From nobody Tue Aug 3 09:26:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietf.org Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D6033A2919; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 09:26:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Secretariat To: , , X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.35.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <162800797114.4761.10926939437145761814@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 09:26:11 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] The IPPM WG has placed draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued" X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 16:26:11 -0000 The IPPM WG has placed draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment in state Call For Adoption By WG Issued (entered by Tommy Pauly) The document is available at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment/ From nobody Tue Aug 3 09:26:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietf.org Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD4883A292F; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 09:26:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Secretariat To: , , X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.35.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <162800799689.1624.11842748026500923675@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 09:26:36 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] The IPPM WG has placed draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued" X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 16:26:37 -0000 The IPPM WG has placed draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity in state Call For Adoption By WG Issued (entered by Tommy Pauly) The document is available at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity/ From nobody Tue Aug 3 09:28:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4131D3A291F for ; 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Tue, 03 Aug 2021 09:28:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Tommy Pauly Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3257C765-EFC7-4A51-AB30-79FDC73B370A" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3681.0.2.1.2\)) Message-id: <69C9F697-A970-41DD-B7EF-0C17204D57AA@apple.com> Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 09:28:38 -0700 To: "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3681.0.2.1.2) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-08-03_05:2021-08-03, 2021-08-03 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity documents X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 16:28:46 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3257C765-EFC7-4A51-AB30-79FDC73B370A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello IPPM, As discussed in our meeting last week, we will be starting an adoption = call for two IOAM-related documents that have been raised as important = dependencies during the IESG review of IOAM-data. This email begins a Working Group adoption call for two documents: Integrity of In-situ OAM Data Fields = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity/= = = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity-0= 3.html = In-situ OAM Deployment https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment/ = = = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployme= nt-03 = This call will last until Wednesday, August 18. Please reply to this = email with your comments, and if you think these documents should be = taken on by IPPM. Best, Tommy & Ian= --Apple-Mail=_3257C765-EFC7-4A51-AB30-79FDC73B370A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hello= IPPM,

As discussed = in our meeting last week, we will be starting an adoption call for two = IOAM-related documents that have been raised as important dependencies = during the IESG review of IOAM-data.

This email begins a Working Group = adoption call for two documents:

Integrity of In-situ = OAM Data Fields
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data= -integrity/
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-= integrity-03.html

In-situ OAM Deployment
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-de= ployment/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-brockners-opsawg-io= am-deployment-03

This call will last until Wednesday, August = 18. Please reply to this email with your comments, and if you think = these documents should be taken on by IPPM.

Best,
Tommy & = Ian
= --Apple-Mail=_3257C765-EFC7-4A51-AB30-79FDC73B370A-- From nobody Tue Aug 3 15:01:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42BAC3A347F; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 15:01:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=att.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WHdaX0vrTDrO; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 15:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.149.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C0B93A3483; Tue, 3 Aug 2021 15:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0048589.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0048589.ppops.net-00191d01. 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR02MB7853.namprd02.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: db34feb4-73b6-4686-d045-08d956ca2cfc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 03 Aug 2021 22:00:58.6509 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: e741d71c-c6b6-47b0-803c-0f3b32b07556 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: IEQOVYkomCbF7yUcd4F6kq9HwLpx2OFk3b1uDlctucCpUlCY4yADbftGBIdjTJVL X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY5PR02MB6292 X-OriginatorOrg: att.com X-TM-SNTS-SMTP: EDB2C43876BE019FDF4E55A03774173E462B08FE8AC5EE781C443F97E1F327DE2 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: 31TA4z_l2HirYHxK-xUOjbRYgCB_kOH3 X-Proofpoint-GUID: 31TA4z_l2HirYHxK-xUOjbRYgCB_kOH3 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-08-03_05:2021-08-03, 2021-08-03 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 clxscore=1015 priorityscore=1501 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2107140000 definitions=main-2108030135 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Proposed changes to default settings in the Capacity metric load adjustment algorithm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 22:01:28 -0000 IPPM, I want to point out that some recent results conducted by others encouraged= us to test some additional values for seq error threshold and a wider valu= e range of values for consecutive errored status (during feedback intervals= ). We discovered that we would like to revise the default values to make t= he load adjustment a little less-sensitive to non-congestion-related loss a= nd protect the fast ramp-up from ending prematurely. For example, a very sh= ort burst of lost packets spanning the boundary between two feedback interv= als is currently sufficient to end fast ramp-up. The current table in 8.1 contains: +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ | Parameter | Default | Tested Range | Expected Safe Range | | | | or values | (not entirely tested, | | | | | other values NOT | | | | | RECOMMENDED) | +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ ... +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ | sequence | 0 | 0, 100 | same as tested | | error | | | | | threshold | | | | +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ | consecutive | 2 | 2 | Use values >1 to | | errored | | | avoid misinterpreting | | status | | | transient loss | +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ The revised table rows would look like this: +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ | Parameter | Default | Tested Range | Expected Safe Range | | | | or values | (not entirely tested, | | | | | other values NOT | | | | | RECOMMENDED) | +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ ... +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ | sequence | 10 | 0,1,5,10,100 | same as tested | | error | | | | | threshold | | | | +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ | consecutive | 3 | 2,3,4,5 | Use values >1 to | | errored | | | avoid misinterpreting | | status | | | transient loss | +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ Somehow, persistent non-congestion-related loss had mostly eluded our previ= ous tests. But our goal has been to provide default values that will work i= n automated testing run by anyone in any implementation or circumstances - = not just ~expert users and those who run the udpst utility. So we'd like to change default values for: seq error threshold from 0 to 10 consecutive errored status from 2 to 3 and update our tested range/values column as well. Al From nobody Fri Aug 6 03:13:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29CE33A27E1 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 03:13:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZsGkRmw03MC8 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 03:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta1.chinamobile.com (cmccmta1.chinamobile.com [221.176.66.79]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEAE53A27DE for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2021 03:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spf.mail.chinamobile.com (unknown[172.16.121.13]) by rmmx-syy-dmz-app03-12003 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee3610d0b450f5-21d12; Fri, 06 Aug 2021 18:13:26 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee3610d0b450f5-21d12 X-RM-TagInfo: emlType=0 X-RM-SPAM-FLAG: 00000000 Received: from DESKTOP-KR7OIA4 (unknown[10.2.53.39]) by rmsmtp-syy-appsvr07-12007 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee7610d0b44bbf-135d7; Fri, 06 Aug 2021 18:13:26 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee7610d0b44bbf-135d7 Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 18:13:26 +0800 From: "wangminxue@chinamobile.com" To: ippm Cc: =?GB2312?B?uqvB+NHg?= , "zhangshengli (A)" , "Yangfan (IP Standard)" X-Priority: 3 X-Has-Attach: no X-Mailer: Foxmail 7.2.20.269[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2021080618132603376153@chinamobile.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_001_NextPart332431420251_=----" Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Welcome review and comments on draft-hwyh-ippm-ps-inband-flow-learning-00 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2021 10:13:44 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_001_NextPart332431420251_=---- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RGVhciBXRyBhbmQgY2hhaXJzLA0KDQpUaGUgQXV0aG9ycyAgaGF2ZSBzdWJtaXR0ZWQgYW5kIHBy ZXNlbnRlZCBhIEZsb3cgTGVhcm5pbmcgZHJhZnQgYXQgSUVURjExMS4gSG9wZSBleHBlcnRzIGlu dGVyZXN0ZWQgaW4gdGhpcyBkcmFmdCBjYW4gcmV2aWV3IGFuZCBnaXZlIGNvbW1lbnRzfg0KDQpO YW1lOiBkcmFmdC1od3loLWlwcG0tcHMtaW5iYW5kLWZsb3ctbGVhcm5pbmcNClJldmlzaW9uOiAw MA0KVGl0bGU6IFByb2JsZW0gU3RhdGVtZW50IGFuZCBSZXF1aXJlbWVudCBmb3IgSW5iYW5kIEZs b3cgTGVhcm5pbmcNCkRvY3VtZW50IGRhdGU6IDIwMjEtMDctMDgNCkdyb3VwOiBJbmRpdmlkdWFs IFN1Ym1pc3Npb24NClBhZ2VzOiA3DQpVUkw6IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL2FyY2hpdmUv aWQvZHJhZnQtaHd5aC1pcHBtLXBzLWluYmFuZC1mbG93LWxlYXJuaW5nLTAwLnR4dA0KU3RhdHVz OiBodHRwczovL2RhdGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL2RvYy9kcmFmdC1od3loLWlwcG0tcHMtaW5i YW5kLWZsb3ctbGVhcm5pbmcvDQpIdG1saXplZDogaHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRmLm9y Zy9kb2MvaHRtbC9kcmFmdC1od3loLWlwcG0tcHMtaW5iYW5kLWZsb3ctbGVhcm5pbmcNCg0KDQpB YnN0cmFjdDoNCiAgIEFsdGVybmF0ZS1NYXJraW5nIChjb2xvcmluZykgcHJvdmlkZXMgYSBtZXRo b2QgdG8gcGVyZm9ybSBwYWNrZXQNCiAgIGxvc3MsIGRlbGF5LCBhbmQgaml0dGVyIG1lYXN1cmVt ZW50cyBvbiBsaXZlIHRyYWZmaWMuICBBdCB0aGUgc2FtZQ0KICAgdGltZSwgb24tcGF0aCB0ZWxl bWV0cnkgdGVjaG5pcXVlcyBhcmUgdXNlZCB0byBlbmFibGUgdGhlIGNvbGxlY3Rpb24NCiAgIGFu ZCBjb3JyZWxhdGlvbiBvZiBwZXJmb3JtYW5jZSBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiB0byBmdXJ0aGVyIHN1cHBv cnQNCiAgIGF1dG9ub21vdXMgbmV0d29yayBvcGVyYXRpb25zLiAgSG93ZXZlciwgbmV0d29yayBv cGVyYXRvcnMgc3RpbGwgZmFjZQ0KICAgdGhlIGNoYWxsZW5nZSBvZiBpbmJhbmQgZmxvdyBpZGVu dGlmaWNhdGlvbiBpbiBsYXJnZSBzY2FsZQ0KICAgZGVwbG95bWVudC4gIFRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQg YWRkcmVzc2VzIHRoZSBwcm9ibGVtcyBieSBpbnRyb2R1Y2luZyB0aGUNCiAgIHJlYWwgbmV0d29y ayBzY2VuYXJpb3MsIGFuZCBwcm9wb3NlcyB0aGUgcmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzIG9mIHN1cHBvcnRpbmcN CiAgIGluYmFuZCBmbG93IGxlYXJuaW5nIG9mIGZsb3cgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gdGVsZW1ldHJ5Lg0K DQoNCg0KLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0KzfXD9NGnLyBXYW5n IE1pbnh1ZQ0K1tC5+tLGtq/NqNDF0dC+v9S6ILv5tKHN+MLnvLzK9dHQvr/L+SAvIENoaW5hIE1v YmlsZSBSZXNlYXJjaCBJbnN0aXR1dGUNCrXY1rc6ILGxvqnK0M73s8fH+ND7zuTDxc73tPO91jMy usW0tNDCtPPPwywxMDAwNTMNCrXnu7A6IDAxMC0xNTgwMTY5NjY4OC0zMzIwMg0KtKvV5qO6MDEw LTYzNjAxMDg3DQpFbWFpbDogd2FuZ21pbnh1ZUBjaGluYW1vYmlsZS5jb20NCi0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NCg== ------=_001_NextPart332431420251_=---- Content-Type: text/html; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Support the adoption of both documents (as author).<= o:p>

 

Cheers, Frank

 

From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> O= n Behalf Of Tommy Pauly
Sent: Dienstag, 3. August 2021 18:29
To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity docu= ments

 

Hello IPPM,

 

As discussed in our meeting last week, we will be st= arting an adoption call for two IOAM-related documents that have been raise= d as important dependencies during the IESG review of IOAM-data.=

 

This email begins a Working Group adoption call for = two documents:

 

 

In-situ OAM Deployment

 

This call will last until Wednesday, August 18. Please reply to this email with your comments, and if you think these do= cuments should be taken on by IPPM.

 

Best,

Tommy & Ian

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Wed, 11 Aug 2021 02:32:43 +0000 From: "Rakesh Gandhi (rgandhi)" To: Tommy Pauly , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Thread-Topic: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity documents Thread-Index: AQHXiISxjduF1QvbAUCAlLDMNV4WKattn7XB Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 02:32:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: <69C9F697-A970-41DD-B7EF-0C17204D57AA@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <69C9F697-A970-41DD-B7EF-0C17204D57AA@apple.com> Accept-Language: en-CA, en-US Content-Language: en-CA X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: dmarc.ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc.ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 2900f077-fbd4-4f44-af04-08d95c704c13 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BL1PR11MB5511: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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boundary="_000_BL3PR11MB573139FFA068E06D12C64738BFF89BL3PR11MB5731namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BL3PR11MB5731.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 2900f077-fbd4-4f44-af04-08d95c704c13 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Aug 2021 02:32:43.0215 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 5Cu3PGD/v7LYNvgQuMXMWkYYwfLEBxdQLeuLuj6mpDfSFheRsgqdltn9ykkMra8+ZxWFH1HgK7nDCBsPCCC6LA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL1PR11MB5511 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.19, xbe-aln-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-7.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity documents X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 02:32:51 -0000 --_000_BL3PR11MB573139FFA068E06D12C64738BFF89BL3PR11MB5731namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi WG, Chairs, I have been following the IOAM work as part of draft-gandhi-mpls-ioam. Both of these documents (listed below) are useful and support the WG adopti= on of them. Thanks, Rakesh From: ippm on behalf of Tommy Pauly Date: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 at 12:29 PM To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Subject: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity documents Hello IPPM, As discussed in our meeting last week, we will be starting an adoption call= for two IOAM-related documents that have been raised as important dependen= cies during the IESG review of IOAM-data. This email begins a Working Group adoption call for two documents: Integrity of In-situ OAM Data Fields https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity/ https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity-03= .html In-situ OAM Deployment https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deploymen= t-03 This call will last until Wednesday, August 18. Please reply to this email = with your comments, and if you think these documents should be taken on by = IPPM. Best, Tommy & Ian --_000_BL3PR11MB573139FFA068E06D12C64738BFF89BL3PR11MB5731namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi WG, Chairs,

I have been following the IOAM work as part of draft-gandhi-mpls-i= oam.

Both of these documents (listed below) are useful and support the = WG adoption of them.

Thanks,

Rakesh

 

 

From: ippm <ippm-bounc= es@ietf.org> on behalf of Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.iet= f.org>
Date: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 at 12:29 PM
To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity docu= ments

Hello IPPM,

 

As discussed in our meeting last week, we will be st= arting an adoption call for two IOAM-related documents that have been raise= d as important dependencies during the IESG review of IOAM-data.=

 

This email begins a Working Group adoption call for = two documents:

 

 

In-situ OAM Deployment

 

This call will last until Wednesday, August 18. Please reply to this email with your comments, and if you think these do= cuments should be taken on by IPPM.

 

Best,

Tommy & Ian

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15.20.4394.023; Wed, 11 Aug 2021 02:58:14 +0000 From: "Srihari Raghavan (srihari)" To: Tommy Pauly , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Thread-Topic: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity documents Thread-Index: AQHXiISxBmA/vs7xXU6Npxsjt/jkRqtuBJyA Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 02:58:14 +0000 Message-ID: References: <69C9F697-A970-41DD-B7EF-0C17204D57AA@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <69C9F697-A970-41DD-B7EF-0C17204D57AA@apple.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.51.21071101 authentication-results: dmarc.ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc.ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 7991760e-b3ee-4479-f1e9-08d95c73dcc2 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM6PR11MB2746: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 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<69C9F697-A970-41DD-B7EF-0C17204D57AA@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <69C9F697-A970-41DD-B7EF-0C17204D57AA@apple.com> From: Tal Mizrahi Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 09:11:57 +0300 Message-ID: To: Tommy Pauly Cc: "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity documents X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 06:12:17 -0000 I support the adoption of both drafts (as a co-author). Both drafts have been discussed by the WG, and both have been discussed in the IESG review of the IOAM data draft. Cheers, Tal. On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 7:29 PM Tommy Pauly wrote: > > Hello IPPM, > > As discussed in our meeting last week, we will be starting an adoption call for two IOAM-related documents that have been raised as important dependencies during the IESG review of IOAM-data. > > This email begins a Working Group adoption call for two documents: > > Integrity of In-situ OAM Data Fields > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity/ > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity-03.html > > In-situ OAM Deployment > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment/ > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment-03 > > This call will last until Wednesday, August 18. Please reply to this email with your comments, and if you think these documents should be taken on by IPPM. > > Best, > Tommy & Ian > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From nobody Wed Aug 11 03:08:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBBEB3A0DEE for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2021 03:08:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) 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1789460225475; Wed, 11 Aug 2021 12:33:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mbx12-zne.ulg.ac.be ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mbx12-zne.ulg.ac.be [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id EZPkraf5Ae0W; Wed, 11 Aug 2021 12:33:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mbx12-zne.ulg.ac.be (mbx12-zne.ulg.ac.be [139.165.32.199]) by mbx12-zne.ulg.ac.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04C8660080E86; Wed, 11 Aug 2021 12:33:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 12:33:40 +0200 (CEST) From: Justin Iurman Reply-To: Justin Iurman To: Tommy Pauly Cc: "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Message-ID: <1952984740.34797790.1628678020986.JavaMail.zimbra@uliege.be> In-Reply-To: <69C9F697-A970-41DD-B7EF-0C17204D57AA@apple.com> References: <69C9F697-A970-41DD-B7EF-0C17204D57AA@apple.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [81.240.24.148] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.8.15_GA_4018 (ZimbraWebClient - FF90 (Linux)/8.8.15_GA_4026) Thread-Topic: Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity documents Thread-Index: /T6zH5moZ80uHUugh7Rq7uG9RwYOdg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity documents X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 10:33:54 -0000 I support the adoption of both drafts (mainly as a developer). I do believe that the deployment draft is a good summary and entry point for IOAM while the integrity draft addresses security concerns raised previously. Thanks, Justin > Hello IPPM, > > As discussed in our meeting last week, we will be starting an adoption call for > two IOAM-related documents that have been raised as important dependencies > during the IESG review of IOAM-data. > > This email begins a Working Group adoption call for two documents: > > Integrity of In-situ OAM Data Fields > [ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity/ | > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity/ ] > [ > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity-03.html > | > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity-03.html > ] > > In-situ OAM Deployment > [ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment/ | > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment/ ] > [ > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment-03 > | > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment-03 > ] > > This call will last until Wednesday, August 18 . Please reply to this email with > your comments, and if you think these documents should be taken on by IPPM. > > Best, > Tommy & Ian > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From stephen.youell@jpmorgan.com Wed Aug 11 06:51:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 718083A16FC for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2021 06:51:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Wed, 11 Aug 2021 08:51:27 -0500 Received: from SFAEX025.exchad.jpmchase.net (169.28.200.216) by SFAEX025.exchad.jpmchase.net (169.28.200.216) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.18; Wed, 11 Aug 2021 14:51:25 +0100 Received: from SFAEX025.exchad.jpmchase.net ([169.28.227.250]) by SFAEX025.exchad.jpmchase.net ([169.28.227.250]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.018; Wed, 11 Aug 2021 14:51:25 +0100 From: "Youell, Stephen" To: "ippm@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Need your help and support: FW: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity documents Thread-Index: AdeOGxKQ4aDdkmNlQeKNonuWmG4yRgAnNXgQ Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 13:51:25 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-jpmc-outlooktoolkit: True x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.81.176.240] x-jpmc-sendertrust: JPMC Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_a8d3ca2204b14cd68b4daecabb982621SFAEX025exchadjpmchasen_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-DLP-FWD: Yes X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrKJsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsWyMqBFSff+VeFEg68bNS16HrxjdmD0WLLk J1MAY1QDo01iXl5+SWJJqkJKanGyrZJLZnFyTmJmbmqRgq6CV0FuflF6Yp5ecn6ukkJmiq2S iZJCQU5icmpual6JrVJiQUFqXoqSHZcCBrABKsvMU0jNS85PycxLt1XyDPbXtbAwtdQ1VLIL ycgsVshNLS5OTE9oYclYvXwTa8E/u4orL2IbGE9YdDFyckgImEh861nB2MXIxSEksJxJYnb/ ImYI5xijxL8XjVDOYUaJN83boJxNjBL3dzSwg/SzCZhKzHlxmA3EFhFQlmj59ocRxBYWyJdY v3UpI0S8QOL2ruNANgeQbSRx/VcVSJhFQFVi8csLYK28At4SXw/fYAKxhQRiJM7+nM8MYnMK xEr0LXjJAmIzCohJfD+1BqyGWUBc4taT+UwQLwhILNlznhnCFpV4+fgfK4QtLbH+y0Qo20Bi 69J9LBC2osSiE7cYIWwJiRuPZ7OBnMYMdHLPjySIcwQlTs58wgJxjobEuVtfwEokBPgktrdV T2CUmoXkiFkIzbOQNEOU6Egs2P2JDcLWlli28DUzjH3mwGMmZPEFjOyrGCWLc9PTjPSKy4r0 Sov1sgpykzMSi1P18lJLNjGC0ljkougdjNeW2h5iZOJgPMQowcGsJMK7U04oUYg3JbGyKrUo P76oNCe1+BDjREZgCE9klhJNzgcm0rySeENjMwsDU1NDAwtDIxNaCiuJ8x7TXJUgJJAOTO7Z qakFqUUwRzFxcEo1ME6pVqu57RscdCq3rX3iwcUMnRv1uNn8OOL+TJRVa7B7+e/flQ1pccdd HWqF+cqn8mX2Gk+qFuK7ENT2tOOwjPTJNQ9al0qnM/Z28vqd2Z/07+Sz3k7Di6/9UrdfLnmW v/Vt0BruBle+lHYuzuylHKZv9/Y2LVzJ+exhfO20X0oL9kxb8+tJixJLcUaioRZzUXEiAPw+ 8pjIAwAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Need your help and support: FW: Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity documents X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 13:52:48 -0000 --_000_a8d3ca2204b14cd68b4daecabb982621SFAEX025exchadjpmchasen_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I support the adoption of both drafts - as co-author of a draft on which the= se are referenced (sfc-proof-of-transit -> ippm-ioam-data). Cheers, Steve From: ippm > On Behalf O= f Tommy Pauly Sent: Dienstag, 3. August 2021 18:29 To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) > Subject: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity documents Hello IPPM, As discussed in our meeting last week, we will be starting an adoption call= for two IOAM-related documents that have been raised as important dependenc= ies during the IESG review of IOAM-data. This email begins a Working Group adoption call for two documents: Integrity of In-situ OAM Data Fields https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity/ https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity-03.= html In-situ OAM Deployment https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment= -03 This call will last until Wednesday, August 18. Please reply to this email w= ith your comments, and if you think these documents should be taken on by IP= PM. Best, Tommy & Ian This message is confidential and subject to terms at: https://www.jpmorgan.c= om/emaildisclaimer including on confidential, privileged or legal entity inf= ormation, malicious content and monitoring of electronic messages. If you ar= e not the intended recipient, please delete this message and notify the send= er immediately. Any unauthorized use is strictly prohibited. --_000_a8d3ca2204b14cd68b4daecabb982621SFAEX025exchadjpmchasen_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =

I support the adoption of bot= h drafts – as co-author of a draft on which these are referenced (s= fc-proof-of-transit -> ippm-ioam-data).

 

Cheers,

=

Steve

 

 

From: ippm <ippm-bounce= s@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly
Sent: Dienstag, 3. August 2021 18:29
To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity do= cuments

 

Hello IPPM,=

 

As discussed in our meeting l= ast week, we will be starting an adoption call for two IOAM-related docum= ents that have been raised as important dependencies during the IESG revi= ew of IOAM-data.

 

This email begins a Working G= roup adoption call for two documents:

 

 

In-situ OAM Deployment

 

This call will last until = Wednesday, August 18. Please reply to this email with your comments, = and if you think these documents should be taken on by IPPM.

 

Best,

Tommy & Ian

This message is confidential and subject to terms at: https://= www.jpmorgan.com/emaildisclaimer including on confidential, privileged or= legal entity information, malicious content and monitoring of electronic= messages. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this mess= age and notify the sender immediately. Any unauthorized use is strictly p= rohibited.

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BN1P110MB0939.NAMP110.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: bca93871-13ff-4463-25fd-08d95d0838f5 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Aug 2021 20:40:14.5138 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 95a9dce2-04f2-4043-995d-1ec3861911c6 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN1P110MB0097 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Roman Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-12: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 20:40:24 -0000 SGkgRnJhbmshDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogaWVzZyA8 aWVzZy1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnPiBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgRnJhbmsgQnJvY2tuZXJzIChmYnJv Y2tuZSkNCj4gU2VudDogTW9uZGF5LCBBcHJpbCAyNiwgMjAyMSAxMTozOCBBTQ0KPiBUbzogUm9t 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Dt5wFSFwAWYxCt6gszngDak+ChcgABhwDN5wO1pw8UxwDGjwHzPgDVRtAt7gNYBgCgvABGIwDv9h e00yFqdSo/ZRo4BJVIsC0QUZNBaqRwFdoHo4DyCdYBKxYCM+Txk+A/TzQBmxMA+MkvQyUQVKjxTz 0PRRTxU6oyGdIBNYsyphUFxUXx6lwPWusYsBAQA7 --=====_002_next=====-- --=====_001_next=====-- From nobody Wed Aug 11 19:24:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF49A3A30A1 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2021 19:24:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D8KCwv5hX99O for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2021 19:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A50C3A309D for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2021 19:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fraeml705-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.206]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4GlVql32XYz6GC2s for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 10:24:03 +0800 (CST) Received: from kwepeml100006.china.huawei.com (7.221.188.192) by fraeml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.54) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.2308.8; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 04:24:40 +0200 Received: from kwepeml500004.china.huawei.com (7.221.188.141) by kwepeml100006.china.huawei.com (7.221.188.192) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2176.2; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 10:24:38 +0800 Received: from kwepeml500004.china.huawei.com ([7.221.188.141]) by kwepeml500004.china.huawei.com ([7.221.188.141]) with mapi id 15.01.2176.012; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 10:24:38 +0800 From: Tianran Zhou To: Tommy Pauly , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Thread-Topic: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity documents Thread-Index: AQHXiISxGDsZP5m8vEmP/CCPNImclatvMSsw Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 02:24:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: <69C9F697-A970-41DD-B7EF-0C17204D57AA@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <69C9F697-A970-41DD-B7EF-0C17204D57AA@apple.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.128] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_ed7b298fd91a4607811a8f5f7eab6ef8huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity documents X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 02:24:49 -0000 --_000_ed7b298fd91a4607811a8f5f7eab6ef8huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi WG, I support the adoption of both two drafts. Cheers, Tianran From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly Sent: Wednesday, August 4, 2021 12:29 AM To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Subject: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity documents Hello IPPM, As discussed in our meeting last week, we will be starting an adoption call= for two IOAM-related documents that have been raised as important dependen= cies during the IESG review of IOAM-data. This email begins a Working Group adoption call for two documents: Integrity of In-situ OAM Data Fields https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity/ https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity-03= .html In-situ OAM Deployment https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deploymen= t-03 This call will last until Wednesday, August 18. Please reply to this email = with your comments, and if you think these documents should be taken on by = IPPM. Best, Tommy & Ian --_000_ed7b298fd91a4607811a8f5f7eab6ef8huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi WG,

 

I support the adoption of both two dr= afts.

 

Cheers,

Tianran

 

From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf= .org] On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly
Sent: Wednesday, August 4, 2021 12:29 AM
To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity docu= ments

 

Hello IPPM,

 

As discussed in our meeting last week, we will be st= arting an adoption call for two IOAM-related documents that have been raise= d as important dependencies during the IESG review of IOAM-data.=

 

This email begins a Working Group adoption call for = two documents:

 

 

In-situ OAM Deployment

 

This call will last until Wednesday, August 18. Please reply to this email with your comments, and if you think these do= cuments should be taken on by IPPM.

 

Best,

Tommy & Ian

--_000_ed7b298fd91a4607811a8f5f7eab6ef8huaweicom_-- From nobody Wed Aug 11 20:05:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 498F23A3211 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2021 20:04:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z4MqxFf-ObGV for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2021 20:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxhk.zte.com.cn (mxhk.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 742833A3210 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2021 20:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mse-fl1.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.14.238]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTPS id D319D8BB5407A1515BE7; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 11:04:50 +0800 (CST) Received: from njxapp03.zte.com.cn ([10.41.132.202]) by mse-fl1.zte.com.cn with SMTP id 17C34iKc090720; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 11:04:44 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from xiao.min2@zte.com.cn) Received: from mapi (njxapp04[null]) by mapi (Zmail) with MAPI id mid201; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 11:04:44 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 11:04:44 +0800 (CST) X-Zmail-TransId: 2afc61148fcc5299f142 X-Mailer: Zmail v1.0 Message-ID: <202108121104440429759@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: <69C9F697-A970-41DD-B7EF-0C17204D57AA@apple.com> References: 69C9F697-A970-41DD-B7EF-0C17204D57AA@apple.com Mime-Version: 1.0 From: To: Cc: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====_001_next=====" X-MAIL: mse-fl1.zte.com.cn 17C34iKc090720 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] =?utf-8?q?Adoption_call_for_IOAM_deployment_and_integrity?= =?utf-8?q?_documents?= X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 03:05:00 -0000 --=====_001_next===== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====_003_next=====" --=====_003_next===== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi all, Support WG adoption of these two IOAM documents. For Section 5 of IOAM deployment draft - IOAM Encapsulations, suggest to add BIER(draft-xzlnp-bier-ioam) into the scope. Best Regards, Xiao Min ------------------原始邮件------------------ 发件人：TommyPauly 收件人：IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org); 日 期 ：2021年08月04日 00:29 主 题 ：[ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity documents _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm Hello IPPM, As discussed in our meeting last week, we will be starting an adoption call for two IOAM-related documents that have been raised as important dependencies during the IESG review of IOAM-data. This email begins a Working Group adoption call for two documents: Integrity of In-situ OAM Data Fields https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity/ https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity-03.html In-situ OAM Deployment https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment-03 This call will last until Wednesday, August 18. Please reply to this email with your comments, and if you think these documents should be taken on by IPPM. Best, Tommy & Ian --=====_003_next=====-- --=====_001_next=====-- From nobody Thu Aug 12 01:32:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAD473A3CB5 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 01:32:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IIQDSaraF2k4 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 01:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C99263A3CB3 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 01:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fraeml711-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.206]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4Glg0354Ffz6GBP7 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 16:31:47 +0800 (CST) Received: from dggpeml500021.china.huawei.com (7.185.36.21) by fraeml711-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.60) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2308.8; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 10:32:25 +0200 Received: from dggpeml500024.china.huawei.com (7.185.36.10) by dggpeml500021.china.huawei.com (7.185.36.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2176.2; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 16:32:23 +0800 Received: from dggpeml500024.china.huawei.com ([7.185.36.10]) by dggpeml500024.china.huawei.com ([7.185.36.10]) with mapi id 15.01.2176.012; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 16:32:23 +0800 From: "Wangyali(Yali,Data Communication Standards and Patents Dept)" To: Tommy Pauly , "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" Thread-Topic: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity documents Thread-Index: AQHXiISxgRBCQI+6QEqVpa0aS7dwcatvln9g Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 08:32:23 +0000 Message-ID: <9b20b324fad14aa48edc72e44de4c7d9@huawei.com> References: <69C9F697-A970-41DD-B7EF-0C17204D57AA@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <69C9F697-A970-41DD-B7EF-0C17204D57AA@apple.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.136] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_9b20b324fad14aa48edc72e44de4c7d9huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity documents X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 08:32:39 -0000 --_000_9b20b324fad14aa48edc72e44de4c7d9huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tommy and Ian, Having read these two drafts, which are significant for IOAM implementation= and security. I support the adoption of both two drafts. Best, Yali From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly Sent: Wednesday, August 4, 2021 12:29 AM To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Subject: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity documents Hello IPPM, As discussed in our meeting last week, we will be starting an adoption call= for two IOAM-related documents that have been raised as important dependen= cies during the IESG review of IOAM-data. This email begins a Working Group adoption call for two documents: Integrity of In-situ OAM Data Fields https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity/ https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity-03= .html In-situ OAM Deployment https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deploymen= t-03 This call will last until Wednesday, August 18. Please reply to this email = with your comments, and if you think these documents should be taken on by = IPPM. Best, Tommy & Ian --_000_9b20b324fad14aa48edc72e44de4c7d9huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Tommy and Ian,

 

Having read these two drafts, which a= re significant for IOAM implementation and security. I support the adoption= of both two drafts.

 

Best,

Yali

 

From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf= .org] On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly
Sent: Wednesday, August 4, 2021 12:29 AM
To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity docu= ments

 

Hello IPPM,

 

As discussed in our meeting last week, we will be st= arting an adoption call for two IOAM-related documents that have been raise= d as important dependencies during the IESG review of IOAM-data.=

 

This email begins a Working Group adoption call for = two documents:

 

 

In-situ OAM Deployment

 

This call will last until Wednesday, August 18. Please reply to this email with your comments, and if you think these do= cuments should be taken on by IPPM.

 

Best,

Tommy & Ian

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BN1P110MB0939.NAMP110.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 87846c11-4518-47e2-03ef-08d95d8e81db X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 12 Aug 2021 12:41:29.3929 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 95a9dce2-04f2-4043-995d-1ec3861911c6 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN1P110MB0083 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Roman Danyliw's Discuss on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-12: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 12:41:39 -0000 SGkgRnJhbmshDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogRnJhbmsg QnJvY2tuZXJzIChmYnJvY2tuZSkgPGZicm9ja25lQGNpc2NvLmNvbT4NCj4gU2VudDogVGh1cnNk YXksIEF1Z3VzdCAxMiwgMjAyMSA4OjIyIEFNDQo+IFRvOiBSb21hbiBEYW55bGl3IDxyZGRAY2Vy 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: fZJmTDkz7LbLinZ1lMXfTqIHIzVxIr9PeJg5n/QVNDPfARe2qqDlEjhyDsWmZ54fUumxiHNJHP1YAAhcqM4ALw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY5PR13MB3064 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity documents X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 17:18:02 -0000 --_000_BY3PR13MB4787AE252838F7BAA0A2185E9AF99BY3PR13MB4787namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IPPM WG, After reviewing the drafts, I don't think the integrity draft is ready to b= e adopted. The reasons are as follows: 1. According to the IOAM data draft, IOAM is intended to be used in a li= mited domain managed by a single operator. If so, the integrity is not nece= ssary. I don't think the discussion is consistent between the docs and clea= r. "The current [I-D.ietf-ippm-ioam-data] assumes that IOAM is deployed in limited domains, where an operator has means to select, monitor, and control the access to all the networking devices, making the domain a trusted network. As such, IOAM tracing data is carried in the packets in clear and there are no protections against any node or middlebox tampering with the data. As a consequence, IOAM tracing data collected in an untrusted or semi-trusted environments cannot be trusted for critical operational decisions. Any rogue or unauthorized change to IOAM data fields in a user packet cannot be detected." 1. Is there any real implementation and evaluation on the performance im= pact of the method, especially for the HBH trace option? My experience told= me this is not a simple task. Without solid evidence, we may end up with a= proposal nobody can actually use. The purpose of IOAM is to faithfully ca= pture the user-traffic's forwarding behavior and performance. If added func= tions significantly change the forwarding performance, what's the point to = apply it? For this, I suggest to get expert review from ASIC/NP vendors to= give evaluation on feasibility and performance impact. 2. The draft suggests to sample packet to apply the integrity protection= to mitigate the potential performance impact. This is problematic: (1) dep= ending on the performance difference on the packets with or without protect= ion, significant jitter and out-of-order packet delivery may occur, which i= s detrimental to the user traffic flow (again, we need evaluation on this);= (2) More important, the sampling itself defies the purpose. Antagonists ca= n easily just tamper the unprotected packets. Is it necessary to introduce = a heavy method to just provide inadequate and easy-to-elude protection? 3. If data integrity becomes a concern, why not data confidentiality? To= me, that's more important. At least there are already multiple checksums i= n the packet to make data tampering difficult. But leaking the data is a mo= re serious threat. Of course, if we insist IOAM would be used just in a lim= ited domain, then none is necessary. My point is: either both are needed or= none. 4. I'm not sure if it's already done, I suggest to engage some security = experts to review this draft. Because this is not a light mechanism, it is = very important to make it right before going any further. Best regards, Haoyu From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly Sent: Wednesday, August 4, 2021 12:29 AM To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Subject: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity documents Hello IPPM, As discussed in our meeting last week, we will be starting an adoption call= for two IOAM-related documents that have been raised as important dependen= cies during the IESG review of IOAM-data. This email begins a Working Group adoption call for two documents: Integrity of In-situ OAM Data Fields https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity/ https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity-03= .html In-situ OAM Deployment https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deploymen= t-03 This call will last until Wednesday, August 18. Please reply to this email = with your comments, and if you think these documents should be taken on by = IPPM. Best, Tommy & Ian --_000_BY3PR13MB4787AE252838F7BAA0A2185E9AF99BY3PR13MB4787namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

IPPM WG,

 

After reviewing the drafts, I don’t think the = integrity draft is ready to be adopted. The reasons are as follows:

 

 

  1. According to the IOAM data draft, IOAM is intended to be used in a li= mited domain managed by a single operator. If so, the integrity is not nece= ssary. I don’t think the discussion is consistent between the docs and clear.

