From nobody Wed Dec 1 08:25:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 833ED3A0989 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 08:25:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QTb2eHqs5-0M for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 08:25:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua1-x936.google.com (mail-ua1-x936.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::936]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 35C073A0954 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 08:25:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua1-x936.google.com with SMTP id w23so50186001uao.5 for ; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 08:25:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=kKdIr6BHAKWoSS7X1/z0wtYDjyBVELy64xKL83sJlLs=; b=VB0Tayl0kxLpEWrS1yHucJgXnhlu4ccLjrjqIo3rlV/xgMmXpmf2ui8cgv2oDEi6z9 UtAbLMvEsTZNPIugt7idJqr/XcQjCe+2ZB+lSrVfMOHwHgrf9AmM4+5tW4O6zJUmd/xC PEFabCDL6pHdxn0qixspr4kZhXM5mmPyHIe09OS6XWm/IPEGz7TERMKVKVxabiI9D0sR QTsLbMaYoC3ODyh8Jh50JvhNLfI85CmjwasjwHxrbp73UZOsNkjpStOkrLMzXMngDDhD lmv/d24f7u9CpHt/KxkHfeKQBX++xYQfwb0Kz3u8MHaprfW1Cd5XstIezTb4SlPU/c7L BuiA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=kKdIr6BHAKWoSS7X1/z0wtYDjyBVELy64xKL83sJlLs=; b=7udS1u7bpUhOUpoQSBKSJbHPdgDtmsqee7rwvt2OUSu/HLuYChFgTzwETBevGVngYe xgEhC6vAQaqcxJsTW4WGlKWW7T4XezY28DJfp18NE2HkfdvEMvMEvyoYfGDVaa8dTscJ gGoYgpEhT2Tb0NATFGg7yXNyN8Hv7PQibVwYk+HG8AYDlvPHX01emLRpm/u+wJTLaNet hPNDXJiMcrKbhlqT7dWj73VScyewRCSBp6zDJR4m0hnO0jYolo8pliZ08u1YQ9oWauDh jDomVQKJlagE7pZuK2ErsJLuEYS8gEvKewt5siQ8gXYLrWa/Jipniayu4z2OLLrdUK0g Wvqw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533x5dPLFrC2o4UFvdfBJT2zE+nJE4ODt4Drf+QWkzM24OrEBWDl AJnBxNqcM0cUNv58nQylLFl6++snJ41sMTw6MiwuP0xD X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxmvMBf5PyUPCPWP1xhZUF/6QrrRKnniNuigTcoLETWdpw9sGiJgSQhKYOA2Pq80m5GThVhHY3Whzvj98swyV4= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f415:: with SMTP id p21mr9404956vsn.50.1638375931408; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 08:25:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20211128083933.8FC65622CF1@rfc-editor.org> In-Reply-To: From: Martin Duke Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 08:25:20 -0800 Message-ID: To: "MORTON JR., AL" Cc: RFC Errata System , "nmalykh@ieee.org" , "D'SOUZA, KEVIN L" , "ippm@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006675bf05d2181f2a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC8912 (6758) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2021 16:25:39 -0000 --0000000000006675bf05d2181f2a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Al, can you rephrase this? The proposed text has 9 digits (8 zeros and a 1) to the right of the decimal place. On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 12:07 PM MORTON JR., AL wrote: > Sorry, but the original text is what we intended. > > "fraction digits = 9" refers to the digits to the right of the decimal > place. > > Al > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RFC Errata System > > Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2021 3:40 AM > > To: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org > > Cc: nmalykh@ieee.org; MORTON JR., AL ; > marcelo@it.uc3m.es; > > philip.eardley@bt.com; D'SOUZA, KEVIN L ; ippm@ietf.org > > Subject: [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC8912 (6758) > > > > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC8912, "Initial > > Performance Metrics Registry Entries". > > > > -------------------------------------- > > You may review the report below and at: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.rfc- > > > editor.org/errata/eid6758__;!!BhdT!0sOKD4K1QvzSFuTr19kOCaZcs09P3P_d2_LwuoM9aOr > > 6gv_f8a6dgdeGztmA$ > > > > -------------------------------------- > > Type: Editorial > > Reported by: Nikolai Malykh > > > > Section: 4.4.2 > > > > Original Text > > ------------- > > Percent_LossRatio: The numeric value of the result is expressed in > > units of lost packets to total packets times 100%, as a positive > > value of type decimal64 with fraction digits = 9 (see Section 9.3 > > of [RFC6020]) with a resolution of 0.0000000001. > > > > > > > > Corrected Text > > -------------- > > Percent_LossRatio: The numeric value of the result is expressed in > > units of lost packets to total packets times 100%, as a positive > > value of type decimal64 with fraction digits = 9 (see Section 9.3 > > of [RFC6020]) with a resolution of 0.000000001. > > > > > > > > Notes > > ----- > > An extra 0 in the value of the resolution of the loss ratio. > > > > The error is repeated in sections 7.4.2.6, 8.4.2.6, 9.4.2.4 > > > > Instructions: > > ------------- > > This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use > > "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a > > decision is reached, the verifying party can log in to change the status > and > > edit the report, if necessary. > > > > -------------------------------------- > > RFC8912 (draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry-16) > > -------------------------------------- > > Title : Initial Performance Metrics Registry Entries > > Publication Date : November 2021 > > Author(s) : A. Morton, M. Bagnulo, P. Eardley, K. D'Souza > > Category : PROPOSED STANDARD > > Source : IP Performance Measurement > > Area : Transport > > Stream : IETF > > Verifying Party : IESG > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > --0000000000006675bf05d2181f2a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Al, can you rephrase this? The proposed text has 9 digits = (8 zeros and a 1) to the right of the decimal place.

On Tue, Nov 30, 202= 1 at 12:07 PM MORTON JR., AL <acmort= on@att.com> wrote:
Sorry, but the original text is what we intended.

"fraction digits =3D 9" refers to the digits to the right of the = decimal place.

Al

> -----Original Message-----
> From: RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2021 3:40 AM
> To: rfc= -editor@rfc-editor.org
> Cc: nmalykh@ieee= .org; MORTON JR., AL <acmorton@att.com>; marcelo@it.uc3m.es;
> philip.eard= ley@bt.com; D'SOUZA, KEVIN L <kd6913@att.com>; ippm@ietf.org
> Subject: [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC8912 (6758)
>
> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC8912, "Init= ial
> Performance Metrics Registry Entries".
>
> --------------------------------------
> You may review the report below and at:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.rfc- > editor.org= /errata/eid6758__;!!BhdT!0sOKD4K1QvzSFuTr19kOCaZcs09P3P_d2_LwuoM9aOr > 6gv_f8a6dgdeGztmA$
>
> --------------------------------------
> Type: Editorial
> Reported by: Nikolai Malykh <nmalykh@ieee.org>
>
> Section: 4.4.2
>
> Original Text
> -------------
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Percent_LossRatio:=C2=A0 The numeric value of the result = is expressed in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0units of lost packets to total packets times= 100%, as a positive
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0value of type decimal64 with fraction digits= =3D 9 (see Section 9.3
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of [RFC6020]) with a resolution of 0.0000000= 001.
>
>
>
> Corrected Text
> --------------
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Percent_LossRatio:=C2=A0 The numeric value of the result = is expressed in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0units of lost packets to total packets times= 100%, as a positive
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0value of type decimal64 with fraction digits= =3D 9 (see Section 9.3
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of [RFC6020]) with a resolution of 0.0000000= 01.
>
>
>
> Notes
> -----
> An extra 0 in the value of the resolution of the loss ratio.
>
> The error is repeated in sections 7.4.2.6, 8.4.2.6, 9.4.2.4
>
> Instructions:
> -------------
> This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary= , please use
> "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or reje= cted. When a
> decision is reached, the verifying party can log in to change the stat= us and
> edit the report, if necessary.
>
> --------------------------------------
> RFC8912 (draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry-16)
> --------------------------------------
> Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Initial = Performance Metrics Registry Entries
> Publication Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 : November 2021
> Author(s)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: A. Morton, M. Bagn= ulo, P. Eardley, K. D'Souza
> Category=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : PROPOSED STANDARD<= br> > Source=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : IP Performanc= e Measurement
> Area=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Transpor= t
> Stream=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : IETF
> Verifying Party=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: IESG
_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
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URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YGLHmXCFHLkq; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 09:10:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88CEB3A03F7; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 09:10:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 499) id 698F6E54B1; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 09:10:56 -0800 (PST) To: nmalykh@ieee.org, acmorton@att.com, marcelo@it.uc3m.es, philip.eardley@bt.com, kld@att.com From: RFC Errata System Cc: martin.h.duke@gmail.com, iesg@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20211201171056.698F6E54B1@rfc-editor.org> Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 09:10:56 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] [Errata Verified] RFC8912 (6758) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2021 17:11:02 -0000 The following errata report has been verified for RFC8912, "Initial Performance Metrics Registry Entries". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6758 -------------------------------------- Status: Verified Type: Editorial Reported by: Nikolai Malykh Date Reported: 2021-11-28 Verified by: Martin Duke (IESG) Section: 4.4.2 Original Text ------------- Percent_LossRatio: The numeric value of the result is expressed in units of lost packets to total packets times 100%, as a positive value of type decimal64 with fraction digits = 9 (see Section 9.3 of [RFC6020]) with a resolution of 0.0000000001. Corrected Text -------------- Percent_LossRatio: The numeric value of the result is expressed in units of lost packets to total packets times 100%, as a positive value of type decimal64 with fraction digits = 9 (see Section 9.3 of [RFC6020]) with a resolution of 0.000000001. Notes ----- An extra 0 in the value of the resolution of the loss ratio. The error is repeated in sections 7.4.2.6, 8.4.2.6, 9.4.2.4 -------------------------------------- RFC8912 (draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry-16) -------------------------------------- Title : Initial Performance Metrics Registry Entries Publication Date : November 2021 Author(s) : A. Morton, M. Bagnulo, P. Eardley, K. D'Souza Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : IP Performance Measurement Area : Transport Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Wed Dec 1 09:29:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 323A53A07AC for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 09:29:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BPvS7eD5Qafd for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 09:29:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua1-x933.google.com (mail-ua1-x933.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::933]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 807FD3A07AB for ; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 09:29:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua1-x933.google.com with SMTP id r15so50626636uao.3 for ; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 09:29:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Lo9UcimlIh4MH5U9e+jCTNuM30l8Wi/fVGWriLU+fI8=; b=pNVGkG+y9EvLRs9gKEvORLeVzlu83V3lU2yk8G5MSuMSemlGgJGW3YPZzwNgv5SFs9 boU6KhKAEb7pmIi5xfgmGLtR3PsdYeiTWdnZj98U1m+9YX2SnKhfDrr6P/496h9oD0D8 7zidS1Y8jFabO+7jGzimth8Sk1gsznGxe0KTW5EaARvuy6hkAGD2nYvEbaDHC/bHFck3 TeyZWWnFqYut7r+UK4rSGhDUEsK7lXacggCYgD/BqFPlfZzc5fO7Ik1+Twe8dbqbGyx4 STt3OI/vV5loeYi2Ptqwpev9Fb3MbeqvSgyE9+Ma5sxXNRRCD9Dei4bUmD2FpYmaI3nj ilPw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Lo9UcimlIh4MH5U9e+jCTNuM30l8Wi/fVGWriLU+fI8=; b=3uGusG4ncm3xG51yRXwbyK3wKNI+qd1jCe+7fMzmImrxClsWTa2sWYvZD25PdDKC7c QRx6txDXV9LUB5GN0yu4r+GLgTnrAI57AuAOc+hmQQN2KccSP44PPsq2g4rYPyAWi98r i2btieIY7m+5kcjR5LPTecLCfemFObxOAeHPuZ+PniYmZxEVXtMBzTrfotkEBFx9ypNW +7jbTQR0dHfz7wp/zJkpp2R9p+zRMJujtUI5PYNlLgOL9Uf52ZNPIJeKWlzPiHDnxN7L e8nQAJJjagjuirKKOKGB7GvGGMVWTjIisEthiM7OC+HTx9BQUzycBH66Su0Slr3u7+AA 5HOg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530dtjBvtyzv+ku8C40BMV4GHLM6UEtVCZR+0+wy/pbkmERDaAfg I2xYUYuRjUbRJHoLaBwhK7TFX1enpg+vPZdfw8YPqt9q X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyzd47Ny2Fsk0ZiZQiAJE56OUoHkovsJjHd522xLSZrV5sZvu7z+B4d/csw6fQhcNmNaS6EqQHVd5eSJzmxSaE= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f950:: with SMTP id u16mr9306786vsq.68.1638379767428; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 09:29:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20211128083933.8FC65622CF1@rfc-editor.org> In-Reply-To: From: Martin Duke Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 09:29:16 -0800 Message-ID: To: "MORTON JR., AL" Cc: RFC Errata System , "nmalykh@ieee.org" , "D'SOUZA, KEVIN L" , "ippm@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000b7a2505d219045a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC8912 (6758) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2021 17:29:34 -0000 --0000000000000b7a2505d219045a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" OK, errata verified On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 8:32 AM MORTON JR., AL wrote: > So, I miss-counted the zeroes? I guess my vision is going for stuff like > this, because I tried to count again yesterday and the original looked ok... > > > > It should be 9 digits (8 zeros and a 1) to the right of the decimal place. > > Al > > > > *From:* Martin Duke > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 1, 2021 11:25 AM > *To:* MORTON JR., AL > *Cc:* RFC Errata System ; nmalykh@ieee.org; > D'SOUZA, KEVIN L ; ippm@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [ippm] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC8912 (6758) > > > > Al, can you rephrase this? The proposed text has 9 digits (8 zeros and a > 1) to the right of the decimal place. > > > > On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 12:07 PM MORTON JR., AL wrote: > > Sorry, but the original text is what we intended. > > "fraction digits = 9" refers to the digits to the right of the decimal > place. > > Al > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RFC Errata System > > Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2021 3:40 AM > > To: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org > > Cc: nmalykh@ieee.org; MORTON JR., AL ; > marcelo@it.uc3m.es; > > philip.eardley@bt.com; D'SOUZA, KEVIN L ; ippm@ietf.org > > Subject: [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC8912 (6758) > > > > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC8912, "Initial > > Performance Metrics Registry Entries". > > > > -------------------------------------- > > You may review the report below and at: > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.rfc- > > > > editor.org/errata/eid6758__;!!BhdT!0sOKD4K1QvzSFuTr19kOCaZcs09P3P_d2_LwuoM9aOr > > > 6gv_f8a6dgdeGztmA$ > > > > -------------------------------------- > > Type: Editorial > > Reported by: Nikolai Malykh > > > > Section: 4.4.2 > > > > Original Text > > ------------- > > Percent_LossRatio: The numeric value of the result is expressed in > > units of lost packets to total packets times 100%, as a positive > > value of type decimal64 with fraction digits = 9 (see Section 9.3 > > of [RFC6020]) with a resolution of 0.0000000001. > > > > > > > > Corrected Text > > -------------- > > Percent_LossRatio: The numeric value of the result is expressed in > > units of lost packets to total packets times 100%, as a positive > > value of type decimal64 with fraction digits = 9 (see Section 9.3 > > of [RFC6020]) with a resolution of 0.000000001. > > > > > > > > Notes > > ----- > > An extra 0 in the value of the resolution of the loss ratio. > > > > The error is repeated in sections 7.4.2.6, 8.4.2.6, 9.4.2.4 > > > > Instructions: > > ------------- > > This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use > > "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a > > decision is reached, the verifying party can log in to change the status > and > > edit the report, if necessary. > > > > -------------------------------------- > > RFC8912 (draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry-16) > > -------------------------------------- > > Title : Initial Performance Metrics Registry Entries > > Publication Date : November 2021 > > Author(s) : A. Morton, M. Bagnulo, P. Eardley, K. D'Souza > > Category : PROPOSED STANDARD > > Source : IP Performance Measurement > > Area : Transport > > Stream : IETF > > Verifying Party : IESG > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > > --0000000000000b7a2505d219045a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
OK, errata verified

On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 8:32 AM MORT= ON JR., AL <acmorton@att.com>= wrote:

= So, I miss-counted the zeroes?=C2=A0 I guess my vision is going for stuff like this, because I tried to c= ount again yesterday and the original looked ok...

= =C2=A0

= It should be 9 digits (8 zeros and a 1) to the right of the decimal place.<= u>

= Al

= =C2=A0

From: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmai= l.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 1, 2021 11:25 AM
To: MORTON JR., AL <acmorton@att.com>
Cc: RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>; nmalykh@ieee.org; D'SOUZA, KEVIN= L <kd6913@att.com>; ippm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ippm] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC8912 (6758)

=C2=A0

Al, can you rephrase this= ? The proposed text has 9 digits (8 zeros and a 1) to the right of the deci= mal place.

=C2=A0

Sorry, but the original t= ext is what we intended.

"fraction digits =3D 9" refers to the digits to the right of the = decimal place.

Al

> -----Original Message-----
> From: RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2021 3:40 AM
> To: rfc= -editor@rfc-editor.org
> Cc: nmalykh@ieee= .org; MORTON JR., AL <acmorton@att.com>; marcelo@it.uc3m.es<= /a>;
> philip.eard= ley@bt.com; D'SOUZA, KEVIN L <kd6913@att.com>; ippm@ietf.org
> Subject: [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC8912 (6758)
>
> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC8912, "Init= ial
> Performance Metrics Registry Entries".
>
> --------------------------------------
> You may review the report below and at:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.rfc-
> editor.org/errata/eid6758__;!!BhdT!0sOKD4K1QvzSFuTr19kOCaZcs09P3P_d2_LwuoM9= aOr
> 6gv_f8a6dgdeGztmA$
>
> --------------------------------------
> Type: Editorial
> Reported by: Nikolai Malykh <nmalykh@ieee.org>
>
> Section: 4.4.2
>
> Original Text
> -------------
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Percent_LossRatio:=C2=A0 The numeric value of the result = is expressed in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0units of lost packets to total packets times= 100%, as a positive
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0value of type decimal64 with fraction digits= =3D 9 (see Section 9.3
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of [RFC6020]) with a resolution of 0.0000000= 001.
>
>
>
> Corrected Text
> --------------
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Percent_LossRatio:=C2=A0 The numeric value of the result = is expressed in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0units of lost packets to total packets times= 100%, as a positive
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0value of type decimal64 with fraction digits= =3D 9 (see Section 9.3
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of [RFC6020]) with a resolution of 0.0000000= 01.
>
>
>
> Notes
> -----
> An extra 0 in the value of the resolution of the loss ratio.
>
> The error is repeated in sections 7.4.2.6, 8.4.2.6, 9.4.2.4
>
> Instructions:
> -------------
> This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary= , please use
> "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or reje= cted. When a
> decision is reached, the verifying party can log in to change the stat= us and
> edit the report, if necessary.
>
> --------------------------------------
> RFC8912 (draft-ietf-ippm-initial-registry-16)
> --------------------------------------
> Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Initial = Performance Metrics Registry Entries
> Publication Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 : November 2021
> Author(s)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: A. Morton, M. Bagn= ulo, P. Eardley, K. D'Souza
> Category=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : PROPOSED STANDARD<= br> > Source=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : IP Performanc= e Measurement
> Area=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Transpor= t
> Stream=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : IETF
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(Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F88A3A097E; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 10:58:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml713-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.226]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4J47cC4CBrz6824j; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 02:56:59 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.33) by fraeml713-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2308.20; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 19:58:25 +0100 Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) by fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) with mapi id 15.01.2308.020; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 19:58:25 +0100 From: Giuseppe Fioccola To: Martin Duke , "draft-fioccola-rfc8321bis.all@ietf.org" , IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: 1st review of RFC 8321bis Thread-Index: AQHX5jeFafny0q1BtU2vvHQD5nUPfqwd3hjg Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 18:58:25 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US 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v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=A/b2B2aaNlcah+SJvxwWVr0PUvv1Om6HghfeDOIVmSg=; b=Y/rl8dQmj7Ovi7/hfsyeNA+JV3i0oM98PeblpGUxtM2lq2y/4VK7NhAhw8eEsdTS5V IgrcGBfx0sRLxlr46IVVyUw26e4q+J0ClS9fOxUlU29jpb+v8XxN8GoQC8twtI5nqFlR Jbj86qJFvIEVa/Xtzh3fHwhzzl6MhqJMODX8dpeM7tHmFDc7D86U6nqTnZbIdYZWVJmG ijBlm7XGZfra1kgQnxjcgmGGVQ6QTbnbPmh/q7kqL4LEKR/U3f4AEE5sNaQHT7YoZ8Ef Qh/R/FhmXu4ZFxFtjT7iUc0PlwL/h/Amvsnm+SNAD0tAWXFZgKcVsuNchLugl+LgbhlC HdWw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=A/b2B2aaNlcah+SJvxwWVr0PUvv1Om6HghfeDOIVmSg=; b=VlOhrvyGW/581d4BkhgWXv2VvqD23moLEznw1eH0DoNojRLE6DUhqGOBPRzlCfU3Qw F0RJ+DS9IXQrg2eHQB1+pPGDKPmRfgM0vXqrEK0NdmpRbig/nfDUtjy5ryS7IQikisX3 ZHE8QPWJhFgLKCjvJNVlC+7/LEUbmI2z9r1My3W2LmKMihIN/53KcGAeElAgTDlcoxQ1 soUGWuj4pAXY1bthCICUavaWGIVXUw+ZLIlBbIaWVd80r76lKxeYlyf2XzMqPRtAYMzi J2PG0UEYHz351wUmc4QxMkKapvRIkSCPzY8rAJG2/yZUBAzm1OuaHyiIPwtt0X/bu324 E4Xg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532W8jTOScMzq1sUWev8UXSMApg9XI5y63GooOxfuJf46XAwKyoY yN4sv53s0ltQ5td1QAjMqaY72a9/fhgeJyvNm3E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwmIcP0Qc+BXzdJNsQuDAnVv0g7P02Jw5LzmPnp//Rg9AsRA9DtFn4V0O8vRY3w+WAHdLh5laTB2uSruSOblr8= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f950:: with SMTP id u16mr11531771vsq.68.1638398100632; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 14:35:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Martin Duke Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 14:34:49 -0800 Message-ID: To: Giuseppe Fioccola Cc: "draft-fioccola-rfc8321bis.all@ietf.org" , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c9f99005d21d4820" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] 1st review of RFC 8321bis X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2021 22:35:17 -0000 --000000000000c9f99005d21d4820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 10:58 AM Giuseppe Fioccola < giuseppe.fioccola@huawei.com> wrote: > *From:* Martin Duke > > - Sec 1. Can you clarify the relationship of this draft with > [IEEE-Network-PNPM]? Do they repeat each other, or does that one make a > different contribution to this project? If the former, who has change > control over the design? > > > > [GF]: It is not a repetition. The paper [IEEE-Network-PNPM] includes > RFC8321 methods but it also explains new mechanisms for the packet marking > based on hashing techniques, which are not included in RFC8321. These new > variations are described in a separate document > (draft-mizrahi-ippm-marking). I can also omit the reference if you think it > can be confusing. > Don't omit it, just explain what the reference is contributing. > - I'm concerned about sizing the block based on packet count. It's clearly > your less-preferred option, but including it has some implications. For > example, passive eavesdropping is much easier, as it would be > straightforward to figure out the expected number of packets and therefore > figure out the loss rate. If this wasn't a successful part of the > experiment, perhaps we should just remove it. > > > > [GF]: Yes, we could remove it in the PS. But, it is worth noting that > draft-ietf-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements suggests a marking method > (sQuare bit) based on a fixed number of packets to measure packet loss. It > is simpler for Client-Server protocols like QUIC. Another option could be > to leave the description of the counter-based method but we should improve > the security considerations for this aspect. What do you suggest? > I'm not a practitioner, so I can't say if it's valuable to leave it in the design or not. But the rest of the document (and 8889) is written under the assumption that the blocks are time based. For example, if it's count-based then L needs to be in units of packets, not time. How would that work? So if we're going to keep packet-based windows in the draft, you either need to review the whole document and in each place add a paragraph that starts "if using packet-based windows...", or there could be a section that enumerates all the ways this mode is different. > > > - sec 3.2.The guard band calculation does not seem correct to me. If D_max > -> D_min, then the guard band is simply A. But the ingress and egress nodes > still need to account for the packet delay from end to end! I would suggest > > > > d = A + D_max. > > > > This would also cover the reordering constraint, as the delay can be no > more than Dmax. > > > > [GF]: If D_max becomes equal to D_min, this means that all the packets are > delayed of the same value. So the batch of packets is simply shifted and no > packet is reordered. But, you are right we still need to take into account > the delay. Maybe we could consider the average delay value and its > standard deviation in the formula: > > > > d = A + D_avg + D_stddev > I don't understand what that formula accomplishes. Dmax absolutely covers reordering; regardless of reordering, the rightmost packet will not arrive later than (tx_time + A + D_max). > > > - sec 3.3.1 "a measurement is valid only if no packet loss occurs and if > packet misordering can be avoided". So what it's not? Do we throw out the > measurement? How can we detect packet misordering unless it delays a packet > over the edge? > > > > [GF]: This approach is affected by the packet reordering that we cannot > detect. You can apply it but you are aware that the first packet of the > batch in one point may not be the same packet in a second point due to the > reordering. In this case you are not sure to compare the same packet and > the delay measure is done with this intrinsic error. I can explain this > point in the next version. > My point is that this is generally undetectable and therefore is part of the intrinsic error in the measurement. Maybe your explanation will indicate this. > > > - Sec 3.3.2 "The conventional [delay] range (maximum-minimum) should be > avoided". I don't know how to reconcile this with the guard band > calculation, which absolutely uses the range! Is this a valid thing to do > or not? > > > > [GF]: In this case I did not mean the delay of the network to calculate > the guard band, but I meant the delay you are measuring. I think I can also > omit this sentence, it is not important. > OK > > > - Section 4. This entire section is largely a subset of section 3, and > covers the material both (a) inconsistently and (b) worse. There's a > reference to "two-way delay" which occurs nowhere else in the document. > The L considerations don't consider delay, unlike Section 3.2. 4.3 says > that "a proper interval is out off the scope of this document!" But the > document has lots to say about this! Earlier discussions led me to believe > you were going to largely get rid of Section 4; perhaps as an intermediate > step, in the next draft could we delete the text in that section that no > longer applies? > > > > [GF]: Yes, indeed I modified a lot this section in my first local revision > of the document. As intermediate step, I will surely delete text that no > longer applies in the next version. > Yes, I think deleted text is fine before we do the reorg. We'll take the diff between 8321 and the last draft with the old organization and send that with the request for review. The 8889 bis review is coming; there are some points relevant to 8321 as well. --000000000000c9f99005d21d4820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 10:58 AM Giuse= ppe Fioccola <giuseppe.f= ioccola@huawei.com> wrote:

From: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

- Sec 1. Can you clarify the relationship of this dr= aft with [IEEE-Network-PNPM]? Do they repeat each other, or does that one m= ake a different=C2=A0contribution to this project? If the former, who has c= hange control over the design?

=C2=A0

[GF]: It is not a repetition. T= he paper [IEEE-Network-PNPM] includes RFC8321 methods but it al= so explains new mechanisms for the packet marking based on hashing techniqu= es, which are not included in RFC8321. These new variations are described i= n a separate document (draft-mizrahi-ippm-marking). I can also omit the reference if you think it can be confusing.<= /u>


Don&= #39;t omit it, just explain what the reference is contributing.
=C2=A0

- I'm concerned about sizing the block based on = packet count. It's clearly your less-preferred option, but including it= has some implications. For example, passive eavesdropping is much easier, = as it would be straightforward to figure out the expected number of packets and therefore figure out the loss rate. If = this wasn't a successful part of the experiment, perhaps we should just= remove it.

=C2=A0

[GF]: Yes, we could remove it i= n the PS. But, it is worth noting that draft-ietf-ippm-explicit-flow-measur= ements suggests a marking method (sQuare bit) based on a fixed number of pa= ckets to measure packet loss. It is simpler for Client-Server protocols like QUIC. Another option could be to = leave the description of the counter-based method but we should improve the= security considerations for this aspect. What do you suggest?


I'= m not a practitioner, so I can't say if it's valuable to leave it i= n the design or not. But the rest of the document (and 8889) is written und= er the assumption that the blocks are time based. For example, if it's = count-based then L needs to be in units of packets, not time. How would tha= t work?

So if we're going to keep packet-based= windows in the draft, you either need to review the whole document and in = each place add a paragraph that starts "if using packet-based windows.= ..", or there could be a section that enumerates all the ways this mod= e is different.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

- sec 3.2.The guard band calculation does not seem c= orrect to me. If D_max -> D_min, then the guard band is simply A. But th= e ingress and egress nodes still need to account for the packet delay from = end to end! I would suggest

=C2=A0

d =3D A=C2=A0+ D_max.

=C2=A0

This would also cover the reordering constraint, as = the delay can be no more than Dmax.

=C2=A0

[GF]: If D_max becomes equal to= D_min, this means that all the packets are delayed of the same value. So t= he batch of packets is simply shifted and no packet is reordered. But, you are right we still need to take into a= ccount the delay. Maybe we could consider the average delay value and its standar= d deviation in the formula:

=C2=A0

d =3D A=C2=A0+ D_avg + D_stddev=


I don&#= 39;t understand what that formula accomplishes. Dmax absolutely covers reor= dering; regardless of reordering, the rightmost packet will not arrive late= r than (tx_time + A + D_max).
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

- sec 3.3.1 "a measurement is valid only if no = packet loss occurs and if packet misordering can be avoided". So what = it's not? Do we throw out the measurement? How can we detect packet mis= ordering unless it delays a packet over the edge?

=C2=A0

[GF]: This approach is affected= by the packet reordering that we cannot detect. You can apply it but you a= re aware that the first packet of the batch in one point may not be the sam= e packet in a second point due to the reordering. In this case you are not sure to compare the same packet and t= he delay measure is done with this intrinsic error. I can explain this poin= t in the next version.

=
My point is that this is generally undetectable and therefor= e is part of the intrinsic error in the measurement. Maybe your explanation= will indicate this.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

- Sec 3.3.2 "The conventional [delay] range (ma= ximum-minimum) should be avoided". I don't know how to reconcile t= his with the guard band calculation, which absolutely uses the range! Is th= is a valid thing to do or not?

=C2=A0

[GF]: In this case I did not me= an the delay of the network to calculate the guard band, but I meant the de= lay you are measuring. I think I can also omit this sentence, it is not imp= ortant.


= OK
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

- Section 4. This entire section is largely a subset= of section 3, and covers the material both (a) inconsistently and (b) wors= e. There's a reference to "two-way delay" which occurs nowher= e else in the document.=C2=A0 The L considerations don't consider delay, unlike Section 3.2. 4.3 says that "a proper interval = is out off the scope of this document!" But the document has lots to s= ay about this! Earlier discussions led me to believe you were going to larg= ely get rid of Section 4; perhaps as an intermediate step, in the next draft could we delete the text in that section that no l= onger applies?

=C2=A0

[GF]: Yes, indeed I modified a = lot this section in my first local revision of the document. As intermediat= e step, I will surely delete text that no longer applies in the next version.


Yes, I think deleted text is fine before we do the= reorg. We'll take the diff between 8321 and the last draft with the ol= d organization and send that with the request for review.
=C2= =A0
The 8889 bis review is coming; there are some points relevant= to 8321 as well.
--000000000000c9f99005d21d4820-- From nobody Wed Dec 1 15:12:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82F563A0CE0; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 15:12:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uzMhaCJD2e7X; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 15:12:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk1-xa29.google.com (mail-vk1-xa29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CD8E3A0D19; Wed, 1 Dec 2021 15:12:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vk1-xa29.google.com with SMTP id s1so8835331vks.9; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 15:12:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hQ8KqO4xUUBb1QXmLTKpmYjRYgys3hReuz2KGWlpPC4=; b=oPnXl31s/CuIKpchbToKghmxV9awoGABLxdODg6VXtKWkydYidGlRei2PsmVt13IWz obL0WjCtRiwdKITIWqVSAb5gdabN7g3961IY39xgtWNixI1SrobxmzbqWQgpLAaSugD6 st9GA+fKDJ+k6JuPGnQhOIyDwf9BHPl8tJIdLQX1vu+909RN82DwA1sVlDo2RcWzFXkt 9dkns5Aiw5Z0gMTpqmiZrS3PbV/DalB4jUNkw4bumcrKMAOVr4VE3df6qq1gME0XFJP+ Dvzf0Qsbyzx6LlaTdhHuj4b9N5npyBw1Vi+q6GEaUHgEtA5ML4Pvblq/ed1wqVsAc5/V R6GQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hQ8KqO4xUUBb1QXmLTKpmYjRYgys3hReuz2KGWlpPC4=; b=W9MhlgVrx3tvHAqSqPKk/SJAQyqlaPEVdad5WHcK4c0hoI/Mg0r98coBseQ62VpW67 iB8lnYGXBCeJUBRz/G5qzcPE5g4v9MMt7CqbJzUCFHsLkovkQqoerPGrtL99G31J1J8X d6gCx9anhjqjQyQE0/B8Ark6USP56pOAgA/Xwuk0SWHYUYDZwE1juylLxnsWpkK/C4kJ ZWDI49Mp+iYgdnD7M2xGMtRfCavgYa4lqqdLzNoKIb1DcYnnzdD/3Cl8tlhAwvuSn9c2 eA1WW99IxMbWKVSGXeIHnFr1sYTSb6+DiP6/PtnrsNUrnxx6ywqbK/oQmJ2/7ppkS4NC KW5w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532PpXgzlsWWiKkQjzMpURG+px9Z7m0pkgTWM/S/5pS3OANx4G/y nv1SqV8wIREfvLDb9b61O/C06/99u/vKVDL+3mOv02xt X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzOzX3dRtTDKEzlMlwrmVhvBRuQSa7aqJBJg2ugFYQwBXOsv0GBWm9IeJZ2rJCqpvScOqJZo+8dWrqUJTBk09Q= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:221c:: with SMTP id bb28mr12170671vkb.27.1638400338993; Wed, 01 Dec 2021 15:12:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Martin Duke Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 15:12:08 -0800 Message-ID: To: draft-fioccola-rfc8889bis.all@ietf.org Cc: IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000034a6d105d21dce7b" Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] 1st AD review of rfc8889bis X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2021 23:12:33 -0000 --00000000000034a6d105d21dce7b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks for this doc. Here are some high-level comments in no particular order: - My perception is that 8889 is an extension of the concepts in 8321, with some common elements only defined in 8321, so 8321 should be a normative reference. - I am confused as to whether ECMP is covered by 8321 or 8889. The 8321 section on reordering talks about ECMP as a cause, which leads me to believe it's to be covered; but in the intro 8889 claims this use case. I suppose it depends on how much you're localizing the measurement? - The intro claims that 8321 covers BUM traffic. Isn't multicast a classic point-to-multipoint situation? Indeed, doesn't multicast involve packet replication, which inherently breaks the packet loss mechanism? - 8889 brings up IP fragmentation, but this seems like a general concern for 8321 too. Although it probably ought to be written out in 8321 and not here, this seems under-addressed here. Some questions: (a) if a router has to fragment a packet, should it replicate the marking on all the fragments? (b) at a measurement point, is a packet "lost" if any fragment is lost? what if the fragments entered separately in the network under test? (c) What if the marking location is not replicated across the fragments (e.g. it's in the transport header)? - Like 8321, there is a general problem with not addressing the fixed-N marking scheme at all ("The equation is applied on a per-time-interval basis...") - There is a hidden requirement here that there be a measurement point at all possible egress points. Best to mention that. - I don't understand the L determination when there are multiple marking nodes (Sec 7). "The source measurement intervals can be of different lengths and with different offsets" Some questions: (a) What is a "source measurement interval"? Does it have anything to do with L? (b) So let's say that source nodes start marking at arbitrary times. Isn't the "offset" then directly a function of L? And if so, how can we scale L based on the offset m? (c) if the idea is that there is a clock time when marking should begin, then why isn't the value of A [clock skew] embedded in d sufficient? - I can't understand the purpose of "delay measurements on a single-packet basis" in Section 8. I cannot grok the context of Section 8.2 at all. What are these techniques trying to achieve? This reads like an informational exploration of options rather than a normative standard. 8321 has detailed examples of sample measurements and how you derive a measurement; something like that would be very useful here. Martin --00000000000034a6d105d21dce7b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for this doc. Here are some high-level comment= s in no particular order:

- My perception is that = 8889 is an extension of the concepts in 8321, with some common elements onl= y defined in 8321, so 8321 should be a normative reference.
<= br>
- I am confused as to whether ECMP is covered by 8321 or 8889= . The 8321 section on reordering talks about ECMP as a cause, which leads m= e to believe it's to be covered; but in the intro 8889 claims this use = case. I suppose it depends on how much you're localizing the measuremen= t?

