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Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484-revise-04.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Maintenance Working Group of the=
 IETF.

	Title           : Update to RFC 3484 Default Address Selection for IPv6
	Author(s)       : Arifumi Matsumoto
                          Jun-ya Kato
                          Tomohiro Fujisaki
                          Tim Chown
	Filename        : draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484-revise-04.txt
	Pages           : 12
	Date            : 2011-07-01

   RFC 3484 describes algorithms for source address selection and for
   destination address selection.  The algorithms specify default
   behavior for all Internet Protocol version 6 (IPv6) implementations.
   This document specifies a set of updates that modify the algorithms
   and fix the known defects.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484-revise-04.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-rfc3484-revise-04.txt

From dwmalone@maths.tcd.ie  Fri Jul  1 02:49:45 2011
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Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 10:49:42 +0100
From: David Malone <dwmalone@maths.tcd.ie>
To: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: 6MAN WG Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-exthdr-03.txt>
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I was a little surprised by this document when I read it. The title
is "An uniform format for IPv6 extension headers", and the abstract
reads as I'd expect. However, when we get to section 3 (Applicability)
"SHOULD" and "MUST" are used, *not* to require people to use a uniform
format for IPv6 extension headers, but instead:

	1) implementations SHOULD use destination options as the
	preferred mechanism for encoding optional destination
	information

	2) The request for creation of a new IPv6 extension header
	MUST be accompanied by an specific explanation of why
	destination options could not be used

	3) new IPv6 Extension Header(s) having hop-by-hop behaviour
	MUST NOT be created or specified

	4) new options for the existing Hop-by-Hop Header SHOULD
	NOT be created or specified unless no alternative is feasible

	5) new optional information to be sent SHOULD be encoded
	in a new option for the existing IPv6 Destination Options
	Header

	6) new IPv6 extension headers MUST NOT be created or
	specified, unless no existing IPv6 Extension Header can be
	used

	7) Any proposal to create or specify a new IPv6 Extension
	Header MUST include a detailed technical explanation of why
	no existing IPv6 Extension Header can be used

I don't particularly object to any of these, but none of these
relate to the format of IPv6 extension headers. When we get to
section 4, which details the uniform format, no SHOULD or MUST
language is present.

This seems to mean that the document's title and abstract do not
match the imperative content of the document. Fixing this could be
a simple as changing the title and abstract, plus possibly adding
something in Section 4 to actually encourage use of the uniform
format.

I've also noted a few more minor points below.

	David.


Title: "An Uniform" - for me this should be "A Uniform". Googling
for both says "A Uniform" is more used by about 40-1, but also
brings up some documents explaining the disagreement.

Section 1: "Also, Several" -> "Also, several"

Section 3: I think there's an unwanted page break after the first
paragraph of section 3.

Section 4: Should you give a reference to the IANA protocol numbers
registery when you desceibe Next Header?

Section 5 should probably give a list of the existing headers that
do follow this format.

From rja.lists@gmail.com  Fri Jul  1 07:00:51 2011
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From: RJ Atkinson <rja.lists@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: 6MAN WG Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-exthdr-03.txt>  
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 10:00:45 -0400
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On 30th June 2011, Bob Hinden wrote:
> This message starts a two week 6MAN Working Group Last Call on advancing:
> 
> 	Title           : An uniform format for IPv6 extension headers
> 	Author(s)       : Suresh Krishnan
>                          Erik Kline
>                          James Hoagland
>                          Manav Bhatia
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-6man-exthdr-03.txt
> 	Pages           : 8
> 	Date            : 2011-06-27
> 	
>        
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-exthdr-03
> 
> 
> as a Proposed Standard.  Substantive comments and statements of support
> for advancing this document should be directed to the mailing list.  
> Editorial suggestions can be sent to the authors.  This last call
> will end on 14 July 2011.

I support publishing this as a Proposed Standard.  

This revision resolves my earlier concerns that it is
highly undesirable to define *any* new IPv6 Extension Headers
(since defining any new IPv6 Extension Header will break 
multiple existing IPv6 deployments).

On 1st July 2011, David Malone wrote, in part:
> Fixing this could be a simple as changing the title and abstract, 
> plus possibly adding something in Section 4 to actually encourage 
> use of the uniform format.

I do not have any philosophical objections to the suggested
edit of the document Title and expansion of the Abstract.

Perhaps the lone sentence in Section 4 could be reworded
into RFC-2119 language.  Candidate replacement text might be:

	If any IPv6 Extension Headers are defined in future,
	keeping in mind the restrictions above in Section 3
	and also the restrictions specified in RFC-2460,
	they MUST use the consistent format defined in Figure 1.
	This enables future IPv6 implementations to skip over 
	unknown IPv6 Extension Headers and continue to further 
	process the IPv6 header chain.

Yours,

Ran


From kauer@biplane.com.au  Fri Jul  1 15:53:32 2011
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Subject: Re: 6MAN WG Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-exthdr-03.txt>
From: Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au>
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On Fri, 2011-07-01 at 10:00 -0400, RJ Atkinson wrote:
> This revision resolves my earlier concerns that it is
> highly undesirable to define *any* new IPv6 Extension Headers
> (since defining any new IPv6 Extension Header will break=20
> multiple existing IPv6 deployments).

It seems strange to me that we define "IPv6 Extension Headers", then
refuse to allow any further extensions! That was largely the point and
purpose of the exercise.

That said, it is always "highly undesirable" to make changes to a
deployed protocol UNLESS the changes can safely be ignored. It will
depend on the function of any future extension headers as to whether
they will be able to be safely ignored. On the other hand, if an
extension is needed, then it is needed, and the community will have to
make the tradeoff between the undesirability of a change and the
desirability of a new feature.

This draft means that if an application runs into headers it does not
understand, then at least it can skip them neatly. If *skipping* them
causes problems, then at least the authors *should have* been aware that
new extension headers might come along, and *should have* planned for
that in some way.

Hm, I think I might just have used more words to say what you said :-)

Regards, K.

--=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)

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From rja.lists@gmail.com  Sat Jul  2 11:39:18 2011
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From: RJ Atkinson <rja.lists@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: 6MAN WG Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-exthdr-03.txt>
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On 2nd July 2011, Karl Auer wrote, in part:
> It seems strange to me that we define "IPv6 Extension Headers",
> then refuse to allow any further extensions!

Kindly note that this document does NOT prohibit future IPv6 extensions.
That is a mis-understanding of this document.

Please re-read the actual document.


Background:

* IPv6 has always been specified and intended to carry 
  future options and extensions inside the pre-defined "bucket" 
  headers (e.g. Hop-by-Hop Header, Destination Options Header),
  each of which can contain multiple options concurrently.



In slightly more detail...

The document DOES now very clearly define the rules 
for creating new types of *headers*.  These are 
mostly documentation rules.  

	More dangerous behaviours, such as hop-by-hop behaviour, 
	will require more documentation to justify the necessity 
	of the more dangerous behaviour.

In any event, it is important to recall that defining 
a new "header type" is very different from defining 
new IPv6 options or IPv6 extensions.  

Yours,

Ran






From kauer@biplane.com.au  Sat Jul  2 16:15:15 2011
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From: Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au>
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On Sat, 2011-07-02 at 14:39 -0400, RJ Atkinson wrote:
> On 2nd July 2011, Karl Auer wrote, in part:
> > It seems strange to me that we define "IPv6 Extension Headers",
> > then refuse to allow any further extensions!
>=20
> Kindly note that this document does NOT prohibit future IPv6 extensions.
> That is a mis-understanding of this document.

I was not taking issue with the document, I was just commenting on your
assertion that it would be "highly undesirable" to create more extension
headers.

Sorry to have been unclear about that.

Regards, K.

--=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)

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From kauer@biplane.com.au  Sun Jul  3 10:04:04 2011
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Subject: subnet router anycast
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Which RFCs (or other sources) describe how IPv6 subnet anycast *works*?
In particular how it works when there are multiple routers in a single
subnet?

Regards, K.

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Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)

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From roland.bless@kit.edu  Sun Jul  3 14:50:36 2011
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Hi,

On 03.07.2011 19:03, Karl Auer wrote:
> Which RFCs (or other sources) describe how IPv6 subnet anycast *works*?
> In particular how it works when there are multiple routers in a single
> subnet?

That's a good question. I was also looking for that. It's distributed
across various RFCs:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
RFC4291:
   "A node is required to compute and join (on the appropriate interface)
   the associated Solicited-Node multicast addresses for all unicast and
   anycast addresses that have been configured for the node's interfaces
   (manually or automatically)."

RFC 4861:
7.2.7. Anycast Neighbor Advertisements


   From the perspective of Neighbor Discovery, anycast addresses are
   treated just like unicast addresses in most cases.  Because an
   anycast address is syntactically the same as a unicast address, nodes
   performing address resolution or Neighbor Unreachability Detection on
   an anycast address treat it as if it were a unicast address.  No
   special processing takes place.

   Nodes that have an anycast address assigned to an interface treat
   them exactly the same as if they were unicast addresses with two
   exceptions.  First, Neighbor Advertisements sent in response to a
   Neighbor Solicitation SHOULD be delayed by a random time between 0
   and MAX_ANYCAST_DELAY_TIME to reduce the probability of network
   congestion.  Second, the Override flag in Neighbor Advertisements
   SHOULD be set to 0, so that when multiple advertisements are
   received, the first received advertisement is used rather than the
   most recently received advertisement.

   As with unicast addresses, Neighbor Unreachability Detection ensures
   that a node quickly detects when the current binding for an anycast
   address becomes invalid.

RFC 4862:
   -  Duplicate Address Detection MUST NOT be performed on anycast
      addresses (note that anycast addresses cannot syntactically be
      distinguished from unicast addresses).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Multiple Routers are usually not a problem since
only one gets the packet for forwarding into the subnet.

Regards,
 Roland

From randy@psg.com  Sun Jul  3 15:02:02 2011
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Network Working Group                                            R. Bush
Internet-Draft                                                       IIJ
Intended status: Standards Track                             August 2010
Expires: February 2, 2011


                     IPv6 Subnet Anycast Deprecated
                    draft-ymbk-no-subnet-anycast-00

Abstract

   IPv6 subnet anycast is not used operationally, complicates
   implementations, and complicates protocol specifications.  The form
   of anycast actually used in the Internet is routing-based, and is
   essentilly the same as that of IPv4 anycast.  Therefore, this
   document deprecates IPv6 subnet anycast.

Status of this Memo

   This Internet-Draft is submitted in full conformance with the
   provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79.  This document may not be modified,
   and derivative works of it may not be created, and it may not be
   published except as an Internet-Draft.

   Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering
   Task Force (IETF).  Note that other groups may also distribute
   working documents as Internet-Drafts.  The list of current Internet-
   Drafts is at http://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/current/.

   Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months
   and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
   time.  It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference
   material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."

   This Internet-Draft will expire on February 2, 2011.

Copyright Notice

   Copyright (c) 2010 IETF Trust and the persons identified as the
   document authors.  All rights reserved.

   This document is subject to BCP 78 and the IETF Trust's Legal
   Provisions Relating to IETF Documents
   (http://trustee.ietf.org/license-info) in effect on the date of
   publication of this document.  Please review these documents
   carefully, as they describe your rights and restrictions with respect
   to this document.  Code Components extracted from this document must
   include Simplified BSD License text as described in Section 4.e of



Bush                    Expires February 2, 2011                [Page 1]

Internet-Draft       IPv6 Subnet Anycast Deprecated          August 2010


   the Trust Legal Provisions and are provided without warranty as
   described in the Simplified BSD License.


Table of Contents

   1.  Introduction  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
   2.  Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
   3.  IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
   4.  References  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
     4.1.  Normative References  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
     4.2.  Informative References  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
   Author's Address  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4






































Bush                    Expires February 2, 2011                [Page 2]

Internet-Draft       IPv6 Subnet Anycast Deprecated          August 2010


1.  Introduction

   The form of anycast which is used in the operational internet is
   described in [RFC4786].  This is used widely in IPv4 and IPv6.  To
   quote,

   "To distribute a service using anycast, the service is first
   associated with a stable set of IP addresses, and reachability to
   those addresses is advertised in a routing system from multiple,
   independent service nodes."

   IPv6 subnet anycast, as defined in [RFC2526], complicates host and
   router stacks.  It also makes address assignment unnecessarily
   complex, see [I-D.kohno-ipv6-prefixlen-p2p].

   IPv6 subnet anycast is not actually used or deployed.  In this case,
   it is sure that implementations are not even debugged.

   Therefore, this document deprecates IPv6 subnet anycast and removes
   conformance requirements from host and router implementations.


2.  Security Considerations

   There are no known security implications for this document.


3.  IANA Considerations

   This document has no IANA Considerations.


4.  References

4.1.  Normative References

   [RFC2526]  Johnson, D. and S. Deering, "Reserved IPv6 Subnet Anycast
              Addresses", RFC 2526, March 1999.

4.2.  Informative References

   [I-D.kohno-ipv6-prefixlen-p2p]
              Kohno, M., Nitzan, B., Bush, R., Matsuzaki, Y., and L.
              Colitti, "Using 127-bit IPv6 Prefixes on Inter-Router
              Links", draft-kohno-ipv6-prefixlen-p2p-02 (work in
              progress), July 2010.

   [RFC4786]  Abley, J. and K. Lindqvist, "Operation of Anycast



Bush                    Expires February 2, 2011                [Page 3]

Internet-Draft       IPv6 Subnet Anycast Deprecated          August 2010


              Services", BCP 126, RFC 4786, December 2006.


Author's Address

   Randy Bush
   Internet Initiative Japan, Inc.
   5147 Crystal Springs
   Bainbridge Island, Washington  98110
   US

   Phone: +1 206 780 0431 x1
   Email: randy@psg.com






































Bush                    Expires February 2, 2011                [Page 4]


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From: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
To: Roland Bless <roland.bless@kit.edu>
Subject: Re: subnet router anycast
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Hi,


On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 23:50:25 +0200
Roland Bless <roland.bless@kit.edu> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> On 03.07.2011 19:03, Karl Auer wrote:
> > Which RFCs (or other sources) describe how IPv6 subnet anycast *works*?
> > In particular how it works when there are multiple routers in a single
> > subnet?
> 
> That's a good question. I was also looking for that. It's distributed
> across various RFCs:
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

To make a higher level observation, I don't think it is any different
to the operation of host anycast, as the destination address in the
packet matches one of the router's own addresses, so the router would
process the packet in "host mode" rather than "forwarding mode". 

I suspect it was inspired by Appletalk's assignment of node ID zero on
each cable range to attached routers. That in turn was used by the Name
Binding Protocol for mapping host names to DDP addresses. Since
the goals of Multicast DNS and DNS-based Service Discovery are similar
to NBP, it may be possible that IPv6 router anycast could be used in a
similar way with mDNS and DNS-SD. 

Here's an ID on the topic of NBP/mDNS/DNS-SD - 

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cheshire-dnsext-nbp-10

If you're interested in the Appletalk spec that talks about DDP and
NBP, do an Internet search for "Inside Appletalk". It used to be a
freely downloadable PDF on Apple's website, but it seems to have
disappeared.

Regards,
Mark.

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References: <282787FA-C418-430C-B473-152B4FFE900C@gmail.com> <m1QZLSP-0001h8C@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <20110622210451.60ad8bce@opy.nosense.org> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1106221337411.19581@uplift.swm.pp.se> <CF7C688F-9262-4A6C-9B57-CFDDF94D246D@nominum.com> <20110623095548.24d89d7f@opy.nosense.org> <B5FBA399-6AAC-4036-A0D3-CAA546190B92@nominum.com> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1106230834580.19581@uplift.swm.pp.se> <63524B72-6890-48E4-926F-030744B415A2@nominum.com> <B0147C3DD45E42478038FC347CCB65FE02AFD2A65D@XCH-MW-08V.mw.nos.boeing.com> <EF0F62F1-DF98-4AFC-9884-D3D07BFC7C2D@nominum.com> <B0147C3DD45E42478038FC347CCB65FE02AFD2A67A@XCH-MW-08V.mw.nos.boeing.com>
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On Jun 23, 2011, at 2:31 PM, Manfredi, Albert E wrote:

> Ted Lemon wrote:
>=20
>> That's correct.   Ultimately the security of the client depends on =
the
>> client being secure.   Trying to secure the client by securing the
>> network is a noble cause, but ultimately doomed to failure, because =
you
>> can't control what networks the client connects to.
>=20
> No, I think you have it backwards.
>=20
> It is service providers that are interested in protecting their =
networks, in this discussion. If they also happen to protect their =
clients, that is just a nice byproduct.
>=20
> Service providers want to keep malicious clients from degrading their =
network.


as the former operator of some university residence hall networks, the =
goal is to minimize damage in a common l2 broadcast domain. =
Misconfigured or malicious users both cause similar sorts of damage, =
there's dramatically more of the former than the later.

> Bert
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>=20


From kauer@biplane.com.au  Sun Jul  3 17:06:12 2011
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Subject: Re: subnet router anycast
From: Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au>
To: IETF IPv6 <ipv6@ietf.org>
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On Mon, 2011-07-04 at 07:01 +0900, Randy Bush wrote:
> Intended status: Standards Track                             August 2010
> Expires: February 2, 2011
>                      IPv6 Subnet Anycast Deprecated
>                     draft-ymbk-no-subnet-anycast-00
>=20
> Abstract
>=20
>    IPv6 subnet anycast is not used operationally, complicates
>    implementations, and complicates protocol specifications.  The form
>    of anycast actually used in the Internet is routing-based, and is
>    essentilly the same as that of IPv4 anycast.  Therefore, this
>    document deprecates IPv6 subnet anycast.

Does this apply to subnet *router* anycast, or just subnet anycast? The
two are not quite the same, and the draft doesn't mention RFC4291.

I'd agree wholeheartedly with deprecating them both! But this draft
expired some months ago - what are its chances?

Regards, K.

--=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)

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Subject: Re: subnet router anycast
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On Mon, 2011-07-04 at 09:25 +0930, Mark Smith wrote:
> To make a higher level observation, I don't think it is any different
> to the operation of host anycast, as the destination address in the
> packet matches one of the router's own addresses, so the router would
> process the packet in "host mode" rather than "forwarding mode".=20

The big difference for me is that subnet anycast has to function without
the benefit of any routing as such - i.e., within a subnet. So something
was going on that was very different to IPv4 multicast IPv4. It was the
detail of how DAD, ND etc worked that had eluded me, thanks for that
excellent, concise answer.

Regards, K.

--=20
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http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)

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From randy@psg.com  Sun Jul  3 18:12:45 2011
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> I'd agree wholeheartedly with deprecating them both! But this draft
> expired some months ago - what are its chances?

i was discouraged by bob from submitting it.  dreadine approacheth.
should i?

randy

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Subject: Re: subnet router anycast
To: "Randy Bush" <randy@psg.com>
From: "Alastair Johnson" <aj@sneep.net>
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Yes please.

aj
 

------Original Message------
From: Randy Bush
Sender: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org
To: Karl Auer
Cc: IETF IPv6
Subject: Re: subnet router anycast
Sent: 3 Jul 2011 18:12

> I'd agree wholeheartedly with deprecating them both! But this draft
> expired some months ago - what are its chances?

i was discouraged by bob from submitting it.  dreadine approacheth.
should i?

randy
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Subject: Re: subnet router anycast
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On Jul 3, 2011 6:13 PM, "Randy Bush" <randy@psg.com> wrote:
>
> > I'd agree wholeheartedly with deprecating them both! But this draft
> > expired some months ago - what are its chances?
>
> i was discouraged by bob from submitting it.  dreadine approacheth.
> should i?
>

Yes, please

Cb
> randy
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<p><br>
On Jul 3, 2011 6:13 PM, &quot;Randy Bush&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randy@=
psg.com">randy@psg.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I&#39;d agree wholeheartedly with deprecating them both! But this=
 draft<br>
&gt; &gt; expired some months ago - what are its chances?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; i was discouraged by bob from submitting it. =A0dreadine approacheth.<=
br>
&gt; should i?<br>
&gt;</p>
<p>Yes, please </p>
<p>Cb<br>
&gt; randy<br>
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From ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org  Sun Jul  3 20:58:13 2011
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Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2011 13:28:09 +0930
From: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
To: Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au>
Subject: Re: subnet router anycast
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On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 10:06:07 +1000
Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au> wrote:

> On Mon, 2011-07-04 at 07:01 +0900, Randy Bush wrote:
> > Intended status: Standards Track                             August 2010
> > Expires: February 2, 2011
> >                      IPv6 Subnet Anycast Deprecated
> >                     draft-ymbk-no-subnet-anycast-00
> > 
> > Abstract
> > 
> >    IPv6 subnet anycast is not used operationally, complicates
> >    implementations, and complicates protocol specifications.  The form
> >    of anycast actually used in the Internet is routing-based, and is
> >    essentilly the same as that of IPv4 anycast.  Therefore, this
> >    document deprecates IPv6 subnet anycast.
> 
> Does this apply to subnet *router* anycast, or just subnet anycast? The
> two are not quite the same, and the draft doesn't mention RFC4291.
> 
> I'd agree wholeheartedly with deprecating them both! But this draft
> expired some months ago - what are its chances?
> 

Perhaps we should wait until IPv6 traffic exceeds IPv4's before
deciding. With the trivial amount of use that IPv6 currently has, it
makes no sense to say history shows it hasn't been useful and should be
deprecated.

> Regards, K.
> 
> -- 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
> http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)
> 
> GPG fingerprint: DA41 51B1 1481 16E1 F7E2 B2E9 3007 14ED 5736 F687
> Old fingerprint: B386 7819 B227 2961 8301 C5A9 2EBC 754B CD97 0156

From kauer@biplane.com.au  Sun Jul  3 21:23:55 2011
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On Mon, 2011-07-04 at 13:28 +0930, Mark Smith wrote:
> Perhaps we should wait until IPv6 traffic exceeds IPv4's before
> deciding. With the trivial amount of use that IPv6 currently has, it
> makes no sense to say history shows it hasn't been useful and should be
> deprecated.

On the other hand, if we can see now that they are unlikely to be useful
(and IMHO we *can* see that) then we are doing the world a service by
helping all those vendors NOT implement it :-)

There is no need for subnet anycast addresses, because any address can
be an anycast address. Only the node where an anycast address is
configured needs to know that it is an anycast address. That is, there
is no need to be able to recognise such an address from its format. Has
the use of IPv4 anycast been impeded by the inability to tell an anycast
address from an ordinary address?

There is also no need for subnet router anycast addresses, because a
node wanting to contact a router can use the all-routers-on-link
multicast address. Note that the subnet router anycast address doesn't
even ensure that the "nearest" router is contacted, which would arguably
have been useful, because the current spec deliberately builds in a
small random delay in responding, to avoid network congestion.

If I have missed some really good use for either set of anycast
addresses, please let me know!

Regards, K.

--=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)

GPG fingerprint: DA41 51B1 1481 16E1 F7E2 B2E9 3007 14ED 5736 F687
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From ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org  Sun Jul  3 22:29:14 2011
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Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2011 14:59:03 +0930
From: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
To: Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au>
Subject: Re: subnet router anycast
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Hi Karl,

On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 14:23:47 +1000
Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au> wrote:

> On Mon, 2011-07-04 at 13:28 +0930, Mark Smith wrote:
> > Perhaps we should wait until IPv6 traffic exceeds IPv4's before
> > deciding. With the trivial amount of use that IPv6 currently has, it
> > makes no sense to say history shows it hasn't been useful and should be
> > deprecated.
> 
> On the other hand, if we can see now that they are unlikely to be useful
> (and IMHO we *can* see that) then we are doing the world a service by
> helping all those vendors NOT implement it :-)
> 

I'd suggest many IPv6 implementations are, while possibly not well
exercised, are quite mature. Anycast addresses have been in the IPv6
specs for many years, and there are a number of implementations.
Cisco's IOS supports them, as does Linux, Windows and probably Mac OS X.

> There is no need for subnet anycast addresses, because any address can
> be an anycast address. Only the node where an anycast address is
> configured needs to know that it is an anycast address. That is, there
> is no need to be able to recognise such an address from its format. Has
> the use of IPv4 anycast been impeded by the inability to tell an anycast
> address from an ordinary address?
> 

IPv4 anycast is a routing/forwarding plane trick (and a fault if not
intended), and only works if the designated IPv4 anycast address is off
link. It is not possible under IPv4 to have an on-link anycast address,
because the routing/forwarding plane isn't involved.

The same routing/forwarding plane trick will work with IPv6. What has
been added in IPv6 is formal support of anycast addresses that are
onlink within the neighbor discovery / address resolution protocol. To
do the equivalent under IPv4 ARP would have to be changed.

> There is also no need for subnet router anycast addresses, because a
> node wanting to contact a router can use the all-routers-on-link
> multicast address. Note that the subnet router anycast address doesn't
> even ensure that the "nearest" router is contacted, which would arguably
> have been useful, because the current spec deliberately builds in a
> small random delay in responding, to avoid network congestion.
> 

You seem to only looking at it from the point of view of a traffic
source being onlink and wanting to send to the subnet router anycast
address.

The all-routers-on-link multicast address could not be used if the
traffic source is off-link. Some scenarios where this might
be useful is to be able to establish a BGP session over TCP with the
closest router on the remote subnet, or perhaps a GRE or IPsec tunnel
with the closest router on the remote subnet. If that router fails,
anycast will take care of re-establishing these services to the next
closest router without intervention. These scenarios aren't really that
special, all you are doing is using anycast to access remote
services that just happen to reside on a router instead of a host.

> If I have missed some really good use for either set of anycast
> addresses, please let me know!
> 

I think another beneficial use of IPv6 (on-link) anycast could be to
replace on-link multicast for NTP, reducing the multicast traffic on
the segment. The NTP client would send to an anycast address (e.g.
supplied via DHCPv6) that all the on-link NTP servers are configured
with. IPv6 ND would resolve that anycast address to one of the NTP
servers, and after that, all NTP traffic would be unicast between the
client and the selected server. If the selected NTP server fails, IPv6
NUD would detect that, triggering another anycast ND address resolution
process. Fail over detection doesn't need to be fast in this scenario
because hosts run their own clocks (always easy to forget that NTP is a
time sync, not a time supply service!), and NTP transactions normally
happen only once every 60 seconds or so.

There may be other similar IPv4 multicast applications I'm not aware
of that could benefit from IPv6's formal anycast capability in a similar
way when IPv6 support is added.

Regards,
Mark.

From randy@psg.com  Sun Jul  3 22:43:34 2011
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From: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>
To: Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au>
Subject: Re: subnet router anycast
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> On Mon, 2011-07-04 at 13:28 +0930, Mark Smith wrote:
>> Perhaps we should wait until IPv6 traffic exceeds IPv4's before
>> deciding. With the trivial amount of use that IPv6 currently has, it
>> makes no sense to say history shows it hasn't been useful and should be
>> deprecated.

rofl.  these are the same folk that also say "you can not change X in
IPv6 because IPv6 is already deployed for a decade."

> On the other hand, if we can see now that they are unlikely to be
> useful (and IMHO we *can* see that) then we are doing the world a
> service by helping all those vendors NOT implement it :-)

and getting unneeded crap out of a code-path which some day may need to
perform.

> There is no need for subnet anycast addresses, because any address can
> be an anycast address. Only the node where an anycast address is
> configured needs to know that it is an anycast address. That is, there
> is no need to be able to recognise such an address from its format. Has
> the use of IPv4 anycast been impeded by the inability to tell an anycast
> address from an ordinary address?
> 
> There is also no need for subnet router anycast addresses, because a
> node wanting to contact a router can use the all-routers-on-link
> multicast address. Note that the subnet router anycast address doesn't
> even ensure that the "nearest" router is contacted, which would arguably
> have been useful, because the current spec deliberately builds in a
> small random delay in responding, to avoid network congestion.

may i steal your text?

randy

From kauer@biplane.com.au  Mon Jul  4 00:27:40 2011
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Subject: Re: subnet router anycast
From: Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au>
To: IETF IPv6 <ipv6@ietf.org>
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On Mon, 2011-07-04 at 16:34 +0930, Mark Smith wrote:
> I missed this earlier -
>=20
> > Note that the subnet router anycast address doesn't
> > even ensure that the "nearest" router is contacted, which would arguabl=
y
> > have been useful, because the current spec deliberately builds in a
> > small random delay in responding, to avoid network congestion.
> >=20
>=20
> Are you referring to rfc4861, section 7.2.7? The thing that makes the
> first/quickest response "stick" is the Override flag being set to 0 -

That's correct, the first/quickest response will stick. The thing that
stops that working in the sense of getting to the "nearest" router is
this:

   "Nodes that have an anycast address assigned to an interface treat
   them exactly the same as if they were unicast addresses with two
   exceptions.  First, Neighbor Advertisements sent in response to a
   Neighbor Solicitation SHOULD be delayed by a random time between 0
   and MAX_ANYCAST_DELAY_TIME to reduce the probability of network
   congestion.  Second, the Override flag in Neighbor Advertisements
   SHOULD be set to 0, so that when multiple advertisements are
   received, the first received advertisement is used rather than the
   most recently received advertisement."

Because of that random delay, the nearest router may not be the one that
"wins". It's a SHOULD, so I suppose implementations could choose to
ignore that. Unless there are a LOT of routers on the link, network
congestion is most unlikely to be a problem, and leaving out the delay
would help the nearest router "win".

But I simply see no point to the subnet router anycast address. Is there
any use case that could not be equally well dealt with using
all-routers-on-link or normal routed anycast?

Regards, K.

--=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)

GPG fingerprint: DA41 51B1 1481 16E1 F7E2 B2E9 3007 14ED 5736 F687
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From randy@psg.com  Mon Jul  4 00:34:42 2011
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From: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>
To: Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au>
Subject: Re: subnet router anycast
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could you explain to my why i would want to reach any random router on a
lan?  some mey go to florida, others to shinjuku, and one goes to hell
in a handbasket.

randy

From kauer@biplane.com.au  Mon Jul  4 00:36:00 2011
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On Mon, 2011-07-04 at 14:59 +0930, Mark Smith wrote:
> You seem to only looking at it from the point of view of a traffic
> source being onlink and wanting to send to the subnet router anycast
> address.

Yes and no.

Let me first say that I think anycast is great! I'm not advocating
disposing of anycast. And I like the idea of onlink anycast - I just
don't want reserved addresses for it!

Perhaps someone could enlighten me - is there any way to tell an
interface that the address it has is an anycast address? Or is the only
way it can know because of the specific addresses used? That is, subnet
router address or addresses with the right bits set, i.e., subnet
anycast addresses?

If there is no way to specify to an interface that an address is an
anycast address, then there would seem to be no way to deprecate both
subnet router anycast and subnet anycast addresses without also
deprecating the whole idea of onlink anycast.

I'm starting to wonder whether this is a bigger can of worms than I
first thought...

Regards, K.

--=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)

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On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 17:35:54 +1000
Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au> wrote:

> On Mon, 2011-07-04 at 14:59 +0930, Mark Smith wrote:
> > You seem to only looking at it from the point of view of a traffic
> > source being onlink and wanting to send to the subnet router anycast
> > address.
> 
> Yes and no.
> 
> Let me first say that I think anycast is great! I'm not advocating
> disposing of anycast. And I like the idea of onlink anycast - I just
> don't want reserved addresses for it!
> 

The reserving of addresses is so that the are autoconfigured and
therefore well known and "well available" ones. It's no different to the
idea of having reserved well known ports, multicast groups or unicast
addresses.

> Perhaps someone could enlighten me - is there any way to tell an
> interface that the address it has is an anycast address?

Yes, there is (and has to be) a flag specified when the address is
assigned to nominate it as an anycast address.

> Or is the only
> way it can know because of the specific addresses used? That is, subnet
> router address or addresses with the right bits set, i.e., subnet
> anycast addresses?
> 
> If there is no way to specify to an interface that an address is an
> anycast address, then there would seem to be no way to deprecate both
> subnet router anycast and subnet anycast addresses without also
> deprecating the whole idea of onlink anycast.
> 
> I'm starting to wonder whether this is a bigger can of worms than I
> first thought...
> 
> Regards, K.
> 
> -- 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
> http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)
> 
> GPG fingerprint: DA41 51B1 1481 16E1 F7E2 B2E9 3007 14ED 5736 F687
> Old fingerprint: B386 7819 B227 2961 8301 C5A9 2EBC 754B CD97 0156

From ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org  Mon Jul  4 00:54:07 2011
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From: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
To: Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au>
Subject: Re: subnet router anycast
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Hi Karl,

On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 14:23:47 +1000
Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au> wrote:

> On Mon, 2011-07-04 at 13:28 +0930, Mark Smith wrote:
> > Perhaps we should wait until IPv6 traffic exceeds IPv4's before
> > deciding. With the trivial amount of use that IPv6 currently has, it
> > makes no sense to say history shows it hasn't been useful and should be
> > deprecated.
> 
<snip>

I missed this earlier -

> Note that the subnet router anycast address doesn't
> even ensure that the "nearest" router is contacted, which would arguably
> have been useful, because the current spec deliberately builds in a
> small random delay in responding, to avoid network congestion.
> 

Are you referring to rfc4861, section 7.2.7? The thing that makes the
first/quickest response "stick" is the Override flag being set to 0 -

"  Second, the Override flag in Neighbor Advertisements
   SHOULD be set to 0, so that when multiple advertisements are
   received, the first received advertisement is used rather than the
   most recently received advertisement."

So the difference between IPv4 ARP and IPv6 ND is that IPv4 ARP will
always use the most recent/last reply it received. Normal unicast IPv6
ND works the same way, for NAs that have the default of the Override
flag set. When a NA for an anycast address is sent/received, the
Override flag is not set, and therefore the receiving host will use the
information in the first and quickest response it received rather than
the last.

I don't seem to be able to find anything that says subnet router
anycast addresses are to be treated differently to the above, have you
a reference I could look at?

Thanks,
Mark.

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From: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
To: Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au>
Subject: Re: subnet router anycast
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On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 17:27:24 +1000
Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au> wrote:

> On Mon, 2011-07-04 at 16:34 +0930, Mark Smith wrote:
> > I missed this earlier -
> > 
> > > Note that the subnet router anycast address doesn't
> > > even ensure that the "nearest" router is contacted, which would arguably
> > > have been useful, because the current spec deliberately builds in a
> > > small random delay in responding, to avoid network congestion.
> > > 
> > 
> > Are you referring to rfc4861, section 7.2.7? The thing that makes the
> > first/quickest response "stick" is the Override flag being set to 0 -
> 
> That's correct, the first/quickest response will stick. The thing that
> stops that working in the sense of getting to the "nearest" router is
> this:
> 
>    "Nodes that have an anycast address assigned to an interface treat
>    them exactly the same as if they were unicast addresses with two
>    exceptions.  First, Neighbor Advertisements sent in response to a
>    Neighbor Solicitation SHOULD be delayed by a random time between 0
>    and MAX_ANYCAST_DELAY_TIME to reduce the probability of network
>    congestion.  Second, the Override flag in Neighbor Advertisements
>    SHOULD be set to 0, so that when multiple advertisements are
>    received, the first received advertisement is used rather than the
>    most recently received advertisement."
> 
> Because of that random delay, the nearest router may not be the one that
> "wins". It's a SHOULD, so I suppose implementations could choose to
> ignore that. Unless there are a LOT of routers on the link, network
> congestion is most unlikely to be a problem, and leaving out the delay
> would help the nearest router "win".
> 

Ok, so it seems a bit of variation has been added in so that the
anycast "clients" are likely to be spread more across all the available
anycast servers. This is probably not a bad thing. I'd been assuming it
was working like PPPoE does, where the first BRAS to respond is
(usually) the one chosen by the client. However I have seen a scenario
where out of a group of equal capacity and performance BRASes, when one
of them was placed one extra layer 2 hop away (i.e. a switch inserted
between it and the switch the others were attached to), quite
surprisingly customer connections drifted away from it over time,
despite it being less loaded, and therefore in theory should be the
fastest to respond. This extra switch hop was only adding microseconds
of latency to customer's ADSL connections that had latencies in the
order of 9 to 20ms. Adding some variation into the PADOs as per the
method above would probably have lessened if not eliminated this
customer session drift.



> But I simply see no point to the subnet router anycast address. Is there
> any use case that could not be equally well dealt with using
> all-routers-on-link or normal routed anycast?
> 
> Regards, K.
> 
> -- 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
> http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)
> 
> GPG fingerprint: DA41 51B1 1481 16E1 F7E2 B2E9 3007 14ED 5736 F687
> Old fingerprint: B386 7819 B227 2961 8301 C5A9 2EBC 754B CD97 0156

From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com  Mon Jul  4 01:44:37 2011
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Le 04/07/2011 09:34, Randy Bush a �crit :
> could you explain to my why i would want to reach any random router
> on a lan?

Maybe for a form of reliability and, indirectly, bootstrapping - of
Mobile IPv6.

Mobile IPv6 has this DHAAD procedure by which a MH sends a request with
dst address an anycast address ("HAs on the home link").  Only one
HA will reply even though several may be present in the same lan subnet.
  They have previously synched among them (a preference field in RA) to
decide who's to send that reply.

Thus, anycast and multiple HA on the home link is advantageous for
reliability of Mobile IPv6.

Indirectly, this use of anycast means bootstrapping also is easier: the
HA anycast identifier being well-known, a MH is to be preconfigured
solely with the prefix of its home link (it subsequently obtains
dynamically its Home Address, the HA address and so on.)

Alex

> some mey go to florida, others to shinjuku, and one goes to hell in a
> handbasket.
>
> randy
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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From roland.bless@kit.edu  Mon Jul  4 03:22:42 2011
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Hi Randy,

On 04.07.2011 00:01, Randy Bush wrote:
>    IPv6 subnet anycast is not used operationally, complicates
>    implementations, and complicates protocol specifications.  The form
>    of anycast actually used in the Internet is routing-based, and is
>    essentilly the same as that of IPv4 anycast.  Therefore, this
>    document deprecates IPv6 subnet anycast.

I was more referring to host anycast, I don't care about the
special anycast addresses of routers as defined in sec. 2.6.1.
of RFC 4291 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4291#section-2.6.1.
or also RFC2526.

There are definitely cases where it can be useful to have a group of
anycast hosts inside a subnet, e.g., in order to increase robustness
of services etc. For instance, we had a nice use case for bootstrapping
into P2P networks by using subnet anycast addresses. There is no need
to inject anycast routes into the routing system for this.
I don't see the point why the currently proposed mechanisms (as I quoted
in my earlier mail) complicates protocol specifications. All that a host
must do is to join the solicited node multicast address for
the anycast address, and then to omit DAD. Setting the overwrite flag
to zero for an NA is also not such a big thing.
I don't see a need to implement any special functionality in routers
and I don't see how anycast complicates the host stacks as this boils
down to: support a local anycast flag for addresses; if flag is set
then omit DAD; when sending a neighbor advertisement: the overwrite
flag to zero if flag is set. Seems to be simple enough...

Regards,
 Roland

From randy@psg.com  Mon Jul  4 03:35:53 2011
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From: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>
To: Roland Bless <roland.bless@kit.edu>
Subject: Re: subnet router anycast
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> There are definitely cases where it can be useful to have a group of
> anycast hosts inside a subnet, e.g., in order to increase robustness
> of services etc.

do you use this in production or test?

randy

From roland.bless@kit.edu  Mon Jul  4 03:50:48 2011
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Hi Randy,

Am 04.07.2011 12:35, schrieb Randy Bush:
>> There are definitely cases where it can be useful to have a group of
>> anycast hosts inside a subnet, e.g., in order to increase robustness
>> of services etc.
> 
> do you use this in production or test?

Frankly said, I wasn't aware that they basic mechanisms
are so simple and thought that one would need some MLD
equivalent for anycast, which would have been a major effort.
However, after browsing some RFCs I found that it should
simply work out of the box if the specs are implemented correctly.
Therefore, we are currently testing it, but
we'd like to use it in production for P2P bootstrapping.

Regards,
 Roland

From kauer@biplane.com.au  Mon Jul  4 04:01:34 2011
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Subject: Re: subnet router anycast
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On Mon, 2011-07-04 at 17:23 +0930, Mark Smith wrote:
> The reserving of addresses is so that the are autoconfigured and
> therefore well known and "well available" ones. It's no different to the
> idea of having reserved well known ports, multicast groups or unicast
> addresses.

That's fine - but we should not reserve addresses unless there is a
point to doing so. I can see no reason why there should be a group of
addresses designated "anycast" at the top of the subnet (the subnet
anycast addresses). And so far, no-one has provided a use case that
shows why they need to be reserved.

> Yes, there is (and has to be) a flag specified when the address is
> assigned to nominate it as an anycast address.

I'm glad there is, because that means we do not need to reserve those
addresses.

Regards, K.

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Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)

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From kauer@biplane.com.au  Mon Jul  4 04:06:42 2011
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Subject: Re: subnet router anycast
From: Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au>
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On Mon, 2011-07-04 at 17:37 +0930, Mark Smith wrote:
> Ok, so it seems a bit of variation has been added in so that the
> anycast "clients" are likely to be spread more across all the available
> anycast servers. This is probably not a bad thing.

I'm happy to have it, or not have it. But the current discussion is
about whether to reserve the subnet router anycast address and/or the
subnet anycast addresses. It is not about whether to have on-link
anycast at all.=20

We can have anycast, however it may be implemented, without reserving
special addresses for it.

Regards, K.

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Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)

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On Mon, 2011-07-04 at 10:44 +0200, Alexandru Petrescu wrote:
> Thus, anycast and multiple HA on the home link is advantageous for
> reliability of Mobile IPv6.

Again, I'm not proposing that we deprecate the mechanisms for on-link
anycast. Only that we should not reserve the subnet router anycast
and/or the subnet anycast addresses.

