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Message-ID: <000f01bf3c11$5b958760$8f01e1c8@soho>
From: "Reinaldo Penno Filho" <reinaldo@saga.com.br>
To: <gregboop@us.ibm.com>, "Noah, Matt" <Matt_Noah@adc.com>
Cc: <tacheron@doim6.monmouth.army.mil>, <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
Subject: Re: 
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:32:47 -0200
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Another approach...

"In spite of the apparent simplicity of MOS tests, there are a number of
important issues that must be carefully addressed. In order to avoid biasing
when designing the test, you must keep in mind issues such as test results;
number and type of speakers; number, type and training of listeners; and
presentation of the listening material. Issues that need attention during
processing of the results are: score distributions, standard deviation, and
confidence intervals.

Unfortunately, in spite of the care exercised in the design of a MOS test,
MOS numbers tend to vary significantly from test to test. As such, the
current wisdom suggests that MOS numbers should not be seen as absolute
values, but should be used for relative ranking of various coders used in a
given test. In the pursuit of speech quality measures that would not vary
much from test to test, an alternate method called MNRU has recently become
popular. In this approach, clean speech is degraded by incorporating known
amounts of "waveform distortion." These speech samples are evaluated in a
MOS test along with candidate coders. By comparing the MOS of the degraded
speech material and the candidate coded speech material, the equivalent
distortion level is determined for the candidate coder. Often, this
distortion is expressed in dB and is seen to be less variable from test to
test.

A drawback of MOS tests is that the listener is forced to rate all types of
signal degradations (such as sounding nasal, fluttering, muffled,
interrupted, thin, and rasping) as well as noise types (hissing, buzzing,
babbling, and rumbling) in a single measure. This can lead to a large
variance in the scores due to the variances in each listener's perceptual
sensitivity and training. Thus a test called the dynamic acceptability (DAM)
test was developed that allows listeners to score on several signal quality
and noise effects and then averages the results. DAM scores vary from 0 to
100, with "good" coders having a score of about 50. While this test does
provide a more scientific measure of speech quality, it is also more
involved to administer.

Although speech quality measurement strictly requires subjective tests such
as those described above, having quantitative measurements of speech quality
can be useful in the development of new algorithms, and in comparative
analysis of two different coders. Two of the more commonly used objective
measures are time domain segmental SNR and spectral distance measure. Both
these tests compare transcoded speech to the original speech and are not
absolute quality measures. The segmental SNR is computed by splitting the
signal into 20ms to 30ms segments, and SNR is computed for each segment,
then averaged. Segments with no speech are not used in calculations. The
spectral distance measures are based on the theory that human hearing is
more sensitive to the magnitude spectrum of the signal and less to the phase
spectrum. Thus time domain SNR measures can be misleading, and therefore
spectral measures have been developed. "

Multimedia Systems Design 02/98

Best Regards,

_________________________________
Reinaldo Penno Filho
Consultor  Tecnico
SAGA Sistemas e Computadores S.A.
tel: 55-21-5508506
e-mail :  reinaldo@saga.com.br

Universidade  Federal do Rio de Janeiro
Nucleo de Computacao Eletronica / Instituto de  Matematica
Grupo de Redes de Alta Velocidade
e-mail : reinaldo@posgrad.nce.ufrj.br

ACM Member
reinaldo@acm.org
________________________________





-----Original Message-----
From: gregboop@us.ibm.com <gregboop@us.ibm.com>
To: Noah, Matt <Matt_Noah@adc.com>
Cc: 'tacheron@doim6.monmouth.army.mil' <tacheron@doim6.monmouth.army.mil>;
iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
Date: 31 de Dezembro de 1998 09:23
Subject: RE:


>
>
>Hello,
>
>The most commonly accepted measure of Voice Quality associated
>with VoIP is the Mean Opinion Score. In this measurement system,
>POTS (regular phone) is considered a 4. G.723.1 comes in at 3.98.
>Anything above 3.5 is considered acceptable.
>
>More information can probably be found at sites of companies that
>license DSP code for encoding voice ... e.g. the DSP Group at
>http://www.dspg.com
>
>Best Regards,
>
>- Greg Boop
>   Mgr - VoIP Development
>   IBM - NHD
>   RTP, NC, USA
>   Phone: +1 919 254 0319
>   gregboop@us.ibm.com
>



---------
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Sat Jan  2 10:00:50 1999
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Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 12:05:04 +0200
From: Ami Amir <amir@radvision.rad.co.il>
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Hi Reinaldo,

MOS is only one measure - since the transport of other media types - e.g. DTMF,
Music on Hold, Modem and FAX are not considered (are should be supported in some
networks).

In addition, some services - e.g. 3 way calls - require encodings that are clsoe
to linear.

It all comes back to the call model and the applications/services that need to
be supported.

As an aside - on backbone networks, the bandwidth savings achieved by high audio
compression ratios are not that significant, especially if one balances the
added cost of the special means needed to handle the other media types (e.g.
mdoems and fax).

To summarize - MOS has limited applicability to the problem at hand and is only
one of the parameters to be used.

Ami

Reinaldo Penno Filho wrote:

> > ----------
> > From:         Reinaldo Penno Filho[SMTP:REINALDO@SAGA.COM.BR]
> > Sent:         Wednesday, December 01, 1999 5:32:47 PM
> > To:   gregboop@us.ibm.com; Noah, Matt
> > Cc:   tacheron@doim6.monmouth.army.mil; iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
> > Subject:      Re:
> > Auto forwarded by a Rule
> >
> Another approach...
>
> "In spite of the apparent simplicity of MOS tests, there are a number of
> important issues that must be carefully addressed. In order to avoid biasing
> when designing the test, you must keep in mind issues such as test results;
> number and type of speakers; number, type and training of listeners; and
> presentation of the listening material. Issues that need attention during
> processing of the results are: score distributions, standard deviation, and
> confidence intervals.
>
> Unfortunately, in spite of the care exercised in the design of a MOS test,
> MOS numbers tend to vary significantly from test to test. As such, the
> current wisdom suggests that MOS numbers should not be seen as absolute
> values, but should be used for relative ranking of various coders used in a
> given test. In the pursuit of speech quality measures that would not vary
> much from test to test, an alternate method called MNRU has recently become
> popular. In this approach, clean speech is degraded by incorporating known
> amounts of "waveform distortion." These speech samples are evaluated in a
> MOS test along with candidate coders. By comparing the MOS of the degraded
> speech material and the candidate coded speech material, the equivalent
> distortion level is determined for the candidate coder. Often, this
> distortion is expressed in dB and is seen to be less variable from test to
> test.
>
> A drawback of MOS tests is that the listener is forced to rate all types of
> signal degradations (such as sounding nasal, fluttering, muffled,
> interrupted, thin, and rasping) as well as noise types (hissing, buzzing,
> babbling, and rumbling) in a single measure. This can lead to a large
> variance in the scores due to the variances in each listener's perceptual
> sensitivity and training. Thus a test called the dynamic acceptability (DAM)
> test was developed that allows listeners to score on several signal quality
> and noise effects and then averages the results. DAM scores vary from 0 to
> 100, with "good" coders having a score of about 50. While this test does
> provide a more scientific measure of speech quality, it is also more
> involved to administer.
>
> Although speech quality measurement strictly requires subjective tests such
> as those described above, having quantitative measurements of speech quality
> can be useful in the development of new algorithms, and in comparative
> analysis of two different coders. Two of the more commonly used objective
> measures are time domain segmental SNR and spectral distance measure. Both
> these tests compare transcoded speech to the original speech and are not
> absolute quality measures. The segmental SNR is computed by splitting the
> signal into 20ms to 30ms segments, and SNR is computed for each segment,
> then averaged. Segments with no speech are not used in calculations. The
> spectral distance measures are based on the theory that human hearing is
> more sensitive to the magnitude spectrum of the signal and less to the phase
> spectrum. Thus time domain SNR measures can be misleading, and therefore
> spectral measures have been developed. "
>
> Multimedia Systems Design 02/98
>
> Best Regards,
>
> _________________________________
> Reinaldo Penno Filho
> Consultor  Tecnico
> SAGA Sistemas e Computadores S.A.
> tel: 55-21-5508506
> e-mail :  reinaldo@saga.com.br
>
> Universidade  Federal do Rio de Janeiro
> Nucleo de Computacao Eletronica / Instituto de  Matematica
> Grupo de Redes de Alta Velocidade
> e-mail : reinaldo@posgrad.nce.ufrj.br
>
> ACM Member
> reinaldo@acm.org
> ________________________________
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gregboop@us.ibm.com <gregboop@us.ibm.com>
> To: Noah, Matt <Matt_Noah@adc.com>
> Cc: 'tacheron@doim6.monmouth.army.mil' <tacheron@doim6.monmouth.army.mil>;
> iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
> Date: 31 de Dezembro de 1998 09:23
> Subject: RE:
>
> >
> >
> >Hello,
> >
> >The most commonly accepted measure of Voice Quality associated
> >with VoIP is the Mean Opinion Score. In this measurement system,
> >POTS (regular phone) is considered a 4. G.723.1 comes in at 3.98.
> >Anything above 3.5 is considered acceptable.
> >
> >More information can probably be found at sites of companies that
> >license DSP code for encoding voice ... e.g. the DSP Group at
> >http://www.dspg.com
> >
> >Best Regards,
> >
> >- Greg Boop
> >   Mgr - VoIP Development
> >   IBM - NHD
> >   RTP, NC, USA
> >   Phone: +1 919 254 0319
> >   gregboop@us.ibm.com
> >
>
> ---------
> This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.



---------
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Wed Jan  6 22:19:31 1999
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Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 16:56:25 -0500
From: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>
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Folks,

Minutes of the Orlando meeting are now available at our web site:

http://www.bell-labs.com/mailing-lists/iptel/

Thanks,
Jonathan R.
-- 
Jonathan D. Rosenberg                       Lucent Technologies
Member of Technical Staff                   101 Crawfords Corner Rd.
High Speed Networks Research                Holmdel, NJ 07733
FAX:   (732) 834-5379                       Rm. 4C-526
EMAIL: jdrosen@bell-labs.com
URL: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~jdrosen
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Thu Jan  7 06:26:41 1999
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Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 01:27:32 -0500
From: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>
Organization: Bell Laboratories
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To: Dean Willis <Dean.Willis@mci.com>
CC: Conference Control List <confctrl@isi.edu>,
        list iptel <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
Subject: Re: Capability-based routing in SIP
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Dean Willis wrote:
> 

> I could perhaps work around this problem by defining a different
> username for each device, associating capabilities with usernames in my
> ULS configuration, but this seems rather a complex kludge.
> 
> To summarize the issues:
> 
> 1) Capability-based routing seems to require parsing the SDP to decide
> what the session type is. This is problematic for fast setups.

Not really. Parsing SDP is pretty fast when you don't need everything;
just quickly read through the lines until you find the m= lines, and
look for fax, audio, video, or whatever.


> Am I missing something obvious here, or do we really need a richer
> capability description and handling mechanism to handle these scenarios?

This is an excellent point, Dean. The right way to handle this becomes
clearer when you extend the requirements a bit more. What you are asking
for is that a user should be able to direct the call routing of a proxy.
In this case, its based on the SDP in the INVITE. More generally, it
might be based on time of day, caller, subject, method, etc. SO, how do
we devise a means for allowing a user to instruct a SIP server on call
routing? The answer is the call processing language in iptel! It is for
exactly this purpose. I think what you have come up with is another
requirement as input for the language:

<switch index="media">
  <case value="fax">
    <proxy dest="sip:faxaddress@mci.com"/>
  </case>

  <case value="video">
    <proxy dest="sip:videoaddress@mci.com"/>
  </case>

</switch>

You would then upload the CPL to the server in the REGISTER message.

Conceivably, a REGISTER message could contain SDP, in which case the
registrar would interpret it as a capabilities description for call
routing. Its messy, but it works and this is what pint is doing. It
quickly breaks down when you want to add other routing logic, in which
case the CPL is clearly a better choice.

-Jonathan R.
-- 
Jonathan D. Rosenberg                       Lucent Technologies
Member of Technical Staff                   101 Crawfords Corner Rd.
High Speed Networks Research                Holmdel, NJ 07733
FAX: (732) 834-5379                         Rm. 4C-526
EMAIL: jdrosen@bell-labs.com
URL: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~jdrosen
---------
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Thu Jan  7 15:24:28 1999
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Message-ID: <87830212CCB1D011881300A0245175F5558F34@VANTS02>
From: Jerry Skene <Jerry.Skene@tellabs.com>
To: sigtran@BayNetworks.COM, list iptel
	 <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>,
        "'tsg16q13@itu.int'"
	 <tsg16q13@itu.int>,
        "'stg16q14@itu.int'" <stg16q14@itu.int>,
        "'Taylor, Tom-PT [SKY:B318-I:EXCH]'" <Tom-PT.Taylor.taylor@nt.com>,
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Subject: Notice of Meeting and Call for Contributions on new ITU question 
	on Internet Gateway Equipment
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:40:34 -0500 
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Notice of Meeting and Call for Contributions on new ITU question on
Internet Gateway Equipment

In October, the Telecommunications Standardization Bureau of the
International Telecommunications Union, (ITU-T) Study Group 15
(Transport Networks, Systems and Equipment)approved a new Question
dealing with interconnection equipment between the GSTN and IP Networks.
The first meeting of this new Question (Q21/15)will be held in
conjunction with the Study Group 15/Working Party 2 interim meeting on
16 - 19 February, 1999.

ITU members can find the full text of the question on the ITU Informal
FTP Area, at:
http://ftp.itu.int/u/tsg15/sg15/wp2/q21/q21_index.htm
Note that this site is password protected, and is accessible to ITU
members only.

Non-ITU members can find the text of the Question at:
http://www.coherent.com/itu 

This message is a call for contributions on this important new work. The
goal of
the February meeting is to establish working methods for the Question,
the baseline structure for the Recommendation, a timetable for
completion of the work, and to begin
drafting text.

The Recommendation being developed in this Question will be of interest
to the following parties:
- GSTN telephony carriers interfacing or planning to interface their
networks to the Internet
- Internet Service Providers carrying or planning to carry telephony
traffic originating or terminating on the GSTN
- Network equipment vendors providing or developing Internet
Telephony interface equipment

Meeting Registration
ITU and interested non-ITU members may attend this meeting. Details on
registration for the interim meeting may be obtained from the host, Tom
Oshidari [toshidari@ditechcorp.com]. The venue for the meeting is the
Sheraton on Fisherman's Wharf, San Francisco. The meeting will be one
day long, and will be held during the week of February 15-19. The
specific day will be known by January 15.

Contributions
If you plan to attend this meeting, please let the Rapporteur, Mr. Jerry
Skene and the host, Mr. Oshidari know. If you plan to submit a
contribution on this topic, please email it to the Rapporteur, and it
will be included in the discussion. 

If you are a non ITU member, you are most welcome to attend and to
submit contributions. Please contact the rapporteur for guidance on
this.

To ensure proper consideration of a contribution, the title of the
contribution must be received by the rapporteur no later than January 8,
1999.

Sincerely;

Jerry Skene   Rapporteur, Q21/15

_________________________________________________
Jerry Skene              | Tellabs, Inc.
Director,                | 45085 University Drive
International Standards  | Ashburn, VA 20147.2745 USA
tel:+1 703 724-7302      | URL: www.tellabs.com
fax: +1 703 724-7202     | email: jerry.skene@tellabs.com 



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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Thu Jan  7 16:41:34 1999
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        "'TIPHON_WG5@LIST.ETSI.FR'" <TIPHON_WG5@LIST.ETSI.FR>
Message-ID: <3694E986.D134ABC@lucent.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 12:06:14 -0500
From: Binshi Cao <bcao@lucent.com>
Organization: Lucent Technologies
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To: Jerry Skene <Jerry.Skene@tellabs.com>
Original-CC: sigtran@BayNetworks.COM, list iptel <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>,
        "'tsg16q13@itu.int'" <tsg16q13@itu.int>,
        "'stg16q14@itu.int'" <stg16q14@itu.int>,
        "'Taylor, Tom-PT [SKY:B318-I:EXCH]'" <Tom-PT.Taylor.taylor@nt.com>,
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        "'TIPHON_WG5@LIST.ETSI.FR'" <TIPHON_WG5@LIST.ETSI.FR>
Subject: QUESTION 21/15 - Transport Network Equipment for Interconnecting GSTN and IP Networks
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In the section of Relationship of Q 21/15, we should put TIA which defines TDMA
and CDMA standard.

Binshi Cao.

Jerry Skene wrote:
> 
> Notice of Meeting and Call for Contributions on new ITU question on
> Internet Gateway Equipment
> 
> In October, the Telecommunications Standardization Bureau of the
> International Telecommunications Union, (ITU-T) Study Group 15
> (Transport Networks, Systems and Equipment)approved a new Question
> dealing with interconnection equipment between the GSTN and IP Networks.
> The first meeting of this new Question (Q21/15)will be held in
> conjunction with the Study Group 15/Working Party 2 interim meeting on
> 16 - 19 February, 1999.
> 
> ITU members can find the full text of the question on the ITU Informal
> FTP Area, at:
> http://ftp.itu.int/u/tsg15/sg15/wp2/q21/q21_index.htm
> Note that this site is password protected, and is accessible to ITU
> members only.
> 
> Non-ITU members can find the text of the Question at:
> http://www.coherent.com/itu
> 
> This message is a call for contributions on this important new work. The
> goal of
> the February meeting is to establish working methods for the Question,
> the baseline structure for the Recommendation, a timetable for
> completion of the work, and to begin
> drafting text.
> 
> The Recommendation being developed in this Question will be of interest
> to the following parties:
> - GSTN telephony carriers interfacing or planning to interface their
> networks to the Internet
> - Internet Service Providers carrying or planning to carry telephony
> traffic originating or terminating on the GSTN
> - Network equipment vendors providing or developing Internet
> Telephony interface equipment
> 
> Meeting Registration
> ITU and interested non-ITU members may attend this meeting. Details on
> registration for the interim meeting may be obtained from the host, Tom
> Oshidari [toshidari@ditechcorp.com]. The venue for the meeting is the
> Sheraton on Fisherman's Wharf, San Francisco. The meeting will be one
> day long, and will be held during the week of February 15-19. The
> specific day will be known by January 15.
> 
> Contributions
> If you plan to attend this meeting, please let the Rapporteur, Mr. Jerry
> Skene and the host, Mr. Oshidari know. If you plan to submit a
> contribution on this topic, please email it to the Rapporteur, and it
> will be included in the discussion.
> 
> If you are a non ITU member, you are most welcome to attend and to
> submit contributions. Please contact the rapporteur for guidance on
> this.
> 
> To ensure proper consideration of a contribution, the title of the
> contribution must be received by the rapporteur no later than January 8,
> 1999.
> 
> Sincerely;
> 
> Jerry Skene   Rapporteur, Q21/15
> 
> _________________________________________________
> Jerry Skene              | Tellabs, Inc.
> Director,                | 45085 University Drive
> International Standards  | Ashburn, VA 20147.2745 USA
> tel:+1 703 724-7302      | URL: www.tellabs.com
> fax: +1 703 724-7202     | email: jerry.skene@tellabs.com
> 
> ---------
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Thu Jan  7 16:50:36 1999
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From: "Dean Willis" <Dean.Willis@mci.com>
To: "Jonathan Rosenberg" <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>
Cc: "Conference Control List" <confctrl@ISI.EDU>,
        "list iptel" <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
Subject: RE: Capability-based routing in SIP
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:13:39 -0600
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Jonathan Rosenberg wrote
> Dean Willis wrote:
> > Am I missing something obvious here, or do we really need a richer
> > capability description and handling mechanism to handle
> these scenarios?
. . .
> requirement as input for the language (CPL):
>
> <switch index="media">
>   <case value="fax">
>     <proxy dest="sip:faxaddress@mci.com"/>
>   </case>
>
>   <case value="video">
>     <proxy dest="sip:videoaddress@mci.com"/>
>   </case>
>
> </switch>
>
> You would then upload the CPL to the server in the REGISTER message.

A very thought provoking suggestion, Jonathan.

Adding the media type to the CPL certainly enables user-controlled media
routing and sounds like a reasonable way to handle it. Of course, my
server developer friends here don't like the idea of having to interpret
code to route a call -- they think in fairly large scales -- but the
basic idea is sound. They have decided that parsing the SDP is probably
required and are willing to think about it.

However, uploading the CPL in the REGISTER doesn't sound reasonable --
that would seem to require every dynamic device to know enough of the
state of other dynamic devices to be able to construct a full CPL. This
is clearly intractable in larger scenarios.

We rather envision the ULS call routing setup being managed from a user
interface -- Web and/or IVR, and letting SIP endpoints have a more
"incremental" impact on routing.

It might be more effective to have the CPL (or other mechanism) direct
the sessions to a "class" of endpoints based on capability, perhaps with
some sort of priority weighting within the class (q?). Then an endpoint
would simply need to include enough information in a REGISTER that the
ULS could add the endpoint to the correct class with an appropriate
priority. One could build the class as a priority-ordered list of URIs,
which would be useful for both sequential redirects and forking proxies.

I believe one could implement the scenarios I had in mind with this sort
of arrangement.

The trick, though, becomes defining the set of classes, and specifying
the REGISTER mechanism for class membership. I think I wish I could do
it all in the Contact header of the REGISTER. Perhaps there is some meat
to Dan Wing's suggestion that the CONNEG WG's work will help here --
guess I need to go read it ;-).

On a related note -- I'm thinking that some of this behaviour collides
with the current draft (sec 4.2.6), which states that the REGISTERS's
URI is compared to existing registrations, and replaces equivalent
current registrations subject to values of q and ttl. Oddly enough, the
behavior for a REGISTER of equivalent URI with matching q and ttl seems
undefined. The real problem here is that a registration for class FAX
would collide with (and replace) a registration for class VOICE if the q
and ttls matched . . .

--
Dean

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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Fri Jan  8 00:52:00 1999
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Message-ID: <36955D6C.82296999@cs.columbia.edu>
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 20:20:44 -0500
From: Henning Schulzrinne <hgs@cs.columbia.edu>
Organization: Columbia University, Dept. of Computer Science
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Subject: Re: Capability-based routing in SIP
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Jonathan Rosenberg wrote:
> 

> 
> You would then upload the CPL to the server in the REGISTER message.

Or it would be generated automatically by the cgi script or servlet
running on the customer configuration web server. It remains to be
discussed whether CPL scripts can be generated incrementally, so that
one could just upload a "media subroutine".

-- 
Henning Schulzrinne   http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Fri Jan  8 07:15:53 1999
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Dean Willis wrote:
> 
> Adding the media type to the CPL certainly enables user-controlled media
> routing and sounds like a reasonable way to handle it. Of course, my
> server developer friends here don't like the idea of having to interpret
> code to route a call -- they think in fairly large scales -- but the
> basic idea is sound. They have decided that parsing the SDP is probably
> required and are willing to think about it.

You don't neccesarily need to interpret the code to route the call.
Thats an implementation decision. An optimizied implementation might
"compile" it in some fashion or otherwise store it locally in a more
optimized form. There are ways to even push the CPL processing into
separate boxes from the SIP processing and proxying box. iptel is not
going to standardize such interfaces right now, but its not such a
stretch to see how SIP CGI or even an IN call-model/INAP solution could
work there.

> 
> However, uploading the CPL in the REGISTER doesn't sound reasonable --
> that would seem to require every dynamic device to know enough of the
> state of other dynamic devices to be able to construct a full CPL. This
> is clearly intractable in larger scenarios.

I have been thinking about this also, in fact, and came to the same
conclusion. The fundamental problem is that the SIP REGISTER message, as
currently specified, is a *terminal* registration function (i.e., it
specifies call routing state for just a terminal), while the CPL
specifies a *user* registration function, potentially encapsulating many
terminals. I came up with several scenarios where the wrong thing
happens, forgetting even the scaling and communications issues:

I'm at home, and upload a CPL in a REGISTER that says to try me at home
then work. I then go to work, and leave the PC at home on. At work, I
send a CPL which says try me at work then home. Now, since REGISTER's
are retransmitted periodically (before they expire), the call routing
logic will oscillate between home-then-work and work-then-home as my
home and work PC's both continue to refresh the registration.

This begs an important question - should a CPL be "soft-state" and
eventually expire? A SIP REGISTER certainly should; a terminal may be
turned off and thus no longer be available. But, the CPL isn't really
representing a terminal, they are my preferences. The expiration of
these preferences doesn't really seem tied to terminal on/off status.
They may expire since the service provider may want to flush out really
old stuff. But, the timescales here seem very different - weeks probably
for a CPL timeout, if it times out at all.


> 
> We rather envision the ULS call routing setup being managed from a user
> interface -- Web and/or IVR, and letting SIP endpoints have a more
> "incremental" impact on routing.

As Henning pointed out, the web/IVR could then generate the CPL and then
send it. The advantage of using the CPL in the back-end is that it
provides a consistent interface for the call routing logic. Whether the
logic is generated by a web form, IVR system, or written by a user, its
all the same. It also supports cross-vendor compatibility for these
services.

> 
> It might be more effective to have the CPL (or other mechanism) direct
> the sessions to a "class" of endpoints based on capability, perhaps with
> some sort of priority weighting within the class (q?). Then an endpoint
> would simply need to include enough information in a REGISTER that the
> ULS could add the endpoint to the correct class with an appropriate
> priority. One could build the class as a priority-ordered list of URIs,
> which would be useful for both sequential redirects and forking proxies.

I think what you mean is something like this:

<condition day="monday">

   <match>
      <proxy dest=phone>
   </match>

   <nomatch>
      <proxy dest=home-pc>
   </nomatch>

</condition>

Then, a SIP REGISTER from my home PC would effectively bind the "class"
home to the URL in the COntact of the register. Is that what you mean?

> 
> I believe one could implement the scenarios I had in mind with this sort
> of arrangement.
> 
> The trick, though, becomes defining the set of classes, and specifying
> the REGISTER mechanism for class membership. I think I wish I could do
> it all in the Contact header of the REGISTER. Perhaps there is some meat
> to Dan Wing's suggestion that the CONNEG WG's work will help here --
> guess I need to go read it ;-).

Hmm. Your suggestion is a neat idea, but it changes the way REGISTER
works. I don't think you need to do it quite this way. How about this:

1. The CPL is like it is now, and forwards to URI's (like
sip:jdrosen@bell-labs.com). 
2. When a server decides to forward a call to sip:jdrosen@bell-labs.com,
it can either (1) attempt to look up the domain name and locate a server
there, or (2) try to translate sip:jdrosen@bell-labs.com using
information learned from REGISTER's or any other locator service (really
REGISTER is a way of building up a location service DB). THe CPL could
specify which.

I think this solves your problem. An example will help. My CPL is:

<condition day="monday">
  <match>
    <proxy dest="sip:jdrosen@home.bell-labs.com uls="register">
  </match>

  <nomatch>
    <proxy dest="sip:jdrosen@arrakis.dnrc.bell-labs.com">
  </nomatch>
</condition>

This could be uploaded in a REGISTER, but the semantics of it (in terms
of updating Contact headers, etc) would be different due to the presence
of the body.

What this says is that when its Monday, I proxy the call to
sip:jdrosen@home.bell-labs.com, but before I do, I try to translate this
URL using the REGISTER locator service. Now, I'll need to configure my
PC at home to send a SIP REGISTER message that looks like:

REGISTER sip:bell-labs.com SIP/2.0
To: sip:jdrosen@home.bell-labs.com
From: sip:jdrosen@bell-labs.com
Contact: sip:jdrosen@home-pc.dnrc.bell-labs.com

So, the REGISTER message binds the URL sip:jdrosen@home.bell-labs.com to
the current address of my home PC. Basically, instead of defining new
classes, we use different SIP addresses as different classes.

No solution is perfect; this one might be harder to configure and be
less intuitive. Also, it sort of distorts the meaning of the SIP URI in
a way that makes me a bit queasy (home.bell-labs.com is a completely
invalid domain name and only exists as an intermediate address) But, it
maintains the current REGISTER semantics since they are what they are. 

I'm open to other suggestions, of course. These issues are critical for
the CPL framework document, since that will need to discuss
transport/interaction issues and its interaction with signaling
protocols like SIP and H.323.
 
> 
> On a related note -- I'm thinking that some of this behaviour collides
> with the current draft (sec 4.2.6), which states that the REGISTERS's
> URI is compared to existing registrations, and replaces equivalent
> current registrations subject to values of q and ttl. Oddly enough, the
> behavior for a REGISTER of equivalent URI with matching q and ttl seems
> undefined. The real problem here is that a registration for class FAX
> would collide with (and replace) a registration for class VOICE if the q
> and ttls matched . . .

You won't have this problem with my solution above since the URL's look
different.

-Jonathan R.

-- 
Jonathan D. Rosenberg                       Lucent Technologies
Member of Technical Staff                   101 Crawfords Corner Rd.
High Speed Networks Research                Holmdel, NJ 07733
FAX: (732) 834-5379                         Rm. 4C-526
EMAIL: jdrosen@bell-labs.com
URL: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~jdrosen
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Fri Jan  8 22:07:11 1999
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Subject: Re: Capability-based routing in SIP
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This raises, I believe, a possible requirement/feature for the CPL:

It should be possible to proxy calls based on the current list of
registrations matching a certain feature. The call control spec, for
example, defines the 'class' and 'media' tags for describing SIP
locations. Thus, a request like

'proxy class=business'

would proxy an incoming call to all registrations that are registered
under that class. Same for the media type; this would avoid parsing the
SDP and be more uniform. Note that the feature negotiation work (see
recent IETF last call) may be applicable here, as the simple model above
can't really express things like:

'proxy to all my registrations that are of class business and support
video or audio'

Note that this is different from conditioning actions on the call
itself, as currently described.
-- 
Henning Schulzrinne   http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Wed Jan 13 21:26:51 1999
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From: Jiri Kuthan <kuthan@fokus.gmd.de>
Message-Id: <199901132112.WAA23068@jobe.fokus.gmd.de>
Subject: A new website on the Internet telephony
To: iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com, confctrl@isi.edu,
        pint@lists.research.bell-labs.com, sigtran@BayNetworks.COM,
        megaco@BayNetworks.COM, TIPHON@list.etsi.fr
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:12:56 +0100 (MET)
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Hello,

  let me announce a new website which concentrates on the Internet telephony.