- The intro claims that 8321 covers BUM traffic= . Isn't multicast a classic point-to-multipoint situation? Indeed, does= n't multicast involve packet replication, which inherently breaks the p= acket loss mechanism?

- 8889 brings up IP fragment= ation, but this seems like a general concern for 8321 too. Although it prob= ably ought to be written out in 8321 and not here, this seems under-address= ed here. Some questions:
=C2=A0(a) if a router has to fragment a = packet, should it replicate the marking on all the fragments?
=C2= =A0(b) at a measurement point, is a packet "lost" if any fragment= is lost? what if the fragments entered separately in the network under tes= t?
=C2=A0(c) What if the marking location is not replicated a= cross the fragments (e.g. it's in the transport header)?

=
- Like 8321, there is a general problem with not addressing the = fixed-N marking scheme at all ("The equation is applied on a per-time-= interval basis...")

- There is a hidden requi= rement here that there be a measurement point at all possible egress points= . Best to mention that.

- I don't understand t= he L determination when there are multiple marking nodes (Sec 7). "The= source measurement intervals can be of different lengths and with differen= t offsets" Some questions:
(a) What is a "source measur= ement interval"? Does it have anything to do with L?
(b) So = let's say that source nodes start marking at arbitrary times. Isn't= the "offset" then directly a function of L? And if so, how can w= e scale L based on the offset m?
(c) if the idea is that there is= a clock time when marking should begin, then why isn't the value of A = [clock skew] embedded in d sufficient?

- I can'= ;t understand the purpose of "delay measurements on a single-packet ba= sis" in Section 8. I cannot grok the context of Section 8.2 at all. Wh= at are these techniques trying to achieve? This reads like an informational= exploration of options rather than a normative standard. 8321 has detailed= examples of sample measurements and how you derive a measurement; somethin= g like that would be very useful here.

Martin
<= /div>


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(using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9EF2C3A105D; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 03:46:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml711-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.206]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4J4Yzk5XpBz68916; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 19:45:22 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.33) by fraeml711-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.60) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2308.20; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 12:46:50 +0100 Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) by fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) with mapi id 15.01.2308.020; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 12:46:50 +0100 From: Giuseppe Fioccola To: Martin Duke , "draft-fioccola-rfc8889bis.all@ietf.org" CC: IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: 1st AD review of rfc8889bis Thread-Index: AQHX5wkHYv0aySGXIUe9C9+wJquXw6we/jEg Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 11:46:50 +0000 Message-ID: <6ef48bea72684e4984e496c906a7723e@huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.48.213.171] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6ef48bea72684e4984e496c906a7723ehuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] 1st AD review of rfc8889bis X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2021 11:47:00 -0000 --_000_6ef48bea72684e4984e496c906a7723ehuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgTWFydGluLA0KVGhhbmsgeW91IHZlcnkgbXVjaCBmb3IgeW91ciBkZXRhaWxlZCByZXZpZXcu DQpQZWFzZSBmaW5kIG15IGFuc3dlcnMgaW5saW5lIHRhZ2dlZCBhcyBbR0ZdLg0KDQpCZXN0IFJl 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b=U+QdHPUoYJZBWiz9lX27UAiJvdKrGS3Wvf44/9TptYiVu+ozbGy+VcaYNTpZ7VdQsC cVIceL00bpVSCa5L8Oe1Zw1U3kSCND74hLZtolOSYO2n5TX4Hvtsn8MLEftCIJ8ltDyV aTdOyeaSpNfuowhWJ2pWPocRLOaFqJi8iEN1NK+wj4E6t7532TB679RPR2pQaQgns8ou Fx77YzS+EgnTRXzNU2c8lnrWO83jGU4toEjHpqRHm0wgFsVhvbb14L6NxqZKok8VUeZ0 FUP3/wfuZPKxkgDAWz/my1eN+nDbEwXuvpHlHFjD6KiXi3rrEBp2ntfI9w1/YIIOAg5/ QGuA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Nh4MWSLGARscIat5tRoYLAHQHOOPqBRHfhg/cuOlf1rmqNw5u YKbl9mcv4ZwnsXuwXWan/Coxb9F8+qgFbDd+lcBlLVRu X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwNiGaCCC41wdvywz700iM10d43eo9robI+3QrgiP53iIYZaiRSy/wCZTDWh//iqv99sYKAbYD+hka7ldNsst8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:221c:: with SMTP id bb28mr18098000vkb.27.1638470530309; Thu, 02 Dec 2021 10:42:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1cfecebe84124cb5a22a370d6d5125fd@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <1cfecebe84124cb5a22a370d6d5125fd@huawei.com> From: Martin Duke Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 10:41:54 -0800 Message-ID: To: Giuseppe Fioccola Cc: "draft-fioccola-rfc8321bis.all@ietf.org" , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ef23b905d22e255e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] 1st review of RFC 8321bis X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2021 18:42:18 -0000 --000000000000ef23b905d22e255e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 2:19 AM Giuseppe Fioccola < giuseppe.fioccola@huawei.com> wrote: > Hi Martin, > > My answers inline as [GF]. > > > > Regards, > > > > Giuseppe > > > > *From:* Martin Duke > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 1, 2021 11:35 PM > *To:* Giuseppe Fioccola > *Cc:* draft-fioccola-rfc8321bis.all@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG > *Subject:* Re: 1st review of RFC 8321bis > > > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 10:58 AM Giuseppe Fioccola < > giuseppe.fioccola@huawei.com> wrote: > > *From:* Martin Duke > > > > - I'm concerned about sizing the block based on packet count. It's clearly > your less-preferred option, but including it has some implications. For > example, passive eavesdropping is much easier, as it would be > straightforward to figure out the expected number of packets and therefore > figure out the loss rate. If this wasn't a successful part of the > experiment, perhaps we should just remove it. > > > > [GF]: Yes, we could remove it in the PS. But, it is worth noting that > draft-ietf-ippm-explicit-flow-measurements suggests a marking method > (sQuare bit) based on a fixed number of packets to measure packet loss. It > is simpler for Client-Server protocols like QUIC. Another option could be > to leave the description of the counter-based method but we should improve > the security considerations for this aspect. What do you suggest? > > > > I'm not a practitioner, so I can't say if it's valuable to leave it in the > design or not. But the rest of the document (and 8889) is written under the > assumption that the blocks are time based. For example, if it's count-based > then L needs to be in units of packets, not time. How would that work? > > > > So if we're going to keep packet-based windows in the draft, you either > need to review the whole document and in each place add a paragraph that > starts "if using packet-based windows...", or there could be a section that > enumerates all the ways this mode is different. > > > > [GF]: I would only consider the assumption that the blocks are time based. > The count based method can be mentioned only in the general description as > additional possibility but we can clarify that its detailed specification > is out of scope here. > > > Moving count-based blocks out of scope sounds like a good solution. > > > - sec 3.2.The guard band calculation does not seem correct to me. If D_max > -> D_min, then the guard band is simply A. But the ingress and egress nodes > still need to account for the packet delay from end to end! I would suggest > > > > d = A + D_max. > > > > This would also cover the reordering constraint, as the delay can be no > more than Dmax. > > > > [GF]: If D_max becomes equal to D_min, this means that all the packets are > delayed of the same value. So the batch of packets is simply shifted and no > packet is reordered. But, you are right we still need to take into account > the delay. Maybe we could consider the average delay value and its > standard deviation in the formula: > > > > d = A + D_avg + D_stddev > > > > I don't understand what that formula accomplishes. Dmax absolutely covers > reordering; regardless of reordering, the rightmost packet will not arrive > later than (tx_time + A + D_max). > > > > [GF]: I forgot the multiplier. For a data set, most observations fall > within one standard deviation of the average. In particular, 68% of the > samples are within 1 standard deviation of the average. 95% of the samples > are within 2 standard deviation of the average. 99.7% of the samples are > within 3 standard deviation of the mean. > > It means that D_avg + 3*D_stddev -> D_max > > By the way, to make it simple we can also simply consider D_max in the > formula. > OK, either D_max or D_avg + 3D_stddev is fine. I agree that your formulation is superior if you're basing it off measurements. Martin --000000000000ef23b905d22e255e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 2:19 AM Giusep= pe Fioccola <giuseppe.fi= occola@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi Martin,=

My answers inline as [GF].

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Giuseppe

=C2=A0

From: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 1, 2021 11:35 PM
To: Giuseppe Fioccola <giuseppe.fioccola@huawei.com>
Cc: draft-fioccola-rfc8321bis.all@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: 1st review of RFC 8321bis

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 10:58 AM Giuseppe Fioccola &l= t;giusepp= e.fioccola@huawei.com> wrote:

From: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0

- I'm concerned about sizing the block based on = packet count. It's clearly your less-preferred option, but including it= has some implications. For example, passive eavesdropping is much easier, as it would be straightforward to figure out the expected = number of packets and therefore figure out the loss rate. If this wasn'= t a successful part of the experiment, perhaps we should just remove it.=

=C2=A0

[GF]: Yes, we could remove it i= n the PS. But, it is worth noting that draft-ietf-ippm-explicit-flow-measur= ements suggests a marking method (sQuare bit) based on a fixed number of packets to measure packet loss. It is simpler for Cli= ent-Server protocols like QUIC. Another option could be to leave the descri= ption of the counter-based method but we should improve the security consid= erations for this aspect. What do you suggest?

=C2=A0

I'm not a practitioner, so I can't say if it= 's valuable to leave it in the design or not. But the rest of the docum= ent (and 8889) is written under the assumption that the blocks are time bas= ed. For example, if it's count-based then L needs to be in units of packets, not time. How would that work?

=C2=A0

So if we're going to keep packet-based windows i= n the draft, you either need to review the whole document and in each place= add a paragraph that starts "if using packet-based windows...", = or there could be a section that enumerates all the ways this mode is different.

=C2=A0

[GF]: I would only consider the= assumption that the blocks are time based. The count based method can be m= entioned only in the general description as additional possibility but we c= an clarify that its detailed specification is out of scope here.

=C2=A0


Moving count-based blocks out of scope sounds l= ike a good solution.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

- sec 3.2.The guard band calculation does not seem c= orrect to me. If D_max -> D_min, then the guard band is simply A. But th= e ingress and egress nodes still need to account for the packet delay from end to end! I would suggest

=C2=A0

d =3D A=C2=A0+ D_max.

=C2=A0

This would also cover the reordering constraint, as = the delay can be no more than Dmax.

=C2=A0

[GF]: If D_max becomes equal to= D_min, this means that all the packets are delayed of the same value. So t= he batch of packets is simply shifted and no packet is reordered. But, you are right we still need to take into account the delay. Maybe we could consider the average delay value and its standar= d deviation in the formula:

=C2=A0

d =3D A=C2=A0+ D_avg + D_stddev

=C2=A0

I don't understand what that formula accomplishe= s. Dmax absolutely covers reordering; regardless of reordering, the rightmo= st packet will not arrive later than (tx_time + A + D_max).

=C2=A0

[GF]: I forgot the multiplier. = For a data set, most observations fall within one standard deviation of the= average. In particular, 68% of the samples are within 1 standard deviation= of the average. 95% of the samples are within 2 standard deviation of the average. 99.7% of the samples are w= ithin 3 standard deviation of the mean.

It means that D_avg + 3*D_stdde= v -> D_max

By the way, to make it simple w= e can also simply consider D_max in the formula.


OK, either D_max or D_avg=C2= =A0+ 3D_stddev is fine. I agree that your formulation is superior if you= 9;re basing it off measurements.

Martin
--000000000000ef23b905d22e255e-- From nobody Thu Dec 2 11:23:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0532A3A0417; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 11:23:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g7RLJT3lQFyH; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 11:23:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua1-x936.google.com (mail-ua1-x936.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::936]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47AE13A0412; Thu, 2 Dec 2021 11:23:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua1-x936.google.com with SMTP id l24so1129689uak.2; Thu, 02 Dec 2021 11:23:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=egrPgf+WDyqt6ZPBU/5XNZnBvML6/JdxsvH+DypP9zI=; b=X29uYozPe6k9sGllcp2W2V7opa5G50p6jJZTeUhM7RqIbYFRmfDCtIF7j3qIljQ4gC WQ53JGJA5OQa79UNNks4TWE72cRELagVJor+50xjaG/xtYZuxEBhwPqxB/Twgn0lZrMm PknlY3cjNH1zOPUZrx6grGvbhIXCoTtj7l/xS5iBOWoEJnw/c6fQwh8MUSqXib9/tv80 vpo5Az1fZkcSNWQmEsQcZQsOpFS1/oki3PIykIf1qAv06ptMc5Z8R65yHAhsaB2rNKkv max0GJmprW50wFbAFnbTe8YTbLBMTOBA+ZvzXcDs5AxUZ3Ex584lDQe5hVy4f84VpLOp mpgw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=egrPgf+WDyqt6ZPBU/5XNZnBvML6/JdxsvH+DypP9zI=; b=6nhETQlWVfs4nhrzYmj1F2CKeKCIR6MULkleoeLKOjtCmL8CFGxUqQh1eYilMEAuaW z8010L7qNf/eOGiWpBeDKYz92g7i3o06uJD3ADIr5Tyjp54GcXZ9yaf/BOEpe3jd7Rtw o0/GioAiwLIWV5YYg0c5AUpijkiqjRDciIqA0Fd540GqjzzbI+RKhQSzAhfFvhV6vSQW jHbrspgk4DpMbzgu6PSOxK7rczO3P5EA6NvOQWaNu4effapt/y/Tts9IrkwanGW0fRLI ArtpWVVIMioTyinDIXvdUG4WVpC4f5P8NNouAmDjoSsp0knMRW+es2fxLQ0psSD7huXu AFpA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533BvCSQoZ5wTn6GS6yjtP6xIItYDYBnNlRGyc78wxTgnFdqlEh5 NrEHD2rn1Xl0B10PU0qr+FVId6k6mVnXbk+gy2lq7gCZ X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyHGxcQK1Ons+qVV7Wum5x7Me8yU2LvMIgHAYquaMH6yqVvoKufYWSwhQOlwXShcJL+LGVMh9Q9ijAgmHJQ4ws= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f950:: with SMTP id u16mr17463102vsq.68.1638472993429; Thu, 02 Dec 2021 11:23:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6ef48bea72684e4984e496c906a7723e@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <6ef48bea72684e4984e496c906a7723e@huawei.com> From: Martin Duke Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 11:22:57 -0800 Message-ID: To: Giuseppe Fioccola Cc: "draft-fioccola-rfc8889bis.all@ietf.org" , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bf5c6505d22eb841" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] 1st AD review of rfc8889bis X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2021 19:23:20 -0000 --000000000000bf5c6505d22eb841 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 3:46 AM Giuseppe Fioccola < giuseppe.fioccola@huawei.com> wrote: > > *From:* Martin Duke > > > - I am confused as to whether ECMP is covered by 8321 or 8889. The 8321 > section on reordering talks about ECMP as a cause, which leads me to > believe it's to be covered; but in the intro 8889 claims this use case. I > suppose it depends on how much you're localizing the measurement? > > > > [GF]: In RFC8321 it was mentioned ECMP just to explain that reordering > can be caused by ECMP paths, but the monitoring was assumed point-to-poin= t > in the whole document. I can omit that sentence in RFC8321 if it is > confusing. While, RFC8889 covers the general case of > multipoint-to-multipoint unicast flows (including ECMP). The BUM traffic > was not covered in the original RFC8889, but Alternate Marking can be > applied in case of multicast. Maybe, in a later version, we can add a sho= rt > section in one of the two bis documents to explain how to monitor multica= st > traffic by simply applying RFC8321 link by link. > > > > - The intro claims that 8321 covers BUM traffic. Isn't multicast a classi= c > point-to-multipoint situation? Indeed, doesn't multicast involve packet > replication, which inherently breaks the packet loss mechanism? > > > > [GF]: With the =E2=80=9Cclustered=E2=80=9D approach of RFC8889 you cannot= monitor BUM > traffic but only multipoint-to-multipoint unicast flows. For BUM traffic, > you can apply the basic method of RFC8321 but link by link and therefore > split the multicast flow into separate unicast point-to-point links. As > said, a new section on BUM traffic could be useful to clarify this point. > This distinction seems artificial to me; the split between the drafts is not the type of traffic but the type of traffic combined with the scope of the measurement. For example, if you're measuring ECMP at the source and destination, 8321 is fine. Similarly, as you point out BUM traffic for 8321 only works if you combine it with the links. I don't think a substantive change is needed here but maybe the text could be a bit clearer? > > > - 8889 brings up IP fragmentation, but this seems like a general concern > for 8321 too. Although it probably ought to be written out in 8321 and no= t > here, this seems under-addressed here. Some questions: > > (a) if a router has to fragment a packet, should it replicate the markin= g > on all the fragments? > > (b) at a measurement point, is a packet "lost" if any fragment is lost? > what if the fragments entered separately in the network under test? > > (c) What if the marking location is not replicated across the fragments > (e.g. it's in the transport header)? > > > > [GF]: Agree, few considerations can be included in RFC8321. The assumptio= n > in RFC8889 was that the fragmentation can be managed if it happens outsid= e > the portion of the network that is monitored. > > Regarding your questions: > > a) both possibilities could be considered. If you do not replicate markin= g > you may have less problems to apply the methodology but you are missing > fragments and possible losses. > > b) yes, if we mark all the fragments. If the fragments enter separately i= t > is not a problem since they behave as normal packets (we are assuming > fragmentation and reassembly outside the domain). > > c) if the marking is not applied to all the fragments, the fragmentation > could also happen within the domain but the monitoring is not complete > since you are missing fragments. > I agree that there are many possibilities, but a standard should either provide guidance or (at least) work through the implications of each. It should be more prescriptive; marking nodes and measurement nodes need to have common expectations about the marking rules, although they can deterministically depend on whether or not one can mark fragments (which is obviously deployment-dependent). I'm happy to be corrected by an expert, but after thinking about it for a few minutes I would propose the following: (i) marking nodes MUST mark all fragments if there is a codepoint to use (i.e. it is in the IP header or encapsulation), as if they were separate packets. (ii) routers that fragment packets in a network under test MUST NOT replicate marks (thus signalling that it was fragmented internally), but SHOULD mark the first fragment if they have the capability to do so. (iii) Measurement points MAY simply ignore unmarked fragments and count marked fragments as full packets. However, if resources allow, Measurement Points SHOULD make note of marked initial fragments and only increment its counter if (a) other fragments are also marked, or (b) it observes all other fragments and they are unmarked. > - I don't understand the L determination when there are multiple marking > nodes (Sec 7). "The source measurement intervals can be of different > lengths and with different offsets" Some questions: > > (a) What is a "source measurement interval"? Does it have anything to do > with L? > > (b) So let's say that source nodes start marking at arbitrary times. Isn'= t > the "offset" then directly a function of L? And if so, how can we scale L > based on the offset m? > > (c) if the idea is that there is a clock time when marking should begin, > then why isn't the value of A [clock skew] embedded in d sufficient? > > > > [GF]: For a multipoint-to-multipoint flow, you may have multiple marking > nodes, so there is an additional contribution to take into account. Indee= d, > the marking nodes may apply the markings at different moments and this ti= me > offset does not depend from the clock error or from the network delay but > it is an intrinsic delay of the router. > > Regarding your questions: > > a) it is the marking period. I will replace it to be aligned with the > terminology of the rest of the document. > > b) yes, there is the formula: L - 2m - 2d > 0 > > c) m is not given by clock skew, indeed A is already included in d. > I wasn't clear enough about (b). Let's say node A has period L1, and node B is trying to set its L but is going to start at an arbitrary time. What is m for node B? It is a uniform distribution over [0, L1]. so L2 has to be >> L1. But the same is true of A! The only way to disambiguate the blocks is for each L to be much bigger than all the other Ls, which is of course impossible. The only way I can see for this to work is for the marking nodes to agree a clock time to switch blocks, with fixed L, and then you're only constrained by the clock skew and delay as in 8321. To me this is the central problem 8889 is trying to solve, and it's under-baked. Maybe there's a constraint I'm not seeing? > > > - I can't understand the purpose of "delay measurements on a single-packe= t > basis" in Section 8. I cannot grok the context of Section 8.2 at all. Wha= t > are these techniques trying to achieve? This reads like an informational > exploration of options rather than a normative standard. 8321 has detaile= d > examples of sample measurements and how you derive a measurement; somethi= ng > like that would be very useful here. > > > > [GF]: I agree with you. Indeed, in my first local revision of the documen= t > I reduced a lot these sections. As you noticed, it is only an exploration > that it is ok for an experimental document but less relevant for a PS. > great, as we discussed earlier let's delete irrelevant text. > --000000000000bf5c6505d22eb841 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 3:46 AM Giusep= pe Fioccola <giuseppe.fi= occola@huawei.com> wrote:


From: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
= =C2=A0

- I am confused as to whether ECMP is covered by 832= 1 or 8889. The 8321 section on reordering talks about ECMP as a cause, whic= h leads me to believe it's to be covered; but in the intro 8889 claims = this use case. I suppose it depends on how much you're localizing the measurement?

=C2=A0

[GF]: In RFC8321 it was mention= ed ECMP just to explain that reordering can be caused by ECMP paths, but th= e monitoring was assumed point-to-point in the whole document. I can omit t= hat sentence in RFC8321 if it is confusing. While, RFC8889 covers the general case of multipoint-to-multipoint unicast= flows (including ECMP). The BUM traffic was not covered in the original RF= C8889, but Alternate Marking can be applied in case of multicast. Maybe, in= a later version, we can add a short section in one of the two bis documents to explain how to monitor multicas= t traffic by simply applying RFC8321 link by link.

=C2=A0

- The intro claims that 8321 covers BUM traffic. Isn= 't multicast a classic point-to-multipoint situation? Indeed, doesn'= ;t multicast involve packet replication, which inherently breaks the packet= loss mechanism?

=C2=A0

[GF]: With the =E2=80=9Ccluster= ed=E2=80=9D approach of RFC8889 you cannot monitor BUM traffic but only mul= tipoint-to-multipoint unicast flows. For BUM traffic, you can apply the bas= ic method of RFC8321 but link by link and therefore split the multicast flow into separate unicast point-to-point links. As sa= id, a new section on BUM traffic could be useful to clarify this point.


This distin= ction seems artificial to me; the split between the drafts is not the type = of traffic but the type of traffic combined with the scope of the measureme= nt. For example, if you're measuring ECMP at the source and destination= , 8321 is fine. Similarly, as you point out BUM traffic for 8321 only works= if you combine it with the links. I don't think a substantive change i= s needed here but maybe the text could be a bit clearer?
=C2=A0
<= div class=3D"gmail-m_-1919564477181885253WordSection1">

=C2=A0

- 8889 brings up IP fragmentation, but this seems li= ke a general concern for 8321 too. Although it probably ought to be written= out in 8321 and not here, this seems under-addressed here. Some questions:=

=C2=A0(a) if a router has to fragment a packet, shou= ld it replicate the marking on all the fragments?

=C2=A0(b) at a measurement point, is a packet "= lost" if any fragment is lost? what if the fragments entered separatel= y in the network under test?

=C2=A0(c) What if the marking location is not replic= ated across the fragments (e.g. it's in the transport header)?

=C2=A0

[GF]: Agree, few considerations= can be included in RFC8321. The assumption in RFC8889 was that the fragmen= tation can be managed if it happens outside the portion of the network that= is monitored.

Regarding your questions:

a) both possibilities could be = considered. If you do not replicate marking you may have less problems to a= pply the methodology but you are missing fragments and possible losses.

b) yes, if we mark all the frag= ments. If the fragments enter separately it is not a problem since they beh= ave as normal packets (we are assuming fragmentation and reassembly outside= the domain).

c) if the marking is not applie= d to all the fragments, the fragmentation could also happen within the doma= in but the monitoring is not complete since you are missing fragments.


I agree that= there are many possibilities, but a standard should either provide guidanc= e or (at least) work through the implications of each. It should be more pr= escriptive; marking nodes and measurement nodes need to have common expecta= tions about the marking rules, although they can deterministically depend o= n whether or not one can mark fragments (which is obviously deployment-depe= ndent).

I'm happy to be corrected by an expert= , but after thinking about it for a few minutes I would propose the followi= ng:
(i) marking nodes MUST mark all fragments if there is a codep= oint to use (i.e. it is in the IP header or encapsulation), as if they were= separate packets.
(ii) routers that fragment packets in a networ= k under test MUST NOT replicate marks (thus signalling that it was fragment= ed internally), but SHOULD mark the first fragment if they have the capabil= ity to do so.
(iii) Measurement points MAY simply ignore unmarked= fragments and count marked=C2=A0fragments as full packets. However, if res= ources allow, Measurement Points SHOULD make note of marked initial fragmen= ts and only increment its counter if (a) other fragments are also marked, o= r (b) it observes all other fragments and they are unmarked.
=C2= =A0

- I don't understand the L determination when th= ere are multiple marking nodes (Sec 7). "The source measurement interv= als can be of different lengths and with different offsets" Some quest= ions:

(a) What is a "source measurement interval"= ;? Does it have anything to do with L?

(b) So let's say that source nodes start marking= at arbitrary times. Isn't the "offset" then directly a funct= ion of L? And if so, how can we scale L based on the offset m?

(c) if the idea is that there is a clock time when m= arking should begin, then why isn't the value of A [clock skew] embedde= d in d sufficient?

=C2=A0

[GF]: For a multipoint-to-multi= point flow, you may have multiple marking nodes, so there is an additional = contribution to take into account. Indeed, the marking nodes may apply the = markings at different moments and this time offset does not depend from the clock error or from the network delay= but it is an intrinsic delay of the router.

Regarding your questions:

a) it is the marking period. I = will replace it to be aligned with the terminology of the rest of the docum= ent.

b) yes, there is the formula: L= - 2m - 2d > 0

c) m is not given by clo= ck skew, indeed A is already included in d.

=

I wasn't clear= enough about (b). Let's say node A has period L1, and node B is trying= to set its L but is going to start at an arbitrary time. What is m for nod= e B? It is a uniform distribution over [0, L1]. so L2 has to be >> L1= . But the same is true of A! The only way to disambiguate the blocks is for= each L to be much bigger than all the other Ls, which is of course impossi= ble.

The only way I can see for this to work is fo= r the marking nodes to agree a clock time to switch blocks, with fixed L, a= nd then you're only constrained by the clock skew and delay as in 8321.=

To me this is the central problem 8889 is trying = to solve, and it's under-baked. Maybe there's a constraint I'm = not seeing?
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

- I can't understand the purpose of "delay = measurements on a single-packet basis" in Section 8. I cannot grok the= context of Section 8.2 at all. What are these techniques trying to achieve= ? This reads like an informational exploration of options rather than a normative standard. 8321 has detailed examples of sa= mple measurements and how you derive a measurement; something like that wou= ld be very useful here.

=C2=A0

[GF]: I agree with you. Indeed,= in my first local revision of the document I reduced a lot these sections.= As you noticed, it is only an exploration that it is ok for an experimenta= l document but less relevant for a PS.


great, as we discussed earlier let's del= ete irrelevant text.=C2=A0
--000000000000bf5c6505d22eb841-- From nobody Fri Dec 3 06:03:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB8C53A09E3; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 06:03:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BuRedHEK9zIL; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 06:02:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 441653A09E2; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 06:02:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml708-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.207]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4J5Dyr3QGxz67Ys9; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 22:01:56 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.33) by fraeml708-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2308.20; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 15:02:51 +0100 Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) by fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) with mapi id 15.01.2308.020; Fri, 3 Dec 2021 15:02:52 +0100 From: Giuseppe Fioccola To: Martin Duke CC: "draft-fioccola-rfc8321bis.all@ietf.org" , IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: 1st review of RFC 8321bis Thread-Index: AQHX5jeFafny0q1BtU2vvHQD5nUPfqwd3hjggABMAYCAAMrK8IAAhngAgAFT2jA= Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 14:02:51 +0000 Message-ID: <7edf4468040446d0baa591f2b38ce99f@huawei.com> 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boundary="0000000000005badf005d241607b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] 1st AD review of rfc8889bis X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2021 17:38:50 -0000 --0000000000005badf005d241607b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 6:59 AM Giuseppe Fioccola < giuseppe.fioccola@huawei.com> wrote: > Hi Martin, > > My answers inline as [GF]. > > > > > > I agree that there are many possibilities, but a standard should either > provide guidance or (at least) work through the implications of each. It > should be more prescriptive; marking nodes and measurement nodes need to > have common expectations about the marking rules, although they can > deterministically depend on whether or not one can mark fragments (which = is > obviously deployment-dependent). > > > > I'm happy to be corrected by an expert, but after thinking about it for a > few minutes I would propose the following: > > (i) marking nodes MUST mark all fragments if there is a codepoint to use > (i.e. it is in the IP header or encapsulation), as if they were separate > packets. > > (ii) routers that fragment packets in a network under test MUST NOT > replicate marks (thus signalling that it was fragmented internally), but > SHOULD mark the first fragment if they have the capability to do so. > > (iii) Measurement points MAY simply ignore unmarked fragments and count > marked fragments as full packets. However, if resources allow, Measuremen= t > Points SHOULD make note of marked initial fragments and only increment it= s > counter if (a) other fragments are also marked, or (b) it observes all > other fragments and they are unmarked. > > > > [GF]: I fully agree with your proposals. The marking node MUST mark all > the fragments except in the case of fragmentation within the network > domain; in this case it is suggested to mark only the first packet. The > condition about the counters also makes sense so it could be possible to > keep track of both marked and unmarked fragments. I can include these > considerations in the next version. > Alright, please think it through and write up some text if you think it checks out. > - I don't understand the L determination when there are multiple marking > nodes (Sec 7). "The source measurement intervals can be of different > lengths and with different offsets" Some questions: > > (a) What is a "source measurement interval"? Does it have anything to do > with L? > > (b) So let's say that source nodes start marking at arbitrary times. Isn'= t > the "offset" then directly a function of L? And if so, how can we scale L > based on the offset m? > > (c) if the idea is that there is a clock time when marking should begin, > then why isn't the value of A [clock skew] embedded in d sufficient? > > > > [GF]: For a multipoint-to-multipoint flow, you may have multiple marking > nodes, so there is an additional contribution to take into account. Indee= d, > the marking nodes may apply the markings at different moments and this ti= me > offset does not depend from the clock error or from the network delay but > it is an intrinsic delay of the router. > > Regarding your questions: > > a) it is the marking period. I will replace it to be aligned with the > terminology of the rest of the document. > > b) yes, there is the formula: L - 2m - 2d > 0 > > c) m is not given by clock skew, indeed A is already included in d. > > > > I wasn't clear enough about (b). Let's say node A has period L1, and node > B is trying to set its L but is going to start at an arbitrary time. What > is m for node B? It is a uniform distribution over [0, L1]. so L2 has to = be > >> L1. But the same is true of A! The only way to disambiguate the blocks > is for each L to be much bigger than all the other Ls, which is of course > impossible. > > > > The only way I can see for this to work is for the marking nodes to agree > a clock time to switch blocks, with fixed L, and then you're only > constrained by the clock skew and delay as in 8321. > > > > To me this is the central problem 8889 is trying to solve, and it's > under-baked. Maybe there's a constraint I'm not seeing? > > > > [GF]: Yes, the only way is that the marking nodes switch blocks with fixe= d > L based on a clock time. In theory the formula in RFC8321 applies also in > case of multipoint network. But we wanted to generalize that formula and > let me explain the rationale. Since we have more marking nodes in a > multipoint environment, there can be an additional mismatch to consider > since different nodes are marking the traffic and the batches get mixed i= n > a multipoint flow. For example, a marking node may apply the marking with= a > delay because it is overloaded while the other marking nodes are not. To > take into account this possible additional gap between the sources we > introduced =E2=80=9Cm=E2=80=9D even if m can be negligible in most of the= cases. Also note > that the formula (L - 2m - 2d > 0) is exactly the same of RFC8321 if m=3D= 0, > indeed in case of a point-to-point flow we only have one marking node and > m=3D0. Maybe more explanation in the draft could help here. > > Agreed, let's more precisely define what m is, and clarify that marking nodes are switching colors based on synchronized clock time. > > --0000000000005badf005d241607b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 6:59 AM Giusep= pe Fioccola <giuseppe.fi= occola@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi Martin,

My answers inline as [GF].