 

“The current [I-D.= ietf-ippm-ioam-data] assumes that IOAM is deployed

   in limited domains, where an operator h= as means to select, monitor,

   and control the access to all the netwo= rking devices, making the

   domain a trusted network.  As such= , IOAM tracing data is carried in

   the packets in clear and there are no p= rotections against any node or

   middlebox tampering with the data. = ; As a consequence, IOAM tracing

   data collected in an untrusted or semi-= trusted environments cannot be

   trusted for critical operational decisi= ons.  Any rogue or

   unauthorized change to IOAM data fields= in a user packet cannot be

   detected.”

 

  1. Is there any real implementation and evaluation on the performance im= pact of the method, especially for the HBH trace option? My experience told= me this is not a simple task. Without solid evidence, we may end up with a proposal nobody can actually use.&nbs= p; The purpose of IOAM is to faithfully capture the user-traffic’s fo= rwarding behavior and performance. If added functions significantly change = the forwarding performance, what’s the point to apply it? For this, I suggest to get expert review  from ASIC/NP v= endors to give evaluation on feasibility and performance impact.=
  2. The draft suggests to sample packet to apply the integrity prote= ction to mitigate the potential performance impact. This is problematic: (1= ) depending on the performance difference on the packets with or without protection, significant jitter and out-of-o= rder packet delivery may occur, which is detrimental to the user traffic fl= ow (again, we need evaluation on this); (2) More important, the sampling it= self defies the purpose. Antagonists can easily just tamper the unprotected packets. Is it necessary to introdu= ce a heavy method to just provide inadequate and easy-to-elude protection?<= o:p>
  3. If data integrity becomes a concern, why not data conf= identiality? To me, that’s more important. At least there are already= multiple checksums in the packet to make data tampering difficult. But leaking the data is a more serious threat. Of course, if we= insist IOAM would be used just in a limited domain, then none is necessary= . My point is: either both are needed or none.  
  4. = I’m not sure if it’s already done, I suggest to engage some sec= urity experts to review this draft. Because this is not a light mechanism, = it is very important to make it right before going any further.

 

 

Best regards,

Haoyu

 

 

From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly
Sent: Wednesday, August 4, 2021 12:29 AM=

To: IETF IPPM WG (=
ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.o=
rg>
Subject: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment a=
nd integrity documents
 
Hello IPPM,
 
As discussed in our meeting last week, we will be s=
tarting an adoption call for two IOAM-related documents that have been rais=
ed as important dependencies during the IESG review of IOAM-data.
 
This email begins a Working Group adoption call for=
 two documents:
 
Integrity of In-situ OAM Data Fields
https://d=
atatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity/
htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity-03.ht=
ml
 
In-situ OAM Deployment
https://dat=
atracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment/
http=
s://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment-03=

 
This call will last until Wednesday, August 18. Ple=
ase reply to this email with your comments, and if you think these document=
s should be taken on by IPPM.
 
Best,
Tommy & Ian

 

--_000_BY3PR13MB4787AE252838F7BAA0A2185E9AF99BY3PR13MB4787namp_-- From nobody Thu Aug 12 10:48:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2FC93A4465; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 10:48:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EtjF2qzsuTTA; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 10:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12c.google.com (mail-il1-x12c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C0963A4463; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 10:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id z2so7948070iln.0; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 10:48:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=GN0r60PoESeCVpoj/q9vK5kVAsknwpOml38B6heteKI=; b=YqzCKcSHpMZ85eK1+cbM7kdbap372JQRUn9l5aUudIpv8tvILF0c1dWJ47S6tOnzCk i6D3XKKvUApGpoRs/H02XK6VCJnmDyOWhB5oIB/48UBC8mOpS8fyyJNSEZY6lABpQ8Iz qRirwfJM5/pZRFei5T7FjOByxfKELCApekBzci1cfno7YbUB5dB2dkyUhlCawGiD8afq f1z/ArcpT+DKeFbQ/r6VP6RQ30T2hDhGIHw2A7+A6nIcJBjz6vszrG6PJQ8AvIdRN28F DmqeyrjEEUzXxAtMHM9NuKYvWjXApIyyKeYPYuzvKe4Z0DCkAOTj/gBJGZo8mJ3Hxs3t smXQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GN0r60PoESeCVpoj/q9vK5kVAsknwpOml38B6heteKI=; b=uHzqkClkn4OWl2mAVl5DsFYwjjVCeCv/oLGNX94Y+ZfxOv+avlLsdiOPLVP0+MYZCK CkXIN9D0YtlEF2BSQYMnlz03fUQuL7yuxrmwBD1vG6mFPDHieUzrqlk9VGdbFaPVRAwH ac/S2d6iTie1Xa/OlHaNH3qBLgQc6hPIov/uh32IzzDgNsda15+55caWZSUqgY7yInwB Jlm67JHPy5c2kZcaW3///x+b9w3logHsCUSABJWaVG9VK7ljd9bsCtNB/R2uRsfx2lNA ojOfZAZKT5B82l+9RcVmHg9ldzEyauiqUeMRE4mSraMplUEiU/tsaLW4LsoEHRAZiG5P oqwQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531SzEh6rexZwg61I8A9ZaBvxg9NWy//G7nRTEc6b49/2BydXEh4 m4sEQ+nQxtoklS5t8f4RLmM8WdwqZ2H6p9NzM6o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwCCtJVM56V1+Y6xuqobM/aJq5HJm3JwsQLx5vvFw4V3JoITr3H2cZYFl1y3Z3Y0adL/LL7XKOh9wupeZJqB3I= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:893:: with SMTP id z19mr3797106ils.237.1628790523959; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 10:48:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Martin Duke Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 10:48:33 -0700 Message-ID: To: "MORTON JR., AL" Cc: "ippm@ietf.org" , IPPM Chairs , "ippm-ads@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000098208005c9605840" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Proposed changes to default settings in the Capacity metric load adjustment algorithm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 17:48:51 -0000 --00000000000098208005c9605840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello IPPM, If you have any comments about this change, please send them to this list no later than 24 August. On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 3:01 PM MORTON JR., AL wrote: > IPPM, > > I want to point out that some recent results conducted by others > encouraged us to test some additional values for seq error threshold and a > wider value range of values for consecutive errored status (during feedback > intervals). We discovered that we would like to revise the default values > to make the load adjustment a little less-sensitive to > non-congestion-related loss and protect the fast ramp-up from ending > prematurely. For example, a very short burst of lost packets spanning the > boundary between two feedback intervals is currently sufficient to end fast > ramp-up. > > The current table in 8.1 contains: > +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ > | Parameter | Default | Tested Range | Expected Safe Range | > | | | or values | (not entirely tested, | > | | | | other values NOT | > | | | | RECOMMENDED) | > +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ > ... > +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ > | sequence | 0 | 0, 100 | same as tested | > | error | | | | > | threshold | | | | > +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ > | consecutive | 2 | 2 | Use values >1 to | > | errored | | | avoid misinterpreting | > | status | | | transient loss | > +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ > > > The revised table rows would look like this: > > +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ > | Parameter | Default | Tested Range | Expected Safe Range | > | | | or values | (not entirely tested, | > | | | | other values NOT | > | | | | RECOMMENDED) | > +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ > ... > +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ > | sequence | 10 | 0,1,5,10,100 | same as tested | > | error | | | | > | threshold | | | | > +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ > | consecutive | 3 | 2,3,4,5 | Use values >1 to | > | errored | | | avoid misinterpreting | > | status | | | transient loss | > +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ > > Somehow, persistent non-congestion-related loss had mostly eluded our > previous tests. But our goal has been to provide default values that will > work in automated testing run by anyone in any implementation or > circumstances - not just ~expert users and those who run the udpst utility. > > So we'd like to change default values for: > > seq error threshold from 0 to 10 > consecutive errored status from 2 to 3 > > and update our tested range/values column as well. > > Al > > --00000000000098208005c9605840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGRpdiBkaXI9Imx0ciI+PGRpdj5IZWxsbyBJUFBNLDwvZGl2PjxkaXY+PGJyPjwvZGl2PjxkaXY+ SWYgeW91IGhhdmUgYW55IGNvbW1lbnRzIGFib3V0IHRoaXMgY2hhbmdlLCBwbGVhc2Ugc2VuZCB0 aGVtIHRvIHRoaXMgbGlzdCBubyBsYXRlciB0aGFuIDI0IEF1Z3VzdC48YnI+PC9kaXY+PC9kaXY+ PGJyPjxkaXYgY2xhc3M9ImdtYWlsX3F1b3RlIj48ZGl2IGRpcj0ibHRyIiBjbGFzcz0iZ21haWxf YXR0ciI+T24gVHVlLCBBdWcgMywgMjAyMSBhdCAzOjAxIFBNIE1PUlRPTiBKUi4sIEFMICZsdDs8 YSBocmVmPSJtYWlsdG86YWNtb3J0b25AYXR0LmNvbSI+YWNtb3J0b25AYXR0LmNvbTwvYT4mZ3Q7 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DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nVtZz8AO-9wd for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 11:26:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E5A53A4570 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 11:26:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id y1so9636302iod.10 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 11:26:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8hJSQPvvukjYUSnA1QzR+w0A/LidQoMMuyBhCIRWFuo=; b=abUbym8C73ERHXCEZOACiZhpdDVi1BsSYWSw7ty1J5NPDxIG3kkc3Qt6WjEXTiGvDW qdynUJH3wxEASZvFEEWwbk2JVdgIkLddyUhHVW7T4uV1mbEmfp0VtjG26tk6aona2q6J L6hqFEuWBubrGljrXos1vyrbCto8xb+/jSYc0d9nGsbPz8f0ZN62pU7MchQXZ43IrulZ lfdoaIPbUSm4+831OhQ6kYenkKk3W0wxvVMtaz85ocJZSzsKx7yBQw7GTnbVxhFdMWzo Jm0a+Uci3YDMiBz1qpWaoxPkzREcP7E3P04IDeyy0tX6sNbTymxrYG6a4UWJrsXz8VtT zy4A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8hJSQPvvukjYUSnA1QzR+w0A/LidQoMMuyBhCIRWFuo=; b=KET0svGER8c+2dD9zy3H2MB8DQJQIkWeskLKzAzUeuYVHHyhnZbHTKtldbyaXYt/iC h0nqeNtl5t39GZscJK3GTxPRKRAeu2oDCgskbr4/hILZ7CkV8d1aIPyGKSVMEPbNzBzn 1CcPDYPQDj5VJdY4F0J2vHnUB+93uMGem5mF4g+6ktMupCZfhczEwCMuD6YKPWyTE/G9 Mr0Wdhu0QpmTlhNiJD+i1XoZxdkvvwlcT8J8XoYoROEGAqyONcNUFddJIezIJDIXpFCF IThj6LYcx6c1qFervPr71pqeKzfAoO22btYH3x92Q1p/qnRYwaj0izz7XX618Tke2F7w h3og== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532WxIrCkl9Dp94NCVZyvsCI6LzKALKAW7KLjEtfVvxzMqgrfZAK RJJWOaRCdEuJkWL9UM4YNfiBGSftrn/Smh1GmyDlRQODHRc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzlcEzQ2+zW28YqEcqzfGEg2wwmrMETZd1Qp13peE0PZ1xZGg1tznKoe9OlD/KCmT/wPwKnvfaxJng/peF/XMs= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:2003:: with SMTP id y3mr3961323iod.95.1628792790390; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 11:26:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Martin Duke Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 11:26:19 -0700 Message-ID: To: IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000af1d3905c960df7a" Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 18:26:39 -0000 --000000000000af1d3905c960df7a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello IPPM, (with AD hat on) The IESG is currently considering https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark-08 which is the implementation of RFC 8321 and 8889 techniques in an IPv6 framework. IIUC, this is very much how things are "supposed to work" -- measurement definitions and methodology are done by IPPM, and the protocol-specific instantiations are in the respective working groups. However, there are complications in that 8321 and 8889 are Experimental RFCs, and the ipv6-alt-mark draft is a Proposed Standard. This has resulted in text from 8321/8889 going into ipv6-alt-mark so that it can be elevated to PS. I'm told that, if the status quo holds, other drafts will reference ipv6-alt-mark to avoid a downref. This seems suboptimal. I would prefer that *we take one of the two following actions*: 1) If the WG has consensus that we are comfortable that there is enough experience with 8321 and/or 8889 to elevate them to PS, I can initiate a document action to change their status. 2) If there is no such consensus, ipv6-alt-mark should be Experimental. In either case, the draft can probably lose some of the duplicate text. Logically, there is a third option -- that the bits of the RFCs copied in the draft are mature enough to be a standard, but that the others aren't. Though I'm not an expert, I doubt this is the case. But if people believe it to be true, we'll have to come up with new options. I would be grateful for the working group's thoughts about these documents and the ideas therein. Is it reasonable for people to read and reflect on this by 26 August (2 weeks from today?) Thanks, Martin --000000000000af1d3905c960df7a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello IPPM,

(with AD hat on)=

The IESG is currently considering
<= a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-ma= rk-08">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark-= 08
which is the implementation of RFC 8321 and 8889 techniques in an IPv6 framew= ork. IIUC, this is very much how things are "supposed to work" --= measurement definitions and methodology are done by IPPM, and the protocol= -specific instantiations are in the respective working groups.
However, there are complications in that 8321 and 8889 are Exp= erimental RFCs, and the ipv6-alt-mark draft is a Proposed Standard. This ha= s resulted in text from 8321/8889 going into ipv6-alt-mark so that it can b= e elevated to PS. I'm told that, if the status quo holds, other drafts = will reference ipv6-alt-mark to avoid a downref. This seems suboptimal.

I would prefer that we take one of the two followi= ng actions:
1) If the WG has consensus that we are comfortabl= e that there is enough experience with 8321 and/or 8889 to elevate them to = PS, I can initiate a document action to change their status.

=
2) If there is no such consensus, ipv6-alt-mark should be Experi= mental.

In either case, the draft can probably los= e some of the duplicate text.

Logically, there is = a third option -- that the bits of the RFCs copied in the draft are mature = enough to be a standard, but that the others aren't. Though I'm not= an expert, I doubt this is the case. But if people believe it to be true, = we'll have to come up with new options.

I woul= d be grateful for the working group's thoughts about these documents an= d the ideas therein. Is it reasonable for people to read and reflect on thi= s by 26 August (2 weeks from today?)

Thanks,
Martin
--000000000000af1d3905c960df7a-- From nobody Thu Aug 12 12:04:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4A083A467E for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 12:04:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=broadcom.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B5GeAdY7dtj9 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 12:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x534.google.com (mail-ed1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83ADF3A467D for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 12:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x534.google.com with SMTP id i6so11309932edu.1 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 12:04:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=from:to:subject:thread-topic:thread-index:date:message-id :references:in-reply-to:accept-language:mime-version; bh=w5/Enh2+zyzUvjbxwVoCHrNlgTHq2r7hm/bVJf2EHKo=; b=B/VDSxPe4uW2G5fPYx01M/NE+3SqD7CBZqNmaPULNAzfCOKmPnboNIDsyodRxWF4I8 asLNdezBH0xtdh8ieWf9nUfFFNrQ3wci+nwszicw6A4zTL6M3/ZUi8lSLu6Xl6nsp6E/ fQcFI6hA6pqS0Oru6/HR1SIXgZ8vsT4xZ3oWg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:thread-topic:thread-index:date :message-id:references:in-reply-to:accept-language:mime-version; bh=w5/Enh2+zyzUvjbxwVoCHrNlgTHq2r7hm/bVJf2EHKo=; b=t/zNx95WwwCsQ/k9jBhQV+CRY0iwZm/InOkBKefLHX0IMjRStsrush3jXX+lqUZFW1 /oE4jbLVtlP6G64pnn13WuuT0vzkO/t1P1UqBB7/n9oHHAShAlA4y0sDgEA2JDBv9IaI 8zkgnTiJuD6OlF35iZVLY+SqwDLnygoIjyOpdlLEZXVDaNyTEcBrQcGG/607S22yOoy0 sJpOpU8vAgNlalw6MrnfeuDpVwUG0HaluWrKWLwAoqGGj6RagO2Sa5556y0IZzIgeXrU /qE9vQWdPmf/DY4Bb0NiX9X8tsO6iKl4dMT/smYz3hvncTqRD6DUSrKbzimN6zyeY9uM E8Wg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532ZzXyE5949JpB2ZjbYtxH4n1Ujw9mCgpxHvYq+iQonTr782W0n 0P3yqq3va5Y6mC1SgZRmJLue4en9hTUW0ZKzHvPEHBDXoOwpsHj1TZz4pAXj6ufGWcHkSn0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw7JwNEbPxLRr972Ql4UU6HWYBqGttr+n9SLbaTBPAZweSPihrACECfCuzDZ8k1BMdULXcxhQ== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:c606:: with SMTP id h6mr7320028edq.363.1628795062898; Thu, 12 Aug 2021 12:04:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DM6PR15MB3322.namprd15.prod.outlook.com ([2603:1036:301:214f::5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g23sm1136591ejm.26.2021.08.12.12.04.20 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 12 Aug 2021 12:04:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Jai Kumar To: Martin Duke , IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 Thread-Index: AXdxMXlWeVzV7Oltx98bMXRvrakF0MA89sEw X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 19:04:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-Exchange-Organization-SCL: -1 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-MS-Exchange-Organization-RecordReviewCfmType: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="00000000000026c8e305c96167e8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2021 19:04:31 -0000 --00000000000026c8e305c96167e8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DM6PR15MB332262CF3C11CE680C81810FF6F99DM6PR15MB3322namp_" --_000_DM6PR15MB332262CF3C11CE680C81810FF6F99DM6PR15MB3322namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Quick feedback on 8321. 8321 is deployed in 5G and SP deployment and has support from Broadcom as s= ilicon vendor. Let me know if any supporting document (non-confidential) with deployment d= etails are needed to elevate the draft status to PS. Note: I am not on the author list of the draft. -Jai From: ippm on behalf of Martin Duke Date: Thursday, August 12, 2021 at 11:26 AM To: IETF IPPM WG Subject: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 Hello IPPM, (with AD hat on) The IESG is currently considering https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark-08 which is the implementation of RFC 8321 and 8889 techniques = in an IPv6 framework. IIUC, this is very much how things are "supposed to w= ork" -- measurement definitions and methodology are done by IPPM, and the p= rotocol-specific instantiations are in the respective working groups. However, there are complications in that 8321 and 8889 are Experimental RFC= s, and the ipv6-alt-mark draft is a Proposed Standard. This has resulted in= text from 8321/8889 going into ipv6-alt-mark so that it can be elevated to= PS. I'm told that, if the status quo holds, other drafts will reference ip= v6-alt-mark to avoid a downref. This seems suboptimal. I would prefer that we take one of the two following actions: 1) If the WG has consensus that we are comfortable that there is enough exp= erience with 8321 and/or 8889 to elevate them to PS, I can initiate a docum= ent action to change their status. 2) If there is no such consensus, ipv6-alt-mark should be Experimental. In either case, the draft can probably lose some of the duplicate text. Logically, there is a third option -- that the bits of the RFCs copied in t= he draft are mature enough to be a standard, but that the others aren't. Th= ough I'm not an expert, I doubt this is the case. But if people believe it = to be true, we'll have to come up with new options. I would be grateful for the working group's thoughts about these documents = and the ideas therein. Is it reasonable for people to read and reflect on t= his by 26 August (2 weeks from today?) Thanks, Martin --=20 This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted= =20 with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for=20 the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain= =20 information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy= =20 laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are=20 not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the=20 e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,=20 copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of= =20 this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error,= =20 please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and= =20 destroy any printed copy of it. --_000_DM6PR15MB332262CF3C11CE680C81810FF6F99DM6PR15MB3322namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Quick feedback on 8321.

8321 is deployed in 5G and SP deployment and has sup= port from Broadcom as silicon vendor.

 

Let me know if any supporting document (non-confiden= tial) with deployment details are needed to elevate the draft status to PS.=

 

Note: I am not on the author list of the draft.=

 

-Jai

 

 

From= : ippm <ippm-bou= nces@ietf.org> on behalf of Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com><= br> Date: Thursday, August 12, 2021 at 11:26 AM
To: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889

 

Hello IPPM,

 

(with AD hat on)

 

The IESG is currently considering

 

However, there are complications in that 8321 and 88= 89 are Experimental RFCs, and the ipv6-alt-mark draft is a Proposed Standar= d. This has resulted in text from 8321/8889 going into ipv6-alt-mark so tha= t it can be elevated to PS. I'm told that, if the status quo holds, other drafts will reference ipv6-alt-mark t= o avoid a downref. This seems suboptimal.

 

I would prefer that we take one of the two follow= ing actions:

1) If the WG has consensus that we are comfortable t= hat there is enough experience with 8321 and/or 8889 to elevate them to PS,= I can initiate a document action to change their status.

 

2) If there is no such consensus, ipv6-alt-mark shou= ld be Experimental.

 

In either case, the draft can probably lose some of = the duplicate text.

 

Logically, there is a third option -- that the bits = of the RFCs copied in the draft are mature enough to be a standard, but tha= t the others aren't. Though I'm not an expert, I doubt this is the case. Bu= t if people believe it to be true, we'll have to come up with new options.

 

I would be grateful for the working group's thoughts= about these documents and the ideas therein. Is it reasonable for people t= o read and reflect on this by 26 August (2 weeks from today?)

 

Thanks,

Martin


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Email with ESMTPS id 44009694D9239F834137; Fri, 13 Aug 2021 11:26:13 +0800 (CST) Received: from njxapp01.zte.com.cn ([10.41.132.200]) by mse-fl2.zte.com.cn with SMTP id 17D3Q3wP063063; Fri, 13 Aug 2021 11:26:03 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from xiao.min2@zte.com.cn) Received: from mapi (njxapp04[null]) by mapi (Zmail) with MAPI id mid201; Fri, 13 Aug 2021 11:26:03 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 11:26:03 +0800 (CST) X-Zmail-TransId: 2afc6115e64b84c11cfa X-Mailer: Zmail v1.0 Message-ID: <202108131126032940748@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: References: CAM4esxQHOV2uWJGeqhSyWAbgr36n71S8Ss1bc-1qFiFex9Wu3w@mail.gmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 From: To: Cc: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====_001_next=====" X-MAIL: mse-fl2.zte.com.cn 17D3Q3wP063063 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] =?utf-8?q?RFC_8321_and_8889?= X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 03:26:25 -0000 --=====_001_next===== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====_003_next=====" --=====_003_next===== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Martin, AFAIK, RFC 8321 has been implemented (by at least three vendors) and deployed (by at least one operator) in MPLS mobile backhaul networks. Although not all measuring options described in RFC 8321 are implemented, e.g. only fixed-timer block and double-marking methodology are used, I believe it's still reasonable to elevate it to PS. As to RFC 8889, I have no idea on its maturity level, so I'll let others to comment. With that said, I tend to support that we take action 1) and elevate RFC 8321 to PS. Best Regards, Xiao Min ------------------原始邮件------------------ 发件人：MartinDuke 收件人：IETF IPPM WG; 日 期 ：2021年08月13日 02:27 主 题 ：[ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm Hello IPPM, (with AD hat on) The IESG is currently considering https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark-08 which is the implementation of RFC 8321 and 8889 techniques in an IPv6 framework. IIUC, this is very much how things are "supposed to work" -- measurement definitions and methodology are done by IPPM, and the protocol-specific instantiations are in the respective working groups. However, there are complications in that 8321 and 8889 are Experimental RFCs, and the ipv6-alt-mark draft is a Proposed Standard. This has resulted in text from 8321/8889 going into ipv6-alt-mark so that it can be elevated to PS. I'm told that, if the status quo holds, other drafts will reference ipv6-alt-mark to avoid a downref. This seems suboptimal. I would prefer that we take one of the two following actions: 1) If the WG has consensus that we are comfortable that there is enough experience with 8321 and/or 8889 to elevate them to PS, I can initiate a document action to change their status. 2) If there is no such consensus, ipv6-alt-mark should be Experimental. In either case, the draft can probably lose some of the duplicate text. Logically, there is a third option -- that the bits of the RFCs copied in the draft are mature enough to be a standard, but that the others aren't. Though I'm not an expert, I doubt this is the case. But if people believe it to be true, we'll have to come up with new options. I would be grateful for the working group's thoughts about these documents and the ideas therein. Is it reasonable for people to read and reflect on this by 26 August (2 weeks from today?) Thanks, Martin --=====_003_next=====-- --=====_001_next=====-- From nobody Fri Aug 13 02:31:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC1A43A0DF3 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2021 02:31:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E27sr4WdBU3H for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2021 02:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E87093A0DFB for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2021 02:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fraeml708-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.200]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4GmJFJ4qtNz6GBQr; Fri, 13 Aug 2021 17:30:28 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.33) by fraeml708-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2308.8; Fri, 13 Aug 2021 11:31:09 +0200 Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) by fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) with mapi id 15.01.2308.008; Fri, 13 Aug 2021 11:31:09 +0200 From: Giuseppe Fioccola To: Martin Duke , IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 Thread-Index: AQHXj6gWPejcFtn9s0ywj57o9VM7G6txKo9A Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 09:31:09 +0000 Message-ID: <6ae14cd1c93a400990abe1c95876fe93@huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.95.194] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6ae14cd1c93a400990abe1c95876fe93huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 09:31:21 -0000 --_000_6ae14cd1c93a400990abe1c95876fe93huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgTWFydGluLA0KSSBjYW4gc3VyZWx5IHByb3ZpZGUgZGV0YWlsZWQgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gYWJv dXQgdHdvIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9uczogb25lIGZyb20gSHVhd2VpIGFuZCB0aGUgb3RoZXIgZnJv bSBUZWxlY29tIEl0YWxpYS4NCkZvciB0aGlzIHJlYXNvbiwgSSB3b3VsZCBzdWdnZXN0IHRvIGNv 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cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.16, xbe-rcd-001.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-9.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity documents X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 16:12:32 -0000 I have read rev 03 of both documents, and I feel these works are worth=0A= adopting. I do have a comment about the integrity doc. I'm glad to see=0A= this work come forward as I agree with the previous reviews that=0A= ensuring integrity (arguably by default) is valuable. What I felt might=0A= be under-stating here is the "general" statement in Section 3. You=0A= mention that the false illusion could prevent detection of actual=0A= problems or cause false positives that require more processing.=0A= =0A= But for POT, I wonder if that's saying enough. The POT use case, in=0A= particular, while you can say that a general DoS could be the outcome of=0A= IOAM manipulation, I thought saying something to the effect of=0A= circumventing security services in an SFC by "lying" about transit is=0A= more than just preventing spotting actual problems or causing additional=0A= processing. I think the POT use case could use more fleshing out here=0A= in terms of the threat model. Though that can certainly happen after=0A= adoption.=0A= =0A= Joe=0A= From nobody Fri Aug 13 09:55:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04D533A18E7 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2021 09:55:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.552 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.552 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iSONgkwsVGTB for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2021 09:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp24.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp24.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E0413A1891 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2021 09:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp24.rno.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp24.rno.apple.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 17DGq66d024144 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2021 09:55:07 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=date : from : to : cc : subject : message-id : mime-version : content-type; s=20180706; bh=aCBXMrK6c6ERCm+ZdYXIiB8eKDxZdBX20sf1OJPOVQo=; b=c2hScF/aM07toCMgtYUcUtHwe2rKQxRCWBM8xP+T4DXQ39TlO0xGN+N8+P67zFiAIAgh bDbvDJiJhLDKSPYfsezrL6NX28DQZpZ0gwE543UAvltml1F/Y+SXK8h9Tz5Ewx772Q0N eYzGC2albq4PisdbgHF/brikX0ga5SlgIu8Fde0e1rCttTH5/OYuhryMi2pEsMQxYp11 K6jbDvNKkcoJaOVdr4uEbyL+Z42yf8HVwba7TKvPNF2ha+W0w7J1SZxg7y2usBnhUwzB zEH59LK9E1YcLmd7ECKfiwGx2kvaAn8AqegrU+YcAEyLdjQjFvS/y9W83stJHZRWyr/X Gw== Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp04.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp04.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.152]) by rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp24.rno.apple.com with ESMTP id 3acn9624s0-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2021 09:55:06 -0700 Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.15]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp04.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.9.20210415 64bit (built Apr 15 2021)) with ESMTPS id <0QXS0072PEZUKN00@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp04.rno.apple.com> for ippm@ietf.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2021 09:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from process_milters-daemon.rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.9.20210415 64bit (built Apr 15 2021)) id <0QXS00C00ETJYZ00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Fri, 13 Aug 2021 09:55:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: 60eba1048664b2c2d1e823e0b55422b4 X-Va-E-CD: 54830f70b70ff9032877f95123cc0fae X-Va-R-CD: 80bb087c437298cfd3e21c48ddd85eda X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: dc9c2d51-fc77-4bb0-ab5d-055029076ba9 X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: 60eba1048664b2c2d1e823e0b55422b4 X-V-E-CD: 54830f70b70ff9032877f95123cc0fae X-V-R-CD: 80bb087c437298cfd3e21c48ddd85eda X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: 8ef3a2bd-56de-48ef-ad72-53852be8ff9d X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-08-13_06:2021-08-13, 2021-08-13 signatures=0 Received: from localhost ([17.192.155.152]) by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.9.20210415 64bit (built Apr 15 2021)) with ESMTPSA id <0QXS00PAAEZU1B10@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Fri, 13 Aug 2021 09:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 09:55:06 -0700 From: Christoph Paasch To: ippm@ietf.org Cc: Randall Meyer , Omer Shapira , Stuart Cheshire Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-08-13_06:2021-08-13, 2021-08-13 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-00.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 16:55:12 -0000 Hello IPPM-group, we just submitted the below IETF-draft, specifying a methodology and metric to measure "Responsiveness under working conditions" (aka., bufferbloat) from an end-users' perspective. Feedback is very welcome! Regards, Christoph ----- Forwarded message from internet-drafts@ietf.org ----- From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Christoph Paasch , Omer Shapira , Randall Meyer , Stuart Cheshire Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 09:43:40 -0700 Subject: New Version Notification for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-00.txt A new version of I-D, draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Christoph Paasch and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness Revision: 00 Title: Responsiveness under Working Conditions Document date: 2021-08-13 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 12 URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/ Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness Abstract: Bufferbloat has been a long-standing problem on the Internet with more than a decade of work on standardizing technical solutions, implementations and testing. However, to this date, bufferbloat is still a very common problem for the end-users. Everyone "knows" that it is "normal" for a video conference to have problems when somebody else on the same home-network is watching a 4K movie. The reason for this problem is not the lack of technical solutions, but rather a lack of awareness of the problem-space, and a lack of tooling to accurately measure the problem. We believe that exposing the problem of bufferbloat to the end-user by measuring the end- users' experience at a high level will help to create the necessary awareness. This document is a first attempt at specifying a measurement methodology to evaluate bufferbloat the way common users are experiencing it today, using today's most frequently used protocols and mechanisms to accurately measure the user-experience. We also provide a way to express the bufferbloat as a measure of "Round-trips per minute" (RPM) to have a more intuitive way for the users to understand the notion of bufferbloat. 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charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Martin. Telecom Italia is using Alternate Marking defined n RFC8321 and RFC8889 to m= onitor LTE backhauling as also described in https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/8782889 So I am in favor to elevate these RFCs to PS. Thanks. Mauro -------- Messaggio originale -------- Da: Martin Duke Data: 12/08/21 20:27 (GMT+01:00) A: IETF IPPM WG Oggetto: [EXT] [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 Hello IPPM, (with AD hat on) The IESG is currently considering https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark-08 which is the implementation of RFC 8321 and 8889 techniques in= an IPv6 framework. IIUC, this is very much how things are "supposed to work= " -- measurement definitions and methodology are done by IPPM, and the proto= col-specific instantiations are in the respective working groups. However, there are complications in that 8321 and 8889 are Experimental RFCs= , and the ipv6-alt-mark draft is a Proposed Standard. This has resulted in t= ext from 8321/8889 going into ipv6-alt-mark so that it can be elevated to PS= . I'm told that, if the status quo holds, other drafts will reference ipv6-a= lt-mark to avoid a downref. This seems suboptimal. I would prefer that we take one of the two following actions: 1) If the WG has consensus that we are comfortable that there is enough expe= rience with 8321 and/or 8889 to elevate them to PS, I can initiate a documen= t action to change their status. 2) If there is no such consensus, ipv6-alt-mark should be Experimental. In either case, the draft can probably lose some of the duplicate text. Logically, there is a third option -- that the bits of the RFCs copied in th= e draft are mature enough to be a standard, but that the others aren't. Thou= gh I'm not an expert, I doubt this is the case. But if people believe it to= be true, we'll have to come up with new options. I would be grateful for the working group's thoughts about these documents a= nd the ideas therein. Is it reasonable for people to read and reflect on thi= s by 26 August (2 weeks from today?) Thanks, Martin Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle pers= one indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dalla= conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abbia= te ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di darne= immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione, G= razie. This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged i= nformation intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, print= ing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended reci= pient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sender= by return e-mail, Thanks. Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =E8 necessario. --_000_DBAPR07MB6775931FB842DD0701BD424CE9FB9DBAPR07MB6775eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Martin.
Telecom Italia is using Alternate Marking defined n RFC832= 1 and RFC8889 to monitor LTE backhauling as also described in
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/8782889
So I am in favor to elevate these RFCs to PS.
Thanks.
Mauro




-------- Messaggio originale --------
Da: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
Data: 12/08/21 20:27 (GMT+01:00)
A: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Oggetto: [EXT] [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889

Hello IPPM,

(with AD hat on)

The IESG is currently considering

However, there are complications in that 8321 and 8889 are Experimental= RFCs, and the ipv6-alt-mark draft is a Proposed Standard. This has resulted= in text from 8321/8889 going into ipv6-alt-mark so that it can be elevated= to PS. I'm told that, if the status quo holds, other drafts will reference ipv6-alt-mark to avoid a down= ref. This seems suboptimal.