Regards, K.

--=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)

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Subject: Re: subnet router anycast
From: Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au>
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On Mon, 2011-07-04 at 16:34 +0900, Randy Bush wrote:
> could you explain to my why i would want to reach any random router on a
> lan?  some mey go to florida, others to shinjuku, and one goes to hell
> in a handbasket.

heh :-)

Randy, are we actually on the same page? I like the idea of on-link
anycast in general, but do not see why we should reserve any addresses
for it. I'm therefore in favour of deprecating both the subnet router
anycast address and the subnet anycast addresses. Which is (I think) all
your draft is advocating...?

Regards, K.

--=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)

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From mark@townsley.net  Mon Jul  4 04:30:56 2011
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Subject: Re: subnet router anycast
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6rd makes use of the v6 subnet router anycast, see section 5 of RFC5969. =
In short, this allows a CE to construct a ping with a well-known =
destination that will be returned by one of the BRs. Operators like this =
because it allows them to fairly easily get a good indication of  which =
BR a given CE is likely traversing when sending traffic.=20

Also, at the last IETF meeting the DHC WG took on an effort to describe =
the use of subnet router anycast here:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-guo-softwire-6rd-ipv6-config-02

...in a more generic manner for use with DHCPv6 (which 6rd could in turn =
use). I suspect the -00 is either just out or will be very soon.

- Mark

On Jul 4, 2011, at 1:09 PM, Karl Auer wrote:

> On Mon, 2011-07-04 at 10:44 +0200, Alexandru Petrescu wrote:
>> Thus, anycast and multiple HA on the home link is advantageous for
>> reliability of Mobile IPv6.
>=20
> Again, I'm not proposing that we deprecate the mechanisms for on-link
> anycast. Only that we should not reserve the subnet router anycast
> and/or the subnet anycast addresses.
>=20
> Regards, K.
>=20
> --=20
> =
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
> http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 =
(mob)
>=20
> GPG fingerprint: DA41 51B1 1481 16E1 F7E2 B2E9 3007 14ED 5736 F687
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> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------


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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>6rd makes use of the v6 subnet =
router anycast, see section 5 of RFC5969. In short, this allows a CE to =
construct a ping with a well-known destination that will be returned by =
one of the BRs. Operators like this because it allows them to fairly =
easily get a good indication of &nbsp;which BR a given CE is likely =
traversing when sending traffic.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Also, at =
the last IETF meeting the DHC WG took on an effort to describe the use =
of subnet router anycast here:</div><div><br></div><div><a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-guo-softwire-6rd-ipv6-config-02">=
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-guo-softwire-6rd-ipv6-config-02</a></div>=
<div><br></div><div>...in a more generic manner for use with DHCPv6 =
(which 6rd could in turn use). I suspect the -00 is either just out or =
will be very soon.</div><div><br></div><div>- Mark</div><br><div><div>On =
Jul 4, 2011, at 1:09 PM, Karl Auer wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On =
Mon, 2011-07-04 at 10:44 +0200, Alexandru Petrescu wrote:<br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">Thus, anycast and multiple HA on the home link is =
advantageous for<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">reliability =
of Mobile IPv6.<br></blockquote><br>Again, I'm not proposing that we =
deprecate the mechanisms for on-link<br>anycast. Only that we should not =
reserve the subnet router anycast<br>and/or the subnet anycast =
addresses.<br><br>Regards, K.<br><br>-- =
<br>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~=
~<br>Karl Auer (<a =
href=3D"mailto:kauer@biplane.com.au">kauer@biplane.com.au</a>) =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+61-2-64957160 (h)<br><a =
href=3D"http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/">http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/=
</a> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+61-428-957160 (mob)<br><br>GPG =
fingerprint: DA41 51B1 1481 16E1 F7E2 B2E9 3007 14ED 5736 F687<br>Old =
fingerprint: B386 7819 B227 2961 8301 C5A9 2EBC 754B CD97 =
0156<br>------------------------------------------------------------------=
--<br>IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br>Administrative =
Requests: =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6<br>----------------------------=
----------------------------------------<br></div></blockquote></div><br><=
/body></html>=

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From kauer@biplane.com.au  Mon Jul  4 04:54:51 2011
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Subject: Re: subnet router anycast
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On Mon, 2011-07-04 at 13:30 +0200, Mark Townsley wrote:
> 6rd makes use of the v6 subnet router anycast
> [...]
> Also, at the last IETF meeting the DHC WG took on an effort to
> describe the use of subnet router anycast here:
>=20
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-guo-softwire-6rd-ipv6-config-02

On an admittedly rapid read through those texts (RFC3315, RFC5969, the
above draft) all references to subnet router anycast addresses were
inside "SHOULD" clauses. Which implies that there are alternative
methods of achieving those aims?

One alternative would be to make the subnet router anycast address
well-known rather than reserved. Then it could be used in environments
that need it, and would not interfere in environments that do not.

Regards, K.

--=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)

GPG fingerprint: DA41 51B1 1481 16E1 F7E2 B2E9 3007 14ED 5736 F687
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On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 21:01:27 +1000
Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au> wrote:

> On Mon, 2011-07-04 at 17:23 +0930, Mark Smith wrote:
> > The reserving of addresses is so that the are autoconfigured and
> > therefore well known and "well available" ones. It's no different to the
> > idea of having reserved well known ports, multicast groups or unicast
> > addresses.
> 
> That's fine - but we should not reserve addresses unless there is a
> point to doing so.
> I can see no reason why there should be a group of
> addresses designated "anycast" at the top of the subnet (the subnet
> anycast addresses). And so far, no-one has provided a use case that
> shows why they need to be reserved.
> 

Sometimes you have to have the base capability widely available before
it is attractive to people to use. By insisting on a use
case, you may be creating a chicken and egg problem. See the "success"
of IPv4 multicast, bearing in mind that it was specified in RFC1119,
August 1989. Perhaps it would have been more widely used if it had been
more widely available in the 90s. That's why it's been part of IPv6
from day one.

If every router supports the subnet anycast address, because it is a
mandated requirement, you can develop and deploy something that relies
on it. If the availability is limited, you end up duplicating the same
mechanism some other way at the cost of additional effort, or don't
bother at all because those additional costs are too high.

> > Yes, there is (and has to be) a flag specified when the address is
> > assigned to nominate it as an anycast address.
> 
> I'm glad there is, because that means we do not need to reserve those
> addresses.
> 
> Regards, K.
> 
> -- 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
> http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)
> 
> GPG fingerprint: DA41 51B1 1481 16E1 F7E2 B2E9 3007 14ED 5736 F687
> Old fingerprint: B386 7819 B227 2961 8301 C5A9 2EBC 754B CD97 0156

From kauer@biplane.com.au  Mon Jul  4 06:16:20 2011
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Subject: Re: subnet router anycast
From: Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au>
To: IETF IPv6 <ipv6@ietf.org>
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On Mon, 2011-07-04 at 22:12 +0930, Mark Smith wrote:
> If every router supports the subnet anycast address, because it is a
> mandated requirement, you can develop and deploy something that relies
> on it. If the availability is limited, you end up duplicating the same
> mechanism some other way at the cost of additional effort, or don't
> bother at all because those additional costs are too high.

For situations apparently needing the subnet router anycast address,
there is the all-routers-on-link multicast address. Not that it would
normally be needed, because any node on the link has (or can cheaply
build) a list of all routers on the link by just watching the RAs,
something it has to do anyway. A node can then choose a router at
random, or any router based on any criteria it likes. Alternatively an
application can ping the all-routers-on-link multicast address and build
a list of responders. There is no need for the subnet router anycast
address.

The subnet anycast addresses are reserved but not necessarily used. Any
node actually sending to one must therefore first acquire information
about which one to send to. The source of that information could just as
well supply any address. On the other side of the equation, an
application wanting to use one of the reserved addresses must somehow
publish information about which one it is using. Again, that could just
as well convey information about any address. There is no need for the
subnet anycast addresses to be reserved.

Seriously, I'm not being bloody-minded. I simply cannot see a good
reason for either of these two reserved address sets. If someone can
provide any, I will immediately retract everything I have said and
maintain the opposite :-)

Regards, K.

--=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)

GPG fingerprint: DA41 51B1 1481 16E1 F7E2 B2E9 3007 14ED 5736 F687
Old fingerprint: B386 7819 B227 2961 8301 C5A9 2EBC 754B CD97 0156

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From randy@psg.com  Mon Jul  4 06:36:18 2011
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From: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>
To: Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au>
Subject: Re: subnet router anycast
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References: <1309712636.2490.203.camel@karl> <4E10E421.5020804@kit.edu> <m2sjqnhvld.wl%randy@psg.com> <1309737967.2490.218.camel@karl> <20110704132809.25f4cac9@opy.nosense.org> <1309753427.2490.299.camel@karl> <20110704145903.7765e0df@opy.nosense.org> <1309764954.2490.324.camel@karl> <20110704172359.7b858037@opy.nosense.org> <1309777287.2490.342.camel@karl> <20110704221257.05e845a7@opy.nosense.org> <1309785372.2490.389.camel@karl>
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it's getting late evening here, and the -00 dreadline approaches.  so i
have submitted so that we have something concrete to discuss.

randy

From mark@townsley.net  Mon Jul  4 09:51:52 2011
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On Jul 4, 2011, at 1:54 PM, Karl Auer wrote:

> On Mon, 2011-07-04 at 13:30 +0200, Mark Townsley wrote:
>> 6rd makes use of the v6 subnet router anycast
>> [...]
>> Also, at the last IETF meeting the DHC WG took on an effort to
>> describe the use of subnet router anycast here:
>>=20
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-guo-softwire-6rd-ipv6-config-02
>=20
> On an admittedly rapid read through those texts (RFC3315, RFC5969, the
> above draft) all references to subnet router anycast addresses were
> inside "SHOULD" clauses. Which implies that there are alternative
> methods of achieving those aims?

In this case, the alternative is to simply not have the troubleshooting =
feature.

- Mark

>=20
> One alternative would be to make the subnet router anycast address
> well-known rather than reserved. Then it could be used in environments
> that need it, and would not interfere in environments that do not.
>=20
> Regards, K.
>=20
> --=20
> =
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
> http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 =
(mob)
>=20
> GPG fingerprint: DA41 51B1 1481 16E1 F7E2 B2E9 3007 14ED 5736 F687
> Old fingerprint: B386 7819 B227 2961 8301 C5A9 2EBC 754B CD97 0156
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From mark@townsley.net  Mon Jul  4 09:52:46 2011
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On Jul 4, 2011, at 3:16 PM, Karl Auer wrote:

> On Mon, 2011-07-04 at 22:12 +0930, Mark Smith wrote:
>> If every router supports the subnet anycast address, because it is a
>> mandated requirement, you can develop and deploy something that =
relies
>> on it. If the availability is limited, you end up duplicating the =
same
>> mechanism some other way at the cost of additional effort, or don't
>> bother at all because those additional costs are too high.
>=20
> For situations apparently needing the subnet router anycast address,
> there is the all-routers-on-link multicast address. Not that it would
> normally be needed, because any node on the link has (or can cheaply
> build) a list of all routers on the link by just watching the RAs,
> something it has to do anyway. A node can then choose a router at
> random, or any router based on any criteria it likes. Alternatively an
> application can ping the all-routers-on-link multicast address and =
build
> a list of responders. There is no need for the subnet router anycast
> address.

A residential gateway router is not going to be able to do this for a =
variety of reasons.=20

- Mark

>=20
> The subnet anycast addresses are reserved but not necessarily used. =
Any
> node actually sending to one must therefore first acquire information
> about which one to send to. The source of that information could just =
as
> well supply any address. On the other side of the equation, an
> application wanting to use one of the reserved addresses must somehow
> publish information about which one it is using. Again, that could =
just
> as well convey information about any address. There is no need for the
> subnet anycast addresses to be reserved.
>=20
> Seriously, I'm not being bloody-minded. I simply cannot see a good
> reason for either of these two reserved address sets. If someone can
> provide any, I will immediately retract everything I have said and
> maintain the opposite :-)
>=20
> Regards, K.
>=20
> --=20
> =
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
> http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 =
(mob)
>=20
> GPG fingerprint: DA41 51B1 1481 16E1 F7E2 B2E9 3007 14ED 5736 F687
> Old fingerprint: B386 7819 B227 2961 8301 C5A9 2EBC 754B CD97 0156
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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From kauer@biplane.com.au  Mon Jul  4 16:08:49 2011
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Subject: Re: subnet router anycast
From: Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au>
To: IETF IPv6 <ipv6@ietf.org>
In-Reply-To: <F0D5F9BA-56B7-41EA-BF7E-655707F7D8C5@townsley.net>
References: <1309712636.2490.203.camel@karl> <4E10E421.5020804@kit.edu> <m2sjqnhvld.wl%randy@psg.com> <1309737967.2490.218.camel@karl> <20110704132809.25f4cac9@opy.nosense.org> <1309753427.2490.299.camel@karl> <20110704145903.7765e0df@opy.nosense.org> <1309764954.2490.324.camel@karl> <20110704172359.7b858037@opy.nosense.org> <1309777287.2490.342.camel@karl> <20110704221257.05e845a7@opy.nosense.org> <1309785372.2490.389.camel@karl> <F0D5F9BA-56B7-41EA-BF7E-655707F7D8C5@townsley.net>
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On Mon, 2011-07-04 at 18:52 +0200, Mark Townsley wrote:
> > For situations apparently needing the subnet router anycast address,
> > there is the all-routers-on-link multicast address. Not that it would
> > normally be needed, because any node on the link has (or can cheaply
> > build) a list of all routers on the link by just watching the RAs,
> > something it has to do anyway. A node can then choose a router at
> > random, or any router based on any criteria it likes. Alternatively an
> > application can ping the all-routers-on-link multicast address and buil=
d
> > a list of responders. There is no need for the subnet router anycast
> > address.
>=20
> A residential gateway router is not going to be able to do this for a var=
iety of reasons.=20

Could you expand on that? Do you mean on the inside network or the
outside network And which of the three alternatives (all-routers,
RA-watching, ping) are not going to work?=20

Regards, K.

--=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)

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Karl,

>>> For situations apparently needing the subnet router anycast address,
>>> there is the all-routers-on-link multicast address. Not that it =
would
>>> normally be needed, because any node on the link has (or can cheaply
>>> build) a list of all routers on the link by just watching the RAs,
>>> something it has to do anyway. A node can then choose a router at
>>> random, or any router based on any criteria it likes. Alternatively =
an
>>> application can ping the all-routers-on-link multicast address and =
build
>>> a list of responders. There is no need for the subnet router anycast
>>> address.
>>=20
>> A residential gateway router is not going to be able to do this for a =
variety of reasons.=20
>=20
> Could you expand on that? Do you mean on the inside network or the
> outside network And which of the three alternatives (all-routers,
> RA-watching, ping) are not going to work?=20

from RFC5969:
   The 6rd link is modeled as an NBMA link similar to other automatic
   IPv6 in IPv4 tunneling mechanisms like [RFC5214], with all 6rd CEs
   and BRs defined as off-link neighbors from one other.  The link-local
   address of a 6rd virtual interface performing the 6rd encapsulation
   would, if needed, be formed as described in Section 3.7 of [RFC4213].=20=

   However, no communication using link-local addresses will occur.

a 6rd link doesn't have RAs, and doesn't support link-local addressing.

cheers,
Ole=

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Tue Jul  5 06:28:43 2011
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From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
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Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-flow-ecmp-04.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Maintenance Working Group of the=
 IETF.

	Title           : Using the IPv6 flow label for equal cost multipath routi=
ng and link aggregation in tunnels
	Author(s)       : Brian Carpenter
                          Shane Amante
	Filename        : draft-ietf-6man-flow-ecmp-04.txt
	Pages           : 10
	Date            : 2011-07-05

   The IPv6 flow label has certain restrictions on its use.  This
   document describes how those restrictions apply when using the flow
   label for load balancing by equal cost multipath routing, and for
   link aggregation, particularly for IP-in-IPv6 tunneled traffic.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-flow-ecmp-04.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-flow-ecmp-04.txt

From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Tue Jul  5 06:34:53 2011
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This version fixes the two comments received during IETF Last Call
(expanding an acronym, and noting in the security considerations that
label values should be unpredictable). We'll also need to expand on
the unpredictability point in 3697bis, when its Last Call ends.

Regards
   Brian

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-flow-ecmp-04.txt
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2011 06:28:43 -0700
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
CC: ipv6@ietf.org

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6
Maintenance Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Using the IPv6 flow label for equal cost multipath routing and link aggregation in tunnels
	Author(s)       : Brian Carpenter
                          Shane Amante
	Filename        : draft-ietf-6man-flow-ecmp-04.txt
	Pages           : 10
	Date            : 2011-07-05

   The IPv6 flow label has certain restrictions on its use.  This
   document describes how those restrictions apply when using the flow
   label for load balancing by equal cost multipath routing, and for
   link aggregation, particularly for IP-in-IPv6 tunneled traffic.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-flow-ecmp-04.txt



From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Tue Jul  5 06:41:52 2011
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Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-flow-update-07.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Maintenance Working Group of the=
 IETF.

	Title           : Rationale for update to the IPv6 flow label specification
	Author(s)       : Shane Amante
                          Brian Carpenter
                          Sheng Jiang
	Filename        : draft-ietf-6man-flow-update-07.txt
	Pages           : 13
	Date            : 2011-07-05

   Various published proposals for use of the IPv6 flow label are
   incompatible with its original specification in RFC 3697.
   Furthermore, very little practical use is made of the flow label,
   partly due to some uncertainties about the correct interpretation of
   the specification.  This document discusses and motivates changes to
   the specification in order to clarify it, and to introduce some
   additional flexibility.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-flow-update-07.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-flow-update-07.txt

From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Tue Jul  5 06:49:41 2011
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Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 01:49:37 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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There were no comments (that the authors saw) during IETF Last Call.
This version fixes a few minor editorial points, and the AD's comments.

   Brian

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-6man-flow-update-07.txt
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2011 06:41:51 -0700
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
CC: shengjiang@huawei.com, brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com, shane@level3.net

A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-6man-flow-update-07.txt has been successfully submitted by Brian Carpenter and posted to the
IETF repository.

Filename:	 draft-ietf-6man-flow-update
Revision:	 07
Title:		 Rationale for update to the IPv6 flow label specification
Creation date:	 2011-07-05
WG ID:		 6man
Number of pages: 13

Abstract:
   Various published proposals for use of the IPv6 flow label are
   incompatible with its original specification in RFC 3697.
   Furthermore, very little practical use is made of the flow label,
   partly due to some uncertainties about the correct interpretation of
   the specification.  This document discusses and motivates changes to
   the specification in order to clarify it, and to introduce some
   additional flexibility.




The IETF Secretariat



From kerlyn2001@gmail.com  Tue Jul  5 09:38:19 2011
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Subject: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-lynn-6man-6lobac-00.txt
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--20cf303bf95ee445b104a7551b5b
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Greetings,

A new "IPv6 over foo" I-D has been posted at
draft-lynn-6man-6lobac-00<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lynn-6man-6lobac/>
.
This I-D specifies an IPv6 encapsulation for a constrained data link that
I'd describe as a wired alternative to 15.4 in commercial building
automation
applications.  The I-D provides some background material on MS/TP (the
access method) as well as the required IPv6 stuff.  The encapsulation and
header compression schemes are derived from (and compatible with) 6LoWPAN.

I hope to get a few minutes on the 6man agenda in QC to discuss the I-D and
where it belongs.  I have been working closely with the ASHRAE BACnet
standards committee (the owners of the MS/TP spec) and several industry
sponsors on this I-D and hope it can proceed as an individual submission.

Regards, -K-

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 6:17 PM
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-lynn-6man-6lobac-00.txt
To: kerlyn@ieee.org
Cc: kerlyn@ieee.org


A new version of I-D, draft-lynn-6man-6lobac-00.txt has been successfully
submitted by Kerry Lynn and posted to the IETF repository.

Filename:        draft-lynn-6man-6lobac
Revision:        00
Title:           Transmission of IPv6 over MS/TP Networks
Creation date:   2011-07-04
WG ID:           Individual Submission
Number of pages: 13

Abstract:
  MS/TP (Master-Slave/Token-Passing) is a contention-free access method
  for the TIA-485-A physical layer that is used extensively in building
  automation networks.  This document describes the frame format for
  transmission of IPv6 packets and the method of forming link-local and
  statelessly autoconfigured IPv6 addresses on MS/TP networks.




The IETF Secretariat

--20cf303bf95ee445b104a7551b5b
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Greetings,<div><br></div><div>A new &quot;IPv6 over foo&quot; I-D has been =
posted at=A0<a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lynn-6man-6lob=
ac/">draft-lynn-6man-6lobac-00</a>.</div><div>This I-D specifies an IPv6 en=
capsulation for a constrained data link that</div>
<div>I&#39;d describe as=A0a wired alternative to 15.4 in commercial buildi=
ng automation</div><div>applications. =A0The I-D provides some background m=
aterial on MS/TP (the</div><div>access method) as well as the required IPv6=
 stuff. =A0The encapsulation and</div>
<div>header compression schemes are derived from (and compatible with)=A06L=
oWPAN.</div><div><br></div><div>I hope to get a few minutes on the 6man age=
nda in QC to discuss the I-D and</div><div>where it belongs. =A0I have been=
 working closely with the ASHRAE BACnet</div>
<div>standards committee=A0(the owners of the MS/TP spec) and several indus=
try</div><div>sponsors on this I-D and hope it can proceed as an individual=
 submission.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards, -K-</div><div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">
---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: <b class=3D"gmail_senderna=
me"></b> <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">=
internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 6:17 P=
M<br>
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-lynn-6man-6lobac-00.txt<br>To: =
<a href=3D"mailto:kerlyn@ieee.org">kerlyn@ieee.org</a><br>Cc: <a href=3D"ma=
ilto:kerlyn@ieee.org">kerlyn@ieee.org</a><br><br><br>A new version of I-D, =
draft-lynn-6man-6lobac-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Kerry Lynn=
 and posted to the IETF repository.<br>

<br>
Filename: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0draft-lynn-6man-6lobac<br>
Revision: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A000<br>
Title: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Transmission of IPv6 over MS/TP Networks<br>
Creation date: =A0 2011-07-04<br>
WG ID: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Individual Submission<br>
Number of pages: 13<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
 =A0 MS/TP (Master-Slave/Token-Passing) is a contention-free access method<=
br>
 =A0 for the TIA-485-A physical layer that is used extensively in building<=
br>
 =A0 automation networks. =A0This document describes the frame format for<b=
r>
 =A0 transmission of IPv6 packets and the method of forming link-local and<=
br>
 =A0 statelessly autoconfigured IPv6 addresses on MS/TP networks.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<br>
</div><br></div>

--20cf303bf95ee445b104a7551b5b--

From joelja@bogus.com  Tue Jul  5 13:33:59 2011
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-gashinsky-v6nd-enhance-00
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I forgot to include 6man

On Jul 1, 2011, at 7:52 PM, Andrew Yourtchenko wrote:

> Joel,
>=20
> FWIW, a couple of observations about the "6.3. Routing Mitigation" =
based on my experiments and various discussions, and a few miscellanea.
>=20
> 6.2. Appropriate Subnet Sizing.
>=20
> Maybe worth to note here that the folks would still benefit of =
allocating the /64, and then using smaller part of it, if they want to =
do so. So later if they need to have more hosts in that segment, they =
would only renumber that segment. (also to "optimize the allocation for =
conservation of braincells" which I remember someone mentioned some =
time)

fwiw that's essentially what I did in practice, e.g. I assign p-to-p =
links as /64s and user them with much shorter. load balancer virtual =
ip's are all assigned out of the same /64 but are actually used as =
/128s.  use of non-default subnet size on the other hand runs afoul of =
SLAAC so it has it's limitations.

> Also for consistency with 6.1, might be worth noting that this =
approach would inhibit the use of RFC4862 altogether ?
>=20
> 6.3. Routing Mitigation.
>=20
> - the necessity to enable routing will depend on whether the host =
implements Strong ES or Weak ES multihoming model as per rfc1122 =
terminology - I tested on 2.6.32-24-generic and reaching the global =
address configured on the "lo" interface from ethernet side did not =
require enabling the forwarding.
>=20
> - one semi-related advantage of the routing approach is that it can =
and is used in operations to allow the routing-protocol based redundancy =
with anycast addresses for transactional services.
>=20
> - the overhead on the host will of course depend on the type of the =
routing protocol. Also, since it is effectively host->router =
communication, one can take an advantage of that. The RIPng seemed like =
a good candidate to me in this regard (to be run only on the first hop =
router).
> The prototype code is 205 lines of vanilla C, of which 113 lines are =
the RT_NETLINK boilerplate to retrieve the current address(es) assigned =
to loopback interface, such that the host config files were the only =
dependency.
>=20
> (IMHO this approach is effectively a 7.3, but at network layer at an =
expense of some addition to host. Arguably, http server code is also an =
addition, though :).
>=20
> - one other side effect of this approach is that if it is used in the =
NBMA-type ethernet deployment (cf: the RA thread), then the absence of =
the on-link global prefix takes care of the inter-host communication - =
it will happen via the default gateway.
>=20
>=20
> 7.1, item 5: Recommendations for Implementors.
>=20
> keeping the state here opens the hole from another end - if a router =
"remembers" the "past good" addresses, then a local attacker may easily =
exhaust the resources on the router by rapidly changing the source =
address and making a single ping, then moving on.

yeah I think what exposure a malicious local system might exploit is =
worth a thought expierment or two.

> 7.2. Queue Tuning.
>=20
> How does this interact with the other aspect of the behavior that is =
dictated by RFC4861 ?
>=20
> "While waiting for address resolution to complete, the sender MUST,
> for each neighbor, retain a small queue of packets waiting for
> address resolution to complete. "
>=20
> Merely rate-limiting the requests from the dataplane would result in =
inability for an implementation to comply with this "MUST", I think.

yeah

> Also, to me this section seems to contradict the 6.4:  the 7.2 says =
it's applicable if there is a single queue, while 6.4 says it is useful =
only if there is more than one queue - while 7.2 reads as the suggestion =
to implement the knobs for doing 6.4... If I miss something more subtle =
here, might be useful to have it more explicit (and as well to expand on =
the relationship between the two chapters).
>=20
> 7.3. NDP Protocol Gratuitous NA
>=20
> "Hosts MAY be configured to send unsolicited Neighbor =
advertisement..." - is it something that exists now somewhere in the OS =
or would this require additional code as well ? The implementations I =
know of, used ad-hoc appendages to send these NAs. Ergo, I think it is =
similar to section 6.3 except it uses the different name for the =
protocol ?

So NDP, as it exists today assumes that a gratuitious NA message kicks =
of a NDP cycle. regarding whether implementations do something along =
these links I'm pretty sure that host implmentations for vrrp6 pretty =
much do that when transitioning the shared address between instaces.

> I wonder if there is a room for "neighbor registration" approach =
similar to the one in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6lowpan-nd.
>=20
> 9.
>=20
> "... DOS exposure" is the ending of the sentence or there is something =
more ?
>=20
> s/Explicitely/Explicitly/
> s/maintin/maintain/
> s/amerlorate/ameliorate/
> s/isse/issue/
> s/excissivly/excessively/
> s/lowing/lowering/
> s/investigationg/investigating/
> s/maintaice/maintenance/
> s/recieving/receiving/
> s/correpsonding/corresponding/

thanks

> cheers,
> andrew
>=20
> On Thu, 30 Jun 2011, Joel Jaeggli wrote:
>=20
>> I would direct the two working groups' attention if I may to a =
recently posted draft:
>>=20
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gashinsky-v6nd-enhance-00
>>=20
>> the potential DOS exposure that ipv6 neighbor discovery poses to =
routers is generally understood at this  point, the document covers =
usable work arounds, and includes some rough proposals for addressing =
what the authors views as shortcomings in the neighbor disocvery =
process.
>>=20
>> some inspiration was drawn from:
>>=20
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nordmark-6man-impatient-nud-00
>>=20
>> thanks
>> joel
>>=20
>> A new version of I-D, draft-gashinsky-v6nd-enhance-00.txt has been =
successfully submitted by joel jaeggli and posted to the IETF =
repository.
>>=20
>> Filename:	 draft-gashinsky-v6nd-enhance
>> Revision:	 00
>> Title:		 Operational Neighbor Discovery Problems and =
Enhancements.
>> Creation date:	 2011-06-29
>> WG ID:		 Individual Submission
>> Number of pages: 15
>>=20
>> Abstract:
>> In IPv4, subnets are generally small, made just large enough to cover
>> the actual number of machines on the subnet.  In contrast, the
>> default IPv6 subnet size is a /64, a number so large it covers
>> trillions of addresses, the overwhelming number of which will be
>> unassigned.  Consequently, simplistic implementations of Neighbor
>> Discovery can be vulnerable to denial of service attacks whereby they
>> attempt to perform address resolution for large numbers of unassigned
>> addresses.  Such denial of attacks can be launched intentionally (by
>> an attacker), or result from legitimate operational tools that scan
>> networks for inventory and other purposes.  As a result of these
>> vulnerabilities, new devices may not be able to &quot;join&quot; a =
network, it
>> may be impossible to establish new IPv6 flows, and existing ipv6
>> transported flows may be interrupted.
>>=20
>> This document describes the problem in detail and suggests possible
>> implementation improvements as well as operational mitigation
>> techniques that can in some cases to protect against such attacks.
>> It also discusses possible modifications to the traditional [RFC4861]
>> neighbor discovery protocol itself.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> The IETF Secretariat
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>=20
>>=20
>=20

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


From sander@steffann.nl  Tue Jul  5 15:49:07 2011
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Subject: Re: subnet router anycast
From: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
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Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2011 00:49:05 +0200
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Hi,

> Does this apply to subnet *router* anycast, or just subnet anycast? =
The
> two are not quite the same, and the draft doesn't mention RFC4291.
>=20
> I'd agree wholeheartedly with deprecating them both! But this draft
> expired some months ago - what are its chances?

Just an observation: I have been playing with the new IPv6-capable =
firmware of the Thompson/Technicolor TG789 firmware. It does implement =
IPv6 subnet router anycast, and it will be deployed in the near future =
(firmware production release in a couple of weeks IIRC).

- Sander


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Subject: Re: subnet router anycast
From: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
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On Jul 5, 2011, at 15:49 , Sander Steffann wrote:
> 
> Just an observation: I have been playing with the new IPv6-capable firmware of the Thompson/Technicolor TG789 firmware. It does implement IPv6 subnet router anycast, and it will be deployed in the near future (firmware production release in a couple of weeks IIRC).

Apple's AirPort Extreme supports the subnet router anycast address on its advertising interfaces.  It wasn't hard at all to implement and debug.

My reading of RFC 2526, which this draft references, is that there is exactly one node requirement: don't assign unicast addresses to interfaces with the subnet anycast prefix.  I know we will never do that with SLAAC on the advertising interfaces, but I suspect that the DHCPv6 client on the soliciting interface will happily violate RFC 2526 if the IA_NA or IA_TA addresses have the subnet anycast prefix for one of its on-link prefixes.  I haven't checked, and I don't think the IPv6 Ready certification test does either, or I would have remembered failing it.

It would not be very hard at all to apply a patch to comply with the requirement in RFC 2526 to refuse those addresses.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, core os networking




From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com  Wed Jul  6 00:30:31 2011
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Le 06/07/2011 02:17, james woodyatt a �crit :
> On Jul 5, 2011, at 15:49 , Sander Steffann wrote:
>>
>> Just an observation: I have been playing with the new IPv6-capable
>>  firmware of the Thompson/Technicolor TG789 firmware. It does
>> implement IPv6 subnet router anycast, and it will be deployed in
>> the near future (firmware production release in a couple of weeks
>> IIRC).
>
> Apple's AirPort Extreme supports the subnet router anycast address on
> its advertising interfaces.  It wasn't hard at all to implement and
> debug.
>
> My reading of RFC 2526, which this draft references, is that there is
> exactly one node requirement: don't assign unicast addresses to
> interfaces with the subnet anycast prefix.

Hmm... this requirement is probably being violated by one implementation
of Home Agent of Mobile IPv6 - it needs to assign an anycast address
_and_ its unicast global address on a same interface, otherwise the
DHAAD part of Mobile IPv6 wouldn't work.

Also, the link-local _unicast_ address is an almost de facto mandate on
every Ethernet interface, on many implementations.  This also would
violate that either-or requirement on anycast-unicat.

Alex

> I know we will never do that with SLAAC on the advertising
> interfaces, but I suspect that the DHCPv6 client on the soliciting
> interface will happily violate RFC 2526 if the IA_NA or IA_TA
> addresses have the subnet anycast prefix for one of its on-link
> prefixes.  I haven't checked, and I don't think the IPv6 Ready
> certification test does either, or I would have remembered failing
> it.
>
> It would not be very hard at all to apply a patch to comply with the
>  requirement in RFC 2526 to refuse those addresses.
>
>
> -- james woodyatt<jhw@apple.com> member of technical staff, core os
> networking
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative
> Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
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From suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com  Thu Jul  7 12:12:37 2011
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From: Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com>
To: RJ Atkinson <rja.lists@gmail.com>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 15:11:30 -0400
Subject: RE: 6MAN WG Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-exthdr-03.txt>  
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Hi Ran,
  The text you proposed seems reasonable. I will make the change in the nex=
t rev.

Thanks
Suresh

________________________________________
From: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of RJ Atkinso=
n [rja.lists@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 10:00 AM
To: ipv6@ietf.org
Subject: Re: 6MAN WG Last Call: <draft-ietf-6man-exthdr-03.txt>

On 30th June 2011, Bob Hinden wrote:
> This message starts a two week 6MAN Working Group Last Call on advancing:
>
>       Title           : An uniform format for IPv6 extension headers
>       Author(s)       : Suresh Krishnan
>                          Erik Kline
>                          James Hoagland
>                          Manav Bhatia
>       Filename        : draft-ietf-6man-exthdr-03.txt
>       Pages           : 8
>       Date            : 2011-06-27
>
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-exthdr-03
>
>
> as a Proposed Standard.  Substantive comments and statements of support
> for advancing this document should be directed to the mailing list.
> Editorial suggestions can be sent to the authors.  This last call
> will end on 14 July 2011.

I support publishing this as a Proposed Standard.

This revision resolves my earlier concerns that it is
highly undesirable to define *any* new IPv6 Extension Headers
(since defining any new IPv6 Extension Header will break
multiple existing IPv6 deployments).

On 1st July 2011, David Malone wrote, in part:
> Fixing this could be a simple as changing the title and abstract,
> plus possibly adding something in Section 4 to actually encourage
> use of the uniform format.

I do not have any philosophical objections to the suggested
edit of the document Title and expansion of the Abstract.

Perhaps the lone sentence in Section 4 could be reworded
into RFC-2119 language.  Candidate replacement text might be:

        If any IPv6 Extension Headers are defined in future,
        keeping in mind the restrictions above in Section 3
        and also the restrictions specified in RFC-2460,
        they MUST use the consistent format defined in Figure 1.
        This enables future IPv6 implementations to skip over
        unknown IPv6 Extension Headers and continue to further
        process the IPv6 header chain.

Yours,

Ran

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This has some more details based on the mailing list discussion, and 
references draft-gashinsky-v6nd-enhance-00 for further motivation.

    Erik

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: New Version Notification for 
draft-nordmark-6man-impatient-nud-01.txt
Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2011 13:33:06 -0700
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org

A new version of I-D, draft-nordmark-6man-impatient-nud-01.txt has been 
successfully submitted by Erik Nordmark and posted to the IETF repository.

Filename:	 draft-nordmark-6man-impatient-nud
Revision:	 01
Title:		 Neighbor Unreachability Detection is too impatient
Creation date:	 2011-07-07
WG ID:		 Individual Submission
Number of pages: 7

Abstract:
    IPv6 Neighbor Discovery includes Neighbor Unreachability Detection.
    That function is very useful when a host has an alternative, for
    instance multiple default routers, since it allows the host to switch
    to the alternative in short time.  This time is 3 seconds after the
    node starts probing.  However, if there are no alternatives, this is
    far too impatient.  This document proposes an approach where an
    implementation can choose the timeout behavior to be different based
    on whether or not there are alternatives.

 



The IETF Secretariat

From wdec.ietf@gmail.com  Fri Jul  8 03:30:43 2011
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Subject: FW: draft-dec-6man-rs-access-harmful
From: Wojciech Dec <wdec.ietf@gmail.com>
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Feedback is welcome...

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.

	Title           : IPv6 Router Solicitation Driven Access Considered Harmful
	Author(s)       : Wojciech Dec
	Filename        : draft-dec-6man-rs-access-harmful-00.txt
	Pages           : 15
	Date            : 2011-06-20

   This document presents issues regarding the reliance of IPv6 Router
   Solicitation messages for creating or initializing router state
   necessary to enable IPv6 users&#39; connectivity, particularly in
   situations where such users have bridged ethernet connectivity with
   the router.  A number of alternative solution approaches are also
   presented and discussed.



A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-dec-6man-rs-access-harmful-00.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-dec-6man-rs-access-harmful-00.txt

From rathiguru@hotmail.com  Fri Jul  8 22:23:24 2011
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From: Thiruma valavan <rathiguru@hotmail.com>
To: <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Doubt in Router Advertisement Message
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 10:53:21 +0530
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Hi IETF Group=2C
While testing IPV6 Router Advertisement part=2C I noticed some behaviour th=
at if I changed router interface MTU value=2C it won't send Router Advertis=
ement message immediately instead of waiting to next interval time.

Is that normal behaviour=2C=20
Thanks & Regards=2C

Thirumavalavan PCalsoflabs India Pvt Ltd=2CBangaloreATLEN Group of CompanyM=
ob: +91 9790758035=20
 		 	   		  =

--_3721c64c-81d8-4979-9307-d24a1054d923_
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<html>
<head>
<style><!--
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px=3B
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 10pt=3B
font-family:Tahoma
}
--></style>
</head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>
<font face=3D"Verdana" style=3D"font-family: Tahoma=3B ">Hi IETF Group=2C<b=
r id=3D"FontBreak"></font><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Ver=
dana"><br></font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Verdan=
a">While testing IPV6 Router Advertisement part=2C I noticed some behaviour=
 that if I changed router interface MTU value=2C it won't send Router Adver=
tisement message immediately instead of waiting to next interval time.<br><=
/font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Verdana"><br></fo=
nt></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Verdana">Is that nor=
mal behaviour=2C&nbsp=3B</font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Verdana"><br></font><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Tahoma=
">Thanks &amp=3B Regards=2C</font><br><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=
=3D"Tahoma">
Thirumavalavan P</font><div style=3D"font-family: Tahoma=3B ">Calsoflabs In=
dia Pvt Ltd=2CBangalore</div><div style=3D"font-family: Tahoma=3B ">ATLEN G=
roup of Company</div><div style=3D"font-family: Tahoma=3B ">Mob: +91 979075=
8035 <br></div></div> 		 	   		  </div></body>
</html>=

--_3721c64c-81d8-4979-9307-d24a1054d923_--

From vishwas.ietf@gmail.com  Sat Jul  9 15:06:00 2011
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Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 15:05:47 -0700
From: "Vishwas Manral" <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>
To: "Thiruma valavan" <rathiguru@hotmail.com>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Doubt in Router Advertisement Message
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Hi Thiruma,

>From the specs it is clear that the MTU is optional. However if MTU sending=
 is enabled it should be sent on change too.

Sounds like a bug in the implementation to me.

Thanks,
Vishwas



Sent from my Palm Pre on AT&amp;T
On Jul 9, 2011 2:51 AM, Thiruma valavan &lt;rathiguru@hotmail.com&gt; wrote=
:=20


Hi IETF Group,
While testing IPV6 Router Advertisement part, I noticed some behaviour that=
 if I changed router interface MTU value, it won't send Router Advertisemen=
t message immediately instead of waiting to next interval time.

Is that normal behaviour,&nbsp;
Thanks &amp; Regards,

Thirumavalavan PCalsoflabs India Pvt Ltd,BangaloreATLEN Group of CompanyMob=
: +91 9790758035=20
 		 	   		 =20


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Hi Thiruma,<br><br>From the specs it is clear that the MTU is optional. How=
ever if MTU sending is enabled it should be sent on change too.<br><br>Soun=
ds like a bug in the implementation to me.<br><br>Thanks,<br>Vishwas<br><br=
><span style=3D"font-family:Prelude, Verdana, san-serif;"><br><br></span><s=
pan id=3D"signature"><div style=3D"font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-siz=
e: 12px;color: #999999;">Sent from my Palm Pre on AT&amp;T</div><br></span>=
<span style=3D"color:navy; font-family:Prelude, Verdana, san-serif; "><hr=
 align=3D"left" style=3D"width:75%">On Jul 9, 2011 2:51 AM, Thiruma valavan=
 &lt;rathiguru@hotmail.com&gt; wrote: <br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">
<font face=3D"Verdana" style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; ">Hi IETF Group,<br id=
=3D"FontBreak"></font><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Verdana=
"><br></font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Verdana">W=
hile testing IPV6 Router Advertisement part, I noticed some behaviour that=
 if I changed router interface MTU value, it won't send Router Advertisemen=
t message immediately instead of waiting to next interval time.<br></font><=
/div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Verdana"><br></font></di=
v><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Verdana">Is that normal beh=
aviour,&nbsp;</font></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Ver=
dana"><br></font><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Tahoma">Thanks &a=
mp; Regards,</font><br><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Tahoma">
Thirumavalavan P</font><div style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; ">Calsoflabs Indi=
a Pvt Ltd,Bangalore</div><div style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; ">ATLEN Group=
 of Company</div><div style=3D"font-family: Tahoma; ">Mob: +91 9790758035=
 <br></div></div> 		 	   		  </div>
</span>

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Subject: RE: Doubt in Router Advertisement Message
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Thanks vishwas.