=C2=A0

=

=C2=A0

I agree that there are many possibilities, but a sta= ndard should either provide guidance or (at least) work through the implica= tions of each. It should be more prescriptive; marking nodes and measuremen= t nodes need to have common expectations about the marking rules, although they can deterministically depend on whe= ther or not one can mark fragments (which is obviously deployment-dependent= ).

=C2=A0

I'm happy to be corrected by an expert, but afte= r thinking about it for a few minutes I would propose the following:=

(i) marking nodes MUST mark all fragments if there i= s a codepoint to use (i.e. it is in the IP header or encapsulation), as if = they were separate packets.

(ii) routers that fragment packets in a network unde= r test MUST NOT replicate marks (thus signalling that it was fragmented int= ernally), but SHOULD mark the first fragment if they have the capability to= do so.

(iii) Measurement points MAY simply ignore unmarked = fragments and count marked=C2=A0fragments as full packets. However, if reso= urces allow, Measurement Points SHOULD make note of marked initial fragment= s and only increment its counter if (a) other fragments are also marked, or (b) it observes all other fragments an= d they are unmarked.

=C2=A0

[GF]: I fully agree with your p= roposals. The marking node MUST mark all the fragments except in the case o= f fragmentation within the network domain; in this case it is suggested to = mark only the first packet. The condition about the counters also makes sense so it could be possible to keep track = of both marked and unmarked fragments. I can include these considerations i= n the next version.


Alright, please think it through and write up some text i= f you think it checks out.
=C2=A0

- I don't understand the L determination when th= ere are multiple marking nodes (Sec 7). "The source measurement interv= als can be of different lengths and with different offsets" Some questions:

(a) What is a "source measurement interval"= ;? Does it have anything to do with L?

(b) So let's say that source nodes start marking= at arbitrary times. Isn't the "offset" then directly a funct= ion of L? And if so, how can we scale L based on the offset m?

(c) if the idea is that there is a clock time when m= arking should begin, then why isn't the value of A [clock skew] embedde= d in d sufficient?

=C2=A0

[GF]: For a multipoint-to-multi= point flow, you may have multiple marking nodes, so there is an additional = contribution to take into account. Indeed, the marking nodes may apply the markings at different moments and this time offset doe= s not depend from the clock error or from the network delay but it is an in= trinsic delay of the router.

Regarding your questions:

a) it is the marking period. I = will replace it to be aligned with the terminology of the rest of the docum= ent.

b) yes, there is the formula: L= - 2m - 2d > 0

c) m is not given by clock skew, indeed A is already included in d.<= /span>

=C2=A0

I wasn't clear enough about (b). Let's say n= ode A has period L1, and node B is trying to set its L but is going to star= t at an arbitrary time. What is m for node B? It is a uniform distribution = over [0, L1]. so L2 has to be >> L1. But the same is true of A! The only way to disambiguate the blocks is for each L t= o be much bigger than all the other Ls, which is of course impossible.

=C2=A0

The only way I can see for this to work is for the m= arking nodes to agree a clock time to switch blocks, with fixed L, and then= you're only constrained by the clock skew and delay as in 8321.=

=C2=A0

To me this is the central problem 8889 is trying to = solve, and it's under-baked. Maybe there's a constraint I'm not= seeing?

=C2=A0

[GF]: Yes, the only way is that= the marking nodes switch blocks with fixed L based on a clock time. In the= ory the formula in RFC8321 applies also in case of multipoint network. But = we wanted to generalize that formula and let me explain the rationale. Since we have more marking nodes in a mu= ltipoint environment, there can be an additional mismatch to consider since= different nodes are marking the traffic and the batches get mixed in a mul= tipoint flow. For example, a marking node may apply the marking with a delay because it is overloaded while the= other marking nodes are not. To take into account this possible additional= gap between the sources we introduced =E2=80=9Cm=E2=80=9D even if m can be= negligible in most of the cases. Also note that the formula (L - 2m - 2d > 0) is exactly the same of RFC8321 if m=3D0, = indeed in case of a point-to-point flow we only have one marking node and m= =3D0. Maybe more explanation in the draft could help here.

=

Agreed, let's more precisely define what = m is, and clarify that marking nodes are switching colors based on synchron= ized clock time.

=C2=A0

--0000000000005badf005d241607b-- From nobody Mon Dec 6 02:06:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8298E3A09AE; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 02:06:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H2p4MiI-iGdR; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 02:06:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 436B33A09C0; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 02:06:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml708-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.226]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4J6zYr5vzgz67LSP; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 18:04:48 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.33) by fraeml708-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2308.20; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 11:06:29 +0100 Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) by fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) with mapi id 15.01.2308.020; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 11:06:29 +0100 From: Giuseppe Fioccola To: Martin Duke CC: "draft-fioccola-rfc8889bis.all@ietf.org" , IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: 1st AD review of rfc8889bis Thread-Index: AQHX5wkHYv0aySGXIUe9C9+wJquXw6we/jEggACG/4CAAUn5cIAAKySAgARHkqA= Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 10:06:28 +0000 Message-ID: <08c64473796c462aa40b5e41d88d4f7c@huawei.com> 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e0df65c6-2602-4d10-233e-08d9b8d06d05 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Dec 2021 15:52:37.0303 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 8MSxU1ntI2tfZ5lYYVbplWi/B6LAUgO/drQphjFHUqwoFN2PBKFIFum2m03t4URhABXBG5ZwZ8l7F7KABicRh0r/RKOVM7lhdnuix6vpeXA= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM0PR0702MB3747 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2021 15:52:45 -0000 --_000_AM0PR07MB41318B1FCDCF77FBF8E220EDE26D9AM0PR07MB4131eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi IPPM, This email starts an adoption call for draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-pr= otocol, " Test Protocol for One-way IP Capacity Measurement". This documen= t is intended for Standards Track and defines a protocol for measuring Netw= ork Capacity metrics defined in RFC 9097 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/= rfc9097/). https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol= / https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-pro= tocol-02 This adoption call will last until Monday, December 20. Please review the d= ocument, and reply to this email thread to indicate if you think IPPM shoul= d adopt this document. BR, Marcus --_000_AM0PR07MB41318B1FCDCF77FBF8E220EDE26D9AM0PR07MB4131eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi IPPM= ,

&n= bsp;

This em= ail starts an adoption call for draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol,= " Test Protocol for One-way IP C= apacity Measurement”.  This document is intended for Standards T= rack and defines a protocol for measuring Network Capacity metrics defined = in RFC 9097 (https://= datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9097/).

&n= bsp;

https= ://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol/=

&n= bsp;

This ad= option call will last until Monday, December 20. Please review the document, and reply to this e= mail thread to indicate if you think IPPM should adopt this document.<= /o:p>

&n= bsp;

BR,

Marcus =

 

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Mon, 6 Dec 2021 15:52:59 +0000 From: Marcus Ihlar To: "ippm@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness Thread-Index: AdfquNUJKsdYHHTaTOi3VLkEWROGkg== Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 15:52:58 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=ericsson.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: eed1729f-75dc-47e3-4516-08d9b8d07a18 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM4PR07MB3331:EE_ x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:7219; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi IPPM, This email starts an adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness, "= Responsiveness under Working Conditions". This document specifies the "RPM = Test" for measuring user experience when the network is fully loaded. The i= ntended status of the document is Experimental. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-01 This adoption call will last until Monday, December 20. Please review the d= ocument, and reply to this email thread to indicate if you think IPPM shoul= d adopt this document. BR, Marcus --_000_AM0PR07MB4131542BCD0A6DE3F82F1E19E26D9AM0PR07MB4131eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi IPPM= ,

&n= bsp;

This em= ail starts an adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness, "Re= sponsiveness under Working Conditions”. This document specifies the &= #8220;RPM Test” for measuring user experience when the network is fully loaded. The intended status of the document is Experiment= al.   

&n= bsp;

ht= tps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/<= /o:p>

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsivenes= s-01

&n= bsp;

This ad= option call will last until Monday, December 20. Please review the document, and reply to this e= mail thread to indicate if you think IPPM should adopt this document.<= /o:p>

&n= bsp;

BR,

Marcus =

 

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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Marcus, I support adoption. Regards, Ruediger Some comments: Section 3. Protocol Overview The client requires configuration of a test direction parameter (upstream or downstream test) as well as the hostname or IP address of the server in order to begin the setup and configuration exchanges with the server. RG: The draft also mentions a sender and a receiver. Both, client and serve= r may act as sender and receiver. This depends on the test direction, upstream or downstream. Words to that appear in "9. Method of Measurement", at the end of the doc. 4. Stopping the Test: The server initiates the phase to stop the test by setting the STOP1 indication in load PDUs or sstatus feedback messages. = ( ^^^^) RG: Would it be worth a thought to enable the client to terminate a test? ########## 5. Setup Request and Response Exchange The message format isn't "TLV". Is the protocol extensible (e.g. could secu= rity be adapted to future needs)? ########## 6.2. Test Activation Request - server response .....The remaining 28 octets of the Test Activation Request (normally read RG: A bit worrying, seems to be set by the sender in the reply to a request= only. See editorials... ########## 7.1. Test Packet PDU and Roles .... On the other hand, the test configuration MAY use a fixed sending rate requested by the client, RG: contains descriptive text about the method (e.g. decision on the sendin= g rate). The text there certainly is correct. I wonder, whether a reference replacing the tex= t would be sufficient? RG: Does the MAY here introduce a new method? If it does, would that requi= re to update the RFC specifying the method? ########### 10. Security Considerations RG: would a receiver (client and host) require an "Emergency Stop" message?= If yes, should it require authentication in order to avoid an attacker fro= m unwanted test termination? Would a three-way-handshake make sense to activate testing? (noting that th= e sender in that case also must be protected against opening of unbounded n= umbers of tests). A three way handshake protects against forged test set up= messages. What else could be forged? Do these require authentication or at least a di= scussion? * Response message feedback (indicating ramp-up/no drop where there's c= ongestion or the other way around, congestion where there is none). * Stop messages (unwanted termination) * Could a host or a client be tricked into persistently acting as a sen= der? ######## Editorials 6.2. Test Activation Request - server response ... When the server sends the Test Activation response back, it SHALL set the cmd Response field to: RG: Server Test Activation Reply (or Response - please apply stringently th= rough the text) When the server responds by a Test Activation Reply, it... ---- The server SHALL include all the test parameters again to make the client aware of any changes. RG: The server SHALL repeat all test parameters to indicate changes to the = client. ---- 8. Stopping the Test When the test duration timer on the server expires, it SHALL set the connection test action to STOP and also starts marking all outgoing load or status PDUs with a test action of STOP1. RG: ...and mark all outgoing load... ---- 10. Security Considerations A. Unathenticated mode (for all phases) Unauthenticated ^^^^ Von: ippm Im Auftrag von Marcus Ihlar Gesendet: Montag, 6. Dezember 2021 16:53 An: ippm@ietf.org Betreff: [ippm] draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol Hi IPPM, This email starts an adoption call for draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-pr= otocol, " Test Protocol for One-way IP Capacity Measurement". This documen= t is intended for Standards Track and defines a protocol for measuring Netw= ork Capacity metrics defined in RFC 9097 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/= rfc9097/). https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol= / https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-pro= tocol-02 This adoption call will last until Monday, December 20. Please review the d= ocument, and reply to this email thread to indicate if you think IPPM shoul= d adopt this document. BR, Marcus --_000_FR2P281MB0611DCCDFF10C22558470EC09C6E9FR2P281MB0611DEUP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Marcus,

 

I support adoption.

 

Regards, Ruediger

 

 

Some comments:

 

Section  3.  Protocol Overview<= /p>

 

   The client requires configuration of a = test direction parameter

   (upstream or downstream test) as well a= s the hostname or IP address

   of the server in order to begin the set= up and configuration exchanges

   with the server.

 

RG: The draft also mentions a sender and a receiver.= Both, client and server

may act as sender and receiver. This depends on the = test direction,

upstream or downstream.

Words to that appear in “9.  Method of Me= asurement”, at the end of the doc.

 

 

4.  Stopping the Test: The server initiates the= phase to stop the

       test by setting= the STOP1 indication in load PDUs or sstatus

       feedback messag= es.            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;    ( ^^^^)

 

RG: Would it be worth a thought to enable the client= to terminate a test?

 

##########

 

5.  Setup Request and Response Exchange

 

The message format isn’t “TLV”. Is= the protocol extensible (e.g. could security be adapted to future needs)?<= o:p>

 

##########

 

6.2.  Test Activation Request - server response=

 

…..The remaining 28 octets of the Test Activat= ion Request (normally read

 

RG: A bit worrying, seems to be set by the sender in= the reply to a request only. See editorials…

 

##########

 

7.1.  Test Packet PDU and Roles

 

…. On the other hand, the test configuration M= AY use a fixed sending

   rate requested by the client,

 

RG: contains descriptive text about the method (e.g.= decision on the sending rate). The text

there certainly is correct. I wonder, whether a refe= rence replacing the text would be sufficient?

 

RG:  Does the MAY here introduce a new method? = If it does, would that require to update the

RFC specifying the method?

 

###########

 

10.  Security Considerations

 

RG: would a receiver (client and host) require an &#= 8220;Emergency Stop” message? If yes, should it require authenticatio= n in order to avoid an attacker from unwanted test termination?<= /p>

 

Would a three-way-handshake make sense to activate t= esting? (noting that the sender in that case also must be protected against= opening of unbounded numbers of tests). A three way handshake protects aga= inst forged test set up messages.

 

What else could be forged? Do these require authenti= cation or at least a discussion?

  • Response message feedback (indicating ramp-up/no drop where thereR= 17;s congestion or the other way around, congestion where there is none).
  • Stop messages (unwanted termination)
    • Could a host or a client be tricked into persistently acting as a sender= ?

########

 

 

Editorials

 

6.2.  Test Activation Request - server response=

 

…   When the server sends the Test A= ctivation response back, it SHALL set

   the cmd Response field to:

 

RG: Server Test Activation Reply (or Response –= ; please apply stringently through the text)

When the server responds by a Test Activation Reply,= it…

 

----

 

   The server SHALL include all the test p= arameters again to make the

   client aware of any changes.=

 

RG: The server SHALL repeat all test parameters to i= ndicate changes to the client.

 

----

 

8.  Stopping the Test

 

   When the test duration timer on the ser= ver expires, it SHALL set the

   connection test action to STOP and also= starts marking all outgoing

   load or status PDUs with a test action = of STOP1.

 

RG: …and mark all outgoing load…

 

----

 

10.  Security Considerations

 

A. Unathenticated mode (for all phases)

 

Unauthenticated

    ^^^^

 

Von: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> Im Auftrag von Marcus Ihlar
Gesendet: Montag, 6. Dezember 2021 16:53
An: ippm@ietf.org
Betreff: [ippm] draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol

 

Hi IPPM= ,

&n= bsp;

This em= ail starts an adoption call for draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol,= " Test Protocol for One-way IP C= apacity Measurement”.  This document is intended for Standards T= rack and defines a protocol for measuring Network Capacity metrics defined = in RFC 9097 (https://= datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9097/).

&n= bsp;

https= ://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol/=

&n= bsp;

This ad= option call will last until Monday, December 20. Please review the document, and reply to this e= mail thread to indicate if you think IPPM should adopt this document.<= /o:p>

&n= bsp;

BR,

Marcus =

 

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boundary="_000_BN0PR02MB8173F964C7E2E0B6AF558329DC6F9BN0PR02MB8173namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BN0PR02MB8173.namprd02.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 62c36c17-8e20-4e2e-2a1a-08d9ba5f7a08 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 08 Dec 2021 15:29:08.0814 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: e741d71c-c6b6-47b0-803c-0f3b32b07556 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: aZI0CNEycaCc/qCPO4u/Mvo7qB9EuuC9fj4UITgvzITpctWcLuzFavcgoTx4VBku X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN0PR02MB8303 X-OriginatorOrg: att.com X-TM-SNTS-SMTP: 434823E73122CE180604FDFDFCB33430BE60A12CA38D1167D9C6A4108F1073BC2 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: N9UL_mRoaA4RE7-CO-qZ5LC-VvEGMtCn X-Proofpoint-GUID: N9UL_mRoaA4RE7-CO-qZ5LC-VvEGMtCn X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.205,Aquarius:18.0.790,Hydra:6.0.425,FMLib:17.11.62.513 definitions=2021-12-08_06,2021-12-08_01,2021-12-02_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 mlxlogscore=999 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 impostorscore=0 clxscore=1011 priorityscore=1501 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2110150000 definitions=main-2112080094 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2021 15:29:23 -0000 --_000_BN0PR02MB8173F964C7E2E0B6AF558329DC6F9BN0PR02MB8173namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Marcus and ippm, I have been working on the data model for the project based on this draft i= n Broadband Forum (where it is known as TR-471). I'd like to express my support for adoption of this document. This protocol= is a critical component in allowing for truly interoperable implementation= s of RFC 9097. Such interoperability is necessary for the widespread adopti= on and deployment of RFC 9097. Thanks, Chen Li Lead Member of Technical Staff Standards and Industry Alliances AT&T Labs Mobile: 512.568-9429 cl6313@att.com From: ippm > On Behalf = Of Marcus Ihlar Sent: Monday, December 6, 2021 10:53 AM To: ippm@ietf.org Subject: [ippm] draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol Hi IPPM, This email starts an adoption call for draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-pr= otocol, " Test Protocol for One-way IP Capacity Measurement". This documen= t is intended for Standards Track and defines a protocol for measuring Netw= ork Capacity metrics defined in RFC 9097 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/= rfc9097/)= . https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol= / https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-pro= tocol-02 This adoption call will last until Monday, December 20. Please review the d= ocument, and reply to this email thread to indicate if you think IPPM shoul= d adopt this document. BR, Marcus --_000_BN0PR02MB8173F964C7E2E0B6AF558329DC6F9BN0PR02MB8173namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Marcus and ippm,

 

I have been working on the data model for the project= based on this draft in Broadband Forum (where it is known as TR-471).

I’d like to express my support for adoption of = this document. This protocol is a critical component in allowing for truly = interoperable implementations of RFC 9097. Such interoperability is necessary for the widespread adoption and deployment of RFC 9097.<= /o:p>

 

Thanks,

&= nbsp;

Chen L= i

Lead Memb= er of Technical Staff

Standa= rds and Industry Alliances

AT&= ;T Labs

Mobile: 5= 12.568-9429

cl6313@att.com

 

 

From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Marcus Ihlar
Sent: Monday, December 6, 2021 10:53 AM
To: ippm@ietf.org
Subject: [ippm] draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol

 

Hi IPPM= ,

&n= bsp;

This em= ail starts an adoption call for draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol,= " Test Protocol for One-way IP C= apacity Measurement”.  This document is intended for Standards T= rack and defines a protocol for measuring Network Capacity metrics defined = in RFC 9097 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9097/).

&n= bsp;

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morton-ippm-capaci= ty-metric-protocol/

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-morton= -ippm-capacity-metric-protocol-02

&n= bsp;

This ad= option call will last until Monday, December 20. Please review the document, and reply to this e= mail thread to indicate if you think IPPM should adopt this document.<= /o:p>

&n= bsp;

BR,

Marcus =

 

 

--_000_BN0PR02MB8173F964C7E2E0B6AF558329DC6F9BN0PR02MB8173namp_-- From nobody Wed Dec 8 14:39:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietf.org Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 290BA3A07A9; Wed, 8 Dec 2021 14:38:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Benjamin Kaduk via Datatracker To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org, ippm-chairs@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org, Al Morton , acm@research.att.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.40.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Benjamin Kaduk Message-ID: <163900313914.32243.10599318073173855934@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2021 14:38:59 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-16: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2021 22:38:59 -0000 Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-16: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/blog/handling-iesg-ballot-positions/ for more information about how to handle DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Many thanks for the many updates in the -16, and my apologies for the delay in reballoting. I'm happy to report that the changes all look good to me, but do have one comment that seems to remain valid: In Section 6.3 where we discuss the POSIX-based timestamp format, I think we do need to say that it is affected by leap seconds (analogously to how we do for the NTP format), per the guidance in RFC 8877. I see in the email thread that there was some desire to defer to 8877 rather than try to reproduce a lot of it here (and inevitably end up with an incomplete treatment); in that case, perhaps the Section 6.2 discussion should be trimmed so that we provide an analogous level of detail on all three timestamp formats. 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boundary="_000_BL3P223MB0242109078363A69E4380A85ED709BL3P223MB0242NAMP_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: assia-inc.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BL3P223MB0242.NAMP223.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ef437921-dabc-4c28-9529-08d9bb16b7f6 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Dec 2021 13:20:49.8920 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 886c0342-292d-464e-ad24-2e396667eba9 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: cPOmY5hvSLkDy/YVkv2xroqzH8/Qub2LnrzDeufP/2LAOTIYdZydz4PuGSET+BfjoaGnIOh+J74FgASSOVCpsQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL3P223MB0035 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] RFC 9097 X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2021 13:20:57 -0000 --_000_BL3P223MB0242109078363A69E4380A85ED709BL3P223MB0242NAMP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Friends at IPPM, I've been working with Al and others in the Broadband Forum on the new UDP = speed tests now being defined in draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol= . I'd like to express my support for adoption of draft-morton-ippm-capacity-m= etric-protocol in RFC 9097. We plan to use this across many future deployments, for carriers, regulator= s, and users. This is a most high-performance, standardized, way of running speed tests, = and IETF adoption is vital. Thanks, Ken Kerpez ASSIA Inc. +1 908 432-1600 kkerpez@assia-inc.com From: ippm >> On Behalf Of Marcus Ihla= r Sent: Monday, December 6, 2021 10:53 AM To: ippm@ietf.org> Subject: [ippm] draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol Hi IPPM, This email starts an adoption call for draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-pr= otocol, " Test Protocol for One-way IP Capacity Measurement". This documen= t is intended for Standards Track and defines a protocol for measuring Netw= ork Capacity metrics defined in RFC 9097 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/= rfc9097/>). https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol= /> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-pro= tocol-02> This adoption call will last until Monday, December 20. Please review the d= ocument, and reply to this email thread to indicate if you think IPPM shoul= d adopt this document. BR, Marcus --_000_BL3P223MB0242109078363A69E4380A85ED709BL3P223MB0242NAMP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Friends at IPPM,

 

I’ve been working with Al and others in the Br= oadband Forum on the new UDP speed tests now being defined in draft-morton-= ippm-capacity-metric-protocol.

I'd like to express my support for adoption of draft= -morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol in RFC 9097.

We plan to use this across many future deployment= s, for carriers, regulators, and users.

This is a most high-performance, standardized, wa= y of running speed tests, and IETF adoption is vital.

 

Thanks,

Ken Kerpez

ASSIA Inc.

+1 908 432-1600

kkerpez@assia-inc.com

 

 

From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ippm-= bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Marcus Ihlar

Sent: Monday, December 6, 2021 10:53 AM

To: ippm@ietf.org<mailto:ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: [ippm] draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric= -protocol

 

Hi IPPM,

 

This email starts an adoption call for draft-mort= on-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol, " Test Protocol for One-way IP Capac= ity Measurement".  This document is intended for Standards Track = and defines a protocol for measuring Network Capacity metrics defined in RFC 9097 (= https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9097/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__ht= tps:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9097/__;!!BhdT!3uIFZg83XC7WyNXz9JFuqjOvd4m= 2Arj8gQk94KqaXVcPo0uS254KMgdekTQI$>).

 

https://d= atatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol/<http= s://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morton-ippm-c= apacity-metric-protocol/__;!!BhdT!3uIFZg83XC7WyNXz9JFuqjOvd4m2Arj8gQk94KqaX= VcPo0uS254KMuggP2kO$>

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metri= c-protocol-02<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/do= c/html/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol-02__;!!BhdT!3uIFZg83XC7Wy= NXz9JFuqjOvd4m2Arj8gQk94KqaXVcPo0uS254KMuOaN6cK$>

 

This adoption call will last until Monday, Decemb= er 20. Please review the document, and reply to this email thread to indica= te if you think IPPM should adopt this document.

 

BR,

Marcus

 

 

--_000_BL3P223MB0242109078363A69E4380A85ED709BL3P223MB0242NAMP_-- From nobody Thu Dec 9 10:16:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDBB33A079F for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2021 10:16:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d1gFMAXaGSju for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2021 10:16:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 363773A079D for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2021 10:16:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml709-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.201]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4J92Dv2Ps3z67NyB; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 02:12:15 +0800 (CST) Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.33) by fraeml709-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2308.20; Thu, 9 Dec 2021 19:16:30 +0100 Received: from fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) by fraeml714-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.206.15.33]) with mapi id 15.01.2308.020; Thu, 9 Dec 2021 19:16:30 +0100 From: Giuseppe Fioccola To: Martin Duke CC: IETF IPPM WG Thread-Topic: new version of RFC8321bis and RFC8889bis Thread-Index: AdftJ2BrmRQFG3drRvW9xawZLVZBlw== Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 18:16:30 +0000 Message-ID: <32d0d908a32142e594d323ae12be146b@huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.48.212.160] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_32d0d908a32142e594d323ae12be146bhuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] new version of RFC8321bis and RFC8889bis X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2021 18:16:39 -0000 --_000_32d0d908a32142e594d323ae12be146bhuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Martin, All, Please note that I just submitted a new revision of both RFC8321bis (https:= //www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-fioccola-rfc8321bis-01.txt) and RFC8889bis = (https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-fioccola-rfc8889bis-01.txt). I tried to address the issues raised by Martin. Feedback will be welcome. Regards, Giuseppe --_000_32d0d908a32142e594d323ae12be146bhuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Martin, All,

Please note that I just submitt= ed a new revision of both RFC8321bis (https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/dra= ft-fioccola-rfc8321bis-01.txt) and RFC8889bis (https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-fioccola-rfc8889bis-01= .txt).

I tried to address the issues r= aised by Martin.

 

Feedback will be welcome.<= /o:p>

 

Regards,

 

Giuseppe

 

--_000_32d0d908a32142e594d323ae12be146bhuaweicom_-- From nobody Thu Dec 9 10:42:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCE0A3A08B7 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2021 10:42:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.988 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.988 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=iol.unh.edu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kev6-RDq7fbr for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2021 10:41:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ed1-x531.google.com (mail-ed1-x531.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::531]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DECCD3A0826 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2021 10:41:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ed1-x531.google.com with SMTP id y12so21934193eda.12 for ; Thu, 09 Dec 2021 10:41:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=iol.unh.edu; s=unh-iol; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1T3D1hc2xXRcg1J4skyIcfe4zegJRXvhMHGxAsvkmeE=; b=MG280cMmKSFKbZE07zTqNvfhlZl8oDOcpJR7P8NcbwS4tVtEiKAdWW4MlIQ+DObHRp mUNQGgkopEfMYc2hZjx9GQ05ugeGxKbsfTKToQk9iBk9z179NegTTspFj922mYz9fmvg Zl85BrlJZ9TitvSoRAyH8t+iuQKiZZ837TYE4= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1T3D1hc2xXRcg1J4skyIcfe4zegJRXvhMHGxAsvkmeE=; b=IZ4iW3rAE4499frpLGPfFSvAlS1c5HUOWhVzhBnjV1QUxhNfrUpctZZHWPi+Wk6tTH bVlrcU4Fn6oGDt9VNZDgWS13TmaWkgVlM1ulBpjx0W21c60jccLOJy7Xnz32/2uZKd87 ZDgasNKDhnnFopsUUeFb2yqF6mGE9LwD/bsASzBeYaEHQB5fhqLRI2n8tkCoohHrOGNg U37saoM276d71krL0sfjHruoUy/GTAt0l+hz6ShMjRlEowspK6Q2jTGLqs+Rn2Q39nKk LN2QNYjhpWwHo6u70rBT4SOdFnIGaX6r5CePC6yoTdn5I1eqhx6PVL/TIztNkGrk5dcs q1JA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533gMaUwievs1IoAxqIVIIieTKbdzPX60bflEMO1JdsLSAD1uQXf r62gKKPnJVLRy4GYazl26vRkuIIH6ljVA4Vj3nEPU433wHo05A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxHhVq7tB7wbDs82TGTQYRH/k+Ey6QIUoMxkUKLLPtJyr5OkHrup06YvrvuoRn8URbG7BN7Geg7zvLKPWtwtT0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:1a27:: with SMTP id be7mr31500336edb.187.1639075316040; Thu, 09 Dec 2021 10:41:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Lincoln Lavoie Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 13:41:44 -0500 Message-ID: To: Marcus Ihlar Cc: "ippm@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f9238305d2baf59a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2021 18:42:04 -0000 --000000000000f9238305d2baf59a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Marcus & All, First, I am completely in support of moving forward with the draft. Thank you to Al and team for all of their hard work in developing these materials= . I've reviewed the 02 version and don't have any additional comments at this time. Cheers, Lincoln On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 10:52 AM Marcus Ihlar wrote: > Hi IPPM, > > > > This email starts an adoption call for > draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol, " Test Protocol for One-way > IP Capacity Measurement=E2=80=9D. This document is intended for Standard= s Track > and defines a protocol for measuring Network Capacity metrics defined in > RFC 9097 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9097/). > > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protoc= ol/ > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-p= rotocol-02 > > > > This adoption call will last until *Monday, December 20*. Please review > the document, and reply to this email thread to indicate if you think IPP= M > should adopt this document. > > > > BR, > > Marcus > > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > --=20 *Lincoln Lavoie* Principal Engineer, Broadband Technologies 21 Madbury Rd., Ste. 100, Durham, NH 03824 lylavoie@iol.unh.edu https://www.iol.unh.edu +1-603-674-2755 (m) --000000000000f9238305d2baf59a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hel= lo Marcus & All,

Firs= t, I am completely in support of moving forward with the draft. Thank you t= o Al and team for all of their hard work in developing these materials.

I've reviewed the 02 ver= sion and don't have any additional=C2=A0comments=C2=A0at this time.

Cheers,
Lincoln



On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 1= 0:52 AM Marcus Ihlar <marcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Hi IPPM,<= u>

= =C2=A0

This emai= l starts an adoption call for draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol, &= quot; Test Protocol for One-way IP Cap= acity Measurement=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 This document is intended for Standards T= rack and defines a protocol for measuring Network Capacity metrics defined = in RFC 9097 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9097/).

= =C2=A0

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-met= ric-protocol/

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-morton-ippm-c= apacity-metric-protocol-02

= =C2=A0

This adop= tion call will last until Monday, December 20. Please review the document, and reply to this e= mail thread to indicate if you think IPPM should adopt this document.

= =C2=A0

BR,

Marcus

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm


--
Lincoln Lavoie
Prin= cipal Engineer, Broadband Technologies
21 Madbury Rd., Ste. 100, = Durham, NH 03824
+1-603-674-= 2755 (m)

--000000000000f9238305d2baf59a-- From nobody Thu Dec 9 16:25:25 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C18D3A15A0 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2021 16:25:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QrV4MA0cH1Bf for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2021 16:25:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ed1-x531.google.com (mail-ed1-x531.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::531]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE74F3A15A3 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2021 16:25:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ed1-x531.google.com with SMTP id e3so25321935edu.4 for ; Thu, 09 Dec 2021 16:25:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=gfOwJR9SGA6YW9P/SROlB/mPe/1qNwCLpbSy2HIDMP0=; b=DA1XfdQsbtjUTu1atomnjU8Sn/hdZbsClI26aoc27fU/mu71A8Esh155t40wX79w2T AGJYAROT9H96ynrkobWmCWoIj7mczDtmNX0eAbW6S5Q8eSMOirWUCpc8qYW0oUj1YuVM aMm5iJyvgJc65yd6AqmAO/WsGx/cU3SFpa74dsayTuFyBPcIlBSn8vHrXuvZUFEzi9n8 c6cxLu5ReWDgV9wOzeoCrU/FXzuIR9G/5yr1gBZbE4xLOE1xFw4NhrEALx/p+Nn4DKi0 WD+h4GYWzigxpFsx+nsIvAjDcUD/QDe88Qq3LkIwoi8sYLe5gBInk8klVrfTzz8fsIoK PCGA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=gfOwJR9SGA6YW9P/SROlB/mPe/1qNwCLpbSy2HIDMP0=; b=ORm+LGm8wSIsk5m56V/OMW2Rl5cZQ/SUuP1HZRQhC+XtcESyTfEK7u0Jw6bSfgr1zc vlSUbqH3PZjA1KdtzhTIWg9y15eXKsax/YJuA6nk7+amQDR3pkoLoUPpPBZCfmISSsSD cfw2cHfJsaT8XqzTFzE6KCz/5ewYDlZpmkwXFgzrj6+njBxRK2IWhP1lmMykw1sFap7+ C5xXPITlKOq1eCpjdrqclTjkf7clp/QfVUWlYoEUCi5mdBy30uJYk1bb2npZ1USEgiPm QHeT1IL1D0OiB0IWefSo2J7Iik+kRavD2KAXmG+6BnhlXwr7e3RFx8vusA2EykDeFQFM +xVQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532k/h+O7Xq67jBjkqr1/NiRoRx2V4z68DBAbsZ0cRqOsyZI8miL tvrZWXUqrW2fBPBfM7jUXtVfqjBc2OI1s5ZwlWw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxcSCGFNyTBJBl/r8pgfAYaCcDsU2M1fWfSrjYEdOVh5ctJY2NSCTK/enjQmAsL+9AzZymdiRl/J4ZNRU/8cLc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:354c:: with SMTP id f12mr34767962edd.256.1639095915935; Thu, 09 Dec 2021 16:25:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2021 16:25:04 -0800 Message-ID: To: Marcus Ihlar Cc: "ippm@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d27c8105d2bfc1ec" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 00:25:24 -0000 --000000000000d27c8105d2bfc1ec Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Marcus, I support the adoption of this draft by the IPPM WG. This is an essential part of the work on the IP network capacity measurement. Regards, Greg On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 7:52 AM Marcus Ihlar wrote: > Hi IPPM, > > > > This email starts an adoption call for > draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol, " Test Protocol for One-way > IP Capacity Measurement=E2=80=9D. This document is intended for Standard= s Track > and defines a protocol for measuring Network Capacity metrics defined in > RFC 9097 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9097/). > > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protoc= ol/ > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-p= rotocol-02 > > > > This adoption call will last until *Monday, December 20*. Please review > the document, and reply to this email thread to indicate if you think IPP= M > should adopt this document. > > > > BR, > > Marcus > > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > --000000000000d27c8105d2bfc1ec Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Marcus,
I support the adoption of this draft by the= IPPM WG.
This is an essential part of the work on the IP network= capacity measurement.