I would prefer that we take one of the two following actions:
1) If the WG has consensus that we are comfortable that there is enough= experience with 8321 and/or 8889 to elevate them to PS, I can initiate a do= cument action to change their status.

2) If there is no such consensus, ipv6-alt-mark should be Experimental.=

In either case, the draft can probably lose some of the duplicate text.=

Logically, there is a third option -- that the bits of the RFCs copied= in the draft are mature enough to be a standard, but that the others aren't= . Though I'm not an expert, I doubt this is the case. But if people believe= it to be true, we'll have to come up with new options.

I would be grateful for the working group's thoughts about these docume= nts and the ideas therein. Is it reasonable for people to read and reflect o= n this by 26 August (2 weeks from today?)

Thanks,
Martin

Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle= persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante d= alla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora a= bbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di da= rne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione= , Grazie.

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Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non è necessa= rio.
--_000_DBAPR07MB6775931FB842DD0701BD424CE9FB9DBAPR07MB6775eurp_-- From nobody Sun Aug 15 06:39:45 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C9B83A1629; Sun, 15 Aug 2021 06:39:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qGr4k_0-H2GT; Sun, 15 Aug 2021 06:39:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw1.uni-kl.de (mailgw1.uni-kl.de [IPv6:2001:638:208:120::220]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9E633A1626; Sun, 15 Aug 2021 06:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sushi.unix-ag.uni-kl.de (sushi.unix-ag.uni-kl.de [IPv6:2001:638:208:ef34:0:ff:fe00:65]) by mailgw1.uni-kl.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id 17FDdNcC089000 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 15 Aug 2021 15:39:23 +0200 Received: from sushi.unix-ag.uni-kl.de (ip6-localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sushi.unix-ag.uni-kl.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4+deb7u1) with ESMTP id 17FDdMA9018804 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 15 Aug 2021 15:39:22 +0200 Received: (from auerswal@localhost) by sushi.unix-ag.uni-kl.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id 17FDdMxW018803; Sun, 15 Aug 2021 15:39:22 +0200 Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 15:39:22 +0200 From: Erik Auerswald To: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net Cc: draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org Message-ID: <20210815133922.GA18118@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="opJtzjQTFsWo+cga" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Author: Erik Auerswald User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Bloat] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-00.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 13:39:43 -0000 --opJtzjQTFsWo+cga Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Hi, I'd like to thank you for working on a nice I-D describing an interesting and IMHO useful network measurement metric. Since feedback was asked for, I'd like to try and provide constructive feedback. In general, I like the idea of "Round-trips per Minute" (RPM) as a metric used to characterize (one aspect of) a network. I do think that introducing this would improve the status quo. Since this RPM definition comprises a specific way of adding load to the network and measuring a complex metric, I think it is useful to "standardize" it. I do not think RPM can replace all other metrics. This is, in a way, mentioned in the introduction, where it is suggested to add RPM to existing measurement platforms. As such I just want to point this out more explicitely, but do not intend to diminish the RPM idea by this. In short, I'd say it's complicated. Bandwidth matters for bulk data transfer, e.g., downloading a huge update required for playing a multiplayer game online. Minimum latency matters for the feasibility of interactive applications, e.g., controlling a toy car in your room vs. a robotic arm on the ISS from Earth vs. orbital insertion around Mars from Earth. For a more mundane use case consider a voice conference. (A good decade ago I experienced a voice conferencing system running over IP that introduced over one second of (minimum) latency and therefore was awkward to use.) Expressing 'bufferbloat as a measure of "Round-trips per Minute" (RPM)' exhibits (at least) two problems: 1. A high RPM value is associated with little bufferbloat problems. 2. A low RPM value may be caused by high minimum delay instead of bufferbloat. I think that RPM (i.e., under working conditions) measures a network's usefulness for interactive applications, but not necessarily bufferbloat. I do think that RPM is in itself more generally useful than minimum latency or bandwidth. A combination of low minimum latency with low RPM value strongly hints at bufferbloat. Other combinations are less easily characterized. Bufferbloat can still lie in hiding, e.g., when a link with bufferbloat is not yet the bottleneck, or if the communications end-points are not yet able to saturate the network inbetween. Thus high bandwidth can result in high RPM values despite (hidden) bufferbloat. The "Measuring is Hard" section mentions additional complications. All in all, I do think that "measuring bufferbloat" and "measuring RPM" should not be used synonymously. The I-D title clearly shows this: RPM is measuring "Responsiveness under Working Conditions" which may be affected by bufferbloat, among other potential factors, but is not in itself bufferbloat. Under the assumption that only a single value (performance score) is considered, I do think that RPM is more generally useful than bandwidth or idle latency. On a meta-level, I think that the word "bufferbloat" is not used according to a single self-consistent definition in the I-D. Additionally, I think that the I-D should reference DNS, HTTP/2, and TLS 1.3, since these protocols are required for implementing the RPM measurement. The same for JSON, I think. Possibly URL. Using "rpm.example" instead of "example.apple.com" would result in shorter lines for the example JSON. "host123.cdn.example" instead of "hostname123.cdnprovider.com" might be a more appropriate example DNS name. Adding an informative reference to RFC 2606 / BCP 32 might raise awareness of the existence of a BCP on example DNS names. Please find both a unified diff against the text rendering of the I-D, and a word diff produced from the unified diff, attached to this email in order to suggest editorial changes that are intended to improve the reading experience. They are intended for reading and (possibly partial) manual application, since the text rendering of an I-D is usually not the preferred form of editing it. Thanks, Erik -- Always use the right tool for the job. -- Rob Pike On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 02:41:05PM -0700, Christoph Paasch via Bloat wrote: > I already posted this to the RPM-list, but the audience here on bloat should > be interested as well. > > > This is the specification of Apple's responsiveness/RPM test. We believe that it > would be good for the bufferbloat-effort to have a specification of how to > quantify the extend of bufferbloat from a user's perspective. Our > Internet-draft is a first step in that direction and we hope that it will > kick off some collaboration. > > > Feedback is very welcome! > > > Cheers, > Christoph > > > ----- Forwarded message from internet-drafts@ietf.org ----- > > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: Christoph Paasch , Omer Shapira , Randall Meyer , Stuart Cheshire > > Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 09:43:40 -0700 > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-00.txt > > > A new version of I-D, draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Christoph Paasch and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness > Revision: 00 > Title: Responsiveness under Working Conditions > Document date: 2021-08-13 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 12 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-00.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/ > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness > > > Abstract: > Bufferbloat has been a long-standing problem on the Internet with > more than a decade of work on standardizing technical solutions, > implementations and testing. However, to this date, bufferbloat is > still a very common problem for the end-users. Everyone "knows" that > it is "normal" for a video conference to have problems when somebody > else on the same home-network is watching a 4K movie. > > The reason for this problem is not the lack of technical solutions, > but rather a lack of awareness of the problem-space, and a lack of > tooling to accurately measure the problem. We believe that exposing > the problem of bufferbloat to the end-user by measuring the end- > users' experience at a high level will help to create the necessary > awareness. > > This document is a first attempt at specifying a measurement > methodology to evaluate bufferbloat the way common users are > experiencing it today, using today's most frequently used protocols > and mechanisms to accurately measure the user-experience. We also > provide a way to express the bufferbloat as a measure of "Round-trips > per minute" (RPM) to have a more intuitive way for the users to > understand the notion of bufferbloat. > > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > _______________________________________________ > Bloat mailing list > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat --opJtzjQTFsWo+cga Content-Type: text/x-diff; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="editorial-suggestions-2021-08-15-unified.diff" --- draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-00.txt 2021-08-15 12:01:01.213813125 +0200 +++ draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-00-ea.txt 2021-08-15 15:08:08.013416074 +0200 @@ -17,7 +17,7 @@ Bufferbloat has been a long-standing problem on the Internet with more than a decade of work on standardizing technical solutions, - implementations and testing. However, to this date, bufferbloat is + implementations, and testing. However, to this date, bufferbloat is still a very common problem for the end-users. Everyone "knows" that it is "normal" for a video conference to have problems when somebody else on the same home-network is watching a 4K movie. @@ -33,8 +33,8 @@ methodology to evaluate bufferbloat the way common users are experiencing it today, using today's most frequently used protocols and mechanisms to accurately measure the user-experience. We also - provide a way to express the bufferbloat as a measure of "Round-trips - per minute" (RPM) to have a more intuitive way for the users to + provide a way to express bufferbloat as a measure of "Round-trips + per Minute" (RPM) to have a more intuitive way for the users to understand the notion of bufferbloat. Status of This Memo @@ -81,14 +81,14 @@ Table of Contents 1. Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 - 2. Measuring is hard . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 + 2. Measuring is Hard . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 3. Goals . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 4. Measuring Responsiveness . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4.1. Working Conditions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4.1.1. Parallel vs Sequential Uplink and Downlink . . . . . 6 - 4.1.2. From single-flow to multi-flow . . . . . . . . . . . 7 - 4.1.3. Reaching saturation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 - 4.1.4. Final algorithm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 + 4.1.2. From Single-flow to Multi-flow . . . . . . . . . . . 7 + 4.1.3. Reaching Saturation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 + 4.1.4. Final Algorithm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4.2. Measuring Responsiveness . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 4.2.1. Aggregating Round-trips per Minute . . . . . . . . . 9 4.2.2. Statistical Confidence . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 @@ -103,8 +103,8 @@ For many years, bufferbloat has been known as an unfortunately common issue in todays networks [Bufferbloat]. Solutions like FQ-codel - [RFC8289] or PIE [RFC8033] have been standardized and are to some - extend widely implemented. Nevertheless, users still suffer from + [RFC8290] or PIE [RFC8033] have been standardized and are to some + extent widely implemented. Nevertheless, users still suffer from bufferbloat. @@ -129,7 +129,7 @@ bufferbloat problem. We believe that it is necessary to create a standardized way for - measuring the extend of bufferbloat in a network and express it to + measuring the extent of bufferbloat in a network and express it to the user in a user-friendly way. This should help existing measurement tools to add a bufferbloat measurement to their set of metrics. It will also allow to raise the awareness to the problem @@ -144,10 +144,10 @@ classification for those protocols is very common. It is thus very important to use those protocols for the measurements to avoid focusing on use-cases that are not actually affecting the end-user. - Finally, we propose to use "round-trips per minute" as a metric to - express the extend of bufferbloat. + Finally, we propose to use "Round-trips per Minute" as a metric to + express the extent of bufferbloat. -2. Measuring is hard +2. Measuring is Hard There are several challenges around measuring bufferbloat accurately on the Internet. These challenges are due to different factors. @@ -155,7 +155,7 @@ problem space, and the reproducibility of the measurement. It is well-known that transparent TCP proxies are widely deployed on - port 443 and/or port 80, while less common on other ports. Thus, + port 443 and/or port 80, while less commonly on other ports. Thus, choice of the port-number to measure bufferbloat has a significant influence on the result. Other factors are the protocols being used. TCP and UDP traffic may take a largely different path on the Internet @@ -186,17 +186,17 @@ measurement. It seems that it's best to avoid extending the duration of the test beyond what's needed. - The problem space around the bufferbloat is huge. Traditionally, one + The problem space around bufferbloat is huge. Traditionally, one thinks of bufferbloat happening on the routers and switches of the Internet. Thus, simply measuring bufferbloat at the transport layer would be sufficient. However, the networking stacks of the clients and servers can also experience huge amounts of bufferbloat. Data sitting in TCP sockets or waiting in the application to be scheduled for sending causes artificial latency, which affects user-experience - the same way the "traditional" bufferbloat does. + the same way "traditional" bufferbloat does. Finally, measuring bufferbloat requires us to fill the buffers of the - bottleneck and when buffer occupancy is at its peak, the latency + bottleneck, and when buffer occupancy is at its peak, the latency measurement needs to be done. Achieving this in a reliable and reproducible way is not easy. First, one needs to ensure that buffers are actually full for a sustained period of time to allow for @@ -250,15 +250,15 @@ bufferbloat. 4. Finally, in order for this measurement to be user-friendly to a - wide audience it is important that such a measurement finishes - within a short time-frame and short being anything below 20 + wide audience, it is important that such a measurement finishes + within a short time-frame with short being anything below 20 seconds. 4. Measuring Responsiveness The ability to reliably measure the responsiveness under typical working conditions is predicated by the ability to reliably put the - network in a state representative of the said conditions. Once the + network in a state representative of said conditions. Once the network has reached the required state, its responsiveness can be measured. The following explains how the former and the latter are achieved. @@ -270,7 +270,7 @@ experiencing ingress and egress flows that are similar to those when used by humans in the typical day-to-day pattern. - While any network can be put momentarily into working condition by + While any network can be put momentarily into working conditions by the means of a single HTTP transaction, taking measurements requires maintaining such conditions over sufficient time. Thus, measuring the network responsiveness in a consistent way depends on our ability @@ -286,7 +286,7 @@ way to achieve this is by creating multiple large bulk data-transfers in either downstream or upstream direction. Similar to conventional speed-test applications that also create a varying number of streams - to measure throughput. Working-conditions does the same. It also + to measure throughput. Working conditions does the same. It also requires a way to detect when the network is in a persistent working condition, called "saturation". This can be achieved by monitoring the instantaneous goodput over time. When the goodput stops @@ -298,7 +298,7 @@ o Should not waste traffic, since the user may be paying for it o Should finish within a short time-frame to avoid impacting other - users on the same network and/or experience varying conditions + users on the same network and/or experiencing varying conditions 4.1.1. Parallel vs Sequential Uplink and Downlink @@ -308,8 +308,8 @@ upstream) or the routing in the ISPs. Users sending data to an Internet service will fill the bottleneck on the upstream path to the server and thus expose a potential for bufferbloat to happen at this - bottleneck. On the downlink direction any download from an Internet - service will encounter a bottleneck and thus exposes another + bottleneck. In the downlink direction any download from an Internet + service will encounter a bottleneck and thus expose another potential for bufferbloat. Thus, when measuring responsiveness under working conditions it is important to consider both, the upstream and the downstream bufferbloat. This opens the door to measure both @@ -322,13 +322,16 @@ seconds of test per direction, while parallel measurement will allow for 20 seconds of testing in both directions. - However, a number caveats come with measuring in parallel: - Half- - duplex links may not expose uplink and downlink bufferbloat: A half- - duplex link may not allow during parallel measurement to saturate - both the uplink and the downlink direction. Thus, bufferbloat in - either of the directions may not be exposed during parallel - measurement. - Debuggability of the results becomes more obscure: - During parallel measurement it is impossible to differentiate on + However, a number caveats come with measuring in parallel: + + - Half-duplex links may not expose uplink and downlink bufferbloat: + A half-duplex link may not allow to saturate both the uplink + and the downlink direction during parallel measurement. Thus, + bufferbloat in either of the directions may not be exposed during + parallel measurement. + + - Debuggability of the results becomes more obscure: + During parallel measurement it is impossible to differentiate on @@ -338,26 +341,26 @@ Internet-Draft Responsiveness under Working Conditions August 2021 - whether the bufferbloat happens in the uplink or the downlink - direction. + whether the bufferbloat happens in the uplink or the downlink + direction. -4.1.2. From single-flow to multi-flow +4.1.2. From Single-flow to Multi-flow - As described in RFC 6349, a single TCP connection may not be + As described in [RFC6349], a single TCP connection may not be sufficient to saturate a path between a client and a server. On a high-BDP network, traditional TCP window-size constraints of 4MB are often not sufficient to fill the pipe. Additionally, traditional - loss-based TCP congestion control algorithms aggressively reacts to + loss-based TCP congestion control algorithms aggressively react to packet-loss by reducing the congestion window. This reaction will - reduce the queuing in the network, and thus "artificially" make the - bufferbloat appear lesser. + reduce the queuing in the network, and thus "artificially" make + bufferbloat appear less of a problem. - The goal of the measurement is to keep the network as busy as - possible in a sustained and persistent way. Thus, using multiple TCP + The goal is to keep the network as busy as possible in a sustained + and persistent way during the measurement. Thus, using multiple TCP connections is needed for a sustained bufferbloat by gradually adding - TCP flows until saturation is needed. + TCP flows until saturation is reached. -4.1.3. Reaching saturation +4.1.3. Reaching Saturation It is best to detect when saturation has been reached so that the measurement of responsiveness can start with the confidence that the @@ -367,8 +370,8 @@ buffers are completely filled. Thus, this depends highly on the congestion control that is being deployed on the sender-side. Congestion control algorithms like BBR may reach high throughput - without causing bufferbloat. (because the bandwidth-detection portion - of BBR is effectively seeking the bottleneck capacity) + without causing bufferbloat (because the bandwidth-detection portion + of BBR is effectively seeking the bottleneck capacity). It is advised to rather use loss-based congestion controls like Cubic to "reliably" ensure that the buffers are filled. @@ -379,7 +382,7 @@ packet-loss or ECN-marks signaling a congestion or even a full buffer of the bottleneck link. -4.1.4. Final algorithm +4.1.4. Final Algorithm The following is a proposal for an algorithm to reach saturation of a network by using HTTP/2 upload (POST) or download (GET) requests of @@ -404,7 +407,7 @@ throughput will remain stable. In the latter case, this means that saturation has been reached and - more importantly - is stable. - In detail, the steps of the algorithm are the following + In detail, the steps of the algorithm are the following: o Create 4 load-bearing connections @@ -453,7 +456,7 @@ the different stages of a separate network transaction as well as measuring on the load-bearing connections themselves. - Two aspects are being measured with this approach : + Two aspects are being measured with this approach: 1. How the network handles new connections and their different stages (DNS-request, TCP-handshake, TLS-handshake, HTTP/2 @@ -463,19 +466,19 @@ 2. How the network and the client/server networking stack handles the latency on the load-bearing connections themselves. E.g., - Smart queuing techniques on the bottleneck will allow to keep the + smart queuing techniques on the bottleneck will allow to keep the latency within a reasonable limit in the network and buffer- - reducing techniques like TCP_NOTSENT_LOWAT makes sure the client + reducing techniques like TCP_NOTSENT_LOWAT make sure the client and server TCP-stack is not a source of significant latency. To measure the former, we send a DNS-request, establish a TCP- connection on port 443, establish a TLS-context using TLS1.3 and send - an HTTP2 GET request for an object of a single byte large. This + an HTTP/2 GET request for an object the size of a single byte. This measurement will be repeated multiple times for accuracy. Each of these stages allows to collect a single latency measurement that can then be factored into the responsiveness computation. - To measure the latter, on the load-bearing connections (that uses + To measure the latter, on the load-bearing connections (that use HTTP/2) a GET request is multiplexed. This GET request is for a 1-byte object. This allows to measure the end-to-end latency on the connections that are using the network at full speed. @@ -492,10 +495,10 @@ an equal weight to each of these measurements. Finally, the resulting latency needs to be exposed to the users. - Users have been trained to accept metrics that have a notion of "The + Users have been trained to accept metrics that have a notion of "the higher the better". Latency measuring in units of seconds however is "the lower the better". Thus, converting the latency measurement to - a frequency allows using the familiar notion of "The higher the + a frequency allows using the familiar notion of "the higher the better". The term frequency has a very technical connotation. What we are effectively measuring is the number of round-trips from the @@ -513,7 +516,7 @@ which is a wink to the "revolutions per minute" that we are used to in cars. - Thus, our unit of measure is "Round-trip per Minute" (RPM) that + Thus, our unit of measure is "Round-trips per Minute" (RPM) that expresses responsiveness under working conditions. 4.2.2. Statistical Confidence @@ -527,13 +530,13 @@ 5. Protocol Specification By using standard protocols that are most commonly used by end-users, - no new protocol needs to be specified. However, both client and + no new protocol needs to be specified. However, both clients and servers need capabilities to execute this kind of measurement as well - as a standard to flow to provision the client with the necessary + as a standard to follow to provision the client with the necessary information. First, the capabilities of both the client and the server: It is - expected that both hosts support HTTP/2 over TLS 1.3. That the + expected that both hosts support HTTP/2 over TLS 1.3, and that the client is able to send a GET-request and a POST. The server needs the ability to serve both of these HTTP commands. Further, the server endpoint is accessible through a hostname that can be resolved @@ -546,13 +549,13 @@ 1. A config URL/response: This is the configuration file/format used by the client. It's a simple JSON file format that points the client at the various URLs mentioned below. All of the fields - are required except "test_endpoint". If the service-procier can + are required except "test_endpoint". If the service-provider can pin all of the requests for a test run to a specific node in the service (for a particular run), they can specify that node's name in the "test_endpoint" field. It's preferred that pinning of some sort is available. This is to ensure the measurement is against the same paths and not switching hosts during a test run - (ie moving from near POP A to near POP B) Sample content of this + (i.e., moving from near POP A to near POP B). Sample content of this JSON would be: @@ -577,7 +580,7 @@ 3. A "large" URL/response: This needs to serve a status code of 200 and a body size of at least 8GB. The body can be bigger, and - will need to grow as network speeds increases over time. The + will need to grow as network speeds increase over time. The actual body content is irrelevant. The client will probably never completely download the object. @@ -618,16 +621,19 @@ Internet-Draft Responsiveness under Working Conditions August 2021 + [RFC6349] ... + [RFC8033] Pan, R., Natarajan, P., Baker, F., and G. White, "Proportional Integral Controller Enhanced (PIE): A Lightweight Control Scheme to Address the Bufferbloat Problem", RFC 8033, DOI 10.17487/RFC8033, February 2017, . - [RFC8289] Nichols, K., Jacobson, V., McGregor, A., Ed., and J. - Iyengar, Ed., "Controlled Delay Active Queue Management", - RFC 8289, DOI 10.17487/RFC8289, January 2018, - . + [RFC8290] Hoeiland-Joergensen, T., McKenney, P., Taht, D., Ed., and + Gettys, J., "The Flow Queue CoDel Packet Scheduler and + Active Queue Management Algorithm", RFC 8290, + DOI 10.17487/RFC8290, January 2018, + . Authors' Addresses --opJtzjQTFsWo+cga Content-Type: text/x-diff; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="editorial-suggestions-2021-08-15-word.diff" [--- draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-00.txt-]{+++ draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-00-ea.txt+} 2021-08-15 [-12:01:01.213813125-] {+15:08:08.013416074+} +0200 @@ -17,7 +17,7 @@ Bufferbloat has been a long-standing problem on the Internet with more than a decade of work on standardizing technical solutions, [-implementations-] {+implementations,+} and testing. However, to this date, bufferbloat is still a very common problem for the end-users. Everyone "knows" that it is "normal" for a video conference to have problems when somebody else on the same home-network is watching a 4K movie. @@ -33,8 +33,8 @@ methodology to evaluate bufferbloat the way common users are experiencing it today, using today's most frequently used protocols and mechanisms to accurately measure the user-experience. We also provide a way to express [-the-] bufferbloat as a measure of "Round-trips per [-minute"-] {+Minute"+} (RPM) to have a more intuitive way for the users to understand the notion of bufferbloat. Status of This Memo @@ -81,14 +81,14 @@ Table of Contents 1. Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 2. Measuring is [-hard-] {+Hard+} . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 3. Goals . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 4. Measuring Responsiveness . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4.1. Working Conditions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4.1.1. Parallel vs Sequential Uplink and Downlink . . . . . 6 4.1.2. From [-single-flow-] {+Single-flow+} to [-multi-flow-] {+Multi-flow+} . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4.1.3. Reaching [-saturation-] {+Saturation+} . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4.1.4. Final [-algorithm-] {+Algorithm+} . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4.2. Measuring Responsiveness . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 4.2.1. Aggregating Round-trips per Minute . . . . . . . . . 9 4.2.2. Statistical Confidence . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 @@ -103,8 +103,8 @@ For many years, bufferbloat has been known as an unfortunately common issue in todays networks [Bufferbloat]. Solutions like FQ-codel [-[RFC8289]-] {+[RFC8290]+} or PIE [RFC8033] have been standardized and are to some [-extend-] {+extent+} widely implemented. Nevertheless, users still suffer from bufferbloat. @@ -129,7 +129,7 @@ bufferbloat problem. We believe that it is necessary to create a standardized way for measuring the [-extend-] {+extent+} of bufferbloat in a network and express it to the user in a user-friendly way. This should help existing measurement tools to add a bufferbloat measurement to their set of metrics. It will also allow to raise the awareness to the problem @@ -144,10 +144,10 @@ classification for those protocols is very common. It is thus very important to use those protocols for the measurements to avoid focusing on use-cases that are not actually affecting the end-user. Finally, we propose to use [-"round-trips-] {+"Round-trips+} per [-minute"-] {+Minute"+} as a metric to express the [-extend-] {+extent+} of bufferbloat. 2. Measuring is [-hard-] {+Hard+} There are several challenges around measuring bufferbloat accurately on the Internet. These challenges are due to different factors. @@ -155,7 +155,7 @@ problem space, and the reproducibility of the measurement. It is well-known that transparent TCP proxies are widely deployed on port 443 and/or port 80, while less [-common-] {+commonly+} on other ports. Thus, choice of the port-number to measure bufferbloat has a significant influence on the result. Other factors are the protocols being used. TCP and UDP traffic may take a largely different path on the Internet @@ -186,17 +186,17 @@ measurement. It seems that it's best to avoid extending the duration of the test beyond what's needed. The problem space around [-the-] bufferbloat is huge. Traditionally, one thinks of bufferbloat happening on the routers and switches of the Internet. Thus, simply measuring bufferbloat at the transport layer would be sufficient. However, the networking stacks of the clients and servers can also experience huge amounts of bufferbloat. Data sitting in TCP sockets or waiting in the application to be scheduled for sending causes artificial latency, which affects user-experience the same way [-the-] "traditional" bufferbloat does. Finally, measuring bufferbloat requires us to fill the buffers of the [-bottleneck-] {+bottleneck,+} and when buffer occupancy is at its peak, the latency measurement needs to be done. Achieving this in a reliable and reproducible way is not easy. First, one needs to ensure that buffers are actually full for a sustained period of time to allow for @@ -250,15 +250,15 @@ bufferbloat. 4. Finally, in order for this measurement to be user-friendly to a wide [-audience-] {+audience,+} it is important that such a measurement finishes within a short time-frame [-and-] {+with+} short being anything below 20 seconds. 4. Measuring Responsiveness The ability to reliably measure the responsiveness under typical working conditions is predicated by the ability to reliably put the network in a state representative of [-the-] said conditions. Once the network has reached the required state, its responsiveness can be measured. The following explains how the former and the latter are achieved. @@ -270,7 +270,7 @@ experiencing ingress and egress flows that are similar to those when used by humans in the typical day-to-day pattern. While any network can be put momentarily into working [-condition-] {+conditions+} by the means of a single HTTP transaction, taking measurements requires maintaining such conditions over sufficient time. Thus, measuring the network responsiveness in a consistent way depends on our ability @@ -286,7 +286,7 @@ way to achieve this is by creating multiple large bulk data-transfers in either downstream or upstream direction. Similar to conventional speed-test applications that also create a varying number of streams to measure throughput. [-Working-conditions-] {+Working conditions+} does the same. It also requires a way to detect when the network is in a persistent working condition, called "saturation". This can be achieved by monitoring the instantaneous goodput over time. When the goodput stops @@ -298,7 +298,7 @@ o Should not waste traffic, since the user may be paying for it o Should finish within a short time-frame to avoid impacting other users on the same network and/or [-experience-] {+experiencing+} varying conditions 4.1.1. Parallel vs Sequential Uplink and Downlink @@ -308,8 +308,8 @@ upstream) or the routing in the ISPs. Users sending data to an Internet service will fill the bottleneck on the upstream path to the server and thus expose a potential for bufferbloat to happen at this bottleneck. [-On-] {+In+} the downlink direction any download from an Internet service will encounter a bottleneck and thus [-exposes-] {+expose+} another potential for bufferbloat. Thus, when measuring responsiveness under working conditions it is important to consider both, the upstream and the downstream bufferbloat. This opens the door to measure both @@ -322,13 +322,16 @@ seconds of test per direction, while parallel measurement will allow for 20 seconds of testing in both directions. However, a number caveats come with measuring in parallel: - [-Half- duplex-] {+Half-duplex+} links may not expose uplink and downlink bufferbloat: A [-half- duplex-] {+half-duplex+} link may not allow [-during parallel measurement-] to saturate both the uplink and the downlink [-direction.-] {+direction during parallel measurement.+} Thus, bufferbloat in either of the directions may not be exposed during parallel measurement. - Debuggability of the results becomes more obscure: During parallel measurement it is impossible to differentiate on @@ -338,26 +341,26 @@ Internet-Draft Responsiveness under Working Conditions August 2021 whether the bufferbloat happens in the uplink or the downlink direction. 4.1.2. From [-single-flow-] {+Single-flow+} to [-multi-flow-] {+Multi-flow+} As described in [-RFC 6349,-] {+[RFC6349],+} a single TCP connection may not be sufficient to saturate a path between a client and a server. On a high-BDP network, traditional TCP window-size constraints of 4MB are often not sufficient to fill the pipe. Additionally, traditional loss-based TCP congestion control algorithms aggressively [-reacts-] {+react+} to packet-loss by reducing the congestion window. This reaction will reduce the queuing in the network, and thus "artificially" make [-the-] bufferbloat appear [-lesser.-] {+less of a problem.+} The goal [-of the measurement-] is to keep the network as busy as possible in a sustained and persistent [-way.-] {+way during the measurement.+} Thus, using multiple TCP connections is needed for a sustained bufferbloat by gradually adding TCP flows until saturation is [-needed.-] {+reached.+} 4.1.3. Reaching [-saturation-] {+Saturation+} It is best to detect when saturation has been reached so that the measurement of responsiveness can start with the confidence that the @@ -367,8 +370,8 @@ buffers are completely filled. Thus, this depends highly on the congestion control that is being deployed on the sender-side. Congestion control algorithms like BBR may reach high throughput without causing [-bufferbloat.-] {+bufferbloat+} (because the bandwidth-detection portion of BBR is effectively seeking the bottleneck [-capacity)-] {+capacity).+} It is advised to rather use loss-based congestion controls like Cubic to "reliably" ensure that the buffers are filled. @@ -379,7 +382,7 @@ packet-loss or ECN-marks signaling a congestion or even a full buffer of the bottleneck link. 4.1.4. Final [-algorithm-] {+Algorithm+} The following is a proposal for an algorithm to reach saturation of a network by using HTTP/2 upload (POST) or download (GET) requests of @@ -404,7 +407,7 @@ throughput will remain stable. In the latter case, this means that saturation has been reached and - more importantly - is stable. In detail, the steps of the algorithm are the [-following-] {+following:+} o Create 4 load-bearing connections @@ -453,7 +456,7 @@ the different stages of a separate network transaction as well as measuring on the load-bearing connections themselves. Two aspects are being measured with this [-approach :-] {+approach:+} 1. How the network handles new connections and their different stages (DNS-request, TCP-handshake, TLS-handshake, HTTP/2 @@ -463,19 +466,19 @@ 2. How the network and the client/server networking stack handles the latency on the load-bearing connections themselves. E.g., [-Smart-] {+smart+} queuing techniques on the bottleneck will allow to keep the latency within a reasonable limit in the network and buffer- reducing techniques like TCP_NOTSENT_LOWAT [-makes-] {+make+} sure the client and server TCP-stack is not a source of significant latency. To measure the former, we send a DNS-request, establish a TCP- connection on port 443, establish a TLS-context using TLS1.3 and send an [-HTTP2-] {+HTTP/2+} GET request for an object {+the size+} of a single [-byte large.-] {+byte.+} This measurement will be repeated multiple times for accuracy. Each of these stages allows to collect a single latency measurement that can then be factored into the responsiveness computation. To measure the latter, on the load-bearing connections (that [-uses-] {+use+} HTTP/2) a GET request is multiplexed. This GET request is for a 1-byte object. This allows to measure the end-to-end latency on the connections that are using the network at full speed. @@ -492,10 +495,10 @@ an equal weight to each of these measurements. Finally, the resulting latency needs to be exposed to the users. Users have been trained to accept metrics that have a notion of [-"The-] {+"the+} higher the better". Latency measuring in units of seconds however is "the lower the better". Thus, converting the latency measurement to a frequency allows using the familiar notion of [-"The-] {+"the+} higher the better". The term frequency has a very technical connotation. What we are effectively measuring is the number of round-trips from the @@ -513,7 +516,7 @@ which is a wink to the "revolutions per minute" that we are used to in cars. Thus, our unit of measure is [-"Round-trip-] {+"Round-trips+} per Minute" (RPM) that expresses responsiveness under working conditions. 4.2.2. Statistical Confidence @@ -527,13 +530,13 @@ 5. Protocol Specification By using standard protocols that are most commonly used by end-users, no new protocol needs to be specified. However, both [-client-] {+clients+} and servers need capabilities to execute this kind of measurement as well as a standard to [-flow-] {+follow+} to provision the client with the necessary information. First, the capabilities of both the client and the server: It is expected that both hosts support HTTP/2 over TLS [-1.3. That-] {+1.3, and that+} the client is able to send a GET-request and a POST. The server needs the ability to serve both of these HTTP commands. Further, the server endpoint is accessible through a hostname that can be resolved @@ -546,13 +549,13 @@ 1. A config URL/response: This is the configuration file/format used by the client. It's a simple JSON file format that points the client at the various URLs mentioned below. All of the fields are required except "test_endpoint". If the [-service-procier-] {+service-provider+} can pin all of the requests for a test run to a specific node in the service (for a particular run), they can specify that node's name in the "test_endpoint" field. It's preferred that pinning of some sort is available. This is to ensure the measurement is against the same paths and not switching hosts during a test run [-(ie-] {+(i.e.,+} moving from near POP A to near POP [-B)-] {+B).+} Sample content of this JSON would be: @@ -577,7 +580,7 @@ 3. A "large" URL/response: This needs to serve a status code of 200 and a body size of at least 8GB. The body can be bigger, and will need to grow as network speeds [-increases-] {+increase+} over time. The actual body content is irrelevant. The client will probably never completely download the object. @@ -618,16 +621,19 @@ Internet-Draft Responsiveness under Working Conditions August 2021 {+[RFC6349] ...+} [RFC8033] Pan, R., Natarajan, P., Baker, F., and G. White, "Proportional Integral Controller Enhanced (PIE): A Lightweight Control Scheme to Address the Bufferbloat Problem", RFC 8033, DOI 10.17487/RFC8033, February 2017, . [-[RFC8289] Nichols, K., Jacobson, V., McGregor, A.,-] {+[RFC8290] Hoeiland-Joergensen, T., McKenney, P., Taht, D.,+} Ed., and [-J. Iyengar, Ed., "Controlled Delay-] {+Gettys, J., "The Flow Queue CoDel Packet Scheduler and+} Active Queue [-Management",-] {+Management Algorithm",+} RFC [-8289,-] {+8290,+} DOI [-10.17487/RFC8289,-] {+10.17487/RFC8290,+} January 2018, [-.-] {+.+} Authors' Addresses --opJtzjQTFsWo+cga-- From nobody Sun Aug 15 17:18:59 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64ADD3A074D; Sun, 15 Aug 2021 17:18:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=att.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id twCeVFrCwAkL; Sun, 15 Aug 2021 17:18:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE57B3A0746; Sun, 15 Aug 2021 17:18:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049458.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049458.ppops.net-00191d01. 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"nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com" To: IETF IPPM WG Message-ID: <1489908299.846483.1629083510498@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_846482_1536699632.1629083510497" References: <1489908299.846483.1629083510498.ref@mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.18850 YMailNorrin Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] draft-elkins-ippm-encrypted-pdmv2-00 - Slides from Side Meeting X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 03:11:59 -0000 ------=_Part_846482_1536699632.1629083510497 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All, We had a very good discussion at the side meeting at IETF111 of draft-elkin= s-ippm-encrypted-pdmv2-00. We are discussing encryption of the PDM Destination Option and the best way= to do this. You may download the slides for the side meeting at:=C2=A0 http://www.insidethestack.com/public/FullPresentationForPDMv2SideMeeting.pd= f We will also have meetings to discuss this every two weeks starting on Frid= ay, August 20th at 9:00am pacific.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Please let me know if you wo= uld like to attend and I can give you the Zoom link. Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360 ------=_Part_846482_1536699632.1629083510497 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello= All,

We had a very good discussion at the side me= eting at IETF111 of draft-elkins-ippm-encrypted-pdmv2-00.

We are discussing encryption of the PDM Destination Option and the = best way to do this.

You may download the slides f= or the side meeting at: 

http://www.insidethestack.com/public/FullPresentationFo= rPDMv2SideMeeting.pdf

We will a= lso have meetings to discuss this every two weeks starting on Friday, Augus= t 20th at 9:00am pacific.   Please let me know if you would like = to attend and I can give you the Zoom link.

Thanks= ,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360
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Mon, 16 Aug 2021 07:13:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1629123237; bh=bo3LgsjgR7Yof3+EIDm+M9ouWYqz9tsvsEvBB7PH5Fc=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=JDiPCuCvt5rjMKVxgIm2Jy3rFKhJsapzQahFKk6l+m0pqsJg6Hr4UhESwrP7fGz6C647DfresXiFiio+8X/YhUUUcK2HuWxJ8ow1WindxW6npYTJoYKYKeXkln4R2bVPaA1MBOl0+1NXfz3CibjYRubH0YUz6vEVeV7zH0z5LIyEPLe64LuUntoybnMSWlPdUFwJk9EyUuY7gZ0PZXZCCxdi4QbktuBF1+gLOVLdkbdgxezJJNyLTynzjNa8EbB1cMxGXTGhyuzOK58Z0FHyamDyvO2nxV6ncYW00R+1fpbCUxWBYQbU5D2g73JUskhUtMQCYcGssIO08wVANYQLhw== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1629123237; bh=QfiH2QPJl9S3mkM6S02IGbcyaLaWuVBQQL1zz54071L=; h=X-Sonic-MF:Date:From:To:Subject:From:Subject; b=HDopp3UBmPUDrlYK76ITptdSSdTmsHRlh+mepX7Wm94a0Rej0cCjr8L1wDWvmlyiK+dQ/vCQJ/W0ZZdQUnhdE6nl47gF5CXPr1I3lo3/Wb1Ud4KEI9EFLdXXTBhwVmkJ8If/X9i/MLj3kLoiViDgFKzbXYwfwmGUgUkty/CzhsKa9wcpmQHE/4udGyaILiYc1S9jGnbMn3x+k1+JkfbJAdbpqgKA3CvFyU6Jm/FMHTygwGPqfcroK3unQS10g960qFo2L9qIxtUSY37mqurLj6P/m8Adocb+ZHBO+uacw3mxU4mTJwlIGvbYnYGqFENgwzOqJerMzH+cTgJvEzxJ4g== X-YMail-OSG: L0SI1L8VM1l0a7agq1K.a8J.wQDvIfzAadBANtVST6Q_BFyOomDgwWsTX9f8bDn ebeMdQxaPxDPXeKexk5RIZJJ7nVQvmAFxjkMCsK6pshVTCJ_jHEfX.YZM6g7oPlPeEZsvFXXb2rt ngbmhxuflb7llGOmyHPYttaxbJW5R7mZiJ4VA5jxPv_neKOuXwOarRnNlgZH0QXVRMsNJOr3_ZhH JfOfU95fflxYM9RYKKF_Mi4Y5gLEIsShzGf0d4E2Ch9HDUcLAJqN_kEHLTSFMf0i9mKvT_d7dmjJ .aG12Zgyd6yB_zXZpZC686SCbRx4q12rTGr7.lBGQvzm3qa.rMxTqoGuZ4E61N8qZvVjTaSoEZMO .QjMKdwCwVl0SNsxZD.dWDrPd50TUsZeXUKil5XlmrVlLOq6w9wmN.eOEeq47j7G2YsnCm54I9M7 C540t_2QjKP8bhP5D4_xvI5yCZD_aEB.JnCwpK58bXgJLML23F9OVWvxIbNEZfN4Bo4j33RDa66X .0fYnWroEpkUZtgoiJ.pUiNa.uqIbSOzxJhtnNWaVtmxs3RBdugXxFV.ypf4WMMf0QhiKTppBv7D h2HkpCKAMK3Zo8bcL3Mb5MidlaS4NYR4EqahQLUeWcDVnU8llgL7jsKCUXrF5vl_XQiTlvdXFNkf yReVJ72jWZfEiNGKzwEfrIJjL3jaBbdcyTBTtewnlHMLqRb2NgrAPuvP8QkZvHa1stgbilGE.wpS nFMfpYwXdbGrsD.QIHbw0QLfwKGFij._UkBLyqeRJuH8X2kfmzfz2sQHGO2AWVuOJ90OzEhYZCN. epHM69_LcCk8z3kiRSwYj_KfRWEb74qwCjUGYWwq__MBTHZV0i7ORr9jHTstKJut272GOEUXp_QC YLeQI3mikM95S8eNz1nnNWXjzpVZWzZgQHSbNZOqlbfF5GEWONSfjnECjngnZub_4x.bwhFksSLE XAsN3cf5GeOHzHjKU6HUlvcfgxtbTmiLpDg_OrDJswC5H4pu1iACNomfY6XKIN8h_dt8LNym_OKP lcJWtnMAvPCATDPQOapEazabV6m_2KeTx1EpYV3R9UiXMy2U4Bx.X7WYzlaTk6uPQQPRIi5GdG1n .vBzosR5TJhoyKi6D7nUmpm80W1OJK8igXfTDHQRn27PRbYDpq.xzpcOhi38GzYiGN6z.zX6eE60 2NZpn6xfYp25bhm2mF.FXAfT_2eOs.6oJ3R7_8YzT0EiZZSFcvIIfuaDirDNmNpLDZ9yvbpUqrPb bQZpsPHfoCqpe_aZvC0G1klk5HgJnl0kp5RtDOnnDgEpLzgSmnZeQuiaFy6FYXorjtn7D1MFjGYK U6o0KXvE6H2IKtF37l_GeGaX8jNkr5yJORQ.fVLvQa6Ln0k3QRzWJY13k5b5R46IJudBSapfdM_m etKgRDd7XaZ0HqWHgSJQKgWnsVtrnr.VRA4YIxr_9dMG6bqgnZtYZXwrm922g_XT6BnlVJx9EqbA tW429hLCVcjPwH38SO3sAKuytbbzcFBDQygt13qGmyOz5vYZNxhVN1wRKeaAb1d8BZd5M0Ncio46 cK2G59ZrINf4FAk9l81ZhfJaXVEQwHC.Diq15jFXzIRj34mIKAUW13QjNiw_U5StCjqrETGXF9Cs fdKEtcPIR.pzREgywQEkQVq5rHXF8NEOQ7Kh_DsMlRENheR3dFCvv5Z149YZtRNUiUB8xb6yyK0d Iwt3La5Glq0ZzaD.WSzu28OVU4EvitDVkwqPsfpNMsQY0jkJPViidVIKkLR5QGDoKdSBjhu1URoZ 7aGXmA720Onn7OJGgpIXT0jY_tOBXCVpGnWcENMaUZKLXKQ6n8_LUn2KKSPvcfUyepjcVOLklgJx bytYdAlBmyofch2rxWL9bcfHYL7ZdphLv0luqQMrplo7I1.qAwgUsl_d_0N1woupqb4slF3D0.pk vLE4jqNW_SninUhfhkhNg7joDOeZYf04QUFkaizBtUyuwyjzq5oX6dEmqzOh1._2R_TIJ0BRw.o_ oZumE4rXrygbgcHaRE1xv9Xq5Ox3aewiz7tL1LFD.IEazsUz2LVfyWr_J6kz.AsRb35W6hLj_szo H6oS98KllDS3XzgdQjnNYxmACuGx6pe80Nb5BANAYz3pjfgnCj0OKMfnqONwm7y5pC_gk7iAJekX 4oD70BT3MpW5ugICGuwPThAWftwdvwC_sgkVTA9Pggg5tVXeQr2KQlNukkGff6wgrq6RxqjnQs7v 2_5U2t_Dq4FpLMYPiY.ZHIgn_.NwKqVYOriCU923FxhDLGPwmmZ3n9NEgCuNtQWOQzXWNXdyo4zA AL1LrV5YZoCp0k4EKP1rxXgOf9xCmGiE.LfxBs7MyxsQXKuia X-Sonic-MF: Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic309.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 16 Aug 2021 14:13:57 +0000 Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 14:13:55 +0000 (UTC) From: "nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com" To: IETF IPPM WG Message-ID: <131490211.977167.1629123235136@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1489908299.846483.1629083510498@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1489908299.846483.1629083510498.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1489908299.846483.1629083510498@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_977166_1259329390.1629123235134" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.18850 YMailNorrin Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] draft-elkins-ippm-encrypted-pdmv2-00 - Slides from Side Meeting X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2021 14:14:10 -0000 ------=_Part_977166_1259329390.1629123235134 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, Here is a recording of the side meeting for any who are interested. PDMv2 Side Meeting Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360=20 On Sunday, August 15, 2021, 08:12:09 PM PDT, nalini.elkins@insidethesta= ck.com wrote: =20 =20 Hello All, We had a very good discussion at the side meeting at IETF111 of draft-elkin= s-ippm-encrypted-pdmv2-00. We are discussing encryption of the PDM Destination Option and the best way= to do this. You may download the slides for the side meeting at:=C2=A0 http://www.insidethestack.com/public/FullPresentationForPDMv2SideMeeting.pd= f We will also have meetings to discuss this every two weeks starting on Frid= ay, August 20th at 9:00am pacific.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Please let me know if you wo= uld like to attend and I can give you the Zoom link. Thanks, Nalini Elkins CEO and Founder Inside Products, Inc. www.insidethestack.com (831) 659-8360_______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm =20 ------=_Part_977166_1259329390.1629123235134 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All,

Here = is a recording of the side meeting for any who are interested.


Thanks,
Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insideth= estack.com
(831) 659-8360


=20
=20
On Sunday, August 15, 2021, 08:12:09 PM PDT, nalini.elk= ins@insidethestack.com <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com> wrote:


Hello All,
=

We had a very good discussion at the side meeting at IE= TF111 of draft-elkins-ippm-encrypted-pdmv2-00.

We = are discussing encryption of the PDM Destination Option and the best way to= do this.

You may download the slides for the side= meeting at: 

http://www.insideth= estack.com/public/FullPresentationForPDMv2SideMeeting.pdf

We will als= o have meetings to discuss this every two weeks starting on Friday, August = 20th at 9:00am pacific.   Please let me know if you would like to= attend and I can give you the Zoom link.

=
Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founde= r
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360
_______________________________________________
ippm mailin= g list
ippm@ietf.org
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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tommy & Ian, Authors, and IPPM, I took a look at the other draft the WG is considering. TL;DR: I support adoption, and further development/review. For In-situ OAM Deployment, the first sentence of the Abstract is the same = as data Integrity, so same comment. I note that this draft is intended as a BCP. It will be interesting to see = if there is sufficient experience when the WG is reaching consensus to warr= ant BCP status, and we can leave this aspiration intact during WG adoption,= IMO. I appreciate that Section 4 (Types of IOAM) motivates deployment by describ= ing use cases. But after introducing IOAM node roles, the draft should use = that terminology in this section. Also, the ECMP acronym and load balancing= got mixed together in an odd way. Last, "end-to-end" is used ambiguously i= n the Operations/Troubleshooting bullet: Current: o Per-hop tracing: OAM information about each IOAM node a packet traverses is collected and stored within the user data packet as the packet progresses through the IOAM domain. Potential uses of IOAM per-hop tracing include: * Optimization: Understand the different paths different packets traverse between a source and a sink in a network that uses load balancing such as Equal Cost Load Balancing (ECMP). This information could be used to tune the algorithm for ECMP for optimized network resource usage. * Operations/Troubleshooting: Understand which path a particular packet or set of packets take as well as what amount of jitter and delay different nodes in the path contribute to the overall end-to-end delay and jitter. Suggest: o Per-hop tracing: OAM information about each IOAM node a packet traverses is collected and stored within the user data packet as the packet progresses through the IOAM domain. Potential uses of IOAM per-hop tracing include: * Optimization: Understand the different paths different packets | traverse between a Encapsulating and a Decapsulating node in a net= work that uses | load balancing such as Equal Cost Multi-Path (ECMP). This information could be used to tune the algorithm for ECMP for optimized network resource usage. * Operations/Troubleshooting: Understand which path a particular packet or set of packets take as well as what amount of jitter | and delay different IOAM nodes in the path contribute to the overa= ll | delay and jitter. There seem to be many options for deployment, such as whether to use IOAM D= irect Export in *Transit Nodes*, but it seems that some form of export is r= equired at the edge nodes (Encap & Decap). In the context of this draft as = a BCP, what (export) option is best for certain circumstances? The term "best" only appears twice, on the first page. So please look for s= ome circumstances where the best choice of options is clear, and call them = out specifically, like "Pre-allocated Trace-Option is best-suited for softw= are packet forwarder implementations." But "The operator has to ensure that the packet with the pre-allocated array that carries the IOAM Data-Fields does not exceed the MTU of any of the links in the IOAM domain." The material provided in Section 7.3. IOAM Trace Option Types is closer to = a BCP than other parts of the draft. Regarding: ..."The operator has to ensure that the minimum MTU of any of the links in the IOAM domain is known to all IOAM transit nodes." Each IOAM node knows the MTU of all its interconnecting links. So: - Isn't there some way the IOAM nodes can take the burden to discover and = share the MTU info within the domain? - In a network domain with non-IOAM nodes and IOAM nodes, in what deployme= nt scenario would the MTU-view of the IOAM nodes remain valid for the entir= e domain? In 7.6 IOAM Active Mode: (I'm sorry, I fell off the sled completely here.) The IOAM active mode flag indicates that a packet is an active OAM packet as opposed to regular user data traffic. Active mode is expected to be used for active measurement using IOAM. Example use- cases include: o Endpoint detailed active measurement: Synthetic probe packets are sent between the source and destination, traversing the IOAM domain. These probe packets include a Trace Option-Type (i.e., either incremental or pre-allocated). Are the source and destination outside the IOAM Domain? Figure 1 of the fl= ags draft says yes (?). (But the packets seem to carry IOAM information/data into the domain, someh= ow.) Since the probe packets are sent between the endpoints, these packets are treated as data packets by the IOAM domain, and do not require special treatment at the IOAM layer. So, the probe packets ARE encapsulated, like other data packets would be? ("do not require special treatment" is not clear to me.) The encapsulating node can choose to set the Active flag, providing an explicit indication that these probe packets are meant for telemetry collection. Ok, but the flags draft says: The active flag indicates that a packet is used for active measurement. An IOAM decapsulating node that receives a packet with the Active flag set in one of its Trace options must terminate the packet. and then the Synthetic probe packets don't reach the intended destination, beyond the IOAM domain ?? It would be good to make this clear(er). In any case, I suggest to move the reference to the flags draft: For details on IOAM active mode, please refer to [I-D.ietf-ippm-ioam-flags]. very early in this section - don't place this reference in the last sentenc= e. hope this helps, Al From: ippm On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 12:29 PM To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) Subject: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity documents Hello IPPM, As discussed in our meeting last week, we will be starting an adoption call= for two IOAM-related documents that have been raised as important dependen= cies during the IESG review of IOAM-data. This email begins a Working Group adoption call for two documents: Integrity of In-situ OAM Data Fields https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity/<= https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners= -ippm-ioam-data-integrity/__;!!BhdT!0Ny1D5V4maIuQ6qGnzMqhb2g1XeWhqAWW3MMMWL= T5TI-730YRx2JHVbaSFNx$> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity-03= .html In-situ OAM Deployment https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deploymen= t-03 This call will last until Wednesday, August 18. Please reply to this email = with your comments, and if you think these documents should be taken on by = IPPM. Best, Tommy & Ian --_000_SJ0PR02MB78531CFBA742399273C6BC93D3FD9SJ0PR02MB7853namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Tommy & Ian, Authors, and IPPM,

 

I took a look at the other draft the WG is considering.

 

TL;DR: I support adoption, and further development/review.=

 

For In-situ OAM Deployment, the first sentence of the Abstract = is the same as data Integrity, so same comment.

 

I note that this draft is intended as a BCP. It will be interes= ting to see if there is sufficient experience when the WG is reaching conse= nsus to warrant BCP status, and we can leave this aspiration intact during WG adoption, IMO.

 

I appreciate that Section 4 (Types of IOAM) motivates deploymen= t by describing use cases. But after introducing IOAM node roles, the draft= should use that terminology in this section. Also, the ECMP acronym and load balancing got mixed together in an odd way= . Last, “end-to-end” is used ambiguously in the Operations/Trou= bleshooting bullet:

 

Current:

   o  Per-hop tracing: OAM= information about each IOAM node a packet

      traverses is collected and stored within the user data packet as

      the packet progresses through the IOAM domain.  Potential uses of

      IOAM per-hop tracing include:

 

      *  Optimization: Unders= tand the different paths different packets

     =     traverse between a source and a sink in a network that uses

     =     load balancing such as Equal Cost Load Balancing (ECMP).  This

     =     information could be used to tune the algorithm for ECMP for

     =     optimized network resource usage.

 

      *  Operations/Troublesh= ooting: Understand which path a particular

     =     packet or set of packets take as well as what amount of jitter<= /o:p>

     =     and delay different nodes in the path contribute to the overall=

     =     end-to-end delay and jitter.

 

Suggest:

   o  Per-hop tracing: OAM= information about each IOAM node a packet

      traverses is collected and stored within the user data packet as

      the packet progresses through the IOAM domain.  Potential uses of

      IOAM per-hop tracing include:

 

      *  Optimization: Unders= tand the different paths different packets

|     = ;   traverse between a Encapsulating and a Decapsulating node in a netwo= rk that uses

|     = ;   load balancing such as Equal Cost Multi-Path (ECMP).  This

     =     information could be used to tune the algorithm for ECMP for

     =     optimized network resource usage.

 

      *  Operations/Troublesh= ooting: Understand which path a particular

     =     packet or set of packets take as well as what amount of jitter<= /o:p>

|     = ;   and delay different IOAM nodes in the path contribute to the overall=

|     = ;   <source host to destination host ??> delay and jitter.

 

 

There seem to be many options for deployment, such as whether t= o use IOAM Direct Export in *Transit Nodes*, but it seems that some = form of export is required at the edge nodes (Encap<= /span> & Decap). In the context of this draft a= s a BCP, what (export) option is best for certain circumstances? 

 

The term “best” only appears twice, on the first pa= ge. So please look for some circumstances where the best choice of options = is clear, and call them out specifically, like “Pre-allocated Trace-Option is best-suited for software packet forwarder implementations.= ” But  

     =  “The operator has to ensure that the packet with the pre= -allocated

      array that carries the IOAM Data-Fields does not exceed the MTU of

      any of the links in the IOAM domain.”

The material provided in Section 7.3. IOAM Trace Option Types i= s closer to a BCP than other parts of the draft.

 

Regarding:

     =  ...“The operator

      has to ensure that the minimum MTU of any of the links in the IOAM

      domain is known to all IOAM transit nodes.”<= /p>

Each IOAM node knows the MTU of all its interconnecting links. = So:

 - Isn’t the= re some way the IOAM nodes can take the burden to discover and share the MT= U info within the domain?

 - In a network do= main with non-IOAM nodes and IOAM nodes, in what deployment scenario would = the MTU-view of the IOAM nodes remain valid for the entire domain?

 

In 7.6 IOAM Active Mode:

(I’m sorry, I fell off the sled completely here.)

 

   The IOAM active mode flag indicates that a packet is an active OAM

   packet as opposed to regular user data traffic.  Active mode is

   expected to be used for active measurement using IOAM.  Example use-

   cases include:

 

   o  Endpoint detailed ac= tive measurement: Synthetic probe packets are

      sent between the source and destination, traversing the IOAM

      domain.  These probe pa= ckets include a Trace Option-Type (i.e.,

      either incremental or pre-allocated).

Are the source and destination outside the IOAM Domain?  Figure 1 of the flags draft says yes (?).

(But the packets seem to carry IOAM information/data into the d= omain, somehow.)

 

      Since the probe = packets are

      sent between the endpoints, these packets are treated as data

      packets by the IOAM domain, and do not require special treatment

      at the IOAM layer.

So, the probe packets ARE encapsulated, like other data packets= would be?

(“do not require special treatment” is not clear to= me.)

 

   &= nbsp;           The encapsula= ting node can choose to set the

      Active flag, providing an explicit indication that these probe<= /o:p>

      packets are meant for telemetry collection.

 

Ok, but the flags draft says:

     The active flag = indicates that a packet is used for active

     measurement.=   An IOAM decapsulating node that receives a packet with

     the Active flag = set in one of its Trace options must terminate the

     packet.

and then the Synthetic probe packets don’t reach the inte= nded destination,

beyond the IOAM domain ?? It would = be good to make this clear(er).

 

In any case, I suggest to move the = reference to the flags draft:

&n= bsp;  For details on IOAM active mode, please refer to

&n= bsp;  [I-D.ietf-ippm<= /span>-ioam-flags].

very early in this section= – don’t place this reference in the last sentence.<= /span>

 

hope this helps,

Al

 

 

From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly
Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 12:29 PM
To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity docu= ments

 

Hello IPPM,

 

As discussed in our meeting last week, we will be starting = an adoption call for two IOAM-related documents that have been raised as im= portant dependencies during the IESG review of IOAM-data.

 

This email begins a Working Group adoption call for two doc= uments:

 

 

In-situ OAM Deployment

 

This call will last until Wednesday, August 18. Please reply to this email with your comments,= and if you think these documents should be taken on by IPPM.

 

Best,

Tommy & Ian

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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is excellent work and I support it's adoption. IOAM will provide operators critical management information that is badly = lacking today. This is a reason many enterprises delay IPv6 deployment = and IOAM will be very beneficial in this regard and others as well. Providing integrity will also remove another set of deployment related = concerns. Other key concerns are in the areas of operational adding complexity and = resulting overhead or potential performance issues. These areas seem to = be addressed in the draft as well, but I have a related question/concern. As an enterprise operator, deploying anything new is always a challenge. = And if other new solutions for integrity of EHs choose different = solutions, then this challenge becomes magnified. Then potentially add = confidentiality , authentication, etc. and the situation could quickly = become a morass of solutions. So my question is if there is any chance = of considering a more holistic approach to related or similar solutions? Once again, please keep up the great work=21 Thanks Mike From: ippm On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 12:29 PM To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm=40ietf.org) Subject: =5Bippm=5D Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity = documents =5BExternal email=5D Hello IPPM, As discussed in our meeting last week, we will be starting an adoption = call for two IOAM-related documents that have been raised as important = dependencies during the IESG review of IOAM-data. This email begins a Working Group adoption call for two documents: Integrity of In-situ OAM Data Fields https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity/ https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity-03= =2Ehtml In-situ OAM Deployment https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deploymen= t-03 This call will last until Wednesday, August 18. Please reply to this email = with your comments, and if you think these documents should be taken on by = IPPM. Best, Tommy & Ian The information contained in this communication is highly confidential and = is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom this = communication is directed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are = hereby notified that any viewing, copying, disclosure or distribution of = this information is prohibited. Please notify the sender, by electronic = mail or telephone, of any unintended receipt and delete the original = message without making any copies. =20 Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan and Blue Care Network of Michigan are = nonprofit corporations and independent licensees of the Blue Cross and = Blue Shield Association. This message was secured by Zix(R). --_000_DM6PR14MB317861AC7C701D00FD224265D7FE9DM6PR14MB3178namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=09This message was sent securely using = Zix&=23174;

<=21--=5Bif gte mso 9=5D> <=21=5Bendif=5D--><=21--=5Bif gte mso 9=5D> <=21=5Bendif=5D-->

This is excellent work and I support = it&=238217;s adoption. 

 

IOAM will provide operators critical management = information that is badly lacking today.  This is a reason many = enterprises delay IPv6 deployment and IOAM will be very beneficial in this = regard and others as well. 

 

Providing integrity will also remove another = set of deployment related concerns.  

 

Other key concerns are in the areas of = operational adding complexity and resulting overhead or potential = performance issues.    These areas seem to be addressed in = the draft as well, but I have a related question/concern. 

 As an enterprise operator, deploying = anything new is always a challenge.  And if other new solutions for = integrity of EHs choose different solutions, then this challenge becomes = magnified.  Then potentially add confidentiality , authentication, etc. and the situation could quickly become a morass of solutions.  =   So my question is  if there is any chance of considering = a more holistic approach to related or similar solutions? 

 

Once again, please keep up the great = work=21

 

Thanks

 

Mike

 

From: ippm = <ippm-bounces=40ietf.org> On Behalf Of Tommy Pauly
Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 12:29 PM
To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm=40ietf.org) <ippm=40ietf.org>
Subject: =5Bippm=5D Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity = documents

 

=5BExternal email=5D

Hello IPPM,

 

As discussed in our meeting last week, we will = be starting an adoption call for two IOAM-related documents that have been = raised as important dependencies during the IESG review of = IOAM-data.

 

This email begins a Working Group adoption call = for two documents:

 

 

In-situ OAM Deployment

 

This call will last until Wednesday, August = 18. Please reply to this email with your comments, and if you think = these documents should be taken on by IPPM.

 

Best,

Tommy & Ian


The information contained in this communication is highly confidential = and is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom this = communication is directed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are = hereby notified that any viewing, copying, disclosure or distribution of = this information is prohibited. Please notify the sender, by electronic = mail or telephone, of any unintended receipt and delete the original = message without making any copies.

Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan and Blue Care Network of Michigan = are nonprofit corporations and independent licensees of the Blue Cross and = Blue Shield Association.



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Server 8.1.0.9.20210415 64bit (built Apr 15 2021)) id <0QY100E00QOVM500@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com> for ippm@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2021 10:54:09 -0700 (PDT) X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: de279c0840622e930446fe69a11c94de X-V-E-CD: a87963ab04906aefdc8890d4ca7d18fc X-V-R-CD: 2d460e8b6e90be9136805062252009d5 X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: 81d758f1-efef-47ec-b922-7bf990f4c7a1 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-08-18_06:2021-08-17, 2021-08-18 signatures=0 Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [17.11.53.150]) by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.9.20210415 64bit (built Apr 15 2021)) with ESMTPSA id <0QY1003IOR251H00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com> for ippm@ietf.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2021 10:54:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Tommy Pauly Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_16C7CA78-AE5D-40C2-97B2-EE01F17CBF76" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3691.0.3\)) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 10:54:05 -0700 References: <69C9F697-A970-41DD-B7EF-0C17204D57AA@apple.com> To: "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" In-reply-to: <69C9F697-A970-41DD-B7EF-0C17204D57AA@apple.com> Message-id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3691.0.3) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-08-18_06:2021-08-17, 2021-08-18 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for IOAM deployment and integrity documents X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 17:54:17 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_16C7CA78-AE5D-40C2-97B2-EE01F17CBF76 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello IPPM, Thanks to everyone who provided feedback and reviews of these documents! = We do have WG support for adopting these. Authors, please submit draft-ietf-ippm-*-00 versions when ready, ideally = incorporating any comments received during the adoption call. Best, Tommy & Ian > On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:28 AM, Tommy Pauly = wrote: >=20 > Hello IPPM, >=20 > As discussed in our meeting last week, we will be starting an adoption = call for two IOAM-related documents that have been raised as important = dependencies during the IESG review of IOAM-data. >=20 > This email begins a Working Group adoption call for two documents: >=20 > Integrity of In-situ OAM Data Fields > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity/= = > = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-integrity-0= 3.html = >=20 > In-situ OAM Deployment > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployment/ = = > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-deployme= nt-03 = >=20 > This call will last until Wednesday, August 18. Please reply to this = email with your comments, and if you think these documents should be = taken on by IPPM. >=20 > Best, > Tommy & Ian > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --Apple-Mail=_16C7CA78-AE5D-40C2-97B2-EE01F17CBF76 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hello= IPPM,

Thanks to = everyone who provided feedback and reviews of these documents! We do = have WG support for adopting these.

Authors, please submit = draft-ietf-ippm-*-00 versions when ready, ideally incorporating any = comments received during the adoption call.

Best,
Tommy & = Ian

On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:28 AM, = Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Hello IPPM,

As discussed in our = meeting last week, we will be starting an adoption call for two = IOAM-related documents that have been raised as important dependencies = during the IESG review of IOAM-data.

This email begins a Working Group = adoption call for two documents:

Integrity of In-situ = OAM Data Fields
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data= -integrity/
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-brockners-ippm-ioam-data-= integrity-03.html

In-situ OAM Deployment
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-brockners-opsawg-ioam-de= ployment/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-brockners-opsawg-io= am-deployment-03

This call will last until Wednesday, August = 18. Please reply to this email with your comments, and if you think = these documents should be taken on by IPPM.

Best,
Tommy & = Ian
_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

= --Apple-Mail=_16C7CA78-AE5D-40C2-97B2-EE01F17CBF76-- From nobody Wed Aug 18 15:02:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95E3C3A0B72; Wed, 18 Aug 2021 15:02:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.553 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.553 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1uwsYSnzl7Is; Wed, 18 Aug 2021 15:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com [17.171.2.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FAB53A0C7D; Wed, 18 Aug 2021 15:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 17ILh52F056012; Wed, 18 Aug 2021 15:01:44 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=date : from : to : cc : subject : message-id : references : mime-version : content-type : in-reply-to; s=20180706; bh=2zi+M17kdNzz0ifOH3g6oZrIYAYHAebbXb5ABAPazc4=; b=us/2bTCWwR+A0IYCVZXV32trpACDodqesVLl0Fco7GW+5MUO/Wsq51va2XdP0iQiOTni Kdpu7WC9FVa+xMuWALmTff+jBjFw7QIFgaU4I0vNZDrOFqPH6kHEj8C7vCt8ZCOrmKnd lgLg90CxEzxsHTU5+2Yi3ZFb8XokZpXpJ6jnt1+3M19bYFCV7hj+6Qrmdslz5nxQeVWg g8HpIfq8BT3Gw9/NUnfRXMAG7IVH4kCPro8ny4mBPXMXZtqADJRFbaZSe1VlPden1iwO V9MkMSoYoHbQSmGkCAabFhVeZJDh58rUbYe0jKmre2j9cXMeGezEl0/2eNrbwnrjF79a vA== Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp04.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp04.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.152]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp03.apple.com with ESMTP id 3aectvf9m8-19 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 18 Aug 2021 15:01:44 -0700 Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.14]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp04.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.9.20210415 64bit (built Apr 15 2021)) with ESMTPS id <0QY2000IC2IVEWK0@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp04.rno.apple.com>; Wed, 18 Aug 2021 15:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from process_milters-daemon.rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.9.20210415 64bit (built Apr 15 2021)) id <0QY200Z002GY6600@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com>; Wed, 18 Aug 2021 15:01:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: 33616c885c4604f46baf2a2556943e2c X-Va-E-CD: d7a15a19566448dcf38cf1432bea6726 X-Va-R-CD: 6e98d7a867131c065fb4f779b5ad5a6f X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: efc2ab9c-1f49-4f8c-8907-2ff9bca8818c X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: 33616c885c4604f46baf2a2556943e2c X-V-E-CD: d7a15a19566448dcf38cf1432bea6726 X-V-R-CD: 6e98d7a867131c065fb4f779b5ad5a6f X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: 4647b36d-0e25-47c0-b0a8-afadb5bb6d74 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-08-18_07:2021-08-17, 2021-08-18 signatures=0 Received: from localhost ([17.192.155.152]) by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.9.20210415 64bit (built Apr 15 2021)) with ESMTPSA id <0QY200ANY2IU8D00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com>; Wed, 18 Aug 2021 15:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 15:01:42 -0700 From: Christoph Paasch To: Erik Auerswald Cc: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net, draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org Message-id: References: <20210815133922.GA18118@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline In-reply-to: <20210815133922.GA18118@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-08-18_07:2021-08-17, 2021-08-18 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Bloat] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-00.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 22:02:27 -0000 Hello Erik, On 08/15/21 - 15:39, Erik Auerswald wrote: > Hi, > > I'd like to thank you for working on a nice I-D describing an interesting > and IMHO useful network measurement metric. > > Since feedback was asked for, I'd like to try and provide constructive > feedback. thanks a lot for your detailed feedback! Please see further inline. > In general, I like the idea of "Round-trips per Minute" (RPM) as a > metric used to characterize (one aspect of) a network. I do think that > introducing this would improve the status quo. Since this RPM definition > comprises a specific way of adding load to the network and measuring a > complex metric, I think it is useful to "standardize" it. > > I do not think RPM can replace all other metrics. This is, in a way, > mentioned in the introduction, where it is suggested to add RPM to > existing measurement platforms. As such I just want to point this out > more explicitely, but do not intend to diminish the RPM idea by this. > In short, I'd say it's complicated. Yes, I fully agree that RPM is not the only metric. It is one among many. If there is a sentiment in our document that sounds like "RPM is the only that matters", please let me know where so we can reword the text. > Bandwidth matters for bulk data transfer, e.g., downloading a huge update > required for playing a multiplayer game online. > > Minimum latency matters for the feasibility of interactive applications, > e.g., controlling a toy car in your room vs. a robotic arm on the ISS > from Earth vs. orbital insertion around Mars from Earth. For a more > mundane use case consider a voice conference. (A good decade ago I > experienced a voice conferencing system running over IP that introduced > over one second of (minimum) latency and therefore was awkward to use.) Wrt to minimum latency: To some extend it is a subset of "RPM". But admittedly, measuring minimum latency on its own is good for debugging purposes and to know what one can get on a network that is not in persistent working conditions. > Expressing 'bufferbloat as a measure of "Round-trips per Minute" (RPM)' > exhibits (at least) two problems: > > 1. A high RPM value is associated with little bufferbloat problems. > > 2. A low RPM value may be caused by high minimum delay instead of > bufferbloat. > > I think that RPM (i.e., under working conditions) measures a network's > usefulness for interactive applications, but not necessarily bufferbloat. You are right and we are definitely misrepresenting this in the text. I filed https://github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/issues/8. If you want, feel free to submit a pull-request otherwise, we will get to the issue in the next weeks. > I do think that RPM is in itself more generally useful than minimum > latency or bandwidth. > > A combination of low minimum latency with low RPM value strongly hints > at bufferbloat. Other combinations are less easily characterized. > > Bufferbloat can still lie in hiding, e.g., when a link with bufferbloat > is not yet the bottleneck, or if the communications end-points are not > yet able to saturate the network inbetween. Thus high bandwidth can > result in high RPM values despite (hidden) bufferbloat. > > The "Measuring is Hard" section mentions additional complications. > > All in all, I do think that "measuring bufferbloat" and "measuring RPM" > should not be used synonymously. The I-D title clearly shows this: > RPM is measuring "Responsiveness under Working Conditions" which may be > affected by bufferbloat, among other potential factors, but is not in > itself bufferbloat. > > Under the assumption that only a single value (performance score) is > considered, I do think that RPM is more generally useful than bandwidth > or idle latency. > > On a meta-level, I think that the word "bufferbloat" is not used according > to a single self-consistent definition in the I-D. Fully agree with all your points above on how we misrepresented the relation between RPM and bufferbloat. > Additionally, I think that the I-D should reference DNS, HTTP/2, and > TLS 1.3, since these protocols are required for implementing the RPM > measurement. The same for JSON, I think. Possibly URL. Yes, we have not given the references & citations enough care. (https://github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/issues/2) > Using "rpm.example" instead of "example.apple.com" would result in shorter > lines for the example JSON. > > "host123.cdn.example" instead of "hostname123.cdnprovider.com" might be > a more appropriate example DNS name. Oups, we forgot to adjust these to a more generic hostname... (https://github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/issues/9) > Adding an informative reference to RFC 2606 / BCP 32 might raise awareness > of the existence of a BCP on example DNS names. > > Please find both a unified diff against the text rendering of the I-D, > and a word diff produced from the unified diff, attached to this email > in order to suggest editorial changes that are intended to improve the > reading experience. They are intended for reading and (possibly partial) > manual application, since the text rendering of an I-D is usually not > the preferred form of editing it. Thanks a lot for these (https://github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/issues/10) Regards, Christoph > > Thanks, > Erik > -- > Always use the right tool for the job. > -- Rob Pike > > > On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 02:41:05PM -0700, Christoph Paasch via Bloat wrote: > > I already posted this to the RPM-list, but the audience here on bloat should > > be interested as well. > > > > > > This is the specification of Apple's responsiveness/RPM test. We believe that it > > would be good for the bufferbloat-effort to have a specification of how to > > quantify the extend of bufferbloat from a user's perspective. Our > > Internet-draft is a first step in that direction and we hope that it will > > kick off some collaboration. > > > > > > Feedback is very welcome! > > > > > > Cheers, > > Christoph > > > > > > ----- Forwarded message from internet-drafts@ietf.org ----- > > > > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > > To: Christoph Paasch , Omer Shapira , Randall Meyer , Stuart Cheshire > > > > Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 09:43:40 -0700 > > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-00.txt > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-00.txt > > has been successfully submitted by Christoph Paasch and posted to the > > IETF repository. > > > > Name: draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness > > Revision: 00 > > Title: Responsiveness under Working Conditions > > Document date: 2021-08-13 > > Group: Individual Submission > > Pages: 12 > > URL: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-00.txt > > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/ > > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness > > > > > > Abstract: > > Bufferbloat has been a long-standing problem on the Internet with > > more than a decade of work on standardizing technical solutions, > > implementations and testing. However, to this date, bufferbloat is > > still a very common problem for the end-users. Everyone "knows" that > > it is "normal" for a video conference to have problems when somebody > > else on the same home-network is watching a 4K movie. > > > > The reason for this problem is not the lack of technical solutions, > > but rather a lack of awareness of the problem-space, and a lack of > > tooling to accurately measure the problem. We believe that exposing > > the problem of bufferbloat to the end-user by measuring the end- > > users' experience at a high level will help to create the necessary > > awareness. > > > > This document is a first attempt at specifying a measurement > > methodology to evaluate bufferbloat the way common users are > > experiencing it today, using today's most frequently used protocols > > and mechanisms to accurately measure the user-experience. We also > > provide a way to express the bufferbloat as a measure of "Round-trips > > per minute" (RPM) to have a more intuitive way for the users to > > understand the notion of bufferbloat. > > > > > > > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > > _______________________________________________ > > Bloat mailing list > > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > --- draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-00.txt 2021-08-15 12:01:01.213813125 +0200 > +++ draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-00-ea.txt 2021-08-15 15:08:08.013416074 +0200 > @@ -17,7 +17,7 @@ > > Bufferbloat has been a long-standing problem on the Internet with > more than a decade of work on standardizing technical solutions, > - implementations and testing. However, to this date, bufferbloat is > + implementations, and testing. However, to this date, bufferbloat is > still a very common problem for the end-users. Everyone "knows" that > it is "normal" for a video conference to have problems when somebody > else on the same home-network is watching a 4K movie. > @@ -33,8 +33,8 @@ > methodology to evaluate bufferbloat the way common users are > experiencing it today, using today's most frequently used protocols > and mechanisms to accurately measure the user-experience. We also > - provide a way to express the bufferbloat as a measure of "Round-trips > - per minute" (RPM) to have a more intuitive way for the users to > + provide a way to express bufferbloat as a measure of "Round-trips > + per Minute" (RPM) to have a more intuitive way for the users to > understand the notion of bufferbloat. > > Status of This Memo > @@ -81,14 +81,14 @@ > Table of Contents > > 1. Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 > - 2. Measuring is hard . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 > + 2. Measuring is Hard . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 > 3. Goals . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 > 4. Measuring Responsiveness . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 > 4.1. Working Conditions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 > 4.1.1. Parallel vs Sequential Uplink and Downlink . . . . . 6 > - 4.1.2. From single-flow to multi-flow . . . . . . . . . . . 7 > - 4.1.3. Reaching saturation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 > - 4.1.4. Final algorithm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 > + 4.1.2. From Single-flow to Multi-flow . . . . . . . . . . . 7 > + 4.1.3. Reaching Saturation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 > + 4.1.4. Final Algorithm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 > 4.2. Measuring Responsiveness . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 > 4.2.1. Aggregating Round-trips per Minute . . . . . . . . . 9 > 4.2.2. Statistical Confidence . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 > @@ -103,8 +103,8 @@ > > For many years, bufferbloat has been known as an unfortunately common > issue in todays networks [Bufferbloat]. Solutions like FQ-codel > - [RFC8289] or PIE [RFC8033] have been standardized and are to some > - extend widely implemented. Nevertheless, users still suffer from > + [RFC8290] or PIE [RFC8033] have been standardized and are to some > + extent widely implemented. Nevertheless, users still suffer from > bufferbloat. > > > @@ -129,7 +129,7 @@ > bufferbloat problem. > > We believe that it is necessary to create a standardized way for > - measuring the extend of bufferbloat in a network and express it to > + measuring the extent of bufferbloat in a network and express it to > the user in a user-friendly way. This should help existing > measurement tools to add a bufferbloat measurement to their set of > metrics. It will also allow to raise the awareness to the problem > @@ -144,10 +144,10 @@ > classification for those protocols is very common. It is thus very > important to use those protocols for the measurements to avoid > focusing on use-cases that are not actually affecting the end-user. > - Finally, we propose to use "round-trips per minute" as a metric to > - express the extend of bufferbloat. > + Finally, we propose to use "Round-trips per Minute" as a metric to > + express the extent of bufferbloat. > > -2. Measuring is hard > +2. Measuring is Hard > > There are several challenges around measuring bufferbloat accurately > on the Internet. These challenges are due to different factors. > @@ -155,7 +155,7 @@ > problem space, and the reproducibility of the measurement. > > It is well-known that transparent TCP proxies are widely deployed on > - port 443 and/or port 80, while less common on other ports. Thus, > + port 443 and/or port 80, while less commonly on other ports. Thus, > choice of the port-number to measure bufferbloat has a significant > influence on the result. Other factors are the protocols being used. > TCP and UDP traffic may take a largely different path on the Internet > @@ -186,17 +186,17 @@ > measurement. It seems that it's best to avoid extending the duration > of the test beyond what's needed. > > - The problem space around the bufferbloat is huge. Traditionally, one > + The problem space around bufferbloat is huge. Traditionally, one > thinks of bufferbloat happening on the routers and switches of the > Internet. Thus, simply measuring bufferbloat at the transport layer > would be sufficient. However, the networking stacks of the clients > and servers can also experience huge amounts of bufferbloat. Data > sitting in TCP sockets or waiting in the application to be scheduled > for sending causes artificial latency, which affects user-experience > - the same way the "traditional" bufferbloat does. > + the same way "traditional" bufferbloat does. > > Finally, measuring bufferbloat requires us to fill the buffers of the > - bottleneck and when buffer occupancy is at its peak, the latency > + bottleneck, and when buffer occupancy is at its peak, the latency > measurement needs to be done. Achieving this in a reliable and > reproducible way is not easy. First, one needs to ensure that > buffers are actually full for a sustained period of time to allow for > @@ -250,15 +250,15 @@ > bufferbloat. > > 4. Finally, in order for this measurement to be user-friendly to a > - wide audience it is important that such a measurement finishes > - within a short time-frame and short being anything below 20 > + wide audience, it is important that such a measurement finishes > + within a short time-frame with short being anything below 20 > seconds. > > 4. Measuring Responsiveness > > The ability to reliably measure the responsiveness under typical > working conditions is predicated by the ability to reliably put the > - network in a state representative of the said conditions. Once the > + network in a state representative of said conditions. Once the > network has reached the required state, its responsiveness can be > measured. The following explains how the former and the latter are > achieved. > @@ -270,7 +270,7 @@ > experiencing ingress and egress flows that are similar to those when > used by humans in the typical day-to-day pattern. > > - While any network can be put momentarily into working condition by > + While any network can be put momentarily into working conditions by > the means of a single HTTP transaction, taking measurements requires > maintaining such conditions over sufficient time. Thus, measuring > the network responsiveness in a consistent way depends on our ability > @@ -286,7 +286,7 @@ > way to achieve this is by creating multiple large bulk data-transfers > in either downstream or upstream direction. Similar to conventional > speed-test applications that also create a varying number of streams > - to measure throughput. Working-conditions does the same. It also > + to measure throughput. Working conditions does the same. It also > requires a way to detect when the network is in a persistent working > condition, called "saturation". This can be achieved by monitoring > the instantaneous goodput over time. When the goodput stops > @@ -298,7 +298,7 @@ > o Should not waste traffic, since the user may be paying for it > > o Should finish within a short time-frame to avoid impacting other > - users on the same network and/or experience varying conditions > + users on the same network and/or experiencing varying conditions > > 4.1.1. Parallel vs Sequential Uplink and Downlink > > @@ -308,8 +308,8 @@ > upstream) or the routing in the ISPs. Users sending data to an > Internet service will fill the bottleneck on the upstream path to the > server and thus expose a potential for bufferbloat to happen at this > - bottleneck. On the downlink direction any download from an Internet > - service will encounter a bottleneck and thus exposes another > + bottleneck. In the downlink direction any download from an Internet > + service will encounter a bottleneck and thus expose another > potential for bufferbloat. Thus, when measuring responsiveness under > working conditions it is important to consider both, the upstream and > the downstream bufferbloat. This opens the door to measure both > @@ -322,13 +322,16 @@ > seconds of test per direction, while parallel measurement will allow > for 20 seconds of testing in both directions. > > - However, a number caveats come with measuring in parallel: - Half- > - duplex links may not expose uplink and downlink bufferbloat: A half- > - duplex link may not allow during parallel measurement to saturate > - both the uplink and the downlink direction. Thus, bufferbloat in > - either of the directions may not be exposed during parallel > - measurement. - Debuggability of the results becomes more obscure: > - During parallel measurement it is impossible to differentiate on > + However, a number caveats come with measuring in parallel: > + > + - Half-duplex links may not expose uplink and downlink bufferbloat: > + A half-duplex link may not allow to saturate both the uplink > + and the downlink direction during parallel measurement. Thus, > + bufferbloat in either of the directions may not be exposed during > + parallel measurement. > + > + - Debuggability of the results becomes more obscure: > + During parallel measurement it is impossible to differentiate on > > > > @@ -338,26 +341,26 @@ > Internet-Draft Responsiveness under Working Conditions August 2021 > > > - whether the bufferbloat happens in the uplink or the downlink > - direction. > + whether the bufferbloat happens in the uplink or the downlink > + direction. > > -4.1.2. From single-flow to multi-flow > +4.1.2. From Single-flow to Multi-flow > > - As described in RFC 6349, a single TCP connection may not be > + As described in [RFC6349], a single TCP connection may not be > sufficient to saturate a path between a client and a server. On a > high-BDP network, traditional TCP window-size constraints of 4MB are > often not sufficient to fill the pipe. Additionally, traditional > - loss-based TCP congestion control algorithms aggressively reacts to > + loss-based TCP congestion control algorithms aggressively react to > packet-loss by reducing the congestion window. This reaction will > - reduce the queuing in the network, and thus "artificially" make the > - bufferbloat appear lesser. > + reduce the queuing in the network, and thus "artificially" make > + bufferbloat appear less of a problem. > > - The goal of the measurement is to keep the network as busy as > - possible in a sustained and persistent way. Thus, using multiple TCP > + The goal is to keep the network as busy as possible in a sustained > + and persistent way during the measurement. Thus, using multiple TCP > connections is needed for a sustained bufferbloat by gradually adding > - TCP flows until saturation is needed. > + TCP flows until saturation is reached. > > -4.1.3. Reaching saturation > +4.1.3. Reaching Saturation > > It is best to detect when saturation has been reached so that the > measurement of responsiveness can start with the confidence that the > @@ -367,8 +370,8 @@ > buffers are completely filled. Thus, this depends highly on the > congestion control that is being deployed on the sender-side. > Congestion control algorithms like BBR may reach high throughput > - without causing bufferbloat. (because the bandwidth-detection portion > - of BBR is effectively seeking the bottleneck capacity) > + without causing bufferbloat (because the bandwidth-detection portion > + of BBR is effectively seeking the bottleneck capacity). > > It is advised to rather use loss-based congestion controls like Cubic > to "reliably" ensure that the buffers are filled. > @@ -379,7 +382,7 @@ > packet-loss or ECN-marks signaling a congestion or even a full buffer > of the bottleneck link. > > -4.1.4. Final algorithm > +4.1.4. Final Algorithm > > The following is a proposal for an algorithm to reach saturation of a > network by using HTTP/2 upload (POST) or download (GET) requests of > @@ -404,7 +407,7 @@ > throughput will remain stable. In the latter case, this means that > saturation has been reached and - more importantly - is stable. > > - In detail, the steps of the algorithm are the following > + In detail, the steps of the algorithm are the following: > > o Create 4 load-bearing connections > > @@ -453,7 +456,7 @@ > the different stages of a separate network transaction as well as > measuring on the load-bearing connections themselves. > > - Two aspects are being measured with this approach : > + Two aspects are being measured with this approach: > > 1. How the network handles new connections and their different > stages (DNS-request, TCP-handshake, TLS-handshake, HTTP/2 > @@ -463,19 +466,19 @@ > > 2. How the network and the client/server networking stack handles > the latency on the load-bearing connections themselves. E.g., > - Smart queuing techniques on the bottleneck will allow to keep the > + smart queuing techniques on the bottleneck will allow to keep the > latency within a reasonable limit in the network and buffer- > - reducing techniques like TCP_NOTSENT_LOWAT makes sure the client > + reducing techniques like TCP_NOTSENT_LOWAT make sure the client > and server TCP-stack is not a source of significant latency. > > To measure the former, we send a DNS-request, establish a TCP- > connection on port 443, establish a TLS-context using TLS1.3 and send > - an HTTP2 GET request for an object of a single byte large. This > + an HTTP/2 GET request for an object the size of a single byte. This > measurement will be repeated multiple times for accuracy. Each of > these stages allows to collect a single latency measurement that can > then be factored into the responsiveness computation. > > - To measure the latter, on the load-bearing connections (that uses > + To measure the latter, on the load-bearing connections (that use > HTTP/2) a GET request is multiplexed. This GET request is for a > 1-byte object. This allows to measure the end-to-end latency on the > connections that are using the network at full speed. > @@ -492,10 +495,10 @@ > an equal weight to each of these measurements. > > Finally, the resulting latency needs to be exposed to the users. > - Users have been trained to accept metrics that have a notion of "The > + Users have been trained to accept metrics that have a notion of "the > higher the better". Latency measuring in units of seconds however is > "the lower the better". Thus, converting the latency measurement to > - a frequency allows using the familiar notion of "The higher the > + a frequency allows using the familiar notion of "the higher the > better". The term frequency has a very technical connotation. What > we are effectively measuring is the number of round-trips from the > > @@ -513,7 +516,7 @@ > which is a wink to the "revolutions per minute" that we are used to > in cars. > > - Thus, our unit of measure is "Round-trip per Minute" (RPM) that > + Thus, our unit of measure is "Round-trips per Minute" (RPM) that > expresses responsiveness under working conditions. > > 4.2.2. Statistical Confidence > @@ -527,13 +530,13 @@ > 5. Protocol Specification > > By using standard protocols that are most commonly used by end-users, > - no new protocol needs to be specified. However, both client and > + no new protocol needs to be specified. However, both clients and > servers need capabilities to execute this kind of measurement as well > - as a standard to flow to provision the client with the necessary > + as a standard to follow to provision the client with the necessary > information. > > First, the capabilities of both the client and the server: It is > - expected that both hosts support HTTP/2 over TLS 1.3. That the > + expected that both hosts support HTTP/2 over TLS 1.3, and that the > client is able to send a GET-request and a POST. The server needs > the ability to serve both of these HTTP commands. Further, the > server endpoint is accessible through a hostname that can be resolved > @@ -546,13 +549,13 @@ > 1. A config URL/response: This is the configuration file/format used > by the client. It's a simple JSON file format that points the > client at the various URLs mentioned below. All of the fields > - are required except "test_endpoint". If the service-procier can > + are required except "test_endpoint". If the service-provider can > pin all of the requests for a test run to a specific node in the > service (for a particular run), they can specify that node's name > in the "test_endpoint" field. It's preferred that pinning of > some sort is available. This is to ensure the measurement is > against the same paths and not switching hosts during a test run > - (ie moving from near POP A to near POP B) Sample content of this > + (i.e., moving from near POP A to near POP B). Sample content of this > JSON would be: > > > @@ -577,7 +580,7 @@ > > 3. A "large" URL/response: This needs to serve a status code of 200 > and a body size of at least 8GB. The body can be bigger, and > - will need to grow as network speeds increases over time. The > + will need to grow as network speeds increase over time. The > actual body content is irrelevant. The client will probably > never completely download the object. > > @@ -618,16 +621,19 @@ > Internet-Draft Responsiveness under Working Conditions August 2021 > > > + [RFC6349] ... > + > [RFC8033] Pan, R., Natarajan, P., Baker, F., and G. White, > "Proportional Integral Controller Enhanced (PIE): A > Lightweight Control Scheme to Address the Bufferbloat > Problem", RFC 8033, DOI 10.17487/RFC8033, February 2017, > . > > - [RFC8289] Nichols, K., Jacobson, V., McGregor, A., Ed., and J. > - Iyengar, Ed., "Controlled Delay Active Queue Management", > - RFC 8289, DOI 10.17487/RFC8289, January 2018, > - . > + [RFC8290] Hoeiland-Joergensen, T., McKenney, P., Taht, D., Ed., and > + Gettys, J., "The Flow Queue CoDel Packet Scheduler and > + Active Queue Management Algorithm", RFC 8290, > + DOI 10.17487/RFC8290, January 2018, > + . > > Authors' Addresses > > [--- draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-00.txt-]{+++ draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-00-ea.txt+} 2021-08-15 [-12:01:01.213813125-] {+15:08:08.013416074+} +0200 > @@ -17,7 +17,7 @@ > > Bufferbloat has been a long-standing problem on the Internet with > more than a decade of work on standardizing technical solutions, > [-implementations-] > {+implementations,+} and testing. However, to this date, bufferbloat is > still a very common problem for the end-users. Everyone "knows" that > it is "normal" for a video conference to have problems when somebody > else on the same home-network is watching a 4K movie. > @@ -33,8 +33,8 @@ > methodology to evaluate bufferbloat the way common users are > experiencing it today, using today's most frequently used protocols > and mechanisms to accurately measure the user-experience. We also > provide a way to express [-the-] bufferbloat as a measure of "Round-trips > per [-minute"-] {+Minute"+} (RPM) to have a more intuitive way for the users to > understand the notion of bufferbloat. > > Status of This Memo > @@ -81,14 +81,14 @@ > Table of Contents > > 1. Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 > 2. Measuring is [-hard-] {+Hard+} . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 > 3. Goals . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 > 4. Measuring Responsiveness . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 > 4.1. Working Conditions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 > 4.1.1. Parallel vs Sequential Uplink and Downlink . . . . . 6 > 4.1.2. From [-single-flow-] {+Single-flow+} to [-multi-flow-] {+Multi-flow+} . . . . . . . . . . . 7 > 4.1.3. Reaching [-saturation-] {+Saturation+} . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 > 4.1.4. Final [-algorithm-] {+Algorithm+} . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 > 4.2. Measuring Responsiveness . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 > 4.2.1. Aggregating Round-trips per Minute . . . . . . . . . 9 > 4.2.2. Statistical Confidence . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 > @@ -103,8 +103,8 @@ > > For many years, bufferbloat has been known as an unfortunately common > issue in todays networks [Bufferbloat]. Solutions like FQ-codel > [-[RFC8289]-] > {+[RFC8290]+} or PIE [RFC8033] have been standardized and are to some > [-extend-] > {+extent+} widely implemented. Nevertheless, users still suffer from > bufferbloat. > > > @@ -129,7 +129,7 @@ > bufferbloat problem. > > We believe that it is necessary to create a standardized way for > measuring the [-extend-] {+extent+} of bufferbloat in a network and express it to > the user in a user-friendly way. This should help existing > measurement tools to add a bufferbloat measurement to their set of > metrics. It will also allow to raise the awareness to the problem > @@ -144,10 +144,10 @@ > classification for those protocols is very common. It is thus very > important to use those protocols for the measurements to avoid > focusing on use-cases that are not actually affecting the end-user. > Finally, we propose to use [-"round-trips-] {+"Round-trips+} per [-minute"-] {+Minute"+} as a metric to > express the [-extend-] {+extent+} of bufferbloat. > > 2. Measuring is [-hard-] {+Hard+} > > There are several challenges around measuring bufferbloat accurately > on the Internet. These challenges are due to different factors. > @@ -155,7 +155,7 @@ > problem space, and the reproducibility of the measurement. > > It is well-known that transparent TCP proxies are widely deployed on > port 443 and/or port 80, while less [-common-] {+commonly+} on other ports. Thus, > choice of the port-number to measure bufferbloat has a significant > influence on the result. Other factors are the protocols being used. > TCP and UDP traffic may take a largely different path on the Internet > @@ -186,17 +186,17 @@ > measurement. It seems that it's best to avoid extending the duration > of the test beyond what's needed. > > The problem space around [-the-] bufferbloat is huge. Traditionally, one > thinks of bufferbloat happening on the routers and switches of the > Internet. Thus, simply measuring bufferbloat at the transport layer > would be sufficient. However, the networking stacks of the clients > and servers can also experience huge amounts of bufferbloat. Data > sitting in TCP sockets or waiting in the application to be scheduled > for sending causes artificial latency, which affects user-experience > the same way [-the-] "traditional" bufferbloat does. > > Finally, measuring bufferbloat requires us to fill the buffers of the > [-bottleneck-] > {+bottleneck,+} and when buffer occupancy is at its peak, the latency > measurement needs to be done. Achieving this in a reliable and > reproducible way is not easy. First, one needs to ensure that > buffers are actually full for a sustained period of time to allow for > @@ -250,15 +250,15 @@ > bufferbloat. > > 4. Finally, in order for this measurement to be user-friendly to a > wide [-audience-] {+audience,+} it is important that such a measurement finishes > within a short time-frame [-and-] {+with+} short being anything below 20 > seconds. > > 4. Measuring Responsiveness > > The ability to reliably measure the responsiveness under typical > working conditions is predicated by the ability to reliably put the > network in a state representative of [-the-] said conditions. Once the > network has reached the required state, its responsiveness can be > measured. The following explains how the former and the latter are > achieved. > @@ -270,7 +270,7 @@ > experiencing ingress and egress flows that are similar to those when > used by humans in the typical day-to-day pattern. > > While any network can be put momentarily into working [-condition-] {+conditions+} by > the means of a single HTTP transaction, taking measurements requires > maintaining such conditions over sufficient time. Thus, measuring > the network responsiveness in a consistent way depends on our ability > @@ -286,7 +286,7 @@ > way to achieve this is by creating multiple large bulk data-transfers > in either downstream or upstream direction. Similar to conventional > speed-test applications that also create a varying number of streams > to measure throughput. [-Working-conditions-] {+Working conditions+} does the same. It also > requires a way to detect when the network is in a persistent working > condition, called "saturation". This can be achieved by monitoring > the instantaneous goodput over time. When the goodput stops > @@ -298,7 +298,7 @@ > o Should not waste traffic, since the user may be paying for it > > o Should finish within a short time-frame to avoid impacting other > users on the same network and/or [-experience-] {+experiencing+} varying conditions > > 4.1.1. Parallel vs Sequential Uplink and Downlink > > @@ -308,8 +308,8 @@ > upstream) or the routing in the ISPs. Users sending data to an > Internet service will fill the bottleneck on the upstream path to the > server and thus expose a potential for bufferbloat to happen at this > bottleneck. [-On-] {+In+} the downlink direction any download from an Internet > service will encounter a bottleneck and thus [-exposes-] {+expose+} another > potential for bufferbloat. Thus, when measuring responsiveness under > working conditions it is important to consider both, the upstream and > the downstream bufferbloat. This opens the door to measure both > @@ -322,13 +322,16 @@ > seconds of test per direction, while parallel measurement will allow > for 20 seconds of testing in both directions. > > However, a number caveats come with measuring in parallel: > > - [-Half- > duplex-] {+Half-duplex+} links may not expose uplink and downlink bufferbloat: > A [-half- > duplex-] {+half-duplex+} link may not allow [-during parallel measurement-] to saturate both the uplink > and the downlink [-direction.-] {+direction during parallel measurement.+} Thus, > bufferbloat in either of the directions may not be exposed during > parallel measurement. > > - Debuggability of the results becomes more obscure: > During parallel measurement it is impossible to differentiate on > > > > @@ -338,26 +341,26 @@ > Internet-Draft Responsiveness under Working Conditions August 2021 > > > whether the bufferbloat happens in the uplink or the downlink > direction. > > 4.1.2. From [-single-flow-] {+Single-flow+} to [-multi-flow-] {+Multi-flow+} > > As described in [-RFC 6349,-] {+[RFC6349],+} a single TCP connection may not be > sufficient to saturate a path between a client and a server. On a > high-BDP network, traditional TCP window-size constraints of 4MB are > often not sufficient to fill the pipe. Additionally, traditional > loss-based TCP congestion control algorithms aggressively [-reacts-] {+react+} to > packet-loss by reducing the congestion window. This reaction will > reduce the queuing in the network, and thus "artificially" make [-the-] > bufferbloat appear [-lesser.-] {+less of a problem.+} > > The goal [-of the measurement-] is to keep the network as busy as possible in a sustained > and persistent [-way.-] {+way during the measurement.+} Thus, using multiple TCP > connections is needed for a sustained bufferbloat by gradually adding > TCP flows until saturation is [-needed.-] {+reached.+} > > 4.1.3. Reaching [-saturation-] {+Saturation+} > > It is best to detect when saturation has been reached so that the > measurement of responsiveness can start with the confidence that the > @@ -367,8 +370,8 @@ > buffers are completely filled. Thus, this depends highly on the > congestion control that is being deployed on the sender-side. > Congestion control algorithms like BBR may reach high throughput > without causing [-bufferbloat.-] {+bufferbloat+} (because the bandwidth-detection portion > of BBR is effectively seeking the bottleneck [-capacity)-] {+capacity).+} > > It is advised to rather use loss-based congestion controls like Cubic > to "reliably" ensure that the buffers are filled. > @@ -379,7 +382,7 @@ > packet-loss or ECN-marks signaling a congestion or even a full buffer > of the bottleneck link. > > 4.1.4. Final [-algorithm-] {+Algorithm+} > > The following is a proposal for an algorithm to reach saturation of a > network by using HTTP/2 upload (POST) or download (GET) requests of > @@ -404,7 +407,7 @@ > throughput will remain stable. In the latter case, this means that > saturation has been reached and - more importantly - is stable. > > In detail, the steps of the algorithm are the [-following-] {+following:+} > > o Create 4 load-bearing connections > > @@ -453,7 +456,7 @@ > the different stages of a separate network transaction as well as > measuring on the load-bearing connections themselves. > > Two aspects are being measured with this [-approach :-] {+approach:+} > > 1. How the network handles new connections and their different > stages (DNS-request, TCP-handshake, TLS-handshake, HTTP/2 > @@ -463,19 +466,19 @@ > > 2. How the network and the client/server networking stack handles > the latency on the load-bearing connections themselves. E.g., > [-Smart-] > {+smart+} queuing techniques on the bottleneck will allow to keep the > latency within a reasonable limit in the network and buffer- > reducing techniques like TCP_NOTSENT_LOWAT [-makes-] {+make+} sure the client > and server TCP-stack is not a source of significant latency. > > To measure the former, we send a DNS-request, establish a TCP- > connection on port 443, establish a TLS-context using TLS1.3 and send > an [-HTTP2-] {+HTTP/2+} GET request for an object {+the size+} of a single [-byte large.-] {+byte.+} This > measurement will be repeated multiple times for accuracy. Each of > these stages allows to collect a single latency measurement that can > then be factored into the responsiveness computation. > > To measure the latter, on the load-bearing connections (that [-uses-] {+use+} > HTTP/2) a GET request is multiplexed. This GET request is for a > 1-byte object. This allows to measure the end-to-end latency on the > connections that are using the network at full speed. > @@ -492,10 +495,10 @@ > an equal weight to each of these measurements. > > Finally, the resulting latency needs to be exposed to the users. > Users have been trained to accept metrics that have a notion of [-"The-] {+"the+} > higher the better". Latency measuring in units of seconds however is > "the lower the better". Thus, converting the latency measurement to > a frequency allows using the familiar notion of [-"The-] {+"the+} higher the > better". The term frequency has a very technical connotation. What > we are effectively measuring is the number of round-trips from the > > @@ -513,7 +516,7 @@ > which is a wink to the "revolutions per minute" that we are used to > in cars. > > Thus, our unit of measure is [-"Round-trip-] {+"Round-trips+} per Minute" (RPM) that > expresses responsiveness under working conditions. > > 4.2.2. Statistical Confidence > @@ -527,13 +530,13 @@ > 5. Protocol Specification > > By using standard protocols that are most commonly used by end-users, > no new protocol needs to be specified. However, both [-client-] {+clients+} and > servers need capabilities to execute this kind of measurement as well > as a standard to [-flow-] {+follow+} to provision the client with the necessary > information. > > First, the capabilities of both the client and the server: It is > expected that both hosts support HTTP/2 over TLS [-1.3. That-] {+1.3, and that+} the > client is able to send a GET-request and a POST. The server needs > the ability to serve both of these HTTP commands. Further, the > server endpoint is accessible through a hostname that can be resolved > @@ -546,13 +549,13 @@ > 1. A config URL/response: This is the configuration file/format used > by the client. It's a simple JSON file format that points the > client at the various URLs mentioned below. All of the fields > are required except "test_endpoint". If the [-service-procier-] {+service-provider+} can > pin all of the requests for a test run to a specific node in the > service (for a particular run), they can specify that node's name > in the "test_endpoint" field. It's preferred that pinning of > some sort is available. This is to ensure the measurement is > against the same paths and not switching hosts during a test run > [-(ie-] > {+(i.e.,+} moving from near POP A to near POP [-B)-] {+B).+} Sample content of this > JSON would be: > > > @@ -577,7 +580,7 @@ > > 3. A "large" URL/response: This needs to serve a status code of 200 > and a body size of at least 8GB. The body can be bigger, and > will need to grow as network speeds [-increases-] {+increase+} over time. The > actual body content is irrelevant. The client will probably > never completely download the object. > > @@ -618,16 +621,19 @@ > Internet-Draft Responsiveness under Working Conditions August 2021 > > > {+[RFC6349] ...+} > > [RFC8033] Pan, R., Natarajan, P., Baker, F., and G. White, > "Proportional Integral Controller Enhanced (PIE): A > Lightweight Control Scheme to Address the Bufferbloat > Problem", RFC 8033, DOI 10.17487/RFC8033, February 2017, > . > > [-[RFC8289] Nichols, K., Jacobson, V., McGregor, A.,-] > > {+[RFC8290] Hoeiland-Joergensen, T., McKenney, P., Taht, D.,+} Ed., and [-J. > Iyengar, Ed., "Controlled Delay-] > {+Gettys, J., "The Flow Queue CoDel Packet Scheduler and+} > Active Queue [-Management",-] {+Management Algorithm",+} RFC [-8289,-] {+8290,+} > DOI [-10.17487/RFC8289,-] {+10.17487/RFC8290,+} January 2018, > [-.-] > {+.+} > > Authors' Addresses > From nobody Wed Aug 18 21:16:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99F403A15A0 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2021 21:16:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q0TMaaRXpfaY for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2021 21:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta1.chinamobile.com (cmccmta1.chinamobile.com [221.176.66.79]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 015E73A159C for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2021 21:16:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spf.mail.chinamobile.com (unknown[172.16.121.17]) by rmmx-syy-dmz-app02-12002 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee2611ddb1e8cf-cade1; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 12:16:30 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee2611ddb1e8cf-cade1 X-RM-TagInfo: emlType=0 X-RM-SPAM-FLAG: 00000000 Received: from cmccPC (unknown[223.69.29.81]) by rmsmtp-syy-appsvr09-12009 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee9611ddb1c2ea-905b4; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 12:16:30 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee9611ddb1c2ea-905b4 From: "qinfengwei" To: "'Martin Duke'" , "'IETF IPPM WG'" References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 12:16:27 +0800 Message-ID: <004d01d794b0$fce85b00$f6b91100$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004E_01D794F4.0B0B9B00" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AQHXj6gXYFLOXr8EnUa/cGcJ/ISGV6t6QYUA Content-Language: zh-cn Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgUkZDIDgzMjEgYW5kIDg4ODk=?= X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 04:16:40 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01D794F4.0B0B9B00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Martin and WG, We found RFC8321 is very useful and applied in our network = including the transport network and data center. Our experience shows RFC8321 is mature. I would prefer the option 1, and elevate RFC 8321/8889 to PS. =20 =20 =20 Thanks, Fengwei Qin =20 =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] = =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Martin Duke =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2021=E5=B9=B48=E6=9C=8813=E6=97=A5 = 02:26 =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: IETF IPPM WG =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 =20 Hello IPPM, =20 (with AD hat on) =20 The IESG is currently considering https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark-08 which is the implementation of RFC 8321 = and 8889 = techniques in an IPv6 = framework. IIUC, this is very much how things are "supposed to work" -- = measurement definitions and methodology are done by IPPM, and the = protocol-specific instantiations are in the respective working groups. =20 However, there are complications in that 8321 and 8889 are Experimental = RFCs, and the ipv6-alt-mark draft is a Proposed Standard. This has = resulted in text from 8321/8889 going into ipv6-alt-mark so that it can = be elevated to PS. I'm told that, if the status quo holds, other drafts = will reference ipv6-alt-mark to avoid a downref. This seems suboptimal. =20 I would prefer that we take one of the two following actions: 1) If the WG has consensus that we are comfortable that there is enough = experience with 8321 and/or 8889 to elevate them to PS, I can initiate a = document action to change their status. =20 2) If there is no such consensus, ipv6-alt-mark should be Experimental. =20 In either case, the draft can probably lose some of the duplicate text. =20 Logically, there is a third option -- that the bits of the RFCs copied = in the draft are mature enough to be a standard, but that the others = aren't. Though I'm not an expert, I doubt this is the case. But if = people believe it to be true, we'll have to come up with new options. =20 I would be grateful for the working group's thoughts about these = documents and the ideas therein. Is it reasonable for people to read and = reflect on this by 26 August (2 weeks from today?) =20 Thanks, Martin ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01D794F4.0B0B9B00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Martin and WG,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 We found RFC8321 is = very useful and applied in our network including the transport network = and data center.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Our experience shows = RFC8321 is mature.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I would prefer the = option 1, and elevate RFC 8321/8889 to PS.

