Subject: RE: FCIP & this list

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:49:56 -0400

Ralph,

> On 17 August 2001, David Black wrote:
> 
> > While I'm at it, it appears to me that the FCIP authors
> > are reverting to the unfortunate habit of holding technical
> > discussions off-line and not sharing them with the list.
> 
> First, the FCIP authors are posting their works to this
> reflector.  Otherwise, there would have been nothing
> to complain about vis-a-vis the content of the FCIP
> draft on 17 August.

Unfortunately, posting the "works" is not enough.  The rationale
behind the design decisions needs to be visible and open to
discussion on the list.  The fact that the FCIP authors have
discussed an issue offline will not be sufficient to resolve
a related WG Last Call objection on the list - to oversimplify
things slightly, the choice is between doing this right and
doing it over.

> Second, this reflector is clearly the ALL iSCSI ALL THE
> TIME reflector.  In the last 24 hours, no fewer than two
> new postings to this reflector have failed to include the
> project identifier in the subject as requested by John
> Hufferd and myself less than two weeks ago.

There's a chicken and egg problem here in that the FCIP
authors have chosen to do their technical work offline
and invite anyone who expresses any interest in FCIP into
that offline community including the conference calls.
That is a major contributing factor to the current traffic
mix on the reflector, as anyone with an FCIP issue will take
it to the conference call.  My attitude towards the conference
calls has been one of tolerating them *as long as*
the issues/discussion/results are summarized to the list,
which has not been happening.  I can't promise that the
Area Directors will be as accommodating.

> And why should people bother to prefix iSCSI postings with
> "iSCSI:" when one of the co-chairs violated the protocol
> as recently as yesterday morning with a posting titled
> "FW: I-D ACTION:draft-black-ips-iscsi-security-01.txt".

IIRC, the FCIP authors have stated an intention to follow
iSCSI's security direction, making iSCSI security drafts
(both that and draft-aboba) relevant to FCIP.  If the FCIP
authors have made an offline decision that iSCSI security
is no longer relevant to FCIP, than I apologize for the
lack of tag, but I do wish someone had paid me the courtesy
of letting me know about this change in direction ...

> The FCIP authors are trying to complete their draft
> under clearly disadvantaged circumstances.  Due diligence
> is being made to bring issues to this reflector and to
> respond to the concerns raised here.  And, I have no
> doubt that the issue raised on 17 August will be addressed
> in due course.
> 
> But it is patent nonsense to claim that the FCIP authors
> should be trying to use this reflector in the traditional
> IETF manner.  This reflector belongs to iSCSI, and to all
> practical purposes it belongs ONLY to iSCSI.

When in Rome ...
 
> FCIP (and for that matter iFCP) are barely tolerated,
> uninvited guests, or at least that is how it feels
> every time I review the directory the day's new messages.

WG Last Call will be conducted on this reflector for FCIP
and iFCP.  If the FCIP authors continue in their current
direction, those WG Last Calls could take a very long time.

Thanks,
--David

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David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
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[email-masked]       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
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---

From: Ralph Weber <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 11:03:31 -0500

David,

Your responses are most excellent.

There are minutes (well, more like discussion notes) from the 
conference call and I will ask that they be posted to this 
reflector.

The interim FCIP drafts and issues lists are maintained in PDF
format, amounting to between .2M and .5M of new material per 
week. Since this is Rome, they cannot be posted to this reflector.
It is totally impractical to translate the PDFs to text, sorry.

} WG Last Call will be conducted on this reflector for FCIP
} and iFCP.  If the FCIP authors continue in their current
} direction, those WG Last Calls could take a very long time.

There appears to be no alternative, however, I doubt that the
WG Last Calls time requirement would be shortened by more than
10% even if everything done by the FCIP authors was posted
to this reflector.  In particular, I see no reason to believe 
that the people who will raise Last Call issues will remember
earlier postings here, or bother to participate on this 
reflector prior to Last Call.  You are the sole exception 
to this perception.

Thanks for the well written, thoughtful response. I regret
that I see so few ways to be more accommodating.

Ralph...