Regards,
Greg

On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 7:52 AM Marcus Ihlar <marcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>= ; wrote:

Hi IPPM,<= u>

= =C2=A0

This emai= l starts an adoption call for draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol, &= quot; Test Protocol for One-way IP Cap= acity Measurement=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 This document is intended for Standards T= rack and defines a protocol for measuring Network Capacity metrics defined = in RFC 9097 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9097/).

= =C2=A0

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-met= ric-protocol/

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-morton-ippm-c= apacity-metric-protocol-02

= =C2=A0

This adop= tion call will last until Monday, December 20. Please review the document, and reply to this e= mail thread to indicate if you think IPPM should adopt this document.

= =C2=A0

BR,

Marcus

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
--000000000000d27c8105d2bfc1ec-- From nobody Thu Dec 9 22:30:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietf.org Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CCF33A011D; Thu, 9 Dec 2021 22:30:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: ippm@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.40.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ippm@ietf.org Message-ID: <163911781540.11261.15412433800912494118@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2021 22:30:15 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state-02.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 06:30:15 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF. Title : Echo Request/Reply for Enabled In-situ OAM Capabilities Authors : Xiao Min Greg Mirsky Lei Bo Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state-02.txt Pages : 19 Date : 2021-12-09 Abstract: This document describes an extension to the echo request/reply mechanisms used in IPv6 (including SRv6), MPLS (including SR-MPLS), SFC and BIER environments, which can be used within the IOAM domain, allowing the IOAM encapsulating node to discover the enabled IOAM capabilities of each IOAM transit and IOAM decapsulating node. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state/ There is also an htmlized version available at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state-02 Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts From nobody Thu Dec 9 23:01:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30B343A07D2 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2021 23:01:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bpkNViOVL0KB for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2021 23:01:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxhk.zte.com.cn (mxhk.zte.com.cn [63.216.63.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD2B43A07CD for ; Thu, 9 Dec 2021 23:01:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxct.zte.com.cn (unknown [192.168.251.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mxhk.zte.com.cn (FangMail) with ESMTPS id 4J9MDW3NpMz4yjYV for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:58:03 +0800 (CST) Received: from mse-fl2.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.14.239]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mxct.zte.com.cn (FangMail) with ESMTPS id 4J9MHc2Hmmz510Y0 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 15:00:44 +0800 (CST) Received: from njxapp04.zte.com.cn ([10.41.132.203]) by mse-fl2.zte.com.cn with SMTP id 1BA70UqO080692 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 15:00:30 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from xiao.min2@zte.com.cn) Received: from mapi (njxapp02[null]) by mapi (Zmail) with MAPI id mid201; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 15:00:30 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 15:00:30 +0800 (CST) X-Zmail-TransId: 2afa61b2fb0e648d8ce1 X-Mailer: Zmail v1.0 Message-ID: <202112101500302348450@zte.com.cn> Mime-Version: 1.0 From: To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-MAIL: mse-fl2.zte.com.cn 1BA70UqO080692 X-Fangmail-Gw-Spam-Type: 0 X-FangMail-Miltered: at cgslv5.04-192.168.250.138.novalocal with ID 61B2FA7B.000 by FangMail milter! X-FangMail-Envelope: 1639119483/4J9MDW3NpMz4yjYV/61B2FA7B.000/192.168.251.13/[192.168.251.13]/mxct.zte.com.cn/ X-Fangmail-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-Fangmail-MID-QID: 61B2FA7B.000/4J9MDW3NpMz4yjYV Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] =?utf-8?q?Progressing=C2=A0draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-stat?= =?utf-8?q?e?= X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 07:01:19 -0000 Hi IPPM WG, The -02 version of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state has been posted. There are mainly two changes, one is on IOAM Tracing Capabilities Objects to make them applicable to ICMPv6 extensions, another one is on IOAM Proof-of-Transit Capabilities Object to make it aligned with the updated IOAM-Data document. Also note that I've had an offline discussion with wg chairs and Frank Brockners, my conclusion is that Frank's concern raised at IETF 112 has been addressed. If that's not the case, please speak up. With that said, I think this draft is ready for WGLC. Best Regards, Xiao Min From nobody Mon Dec 13 05:19:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietf.org Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A82D3A08C3; Mon, 13 Dec 2021 05:19:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: ippm@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.41.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ippm@ietf.org Message-ID: <163940157925.22192.17800446608999335448@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 05:19:39 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-17.txt X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 13:19:39 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF. Title : Data Fields for In-situ OAM Authors : Frank Brockners Shwetha Bhandari Tal Mizrahi Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-17.txt Pages : 48 Date : 2021-12-13 Abstract: In-situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (IOAM) records operational and telemetry information in the packet while the packet traverses a path in the network. This document discusses the data fields and associated data types for in-situ OAM. In-situ OAM data fields can be encapsulated into a variety of protocols such as NSH, Segment Routing, Geneve, or IPv6. In-situ OAM can be used to complement OAM mechanisms based on, e.g., ICMP or other types of probe packets. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data/ There is also an htmlized version available at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-17 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-17 Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts From nobody Mon Dec 13 05:29:46 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFE513A08D9; Mon, 13 Dec 2021 05:29:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.596 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.596 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, 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b=vgTo60e08O+iwyeGcamLKHyWQiXosSbznIZ1Oyt/U68fIyNrqipxLQwRz7LhhMJYgLav57GtW/AWcjX3WRrhIvjABimEmb0B1tA1s2WnjRaLKbBUbM/lOSep2ulwMNqJYA0AkK39MCfKUxoDtwg5C+NnIPTriVIT3QyBxYAsP4s= Received: from DM8PR11MB5606.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:8:3c::23) by DM8PR11MB5623.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:8:25::20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4778.17; Mon, 13 Dec 2021 13:29:36 +0000 Received: from DM8PR11MB5606.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d840:22bd:2167:ae39]) by DM8PR11MB5606.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::d840:22bd:2167:ae39%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4778.013; Mon, 13 Dec 2021 13:29:36 +0000 From: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" To: Benjamin Kaduk , The IESG , Martin Vigoureux CC: "draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org" , "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" , Al Morton , Martin Duke Thread-Topic: Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-16: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: 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cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.22, xbe-aln-007.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Benjamin Kaduk's No Objection on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-16: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 13:29:45 -0000 SGkgQmVuLA0KDQpPbmNlIG1vcmU6IFRoYW5rcyBhIGxvdCBmb3IgeW91ciBjb21tZW50cyENCg0K V2UndmUganVzdCBwb3N0ZWQgYSBuZXcgcmV2aXNpb24gb2YgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1pcHBtLWlvYW0t ZGF0YSAoaHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRmLm9yZy9kb2MvaHRtbC9kcmFmdC1pZXRmLWlw cG0taW9hbS1kYXRhLTE3KS4NCg0KUmV2aXNpb24gLTE3IGF2b2lkcyB0aGUgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBv ZiBsZWFwIHNlY29uZHMgZm9yIGFueSBvZiB0aGUgdGltZXN0YW1wIGZvcm1hdHMgdGhhdCBJT0FN IHVzZXMuIFBlciB3aGF0IHlvdSBpbnNwaXJlZCBpbiB5b3VyIG5vdGUgYmVsb3csIHRoaXMgbWFr 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IGxvdCBvZiBpdCBoZXJlIChhbmQgaW5ldml0YWJseSBlbmQgdXAgd2l0aCBhbg0KPiBpbmNvbXBs ZXRlIHRyZWF0bWVudCk7IGluIHRoYXQgY2FzZSwgcGVyaGFwcyB0aGUgU2VjdGlvbiA2LjIgZGlz Y3Vzc2lvbiBzaG91bGQNCj4gYmUgdHJpbW1lZCBzbyB0aGF0IHdlIHByb3ZpZGUgYW4gYW5hbG9n b3VzIGxldmVsIG9mIGRldGFpbCBvbiBhbGwgdGhyZWUNCj4gdGltZXN0YW1wIGZvcm1hdHMuDQo+ IA0KPiANCg0K From nobody Mon Dec 13 10:33:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietf.org Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 721953A09E9; Mon, 13 Dec 2021 10:33:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.41.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: Al Morton , The IESG , acm@research.att.com, draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data@ietf.org, ippm-chairs@ietf.org, ippm@ietf.org, martin.h.duke@gmail.com, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <163942039244.6123.3810460847927081026@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 10:33:12 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] Protocol Action: 'Data Fields for In-situ OAM' to Proposed Standard (draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-17.txt) X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2021 18:33:13 -0000 The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Data Fields for In-situ OAM' (draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-17.txt) as Proposed Standard This document is the product of the IP Performance Measurement Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Zaheduzzaman Sarker and Martin Duke. A URL of this Internet Draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data/ Technical Summary This memo describes a specific type of OAM capability intended to operate within a network domain, and complements traditional measurement tools for connectivity and route discovery (such as ping and traceroute). This form is called In-situ-OAM, and the techniques employed fall in the RFC 7799 category of Hybrid Type I (as a combination of Active measurement using synthetic traffic and pure Passive observations of user traffic, by adding measurement-specific information to user traffic). Packets with In-situ OAM encapsulation record information as they traverse nodes within a specific network domain. This information includes timestamps, identification of interfaces, and other details that can assist with OAM activities which include new ones, such as proof of transit (exactly which nodes/interfaces were visited). The IOAM encapsulation will be added/ removed at domain ingress/egress, may be added to all or a subset of packets, and updated at all or a subset of transit nodes. IOAM Namespaces provide another dimension of flexibility for actions. This memo will be used a as a reference for additional RFCs that specify encapsulations in a variety of protocols, such as Segment Routing, Geneve, or IPv6. Working Group Summary This work topic & proposal was bounced-around a bit before finding an appropriate home in Transport Area and IPPM WG. Many of the details of IOAM data fields and operations were discussed at length on e-mail and debated at side meetings. Further the development used GitHub's capabilities to track issues and the discussion to resolve each item. https://github.com/inband-oam/ietf/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aclosed Document Quality This document provides a data model that will be used by various encapsulations. One of these encapsulations (IPv6 options) is already adopted by IPPM and another (Geneve) is an individual draft. Personnel The shepherd is Al Morton. The Responsible AD is Martin Duke. The IANA Experts for the registries in this document are Frank Brockners and Tal Mizrahi . IESG Note There was a discussion in IETF Last Call about integrity protection of IOAM. The result was that the authors submitted a separate draft, which is being fast-tracked in IPPM, added an informative reference to this draft. From nobody Tue Dec 14 19:41:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04103A03AA for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 19:41:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nbj9iA2Z7pfC for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 19:41:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x134.google.com (mail-il1-x134.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E10D63A033F for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 19:41:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x134.google.com with SMTP id 15so18803617ilq.2 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 19:41:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=AUKOGGgvt+CQWVlI3RSQiP8PIJb1ONCAfkIXSaLZc5M=; b=ihLkpdkfXuOdEr1saUbcG77P3j4LKHm0dh97IoywQdAYGQcaLWs/ZoHGeU0dFJqnXf Shx531RqCtPcOd5gKo+BhpN274dwgzKYRnf77zJ8uw+WJ+9xz3ahrI0Xwa4q+fRB3+9M mC1h1ozCV0EcQbOeEcRXhgcI7EhKY3waZR3zYqv251FM2NA8KM8z6fMbjPR+Muyu+TNj Tnto7zHhAf6R0Pkz+w4X9huh6px1BasLF++W0c2s6zr5INhI1svvHcqoaWWlJx4peLe6 EDx59OJADIEZlARAB1BfkttiCDyMnBCFenbnrul2WU7j1g628+4cAHg5V3TJFg5wkM1g o4iA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=AUKOGGgvt+CQWVlI3RSQiP8PIJb1ONCAfkIXSaLZc5M=; b=DXpsOSl7/Acge8G3c3HLRY52LQjIPtx28iZ1fKcJQas2RNJ+Lj4lrjI/xJk9E51/Cd bWKzAGJSgu8ZMt1Y8DNQ/RHRv5dEl67RAmvBBXJqBoDH7Q+8tiGVR+bEupyylW4AijBt Z2Kq+jpCaC/PCArFRHIEaVTbng1X9nqOBlyL5X++yPXhrMb+2Pa7dYoIgZDU5SNoZCd/ 053DKH/1l3cKGPBCZ4HtHMy2KcDUg8pJew0L5A4ooOo/92JjOfEjxSLvESVWzh1bS2am oWRoNyMA74weyMtsBBMHTgwAnexnhhHvKiQoC+P6RVS1/52+IYxj3UTfD1z1oW8FbDYO TjWQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532T0BSgN8uW6tpyw6jmKbcB8EvbHf6q2oow4DNcI/YjjAIOMvhW 4U7wQYzR29uLIruX/dy6QUhn7Kj/E03/Hqf7x/TtEwK9l1k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwFjjHVEyAZb1c1MDR8M1OH53qQprJP4k5LQjTzqEb/SEiUPgmRKMOkd2hD0jlgKFv67XyqOBeKoOnyuqVNxbQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:b24:: with SMTP id e4mr5527191ilu.32.1639539698341; Tue, 14 Dec 2021 19:41:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: can desem Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2021 14:41:27 +1100 Message-ID: To: Marcus Ihlar Cc: "ippm@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000509bd305d327151a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2021 03:41:46 -0000 --000000000000509bd305d327151a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Marcus and all, I would like to express my support for the adoption of this protocol. I believe that this will be a really useful standards based tool for IP capacity measurement, especially at gigabit speeds and expect to see it widely adopted in the industry. Regards, Can Desem On Tue, Dec 7, 2021 at 2:52 AM Marcus Ihlar wrote: > Hi IPPM, > > > > This email starts an adoption call for > draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol, " Test Protocol for One-way > IP Capacity Measurement=E2=80=9D. This document is intended for Standard= s Track > and defines a protocol for measuring Network Capacity metrics defined in > RFC 9097 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9097/). > > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protoc= ol/ > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-p= rotocol-02 > > > > This adoption call will last until *Monday, December 20*. Please review > the document, and reply to this email thread to indicate if you think IPP= M > should adopt this document. > > > > BR, > > Marcus > > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > --000000000000509bd305d327151a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Marcus and all,

I would like to expr= ess my support for the adoption of this protocol. I believe that this will = be a really useful standards based tool for IP capacity measurement, especi= ally at gigabit speeds and expect to see it widely adopted in the industry.=

Regards,
Can Desem

On Tue, Dec 7, = 2021 at 2:52 AM Marcus Ihlar <marcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org&g= t; wrote:

Hi IPPM,<= u>

= =C2=A0

This emai= l starts an adoption call for draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol, &= quot; Test Protocol for One-way IP Cap= acity Measurement=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 This document is intended for Standards T= rack and defines a protocol for measuring Network Capacity metrics defined = in RFC 9097 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9097/).

= =C2=A0

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-met= ric-protocol/

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-morton-ippm-c= apacity-metric-protocol-02

= =C2=A0

This adop= tion call will last until Monday, December 20. Please review the document, and reply to this e= mail thread to indicate if you think IPPM should adopt this document.

= =C2=A0

BR,

Marcus

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
--000000000000509bd305d327151a-- From nobody Wed Dec 15 10:16:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietf.org Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07C593A08B4; Wed, 15 Dec 2021 10:16:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Secretariat To: Cc: ippm@ietf.org, ipr-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.41.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <163959221302.22590.13374265640491672374@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2021 10:16:53 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] IPR Disclosure Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd's Statement about IPR related to draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2021 18:16:53 -0000 Dear Haoyu Song, Barak Gafni, Tianran Zhou, Zhenbin Li, Frank Brockners, Shwetha Bhandari, Ramesh Sivakolundu, Tal Mizrahi: An IPR disclosure that pertains to your Internet-Draft entitled "In-situ OAM Direct Exporting" (draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export) was submitted to the IETF Secretariat on 2021-12-05 and has been posted on the "IETF Page of Intellectual Property Rights Disclosures" (https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/5329/). The title of the IPR disclosure is "Huawei Technologies Co.,Ltd's Statement about IPR related to draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-direct-export" Thank you IETF Secretariat From nobody Thu Dec 16 04:54:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90F043A0E71 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2021 04:54:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.596 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.596 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=fK4lj1pB; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com 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YXQgc2FpZCwgSSB0aGluayB0aGlzIGRyYWZ0IGlzIHJlYWR5IGZvciBXR0xDLg0KPiANCj4gQmVz dCBSZWdhcmRzLA0KPiBYaWFvIE1pbg0KPiANCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gaXBwbSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gaXBwbUBpZXRmLm9y Zw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lwcG0NCg== From nobody Thu Dec 16 18:28:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31F393A0FC0 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:28:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CTE_8BIT_MISMATCH=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost 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X-Zmail-TransId: 2afa61bbf5d321e1dd9b X-Mailer: Zmail v1.0 Message-ID: <202112171028356091854@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: References: 202112101500302348450@zte.com.cn, CY4PR11MB1672EE19AF2E99EE77BAF5D3DA779@CY4PR11MB1672.namprd11.prod.outlook.com Mime-Version: 1.0 From: To: Cc: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-MAIL: mse-fl1.zte.com.cn 1BH2SZKU068546 X-Fangmail-Gw-Spam-Type: 0 X-FangMail-Miltered: at cgslv5.04-192.168.250.138.novalocal with ID 61BBF5E0.001 by FangMail milter! X-FangMail-Envelope: 1639708128/4JFXwc1lzzz6FK1j/61BBF5E0.001/10.30.14.238/[10.30.14.238]/mse-fl1.zte.com.cn/ X-Fangmail-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-Fangmail-MID-QID: 61BBF5E0.001/4JFXwc1lzzz6FK1j Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] =?utf-8?q?Progressing=C2=A0draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-stat?= =?utf-8?q?e?= X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 02:28:58 -0000 Hi Frank, Thanks for your thorough review and thoughtful comments. I apologize if I misinterpreted your mind. Considering that your holiday season is coming, before digging into technical details, I suggest that we discuss the IOAM deployment environment first. As you may have noticed while reading through draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state-02, in the introduction section it says "A centralized controller which owns the enabled IOAM capabilities of each IOAM device could be used in some IOAM deployments. The IOAM encapsulating node can discover the enabled IOAM capabilities infomation from the centralized controller, using, for example, NETCONF/YANG, PCEP, or BGP. In the IOAM deployment scenario where there is no centralized controller, NETCONF/YANG or IGP may be used by the IOAM encapsulating node to discover these IOAM capabilities information." I know you're the primary author of both IOAM-Data and IOAM-Deployment documents, so I have a fundamental question to you: Is the above statement correct or not? More specifically, if you can confirm that "the IOAM deployment scenario where there is no centralized controller" doesn't exist at all, on both the mailing list and the IOAM-Deployment document, then I suggest IPPM WG to abandon draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state, that would save the energy of the whole wg including you and me. Best Regards, Xiao Min ------------------原始邮件------------------ 发件人：FrankBrockners(fbrockne) 收件人：肖敏10093570;ippm@ietf.org; 抄送人：Tommy Pauly; 日 期 ：2021年12月16日 20:56 主 题 ：RE: [ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state Hi Xiao Min, Thanks for posting draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state-02. I read through the updated version and looked at the diff to the 01 version (https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state-01&url2=draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state-02). Different from what you state below, I don't see any of my comments reflected. The two main points I mentioned in the last WG meeting were about (a) alignment with draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang and (b) enhancements to the security section, reflecting that the protocol you are defining is a network management protocol, and needs to be secured as such. More specifically: * Alignment with draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang: The IPPM WG is in the process of defining a YANG module for IOAM: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang. We should have a single, comprehensive model for config information for IOAM. That model can then be rendered into different transports (be it JSON, XML, or yet another format - to then be carried over a e.g. ICMP in your case). Right now draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state heads down a path of defining a new set of management objects - many are similar to what draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang already defines, some they are less comprehensive, some hint at additional information that draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang does not cover yet: E.g., you define a "Pre-allocated Tracing Capabilities Object" where draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang has a "Preallocated Tracing Profile" defined. You define ingress interface fields, which is information, which is more comprehensively defined by the ioam-filter grouping. You define specific fields to describe the timestamp format used by a node, which is information that should be described as part of the ioam-info container - and which is currently missing in draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang; point well taken :-). It is interesting to note that draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state does not even reference draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang. >From my perspective we should have one single data model for IOAM configuration - and that is the YANG module defined in draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang. Let's make sure that this model covers all the information required to properly manage IOAM. Then draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state would be solely focused on defining how that YANG module (from draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang) would be rendered into e.g., ICMP as a carrier protocol. * Security: Revision -02 does not seem to update the security section. IMHO, section 6 on security considerations should be enhanced to clearly articulate that we're dealing with very sensitive information. Consider loaning from e.g., https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6241#section-9. As part of the discussion, it would be good to see an explanation where you'd expect draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state to be used. Given the discussion in the Introduction section, you seem to assume an environment that does not have a central network management station / controller in place. Or in other terms, you seem to target a deployment, which isn't a limited domain per RFC 8799. In that case, I would expect that we have normative language that requires the use of strong authentication and encryption between the nodes (i.e., MUST use ICMP with AH and ESP..). In addition to the above, I struggle to understand the "Operational Guide" in section 4: Could you shed a bit more light on how you expect things to work - and what a target deployment environment would look like? It seems that you assume that you don't know the network nor the destination addresses in your network: Do you expect that you would do regular "ICMP echo sweeps" in your network? Do you expect that, while doing the expanding ring search, an ICMP time exceeded message would also carry the "IOAM Capabilities Response Container Header", so that the capabilities container would not only be carried in the echo reply message but also in the time exceeded message? Thanks, Frank (BTW - Note that due to the upcoming holiday season, replies might be delayed). > -----Original Message----- > From: ippm On Behalf Of xiao.min2@zte.com.cn > Sent: Friday, 10 December 2021 08:01 > To: ippm@ietf.org > Subject: [ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state > > Hi IPPM WG, > > The -02 version of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state has been posted. > There are mainly two changes, one is on IOAM Tracing Capabilities Objects to > make them applicable to ICMPv6 extensions, another one is on IOAM Proof-of- > Transit Capabilities Object to make it aligned with the updated IOAM-Data > document. > Also note that I've had an offline discussion with wg chairs and Frank Brockners, > my conclusion is that Frank's concern raised at IETF 112 has been addressed. If > that's not the case, please speak up. > With that said, I think this draft is ready for WGLC. > > Best Regards, > Xiao Min > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From nobody Fri Dec 17 01:45:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69BF53A19BC for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 01:45:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.596 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.596 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) 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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello IPPM, This email starts a Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-op= tions. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options-06 Please provide feedback by replying to this email with your reviews and if = you think this document is ready to progress, by Friday, January 14. Best Regards, Marcus & Tommy --_000_AM0PR07MB41315DF88FF077CC72F474A6E2789AM0PR07MB4131eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello IPPM,

This email starts a Working Group Last Call on draft= -ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options.

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipp= m-ioam-ipv6-options/

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/dr= aft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options-06

 

Please provide feedback by replying to this email wi= th your reviews and if you think this document is ready to progress, by Friday, January 14.

 

Best Regards,

Marcus & Tommy

--_000_AM0PR07MB41315DF88FF077CC72F474A6E2789AM0PR07MB4131eurp_-- From nobody Fri Dec 17 13:37:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27D0B3A08AD; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 13:37:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nqYFhekWYqoz; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 13:37:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x336.google.com (mail-ot1-x336.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::336]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7362B3A08A9; 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Fri, 17 Dec 2021 13:37:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Erik Kline Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 13:37:23 -0800 Message-ID: To: IPv6 List Cc: "ippm@ietf.org" , Marcus Ihlar Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 21:37:42 -0000 +6MAN WG, just as an FYI On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 7:39 AM Marcus Ihlar wrote: > > Hello IPPM, > > This email starts a Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options. > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options/ > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options-06 > > > > Please provide feedback by replying to this email with your reviews and if you think this document is ready to progress, by Friday, January 14. > > > > Best Regards, > > Marcus & Tommy > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From nobody Fri Dec 17 15:51:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89AF13A0CAB; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi authors and ippm-chairs, Thanks for writing this-up! I took one pass through, and have the following comments during Adoption ca= ll for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness: TL;DR: Many previously undefined terms were used here, and a more direct descripti= on using the term "saturation" seems possible, IMO. IPPM has used a templat= e for metric drafts, and use of the hierarchy of singleton, sample, and sta= tistic metrics from RFC 2330 will help with clarity/answer many of my quest= ions. regards (I'm off-line for a while now, so enjoy the holidays), Al >From the Abstract: This document specifies the "RPM Test" for measuring responsiveness. It uses common protocols and mechanisms to measure user experience especially when the network is fully loaded ("responsiveness under working conditions".) The measurement is expressed as "Round-trips Per Minute" (RPM) and should be included with throughput (up and down) and idle latency as critical indicators of network quality. "fully loaded" and "working conditions" aren't necessarily the same, to me.= I'll be looking for better definitions. 3. Goals The algorithm described here defines an RPM Test that serves as a good proxy for user experience. This means: 1. Today's Internet traffic primarily uses HTTP/2 over TLS. Thus, the algorithm should use that protocol. As a side note: other types of traffic are gaining in popularity (HTTP/3) and/or are already being used widely (RTP). There are many measurement stability challenges when TCP is involved, see s= ection 4 of RFC8337: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8337#section= -4 RFC8337 intentionally broke the TCP control loop to make measurements in th= e face of these challenges. 4.1. Working Conditions For the purpose of this methodology, typical "working conditions" represent a state of the network in which the bottleneck node is experiencing ingress and egress flows similar to those created by humans in the typical day-to-day pattern. While a single HTTP transaction might briefly put a network into working conditions, making reliable measurements requires maintaining the state over sufficient time. The algorithm must also detect when the network is in a persistent working condition, also called "saturation". Desired properties of "working condition": o Should not waste traffic, since the person may be paying for it o Should finish within a short time to avoid impacting other people on the same network, to avoid varying network conditions, and not try the person's patience. These seem like reasonable goals for the traffic that loads the network. New terms needing definition were introduced: "persistent working condition =3D saturation", which is different from "ingress and egress flows similar to those created by humans in the typical= day-to-day pattern" Later in 4.1.1, terms like "saturate a path" and "fill the pipe" appear, a= nd The goal of the RPM Test is to keep the network as busy as possible in a sustained and persistent way. It uses multiple TCP connections and gradually adds more TCP flows until saturation is reached. The terms "busy as possible", and "typical day-to-day pattern", or "saturation" and "working conditions" indicate different load levels to me. @@@@ Suggestion: I think it would help to simplify the terminology in this = draft. You intend to measure a saturated path, so just say that. No "typica= l", no "working conditions", etc., in these early sections. The sentence beginning "The goal..." should really appear in Section 3. Goa= ls Also, you have defined a measurement method in the sentence, "It uses..." a= bove. This method of adding connections has been observed in other measurem= ent systems, but it isn't typical of user traffic, especially when each con= nection has an ~infinite amount of data to send during the test. 4.1.2. Parallel vs Sequential Uplink and Downlink ... To measure responsiveness under working conditions, the algorithm must saturate both directions. Bi-directional saturation is really atypical of usage. I don't think the be= nefit of "more data" pays off. ... However, a number of caveats come with measuring in parallel: o Half-duplex links may not permit simultaneous uplink and downlink traffic. This means the test might not saturate both directions at once. o Debuggability of the results becomes harder: During parallel measurement it is impossible to differentiate whether the observed latency happens in the uplink or the downlink direction. o Consequently, the test should have an option for sequential testing. @@@@ Suggestion: IMO, tests/results with Downlink saturation OR Uplink satu= ration would be more straightforward, and can be understood by users (espec= ially those who have tested in the past). Avoid the pitfalls and make Seque= ntial testing the preferred option. 4.1.3. Reaching saturation The RPM Test gradually increases the number of TCP connections and measures "goodput" - the sum of actual data transferred across all connections in a unit of time. When the goodput stops increasing, it means that saturation has been reached. ... Filling buffers at the bottleneck depends on the congestion control deployed on the sender side. Congestion control algorithms like BBR may reach high throughput without causing queueing because the bandwidth detection portion of BBR effectively seeks the bottleneck capacity. RPM Test clients and servers should use loss-based congestion controls like Cubic to fill queues reliably. With the evolution of Congestion control algorithms seeking to avoid fillin= g buffers, does it make sense to require a full buffer at the bottleneck to= achieve saturation? In fact, the definition above, "When the goodput stops increasing,..." does= not require full buffers; it requires maximizing a delivery rate measureme= nt instead. In 4.1.4, the final steps of the algorithm were not clear to me: * Else, network reached saturation for the current flow count. @@@@ This wording implies it to be the final step, but there are further co= nditions to test. Maybe this step is "Else, Candidate for stable saturation"? + If new flows added and for 4 seconds the moving average throughput did not change: network reached stable saturation @@@@ Maybe: + If the 4 second moving average of "instantaneous aggregate good= put" with no new flows added did not change (defined as: moving average =3D "previous" moving average +/- 5= %), then the network reached stable saturation ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------- + Else, add four more flows @@@ ??? and return to start? Finally, in 4.1.4, the Note explains: Note: It is tempting to envision an initial base RTT measurement and adjust the intervals as a function of that RTT. However, experiments have shown that this makes the saturation detection extremely unstable in low RTT environments. In the situation where the "unloaded" RTT is in the single-digit millisecond range, yet the network's RTT increases under load to more than a hundred milliseconds, the intervals become much too low to accurately drive the algorithm. Well, TCP senders/control-loops are involved here, and likely play a role in behavior categorized as "difficult to measure". By the time we get to 4.2. Measuring Responsiveness Once the network is in a consistent working conditions, the RPM Test must "probe" the network multiple times to measure its responsiveness. Each RPM Test probe measures: You previously started at least four TCP connections with infinitely large = files. The "create connection" RPM probes establish additional connections, DNS, T= CP, etc. Is each new connection an RPM probe? or is the set of connection tests a si= ngle probe? (later we learn it is the set of What if one of the set of connections fails/times-out? I take it that the "load-bearing" connections are driving the path to satur= ation. Maybe "load-generating connections" is more clear? 4.2.1. Aggregating the Measurements The algorithm produces sets of 5 times for each probe, namely: DNS handshake, TCP handshake, TLS handshake, HTTP/2 request/response on separate (idle) connections, HTTP/2 request/response on load bearing connections. This fine-grained data is useful, but not necessary for creating a useful metric. @@@@ So, only ONE of the load-generating connections runs the 1-byte GET ? = (it says connections, and there are at least 4) The various handshakes res= ult in 4 RT measurements. But, do you mean *5 repeated measurement sets*? Each set with: DNS HS, TCP HS, TLS HS, HTTP/2 idle GET, and the potentially much longer GE= T on the load generating connections. To create a single "Responsiveness" (e.g., RPM) number, this first iteration of the algorithm gives an equal weight to each of these values. That is, it sums the five time values for each probe, and divides by the total number of probes to compute an average probe duration. The reciprocal of this, normalized to 60 seconds, gives the Round-trips Per Minute (RPM). @@@@ I'm missing a step, I think: Are the "time values for each probe" the sum of handshake or response times= for DNS HS, TCP HS, TLS HS, HTTP/2 idle GET and load generating connections? The processing doesn't seem to include this preliminary calculation to prod= uce "five time values". In Section 5, "no new protocol is defined", but The client begins the responsiveness measurement by querying for the JSON configuration. This supplies the URLs for creating the load bearing connections in the upstream and downstream direction as well as the small object for the latency measurements. The client needs to know how the server response will be organized, down to= key: value, right? Some client and server agreements needed... From: ippm On Behalf Of Marcus Ihlar Sent: Monday, December 6, 2021 10:53 AM To: ippm@ietf.org Subject: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness Hi IPPM, This email starts an adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness, "= Responsiveness under Working Conditions". This document specifies the "RPM = Test" for measuring user experience when the network is fully loaded. The i= ntended status of the document is Experimental. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-01<= https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaa= sch-ippm-responsiveness-01__;!!BhdT!zI6d5je1i8cafA6NXByD5tvxHFKKPMjYgtM6t2a= LUHFPsyPz-XwPFq67PfWg$> This adoption call will last until Monday, December 20. Please review the d= ocument, and reply to this email thread to indicate if you think IPPM shoul= d adopt this document. BR, Marcus --_000_CH0PR02MB79802EEBC038D7136449D06FD3789CH0PR02MB7980namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi authors and ippm-chairs,

 

Thanks for writing this-up= !

 

I took one pass through, a= nd have the following comments during Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsivenes= s:

 

TL;DR:

Many previously undefined = terms were used here, and a more direct description using the term “s= aturation” seems possible, IMO. IPPM has used a template for metric drafts, and use of the hierarchy of singleton, sample, and statistic metri= cs from RFC 2330 will help with clarity/answer many of my questions.

 

regards (I’m off-lin= e for a while now, so enjoy the holidays),

Al

 

From the Abstract:

 

   This document specifies the "RPM Test" for measuring respo= nsiveness.

   It uses common protocols and mechanisms to measure user experience

   especially when the network is fully loaded ("responsiveness= under

   working conditions".)  The measurement is expressed as "Round-trips<= /p>

   Per Minute" (RPM) and should be included with throughput (up an= d

   down) and idle latency as critical indicators of network quality.

 

“fully loaded”= and “working conditions” aren’t necessarily the same, to= me.  I’ll be looking for better definitions.

  

3.  Goals
 
   The algorithm des=
cribed here defines an RPM Test that serves as a
   good proxy for us=
er experience.  This means:
 
   1.  Today's Internet traffic primarily uses HTT=
P/2 over TLS.  Thus,
       =
the algorithm should use that protocol.
 
       =
As a side note: other types of traffic are gaining in popularity
       =
(HTTP/3) and/or <???? UDP ???> are already being used w=
idely (RTP).