 

 

 

Thanks,

Fengwei Qin

 

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] = =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 = Martin = Duke
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2021=E5=B9=B48=E6=9C=8813=E6=97=A5 02:26
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: IETF IPPM = WG
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [ippm] RFC 8321 and = 8889

 

Hello = IPPM,

 

(with AD hat = on)

 

The IESG is currently = considering

which is the implementation of RFC 8321 and 8889 techniques = in an IPv6 framework. IIUC, this is very much how things are = "supposed to work" -- measurement definitions and methodology = are done by IPPM, and the protocol-specific instantiations are in the = respective working groups.

 

However, there are complications in = that 8321 and 8889 are Experimental RFCs, and the ipv6-alt-mark draft is = a Proposed Standard. This has resulted in text from 8321/8889 going into = ipv6-alt-mark so that it can be elevated to PS. I'm told that, if the = status quo holds, other drafts will reference ipv6-alt-mark to avoid a = downref. This seems suboptimal.

 

I would prefer that we take one = of the two following actions:

1) If the WG has consensus that we = are comfortable that there is enough experience with 8321 and/or 8889 to = elevate them to PS, I can initiate a document action to change their = status.

 

2) If there is no such consensus, = ipv6-alt-mark should be Experimental.

 

In either case, the draft can = probably lose some of the duplicate = text.

 

Logically, there is a third option = -- that the bits of the RFCs copied in the draft are mature enough to be = a standard, but that the others aren't. Though I'm not an expert, I = doubt this is the case. But if people believe it to be true, we'll have = to come up with new options.

 

I would be grateful for the working = group's thoughts about these documents and the ideas therein. Is it = reasonable for people to read and reflect on this by 26 August (2 weeks = from today?)

 

Thanks,

Martin

------=_NextPart_000_004E_01D794F4.0B0B9B00-- From nobody Thu Aug 19 00:17:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 783013A0EA5; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 00:17:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3T77O0N_BduF; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 00:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw1.uni-kl.de (mailgw1.uni-kl.de [IPv6:2001:638:208:120::220]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4FBD3A0EA0; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 00:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sushi.unix-ag.uni-kl.de (sushi.unix-ag.uni-kl.de [IPv6:2001:638:208:ef34:0:ff:fe00:65]) by mailgw1.uni-kl.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8+deb8u2) with ESMTP id 17J7HYuf153682 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 19 Aug 2021 09:17:34 +0200 Received: from sushi.unix-ag.uni-kl.de (ip6-localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sushi.unix-ag.uni-kl.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4+deb7u1) with ESMTP id 17J7HYJQ004991 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 19 Aug 2021 09:17:34 +0200 Received: (from auerswal@localhost) by sushi.unix-ag.uni-kl.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id 17J7HYwq004990; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 09:17:34 +0200 Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 09:17:34 +0200 From: Erik Auerswald To: Christoph Paasch Cc: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net, draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org Message-ID: <20210819071734.GA3936@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> References: <20210815133922.GA18118@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Author: Erik Auerswald User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Bloat] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-00.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 07:17:48 -0000 Hello Christoph, On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 03:01:42PM -0700, Christoph Paasch wrote: > On 08/15/21 - 15:39, Erik Auerswald wrote: > > [...] > > I do not think RPM can replace all other metrics. This is, in a way, > > mentioned in the introduction, where it is suggested to add RPM to > > existing measurement platforms. As such I just want to point this out > > more explicitely, but do not intend to diminish the RPM idea by this. > > In short, I'd say it's complicated. > > Yes, I fully agree that RPM is not the only metric. It is one among > many. If there is a sentiment in our document that sounds like "RPM > is the only that matters", please let me know where so we can reword > the text. Regarding just this, in section 3 (Goals), item 3 (User-friendliness), the I-D states that '[u]sers commonly look for a single "score" of their performance.' This can lead to the impression that RPM is intended to provide this single score. I do think that RPM seems more generally useful than either idle latency or maximum bandwidth, but for a more technically minded audience, all three provide useful information to get an impression of the usefulness of a network for different applications. Thanks, Erik -- Thinking doesn't guarantee that we won't make mistakes. But not thinking guarantees that we will. -- Leslie Lamport From nobody Thu Aug 19 05:23:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5782F3A11DB for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 05:23:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lk0gGbWM4QNc for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 05:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12f.google.com (mail-lf1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 693543A11D9 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 05:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id i9so12503387lfg.10 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 05:23:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=01R2FuWWgqhDv/DJoX85TpkLrqRW48aPkyF0IBFGfyc=; b=uF74V3lQ0EwkKvlIMVYuvPRSsAbKJCINV6mrBag2UFBeiubsTUsAfkbXVNhgoD15iw M5uoLobXb7RsoZjnPWDPtOMfh90OJUKCcLEZ4sLj83aO2YDO6/QZ2Re8MT/54sBT0vJ9 prqx3SeQ1pcf3dMxjPqKr8cUhV7UXFavO0Y2rH/VAd2dQGqjRf2PYHmfiTwNjcBMoJVu EKBxK9YRhRkXP6HBvCowjdG7eiBoD59ECMAXp/DUuFQD0Y9cH/2f/FutuHAVdKAGaUjV R19JJASlSKHkzaxlqA1RqxASAhln6fGr0E4u54JtYuBrH0Ppzd+6FqocZd+wlPoiFT63 n27g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=01R2FuWWgqhDv/DJoX85TpkLrqRW48aPkyF0IBFGfyc=; b=Hcg+p0zI6XGMj0A3V1h+bX4aRo54Dr1kwtzkjt+1bYBhUZC1ubCKist/yK9kNExHuB 0M2jeQSG4/OrXymH/L+eJZHETRtLnrxBwDqqO1qLzmeCTwD/pjZyRy8UVoXPm50orQzd NF7Ww4O/0P1YghjwknBE7kTI4bDafUF4G1VvOt7faiDvF07jf58msfjvXjsHTu8UY7jy 48nIuh+BKCBxhkWARl61ALajetyG848kCF8XYXbRt5ULGHryPOqyKEwg+S54K9+yLf4y bcyQ5Dc7RUdHhWWuZPeFHyu2S7FoaOhj6GgVqmh9OtCuKUjAYpv+5Z1be6iNk8DdQshz u4Iw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530qoxtyabVUIMGrF8B108DYq8HPCHAuOajg5WOWGF6pkTt7Ad43 t69qN/7ElpubLflUW/DiZG7U0BU52NAQ+P/TMA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz1M6fRqS7By1/RVYQpMkct9lm5Gw8MXRt/+6/20Bpgzkn/wb+yRurj3CIMH36lnrZUIyqxzYlTuJYTy6lqvcQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:1385:: with SMTP id p5mr10571755lfa.447.1629375800820; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 05:23:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Rakesh Gandhi Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 08:23:09 -0400 Message-ID: To: Martin Duke Cc: IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d0499e05c9e89dfc" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 12:23:30 -0000 --000000000000d0499e05c9e89dfc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi WG, The alternate marking method has also been by draft-gandhi-ippm-simple-direct-loss as well as draft-gandhi-mpls-ioam. I support elevating to PS. Thanks, Rakesh On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 2:26 PM Martin Duke wrote: > Hello IPPM, > > (with AD hat on) > > The IESG is currently considering > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark-08 > which is the implementation of RFC 8321 > and 8889 > techniques in an IPv6 > framework. IIUC, this is very much how things are "supposed to work" -- > measurement definitions and methodology are done by IPPM, and the > protocol-specific instantiations are in the respective working groups. > > However, there are complications in that 8321 and 8889 are Experimental > RFCs, and the ipv6-alt-mark draft is a Proposed Standard. This has resulted > in text from 8321/8889 going into ipv6-alt-mark so that it can be elevated > to PS. I'm told that, if the status quo holds, other drafts will reference > ipv6-alt-mark to avoid a downref. This seems suboptimal. > > I would prefer that *we take one of the two following actions*: > 1) If the WG has consensus that we are comfortable that there is enough > experience with 8321 and/or 8889 to elevate them to PS, I can initiate a > document action to change their status. > > 2) If there is no such consensus, ipv6-alt-mark should be Experimental. > > In either case, the draft can probably lose some of the duplicate text. > > Logically, there is a third option -- that the bits of the RFCs copied in > the draft are mature enough to be a standard, but that the others aren't. > Though I'm not an expert, I doubt this is the case. But if people believe > it to be true, we'll have to come up with new options. > > I would be grateful for the working group's thoughts about these documents > and the ideas therein. Is it reasonable for people to read and reflect on > this by 26 August (2 weeks from today?) > > Thanks, > Martin > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > --000000000000d0499e05c9e89dfc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi WG,
The alternate marking method has als= o been by draft-gandhi-ippm-simple-direct-loss as = well as draft-gandhi-mpls-ioam. I support elevating to PS.

Th= anks,
Rakesh


On Thu, Aug 12, 2021 at 2:26 PM Mart= in Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.= com> wrote:
Hello IPPM,

(with AD hat = on)

The IESG is currently considering
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-iet= f-6man-ipv6-alt-mark-08
which is the implementatio= n of RFC 8321 and 8889 techniques in an IPv6 framework. IIUC, this is= very much how things are "supposed to work" -- measurement defin= itions and methodology are done by IPPM, and the protocol-specific instanti= ations are in the respective working groups.

Howev= er, there are complications in that 8321 and 8889 are Experimental RFCs, an= d the ipv6-alt-mark draft is a Proposed Standard. This has resulted in text= from 8321/8889 going into ipv6-alt-mark so that it can be elevated to PS. = I'm told that, if the status quo holds, other drafts will reference ipv= 6-alt-mark to avoid a downref. This seems suboptimal.

<= div>I would prefer that we take one of the two following actions:
1) If the WG has consensus that we are comfortable that there is en= ough experience with 8321 and/or 8889 to elevate them to PS, I can initiate= a document action to change their status.

2) If t= here is no such consensus, ipv6-alt-mark should be Experimental.
=
In either case, the draft can probably lose some of the dupl= icate text.

Logically, there is a third option -- = that the bits of the RFCs copied in the draft are mature enough to be a sta= ndard, but that the others aren't. Though I'm not an expert, I doub= t this is the case. But if people believe it to be true, we'll have to = come up with new options.

I would be grateful for = the working group's thoughts about these documents and the ideas therei= n. Is it reasonable for people to read and reflect on this by 26 August (2 = weeks from today?)

Thanks,
Martin
_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
--000000000000d0499e05c9e89dfc-- From nobody Thu Aug 19 08:49:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB7EE3A1E0A; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 08:49:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.553 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.553 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kHjnI0Ag5Ayd; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 08:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp24.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp24.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFDD53A2147; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 08:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp24.rno.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp24.rno.apple.com (8.16.1.2/8.16.1.2) with SMTP id 17JFkpJj008224; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 08:48:58 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=date : from : to : cc : subject : message-id : references : mime-version : content-type : in-reply-to; s=20180706; bh=bmLEKDXx5qdCW9zfzw8v/KJoQ5H4uZm/or8fGnBkKR8=; b=n92wPf1L4XZ2n0YscC9xQe3u7Hq0ynX8ZpO6PLkAwfLXaVmhCkTP3f4RdEQOte2TNqbw bCtOWZO4T9XEAQL/eULpr/44L5kb03YKT9PaQNYJlz41rOL4hO5J5iSjVVorUTCVbQDU urUG8K6jeG9h70O+uokETMCoEf+NSEXC883wSUWwk71AT9ckwPeo/CfccrqE0GAUVofu 60Iue7Wx4QNeyMuYlVK+1XWK9CmT3soqNe6QF5Sf77dxZDzWNhY01OhfV+YHZoTqmqQM jkO1X5C63+o/rxZ8Wp7C2XJadrqIWBZWw2I4kk3B0mkrCdFHLwBSXo0kPWMzO6GUZ6rH 1Q== Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp03.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp03.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.151]) by rn-mailsvcp-ppex-lapp24.rno.apple.com with ESMTP id 3aebea5tkf-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 19 Aug 2021 08:48:58 -0700 Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.14]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp03.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.9.20210415 64bit (built Apr 15 2021)) with ESMTPS id <0QY3003T1FXHFVI0@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp03.rno.apple.com>; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 08:48:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from process_milters-daemon.rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.9.20210415 64bit (built Apr 15 2021)) id <0QY300300FRC2F00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com>; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 08:48:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: 33616c885c4604f46baf2a2556943e2c X-Va-E-CD: d7a15a19566448dcf38cf1432bea6726 X-Va-R-CD: 6e98d7a867131c065fb4f779b5ad5a6f X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: 2e961d15-6c57-4f95-94f5-ddc7d77c4259 X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: 33616c885c4604f46baf2a2556943e2c X-V-E-CD: d7a15a19566448dcf38cf1432bea6726 X-V-R-CD: 6e98d7a867131c065fb4f779b5ad5a6f X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: e25227cd-03c4-48bd-ae52-fe37160cea05 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-08-19_05:2021-08-17, 2021-08-19 signatures=0 Received: from localhost ([17.192.155.152]) by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.9.20210415 64bit (built Apr 15 2021)) with ESMTPSA id <0QY3008JYFXGTB00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com>; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 08:48:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 08:48:52 -0700 From: Christoph Paasch To: Erik Auerswald Cc: bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net, draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org Message-id: References: <20210815133922.GA18118@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> <20210819071734.GA3936@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline In-reply-to: <20210819071734.GA3936@unix-ag.uni-kl.de> X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-08-19_05:2021-08-17, 2021-08-19 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Bloat] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-00.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 15:49:04 -0000 Hello Erik, On 08/19/21 - 09:17, Erik Auerswald wrote: > Hello Christoph, > > On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 03:01:42PM -0700, Christoph Paasch wrote: > > On 08/15/21 - 15:39, Erik Auerswald wrote: > > > [...] > > > I do not think RPM can replace all other metrics. This is, in a way, > > > mentioned in the introduction, where it is suggested to add RPM to > > > existing measurement platforms. As such I just want to point this out > > > more explicitely, but do not intend to diminish the RPM idea by this. > > > In short, I'd say it's complicated. > > > > Yes, I fully agree that RPM is not the only metric. It is one among > > many. If there is a sentiment in our document that sounds like "RPM > > is the only that matters", please let me know where so we can reword > > the text. > > Regarding just this, in section 3 (Goals), item 3 (User-friendliness), > the I-D states that '[u]sers commonly look for a single "score" of their > performance.' This can lead to the impression that RPM is intended to > provide this single score. yes we can rephrase this: https://github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/issues/11 > I do think that RPM seems more generally useful than either idle latency > or maximum bandwidth, but for a more technically minded audience, all > three provide useful information to get an impression of the usefulness > of a network for different applications. I agree. Just measuring RPM is not useful. As one can have excellent RPM but still have an Internet connection that is barely usable. However, I still believe that a single score for the user would be great (that score would not be RPM though). This score should group together a large list of network-properties (RPM, goodput, idle latency, protocol conformance,...) and express a value of utility to the user that express how its user-experience is affected. It would make it much easier for non-technical users to compare the quality of their Internet without just focusing on a single throughput-metric. But that is a different topic than RPM ;-) Cheers, Christoph > > Thanks, > Erik > -- > Thinking doesn't guarantee that we won't make mistakes. But not thinking > guarantees that we will. > -- Leslie Lamport From nobody Thu Aug 19 16:15:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8086E3A07B7 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 16:15:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.894 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.894 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tIoocNhN4Wjl for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2021 16:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxus.zteusa.com (mxus.zteusa.com [4.14.134.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client 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17JNF7MP035273 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] =?utf-8?q?RFC_8321_and_8889?= X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2021 23:15:20 -0000 --=====_001_next===== Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="=====_002_next=====" --=====_002_next===== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====_003_next=====" --=====_003_next===== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGksIE1hcnRpbiBldCBhbC4sDQoNCkksIHRvbywgc3VwcG9ydCBwcm9ncmVzc2luZyBSRkMgODMy MSAoYXMgYSBjby1hdXRob3IpIGFuZCBSRkMgODg4OS4gVGhlIEFsdGVybmF0ZSBNYXJraW5nIG1l dGhvZCBoYXMgYmVlbiBwcm92ZW4gaW4gc2V2ZXJhbCBpbmRlcGVuZGVudCBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlv bnMgdGhhdCBhcmUgZGVwbG95ZWQgYW5kIHByb3ZpZGUgdmFsdWFibGUgb3BlcmF0aW9uYWwgaW5m b3JtYXRpb24uIEFsc28sIHByb2dyZXNzaW5nIHRvIHRoZSBTdGFuZGFyZHMgdHJhY2sgd2lsbCBo 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from M10-HQ-MLCEN05.cnc.intra (Unknown_Domain [10.249.212.35]) by sendg.mailex.chinaunicom.cn (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id 7B.9C.33106.F1D7F116; Fri, 20 Aug 2021 17:59:59 +0800 (HKT) Received: from M10-HQ-ML12.hq.cnc.intra (10.249.213.82) by M10-HQ-MLCEN05.cnc.intra (10.249.212.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.23; Fri, 20 Aug 2021 17:59:59 +0800 Received: from M10-HQ-ML02.hq.cnc.intra (10.249.213.72) by M10-HQ-ML12.hq.cnc.intra (10.249.213.82) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.23; Fri, 20 Aug 2021 17:59:52 +0800 Received: from M10-HQ-ML02.hq.cnc.intra ([fe80::143:a5ed:cbd6:7b9f]) by M10-HQ-ML02.hq.cnc.intra ([fe80::143:a5ed:cbd6:7b9f%19]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.023; Fri, 20 Aug 2021 17:59:52 +0800 From: =?utf-8?B?UmFuIFBhbmco6IGU6YCa6ZuG5Zui5Lit5Zu96IGU6YCa56CU56m26ZmiLQ==?= =?utf-8?B?5pys6YOoKQ==?= To: Martin Duke , IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 Thread-Index: AQHXlZ/Tes5VZ8CeJE6kqszh1JF3dw== Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 09:59:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.122.203.1] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_d392b3339899499590e0d1c9e7a761a0M10HQML02hqcncintra_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrAIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXC9fOKsq58rXyiwZkrlhY9D94xW0x//ILN gclj56y77B5LlvxkCmCK4rJJSc3JLEst0rdL4Mp42xpV8CyoYuOx80wNjAcCuhg5OSQETCR+ dV9m7GLk4hASOM8o0d86hwXC2ckosfvhXGaQKjBn085qiMRBRokpc44wgThsAk2MEie+rwdy ODhEBNwlfi0TBmkQFlCVmPF1K1RYTWLPAocuRnYgU0/iswpIAQtQwePlmxlBbF6gvofLFzFB bAqQWHNjM5jNKCArMe3RfTCbWUBcYu60WawQNwtILNlznhnCFpV4+fgfVNxAYuvSfSwQtoLE 8p57jBC92RJ/p7YxQ+wSlDg58wkLxC5liebj01knMIrNQrJiFpKWWUhaZgH9wiygKbF+lz5E iaLElO6H7BC2hkTrnLnsyOILGNlXMUoG+7pbGFsY6Pob6yVnZOYlluZlJufn6iXnbWIERSID v+kOxo+3PugdYmTiYDzEKMHBrCTCq8onnyjEm5JYWZValB9fVJqTWnyIUZqDRUmc94SuR4KQ 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Message-ID: <162931946122.24056.16171247737182983530@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 13:44:21 -0700 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 08:29:00 -0700 Subject: [ippm] New Liaison Statement, "Reply to ITU-T SG12 LS - Harmonization of IP Capacity and Latency" X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 20:44:22 -0000 Title: Reply to ITU-T SG12 LS - Harmonization of IP Capacity and Latency Submission Date: 2021-05-21 URL of the IETF Web page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1742/ From: Tommy Pauly To: tsbsg12@itu.int Cc: Scott Mansfield ,Zaheduzzaman Sarker ,itu-t-liaison@iab.org ,IP Performance Measurement Discussion List ,Tommy Pauly ,Martin Duke ,Ian Swett ,,,, , Response Contacts: Tommy Pauly , Ian Swett Technical Contacts: Purpose: In response Referenced liaison: LS on harmonization of IP Capacity and Latency Parameters: Consent of Draft Rec. Y.1540 on IP packet transfer performance parameters and New Annex A with Lab & Field Evaluation Plans (https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/1645/) Body: The IPPM Working Group in IETF thanks ITU-T SG12 for their liaison describing progress on the Maximum IP-layer Capacity metric and methods in revised Rec. Y.1540. The development of a coordinated specification has proceeded successfully in IETF, with the benefit of the review by new experts contributing at the working group and IESG level. The many lab and field test results you shared have been a great asset, so we made references to your results, as well as the testing conducted during Hackathons at recent IETF meetings. The latest draft is available [0], which we expect to be approved shortly. The next step appears to be development/enhancement of a test protocol to support the measurement method with its feeback measurements and dynamic sender rate control. The IPPM Working Group continues to seek participation by all interested parties, and will keep you informed of our progress on the topic of the Maximum IP-layer Capacity metric and methods. Regards, IPPM Chairs Tommy Pauly (tpauly@apple.com) Ian Swett (ianswett@google.com) [0] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-metric-method-12 Attachments: No document has been attached From nobody Fri Aug 20 09:31:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D4DC3A152F for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2021 09:31:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PQcUy6gWWzLD for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2021 09:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x129.google.com (mail-il1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C11563A152D for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2021 09:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x129.google.com with SMTP id h29so10111681ila.2 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2021 09:31:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=93hfOV/Om0YRjwDxWuL/sn6d5+mnrPtvI+QLlyb10vw=; b=hrNFforPsbOFtChM4wUOR5w1MP4fIPwPwqV45OokNxIaRUdIefTXjf9/sDIBLoXmBk q1VsPEi3HbMKx/0cnj330d359ZKIesVMhKeDYReVQ3cSd3FCL/CcWixCwKGtL1QpjUNe 5CrRoNYzoMDFNU0+2s7FpYWXuYGlHIRnYenI8PQh5VGgA0U5Q0yyLd9pFGRyydbPuKu3 NbOR4ZxruO+Gy3dgCeEOXNHEcDvAzTDFxFSaKwT173N/abPyKgCOZU1LcWYjhX5dFAzV BbGqIchVQtQZ4sYWju3ozBy47sY+euS1BmqjAa6buspSbqH7R1zWxWfInOXVtUVYMjk/ fasg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=93hfOV/Om0YRjwDxWuL/sn6d5+mnrPtvI+QLlyb10vw=; b=lVteH+o1SiaOlae2PCrtKc8Az2ud4xk9XXNaX195PJ4VBhQFB+pn05mMkZLJXvBcYn 3QEtFeFioMXnWyUUshOTduEhWQz4C2NhDX/+jRq0KXau/0ZgtllJplxKbNlYG0S9IC98 pv2OPk+AjUhKQnocX/J0xVtqlEPI/FpIZ5nB95+NUyOwRMGeNDe5zYgcS9DMtRmH/XoM qQChx7tu9+9GK+cQadCNwG6MUrWpNPHAJDCZWROUVLmKy7oMK4ewOfbWheSMdeB9vq58 8PpGGeTZA/UuwBtNRxEgzc1tea5pHlKTYrjX+szuc7hbCivj3ChgNR2pzvN+C9BUFHDU EyWA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533OV5XxJalX1EXFORXiHvp2I3DD0UTDy4KBcAOsLz7jOM3H/frS iN8Z7HNo71H/0AR+1Yz0tKD6liZ3u5Al72IqIypXy5xQ X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwqUVAalVGgRyHawRYdkH188OCqESWUc/v4CcPX/uQ2vt2UhSsx07wCOWoM5O/DjWXwXbomyIeZmLp5oJiDIpY= X-Received: by 2002:a92:660e:: with SMTP id a14mr14251463ilc.249.1629477075310; Fri, 20 Aug 2021 09:31:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Martin Duke Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 09:31:04 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?UmFuIFBhbmco6IGU6YCa6ZuG5Zui5Lit5Zu96IGU6YCa56CU56m26ZmiLeacrOmDqCk=?= Cc: IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003e5d0605ca003233" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 16:31:23 -0000 --0000000000003e5d0605ca003233 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks all, I'm hearing strong consensus that 8321 should be a PS and somewhat weaker support for 8889, but no dissents. If anyone has serious concerns, this would be a good time to say so. On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 3:02 AM Ran Pang(=E8=81=94=E9=80=9A=E9=9B=86=E5=9B= =A2=E4=B8=AD=E5=9B=BD=E8=81=94=E9=80=9A=E7=A0=94=E7=A9=B6=E9=99=A2-=E6=9C= =AC=E9=83=A8) < pangran@chinaunicom.cn> wrote: > Hi Martin and WG, > > The alt-mk described in RFC8321/8889 has been deployed in some of our > networks. > > It works well. > > So I would like the WG consider elevate them to proposed standard. > > > Best regards, > Pang Ran. > > > *From:* Martin Duke > *Date:* 2021-08-13 02:26 > *To:* IETF IPPM WG > *Subject:* [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 > Hello IPPM, > > (with AD hat on) > > The IESG is currently considering > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark-08 > which is the implementation of RFC 8321 > and 8889 > techniques in an IPv6 > framework. IIUC, this is very much how things are "supposed to work" -- > measurement definitions and methodology are done by IPPM, and the > protocol-specific instantiations are in the respective working groups. > > However, there are complications in that 8321 and 8889 are Experimental > RFCs, and the ipv6-alt-mark draft is a Proposed Standard. This has result= ed > in text from 8321/8889 going into ipv6-alt-mark so that it can be elevate= d > to PS. I'm told that, if the status quo holds, other drafts will referenc= e > ipv6-alt-mark to avoid a downref. This seems suboptimal. > > I would prefer that *we take one of the two following actions*: > 1) If the WG has consensus that we are comfortable that there is enough > experience with 8321 and/or 8889 to elevate them to PS, I can initiate a > document action to change their status. > > 2) If there is no such consensus, ipv6-alt-mark should be Experimental. > > In either case, the draft can probably lose some of the duplicate text. > > Logically, there is a third option -- that the bits of the RFCs copied in > the draft are mature enough to be a standard, but that the others aren't. > Though I'm not an expert, I doubt this is the case. But if people believe > it to be true, we'll have to come up with new options. > > I would be grateful for the working group's thoughts about these document= s > and the ideas therein. Is it reasonable for people to read and reflect on > this by 26 August (2 weeks from today?) > > Thanks, > Martin > > =E5=A6=82=E6=9E=9C=E6=82=A8=E9=94=99=E8=AF=AF=E6=8E=A5=E6=94=B6=E4=BA=86= =E8=AF=A5=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=EF=BC=8C=E8=AF=B7=E9=80=9A=E8=BF=87=E7=94=B5=E5= =AD=90=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E7=AB=8B=E5=8D=B3=E9=80=9A=E7=9F=A5=E6=88=91=E4=BB= =AC=E3=80=82=E8=AF=B7=E5=9B=9E=E5=A4=8D=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=88=B0 hqs-spmc= @chinaunicom.cn=EF=BC=8C=E5=8D=B3=E5=8F=AF=E4=BB=A5=E9=80=80=E8=AE=A2=E6=AD= =A4=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E3=80=82=E6=88=91=E4=BB=AC=E5=B0=86=E7=AB=8B=E5=8D=B3= =E5=B0=86=E6=82=A8=E7=9A=84=E4=BF=A1=E6=81=AF=E4=BB=8E=E6=88=91=E4=BB=AC=E7= =9A=84=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E7=9B=AE=E5=BD=95=E4=B8=AD=E5=88=A0=E9=99=A4=E3=80= =82 > If you have received this email in error please notify us immediately by > e-mail. Please reply to hqs-spmc@chinaunicom.cn ,you can unsubscribe from > this mail. We will immediately remove your information from send catalogu= e > of our. > --0000000000003e5d0605ca003233 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks all,

I'm hearing = strong consensus that 8321 should be a PS and somewhat weaker support for 8= 889, but no dissents.

If anyone has serious concer= ns, this would be a good time to say so.

On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 3= :02 AM Ran Pang(=E8=81=94=E9=80=9A=E9=9B=86=E5=9B=A2=E4=B8=AD=E5=9B=BD=E8= =81=94=E9=80=9A=E7=A0=94=E7=A9=B6=E9=99=A2-=E6=9C=AC=E9=83=A8) <pangran@chinaunicom.cn> wrote:
Hi Martin and WG,

The alt-mk describ= ed in RFC8321/8889 has been deployed in some of our networks.

It works well.

So I would like th= e WG consider elevate them to proposed standard.


Best regards,
Pang Ran.
=C2=A0
From:=C2=A0Martin Duke
Date:=C2=A02021-08-13=C2=A002:26
Subject:=C2=A0[ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889
Hello IPPM,

(with AD hat on)

The IESG is currently considering
which is the implementation of RFC 8321 and 8889 techniques in an IPv6 framework. IIUC, this is very mu= ch how things are "supposed to work" -- measurement definitions a= nd methodology are done by IPPM, and the protocol-specific instantiations are in the respective working groups.

However, there are complications in that 8321 and 8889 are Experimenta= l RFCs, and the ipv6-alt-mark draft is a Proposed Standard. This has result= ed in text from 8321/8889 going into ipv6-alt-mark so that it can be elevat= ed to PS. I'm told that, if the status quo holds, other drafts will reference ipv6-alt-mark to avoid a dow= nref. This seems suboptimal.

I would prefer that we take one of the two following actions:
1) If the WG has consensus that we are comfortable that there is enoug= h experience with 8321 and/or 8889 to elevate them to PS, I can initiate a = document action to change their status.

2) If there is no such consensus, ipv6-alt-mark should be Experimental= .

In either case, the draft can probably lose some of the duplicate text= .

Logically, there is a third option -- that the bits of the RFCs copied= in the draft are mature enough to be a standard, but that the others aren&= #39;t. Though I'm not an expert, I doubt this is the case. But if peopl= e believe it to be true, we'll have to come up with new options.

I would be grateful for the working group's thoughts about these d= ocuments and the ideas therein. Is it reasonable for people to read and ref= lect on this by 26 August (2 weeks from today?)

Thanks,
Martin
=E5=A6=82=E6=9E=9C=E6=82=A8=E9=94=99=E8=AF=AF=E6=8E=A5=E6=94=B6=E4=BA=86=E8= =AF=A5=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=EF=BC=8C=E8=AF=B7=E9=80=9A=E8=BF=87=E7=94=B5=E5=AD= =90=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E7=AB=8B=E5=8D=B3=E9=80=9A=E7=9F=A5=E6=88=91=E4=BB=AC= =E3=80=82=E8=AF=B7=E5=9B=9E=E5=A4=8D=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=88=B0=C2=A0hqs-spmc@chinaunicom= .cn=EF=BC=8C=E5=8D=B3=E5=8F=AF=E4=BB=A5=E9=80=80=E8=AE=A2=E6=AD=A4=E9= =82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E3=80=82=E6=88=91=E4=BB=AC=E5=B0=86=E7=AB=8B=E5=8D=B3=E5=B0= =86=E6=82=A8=E7=9A=84=E4=BF=A1=E6=81=AF=E4=BB=8E=E6=88=91=E4=BB=AC=E7=9A=84= =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E7=9B=AE=E5=BD=95=E4=B8=AD=E5=88=A0=E9=99=A4=E3=80=82 If= you have received this email in error please notify us immediately by e-ma= il. Please reply to=C2=A0hqs-spmc@chinaunicom.cn=C2=A0,you can unsubscribe from this= mail. We will immediately remove your information from send catalogue of our.
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b=eRNhwu3SelrJ4pcI50c9GFGty6lRt5IUp36CAW38NrrAjay0AMxBX2GwCgo8lr5vL9 PpXsJyQDiYX+hxbJMMCpOb7Tmc1RQomOqu0ymkDEsgEdQuJM3FChiG1H2pzy8SUuw6DM iANg+1+TFl9mYMaTEHhWPGPL3tgsHsO7/EwKwz59Aepv6NoH9LMdivzXTdoqG4oiLMKI OVlOr/vEbAJOi7flUDyPgUY2iZRF3y1sBUQfNPxehjQ4z/Gkw9TNAqMoE7tIAHrZWlY8 X16s6gU9ZlVH7xNt34O/kSEbU92y8lyD0Shxf/ZuYlLwo3KUWUaxuSgfjR4cl7Tni1Xk k2Tg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ZzOZJYDeWzOYshAGl5pRgWPiZxD4gb6Qt5fGAyWXUE8AKbcMO novBHXXbHaI/1zxRrO5943b52J7+OhThWPBY4VQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx2RmYANqygjJvEnXVwJwI0rPk8PbkmZAy6uBFWl+f+39xU0O3Wm+VotvFYw2I02qFe2QfUkHsg6jLaz0uMers= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:ed1:: with SMTP id i17mr24197825ilk.272.1629747257138; Mon, 23 Aug 2021 12:34:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Martin Duke Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 12:34:06 -0700 Message-ID: To: "MORTON JR., AL" Cc: =?UTF-8?B?UmFuIFBhbmco6IGU6YCa6ZuG5Zui5Lit5Zu96IGU6YCa56CU56m26ZmiLeacrOmDqCk=?= , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000055e4ce05ca3f1acc" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2021 19:34:26 -0000 --00000000000055e4ce05ca3f1acc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Al, this is my impression as well. In a perfect world I would ask the WG to do a bis draft to inventory what is mature and to deprecate the bits that haven't seen real deployment. If it turns out that it's all deployed, then we could do a simpler document action. Is this work that anyone is interested in taking on? On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 9:41 AM MORTON JR., AL wrote: > Hi Martin, > > > > While I don=E2=80=99t have a serious concern, I=E2=80=99d prefer to eleva= te the parts of > 8321 that **were implemented** to PS. I think I read that some parts > were not implemented and I look to those who reported on their > implementations to say what they did. > > > > This thinning-out of non-implemented capabilities was a feature of > Standards Track Advancement processes in the past, so it makes sense to > apply it here as well. I realize this means a new draft, but the > processing could be accelerated to match the need. > > > > If the entire RFC 8321 was implemented, then this point is a non-issue. > > > > hope this helps, > > Al > > > > *From:* ippm *On Behalf Of *Martin Duke > *Sent:* Friday, August 20, 2021 12:31 PM > *To:* Ran Pang(=E8=81=94=E9=80=9A=E9=9B=86=E5=9B=A2=E4=B8=AD=E5=9B=BD=E8= =81=94=E9=80=9A=E7=A0=94=E7=A9=B6=E9=99=A2-=E6=9C=AC=E9=83=A8) > *Cc:* IETF IPPM WG > *Subject:* Re: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 > > > > Thanks all, > > > > I'm hearing strong consensus that 8321 should be a PS and somewhat weaker > support for 8889, but no dissents. > > > > If anyone has serious concerns, this would be a good time to say so. > > > > On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 3:02 AM Ran Pang(=E8=81=94=E9=80=9A=E9=9B=86=E5= =9B=A2=E4=B8=AD=E5=9B=BD=E8=81=94=E9=80=9A=E7=A0=94=E7=A9=B6=E9=99=A2-=E6= =9C=AC=E9=83=A8) < > pangran@chinaunicom.cn> wrote: > > Hi Martin and WG, > > > > The alt-mk described in RFC8321/8889 has been deployed in some of our > networks. > > It works well. > > So I would like the WG consider elevate them to proposed standard. > > > > Best regards, > > Pang Ran. > > > > *From:* Martin Duke > > *Date:* 2021-08-13 02:26 > > *To:* IETF IPPM WG > > *Subject:* [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 > > Hello IPPM, > > > > (with AD hat on) > > > > The IESG is currently considering > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark-08 > > > which is the implementation of RFC 8321 > > and 8889 > > techniques in an IPv6 framework. IIUC, this is very much how things are > "supposed to work" -- measurement definitions and methodology are done by > IPPM, and the protocol-specific instantiations are in the respective > working groups. > > > > However, there are complications in that 8321 and 8889 are Experimental > RFCs, and the ipv6-alt-mark draft is a Proposed Standard. This has result= ed > in text from 8321/8889 going into ipv6-alt-mark so that it can be elevate= d > to PS. I'm told that, if the status quo holds, other drafts will referenc= e > ipv6-alt-mark to avoid a downref. This seems suboptimal. > > > > I would prefer that *we take one of the two following actions*: > > 1) If the WG has consensus that we are comfortable that there is enough > experience with 8321 and/or 8889 to elevate them to PS, I can initiate a > document action to change their status. > > > > 2) If there is no such consensus, ipv6-alt-mark should be Experimental. > > > > In either case, the draft can probably lose some of the duplicate text. > > > > Logically, there is a third option -- that the bits of the RFCs copied in > the draft are mature enough to be a standard, but that the others aren't. > Though I'm not an expert, I doubt this is the case. But if people believe > it to be true, we'll have to come up with new options. > > > > I would be grateful for the working group's thoughts about these document= s > and the ideas therein. Is it reasonable for people to read and reflect on > this by 26 August (2 weeks from today?) > > > > Thanks, > > Martin > > =E5=A6=82=E6=9E=9C=E6=82=A8=E9=94=99=E8=AF=AF=E6=8E=A5=E6=94=B6=E4=BA=86= =E8=AF=A5=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=EF=BC=8C=E8=AF=B7=E9=80=9A=E8=BF=87=E7=94=B5=E5= =AD=90=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E7=AB=8B=E5=8D=B3=E9=80=9A=E7=9F=A5=E6=88=91=E4=BB= =AC=E3=80=82=E8=AF=B7=E5=9B=9E=E5=A4=8D=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=88=B0 hqs-spmc= @chinaunicom.cn=EF=BC=8C=E5=8D=B3=E5=8F=AF=E4=BB=A5=E9=80=80 > =E8=AE=A2=E6=AD=A4=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E3=80=82=E6=88=91=E4=BB=AC=E5=B0=86= =E7=AB=8B=E5=8D=B3=E5=B0=86=E6=82=A8=E7=9A=84=E4=BF=A1=E6=81=AF=E4=BB=8E=E6= =88=91=E4=BB=AC=E7=9A=84=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E7=9B=AE=E5=BD=95=E4=B8=AD=E5=88= =A0=E9=99=A4=E3=80=82 If you have received this email in error > please notify us immediately by e-mail. Please reply to > hqs-spmc@chinaunicom.cn ,you can unsubscribe from this mail. We will > immediately remove your information from send catalogue of our. > > --00000000000055e4ce05ca3f1acc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Al, this is my impression as well. In a perfect wo= rld I would ask the WG to do a bis draft to inventory what is mature and to= deprecate the bits that haven't seen real deployment. If it turns out = that it's all deployed, then we could do a simpler document action.
=

Is this work that anyone is interested in taking = on?