  The goal of the web-site is to document the current state of art and to
  collect links to useful resources on the Internet telephony. Links to
  standardization bodies, products, research contributions, tutorials and
  other relevant web sites are provided. Selected drafts and standards are
  mirrored. 

  The address is http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/glone/projects/ipt/

  Comments and tips are solicited. 

Jiri

--
Jiri Kuthan		  Phone: ++49 / (0)30 / 3463 - 7 271
GMD FOKUS                 Fax  : ++49 / (0)30 / 3463 - 8 271
Kaiserin-Augusta-Allee 31 E-Mail : kuthan@fokus.gmd.de
D-10589 Berlin, Germany   WWW    : http://www.fokus.gmd.de/usr/kuthan
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Sun Jan 17 15:12:48 1999
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Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:22:22 +0000
From: "Hardie, Paul" <Paul.Hardie@siemenscomms.co.uk>
Subject: G.726 codec availability
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Comments: ***********************************************
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Hi,

Does anyone know where I might find a G.726 (16-kbit) ACM codec to run
on
a Pentium?

Thanks.
____________________________________________
Paul Hardie
Siemens Communications Limited
Nottingham
UK
tel: +44 115 943 2494
fax: +44 115 943 4969
mailto:paul.hardie@siemenscomms.co.uk

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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Mon Jan 18 02:44:58 1999
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From: "Mark Hewitt" <mark@hewitt.net>
To: <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
Subject: New Telephony Web Site
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:12:10 -0500
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New non-commercial Telephony and Multi Media Web site.

http://www.telephony.net

Mark Hewitt
mark@hewitt.net

"A man is literally what he thinks." (James Allen)
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Mon Jan 18 16:19:49 1999
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Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:05:32 +0530
From: Avikal Jain <avikal@usa.net>
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Hi all,

I am studying the security issues related to H.323 proxy. I need to find
out more about the security issues posed by a H.323 proxy. I believe
that the H.323 proxies such as those developed by TIS, Checkpoint and
Cisco, although permitting H.323 traffic,  are not considered very
secure. What are the possible security hazards one must be aware of?
Thanks.

Avikal Jain
Center for Development of Advanced Computing,
Pune 411007, India.
e-mail: avikal@usa.net

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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Mon Jan 18 16:23:47 1999
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Message-ID: <002101be42e2$2c528440$b5454a0a@xmzhao>
From: "xmzhao" <xmzhao@990.net>
To: <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
Subject: CPL based logic or IN service logic?
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:57:57 +0800
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    I'm doing research on deploying Intelligent Services on IP telephony =
systems as my doctorate's subject.=20
    After reading former messages, I feel that the goal of Call =
Processing Language is to provide the same capabilities to IP telephony =
users just as traditional Intelligent Network does to PSTN users. Is =
that true? If it is, since IN systems are much more sophisticated and =
are wildly deployed today, why don't we just connect the IP telephony =
systems with IN SCPs to access traditional IN services? Is building =
service logics based on a brand-new CPL necessary?
    Thank you!

Xiaoming Zhao.
xmzhao@990.net
Institute of Communications Engineering.=20
P.R. of China.

------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BE4325.39F8A500
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="gb2312"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Dgb2312 http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm doing =
research on=20
deploying Intelligent Services on IP telephony systems as my doctorate's =

subject. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; After reading =
former=20
messages, I feel that the goal of Call Processing Language is to provide =
the=20
same capabilities to IP telephony users just as traditional Intelligent =
Network=20
does to PSTN users. Is that true? If it is, since IN systems are much =
more=20
sophisticated and are wildly deployed today, why don't we just connect =
the IP=20
telephony systems with IN SCPs to access traditional IN services? Is =
building=20
service logics based on a brand-new CPL necessary?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thank =
you!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Xiaoming Zhao.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:xmzhao@990.net">xmzhao@990.net</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Institute of Communications =
Engineering.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>P.R. of =
China.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BE4325.39F8A500--

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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Tue Jan 19 00:58:27 1999
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Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:34:14 -0500
From: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>
Organization: Bell Laboratories
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Xiaoming,

You ask a good and important question. While the CPL provides services
similar in style to the IN CS1 services, there are some significant
differences. Most notably, the CPL is for *Internet* telephony services,
and so concepts like URLs, IP addresses, and email are foreign to IN, as
they are Internet specific. However, these form an integral part of the
services provided by the CPL, which will allow things like redirection
to email or proxying to SIP or H.323 URL's. Secondly, the goal of the
CPL is to expose these services to end users in a platform independent,
secure fashion. The fact that the services are defined by end users puts
constraints on the solution.

This is not to say that there is no value in connecting traditional IN
systems to the Internet for services; quite the contrary. I think doing
so is very useful, and will eventually become one of many solutions for
service creation and programming of IP telephony services. There's lots
of work to do before we can just "connect" them, though. 

-Jonathan R.

> xmzhao wrote:
> 
>     I'm doing research on deploying Intelligent Services on IP
> telephony systems as my doctorate's subject.
>     After reading former messages, I feel that the goal of Call
> Processing Language is to provide the same capabilities to IP
> telephony users just as traditional Intelligent Network does to PSTN
> users. Is that true? If it is, since IN systems are much more
> sophisticated and are wildly deployed today, why don't we just connect
> the IP telephony systems with IN SCPs to access traditional IN
> services? Is building service logics based on a brand-new CPL
> necessary?
>     Thank you!
> 
> Xiaoming Zhao.
> xmzhao@990.net
> Institute of Communications Engineering.
> P.R. of China.

-- 
Jonathan D. Rosenberg                       Lucent Technologies
Member of Technical Staff                   101 Crawfords Corner Rd.
High Speed Networks Research                Holmdel, NJ 07733
FAX: (732) 834-5379                         Rm. 4C-526
EMAIL: jdrosen@bell-labs.com
URL: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~jdrosen
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Tue Jan 19 13:04:21 1999
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From: Wan-jiun Liao <wjliao@cc.ee.ntu.edu.tw>
To: iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
Subject: some questions on Internet telephony
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Hi, 

   I have some questions on Internet telephony. Is there someone kindly 
to help me on them or direct me to some references? Thanks a lot. My 
questions are:

1. where I can find IMTC VOIP documents?
2. where I can find TIPHON documents?
3. what is TPKP?
4. whta is AC2000?
5. What are IPDC and SGCP?
6 .Is there any competitor for H.323? 
7. Does any one concern VoIP/VPN?

    Thanks again

Regards,

Wanjiun Liao

National Taiwan University
Taipei, Taiwan
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Tue Jan 19 13:25:49 1999
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        <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
Subject: RE: some questions on Internet telephony
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> 6 .Is there any competitor for H.323? 
Please see:

http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs/sip/ 

and 

http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/glone/projects/ipt/

Thanks, Henry

Henry Sinnreich
MCI WorldCom 1489/041
400 International Parkway
Richardson, Texas 75081


> 7. Does any one concern VoIP/VPN?
> 
>     Thanks again
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Wanjiun Liao
> 
> National Taiwan University
> Taipei, Taiwan
> ---------
> This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.
> 
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Tue Jan 19 17:35:27 1999
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Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:28:59 -0500
From: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>
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This question is best handled by the mmusic group, the mailing list is
confctrl@isi.edu.

In any case, the answer to your question is that proxy and redirect
servers are optional. Two user agents can directly communicate with SIP.

-Jonathan R.

Aishling wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> I'm studying Internet Telephony for a final year project, and I was
> wondering if it is necessary to have a proxy or redirect server.  Can an
> application be SIP complient if it does not have a proxy or redirect
> server.
> 
> Thanks
> Aishling
> 
> ---------
> This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.

-- 
Jonathan D. Rosenberg                       Lucent Technologies
Member of Technical Staff                   101 Crawfords Corner Rd.
High Speed Networks Research                Holmdel, NJ 07733
FAX:   (732) 834-5379                       Rm. 4C-526
EMAIL: jdrosen@bell-labs.com
URL: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~jdrosen
---------
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Tue Jan 19 17:43:16 1999
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From: Aishling <irelanda@tcd.ie>
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Subject: SIP
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Hi

I'm studying Internet Telephony for a final year project, and I was
wondering if it is necessary to have a proxy or redirect server.  Can an
application be SIP complient if it does not have a proxy or redirect
server.

Thanks
Aishling

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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Tue Jan 19 20:24:34 1999
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To: Wan-jiun Liao <wjliao@cc.ee.ntu.edu.tw>
From: "Louise F. A. Spergel" <spergel@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: some questions on Internet telephony
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At 09:20 PM 1/19/99 +0800, Wan-jiun Liao wrote:
>Hi, 
>
>   I have some questions on Internet telephony. Is there someone kindly 
>to help me on them or direct me to some references? Thanks a lot. My 
>questions are:
>
>1. where I can find IMTC VOIP documents?
>2. where I can find TIPHON documents?

http://www.etsi.org/tiphon 
and
http://docbox.etsi.org/tech-org/tiphon/Document/tiphon

Louise

>3. what is TPKP?
>4. whta is AC2000?
>5. What are IPDC and SGCP?
>6 .Is there any competitor for H.323? 
>7. Does any one concern VoIP/VPN?
>
>    Thanks again
>
>Regards,
>
>Wanjiun Liao
>
>National Taiwan University
>Taipei, Taiwan
>---------
>This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.
>
---------
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Wed Jan 20 00:18:47 1999
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My question is that: if you don't use proxy server in SIP, how can you get
control and management capability comparing with H.323 gatekeeper system?
If you use proxy server model, is there any significant difference between
H.323 and SIP?
Thanks for any comments!

Hanlin


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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Wed Jan 20 15:36:15 1999
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From: "Nancy-M Greene" <ngreene@nortelnetworks.com>
To: Wan-jiun Liao <wjliao@cc.ee.ntu.edu.tw>
Cc: iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
Subject: RE: some questions on Internet telephony
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:52:41 -0500
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> At 09:20 PM 1/19/99 +0800, Wan-jiun Liao wrote:
> >Hi, 
> >
> >   I have some questions on Internet telephony. Is there someone kindly 
> >to help me on them or direct me to some references? Thanks a lot. My 
> >questions are:
> >
> >1. where I can find IMTC VOIP documents?
> >2. where I can find TIPHON documents?
> >3. what is TPKP?
> >4. whta is AC2000?
> >5. What are IPDC and SGCP?
IPDC and SGCP were device control proposals that led to the creation of a
new IETF WG called Media Gateway Control (megaco). The mailing list for this
WG is megaco@baynetworks.com, and to join you send a msg to
majordomo@baynetworks.com with subscribe megaco in the message body. 
> >6 .Is there any competitor for H.323? 
> >7. Does any one concern VoIP/VPN?
> >
> >    Thanks again
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Wanjiun Liao
> >
> >National Taiwan University
> >Taipei, Taiwan
> >---------
> >This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.
> >
> ---------
> This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.
> 
---------
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Wed Jan 20 21:43:55 1999
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        <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
From: Douglas Clowes <dclowes@ozemail.com.au>
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Göran,

What am I doing in mail so old, .... someone else referred me to it.

anyway, you had questions:

At 17:34 02/10/98 +0200, Göran AP Eriksson wrote:
>
>Hi Douglas, cc: others.
>
>You wrote:
>
>Indeed, the Location Server Client Access Protocol should be encapsulated
>wrt how a Location Server does its job - i.e. whether it *has* the required
>information, has to go and get it, ior just invents it as it goes along. It
>should be independent, as far as possible, from whether the client is a PC,
>black IP phone, gateway or gatekeeper (although SIP/H.323 independence
>might be more of a problem).
>
>To put it differently, I see the Location Server being co-resident with a
>Back-End-Server that (logically) provides other services, such as
>authentication, authorisation, usage-recording and call-accounting. Your
>view may differ.
>
>
>Allowing for a situation in which the Location Server is not co-located with
>the gate keeper seems appropriate. Location Management can be many things,
>and solved in many ways. One should allow for that.
>
>However, what's your view on the need to secure the communication between
>the LM and the Gk?

That depends very much on what you put in the protocol. The location
translation may well be regarded as commercial property, and must be paid
for. That may be a reason for some to secure it.

Then there is the privacy issue. Some people are sensitive to others
knowing who they called, and when, and how long, etc.. Some are sensitive
to others knowing when they were called, or when their number was looked up.

I think it needs to be secure.

>Also, about the Back- End server; You mention that it may have several
>services, such
>as location management, AAA, etc? I assume that this implies different
>protocols as
>well, one for each service?

This issue has come up a number of times, and some people feel strongly
either way.

There are those who say "maximum use of existing protocols" and, since
there are protocols that can be used for various functions, advocate using
a lot of different protocols.

Others are sensitive to things such as call setup time, number of round
trips, etc.. These people advocate a special "purpose built" protocol.

Who's right? It depends who you ask. And, even then, you can get
conflicting answers from the same individual.

>Regards,
>
>G AP Eriksson
>Ericsson Radio
>
><The content of this mail reflect my personal view only.>

Regards,

Douglas

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From: "Christian J. van den Branden Lambrecht" <vdb@hpl.hp.com>
To: "Christian J. van den Branden Lambrecht" <vdb@hpl.hp.com>
Subject: Session on Internet Telephony at the '99 SPIE Intl Symposium on Voice, Video, and Data Communications
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 17:59:29 -0800
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SPIE's International Symposium on
Voice, Video, and Data Communications

Conference on Multimedia Systems and Applications II (vv06)

Session on Standards and Systems for Internet Telephony

Dear Colleagues,

We are organizing a session to be held within the conference on Multimedia
Systems and Applications II of the SPIE's International Symposium on Voice,
Video, and Data Communications. The session is intended to gather topical
papers discussing Internet Telephony systems and standards. The session is
meant to be tutorial and discuss all the aspects of internet telephony
systems, including but not limited to:
- H.323 protocol stack,
- IETF standards for internet telephony,
- Network management for internet telephony,
- Signaling,
- Audio compression,
- Gateways/Gatekeepers,
- Quality of Service management,
- Interoperability.

We are seeking to bring together researchers and practitioners and we are
looking for review or tutorial papers as well as contributions describing
original work. We are now soliciting contributions for this particular
session. The timetable is as follows:

Abstract due date:				February 22, 1999
Abstract due date for on-site proceedings:		February 8, 1999
Manuscript due date:				August 23, 1999
Manuscript due date for on-site proceedings:		June 28, 1999

The conference will be held in Boston, MA, September 19-22, 1999 at the
Hynes Convention Center.

Further information, call for papers, etc. can be found at
http://www.spie.org/info/vv/. Further information for this session can be
obtained by email to vdb@hpl.hp.com.

Please feel free to forward this announcement to any interested person.


=============================================================
Christian J. van den Branden Lambrecht  Voice: 650-857-7658
Hewlett-Packard Laboratories              Fax: 650-857-4691
1501 Page Mill Road, MS 1U20            Email: vdb@hpl.hp.com
Palo Alto, CA 94304                            vdb@ieee.org
=============================================================



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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Thu Jan 21 19:50:23 1999
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Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:51:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Sujatha Balaraman <sujathab@ece.ucdavis.edu>
To: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>
cc: xmzhao <xmzhao@990.net>, iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
Subject: IP Telphony Gateway Pricing
In-Reply-To: <36A3E116.20019265@dnrc.bell-labs.com>
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Hi,
	I"m trying to formulate a pricing model for the Telephony Gateway
based on QOS offered. I am pretty confused on the type of topology to use
to simulate the same. Does anyone out there have any idea on the type of
topology/traffic to simulate to test the same. Can you also suggest any
papers which study Gateway Location and pricing using simulation results
with description of simulation model.

Thanks
Sujatha. 

******************************************************************************
Sujatha Balaraman              *  Networks Lab
			       *  UC Davis.
			       *  e-mail :sujathab@ece.ucdavis.edu
609, Anderson Road             *          sbalaraman@ucdavis.edu
Apt: 287,                      *    
Davis                          *   Ph: 530-750-3897
CA  95616                      *      
*******************************************************************************


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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Thu Jan 21 20:29:33 1999
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Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:05:34 -0500
From: Henning Schulzrinne <hgs@cs.columbia.edu>
Organization: Columbia University, Dept. of Computer Science
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To: "Paul E. Jones" <paul.jones@ties.itu.int>
CC: Hanlin_Fang@3com.com, Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>,
        Aishling <irelanda@tcd.ie>, iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
Subject: Re: SIP
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"Paul E. Jones" wrote:
> 
> Hanlin,
> 
> This is one of the very issues that I have struggled with.  In the Internet
> environment, protocols consume bandwidth as they need.  Latency can be high,
> but it is tolerable.  The idea of introducing voice and video into the IP
> network means that there must be some control over the bandwidth, otherwise
> the quality of the call (if the call can be placed at all) will suffer.
> 
> Imagine this scenario:  an earthquake strikes California.  Everybody in the
> state and out of the state attempts to place calls in and out of the
> earthquake zone to check on friends and family.  Today's telephone equipment
> will allow a certain number of calls to succeed-- all other attempts will
> fail due to busy circuits.  With the use of SIP in an IP telephone device,
> there is nothing (that I can see) that would prevent everyone from
> attempting to place calls simultaneously.  The end result is that all of the
> calls would suffer to the point that nobody could understand anything said
> on the call.  Something must control the traffic.
> 
> Surely the SIP designers have planned for this scenario.  I would love to
> know how the situation would be handled in a SIP environment.

SIP does not control network resource usage; that's the role of RSVP,
diff-serv, etc. Indeed, it likely avoids the signaling overload problem
encountered by traditional PSTN services as it may bypass all but the
final end system. Since SIP can transmit limited out-of-band data, the
California earthquake situation would actually handled much more readily
by SIP:

INVITE joe@sf.ca.us
From: mary@sj.ca.us
Subject: I'm fine but all the china is in pieces



-- 
Henning Schulzrinne   http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Thu Jan 21 20:30:41 1999
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From: "Paul E. Jones" <paul.jones@ties.itu.int>
To: <Hanlin_Fang@3com.com>, "Jonathan Rosenberg" <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>
Cc: "Aishling" <irelanda@tcd.ie>, <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
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Hanlin,

This is one of the very issues that I have struggled with.  In the Internet
environment, protocols consume bandwidth as they need.  Latency can be high,
but it is tolerable.  The idea of introducing voice and video into the IP
network means that there must be some control over the bandwidth, otherwise
the quality of the call (if the call can be placed at all) will suffer.

Imagine this scenario:  an earthquake strikes California.  Everybody in the
state and out of the state attempts to place calls in and out of the
earthquake zone to check on friends and family.  Today's telephone equipment
will allow a certain number of calls to succeed-- all other attempts will
fail due to busy circuits.  With the use of SIP in an IP telephone device,
there is nothing (that I can see) that would prevent everyone from
attempting to place calls simultaneously.  The end result is that all of the
calls would suffer to the point that nobody could understand anything said
on the call.  Something must control the traffic.

Surely the SIP designers have planned for this scenario.  I would love to
know how the situation would be handled in a SIP environment.

Best Regards,
Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Hanlin_Fang@3com.com <Hanlin_Fang@3com.com>
To: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>
Cc: Aishling <irelanda@tcd.ie>; iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
<iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 12:34 AM
Subject: Re: SIP


>My question is that: if you don't use proxy server in SIP, how can you get
>control and management capability comparing with H.323 gatekeeper system?
>If you use proxy server model, is there any significant difference between
>H.323 and SIP?
>Thanks for any comments!
>
>Hanlin
>
>
>---------
>This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.

---------
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Thu Jan 21 21:10:19 1999
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Paul E. Jones wrote:
> 
> Imagine this scenario:  an earthquake strikes California.  Everybody in the
> state and out of the state attempts to place calls in and out of the
> earthquake zone to check on friends and family.  Today's telephone equipment
> will allow a certain number of calls to succeed-- all other attempts will
> fail due to busy circuits.  With the use of SIP in an IP telephone device,
> there is nothing (that I can see) that would prevent everyone from
> attempting to place calls simultaneously.  The end result is that all of the
> calls would suffer to the point that nobody could understand anything said
> on the call.  Something must control the traffic.
> 
> Surely the SIP designers have planned for this scenario.  I would love to
> know how the situation would be handled in a SIP environment.

There are several issues here that are being roled into one. SIP does
not address network QoS. That is left to other mechanisms, such as RSVP
and/or diffserv. With RSVP, routers would reject reservations once the
capacity in a router is reached. With diffserv, border routers will have
policers to make sure that people abide by their SLA's; other mechanisms
might be put in place to deal with overloads. The problem you mention is
not SIP specific at all (which is why network QoS is not addressed in
SIP). What happens if everyone tries to send email? Or enter chat rooms?
Or make H.323 calls?

Given that, there are certainly mechanisms within SIP which allow you to
restrict call volumes, independent of whether there is sufficient
network capacity. A proxy can simply reject calls after the number of
calls through it exceed some maximum, or if the request rate exceeds
some peak. Any criteria, at the discretion of the implementor, can be
used to reject a call. In SIP, the call is rejected by having the server
send a 600 class response. Given that SIP INVITE's usually carry SDP
(which contains media parameters, like codec types and possibly
bandwidth usage), a server could also use this information to try to
restrict "total bandwidth usage" in some abstract, topology independent
definition of the term.

What if there are no servers? What if users try and contact each other
directly? In that case, you will need to make use of network QoS
management techniques. This is also not SIP specific. If two H.323
terminals communicate directly, you'll have the same problem. 

-Jonathan R.
-- 
Jonathan D. Rosenberg                       Lucent Technologies
Member of Technical Staff                   101 Crawfords Corner Rd.
High Speed Networks Research                Holmdel, NJ 07733
FAX:   (732) 834-5379                       Rm. 4C-526
EMAIL: jdrosen@bell-labs.com
URL: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~jdrosen
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Thu Jan 21 23:28:01 1999
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Does anybody know about a commercial terminal adaptor OR an access
gateway for analog phones such that analog signalling such as offhook,
flash, digits (DTMF) etc are converted to appropriate H.225 OR H.245 IP
message (Ex: offhook -> SETUP, hookflash -> H.245 userInputIndication )
?

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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Thu Jan 21 23:35:35 1999
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From: "Paul E. Jones" <paul.jones@ties.itu.int>
To: "Henning Schulzrinne" <hgs@cs.columbia.edu>
Cc: <Hanlin_Fang@3com.com>, "Jonathan Rosenberg" <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>,
        "Aishling" <irelanda@tcd.ie>, <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
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Henning Schulzrinne wrote:
>SIP does not control network resource usage; that's the role of RSVP,
>diff-serv, etc. Indeed, it likely avoids the signaling overload problem
>encountered by traditional PSTN services as it may bypass all but the
>final end system. Since SIP can transmit limited out-of-band data, the
>California earthquake situation would actually handled much more readily
>by SIP:
>
>INVITE joe@sf.ca.us
>From: mary@sj.ca.us
>Subject: I'm fine but all the china is in pieces


It is certainly acceptable to say that SIP should not manage the network
resources given that its function is a "Session Initiation Protocol".  My
question really was directed more at the overall solution, which involves
SIP, than SIP by itself-- and you have answered that question.  However,
there are other, similar questions that need addressing as well.

Are there any efforts going on inside the IETF or in other groups to define
a complete IP telephony solution using SIP?  That is, are there any
documents in existence or under construction that provide guidance to
implementers or service providers that address bandwidth issues, user
location, security, roaming, etc.  Is anyone addressing the issues of lawful
interception or access to emergency services in the SIP environment?

In order to deploy a global IP telephony solution based on SIP and related
technologies, we must have a standard that addresses the "loose ends" that
the protocols by themselves do not.

Best Regards,
Paul



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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Thu Jan 21 23:53:49 1999
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From: Douglas Clowes <dclowes@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: SIP
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At 16:26 1999-01-21 -0500, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote:
>Paul E. Jones wrote:
>> 
>> Imagine this scenario:  an earthquake strikes California.  Everybody in the
>> state and out of the state attempts to place calls in and out of the
>> earthquake zone to check on friends and family.  Today's telephone
equipment
>> will allow a certain number of calls to succeed-- all other attempts will
>> fail due to busy circuits.  With the use of SIP in an IP telephone device,
>> there is nothing (that I can see) that would prevent everyone from
>> attempting to place calls simultaneously.  The end result is that all of
the
>> calls would suffer to the point that nobody could understand anything said
>> on the call.  Something must control the traffic.
>> 
>> Surely the SIP designers have planned for this scenario.  I would love to
>> know how the situation would be handled in a SIP environment.
>
>There are several issues here that are being roled into one. SIP does
>not address network QoS. That is left to other mechanisms, such as RSVP
>and/or diffserv. With RSVP, routers would reject reservations once the
>capacity in a router is reached. With diffserv, border routers will have
>policers to make sure that people abide by their SLA's; other mechanisms
>might be put in place to deal with overloads. The problem you mention is
>not SIP specific at all (which is why network QoS is not addressed in
>SIP). What happens if everyone tries to send email? Or enter chat rooms?
>Or make H.323 calls?

Well, H.323 bandwidth management in the H.323 gatekeeper will come into
play. Of course, it will only limit H.323 calls and all the SIP, email and
chat traffic will make it meaningless.

I expect similar controls, introduced into SIP to have a similar lack of
intended effect.

>
>What if there are no servers? What if users try and contact each other
>directly? In that case, you will need to make use of network QoS
>management techniques. This is also not SIP specific. If two H.323
>terminals communicate directly, you'll have the same problem. 

At least H.323 mandates the use of the gatekeeper, if present.

But Jonathan is absolutely correct. Well, at least relatively correct.

Some sort of bandwidth management, and payload prioritization, is required
to offer some level of control over QoS. That is, and ought to be, outside
of SIP/H.323 and firmly within the underlying transport system which, at
least for H.323 (and I suspect for SIP), can be something other than IP.

As I understand it, and Jonathan will correct me if I'm wrong, RSVP is
supposed to "gurantee" bandwidth, while diffserv will prioritize the
traffic. In the former case, the call should be good or fail while in the
latter, if there is too much "high priority" traffic it will all be bad.

Douglas

>-Jonathan R.
>-- 
>Jonathan D. Rosenberg                       Lucent Technologies
>Member of Technical Staff                   101 Crawfords Corner Rd.
>High Speed Networks Research                Holmdel, NJ 07733
>FAX:   (732) 834-5379                       Rm. 4C-526
>EMAIL: jdrosen@bell-labs.com
>URL: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~jdrosen
>---------
>This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.
>
>

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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Fri Jan 22 00:23:13 1999
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From: Jim Toga <jim.toga@intel.com>
Subject: Re: SIP
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A couple of comments - 

jimt.

At 1/21/99 -0500, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote:
[SNIP]

>There are several issues here that are being roled into one. SIP does
>not address network QoS. That is left to other mechanisms, such as RSVP
>and/or diffserv. With RSVP, routers would reject reservations once the
>capacity in a router is reached. With diffserv, border routers will have
>policers to make sure that people abide by their SLA's; other mechanisms
>might be put in place to deal with overloads. The problem you mention is
>not SIP specific at all (which is why network QoS is not addressed in
>SIP). What happens if everyone tries to send email? Or enter chat rooms?
>Or make H.323 calls?

Call admission by H.323 Gatekeepers can be used in this case to match
provisioning with capacity.   The behaviour might exactly mimic the current
PSTN.

>
[SNIP]


>What if there are no servers? What if users try and contact each other
>directly? In that case, you will need to make use of network QoS
>management techniques. This is also not SIP specific. If two H.323
>terminals communicate directly, you'll have the same problem. 

This is exactly why the standard stipulates that _if_ Gatekeepers are
present, they must be utilized.

>
>-Jonathan R.
>-- 
>Jonathan D. Rosenberg                       Lucent Technologies
>Member of Technical Staff                   101 Crawfords Corner Rd.
>High Speed Networks Research                Holmdel, NJ 07733
>FAX:   (732) 834-5379                       Rm. 4C-526
>EMAIL: jdrosen@bell-labs.com
>URL: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~jdrosen
>---------
>This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.
>
+1-503-264-8816(voice)              Intel - Hillsboro, OR
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Fri Jan 22 00:25:18 1999
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Douglas Clowes wrote:
> 

> 
> Some sort of bandwidth management, and payload prioritization, is required
> to offer some level of control over QoS. That is, and ought to be, outside
> of SIP/H.323 and firmly within the underlying transport system which, at
> least for H.323 (and I suspect for SIP), can be something other than IP.

Transport can be IP, IPX, X.25, PSTN (see the PINT work), ATM or
anything else that has an address of some sort. You may have to define
the address format for SDP carriage, however. Currently, PSTN and IP is
all we got there.

> 
> As I understand it, and Jonathan will correct me if I'm wrong, RSVP is
> supposed to "gurantee" bandwidth, while diffserv will prioritize the
> traffic. In the former case, the call should be good or fail while in the
> latter, if there is too much "high priority" traffic it will all be bad.

With a somewhat more gradual degradation, since you can tolerate
anywhere between 1 and 10% packet loss (more with FEC, but then your
bandwidth goes up) while still being able to communicate.

-- 
Henning Schulzrinne   http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Fri Jan 22 00:59:40 1999
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Paul E. Jones wrote:
> 
> Henning Schulzrinne wrote:
> >SIP does not control network resource usage; that's the role of RSVP,
> >diff-serv, etc. Indeed, it likely avoids the signaling overload problem
> >encountered by traditional PSTN services as it may bypass all but the
> >final end system. Since SIP can transmit limited out-of-band data, the
> >California earthquake situation would actually handled much more readily
> >by SIP:
> >
> >INVITE joe@sf.ca.us
> >From: mary@sj.ca.us
> >Subject: I'm fine but all the china is in pieces
> 
> Are there any efforts going on inside the IETF or in other groups to define
> a complete IP telephony solution using SIP?  That is, are there any
> documents in existence or under construction that provide guidance to
> implementers or service providers that address bandwidth issues, user
> location, security, roaming, etc.  Is anyone addressing the issues of lawful
> interception or access to emergency services in the SIP environment?

Some of these issues are being addressed; SIP itself addresses security,
relying in part on existing mechanisms, such as TLS or IPSEC. User
location is one of the features of SIP; work is going on in the enum
group (not yet a working group) around doing it for telephone numbers. I
know of efforts regarding roaming services and emergency services (a
REALLY hard problem in an Internet context), but nothing at the
standards level.

However, there is currently no IETF effort to specify a "complete
solution" for IP telephony. In general, this is not something IETF does.
It is good at making nice, general purpose, modular protocols, and the
job of putting it all together for a complete solution is something that
the service providers and vendors do, as there is more than one right
way, and it leaves room for growth and value add. 

Seems to have worked so far; there are many applications on the net
which involve a mix of protocols. THe web is certainly one example - it
relies on http, of course, but also on back end directory services for
dynamic content, HTML, Java, Javascript, HTTP-CGI, cache replication
protocols, and lots of media types and plugins. There is no one spec
which tells vendors what to implement in their servers.

> 
> In order to deploy a global IP telephony solution based on SIP and related
> technologies, we must have a standard that addresses the "loose ends" that
> the protocols by themselves do not.

I'm not yet convinced that we "MUST" have such a standard. I agree there
must be solutions to the various component problems, but not all in one,
birthday wrapped solution. Grandiose, all encompassing solutions have a
bad habit of never making it.

-Jonathan R.

-- 
Jonathan D. Rosenberg                       Lucent Technologies
Member of Technical Staff                   101 Crawfords Corner Rd.
High Speed Networks Research                Holmdel, NJ 07733
FAX: (732) 834-5379                         Rm. 4C-526
EMAIL: jdrosen@bell-labs.com
URL: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~jdrosen
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Fri Jan 22 01:55:15 1999
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Jim Toga wrote:
> 
> >There are several issues here that are being roled into one. SIP does
> >not address network QoS. That is left to other mechanisms, such as RSVP
> >and/or diffserv. With RSVP, routers would reject reservations once the
> >capacity in a router is reached. With diffserv, border routers will have
> >policers to make sure that people abide by their SLA's; other mechanisms
> >might be put in place to deal with overloads. The problem you mention is
> >not SIP specific at all (which is why network QoS is not addressed in
> >SIP). What happens if everyone tries to send email? Or enter chat rooms?
> >Or make H.323 calls?
> 
> Call admission by H.323 Gatekeepers can be used in this case to match
> provisioning with capacity.   The behaviour might exactly mimic the current
> PSTN.

SIP servers can also do "admission control", by rejecting requests (see
my previous message). So, whatever logic you have behind the admission
decisions in RAS, you could put in a SIP server too. However, its not
clear how either a SIP server or H.323 gatekeeper would be able to
actually make a decision which mimics the PSTN. In the PSTN, the
circuits flow through the switch which makes the admission decision, and
the switch sees every setup message for a circuit that goes through it.
In the Internet, media doesn't flow through gatekeepers or SIP servers,
and neither will have knowledge of network topologies or other
applications. So, if there is lots of web traffic on an intranet, I
don't really see how a single application specific box could know how
much bandwidth is actually available on all links between a caller and
callee. Only routers can do that, and thats why QoS control is done with
things like RSVP and diffserv.

> >What if there are no servers? What if users try and contact each other
> >directly? In that case, you will need to make use of network QoS
> >management techniques. This is also not SIP specific. If two H.323
> >terminals communicate directly, you'll have the same problem.
> 
> This is exactly why the standard stipulates that _if_ Gatekeepers are
> present, they must be utilized.

Question: besides the specification, what prevents a client from
ignoring them anyway? A big theme on another thread has been that
clients often disobey or misimplement portions of a spec. IP is IP, and
two hosts with globally routable IP addresses can always communicate.
Seems like a bullet item for a feature in fact: no call rejections - the
user's software just tries to call the other user directly, ignoring the
admission rejections.

-Jonathan R.
-- 
Jonathan D. Rosenberg                       Lucent Technologies
Member of Technical Staff                   101 Crawfords Corner Rd.
High Speed Networks Research                Holmdel, NJ 07733
FAX: (732) 834-5379                         Rm. 4C-526
EMAIL: jdrosen@bell-labs.com
URL: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~jdrosen
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Fri Jan 22 01:56:46 1999
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Douglas Clowes wrote:
> 
> >There are several issues here that are being roled into one. SIP does
> >not address network QoS. That is left to other mechanisms, such as RSVP
> >and/or diffserv. With RSVP, routers would reject reservations once the
> >capacity in a router is reached. With diffserv, border routers will have
> >policers to make sure that people abide by their SLA's; other mechanisms
> >might be put in place to deal with overloads. The problem you mention is
> >not SIP specific at all (which is why network QoS is not addressed in
> >SIP). What happens if everyone tries to send email? Or enter chat rooms?
> >Or make H.323 calls?
> 
> Well, H.323 bandwidth management in the H.323 gatekeeper will come into
> play. Of course, it will only limit H.323 calls and all the SIP, email and
> chat traffic will make it meaningless.
> 
> I expect similar controls, introduced into SIP to have a similar lack of
> intended effect.

Yup. Controls in a SIP server are good for localized policy decisions,
(Joe can't make video calls), but for decisions based on global network
state - well, thats really not feasible.


> Some sort of bandwidth management, and payload prioritization, is required
> to offer some level of control over QoS. That is, and ought to be, outside
> of SIP/H.323 and firmly within the underlying transport system which, at
> least for H.323 (and I suspect for SIP), can be something other than IP.
> 
> As I understand it, and Jonathan will correct me if I'm wrong, RSVP is
> supposed to "gurantee" bandwidth, while diffserv will prioritize the
> traffic. In the former case, the call should be good or fail while in the
> latter, if there is too much "high priority" traffic it will all be bad.

Actually, its not if there's too much high priority, its if the amount
of high priority traffic reaches link bandwidths. If you implement the
EF PHB using a priority queue, and you expect on average 10% of the
network bandwidth to be voice (which the ISP marks as EF), in an
absolute catastrophe there is still 90% of the bandwidth left that the
priority queue could usurp. If a priority queue isn't used it might be
less. So, in a network with lots more data traffic than voice, things
might work quite nicely - except for the poor folks trying to send email
:)

-Jonathan R.

-- 
Jonathan D. Rosenberg                       Lucent Technologies
Member of Technical Staff                   101 Crawfords Corner Rd.
High Speed Networks Research                Holmdel, NJ 07733
FAX: (732) 834-5379                         Rm. 4C-526
EMAIL: jdrosen@bell-labs.com
URL: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~jdrosen
---------
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Fri Jan 22 02:18:12 1999
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From: Guocai Deng <denggc@asiainfo.com>
To: Sujatha Balaraman <sujathab@ece.ucdavis.edu>,
        Jonathan Rosenberg
	 <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>
Cc: xmzhao <xmzhao@990.net>, iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
Subject: RE: IP Telphony Gateway Pricing
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:01:30 +0800
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Dear Sujatha,

     I think that pricing is Gatekeeper-Centered instead of
Gateway-Centered. Whenever IP User or PSTN user to use IP telephone,  they
must pay for some QoS calling. 

     Current vendors mainly offer a solution with one-tier pricing model, i.
e. one Operation Center Offer traffic table about all Gateway or Gatekeeper.
There is a serious scabability problem. 

     I think that pricing need leaf-gatekeepers to negotiate during
Capability-Exchanging. Pricing procedure should result some info about
Fee/QoS, the settlement Point( Accouting Server). These info can be arranged
in Tree-Table format.

     But I am not sure how those affect the performance and traffic.

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Sujatha Balaraman [SMTP:sujathab@ece.ucdavis.edu]
	Sent:	Friday, January 22, 1999 3:51 AM
	To:	Jonathan Rosenberg
	Cc:	xmzhao; iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
	Subject: 	IP Telphony Gateway Pricing


	Hi,
		I"m trying to formulate a pricing model for the Telephony
Gateway
	based on QOS offered. I am pretty confused on the type of topology
to use
	to simulate the same. Does anyone out there have any idea on the
type of
	topology/traffic to simulate to test the same. Can you also suggest
any
	papers which study Gateway Location and pricing using simulation
results
	with description of simulation model.

	Thanks
	Sujatha. 

	
****************************************************************************
**
	Sujatha Balaraman              *  Networks Lab
				       *  UC Davis.
				       *  e-mail :sujathab@ece.ucdavis.edu
	609, Anderson Road             *          sbalaraman@ucdavis.edu
	Apt: 287,                      *    
	Davis                          *   Ph: 530-750-3897
	CA  95616                      *      
	
****************************************************************************
***


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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Fri Jan 22 02:56:55 1999
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From: Douglas Clowes <dclowes@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: SIP
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At 20:09 1999-01-21 -0500, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote:
>Paul E. Jones wrote:
>> 
>> Are there any efforts going on inside the IETF or in other groups to define
>> a complete IP telephony solution using SIP?  That is, are there any
>> documents in existence or under construction that provide guidance to
>> implementers or service providers that address bandwidth issues, user
>> location, security, roaming, etc.  Is anyone addressing the issues of
lawful
>> interception or access to emergency services in the SIP environment?
>
>Some of these issues are being addressed; SIP itself addresses security,
>relying in part on existing mechanisms, such as TLS or IPSEC. User
>location is one of the features of SIP; work is going on in the enum
>group (not yet a working group) around doing it for telephone numbers. I
>know of efforts regarding roaming services and emergency services (a
>REALLY hard problem in an Internet context), but nothing at the
>standards level.
>
>However, there is currently no IETF effort to specify a "complete
>solution" for IP telephony. In general, this is not something IETF does.
>It is good at making nice, general purpose, modular protocols, and the
>job of putting it all together for a complete solution is something that
>the service providers and vendors do, as there is more than one right
>way, and it leaves room for growth and value add. 

And there are any number of almost, but not quite, entirely
non-interoperable implementations. While there is more than one way that
might be right, there are far more that are not right.
Product-differentiation, market-fragmentation, or customer-lockin: call it
what you will.

>Seems to have worked so far; there are many applications on the net
>which involve a mix of protocols. THe web is certainly one example - it
>relies on http, of course, but also on back end directory services for
>dynamic content, HTML, Java, Javascript, HTTP-CGI, cache replication
>protocols, and lots of media types and plugins. There is no one spec
>which tells vendors what to implement in their servers.

And there are so many ways that these things can and do break. With the
latest browser version available, I still got a site that told me my
browser was too old and I should get an update before I come back. It breaks.


>> 
>> In order to deploy a global IP telephony solution based on SIP and related
>> technologies, we must have a standard that addresses the "loose ends" that
>> the protocols by themselves do not.
>
>I'm not yet convinced that we "MUST" have such a standard. I agree there
>must be solutions to the various component problems, but not all in one,
>birthday wrapped solution. Grandiose, all encompassing solutions have a
>bad habit of never making it.

The solution seems to be the "Implementation Agreement" where, instead of
the standards body picking and choosing, a group of vendors, implementors,
or customers (or all three) get together and make the choices. Sometimes
each group gets together separately and we get three or more IAs.

IMTC has an IA on VoIP telephony. ETSI TIPHON is a selection and tightening
of the standards. There's also iNOW! and TIPIA. And some others that escape
me ...

From the box builder's POV, he wants to build boxes with any damn standard
he want to, and update to the latest protocols to remain "whiz bang". From
the box buyers POV, he wnats to buy boxes from different vendors and have
them work in his existing installation. He doesn't want to find that of the
two new boxes he bought, one uses RADIUS while the other one, with the
higher serial number uses DIAMETER and that neither works with the same
models he bought last year from the same vendor that use TACACS+.

Some people want to sell boxes. Some people want to buy systems.

Douglas

>-Jonathan R.
>
>-- 
>Jonathan D. Rosenberg                       Lucent Technologies
>Member of Technical Staff                   101 Crawfords Corner Rd.
>High Speed Networks Research                Holmdel, NJ 07733
>FAX: (732) 834-5379                         Rm. 4C-526
>EMAIL: jdrosen@bell-labs.com
>URL: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~jdrosen
>---------
>This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.
>
>

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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Fri Jan 22 03:25:12 1999
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From: Douglas Clowes <dclowes@ozemail.com.au>
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>Question: besides the specification, what prevents a client from
>ignoring them anyway? A big theme on another thread has been that
>clients often disobey or misimplement portions of a spec. IP is IP, and
>two hosts with globally routable IP addresses can always communicate.
>Seems like a bullet item for a feature in fact: no call rejections - the
>user's software just tries to call the other user directly, ignoring the
>admission rejections.
>
>-Jonathan R.

Of course, if it doesn't implement the spec, it doesn't conform to the spec.

People could ignore the standards and implement their own protocol. I think
that's happened before. Once or twice.

Let's see now, a firewall with proxies that only let through known
protocols and check with the gatekeeper for H.323 admission. Scarey!

Regards,

Douglas

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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Fri Jan 22 03:27:12 1999
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Douglas Clowes wrote:
> 
> >From the box builder's POV, he wants to build boxes with any damn standard
> he want to, and update to the latest protocols to remain "whiz bang". From
> the box buyers POV, he wnats to buy boxes from different vendors and have
> them work in his existing installation. He doesn't want to find that of the
> two new boxes he bought, one uses RADIUS while the other one, with the
> higher serial number uses DIAMETER and that neither works with the same
> models he bought last year from the same vendor that use TACACS+.
>

Sure. That's why some of us (from multiple vendors) are working hard
toward a single standard protocol that can provide accounting,
authentication and admission control for many emerging internet
applications (IP telephony included). Actually, some of us are not
interested in "whiz bang", rather the market itself.
 
> Some people want to sell boxes. Some people want to buy systems.
> 

Yep, we want to sell the boxes now so that the customers can get into
the service games as soon as possible. As the protocol and development
evolving, the sellers can always send software versions to keep the
customers up to date.

> Douglas
> 

Regards,

--
Ping Pan    phone: (732)-332-6744   fax: (732)-834-5379
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Fri Jan 22 09:26:51 1999
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Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 04:29:11 -0500 (EST)
From: John Kristoff <jkristof@interaccess.com>
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,comp.dcom.sys.cisco,comp.dcom.telecom.tech,comp.protocols.tcp-ip,alt.dcom.telecom.ip
Subject: RFD: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip
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                     REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
              unmoderated group comp.dcom.voice-over-ip

This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the creation of the
Voice Over IP group in the comp.dcom.* hierarchy.  This is not a Call
for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time.  Procedural details
are below.

Newsgroups line:
comp.dcom.voice-over-ip	Voice Over IP technology.

RATIONALE: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip

Voice Over IP is a burgeoning technology which is bringing real-time,
interactive voice communications to end users via the underlying
protocol of the Internet, namely the Internet Protocol (IP).

Discussions in other mailing lists and newsgroups seem to warrant
the creation of a generic Voice Over IP newsgroup (see the ITMC
Voice Over IP mailing list archives and alt.dcom.telecom.ip).

The IETF, IMTC, and ETSI each run a mailing list in which the focus
is on developing technical standards.  This in depth focus is
primarily of interest only to developers and manufacturers.

While interest, trials and products in this field are racing ahead at
a phenomenal pace, a plethora of issues such as quality of service,
support, cost provisioning, capacity management, standards,
implementation and legacy system integration are areas that will
always need serious attention.

The comp.dcom.voice-over-ip group will be free from any limits or
narrow focus of a single organization's mailing list.  Further, the
comp.dcom.voice-over-ip newsgroup will allow the above aforementioned
issues to be discussed without the control of a governing body.

A recent search for the phrase "voice over ip" turned up over 6500
web pages at <www.altavista.com>.  Even the relatively new acronym
"voip" turned up 2400 documents from the dejanews archives dating
from January 1, 1998 to December 15, 1998.

In some of the comp.* newsgroups that occasionally discuss Voice
Over IP technology, there can easily be hundreds of messages a day.
A separate group dedicated to just this topic would be significantly
more manageable for those only interested in Voice Over IP technology.
See the comp.dcom.sys.cisco and comp.dcom.telecom.tech newsgroups for
an idea of the discussions taking placing.

In the interest of helping to bring together the researchers, network
managers, developers and others simply curious about the technology,
a new newsgroup with a Voice Over IP focus is proposed.

CHARTER: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip

The comp.dcom.voice-over-ip newsgroup is intended to foster the
communication among users, managers, developers and researchers of
Voice Over IP technology.  All layers of the network model from the
physical layer on up to the applications layer are applicable items
of discussion for this newsgroup.  Topics may include, but are not
limited to Voice Over IP issues such as the following:

o General questions about Voice Over IP
o Voice Over IP network architecture
o Deployment of Voice Over IP networks
o Managing Voice Over IP networks
o Standards and Specifications

The posting of binaries to comp.dcom.voice-over-ip is prohibited.

The posting of employment opportunities to comp.dcom.voice-over-ip
is prohibited.

Announcements of new products or services related to Voice Over IP
technology will be tolerated in comp.dcom.voice-over-ip.

comp.dcom.voice-over-ip will not be moderated.

END CHARTER.

PROCEDURE:

This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes.  In this phase
of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroup
should be raised and resolved.  The discussion period will continue
for a minimum of 21 days (starting from when the first RFD for this
proposal is posted to news.announce.newgroups), after which a Call For
Votes (CFV) will be posted by a neutral vote taker.  Please do not
attempt to vote until this happens.

All discussion of this proposal should be posted to news.groups.

This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet newsgroup creation
guidelines outlined in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and "How
to Format and Submit a New Group Proposal".  Please refer to these
documents (available in news.announce.newgroups) if you have any
questions about the process.

DISTRIBUTION:

This RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:

  news.announce.newgroups, news.groups,
  comp.dcom.sys.cisco,comp.dcom.telecom.tech,
  comp.protocols.tcp-ip
  alt.dcom.telecom.ip

and the following mailing lists:

  voip@imtc.org (International Multimedia Teleconferencing Consortium)
      subscribe via majordomo@imtc.org
  tiphon@list.etsi.fr (European Telecommunications Standard Institute)
      subscribe via listserv@list.etsi.fr
  iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com (Internet Engineering Task Force)
      subscribe via iptel-request@lists.research.bell-labs.com

and the following web page:

  http://homepage.interaccess.com/~jkristof/voip-rfd.txt

Proponent: John Kristoff <jkristof@interaccess.com>
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Fri Jan 22 12:48:29 1999
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From: Francois Menard Distribution List Management Account
	 <fm-listproc@mediatrix.com>
To: "'Douglas Clowes'" <dclowes@ozemail.com.au>,
        Jonathan Rosenberg
	 <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>,
        Jim Toga <jim.toga@intel.com>
Cc: "Paul E. Jones" <paul.jones@ties.itu.int>, Hanlin_Fang@3com.com,
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> Let's see now, a firewall with proxies that only let through known
protocols and check with the gatekeeper for H.323 admission. Scarey!

No no, 

The whole H.323 hypothesis is that you can control the end-points and force
them to use a given gatekeeper.  This is as long as the end-users are not
capable of figuring out how to change the config of the end-points to bypass
the GK...

I've always maintained that on the Internet, it is not because you route a
call that you can bill for it.

In H.323 on the Internet, you can bill for:

1. QOS for all apps at the same time on the host
2. PSTN access through a metered H.323 PSTN gateway
3. Apps on GKs. (i.e. there is some value in a GK translating a phone number
to a dynamic IP address)

So I do not believe that basic H.RAS stuff actually makes it possible to
derive a bill.  GK-routed call models are a billing mechanism, not a
bandwidth preserving thing.  So IMHO, by definition, it is only possible as
long as you can force the end-points to collaborate.

Same for a SIP server-routed call models too.  But then, SIP makes no
assumption about the rationality of SIP-server call routed models to create
illusions about the real problems of IP telephony.

-=Francois=-



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Subject: Re: SIP
References: <02ea01be4596$160638b0$aec965c0@pjones.databeam.com> <3.0.3.32.19990122135730.015a62ac@mail.ozemail.com.au>
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Douglas Clowes wrote:
> 

> And there are any number of almost, but not quite, entirely
> non-interoperable implementations. While there is more than one way that
> might be right, there are far more that are not right.
> Product-differentiation, market-fragmentation, or customer-lockin: call it
> what you will.

There may well be value in agreements beyond protocol specs. However,
there's often the suspicion that many of these industry bodies are
clean-up crews for standards that could have been clearer, been based on
more implementation experience or more layered/modular to begin with.
The abundance of these organizations also raises the cost of entry, so
they are probably at best a necessary evil, not a model to strive for.
Note also that the traditional telecom world is hardly a model to
emulate here, if you recall trivial things like the number of different
phone plugs, dialing plans or ringing patterns (see a previous
discussion on rem-conf) in the world or the number of ISUP/TUP/other
signaling variants. At least email and web access from India to the US
works without gateways and translators and interoperability agreements
and I don't have to be certified as compliant in each of those countries
:-)


-- 
Henning Schulzrinne   http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Fri Jan 22 15:18:04 1999
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Reply-To: <James.Verlare@mci.com>
From: "James Verlare" <James.Verlare@mci.com>
To: "'Jim Toga'" <jim.toga@intel.com>
Cc: <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
Subject: RE: SIP
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 07:17:18 -0700
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It seems to me that the answer lies in GateKeepers that provide admission
control with the help of external network monitoring serives.  RSVP is
responsible for capacity from segment to segment, diffserv for prioritizing
up to the last 100 meters, end stations NIC drivers in comnination with
diffserv determine CoS for that end station.  An external load monitoring
service keeps the GateKeeper informed so it can respond intelligently to
admission requests.

JLV.


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
[mailto:owner-iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com]On Behalf Of Jonathan
Rosenberg
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 7:03 PM
To: Jim Toga
Cc: Paul E. Jones; Hanlin_Fang@3com.com; Aishling;
iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com; confctrl@isi.edu
Subject: Re: SIP


Jim Toga wrote:
>
> >There are several issues here that are being roled into one. SIP does
> >not address network QoS. That is left to other mechanisms, such as RSVP
> >and/or diffserv. With RSVP, routers would reject reservations once the
> >capacity in a router is reached. With diffserv, border routers will have
> >policers to make sure that people abide by their SLA's; other mechanisms
> >might be put in place to deal with overloads. The problem you mention is
> >not SIP specific at all (which is why network QoS is not addressed in
> >SIP). What happens if everyone tries to send email? Or enter chat rooms?
> >Or make H.323 calls?
>
> Call admission by H.323 Gatekeepers can be used in this case to match
> provisioning with capacity.   The behaviour might exactly mimic the
current
> PSTN.

SIP servers can also do "admission control", by rejecting requests (see
my previous message). So, whatever logic you have behind the admission
decisions in RAS, you could put in a SIP server too. However, its not
clear how either a SIP server or H.323 gatekeeper would be able to
actually make a decision which mimics the PSTN. In the PSTN, the
circuits flow through the switch which makes the admission decision, and
the switch sees every setup message for a circuit that goes through it.
In the Internet, media doesn't flow through gatekeepers or SIP servers,
and neither will have knowledge of network topologies or other
applications. So, if there is lots of web traffic on an intranet, I
don't really see how a single application specific box could know how
much bandwidth is actually available on all links between a caller and
callee. Only routers can do that, and thats why QoS control is done with
things like RSVP and diffserv.

> >What if there are no servers? What if users try and contact each other
> >directly? In that case, you will need to make use of network QoS
> >management techniques. This is also not SIP specific. If two H.323
> >terminals communicate directly, you'll have the same problem.
>
> This is exactly why the standard stipulates that _if_ Gatekeepers are
> present, they must be utilized.

Question: besides the specification, what prevents a client from
ignoring them anyway? A big theme on another thread has been that
clients often disobey or misimplement portions of a spec. IP is IP, and
two hosts with globally routable IP addresses can always communicate.
Seems like a bullet item for a feature in fact: no call rejections - the
user's software just tries to call the other user directly, ignoring the
admission rejections.

-Jonathan R.
--
Jonathan D. Rosenberg                       Lucent Technologies
Member of Technical Staff                   101 Crawfords Corner Rd.
High Speed Networks Research                Holmdel, NJ 07733
FAX: (732) 834-5379                         Rm. 4C-526
EMAIL: jdrosen@bell-labs.com
URL: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~jdrosen
---------
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Fri Jan 22 19:32:44 1999
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One more question about the management capability of SIP and H.323: Even
SIP can use RSVP for some QoS issues. For conference control, SIP can do
nothing, right? Without MC in H.323, SIP endpoints actually don't get any
control information about the conference they are attending, right?  Or
RSVP also can be used for this purpose?

Thanks for any comments!

Hanlin




"Paul E. Jones" <paul.jones@ties.itu.int> on 01/21/99 12:45:13 PM

To:   Hanlin Fang/HQ/3Com, "Jonathan Rosenberg"
      <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>
cc:   "Aishling" <irelanda@tcd.ie>, iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
Subject:  Re: SIP




Hanlin,

This is one of the very issues that I have struggled with.  In the Internet
environment, protocols consume bandwidth as they need.  Latency can be
high,
but it is tolerable.  The idea of introducing voice and video into the IP
network means that there must be some control over the bandwidth, otherwise
the quality of the call (if the call can be placed at all) will suffer.

Imagine this scenario:  an earthquake strikes California.  Everybody in the
state and out of the state attempts to place calls in and out of the
earthquake zone to check on friends and family.  Today's telephone
equipment
will allow a certain number of calls to succeed-- all other attempts will
fail due to busy circuits.  With the use of SIP in an IP telephone device,
there is nothing (that I can see) that would prevent everyone from
attempting to place calls simultaneously.  The end result is that all of
the
calls would suffer to the point that nobody could understand anything said
on the call.  Something must control the traffic.

Surely the SIP designers have planned for this scenario.  I would love to
know how the situation would be handled in a SIP environment.

Best Regards,
Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: Hanlin_Fang@3com.com <Hanlin_Fang@3com.com>
To: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>
Cc: Aishling <irelanda@tcd.ie>; iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
<iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 12:34 AM
Subject: Re: SIP


>My question is that: if you don't use proxy server in SIP, how can you get
>control and management capability comparing with H.323 gatekeeper system?
>If you use proxy server model, is there any significant difference between
>H.323 and SIP?
>Thanks for any comments!
>
>Hanlin
>
>
>---------
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Thursday January 21st,

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	All other  250-712-9425

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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Fri Jan 22 20:36:51 1999
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From: "Henry Sinnreich" <henry.sinnreich@mci.com>
To: "Guocai Deng" <denggc@asiainfo.com>,
        "Sujatha Balaraman" <sujathab@ece.ucdavis.edu>,
        "Jonathan Rosenberg" <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>
Cc: "xmzhao" <xmzhao@990.net>, <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
Subject: RE: IP Telphony Gateway Pricing
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:59:32 -0500
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>      I think that pricing is Gatekeeper-Centered instead of
> Gateway-Centered. Whenever IP User or PSTN user to use IP telephone,  they
> must pay for some QoS calling.

This is an interesting problem. Billing data and call admission can be done
in the gateway controller, be it a call agent, SIP server, or H.323
gatekeeper, but these devices do not control QoS in the network nor do they
guarantee QoS. Let's use the term call agent. The call agent has first to
check with a policy server and also to find out if the QoS is indeed
provided by the transport layer, the routers and L2 elements underneath,
before charging for QoS. Would need actually to develop sort of a "call
flow" showing the interactions between the client requesting a call, the
call agent requesting QOS from the policy server, the reponses and exception
handling.

Any thoughts on the message exchange regarding QoS for a call and for policy
decision (PDP and PEP - policy decision point and policy enforcement point)
and enforcement ?
See http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-strassner-policy-terms-00.txt
Or can it be done in a simpler way, without requiring the tight coupling
envisaged above?

Thanks, Henry


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
> [mailto:owner-iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com]On Behalf Of Guocai
> Deng
> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 10:02 PM
> To: Sujatha Balaraman; Jonathan Rosenberg
> Cc: xmzhao; iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
> Subject: RE: IP Telphony Gateway Pricing
>
>
> Dear Sujatha,
>
>      I think that pricing is Gatekeeper-Centered instead of
> Gateway-Centered. Whenever IP User or PSTN user to use IP telephone,  they
> must pay for some QoS calling.
>
>      Current vendors mainly offer a solution with one-tier
> pricing model, i.
> e. one Operation Center Offer traffic table about all Gateway or
> Gatekeeper.
> There is a serious scabability problem.
>
>      I think that pricing need leaf-gatekeepers to negotiate during
> Capability-Exchanging. Pricing procedure should result some info about
> Fee/QoS, the settlement Point( Accouting Server). These info can
> be arranged
> in Tree-Table format.
>
>      But I am not sure how those affect the performance and traffic.
>
> 	-----Original Message-----
> 	From:	Sujatha Balaraman [SMTP:sujathab@ece.ucdavis.edu]
> 	Sent:	Friday, January 22, 1999 3:51 AM
> 	To:	Jonathan Rosenberg
> 	Cc:	xmzhao; iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
> 	Subject: 	IP Telphony Gateway Pricing
>
>
> 	Hi,
> 		I"m trying to formulate a pricing model for the Telephony
> Gateway
> 	based on QOS offered. I am pretty confused on the type of topology
> to use
> 	to simulate the same. Does anyone out there have any idea on the
> type of
> 	topology/traffic to simulate to test the same. Can you also suggest
> any
> 	papers which study Gateway Location and pricing using simulation
> results
> 	with description of simulation model.
>
> 	Thanks
> 	Sujatha.
>
>
> ******************************************************************
> **********
> **
> 	Sujatha Balaraman              *  Networks Lab
> 				       *  UC Davis.
> 				       *  e-mail :sujathab@ece.ucdavis.edu
> 	609, Anderson Road             *          sbalaraman@ucdavis.edu
> 	Apt: 287,                      *
> 	Davis                          *   Ph: 530-750-3897
> 	CA  95616                      *
>
> ******************************************************************
> **********
> ***
>
>
> 	---------
> 	This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.
> ---------
> This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.
>

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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Fri Jan 22 20:40:06 1999
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From: "Henry Sinnreich" <henry.sinnreich@mci.com>
To: "Douglas Clowes" <dclowes@ozemail.com.au>,
        "Jonathan Rosenberg" <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>,
        "Paul E. Jones" <paul.jones@ties.itu.int>
Cc: "Henning Schulzrinne" <hgs@cs.columbia.edu>, <Hanlin_Fang@3com.com>,
        "Aishling" <irelanda@tcd.ie>, <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>,
        <confctrl@isi.edu>
Subject: RE: SIP
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:59:36 -0500
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Douglas writes:
> The solution seems to be the "Implementation Agreement" where, instead of
> the standards body picking and choosing, a group of vendors, implementors,
> or customers (or all three) get together and make the choices. Sometimes
> each group gets together separately and we get three or more IAs.

We exchange here e-mail and web pages by using IETF standard protocols. Am
not aware that our applications, whatever they are, went through implementor
agreements and the like.

Henry

> IMTC has an IA on VoIP telephony. ETSI TIPHON is a selection and
> tightening
> of the standards. There's also iNOW! and TIPIA. And some others
> that escape
> me ...
>
> From the box builder's POV, he wants to build boxes with any damn standard
> he want to, and update to the latest protocols to remain "whiz bang". From
> the box buyers POV, he wnats to buy boxes from different vendors and have
> them work in his existing installation. He doesn't want to find
> that of the
> two new boxes he bought, one uses RADIUS while the other one, with the
> higher serial number uses DIAMETER and that neither works with the same
> models he bought last year from the same vendor that use TACACS+.
>
> Some people want to sell boxes. Some people want to buy systems.
>
> Douglas
>
> >-Jonathan R.
> >
> >--
> >Jonathan D. Rosenberg                       Lucent Technologies
> >Member of Technical Staff                   101 Crawfords Corner Rd.
> >High Speed Networks Research                Holmdel, NJ 07733
> >FAX: (732) 834-5379                         Rm. 4C-526
> >EMAIL: jdrosen@bell-labs.com
> >URL: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~jdrosen
> >---------
> >This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.
> >
> >
>
> ---------
> This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.
>

---------
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Fri Jan 22 22:08:34 1999
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Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:49:11 -0800 (PST)
From: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Reply-To: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: RE: IP Telphony Gateway Pricing
To: Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@mci.com>
Cc: Guocai Deng <denggc@asiainfo.com>,
        Sujatha Balaraman <sujathab@ece.ucdavis.edu>,
        Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>,
        xmzhao <xmzhao@990.net>, iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
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> >      I think that pricing is Gatekeeper-Centered instead of
> > Gateway-Centered. Whenever IP User or PSTN user to use IP telephone,  they
> > must pay for some QoS calling.
> 
> This is an interesting problem. Billing data and call admission can be done
> in the gateway controller, be it a call agent, SIP server, or H.323
> gatekeeper, but these devices do not control QoS in the network nor do they
> guarantee QoS. Let's use the term call agent. The call agent has first to
> check with a policy server and also to find out if the QoS is indeed
> provided by the transport layer, the routers and L2 elements underneath,
> before charging for QoS. Would need actually to develop sort of a "call
> flow" showing the interactions between the client requesting a call, the
> call agent requesting QOS from the policy server, the reponses and exception
> handling.

Presumably, when the policy engine is asked to authenticate and authorize the
user, it can determine whether QOS is required for the user. The Policy Server
can then "push" the QOS information to the network.

This is one of the reasons why an AAA protocol must be able to allow the
server to send unsolicited messages down to the clients.

PatC
> 
> Any thoughts on the message exchange regarding QoS for a call and for policy
> decision (PDP and PEP - policy decision point and policy enforcement point)
> and enforcement ?
> See http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-strassner-policy-terms-00.txt
> Or can it be done in a simpler way, without requiring the tight coupling
> envisaged above?
> 
> Thanks, Henry
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
> > [mailto:owner-iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com]On Behalf Of Guocai
> > Deng
> > Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 10:02 PM
> > To: Sujatha Balaraman; Jonathan Rosenberg
> > Cc: xmzhao; iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
> > Subject: RE: IP Telphony Gateway Pricing
> >
> >
> > Dear Sujatha,
> >
> >      I think that pricing is Gatekeeper-Centered instead of
> > Gateway-Centered. Whenever IP User or PSTN user to use IP telephone,  they
> > must pay for some QoS calling.
> >
> >      Current vendors mainly offer a solution with one-tier
> > pricing model, i.
> > e. one Operation Center Offer traffic table about all Gateway or
> > Gatekeeper.
> > There is a serious scabability problem.
> >
> >      I think that pricing need leaf-gatekeepers to negotiate during
> > Capability-Exchanging. Pricing procedure should result some info about
> > Fee/QoS, the settlement Point( Accouting Server). These info can
> > be arranged
> > in Tree-Table format.
> >
> >      But I am not sure how those affect the performance and traffic.
> >
> > 	-----Original Message-----
> > 	From:	Sujatha Balaraman [SMTP:sujathab@ece.ucdavis.edu]
> > 	Sent:	Friday, January 22, 1999 3:51 AM
> > 	To:	Jonathan Rosenberg
> > 	Cc:	xmzhao; iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
> > 	Subject: 	IP Telphony Gateway Pricing
> >
> >
> > 	Hi,
> > 		I"m trying to formulate a pricing model for the Telephony
> > Gateway
> > 	based on QOS offered. I am pretty confused on the type of topology
> > to use
> > 	to simulate the same. Does anyone out there have any idea on the
> > type of
> > 	topology/traffic to simulate to test the same. Can you also suggest
> > any
> > 	papers which study Gateway Location and pricing using simulation
> > results
> > 	with description of simulation model.
> >
> > 	Thanks
> > 	Sujatha.
> >
> >
> > ******************************************************************
> > **********
> > **
> > 	Sujatha Balaraman              *  Networks Lab
> > 				       *  UC Davis.
> > 				       *  e-mail :sujathab@ece.ucdavis.edu
> > 	609, Anderson Road             *          sbalaraman@ucdavis.edu
> > 	Apt: 287,                      *
> > 	Davis                          *   Ph: 530-750-3897
> > 	CA  95616                      *
> >
> > ******************************************************************
> > **********
> > ***
> >
> >
> > 	---------
> > 	This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.
> > ---------
> > This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.
> >
> 
> ---------
> This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.


---------
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Fri Jan 22 22:53:21 1999
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From: "Paul E. Jones" <paul.jones@ties.itu.int>
To: "Henry Sinnreich" <henry.sinnreich@mci.com>,
        "Douglas Clowes" <dclowes@ozemail.com.au>,
        "Jonathan Rosenberg" <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>
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Henry Sinnreich  wrote:

>Douglas writes:
>> The solution seems to be the "Implementation Agreement" where, instead of
>> the standards body picking and choosing, a group of vendors,
implementors,
>> or customers (or all three) get together and make the choices. Sometimes
>> each group gets together separately and we get three or more IAs.
>
>We exchange here e-mail and web pages by using IETF standard protocols. Am
>not aware that our applications, whatever they are, went through
implementor
>agreements and the like.
>


But even mail and web services are not without problems.  Take a web browser
written in 1995 and visit some of today's more elaborate web sites.  Create
an e-mail with Microsoft's Outlook Express using HTML and send it to a user
with a mail client written in 1995 (heck, send it to a Netscape user with
up-to-date software).

It is true that most of today's mail clients can understand SMTP, POP3,
IMAP, HTML, MIME, etc.  It is also true that most of today's web browsers
can support HTML 4.0, CSS, GIF, JPG, PNG, WAV, AU, MPEG, RealAudio, etc.
However, it has not been without pain on the users-- they have had to
upgrade their software every time a new "whiz-bang" feature was added.  Be
prepared to upgrade your web browsers again soon as XML and XSL displace
much of HTML and CSS and MP3 becomes a new important audio format on the
web.

We cannot and should not expect our telephone system to act this way.

People will be investing billions of dollars into IP telephony solutions--
they had better talk to each other.  We must agree on how to authorize users
when delivering calls to gateways.  We must agree on how to locate users or
resolve addresses.  We must agree on QoS issues (use RSVP?), billing,
roaming, access to emergency services, etc., etc.

When I go to the store to by my IP phone, bring it home, and plug it into my
hub, it should allow me to dial my grandmother's phone number and her phone
should ring.  The mechanics of accomplishing that are complex, and we must
have agreements on how that should be done at every step of the way.  In
addition, I expect that my IP telephone will continue to work for more than
four years.

Creating an "Implementation Agreement" as Douglas suggests is not a bad
idea.  It was not necessary with other protocols because they were simple,
the implementations were software-based and free (so cost was no issue), and
developed without interest from parties investing billions of dollars.  The
last point is the key-- when people spend billions of dollars, they expect
it to work.  Specifying a bunch of loosely related protocols and letting
people build several implementations, picking and choosing incompatible
components to address requirements, and waiting to see which one is
"coolest" and declaring it the winning combination will not work in the IP
telephony space.

Best Regards,
Paul



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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Sat Jan 23 00:01:50 1999
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Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:35:33 -0800
To: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
From: Jim Toga <jim.toga@intel.com>
Subject: RE: IP Telphony Gateway Pricing
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This is one of the reasons that the admission request in H.323 has a
generic QOS flag to indicate client or GK control. (Subsequent to that some
form of RSVP or its ilk occurs along with SBM or some other policy engine....)

jimt.



At 02:49 PM 1/22/99 -0800, you wrote:
>> >      I think that pricing is Gatekeeper-Centered instead of
>> > Gateway-Centered. Whenever IP User or PSTN user to use IP telephone,
they
>> > must pay for some QoS calling.
>> 
>> This is an interesting problem. Billing data and call admission can be done
>> in the gateway controller, be it a call agent, SIP server, or H.323
>> gatekeeper, but these devices do not control QoS in the network nor do they
>> guarantee QoS. Let's use the term call agent. The call agent has first to
>> check with a policy server and also to find out if the QoS is indeed
>> provided by the transport layer, the routers and L2 elements underneath,
>> before charging for QoS. Would need actually to develop sort of a "call
>> flow" showing the interactions between the client requesting a call, the
>> call agent requesting QOS from the policy server, the reponses and
exception
>> handling.
>
>Presumably, when the policy engine is asked to authenticate and authorize the
>user, it can determine whether QOS is required for the user. The Policy
Server
>can then "push" the QOS information to the network.
>
>This is one of the reasons why an AAA protocol must be able to allow the
>server to send unsolicited messages down to the clients.
>
>PatC
>> 

[SNIP]

+1-503-264-8816(voice)              Intel - Hillsboro, OR
 mailto:jim.toga@intel.com         mailto:james.toga@ties.itu.int 
 PGP keyID 36 07 86 49 7D 74 DF 57  50 CB BA 32 08 9C 7C 41 

---------
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Sat Jan 23 00:08:14 1999
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Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:42:23 -0500
To: "Henry Sinnreich" <henry.sinnreich@mci.com>
From: John Schnizlein <jschnizl@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: IP Telphony Gateway Billing
Cc: <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
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Subtle change in the title because technical mechanisms for billing are
appropriate for IETF discussion while pricing is a business function, which
the IETF avoids because it could touch on anti-trust issues.

At 02:59 PM 1/22/99 -0500, Henry Sinnreich wrote:
>
>This is an interesting problem. 

It is interesting largely because the historical coincidence of call
establishment, resource reservation, bandwidth consumption, and billing
which occurs in traditional telephony does not apply to IP telephony. IP
telephony can support calls that make no reservation (at the risk of poor
quality), consume no bandwidth (during silence suppression), or incur no
billing beyond that for IP-network access (when both ends are IP stations).

>Billing data and call admission can be done
>in the gateway controller, be it a call agent, SIP server, or H.323
>gatekeeper, but these devices do not control QoS in the network nor do they
>guarantee QoS. 

In contrast to telephony's reservation by the call originator (and
subsequent call-leg originating switches), resource reservation is made by
the receiver in IP networks. This is a fundamental complication, but not
necessarily one that demands new protocols.

>Let's use the term call agent. The call agent has first to
>check with a policy server and also to find out if the QoS is indeed
>provided by the transport layer, the routers and L2 elements underneath,
>before charging for QoS. Would need actually to develop sort of a "call
>flow" showing the interactions between the client requesting a call, the
>call agent requesting QOS from the policy server, the reponses and exception
>handling.
>
>Any thoughts on the message exchange regarding QoS for a call and for policy
>decision (PDP and PEP - policy decision point and policy enforcement point)
>and enforcement ? ...
>Or can it be done in a simpler way, without requiring the tight coupling
>envisaged above?

"Simpler way" is in the eye of the beholder. Is this simple enough?

The call agent must choose if the call is to have the QoS that requires
admission control. If it does, it requires RSVP both ways between gateways,
and it accounts for the call based on the QoS it required. If RSVP is
invoked, the policy server that provides (via COPS) administrative
admission control based on ability to pay may accumulate charges based on
the reservation. Since reservations due to RSVP allocate the limited
resource of the high priority bandwidth, they should incur charges even if
used for applications other than IP telephony.

Call agents would be well-advised to use something like the Open Settlement
Protocol to apportion or accumulate charges for call legs in multiple
IP-telephony domains. The charges for calls should be sufficient to cover
the charges for the underlying (RSVP) resource allocations (unless the
business model has chosen a loss-leader for some business reason beyond
what we discuss in IETF circles).

John Schnizlein
Consulting Engineer
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Sat Jan 23 18:02:54 1999
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At 4:34 PM -0700 1/22/99, Paul E. Jones wrote:
>
>When I go to the store to by my IP phone, bring it home, and plug it into my
>hub, it should allow me to dial my grandmother's phone number and her phone
>should ring.  The mechanics of accomplishing that are complex, and we must
>have agreements on how that should be done at every step of the way.  In
>addition, I expect that my IP telephone will continue to work for more than
>four years.
>
>Creating an "Implementation Agreement" as Douglas suggests is not a bad
>idea.  It was not necessary with other protocols because they were simple,
>the implementations were software-based and free (so cost was no issue), and
>developed without interest from parties investing billions of dollars.  The
>last point is the key-- when people spend billions of dollars, they expect
>it to work.  Specifying a bunch of loosely related protocols and letting
>people build several implementations, picking and choosing incompatible
>components to address requirements, and waiting to see which one is
>"coolest" and declaring it the winning combination will not work in the IP
>telephony space.

I dunno, I think it could work out pretty well that way.  If my IP phone
works just like my current telephone, then I don't want one.  I can't speak
for the people spending the billions of dollars, but I am most interested
in IP telephony for the innovations it will bring.  And, I don't think
anyone would suggest that standards committees are fertile ground for
innovation; it's just not their mission.  Also, let's not forget that it
took many years for the existing telephone system to reach it's current
level of maturity.

Tim

Tim Dorcey
iXL-Los Angeles
tdorcey@ixl.com
(310) 235-3928

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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Sat Jan 23 20:02:01 1999
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From: "Hoefelmeyer, Ralph (MCI)" <Ralph.Hoefelmeyer@mci.com>
To: "'John Schnizlein'" <jschnizl@cisco.com>,
        "Sinnreich, Heinrich"
	 <Henry.Sinnreich@mci.com>
Cc: iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
Subject: RE: IP Telphony Gateway Billing
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:28:15 -0000
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Hello,

Why not do flat rate billing based solely on QoS?  The user signs up for a
certain QoS level, and all of their traffic is carried with at least that
level of QoS, with an allowable small deviation.
This would take billing out of the gateway arena.

Ralph

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	John Schnizlein [SMTP:jschnizl@cisco.com]
> Sent:	Friday, January 22, 1999 5:42 PM
> To:	Sinnreich, Heinrich
> Cc:	iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
> Subject:	RE: IP Telphony Gateway Billing
> 
> Subtle change in the title because technical mechanisms for billing are
> appropriate for IETF discussion while pricing is a business function,
> which
> the IETF avoids because it could touch on anti-trust issues.
> 
> At 02:59 PM 1/22/99 -0500, Henry Sinnreich wrote:
> >
> >This is an interesting problem. 
> 
> It is interesting largely because the historical coincidence of call
> establishment, resource reservation, bandwidth consumption, and billing
> which occurs in traditional telephony does not apply to IP telephony. IP
> telephony can support calls that make no reservation (at the risk of poor
> quality), consume no bandwidth (during silence suppression), or incur no
> billing beyond that for IP-network access (when both ends are IP
> stations).
> 
> >Billing data and call admission can be done
> >in the gateway controller, be it a call agent, SIP server, or H.323
> >gatekeeper, but these devices do not control QoS in the network nor do
> they
> >guarantee QoS. 
> 
> In contrast to telephony's reservation by the call originator (and
> subsequent call-leg originating switches), resource reservation is made by
> the receiver in IP networks. This is a fundamental complication, but not
> necessarily one that demands new protocols.
> 
> >Let's use the term call agent. The call agent has first to
> >check with a policy server and also to find out if the QoS is indeed
> >provided by the transport layer, the routers and L2 elements underneath,
> >before charging for QoS. Would need actually to develop sort of a "call
> >flow" showing the interactions between the client requesting a call, the
> >call agent requesting QOS from the policy server, the reponses and
> exception
> >handling.
> >
> >Any thoughts on the message exchange regarding QoS for a call and for
> policy
> >decision (PDP and PEP - policy decision point and policy enforcement
> point)
> >and enforcement ? ...
> >Or can it be done in a simpler way, without requiring the tight coupling
> >envisaged above?
> 
> "Simpler way" is in the eye of the beholder. Is this simple enough?
> 
> The call agent must choose if the call is to have the QoS that requires
> admission control. If it does, it requires RSVP both ways between
> gateways,
> and it accounts for the call based on the QoS it required. If RSVP is
> invoked, the policy server that provides (via COPS) administrative
> admission control based on ability to pay may accumulate charges based on
> the reservation. Since reservations due to RSVP allocate the limited
> resource of the high priority bandwidth, they should incur charges even if
> used for applications other than IP telephony.
> 
> Call agents would be well-advised to use something like the Open
> Settlement
> Protocol to apportion or accumulate charges for call legs in multiple
> IP-telephony domains. The charges for calls should be sufficient to cover
> the charges for the underlying (RSVP) resource allocations (unless the
> business model has chosen a loss-leader for some business reason beyond
> what we discuss in IETF circles).
> 
> John Schnizlein
> Consulting Engineer
> ---------
> This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.

------_=_NextPart_001_01BE470E.E8264910
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
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charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2232.0">
<TITLE>RE: IP Telphony Gateway Billing</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" FACE=3D"Arial">Hello,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" FACE=3D"Arial">Why not do flat rate billing =
based solely on QoS?&nbsp; The user signs up for a certain QoS level, =
and all of their traffic is carried with at least that level of QoS, =
with an allowable small deviation.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" FACE=3D"Arial">This would take billing out =
of the gateway arena.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" FACE=3D"Arial">Ralph</FONT>
</P>
<UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">John Schnizlein =
[SMTP:jschnizl@cisco.com]</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Friday, January 22, 1999 5:42 PM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Sinnreich, Heinrich</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Cc:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">RE: IP Telphony Gateway =
Billing</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Subtle change =
in the title because technical mechanisms for billing are</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">appropriate =
for IETF discussion while pricing is a business function, which</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">the IETF =
avoids because it could touch on anti-trust issues.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">At 02:59 PM =
1/22/99 -0500, Henry Sinnreich wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&gt;This is =
an interesting problem. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">It is =
interesting largely because the historical coincidence of call</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">establishment, resource reservation, bandwidth consumption, and =
billing</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">which occurs =
in traditional telephony does not apply to IP telephony. IP</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">telephony can =
support calls that make no reservation (at the risk of poor</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">quality), =
consume no bandwidth (during silence suppression), or incur no</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">billing =
beyond that for IP-network access (when both ends are IP =
stations).</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&gt;Billing =
data and call admission can be done</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&gt;in the =
gateway controller, be it a call agent, SIP server, or H.323</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;gatekeeper, but these devices do not control QoS in the =
network nor do they</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&gt;guarantee =
QoS. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">In contrast to =
telephony's reservation by the call originator (and</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">subsequent =
call-leg originating switches), resource reservation is made by</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">the receiver =
in IP networks. This is a fundamental complication, but not</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">necessarily =
one that demands new protocols.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&gt;Let's use =
the term call agent. The call agent has first to</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&gt;check =
with a policy server and also to find out if the QoS is indeed</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&gt;provided =
by the transport layer, the routers and L2 elements underneath,</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&gt;before =
charging for QoS. Would need actually to develop sort of a =
&quot;call</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;flow&quot; showing the interactions between the client =
requesting a call, the</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&gt;call =
agent requesting QOS from the policy server, the reponses and =
exception</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">&gt;handling.</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&gt;Any =
thoughts on the message exchange regarding QoS for a call and for =
policy</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&gt;decision =
(PDP and PEP - policy decision point and policy enforcement =
point)</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&gt;and =
enforcement ? ...</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&gt;Or can it =
be done in a simpler way, without requiring the tight coupling</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&gt;envisaged =
above?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&quot;Simpler =
way&quot; is in the eye of the beholder. Is this simple enough?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">The call agent =
must choose if the call is to have the QoS that requires</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">admission =
control. If it does, it requires RSVP both ways between =
gateways,</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">and it =
accounts for the call based on the QoS it required. If RSVP is</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">invoked, the =
policy server that provides (via COPS) administrative</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">admission =
control based on ability to pay may accumulate charges based on</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">the =
reservation. Since reservations due to RSVP allocate the limited</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">resource of =
the high priority bandwidth, they should incur charges even if</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">used for =
applications other than IP telephony.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Call agents =
would be well-advised to use something like the Open Settlement</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Protocol to =
apportion or accumulate charges for call legs in multiple</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">IP-telephony =
domains. The charges for calls should be sufficient to cover</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">the charges =
for the underlying (RSVP) resource allocations (unless the</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">business =
model has chosen a loss-leader for some business reason beyond</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">what we =
discuss in IETF circles).</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">John =
Schnizlein</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Consulting =
Engineer</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">---------</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">This message =
came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.</FONT>
</P>
</UL>
</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01BE470E.E8264910--
---------
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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Sat Jan 23 21:02:17 1999
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From: "Henry Sinnreich" <henry.sinnreich@mci.com>
To: <TDorcey@ixl.com>, <paul.jones@ties.itu.int>
Cc: <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>, <confctrl@ISI.EDU>
Subject: RE: SIP
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:47:03 -0500
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Tim Dorcey writes:
> I dunno, I think it could work out pretty well that way.  If my IP phone
> works just like my current telephone, then I don't want one.  I
> can't speak
> for the people spending the billions of dollars, but I am most interested
> in IP telephony for the innovations it will bring.

Agree, it is not imitating the telephone network, but the platform for
innovations that makes sense. Also, then it will not be IP  telephony any
more, but rather a rich mix of services, of which voice is just another
component IMHO.

Henry Sinnreich
MCI WorldCom
400 International Parkway
Richardson, Texas 75081

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
> [mailto:owner-iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com]On Behalf Of
> TDorcey@ixl.com
> Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 8:52 PM
> To: paul.jones@ties.itu.int
> Cc: iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com; confctrl@ISI.EDU
> Subject: Re: SIP
>
>
> At 4:34 PM -0700 1/22/99, Paul E. Jones wrote:
> >
> >When I go to the store to by my IP phone, bring it home, and
> plug it into my
> >hub, it should allow me to dial my grandmother's phone number
> and her phone
> >should ring.  The mechanics of accomplishing that are complex,
> and we must
> >have agreements on how that should be done at every step of the way.  In
> >addition, I expect that my IP telephone will continue to work
> for more than
> >four years.
> >
> >Creating an "Implementation Agreement" as Douglas suggests is not a bad
> >idea.  It was not necessary with other protocols because they
> were simple,
> >the implementations were software-based and free (so cost was no
> issue), and
> >developed without interest from parties investing billions of
> dollars.  The
> >last point is the key-- when people spend billions of dollars,
> they expect
> >it to work.  Specifying a bunch of loosely related protocols and letting
> >people build several implementations, picking and choosing incompatible
> >components to address requirements, and waiting to see which one is
> >"coolest" and declaring it the winning combination will not work
> in the IP
> >telephony space.
>
> I dunno, I think it could work out pretty well that way.  If my IP phone
> works just like my current telephone, then I don't want one.  I
> can't speak
> for the people spending the billions of dollars, but I am most interested
> in IP telephony for the innovations it will bring.  And, I don't think
> anyone would suggest that standards committees are fertile ground for
> innovation; it's just not their mission.  Also, let's not forget that it
> took many years for the existing telephone system to reach it's current
> level of maturity.
>
> Tim
>
> Tim Dorcey
> iXL-Los Angeles
> tdorcey@ixl.com
> (310) 235-3928
>
> ---------
> This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.
>

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From owner-IPTEL@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Sun Jan 24 05:02:53 1999
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From: "Dean Willis" <Dean.Willis@mci.com>
To: "Hoefelmeyer, Ralph (MCI)" <Ralph.Hoefelmeyer@mci.com>
Cc: <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
Subject: RE: IP Telphony Gateway metering
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 23:12:10 -0600
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Note the further slight change in subject. Billing, like pricing, is a
business issue. Metering is an engineering problem, and Lord Kelvin
would have it that measurement is a scientific one.

Ralph asked:

> Hello,
> Why not do flat rate billing based solely on QoS?
> The user signs up for a certain QoS level, and all
> of their traffic is carried with at least that
> level of QoS, with an allowable small deviation.
> This would take billing out of the gateway arena.

I believe the answer is "regulatory". US regulations require IXCs to pay
LECS on a per-minute basis for call termination. This fee is a MAJOR
component of the cost of a PSTN Long Distance call. Similar charges
apply for international calls. Bypassing such fees is the main goal of
near-term arbitrage players. I believe there is also a turnaround charge
where LECs are paying ISPs for local calls terminated by the ISP.


A gateway brings a call from Internet into PSTN or vice versa, which is
probably going to make it full into the same regulatory kettle.

So, we really need to meter gateway time. How it is
charged/billed/priced is really a business discussion best held in
another forum.

If there is not gateway, then really the only meterable service
delivered to a plain IP phone call is the QoS -- so we really need to be
able to meter QoS too.

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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Sun Jan 24 22:36:42 1999
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Henry,

The number of people that I hear cursing Microsoft, and Netscape too,
because they don't implement each other's features *today* is not small.
Each browser only gets best effect when used with their own server. What
works in a Netscape browser, only when served by a Netscape server (and
v.v.) is an implementation agreement within the vendors browser and server
teams - same for MS.

Often, when I send a message to a mail exploder, I get back one or more
non-delivery notices. Sometimes I get one mail message more than once. I
suspect I get some messages not at all.

On the latest available version of MS Explorer, I loaded a web page last
week that told me my browser was too old. It was wrong. It was broken, just
like the mail system.

I can't send SMTP mail messages when I'm "off-net" because my provider will
not allow it, because it has inadequate security. I can't use NTP/SNTP
through firewalls because people block it. There are no end of ways the
Internet, and IETF protocols, break or are broken.

It really depends on your expectations, and those of your paying customers,
whoever they may be. From consumers who expect to pick up a handset, push a
button and talk to mom, without retarting their handset and redialling
three times. From service providers who want to be able to buy a new box,
and just plug it in, without hiring a consultant to tell them what support
servers they will need and will it be compatible with their existing
infrastructure.

Incidentally, e-mail and web exchanges only occur under two specific
circumstances: either you are lucky that there is a chain of commonality,
or your software has implemented a great number of almost, but not quite
the same protocols. My old POP/UUENCODE mail client has problems with the
IMAP post office, and the MIME attachments. The free mail clients that
support them are brain dead, so one day I'll fork out for a new one. Until
then, I'll plod on and curse these IETF protocols. [The nice thing about
standards is that there are so many of them from which to choose.]

Douglas

At 14:59 1999-01-22 -0500, Henry Sinnreich wrote:
>Douglas writes:
>> The solution seems to be the "Implementation Agreement" where, instead of
>> the standards body picking and choosing, a group of vendors, implementors,
>> or customers (or all three) get together and make the choices. Sometimes
>> each group gets together separately and we get three or more IAs.
>
>We exchange here e-mail and web pages by using IETF standard protocols. Am
>not aware that our applications, whatever they are, went through implementor
>agreements and the like.
>
>Henry
>



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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Mon Jan 25 10:55:36 1999
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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 06:03:22 -0800 (PST)
From: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Reply-To: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: RE: IP Telphony Gateway Billing
To: "Hoefelmeyer, Ralph (MCI)" <Ralph.Hoefelmeyer@mci.com>
Cc: "'John Schnizlein'" <jschnizl@cisco.com>,
        "Sinnreich, Heinrich" <Henry.Sinnreich@mci.com>,
        iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
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Actually, the IETF-accepted term (as far as I can tell) is "collection of
usage data", which can be used for capacity planning (of course, if you happen
to feed the data into your billing system, that's up to you :).

PatC

> Hello,
> 
> Why not do flat rate billing based solely on QoS?  The user signs up for a
> certain QoS level, and all of their traffic is carried with at least that
> level of QoS, with an allowable small deviation.
> This would take billing out of the gateway arena.
> 
> Ralph
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:	John Schnizlein [SMTP:jschnizl@cisco.com]
> > Sent:	Friday, January 22, 1999 5:42 PM
> > To:	Sinnreich, Heinrich
> > Cc:	iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
> > Subject:	RE: IP Telphony Gateway Billing
> > 
> > Subtle change in the title because technical mechanisms for billing are
> > appropriate for IETF discussion while pricing is a business function,
> > which
> > the IETF avoids because it could touch on anti-trust issues.
> > 
> > At 02:59 PM 1/22/99 -0500, Henry Sinnreich wrote:
> > >
> > >This is an interesting problem. 
> > 
> > It is interesting largely because the historical coincidence of call
> > establishment, resource reservation, bandwidth consumption, and billing
> > which occurs in traditional telephony does not apply to IP telephony. IP
> > telephony can support calls that make no reservation (at the risk of poor
> > quality), consume no bandwidth (during silence suppression), or incur no
> > billing beyond that for IP-network access (when both ends are IP
> > stations).
> > 
> > >Billing data and call admission can be done
> > >in the gateway controller, be it a call agent, SIP server, or H.323
> > >gatekeeper, but these devices do not control QoS in the network nor do
> > they
> > >guarantee QoS. 
> > 
> > In contrast to telephony's reservation by the call originator (and
> > subsequent call-leg originating switches), resource reservation is made by
> > the receiver in IP networks. This is a fundamental complication, but not
> > necessarily one that demands new protocols.
> > 
> > >Let's use the term call agent. The call agent has first to
> > >check with a policy server and also to find out if the QoS is indeed
> > >provided by the transport layer, the routers and L2 elements underneath,
> > >before charging for QoS. Would need actually to develop sort of a "call
> > >flow" showing the interactions between the client requesting a call, the
> > >call agent requesting QOS from the policy server, the reponses and
> > exception
> > >handling.
> > >
> > >Any thoughts on the message exchange regarding QoS for a call and for
> > policy
> > >decision (PDP and PEP - policy decision point and policy enforcement
> > point)
> > >and enforcement ? ...
> > >Or can it be done in a simpler way, without requiring the tight coupling
> > >envisaged above?
> > 
> > "Simpler way" is in the eye of the beholder. Is this simple enough?
> > 
> > The call agent must choose if the call is to have the QoS that requires
> > admission control. If it does, it requires RSVP both ways between
> > gateways,
> > and it accounts for the call based on the QoS it required. If RSVP is
> > invoked, the policy server that provides (via COPS) administrative
> > admission control based on ability to pay may accumulate charges based on
> > the reservation. Since reservations due to RSVP allocate the limited
> > resource of the high priority bandwidth, they should incur charges even if
> > used for applications other than IP telephony.
> > 
> > Call agents would be well-advised to use something like the Open
> > Settlement
> > Protocol to apportion or accumulate charges for call legs in multiple
> > IP-telephony domains. The charges for calls should be sufficient to cover
> > the charges for the underlying (RSVP) resource allocations (unless the
> > business model has chosen a loss-leader for some business reason beyond
> > what we discuss in IETF circles).
> > 
> > John Schnizlein
> > Consulting Engineer
> > ---------
> > This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.



---------
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        "Henry Sinnreich" <henry.sinnreich@mci.com>,
        "Douglas Clowes" <dclowes@ozemail.com.au>,
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From: Jay Batson <jbatson@pingtel.com>
Subject: Re: SIP
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This thread is effectively pointing out the fact that there are
philosophical differences between people.  Not that one is "right" and one
is "wrong."  And that the protocol must allow accomodation.

The issue is flexibility vs. degree of effort.  When everyone is forced to
agree and do precisely the same thing, progress speed slows from the speed
of innovation to the speed of agreement.  I, for one, *prefer* to live with
some imperfection in exchange for faster innovation and change.  I prefer
Internet-speed to Telecom-speed.

The very fact that two end nodes can agree to do whatever they want across
an IP network, and that the IP network provides simple transport (hopefully
soon with a QoS component), permits an incredible rate technology
advancement.  Last Thursday I learned about ImagineRadio -- a 'net-based
"radio station" that I can customize to my tastes, and listen to with a
Real Audio player.  Supported by text ads (no voice-ads.)  Some guy thought
of it, and I simply added RealAudio to my web browser to support him.  I
didn't need UUNET to "agree on a implementation of personalized radio
station traffic carriage."  And no, it isn't as good as FM quality sound...
yet.  But I listen to it anyway because the music choice fits me better
than anything I can get over the airwaves.  And it all happened in a few
months simply because the basic protocols existed -- not a standardization
of how the protocols are supposed to be used.  Where's PSTN "radio?"
Non-existent.

Today, I can choose to deploy to my company an email application that does
*straight* text in a predictable, reliable, manageable way.  Or I can
choose to deploy Netscape/Outlook email and have graphics/rich-text
displayed in-line, and pay for a higher degree of management/software cost
in the process.  Or get some other feature that some vendor provides,
simply because POP and MIME are so elegantly extensible -- X-mynewfeature:
application/mynew-whizbang-thing.  We here at Pingtel have chose the
innovative email, despite its warts.  Of course, in either case, email gets
through....

In contrast, look at how telco/cable-driven "interactive network"
experiments have gone.  Closed environments in limited regions with bogus,
thinly disguised restaurant advertisements substituting for "entertainment"
guides.  Ask any business manager who has been in the "Smart Phone"
business about telco-driven "interactive phone" trials where the telco
provided the "content," email servers, ....  (Minitel notwithstanding.)

Compare that to boston.sidewalk.com, or www.boston.com, where there is
competition, incredible innovation on how to organize information.  This
all works because of the genius of HTML/HTTP/Javascript/... on an "open,"
public IP network.  Extensible, simple, text-based protocols that anybody
can innovate around.  And (let me cast a barb here) do without buying an
expensive ASN.1 compiler... ;-)

Paul may rightly feel that he wants a higher degree of stability and
predictability.  That the protocols should provide the same experience as
the PSTN.  This is his choice.  He should find service providers who
*focus* on this, and *eliminate* products from their network (and those to
whom they connect) that would replicate the PSTN experience using IP
technology.  His service providers should *prohibit* technology that
contains the degree of freedom that *I* would choose.

However, *I* should be able to choose from service providers and products
that are to IP Telephony what UUNET and Netscape are to the Internet:  they
provide reliable, basic, and extensible infrastructure that can be extended
at will between consenting parties.  I *want* things to work the way HTTP,
HTML, SMTP/POP, ..., all work today, warts and all, because I want the
innovation.

I *want* an ITSP that will, at some point in the future, provide me with
the ability to buy/install (at my site) my own leading-edge application
that will take in my SMTP mail, and use "3rd party signalling" with my ITSP
(via SIP/MGCP/whatever) to set up a voice phone call between me on my IP
wireless (premises) phone (from Symbol Technologies) and the sender of a
SMTP message, via a service-provider-run IP/PSTN gateway, all because the
words "CALL ME" were in the subject line of the SMTP message.

And I want the protocol open enough so that Joe's Software in Palo Alto can
write the application, sell it to me, and have it work with my ITSP's
(probably Henry's, er, MCI/Worldcom's ;-) IP/PSTN voice network.  And if it
doesn't work occasionally because it's still immature, I'll put up with it
because the infrastructure -- read "the protocols" -- permitted the
extensibility *without* requiring absolute, rigid adherence to the *way* in
which they should be used.

Paul Jones says:
>We cannot and should not expect our telephone system to act this way.

There is another "we" who feels an entirely contrary way:
We cannot and should not constrain the IP voice systems of the future --
they can, and *should* work the way web browsers/email/... all work today,
with the need to upgrade/install software to get the new whiz-bang
features.  The price of innovation is that you have to work to keep up.
Give me the work anyday as long as you give me the innovation.

Give me choices in how to locate users.  Give me choices in how to select
IP/PSTN gateways.  Let me choose which QoS choice I want (by giving ITSPs
choices in products to deploy.)

I want a *choice* in *what happens* when I pick up the phone to call
grandma.  I *do* want it to connect.  I do want some base level
functionality -- just as HTML/SMTP/... all do their basic job on the 'net.
But let extensibility roam free.  If in the process, products don't work
with each other, fix 'em.  Everything does *not* need to be perfect
day-one.  This has plenty of precedent in the IP world.  Back in the early
days of IP dialup, when we called it "Remote Access," various dialup
servers didn't all work with the same client software.  We all used PPP,
but "differently."  The market didn't buy it.  Customers demanded that a
Mac PPP, a Win 3.1 PPP, and a Win95 PPP all be able to dial into the same
server.  So we created the "PPP Forum," and did PPP "bakeoffs."  (Just like
the VoIP Forum....)  Today, do you have any *clue* whether you're dialing
into an Ascend box or a 3Com/USR box at your ISP?  No.

This is not intended as derogatory, but to my mind, this is a pure
"bell-head vs. net-head" discussion.  The net-head approach to protocols
has certainly created some great new innovations in the last 5-10 years.
I'd sure hate to take that away from IP telphony's future.

Cheers
-jb

At 06:34 PM 1/22/99 -0500, Paul E. Jones wrote:
>Henry Sinnreich  wrote:
>>Douglas writes:
>>> The solution seems to be the "Implementation Agreement" where, instead of
>>> the standards body picking and choosing, a group of vendors, implementors,
>>> or customers (or all three) get together and make the choices. Sometimes
>>> each group gets together separately and we get three or more IAs.
>>
>>We exchange here e-mail and web pages by using IETF standard protocols. Am
>>not aware that our applications, whatever they are, went through implementor
>>agreements and the like.
>
>But even mail and web services are not without problems....
>However, it has not been without pain on the users-- they have had to
>upgrade their software every time a new "whiz-bang" feature was added....
>
>We cannot and should not expect our telephone system to act this way.


----------
Jay Batson
President, CEO
Pingtel Corp.
jbatson@pingtel.com

781-938-5306 (office)
781-938-9650 (fax)


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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Mon Jan 25 11:30:06 1999
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Douglas,

Douglas Clowes wrote:
	[..]
> The free mail clients that
> support them are brain dead, so one day I'll fork out for a new one. Until
> then, I'll plod on and curse these IETF protocols. [The nice thing about
> standards is that there are so many of them from which to choose.]

Yeah, the world's a pretty rough place. I remember a time when TV
signals used different formats in many countries around
the world, you couldn't simply travel to another country and
plug your appliances or phones in (lest the plug and/or voltage be
wrong), and even the people insisted on speaking different languages
(unless you were lucky enough to meet someone who implemented
a local variation of English or something that partially interworked
with your preferred tongue)

Now I've forgotten what the point of the thread was..... :)

cheers,
gja
________________________________________________________________________
Grenville Armitage                            http://mh005.infi.net/~gja
Multiservice Core Data Networks                http://www.lucent.com/dns

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> >What if there are no servers? What if users try and contact
> each other
> >directly? In that case, you will need to make use of network QoS
> >management techniques. This is also not SIP specific. If two H.323
> >terminals communicate directly, you'll have the same problem.
>
> This is exactly why the standard stipulates that _if_ Gatekeepers are
> present, they must be utilized.
>
I just hide when the protocol police come knocking. Lucky I haven't been
caught yet. Whew.



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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Mon Jan 25 14:16:23 1999
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                             Call for Papers
             Special Issue of IEEE COMMUNICATION MAGAZINE on

                            Internet Telephony

Due to the potential economic advantages, the integration of several media
is desirable and very attractive. Today, however, voice over IP remains
somewhat of a technical novelty, hindred by a number of existing problems
to provide an assured voice quality. The likely prognosis is that over the
next year or two, the advent of Resource Reservation Protocol (RSVP) and
increased enterprise network bandwidth (achieved with ATM WAN services)
could give a boost to voice over IP. This special issue is to bring
experts in the field to share with IEEE COMMUNICATION MAGAZINE readers the
current problems, components, and experiments in "Internet Telephony".
Desirable features of a voice-over-IP system include:

* Optimal use of bandwidth.
* Capacity management.
* Support of speech quality.
* Flexible integration into voice environment (e.g., PBX).
* Enterprise network ready (support LAN/WAN/Internet protocols for direct
  attachment).
* System-level scalability: must be easy to add PBX-side interfaces to
  support growth in requirements and appropriate links.
* Network-level scalability: must be able to support mapping of a sufficient
  number of extensions (perhaps several thousands) to the respective IP
  addresses of the destination gateway. A master database with distributed
  upgrade may be desirable.

IEEE COMMUNICATION MAGAZINE announces a forthcoming issue on "Internet 
Telephony". Prospective authors should follow IEEE COMMUNICATION MAGAZINE 
guidelines and submit an electronic (PDF file or a PostScript file viewable by 
Ghostview) copy of the manuscript to one of the Guest Editors listed below. 
Articles addressing both traditional and innovative products will be given 
preference. Topics include, but are not limited to:

* Voice over IP/ATM
* IP over ATM/FR for Multimedia
* Traffic Control for Multimedia/Internet Telephony
* QoS Control of Voice over IP
* Evolution of the VPN and PBX environment
* Traffic Capacity Management and Routing Algorithms for Multimedia.

Full manuscript submission deadline         June 30, 1999
Notification of acceptance                  October 30, 1999
Publication Schedule                        April 2000

Mohsen Guizani              Ammar Rayes                   Mohammed Atiquzzaman
Elec. & Comp. Engr.         Director, Solution Arch.      Elec. & Comp. Engr.
Univ. of Missouri-Columbia  Traffic Capacity Manag.       300 College Park  
5605 Troost Avenue          & Planning                    University of Dayton
Kansas City,                Bellcore, 444 Hoes Lane       Dayton,
MO 64110-2823, USA.         Piscataway, NJ 08854, USA.    Ohio 45469-0226, USA.
Tel: (816) 235-1550         Tel: (732) 699-3669           Tel. (937) 229 3183
Fax: (816) 235-1260         arayes@notes.cc.bellcore.com  Fax. (937) 229-4529
guizanim@umkc.edu                                         atiq@engr.udayton.edu

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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Mon Jan 25 14:37:13 1999
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Dean Willis wrote:
> 
> Note the further slight change in subject. Billing, like pricing, is a
> business issue. Metering is an engineering problem, and Lord Kelvin
> would have it that measurement is a scientific one.
> 
> Ralph asked:
> 
> > Hello,
> > Why not do flat rate billing based solely on QoS?
> > The user signs up for a certain QoS level, and all
> > of their traffic is carried with at least that
> > level of QoS, with an allowable small deviation.
> > This would take billing out of the gateway arena.
> 
> I believe the answer is "regulatory". US regulations require IXCs to pay
> LECS on a per-minute basis for call termination. This fee is a MAJOR
> component of the cost of a PSTN Long Distance call. Similar charges
> apply for international calls. Bypassing such fees is the main goal of
> near-term arbitrage players. I believe there is also a turnaround charge
> where LECs are paying ISPs for local calls terminated by the ISP.
> 
> A gateway brings a call from Internet into PSTN or vice versa, which is
> probably going to make it full into the same regulatory kettle.

I think that there is really more than one thing to bill for here, and
that different models (and metering requirements) apply to the various
components. The things you might pay for in an IP telephony environnment
are:

1. Qos in the IP network
2. gateway services
3. database queries (like name lookups)
4. execution of service logic (ala CPL)
5. proxy services (like some kind of mobility service in SIP)

Perhaps flat rate makes sense of QoS (I pay $29.95 a month for gold
service, $19.95 for regular, best effort). Dean gives good reasons why
flat rate might not make sense for gateways. For services like database
queries, things like per-minute billing don't even make sense, so flat
rate or per-transaction probably is more appropriate. Note that not all
of these components would be in every call; there are no gateways for an
IP to IP call. 

Nothing prevents your service provider from rolling up these various
services into one bill, but I think it would be nice to get these
different components from different providers if the customer wants.
Each, of course, requires monitoring and some means of reporting usage
statistics to some servers that collect the data and generate bills or
whatever. Based on this, it would make sense that (1) gateways report
usage statistics for gateway usage, (2) COPS servers or bandwidth
brokers or border elements provide QoS usage statistics, (3) and  SIP
servers/gatekeepers provide proxy, service logic, and perhaps database
query usage. 

-Jonathan R.



-- 
Jonathan D. Rosenberg                       Lucent Technologies
Member of Technical Staff                   101 Crawfords Corner Rd.
High Speed Networks Research                Holmdel, NJ 07733
FAX:   (732) 834-5379                       Rm. 4C-526
EMAIL: jdrosen@bell-labs.com
URL: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~jdrosen

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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Mon Jan 25 15:02:28 1999
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Would it be fair to meter a user's call on basis of his proximity to the
Gateway ? For instance, if a user utilises a gateway closer to him for a
destination which is pretty far from the gateway(say useing a longer
trunk) would he actually  be charged more by the gateway, in addition to
being charged more by the PSTN ? Also, considering that the longer the
distance covered on the IP in contrast to the PSTN, the quality of the
call is expected to be lower..., so would it be fair to assume that the
lesser number of hops or  distance,a call uses IP the network  , the more
expensive the call becomes.

This is just a thought, I want to know if it sounds reasonable ?

Sujatha.
------------------------------

On Mon, 25 Jan 1999,
Jonathan Rosenberg wrote:

> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 14:28:40 -0500
> From: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>
> To: Dean Willis <Dean.Willis@mci.com>
> Cc: "Hoefelmeyer, Ralph (MCI)" <Ralph.Hoefelmeyer@mci.com>,
>     iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
> Subject: Re: IP Telphony Gateway metering
> 
> Dean Willis wrote:
> > 
> > Note the further slight change in subject. Billing, like pricing, is a
> > business issue. Metering is an engineering problem, and Lord Kelvin
> > would have it that measurement is a scientific one.
> > 
> > Ralph asked:
> > 
> > > Hello,
> > > Why not do flat rate billing based solely on QoS?
> > > The user signs up for a certain QoS level, and all
> > > of their traffic is carried with at least that
> > > level of QoS, with an allowable small deviation.
> > > This would take billing out of the gateway arena.
> > 
> > I believe the answer is "regulatory". US regulations require IXCs to pay
> > LECS on a per-minute basis for call termination. This fee is a MAJOR
> > component of the cost of a PSTN Long Distance call. Similar charges
> > apply for international calls. Bypassing such fees is the main goal of
> > near-term arbitrage players. I believe there is also a turnaround charge
> > where LECs are paying ISPs for local calls terminated by the ISP.
> > 
> > A gateway brings a call from Internet into PSTN or vice versa, which is
> > probably going to make it full into the same regulatory kettle.
> 
> I think that there is really more than one thing to bill for here, and
> that different models (and metering requirements) apply to the various
> components. The things you might pay for in an IP telephony environnment
> are:
> 
> 1. Qos in the IP network
> 2. gateway services
> 3. database queries (like name lookups)
> 4. execution of service logic (ala CPL)
> 5. proxy services (like some kind of mobility service in SIP)
> 
> Perhaps flat rate makes sense of QoS (I pay $29.95 a month for gold
> service, $19.95 for regular, best effort). Dean gives good reasons why
> flat rate might not make sense for gateways. For services like database
> queries, things like per-minute billing don't even make sense, so flat
> rate or per-transaction probably is more appropriate. Note that not all
> of these components would be in every call; there are no gateways for an
> IP to IP call. 
> 
> Nothing prevents your service provider from rolling up these various
> services into one bill, but I think it would be nice to get these
> different components from different providers if the customer wants.
> Each, of course, requires monitoring and some means of reporting usage
> statistics to some servers that collect the data and generate bills or
> whatever. Based on this, it would make sense that (1) gateways report
> usage statistics for gateway usage, (2) COPS servers or bandwidth
> brokers or border elements provide QoS usage statistics, (3) and  SIP
> servers/gatekeepers provide proxy, service logic, and perhaps database
> query usage. 
> 
> -Jonathan R.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jonathan D. Rosenberg                       Lucent Technologies
> Member of Technical Staff                   101 Crawfords Corner Rd.
> High Speed Networks Research                Holmdel, NJ 07733
> FAX:   (732) 834-5379                       Rm. 4C-526
> EMAIL: jdrosen@bell-labs.com
> URL: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~jdrosen
> 
> ---------
> This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.
> 

******************************************************************************
Sujatha Balaraman              *  e-mail :sujathab@ece.ucdavis.edu
609, Anderson Road             *          sbalaraman@ucdavis.edu
Apt: 287,                      *    
Davis                          *   Ph: 530-750-3897
CA  95616                      *      
*******************************************************************************




---------
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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Mon Jan 25 16:16:06 1999
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From: "Dean Willis" <Dean.Willis@MCI.COM>
To: "Jonathan Rosenberg" <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>
Cc: <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
Subject: RE: IP Telphony Gateway metering
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 14:04:39 -0600
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Jonathan listed:
> I think that there is really more than one thing to bill for here, and
> that different models (and metering requirements) apply to the various
> components. The things you might pay for in an IP telephony
> environnment
> are:
>
> 1. Qos in the IP network
> 2. gateway services
> 3. database queries (like name lookups)
> 4. execution of service logic (ala CPL)
> 5. proxy services (like some kind of mobility service in SIP)

which is a nice summary. But, methinks he left one category off: Media
services.

Storage, retrieval, transcoding, splitting, recognition, ad nauseata are
all nifty things that can be metered, packaged, bartered and so on to
add value to basic call services.

There is no reason why any one call might not combine many services
across all (6) categories from many vendors, with different call
participants paying for separate subsets of the services utilized and
potentially with settlements between carriers/providers for some of the
services. Wow.

--
Dean




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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Mon Jan 25 16:20:18 1999
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From: "Rollender, Douglas Harold (Douglas)" <rollender@lucent.com>
To: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>,
        Sujatha Balaraman <sujathab@ece.ucdavis.edu>
Cc: iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
Subject: RE: IP Telphony Gateway metering
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And if the call is wireless and the user is moving......

	----------
	From:  Sujatha Balaraman [SMTP:sujathab@ece.ucdavis.edu]
	Sent:  Monday, January 25, 1999 2:55 PM
	To:  Jonathan Rosenberg
	Cc:  iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
	Subject:  Re: IP Telphony Gateway metering


	Would it be fair to meter a user's call on basis of his proximity to
the
	Gateway ? For instance, if a user utilises a gateway closer to him
for a
	destination which is pretty far from the gateway(say useing a longer
	trunk) would he actually  be charged more by the gateway, in
addition to
	being charged more by the PSTN ? Also, considering that the longer
the
	distance covered on the IP in contrast to the PSTN, the quality of
the
	call is expected to be lower..., so would it be fair to assume that
the
	lesser number of hops or  distance,a call uses IP the network  , the
more
	expensive the call becomes.

	This is just a thought, I want to know if it sounds reasonable ?

	Sujatha.
	------------------------------

	On Mon, 25 Jan 1999,
	Jonathan Rosenberg wrote:

	> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 14:28:40 -0500
	> From: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>
	> To: Dean Willis <Dean.Willis@mci.com>
	> Cc: "Hoefelmeyer, Ralph (MCI)" <Ralph.Hoefelmeyer@mci.com>,
	>     iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
	> Subject: Re: IP Telphony Gateway metering
	> 
	> Dean Willis wrote:
	> > 
	> > Note the further slight change in subject. Billing, like
pricing, is a
	> > business issue. Metering is an engineering problem, and Lord
Kelvin
	> > would have it that measurement is a scientific one.
	> > 
	> > Ralph asked:
	> > 
	> > > Hello,
	> > > Why not do flat rate billing based solely on QoS?
	> > > The user signs up for a certain QoS level, and all
	> > > of their traffic is carried with at least that
	> > > level of QoS, with an allowable small deviation.
	> > > This would take billing out of the gateway arena.
	> > 
	> > I believe the answer is "regulatory". US regulations require
IXCs to pay
	> > LECS on a per-minute basis for call termination. This fee is a
MAJOR
	> > component of the cost of a PSTN Long Distance call. Similar
charges
	> > apply for international calls. Bypassing such fees is the main
goal of
	> > near-term arbitrage players. I believe there is also a
turnaround charge
	> > where LECs are paying ISPs for local calls terminated by the
ISP.
	> > 
	> > A gateway brings a call from Internet into PSTN or vice versa,
which is
	> > probably going to make it full into the same regulatory kettle.
	> 
	> I think that there is really more than one thing to bill for here,
and
	> that different models (and metering requirements) apply to the
various
	> components. The things you might pay for in an IP telephony
environnment
	> are:
	> 
	> 1. Qos in the IP network
	> 2. gateway services
	> 3. database queries (like name lookups)
	> 4. execution of service logic (ala CPL)
	> 5. proxy services (like some kind of mobility service in SIP)
	> 
	> Perhaps flat rate makes sense of QoS (I pay $29.95 a month for
gold
	> service, $19.95 for regular, best effort). Dean gives good reasons
why
	> flat rate might not make sense for gateways. For services like
database
	> queries, things like per-minute billing don't even make sense, so
flat
	> rate or per-transaction probably is more appropriate. Note that
not all
	> of these components would be in every call; there are no gateways
for an
	> IP to IP call. 
	> 
	> Nothing prevents your service provider from rolling up these
various
	> services into one bill, but I think it would be nice to get these
	> different components from different providers if the customer
wants.
	> Each, of course, requires monitoring and some means of reporting
usage
	> statistics to some servers that collect the data and generate
bills or
	> whatever. Based on this, it would make sense that (1) gateways
report
	> usage statistics for gateway usage, (2) COPS servers or bandwidth
	> brokers or border elements provide QoS usage statistics, (3) and
SIP
	> servers/gatekeepers provide proxy, service logic, and perhaps
database
	> query usage. 
	> 
	> -Jonathan R.
	> 
	> 
	> 
	> -- 
	> Jonathan D. Rosenberg                       Lucent Technologies
	> Member of Technical Staff                   101 Crawfords Corner
Rd.
	> High Speed Networks Research                Holmdel, NJ 07733
	> FAX:   (732) 834-5379                       Rm. 4C-526
	> EMAIL: jdrosen@bell-labs.com
	> URL: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~jdrosen
	> 
	> ---------
	> This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.
	> 

	
****************************************************************************
**
	Sujatha Balaraman              *  e-mail :sujathab@ece.ucdavis.edu
	609, Anderson Road             *          sbalaraman@ucdavis.edu
	Apt: 287,                      *    
	Davis                          *   Ph: 530-750-3897
	CA  95616                      *      
	
****************************************************************************
***




	---------
	This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.

---------
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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Mon Jan 25 16:46:28 1999
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From within a PDU, no one can hear you scream.....


At 11:47 AM 1/25/99 -0500, David R. Oran wrote:
>> >What if there are no servers? What if users try and contact
>> each other
>> >directly? In that case, you will need to make use of network QoS
>> >management techniques. This is also not SIP specific. If two H.323
>> >terminals communicate directly, you'll have the same problem.
>>
>> This is exactly why the standard stipulates that _if_ Gatekeepers are
>> present, they must be utilized.
>>
>I just hide when the protocol police come knocking. Lucky I haven't been
>caught yet. Whew.
>
>

---------
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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Mon Jan 25 17:09:49 1999
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From: "Henry Sinnreich" <henry.sinnreich@mci.com>
To: "Jonathan Rosenberg" <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>,
        "Dean Willis" <Dean.Willis@mci.com>
Cc: "Hoefelmeyer, Ralph (MCI)" <Ralph.Hoefelmeyer@mci.com>,
        <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
Subject: RE: IP Telphony Gateway metering
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:02:23 -0500
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It appears that for Internet-wide standard AA(A) and metering (instead of
the 3rd (A)), there is some work cut out for a possible BOF -> WG to agree
on

* Data excahnge with the AA(A) system,
* Data exchange with the policy server using COPS,
* Gateway metering,
* RSVP and/or DiffServ metering,
* IMHO a data format, why not XML?

Would be nice to agree on a framework and see if there is something missing
or has to be written.
Any interest in this?

Thanks, Henry


Jonathan Rosenberg wrote:
>it would make sense that (1) gateways report
> usage statistics for gateway usage, (2) COPS servers or bandwidth
> brokers or border elements provide QoS usage statistics, (3) and  SIP
> servers/gatekeepers provide proxy, service logic, and perhaps database
> query usage.

and John Schnizlein has similar thoughts:
>The call agent must choose if the call is to have the QoS that requires
>admission control. If it does, it requires RSVP both ways between gateways,
>and it accounts for the call based on the QoS it required. If RSVP is
>invoked, the policy server that provides (via COPS) administrative
>admission control based on ability to pay may accumulate charges based on
>the reservation. Since reservations due to RSVP allocate the limited
>resource of the high priority bandwidth, they should incur charges even if
>used for applications other than IP telephony.

>Call agents would be well-advised to use something like the Open Settlement
>Protocol to apportion or accumulate charges for call legs in multiple
>IP-telephony domains. The charges for calls should be sufficient to cover
>the charges for the underlying (RSVP) resource allocations (unless the
>business model has chosen a loss-leader for some business reason beyond
>what we discuss in IETF circles).

Pat Calhoun's perspective
>Actually, the IETF-accepted term (as far as I can tell) is "collection of
>usage data", which can be used for capacity planning (of course, if you
happen
>to feed the data into your billing system, that's up to you :).

has IMHO the outlook that for what usage you cannot bill, that usage is
still usefull for traffic statistics, and I tend to agree that such data can
be the obejct of a value added service.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
> [mailto:owner-iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com]On Behalf Of Jonathan
> Rosenberg
> Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 2:29 PM
> To: Dean Willis
> Cc: Hoefelmeyer, Ralph (MCI); iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
> Subject: Re: IP Telphony Gateway metering
>
>
> Dean Willis wrote:
> >
> > Note the further slight change in subject. Billing, like pricing, is a
> > business issue. Metering is an engineering problem, and Lord Kelvin
> > would have it that measurement is a scientific one.
> >
> > Ralph asked:
> >
> > > Hello,
> > > Why not do flat rate billing based solely on QoS?
> > > The user signs up for a certain QoS level, and all
> > > of their traffic is carried with at least that
> > > level of QoS, with an allowable small deviation.
> > > This would take billing out of the gateway arena.
> >
> > I believe the answer is "regulatory". US regulations require IXCs to pay
> > LECS on a per-minute basis for call termination. This fee is a MAJOR
> > component of the cost of a PSTN Long Distance call. Similar charges
> > apply for international calls. Bypassing such fees is the main goal of
> > near-term arbitrage players. I believe there is also a turnaround charge
> > where LECs are paying ISPs for local calls terminated by the ISP.
> >
> > A gateway brings a call from Internet into PSTN or vice versa, which is
> > probably going to make it full into the same regulatory kettle.
>
> I think that there is really more than one thing to bill for here, and
> that different models (and metering requirements) apply to the various
> components. The things you might pay for in an IP telephony environnment
> are:
>
> 1. Qos in the IP network
> 2. gateway services
> 3. database queries (like name lookups)
> 4. execution of service logic (ala CPL)
> 5. proxy services (like some kind of mobility service in SIP)
>
> Perhaps flat rate makes sense of QoS (I pay $29.95 a month for gold
> service, $19.95 for regular, best effort). Dean gives good reasons why
> flat rate might not make sense for gateways. For services like database
> queries, things like per-minute billing don't even make sense, so flat
> rate or per-transaction probably is more appropriate. Note that not all
> of these components would be in every call; there are no gateways for an
> IP to IP call.
>
> Nothing prevents your service provider from rolling up these various
> services into one bill, but I think it would be nice to get these
> different components from different providers if the customer wants.
> Each, of course, requires monitoring and some means of reporting usage
> statistics to some servers that collect the data and generate bills or
> whatever. Based on this, it would make sense that (1) gateways report
> usage statistics for gateway usage, (2) COPS servers or bandwidth
> brokers or border elements provide QoS usage statistics, (3) and  SIP
> servers/gatekeepers provide proxy, service logic, and perhaps database
> query usage.
>
> -Jonathan R.
>
>
>
> --
> Jonathan D. Rosenberg                       Lucent Technologies
> Member of Technical Staff                   101 Crawfords Corner Rd.
> High Speed Networks Research                Holmdel, NJ 07733
> FAX:   (732) 834-5379                       Rm. 4C-526
> EMAIL: jdrosen@bell-labs.com
> URL: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~jdrosen
>
> ---------
> This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.
>


---------
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At 04:42 PM 1/21/99 -0800, Jim Toga wrote:
>
>Call admission by H.323 Gatekeepers can be used in this case to match
>provisioning with capacity.   The behaviour might exactly mimic the current
>PSTN.
>

There is unfortunately a fundamental difference between the PSTN behavior
and what an H.323 network can do. When the PSTN decides that there isn't
enough capacity, the end user gets a Network Busy signal and there is
nothing else s/he can do to affect the telephone network. This is because
of the fundamental distinction made in the PSTN between "NNI"
(network-network interfaces) and "UNI" (user-network interfaces). The
signalling which tells the switch "No you may NOT make that call" stays
entirely inside the network, and the business contracts and regulation that
bind operators guarantee that when that happens, the end user will not get
anything but a busy signal. He will not be able to mess things up for
anyone else.

But H.323 signalling is not NNI -- it goes all the way out the endpoint. So
if a gatekeeper tells an endpoint (which might be a terminal) "No you may
NOT make that call", and the endpoint can get via other means (say email)
the RTP address of the remote endpoint. He can blast away. It may sound
bad, and not many packets might get through, but he can certainly inject
the packets into the network and still mess things up for everybody else.

There is no way within H.323 to connect the permission that a gatekeeper
might or might not give, with the opening and closing of IP connectivity to
the endpoint, and there is in the PSTN.

Note that even if such a connection existed, it would not really help,
because there are many different kinds of traffic which affect capacity,
not just H.323: even if the Gatekeeper really could stop me from sending
RTP traffic from being sent when it forbids an H.323 call to complete, it
won't be able to stop me from sending Email, ftp, etc. 

The bottom line is that Gatekeepers are not enough, unfortunately, although
the analogous mechanism is enough in the PSTN -- because the business
contracts and laws are there and because there is only one single
application running (voice).

>>What if there are no servers? What if users try and contact each other
>>directly? In that case, you will need to make use of network QoS
>>management techniques. This is also not SIP specific. If two H.323
>>terminals communicate directly, you'll have the same problem. 
>
>This is exactly why the standard stipulates that _if_ Gatekeepers are
>present, they must be utilized.
>

Yes, and _if_ seatbelts are present, they must be utilized. The law says
so. But as long as there are cars which go on the highways even if you
don't buckle up, then innocent people are not going to get their very
precious little packets trashed because of people who don't listen when the
red "gatekeeper" light flashes on their dashboards.


Scott
 



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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Mon Jan 25 18:03:54 1999
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        Jim Toga <jim.toga@intel.com>
From: Scott Petrack <scott.petrack@metatel.com>
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At 02:35 PM 1/22/99 +1100, Douglas Clowes wrote:

>Let's see now, a firewall with proxies that only let through known
>protocols and check with the gatekeeper for H.323 admission. Scarey!

In H.323 you would probably use "gatekeeper routed calls" - that is, the
gatekeeper itself is the signalling proxy that only lets though known and
permitted signalling, and tells the relevant RTP firewall what to let
through. (But this is just quibbling with the words you use).

And if the signalling is SIP then you replace "gatekeeper" with "SIP proxy
server."

Although you can do it this way, unfortunately you have created -- the
phone system! That is, the RTP firewall looks a lot like a switch, because
you have to make certain that all the RTP traffic goes through that box.
The originating endpoint will never see the RTP address of the remote
endpoint, but only the address of the RTP firewall. So all of end-to-end
routing has been thrown away -- just like in the phone system.

Of course, similarly, we will need, SMTP firewalls and special DNS servers
which can give out addresses of MX machines which can do QoS email, and
other special DNS servers and HTTP firewalls which can do QoS web-browsing,
etc. etc. etc. In the end we will have overlaid 1000 different parallel
Internets on top of the current Internet. I know many people who share this
"dream". 

A better, more scaleable, goal, is to separate out the QoS infrastructure
from the needs of any particular application, and instead of having H.323
Gatekeepers, HTTP Gatekeepers, SMTP gatekeepers, etc. etc. etc., just
having an infrastructure for QoS that allows applications to seize the
required Internet resources without any reference to any particular
application.

It may end up being impossible to do, but it's the only hope that we'll get
QoS for all the Internet applications that need it.

It may well be that there is still a need for the single-application
servers, in order to enable really dumb hard-coded appliances that will not
want to deal with the QoS signalling themselves. But these servers will
need to hand-off decision-making to the real QoS infrastructure. 

Scott 


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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Mon Jan 25 18:13:58 1999
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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:09:01 -0500
From: Ping Pan <pingpan@dnrc.bell-labs.com>
Organization: Bell Labs, Lucent
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To: Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@mci.com>
Cc: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>,
        Dean Willis <Dean.Willis@mci.com>,
        "Hoefelmeyer, Ralph (MCI)" <Ralph.Hoefelmeyer@mci.com>,
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Subject: Re: IP Telphony Gateway metering
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Henry Sinnreich wrote:
> 
> It appears that for Internet-wide standard AA(A) and metering (instead of
> the 3rd (A)), there is some work cut out for a possible BOF -> WG to agree
> on
> 
> * Data excahnge with the AA(A) system,
> * Data exchange with the policy server using COPS,
> * Gateway metering,
> * RSVP and/or DiffServ metering,
> * IMHO a data format, why not XML?
> 

Hentry,

More importantly, we need to correlate metering information from
different applications. For example, SIP session duration is monitored
via some policy servers. However, the actual user data (with RSVP
enabled) may take a path that is completely different from what SIP
messages are going. The policy servers hence need to collect the data
information and map it to the corresponding SIP session to accounting
purposes. 

As for the data format, I have no problem with XML format if all network
components are a bunch of Unix/NT servers. For the conventional routers,
I doubt that they have spare CPU cycles to process XML messages. In the
future, I don't care if all routers run JAVA, but not for now, please.
:-) Why cannot we simply send more traditional protocol messages?

> Would be nice to agree on a framework and see if there is something missing
> or has to be written.
> Any interest in this?
>

Isn't AAA group trying to put one together? 
 
> Thanks, Henry
> 
>

Regards,

- Ping

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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Mon Jan 25 18:18:12 1999
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        "Jonathan Rosenberg" <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>
From: Scott Petrack <scott.petrack@metatel.com>
Subject: Re: SIP
Cc: "Henning Schulzrinne" <hgs@cs.columbia.edu>, <Hanlin_Fang@3com.com>,
        "Aishling" <irelanda@tcd.ie>, <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>,
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At 06:34 PM 1/22/99 -0500, Paul E. Jones wrote:

>
>But even mail and web services are not without problems.  Take a web browser
>written in 1995 and visit some of today's more elaborate web sites.  Create
>an e-mail with Microsoft's Outlook Express using HTML and send it to a user
>with a mail client written in 1995 (heck, send it to a Netscape user with
>up-to-date software).
>
>It is true that most of today's mail clients can understand SMTP, POP3,
>IMAP, HTML, MIME, etc.  It is also true that most of today's web browsers
>can support HTML 4.0, CSS, GIF, JPG, PNG, WAV, AU, MPEG, RealAudio, etc.
>However, it has not been without pain on the users-- they have had to
>upgrade their software every time a new "whiz-bang" feature was added.  Be
>prepared to upgrade your web browsers again soon as XML and XSL displace
>much of HTML and CSS and MP3 becomes a new important audio format on the
>web.
>
>We cannot and should not expect our telephone system to act this way.
>

With all due respect, this is really just because we are in the absolute
infancy of "Internet Based communication". The Web is less than 6 years
old, for goodness sake, and the PSTN is well over 100 years old. I believe
that there was quite a long time in the early days of the telephone when
you needed to have 2 or more phones on your desk if you wanted to talk to
people on different networks. 

(Actually, I have been looking for a long time for a good history of the
telephone communication up till about 1900-1920. If someone can recommend
something I'd be very grateful.)

You are absolutely correct that things are still changing much too fast,
and there is too much which does not yet exist, to imagine that we are
ready for a final global solution to IP based communications. This does not
mean that we shouldn't think very hard about how to acheive that goal,
however.

I do believe that a certain number of things are more stable than others,
and I would suggest that you confine your billions to those things in the
meantime (happily enough I have just formed a dynamite new startup which
takes traveller's checks ;-)).

Scott




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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Mon Jan 25 19:29:38 1999
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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:24:50 -0500
From: Henning Schulzrinne <hgs@cs.columbia.edu>
Organization: Columbia University, Dept. of Computer Science
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Scott Petrack wrote:
> 
> At 06:34 PM 1/22/99 -0500, Paul E. Jones wrote:
> 

> 
> (Actually, I have been looking for a long time for a good history of the
> telephone communication up till about 1900-1920. If someone can recommend
> something I'd be very grateful.)

See (Costs $10 and has tons of references, plus is a pretty good read:)

@BOOK{Frie95:Natural,
AUTHOR="Amy Friedlander",
TITLE="Natural Monopoly and Universal Service: Telephones and Telegraphs
in the U.S.  Communications Infrastructure, 1837-1940",
PUBLISHER="CNRI",
ADDRESS="Washington, DC",
YEAR=1995,
KEYWORDS="telephone; telegraph; history",
ABSTRACT="This study examines the history of the telegraph and telephone
industries in the United States from the perspectives of technology,
corporate strategy, politics, and economics.  Under the aegis of the
Bell Company and its successors, the telephone followed a path similar
to that pioneered in the 1860s by the telegraph giant, Western Union.
Indeed, the telephone itself was invented in the 1870s as an
unanticipated product of efforts to solve technological limitations of
telegraphy.  Like Western Union, Bell targeted communications among
urban, commercial interests (as opposed to private residential and/or
...",
URL="http://www.cnri.reston.va.us/series.html#teltel",
ENTRYBY=Sc
}


-- 
Henning Schulzrinne   http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs

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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Mon Jan 25 21:10:27 1999
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From: Guocai Deng <denggc@asiainfo.com>
To: Ping Pan <pingpan@dnrc.bell-labs.com>,
        Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@mci.com>
Cc: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>,
        Dean Willis <Dean.Willis@mci.com>,
        "Hoefelmeyer, Ralph (MCI)" <Ralph.Hoefelmeyer@mci.com>,
        iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
Subject: RE: IP Telphony Gateway metering
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	Ping Pan wrote:
>  
	> As for the data format, I have no problem with XML format if all
network
	> components are a bunch of Unix/NT servers. For the conventional
routers,
	> I doubt that they have spare CPU cycles to process XML messages.
In the
	> future, I don't care if all routers run JAVA, but not for now,
please.
	> :-) Why cannot we simply send more traditional protocol messages?

	I think you perference to Access Router. If the Acess Router
integrited some components like gatekeeper, they do need to precess XML
messages because they usually have enough resource to do this. if the Access
Router does not integrite any components like gatekeeper, they need not to
process XML message, it can leave the job to gatekeeper or others. It just
need to act as an proxy authentication server and need simple info to get
the QoS parameters. it is the response to gatekeeper to translate the info
from XML format to some other simple message format.




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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Mon Jan 25 21:48:30 1999
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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:44:32 -0500
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Organization: Bell Labs, Lucent
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To: Guocai Deng <denggc@asiainfo.com>
Cc: Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@mci.com>,
        Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>,
        Dean Willis <Dean.Willis@mci.com>,
        "Hoefelmeyer, Ralph (MCI)" <Ralph.Hoefelmeyer@mci.com>,
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Guocai Deng wrote:
> 
>         I think you perference to Access Router. If the Acess Router
> integrited some components like gatekeeper, they do need to precess XML
> messages because they usually have enough resource to do this. if the Access
> Router does not integrite any components like gatekeeper, they need not to
> process XML message, it can leave the job to gatekeeper or others. It just
> need to act as an proxy authentication server and need simple info to get
> the QoS parameters. it is the response to gatekeeper to translate the info
> from XML format to some other simple message format.

But the AAA protocol work for many applications outside access networks.
We can envision the protocol is used to exchange information between
carrier routers. Many peer-to-peer applications may take place between
border routers. In that sense, I hope we are not restricting ourselves
with some sophisticated format like XML.

--
Ping Pan    phone: (732)-332-6744   fax: (732)-834-5379

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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Tue Jan 26 08:31:13 1999
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From: Francois Menard Distribution List Management Account <fm-listproc@mediatrix.com>
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Subject: www.openh323.org
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FYI.
It seems that this information was not well disseminated among the IETF
activists.  
-=Francois=-
----------
The following letter was sent on December 5 1998 to a small number of people
who had contacted me regarding working on the OpenH323 project. It was
intended to kickoff the OpenH323 project by explaining where the project had
come from, and raising some issues to get everyone thinking along the same
lines. 
If you want join the fun, I suggest you read the letter, join the mailing
list <list.html> and start thinking! 

To those interested in participating in an effort to create Open Source
H.323 Protocol suite.
5 December 1998
Dear Internet User,
You've received this email because you have previously expressed interest in
participating in an Open Source effort to create a H.323 protocol stack call
the Linux Voxilla H.323 Project. I thought you might be interested in
hearing about some recent changes to this project, and being involved in
getting the project off the ground.
History
I started this project after seeing an article on http://slashdot.org about
Rich Bodo's Voxilla project at http://www.voxilla.org. My company,
Equivalence, had been contemplating starting an Open Source H.323 project
for some time, and this looked like a good way to start it off.
Rich was very supportive of the whole idea, and I created a new web site at
http://www.voxillaequival.net <index.html> to be the home site for the Linux
Voxilla H.323 Project. Unfortunately, things seem to stall soon after that,
and not a lot of progress has been made since then.
Also unfortunately, Rich Bodo seems to have dropped out of contact. The
moderated "voxilla" mailing list does not seem to be be issuing any new
messages, and Rich isn't answering his emails. http://www.voxilla.org hasn't
been changed for a while either.
(UPDATE - 7 Dec 98: Rich received a copy of this message, and is now back in
contact. Click here for more information <voxilla_back.html>)
So, I've decided that the time has come to move on. We wish Rich well, and I
would like to personally thank him for making me get off my butt and do
something about Open Source H.323. If you ever read this email, Rich, please
don't take this as a criticism of your efforts or ideas, or think we are
trying to throw you out of the project. You will always be welcome!
OpenH323
The Linux Voxilla H.323 Project has been renamed OpenH323 to reflect the
current trend in Open Source projects, and has a new home at
http://www.openh323.equival.net <index.html>. This site has been updated to
reflect the new name and the new contact email addresses. The old
http://www.voxilla.equival.net <index.html> URL still works, but just maps
straight to the new site. 
The domain name "openh323.org" has also been applied for by Equivalence on
behalf of the OpenH323 project and http://www.openh323.org will be up and
running shortly.
A new, unmoderated, majordomo mailing list has also been created for this
project. Thist list is called "openh323" and is hosted at
majordom@equival.net You have already been subscribed to this list - to get
more information see http://www.openh323.equival.net/list.html. <list.html>
Getting started
I would like to discuss some issues regarding the start of OpenH323 with
some people who have time to spare and are interested in contributing to the
early, hard stages of getting something going. 
The original concept behind Equivalence being involved in an OpenH323
project was that we would make our multi-platform, C++ code library Open
Source, and hence freely available to all OpenH323 contributors. We have
developed this code library, called PwLib, over the past four years, and it
allows developers to write applications that are portable across Linux x86,
Linux PPC, Solaris Sparc, Windows 95/98, Windows NT, and FreeBSD x86. 
By "portable", we mean just recompile the application source code, link with
the appropriate platform specific library, and run the program. No ifdefs,
no other changes required. It fully supports all major system facilities
such as multithreading (it does cooroperative multi-tasking on platforms
that don't have threads) and TCP/IP sockets, and has a full C++ container
library with support for abstract data structures such as queues, arrays and
sorted lists. We have found this library invaluable, and we use it in all of
our commercial products. It compiles with MSVC C++ 5.0 on Windows, and uses
GCC with GLIBC on the various Unices.
Included with this library would be our ASN parser which is capable of
converting the standard H.323 and H.225 ASN specifications in C++ classes
that can be compiled and linked with the PWLib class library. We have PER
encoding and decoding functions, and the resultant code has been used in our
own H.323 product, PhonePatch, so we know the H.323 and H.225 PDU
encoding/decoding works correctly.
Questions for Discussion
1) Is using PwLib a good idea? We think it is, because it gives us platform
independence for stuff like threads and because we like C++. It also means
we have a "ready to go" ASN compiler (a non-trivial task for those who've
tried to write one!). Others might not like it because it is yet more code
to come to grips with, and they don't like C++. Also, someone else might
have a better ASN compiler that can be thrown into the ring. I'd like to see
some discussion of this before we go much further.
2) What sort of approach should we use? I don't think there is any doubt
about creating a library, rather than just creating a full-blown app, but
should this library be multi-threaded? Single-threaded? What sort of API
should be used? People with experience in other H.323 stacks will
undoubtedly have some ideas here - let's hear them and get them down on
paper (HTML?) where other can see them.
Regards
Craig Southeren
craigs@equival.com.au <mailto:craigs@equival.com.au>



---------
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At 13:02 1999-01-25 -0500, Scott Petrack wrote:
>At 06:34 PM 1/22/99 -0500, Paul E. Jones wrote:
>
>>
>>But even mail and web services are not without problems.  Take a web browser
>>written in 1995 and visit some of today's more elaborate web sites.  Create
>>an e-mail with Microsoft's Outlook Express using HTML and send it to a user
>>with a mail client written in 1995 (heck, send it to a Netscape user with
>>up-to-date software).
>>
>>It is true that most of today's mail clients can understand SMTP, POP3,
>>IMAP, HTML, MIME, etc.  It is also true that most of today's web browsers
>>can support HTML 4.0, CSS, GIF, JPG, PNG, WAV, AU, MPEG, RealAudio, etc.
>>However, it has not been without pain on the users-- they have had to
>>upgrade their software every time a new "whiz-bang" feature was added.  Be
>>prepared to upgrade your web browsers again soon as XML and XSL displace
>>much of HTML and CSS and MP3 becomes a new important audio format on the
>>web.
>>
>>We cannot and should not expect our telephone system to act this way.
>>
>
>With all due respect, this is really just because we are in the absolute
>infancy of "Internet Based communication". The Web is less than 6 years
>old, for goodness sake, and the PSTN is well over 100 years old. I believe
>that there was quite a long time in the early days of the telephone when
>you needed to have 2 or more phones on your desk if you wanted to talk to
>people on different networks. 

Hey Scott,

I used to work at a place (not that long ago) where I had those two phones
on my desk. The reason was not that they were not compatible, just that
they were not that connected. The internal phone system was a dial it
yourself one, while the external one was a lady with plugs and cords and
you asked her to dial your number for you. Amazing!

But with that antique phone system, she could still dial me on my GSM
mobile, which is about the same age as the Web. And it would work - much
better that the email system, or many parts of the web.

Try replying to
"=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0.Fred.Bloggs[mailto:fbloggs@somewhere.com.au]=20" to tell
them that you can't read their HTML crap - I mean "message". And see your
mail client "spit the dummy" yet again.

>(Actually, I have been looking for a long time for a good history of the
>telephone communication up till about 1900-1920. If someone can recommend
>something I'd be very grateful.)

Actually, I think that the "answer" to all of this organized chaos was the
CCITT, now the ITU.

>You are absolutely correct that things are still changing much too fast,
>and there is too much which does not yet exist, to imagine that we are
>ready for a final global solution to IP based communications. This does not
>mean that we shouldn't think very hard about how to acheive that goal,
>however.

A lot of people tollerate change very well. Hey, some of us actually enjoy
it - something new to play with every day. But, there is a big slice of the
consuming public out there who don't want to upgrade every Thursday. They
don't want to find out that their new IP phone can't talk to any other
phone that was built outside the window of two weeks of the date that
theirs was built. The sort of phone that these consumers are wanting to pay
for is --- an ITU phone (just like the black one, only cheaper to run).

>I do believe that a certain number of things are more stable than others,
>and I would suggest that you confine your billions to those things in the
>meantime (happily enough I have just formed a dynamite new startup which
>takes traveller's checks ;-)).

And when the market for "whiz-bang" settles down, and stabilizes, it too
will become commodity. But, there will be a minimum set of common
capabilities which will allow all of them with the compliance sticker to
interwork (as per the implementation agreement and compliance test
requirements).

Douglas

>Scott
>
>
>
>
>---------
>This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.
>
>


---------
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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Tue Jan 26 20:13:59 1999
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From: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Reply-To: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>
Subject: RE: IP Telphony Gateway metering
To: Guocai Deng <denggc@asiainfo.com>
Cc: Ping Pan <pingpan@dnrc.bell-labs.com>,
        Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@mci.com>,
        Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>,
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> 	Ping Pan wrote:
> >  
> 	> As for the data format, I have no problem with XML format if all
> network
> 	> components are a bunch of Unix/NT servers. For the conventional
> routers,
> 	> I doubt that they have spare CPU cycles to process XML messages.
> In the
> 	> future, I don't care if all routers run JAVA, but not for now,
> please.
> 	> :-) Why cannot we simply send more traditional protocol messages?
> 
> 	I think you perference to Access Router. If the Acess Router
> integrited some components like gatekeeper, they do need to precess XML
> messages because they usually have enough resource to do this. if the Access
> Router does not integrite any components like gatekeeper, they need not to
> process XML message, it can leave the job to gatekeeper or others. It just
> need to act as an proxy authentication server and need simple info to get
> the QoS parameters. it is the response to gatekeeper to translate the info
> from XML format to some other simple message format.


I beg to differ.

As soon as the access router finds itself with more CPU we either increase the
ingress or egress trunk speeds (i.e. 33.6->56k), add more services to the box
(i.e. IP Telephony), or increase its port density.

Rarely have I ever heard of an access router with extra CPU capacity.

PatC 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------
> This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.



---------
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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Tue Jan 26 20:14:00 1999
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        Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@mci.com>,
        Dean Willis <Dean.Willis@mci.com>,
        "Hoefelmeyer, Ralph (MCI)" <Ralph.Hoefelmeyer@mci.com>,
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pcalhoun@eng.sun.com wrote:
> 
> > Henry Sinnreich wrote:
> > >
> > > It appears that for Internet-wide standard AA(A) and metering (instead of
> > > the 3rd (A)), there is some work cut out for a possible BOF -> WG to agree
> > > on
> > >
> > > * Data excahnge with the AA(A) system,
> > > * Data exchange with the policy server using COPS,
> > > * Gateway metering,
> > > * RSVP and/or DiffServ metering,
> > > * IMHO a data format, why not XML?
> 
> Henry,
> 
> I know your feelings about XML, and perhaps you are correct, but I have a
> question. Is it really necessary for the router to spew out XML (pages?), as
> opposed to a much simpler (and easier to parse) protocol, and have the AAA
> server simply record the information in an XML format? It seems like this
> would be much simpler for the embedded devices, and it would solve your
> real-time usage viewing requirements.
> 
> Perhaps this thread really belongs in the AAA list.

Yup. iptel isn't doing billing, pricing, or metering.

-Jonathan R.


-- 
Jonathan D. Rosenberg                       Lucent Technologies
Member of Technical Staff                   101 Crawfords Corner Rd.
High Speed Networks Research                Holmdel, NJ 07733
FAX:   (732) 834-5379                       Rm. 4C-526
EMAIL: jdrosen@bell-labs.com
URL: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~jdrosen

---------
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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Tue Jan 26 20:14:01 1999
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From: "Henry Sinnreich" <henry.sinnreich@mci.com>
To: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>,
        "Ping Pan" <pingpan@dnrc.bell-labs.com>, <ietf-aaa@external.cisco.com>
Cc: "Jonathan Rosenberg" <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>,
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        "Hoefelmeyer, Ralph (MCI)" <Ralph.Hoefelmeyer@mci.com>,
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Subject: RE: IP Telphony Gateway metering
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Pat wrote:
>Is it really necessary for the router to spew out XML
> (pages?), as
> opposed to a much simpler (and easier to parse) protocol, and have the AAA
> server simply record the information in an XML format?

I believe you have it right here, since changing the data format in routers
is simply not doable. We also don't yet understand or simply don't know the
computational load required by XML during peak traffic loads. Or the
scalability when handling 100k's of calls in the peak of the busy hour. If
however, XML is delivered by the AAA servers IMHO, we get the best of both
worlds.

>It seems like this
> would be much simpler for the embedded devices, and it would solve your
> real-time usage viewing requirements.

Next generation embedded devices could possibly use a common parser for
HTML, SIP and XML over a very thin operating system.
Would need to involve embedded device and protocol designers to explore the
best web-like approach.

Any other opinions on the list?

> Perhaps this thread really belongs in the AAA list.
>
> PatC

Agree and have addedd <ietf-aaa@external.cisco.com> in the header to see if
of interest.

Thanks, Henry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcalhoun@eng.sun.com [mailto:Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 8:46 AM
> To: Ping Pan
> Cc: Henry Sinnreich; Jonathan Rosenberg; Dean Willis; Hoefelmeyer, Ralph
> (MCI); iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
> Subject: Re: IP Telphony Gateway metering
>
>
> > Henry Sinnreich wrote:
> > >
> > > It appears that for Internet-wide standard AA(A) and metering
> (instead of
> > > the 3rd (A)), there is some work cut out for a possible BOF
> -> WG to agree
> > > on
> > >
> > > * Data excahnge with the AA(A) system,
> > > * Data exchange with the policy server using COPS,
> > > * Gateway metering,
> > > * RSVP and/or DiffServ metering,
> > > * IMHO a data format, why not XML?
>
> Henry,
>
> I know your feelings about XML, and perhaps you are correct, but I have a
> question. Is it really necessary for the router to spew out XML
> (pages?), as
> opposed to a much simpler (and easier to parse) protocol, and have the AAA
> server simply record the information in an XML format? It seems like this
> would be much simpler for the embedded devices, and it would solve your
> real-time usage viewing requirements.
>
> Perhaps this thread really belongs in the AAA list.
>
> PatC
> > >
> >
> > Hentry,
> >
> > More importantly, we need to correlate metering information from
> > different applications. For example, SIP session duration is monitored
> > via some policy servers. However, the actual user data (with RSVP
> > enabled) may take a path that is completely different from what SIP
> > messages are going. The policy servers hence need to collect the data
> > information and map it to the corresponding SIP session to accounting
> > purposes.
> >
> > As for the data format, I have no problem with XML format if all network
> > components are a bunch of Unix/NT servers. For the conventional routers,
> > I doubt that they have spare CPU cycles to process XML messages. In the
> > future, I don't care if all routers run JAVA, but not for now, please.
> > :-) Why cannot we simply send more traditional protocol messages?
> >
> > > Would be nice to agree on a framework and see if there is
> something missing
> > > or has to be written.
> > > Any interest in this?
> > >
> >
> > Isn't AAA group trying to put one together?
> >
> > > Thanks, Henry
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > - Ping
> >
> > ---------
> > This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.
>
>


---------
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From: "Henry Sinnreich" <henry.sinnreich@mci.com>
To: "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>,
        "Ping Pan" <pingpan@dnrc.bell-labs.com>, <ietf-aaa@external.cisco.com>,
        <aaa-wg@merit.edu>
Cc: "Jonathan Rosenberg" <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>,
        "Dean Willis" <Dean.Willis@mci.com>,
        "Hoefelmeyer, Ralph (MCI)" <Ralph.Hoefelmeyer@mci.com>,
        <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
Subject: RE: IP Telphony Gateway metering
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:54:59 -0500
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Pat wrote:
>Is it really necessary for the router to spew out XML
> (pages?), as
> opposed to a much simpler (and easier to parse) protocol, and have the AAA
> server simply record the information in an XML format?

I believe you have it right here, since changing the data format in routers
is simply not doable. We also don't yet understand or simply don't know the
computational load required by XML during peak traffic loads. Or the
scalability when handling 100k's of calls in the peak of the busy hour. If
however, XML is delivered by the AAA servers IMHO, we get the best of both
worlds.

>It seems like this
> would be much simpler for the embedded devices, and it would solve your
> real-time usage viewing requirements.

Next generation embedded devices could possibly use a common parser for
HTML, SIP and XML over a very thin operating system.
Would need to involve embedded device and protocol designers to explore the
best web-like approach.

Any other opinions on the list?

> Perhaps this thread really belongs in the AAA list.
>
> PatC

Agree and have addedd <ietf-aaa@external.cisco.com> and <aaa-wg@merit.edu>
in the header to see if of interest.

Thanks, Henry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pcalhoun@eng.sun.com [mailto:Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 8:46 AM
> To: Ping Pan
> Cc: Henry Sinnreich; Jonathan Rosenberg; Dean Willis; Hoefelmeyer, Ralph
> (MCI); iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com
> Subject: Re: IP Telphony Gateway metering
>
>
> > Henry Sinnreich wrote:
> > >
> > > It appears that for Internet-wide standard AA(A) and metering
> (instead of
> > > the 3rd (A)), there is some work cut out for a possible BOF
> -> WG to agree
> > > on
> > >
> > > * Data excahnge with the AA(A) system,
> > > * Data exchange with the policy server using COPS,
> > > * Gateway metering,
> > > * RSVP and/or DiffServ metering,
> > > * IMHO a data format, why not XML?
>
> Henry,
>
> I know your feelings about XML, and perhaps you are correct, but I have a
> question. Is it really necessary for the router to spew out XML
> (pages?), as
> opposed to a much simpler (and easier to parse) protocol, and have the AAA
> server simply record the information in an XML format? It seems like this
> would be much simpler for the embedded devices, and it would solve your
> real-time usage viewing requirements.
>
> Perhaps this thread really belongs in the AAA list.
>
> PatC
> > >
> >
> > Hentry,
> >
> > More importantly, we need to correlate metering information from
> > different applications. For example, SIP session duration is monitored
> > via some policy servers. However, the actual user data (with RSVP
> > enabled) may take a path that is completely different from what SIP
> > messages are going. The policy servers hence need to collect the data
> > information and map it to the corresponding SIP session to accounting
> > purposes.
> >
> > As for the data format, I have no problem with XML format if all network
> > components are a bunch of Unix/NT servers. For the conventional routers,
> > I doubt that they have spare CPU cycles to process XML messages. In the
> > future, I don't care if all routers run JAVA, but not for now, please.
> > :-) Why cannot we simply send more traditional protocol messages?
> >
> > > Would be nice to agree on a framework and see if there is
> something missing
> > > or has to be written.
> > > Any interest in this?
> > >
> >
> > Isn't AAA group trying to put one together?
> >
> > > Thanks, Henry
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > - Ping
> >
> > ---------
> > This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.
>
>


---------
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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Tue Jan 26 20:17:58 1999
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From: Guocai Deng <denggc@asiainfo.com>
To: Ping Pan <pingpan@dnrc.bell-labs.com>
Cc: Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@mci.com>,
        Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>,
        Dean Willis <Dean.Willis@mci.com>,
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Subject: RE: IP Telphony Gateway metering
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	Ping Pan wrote:

	>Guocai Deng wrote:
	>> 
	>>         I think you perference to Access Router. If the Acess
Router
> >>   integrited some components like gatekeeper, they do need to precess
> XML
> >>  messages because they usually have enough resource to do this. if the
> Access
> >>  Router does not integrite any components like gatekeeper, they need
> not to
> >>  process XML message, it can leave the job to gatekeeper or others. It
> just
> >>  need to act as an proxy authentication server and need simple info to
> get
> >>  the QoS parameters. it is the response to gatekeeper to translate the
> info
> >>  from XML format to some other simple message format.
> 
	> But the AAA protocol work for many applications outside access
networks.
	> We can envision the protocol is used to exchange information
between
	> carrier routers. Many peer-to-peer applications may take place
between
	> border routers. In that sense, I hope we are not restricting
ourselves
	> with some sophisticated format like XML.

	I think that AAA for Network Infra Providers and AAA for ITSPs
Services to end customer are different. They are  in different
	node in a  business link. ITSPs should pay to Network Infra
Providers, and VoIP users should pay to ITSPs. If ITSP and Network Infra
Provider are the same carrier, It can process the AAA for end customer and
AAA Between Network Infro Provider (Such as
	DS Domains) in different sectors. AAA Between Network Infra Provider
may be more aggr. than AAA between ITSP and end users, and when VoIP users
care of voice quality and price, they don't care of how to obtain the QoS,
how to offer the QoS leave
	to ITSP to care. 

---------
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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Tue Jan 26 21:25:35 1999
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Scott,

A couple of quick comments...

1) The 'switch' does not live in the 'network'.  The reason for existence
(in this discussion,) I thought, was for security aspects.  The whole point
is that you _want_ to keep the addressing/direct access isolated (or at
least monitored).  If you have a completely armored protocol(s)/box then
you don't need it.  ('course try and convince any IT dept...)

2) You can certainly reserve/deliver QOS on a 'generic' IP level.  It would
seem that if you want to allocate the QOS on an application basis (so that
we get "QOS for all the applications that need it") -- somebody has to be
coordinating at this level.  If this maps into an abstraction like DIFSRV
that's fine, but it still can't be a free-for-all with reservations....
Otherwise you simply end up with WinSock2 calls to RSVP... ;-)

jiimt.



At 12:44 PM 1/25/99 -0500, Scott Petrack wrote:
>At 02:35 PM 1/22/99 +1100, Douglas Clowes wrote:
>
>>Let's see now, a firewall with proxies that only let through known
>>protocols and check with the gatekeeper for H.323 admission. Scarey!
>
>In H.323 you would probably use "gatekeeper routed calls" - that is, the
>gatekeeper itself is the signalling proxy that only lets though known and
>permitted signalling, and tells the relevant RTP firewall what to let
>through. (But this is just quibbling with the words you use).
>
>And if the signalling is SIP then you replace "gatekeeper" with "SIP proxy
>server."
>
>Although you can do it this way, unfortunately you have created -- the
>phone system! That is, the RTP firewall looks a lot like a switch, because
>you have to make certain that all the RTP traffic goes through that box.
>The originating endpoint will never see the RTP address of the remote
>endpoint, but only the address of the RTP firewall. So all of end-to-end
>routing has been thrown away -- just like in the phone system.
>
>Of course, similarly, we will need, SMTP firewalls and special DNS servers
>which can give out addresses of MX machines which can do QoS email, and
>other special DNS servers and HTTP firewalls which can do QoS web-browsing,
>etc. etc. etc. In the end we will have overlaid 1000 different parallel
>Internets on top of the current Internet. I know many people who share this
>"dream". 
>
>A better, more scaleable, goal, is to separate out the QoS infrastructure
>from the needs of any particular application, and instead of having H.323
>Gatekeepers, HTTP Gatekeepers, SMTP gatekeepers, etc. etc. etc., just
>having an infrastructure for QoS that allows applications to seize the
>required Internet resources without any reference to any particular
>application.
>
>It may end up being impossible to do, but it's the only hope that we'll get
>QoS for all the Internet applications that need it.
>
>It may well be that there is still a need for the single-application
>servers, in order to enable really dumb hard-coded appliances that will not
>want to deal with the QoS signalling themselves. But these servers will
>need to hand-off decision-making to the real QoS infrastructure. 
>
>Scott 
>

---------
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Subject: Re: IP Telphony Gateway metering
To: Ping Pan <pingpan@dnrc.bell-labs.com>
Cc: Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@mci.com>,
        Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>,
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> Henry Sinnreich wrote:
> > 
> > It appears that for Internet-wide standard AA(A) and metering (instead of
> > the 3rd (A)), there is some work cut out for a possible BOF -> WG to agree
> > on
> > 
> > * Data excahnge with the AA(A) system,
> > * Data exchange with the policy server using COPS,
> > * Gateway metering,
> > * RSVP and/or DiffServ metering,
> > * IMHO a data format, why not XML?

Henry,

I know your feelings about XML, and perhaps you are correct, but I have a
question. Is it really necessary for the router to spew out XML (pages?), as
opposed to a much simpler (and easier to parse) protocol, and have the AAA
server simply record the information in an XML format? It seems like this
would be much simpler for the embedded devices, and it would solve your
real-time usage viewing requirements.

Perhaps this thread really belongs in the AAA list.

PatC
> > 
> 
> Hentry,
> 
> More importantly, we need to correlate metering information from
> different applications. For example, SIP session duration is monitored
> via some policy servers. However, the actual user data (with RSVP
> enabled) may take a path that is completely different from what SIP
> messages are going. The policy servers hence need to collect the data
> information and map it to the corresponding SIP session to accounting
> purposes. 
> 
> As for the data format, I have no problem with XML format if all network
> components are a bunch of Unix/NT servers. For the conventional routers,
> I doubt that they have spare CPU cycles to process XML messages. In the
> future, I don't care if all routers run JAVA, but not for now, please.
> :-) Why cannot we simply send more traditional protocol messages?
> 
> > Would be nice to agree on a framework and see if there is something missing
> > or has to be written.
> > Any interest in this?
> >
> 
> Isn't AAA group trying to put one together? 
>  
> > Thanks, Henry
> > 
> >
> 
> Regards,
> 
> - Ping
> 
> ---------
> This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.



---------
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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Tue Jan 26 21:26:25 1999
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From: Jim Toga <jim.toga@intel.com>
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Scott,

some more (with all due respect :-)  ) rebuttal....

(this could be start of some many long discussions.....)


jimt.


At 05:46 PM 1/25/99 -0500, Scott Petrack wrote:
>At 04:42 PM 1/21/99 -0800, Jim Toga wrote:
>>
>>Call admission by H.323 Gatekeepers can be used in this case to match
>>provisioning with capacity.   The behaviour might exactly mimic the current
>>PSTN.
>>
>
>There is unfortunately a fundamental difference between the PSTN behavior
>and what an H.323 network can do. When the PSTN decides that there isn't
>enough capacity, the end user gets a Network Busy signal and there is
>nothing else s/he can do to affect the telephone network. This is because
>of the fundamental distinction made in the PSTN between "NNI"
>(network-network interfaces) and "UNI" (user-network interfaces). The
>signalling which tells the switch "No you may NOT make that call" stays
>entirely inside the network, and the business contracts and regulation that
>bind operators guarantee that when that happens, the end user will not get
>anything but a busy signal. He will not be able to mess things up for
>anyone else.
>
>But H.323 signalling is not NNI -- it goes all the way out the endpoint. 

Not if it doesn't get the address resolved from the GK.

>So
>if a gatekeeper tells an endpoint (which might be a terminal) "No you may
>NOT make that call", and the endpoint can get via other means (say email)
>the RTP address of the remote endpoint. He can blast away. 

Only if the two are in colusion with the same 'illegal' protocols.  I can
do all sorts of things if I were sufficiently sophisticated and have access
to the shared medium. I'm not saying that every implementation is
'correctly' written or behaves well, simply that the protocol (even SIP)
doesn't disallow from creating a working, tight system.


>It may sound
>bad, and not many packets might get through, but he can certainly inject
>the packets into the network and still mess things up for everybody else.

YADOSA  (yet another denial-of-service attack)

>
>There is no way within H.323 to connect the permission that a gatekeeper
>might or might not give, with the opening and closing of IP connectivity to
>the endpoint, and there is in the PSTN.

In a re-programmable system - agreed.

>
>Note that even if such a connection existed, it would not really help,
>because there are many different kinds of traffic which affect capacity,
>not just H.323: even if the Gatekeeper really could stop me from sending
>RTP traffic from being sent when it forbids an H.323 call to complete, it
>won't be able to stop me from sending Email, ftp, etc. 

Agreed.  Two different sides to the QOS coin.  

Make sure application X doesn't step on applications A, B, C....  
Make sure application X doesn't get stepped on by appications A, B, C....


>
>The bottom line is that Gatekeepers are not enough, unfortunately, although
>the analogous mechanism is enough in the PSTN -- because the business
>contracts and laws are there and because there is only one single
>application running (voice).

I agree that GKs are not enough - by themselves.  I'm not sure that I agree
that this has anything to do with protocols or single media.  The PSTN
model works because the barrier to connections (physical) is pretty high.
I _have_ to have a wire (or cell site). If I climb the pole outside my
neighbors house or put alligator clips on his NID, I've 'hacked' the
network and done denial of service on his phone.  Obviously I can't get
'services' that aren't allocated to that line, but whatever resources
aren't strictly 'monitored' I can appropriate.


>
>>>What if there are no servers? What if users try and contact each other
>>>directly? In that case, you will need to make use of network QoS
>>>management techniques. This is also not SIP specific. If two H.323
>>>terminals communicate directly, you'll have the same problem. 
>>
>>This is exactly why the standard stipulates that _if_ Gatekeepers are
>>present, they must be utilized.
>>
>
>Yes, and _if_ seatbelts are present, they must be utilized. The law says
>so. But as long as there are cars which go on the highways even if you
>don't buckle up, then innocent people are not going to get their very
>precious little packets trashed because of people who don't listen when the
>red "gatekeeper" light flashes on their dashboards.
>

Entirely agree that there are no standards police.  This is why there is a
public key/checksum in cable boxes.  It may be that that is what is requred
by IP applications some day to authenticate tamper-proofing. 

Car analogy is kind of weak ;-) but, to carry it further;  I'll take a
head-on with a five-point harness against you with a flashing red light any
day... 
(This implies that routers etc... act as the laws of physics in this case)


>
>Scott
> 
>
>
>
>---------
>This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.
>
+1-503-264-8816(voice)              Intel - Hillsboro, OR
 mailto:jim.toga@intel.com         mailto:james.toga@ties.itu.int 
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To: "Douglas Clowes" <dclowes@ozemail.com.au>,
        "Scott Petrack" <scott.petrack@metatel.com>,
        "Paul E. Jones" <paul.jones@ties.itu.int>,
        "Jonathan Rosenberg" <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>
Cc: "Henning Schulzrinne" <hgs@cs.columbia.edu>, <Hanlin_Fang@3com.com>,
        "Aishling" <irelanda@tcd.ie>, <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>,
        <confctrl@isi.edu>
Subject: RE: SIP
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:46:15 -0500
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Douglas wrote:
The sort of phone that these consumers are
> wanting to pay
> for is --- an ITU phone (just like the black one, only cheaper to run).

Why don't you just keep it and let us do IP?

Henry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Douglas Clowes [mailto:dclowes@ozemail.com.au]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 6:15 PM
> To: Scott Petrack; Paul E. Jones; Henry Sinnreich; Jonathan Rosenberg
> Cc: Henning Schulzrinne; Hanlin_Fang@3com.com; Aishling;
> iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com; confctrl@isi.edu
> Subject: Re: SIP
>
>
> At 13:02 1999-01-25 -0500, Scott Petrack wrote:
> >At 06:34 PM 1/22/99 -0500, Paul E. Jones wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>But even mail and web services are not without problems.  Take
> a web browser
> >>written in 1995 and visit some of today's more elaborate web
> sites.  Create
> >>an e-mail with Microsoft's Outlook Express using HTML and send
> it to a user
> >>with a mail client written in 1995 (heck, send it to a Netscape
> user with
> >>up-to-date software).
> >>
> >>It is true that most of today's mail clients can understand SMTP, POP3,
> >>IMAP, HTML, MIME, etc.  It is also true that most of today's
> web browsers
> >>can support HTML 4.0, CSS, GIF, JPG, PNG, WAV, AU, MPEG, RealAudio, etc.
> >>However, it has not been without pain on the users-- they have had to
> >>upgrade their software every time a new "whiz-bang" feature was
> added.  Be
> >>prepared to upgrade your web browsers again soon as XML and XSL displace
> >>much of HTML and CSS and MP3 becomes a new important audio format on the
> >>web.
> >>
> >>We cannot and should not expect our telephone system to act this way.
> >>
> >
> >With all due respect, this is really just because we are in the absolute
> >infancy of "Internet Based communication". The Web is less than 6 years
> >old, for goodness sake, and the PSTN is well over 100 years old.
> I believe
> >that there was quite a long time in the early days of the telephone when
> >you needed to have 2 or more phones on your desk if you wanted to talk to
> >people on different networks.
>
> Hey Scott,
>
> I used to work at a place (not that long ago) where I had those two phones
> on my desk. The reason was not that they were not compatible, just that
> they were not that connected. The internal phone system was a dial it
> yourself one, while the external one was a lady with plugs and cords and
> you asked her to dial your number for you. Amazing!
>
> But with that antique phone system, she could still dial me on my GSM
> mobile, which is about the same age as the Web. And it would work - much
> better that the email system, or many parts of the web.
>
> Try replying to
> "=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0.Fred.Bloggs[mailto:fbloggs@somewhere.com.au]=20" to tell
> them that you can't read their HTML crap - I mean "message". And see your
> mail client "spit the dummy" yet again.
>
> >(Actually, I have been looking for a long time for a good history of the
> >telephone communication up till about 1900-1920. If someone can recommend
> >something I'd be very grateful.)
>
> Actually, I think that the "answer" to all of this organized chaos was the
> CCITT, now the ITU.
>
> >You are absolutely correct that things are still changing much too fast,
> >and there is too much which does not yet exist, to imagine that we are
> >ready for a final global solution to IP based communications.
> This does not
> >mean that we shouldn't think very hard about how to acheive that goal,
> >however.
>
> A lot of people tollerate change very well. Hey, some of us actually enjoy
> it - something new to play with every day. But, there is a big
> slice of the
> consuming public out there who don't want to upgrade every Thursday. They
> don't want to find out that their new IP phone can't talk to any other
> phone that was built outside the window of two weeks of the date that
> theirs was built. The sort of phone that these consumers are
> wanting to pay
> for is --- an ITU phone (just like the black one, only cheaper to run).
>
> >I do believe that a certain number of things are more stable than others,
> >and I would suggest that you confine your billions to those things in the
> >meantime (happily enough I have just formed a dynamite new startup which
> >takes traveller's checks ;-)).
>
> And when the market for "whiz-bang" settles down, and stabilizes, it too
> will become commodity. But, there will be a minimum set of common
> capabilities which will allow all of them with the compliance sticker to
> interwork (as per the implementation agreement and compliance test
> requirements).
>
> Douglas
>
> >Scott
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >---------
> >This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.
> >
> >
>


---------
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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Wed Jan 27 02:09:21 1999
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Message-ID: <01BE49EB.A12EBE90@hss056.hss.hns.com>
From: Alok Mittal <amittal@hss.hns.com>
To: "'iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com'" <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
Subject: Intelligent Services in H.323 Networks
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:53:14 -0000
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Hi
 
 I have a query that hopefully belongs to this list --

 Is there any effort underway to provide IN/AIN like services
 in H.323 networks in a standardized manner, and to inter-
 operate with similar services in PSTN?

Thanks!
Alok

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Alok Mittal	
Technical Leader,	Hughes Software Systems
Prestige Opal, 146 Infantry Road, Bangalore - 560001
Tel: +91-80-2286390,91,92	Fax: +91-80-2286393
-----------------------------------------------------------------


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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Wed Jan 27 13:53:07 1999
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Message-ID: <E32BD2062DAFD1119CFD0000F804F31702C045B1@cosexch003.mcit.com>
From: "Hoefelmeyer, Ralph (MCI)" <Ralph.Hoefelmeyer@mci.com>
To: "'Alok Mittal'" <amittal@hss.hns.com>
Cc: "'iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com'" <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
Subject: RE: Intelligent Services in H.323 Networks
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:58:30 -0700
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Alok,

Yes, there are efforts to provide IN/AIN services in H.323 networks and to
interoperate with PSTN services, but I do not believe there is any
"standard" approach yet.  Erricsson has set up an H.323 network in Norway,
you might check with them and see what they are doing.

Ralph

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Alok Mittal [SMTP:amittal@hss.hns.com]
> Sent:	Wednesday, January 27, 1999 4:53 AM
> To:	'iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com'
> Subject:	Intelligent Services in H.323 Networks
> 
> Hi
>  
>  I have a query that hopefully belongs to this list --
> 
>  Is there any effort underway to provide IN/AIN like services
>  in H.323 networks in a standardized manner, and to inter-
>  operate with similar services in PSTN?
> 
> Thanks!
> Alok
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Alok Mittal	
> Technical Leader,	Hughes Software Systems
> Prestige Opal, 146 Infantry Road, Bangalore - 560001
> Tel: +91-80-2286390,91,92	Fax: +91-80-2286393
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> ---------
> This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.

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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2232.0">
<TITLE>RE: Intelligent Services in H.323 Networks</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" FACE=3D"Arial">Alok,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" FACE=3D"Arial">Yes, there are efforts to =
provide IN/AIN services in H.323 networks and to interoperate with PSTN =
services, but I do not believe there is any &quot;standard&quot; =
approach yet.&nbsp; Erricsson has set up an H.323 network in Norway, =
you might check with them and see what they are doing.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" FACE=3D"Arial">Ralph</FONT>
</P>
<UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Alok Mittal [SMTP:amittal@hss.hns.com]</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Wednesday, January 27, 1999 4:53 AM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">'iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com'</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D1 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Intelligent Services in H.323 =
Networks</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Hi</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&nbsp;I have =
a query that hopefully belongs to this list --</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&nbsp;Is there =
any effort underway to provide IN/AIN like services</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&nbsp;in =
H.323 networks in a standardized manner, and to inter-</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">&nbsp;operate =
with similar services in PSTN?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Thanks!</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Alok</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">-----------------------------------------------------------------</=
FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Alok =
Mittal&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Technical =
Leader,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Hughes Software =
Systems</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Prestige =
Opal, 146 Infantry Road, Bangalore - 560001</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Tel: =
+91-80-2286390,91,92&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Fax: =
+91-80-2286393</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">-----------------------------------------------------------------</=
FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">---------</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">This message =
came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.</FONT>
</P>
</UL>
</BODY>
</HTML>
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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Wed Jan 27 14:37:09 1999
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Message-ID: <36AF2CAB.67436AD0@Globalone.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:11:40 +0000
From: Sebastien Ducarne <Sebastien.Ducarne@globalone.net>
Organization: Global One
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Hello,

I am from Global One Operator and work in the engineering team as responsible
of new access modes to Voice Services. I am familiar with the Voice over ATM
solutions but less for Voice over IP.

I have a specific question and I hope that someone could find time to help me
on it
To be clear, I would like to know if it is possible to connect Customers PBX
to
a VOIP-Gateway and to transport all the traffic to another VOIP-Gateway
connected
to our large voice switch, and this without Gatekeeper.

Is it possible? What is the impact on service ? On bandwidth management ?

Thanks in advance for any help on this issue.

Sebastien DUCARNE
Global One - Voice Engineering PARIS
+33 1 40 79 80 66
sebastien.ducarne@globalone.net


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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Wed Jan 27 14:49:32 1999
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Message-ID: <017d01be49fa$e14b1b40$840110ac@notebook.int.transnexus.com>
From: "Stephen Thomas" <stephen.thomas@transnexus.com>
To: "Henry Sinnreich" <henry.sinnreich@mci.com>,
        "pcalhoun@eng.sun.com" <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>,
        "Ping Pan" <pingpan@dnrc.bell-labs.com>, <ietf-aaa@external.cisco.com>,
        <aaa-wg@merit.edu>
Cc: "Jonathan Rosenberg" <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>,
        "Dean Willis" <Dean.Willis@mci.com>,
        "Hoefelmeyer, Ralph (MCI)" <Ralph.Hoefelmeyer@mci.com>,
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Subject: Re: IP Telphony Gateway metering
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A couple of observations below.


-----Original Message-----
From: Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@mci.com>
To: pcalhoun@eng.sun.com <Pat.Calhoun@Eng.Sun.COM>; Ping Pan
<pingpan@dnrc.bell-labs.com>; ietf-aaa@external.cisco.com
<ietf-aaa@external.cisco.com>; aaa-wg@merit.edu <aaa-wg@merit.edu>
Cc: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@dnrc.bell-labs.com>; Dean Willis
<Dean.Willis@mci.com>; Hoefelmeyer, Ralph (MCI) <Ralph.Hoefelmeyer@mci.com>;
iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
Date: Tuesday, 26 January 1999 7:18 PM
Subject: RE: IP Telphony Gateway metering


|Pat wrote:
|>Is it really necessary for the router to spew out XML
|> (pages?), as
|> opposed to a much simpler (and easier to parse) protocol, and have the
AAA
|> server simply record the information in an XML format?

It seems like "simpler" protocols tend to work best when the
information to be parsed has a fairly simple structure. That is
certainly true today for dialup Internet access where the accounting
information is essentially just duration. I'm not certain that new
applications (such as multimedia over IP, to generalize the starting
point of this thread) will meet that same criteria. Considering the
multitude of variables that may be a part of accounting information
(e.g. layered media streams, various QoS attributes, network paths,
measured performance, ...) a way to encode a structure as part the
information might be essential. I suppose I'm suggesting that, in the
future, accounting information might be much more multi-dimensional
than it is today. XML is certainly one way to encode structure, others
exists as well (e.g. ASN.1). I have no credible opinion on whether
the dimensionality is handled by a "router" or an "AAA server,"
partly because I'm not sure the distinction between the two is
necessarily that clear.

[...]

|Next generation embedded devices could possibly use a common parser for
|HTML, SIP and XML over a very thin operating system.
|Would need to involve embedded device and protocol designers to explore the
|best web-like approach.


There is a fair body of work already on embedded device and protocol
support for both ASN.1 and XML (to cite the two examples mentioned
above). Although not necessarily in the IETF (other than SNMP). ISO
and ITU-T have certainly spent a lot of time with ASN.1, and the
Wireless Application Forum (www.wapforum.org) has developed a
considerable body of work on embedded XML support.

Stephen


____________________________________________________________________

Stephen Thomas                                       +1 404 872 4745
TransNexus, Chief Technical Officer    stephen.thomas@transnexus.com
____________________________________________________________________



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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Wed Jan 27 18:37:27 1999
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To: "Hoefelmeyer, Ralph (MCI)" <Ralph.Hoefelmeyer@mci.com>,
        "'Alok Mittal'" <amittal@hss.hns.com>
From: Douglas Clowes <dclowes@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: RE: Intelligent Services in H.323 Networks
Cc: "'iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com'" <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
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Indeed, a request to look at "Back End Services" - what they are and how
to standardise them - including IN/AIN type services, was submitted to
TIPHON recently.


The request was opposed, and consequently not accepted.


Douglas


At 08:58 1999-01-27 -0700, Hoefelmeyer, Ralph (MCI) wrote: 

>>>>

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>Alok,</color></fontfamily> 


<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>Yes,
there are efforts to provide IN/AIN services in H.323 networks and to
interoperate with PSTN services, but I do not believe there is any
"standard" approach yet.  Erricsson has set up an H.323 network in
Norway, you might check with them and see what they are doing.

</color></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>Ralph</color></fontfamily> 


<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>-----Original
Message-----</smaller></fontfamily> 

<bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>From: 
</smaller></fontfamily></bold>
<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>Alok Mittal
[SMTP:amittal@hss.hns.com]</smaller></fontfamily> 

<bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>Sent: 
</smaller></fontfamily></bold>
<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>Wednesday, January 27, 1999 4:53
AM</smaller></fontfamily> 

<bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>To:   
</smaller></fontfamily></bold>
<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>'iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com'</smaller></fontfamily> 

<bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>Subject:      
</smaller></fontfamily></bold>
<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>Intelligent Services in H.323
Networks</smaller></fontfamily> 


<smaller>Hi</smaller> 

<smaller> </smaller> 

<smaller> I have a query that hopefully belongs to this list --</smaller> 


<smaller> Is there any effort underway to provide IN/AIN like
services</smaller> 

<smaller> in H.323 networks in a standardized manner, and to
inter-</smaller> 

<smaller> operate with similar services in PSTN?</smaller> 


<smaller>Thanks!</smaller> 

<smaller>Alok</smaller> 


<smaller>-----------------------------------------------------------------</smaller> 

<smaller>Alok Mittal     </smaller> 

<smaller>Technical Leader,       Hughes Software Systems</smaller> 

<smaller>Prestige Opal, 146 Infantry Road, Bangalore - 560001</smaller> 

<smaller>Tel: +91-80-2286390,91,92       Fax: +91-80-2286393</smaller> 

<smaller>-----------------------------------------------------------------</smaller> 



<smaller>---------</smaller> 

<smaller>This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing
List.</smaller> 


</excerpt><<<<<<<<






---------
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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Wed Jan 27 19:43:36 1999
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From: Bjarne Munch <epabhm@epa.ericsson.se>
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To: Sebastien Ducarne <Sebastien.Ducarne@globalone.net>
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Hi Sebastian,

I'm new to this list, and thought that I migth introduce my existence by picking
up this one. In short;  Yes that is possible !

But a few questions migth be in order; why do you state that you dont want a
Gatekeeper ?

It may be of interest to have the Gatekeeper for any future enhancement of the
service offering, eg. more PBX's in the network or IP 'supplementary service'
offerings.
In the initial phase the Gatekeeper could be used to just set up the routing and
nothing
more, ie. it would be transparent to the user. Even in a 'simple', case such as
yours, you
would for most vendor products need to set up some routing information even
without
a Gatekeeper in the network.

Another question to ask is what services you would utilise on your PBX to
PBX link ?

Is it just pure transmission PBX to PBX, or would you require support of
existing PBX services such as call back or call transfer from one PBX to
the other ? In the latter case you would probably need some level of QSIG
capability in the VoIP network, ie. Gatekeeper signalling seems to be
needed.

Bandwidth management can be done, to a certain extend, via the Gatekeeper
but real QoS handling would need to be handled on a network level. The
issue is very much related to the size of the pipe between the two gateways
and the amount of traffic. If the pipe has a reasonable spare capacity you
should be able to provide an acceptable level of quality on your VoIP.

Regards
Bjarne Munch
Product Management, IP Services
Ericsson Australia





Sebastien Ducarne wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I am from Global One Operator and work in the engineering team as responsible
> of new access modes to Voice Services. I am familiar with the Voice over ATM
> solutions but less for Voice over IP.
>
> I have a specific question and I hope that someone could find time to help me
> on it
> To be clear, I would like to know if it is possible to connect Customers PBX
> to
> a VOIP-Gateway and to transport all the traffic to another VOIP-Gateway
> connected
> to our large voice switch, and this without Gatekeeper.
>
> Is it possible? What is the impact on service ? On bandwidth management ?
>
> Thanks in advance for any help on this issue.
>
> Sebastien DUCARNE
> Global One - Voice Engineering PARIS
> +33 1 40 79 80 66
> sebastien.ducarne@globalone.net
>
> ---------
> This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.




---------
This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.


From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Wed Jan 27 20:11:28 1999
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Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:59:39 -0800
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From: Richard Brennan <rbrennan@gric.com>
Subject: RE: Intelligent Services in H.323 Networks
In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990128102533.00fbb398@mail.ozemail.com.au>
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Actually... 
the work item proposed by Telekom Austria... 
http://docbox.etsi.org/tech-org/tiphon/Document/tiphon/05-9901-Sophia/11TD11
9.doc 
was not added to the WG-2 work program due to concern regarding the scope of
the work item.

The issue of interfaces to "Back End Services"  will be considered at a second
BOF session 
at the ETSI-TIPHON 12 meeting in Philadelphia, PA. 
(Tentatively scheduled for... Monday, 1st March 1999 18:00-20:00)


ETSI-TIPHON has already approved a Technical Specification in this area:
TS 101 321 (12/98) "Inter-domain pricing, authorization, and usage exchange",
based 
on HTTP 1.1 and XML. (commonly referred to as: Open Settlement Protocol - OSP) 
http://docbox.etsi.org/tech-org/tiphon/Document/tiphon/07-drafts/wg3/DTS0300
4/V1.4.2 

====================================================
Richard Brennan - Product Manager Internet Telephony
GRIC Communications, Inc.
1421 McCarthy Blvd.,Milpitas, CA 95035 USA
tel: +1.408.965.1193            fax: +1.408.955.1967
mailto:rbrennan@gric.com         http://www.gric.com
====================================================

At 10:25 AM 1/28/99 +1100, Douglas Clowes wrote: 
>
> Indeed, a request to look at "Back End Services" - what they are and how to
> standardise them - including IN/AIN type services, was submitted to TIPHON
> recently. 
>
> The request was opposed, and consequently not accepted. 
>
> Douglas 
>
> At 08:58 1999-01-27 -0700, Hoefelmeyer, Ralph (MCI) wrote: 
> >>>> 
>
>>
>> Alok, 
>>
>> Yes, there are efforts to provide IN/AIN services in H.323 networks and to
>> interoperate with PSTN services, but I do not believe there is any
>> "standard" approach yet.  Erricsson has set up an H.323 network in Norway,
>> you might check with them and see what they are doing. 
>>
>> Ralph 
>>
>> -----Original Message----- 
>> From: Alok Mittal [SMTP:amittal@hss.hns.com] 
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 4:53 AM 
>> To:   'iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com' 
>> Subject:      Intelligent Services in H.323 Networks 
>>
>> Hi 
>>
>> I have a query that hopefully belongs to this list -- 
>>
>> Is there any effort underway to provide IN/AIN like services 
>> in H.323 networks in a standardized manner, and to inter- 
>> operate with similar services in PSTN? 
>>
>> Thanks! 
>> Alok 
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> Alok Mittal     
>> Technical Leader,       Hughes Software Systems 
>> Prestige Opal, 146 Infantry Road, Bangalore - 560001 
>> Tel: +91-80-2286390,91,92       Fax: +91-80-2286393 
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>
>>
>> --------- 
>> This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List. 
>
> <<<< 
>
>
>
>
>
> --------- This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List. 



---------
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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Wed Jan 27 22:35:21 1999
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Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:34:56 -0600
From: ming.lu@globalone.net (Ming Lu)
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Sebastian:

gatway serves a function as "translator" between traditional PSTN/PBX network and IP
network, you have no problem to connect a gateway to PBX.

Also According H.3232, gatekeeper is optional. You don't have to have gatekeeper to
operate a gateway.

Best

_ming

Bjarne Munch wrote:

> Hi Sebastian,
>
> I'm new to this list, and thought that I migth introduce my existence by picking
> up this one. In short;  Yes that is possible !
>
> But a few questions migth be in order; why do you state that you dont want a
> Gatekeeper ?
>
> It may be of interest to have the Gatekeeper for any future enhancement of the
> service offering, eg. more PBX's in the network or IP 'supplementary service'
> offerings.
> In the initial phase the Gatekeeper could be used to just set up the routing and
> nothing
> more, ie. it would be transparent to the user. Even in a 'simple', case such as
> yours, you
> would for most vendor products need to set up some routing information even
> without
> a Gatekeeper in the network.
>
> Another question to ask is what services you would utilise on your PBX to
> PBX link ?
>
> Is it just pure transmission PBX to PBX, or would you require support of
> existing PBX services such as call back or call transfer from one PBX to
> the other ? In the latter case you would probably need some level of QSIG
> capability in the VoIP network, ie. Gatekeeper signalling seems to be
> needed.
>
> Bandwidth management can be done, to a certain extend, via the Gatekeeper
> but real QoS handling would need to be handled on a network level. The
> issue is very much related to the size of the pipe between the two gateways
> and the amount of traffic. If the pipe has a reasonable spare capacity you
> should be able to provide an acceptable level of quality on your VoIP.
>
> Regards
> Bjarne Munch
> Product Management, IP Services
> Ericsson Australia
>
> Sebastien Ducarne wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I am from Global One Operator and work in the engineering team as responsible
> > of new access modes to Voice Services. I am familiar with the Voice over ATM
> > solutions but less for Voice over IP.
> >
> > I have a specific question and I hope that someone could find time to help me
> > on it
> > To be clear, I would like to know if it is possible to connect Customers PBX
> > to
> > a VOIP-Gateway and to transport all the traffic to another VOIP-Gateway
> > connected
> > to our large voice switch, and this without Gatekeeper.
> >
> > Is it possible? What is the impact on service ? On bandwidth management ?
> >
> > Thanks in advance for any help on this issue.
> >
> > Sebastien DUCARNE
> > Global One - Voice Engineering PARIS
> > +33 1 40 79 80 66
> > sebastien.ducarne@globalone.net
> >
> > ---------
> > This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.
>
> ---------
> This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.


---------
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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Thu Jan 28 09:58:54 1999
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Message-Id: <99Jan28.124759ist.113795@firewall.radvision.rad.co.il>
From: Ami Amir <amir@radvision.rad.co.il>
To: ming.lu@globalone.net, epabhm@epa.ericsson.se
Cc: Sebastien Ducarne <Sebastien.Ducarne@globalone.net>,
        IP Telephony <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
Subject: RE: VOIP question ??
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:41:42 +0200
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Hi All

Once you walk through and analyze the situation, you will find out that a
Gatekeeper is really needed. 

An example of one issue -dialing schemes: If you are willing to support
multiple stage dialing or assign a rigid dialing scheme (e.g. prefix 6 for
PBX A, prefix 7 for PBX B etc) then you can make do w/o gatekeepers - and
sacrifice functionality, mobility and flexibility. 

Another issue is economical: If you have more than 3 PBX's - you have two
options; either create a mesh, and let each PBX support as many trunks as
there are PBX's (= lots of hardware) - or support a flexible scheme, where a
single PBX to GW trunk can support connections to multiple GWs. This, less
expensive, functionality requires a GK.
 
Ami

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	ming.lu@globalone.net [SMTP:ming.lu@globalone.net]
	Sent:	Thursday, January 28, 1999 4:35 AM
	To:	epabhm@epa.ericsson.se
	Cc:	Sebastien Ducarne; IP Telephony
	Subject:	Re: VOIP question ??

	Sebastian:

	gatway serves a function as "translator" between traditional
PSTN/PBX network and IP
	network, you have no problem to connect a gateway to PBX.

	Also According H.3232, gatekeeper is optional. You don't have to
have gatekeeper to
	operate a gateway.

	Best

	_ming

	Bjarne Munch wrote:

	> Hi Sebastian,
	>
	> I'm new to this list, and thought that I migth introduce my
existence by picking
	> up this one. In short;  Yes that is possible !
	>
	> But a few questions migth be in order; why do you state that you
dont want a
	> Gatekeeper ?
	>
	> It may be of interest to have the Gatekeeper for any future
enhancement of the
	> service offering, eg. more PBX's in the network or IP
'supplementary service'
	> offerings.
	> In the initial phase the Gatekeeper could be used to just set up
the routing and
	> nothing
	> more, ie. it would be transparent to the user. Even in a 'simple',
case such as
	> yours, you
	> would for most vendor products need to set up some routing
information even
	> without
	> a Gatekeeper in the network.
	>
	> Another question to ask is what services you would utilise on your
PBX to
	> PBX link ?
	>
	> Is it just pure transmission PBX to PBX, or would you require
support of
	> existing PBX services such as call back or call transfer from one
PBX to
	> the other ? In the latter case you would probably need some level
of QSIG
	> capability in the VoIP network, ie. Gatekeeper signalling seems to
be
	> needed.
	>
	> Bandwidth management can be done, to a certain extend, via the
Gatekeeper
	> but real QoS handling would need to be handled on a network level.
The
	> issue is very much related to the size of the pipe between the two
gateways
	> and the amount of traffic. If the pipe has a reasonable spare
capacity you
	> should be able to provide an acceptable level of quality on your
VoIP.
	>
	> Regards
	> Bjarne Munch
	> Product Management, IP Services
	> Ericsson Australia
	>
	> Sebastien Ducarne wrote:
	>
	> > Hello,
	> >
	> > I am from Global One Operator and work in the engineering team
as responsible
	> > of new access modes to Voice Services. I am familiar with the
Voice over ATM
	> > solutions but less for Voice over IP.
	> >
	> > I have a specific question and I hope that someone could find
time to help me
	> > on it
	> > To be clear, I would like to know if it is possible to connect
Customers PBX
	> > to
	> > a VOIP-Gateway and to transport all the traffic to another
VOIP-Gateway
	> > connected
	> > to our large voice switch, and this without Gatekeeper.
	> >
	> > Is it possible? What is the impact on service ? On bandwidth
management ?
	> >
	> > Thanks in advance for any help on this issue.
	> >
	> > Sebastien DUCARNE
	> > Global One - Voice Engineering PARIS
	> > +33 1 40 79 80 66
	> > sebastien.ducarne@globalone.net
	> >
	> > ---------
	> > This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing
List.
	>
	> ---------
	> This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.


	---------
	This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.

---------
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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Thu Jan 28 13:36:46 1999
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Message-Id: <99Jan28.202021ist.113798@firewall.radvision.rad.co.il>
From: Ami Amir <amir@radvision.rad.co.il>
To: "ronald h. davis" <ronaldd@lucent.com>,
        Ami Amir <amir@radvision.rad.co.il>
Cc: ming.lu@globalone.net, epabhm@epa.ericsson.se,
        Sebastien Ducarne <Sebastien.Ducarne@globalone.net>,
        IP Telephony <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
Subject: RE: VOIP question ??
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 20:14:06 +0200
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Ronald,

Since I was present on the H.323 scene from its early days, I beg to differ:

1.	The Gatekeeper's function from day one was ADDRESS RESOLUTION (even
the name was driven by the function of Gateway Keeper).
2.	As to the specific problem - any of the currently commercially
available gatekeepers provide support for PBX to PBX connections. There will
be problems when the connection spans very large networks that are
multi-zonal and inter-company. The original spec did not attempt to resolve
these issues, and hence additional work is required (be it intergatekeeper
work in the ITU or the iptel work in the IETF).

Regards

Ami

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	ronald h. davis [SMTP:ronaldd@lucent.com]
	Sent:	Thursday, January 28, 1999 7:23 PM
	To:	Ami Amir
	Cc:	ming.lu@globalone.net; epabhm@epa.ericsson.se; Sebastien
Ducarne; IP Telephony
	Subject:	Re: VOIP question ??

	Ami Amir wrote:
	> 
	> Hi All
	> 
	> Once you walk through and analyze the situation, you will find out
that a
	> Gatekeeper is really needed.
	> 

	h.323 was defined for non-qos lans, so as far as i am able to tell,
the
	gatekeeper function arose from the need to manage bandwidth on a
lan.
	this was accomplished through the use of a ras channel and
registration
	and admission procedures as defined in h.323.

	when connecting gateways/endpoints on a wide area network, this role
of
	the gatekeeper becomes a bit harder to define...

	from what i can tell, you're suggesting the role of the gatekeeper
is
	a sort of application-level router.  this is certainly a valid role
	but it can be achieved by h.225 call signalling, and h.245 control
	channels only - there is no need for a ras channel.

	at the network level there is a need for these application-level
	routers to be able to exchange information, both within an
	administrative domain, and between administrative domains.  this
	creates a role for ospf and bgp equivalent protocols that allow
	for the exchange of information.  the inter-domain problem is
currently
	being addressed by both itu study group 16, h.225 annex g, and by
	the ietf iptel wg, gateway location protocol).  there is also a
proposal
	before iptel (which has been tabled for now while they work on glp)
to
	address the intra-domain problem, peer gatekeeper routing protocol
	(which is horribly misnamed because it really isn't limited to h.323
	gatekeepers anyway).  there's also an i.now! proposal which is based
	upon a clearinghouse model.  but the objectives of these protocols
is 
	different from the objectives of the h.323 gatekeeper ras channel.  

	so while i see there is a role for an application-level router,
which
	you may call a gatekeeper is you wish, to me, the term gatekeeper
	comes with loading of ras channel functionality that must be
supported
	(at least according to h.323).  this functionality seems largely
	unnecessary in the scenarios that you described.

	-- 
	  __  ______  __  / __/ |       lucent technologies, naperville il,
usa
	_/ (_(_) / (_(_/_/_(_/  .       ronald.h.davis@lucent.com
	"if you ain't the lead dog, the scenery never changes"  -- edmund
wilson

	---------
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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Thu Jan 28 13:53:10 1999
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From: "Ying, Wen-Ping" <wen-ping.ying@attws.com>
To: "'Hoefelmeyer, Ralph (MCI)'" <Ralph.Hoefelmeyer@mci.com>,
        "'Alok Mittal'" <amittal@hss.hns.com>
Cc: "'iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com'" <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>,
        "'Taylor, Tom-PT [SKY:B318-I:EXCH]'" <taylor@americasm01.nt.com>,
        "'Christian Huitema'" <huitema@bellcore.com>
Subject: RE: Intelligent Services in H.323 Networks
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:34:13 -0800
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Can the current view of MG/MGC from MEGACO working group be expanded to
cover this function? As long as MGCP includes enough flexibilty to allow
proper call disposition, as far as protocol goes, this should be feasible.
The specific implementation of MGC functions could actually be integrated
into the existing SCP/NCP provided the interface be changed to IP based.

Wen-Ping Ying
AT&T Wireless Services
Voice 425-702-2725
wying@att.com


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Hoefelmeyer, Ralph (MCI) [SMTP:Ralph.Hoefelmeyer@mci.com]
> Sent:	Wednesday, January 27, 1999 7:59 AM
> To:	'Alok Mittal'
> Cc:	'iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com'
> Subject:	RE: Intelligent Services in H.323 Networks
> 
> Alok, 
> 
> Yes, there are efforts to provide IN/AIN services in H.323 networks and to
> interoperate with PSTN services, but I do not believe there is any
> "standard" approach yet.  Erricsson has set up an H.323 network in Norway,
> you might check with them and see what they are doing.
> 
> Ralph 
> 
> 	-----Original Message----- 
> From:   Alok Mittal [SMTP:amittal@hss.hns.com] 
> Sent:   Wednesday, January 27, 1999 4:53 AM 
> To:     'iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com' 
> Subject:        Intelligent Services in H.323 Networks 
> 
> 	Hi 
>   
>  I have a query that hopefully belongs to this list -- 
> 
> 	 Is there any effort underway to provide IN/AIN like services 
>  in H.323 networks in a standardized manner, and to inter- 
>  operate with similar services in PSTN? 
> 
> 	Thanks! 
> Alok 
> 
> 	----------------------------------------------------------------- 
> Alok Mittal     
> Technical Leader,       Hughes Software Systems 
> Prestige Opal, 146 Infantry Road, Bangalore - 560001 
> Tel: +91-80-2286390,91,92       Fax: +91-80-2286393 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
> 
> 
> 	--------- 
> This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List. 
> 

---------
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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Thu Jan 28 14:08:33 1999
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        IP Telephony <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
Message-ID: <36B09CED.2C030CED@lucent.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:22:53 -0600
From: "ronald h. davis" <ronaldd@lucent.com>
Organization: Lucent Technologies
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To: Ami Amir <amir@radvision.rad.co.il>
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        Sebastien Ducarne <Sebastien.Ducarne@globalone.net>,
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Subject: Re: VOIP question ??
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Ami Amir wrote:
> 
> Hi All
> 
> Once you walk through and analyze the situation, you will find out that a
> Gatekeeper is really needed.
> 

h.323 was defined for non-qos lans, so as far as i am able to tell, the
gatekeeper function arose from the need to manage bandwidth on a lan.
this was accomplished through the use of a ras channel and registration
and admission procedures as defined in h.323.

when connecting gateways/endpoints on a wide area network, this role of
the gatekeeper becomes a bit harder to define...

from what i can tell, you're suggesting the role of the gatekeeper is
a sort of application-level router.  this is certainly a valid role
but it can be achieved by h.225 call signalling, and h.245 control
channels only - there is no need for a ras channel.

at the network level there is a need for these application-level
routers to be able to exchange information, both within an
administrative domain, and between administrative domains.  this
creates a role for ospf and bgp equivalent protocols that allow
for the exchange of information.  the inter-domain problem is currently
being addressed by both itu study group 16, h.225 annex g, and by
the ietf iptel wg, gateway location protocol).  there is also a proposal
before iptel (which has been tabled for now while they work on glp) to
address the intra-domain problem, peer gatekeeper routing protocol
(which is horribly misnamed because it really isn't limited to h.323
gatekeepers anyway).  there's also an i.now! proposal which is based
upon a clearinghouse model.  but the objectives of these protocols is 
different from the objectives of the h.323 gatekeeper ras channel.  

so while i see there is a role for an application-level router, which
you may call a gatekeeper is you wish, to me, the term gatekeeper
comes with loading of ras channel functionality that must be supported
(at least according to h.323).  this functionality seems largely
unnecessary in the scenarios that you described.

-- 
  __  ______  __  / __/ |       lucent technologies, naperville il, usa
_/ (_(_) / (_(_/_/_(_/  .       ronald.h.davis@lucent.com
"if you ain't the lead dog, the scenery never changes"  -- edmund wilson

---------
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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Thu Jan 28 14:29:39 1999
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Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:15:35 -0600
From: "ronald h. davis" <ronaldd@lucent.com>
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Subject: Re: VOIP question ??
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Ami Amir wrote:
> 
> Ronald,
> 
> Since I was present on the H.323 scene from its early days, I beg to differ:
> 
> 1.      The Gatekeeper's function from day one was ADDRESS RESOLUTION (even
> the name was driven by the function of Gateway Keeper).
>

could you explain why bandwidth was made a mandatory element in an
admission request (arq) (along with other bandwidth management
gatekeeper procedures)?  in fact, was arq necessary at all?
address resolution could be accomplished by a location request (lrq)
and no arq.  but it was not until a later version of h.323 that i saw 
the capability added that allowed zone members to register with 
pre-approved arq.

i'm not denying the address resolution role of the gatekeeper, i'm
just questioning the need for the ras channel, which every h.323
gatekeeper must support.

-- 
  __  ______  __  / __/ |       lucent technologies, naperville il, usa
_/ (_(_) / (_(_/_/_(_/  .       ronald.h.davis@lucent.com
"if you ain't the lead dog, the scenery never changes"  -- edmund wilson

---------
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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Thu Jan 28 14:42:53 1999
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Message-Id: <99Jan28.212713ist.113800@firewall.radvision.rad.co.il>
From: Ami Amir <amir@radvision.rad.co.il>
To: "ronald h. davis" <ronaldd@lucent.com>,
        Ami Amir <amir@radvision.rad.co.il>
Cc: ming.lu@globalone.net, epabhm@epa.ericsson.se,
        Sebastien Ducarne <Sebastien.Ducarne@globalone.net>,
        IP Telephony <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
Subject: RE: VOIP question ??
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Hi Ronald

Like many other protocols, H.323 is a compromise  (to quote from myself - a
camel is a horse designed by a committee :->). I can relate to history and
explain - but this unimportant. At the end, to the specific issue - the
easiest way to solve the problem raised by Sebastien - have a GK out there,
let it resolve the called phone number, translate it to IP and be done with
it.

Cheers

Ami

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	ronald h. davis [SMTP:ronaldd@lucent.com]
	Sent:	Thursday, January 28, 1999 9:16 PM
	To:	Ami Amir
	Cc:	ming.lu@globalone.net; epabhm@epa.ericsson.se; Sebastien
Ducarne; IP Telephony
	Subject:	Re: VOIP question ??

	Ami Amir wrote:
	> 
	> Ronald,
	> 
	> Since I was present on the H.323 scene from its early days, I beg
to differ:
	> 
	> 1.      The Gatekeeper's function from day one was ADDRESS
RESOLUTION (even
	> the name was driven by the function of Gateway Keeper).
	>

	could you explain why bandwidth was made a mandatory element in an
	admission request (arq) (along with other bandwidth management
	gatekeeper procedures)?  in fact, was arq necessary at all?
	address resolution could be accomplished by a location request (lrq)
	and no arq.  but it was not until a later version of h.323 that i
saw 
	the capability added that allowed zone members to register with 
	pre-approved arq.

	i'm not denying the address resolution role of the gatekeeper, i'm
	just questioning the need for the ras channel, which every h.323
	gatekeeper must support.

	-- 
	  __  ______  __  / __/ |       lucent technologies, naperville il,
usa
	_/ (_(_) / (_(_/_/_(_/  .       ronald.h.davis@lucent.com
	"if you ain't the lead dog, the scenery never changes"  -- edmund
wilson

	---------
	This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.

---------
This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.


From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Thu Jan 28 17:46:42 1999
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Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:23:42 +1100
From: Bjarne Munch <epabhm@epa.ericsson.se>
Reply-To: epabhm@epa.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson Australia
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To: Ami Amir <amir@radvision.rad.co.il>
Cc: "ronald h. davis" <ronaldd@lucent.com>, ming.lu@globalone.net,
        Sebastien Ducarne <Sebastien.Ducarne@globalone.net>,
        IP Telephony <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
Subject: Re: VOIP question ??
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Hi,
This is interesting, even though it's morning and I'm half asleep.

I am thinking about Ronalds remark about application level routing and the need
for protocols similar to OSPF and BGS, or even the emerging Gateway Location
Protocol.

I see a strong need for address resolution from E.164 number plans, and I can
also
see the need to structure an IP Telephony network in some hierarchy. This is
partly to provide a scalable E.164 routing, but just as much to allow an
operator
to implement certain business rules. Such business rules would be related to
a per minute cost for terminating a call towards specific destinations,
receiving
calls from other destinations, inter-operator domain operability etc.

The question that occur to me is how much control will the operator wish to
have over this IPT network ? And how much self discovery and routing
adaptability
will an operator wish to have?

Call me a 'bell-head' but as an example; implementing an automatic gateway
discovery may limit the possibility for operators to control the cost structure
for
terminating and originating calls to/from these gateways.

I dont see this as a part of H.323, but rather the routing applicating utilising
H.323.
And this routing application does not nessecarily require an 'adaptive' routing
protocol.

Cheers
Bjarne Munch




Ami Amir wrote:

> Ronald,
>
> Since I was present on the H.323 scene from its early days, I beg to differ:
>
> 1.      The Gatekeeper's function from day one was ADDRESS RESOLUTION (even
> the name was driven by the function of Gateway Keeper).
> 2.      As to the specific problem - any of the currently commercially
> available gatekeepers provide support for PBX to PBX connections. There will
> be problems when the connection spans very large networks that are
> multi-zonal and inter-company. The original spec did not attempt to resolve
> these issues, and hence additional work is required (be it intergatekeeper
> work in the ITU or the iptel work in the IETF).
>
> Regards
>
> Ami
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From:   ronald h. davis [SMTP:ronaldd@lucent.com]
>         Sent:   Thursday, January 28, 1999 7:23 PM
>         To:     Ami Amir
>         Cc:     ming.lu@globalone.net; epabhm@epa.ericsson.se; Sebastien
> Ducarne; IP Telephony
>         Subject:        Re: VOIP question ??
>
>         Ami Amir wrote:
>         >
>         > Hi All
>         >
>         > Once you walk through and analyze the situation, you will find out
> that a
>         > Gatekeeper is really needed.
>         >
>
>         h.323 was defined for non-qos lans, so as far as i am able to tell,
> the
>         gatekeeper function arose from the need to manage bandwidth on a
> lan.
>         this was accomplished through the use of a ras channel and
> registration
>         and admission procedures as defined in h.323.
>
>         when connecting gateways/endpoints on a wide area network, this role
> of
>         the gatekeeper becomes a bit harder to define...
>
>         from what i can tell, you're suggesting the role of the gatekeeper
> is
>         a sort of application-level router.  this is certainly a valid role
>         but it can be achieved by h.225 call signalling, and h.245 control
>         channels only - there is no need for a ras channel.
>
>         at the network level there is a need for these application-level
>         routers to be able to exchange information, both within an
>         administrative domain, and between administrative domains.  this
>         creates a role for ospf and bgp equivalent protocols that allow
>         for the exchange of information.  the inter-domain problem is
> currently
>         being addressed by both itu study group 16, h.225 annex g, and by
>         the ietf iptel wg, gateway location protocol).  there is also a
> proposal
>         before iptel (which has been tabled for now while they work on glp)
> to
>         address the intra-domain problem, peer gatekeeper routing protocol
>         (which is horribly misnamed because it really isn't limited to h.323
>         gatekeepers anyway).  there's also an i.now! proposal which is based
>         upon a clearinghouse model.  but the objectives of these protocols
> is
>         different from the objectives of the h.323 gatekeeper ras channel.
>
>         so while i see there is a role for an application-level router,
> which
>         you may call a gatekeeper is you wish, to me, the term gatekeeper
>         comes with loading of ras channel functionality that must be
> supported
>         (at least according to h.323).  this functionality seems largely
>         unnecessary in the scenarios that you described.
>
>         --
>           __  ______  __  / __/ |       lucent technologies, naperville il,
> usa
>         _/ (_(_) / (_(_/_/_(_/  .       ronald.h.davis@lucent.com
>         "if you ain't the lead dog, the scenery never changes"  -- edmund
> wilson
>
>         ---------
>         This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.




---------
This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.


From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Thu Jan 28 19:26:39 1999
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From: CHATRAS Bruno CNET/DAC/ISS <bruno.chatras@cnet.francetelecom.fr>
To: "'Hoefelmeyer, Ralph (MCI)'" <Ralph.Hoefelmeyer@mci.com>,
        "'Alok Mittal'" <amittal@hss.hns.com>
Cc: "'iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com'" <iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com>
Subject: RE: Intelligent Services in H.323 Networks
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:47:19 +0100
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Both ETSI and ITU are starting to discuss this issue.=20

At the next ITU SG11 WP4 (IN) meeting in March '99 there will be some
contributions on this topic.

You can check the T1S1 FTP server to have a look to the North-American =
draft
contribution.

FYI, I also attach to this mail a contribution which was discussed this =
week
in ETSI (IN Working Group).

 <<h323-IN.doc>>=20





> -----Message d'origine-----
> De:	Hoefelmeyer, Ralph (MCI) [SMTP:Ralph.Hoefelmeyer@mci.com]
> Date:	mercredi 27 janvier 1999 16:59
> =C0:	'Alok Mittal'
> Cc:	'iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com'
> Objet:	RE: Intelligent Services in H.323 Networks
>=20
> Alok,=20
>=20
> Yes, there are efforts to provide IN/AIN services in H.323 networks =
and to
> interoperate with PSTN services, but I do not believe there is any
> "standard" approach yet.=A0 Erricsson has set up an H.323 network in =
Norway,
> you might check with them and see what they are doing.
>=20
> Ralph=20
>=20
> 	-----Original Message-----=20
> From:=A0=A0 Alok Mittal [SMTP:amittal@hss.hns.com]=20
> Sent:=A0=A0 Wednesday, January 27, 1999 4:53 AM=20
> To:=A0=A0=A0=A0 'iptel@lists.research.bell-labs.com'=20
> Subject:=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Intelligent Services in H.323 Networks=20
>=20
> 	Hi=20
> =A0=20
> =A0I have a query that hopefully belongs to this list --=20
>=20
> 	=A0Is there any effort underway to provide IN/AIN like services=20
> =A0in H.323 networks in a standardized manner, and to inter-=20
> =A0operate with similar services in PSTN?=20
>=20
> 	Thanks!=20
> Alok=20
>=20
> 	-----------------------------------------------------------------=20
> Alok Mittal=A0=A0=A0=A0=20
> Technical Leader,=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Hughes Software Systems=20
> Prestige Opal, 146 Infantry Road, Bangalore - 560001=20
> Tel: +91-80-2286390,91,92=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Fax: +91-80-2286393=20
> -----------------------------------------------------------------=20
>=20
>=20
> 	---------=20
> This message came from the IETF IPTEL Working Group Mailing List.=20
>=20

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---------
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From owner-iptel-outgoing@lists.research.bell-labs.com  Fri Jan 29 00:26:40 1999
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Bjarne Munch wrote:
> 
> The question that occur to me is how much control will the operator wish to
> have over this IPT network ? And how much self discovery and routing
> adaptability
> will an operator wish to have?
> 
> Call me a 'bell-head' but as an example; implementing an automatic gateway
> discovery may limit the possibility for operators to control the cost structure
> for
> terminating and originating calls to/from these gateways.

The assumption of adaptive routing and management/control being mutually
exclusive is not accurate. Existing IP routing protocols are usually
tied to policy decisions in routers. For IP telephony, the "routing"
protocol (GLP) allows a Location Server  (gatekeeper or SIP server in
most cases) to have a set of gateways from which it can make policy
decisions, resulting in a final routing table.

> 
> I dont see this as a part of H.323, but rather the routing applicating utilising
> H.323.
> And this routing application does not nessecarily require an 'adaptive' routing
> protocol.

GLP is neither part of H.323 or SIP, and neither does it utilize them.
Rather, a gatekeeper or SIP server would make use of GLP as a method for
constructing routing databases (and perhaps not the only means of
constructing the database).

-Jonathan R.
-- 
Jonathan D. Rosenberg                       Lucent Technologies
Member of Technical Staff                   101 Crawfords Corner Rd.
High Speed Networks Research                Holmdel, NJ 07733
FAX: (732) 834-5379                         Rm. 4C-526
EMAIL: jdrosen@bell-labs.com
URL: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~jdrosen

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