 

There are many measurement= stability challenges when TCP is involved, see section 4 of RFC8337:  = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8337#section-4

RFC8337 intentionally brok= e the TCP control loop to make measurements in the face of these challenges= .

  

4.1.  Working Conditions
 
   For the purpose o=
f this methodology, typical "working conditions"
   represent a state=
 of the network in which the bottleneck node is
   experiencing ingr=
ess and egress flows similar to those created by
   humans in the typ=
ical day-to-day pattern.
 
   While a single HT=
TP transaction might briefly put a network into
   working condition=
s, making reliable measurements requires maintaining
   the state over su=
fficient time.
 
   The algorithm mus=
t also detect when the network is in a persistent
   working condition=
, also called "saturation".
 
   Desired propertie=
s of "working condition":
 
   o  Should not waste traffic, since the person m=
ay be paying for it
 
   o  Should finish within a short time to avoid i=
mpacting other people
      on the same network, to avoid varying network conditions, and not
      try the person's patience.

 

These seem like reasonable= goals for the traffic that loads the network.

New terms needing definiti= on were introduced:

“persistent working = condition =3D saturation”,

which is different from

“ingress and egress = flows similar to those created by humans in the typical day-to-day pattern”

 

Later in 4.1.1, terms like= “saturate a path”  and “fill the pipe” appear, and

  

   The goal of th=
e RPM Test is to keep the network as busy as possible
   in a sustained an=
d persistent way.  It uses mul=
tiple TCP connections
   and gradually add=
s more TCP flows until saturation is reached.

 

The terms “busy as p= ossible”, and “typical day-to-day pattern”, or

“saturation” a= nd “working conditions” indicate different load levels to me.

 

@@@@ Suggestion: I think i= t would help to simplify the terminology in this draft. You intend to measu= re a saturated path, so just say that. No “typical”, no “working conditions”, etc., in these early sections.

 

The sentence beginning = 220;The goal...” should really appear in Section 3. Goals

 

Also, you have defined a m= easurement method in the sentence, “It uses...” above. This met= hod of adding connections has been observed in other measurement systems, but it isn’t typical of user traffic, especially when each connectio= n has an ~infinite amount of data to send during the test.

  

4.1.2.  Parallel vs Sequential Uplink and Downlink<=
/span>
 
...
   To measure respon=
siveness under working conditions, the algorithm
   must saturate bot=
h directions.
 
Bi-directional saturation is really atypical of usage. I don’t t=
hink the benefit of “more data” pays off.
 
...
 
   However, a number=
 of caveats come with measuring in parallel:
 
   o  Half-duplex links may not permit simultaneou=
s uplink and downlink
      traffic.  This means the test=
 might not saturate both directions
      at once.
 
   o  Debuggability of the results becomes harder:=
 During parallel
      measurement it is impossible to differentiate whether the observed
      latency happens in the uplink or the downlink direction.
 
   o  Consequently, the test should have an option=
 for sequential
      testing.

 

@@@@ Suggestion: IMO, test= s/results with Downlink saturation OR Uplink saturation would be more strai= ghtforward, and can be understood by users (especially those who have tested in the past). Avoid the pitfalls and make Sequential testi= ng the preferred option.

 

  

4.1.3.  Reaching saturation
 
   The RPM Test grad=
ually increases the number of TCP connections and
   measures "go=
odput" - the sum of actual data transferred across all

   connections in a =
unit of time.  When the goodpu=
t stops increasing, it


   means that satura=
tion has been reached.


...


 


   Filling buffers a=
t the bottleneck depends on the congestion control


   deployed on the s=
ender side.  Congestion contro=
l algorithms like BBR


   may reach high th=
roughput without causing queueing because the


   bandwidth detecti=
on portion of BBR effectively seeks the bottleneck


   capacity.


 


   RPM Test clients =
and servers should use loss-based congestion


   controls like Cub=
ic to fill queues reliably.


 


With the evolution of Congestion control algorithms seeking to avoid f=
illing buffers, does it make sense to require a full buffer at the bottlene=
ck to achieve saturation?


In fact, the definition above, “When the goodput stops increasin=
g,...” does not require full buffers; it requires maximizing a delive=
ry rate measurement instead.


 


 


In 4.1.4, the final steps of the algorithm were not clear to me:<=
/o:p>


 


      *  Else, network reached satu=
ration for the current flow count.


@@@@ This wording implies it to be the final step, but there are furth=
er conditions to test.


     Maybe=
 this step is “Else, Candidate for stable saturation”?


 


      &=
nbsp;  +  If new f=
lows added and for 4 seconds the moving average


      &=
nbsp;     throughput did not change: network rea=
ched stable saturation


@@@@ Maybe: 


     =
    +  If the 4 second moving average of &quo=
t;instantaneous aggregate goodput" with no new 


      &=
nbsp;     flows added did not change <=
/o:p>


      &=
nbsp;     (defined as: moving average =3D &=
quot;previous" moving average +/- 5%),


      &=
nbsp;     then the network reached stable satura=
tion


----------------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------------------


 


      &=
nbsp;  +  Else, ad=
d four more flows


@@@ ??? and return to start?


 

 

Finally, in 4.1.4, the Not=
e explains:


 

   Note: It is tempt=
ing to envision an initial base RTT measurement and


   adjust the interv=
als as a function of that RTT.  However, experiments


   have shown that t=
his makes the saturation detection extremely


   unstable in low R=
TT environments.  In the situa=
tion where the


   "unloaded&qu=
ot; RTT is in the single-digit millisecond range, yet the


   network's RTT inc=
reases under load to more than a hundred


   milliseconds, the=
 intervals become much too low to accurately drive


   the algorithm.


 

Well, TCP senders/control-=
loops are involved here, and likely play a



role in behavior categoriz=
ed as “difficult to measure”.


 

By the time we get to



 


4.2.  Measuring Responsiveness

 


   Once the network =
is in a consistent working conditions, the RPM Test


   must "probe&=
quot; the network multiple times to measure its


   responsiveness.


 


   Each RPM Test pro=
be measures:


 

You previously started at =
least four TCP connections with infinitely large files.

The “create connecti=
on” RPM probes establish additional connections, DNS, TCP, etc.<=
/o:p>


Is each new connection an =
RPM probe? or is the set of connection tests a single probe?


(later we learn it is the =
set of



What if one of the set of =
connections fails/times-out?


 

I take it that the “=
load-bearing” connections are driving the path to saturation.


Maybe “load-generati=
ng connections” is more clear?


 

4.2.1.  Aggregating the Measurements


 


   The algorithm pro=
duces sets of 5 times for each probe, namely: DNS


   handshake, TCP ha=
ndshake, TLS handshake, HTTP/2 request/response on


   separate (idle) c=
onnections, HTTP/2 request/response on load bearing


   connections.  This fine-grained data is useful,=
 but not necessary for


   creating a useful=
 metric.


 


@@@@ So, only ONE of the load-generating connections runs the 1-byte G=
ET ?  (it says connections, an=
d there are at least 4) The various handshakes result in 4 RT measurements.=



 


But, do you mean *5 repeated measurement sets*? Each set with:<=
o:p>


DNS HS, TCP HS, TLS HS, HTTP/2 idle GET, and the potentially much long=
er GET on the 


load generating connections.


 


   To create a singl=
e "Responsiveness" (e.g., RPM) number, this first

   iteration of the =
algorithm gives an equal weight to each of these


   values.  That is, it sums the five time values =
for each probe, and


   divides by the to=
tal number of probes to compute an average probe


   duration.  The reciprocal of this, normalized t=
o 60 seconds, gives


   the Round-trips P=
er Minute (RPM).


 


@@@@ I’m missing a step, I think:


Are the “time values for each probe” the sum of handshake =
or response times for


DNS HS, TCP HS, TLS HS, HTTP/2 idle GET and load generating connection=
s?


The processing doesn’t seem to include this preliminary calculat=
ion to produce 


“five time values”. =
 


 

 

In Section 5, “no ne=
w protocol is defined”, but



 

   The client begins=
 the responsiveness measurement by querying for the


   JSON configuratio=
n.  This supplies the URLs for=
 creating the load


   bearing connectio=
ns in the upstream and downstream direction as well


   as the small obje=
ct for the latency measurements.


 

The client needs to know h=
ow the server response will be organized, down to key: value, right?


Some client and server agr=
eements needed...


 

 







From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org>
On Behalf Of Marcus Ihlar

Sent: Monday, December 6, 2021 10:53 AM

To: ippm@ietf.org

Subject: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness<=
o:p>






 


Hi IPPM=
,


&n=
bsp;


This em=
ail starts an adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness, "Re=
sponsiveness under Working Conditions”. This document specifies the &=
#8220;RPM Test” for measuring user experience when the
 network is fully loaded. The intended status of the document is Experiment=
al.   


&n=
bsp;


https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-re=
sponsiveness/


https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpa=
asch-ippm-responsiveness-01


&n=
bsp;


This ad=
option call will last until
Monday, December 20. Please review the document, and reply to this e=
mail thread to indicate if you think IPPM should adopt this document.<=
/o:p>


&n=
bsp;


BR,


Marcus =



 
--_000_CH0PR02MB79802EEBC038D7136449D06FD3789CH0PR02MB7980namp_-- From nobody Sun Dec 19 18:02:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 869FC3A0AEF for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 18:02:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CTE_8BIT_MISMATCH=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EyO941N1B-b6 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 18:02:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxhk.zte.com.cn (mxhk.zte.com.cn [63.216.63.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0C873A0AF0 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 18:02:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxct.zte.com.cn (unknown [192.168.251.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mxhk.zte.com.cn (FangMail) with ESMTPS id 4JHNBH2LLGz7jYM6 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 2021 10:01:59 +0800 (CST) Received: from mse-fl2.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.14.239]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mxct.zte.com.cn (FangMail) with ESMTPS id 4JHN9h2p4Zz7qpbL; Mon, 20 Dec 2021 10:01:28 +0800 (CST) Received: from njxapp01.zte.com.cn ([10.41.132.200]) by mse-fl2.zte.com.cn with SMTP id 1BK219ue087743; Mon, 20 Dec 2021 10:01:09 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from xiao.min2@zte.com.cn) Received: from mapi (njxapp01[null]) by mapi (Zmail) with MAPI id mid201; Mon, 20 Dec 2021 10:01:08 +0800 (CST) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2021 10:01:08 +0800 (CST) X-Zmail-TransId: 2af961bfe3e41b7e07df X-Mailer: Zmail v1.0 Message-ID: <202112201001087601811@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: References: 202112101500302348450@zte.com.cn, 202112171028356091854@zte.com.cn, CY4PR11MB1672DC052465BFE82C401635DA789@CY4PR11MB1672.namprd11.prod.outlook.com Mime-Version: 1.0 From: To: Cc: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-MAIL: mse-fl2.zte.com.cn 1BK219ue087743 X-Fangmail-Gw-Spam-Type: 0 X-FangMail-Miltered: at cgslv5.04-192.168.250.137.novalocal with ID 61BFE417.000 by FangMail milter! X-FangMail-Envelope: 1639965719/4JHNBH2LLGz7jYM6/61BFE417.000/192.168.251.13/[192.168.251.13]/mxct.zte.com.cn/ X-Fangmail-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-Fangmail-MID-QID: 61BFE417.000/4JHNBH2LLGz7jYM6 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] =?utf-8?q?Progressing=C2=A0draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-stat?= =?utf-8?q?e?= X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2021 02:02:07 -0000 Hi Frank, Thank you for the quick reply. I believe you've provided your answer to my question implicitly, however what I requested is a clear conclusion, on both the mailing list and the draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-deployment. If I understand you correctly this time, you meant that the IOAM deployment must include a centralized controller or network manager or similar, then I have a hard time trying to understand why four types of IOAM are needed in section 4 of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-deployment (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-deployment#section-4). IMHO only one type of IOAM is necessary and enough, that's Direct Export IOAM described in section 4.4, would you please explain elaborately? Best Regards, Xiao Min ------------------原始邮件------------------ 发件人：FrankBrockners(fbrockne) 收件人：肖敏10093570; 抄送人：ippm@ietf.org;tpauly@apple.com; 日 期 ：2021年12月17日 17:47 主 题 ：RE: Re:[ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state Hi Xiao Min, per https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-17#section-4, IOAM is focused on "limited domains" as defined in [RFC8799], which is per RFC 8799 the same as what is also referred to as a "controlled environment". Personally I understand "Controlled environment" as an environment where an operator does have control over the nodes in the network and their configuration, i.e., the operator has control over his nodes, knows what network elements he is dealing with and what the config of the nodes is. How this control is implemented - whether there is one or several "controllers" or "network managers" or similar - is an implementation detail IMHO. Cheers, Frank > -----Original Message----- > From: xiao.min2@zte.com.cn > Sent: Friday, 17 December 2021 03:29 > To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > Cc: ippm@ietf.org; tpauly@apple.com > Subject: Re:[ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state > > Hi Frank, > > Thanks for your thorough review and thoughtful comments. > I apologize if I misinterpreted your mind. > Considering that your holiday season is coming, before digging into technical > details, I suggest that we discuss the IOAM deployment environment first. > As you may have noticed while reading through draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf- > state-02, in the introduction section it says "A centralized controller which owns > the enabled IOAM capabilities of each IOAM device could be used in some IOAM > deployments. The IOAM encapsulating node can discover the enabled IOAM > capabilities infomation from the centralized controller, using, for example, > NETCONF/YANG, PCEP, or BGP. In the IOAM deployment scenario where there > is no centralized controller, NETCONF/YANG or IGP may be used by the IOAM > encapsulating node to discover these IOAM capabilities information." > I know you're the primary author of both IOAM-Data and IOAM-Deployment > documents, so I have a fundamental question to you: Is the above statement > correct or not? > More specifically, if you can confirm that "the IOAM deployment scenario where > there is no centralized controller" doesn't exist at all, on both the mailing list and > the IOAM-Deployment document, then I suggest IPPM WG to abandon draft- > ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state, that would save the energy of the whole wg > including you and me. > > Best Regards, > Xiao Min > ------------------原始邮件------------------ > 发件人：FrankBrockners(fbrockne) > 收件人：肖敏10093570;ippm@ietf.org; > 抄送人：Tommy Pauly; > 日 期 ：2021年12月16日 20:56 > 主 题 ：RE: [ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state Hi Xiao Min, > Thanks for posting draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state-02. I read through the > updated version and looked at the diff to the 01 version > (https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state- > 01&url2=draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state-02). Different from what you state > below, I don't see any of my comments reflected. > The two main points I mentioned in the last WG meeting were about (a) > alignment with draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang and (b) enhancements to the security > section, reflecting that the protocol you are defining is a network management > protocol, and needs to be secured as such. > More specifically: > * Alignment with draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang: > The IPPM WG is in the process of defining a YANG module for IOAM: draft-ietf- > ippm-ioam-yang. We should have a single, comprehensive model for config > information for IOAM. That model can then be rendered into different > transports (be it JSON, XML, or yet another format - to then be carried over a > e.g. ICMP in your case). Right now draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state heads down > a path of defining a new set of management objects - many are similar to what > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang already defines, some they are less comprehensive, > some hint at additional information that draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang does not > cover yet: E.g., you define a "Pre-allocated Tracing Capabilities Object" where > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang has a "Preallocated Tracing Profile" defined. You > define ingress interface fields, which is information, which is more > comprehensively defined by the ioam-filter grouping. You define specific fields > to describe the timestamp format used by a node, which is information that > should be described as part of the ioam-info container - and which is currently > missing in draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang; point well taken :-). It is interesting to > note that draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state does not even reference draft-ietf- > ippm-ioam-yang. > From my perspective we should have one single data model for IOAM > configuration - and that is the YANG module defined in draft-ietf-ippm-ioam- > yang. Let's make sure that this model covers all the information required to > properly manage IOAM. Then draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state would be solely > focused on defining how that YANG module (from draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang) > would be rendered into e.g., ICMP as a carrier protocol. > * Security: Revision -02 does not seem to update the security section. IMHO, > section 6 on security considerations should be enhanced to clearly articulate > that we're dealing with very sensitive information. Consider loaning from e.g., > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6241#section-9. As part of the > discussion, it would be good to see an explanation where you'd expect draft- > ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state to be used. Given the discussion in the Introduction > section, you seem to assume an environment that does not have a central > network management station / controller in place. Or in other terms, you seem > to target a deployment, which isn't a limited domain per RFC 8799. In that case, > I would expect that we have normative language that requires the use of strong > authentication and encryption between the nodes (i.e., MUST use ICMP with AH > and ESP..). > In addition to the above, I struggle to understand the "Operational Guide" in > section 4: Could you shed a bit more light on how you expect things to work - > and what a target deployment environment would look like? It seems that you > assume that you don't know the network nor the destination addresses in your > network: Do you expect that you would do regular "ICMP echo sweeps" in your > network? Do you expect that, while doing the expanding ring search, an ICMP > time exceeded message would also carry the "IOAM Capabilities Response > Container Header", so that the capabilities container would not only be carried > in the echo reply message but also in the time exceeded message? > Thanks, Frank > (BTW - Note that due to the upcoming holiday season, replies might be delayed). > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ippm On Behalf Of xiao.min2@zte.com.cn > > Sent: Friday, 10 December 2021 08:01 > > To: ippm@ietf.org > > Subject: [ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state > > > > Hi IPPM WG, > > > > The -02 version of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state has been posted. > > There are mainly two changes, one is on IOAM Tracing Capabilities > > Objects to make them applicable to ICMPv6 extensions, another one is > > on IOAM Proof-of- Transit Capabilities Object to make it aligned with > > the updated IOAM-Data document. > > Also note that I've had an offline discussion with wg chairs and Frank > > Brockners, my conclusion is that Frank's concern raised at IETF 112 > > has been addressed. If that's not the case, please speak up. > > With that said, I think this draft is ready for WGLC. > > > > Best Regards, > > Xiao Min > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ippm mailing list > > ippm@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From nobody Sun Dec 19 19:39:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2781F3A0D35 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 19:39:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -12.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, GB_SUMOF=5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p-TyRoABqaCT for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 19:39:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42a.google.com (mail-wr1-x42a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 993C13A0D32 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 19:39:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id e5so17226914wrc.5 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 19:39:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=kF3+1rhBTqKL0XMHu59zH23fYMCshB+BOvF2SNjV2eU=; b=saRkXnV7mFdqB4QoEISj66CArzTc1MyWfE7shwBSDLE4v7Kg1d7DWKLmASncCBgZPJ a7drm9fNIEplZpUw/1qmhiaSdy1OBjyVmZ1T7vHrSlrj8h2BLIcHpBOrWk6tXScPNI/F g6z8hmcttCCjNwFOCasBDiLdHTi3XXcxwqbV/4LpJ0k+FehgEKX9Q68Fy183lKsoFRzu otctmosUs3Si+GqMU1ruI94Aoa3L8rdA3BULf3I/7KgX3iji3B7asAW+1JGX5ePTq2sb 4NIAb56ueJCJyB5Tn3YdgAds2g8MhPjF61YHZlQFQFXJlYzzHj9IbMhRBwHonn1ybEFS djgw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=kF3+1rhBTqKL0XMHu59zH23fYMCshB+BOvF2SNjV2eU=; b=0af1PjIDdDQUCDW9qJtkYzCbkto563sYiSStytCmCPsXYzeCS6wCPnY6LcHgr51KXp nYcB+9huaUxbyQLXviFlG1tUzLXpgkkLHXQyqUI8cESAoTSO7F7WD7/Exx7kWs2EfXfn 3GViRkCjgdvj53n3PajGmLPfc0Krcw/ekxn0OK2Up9/HOp6+ZwcUGa0SyOGi4bfEqE9y X5Wj4jnD+XUfO9WSL6l9u2DFsYvjDrqyyrNBALrl/FGFtnKL/cE0t2X/U/n9lX8uGMwt FBbz21s3bjz3lu1NpCh5WN0VasfDMFfH1t/xO7LTKK/l1gAjfUOrBJmVTbVgTAc+IxBK GQXw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533sV+ghbV/xWQxMdnYm3Sb7nTNIsp6kesxo80OSxdk1WpTVW3eQ bn8VDkXEagTn0v25sLrnIDV51vcE+GMoLDYYlrX2Ig== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJznOhLUxgjG5SYMemaIm3WvLUHfV0gxCv3ZftXziXJCdCyuo+Dw51hpyCNZXOZUIRlJ2v5siWiK3WPHRCQOf1o= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4207:: with SMTP id n7mr10756677wrq.708.1639971537442; Sun, 19 Dec 2021 19:38:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Matt Mathis Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2021 19:38:45 -0800 Message-ID: To: "MORTON JR., AL" Cc: "ippm@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000eedbfe05d38ba056" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2021 03:39:06 -0000 --000000000000eedbfe05d38ba056 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I support this draft, and I have even offered to be a co-author. Thank you Al. for the extensive comments. I only have a moment for some high level responses: In some sense this document is opposite of RFC8337. Responsiveness is about measuring the how well/early the bottleneck signals congestion to the transport without incurring excessive queueing. This not only depends on the loop behavior of the bottleneck and the measurement stream, it also depends on the loop behavior, population and RTT's of the cross traffic. I do not expect any of the theory to be mature enough to be able to do any of this as abstractly as IPPM does with most metrics. At this time I expect a responsiveness metric to require fingerprinting the hardware, OS and application software, and include a warning that results may be sensitive to the details of the implementation. WiFi is a poorly modeled half duplex shared broadcast channel, that is a critical (dominant?) part of the responsiveness for typical Internet users. Bidirectional traffic matters a lot, but I fear the scope might be too broad. Thanks, --MM-- The best way to predict the future is to create it. - Alan Kay We must not tolerate intolerance; however our response must be carefully measured: too strong would be hypocritical and risks spiraling out of control; too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval. On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 3:51 PM MORTON JR., AL wrote: > Hi authors and ippm-chairs, > > > > Thanks for writing this-up! > > > > I took one pass through, and have the following comments during Adoption > call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness: > > > > TL;DR: > > Many previously undefined terms were used here, and a more direct > description using the term =E2=80=9Csaturation=E2=80=9D seems possible, I= MO. IPPM has used > a template for metric drafts, and use of the hierarchy of singleton, > sample, and statistic metrics from RFC 2330 will help with clarity/answer > many of my questions. > > > > regards (I=E2=80=99m off-line for a while now, so enjoy the holidays), > > Al > > > > From the Abstract: > > > > This document specifies the "RPM Test" for measuring responsiveness. > > It uses common protocols and mechanisms to measure user experience > > *especially when the network is fully loaded ("responsiveness under* > > * working conditions"*.) The measurement is expressed as "Round-trips > > Per Minute" (RPM) and should be included with throughput (up and > > down) and idle latency as critical indicators of network quality. > > > > =E2=80=9Cfully loaded=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cworking conditions=E2=80=9D a= ren=E2=80=99t necessarily the same, to me. > I=E2=80=99ll be looking for better definitions. > > > > 3 . Goals > > > > The algorithm described here defines an RPM Test that serves as a > > good proxy for user experience. This means: > > > > 1. Today's Internet traffic primarily uses HTTP/2 over TLS. Thus, > > the algorithm should use that protocol. > > > > As a side note: other types of traffic are gaining in popularity > > (HTTP/3) and/or ** are already being used widely (RT= P). > > > > There are many measurement stability challenges when TCP is involved, see > section 4 of RFC8337: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8337#section-4 > > RFC8337 intentionally broke the TCP control loop to make measurements in > the face of these challenges. > > > > 4.1 . Working Conditions > > > > For the purpose of this methodology, typical "working conditions" > > represent a state of the network in which the bottleneck node is > > experiencing ingress and egress flows similar to those created by > > humans in the typical day-to-day pattern. > > > > While a single HTTP transaction might briefly put a network into > > working conditions, making reliable measurements requires maintaining > > the state over sufficient time. > > > > The algorithm must also detect when the network is in a persistent > > working condition, also called "saturation". > > > > Desired properties of "working condition": > > > > o Should not waste traffic, since the person may be paying for it > > > > o Should finish within a short time to avoid impacting other people > > on the same network, to avoid varying network conditions, and not > > try the person's patience. > > > > These seem like reasonable goals for the traffic that loads the network. > > New terms needing definition were introduced: > > =E2=80=9Cpersistent working condition =3D saturation=E2=80=9D, > > which is different from > > =E2=80=9Cingress and egress flows similar to those created by humans in t= he > *typical* day-to-day pattern=E2=80=9D > > > > Later in 4.1.1, terms like =E2=80=9Csaturate a path=E2=80=9D and =E2=80= =9Cfill the pipe=E2=80=9D appear, > and > > > > *The goal of the RPM Test is to keep the network as busy as possible* > > in a sustained and persistent way. It uses multiple TCP connections > > and gradually adds more TCP flows until saturation is reached. > > > > The terms =E2=80=9Cbusy as possible=E2=80=9D, and =E2=80=9Ctypical day-to= -day pattern=E2=80=9D, or > > =E2=80=9Csaturation=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cworking conditions=E2=80=9D ind= icate different load levels to me. > > > > @@@@ Suggestion: I think it would help to simplify the terminology in thi= s > draft. You intend to measure a saturated path, so just say that. No > =E2=80=9Ctypical=E2=80=9D, no =E2=80=9Cworking conditions=E2=80=9D, etc.,= in these early sections. > > > > The sentence beginning =E2=80=9CThe goal...=E2=80=9D should really appear= in Section 3. > Goals > > > > Also, you have defined a measurement method in the sentence, =E2=80=9CIt = uses...=E2=80=9D > above. This method of adding connections has been observed in other > measurement systems, but it isn=E2=80=99t typical of user traffic, especi= ally when > each connection has an ~infinite amount of data to send during the test. > > > > 4.1.2 . Parallel vs Sequential Uplink and Downlink > > > > ... > > To measure responsiveness under working conditions, the algorithm > > must saturate both directions. > > > > Bi-directional saturation is really atypical of usage. I don=E2=80=99t th= ink the benefit of =E2=80=9Cmore data=E2=80=9D pays off. > > > > ... > > > > However, a number of caveats come with measuring in parallel: > > > > o Half-duplex links may not permit simultaneous uplink and downlink > > traffic. This means the test might not saturate both directions > > at once. > > > > o Debuggability of the results becomes harder: During parallel > > measurement it is impossible to differentiate whether the observed > > latency happens in the uplink or the downlink direction. > > > > o Consequently, the test should have an option for sequential > > testing. > > > > @@@@ Suggestion: IMO, tests/results with Downlink saturation OR Uplink > saturation would be more straightforward, and can be understood by users > (especially those who have tested in the past). Avoid the pitfalls and ma= ke > Sequential testing the preferred option. > > > > > > 4.1.3 . Reaching saturation > > > > The RPM Test gradually increases the number of TCP connections and > > measures "goodput" - the sum of actual data transferred across all > > connections in a unit of time. When the goodput stops increasing, it > > means that saturation has been reached. > > ... > > > > Filling buffers at the bottleneck depends on the congestion control > > deployed on the sender side. Congestion control algorithms like BBR > > may reach high throughput without causing queueing because the > > bandwidth detection portion of BBR effectively seeks the bottleneck > > capacity. > > > > RPM Test clients and servers should use loss-based congestion > > controls like Cubic to fill queues reliably. > > > > With the evolution of Congestion control algorithms seeking to avoid fill= ing buffers, does it make sense to require a full buffer at the bottleneck = to achieve saturation? > > In fact, the definition above, =E2=80=9CWhen the goodput stops increasing= ,...=E2=80=9D does not require full buffers; it requires maximizing a deliv= ery rate measurement instead. > > > > > > In 4.1.4, the final steps of the algorithm were not clear to me: > > > > * Else, network reached saturation for the current flow count. > > @@@@ This wording implies it to be the final step, but there are further = conditions to test. > > Maybe this step is =E2=80=9CElse, Candidate for stable saturation=E2= =80=9D? > > > > + If new flows added and for 4 seconds the moving average > > throughput did not change: network reached stable saturation > > @@@@ Maybe: > > + If the 4 second moving average of "instantaneous aggregate go= odput" with no new > > flows added did not change > > (defined as: moving average =3D "previous" moving average +/-= 5%), > > then the network reached stable saturation > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------- > > > > + Else, add four more flows > > @@@ ??? and return to start? > > > > > > Finally, in 4.1.4, the Note explains: > > > > Note: It is tempting to envision an initial base RTT measurement and > > adjust the intervals as a function of that RTT. However, experiments > > have shown that this makes the saturation detection extremely > > unstable in low RTT environments. In the situation where the > > "unloaded" RTT is in the single-digit millisecond range, yet the > > network's RTT increases under load to more than a hundred > > milliseconds, the intervals become much too low to accurately drive > > the algorithm. > > > > Well, TCP senders/control-loops are involved here, and likely play a > > role in behavior categorized as =E2=80=9Cdifficult to measure=E2=80=9D. > > > > By the time we get to > > > > 4.2 . Measuring Responsiveness > > > > Once the network is in a consistent working conditions, the RPM Test > > must "probe" the network multiple times to measure its > > responsiveness. > > > > Each RPM Test probe measures: > > > > You previously started at least four TCP connections with infinitely larg= e > files. > > The =E2=80=9Ccreate connection=E2=80=9D RPM probes establish additional c= onnections, DNS, > TCP, etc. > > Is each new connection an RPM probe? or is the set of connection tests a > single probe? > > (later we learn it is the set of > > What if one of the set of connections fails/times-out? > > > > I take it that the =E2=80=9Cload-bearing=E2=80=9D connections are driving= the path to > saturation. > > Maybe =E2=80=9Cload-generating connections=E2=80=9D is more clear? > > > > 4.2.1 . Aggregating the Measurements > > > > The algorithm produces sets of 5 times for each probe, namely: DNS > > handshake, TCP handshake, TLS handshake, HTTP/2 request/response on > > separate (idle) connections, HTTP/2 request/response on load bearing > > connections. This fine-grained data is useful, but not necessary for > > creating a useful metric. > > > > @@@@ So, only ONE of the load-generating connections runs the 1-byte GET = ? (it says connections, and there are at least 4) The various handshakes r= esult in 4 RT measurements. > > > > But, do you mean **5 repeated measurement sets**? Each set with: > > DNS HS, TCP HS, TLS HS, HTTP/2 idle GET, and the potentially much longer = GET on the > > load generating connections. > > > > To create a single "Responsiveness" (e.g., RPM) number, this first > > iteration of the algorithm gives an equal weight to each of these > > values. That is, it sums the five time values for each probe, and > > divides by the total number of probes to compute an average probe > > duration. The reciprocal of this, normalized to 60 seconds, gives > > the Round-trips Per Minute (RPM). > > > > @@@@ I=E2=80=99m missing a step, I think: > > Are the =E2=80=9Ctime values for each probe=E2=80=9D the sum of handshake= or response times for > > DNS HS, TCP HS, TLS HS, HTTP/2 idle GET and load generating connections? > > The processing doesn=E2=80=99t seem to include this preliminary calculati= on to produce > > =E2=80=9Cfive time values=E2=80=9D. > > > > > > In Section 5, =E2=80=9Cno new protocol is defined=E2=80=9D, but > > > > The client begins the responsiveness measurement by querying for the > > JSON configuration. This supplies the URLs for creating the load > > bearing connections in the upstream and downstream direction as well > > as the small object for the latency measurements. > > > > The client needs to know how the server response will be organized, down > to key: value, right? > > Some client and server agreements needed... > > > > > > *From:* ippm *On Behalf Of *Marcus Ihlar > *Sent:* Monday, December 6, 2021 10:53 AM > *To:* ippm@ietf.org > *Subject:* [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness > > > > Hi IPPM, > > > > This email starts an adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness, > "Responsiveness under Working Conditions=E2=80=9D. This document specifie= s the =E2=80=9CRPM > Test=E2=80=9D for measuring user experience when the network is fully loa= ded. The > intended status of the document is Experimental. > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/ > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-0= 1 > > > > > This adoption call will last until *Monday, December 20*. Please review > the document, and reply to this email thread to indicate if you think IPP= M > should adopt this document. > > > > BR, > > Marcus > > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > --000000000000eedbfe05d38ba056 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I support this draft, and I have even offered to be a co-a= uthor.

Thank you=C2=A0 Al. for the extensive comments.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0I only have a moment=C2=A0for some high level=C2=A0responses:<= /div>

In some sense this document=C2=A0 is opposite=C2= =A0of RFC8337.=C2=A0 Responsiveness is about measuring=C2=A0the how well/ea= rly the bottleneck signals congestion to the transport without incurring=C2= =A0excessive queueing.=C2=A0 =C2=A0This not only depends on the loop behavi= or of the bottleneck and the measurement=C2=A0stream, it also depends on th= e loop behavior, population and RTT's of the cross traffic.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0I do not expect any of the theory to be mature enough to be able to do a= ny of this as abstractly as IPPM does with most metrics.=C2=A0 =C2=A0At thi= s time I expect a responsiveness metric to require fingerprinting the hardw= are, OS and application software, and include a warning that results may be= sensitive=C2=A0to the details of the implementation.

<= div>WiFi is a poorly modeled half duplex shared broadcast channel, that is = a critical (dominant?) part of the responsiveness for typical Internet user= s.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Bidirectional traffic matters a lot, but I fear the s= cope might be too broad.

=
Thanks,
--MM--
The= best way to predict the future is to create it. =C2=A0- Alan Kay

We= must not tolerate intolerance;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0however our response must be carefully measured:=C2=A0
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 too strong would be hypocritical and= risks spiraling out of control;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 too weak risks being mistaken for tacit approval.


<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 3:51 PM MORTON= JR., AL <acmorton@att.com> w= rote:

= Hi authors and ippm-chairs,

= =C2=A0

= Thanks for writing this-up!

= =C2=A0

= I took one pass through, and have the following comments during Adoption ca= ll for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsi= veness:

= =C2=A0

= TL;DR:

= Many previously undefined terms were used here, and a more direct descripti= on using the term =E2=80=9Csaturation=E2=80=9D seems possible, IMO. IPPM ha= s used a template for metric drafts, and use of the hierarchy of singleton, sample, and statistic metri= cs from RFC 2330 will help with clarity/answer many of my questions.=

= =C2=A0

= regards (I=E2=80=99m off-line for a while now, so enjoy the holidays),

= Al

= =C2=A0

= >From the Abstract:

= =C2=A0

= =C2=A0=C2=A0 This document specifies the "RPM Test" for measuring respo= nsiveness.