Once again I will analyze those things(Router Advertisement - MTU option) a=
nd let you know.=20

Thanks in Advance=2C

Thirumavalavan PCalsoftlabs India Pvt Ltd=2C Bangalore.
ALTEN Group of Company.Mob: +91 9790758035=20


Date: Sat=2C 9 Jul 2011 15:05:47 -0700
From: vishwas.ietf@gmail.com
To: rathiguru@hotmail.com=3B ipv6@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Doubt in Router Advertisement Message

Hi Thiruma=2C

>From the specs it is clear that the MTU is optional. However if MTU sending=
 is enabled it should be sent on change too.

Sounds like a bug in the implementation to me.

Thanks=2C
Vishwas



Sent from my Palm Pre on AT&T
On Jul 9=2C 2011 2:51 AM=2C Thiruma valavan <rathiguru@hotmail.com> wrote:=
=20


Hi IETF Group=2C
While testing IPV6 Router Advertisement part=2C I noticed some behaviour th=
at if I changed router interface MTU value=2C it won't send Router Advertis=
ement message immediately instead of waiting to next interval time.

Is that normal behaviour=2C=20
Thanks & Regards=2C

Thirumavalavan PCalsoflabs India Pvt Ltd=2CBangaloreATLEN Group of CompanyM=
ob: +91 9790758035=20
 		 	   		 =20
 		 	   		  =

--_bca0ad01-5c4e-443a-81c8-c1e1c6bebe14_
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<html>
<head>
<style><!--
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px=3B
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 10pt=3B
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>
<font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Verdana" style=3D"font-size: 10pt=
=3B ">Thanks vishwas.<br></font><div><div><div style=3D"font-size: 10pt=3B =
"><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Verdana"><br></font></div><div><=
font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Verdana"><font class=3D"Apple-style=
-span" size=3D"2">Once again I will&nbsp=3Banalyze&nbsp=3Bthose things(Rout=
er Advertisement - MTU option) and let you know.&nbsp=3B</font><br><br></fo=
nt><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Tahoma" style=3D"font-size: 10p=
t=3B ">Thanks in Advance=2C</font><br><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=
=3D"Tahoma" style=3D"font-size: 10pt=3B ">
Thirumavalavan P</font></div><div style=3D"font-size: 10pt=3B "><font class=
=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Tahoma">Calsoftlabs India Pvt Ltd=2C Bangalor=
e.<br>ALTEN Group of Company.</font></div><div style=3D"font-size: 10pt=3B =
"><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Tahoma">Mob: +91 9790758035 </fo=
nt></div><div style=3D"font-size: 10pt=3B "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span=
" face=3D"Tahoma"><br></font><br><br><div style=3D"font-family: Tahoma=3B "=
><hr id=3D"stopSpelling">Date: Sat=2C 9 Jul 2011 15:05:47 -0700<br>From: vi=
shwas.ietf@gmail.com<br>To: rathiguru@hotmail.com=3B ipv6@ietf.org<br>Subje=
ct: Re: Doubt in Router Advertisement Message<br><br>Hi Thiruma=2C<br><br>F=
rom the specs it is clear that the MTU is optional. However if MTU sending =
is enabled it should be sent on change too.<br><br>Sounds like a bug in the=
 implementation to me.<br><br>Thanks=2C<br>Vishwas<br><br><span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Prelude=2C Verdana=2C san-serif"><br><br></span><span id=3D"ecxsi=
gnature"><div style=3D"font-family:arial=2C sans-serif=3Bfont-size:12px=3Bc=
olor:#999999">Sent from my Palm Pre on AT&amp=3BT</div><br></span><span sty=
le=3D"color:navy=3Bfont-family:Prelude=2C Verdana=2C san-serif"><hr align=
=3D"left" style=3D"width:75%">On Jul 9=2C 2011 2:51 AM=2C Thiruma valavan &=
lt=3Brathiguru@hotmail.com&gt=3B wrote: <br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">
<font face=3D"Verdana" style=3D"font-family:Tahoma">Hi IETF Group=2C<br id=
=3D"ecxFontBreak"></font><div><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" face=3D"V=
erdana"><br></font></div><div><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" face=3D"V=
erdana">While testing IPV6 Router Advertisement part=2C I noticed some beha=
viour that if I changed router interface MTU value=2C it won't send Router =
Advertisement message immediately instead of waiting to next interval time.=
<br></font></div><div><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" face=3D"Verdana">=
<br></font></div><div><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" face=3D"Verdana">=
Is that normal behaviour=2C&nbsp=3B</font></div><div><font class=3D"ecxAppl=
e-style-span" face=3D"Verdana"><br></font><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-spa=
n" face=3D"Tahoma">Thanks &amp=3B Regards=2C</font><br><font class=3D"ecxAp=
ple-style-span" face=3D"Tahoma">
Thirumavalavan P</font><div style=3D"font-family:Tahoma">Calsoflabs India P=
vt Ltd=2CBangalore</div><div style=3D"font-family:Tahoma">ATLEN Group of Co=
mpany</div><div style=3D"font-family:Tahoma">Mob: +91 9790758035 <br></div>=
</div> 		 	   		  </div>
</span></div></div></div></div> 		 	   		  </div></body>
</html>=

--_bca0ad01-5c4e-443a-81c8-c1e1c6bebe14_--

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Mon Jul 11 14:06:08 2011
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Maintenance Working Group of the=
 IETF.

	Title           : IPv6 Flow Label Specification
	Author(s)       : Shane Amante
                          Brian Carpenter
                          Sheng Jiang
                          Jarno Rajahalme
	Filename        : draft-ietf-6man-flow-3697bis-06.txt
	Pages           : 16
	Date            : 2011-07-11

   This document specifies the IPv6 Flow Label field and the minimum
   requirements for IPv6 nodes labeling flows, IPv6 nodes forwarding
   labeled packets, and flow state establishment methods.  Even when
   mentioned as examples of possible uses of the flow labeling, more
   detailed requirements for specific use cases are out of scope for
   this document.

   The usage of the Flow Label field enables efficient IPv6 flow
   classification based only on IPv6 main header fields in fixed
   positions.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-flow-3697bis-06.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-flow-3697bis-06.txt

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Mon Jul 11 14:36:21 2011
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Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-exthdr-04.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Maintenance Working Group of the=
 IETF.

	Title           : An uniform format for IPv6 extension headers
	Author(s)       : Suresh Krishnan
                          Apple Inc.
                          Erik Kline
                          James Hoagland
                          Manav Bhatia
	Filename        : draft-ietf-6man-exthdr-04.txt
	Pages           : 7
	Date            : 2011-07-11

   In IPv6, optional internet-layer information is encoded in separate
   headers that may be placed between the IPv6 header and the transport
   layer header.  There are a small number of such extension headers
   currently defined.  This document describes the issues that can arise
   when defining new extension headers and discusses the alternative
   extension mechanisms in IPv6.  It also provides a format for defining
   new IPv6 extension headers that would allow implementations to
   process past unknown extension headers.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
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This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
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From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Mon Jul 11 14:45:38 2011
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Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 09:45:33 +1200
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This version fixes most of the Last Call comments that came in before the cutoff.
However, there's a security review that came in too late for that, and several
IESG comments that will need attention, so there will probably be another version
in a couple of weeks.

   Brian

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-flow-3697bis-06.txt
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 14:06:07 -0700
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
CC: ipv6@ietf.org

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6
Maintenance Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : IPv6 Flow Label Specification
	Author(s)       : Shane Amante
                          Brian Carpenter
                          Sheng Jiang
                          Jarno Rajahalme
	Filename        : draft-ietf-6man-flow-3697bis-06.txt
	Pages           : 16
	Date            : 2011-07-11

   This document specifies the IPv6 Flow Label field and the minimum
   requirements for IPv6 nodes labeling flows, IPv6 nodes forwarding
   labeled packets, and flow state establishment methods.  Even when
   mentioned as examples of possible uses of the flow labeling, more
   detailed requirements for specific use cases are out of scope for
   this document.

   The usage of the Flow Label field enables efficient IPv6 flow
   classification based only on IPv6 main header fields in fixed
   positions.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-flow-3697bis-06.txt



From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Mon Jul 11 15:12:39 2011
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Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 10:12:34 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: draft-ietf-6man-flow-ecmp-04 as standards track instead of BCP?
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Does anyone object to switching this draft from BCP to Standards Track?
(See Pete Resnick's comments below.)

It is on this Thursday's IESG agenda.

   Brian Carpenter

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Pete Resnick's Discuss on draft-ietf-6man-flow-ecmp-04: (with DISCUSS)
...
> On 2011-07-12 03:09, Pete Resnick wrote:
>> Pete Resnick has entered the following ballot position for
>> draft-ietf-6man-flow-ecmp-04: Discuss

...
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> DISCUSS:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> Section 3 of this document (the main section) seems like protocol to me. (For example, "Inner packets MUST be encapsulated in an outer IPv6 packet whose source and destination addresses are those of the tunnel end points (TEPs)".) Therefore, I see no reason for this not to be on the Standards Track. It seems like it has interoperability impacts and gives normative implementation guidance.
>> 


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Occasionally the subject comes up: /64 (and SLAAC) is bad because it is
easy to DoS routers by getting to perform too much ND.

At least in theory this seems to be a valid complaint. A router can (and
should) carefully allocate resources for ND to avoid having ND interfere with
other parts of the routers functionality. 

But in the end, if the ND part of a router is overloaded and it needs to do
ND for a genuine neighbor, it may have to drop the packet.

So what I was thinking of, what if a router that is under attack would 
periodically multicast to the all-nodes multicast address a message saying
"help I'm under attack". Upon receiving such a message all nodes send a 
neighbor solication to the router. This populates the router's neighbor
cache with entries for all of it's neighbors. Thus ensuring that normal traffic
can flow uninterrupted.



From sander@steffann.nl  Tue Jul 12 02:22:19 2011
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Hi,

> So what I was thinking of, what if a router that is under attack would=20=

> periodically multicast to the all-nodes multicast address a message =
saying
> "help I'm under attack". Upon receiving such a message all nodes send =
a=20
> neighbor solication to the router. This populates the router's =
neighbor
> cache with entries for all of it's neighbors. Thus ensuring that =
normal traffic
> can flow uninterrupted.

I have thought about this too. I wouldn't even mind if this became =
(configurable) default behaviour. One thing though: all nodes should =
send neighbour solicitations for each IPv6 address they are listening =
on.

Thanks,
Sander


From pch-b2B3A6689@u-1.phicoh.com  Tue Jul 12 02:46:38 2011
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Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS 
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In your letter dated Tue, 12 Jul 2011 11:22:06 +0200 you wrote:
>I have thought about this too. I wouldn't even mind if this became =
>(configurable) default behaviour. One thing though: all nodes should =
>send neighbour solicitations for each IPv6 address they are listening =
>on.

I was thinking that it might be easiest to allocate some flags in the router
advertisement message. In that case, you could in theory also do it per prefix.
But that may complicate routers too much.

(When doing ND, routers can keep track of for which on-link prefixes they
have recently dropped packets. Also, routers can give priority to ND requests
that originate from whithin the router, so there should never be any reason
to request help for link-local addresses).



From kauer@biplane.com.au  Tue Jul 12 05:35:03 2011
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Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS
From: Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au>
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On Tue, 2011-07-12 at 11:22 +0200, Sander Steffann wrote:
> > So what I was thinking of, what if a router that is under attack would

The router would need to know that it was under attack. That could be
quite a complicated heuristic. It seems to me that it is simpler to
treat ND slot exhaustion as the problem, and not worry too much about
the cause.

I have no clue how sensible these ideas are:

- when slots get scarce, start favouring existing completed entries.
  Don't time them out as fast. That is, treat completed entries as more
  valuable than incomplete ones. Silly to toss out a probably-good entry
  in favour of a definitely-incomplete one.

- when slots get very scarce, start timing out incomplete entries
  faster, returning the slots to the pool. There will be a useful
  minimum time here...

- store source info with each slot. Have separate slot
  space for local (on-router) sources and remote (off-router) sources.
  This lets the local network keep working even when under attack from
  off-router.

- when slot space reaches a critical level, start ignoring requests from
  sources that have no completed entries. Yes, innocent new sources will
  suffer, but you are heading into crisis.

- when and as long as there are NO slots left:
   - don't delete completed entries at all while there are incomplete
     entries to delete

   - delete entries with sources with the fewest completed entries
     first. After them, delete the oldest entries first.

> > periodically multicast to the all-nodes multicast address a message say=
ing
> > "help I'm under attack". Upon receiving such a message all nodes send a=
=20
> > neighbor solication to the router.

This could be a reaction to a rapid decrease in available cache slots.
Do you need a special message? A ping to the all-nodes multicast address
should result in all nodes responding, and the responses would have all
the info in them that you need. You'd have to do that on each link,
though. And you'd have to do it *fast*. In fact, it seems to me that you
would be unlikely to be able to do it fast enough to make a difference -
by the time your nodes had responded, the attacker would have filled the
ND cache. Doing it preemptively would make for a very chatty link.

Regards, K.

--=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)

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From fweimer@bfk.de  Tue Jul 12 05:40:14 2011
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Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS
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* Philip Homburg:

> So what I was thinking of, what if a router that is under attack would
> periodically multicast to the all-nodes multicast address a message
> saying "help I'm under attack". Upon receiving such a message all
> nodes send a neighbor solication to the router. This populates the
> router's neighbor cache with entries for all of it's neighbors. Thus
> ensuring that normal traffic can flow uninterrupted.

Assuming that neighbor discovery is vulnerable, wouldn't the same issue
affect the triggered solications?  And isn't it a fine way to overload a
router on a large subnet?

--=20
Florian Weimer                <fweimer@bfk.de>
BFK edv-consulting GmbH       http://www.bfk.de/
Kriegsstra=DFe 100              tel: +49-721-96201-1
D-76133 Karlsruhe             fax: +49-721-96201-99

From brian@innovationslab.net  Tue Jul 12 05:50:24 2011
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Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 08:50:29 -0400
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Subject: Re: draft-ietf-6man-flow-ecmp-04 as standards track instead of BCP?
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I have no objections with moving it to Standards Track.

Regards,
Brian

On 7/11/11 6:12 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> Does anyone object to switching this draft from BCP to Standards Track?
> (See Pete Resnick's comments below.)
> 
> It is on this Thursday's IESG agenda.
> 
>    Brian Carpenter
> 
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: Pete Resnick's Discuss on draft-ietf-6man-flow-ecmp-04: (with DISCUSS)
> ...
>> On 2011-07-12 03:09, Pete Resnick wrote:
>>> Pete Resnick has entered the following ballot position for
>>> draft-ietf-6man-flow-ecmp-04: Discuss
> 
> ...
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> DISCUSS:
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Section 3 of this document (the main section) seems like protocol to me. (For example, "Inner packets MUST be encapsulated in an outer IPv6 packet whose source and destination addresses are those of the tunnel end points (TEPs)".) Therefore, I see no reason for this not to be on the Standards Track. It seems like it has interoperability impacts and gives normative implementation guidance.
>>>
> 
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To: Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au>
Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS 
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In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 12 Jul 2011 22:34:53 +1000 ." <1310474093.2382.154.camel@karl> 
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In your letter dated Tue, 12 Jul 2011 22:34:53 +1000 you wrote:
>The router would need to know that it was under attack. That could be
>quite a complicated heuristic. It seems to me that it is simpler to
>treat ND slot exhaustion as the problem, and not worry too much about
>the cause.

First, let me make clear that I was thinking about remote attacks. I think
that's the most serious problem. If you have malicious hosts directly
attached you have bigger problems, and you have to use either SeND or L2
filtering.

Assuming a remote attack, the only thing the attacker can do is cause
incomplete entries to be created. So the table consist of a collection of
normal (complete) entries for neighbors and a potentially large number of
incomplete entries.

Ultimately, the limit is not so much the number of incomplete entries in
the table, but the number of NS messages you can send per second.

So my definition of under attack would be that the router did not send a
NS because doing so would exceed the maximum number NS messages per second.

Beyond that, scale the table to hold that number of incomplete entries and
you are done.

>- when slots get scarce, start favouring existing completed entries.
>  Don't time them out as fast. That is, treat completed entries as more
>  valuable than incomplete ones. Silly to toss out a probably-good entry
>  in favour of a definitely-incomplete one.

This can be done all the time. If a completed entry is less then 1 minute
old, keep it.  If you run out of space, then there is a local attack
(or the number of neighbors exceeds what the router can handle)

>- when slots get very scarce, start timing out incomplete entries
>  faster, returning the slots to the pool. There will be a useful
>  minimum time here...

You only need incomplete entries for about 3 seconds (default settings).

>- store source info with each slot. Have separate slot
>  space for local (on-router) sources and remote (off-router) sources.
>  This lets the local network keep working even when under attack from
>  off-router.

Yes. Just one bit to mark an incomplete entry as local. But that should 
mostly effect the sending of NS messages.

>- when slot space reaches a critical level, start ignoring requests from
>  sources that have no completed entries. Yes, innocent new sources will
>  suffer, but you are heading into crisis.

That would be just the packets that are forwarded. 

>- when and as long as there are NO slots left:
>   - don't delete completed entries at all while there are incomplete
>     entries to delete

I would just partition the table: some number of entries for completed and
some number for incomplete. 

>   - delete entries with sources with the fewest completed entries
>     first. After them, delete the oldest entries first.

I think that for remote attack this doesn't make much sense. 

>Do you need a special message? A ping to the all-nodes multicast address
>should result in all nodes responding, and the responses would have all
>the info in them that you need. 

No, other nodes have to send a NS (or anything else that contains their 
link layer addresses).

>You'd have to do that on each link,
>though. 

If the bottleneck is not the table size, but number of NS messages you
can send per second, then it is per overloaded link.

>And you'd have to do it *fast*. In fact, it seems to me that you
>would be unlikely to be able to do it fast enough to make a difference -
>by the time your nodes had responded, the attacker would have filled the
>ND cache. Doing it preemptively would make for a very chatty link.

The attacker fills the cache with incomplete entries. NS requests can be used
to create complete entries. So you can always add them to the table.





From pch-b2B3A6689@u-1.phicoh.com  Tue Jul 12 06:19:11 2011
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Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS 
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In your letter dated Tue, 12 Jul 2011 12:40:12 +0000 you wrote:
>* Philip Homburg:
>> So what I was thinking of, what if a router that is under attack would
>> periodically multicast to the all-nodes multicast address a message
>> saying "help I'm under attack". Upon receiving such a message all
>> nodes send a neighbor solication to the router. This populates the
>> router's neighbor cache with entries for all of it's neighbors. Thus
>> ensuring that normal traffic can flow uninterrupted.
>
>Assuming that neighbor discovery is vulnerable, wouldn't the same issue
>affect the triggered solications?  And isn't it a fine way to overload a
>router on a large subnet?

One, I was thinking about a remote attack. So neighbors are trusted.

Two, a NS doesn't require the router to maintain any state. The router
just stores the IPv6 address and the MAC in the table and sends an NA.

As long as the router is properly sized for the number of neighbors, it
should be able to store it.

I'd say that a router has to be able to handle one NS per address per
neighbor every 30 seconds anyhow.

If the router can do that, then sending one request for help
every minute should do the trick.



From fweimer@bfk.de  Tue Jul 12 06:22:34 2011
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Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS
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* Philip Homburg:

> Two, a NS doesn't require the router to maintain any state. The router
> just stores the IPv6 address and the MAC in the table and sends an NA.

Huh?  If this isn't state, then what is it?

--=20
Florian Weimer                <fweimer@bfk.de>
BFK edv-consulting GmbH       http://www.bfk.de/
Kriegsstra=DFe 100              tel: +49-721-96201-1
D-76133 Karlsruhe             fax: +49-721-96201-99

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In your letter dated Tue, 12 Jul 2011 13:22:32 +0000 you wrote:
>* Philip Homburg:
>> Two, a NS doesn't require the router to maintain any state. The router
>> just stores the IPv6 address and the MAC in the table and sends an NA.
>
>Huh?  If this isn't state, then what is it?

It is state, but it is not required :-)

Updating the table is optional. In this case it is desired. But there is 
no reason to expect that the situation will get worse. Unless the router was
too small to begin with.




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Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS
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* Philip Homburg:

> First, let me make clear that I was thinking about remote attacks.

How would a remote attack work?

> I think that's the most serious problem. If you have malicious hosts
> directly attached you have bigger problems, and you have to use either
> SeND or L2 filtering.

On its own, neither SeND nor L2 filtering prevent any attacks on
neighbor discovery.  You need some sort of layering violation to tie
endpoints to specific addresses, and nothing working exclusively on
layer 2 or the IP layer can achieve that.  Once you can make that
connection, you can also limit the amount of processing power and state
per identified endpoint.  But without that, you have zero chance against
a local attacker.

--=20
Florian Weimer                <fweimer@bfk.de>
BFK edv-consulting GmbH       http://www.bfk.de/
Kriegsstra=DFe 100              tel: +49-721-96201-1
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From joelja@bogus.com  Tue Jul 12 06:46:21 2011
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we had a couple of suggestions.

http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gashinsky-v6nd-enhance-00.txt

On Jul 12, 2011, at 1:48 AM, Philip Homburg wrote:

> Occasionally the subject comes up: /64 (and SLAAC) is bad because it =
is
> easy to DoS routers by getting to perform too much ND.
>=20
> At least in theory this seems to be a valid complaint. A router can =
(and
> should) carefully allocate resources for ND to avoid having ND =
interfere with
> other parts of the routers functionality.=20
>=20
> But in the end, if the ND part of a router is overloaded and it needs =
to do
> ND for a genuine neighbor, it may have to drop the packet.
>=20
> So what I was thinking of, what if a router that is under attack would=20=

> periodically multicast to the all-nodes multicast address a message =
saying
> "help I'm under attack". Upon receiving such a message all nodes send =
a=20
> neighbor solication to the router. This populates the router's =
neighbor
> cache with entries for all of it's neighbors. Thus ensuring that =
normal traffic
> can flow uninterrupted.
>=20
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20


From pch-b2B3A6689@u-1.phicoh.com  Tue Jul 12 06:56:36 2011
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To: Florian Weimer <fweimer@bfk.de>
Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS 
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In your letter dated Tue, 12 Jul 2011 13:31:23 +0000 you wrote:
>* Philip Homburg:
>
>> First, let me make clear that I was thinking about remote attacks.
>
>How would a remote attack work?

You send a stream of packets directed to a particular /64 but you make sure
that each packet has a different destination address. 

The router that attaches to the /64 has perform ND for each packet. Assuming
that those addresses are not in use, it takes 3 seconds for the ND to time out.

So the router will have to maintain a huge amount of state. And, because the
NS messages are multicast, you have to rate limit them.

>> I think that's the most serious problem. If you have malicious hosts
>> directly attached you have bigger problems, and you have to use either
>> SeND or L2 filtering.
>
>On its own, neither SeND nor L2 filtering prevent any attacks on
>neighbor discovery.  You need some sort of layering violation to tie
>endpoints to specific addresses, and nothing working exclusively on
>layer 2 or the IP layer can achieve that.  Once you can make that
>connection, you can also limit the amount of processing power and state
>per identified endpoint.  But without that, you have zero chance against
>a local attacker.

For fixed ethernet (wireless is more tricky) a switch could limit the number
of MAC addresses per port in time. If you then limit the number of IPv6
address per MAC (that would require a layer violation) then can prevent
hosts from executing a local attack.



From pch-b2B3A6689@u-1.phicoh.com  Tue Jul 12 07:04:41 2011
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In your letter dated Tue, 12 Jul 2011 06:45:59 -0700 you wrote:
>we had a couple of suggestions.
>
>http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gashinsky-v6nd-enhance-00.txt

Yes, but I prefer something triggered by a router then just requiring
host to do something occasionally on their own.



From joelja@bogus.com  Tue Jul 12 08:17:39 2011
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On Jul 12, 2011, at 7:04 AM, Philip Homburg wrote:

> In your letter dated Tue, 12 Jul 2011 06:45:59 -0700 you wrote:
>> we had a couple of suggestions.
>>=20
>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gashinsky-v6nd-enhance-00.txt
>=20
> Yes, but I prefer something triggered by a router then just requiring
> host to do something occasionally on their own.

The problem in my opinion is not that the router isn't sending enough =
messages. It's sending too many for it's own purposes.

keeping existing known hosts in the cache and learning new ones in the =
face of resource exhaustion is the challenge.

>=20


From pch-b2B3A6689@u-1.phicoh.com  Tue Jul 12 08:40:42 2011
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In your letter dated Tue, 12 Jul 2011 08:17:31 -0700 you wrote:
>The problem in my opinion is not that the router isn't sending enough =
>messages. It's sending too many for it's own purposes.
>
>keeping existing known hosts in the cache and learning new ones in the =
>face of resource exhaustion is the challenge.

In theory, when the router is in distress, it could just limit itself to
sending out the distress signal and waiting for the neighbors to respond
with NS messages.



From bob.hinden@gmail.com  Tue Jul 12 09:05:23 2011
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You can find the current agenda at:

  http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/agenda/6man.html

I think we were able to accommodate the requests we received.

Bob


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"><br></div>&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
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From jared@puck.nether.net  Tue Jul 12 09:09:12 2011
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On Jul 12, 2011, at 10:04 AM, Philip Homburg wrote:

> In your letter dated Tue, 12 Jul 2011 06:45:59 -0700 you wrote:
>> we had a couple of suggestions.
>>=20
>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gashinsky-v6nd-enhance-00.txt
>=20
> Yes, but I prefer something triggered by a router then just requiring
> host to do something occasionally on their own.

You can't have two-party communication have only one part (the router) =
perform all the actions.

Is there a specific part of the above draft that you think should be =
changed?  In what manner?

I happen to think that it's not desirable to have any network element =
under attack, but the ideas in the draft seem to be well thought out, =
but perhaps not clearly stated enough for your needs?  (and with the =
least amount of protocol changes necessary, infact i believe only one, =
the rest could be seen as implementation details that would result in a =
lab failure and failure of RFP with noncompliant vendors).

- Jared=

From pch-b2B3A6689@u-1.phicoh.com  Tue Jul 12 09:39:50 2011
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To: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS 
From: Philip Homburg <pch-6man@u-1.phicoh.com>
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In your letter dated Tue, 12 Jul 2011 12:09:03 -0400 you wrote:
>You can't have two-party communication have only one part (the router) =
>perform all the actions.

So, in my proposal, the router sends out a request for help. And all of its
neighbors respond with a Neighbor Solicitation.

>Is there a specific part of the above draft that you think should be =
>changed?  In what manner?

Well, add my proposal :-) Formally request a change to the Neighbor Discovery 
RFC that allows this to happen.

>I happen to think that it's not desirable to have any network element =
>under attack, but the ideas in the draft seem to be well thought out, =
>but perhaps not clearly stated enough for your needs?  (and with the =
>least amount of protocol changes necessary, infact i believe only one, =
>the rest could be seen as implementation details that would result in a =
>lab failure and failure of RFP with noncompliant vendors).

I think they are certainly not stated clearly enough. But also don't think
they go far enough. As far as I can tell, the draft does not contain a protocol
that will always work.

It contains a number of suggestions that to some extent mitigate the problem.

For example,

"Hosts MAY be configured to send unsolicited Neighbor advertisement
"at a rate set at the discretion of the operators.  The rate SHOULD
"be appropriate to the sizing of ND cache parameters and the host
"count on the subnet.  An unsolicited NA rate parameter MUST NOT be
"enabled by default.

What does that mean? Each time I connect my laptop to a network, an operator
shows up from behind the bushes and configures the right parameters?

What if it doesn't happen? Then my laptop is not protected a case of a DoS on
the router?

IMHO, what is needed is to write a document that lists changes and additions
relative to the neighbor discovery rfc, such that by default, routers and
hosts can be protected against this attack.



From joelja@bogus.com  Tue Jul 12 09:56:41 2011
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On Jul 12, 2011, at 9:39 AM, Philip Homburg wrote:

> In your letter dated Tue, 12 Jul 2011 12:09:03 -0400 you wrote:
>> You can't have two-party communication have only one part (the =
router) =3D
>> perform all the actions.
>=20
> So, in my proposal, the router sends out a request for help. And all =
of its
> neighbors respond with a Neighbor Solicitation.
>=20
>> Is there a specific part of the above draft that you think should be =
=3D
>> changed?  In what manner?
>=20
> Well, add my proposal :-) Formally request a change to the Neighbor =
Discovery=20
> RFC that allows this to happen.
>=20
>> I happen to think that it's not desirable to have any network element =
=3D
>> under attack, but the ideas in the draft seem to be well thought out, =
=3D
>> but perhaps not clearly stated enough for your needs?  (and with the =
=3D
>> least amount of protocol changes necessary, infact i believe only =
one, =3D
>> the rest could be seen as implementation details that would result in =
a =3D
>> lab failure and failure of RFP with noncompliant vendors).
>=20
> I think they are certainly not stated clearly enough. But also don't =
think
> they go far enough. As far as I can tell, the draft does not contain a =
protocol
> that will always work.
>=20
> It contains a number of suggestions that to some extent mitigate the =
problem.
>=20
> For example,
>=20
> "Hosts MAY be configured to send unsolicited Neighbor advertisement
> "at a rate set at the discretion of the operators.  The rate SHOULD
> "be appropriate to the sizing of ND cache parameters and the host
> "count on the subnet.  An unsolicited NA rate parameter MUST NOT be
> "enabled by default.
>=20
> What does that mean? Each time I connect my laptop to a network, an =
operator
> shows up from behind the bushes and configures the right parameters?

first off, beaconing is clearly not appropriate for all environments. so =
I wouldn't expect a laptop to do it at all unless you were  explicit  in =
your desire to do so. the goal was also to make the mechanism backward =
compatible with existing ND behavior, where such a message unsolicited =
would be grounds for kicking off a neighbor discovery process.

> What if it doesn't happen? Then my laptop is not protected a case of a =
DoS on
> the router?

it's the router's ndp cache not the laptop that's the target of the dos.

> IMHO, what is needed is to write a document that lists changes and =
additions
> relative to the neighbor discovery rfc, such that by default, routers =
and
> hosts can be protected against this attack.

7.3 and 7.4 are in fact proposals for changes to 4861. They could be =
split into a separate document. goal was to get something out so that we =
could shoot holes in it.

implementation advice in 7.1 7.2 are things that can be done without =
making changes to the way that NDP works today.

>=20


From pch-b2B3A6689@u-1.phicoh.com  Tue Jul 12 10:31:49 2011
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Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS 
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In your letter dated Tue, 12 Jul 2011 09:56:33 -0700 you wrote:
>On Jul 12, 2011, at 9:39 AM, Philip Homburg wrote:
>> What does that mean? Each time I connect my laptop to a network, an =
>operator
>> shows up from behind the bushes and configures the right parameters?
>
>first off, beaconing is clearly not appropriate for all environments. so =
>I wouldn't expect a laptop to do it at all unless you were  explicit  in =
>your desire to do so. the goal was also to make the mechanism backward =
>compatible with existing ND behavior, where such a message unsolicited =
>would be grounds for kicking off a neighbor discovery process.

>From a presentation perspective, I think it would be better if you start with
the general solution before moving to more specialized ones.

(I'll ignore this part for now)

>it's the router's ndp cache not the laptop that's the target of the dos.

I know. But it is vital that my laptop's MAC gets into the router's
neighbor cache. So I assumed that this was done using beaconing.

>> IMHO, what is needed is to write a document that lists changes and =
>additions
>> relative to the neighbor discovery rfc, such that by default, routers =
>and
>> hosts can be protected against this attack.
>
>7.3 and 7.4 are in fact proposals for changes to 4861. They could be =
>split into a separate document. goal was to get something out so that we =
>could shoot holes in it.

Moving it to separate document is one thing. Moving it to its own section
and using more formal language wouldn't hurt. In particular try to 
make clear what you want to add to what sections of RFC-4861.

Now to Section 7.4. Are you seriously suggesting that on a large network,
every host when it boots sends a multicast to the all-routers address? 
You have 6000 hosts that wake up after a power failure and they just randomly
multicast to the all-routers address?

And then what? How does this stay in all of the routers' neighbor caches
for ever? Except that hosts can use privacy address, so more and more
addresses have to become locked in the routers' caches.

What if a router reboots?

>implementation advice in 7.1 7.2 are things that can be done without =
>making changes to the way that NDP works today.

Even then, if doing things in the right order is critical, that should be
considered part of the protocol. Even if the bits on the wire remain the
same.



From jared@puck.nether.net  Tue Jul 12 10:50:23 2011
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Keeping the scope on this part only...


On Jul 12, 2011, at 1:31 PM, Philip Homburg wrote:

> You have 6000 hosts that wake up after a power failure and they just =
randomly
> multicast to the all-routers address?

I think this is just an example, it's also IMHO a test that means you =
read the draft (or at least that part).

I think this needs to be refined, hence the feedback process via the =
community here.  I think sending to all-routers (or all-hosts) is =
generally an unwelcome event, but it is a way to have the host =
communicate with something that is setting the "i'm a router" bit.

- Jared=

From dougb@dougbarton.us  Tue Jul 12 11:39:18 2011
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On 07/12/2011 01:48, Philip Homburg wrote:
> So what I was thinking of, what if a router that is under attack would 
> periodically multicast to the all-nodes multicast address a message saying
> "help I'm under attack". Upon receiving such a message all nodes send a 
> neighbor solication to the router. This populates the router's neighbor
> cache with entries for all of it's neighbors. Thus ensuring that normal traffic
> can flow uninterrupted.

I like this idea, and would like to suggest that we name it the HHIBR
packet.


Doug (Help, help! I'm being repressed!)

-- 

	Nothin' ever doesn't change, but nothin' changes much.
			-- OK Go

	Breadth of IT experience, and depth of knowledge in the DNS.
	Yours for the right price.  :)  http://SupersetSolutions.com/


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Hi Doug,

> I like this idea, and would like to suggest that we name it the HHIBR
> packet.
> 
> Doug (Help, help! I'm being repressed!)

Well, this is all about the violence inherent in the system! ;-)
Sander


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Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS
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On Jul 12, 2011, at 4:48 AM, Philip Homburg wrote:

> Occasionally the subject comes up: /64 (and SLAAC) is bad because it is
> easy to DoS routers by getting to perform too much ND.

I suppose the same might be true of ARP. Has it been observed in the wild?

From huitema@microsoft.com  Tue Jul 12 13:52:12 2011
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From: Christian Huitema <huitema@microsoft.com>
To: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>, Philip Homburg <pch-6man@u-1.phicoh.com>
Subject: RE: /64 ND DoS
Thread-Topic: /64 ND DoS
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> I suppose the same might be true of ARP. Has it been observed in the wild=
?

Suppose a simple attack of:

	For each address A in subnet,
		Compose packet with source=3Dlocal and dest=3DA
		Send packet to router

In a typical IPv4 subnet, the loop will run 255 times. In a very large one,=
 a few thousand times. In an IPv6 subnet, the loop will run 2^64 times, and=
 the effect on the neighbor cache on the router could be interesting.

On the other hand, there are many ways for a local host to DOS a local rout=
er. I am not sure that this specific one is particularly practical, or worr=
isome.

-- Christian Huitema

=20


From joelja@bogus.com  Tue Jul 12 13:58:43 2011
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On Jul 12, 2011, at 1:39 PM, Fred Baker wrote:

> 
> On Jul 12, 2011, at 4:48 AM, Philip Homburg wrote:
> 
>> Occasionally the subject comes up: /64 (and SLAAC) is bad because it is
>> easy to DoS routers by getting to perform too much ND.
> 
> I suppose the same might be true of ARP. Has it been observed in the wild?

if you have a big enough subnet yes it is...

on the scale of a /19 the volume of broadcast traffic begins to annoy imho.

> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
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> 


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Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS 
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In your letter dated Tue, 12 Jul 2011 20:52:11 +0000 you wrote:
>On the other hand, there are many ways for a local host to DOS a local rout=
>er. I am not sure that this specific one is particularly practical, or worr=
>isome.

I guess I should have been way more explicit that I was thinking about the
remote attack.



From arturo.servin@gmail.com  Tue Jul 12 15:32:19 2011
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Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS
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From: Arturo Servin <arturo.servin@gmail.com>
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	IMHO I think this would be a vector for other attacks in ND.

	You may solve a remote attack but you are opening the door to =
local attacks, and a big ones I think.

Regards,
.as

On 12 Jul 2011, at 04:48, Philip Homburg wrote:

> So what I was thinking of, what if a router that is under attack would=20=

> periodically multicast to the all-nodes multicast address a message =
saying
> "help I'm under attack". Upon receiving such a message all nodes send =
a=20
> neighbor solication to the router. This populates the router's =
neighbor
> cache with entries for all of it's neighbors. Thus ensuring that =
normal traffic
> can flow uninterrupted.


From v6ops@globis.net  Tue Jul 12 16:47:43 2011
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From: Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net>
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To: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>, ipv6@ietf.org
Subject: [ipv6] Re: /64 ND DoS 
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>
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 13:50:16 -0400
> From: Jared Mauch<jared@puck.nether.net>
> To: Philip Homburg<pch-6man@u-1.phicoh.com>
> Cc:ipv6@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS
> Message-ID:<C9769852-FFD4-415A-930D-F149DC30F698@puck.nether.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I think this needs to be refined, hence the feedback process via the community here.  I think sending to all-routers (or all-hosts) is generally an unwelcome event, but it is a way to have the host communicate with something that is setting the "i'm a router" bit.
>
> - Jared
>    
It seems to me that the root cause of the problem is the size of the 
(default) /64 prefix defined for SLAAC compared to the capabilities of 
current computers / routers to provide sufficient slots/ resources for 
ND, especially when under remote attack.

One mitigation measure is suggested in section 6.2. Appropriate Subnet 
Sizing.

Here's a brute-force "what if" scenario for your consideration / discussion.

Today SLAAC addresses (RFC4862) are built on EUI-64 addresses, which in 
turn are derived from EUI-48, with some defined padding.

But EUI-48 itself has a not-very-well-published sub-structure of a 
"manufacturer's IEEE-assigned company_id" and a "manufacturer-selected 
extension identifier"

What if SLAAC was (temporarily) redefined to build EUI-64 identifiers 
with the manufacturer's IEEE-assigned company_id set to a single well 
known value? i.e. EUI-64 was derived from the "manufacturer-selected 
extension identifier" only.

That would effectively mean there'd be 2^24 different possible interface 
identifiers per prefix.

Are 2^24 interface identifiers small enough that every implementation 
could simply provide enough resources (for ND) to cope with all 
addresses being in play simultaneously?

2^24 is approx 17e6 table entries as a maximum, which may not be 
excessive for most modern devices, even most embedded ones. Whereas 2^64 
has already been shown to be excessive via the ND vulnerability.

Would 2^24 interface identifiers be large enough to ensure that SLAAC 
can still produce enough node identifiers whilst avoiding producing 
excessive collisions in Duplicate Address Detection (DAD)?
[bearing in mind anyway the limited variation in the first 24 bits of 
EUI-48 in practice]

Or can SLAAC and DAD be amended to 'guess and test' a new interface 
identifier automatically on detection of a duplicate address [like 
Appletalk node ID acquisition on Extended Networks]?

Would 2^24 interface identifiers be large enough that RFC 4941 (privacy 
extension) addresses are still reasonably useful?
[again bearing in mind the limited variation in the first 24 bits of 
EUI-48 in practice]

IMVHO this might be a useful compromise to investigate further.

regards,
RayH



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From: Christian Huitema <huitema@microsoft.com>
To: Philip Homburg <pch-6man@u-1.phicoh.com>
Subject: RE: /64 ND DoS 
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>  From: pch-b2B3A6689@u-1.phicoh.com [mailto:pch-b2B3A6689@u-1.phicoh.com]=
 On Behalf Of Philip Homburg
>  In your letter dated Tue, 12 Jul 2011 20:52:11 +0000 you wrote:
>> On the other hand, there are many ways for a local host to DOS a local=20
> >router. I am not sure that this specific one is particularly=20
>> practical, or worrisome.
>
> I guess I should have been way more explicit that I was thinking about th=
e remote attack.

Then I am really not worried. This kind of attack is trivially mitigated by=
 any stateful firewall on the path. In addition to all other mitigations th=
at were listed on this thread.

-- Christian Huitema






From swmike@swm.pp.se  Tue Jul 12 22:29:03 2011
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From: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
To: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS
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On Tue, 12 Jul 2011, Fred Baker wrote:

> I suppose the same might be true of ARP. Has it been observed in the wild?

Yes. At Interop they had this exact problem because they had huge subnets 
(/16 or something, I don't know exactly, they had a /8 so they could 
"afford" it), and they had to make them smaller.

I've seen it at other places as well, in the IPv4 Internet it doesn't even 
need to be ddos, it only needs to be the "normal" scanning traffic that 
the botnets do.

This is a REAL problem already, has been forever, and I imagine if I take 
most IPv6 router platforms today and give it 10kpps to random destinations 
to its attached /64 (10kpps of small packets is 5 megabit/s) it'll stop 
working normally.

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se

From fweimer@bfk.de  Wed Jul 13 00:33:11 2011
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From: Florian Weimer <fweimer@bfk.de>
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Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS
References: <m1QgYeD-0001i9C@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <6ABB2F79-BE30-416B-8A6E-5F0389A37D2F@cisco.com>
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* Fred Baker:

> On Jul 12, 2011, at 4:48 AM, Philip Homburg wrote:
>
>> Occasionally the subject comes up: /64 (and SLAAC) is bad because it is
>> easy to DoS routers by getting to perform too much ND.
>
> I suppose the same might be true of ARP. Has it been observed in the
> wild?

Yes, for the remote case.  Sequential scanning used to trigger it.  I
suspect that router capacities for ARP processing have since increased.

--=20
Florian Weimer                <fweimer@bfk.de>
BFK edv-consulting GmbH       http://www.bfk.de/
Kriegsstra=DFe 100              tel: +49-721-96201-1
D-76133 Karlsruhe             fax: +49-721-96201-99

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From: Florian Weimer <fweimer@bfk.de>
To: Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net>
Subject: Re: [ipv6] Re: /64 ND DoS
References: <4E1CDD14.7020702@globis.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 07:39:08 +0000
In-Reply-To: <4E1CDD14.7020702@globis.net> (Ray Hunter's message of "Wed, 13 Jul 2011 01:47:32 +0200")
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* Ray Hunter:

> Are 2^24 interface identifiers small enough that every implementation
> could simply provide enough resources (for ND) to cope with all
> addresses being in play simultaneously?

You'd need per-interface and per-VLAN tables.  I don't think that's
feasible.

--=20
Florian Weimer                <fweimer@bfk.de>
BFK edv-consulting GmbH       http://www.bfk.de/
Kriegsstra=DFe 100              tel: +49-721-96201-1
D-76133 Karlsruhe             fax: +49-721-96201-99

From pch-b2B3A6689@u-1.phicoh.com  Wed Jul 13 01:00:22 2011
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To: Christian Huitema <huitema@microsoft.com>
Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS 
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In your letter dated Tue, 12 Jul 2011 23:56:38 +0000 you wrote:
>Then I am really not worried. This kind of attack is trivially mitigated by=
> any stateful firewall on the path. 

If a stateful firewall is mandatory for the operation of IPv6 then it
should be there in the specs. Last time I looked, there was no standards
track RFC that made stateful firewall mandatory. I could be wrong though.

I'm not aware of any system today that in the presence of just SLAAC can
figure out where the stateful firewall is hiding in the network and how to
get it to open the port you need automatically (i.e. whenever a host allocate
a passive socket).

If you want to go that route, then IMHO, there is a huge amount of work to be 
done. Certainly to get it to work transparently for every possible protocol
that runs on top of IPv6.

Otherwise, it may be more productive to see a stateful firewall as an optional
extra and fix the protocols to be safe even in the absence of such a device.

From v6ops@globis.net  Wed Jul 13 01:06:21 2011
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Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 10:06:12 +0200
From: Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net>
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To: Florian Weimer <fweimer@bfk.de>
Subject: Re: [ipv6] Re: /64 ND DoS
References: <4E1CDD14.7020702@globis.net> <82wrfmocir.fsf@mid.bfk.de>
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Florian Weimer wrote:
> * Ray Hunter:
>
>    
>> Are 2^24 interface identifiers small enough that every implementation
>> could simply provide enough resources (for ND) to cope with all
>> addresses being in play simultaneously?
>>      
>
> You'd need per-interface and per-VLAN tables.  I don't think that's
> feasible.
>
>    
So where's the limit for ND and prefix length on today's implementations 
and platforms?

What if SLAAC was limited to using 20 bits or even just 16 bits of MAC 
BIA information or even in extremis dare I say 12 bits?

That would mean taking one or even two steps closer to Appletalk's node 
ID auto configuration mechanism. [implying higher chance of collisions 
and that DAD would almost certainly have to be adjusted to allow 
generation of random node IDs, and then testing for uniqueness on 
interface status transition. ].

IMHO There's no reason why this (temporary) limit on the amount of MAC 
BIA information used for SLAAC couldn't change over time as the power of 
platforms increases, and that this limit could also be dynamically 
advertised via RA as a per prefix option.

Or are you saying that a brute force solution (a la ARP) is simply a no go?

regards,
RayH

--------------040803000107020107090107
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<head>
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<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Florian Weimer wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:82wrfmocir.fsf@mid.bfk.de" type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">* Ray Hunter:

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Are 2^24 interface identifiers small enough that every implementation
could simply provide enough resources (for ND) to cope with all
addresses being in play simultaneously?
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
You'd need per-interface and per-VLAN tables.  I don't think that's
feasible.

  </pre>
</blockquote>
So where's the limit for ND and prefix length on today's
implementations and platforms?<br>
<br>
What if SLAAC was limited to using 20 bits or even just 16 bits of MAC
BIA information or even in extremis dare I say 12 bits?<br>
<br>
That would mean taking one or even two steps closer to Appletalk's node
ID auto configuration mechanism. [implying higher chance of collisions
and that DAD would almost certainly have to be adjusted to allow
generation of random node IDs, and then testing for uniqueness on
interface status transition. ].<br>
<br>
IMHO There's no reason why this (temporary) limit on the amount of MAC
BIA information used for SLAAC couldn't change over time as the power
of platforms increases, and that this limit could also be dynamically
advertised via RA as a per prefix option.<br>
<br>
Or are you saying that a brute force solution (a la ARP) is simply a no
go?<br>
<br>
regards,<br>
RayH<br>
</body>
</html>

--------------040803000107020107090107--

From swmike@swm.pp.se  Wed Jul 13 01:08:48 2011
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From: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
To: Christian Huitema <huitema@microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: /64 ND DoS 
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On Tue, 12 Jul 2011, Christian Huitema wrote:

> Then I am really not worried. This kind of attack is trivially mitigated 
> by any stateful firewall on the path. In addition to all other 
> mitigations that were listed on this thread.

Think as an ISP. We do not stateful firewall our customers, and we might 
be forced to have requipment in the customer /64, at least initially. This 
is a real problem, as this device will in some cases be a L3 switch with 
quite limited CPU and FIB table size.

I definitely prefer to have only link-local between me and a CPE and just 
route the /56 to the CPE, so I do not ever have to keep any state 
regarding individual customer placed devices.

We have already requested that our L3 switch vendors have ND starvation 
protection, but there is serious lack of documentation to point to.

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se

From swmike@swm.pp.se  Wed Jul 13 01:11:32 2011
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From: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
To: Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net>
Subject: Re: [ipv6] Re: /64 ND DoS
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On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Ray Hunter wrote:

> So where's the limit for ND and prefix length on today's implementations 
> and platforms?

Todays L3 switches typically have an ND/ARP table size limitations in the 
1-4k entry range.

> What if SLAAC was limited to using 20 bits or even just 16 bits of MAC 
> BIA information or even in extremis dare I say 12 bits?

/120 would be more doable. When I think of ND table size per customer, I'm 
thinking limitation to 16-32 entries, after that the customer needs to get 
a router.

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se

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To: Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net>
Subject: Re: [ipv6] Re: /64 ND DoS 
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In your letter dated Wed, 13 Jul 2011 01:47:32 +0200 you wrote:
>But EUI-48 itself has a not-very-well-published sub-structure of a 
>"manufacturer's IEEE-assigned company_id" and a "manufacturer-selected 
>extension identifier"
>
>What if SLAAC was (temporarily) redefined to build EUI-64 identifiers 
>with the manufacturer's IEEE-assigned company_id set to a single well 
>known value? i.e. EUI-64 was derived from the "manufacturer-selected 
>extension identifier" only.
>
>That would effectively mean there'd be 2^24 different possible interface 
>identifiers per prefix.

With SLAAC you get an IPv6 address that is essentially guaranteed to be
unique. 

There is absolutly no rule for allocating the lower 24 bits in an ehternet
address. If every vendor would simply start counting at 1, you can expect
a huge number of collisions.

>2^24 is approx 17e6 table entries as a maximum, which may not be 
>excessive for most modern devices, even most embedded ones. Whereas 2^64 
>has already been shown to be excessive via the ND vulnerability.

There are plenty of embedded devices with a relatively small number of
megabytes. There is plenty of hardware that would not support this.

>Or can SLAAC and DAD be amended to 'guess and test' a new interface 
>identifier automatically on detection of a duplicate address [like 
>Appletalk node ID acquisition on Extended Networks]?
>
>Would 2^24 interface identifiers be large enough that RFC 4941 (privacy 
>extension) addresses are still reasonably useful?
>[again bearing in mind the limited variation in the first 24 bits of 
>EUI-48 in practice]

I think there is something to be said for this. Add some text that if a router
advertises a prefix longer than /64 for SLAAC then the host will generate a
series of random numbers, test each of them in sequence and start using 
one that is collision free. What may be needed is that the host will keep
performing duplicate address detection periodically. On a typical home net
that might make it possible to go /112.

However, I much more prefer to solve the DoS problem for /64s than to just
give up.

From fweimer@bfk.de  Wed Jul 13 01:15:34 2011
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From: Florian Weimer <fweimer@bfk.de>
To: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS
References: <m1QgYeD-0001i9C@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <6ABB2F79-BE30-416B-8A6E-5F0389A37D2F@cisco.com> <22F6318E46E26B498ABC828879B08D4F1B4835@TK5EX14MBXW651.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <m1QgkAU-0001cKC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <22F6318E46E26B498ABC828879B08D4F1B502A@TK5EX14MBXW651.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107131005410.20159@uplift.swm.pp.se>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 08:15:30 +0000
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107131005410.20159@uplift.swm.pp.se> (Mikael Abrahamsson's message of "Wed, 13 Jul 2011 10:08:46 +0200 (CEST)")
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* Mikael Abrahamsson:

> On Tue, 12 Jul 2011, Christian Huitema wrote:
>
>> Then I am really not worried. This kind of attack is trivially
>> mitigated by any stateful firewall on the path. In addition to all
>> other mitigations that were listed on this thread.
>
> Think as an ISP. We do not stateful firewall our customers, and we
> might be forced to have requipment in the customer /64, at least
> initially.

Could you rephrase that?

If you're in the IPv4 consumer market, I'm pretty sure you provide
stateful filtering for customers.  (The filter probably resides on the
CPE.)  It's possible to do things differently with IPv6, but customers
will probably not like it.

--=20
Florian Weimer                <fweimer@bfk.de>
BFK edv-consulting GmbH       http://www.bfk.de/
Kriegsstra=DFe 100              tel: +49-721-96201-1
D-76133 Karlsruhe             fax: +49-721-96201-99

From pch-b2B3A6689@u-1.phicoh.com  Wed Jul 13 01:17:49 2011
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To: Arturo Servin <arturo.servin@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS 
From: Philip Homburg <pch-6man@u-1.phicoh.com>
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In your letter dated Tue, 12 Jul 2011 18:32:15 -0400 you wrote:
>
>	IMHO I think this would be a vector for other attacks in ND.
>
>	You may solve a remote attack but you are opening the door to =
>local attacks, and a big ones I think.

Let's assume for a moment a 'normal' link (not one with 6000 hosts) and a
protocol that spreads NS requests by the hosts over a period of say 20 seconds,
how would you then use this as an attack vector?



From swmike@swm.pp.se  Wed Jul 13 01:57:06 2011
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Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 10:57:01 +0200 (CEST)
From: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
To: Florian Weimer <fweimer@bfk.de>
Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS
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On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Florian Weimer wrote:

>> Think as an ISP. We do not stateful firewall our customers, and we
>> might be forced to have requipment in the customer /64, at least
>> initially.
>
> Could you rephrase that?

Our central (for some definition of central) equipment might have to be 
the default gw of the devices residing in the customer /64.

To scale, I of course want to have a LL onmly between my central equipment 
and a CPE, and DHCPv6-PD it a /56 and don't have to care about how many 
devices the customer has in his/her home, but a lot of people say 
requiring a CPE to deploy IPv6 is a showstopper so that most likely will 
not happen initially.

> If you're in the IPv4 consumer market, I'm pretty sure you provide 
> stateful filtering for customers.  (The filter probably resides on the 
> CPE.)  It's possible to do things differently with IPv6, but customers 
> will probably not like it.

No, we do not provide stateful filtering. We a lot of the time don't even 
provide a CPE. Customer can connect their computer directly into the wall 
RJ45 and get an IPv4 address today.

When looking at deploying IPv6 in this scenario, we'd like to put each 
customer in a separate /64 so we don't have to deal with a lot of the 
security issues seen when sharing L2 domain between several customers, but 
we'd still have to limit the amount of IPv6 addresses the customer can 
have "active" due to ND table size limitations (if our central equipment 
is the default gw on the customer LAN). This is even without any ddos 
discussion, this is just normal operations.

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se

From jeroen@unfix.org  Wed Jul 13 02:03:13 2011
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To: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
Subject: How to deploy IPv6 to endusers (Was: /64 ND DoS)
References: <m1QgYeD-0001i9C@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <6ABB2F79-BE30-416B-8A6E-5F0389A37D2F@cisco.com> <22F6318E46E26B498ABC828879B08D4F1B4835@TK5EX14MBXW651.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <m1QgkAU-0001cKC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <22F6318E46E26B498ABC828879B08D4F1B502A@TK5EX14MBXW651.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107131005410.20159@uplift.swm.pp.se> <82liw2oau5.fsf@mid.bfk.de> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107131051490.20159@uplift.swm.pp.se>
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On 2011-07-13 10:57 , Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
[..]
> No, we do not provide stateful filtering. We a lot of the time don't
> even provide a CPE. Customer can connect their computer directly into
> the wall RJ45 and get an IPv4 address today.
> 
> When looking at deploying IPv6 in this scenario, we'd like to put each
> customer in a separate /64 so we don't have to deal with a lot of the
> security issues seen when sharing L2 domain between several customers,
> but we'd still have to limit the amount of IPv6 addresses the customer
> can have "active" due to ND table size limitations (if our central
> equipment is the default gw on the customer LAN). This is even without
> any ddos discussion, this is just normal operations.

Why not deploy it like a lot of folks have been deploying IPv6 for over
a decade already:

 - a /64 link to the router/host of the user
   (<link>::1 is you, <link>::2 is them)
 - a route, be it /64, /56 or /48 to <link>::2 aka the user

That link can be a real Ethernet link or a tunnel. AVM Fritz!Box
supports this and various other vendors also find this great.

The "ND" issue now lies at the CPE device of the user, who will most
likely not be able to handle 1GB/s anyway when somebody wants to DDoS
them off the net...

Greets,
 Jeroen
  (who saw 500mbit coming sourced from 6to4 on Monday... and indeed most
home networks don't have 500mbit connectivity yet...)

From swmike@swm.pp.se  Wed Jul 13 02:18:14 2011
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From: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
To: Jeroen Massar <jeroen@unfix.org>
Subject: Re: How to deploy IPv6 to endusers (Was: /64 ND DoS)
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On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Jeroen Massar wrote:

> Why not deploy it like a lot of folks have been deploying IPv6 for over
> a decade already:
>
> - a /64 link to the router/host of the user
>   (<link>::1 is you, <link>::2 is them)
> - a route, be it /64, /56 or /48 to <link>::2 aka the user
>
> That link can be a real Ethernet link or a tunnel. AVM Fritz!Box
> supports this and various other vendors also find this great.

What? If it's a /64, then we have the /64 ND DoS problem we've been 
discussing for a gazillion mail already.

> The "ND" issue now lies at the CPE device of the user, who will most
> likely not be able to handle 1GB/s anyway when somebody wants to DDoS
> them off the net...

No it doesn't, if I am ::1 then if someone sends 10kpps to random values 
of ::X:Y:Z:W on that subnet I have to ND all those. 10kpps is 5 megabit/s, 
anyone can do that. I doubt most routers will work properly when handling 
10k ND state changes per second.

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se

From jeroen@unfix.org  Wed Jul 13 02:22:55 2011
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To: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
Subject: Re: How to deploy IPv6 to endusers (Was: /64 ND DoS)
References: <m1QgYeD-0001i9C@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <6ABB2F79-BE30-416B-8A6E-5F0389A37D2F@cisco.com> <22F6318E46E26B498ABC828879B08D4F1B4835@TK5EX14MBXW651.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <m1QgkAU-0001cKC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <22F6318E46E26B498ABC828879B08D4F1B502A@TK5EX14MBXW651.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107131005410.20159@uplift.swm.pp.se> <82liw2oau5.fsf@mid.bfk.de> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107131051490.20159@uplift.swm.pp.se> <4E1D5F48.7020501@unfix.org> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107131115350.20159@uplift.swm.pp.se>
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On 2011-07-13 11:18 , Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Jeroen Massar wrote:
> 
>> Why not deploy it like a lot of folks have been deploying IPv6 for over
>> a decade already:
>>
>> - a /64 link to the router/host of the user
>>   (<link>::1 is you, <link>::2 is them)
>> - a route, be it /64, /56 or /48 to <link>::2 aka the user
>>
>> That link can be a real Ethernet link or a tunnel. AVM Fritz!Box
>> supports this and various other vendors also find this great.
> 
> What? If it's a /64, then we have the /64 ND DoS problem we've been
> discussing for a gazillion mail already.

It might look like a /64, but you only use ::1 and ::2 and those are
effectively static and effectively it is a /127 without the anycast issue.

Heck, some people pick a /120 for it or whatever they find nice.
Configuration wise and counting wise /64 is just handy. And if one day
you have multi-access on that link, well, no re-numbering, just enable it.

>> The "ND" issue now lies at the CPE device of the user, who will most
>> likely not be able to handle 1GB/s anyway when somebody wants to DDoS
>> them off the net...
> 
> No it doesn't, if I am ::1 then if someone sends 10kpps to random values
> of ::X:Y:Z:W on that subnet I have to ND all those.

There is no subnet, only ::2, the rest you can ignore.

> 10kpps is 5 megabit/s, anyone can do that. I doubt most routers will
work properly
> when handling 10k ND state changes per second.

Test it out today and complain to your vendor ;)

Greets,
 Jeroen

From swmike@swm.pp.se  Wed Jul 13 03:10:11 2011
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From: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
To: Jeroen Massar <jeroen@unfix.org>
Subject: Re: How to deploy IPv6 to endusers (Was: /64 ND DoS)
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On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Jeroen Massar wrote:

> Heck, some people pick a /120 for it or whatever they find nice. 
> Configuration wise and counting wise /64 is just handy. And if one day 
> you have multi-access on that link, well, no re-numbering, just enable 
> it.

That's why /125 is nice for renumbering, and no ND issue.

>>> The "ND" issue now lies at the CPE device of the user, who will most
>>> likely not be able to handle 1GB/s anyway when somebody wants to DDoS
>>> them off the net...
>>
>> No it doesn't, if I am ::1 then if someone sends 10kpps to random values
>> of ::X:Y:Z:W on that subnet I have to ND all those.
>
> There is no subnet, only ::2, the rest you can ignore.

What should the router do when someone sends a packet to ::3 on that 
subnet? If it's a /64, then it's a subnet with 2^64 active addresses, I 
don't understand how you can call it a non-subnet.

> Test it out today and complain to your vendor ;)

Wow.

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se

From jeroen@unfix.org  Wed Jul 13 04:00:03 2011
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Subject: Re: How to deploy IPv6 to endusers (Was: /64 ND DoS)
References: <m1QgYeD-0001i9C@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <6ABB2F79-BE30-416B-8A6E-5F0389A37D2F@cisco.com> <22F6318E46E26B498ABC828879B08D4F1B4835@TK5EX14MBXW651.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <m1QgkAU-0001cKC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <22F6318E46E26B498ABC828879B08D4F1B502A@TK5EX14MBXW651.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107131005410.20159@uplift.swm.pp.se> <82liw2oau5.fsf@mid.bfk.de> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107131051490.20159@uplift.swm.pp.se> <4E1D5F48.7020501@unfix.org> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107131115350.20159@uplift.swm.pp.se> <4E1D63DE.80605@unfix.org> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107131207590.20159@uplift.swm.pp.se>
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On 2011-07-13 12:09 , Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Jeroen Massar wrote:
> 
>> Heck, some people pick a /120 for it or whatever they find nice.
>> Configuration wise and counting wise /64 is just handy. And if one day
>> you have multi-access on that link, well, no re-numbering, just enable
>> it.
> 
> That's why /125 is nice for renumbering, and no ND issue.

Yeah, pick whatever you like I would say. Just stay away from actually
putting a /127 on the link. Two /128s works like a charm though as then
subnet anycast is not involved anymore.

>>>> The "ND" issue now lies at the CPE device of the user, who will most
>>>> likely not be able to handle 1GB/s anyway when somebody wants to DDoS
>>>> them off the net...
>>>
>>> No it doesn't, if I am ::1 then if someone sends 10kpps to random values
>>> of ::X:Y:Z:W on that subnet I have to ND all those.
>>
>> There is no subnet, only ::2, the rest you can ignore.
> 
> What should the router do when someone sends a packet to ::3 on that
> subnet? If it's a /64, then it's a subnet with 2^64 active addresses, I
> don't understand how you can call it a non-subnet.

To take this little thing called SixXS as an example, we allocate a /64
per tunnel, but only use <tunnel>::1 (PoP) and <tunnel>::2 (user).

We actually only configure ::1 on the tunnel and route ::2 to the
tunnel, thus effectively two /128's. Thus for everything else there will
be directly an ICMP unreachable. Simple as that.

>> Test it out today and complain to your vendor ;)
> 
> Wow.

What else would you do? :)

Greets,
 Jeroen

From swmike@swm.pp.se  Wed Jul 13 04:20:38 2011
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From: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
To: Jeroen Massar <jeroen@unfix.org>
Subject: Re: How to deploy IPv6 to endusers (Was: /64 ND DoS)
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On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Jeroen Massar wrote:

> To take this little thing called SixXS as an example, we allocate a /64
> per tunnel, but only use <tunnel>::1 (PoP) and <tunnel>::2 (user).
>
> We actually only configure ::1 on the tunnel and route ::2 to the
> tunnel, thus effectively two /128's. Thus for everything else there will
> be directly an ICMP unreachable. Simple as that.

A tunnel is not a broadcast medium, it's a point to point device. You 
already statically tell it what the other end address is, right? Thus, 
this is not a problem on this type of tunnel.

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se

From jeroen@unfix.org  Wed Jul 13 04:46:46 2011
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To: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
Subject: Re: How to deploy IPv6 to endusers (Was: /64 ND DoS)
References: <m1QgYeD-0001i9C@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <6ABB2F79-BE30-416B-8A6E-5F0389A37D2F@cisco.com> <22F6318E46E26B498ABC828879B08D4F1B4835@TK5EX14MBXW651.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <m1QgkAU-0001cKC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <22F6318E46E26B498ABC828879B08D4F1B502A@TK5EX14MBXW651.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107131005410.20159@uplift.swm.pp.se> <82liw2oau5.fsf@mid.bfk.de> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107131051490.20159@uplift.swm.pp.se> <4E1D5F48.7020501@unfix.org> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107131115350.20159@uplift.swm.pp.se> <4E1D63DE.80605@unfix.org> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107131207590.20159@uplift.swm.pp.se> <4E1D7AAA.200@unfix.org> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107131308590.20159@uplift.swm.pp.se>
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On 2011-07-13 13:20 , Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Jeroen Massar wrote:
> 
>> To take this little thing called SixXS as an example, we allocate a /64
>> per tunnel, but only use <tunnel>::1 (PoP) and <tunnel>::2 (user).
>>
>> We actually only configure ::1 on the tunnel and route ::2 to the
>> tunnel, thus effectively two /128's. Thus for everything else there will
>> be directly an ICMP unreachable. Simple as that.
> 
> A tunnel is not a broadcast medium, it's a point to point device. You
> already statically tell it what the other end address is, right? Thus,
> this is not a problem on this type of tunnel.

And you can do exactly the same on a Ethernet link... if there are only
2 addresses (router + user) then there is no need to do ND, well, you
might need to discover the ::2 but that is it, the rest can be ignored.

Greets,
 Jeroen

From swmike@swm.pp.se  Wed Jul 13 04:52:36 2011
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Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 13:52:33 +0200 (CEST)
From: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
To: Jeroen Massar <jeroen@unfix.org>
Subject: Re: How to deploy IPv6 to endusers (Was: /64 ND DoS)
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On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Jeroen Massar wrote:

> And you can do exactly the same on a Ethernet link... if there are only 
> 2 addresses (router + user) then there is no need to do ND, well, you 
> might need to discover the ::2 but that is it, the rest can be ignored.

Yes, true, you route ::2 to the ethernet interface, but then it's not 
really a /64, it's a /128 that you reach via ethernet.

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se

From jeroen@unfix.org  Wed Jul 13 04:55:28 2011
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Subject: Re: How to deploy IPv6 to endusers (Was: /64 ND DoS)
References: <m1QgYeD-0001i9C@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <6ABB2F79-BE30-416B-8A6E-5F0389A37D2F@cisco.com> <22F6318E46E26B498ABC828879B08D4F1B4835@TK5EX14MBXW651.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <m1QgkAU-0001cKC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <22F6318E46E26B498ABC828879B08D4F1B502A@TK5EX14MBXW651.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107131005410.20159@uplift.swm.pp.se> <82liw2oau5.fsf@mid.bfk.de> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107131051490.20159@uplift.swm.pp.se> <4E1D5F48.7020501@unfix.org> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107131115350.20159@uplift.swm.pp.se> <4E1D63DE.80605@unfix.org> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107131207590.20159@uplift.swm.pp.se> <4E1D7AAA.200@unfix.org> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107131308590.20159@uplift.swm.pp.se> <4E1D859D.9020207@unfix.org> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107131351470.20159@uplift.swm.pp.se>
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On 2011-07-13 13:52 , Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Jeroen Massar wrote:
> 
>> And you can do exactly the same on a Ethernet link... if there are
>> only 2 addresses (router + user) then there is no need to do ND, well,
>> you might need to discover the ::2 but that is it, the rest can be
>> ignored.
> 
> Yes, true, you route ::2 to the ethernet interface, but then it's not
> really a /64, it's a /128 that you reach via ethernet.

And is that not what you want to achieve?

It gives you the flexibility to limit the number of NDs being made,
while also the option of making it multi-access, or one day upgrading it
to one of those fancy proposed crypto-IP-address schemes ;)

Greets,
 Jeroen

From swmike@swm.pp.se  Wed Jul 13 05:41:23 2011
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From: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
To: Jeroen Massar <jeroen@unfix.org>
Subject: Re: How to deploy IPv6 to endusers (Was: /64 ND DoS)
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On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Jeroen Massar wrote:

>> Yes, true, you route ::2 to the ethernet interface, but then it's not
>> really a /64, it's a /128 that you reach via ethernet.
>
> And is that not what you want to achieve?

Not in the deployment scenario I was talking about (where we act 
default-gw for customer which want to directly hook up SLAAC devices).

For routed scenarios I prefer LL only between PE and CPE.

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se

From rathiguru@hotmail.com  Wed Jul 13 05:43:24 2011
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From: Thiruma valavan <rathiguru@hotmail.com>
To: <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Doubt in Router Advertisement Message
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 18:13:22 +0530
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Vishwas=2C
I am having one more doubt in IPv6 Fragmentation=20

Router Interface MTU 1500=2C Host A wants to send a packet with 3=2C000 dat=
a bytes but MTU is 1500=2C so it needs to fragment the packet.
As per RFC 2460=2C First Packet 40 bytes (IPv6 Header) + 8 bytes Fragment H=
eader + 1452 Data =3D 1500 =20

	            Second Packet 40 bytes (IPv6 Header) + 8 bytes Fragment Header=
 + 1452 Data =3D 1500 =20
                   Third Packet     40 bytes (IPv6 Header) + 8 bytes Fragme=
nt Header +    96 Data =3D  1500=20
=20


Thanks=2C
Thiru=20


Date: Sat=2C 9 Jul 2011 15:05:47 -0700
From: vishwas.ietf@gmail.com
To: rathiguru@hotmail.com=3B ipv6@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Doubt in Router Advertisement Message

Hi Thiruma=2C

>From the specs it is clear that the MTU is optional. However if MTU sending=
 is enabled it should be sent on change too.

Sounds like a bug in the implementation to me.

Thanks=2C
Vishwas



Sent from my Palm Pre on AT&T
On Jul 9=2C 2011 2:51 AM=2C Thiruma valavan <rathiguru@hotmail.com> wrote:=
=20


Hi IETF Group=2C
While testing IPV6 Router Advertisement part=2C I noticed some behaviour th=
at if I changed router interface MTU value=2C it won't send Router Advertis=
ement message immediately instead of waiting to next interval time.

Is that normal behaviour=2C=20
Thanks & Regards=2C

Thirumavalavan PCalsoflabs India Pvt Ltd=2CBangaloreATLEN Group of CompanyM=
ob: +91 9790758035=20
 		 	   		 =20
 		 	   		  =

--_8d3c6d41-e2c6-4d91-9882-6df81ab7af78_
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<html>
<head>
<style><!--
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px=3B
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 10pt=3B
font-family:Tahoma
}
--></style>
</head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>
<font color=3D"#0F243E" style=3D"font-size: 10pt=3B "><font class=3D"Apple-=
style-span" face=3D"Tahoma">Vishwas=2C<br id=3D"FontBreak"></font></font><d=
iv><div style=3D"font-size: 10pt=3B "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" colo=
r=3D"#0f243e" face=3D"Verdana"><br></font></div><div style=3D"font-size: 10=
pt=3B "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#0f243e" face=3D"Verdana"=
>I am having one more doubt in IPv6 Fragmentation&nbsp=3B<br></font></div><=
div style=3D"font-size: 10pt=3B "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D=
"#0f243e" face=3D"Verdana"><br></font></div><div style=3D"font-size: 10pt=
=3B "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#0f243e" face=3D"Verdana">R=
outer Interface MTU 1500=2C Host A wants to send a packet with 3=2C000 data=
 bytes but MTU is 1500=2C so it needs to fragment the packet.</font></div><=
div style=3D"font-size: 10pt=3B "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D=
"#0f243e" face=3D"Verdana"><br></font></div><div style=3D"font-size: 10pt=
=3B "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#0f243e" face=3D"Verdana">A=
s per RFC 2460=2C First Packet 40 bytes (IPv6 Header) + 8 bytes Fragment He=
ader + 1452 Data =3D 1500 &nbsp=3B<br></font></div><div style=3D"font-size:=
 10pt=3B "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#0f243e" face=3D"Verda=
na"><br></font></div><div style=3D"font-size: 10pt=3B "><font class=3D"Appl=
e-style-span" color=3D"#0f243e" face=3D"Verdana"><span class=3D"Apple-tab-s=
pan" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>&nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B =
&nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B Second Packet&nbsp=3B</font><span class=3D"Apple-style-sp=
an" style=3D"color: rgb(15=2C 36=2C 62)=3B font-family: Verdana=3B ">40 byt=
es (IPv6 Header) + 8 bytes Fragment Header + 1452 Data =3D 1500 &nbsp=3B</s=
pan></div><div style=3D"font-size: 10pt=3B "><span class=3D"Apple-style-spa=
n" style=3D"color: rgb(15=2C 36=2C 62)=3B font-family: Verdana=3B "><br></s=
pan></div><div style=3D"font-size: 10pt=3B "><span class=3D"Apple-style-spa=
n" style=3D"color: rgb(15=2C 36=2C 62)=3B font-family: Verdana=3B ">&nbsp=
=3B &nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B=
 &nbsp=3BThird Packet &nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B</span><span class=3D"Apple-=
style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(15=2C 36=2C 62)=3B font-family: Verdana=3B =
">40 bytes (IPv6 Header) + 8 bytes Fragment Header + &nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B96 Da=
ta =3D &nbsp=3B1500&nbsp=3B</span></div><div style=3D"font-size: 10pt=3B ">=
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(15=2C 36=2C 62)=3B fon=
t-family: Verdana=3B "><br></span></div><div style=3D"font-size: 10pt=3B ">=
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(15=2C 36=2C 62)=3B fon=
t-family: Verdana=3B ">&nbsp=3B</span></div><div style=3D"text-indent: 0px =
!important=3B font-size: 10pt=3B "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=
=3D"#0f243e" face=3D"Verdana" style=3D"text-indent: 0px !important=3B "><br=
 style=3D"text-indent: 0px !important=3B "></font></div><div style=3D"text-=
indent: 0px !important=3B font-size: 10pt=3B "><font class=3D"Apple-style-s=
pan" color=3D"#0f243e" face=3D"Verdana" style=3D"text-indent: 0px !importan=
t=3B "><br></font></div><div style=3D"text-indent: 0px !important=3B font-s=
ize: 10pt=3B "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#0f243e" face=3D"V=
erdana" style=3D"text-indent: 0px !important=3B "><br></font></div><div sty=
le=3D"text-indent: 0px !important=3B font-size: 10pt=3B "><font class=3D"Ap=
ple-style-span" color=3D"#0f243e" face=3D"Verdana" style=3D"text-indent: 0p=
x !important=3B "><br style=3D"text-indent: 0px !important=3B "></font></di=
v><div><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" face=3D"Verdana"><br></font></di=
v><div><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" face=3D"Verdana" size=3D"2" styl=
e=3D"font-size: 10pt=3B ">Thanks=2C<br><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" fac=
e=3D"Tahoma">Thiru</font></font><div style=3D"font-family: Tahoma=3B font-s=
ize: 10pt=3B "><div>&nbsp=3B<br></div></div><br><br><div style=3D"font-size=
: 10pt=3B font-family: Tahoma=3B "><hr id=3D"stopSpelling">Date: Sat=2C 9 J=
ul 2011 15:05:47 -0700<br>From: vishwas.ietf@gmail.com<br>To: rathiguru@hot=
mail.com=3B ipv6@ietf.org<br>Subject: Re: Doubt in Router Advertisement Mes=
sage<br><br>Hi Thiruma=2C<br><br>From the specs it is clear that the MTU is=
 optional. However if MTU sending is enabled it should be sent on change to=
o.<br><br>Sounds like a bug in the implementation to me.<br><br>Thanks=2C<b=
r>Vishwas<br><br><span style=3D"font-family:Prelude=2C Verdana=2C san-serif=
"><br><br></span><span id=3D"ecxsignature"><div style=3D"font-family:arial=
=2C sans-serif=3Bfont-size:12px=3Bcolor:#999999">Sent from my Palm Pre on A=
T&amp=3BT</div><br></span><span style=3D"color:navy=3Bfont-family:Prelude=
=2C Verdana=2C san-serif"><hr align=3D"left" style=3D"width:75%">On Jul 9=
=2C 2011 2:51 AM=2C Thiruma valavan &lt=3Brathiguru@hotmail.com&gt=3B wrote=
: <br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">
<font face=3D"Verdana" style=3D"font-family:Tahoma">Hi IETF Group=2C<br id=
=3D"ecxFontBreak"></font><div><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" face=3D"V=
erdana"><br></font></div><div><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" face=3D"V=
erdana">While testing IPV6 Router Advertisement part=2C I noticed some beha=
viour that if I changed router interface MTU value=2C it won't send Router =
Advertisement message immediately instead of waiting to next interval time.=
<br></font></div><div><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" face=3D"Verdana">=
<br></font></div><div><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" face=3D"Verdana">=
Is that normal behaviour=2C&nbsp=3B</font></div><div><font class=3D"ecxAppl=
e-style-span" face=3D"Verdana"><br></font><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-spa=
n" face=3D"Tahoma">Thanks &amp=3B Regards=2C</font><br><font class=3D"ecxAp=
ple-style-span" face=3D"Tahoma">
Thirumavalavan P</font><div style=3D"font-family:Tahoma">Calsoflabs India P=
vt Ltd=2CBangalore</div><div style=3D"font-family:Tahoma">ATLEN Group of Co=
mpany</div><div style=3D"font-family:Tahoma">Mob: +91 9790758035 <br></div>=
</div> 		 	   		  </div>
</span></div></div></div> 		 	   		  </div></body>
</html>=

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--_b2d195fa-6892-4e99-91b3-36155d967fd3_--

From rathiguru@hotmail.com  Wed Jul 13 05:46:49 2011
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From: Thiruma valavan <rathiguru@hotmail.com>
To: <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>
Subject: FW: Doubt in Router Advertisement Message
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This is the correct packet capture for IPv6 fragmentation

Thanks=2C
Thiru=20


From: rathiguru@hotmail.com
To: vishwas.ietf@gmail.com
CC: ipv6@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Doubt in Router Advertisement Message
Date: Wed=2C 13 Jul 2011 18:13:22 +0530








Vishwas=2C
I am having one more doubt in IPv6 Fragmentation=20

Router Interface MTU 1500=2C Host A wants to send a packet with 3=2C000 dat=
a bytes but MTU is 1500=2C so it needs to fragment the packet.
As per RFC 2460=2C First Packet 40 bytes (IPv6 Header) + 8 bytes Fragment H=
eader + 1452 Data =3D 1500 =20

	            Second Packet 40 bytes (IPv6 Header) + 8 bytes Fragment Header=
 + 1452 Data =3D 1500 =20
                   Third Packet     40 bytes (IPv6 Header) + 8 bytes Fragme=
nt Header +    96 Data =3D  1500=20
=20


Thanks=2C
Thiru=20


Date: Sat=2C 9 Jul 2011 15:05:47 -0700
From: vishwas.ietf@gmail.com
To: rathiguru@hotmail.com=3B ipv6@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Doubt in Router Advertisement Message

Hi Thiruma=2C

>From the specs it is clear that the MTU is optional. However if MTU sending=
 is enabled it should be sent on change too.

Sounds like a bug in the implementation to me.

Thanks=2C
Vishwas



Sent from my Palm Pre on AT&T
On Jul 9=2C 2011 2:51 AM=2C Thiruma valavan <rathiguru@hotmail.com> wrote:=
=20


Hi IETF Group=2C
While testing IPV6 Router Advertisement part=2C I noticed some behaviour th=
at if I changed router interface MTU value=2C it won't send Router Advertis=
ement message immediately instead of waiting to next interval time.

Is that normal behaviour=2C=20
Thanks & Regards=2C

Thirumavalavan PCalsoflabs India Pvt Ltd=2CBangaloreATLEN Group of CompanyM=
ob: +91 9790758035=20
 		 	   		 =20
 		 	   		   		 	   		  =

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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>
<font class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#0f243e" face=3D"Verdana">This is=
 the correct packet capture for IPv6 fragmentation<br></font><br><font clas=
s=3D"ecxApple-style-span" size=3D"2" face=3D"Verdana">Thanks=2C<br>Thiru</f=
ont><div style=3D"font-family: Tahoma=3B font-size: 10pt=3B "><div>&nbsp=3B=
<br></div></div><br><br><div style=3D"font-family: Tahoma=3B "><hr id=3D"st=
opSpelling">From: rathiguru@hotmail.com<br>To: vishwas.ietf@gmail.com<br>CC=
: ipv6@ietf.org<br>Subject: RE: Doubt in Router Advertisement Message<br>Da=
te: Wed=2C 13 Jul 2011 18:13:22 +0530<br><br>

<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html=3B charset=3Dunicode=
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<div dir=3D"ltr">
<font color=3D"#0F243E" style=3D"font-size:10pt"><font class=3D"ecxApple-st=
yle-span" face=3D"Tahoma">Vishwas=2C<br id=3D"ecxFontBreak"></font></font><=
div><div style=3D"font-size:10pt"><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" color=
=3D"#0f243e" face=3D"Verdana"><br></font></div><div style=3D"font-size:10pt=
"><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" color=3D"#0f243e" face=3D"Verdana">I =
am having one more doubt in IPv6 Fragmentation&nbsp=3B<br></font></div><div=
 style=3D"font-size:10pt"><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" color=3D"#0f2=
43e" face=3D"Verdana"><br></font></div><div style=3D"font-size:10pt"><font =
class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" color=3D"#0f243e" face=3D"Verdana">Router Int=
erface MTU 1500=2C Host A wants to send a packet with 3=2C000 data bytes bu=
t MTU is 1500=2C so it needs to fragment the packet.</font></div><div style=
=3D"font-size:10pt"><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" color=3D"#0f243e" f=
ace=3D"Verdana"><br></font></div><div style=3D"font-size:10pt"><font class=
=3D"ecxApple-style-span" color=3D"#0f243e" face=3D"Verdana">As per RFC 2460=
=2C First Packet 40 bytes (IPv6 Header) + 8 bytes Fragment Header + 1452 Da=
ta =3D 1500 &nbsp=3B<br></font></div><div style=3D"font-size:10pt"><font cl=
ass=3D"ecxApple-style-span" color=3D"#0f243e" face=3D"Verdana"><br></font><=
/div><div style=3D"font-size:10pt"><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" colo=
r=3D"#0f243e" face=3D"Verdana"><span class=3D"ecxApple-tab-span" style=3D"w=
hite-space:pre">	</span>&nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B &nbsp=
=3B Second Packet&nbsp=3B</font><span class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" style=
=3D"color:rgb(15=2C 36=2C 62)=3Bfont-family:Verdana">40 bytes (IPv6 Header)=
 + 8 bytes Fragment Header + 1452 Data =3D 1500 &nbsp=3B</span></div><div s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10pt"><span class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" style=3D"color:=
rgb(15=2C 36=2C 62)=3Bfont-family:Verdana"><br></span></div><div style=3D"f=
ont-size:10pt"><span class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" style=3D"color:rgb(15=2C=
 36=2C 62)=3Bfont-family:Verdana">&nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B &nbsp=
=3B &nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B &nbsp=3BThird Packet &nbsp=3B &nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3B</span><span class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" style=3D"color:rgb(15=
=2C 36=2C 62)=3Bfont-family:Verdana">40 bytes (IPv6 Header) + 8 bytes Fragm=
ent Header + &nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B96 Data =3D &nbsp=3B1500&nbsp=3B</span></div>=
<div style=3D"font-size:10pt"><span class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" style=3D"=
color:rgb(15=2C 36=2C 62)=3Bfont-family:Verdana"><br></span></div><div styl=
e=3D"font-size:10pt"><span class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" style=3D"color:rgb=
(15=2C 36=2C 62)=3Bfont-family:Verdana">&nbsp=3B</span></div><div style=3D"=
text-indent:0px !important=3Bfont-size:10pt"><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-=
span" color=3D"#0f243e" face=3D"Verdana" style=3D"text-indent:0px !importan=
t"><br style=3D"text-indent:0px !important"></font></div><div style=3D"text=
-indent:0px !important=3Bfont-size:10pt"><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-span=
" color=3D"#0f243e" face=3D"Verdana" style=3D"text-indent:0px !important"><=
br></font></div><div style=3D"text-indent:0px !important=3Bfont-size:10pt">=
<font class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" color=3D"#0f243e" face=3D"Verdana" styl=
e=3D"text-indent:0px !important"><br></font></div><div style=3D"text-indent=
:0px !important=3Bfont-size:10pt"><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" color=
=3D"#0f243e" face=3D"Verdana" style=3D"text-indent:0px !important"><br styl=
e=3D"text-indent:0px !important"></font></div><div><font class=3D"ecxApple-=
style-span" face=3D"Verdana"><br></font></div><div><font class=3D"ecxApple-=
style-span" face=3D"Verdana" size=3D"2" style=3D"font-size:10pt">Thanks=2C<=
br><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" face=3D"Tahoma">Thiru</font></font><=
div style=3D"font-family:Tahoma=3Bfont-size:10pt"><div>&nbsp=3B<br></div></=
div><br><br><div style=3D"font-size:10pt=3Bfont-family:Tahoma"><hr id=3D"ec=
xstopSpelling">Date: Sat=2C 9 Jul 2011 15:05:47 -0700<br>From: vishwas.ietf=
@gmail.com<br>To: rathiguru@hotmail.com=3B ipv6@ietf.org<br>Subject: Re: Do=
ubt in Router Advertisement Message<br><br>Hi Thiruma=2C<br><br>From the sp=
ecs it is clear that the MTU is optional. However if MTU sending is enabled=
 it should be sent on change too.<br><br>Sounds like a bug in the implement=
ation to me.<br><br>Thanks=2C<br>Vishwas<br><br><span style=3D"font-family:=
Prelude=2C Verdana=2C san-serif"><br><br></span><span id=3D"ecxsignature"><=
div style=3D"font-family:arial=2C sans-serif=3Bfont-size:12px=3Bcolor:#9999=
99">Sent from my Palm Pre on AT&amp=3BT</div><br></span><span style=3D"colo=
r:navy=3Bfont-family:Prelude=2C Verdana=2C san-serif"><hr align=3D"left" st=
yle=3D"width:75%">On Jul 9=2C 2011 2:51 AM=2C Thiruma valavan &lt=3Brathigu=
ru@hotmail.com&gt=3B wrote: <br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">
<font face=3D"Verdana" style=3D"font-family:Tahoma">Hi IETF Group=2C<br id=
=3D"ecxFontBreak"></font><div><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" face=3D"V=
erdana"><br></font></div><div><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" face=3D"V=
erdana">While testing IPV6 Router Advertisement part=2C I noticed some beha=
viour that if I changed router interface MTU value=2C it won't send Router =
Advertisement message immediately instead of waiting to next interval time.=
<br></font></div><div><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" face=3D"Verdana">=
<br></font></div><div><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-span" face=3D"Verdana">=
Is that normal behaviour=2C&nbsp=3B</font></div><div><font class=3D"ecxAppl=
e-style-span" face=3D"Verdana"><br></font><font class=3D"ecxApple-style-spa=
n" face=3D"Tahoma">Thanks &amp=3B Regards=2C</font><br><font class=3D"ecxAp=
ple-style-span" face=3D"Tahoma">
Thirumavalavan P</font><div style=3D"font-family:Tahoma">Calsoflabs India P=
vt Ltd=2CBangalore</div><div style=3D"font-family:Tahoma">ATLEN Group of Co=
mpany</div><div style=3D"font-family:Tahoma">Mob: +91 9790758035 <br></div>=
</div> 		 	   		  </div>
</span></div></div></div> 		 	   		  </div></div> 		 	   		  </div></body>
</html>=

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From arturo.servin@gmail.com  Wed Jul 13 06:14:44 2011
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From: Arturo Servin <arturo.servin@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 09:14:15 -0400
Message-ID: <CALo9H1ap+7Bb+1QDJF0Pj4j2YcaX+-wQUD6=J=D0LR4BrYdqqg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS
To: Philip Homburg <pch-6man@u-1.phicoh.com>
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  What's the point?

   If you asume unrealistic scenarios to prove your concept, then you
have a problem with your solution.

   The problem is that you have a link where the attacker can have
2^64 different addresses to spoof and it can send NS request at any
rate.

-as


On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 4:17 AM, Philip Homburg <pch-6man@u-1.phicoh.com> w=
rote:
> In your letter dated Tue, 12 Jul 2011 18:32:15 -0400 you wrote:
>>
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 IMHO I think this would be a vector for other attacks in ND.
>>
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 You may solve a remote attack but you are opening the door t=
o =3D
>>local attacks, and a big ones I think.
>
> Let's assume for a moment a 'normal' link (not one with 6000 hosts) and a
> protocol that spreads NS requests by the hosts over a period of say 20 se=
conds,
> how would you then use this as an attack vector?
>
>
>

From jmh@joelhalpern.com  Wed Jul 13 08:54:14 2011
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To: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS
References: <m1QgYeD-0001i9C@stereo.hq.phicoh.net>	<6ABB2F79-BE30-416B-8A6E-5F0389A37D2F@cisco.com>	<22F6318E46E26B498ABC828879B08D4F1B4835@TK5EX14MBXW651.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com>	<m1QgkAU-0001cKC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net>	<22F6318E46E26B498ABC828879B08D4F1B502A@TK5EX14MBXW651.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107131005410.20159@uplift.swm.pp.se>
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There appear to be several different cases, which can be addressed by 
different reasonable mechanisms (not firewalls, and not lengthening the 
subnet prefix.)

For ISPs, I would assume the primary concern is routers connecting to 
subnets used to provide services.  A non-dynamic approach to ND can 
address that.

For ISPs providing bridged residential services, the ISP normally 
operates on the basis that it gets registration information from all the 
devices in the home.  Thus, it does not need to generate ND solicitations.

Yours,
Joel

On 7/13/2011 4:08 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Jul 2011, Christian Huitema wrote:
>
>> Then I am really not worried. This kind of attack is trivially
>> mitigated by any stateful firewall on the path. In addition to all
>> other mitigations that were listed on this thread.
>
> Think as an ISP. We do not stateful firewall our customers, and we might
> be forced to have requipment in the customer /64, at least initially.
> This is a real problem, as this device will in some cases be a L3 switch
> with quite limited CPU and FIB table size.
>
> I definitely prefer to have only link-local between me and a CPE and
> just route the /56 to the CPE, so I do not ever have to keep any state
> regarding individual customer placed devices.
>
> We have already requested that our L3 switch vendors have ND starvation
> protection, but there is serious lack of documentation to point to.
>

From swmike@swm.pp.se  Wed Jul 13 09:07:39 2011
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From: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS
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On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Joel M. Halpern wrote:

> For ISPs providing bridged residential services, the ISP normally 
> operates on the basis that it gets registration information from all the 
> devices in the home.  Thus, it does not need to generate ND 
> solicitations.

Is there some description of this behaviour somewhere, what would this 
feature be called that I can ask vendors if they have in their equipment?

Just to be sure, we're now saying that reachability won't be had from the 
outside unless the internal device keeps itself "registered" with the ISP 
router.

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se

From jmh@joelhalpern.com  Wed Jul 13 09:31:06 2011
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To: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS
References: <m1QgYeD-0001i9C@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <6ABB2F79-BE30-416B-8A6E-5F0389A37D2F@cisco.com> <22F6318E46E26B498ABC828879B08D4F1B4835@TK5EX14MBXW651.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <m1QgkAU-0001cKC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <22F6318E46E26B498ABC828879B08D4F1B502A@TK5EX14MBXW651.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107131005410.20159@uplift.swm.pp.se> <4E1DBFA0.1050103@joelhalpern.com> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1107131806160.20159@uplift.swm.pp.se>
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I asked our PMs about this after some earlier discussions, and for many 
BRAS deployments of IPv6, this restriction is a natural side-effect of 
normal and desired behavior.
I do not know what the feature name is as used in product.
(I worry more about what it does, not what it is called in the 
marketting literature.  Sorry.)

Yours,
Joel

On 7/13/2011 12:07 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
>
>> For ISPs providing bridged residential services, the ISP normally
>> operates on the basis that it gets registration information from all
>> the devices in the home. Thus, it does not need to generate ND
>> solicitations.
>
> Is there some description of this behaviour somewhere, what would this
> feature be called that I can ask vendors if they have in their equipment?
>
> Just to be sure, we're now saying that reachability won't be had from
> the outside unless the internal device keeps itself "registered" with
> the ISP router.
>

From jared@puck.nether.net  Wed Jul 13 09:45:49 2011
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Subject: Re: [ipv6] Re: /64 ND DoS
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On Jul 13, 2011, at 4:11 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Ray Hunter wrote:
>=20
>> So where's the limit for ND and prefix length on today's =
implementations and platforms?
>=20
> Todays L3 switches typically have an ND/ARP table size limitations in =
the 1-4k entry range.
>=20
>> What if SLAAC was limited to using 20 bits or even just 16 bits of =
MAC BIA information or even in extremis dare I say 12 bits?
>=20
> /120 would be more doable. When I think of ND table size per customer, =
I'm thinking limitation to 16-32 entries, after that the customer needs =
to get a router.

We have seen problems in the 2^11 or 2^12 in IPv4 land with =
directly-connected customer lans.  The ability for the Mac <-> IP (ARP) =
to work properly is a serious issue with reasonable routers.

I think the larger issue here is that an ARP either =
solicited/unsolicited does not cause an entry to age.  That is what =
happens in IPv6 (NDP) land, so that's an issue IMHO.

- Jared=

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Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS  
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On Weds 13 July 2011 at 11:54:08 -0400, Joel Halpern wrote:
> There appear to be several different cases, which can be addressed 
> by different reasonable mechanisms (not firewalls, and not lengthening
> the subnet prefix.)
> 
> For ISPs, I would assume the primary concern is routers connecting 
> to subnets used to provide services. A non-dynamic approach to ND
> can address that.
> 
> For ISPs providing bridged residential services, the ISP normally 
> operates on the basis that it gets registration information 
> from all the devices in the home.  Thus, it does not need
> to generate ND solicitations.

Agreed.

I do think it would be useful to have an informational document
that describes the issue, describes the several cases, and outlines 
some reasonable mechanisms (possibly separate mechanisms for each case),
both for the benefit of network operations folks and also for
the benefit of equipment suppliers.

Perhaps I am confused, but such a document sounds more like an IPv6 Ops WG 
item than an IPv6 WG item.  So I'm wondering whether this thread belongs 
over there rather than here.

Yours,

Ran


From pch-b2B3A6689@u-1.phicoh.com  Wed Jul 13 09:53:14 2011
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To: Arturo Servin <arturo.servin@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS 
From: Philip Homburg <pch-6man@u-1.phicoh.com>
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In your letter dated Wed, 13 Jul 2011 09:14:15 -0400 you wrote:
>  What's the point?
>
>   If you asume unrealistic scenarios to prove your concept, then you
>have a problem with your solution.
>
>   The problem is that you have a link where the attacker can have
>2^64 different addresses to spoof and it can send NS request at any
>rate.

I guess I completely misunderstand what your are trying to say. Without
specific L2 and L3 measures, already today, a local attacker can send
NS requests for around 2^64 different addresses.

Nothing I proposed changes that.

So, I said I want to deal with a remote attack. And then you suggested that
I made local attacks worse. 

But now you mention a local attack works already today.

So I missing the point to are trying to make.

From jared@puck.nether.net  Wed Jul 13 10:01:46 2011
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Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS
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On Jul 13, 2011, at 9:14 AM, Arturo Servin wrote:

>  What's the point?
>=20
>   If you asume unrealistic scenarios to prove your concept, then you
> have a problem with your solution.
>=20
>   The problem is that you have a link where the attacker can have
> 2^64 different addresses to spoof and it can send NS request at any
> rate.

I think what's most interesting is that the nature of the "threat" on =
the IPv6 capable Internet is the ability to generate high PPS rate =
activity easily.  One needs to look no further than the risk and high =
PPS attacks on the IPv4 side of things.  It's quite reasonable to expect =
to have 10k or more unique hosts(source IPs) participating in an attack.

If you are a CDN, Major Web Property, or even Residential provider your =
risk in IPv4 is one per host or routed IP.  The scale involved here is =
much larger by design, and the potential of a poorly behaving NDP =
implementation to be overwhelmed is quite easy.  Not many vendors can =
handle 10k or 100kpps in their control-plane.

To (re)state the biggest design issue with NDP again, it's outlined in =
7.3 of the v6nd-enhance draft:

-- snip --
7.3.  NDP Protocol Gratuitous NA

   Per RFC 4861, section 7.2.5 and 7.2.6 [RFC4861] requires that
   unsolicited neighbor advertisements result in the receiver setting
   it's neighbor cache entry to STALE, kicking off the resolution of the
   neighbor using neighbor solicitation.
-- snip --

Forcing an entry to STALE if you see an unsolicited NA (assuming it =
matches the existing NA) seems unnecessary and counterproductive as it =
can interrupt traffic to existing hosts.

Solving a remotely-exploitable specification problem is much different =
than solving a layer-2 compromise.  Those are different risks and =
require a different solution and mitigation, (eg: duplicate IP detection =
in v4 and various layer-2 security features dhcp-guard, etc).

- Jared=

From pch-b2B3A6689@u-1.phicoh.com  Wed Jul 13 10:03:28 2011
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To: RJ Atkinson <rja.lists@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS 
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In your letter dated Wed, 13 Jul 2011 12:51:15 -0400 you wrote:
>Perhaps I am confused, but such a document sounds more like an IPv6 Ops WG 
>item than an IPv6 WG item.  So I'm wondering whether this thread belongs 
>over there rather than here.

I started this thread to see if RFC-4861 can improved to the point that
just an IPv6 router and a bunch of IPv6 hosts can survive this kind of DoS
without any extra devices, configuration, etc.

The thread then quickly degenerated into something that belongs more in
v6ops.

But my preference would be to build it into RFC-4861 instead of all kinds
of ah-hoc measures (so far we have seen at least long prefixes, firewalls,
explicit registration)



From wesley.george@twcable.com  Wed Jul 13 11:14:37 2011
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From: "George, Wesley" <wesley.george@twcable.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 14:14:31 -0400
Subject: RE: /64 ND DoS
Thread-Topic: /64 ND DoS
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For some value of "normal and desired" anyway... Smells like a major scale =
problem to me for the BRAS to have to maintain that much state, at least if=
 you're not making a distinction between devices which are directly connect=
ed (one pc directly connected to the modem, or a couple hanging off of a sw=
itch directly connected to the modem) and those who have a router (even if =
it's not NATing) in between and potentially many more devices connected beh=
ind it.

At least for the case with a router, the alternative is to use IPv6 Prefix =
Delegation and allow the downstream CPE router to handle the registration (=
be it ND or DHCP) of the devices within the local network. It doesn't elimi=
nate the problem of ND DoS, but it does abstract it from the ISP router. Un=
fortunately it probably pushes it onto a router that is even less capable o=
f handling the issue without dying, but that's still preferable to killing =
the ISP router and affecting many more customers at once.

Thanks,

Wes George



-----Original Message-----
From: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joe=
l M. Halpern
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 12:31 PM
To: Mikael Abrahamsson
Cc: ipv6@ietf.org
Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS

I asked our PMs about this after some earlier discussions, and for many
BRAS deployments of IPv6, this restriction is a natural side-effect of
normal and desired behavior.
I do not know what the feature name is as used in product.
(I worry more about what it does, not what it is called in the
marketting literature.  Sorry.)

Yours,
Joel

On 7/13/2011 12:07 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Jul 2011, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
>
>> For ISPs providing bridged residential services, the ISP normally
>> operates on the basis that it gets registration information from all
>> the devices in the home. Thus, it does not need to generate ND
>> solicitations.
>
> Is there some description of this behaviour somewhere, what would this
> feature be called that I can ask vendors if they have in their equipment?
>
> Just to be sure, we're now saying that reachability won't be had from
> the outside unless the internal device keeps itself "registered" with
> the ISP router.
>
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From christopher.morrow@gmail.com  Wed Jul 13 11:35:04 2011
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Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS
From: Christopher Morrow <christopher.morrow@gmail.com>
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On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 4:39 PM, Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> On Jul 12, 2011, at 4:48 AM, Philip Homburg wrote:
>
>> Occasionally the subject comes up: /64 (and SLAAC) is bad because it is
>> easy to DoS routers by getting to perform too much ND.
>
> I suppose the same might be true of ARP. Has it been observed in the wild?

same does happen with arp, yes... and yes, observed in several fields.

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Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS
From: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
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On Jul 13, 2011, at 01:00 , Philip Homburg wrote:
> 
> I'm not aware of any system today that in the presence of just SLAAC can
> figure out where the stateful firewall is hiding in the network and how to
> get it to open the port you need automatically (i.e. whenever a host allocate
> a passive socket).
> 
> If you want to go that route, then IMHO, there is a huge amount of work to be 
> done. Certainly to get it to work transparently for every possible protocol
> that runs on top of IPv6.

I don't believe there are any implementations, but I did propose a system to do this:

  <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-woodyatt-ald>

It provoked an interesting and illustrative discussion once people understood just what ubiquitous deployment of a protocol to do this would mean for Internet privacy.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, core os networking




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Subject: Re: Doubt in Router Advertisement Message
From: Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Thiruma valavan <rathiguru@hotmail.com>
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--20cf307c9b0cd1145e04a7fcff67
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hi Thiruma,

The packet capture looks good. I did not get the question however.

If there is a question on technology you can mail me, however if the
question is on an implementation we can take it offline.

Thanks,
Vishwas
On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 5:43 AM, Thiruma valavan <rathiguru@hotmail.com>wrote:

>  Vishwas,
>
> I am having one more doubt in IPv6 Fragmentation
>
> Router Interface MTU 1500, Host A wants to send a packet with 3,000 data
> bytes but MTU is 1500, so it needs to fragment the packet.
>
> As per RFC 2460, First Packet 40 bytes (IPv6 Header) + 8 bytes Fragment
> Header + 1452 Data = 1500
>
>             Second Packet 40 bytes (IPv6 Header) + 8 bytes Fragment Header
> + 1452 Data = 1500
>
>                    Third Packet     40 bytes (IPv6 Header) + 8 bytes
> Fragment Header +    96 Data =  1500
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
> Thiru
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 15:05:47 -0700
> From: vishwas.ietf@gmail.com
> To: rathiguru@hotmail.com; ipv6@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: Doubt in Router Advertisement Message
>
>  Hi Thiruma,
>
> From the specs it is clear that the MTU is optional. However if MTU sending
> is enabled it should be sent on change too.
>
> Sounds like a bug in the implementation to me.
>
> Thanks,
> Vishwas
>
>
>
> Sent from my Palm Pre on AT&T
>
> ------------------------------
> On Jul 9, 2011 2:51 AM, Thiruma valavan <rathiguru@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi IETF Group,
>
> While testing IPV6 Router Advertisement part, I noticed some behaviour that
> if I changed router interface MTU value, it won't send Router Advertisement
> message immediately instead of waiting to next interval time.
>
> Is that normal behaviour,
>
> Thanks & Regards,
> Thirumavalavan P
> Calsoflabs India Pvt Ltd,Bangalore
> ATLEN Group of Company
> Mob: +91 9790758035
>

--20cf307c9b0cd1145e04a7fcff67
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div>Hi Thiruma,</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>The packet capture looks good. I did not get the question however.</di=
v>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>If there is a question on technology you can mail me, however if the q=
uestion is on an implementation we can take it offline.</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>Vishwas<br></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 5:43 AM, Thiruma valavan=
 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rathiguru@hotmail.com">rathiguru@h=
otmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt" color=3D"#0f243e"><font fa=
ce=3D"Tahoma">Vishwas,<br></font></font>
<div>
<div style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><font face=3D"Verdana" color=3D"#0f243e"><br=
></font></div>
<div style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><font face=3D"Verdana" color=3D"#0f243e">I a=
m having one more doubt in IPv6 Fragmentation=A0<br></font></div>
<div style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><font face=3D"Verdana" color=3D"#0f243e"><br=
></font></div>
<div style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><font face=3D"Verdana" color=3D"#0f243e">Rou=
ter Interface MTU 1500, Host A wants to send a packet with 3,000 data bytes=
 but MTU is 1500, so it needs to fragment the packet.</font></div>
<div style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><font face=3D"Verdana" color=3D"#0f243e"><br=
></font></div>
<div style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><font face=3D"Verdana" color=3D"#0f243e">As =
per RFC 2460, First Packet 40 bytes (IPv6 Header) + 8 bytes Fragment Header=
 + 1452 Data =3D 1500 =A0<br></font></div>
<div style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><font face=3D"Verdana" color=3D"#0f243e"><br=
></font></div>
<div style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><font face=3D"Verdana" color=3D"#0f243e"><sp=
an></span>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Second Packet=A0</font><span style=3D"COL=
OR: rgb(15,36,62); FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">40 bytes (IPv6 Header) + 8 bytes F=
ragment Header + 1452 Data =3D 1500 =A0</span></div>

<div style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><span style=3D"COLOR: rgb(15,36,62); FONT-FA=
MILY: Verdana"><br></span></div>
<div style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><span style=3D"COLOR: rgb(15,36,62); FONT-FA=
MILY: Verdana">=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Third Packet =A0 =A0=
=A0</span><span style=3D"COLOR: rgb(15,36,62); FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">40 byt=
es (IPv6 Header) + 8 bytes Fragment Header + =A0 =A096 Data =3D =A01500=A0<=
/span></div>

<div style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><span style=3D"COLOR: rgb(15,36,62); FONT-FA=
MILY: Verdana"><br></span></div>
<div style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><span style=3D"COLOR: rgb(15,36,62); FONT-FA=
MILY: Verdana">=A0</span></div>
<div style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; TEXT-INDENT: 0px! important"><font style=3D"=
TEXT-INDENT: 0px! important" face=3D"Verdana" color=3D"#0f243e"><br style=
=3D"TEXT-INDENT: 0px! important"></font></div>
<div style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; TEXT-INDENT: 0px! important"><font style=3D"=
TEXT-INDENT: 0px! important" face=3D"Verdana" color=3D"#0f243e"><br></font>=
</div>
<div style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; TEXT-INDENT: 0px! important"><font style=3D"=
TEXT-INDENT: 0px! important" face=3D"Verdana" color=3D"#0f243e"><br></font>=
</div>
<div style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; TEXT-INDENT: 0px! important"><font style=3D"=
TEXT-INDENT: 0px! important" face=3D"Verdana" color=3D"#0f243e"><br style=
=3D"TEXT-INDENT: 0px! important"></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Verdana"><br></font></div>
<div><font style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt" face=3D"Verdana" size=3D"2">Thanks,<br=
><font face=3D"Tahoma">Thiru</font></font>=20
<div style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
<div>=A0<br></div></div><br><br>
<div style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
<div class=3D"im">
<hr>
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 15:05:47 -0700<br>From: <a href=3D"mailto:vishwas.iet=
f@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">vishwas.ietf@gmail.com</a><br>To: <a href=3D=
"mailto:rathiguru@hotmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rathiguru@hotmail.com</a>;=
 <a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: Doubt in Router Advertisement Message<br><br></div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D"h5">Hi Thiruma,<br><br>From the specs it is clear that the MT=
U is optional. However if MTU sending is enabled it should be sent on chang=
e too.<br><br>Sounds like a bug in the implementation to me.<br><br>Thanks,=
<br>
Vishwas<br><br><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Prelude, Verdana, san-serif"><br=
><br></span><span>
<div style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12px; COLOR: #999999; FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-ser=
if">Sent from my Palm Pre on AT&amp;T</div><br></span><span style=3D"COLOR:=
 navy; FONT-FAMILY: Prelude, Verdana, san-serif">
<hr style=3D"WIDTH: 75%" align=3D"left">
On Jul 9, 2011 2:51 AM, Thiruma valavan &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rathiguru@hot=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank">rathiguru@hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote: <br><br>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma" face=3D"Verdana">Hi IE=
TF Group,<br></font>
<div><font face=3D"Verdana"><br></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Verdana">While testing IPV6 Router Advertisement part, I=
 noticed some behaviour that if I changed router interface MTU value, it wo=
n&#39;t send Router Advertisement message immediately instead of waiting to=
 next interval time.<br>
</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Verdana"><br></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Verdana">Is that normal behaviour,=A0</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Verdana"><br></font><font face=3D"Tahoma">Thanks &amp; R=
egards,</font><br><font face=3D"Tahoma">Thirumavalavan P</font>=20
<div style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Calsoflabs India Pvt Ltd,Bangalore</div>
<div style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">ATLEN Group of Company</div>
<div style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Mob: <a href=3D"tel:%2B91%209790758035" =
target=3D"_blank" value=3D"+919790758035">+91 9790758035</a> <br></div></di=
v></div></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div=
><br>

--20cf307c9b0cd1145e04a7fcff67--

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Subject: Re: Doubt in Router Advertisement Message
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--bcaec547c4cf1ef4ce04a7fd08b5
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Hi Anupam,

You are right the RFC allows the optional MTU update. However I would think
that if an MTU is sent earlier, it should be resent on MTU change/ update.

Thanks,
Vishwas
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 1:53 AM, Anupam Kapoor <akapoor@cisco.com> wrote:

> "Vishwas Manral" <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com> writes:
>
> ,----
> | > From the specs it is clear that the MTU is optional. However if MTU
> | > sending is enabled it should be sent on change too.
> | >
> | > Sounds like a bug in the implementation to me.
> `----
> from thiruma's mail it seems that RA's are not sent *immediately* after
> changing mtu values. from rfc, as vishwas has pointed out, sending mtu
> is optional.
>
> following snippet from rfc-4861, sec: 6.2.4
>
>   The information contained in Router Advertisements may change through
>   actions of system management.  For instance, the lifetime of
>   advertised prefixes may change, new prefixes could be added, a router
>   could cease to be a router (i.e., switch from being a router to being
>   a host), etc.  In such cases, the router MAY transmit up to
>   MAX_INITIAL_RTR_ADVERTISEMENTS unsolicited advertisements, using the
>   same rules as when an interface becomes an advertising interface.
>
>
> from above, to me at least, it seems that, the behavior that you see
> doesn't point to a flawed implementation.
>
> kind regards
> anupam
>

--bcaec547c4cf1ef4ce04a7fd08b5
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div>Hi Anupam,</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>You are right the RFC allows the optional MTU update. However I would =
think that if an MTU is sent earlier, it should be resent on MTU change/ up=
date.</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>Vishwas<br></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 1:53 AM, Anupam Kapoor <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:akapoor@cisco.com">akapoor@cisco.com=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">&quot;Vishwas Manral&quot; &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:vishwas.ietf@gmail.com">vishwas.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wri=
tes:<br>
<br>,----<br>
<div class=3D"im">| &gt; From the specs it is clear that the MTU is optiona=
l. However if MTU<br>| &gt; sending is enabled it should be sent on change =
too.<br>| &gt;<br>| &gt; Sounds like a bug in the implementation to me.<br>
</div>`----<br>from thiruma&#39;s mail it seems that RA&#39;s are not sent =
*immediately* after<br>changing mtu values. from rfc, as vishwas has pointe=
d out, sending mtu<br>is optional.<br><br>following snippet from rfc-4861, =
sec: 6.2.4<br>
<br>=A0 The information contained in Router Advertisements may change throu=
gh<br>=A0 actions of system management. =A0For instance, the lifetime of<br=
>=A0 advertised prefixes may change, new prefixes could be added, a router<=
br>=A0 could cease to be a router (i.e., switch from being a router to bein=
g<br>
=A0 a host), etc. =A0In such cases, the router MAY transmit up to<br>=A0 MA=
X_INITIAL_RTR_ADVERTISEMENTS unsolicited advertisements, using the<br>=A0 s=
ame rules as when an interface becomes an advertising interface.<br><br><br=
>from above, to me at least, it seems that, the behavior that you see<br>
doesn&#39;t point to a flawed implementation.<br><br>kind regards<br><font =
color=3D"#888888">anupam<br></font></blockquote></div><br>

--bcaec547c4cf1ef4ce04a7fd08b5--

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From: Anupam Kapoor <akapoor@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: Doubt in Router Advertisement Message
References: <4e18d0c5.2727440a.7a71.2906@mx.google.com> <878vs33mns.fsf@cisco.com> <CAOyVPHTDmafv0R6Kr9t_123o5=AViA-FpLBqgEVCyj9UR87cWg@mail.gmail.com>
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Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com> writes:

,----
| > You are right the RFC allows the optional MTU update. However I would
| > think that if an MTU is sent earlier, it should be resent on MTU
| > change/ update.
`----
thanks for confirming. fundamental question imho is *when* should the
update be sent, and *not* if...

kind regards
anupam

From joelja@bogus.com  Thu Jul 14 20:00:37 2011
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On Jul 13, 2011, at 9:51 AM, RJ Atkinson wrote:

> On Weds 13 July 2011 at 11:54:08 -0400, Joel Halpern wrote:
>> There appear to be several different cases, which can be addressed 
>> by different reasonable mechanisms (not firewalls, and not lengthening
>> the subnet prefix.)
>> 
>> For ISPs, I would assume the primary concern is routers connecting 
>> to subnets used to provide services. A non-dynamic approach to ND
>> can address that.
>> 
>> For ISPs providing bridged residential services, the ISP normally 
>> operates on the basis that it gets registration information 
>> from all the devices in the home.  Thus, it does not need
>> to generate ND solicitations.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> I do think it would be useful to have an informational document
> that describes the issue, describes the several cases, and outlines 
> some reasonable mechanisms (possibly separate mechanisms for each case),
> both for the benefit of network operations folks and also for
> the benefit of equipment suppliers.

we discussed some possible (but certainly incomplete) mitigations in:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gashinsky-v6nd-enhance-00

but we also proposed changes to v6nd so that's why we brought it to 6man

> Perhaps I am confused, but such a document sounds more like an IPv6 Ops WG 
> item than an IPv6 WG item.  So I'm wondering whether this thread belongs 
> over there rather than here.

possibly, probably it straddles both groups.

> Yours,
> 
> Ran
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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> 


From washam.fan@gmail.com  Thu Jul 14 20:01:32 2011
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Subject: Is it legal to set IID to 0?
From: Washam Fan <washam.fan@gmail.com>
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Hi,

I don't know if it is legal when I manually set a unicast address with
IID=0. Linux allows that and RFC4291 doesn't explicitly prohibit that.
I assume it is legal, Right?

THanks in advance.
washam

From ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org  Thu Jul 14 20:19:05 2011
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From: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
To: Washam Fan <washam.fan@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Is it legal to set IID to 0?
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Hi,

On Fri, 15 Jul 2011 11:01:30 +0800
Washam Fan <washam.fan@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I don't know if it is legal when I manually set a unicast address with
> IID=0. Linux allows that and RFC4291 doesn't explicitly prohibit that.
> I assume it is legal, Right?
> 

That's the subnet router anycast address, so you probably shouldn't use
it without the anycast flag being set when you assign it. Using it as a
conventional unicast address might make it interact
unexpectedly/badly with things like duplicate address detection. 

See RFC5453, "Reserved IPv6 Interface Identifiers".


Regards,
mark.

From washam.fan@gmail.com  Thu Jul 14 22:38:29 2011
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Subject: Re: Is it legal to set IID to 0?
From: Washam Fan <washam.fan@gmail.com>
To: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
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Thanks Mark,
I was not aware of that before.
Thanks again,
washam

2011/7/15 Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>:
> Hi,
>
> On Fri, 15 Jul 2011 11:01:30 +0800
> Washam Fan <washam.fan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I don't know if it is legal when I manually set a unicast address with
>> IID=0. Linux allows that and RFC4291 doesn't explicitly prohibit that.
>> I assume it is legal, Right?
>>
>
> That's the subnet router anycast address, so you probably shouldn't use
> it without the anycast flag being set when you assign it. Using it as a
> conventional unicast address might make it interact
> unexpectedly/badly with things like duplicate address detection.
>
> See RFC5453, "Reserved IPv6 Interface Identifiers".
>
>
> Regards,
> mark.
>

From washam.fan@gmail.com  Fri Jul 15 00:03:51 2011
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Subject: unicast address with non 64 bit prefix
From: Washam Fan <washam.fan@gmail.com>
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Hi,

I quoted this paragraph from RFC4291:

   For all unicast addresses, except those that start with the binary
   value 000, Interface IDs are required to be 64 bits long and to be
   constructed in Modified EUI-64 format.

But I am not sure how to interpret the text in  a correct way.

If I assign an ordinary unicast address (except reserved anycast
addresses mentioned in RFC5453) to an interface and the address
doesn't start with 000, MUST the prefix be 64 bits? MUST the IID be
constructed in Modified EUI-64 format?

We are providing WebUI for our customer to manually assign IPv6
addresses, we want to do hygiene check before the actual move.

Thanks in advance
washam

From kerlyn2001@gmail.com  Fri Jul 15 04:27:02 2011
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Subject: Re: unicast address with non 64 bit prefix
From: Kerry Lynn <kerlyn@ieee.org>
To: Washam Fan <washam.fan@gmail.com>
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--90e6ba1eff0c8d523904a819ed17
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See also section 2.5.4 of RFC 4291:
"All Global Unicast addresses other than those that start with binary
 000 have a 64-bit interface ID field (i.e., n + m = 64), formatted as
 described in Section 2.5.1."

So I'd say the answer is the IID MUST be 64 bits long, and MUST
satisfy the properties of uniqueness discussed in 2.5.1 (and set the
"u" bit accordingly).  An IID in modified EUI-64 format satisfies these
requirements, but in general IIDs are formed according to rules specified
by the particular "IP over ..." RFC, e.g. RFC 4944.  For example, an
actual EUI-64 may be preferred for interfaces that have them.
Finally, those with privacy concerns may elect methods for creating
IIDs that mask the underlying hardware identifier; see RFC 3041.

HTH, -K-


On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 3:03 AM, Washam Fan <washam.fan@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I quoted this paragraph from RFC4291:
>
>   For all unicast addresses, except those that start with the binary
>   value 000, Interface IDs are required to be 64 bits long and to be
>   constructed in Modified EUI-64 format.
>
> But I am not sure how to interpret the text in  a correct way.
>
> If I assign an ordinary unicast address (except reserved anycast
> addresses mentioned in RFC5453) to an interface and the address
> doesn't start with 000, MUST the prefix be 64 bits? MUST the IID be
> constructed in Modified EUI-64 format?
>
> We are providing WebUI for our customer to manually assign IPv6
> addresses, we want to do hygiene check before the actual move.
>
> Thanks in advance
> washam
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>

--90e6ba1eff0c8d523904a819ed17
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

See also section 2.5.4 of RFC 4291:<div>&quot;All Global Unicast addresses =
other than those that start with binary</div><div>=A0000 have a 64-bit inte=
rface ID field (i.e., n + m =3D 64), formatted as</div><div>=A0described in=
 Section 2.5.1.&quot;<br>
<div><br></div><div>So I&#39;d say the answer is the IID MUST be 64 bits lo=
ng, and MUST</div><div>satisfy=A0the properties of uniqueness discussed in =
2.5.1 (and set the</div><div>&quot;u&quot;=A0bit accordingly). =A0An IID in=
 modified EUI-64 format satisfies these</div>
<div>requirements, but in general IIDs are formed according to rules specif=
ied</div><div>by the particular &quot;IP over ...&quot; RFC, e.g. RFC 4944.=
 =A0For example, an</div><div>actual EUI-64 may be preferred for interfaces=
 that have them.</div>
<div>Finally,=A0those with privacy concerns may elect methods for creating<=
/div><div>IIDs=A0that mask the underlying hardware identifier; see RFC 3041=
.</div><div><br></div><div>HTH, -K-</div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><b=
r>
</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fr=
i, Jul 15, 2011 at 3:03 AM, Washam Fan <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:washam.fan@gmail.com">washam.fan@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Hi,<br>
<br>
I quoted this paragraph from RFC4291:<br>
<br>
 =A0 For all unicast addresses, except those that start with the binary<br>
 =A0 value 000, Interface IDs are required to be 64 bits long and to be<br>
 =A0 constructed in Modified EUI-64 format.<br>
<br>
But I am not sure how to interpret the text in =A0a correct way.<br>
<br>
If I assign an ordinary unicast address (except reserved anycast<br>
addresses mentioned in RFC5453) to an interface and the address<br>
doesn&#39;t start with 000, MUST the prefix be 64 bits? MUST the IID be<br>
constructed in Modified EUI-64 format?<br>
<br>
We are providing WebUI for our customer to manually assign IPv6<br>
addresses, we want to do hygiene check before the actual move.<br>
<br>
Thanks in advance<br>
washam<br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br>
Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i=
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</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--90e6ba1eff0c8d523904a819ed17--

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Subject: Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns ?
From: RJ Atkinson <rja.lists@gmail.com>
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On 14  Jul 2011, at 23:00 , Joel Jaeggli wrote:
> On Jul 13, 2011, at 9:51 AM, RJ Atkinson wrote:
>=20
>> On Weds 13 July 2011 at 11:54:08 -0400, Joel Halpern wrote:
>>> There appear to be several different cases, which can be addressed=20=

>>> by different reasonable mechanisms (not firewalls, and not =
lengthening
>>> the subnet prefix.)
>>>=20
>>> For ISPs, I would assume the primary concern is routers connecting=20=

>>> to subnets used to provide services. A non-dynamic approach to ND
>>> can address that.
>>>=20
>>> For ISPs providing bridged residential services, the ISP normally=20
>>> operates on the basis that it gets registration information=20
>>> from all the devices in the home.  Thus, it does not need
>>> to generate ND solicitations.
>>=20
>> Agreed.
>>=20
>> I do think it would be useful to have an informational document
>> that describes the issue, describes the several cases, and outlines=20=

>> some reasonable mechanisms (possibly separate mechanisms for each =
case),
>> both for the benefit of network operations folks and also for
>> the benefit of equipment suppliers.
>=20
> we discussed some possible (but certainly incomplete) mitigations in:
>=20
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gashinsky-v6nd-enhance-00
>=20
> but we also proposed changes to v6nd so that's why we brought it to =
6man
>=20
>> Perhaps I am confused, but such a document sounds more like an IPv6 =
Ops WG=20
>> item than an IPv6 WG item.  So I'm wondering whether this thread =
belongs=20
>> over there rather than here.
>=20
> possibly, probably it straddles both groups.

(First, a broad apology for cross-posting this note, which is in a
thread that originated on the IPv6 WG mailing list.  I encourage
authors of follow-up notes to consider whether their follow-up=20
might belong only on 1 of these 2 lists.  WG Chair guidance=20
about proper place for follow-up discussion would also be welcome.  :-)


I apologise for being unclear.  The document I was trying to propose
in the quoted text above was NOT about protocol changes, but instead
would focus on extant mitigations -- so the document I was proposing
would more obviously seem to fit in IPv6 Ops WG.


To some extent, I would prefer an approach where IPv6 Ops would work
on that informational document (threats/concerns, operational use cases,
existing mitigations that could be deployed) first.  Then, if there
were use cases not adequately covered by the material in that (proposed)
IPv6 Ops WG document, the IPv6 WG could use that IPv6 Ops WG document
to examine potential protocol specification changes on a much more=20
informed basis.


I am concerned that the current document is inadvertently=20
"putting the cart in front of the horse" by going straight=20
to the IPv6 WG, without starting with an informational=20
"issues and existing-mitigations" type document over in the=20
IPv6 Ops WG.  Operator input on this topic would be strongly=20
beneficial since this is fundamentally an operations issue.


I'm also concerned that most of the operational folks are active=20
in the IPv6 Ops WG , while only some of those folks are active=20
in IPv6 WG.  So it would seem better to start working these
concerns over there and later, after the IPv6 Ops WG has reached
some conclusions about the issues/existing mitigations,
possibly bring that output to the IPv6 WG to drive discussion
of potential protocol specification changes in a more informed
way than we seem to be achieving just now.  Perhaps I am=20
more nearly an outlier in my concern that we not start with
protocol modification discussions and instead start with a
separate document covering the concerns/issues, use cases,
and existing/known mitigations (possibly organised by use case).


Yours,

Ran Atkinson





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Subject: Re: Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns ? 
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Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 19:35:01 +0200
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In your letter dated Fri, 15 Jul 2011 09:31:12 -0400 you wrote:
>To some extent, I would prefer an approach where IPv6 Ops would work
>on that informational document (threats/concerns, operational use cases,
>existing mitigations that could be deployed) first.  Then, if there
>were use cases not adequately covered by the material in that (proposed)
>IPv6 Ops WG document, the IPv6 WG could use that IPv6 Ops WG document
>to examine potential protocol specification changes on a much more 
>informed basis.

I could be wrong, but the impression I got from the various ops lists is that
the way you deal with this attack is to avoid using RFC-4862 and/or RFC-4861.

For example:
- Just use link local on a link between two routers
- Configure a much longer prefix (/120)
- Have /128s on separate interfaces
- Use a static neighbor cache and then disable ND
- (From draft-gashinsky-v6nd-enhance) Have hosts inject /128s 

And there is also
- Use a statefull firewall (and break end-to-end connectivity).

draft-gashinsky-v6nd-enhance give a nice overview, but more importantly
already tries to modify RFC-4861.

If v6ops first wants to spend time writing a requirements document, then
that's fine with me.

