarify my questi= ons. While a reference to any of RFCs you've mentioned, I don't think that = will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitalized while= referenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can these be= used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object? Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using the term "congruent path" = in these drafts (using ASCII-art): C---------D / \ A----B E-----F \ / G------------H Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the network as A-B-C-D-E-F= . From the definition of "congruent" as "two figures or objects are congrue= nt if they have the same shape and size, or if one has the same shape and s= ize as the mirror image of the other", path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to the= SR tunnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to monitor a flow over t= he SR tunnel is out-of-band and will not produce any meaningful measurement= . Of course, for the case of the extensions in drafts, direct loss measurem= ent can be performed, as information collected from node F. So, this exampl= e, in my opinion, illustrates two of my concerns: * using a congruent path for an active OAM protocol may produce informa= tion that does not reflect the condition experienced by the monitored flow.= It seems that the terminology should reflect the fundamental requirement f= or using active OAM to maintain the test packets in-band with the monitored= flow. * there are no technical requirements to justify using in-band active O= AM protocol for direct packet loss measurement. As demonstrated in this exa= mple, direct packet loss can be performed using an out-of-band mechanism, e= .g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG data model. * Does the document solve a real problem? No, it appears that both TWAMP and STAMP drafts define a new performance = measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/TWAMP and STAMP fun= ctionality in the respective drafts, and adding the ability to collect coun= ters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find sufficient technical argument= s for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing O= AM mechanisms like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884. There is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as synt= hetic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TW= AMP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packe= t loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a good opt= ion here. GIM>> I agree with the requirements you've listed (though the SPRING WG OAM= requirements document has been abandoned and expired 3+ years ago). I believe th= at there's no sufficient technical reason to use OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for excl= usive direct packet loss measurement. * Is the proposed solution technically viable? There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced by= the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the propose= d solutions. About your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security = section in RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Sect= ion as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in t= he domain by the operator for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other than this, I did = not find any other security related issue in your review. GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference sufficiently explains why the use= of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, does not create a = security risk for the protocol. Thanks, Rakesh Regards, Greg On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly > wrote: Hello IPPM, For the past few meetings, we=92ve had updates on the work in the SPRING WG= that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making exte= nsions to the base protocols, the chairs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it= would be best to split the documents and track the IPPM extension work in = the IPPM WG. As such, we are starting a Working Group call for adoption for draft-gandh= i-ippm-twamp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. The documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm-00 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00 The related SPRING documents are here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm-03 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 Please provide your feedback on these documents, and state whether or not = you believe the IPPM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. P= lease provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meeting week, on M= onday, November 16. Best, Tommy & Ian _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --_000_DM6PR11MB311573C0EF2E032ED1F752C1BFF90DM6PR11MB3115namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Thanks Greg for your c= omments. Please see inline, I have added some replies below inline= with <RG3>=85=

     

    From: Greg Mirsky <gre= gimirsky@gmail.com>
    Date: Thursday, November 19, 2020 at 12:28 PM
    To: Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com>
    Cc: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>, Rakesh Gandhi (rgan= dhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com>, spring <spring@ietf.org>, IPPM Chairs= <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org <spring-chairs@iet= f.org>, Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.or= g) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi Mach,

    thank you for your email. I've added my underst= anding of what has been proposed in-line tagged GIM>>.

     

    Regards,

    Greg

     

    On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 11:41 PM Mach Chen <mach.chen@huawei.com> wrote:=

    Hi Tianran, Rakesh and Greg,

     Please see some responses inline with [Mach]=85

    From:= ippm = [mailto:<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">ippm-bounces@ietf.= org] On Behalf Of Tianran Zhou
    Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 1:33 PM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi=3D    40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Greg Mirsky <gregimirs= ky@gmail.com>
    Cc: spring <    spring@iet= f.org&= gt;; IPPM Chairs <ippm-= chairs@ietf.org>; spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy P= auly <tpauly=3D40a= pple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

     Hi Rakesh and Greg,

    I may not very clear about the context. Please allow me to jump in.

    It seems both of you make some valid point.

    Please see in line with <ZTR>.

    Cheers,

    Tianran

    From:= sprin= g [mailto:spring-bounces= @ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi)
    Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 7:41 AM
    To: Greg Mirsky <    gregimirsky@gmail.com>
    Cc: spring <    spring@iet= f.org&= gt;; IPPM Chairs <ippm-= chairs@ietf.org>; spring-chairs@ietf.org; Tommy P= auly <tpa= uly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [spring] [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-tw= amp-srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

     Hi Greg,

    Thank you= for your review and discussions on the drafts. This will help improve the = work on this important work.

    Please se= e replies inline with <RG>..

     

     From: Greg Mirsky <= gregimirsky@gmail.com>
    Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 5:27 PM
    To: Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <    rgandhi@cisco.com>
    Cc: Tommy Pauly <    tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IPPM Chairs <ippm-cha= irs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org<= /span> <spring-chai= rs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org&= gt;, spring <spring@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] Call for adoption: draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm = and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm

    Hi Rakesh, WG Chairs, a= nd All,

    I've read the responses= to my detailed comments. I don't think that only adding references will so= lve the problems with the documents. If authors are interested in addressing my comments, we can start working on = solving them one by one.

     <RG> As mentioned in previous replies, we can add refere= nces for the well-known terms =93Links=94, =93Congruent Paths=94, =93SR Path=94. If y= ou prefer, we can define them here. For Zero checksum field, we can add a r= eference for the RFC 6936 in Security section and also add some text for it= . Will be happy to work with you to address these.

     But I am very much concerned= with the technical value of these drafts. And here's why I feel that the proposed documents don't provide a sound techni= cal solution to the task of direct loss measurement. Please find my re= asoning explaining my opinion of the *-twamp-srpm and *-stamp-srpm:

    • What is being proposed in these = drafts?

    Drafts *-twamp-srpm and= *-stamp-srpm propose a new protocol to support direct packet loss measurem= ents. Note, that RFC 6374 includes a method for direct loss measurement in MPLS networks that is applicable to the SR-= MPLS environment. Also, draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv defines an extensi= on to RFC 8762 STAMP, the Direct Measurement TLV, that supports the direct = packet loss measurement. STAMP and all its extensions are applicable in IPv6 networks and, thus, can be used = in the SRv6 domain.

     <RG> As mentioned in previous replies, both RFC 6374 (in= Section 4.2) and ITU Y.1731 (in Section 8.1) define stand-alone messages for collecting TX and RX counters for direct-mode los= s measurement. TWAMP/STAMP messages defined in the drafts are equivalent of= them that take advantage of the widely deployed TWAMP protocol and as well= this same protocol can be deployed in IPv4/IPv6/MPLS/SRv6/EVPN/etc. networks.

     <ZTR> I thi= nk RFC6374 for MPLS and Y.1731 make some noise here. The point is if we nee= d a new direct packet loss measurement for STAMP, when STAMP already defined a Direct Measurement TLV (https://datatracker.ietf.= org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv). If current Direct Measurement TLV cannot fulfill some use case requirement= , then how about proposing a new TLV.

     [Mach] Given that TWAMP does not support TLV, I assume that t= he discussions are mainly about draft*-stamp-srpm.

    GIM>> You've brought a very good question on h= ow the return path, in case required by the Sender Control Code, introduced= in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm, is specified? As you've pointed out,= RFC 5357 does not use TLV extensions. Should I assume that the return path, if required, provisioned through the manage= ment plane? I think that that requires clarification.

     

    <RG3> Here the r= eturn SR path may be dynamic and can often change (when ingress nodes re-co= mpute SR paths). Using controller based signaling/provisioning for it defea= ts the purpose of overcoming scale limitations and using TWAMP Light.

     [Mach] In the case of direct packet loss measurement, draft-g= andhi-ippm-stamp-srpm assumes that marking-based solution (which can address the packet out-ordering issue) is used, hence = the block number is introduced. The block number is used to correlate the c= ounters from the sender and reflector. The current direct loss measurement = TLV may just apply to the scenario without packet out-ordering.

    GIM>> I agree with your observation on the pur= pose of the Block Number field in both TWAMP-Light and STAMP documents. In = my understanding, the new protocol may be also used to collect counters gen= erated by methods other than Alternate Marking. In that case, I assume, the value of Block Number may not convey any infor= mation.

     

    <RG3> When TX an= d RX counters are collected by the TWAMP Light and STAMP based probe messag= e defined in this draft, it=92s block number carried in the message provide= s the context for the counters to be able to correlate the TX and RX counters to measure the traffic loss =93at the Sen= der when the response is received=94.

     [Mach] In addition, whether to keep it as current design or t= o define a new TLV for direct loss measurement can be debatable.  

    GIM>> I agree with you. And that what I am pro= posing - review the requirements, agree on requirements, and review the pro= posed solution based on these requirements. 

     

    <RG3> Please see= the previous reply sent:

    As TWAMP Light does no= t have a TLV, we need to define a stand-alone message for direct-mode LM. S= TAMP is just the same message but fixed length, so this way both can intero= perate and also we can leverage the message for both of these protocols.

     

    For STAMP direct-mode = LM TLV approach, some technical details are in the draft as well:

     

       The STAMP message with a TLV fo= r "direct measurement" can be used for

       combined Delay + Loss measureme= nt [I-D.ietf-ippm-= stamp-option-tlv].

       However, in order to use only f= or loss measurement purpose, it

       requires the node to support th= e delay measurement messages and

       support timestamp for these mes= sages (which may also require clock

       synchronization for one-way del= ay).  Furthermore, for hardware-based counter collection

       for direct-mode loss measuremen= t, the optional TLV based processing

       adds unnecessary overhead (as c= ounters are not at well-known

       locations).

     How the pro= posed method of direct packet loss is related to TWAMP light and STAMP?

    There's no apparent tec= hnical relationship between *-twamp-srpm and TWAMP Light, or *-stamp-srpm d= rafts and STAMP. Drafts do not extend or re-use the basic mechanisms defined for  TWAMP-Test and/or STAMP i= n their respective specifications. Rather than that, drafts introduce a new= query-response mode and new formats of test packets that are decisively di= fferent from the formats defined in respective specifications. As a result, the new protocols are required to use differe= nt from used by TWAMP Light tr STAMP test session UDP port numbers on the r= esponder. And that is another clear indication that the proposed mechanism = represents a new protocol, neither extends TWAMP Light and/or STAMP nor updates their specifications.<= o:p>

    <RG>= ; As mentioned in previous replies, other than timestamp vs. counter and it= =92s format, the messages and processing of them are the same for delay and direct-mode loss measure= ment.

    • Is there any advantage in introd= ucing a dedicated packet format for the direct packet loss in STAMP compari= ng to using the Direct Measurement TLV extension?

      • Though it appears the u= sing a dedicated packet format instead of TLV is more efficient, but the de= dicated for the direct loss measurement format is likely to precede one or even two TLVs, Node Address TLV and Pat= h TLV, defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm. As a result, processin= g of the new packet with TLVs is unlikely to be more efficient and reduce t= he processing delay, than if using the Direct Measurement TLV as defined in draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv.

      <RG>= ; As mentioned in previous replies, this is explained in Section 1 of the draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm. For link loss measurement (direct-mode), there is no TLV required for example. For = direct-mode loss measurement in SR networks, it would typically be forward direction packet loss measurement (and not bidi= rectional).

      =B7         What are the potential be= nefits of specifying the return path in the new test packet's Sender Contro= l Code?

      Using the Sender Contro= l Code may require the use of the additional TLV that carries the return pa= th information, Path TLV. If the ability to control the return path is required that can be achieved by augmenting = the STAMP YANG data model (draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang) rather than includin= g the Path TLV in each test packet. Hence, there seem no technical requirem= ents to introduce the Sender Control Code field in the Base STAMP format defined in RFC 8762.=

      <RG>= ; Per session basis between different sender nodes and this reflector node,= some senders will request the replies in-band (e.g. for two-way mode). Sessions are provisioned on the Sender nodes and = reflector simply reflects based on the received test-packet (e.g. for a bid= irectional SR path). This is also similar to as described Section 3.1 in RF= C 6374, top of page 22. There is no need to create a such state for each session on the reflector node and = create a scale limitation. Recall that we are trying to avoid the scale lim= itation by eliminating the Control protocol signaling.

      <ZTR> I find some= value to include the path TLV in wire. As Rakesh mentioned, this can reduc= e the reflector configuration. But I am not convinced to introduce the sender control code field. It seems to me, the = presence of path TLV indicates the bidirectional congruent path. Vise versa= .

      [Mach] Regarding how to specify the return path, the draft defines = two ways to achieve that, one is to use control code to direct whether the reflected Test should be along the reve= rse path of a bidirectional path, this applies to both TWAMP (no TLV mechan= isms) and STAMP. At the same time, in the case of STAMP, it also defines th= e return path TLV to explicitly specify the return path, which bring more options to specify the return pa= th. Therefore, I see benefit of the two ways.

    GIM>> I think you've pointed to some vagueness= in the definition of a mechanism used to define the return path. My unders= tanding is that if a response required, the Return Path TLV must be present= in a test packet. But, if TLVs are not used for TWAMP-like direct loss measurement, why not use the same method t= o control the return path? I believe that consistency is a good quality of = a protocol (yes, I see *-twamp-srpm and *-stmp-srpm as a single protocol on= ly presented as different entities).

     

    <RG3> Yes, it is= the intention to be consistent between the two drafts. TWAMP Light and STA= MP are using the same method using the =93Sender control code=94. Obviously= STAMP provides additional capability to specify Return Path via TLV. Both drafts explain the methods used.

     

    Thanks,

    Rakesh

     

     Best regards,

    Mach

     What is the= relationship between the *-srpm drafts and BFD?

    Some text in the *-srpm= drafts suggest that the proposed method can be used to monitor for th= e loss of a path continuity. That may be viewed as an alternative to the BFD protocol method for the detection of a networ= k failure. If the discussion of Loopback mode and monitoring of liveness re= main in the drafts, it seems logical that the BFD WG and BFD WG's Chairs be= made aware of the proposals. I didn't take the liberty of adding BFD WG or its Chairs. I believe that dec= ision to be made by the Chairs of IPPM And SPRING WGs.

     <RG> As mentioned in previous replies, STAMP/TWAMP test = messages are also used today for synthetic packet loss measurement which can be also used to detect/m= onitor connection loss (performance metric). The draft simply highlights th= is obvious metric. This is also very similar to what is described in ITU Y.= 1731, Section 7.1.

     Tha= nks,

    Rakesh

    Regards,

    On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 10:10 PM= Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

    Hi Rakesh,<= /o:p>

    thank you for your prom= pt response, much appreciated. I'll carefully read your responses. Loo= king forward to the continued discussion.

     Regards,

    Greg<= /p>

     On Sun, Nov 15, 2= 020 at 10:07 PM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <r= gandhi@cisco.com> wrote:

    Hi Greg,

     Thank you for you= r review comments. As mentioned in the IPPM session today, the email respon= se was sent as attachments, see archive blow:

    https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/J503n-B2yOxF0urcHtGQKnqCRDE/=

     I am attaching th= em in word documents for the convenience. We can address your comments belo= w in the next revision of the document.

     Thanks,

    Rakesh

    Hi Rakesh,<= /o:p>

    thank you for your resp= onse to my review. Please find my follow-up notes in-lined below under the = GIM>> tag.

    I hope you've found mor= e detailed comments in the attachments (re-attached for your convenience). = I'm looking forward to reading your responses to the detailed comments of all four drafts.

    Regards,

    Greg<= /p>

    Thank you= Greg for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and providing = the comments.  Attached please find the email replies to your review sent earlier.  The replies are copied in= line below for convenience, tagged with <RG00>. 

    Dear WG Chairs, Authors= , and IPPM WG community,

    I've reviewed these dra= fts and have some comments to share. Below, please find my thoughts on whet= her these drafts can be adopted. More specific comments on each pair of drafts (TWAMP-related and STAMP-related = draft and its accompanying draft targetted to the SPRING WG) are = in the attached documents.

    Usually, the bar for the adoption o= f a document can be evaluated by answers to these three questions:

    =B7  Is the document(s) reasonably well-wr= itten

    I've got surprised that the drafts = don't use the terminology from RFCs 4656/5357 and RFC 8762, and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender and Sessi= on-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", a= re used in the documents without proper definitions. Other than that both d= rafts are readable and reasonably well-written.

    <RG00&= gt; We can change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to Session-Reflect= or if it helps. 

    GIM>> I believe t= hat the consistency in terminology between the core RFC and what is intende= d as its extension is not only helpful to a reader but, to the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specific= ations.

    <RG00&= gt; There are many existing RFCs that use term Link (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340, 8= 330, etc.) and term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without defining them. I suspect it is because these are well-= known terms. Having said that, we can add a reference for them if it helps.=

    GIM>> Thank you f= or listing these RFCs. I think I need to clarify my questions. While a refe= rence to any of RFCs you've mentioned, I don't think that will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link"= ; is capitalized while referenced RFCs used the lower case form for the ter= m "link". Can these be used interchangeably? Do they refer to the= same network object?

    Now I'll try to illustr= ate my concern with using the term "congruent path" in these draf= ts (using ASCII-art):

          &n= bsp;                C---------D

          &n= bsp;              /      =            \

          &n= bsp;     A----B              &= nbsp;    E-----F

          &n= bsp;              \      =             /

          &n= bsp;              G------------H<= o:p>

    Consider an SR tunnel f= rom A to F that traverses the network as A-B-C-D-E-F. From the definition o= f "congruent" as "two figures or objects are congruent if they have the same shape and size, or if one has the same= shape and size as the mirror image of the other", path A-B-G-H-E-F is= congruent to the SR tunnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to moni= tor a flow over the SR tunnel is out-of-band and will not produce any meaningful measurement. Of course, for the case o= f the extensions in drafts, direct loss measurement can be performed, as in= formation collected from node F. So, this example, in my opinion, illustrat= es two of my concerns:

    • using a congruent path for an ac= tive OAM protocol may produce information that does not reflect the conditi= on experienced by the monitored flow. It seems that the terminology should = reflect the fundamental requirement for using active OAM to maintain the test packets in-band with the monitor= ed flow.
    • there are no technical requireme= nts to justify using in-band active OAM protocol for direct packet loss mea= surement. As demonstrated in this example, direct packet loss can be perfor= med using an out-of-band mechanism, e.g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications based on YANG data model.=

     

    • Does the document solve a real problem?

    No, it appears that  both TWAMP and STAMP drafts &nb= sp;define a new performance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP/= TWAMP and STAMP functionality in the respective drafts, and adding the abil= ity to collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find = sufficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the existing OAM mechanisms= like ICMP multi-part message extension per RFC 4884.

     <RG00> There is a requirement to measure performance del= ay as well as synthetic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed= for performance delay and synthetic packet loss measurement today. I am no= t sure extending ICMP for LM is a good option here.

    GIM>> I agree wit= h the requirements you've listed (though the SP= RING WG OAM requirements document has been abandoned and expired 3+ years ago). I believe that there's no sufficient technical reason = to use OWAMP/TWAMP/STAMP for exclusive direct packet loss measurement. = ;

    • Is the proposed solution technically viable?=

    There are too many unaddressed aspe= cts, particularly the risk introduced by the protocols on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the proposed solutions.

     <RG00> About your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security section in RFC 6936. We wi= ll add reference to this RFC in our Security Section as well. This is only = specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in the domain by the operator = for STAMP or TWAMP Light. Other than this, I did not find any other security related issue in your review.=

    GIM>> I don't thi= nk that a mere reference sufficiently explains why the use of zero UDP chec= ksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, does not create a security risk for the protocol.

     Tha= nks,

    Rakesh

     Regards,

    Greg 

    On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at= 11:35 AM Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D4= 0apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

    Hello IPPM,=

    For the past few meetin= gs, we=92ve had updates on the work in the SPRI= NG WG that was using STAMP and TWAMP. Since those documents ended up making extensions to the base protocols, the chai= rs of SPRING and IPPM decided that it would be best to split the documents = and track the IPPM extension work in the IPPM WG.

     As such, we are s= tarting a Working Group call for adoption for draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-= srpm and draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm.

     Please provide yo= ur feedback on these documents, and state whether or not you believe the IP= PM WG should adopt this work by replying to this email. Please provide your feedback by the start of the IETF 109 meet= ing week, on Monday, November 16.

     Best,=

    Tommy & Ian<= o:p>

    _______________________= ________________________
    ippm mailing list
    ippm@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailma= n/listinfo/ippm

    --_000_DM6PR11MB311573C0EF2E032ED1F752C1BFF90DM6PR11MB3115namp_-- From nobody Thu Nov 26 12:15:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8700D3A09AC; Thu, 26 Nov 2020 12:14:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZpjNt_Wss_IP; Thu, 26 Nov 2020 12:14:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x129.google.com (mail-lf1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D06803A09B7; Thu, 26 Nov 2020 12:14:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x129.google.com with SMTP id s30so4108692lfc.4; Thu, 26 Nov 2020 12:14:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZqfUjaNXSLu8vVP8MueSMiKsIecfshWolDSACWvKstE=; b=Z3Kx+gGPUkAMoyWPHAG6Tz6WFBBB8TGqyUhD5WgCEMV2/AkVdPxbEIeC6U8AQONcbM I8sZwCFgyJQHo1CbAeq/la1VvANi+mF7ikuF1UtURjwFLJQMucyChRLmkI18Cb2zsKk9 LHQB0Bm0LLnTNN5P7AwDjbBUrAFE3RaPqoqRvfz0tN26/uK5DQyAgVtlIqGJJpbcs8dE HINPzXOZLA46XuN+82qtuFCLQDPsb2Sr4hEe+71Vj4ulwocPx5yOqjZKDnx96eGyBN5w 64L5Q+kaAOmOb1SNxE104aLsosq9f1T4ApT4Y7ctwr4msjIJO6GG4YmVPLjSHewLsIgf qPMw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZqfUjaNXSLu8vVP8MueSMiKsIecfshWolDSACWvKstE=; b=ERNtrN0HpPUO3lkxP65LZ/ZCAGR0B3x+14LuUkAO6Vk2Q3ezcze4HyX47iyy069rY8 sRhifT/DKqRDC6SvfUVQfciw+hO6c//IgaTLkE5HaVlxLZhBC+60tKGVTk57Rh0ZiA4b NzZlHe5vlzJxdkCN5feRn0gEKuqQSoiV8W8nDv6/BRaAx2Jcmom2R2Wh9ofxxM8sq+O9 bnCwAPlo9oUdsMUxZwwS1MPfnwemPUTlarBLaDZfYk5z/zERIhzy/y+gO+snA43Fxcn9 a79lsa1jv/uz0dlfzK6Z7RLD3hhC2TNIhB3dPm2vRetimyMy5rZ41JgSSgK1ofO9xrvk 7l2g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533uA76vEeMeqm1NYVwUhJ4TVE5YOCjGxqbbubVbMnSD33JAx57I A3jn/3BUKHY3/JJ36Lb/9ZuVEY+Hs5IHPNiwBTA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw82+tP4f58IojC0UsdkqJ01HnD98GjWQJJhllvV693m5mlMz5EA4NIWfIHJhJ2eLnK/koXc+pwU3pIhfSrMsA= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:5503:: with SMTP id j3mr2034035lfk.94.1606421694787; Thu, 26 Nov 2020 12:14:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160624221011.1004.4337499034959566457@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 12:14:42 -0800 Message-ID: To: Tal Mizrahi Cc: last-call@ietf.org, "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" , IPPM Chairs , draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org, IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007a338c05b5083223" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Last Call: (Data Fields for In-situ OAM) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 20:15:00 -0000 --0000000000007a338c05b5083223 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Tal, thank you for your careful consideration of my comments and detailed responses. Please find my follow-up notes in-line below under the GIM>> tag. Regards, Greg On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 1:56 AM Tal Mizrahi wrote: > Hi Greg, > > Thanks for the comments. > Please see my comments below, marked [TM]. > > Thanks, > Tal. > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 11:30 PM Greg Mirsky > wrote: > > > > Dear All, > > I have several comments related to the security aspects of this > specification: > > > > although this draft does not define network-specific encapsulation of > IAOM data, it would the right place to introduce a generic method of IAOM > data integrity protection. As noted in the Security Considerations section, > IOAM trace options and collected information may become the target of a > malicious attack. Protecting the integrity of data with HMAC seems like the > right option. It seems reasonable that the text used to calculate HMAC > includes in addition to the IOAM trace option header and an IOAM node data > field that uniquely identify the source of the packet that includes IOAM > trace. For example, in an IP network, the IP source address can be > concatenated with the IAOM trace option header. The integrity of each IAOM > node data record can also be protected by HMAC. The data record can be > concatenated with, for example, the IOAM option header to form the text > used in the calculation of the HMAC. While the detailed construction of the > text used in HMAC calculation could be provided in network-specific > documents, it seems appropriate to require the optional use of HMAC for the > integrity protection of the IOAM option header and IOAM data record in this > document. > > [TM] Integrity protection is an important security consideration. > Thanks to your previous comments about this issue we have added the > following text to the security considerations section: > > In particular, these threats are applicable by compromising > the integrity of IOAM data, either by maliciously modifying IOAM > options in transit, or by injecting packets with maliciously > generated IOAM options > > Specifically, implementing HMAC by hardware devices such as switches > and routers in wire speed may be challenging. > My feeling is that even if we decided to define an HMAC, it would end > up being something that is not implemented by most vendors. > GIM>> I appreciate the proposed text but am not convinced that the limitations of the current HW platforms are a factor that should limit our definition of the comprehensive and secure protocol. I agree, there's always a difference between the specification of a protocol and its implementation. How a vendor decides to implement and how an operator chooses to deploy the protocol is outside of our control as a group the defines the protocol specification. But I believe that the proper protocol specification must include security mechanisms that protect data integrity. Whether the protocol also protects the privacy of the data or relies on the security mechanisms outside of the protocol, in my opinion, is an open question but it should be explained in the protocol specification. > > I would suggest to consider a new IOAM option that incorporates an > HMAC, which can be used alongside the conventional trace options. This > would allow an optional integrity protection capability for those > specific implementations that require it. This new option could be > defined in a new draft, allowing the data draft to proceed to > publication. > GIM>> I think that proceeding without addressing the essential security issue of the protocol might be premature and may produce implementations that are vulnerable to attacks. > > > > I have some concern over using the Checksum Complement in the IPv6 > network. RFC 6936 provided us with the most detailed analysis for using > zero UDP checksum in the IPv6 network. As I understand the purpose of the > Checksum Complement, its security impact is similar to the one of using > zero UDP checksum. I think that the use of Checksum Complement in the IPv6 > network should be explicitly discussed in the document. I'd recommend > adding the reference to RFC 6936 and provide arguments supporting the use > of the Checksum Complement in the IPv6 network. > > [TM] The Checksum Complement is a field that simplifies the checksum > update for hardware switches/routers. Unlike zero checksum, the > destination *does* verify the checksum when a checksum complement is > used. Therefore, in my opinion the zero checksum considerations are > not relevant in this context. > From a security perspective, I do not think a Checksum Complement has > any security implications. I believe it was phrased well in RFC 7820 > (OWAMP/TWAMP Checksum Complement): > > It is important to emphasize that the scheme described in this > document does not increase the protocol's vulnerability to MITM > attacks; a MITM attacker who maliciously modifies a packet and its > Checksum Complement is logically equivalent to a MITM attacker who > modifies a packet and its UDP Checksum field. > GIM>> As I recall, one of the reasons RFC 7820 was published as Experimental was concern about the security impact of the proposed mechanism. If my recollection of the discussion of the security impact RFC 7820 may have in a network is accurte, I'll maintain my concern regarding the Checksum Complement option in IOAM. > > > > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 10:25 AM The IESG > wrote: > >> > >> > >> The IESG has received a request from the IP Performance Measurement WG > (ippm) > >> to consider the following document: - 'Data Fields for In-situ OAM' > >> as Proposed Standard > >> > >> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits > final > >> comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the > >> last-call@ietf.org mailing lists by 2020-12-08. Exceptionally, > comments may > >> be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the > beginning > >> of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. > >> > >> Abstract > >> > >> > >> In-situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (IOAM) records > >> operational and telemetry information in the packet while the packet > >> traverses a path between two points in the network. This document > >> discusses the data fields and associated data types for in-situ OAM. > >> In-situ OAM data fields can be encapsulated into a variety of > >> protocols such as NSH, Segment Routing, Geneve, IPv6 (via extension > >> header), or IPv4. In-situ OAM can be used to complement OAM > >> mechanisms based on e.g. ICMP or other types of probe packets. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> The file can be obtained via > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data/ > >> > >> > >> The following IPR Declarations may be related to this I-D: > >> > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3526/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> ippm mailing list > >> ippm@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > --0000000000007a338c05b5083223 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Tal,
    thank you for your careful co= nsideration of my comments and detailed responses. Please find my follow-up= notes in-line below under the GIM>> tag.

    Re= gards,
    Greg

    On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 1:56 AM Tal Mizrahi <= tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
    Hi Gr= eg,

    Thanks for the comments.
    Please see my comments below, marked [TM].

    Thanks,
    Tal.



    On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 11:30 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
    >
    > Dear All,
    > I have several comments related to the security aspects of this specif= ication:
    >
    > although this draft does not define network-specific encapsulation of = IAOM data, it would the right place to introduce a generic method of IAOM d= ata integrity protection. As noted in the Security Considerations section, = IOAM trace options and collected information may become the target of a mal= icious attack. Protecting the integrity of data with HMAC seems like the ri= ght option. It seems reasonable that the text used to calculate HMAC includ= es in addition to the IOAM trace option header and an IOAM node data field = that uniquely identify the source of the packet that includes IOAM trace. F= or example, in an IP network, the IP source address can be concatenated wit= h the IAOM trace option header. The integrity of each IAOM node data record= can also be protected by HMAC. The data record can be concatenated with, f= or example, the IOAM option header to form the text used in the calculation= of the HMAC. While the detailed construction of the text used in HMAC calc= ulation could be provided in network-specific documents, it seems appropria= te to require the optional use of HMAC for the integrity protection of the = IOAM option header and IOAM data record in this document.

    [TM] Integrity protection is an important security consideration.
    Thanks to your previous comments about this issue we have added the
    following text to the security considerations section:

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0In particular, these threats are applicable by compromising =C2=A0 =C2=A0the integrity of IOAM data, either by maliciously modifying IO= AM
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0options in transit, or by injecting packets with maliciously =C2=A0 =C2=A0generated IOAM options

    Specifically, implementing HMAC by hardware devices such as switches
    and routers in wire speed may be challenging.
    My feeling is that even if we decided to define an HMAC, it would end
    up being something that is not implemented by most vendors.
    GIM>> I appreciate the proposed text but am not convinced that = the limitations of the current HW platforms are a factor that should limit = our definition of the comprehensive and secure protocol. I agree, there'= ;s always a difference between the specification of a protocol and its impl= ementation. How a vendor decides to implement and how an operator chooses t= o deploy the protocol is outside of our control as a group the defines the = protocol specification. But I believe that the proper protocol specificatio= n must include security mechanisms that protect data integrity. Whether the= protocol also protects the privacy of the data or relies on the security m= echanisms outside of the protocol, in my opinion, is an open question but i= t should be explained in the protocol specification.

    I would suggest to consider a new IOAM option that incorporates an
    HMAC, which can be used alongside the conventional trace options. This
    would allow an optional integrity protection capability for those
    specific implementations that require it. This new option could be
    defined in a new draft, allowing the data draft to proceed to
    publication.
    GIM>> I think that proceeding witho= ut addressing the essential security issue of the protocol might be prematu= re and may produce implementations that are vulnerable to attacks.


    > I have some concern over using the Checksum Complement in the IPv6 net= work. RFC 6936 provided us with the most detailed analysis for using zero U= DP checksum in the IPv6 network. As I understand the purpose of the Checksu= m Complement, its security impact is similar to the one of using zero UDP c= hecksum. I think that the use of Checksum Complement in the IPv6 network sh= ould be explicitly discussed in the document. I'd recommend adding the = reference to RFC 6936 and provide arguments supporting the use of the Check= sum Complement in the IPv6 network.

    [TM] The Checksum Complement is a field that simplifies the checksum
    update for hardware switches/routers. Unlike zero checksum, the
    destination *does* verify the checksum when a checksum complement is
    used. Therefore, in my opinion the zero checksum considerations are
    not relevant in this context.
    >From a security perspective, I do not think a Checksum Complement has
    any security implications. I believe it was phrased well in RFC 7820
    (OWAMP/TWAMP Checksum Complement):

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0It is important to emphasize that the scheme described in this=
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0document does not increase the protocol's vulnerability to= MITM
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0attacks; a MITM attacker who maliciously modifies a packet and= its
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0Checksum Complement is logically equivalent to a MITM attacker= who
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0modifies a packet and its UDP Checksum field.
    =
    GIM>> As I recall, one of the reasons RFC 7820 was published as = Experimental was concern about the security impact of the proposed mechanis= m. If my recollection of the discussion of the security impact RFC 7820 may= have in a network is accurte, I'll maintain my concern regarding the C= hecksum Complement option in IOAM.



    >
    > Regards,
    > Greg
    >
    > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 10:25 AM The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org> wrote:=
    >>
    >>
    >> The IESG has received a request from the IP Performance Measuremen= t WG (ippm)
    >> to consider the following document: - 'Data Fields for In-situ= OAM'
    >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0<draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-11.txt> as Proposed S= tandard
    >>
    >> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solic= its final
    >> comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the >> last-call@= ietf.org mailing lists by 2020-12-08. Exceptionally, comments may
    >> be sent to iesg= @ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning
    >> of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.
    >>
    >> Abstract
    >>
    >>
    >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In-situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (= IOAM) records
    >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 operational and telemetry information in the packet w= hile the packet
    >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 traverses a path between two points in the network.= =C2=A0 This document
    >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 discusses the data fields and associated data types f= or in-situ OAM.
    >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In-situ OAM data fields can be encapsulated into a va= riety of
    >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 protocols such as NSH, Segment Routing, Geneve, IPv6 = (via extension
    >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 header), or IPv4.=C2=A0 In-situ OAM can be used to co= mplement OAM
    >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mechanisms based on e.g.=C2=A0 ICMP or other types of= probe packets.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> The file can be obtained via
    >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc= /draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data/
    >>
    >>
    >> The following IPR Declarations may be related to this I-D:
    >>
    >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3526/
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> _______________________________________________
    >> ippm mailing list
    >>     ippm@ietf.org
    >>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
    --0000000000007a338c05b5083223-- From nobody Fri Nov 27 21:11:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB5E53A0F35; Fri, 27 Nov 2020 21:11:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3f01jZf3J14y; Fri, 27 Nov 2020 21:11:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 70FBD3A0EC2; Fri, 27 Nov 2020 21:11:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from kduck.mit.edu ([24.16.140.251]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 0AS5BE7j029698 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 28 Nov 2020 00:11:19 -0500 Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 21:11:14 -0800 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Greg Mirsky Cc: Tal Mizrahi , last-call@ietf.org, "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" , IPPM Chairs , draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org, IETF IPPM WG Message-ID: <20201128051114.GO34187@kduck.mit.edu> References: <160624221011.1004.4337499034959566457@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Last-Call] Last Call: (Data Fields for In-situ OAM) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 05:11:25 -0000 Hi Greg, Tal, On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 12:14:42PM -0800, Greg Mirsky wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 1:56 AM Tal Mizrahi > wrote: > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 11:30 PM Greg Mirsky > > wrote: > > > > I would suggest to consider a new IOAM option that incorporates an > > HMAC, which can be used alongside the conventional trace options. This > > would allow an optional integrity protection capability for those > > specific implementations that require it. This new option could be > > defined in a new draft, allowing the data draft to proceed to > > publication. > > > GIM>> I think that proceeding without addressing the essential security > issue of the protocol might be premature and may produce implementations > that are vulnerable to attacks. Thanks for raising this topic. Based on the discussion so far and skimming the first few sections of the draft, I expect that I would put a discuss ballot in to ensure the availability of a security mechanism such as this, which in effect would negate the intent to "allow the data draft to proceed to publication". That said, my stance could change as the thread continues or when I take a closer look at the whole document, so it is okay (from my point of view) if you (Tal) choose to wait and see if this does end up being a discuss point. That said, I'd of course prefer if you and Greg can find a solution and get it into place now :) Thanks, Ben From nobody Mon Nov 30 08:30:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 957073A0E31; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 08:30:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5uGpuxh-vm0q; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 08:30:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com (mail-lj1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4FD473A0E24; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 08:30:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id 142so18810268ljj.10; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 08:30:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4SdX+rqgQnpvAw8tP+WfjPTKrBzo+zhTSlLLmInIxCQ=; b=r3NhpmeRGkVzzeoJvLL07BX8xClFk8TE3Lg+Oc+rQw/Ig9/+5ddEfe0Owtqn51NtUV FFE4DiI4gaqXKatJJX5s/p13Ges2RL1cOhkcAqR8nFbPYyC+mumU495E+YwJFJpcGY8x duyxC9KXwPfA+HN98GyWDESBc+B+PzLlqkHwdsT963guKkCCGS3G8c0IAIjUkORsORa7 jxk94r7b0aIKH+i4hrsOsewG4W6eh/zGVWPThym6xd/yyjcq/huyLucluIk3dq4Y+Git TEfpm3aseRwq9p+2XqSVLcj4IOKP9CZfS1Ic9vAUWIisXkngI5hYbrYcNlfCqbyPdF90 ioug== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4SdX+rqgQnpvAw8tP+WfjPTKrBzo+zhTSlLLmInIxCQ=; b=QcX97groi+Bg6ypWI08B8DFH55V/9nj79N+jNWdZ67yVHfTTBy4DcxhLoEYr4rTFQJ 75+wayIwEMYQCXWPqnJLkfa+L1CNwMRDZ1LYoS9L1Rz3WySL+Pvis2GaY02zD6Wisk45 V2YOA6bVUL7maSlCu9PoIgZvFtZLTzm856fkqA2Y+89mRaXC4s+IsjyLPfbziqUNdL8+ 8lawa43kMU5fd21qqjK9GUDB7Ko8uqaOWPt4TK+LmAm8fVv1995pwW3k4w6zMTvyyM3S BeR6OMKY0GzMwpyfauBES/eXbHQwp+svvovU6pFRSv3WhxDS9iftyPL/6fcmMfWoB4ee G/hw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5338U/I+Tso4aih9xD3WsDI+xHhjKH8Fu91sARMnn9qNAXP6UrKR LMpapPGGPw2D43tgTUTNcNIMyNhdYdNA5oekpd4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxI+sjgfHLAMWZXrGAW7aNpmQc8AWa5TMEVCwCwUBpiAxHxBvkI4/nq9vnD4TbZ8y2blYaaK1ZYUHzvGcronTE= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9694:: with SMTP id q20mr10300770lji.279.1606753804082; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 08:30:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 08:29:51 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi)" Cc: Gyan Mishra , IETF IPPM WG , James Guichard , "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" , "spring@ietf.org" , Greg Mirsky Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bbe3f005b55585a4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] WG Adoption Call for https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 16:30:14 -0000 --000000000000bbe3f005b55585a4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Rakesh, thank you for the continued discussion. I appreciate your responses. I am still not convinced of the value these documents add. Please find my follow-up notes in-line below under the GIM2>> tag. Regards, Greg On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 8:19 PM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) wrote: > Thank you Gyan and Greg for your review comments and discussions. Please > see inline replies with =E2=80=A6 > > > > > > *From: *Gyan Mishra > *Date: *Wednesday, November 25, 2020 at 12:34 PM > *To: *Greg Mirsky > *Cc: *IETF IPPM WG , James Guichard < > james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>, Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) < > rgandhi@cisco.com>, ippm-chairs@ietf.org , > spring-chairs@ietf.org , spring@ietf.org < > spring@ietf.org> > *Subject: *Re: [spring] [ippm] WG Adoption Call for > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 > > > > Hi Rakesh > > > > I have been following this thread and to help progress the discussion I > would like to provide some comments in-line Gyan> > > > > Thanks > > > > Gyan > > > > On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 7:08 PM Greg Mirsky wrote= : > > Hi Rakesh, > > thank you for the response to my comments. Please find my follow-up notes > in-lined below under the GIM>> tag. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 7:33 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) > wrote: > > Thank you Greg for taking time for thoroughly reviewing the documents and > providing the comments. > > Please see replies inline with =E2=80=A6 > > > > *From: *ippm > *Date: *Friday, November 6, 2020 at 11:18 AM > *To: *James Guichard > *Cc: *spring@ietf.org , ippm-chairs@ietf.org < > ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org , > IETF IPPM WG > *Subject: *Re: [ippm] [spring] WG Adoption Call for > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 > > Dear Chairs of the SPRING and IPPM WGs, Authors, et al., > > I've found myself in the situation when two related drafts are in the WG > APs in the SPRING and IPPM WG (with the possibility that expertise from t= he > third WG, BFD WG, might be desirable to review the "liveness monitoring")= . > Because these drafts are closely related, I've decided to combine my > questions and comments in a single thread. I hope that would be acceptabl= e > and considered by the SPRING WG as well as IPPM WG. > > Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can be evaluated by > answers to these three questions: > > - Is the document(s) reasonably well-written > > I've got surprised that the drafts don't use the terminology from RFC 465= 6 > and 5357 and introduce their own terminology for Session-Sender and > Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", are > used in the documents without proper definitions. Other than that both > drafts are readable and reasonably well-written. > > We are ok to change Sender to Session-Sender and Reflector to > Session-Reflector if it helps. > > > > GIM>> I believe that the consistency in terminology between the core RFC > and what is intended as its extension is not only helpful to a reader but= , > to the best of my understanding, is required for IETF specifications. But= I > don't think that switching the terminology will fix the fundamental issue > with the proposal. The operation that is required from the remote entity, > whether it is referred to as responder or Session-Reflector, is not defin= ed > in Appendix I of RFC 5357, nor in RFCs 4656 or 5357 itself. In my opinion= , > the behavior required, as described in the draft, cannot be characterized > as an extension of OWAMP, TWAMP, or TWAMP Light but presents a completely > new protocol that, if there's a need in the new PM OAM protocol, must be > properly defined. > > > > Gyan> I am in complete agreement with Greg about terminology and > consistency. The problem with inconsistency is that that you are not > following well known normative references required to understand the > specification leading to confusion and misunderstanding of the > specification. The goal should be clear and concise in terminology and > verbiage. > > > > Agree. Will address the terms from RFC 5357 in the next revision. > > There are many existing RFCs that use term =E2=80=9CLink=E2=80=9D (e= .g. RFC 5613, > 5340, 8330, etc.) and term =E2=80=9CCongruent Path=E2=80=9D (e.g. RFC 592= 1, 6669) without > defining them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having > said that, we can add a reference for them if it helps. > > GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. I think I need to clarify my > questions. While a reference to any of RFCs you've mentioned, I don't thi= nk > that will address my concern. In reviewed documents, "Link" is capitalize= d > while referenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can > these be used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object? > > Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using the term "congruent path= " > in these drafts (using ASCII-art): > > C---------D > > / \ > > A----B E-----F > > \ / > > G------------H > > Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the network as > A-B-C-D-E-F. Is A-B-G-H-E-F congruent to it? From the definition of > "congruent" as "two figures or objects are congruent if they have the sam= e > shape and size, or if one has the same shape and size as the mirror image > of the other", it looks as the path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to that SR > tunnel. But a packet of an active OAM intended to monitor a flow over the > SR tunnel is out-of-band relative to that flow and will not produce any > meaningful measurement. Of course, for the case of the extensions in draf= ts > *-twamp-srpm, direct loss measurement can be performed, as information > collected from node F and packets that collect the counters are not > required to be in-band with the monitored flow. So, this example, in my > opinion, illustrates two of my concerns: > > =C2=B7 using a congruent path for active performance measurement, > e.g., TWAMP or TWAMP Light, may produce information that does not reflect > the condition experienced by the monitored flow. It seems that the > terminology should reflect the fundamental requirement of ensuring that > active OAM test packets are in-band with the monitored flow. > > =C2=B7 there are no technical requirements to justify using in-ba= nd > test packets for direct packet loss measurement. In fact, using the in-ba= nd > method for collecting in-profile counters leads to a waste of bandwidth, > which may have a negative impact on services that require low-latency > and/or low packet loss. As demonstrated in this example, direct packet lo= ss > can be performed using an out-of-band mechanism, e.g., SNMP queries, > Netconf notifications based on YANG data model. > > > - Does the document solve a real problem? > > No, it appears that these drafts define a new performance measurement > protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP and TWAMP functionality and > adding the ability to collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn'= t > find sufficient technical arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, f= or > example, extending the existing OAM mechanisms like ICMP. > > Gyan> This may sound basic but is a very critical subject going down th= e > same lines of clarity in verbiage so their is no misunderstanding. > =E2=80=9CCongruent=E2=80=9D by definition means shape of an object and i= f you super > imposed two objects on top of each other they fit perfectly and the edges > coincide identically. The problem with congruent is that it is based on > the shape and that shape could be a mirror image or reflection which may > not be exact. So when referring to a SR-TE path taken this could lead to > confusion as to path taken if it=E2=80=99s the same path or congruent whi= ch is > vague as to =E2=80=9Cexactly=E2=80=9D which path is taken where here ther= e is criticality > as to the path being referenced in terms of in-band versus out-of-band. = I > agree that for direct in band packet loss measurement can be done via > existing OAM mechanisme via ICMP. > > Ok, we will find an appropriate term for =E2=80=9Csending packets o= n the > same path as data traffic=E2=80=9D. > > Extending ICMP for direct-mode loss measurement is outside the scop= e > of this draft. But good to see the agreement for the direct in band packe= t > loss measurement to be done (albeit by some other means). > > GIM2>> I feel that you misunderstand my position in regard to the use cas= e these four documents try to solve. I don't recall that I've stated that "direct in-band packet loss measurement" requires any additional standardization work. The Direct Measurement TLV has solved that for STAMP and draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tlv is now in the RFC Editor's queue. I cannot find any valid technical reason to re-open this and measure the direct packet loss in a slightly different way. I must point out that a claim that using fixed positions for the direct packet loss optimizes performance does not stand for cases (Section 4.2.1 and 4.2.2 of draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm) when the return path is specified in the Return Path TLV and, as I understand it, in some cases even the second TLV, Node Address TLV, is used. Thus, it is clear that the proposed new method of direct packet loss measurement does not offer any significant benefits comparing to the STAMP's Direct Measurement TLV and appears nothing but superfluous. > There is a requirement to measure performance delay as well as > synthetic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networks. OWAMP > and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthet= ic > packet loss measurement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a > good option here. > > GIM>> I agree with the requirements you've listed (though the SPRING WG > OAM requirements document > has > been abandoned and expired 3+ years ago). I believe that there's no > sufficient technical reason to use OWAMP/TWAMP for exclusive direct packe= t > loss measurement. > > > > Gyan> Agreed > > > > There is definitely a need to do direct-mode loss measurement in > IP/SR networks, as RFC 6374 mechanisms are for MPLS networks. Note that > there was an attempt to extend BFD for direct-mode loss measurement for > this purpose using RFC 6374 loss measurement message (see > draft-mirmin-bfd-extended-03). > GIM2>> I am surprised that you refer to draft-mirmin-bfd-extended in the past tense. The work and discussion of the proposal continues and the new version will be published soon. > > > > > > - Is the proposed solution technically viable? > > There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly the risk introduced > by the protocol on network security, to comprehensively evaluate the > proposed solution. > > About your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security > section in RFC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security > Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisione= d > in the domain by the operator for TWAMP. Other than this, I did not find > any other security related issue in your review below. > > GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference sufficiently explains why the > use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not decremental, does not crea= te > a security risk for the protocol. > > > > Gyan> Agreed 0 UDP MIMA security threats and that you need to thoroug= h > vetting of RFC 6936. > > > > Yes, will add in the next revision. Hope we can work together on > needed text. > > > > > > > > To summarize my review of these two drafts: > > - these propose a new protocol, not an update or enhancement of the > TWAMP-like protocol; > > The probe and response messages defined in [RFC 5357] are used for > delay measurement and synthetic packet loss. The direct-mode packet loss > messages are defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm > that > match these delay measurement messages. As stated, > draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm > defines > =E2=80=9Cextensions=E2=80=9D for TWAMP Light. > > GIM>> I cannot find where RFC 5357 defines "the probe and response > messages". Could you give a more specific reference or provide the text > that, in your opinion, defines such messages? But I'm more concerned with > the direction of "extending" non-protocol referred to as "TWAMP Light". A= s > a contributor to BBF's TR-390, I'm have learned how different are existin= g > implementations of TWAMP Light. And that is also noted in EANTC > Multi-Vendor Interoperability 2019 white paper > . > The status of TWAMP Light is explained in RFC 8545 and I cannot see that = it > can be used as a foundation of any standard. > > > > Gyan> I don=E2=80=99t see the probe a d response messages in TWAMP RF= C 5357 > > > > Agree to use term test-packet from RFC 5357. > > > - several parts of the proposed protocol, e.g., Zero UDP checksum in > IPv6, require detailed security analysis, which is currently absent; > > > > Gyan> Agreed > > > > Please see previous reply. > > > > > > This is specified in RFC 6936 Security Section. We will add referenc= e > to this RFC in our Security Section as well. This is only specific to the > UDP port locally provisioned in the domain by the operator for TWAMP. > > GIM>> I've noted above that a simple reference does not sufficiently > explains why the use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is not > decremental, does not create a security risk for the protocol. I believe > that the proposal to use zero UDP header checksum requires extensive > analysis, using the analysis provided in RFC 6936. > > > > Gyan> Completely Agree > > > > Please see previous reply. > > > > > - I was surprised to find out that draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm is on > the Informational track even though it is essential to the new protoco= l as > it defines its key elements > > This was to address your previous comment quoted as: > > =E2=80=9C- as I understand, the draft is applicable to TWAMP Light mode, > > mentioned in the informational Appendix I in RFC 5357, not the TWAMP > > protocol itself. Since TWAMP Light is not a standard but its idea is > > described in the informational text only, I think that the Information= al > > track is more appropriate for this specification.=E2=80=9D > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/bGTsJmJ5-eC3B-mfDCXAFiCAC3o/ > > Having said that, we are ok to change to PS. > > GIM>> As explained in RFC 8545 "TWAMP Light is an idea", not a protocol. > If anyone is interested in standardizing an "extension", I'd expect that > they first define the base specification to which the extension applies. = I > might have missed the definition of TWAMP Light protocol in the draft. Co= uld > you point to the definition, for example, of the Authenticated mode in > TWAMP Light in the draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm or RFC 5357? > > > > Gyan> Agreed > > > > The Appendix I of RFC 5357 does have information on the > Authentication mode. As specified there, this is based on user configured > parameters. > > > > > > - I believe that draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm should be anchored at > IPPM WG as it does introduce the new PM protocol. > > > > > > The TWAMP Light extension draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm > is > already in IPPM WG. The SPRING draft only defines SR PM procedures. > > > > Below, please find my detailed comments, questions on these drafts: > > - draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm > > I have several questions about the relationships between this draft and > Appendix I in RFC 5357 where the idea of a mode known as TWAMP Light has > been mentioned. The nature of the TWAMP Light and what is required to mak= e > it a standard is well-explained in Section 4 of RFC 8545 > (apologies for the long > quote): > > "TWAMP Light" is an idea described in Appendix I ("TWAMP Light > (Informative)") of [RFC5357]; TWAMP Light includes an unspecified > control protocol combined with the TWAMP-Test protocol. In > [RFC5357], the TWAMP Light idea was relegated to Appendix I because > TWAMP Light failed to meet the requirements for IETF protocols (there > are no specifications for negotiating this form of operation and no > specifications for mandatory-to-implement security features), as > described in Appendix A of this memo. See also [LarsAD] and > [TimDISCUSS]. > > Since the idea of TWAMP Light clearly includes the TWAMP-Test > component of TWAMP, it is considered reasonable for future systems to > use the TWAMP-Test well-known UDP port (whose reallocated assignment > is specified in this document). Clearly, the TWAMP Light idea > envisions many components and communication capabilities beyond > TWAMP-Test (implementing the security requirements, for example); > otherwise, Appendix I of [RFC5357] would be one sentence long > (equating TWAMP Light with TWAMP-Test only). > > > > Since we don't have an IETF document that addressed these open questions, > I don't think we can have a draft that proposes extensions to a > non-standard mechanism (Appendix is for Informational material, as I > understand it) on the Standard track. > > Gyan> Agreed > > The procedure for using the RFC 5357 defined messages in TWAMP Ligh= t > configuration mode is defined in the corresponding spring drafts. It also > describes the provisioning model. > > GIM2>> If a return path can be provisioned for TWAMP Light, why the same method of controlling a test session cannot be used for STAMP? > > > This was to address your previous comment quoted as > > =E2=80=9C- as I understand, the draft is applicable to TWAMP Light mode, > > mentioned in the informational Appendix I in RFC 5357, not the TWAMP > > protocol itself. Since TWAMP Light is not a standard but its idea is > > described in the informational text only, I think that the Information= al > > track is more appropriate for this specification.