= =C2=A0=C2=A0 It uses common protocols and mechanisms to measure user experience

= =C2=A0=C2=A0 especially when the network is fully loaded ("responsiveness= under

=C2=A0=C2=A0 working conditions".)=C2=A0 The measurement is expressed as "Round-trips

= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Per Minute" (RPM) and should be included with throughput (up an= d

= =C2=A0=C2=A0 down) and idle latency as critical indicators of network quality.=

= =C2=A0

= =E2=80=9Cfully loaded=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cworking conditions=E2=80=9D are= n=E2=80=99t necessarily the same, to me.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99ll be looking for better definitions.=

= =C2=A0

3.=C2=A0 Goals
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0 The algorithm described here defines an RPM =
Test that serves as a
=C2=A0=C2=A0 good proxy for user experience.=C2=A0 =
This means:
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0 1.=C2=A0 Today's Internet t=
raffic primarily uses HTTP/2 over TLS.=C2=A0 Thus,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the algorithm should=
 use that protocol.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 As a side note: othe=
r types of traffic are gaining in popularity
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (HTTP/3) and/or &=
lt;???? UDP ???> are already being used widely (RTP).<=
/pre>

=
=C2=A0


=
There are many measurement stability challenges when TCP is involved, see s=
ection 4 of RFC8337:=C2=A0
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8337#section-4



=
RFC8337 intentionally broke the TCP control loop to make measurements in th=
e face of these challenges.


=
=C2=A0


4.1.=C2=A0 Working Conditions=



=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 For the purpose of this methodology, typical=
 "working conditions"


=C2=A0=C2=A0 represent a state of the network in which th=
e bottleneck node is


=C2=A0=C2=A0 experiencing ingress and egress flows simila=
r to those created by


=C2=A0=C2=A0 humans in the typical day-to-day pattern.=



=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 While a single HTTP transaction might briefl=
y put a network into


=C2=A0=C2=A0 working conditions, making reliable measurem=
ents requires maintaining


=C2=A0=C2=A0 the state over sufficient time.


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 The algorithm must also detect when the netw=
ork is in a persistent


=C2=A0=C2=A0 working condition, also called "saturat=
ion".


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 Desired properties of "working conditio=
n":


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Should not waste traffi=
c, since the person may be paying for it


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Should finish within a =
short time to avoid impacting other people


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 on the same network, to av=
oid varying network conditions, and not


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 try the person's patie=
nce.


=
=C2=A0


=
These seem like reasonable goals for the traffic that loads the network.=



=
New terms needing definition were introduced:



=
=E2=80=9Cpersistent working condition =3D saturation=E2=80=9D,



=
which is different from



=
=E2=80=9Cingress and egress flows similar to those created by humans in the
typical day-to-day pattern=E2=80=9D


=
=C2=A0


=
Later in 4.1.1, terms like =E2=80=9Csaturate a path=E2=80=9D=C2=A0
and =E2=80=9Cfill the pipe=E2=80=9D appear, and=



=
=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 The goal of the RPM Test is to keep the n=
etwork as busy as possible


=C2=A0=C2=A0 in a sustained and persistent way.=C2=
=A0 It uses multiple TCP connections


=C2=A0=C2=A0 and gradually adds more TCP flows until satu=
ration is reached.


=
=C2=A0


=
The terms =E2=80=9Cbusy as possible=E2=80=9D, and =E2=80=9Ctypical day-to-d=
ay pattern=E2=80=9D, or



=
=E2=80=9Csaturation=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cworking conditions=E2=80=9D indic=
ate different load levels to me.


=
=C2=A0


=
@@@@ Suggestion: I think it would help to simplify the terminology in this =
draft. You intend to measure a saturated path, so just say that. No =E2=80=
=9Ctypical=E2=80=9D, no
 =E2=80=9Cworking conditions=E2=80=9D, etc., in these early sections. 


=
=C2=A0


=
The sentence beginning =E2=80=9CThe goal...=E2=80=9D should really appear i=
n Section 3. Goals



=
=C2=A0


=
Also, you have defined a measurement method in the sentence, =E2=80=9CIt us=
es...=E2=80=9D above. This method of adding connections has been observed i=
n other measurement systems,
 but it isn=E2=80=99t typical of user traffic, especially when each connect=
ion has an ~infinite amount of data to send during the test.



=
=C2=A0


4.1.2.=C2=A0 Parallel vs Sequential U=
plink and Downlink


=C2=A0


...


=C2=A0=C2=A0 To measure responsiveness under working cond=
itions, the algorithm


=C2=A0=C2=A0 must saturate both directions.=



=C2=A0


Bi-directional saturation is really atypical of usage. I don=E2=80=99t=
 think the benefit of =E2=80=9Cmore data=E2=80=9D pays off.

=C2=A0


...


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 However, a number of caveats come with measu=
ring in parallel:


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Half-duplex links may n=
ot permit simultaneous uplink and downlink


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 traffic.=C2=A0 This means the test might not saturate both directions

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 at once.

=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Debuggability of the re=
sults becomes harder: During parallel


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 measurement it is impossib=
le to differentiate whether the observed


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 latency happens in the upl=
ink or the downlink direction.


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Consequently, the test =
should have an option for sequential


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 testing.

=
=C2=A0


=
@@@@ Suggestion: IMO, tests/results with Downlink saturation OR Uplink satu=
ration would be more straightforward, and can be understood by users (espec=
ially those
 who have tested in the past). Avoid the pitfalls and make Sequential testi=
ng the preferred option.


=
=C2=A0


=
=C2=A0


4.1.3.=C2=A0 Reaching saturation


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 The RPM Test gradually increases the number =
of TCP connections and


=C2=A0=C2=A0 measures "goodput" - the sum of ac=
tual data transferred across all


=C2=A0=C2=A0 connections in a unit of time.=C2=A0 <=
/span>When the goodput stops increasing, it


=C2=A0=C2=A0 means that saturation has been reached.


...


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 Filling buffers at the bottleneck depends on=
 the congestion control


=C2=A0=C2=A0 deployed on the sender side.=C2=A0 Congestion control algorithms like BBR


=C2=A0=C2=A0 may reach high throughput without causing qu=
eueing because the


=C2=A0=C2=A0 bandwidth detection portion of BBR effective=
ly seeks the bottleneck


=C2=A0=C2=A0 capacity.


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 RPM Test clients and servers should use loss=
-based congestion


 =C2=A0=C2=A0controls like Cubic to fill queues reliably.=



=C2=A0


With the evolution of Congestion control algorithms seeking to avoid f=
illing buffers, does it make sense to require a full buffer at the bottlene=
ck to achieve saturation?


In fact, the definition above, =E2=80=9CWhen the goodput stops increas=
ing,...=E2=80=9D does not require full buffers; it requires maximizing a de=
livery rate measurement instead.


=C2=A0


=C2=A0


In 4.1.4, the final steps of the algorithm were not clear to me:


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Else,=
 network reached saturation for the current flow count.


@@@@ This wording implies it to be the final step, but there are furth=
er conditions to test.


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Maybe this step is =E2=80=9CElse=
, Candidate for stable saturation=E2=80=9D?


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +=
=C2=A0 If new flows added and for 4 seconds the moving average


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 throughput did not change: network reached stable saturation<=
/u>


@@@@ Maybe: 


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0+=C2=A0 If the 4 second moving average of "inst=
antaneous aggregate goodput" with no new 


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0flows added did not change 


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0(defined as: moving average =3D "previous" moving=
 average +/- 5%),


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 then the network reached stable saturation


----------------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------------------


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +=
=C2=A0 Else, add four more flows


@@@ ??? and return to start?


=
=C2=A0


=
=C2=A0


=
Finally, in 4.1.4, the Note explains:


=
=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 Note: It is tempting to envision an initial =
base RTT measurement and


=C2=A0=C2=A0 adjust the intervals as a function of that R=
TT.=C2=A0 However, experiments


=C2=A0=C2=A0 have shown that this makes the saturation de=
tection extremely


=C2=A0=C2=A0 unstable in low RTT environments.=C2=
=A0 In the situation where the


=C2=A0=C2=A0 "unloaded" RTT is in the single-di=
git millisecond range, yet the


=C2=A0=C2=A0 network's RTT increases under load to mo=
re than a hundred


=C2=A0=C2=A0 milliseconds, the intervals become much too =
low to accurately drive


=C2=A0=C2=A0 the algorithm.


=
=C2=A0


=
Well, TCP senders/control-loops are involved here, and likely play a



=
role in behavior categorized as =E2=80=9Cdifficult to measure=E2=80=9D.<=
/u>


=
=C2=A0


=
By the time we get to



=C2=A0


4.2.=C2=A0 Measuring Responsiveness


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 Once the network is in a consistent working =
conditions, the RPM Test


=C2=A0=C2=A0 must "probe" the network multiple =
times to measure its


=C2=A0=C2=A0 responsiveness.


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 Each RPM Test probe measures:<=
/pre>

=
=C2=A0


=
You previously started at least four TCP connections with infinitely large =
files.


=
The =E2=80=9Ccreate connection=E2=80=9D RPM probes establish additional con=
nections, DNS, TCP, etc.


=
Is each new connection an RPM probe? or is the set of connection tests a si=
ngle probe?


=
(later we learn it is the set of



=
What if one of the set of connections fails/times-out?=



=
=C2=A0


=
I take it that the =E2=80=9Cload-bearing=E2=80=9D connections are driving t=
he path to saturation.


=
Maybe =E2=80=9Cload-generating connections=E2=80=9D is more clear?


=
=C2=A0


4.2.1.=C2=A0 Aggregating the Measurem=
ents


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 The algorithm produces sets of 5 times for e=
ach probe, namely: DNS


=C2=A0=C2=A0 handshake, TCP handshake, TLS handshake, HTT=
P/2 request/response on


=C2=A0=C2=A0 separate (idle) connections, HTTP/2 request/=
response on load bearing


=C2=A0=C2=A0 connections.=C2=A0 This fine-gr=
ained data is useful, but not necessary for


=C2=A0=C2=A0 creating a useful metric.

=C2=A0


@@@@ So, only ONE of the load-generating connections runs the 1-byte G=
ET ?=C2=A0 (it says connections, and there are at least 4) The=
 various handshakes result in 4 RT measurements.


=C2=A0


But, do you mean *5 repeated measurement sets*? Each set with:<=
u>


DNS HS, TCP HS, TLS HS, HTTP/2 idle GET, and the potentially much long=
er GET on the 


load generating connections.


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 To create a single "Responsiveness"=
; (e.g., RPM) number, this first


=C2=A0=C2=A0 iteration of the algorithm gives an equal we=
ight to each of these


=C2=A0=C2=A0 values.=C2=A0 That is, it sums =
the five time values for each probe, and


=C2=A0=C2=A0 divides by the total number of probes to com=
pute an average probe


=C2=A0=C2=A0 duration.=C2=A0 The reciprocal =
of this, normalized to 60 seconds, gives


=C2=A0=C2=A0 the Round-trips Per Minute (RPM).<=
/u>


=C2=A0


@@@@ I=E2=80=99m missing a step, I think:


Are the =E2=80=9Ctime values for each probe=E2=80=9D the sum of handsh=
ake or response times for


DNS HS, TCP HS, TLS HS, HTTP/2 idle GET and load generating connection=
s?


The processing doesn=E2=80=99t seem to include this preliminary calcul=
ation to produce 


=E2=80=9Cfive time values=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 


=
=C2=A0


=
=C2=A0


=
In Section 5, =E2=80=9Cno new protocol is defined=E2=80=9D, but



=
=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0 The client begins the responsiveness measure=
ment by querying for the


=C2=A0=C2=A0 JSON configuration.=C2=A0 This =
supplies the URLs for creating the load


=C2=A0=C2=A0 bearing connections in the upstream and down=
stream direction as well


=C2=A0=C2=A0 as the small object for the latency measurem=
ents.


=
=C2=A0


=
The client needs to know how the server response will be organized, down to=
 key: value, right?


=
Some client and server agreements needed...


=
=C2=A0


=
=C2=A0








From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org&g=
t;
On Behalf Of Marcus Ihlar

Sent: Monday, December 6, 2021 10:53 AM

To: ippm@ietf.org=


Subject: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness<=
u>






=C2=A0


Hi IPPM,<=
u>


=
=C2=A0


This emai=
l starts an adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness, "Resp=
onsiveness under Working Conditions=E2=80=9D. This document specifies the =
=E2=80=9CRPM Test=E2=80=9D for measuring user experience when the
 network is fully loaded. The intended status of the document is Experiment=
al. =C2=A0=C2=A0


=
=C2=A0


https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra=
ft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/


https://datatracker.ietf.org/=
doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-01


=
=C2=A0


This adop=
tion call will last until
Monday, December 20. Please review the document, and reply to this e=
mail thread to indicate if you think IPPM should adopt this document.


=
=C2=A0


BR,


Marcus 


=C2=A0
_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ucmail.uc.edu X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BY5PR01MB5940.prod.exchangelabs.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b405eed4-a933-45bb-f849-08d9c3fb7076 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Dec 2021 20:58:13.9751 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f5222e6c-5fc6-48eb-8f03-73db18203b63 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: gGT5T3pTTZZaNXIXMktHjoT0I18YUjaFf/86bxZwcHs0AzCxOBzwIgdAoNWPYkxqco4crp3lv5QafdP9PEFlVQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SJ0PR01MB7448 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 08:08:33 -0800 Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2021 20:58:55 -0000 (Forgive the top posting) My name is Will Hawkins and I am a professor at the University of Cincinnat= i and former researcher at MeasurementLab who is working with the draft's a= uthors. I have independently implemented a client for this draft protocol (= https://github.com/hawkinsw/goresponsiveness). I am working closely with th= e draft's authors to refine the standard and I strongly support adopting th= is draft. I hope that this message is appropriate. Will ________________________________________ From: Christoph Paasch Sent: Monday, December 20, 2021 3:51 PM To: Hawkins III, William (hawkinwh) Subject: Fwd: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness Begin forwarded message: From: Marcus Ihlar > Subject: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness Date: December 6, 2021 at 7:52:58 AM PST To: "ippm@ietf.org" > List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group > Hi IPPM, This email starts an adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness, "= Responsiveness under Working Conditions=94. This document specifies the =93= RPM Test=94 for measuring user experience when the network is fully loaded.= The intended status of the document is Experimental. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-01<= https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatra= cker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-01&data=3D04= %7C01%7Chawkinwh%40ucmail.uc.edu%7Cce7eb2d69a9f47e012fc08d9c3fa77c0%7Cf5222= e6c5fc648eb8f0373db18203b63%7C1%7C0%7C637756302812695180%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbG= Zsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C= 3000&sdata=3D38XGB57Wii%2BKlS5bvvlFesWQqZoOOYgH0pqYIDmbSTQ%3D&reserved=3D0> This adoption call will last until Monday, December 20. Please review the d= ocument, and reply to this email thread to indicate if you think IPPM shoul= d adopt this document. BR, Marcus _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From nobody Tue Dec 21 18:42:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FB913A0922 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2021 18:42:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BSR-3zd8wekG for ; Tue, 21 Dec 2021 18:42:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher 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Dec 2021 10:42:08 +0800 From: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" , "xiao.min2@zte.com.cn" , "ippm@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?W2lwcG1dICBQcm9ncmVzc2luZ8KgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1pcHBtLWlvYW0tY29u?= =?utf-8?Q?f-state?= Thread-Index: AQHX8nwd6XKcbCQuZ0umkB2stYpoLqw907rA Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 02:42:07 +0000 Message-ID: <2d7b51fa857f478bafa84b81382e5363@huawei.com> References: <202112101500302348450@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.112.40.81] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] =?utf-8?q?Progressing=C2=A0draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-stat?= =?utf-8?q?e?= X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , 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FR2P281MB0611.DEUP281.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c04e7e30-ffe0-43c5-c142-08d9c5e432cf X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Dec 2021 07:16:54.4859 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bde4dffc-4b60-4cf6-8b04-a5eeb25f5c4f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 2ludKZTiiZLxYqeyMyGlHsGqGY6sIFtTjcnT3WgC/2XN7glTX26eMetN7DfgbC8lR8s4Ofu4S0nM7uCf+CutSRfljNbawR4KwAvspE3tzws= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: FR2P281MB0026 X-OriginatorOrg: telekom.de Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 07:17:27 -0000 Hi Marcus, Noting that some more work needs to be added, I support adoption. Some comments: - I'd appreciate if the draft was covering expectable operational scenarios= , namely * There may be no bottleneck buffer - the test/metric needs to detect tha= t and act appropriate. * One might be interested in the metric while the test adds an insignific= ant load only. While receiver tries to consume service X, what's the metric= seen from Y?=20 (may help to clarify, whether the access causes trouble or another net= work section). - Measuring the maximum RPM as seen from the test server is part of the tes= t or it isn't? That's not clear to me by now. I'm favouring to make measuring the maximum RPM part of the test, this ma= y help to scale results. - The test set-up should prevent application as DoS attack tool. Regards, Ruediger From: Marcus Ihlar Subject: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness Date: December 6, 2021 at 7:52:58 AM PST To: "ippm@ietf.org" > List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group=20 Hi IPPM, This email starts an adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness, "= Responsiveness under Working Conditions". This document specifies the "RPM = Test" for measuring user experience when the network is fully loaded. The i= ntended status of the document is Experimental. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-01 This adoption call will last until Monday, December 20. Please review the d= ocument, and reply to this email thread to indicate if you think IPPM shoul= d adopt this document. BR, Marcus _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org _______________________________________________ ippm mailing list ippm@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From nobody Wed Dec 22 23:44:12 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63A5F3A127F for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 23:44:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 72BboUrqDhrm for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 23:44:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ed1-x532.google.com (mail-ed1-x532.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::532]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED8E73A127E for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 23:44:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ed1-x532.google.com with SMTP id o20so18011577eds.10 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 23:44:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=wMY8Q4ivAbOLPvv4swU9OtDVWTS8pSKQPLgcmS8UFe4=; b=faJhx/d/6lSESZbnMujoEN6xs98gDAgJmJDS2hgjRru8qZWlWHEeDfmCZNC7YVcbOI vNFpAW8KEq14gcqe0/Ef9/Zbz248KMA9G31NjB3mTIYP6MhPRMycYI6+0OY8FPsemsnd PViRVk1NjhNR05vmz8aOb+jZ1X0Tr/+hJiOiGoSFoGmNwNPQPkI4qTICcoC6BYyjDtAz mA5GF7IUSiwa5+vxVM5W+sdvWjsXfcLxd0AoZecxAHAWcWrymrevmLlwZ9WYy3VKBSr8 wZIC8Ecj9cqg9eh/nRQqIwP49IMt+V1+2lMxd5TumKbK1Wd9S3varNH2gs0/gVoI9mxb JmdA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wMY8Q4ivAbOLPvv4swU9OtDVWTS8pSKQPLgcmS8UFe4=; b=tpPV0XOq7B/JU7dNC5dVurnI/L97fmuKVdg3f7qM/7/eYJG5mPKlypBJNO/diw7dmn 2thl8tKmItWOxSlmCXtMGshA/XbpRXEYPQ4WdE0ZJp2arMQq36o2mgYG4YMaM9aQaJ99 8aDgYkQvYhX8ZzlKxyouk8WaUgJfQxLKekYI0OphWDfQ3n6G8f00Sm0+4OlTh5e2rqHd DgEJu1h9uzuXudvw+9dU8BMFPn0K8vjkX0vV7r7i1Rxc1O1TQef/vzyuUvsBgnWbKm2J WZH6G8nmGfJU8wDN6cQoBUml28bOhCSuM9aXbPrcoQbP+UHvqk2D5HdPuFF5kKC6fEcD njpQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531QtsEc+cOV2cwG4bH9fKxoOOKAUgttvEEklBT3A/RgBJ5nsgMI KyOAiS6C8P0FyPBq025CeHYLtLeKaCOfwi9luMAvFDNr X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy8LtxT2Zj3ezdaU3sttovhfyt6/7U6+lVfcemnPaYqhVc0BHrOpuCK5P55VxeHoNDUaDkIhpvFDKEB4Q1GAQY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:1203:: with SMTP id c3mr1070346edw.253.1640245441404; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 23:44:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 23:43:50 -0800 Message-ID: To: Marcus Ihlar Cc: IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e1252305d3cb6613" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 07:44:11 -0000 --000000000000e1252305d3cb6613 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Marcus, Authors, et al, apologies for the belated response. I've read the draft and have some comments to share with you: - as I understand it, the proposed new responsiveness metric is viewed as the single indicator of a bufferbloat condition in a network. As I recall, the discussion at Measuring Network Quality for End-Users worksh= op and on the mailing list indicated, that there=E2=80=99s no consensus on what behaviors, symptoms= can reliably signal the bufferbloat. It seems that it would be reasonable to first define what is being measured, characterized by the responsiveness metric. Having a document that discusses and defines the bufferbloat wou= ld be great. - It seems like in the foundation of the methodology described in the draft lies the assumption that without adding new flows the available bandwidth is constant, does not change. While that is mostly t= he case, there are technologies that behave differently and may change bandwidth because of the outside conditions. Some of these behaviors of links with variable discrete bandwidth are discussed in, for example, RF= C 8330 and RFC 8625 . - Then, I find the motivation not to use time units to express the responsiveness metric not convincing: "Latency" is a poor measure of responsiveness, since it can be hard for the general public to understand. The units are unfamiliar ("what is a millisecond?") and counterintuitive ("100 msec - that sounds good - it's only a tenth of a second!"). I would appreciate these topics being discussed and addressed in the draft before it is adopted by the WG. Regards, Greg On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 7:53 AM Marcus Ihlar wrote: > Hi IPPM, > > > > This email starts an adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness, > "Responsiveness under Working Conditions=E2=80=9D. This document specifie= s the =E2=80=9CRPM > Test=E2=80=9D for measuring user experience when the network is fully loa= ded. The > intended status of the document is Experimental. > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/ > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-0= 1 > > > > This adoption call will last until *Monday, December 20*. Please review > the document, and reply to this email thread to indicate if you think IPP= M > should adopt this document. > > > > BR, > > Marcus > > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > --000000000000e1252305d3cb6613 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear M= arcus, Authors, et al,
apologies for the belated response.
I&= #39;ve read the draft and have some comments to share with you:
<= ul>
  • as I understand it, the proposed new responsiveness metric is viewed= as the single indicator of a bufferbloat condition in a network. As I reca= ll,=C2=A0the discussion at Measuring Network Quality for End-Users workshop= and on the mailing list indicated, that there=E2=80=99s = no consensus on what behaviors, symptoms can reliably signal the bufferbloa= t. It seems that it would be reasonable to first define what is being measu= red, characterized=C2=A0by the responsiveness metric. Having a document tha= t discusses and defines the bufferbloat would be great.
  • It seems li= ke in the foundation of the methodology described in the draft lies the ass= umption=C2=A0that without adding new flows the available=C2=A0bandwidth=C2= =A0is constant, does not change. While that is mostly the case, there are t= echnologies that behave differently and may change bandwidth because of the= outside conditions. Some of these behaviors of links with variable discret= e=C2=A0bandwidth are discussed in, for example,=C2=A0RFC 83= 30=C2=A0and RFC 8625.
  • Then, I find the moti= vation not to use time units to express the responsiveness metric not convi= ncing:
    • =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Latency" = is a poor measure of responsiveness, since it can be hard
    =
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0for the general public to understand.=C2=A0 The= units are unfamiliar
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0("w= hat is a millisecond?") and counterintuitive ("100 msec - that
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0sounds good - it's only a te= nth of a second!").

    I would appreciate these topics being dis= cussed and addressed in the draft before it is adopted by the WG.

    Regards,
    Greg

    On Mon, Dec 6, 202= 1 at 7:53 AM Marcus Ihlar <marcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.com@dmar= c.ietf.org> wrote:

    Hi IPPM,<= u>

    = =C2=A0

    This emai= l starts an adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness, "Resp= onsiveness under Working Conditions=E2=80=9D. This document specifies the = =E2=80=9CRPM Test=E2=80=9D for measuring user experience when the network is fully loaded. The intended status of the document is Experiment= al. =C2=A0=C2=A0

    = =C2=A0

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-c= paasch-ippm-responsiveness/

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/= html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-01

    = =C2=A0

    This adop= tion call will last until Monday, December 20. Please review the document, and reply to this e= mail thread to indicate if you think IPPM should adopt this document.