But to me it seems more productive to explore the design space, write an
informational document about that and then solicit feedback from v6ops on
whether there are any options that seem to make some kind of sense in their
environment.

>Operator input on this topic would be strongly 
>beneficial since this is fundamentally an operations issue.

I would classify a protocol that is at the heart of IPv6 and that is subject
of a relatively low-tech DoS as a protocol problem and not as an ops problem.
(Of course, it remains an ops problem until the protocol is fixed)



From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Fri Jul 15 15:25:31 2011
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To: Washam Fan <washam.fan@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: unicast address with non 64 bit prefix
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The authors of RFC 4291 chose not to use the upper case normative
keyword convention defined in RFC 2119. Therefore, 'required' means
what in means in plain English (i.e. REQUIRED in RFC2119ish).

   Brian

On 2011-07-15 19:03, Washam Fan wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I quoted this paragraph from RFC4291:
> 
>    For all unicast addresses, except those that start with the binary
>    value 000, Interface IDs are required to be 64 bits long and to be
>    constructed in Modified EUI-64 format.
> 
> But I am not sure how to interpret the text in  a correct way.
> 
> If I assign an ordinary unicast address (except reserved anycast
> addresses mentioned in RFC5453) to an interface and the address
> doesn't start with 000, MUST the prefix be 64 bits? MUST the IID be
> constructed in Modified EUI-64 format?
> 
> We are providing WebUI for our customer to manually assign IPv6
> addresses, we want to do hygiene check before the actual move.
> 
> Thanks in advance
> washam
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 

From kerlyn2001@gmail.com  Fri Jul 15 17:57:56 2011
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Subject: Re: unicast address with non 64 bit prefix
From: Kerry Lynn <kerlyn@ieee.org>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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--90e6ba1eff0c9c194404a82541c4
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Brian, you're quite right.  I had in mind only one particular class of IID.

Washam, see Appendix A of RFC 4291 regarding modified EUI-64 IIDs
with "u"=0.  Also, RFC 3041 has been obsoleted; see RFC 4941 and
its errata if privacy issues apply in your situation.

-K-


On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 6:25 PM, Brian E Carpenter <
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

> The authors of RFC 4291 chose not to use the upper case normative
> keyword convention defined in RFC 2119. Therefore, 'required' means
> what in means in plain English (i.e. REQUIRED in RFC2119ish).
>
>   Brian
>
> On 2011-07-15 19:03, Washam Fan wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I quoted this paragraph from RFC4291:
> >
> >    For all unicast addresses, except those that start with the binary
> >    value 000, Interface IDs are required to be 64 bits long and to be
> >    constructed in Modified EUI-64 format.
> >
> > But I am not sure how to interpret the text in  a correct way.
> >
> > If I assign an ordinary unicast address (except reserved anycast
> > addresses mentioned in RFC5453) to an interface and the address
> > doesn't start with 000, MUST the prefix be 64 bits? MUST the IID be
> > constructed in Modified EUI-64 format?
> >
> > We are providing WebUI for our customer to manually assign IPv6
> > addresses, we want to do hygiene check before the actual move.
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> > washam
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> > ipv6@ietf.org
> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>

--90e6ba1eff0c9c194404a82541c4
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Brian, you&#39;re quite right. =A0I had in mind only one particular class o=
f IID.<div><br></div><div>Washam, see Appendix A of RFC 4291 regarding modi=
fied EUI-64 IIDs</div><div>with &quot;u&quot;=3D0. =A0Also, RFC 3041 has be=
en obsoleted; see RFC 4941 and</div>

<div>its errata if privacy issues apply in your situation.</div><div><br></=
div><div>-K-<br><br></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 1=
5, 2011 at 6:25 PM, Brian E Carpenter <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.c=
om</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">The authors of RFC 4291 chose not to use the=
 upper case normative<br>
keyword convention defined in RFC 2119. Therefore, &#39;required&#39; means=
<br>
what in means in plain English (i.e. REQUIRED in RFC2119ish).<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"><br>
 =A0 Brian<br>
</font><div><div></div><div><br>
On 2011-07-15 19:03, Washam Fan wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I quoted this paragraph from RFC4291:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0For all unicast addresses, except those that start with the bin=
ary<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0value 000, Interface IDs are required to be 64 bits long and to=
 be<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0constructed in Modified EUI-64 format.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; But I am not sure how to interpret the text in =A0a correct way.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; If I assign an ordinary unicast address (except reserved anycast<br>
&gt; addresses mentioned in RFC5453) to an interface and the address<br>
&gt; doesn&#39;t start with 000, MUST the prefix be 64 bits? MUST the IID b=
e<br>
&gt; constructed in Modified EUI-64 format?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; We are providing WebUI for our customer to manually assign IPv6<br>
&gt; addresses, we want to do hygiene check before the actual move.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks in advance<br>
&gt; washam<br>
&gt; --------------------------------------------------------------------<b=
r>
&gt; IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
&gt; Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/ipv6" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6</a><=
br>
&gt; --------------------------------------------------------------------<b=
r>
&gt;<br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br>
Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i=
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--90e6ba1eff0c9c194404a82541c4--

From washam.fan@gmail.com  Sat Jul 16 09:02:57 2011
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Subject: Re: unicast address with non 64 bit prefix
From: Washam Fan <washam.fan@gmail.com>
To: Kerry Lynn <kerlyn@ieee.org>
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THanks Kerry and Brian,

Now we provide 3 parameters to our customers to configure a IPv6
address manually: 128bit address, subnet prefix and default gateway
(optional, if it is provided, it should be within the same subnet with
the 128bit address). Should we set subnet prefix to a fixed value 64
if the 128bit address starts with 001-111?
(ipv6 is a new feature in our appliance, we don't have much
experiences about it)
Thanks,
washam
PS: should we allow our customer configure 128bit address starting
with 000 in the first place?


2011/7/16 Kerry Lynn <kerlyn@ieee.org>:
> Brian, you're quite right. =A0I had in mind only one particular class of =
IID.
> Washam, see Appendix A of RFC 4291 regarding modified EUI-64 IIDs
> with "u"=3D0. =A0Also, RFC 3041 has been obsoleted; see RFC 4941 and
> its errata if privacy issues apply in your situation.
> -K-
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 6:25 PM, Brian E Carpenter
> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The authors of RFC 4291 chose not to use the upper case normative
>> keyword convention defined in RFC 2119. Therefore, 'required' means
>> what in means in plain English (i.e. REQUIRED in RFC2119ish).
>>
>> =A0 Brian
>>
>> On 2011-07-15 19:03, Washam Fan wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > I quoted this paragraph from RFC4291:
>> >
>> > =A0 =A0For all unicast addresses, except those that start with the bin=
ary
>> > =A0 =A0value 000, Interface IDs are required to be 64 bits long and to=
 be
>> > =A0 =A0constructed in Modified EUI-64 format.
>> >
>> > But I am not sure how to interpret the text in =A0a correct way.
>> >
>> > If I assign an ordinary unicast address (except reserved anycast
>> > addresses mentioned in RFC5453) to an interface and the address
>> > doesn't start with 000, MUST the prefix be 64 bits? MUST the IID be
>> > constructed in Modified EUI-64 format?
>> >
>> > We are providing WebUI for our customer to manually assign IPv6
>> > addresses, we want to do hygiene check before the actual move.
>> >
>> > Thanks in advance
>> > washam
>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> > ipv6@ietf.org
>> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> ipv6@ietf.org
>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

From fred@cisco.com  Sat Jul 16 10:38:57 2011
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns ?
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On Jul 15, 2011, at 6:31 AM, RJ Atkinson wrote:

> I apologise for being unclear.  The document I was trying to propose =
in the quoted text above was NOT about protocol changes, but instead =
would focus on extant mitigations -- so the document I was proposing =
would more obviously seem to fit in IPv6 Ops WG.

Sounds reasonable to me.

One general consideration in this note. In addition to the fact of =
multiple prefixes on a LAN, IPv6 Privacy Addresses (RFC 4491) are a case =
in which a single interface (and therefore MAC address) might =
legitimately have multiple addresses within the same prefix. Unless I am =
mistaken, Windows by default creates an address daily but keeps each =
such address active for a week, so any case in which Windows would use =
one IPv4 address, at any given time it will consider seven IPv6 =
addresses to be active. In addition, virtual machines in data centers =
amplify address use; one could imagine the address of a virtual machine =
serving a single user or service to be the counterpart of a =
locator+identifier in the sense that RFC 1992 uses the terms. So a part =
of the advice to implementers is to expect a much larger number of =
active addresses at any given time to be normal.

There are of course ways to simplify that in implementation. In a =
host/router's neighbor tables, it would make sense to keep a "used" =
flag. At least for routers (which normally have most of the hosts in a =
subnet as neighbors most of the time), it is common to periodically =
ARP/ND each address unicast and cull the table if it fails to respond =
(rather than simply timing the address out). One could modify that =
slightly by setting a flag in the neighbor entry when a datagram is sent =
to the address, and on the periodic sweep culling addresses that were =
not used and refreshing addresses that have been used.

There is also a place for LRU-style behavior. If the neighbor table is =
finite in size, keep an LRU list, moving used and new entries to the =
tail and simply overwriting entries from the front when needed. If there =
is no hard bound on the neighbor table besides the size of memory, one =
could imagine sweeping at a rate comparable to its size - every mumble =
time units culling/refreshing a percentage of the table.=20

Where I worry is the concept of a hard limit on address count per MAC =
address, due to the existence of virtual hosts. Speaking as a vendor of =
the equipment we're concerned about here, I would rather provide an =
option that enables the administrator to buy more memory if that's =
what's needed than force him into a situation that might be suboptimal =
for his network.=20=

From fred@cisco.com  Sat Jul 16 10:42:06 2011
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Subject: Re: Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns ? 
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On Jul 15, 2011, at 10:35 AM, Philip Homburg wrote:

> I could be wrong, but the impression I got from the various ops lists =
is that
> the way you deal with this attack is to avoid using RFC-4862 and/or =
RFC-4861.

I can imagine using DHCPv6 instead of SLAAC (RFC 4862 and the RS/RA =
component of RFC 4861). The counterpart to ARP is the NS/NA component of =
RFC 4861; I think you might find that helpful to keep.

That said, I do think you may find SLAAC more scalable than DHCPv6 =
address allocation. At least that's why it was developed.=

From ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org  Sat Jul 16 19:02:45 2011
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From: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
To: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns ?
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On Sat, 16 Jul 2011 10:38:45 -0700
Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com> wrote:

> 
> On Jul 15, 2011, at 6:31 AM, RJ Atkinson wrote:
> 
> > I apologise for being unclear.  The document I was trying to propose in the quoted text above was NOT about protocol changes, but instead would focus on extant mitigations -- so the document I was proposing would more obviously seem to fit in IPv6 Ops WG.
> 
> Sounds reasonable to me.
> 
<snip>
> 
> Where I worry is the concept of a hard limit on address count per MAC address, due to the existence of virtual hosts. Speaking as a vendor of the equipment we're concerned about here, I would rather provide an option that enables the administrator to buy more memory if that's what's needed than force him into a situation that might be suboptimal for his network. 


The quite novel technique of allocation transient addresses to
applications/processes to assist with firewalling also takes advantage
of IPv6's large address space and that hosts can have multiple
addresses at once. It'd be a shame to loose the opportunity to do that
or similar innovative things with the large IPv6 address space -

"Transient addressing for related processes: Improved firewalling by
using IPv6 and multiple addresses per host", Peter M. Gleitz and Steven
M. Bellovin

https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/papers/tarp.pdf



___________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

From washam.fan@gmail.com  Sat Jul 16 19:45:42 2011
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Subject: Re: unicast address with non 64 bit prefix
From: Washam Fan <washam.fan@gmail.com>
To: Kerry Lynn <kerlyn@ieee.org>
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Hi Kerry,

Yes, they can be derived from PIO. But is there any possibility
customers manually set subnet prefix?

Now, we disable SLAAC on the appliance (due to it provides important
services like web proxy/cache, web filtering, traffic monitoring) and
use the 3 parameters to configure IPv6 addresses.
#ip -6 addr add <host-addr>/<prefix-len> dev eth0
#ip -6 route add default via <gw-addr>

in our current design, the customer is allowed to set prefix-len to
non-64 value like 65. But according to discussions in this thread, it
seems to me we SHOULD NOT allow our customers to set prefix-len to
non-64 value unless they assign an address starting with 000.(Ask
again, should we allow our customers to assign an address starting
with 000 in first place?)

Are you saying we should only allow customers to set IID. let
prefix-len and gw-addr derived from ND interactions?

As I stated before, we are adding ipv6 feature to our product, we
don't expect ipv6 will be used by majority of our customers ( IPv6 is
disable by default on our products). But we want to do the right thing
at the begining.

THanks,
washam
2011/7/17 Kerry Lynn <kerlyn@ieee.org>:
> The subnet prefix generally comes from the router on the link
> via Router Advertisements (e.g., Google radvd). =A0It's not
> something the customer needs to set.
> -K-
>
> On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 12:02 PM, Washam Fan <washam.fan@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>>
>> THanks Kerry and Brian,
>>
>> Now we provide 3 parameters to our customers to configure a IPv6
>> address manually: 128bit address, subnet prefix and default gateway
>> (optional, if it is provided, it should be within the same subnet with
>> the 128bit address). Should we set subnet prefix to a fixed value 64
>> if the 128bit address starts with 001-111?
>> (ipv6 is a new feature in our appliance, we don't have much
>> experiences about it)
>> Thanks,
>> washam
>> PS: should we allow our customer configure 128bit address starting
>> with 000 in the first place?
>>
>>
>> 2011/7/16 Kerry Lynn <kerlyn@ieee.org>:
>> > Brian, you're quite right. =A0I had in mind only one particular class =
of
>> > IID.
>> > Washam, see Appendix A of RFC 4291 regarding modified EUI-64 IIDs
>> > with "u"=3D0. =A0Also, RFC 3041 has been obsoleted; see RFC 4941 and
>> > its errata if privacy issues apply in your situation.
>> > -K-
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 6:25 PM, Brian E Carpenter
>> > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> The authors of RFC 4291 chose not to use the upper case normative
>> >> keyword convention defined in RFC 2119. Therefore, 'required' means
>> >> what in means in plain English (i.e. REQUIRED in RFC2119ish).
>> >>
>> >> =A0 Brian
>> >>
>> >> On 2011-07-15 19:03, Washam Fan wrote:
>> >> > Hi,
>> >> >
>> >> > I quoted this paragraph from RFC4291:
>> >> >
>> >> > =A0 =A0For all unicast addresses, except those that start with the =
binary
>> >> > =A0 =A0value 000, Interface IDs are required to be 64 bits long and=
 to be
>> >> > =A0 =A0constructed in Modified EUI-64 format.
>> >> >
>> >> > But I am not sure how to interpret the text in =A0a correct way.
>> >> >
>> >> > If I assign an ordinary unicast address (except reserved anycast
>> >> > addresses mentioned in RFC5453) to an interface and the address
>> >> > doesn't start with 000, MUST the prefix be 64 bits? MUST the IID be
>> >> > constructed in Modified EUI-64 format?
>> >> >
>> >> > We are providing WebUI for our customer to manually assign IPv6
>> >> > addresses, we want to do hygiene check before the actual move.
>> >> >
>> >> > Thanks in advance
>> >> > washam
>> >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>> >> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> >> > ipv6@ietf.org
>> >> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>> >> >
>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> >> ipv6@ietf.org
>> >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>
>

From kauer@biplane.com.au  Sat Jul 16 20:35:42 2011
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Subject: Re: unicast address with non 64 bit prefix
From: Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au>
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On Sun, 2011-07-17 at 10:45 +0800, Washam Fan wrote:
> in our current design, the customer is allowed to set prefix-len to
> non-64 value like 65. But according to discussions in this thread, it
> seems to me we SHOULD NOT allow our customers to set prefix-len to
> non-64 value unless they assign an address starting with 000.(Ask
> again, should we allow our customers to assign an address starting
> with 000 in first place?)

I suggest either a warning/confirm if they use a non-64-bit IID ("You
have just configured a non-standard interface ID! Proceed?") or
alternatively have a checkbox somewhere "allow non-64-bit (non-standard)
interface IDs".

Regards, K.

--=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)

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From pch-b2B3A6689@u-1.phicoh.com  Sun Jul 17 01:54:37 2011
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To: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns ? 
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In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 17 Jul 2011 11:32:37 +0930 ." <20110717113237.0137abcd@opy.nosense.org> 
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In your letter dated Sun, 17 Jul 2011 11:32:37 +0930 you wrote:
>The quite novel technique of allocation transient addresses to
>applications/processes to assist with firewalling also takes advantage
>of IPv6's large address space and that hosts can have multiple
>addresses at once. It'd be a shame to loose the opportunity to do that
>or similar innovative things with the large IPv6 address space -

A more scalable approach is to simply route a /96 to the host. There paper
already suggests that:

"If necessary in a given environment, this could be faked by hav-
"ing a host pretend to be a stub router; however, this would require
"the host to participate in routing protocols, which is generally
"considered to be a bad idea. A better solution would be to extend
"NDP to handle host address prefix lengths.

I guess the authors didn't know about DHCPv6 prefix delegation.

I think the same applies to hosts with lots of VMs: maintaining a potentially
large number of NC entries for a single MAC address is unlikely to scale.
This is what routing is designed for.



From sander@steffann.nl  Sun Jul 17 04:59:11 2011
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns ? 
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Hi,

> I think the same applies to hosts with lots of VMs: maintaining a =
potentially
> large number of NC entries for a single MAC address is unlikely to =
scale.
> This is what routing is designed for.

Then why are there 64 bits in the IID? And I don't think it has anything =
to do with the MAC address. 1000 IPv6 addresses on 10 MAC addresses =
scales as well as 1000 IPv6 addresses on 1000 MAC addresses. It might =
make a difference for the switch, but not for ND/NC.

- Sander
PS: I consider having the possibility of having a large amount of IPv6 =
addresses on one interface a great feature, not something I would want =
to limit.


From ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org  Sun Jul 17 05:23:29 2011
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From: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns ?
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On Sun, 17 Jul 2011 13:54:06 +0200
Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> > I think the same applies to hosts with lots of VMs: maintaining a potentially
> > large number of NC entries for a single MAC address is unlikely to scale.
> > This is what routing is designed for.
> 
> Then why are there 64 bits in the IID? And I don't think it has anything to do with the MAC address. 1000 IPv6 addresses on 10 MAC addresses scales as well as 1000 IPv6 addresses on 1000 MAC addresses. It might make a difference for the switch, but not for ND/NC.
> 

As people have observed, this is also a problem with IPv4 and ARP with
a large enough subnet, so it isn't unique to IPv6, it's just that the
size of IPv6 subnets is large and therefore it becomes more of an issue.

I think the ultimate root cause is that the creation of neighbor cache
entries is triggered by data plane traffic, rather than created by a
control plane protocol i.e. a neighbor registration protocol. I think
that means that what ever mitigations are put in place, they'll likely
always be fundamentally vulnerable to data plane traffic attacks.

If changing the way ND NS/NAs work is an option, then it might be
better to adopt or use as a model the 6lowpan neighbor registration
protocols, or perhaps review the ES-IS protocol as a model. That is
obviously a large and wholesale change, however I think it would be the
only way to truly eliminate any data plane traffic attacks on neighbor
resolution.

> - Sander
> PS: I consider having the possibility of having a large amount of IPv6 addresses on one interface a great feature, not something I would want to limit.
> 

Regards,
Mark.

From ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org  Sun Jul 17 06:18:44 2011
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To: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns ?
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On Sun, 17 Jul 2011 21:53:20 +0930
Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> wrote:

> On Sun, 17 Jul 2011 13:54:06 +0200
> Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > > I think the same applies to hosts with lots of VMs: maintaining a potentially
> > > large number of NC entries for a single MAC address is unlikely to scale.
> > > This is what routing is designed for.
> > 
> > Then why are there 64 bits in the IID? And I don't think it has anything to do with the MAC address. 1000 IPv6 addresses on 10 MAC addresses scales as well as 1000 IPv6 addresses on 1000 MAC addresses. It might make a difference for the switch, but not for ND/NC.
> > 
> 
> As people have observed, this is also a problem with IPv4 and ARP with
> a large enough subnet, so it isn't unique to IPv6, it's just that the
> size of IPv6 subnets is large and therefore it becomes more of an issue.
> 
> I think the ultimate root cause is that the creation of neighbor cache
> entries is triggered by data plane traffic, rather than created by a
> control plane protocol i.e. a neighbor registration protocol. I think
> that means that what ever mitigations are put in place, they'll likely
> always be fundamentally vulnerable to data plane traffic attacks.
> 
> If changing the way ND NS/NAs work is an option, then it might be
> better to adopt or use as a model the 6lowpan neighbor registration
> protocols, or perhaps review the ES-IS protocol as a model. That is
> obviously a large and wholesale change, however I think it would be the
> only way to truly eliminate any data plane traffic attacks on neighbor
> resolution.
> 

Actually, that level of change might not be that necessary. If the
destination address for the Duplicate Address Detection probes was
changed to the all-nodes rather than the solicited nodes multicast
address, then all receving nodes could immediately create a neighbor
cache entry for the new device if one doesn't already exist. From that
point on, Neighbor Unreachability Detection would then take care of
maintaining the neighbor cache entry, and deleting it if the host
disappears. 


> > - Sander
> > PS: I consider having the possibility of having a large amount of IPv6 addresses on one interface a great feature, not something I would want to limit.
> > 
> 
> Regards,
> Mark.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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From ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org  Sun Jul 17 07:11:13 2011
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To: Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops@u-1.phicoh.com>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns ?
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On Sun, 17 Jul 2011 15:37:00 +0200
Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops@u-1.phicoh.com> wrote:

> In your letter dated Sun, 17 Jul 2011 22:48:40 +0930 you wrote:
> >Actually, that level of change might not be that necessary. If the
> >destination address for the Duplicate Address Detection probes was
> >changed to the all-nodes rather than the solicited nodes multicast
> >address, then all receving nodes could immediately create a neighbor
> >cache entry for the new device if one doesn't already exist. From that
> >point on, Neighbor Unreachability Detection would then take care of
> >maintaining the neighbor cache entry, and deleting it if the host
> >disappears. 
> 
> And then a router reboots. How does it find out about all the nodes already
> there?
> 

Good point, there would need to be a message to solicit addresses. An
NS to the all nodes address with an unspecified (::) target address
perhaps.

So perhaps the changes required would be mostly limited to -

- DADs to all-nodes rather than solicited node addresses
- nodes receiving the DAD use that to create a neighbor cache entry
- NUD takes care of maintaining the validity of those entries
- ND NS to all nodes with an unspecified target address solicits NAs
  from all nodes to cover the router (or any device) reboot situation

Anycast addresses would be an issue because DAD isn't performed by
them. Perhaps a special "DAD" could be performed for them which causes
the receiving devices to record their presence, but a normal NS/NA
transaction for the anycast address is triggered if the anycast address
is attempted to be used and hasn't been fully resolved.

From pch-b2B3A6689@u-1.phicoh.com  Sun Jul 17 06:35:10 2011
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns ? 
From: Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops@u-1.phicoh.com>
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In your letter dated Sun, 17 Jul 2011 21:53:20 +0930 you wrote:
>I think the ultimate root cause is that the creation of neighbor cache
>entries is triggered by data plane traffic, rather than created by a
>control plane protocol i.e. a neighbor registration protocol. I think
>that means that what ever mitigations are put in place, they'll likely
>always be fundamentally vulnerable to data plane traffic attacks.

I don't think that is true. But that is for later.

>If changing the way ND NS/NAs work is an option, then it might be
>better to adopt or use as a model the 6lowpan neighbor registration
>protocols, or perhaps review the ES-IS protocol as a model. That is
>obviously a large and wholesale change, however I think it would be the
>only way to truly eliminate any data plane traffic attacks on neighbor
>resolution.

I think we should just put the various design options on the table. See how
they work, how many changes they require etc.

But before that, the question now on the table is whether v6ops wants to spend
more time figuring out what can be done with the current standards and/or
what guidance they can give for new options.



From pch-b2B3A6689@u-1.phicoh.com  Sun Jul 17 06:37:10 2011
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns ? 
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In your letter dated Sun, 17 Jul 2011 22:48:40 +0930 you wrote:
>Actually, that level of change might not be that necessary. If the
>destination address for the Duplicate Address Detection probes was
>changed to the all-nodes rather than the solicited nodes multicast
>address, then all receving nodes could immediately create a neighbor
>cache entry for the new device if one doesn't already exist. From that
>point on, Neighbor Unreachability Detection would then take care of
>maintaining the neighbor cache entry, and deleting it if the host
>disappears. 

And then a router reboots. How does it find out about all the nodes already
there?



From pch-b2B3A6689@u-1.phicoh.com  Sun Jul 17 07:57:30 2011
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns ? 
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[I dropped v6ops]

In your letter dated Sun, 17 Jul 2011 23:41:05 +0930 you wrote:
>Good point, there would need to be a message to solicit addresses. An
>NS to the all nodes address with an unspecified (::) target address
>perhaps.
>
>So perhaps the changes required would be mostly limited to -
>
>- DADs to all-nodes rather than solicited node addresses
>- nodes receiving the DAD use that to create a neighbor cache entry
>- NUD takes care of maintaining the validity of those entries
>- ND NS to all nodes with an unspecified target address solicits NAs
>  from all nodes to cover the router (or any device) reboot situation

So my proposal would be to add an option to RA. This option specifies a time
over which nodes should distrubute updating the router (random number between
zero and the timeout). At the selected time, the node then starts NUD on 
the router. Note that it has to do that for all of its addresses. Which is
not part of ND at the moment.

This should be enough. When a node boots it sends an RS. When a node adds a
new address (not triggered by an RA) it may need to go over its list of
routers and update them.

Routers can always add the option to their RAs. But an alternative is to do
that only when they become overloaded.



From huitema@microsoft.com  Sun Jul 17 09:09:33 2011
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From: Christian Huitema <huitema@microsoft.com>
To: Philip Homburg <pch-6man@u-1.phicoh.com>, Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
Subject: RE: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns	? 
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns	? 
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Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 16:09:29 +0000
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>So perhaps the changes required would be mostly limited to -
>
>- DADs to all-nodes rather than solicited node addresses
>- nodes receiving the DAD use that to create a neighbor cache entry
>- NUD takes care of maintaining the validity of those entries
>- ND NS to all nodes with an unspecified target address solicits NAs
>  from all nodes to cover the router (or any device) reboot situation

I am not sure this addresses the problem too well. The DOS issue manifests =
itself at the gateway, and the main issue is the remote DOS: attacker sends=
 packets to a very large number of putative IPv6 addresses in the subnet ma=
naged by the local gateway, causing the size of the neighbor cache to explo=
de. If we want to protect the cache in the gateway, let's do that. The solu=
tion has to be a tweak in the implementation of ND in the gateway, along th=
e lines of:

- Upon arrival of a packet from the local network:
- If the source address is already in ND cache, keep it there
- if the source address is not already in the ND cache:
	Perform some quota check on the source MAC address,
	If the quota is exceeded, drop the packet to protect against local DOS
	If the quota is not exceeded, perform ND for the source address

- Upon arrival of a packet bound to the local subnet
- If the destination address is already in ND cache, route the packet;
- If the destination address is not in ND cache:
	If the table is "too full," drop the packet
	Else, perform ND

The basic idea is that remote parties should only be sending to addresses t=
hat have already been discovered in the local subnet. This is, in a way, a =
weak form of stateful filtering. It needs to be implemented softly, because=
 routers/gateways sometime lose their memory, so we want to allow for some =
dynamic learning if the tables are not already populated.

The proposed tweaks amount to making ND learn faster. They are fine in gene=
ral, but they have the side effect of making local DOS easier. A local atta=
cker could generate a large number of addresses, etc.

-- Christian Huitema




From moore@network-heretics.com  Sun Jul 17 09:49:19 2011
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns	?
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From: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
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On Jul 17, 2011, at 12:09 PM, Christian Huitema wrote:

>> So perhaps the changes required would be mostly limited to -
>>=20
>> - DADs to all-nodes rather than solicited node addresses
>> - nodes receiving the DAD use that to create a neighbor cache entry
>> - NUD takes care of maintaining the validity of those entries
>> - ND NS to all nodes with an unspecified target address solicits NAs
>> from all nodes to cover the router (or any device) reboot situation
>=20
> I am not sure this addresses the problem too well. The DOS issue =
manifests itself at the gateway, and the main issue is the remote DOS: =
attacker sends packets to a very large number of putative IPv6 addresses =
in the subnet managed by the local gateway, causing the size of the =
neighbor cache to explode. If we want to protect the cache in the =
gateway, let's do that. The solution has to be a tweak in the =
implementation of ND in the gateway, along the lines of:
>=20
> - Upon arrival of a packet from the local network:
> - If the source address is already in ND cache, keep it there
> - if the source address is not already in the ND cache:
> 	Perform some quota check on the source MAC address,
> 	If the quota is exceeded, drop the packet to protect against =
local DOS
> 	If the quota is not exceeded, perform ND for the source address
>=20
> - Upon arrival of a packet bound to the local subnet
> - If the destination address is already in ND cache, route the packet;
> - If the destination address is not in ND cache:
> 	If the table is "too full," drop the packet
> 	Else, perform ND
>=20
> The basic idea is that remote parties should only be sending to =
addresses that have already been discovered in the local subnet. This =
is, in a way, a weak form of stateful filtering. It needs to be =
implemented softly, because routers/gateways sometime lose their memory, =
so we want to allow for some dynamic learning if the tables are not =
already populated.
>=20
> The proposed tweaks amount to making ND learn faster. They are fine in =
general, but they have the side effect of making local DOS easier. A =
local attacker could generate a large number of addresses, etc.

As a defense against remote attack, I'm thinking that routers should =
limit the percentage of their ND caches that are associated with =
nonexistent hosts.  I suspect there are circumstances when it makes =
sense to have "passive" hosts, perhaps even large numbers of them, which =
the local router isn't aware of until traffic from outside arrives for =
them.  =20

It might also make sense to rate-limit ND messages sent as a result of =
inbound traffic - if this rate of such ND messages exceeds a certain =
threshold,  drop incoming packets for hosts not in the ND cache at =
random.

Regarding local attack, I doubt that the right thing to do is for =
routers to give preference to addresses already in the ND cache.  It =
seems like that would just invite DoS attack, by having the attacking =
host flood the router's ND cache at regular intervals (especially if the =
ND cache entry timeout were a constant).   A better idea might be for =
routers to give preference to addresses that are actually being used to =
exchange traffic.  That might mean associating a count or timestamp with =
each ND cache entry.  (which admittedly can introduce its own set of =
issues under certain conditions).

And I wonder whether ND cache entries should have a "half-life" rather =
than a strict timeout.

That still leaves the possibility of an attack where a local host =
generates large numbers of addresses, and actually uses each of them to =
exchange traffic with a remote host.  As long as hosts can easily and =
quickly change their interfaces' MAC addresses, I don't see an easy way =
to deal with that.... though perhaps platforms could rate-limit the =
ability of applications to do that.

Keith


From sander@steffann.nl  Sun Jul 17 11:46:58 2011
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns	?
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From: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
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Hi,

> As a defense against remote attack, I'm thinking that routers should =
limit the percentage of their ND caches that are associated with =
nonexistent hosts.  I suspect there are circumstances when it makes =
sense to have "passive" hosts, perhaps even large numbers of them, which =
the local router isn't aware of until traffic from outside arrives for =
them.  =20
>=20
> It might also make sense to rate-limit ND messages sent as a result of =
inbound traffic - if this rate of such ND messages exceeds a certain =
threshold,  drop incoming packets for hosts not in the ND cache at =
random.

It might be a good idea to increase the timers on the hosts that are in =
the cache, or to start refreshing those cache entries actively before =
they run out. In such a situation we might want to keep the pool of =
verified existing hosts as large as possible to keep the dropping of =
good packets to a minimum.

Sander


From v6ops@globis.net  Sun Jul 17 12:00:45 2011
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns ?
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>
> Subject:
> Re: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns ?
> From:
> Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops@u-1.phicoh.com>
> Date:
> Sun, 17 Jul 2011 15:37:00 +0200
>
> To:
> Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
> CC:
> ipv6@ietf.org, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
>
> Precedence:
> list
> References:
> <D4F95C5E-20A3-4B1E-8211-07B7831F3E89@gmail.com> 
> <5022DA1A-2DAD-412F-9742-0780389D8B09@bogus.com> 
> <E3161138-0CAA-44E8-A329-E71408D0AE61@gmail.com> 
> <424D0613-0E51-48CE-ACA9-8059D1071391@cisco.com> 
> <20110717113237.0137abcd@opy.nosense.org> 
> <m1QiN79-0001jMC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> 
> <A1924BC2-B42D-4A06-8122-ABFF325E1CF4@steffann.nl> 
> <20110717215320.73e71245@opy.nosense.org> 
> <20110717224840.574ab41f@opy.nosense.org>
> In-Reply-To:
> Your message of "Sun, 17 Jul 2011 22:48:40 +0930 ." 
> <20110717224840.574ab41f@opy.nosense.org>
> Message-ID:
> <m1QiRWn-0001i7C@stereo.hq.phicoh.net>
> Message:
> 8
>
>
> In your letter dated Sun, 17 Jul 2011 22:48:40 +0930 you wrote:
>    
>> >Actually, that level of change might not be that necessary. If the
>> >destination address for the Duplicate Address Detection probes was
>> >changed to the all-nodes rather than the solicited nodes multicast
>> >address, then all receving nodes could immediately create a neighbor
>> >cache entry for the new device if one doesn't already exist. From that
>> >point on, Neighbor Unreachability Detection would then take care of
>> >maintaining the neighbor cache entry, and deleting it if the host
>> >disappears.
>>      
>
> And then a router reboots. How does it find out about all the nodes already
> there?
>
>
>    
It's not just a router rebooting that's a problem: a temporarily 
split-brain L2 link (think spanning tree thrashing at the time when a 
node registers) could cause the same problem. There has to be some time 
related or event related (or both) trigger to refresh (not just when a 
L3 event like a node restart or interface up/down occurs).

Something has to give IMVHO, because AFAIK all of the current mitigation 
measures all rely on scarcity of either attacker or target addresses, 
which just isn't reality assuming mass-deployment of SLAAC.

How can you effectively (rate) filter if you can't tell good from bad?

I agree with Philip that there should be a number of options put on the 
table, and the various trade offs examined.

The conclusion might be that there needs to be various forms of ND, that 
are media dependent. Or small tweaks might help.
Or it might be that the current compromise really is the best 
achievable. But let's see.

regards,
RayH

--------------010509050804070209080500
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Re: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns ?</td>
      </tr>
      <tr>
        <td>
        <div class="headerdisplayname" style="display: inline;">From: </div>
Philip Homburg <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:pch-v6ops@u-1.phicoh.com">&lt;pch-v6ops@u-1.phicoh.com&gt;</a></td>
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        <div class="headerdisplayname" style="display: inline;">Date: </div>
Sun, 17 Jul 2011 15:37:00 +0200</td>
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        <div class="headerdisplayname" style="display: inline;">To: </div>
Mark Smith <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org">&lt;ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org&gt;</a></td>
      </tr>
      <tr>
        <td>
        <div class="headerdisplayname" style="display: inline;">CC: </div>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ipv6@ietf.org">ipv6@ietf.org</a>, IPv6 Operations <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">&lt;v6ops@ietf.org&gt;</a></td>
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        <div class="headerdisplayname" style="display: inline;">Precedence:
        </div>
list</td>
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        <td>
        <div class="headerdisplayname" style="display: inline;">References:
        </div>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:D4F95C5E-20A3-4B1E-8211-07B7831F3E89@gmail.com">&lt;D4F95C5E-20A3-4B1E-8211-07B7831F3E89@gmail.com&gt;</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:5022DA1A-2DAD-412F-9742-0780389D8B09@bogus.com">&lt;5022DA1A-2DAD-412F-9742-0780389D8B09@bogus.com&gt;</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:E3161138-0CAA-44E8-A329-E71408D0AE61@gmail.com">&lt;E3161138-0CAA-44E8-A329-E71408D0AE61@gmail.com&gt;</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:424D0613-0E51-48CE-ACA9-8059D1071391@cisco.com">&lt;424D0613-0E51-48CE-ACA9-8059D1071391@cisco.com&gt;</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:20110717113237.0137abcd@opy.nosense.org">&lt;20110717113237.0137abcd@opy.nosense.org&gt;</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:m1QiN79-0001jMC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net">&lt;m1QiN79-0001jMC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net&gt;</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:A1924BC2-B42D-4A06-8122-ABFF325E1CF4@steffann.nl">&lt;A1924BC2-B42D-4A06-8122-ABFF325E1CF4@steffann.nl&gt;</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:20110717215320.73e71245@opy.nosense.org">&lt;20110717215320.73e71245@opy.nosense.org&gt;</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:20110717224840.574ab41f@opy.nosense.org">&lt;20110717224840.574ab41f@opy.nosense.org&gt;</a></td>
      </tr>
      <tr>
        <td>
        <div class="headerdisplayname" style="display: inline;">In-Reply-To:
        </div>
Your message of "Sun, 17 Jul 2011 22:48:40 +0930 ."
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:20110717224840.574ab41f@opy.nosense.org">&lt;20110717224840.574ab41f@opy.nosense.org&gt;</a></td>
      </tr>
      <tr>
        <td>
        <div class="headerdisplayname" style="display: inline;">Message-ID:
        </div>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:m1QiRWn-0001i7C@stereo.hq.phicoh.net">&lt;m1QiRWn-0001i7C@stereo.hq.phicoh.net&gt;</a></td>
      </tr>
      <tr>
        <td>
        <div class="headerdisplayname" style="display: inline;">Message:
        </div>
8</td>
      </tr>
    </tbody>
  </table>
  <br>
  <div class="moz-text-plain" wrap="true" graphical-quote="true"
 style="font-size: 13px;" lang="x-western">
  <pre wrap="">In your letter dated Sun, 17 Jul 2011 22:48:40 +0930 you wrote:
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
    <pre wrap=""><span class="moz-txt-citetags">&gt;</span>Actually, that level of change might not be that necessary. If the
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">&gt;</span>destination address for the Duplicate Address Detection probes was
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">&gt;</span>changed to the all-nodes rather than the solicited nodes multicast
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">&gt;</span>address, then all receving nodes could immediately create a neighbor
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">&gt;</span>cache entry for the new device if one doesn't already exist. From that
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">&gt;</span>point on, Neighbor Unreachability Detection would then take care of
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">&gt;</span>maintaining the neighbor cache entry, and deleting it if the host
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">&gt;</span>disappears. 
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
And then a router reboots. How does it find out about all the nodes already
there?


  </pre>
  </div>
</blockquote>
It's not just a router rebooting that's a problem: a temporarily
split-brain L2 link (think spanning tree thrashing at the time when a
node registers) could cause the same problem. There has to be some time
related or event related (or both) trigger to refresh (not just when a
L3 event like a node restart or interface up/down occurs).<br>
<br>
Something has to give IMVHO, because AFAIK all of the current
mitigation measures all rely on scarcity of either attacker or target
addresses, which just isn't reality assuming mass-deployment of SLAAC.<br>
<br>
How can you effectively (rate) filter if you can't tell good from bad?<br>
<br>
I agree with Philip that there should be a number of options put on the
table, and the various trade offs examined.<br>
<br>
The conclusion might be that there needs to be various forms of ND,
that are media dependent. Or small tweaks might help.<br>
Or it might be that the current compromise really is the best
achievable. But let's see.<br>
<br>
regards,<br>
RayH<br>
</body>
</html>

--------------010509050804070209080500--

From dr@cluenet.de  Sun Jul 17 11:56:21 2011
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From: Daniel Roesen <dr@cluenet.de>
To: v6ops@ietf.org, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns ?
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On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 04:09:29PM +0000, Christian Huitema wrote:
> The basic idea is that remote parties should only be sending to
> addresses that have already been discovered in the local subnet.

Breaks with any VRRP setup.

Best regards,
Daniel

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From huitema@microsoft.com  Sun Jul 17 13:14:59 2011
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From: Christian Huitema <huitema@microsoft.com>
To: Daniel Roesen <dr@cluenet.de>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns ?
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns ?
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> From: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of D=
aniel Roesen
> On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 04:09:29PM +0000, Christian Huitema wrote:
>> The basic idea is that remote parties should only be sending to=20
>> addresses that have already been discovered in the local subnet.
>
> Breaks with any VRRP setup.

VRPP is probably a special case of a router losing its memory...=20

In any case, as Ray Hunter noted, you need to somehow "tell good from bad" =
if you want to filter effectively. My suggestion is that an address from wh=
ich traffic has been sourced locally is more likely to be "good" than an ad=
dress that appears for the first time in a packet coming from afar. This is=
 effectively the property used by most stateful firewalls, so there is some=
 operational experience with that.=20

There are indeed a few issues, e.g. the local server who expects remote TCP=
 connections but remains otherwise silent, or the router that was just rebo=
oted, or swapped in, and has no idea about the current working set. The sol=
ution to the server issue has to be some kind of keep-alive, e.g. with ND. =
The solution to the "router with no memory" is probably a looser control du=
ring a "learning" period, possibly combined with some form of fast ND refre=
sh.

Of course, there are no good solutions against a local host who is actively=
 trying to DOS a local router. Keith pointed out that local hosts can gener=
ate as many MAC addresses as they want... But then, there are meatspace sol=
utions to this kind of things.

-- Christian Huitema





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Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 09:01:16 +0930
From: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
To: Christian Huitema <huitema@microsoft.com>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns	?
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Hi Christian,

On Sun, 17 Jul 2011 16:09:29 +0000
Christian Huitema <huitema@microsoft.com> wrote:

> >So perhaps the changes required would be mostly limited to -
> >
> >- DADs to all-nodes rather than solicited node addresses
> >- nodes receiving the DAD use that to create a neighbor cache entry
> >- NUD takes care of maintaining the validity of those entries
> >- ND NS to all nodes with an unspecified target address solicits NAs
> >  from all nodes to cover the router (or any device) reboot situation
> 
> I am not sure this addresses the problem too well. The DOS issue manifests itself at the gateway, and the main issue is the remote DOS: attacker sends packets to a very large number of putative IPv6 addresses in the subnet managed by the local gateway, causing the size of the neighbor cache to explode. If we want to protect the cache in the gateway, let's do that.

I agree the attack is most likely going to be aimed at a remote router,
however I've also realised that a local host cache may also be a
target on a multi-user host. With virtualisation and (groan) "cloud
computing", these are becoming more common again.

> The solution has to be a tweak in the implementation of ND in the
 gateway, along the lines of:
> 
> - Upon arrival of a packet from the local network:
> - If the source address is already in ND cache, keep it there
> - if the source address is not already in the ND cache:
> 	Perform some quota check on the source MAC address,
> 	If the quota is exceeded, drop the packet to protect against local DOS
> 	If the quota is not exceeded, perform ND for the source address
> 
> - Upon arrival of a packet bound to the local subnet
> - If the destination address is already in ND cache, route the packet;
> - If the destination address is not in ND cache:
> 	If the table is "too full," drop the packet
> 	Else, perform ND
> 
> The basic idea is that remote parties should only be sending to addresses that have already been discovered in the local subnet. This is, in a way, a weak form of stateful filtering. It needs to be implemented softly, because routers/gateways sometime lose their memory, so we want to allow for some dynamic learning if the tables are not already populated.
> 
> The proposed tweaks amount to making ND learn faster. They are fine in general, but they have the side effect of making local DOS easier. A local attacker could generate a large number of addresses, etc.
> 

True, it is vulnerable to a local DoS, although I think thats much
better than a remote DoS, because I think local attackers have more
of a vested interest in the router being available, and local segments
are fairly commonly controlled. In SP environments, there are a lot of
spoofing related attacks e.g. RAs, so the measures that SPs put in
place to sanitise their customers' traffic tends to mitigate these
local DoS attacks.

I definitely see addressing the remote DoS to be the main priority. If
the solutions to that can also help mitigate some of the local DoS
methods that's all the better, however I think they're less of a
threat, and ones we've already had experience with because similar ones
exist in IPv4.

Regards,
Mark.

From fred@cisco.com  Sun Jul 17 16:45:14 2011
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns ? 
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From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
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On Jul 17, 2011, at 1:53 AM, Philip Homburg wrote:

> In your letter dated Sun, 17 Jul 2011 11:32:37 +0930 you wrote:
>> The quite novel technique of allocation transient addresses to
>> applications/processes to assist with firewalling also takes =
advantage
>> of IPv6's large address space and that hosts can have multiple
>> addresses at once. It'd be a shame to loose the opportunity to do =
that
>> or similar innovative things with the large IPv6 address space -
>=20
> A more scalable approach is to simply route a /96 to the host. There =
paper
> already suggests that:
>=20
> "If necessary in a given environment, this could be faked by hav-
> "ing a host pretend to be a stub router; however, this would require
> "the host to participate in routing protocols, which is generally
> "considered to be a bad idea. A better solution would be to extend
> "NDP to handle host address prefix lengths.
>=20
> I guess the authors didn't know about DHCPv6 prefix delegation.
>=20
> I think the same applies to hosts with lots of VMs: maintaining a =
potentially
> large number of NC entries for a single MAC address is unlikely to =
scale.
> This is what routing is designed for.

One issue to think about has to do with virtual machines. If I have one =
physical platform that appears to the network to be many virtual =
platforms, I would likely want to give it many IPv6 addresses. In a =
cloud computing environment, if I move a virtual machine from one =
platform to another, I would like to move the address and its routing, =
by changing the MAC address associated with the IPv6 address. Forcing a =
/96 here would limit my options - to change the routing, I would be =
forced to change the address, which is something in a cloud computing =
environment that I don't want to do.

I could imagine a mix of the proposals, though. I could imagine using a =
/80 for a rack or a /96 per platform for virtual machines that reside =
there, with a smattering of /128s within the data center for virtual =
machines that have moved - and if there was a long term movement, I =
could imagine renumbering the machine by adding a new address to it in =
its new /96, changing the DNS name, waiting an appropriate interval, and =
then removing the old address's /128 from routing and from the virtual =
machine.=

From joelja@bogus.com  Sun Jul 17 17:54:19 2011
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns ?
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On Jul 17, 2011, at 4:44 PM, Fred Baker wrote:

>=20
> On Jul 17, 2011, at 1:53 AM, Philip Homburg wrote:
>=20
>> In your letter dated Sun, 17 Jul 2011 11:32:37 +0930 you wrote:
>>> The quite novel technique of allocation transient addresses to
>>> applications/processes to assist with firewalling also takes =
advantage
>>> of IPv6's large address space and that hosts can have multiple
>>> addresses at once. It'd be a shame to loose the opportunity to do =
that
>>> or similar innovative things with the large IPv6 address space -
>>=20
>> A more scalable approach is to simply route a /96 to the host. There =
paper
>> already suggests that:
>>=20
>> "If necessary in a given environment, this could be faked by hav-
>> "ing a host pretend to be a stub router; however, this would require
>> "the host to participate in routing protocols, which is generally
>> "considered to be a bad idea. A better solution would be to extend
>> "NDP to handle host address prefix lengths.
>>=20
>> I guess the authors didn't know about DHCPv6 prefix delegation.
>>=20
>> I think the same applies to hosts with lots of VMs: maintaining a =
potentially
>> large number of NC entries for a single MAC address is unlikely to =
scale.
>> This is what routing is designed for.
>=20
> One issue to think about has to do with virtual machines. If I have =
one physical platform that appears to the network to be many virtual =
platforms, I would likely want to give it many IPv6 addresses. In a =
cloud computing environment, if I move a virtual machine from one =
platform to another, I would like to move the address and its routing, =
by changing the MAC address associated with the IPv6 address. Forcing a =
/96 here would limit my options - to change the routing, I would be =
forced to change the address, which is something in a cloud computing =
environment that I don't want to do.

Practically speaking you can also achieve the host mobility that large =
layer-2's achieve through an l3 mobility approach. eg. the host uses an =
igp to advertise it's availability (that is, the nexthop for a prefix =
which it has bound to it) within the datacenter... This (could) reduce =
the visibility of the subnet to which the host is attached. (it doesn't =
have to be externally reachable for example, host address assignments =
may be independent of local topology etc. I can't say I've done it with =
end systems but we do do a similar thing with load balancers (which are =
linux boxes running bgp), where they are ebgp peered with the DC border =
using a private AS and you you can take a load-balancer or prefix out of =
service or move it by withdrawing the prefix on one load balancer or =
advertise it on another.

vmware vmotion for example is happy to work across layer-3 networks, the =
hosts however need intervention when their numbering changes.

> I could imagine a mix of the proposals, though. I could imagine using =
a /80 for a rack or a /96 per platform for virtual machines that reside =
there, with a smattering of /128s within the data center for virtual =
machines that have moved - and if there was a long term movement, I =
could imagine renumbering the machine by adding a new address to it in =
its new /96, changing the DNS name, waiting an appropriate interval, and =
then removing the old address's /128 from routing and from the virtual =
machine.

I was mostly interested in solving the problem independently of the =
subnet size. My assumption is that due to slaac, that I'm going to be =
using /64 subnets for networks which have hosts on them... while much of =
the exposed side of a DC probably doesn't rely on slaac and is in fact =
point-to-point links, places where hosts connect probably are. if the =
mac address ends up being encoded in the address at any point it seems a =
little silly to split the difference between /64 and /80, both are =
trivially big enough to blow up the unpoliced ND cache or dos the =
routers cpu.

> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>=20


From kauer@biplane.com.au  Mon Jul 18 05:25:43 2011
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Subject: PMTUD and MTU < 1280
From: Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au>
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I'm puzzled by something in RFC1981, which discusses PMTUD and IPv6.

It contains these two paragraphs towards the end of Section 4:

   A node MUST NOT reduce its estimate of the Path MTU below the IPv6
   minimum link MTU.

      Note: A node may receive a Packet Too Big message reporting a
      next-hop MTU that is less than the IPv6 minimum link MTU.  In that
      case, the node is not required to reduce the size of subsequent
      packets sent on the path to less than the IPv6 minimun link MTU,
      but rather must include a Fragment header in those packets [IPv6-
      SPEC].

What does that mean - "insert a Fragment header"? And it may not be
*required* to reduce the size of subsequent packets, but does that mean
it *can* if it wants to? And isn't inserting a whole new header a bit
counterproductive if someone is telling your your packets are too big
already? All in all I have this strong feeling I'm missing something
obvious. Any clues gratefully received.

Regards, K.

PS: [IPv6-SPEC]" refers to RFC1883, "Internet Protocol, Version 6 (IPv6)
Specification". I've read it again, especially the section on the
Fragment header, but am none the wiser.

--=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)

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From pch-b2B3A6689@u-1.phicoh.com  Mon Jul 18 05:47:11 2011
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To: Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au>
Subject: Re: PMTUD and MTU < 1280 
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In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Jul 2011 22:25:30 +1000 ." <1310991930.2724.17.camel@karl> 
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In your letter dated Mon, 18 Jul 2011 22:25:30 +1000 you wrote:
>I'm puzzled by something in RFC1981, which discusses PMTUD and IPv6.
>
>It contains these two paragraphs towards the end of Section 4:
>
>   A node MUST NOT reduce its estimate of the Path MTU below the IPv6
>   minimum link MTU.
>
>      Note: A node may receive a Packet Too Big message reporting a
>      next-hop MTU that is less than the IPv6 minimum link MTU.  In that
>      case, the node is not required to reduce the size of subsequent
>      packets sent on the path to less than the IPv6 minimun link MTU,
>      but rather must include a Fragment header in those packets [IPv6-
>      SPEC].
>
>What does that mean - "insert a Fragment header"? And it may not be
>*required* to reduce the size of subsequent packets, but does that mean
>it *can* if it wants to? And isn't inserting a whole new header a bit
>counterproductive if someone is telling your your packets are too big
>already? All in all I have this strong feeling I'm missing something
>obvious. Any clues gratefully received.

I think that there was a tunneling protocol that would need the fragment ID 
in the fragment header to do fragmentation on the lower layer or something
like that. 

It never made much sense to me.



From fweimer@bfk.de  Mon Jul 18 07:07:20 2011
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From: Florian Weimer <fweimer@bfk.de>
To: Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au>
Subject: Re: PMTUD and MTU < 1280
References: <1310991930.2724.17.camel@karl>
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 14:07:10 +0000
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* Karl Auer:

> I'm puzzled by something in RFC1981, which discusses PMTUD and IPv6.
>
> It contains these two paragraphs towards the end of Section 4:
>
>    A node MUST NOT reduce its estimate of the Path MTU below the IPv6
>    minimum link MTU.
>
>       Note: A node may receive a Packet Too Big message reporting a
>       next-hop MTU that is less than the IPv6 minimum link MTU.  In that
>       case, the node is not required to reduce the size of subsequent
>       packets sent on the path to less than the IPv6 minimun link MTU,
>       but rather must include a Fragment header in those packets [IPv6-
>       SPEC].

I've recently submitted an erratum to section 5 of RFC 2460, which
contains a similar requirement.  The requirement makes it impossible to
serve IPv6 services in a stateless fashion, so it's clearly bogus.
(Technically, you could always include the Fragment header, but that
would be an ugly kludge.)

--=20
Florian Weimer                <fweimer@bfk.de>
BFK edv-consulting GmbH       http://www.bfk.de/
Kriegsstra=DFe 100              tel: +49-721-96201-1
D-76133 Karlsruhe             fax: +49-721-96201-99

From brian@innovationslab.net  Mon Jul 18 08:51:47 2011
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From: Brian Haberman <brian@innovationslab.net>
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6MAN Participants,
     During IESG evaluation, a DISCUSS position was raised on whether or
not several of the bits (4 was suggested) be reserved as a discriminator
to identify how the flow label is being used.  We had a discussion in
2010 on separating the current 20 bits of flow label into sub-fields
(discussion started around this point in the mailing list archives :
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ipv6/current/msg12031.html).

     The consensus from that mailing list discussion was to not divide
the flow label for several reasons:

1. Encoding semantics was too complex to handle at line rate

2. A 16-bit flow label may be too easy to predict

3. These fields are not protected in anyway, so there is little trust in
the values set

The above reasons led to the decision to retain the flow label as a
single 20-bit field as it is currently defined in 3697bis.  Since this
is a DISCUSS position, the goal of this message is to educate the IESG
on our line of thinking and allow other WG participants to chime in with
other reasons I have omitted for keeping the flow label a single entity
within the IPv6 header.

Regards,
Brian

From joelja@bogus.com  Mon Jul 18 09:51:01 2011
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns ? 
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On Jul 17, 2011, at 4:54 AM, Sander Steffann wrote:

> Hi,
>=20
>> I think the same applies to hosts with lots of VMs: maintaining a =
potentially
>> large number of NC entries for a single MAC address is unlikely to =
scale.
>> This is what routing is designed for.
>=20
> Then why are there 64 bits in the IID? And I don't think it has =
anything to do with the MAC address. 1000 IPv6 addresses on 10 MAC =
addresses scales as well as 1000 IPv6 addresses on 1000 MAC addresses. =
It might make a difference for the switch, but not for ND/NC.

ieee eui-64 uses 64 bits therefore some interface types (firewire ports =
for example) have 64 bit mac address. we will eventually run out of 48 =
bit mac addresses given there are only 16.7 million oui blocks...

> - Sander
> PS: I consider having the possibility of having a large amount of IPv6 =
addresses on one interface a great feature, not something I would want =
to limit.
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20


From nordmark@acm.org  Mon Jul 18 15:39:44 2011
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On 7/18/11 5:25 AM, Karl Auer wrote:
> I'm puzzled by something in RFC1981, which discusses PMTUD and IPv6.
>
> It contains these two paragraphs towards the end of Section 4:
>
>     A node MUST NOT reduce its estimate of the Path MTU below the IPv6
>     minimum link MTU.
>
>        Note: A node may receive a Packet Too Big message reporting a
>        next-hop MTU that is less than the IPv6 minimum link MTU.  In that
>        case, the node is not required to reduce the size of subsequent
>        packets sent on the path to less than the IPv6 minimun link MTU,
>        but rather must include a Fragment header in those packets [IPv6-
>        SPEC].
>
> What does that mean - "insert a Fragment header"? And it may not be
> *required* to reduce the size of subsequent packets, but does that mean
> it *can* if it wants to? And isn't inserting a whole new header a bit
> counterproductive if someone is telling your your packets are too big
> already? All in all I have this strong feeling I'm missing something
> obvious. Any clues gratefully received.

The motivation for the fragment header insertion was to be able to 
support stateless IPv6->IPv4 translators (with multi-path routing), such 
as RFC 2765.

Such a translator normally sets DF (don't fragment) in the IPv4 packets. 
But should the IPv4 path MTU drop below 1300 (meaning that a translated 
1280 byte IPv6 packet wouldn't fit), then DF can't be set. In that case 
a unique IP ID field is needed. The fragment header contains a unique ID 
which will be used by the translator.

I hope that helps clarify the motivation,
     Erik

From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Mon Jul 18 16:00:48 2011
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On 2011-07-19 03:51, Brian Haberman wrote:
> 6MAN Participants,
>      During IESG evaluation, a DISCUSS position was raised on whether or
> not several of the bits (4 was suggested) be reserved as a discriminator
> to identify how the flow label is being used.  We had a discussion in
> 2010 on separating the current 20 bits of flow label into sub-fields
> (discussion started around this point in the mailing list archives :
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ipv6/current/msg12031.html).
> 
>      The consensus from that mailing list discussion was to not divide
> the flow label for several reasons:
> 
> 1. Encoding semantics was too complex to handle at line rate
> 
> 2. A 16-bit flow label may be too easy to predict
> 
> 3. These fields are not protected in anyway, so there is little trust in
> the values set
> 
> The above reasons led to the decision to retain the flow label as a
> single 20-bit field as it is currently defined in 3697bis.  Since this
> is a DISCUSS position, the goal of this message is to educate the IESG
> on our line of thinking and allow other WG participants to chime in with
> other reasons I have omitted for keeping the flow label a single entity
> within the IPv6 header.

I would add three points:

4. A somewhat similar idea was proposed to the WG in
draft-carpenter-6man-flow-update-01 (March 2010), although it
only used one bit:

  "o  If the most significant bit (MSB) of the flow label is 0 and the
      flow label is not all-zero, then the remaining 19 bits MUST obey
      the rules of [RFC3697].
   o  If the MSB of the flow label is 1, the remaining 19 bits MAY obey
      a locally defined set of rules and those bits MAY be changed en
      route."

There was painfully strong consensus against this approach at IETF77
and IETF78.

5. The DISCUSS says "This specification uses the full size of the flow label.
Since it has no discriminator to indicate that it is being used for load
balancing, no other use can be made of this field."

It isn't completely true that the draft precludes any other use. It precludes
any other use *without signaling*. If (for example) Intserv/RSVP was used to signal
a flow label value as part of a Tspec, it could have a specific meaning.

6. This is a bit of a FUD argument, but changing the flow label size at this
point might cause interop problems for any existing deployment that conforms
to RFC 3697. The current 3697bis proposal is very unlikely to cause such problems.

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

From fweimer@bfk.de  Tue Jul 19 02:00:33 2011
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From: Florian Weimer <fweimer@bfk.de>
To: Erik Nordmark <nordmark@acm.org>
Subject: Re: PMTUD and MTU < 1280
References: <1310991930.2724.17.camel@karl> <4E24B625.1010301@acm.org>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 09:00:21 +0000
In-Reply-To: <4E24B625.1010301@acm.org> (Erik Nordmark's message of "Mon, 18 Jul 2011 15:39:33 -0700")
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* Erik Nordmark:

> The motivation for the fragment header insertion was to be able to
> support stateless IPv6->IPv4 translators (with multi-path routing),
> such as RFC 2765.
>
> Such a translator normally sets DF (don't fragment) in the IPv4
> packets. But should the IPv4 path MTU drop below 1300 (meaning that a
> translated 1280 byte IPv6 packet wouldn't fit),

Stateless gateways cannot perform path MTU discovery, so they don't know
about path MTU, and need to send packets with DF=3D0.

> then DF can't be set. In that case a unique IP ID field is needed. The
> fragment header contains a unique ID which will be used by the
> translator.

Why wouldn't the translator be able to pull a random ID out of thin air?
How would it generate a unique 16 bit IP ID field from a unique 32 bit
IP ID field?  It can't just discard the upper 16 bits and pretend that
they aren't required to ensure uniqueness.

--=20
Florian Weimer                <fweimer@bfk.de>
BFK edv-consulting GmbH       http://www.bfk.de/
Kriegsstra=DFe 100              tel: +49-721-96201-1
D-76133 Karlsruhe             fax: +49-721-96201-99

From kauer@biplane.com.au  Tue Jul 19 04:26:59 2011
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Subject: Re: PMTUD and MTU < 1280
From: Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au>
To: IETF IPv6 <ipv6@ietf.org>
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On Mon, 2011-07-18 at 15:39 -0700, Erik Nordmark wrote:
> The motivation for the fragment header insertion was to be able to=20
> support stateless IPv6->IPv4 translators (with multi-path routing), such=
=20
> as RFC 2765.
>=20
> Such a translator normally sets DF (don't fragment) in the IPv4 packets.=
=20
> But should the IPv4 path MTU drop below 1300 (meaning that a translated=
=20
> 1280 byte IPv6 packet wouldn't fit), then DF can't be set. In that case=
=20
> a unique IP ID field is needed. The fragment header contains a unique ID=
=20
> which will be used by the translator.
>=20
> I hope that helps clarify the motivation,

Thanks Erik. I've read the explanation in RFC 2765, and sort of see the
motivation, but it doesn't help me understand exactly what the node
should be doing. That is, the "why" is slightly clearer, but the "what"
is not.

What, exactly, is a node supposed to do when it receives a PTB < 1280
after it has sent an ordinary packet?

a) fragment at 1280, regardless of the returned PMTU value

b) fragment so as to produce fragments of sizes equal to or smaller than
the returned PMTU value, but don't "remember" the returned PMTU value

c) create a new packet that is identical to the original packet but has
a fragment header inserted (i.e., forms a fragment sequence one fragment
long, with More-Fragments=3D0 in the fragment header)

d) fail to send the packet

e) something else...?

Only b) seems remotely useful, but it makes a mockery of the idea that a
PMTU of 1280 is required for IPv6.

Regards, K.

--=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)

GPG fingerprint: DA41 51B1 1481 16E1 F7E2 B2E9 3007 14ED 5736 F687
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From fweimer@bfk.de  Tue Jul 19 04:46:41 2011
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From: Florian Weimer <fweimer@bfk.de>
To: Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au>
Subject: Re: PMTUD and MTU < 1280
References: <1310991930.2724.17.camel@karl> <4E24B625.1010301@acm.org> <1311074807.2724.74.camel@karl>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 11:46:33 +0000
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* Karl Auer:

> What, exactly, is a node supposed to do when it receives a PTB < 1280
> after it has sent an ordinary packet?
>
> a) fragment at 1280, regardless of the returned PMTU value
>
> b) fragment so as to produce fragments of sizes equal to or smaller than
> the returned PMTU value, but don't "remember" the returned PMTU value
>
> c) create a new packet that is identical to the original packet but has
> a fragment header inserted (i.e., forms a fragment sequence one fragment
> long, with More-Fragments=3D0 in the fragment header)
>
> d) fail to send the packet
>
> e) something else...?
>
> Only b) seems remotely useful, but it makes a mockery of the idea that a
> PMTU of 1280 is required for IPv6.

b) seems impossible to implement because ICMP messages cannot be
reliably mapped to individual packets.  Thats why d) isn't an option
either (trivial DoS vector).  c) is required by the IPv6 RFC, but
this is broken.  a) is consistent with optional PMTUD, so it seems
the sanest choice.

--=20
Florian Weimer                <fweimer@bfk.de>
BFK edv-consulting GmbH       http://www.bfk.de/
Kriegsstra=DFe 100              tel: +49-721-96201-1
D-76133 Karlsruhe             fax: +49-721-96201-99

From nordmark@acm.org  Tue Jul 19 08:15:26 2011
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Subject: Re: PMTUD and MTU < 1280
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On 7/19/11 4:26 AM, Karl Auer wrote:

> Thanks Erik. I've read the explanation in RFC 2765, and sort of see the
> motivation, but it doesn't help me understand exactly what the node
> should be doing. That is, the "why" is slightly clearer, but the "what"
> is not.
>
> What, exactly, is a node supposed to do when it receives a PTB<  1280
> after it has sent an ordinary packet?
>
> a) fragment at 1280, regardless of the returned PMTU value

Correct; fragment as if the path mtu was 1280.
But in addition, insert a fragment header even for packets that don't 
require fragmentation.

    Erik

> b) fragment so as to produce fragments of sizes equal to or smaller than
> the returned PMTU value, but don't "remember" the returned PMTU value
 >
> c) create a new packet that is identical to the original packet but has
> a fragment header inserted (i.e., forms a fragment sequence one fragment
> long, with More-Fragments=0 in the fragment header)
>
> d) fail to send the packet
>
> e) something else...?
>
> Only b) seems remotely useful, but it makes a mockery of the idea that a
> PMTU of 1280 is required for IPv6.
>
> Regards, K.
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------


From nordmark@acm.org  Tue Jul 19 08:18:56 2011
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On 7/19/11 2:00 AM, Florian Weimer wrote:
> * Erik Nordmark:
>
>> The motivation for the fragment header insertion was to be able to
>> support stateless IPv6->IPv4 translators (with multi-path routing),
>> such as RFC 2765.
>>
>> Such a translator normally sets DF (don't fragment) in the IPv4
>> packets. But should the IPv4 path MTU drop below 1300 (meaning that a
>> translated 1280 byte IPv6 packet wouldn't fit),
>
> Stateless gateways cannot perform path MTU discovery, so they don't know
> about path MTU, and need to send packets with DF=0.

It is the end hosts that perform pmtu discovery; the translator just 
maps from IPv6 to IPv4 and vice versa. Look at RFC 2765 for the details.

>> then DF can't be set. In that case a unique IP ID field is needed. The
>> fragment header contains a unique ID which will be used by the
>> translator.
>
> Why wouldn't the translator be able to pull a random ID out of thin air?

Then different fragmented datagrams between the same source and dest 
traveling through different translators could get the same ID, resulting 
in a risk of (persistent) incorrect reassembly.

> How would it generate a unique 16 bit IP ID field from a unique 32 bit
> IP ID field?  It can't just discard the upper 16 bits and pretend that
> they aren't required to ensure uniqueness.

Sure it can; the assumption is that for each <source, dest, protocol> 
the fragment IDs are assigned sequentially or otherwise can be truncated 
to 16 bits. (I haven't checked what is in RFC on this point though.)

    Erik



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To: Erik Nordmark <nordmark@acm.org>
Subject: Re: PMTUD and MTU < 1280 
From: Philip Homburg <pch-6man@u-1.phicoh.com>
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In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:18:40 -0700 ." <4E25A050.6050102@acm.org> 
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 17:51:05 +0200
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In your letter dated Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:18:40 -0700 you wrote:
>Then different fragmented datagrams between the same source and dest 
>traveling through different translators could get the same ID, resulting 
>in a risk of (persistent) incorrect reassembly.

How can it be persistently incorrect?

If translators generate random numbers the chance of collission depends on
the number of packets being assembled at the same time. So that should be
in the order of 1 in 10000 or so. Of course, this already requires a lot of
reordering.

Then the data will also be covered by a TCP or UDP checksum.

>> How would it generate a unique 16 bit IP ID field from a unique 32 bit
>> IP ID field?  It can't just discard the upper 16 bits and pretend that
>> they aren't required to ensure uniqueness.
>
>Sure it can; the assumption is that for each <source, dest, protocol> 
>the fragment IDs are assigned sequentially or otherwise can be truncated 
>to 16 bits. (I haven't checked what is in RFC on this point though.)

RFC-2460 doesn't seem to require sequential. For IPv4 it is good security
practice to make it random.



From nordmark@acm.org  Tue Jul 19 09:36:39 2011
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To: Philip Homburg <pch-6man@u-1.phicoh.com>
Subject: Re: PMTUD and MTU < 1280
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On 7/19/11 8:51 AM, Philip Homburg wrote:
> In your letter dated Tue, 19 Jul 2011 08:18:40 -0700 you wrote:
>> Then different fragmented datagrams between the same source and dest
>> traveling through different translators could get the same ID, resulting
>> in a risk of (persistent) incorrect reassembly.
>
> How can it be persistently incorrect?

Depends whether it is truly random, or pseudo-random, or random initial 
value plus an monotonic increment.

> If translators generate random numbers the chance of collission depends on
> the number of packets being assembled at the same time. So that should be
> in the order of 1 in 10000 or so. Of course, this already requires a lot of
> reordering.
>
> Then the data will also be covered by a TCP or UDP checksum.
>
>>> How would it generate a unique 16 bit IP ID field from a unique 32 bit
>>> IP ID field?  It can't just discard the upper 16 bits and pretend that
>>> they aren't required to ensure uniqueness.
>>
>> Sure it can; the assumption is that for each<source, dest, protocol>
>> the fragment IDs are assigned sequentially or otherwise can be truncated
>> to 16 bits. (I haven't checked what is in RFC on this point though.)
>
> RFC-2460 doesn't seem to require sequential. For IPv4 it is good security
> practice to make it random.

RFC 2460 doesn't use MUST/SHOULD/MAY RFC 2119 language, hence it is a 
bit hard to gauge the strength of its text.
RFC 2460 does contain this text:
       * "recently" means within the maximum likely lifetime of a packet,
         including transit time from source to destination and time spent
         awaiting reassembly with other fragments of the same packet.
         However, it is not required that a source node know the maximum
         packet lifetime.  Rather, it is assumed that the requirement can
         be met by maintaining the Identification value as a simple, 32-
         bit, "wrap-around" counter, incremented each time a packet must
         be fragmented

   Erik


From pch-b2B3A6689@u-1.phicoh.com  Tue Jul 19 10:32:41 2011
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To: Erik Nordmark <nordmark@acm.org>
Subject: Re: PMTUD and MTU < 1280 
From: Philip Homburg <pch-6man@u-1.phicoh.com>
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In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Jul 2011 09:36:05 -0700 ." <4E25B275.6000700@acm.org> 
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In your letter dated Tue, 19 Jul 2011 09:36:05 -0700 you wrote:
>On 7/19/11 8:51 AM, Philip Homburg wrote:
>> How can it be persistently incorrect?
>
>Depends whether it is truly random, or pseudo-random, or random initial 
>value plus an monotonic increment.

Truly random sounds a bit expensive for a translator. Yes, pseudo-random
is what you want. And any kind of counter, no matter how it is initialized,
doesn't count as random.

>RFC 2460 doesn't use MUST/SHOULD/MAY RFC 2119 language, hence it is a 
>bit hard to gauge the strength of its text.
>RFC 2460 does contain this text:
>       * "recently" means within the maximum likely lifetime of a packet,
>         including transit time from source to destination and time spent
>         awaiting reassembly with other fragments of the same packet.
>         However, it is not required that a source node know the maximum
>         packet lifetime.  Rather, it is assumed that the requirement can
>         be met by maintaining the Identification value as a simple, 32-
>         bit, "wrap-around" counter, incremented each time a packet must
>         be fragmented

I guess the most fun can be had if a host implements a counter, but then
accidentally writes out the counter as a little endian value. 

But I guess that is easy to solve.

Harder to solve would be the case where the IPv6 host is actually a busy
server, say a DNS server, that doesn't want to keep any state and just has
the link MTU set to 1280.



From samita.chakrabarti@ericsson.com  Tue Jul 19 12:38:18 2011
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From: Samita Chakrabarti <samita.chakrabarti@ericsson.com>
To: "int-area@ietf.org" <int-area@ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:38:09 -0400
Subject: Optimization of RFC 4861 for Energy-aware networks
Thread-Topic: Optimization of RFC 4861 for Energy-aware networks
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--_000_16D60F43CA0B724F8052D7E9323565D71E6728BEFCEUSAACMS0715e_
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Hello all:

In 6lowpan workgroup, we developed  draft-ietf-6lowpan-nd which provides op=
timization of IPv6 ND for IEEE802.15.4 devices by avoiding all-node and sol=
icited-node multicast messages for the most part and providing a method for=
 device registration with a IPv6 Border router in a route-over topology  an=
d as well as single-hop topology.

In the last IOT workshop at IETF, it has been brought up that the 6lowpan-n=
d like document may be useful in many other cases where devices are not IEE=
E 802.15.4 devices but the nodes are basically energy-aware and like to sav=
e energy as much as possible.  'Hello' or periodic advertisement/solicitati=
on messages generally work well for line-powered devices, yet reducing the =
periodic messages may be useful for less power consumption for each connect=
ed device and therefore reducing overall energy consumption of the network.=
 Needless to say that the reduced number of messages and avoidance of perio=
dic all-node or solicited-node multicast messages are critical for some low=
-powered device operations. With EUI-64 IID, a DAD is not necessary if the =
deployment may choose to do so.

Here is an attempt to put together the first draft for generic optimization=
 for energy-aware IPv6 networks:


http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-chakrabarti-nordmark-energy-aware-nd-00

Comments are welcome. Would like the help from the community to shape this =
document up for generic energy optimization for IPv6 ND  in applicable case=
s. This document also discusses a way of prefix dissemination for address a=
uto-configuration which may be useful in future home network in a single pr=
efix scenario. With the proliferation of internet-of-things, it might be he=
lpful to do address auto-configuration in some isolated situations.
More work is needed in this document - it is the initial effort to begin wi=
th.

Regards,
-Samita

--_000_16D60F43CA0B724F8052D7E9323565D71E6728BEFCEUSAACMS0715e_
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6002.18457" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D827100019-19072011>Hello=20
all:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D827100019-19072011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D827100019-19072011>In 6lowpa=
n=20
workgroup, we developed&nbsp; draft-ietf-6lowpan-nd which provides optimiza=
tion=20
of IPv6 ND for IEEE802.15.4 devices by avoiding all-node and solicited-node=
=20
multicast messages for the most part and providing a method for device=20
registration with a IPv6 Border router in a route-over topology&nbsp; and a=
s=20
well as single-hop topology.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D827100019-19072011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D827100019-19072011>In the la=
st IOT=20
workshop at IETF, it has been brought up that the 6lowpan-nd like document =
may=20
be useful in many other cases where devices are not IEEE 802.15.4 devices b=
ut=20
the nodes are basically energy-aware and like to save energy as much as=20
possible.&nbsp; 'Hello' or periodic advertisement/solicitation messages=20
generally work well for line-powered devices, yet reducing the periodic mes=
sages=20
may be useful for less power consumption for each connected device and ther=
efore=20
reducing overall energy consumption of the network. Needless to say that th=
e=20
reduced number of messages and avoidance of periodic all-node or solicited-=
node=20
multicast messages are critical for some low-powered device operations. Wit=
h=20
EUI-64 IID, a DAD is not necessary if the deployment may choose to do so.=20
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D827100019-19072011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D827100019-19072011>Here is a=
n attempt=20
to put together the first draft for generic optimization for energy-aware I=
Pv6=20
networks:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D827100019-19072011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D827100019-19072011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D827100019-19072011><A=20
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-chakrabarti-nordmark-energy-aware-=
nd-00">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-chakrabarti-nordmark-energy-aware-n=
d-00</A></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D827100019-19072011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D827100019-19072011>Comments =
are=20
welcome. Would like the help from the community to shape this document up f=
or=20
generic energy optimization for IPv6 ND&nbsp; in applicable cases. This doc=
ument=20
also discusses a way of prefix dissemination for address auto-configuration=
=20
which may be useful in future home network in a single prefix scenario. Wit=
h the=20
proliferation of internet-of-things, it might be helpful to do address=20
auto-configuration in some isolated situations.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D827100019-19072011>More work=
 is=20
needed&nbsp;in this document - it is the initial effort to begin=20
with.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D827100019-19072011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D827100019-19072011>Regards,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D827100019-19072011>-Samita</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

--_000_16D60F43CA0B724F8052D7E9323565D71E6728BEFCEUSAACMS0715e_--

From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Tue Jul 19 18:02:44 2011
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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:02:45 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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To: Erik Nordmark <nordmark@acm.org>
Subject: Re: PMTUD and MTU < 1280
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On 2011-07-20 03:15, Erik Nordmark wrote:
> On 7/19/11 4:26 AM, Karl Auer wrote:
> 
>> Thanks Erik. I've read the explanation in RFC 2765, and sort of see the
>> motivation, but it doesn't help me understand exactly what the node
>> should be doing. That is, the "why" is slightly clearer, but the "what"
>> is not.
>>
>> What, exactly, is a node supposed to do when it receives a PTB<  1280
>> after it has sent an ordinary packet?
>>
>> a) fragment at 1280, regardless of the returned PMTU value
> 
> Correct; fragment as if the path mtu was 1280.
> But in addition, insert a fragment header even for packets that don't
> require fragmentation.

It's always been my understanding that an interface sending IPv6 packets
MUST implement some (unspecified) form of framentation and reassembly
*below layer 3* if the link MTU is less than 1280. In other words a
PTB for a packet of length 1280 is an unrecoverable violation.

For example, if you're tunneling IPv6 over an IPv4 network whose PMTU (to
the other end of the tunnel) is, to take a random example, 576, the tunnel
end points could use IPv4 fragmentation and reassembly to provide a 1280 MTU
for the IPv6 traffic.

Of course this doesn't cover the NAT64 case; so what? NAT breaks many things.
We just have to rely on the real world, where the layer 2 link MTU is pretty
much always 1500 today.

    Brian

From nordmark@acm.org  Tue Jul 19 22:28:19 2011
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Subject: Re: PMTUD and MTU < 1280
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On 7/19/11 6:02 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

>> Correct; fragment as if the path mtu was 1280.
>> But in addition, insert a fragment header even for packets that don't
>> require fragmentation.
>
> It's always been my understanding that an interface sending IPv6 packets
> MUST implement some (unspecified) form of framentation and reassembly
> *below layer 3* if the link MTU is less than 1280. In other words a
> PTB for a packet of length 1280 is an unrecoverable violation.
 >
> For example, if you're tunneling IPv6 over an IPv4 network whose PMTU (to
> the other end of the tunnel) is, to take a random example, 576, the tunnel
> end points could use IPv4 fragmentation and reassembly to provide a 1280 MTU
> for the IPv6 traffic.

That would be true for tunneling IPv6 over IPv4.
But the topic was the wording in RFC 2460 that was added to make it 
feasible to build (stateless) translators between IPv6 and IPv4.

> Of course this doesn't cover the NAT64 case; so what? NAT breaks many things.
> We just have to rely on the real world, where the layer 2 link MTU is pretty
> much always 1500 today.

We do have language in RFC 2460 to handle this particular case.

    Erik

From pch-b2B3A6689@u-1.phicoh.com  Wed Jul 20 01:09:33 2011
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To: Erik Nordmark <nordmark@acm.org>
Subject: Re: PMTUD and MTU < 1280 
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In your letter dated Tue, 19 Jul 2011 22:28:03 -0700 you wrote:
>On 7/19/11 6:02 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> For example, if you're tunneling IPv6 over an IPv4 network whose PMTU (to
>> the other end of the tunnel) is, to take a random example, 576, the tunnel
>> end points could use IPv4 fragmentation and reassembly to provide a 1280 MTU
>> for the IPv6 traffic.
>
>That would be true for tunneling IPv6 over IPv4.
>But the topic was the wording in RFC 2460 that was added to make it 
>feasible to build (stateless) translators between IPv6 and IPv4.

Personally, I think it is just bad design to require extra complexity in
every IPv6 stack in the world, just to accodate a transition technology
that essentially hasn't been used in the last 15 years, that provides
no benefit to hosts that allocate fragment IDs randomly (as is good
security practice for IPv4) and provides marginal benefits for hosts
that allocate IDs sequentially.

I would suggest that the stateless translator protocols be updated to not
use this feature and allocate a random 16-bit ID themselves. And schedule 
the feature to be remove from the IPv6 standard.



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In your letter dated Thu, 07 Jul 2011 13:41:41 -0700 you wrote:
>A new version of I-D, draft-nordmark-6man-impatient-nud-01.txt has been 
>successfully submitted by Erik Nordmark and posted to the IETF repository.

A few remarks about this draft:
1) It must be somewhere in RFC-4861, but it is not easy to find and it's 
   probably best to help implementors here: if a NCE for a router transitions
   to UNREACHABLE state and there are still default routers in REACHABLE,
   STALE, DELAY, or PROBE state then delete all destination Cache entries
   for that router.
2) Similar for redirect. If there is a Destination Cache entry and it resulted
   from a redirect, then delete it. Also update the host state description 
   for the destination cache to include a redirected flag.
3) As long as the the NCE is in UNREACHABLE state, there won't be any 
   Destination Unreachable ICMPs. I think there are two ways of dealing with
   that:
   - delete the NCE entry after some time. This requires the operator to
     balance between keeping the entry longer of getting timely ICMPs.
   - After while, just send ICMPs back while forwarding the packet. I don't
     know if anybody ever did this. This may result in duplicate packets. But
     there is something wrong with the connection anyhow.

In general I think this a good approach.

From nordmark@acm.org  Wed Jul 20 10:18:10 2011
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On 7/20/11 9:17 AM, Philip Homburg wrote:
> In your letter dated Thu, 07 Jul 2011 13:41:41 -0700 you wrote:
>> A new version of I-D, draft-nordmark-6man-impatient-nud-01.txt has been
>> successfully submitted by Erik Nordmark and posted to the IETF repository.

Thanks for your review.

> A few remarks about this draft:
> 1) It must be somewhere in RFC-4861, but it is not easy to find and it's
>     probably best to help implementors here: if a NCE for a router transitions
>     to UNREACHABLE state and there are still default routers in REACHABLE,
>     STALE, DELAY, or PROBE state then delete all destination Cache entries
>     for that router.

The RFC in section 5.2 says to redo next-hop selection; it doesn't say 
to delete destination cache entries anywhere AFAIK.
That should be sufficient even with the introduction of the UNREACHABLE 
state.

> 2) Similar for redirect. If there is a Destination Cache entry and it resulted
>     from a redirect, then delete it. Also update the host state description
>     for the destination cache to include a redirected flag.

I don't understand why this draft requires adding a redirect flag in RFC 
4861. While such a flag might be useful in an implementation, it seems 
to be orthogonal to these proposed changes; whether the NCE becomes 
deleted (as in 4861 today) or marked as UNREACHABLE (with these changes) 
the same next-hop selection needs to be triggered. (Perhaps that should 
be stated more explicitly in the draft.)

> 3) As long as the the NCE is in UNREACHABLE state, there won't be any
>     Destination Unreachable ICMPs.

Good point - I didn't realize the exact wording in section 7.2.2.
FWIW it says
    If no Neighbor Advertisement is received after MAX_MULTICAST_SOLICIT
    solicitations, address resolution has failed.  The sender MUST return
    ICMP destination unreachable indications with code 3 (Address
    Unreachable) for each packet queued awaiting address resolution.