On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 9:41 AM MORTON JR., AL <acmorton@att.com> wrote:

= Hi Martin,

= =C2=A0

= While I don=E2=80=99t have a serious concern, I=E2=80=99d prefer to elevate= the parts of 8321 that *were implemented* to PS.=C2=A0 I think I read that some parts were not implemented and I look to th= ose who reported on their implementations to say what they did.

= =C2=A0

= This thinning-out of non-implemented capabilities was a feature of Standard= s Track Advancement processes in the past, so it makes sense to apply it he= re as well.=C2=A0 I realize this means a new draft, but the processing could be accele= rated to match the need.

= =C2=A0

= If the entire RFC 8321 was implemented, then this point is a non-issue.<= /u>

= =C2=A0

= hope this helps,

= Al

= =C2=A0

From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org&g= t; On Behalf Of Martin Duke
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2021 12:31 PM
To: Ran Pang(=E8=81=94=E9=80=9A=E9=9B=86=E5=9B=A2=E4=B8=AD=E5=9B= =BD=E8=81=94=E9=80=9A=E7=A0=94=E7=A9=B6=E9=99=A2-=E6=9C=AC=E9=83=A8= ) <pangran@ch= inaunicom.cn>
Cc: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889

=C2=A0

Thanks all,=

=C2=A0

I'm hearing strong co= nsensus that 8321 should be a PS and somewhat weaker support for 8889, but = no dissents.

=C2=A0

If anyone has serious con= cerns, this would be a good time to say so.

=C2=A0

On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 3= :02 AM Ran Pang(=E8=81=94=E9=80=9A=E9=9B=86=E5=9B=A2=E4=B8=AD=E5=9B=BD=E8=81=94= =E9=80=9A=E7=A0=94=E7=A9=B6=E9=99=A2-=E6=9C=AC=E9=83=A8) <pangran@ch= inaunicom.cn> wrote:

Hi Martin and WG,<= u>

=C2=A0

The alt-mk described in RFC8321/8889 has been deploy= ed in some of our networks.

It works well.

So I would like the WG consider elevate them to prop= osed standard.

=C2=A0

Best regards,

Pang Ran.

=C2=A0

From:=C2= =A0Martin Duke

Date:=C2=A02021-08-13=C2=A002:26

To:=C2=A0IETF IPPM WG

Subject:=C2=A0[ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889

Hello IPPM,=

=C2=A0

(with AD hat on)

=C2=A0

The IESG is currently con= sidering

which is the implementati= on of RFC 8321 and 8889 techniques in an IPv6 framework. IIUC, this is very much how thing= s are "supposed to work" -- measurement definitions and methodolo= gy are done by IPPM, and the protocol-specific instantiations are in the re= spective working groups.

=C2=A0

However, there are compli= cations in that 8321 and 8889 are Experimental RFCs, and the ipv6-alt-mark = draft is a Proposed Standard. This has resulted in text from 8321/8889 goin= g into ipv6-alt-mark so that it can be elevated to PS. I'm told that, if the status quo holds, other draft= s will reference ipv6-alt-mark to avoid a downref. This seems suboptimal.

=C2=A0

I would prefer that we= take one of the two following actions:

1) If the WG has consensu= s that we are comfortable that there is enough experience with 8321 and/or = 8889 to elevate them to PS, I can initiate a document action to change thei= r status.

=C2=A0

2) If there is no such co= nsensus, ipv6-alt-mark should be Experimental.

=C2=A0

In either case, the draft= can probably lose some of the duplicate text.

=C2=A0

Logically, there is a thi= rd option -- that the bits of the RFCs copied in the draft are mature enoug= h to be a standard, but that the others aren't. Though I'm not an e= xpert, I doubt this is the case. But if people believe it to be true, we'll have to come up with new options.<= u>

=C2=A0

I would be grateful for t= he working group's thoughts about these documents and the ideas therein= . Is it reasonable for people to read and reflect on this by 26 August (2 w= eeks from today?)

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Martin

=E5=A6=82=E6=9E=9C=E6=82=A8=E9=94=99=E8=AF=AF=E6= =8E=A5=E6=94=B6=E4=BA=86=E8=AF=A5=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=EF=BC=8C=E8=AF=B7=E9=80= =9A=E8=BF=87=E7=94=B5=E5=AD=90=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E7=AB=8B=E5=8D=B3=E9=80=9A= =E7=9F=A5=E6=88=91=E4=BB=AC=E3=80=82=E8=AF=B7=E5=9B=9E=E5=A4=8D=E9=82=AE=E4= =BB=B6=E5=88=B0=C2=A0hqs-spmc@chinaunicom.cn=EF=BC=8C=E5=8D=B3=E5=8F=AF=E4=BB=A5=E9=80=80=E8=AE=A2=E6= =AD=A4=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E3=80=82=E6=88=91=E4=BB=AC=E5=B0=86=E7=AB=8B=E5=8D= =B3=E5=B0=86=E6=82=A8=E7=9A=84=E4=BF=A1=E6=81=AF=E4=BB=8E=E6=88=91=E4=BB=AC= =E7=9A=84=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E7=9B=AE=E5=BD=95=E4=B8=AD=E5=88=A0=E9=99=A4=E3= =80=82 If you have received this email in error please notify us immediately by e= -mail. Please reply to=C2=A0hqs-spmc@chinaunicom.cn=C2=A0,you can unsubscribe from th= is mail. We will immediately remove your information from send catalogue of our.

--00000000000055e4ce05ca3f1acc-- From nobody Mon Aug 23 17:42:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C40553A0FB6 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2021 17:41:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XeBGUlBjmo2K for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2021 17:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxhk.zte.com.cn (mxhk.zte.com.cn [63.217.80.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2FDE3A0FB5 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2021 17:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mse-fl2.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.14.239]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTPS id 5E2454A7B65972E203DF; Tue, 24 Aug 2021 08:41:47 +0800 (CST) Received: from njxapp05.zte.com.cn ([10.41.132.204]) by mse-fl2.zte.com.cn with SMTP id 17O0ff3I034998; Tue, 24 Aug 2021 08:41:41 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from xiao.min2@zte.com.cn) Received: from mapi (njxapp03[null]) by mapi (Zmail) with MAPI id mid201; Tue, 24 Aug 2021 08:41:41 +0800 (CST) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 08:41:41 +0800 (CST) X-Zmail-TransId: 2afb61244045bb27f854 X-Mailer: Zmail v1.0 Message-ID: <202108240841413906514@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: References: CAM4esxQHOV2uWJGeqhSyWAbgr36n71S8Ss1bc-1qFiFex9Wu3w@mail.gmail.com, d392b3339899499590e0d1c9e7a761a0@M10-HQ-ML02.hq.cnc.intra, CAM4esxS-zLVGO7oYLf+aRhWmYLg4FOzZ1cvTRDnx0kmQ2-_44Q@mail.gmail.com, SJ0PR02MB78531F377BA2BED3CACB43DFD3C19@SJ0PR02MB7853.namprd02.prod.outlook.com, CAM4esxTd76BDaGDxHzxqM8am+g2bAui7=Q06uGoXkLLq25Ur4Q@mail.gmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 From: To: Cc: , , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====_001_next=====" X-MAIL: mse-fl2.zte.com.cn 17O0ff3I034998 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] =?utf-8?q?RFC_8321_and_8889?= X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 00:41:57 -0000 --=====_001_next===== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====_003_next=====" --=====_003_next===== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Martin, I'd like to work on this, as an author or a contributor. Best Regards, Xiao Min ------------------原始邮件------------------ 发件人：MartinDuke 收件人：MORTON JR., AL; 抄送人：Ran Pang(联通集团中国联通研究院-本部);IETF IPPM WG; 日 期 ：2021年08月24日 03:35 主 题 ：Re: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm Hi Al, this is my impression as well. In a perfect world I would ask the WG to do a bis draft to inventory what is mature and to deprecate the bits that haven't seen real deployment. If it turns out that it's all deployed, then we could do a simpler document action. Is this work that anyone is interested in taking on? On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 9:41 AM MORTON JR., AL wrote: Hi Martin, While I don’t have a serious concern, I’d prefer to elevate the parts of 8321 that *were implemented* to PS. I think I read that some parts were not implemented and I look to those who reported on their implementations to say what they did. This thinning-out of non-implemented capabilities was a feature of Standards Track Advancement processes in the past, so it makes sense to apply it here as well. I realize this means a new draft, but the processing could be accelerated to match the need. If the entire RFC 8321 was implemented, then this point is a non-issue. hope this helps, Al From: ippm On Behalf Of Martin Duke Sent: Friday, August 20, 2021 12:31 PM To: Ran Pang(联通集团中国联通研究院-本部) Cc: IETF IPPM WG Subject: Re: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 Thanks all, I'm hearing strong consensus that 8321 should be a PS and somewhat weaker support for 8889, but no dissents. If anyone has serious concerns, this would be a good time to say so. On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 3:02 AM Ran Pang(联通集团中国联通研究院-本部) wrote: Hi Martin and WG, The alt-mk described in RFC8321/8889 has been deployed in some of our networks. It works well. So I would like the WG consider elevate them to proposed standard. Best regards, Pang Ran. From: Martin Duke Date: 2021-08-13 02:26 To: IETF IPPM WG Subject: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 Hello IPPM, (with AD hat on) The IESG is currently considering https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark-08 which is the implementation of RFC 8321 and 8889 techniques in an IPv6 framework. IIUC, this is very much how things are "supposed to work" -- measurement definitions and methodology are done by IPPM, and the protocol-specific instantiations are in the respective working groups. However, there are complications in that 8321 and 8889 are Experimental RFCs, and the ipv6-alt-mark draft is a Proposed Standard. This has resulted in text from 8321/8889 going into ipv6-alt-mark so that it can be elevated to PS. I'm told that, if the status quo holds, other drafts will reference ipv6-alt-mark to avoid a downref. This seems suboptimal. I would prefer that we take one of the two following actions: 1) If the WG has consensus that we are comfortable that there is enough experience with 8321 and/or 8889 to elevate them to PS, I can initiate a document action to change their status. 2) If there is no such consensus, ipv6-alt-mark should be Experimental. In either case, the draft can probably lose some of the duplicate text. Logically, there is a third option -- that the bits of the RFCs copied in the draft are mature enough to be a standard, but that the others aren't. Though I'm not an expert, I doubt this is the case. But if people believe it to be true, we'll have to come up with new options. I would be grateful for the working group's thoughts about these documents and the ideas therein. Is it reasonable for people to read and reflect on this by 26 August (2 weeks from today?) Thanks, Martin 如果您错误接收了该邮件，请通过电子邮件立即通知我们。请回复邮件到 hqs-spmc@chinaunicom.cn，即可以退订此邮件。我们将立即将您的信息从我们的发送目录中删除。 If you have received this email in error please notify us immediately by e-mail. Please reply to hqs-spmc@chinaunicom.cn ,you can unsubscribe from this mail. We will immediately remove your information from send catalogue of our. --=====_003_next=====-- --=====_001_next=====-- From nobody Mon Aug 23 19:40:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B7A33A0B70 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2021 19:40:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.796 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.796 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DCi01csocChr for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2021 19:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com 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([7.221.188.141]) with mapi id 15.01.2308.008; Tue, 24 Aug 2021 10:40:09 +0800 From: Tianran Zhou To: Martin Duke , "MORTON JR., AL" CC: IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 Thread-Index: AQHXj6gXYFLOXr8EnUa/cGcJ/ISGV6t8HB0AgAAC0ACABOdSAIAA7mhw Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 02:40:09 +0000 Message-ID: <1b1e97d22f34429597a760d6a006fcdc@huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.243.128] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1b1e97d22f34429597a760d6a006fcdchuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 02:40:23 -0000 --_000_1b1e97d22f34429597a760d6a006fcdchuaweicom_ 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--_000_1b1e97d22f34429597a760d6a006fcdchuaweicom_-- From nobody Tue Aug 24 01:36:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93D043A1585 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 2021 01:36:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.796 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.796 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lMJJ333Wlznx for ; Tue, 24 Aug 2021 01:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9A123A15A8 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 2021 01:36:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fraeml708-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.226]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4Gv2V34BMCz67xR2; Tue, 24 Aug 2021 16:34:51 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.33) by fraeml708-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2308.8; Tue, 24 Aug 2021 10:36:07 +0200 Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) by fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) with mapi id 15.01.2308.008; Tue, 24 Aug 2021 10:36:07 +0200 From: Giuseppe Fioccola To: Martin Duke , "MORTON JR., AL" CC: =?utf-8?B?UmFuIFBhbmco6IGU6YCa6ZuG5Zui5Lit5Zu96IGU6YCa56CU56m26ZmiLQ==?= =?utf-8?B?5pys6YOoKQ==?= , IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 Thread-Index: AQHXj6gWPejcFtn9s0ywj57o9VM7G6t8gLIAgAAC0ACABOdSAIAA+1Jg Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 08:36:07 +0000 Message-ID: <6c463f9daf414b9eaaa39e8db74898a0@huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.85.8] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6c463f9daf414b9eaaa39e8db74898a0huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 08:36:30 -0000 --_000_6c463f9daf414b9eaaa39e8db74898a0huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgTWFydGluLA0KSW4gUkZDIDgzMjEgdGhlcmUgYXJlIG9ubHkgdHdvIGFsdGVybmF0aXZlcyBp 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quoted-printable
Hi= Martin and All.
The 2 bits described= in RFC8321 are both implemented so I would rather simply elevate it to PS.&= nbsp;
Regards.
Mauro


-------- Messaggio originale --------
Da: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
Data: 23/08/21 21:35 (GMT+01:00)
A: "MORTON JR., AL" <acmorton@att.com>
Cc: "Ran Pang(=C1=AA=CD=A8=BC=AF=CD=C5=D6=D0=B9=FA=C1=AA=CD=A8=D1= =D0=BE=BF=D4=BA-=B1=BE=B2=BF)" <pangran@chinaunicom.cn>, IETF IPP= M WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Oggetto: Re: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889

Hi Al, this is my impression as well. In a perfect world I would ask th= e WG to do a bis draft to inventory what is mature and to deprecate the bits= that haven't seen real deployment. If it turns out that it's all deployed,= then we could do a simpler document action.

Is this work that anyone is interested in taking on?

On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 9:41 AM MORTON= JR., AL <acmorton@att.com> wr= ote:

H= i Martin,

<= u> 

W= hile I don=A1=AFt have a serious concern, I=A1=AFd prefer to elevate the par= ts of 8321 that *were implemented* to PS.  I think I read that some parts were not implemented and I look to tho= se who reported on their implementations to say what they did.=

<= u> 

T= his thinning-out of non-implemented capabilities was a feature of Standards= Track Advancement processes in the past, so it makes sense to apply it here= as well.  I realize this means a new draft, but the processing could be acceler= ated to match the need.

<= u> 

I= f the entire RFC 8321 was implemented, then this point is a non-issue.

<= u> 

h= ope this helps,

A= l

<= u> 

From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Martin Duke
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2021 12:31 PM
To: Ran Pang(=C1=AA=CD=A8=BC=AF=CD=C5=D6=D0=B9=FA=C1=AA=CD=A8=D1=D0= =BE=BF=D4=BA-=B1=BE=B2=BF) <pangran@chinaunicom.cn>
Cc: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889

 

Thanks all,<= /p>

 

I'm hearing strong consens= us that 8321 should be a PS and somewhat weaker support for 8889, but no dis= sents.

 

If anyone has serious conc= erns, this would be a good time to say so.

 

Hi Martin and WG,

 

The alt-mk described in RFC8321/8889 has been deploye= d in some of our networks.

It works well.

So I would like the WG consider elevate them to propo= sed standard.

 

Best regards,

Pang Ran.

 

From:&= nbsp;Martin Duke

Date:&= nbsp;2021-08-13 02:26

To:&nb= sp;IETF IPPM WG

Subject:Hello IPPM,<= /p>

 

(with AD hat on)=

 

The IESG is currently cons= idering

which is the implementatio= n of RFC 8321 and 8889 techniques in an IPv6 framework. IIUC, this is very much how things= are "supposed to work" -- measurement definitions and methodology= are done by IPPM, and the protocol-specific instantiations are in the respe= ctive working groups.

 

However, there are complic= ations in that 8321 and 8889 are Experimental RFCs, and the ipv6-alt-mark dr= aft is a Proposed Standard. This has resulted in text from 8321/8889 going i= nto ipv6-alt-mark so that it can be elevated to PS. I'm told that, if the status quo holds, other drafts wil= l reference ipv6-alt-mark to avoid a downref. This seems suboptimal.<= u>

 

I would prefer that we= take one of the two following actions:

1) If the WG has consensus= that we are comfortable that there is enough experience with 8321 and/or 88= 89 to elevate them to PS, I can initiate a document action to change their s= tatus.

 

2) If there is no such con= sensus, ipv6-alt-mark should be Experimental.

 

In either case, the draft= can probably lose some of the duplicate text.

 

Logically, there is a thir= d option -- that the bits of the RFCs copied in the draft are mature enough= to be a standard, but that the others aren't. Though I'm not an expert, I d= oubt this is the case. But if people believe it to be true, we'll have to come up with new options.

 

I would be grateful for th= e working group's thoughts about these documents and the ideas therein. Is i= t reasonable for people to read and reflect on this by 26 August (2 weeks fr= om today?)

 

Thanks,

Martin

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Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle= persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante d= alla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora a= bbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di da= rne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione= , Grazie.

This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privil= eged information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying,= printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intende= d recipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the s= ender by return e-mail, Thanks.

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2021 09:00:41 +0800 From: Mach Chen To: Cociglio Mauro , "Martin Duke" , "MORTON JR., AL" CC: =?gb2312?B?UmFuIFBhbmcowarNqLyvzcXW0Ln6warNqNHQvr/Uui2xvrK/KQ==?= , IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: Re: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 Thread-Index: AQHXmOUyxNT9LSKU5ka7Yvn0CyeEt6uDZaSQ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 01:00:41 +0000 Message-ID: <5251b86347cb4fc3b369eda020418cc6@huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.110.46.250] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5251b86347cb4fc3b369eda020418cc6huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 01:00:56 -0000 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Hi all,

 

As I know, the two alt= ernatives defined in RFC 8321 are both implemented, I also agree with idea = to elevate RFC 8321 to PS.

 

Best regards,

Mach=

 

From: = ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Cociglio Mauro
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2021 8:55 PM
To: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>; MORTON JR., AL <= acmorton@att.com>
Cc: Ran Pang(=C1=AA=CD=A8=BC= =AF=CD=C5=D6=D0=B9=FA=C1=AA=CD=A8=D1=D0=BE=BF=D4=BA-= =B1=BE=B2=BF= ) <pangran@chinaunicom.cn>; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889

 

Hi Martin and All.<= /p>

The 2 bits described in RFC8321 are both implemented so I would r= ather simply elevate it to PS. 

Regards.

Mauro

 

 

-------- = Messaggio originale --------

Da: Marti= n Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.c= om>

Data: 23/= 08/21 21:35 (GMT+01:00)

A: "= MORTON JR., AL" <acmorton@att.c= om>

Cc: "= ;Ran Pang(=C1=AA=CD=A8=BC=AF=CD=C5=D6=D0= =B9=FA=C1=AA=CD=A8=D1=D0=BE=BF=D4=BA-=B1=BE=B2= =BF)" <pangran@chinaunicom.cn>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Oggetto: = Re: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889

&nbs= p;

Hi Al, this is my impression as= well. In a perfect world I would ask the WG to do a bis draft to inventory= what is mature and to deprecate the bits that haven't seen real deployment= . If it turns out that it's all deployed, then we could do a simpler document action.

 

Is this work that anyone is int= erested in taking on?

 

On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 9:41 AM= MORTON JR., AL <acmorton@att.com> wrote:

Hi Martin,

 

While I don=A1=AFt have a serious concern, I=A1=AFd prefer to elevate the = parts of 8321 that *were implemented* to PS.  I think I read that some parts were not implemented and I look to those who report= ed on their implementations to say what they did.

 

This thinning-out of non-implemented capabilities was a feature of Standar= ds Track Advancement processes in the past, so it makes sense to apply it here as well.  I realize this means a new dra= ft, but the processing could be accelerated to match the need.

 

If the entire RFC 8321 was implemented, then this point is a non-issue.

 

hope this helps,

Al

 

From: ippm= <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Martin Duke
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2021 12:31 PM
To: Ran Pang(=C1=AA=CD=A8=BC=AF=CD=C5=D6=D0=B9=FA=C1=AA=CD=A8=D1= =D0=BE=BF=D4=BA-=B1=BE=B2=BF) <pangran@chinaunicom.cn>
Cc: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org<= /a>>
Subject: Re: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889

 

Thanks all,

 

I'm hearing strong consensus that 8321 should be a PS = and somewhat weaker support for 8889, but no dissents.

 

If anyone has serious concerns, this would be a good t= ime to say so.

 

Hi Martin and WG,

 

The alt-mk described in RFC8321/8889 has been= deployed in some of our networks.

It works well.

So I would like the WG consider elevate them = to proposed standard.

 

Best regards,

Pang Ran.

 

From: Martin Duke

Date: 2021-08-13 02:26

Subject: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889

Hello IPPM,

 

(with AD hat on)

 

The IESG is currently considering

which is the implementation of RFC 8321 and 8889 techniques in an IPv6 framework. IIUC, this is very much how thing= s are "supposed to work" -- measurement definitions and methodolo= gy are done by IPPM, and the protocol-specific instantiations are in the re= spective working groups.

 

However, there are complications in that 8321 and 8889= are Experimental RFCs, and the ipv6-alt-mark draft is a Proposed Standard.= This has resulted in text from 8321/8889 going into ipv6-alt-mark so that = it can be elevated to PS. I'm told that, if the status quo holds, other drafts will reference ipv6-alt-mark t= o avoid a downref. This seems suboptimal.

 

I would prefer that we take one of the two followin= g actions:

1) If the WG has consensus that we are comfortable tha= t there is enough experience with 8321 and/or 8889 to elevate them to PS, I= can initiate a document action to change their status.

 

2) If there is no such consensus, ipv6-alt-mark should= be Experimental.

 

In either case, the draft can probably lose some of th= e duplicate text.

 

Logically, there is a third option -- that the bits of= the RFCs copied in the draft are mature enough to be a standard, but that = the others aren't. Though I'm not an expert, I doubt this is the case. But = if people believe it to be true, we'll have to come up with new options.

 

I would be grateful for the working group's thoughts a= bout these documents and the ideas therein. Is it reasonable for people to = read and reflect on this by 26 August (2 weeks from today?)

 

Thanks,

Martin

=C8=E7=B9=FB=C4=FA= =B4= =ED=CE=F3=BD=D3=CA=D5=C1=CB=B8=C3=D3=CA=BC=FE=A3=AC=C7=EB=CD=A8=B9=FD=B5=E7= =D7=D3=D3=CA=BC=FE=C1=A2=BC=B4=CD=A8=D6=AA=CE=D2=C3=C7=A1=A3=C7=EB=BB=D8=B8= =B4=D3=CA=BC=FE=B5=BD hqs-spmc@chinaunicom.cn=A3=AC=BC=B4=BF=C9=D2=D4=CD=CB=B6=A9=B4= =CB=D3=CA=BC=FE=A1=A3=CE=D2=C3=C7=BD=AB=C1=A2=BC=B4=BD=AB=C4=FA=B5=C4=D0=C5= =CF=A2=B4=D3=CE=D2=C3=C7=B5=C4=B7=A2=CB=CD=C4=BF=C2=BC=D6=D0=C9=BE=B3=FD=A1= =A3 If you have received this email in error please notify us immediately by e= -mail. Please reply to hqs-= spmc@chinaunicom.cn ,you can unsubscribe from this mail. We will i= mmediately remove your information from send catalogue of our.

 

<= /a>

Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono in= dirizzati esclusivamente alle persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dalla conoscenza di q= ueste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abbiate ricevuto que= sto documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di darne immediata comu= nicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione, Grazie.

This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileg= ed information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, = printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intende= d recipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sender by return e-mail, Thanks= .

Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =A8=A8 necessario.<= /b>

 

--_000_5251b86347cb4fc3b369eda020418cc6huaweicom_-- From nobody Wed Aug 25 15:02:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B710F3A15A1; Wed, 25 Aug 2021 15:02:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.552 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.552 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8PIsoUuv8wMx; Wed, 25 Aug 2021 15:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com [17.171.2.60]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4F053A15CE; Wed, 25 Aug 2021 15:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 17PM1aMR058663; Wed, 25 Aug 2021 15:02:22 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=from : message-id : content-type : mime-version : subject : date : in-reply-to : cc : to : references; s=20180706; bh=KcPIbIMsRdbyWZklQ22mzpsX8Obejp3F2k/ClQQWL9M=; b=VS2Wd3+4MjIcpAMIcaTMZNYdv2Ph7VsnnK0+A9LQBBRLQ+yAfsNwYL2FL/FfgyGUfcQp 7jLX3DPIK+g6V/9G8fxm7Gnwk2ciVGlws+qY8I9BfRQTUjfveDjJDffJ8SlrxgsR0HK9 tqFMd82njzMXrJ8JnfeTv60CH8ACsBD1lxWfsvzruXQ4oUBB/Bk2aKK+3XarGM3wFxJA SSiD8LoiO8I7jlNgkpywlBcm0rYNwOddPWCeWStF099e0aNpXrF8lR9R+/6q2bklTgdK RSem4G2NHhZ5EZo7fsQugyMzHmGD5wWZjVvJjcQ7htHmGE3DLGsnx+VfEKZ95F/xQYcn Mw== Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com [10.225.203.150]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com with ESMTP id 3anu5xab2p-2 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 25 Aug 2021 15:02:22 -0700 Received: from rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com (rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com [17.179.253.14]) by rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.9.20210415 64bit (built Apr 15 2021)) with ESMTPS id <0QYF00CK517XH860@rn-mailsvcp-mta-lapp02.rno.apple.com>; Wed, 25 Aug 2021 15:02:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from process_milters-daemon.rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.9.20210415 64bit (built Apr 15 2021)) id <0QYF00Z0016T6F00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com>; Wed, 25 Aug 2021 15:02:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: 7066a741105d37fbaa601e2a272cf55e X-Va-E-CD: e16e459ad87828a169ba395f875773b0 X-Va-R-CD: 650e750e9822dffbb09be5cdc80324e2 X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: 58e125ad-03aa-4bb2-a0c3-b97868792f19 X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: 7066a741105d37fbaa601e2a272cf55e X-V-E-CD: e16e459ad87828a169ba395f875773b0 X-V-R-CD: 650e750e9822dffbb09be5cdc80324e2 X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: bf22dfa4-1a98-401a-80af-d1e48a83fcbd X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-08-25_08:2021-08-25, 2021-08-25 signatures=0 Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [17.234.17.167]) by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.9.20210415 64bit (built Apr 15 2021)) with ESMTPSA id <0QYF00HC717X1I00@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp01.rno.apple.com>; Wed, 25 Aug 2021 15:02:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Tommy Pauly Message-id: <39223517-B29E-43CF-A774-C85720384E45@apple.com> Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D6E54BEF-A0AA-47D0-A5E4-8D4F6736AAF8" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3691.0.3\)) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 15:02:21 -0700 In-reply-to: Cc: "ippm@ietf.org" , IPPM Chairs , "ippm-ads@ietf.org" To: Martin Duke , "MORTON JR., AL" References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3691.0.3) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-08-25_08:2021-08-25, 2021-08-25 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Proposed changes to default settings in the Capacity metric load adjustment algorithm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 22:02:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D6E54BEF-A0AA-47D0-A5E4-8D4F6736AAF8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I haven=E2=80=99t seen any feedback here, but I think the change makes = sense. Al, I think you should be good to go ahead with this. Best, Tommy > On Aug 12, 2021, at 10:48 AM, Martin Duke = wrote: >=20 > Hello IPPM, >=20 > If you have any comments about this change, please send them to this = list no later than 24 August. >=20 > On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 3:01 PM MORTON JR., AL > wrote: > IPPM, >=20 > I want to point out that some recent results conducted by others = encouraged us to test some additional values for seq error threshold and = a wider value range of values for consecutive errored status (during = feedback intervals). We discovered that we would like to revise the = default values to make the load adjustment a little less-sensitive to = non-congestion-related loss and protect the fast ramp-up from ending = prematurely. For example, a very short burst of lost packets spanning = the boundary between two feedback intervals is currently sufficient to = end fast ramp-up. >=20 > The current table in 8.1 contains: > +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ > | Parameter | Default | Tested Range | Expected Safe Range | > | | | or values | (not entirely tested, | > | | | | other values NOT | > | | | | RECOMMENDED) | > +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ > ... > +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ > | sequence | 0 | 0, 100 | same as tested | > | error | | | | > | threshold | | | | > +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ > | consecutive | 2 | 2 | Use values >1 to | > | errored | | | avoid misinterpreting | > | status | | | transient loss | > +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ >=20 >=20 > The revised table rows would look like this: >=20 > +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ > | Parameter | Default | Tested Range | Expected Safe Range | > | | | or values | (not entirely tested, | > | | | | other values NOT | > | | | | RECOMMENDED) | > +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ > ... > +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ > | sequence | 10 | 0,1,5,10,100 | same as tested | > | error | | | | > | threshold | | | | > +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ > | consecutive | 3 | 2,3,4,5 | Use values >1 to | > | errored | | | avoid misinterpreting | > | status | | | transient loss | > +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ >=20 > Somehow, persistent non-congestion-related loss had mostly eluded our = previous tests. But our goal has been to provide default values that = will work in automated testing run by anyone in any implementation or = circumstances - not just ~expert users and those who run the udpst = utility. >=20 > So we'd like to change default values for: >=20 > seq error threshold from 0 to 10 > consecutive errored status from 2 to 3 >=20 > and update our tested range/values column as well. >=20 > Al >=20 --Apple-Mail=_D6E54BEF-A0AA-47D0-A5E4-8D4F6736AAF8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = haven=E2=80=99t seen any feedback here, but I think the change makes = sense.

Al, I think = you should be good to go ahead with this.

Best,
Tommy

On Aug 12, 2021, at 10:48 AM, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello IPPM,

If you have any comments about this = change, please send them to this list no later than 24 August.

On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 3:01 PM MORTON = JR., AL <acmorton@att.com> wrote:
IPPM,

I want to point out that some recent results conducted by others = encouraged us to test some additional values for seq error threshold and = a wider value range of values for consecutive errored status (during = feedback intervals).  We discovered that we would like to revise = the default values to make the load adjustment a little less-sensitive = to non-congestion-related loss and protect the fast ramp-up from ending = prematurely. For example, a very short burst of lost packets spanning = the boundary between two feedback intervals is currently sufficient to = end fast ramp-up.

The current table in 8.1 contains:
+--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+
| Parameter    | Default     | Tested Range | = Expected Safe Range   |
|              |      =        | or values    | (not entirely = tested, |
|              |      =        |            =   | other values NOT      |
|              |      =        |            =   | RECOMMENDED)          |
+--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+
...
+--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+
| sequence     | 0          =  | 0, 100       | same as tested    =     |
| error        |          =    |              |  =                     =  |
| threshold    |            =  |              |    =                   =  |
+--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+
| consecutive  | 2           | = 2            | Use values >1 to  =     |
| errored      |            =  |              | avoid = misinterpreting |
| status       |          =    |              | = transient loss        |
+--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+


The revised table rows would look like this:

+--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+
| Parameter    | Default     | Tested Range | = Expected Safe Range   |
|              |      =        | or values    | (not entirely = tested, |
|              |      =        |            =   | other values NOT      |
|              |      =        |            =   | RECOMMENDED)          |
+--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+
...
+--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+
| sequence     | 10          | = 0,1,5,10,100 | same as tested        |
| error        |          =    |              |  =                     =  |
| threshold    |            =  |              |    =                   =  |
+--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+
| consecutive  | 3           | = 2,3,4,5      | Use values >1 to      = |
| errored      |            =  |              | avoid = misinterpreting |
| status       |          =    |              | = transient loss        |
+--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+

Somehow, persistent non-congestion-related loss had mostly eluded our = previous tests. But our goal has been to provide default values that = will work in automated testing run by anyone in any implementation or = circumstances - not just ~expert users and those who run the udpst = utility.