    = =C2=A0

    BR,

    Marcus

    =C2=A0

    _______________________________________________
    ippm mailing list
    ippm@= ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm<= br>
    --000000000000e1252305d3cb6613-- From nobody Thu Dec 23 07:40:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51DDD3A174A for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 07:40:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yL0mnDLjpcAJ for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 07:40:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA15F3A1747 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 07:40:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id q5so7590178ioj.7 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 07:40:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fDpJyWDStOErk5t2fdipmRUEdb5yWtnlmqBnKkP0Cec=; b=CU+O0dJMaV7c4NtjKy5qaCBpcabKKduHuZPSx38vlKOO5JF9KervyzbueEFaw/GVnK tQhxQO1vUkbPDU1B+qegZRL0lIUIddred/ewuWYSP3fPYiVglfU6oWQtD7UL3Aa6+6ns O1HxhBqU45YS7eLxH341xvVjU7dq5b0rQ1G88bf1whuwreyPYXXnkINXVUpkbEbbwAES VT7Q+bFVWypkC5m+7YnuhGijclBzZbTBKfp5KFXavKUQhdeZ2vy6qUvXyYTK+eEogRv7 CZO8wI0+hCmDggommfrKXnPYQpM4QXK6f7w4Eb5izLGeRp/z1vb5DhytQwzPpHifOEal yYkQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fDpJyWDStOErk5t2fdipmRUEdb5yWtnlmqBnKkP0Cec=; b=rU5T+z5JcI7ENeQS8j+2QPw+rQat/MxtlbbeM3CgatZVZXsddvjvXVYBY/wb2OyFFj nyXNf5Ik2S5edDDRKPSBWKewdA40j3rJu3hl7YCxHSEGv39q4uGsRvMLvg0sanDP6JLq DghTZJDDJhGwsxKBtkSyK9F5r/h7HIVzcl+uap42fFsIlPxeLqy5fIA7aTgZJWxSm27C Q7kjRdpHCBFYwioYzXtvotUgU5uHJ/CJwfro+5XFwlXZ5gpQOYObLuqPMI2PJyIjQUhK 2XFEPX4lYRAJNJEpK1DPDmbvtGlGmxl9K2Iw739LfTPwXeAFc8mD0PNhTSxlaAugSvS+ CcyA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5334LT9B65ttm0zLibA4xca/6S4A4E81KyJTLkvnAMs1dtW8lplb tGLVKFxqN6IzMpIZqM0E64TLVxJ6u9jCsVfQvxg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzPMQ/tu7ukldlYsb+JN320Nmvc9N7vHwQlZbgqiCB1dlCMLwW7VuzIyZX+BJw8dcXP66c84oDPxBookuNzORw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:3292:: with SMTP id f18mr1633492jav.115.1640274046716; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 07:40:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dave Taht Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 07:40:34 -0800 Message-ID: To: Greg Mirsky Cc: Marcus Ihlar , IETF IPPM WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 15:40:53 -0000 I support adoption. My concerns are that I do not know if a single metric is achievable, and also the methods created SHOULD try to find the bottleneck link. I'd like open source software created along the way (the apple effort which I applaud has released the server side) to explore the issues. On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 11:44 PM Greg Mirsky wrote: > > Dear Marcus, Authors, et al, > apologies for the belated response. > I've read the draft and have some comments to share with you: > > as I understand it, the proposed new responsiveness metric is viewed as t= he single indicator of a bufferbloat condition in a network. As I recall, t= he discussion at Measuring Network Quality for End-Users workshop and on th= e mailing list indicated, that there=E2=80=99s no consensus on what behavio= rs, symptoms can reliably signal the bufferbloat. It seems that it would be= reasonable to first define what is being measured, characterized by the re= sponsiveness metric. Having a document that discusses and defines the buffe= rbloat would be great. > It seems like in the foundation of the methodology described in the draft= lies the assumption that without adding new flows the available bandwidth = is constant, does not change. While that is mostly the case, there are tech= nologies that behave differently and may change bandwidth because of the ou= tside conditions. Some of these behaviors of links with variable discrete b= andwidth are discussed in, for example, RFC 8330 and RFC 8625. > Then, I find the motivation not to use time units to express the responsi= veness metric not convincing: > > "Latency" is a poor measure of responsiveness, since it can be hard > for the general public to understand. The units are unfamiliar > ("what is a millisecond?") and counterintuitive ("100 msec - that > sounds good - it's only a tenth of a second!"). > > > I would appreciate these topics being discussed and addressed in the draf= t before it is adopted by the WG. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 7:53 AM Marcus Ihlar wrote: >> >> Hi IPPM, >> >> >> >> This email starts an adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness= , "Responsiveness under Working Conditions=E2=80=9D. This document specifie= s the =E2=80=9CRPM Test=E2=80=9D for measuring user experience when the net= work is fully loaded. The intended status of the document is Experimental. >> >> >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/ >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-= 01 >> >> >> >> This adoption call will last until Monday, December 20. Please review th= e document, and reply to this email thread to indicate if you think IPPM sh= ould adopt this document. >> >> >> >> BR, >> >> Marcus >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ippm mailing list >> ippm@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > _______________________________________________ > ippm mailing list > ippm@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm --=20 I tried to build a better future, a few times: https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC From nobody Thu Dec 23 18:45:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 655563A0E66 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 18:45:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vSTeAdfdfjmW for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 18:45:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxhk.zte.com.cn (mxhk.zte.com.cn [63.216.63.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A333F3A0E67 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 2021 18:45:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mse-fl2.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.14.239]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mxhk.zte.com.cn (FangMail) with ESMTPS id 4JKryT5nrrz7R0HR; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 10:45:21 +0800 (CST) Received: from njxapp05.zte.com.cn ([10.41.132.204]) by mse-fl2.zte.com.cn with SMTP id 1BO2jF3D077793; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 10:45:15 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from xiao.min2@zte.com.cn) Received: from mapi (njxapp01[null]) by mapi (Zmail) with MAPI id mid201; Fri, 24 Dec 2021 10:45:15 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 10:45:15 +0800 (CST) X-Zmail-TransId: 2af961c5343b608c6173 X-Mailer: Zmail v1.0 Message-ID: <202112241045151378136@zte.com.cn> Mime-Version: 1.0 From: To: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-MAIL: mse-fl2.zte.com.cn 1BO2jF3D077793 X-Fangmail-Gw-Spam-Type: 0 X-FangMail-Miltered: at cgslv5.04-192.168.250.137.novalocal with ID 61C53441.000 by FangMail milter! X-FangMail-Envelope: 1640313921/4JKryT5nrrz7R0HR/61C53441.000/10.30.14.239/[10.30.14.239]/mse-fl2.zte.com.cn/ X-Fangmail-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-Fangmail-MID-QID: 61C53441.000/4JKryT5nrrz7R0HR Archived-At: Subject: [ippm] =?utf-8?q?Comments_on_draft-fioccola-rfc8321bis-01?= X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 02:45:30 -0000 Hi Giuseppe, I noticed in the -01 revision you added that "The switching after a fixed number of packets is an additional possibility but its detailed specification is out of scope." I like this change, it gives the clear practical direction on fixed-timer method, as well as reserving the possibility for someone to develop details based on fixed-number method. I suggest to apply the similar description on Single-Marking Methodology defined in section 3.3.1. There are mainly three reasons, the first one is that Double-Marking Methodology defined in section 3.3.2 is already the practical direction, the second one is that IMHO one-bit saving of Single-Marking Methodology doesn't bring meaningful benefit, the third one is that Single-Marking Methodology may bring intrinsic error due to packet misordering, as added in section 3.3.1 of the -01 revision. Happy Holidays to you and all IPPM folks! Best Regards, Xiao Min From nobody Tue Dec 28 07:19:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC6553A16B7 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 2021 07:19:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.596 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.596 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=cWSi5w63; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=BuZup2So Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP 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Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2204A3A1052 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 00:15:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CTE_8BIT_MISMATCH=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jLlc8FZeRnQm for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 00:15:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxhk.zte.com.cn (mxhk.zte.com.cn [63.216.63.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB42A3A1051 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 00:15:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxct.zte.com.cn (unknown [192.168.251.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mxhk.zte.com.cn (FangMail) with ESMTPS id 4JP43R6F1Cz6FKgy for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 16:15:47 +0800 (CST) Received: from mse-fl2.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.14.239]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mxct.zte.com.cn (FangMail) with ESMTPS id 4JP42r5s8Cz501N7; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 16:15:16 +0800 (CST) Received: from njxapp01.zte.com.cn ([10.41.132.200]) by mse-fl2.zte.com.cn with SMTP id 1BT8F2D2083526; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 16:15:02 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from xiao.min2@zte.com.cn) Received: from mapi (njxapp01[null]) by mapi (Zmail) with MAPI id mid201; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 16:15:02 +0800 (CST) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 16:15:02 +0800 (CST) X-Zmail-TransId: 2af961cc19064e6ed651 X-Mailer: Zmail v1.0 Message-ID: <202112291615025234000@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: References: 202112101500302348450@zte.com.cn, 202112201001087601811@zte.com.cn, CY4PR11MB1672E5B32B26C99186B56F16DA439@CY4PR11MB1672.namprd11.prod.outlook.com Mime-Version: 1.0 From: To: Cc: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-MAIL: mse-fl2.zte.com.cn 1BT8F2D2083526 X-Fangmail-Gw-Spam-Type: 0 X-FangMail-Miltered: at cgslv5.04-192.168.250.138.novalocal with ID 61CC1933.000 by FangMail milter! X-FangMail-Envelope: 1640765747/4JP43R6F1Cz6FKgy/61CC1933.000/192.168.251.13/[192.168.251.13]/mxct.zte.com.cn/ X-Fangmail-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-Fangmail-MID-QID: 61CC1933.000/4JP43R6F1Cz6FKgy Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] =?utf-8?q?Progressing=C2=A0draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-stat?= =?utf-8?q?e?= X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 08:15:57 -0000 Hi Frank, Thanks for replying to my email during your holiday season. Please see inline ("XM>>>"). Best Regards, Xiao Min ------------------原始邮件------------------ 发件人：FrankBrockners(fbrockne) 收件人：肖敏10093570; 抄送人：ippm@ietf.org;tpauly@apple.com; 日 期 ：2021年12月28日 23:21 主 题 ：RE: Re:[ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state Hi Xiao Min, Please see inline ("...FB") > -----Original Message----- > From: xiao.min2@zte.com.cn > Sent: Monday, 20 December 2021 03:01 > To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > Cc: ippm@ietf.org; tpauly@apple.com > Subject: Re:[ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state > > Hi Frank, > > Thank you for the quick reply. > I believe you've provided your answer to my question implicitly, however what I > requested is a clear conclusion, on both the mailing list and the draft-ietf-ippm- > ioam-deployment. > If I understand you correctly this time, you meant that the IOAM deployment > must include a centralized controller or network manager or similar, ..FB: Let me restate what I said below: The current IOAM drafts assume that IOAM is deployed in a limited domain (RFC8799), also called controlled domain, i.e., a deployment where an operator does have control over the nodes in the network and their configuration. IMHO the use of the term "controller" does not help the discussion, because "controller" means different things to different people. The key aspect is that in a limited/controlled domain, the operator has control over the nodes in the limited domain and their configuration. XM>>> In a limited domain, the operator has control over the nodes in the limited domain and their configuration, doesn't mean there must be a network entity (e.g. controller or network manager or similar) which has control over the nodes in the limited domain and their configuration, is my understanding correct or not? Wrt/ DEX: On top of the ability to control the nodes and their configuration, DEX requires you to have a solution in place which allows you to retrieve, ingest, process, and correlate per-packet IOAM data from every node in the limited domain. This requirement to retrieve, ingest, process, and correlate per-packet IOAM data from every node in the limited domain is specific to the DEX IOAM-Option-Type and not required by the other IOAM-Option-Types. For example, the two IOAM Trace-Option-Types automatically correlate the information from the different nodes by assembling the info in the node-list array while the packet traverses the network. XM>>> This requirement to retrieve, ingest, process, and correlate per-packet IOAM data from every node in the limited domain is not required by some IOAM-Option-Types, that means there may be a limited domain that doesn't meet the requirement that there is a network entity (e.g. controller or network manager or similar) which has direct connection to every node, is my understanding correct or not? What is required from my perspective for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state, is a crisp definition of the target deployment environment draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state targets and the personas acting in that deployment environment. In a limited/controlled domain, we can assume that the operator knows the configuration of the nodes. The problem definition of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state seems to be that "someone" who does not know the configuration of the nodes in the deployment environment wants to retrieve the configuration of the nodes. XM>>> Let me give a simplified example of the target deployment environment and the personas acting in that deployment environment. Assuming that the limited domain is an IPv6 domain, specifically an enterprise campus using physical connections between devices (as described in section 4 of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-17), the operator knows the configuration of every node within the enterprise campus, however there is no a network entity (e.g. controller or network manager or similar) that knows the configuration of every node. In order to deploy IOAM Pre-allocated Tracing, the operator instructs the IOAM encapsulating node to add IOAM header into data packets meeting a rule of DA+SA+Flow Label, through Command Line or SNMP or NETCONF or similar, the IOAM encapsulating node firstly does traceroute using DA+SA+Flow Label and secondly sends ICMPv6 Echo Request to every node discovered by traceroute, the IOAM transit and decapsulating nodes respond with ICMPv6 Echo Reply, and then the IOA M encapsulating node knows what the IOAM header looks like, e.g. including how many node data lists and how much space allocated for each node data list. Is this example clear or not? Cheers, Frank > then I have > a hard time trying to understand why four types of IOAM are needed in section 4 > of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-deployment > (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam- > deployment#section-4). IMHO only one type of IOAM is necessary and enough, > that's Direct Export IOAM described in section 4.4, would you please explain > elaborately? > > Best Regards, > Xiao Min > ------------------原始邮件------------------ > 发件人：FrankBrockners(fbrockne) > 收件人：肖敏10093570; > 抄送人：ippm@ietf.org;tpauly@apple.com; > 日 期 ：2021年12月17日 17:47 > 主 题 ：RE: Re:[ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state Hi Xiao Min, > per https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data- > 17#section-4, IOAM is focused on "limited domains" as defined in [RFC8799], > which is per RFC 8799 the same as what is also referred to as a "controlled > environment". Personally I understand "Controlled environment" as an > environment where an operator does have control over the nodes in the > network and their configuration, i.e., the operator has control over his nodes, > knows what network elements he is dealing with and what the config of the > nodes is. How this control is implemented - whether there is one or several > "controllers" or "network managers" or similar - is an implementation detail > IMHO. > Cheers, Frank > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xiao.min2@zte.com.cn > > Sent: Friday, 17 December 2021 03:29 > > To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > > Cc: ippm@ietf.org; tpauly@apple.com > > Subject: Re:[ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state > > > > Hi Frank, > > > > Thanks for your thorough review and thoughtful comments. > > I apologize if I misinterpreted your mind. > > Considering that your holiday season is coming, before digging into > > technical details, I suggest that we discuss the IOAM deployment environment > first. > > As you may have noticed while reading through > > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf- state-02, in the introduction section it > > says "A centralized controller which owns the enabled IOAM > > capabilities of each IOAM device could be used in some IOAM > > deployments. The IOAM encapsulating node can discover the enabled > > IOAM capabilities infomation from the centralized controller, using, > > for example, NETCONF/YANG, PCEP, or BGP. In the IOAM deployment > > scenario where there is no centralized controller, NETCONF/YANG or IGP may > be used by the IOAM encapsulating node to discover these IOAM capabilities > information." > > I know you're the primary author of both IOAM-Data and IOAM-Deployment > > documents, so I have a fundamental question to you: Is the above > > statement correct or not? > > More specifically, if you can confirm that "the IOAM deployment > > scenario where there is no centralized controller" doesn't exist at > > all, on both the mailing list and the IOAM-Deployment document, then I > > suggest IPPM WG to abandon draft- ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state, that > > would save the energy of the whole wg including you and me. > > > > Best Regards, > > Xiao Min > > ------------------原始邮件------------------ > > 发件人：FrankBrockners(fbrockne) > > 收件人：肖敏10093570;ippm@ietf.org; > > 抄送人：Tommy Pauly; > > 日 期 ：2021年12月16日 20:56 > > 主 题 ：RE: [ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state Hi Xiao > > Min, Thanks for posting draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state-02. I read > > through the updated version and looked at the diff to the 01 version > > (https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state- > > 01&url2=draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state-02). Different from what you > > state below, I don't see any of my comments reflected. > > The two main points I mentioned in the last WG meeting were about (a) > > alignment with draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang and (b) enhancements to the > > security section, reflecting that the protocol you are defining is a > > network management protocol, and needs to be secured as such. > > More specifically: > > * Alignment with draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang: > > The IPPM WG is in the process of defining a YANG module for IOAM: > > draft-ietf- ippm-ioam-yang. We should have a single, comprehensive > > model for config information for IOAM. That model can then be rendered > > into different transports (be it JSON, XML, or yet another format - to > > then be carried over a e.g. ICMP in your case). Right now > > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state heads down a path of defining a new > > set of management objects - many are similar to what > > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang already defines, some they are less > > comprehensive, some hint at additional information that > > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang does not cover yet: E.g., you define a > > "Pre-allocated Tracing Capabilities Object" where > > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang has a "Preallocated Tracing Profile" > > defined. You define ingress interface fields, which is information, > > which is more comprehensively defined by the ioam-filter grouping. You > > define specific fields to describe the timestamp format used by a > > node, which is information that should be described as part of the > > ioam-info container - and which is currently missing in draft-ietf-ippm-ioam- > yang; point well taken :-). It is interesting to note that draft-ietf-ippm-ioam- > conf-state does not even reference draft-ietf- ippm-ioam-yang. > > From my perspective we should have one single data model for IOAM > > configuration - and that is the YANG module defined in > > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam- yang. Let's make sure that this model covers all > > the information required to properly manage IOAM. Then > > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state would be solely focused on defining > > how that YANG module (from draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang) would be rendered > into e.g., ICMP as a carrier protocol. > > * Security: Revision -02 does not seem to update the security section. > > IMHO, section 6 on security considerations should be enhanced to > > clearly articulate that we're dealing with very sensitive information. > > Consider loaning from e.g., > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6241#section-9. As part of > > the discussion, it would be good to see an explanation where you'd > > expect draft- ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state to be used. Given the > > discussion in the Introduction section, you seem to assume an > > environment that does not have a central network management station / > > controller in place. Or in other terms, you seem to target a > > deployment, which isn't a limited domain per RFC 8799. In that case, I > > would expect that we have normative language that requires the use of strong > authentication and encryption between the nodes (i.e., MUST use ICMP with AH > and ESP..). > > In addition to the above, I struggle to understand the "Operational > > Guide" in section 4: Could you shed a bit more light on how you expect > > things to work - and what a target deployment environment would look > > like? It seems that you assume that you don't know the network nor the > > destination addresses in your > > network: Do you expect that you would do regular "ICMP echo sweeps" in > > your network? Do you expect that, while doing the expanding ring > > search, an ICMP time exceeded message would also carry the "IOAM > > Capabilities Response Container Header", so that the capabilities > > container would not only be carried in the echo reply message but also in the > time exceeded message? > > Thanks, Frank > > (BTW - Note that due to the upcoming holiday season, replies might be > delayed). > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: ippm On Behalf Of xiao.min2@zte.com.cn > > > Sent: Friday, 10 December 2021 08:01 > > > To: ippm@ietf.org > > > Subject: [ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state > > > > > > Hi IPPM WG, > > > > > > The -02 version of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state has been posted. > > > There are mainly two changes, one is on IOAM Tracing Capabilities > > > Objects to make them applicable to ICMPv6 extensions, another one is > > > on IOAM Proof-of- Transit Capabilities Object to make it aligned > > > with the updated IOAM-Data document. > > > Also note that I've had an offline discussion with wg chairs and > > > Frank Brockners, my conclusion is that Frank's concern raised at > > > IETF 112 has been addressed. If that's not the case, please speak up. > > > With that said, I think this draft is ready for WGLC. > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > Xiao Min > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ippm mailing list > > > ippm@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From nobody Wed Dec 29 02:40:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 189083A127F for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 02:40:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.596 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.596 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+ID4gPiA+IGlwcG0gbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+ID4gPiA+ IGlwcG1AaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gPiA+ID4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0 aW5mby9pcHBtDQo= From nobody Wed Dec 29 06:09:06 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DE533A1695; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 06:09:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=uliege.be Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost 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b=n3bvt7jxQlMGa2PhRKiNoqwafVMa2Une4aa5HKejeopHMFXVMwp8MZ22XRaeJGwdv sHmfA2yW3fCEhh3oFT8XdlOLxVieve9riah2TsQ/CDZiV/DJk6Se7+4Wjf85SzhY5i 3cJRLc28t1iHARhdEsEePrKIbnD/yxrTscIz+230mQNAOJsNxFvo8kZQ88MRk/URrq etBNsRqg98KmeGM3ps2kG1JVsgeYa/xHw7eWpnhN+dNXfHSlm+tmUmV8p/9Y/VcIXf CJEGwCadrVxEGmjHquHNrpgp0IxFim9wm2MxVCNatLBT6sOyQCt6AJa3s3spfvjnpv z/1IGwJIn4kmw== Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mbx12-zne.ulg.ac.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D61E602254FB; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 15:08:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from mbx12-zne.ulg.ac.be ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mbx12-zne.ulg.ac.be [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 57Wz2DFr7sgR; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 15:08:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from mbx12-zne.ulg.ac.be (mbx12-zne.ulg.ac.be [139.165.32.199]) by mbx12-zne.ulg.ac.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27DCD6016F43D; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 15:08:55 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 15:08:55 +0100 (CET) From: Justin Iurman Reply-To: Justin Iurman To: Erik Kline Cc: IPv6 List , Marcus Ihlar , ippm@ietf.org Message-ID: <1698496306.248840871.1640786935077.JavaMail.zimbra@uliege.be> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [81.240.24.148] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.8.15_GA_4018 (ZimbraWebClient - FF95 (Linux)/8.8.15_GA_4026) Thread-Topic: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options Thread-Index: CyQ3rKorCvUKdRer9WlQAfEvSABpwA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 14:09:05 -0000 Hi ippm, 6man, I do believe this document is almost ready, though it probably needs a new version to address the following review comments. 1) In section 4 ("In-situ OAM Metadata Transport in IPv6"), third paragraph, it says: "In order for IOAM to work in IPv6 networks, IOAM MUST be explicitly enabled per interface on every node within the IOAM domain. Unless a particular interface is explicitly enabled (i.e., explicitly configured) for IOAM, a router MUST drop packets that contain extension headers carrying IOAM data-fields. This is the default behavior and is independent of whether the Hop-by-Hop options or Destination options are used to encode the IOAM data. This ensures that IOAM data does not unintentionally get forwarded outside the IOAM domain." I don't think "a router MUST drop packets" is correct. IOAM options are defined with type "00", i.e., skip over this option and continue processing the header. Instead, I would rather have something like "a router MUST ignore IOAM options". Indeed, you don't want a node to drop packets with IOAM options, when not configured, to keep consistency with the behavior of type "00". This is the role of a firewall to drop packets if it detects IOAM injections or IOAM leaks. New text suggestion: "In order for IOAM to work in IPv6 networks, IOAM MUST be explicitly enabled per interface on every node within the IOAM domain. Unless a particular interface is explicitly enabled (i.e., explicitly configured) for IOAM, a router MUST ignore IOAM Options. As additional security, IOAM domains SHOULD provide a mechanism to prevent injections at ingress or leaks at egress." Note that the last sentence could be omitted, as consideration #4 (see section 5.1) already talks about it. 2) Section 5.4.1 ("IPv6-in-IPv6 encapsulation") describes a hacky way to encapsulate packets. Instead of using the egress as the outer destination address, it uses the same destination address as the inner one. I understand the pros of such a technique (i.e., same forwarding path), but it goes against RFC2473 and, as a consequence, also against RFC8200. So, I don't think it should be part of a standard. Since the "normal" IPv6-in-IPv6 use case is implicitly included in the next section (5.4.2, "IP-in-IPv6 encapsulation with ULA"), I think section 5.4.1 could/should be dropped. Thanks, Justin On Dec 17, 2021, at 10:37 PM, Erik Kline ek.ietf@gmail.com wrote: > +6MAN WG, just as an FYI > > On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 7:39 AM Marcus Ihlar > wrote: >> >> Hello IPPM, >> >> This email starts a Working Group Last Call on >> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options. >> >> >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options/ >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options-06 >> >> >> >> Please provide feedback by replying to this email with your reviews and if you >> think this document is ready to progress, by Friday, January 14. >> >> >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Marcus & Tommy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ippm mailing list >> ippm@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed Dec 29 11:16:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D19933A08C2; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 11:14:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.039 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.039 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.559, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z595f0JAGofQ; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 11:14:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D37163A08C0; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 11:14:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id s6so18230186ioj.0; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 11:14:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=wgGgIv5mjbXoMtAxcEFAYMTXczi1WDCa+dXwtw5lB4Q=; b=ebZXHhRZW7yPOvxURVp5+s5O28WLKJV/PGyNbdgLNtRCHN5n9a0+sdO9xFK4O2yHYu 1s8eagArcowxXtEujw2sAsBXZzLGjUKWS+/ZkukOUJ2UuI5LCpaKQXT4q1vmHytVt8JT NjCzvJT+oLzQnKbrlyDyvJlxGrYOwO+H2D1fmb2iHOPoLYCVGLU0/rAEUEt1gQ0k24xz tUmCIlt8ml2XsYlj4vXwu58uv9F61PoscSigkKlrvQd/hYGTjczVSfyIXGWzOgjzD/qR Sw4y3W/Bfa10lWQR/dSmxEO//hQBAj1N0yMyzIP2sCk53JaniVP1Scc7TzBXUJXhAG8A iHZA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wgGgIv5mjbXoMtAxcEFAYMTXczi1WDCa+dXwtw5lB4Q=; b=G4BvpwVSw1eVxXYYuMwLDR2Xc3Oy2dJq2S5HuKLVxIG951LTpACoM01kjfKlFhqz+3 0QEuDXsyKH7qB1RV8flgUqa6kts1G/h5JFHVxp6xRp+/lwFWM0WIg5IfWDMI614iihVn z8vF45NyTBUrokY1siT9ygpnRQf9VQaDxjFIvVrsLvf1izWRPg67chaVSFLn8+3q+1cC EcaQYxxjCFzrWasJmBy6vcHI/ahx2wkJ/jQtMaPrQ2OVm+t2sch7qSTfiCUkPCR5LaWS SNkoCqL0OasNCtNZnU9Z7rcs265W3aWi0o/Tl5PX1yRxjdaQRniSKNrn/C4YQjECXzSY 1+vQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Qcp41EEtJ/EAD3C2R54ufRFnIGfRwV6t48gfHQF+wO7uJGYBO 5RGnNBPF4aWGrFyrSXYzOBfccjTaczecdF64Nco= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxpmGFJZMqbO2ARtm3zSkpH2d38/rMtWkA79viwGOW1WbdMvts2cnpIFlRrqmWS3nQqWDQjZHxNY5mQNrHr6k0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:3391:: with SMTP id h17mr12390200jav.188.1640805289725; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 11:14:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 06:14:23 +1100 Message-ID: To: Erik Kline Cc: IPv6 List , Marcus Ihlar , "ippm@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 19:14:53 -0000 Hi, Hmm, not sure how I missed this, I thought I was subscribed to the IOAM ML. I've been thinking for a while that there might be an opportunity to simplify IOAM over IPv6 significantly, based on the following: - that the IOAM domain is contiguous, which I think is really saying that all IOAM nodes in the IOAM paths/IOAM domain are directly adjacent at layer 2, meaning directly connected to each other via layer 2 links (or tunnels, which are virtual layer 2 links.) - IOAM over IPv6 IOAM nodes are RFC8200 IPv6 Nodes. - per RFC4291, all IPv6 enabled interfaces on IPv6 nodes are required to have Link-Local addresses. Since the IOAM domain is a contiguous path of IPv6 nodes, it means that the DA of the outer IOAM encapsulation IPv6 packet could be the next node's IPv6 Link-Local Address. For each IOAM node (IPv6 router/host) these LLAs would be the same LLAs as the next hop router used by routes/routing protocols e.g. OSPF route next hop LLAs or default router LLAs advertised to hosts via RAs. This idea is really just a simpler version of the IPv6-in-IPv6 using ULA method described. The ULA addressing was partly necessary to skip past/over non-IOAM enabled nodes within an IOAM domain, and was a way to prevent or mitigate the effects of IOAM encapsulated packets leaking. Using LLAs for IOAM encap DAs solves that problem too, and is also simpler because there is no need to deploy a ULA address space. The automatic LLAs can be used instead. That being said, I've also wondered about a "donut" IOAM deployment model. IOAM processing is performed at a contiguous IOAM edge of the network (e.g. IOAM enabled access, distribution layers) using LLAs. IOAM is not normally performed in the core of the network for performance reasons, and ULA addressing is used for the encapsulation DAs to send those IOAM packets from one side of the network core "donut hole" to the other. Regards, Mark. 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Wed, 29 Dec 2021 21:29:46 +0000 From: Haoyu Song To: Marcus Ihlar , "ippm@ietf.org" CC: 6man Thread-Topic: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options Thread-Index: AdfzWzgRLVzROO3gTGutryPtfDbU2AJnFtYw Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 21:29:46 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=futurewei.com; x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: cafbd9bb-b337-406b-543b-08d9cb125645 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BL0PR13MB4291:EE_ x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: YGfnUdFPgMlMlaYI5ZpHcsm1QzsfsncveUHHAYUOcoVr5fANcW8rNIZE25QkMB8mIyfhjGC8PhReuZYQityfX4gHzuqkcaoV03JBXjfiZ4NLhLkzRUUEfiRnZoWugSDxW0Q29BvnfVgqIwfRYgKe8HKoBlOUhUkxQaWzL9nLdxB7K5b2YNOBXdI3Vh1d58fXi2YZoZWkHkld9EKuuiBwSMTzMkyO5ldnzIU8vH+uWgLrf1VfxE14Zq7BckT+H1CmISlL0tFO4a+jVbLbUktP0/V0gzNFY5BBnGX2NIJ03/Tugq+rTm0JVNDrBYo6RPHYU6AJmgL8I3X6q3YvKW5rFZUxhEgn2cKIEmietx5Fqt97ncceLL2mwoKGyQCcWdE3UQZx8f6siU1VRGckfD1IixDfnsTNm8VKe6ddaYKnXYWQKKndhYAYkaVnZGWgH4Mjv8p9rm+/9+zkdiTTp0V9jOdjC7hiWpqILKLAWJmoJzqQSmQEZtkmdtNH0cODjS0F11vV0iGBbcQovfAWYBBoEtlzIzAdBIXE8FrZ9s7l5fPG/r+L0ORi8ChQnRIQKxs+vgAoa5mVFdrm/mu5dNcyueHI+4WVlTn+LXqG1Q6uIdD5dsK86o+iNRDnVsltFURV3IdYPwufwhiPkaHBCJniiZlevvSjfvfoiSL71/HFPjZtjoO9nev9SrGuIzpxffBB2Jse0swRLDcttcyljNqR5ADvmNKF5zfPlluRjEFd0jyiw7SAFpOSO9s7IEjgUW3+NK7vjIBLCF14KKu2X51BdcBoBcHTQ8TsueBHEbo6+h1sZCwcD08GhG44UDHDltmrbyk37u+ivYGOeoLnCnf7dewCItygyJk/KzJfEHFw5ea/uHqkTSE1Ge9BVzAWFgKy x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi IPPM and 6MAN, After reading the draft, I have one question. My understanding is that the = proposed approach basically uses IP-in-IP encapsulation and encapsulates th= e IOAM option in the outer IPv6 header. While the in-band measurement is in= tended for the inner IPv6 packet, I'm concerned on how the requirement C1 c= an be met. For example, I'm not sure how the forwarding and ECMP can behave= identically with and without the outer IPv6 header (i.e., for the overlay = and underlay networks). Thanks, Haoyu From: ippm On Behalf Of Marcus Ihlar Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 7:39 AM To: ippm@ietf.org Subject: [ippm] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options Hello IPPM, This email starts a Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-op= tions. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options-06<= https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatra= cker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options-06&data=3D04= %7C01%7Chaoyu.song%40futurewei.com%7C8895882824fd43c501e508d9c1736d28%7C0fe= e8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637753523788355875%7CUnknown%7CTWFp= bGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%= 7C1000&sdata=3DYrK0mXHkK2thhO29ogOryETZZifwDR%2BE8VS%2FXV3%2FmA4%3D&reserve= d=3D0> Please provide feedback by replying to this email with your reviews and if = you think this document is ready to progress, by Friday, January 14. Best Regards, Marcus & Tommy --_000_BY3PR13MB4787263F186ADD2D76B8DE679A449BY3PR13MB4787namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hi IPPM and 6MAN,

     

    After reading the draft, I have one question. My und= erstanding is that the proposed approach basically uses IP-in-IP encapsulat= ion and encapsulates the IOAM option in the outer IPv6 header. While the in= -band measurement is intended for the inner IPv6 packet, I’m concerned on how the requirement C1 can b= e met. For example, I’m not sure how the forwarding and ECMP can beha= ve identically with and without the outer IPv6 header (i.e., for the overla= y and underlay networks).

     

    Thanks,

    Haoyu

     

    From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> O= n Behalf Of Marcus Ihlar
    Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 7:39 AM
    To: ippm@ietf.org
    Subject: [ippm] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options

     

    Hello IPPM,

    This email starts a Working Group Last Call on draft= -ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options.

     

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/do= c/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options/

    https://datatracker.ie= tf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options-06

     

    Please provide feedback by replying to this email wi= th your reviews and if you think this document is ready to progress, by Friday, January 14.

     

