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Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-srpm-03.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Simple TWAMP (STAMP) Extensions for Segment Routing Networks
        Authors         : Rakesh Gandhi
                          Clarence Filsfils
                          Daniel Voyer
                          Mach(Guoyi) Chen
                          Bart Janssens
                          Richard Foote
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-srpm-03.txt
	Pages           : 16
	Date            : 2022-02-02

Abstract:
   Segment Routing (SR) leverages the source routing paradigm.  SR is
   applicable to both Multiprotocol Label Switching (SR-MPLS) and IPv6
   (SRv6) forwarding planes.  This document specifies RFC 8762 (Simple
   Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (STAMP)) extensions for SR
   networks, for both SR-MPLS and SRv6 forwarding planes by augmenting
   the optional extensions defined in RFC 8972.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-srpm/

There is also an HTML version available at:
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-srpm-03.html

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-stamp-srpm-03


Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts



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Subject: [ippm] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC7679 (6831)
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The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7679,
"A One-Way Delay Metric for IP Performance Metrics (IPPM)".

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6831

--------------------------------------
Type: Editorial
Reported by: Nikolai Malykh <nmalykh@ieee.org>

Section: 7

Original Text
-------------
   The text above constitutes a revision to RFC 2769, which is now an
   Internet Standard.  This section tracks the changes from [RFC2679].

Corrected Text
--------------
   The text above constitutes a revision to RFC 2679, which is now an
   Internet Standard.  This section tracks the changes from [RFC2679].

Notes
-----
Typo in RFC number (2769 instead 2679).

Instructions:
-------------
This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party  
can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. 

--------------------------------------
RFC7679 (draft-ietf-ippm-2679-bis-05)
--------------------------------------
Title               : A One-Way Delay Metric for IP Performance Metrics (IPPM)
Publication Date    : January 2016
Author(s)           : G. Almes, S. Kalidindi, M. Zekauskas, A. Morton, Ed.
Category            : INTERNET STANDARD
Source              : IP Performance Measurement
Area                : Transport
Stream              : IETF
Verifying Party     : IESG


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Subject: Re: [ippm] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC7679 (6831)
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It certainly looks right.  Comments?
	-- Guy

On 2/3/22 2:53 AM, RFC Errata System wrote:
> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7679,
> "A One-Way Delay Metric for IP Performance Metrics (IPPM)".
> 
> --------------------------------------
> You may review the report below and at:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6831__;!!KwNVnqRv!QZ9qmmdk31TxjrrHqvulDG-m_vzQV1PTwp0-qU2W8m0HMg5rMFig_MdhugMOTg$
> 
> --------------------------------------
> Type: Editorial
> Reported by: Nikolai Malykh <nmalykh@ieee.org>
> 
> Section: 7
> 
> Original Text
> -------------
>     The text above constitutes a revision to RFC 2769, which is now an
>     Internet Standard.  This section tracks the changes from [RFC2679].
> 
> Corrected Text
> --------------
>     The text above constitutes a revision to RFC 2679, which is now an
>     Internet Standard.  This section tracks the changes from [RFC2679].
> 
> Notes
> -----
> Typo in RFC number (2769 instead 2679).
> 
> Instructions:
> -------------
> This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
> use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
> rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party
> can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.
> 
> --------------------------------------
> RFC7679 (draft-ietf-ippm-2679-bis-05)
> --------------------------------------
> Title               : A One-Way Delay Metric for IP Performance Metrics (IPPM)
> Publication Date    : January 2016
> Author(s)           : G. Almes, S. Kalidindi, M. Zekauskas, A. Morton, Ed.
> Category            : INTERNET STANDARD
> Source              : IP Performance Measurement
> Area                : Transport
> Stream              : IETF
> Verifying Party     : IESG
> 


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From: "MORTON JR., AL" <acmorton@att.com>
To: RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>
CC: "nmalykh@ieee.org" <nmalykh@ieee.org>, "almes@acm.org" <almes@acm.org>, "skalidindi@ixiacom.com" <skalidindi@ixiacom.com>, "matt@internet2.edu" <matt@internet2.edu>, "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC7679 (6831)
Thread-Index: AQHYGNNFQEUwH6lFdUaJFsGU1mSk86yCAO+w
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2022 16:16:30 +0000
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References: <20220203075359.8DE7EEB6C8@rfc-editor.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/U07mNBe9kzkT3pneYjLIOeuYrrw>
Subject: Re: [ippm] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC7679 (6831)
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To: "MORTON JR., AL" <acmorton@att.com>, RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>
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From: Guy Almes <galmes@tamu.edu>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC7679 (6831)
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Al,
   Perfect; thanks!
	-- Guy

On 2/3/22 11:16 AM, MORTON JR., AL wrote:
> It's a typo, corrected 2679 text was intended.  Verified.
> Al
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 3, 2022 2:54 AM
>> To: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org
>> Cc: nmalykh@ieee.org; almes@acm.org; skalidindi@ixiacom.com;
>> matt@internet2.edu; MORTON JR., AL <acmorton@att.com>; ippm@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC7679 (6831)
>> 
>> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7679,
>> "A One-Way Delay Metric for IP Performance Metrics (IPPM)".
>> 
>> --------------------------------------
>> You may review the report below and at:
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.rfc-
>> editor.org/errata/eid6831__;!!BhdT!2Gg--BgwtTvgianITYMUhFqHlpDX-eU-XdP-
>> mg40Tuc_V1Junse7nVKqkwYC$
>> 
>> --------------------------------------
>> Type: Editorial
>> Reported by: Nikolai Malykh <nmalykh@ieee.org>
>> 
>> Section: 7
>> 
>> Original Text
>> -------------
>>    The text above constitutes a revision to RFC 2769, which is now an
>>    Internet Standard.  This section tracks the changes from [RFC2679].
>> 
>> Corrected Text
>> --------------
>>    The text above constitutes a revision to RFC 2679, which is now an
>>    Internet Standard.  This section tracks the changes from [RFC2679].
>> 
>> Notes
>> -----
>> Typo in RFC number (2769 instead 2679).
>> 
>> Instructions:
>> -------------
>> This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
>> use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
>> rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party
>> can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.
>> 
>> --------------------------------------
>> RFC7679 (draft-ietf-ippm-2679-bis-05)
>> --------------------------------------
>> Title               : A One-Way Delay Metric for IP Performance Metrics (IPPM)
>> Publication Date    : January 2016
>> Author(s)           : G. Almes, S. Kalidindi, M. Zekauskas, A. Morton, Ed.
>> Category            : INTERNET STANDARD
>> Source              : IP Performance Measurement
>> Area                : Transport
>> Stream              : IETF
>> Verifying Party     : IESG
> 


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From: "MORTON JR., AL" <acmorton@att.com>
To: Guy Almes <galmes@tamu.edu>, RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>
CC: "nmalykh@ieee.org" <nmalykh@ieee.org>, "almes@acm.org" <almes@acm.org>, "skalidindi@ixiacom.com" <skalidindi@ixiacom.com>, "matt@internet2.edu" <matt@internet2.edu>, "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC7679 (6831)
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Subject: [ippm] [Errata Verified] RFC7679 (6831)
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The following errata report has been verified for RFC7679,
"A One-Way Delay Metric for IP Performance Metrics (IPPM)". 

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6831

--------------------------------------
Status: Verified
Type: Editorial

Reported by: Nikolai Malykh <nmalykh@ieee.org>
Date Reported: 2022-02-03
Verified by: RFC Editor  

Section: 7

Original Text
-------------
   The text above constitutes a revision to RFC 2769, which is now an
   Internet Standard.  This section tracks the changes from [RFC2679].

Corrected Text
--------------
   The text above constitutes a revision to RFC 2679, which is now an
   Internet Standard.  This section tracks the changes from [RFC2679].

Notes
-----
Typo in RFC number (2769 instead 2679).

--------------------------------------
RFC7679 (draft-ietf-ippm-2679-bis-05)
--------------------------------------
Title               : A One-Way Delay Metric for IP Performance Metrics (IPPM)
Publication Date    : January 2016
Author(s)           : G. Almes, S. Kalidindi, M. Zekauskas, A. Morton, Ed.
Category            : INTERNET STANDARD
Source              : IP Performance Measurement
Area                : Transport
Stream              : IETF


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 in the early days because of poorly implemented load-balancing in the sili=
con, it was often the case that with odd number of constituents we=E2=80=99=
d see a rather uneven distribution.</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Most of these i=
ssues have been fixed in the last 3 years, these days - it is very common (=
especially in DC) to use a LAG as an operational construct and =C2=A0provis=
ion a LAG with a single link, so the future upgrade doesn=E2=80=99t require=
 changes to L3 infra.</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal>I don=E2=80=99t=E2=80=99 think there a need to update the draw=
ing nor to explicitly mentioning =C2=A0=E2=80=9Cpower of two=E2=80=9D assum=
ption anywhere in the text .</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Cheers,</span><o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Jeff <o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div style=3D'mso-el=
ement:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.=
0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'border:none;padding:0in'><b>=
From: </b><a href=3D"mailto:zhoutianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org">Tian=
ran Zhou</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Monday, January 24, 2022 5:06 PM<br><b>To: </b=
><a href=3D"mailto:haoyu.song@futurewei.com">Haoyu Song</a>; <a href=3D"mai=
lto:zhoutianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org">Tianran Zhou</a>; <a href=3D=
"mailto:ippm@ietf.org">IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)</a><br><b>Subject: </b>=
Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt<=
/p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi =
Haoyu,</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Th=
anks very much for your comments. Your perspective is correct.</p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal>I will revise the document in the next version.</p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Best,</p><p class=3DMso=
Normal>Tianran</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal>-----Original Message-----</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>From: ippm [mailto=
:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoyu Song</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sen=
t: Tuesday, January 25, 2022 1:07 AM</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: Tianran Zh=
ou &lt;zhoutianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ie=
tf.org) &lt;ippm@ietf.org&gt;</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Subject: Re: [ippm] N=
ew Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt</p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>WG, </p><p class=3DM=
soNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I think the scenario for=
 LAG performance measurement is practical and the method is sound, so I sup=
port this work.</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>For Figure 1, I think usually for l=
oad balancing with hashing, the number of links of a LAG would be power of =
two. </p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Bes=
t,</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Haoyu Song</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>-----Original Message-----</p><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal>From: ippm &lt;ippm-bounces@ietf.org&gt; On Behalf Of Tianran Zhou</p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2022 10:23 PM</p><p class=3D=
MsoNormal>To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) &lt;ippm@ietf.org&gt;</p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal>Subject: [ippm] FW: New Version Notification for draft-li-ipp=
m-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal>Hi WG,</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal>We think this is an useful work on adapting OWAMP/TWAMP in LAG=
 performance measurement.</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>We updated this draft bas=
ed on the comments from the meeting discussion and mailing list.</p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal>Thanks for all the suggestions.</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>More =
reviews and comments are welcome.</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Cheers,</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Tianran</p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>-----Original Messa=
ge-----</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:inte=
rnet-drafts@ietf.org] </p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sent: Monday, January 24, 20=
22 2:17 PM</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>To: Greg Mirsky &lt;gregimirsky@gmail.co=
m&gt;; Guo Jun &lt;guo.jun2@zte.com.cn&gt;; Jun Guo &lt;guo.jun2@zte.com.cn=
&gt;; Rakesh Gandhi &lt;rgandhi@cisco.com&gt;; Tianran Zhou &lt;zhoutianran=
@huawei.com&gt;; Zhenqiang Li &lt;li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com&gt;</p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal>Subject: New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-=
lag-02.txt</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>A new version of I-D, draft-li-=
ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>has been successfully sub=
mitted by Tianran Zhou and posted to the IETF repository.</p><p class=3DMso=
Normal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Name:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 draft-li-ip=
pm-otwamp-on-lag</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Revision:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 02</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Title:=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 One-way/Two-way Active Measurement Protocol Extens=
ions for Performance Measurement on LAG</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Document da=
te:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2022-01-24<=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Group:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Individual Submission</p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal>Pages:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 13</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>URL:=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://nam11.safeli=
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%2Fdraft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt&amp;amp;data=3D04%7C01%7Chaoyu.song%4=
0futurewei.com%7Ca16115736bab48d99c2f08d9df020bed%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1=
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8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637786022170908705%7CUnknown%7CTWFpb=
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C3000&amp;amp;sdata=3DUYUXVf0BvrCuH20ydOjxCI26KjgpAopEIV40%2BqjuxKY%3D&amp;=
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mp;data=3D04%7C01%7Chaoyu.song%40futurewei.com%7Ca16115736bab48d99c2f08d9df=
020bed%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637786022170908705%7CUn=
known%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJ=
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otection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Frfcdiff%3Furl2%3Dd=
raft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02&amp;amp;data=3D04%7C01%7Chaoyu.song%40futurew=
ei.com%7Ca16115736bab48d99c2f08d9df020bed%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fed=
c%7C1%7C0%7C637786022170908705%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAi=
LCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;amp;sdata=3DNPJcF=
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><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Abstract:</=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=C2=A0=C2=A0 This document defines extensions to One=
-way Active Measurement</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=C2=A0=C2=A0 Protocol (OWAM=
P), and Two-way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP) to</p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal>=C2=A0=C2=A0 implement performance measurement on every member link of =
a Link</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=C2=A0=C2=A0 Aggregation Group (LAG).=C2=A0 =
Knowing the measured metrics of each member</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 link of a LAG enables operators to enforce the performance based</p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal>=C2=A0=C2=A0 traffic steering policy across the member=
 links.</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 </p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The IETF Secretariat</p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal>_______________________________________________</p><p clas=
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a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637786022170908705%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb=
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y></html>=


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From: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran=40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)" <ippm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt
Thread-Index: AQHYEOoOM8BWGUje9EistfVjjUvI2qxxspuggACz9nCAAIZf8IAQ4y6AgAAAnVA=
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2022 19:02:27 +0000
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Hi Haoyu,

Yes, comparing even and odd LAGs - deviations from ideal load-sharing are ve=
ry similar.
Obviously - there=E2=80=99s no need for load-balancing across a single link ;=
-)

Cheers,
Jeff

> On Feb 4, 2022, at 11:02, Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com> wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> Hi Jeff,
> =20
> It=E2=80=99s interesting to know. Any idea how the load is balanced on the=
 odd number of links?
> BTW, in your example, a single link is also power of 2 (i.e., 2^0) and the=
re=E2=80=99s no need for load balancing.
> =20
> Best,
> Haoyu
> =20
> From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>=20
> Sent: Friday, February 4, 2022 10:57 AM
> To: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Haoyu Song <=
haoyu.song@futurewei.com>; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-l=
ag-02.txt
> =20
> Hi,
> =20
> Wrt power of two comment from Haoyu.
> This used to be the case in the early days because of poorly implemented l=
oad-balancing in the silicon, it was often the case that with odd number of c=
onstituents we=E2=80=99d see a rather uneven distribution.
> Most of these issues have been fixed in the last 3 years, these days - it i=
s very common (especially in DC) to use a LAG as an operational construct an=
d  provision a LAG with a single link, so the future upgrade doesn=E2=80=99t=
 require changes to L3 infra.
> =20
> I don=E2=80=99t=E2=80=99 think there a need to update the drawing nor to e=
xplicitly mentioning  =E2=80=9Cpower of two=E2=80=9D assumption anywhere in t=
he text .
> =20
> Cheers,
> Jeff
> =20
> From: Tianran Zhou
> Sent: Monday, January 24, 2022 5:06 PM
> To: Haoyu Song; Tianran Zhou; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)
> Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-l=
ag-02.txt
> =20
> Hi Haoyu,
> =20
> Thanks very much for your comments. Your perspective is correct.
> I will revise the document in the next version.
> =20
> Best,
> Tianran
> =20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoyu Song
> Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2022 1:07 AM
> To: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG=
 (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-l=
ag-02.txt
> =20
> WG,
> =20
> I think the scenario for LAG performance measurement is practical and the m=
ethod is sound, so I support this work.
> For Figure 1, I think usually for load balancing with hashing, the number o=
f links of a LAG would be power of two.
> =20
> Best,
> Haoyu Song
> =20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Tianran Zhou
> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2022 10:23 PM
> To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
> Subject: [ippm] FW: New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-l=
ag-02.txt
> =20
> Hi WG,
> =20
> We think this is an useful work on adapting OWAMP/TWAMP in LAG performance=
 measurement.
> We updated this draft based on the comments from the meeting discussion an=
d mailing list.
> Thanks for all the suggestions.
> More reviews and comments are welcome.
> =20
> Cheers,
> Tianran
> =20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]
> Sent: Monday, January 24, 2022 2:17 PM
> To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; Guo Jun <guo.jun2@zte.com.cn>; Ju=
n Guo <guo.jun2@zte.com.cn>; Rakesh Gandhi <rgandhi@cisco.com>; Tianran Zhou=
 <zhoutianran@huawei.com>; Zhenqiang Li <li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com>
> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt
> =20
> =20
> A new version of I-D, draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Tianran Zhou and posted to the IETF rep=
ository.
> =20
> Name:               draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag
> Revision:           02
> Title:                  One-way/Two-way Active Measurement Protocol Extens=
ions for Performance Measurement on LAG
> Document date:           2022-01-24
> Group:               Individual Submission
> Pages:               13
> URL:            https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp=
s%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Farchive%2Fid%2Fdraft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt&a=
mp;data=3D04%7C01%7Chaoyu.song%40futurewei.com%7Ca16115736bab48d99c2f08d9df0=
20bed%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637786022170908705%7CUnkn=
own%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVC=
I6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=3DO1SD54x5%2FM99g7YjxnzaMjaZuJ9S4UxNGcm6NAkTXng%3D=
&amp;reserved=3D0
> Status:         https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp=
s%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag%2F&amp;da=
ta=3D04%7C01%7Chaoyu.song%40futurewei.com%7Ca16115736bab48d99c2f08d9df020bed=
%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637786022170908705%7CUnknown%7=
CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0=
%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=3DUYUXVf0BvrCuH20ydOjxCI26KjgpAopEIV40%2BqjuxKY%3D&amp;=
reserved=3D0
> Htmlized:       https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp=
s%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag&am=
p;data=3D04%7C01%7Chaoyu.song%40futurewei.com%7Ca16115736bab48d99c2f08d9df02=
0bed%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637786022170908705%7CUnkno=
wn%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI=
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> Diff:           https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp=
s%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Frfcdiff%3Furl2%3Ddraft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02&amp=
;data=3D04%7C01%7Chaoyu.song%40futurewei.com%7Ca16115736bab48d99c2f08d9df020=
bed%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637786022170908705%7CUnknow=
n%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6=
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2Fo%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
> =20
> Abstract:
>    This document defines extensions to One-way Active Measurement
>    Protocol (OWAMP), and Two-way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP) to
>    implement performance measurement on every member link of a Link
>    Aggregation Group (LAG).  Knowing the measured metrics of each member
>    link of a LAG enables operators to enforce the performance based
>    traffic steering policy across the member links.
> =20
> =20
>                                                                           =
      =20
> =20
> =20
> The IETF Secretariat
> =20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ie=
tf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fippm&amp;data=3D04%7C01%7Chaoyu.song%40futurew=
ei.com%7Ca16115736bab48d99c2f08d9df020bed%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc=
%7C1%7C0%7C637786022170908705%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLC=
JQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=3DDHVbIOrP6nfA=
fjGnIl5N%2F%2B5B0O6qDonb%2F%2Beq2uTEJu4%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
> =20

--Apple-Mail-C2ACEA50-1A70-44F7-87E3-3A055AAB466A
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Hi Haoyu,<div><br></div><div>Yes, comparing=
 even and odd LAGs - deviations from ideal load-sharing are very similar.</d=
iv><div>Obviously - there=E2=80=99s no need for load-balancing across a sing=
le link ;-)</div><div><br><div dir=3D"ltr">Cheers,<br><div>Jeff</div></div><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Feb 4, 2022, at 11:02, Haoy=
u Song &lt;haoyu.song@futurewei.com&gt; wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Jeff,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It=E2=80=99s interesting to know. Any idea how the lo=
ad is balanced on the odd number of links?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">BTW, in your example, a single link is also power of 2=
 (i.e., 2^0) and there=E2=80=99s no need for load balancing.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Haoyu<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Jeff Tantsura &lt;jefftant.ietf@gmail.co=
m&gt; <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 4, 2022 10:57 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tianran Zhou &lt;zhoutianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;; H=
aoyu Song &lt;haoyu.song@futurewei.com&gt;; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) &lt=
;ippm@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp=
-on-lag-02.txt<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Wrt power of two comment from Haoyu.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This used to be the case in the early days because of=
 poorly implemented load-balancing in the silicon, it was often the case tha=
t with odd number of constituents we=E2=80=99d see a rather uneven distribut=
ion.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Most of these issues have been fixed in the last 3 ye=
ars, these days - it is very common (especially in DC) to use a LAG as an op=
erational construct and &nbsp;provision a LAG with a single link, so the fut=
ure upgrade doesn=E2=80=99t require changes
 to L3 infra.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don=E2=80=99t=E2=80=99 think there a need to update=
 the drawing nor to explicitly mentioning &nbsp;=E2=80=9Cpower of two=E2=80=9D=
 assumption anywhere in the text .<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Cheers,</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Jeff <o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From: </b><a href=3D"mailto:zhoutianran=3D40huawei=
.com@dmarc.ietf.org">Tianran Zhou</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Monday, January 24, 2022 5:06 PM<br>
<b>To: </b><a href=3D"mailto:haoyu.song@futurewei.com">Haoyu Song</a>; <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:zhoutianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org">
Tianran Zhou</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org">IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.o=
rg)</a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp=
-on-lag-02.txt<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Haoyu,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks very much for your comments. Your perspective i=
s correct.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I will revise the document in the next version.<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Tianran<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">From: ippm [<a href=3D"mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org">=
mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Haoyu Song<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2022 1:07 AM<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To: Tianran Zhou &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zhoutianran=3D=
40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org">zhoutianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&g=
t;; IETF IPPM WG (<a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org">ippm@ietf.org</a>) &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org">ippm@ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for draf=
t-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">WG, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think the scenario for LAG performance measurement i=
s practical and the method is sound, so I support this work.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For Figure 1, I think usually for load balancing with=
 hashing, the number of links of a LAG would be power of two.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Haoyu Song<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">From: ippm &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.or=
g">ippm-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf Of Tianran Zhou<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2022 10:23 PM<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To: IETF IPPM WG (<a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org">ip=
pm@ietf.org</a>) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org">ippm@ietf.org</a>&gt;<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Subject: [ippm] FW: New Version Notification for draf=
t-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi WG,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We think this is an useful work on adapting OWAMP/TWA=
MP in LAG performance measurement.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We updated this draft based on the comments from the m=
eeting discussion and mailing list.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for all the suggestions.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">More reviews and comments are welcome.<o:p></o:p></p>=

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Tianran<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">From: <a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">int=
ernet-drafts@ietf.org</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">mailt=
o:internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>]
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sent: Monday, January 24, 2022 2:17 PM<o:p></o:p></p>=

<p class=3D"MsoNormal">To: Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gma=
il.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Guo Jun &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:guo.jun=
2@zte.com.cn">guo.jun2@zte.com.cn</a>&gt;; Jun Guo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:guo=
.jun2@zte.com.cn">guo.jun2@zte.com.cn</a>&gt;; Rakesh Gandhi
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rgandhi@cisco.com">rgandhi@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Tianran=
 Zhou &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zhoutianran@huawei.com">zhoutianran@huawei.com</=
a>&gt;; Zhenqiang Li &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com">li_zhen=
qiang@hotmail.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Subject: New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-o=
twamp-on-lag-02.txt<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A new version of I-D, draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.=
txt<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">has been successfully submitted by Tianran Zhou and p=
osted to the IETF repository.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Name:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Revision:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 02<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Title:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; One-way/Two-way Acti=
ve Measurement Protocol Extensions for Performance Measurement on LAG<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Document date:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2022-01-24<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Group:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Individual Submission<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Pages:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 13<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Abstract:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; This document defines extensions to One-=
way Active Measurement<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; Protocol (OWAMP), and Two-way Active Mea=
surement Protocol (TWAMP) to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; implement performance measurement on eve=
ry member link of a Link<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; Aggregation Group (LAG).&nbsp; Knowing t=
he measured metrics of each member<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; link of a LAG enables operators to enfor=
ce the performance based<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; traffic steering policy across the membe=
r links.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The IETF Secretariat<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">ippm mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org">ippm@ietf.org</a><o:=
p></o:p></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">ippm mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org">ippm@ietf.org</a><o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm=
">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">ippm mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org">ippm@ietf.org</a><o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm=
">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>


</div></blockquote></div></body></html>=

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Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options-07.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF.

        Title           : In-situ OAM IPv6 Options
        Authors         : Shwetha Bhandari
                          Frank Brockners
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options-07.txt
	Pages           : 13
	Date            : 2022-02-06

Abstract:
   In-situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (IOAM) records
   operational and telemetry information in the packet while the packet
   traverses a path between two points in the network.  This document
   outlines how IOAM data fields are encapsulated in IPv6.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options-07

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options-07


Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts



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From: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>
To: Justin Iurman <justin.iurman@uliege.be>, Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: Marcus Ihlar <marcus.ihlar=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>, "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options
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Subject: Re: [ippm] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options
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------=_001_NextPart368012786631_=----
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="GB2312"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charse=
t=3DGB2312"><style>body { line-height: 1.5; }blockquote { margin-top: 0px;=
 margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.5em; }p { margin-top: 0px; margin-bott=
om: 0px; }body { font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA;=
 color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: 1.5; }</style></head><body>=0A<div><spa=
n></span><div>Hi Jeff and Haoyu,</div><div><br></div><div>The effect of lo=
ad balencing in LAG depends on the implementation. It is common now to use=
 1 or 10 links in a LAG even in backbone networks. It is up to the operato=
r to determine the number of member links used in &nbsp;a LAG, usually tak=
ing into account both the requirement of the traffic and the ability of th=
e devices.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>The figure and text in our docs =
are used to show the case that it is necessary to extend TWAMP/OWAMP/STAMP=
 to measure the performance of each link in a LAG. We have no intent to pr=
esent a BCP for the nember of member links in a LAG.</div><div><br></div><=
hr color=3D"#b5c4df" size=3D"1" align=3D"left" style=3D"width: 210px; heig=
ht: 1px;"><div><div style=3D"margin: 10px; font-family: verdana; font-size=
: 10pt;"><div><div style=3D"font-family: =CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA; font-si=
ze: 14px; line-height: 21px;">Best Regards,</div><div style=3D"font-family=
: =CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA; font-size: 14px; line-height: 21px;">Zhenqiang=
 Li</div></div><div><br></div><div>li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com</div></div></d=
iv><blockquote><div>&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"border-style: solid none non=
e; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3=
pt 0cm 0cm;"><div style=3D"padding: 8px; font-size: 12px; font-family: tah=
oma; background: rgb(239, 239, 239);"><div><b>From:</b>&nbsp;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:haoyu.song@futurewei.com" style=3D"color: blue;">Haoyu Song</a></div>=
<div><b>Date:</b>&nbsp;2022-02-05&nbsp;03:02</div><div><b>To:</b>&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color: blue;">Jeff Tantsu=
ra</a>;&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:zhoutianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: blue;">Tianran Zhou</a>;&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.=
org" style=3D"color: blue;">IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)</a></div><div><b>=
Subject:</b>&nbsp;Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-ot=
wamp-on-lag-02.txt</div></div></div><div><div class=3D"FoxDiv2022020710062=
5102734" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;"><div class=3D"WordSection1" styl=
e=3D"page: WordSection1;"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0i=
n; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">H=
i Jeff,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; m=
argin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-=
left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">It=A1=AFs i=
nteresting to know. Any idea how the load is balanced on the odd number of=
 links?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; m=
argin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">BTW, =
in your example, a single link is also power of 2 (i.e., 2^0) and there=A1=
=AFs no need for load balancing.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Ca=
libri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"m=
argin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,=
 sans-serif;">Best,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-r=
ight: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif;">Haoyu<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0=
in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">=
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; bor=
der-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in=
 0in;"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in=
; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b>From:</b>&nbsp;Je=
ff Tantsura &lt;jefftant.ietf@gmail.com&gt;&nbsp;<br><b>Sent:</b>&nbsp;Fri=
day, February 4, 2022 10:57 AM<br><b>To:</b>&nbsp;Tianran Zhou &lt;zhoutia=
nran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;; Haoyu Song &lt;haoyu.song@futurewe=
i.com&gt;; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) &lt;ippm@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subjec=
t:</b>&nbsp;RE: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp-o=
n-lag-02.txt<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mar=
gin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, s=
ans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-ri=
ght: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif;">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in;=
 margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:=
p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margi=
n-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Wrt power=
 of two comment from Haoyu.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"=
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif;">This used to be the case in the early days because of poorl=
y implemented load-balancing in the silicon, it was often the case that wi=
th odd number of constituents we=A1=AFd see a rather uneven distribution.<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-le=
ft: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Most of these=
 issues have been fixed in the last 3 years, these days - it is very commo=
n (especially in DC) to use a LAG as an operational construct and &nbsp;pr=
ovision a LAG with a single link, so the future upgrade doesn=A1=AFt requi=
re changes to L3 infra.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"marg=
in-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sa=
ns-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-rig=
ht: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-ser=
if;">I don=A1=AFt=A1=AF think there a need to update the drawing nor to ex=
plicitly mentioning &nbsp;=A1=B0power of two=A1=B1 assumption anywhere in =
the text .<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in=
; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; marg=
in-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size: 10pt;">Cheers,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-fam=
ily: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;">Jeff<o:p></o:p=
></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left=
: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></p><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(2=
25, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><p class=3D"M=
soNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; f=
ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b>From:&nbsp;</b><a href=3D"mailto:zhou=
tianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue;">Tianran Zhou=
</a><br><b>Sent:&nbsp;</b>Monday, January 24, 2022 5:06 PM<br><b>To:&nbsp;=
</b><a href=3D"mailto:haoyu.song@futurewei.com" style=3D"color: blue;">Hao=
yu Song</a>;&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:zhoutianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.=
org" style=3D"color: blue;">Tianran Zhou</a>;&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:ippm@=
ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue;">IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)</a><br><b>Su=
bject:&nbsp;</b>Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwa=
mp-on-lag-02.txt<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margi=
n-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, san=
s-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-righ=
t: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-seri=
f;">Hi Haoyu,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: =
0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; m=
argin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Thank=
s very much for your comments. Your perspective is correct.<o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-=
size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">I will revise the document =
in the next version.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-=
right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-=
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:=
 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;=
">Best,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; m=
argin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Tianr=
an<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin=
-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left:=
 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">-----Original Me=
ssage-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in=
; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Fr=
om: ippm [<a href=3D"mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue;">=
mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Haoyu Song<o:p></o:p></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-si=
ze: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 20=
22 1:07 AM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in=
; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">To=
: Tianran Zhou &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zhoutianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf=
.org" style=3D"color: blue;">zhoutianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>=
&gt;; IETF IPPM WG (<a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue;=
">ippm@ietf.org</a>) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" style=3D"color: =
blue;">ippm@ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibr=
i, sans-serif;">Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-li-=
ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"ma=
rgin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-r=
ight: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif;">WG,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in=
; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; marg=
in-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">I think =
the scenario for LAG performance measurement is practical and the method i=
s sound, so I support this work.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Ca=
libri, sans-serif;">For Figure 1, I think usually for load balancing with =
hashing, the number of links of a LAG would be power of two.<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font=
-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size:=
 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Best,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Haoyu Song<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; fo=
nt-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-fam=
ily: Calibri, sans-serif;">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">From: ippm &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
ippm-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue;">ippm-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt=
; On Behalf Of Tianran Zhou<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"=
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif;">Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2022 10:23 PM<o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size:=
 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">To: IETF IPPM WG (<a href=3D"mai=
lto:ippm@ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue;">ippm@ietf.org</a>) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue;">ippm@ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left:=
 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Subject: [ippm] =
FW: New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0i=
n; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; fon=
t-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Hi WG,<o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size=
: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11=
pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">We think this is an useful work on =
adapting OWAMP/TWAMP in LAG performance measurement.<o:p></o:p></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 1=
1pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">We updated this draft based on the=
 comments from the meeting discussion and mailing list.<o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size=
: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Thanks for all the suggestions.=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-l=
eft: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">More reviews=
 and comments are welcome.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"m=
argin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,=
 sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-=
right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-=
serif;">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right=
: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
;">Tianran<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in=
; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; marg=
in-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">-----Ori=
ginal Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-ri=
ght: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif;">From:&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" style=3D"colo=
r: blue;">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&nbsp;[<a href=3D"mailto:internet-dr=
afts@ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue;">mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>]=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-l=
eft: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Sent: Monday=
, January 24, 2022 2:17 PM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"m=
argin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,=
 sans-serif;">To: Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com"=
 style=3D"color: blue;">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Guo Jun &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:guo.jun2@zte.com.cn" style=3D"color: blue;">guo.jun2@zte.com.cn=
</a>&gt;; Jun Guo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:guo.jun2@zte.com.cn" style=3D"colo=
r: blue;">guo.jun2@zte.com.cn</a>&gt;; Rakesh Gandhi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:rgandhi@cisco.com" style=3D"color: blue;">rgandhi@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Tian=
ran Zhou &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zhoutianran@huawei.com" style=3D"color: blu=
e;">zhoutianran@huawei.com</a>&gt;; Zhenqiang Li &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:li_=
zhenqiang@hotmail.com" style=3D"color: blue;">li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com</a>=
&gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; marg=
in-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Subject:=
 New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-s=
ize: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 1=
1pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">A new version of I-D, draft-li-ipp=
m-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margi=
n-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, san=
s-serif;">has been successfully submitted by Tianran Zhou and posted to th=
e IETF repository.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-ri=
ght: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0=
in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">=
Name:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Revision:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 02<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cal=
ibri, sans-serif;">Title:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; One-way/Two-way Acti=
ve Measurement Protocol Extensions for Performance Measurement on LAG<o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: =
0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Document date:&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2022-01-24<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0=
in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Group:&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I=
ndividual Submission<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-=
right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-=
serif;">Pages:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 13<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"=
margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri=
, sans-serif;">URL:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com=
/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Farchive%2Fid%2Fdraft-li-ippm-otwamp-o=
n-lag-02.txt&amp;amp;data=3D04%7C01%7Chaoyu.song%40futurewei.com%7Ca161157=
36bab48d99c2f08d9df020bed%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637=
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/o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0=
in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Abstract:<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in;=
 font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp; This doc=
ument defines extensions to One-way Active Measurement<o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size:=
 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp; Protocol (OWAMP), a=
nd Two-way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP) to<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11=
pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp; implement performance =
measurement on every member link of a Link<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-=
family: Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp; Aggregation Group (LAG).&nbsp; =
Knowing the measured metrics of each member<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp; link of a LAG enables operator=
s to enforce the performance based<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" st=
yle=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp; traffic steering policy across the memb=
er links.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in;=
 margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:=
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Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2022 14:07:08 +0100 (CET)
From: Justin Iurman <justin.iurman@uliege.be>
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To: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>
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Hi Frank,

LGTM, thanks for this. I think this document is ready to progress.

Justin

On Feb 6, 2022, at 5:58 PM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) fbrockne@cisco.com wrote:
> Hi Justin,
> 
> Sorry for the late response. I've just posted a revision
> (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options/07/) which
> includes the two suggested changes below.
> 
> Cheers, Frank
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Justin Iurman
>> Sent: Wednesday, 29 December 2021 15:09
>> To: Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>
>> Cc: Marcus Ihlar <marcus.ihlar=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; IPv6 List
>> <ipv6@ietf.org>; ippm@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [ippm] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options
>> 
>> Hi ippm, 6man,
>> 
>> I do believe this document is almost ready, though it probably needs a new
>> version to address the following review comments.
>> 
>> 1) In section 4 ("In-situ OAM Metadata Transport in IPv6"), third paragraph, it
>> says:
>> 
>>   "In order for IOAM to work in IPv6 networks, IOAM MUST be explicitly
>>    enabled per interface on every node within the IOAM domain.  Unless a
>>    particular interface is explicitly enabled (i.e., explicitly
>>    configured) for IOAM, a router MUST drop packets that contain
>>    extension headers carrying IOAM data-fields.  This is the default
>>    behavior and is independent of whether the Hop-by-Hop options or
>>    Destination options are used to encode the IOAM data.  This ensures
>>    that IOAM data does not unintentionally get forwarded outside the
>>    IOAM domain."
>> 
>> I don't think "a router MUST drop packets" is correct. IOAM options are defined
>> with type "00", i.e., skip over this option and continue processing the header.
>> Instead, I would rather have something like "a router MUST ignore IOAM
>> options". Indeed, you don't want a node to drop packets with IOAM options,
>> when not configured, to keep consistency with the behavior of type "00". This is
>> the role of a firewall to drop packets if it detects IOAM injections or IOAM
>> leaks.
>> 
>> New text suggestion:
>> 
>>   "In order for IOAM to work in IPv6 networks, IOAM MUST be explicitly
>>    enabled per interface on every node within the IOAM domain.  Unless a
>>    particular interface is explicitly enabled (i.e., explicitly
>>    configured) for IOAM, a router MUST ignore IOAM Options.  As
>>    additional security, IOAM domains SHOULD provide a mechanism to
>>    prevent injections at ingress or leaks at egress."
>> 
>> Note that the last sentence could be omitted, as consideration #4 (see section
>> 5.1) already talks about it.
>> 
>> 2) Section 5.4.1 ("IPv6-in-IPv6 encapsulation") describes a hacky way to
>> encapsulate packets. Instead of using the egress as the outer destination
>> address, it uses the same destination address as the inner one. I understand the
>> pros of such a technique (i.e., same forwarding path), but it goes against
>> RFC2473 and, as a consequence, also against RFC8200. So, I don't think it should
>> be part of a standard. Since the "normal" IPv6-in-IPv6 use case is implicitly
>> included in the next section (5.4.2, "IP-in-IPv6 encapsulation with ULA"), I
>> think
>> section
>> 5.4.1 could/should be dropped.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Justin
>> 
>> On Dec 17, 2021, at 10:37 PM, Erik Kline ek.ietf@gmail.com wrote:
>> > +6MAN WG, just as an FYI
>> >
>> > On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 7:39 AM Marcus Ihlar
>> > <marcus.ihlar=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hello IPPM,
>> >>
>> >> This email starts a Working Group Last Call on
>> >> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options/
>> >>
>> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-optio
>> >> ns-06
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Please provide feedback by replying to this email with your reviews
>> >> and if you think this document is ready to progress, by Friday, January 14.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Best Regards,
>> >>
>> >> Marcus & Tommy
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> ippm mailing list
>> >> ippm@ietf.org
>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>> >
>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> > ipv6@ietf.org
>> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> ippm mailing list
>> ippm@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm


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Hi Zhenqiang,

That was my point, to keep the drawing and text as is.