=E2=80=9D > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/bGTsJmJ5-eC3B-mfDCXAFiCAC3o/ > > Having said that, we are ok to change to PS as you mentioned above. > > BTW, despite only difference of fixed vs. variable length payload in > STAMP vs. TWAMP Light, the STAMP is a proposed standard as RFC 8762 (and = it > uses the same approach of provisioning as defined in this draft). Hence, > security considerations for STAMP and TWAMP Light are not different. Note > that both STAMP and TWAMP Light have authenticated messages defined for > Security purpose. > > GIM>> RFC 5357 mentioned TWAMP Light as an unauthenticated, and thus the > light, simpler, version of TWAMP-Test component of TWAMP protocol. I cann= ot > find in draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm definition of the Authenticated mo= de > of TWAMP Light. Also, I'll prefer not to refer to RFC 8762 STAMP in the > discussion of "extension" to TWAMP Light. > > > > The Authentication information is user-configured as shown in > Section 3.1 of the draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm, and is also described = in > Appendix I of RFC 5357. > > > > Now a number of more specific questions. > > draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm: > > - In the Introduction it is stated that: > > The TWAMP Light [Appendix I in RFC5357] [BBF.TR-390] provides > simplified mechanisms for active performance measurement in Customer > IP networks by provisioning UDP paths and eliminates the need for > control-channel signaling. > > I can not find where, either Appendix I or TR-390, "eliminated the need > for control-channel signaling". Also, could you point where the reference= d > documents describe "provisioning UDP paths"? > > > > The Appendix I of RFC 5357 has following text. We can reword and mat= ch the exact text if you prefer. > > > > =E2=80=9CThis example eliminates the need for the TWAMP-Control protocol,= and > > assumes that the Session-Reflector is configured=E2=80=9D > > GIM>> I think that the text you're proposing is even more confusing. It i= s > not clear which example the sentence is referring to. Also, what is the > basis for such an assumption? > > > > This is the exact text from RFC 5357 Appendix I. Please go through > the entire Section in that RFC 5357 to avoid =E2=80=9Cout of context=E2= =80=9D discussion. > > > > > - It appears that the last paragraph in the Introduction describes the > relationship with Appendix I of RFC 5357: > > The procedure uses the mechanisms defined in [RFC5357] > (TWAMP Light) and its extensions for Performance Measurement. > > I think that the reference must be to Appendix I, not RFC 5357. Also, > could you please specify which extensions of TWAMP Light have been used i= n > this draft? > > We can add the Appendix I as reference in the next revision. > Extensions are defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm, we can add this > reference. > > GIM>> The problem, in my view, is that Appendix I of RFC 5357 must be a > normative reference while it is, by its nature, an Informational document= . > > > > If approved, it is fine to have informational draft/RFC in a > normative reference. But RFC 5357 is PS. > > > - In Section 2.3 describing the reference model is noted: > > The probe response message is typically sent to the sender node R1. > > In which scenarios the reflector acts differently? How such behavior is > related to the behavior of a TWAMP Session-Reflector, as defined in RFC > 5357? > > Do you prefer we remove =E2=80=9Ctypically=E2=80=9D from the sentenc= e? > > GIM>> If that fits into the operational model of the new protocol you're > defining. > > > - Also in Section 2.3 a Link is mentioned as an element directly > connecting nodes in the presented reference model. Could you clarify w= hat > is a Link? Is it always a physical connection between two systems or a > virtual? > > Both, please see Section 4.1.3. =E2=80=9CLink=E2=80=9D is well known= term used in > many existing RFCs (please see RFC 5613, 5340, 8330). > > GIM>> Thank you for the references. I couldn't find a definition of an > object "Link" (capitalized) but only "link" (lower case). Hence, since th= e > draft consistently uses the capitalized form, I consider it to be somethi= ng > else, something different from a link. > > > > Ok, we can change Link to link in the next revision to avoid > confusion. > > > - In Section 3 behavior of the reflector described as > > ... no PM state for delay or loss measurement need to be created on th= e > reflector node R5. > > That is in contradiction to the behavior of a TWAMP Session-Reflector as > defined in RFC 5357. Could you provide a reference to an IETF standard > where this behavior is defined? Also, how, without creating a state at th= e > Session-Reflector, to achieve one-way delay and synthetic loss measuremen= t > on a bidirectional SR tunnel? > > Gyan> Valid point > > Bidirectional SR tunnel may have an SR state but the statement abov= e > is that no PM (i.e. TWAMP Light) protocol session state is created for it= . > We can clarify in the next revision. > > GIM2>> So-called stateless Session-Reflector in TWAMP Light is only one option. I am well-familiar with the implementation that uses the stateful mode. > > > Quoting the text from Appendix I in RFC 5357. We can quote the text > as is. > > =E2=80=9CIn the case of TWAMP Light, the Session-Reflector does not neces= sarily have knowledge of the session state. =E2=80=9C > > GIM>> By the informational nature of Appendix I, the text is not > normative. I am familiar with the implementation of TWAMP Light which doe= s > maintain the session state and thus supports one-way packet loss > measurement. If you require that the remote node does not maintain the > state, the draft must define that as part of the specifying the behavior = of > the protocol. > > > > Ok, we can discuss what information is to be maintained in that > state on the reflector for synthetic packet loss. We can add appropriate > text if you can help please. > > GIM2>> I don't see any reason to do that as that already defined in RFC 8762 and draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-yang > > > > - Further, in Section 3 the selection of UDP port explained as the > following: > > As specified in [RFC8545], the reflector > supports the destination UDP port 862 for delay measurement probe > messages by default. This UDP port however, is not used for loss > measurement probe messages. > > To the best of my understanding, as one of the contributors and Editors o= f > RFC 8545, it re-allocated UDP port 862 for use by a TWAMP Session-Reflect= or > without excluding any type of measurement. Besides, in TWAMP delay and > packet loss are measured in the same test session, using the same flow of > TWAMP-Test packets. > > Gyan> Agreed > > Yes, we can use port 862 for both delay and synthetic packet loss = =E2=80=93 > they are using the same test packet. There is no change proposed in the > draft. > > GIM2>> Packet delay and synthetic packet loss measurements are already supported in RFC 8762. Are you proposing a new protocol to duplicate the STAMP functionalities? > The packet loss in existing RFC 5357 refers to synthetic loss as > there is no support for direct-mode loss in RFC 5357. We can change the > text to clarify as =E2=80=9CThis UDP port however, is not used for direct= -mode loss > measurement probe messages.=E2=80=9D > > GIM>> I've found that there's some misconception in the draft. RFC 8545 > re-assigned UDP port 862 not for "delay measurement probe messages" but f= or > TWAMP-Test protocol. TWAMP-Test protocol, in turn, supports packet delay, > packet loss, reordering (RFC 4737 defines packet reordering metric), and > packet duplication measurement. > > > - Then the draft states that > > The sender uses the UDP port number following the guidelines specified in > Section 6 in [RFC6335]. > > Could you point to the guidelines that a user can use when selecting a UD= P > port number of a test session? > > Gyan> Good point > > Please see section 6 in [RFC6335]. We can cite the range which will > be the same as used in [RFC8762]. This was also discussed earlier. > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/ONYYhG9Y8sbiNO15bxWIRM9ymEE/ > > GIM>> I've looked through Section 6 but I don't find anything specificall= y > applicable to this draft we're discussing. If the protocol to use UDP por= t > numbers from the Dynamic ports range, a.k.a., Private or Ephemeral, then = it > seems that stating that explicitly would be the best way. > > > > This would be, User Ports and Dynamic Ports ranges, which are defin= ed in [RFC6335 ]. Yes, we can add this= text. > > > > - At the closing of the paragraph, we read that > > The number of UDP ports with PM functionality needs to be minimized due > to limited hardware resources. > > Does a UDP port number pose PM functionality? How it is assigned to the > port number? > > UDP ports are user configured for delay and direct-mode loss PM as > described in Section 3.1. > > GIM>> Can UDP port 862 be used? Also, requiring that the direct-loss > measurement uses port number different from the one used by a TWAMP-Test > packet, in my opinion, is another indication that this is the definition = of > a different from TWAMP Light PM OAM protocol. > > > > If we add a field in the packet then UDP port 862 may be used along > with the new field. But it will require extra processing in hardware. It = is > better to use a different UDP port for processing efficiency in hardware. > > > > > - Following the above-quoted text, in Section 3 is noted: > > For Performance Measurement, probe query and response messages are > sent as following: > > Could you clarify if the listed further procedures deviate from > OWAMP/TWAMP or follow procedures defined in RFC 4656 and RFC 5357 for > Session-Sender and Session-Reflector respectively? > > Probe messages follow the same procedure as defined in RFC 4656 and > RFC 5357. > > GIM>> All messages, i.e., TWAMP-Test packets as well as the defined > in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm? > > > > Yes, unless otherwise specified in the draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm= . > > > > > - for both delay and loss measurements draft requires test packet be > transmitted on a congruent path: > > the probe messages are sent on the > congruent path of the data traffic by the sender node > > It is not clear what "the congruent path" means. The definition > of congruency in geometry tells us that an object B is congruent to objec= t > A if it has the same shape and size, but is allowed to flip, slide or tur= n. > How a path can be congruent to another path? > > > > Gyan> Agreed. The use of congruent in the context of pathing is > confusing as the path being addressed may not be reflected accurately by > the term congruent. > > > > As replied above. > > > > There are many existing RFCs that use term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC > 5921, 6669) without defining them. I suspect it is because it is well-kno= wn > term. Having said that, we can add a reference for it if it helps reader. > > GIM>> I cannot assume what was the context of these RFCs. I've sketched a > network diagram above to illustrate that a "congruent path" may well lead > to out-of-band path. Is that the intention of the authors of the draft to > use this protocol out-of-band? > > > > As replied above. > > > - The last paragraph in Section 3 refers to work on iOAM: > > The In-Situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (IOAM) > mechanisms for SR-MPLS defined in [I-D.gandhi-mpls-ioam-sr] and for > SRv6 defined in [I-D.ali-spring-ioam-srv6] are used to carry PM > information such as timestamp in-band as part of the data packets, > and are outside the scope of this document. > > Is iOAM in the scope of this specification? What are the relationships > between iOAM and draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm? > > As mentioned in the draft, IOAM is outside the scope. > > GIM>> Yes, but it appears that references to the two IOAM-related drafts > have some purpose. What is it? How are these drafts related > to draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm? > > > > We can remove them if it is confusing. It is informational text (wa= s > added to address a review comment). > > > > > - Section 3.1 presents an example of the provisioning model but puts > the definition of the provisioning model outside the scope. Is there a= n > accompanying specification that defines the provisioning model that ca= n be > used in multi-vendor deployment? Could that be YANG data model? What i= s the > relationship with draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yang > ? Would the > TWAMP YANG data model be augmented? > > Yes, this can be Yang model. We can review draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-yan= g > and add any > missing items in a separate draft. We can also add a reference in this > draft. > > GIM>> I think that theremust be some discussion on how the new protocol i= s > configured. If TWAMP YANG data model can be augmented, I'd expect that > being defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm. But I couldn't find anythi= ng > about the configuration of the protocol. > > > > The Yang model extensions are not in the scope of this draft. > > > > > - Section 4.1 states that a new message is introduced to perform the > Loss Measurement in this protocol Why the capability of TWAMP to measu= re > the loss in one-way and two-way is not sufficient? > > Existing TWAMP messages do not support =E2=80=9Cdirect-mode=E2=80=9D= loss > measurement. We can add =E2=80=9Cdirect-mode=E2=80=9D in the text to clar= ify. > > GIM>> True, direct loss measurement, in fact, is not active measurement > and thus is outside the scope of Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol > (TWAMP). The direct-loss measurement is, by the definition of RFC 7799, > passive measurement method and fetching counters can be done using numero= us > methods, e.g., SNMP, Netconf. > > > > RFC 7799 does not say using Test-packets to collect counters for > direct-mod loss measurement is passive. > > GIM2>> Per RFC 7799, injecting in-band test packets is the characteristic of an active measurement method. Using out-of-band transport, e.g., SNMP queries, would be an example of a passive measurement method. > > > > - Section 4.1.1 requires that > > The Destination UDP port cannot be used as Source port, since > the message does not have any indication to distinguish between the > query and response message. > > Does that imply that the Destination UDP port used for the Delay > measurement is unique throughout the particular domain? > > > > Gyan> Good question > > Yes, it is unique in the domain. > > This is user-defined and is up to the user what UDP port to provisio= n > in a domain. > > GIM>> So, can user configure a port number from the User Ports range? Or, > can the same port number be used on the same system for a number of test > sessions? I find the use of UDP port numbers being underspecified. > > > - Section 4.1.2 of RFC 5357 does not define "the delay measurement > message" but refers to the definition of the Session-Sender's test pac= ket > in RFC 4656 OWAMP. Note, that OWAMP and TWAMP are using a single test > packet format to perform both delay and packet loss measurement. > > Ok, we can update the text in the next revision to indicate exact > name from the RFC 4656. We can also add text to include synthetic packet > loss. > > GIM>> I think that making it explicit would help. Also, that will > highlight what is being introduced by *twamp-srpm drafts is, in fact, a n= ew > protocol to perform synthetic packet loss measurement. > > > > No, it does not change anything for synthetic packet loss. > > > - Can you explain how "the DM probe query message contains the payload > format defined in Section 4.2.1 of [RFC5357]" when the referenced sect= ion > of RFC 5357 defines the format of a Session-Reflector's test packet? > > We can update the text in the next revision to indicate query format > name from RFC 5357. > > GIM>> I cannot find any reference to a query format in RFCs 4656/5357. > Could you please quote from any of these documents? > > > > It is test-packet, we will use RFC 5357 term. > > > - Can clarify the applicability of RFC 6038 and the symmetrical packet > size? Is it required? Can it be non-symmetrical? > > Yes. Please see section 4.1.1 and quoted below: > > =E2=80=9CFor symmetrical size query and response messages as defined in [= RFC6038],=E2=80=9D > > GIM>> RFC 6038 defines an extension to RFC 5357 for OPTIONAL use of the > symmetrical test packets. Since *-twamp-srpm proposals do not use > TWAMP-Control protocol and Appendix I in RFC 5357 tells us nothing about > that either (in part because RFC 6038 came later), I don't see that there= 's > any certainty in what is the sze of a test packet used in the direct-loss > measurement. > > > > The test-packets as defined in these existing RFCs are used for > delay and synthetic packet loss. The direct-mode test-packets are defined > in this draft. > > GIM2>> This draft defines only a new packet format for the direct packet loss measurement. For STAMP such a mechanism is clearly superfluous given the Direct Measurement TLV is already defined. > > - Can you clarify the use of the timestamp format, NTP or PTPv2? It is > not clear which is the default, mandatory or optional. > > This is same as TWAMP. There is no change. > > GIM>> Per RFC 5357, TWAMP uses only NTP format. Is that the case for > *-twamp-srpm? > > > > No change in existing in what is there in RFC 5357 and RFC 8186. > > > - Also, is "hardware support in Segment Routing networks" of the PTPv2 > format required, guaranteed, or something else? > > Hardware timestamps are recommended for SR use-cases. We can change > the sentence. > > GIM>> Perhaps you can propose some text, that would be helpful. > > > > Ack. > > > - Section 4.1.1.1 stated that > > A separate user-configured > destination UDP port is used for the delay measurement in > authentication mode due to the different probe message format. > > Can that be interpreted that there could be concurrent authenticated and > unauthenticated test sessions using this protocol? Would different > authentication methods require using unique destination UDP port numbers? > > Yes, and Yes, and these are based on provisioning. > > GIM>> But that requirement is far outside the TWAMP, as defined in RFC > 5357. > > > > Some Session-Sender can use authenticated and some not. It is part > of RFC 5357. > > > - Section 4.1.2 by introducing the dedicated Loss measurement packet > format, effectively modifies the behavior defined in RFC 5357 for > Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. But the document does not state = that. > Can you clarify whether this specification changes the behavior of a > Session-Sender and Session-Reflector as defined in RFC 4656 and RFC 53= 57 > respectively for the support of packet loss measurement? > > The direct-mode loss defines new procedure for sender/reflector to > collect traffic counters, as opposed to timestamp. The rest is the same a= s > RFC 4656 and 5357. > > GIM>> I cannot agree with your statement " The rest is the same as RFC > 4656 and 5357" because the sender's direct-loss format does not have Erro= r > Estimate field, Thus, a reflected packet does not have Sender's Error > Estimate, nor Error Estimate of the reflector. And that, in my opinion, i= s > another clear indication that *twamp-srpm drafts define a new protocol, > separate from OWAMP/TWAMP. > > > > That field is specific to timestamps and would not apply to counter= s > for direct-mode loss measurement. > > > > > - And a similar question about the use of the separate UDP port number > for the authenticated of the packet loss measurement. > - A couple of question to the following text in Section 4.1.3: > > The local and remote IP > addresses of the link are used as Source and Destination Addresses. > They can also be IPv6 link local address as probe messages are pre- > routed. > > - What are the addresses of a link? > > I am assuming this well-known (e.g. RFC 2328). > > GIM>> I am not familiar with the term "pre-routed". What does it mean? > > > > Ensure that packets are routed over the link. > > > - In which scenarios an IPv6 LLA can be used? > > I am assuming this is well-known (e.g. RFC 5613). > > GIM>> So, LLA may be used as the source and destination addresses when > testing an SR tunnel? > > > > As mentioned this is for links. > > > > > - Also, could the use of a routable destination IP address be used as > a DDOS attack vector? Consider the scenario when an attacker genera= tes > SR-encapsulated packets with the destination IP address other than = any of > the SR-terminating nodes. Such a packet will be routed, correct? Th= at does > appear as a security threat, would you agree? > > Absolutely do not agree. It is no different than IP routed TWAMP > packet as defined in [RFC5357]. > > GIM>> You don't agree that the processing described cannot happen because > of laws of physics or it wouldn't happen because no one will think of tha= t? > If the latter, I think that that is security threat. > > > > There is no new threat like you have mentioned. > > GIM2>> Hmmm, but how the integrity of TLVs proposed in draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm can be protected? These are not protected by HMAC as presented in figures 3 and 5. > > - Section 4.1.4.2 references Figure 5 that, as I understand it, > displays the format of a probe query message. In figure two references= to > RFC 5357 are provided - a section that references RFC 4656 OWAMP defin= ition > of the Session-Sender test packet, and a section that defines the > Session-Reflector's reflected packet. Which of the two is used for the > delay measurement in the proposed protocol? > > The probe query packet in the Session-Sender text packet. We can > update the name. > > - Section 4.2.1 states that > > In one-way measurement mode, the probe response message as defined in > Figure 6 is sent back out-of-band to the sender node ... > > Could you clarify how the responder controls that the response packet is > sent not in-band but out-of-band? > > Please refer to section 3.1 in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm. This i= s > existing behaviour for out-of-band. > > GIM>> draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm does not specify that it defines > another new protocol OWAMP Light. And it is not clear what you reference = as > "this is existing behavior". Is it to reference behavior of TWAMP test > packet? But the behavior of the TWAMP-Test protocol by itself is neither > in-band, nor out-of-band. It is the encapsulation of the TWAMP test packe= t > that makes it either in-band or out-of-band. > > > > Right. > > > - How's the method described in Section 4.2.3 is different from the > method described in RFC 8403 ? > What is distinctly unique about the loopback mode proposed in the sect= ion? > > There is no mention of Loopback mode or TWAMP / RFC 5357 in RFC 8403= . > > GIM>> So, you believe that proposing to use the method described in RFC > 8403 for the TWAMP packet is innovation? And what are the benefits of usi= ng > the TWAMP test packet format in the Loopback mode? > > > > Please see the draft. > > > - What is the rationale for setting TTL/Hop Limit fields always to 255 > for IPv4, MPLS, and IPv6 (per Section 4.3.1)? > > This is as defined in Section 4.2 of RFC 5357 (Bullet 4). > > GIM>> I believe you've misunderstood the text in RFC 5357. This bullet > specifies the behavior of a Session-Reflector. It is to try to read TTL > value of the received TWAMP test packet and copy the value in Sender TTL > field of the reflected packet. If the Session-Reflector cannot access the > TTL field, it MUST write 255 in the Sender TTL field. So, I think that my > questions still remains. > > > > Please see Section 4.2.1 of RFC 5357. > > > - Section 4.3.3 states that a zero-value UDP checksum may be used in > some scenarios. RFC 8085 allows that but in very specific cases that a= re > documented in detail in Section 3.4.1. Do you believe that the case of= this > protocol checks all the requirements for allowing the use of Zero UDP > checksum as specified in RFC 8085? Also, I believe that allowing the u= se of > Zero UDP checksum in some scenarios, this protocol introduces a securi= ty > threat that must be thoroughly analyzed in the Security Considerations > section. > > This is described in RFC 6936. It will be very specific to the UDP > port provisioned for TWAMP. We will add reference to RFC 6936 in Security > Section. > > GIM>> I don't think that the reference is sufficient for the > Securit Consideration. I'd expect some extended discussion on why using > zero UDP header checksum is not a security threat for *twamp-srpm protoc= ol. > > > > Please see reply above. > > > - Section 8 refers to "liveness monitoring of Links and SR Paths". > This appears as the replication of functionality provided by BFD/S-BFD > protocols. Is such comparison accurate? If it is, shouldn't the propos= al be > also reviewed by the BFD WG? > > TWAMP probe messages are used today for synthetic packet loss which > can also be used to detect connection loss (performance metric). The > section simply highlights this obvious metric. > > GIM>> Can you point to a document that has defined "TWAMP probe messages > are used today for synthetic packet loss"? Also, which document defines > loss of connectivity as a performance metric? Does *twamp-srpm proposes t= o > use the new protocol to detect the loss of path continuity? > > > > For example Y.1731 has such notion of connection loss. TWAMP is use= d > widely for synthetic packet loss and is well-known. There is no change in > protocol. This is reported metric. > > GIM2>> What are packet transmission frequencies authors envisioned for that mode? A single-digit millisecond? > > - I found the Security Section of the proposed protocol inadequately > terse and missing very important threats that this protocol introduces= in > the network. > > Other than referring RFC 6936 for zero checksum what else is missing= ? > Otherwise it is no different than RFC 8762 (STAMP). > > GIM>> I cannot see how RFC 8762 is relevant to *twamp-srpm drafts. The us= e > of source IP addresses, as mentioned above, appears to be another securit= y > risk introduced by *-twamp-srpm drafts. > > > > There is no mention of Source IP address above. > > > - draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm > > As I understand it, the motivation for the Loss Measurement mode defined > in this specification is to collect "in-profile" counters. Is that correc= t? > Do you see as essential for this mode that the query messages are in-band > with the flow being profiled? In your opinion, how using an out-of-band > method of collecting these counters, e.g., by using ICMP multi-part messa= ge > extension per RFC 4884, could affect the accuracy comparing with the meth= od > in this protocol? How the impact changes if extended ICMP messages are > in-band with the profiled flow? > > Yes, they need to be in-band with the flow, to collect the counter > from the right forwarding paths for the flow. Discussion of using ICMP fo= r > direct-mode loss measurement is outside the scope of this draft. > > GIM2>> I think that the assumption "they need to be in-band with the flow= , to collect the counter from the right forwarding paths for the flow" is technically inaccurate. Otherwise, how SNMP queries could work for decades of networking history? > As mentioned earlier, I am not sure extending ICMP to do PM is a goo= d > option here. Both TWAMP and OWAMP are widely deployed today for delay and > synthetic loss measurement. > > GIM>> What is the reason mentioning OWAMP? Are drafts *-twamp-srpm extend > RFC 4656 OWAMP as well? Also, what you see as the connection between usin= g > active measurement methods to measure packet delay and packet loss, on on= e > hand, and collecting packet counters? > > > > The Session-Sender test-packet is defined in OWAMP RFC and not TWAM= P > RFC. Other than timestamp and its format vs. counter and its format, the > messages and processing are the same. > > > > Thanks, > > Rakesh > > > > > > > - Section 3.1 introduces the new field, Sender Control Code. The > format of the packet, as I understand it, is presented in Figure 1. Wh= en > comparing with the format of Session-Sender's test packet defined in R= FC > 4656 OWAMP in Section 4.1.2 I've noticed that there are no MBZ fields.= Are > these introduced by your proposal? > > It shows the partial message that has new field. We can update it to > show the full message to avoid such confusion. > > - Also, it appears that the Sequence Number field in TWAMP > Session-Sender's test packet is absent in Figure 1. Is that intentiona= l? > > It shows the partial message that has new field. We can update it to > show the full message to avoid such confusion. > > Thanks, > > Rakesh > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > Thanks > > > > Gyan > > > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 5:51 AM James Guichard < > james.n.guichard@futurewei.com> wrote: > > Dear WG: > > > > This message starts a 3 week WG adoption call for document > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 ending > November 12th 2020. Please note that this document has several changes > from v-10 that were requested by the SPRING and IPPM chairs. For this > reason, the chairs have extended the adoption call for an additional week > to allow the WG enough time to review these changes before deciding on WG > adoption. > > > > Some background: > > > > Several review comments were received previously for document > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10. The SPRING > and IPPM chairs considered those comments, and upon review of this versio= n > of the document, determined the following: > > > > - The SPRING document should describe only the procedures relevant to > SPRING with pointers to non-SPRING document/s that define any extensio= ns. > Several extensions including* Control Code Field Extension for TWAMP > Light Messages*, *Loss Measurement Query Message Extensions*, and *Los= s > Measurement Response Message Extensions *were included in > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10 and > should be removed from the SPRING document. > - The TWAMP extensions included in > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10 should > be described in a new document published in the IPPM WG. > > > > These conclusions were discussed with the authors of > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10 the result > of which is the publication of the following two documents: > > > > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11. The > subject of this WG adoption call. > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm-00. This > document will be progressed (if determined by the WG) within the IPPM = WG. > > > > After review of the SPRING document please indicate support (or not) for > WG adoption to the mailing list. Please also provide comments/reasons for > that support (or lack thereof) as silence will not be considered as conse= nt. > > > > Finally, the chairs would like to thank the authors for their efforts in > this matter. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Jim, Bruno, & Joel > > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > -- > > > > *Gyan Mishra* > > *Network Solutions Architect * > > > > *M 301 502-1347 13101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD > > > --000000000000bbe3f005b55585a4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Rakesh,
    thank you for the continue= d discussion. I appreciate your responses. I am still not convinced of the = value these documents add. Please find my follow-up notes in-line=C2=A0belo= w under the GIM2>> tag.

    Regards,
    G= reg


    On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 8:19 PM Rakesh Gandhi (rgan= dhi) <rgandhi@cis= co.com> wrote:

    Thank you Gyan = and Greg for your review comments and discussions. Please see inline replie= s with <RG2>=E2=80=A6

    =C2=A0<= /u>

    =C2=A0

    From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com= >
    Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2020 at 12:34 PM
    To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
    Cc: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>, James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com&g= t;, Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi) <rgandhi@cisco.com>, ippm-chairs@ietf.org <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@ietf.org= <spring-cha= irs@ietf.org>, = spring@ietf.org <spring@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [spring] [ippm] WG Adoption Call for h= ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11<= /u>

    =C2=A0

    Hi Rakesh=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    I have been following this thread and to help progre= ss the discussion I would like to provide some comments in-line Gyan>=C2= =A0

    =C2=A0

    Thanks=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    Gyan

    =C2=A0

    On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 7:08 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.co= m> wrote:

    Hi Rakesh,

    thank you for the response to my comments.=C2=A0Plea= se find my follow-up notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.=

    =C2=A0

    Regards,

    Greg

    =C2=A0

    On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 7:33 AM Rakesh Gandhi (rgand= hi) <rgandhi@cisc= o.com> wrote:

    Thank you Greg for taking time for tho= roughly reviewing the documents and providing the comments.

    Please see replies inline with <RG&= gt;=E2=80=A6

    =C2=A0

    From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org>= ;
    Date: Friday, November 6, 2020 at 11:18 AM
    To: James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>
    Cc: spring@ietf= .org <spring@ie= tf.org>, ippm-chairs@ietf.= org <ippm-= chairs@ietf.org>, spring-chairs@i= etf.org <spring-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] WG Adoption Call for https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11    =

    Dear Chairs of the SPRING and IPPM WGs, Authors, et = al.,

    I've found myself in the situation when two rela= ted drafts are in the WG APs in the SPRING and IPPM WG (with the possibilit= y that expertise from the third WG, BFD WG, might be desirable to review the "liveness monitoring"). Because these drafts are c= losely related, I've decided to combine my questions and comments in a = single thread. I hope that would be acceptable and considered by the SPRING= WG as well as IPPM WG.

    Usually, the bar for the adoption of a document can = be evaluated=C2=A0by answers to these three questions:

    • Is the document(s) reasonably well-written

    I've got surprised that the drafts don't use= the terminology from RFC 4656 and 5357 and introduce their own terminology= for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector. Also, many terms, e.g., Links, "congruent paths", are used in the documents withou= t proper definitions. Other than that both drafts are readable and reasonab= ly well-written.

    <RG> We are ok to change Sender to Session-Sender and Re= flector to Session-Reflector if it helps.

    =C2=A0

    GIM>> I believe that the consistency in termin= ology between the core RFC and what is intended as its extension is not onl= y helpful to a reader but, to the best of my understanding, is required for= IETF specifications. But I don't think that switching the terminology will fix the fundamental issue with the pro= posal. The operation that is required from the remote entity, whether it is= referred to as responder or Session-Reflector, is not defined in Appendix = I of RFC 5357, nor in RFCs 4656 or 5357 itself. In my opinion, the behavior required, as described in the = draft, cannot be characterized as an extension of OWAMP, TWAMP, or TWAMP Li= ght but presents a completely new protocol that, if there's a need in t= he new PM OAM protocol, must be properly defined.

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gyan> I am in complete agreement wit= h Greg about terminology and consistency.=C2=A0 The problem with inconsiste= ncy is that that you are not following well known normative references requ= ired to understand the specification leading to confusion and misunderstanding of the specification.=C2=A0 The goal should be clear = and concise in terminology and verbiage.

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> Agr= ee. Will address the terms from RFC 5357 in the next revision.

    <RG> There are many existing RFCs that use term =E2=80= =9CLink=E2=80=9D (e.g. RFC 5613, 5340, 8330, etc.) and term =E2=80=9CCongru= ent Path=E2=80=9D (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669) without defining them. I suspect it is because these are well-known terms. Having said that, we c= an add a reference for them if it helps.

    GIM>> Thank you for listing these RFCs. I thin= k I need to clarify my questions. While a reference to any of RFCs you'= ve mentioned, I don't think that will address my concern. In reviewed d= ocuments, "Link" is capitalized while referenced RFCs used the lower case form for the term "link". Can these be = used interchangeably? Do they refer to the same network object?

    Now I'll try to illustrate my concern with using= the term "congruent path" in these drafts (using ASCII-art):<= /u>

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0C---------D

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0\

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A----B=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0E-----F

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0\=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0G------------H

    Consider an SR tunnel from A to F that traverses the= network as A-B-C-D-E-F. Is A-B-G-H-E-F congruent to it? From the definitio= n of "congruent" as "two figures or objects are congruent if= they have the same shape and size, or if one has the same shape and size as the mirror image of the other", it looks a= s the path A-B-G-H-E-F is congruent to that SR tunnel. But a packet of an a= ctive OAM intended to monitor a flow over the SR tunnel is out-of-band rela= tive to that flow and will not produce any meaningful measurement. Of course, for the case of the extensions in d= rafts *-twamp-srpm, direct loss measurement can be performed, as informatio= n collected from node F and packets that collect the counters are not requi= red to be in-band with the monitored flow. So, this example, in my opinion, illustrates two of my concerns:<= /u>

    =C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 using a congruent path for active performance m= easurement, e.g., TWAMP or TWAMP Light, may produce information that does n= ot reflect the condition experienced by the monitored flow. It seems that t= he terminology should reflect the fundamental requirement of ensuring that active OAM test packets are i= n-band with the monitored flow.

    =C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 there are no technical requirements to justify = using in-band test packets for direct packet loss measurement. In fact, usi= ng the in-band method for collecting in-profile counters leads to a waste o= f bandwidth, which may have a negative impact on services that require low-latency and/or low packet los= s. As demonstrated in this example, direct packet loss can be performed usi= ng an out-of-band mechanism, e.g., SNMP queries, Netconf notifications base= d on YANG data model.

    • Does the document solve a real problem?

    No, it appears that these drafts define a new perfor= mance measurement protocol for the purpose of combining OWAMP and TWAMP fun= ctionality and adding the ability to collect counters of "in-profile" packets. I couldn't find sufficient technica= l arguments for using a PM protocol instead of, for example, extending the = existing OAM mechanisms like ICMP.

    =C2=A0Gyan> =C2=A0This may sound basic but is a v= ery critical subject going down the same lines of clarity in verbiage so th= eir is no misunderstanding. =C2=A0=E2=80=9CCongruent=E2=80=9D by definition= means shape of an object and if you super imposed two objects on top of each other the= y fit perfectly and the edges coincide identically.=C2=A0 The problem with = congruent is that it is based on the shape and that shape could be a mirror= image or reflection which may not be exact.=C2=A0 So when referring to a SR-TE path taken this could lead to co= nfusion as to path taken if it=E2=80=99s the same path or congruent which i= s vague as to =E2=80=9Cexactly=E2=80=9D which path is taken where here ther= e is criticality as to the path being referenced in terms of in-band versus out-of-band.=C2=A0 I agr= ee that for direct in band packet loss measurement can be done via existing= OAM mechanisme via ICMP.

    <RG2> Ok,= we will find an appropriate term for =E2=80=9Csending packets on the same path as data traffic=E2=80=9D.

    <RG2> Ext= ending ICMP for direct-mode loss measurement is outside the scope of this draft. But good to see the agreement for the direct in band packet= loss measurement to be done (albeit by some other means).

    =
    <= /div>
    GIM2>> I feel that you misunderstand my = position in regard to the use case these four documents try to solve. I don= 't recall that I've stated that "direct in-band packet loss me= asurement" requires any additional standardization work. The Direct Me= asurement TLV has solved that for STAMP and draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-option-tl= v is now in the RFC Editor's queue. I cannot find any valid technical r= eason to re-open this and measure the direct packet loss in a slightly diff= erent way. I must point out that a claim that using fixed positions for the= direct packet loss optimizes performance does not stand for cases (Section= 4.2.1 and 4.2.2 of draft-gandhi-spring-stamp-srpm) when the return path is= specified in the Return Path TLV and, as I understand it, in some cases ev= en the second TLV, Node Address TLV, is used. Thus, it is clear that the pr= oposed new method of direct packet loss measurement does not offer any sign= ificant benefits comparing to the STAMP's Direct Measurement TLV and ap= pears nothing but superfluous.
    <= div>

    =

    <RG> There is a requirement to measure performance delay= as well as synthetic and direct-mode packet loss in segment-routing networ= ks. OWAMP and TWAMP protocols are widely deployed for performance delay and synthetic packet loss measur= ement today. I am not sure extending ICMP for LM is a good option here.

    GIM>> I agree with the=C2=A0requirements you&#= 39;ve listed (though the=C2=A0SPRING WG OAM requirem= ents document=C2=A0has been abandoned and expired 3+ years ago). I believe that there's no sufficient technical reason=C2=A0to us= e OWAMP/TWAMP for exclusive direct packet loss measurement.=C2=A0=C2=A0<= /u>

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gyan> Agreed

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> There is definitely a n= eed to do direct-mode loss measurement in IP/SR networks, as RFC 6374 mecha= nisms are for MPLS networks. Note that there was an attempt to extend BFD for direct-mode loss measurem= ent for this purpose using RFC 6374 loss measurement message (see draft-mirmin-bfd-extended-03).<= /span>

    • Is the proposed solution technically viable?

    There are too many unaddressed aspects, particularly= the risk introduced by the protocol on network security, to comprehensivel= y evaluate the proposed solution.

    <RG> Abou= t your comment on zero checksum, this is described in Security section in R= FC 6936. We will add reference to this RFC in our Security Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in the = domain by the operator for TWAMP. Other than this, I did not find any other= security related issue in your review below.

    GIM>> I don't think that a mere reference = sufficiently explains why the use of zero UDP checksum in IPv6 header is no= t decremental, does not create a security risk for the protocol.<= /u>

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gyan> Agreed 0 UDP MIMA security th= reats and that you need to thorough vetting of RFC 6936.

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> Yes= , will add in the next revision. Hope we can work together on needed text.<= u>

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    GIM>> I cannot find where RFC 5357 defines &qu= ot;the probe and response messages". Could you give a more specific re= ference or provide the text that, in your opinion, defines such messages? B= ut I'm more concerned with the direction of "extending" non-protocol referred to as "TWAMP Light". As a contributor to B= BF's=C2=A0TR-390, I'm have learned how different are existing imple= mentations of TWAMP Light. And that is also noted in EANTC Multi-Vendor Interoperability 2019 white paper. The status of TWA= MP Light is explained in RFC 8545 and I cannot see that it can be used as a= foundation of any standard.

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gyan> I don=E2=80=99t see the probe= a d response messages in TWAMP RFC 5357

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> Agr= ee to use term test-packet from RFC 5357.

    • several parts of the proposed protocol, e.g., Zero UDP checksum in IPv6, re= quire detailed security analysis, which is currently absent;<= /li>

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gyan> Agreed=C2=A0<= /u>

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> Ple= ase see previous reply.

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    <RG> This= is specified in RFC 6936 Security Section. We will add reference to this R= FC in our Security Section as well. This is only specific to the UDP port locally provisioned in the domain by the operator for TWAMP.

    GIM>>=C2=A0 I've noted above that a simple= reference does not sufficiently explains why the use of zero UDP checksum = in IPv6 header is not decremental, does not create a security risk for the = protocol. I believe that the proposal to use zero UDP header checksum requires extensive analysis, using the analysis provid= ed in RFC 6936.

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gyan> Completely Agree

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> Ple= ase see previous reply.

    =C2=A0

    • I was surprised to find out that=C2=A0draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm is on th= e Informational track even though it is essential to the new protocol as it= defines its key elements
    <RG> This was to address your previous comment quoted as=
:
     =
=E2=80=9C- as I understand, the=
 draft is applicable to TWAMP Light mode,

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 mentioned in the informati= onal Appendix I in RFC 5357, not the TWAMP

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 protocol itself. Since TWA= MP Light is not a standard but its idea is

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 described in the informati= onal text only, I think that the Informational

    =C2=A0 track is more appropriate for th= is specification.=E2=80=9D

    https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/bGTsJmJ5-eC3B-mfDCXA= FiCAC3o/

    <RG> Havi= ng said that, we are ok to change to PS.

    GIM>> As explained in RFC 8545 "TWAMP Lig= ht is an idea", not a protocol. If anyone is interested in standardizi= ng an "extension", I'd expect that they first define the base= specification to which the extension applies. I might have missed the definition of TWAMP Light protocol in the draft. Could you point to the definition, for example, of the Authenticated mode i= n TWAMP Light in the=C2=A0draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm or RFC 5357?=C2=A0=

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gyan> Agreed=C2=A0<= /u>

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> The= Appendix I of RFC 5357 does have information on the Authentication mode. A= s specified there, this is based on user configured parameters.

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    • I believe that=C2=A0draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm should be anchored at IP= PM WG as it does introduce the new PM protocol.

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    <RG> The = TWAMP Light extension draft-gandhi-= ippm-twamp-srpm is already in IPPM WG. The SPRING draf= t only defines SR PM procedures.

    =C2=A0

    Below, please find my detailed=C2=A0comments, questi= ons on these drafts:

    • draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm

    I have several questions about the relationships bet= ween this draft and Appendix I in RFC 5357 where the idea of a mode known a= s TWAMP Light has been mentioned. The nature of the TWAMP Light and what is required to make it a standard is well-explained i= n Section 4 of=C2=A0RFC 8545=C2=A0(apologies for the long quote):

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0"TWAMP Light" is an idea desc= ribed in Appendix I ("TWAMP Light
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0(Informative)") of [RFC5357]; TWAMP Light includes an uns= pecified
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0control protocol combined with the TWAMP-Test protocol.=C2=A0 = In
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC5357], the TWAMP Light idea was relegated to Appendix I be= cause
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0TWAMP Light failed to meet the requirements for IETF protocols= (there
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0are no specifications for negotiating this form of operation a= nd no
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0specifications for mandatory-to-implement security features), = as
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0described in Appendix A of this memo.=C2=A0 See also [LarsAD] = and
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0[TimDISCUSS].

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0Since the idea of TWAMP Light clearly includes the TWAMP-Test<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0component of TWAMP, it is considered reasonable for future sys= tems to
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0use the TWAMP-Test well-known UDP port (whose reallocated assi= gnment
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0is specified in this document).=C2=A0 Clearly, the TWAMP Light= idea
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0envisions many components and communication capabilities beyon= d
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0TWAMP-Test (implementing the security requirements, for exampl= e);
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0otherwise, Appendix I of [RFC5357] would be one sentence long<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0(equating TWAMP Light with TWAMP-Test only).

    =C2=A0

    Since we don't have an IETF document that addres= sed these open questions, I don't think we can have a draft that propos= es extensions to a non-standard mechanism (Appendix is for Informational material, as I understand it) on the Standard track.<= u>

    =C2=A0Gyan> Agreed=C2=A0

    <RG2> The= procedure for using the RFC 5357 defined messages in TWAMP Light configuration mode is defined in the corresponding spring drafts. It also = describes the provisioning model.

    <= /blockquote>
    <= div>GIM2>> If a return path can be provisioned for TWAMP Light, why t= he same method of controlling a test session cannot be used for STAMP?

    =C2=A0

    <RG> This was to address your previous comment quoted as=

     =
=E2=80=9C- as I understand, the=
 draft is applicable to TWAMP Light mode,

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 mentioned in the informati= onal Appendix I in RFC 5357, not the TWAMP

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 protocol itself. Since TWA= MP Light is not a standard but its idea is

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 described in the informati= onal text only, I think that the Informational

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 track is more appropriate = for this specification.=E2=80=9D

    https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/bGTsJmJ5-eC3B-mfDCXA= FiCAC3o/

    <RG> Havi= ng said that, we are ok to change to PS as you mentioned above.

    <RG> BTW,= despite only difference of fixed vs. variable length payload in STAMP vs. = TWAMP Light, the STAMP is a proposed standard as RFC 8762 (and it uses the same approach of provisioning=C2=A0 as defined in this draft). He= nce, security considerations for STAMP and TWAMP Light are not different. N= ote that both STAMP and TWAMP Light have authenticated messages defined for= Security purpose.

    GIM>> RFC 5357 mentioned TWAMP Light as an una= uthenticated, and thus the light, simpler, version of TWAMP-Test component = of TWAMP protocol. I cannot find in=C2=A0draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm def= inition of the Authenticated mode of TWAMP Light. Also, I'll prefer not to refer to RFC 8762 STAMP in the discussion of = "extension" to TWAMP Light.

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> The= Authentication information is user-configured as shown in Section 3.1 of the draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm, and is also described in Append= ix I of RFC 5357.

    =C2=A0

    Now a number of more specific questions.

    draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm:

    • In the Introduction it is stated that:

    =C2=A0 The TWAMP Light [Appendix I in RFC5357] [BBF.= TR-390] provides
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0simplified mechanisms for active performance measurement in Cu= stomer
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0IP networks by provisioning UDP paths and eliminates the need = for
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0control-channel signaling.

    I can not=C2=A0find where, either Appendix I or TR-3= 90, "eliminated the need for control-channel signaling". Also, co= uld you point where the referenced documents describe "provisioning UDP paths"?

    =C2=A0

    <RG> The Appendix I of RFC 5357 has following text. We c=
an reword and match the exact text if you prefer.

    =
=C2=A0
    

    =
=E2=80=9CThis example eliminate=
s the need for the TWAMP-Control protocol, and
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 assumes that the Ses=
sion-Reflector is configured=E2=80=9D

    GIM>> I think that the text you're proposi= ng is even more confusing. It is not clear which example the sentence is re= ferring to. Also, what is the basis for such an assumption?=C2=A0=

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> Thi= s is the exact text from RFC 5357 Appendix I. Please go through the entire = Section in that RFC 5357 to avoid =E2=80=9Cout of context=E2=80=9D discussion.

    =C2=A0

    • It appears that the last paragraph in the Introduction describes the relati= onship with Appendix I of RFC 5357:

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0The procedure uses the mechanisms defin= ed in [RFC5357]
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0(TWAMP Light) and its extensions for Performance Measurement.<= u>

    I think that the reference must be to Appendix I, no= t RFC 5357. Also, could you please specify which extensions of TWAMP Light = have been used in this draft?

    <RG> We can add the Appendix I as reference in the next = revision. Extensions are defined in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm, we can ad= d this reference.

    GIM>> The problem, in my view, is that Appendi= x I of RFC 5357 must be a normative reference while it is, by its nature, a= n Informational document.=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> If = approved, it is fine to have informational draft/RFC in a normative referen= ce. But RFC 5357 is PS.

    • In Section 2.3 describing the reference model is noted:
      • <= /ul>

      =C2=A0 =C2=A0The probe response message is typically= sent to the sender node R1.

      In which scenarios the reflector acts differently? H= ow such behavior is related to the behavior of a TWAMP Session-Reflector, a= s defined in RFC 5357?

      <RG> Do you prefer we remove =E2=80=9Ctypically=E2=80=9D= from the sentence?

    GIM>> If that fits into the operational model = of the new protocol you're defining.=C2=A0

    • Also in Section 2.3 a Link is mentioned as an element directly connecting n= odes in the presented reference model. Could you clarify what is a Link? Is= it always a physical connection between two systems or a virtual?

    <RG> Both= , please see Section 4.1.3. =E2=80=9CLink=E2=80=9D is well known term used = in many existing RFCs (please see RFC 5613, 5340, 8330).

    GIM>> Thank you for the references. I couldn&#= 39;t find a definition of an object "Link" (capitalized) but only= "link" (lower case). Hence, since the draft consistently uses th= e capitalized form, I consider it to be something else, something different from a link.=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> Ok,= we can change Link to link in the next revision to avoid confusion.=

    • In Section 3 behavior of the reflector described as

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0... no PM state for delay or loss measu= rement need to be created on the
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0reflector node R5.

    That is in contradiction to the behavior of a TWAMP = Session-Reflector as defined in RFC 5357. Could you provide a reference to = an IETF standard where this behavior is defined? Also, how, without creating a state at the Session-Reflector, to achieve one-way= delay and synthetic loss measurement on a bidirectional SR tunnel?<= u>

    =C2=A0Gyan> Valid point=C2=A0

    <RG2> Bid= irectional SR tunnel may have an SR state but the statement above is that no PM (i.e. TWAMP Light) protocol session state is created for it.= We can clarify in the next revision.

    GIM2>> So-called stateless Session-Reflector in TWAMP Light i= s only one option. I am well-familiar with the implementation that uses the= stateful mode.=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    <RG> Quoting the text from Appendix I in RFC 5357. We ca= n quote the text as is.

    =E2=80=9CIn the case of TWAMP Lig=
ht, the Session-Reflector does not necessarily have knowledge of the sessio=
n state. =E2=80=9C

    GIM>> By the informational nature of Appendix = I, the text is not normative. I am familiar with the implementation of TWAM= P Light which does maintain the session state and thus supports one-way pac= ket loss measurement. If you require that the remote node does not maintain the state, the draft must define that as= part of the specifying the behavior of the protocol.

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> Ok,= we can discuss what information is to be maintained in that state on the r= eflector for synthetic packet loss. We can add appropriate text if you can help please.

    GIM2>> I don't see any reas= on to do that as that already defined in RFC 8762 and draft= -ietf-ippm-stamp-yang=C2=A0
    =

    =C2=A0<= /u>

    • Further, in Section 3 the selection of UDP port explained as the following:=

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0As specified in [RFC8545], the reflecto= r
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0supports the destination UDP port 862 for delay measurement pr= obe
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0messages by default.=C2=A0 This UDP port however, is not used = for loss
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0measurement probe messages.

    To the best of my understanding, as one of the contr= ibutors and=C2=A0Editors of RFC 8545, it re-allocated UDP port 862 for use = by a TWAMP Session-Reflector without excluding any type of measurement. Besides, in TWAMP delay and packet loss are measured in th= e same test session, using the same flow of TWAMP-Test packets.

    =C2=A0Gyan> Agreed=C2=A0

    <RG2> Yes= , we can use port 862 for both delay and synthetic packet loss =E2=80=93 they are using the same test packet. There is no change proposed in the dr= aft.

    GIM2>> Packet delay= and synthetic packet loss measurements are already supported in RFC 8762. = Are you proposing a new protocol to duplicate the STAMP functionalities?
    <= div>

    <RG> The = packet loss in existing RFC 5357 refers to synthetic loss as there is no su= pport for direct-mode loss in RFC 5357. We can change the text to clarify as =E2=80=9CThis UDP port however, is not used for direct-mode los= s measurement probe messages.=E2=80=9D

    GIM>> I've found that there's some mis= conception in the draft. RFC 8545 re-assigned UDP port 862 not for "de= lay measurement probe messages" but for TWAMP-Test protocol. TWAMP-Tes= t protocol, in turn, supports packet delay, packet loss, reordering (RFC 4737 defines packet reordering metric), and packet duplication measur= ement.

    • Then the draft states that

    The sender uses the UDP port number following the gu= idelines specified in Section 6 in [RFC6335].

    Could you point to the guidelines that a user can us= e when selecting a UDP port number of a test session?

    Gyan> Good point =C2=A0

    <RG> Please see section 6 in [RFC6335]. We can cite the = range which will be the same as used in [RFC8762]. This was also discussed = earlier.

    https://mailarchive.ietf.= org/arch/msg/ippm/ONYYhG9Y8sbiNO15bxWIRM9ymEE/

    GIM>> I've looked through Section 6 but I = don't find anything specifically applicable to this draft we're dis= cussing. If the protocol to use UDP port numbers from the Dynamic ports ran= ge, a.k.a., Private or Ephemeral, then it seems that stating that explicitly would be the best way.=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> This would be, User Ports and Dynam=
ic Ports ranges, which are defined in [RFC6335]. Yes, we can add this text.

    =C2=A0

    • At the closing of the paragraph, we read that

    =C2=A0 The number of UDP ports with PM functionality= needs to be minimized due
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0to limited hardware resources.

    Does a UDP port number pose PM functionality? How it= is assigned to the port number?

    <RG> UDP = ports are user configured for delay and direct-mode loss PM as described in= Section 3.1.

    GIM>> Can UDP port 862 be used? Also, requirin= g that the direct-loss measurement uses port number different from the one = used by a TWAMP-Test packet, in my opinion, is another indication that this= is the definition of a different from TWAMP Light PM OAM protocol.

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> If = we add a field in the packet then UDP port 862 may be used along with the n= ew field. But it will require extra processing in hardware. It is better to use a different UDP port for processing efficien= cy in hardware.

    =C2=A0<= /u>

    • Following the above-quoted text, in Section 3 is noted:
      • <= /ul>

      =C2=A0 =C2=A0For Performance Measurement, probe quer= y and response messages are
      =C2=A0 =C2=A0sent as following:

      Could you clarify if the listed further procedures d= eviate from OWAMP/TWAMP or follow procedures defined in RFC 4656 and RFC 53= 57 for Session-Sender and Session-Reflector respectively?

      <RG> Probe messages follow the same procedure as defined= in RFC 4656 and RFC 5357.

    GIM>> All messages, i.e., TWAMP-Test packets a= s well as the defined in=C2=A0draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm?=C2=A0=

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> Yes= , unless otherwise specified in the draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm.

    =C2=A0

    • for both delay and loss measurements draft requires test packet be transmit= ted on a congruent path:

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the probe messages are sent on = the
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 congruent path of the data traffic by the sender node<= u>

    It is not clear what "the congruent path" = means. The definition of=C2=A0congruency in geometry tells us that an objec= t B is congruent=C2=A0to object A if it has the same shape and size, but is allowed to flip, slide or turn. How a path can be congruent to another = path?

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gyan> Agreed.=C2=A0 Th= e use of congruent in the context of pathing is confusing as the path being= addressed may not be reflected accurately by the term congruent.=

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> As = replied above.

    =C2=A0<= /u>

    <RG> Ther= e are many existing RFCs that use term Congruent Path (e.g. RFC 5921, 6669)= without defining them. I suspect it is because it is well-known term. Having said that, we can add a reference for it if it helps reader.<= /span>

    GIM>> I cannot assume what was the context of = these RFCs. I've sketched a network diagram above to illustrate=C2=A0th= at a "congruent path" may well lead to out-of-band path. Is that = the intention of the authors of the draft to use this protocol out-of-band?

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> As = replied above.

    • The last paragraph in Section 3 refers to work on iOAM:
      • <= /ul>

      =C2=A0 =C2=A0The In-Situ Operations, Administration,= and Maintenance (IOAM)
      =C2=A0 =C2=A0mechanisms for SR-MPLS defined in [I-D.gandhi-mpls-ioam-sr] an= d for
      =C2=A0 =C2=A0SRv6 defined in [I-D.ali-spring-ioam-srv6] are used to carry P= M
      =C2=A0 =C2=A0information such as timestamp in-band as part of the data pack= ets,
      =C2=A0 =C2=A0and are outside the scope of this document.

      Is iOAM in the scope of this specification? What are= the relationships between iOAM and=C2=A0draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm?=

      <RG> As mentioned in the draft, IOAM is outside the scop= e.

    GIM>> Yes, but it appears that references to t= he two IOAM-related drafts have some purpose. What is it? How are these dra= fts related to=C2=A0draft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm?=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> We = can remove them if it is confusing. It is informational text (was added to = address a review comment).

    =C2=A0

    • Section 3.1 presents an example of the provisioning model but puts the defi= nition of the provisioning model outside the scope. Is there an accompanyin= g specification that defines the provisioning model that can be used in mul= ti-vendor deployment? Could that be YANG data model? What is the relationship with=C2=A0draft-= ietf-ippm-twamp-yang? Would the TWAMP YANG data model be augmented?<= /u>

    <RG> Yes,= this can be Yang model. We can review draft-ietf-ippm-tw= amp-yang and add any missin= g items in a separate draft. We can also add a reference in this draft.