So we'd like to change default values for:

  seq error threshold         from 0 to = 10
  consecutive errored status  from 2 to  3

and update our tested range/values column as well.

Al


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Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] =?utf-8?q?Proposed_changes_to_default_settings_in_the_Cap?= =?utf-8?q?acity_metric_load_adjustment_algorithm?= X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2021 22:22:44 -0000 --=====_001_next===== Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="=====_002_next=====" --=====_002_next===== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====_003_next=====" --=====_003_next===== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGksIE1hcnRpbiBldCBhbC4sDQoNCm15IGFwb2xvZ2llcyBmb3IgdGhlIGxhdGUgcmVzcG9uc2Uu DQoNCkkndmUgcmV2aWV3ZWQgdGhlIHByb3Bvc2VkIGNoYW5nZXMgaW4gdGhlIGRlZmF1bHQgdmFs dWVzLiBJIGFncmVlIHRoYXQgdGhlc2UgY2hhbmdlcyBtYWtlIHRoZSBvdXQtb2YtYm94IGNhcGFj aXR5IG1lYXN1cmVtZW50IGxlc3Mgc2Vuc2l0aXZlIHRvIGFuIG9jY2FzaW9uYWwgbm9uLWNvbmdl 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header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SaTbo4IQbFDa; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd35.google.com (mail-io1-xd35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92E7A3A1466; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd35.google.com with SMTP id e186so9983484iof.12; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:08:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yEtYQLRutWCRr1LjZ1MCE9CBUNhD/8JnjOyGI2FMnXU=; b=tmHpwyfEnWIrgXV+KT7nmYEB8bwixerCgkIdrUpOfstNKrJ2wJyAQS63rXoyp41wDn OCPKl5ABzF7Q9zjiIa/JVaTN9WUI/aBKgoQ4J3heqfiOiPQp47h+cbh9EI81/xHFw8mj 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ABdhPJx5QWwAUiKO5oLVlK83JUl5BkOqDDBTKzTjjtO19W6AqbTD6nVH8sC59xIDBsKqbNLCIx9n/OXNzkZaWR4naoY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:2001:: with SMTP id y1mr8858288iod.97.1630094914433; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:08:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202108260622279441120@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: <202108260622279441120@zte.com.cn> From: Martin Duke Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:08:23 -0700 Message-ID: To: Greg Mirsky Cc: "MORTON, ALFRED C (AL)" , ippm-ads@ietf.org, IPPM Chairs , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="000000000000538ee305ca900c79" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Proposed changes to default settings in the Capacity metric load adjustment algorithm X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 20:08:43 -0000 --000000000000538ee305ca900c79 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000538ee105ca900c78" --000000000000538ee105ca900c78 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable yes, let's make the change and proceed. Thanks On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 3:22 PM wrote: > Hi, Martin et al., > > my apologies for the late response. > > I've reviewed the proposed changes in the default values. I agree that > these changes make the out-of-box capacity measurement less sensitive to = an > occasional non-congestion-related loss of packets while preserving the > algorithm's fast ramp-up behavior. Clearly, a win-win update. I support i= t. > > > Regards, > > Greg Mirsky > > > Sr. Standardization Expert > =E9=A2=84=E7=A0=94=E6=A0=87=E5=87=86=E9=83=A8/=E6=9C=89=E7=BA=BF=E7=A0=94= =E7=A9=B6=E9=99=A2/=E6=9C=89=E7=BA=BF=E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E7=BB=8F=E8=90=A5= =E9=83=A8 Standard Preresearch Dept./Wireline Product R&D > Institute/Wireline Product Operation Division > > > > E: gregory.mirsky@ztetx.com > www.zte.com.cn > Original Mail > *Sender: *MartinDuke > *To: *MORTON JR., AL; > *CC: *ippm-ads@ietf.org;IPPM Chairs;ippm@ietf.org; > *Date: *2021/08/12 10:49 > *Subject: **Re: [ippm] Proposed changes to default settings in the > Capacity metric load adjustment algorithm* > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > Hello IPPM, > > If you have any comments about this change, please send them to this list > no later than 24 August. > > On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 3:01 PM MORTON JR., AL wrote: > >> IPPM, >> >> I want to point out that some recent results conducted by others >> encouraged us to test some additional values for seq error threshold and= a >> wider value range of values for consecutive errored status (during feedb= ack >> intervals). We discovered that we would like to revise the default valu= es >> to make the load adjustment a little less-sensitive to >> non-congestion-related loss and protect the fast ramp-up from ending >> prematurely. For example, a very short burst of lost packets spanning th= e >> boundary between two feedback intervals is currently sufficient to end f= ast >> ramp-up. >> >> The current table in 8.1 contains: >> +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ >> | Parameter | Default | Tested Range | Expected Safe Range | >> | | | or values | (not entirely tested, | >> | | | | other values NOT | >> | | | | RECOMMENDED) | >> +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ >> ... >> +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ >> | sequence | 0 | 0, 100 | same as tested | >> | error | | | | >> | threshold | | | | >> +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ >> | consecutive | 2 | 2 | Use values >1 to | >> | errored | | | avoid misinterpreting | >> | status | | | transient loss | >> +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ >> >> >> The revised table rows would look like this: >> >> +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ >> | Parameter | Default | Tested Range | Expected Safe Range | >> | | | or values | (not entirely tested, | >> | | | | other values NOT | >> | | | | RECOMMENDED) | >> +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ >> ... >> +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ >> | sequence | 10 | 0,1,5,10,100 | same as tested | >> | error | | | | >> | threshold | | | | >> +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ >> | consecutive | 3 | 2,3,4,5 | Use values >1 to | >> | errored | | | avoid misinterpreting | >> | status | | | transient loss | >> +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+ >> >> Somehow, persistent non-congestion-related loss had mostly eluded our >> previous tests. But our goal has been to provide default values that wil= l >> work in automated testing run by anyone in any implementation or >> circumstances - not just ~expert users and those who run the udpst utili= ty. >> >> So we'd like to change default values for: >> >> seq error threshold from 0 to 10 >> consecutive errored status from 2 to 3 >> >> and update our tested range/values column as well. >> >> Al >> >> > --000000000000538ee105ca900c78 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
yes, let's make the change and proceed.

Thanks

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 3:22 PM <gregory.mirsky@ztetx.com> wrote= :

Hi, Ma= rtin et al.,

my apologies for the late response.

I've revie= wed the proposed changes in the default values. I agree that these changes = make the out-of-box capacity measurement less sensitive to an occasional no= n-congestion-related loss of packets while preserving the algorithm's f= ast ramp-up behavior. Clearly, a win-win update. I support it.


Regards,

Greg Mirsk= y


Sr. Standardization= Expert
=E9=A2=84=E7=A0=94=E6=A0=87=E5=87=86= =E9=83=A8/=E6=9C=89=E7=BA=BF=E7=A0=94=E7=A9=B6=E9=99=A2/=E6=9C=89=E7=BA=BF= =E4=BA=A7=E5=93=81=E7=BB=8F=E8=90=A5=E9=83=A8 Standar= d Preresearch Dept./Wireline Product R&D Institute/Wireline Product Ope= ration Division


=

=

E: <= span id=3D"gmail-m_-3177052566855624053sign_email">gregory.mirsky@ztetx.com <= br>www.zte.com.cn
<= div style=3D"width:100%;height:28px;line-height:28px;background-color:rgb(2= 24,229,233);color:rgb(19,136,255);text-align:center">Original Mail
Sender:=C2= =A0MartinDuke
To:=C2= =A0MORTON JR., AL;
CC:=C2=A0ippm-ads@ietf.org;IPPM Chairs;ippm@ietf.org;
D= ate:=C2=A02021/08/12 10:49
Subject:= =C2=A0Re: [ippm] Proposed changes to default setting= s in the Capacity metric load adjustment algorithm
_______________________________________________
ippm=C2=A0m= ailing=C2=A0list
ippm= @ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm

Hello IPPM,

If you have any comments about th= is change, please send them to this list no later than 24 August.
=

= On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 3:01 PM MORTON JR., AL <acmorton@att.com> wrote:
IPPM,

I want to point= out that some recent results conducted by others encouraged us to test som= e additional values for seq error threshold and a wider value range of valu= es for consecutive errored status (during feedback intervals).=C2=A0 We dis= covered that we would like to revise the default values to make the load ad= justment a little less-sensitive to non-congestion-related loss and protect= the fast ramp-up from ending prematurely. For example, a very short burst = of lost packets spanning the boundary between two feedback intervals is cur= rently sufficient to end fast ramp-up.

The current table in 8.1 co= ntains:
+--------------+-------------+--------------+------------------= -----+
| Parameter=C2=A0 =C2=A0 | Default=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Tested R= ange | Expected Safe Range=C2=A0 =C2=A0|
|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| or = values=C2=A0 =C2=A0 | (not entirely tested, |
|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | other values NOT=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | RECOMMENDED)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
= +--------------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+
= ...
+--------------+-------------+--------------+----------------------= -+
| sequence=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| 0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0| 0, 100=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| same as tested=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 |
| error=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
| threshold=C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0|
+--------------+-------------+--------------+------------------= -----+
| consecutive=C2=A0 | 2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= | 2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | Use values >1 to=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
| errored=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |= avoid misinterpreting |
| status=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | transient loss=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
+----------= ----+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+


Th= e revised table rows would look like this:

+--------------+-------= ------+--------------+-----------------------+
| Parameter=C2=A0 =C2=A0= | Default=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Tested Range | Expected Safe Range=C2=A0 = =C2=A0|
|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| or values=C2=A0 =C2=A0 | (not entir= ely tested, |
|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | other values NOT=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
|=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | RECOMMENDE= D)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
+--------------+-------------+--= ------------+-----------------------+
...
+--------------+---------= ----+--------------+-----------------------+
| sequence=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0| 10=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | 0,1,5,10,100 | same as teste= d=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
| error=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
| threshold=C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|
+--------------+-------------+--------------+= -----------------------+
| consecutive=C2=A0 | 3=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| 2,3,4,5=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | Use values >1 to=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
| errored=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 | avoid misinterpreting |
| status=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 | transient loss=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |
+---= -----------+-------------+--------------+-----------------------+

= Somehow, persistent non-congestion-related loss had mostly eluded our previ= ous tests. But our goal has been to provide default values that will work i= n automated testing run by anyone in any implementation or circumstances - = not just ~expert users and those who run the udpst utility.

So we&= #39;d like to change default values for:

=C2=A0 seq error threshol= d=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0from 0 to 10
=C2=A0 consecutive erro= red status=C2=A0 from 2 to=C2=A0 3

and update our tested range/val= ues column as well.

Al


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Fri, 27 Aug 2021 20:35:15 +0000 From: "MORTON JR., AL" To: Martin Duke , Greg Mirsky CC: "ippm-ads@ietf.org" , IPPM Chairs , IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: [ippm] Proposed changes to default settings in the Capacity metric load adjustment algorithm Thread-Index: AQHXm39n3w/PE0gSgk+Vh0mykExoiKuHzlaQ Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 20:35:15 +0000 Message-ID: References: <202108260622279441120@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=att.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: e356105d-bbb0-4985-5df8-08d9699a2d1a x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SJ0PR02MB8452: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q7hXEv5JmgMw for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:37:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2c.google.com (mail-io1-xd2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE5A33A172C for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:37:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2c.google.com with SMTP id a13so10095442iol.5 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:37:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=MLV5j8LksvlDP3VkVaeIG36j6slKhGkQUph8gofgG28=; b=nCaXztxV67QH9Z4/5inYr5vnPZCI6I04/BQF8x2SUpEbNo8AHMceVqKoBivTCaG7UH l83ake9tkX44VW18DH+gdPLfa9QUimgYLq1xyb5xxR6ZINu9ktAAucT7csgIjI3JLE3M yU0YhjGBxfl13OHh8SUK/Kjb5YT5KE8awK0v+DWa5HbFz4op7cFUDu/TbURoYSi+MgHG rzAzzghLbVpoiFljt14q1BSA9pfNo900NBcZSzvXJbsAIywKUEmcNBujWCQNFi6SixP+ ObksyvtEX2OWtE86YQL4x3cOcCGvcGYQyQAOMhepatI26vzSq+IPyafI1hMmmn7fYevP mM5Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=MLV5j8LksvlDP3VkVaeIG36j6slKhGkQUph8gofgG28=; b=TGEFBzuypbxZ+puS/ohS4+Ff36XUpGo0g1mjJjyRR3faQWM7X+SPmOD1bgvBM0yWAo Lrozuo/lZp26D1ZwMCyIZuOHykBsn2i2Da8xpRW/MuZHoybjkdlQN9KzCaXyir+dKwlP Ci69y5G3tWojVuN+ezCjSZ2LRXgF/qoCrAMw7qkjhaI9U5+HhUWfcEgRmi4BChP1/D23 FQv0Epo/wkWxSYt6Pqv9cv6hUQdRtWn4XIQ2p75c6Li0zkwqOD7mmPOmI8qtJfze1GAz 9qt0AMvTfmLc++2DtNDs/ucLjre9UH7gvq00RdHgGwGGDAnYAq00JJH4UXOtt7O7oQuz D1kA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531bc0OTaaVkqtqBdzyGcrmH+N9Brrr08OcMsypMa/Szvg76EKdh 30FF0AaFlyg2KGNSVP8SHYUcESTChRgKdy3rbMc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzr7/CGOY0E8NREwig5sbD2vJYJ4ZE/g4czblfOGWjn2YfJtO8g9q0Yf4byS41YpyAbI1tSqAHOvpF029ewpWY= X-Received: by 2002:a02:cf34:: with SMTP id s20mr9910313jar.121.1630096639890; Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:37:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6c463f9daf414b9eaaa39e8db74898a0@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <6c463f9daf414b9eaaa39e8db74898a0@huawei.com> From: Martin Duke Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 13:37:08 -0700 Message-ID: To: Giuseppe Fioccola Cc: "MORTON JR., AL" , =?UTF-8?B?UmFuIFBhbmco6IGU6YCa6ZuG5Zui5Lit5Zu96IGU6YCa56CU56m26ZmiLeacrOmDqCk=?= , IETF IPPM WG , Erik Kline Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002b9cb405ca9073a0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2021 20:37:29 -0000 --0000000000002b9cb405ca9073a0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Thanks for all the feedback. I have launched an IETF last call for the status change: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/status-change-rfc8321-rfc8889-alt-mark-to-= ps/ As this call continues, it would be worthwhile for someone to inventory 8321 (and especially 8889) to see if there are any pieces that ought not to progress. We already have a volunteer to shepherd a bis document for either document, if need be. Martin On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:36 AM Giuseppe Fioccola < giuseppe.fioccola@huawei.com> wrote: > Hi Martin, > > In RFC 8321 there are only two alternatives in relation to the number of > bits: single marking and double marking. And both are implemented. > > As author of RFC 8321, I think that it can be simply elevated as is to PS > by slightly revising or by omitting some text that refers to the experime= nt > already done (e.g. section 5). > > > > Regards, > > > > Giuseppe > > > > *From:* ippm *On Behalf Of * Martin Duke > *Sent:* Monday, August 23, 2021 9:34 PM > *To:* MORTON JR., AL > *Cc:* Ran Pang(=E8=81=94=E9=80=9A=E9=9B=86=E5=9B=A2=E4=B8=AD=E5=9B=BD=E8= =81=94=E9=80=9A=E7=A0=94=E7=A9=B6=E9=99=A2-=E6=9C=AC=E9=83=A8) ; IETF IPPM WG < > ippm@ietf.org> > *Subject:* Re: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 > > > > Hi Al, this is my impression as well. In a perfect world I would ask the > WG to do a bis draft to inventory what is mature and to deprecate the bit= s > that haven't seen real deployment. If it turns out that it's all deployed= , > then we could do a simpler document action. > > > > Is this work that anyone is interested in taking on? > > > > On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 9:41 AM MORTON JR., AL wrote: > > Hi Martin, > > > > While I don=E2=80=99t have a serious concern, I=E2=80=99d prefer to eleva= te the parts of > 8321 that **were implemented** to PS. I think I read that some parts > were not implemented and I look to those who reported on their > implementations to say what they did. > > > > This thinning-out of non-implemented capabilities was a feature of > Standards Track Advancement processes in the past, so it makes sense to > apply it here as well. I realize this means a new draft, but the > processing could be accelerated to match the need. > > > > If the entire RFC 8321 was implemented, then this point is a non-issue. > > > > hope this helps, > > Al > > > > *From:* ippm *On Behalf Of *Martin Duke > *Sent:* Friday, August 20, 2021 12:31 PM > *To:* Ran Pang(=E8=81=94=E9=80=9A=E9=9B=86=E5=9B=A2=E4=B8=AD=E5=9B=BD=E8= =81=94=E9=80=9A=E7=A0=94=E7=A9=B6=E9=99=A2-=E6=9C=AC=E9=83=A8) > *Cc:* IETF IPPM WG > *Subject:* Re: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 > > > > Thanks all, > > > > I'm hearing strong consensus that 8321 should be a PS and somewhat weaker > support for 8889, but no dissents. > > > > If anyone has serious concerns, this would be a good time to say so. > > > > On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 3:02 AM Ran Pang(=E8=81=94=E9=80=9A=E9=9B=86=E5= =9B=A2=E4=B8=AD=E5=9B=BD=E8=81=94=E9=80=9A=E7=A0=94=E7=A9=B6=E9=99=A2-=E6= =9C=AC=E9=83=A8) < > pangran@chinaunicom.cn> wrote: > > Hi Martin and WG, > > > > The alt-mk described in RFC8321/8889 has been deployed in some of our > networks. > > It works well. > > So I would like the WG consider elevate them to proposed standard. > > > > Best regards, > > Pang Ran. > > > > *From:* Martin Duke > > *Date:* 2021-08-13 02:26 > > *To:* IETF IPPM WG > > *Subject:* [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 > > Hello IPPM, > > > > (with AD hat on) > > > > The IESG is currently considering > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark-08 > > > which is the implementation of RFC 8321 > > and 8889 > > techniques in an IPv6 framework. IIUC, this is very much how things are > "supposed to work" -- measurement definitions and methodology are done by > IPPM, and the protocol-specific instantiations are in the respective > working groups. > > > > However, there are complications in that 8321 and 8889 are Experimental > RFCs, and the ipv6-alt-mark draft is a Proposed Standard. This has result= ed > in text from 8321/8889 going into ipv6-alt-mark so that it can be elevate= d > to PS. I'm told that, if the status quo holds, other drafts will referenc= e > ipv6-alt-mark to avoid a downref. This seems suboptimal. > > > > I would prefer that *we take one of the two following actions*: > > 1) If the WG has consensus that we are comfortable that there is enough > experience with 8321 and/or 8889 to elevate them to PS, I can initiate a > document action to change their status. > > > > 2) If there is no such consensus, ipv6-alt-mark should be Experimental. > > > > In either case, the draft can probably lose some of the duplicate text. > > > > Logically, there is a third option -- that the bits of the RFCs copied in > the draft are mature enough to be a standard, but that the others aren't. > Though I'm not an expert, I doubt this is the case. But if people believe > it to be true, we'll have to come up with new options. > > > > I would be grateful for the working group's thoughts about these document= s > and the ideas therein. Is it reasonable for people to read and reflect on > this by 26 August (2 weeks from today?) > > > > Thanks, > > Martin > > =E5=A6=82=E6=9E=9C=E6=82=A8=E9=94=99=E8=AF=AF=E6=8E=A5=E6=94=B6=E4=BA=86= =E8=AF=A5=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=EF=BC=8C=E8=AF=B7=E9=80=9A=E8=BF=87=E7=94=B5=E5= =AD=90=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E7=AB=8B=E5=8D=B3=E9=80=9A=E7=9F=A5=E6=88=91=E4=BB= =AC=E3=80=82=E8=AF=B7=E5=9B=9E=E5=A4=8D=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=88=B0 hqs-spmc= @chinaunicom.cn=EF=BC=8C=E5=8D=B3=E5=8F=AF=E4=BB=A5=E9=80=80 > =E8=AE=A2=E6=AD=A4=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E3=80=82=E6=88=91=E4=BB=AC=E5=B0=86= =E7=AB=8B=E5=8D=B3=E5=B0=86=E6=82=A8=E7=9A=84=E4=BF=A1=E6=81=AF=E4=BB=8E=E6= =88=91=E4=BB=AC=E7=9A=84=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E7=9B=AE=E5=BD=95=E4=B8=AD=E5=88= =A0=E9=99=A4=E3=80=82 If you have received this email in error > please notify us immediately by e-mail. Please reply to > hqs-spmc@chinaunicom.cn ,you can unsubscribe from this mail. We will > immediately remove your information from send catalogue of our. > > --0000000000002b9cb405ca9073a0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,

Thanks for all the f= eedback.

I have launched an IETF last call for the= status change:

= As this call continues, it would be worthwhile for someone to inventory 832= 1 (and especially 8889) to see if there are any pieces that ought not to pr= ogress. We already have a volunteer to shepherd a bis document for either d= ocument, if need be.

Martin


On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 1:36 AM Giuseppe Fioccola <giuseppe.fioccola@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi Martin,

In RFC 8321 there are only two alternatives in relat= ion to the number of bits: single marking and double marking. And both are = implemented.

As author of RFC 8321, I think that it can be simply= elevated as is to PS by slightly revising or by omitting some text that re= fers to the experiment already done (e.g. section 5).

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Giuseppe

=C2=A0

From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of = Martin Duke
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 9:34 PM
To: MORTON JR., AL <acmorton@att.com>
Cc: Ran Pang(=E8=81=94=E9=80=9A=E9=9B=86=E5=9B=A2=E4=B8=AD=E5= =9B=BD=E8=81=94=E9=80=9A=E7=A0=94=E7=A9=B6=E9=99=A2-=E6=9C=AC= =E9=83=A8) <pangran@chinaunicom.cn>; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889

=C2=A0

Hi Al, this is my impression as well. In a perfect w= orld I would ask the WG to do a bis draft to inventory what is mature and t= o deprecate the bits that haven't seen real deployment. If it turns out= that it's all deployed, then we could do a simpler document action.

=C2=A0

Is this work that anyone is interested in taking on?=

=C2=A0

On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 9:41 AM MORTON JR., AL <<= a href=3D"mailto:acmorton@att.com" target=3D"_blank">acmorton@att.com&g= t; wrote:

= Hi Martin,

= =C2=A0

= While I don=E2=80=99t have a serious concern, I=E2=80=99d prefer to elevate= the parts of 8321 that *were implemented* to PS.=C2=A0 I think I re= ad that some parts were not implemented and I look to those who reported on their = implementations to say what they did.

= =C2=A0

= This thinning-out of non-implemented capabilities was a feature of Standard= s Track Advancement processes in the past, so it makes sense to apply it here as well.=C2=A0 I realize this means a new draft, but the pro= cessing could be accelerated to match the need.

= =C2=A0

= If the entire RFC 8321 was implemented, then this point is a non-issue.

= =C2=A0

= hope this helps,

= Al

= =C2=A0

From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Martin Duke
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2021 12:31 PM
To: Ran Pang(=E8=81=94=E9=80=9A=E9=9B=86=E5=9B=A2=E4=B8=AD= =E5=9B=BD=E8=81=94=E9=80=9A=E7=A0=94=E7=A9=B6=E9=99=A2-=E6=9C=AC=E9=83=A8) <pangr= an@chinaunicom.cn>
Cc: IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889

=C2=A0

Thanks all,

=C2=A0

I'm hearing strong consensus that 8321 should be a PS and somewhat weak= er support for 8889, but no dissents.

=C2=A0

If anyone has serious concerns, this would be a good time to say so.=

=C2=A0

On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 3:02 AM Ran Pang(=E8=81=94=E9=80=9A=E9=9B= =86=E5=9B=A2=E4=B8=AD=E5=9B=BD=E8=81=94=E9=80=9A=E7=A0=94=E7=A9=B6=E9=99=A2= -= =E6=9C=AC=E9=83=A8) <pangran@chinaunicom.cn> wrote:

Hi Martin and WG,

=C2=A0

The alt-mk described in RFC8321/8889 has been deploy= ed in some of our networks.

It works well.

So I would like the WG consider elevate them to prop= osed standard.

=C2=A0

Best regards,

Pang Ran.

=C2=A0

From:=C2= =A0Martin Duke

Date:=C2= =A02021-08-13=C2=A002:26

To:=C2=A0= IETF IPPM WG

Subject:= =C2=A0[ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889

Hello IPPM,

=C2=A0

(with AD hat on)

=C2=A0

The IESG is currently considering

which is the implementation of RFC 8321 and 8889 techniques in an IPv6 framework. IIUC, this is very much how thing= s are "supposed to work" -- measurement definitions and methodolo= gy are done by IPPM, and the protocol-specific instantiations are in the re= spective working groups.

=C2=A0

However, there are complications in that 8321 and 8889 are Experimental RFC= s, and the ipv6-alt-mark draft is a Proposed Standard. This has resulted in= text from 8321/8889 going into ipv6-alt-mark so that it can be elevated to= PS. I'm told that, if the status quo holds, other drafts will reference ipv6-alt-mark to avoid a downref. T= his seems suboptimal.

=C2=A0

I would prefer that we take one of the two following actions:=

1) If the WG has consensus that we are comfortable that there is enough exp= erience with 8321 and/or 8889 to elevate them to PS, I can initiate a docum= ent action to change their status.

=C2=A0

2) If there is no such consensus, ipv6-alt-mark should be Experimental.<= /u>

=C2=A0

In either case, the draft can probably lose some of the duplicate text.<= /u>

=C2=A0

Logically, there is a third option -- that the bits of the RFCs copied in t= he draft are mature enough to be a standard, but that the others aren't= . Though I'm not an expert, I doubt this is the case. But if people bel= ieve it to be true, we'll have to come up with new options.

=C2=A0

I would be grateful for the working group's thoughts about these docume= nts and the ideas therein. Is it reasonable for people to read and reflect = on this by 26 August (2 weeks from today?)

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Martin

=E5=A6=82= =E6=9E=9C=E6=82=A8=E9=94=99=E8=AF=AF=E6=8E=A5=E6=94=B6=E4= =BA=86=E8=AF=A5=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=EF=BC=8C=E8=AF=B7=E9=80=9A=E8=BF=87=E7=94= =B5=E5=AD=90=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E7=AB=8B=E5=8D=B3=E9=80=9A=E7=9F=A5=E6=88=91= =E4=BB=AC=E3=80=82=E8=AF=B7=E5=9B=9E=E5=A4=8D=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=88=B0=C2=A0hqs-= spmc@chinaunicom.cn=EF=BC=8C=E5=8D=B3=E5=8F=AF=E4=BB=A5=E9=80=80= =E8=AE=A2=E6=AD=A4=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E3=80=82=E6=88=91=E4=BB=AC=E5=B0=86=E7= =AB=8B=E5=8D=B3=E5=B0=86=E6=82=A8=E7=9A=84=E4=BF=A1=E6=81=AF=E4=BB=8E=E6=88= =91=E4=BB=AC=E7=9A=84=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E7=9B=AE=E5=BD=95=E4=B8=AD=E5=88=A0= =E9=99=A4=E3=80=82 If you have received this email in error please notify us immediately by e= -mail. Please reply to=C2=A0hqs-spmc@chinaunicom.cn=C2=A0,you can unsubscribe from th= is mail. We will immediately remove your information from send catalogue of our.

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certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2561B3A11C4 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 00:18:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fraeml710-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.201]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4GxSZP6tYBz67P1d; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 15:17:01 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.33) by fraeml710-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.59) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2308.8; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 09:18:30 +0200 Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) by fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) with mapi id 15.01.2308.008; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 09:18:30 +0200 From: Giuseppe Fioccola To: Martin Duke CC: "MORTON JR., AL" , =?utf-8?B?UmFuIFBhbmco6IGU6YCa6ZuG5Zui5Lit5Zu96IGU6YCa56CU56m26ZmiLQ==?= =?utf-8?B?5pys6YOoKQ==?= , IETF IPPM WG , Erik Kline Thread-Topic: [ippm] RFC 8321 and 8889 Thread-Index: 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Reply-To: ippm@ietf.org Message-ID: <163021475243.30537.13315503366226024825@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2021 22:25:52 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-06.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 05:25:53 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF. Title : In-situ OAM Loopback and Active Flags Authors : Tal Mizrahi Frank Brockners Shwetha Bhandari Ramesh Sivakolundu Carlos Pignataro Aviv Kfir Barak Gafni Mickey Spiegel Jennifer Lemon Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-06.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2021-08-28 Abstract: In-situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (IOAM) records operational and telemetry information in packets while they traverse a path between two points in the network. This document defines two new flags in the IOAM Trace Option headers, specifically the the Loopback and Active flags. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags/ There is also an htmlized version available at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-06 Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sat Aug 28 22:28:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A09B3A3407; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 22:28:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gR5RIWRaat4I; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 22:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x333.google.com (mail-wm1-x333.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::333]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 81B523A3405; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 22:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x333.google.com with SMTP id f9-20020a05600c1549b029025b0f5d8c6cso12255749wmg.4; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 22:28:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=PIt6faJrn0yM9tqxWCuVB0F7W2fFe3VyYdzEm9DYgQk=; b=PcGeyyPnk0Wfz5FtQhG5pSVFKR+E8J6teApM5DOJfpCPG/GZTTKjslPex8tvNEMoQm EyELHy3O2ELOrBKV2oDJ5kjhs9Tx5ZWb2i9rw2iPzDsyM5FjXrwmmfG78yuZFZc9pHXj e+UJiP9Kf+vJlgnHuCYyuKQfur7qKXy54011XoU4uZkLJAz373xAeX+Q4DRIrHKJRiyj Ad+HBl60xRbvRgIPtuigTLAuBCsfHJ6vFzgMtM7ecYGh87n2VxpLqZQfo8bNgUH7PBwm 7QBAtWdj5pluK81t/ww15W0RwLUvM5TVkA+T36U8DOmgql2ZY1xIUp7Wh9g+3o4d7hze a5Gg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=PIt6faJrn0yM9tqxWCuVB0F7W2fFe3VyYdzEm9DYgQk=; b=MwQV1fu8Hg2SFoc7fJZfg3+E4s1L/usgNHbjVFImzZjqROu4yB2cCF3Nj1WBE6wvAZ 852A6200FgxqPDYBmCcRWAXmLVOl6gQYtPCXQJZQ1bygQCO1rJoPiI1gMKcLfYNlpwQf ah6HFJXGfd+W3NDAndw2kS3/ZJz3eKpY06WSw6qzBUr1EEANo/+yDQiU8svTAIZA0d+t jXpZB72Gb7vAy7qIUIIi8C9ESnwsqT+V701xnmDdVdmdzxMNMG6j6JiWSQKgW0k/cS4q UujWAfcLZjPupzqG6R/8hNaZY5cLSHv3try7C8/Tvgel5NDFjbNmN5+i9bwODVXcW/xD RrAg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531tQFmE1s2ZJUIRMrMCnXg8Dp+a7xInNPn6hLuTd1hmALswcMDk iPhRD0otSS9I4Yqtc+rz9MHptNutNPSQ8M4gl96XMiOsnRpjKQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzCXZ7eXU0HxcbsOlDcsxcrKejtesYR/R3oa2JaTIo1OnmjcaLkZSGdaUV0059Etj7Igbxf6Gffn5DuLnqH6z4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:6c5:: with SMTP id b5mr16230876wmn.70.1630214900563; Sat, 28 Aug 2021 22:28:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <163021475275.30537.16561914516519860104@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <163021475275.30537.16561914516519860104@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Tal Mizrahi Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 08:28:09 +0300 Message-ID: To: IETF IPPM WG , IPPM Chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000e435e05caabfc40" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-06.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2021 05:28:32 -0000 --0000000000000e435e05caabfc40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Version 06 includes a few editorial updates that were suggested by Tommy. Cheers, Tal. On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 8:25 AM wrote: > > A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-06.txt > has been successfully submitted by Tal Mizrahi and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags > Revision: 06 > Title: In-situ OAM Loopback and Active Flags > Document date: 2021-08-28 > Group: ippm > Pages: 13 > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-06.txt > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags/ > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags > Diff: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-06 > > Abstract: > In-situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (IOAM) records > operational and telemetry information in packets while they traverse > a path between two points in the network. This document defines two > new flags in the IOAM Trace Option headers, specifically the the > Loopback and Active flags. > > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > --0000000000000e435e05caabfc40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

Version 06 includes a fe= w editorial updates that were suggested by Tommy.

= Cheers,
Tal.

On Sun, Aug 29, 2021 at 8:25 AM <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:

A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-06.txt
has been successfully submitted by Tal Mizrahi and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A006
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 In-situ OAM Loopback and Active Fl= ags
Document date:=C2=A0 2021-08-28
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ippm
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 13
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-06.t= xt
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags/
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags
Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-= 06

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0In-situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (IOAM) rec= ords
=C2=A0 =C2=A0operational and telemetry information in packets while they tr= averse
=C2=A0 =C2=A0a path between two points in the network.=C2=A0 This document = defines two
=C2=A0 =C2=A0new flags in the IOAM Trace Option headers, specifically the t= he
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Loopback and Active flags.




The IETF Secretariat


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PC9kaXY+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_3e349603cc0342dc89b686664f160502huaweicom_-- From nobody Mon Aug 30 13:58:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4829C3A2223 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2021 13:58:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.552 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.552 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.452, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XzsQjhvUBWl2 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 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Aug 2021 13:57:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: de279c0840622e930446fe69a11c94de X-Va-E-CD: 2c9eab536ba46e9236b487b2520d1cad X-Va-R-CD: c23b1392f199d9c529659770d86bb703 X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: 7319f189-695e-419a-a664-a6f1bb36f842 X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: de279c0840622e930446fe69a11c94de X-V-E-CD: 2c9eab536ba46e9236b487b2520d1cad X-V-R-CD: c23b1392f199d9c529659770d86bb703 X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: afcbc9d2-342f-44c8-b158-6b00011bb522 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-08-30_06:2021-08-30, 2021-08-30 signatures=0 Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [17.234.59.131]) by rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.1.0.9.20210415 64bit (built Apr 15 2021)) with ESMTPSA id <0QYO009977KF7900@rn-mailsvcp-mmp-lapp04.rno.apple.com> for ippm@ietf.org; Mon, 30 Aug 2021 13:57:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Tommy Pauly Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F5EAD5BE-475D-455C-B391-D2473AC6C334" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3691.0.3\)) Message-id: Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 13:57:51 -0700 To: "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3691.0.3) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.790 definitions=2021-08-30_06:2021-08-30, 2021-08-30 signatures=0 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] WGLC for IOAM Flags and Direct Exports X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 20:58:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F5EAD5BE-475D-455C-B391-D2473AC6C334 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello IPPM, This email starts a Working Group Last Call on two related IOAM = documents, draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags and = draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export. In-situ OAM Loopback and Active Flags https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags/ = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags-06 = In-situ OAM Direct Exporting https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export/ = = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export-0= 6 = Please provide feedback by replying to this email with your reviews and = if you think these documents are ready to progress, by Wednesday, = September 15. Best, Tommy & Ian --Apple-Mail=_F5EAD5BE-475D-455C-B391-D2473AC6C334 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Hello IPPM,

This email starts a Working Group Last Call on two related = IOAM documents, draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags = and draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export.

In-situ OAM Loopback and Active = Flags
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flags/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-flag= s-06

In-situ OAM Direct Exporting
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-ex= port/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-dire= ct-export-06

Please provide feedback by replying to this email with your = reviews and if you think these documents are ready to progress, by Wednesday, September 15.

Best,
Tommy & = Ian

= --Apple-Mail=_F5EAD5BE-475D-455C-B391-D2473AC6C334--