Cheers,
Jeff

> On Feb 6, 2022, at 18:23, lizhenqiang@chinamobile.com wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> Hi Jeff and Haoyu,
>=20
> The effect of load balencing in LAG depends on the implementation. It is c=
ommon now to use 1 or 10 links in a LAG even in backbone networks. It is up t=
o the operator to determine the number of member links used in  a LAG, usual=
ly taking into account both the requirement of the traffic and the ability o=
f the devices.=20
>=20
> The figure and text in our docs are used to show the case that it is neces=
sary to extend TWAMP/OWAMP/STAMP to measure the performance of each link in a=
 LAG. We have no intent to present a BCP for the nember of member links in a=
 LAG.
>=20
> Best Regards,
> Zhenqiang Li
>=20
> li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com
> =20
> From: Haoyu Song
> Date: 2022-02-05 03:02
> To: Jeff Tantsura; Tianran Zhou; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)
> Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-l=
ag-02.txt
> Hi Jeff,
> =20
> It=E2=80=99s interesting to know. Any idea how the load is balanced on the=
 odd number of links?
> BTW, in your example, a single link is also power of 2 (i.e., 2^0) and the=
re=E2=80=99s no need for load balancing.
> =20
> Best,
> Haoyu
> =20
> From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>=20
> Sent: Friday, February 4, 2022 10:57 AM
> To: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Haoyu Song <=
haoyu.song@futurewei.com>; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-l=
ag-02.txt
> =20
> Hi,
> =20
> Wrt power of two comment from Haoyu.
> This used to be the case in the early days because of poorly implemented l=
oad-balancing in the silicon, it was often the case that with odd number of c=
onstituents we=E2=80=99d see a rather uneven distribution.
> Most of these issues have been fixed in the last 3 years, these days - it i=
s very common (especially in DC) to use a LAG as an operational construct an=
d  provision a LAG with a single link, so the future upgrade doesn=E2=80=99t=
 require changes to L3 infra.
> =20
> I don=E2=80=99t=E2=80=99 think there a need to update the drawing nor to e=
xplicitly mentioning  =E2=80=9Cpower of two=E2=80=9D assumption anywhere in t=
he text .
> =20
> Cheers,
> Jeff
> =20
> From: Tianran Zhou
> Sent: Monday, January 24, 2022 5:06 PM
> To: Haoyu Song; Tianran Zhou; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)
> Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-l=
ag-02.txt
> =20
> Hi Haoyu,
> =20
> Thanks very much for your comments. Your perspective is correct.
> I will revise the document in the next version.
> =20
> Best,
> Tianran
> =20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoyu Song
> Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2022 1:07 AM
> To: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG=
 (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-l=
ag-02.txt
> =20
> WG,
> =20
> I think the scenario for LAG performance measurement is practical and the m=
ethod is sound, so I support this work.
> For Figure 1, I think usually for load balancing with hashing, the number o=
f links of a LAG would be power of two.
> =20
> Best,
> Haoyu Song
> =20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Tianran Zhou
> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2022 10:23 PM
> To: IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) <ippm@ietf.org>
> Subject: [ippm] FW: New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-l=
ag-02.txt
> =20
> Hi WG,
> =20
> We think this is an useful work on adapting OWAMP/TWAMP in LAG performance=
 measurement.
> We updated this draft based on the comments from the meeting discussion an=
d mailing list.
> Thanks for all the suggestions.
> More reviews and comments are welcome.
> =20
> Cheers,
> Tianran
> =20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]
> Sent: Monday, January 24, 2022 2:17 PM
> To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; Guo Jun <guo.jun2@zte.com.cn>; Ju=
n Guo <guo.jun2@zte.com.cn>; Rakesh Gandhi <rgandhi@cisco.com>; Tianran Zhou=
 <zhoutianran@huawei.com>; Zhenqiang Li <li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com>
> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt
> =20
> =20
> A new version of I-D, draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Tianran Zhou and posted to the IETF rep=
ository.
> =20
> Name:               draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag
> Revision:           02
> Title:                  One-way/Two-way Active Measurement Protocol Extens=
ions for Performance Measurement on LAG
> Document date:           2022-01-24
> Group:               Individual Submission
> Pages:               13
> URL:            https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp=
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s%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag&am=
p;data=3D04%7C01%7Chaoyu.song%40futurewei.com%7Ca16115736bab48d99c2f08d9df02=
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> Diff:           https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp=
s%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Frfcdiff%3Furl2%3Ddraft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02&amp=
;data=3D04%7C01%7Chaoyu.song%40futurewei.com%7Ca16115736bab48d99c2f08d9df020=
bed%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637786022170908705%7CUnknow=
n%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6=
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> =20
> Abstract:
>    This document defines extensions to One-way Active Measurement
>    Protocol (OWAMP), and Two-way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP) to
>    implement performance measurement on every member link of a Link
>    Aggregation Group (LAG).  Knowing the measured metrics of each member
>    link of a LAG enables operators to enforce the performance based
>    traffic steering policy across the member links.
> =20
> =20
>                                                                           =
      =20
> =20
> =20
> The IETF Secretariat
> =20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ie=
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> =20
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
> =20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Hi Zhenqiang,<div><br></div><div>That was m=
y point, to keep the drawing and text as is.<br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">Cheers,=
<br><div>Jeff</div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Fe=
b 6, 2022, at 18:23, lizhenqiang@chinamobile.com wrote:<br><br></blockquote>=
</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<meta http-equiv=3D=
"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DGB2312"><style>body { line-he=
ight: 1.5; }blockquote { margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0=
.5em; }p { margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; }body { font-size: 10.5pt; f=
ont-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-=
height: 1.5; }</style>
<div><span></span><div>Hi Jeff and Haoyu,</div><div><br></div><div>The effec=
t of load balencing in LAG depends on the implementation. It is common now t=
o use 1 or 10 links in a LAG even in backbone networks. It is up to the oper=
ator to determine the number of member links used in &nbsp;a LAG, usually ta=
king into account both the requirement of the traffic and the ability of the=
 devices.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>The figure and text in our docs are=
 used to show the case that it is necessary to extend TWAMP/OWAMP/STAMP to m=
easure the performance of each link in a LAG. We have no intent to present a=
 BCP for the nember of member links in a LAG.</div><div><br></div><hr color=3D=
"#b5c4df" size=3D"1" align=3D"left" style=3D"width: 210px; height: 1px;"><di=
v><div style=3D"margin: 10px; font-family: verdana; font-size: 10pt;"><div><=
div style=3D"font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91; font-size: 1=
4px; line-height: 21px;">Best Regards,</div><div style=3D"font-family: =E5=BE=
=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91; font-size: 14px; line-height: 21px;">Zhenqia=
ng Li</div></div><div><br></div><div>li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com</div></div></d=
iv><blockquote><div>&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none;=
 border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0=
cm 0cm;"><div style=3D"padding: 8px; font-size: 12px; font-family: tahoma; b=
ackground: rgb(239, 239, 239);"><div><b>From:</b>&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:hao=
yu.song@futurewei.com" style=3D"color: blue;">Haoyu Song</a></div><div><b>Da=
te:</b>&nbsp;2022-02-05&nbsp;03:02</div><div><b>To:</b>&nbsp;<a href=3D"mail=
to:jefftant.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color: blue;">Jeff Tantsura</a>;&nbsp;<=
a href=3D"mailto:zhoutianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org" style=3D"color: b=
lue;">Tianran Zhou</a>;&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" style=3D"color=
: blue;">IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)</a></div><div><b>Subject:</b>&nbsp;Re:=
 [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt</div=
></div></div><div><div class=3D"FoxDiv20220207100625102734" style=3D"word-wr=
ap: break-word;"><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-siz=
e: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Hi Jeff,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; f=
ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif;">It=E2=80=99s interesting to know. Any idea how the l=
oad is balanced on the odd number of links?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-fam=
ily: Calibri, sans-serif;">BTW, in your example, a single link is also power=
 of 2 (i.e., 2^0) and there=E2=80=99s no need for load balancing.<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; fon=
t-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11=
pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Best,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-fa=
mily: Calibri, sans-serif;">Haoyu<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div style=3D"border-style: solid=
 none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; pad=
ding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margi=
n-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b>From:</b=
>&nbsp;Jeff Tantsura &lt;jefftant.ietf@gmail.com&gt;&nbsp;<br><b>Sent:</b>&n=
bsp;Friday, February 4, 2022 10:57 AM<br><b>To:</b>&nbsp;Tianran Zhou &lt;zh=
outianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;; Haoyu Song &lt;haoyu.song@futur=
ewei.com&gt;; IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org) &lt;ippm@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subje=
ct:</b>&nbsp;RE: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on=
-lag-02.txt<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin=
-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0i=
n; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Hi,=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-lef=
t: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; fo=
nt-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Wrt power of two comment f=
rom Haoyu.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; m=
argin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">This us=
ed to be the case in the early days because of poorly implemented load-balan=
cing in the silicon, it was often the case that with odd number of constitue=
nts we=E2=80=99d see a rather uneven distribution.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; f=
ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Most of these issues have been fixed in th=
e last 3 years, these days - it is very common (especially in DC) to use a L=
AG as an operational construct and &nbsp;provision a LAG with a single link,=
 so the future upgrade doesn=E2=80=99t require changes to L3 infra.<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; f=
ont-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 1=
1pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">I don=E2=80=99t=E2=80=99 think there=
 a need to update the drawing nor to explicitly mentioning &nbsp;=E2=80=9Cpo=
wer of two=E2=80=9D assumption anywhere in the text .<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt=
; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-fam=
ily: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;">Cheers,</span><o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left:=
 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size: 10pt;">Jeff<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mar=
gin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, san=
s-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; b=
order-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in=
 0in;"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; f=
ont-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b>From:&nbsp;</b><a href=
=3D"mailto:zhoutianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue;"=
>Tianran Zhou</a><br><b>Sent:&nbsp;</b>Monday, January 24, 2022 5:06 PM<br><=
b>To:&nbsp;</b><a href=3D"mailto:haoyu.song@futurewei.com" style=3D"color: b=
lue;">Haoyu Song</a>;&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:zhoutianran=3D40huawei.com@dmar=
c.ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue;">Tianran Zhou</a>;&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:=
ippm@ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue;">IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org)</a><br><b=
>Subject:&nbsp;</b>Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otw=
amp-on-lag-02.txt<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin=
-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0i=
n; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Hi H=
aoyu,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margi=
n-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0i=
n; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Thanks very much for y=
our comments. Your perspective is correct.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif;">I will revise the document in the next version.<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0=
in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-s=
ize: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Best,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; f=
ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Tianran<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,=
 sans-serif;">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif;">From: ippm [<a href=3D"mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org"=
 style=3D"color: blue;">mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Haoyu=
 Song<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margi=
n-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Sent: Tuesd=
ay, January 25, 2022 1:07 AM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"m=
argin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, s=
ans-serif;">To: Tianran Zhou &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zhoutianran=3D40huawei.co=
m@dmarc.ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue;">zhoutianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ie=
tf.org</a>&gt;; IETF IPPM WG (<a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" style=3D"colo=
r: blue;">ippm@ietf.org</a>) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" style=3D"c=
olor: blue;">ippm@ietf.org</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cali=
bri, sans-serif;">Subject: Re: [ippm] New Version Notification for draft-li-=
ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"marg=
in-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans=
-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0=
in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">WG=
,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-le=
ft: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; f=
ont-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">I think the scenario for L=
AG performance measurement is practical and the method is sound, so I suppor=
t this work.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in=
; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">For =
Figure 1, I think usually for load balancing with hashing, the number of lin=
ks of a LAG would be power of two.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cali=
bri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margi=
n-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-=
serif;">Best,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0i=
n; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Hao=
yu Song<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; mar=
gin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0=
in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">-----Original Messag=
e-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; marg=
in-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">From: ippm=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue;">ippm-bo=
unces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf Of Tianran Zhou<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2022 10:23 PM<o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0i=
n; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">To: IETF IPPM WG (<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue;">ippm@ietf.org</a>) &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue;">ippm@ietf.org</a>&gt;=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-lef=
t: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Subject: [ippm] =
FW: New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; f=
ont-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 1=
1pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Hi WG,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-=
family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" st=
yle=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Ca=
libri, sans-serif;">We think this is an useful work on adapting OWAMP/TWAMP i=
n LAG performance measurement.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,=
 sans-serif;">We updated this draft based on the comments from the meeting d=
iscussion and mailing list.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"ma=
rgin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sa=
ns-serif;">Thanks for all the suggestions.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif;">More reviews and comments are welcome.<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font=
-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11p=
t; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif;">Tianran<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" st=
yle=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Ca=
libri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mar=
gin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, san=
s-serif;">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" st=
yle=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Ca=
libri, sans-serif;">From:&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" s=
tyle=3D"color: blue;">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&nbsp;[<a href=3D"mailto:i=
nternet-drafts@ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue;">mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.=
org</a>]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; ma=
rgin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Sent: Mo=
nday, January 24, 2022 2:17 PM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,=
 sans-serif;">To: Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" s=
tyle=3D"color: blue;">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Guo Jun &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:guo.jun2@zte.com.cn" style=3D"color: blue;">guo.jun2@zte.com.cn</a>&g=
t;; Jun Guo &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:guo.jun2@zte.com.cn" style=3D"color: blue;=
">guo.jun2@zte.com.cn</a>&gt;; Rakesh Gandhi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rgandhi@c=
isco.com" style=3D"color: blue;">rgandhi@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Tianran Zhou &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:zhoutianran@huawei.com" style=3D"color: blue;">zhoutianra=
n@huawei.com</a>&gt;; Zhenqiang Li &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:li_zhenqiang@hotmai=
l.com" style=3D"color: blue;">li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com</a>&gt;<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-s=
ize: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Subject: New Version Notificat=
ion for draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,=
 sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-ri=
ght: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-seri=
f;">A new version of I-D, draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-siz=
e: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">has been successfully submitted b=
y Tianran Zhou and posted to the IETF repository.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; fo=
nt-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif;">Name:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font=
-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Revision:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 02<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-fa=
mily: Calibri, sans-serif;">Title:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; One-way/Two-way=
 Active Measurement Protocol Extensions for Performance Measurement on LAG<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left:=
 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Document date:&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2022-01-24<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; f=
ont-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Group:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Individual=
 Submission<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in;=
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0futurewei.com%7Ca16115736bab48d99c2f08d9df020bed%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d=
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n-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0i=
n; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Abstract:<o:p></o:p><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font=
-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp; This document d=
efines extensions to One-way Active Measurement<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp; Protocol (OWAMP), and Two-way Ac=
tive Measurement Protocol (TWAMP) to<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" st=
yle=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Ca=
libri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp; implement performance measurement on every m=
ember link of a Link<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-ri=
ght: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-seri=
f;">&nbsp;&nbsp; Aggregation Group (LAG).&nbsp; Knowing the measured metrics=
 of each member<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0=
in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">&n=
bsp;&nbsp; link of a LAG enables operators to enforce the performance based<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left=
: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp; traf=
fic steering policy across the member links.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-fa=
mily: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" styl=
e=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cali=
bri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margi=
n-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-=
serif;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" s=
tyle=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: C=
alibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"ma=
rgin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sa=
ns-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right=
: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"=
>The IETF Secretariat<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-r=
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if;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in;=
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&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-le=
ft: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">_______________=
________________________________<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
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ue;">ippm@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-=
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rmal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-fa=
mily: Calibri, sans-serif;">_______________________________________________<=
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: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">ippm mailing list=
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o:ippm@ietf.org" style=3D"color: blue;">ippm@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></p><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 1=
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>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div>
</div></blockquote></div></body></html>=

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Subject: [ippm] The IPPM WG has placed draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol in state "Adopted by a WG"
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The IPPM WG has placed draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol in state
Adopted by a WG (entered by Tommy Pauly)

The document is available at
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol/



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In-Reply-To: <9340CFDA-079C-4490-A01C-EB863D365F8F@apple.com>
From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 13:10:25 -0800
Message-ID: <CA+RyBmW=xMmj70GymYwbsG0XcDNS64UNSWxGdwy10+KMjuVWww@mail.gmail.com>
To: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com>
Cc: Marcus Ihlar <marcus.ihlar=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness
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Hi Christoph,
apologies for the belated response and thank you for sharing interesting
details of you using the measurement method. I think that if the
measurement method can not only provide the Round-trip Per Minute (RPM)
metric but expose the network propagation and residential components of the
round-trip delay, then it seems to me, the scope of the draft to be aligned
with the charter of the IPPM WG and I'll be in favor of the WG adoption of
the work.
What do you think? What is the opinion of the authors and the WG?

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 4:42 PM Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com> wrote:

> Hello Greg,
>
> On Jan 6, 2022, at 3:00 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Christoph,
> a happy and healthy New Year to you and All!
>
>
> Happy New Year to you as well!
>
> Thank you for your kind consideration of my notes and detailed responses.
> Please find my follow-up notes in-line below under the GIM>> tag.
>
>
> Thanks for your replies. Please see inline:
>
> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 10:52 AM Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Greg,
>>
>> thanks for your comments. Please see inline:
>>
>> On Dec 22, 2021, at 11:43 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Marcus, Authors, et al,
>> apologies for the belated response.
>> I've read the draft and have some comments to share with you:
>>
>>    - as I understand it, the proposed new responsiveness metric is
>>    viewed as the single indicator of a bufferbloat condition in a networ=
k. As
>>    I recall, the discussion at Measuring Network Quality for End-Users
>>    workshop and on the mailing list
>>    <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/network-quality-workshop/?g=
bt=3D1&index=3DcuW_1lh4DD22V28EvlPFB_NjjZY>
>>    indicated, that there=E2=80=99s no consensus on what behaviors, sympt=
oms can
>>    reliably signal the bufferbloat.
>>
>> We are not trying for this responsiveness metric to be "the single
>> indicator of bufferbloat". Bufferbloat can be measured in many different
>> number of ways. And each of these will produce a correct, but a differen=
t
>> result. Thus, "bufferbloat" is whatever the methodology tries to detect.
>>
>> Let me give an example of two methodologies that are both correct but
>> both will produce entirely different numbers :
>>
>> If we would decide to generate the load by flooding the network with UDP
>> traffic from a specific 4-tuple and measure latency with parallel ICMP
>> pings. Then, on a over-buffered FIFO queue we would measure huge latenci=
es
>> (thus correctly expose bufferbloat), while on a FQ-codel queue we would =
not
>> measure any bufferbloat.
>>
>> If on the other hand, the load-generating traffic is changing the
>> source-port for every single UDP-packet, then in both the FIFO-queue and
>> the FQ-codel queue we will measure huge amounts of bufferbloat.
>>
>> Thus, these two methods both produced correct results but with hugely
>> different numbers in the FQ-codel case. [1]
>>
>> Now, while both methods measure some variant of bufferbloat, they both
>> don't measure a realistic usage of the network.
>>
> GIM>> Thank you for the insights. It seems to me that what the method can
> demonstrate is rather the level of efficiency of the AQM in the network f=
or
> a particular class of applications.
>
>
> Yes, that is a good description. It is for a "particular class of
> applications" and we are trying to make this class of applications
> representative of a "typical user-scenario". (admittedly, we can debate
> forever on what kind of applications are representative and I would love =
to
> have that debate :-)).
>
> On the point of "efficiency of the AQM". I would go even further that it'=
s
> not only AQM but also the client- and server-side implementations of thes=
e
> applications (as noted further below).
>
>
>
>>
>> That is why the "Responsiveness under working conditions" tries to
>> clearly specify how the load is generated and how the latency is being
>> measured. And it does not measure "bufferbloat" but it measures
>> "responsiveness under working conditions" based on the methodology that =
is
>> being used (using HTTP/2 or HTTP/3, multiple flows, ...). It does expose
>> bufferbloat which can happen in the network. It also exposes certain
>> server-side behaviors that can cause (huge amounts of) additional latenc=
y -
>> those behaviors are typically not called "bufferbloat".
>>
> GIM>> Thank you for pointing out that the result of the RTT measurement
> has two contributing factors - network and server.
>
>
> Yes, servers contribute as do the client-side implementations. It's all
> three (client, network, server) that need to work "correctly" to achieve
> good responsiveness. Btw., as we are now gathering more experience with o=
ur
> methodology in different environments we find that the biggest portions o=
f
> latency actually come from the server-side. We see several seconds of
> latency introduced by the HTTP/2 and TCP implementations.
>
> It seems worth enhancing the method to localize each contribution and
> measure them separately.
>
>
> With the latency measuring probes being sent on load-bearing connections
> and separate connections and with the separate connections serving to
> measure DNS/TCP/... individually, the different data-points actually allo=
w
> to localize to some extend.
>
> However, I would be reluctant to dive too deep into
> localization/trouble-shooting/debugging of networks as part of this I-D. =
As
> this opens a whole new can of worms. We could then start thinking about
> sending latency-probes while playing with the IP TTL to find which router
> is introducing the latency,... It's an entirely different research-topic
> IMO :-) Dave Taht was thinking of starting something along these lines (
> https://github.com/dtaht/wtbb).
>
>
>>
>>
>>    - It seems that it would be reasonable to first define what is being
>>    measured, characterized by the responsiveness metric. Having a docume=
nt
>>    that discusses and defines the bufferbloat would be great.
>>
>> I agree that there is a lack of definition for what "bufferbloat" really
>> is.
>>
>> The way we look at "responsiveness under working conditions" is that it
>> measures the latency in conditions that may realistically happen in
>> worst-case scenarios with end-users/implementations that are non-malicio=
us
>> (non-malicious to exclude the UDP-flooding scenario).
>>
>> Thus, I assume we should make a better job at explaining this. The lack
>> of a formal definition of "bufferbloat" doesn't help and thus we are ind=
eed
>> using this term a bit freely in the current draft. We will improve the
>> Introduction to better set the stage (
>> https://github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/iss=
ues/31
>> ).
>>
>>
>>    - It seems like in the foundation of the methodology described in the
>>    draft lies the assumption that without adding new flows the
>>    available bandwidth is constant, does not change. While that is mostl=
y the
>>    case, there are technologies that behave differently and may change
>>    bandwidth because of the outside conditions. Some of these behaviors =
of
>>    links with variable discrete bandwidth are discussed in, for example,=
 RFC
>>    8330 <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8330/> and RFC 8625
>>    <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8625/>.
>>
>> I'm not sure I entirely understand your comment. But let me explain why
>> we are gradually adding new flows:
>>
>> 1. TCP-implementations have usually a fixed limit for the upper bound of
>> the receive window. In some networks that upper bound is lower than the =
BDP
>> of the network. Thus, the only way to reach full capacity is by having
>> multiple flows.
>> 2. Having multiple connections allows to quicker achieve full capacity i=
n
>> high-RTT networks and thus speeds up the test-duration.
>> 3. In some networks with "random" packet-loss, congestion-control may
>> come in the way of achieving full capacity. Again, multiple flows will w=
ork
>> around that.
>>
> GIM>> I might have asked several questions at once. Let me clarify what I
> am looking for:
>
>    - As I understand the method of creating the "working conditions in a
>    network" is based on certain assumptions. First, seems is that the
>    bandwidth is symmetrical between the measurement points. Second, that =
the
>    bandwidth doesn't change for the duration of the measurement session.
>    AFAIK, in the access networks, both are not necessarily always the cas=
e.
>
> We don't have the assumption that bandwidth is symmetrical (assuming, you
> mean uplink/downlink symmetry - please clarify otherwise).
>
> The load-generating algorithm runs independently for uplink and downlink
> traffic. And it is perfectly fine when both have huge asymmetry.
>
>
> Regarding the stability of the bandwidth:
> You are making a good point indeed that we assume that the bandwidth is t=
o
> some extend stable while ramping up the flows to "working conditions".
> Admittedly that assumption does not always hold, and that is one of the
> reasons why we try hard for the test to not take too long.
> I'm not sure how we could adjust the algorithm for varying bandwidth
> without introducing too much complexity. I'm open for suggestions :-)
>
>
>    - On the other hand, I might have missed how the method of creating
>    the "working conditions" guarantees a symmetrical load between the
>    measurement points.
>
> As mentioned above, we don't assume a symmetrical load. Can you show us
> where in the draft we give that impression, so we can fix that?
>
>
>>
>>    - Then, I find the motivation not to use time units to express the
>>    responsiveness metric not convincing:
>>
>>    "Latency" is a poor measure of responsiveness, since it can be hard
>>    for the general public to understand.  The units are unfamiliar
>>    ("what is a millisecond?") and counterintuitive ("100 msec - that
>>    sounds good - it's only a tenth of a second!").
>>
>>
>> Can you expand on what exactly is not convincing to you? Do you think
>> that people will mis-understand the metric or that milli-seconds is the
>> right way to communicate responsiveness to the general public?
>>
> GIM>> Let me try. We know packet delay requirements for AR, VR
> applications. I believe that gamers are familiar with these numbers too.
> The same is likely the case for the industrial automation use cases serve=
d,
> for example, by Deterministic Networking.
>
>
> I can understand that for a technical audience, milli-seconds is easy and
> familiar. A non-technical audience might be more open to accepting a new
> "higher-is-better" metric. Responsiveness is something new and abstract s=
o,
> it's kind of natural that it comes with a new unit.
>
> But I fully recognize that that's a controversial topic and can be
> discussed at length :)
>
>
> Cheers,
> Christoph
>
>
>>
>> Thanks a lot,
>> Christoph
>>
>> [1] And there are many networks that prioritize ICMP pings, thus we coul=
d
>> observe even more different results based on what protocol is used to
>> measure the latency.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 7:53 AM Marcus Ihlar <marcus.ihlar=3D
>> 40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi IPPM,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This email starts an adoption call for
>>> draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness, "Responsiveness under Working
>>> Conditions=E2=80=9D. This document specifies the =E2=80=9CRPM Test=E2=
=80=9D for measuring user
>>> experience when the network is fully loaded. The intended status of the
>>> document is Experimental.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/
>>>
>>>
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness=
-01
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This adoption call will last until *Monday, December 20*. Please review
>>> the document, and reply to this email thread to indicate if you think I=
PPM
>>> should adopt this document.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> BR,
>>>
>>> Marcus
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ippm mailing list
>>> ippm@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ippm mailing list
>> ippm@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>>
>>
>>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Christoph,<div>apologies for the belat=
ed response and thank you for sharing interesting details of you using the =
measurement method. I think that if the measurement method can not only pro=
vide the Round-trip=C2=A0Per Minute (RPM) metric but expose the network pro=
pagation and residential components of the round-trip delay, then it seems =
to me, the scope of the draft to be aligned with the charter of the IPPM WG=
 and I&#39;ll be in favor of the WG adoption of the work.</div><div>What=C2=
=A0do you think? What is the opinion of the authors and the WG?</div><div><=
br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 4:42 PM C=
hristoph Paasch &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com">cpaasch@apple.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><=
div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">Hello Greg,<br><div><br><blockquot=
e type=3D"cite"><div>On Jan 6, 2022, at 3:00 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
>Hi Christoph,<div>a happy and healthy New Year to you and All!</div></div>=
</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Happy New Year to you as=
 well!</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Thank you for your kind consideration of my not=
es and detailed responses. Please find my follow-up notes=C2=A0in-line belo=
w under the GIM&gt;&gt; tag.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div=
><br></div><div>Thanks for your replies. Please see inline:</div><div><br><=
/div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 5, =
2022 at 10:52 AM Christoph Paasch &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com" =
target=3D"_blank">cpaasch@apple.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Hello Greg,<div><br></div><div>than=
ks for your comments. Please see inline:<br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te"><div>On Dec 22, 2021, at 11:43 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gr=
egimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
</div><br><div><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">Dear Marcus, Authors, et al,<div>apologies for the belated respons=
e.</div><div>I&#39;ve read the draft and have some comments to share with y=
ou:</div><div><ul><li>as I understand it, the proposed new responsiveness m=
etric is viewed as the single indicator of a bufferbloat condition in a net=
work. As I recall,=C2=A0the discussion at Measuring Network Quality for End=
-Users workshop and on <a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/=
network-quality-workshop/?gbt=3D1&amp;index=3DcuW_1lh4DD22V28EvlPFB_NjjZY" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">the mailing list</a> indicated, that t=
here=E2=80=99s no consensus on what behaviors, symptoms can reliably signal=
 the bufferbloat. </li></ul></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquot=
e><div>We are not trying for this responsiveness metric to be &quot;the sin=
gle indicator of bufferbloat&quot;. Bufferbloat can be measured in many dif=
ferent number of ways. And each of these will produce a correct, but a diff=
erent result. Thus, &quot;bufferbloat&quot; is whatever the methodology tri=
es to detect.</div><div><br></div><div>Let me give an example of two method=
ologies that are both correct but both will produce entirely different numb=
ers :</div><div><br></div><div>If we would decide to generate the load by f=
looding the network with UDP traffic from a specific 4-tuple and measure la=
tency with parallel ICMP pings. Then, on a over-buffered FIFO queue we woul=
d measure huge latencies (thus correctly expose bufferbloat), while on a FQ=
-codel queue we would not measure any bufferbloat.</div><div><br></div><div=
>If on the other hand, the load-generating traffic is changing the source-p=
ort for every single UDP-packet, then in both the FIFO-queue and the FQ-cod=
el queue we will measure huge amounts of bufferbloat.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Thus, these two methods both produced correct results but with hugely d=
ifferent numbers in the FQ-codel case. [1]</div><div><br></div><div>Now, wh=
ile both methods measure some variant of bufferbloat, they both don&#39;t m=
easure a realistic usage of the network.</div></div></div></div></blockquot=
e><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for the insights. It seems to me that what the=
 method can demonstrate is rather the level of efficiency of the AQM in the=
 network for a particular class of applications.</div></div></div></div></d=
iv></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, that is a good description. It is =
for a &quot;particular class of applications&quot; and we are trying to mak=
e this class of applications representative of a &quot;typical user-scenari=
o&quot;. (admittedly, we can debate forever on what kind of applications ar=
e representative and I would love to have that debate :-)).</div><div><br><=
/div><div>On the point of &quot;efficiency of the AQM&quot;. I would go eve=
n further that it&#39;s not only AQM but also the client- and server-side i=
mplementations of these applications (as noted further below).</div><div><b=
r></div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex"><div><div><div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>That is why the &quot=
;Responsiveness under working conditions&quot; tries to clearly specify how=
 the load is generated and how the latency is being measured. And it does n=
ot measure &quot;bufferbloat&quot; but it measures &quot;responsiveness und=
er working conditions&quot; based on the methodology that is being used (us=
ing HTTP/2 or HTTP/3, multiple flows, ...). It does expose bufferbloat whic=
h can happen in the network. It also exposes certain server-side behaviors =
that can cause (huge amounts of) additional latency - those behaviors are t=
ypically not called &quot;bufferbloat&quot;.</div></div></div></div></block=
quote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for pointing out that the result of the RT=
T measurement has two contributing factors - network and server.</div></div=
></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, servers contribute=
 as do the client-side implementations. It&#39;s all three (client, network=
, server) that need to work &quot;correctly&quot; to achieve good responsiv=
eness. Btw., as we are now gathering more experience with our methodology i=
n different environments we find that the biggest portions of latency actua=
lly come from the server-side. We see several seconds of latency introduced=
 by the HTTP/2 and TCP implementations.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
<div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>It s=
eems worth enhancing the method to localize each contribution and measure t=
hem separately.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><d=
iv>With the latency measuring probes being sent on load-bearing connections=
 and separate connections and with the separate connections serving to meas=
ure DNS/TCP/... individually, the different data-points actually allow to l=
ocalize to some extend.</div><div><br></div><div>However, I would be reluct=
ant to dive too deep into localization/trouble-shooting/debugging of networ=
ks as part of this I-D. As this opens a whole new can of worms. We could th=
en start thinking about sending latency-probes while playing with the IP TT=
L to find which router is introducing the latency,... It&#39;s an entirely =
different research-topic IMO :-) Dave Taht was thinking of starting somethi=
ng along these lines (<a href=3D"https://github.com/dtaht/wtbb" target=3D"_=
blank">https://github.com/dtaht/wtbb</a>).</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1=
px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div><ul></ul></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote ty=
pe=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div><ul><li>It seems that it would be reasonable to first defin=
e what is being measured, characterized=C2=A0by the responsiveness metric. =
Having a document that discusses and defines the bufferbloat would be great=
.</li></ul></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>I agree th=
at there is a lack of definition for what &quot;bufferbloat&quot; really is=
.</div><div><br></div><div>The way we look at &quot;responsiveness under wo=
rking conditions&quot; is that it measures the latency in conditions that m=
ay realistically happen in worst-case scenarios with end-users/implementati=
ons that are non-malicious (non-malicious to exclude the UDP-flooding scena=
rio).</div><div><br></div><div>Thus, I assume we should make a better job a=
t explaining this. The lack of a formal definition of &quot;bufferbloat&quo=
t; doesn&#39;t help and thus we are indeed using this term a bit freely in =
the current draft. We will improve the Introduction to better set the stage=
 (<a href=3D"https://github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsi=
veness/issues/31" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/network-quality/draf=
t-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/issues/31</a>).</div><div><br></div><blockquo=
te type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div><ul><li>It seems like in the foundation of the methodo=
logy described in the draft lies the assumption=C2=A0that without adding ne=
w flows the available=C2=A0bandwidth=C2=A0is constant, does not change. Whi=
le that is mostly the case, there are technologies that behave differently =
and may change bandwidth because of the outside conditions. Some of these b=
ehaviors of links with variable discrete=C2=A0bandwidth are discussed in, f=
or example,=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8330/" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">RFC 8330</a>=C2=A0and <a href=3D"https://=
datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8625/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">RFC=
 8625</a>.</li></ul></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>I=
&#39;m not sure I entirely understand your comment. But let me explain why =
we are gradually adding new flows:</div><div><br></div><div>1. TCP-implemen=
tations have usually a fixed limit for the upper bound of the receive windo=
w. In some networks that upper bound is lower than the BDP of the network. =
Thus, the only way to reach full capacity is by having multiple flows.</div=
><div>2. Having multiple connections allows to quicker achieve full capacit=
y in high-RTT networks and thus speeds up the test-duration.</div><div>3. I=
n some networks with &quot;random&quot; packet-loss, congestion-control may=
 come in the way of achieving full capacity. Again, multiple flows will wor=
k around that.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I might=
 have asked several questions at once. Let me clarify what I am looking for=
:</div><div><ul><li>As I understand the method of creating the &quot;workin=
g conditions in a network&quot; is based on certain assumptions. First, see=
ms is that the bandwidth is symmetrical between the measurement points. Sec=
ond, that the bandwidth doesn&#39;t change for the duration of the measurem=
ent session. AFAIK, in the access networks, both are not necessarily always=
 the case.</li></ul></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>We don&=
#39;t have the assumption that bandwidth is symmetrical (assuming, you mean=
 uplink/downlink symmetry - please clarify otherwise).</div><div><br></div>=
<div>The load-generating algorithm runs independently for uplink and downli=
nk traffic. And it is perfectly fine when both have huge asymmetry.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div><br></div><div>Regarding the stability of the bandwidth:<=
/div><div>You are making a good point indeed that we assume that the bandwi=
dth is to some extend stable while ramping up the flows to &quot;working co=
nditions&quot;. Admittedly that assumption does not always hold, and that i=
s one of the reasons why we try hard for the test to not take too long.</di=
v><div>I&#39;m not sure how we could adjust the algorithm for varying bandw=
idth without introducing too much complexity. I&#39;m open for suggestions =
:-)</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><ul><li>On the other hand, I might have miss=
ed how the method of creating the &quot;working conditions&quot; guarantees=
 a symmetrical load between the measurement points.</li></ul></div></div></=
div></div></div></blockquote><div>As mentioned above, we don&#39;t assume a=
 symmetrical load. Can you show us where in the draft we give that impressi=
on, so we can fix that?</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"au=
to"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><ul><li>Then, I =
find the motivation not to use time units to express the responsiveness met=
ric not convincing:<br></li></ul></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;L=
atency&quot; is a poor measure of responsiveness, since it can be hard</div=
></div></div><div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0for the general public to understa=
nd.=C2=A0 The units are unfamiliar</div></div></div><div><div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0(&quot;what is a millisecond?&quot;) and counterintuitive (&quot;100 =
msec - that</div></div></div><div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0sounds good - it&#=
39;s only a tenth of a second!&quot;).</div></div></div></blockquote></div>=
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Can you expand on what exactly is no=
t convincing to you? Do you think that people will mis-understand the metri=
c or that milli-seconds is the right way to communicate responsiveness to t=
he general public?</div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Let me tr=
y. We know packet delay requirements for AR, VR applications. I believe tha=
t gamers are familiar with these numbers too. The same is likely the case f=
or the industrial automation use cases served, for example, by Deterministi=
c Networking.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div=
>I can understand that for a technical audience, milli-seconds is easy and =
familiar. A non-technical audience might be more open to accepting a new &q=
uot;higher-is-better&quot; metric. Responsiveness is something new and abst=
ract so, it&#39;s kind of natural that it comes with a new unit.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>But I fully recognize that that&#39;s a controversial topic =
and can be discussed at length :)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>C=
heers,</div><div>Christoph</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Th=
anks a lot,</div><div>Christoph</div><div><br></div><div>[1] And there are =
many networks that prioritize ICMP pings, thus we could observe even more d=
ifferent results based on what protocol is used to measure the latency.</di=
v><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"auto"><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 7:5=
3 AM Marcus Ihlar &lt;marcus.ihlar=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40ericsson.com@dmarc=
.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex=
">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Hi IPPM,<u></u><=
u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><u><=
/u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12pt">This email starts an adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiven=
ess, &quot;Responsiveness under Working Conditions=E2=80=9D. This document =
specifies the =E2=80=9CRPM Test=E2=80=9D for measuring user experience when=
 the
 network is fully loaded. The intended status of the document is Experiment=
al. =C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size:12pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/d=
raft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/</a><u></u>=
<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsive=
ness-01" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/=
doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-01</a></span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"=
font-size:12pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12pt">This adoption call will last until
<b>Monday, December 20</b>. Please review the document, and reply to this e=
mail thread to indicate if you think IPPM should adopt this document.<u></u=
><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:12pt">BR,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:12pt">Marcus <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></=
u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br>
ippm mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ippm@=
ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm" rel=3D"noreferrer no=
referrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm</a><=
br>
</blockquote></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>ippm mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ippm@ietf.org</a><br><a hre=
f=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm" target=3D"_blank">https://=
www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br></di=
v></blockquote></div></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br></div></blockquote></div></div>

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I agree with Guo Jun and support its progressing.

Cheers,
Xiao Min
------------------原始邮件------------------
发件人：郭俊10086979
收件人：zhoutianran=40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org;
抄送人：ippm@ietf.org;
日 期 ：2022年02月10日 15:43
主 题 ：Re: [ippm]  FW: New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt
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Hi Tianran,
I have review the new version, LAG performance measurement is a important feature,I think this work is very meaningful. I support it and hope it can evolve forward.
In addition, I have a question below:

"To support the micro TWAMP session, a new command, Request-TW-Micro-
Session (TBD2), is defined in this document.  The Request-TW-Micro-
Session command is based on the TWAMP Request-Session command, and
uses the message format as described in Section 3.5 of TWAMP [RFC5357]. "
My question is: member links have the same source IP 、destination IP 、source port number, and destination port number, if use the message format as described in Section 3.5 of TWAMP[RFC5357]. How to distinguish member link session of LAG?




郭俊
软件平台南京开发三部/有线研究院/有线产品经营部
中兴通讯股份有限公司
南京市雨花台区紫荆花路68号南研一期2楼，210012
T: xxxxxxx     M: 18105183663
E: guo.jun2@zte.com.cn
发件人：TianranZhou
收件人：IETF IPPM WG (ippm@ietf.org);
日 期 ：2022年01月24日 14:23
主 题 ：[ippm] FW: New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt
Hi WG,
We think this is an useful work on adapting OWAMP/TWAMP in LAG performance measurement.
We updated this draft based on the comments from the meeting discussion and mailing list.
Thanks for all the suggestions.
More reviews and comments are welcome.
Cheers,
Tianran
-----Original Message-----
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2022 2:17 PM
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; Guo Jun <guo.jun2@zte.com.cn>; Jun Guo <guo.jun2@zte.com.cn>; Rakesh Gandhi <rgandhi@cisco.com>; Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>; Zhenqiang Li <li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com>
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt
A new version of I-D, draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt
has been successfully submitted by Tianran Zhou and posted to the IETF repository.
Name:        draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag
Revision:    02
Title:        One-way/Two-way Active Measurement Protocol Extensions for Performance Measurement on LAG
Document date:    2022-01-24
Group:        Individual Submission
Pages:        13
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag/
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag
Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-li-ippm-otwamp-on-lag-02
Abstract:
This document defines extensions to One-way Active Measurement
Protocol (OWAMP), and Two-way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP) to
implement performance measurement on every member link of a Link
Aggregation Group (LAG).  Knowing the measured metrics of each member
link of a LAG enables operators to enforce the performance based
traffic steering policy across the member links.
The IETF Secretariat
_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Test Protocol for One-way IP Capacity Measurement
        Authors         : Len Ciavattone
                          Al Morton
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-protocol-00.txt
	Pages           : 30
	Date            : 2022-02-10

Abstract:
   This memo addresses the problem of protocol support for measuring
   Network Capacity metrics in RFC 9097, where the method deploys a
   feedback channel from the receiver to control the sender's
   transmission rate in near-real-time.  This memo defines a simple
   protocol to perform the RFC 9097 (and other) measurements.

   See Section 10: The authors seek feedback to determine what
   additional features will be necessary for an IETF Standards Track
   Protocol, beyond what is present in the running code available now.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-protocol/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-protocol-00


Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts



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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/J5XbcXtuJN0o4Pr8aZMZUBV57hw>
Subject: Re: [ippm] draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol
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Hi R=FCdiger,

[acm]
Thanks for these!  I've finished with your comments and submitted the 00-wg=
 version for chair approval...


6.2.  Test Activation Request - server response

{acm] now it's 6.2 Test Activation Response


...   When the server sends the Test Activation response back, it SHALL set
   the cmd Response field to:
[acm] s/response/Response/

RG: Server Test Activation Reply (or Response - please apply stringently th=
rough the text)
When the server responds by a Test Activation Reply, it...
[acm]
1,$ s/Test Activation Reply/Test Activation Request/g
----

   The server SHALL include all the test parameters again to make the
   client aware of any changes.


RG: The server SHALL repeat all test parameters to indicate changes to the =
client.

[acm] good, thanks.

----

8.  Stopping the Test

   When the test duration timer on the server expires, it SHALL set the
   connection test action to STOP and also starts marking all outgoing
   load or status PDUs with a test action of STOP1.


RG: ...and mark all outgoing load...

[acm] good change, much tighter.
----

10.  Security Considerations

A. Unathenticated mode (for all phases)

Unauthenticated
    ^^^^
thx again,
Al




From: Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 3:51 AM
To: MORTON JR., AL <acmorton@att.com>
Cc: ippm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ippm] draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol


Hi Al,



Thanks for clarifications, I agree to your proposals.



Yes, if a test running for 10 sec at line-speed can reliably only be invoke=
d willingly by the party having to cope with the congested link, then an em=
ergency-stop likely isn't required.



Regards,



Ruediger









##################



Hi R=FCdiger, Thanks again for your comments!



We discussed some of them at our coding project meeting today.

Please see [acm] for replies.



All proposals below are implemented in the working text.



Al



############



Some comments:



Section  3.  Protocol Overview



   The client requires configuration of a test direction parameter

   (upstream or downstream test) as well as the hostname or IP address

   of the server in order to begin the setup and configuration exchanges

   with the server.



RG: The draft also mentions a sender and a receiver. Both, client and serve=
r

may act as sender and receiver. This depends on the test direction,

upstream or downstream.



Words to that appear in "9.  Method of Measurement", at the end of the doc.



[acm]

OK. Let's try this for the paragraph above:



The client requires configuration of a test direction parameter

(upstream or downstream test, where the client performs the role of

                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

sender or receiver, respectively) as well as the hostname or IP address

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

of the server in order to begin the setup and configuration exchanges

with the server.





4.  Stopping the Test: The server initiates the phase to stop the

       test by setting the STOP1 indication in load PDUs or sstatus

       feedback messages.                                  ( ^^^^)



RG: Would it be worth a thought to enable the client to terminate a test?



[acm]

This sentence in section 3 might benefit from some clarification. I added:



4. Stopping the Test: When the specified test duration has been reached, th=
e server

                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

   initiates the phase to stop the test by setting the STOP1 indication in =
load

   PDUs or status feedback messages. The client acknowledges by setting the=
 STOP2

   in load PDUs or status feedback messages. ...



IOW, neither the server nor the client can stop a test prematurely in norma=
l

operation. Note that the protocol overlays the STOP indication on existing

measurement and feedback traffic. It's very simple to implement.



Alternatively, a client (or server) can stop sending traffic

(load PDUs or status feedback messages, depending on its role).

An activity timer will expire at the opposite end, and both

client and server will close the connection. The timer value

can be set to expire as quickly as needed (some may be sensitive

to the amount of load PDUs sent after a test appears to fail).





##########





5.  Setup Request and Response Exchange





The message format isn't "TLV". Is the protocol extensible (e.g. could secu=
rity be adapted to future needs)?



[acm]

All the message formats/PDUs are extensible. A specific set of formats matc=
h a

protocol version number (currently 8 in the draft you reviewed).

Our goal is to make version 9 and higher backward-compatible.

We should be able to add fields to the PDUs and leave earlier parts

untouched...





##########



6.2.  Test Activation Request - server response



.....The remaining 28 octets of the Test Activation Request (normally read



RG: A bit worrying, seems to be set by the sender in the reply to a request=
 only. See editorials...