    Best Regards,

    Marcus & Tommy

    --_000_BY3PR13MB4787263F186ADD2D76B8DE679A449BY3PR13MB4787namp_-- From nobody Wed Dec 29 17:27:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44BC73A0800; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 17:27:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.038 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.038 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.559, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6rhEBaXOTZq7; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 17:26:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x12f.google.com (mail-il1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B754D3A07FD; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 17:26:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id y16so17793619ilq.8; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 17:26:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=eiQA68y46th0+k4+JQyhuPJE0dn+xOppYjbYUI3T4zM=; b=pRnDV6otKVMHOZljxCy5M6w9AzzHyWozrCBRGP2nlCm93rCDRhUQGHRPuhhiDfddDs 3tDgohFueqMRI7Y666W/jGMsX0AniUyRRypHMpM7N0U3nKp0oZVYL7/JvdPO49Sv3QNF QZ87cOSZx5MDB4w1abXzfOgyGAEbM/vlAYfR0qhYcFMHA7XnGR59TBbwMd6IBU41FZ7o Z70bvh6W+crN0msOS3SrQWBRb5JvIR978oZveaBYmBO7gmYCg8COfmmosd0067GEhvh7 65inQI1ZMLoYDNYSskJ7BrmFFS4AbXgpfNSR8icULAhQjuFal3xMcTUCT3V6W8B3ciSK nnhA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=eiQA68y46th0+k4+JQyhuPJE0dn+xOppYjbYUI3T4zM=; b=Q/ROySA3WPfjmt/ElRpJJmXJG9bUOuFIP5vNd9EptbwVcw7ThmbwlM1GVh4wFnGeZq HyVDcySzqZSS/LkM4aK0pBCiLGBZWCMaMDVfufSBlZMup753TW51X5EK/Zh76Kh66W3S FuU41ztYmhfQ9tS9g9MzwY/98WuZM987jYMoF9X4YJo68CIjlOkwOhclclew/o5ZOF23 ebzvjJXrU0WCUBVr20gaJAZEkS19zr6jSCuarYhx7V9d9VUVACZym79cyNeWUqQAmfiQ oDKg2bZOdRhJWsL8nltBSlFRM2ZNxF/Rgj5M1KpBFH6kiro5n0wN4auTm1pqvpEO5QcZ xX+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531845EVDPU7J7BdJdY6pwjMPBziozmALxnLCLvVBhOspc+YUZiN Ia3xxZRk3wNbxar+O9vSs6U3VA5ejJgWvKmQL14= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz+XHvC5FAFsIJaRvOJ85gLqHA8i2mc5WNE6NyBSHm3UbH2LpgPPIC2qKuYBjHHKSVQqC4G12iZnJBzOsTSizU= X-Received: by 2002:a92:8747:: with SMTP id d7mr12796852ilm.203.1640827613523; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 17:26:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 12:26:27 +1100 Message-ID: To: Haoyu Song Cc: Marcus Ihlar , "ippm@ietf.org" , 6man Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 01:27:01 -0000 On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 at 08:30, Haoyu Song wrote: > > Hi IPPM and 6MAN, > > > > After reading the draft, I have one question. My understanding is that th= e proposed approach basically uses IP-in-IP encapsulation and encapsulates = the IOAM option in the outer IPv6 header. While the in-band measurement is = intended for the inner IPv6 packet, I=E2=80=99m concerned on how the requir= ement C1 can be met. For example, I=E2=80=99m not sure how the forwarding a= nd ECMP can behave identically with and without the outer IPv6 header (i.e.= , for the overlay and underlay networks). > I think this is another example of where thinking IP-in-IP is something special and different makes things confusing. "IP tunnelling" is no more than a link-layer encapsulation. An "IP tunnel" is a virtual layer 2 point-to-point link. Original IPv6 packet forwarding through the IOAM domain would still use information in the original packet (DA minimum, and whatever else is considered for ECMP). The addition of the encapsulated updated IOAM information and the outer IP header to get it to the next hop occurs after that, as the packet goes down to the link-layer when link-layer encapsulation occurs. IOAM conceptually occurs at "layer 2.5". Since the IOAM domain is contiguous IPv6 nodes, meaning they're all link-layer adjacent, imagine instead using bare Ethernet to carry the IOAM information to the next IOAM hop, with the IOAM information added when the original IPv6 packet is passed down for link-layer encapsulation: Packet With IOAM: [Ethernet] - [IOAM] - [original IPv6 packet A] Packet Without IOAM: [Ethernet] - [original IPv6 packet A] Now substitute [Outer IPv6] for [Ethernet] above. Except, don't do that often, it is far less confusing with "IP tunnels" if you imagine the link-layer encapsulation format is a typical layer 2 frame different from the original link-layer payload IPv6 packet. (I've started to think using native Ethernet as above would be better when possible for IOAM instead of IPv6-in-IPv6 - draft-weis-ippm-ioam-eth-04 defines an Ethertype. IPv6-in-IPv6 could be used when there is no native link-layer type field defined to carry IOAM e.g. [Bluetooth]-[IPv6]-[IOAM]-[original IPv6 packet A]). Regards, Mark. > > > Thanks, > > Haoyu > > > > From: ippm On Behalf Of Marcus Ihlar > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 7:39 AM > To: ippm@ietf.org > Subject: [ippm] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options > > > > Hello IPPM, > > This email starts a Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-= options. > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options/ > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options-0= 6 > > > > Please provide feedback by replying to this email with your reviews and i= f you think this document is ready to progress, by Friday, January 14. > > > > Best Regards, > > Marcus & Tommy > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed Dec 29 18:18:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 253443A09AD for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 18:18:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CTE_8BIT_MISMATCH=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T9MSv1eKIWys for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 18:18:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxhk.zte.com.cn (mxhk.zte.com.cn [63.216.63.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9490A3A09AC for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 18:18:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mse-fl2.zte.com.cn (unknown [10.30.14.239]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mxhk.zte.com.cn (FangMail) with ESMTPS id 4JPX4838sYz7jYM6; Thu, 30 Dec 2021 10:18:00 +0800 (CST) Received: from njxapp01.zte.com.cn ([10.41.132.200]) by mse-fl2.zte.com.cn with SMTP id 1BU2HrV8087221; Thu, 30 Dec 2021 10:17:53 +0800 (GMT-8) (envelope-from xiao.min2@zte.com.cn) Received: from mapi (njxapp02[null]) by mapi (Zmail) with MAPI id mid201; Thu, 30 Dec 2021 10:17:53 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 10:17:53 +0800 (CST) X-Zmail-TransId: 2afa61cd16d1df49e65d X-Mailer: Zmail v1.0 Message-ID: <202112301017532346647@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: References: 202112101500302348450@zte.com.cn, 202112291615025234000@zte.com.cn, CY4PR11MB16720D89F508786D1FD63EC7DA449@CY4PR11MB1672.namprd11.prod.outlook.com Mime-Version: 1.0 From: To: Cc: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-MAIL: mse-fl2.zte.com.cn 1BU2HrV8087221 X-Fangmail-Gw-Spam-Type: 0 X-FangMail-Miltered: at cgslv5.04-192.168.250.137.novalocal with ID 61CD16D8.000 by FangMail milter! X-FangMail-Envelope: 1640830680/4JPX4838sYz7jYM6/61CD16D8.000/10.30.14.239/[10.30.14.239]/mse-fl2.zte.com.cn/ X-Fangmail-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-Fangmail-MID-QID: 61CD16D8.000/4JPX4838sYz7jYM6 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] =?utf-8?q?Progressing=C2=A0draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-stat?= =?utf-8?q?e?= X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 02:18:09 -0000 Hi Frank, Please see inline... Best Regards, Xiao Min ------------------原始邮件------------------ 发件人：FrankBrockners(fbrockne) 收件人：肖敏10093570; 抄送人：ippm@ietf.org;tpauly@apple.com; 日 期 ：2021年12月29日 18:42 主 题 ：RE: Re:[ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state Hi Xiao Min, Please see inline... > -----Original Message----- > From: xiao.min2@zte.com.cn > Sent: Wednesday, 29 December 2021 09:15 > To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > Cc: ippm@ietf.org; tpauly@apple.com > Subject: Re:[ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state > > Hi Frank, > > Thanks for replying to my email during your holiday season. > Please see inline ("XM>>>"). > > Best Regards, > Xiao Min > ------------------原始邮件------------------ > 发件人：FrankBrockners(fbrockne) > 收件人：肖敏10093570; > 抄送人：ippm@ietf.org;tpauly@apple.com; > 日 期 ：2021年12月28日 23:21 > 主 题 ：RE: Re:[ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state Hi Xiao Min, > Please see inline ("...FB") > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xiao.min2@zte.com.cn > > Sent: Monday, 20 December 2021 03:01 > > To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > > Cc: ippm@ietf.org; tpauly@apple.com > > Subject: Re:[ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state > > > > Hi Frank, > > > > Thank you for the quick reply. > > I believe you've provided your answer to my question implicitly, > > however what I requested is a clear conclusion, on both the mailing > > list and the draft-ietf-ippm- ioam-deployment. > > If I understand you correctly this time, you meant that the IOAM > > deployment must include a centralized controller or network manager or > > similar, > ..FB: Let me restate what I said below: The current IOAM drafts assume that > IOAM is deployed in a limited domain (RFC8799), also called controlled domain, > i.e., a deployment where an operator does have control over the nodes in the > network and their configuration. IMHO the use of the term "controller" does not > help the discussion, because "controller" means different things to different > people. The key aspect is that in a limited/controlled domain, the operator has > control over the nodes in the limited domain and their configuration. > XM>>> In a limited domain, the operator has control over the nodes in the > limited domain and their configuration, doesn't mean there must be a network > entity (e.g. controller or network manager or similar) which has control over the > nodes in the limited domain and their configuration, is my understanding correct > or not? ..FB: The operator has control over the nodes of the limited domain - i.e., the operator is the entity that owns the control of the network. Operators use a variety of tools and methods to operationalize the control. From what I know, there is no crisp definition of how the control is operationalized - and TBH, it would be quite challenging to create a comprehensive list, which would include all types of approaches to configure and operate devices. XM-2>>> To be more specific, in a limited domain, except for human being, is there must be a single network entity which has control over all the nodes and their configuration? > Wrt/ DEX: On top of the ability to control the nodes and their configuration, DEX > requires you to have a solution in place which allows you to retrieve, ingest, > process, and correlate per-packet IOAM data from every node in the limited > domain. This requirement to retrieve, ingest, process, and correlate per-packet > IOAM data from every node in the limited domain is specific to the DEX IOAM- > Option-Type and not required by the other IOAM-Option-Types. For example, > the two IOAM Trace-Option-Types automatically correlate the information from > the different nodes by assembling the info in the node-list array while the packet > traverses the network. > XM>>> This requirement to retrieve, ingest, process, and correlate per-packet > IOAM data from every node in the limited domain is not required by some IOAM- > Option-Types, that means there may be a limited domain that doesn't meet the > requirement that there is a network entity (e.g. controller or network manager > or similar) which has direct connection to every node, is my understanding > correct or not? ..FB: The operator will have a way to control the nodes in the limited domain. I'm not sure what a "direct connection" is - but if you refer to "direct connection" as a means that allows the operator to access and configure the device, then yes, there would be a "direct connection". XM-2>>> To be more specific, in a limited domain, except for human being, is there must be a single network entity which has one-hop IP connection to every node? > What is required from my perspective for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state, is a > crisp definition of the target deployment environment draft-ietf-ippm-ioam- > conf-state targets and the personas acting in that deployment environment. In a > limited/controlled domain, we can assume that the operator knows the > configuration of the nodes. The problem definition of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam- > conf-state seems to be that "someone" who does not know the configuration of > the nodes in the deployment environment wants to retrieve the configuration of > the nodes. > XM>>> Let me give a simplified example of the target deployment > XM>>> environment and the personas acting in that deployment > XM>>> environment. Assuming that the limited domain is an IPv6 domain, > XM>>> specifically an enterprise campus using physical connections > XM>>> between devices (as described in section 4 of > XM>>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-17), the operator knows the > XM>>> configuration of every node within the enterprise campus, however > XM>>> there is no a network entity (e.g. controller or network manager > XM>>> or similar) that knows the configuration of every node. In order > XM>>> to deploy IOAM Pre-allocated Tracing, the operator instructs the > XM>>> IOAM encapsulating node to add IOAM header into data packets > XM>>> meeting a rule of DA+SA+Flow Label, through Command Line or SNMP > XM>>> or NETCONF or similar, the IOAM encapsulating node firstly does > XM>>> traceroute using DA+SA+Flow Label and secondly sends ICMPv6 Echo > XM>>> Request to every node discovered by traceroute, the IOAM transit > XM>>> and decapsulating nodes respond with ICMPv6 Echo Reply, and then > XM>>> the IOA > M encapsulating node knows what the IOAM header looks like, e.g. including > how many node data lists and how much space allocated for each node data list. > Is this example clear or not? ..FB: Thanks for the example. Unfortunately I don't really follow. If you assume a limited domain - which you do - then the operator has access to all the nodes in his network. The operator knows the configuration of the nodes, including the IOAM configuration of the nodes. Or in other terms, the operator would configure encap/decap/transit nodes according the objectives. Why would the operator would want to use ICMP time exceeded and echo replies, given that the operator knows the network and the configuration of the nodes? XM-2>>> There are mainly two reasons. The first one is that the operator might not know the transport path of data packet, draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state provides an *on-path* IOAM capabilities discovery mechanism; The second one is that the operator doesn't want to provision too much parameters for one feature, my take away from talking with some operators is that they like any mechanism that can reduce their burden of manual configuration. In a limited domain, the operator can even provision routing table at every node, getting rid of IGP and BGP, however the operator rarely does that way. Cheers, Frank > Cheers, Frank > > then I have > > a hard time trying to understand why four types of IOAM are needed in > > section 4 of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-deployment > > (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam- > > deployment#section-4). IMHO only one type of IOAM is necessary and > > enough, that's Direct Export IOAM described in section 4.4, would you > > please explain elaborately? > > > > Best Regards, > > Xiao Min > > ------------------原始邮件------------------ > > 发件人：FrankBrockners(fbrockne) > > 收件人：肖敏10093570; > > 抄送人：ippm@ietf.org;tpauly@apple.com; > > 日 期 ：2021年12月17日 17:47 > > 主 题 ：RE: Re:[ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state Hi Xiao > > Min, per > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data- > > 17#section-4, IOAM is focused on "limited domains" as defined in > > [RFC8799], which is per RFC 8799 the same as what is also referred to > > as a "controlled environment". Personally I understand "Controlled > > environment" as an environment where an operator does have control > > over the nodes in the network and their configuration, i.e., the > > operator has control over his nodes, knows what network elements he is > > dealing with and what the config of the nodes is. How this control is > > implemented - whether there is one or several "controllers" or > > "network managers" or similar - is an implementation detail IMHO. > > Cheers, Frank > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: xiao.min2@zte.com.cn > > > Sent: Friday, 17 December 2021 03:29 > > > To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > > > Cc: ippm@ietf.org; tpauly@apple.com > > > Subject: Re:[ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state > > > > > > Hi Frank, > > > > > > Thanks for your thorough review and thoughtful comments. > > > I apologize if I misinterpreted your mind. > > > Considering that your holiday season is coming, before digging into > > > technical details, I suggest that we discuss the IOAM deployment > > > environment > > first. > > > As you may have noticed while reading through > > > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf- state-02, in the introduction section it > > > says "A centralized controller which owns the enabled IOAM > > > capabilities of each IOAM device could be used in some IOAM > > > deployments. The IOAM encapsulating node can discover the enabled > > > IOAM capabilities infomation from the centralized controller, using, > > > for example, NETCONF/YANG, PCEP, or BGP. In the IOAM deployment > > > scenario where there is no centralized controller, NETCONF/YANG or > > > IGP may > > be used by the IOAM encapsulating node to discover these IOAM > > capabilities information." > > > I know you're the primary author of both IOAM-Data and > > > IOAM-Deployment documents, so I have a fundamental question to you: > > > Is the above statement correct or not? > > > More specifically, if you can confirm that "the IOAM deployment > > > scenario where there is no centralized controller" doesn't exist at > > > all, on both the mailing list and the IOAM-Deployment document, then > > > I suggest IPPM WG to abandon draft- ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state, that > > > would save the energy of the whole wg including you and me. > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > Xiao Min > > > ------------------原始邮件------------------ > > > 发件人：FrankBrockners(fbrockne) > > > 收件人：肖敏10093570;ippm@ietf.org; > > > 抄送人：Tommy Pauly; > > > 日 期 ：2021年12月16日 20:56 > > > 主 题 ：RE: [ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state Hi Xiao > > > Min, Thanks for posting draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state-02. I read > > > through the updated version and looked at the diff to the 01 version > > > (https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state- > > > 01&url2=draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state-02). Different from what you > > > state below, I don't see any of my comments reflected. > > > The two main points I mentioned in the last WG meeting were about > > > (a) alignment with draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang and (b) enhancements to > > > the security section, reflecting that the protocol you are defining > > > is a network management protocol, and needs to be secured as such. > > > More specifically: > > > * Alignment with draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang: > > > The IPPM WG is in the process of defining a YANG module for IOAM: > > > draft-ietf- ippm-ioam-yang. We should have a single, comprehensive > > > model for config information for IOAM. That model can then be > > > rendered into different transports (be it JSON, XML, or yet another > > > format - to then be carried over a e.g. ICMP in your case). Right > > > now draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state heads down a path of defining a > > > new set of management objects - many are similar to what > > > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang already defines, some they are less > > > comprehensive, some hint at additional information that > > > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang does not cover yet: E.g., you define a > > > "Pre-allocated Tracing Capabilities Object" where > > > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang has a "Preallocated Tracing Profile" > > > defined. You define ingress interface fields, which is information, > > > which is more comprehensively defined by the ioam-filter grouping. > > > You define specific fields to describe the timestamp format used by > > > a node, which is information that should be described as part of > > > the ioam-info container - and which is currently missing in > > > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam- > > yang; point well taken :-). It is interesting to note that > > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam- conf-state does not even reference draft-ietf- ippm- > ioam-yang. > > > From my perspective we should have one single data model for IOAM > > > configuration - and that is the YANG module defined in > > > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam- yang. Let's make sure that this model covers > > > all the information required to properly manage IOAM. Then > > > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state would be solely focused on defining > > > how that YANG module (from draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang) would be > > > rendered > > into e.g., ICMP as a carrier protocol. > > > * Security: Revision -02 does not seem to update the security section. > > > IMHO, section 6 on security considerations should be enhanced to > > > clearly articulate that we're dealing with very sensitive information. > > > Consider loaning from e.g., > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6241#section-9. As part of > > > the discussion, it would be good to see an explanation where you'd > > > expect draft- ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state to be used. Given the > > > discussion in the Introduction section, you seem to assume an > > > environment that does not have a central network management station > > > / controller in place. Or in other terms, you seem to target a > > > deployment, which isn't a limited domain per RFC 8799. In that case, > > > I would expect that we have normative language that requires the use > > > of strong > > authentication and encryption between the nodes (i.e., MUST use ICMP > > with AH and ESP..). > > > In addition to the above, I struggle to understand the "Operational > > > Guide" in section 4: Could you shed a bit more light on how you > > > expect things to work - and what a target deployment environment > > > would look like? It seems that you assume that you don't know the > > > network nor the destination addresses in your > > > network: Do you expect that you would do regular "ICMP echo sweeps" > > > in your network? Do you expect that, while doing the expanding ring > > > search, an ICMP time exceeded message would also carry the "IOAM > > > Capabilities Response Container Header", so that the capabilities > > > container would not only be carried in the echo reply message but > > > also in the > > time exceeded message? > > > Thanks, Frank > > > (BTW - Note that due to the upcoming holiday season, replies might > > > be > > delayed). > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: ippm On Behalf Of > > > > xiao.min2@zte.com.cn > > > > Sent: Friday, 10 December 2021 08:01 > > > > To: ippm@ietf.org > > > > Subject: [ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state > > > > > > > > Hi IPPM WG, > > > > > > > > The -02 version of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state has been posted. > > > > There are mainly two changes, one is on IOAM Tracing Capabilities > > > > Objects to make them applicable to ICMPv6 extensions, another one > > > > is on IOAM Proof-of- Transit Capabilities Object to make it > > > > aligned with the updated IOAM-Data document. > > > > Also note that I've had an offline discussion with wg chairs and > > > > Frank Brockners, my conclusion is that Frank's concern raised at > > > > IETF 112 has been addressed. If that's not the case, please speak up. > > > > With that said, I think this draft is ready for WGLC. > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Xiao Min > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > ippm mailing list > > > > ippm@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm From nobody Thu Dec 30 02:31:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C2153A0F40 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2021 02:31:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.596 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.596 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 93c04b89-6efd-491a-f4aa-08d9cbba6fbd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Dec 2021 17:33:04.5430 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: G7NUM/TDS20qQjva8H2eTbHHThTJ58BlSoFvQDJ9FRihx1J2LbL8tPB0s9WlYmtlJAG5T4/4kzSnpNbaBskDBg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CH0PR13MB5171 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 17:33:17 -0000 Hi Mark, Please see inline [HS]. Thanks, Haoyu -----Original Message----- From: Mark Smith =20 Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2021 5:26 PM To: Haoyu Song Cc: Marcus Ihlar ; ippm@ietf.= org; 6man Subject: Re: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 at 08:30, Haoyu Song wrote: > > Hi IPPM and 6MAN, > > > > After reading the draft, I have one question. My understanding is that th= e proposed approach basically uses IP-in-IP encapsulation and encapsulates = the IOAM option in the outer IPv6 header. While the in-band measurement is = intended for the inner IPv6 packet, I'm concerned on how the requirement C1= can be met. For example, I'm not sure how the forwarding and ECMP can beha= ve identically with and without the outer IPv6 header (i.e., for the overla= y and underlay networks). > I think this is another example of where thinking IP-in-IP is something spe= cial and different makes things confusing. "IP tunnelling" is no more than = a link-layer encapsulation. An "IP tunnel" is a virtual layer 2 point-to-point link. Original IPv6 packet forwarding through the IOAM domain would still use inf= ormation in the original packet (DA minimum, and whatever else is considere= d for ECMP). The addition of the encapsulated updated IOAM information and = the outer IP header to get it to the next hop occurs after that, as the pac= ket goes down to the link-layer when link-layer encapsulation occurs. IOAM = conceptually occurs at "layer 2.5". [HS] I'm still confused. The draft says "The source address of the outer I= Pv6 header is that of the IOAM encapsulating node. The destination address= of the outer IPv6 header is the same as the inner IPv6 destination addres= s". So to me it's not a link-layer encapsulation. It's a new packet differe= nt from the original one. If a router forwards packets only based on DA, th= at's fine. Otherwise, the forwarding behavior can be different. Do I miss s= omething here? Since the IOAM domain is contiguous IPv6 nodes, meaning they're all link-la= yer adjacent, imagine instead using bare Ethernet to carry the IOAM informa= tion to the next IOAM hop, with the IOAM information added when the origina= l IPv6 packet is passed down for link-layer encapsulation: Packet With IOAM: [Ethernet] - [IOAM] - [original IPv6 packet A] Packet Without IOAM: [Ethernet] - [original IPv6 packet A] Now substitute [Outer IPv6] for [Ethernet] above. Except, don't do that oft= en, it is far less confusing with "IP tunnels" if you imagine the link-laye= r encapsulation format is a typical layer 2 frame different from the origin= al link-layer payload IPv6 packet. (I've started to think using native Ethernet as above would be better when = possible for IOAM instead of IPv6-in-IPv6 - draft-weis-ippm-ioam-eth-04 defines an Ethertype. IPv6-in-IPv6 could be use= d when there is no native link-layer type field defined to carry IOAM e.g. = [Bluetooth]-[IPv6]-[IOAM]-[original IPv6 packet A]). Regards, Mark. > > > Thanks, > > Haoyu > > > > From: ippm On Behalf Of Marcus Ihlar > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 7:39 AM > To: ippm@ietf.org > Subject: [ippm] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options > > > > Hello IPPM, > > This email starts a Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-= options. > > > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdata > tracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options%2F&data > =3D04%7C01%7Chaoyu.song%40futurewei.com%7C095ac60a5eea46c2251608d9cb3376 > 85%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637764244169572611%7CU > nknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1ha > WwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=3DdEMKFMleDA31SVX9TxkCsGG6R9vmz%2FEPj > RrHAzvwecY%3D&reserved=3D0 > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdata > tracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options-06&a > mp;data=3D04%7C01%7Chaoyu.song%40futurewei.com%7C095ac60a5eea46c2251608d > 9cb337685%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637764244169572 > 611%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTi > I6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=3DwITIFHgBev%2BnPyfs73jKKjRaFG > 5alDMtv1gsqtantxM%3D&reserved=3D0 > > > > Please provide feedback by replying to this email with your reviews and i= f you think this document is ready to progress, by Friday, January 14. > > > > Best Regards, > > Marcus & Tommy > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests:=20 > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww. > ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fipv6&data=3D04%7C01%7Chaoyu.song%40f > uturewei.com%7C095ac60a5eea46c2251608d9cb337685%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c75 > 3a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C1%7C637764244169572611%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJW > IjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000& > amp;sdata=3Dr1766WzhOMQ7SE4q%2F6EtJkJexJ18xKLx4pCXsFoY8%2F8%3D&reser > ved=3D0 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Thu Dec 30 18:19:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8647C3A0894 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2021 18:19:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ctTCyABTH9RC for ; Thu, 30 Dec 2021 18:19:24 -0800 (PST) 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bUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiA+ID4gPiA+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGlu Zm8vaXBwbQ0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18N CmlwcG0gbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQppcHBtQGlldGYub3JnDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9t YWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lwcG0NCg== From nobody Fri Dec 31 00:31:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: ippm@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 706D83A1124 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 2021 00:31:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CTE_8BIT_MISMATCH=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, 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(GMT-8) (envelope-from xiao.min2@zte.com.cn) Received: from mapi (njxapp02[null]) by mapi (Zmail) with MAPI id mid201; Fri, 31 Dec 2021 16:30:14 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 16:30:14 +0800 (CST) X-Zmail-TransId: 2afa61cebf963495fffb X-Mailer: Zmail v1.0 Message-ID: <202112311630143875879@zte.com.cn> In-Reply-To: References: 202112101500302348450@zte.com.cn, 202112301017532346647@zte.com.cn, CY4PR11MB167203181720E542E61F8EB1DA459@CY4PR11MB1672.namprd11.prod.outlook.com Mime-Version: 1.0 From: To: Cc: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-MAIL: mse-fl1.zte.com.cn 1BV8UEG8082078 X-Fangmail-Gw-Spam-Type: 0 X-FangMail-Miltered: at cgslv5.04-192.168.250.137.novalocal with ID 61CEBFC3.000 by FangMail milter! X-FangMail-Envelope: 1640939459/4JQJJ344WBz7h5QH/61CEBFC3.000/192.168.251.13/[192.168.251.13]/mxct.zte.com.cn/ X-Fangmail-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-Fangmail-MID-QID: 61CEBFC3.000/4JQJJ344WBz7h5QH Archived-At: Subject: Re: [ippm] =?utf-8?q?Progressing=C2=A0draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-stat?= =?utf-8?q?e?= X-BeenThere: ippm@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF IP Performance Metrics Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2021 08:31:08 -0000 Hi Frank, Please see inline ("XM-3>>>"). Happy New Year to you and all IPPM folks! Best Regards, Xiao Min ------------------原始邮件------------------ 发件人：FrankBrockners(fbrockne) 收件人：肖敏10093570; 抄送人：ippm@ietf.org;tpauly@apple.com; 日 期 ：2021年12月30日 18:33 主 题 ：RE: Re:[ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state Hi Xiao Min, Please see inline... > -----Original Message----- > From: xiao.min2@zte.com.cn > Sent: Thursday, 30 December 2021 03:18 > To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > Cc: ippm@ietf.org; tpauly@apple.com > Subject: Re:[ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state > > Hi Frank, > > Please see inline... > > Best Regards, > Xiao Min > ------------------原始邮件------------------ > 发件人：FrankBrockners(fbrockne) > 收件人：肖敏10093570; > 抄送人：ippm@ietf.org;tpauly@apple.com; > 日 期 ：2021年12月29日 18:42 > 主 题 ：RE: Re:[ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state Hi Xiao Min, > Please see inline... > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xiao.min2@zte.com.cn > > Sent: Wednesday, 29 December 2021 09:15 > > To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > > Cc: ippm@ietf.org; tpauly@apple.com > > Subject: Re:[ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state > > > > Hi Frank, > > > > Thanks for replying to my email during your holiday season. > > Please see inline ("XM>>>"). > > > > Best Regards, > > Xiao Min > > ------------------原始邮件------------------ > > 发件人：FrankBrockners(fbrockne) > > 收件人：肖敏10093570; > > 抄送人：ippm@ietf.org;tpauly@apple.com; > > 日 期 ：2021年12月28日 23:21 > > 主 题 ：RE: Re:[ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state Hi Xiao > > Min, Please see inline ("...FB") > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: xiao.min2@zte.com.cn > > > Sent: Monday, 20 December 2021 03:01 > > > To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > > > Cc: ippm@ietf.org; tpauly@apple.com > > > Subject: Re:[ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state > > > > > > Hi Frank, > > > > > > Thank you for the quick reply. > > > I believe you've provided your answer to my question implicitly, > > > however what I requested is a clear conclusion, on both the mailing > > > list and the draft-ietf-ippm- ioam-deployment. > > > If I understand you correctly this time, you meant that the IOAM > > > deployment must include a centralized controller or network manager > > > or similar, > > ..FB: Let me restate what I said below: The current IOAM drafts assume > > that IOAM is deployed in a limited domain (RFC8799), also called > > controlled domain, i.e., a deployment where an operator does have > > control over the nodes in the network and their configuration. IMHO > > the use of the term "controller" does not help the discussion, because > > "controller" means different things to different people. The key > > aspect is that in a limited/controlled domain, the operator has control over the > nodes in the limited domain and their configuration. > > XM>>> In a limited domain, the operator has control over the nodes in > > XM>>> the > > limited domain and their configuration, doesn't mean there must be a > > network entity (e.g. controller or network manager or similar) which > > has control over the nodes in the limited domain and their > > configuration, is my understanding correct or not? > ..FB: The operator has control over the nodes of the limited domain - i.e., the > operator is the entity that owns the control of the network. Operators use a > variety of tools and methods to operationalize the control. From what I know, > there is no crisp definition of how the control is operationalized - and TBH, it > would be quite challenging to create a comprehensive list, which would include > all types of approaches to configure and operate devices. > XM-2>>> To be more specific, in a limited domain, except for human being, is > there must be a single network entity which has control over all the nodes and > their configuration? ..FB2: For the definition of a limited domain, it is best to simply refer to RFC 8799 :-). The main point is that a limited or controlled domain is one where you *know* your nodes and their config. I don't think that RFC 8799 lists a requirement for a single network entity that has control over all the nodes - and TBH, I don't think that it matters for the current discussion. XM-3>>> Thanks for your confirmation. The reason why I regarded it as a fundamental question is that if I got the counter confirmation, then I would suggest the IPPM WG to abandon draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state which triggered this discussion thread. > > Wrt/ DEX: On top of the ability to control the nodes and their > > configuration, DEX requires you to have a solution in place which > > allows you to retrieve, ingest, process, and correlate per-packet IOAM > > data from every node in the limited domain. This requirement to > > retrieve, ingest, process, and correlate per-packet IOAM data from > > every node in the limited domain is specific to the DEX IOAM- > > Option-Type and not required by the other IOAM-Option-Types. For > > example, the two IOAM Trace-Option-Types automatically correlate the > > information from the different nodes by assembling the info in the node-list > array while the packet traverses the network. > > XM>>> This requirement to retrieve, ingest, process, and correlate > > XM>>> per-packet > > IOAM data from every node in the limited domain is not required by > > some IOAM- Option-Types, that means there may be a limited domain that > > doesn't meet the requirement that there is a network entity (e.g. > > controller or network manager or similar) which has direct connection > > to every node, is my understanding correct or not? > ..FB: The operator will have a way to control the nodes in the limited domain. > I'm not sure what a "direct connection" is - but if you refer to "direct > connection" as a means that allows the operator to access and configure the > device, then yes, there would be a "direct connection". > XM-2>>> To be more specific, in a limited domain, except for human being, is > there must be a single network entity which has one-hop IP connection to every > node? ..FB2: See above. > > What is required from my perspective for > > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state, is a crisp definition of the target > > deployment environment draft-ietf-ippm-ioam- conf-state targets and > > the personas acting in that deployment environment. In a > > limited/controlled domain, we can assume that the operator knows the > > configuration of the nodes. The problem definition of > > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam- conf-state seems to be that "someone" who does > > not know the configuration of the nodes in the deployment environment > wants to retrieve the configuration of the nodes. > > XM>>> Let me give a simplified example of the target deployment > > XM>>> environment and the personas acting in that deployment > > XM>>> environment. Assuming that the limited domain is an IPv6 domain, > > XM>>> specifically an enterprise campus using physical connections > > XM>>> between devices (as described in section 4 of > > XM>>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-17), the operator knows the > > XM>>> configuration of every node within the enterprise campus, > > XM>>> however there is no a network entity (e.g. controller or network > > XM>>> manager or similar) that knows the configuration of every node. > > XM>>> In order to deploy IOAM Pre-allocated Tracing, the operator > > XM>>> instructs the IOAM encapsulating node to add IOAM header into > > XM>>> data packets meeting a rule of DA+SA+Flow Label, through Command > > XM>>> Line or SNMP or NETCONF or similar, the IOAM encapsulating node > > XM>>> firstly does traceroute using DA+SA+Flow Label and secondly > > XM>>> sends ICMPv6 Echo Request to every node discovered by > > XM>>> traceroute, the IOAM transit and decapsulating nodes respond > > XM>>> with ICMPv6 Echo Reply, and then the IOA > > M encapsulating node knows what the IOAM header looks like, e.g. > > including how many node data lists and how much space allocated for each > node data list. > > Is this example clear or not? > ..FB: Thanks for the example. Unfortunately I don't really follow. If you assume > a limited domain - which you do - then the operator has access to all the nodes > in his network. The operator knows the configuration of the nodes, including the > IOAM configuration of the nodes. Or in other terms, the operator would > configure encap/decap/transit nodes according the objectives. Why would the > operator would want to use ICMP time exceeded and echo replies, given that > the operator knows the network and the configuration of the nodes? > XM-2>>> There are mainly two reasons. The first one is that the operator might > not know the transport path of data packet, draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state > provides an *on-path* IOAM capabilities discovery mechanism; The second one > is that the operator doesn't want to provision too much parameters for one > feature, my take away from talking with some operators is that they like any > mechanism that can reduce their burden of manual configuration. In a limited > domain, the operator can even provision routing table at every node, getting rid > of IGP and BGP, however the operator rarely does that way. ..FB2: TBH, I'm not sure what you mean with "on-path" IOAM capability discovery. XM-3>>> The IOAM encapsulating node discovers IOAM capabilities of the nodes that are on the transport path of data packet to which IOAM header is added, not all nodes within the limited domain. Section 4 of your draft proposes to use an ICMP sweep to discover the nodes in the network. On top of that, a discovered node would expose a portion of its IOAM configuration as part of the response to the ICMP sweep. Do you call the fact that you're doing an expanding ring search "on-path"? With draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state, you still wouldn't know which acl/interface combinations IOAM is applied to, nor would you know which timestamp format a transit node uses. I.e., you're only discovering a subset of the IOAM capabilities - for what reason? Why wouldn't one discover all the capabilities - which would lead to the afore asked alignment with draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang? XM-3>>> I guess you misinterpret section 4 of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state, let me explain a bit more here. The mechanism defined in draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state is applied after the IOAM encapsulating node knows the ACL IOAM is applied to, not before that. Here a somewhat complicated thing is that, after the IOAM encapsulating node knows the ACL IOAM is applied to, its behavior differs between ICMPv6 and LSP Ping. If it's IPv6 domain, the IOAM encapsulating node does firsly traceroute and secondly IOAM capabilites discovery. If it's MPLS domain, the IOAM encapsulating node does traceroute and IOAM capabilities discovery synchronously. Furthermore, there is possibility that the IOAM encapsulating node has known the nodes on the path (e.g. by SR Policy), then the traceroute process can be omitted. With that said, you'll find draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state has nothing to do with draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang, they're orthogonal. There are some RFCs that define mechanisms of capabili ties discovery or OAM configuration, such as RFC 9088/9089 and RFC 7759, they don't refer to any YANG Models. In addition, could you elaborate how your approach would reduce the amount of "manual configuration" - compared to approaches that leverage draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang? XM-3>>> In the example I provided in my previous email, assuming the operator knows the transport path of data packet IOAM header is added to, the operator can input the parameters such as the number of node data lists and the bitmap of IOAM-Trace-Type manually, however draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state can help the operator to omit the mentioned manual configuration. All these questions point back to the original question of "what is the deployment environment that you have in mind?" and what is the associated problem that you're trying to solve. You seem to target a deployment, where the operator does not know all the nodes in the network, nor their configuration - but where at the same time, ICMP sweeps are feasible, and you have security associations available to all the nodes (to the nodes that you don't know), so that you can protect ICMP payload with ESP and AH. It would be good if you could add a paragraph to the draft that answers those questions clearly, ideally with a set of examples. XM-3>>> Please see above for the detailed explanation and let me know which part you think appropriate to be added to the draft. Cheers, Frank > Cheers, Frank > > Cheers, Frank > > > then I have > > > a hard time trying to understand why four types of IOAM are needed > > > in section 4 of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-deployment > > > (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam- > > > deployment#section-4). IMHO only one type of IOAM is necessary and > > > enough, that's Direct Export IOAM described in section 4.4, would > > > you please explain elaborately? > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > Xiao Min > > > ------------------原始邮件------------------ > > > 发件人：FrankBrockners(fbrockne) > > > 收件人：肖敏10093570; > > > 抄送人：ippm@ietf.org;tpauly@apple.com; > > > 日 期 ：2021年12月17日 17:47 > > > 主 题 ：RE: Re:[ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state Hi > > > Xiao Min, per > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data- > > > 17#section-4, IOAM is focused on "limited domains" as defined in > > > [RFC8799], which is per RFC 8799 the same as what is also referred > > > to as a "controlled environment". Personally I understand > > > "Controlled environment" as an environment where an operator does > > > have control over the nodes in the network and their configuration, > > > i.e., the operator has control over his nodes, knows what network > > > elements he is dealing with and what the config of the nodes is. How > > > this control is implemented - whether there is one or several > > > "controllers" or "network managers" or similar - is an implementation detail > IMHO. > > > Cheers, Frank > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: xiao.min2@zte.com.cn > > > > Sent: Friday, 17 December 2021 03:29 > > > > To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) > > > > Cc: ippm@ietf.org; tpauly@apple.com > > > > Subject: Re:[ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state > > > > > > > > Hi Frank, > > > > > > > > Thanks for your thorough review and thoughtful comments. > > > > I apologize if I misinterpreted your mind. > > > > Considering that your holiday season is coming, before digging > > > > into technical details, I suggest that we discuss the IOAM > > > > deployment environment > > > first. > > > > As you may have noticed while reading through > > > > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf- state-02, in the introduction section > > > > it says "A centralized controller which owns the enabled IOAM > > > > capabilities of each IOAM device could be used in some IOAM > > > > deployments. The IOAM encapsulating node can discover the enabled > > > > IOAM capabilities infomation from the centralized controller, > > > > using, for example, NETCONF/YANG, PCEP, or BGP. In the IOAM > > > > deployment scenario where there is no centralized controller, > > > > NETCONF/YANG or IGP may > > > be used by the IOAM encapsulating node to discover these IOAM > > > capabilities information." > > > > I know you're the primary author of both IOAM-Data and > > > > IOAM-Deployment documents, so I have a fundamental question to you: > > > > Is the above statement correct or not? > > > > More specifically, if you can confirm that "the IOAM deployment > > > > scenario where there is no centralized controller" doesn't exist > > > > at all, on both the mailing list and the IOAM-Deployment document, > > > > then I suggest IPPM WG to abandon draft- > > > > ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state, that would save the energy of the whole wg > including you and me. > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Xiao Min > > > > ------------------原始邮件------------------ > > > > 发件人：FrankBrockners(fbrockne) > > > > 收件人：肖敏10093570;ippm@ietf.org; > > > > 抄送人：Tommy Pauly; > > > > 日 期 ：2021年12月16日 20:56 > > > > 主 题 ：RE: [ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state Hi > > > > Xiao Min, Thanks for posting draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state-02. I > > > > read through the updated version and looked at the diff to the 01 > > > > version > > > > (https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state > > > > - 01&url2=draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state-02). Different from what > > > > you state below, I don't see any of my comments reflected. > > > > The two main points I mentioned in the last WG meeting were about > > > > (a) alignment with draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang and (b) enhancements > > > > to the security section, reflecting that the protocol you are > > > > defining is a network management protocol, and needs to be secured as > such. > > > > More specifically: > > > > * Alignment with draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang: > > > > The IPPM WG is in the process of defining a YANG module for IOAM: > > > > draft-ietf- ippm-ioam-yang. We should have a single, comprehensive > > > > model for config information for IOAM. That model can then be > > > > rendered into different transports (be it JSON, XML, or yet > > > > another format - to then be carried over a e.g. ICMP in your > > > > case). Right now draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state heads down a path > > > > of defining a new set of management objects - many are similar to > > > > what draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang already defines, some they are less > > > > comprehensive, some hint at additional information that > > > > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang does not cover yet: E.g., you define a > > > > "Pre-allocated Tracing Capabilities Object" where > > > > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang has a "Preallocated Tracing Profile" > > > > defined. You define ingress interface fields, which is > > > > information, which is more comprehensively defined by the ioam-filter > grouping. > > > > You define specific fields to describe the timestamp format used > > > > by a node, which is information that should be described as part > > > > of the ioam-info container - and which is currently missing in > > > > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam- > > > yang; point well taken :-). It is interesting to note that > > > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam- conf-state does not even reference draft-ietf- > > > ippm- > > ioam-yang. > > > > From my perspective we should have one single data model for IOAM > > > > configuration - and that is the YANG module defined in > > > > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam- yang. Let's make sure that this model covers > > > > all the information required to properly manage IOAM. Then > > > > draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state would be solely focused on > > > > defining how that YANG module (from draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-yang) > > > > would be rendered > > > into e.g., ICMP as a carrier protocol. > > > > * Security: Revision -02 does not seem to update the security section. > > > > IMHO, section 6 on security considerations should be enhanced to > > > > clearly articulate that we're dealing with very sensitive information. > > > > Consider loaning from e.g., > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc6241#section-9. As part > > > > of the discussion, it would be good to see an explanation where > > > > you'd expect draft- ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state to be used. Given > > > > the discussion in the Introduction section, you seem to assume an > > > > environment that does not have a central network management > > > > station / controller in place. Or in other terms, you seem to > > > > target a deployment, which isn't a limited domain per RFC 8799. In > > > > that case, I would expect that we have normative language that > > > > requires the use of strong > > > authentication and encryption between the nodes (i.e., MUST use ICMP > > > with AH and ESP..). > > > > In addition to the above, I struggle to understand the > > > > "Operational Guide" in section 4: Could you shed a bit more light > > > > on how you expect things to work - and what a target deployment > > > > environment would look like? It seems that you assume that you > > > > don't know the network nor the destination addresses in your > > > > network: Do you expect that you would do regular "ICMP echo sweeps" > > > > in your network? Do you expect that, while doing the expanding > > > > ring search, an ICMP time exceeded message would also carry the > > > > "IOAM Capabilities Response Container Header", so that the > > > > capabilities container would not only be carried in the echo reply > > > > message but also in the > > > time exceeded message? > > > > Thanks, Frank > > > > (BTW - Note that due to the upcoming holiday season, replies might > > > > be > > > delayed). > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: ippm On Behalf Of > > > > > xiao.min2@zte.com.cn > > > > > Sent: Friday, 10 December 2021 08:01 > > > > > To: ippm@ietf.org > > > > > Subject: [ippm] Progressing draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state > > > > > > > > > > Hi IPPM WG, > > > > > > > > > > The -02 version of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-conf-state has been posted. > > > > > There are mainly two changes, one is on IOAM Tracing > > > > > Capabilities Objects to make them applicable to ICMPv6 > > > > > extensions, another one is on IOAM Proof-of- Transit > > > > > Capabilities Object to make it aligned with the updated IOAM-Data > document. > > > > > Also note that I've had an offline discussion with wg chairs and > > > > > Frank Brockners, my conclusion is that Frank's concern raised at > > > > > IETF 112 has been addressed. If that's not the case, please speak up. > > > > > With that said, I think this draft is ready for WGLC. > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > Xiao Min > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > ippm mailing list > > > > > ippm@ietf.org > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm