Return-Path: X-Sieve: cmu-sieve 2.0 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ece.cmu.edu (8.11.0/8.10.2) id h3F5orr04930 for ips-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 01:50:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: ece.cmu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu using -f Received: from d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.238]) by ece.cmu.edu (8.11.0/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h3F5op304925; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 01:50:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d12relay02.de.ibm.com (d12relay02.de.ibm.com [9.165.215.23]) by d12lmsgate-5.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h3F5oRju083154; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 07:50:27 +0200 Received: from d10ml001.telaviv.ibm.com (d10ml001.telaviv.ibm.com [9.148.216.55]) by d12relay02.de.ibm.com (8.12.8/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h3F5oQhf246860; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 07:50:27 +0200 In-Reply-To: To: Robert Snively Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu, Robert Snively , "'Russell Lewis'" Subject: RE: Are there any coming iSCSI HBAs? Preferably at 100Mb speed? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.0.1 February 07, 2003 From: "Julian Satran" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 08:50:24 +0300 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D10ML001/10/M/IBM(Release 5.0.9a |January 7, 2002) at 15/04/2003 08:50:26, Serialize complete at 15/04/2003 08:50:26 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 001BB679C2256D09_=" Sender: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu Precedence: bulk This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 001BB679C2256D09_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Bob, I think that we where referring to a different environment that uses 100Mb/s for home and can connect some old or new disks to some "older PC's" and get inexpensive arrays that can be shared. Julo Robert Snively Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu 15/04/03 05:52 To Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, Robert Snively cc ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu, Russell Lewis/Tucson/IBM@IBMUS Subject RE: Are there any coming iSCSI HBAs? Preferably at 100Mb speed? Julian, The stated environment was a diskless home system with disks remote. Home system means broadband attachment at less than 1.5 Mb/sec from the home to the remote iSCSI device, so it really doesn't matter how fast your local connection is (10 Mb/s or 100 Mb/s, you only get 1.5 Mb/s max) Been there, done that, it is not so hot, unless system, swap, and program are local, meaning not diskless. Dataless with NFS works okay, because all the operational functions run locally and only file access runs remotely, and that does not require iSCSI (and in fact works better without iSCSI for comparable technology). The stated environment was legacy, which means there is no administrative tool or specialized file system to allow the use of shared remote storage. I absolutely agree that native SCSI disks will perform better than IDE disks attached via local or remote iSCSI. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com] Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 4:36 PM To: Robert Snively Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu; 'Russell Lewis' Subject: RE: Are there any coming iSCSI HBAs? Preferably at 100Mb speed? Bob, I wonder if your opinion is based on real experience or prejudice. Our measurements indicate that an inexpensive box with SCSI disks performs BETTER than an IDE (typical) desktop drive using iSCSI over a 100MB/s connection (widely available for home use) - and that includes paging (usually marginal) and all the rest. Julo Robert Snively Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu 14/04/03 18:06 To Russell Lewis/Tucson/IBM@IBMUS, ips@ece.cmu.edu cc Subject RE: Are there any coming iSCSI HBAs? Preferably at 100Mb speed? My experience with diskless workstations is that they are limited by paging activity and background updating to really unacceptable performance, even in simple word-processing programs like frame maker doing medium sized books, and even on a local 10 Mb/s network. You are far better off running a workstation with a local disk for system and swap, but running dataless. NFS or comparable networking programs run fine for that. The local caching of the files on disk and in memory assure adequate performance, while the maintenance of your data remotely assures appropriate centralized data management and backup. Remember too, that it is a rare broadband connection that gives you anything approaching 100 Mb/s. A T1 DSL link is specified at 1.54 Mb/s, and it is the fastest of the common broadband links. In addition, there is nothing more frustrating than being unable to operate because your link is down or severely congested, something that happens far more often than the unavailability of a local disk. My view? iSCSI is not an appropriate protocol for home networking data access. Use your IDE or SATA drive locally for boot, swap, system, and any hot programs and use NFS or other remote file access program against a remote server for data and other programs. Bob Snively 408-333-8135 rsnively@brocade.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Russell Lewis [mailto:russelll@us.ibm.com] > Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 9:25 AM > To: ips@ece.cmu.edu > Subject: Are there any coming iSCSI HBAs? Preferably at 100Mb speed? > > > > > > > Does anybody know of any current or coming iSCSI HBAs which > show up (to the > BIOS) as ordinary SCSI adapters? I'd like to drop such an HBA into a > legacy computer and run a totally diskless workstation at home. > > However, since it will be a home computer, I'm willing to > operate at 100Mb > speed - I'm willing to eat the performance hit. It seems to me that > somebody could make an iSCSI HBA with a 100Mb interface and make it > affordable for the home user (say, $50-$100). Anybody know > of such plans? > > --=_alternative 001BB679C2256D09_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Bob,