[acm]

Here's the full context:

   If the client has requested an upstream test, the server SHALL include

   the transmission parameters from the first row of the sending rate table=
.



   The remaining 28 octets of the Test Activation Request (normally read

   from the first row of the sending rate table) are called the

   Sending Rate Structure, and SHALL be organized as follows:

...



So, the Test Activation Response (the new name for section 6.2)

uses the Sending Rate Structure to communicate a starting send rate

for the test, IF the client is the sender, as in an upstream test.



Perhaps we can clarify:

   If the client has requested an upstream test, the server SHALL include

   the transmission parameters from the first row of the sending rate table

   in the Sending Rate Structure (defined below).





##########





7.1.  Test Packet PDU and Roles



.... On the other hand, the test configuration MAY use a fixed sending

   rate requested by the client,



RG: contains descriptive text about the method (e.g. decision on the

sending rate). The text there certainly is correct. I wonder, whether

a reference replacing the text would be sufficient?



[acm]

Actually, I don't see anything except protocol details near the OTOH

sentence above.



We can add a second clarifying sentence in the paragraph below:

   The client MAY communicate the desired fixed rate in its activation

   request. The reasons to conduct a fixed-rate test include stable measure=
ment

   at the maximum determined by the load adjustment (search) algorithm,

   or the desire to test at a known subscribed rate without searching.





RG:  Does the MAY here introduce a new method? If it does, would that requi=
re

to update the RFC specifying the method?



[acm]

I don't think an update is necessary. We mentioned this possibility

immediately, in RFC 9097 Section 2:



   *  If a network operator is certain of the IP-Layer Capacity to be

      validated, then testing MAY start with a fixed-rate test at the

      IP-Layer Capacity and avoid activating the load adjustment

      algorithm.



###########



10.  Security Considerations





RG: would a receiver (client and host) require an "Emergency Stop" message?



[acm]

When would the client or server send this message?



As mentioned above, either end can initiate a premature stop, and timer

expiration takes care of the test termination at the opposite end.



RG: If yes, should it require authentication in order to avoid an attacker

from unwanted test termination?



[acm]

No "Emergency Stop" message, no attack.



#########





RG: Would a three-way-handshake make sense to activate testing?

(noting that the sender in that case also must be protected against

opening of unbounded numbers of tests). A three way handshake protects

against forged test set up messages.



[acm]

The combination of Test Setup and Test Activation define a 4-way handshake.





RG: What else could be forged?

[acm] everything in the current version, except the Authentication string.





RG: Do these require authentication or at least a discussion?



    Response message feedback (indicating ramp-up/no drop where there's con=
gestion or the other way around, congestion where there is none).

    Stop messages (unwanted termination)

    Could a host or a client be tricked into persistently acting as a sende=
r?



[acm]

Yes, of course! We want to supply sufficient AUTH and integrity options whe=
n

needed.  That's partly why we petitioned for WG Adoption, to get an early S=
EC-DIR

review or two.



However:



I have begin to think that we only need 4 security modes of operation:

1. Unauthenticated (in the protocol now)

2. Password-protected test setup (in the protocol now)

3. Encrypted Test Setup exchanges

4. Run the protocol inside an encrypted tunnel



#4 will have performance implications for high capacity measurements

on small hosts (in residences, GWs, WLAN devices, etc.)



FYI -  a client cannot be tricked into persistently acting as a sender.

The command that starts the client process determines this role.





########





Editorials



[acm]

Thanks for these!  I'll get to them in a second pass...



From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org><mailto:&lt;ippm-bounces@ietf.org&gt;> On=
 Behalf Of Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de<mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>

Sent: Tuesday, December 7, 2021 3:01 AM

To: marcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:marcus.ihlar=3D40er=
icsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>

Cc: ippm@ietf.org<mailto:ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [ippm] draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol



Hi Marcus,



I support adoption.



Regards, Ruediger





Some comments:



Section  3.  Protocol Overview



   The client requires configuration of a test direction parameter

   (upstream or downstream test) as well as the hostname or IP address

   of the server in order to begin the setup and configuration exchanges

   with the server.



RG: The draft also mentions a sender and a receiver. Both, client and serve=
r

may act as sender and receiver. This depends on the test direction,

upstream or downstream.

Words to that appear in "9.  Method of Measurement", at the end of the doc.





4.  Stopping the Test: The server initiates the phase to stop the

       test by setting the STOP1 indication in load PDUs or sstatus

       feedback messages.                                                  =
    ( ^^^^)



RG: Would it be worth a thought to enable the client to terminate a test?



##########



5.  Setup Request and Response Exchange



The message format isn't "TLV". Is the protocol extensible (e.g. could secu=
rity be adapted to future needs)?



##########



6.2.  Test Activation Request - server response



.....The remaining 28 octets of the Test Activation Request (normally read



RG: A bit worrying, seems to be set by the sender in the reply to a request=
 only. See editorials...



##########



7.1.  Test Packet PDU and Roles



.... On the other hand, the test configuration MAY use a fixed sending

   rate requested by the client,



RG: contains descriptive text about the method (e.g. decision on the sendin=
g rate). The text

there certainly is correct. I wonder, whether a reference replacing the tex=
t would be sufficient?



RG:  Does the MAY here introduce a new method? If it does, would that requi=
re to update the

RFC specifying the method?



###########



10.  Security Considerations



RG: would a receiver (client and host) require an "Emergency Stop" message?=
 If yes, should it require authentication in order to avoid an attacker fro=
m unwanted test termination?



Would a three-way-handshake make sense to activate testing? (noting that th=
e sender in that case also must be protected against opening of unbounded n=
umbers of tests). A three way handshake protects against forged test set up=
 messages.



What else could be forged? Do these require authentication or at least a di=
scussion?



  *   Response message feedback (indicating ramp-up/no drop where there's c=
ongestion or the other way around, congestion where there is none).

  *   Stop messages (unwanted termination)

  *   Could a host or a client be tricked into persistently acting as a sen=
der?

########





Editorials



6.2.  Test Activation Request - server response



...   When the server sends the Test Activation response back, it SHALL set

   the cmd Response field to:



RG: Server Test Activation Reply (or Response - please apply stringently th=
rough the text)

When the server responds by a Test Activation Reply, it...



----



   The server SHALL include all the test parameters again to make the

   client aware of any changes.



RG: The server SHALL repeat all test parameters to indicate changes to the =
client.



----



8.  Stopping the Test



   When the test duration timer on the server expires, it SHALL set the

   connection test action to STOP and also starts marking all outgoing

   load or status PDUs with a test action of STOP1.



RG: ...and mark all outgoing load...



----



10.  Security Considerations



A. Unathenticated mode (for all phases)



Unauthenticated

    ^^^^



Von: ippm ippm-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:ippm-bo=
unces@ietf.org%3cmailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org>> Im Auftrag von Marcus Ihlar

Gesendet: Montag, 6. Dezember 2021 16:53

An: ippm@ietf.org<mailto:ippm@ietf.org<mailto:ippm@ietf.org%3cmailto:ippm@i=
etf.org>>

Betreff: [ippm] draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol



Hi IPPM,



This email starts an adoption call for draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-pr=
otocol, " Test Protocol for One-way IP Capacity Measurement".  This documen=
t is intended for Standards Track and defines a protocol for measuring Netw=
ork Capacity metrics defined in RFC 9097 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/=
rfc9097/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc909=
7/__;!!BhdT!0XFagPVddMPqLtUl1ej6zNK69Ogn2sgujZ23jLU92MHMnHJnppFGox6tI3-r$><=
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9097/*3Chttp=
s:/urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9097/__;!!BhdT!0X=
FagPVddMPqLtUl1ej6zNK69Ogn2sgujZ23jLU92MHMnHJnppFGox6tI3-r$*3E__;JSU!!BhdT!=
1qVUfqn2jow5EAH196PRM4gYdPZVXHWD-KBkL09K7O2c_0-Afw-glLh3PZlo$>)$>).



https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol=
/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morton-=
ippm-capacity-metric-protocol/__;!!BhdT!0XFagPVddMPqLtUl1ej6zNK69Ogn2sgujZ2=
3jLU92MHMnHJnppFGoww_Z_IZ$><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.=
ietf.org/doc/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol/*3Chttps:/urldefens=
e.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metri=
c-protocol/__;!!BhdT!0XFagPVddMPqLtUl1ej6zNK69Ogn2sgujZ23jLU92MHMnHJnppFGow=
w_Z_IZ$*3E__;JSU!!BhdT!1qVUfqn2jow5EAH196PRM4gYdPZVXHWD-KBkL09K7O2c_0-Afw-g=
lAiaJmFG$>

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-pro=
tocol-02<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/d=
raft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol-02__;!!BhdT!0XFagPVddMPqLtUl1ej6z=
NK69Ogn2sgujZ23jLU92MHMnHJnppFGo-rAHSKU$><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https=
:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol-=
02*3Chttps:/urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-=
morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol-02__;!!BhdT!0XFagPVddMPqLtUl1ej6zNK69O=
gn2sgujZ23jLU92MHMnHJnppFGo-rAHSKU$*3E__;JSU!!BhdT!1qVUfqn2jow5EAH196PRM4gY=
dPZVXHWD-KBkL09K7O2c_0-Afw-glLGZul8p$>



This adoption call will last until Monday, December 20. Please review the d=
ocument, and reply to this email thread to indicate if you think IPPM shoul=
d adopt this document.



BR,

Marcus




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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"footer"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"index heading"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"35" SemiHidden=3D"true" Unhide=
WhenUsed=3D"true" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"caption"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"table of figures"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"envelope address"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"envelope return"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"footnote reference"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"annotation reference"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"line number"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"page number"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"endnote reference"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"endnote text"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"table of authorities"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"macro"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"toa heading"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"List"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"List Bullet"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"List Number"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"List 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"List 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"List 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"List 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"List Bullet 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"List Bullet 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"List Bullet 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"List Bullet 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"List Number 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"List Number 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"List Number 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"List Number 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"10" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"T=
itle"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Closing"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Signature"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"1" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideW=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Body Text"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Body Text Indent"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"List Continue"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"List Continue 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"List Continue 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"List Continue 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"List Continue 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Message Header"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"11" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"S=
ubtitle"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Salutation"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Date"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Body Text First Indent"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Body Text First Indent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Note Heading"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Body Text 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Body Text 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Body Text Indent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Body Text Indent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Block Text"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Hyperlink"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"FollowedHyperlink"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"22" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"S=
trong"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"20" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"E=
mphasis"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Document Map"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Plain Text"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"E-mail Signature"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"HTML Top of Form"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"HTML Bottom of Form"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Normal (Web)"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"HTML Acronym"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"HTML Address"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"HTML Cite"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"HTML Code"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"HTML Definition"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"HTML Keyboard"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"HTML Preformatted"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"HTML Sample"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"HTML Typewriter"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"HTML Variable"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Normal Table"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"annotation subject"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"No List"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Outline List 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Outline List 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Outline List 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Simple 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Simple 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Simple 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Classic 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Classic 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Classic 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Classic 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Colorful 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Colorful 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Columns 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Columns 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Columns 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Columns 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Grid 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Grid 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Grid 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Grid 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Grid 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Grid 8"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table List 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table List 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table List 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table List 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table List 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table List 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table List 7"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table List 8"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table 3D effects 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table 3D effects 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Contemporary"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Elegant"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Professional"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Subtle 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Subtle 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Web 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Web 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Balloon Text"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" Name=3D"Table Grid"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Theme"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" Name=3D"Placeholder Te=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"1" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"No=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" Name=3D"Light Shading"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" Name=3D"Light List"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" Name=3D"Light Grid"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1"/=
>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" Name=3D"Medium Shading 2"/=
>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" Name=3D"Medium List 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" Name=3D"Medium List 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"67" Name=3D"Medium Grid 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"68" Name=3D"Medium Grid 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"69" Name=3D"Medium Grid 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" Name=3D"Dark List"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" Name=3D"Colorful Shading"/=
>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"72" Name=3D"Colorful List"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" Name=3D"Colorful Grid"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" Name=3D"Light Shading Acce=
nt 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" Name=3D"Light List Accent =
1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" Name=3D"Light Grid Accent =
1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1 A=
ccent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" Name=3D"Medium Shading 2 A=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" Name=3D"Medium List 1 Acce=
nt 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" Name=3D"Revision"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"34" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"L=
ist Paragraph"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"29" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"Q=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"30" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"I=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" Name=3D"Medium List 2 Acce=
nt 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"67" Name=3D"Medium Grid 1 Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"68" Name=3D"Medium Grid 2 Acce=
nt 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"69" Name=3D"Medium Grid 3 Acce=
nt 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" Name=3D"Dark List Accent 1=
"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" Name=3D"Colorful Shading A=
ccent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"72" Name=3D"Colorful List Acce=
nt 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" Name=3D"Colorful Grid Acce=
nt 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" Name=3D"Light Shading Acce=
nt 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" Name=3D"Light List Accent =
2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" Name=3D"Light Grid Accent =
2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1 A=
ccent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" Name=3D"Medium Shading 2 A=
ccent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" Name=3D"Medium List 1 Acce=
nt 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" Name=3D"Medium List 2 Acce=
nt 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"67" Name=3D"Medium Grid 1 Acce=
nt 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"68" Name=3D"Medium Grid 2 Acce=
nt 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"69" Name=3D"Medium Grid 3 Acce=
nt 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" Name=3D"Dark List Accent 2=
"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" Name=3D"Colorful Shading A=
ccent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"72" Name=3D"Colorful List Acce=
nt 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" Name=3D"Colorful Grid Acce=
nt 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" Name=3D"Light Shading Acce=
nt 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" Name=3D"Light List Accent =
3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" Name=3D"Light Grid Accent =
3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1 A=
ccent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" Name=3D"Medium Shading 2 A=
ccent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" Name=3D"Medium List 1 Acce=
nt 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" Name=3D"Medium List 2 Acce=
nt 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"67" Name=3D"Medium Grid 1 Acce=
nt 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"68" Name=3D"Medium Grid 2 Acce=
nt 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"69" Name=3D"Medium Grid 3 Acce=
nt 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" Name=3D"Dark List Accent 3=
"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" Name=3D"Colorful Shading A=
ccent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"72" Name=3D"Colorful List Acce=
nt 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" Name=3D"Colorful Grid Acce=
nt 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" Name=3D"Light Shading Acce=
nt 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" Name=3D"Light List Accent =
4"/>
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</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" style=3D"tab-interv=
al:.5in;word-wrap:break-word">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">Hi R=FCdiger,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">[<span class=3D"SpellE">ac=
m</span>]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">Thanks for these!<span sty=
le=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;
</span>I've finished with your comments and submitted the 00-wg version for=
 chair approval...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">6.2.<span style=3D"mso-spa=
cerun:yes">&nbsp;
</span>Test Activation Request - server response<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">{<span class=3D"SpellE">ac=
m</span>] now it's 6.2 Test Activation Response<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&#8230;<span style=3D"mso-=
spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>When the server sends the Test Activation response back, it SHALL se=
t<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-spaceru=
n:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>the <span class=3D"SpellE">cmd</span> Response field to:<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">[<span class=3D"SpellE">ac=
m</span>] s/response/Response/<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">RG: Server Test Activation=
 Reply (or Response &#8211; please apply stringently through the text)<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">When the server responds b=
y a Test Activation Reply, it&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">[<span class=3D"SpellE">ac=
m</span>]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">1,$ s/Test Activation Repl=
y/Test Activation Request/g<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">----<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-spaceru=
n:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>The server SHALL include all the test parameters again to make the<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-spaceru=
n:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>client aware of any changes.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">RG: The server SHALL repea=
t all test parameters to indicate changes to the client.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">[<span class=3D"SpellE">ac=
m</span>] good, thanks.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">----<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">8.<span style=3D"mso-space=
run:yes">&nbsp;
</span>Stopping the Test<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-spaceru=
n:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>When the test duration timer on the server expires, it SHALL set the=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-spaceru=
n:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>connection test action to STOP and also starts marking all outgoing<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-spaceru=
n:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>load or status PDUs with a test action of STOP1.<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">RG: &#8230;and mark all ou=
tgoing load&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">[<span class=3D"SpellE">ac=
m</span>] good change, much tighter.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">----<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">10.<span style=3D"mso-spac=
erun:yes">&nbsp;
</span>Security Considerations<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">A.
<span class=3D"SpellE">Unathenticated</span> mode (for all phases)<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">Unauthenticated<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><span style=3D"mso-spaceru=
n:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>^^^^<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">thx again,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">Al<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;m=
so-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"mso-fareast-font-family:&=
quot;Times New Roman&quot;"> Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de &lt;Ruediger.Geib@tel=
ekom.de&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, January 28, 2022 3:51 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> MORTON JR., AL &lt;acmorton@att.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ippm@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [ippm] draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<pre>Hi Al,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Thanks for clarifications, I agree to your proposals.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Yes, if a test running for 10 sec at line-speed can reliably only be i=
nvoked willingly by the party having to cope with the congested link, then =
an emergency-stop likely isn&#8217;t required. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Regards,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Ruediger<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>##################<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Hi R=FCdiger, Thanks again for your comments!<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>We discussed some of them at our coding project meeting today.<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre>Please see [acm] for replies.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>All proposals below are implemented in the working text.<o:p></o:p></p=
re>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Al<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>############<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Some comments:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Section&nbsp; 3.&nbsp; Protocol Overview<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; The client requires configuration of a test direction par=
ameter<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; (upstream or downstream test) as well as the hostname or =
IP address<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; of the server in order to begin the setup and configurati=
on exchanges<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; with the server.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>RG: The draft also mentions a sender and a receiver. Both, client and =
server<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>may act as sender and receiver. This depends on the test direction,<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>upstream or downstream.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Words to that appear in &quot;9.&nbsp; Method of Measurement&quot;, at=
 the end of the doc.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>[acm]<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>OK. Let's try this for the paragraph above:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>The client requires configuration of a test direction parameter<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre>(upstream or downstream test, where the client performs the role of<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre>sender or receiver, respectively) as well as the hostname or IP addres=
s<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>of the server in order to begin the setup and configuration exchanges<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>with the server.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>4.&nbsp; Stopping the Test: The server initiates the phase to stop the=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;test by setting the STOP1 indicat=
ion in load PDUs or sstatus<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; feedback messages.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ( ^^^^)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>RG: Would it be worth a thought to enable the client to terminate a te=
st?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>[acm]<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This sentence in section 3 might benefit from some clarification. I ad=
ded:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>4. Stopping the Test: When the specified test duration has been reache=
d, the server<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^=
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; initiates the phase to stop the test by setting the STOP1=
 indication in load<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; PDUs or status feedback messages. The client acknowledges=
 by setting the STOP2<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; in load PDUs or status feedback messages. ...<o:p></o:p><=
/pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>IOW, neither the server nor the client can stop a test prematurely in =
normal<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>operation. Note that the protocol overlays the STOP indication on exis=
ting<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>measurement and feedback traffic. It's very simple to implement.<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Alternatively, a client (or server) can stop sending traffic<o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre>(load PDUs or status feedback messages, depending on its role).<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre>An activity timer will expire at the opposite end, and both<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre>client and server will close the connection. The timer value<o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre>can be set to expire as quickly as needed (some may be sensitive<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre>to the amount of load PDUs sent after a test appears to fail).<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>##########<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>5.&nbsp; Setup Request and Response Exchange<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>The message format isn't &quot;TLV&quot;. Is the protocol extensible (=
e.g. could security be adapted to future needs)?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>[acm]<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>All the message formats/PDUs are extensible. A specific set of formats=
 match a<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>protocol version number (currently 8 in the draft you reviewed).<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre>Our goal is to make version 9 and higher backward-compatible.<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre>We should be able to add fields to the PDUs and leave earlier parts<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>untouched...<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>##########<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>6.2.&nbsp; Test Activation Request - server response<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>.....The remaining 28 octets of the Test Activation Request (normally =
read<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>RG: A bit worrying, seems to be set by the sender in the reply to a re=
quest only. See editorials...<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>[acm]<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Here's the full context:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; If the client has requested an upstream test, the server =
SHALL include<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the transmission parameters from the first row of the sen=
ding rate table.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; The remaining 28 octets of the Test Activation Request (n=
ormally read<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; from the first row of the sending rate table) are called =
the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; Sending Rate Structure, and SHALL be organized as follows=
:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>...<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>So, the Test Activation Response (the new name for section 6.2)<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre>uses the Sending Rate Structure to communicate a starting send rate<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>for the test, IF the client is the sender, as in an upstream test.<o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Perhaps we can clarify:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; If the client has requested an upstream test, the server =
SHALL include<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the transmission parameters from the first row of the sen=
ding rate table<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; in the Sending Rate Structure (defined below).<o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>##########<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>7.1.&nbsp; Test Packet PDU and Roles<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>.... On the other hand, the test configuration MAY use a fixed sending=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; rate requested by the client,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>RG: contains descriptive text about the method (e.g. decision on the<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>sending rate). The text there certainly is correct. I wonder, whether<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>a reference replacing the text would be sufficient?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>[acm]<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Actually, I don't see anything except protocol details near the OTOH<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>sentence above.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>We can add a second clarifying sentence in the paragraph below:<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; The client MAY communicate the desired fixed rate in its =
activation<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; request. The reasons to conduct a fixed-rate test include=
 stable measurement<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; at the maximum determined by the load adjustment (search)=
 algorithm,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; or the desire to test at a known subscribed rate without =
searching.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>RG:&nbsp; Does the MAY here introduce a new method? If it does, would =
that require<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>to update the RFC specifying the method?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>[acm]<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I don't think an update is necessary. We mentioned this possibility<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>immediately, in RFC 9097 Section 2:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; If a network operator is certain of the IP-Layer =
Capacity to be<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; validated, then testing MAY start with =
a fixed-rate test at the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IP-Layer Capacity and avoid activating =
the load adjustment<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; algorithm.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>###########<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>10.&nbsp; Security Considerations<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>RG: would a receiver (client and host) require an &quot;Emergency Stop=
&quot; message?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>[acm]<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>When would the client or server send this message?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>As mentioned above, either end can initiate a premature stop, and time=
r<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>expiration takes care of the test termination at the opposite end.<o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>RG: If yes, should it require authentication in order to avoid an atta=
cker<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>from unwanted test termination?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>[acm]<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>No &quot;Emergency Stop&quot; message, no attack.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>#########<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>RG: Would a three-way-handshake make sense to activate testing?<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre>(noting that the sender in that case also must be protected against<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>opening of unbounded numbers of tests). A three way handshake protects=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>against forged test set up messages.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>[acm]<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The combination of Test Setup and Test Activation define a 4-way hands=
hake.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>RG: What else could be forged?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>[acm] everything in the current version, except the Authentication str=
ing.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>RG: Do these require authentication or at least a discussion?<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Response message feedback (indicating ramp-up/no dr=
op where there's congestion or the other way around, congestion where there=
 is none).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Stop messages (unwanted termination)<o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Could a host or a client be tricked into persistent=
ly acting as a sender?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>[acm]<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Yes, of course! We want to supply sufficient AUTH and integrity option=
s when<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>needed.&nbsp; That's partly why we petitioned for WG Adoption, to get =
an early SEC-DIR<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>review or two.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>However:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I have begin to think that we only need 4 security modes of operation:=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>1. Unauthenticated (in the protocol now)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>2. Password-protected test setup (in the protocol now)<o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>3. Encrypted Test Setup exchanges<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>4. Run the protocol inside an encrypted tunnel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>#4 will have performance implications for high capacity measurements<o=
:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>on small hosts (in residences, GWs, WLAN devices, etc.)<o:p></o:p></pr=
e>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>FYI -&nbsp; a client cannot be tricked into persistently acting as a s=
ender.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The command that starts the client process determines this role.<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>########<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Editorials<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>[acm]<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thanks for these!&nbsp; I'll get to them in a second pass...<o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre style=3D"mso-outline-level:1">From: ippm <a href=3D"mailto:&amp;lt;ipp=
m-bounces@ietf.org&amp;gt;">&lt;ippm-bounces@ietf.org&gt;</a> On Behalf Of =
<a href=3D"mailto:Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de">Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de</a><o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Tuesday, December 7, 2021 3:01 AM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: <a href=3D"mailto:marcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org">ma=
rcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org">ippm@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>Subject: Re: [ippm] draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Hi Marcus,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>I support adoption.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Regards, Ruediger<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Some comments:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Section&nbsp; 3.&nbsp; Protocol Overview<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; The client requires configuration of a test direction par=
ameter<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; (upstream or downstream test) as well as the hostname or =
IP address<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; of the server in order to begin the setup and configurati=
on exchanges<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; with the server.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>RG: The draft also mentions a sender and a receiver. Both, client and =
server<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>may act as sender and receiver. This depends on the test direction,<o:=
p></o:p></pre>
<pre>upstream or downstream.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Words to that appear in &quot;9.&nbsp; Method of Measurement&quot;, at=
 the end of the doc.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>4.&nbsp; Stopping the Test: The server initiates the phase to stop the=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; test by setting the STOP1 indicat=
ion in load PDUs or sstatus<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; feedback messages.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; ( ^^^^)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>RG: Would it be worth a thought to enable the client to terminate a te=
st?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>##########<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>5.&nbsp; Setup Request and Response Exchange<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>The message format isn't &quot;TLV&quot;. Is the protocol extensible (=
e.g. could security be adapted to future needs)?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>##########<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>6.2.&nbsp; Test Activation Request - server response<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>.....The remaining 28 octets of the Test Activation Request (normally =
read<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>RG: A bit worrying, seems to be set by the sender in the reply to a re=
quest only. See editorials...<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>##########<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>7.1.&nbsp; Test Packet PDU and Roles<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>.... On the other hand, the test configuration MAY use a fixed sending=
<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; rate requested by the client,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>RG: contains descriptive text about the method (e.g. decision on the s=
ending rate). The text<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>there certainly is correct. I wonder, whether a reference replacing th=
e text would be sufficient?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>RG:&nbsp; Does the MAY here introduce a new method? If it does, would =
that require to update the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>RFC specifying the method?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>###########<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>10.&nbsp; Security Considerations<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>RG: would a receiver (client and host) require an &quot;Emergency Stop=
&quot; message? If yes, should it require authentication in order to avoid =
an attacker from unwanted test termination?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Would a three-way-handshake make sense to activate testing? (noting th=
at the sender in that case also must be protected against opening of unboun=
ded numbers of tests). A three way handshake protects against forged test s=
et up messages.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>What else could be forged? Do these require authentication or at least=
 a discussion?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; Response message feedback (indicating ramp-up/no =
drop where there's congestion or the other way around, congestion where the=
re is none).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; Stop messages (unwanted termination)<o:p></o:p></=
pre>
<pre>&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; Could a host or a client be tricked into persiste=
ntly acting as a sender?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>########<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Editorials<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>6.2.&nbsp; Test Activation Request - server response<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>...&nbsp;&nbsp; When the server sends the Test Activation response bac=
k, it SHALL set<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the cmd Response field to:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>RG: Server Test Activation Reply (or Response - please apply stringent=
ly through the text)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>When the server responds by a Test Activation Reply, it...<o:p></o:p><=
/pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; The server SHALL include all the test parameters again to=
 make the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; client aware of any changes.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>RG: The server SHALL repeat all test parameters to indicate changes to=
 the client.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>8.&nbsp; Stopping the Test<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; When the test duration timer on the server expires, it SH=
ALL set the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; connection test action to STOP and also starts marking al=
l outgoing<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; load or status PDUs with a test action of STOP1.<o:p></o:=
p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>RG: ...and mark all outgoing load...<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>10.&nbsp; Security Considerations<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>A. Unathenticated mode (for all phases)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:DE">Unauthenticated<o:p><=
/o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:DE">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ^^=
^^<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:DE"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></pre>
<pre style=3D"mso-outline-level:1"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"mso-ansi-lang=
uage:DE">Von: ippm </span><a href=3D"mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org%3cmailto:=
ippm-bounces@ietf.org"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:DE">ipp=
m-bounces@ietf.org&lt;mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org</span></a><span lang=3D"=
DE" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:DE">&gt; Im Auftrag von Marcus Ihlar<o:p></o=
:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:DE">Gesendet: Montag, 6. =
Dezember 2021 16:53<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:DE">An: </span><a href=3D=
"mailto:ippm@ietf.org%3cmailto:ippm@ietf.org"><span lang=3D"DE" style=3D"ms=
o-ansi-language:DE">ippm@ietf.org&lt;mailto:ippm@ietf.org</span></a><span l=
ang=3D"DE" style=3D"mso-ansi-language:DE">&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre>Betreff: [ippm] draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol<o:p></o:p><=
/pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>Hi IPPM,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This email starts an adoption call for draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metr=
ic-protocol, &quot; Test Protocol for One-way IP Capacity Measurement&quot;=
.&nbsp; This document is intended for Standards Track and defines a protoco=
l for measuring Network Capacity metrics defined in RFC 9097 (<a href=3D"ht=
tps://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9097/*3Chttps:=
/urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9097/__;!!BhdT!0XFa=
gPVddMPqLtUl1ej6zNK69Ogn2sgujZ23jLU92MHMnHJnppFGox6tI3-r$*3E__;JSU!!BhdT!1q=
VUfqn2jow5EAH196PRM4gYdPZVXHWD-KBkL09K7O2c_0-Afw-glLh3PZlo$">https://datatr=
acker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9097/&lt;https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatrack=
er.ietf.org/doc/rfc9097/__;!!BhdT!0XFagPVddMPqLtUl1ej6zNK69Ogn2sgujZ23jLU92=
MHMnHJnppFGox6tI3-r$&gt;</a>)$&gt;).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc=
/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol/*3Chttps:/urldefense.com/v3/__h=
ttps:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol/_=
_;!!BhdT!0XFagPVddMPqLtUl1ej6zNK69Ogn2sgujZ23jLU92MHMnHJnppFGoww_Z_IZ$*3E__=
;JSU!!BhdT!1qVUfqn2jow5EAH196PRM4gYdPZVXHWD-KBkL09K7O2c_0-Afw-glAiaJmFG$">h=
ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol/=
&lt;https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-morto=
n-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol/__;!!BhdT!0XFagPVddMPqLtUl1ej6zNK69Ogn2sguj=
Z23jLU92MHMnHJnppFGoww_Z_IZ$&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc=
/html/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol-02*3Chttps:/urldefense.com=
/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metri=
c-protocol-02__;!!BhdT!0XFagPVddMPqLtUl1ej6zNK69Ogn2sgujZ23jLU92MHMnHJnppFG=
o-rAHSKU$*3E__;JSU!!BhdT!1qVUfqn2jow5EAH196PRM4gYdPZVXHWD-KBkL09K7O2c_0-Afw=
-glLGZul8p$">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-morton-ippm-capaci=
ty-metric-protocol-02&lt;https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/html/draft-morton-ippm-capacity-metric-protocol-02__;!!BhdT!0XFag=
PVddMPqLtUl1ej6zNK69Ogn2sgujZ23jLU92MHMnHJnppFGo-rAHSKU$&gt;</a><o:p></o:p>=
</pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>This adoption call will last until Monday, December 20. Please review =
the document, and reply to this email thread to indicate if you think IPPM =
should adopt this document.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>BR,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Marcus<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charse=
t=3DUTF-8"><style>body { line-height: 1.5; }blockquote { margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.5em; }body { font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: "Microsoft YaHei UI"; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: 1.5; }</style>=
</head><body>=0A<div><span></span><div>Hi IPPM=EF=BC=8C</div><div><br></di=
v><div>We have updated two drafts related to one-way delay measurement.</d=
iv><div><span style=3D"background-color: transparent;">Most of the current=
 one-way delay measurement solutions require time synchronization, which m=
akes it difficult to deploy applications. So, we introduce two measurement=
 solutions that don=E2=80=99t require time synchronization, which are valu=
able to the applications such as video transmission, industrial control, e=
tc.</span></div><div><br></div><div>More reviews and comments are welcome.=
 The Internet-Draft announcement is below.</div><div><a href=3D"https://ww=
w.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-li-ippm-ref-delay-measurement-02.txt" style=3D=
"background-color: transparent;">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-li-=
ippm-ref-delay-measurement-02.txt</a><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); b=
ackground-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);">&nbsp;</span></div><div><a href=3D"htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-li-ippm-deterministic-owd-measurement-0=
1.txt" style=3D"background-color: transparent;">https://www.ietf.org/archi=
ve/id/draft-li-ippm-deterministic-owd-measurement-01.txt</a><span style=3D=
"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0);">&nbsp;</span></=
div><div><br></div><div>Best Regards</div><div>Hongwei Yang</div></div>=0A=
<div><br></div><hr style=3D"width: 210px; height: 1px;" color=3D"#b5c4df" =
size=3D"1" align=3D"left">=0A<div><span><div style=3D"margin: 10px; font-f=
amily: verdana;"><span style=3D"font-size: 13px;"><span style=3D"color: rg=
b(51, 51, 51); font-family: &quot;Microsoft YaHei&quot;;"><div style=3D"co=
lor: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91;"><sp=
an style=3D"color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: &quot;Microsoft YaHei&quo=
t;;"><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=
=9B=85=E9=BB=91;"><span style=3D"background-color: transparent; color: rgb=
(51, 51, 51); font-family: &quot;Microsoft YaHei&quot;;">yanghongwei@china=
mobile.com</span><span style=3D"background-color: transparent; color: rgb(=
51, 51, 51); font-family: &quot;Microsoft YaHei&quot;;">&nbsp;</span></div=
></span></div></span></span></div></span></div>=0A<blockquote style=3D"mar=
gin-Top: 0px; margin-Bottom: 0px; margin-Left: 0.5em; margin-Right: inheri=
t"><div>&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0=
pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><div style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 8px; PADDING-LE=
FT: 8px; FONT-SIZE: 12px;FONT-FAMILY:tahoma;COLOR:#000000; BACKGROUND: #ef=
efef; PADDING-BOTTOM: 8px; PADDING-TOP: 8px"><div><b>From:</b>&nbsp;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts</a></div><div><b>Dat=
e:</b>&nbsp;2022-02-10&nbsp;11:37</div><div><b>To:</b>&nbsp;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:chendanyang@chinamobile.com">Danyang Chen</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:yangh=
ongwei@chinamobile.com">Hongwei Yang</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:suntao@chinamo=
bile.com">Tao Sun</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:wangyali11@huawei.com">Yali Wang<=
/a>; <a href=3D"mailto:liyangzn@chinamobile.com">Yang Li</a></div><div><b>=
Subject:</b>&nbsp;New Version Notification for draft-li-ippm-ref-delay-mea=
surement-02.txt</div></div></div><div><div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>A new versi=
on of I-D, draft-li-ippm-ref-delay-measurement-02.txt</div>=0A<div>has bee=
n successfully submitted by Hongwei Yang and posted to the</div>=0A<div>IE=
TF repository.</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>Name:		draft-li-ippm-ref-d=
elay-measurement</div>=0A<div>Revision:	02</div>=0A<div>Title:		One-way De=
lay Measurement Based on Reference Delay</div>=0A<div>Document date:	2022-=
02-10</div>=0A<div>Group:		Individual Submission</div>=0A<div>Pages:		10</=
div>=0A<div>URL:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-li-ippm-ref-delay-measureme=
nt-02.txt</div>=0A<div>Status:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-ippm-ref-delay-measurement/=
</div>=0A<div>Htmlized:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; https://datatr=
acker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-ippm-ref-delay-measurement</div>=0A<div>D=
iff:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; https://w=
ww.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-li-ippm-ref-delay-measurement-02</div>=0A=
<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>Abstract:</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; The end-to-en=
d network one-way delay is an important performance</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;&nb=
sp; metric in the 5G network.&nbsp; For realizing the accurate one-way del=
ay</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; measurement, existing methods requires the en=
d-to-end deployment of</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; accurate clock synchroniz=
ation mechanism, such as PTP or GPS, which</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; resul=
ts in relatively high deployment cost.&nbsp; Another method can</div>=0A<d=
iv>&nbsp;&nbsp; derive the one-way delay from the round-trip delay.&nbsp; =
In this case,</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; since the delay of the downlink an=
d uplink may be asymmetric, the</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; measurement accu=
racy is relatively low.&nbsp; Hence, this document</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;&nbs=
p; introduces a method to measure the end-to-end network one-way delay</di=
v>=0A<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; based on a reference delay guaranteed by determinis=
tic networking</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; without clock synchronization.The=
 advantage of this solution is that</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; it has high =
measurement accuracy and can test any flow type.</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=
=0A<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</d=
iv>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A<div>The IETF Secretariat</div>=0A<div>&nbsp;</d=
iv>=0A<div>&nbsp;</div>=0A</div></blockquote>=0A</body></html>
------=_001_NextPart568108525576_=------




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Subject: [ippm] A review of draft-zhou-ippm-enhanced-alternate-marking-08
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Hi,

I've just been looking at draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark, so I thought
I would also have a look at this draft.

Here are a few comments that the authors may find helpful.

Best,
Adrian

===

Abstract

1. Don't use references in the Abstract
2. It would be really nice to say which enhanced capabilities and
   functions are provided and allowed.
3. s/the enhanced/enhanced/

---

Requirements language

1. You should move this down into section 1.1
2. You need to use the up-to-date boilerplate

---

Section 1

1. s/an hybrid/a hybrid/
2. s/IPv6 AltMark Option/The IPv6 AltMark Option/
3. s/to the IPv6 protocol/to IPv6/
4. s/defines Extension/defines an Extension/
5. s/encode Alternate/encode the Alternate/
6. s/both Hop-by-Hop/both the Hop-by-Hop/
7. s/and Destination/and the Destination/
8. s/carried as SRH TLV/carried as a TLV in the Segment Routing Header/
9. You have...
   While the AltMark Option implements the basic alternate marking
   method, this document defines the extended data fields for the
   AltMark Option and provides the enhanced capabilities.
   ...I'm not clear, but I think, s/the extended/extended/ and
   s/the enhanced/enhanced/
   But I think that the Introduction (in more detail than the Abstract) 
   needs to give clues about those capabilities.

---

Section 2

1. s/the next figure/Figure 1/
2. s/An 8 bits/An 8-bit/
3. It is not clear from the text that two bits of the former Reserved
   field remain reserved, are shown as R in the figure, and MUST continue
   to be set to zero on transmission and ignored on receipt.
4. s/Fig. 1:/Figure 1:/   (same for all the figures)
5. Figure 1 is slightly confusing as Section 3.1 of draft-ietf-6man-ipv6
   -alt-mark shows two additional fields (Option Type and Opt Data Len)
8. Do you really need 8 bits for the NextHeader field. You have reserved 
   0-8 for special purposes, and used just one other value (9). At the 
   same time you have removed 8 out of the 10 bits available for future
   extensions. Furthermore, 8 values looks like a lot of experimentation
   space. Why not...
   - Keep zero as reserved (for backward compatibility - by the way, you 
     should say in the text why zero is reserved)
   - Reduce experimentation to the values 1, 2, 3
   - Assign just 4 bits for "NextHeader"
7. I really feel that you are going to need a registry for the values of
   the NextHeader field.
8. s/The following figure/Figure 2/
9. You have ...
   o  Flag - A 4 bits flag to indicate the special purpose usage.
   ...It's OK, but could you add "(see below)" to save me from panic.
10. s/A 4 bits flag/A 4-bit flag/
11. For Len ("It indicates the length of extension headers.") you need
   to say what is counted and in what units. Do you start at FlowMonID
   Ext or after Padding? Do you count in octets or double words?
12. s/A 16 bits Bitmap/A 16-bit bitmap/
13. To be clear, is the padding there specifically as padding, or is a 
    reserved field? What does "when not being used" mean? Looking later
    I think that you only have padding present sometimes, so it is 
    genuinely padding, but the text does not explain when it is there and
    when it isn't.
14. s/requested to set/requested to be set/
15. Similarly for MetaInfo, could you add "(see below)"?
16. s/The Flag is defined as/The Flag is defined in Figure 3 as/
17. OLD
    others - Reserved.
    NEW
    others (shown as R) - Reserved. MUST be set to zero and ignored on
    receipt.
    END
18. s/as a bit map as follows:/in Figure 4 as a bit map as follows:/
19. I read "stands for the second part" several times before I realised
    you mean "stands of the number of seconds in the timestamp" and not
    "the second part of the timestamp"!
20. I see that various pieces of information are present if a particular
    bit in the bitmap is set. But you don't talk about whether that 
    information must be ordered according to the order of the bits (of
    course it must be).
21. Figure 6 shows Control as a 6-bit field and Period as a 10-bit 
    field. If this is an error, fix the figure. If it is intentional
    please make it clear in the text.
22. How are the various fields of the control information extension 
    used? I feel you may be missing some reference pointers.
23. What is the sequence number used for?

---

Section 3.

   In particular the fundamental
   security requirement is that Alternate Marking MUST be applied in a
   specific limited domain, as also mentioned in [RFC8799].

It's subtle, but I think you don't mean that it MUST be applied in a
specific limited domain. Possibly "it MUST only be applied".


From nobody Mon Feb 14 07:01:04 2022
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From: Giuseppe Fioccola <giuseppe.fioccola@huawei.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "draft-zhou-ippm-enhanced-alternate-marking@ietf.org" <draft-zhou-ippm-enhanced-alternate-marking@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: A review of draft-zhou-ippm-enhanced-alternate-marking-08
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Subject: Re: [ippm] A review of draft-zhou-ippm-enhanced-alternate-marking-08
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Hi Adrian,
Thanks a lot for your thorough revision.=20
It will help to improve the document and we plan to publish the new revisio=
n soon.

Please find my responses inline as [GF].

Best Regards,

Giuseppe

-----Original Message-----
From: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>=20
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2022 2:54 PM
To: draft-zhou-ippm-enhanced-alternate-marking@ietf.org
Cc: 'IETF IPPM WG' <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: A review of draft-zhou-ippm-enhanced-alternate-marking-08

Hi,

I've just been looking at draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark, so I thought I wou=
ld also have a look at this draft.

Here are a few comments that the authors may find helpful.

Best,
Adrian

=3D=3D=3D

Abstract

1. Don't use references in the Abstract
2. It would be really nice to say which enhanced capabilities and
   functions are provided and allowed.
3. s/the enhanced/enhanced/

[GF]: Sure, I will apply these changes and specify what are the enhanced ca=
pabilities, for example thicker packet loss measurements and more dense del=
ay measurements with no limitation for the number of concurrent flows under=
 monitoring

---

Requirements language

1. You should move this down into section 1.1 2. You need to use the up-to-=
date boilerplate

[GF]: Yes, we will do.

---

Section 1

1. s/an hybrid/a hybrid/
2. s/IPv6 AltMark Option/The IPv6 AltMark Option/ 3. s/to the IPv6 protocol=
/to IPv6/ 4. s/defines Extension/defines an Extension/ 5. s/encode Alternat=
e/encode the Alternate/ 6. s/both Hop-by-Hop/both the Hop-by-Hop/ 7. s/and =
Destination/and the Destination/ 8. s/carried as SRH TLV/carried as a TLV i=
n the Segment Routing Header/

[GF]: We will include these changes.

9. You have...
   While the AltMark Option implements the basic alternate marking
   method, this document defines the extended data fields for the
   AltMark Option and provides the enhanced capabilities.
   ...I'm not clear, but I think, s/the extended/extended/ and
   s/the enhanced/enhanced/
   But I think that the Introduction (in more detail than the Abstract)=20
   needs to give clues about those capabilities.

[GF]: We will apply the suggested changes. I agree that more detailed infor=
mation about the enhanced capabilities can be included in the Introduction.
---

Section 2

1. s/the next figure/Figure 1/
2. s/An 8 bits/An 8-bit/

[GF]: We will include these changes.

3. It is not clear from the text that two bits of the former Reserved
   field remain reserved, are shown as R in the figure, and MUST continue
   to be set to zero on transmission and ignored on receipt.

[GF]: We will clarify this point.

4. s/Fig. 1:/Figure 1:/   (same for all the figures)

[GF]: Yes.

5. Figure 1 is slightly confusing as Section 3.1 of draft-ietf-6man-ipv6
   -alt-mark shows two additional fields (Option Type and Opt Data Len) 8. =
Do you really need 8 bits for the NextHeader field. You have reserved=20
   0-8 for special purposes, and used just one other value (9). At the=20
   same time you have removed 8 out of the 10 bits available for future
   extensions. Furthermore, 8 values looks like a lot of experimentation
   space. Why not...
   - Keep zero as reserved (for backward compatibility - by the way, you=20
     should say in the text why zero is reserved)
   - Reduce experimentation to the values 1, 2, 3
   - Assign just 4 bits for "NextHeader"

[GF]: This is a good suggestion. It looks reasonable to reduce the number o=
f bits for NextHeader.

7. I really feel that you are going to need a registry for the values of
   the NextHeader field.
8. s/The following figure/Figure 2/

[GF]: We will include these changes.

9. You have ...
   o  Flag - A 4 bits flag to indicate the special purpose usage.
   ...It's OK, but could you add "(see below)" to save me from panic.

[GF]: Sure, good suggestion.

10. s/A 4 bits flag/A 4-bit flag/
11. For Len ("It indicates the length of extension headers.") you need
   to say what is counted and in what units. Do you start at FlowMonID
   Ext or after Padding? Do you count in octets or double words?
12. s/A 16 bits Bitmap/A 16-bit bitmap/

[GF]: We will do.

13. To be clear, is the padding there specifically as padding, or is a=20
    reserved field? What does "when not being used" mean? Looking later
    I think that you only have padding present sometimes, so it is=20
    genuinely padding, but the text does not explain when it is there and
    when it isn't.

[GF]: We can clarify that padding is a variable length field as further spe=
cify later in the document.

14. s/requested to set/requested to be set/ 15. Similarly for MetaInfo, cou=
ld you add "(see below)"?
16. s/The Flag is defined as/The Flag is defined in Figure 3 as/=20
17. OLD
    others - Reserved.
    NEW
    others (shown as R) - Reserved. MUST be set to zero and ignored on
    receipt.
    END
18. s/as a bit map as follows:/in Figure 4 as a bit map as follows:/=20

[GF]: We will apply these changes.

19. I read "stands for the second part" several times before I realised
    you mean "stands of the number of seconds in the timestamp" and not
    "the second part of the timestamp"!

[GF]: We will revise the text.

20. I see that various pieces of information are present if a particular
    bit in the bitmap is set. But you don't talk about whether that=20
    information must be ordered according to the order of the bits (of
    course it must be).

[GF]: Yes, we will clarify this point.

21. Figure 6 shows Control as a 6-bit field and Period as a 10-bit=20
    field. If this is an error, fix the figure. If it is intentional
    please make it clear in the text.

[GF]: We will further clarify this part.

22. How are the various fields of the control information extension=20
    used? I feel you may be missing some reference pointers.
23. What is the sequence number used for?

[GF]: We will add further details here.

---

Section 3.

   In particular the fundamental
   security requirement is that Alternate Marking MUST be applied in a
   specific limited domain, as also mentioned in [RFC8799].

It's subtle, but I think you don't mean that it MUST be applied in a specif=
ic limited domain. Possibly "it MUST only be applied".

[GF]: Yes, we will revise this section as well.


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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Giuseppe Fioccola'" <giuseppe.fioccola@huawei.com>, <draft-zhou-ippm-enhanced-alternate-marking@ietf.org>
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Thanks Giuseppe,

All looks good.

Adrian

-----Original Message-----
From: Giuseppe Fioccola <giuseppe.fioccola@huawei.com> 
Sent: 14 February 2022 15:01
To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; draft-zhou-ippm-enhanced-alternate-marking@ietf.org
Cc: 'IETF IPPM WG' <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: A review of draft-zhou-ippm-enhanced-alternate-marking-08

Hi Adrian,
Thanks a lot for your thorough revision. 
It will help to improve the document and we plan to publish the new revision
soon.

Please find my responses inline as [GF].

Best Regards,

Giuseppe

-----Original Message-----
From: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> 
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2022 2:54 PM
To: draft-zhou-ippm-enhanced-alternate-marking@ietf.org
Cc: 'IETF IPPM WG' <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: A review of draft-zhou-ippm-enhanced-alternate-marking-08

Hi,

I've just been looking at draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark, so I thought I
would also have a look at this draft.

Here are a few comments that the authors may find helpful.

Best,
Adrian

===

Abstract

1. Don't use references in the Abstract
2. It would be really nice to say which enhanced capabilities and
   functions are provided and allowed.
3. s/the enhanced/enhanced/

[GF]: Sure, I will apply these changes and specify what are the enhanced
capabilities, for example thicker packet loss measurements and more dense
delay measurements with no limitation for the number of concurrent flows
under monitoring

---

Requirements language

1. You should move this down into section 1.1 2. You need to use the
up-to-date boilerplate

[GF]: Yes, we will do.

---

Section 1

1. s/an hybrid/a hybrid/
2. s/IPv6 AltMark Option/The IPv6 AltMark Option/ 3. s/to the IPv6
protocol/to IPv6/ 4. s/defines Extension/defines an Extension/ 5. s/encode
Alternate/encode the Alternate/ 6. s/both Hop-by-Hop/both the Hop-by-Hop/ 7.
s/and Destination/and the Destination/ 8. s/carried as SRH TLV/carried as a
TLV in the Segment Routing Header/

[GF]: We will include these changes.

9. You have...
   While the AltMark Option implements the basic alternate marking
   method, this document defines the extended data fields for the
   AltMark Option and provides the enhanced capabilities.
   ...I'm not clear, but I think, s/the extended/extended/ and
   s/the enhanced/enhanced/
   But I think that the Introduction (in more detail than the Abstract) 
   needs to give clues about those capabilities.

[GF]: We will apply the suggested changes. I agree that more detailed
information about the enhanced capabilities can be included in the
Introduction.
---

Section 2

1. s/the next figure/Figure 1/
2. s/An 8 bits/An 8-bit/

[GF]: We will include these changes.

3. It is not clear from the text that two bits of the former Reserved
   field remain reserved, are shown as R in the figure, and MUST continue
   to be set to zero on transmission and ignored on receipt.

[GF]: We will clarify this point.

4. s/Fig. 1:/Figure 1:/   (same for all the figures)

[GF]: Yes.

5. Figure 1 is slightly confusing as Section 3.1 of draft-ietf-6man-ipv6
   -alt-mark shows two additional fields (Option Type and Opt Data Len) 8.
Do you really need 8 bits for the NextHeader field. You have reserved 
   0-8 for special purposes, and used just one other value (9). At the 
   same time you have removed 8 out of the 10 bits available for future
   extensions. Furthermore, 8 values looks like a lot of experimentation
   space. Why not...
   - Keep zero as reserved (for backward compatibility - by the way, you 
     should say in the text why zero is reserved)
   - Reduce experimentation to the values 1, 2, 3
   - Assign just 4 bits for "NextHeader"

[GF]: This is a good suggestion. It looks reasonable to reduce the number of
bits for NextHeader.

7. I really feel that you are going to need a registry for the values of
   the NextHeader field.
8. s/The following figure/Figure 2/

[GF]: We will include these changes.

9. You have ...
   o  Flag - A 4 bits flag to indicate the special purpose usage.
   ...It's OK, but could you add "(see below)" to save me from panic.

[GF]: Sure, good suggestion.

10. s/A 4 bits flag/A 4-bit flag/
11. For Len ("It indicates the length of extension headers.") you need
   to say what is counted and in what units. Do you start at FlowMonID
   Ext or after Padding? Do you count in octets or double words?
12. s/A 16 bits Bitmap/A 16-bit bitmap/

[GF]: We will do.

13. To be clear, is the padding there specifically as padding, or is a 
    reserved field? What does "when not being used" mean? Looking later
    I think that you only have padding present sometimes, so it is 
    genuinely padding, but the text does not explain when it is there and
    when it isn't.

[GF]: We can clarify that padding is a variable length field as further
specify later in the document.

14. s/requested to set/requested to be set/ 15. Similarly for MetaInfo,
could you add "(see below)"?
16. s/The Flag is defined as/The Flag is defined in Figure 3 as/ 
17. OLD
    others - Reserved.
    NEW
    others (shown as R) - Reserved. MUST be set to zero and ignored on
    receipt.
    END
18. s/as a bit map as follows:/in Figure 4 as a bit map as follows:/ 

[GF]: We will apply these changes.

19. I read "stands for the second part" several times before I realised
    you mean "stands of the number of seconds in the timestamp" and not
    "the second part of the timestamp"!

[GF]: We will revise the text.

20. I see that various pieces of information are present if a particular
    bit in the bitmap is set. But you don't talk about whether that 
    information must be ordered according to the order of the bits (of
    course it must be).

[GF]: Yes, we will clarify this point.

21. Figure 6 shows Control as a 6-bit field and Period as a 10-bit 
    field. If this is an error, fix the figure. If it is intentional
    please make it clear in the text.

[GF]: We will further clarify this part.

22. How are the various fields of the control information extension 
    used? I feel you may be missing some reference pointers.
23. What is the sequence number used for?

[GF]: We will add further details here.

---

Section 3.

   In particular the fundamental
   security requirement is that Alternate Marking MUST be applied in a
   specific limited domain, as also mentioned in [RFC8799].

It's subtle, but I think you don't mean that it MUST be applied in a
specific limited domain. Possibly "it MUST only be applied".

[GF]: Yes, we will revise this section as well.


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From: Marcus Ihlar <marcus.ihlar@ericsson.com>
To: "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options
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Subject: Re: [ippm] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options
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Hi IPPM,

This WGLC is concluded and we see clear support for progressing the documen=
t.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed with feedback and to the authors for=
 addressing the feedback in a revision.



Best regards,

Marcus Ihlar



From: Marcus Ihlar
Sent: den 17 december 2021 16:39
To: ippm@ietf.org
Subject: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options



Hello IPPM,

This email starts a Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-op=
tions.



https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options/

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options-06



Please provide feedback by replying to this email with your reviews and if =
you think this document is ready to progress, by Friday, January 14.



Best Regards,

Marcus & Tommy


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</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" style=3D"word-wrap:=
break-word">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi IPPM,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This WGLC is concluded and we see clear support for =
progressing the document.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks to everyone who has contributed with feedback=
 and to the authors for addressing the feedback in a revision.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marcus Ihlar<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Marcus Ihlar <br>
<b>Sent:</b> den 17 december 2021 16:39<br>
<b>To:</b> ippm@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options<o:p></o:=
p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hello IPPM,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This email starts a Working Group Last Call on draft=
-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie=
tf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ipp=
m-ioam-ipv6-options/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/dra=
ft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options-06">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/dr=
aft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options-06</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Please provide feedback by replying to this email wi=
th your reviews and if you think this document is ready to progress, by
<b>Friday, January 14</b>.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marcus &amp; Tommy<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
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Hi Giuseppe,

This is looking good.

1) The one conceptual problem I'm having is what it means for a packet to
be "unmarked". If marking involves encapsulation, no problem: some packets
can simply not be encapsulated, or one can omit the header option or
whatever. But if it's passive measurement because there's a bit in the
header, this bit has to be set to something, right?  So how would one
mediate between flows that are to be measured or not measured in the latter
case?

2) Some minor rewording of the new fragmentation language in section 4.4:
OLD

Nodes that fragment packets within the measurement domain MUST NOT
replicate marks, but SHOULD mark the first fragment if they have the

capability to do so.


NEW

Nodes that fragment packets within the measurement domain SHOULD, if

they have the capability to do so, ensure that only one resulting

fragment carries the marking bit(s) of the original packet. Failure

to do so can introduce errors into the measurement.


I would propose the following steps.

A) address these points and publish draft-02. We'll save the diff to show
the delta between 8321 and 8321 bis.

B) Immediately reorganize the document as you intend and publish draft-03.

Then we'll take it through IETF Last Call.

Thanks
Martin

--0000000000000c6a1705d815ad3e
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Giuseppe,<div><br></div><div>This is looking good.</div=
><div><br></div><div>1) The one conceptual=C2=A0problem=C2=A0I&#39;m having=
 is what it means for a packet to be &quot;unmarked&quot;. If marking invol=
ves encapsulation, no problem: some packets can simply not be encapsulated,=
 or one can omit the header option or whatever. But if it&#39;s passive mea=
surement because there&#39;s a bit in the header, this bit has to be set to=
 something, right?=C2=A0 So how would one mediate=C2=A0between flows that a=
re to be measured or not measured in the latter case?</div><div><br></div><=
div>2) Some minor rewording of the new fragmentation language in section 4.=
4:</div><div>OLD</div><div><pre style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px=
;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Nodes that fragment =
packets within the measurement domain MUST NOT
replicate marks, but SHOULD mark the first fragment if they have the</pre><=
pre style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-bef=
ore:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">capability to do so.</pre><pre style=3D"font-siz=
e:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,=
0,0)"><br></pre><pre style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bot=
tom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,3=
4);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;white-space:norma=
l">NEW</div><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small;white-space:normal"><pre style=3D"font-size:13.33=
33px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">N=
odes that fragment packets within the measurement domain SHOULD, if</pre><p=
re style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-befo=
re:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">they have the capability to do so, ensure that on=
ly one resulting</pre><pre style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;marg=
in-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">fragment carries the mark=
ing bit(s) of the original packet. Failure</pre><pre style=3D"font-size:13.=
3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"=
>to do so can introduce errors into the measurement.</pre><pre style=3D"fon=
t-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:r=
gb(0,0,0)"><br></pre></div></pre></div><div>I would propose the following s=
teps.</div><div><br></div><div>A) address these points and publish draft-02=
. We&#39;ll save the diff to show the delta between 8321 and 8321 bis.</div=
><div><br></div><div>B) Immediately reorganize the document as you intend a=
nd publish draft-03.</div><div><br></div><div>Then we&#39;ll take it throug=
h IETF Last Call.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks</div><div>Martin</div><di=
v>=C2=A0=C2=A0<br></div></div>

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Giuseppe,

Only two new issues with this one:

1) The formula for L in section 7 is not exactly wrong, but it is very
oddly expressed.

(a) In 8321 you introduce the value A, which is the maximum clock skew
between the two nodes. Together with the path delay, this provides the
lower bound for L.

In 8889, you introduce m as the maximum divergence between marking nodes,
but the text says this is not clock skew but a result of the nodes being
"overloaded". I don't know if overloading is a concern or not, but if it
is, clearly it is an issue in the point-to-point case as well!

It would be better if all skew issues -- both clock and overloading -- were
brought into a single quantity A. I don't see any reason that marking nodes
would have different properties than counting nodes[1], so why not use the
same value?

IIUC, 8321 and 8889 should have the same constraints on L -- the worst-case
for clock skew is the same for both.

(b) A question I don't know the answer to: is 3 standard deviations really
enough in the multipoint case? If there are thousands of possible paths and
a few of them are quite a bit longer, won't that introduce many errors?
This isn't a single entity you're sampling, but a heterogenous set of
paths. Is there a reason to think this is a normal distribution?

(2) The delay measurement section is vague about one-way vs. two-way delay.
Is two-way delay meaningful in a multipath environment?

****

These seem like the sort of questions that would be answered by
implementation and deployment experience. How do we set L? What times of
delay measurement are viable? If 8889 doesn't have enough deployment to
answer these questions, maybe it's not ready for PS?

Martin

[1] In the multipoint case, the distinction between marking nodes and
egress nodes seems artificial -- the diagrams seem to envision traffic
going from left to right, but of course it should be traveling in all
directions!

--00000000000031408005d81778de
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Giuseppe,</div><div><br></div>Only two new issues wit=
h this one:<div><br></div><div>1) The formula for L in section 7 is not exa=
ctly wrong, but it is very oddly expressed.</div><div><br></div><div>(a) In=
 8321 you introduce the value A, which is the maximum clock skew between th=
e two nodes. Together with the path delay, this provides the lower bound fo=
r L.</div><div><br></div><div>In 8889, you introduce=C2=A0m as the maximum =
divergence between marking nodes, but the text says this is not clock skew =
but a result of the nodes being &quot;overloaded&quot;. I don&#39;t know if=
 overloading is a concern or not, but if it is, clearly it is an issue in t=
he point-to-point case as well!</div><div><br></div><div>It would be better=
 if all skew issues -- both clock and overloading -- were brought into a si=
ngle quantity A. I don&#39;t see any reason that marking nodes would have d=
ifferent properties than counting nodes[1], so why not use the same value?<=
/div><div><br></div><div>IIUC, 8321 and 8889 should have the same constrain=
ts on L -- the worst-case for clock skew is the same for both.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>(b) A question I don&#39;t know the answer to: is 3 standard d=
eviations really enough in the multipoint case? If there are thousands of p=
ossible paths and a few of them are quite a bit longer, won&#39;t that intr=
oduce many errors? This isn&#39;t a single entity you&#39;re sampling, but =
a heterogenous set of paths. Is there a reason to think this is a normal di=
stribution?</div><div><br></div><div>(2) The delay measurement section is v=
ague about one-way vs. two-way delay. Is two-way delay meaningful in a mult=
ipath environment?</div><div><br></div><div>****</div><div><br></div><div>T=
hese seem like the sort of questions that would be answered by implementati=
on and deployment experience. How do we set L? What times of delay measurem=
ent are viable? If 8889 doesn&#39;t have enough deployment to answer these =
questions, maybe it&#39;s not ready for PS?</div><div><br></div><div>Martin=
</div><div><br></div><div>[1] In the multipoint case, the distinction=C2=A0=
between marking nodes and egress nodes seems artificial -- the diagrams see=
m to envision traffic going from left to right, but of course it should be =
traveling in all directions!</div></div>

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From: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness
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Hello Greg,

> On Feb 8, 2022, at 1:10 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Christoph,
> apologies for the belated response and thank you for sharing =
interesting details of you using the measurement method. I think that if =
the measurement method can not only provide the Round-trip Per Minute =
(RPM) metric but expose the network propagation and residential =
components of the round-trip delay, then it seems to me, the scope of =
the draft to be aligned with the charter of the IPPM WG and I'll be in =
favor of the WG adoption of the work.
> What do you think? What is the opinion of the authors and the WG?

I am assuming that with "residential components" you mean the =
server/client-side contribution to the measured latency, right?

In that case, yes the method does allow to separate these, as =
latency-probes are sent on both the load-generating connections and on =
separate connections. The difference between the two represents the =
"server-side contribution" to the latency.

I think what would be helpful would be a section in the draft that =
explains the different sources of latency (network, server, client) and =
how they affect the final RPM-number and how one can separate out these =
two components. It is also important to understand that the results are =
highly implementation-dependent. And explaining that in this section =
should help, I believe.

Would that be in line with what you are looking for?


Thanks,
Christoph


>=20
> Regards,
> Greg
>=20
> On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 4:42 PM Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com =
<mailto:cpaasch@apple.com>> wrote:
> Hello Greg,
>=20
>> On Jan 6, 2022, at 3:00 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com =
<mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi Christoph,
>> a happy and healthy New Year to you and All!
>=20
> Happy New Year to you as well!
>=20
>> Thank you for your kind consideration of my notes and detailed =
responses. Please find my follow-up notes in-line below under the GIM>> =
tag.
>=20
> Thanks for your replies. Please see inline:
>=20
>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 10:52 AM Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com =
<mailto:cpaasch@apple.com>> wrote:
>> Hello Greg,
>>=20
>> thanks for your comments. Please see inline:
>>=20
>>> On Dec 22, 2021, at 11:43 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com =
<mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Dear Marcus, Authors, et al,
>>> apologies for the belated response.
>>> I've read the draft and have some comments to share with you:
>>> as I understand it, the proposed new responsiveness metric is viewed =
as the single indicator of a bufferbloat condition in a network. As I =
recall, the discussion at Measuring Network Quality for End-Users =
workshop and on the mailing list =
<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/network-quality-workshop/?gbt=3D=
1&index=3DcuW_1lh4DD22V28EvlPFB_NjjZY> indicated, that there=E2=80=99s =
no consensus on what behaviors, symptoms can reliably signal the =
bufferbloat.
>> We are not trying for this responsiveness metric to be "the single =
indicator of bufferbloat". Bufferbloat can be measured in many different =
number of ways. And each of these will produce a correct, but a =
different result. Thus, "bufferbloat" is whatever the methodology tries =
to detect.
>>=20
>> Let me give an example of two methodologies that are both correct but =
both will produce entirely different numbers :
>>=20
>> If we would decide to generate the load by flooding the network with =
UDP traffic from a specific 4-tuple and measure latency with parallel =
ICMP pings. Then, on a over-buffered FIFO queue we would measure huge =
latencies (thus correctly expose bufferbloat), while on a FQ-codel queue =
we would not measure any bufferbloat.
>>=20
>> If on the other hand, the load-generating traffic is changing the =
source-port for every single UDP-packet, then in both the FIFO-queue and =
the FQ-codel queue we will measure huge amounts of bufferbloat.
>>=20
>> Thus, these two methods both produced correct results but with hugely =
different numbers in the FQ-codel case. [1]
>>=20
>> Now, while both methods measure some variant of bufferbloat, they =
both don't measure a realistic usage of the network.
>> GIM>> Thank you for the insights. It seems to me that what the method =
can demonstrate is rather the level of efficiency of the AQM in the =
network for a particular class of applications.
>=20
> Yes, that is a good description. It is for a "particular class of =
applications" and we are trying to make this class of applications =
representative of a "typical user-scenario". (admittedly, we can debate =
forever on what kind of applications are representative and I would love =
to have that debate :-)).
>=20
> On the point of "efficiency of the AQM". I would go even further that =
it's not only AQM but also the client- and server-side implementations =
of these applications (as noted further below).
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> That is why the "Responsiveness under working conditions" tries to =
clearly specify how the load is generated and how the latency is being =
measured. And it does not measure "bufferbloat" but it measures =
"responsiveness under working conditions" based on the methodology that =
is being used (using HTTP/2 or HTTP/3, multiple flows, ...). It does =
expose bufferbloat which can happen in the network. It also exposes =
certain server-side behaviors that can cause (huge amounts of) =
additional latency - those behaviors are typically not called =
"bufferbloat".
>> GIM>> Thank you for pointing out that the result of the RTT =
measurement has two contributing factors - network and server.
>=20
> Yes, servers contribute as do the client-side implementations. It's =
all three (client, network, server) that need to work "correctly" to =
achieve good responsiveness. Btw., as we are now gathering more =
experience with our methodology in different environments we find that =
the biggest portions of latency actually come from the server-side. We =
see several seconds of latency introduced by the HTTP/2 and TCP =
implementations.
>=20
>> It seems worth enhancing the method to localize each contribution and =
measure them separately.
>=20
> With the latency measuring probes being sent on load-bearing =
connections and separate connections and with the separate connections =
serving to measure DNS/TCP/... individually, the different data-points =
actually allow to localize to some extend.
>=20
> However, I would be reluctant to dive too deep into =
localization/trouble-shooting/debugging of networks as part of this I-D. =
As this opens a whole new can of worms. We could then start thinking =
about sending latency-probes while playing with the IP TTL to find which =
router is introducing the latency,... It's an entirely different =
research-topic IMO :-) Dave Taht was thinking of starting something =
along these lines (https://github.com/dtaht/wtbb =
<https://github.com/dtaht/wtbb>).
>=20
>>> It seems that it would be reasonable to first define what is being =
measured, characterized by the responsiveness metric. Having a document =
that discusses and defines the bufferbloat would be great.
>> I agree that there is a lack of definition for what "bufferbloat" =
really is.
>>=20
>> The way we look at "responsiveness under working conditions" is that =
it measures the latency in conditions that may realistically happen in =
worst-case scenarios with end-users/implementations that are =
non-malicious (non-malicious to exclude the UDP-flooding scenario).
>>=20
>> Thus, I assume we should make a better job at explaining this. The =
lack of a formal definition of "bufferbloat" doesn't help and thus we =
are indeed using this term a bit freely in the current draft. We will =
improve the Introduction to better set the stage =
(https://github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/issu=
es/31 =
<https://github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/issu=
es/31>).
>>=20
>>> It seems like in the foundation of the methodology described in the =
draft lies the assumption that without adding new flows the available =
bandwidth is constant, does not change. While that is mostly the case, =
there are technologies that behave differently and may change bandwidth =
because of the outside conditions. Some of these behaviors of links with =
variable discrete bandwidth are discussed in, for example, RFC 8330 =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8330/> and RFC 8625 =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8625/>.
>> I'm not sure I entirely understand your comment. But let me explain =
why we are gradually adding new flows:
>>=20
>> 1. TCP-implementations have usually a fixed limit for the upper bound =
of the receive window. In some networks that upper bound is lower than =
the BDP of the network. Thus, the only way to reach full capacity is by =
having multiple flows.
>> 2. Having multiple connections allows to quicker achieve full =
capacity in high-RTT networks and thus speeds up the test-duration.
>> 3. In some networks with "random" packet-loss, congestion-control may =
come in the way of achieving full capacity. Again, multiple flows will =
work around that.
>> GIM>> I might have asked several questions at once. Let me clarify =
what I am looking for:
>> As I understand the method of creating the "working conditions in a =
network" is based on certain assumptions. First, seems is that the =
bandwidth is symmetrical between the measurement points. Second, that =
the bandwidth doesn't change for the duration of the measurement =
session. AFAIK, in the access networks, both are not necessarily always =
the case.
> We don't have the assumption that bandwidth is symmetrical (assuming, =
you mean uplink/downlink symmetry - please clarify otherwise).
>=20
> The load-generating algorithm runs independently for uplink and =
downlink traffic. And it is perfectly fine when both have huge =
asymmetry.
>=20
>=20
> Regarding the stability of the bandwidth:
> You are making a good point indeed that we assume that the bandwidth =
is to some extend stable while ramping up the flows to "working =
conditions". Admittedly that assumption does not always hold, and that =
is one of the reasons why we try hard for the test to not take too long.
> I'm not sure how we could adjust the algorithm for varying bandwidth =
without introducing too much complexity. I'm open for suggestions :-)
>> On the other hand, I might have missed how the method of creating the =
"working conditions" guarantees a symmetrical load between the =
measurement points.
> As mentioned above, we don't assume a symmetrical load. Can you show =
us where in the draft we give that impression, so we can fix that?
>=20
>>>=20
>>> Then, I find the motivation not to use time units to express the =
responsiveness metric not convincing:
>>>    "Latency" is a poor measure of responsiveness, since it can be =
hard
>>>    for the general public to understand.  The units are unfamiliar
>>>    ("what is a millisecond?") and counterintuitive ("100 msec - that
>>>    sounds good - it's only a tenth of a second!").
>>=20
>> Can you expand on what exactly is not convincing to you? Do you think =
that people will mis-understand the metric or that milli-seconds is the =
right way to communicate responsiveness to the general public?
>> GIM>> Let me try. We know packet delay requirements for AR, VR =
applications. I believe that gamers are familiar with these numbers too. =
The same is likely the case for the industrial automation use cases =
served, for example, by Deterministic Networking.
>=20
> I can understand that for a technical audience, milli-seconds is easy =
and familiar. A non-technical audience might be more open to accepting a =
new "higher-is-better" metric. Responsiveness is something new and =
abstract so, it's kind of natural that it comes with a new unit.
>=20
> But I fully recognize that that's a controversial topic and can be =
discussed at length :)
>=20
>=20
> Cheers,
> Christoph
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Thanks a lot,
>> Christoph
>>=20
>> [1] And there are many networks that prioritize ICMP pings, thus we =
could observe even more different results based on what protocol is used =
to measure the latency.
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 7:53 AM Marcus Ihlar =
<marcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
>>> Hi IPPM,
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> This email starts an adoption call for =
draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness, "Responsiveness under Working =
Conditions=E2=80=9D. This document specifies the =E2=80=9CRPM Test=E2=80=9D=
 for measuring user experience when the network is fully loaded. The =
intended status of the document is Experimental.  =20
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/ =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/>
>>> =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-01=
 =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-0=
1>
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> This adoption call will last until Monday, December 20. Please =
review the document, and reply to this email thread to indicate if you =
think IPPM should adopt this document.
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> BR,
>>>=20
>>> Marcus
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ippm mailing list
>>> ippm@ietf.org <mailto:ippm@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ippm mailing list
>>> ippm@ietf.org <mailto:ippm@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm>
>>=20
>=20


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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hello=
 Greg,<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Feb 8, 2022, at 1:10 PM, Greg Mirsky =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Hi Christoph,<div =
class=3D"">apologies for the belated response and thank you for sharing =
interesting details of you using the measurement method. I think that if =
the measurement method can not only provide the Round-trip&nbsp;Per =
Minute (RPM) metric but expose the network propagation and residential =
components of the round-trip delay, then it seems to me, the scope of =
the draft to be aligned with the charter of the IPPM WG and I'll be in =
favor of the WG adoption of the work.</div><div class=3D"">What&nbsp;do =
you think? What is the opinion of the authors and the =
WG?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I =
am assuming that with "residential components" you mean the =
server/client-side contribution to the measured latency, =
right?</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>In that case, yes the method =
does allow to separate these, as latency-probes are sent on both the =
load-generating connections and on separate connections. The difference =
between the two represents the "server-side contribution" to the =
latency.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I think what would be =
helpful would be a section in the draft that explains the different =
sources of latency (network, server, client) and how they affect the =
final RPM-number and how one can separate out these two components. It =
is also important to understand that the results are highly =
implementation-dependent. And explaining that in this section should =
help, I believe.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Would that be in =
line with what you are looking for?</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Christoph</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Regards,</div><div =
class=3D"">Greg</div></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 4:42 PM =
Christoph Paasch &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com" =
class=3D"">cpaasch@apple.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D"">Hello Greg,<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jan =
6, 2022, at 3:00 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Hi Christoph,<div class=3D"">a happy and healthy =
New Year to you and All!</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Happy New Year to you as =
well!</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Thank you for your kind =
consideration of my notes and detailed responses. Please find my =
follow-up notes&nbsp;in-line below under the GIM&gt;&gt; =
tag.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thanks for your replies. Please see =
inline:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 10:52 AM Christoph Paasch =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">cpaasch@apple.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">Hello Greg,<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">thanks for your =
comments. Please see inline:<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Dec =
22, 2021, at 11:43 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Dear Marcus, Authors, =
et al,<div class=3D"">apologies for the belated response.</div><div =
class=3D"">I've read the draft and have some comments to share with =
you:</div><div class=3D""><ul class=3D""><li class=3D"">as I understand =
it, the proposed new responsiveness metric is viewed as the single =
indicator of a bufferbloat condition in a network. As I recall,&nbsp;the =
discussion at Measuring Network Quality for End-Users workshop and on <a =
href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/network-quality-workshop/=
?gbt=3D1&amp;index=3DcuW_1lh4DD22V28EvlPFB_NjjZY" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">the mailing list</a> indicated, that =
there=E2=80=99s no consensus on what behaviors, symptoms can reliably =
signal the bufferbloat. =
</li></ul></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D"">We are not trying for this responsiveness metric to be "the =
single indicator of bufferbloat". Bufferbloat can be measured in many =
different number of ways. And each of these will produce a correct, but =
a different result. Thus, "bufferbloat" is whatever the methodology =
tries to detect.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Let me give an example of two methodologies that are both =
correct but both will produce entirely different numbers :</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If we would decide to =
generate the load by flooding the network with UDP traffic from a =
specific 4-tuple and measure latency with parallel ICMP pings. Then, on =
a over-buffered FIFO queue we would measure huge latencies (thus =
correctly expose bufferbloat), while on a FQ-codel queue we would not =
measure any bufferbloat.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">If on the other hand, the load-generating traffic is changing =
the source-port for every single UDP-packet, then in both the FIFO-queue =
and the FQ-codel queue we will measure huge amounts of =
bufferbloat.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thus, these two methods both produced correct results but =
with hugely different numbers in the FQ-codel case. [1]</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Now, while both methods =
measure some variant of bufferbloat, they both don't measure a realistic =
usage of the network.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D"">GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for the insights. It seems to me that =
what the method can demonstrate is rather the level of efficiency of the =
AQM in the network for a particular class of =
applications.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Yes, that is a good =
description. It is for a "particular class of applications" and we are =
trying to make this class of applications representative of a "typical =
user-scenario". (admittedly, we can debate forever on what kind of =
applications are representative and I would love to have that debate =
:-)).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">On the =
point of "efficiency of the AQM". I would go even further that it's not =
only AQM but also the client- and server-side implementations of these =
applications (as noted further below).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">That is why the "Responsiveness under =
working conditions" tries to clearly specify how the load is generated =
and how the latency is being measured. And it does not measure =
"bufferbloat" but it measures "responsiveness under working conditions" =
based on the methodology that is being used (using HTTP/2 or HTTP/3, =
multiple flows, ...). It does expose bufferbloat which can happen in the =
network. It also exposes certain server-side behaviors that can cause =
(huge amounts of) additional latency - those behaviors are typically not =
called "bufferbloat".</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D"">GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for pointing out that the result of the =
RTT measurement has two contributing factors - network and =
server.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Yes, servers contribute as do the =
client-side implementations. It's all three (client, network, server) =
that need to work "correctly" to achieve good responsiveness. Btw., as =
we are now gathering more experience with our methodology in different =
environments we find that the biggest portions of latency actually come =
from the server-side. We see several seconds of latency introduced by =
the HTTP/2 and TCP implementations.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">It =
seems worth enhancing the method to localize each contribution and =
measure them separately.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">With the latency =
measuring probes being sent on load-bearing connections and separate =
connections and with the separate connections serving to measure =
DNS/TCP/... individually, the different data-points actually allow to =
localize to some extend.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">However, I would be reluctant to dive too deep into =
localization/trouble-shooting/debugging of networks as part of this I-D. =
As this opens a whole new can of worms. We could then start thinking =
about sending latency-probes while playing with the IP TTL to find which =
router is introducing the latency,... It's an entirely different =
research-topic IMO :-) Dave Taht was thinking of starting something =
along these lines (<a href=3D"https://github.com/dtaht/wtbb" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://github.com/dtaht/wtbb</a>).</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><ul =
class=3D""></ul></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><ul class=3D""><li class=3D"">It seems that =
it would be reasonable to first define what is being measured, =
characterized&nbsp;by the responsiveness metric. Having a document that =
discusses and defines the bufferbloat would be =
great.</li></ul></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D"">I agree that there is a lack of definition for what =
"bufferbloat" really is.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The way we look at "responsiveness under working conditions" =
is that it measures the latency in conditions that may realistically =
happen in worst-case scenarios with end-users/implementations that are =
non-malicious (non-malicious to exclude the UDP-flooding =
scenario).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thus,=
 I assume we should make a better job at explaining this. The lack of a =
formal definition of "bufferbloat" doesn't help and thus we are indeed =
using this term a bit freely in the current draft. We will improve the =
Introduction to better set the stage (<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsivene=
ss/issues/31" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiv=
eness/issues/31</a>).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><ul class=3D""><li =
class=3D"">It seems like in the foundation of the methodology described =
in the draft lies the assumption&nbsp;that without adding new flows the =
available&nbsp;bandwidth&nbsp;is constant, does not change. While that =
is mostly the case, there are technologies that behave differently and =
may change bandwidth because of the outside conditions. Some of these =
behaviors of links with variable discrete&nbsp;bandwidth are discussed =
in, for example,&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8330/" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">RFC 8330</a>&nbsp;and <a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8625/" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">RFC =
8625</a>.</li></ul></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D"">I'm not sure I entirely understand your comment. But let me =
explain why we are gradually adding new flows:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">1. TCP-implementations have usually a =
fixed limit for the upper bound of the receive window. In some networks =
that upper bound is lower than the BDP of the network. Thus, the only =
way to reach full capacity is by having multiple flows.</div><div =
class=3D"">2. Having multiple connections allows to quicker achieve full =
capacity in high-RTT networks and thus speeds up the =
test-duration.</div><div class=3D"">3. In some networks with "random" =
packet-loss, congestion-control may come in the way of achieving full =
capacity. Again, multiple flows will work around =
that.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">GIM&gt;&gt; I =
might have asked several questions at once. Let me clarify what I am =
looking for:</div><div class=3D""><ul class=3D""><li class=3D"">As I =
understand the method of creating the "working conditions in a network" =
is based on certain assumptions. First, seems is that the bandwidth is =
symmetrical between the measurement points. Second, that the bandwidth =
doesn't change for the duration of the measurement session. AFAIK, in =
the access networks, both are not necessarily always the =
case.</li></ul></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D"">We don't have the assumption that bandwidth is symmetrical =
(assuming, you mean uplink/downlink symmetry - please clarify =
otherwise).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The =
load-generating algorithm runs independently for uplink and downlink =
traffic. And it is perfectly fine when both have huge =
asymmetry.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Regarding the stability of the =
bandwidth:</div><div class=3D"">You are making a good point indeed that =
we assume that the bandwidth is to some extend stable while ramping up =
the flows to "working conditions". Admittedly that assumption does not =
always hold, and that is one of the reasons why we try hard for the test =
to not take too long.</div><div class=3D"">I'm not sure how we could =
adjust the algorithm for varying bandwidth without introducing too much =
complexity. I'm open for suggestions :-)</div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><ul class=3D""><li =
class=3D"">On the other hand, I might have missed how the method of =
creating the "working conditions" guarantees a symmetrical load between =
the measurement =
points.</li></ul></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D"">As mentioned above, we don't assume a symmetrical load. Can =
you show us where in the draft we give that impression, so we can fix =
that?</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""><ul class=3D""><li class=3D"">Then, =
I find the motivation not to use time units to express the =
responsiveness metric not convincing:<br =
class=3D""></li></ul></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
40px;border:none;padding:0px" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;"Latency" is a poor measure of =
responsiveness, since it can be hard</div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;for the general public to =
understand.&nbsp; The units are unfamiliar</div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;("what is a =
millisecond?") and counterintuitive ("100 msec - =
that</div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;sounds good - it's only a tenth of a =
second!").</div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Can you expand on what =
exactly is not convincing to you? Do you think that people will =
mis-understand the metric or that milli-seconds is the right way to =
communicate responsiveness to the general =
public?</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">GIM&gt;&gt; Let me =
try. We know packet delay requirements for AR, VR applications. I =
believe that gamers are familiar with these numbers too. The same is =
likely the case for the industrial automation use cases served, for =
example, by Deterministic =
Networking.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I can understand that for a technical =
audience, milli-seconds is easy and familiar. A non-technical audience =
might be more open to accepting a new "higher-is-better" metric. =
Responsiveness is something new and abstract so, it's kind of natural =
that it comes with a new unit.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But I fully recognize that that's a =
controversial topic and can be discussed at length :)</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Cheers,</div><div class=3D"">Christoph</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks a lot,</div><div class=3D"">Christoph</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">[1] And there are many =
networks that prioritize ICMP pings, thus we could observe even more =
different results based on what protocol is used to measure the =
latency.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec =
6, 2021 at 7:53 AM Marcus Ihlar &lt;marcus.ihlar=3D<a =
href=3D"mailto:40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt" =
class=3D"">Hi IPPM,<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D"">This email =
starts an adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness, =
"Responsiveness under Working Conditions=E2=80=9D. This document =
specifies the =E2=80=9CRPM Test=E2=80=9D for measuring user experience =
when the
 network is fully loaded. The intended status of the document is =
Experimental. &nbsp;&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness=
/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiven=
ess/</a><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiv=
eness-01" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-respon=
siveness-01</a></span><span style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D"">This adoption call will last until
<b class=3D"">Monday, December 20</b>. Please review the document, and =
reply to this email thread to indicate if you think IPPM should adopt =
this document.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D"">BR,<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D"">Marcus <u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
</div>

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</blockquote></div></div>
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2022 16:33:58 -0800
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To: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com>
Cc: Marcus Ihlar <marcus.ihlar=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness
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Hi Christoph,
thank you for putting your thought into my comments. Your understanding is
absolutely correct and the new section, as you've outlined it, would make
the document even more useful to a reader. With that plan in place, I
support the adoption of the draft and would help with review and comments.

Regards,
Greg

On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 4:11 PM Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com> wrote:

> Hello Greg,
>
> On Feb 8, 2022, at 1:10 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Christoph,
> apologies for the belated response and thank you for sharing interesting
> details of you using the measurement method. I think that if the
> measurement method can not only provide the Round-trip Per Minute (RPM)
> metric but expose the network propagation and residential components of t=
he
> round-trip delay, then it seems to me, the scope of the draft to be align=
ed
> with the charter of the IPPM WG and I'll be in favor of the WG adoption o=
f
> the work.
> What do you think? What is the opinion of the authors and the WG?
>
>
> I am assuming that with "residential components" you mean the
> server/client-side contribution to the measured latency, right?
>
> In that case, yes the method does allow to separate these, as
> latency-probes are sent on both the load-generating connections and on
> separate connections. The difference between the two represents the
> "server-side contribution" to the latency.
>
> I think what would be helpful would be a section in the draft that
> explains the different sources of latency (network, server, client) and h=
ow
> they affect the final RPM-number and how one can separate out these two
> components. It is also important to understand that the results are highl=
y
> implementation-dependent. And explaining that in this section should help=
,
> I believe.
>
> Would that be in line with what you are looking for?
>
>
> Thanks,
> Christoph
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 4:42 PM Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com> wrote=
:
>
>> Hello Greg,
>>
>> On Jan 6, 2022, at 3:00 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Christoph,
>> a happy and healthy New Year to you and All!
>>
>>
>> Happy New Year to you as well!
>>
>> Thank you for your kind consideration of my notes and detailed responses=
.
>> Please find my follow-up notes in-line below under the GIM>> tag.
>>
>>
>> Thanks for your replies. Please see inline:
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 10:52 AM Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Greg,
>>>
>>> thanks for your comments. Please see inline:
>>>
>>> On Dec 22, 2021, at 11:43 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>>>
>>> Dear Marcus, Authors, et al,
>>> apologies for the belated response.
>>> I've read the draft and have some comments to share with you:
>>>
>>>    - as I understand it, the proposed new responsiveness metric is
>>>    viewed as the single indicator of a bufferbloat condition in a netwo=
rk. As
>>>    I recall, the discussion at Measuring Network Quality for End-Users
>>>    workshop and on the mailing list
>>>    <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/network-quality-workshop/?=
gbt=3D1&index=3DcuW_1lh4DD22V28EvlPFB_NjjZY>
>>>    indicated, that there=E2=80=99s no consensus on what behaviors, symp=
toms can
>>>    reliably signal the bufferbloat.
>>>
>>> We are not trying for this responsiveness metric to be "the single
>>> indicator of bufferbloat". Bufferbloat can be measured in many differen=
t
>>> number of ways. And each of these will produce a correct, but a differe=
nt
>>> result. Thus, "bufferbloat" is whatever the methodology tries to detect=
.
>>>
>>> Let me give an example of two methodologies that are both correct but
>>> both will produce entirely different numbers :
>>>
>>> If we would decide to generate the load by flooding the network with UD=
P
>>> traffic from a specific 4-tuple and measure latency with parallel ICMP
>>> pings. Then, on a over-buffered FIFO queue we would measure huge latenc=
ies
>>> (thus correctly expose bufferbloat), while on a FQ-codel queue we would=
 not
>>> measure any bufferbloat.
>>>
>>> If on the other hand, the load-generating traffic is changing the
>>> source-port for every single UDP-packet, then in both the FIFO-queue an=
d
>>> the FQ-codel queue we will measure huge amounts of bufferbloat.
>>>
>>> Thus, these two methods both produced correct results but with hugely
>>> different numbers in the FQ-codel case. [1]
>>>
>>> Now, while both methods measure some variant of bufferbloat, they both
>>> don't measure a realistic usage of the network.
>>>
>> GIM>> Thank you for the insights. It seems to me that what the method ca=
n
>> demonstrate is rather the level of efficiency of the AQM in the network =
for
>> a particular class of applications.
>>
>>
>> Yes, that is a good description. It is for a "particular class of
>> applications" and we are trying to make this class of applications
>> representative of a "typical user-scenario". (admittedly, we can debate
>> forever on what kind of applications are representative and I would love=
 to
>> have that debate :-)).
>>
>> On the point of "efficiency of the AQM". I would go even further that
>> it's not only AQM but also the client- and server-side implementations o=
f
>> these applications (as noted further below).
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> That is why the "Responsiveness under working conditions" tries to
>>> clearly specify how the load is generated and how the latency is being
>>> measured. And it does not measure "bufferbloat" but it measures
>>> "responsiveness under working conditions" based on the methodology that=
 is
>>> being used (using HTTP/2 or HTTP/3, multiple flows, ...). It does expos=
e
>>> bufferbloat which can happen in the network. It also exposes certain
>>> server-side behaviors that can cause (huge amounts of) additional laten=
cy -
>>> those behaviors are typically not called "bufferbloat".
>>>
>> GIM>> Thank you for pointing out that the result of the RTT measurement
>> has two contributing factors - network and server.
>>
>>
>> Yes, servers contribute as do the client-side implementations. It's all
>> three (client, network, server) that need to work "correctly" to achieve
>> good responsiveness. Btw., as we are now gathering more experience with =
our
>> methodology in different environments we find that the biggest portions =
of
>> latency actually come from the server-side. We see several seconds of
>> latency introduced by the HTTP/2 and TCP implementations.
>>
>> It seems worth enhancing the method to localize each contribution and
>> measure them separately.
>>
>>
>> With the latency measuring probes being sent on load-bearing connections
>> and separate connections and with the separate connections serving to
>> measure DNS/TCP/... individually, the different data-points actually all=
ow
>> to localize to some extend.
>>
>> However, I would be reluctant to dive too deep into
>> localization/trouble-shooting/debugging of networks as part of this I-D.=
 As
>> this opens a whole new can of worms. We could then start thinking about
>> sending latency-probes while playing with the IP TTL to find which route=
r
>> is introducing the latency,... It's an entirely different research-topic
>> IMO :-) Dave Taht was thinking of starting something along these lines (
>> https://github.com/dtaht/wtbb).
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    - It seems that it would be reasonable to first define what is being
>>>    measured, characterized by the responsiveness metric. Having a docum=
ent
>>>    that discusses and defines the bufferbloat would be great.
>>>
>>> I agree that there is a lack of definition for what "bufferbloat" reall=
y
>>> is.
>>>
>>> The way we look at "responsiveness under working conditions" is that it
>>> measures the latency in conditions that may realistically happen in
>>> worst-case scenarios with end-users/implementations that are non-malici=
ous
>>> (non-malicious to exclude the UDP-flooding scenario).
>>>
>>> Thus, I assume we should make a better job at explaining this. The lack
>>> of a formal definition of "bufferbloat" doesn't help and thus we are in=
deed
>>> using this term a bit freely in the current draft. We will improve the
>>> Introduction to better set the stage (
>>> https://github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/is=
sues/31
>>> ).
>>>
>>>
>>>    - It seems like in the foundation of the methodology described in
>>>    the draft lies the assumption that without adding new flows the
>>>    available bandwidth is constant, does not change. While that is most=
ly the
>>>    case, there are technologies that behave differently and may change
>>>    bandwidth because of the outside conditions. Some of these behaviors=
 of
>>>    links with variable discrete bandwidth are discussed in, for example=
, RFC
>>>    8330 <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8330/> and RFC 8625
>>>    <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8625/>.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure I entirely understand your comment. But let me explain why
>>> we are gradually adding new flows:
>>>
>>> 1. TCP-implementations have usually a fixed limit for the upper bound o=
f
>>> the receive window. In some networks that upper bound is lower than the=
 BDP
>>> of the network. Thus, the only way to reach full capacity is by having
>>> multiple flows.
>>> 2. Having multiple connections allows to quicker achieve full capacity
>>> in high-RTT networks and thus speeds up the test-duration.
>>> 3. In some networks with "random" packet-loss, congestion-control may
>>> come in the way of achieving full capacity. Again, multiple flows will =
work
>>> around that.
>>>
>> GIM>> I might have asked several questions at once. Let me clarify what =
I
>> am looking for:
>>
>>    - As I understand the method of creating the "working conditions in a
>>    network" is based on certain assumptions. First, seems is that the
>>    bandwidth is symmetrical between the measurement points. Second, that=
 the
>>    bandwidth doesn't change for the duration of the measurement session.
>>    AFAIK, in the access networks, both are not necessarily always the ca=
se.
>>
>> We don't have the assumption that bandwidth is symmetrical (assuming, yo=
u
>> mean uplink/downlink symmetry - please clarify otherwise).
>>
>> The load-generating algorithm runs independently for uplink and downlink
>> traffic. And it is perfectly fine when both have huge asymmetry.
>>
>>
>> Regarding the stability of the bandwidth:
>> You are making a good point indeed that we assume that the bandwidth is
>> to some extend stable while ramping up the flows to "working conditions"=
.
>> Admittedly that assumption does not always hold, and that is one of the
>> reasons why we try hard for the test to not take too long.
>> I'm not sure how we could adjust the algorithm for varying bandwidth
>> without introducing too much complexity. I'm open for suggestions :-)
>>
>>
>>    - On the other hand, I might have missed how the method of creating
>>    the "working conditions" guarantees a symmetrical load between the
>>    measurement points.
>>
>> As mentioned above, we don't assume a symmetrical load. Can you show us
>> where in the draft we give that impression, so we can fix that?
>>
>>
>>>
>>>    - Then, I find the motivation not to use time units to express the
>>>    responsiveness metric not convincing:
>>>
>>>    "Latency" is a poor measure of responsiveness, since it can be hard
>>>    for the general public to understand.  The units are unfamiliar
>>>    ("what is a millisecond?") and counterintuitive ("100 msec - that
>>>    sounds good - it's only a tenth of a second!").
>>>
>>>
>>> Can you expand on what exactly is not convincing to you? Do you think
>>> that people will mis-understand the metric or that milli-seconds is the
>>> right way to communicate responsiveness to the general public?
>>>
>> GIM>> Let me try. We know packet delay requirements for AR, VR
>> applications. I believe that gamers are familiar with these numbers too.
>> The same is likely the case for the industrial automation use cases serv=
ed,
>> for example, by Deterministic Networking.
>>
>>
>> I can understand that for a technical audience, milli-seconds is easy an=
d
>> familiar. A non-technical audience might be more open to accepting a new
>> "higher-is-better" metric. Responsiveness is something new and abstract =
so,
>> it's kind of natural that it comes with a new unit.
>>
>> But I fully recognize that that's a controversial topic and can be
>> discussed at length :)
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Christoph
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Thanks a lot,
>>> Christoph
>>>
>>> [1] And there are many networks that prioritize ICMP pings, thus we
>>> could observe even more different results based on what protocol is use=
d to
>>> measure the latency.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 7:53 AM Marcus Ihlar <marcus.ihlar=3D
>>> 40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi IPPM,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This email starts an adoption call for
>>>> draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness, "Responsiveness under Working
>>>> Conditions=E2=80=9D. This document specifies the =E2=80=9CRPM Test=E2=
=80=9D for measuring user
>>>> experience when the network is fully loaded. The intended status of th=
e
>>>> document is Experimental.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsivenes=
s-01
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This adoption call will last until *Monday, December 20*. Please
>>>> review the document, and reply to this email thread to indicate if you
>>>> think IPPM should adopt this document.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> BR,
>>>>
>>>> Marcus
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ippm mailing list
>>>> ippm@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ippm mailing list
>>> ippm@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi=C2=A0Christoph,<div>thank you for putting your thought =
into my comments. Your understanding is absolutely correct and the new sect=
ion, as you&#39;ve outlined it, would make the document even more useful to=
 a reader. With that plan in place, I support the adoption of the draft and=
 would help with review and comments.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</di=
v><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" clas=
s=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 4:11 PM Christoph Paasch &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com">cpaasch@apple.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wra=
p: break-word;">Hello Greg,<br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On F=
eb 8, 2022, at 1:10 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div>=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Christoph,<div>apologies for the belat=
ed response and thank you for sharing interesting details of you using the =
measurement method. I think that if the measurement method can not only pro=
vide the Round-trip=C2=A0Per Minute (RPM) metric but expose the network pro=
pagation and residential components of the round-trip delay, then it seems =
to me, the scope of the draft to be aligned with the charter of the IPPM WG=
 and I&#39;ll be in favor of the WG adoption of the work.</div><div>What=C2=
=A0do you think? What is the opinion of the authors and the WG?</div></div>=
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I am assuming that with &quot;=
residential components&quot; you mean the server/client-side contribution t=
o the measured latency, right?</div><div><br></div><div>In that case, yes t=
he method does allow to separate these, as latency-probes are sent on both =
the load-generating connections and on separate connections. The difference=
 between the two represents the &quot;server-side contribution&quot; to the=
 latency.</div><div><br></div><div>I think what would be helpful would be a=
 section in the draft that explains the different sources of latency (netwo=
rk, server, client) and how they affect the final RPM-number and how one ca=
n separate out these two components. It is also important to understand tha=
t the results are highly implementation-dependent. And explaining that in t=
his section should help, I believe.</div><div><br></div><div>Would that be =
in line with what you are looking for?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><=
div>Thanks,</div><div>Christoph</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Regards,<=
/div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" c=
lass=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 4:42 PM Christoph Paasch &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com" target=3D"_blank">cpaasch@apple.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>H=
ello Greg,<br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Jan 6, 2022, at 3:=
00 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Christoph,<div>a happy and healthy New=
 Year to you and All!</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>Happy New Year to you as well!</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
<div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Thank you for =
your kind consideration of my notes and detailed responses. Please find my =
follow-up notes=C2=A0in-line below under the GIM&gt;&gt; tag.</div></div></=
div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Thanks for your replies. P=
lease see inline:</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" cla=
ss=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 10:52 AM Christoph Paasch &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com" target=3D"_blank">cpaasch@apple.com</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>He=
llo Greg,<div><br></div><div>thanks for your comments. Please see inline:<b=
r><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Dec 22, 2021, at 11:43 PM, Gre=
g Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gre=
gimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Dear Marcus, Authors, et al,<div=
>apologies for the belated response.</div><div>I&#39;ve read the draft and =
have some comments to share with you:</div><div><ul><li>as I understand it,=
 the proposed new responsiveness metric is viewed as the single indicator o=
f a bufferbloat condition in a network. As I recall,=C2=A0the discussion at=
 Measuring Network Quality for End-Users workshop and on <a href=3D"https:/=
/mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/network-quality-workshop/?gbt=3D1&amp;ind=
ex=3DcuW_1lh4DD22V28EvlPFB_NjjZY" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">the =
mailing list</a> indicated, that there=E2=80=99s no consensus on what behav=
iors, symptoms can reliably signal the bufferbloat. </li></ul></div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>We are not trying for this respons=
iveness metric to be &quot;the single indicator of bufferbloat&quot;. Buffe=
rbloat can be measured in many different number of ways. And each of these =
will produce a correct, but a different result. Thus, &quot;bufferbloat&quo=
t; is whatever the methodology tries to detect.</div><div><br></div><div>Le=
t me give an example of two methodologies that are both correct but both wi=
ll produce entirely different numbers :</div><div><br></div><div>If we woul=
d decide to generate the load by flooding the network with UDP traffic from=
 a specific 4-tuple and measure latency with parallel ICMP pings. Then, on =
a over-buffered FIFO queue we would measure huge latencies (thus correctly =
expose bufferbloat), while on a FQ-codel queue we would not measure any buf=
ferbloat.</div><div><br></div><div>If on the other hand, the load-generatin=
g traffic is changing the source-port for every single UDP-packet, then in =
both the FIFO-queue and the FQ-codel queue we will measure huge amounts of =
bufferbloat.</div><div><br></div><div>Thus, these two methods both produced=
 correct results but with hugely different numbers in the FQ-codel case. [1=
]</div><div><br></div><div>Now, while both methods measure some variant of =
bufferbloat, they both don&#39;t measure a realistic usage of the network.<=
/div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for the insi=
ghts. It seems to me that what the method can demonstrate is rather the lev=
el of efficiency of the AQM in the network for a particular class of applic=
ations.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, =
that is a good description. It is for a &quot;particular class of applicati=
ons&quot; and we are trying to make this class of applications representati=
ve of a &quot;typical user-scenario&quot;. (admittedly, we can debate forev=
er on what kind of applications are representative and I would love to have=
 that debate :-)).</div><div><br></div><div>On the point of &quot;efficienc=
y of the AQM&quot;. I would go even further that it&#39;s not only AQM but =
also the client- and server-side implementations of these applications (as =
noted further below).</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><di=
v><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div><div><br></div><div><b=
r></div><div>That is why the &quot;Responsiveness under working conditions&=
quot; tries to clearly specify how the load is generated and how the latenc=
y is being measured. And it does not measure &quot;bufferbloat&quot; but it=
 measures &quot;responsiveness under working conditions&quot; based on the =
methodology that is being used (using HTTP/2 or HTTP/3, multiple flows, ...=
). It does expose bufferbloat which can happen in the network. It also expo=
ses certain server-side behaviors that can cause (huge amounts of) addition=
al latency - those behaviors are typically not called &quot;bufferbloat&quo=
t;.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for poin=
ting out that the result of the RTT measurement has two contributing factor=
s - network and server.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>=
</div><div>Yes, servers contribute as do the client-side implementations. I=
t&#39;s all three (client, network, server) that need to work &quot;correct=
ly&quot; to achieve good responsiveness. Btw., as we are now gathering more=
 experience with our methodology in different environments we find that the=
 biggest portions of latency actually come from the server-side. We see sev=
eral seconds of latency introduced by the HTTP/2 and TCP implementations.</=
div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>It seems worth enhancing the method to locali=
ze each contribution and measure them separately.</div></div></div></div></=
div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>With the latency measuring probes bein=
g sent on load-bearing connections and separate connections and with the se=
parate connections serving to measure DNS/TCP/... individually, the differe=
nt data-points actually allow to localize to some extend.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>However, I would be reluctant to dive too deep into localization/tr=
ouble-shooting/debugging of networks as part of this I-D. As this opens a w=
hole new can of worms. We could then start thinking about sending latency-p=
robes while playing with the IP TTL to find which router is introducing the=
 latency,... It&#39;s an entirely different research-topic IMO :-) Dave Tah=
t was thinking of starting something along these lines (<a href=3D"https://=
github.com/dtaht/wtbb" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/dtaht/wtbb</a>)=
.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1e=
x"><div><div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><ul></ul></div></div></div></div=
></div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"auto"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><ul><li>It seems that it =
would be reasonable to first define what is being measured, characterized=
=C2=A0by the responsiveness metric. Having a document that discusses and de=
fines the bufferbloat would be great.</li></ul></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></blockquote><div>I agree that there is a lack of definition for wh=
at &quot;bufferbloat&quot; really is.</div><div><br></div><div>The way we l=
ook at &quot;responsiveness under working conditions&quot; is that it measu=
res the latency in conditions that may realistically happen in worst-case s=
cenarios with end-users/implementations that are non-malicious (non-malicio=
us to exclude the UDP-flooding scenario).</div><div><br></div><div>Thus, I =
assume we should make a better job at explaining this. The lack of a formal=
 definition of &quot;bufferbloat&quot; doesn&#39;t help and thus we are ind=
eed using this term a bit freely in the current draft. We will improve the =
Introduction to better set the stage (<a href=3D"https://github.com/network=
-quality/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/issues/31" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/issues/31=
</a>).</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"auto"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><ul><li>It seems l=
ike in the foundation of the methodology described in the draft lies the as=
sumption=C2=A0that without adding new flows the available=C2=A0bandwidth=C2=
=A0is constant, does not change. While that is mostly the case, there are t=
echnologies that behave differently and may change bandwidth because of the=
 outside conditions. Some of these behaviors of links with variable discret=
e=C2=A0bandwidth are discussed in, for example,=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://dat=
atracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8330/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">RFC 83=
30</a>=C2=A0and <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8625/" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">RFC 8625</a>.</li></ul></div></div></div>=
</div></div></div></blockquote><div>I&#39;m not sure I entirely understand =
your comment. But let me explain why we are gradually adding new flows:</di=
v><div><br></div><div>1. TCP-implementations have usually a fixed limit for=
 the upper bound of the receive window. In some networks that upper bound i=
s lower than the BDP of the network. Thus, the only way to reach full capac=
ity is by having multiple flows.</div><div>2. Having multiple connections a=
llows to quicker achieve full capacity in high-RTT networks and thus speeds=
 up the test-duration.</div><div>3. In some networks with &quot;random&quot=
; packet-loss, congestion-control may come in the way of achieving full cap=
acity. Again, multiple flows will work around that.</div></div></div></div>=
</blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I might have asked several questions at once.=
 Let me clarify what I am looking for:</div><div><ul><li>As I understand th=
e method of creating the &quot;working conditions in a network&quot; is bas=
ed on certain assumptions. First, seems is that the bandwidth is symmetrica=
l between the measurement points. Second, that the bandwidth doesn&#39;t ch=
ange for the duration of the measurement session. AFAIK, in the access netw=
orks, both are not necessarily always the case.</li></ul></div></div></div>=
</div></div></blockquote><div>We don&#39;t have the assumption that bandwid=
th is symmetrical (assuming, you mean uplink/downlink symmetry - please cla=
rify otherwise).</div><div><br></div><div>The load-generating algorithm run=
s independently for uplink and downlink traffic. And it is perfectly fine w=
hen both have huge asymmetry.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Regar=
ding the stability of the bandwidth:</div><div>You are making a good point =
indeed that we assume that the bandwidth is to some extend stable while ram=
ping up the flows to &quot;working conditions&quot;. Admittedly that assump=
tion does not always hold, and that is one of the reasons why we try hard f=
or the test to not take too long.</div><div>I&#39;m not sure how we could a=
djust the algorithm for varying bandwidth without introducing too much comp=
lexity. I&#39;m open for suggestions :-)</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><di=
v><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><ul><li=
>On the other hand, I might have missed how the method of creating the &quo=
t;working conditions&quot; guarantees a symmetrical load between the measur=
ement points.</li></ul></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>As m=
entioned above, we don&#39;t assume a symmetrical load. Can you show us whe=
re in the draft we give that impression, so we can fix that?</div><br><bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><ul><li>Then, I find the motivation not to use time un=
its to express the responsiveness metric not convincing:<br></li></ul></div=
></div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px=
"><div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0&quot;Latency&quot; is a poor measure of resp=
onsiveness, since it can be hard</div></div></div><div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0for the general public to understand.=C2=A0 The units are unfamiliar</di=
v></div></div><div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0(&quot;what is a millisecond?&quo=
t;) and counterintuitive (&quot;100 msec - that</div></div></div><div><div>=
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0sounds good - it&#39;s only a tenth of a second!&quot;).<=
/div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=
Can you expand on what exactly is not convincing to you? Do you think that =
people will mis-understand the metric or that milli-seconds is the right wa=
y to communicate responsiveness to the general public?</div></div></div></b=
lockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Let me try. We know packet delay requirements fo=
r AR, VR applications. I believe that gamers are familiar with these number=
s too. The same is likely the case for the industrial automation use cases =
served, for example, by Deterministic Networking.</div></div></div></div></=
div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I can understand that for a technical =
audience, milli-seconds is easy and familiar. A non-technical audience migh=
t be more open to accepting a new &quot;higher-is-better&quot; metric. Resp=
onsiveness is something new and abstract so, it&#39;s kind of natural that =
it comes with a new unit.</div><div><br></div><div>But I fully recognize th=
at that&#39;s a controversial topic and can be discussed at length :)</div>=
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>Christoph</div><br><bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><=
div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks a lot,</div><div>Christoph</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>[1] And there are many networks that prioritize ICMP ping=
s, thus we could observe even more different results based on what protocol=
 is used to measure the latency.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gm=
ail_attr">On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 7:53 AM Marcus Ihlar &lt;marcus.ihlar=3D<a=
 href=3D"mailto:40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D=
"_blank">40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Hi IPPM,<u></u><=
u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><u><=
/u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12pt">This email starts an adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiven=
ess, &quot;Responsiveness under Working Conditions=E2=80=9D. This document =
specifies the =E2=80=9CRPM Test=E2=80=9D for measuring user experience when=
 the
 network is fully loaded. The intended status of the document is Experiment=
al. =C2=A0=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size:12pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/d=
raft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/</a><u></u>=
<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsive=
ness-01" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/=
doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-01</a></span><span style=3D"font=
-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"=
font-size:12pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12pt">This adoption call will last until
<b>Monday, December 20</b>. Please review the document, and reply to this e=
mail thread to indicate if you think IPPM should adopt this document.<u></u=
><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:12pt">BR,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:12pt">Marcus <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></=
u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br>
ippm mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ippm@=
ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm" rel=3D"noreferrer no=
referrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm</a><=
br>
</blockquote></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>ippm mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ippm@ietf.org</a><br><a hre=
f=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm" target=3D"_blank">https://=
www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br></di=
v></blockquote></div></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br></div></blockquote></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br></div></blockquote></div>

--000000000000dc078205d817ce5f--


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From: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com>
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Cc: Marcus Ihlar <marcus.ihlar=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness
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Thanks a lot, Greg! I filed =
https://github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/issue=
s/36 =
<https://github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/issu=
es/36> and will be working on an updated I-D for the coming weeks.


Christoph

> On Feb 15, 2022, at 4:33 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Christoph,
> thank you for putting your thought into my comments. Your =
understanding is absolutely correct and the new section, as you've =
outlined it, would make the document even more useful to a reader. With =
that plan in place, I support the adoption of the draft and would help =
with review and comments.
>=20
> Regards,
> Greg
>=20
> On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 4:11 PM Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com =
<mailto:cpaasch@apple.com>> wrote:
> Hello Greg,
>=20
>> On Feb 8, 2022, at 1:10 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com =
<mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi Christoph,
>> apologies for the belated response and thank you for sharing =
interesting details of you using the measurement method. I think that if =
the measurement method can not only provide the Round-trip Per Minute =
(RPM) metric but expose the network propagation and residential =
components of the round-trip delay, then it seems to me, the scope of =
the draft to be aligned with the charter of the IPPM WG and I'll be in =
favor of the WG adoption of the work.
>> What do you think? What is the opinion of the authors and the WG?
>=20
> I am assuming that with "residential components" you mean the =
server/client-side contribution to the measured latency, right?
>=20
> In that case, yes the method does allow to separate these, as =
latency-probes are sent on both the load-generating connections and on =
separate connections. The difference between the two represents the =
"server-side contribution" to the latency.
>=20
> I think what would be helpful would be a section in the draft that =
explains the different sources of latency (network, server, client) and =
how they affect the final RPM-number and how one can separate out these =
two components. It is also important to understand that the results are =
highly implementation-dependent. And explaining that in this section =
should help, I believe.
>=20
> Would that be in line with what you are looking for?
>=20
>=20
> Thanks,
> Christoph
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> Regards,
>> Greg
>>=20
>> On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 4:42 PM Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com =
<mailto:cpaasch@apple.com>> wrote:
>> Hello Greg,
>>=20
>>> On Jan 6, 2022, at 3:00 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com =
<mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Christoph,
>>> a happy and healthy New Year to you and All!
>>=20
>> Happy New Year to you as well!
>>=20
>>> Thank you for your kind consideration of my notes and detailed =
responses. Please find my follow-up notes in-line below under the GIM>> =
tag.
>>=20
>> Thanks for your replies. Please see inline:
>>=20
>>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 10:52 AM Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com =
<mailto:cpaasch@apple.com>> wrote:
>>> Hello Greg,
>>>=20
>>> thanks for your comments. Please see inline:
>>>=20
>>>> On Dec 22, 2021, at 11:43 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com =
<mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Dear Marcus, Authors, et al,
>>>> apologies for the belated response.
>>>> I've read the draft and have some comments to share with you:
>>>> as I understand it, the proposed new responsiveness metric is =
viewed as the single indicator of a bufferbloat condition in a network. =
As I recall, the discussion at Measuring Network Quality for End-Users =
workshop and on the mailing list =
<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/network-quality-workshop/?gbt=3D=
1&index=3DcuW_1lh4DD22V28EvlPFB_NjjZY> indicated, that there=E2=80=99s =
no consensus on what behaviors, symptoms can reliably signal the =
bufferbloat.
>>> We are not trying for this responsiveness metric to be "the single =
indicator of bufferbloat". Bufferbloat can be measured in many different =
number of ways. And each of these will produce a correct, but a =
different result. Thus, "bufferbloat" is whatever the methodology tries =
to detect.
>>>=20
>>> Let me give an example of two methodologies that are both correct =
but both will produce entirely different numbers :
>>>=20
>>> If we would decide to generate the load by flooding the network with =
UDP traffic from a specific 4-tuple and measure latency with parallel =
ICMP pings. Then, on a over-buffered FIFO queue we would measure huge =
latencies (thus correctly expose bufferbloat), while on a FQ-codel queue =
we would not measure any bufferbloat.
>>>=20
>>> If on the other hand, the load-generating traffic is changing the =
source-port for every single UDP-packet, then in both the FIFO-queue and =
the FQ-codel queue we will measure huge amounts of bufferbloat.
>>>=20
>>> Thus, these two methods both produced correct results but with =
hugely different numbers in the FQ-codel case. [1]
>>>=20
>>> Now, while both methods measure some variant of bufferbloat, they =
both don't measure a realistic usage of the network.
>>> GIM>> Thank you for the insights. It seems to me that what the =
method can demonstrate is rather the level of efficiency of the AQM in =
the network for a particular class of applications.
>>=20
>> Yes, that is a good description. It is for a "particular class of =
applications" and we are trying to make this class of applications =
representative of a "typical user-scenario". (admittedly, we can debate =
forever on what kind of applications are representative and I would love =
to have that debate :-)).
>>=20
>> On the point of "efficiency of the AQM". I would go even further that =
it's not only AQM but also the client- and server-side implementations =
of these applications (as noted further below).
>>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> That is why the "Responsiveness under working conditions" tries to =
clearly specify how the load is generated and how the latency is being =
measured. And it does not measure "bufferbloat" but it measures =
"responsiveness under working conditions" based on the methodology that =
is being used (using HTTP/2 or HTTP/3, multiple flows, ...). It does =
expose bufferbloat which can happen in the network. It also exposes =
certain server-side behaviors that can cause (huge amounts of) =
additional latency - those behaviors are typically not called =
"bufferbloat".
>>> GIM>> Thank you for pointing out that the result of the RTT =
measurement has two contributing factors - network and server.
>>=20
>> Yes, servers contribute as do the client-side implementations. It's =
all three (client, network, server) that need to work "correctly" to =
achieve good responsiveness. Btw., as we are now gathering more =
experience with our methodology in different environments we find that =
the biggest portions of latency actually come from the server-side. We =
see several seconds of latency introduced by the HTTP/2 and TCP =
implementations.
>>=20
>>> It seems worth enhancing the method to localize each contribution =
and measure them separately.
>>=20
>> With the latency measuring probes being sent on load-bearing =
connections and separate connections and with the separate connections =
serving to measure DNS/TCP/... individually, the different data-points =
actually allow to localize to some extend.
>>=20
>> However, I would be reluctant to dive too deep into =
localization/trouble-shooting/debugging of networks as part of this I-D. =
As this opens a whole new can of worms. We could then start thinking =
about sending latency-probes while playing with the IP TTL to find which =
router is introducing the latency,... It's an entirely different =
research-topic IMO :-) Dave Taht was thinking of starting something =
along these lines (https://github.com/dtaht/wtbb =
<https://github.com/dtaht/wtbb>).
>>=20
>>>> It seems that it would be reasonable to first define what is being =
measured, characterized by the responsiveness metric. Having a document =
that discusses and defines the bufferbloat would be great.
>>> I agree that there is a lack of definition for what "bufferbloat" =
really is.
>>>=20
>>> The way we look at "responsiveness under working conditions" is that =
it measures the latency in conditions that may realistically happen in =
worst-case scenarios with end-users/implementations that are =
non-malicious (non-malicious to exclude the UDP-flooding scenario).
>>>=20
>>> Thus, I assume we should make a better job at explaining this. The =
lack of a formal definition of "bufferbloat" doesn't help and thus we =
are indeed using this term a bit freely in the current draft. We will =
improve the Introduction to better set the stage =
(https://github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/issu=
es/31 =
<https://github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/issu=
es/31>).
>>>=20
>>>> It seems like in the foundation of the methodology described in the =
draft lies the assumption that without adding new flows the available =
bandwidth is constant, does not change. While that is mostly the case, =
there are technologies that behave differently and may change bandwidth =
because of the outside conditions. Some of these behaviors of links with =
variable discrete bandwidth are discussed in, for example, RFC 8330 =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8330/> and RFC 8625 =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8625/>.
>>> I'm not sure I entirely understand your comment. But let me explain =
why we are gradually adding new flows:
>>>=20
>>> 1. TCP-implementations have usually a fixed limit for the upper =
bound of the receive window. In some networks that upper bound is lower =
than the BDP of the network. Thus, the only way to reach full capacity =
is by having multiple flows.
>>> 2. Having multiple connections allows to quicker achieve full =
capacity in high-RTT networks and thus speeds up the test-duration.
>>> 3. In some networks with "random" packet-loss, congestion-control =
may come in the way of achieving full capacity. Again, multiple flows =
will work around that.
>>> GIM>> I might have asked several questions at once. Let me clarify =
what I am looking for:
>>> As I understand the method of creating the "working conditions in a =
network" is based on certain assumptions. First, seems is that the =
bandwidth is symmetrical between the measurement points. Second, that =
the bandwidth doesn't change for the duration of the measurement =
session. AFAIK, in the access networks, both are not necessarily always =
the case.
>> We don't have the assumption that bandwidth is symmetrical (assuming, =
you mean uplink/downlink symmetry - please clarify otherwise).
>>=20
>> The load-generating algorithm runs independently for uplink and =
downlink traffic. And it is perfectly fine when both have huge =
asymmetry.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Regarding the stability of the bandwidth:
>> You are making a good point indeed that we assume that the bandwidth =
is to some extend stable while ramping up the flows to "working =
conditions". Admittedly that assumption does not always hold, and that =
is one of the reasons why we try hard for the test to not take too long.
>> I'm not sure how we could adjust the algorithm for varying bandwidth =
without introducing too much complexity. I'm open for suggestions :-)
>>> On the other hand, I might have missed how the method of creating =
the "working conditions" guarantees a symmetrical load between the =
measurement points.
>> As mentioned above, we don't assume a symmetrical load. Can you show =
us where in the draft we give that impression, so we can fix that?
>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Then, I find the motivation not to use time units to express the =
responsiveness metric not convincing:
>>>>    "Latency" is a poor measure of responsiveness, since it can be =
hard
>>>>    for the general public to understand.  The units are unfamiliar
>>>>    ("what is a millisecond?") and counterintuitive ("100 msec - =
that
>>>>    sounds good - it's only a tenth of a second!").
>>>=20
>>> Can you expand on what exactly is not convincing to you? Do you =
think that people will mis-understand the metric or that milli-seconds =
is the right way to communicate responsiveness to the general public?
>>> GIM>> Let me try. We know packet delay requirements for AR, VR =
applications. I believe that gamers are familiar with these numbers too. =
The same is likely the case for the industrial automation use cases =
served, for example, by Deterministic Networking.
>>=20
>> I can understand that for a technical audience, milli-seconds is easy =
and familiar. A non-technical audience might be more open to accepting a =
new "higher-is-better" metric. Responsiveness is something new and =
abstract so, it's kind of natural that it comes with a new unit.
>>=20
>> But I fully recognize that that's a controversial topic and can be =
discussed at length :)
>>=20
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>> Christoph
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Thanks a lot,
>>> Christoph
>>>=20
>>> [1] And there are many networks that prioritize ICMP pings, thus we =
could observe even more different results based on what protocol is used =
to measure the latency.
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 7:53 AM Marcus Ihlar =
<marcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
>>>> Hi IPPM,
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> This email starts an adoption call for =
draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness, "Responsiveness under Working =
Conditions=E2=80=9D. This document specifies the =E2=80=9CRPM Test=E2=80=9D=
 for measuring user experience when the network is fully loaded. The =
intended status of the document is Experimental.  =20
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/ =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/>
>>>> =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-01=
 =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-0=
1>
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> This adoption call will last until Monday, December 20. Please =
review the document, and reply to this email thread to indicate if you =
think IPPM should adopt this document.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> BR,
>>>>=20
>>>> Marcus
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ippm mailing list
>>>> ippm@ietf.org <mailto:ippm@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ippm mailing list
>>>> ippm@ietf.org <mailto:ippm@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm>
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Thanks a lot, Greg! I filed&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsivene=
ss/issues/36" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiv=
eness/issues/36</a>&nbsp;and will be working on an updated I-D for the =
coming weeks.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Christoph<br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Feb =
15, 2022, at 4:33 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">Hi&nbsp;Christoph,<div class=3D"">thank you for putting your =
thought into my comments. Your understanding is absolutely correct and =
the new section, as you've outlined it, would make the document even =
more useful to a reader. With that plan in place, I support the adoption =
of the draft and would help with review and comments.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Regards,</div><div =
class=3D"">Greg</div></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 4:11 PM =
Christoph Paasch &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com" =
class=3D"">cpaasch@apple.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D"">Hello Greg,<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Feb =
8, 2022, at 1:10 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Hi =
Christoph,<div class=3D"">apologies for the belated response and thank =
you for sharing interesting details of you using the measurement method. =
I think that if the measurement method can not only provide the =
Round-trip&nbsp;Per Minute (RPM) metric but expose the network =
propagation and residential components of the round-trip delay, then it =
seems to me, the scope of the draft to be aligned with the charter of =
the IPPM WG and I'll be in favor of the WG adoption of the =
work.</div><div class=3D"">What&nbsp;do you think? What is the opinion =
of the authors and the WG?</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I am assuming that with =
"residential components" you mean the server/client-side contribution to =
the measured latency, right?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In that case, yes the method does allow =
to separate these, as latency-probes are sent on both the =
load-generating connections and on separate connections. The difference =
between the two represents the "server-side contribution" to the =
latency.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
think what would be helpful would be a section in the draft that =
explains the different sources of latency (network, server, client) and =
how they affect the final RPM-number and how one can separate out these =
two components. It is also important to understand that the results are =
highly implementation-dependent. And explaining that in this section =
should help, I believe.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Would that be in line with what you are looking =
for?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thanks,</div><div =
class=3D"">Christoph</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Regards,</div><div =
class=3D"">Greg</div></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 4:42 PM =
Christoph Paasch &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">cpaasch@apple.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">Hello Greg,<br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jan 6, 2022, at 3:00 PM, Greg Mirsky =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Hi Christoph,<div class=3D"">a happy and healthy =
New Year to you and All!</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Happy New Year to you as =
well!</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Thank you for your kind =
consideration of my notes and detailed responses. Please find my =
follow-up notes&nbsp;in-line below under the GIM&gt;&gt; =
tag.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thanks for your replies. Please see =
inline:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 10:52 AM Christoph Paasch =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">cpaasch@apple.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">Hello Greg,<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">thanks for your =
comments. Please see inline:<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Dec =
22, 2021, at 11:43 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Dear Marcus, Authors, =
et al,<div class=3D"">apologies for the belated response.</div><div =
class=3D"">I've read the draft and have some comments to share with =
you:</div><div class=3D""><ul class=3D""><li class=3D"">as I understand =
it, the proposed new responsiveness metric is viewed as the single =
indicator of a bufferbloat condition in a network. As I recall,&nbsp;the =
discussion at Measuring Network Quality for End-Users workshop and on <a =
href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/network-quality-workshop/=
?gbt=3D1&amp;index=3DcuW_1lh4DD22V28EvlPFB_NjjZY" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">the mailing list</a> indicated, that =
there=E2=80=99s no consensus on what behaviors, symptoms can reliably =
signal the bufferbloat. =
</li></ul></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D"">We are not trying for this responsiveness metric to be "the =
single indicator of bufferbloat". Bufferbloat can be measured in many =
different number of ways. And each of these will produce a correct, but =
a different result. Thus, "bufferbloat" is whatever the methodology =
tries to detect.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Let me give an example of two methodologies that are both =
correct but both will produce entirely different numbers :</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If we would decide to =
generate the load by flooding the network with UDP traffic from a =
specific 4-tuple and measure latency with parallel ICMP pings. Then, on =
a over-buffered FIFO queue we would measure huge latencies (thus =
correctly expose bufferbloat), while on a FQ-codel queue we would not =
measure any bufferbloat.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">If on the other hand, the load-generating traffic is changing =
the source-port for every single UDP-packet, then in both the FIFO-queue =
and the FQ-codel queue we will measure huge amounts of =
bufferbloat.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thus, these two methods both produced correct results but =
with hugely different numbers in the FQ-codel case. [1]</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Now, while both methods =
measure some variant of bufferbloat, they both don't measure a realistic =
usage of the network.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D"">GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for the insights. It seems to me that =
what the method can demonstrate is rather the level of efficiency of the =
AQM in the network for a particular class of =
applications.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Yes, that is a good =
description. It is for a "particular class of applications" and we are =
trying to make this class of applications representative of a "typical =
user-scenario". (admittedly, we can debate forever on what kind of =
applications are representative and I would love to have that debate =
:-)).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">On the =
point of "efficiency of the AQM". I would go even further that it's not =
only AQM but also the client- and server-side implementations of these =
applications (as noted further below).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">That is why the "Responsiveness under =
working conditions" tries to clearly specify how the load is generated =
and how the latency is being measured. And it does not measure =
"bufferbloat" but it measures "responsiveness under working conditions" =
based on the methodology that is being used (using HTTP/2 or HTTP/3, =
multiple flows, ...). It does expose bufferbloat which can happen in the =
network. It also exposes certain server-side behaviors that can cause =
(huge amounts of) additional latency - those behaviors are typically not =
called "bufferbloat".</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D"">GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for pointing out that the result of the =
RTT measurement has two contributing factors - network and =
server.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Yes, servers contribute as do the =
client-side implementations. It's all three (client, network, server) =
that need to work "correctly" to achieve good responsiveness. Btw., as =
we are now gathering more experience with our methodology in different =
environments we find that the biggest portions of latency actually come =
from the server-side. We see several seconds of latency introduced by =
the HTTP/2 and TCP implementations.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">It =
seems worth enhancing the method to localize each contribution and =
measure them separately.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">With the latency =
measuring probes being sent on load-bearing connections and separate =
connections and with the separate connections serving to measure =
DNS/TCP/... individually, the different data-points actually allow to =
localize to some extend.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">However, I would be reluctant to dive too deep into =
localization/trouble-shooting/debugging of networks as part of this I-D. =
As this opens a whole new can of worms. We could then start thinking =
about sending latency-probes while playing with the IP TTL to find which =
router is introducing the latency,... It's an entirely different =
research-topic IMO :-) Dave Taht was thinking of starting something =
along these lines (<a href=3D"https://github.com/dtaht/wtbb" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://github.com/dtaht/wtbb</a>).</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><ul =
class=3D""></ul></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><ul class=3D""><li class=3D"">It seems that =
it would be reasonable to first define what is being measured, =
characterized&nbsp;by the responsiveness metric. Having a document that =
discusses and defines the bufferbloat would be =
great.</li></ul></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D"">I agree that there is a lack of definition for what =
"bufferbloat" really is.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The way we look at "responsiveness under working conditions" =
is that it measures the latency in conditions that may realistically =
happen in worst-case scenarios with end-users/implementations that are =
non-malicious (non-malicious to exclude the UDP-flooding =
scenario).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thus,=
 I assume we should make a better job at explaining this. The lack of a =
formal definition of "bufferbloat" doesn't help and thus we are indeed =
using this term a bit freely in the current draft. We will improve the =
Introduction to better set the stage (<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsivene=
ss/issues/31" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiv=
eness/issues/31</a>).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><ul class=3D""><li =
class=3D"">It seems like in the foundation of the methodology described =
in the draft lies the assumption&nbsp;that without adding new flows the =
available&nbsp;bandwidth&nbsp;is constant, does not change. While that =
is mostly the case, there are technologies that behave differently and =
may change bandwidth because of the outside conditions. Some of these =
behaviors of links with variable discrete&nbsp;bandwidth are discussed =
in, for example,&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8330/" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">RFC 8330</a>&nbsp;and <a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8625/" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">RFC =
8625</a>.</li></ul></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D"">I'm not sure I entirely understand your comment. But let me =
explain why we are gradually adding new flows:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">1. TCP-implementations have usually a =
fixed limit for the upper bound of the receive window. In some networks =
that upper bound is lower than the BDP of the network. Thus, the only =
way to reach full capacity is by having multiple flows.</div><div =
class=3D"">2. Having multiple connections allows to quicker achieve full =
capacity in high-RTT networks and thus speeds up the =
test-duration.</div><div class=3D"">3. In some networks with "random" =
packet-loss, congestion-control may come in the way of achieving full =
capacity. Again, multiple flows will work around =
that.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">GIM&gt;&gt; I =
might have asked several questions at once. Let me clarify what I am =
looking for:</div><div class=3D""><ul class=3D""><li class=3D"">As I =
understand the method of creating the "working conditions in a network" =
is based on certain assumptions. First, seems is that the bandwidth is =
symmetrical between the measurement points. Second, that the bandwidth =
doesn't change for the duration of the measurement session. AFAIK, in =
the access networks, both are not necessarily always the =
case.</li></ul></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D"">We don't have the assumption that bandwidth is symmetrical =
(assuming, you mean uplink/downlink symmetry - please clarify =
otherwise).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The =
load-generating algorithm runs independently for uplink and downlink =
traffic. And it is perfectly fine when both have huge =
asymmetry.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Regarding the stability of the =
bandwidth:</div><div class=3D"">You are making a good point indeed that =
we assume that the bandwidth is to some extend stable while ramping up =
the flows to "working conditions". Admittedly that assumption does not =
always hold, and that is one of the reasons why we try hard for the test =
to not take too long.</div><div class=3D"">I'm not sure how we could =
adjust the algorithm for varying bandwidth without introducing too much =
complexity. I'm open for suggestions :-)</div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><ul class=3D""><li =
class=3D"">On the other hand, I might have missed how the method of =
creating the "working conditions" guarantees a symmetrical load between =
the measurement =
points.</li></ul></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D"">As mentioned above, we don't assume a symmetrical load. Can =
you show us where in the draft we give that impression, so we can fix =
that?</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""><ul class=3D""><li class=3D"">Then, =
I find the motivation not to use time units to express the =
responsiveness metric not convincing:<br =
class=3D""></li></ul></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
40px;border:none;padding:0px" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;"Latency" is a poor measure of =
responsiveness, since it can be hard</div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;for the general public to =
understand.&nbsp; The units are unfamiliar</div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;("what is a =
millisecond?") and counterintuitive ("100 msec - =
that</div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;sounds good - it's only a tenth of a =
second!").</div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Can you expand on what =
exactly is not convincing to you? Do you think that people will =
mis-understand the metric or that milli-seconds is the right way to =
communicate responsiveness to the general =
public?</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">GIM&gt;&gt; Let me =
try. We know packet delay requirements for AR, VR applications. I =
believe that gamers are familiar with these numbers too. The same is =
likely the case for the industrial automation use cases served, for =
example, by Deterministic =
Networking.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I can understand that for a technical =
audience, milli-seconds is easy and familiar. A non-technical audience =
might be more open to accepting a new "higher-is-better" metric. =
Responsiveness is something new and abstract so, it's kind of natural =
that it comes with a new unit.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But I fully recognize that that's a =
controversial topic and can be discussed at length :)</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Cheers,</div><div class=3D"">Christoph</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks a lot,</div><div class=3D"">Christoph</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">[1] And there are many =
networks that prioritize ICMP pings, thus we could observe even more =
different results based on what protocol is used to measure the =
latency.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Dec =
6, 2021 at 7:53 AM Marcus Ihlar &lt;marcus.ihlar=3D<a =
href=3D"mailto:40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt" =
class=3D"">Hi IPPM,<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D"">This email =
starts an adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness, =
"Responsiveness under Working Conditions=E2=80=9D. This document =
specifies the =E2=80=9CRPM Test=E2=80=9D for measuring user experience =
when the
 network is fully loaded. The intended status of the document is =
Experimental. &nbsp;&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness=
/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiven=
ess/</a><u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiv=
eness-01" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-respon=
siveness-01</a></span><span style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D""><u class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D"">This adoption call will last until
<b class=3D"">Monday, December 20</b>. Please review the document, and =
reply to this email thread to indicate if you think IPPM should adopt =
this document.<u class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D""><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D"">BR,<u =
class=3D""></u><u class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:12pt" class=3D"">Marcus <u class=3D""></u><u =
class=3D""></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u =
class=3D""></u>&nbsp;<u class=3D""></u></p>
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
ippm mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">ippm@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm" rel=3D"noreferrer =
noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm</a><br class=3D"">
</blockquote></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">ippm =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">ippm@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm</a><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></blockquote></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></blockquote></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2022 17:00:26 -0800
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To: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>,  Marcus Ihlar <marcus.ihlar=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness
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On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 4:11 PM Christoph Paasch
<cpaasch=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> Hello Greg,
>
> On Feb 8, 2022, at 1:10 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Christoph,
> apologies for the belated response and thank you for sharing interesting =
details of you using the measurement method. I think that if the measuremen=
t method can not only provide the Round-trip Per Minute (RPM) metric but ex=
pose the network propagation and residential components of the round-trip d=
elay, then it seems to me, the scope of the draft to be aligned with the ch=
arter of the IPPM WG and I'll be in favor of the WG adoption of the work.
> What do you think? What is the opinion of the authors and the WG?
>
>
> I am assuming that with "residential components" you mean the server/clie=
nt-side contribution to the measured latency, right?
>
> In that case, yes the method does allow to separate these, as latency-pro=
bes are sent on both the load-generating connections and on separate connec=
tions. The difference between the two represents the "server-side contribut=
ion" to the latency.