    GIM>> I think that theremust=C2=A0be some disc= ussion on how the new protocol is configured. If TWAMP YANG data model can = be augmented, I'd expect that being defined in=C2=A0draft-gandhi-ippm-t= wamp-srpm. But I couldn't find anything about the configuration of the protocol.=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> The= Yang model extensions are not in the scope of this draft.

    =C2=A0

    • Section 4.1 states that a new message is introduced to perform the Loss Mea= surement in this protocol Why the capability of TWAMP to measure the loss i= n one-way and two-way is not sufficient?

    <RG> Exis= ting TWAMP messages do not support =E2=80=9Cdirect-mode=E2=80=9D loss measu= rement. We can add =E2=80=9Cdirect-mode=E2=80=9D in the text to clarify.

    GIM>> True, direct loss measurement, in fact, = is not active measurement and thus is outside the scope of Two-Way Active M= easurement Protocol (TWAMP). The direct-loss measurement is, by the definit= ion of RFC 7799, passive measurement method and fetching counters can be done using numerous methods, e.g., SNMP, Netc= onf.

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> RFC= 7799 does not say using Test-packets to collect counters for direct-mod lo= ss measurement is passive.

    <= /div>
    GIM2>> Per RFC 7799, injecting in-= band test packets is the characteristic of an active measurement method. Us= ing out-of-band transport, e.g., SNMP queries, would be an example of a pas= sive measurement method.

    =C2=A0

    • Section 4.1.1 requires that

    =C2=A0 The Destination UDP port cannot be used as So= urce port, since
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0the message does not have any indication to distinguish betwee= n the
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0query and response message.

    Does that imply that the Destination UDP port used f= or the Delay measurement is unique throughout the particular domain?=

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Gyan> Good question=C2= =A0

    <RG2> Yes= , it is unique in the domain.

    <RG> This= is user-defined and is up to the user what UDP port to provision in a doma= in.

    GIM>> So, can user configure a port number fro= m the User Ports range? Or, can the same port number be used on the same sy= stem for a number of test sessions? I find the use of UDP port numbers bein= g underspecified.

    • Section 4.1.2 of RFC 5357 does not define "the delay measurement messa= ge" but refers to the definition of the Session-Sender's test pack= et in RFC 4656 OWAMP. Note, that OWAMP and TWAMP are using a single test pa= cket format to perform both delay and packet loss measurement.

    <RG> Ok, = we can update the text in the next revision to indicate exact name from the= RFC 4656. We can also add text to include synthetic packet loss.=

    GIM>> I think that making it explicit would he= lp. Also, that will highlight what is being introduced by *twamp-srpm draft= s is, in fact, a new protocol to perform synthetic packet loss measurement.= =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> No,= it does not change anything for synthetic packet loss.

    • Can you explain how "the DM probe query message contains the payload f= ormat defined in Section 4.2.1 of [RFC5357]" when the referenced secti= on of RFC 5357 defines the format of a Session-Reflector's test packet?=

    <RG> We c= an update the text in the next revision to indicate query format name from = RFC 5357.

    GIM>> I cannot find any reference to a query f= ormat in RFCs 4656/5357. Could you please quote from any of these documents= ?

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> It = is test-packet, we will use RFC 5357 term.

    • Can clarify the applicability of RFC 6038 and the symmetrical packet size? = Is it required? Can it be non-symmetrical?
    <RG> Yes. Please see section 4.1.1 and quoted below:
    =E2=80=9CFor symmetrical size que=
ry and response messages as defined in [RFC6038],=E2=80=9D=

    GIM>> RFC 6038 defines an extension to RFC 535= 7 for OPTIONAL use of the symmetrical test packets. Since *-twamp-srpm prop= osals do not use TWAMP-Control protocol and Appendix I in RFC 5357 tells us= nothing about that either (in part because RFC 6038 came later), I don't see that there's any certainty in wh= at is the sze of a test packet used in the direct-loss measurement.=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> The= test-packets as defined in these existing RFCs are used for delay and synt= hetic packet loss. The direct-mode test-packets are defined in this draft.

    GIM2>> This draft defines only a new = packet format for the direct packet loss measurement. For STAMP such a mech= anism is clearly superfluous given the Direct Measurement TLV is already de= fined.

    • Can you clarify the use of the timestamp format, NTP or PTPv2? It is not cl= ear which is the default, mandatory or optional.

    <RG> This= is same as TWAMP. There is no change.

    GIM>> Per RFC 5357, TWAMP uses only NTP format= . Is that the case for *-twamp-srpm?=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> No = change in existing in what is there in RFC 5357 and RFC 8186.=

    • Also, is "hardware support in Segment Routing networks" of the PT= Pv2 format required, guaranteed, or something else?

    <RG> Hard= ware timestamps are recommended for SR use-cases. We can change the sentenc= e.

    GIM>> Perhaps you can propose some text, that = would be helpful.=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> Ack= .

    • Section 4.1.1.1 stated that

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0A separate user-configured
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0destination UDP port is used for the delay measurement in
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0authentication mode due to the different probe message format.=

    Can that be interpreted that there could be concurre= nt authenticated and unauthenticated test sessions using this protocol? Wou= ld different authentication methods require using unique destination UDP port numbers?

    <RG> Yes,= and Yes, and these are based on provisioning.

    GIM>> But that requirement is far outside the = TWAMP, as defined in RFC 5357.

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> Som= e Session-Sender can use authenticated and some not. It is part of RFC 5357= .

    • Section 4.1.2 by introducing the dedicated Loss measurement packet format, = effectively modifies the behavior defined in RFC 5357 for Session-Sender an= d Session-Reflector. But the document does not state that. Can you clarify = whether this specification changes the behavior of a Session-Sender and Session-Reflector as defined in RFC 4= 656 and RFC 5357 respectively for the support of packet loss measurement?

    <RG> The = direct-mode loss defines new procedure for sender/reflector to collect traf= fic counters, as opposed to timestamp. The rest is the same as RFC 4656 and 5357.

    GIM>> I cannot agree with your statement "= ; The rest is the same as RFC 4656 and 5357" because the sender's = direct-loss format does not have Error Estimate field, Thus, a reflected pa= cket does not have Sender's Error Estimate, nor Error Estimate of the reflector. And that, in my opinion, is another clear indic= ation that *twamp-srpm drafts define a new protocol, separate from OWAMP/TW= AMP.

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> Tha= t field is specific to timestamps and would not apply to counters for direc= t-mode loss measurement.

    =C2=A0

    • And a similar question about the use of the separate UDP port number for th= e authenticated of the packet loss measurement.
    • A couple of question to the following text in Section 4.1.3:<= /li>

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0The local and remote IP
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0addresses of the link are used as Source and Destination Addre= sses.
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0They can also be IPv6 link local address as probe messages are= pre-
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0routed.

      • What are the addresses of a link?

    <RG> I am= assuming this well-known (e.g. RFC 2328).

    GIM>> I am not familiar with the term "pr= e-routed". What does it mean?=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> Ens= ure that packets are routed over the link.

      • In which scenarios an IPv6 LLA can be used?

    <RG> I am= assuming this is well-known (e.g. RFC 5613).

    GIM>> So, LLA may be used as the source and de= stination addresses when testing an SR tunnel?=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> As = mentioned this is for links.

    =C2=A0

      • Also, could the use of a routable destination IP address be used as a DDOS = attack vector? Consider the scenario when an attacker generates SR-encapsul= ated packets with the destination IP address other than any of the SR-termi= nating nodes. Such=C2=A0a=C2=A0packet will be routed, correct? That does appear as a security threat, would you agree= ?

    <RG> Abso= lutely do not agree. It is no different than IP routed TWAMP packet as defi= ned in [RFC5357].

    GIM>> You don't agree that the processing = described cannot happen because of laws of physics or it wouldn't happe= n because no one will think of that? If the latter, I think that that is se= curity threat.

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> The= re is no new threat like you have mentioned.

    GIM2>> Hmmm, but= how the integrity of TLVs proposed in=C2=A0draft-gandhi-ippm-stamp-srpm ca= n=C2=A0be protected? These are not protected by HMAC as presented in figure= s 3 and 5.

    • Section 4.1.4.2 references Figure 5 that, as I understand it, displays the= =C2=A0format of a probe query message. In figure two references to RFC 5357= are provided - a section that references RFC 4656 OWAMP definition of the = Session-Sender test packet, and a section that defines the Session-Reflector's reflected packet. Which of the tw= o is used for the delay measurement in the proposed protocol?=

    <RG> The = probe query packet in the Session-Sender text packet. We can update the nam= e.

    • Section 4.2.1 states that

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0In one-way measurement mode, the probe = response message as defined in
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0Figure 6 is sent back out-of-band to the sender node ...

    Could you clarify how the responder controls that th= e response packet is sent not in-band but out-of-band?

    <RG> Plea= se refer to section 3.1 in draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm.=C2=A0 This is exis= ting behaviour for out-of-band.

    GIM>>=C2=A0draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm does n= ot specify that it defines another new protocol OWAMP Light. And it is not = clear what you reference as "this is existing behavior". Is it to= reference behavior of TWAMP test packet? But the behavior of the TWAMP-Test protocol by itself is neither in-band, nor out-of-band. = It is the encapsulation of the TWAMP test packet that makes it either in-ba= nd or out-of-band.=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> Rig= ht.

    GIM>> So, you believe that proposing to use th= e method described in RFC 8403 for the TWAMP packet is innovation? And what= are the benefits of using the TWAMP test packet format in the Loopback mod= e?

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> Ple= ase see the draft.

    • What is the rationale for setting TTL/Hop Limit fields always to 255 for IP= v4, MPLS, and IPv6 (per Section 4.3.1)?

    <RG> This= is as defined in Section 4.2 of RFC 5357 (Bullet 4).<= /p>

    GIM>> I believe you've misunderstood the t= ext in RFC 5357. This bullet specifies the behavior of a Session-Reflector.= It is to try to read TTL value of the received TWAMP test packet and copy = the value in Sender TTL field of the reflected packet. If the Session-Reflector cannot access the TTL field, it MUST writ= e 255 in the Sender TTL field. So, I think that my questions still remains.=

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> Ple= ase see Section 4.2.1 of RFC 5357.

    • Section 4.3.3 states that a zero-value UDP checksum may be used in some sce= narios. RFC 8085 allows that but in very specific cases that are documented= in detail in Section 3.4.1. Do you believe that the case of this protocol = checks all the requirements for allowing the use of Zero UDP checksum as specified in RFC 8085? Also, I be= lieve that allowing the use of Zero UDP checksum in some scenarios, this pr= otocol introduces a security threat that must be thoroughly analyzed in the= Security Considerations section.

    <RG> This= is described in RFC 6936. It will be very specific to the UDP port provisi= oned for TWAMP. We will add reference to RFC 6936 in Security Section.

    GIM>> I don't think that the reference is = sufficient for the Securit=C2=A0Consideration. I'd expect some extended= discussion on why using zero UDP header checksum is not a security threat = for *twamp-srpm=C2=A0 protocol.

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> Ple= ase see reply above.

    • Section 8 refers to "liveness monitoring of Links and SR Paths". = This appears as the replication of functionality provided by BFD/S-BFD prot= ocols. Is such comparison accurate? If it is, shouldn't the proposal be= also reviewed by the BFD WG?

    <RG> TWAM= P=C2=A0 probe messages are used today for synthetic packet loss which can a= lso be used to detect connection loss (performance metric). The section simply highlights this obvious metric.

    GIM>> Can you point to a document that has def= ined "TWAMP=C2=A0 probe messages are used today for synthetic packet l= oss"? Also, which document defines loss of connectivity as a performan= ce metric? Does *twamp-srpm proposes to use the new protocol to detect the loss of path continuity?

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> For= example Y.1731 has such notion of connection loss. TWAMP is used widely fo= r synthetic packet loss and is well-known. There is no change in protocol. This is reported metric.

    <= /div>
    =

    • I found the Security Section of the proposed protocol inadequately terse an= d missing very important threats that this protocol introduces in the netwo= rk.

    <RG> Othe= r than referring RFC 6936 for zero checksum what else is missing? Otherwise= it is no different than RFC 8762 (STAMP).

    GIM>> I cannot see how RFC 8762 is relevant to= *twamp-srpm drafts. The use of source IP addresses, as mentioned above, ap= pears to be another security risk introduced by *-twamp-srpm drafts.=C2=A0<= u>

    =C2=A0

    <RG2> The= re is no mention of Source IP address above.

    • draft-gandhi-ippm-twamp-srpm

    As I understand it, the motivation for the Loss Meas= urement mode defined in this specification is to collect "in-profile&q= uot; counters. Is that correct? Do you see as essential for this mode that the query messages are in-band with the flow being profiled= ? In your opinion, how using an out-of-band method of collecting these coun= ters, e.g., by using ICMP multi-part=C2=A0message extension per RFC 4884, c= ould affect the accuracy comparing with the method in this protocol? How the impact changes if extended ICMP messa= ges are in-band with the profiled flow?

    =C2=A0<RG2&g= t; Yes, they need to be in-band with the flow, to collect the counter from the right forwarding paths for the flow. Discussion of using ICMP for= direct-mode loss measurement is outside the scope of this draft.

    =
    • Section 3.1 introduces the new field, Sender Control Code. The format of th= e packet, as I understand it, is presented in Figure 1. When comparing with= the format of Session-Sender's test packet defined in RFC 4656 OWAMP i= n Section 4.1.2 I've noticed that there are no MBZ fields. Are these introduced by your proposal?

    <RG> It s= hows the partial message that has new field. We can update it to show the f= ull message to avoid such confusion.

    • Also, it appears that the Sequence Number field in TWAMP Session-Sender'= ;s test packet is absent in Figure 1. Is that intentional?

    <RG> It s= hows the partial message that has new field. We can update it to show the f= ull message to avoid such confusion.

    Thanks,<= u>

    Rakesh

    =C2=A0

    Regards,

    Greg

    =C2=A0Thanks=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Gyan=C2=A0=

    =C2=A0

    On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 5:51 AM James Guichard <<= a href=3D"mailto:james.n.guichard@futurewei.com" target=3D"_blank">james.n.= guichard@futurewei.com> wrote:

    Dear WG:

    =C2=A0

    This message starts a 3 week WG= adoption call for document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr= aft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-11 ending Nove= mber 12th 2020. Please note that this document has several changes from v-10 that were requested by the SPR= ING and IPPM chairs. For this reason, the chairs have extended the adoption= call for an additional week to allow the WG enough time to review these ch= anges before deciding on WG adoption.

    =C2=A0

    Some background: =C2=A0<= u>

    =C2=A0

    Several review comments were re= ceived previously for document https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr= aft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10. The SPRING and IPPM chairs considered those comments, and upon revie= w of this version of the document, determined the following:<= /p>

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    These conclusions were discussed with the authors of= =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr= aft-gandhi-spring-twamp-srpm-10 the result of which is the publication of the following two documents:

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    After review of the SPRING document please indicate = support (or not) for WG adoption to the mailing list. Please also provide comments/reasons for that support = (or lack thereof) as silence will not be considered as consent.

    =C2=A0

    Finally, the chairs would like = to thank the authors for their efforts in this matter.=

    =C2=A0

    Thanks!

    =C2=A0

    Jim, Bruno, & Joel

    =C2=A0

    _______________________________________________
    spring mailing list
    spring@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

    =C2=A0

    _______________________________________________
    spring mailing list
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    Gyan Mishra

    Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0

    M 301 502-1347
    13101 Columbia Pike=C2=A0
    Silver Spring, MD

    =C2=A0

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