I think that we where referring to a different environment that uses 100Mb/s for home and can connect some old or new disks to some "older PC's" and get inexpensive arrays that can be shared.

Julo


Robert Snively <rsnively@Brocade.COM>
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu

15/04/03 05:52

To
Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, Robert Snively <rsnively@Brocade.COM>
cc
ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu, Russell Lewis/Tucson/IBM@IBMUS
Subject
RE: Are there any coming iSCSI HBAs? Preferably at 100Mb speed?





Julian,
 
The stated environment was a diskless home system with disks remote.
 
Home system means broadband attachment at less than 1.5 Mb/sec from
the home to the remote iSCSI device, so it really doesn't matter how
fast your local connection is (10 Mb/s or 100 Mb/s, you only get 1.5 Mb/s max)
 
Been there, done that, it is not so hot, unless system, swap, and
program are local, meaning not diskless.  Dataless with NFS works
okay, because all the operational functions run locally and only file
access runs remotely, and that does not require iSCSI (and in fact works better
without iSCSI for comparable technology).
 
The stated environment was legacy, which means there is no administrative
tool or specialized file system to allow the use of shared remote storage.
 
I absolutely agree that native SCSI disks will perform better than IDE disks attached
via local or remote iSCSI.
 
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 4:36 PM
To: Robert Snively
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu; 'Russell Lewis'
Subject: RE: Are there any coming iSCSI HBAs? Preferably at 100Mb speed?

Bob,

I wonder if your opinion is based on real experience or prejudice.
Our measurements indicate that an inexpensive box with SCSI disks performs BETTER than an IDE (typical) desktop drive
using iSCSI over a 100MB/s connection (widely available for home use) - and that includes paging (usually marginal) and all the rest.

       Julo

Robert Snively <rsnively@Brocade.COM>
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu

14/04/03 18:06


To
Russell Lewis/Tucson/IBM@IBMUS, ips@ece.cmu.edu
cc
Subject
RE: Are there any coming iSCSI HBAs?  Preferably at 100Mb speed?







My experience with diskless workstations is that
they are limited by paging activity and background
updating to really unacceptable performance, even in
simple word-processing programs like frame maker
doing medium sized books, and even on a local 10 Mb/s
network.

You are far better off running a workstation with
a local disk for system and swap, but running
dataless.  NFS or comparable networking programs
run fine for that.  The local caching of the files
on disk and in memory assure adequate performance, while
the maintenance of your data remotely assures
appropriate centralized data management and backup.

Remember too, that it is a rare broadband connection
that gives you anything approaching 100 Mb/s.  A T1 DSL link
is specified at 1.54 Mb/s, and it is the fastest of the
common broadband links.

In addition, there is nothing more frustrating than being
unable to operate because your link is down or severely
congested, something that happens far more often than the
unavailability of a local disk.

My view?  iSCSI is not an appropriate protocol for home
networking data access.  Use your IDE or SATA drive locally
for boot, swap, system, and any hot programs and use
NFS or other remote file access program against a remote
server for data and other programs.

Bob Snively
408-333-8135
rsnively@brocade.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Russell Lewis [mailto:russelll@us.ibm.com]
> Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 9:25 AM
> To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: Are there any coming iSCSI HBAs? Preferably at 100Mb speed?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Does anybody know of any current or coming iSCSI HBAs which
> show up (to the
> BIOS) as ordinary SCSI adapters?  I'd like to drop such an HBA into a
> legacy computer and run a totally diskless workstation at home.
>
> However, since it will be a home computer, I'm willing to
> operate at 100Mb
> speed - I'm willing to eat the performance hit.  It seems to me that
> somebody could make an iSCSI HBA with a 100Mb interface and make it
> affordable for the home user (say, $50-$100).  Anybody know
> of such plans?
>
>

--=_alternative 001BB679C2256D09_=--