I remember vividly how "neat" it seemed that QUIC had adopted the idea
of an inband "ping" in version Q018 in 2012 (or so).

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WJvyZflAO2pq77yOLbp9NsGjC1CHetAXV8I0fQe=
-B_U/edit
Q018: Added a PING frame

What I don't remember or understand at the moment is I'm under the
impression that's in the SSL layer as of http2.0? There a good ref?



>
> I think what would be helpful would be a section in the draft that explai=
ns the different sources of latency (network, server, client) and how they =
affect the final RPM-number and how one can separate out these two componen=
ts. It is also important to understand that the results are highly implemen=
tation-dependent. And explaining that in this section should help, I believ=
e.
>
> Would that be in line with what you are looking for?
>
>
> Thanks,
> Christoph
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 4:42 PM Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com> wrote=
:
>>
>> Hello Greg,
>>
>> On Jan 6, 2022, at 3:00 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Christoph,
>> a happy and healthy New Year to you and All!
>>
>>
>> Happy New Year to you as well!
>>
>> Thank you for your kind consideration of my notes and detailed responses=
. Please find my follow-up notes in-line below under the GIM>> tag.
>>
>>
>> Thanks for your replies. Please see inline:
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 10:52 AM Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com> wro=
te:
>>>
>>> Hello Greg,
>>>
>>> thanks for your comments. Please see inline:
>>>
>>> On Dec 22, 2021, at 11:43 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>>>
>>> Dear Marcus, Authors, et al,
>>> apologies for the belated response.
>>> I've read the draft and have some comments to share with you:
>>>
>>> as I understand it, the proposed new responsiveness metric is viewed as=
 the single indicator of a bufferbloat condition in a network. As I recall,=
 the discussion at Measuring Network Quality for End-Users workshop and on =
the mailing list indicated, that there=E2=80=99s no consensus on what behav=
iors, symptoms can reliably signal the bufferbloat.
>>>
>>> We are not trying for this responsiveness metric to be "the single indi=
cator of bufferbloat". Bufferbloat can be measured in many different number=
 of ways. And each of these will produce a correct, but a different result.=
 Thus, "bufferbloat" is whatever the methodology tries to detect.
>>>
>>> Let me give an example of two methodologies that are both correct but b=
oth will produce entirely different numbers :
>>>
>>> If we would decide to generate the load by flooding the network with UD=
P traffic from a specific 4-tuple and measure latency with parallel ICMP pi=
ngs. Then, on a over-buffered FIFO queue we would measure huge latencies (t=
hus correctly expose bufferbloat), while on a FQ-codel queue we would not m=
easure any bufferbloat.
>>>
>>> If on the other hand, the load-generating traffic is changing the sourc=
e-port for every single UDP-packet, then in both the FIFO-queue and the FQ-=
codel queue we will measure huge amounts of bufferbloat.
>>>
>>> Thus, these two methods both produced correct results but with hugely d=
ifferent numbers in the FQ-codel case. [1]
>>>
>>> Now, while both methods measure some variant of bufferbloat, they both =
don't measure a realistic usage of the network.
>>
>> GIM>> Thank you for the insights. It seems to me that what the method ca=
n demonstrate is rather the level of efficiency of the AQM in the network f=
or a particular class of applications.
>>
>>
>> Yes, that is a good description. It is for a "particular class of applic=
ations" and we are trying to make this class of applications representative=
 of a "typical user-scenario". (admittedly, we can debate forever on what k=
ind of applications are representative and I would love to have that debate=
 :-)).
>>
>> On the point of "efficiency of the AQM". I would go even further that it=
's not only AQM but also the client- and server-side implementations of the=
se applications (as noted further below).
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That is why the "Responsiveness under working conditions" tries to clea=
rly specify how the load is generated and how the latency is being measured=
. And it does not measure "bufferbloat" but it measures "responsiveness und=
er working conditions" based on the methodology that is being used (using H=
TTP/2 or HTTP/3, multiple flows, ...). It does expose bufferbloat which can=
 happen in the network. It also exposes certain server-side behaviors that =
can cause (huge amounts of) additional latency - those behaviors are typica=
lly not called "bufferbloat".
>>
>> GIM>> Thank you for pointing out that the result of the RTT measurement =
has two contributing factors - network and server.
>>
>>
>> Yes, servers contribute as do the client-side implementations. It's all =
three (client, network, server) that need to work "correctly" to achieve go=
od responsiveness. Btw., as we are now gathering more experience with our m=
ethodology in different environments we find that the biggest portions of l=
atency actually come from the server-side. We see several seconds of latenc=
y introduced by the HTTP/2 and TCP implementations.
>>
>> It seems worth enhancing the method to localize each contribution and me=
asure them separately.
>>
>>
>> With the latency measuring probes being sent on load-bearing connections=
 and separate connections and with the separate connections serving to meas=
ure DNS/TCP/... individually, the different data-points actually allow to l=
ocalize to some extend.
>>
>> However, I would be reluctant to dive too deep into localization/trouble=
-shooting/debugging of networks as part of this I-D. As this opens a whole =
new can of worms. We could then start thinking about sending latency-probes=
 while playing with the IP TTL to find which router is introducing the late=
ncy,... It's an entirely different research-topic IMO :-) Dave Taht was thi=
nking of starting something along these lines (https://github.com/dtaht/wtb=
b).
>>
>>> It seems that it would be reasonable to first define what is being meas=
ured, characterized by the responsiveness metric. Having a document that di=
scusses and defines the bufferbloat would be great.
>>>
>>> I agree that there is a lack of definition for what "bufferbloat" reall=
y is.
>>>
>>> The way we look at "responsiveness under working conditions" is that it=
 measures the latency in conditions that may realistically happen in worst-=
case scenarios with end-users/implementations that are non-malicious (non-m=
alicious to exclude the UDP-flooding scenario).
>>>
>>> Thus, I assume we should make a better job at explaining this. The lack=
 of a formal definition of "bufferbloat" doesn't help and thus we are indee=
d using this term a bit freely in the current draft. We will improve the In=
troduction to better set the stage (https://github.com/network-quality/draf=
t-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/issues/31).
>>>
>>> It seems like in the foundation of the methodology described in the dra=
ft lies the assumption that without adding new flows the available bandwidt=
h is constant, does not change. While that is mostly the case, there are te=
chnologies that behave differently and may change bandwidth because of the =
outside conditions. Some of these behaviors of links with variable discrete=
 bandwidth are discussed in, for example, RFC 8330 and RFC 8625.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure I entirely understand your comment. But let me explain why=
 we are gradually adding new flows:
>>>
>>> 1. TCP-implementations have usually a fixed limit for the upper bound o=
f the receive window. In some networks that upper bound is lower than the B=
DP of the network. Thus, the only way to reach full capacity is by having m=
ultiple flows.
>>> 2. Having multiple connections allows to quicker achieve full capacity =
in high-RTT networks and thus speeds up the test-duration.
>>> 3. In some networks with "random" packet-loss, congestion-control may c=
ome in the way of achieving full capacity. Again, multiple flows will work =
around that.
>>
>> GIM>> I might have asked several questions at once. Let me clarify what =
I am looking for:
>>
>> As I understand the method of creating the "working conditions in a netw=
ork" is based on certain assumptions. First, seems is that the bandwidth is=
 symmetrical between the measurement points. Second, that the bandwidth doe=
sn't change for the duration of the measurement session. AFAIK, in the acce=
ss networks, both are not necessarily always the case.
>>
>> We don't have the assumption that bandwidth is symmetrical (assuming, yo=
u mean uplink/downlink symmetry - please clarify otherwise).
>>
>> The load-generating algorithm runs independently for uplink and downlink=
 traffic. And it is perfectly fine when both have huge asymmetry.
>>
>>
>> Regarding the stability of the bandwidth:
>> You are making a good point indeed that we assume that the bandwidth is =
to some extend stable while ramping up the flows to "working conditions". A=
dmittedly that assumption does not always hold, and that is one of the reas=
ons why we try hard for the test to not take too long.
>> I'm not sure how we could adjust the algorithm for varying bandwidth wit=
hout introducing too much complexity. I'm open for suggestions :-)
>>
>> On the other hand, I might have missed how the method of creating the "w=
orking conditions" guarantees a symmetrical load between the measurement po=
ints.
>>
>> As mentioned above, we don't assume a symmetrical load. Can you show us =
where in the draft we give that impression, so we can fix that?
>>
>>>
>>> Then, I find the motivation not to use time units to express the respon=
siveness metric not convincing:
>>>
>>>    "Latency" is a poor measure of responsiveness, since it can be hard
>>>    for the general public to understand.  The units are unfamiliar
>>>    ("what is a millisecond?") and counterintuitive ("100 msec - that
>>>    sounds good - it's only a tenth of a second!").
>>>
>>>
>>> Can you expand on what exactly is not convincing to you? Do you think t=
hat people will mis-understand the metric or that milli-seconds is the righ=
t way to communicate responsiveness to the general public?
>>
>> GIM>> Let me try. We know packet delay requirements for AR, VR applicati=
ons. I believe that gamers are familiar with these numbers too. The same is=
 likely the case for the industrial automation use cases served, for exampl=
e, by Deterministic Networking.
>>
>>
>> I can understand that for a technical audience, milli-seconds is easy an=
d familiar. A non-technical audience might be more open to accepting a new =
"higher-is-better" metric. Responsiveness is something new and abstract so,=
 it's kind of natural that it comes with a new unit.
>>
>> But I fully recognize that that's a controversial topic and can be discu=
ssed at length :)
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Christoph
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks a lot,
>>> Christoph
>>>
>>> [1] And there are many networks that prioritize ICMP pings, thus we cou=
ld observe even more different results based on what protocol is used to me=
asure the latency.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 7:53 AM Marcus Ihlar <marcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.=
com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi IPPM,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This email starts an adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsivene=
ss, "Responsiveness under Working Conditions=E2=80=9D. This document specif=
ies the =E2=80=9CRPM Test=E2=80=9D for measuring user experience when the n=
etwork is fully loaded. The intended status of the document is Experimental=
.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/
>>>>
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsivenes=
s-01
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This adoption call will last until Monday, December 20. Please review =
the document, and reply to this email thread to indicate if you think IPPM =
should adopt this document.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> BR,
>>>>
>>>> Marcus
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ippm mailing list
>>>> ippm@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ippm mailing list
>>> ippm@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm



--
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Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC


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From: Giuseppe Fioccola <giuseppe.fioccola@huawei.com>
To: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>, "draft-fioccola-rfc8889bis.all@ietf.org" <draft-fioccola-rfc8889bis.all@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: AD Review #2 of RFC8889bis
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Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 13:35:46 +0000
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Subject: Re: [ippm] AD Review #2 of RFC8889bis
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Hi Martin,
Thanks for your review.
I can update RFC8889bis as well in the next few days.

Please find my answers inline tagged as [GF]

Regards,

Giuseppe


From: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2022 1:10 AM
To: draft-fioccola-rfc8889bis.all@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: AD Review #2 of RFC8889bis

Giuseppe,

Only two new issues with this one:

1) The formula for L in section 7 is not exactly wrong, but it is very oddl=
y expressed.

(a) In 8321 you introduce the value A, which is the maximum clock skew betw=
een the two nodes. Together with the path delay, this provides the lower bo=
und for L.

In 8889, you introduce m as the maximum divergence between marking nodes, b=
ut the text says this is not clock skew but a result of the nodes being "ov=
erloaded". I don't know if overloading is a concern or not, but if it is, c=
learly it is an issue in the point-to-point case as well!

It would be better if all skew issues -- both clock and overloading -- were=
 brought into a single quantity A. I don't see any reason that marking node=
s would have different properties than counting nodes[1], so why not use th=
e same value?

IIUC, 8321 and 8889 should have the same constraints on L -- the worst-case=
 for clock skew is the same for both.

[GF]: Yes, we can keep it simple and use the same constraints on L. I agree=
 that the additional mismatch between the marking nodes can simply be incor=
porated into A. I will revise the text accordingly.

(b) A question I don't know the answer to: is 3 standard deviations really =
enough in the multipoint case? If there are thousands of possible paths and=
 a few of them are quite a bit longer, won't that introduce many errors? Th=
is isn't a single entity you're sampling, but a heterogenous set of paths. =
Is there a reason to think this is a normal distribution?

[GF]: We can assume that the multiple paths behaviors can still be represen=
ted by distinct normal distributions. In this case, the combination of norm=
al distributions can result in a new normal distribution. So, we can say th=
at the range of 3 standard deviations is still valid under this assumption.

(2) The delay measurement section is vague about one-way vs. two-way delay.=
 Is two-way delay meaningful in a multipath environment?

[GF]: Yes I can add more considerations in section 8. In case of delay meas=
urements on the basis of multipoint paths, the one-way delay value is repre=
sentative of an entire multipoint path and you can calculate the two-way de=
lay by summing the one-way delays of the two directions, as we do for RFC83=
21. While, in case of delay measurements on a single-packet basis (e.g. dou=
ble marking or hashing), it is always possible but it is not immediate sinc=
e you have to couple the measurement on each single path with the opposite =
direction. In this case the NMS can do the calculation.

****

These seem like the sort of questions that would be answered by implementat=
ion and deployment experience. How do we set L? What times of delay measure=
ment are viable? If 8889 doesn't have enough deployment to answer these que=
stions, maybe it's not ready for PS?

[GF]: RFC8889 has enough implementation and deployment experience as RFC832=
1. So it is ready for PS since it is the natural extension of RFC8321 for m=
ultipoint scenarios. If you find it useful, I can add a section about the "=
Results of the Multipoint Alternate Marking Experiment", similarly to RFC83=
21.

Martin

[1] In the multipoint case, the distinction between marking nodes and egres=
s nodes seems artificial -- the diagrams seem to envision traffic going fro=
m left to right, but of course it should be traveling in all directions!

[GF]: To simplify the explanation, we considered one way but, of course, it=
 is always two way. I can highlight this point in the next version.


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Martin,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for your review.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I can update RFC8889bis as well in the next few days=
.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Please find my answers inline tagged as [GF]<o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Giuseppe<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Martin Duke &lt;martin.h.duke@gmail.com=
&gt; <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 16, 2022 1:10 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> draft-fioccola-rfc8889bis.all@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG &lt;ippm@ie=
tf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> AD Review #2 of RFC8889bis<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Giuseppe,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Only two new issues with this one:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">1) The formula for L in section 7 is not exactly wro=
ng, but it is very oddly expressed.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(a) In 8321 you introduce the value A, which is the =
maximum clock skew between the two nodes. Together with the path delay, thi=
s provides the lower bound for L.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In 8889, you introduce&nbsp;m as the maximum diverge=
nce between marking nodes, but the text says this is not clock skew but a r=
esult of the nodes being &quot;overloaded&quot;. I don't know if overloadin=
g is a concern or not, but if it is, clearly it is
 an issue in the point-to-point case as well!<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It would be better if all skew issues -- both clock =
and overloading -- were brought into a single quantity A. I don't see any r=
eason that marking nodes would have different properties than counting node=
s[1], so why not use the same value?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">IIUC, 8321 and 8889 should have the same constraints=
 on L -- the worst-case for clock skew is the same for both.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[GF]: Yes, we can keep it simple and use the same co=
nstraints on L. I agree that the additional mismatch between the marking no=
des can simply be incorporated into A. I will revise the text accordingly.<=
o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(b) A question I don't know the answer to: is 3 stan=
dard deviations really enough in the multipoint case? If there are thousand=
s of possible paths and a few of them are quite a bit longer, won't that in=
troduce many errors? This isn't a
 single entity you're sampling, but a heterogenous set of paths. Is there a=
 reason to think this is a normal distribution?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[GF]: We can assume that the multiple paths behavior=
s can still be represented by distinct normal distributions. In this case, =
the combination of normal distributions can result in a new normal distribu=
tion. So, we can say that the range
 of 3 standard deviations is still valid under this assumption.<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(2) The delay measurement section is vague about one=
-way vs. two-way delay. Is two-way delay meaningful in a multipath environm=
ent?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[GF]: Yes I can add more considerations in section 8=
. In case of delay measurements on the basis of multipoint paths, the one-w=
ay delay value is representative of an entire multipoint path and you can c=
alculate the two-way delay by summing
 the one-way delays of the two directions, as we do for RFC8321. While, in =
case of delay measurements on a single-packet basis (e.g. double marking or=
 hashing), it is always possible but it is not immediate since you have to =
couple the measurement on each single
 path with the opposite direction. In this case the NMS can do the calculat=
ion.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">****<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These seem like the sort of questions that would be =
answered by implementation and deployment experience. How do we set L? What=
 times of delay measurement are viable? If 8889 doesn't have enough deploym=
ent to answer these questions, maybe
 it's not ready for PS?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[GF]: RFC8889 has enough implementation and deployme=
nt experience as RFC8321. So it is ready for PS since it is the natural ext=
ension of RFC8321 for multipoint scenarios. If you find it useful, I can ad=
d a section about the &#8220;Results of
 the Multipoint Alternate Marking Experiment&#8221;, similarly to RFC8321.<=
o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Martin<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[1] In the multipoint case, the distinction&nbsp;bet=
ween marking nodes and egress nodes seems artificial -- the diagrams seem t=
o envision traffic going from left to right, but of course it should be tra=
veling in all directions!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[GF]: To simplify the explanation, we considered one=
 way but, of course, it is always two way. I can highlight this point in th=
e next version.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "MORTON JR., AL" <acmorton@att.com>
To: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>, Christoph Paasch <cpaasch=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
CC: Marcus Ihlar <marcus.ihlar=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/rnAzCcpnbRH4ea0g68G94ZgckqQ>
Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness
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From: Giuseppe Fioccola <giuseppe.fioccola@huawei.com>
To: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-fioccola-rfc8321bis.all@ietf.org" <draft-fioccola-rfc8321bis.all@ietf.org>, "draft-fioccola-rfc8889bis.all@ietf.org" <draft-fioccola-rfc8889bis.all@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: RFC8321bis and RFC8889bis: draft-02
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Hi Martin, All,
Please note that I just submitted new revisions of both RFC8321bis and RFC8=
889bis.
I tried to address the latest comments.

I plan to submit revision -03 of RFC8321bis early next week for the IETF La=
st Call.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fioccola-rfc8321bis/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fioccola-rfc8889bis/

Reviews and suggestions will be welcome.

Regards,

Giuseppe


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Martin, All,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Please note that I just submitted new revisions of b=
oth RFC8321bis and RFC8889bis.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I tried to address the latest comments.<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I plan to submit revision -03 of RFC8321bis early ne=
xt week for the IETF Last Call.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fi=
occola-rfc8321bis/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fioccola-rfc8321=
bis/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fi=
occola-rfc8889bis/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fioccola-rfc8889=
bis/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Reviews and suggestions will be welcome.<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Giuseppe<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness
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Hello Al,

> On Feb 16, 2022, at 8:07 AM, MORTON JR., AL <acmorton@att.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Christoph,
>=20
> you wrote:
>> I think what would be helpful would be a section in the draft that =
explains the different sources of latency (network, server, client) and =
how they affect the final RPM-number and how one can separate out these =
two components. It is also important to understand that the results are =
highly implementation-dependent. And explaining that in this section =
should help, I believe.
>>=20
>=20
> when you say, "...the results are highly implementation-dependent.",=20=

> which implementations are you referring to:
>=20
> Network path? Server? Client? "Working Load" conditions?=20

Network path, Server and Client. Because the layer at which things are =
being measured is right above the HTTP layer. Thus, =
implementation-details all the way from the PHY up to HTTP matter and =
can influence the results.

>=20
> All of the above?
>=20
> Network implementation should influence the results, the others not so =
much (with a standardized metric, we should have equivalent results =
across implementations, at least that's what we said in RFC6576/BCP176). =
And it can be rather difficult to separate the (I count at least 4) =
results-influencing factors.

I think it is impossible to only have network implementation influence =
the results. For example, if UDP is used to measure latency the entire =
UDP-stack, IP-stack,... of the sender and receiver will influence the =
results.

In some way, sender and receive UDP/IP/Driver/... stack is part of the =
"network implementation" here.

For the responsiveness it is exactly the same. We use HTTP/2, and thus =
this is part of the "network implementation".


Does that make sense?


Thanks,
Christoph

>=20
> more stuff to consider,
> Al
>=20
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org>> On =
Behalf Of Dave Taht
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 8:00 PM
>> To: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:cpaasch=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>
>> Cc: Marcus Ihlar <marcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:marcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>; IETF IPPM WG
>> <ippm@ietf.org <mailto:ippm@ietf.org>>
>> Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for =
draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness
>>=20
>> On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 4:11 PM Christoph Paasch
>> <cpaasch=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hello Greg,
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 8, 2022, at 1:10 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Christoph,
>>> apologies for the belated response and thank you for sharing =
interesting
>> details of you using the measurement method. I think that if the =
measurement
>> method can not only provide the Round-trip Per Minute (RPM) metric =
but expose
>> the network propagation and residential components of the round-trip =
delay,
>> then it seems to me, the scope of the draft to be aligned with the =
charter of
>> the IPPM WG and I'll be in favor of the WG adoption of the work.
>>> What do you think? What is the opinion of the authors and the WG?
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> I am assuming that with "residential components" you mean the =
server/client-
>> side contribution to the measured latency, right?
>>>=20
>>> In that case, yes the method does allow to separate these, as =
latency-probes
>> are sent on both the load-generating connections and on separate =
connections.
>> The difference between the two represents the "server-side =
contribution" to
>> the latency.
>>=20
>> I remember vividly how "neat" it seemed that QUIC had adopted the =
idea
>> of an inband "ping" in version Q018 in 2012 (or so).
>>=20
>> =
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WJvyZflAO2=
pq77 =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WJvyZflAO=
2pq77>
>> yOLbp9NsGjC1CHetAXV8I0fQe-B_U/edit__;!!BhdT!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-
>> 4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPeUiZuj5$
>> Q018: Added a PING frame
>>=20
>> What I don't remember or understand at the moment is I'm under the
>> impression that's in the SSL layer as of http2.0? There a good ref?
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> I think what would be helpful would be a section in the draft that =
explains
>> the different sources of latency (network, server, client) and how =
they affect
>> the final RPM-number and how one can separate out these two =
components. It is
>> also important to understand that the results are highly =
implementation-
>> dependent. And explaining that in this section should help, I =
believe.
>>>=20
>>> Would that be in line with what you are looking for?
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>> Christoph
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Regards,
>>> Greg
>>>=20
>>> On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 4:42 PM Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com =
<mailto:cpaasch@apple.com>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Hello Greg,
>>>>=20
>>>> On Jan 6, 2022, at 3:00 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com =
<mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi Christoph,
>>>> a happy and healthy New Year to you and All!
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Happy New Year to you as well!
>>>>=20
>>>> Thank you for your kind consideration of my notes and detailed =
responses.
>> Please find my follow-up notes in-line below under the GIM>> tag.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks for your replies. Please see inline:
>>>>=20
>>>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 10:52 AM Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com =
<mailto:cpaasch@apple.com>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Hello Greg,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> thanks for your comments. Please see inline:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Dec 22, 2021, at 11:43 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com =
<mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Dear Marcus, Authors, et al,
>>>>> apologies for the belated response.
>>>>> I've read the draft and have some comments to share with you:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> as I understand it, the proposed new responsiveness metric is =
viewed as
>> the single indicator of a bufferbloat condition in a network. As I =
recall, the
>> discussion at Measuring Network Quality for End-Users workshop and on =
the
>> mailing list indicated, that there=E2=80=99s no consensus on what =
behaviors, symptoms
>> can reliably signal the bufferbloat.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> We are not trying for this responsiveness metric to be "the single
>> indicator of bufferbloat". Bufferbloat can be measured in many =
different
>> number of ways. And each of these will produce a correct, but a =
different
>> result. Thus, "bufferbloat" is whatever the methodology tries to =
detect.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Let me give an example of two methodologies that are both correct =
but both
>> will produce entirely different numbers :
>>>>>=20
>>>>> If we would decide to generate the load by flooding the network =
with UDP
>> traffic from a specific 4-tuple and measure latency with parallel =
ICMP pings.
>> Then, on a over-buffered FIFO queue we would measure huge latencies =
(thus
>> correctly expose bufferbloat), while on a FQ-codel queue we would not =
measure
>> any bufferbloat.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> If on the other hand, the load-generating traffic is changing the =
source-
>> port for every single UDP-packet, then in both the FIFO-queue and the =
FQ-codel
>> queue we will measure huge amounts of bufferbloat.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thus, these two methods both produced correct results but with =
hugely
>> different numbers in the FQ-codel case. [1]
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Now, while both methods measure some variant of bufferbloat, they =
both
>> don't measure a realistic usage of the network.
>>>>=20
>>>> GIM>> Thank you for the insights. It seems to me that what the =
method can
>> demonstrate is rather the level of efficiency of the AQM in the =
network for a
>> particular class of applications.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Yes, that is a good description. It is for a "particular class of
>> applications" and we are trying to make this class of applications
>> representative of a "typical user-scenario". (admittedly, we can =
debate
>> forever on what kind of applications are representative and I would =
love to
>> have that debate :-)).
>>>>=20
>>>> On the point of "efficiency of the AQM". I would go even further =
that it's
>> not only AQM but also the client- and server-side implementations of =
these
>> applications (as noted further below).
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> That is why the "Responsiveness under working conditions" tries to =
clearly
>> specify how the load is generated and how the latency is being =
measured. And
>> it does not measure "bufferbloat" but it measures "responsiveness =
under
>> working conditions" based on the methodology that is being used =
(using HTTP/2
>> or HTTP/3, multiple flows, ...). It does expose bufferbloat which can =
happen
>> in the network. It also exposes certain server-side behaviors that =
can cause
>> (huge amounts of) additional latency - those behaviors are typically =
not
>> called "bufferbloat".
>>>>=20
>>>> GIM>> Thank you for pointing out that the result of the RTT =
measurement has
>> two contributing factors - network and server.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Yes, servers contribute as do the client-side implementations. It's =
all
>> three (client, network, server) that need to work "correctly" to =
achieve good
>> responsiveness. Btw., as we are now gathering more experience with =
our
>> methodology in different environments we find that the biggest =
portions of
>> latency actually come from the server-side. We see several seconds of =
latency
>> introduced by the HTTP/2 and TCP implementations.
>>>>=20
>>>> It seems worth enhancing the method to localize each contribution =
and
>> measure them separately.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> With the latency measuring probes being sent on load-bearing =
connections
>> and separate connections and with the separate connections serving to =
measure
>> DNS/TCP/... individually, the different data-points actually allow to =
localize
>> to some extend.
>>>>=20
>>>> However, I would be reluctant to dive too deep into =
localization/trouble-
>> shooting/debugging of networks as part of this I-D. As this opens a =
whole new
>> can of worms. We could then start thinking about sending =
latency-probes while
>> playing with the IP TTL to find which router is introducing the =
latency,...
>> It's an entirely different research-topic IMO :-) Dave Taht was =
thinking of
>> starting something along these lines
>> =
(https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dtaht/wtbb__;!!BhdT!yrleDf=
ru- =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dtaht/wtbb__;!!BhdT!yrleDf=
ru->
>> 45Lar4Qe5-4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPRghwEjg$ ).
>>>>=20
>>>>> It seems that it would be reasonable to first define what is being
>> measured, characterized by the responsiveness metric. Having a =
document that
>> discusses and defines the bufferbloat would be great.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I agree that there is a lack of definition for what "bufferbloat" =
really
>> is.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The way we look at "responsiveness under working conditions" is =
that it
>> measures the latency in conditions that may realistically happen in =
worst-case
>> scenarios with end-users/implementations that are non-malicious =
(non-malicious
>> to exclude the UDP-flooding scenario).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thus, I assume we should make a better job at explaining this. The =
lack of
>> a formal definition of "bufferbloat" doesn't help and thus we are =
indeed using
>> this term a bit freely in the current draft. We will improve the =
Introduction
>> to better set the stage
>> =
(https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaa=
sch- =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaa=
sch->
>> ippm-responsiveness/issues/31__;!!BhdT!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-
>> 4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPU0pYBOv$ ).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> It seems like in the foundation of the methodology described in =
the draft
>> lies the assumption that without adding new flows the available =
bandwidth is
>> constant, does not change. While that is mostly the case, there are
>> technologies that behave differently and may change bandwidth because =
of the
>> outside conditions. Some of these behaviors of links with variable =
discrete
>> bandwidth are discussed in, for example, RFC 8330 and RFC 8625.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I'm not sure I entirely understand your comment. But let me =
explain why we
>> are gradually adding new flows:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> 1. TCP-implementations have usually a fixed limit for the upper =
bound of
>> the receive window. In some networks that upper bound is lower than =
the BDP of
>> the network. Thus, the only way to reach full capacity is by having =
multiple
>> flows.
>>>>> 2. Having multiple connections allows to quicker achieve full =
capacity in
>> high-RTT networks and thus speeds up the test-duration.
>>>>> 3. In some networks with "random" packet-loss, congestion-control =
may come
>> in the way of achieving full capacity. Again, multiple flows will =
work around
>> that.
>>>>=20
>>>> GIM>> I might have asked several questions at once. Let me clarify =
what I
>> am looking for:
>>>>=20
>>>> As I understand the method of creating the "working conditions in a
>> network" is based on certain assumptions. First, seems is that the =
bandwidth
>> is symmetrical between the measurement points. Second, that the =
bandwidth
>> doesn't change for the duration of the measurement session. AFAIK, in =
the
>> access networks, both are not necessarily always the case.
>>>>=20
>>>> We don't have the assumption that bandwidth is symmetrical =
(assuming, you
>> mean uplink/downlink symmetry - please clarify otherwise).
>>>>=20
>>>> The load-generating algorithm runs independently for uplink and =
downlink
>> traffic. And it is perfectly fine when both have huge asymmetry.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Regarding the stability of the bandwidth:
>>>> You are making a good point indeed that we assume that the =
bandwidth is to
>> some extend stable while ramping up the flows to "working =
conditions".
>> Admittedly that assumption does not always hold, and that is one of =
the
>> reasons why we try hard for the test to not take too long.
>>>> I'm not sure how we could adjust the algorithm for varying =
bandwidth
>> without introducing too much complexity. I'm open for suggestions :-)
>>>>=20
>>>> On the other hand, I might have missed how the method of creating =
the
>> "working conditions" guarantees a symmetrical load between the =
measurement
>> points.
>>>>=20
>>>> As mentioned above, we don't assume a symmetrical load. Can you =
show us
>> where in the draft we give that impression, so we can fix that?
>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Then, I find the motivation not to use time units to express the
>> responsiveness metric not convincing:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>   "Latency" is a poor measure of responsiveness, since it can be =
hard
>>>>>   for the general public to understand.  The units are unfamiliar
>>>>>   ("what is a millisecond?") and counterintuitive ("100 msec - =
that
>>>>>   sounds good - it's only a tenth of a second!").
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Can you expand on what exactly is not convincing to you? Do you =
think that
>> people will mis-understand the metric or that milli-seconds is the =
right way
>> to communicate responsiveness to the general public?
>>>>=20
>>>> GIM>> Let me try. We know packet delay requirements for AR, VR
>> applications. I believe that gamers are familiar with these numbers =
too. The
>> same is likely the case for the industrial automation use cases =
served, for
>> example, by Deterministic Networking.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> I can understand that for a technical audience, milli-seconds is =
easy and
>> familiar. A non-technical audience might be more open to accepting a =
new
>> "higher-is-better" metric. Responsiveness is something new and =
abstract so,
>> it's kind of natural that it comes with a new unit.
>>>>=20
>>>> But I fully recognize that that's a controversial topic and can be
>> discussed at length :)
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Christoph
>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thanks a lot,
>>>>> Christoph
>>>>>=20
>>>>> [1] And there are many networks that prioritize ICMP pings, thus =
we could
>> observe even more different results based on what protocol is used to =
measure
>> the latency.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 7:53 AM Marcus Ihlar
>> <marcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:marcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Hi IPPM,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> This email starts an adoption call for =
draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness,
>> "Responsiveness under Working Conditions=E2=80=9D. This document =
specifies the =E2=80=9CRPM
>> Test=E2=80=9D for measuring user experience when the network is fully =
loaded. The
>> intended status of the document is Experimental.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft- =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft->
>> cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/__;!!BhdT!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-
>> 4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPU3zpKI3$
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft- =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft->=

>> cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-01__;!!BhdT!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-
>> 4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPf9N-E8h$
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> This adoption call will last until Monday, December 20. Please =
review the
>> document, and reply to this email thread to indicate if you think =
IPPM should
>> adopt this document.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> BR,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Marcus
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> ippm mailing list
>>>>>> ippm@ietf.org <mailto:ippm@ietf.org>
>>>>>>=20
>> =
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm__;!=
!Bhd =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm__;=
!!Bhd>
>> T!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPTFWzNHi$
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> ippm mailing list
>>>>> ippm@ietf.org <mailto:ippm@ietf.org>
>>>>>=20
>> =
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm__;!=
!Bhd =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm__;=
!!Bhd>
>> T!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPTFWzNHi$
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ippm mailing list
>>> ippm@ietf.org <mailto:ippm@ietf.org>
>>>=20
>> =
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm__;!=
!Bhd =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm__;=
!!Bhd>
>> T!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPTFWzNHi$
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> --
>> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
>> =
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps*3=
A*2F*2 =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps*=
3A*2F*2>
>> Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!BhdT!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-
>> 4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPXLNE64R$
>>=20
>> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> ippm mailing list
>> ippm@ietf.org <mailto:ippm@ietf.org>
>> =
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm__;!=
!Bhd =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm__;=
!!Bhd>
>> T!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPTFWzNHi$


--Apple-Mail=_7F0F1375-6931-4C55-A2AD-4E0E54064D68
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hello=
 Al,<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Feb 16, 2022, at 8:07 AM, MORTON JR., AL =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acmorton@att.com" =
class=3D"">acmorton@att.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
charset=3D"UTF-8" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Hi Christoph,</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">you wrote:</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">I think what would be helpful would =
be a section in the draft that explains the different sources of latency =
(network, server, client) and how they affect the final RPM-number and =
how one can separate out these two components. It is also important to =
understand that the results are highly implementation-dependent. And =
explaining that in this section should help, I believe.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">when you say, "...the results are highly =
implementation-dependent.",<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">which =
implementations are you referring to:</span><br style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Network path? Server? Client? "Working Load" conditions?<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Network path, Server and Client. Because the layer =
at which things are being measured is right above the HTTP layer. Thus, =
implementation-details all the way from the PHY up to HTTP matter and =
can influence the results.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">All of the above?</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Network implementation should influence the results, the =
others not so much (with a standardized metric, we should have =
equivalent results across implementations, at least that's what we said =
in RFC6576/BCP176). And it can be rather difficult to separate the (I =
count at least 4) results-influencing factors.</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I =
think it is impossible to only have network implementation influence the =
results. For example, if UDP is used to measure latency the entire =
UDP-stack, IP-stack,... of the sender and receiver will influence the =
results.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>In some way, sender and =
receive UDP/IP/Driver/... stack is part of the "network implementation" =
here.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>For the responsiveness it is =
exactly the same. We use HTTP/2, and thus this is part of the "network =
implementation".</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Does that make sense?</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Christoph</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">more stuff to =
consider,</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Al</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Menlo-Regular; =
font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" =
class=3D"">-----Original Message-----<br class=3D"">From: ippm &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">ippm-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf Of Dave Taht<br =
class=3D"">Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 8:00 PM<br class=3D"">To: =
Christoph Paasch &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpaasch=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.or=
g" class=3D"">cpaasch=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">Cc: Marcus Ihlar &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:marcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">marcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;; IETF =
IPPM WG<br class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">ippm@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">Subject: Re: [ippm] =
Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 4:11 PM Christoph Paasch<br =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpaasch=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">cpaasch=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hello =
Greg,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Feb 8, 2022, at 1:10 PM, Greg =
Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Hi Christoph,<br class=3D"">apologies for the belated =
response and thank you for sharing interesting<br =
class=3D""></blockquote>details of you using the measurement method. I =
think that if the measurement<br class=3D"">method can not only provide =
the Round-trip Per Minute (RPM) metric but expose<br class=3D"">the =
network propagation and residential components of the round-trip =
delay,<br class=3D"">then it seems to me, the scope of the draft to be =
aligned with the charter of<br class=3D"">the IPPM WG and I'll be in =
favor of the WG adoption of the work.<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">What do you think? What is the opinion of the =
authors and the WG?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I am =
assuming that with "residential components" you mean the =
server/client-<br class=3D""></blockquote>side contribution to the =
measured latency, right?<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">In that case, yes the method does allow to =
separate these, as latency-probes<br class=3D""></blockquote>are sent on =
both the load-generating connections and on separate connections.<br =
class=3D"">The difference between the two represents the "server-side =
contribution" to<br class=3D"">the latency.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I=
 remember vividly how "neat" it seemed that QUIC had adopted the idea<br =
class=3D"">of an inband "ping" in version Q018 in 2012 (or so).<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WJ=
vyZflAO2pq77" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://docs.google.com/document/d/=
1WJvyZflAO2pq77</a><br =
class=3D"">yOLbp9NsGjC1CHetAXV8I0fQe-B_U/edit__;!!BhdT!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-=
<br class=3D"">4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPeUiZuj5$<br =
class=3D"">Q018: Added a PING frame<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">What I =
don't remember or understand at the moment is I'm under the<br =
class=3D"">impression that's in the SSL layer as of http2.0? There a =
good ref?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">I think =
what would be helpful would be a section in the draft that explains<br =
class=3D""></blockquote>the different sources of latency (network, =
server, client) and how they affect<br class=3D"">the final RPM-number =
and how one can separate out these two components. It is<br =
class=3D"">also important to understand that the results are highly =
implementation-<br class=3D"">dependent. And explaining that in this =
section should help, I believe.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Would that be in line with what you are =
looking for?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thanks,<br =
class=3D"">Christoph<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Regards,<br class=3D"">Greg<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On =
Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 4:42 PM Christoph Paasch &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com" class=3D"">cpaasch@apple.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Hello Greg,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Jan 6, 2022, at =
3:00 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Hi Christoph,<br class=3D"">a happy and healthy New Year to =
you and All!<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Happy New Year =
to you as well!<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thank you for your kind =
consideration of my notes and detailed responses.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>Please find my follow-up notes =
in-line below under the GIM&gt;&gt; tag.<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thanks for your replies. Please see inline:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 10:52 AM Christoph =
Paasch &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com" =
class=3D"">cpaasch@apple.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hello Greg,<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">thanks for your comments. Please see inline:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">On Dec 22, 2021, at 11:43 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Dear Marcus, Authors, et al,<br class=3D"">apologies for the =
belated response.<br class=3D"">I've read the draft and have some =
comments to share with you:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">as I understand =
it, the proposed new responsiveness metric is viewed as<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>the single indicator =
of a bufferbloat condition in a network. As I recall, the<br =
class=3D"">discussion at Measuring Network Quality for End-Users =
workshop and on the<br class=3D"">mailing list indicated, that there=E2=80=
=99s no consensus on what behaviors, symptoms<br class=3D"">can reliably =
signal the bufferbloat.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">We are not trying for this responsiveness =
metric to be "the single<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>indicator of =
bufferbloat". Bufferbloat can be measured in many different<br =
class=3D"">number of ways. And each of these will produce a correct, but =
a different<br class=3D"">result. Thus, "bufferbloat" is whatever the =
methodology tries to detect.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Let me give an example of two methodologies =
that are both correct but both<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>will produce entirely =
different numbers :<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">If we would decide to generate the load by =
flooding the network with UDP<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>traffic from a =
specific 4-tuple and measure latency with parallel ICMP pings.<br =
class=3D"">Then, on a over-buffered FIFO queue we would measure huge =
latencies (thus<br class=3D"">correctly expose bufferbloat), while on a =
FQ-codel queue we would not measure<br class=3D"">any bufferbloat.<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">If on the =
other hand, the load-generating traffic is changing the source-<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>port for every single =
UDP-packet, then in both the FIFO-queue and the FQ-codel<br =
class=3D"">queue we will measure huge amounts of bufferbloat.<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thus, =
these two methods both produced correct results but with hugely<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>different numbers in =
the FQ-codel case. [1]<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Now, while both methods measure some variant =
of bufferbloat, they both<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>don't measure a =
realistic usage of the network.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">GIM&gt;&gt;=
 Thank you for the insights. It seems to me that what the method can<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>demonstrate is rather the level of =
efficiency of the AQM in the network for a<br class=3D"">particular =
class of applications.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Yes, that is a good description. It is for a "particular =
class of<br class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>applications" and we =
are trying to make this class of applications<br class=3D"">representative=
 of a "typical user-scenario". (admittedly, we can debate<br =
class=3D"">forever on what kind of applications are representative and I =
would love to<br class=3D"">have that debate :-)).<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On the point of "efficiency of the AQM". I =
would go even further that it's<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>not only AQM but also the client- =
and server-side implementations of these<br class=3D"">applications (as =
noted further below).<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">That is why the "Responsiveness under working conditions" =
tries to clearly<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>specify how the load =
is generated and how the latency is being measured. And<br class=3D"">it =
does not measure "bufferbloat" but it measures "responsiveness under<br =
class=3D"">working conditions" based on the methodology that is being =
used (using HTTP/2<br class=3D"">or HTTP/3, multiple flows, ...). It =
does expose bufferbloat which can happen<br class=3D"">in the network. =
It also exposes certain server-side behaviors that can cause<br =
class=3D"">(huge amounts of) additional latency - those behaviors are =
typically not<br class=3D"">called "bufferbloat".<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for pointing out that =
the result of the RTT measurement has<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>two contributing factors - network =
and server.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Yes, servers =
contribute as do the client-side implementations. It's all<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>three (client, network, server) =
that need to work "correctly" to achieve good<br =
class=3D"">responsiveness. Btw., as we are now gathering more experience =
with our<br class=3D"">methodology in different environments we find =
that the biggest portions of<br class=3D"">latency actually come from =
the server-side. We see several seconds of latency<br =
class=3D"">introduced by the HTTP/2 and TCP implementations.<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">It seems worth enhancing the method to =
localize each contribution and<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>measure them separately.<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">With the latency measuring =
probes being sent on load-bearing connections<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>and separate connections and with =
the separate connections serving to measure<br class=3D"">DNS/TCP/... =
individually, the different data-points actually allow to localize<br =
class=3D"">to some extend.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">However, =
I would be reluctant to dive too deep into localization/trouble-<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>shooting/debugging of networks as =
part of this I-D. As this opens a whole new<br class=3D"">can of worms. =
We could then start thinking about sending latency-probes while<br =
class=3D"">playing with the IP TTL to find which router is introducing =
the latency,...<br class=3D"">It's an entirely different research-topic =
IMO :-) Dave Taht was thinking of<br class=3D"">starting something along =
these lines<br class=3D"">(<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dtaht/wtbb__;!!BhdT=
!yrleDfru-" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dtaht/wtbb__;!!B=
hdT!yrleDfru-</a><br =
class=3D"">45Lar4Qe5-4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPRghwEjg$ ).<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">It seems =
that it would be reasonable to first define what is being<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>measured, =
characterized by the responsiveness metric. Having a document that<br =
class=3D"">discusses and defines the bufferbloat would be great.<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">I agree =
that there is a lack of definition for what "bufferbloat" really<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>is.<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">The way =
we look at "responsiveness under working conditions" is that it<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>measures the latency =
in conditions that may realistically happen in worst-case<br =
class=3D"">scenarios with end-users/implementations that are =
non-malicious (non-malicious<br class=3D"">to exclude the UDP-flooding =
scenario).<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Thus, I assume we should make a better job at explaining =
this. The lack of<br class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>a =
formal definition of "bufferbloat" doesn't help and thus we are indeed =
using<br class=3D"">this term a bit freely in the current draft. We will =
improve the Introduction<br class=3D"">to better set the stage<br =
class=3D"">(<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/network-quality/dra=
ft-cpaasch-" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/network-quality/=
draft-cpaasch-</a><br =
class=3D"">ippm-responsiveness/issues/31__;!!BhdT!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-<br =
class=3D"">4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPU0pYBOv$ ).<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">It seems =
like in the foundation of the methodology described in the draft<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>lies the assumption =
that without adding new flows the available bandwidth is<br =
class=3D"">constant, does not change. While that is mostly the case, =
there are<br class=3D"">technologies that behave differently and may =
change bandwidth because of the<br class=3D"">outside conditions. Some =
of these behaviors of links with variable discrete<br class=3D"">bandwidth=
 are discussed in, for example, RFC 8330 and RFC 8625.<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">I'm not =
sure I entirely understand your comment. But let me explain why we<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>are gradually adding =
new flows:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">1. TCP-implementations have usually a fixed limit for the =
upper bound of<br class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>the =
receive window. In some networks that upper bound is lower than the BDP =
of<br class=3D"">the network. Thus, the only way to reach full capacity =
is by having multiple<br class=3D"">flows.<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">2. Having multiple connections allows to =
quicker achieve full capacity in<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>high-RTT networks and =
thus speeds up the test-duration.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">3. In some networks with "random" packet-loss, =
congestion-control may come<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>in the way of =
achieving full capacity. Again, multiple flows will work around<br =
class=3D"">that.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">GIM&gt;&gt;=
 I might have asked several questions at once. Let me clarify what I<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>am looking for:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">As I understand the method of creating the =
"working conditions in a<br class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>network" =
is based on certain assumptions. First, seems is that the bandwidth<br =
class=3D"">is symmetrical between the measurement points. Second, that =
the bandwidth<br class=3D"">doesn't change for the duration of the =
measurement session. AFAIK, in the<br class=3D"">access networks, both =
are not necessarily always the case.<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">We don't have the assumption that bandwidth is symmetrical =
(assuming, you<br class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>mean =
uplink/downlink symmetry - please clarify otherwise).<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">The load-generating algorithm runs =
independently for uplink and downlink<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>traffic. And it is perfectly fine =
when both have huge asymmetry.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Regarding the stability of the bandwidth:<br class=3D"">You =
are making a good point indeed that we assume that the bandwidth is =
to<br class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>some extend stable while =
ramping up the flows to "working conditions".<br class=3D"">Admittedly =
that assumption does not always hold, and that is one of the<br =
class=3D"">reasons why we try hard for the test to not take too long.<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">I'm not sure how we could adjust the algorithm for varying =
bandwidth<br class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>without introducing =
too much complexity. I'm open for suggestions :-)<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On the other hand, I might have missed how the =
method of creating the<br class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>"working =
conditions" guarantees a symmetrical load between the measurement<br =
class=3D"">points.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">As =
mentioned above, we don't assume a symmetrical load. Can you show us<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>where in the draft we give that =
impression, so we can fix that?<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Then, I find the motivation not =
to use time units to express the<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>responsiveness metric =
not convincing:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;"Latency" is a poor measure of =
responsiveness, since it can be hard<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;for the =
general public to understand. &nbsp;The units are unfamiliar<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;("what is a millisecond?") and counterintuitive =
("100 msec - that<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;sounds good - it's only a =
tenth of a second!").<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Can =
you expand on what exactly is not convincing to you? Do you think =
that<br class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>people will =
mis-understand the metric or that milli-seconds is the right way<br =
class=3D"">to communicate responsiveness to the general public?<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">GIM&gt;&gt; Let me try. We know packet delay =
requirements for AR, VR<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>applications. I believe that gamers =
are familiar with these numbers too. The<br class=3D"">same is likely =
the case for the industrial automation use cases served, for<br =
class=3D"">example, by Deterministic Networking.<br class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">I can understand that for a technical =
audience, milli-seconds is easy and<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>familiar. A non-technical audience =
might be more open to accepting a new<br class=3D"">"higher-is-better" =
metric. Responsiveness is something new and abstract so,<br =
class=3D"">it's kind of natural that it comes with a new unit.<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">But I fully recognize that that's a =
controversial topic and can be<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>discussed at length :)<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Cheers,<br =
class=3D"">Christoph<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thanks a lot,<br =
class=3D"">Christoph<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">[1] And there are many =
networks that prioritize ICMP pings, thus we could<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>observe even more =
different results based on what protocol is used to measure<br =
class=3D"">the latency.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 7:53 AM =
Marcus Ihlar<br class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:marcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">marcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hi IPPM,<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">This email starts an adoption =
call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness,<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>"Responsive=
ness under Working Conditions=E2=80=9D. This document specifies the =
=E2=80=9CRPM<br class=3D"">Test=E2=80=9D for measuring user experience =
when the network is fully loaded. The<br class=3D"">intended status of =
the document is Experimental.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft=
-" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr=
aft-</a><br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>cpaasch-ipp=
m-responsiveness/__;!!BhdT!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-<br =
class=3D"">4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPU3zpKI3$<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/=
draft-" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/ht=
ml/draft-</a><br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>cpaasch-ipp=
m-responsiveness-01__;!!BhdT!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-<br =
class=3D"">4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPf9N-E8h$<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">This adoption =
call will last until Monday, December 20. Please review the<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>document, =
and reply to this email thread to indicate if you think IPPM should<br =
class=3D"">adopt this document.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">BR,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Marcus<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">ippm mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" class=3D"">ippm@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/=
ippm__;!!Bhd" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin=
fo/ippm__;!!Bhd</a><br =
class=3D"">T!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPTFWzNHi$=
<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">ippm mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" class=3D"">ippm@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/=
ippm__;!!Bhd" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin=
fo/ippm__;!!Bhd</a><br =
class=3D"">T!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPTFWzNHi$=
<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">ippm mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" class=3D"">ippm@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/=
ippm__;!!Bhd" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin=
fo/ippm__;!!Bhd</a><br =
class=3D"">T!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPTFWzNHi$=
<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">--<br =
class=3D"">I tried to build a better future, a few times:<br class=3D""><a=
 =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3D=
https*3A*2F*2" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?sit=
e=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2</a><br =
class=3D"">Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!BhdT!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-<br =
class=3D"">4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPXLNE64R$<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">ippm mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" class=3D"">ippm@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/=
ippm__;!!Bhd" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin=
fo/ippm__;!!Bhd</a><br =
class=3D"">T!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPTFWzNHi$=
</blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_7F0F1375-6931-4C55-A2AD-4E0E54064D68--


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From: "MORTON JR., AL" <acmorton@att.com>
To: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com>
CC: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>, Marcus Ihlar <marcus.ihlar@ericsson.com>,  IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness
Thread-Index: AdfquNUJKsdYHHTaTOi3VLkEWROGkgNF/40AAqUhp4AAOvLbAAADkD8ABnQ5BIABZlmoAAABuRMAAB7QLrAARH7+AACHceEA
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness
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From: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>
To: "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: Refresh of IOAM drafts for "raw export" and "ethertype encap" 
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Refresh of IOAM drafts for "raw export" and "ethertype encap"
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Hi Frank,

I recall this being presented several years ago. In that discussion, the =
discussion of allocating an Ethertype was something that was going to =
need to be brought up with IEEE. Was this done at any point?

I=E2=80=99d also like to understand how many people would intend to =
adopt and use these specifications; the ethertype specifically seems =
like it is not part of the remit of this group (unless we have a =
particular drive for it), and this could be progressed another way.

Thanks,
Tommy

> On Feb 21, 2022, at 3:57 AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) =
<fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> Dear IPPM,
> =20
> new versions of=20
> * =E2=80=9CEtherType Protocol Identification of In-situ OAM Data=E2=80=9D=
 (draft-weis-ippm-ioam-eth-05) and
> * =E2=80=9CIn-situ OAM raw data export with IPFIX=E2=80=9D =
(draft-spiegel-ippm-ioam-rawexport-06)
> are now available.=20
> =20
> I decided to refresh the drafts, to allow for a discussion at our =
upcoming meeting on the path forward for the two drafts. Both drafts are =
around for quite some time =E2=80=93 and haven=E2=80=99t seen a lot of =
updates nor discussion recently. In the past, we considered both drafts =
as important: The =E2=80=9CEthertype encap=E2=80=9D, because it allowed =
for a generic approach to carry IOAM data fields with GRE or Geneve; the =
=E2=80=9Craw export=E2=80=9D, because we considered a standards-based =
approach to export IOAM data from a node as important (given that right =
now, different implementations follow their own approach).
> =20
> Tommy, Marcus =E2=80=93 it would be great if you could allocate a =
brief slot on the IPPM WG agenda for the discussion, with the objective =
to decide whether we want to evolve the drafts and WG-adopt them.
> =20
> Thanks a lot, Frank


--Apple-Mail=_09985609-606C-49EA-8777-0215BCD78521
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Frank,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I recall this =
being presented several years ago. In that discussion, the discussion of =
allocating an Ethertype was something that was going to need to be =
brought up with IEEE. Was this done at any point?</div><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99d also like to understand =
how many people would intend to adopt and use these specifications; the =
ethertype specifically seems like it is not part of the remit of this =
group (unless we have a particular drive for it), and this could be =
progressed another way.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks,</div><div class=3D"">Tommy<br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Feb =
21, 2022, at 3:57 AM, Frank Brockners (fbrockne) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:fbrockne@cisco.com" class=3D"">fbrockne@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
charset=3D"UTF-8" class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Dear IPPM,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">new versions of<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">* =E2=80=9CEtherType Protocol Identification of In-situ OAM =
Data=E2=80=9D (draft-weis-ippm-ioam-eth-05) and<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">* =E2=80=9CIn-situ OAM raw data export with IPFIX=E2=80=9D =
(draft-spiegel-ippm-ioam-rawexport-06)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">are now available.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">I decided to refresh the drafts, to allow for =
a discussion at our upcoming meeting on the path forward for the two =
drafts. Both drafts are around for quite some time =E2=80=93 and =
haven=E2=80=99t seen a lot of updates nor discussion recently. In the =
past, we considered both drafts as important: The =E2=80=9CEthertype =
encap=E2=80=9D, because it allowed for a generic approach to carry IOAM =
data fields with GRE or Geneve; the =E2=80=9Craw export=E2=80=9D, =
because we considered a standards-based approach to export IOAM data =
from a node as important (given that right now, different =
implementations follow their own approach).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Tommy, Marcus =E2=80=93 it would be great if =
you could allocate a brief slot on the IPPM WG agenda for the =
discussion, with the objective to decide whether we want to evolve the =
drafts and WG-adopt them.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">Thanks a lot, =
Frank</span></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_09985609-606C-49EA-8777-0215BCD78521--


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From: Giuseppe Fioccola <giuseppe.fioccola@huawei.com>
To: Giuseppe Fioccola <giuseppe.fioccola=40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "Martin Duke" <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-fioccola-rfc8321bis.all@ietf.org" <draft-fioccola-rfc8321bis.all@ietf.org>, "draft-fioccola-rfc8889bis.all@ietf.org" <draft-fioccola-rfc8889bis.all@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: RFC8321bis and RFC8889bis: draft-02
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Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2022 10:43:44 +0000
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Subject: Re: [ippm] RFC8321bis and RFC8889bis: draft-02
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Dear Martin,
As promised, I just published revision -03 of RFC8321bis.
I also updated RFC8889bis accordingly.
All the modifications are recorded in the Changes Log.

I think we can now take it through IETF Last Call.

Regards,

Giuseppe (on behalf of co-authors)

From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Giuseppe Fioccola
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2022 2:24 PM
To: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-fioccola-rfc8321bis.all@ietf.org; draft-fioccola-rfc8889bis.all@i=
etf.org
Subject: [ippm] RFC8321bis and RFC8889bis: draft-02

Hi Martin, All,
Please note that I just submitted new revisions of both RFC8321bis and RFC8=
889bis.
I tried to address the latest comments.

I plan to submit revision -03 of RFC8321bis early next week for the IETF La=
st Call.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fioccola-rfc8321bis/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fioccola-rfc8889bis/

Reviews and suggestions will be welcome.

Regards,

Giuseppe


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear Martin,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As promised, I just published revision -03 of RFC832=
1bis.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I also updated RFC8889bis accordingly.<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">All the modifications are recorded in the Changes Lo=
g.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think we can now take it through IETF Last Call.<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Giuseppe (on behalf of co-authors)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> ippm &lt;ippm-bounces@ietf.org&gt; <b>O=
n Behalf Of </b>
Giuseppe Fioccola<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 17, 2022 2:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Martin Duke &lt;martin.h.duke@gmail.com&gt;; IETF IPPM WG &lt;ip=
pm@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> draft-fioccola-rfc8321bis.all@ietf.org; draft-fioccola-rfc8889bi=
s.all@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [ippm] RFC8321bis and RFC8889bis: draft-02<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Martin, All,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Please note that I just submitted new revisions of b=
oth RFC8321bis and RFC8889bis.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I tried to address the latest comments.<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I plan to submit revision -03 of RFC8321bis early ne=
xt week for the IETF Last Call.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fi=
occola-rfc8321bis/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fioccola-rfc8321=
bis/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fi=
occola-rfc8889bis/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fioccola-rfc8889=
bis/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Reviews and suggestions will be welcome.<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Giuseppe<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_bf1e9f55e4324c3c93584a24083fc1fchuaweicom_--


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To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>
CC: "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>, IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Refresh of IOAM drafts for "raw export" and "ethertype encap"
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Refresh of IOAM drafts for "raw export" and "ethertype encap"
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From: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>
To: Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com>
CC: "bew.stds@gmail.com" <bew.stds@gmail.com>, "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)"
 <fbrockne@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: allocating ethertypes for IOAM encapsulations:
 draft-weis-ippm-ioam-eth
Thread-Topic: allocating ethertypes for IOAM encapsulations:
 draft-weis-ippm-ioam-eth
Thread-Index: AQHU4vf4N1wjouVoR0KTPT/dTmy3DqYfO4UAgAAFkYA=
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 09:57:39 +0000
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hi Donald,

Many thanks, this is very helpful.

We'll have to have a discussion in the WG as to the process tradeoffs here.

Cheers,

Brian

> On 27 Mar 2019, at 10:37, Donald Eastlake <d3e3e3@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> So, a bunch of things:
>
> The IANA registry for Ethertypes is Informational. The authority for
> Ethertype assignment is the IEEE Registration Authority (RA),
> available at https://standards.ieee.org/products-services/regauth/index.h=
tml.
> Normally there would be no charge by the IEEE for an Ethertype
> assigned for standards use in the IETF.
>
> There are two "Local Experimental" EtherTypes assigned by IEEE for
> experimentation/development: 0x88B5 and 0x88B6.
>
> The IESG has established a policy on IETF requests for Ethertypes,
> documented here:
> https://www6.ietf.org/iesg/statement/ethertypes.html
>
> This is all a fairly heavyweight process. I don't follow IPPM but I
> think it unlikely the IESG would approve your applying for an
> Ethertype assignment without WG adoption and WG consensus for the
> draft.
>
> When an Ethertype assignment request gets to the IEEE RA, one thing
> they look for is a version number in the information identified by
> that Ethertype. Since Ethertypes are a limited resource, they do not
> want you coming back asking for another one just because your
> information has changed a bit.
>
> Hope the above helps. Feel free to ask if you have more questions.
>
> Thanks,
> Donald
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
> 1424 Pro Shop Court, Davenport, FL 33896 USA
> d3e3e3@gmail.com
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 6:45 AM Brian Trammell (IETF) <ietf@trammell.ch> =
wrote:
>>
>> hi Donald,
>>
>> I'm writing you in your capacity as the IANA expert for the ethertypes r=
egistry. IPPM discussed draft-weis-ippm-ioam-eth today, which wants to allo=
cate an ethertype to be used for IOAM (In-Situ OAM, which adds metadata to =
tunnels for measurement purposes) in protocols that use ethertypes as a nex=
t-protocol header (GRE and Geneve); as IPPM chair, I took an AI to help the=
m figure out the right way to do this.
>>
>> Can you point us to the process here, or is "ask IANA to ask the expert"=
 the process?
>>
>> Thanks, cheers,
>>
>> Brian
>


--_004_CY4PR11MB1672F8771A587E6AD4007E71DA3C9CY4PR11MB1672namp_--


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From: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness
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Hello Al,

please see inline:

> On Feb 20, 2022, at 9:37 AM, MORTON JR., AL <acmorton@att.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Christoph,
> Thanks for continuing this discussion. Allow me to reply and add my =
view below,
> Al
> =20
> From: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com <mailto:cpaasch@apple.com>>=20=

> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2022 7:24 PM
> To: MORTON JR., AL <acmorton@att.com <mailto:acmorton@att.com>>
> Cc: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com <mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com>>; =
Marcus Ihlar <marcus.ihlar@ericsson.com =
<mailto:marcus.ihlar@ericsson.com>>; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org =
<mailto:ippm@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for =
draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness
> =20
> Hello Al,
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 16, 2022, at 8:07 AM, MORTON JR., AL <acmorton@att.com =
<mailto:acmorton@att.com>> wrote:
> =20
> Hi Christoph,
>=20
> you wrote:
>=20
> I think what would be helpful would be a section in the draft that =
explains the different sources of latency (network, server, client) and =
how they affect the final RPM-number and how one can separate out these =
two components. It is also important to understand that the results are =
highly implementation-dependent. And explaining that in this section =
should help, I believe.
>=20
>=20
> when you say, "...the results are highly implementation-dependent.",=20=

> which implementations are you referring to:
>=20
> Network path? Server? Client? "Working Load" conditions?=20
> =20
> Network path, Server and Client. Because the layer at which things are =
being measured is right above the HTTP layer. Thus, =
implementation-details all the way from the PHY up to HTTP matter and =
can influence the results.
>=20
> All of the above?
>=20
> Network implementation should influence the results, the others not so =
much (with a standardized metric, we should have equivalent results =
across implementations, at least that's what we said in RFC6576/BCP176). =
And it can be rather difficult to separate the (I count at least 4) =
results-influencing factors.
> =20
> I think it is impossible to only have network implementation influence =
the results. For example, if UDP is used to measure latency the entire =
UDP-stack, IP-stack,... of the sender and receiver will influence the =
results.
> [acm]
> Agreed, although the one-to-one correspondence of packets on the wire =
and UDP datagrams is an advantage with UDP measurements. Many =
measurement systems use UDP today, and it has been straightforward to =
calibrate the delay introduced by the host stack and remove that =
component when necessary (within a tolerance of variation appropriate =
for network measurements, it may be nearly deterministic).
> =20
> In some way, sender and receive UDP/IP/Driver/... stack is part of the =
"network implementation" here.
> [acm]
> We have performed the calibrations of the stack so that we can =
continue to use the notion of =E2=80=9Cwire-time=E2=80=9D (that separate =
stack from network).
> =20
> For the responsiveness it is exactly the same. We use HTTP/2, and thus =
this is part of the "network implementation".
> [acm]
> I would like to see more on this, because:
> I haven=E2=80=99t measured or attempted to calibrate delays this high =
in the stack myself. But I suspect there may be less determinism and =
more host processing time/variation compared to UDP delay measurements. =
This is one place that new forms of implementation dependence might =
creep-in, in addition to the aspect of Working-Load generation (another =
possible implementation-dependency mentioned above).

The methodology does allow to some extend factor out network-latency =
from end-host latency by sending probes on load-generating and separate =
connections. So, that should allow to calibrate things to some extend.

Now, with these discussion I am wondering about one thing:

Why would one want to calibrate out the end-host latency from the =
measurement? Sure, when trying to debug things to identify the sources =
of bufferbloat. But for debugging the method described in the draft is a =
very poor tool. When I'm debugging bufferbloat, I resort back to =
traceroute, tcptraceroute, ping, iperf, curl,...

So, I don't fully understand why one would want to calibrate the =
end-host latency away from the measurement. Because, at the end that is =
what the end-users are experiencing and so I want to measure it entirely =
end-to-end. Responsiveness really is a metric that is focused on the =
end-user and not the network in isolation.


Christoph


> =20
> =20
> Does that make sense?
> =20
> =20
> Thanks,
> Christoph
>=20
>=20
>=20
> more stuff to consider,
> Al
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org>> On =
Behalf Of Dave Taht
> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 8:00 PM
> To: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:cpaasch=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>
> Cc: Marcus Ihlar <marcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:marcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>; IETF IPPM WG
> <ippm@ietf.org <mailto:ippm@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for =
draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness
>=20
> On Tue, Feb 15, 2022 at 4:11 PM Christoph Paasch
> <cpaasch=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:cpaasch=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Hello Greg,
>=20
> On Feb 8, 2022, at 1:10 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com =
<mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Christoph,
> apologies for the belated response and thank you for sharing =
interesting
> details of you using the measurement method. I think that if the =
measurement
> method can not only provide the Round-trip Per Minute (RPM) metric but =
expose
> the network propagation and residential components of the round-trip =
delay,
> then it seems to me, the scope of the draft to be aligned with the =
charter of
> the IPPM WG and I'll be in favor of the WG adoption of the work.
>=20
> What do you think? What is the opinion of the authors and the WG?
>=20
>=20
> I am assuming that with "residential components" you mean the =
server/client-
> side contribution to the measured latency, right?
>=20
>=20
> In that case, yes the method does allow to separate these, as =
latency-probes
> are sent on both the load-generating connections and on separate =
connections.
> The difference between the two represents the "server-side =
contribution" to
> the latency.
>=20
> I remember vividly how "neat" it seemed that QUIC had adopted the idea
> of an inband "ping" in version Q018 in 2012 (or so).
>=20
> =
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WJvyZflAO2=
pq77 =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/docs.google.com/document/d/1WJvyZflAO2=
pq77>
> yOLbp9NsGjC1CHetAXV8I0fQe-B_U/edit__;!!BhdT!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-
> 4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPeUiZuj5$
> Q018: Added a PING frame
>=20
> What I don't remember or understand at the moment is I'm under the
> impression that's in the SSL layer as of http2.0? There a good ref?
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I think what would be helpful would be a section in the draft that =
explains
> the different sources of latency (network, server, client) and how =
they affect
> the final RPM-number and how one can separate out these two =
components. It is
> also important to understand that the results are highly =
implementation-
> dependent. And explaining that in this section should help, I believe.
>=20
>=20
> Would that be in line with what you are looking for?
>=20
>=20
> Thanks,
> Christoph
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Regards,
> Greg
>=20
> On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 4:42 PM Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com =
<mailto:cpaasch@apple.com>> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Hello Greg,
>=20
> On Jan 6, 2022, at 3:00 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com =
<mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Christoph,
> a happy and healthy New Year to you and All!
>=20
>=20
> Happy New Year to you as well!
>=20
> Thank you for your kind consideration of my notes and detailed =
responses.
> Please find my follow-up notes in-line below under the GIM>> tag.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Thanks for your replies. Please see inline:
>=20
> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 10:52 AM Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com =
<mailto:cpaasch@apple.com>> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Hello Greg,
>=20
> thanks for your comments. Please see inline:
>=20
> On Dec 22, 2021, at 11:43 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com =
<mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>> wrote:
>=20
> Dear Marcus, Authors, et al,
> apologies for the belated response.
> I've read the draft and have some comments to share with you:
>=20
> as I understand it, the proposed new responsiveness metric is viewed =
as
> the single indicator of a bufferbloat condition in a network. As I =
recall, the
> discussion at Measuring Network Quality for End-Users workshop and on =
the
> mailing list indicated, that there=E2=80=99s no consensus on what =
behaviors, symptoms
> can reliably signal the bufferbloat.
>=20
>=20
> We are not trying for this responsiveness metric to be "the single
> indicator of bufferbloat". Bufferbloat can be measured in many =
different
> number of ways. And each of these will produce a correct, but a =
different
> result. Thus, "bufferbloat" is whatever the methodology tries to =
detect.
>=20
>=20
> Let me give an example of two methodologies that are both correct but =
both
> will produce entirely different numbers :
>=20
>=20
> If we would decide to generate the load by flooding the network with =
UDP
> traffic from a specific 4-tuple and measure latency with parallel ICMP =
pings.
> Then, on a over-buffered FIFO queue we would measure huge latencies =
(thus
> correctly expose bufferbloat), while on a FQ-codel queue we would not =
measure
> any bufferbloat.
>=20
>=20
> If on the other hand, the load-generating traffic is changing the =
source-
> port for every single UDP-packet, then in both the FIFO-queue and the =
FQ-codel
> queue we will measure huge amounts of bufferbloat.
>=20
>=20
> Thus, these two methods both produced correct results but with hugely
> different numbers in the FQ-codel case. [1]
>=20
>=20
> Now, while both methods measure some variant of bufferbloat, they both
> don't measure a realistic usage of the network.
>=20
>=20
> GIM>> Thank you for the insights. It seems to me that what the method =
can
> demonstrate is rather the level of efficiency of the AQM in the =
network for a
> particular class of applications.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Yes, that is a good description. It is for a "particular class of
> applications" and we are trying to make this class of applications
> representative of a "typical user-scenario". (admittedly, we can =
debate
> forever on what kind of applications are representative and I would =
love to
> have that debate :-)).
>=20
>=20
> On the point of "efficiency of the AQM". I would go even further that =
it's
> not only AQM but also the client- and server-side implementations of =
these
> applications (as noted further below).
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> That is why the "Responsiveness under working conditions" tries to =
clearly
> specify how the load is generated and how the latency is being =
measured. And
> it does not measure "bufferbloat" but it measures "responsiveness =
under
> working conditions" based on the methodology that is being used (using =
HTTP/2
> or HTTP/3, multiple flows, ...). It does expose bufferbloat which can =
happen
> in the network. It also exposes certain server-side behaviors that can =
cause
> (huge amounts of) additional latency - those behaviors are typically =
not
> called "bufferbloat".
>=20
>=20
> GIM>> Thank you for pointing out that the result of the RTT =
measurement has
> two contributing factors - network and server.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Yes, servers contribute as do the client-side implementations. It's =
all
> three (client, network, server) that need to work "correctly" to =
achieve good
> responsiveness. Btw., as we are now gathering more experience with our
> methodology in different environments we find that the biggest =
portions of
> latency actually come from the server-side. We see several seconds of =
latency
> introduced by the HTTP/2 and TCP implementations.
>=20
>=20
> It seems worth enhancing the method to localize each contribution and
> measure them separately.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> With the latency measuring probes being sent on load-bearing =
connections
> and separate connections and with the separate connections serving to =
measure
> DNS/TCP/... individually, the different data-points actually allow to =
localize
> to some extend.
>=20
>=20
> However, I would be reluctant to dive too deep into =
localization/trouble-
> shooting/debugging of networks as part of this I-D. As this opens a =
whole new
> can of worms. We could then start thinking about sending =
latency-probes while
> playing with the IP TTL to find which router is introducing the =
latency,...
> It's an entirely different research-topic IMO :-) Dave Taht was =
thinking of
> starting something along these lines
> =
(https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dtaht/wtbb__;!!BhdT!yrleDf=
ru- =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/dtaht/wtbb__;!!BhdT!yrleDfr=
u->
> 45Lar4Qe5-4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPRghwEjg$ ).
>=20
>=20
>=20
> It seems that it would be reasonable to first define what is being
> measured, characterized by the responsiveness metric. Having a =
document that
> discusses and defines the bufferbloat would be great.
>=20
>=20
> I agree that there is a lack of definition for what "bufferbloat" =
really
> is.
>=20
>=20
> The way we look at "responsiveness under working conditions" is that =
it
> measures the latency in conditions that may realistically happen in =
worst-case
> scenarios with end-users/implementations that are non-malicious =
(non-malicious
> to exclude the UDP-flooding scenario).
>=20
>=20
> Thus, I assume we should make a better job at explaining this. The =
lack of
> a formal definition of "bufferbloat" doesn't help and thus we are =
indeed using
> this term a bit freely in the current draft. We will improve the =
Introduction
> to better set the stage
> =
(https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaa=
sch- =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/network-quality/draft-cpaas=
ch->
> ippm-responsiveness/issues/31__;!!BhdT!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-
> 4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPU0pYBOv$ ).
>=20
>=20
> It seems like in the foundation of the methodology described in the =
draft
> lies the assumption that without adding new flows the available =
bandwidth is
> constant, does not change. While that is mostly the case, there are
> technologies that behave differently and may change bandwidth because =
of the
> outside conditions. Some of these behaviors of links with variable =
discrete
> bandwidth are discussed in, for example, RFC 8330 and RFC 8625.
>=20
>=20
> I'm not sure I entirely understand your comment. But let me explain =
why we
> are gradually adding new flows:
>=20
>=20
> 1. TCP-implementations have usually a fixed limit for the upper bound =
of
> the receive window. In some networks that upper bound is lower than =
the BDP of
> the network. Thus, the only way to reach full capacity is by having =
multiple
> flows.
>=20
> 2. Having multiple connections allows to quicker achieve full capacity =
in
> high-RTT networks and thus speeds up the test-duration.
>=20
> 3. In some networks with "random" packet-loss, congestion-control may =
come
> in the way of achieving full capacity. Again, multiple flows will work =
around
> that.
>=20
>=20
> GIM>> I might have asked several questions at once. Let me clarify =
what I
> am looking for:
>=20
>=20
> As I understand the method of creating the "working conditions in a
> network" is based on certain assumptions. First, seems is that the =
bandwidth
> is symmetrical between the measurement points. Second, that the =
bandwidth
> doesn't change for the duration of the measurement session. AFAIK, in =
the
> access networks, both are not necessarily always the case.
>=20
>=20
> We don't have the assumption that bandwidth is symmetrical (assuming, =
you
> mean uplink/downlink symmetry - please clarify otherwise).
>=20
>=20
> The load-generating algorithm runs independently for uplink and =
downlink
> traffic. And it is perfectly fine when both have huge asymmetry.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Regarding the stability of the bandwidth:
> You are making a good point indeed that we assume that the bandwidth =
is to
> some extend stable while ramping up the flows to "working conditions".
> Admittedly that assumption does not always hold, and that is one of =
the
> reasons why we try hard for the test to not take too long.
>=20
> I'm not sure how we could adjust the algorithm for varying bandwidth
> without introducing too much complexity. I'm open for suggestions :-)
>=20
>=20
> On the other hand, I might have missed how the method of creating the
> "working conditions" guarantees a symmetrical load between the =
measurement
> points.
>=20
>=20
> As mentioned above, we don't assume a symmetrical load. Can you show =
us
> where in the draft we give that impression, so we can fix that?
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Then, I find the motivation not to use time units to express the
> responsiveness metric not convincing:
>=20
>=20
>   "Latency" is a poor measure of responsiveness, since it can be hard
>   for the general public to understand.  The units are unfamiliar
>   ("what is a millisecond?") and counterintuitive ("100 msec - that
>   sounds good - it's only a tenth of a second!").
>=20
>=20
> Can you expand on what exactly is not convincing to you? Do you think =
that
> people will mis-understand the metric or that milli-seconds is the =
right way
> to communicate responsiveness to the general public?
>=20
>=20
> GIM>> Let me try. We know packet delay requirements for AR, VR
> applications. I believe that gamers are familiar with these numbers =
too. The
> same is likely the case for the industrial automation use cases =
served, for
> example, by Deterministic Networking.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I can understand that for a technical audience, milli-seconds is easy =
and
> familiar. A non-technical audience might be more open to accepting a =
new
> "higher-is-better" metric. Responsiveness is something new and =
abstract so,
> it's kind of natural that it comes with a new unit.
>=20
>=20
> But I fully recognize that that's a controversial topic and can be
> discussed at length :)
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Cheers,
> Christoph
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Thanks a lot,
> Christoph
>=20
> [1] And there are many networks that prioritize ICMP pings, thus we =
could
> observe even more different results based on what protocol is used to =
measure
> the latency.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 7:53 AM Marcus Ihlar
> <marcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:marcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Hi IPPM,
>=20
>=20
>=20
> This email starts an adoption call for =
draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness,
> "Responsiveness under Working Conditions=E2=80=9D. This document =
specifies the =E2=80=9CRPM
> Test=E2=80=9D for measuring user experience when the network is fully =
loaded. The
> intended status of the document is Experimental.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft- =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft->
> cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/__;!!BhdT!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-
> 4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPU3zpKI3$
>=20
>=20
> =
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft- =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft->
> cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-01__;!!BhdT!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-
> 4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPf9N-E8h$
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> This adoption call will last until Monday, December 20. Please review =
the
> document, and reply to this email thread to indicate if you think IPPM =
should
> adopt this document.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> BR,
>=20
> Marcus
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org <mailto:ippm@ietf.org>
> =
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm__;!=
!Bhd =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm__;!=
!Bhd>
> T!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPTFWzNHi$
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org <mailto:ippm@ietf.org>
> =
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm__;!=
!Bhd =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm__;!=
!Bhd>
> T!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPTFWzNHi$
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org <mailto:ippm@ietf.org>
> =
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm__;!=
!Bhd =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm__;!=
!Bhd>
> T!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPTFWzNHi$
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --
> I tried to build a better future, a few times:
> =
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps*3=
A*2F*2 =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/wayforward.archive.org/?site=3Dhttps*3=
A*2F*2>
> Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!BhdT!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-
> 4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPXLNE64R$
>=20
> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org <mailto:ippm@ietf.org>
> =
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm__;!=
!Bhd =
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm__;!=
!Bhd>
> T!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPTFWzNHi$
> =20


--Apple-Mail=_A267F392-12F3-41E8-8758-E36CC38B3A66
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hello=
 Al,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">please see =
inline:<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Feb 20, 2022, at 9:37 AM, MORTON JR., AL =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acmorton@att.com" =
class=3D"">acmorton@att.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
charset=3D"UTF-8" class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">Hi Christoph,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">Thanks for =
continuing this discussion. Allow me to reply and add my view below,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">Al<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; =
padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Christoph Paasch &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">cpaasch@apple.com</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thursday, February 17, 2022 =
7:24 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>MORTON JR., AL &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:acmorton@att.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">acmorton@att.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dave Taht &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dave.taht@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">dave.taht@gmail.com</a>&gt;; =
Marcus Ihlar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marcus.ihlar@ericsson.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">marcus.ihlar@ericsson.com</a>&gt;; IETF IPPM WG &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">ippm@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [ippm] Adoption call =
for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">Hello =
Al,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">On Feb 16, 2022, at =
8:07 AM, MORTON JR., AL &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:acmorton@att.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">acmorton@att.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">Hi Christoph,<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">you wrote:<br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-variant-caps: normal; text-align: start; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px; word-spacing: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">I think what would be =
helpful would be a section in the draft that explains the different =
sources of latency (network, server, client) and how they affect the =
final RPM-number and how one can separate out these two components. It =
is also important to understand that the results are highly =
implementation-dependent. And explaining that in this section should =
help, I believe.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">when you say, "...the =
results are highly implementation-dependent.",<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">which =
implementations are you referring to:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Network=
 path? Server? Client? "Working Load" conditions?<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">Network path, Server and =
Client. Because the layer at which things are being measured is right =
above the HTTP layer. Thus, implementation-details all the way from the =
PHY up to HTTP matter and can influence the results.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">All of the above?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Network implementation should influence the results, the =
others not so much (with a standardized metric, we should have =
equivalent results across implementations, at least that's what we said =
in RFC6576/BCP176). And it can be rather difficult to separate the (I =
count at least 4) results-influencing factors.</span><span class=3D""><o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">I think it is impossible to =
only have network implementation influence the results. For example, if =
UDP is used to measure latency the entire UDP-stack, IP-stack,... of the =
sender and receiver will influence the results.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">[<span class=3D"SpellE">acm</span>]<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">Agreed, although the one-to-one correspondence of =
packets on the wire and UDP datagrams is an advantage with UDP =
measurements. Many measurement systems use UDP today, and it has been =
straightforward to calibrate the delay introduced by the host stack and =
remove that component when necessary (within a tolerance of variation =
appropriate for network measurements, it may be nearly =
deterministic).</span></i></b></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockq=
uote><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in =
0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">In some way, sender and receive =
UDP/IP/Driver/... stack is part of the "network implementation" =
here.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">[<span class=3D"SpellE">acm</span>]<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">We have performed the calibrations of the stack =
so that we can continue to use the notion of =E2=80=9Cwire-time=E2=80=9D =
(that separate stack from network).</span></i></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">For the responsiveness =
it is exactly the same. We use HTTP/2, and thus this is part of the =
"network implementation".<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">[<span =
class=3D"SpellE">acm</span>]<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">I would like to see more on this, because:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></i></b></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">I haven=E2=80=99t measured or attempted to =
calibrate delays this high in the stack myself. But I suspect there may =
be less determinism and more host processing time/variation compared to =
UDP delay measurements. This is one place that new forms of =
implementation dependence might creep-in, in addition to the aspect of =
Working-Load generation (another possible implementation-dependency =
mentioned =
above).</span></i></b></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><di=
v><br class=3D""></div><div>The methodology does allow to some extend =
factor out network-latency from end-host latency by sending probes on =
load-generating and separate connections. So, that should allow to =
calibrate things to some extend.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Now, =
with these discussion I am wondering about one thing:</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Why would one want to calibrate out the end-host =
latency from the measurement? Sure, when trying to debug things to =
identify the sources of bufferbloat. But for debugging the method =
described in the draft is a very poor tool. When I'm debugging =
bufferbloat, I resort back to traceroute, tcptraceroute, ping, iperf, =
curl,...</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>So, I don't fully =
understand why one would want to calibrate the end-host latency away =
from the measurement. Because, at the end that is what the end-users are =
experiencing and so I want to measure it entirely end-to-end. =
Responsiveness really is a metric that is focused on the end-user and =
not the network in isolation.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Christoph</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in =
0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">Does that make sense?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">Thanks,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">Christoph<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">more stuff =
to consider,<br class=3D"">Al<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-caps: normal; =
text-align: start; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-spacing: 0px;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D"">-----Original Message-----<br class=3D"">From: ippm &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ippm-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On =
Behalf Of Dave Taht<br class=3D"">Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2022 8:00 =
PM<br class=3D"">To: Christoph Paasch &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:cpaasch=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">cpaasch=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">Cc: =
Marcus Ihlar &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:marcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">marcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;; IETF =
IPPM WG<br class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ippm@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for =
draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Tue, =
Feb 15, 2022 at 4:11 PM Christoph Paasch<br class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:cpaasch=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">cpaasch=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hello Greg,<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Feb 8, 2022, at 1:10 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hi Christoph,<br class=3D"">apologies =
for the belated response and thank you for sharing interesting<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><div style=3D"margin: 0in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D"">details of you using the measurement method. I think that if =
the measurement<br class=3D"">method can not only provide the Round-trip =
Per Minute (RPM) metric but expose<br class=3D"">the network propagation =
and residential components of the round-trip delay,<br class=3D"">then =
it seems to me, the scope of the draft to be aligned with the charter =
of<br class=3D"">the IPPM WG and I'll be in favor of the WG adoption of =
the work.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D"">What do you think? What is the opinion of the authors and the =
WG?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I am assuming that with =
"residential components" you mean the server/client-<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><div style=3D"margin: 0in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D"">side contribution to the measured latency, right?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">In that case, yes the =
method does allow to separate these, as latency-probes<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><div style=3D"margin: 0in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D"">are sent on both the load-generating connections and on =
separate connections.<br class=3D"">The difference between the two =
represents the "server-side contribution" to<br class=3D"">the =
latency.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I remember vividly how "neat" it =
seemed that QUIC had adopted the idea<br class=3D"">of an inband "ping" =
in version Q018 in 2012 (or so).<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/docs.google.com/document/d/1WJv=
yZflAO2pq77" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://docs.google.com/document/d/=
1WJvyZflAO2pq77</a><br =
class=3D"">yOLbp9NsGjC1CHetAXV8I0fQe-B_U/edit__;!!BhdT!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-=
<br class=3D"">4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPeUiZuj5$<br =
class=3D"">Q018: Added a PING frame<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">What I =
don't remember or understand at the moment is I'm under the<br =
class=3D"">impression that's in the SSL layer as of http2.0? There a =
good ref?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">I think what would be =
helpful would be a section in the draft that explains<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><div style=3D"margin: 0in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D"">the different sources of latency (network, server, client) =
and how they affect<br class=3D"">the final RPM-number and how one can =
separate out these two components. It is<br class=3D"">also important to =
understand that the results are highly implementation-<br =
class=3D"">dependent. And explaining that in this section should help, I =
believe.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Would that be in line with what you are =
looking for?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thanks,<br =
class=3D"">Christoph<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Regards,<br class=3D"">Greg<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On =
Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 4:42 PM Christoph Paasch &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">cpaasch@apple.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hello Greg,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On =
Jan 6, 2022, at 3:00 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hi Christoph,<br class=3D"">a happy =
and healthy New Year to you and All!<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Happy New Year to you as well!<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Thank you for your kind consideration of my notes and =
detailed responses.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">Please find my follow-up notes in-line =
below under the GIM&gt;&gt; tag.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thanks for your replies. Please =
see inline:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 10:52 AM =
Christoph Paasch &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cpaasch@apple.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">cpaasch@apple.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hello Greg,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">thanks =
for your comments. Please see inline:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On =
Dec 22, 2021, at 11:43 PM, Greg Mirsky &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Dear Marcus, Authors, et al,<br =
class=3D"">apologies for the belated response.<br class=3D"">I've read =
the draft and have some comments to share with you:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">as I understand it, the proposed new responsiveness metric is =
viewed as<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">the single indicator of a bufferbloat =
condition in a network. As I recall, the<br class=3D"">discussion at =
Measuring Network Quality for End-Users workshop and on the<br =
class=3D"">mailing list indicated, that there=E2=80=99s no consensus on =
what behaviors, symptoms<br class=3D"">can reliably signal the =
bufferbloat.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">We are not trying for this responsiveness =
metric to be "the single<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">indicator of bufferbloat". Bufferbloat =
can be measured in many different<br class=3D"">number of ways. And each =
of these will produce a correct, but a different<br class=3D"">result. =
Thus, "bufferbloat" is whatever the methodology tries to detect.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Let me give an example =
of two methodologies that are both correct but both<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">will produce entirely different =
numbers :<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">If we would decide to generate the load by =
flooding the network with UDP<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">traffic from a specific 4-tuple and =
measure latency with parallel ICMP pings.<br class=3D"">Then, on a =
over-buffered FIFO queue we would measure huge latencies (thus<br =
class=3D"">correctly expose bufferbloat), while on a FQ-codel queue we =
would not measure<br class=3D"">any bufferbloat.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">If on the other hand, =
the load-generating traffic is changing the source-<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">port for every single UDP-packet, then =
in both the FIFO-queue and the FQ-codel<br class=3D"">queue we will =
measure huge amounts of bufferbloat.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thus, these two methods both produced correct =
results but with hugely<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">different numbers in the FQ-codel =
case. [1]<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Now, while both methods measure some variant =
of bufferbloat, they both<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">don't measure a realistic usage of the =
network.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for the insights. It =
seems to me that what the method can<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">demonstrate is rather the level of =
efficiency of the AQM in the network for a<br class=3D"">particular =
class of applications.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Yes, that is a good =
description. It is for a "particular class of<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">applications" and we are trying to =
make this class of applications<br class=3D"">representative of a =
"typical user-scenario". (admittedly, we can debate<br class=3D"">forever =
on what kind of applications are representative and I would love to<br =
class=3D"">have that debate :-)).<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On the point of "efficiency of the AQM". I =
would go even further that it's<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">not only AQM but also the client- and =
server-side implementations of these<br class=3D"">applications (as =
noted further below).<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">That is why the "Responsiveness =
under working conditions" tries to clearly<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">specify how the load is generated and =
how the latency is being measured. And<br class=3D"">it does not measure =
"bufferbloat" but it measures "responsiveness under<br class=3D"">working =
conditions" based on the methodology that is being used (using HTTP/2<br =
class=3D"">or HTTP/3, multiple flows, ...). It does expose bufferbloat =
which can happen<br class=3D"">in the network. It also exposes certain =
server-side behaviors that can cause<br class=3D"">(huge amounts of) =
additional latency - those behaviors are typically not<br =
class=3D"">called "bufferbloat".<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for pointing out that =
the result of the RTT measurement has<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">two contributing factors - network and =
server.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Yes, servers contribute as do =
the client-side implementations. It's all<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">three (client, network, server) that =
need to work "correctly" to achieve good<br class=3D"">responsiveness. =
Btw., as we are now gathering more experience with our<br =
class=3D"">methodology in different environments we find that the =
biggest portions of<br class=3D"">latency actually come from the =
server-side. We see several seconds of latency<br class=3D"">introduced =
by the HTTP/2 and TCP implementations.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">It seems worth enhancing the method to =
localize each contribution and<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">measure them separately.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">With the =
latency measuring probes being sent on load-bearing connections<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">and separate connections and with the =
separate connections serving to measure<br class=3D"">DNS/TCP/... =
individually, the different data-points actually allow to localize<br =
class=3D"">to some extend.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">However, I would be reluctant to dive too deep =
into localization/trouble-<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">shooting/debugging of networks as part =
of this I-D. As this opens a whole new<br class=3D"">can of worms. We =
could then start thinking about sending latency-probes while<br =
class=3D"">playing with the IP TTL to find which router is introducing =
the latency,...<br class=3D"">It's an entirely different research-topic =
IMO :-) Dave Taht was thinking of<br class=3D"">starting something along =
these lines<br class=3D"">(<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/dtaht/wtbb__;!!BhdT!=
yrleDfru-" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/dtaht/wtbb__;!!B=
hdT!yrleDfru-</a><br =
class=3D"">45Lar4Qe5-4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPRghwEjg$ ).<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D"">It seems that it would be reasonable to first define what is =
being<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">measured, characterized by the =
responsiveness metric. Having a document that<br class=3D"">discusses =
and defines the bufferbloat would be great.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">I agree that there is a =
lack of definition for what "bufferbloat" really<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">is.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">The way we look at "responsiveness under =
working conditions" is that it<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">measures the latency in conditions =
that may realistically happen in worst-case<br class=3D"">scenarios with =
end-users/implementations that are non-malicious (non-malicious<br =
class=3D"">to exclude the UDP-flooding scenario).<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thus, I assume we =
should make a better job at explaining this. The lack of<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">a formal definition of "bufferbloat" =
doesn't help and thus we are indeed using<br class=3D"">this term a bit =
freely in the current draft. We will improve the Introduction<br =
class=3D"">to better set the stage<br class=3D"">(<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/network-quality/draf=
t-cpaasch-" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/network-quality/=
draft-cpaasch-</a><br =
class=3D"">ippm-responsiveness/issues/31__;!!BhdT!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-<br =
class=3D"">4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPU0pYBOv$ ).<br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">It seems like in the =
foundation of the methodology described in the draft<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">lies the assumption that without =
adding new flows the available bandwidth is<br class=3D"">constant, does =
not change. While that is mostly the case, there are<br =
class=3D"">technologies that behave differently and may change bandwidth =
because of the<br class=3D"">outside conditions. Some of these behaviors =
of links with variable discrete<br class=3D"">bandwidth are discussed =
in, for example, RFC 8330 and RFC 8625.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">I'm not sure I entirely understand your =
comment. But let me explain why we<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">are gradually adding new flows:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">1. TCP-implementations =
have usually a fixed limit for the upper bound of<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">the receive window. In some networks =
that upper bound is lower than the BDP of<br class=3D"">the network. =
Thus, the only way to reach full capacity is by having multiple<br =
class=3D"">flows.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D"">2. Having multiple connections allows to quicker achieve full =
capacity in<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">high-RTT networks and thus speeds up =
the test-duration.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D"">3. In some networks with "random" packet-loss, =
congestion-control may come<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">in the way of achieving full capacity. =
Again, multiple flows will work around<br class=3D"">that.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">GIM&gt;&gt; I might =
have asked several questions at once. Let me clarify what I<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">am looking for:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">As I understand the =
method of creating the "working conditions in a<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">network" is based on certain =
assumptions. First, seems is that the bandwidth<br class=3D"">is =
symmetrical between the measurement points. Second, that the =
bandwidth<br class=3D"">doesn't change for the duration of the =
measurement session. AFAIK, in the<br class=3D"">access networks, both =
are not necessarily always the case.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">We don't have the assumption that bandwidth is =
symmetrical (assuming, you<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">mean uplink/downlink symmetry - please =
clarify otherwise).<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">The load-generating algorithm runs =
independently for uplink and downlink<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">traffic. And it is perfectly fine when =
both have huge asymmetry.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Regarding the stability of the =
bandwidth:<br class=3D"">You are making a good point indeed that we =
assume that the bandwidth is to<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">some extend stable while ramping up =
the flows to "working conditions".<br class=3D"">Admittedly that =
assumption does not always hold, and that is one of the<br =
class=3D"">reasons why we try hard for the test to not take too long.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">I'm not sure how we could adjust the =
algorithm for varying bandwidth<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">without introducing too much =
complexity. I'm open for suggestions :-)<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On the other hand, I might have missed how the =
method of creating the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">"working conditions" guarantees a =
symmetrical load between the measurement<br class=3D"">points.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">As mentioned above, we =
don't assume a symmetrical load. Can you show us<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">where in the draft we give that =
impression, so we can fix that?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Then, I find the motivation not to use time =
units to express the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">responsiveness metric not =
convincing:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;"Latency" is a poor measure of =
responsiveness, since it can be hard<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;for the =
general public to understand. &nbsp;The units are unfamiliar<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;("what is a millisecond?") and counterintuitive =
("100 msec - that<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;sounds good - it's only a =
tenth of a second!").<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Can =
you expand on what exactly is not convincing to you? Do you think =
that<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">people will mis-understand the metric =
or that milli-seconds is the right way<br class=3D"">to communicate =
responsiveness to the general public?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">GIM&gt;&gt; Let me try. We know packet delay =
requirements for AR, VR<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">applications. I believe that gamers =
are familiar with these numbers too. The<br class=3D"">same is likely =
the case for the industrial automation use cases served, for<br =
class=3D"">example, by Deterministic Networking.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I can =
understand that for a technical audience, milli-seconds is easy and<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">familiar. A non-technical audience =
might be more open to accepting a new<br class=3D"">"higher-is-better" =
metric. Responsiveness is something new and abstract so,<br =
class=3D"">it's kind of natural that it comes with a new unit.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">But I fully recognize =
that that's a controversial topic and can be<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">discussed at length :)<br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Cheers,<br=
 class=3D"">Christoph<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thanks a lot,<br =
class=3D"">Christoph<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">[1] And there are many =
networks that prioritize ICMP pings, thus we could<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">observe even more different results =
based on what protocol is used to measure<br class=3D"">the latency.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Mon, =
Dec 6, 2021 at 7:53 AM Marcus Ihlar<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:marcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">marcus.ihlar=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hi IPPM,<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">This email starts an adoption call for =
draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blo=
ckquote><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">"Responsiveness under =
Working Conditions=E2=80=9D. This document specifies the =E2=80=9CRPM<br =
class=3D"">Test=E2=80=9D for measuring user experience when the network =
is fully loaded. The<br class=3D"">intended status of the document is =
Experimental.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-=
" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr=
aft-</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blo=
ckquote><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D"">cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/__;!!BhdT!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-<br =
class=3D"">4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPU3zpKI3$<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/d=
raft-" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/ht=
ml/draft-</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blo=
ckquote><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D"">cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-01__;!!BhdT!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-<br =
class=3D"">4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPf9N-E8h$<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">This adoption call will last until Monday, December 20. =
Please review the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blo=
ckquote><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D"">document, and reply to =
this email thread to indicate if you think IPPM should<br class=3D"">adopt=
 this document.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">BR,<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Marcus<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">ippm mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">ippm@ietf.org</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></block=
quote><div style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i=
ppm__;!!Bhd" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin=
fo/ippm__;!!Bhd</a><br =
class=3D"">T!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPTFWzNHi$=
<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">ippm mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">ippm@ietf.org</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i=
ppm__;!!Bhd" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin=
fo/ippm__;!!Bhd</a><br =
class=3D"">T!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPTFWzNHi$=
<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Menlo-Regular, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, =
serif;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">ippm mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">ippm@ietf.org</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></blockquote><div style=3D"margin: 0in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Menlo-Regular, serif;" =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i=
ppm__;!!Bhd" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin=
fo/ippm__;!!Bhd</a><br =
class=3D"">T!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPTFWzNHi$=
<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">--<br =
class=3D"">I tried to build a better future, a few times:<br class=3D""><a=
 =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/wayforward.archive.org/?site=3D=
https*3A*2F*2" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://wayforward.archive.org/?sit=
e=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2</a><br =
class=3D"">Fwww.icei.org__;JSUl!!BhdT!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-<br =
class=3D"">4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPXLNE64R$<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">ippm mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:ippm@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">ippm@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i=
ppm__;!!Bhd" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin=
fo/ippm__;!!Bhd</a><br =
class=3D"">T!yrleDfru-45Lar4Qe5-4bWSRTYtJSdvp8oh643W10p69kHM1mzsvPTFWzNHi$=
<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><=
br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Marcus Ihlar <marcus.ihlar@ericsson.com>
To: "ippm@ietf.org" <ippm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness
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Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 15:07:21 +0000
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness
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Hi,

We've seen good discussion and good support for taking on this work. Thanks=
 to everyone who has contributed.

Several concerns have been raised around how to separate  the various compo=
nents that contribute to the latency metric.

Based on this we would declare that there is working group consensus for ad=
opting this document and that the working group must focus on describing th=
e various sources of latency involved in this metric and how those latency =
components can be separated.



This email ends the adoption call.



BR

Marcus









From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Marcus Ihlar
Sent: den 6 december 2021 16:53
To: ippm@ietf.org
Subject: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness



Hi IPPM,



This email starts an adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness, "=
Responsiveness under Working Conditions". This document specifies the "RPM =
Test" for measuring user experience when the network is fully loaded. The i=
ntended status of the document is Experimental.



https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness-01



This adoption call will last until Monday, December 20. Please review the d=
ocument, and reply to this email thread to indicate if you think IPPM shoul=
d adopt this document.



BR,

Marcus




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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We&#8217;ve seen good discussion and good support fo=
r taking on this work. Thanks to everyone who has contributed.<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Several concerns have been raised around how to sepa=
rate&nbsp; the various components that contribute to the latency metric.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Based on this we would declare that there is working=
 group consensus for adopting this document and that the working group must=
 focus on describing the various sources of latency involved in this metric=
 and how those latency components
 can be separated.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This email ends the adoption call.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">BR<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Marcus<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> ippm &lt;ippm-bounces@ietf.org&gt; <b>O=
n Behalf Of </b>
Marcus Ihlar<br>
<b>Sent:</b> den 6 december 2021 16:53<br>
<b>To:</b> ippm@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness<=
o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Hi IPPM=
,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">This em=
ail starts an adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness, &quot;Re=
sponsiveness under Working Conditions&#8221;. This document specifies the &=
#8220;RPM Test&#8221; for measuring user experience when the
 network is fully loaded. The intended status of the document is Experiment=
al. &nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><a href=
=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/">ht=
tps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness/</a><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><a href=
=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness=
-01">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsivenes=
s-01</a></span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">This ad=
option call will last until
<b>Monday, December 20</b>. Please review the document, and reply to this e=
mail thread to indicate if you think IPPM should adopt this document.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">BR,<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Marcus =
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_AM0PR07MB413110ADEB9743F426CE8EABE23D9AM0PR07MB4131eurp_--


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Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-protocol-01.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Test Protocol for One-way IP Capacity Measurement
        Authors         : Len Ciavattone
                          Al Morton
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-protocol-01.txt
	Pages           : 32
	Date            : 2022-02-25

Abstract:
   This memo addresses the problem of protocol support for measuring
   Network Capacity metrics in RFC 9097, where the method deploys a
   feedback channel from the receiver to control the sender's
   transmission rate in near-real-time.  This memo defines a simple
   protocol to perform the RFC 9097 (and other) measurements.

   See Section 10: The authors seek feedback to determine what
   additional features will be necessary for an IETF Standards Track
   Protocol, beyond what is present in the running code available now.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-protocol/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-protocol-01

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-protocol-01


Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts



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From: "MORTON JR., AL" <acmorton@att.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/b9_1PDUP83-Ln5t1YRzRjlfFhKw>
Subject: Re: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-protocol-01.txt
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Hi IPPM,

The authors have implemented/proposed some user-requested features in this =
update of the draft, including:

+ Implementation of Randomized payload option. Performance suggests very li=
mited compressibility.
+ Server can set a BW limit for mission-control; Client would supply a max =
BW for its specific testing to help the server manage tests within its limi=
t.
+ Optional Start rate for load-adjustment algorithm (fixed-rate option rema=
ins).
+ Backward compatibility: Servers can test with both protocol version 8 and=
 version 9.

Delay and delay variation measurements during Capacity tests remain one of =
the protocol's strengths (loss too).

One way to evaluate the protocol is to try-out the running code [0].

We hope you'll make some time for review and comments leading-up to IETF-11=
3.

Al and Len

[0] https://github.com/BroadbandForum/obudpst


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Sent: Friday, February 25, 2022 2:13 PM
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: ippm@ietf.org
> Subject: [ippm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-protocol-01.txt
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Measurement WG of the IET=
F.
>=20
>         Title           : Test Protocol for One-way IP Capacity Measureme=
nt
>         Authors         : Len Ciavattone
>                           Al Morton
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-ippm-capacity-protocol-01.txt
> 	Pages           : 32
> 	Date            : 2022-02-25
>=20
> Abstract:
>    This memo addresses the problem of protocol support for measuring
>    Network Capacity metrics in RFC 9097, where the method deploys a
>    feedback channel from the receiver to control the sender's
>    transmission rate in near-real-time.  This memo defines a simple
>    protocol to perform the RFC 9097 (and other) measurements.
>=20
>    See Section 10: The authors seek feedback to determine what
>    additional features will be necessary for an IETF Standards Track
>    Protocol, beyond what is present in the running code available now.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-i=
ppm-
> capacity-protocol/__;!!BhdT!hU7TX2-
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_BSPk
> A$
>=20
> There is also an htmlized version available at:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-i=
etf-
> ippm-capacity-protocol-01__;!!BhdT!hU7TX2-
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_rj1f
> w$
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-iet=
f-ippm-
> capacity-protocol-01__;!!BhdT!hU7TX2-
> _MzrINiXgiMqcLWAvfe12cv2YVrKPpG8DWj_GZpVwifCpy7rCx28NK1EqCsK_Bk3Gu0hrpj6k=
s1pSK
> A$
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> Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-d=
rafts
>=20
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> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
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5dGdH
> Q$


From nobody Fri Feb 25 17:32:55 2022
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From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" <agenda@ietf.org>
To: <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, <tpauly@apple.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/a-ROKeFNLwxDV2ruC8RRi52hNd8>
Subject: [ippm] ippm - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 113
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Dear Tommy Pauly,

The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
Below is the scheduled session information followed by
the original request. 


    ippm Session 1 (2:00 requested)
    Monday, 21 March 2022, Morning Session I 1000-1200
    Room Name: Park Suite 3 size: 145
    ---------------------------------------------


iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/113/sessions/ippm.ics

Request Information:


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: IP Performance Measurement
Area Name: Transport Area
Session Requester: Tommy Pauly


Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s): 
Number of Attendees: 40
Conflicts to Avoid: 

       


People who must be present:
  Alfred Channon Morton
  Frank Brockners
  Greg Mirsky
  Marcus Ihlar
  Martin Duke
  Tommy Pauly

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  
---------------------------------------------------------



From nobody Sun Feb 27 11:59:18 2022
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From: "MORTON JR., AL" <acmorton@att.com>
To: Christoph Paasch <cpaasch@apple.com>
CC: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>, Marcus Ihlar <marcus.ihlar@ericsson.com>,  IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/E4In4LN9HhsGu0HhkozLoPp2V3s>
Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-cpaasch-ippm-responsiveness
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From: Giuseppe Fioccola <giuseppe.fioccola@huawei.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "draft-zhou-ippm-enhanced-alternate-marking@ietf.org" <draft-zhou-ippm-enhanced-alternate-marking@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: A review of draft-zhou-ippm-enhanced-alternate-marking-08
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Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 10:30:56 +0000
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Subject: Re: [ippm] A review of draft-zhou-ippm-enhanced-alternate-marking-08
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Dear Adrian, All,
Please note that we just submitted a new version of the draft to address yo=
ur comments.

Feedback and comments are always welcome.

Regards,

Giuseppe


-----Original Message-----
From: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>=20
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 4:14 PM
To: Giuseppe Fioccola <giuseppe.fioccola@huawei.com>; draft-zhou-ippm-enhan=
ced-alternate-marking@ietf.org
Cc: 'IETF IPPM WG' <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: A review of draft-zhou-ippm-enhanced-alternate-marking-08

Thanks Giuseppe,

All looks good.

Adrian

-----Original Message-----
From: Giuseppe Fioccola <giuseppe.fioccola@huawei.com>
Sent: 14 February 2022 15:01
To: adrian@olddog.co.uk; draft-zhou-ippm-enhanced-alternate-marking@ietf.or=
g
Cc: 'IETF IPPM WG' <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: A review of draft-zhou-ippm-enhanced-alternate-marking-08

Hi Adrian,
Thanks a lot for your thorough revision.=20
It will help to improve the document and we plan to publish the new revisio=
n soon.

Please find my responses inline as [GF].

Best Regards,

Giuseppe

-----Original Message-----
From: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2022 2:54 PM
To: draft-zhou-ippm-enhanced-alternate-marking@ietf.org
Cc: 'IETF IPPM WG' <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: A review of draft-zhou-ippm-enhanced-alternate-marking-08

Hi,

I've just been looking at draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-alt-mark, so I thought I wou=
ld also have a look at this draft.

Here are a few comments that the authors may find helpful.

Best,
Adrian

=3D=3D=3D

Abstract

1. Don't use references in the Abstract
2. It would be really nice to say which enhanced capabilities and
   functions are provided and allowed.
3. s/the enhanced/enhanced/

[GF]: Sure, I will apply these changes and specify what are the enhanced ca=
pabilities, for example thicker packet loss measurements and more dense del=
ay measurements with no limitation for the number of concurrent flows under=
 monitoring

---

Requirements language

1. You should move this down into section 1.1 2. You need to use the up-to-=
date boilerplate

[GF]: Yes, we will do.

---

Section 1

1. s/an hybrid/a hybrid/
2. s/IPv6 AltMark Option/The IPv6 AltMark Option/ 3. s/to the IPv6 protocol=
/to IPv6/ 4. s/defines Extension/defines an Extension/ 5. s/encode Alternat=
e/encode the Alternate/ 6. s/both Hop-by-Hop/both the Hop-by-Hop/ 7.
s/and Destination/and the Destination/ 8. s/carried as SRH TLV/carried as a=
 TLV in the Segment Routing Header/

[GF]: We will include these changes.

9. You have...
   While the AltMark Option implements the basic alternate marking
   method, this document defines the extended data fields for the
   AltMark Option and provides the enhanced capabilities.
   ...I'm not clear, but I think, s/the extended/extended/ and
   s/the enhanced/enhanced/
   But I think that the Introduction (in more detail than the Abstract)=20
   needs to give clues about those capabilities.

[GF]: We will apply the suggested changes. I agree that more detailed infor=
mation about the enhanced capabilities can be included in the Introduction.
---

Section 2

1. s/the next figure/Figure 1/
2. s/An 8 bits/An 8-bit/

[GF]: We will include these changes.

3. It is not clear from the text that two bits of the former Reserved
   field remain reserved, are shown as R in the figure, and MUST continue
   to be set to zero on transmission and ignored on receipt.

[GF]: We will clarify this point.

4. s/Fig. 1:/Figure 1:/   (same for all the figures)

[GF]: Yes.

5. Figure 1 is slightly confusing as Section 3.1 of draft-ietf-6man-ipv6
   -alt-mark shows two additional fields (Option Type and Opt Data Len) 8.
Do you really need 8 bits for the NextHeader field. You have reserved=20
   0-8 for special purposes, and used just one other value (9). At the=20
   same time you have removed 8 out of the 10 bits available for future
   extensions. Furthermore, 8 values looks like a lot of experimentation
   space. Why not...
   - Keep zero as reserved (for backward compatibility - by the way, you=20
     should say in the text why zero is reserved)
   - Reduce experimentation to the values 1, 2, 3
   - Assign just 4 bits for "NextHeader"

[GF]: This is a good suggestion. It looks reasonable to reduce the number o=
f bits for NextHeader.

7. I really feel that you are going to need a registry for the values of
   the NextHeader field.
8. s/The following figure/Figure 2/

[GF]: We will include these changes.

9. You have ...
   o  Flag - A 4 bits flag to indicate the special purpose usage.
   ...It's OK, but could you add "(see below)" to save me from panic.

[GF]: Sure, good suggestion.

10. s/A 4 bits flag/A 4-bit flag/
11. For Len ("It indicates the length of extension headers.") you need
   to say what is counted and in what units. Do you start at FlowMonID
   Ext or after Padding? Do you count in octets or double words?
12. s/A 16 bits Bitmap/A 16-bit bitmap/

[GF]: We will do.

13. To be clear, is the padding there specifically as padding, or is a=20
    reserved field? What does "when not being used" mean? Looking later
    I think that you only have padding present sometimes, so it is=20
    genuinely padding, but the text does not explain when it is there and
    when it isn't.

[GF]: We can clarify that padding is a variable length field as further spe=
cify later in the document.

14. s/requested to set/requested to be set/ 15. Similarly for MetaInfo, cou=
ld you add "(see below)"?
16. s/The Flag is defined as/The Flag is defined in Figure 3 as/ 17. OLD
    others - Reserved.
    NEW
    others (shown as R) - Reserved. MUST be set to zero and ignored on
    receipt.
    END
18. s/as a bit map as follows:/in Figure 4 as a bit map as follows:/=20

[GF]: We will apply these changes.

19. I read "stands for the second part" several times before I realised
    you mean "stands of the number of seconds in the timestamp" and not
    "the second part of the timestamp"!

[GF]: We will revise the text.

20. I see that various pieces of information are present if a particular
    bit in the bitmap is set. But you don't talk about whether that=20
    information must be ordered according to the order of the bits (of
    course it must be).

[GF]: Yes, we will clarify this point.

21. Figure 6 shows Control as a 6-bit field and Period as a 10-bit=20
    field. If this is an error, fix the figure. If it is intentional
    please make it clear in the text.

[GF]: We will further clarify this part.

22. How are the various fields of the control information extension=20
    used? I feel you may be missing some reference pointers.
23. What is the sequence number used for?

[GF]: We will add further details here.

---

Section 3.

   In particular the fundamental
   security requirement is that Alternate Marking MUST be applied in a
   specific limited domain, as also mentioned in [RFC8799].

It's subtle, but I think you don't mean that it MUST be applied in a specif=
ic limited domain. Possibly "it MUST only be applied".

[GF]: Yes, we will revise this section as well.



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From: "nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com" <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com>
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Subject: [ippm] Fw: New Version Notification for draft-elkins-ippm-encrypted-pdmv2-02.txt
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------=_Part_3398560_552743340.1646055329143
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello IPPM,
We have posted a new version of our draft for Encrypted PDMv2.=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
We have also started an implementation of a sample registration / data flow=
.=C2=A0 We discuss the sample implementation in Appendix 2.=C2=A0
There will be a public side meeting in Vienna in the=C2=A0Green Room 1 - Mo=
nday 8:30am - 9:30am (before the IPPM meeting).=C2=A0 =C2=A0
Here is a text representation of the relevant portion of a sample PDMv2 reg=
istration packet captured via Wireshark.

PDM Registration Protocol=C2=A0 =C2=A0 PDM Version: 2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Length: =
54=C2=A0 =C2=A0 HPKE Version: 0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Record Type: 2=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Se=
quence Number: 0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sender Type: 1=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authority Level: =
1=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Command: 0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Req / Resp: 1=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Transacti=
on ID: 0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Op Code: 1=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Reserved: 0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 KEM =
ID: 9008303061418796=C2=A0 =C2=A0 KDF ID: 5207154935825719688=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
KDF ID: 4716415986840602930=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Encapsulated Secret: 67a5a7395d85d=
ecc2a978921d209
We will show the sample flow and show running code in the side meeting.=C2=
=A0 Look forward to comments!
Thanks,

Nalini Elkins
CEO and Founder
Inside Products, Inc.
www.insidethestack.com
(831) 659-8360=20

   ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: internet-drafts@ietf.org <internet-d=
rafts@ietf.org>To: mackermann@bcbsm.com <mackermann@bcbsm.com>; Adnan Rashi=
d <adnan.rashid@unifi.it>; Ameya Deshpande <ameyanrd@gmail.com>; Michael Ac=
kermann <mackermann@bcbsm.com>; Nalini Elkins <nalini.elkins@insidethestack=
.com>; Tommaso Pecorella <tommaso.pecorella@unifi.it>Sent: Monday, February=
 28, 2022, 05:18:26 AM PSTSubject: New Version Notification for draft-elkin=
s-ippm-encrypted-pdmv2-02.txt
=20
A new version of I-D, draft-elkins-ippm-encrypted-pdmv2-02.txt
has been successfully submitted by Nalini Elkins and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 draft-elkins-ippm-encrypted-pdmv=
2
Revision:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 02
Title:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IPv6 Performance and Diagnostic=
 Metrics Version 2 (PDMv2) Destination Option
Document date:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2022-02-25
Group:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Individual Submission
Pages:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 17
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/archive/=
id/draft-elkins-ippm-encrypted-pdmv2-02.txt
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-e=
lkins-ippm-encrypted-pdmv2/
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-e=
lkins-ippm-encrypted-pdmv2
Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=
=3Ddraft-elkins-ippm-encrypted-pdmv2-02

Abstract:
=C2=A0 RFC8250 describes an optional Destination Option (DO) header embedde=
d
=C2=A0 in each packet to provide sequence numbers and timing information as
=C2=A0 a basis for measurements.=C2=A0 As this data is sent in clear- text,=
 this
=C2=A0 may create an opportunity for malicious actors to get information fo=
r
=C2=A0 subsequent attacks.=C2=A0 This document defines PDMv2 which has a
=C2=A0 lightweight handshake (registration procedure) and encryption to
=C2=A0 secure this data.=C2=A0 Additional performance metrics which may be =
of use
=C2=A0 are also defined.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=20


The IETF Secretariat


 =20
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydp725a610fyahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px=
;"><div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Hello IPPM,</div><div dir=3D=
"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false=
">We have posted a new version of our draft for Encrypted PDMv2.&nbsp; &nbs=
p;We have also started an implementation of a sample registration / data fl=
ow.&nbsp; We discuss the sample implementation in Appendix 2.&nbsp;</div><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=
=3D"false">There will be a <a href=3D"https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeti=
ng/wiki/113sidemeetings" class=3D"enhancr_card_6934823465">public side meet=
ing</a> in Vienna in the&nbsp;<span>Green Room 1 - Monday 8:30am - 9:30am (=
before the IPPM meeting).&nbsp; &nbsp;</span></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-se=
tdir=3D"false"><span><br></span></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false=
"><span><span><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica Ne=
ue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">Here is a text represen=
tation of the relevant portion of a sample PDMv2 registration packet captur=
ed via Wireshark.</span></span><br></span></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdi=
r=3D"false"><span><span><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: He=
lvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></span></=
span></span></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><div><div>PDM Regi=
stration Protocol</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; PDM Version: 2</div><div>&nbsp; &=
nbsp; Length: 54</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; HPKE Version: 0</div><div>&nbsp; &=
nbsp; Record Type: 2</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; Sequence Number: 0</div><div>&=
nbsp; &nbsp; Sender Type: 1</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; Authority Level: 1</div=
><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; Command: 0</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; Req / Resp: 1</div><=
div>&nbsp; &nbsp; Transaction ID: 0</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; Op Code: 1</div=
><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; Reserved: 0</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; KEM ID: 90083030614=
18796</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; KDF ID: 5207154935825719688</div><div>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; KDF ID: 4716415986840602930</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; Encapsulated Sec=
ret: 67a5a7395d85decc2a978921d209</div><div><br></div></div>We will show th=
e sample flow and show running code in the side meeting.&nbsp; Look forward=
 to comments!</div><div><br></div><div class=3D"ydp725a610fsignature">Thank=
s,<br><br>Nalini Elkins<br>CEO and Founder<br>Inside Products, Inc.<br>www.=
insidethestack.com<br>(831) 659-8360</div></div>
        <div><br></div><div><br></div>
       =20
        </div><div id=3D"ydpf58c714eyahoo_quoted_6182212226" class=3D"ydpf5=
8c714eyahoo_quoted">
            <div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
                <div>----- Forwarded Message -----</div>
                <div><b>From:</b> internet-drafts@ietf.org &lt;internet-dra=
fts@ietf.org&gt;</div><div><b>To:</b> mackermann@bcbsm.com &lt;mackermann@b=
cbsm.com&gt;; Adnan Rashid &lt;adnan.rashid@unifi.it&gt;; Ameya Deshpande &=
lt;ameyanrd@gmail.com&gt;; Michael Ackermann &lt;mackermann@bcbsm.com&gt;; =
Nalini Elkins &lt;nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com&gt;; Tommaso Pecorella &=
lt;tommaso.pecorella@unifi.it&gt;</div><div><b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 2=
8, 2022, 05:18:26 AM PST</div><div><b>Subject:</b> New Version Notification=
 for draft-elkins-ippm-encrypted-pdmv2-02.txt</div><div><br></div>
                <div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">A new vers=
ion of I-D, draft-elkins-ippm-encrypted-pdmv2-02.txt<br></div><div dir=3D"l=
tr">has been successfully submitted by Nalini Elkins and posted to the<br><=
/div><div dir=3D"ltr">IETF repository.<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div>=
<div dir=3D"ltr">Name:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; draft-elkins-ip=
pm-encrypted-pdmv2<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Revision:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 02=
<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Title:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IPv6=
 Performance and Diagnostic Metrics Version 2 (PDMv2) Destination Option<br=
></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Document date:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2022-02-25<br></di=
v><div dir=3D"ltr">Group:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Individual S=
ubmission<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Pages:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; 17<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">URL:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-elkins-ippm-encrypted=
-pdmv2-02.txt" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/arch=
ive/id/draft-elkins-ippm-encrypted-pdmv2-02.txt</a><br></div><div dir=3D"lt=
r">Status:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;  <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.=
org/doc/draft-elkins-ippm-encrypted-pdmv2/" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elkins-ippm-encrypted-pdmv2/</a>=
<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Htmlized:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;  <a href=3D"https:=
//datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-elkins-ippm-encrypted-pdmv2" rel=3D"n=
ofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-elki=
ns-ippm-encrypted-pdmv2</a><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Diff:&nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;  <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-el=
kins-ippm-encrypted-pdmv2-02" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://ww=
w.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-elkins-ippm-encrypted-pdmv2-02</a><br></div=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Abstract:<br></div><div dir=3D=
"ltr">&nbsp;  RFC8250 describes an optional Destination Option (DO) header =
embedded<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">&nbsp;  in each packet to provide sequen=
ce numbers and timing information as<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">&nbsp;  a ba=
sis for measurements.&nbsp; As this data is sent in clear- text, this<br></=
div><div dir=3D"ltr">&nbsp;  may create an opportunity for malicious actors=
 to get information for<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">&nbsp;  subsequent attack=
s.&nbsp; This document defines PDMv2 which has a<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">=
&nbsp;  lightweight handshake (registration procedure) and encryption to<br=
></div><div dir=3D"ltr">&nbsp;  secure this data.&nbsp; Additional performa=
nce metrics which may be of use<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">&nbsp;  are also =
defined.<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">&nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">The IETF Secretariat=
<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div></div>
            </div>
        </div></body></html>
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