> I think there are two ways of dealing with
>     that:
>     - delete the NCE entry after some time. This requires the operator to
>       balance between keeping the entry longer of getting timely ICMPs.
>     - After while, just send ICMPs back while forwarding the packet. I don't
>       know if anybody ever did this. This may result in duplicate packets. But
>       there is something wrong with the connection anyhow.

We could do the latter my augmenting the above text to also say to send 
ICMP destination unreachables (with code 3) when the packet is sent 
using a NCE that is in UNREACHABLE state.

    Erik

> In general I think this a good approach.
>


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In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:17:51 -0700 ." <4E270DBF.2020001@acm.org> 
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 19:58:05 +0200
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In your letter dated Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:17:51 -0700 you wrote:
>> A few remarks about this draft:
>> 1) It must be somewhere in RFC-4861, but it is not easy to find and it's
>>     probably best to help implementors here: if a NCE for a router transitio
>ns
>>     to UNREACHABLE state and there are still default routers in REACHABLE,
>>     STALE, DELAY, or PROBE state then delete all destination Cache entries
>>     for that router.
>
>The RFC in section 5.2 says to redo next-hop selection; it doesn't say 
>to delete destination cache entries anywhere AFAIK.
>That should be sufficient even with the introduction of the UNREACHABLE 
>state.

I don't think the algorithm in 5.2 works all that well. In RFC-4861, when
NUD has failed, the NCE is deleted. However, this does not actually
signal anything to Destination Cache entries. There is only some wording
that some things need to be done. Without any specification on how that is
triggered exactly.

Deleting, or otherwise marking as invalid the DCEs that correspond to the 
failing router is the easiest way to get the right result.

>> 2) Similar for redirect. If there is a Destination Cache entry and it result
>ed
>     from a redirect, then delete it. Also update the host state description
>>     for the destination cache to include a redirected flag.
>
>I don't understand why this draft requires adding a redirect flag in RFC 
>4861. While such a flag might be useful in an implementation, it seems 
>to be orthogonal to these proposed changes; whether the NCE becomes 
>deleted (as in 4861 today) or marked as UNREACHABLE (with these changes) 
>the same next-hop selection needs to be triggered. (Perhaps that should 
>be stated more explicitly in the draft.)

In general, you can't figure out if NCE entry is the result of a redirect.
You would have to examine the DCE to see if the destination is off-link.

The easiest way is to always delete DCEs that refer to the NCE. The
conceptual Destination Cache doesn't have to concept of entries that need
next-hop selection.

Now, this may not be the place to actually update all those parts of RFC-4861.
But giving some hints on how things can be implemented may help.

>We could do the latter my augmenting the above text to also say to send 
>ICMP destination unreachables (with code 3) when the packet is sent 
>using a NCE that is in UNREACHABLE state.

While dropping the packet or also forwarding it using the last known MAC?



From rja.lists@gmail.com  Wed Jul 20 14:35:39 2011
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From: RJ Atkinson <rja.lists@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: PMTUD and MTU < 1280  
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 17:35:31 -0400
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Earlier, Brian Carpenter wrote:
> It's always been my understanding that an interface sending IPv6 =
packets
> MUST implement some (unspecified) form of framentation and reassembly
> *below layer 3* if the link MTU is less than 1280. In other words a
> PTB for a packet of length 1280 is an unrecoverable violation.

I also understand that the IPv6 specifications say that=20
the minimum IPv6 MTU for any link type is 1280 bytes.

I am not sure the specs insist that an IPv6 implementation=20
must treat an ICMPv6 Packet-Too-Big for less than 1280 bytes=20
as "unrecoverable". (I haven't re-read the IPv6 specs recently.)

I understand that some deployed IPv6 implementations will
tolerate and support Packet-Too-Big messages with a link MTU
at least as small as 576 -- following the Postel Principle
of "generous in what one accepts" and being practical about
several radio link technologies that do not support a
1280 byte IP MTU.  Such implementations are more resilient
than the IPv6 specifications require; this is helpful.

> For example, if you're tunneling IPv6 over an IPv4 network whose PMTU
> (to the other end of the tunnel) is, to take a random example, 576,
> the tunnel end points could use IPv4 fragmentation and reassembly
> to provide a 1280 MTU for the IPv6 traffic.

One could do that.  Over low-bandwidth radio links the overhead of doing
that would effectively make it preferable to deploy an IPv6::IPv4 =
translator
or some other protocol translation scheme (and continue with IPv4 =
forever,=20
at least on that link) than to encapsulate IPv6 in anything more than=20
just the radio link layer just to meet the 1280 byte requirement.

As I recall, I noted this problem to the IPv6 WG back in the middle =
1990s.[1]
Sadly. that prediction seems to have come true.  So I understand that =
today,=20
over some deployed radio link technologies, several IPv6 implementations =
use=20
the raw link encapsulation and fragment IPv6 into chunks at that raw =
link
MTU size (even though that is below 1280 bytes).

> Of course this doesn't cover the NAT64 case; so what? NAT breaks many =
things.
> We just have to rely on the real world, where the layer 2 link MTU is =
pretty
> much always 1500 today.

I agree that the IEEE standard Ethernet link MTU is very widely deployed
today.  Many, possibly most, Ethernet switches also support a link MTU
somewhat over 9K bytes. =20

I'm told that SONET links most commonly use the old FDDI link MTU =
(roughly 4500 bytes). =20
ATM links, which seem to be going away, most commonly support an IP MTU =
near
9180 bytes (which value seems to have driven the Jumbo Ethernet =
implementations). =20
However, there are still a number of link types, mostly radio link types=20=

(as near as I can tell), that have a link MTU well below 1280 bytes.  As=20=

near as I can tell, IPv6 would have been much better off selecting 512 =
bytes
as the minimum IPv6 MTU size.[1]

It is very unfortunate that IPv6 specifies this very large minimum MTU =
size
(i.e. 1280 bytes), because it is impeding the ability of various =
organisations=20
to deploy IPv6 on a number of existing links that already support IPv4.

This is just the kind of obstacle to deployment that IPv6 does not need.
Specifying the value 1280 is not solving a real technical problem, IMHO. =
=20
A lower value would facilitate faster, easier, simpler, and more =
widespread=20
deployment and use of IPv6, IMHO.

IPv4 can run over nearly any link without protocol changes or requiring
special case handling.  Sadly, IPv6 cannot make the same claim.  One =
hopes=20
IPv6 implementers will be tolerant of IPv6 MTUs below 1280 bytes, =
because
they do exist in the deployed world and aren't going away anytime soon.

Yours,

Ran Atkinson

[1] =
<ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf-online-proceedings/94dec/area.and.wg.reports/ipng=
/ipngwg/ipngwg-minutes-94dec.txt>=

From jhw@apple.com  Wed Jul 20 14:44:28 2011
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Subject: Re: PMTUD and MTU < 1280
From: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
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On Jul 20, 2011, at 14:35 , RJ Atkinson wrote:

> One hopes IPv6 implementers will be tolerant of IPv6 MTUs below 1280 bytes, because they do exist in the deployed world and aren't going away anytime soon.

Those hopes are not well placed.

I am aware of at least one packet filter implementation-- which might be refined in the future, one hopes, to conform fully with RFC 6092-- that treats this behavior as a resource exhaustion attack and drops flows accordingly.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, core os networking




From rute.sofia@ulusofona.pt  Wed Jul 20 16:51:29 2011
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Subject: Re: Optimization of RFC 4861 for Energy-aware networks
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------040300040306050907070905
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Hello Samita,

I will contribute, but do you have a specific deadline for us to send 
you comments?

BR,
Rute Sofia

On 07/19/2011 08:38 PM, Samita Chakrabarti wrote:
> Hello all:
> In 6lowpan workgroup, we developed  draft-ietf-6lowpan-nd which 
> provides optimization of IPv6 ND for IEEE802.15.4 devices by avoiding 
> all-node and solicited-node multicast messages for the most part and 
> providing a method for device registration with a IPv6 Border router 
> in a route-over topology  and as well as single-hop topology.
> In the last IOT workshop at IETF, it has been brought up that the 
> 6lowpan-nd like document may be useful in many other cases where 
> devices are not IEEE 802.15.4 devices but the nodes are basically 
> energy-aware and like to save energy as much as possible.  'Hello' or 
> periodic advertisement/solicitation messages generally work well for 
> line-powered devices, yet reducing the periodic messages may be useful 
> for less power consumption for each connected device and therefore 
> reducing overall energy consumption of the network. Needless to say 
> that the reduced number of messages and avoidance of periodic all-node 
> or solicited-node multicast messages are critical for some low-powered 
> device operations. With EUI-64 IID, a DAD is not necessary if the 
> deployment may choose to do so.
> Here is an attempt to put together the first draft for generic 
> optimization for energy-aware IPv6 networks:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-chakrabarti-nordmark-energy-aware-nd-00
> Comments are welcome. Would like the help from the community to shape 
> this document up for generic energy optimization for IPv6 ND  in 
> applicable cases. This document also discusses a way of prefix 
> dissemination for address auto-configuration which may be useful in 
> future home network in a single prefix scenario. With the 
> proliferation of internet-of-things, it might be helpful to do address 
> auto-configuration in some isolated situations.
> More work is needed in this document - it is the initial effort to 
> begin with.
> Regards,
> -Samita
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------


-- 
Rute Sofia, PhD (rute.sofia@ulusofona.pt)
Scientific Director for Technology
Research Unit in Informatics Systems and Technologies (SITI)
Coordinator of the Internet Architecture and Networking Lab (IAN Lab)
University Lusofona, Portugal
rute.sofia@ulusofona.pt

http://siti.ulusofona.pt
Tel.: 217 515 500 Fax: 21 757 7006
.......................................................


--------------040300040306050907070905
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
    Hello Samita,<br>
    <br>
    I will contribute, but do you have a specific deadline for us to
    send you comments?<br>
    <br>
    BR,<br>
    Rute Sofia<br>
    <br>
    On 07/19/2011 08:38 PM, Samita Chakrabarti wrote:
    <blockquote
cite="mid:16D60F43CA0B724F8052D7E9323565D71E6728BEFC@EUSAACMS0715.eamcs.ericsson.se"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=ISO-8859-1">
      <meta content="MSHTML 6.00.6002.18457" name="GENERATOR">
      <div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span class="827100019-19072011">Hello
            all:</span></font></div>
      <div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span class="827100019-19072011"></span></font>&nbsp;</div>
      <div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span class="827100019-19072011">In
            6lowpan workgroup, we developed&nbsp; draft-ietf-6lowpan-nd which
            provides optimization of IPv6 ND for IEEE802.15.4 devices by
            avoiding all-node and solicited-node multicast messages for
            the most part and providing a method for device registration
            with a IPv6 Border router in a route-over topology&nbsp; and as
            well as single-hop topology.</span></font></div>
      <div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span class="827100019-19072011"></span></font>&nbsp;</div>
      <div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span class="827100019-19072011">In
            the last IOT workshop at IETF, it has been brought up that
            the 6lowpan-nd like document may be useful in many other
            cases where devices are not IEEE 802.15.4 devices but the
            nodes are basically energy-aware and like to save energy as
            much as possible.&nbsp; 'Hello' or periodic
            advertisement/solicitation messages generally work well for
            line-powered devices, yet reducing the periodic messages may
            be useful for less power consumption for each connected
            device and therefore reducing overall energy consumption of
            the network. Needless to say that the reduced number of
            messages and avoidance of periodic all-node or
            solicited-node multicast messages are critical for some
            low-powered device operations. With EUI-64 IID, a DAD is not
            necessary if the deployment may choose to do so. </span></font></div>
      <div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span class="827100019-19072011"></span></font>&nbsp;</div>
      <div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span class="827100019-19072011">Here
            is an attempt to put together the first draft for generic
            optimization for energy-aware IPv6 networks:</span></font></div>
      <div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span class="827100019-19072011"></span></font>&nbsp;</div>
      <div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span class="827100019-19072011"></span></font>&nbsp;</div>
      <div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span class="827100019-19072011"><a
              moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-chakrabarti-nordmark-energy-aware-nd-00">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-chakrabarti-nordmark-energy-aware-nd-00</a></span></font></div>
      <div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span class="827100019-19072011"></span></font>&nbsp;</div>
      <div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span class="827100019-19072011">Comments
            are welcome. Would like the help from the community to shape
            this document up for generic energy optimization for IPv6
            ND&nbsp; in applicable cases. This document also discusses a way
            of prefix dissemination for address auto-configuration which
            may be useful in future home network in a single prefix
            scenario. With the proliferation of internet-of-things, it
            might be helpful to do address auto-configuration in some
            isolated situations.</span></font></div>
      <div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span class="827100019-19072011">More
            work is needed&nbsp;in this document - it is the initial effort
            to begin with.</span></font></div>
      <div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span class="827100019-19072011"></span></font>&nbsp;</div>
      <div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span class="827100019-19072011">Regards,</span></font></div>
      <div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span class="827100019-19072011">-Samita</span></font></div>
      <pre wrap="">
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
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    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Rute Sofia, PhD (<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rute.sofia@ulusofona.pt">rute.sofia@ulusofona.pt</a>)
Scientific Director for Technology
Research Unit in Informatics Systems and Technologies (SITI)
Coordinator of the Internet Architecture and Networking Lab (IAN Lab)
University Lusofona, Portugal
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rute.sofia@ulusofona.pt">rute.sofia@ulusofona.pt</a>

<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://siti.ulusofona.pt">http://siti.ulusofona.pt</a>
Tel.: 217 515 500 Fax: 21 757 7006
.......................................................
</pre>
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From samita.chakrabarti@ericsson.com  Wed Jul 20 17:18:10 2011
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From: Samita Chakrabarti <samita.chakrabarti@ericsson.com>
To: "rute.sofia@ulusofona.pt" <rute.sofia@ulusofona.pt>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 20:17:58 -0400
Subject: RE: Optimization of RFC 4861 for Energy-aware networks
Thread-Topic: Optimization of RFC 4861 for Energy-aware networks
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--_000_16D60F43CA0B724F8052D7E9323565D71E672DDA1FEUSAACMS0715e_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Hi Rute,

I will contribute, but do you have a specific deadline for us to send you c=
omments?

BR,
Rute Sofia
[[SC ] ]  Thanks.    If you provide comments in next few weeks, that will b=
e good, I believe.

-Samita

On 07/19/2011 08:38 PM, Samita Chakrabarti wrote:
Hello all:

In 6lowpan workgroup, we developed  draft-ietf-6lowpan-nd which provides op=
timization of IPv6 ND for IEEE802.15.4 devices by avoiding all-node and sol=
icited-node multicast messages for the most part and providing a method for=
 device registration with a IPv6 Border router in a route-over topology  an=
d as well as single-hop topology.

In the last IOT workshop at IETF, it has been brought up that the 6lowpan-n=
d like document may be useful in many other cases where devices are not IEE=
E 802.15.4 devices but the nodes are basically energy-aware and like to sav=
e energy as much as possible.  'Hello' or periodic advertisement/solicitati=
on messages generally work well for line-powered devices, yet reducing the =
periodic messages may be useful for less power consumption for each connect=
ed device and therefore reducing overall energy consumption of the network.=
 Needless to say that the reduced number of messages and avoidance of perio=
dic all-node or solicited-node multicast messages are critical for some low=
-powered device operations. With EUI-64 IID, a DAD is not necessary if the =
deployment may choose to do so.

Here is an attempt to put together the first draft for generic optimization=
 for energy-aware IPv6 networks:


http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-chakrabarti-nordmark-energy-aware-nd-00

Comments are welcome. Would like the help from the community to shape this =
document up for generic energy optimization for IPv6 ND  in applicable case=
s. This document also discusses a way of prefix dissemination for address a=
uto-configuration which may be useful in future home network in a single pr=
efix scenario. With the proliferation of internet-of-things, it might be he=
lpful to do address auto-configuration in some isolated situations.
More work is needed in this document - it is the initial effort to begin wi=
th.

Regards,
-Samita


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--
Rute Sofia, PhD (rute.sofia@ulusofona.pt<mailto:rute.sofia@ulusofona.pt>)
Scientific Director for Technology
Research Unit in Informatics Systems and Technologies (SITI)
Coordinator of the Internet Architecture and Networking Lab (IAN Lab)
University Lusofona, Portugal
rute.sofia@ulusofona.pt<mailto:rute.sofia@ulusofona.pt>

http://siti.ulusofona.pt
Tel.: 217 515 500 Fax: 21 757 7006
.......................................................


--_000_16D60F43CA0B724F8052D7E9323565D71E672DDA1FEUSAACMS0715e_
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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6002.18457" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY text=3D#000000 bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SP=
AN=20
class=3D620205323-20072011>Hi Rute,</SPAN></FONT></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV>I will contribute, but do you have a specific deadline for us to sen=
d you=20
  comments?<BR><BR>BR,<BR>Rute Sofia<BR><SPAN class=3D620205323-20072011><F=
ONT=20
  face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>[[SC ] ]&nbsp; Thanks.&nbsp; &nbsp;=
 If you=20
  provide comments in next few weeks, that will be good, I=20
  believe.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D620205323-20072011></SPAN><BR><SPAN=20
  class=3D620205323-20072011><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>-Samita&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN><BR><BR>On 07/19/2011 08:38 PM, Samit=
a=20
  Chakrabarti wrote: </DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  cite=3Dmid:16D60F43CA0B724F8052D7E9323565D71E6728BEFC@EUSAACMS0715.eamcs.=
ericsson.se=20
  type=3D"cite">
    <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6002.18457" name=3DGENERATOR>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D827100019-19072011>Hello=
=20
    all:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D827100019-19072011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D827100019-19072011>In 6l=
owpan=20
    workgroup, we developed&nbsp; draft-ietf-6lowpan-nd which provides=20
    optimization of IPv6 ND for IEEE802.15.4 devices by avoiding all-node a=
nd=20
    solicited-node multicast messages for the most part and providing a met=
hod=20
    for device registration with a IPv6 Border router in a route-over=20
    topology&nbsp; and as well as single-hop topology.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D827100019-19072011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D827100019-19072011>In th=
e last IOT=20
    workshop at IETF, it has been brought up that the 6lowpan-nd like docum=
ent=20
    may be useful in many other cases where devices are not IEEE 802.15.4=20
    devices but the nodes are basically energy-aware and like to save energ=
y as=20
    much as possible.&nbsp; 'Hello' or periodic advertisement/solicitation=
=20
    messages generally work well for line-powered devices, yet reducing the=
=20
    periodic messages may be useful for less power consumption for each=20
    connected device and therefore reducing overall energy consumption of t=
he=20
    network. Needless to say that the reduced number of messages and avoida=
nce=20
    of periodic all-node or solicited-node multicast messages are critical =
for=20
    some low-powered device operations. With EUI-64 IID, a DAD is not neces=
sary=20
    if the deployment may choose to do so. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D827100019-19072011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D827100019-19072011>Here =
is an=20
    attempt to put together the first draft for generic optimization for=20
    energy-aware IPv6 networks:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D827100019-19072011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D827100019-19072011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D827100019-19072011><A=20
    href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-chakrabarti-nordmark-energy-aw=
are-nd-00"=20
    moz-do-not-send=3D"true">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-chakrabarti-n=
ordmark-energy-aware-nd-00</A></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D827100019-19072011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D827100019-19072011>Comme=
nts are=20
    welcome. Would like the help from the community to shape this document =
up=20
    for generic energy optimization for IPv6 ND&nbsp; in applicable cases. =
This=20
    document also discusses a way of prefix dissemination for address=20
    auto-configuration which may be useful in future home network in a sing=
le=20
    prefix scenario. With the proliferation of internet-of-things, it might=
 be=20
    helpful to do address auto-configuration in some isolated=20
    situations.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D827100019-19072011>More =
work is=20
    needed&nbsp;in this document - it is the initial effort to begin=20
    with.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D827100019-19072011></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D827100019-19072011>Regards,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D827100019-19072011>-Samita</SPAN></FONT></DIV><PRE wrap=3D""><F=
IELDSET class=3DmimeAttachmentHeader></FIELDSET>
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</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><PRE class=3Dmoz-signature cols=3D"72">--=20
Rute Sofia, PhD (<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated href=3D"mailto:rute.so=
fia@ulusofona.pt">rute.sofia@ulusofona.pt</A>)
Scientific Director for Technology
Research Unit in Informatics Systems and Technologies (SITI)
Coordinator of the Internet Architecture and Networking Lab (IAN Lab)
University Lusofona, Portugal
<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated href=3D"mailto:rute.sofia@ulusofona.pt"=
>rute.sofia@ulusofona.pt</A>

<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext href=3D"http://siti.ulusofona.pt">http://s=
iti.ulusofona.pt</A>
Tel.: 217 515 500 Fax: 21 757 7006
.......................................................
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Wed Jul 20 18:12:20 2011
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Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 13:12:18 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Hi,

In some ways I'd rather defer discussion of this draft until 6renum has
clarified the requirements somewhat. However, two comments for now:

1. I don't find that this draft, admittedly preliminary, clearly defines
what a tokenised IID is. If it just means a configured IID, why not say so?

2. I see a major security issue in that a malicious host could apparently
give itself any IID that it wants - in the example in the draft, any host
could declare itself to be the DNS server. There needs to be an anti-spoofing
mechanism.

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

From narten@us.ibm.com  Wed Jul 20 19:37:01 2011
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To: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
Subject: Re: /64 ND DoS
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References: <m1QgYeD-0001i9C@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <D3B8FAA9-E63B-4D23-BC5B-B172E5089520@gmail.com> <m1Qgudc-0001hpC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <CALo9H1ap+7Bb+1QDJF0Pj4j2YcaX+-wQUD6=J=D0LR4BrYdqqg@mail.gmail.com> <1E2E260F-B607-4AFB-BF82-2C48D0363BFE@puck.nether.net>
Comments: In-reply-to Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> message dated "Wed, 13 Jul 2011 13:01:40 -0400."
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:36:40 -0400
From: Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com>
Cc: ipv6@ietf.org, Arturo Servin <arturo.servin@gmail.com>
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playing catchup ...

Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> writes:

> To (re)state the biggest design issue with NDP again, it's outlined
>  in 7.3 of the v6nd-enhance draft:

> -- snip --
> 7.3.  NDP Protocol Gratuitous NA

>    Per RFC 4861, section 7.2.5 and 7.2.6 [RFC4861] requires that
>    unsolicited neighbor advertisements result in the receiver setting
>    it's neighbor cache entry to STALE, kicking off the resolution of the
>    neighbor using neighbor solicitation.
> -- snip --

> Forcing an entry to STALE if you see an unsolicited NA (assuming it
>  matches the existing NA) seems unnecessary and counterproductive as
>  it can interrupt traffic to existing hosts.

It shouldn't.

A STALE entry is still usable, but it's a flag that says "verify that
this entry is still correct, it may no longer be correct". You then
wait a little while, and hope that TCP connections that are flowing
through the specific entry get ACKs for the data they are sending,
which in turn should get the state changed back to VALID. All without
any additional ND traffic.

Only if a node is sending traffic to a neighbor in a STALE state, and
no TCP "forward progress" indications (i.e. ACKs) are updating the
entry, then you send out a a (unicast) NS.

Changing the above text in RFC cited above would significantly change
the robustness of NUD. One would no longer detect failures where
connectivity between neighbors is only unidirectional.

I also do not understand how such a change would actually address the
problem described in draft-gashinsky-v6nd-enhance-00.txt.

Thomas

From pch-b2B3A6689@u-1.phicoh.com  Wed Jul 20 23:31:08 2011
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To: RJ Atkinson <rja.lists@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: PMTUD and MTU < 1280 
From: Philip Homburg <pch-6man@u-1.phicoh.com>
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In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Jul 2011 17:35:31 -0400 ." <264DF4B8-A7F3-4DB3-B58D-BBAC2A48B470@gmail.com> 
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In your letter dated Wed, 20 Jul 2011 17:35:31 -0400 you wrote:
>I am not sure the specs insist that an IPv6 implementation 
>must treat an ICMPv6 Packet-Too-Big for less than 1280 bytes 
>as "unrecoverable". (I haven't re-read the IPv6 specs recently.)

Some services, like big DNS server cannot afford to do PMTU. It requires them
to store the original DNS reply just in case an ICMP comes back.

Without that, the host will see that its first request fails and has to retry.
Over time, this will happen again and again because big servers cannot
maintain all PMTU state forever.

>It is very unfortunate that IPv6 specifies this very large minimum MTU size
>(i.e. 1280 bytes), because it is impeding the ability of various organisations
> 
>to deploy IPv6 on a number of existing links that already support IPv4.

The root cause of this are routers that don't do fragmentation. Any lower
minimum MTU would force any host that cannot maintain PMTU state to fragment
in small sizes, which is bad for the 99% of the world that has MTUs bigger
than 1280.

I'd say that for any link that is mostly reliable, adding a fragmentation
layer should not cost more than 16 bits. There are even the payload length,
flow label and traffic class fields ready to be abused if need be. So
it can we without any increase in length.

>IPv4 can run over nearly any link without protocol changes or requiring
>special case handling.  Sadly, IPv6 cannot make the same claim.  One hopes 
>IPv6 implementers will be tolerant of IPv6 MTUs below 1280 bytes, because
>they do exist in the deployed world and aren't going away anytime soon.

I don't think that silently doing something that goes against the standard
is a good thing.



From marka@isc.org  Thu Jul 21 00:13:08 2011
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From: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
References: <m1Qjmmi-0001ibC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net>
Subject: Re: PMTUD and MTU < 1280 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Jul 2011 08:30:51 +0200." <m1Qjmmi-0001ibC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 17:12:48 +1000
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In message <m1Qjmmi-0001ibC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net>, Philip Homburg writes:
> In your letter dated Wed, 20 Jul 2011 17:35:31 -0400 you wrote:
> >I am not sure the specs insist that an IPv6 implementation 
> >must treat an ICMPv6 Packet-Too-Big for less than 1280 bytes 
> >as "unrecoverable". (I haven't re-read the IPv6 specs recently.)
> 
> Some services, like big DNS server cannot afford to do PMTU. It requires them
> to store the original DNS reply just in case an ICMP comes back.

This was originally noted in draft-ietf-ipngwg-bsd-frag-00 (January
1998) and became IPV6_USE_MIN_MTU (RFC 3542, May 2003).  Now if we
can just get it into POSIX ....

And, yes, nameservers do set this option.  FreeBSD's implementation
however is partially broken.  See:
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=158307.

> Without that, the host will see that its first request fails and has to retry
> .
> Over time, this will happen again and again because big servers cannot
> maintain all PMTU state forever.

It takes multiple requests usually and yes the state does get lost
within minutes on busy nameservers.

What should have been specified is that hosts need to fragment
packets into roughly equal sizes fragments.  This reduces the
probabilty of having to deal with multiple PTB packets.

Mark
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: marka@isc.org

From nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com  Thu Jul 21 21:37:43 2011
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Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 21:37:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com
Subject: IPv6 Diagnostic Option
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--0-1419993237-1311309458=:77451
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Hello Folks,

Would love to get feedback on an Internet Draft we have submitted.  The issue we are addressing is that the IP Identification field which was available with IPv4 in the main header is available with IPv6 only in the Fragment Header.

Please see:

http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-elkins-6man-ipv6-diagnostic-header-00.txt

We do have a revision (version 01) which is attached.  The submission system is closed so we will update it formally when it reopens on July 25th.  

Thanks!
Nalini Elkins
Inside Products, Inc.
(831) 659-8360
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--0-1419993237-1311309458=:77451--

From roland.bless@kit.edu  Thu Jul 21 22:41:54 2011
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Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 07:41:45 +0200
From: Roland Bless <roland.bless@kit.edu>
Organization: Institute of Telematics, Karlsruhe Institute of Technology (KIT)
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Hi,

On 22.07.2011 06:38, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com wrote:
> Would love to get feedback on an Internet Draft we have submitted.

> The issue we are addressing is that the IP Identification field which
> was available with IPv4 in the main header is available with IPv6
> only in the Fragment Header.

I don't think that your proposed solution is necessary, since
IPv6 has the Flow Label, that - if set by the source - may be
very well suited for your purpose (tracking flows along a path).
Please see http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-flow-3697bis/
for more details.

Kind regards,
 Roland

From ek@google.com  Thu Jul 21 23:35:41 2011
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPv6 Diagnostic Option
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To: Roland Bless <roland.bless@kit.edu>
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> I don't think that your proposed solution is necessary, since
> IPv6 has the Flow Label, that - if set by the source - may be
> very well suited for your purpose (tracking flows along a path).
> Please see http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-flow-3697bis/
> for more details.

Agreed.

I also think use of the flowlabel will prove operationally simpler.
Some devices drop IPv6 packets that have any kind of headers, even
fragment headers, since they lack the ability to look beyond these
headers at line rate.

From roland.bless@kit.edu  Fri Jul 22 00:59:56 2011
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Hi Erik,

On 22.07.2011 08:35, Erik Kline wrote:
>> I don't think that your proposed solution is necessary, since
>> IPv6 has the Flow Label, that - if set by the source - may be
>> very well suited for your purpose (tracking flows along a path).
>> Please see http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-flow-3697bis/
>> for more details.
>
> I also think use of the flowlabel will prove operationally simpler.

Yes, fully agree since
a) the Flow Label is part of the standard common IPv6 header, thus
   always present and easier to process (even in the fast path) as
   you also pointed out.
b) Useful Flow Label support in end-systems (i.e., setting the Flow
   Label correctly) is more likely than support for this newly
   suggested additional option, once it would have been adopted.
c) it is really unclear how you would enable the use of the proposed
   option in end-systems on demand. In case of debugging a network
   problem you need to enable this option later, if not too late.

Regards,
 Roland

From arturo.servin@gmail.com  Fri Jul 22 04:37:13 2011
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Nalini

	Basically I agree with what others said.

	If there were any reason for not using the flow label, I think =
you should state it very clearly in the document.=20

Regards,
.as

On 22 Jul 2011, at 04:59, Roland Bless wrote:

> Hi Erik,
>=20
> On 22.07.2011 08:35, Erik Kline wrote:
>>> I don't think that your proposed solution is necessary, since
>>> IPv6 has the Flow Label, that - if set by the source - may be
>>> very well suited for your purpose (tracking flows along a path).
>>> Please see =
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-flow-3697bis/
>>> for more details.
>>=20
>> I also think use of the flowlabel will prove operationally simpler.
>=20
> Yes, fully agree since
> a) the Flow Label is part of the standard common IPv6 header, thus
>   always present and easier to process (even in the fast path) as
>   you also pointed out.
> b) Useful Flow Label support in end-systems (i.e., setting the Flow
>   Label correctly) is more likely than support for this newly
>   suggested additional option, once it would have been adopted.
> c) it is really unclear how you would enable the use of the proposed
>   option in end-systems on demand. In case of debugging a network
>   problem you need to enable this option later, if not too late.
>=20
> Regards,
> Roland
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


From Internet-Drafts@ietf.org  Fri Jul 22 07:30:03 2011
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--NextPart

A new Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Maintenance Working Group of the IETF.

    Title         : Using the IPv6 flow label for equal cost multipath routing and link aggregation in tunnels
    Author(s)     : B. Carpenter, et al
    Filename      : draft-ietf-6man-flow-ecmp-05.txt
    Pages         : 10
    Date          : 2011-07-22
    
The IPv6 flow label has certain restrictions on its use.  This
   document describes how those restrictions apply when using the flow
   label for load balancing by equal cost multipath routing, and for
   link aggregation, particularly for IP-in-IPv6 tunneled traffic.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-flow-ecmp-05.txt

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ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

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Thanks to all for your comments.  But, there may be some confusion as to what we are trying to achieve.  The Proposed Flow Label field, in our opinion, does not meet our requirements. The reasons are as follows:

1.  The Flow Label, as defined, is a unique and (generally speaking) static identifier per flow.  Its purpose is to distinguish one flow from another.  

2.  Our proposed field increments per packet WITHIN a flow.  The intended purpose is to distinguish one packet from another not one flow from another.

3.  The Flow Label is only 20 bits which is not sufficient to hold even the existing 32 bit ID.  We are proposing a 64-bit ID. 

Nalini Elkins
Inside Products, Inc.
(831) 659-8360
www.insidethestack.com

--- On Thu, 7/21/11, Roland Bless <roland.bless@kit.edu> wrote:

> From: Roland Bless <roland.bless@kit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPv6 Diagnostic Option
> To: v6ops@ietf.org
> Cc: ipv6@ietf.org
> Date: Thursday, July 21, 2011, 10:41 PM
> Hi,
> 
> On 22.07.2011 06:38, nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com
> wrote:
> > Would love to get feedback on an Internet Draft we
> have submitted.
> 
> > The issue we are addressing is that the IP
> Identification field which
> > was available with IPv4 in the main header is
> available with IPv6
> > only in the Fragment Header.
> 
> I don't think that your proposed solution is necessary,
> since
> IPv6 has the Flow Label, that - if set by the source - may
> be
> very well suited for your purpose (tracking flows along a
> path).
> Please see http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-flow-3697bis/
> for more details.
> 
> Kind regards,
>  Roland
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
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From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Fri Jul 22 13:48:25 2011
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This version, posted after the cutoff by special permission, is intended
to respond to the various IESG comments. Details are in the tracker
at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-flow-ecmp/

   Brian

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-6man-flow-ecmp-05.txt
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 07:30:02 -0700
From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
CC: ipv6@ietf.org

A new Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Maintenance Working Group of the IETF.

    Title         : Using the IPv6 flow label for equal cost multipath routing and link aggregation in tunnels
    Author(s)     : B. Carpenter, et al
    Filename      : draft-ietf-6man-flow-ecmp-05.txt
    Pages         : 10
    Date          : 2011-07-22

The IPv6 flow label has certain restrictions on its use.  This
   document describes how those restrictions apply when using the flow
   label for load balancing by equal cost multipath routing, and for
   link aggregation, particularly for IP-in-IPv6 tunneled traffic.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-flow-ecmp-05.txt



From kauer@biplane.com.au  Fri Jul 22 15:42:58 2011
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPv6 Diagnostic Option
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On Fri, 2011-07-22 at 08:37 -0300, Arturo Servin wrote:
> If there were any reason for not using the flow label, I think you
> should state it very clearly in the document.=20

Well, the obvious ones are

a) your diagnostic may not be tracking a flow, but single packets or
groups of packets that are only part of a flow. It may even be trying to
figure out why a flow is not working.

b) something else may be using the flow label such that modifying it for
debugging purposes is impossible.

> On 22 Jul 2011, at 04:59, Roland Bless wrote:
> > a) the Flow Label is part of the standard common IPv6 header, thus
> >   always present and easier to process (even in the fast path) as
> >   you also pointed out.

True, but if it is in use, you have a flow you can't diagnose (at least
not by using the flow label). Bear in mind that the flow label may even
change in transit (if I read the burbling, ever-changing discussion on
flow labels correctly, which I may well not have).

> > b) Useful Flow Label support in end-systems (i.e., setting the Flow
> >   Label correctly) is more likely than support for this newly
> >   suggested additional option, once it would have been adopted.

Not sure I see your point here. As soon as the flow label is being used
by end systems - correctly OR incorrectly - it can no longer be used by
diagnostic tools, or at least not if they need to modify the flow label
values.

> > c) it is really unclear how you would enable the use of the proposed
> >   option in end-systems on demand. In case of debugging a network
> >   problem you need to enable this option later, if not too late.

Presumably debugging tools would be able to do it. Having a debugging
tool after the fact is still better than having no tool at all.

My chief worry is that if you start inserting headers in a packet stream
to debug it, you are changing what it is you are debugging - for
example, possibly causing fragmentation where none was occurring before.
The flow label has the nice property that it is in every packets anyway.
However, there are plenty of classes of problem where an additional
header would not affect the situation, and for those problems, this
seems like a useful addition.

As a generic debugging tool, it seems to me the diagnostic header is the
most general and flexible, for all that it is not appropriate in some
situations. And it doesn't seem to actually *hurt* anything, or at least
no more than any other headers might.

Regards, K.

--=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)

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On 2011-07-23 10:42, Karl Auer wrote:
> On Fri, 2011-07-22 at 08:37 -0300, Arturo Servin wrote:
>> If there were any reason for not using the flow label, I think you
>> should state it very clearly in the document. 
> 
> Well, the obvious ones are
> 
> a) your diagnostic may not be tracking a flow, but single packets or
> groups of packets that are only part of a flow. It may even be trying to
> figure out why a flow is not working.
> 
> b) something else may be using the flow label such that modifying it for
> debugging purposes is impossible.
> 
>> On 22 Jul 2011, at 04:59, Roland Bless wrote:
>>> a) the Flow Label is part of the standard common IPv6 header, thus
>>>   always present and easier to process (even in the fast path) as
>>>   you also pointed out.
> 
> True, but if it is in use, you have a flow you can't diagnose (at least
> not by using the flow label). Bear in mind that the flow label may even
> change in transit (if I read the burbling, ever-changing discussion on
> flow labels correctly, which I may well not have).

Since it's not protected by any checksum, it may be changed maliciously
and undetectably.

The 3697bis draft being reviewed now by the IESG states that it must not
be changed once it has been set to a non-zero value, but also recognises
that certain (relatively paranoid) firewalls may change it anyway.

More to the point, 3697bis makes very specific recommendations as to how
the flow label should be set by default. It is not a set of free bits.

>>> b) Useful Flow Label support in end-systems (i.e., setting the Flow
>>>   Label correctly) is more likely than support for this newly
>>>   suggested additional option, once it would have been adopted.
> 
> Not sure I see your point here. As soon as the flow label is being used
> by end systems - correctly OR incorrectly - it can no longer be used by
> diagnostic tools, or at least not if they need to modify the flow label
> values.

Exactly.

   Brian

> 
>>> c) it is really unclear how you would enable the use of the proposed
>>>   option in end-systems on demand. In case of debugging a network
>>>   problem you need to enable this option later, if not too late.
> 
> Presumably debugging tools would be able to do it. Having a debugging
> tool after the fact is still better than having no tool at all.
> 
> My chief worry is that if you start inserting headers in a packet stream
> to debug it, you are changing what it is you are debugging - for
> example, possibly causing fragmentation where none was occurring before.
> The flow label has the nice property that it is in every packets anyway.
> However, there are plenty of classes of problem where an additional
> header would not affect the situation, and for those problems, this
> seems like a useful addition.
> 
> As a generic debugging tool, it seems to me the diagnostic header is the
> most general and flexible, for all that it is not appropriate in some
> situations. And it doesn't seem to actually *hurt* anything, or at least
> no more than any other headers might.
> 
> Regards, K.
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Subject: RE: PMTUD and MTU < 1280  
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:32:50 -0700
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> RJ Atkinson
> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 2:36 PM
> To: ipv6@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: PMTUD and MTU < 1280
> 
> Earlier, Brian Carpenter wrote:
> > It's always been my understanding that an interface sending IPv6
> packets
> > MUST implement some (unspecified) form of framentation and reassembly
> > *below layer 3* if the link MTU is less than 1280. In other words a
> > PTB for a packet of length 1280 is an unrecoverable violation.
> 
> I also understand that the IPv6 specifications say that
> the minimum IPv6 MTU for any link type is 1280 bytes.
> 
> I am not sure the specs insist that an IPv6 implementation
> must treat an ICMPv6 Packet-Too-Big for less than 1280 bytes
> as "unrecoverable". (I haven't re-read the IPv6 specs recently.)

IPv6 specs have always said that ICMPv6 packet-too-big for
less than the minimum MTU should cause the IPv6 host to send 
packets (of that minimum MTU size) with an additional fragmentation 
header.  This existed in the first IPv6 RFC, RFC1883 (when the IPv6 
minimum MTU was 576):

   In response to an IPv6 packet that is sent to an IPv4 destination
   (i.e., a packet that undergoes translation from IPv6 to IPv4), the
   originating IPv6 node may receive an ICMP Packet Too Big message
   reporting a Next-Hop MTU less than 576.  In that case, the IPv6 node
   is not required to reduce the size of subsequent packets to less than
   576, but must include a Fragment header in those packets so that the
   IPv6-to-IPv4 translating router can obtain a suitable Identification
   value to use in resulting IPv4 fragments.  Note that this means the
   payload may have to be reduced to 528 octets (576 minus 40 for the
   IPv6 header and 8 for the Fragment header), and smaller still if
   additional extension headers are used.

and in the current IPv6 RFC, RFC2460:

   In response to an IPv6 packet that is sent to an IPv4 destination
   (i.e., a packet that undergoes translation from IPv6 to IPv4), the
   originating IPv6 node may receive an ICMP Packet Too Big message
   reporting a Next-Hop MTU less than 1280.  In that case, the IPv6 node
   is not required to reduce the size of subsequent packets to less than
   1280, but must include a Fragment header in those packets so that the
   IPv6-to-IPv4 translating router can obtain a suitable Identification
   value to use in resulting IPv4 fragments.  Note that this means the
   payload may have to be reduced to 1232 octets (1280 minus 40 for the
   IPv6 header and 8 for the Fragment header), and smaller still if
   additional extension headers are used.

-d

> I understand that some deployed IPv6 implementations will
> tolerate and support Packet-Too-Big messages with a link MTU
> at least as small as 576 -- following the Postel Principle
> of "generous in what one accepts" and being practical about
> several radio link technologies that do not support a
> 1280 byte IP MTU.  Such implementations are more resilient
> than the IPv6 specifications require; this is helpful.
> 
> > For example, if you're tunneling IPv6 over an IPv4 network whose PMTU
> > (to the other end of the tunnel) is, to take a random example, 576,
> > the tunnel end points could use IPv4 fragmentation and reassembly
> > to provide a 1280 MTU for the IPv6 traffic.
> 
> One could do that.  Over low-bandwidth radio links the overhead of
> doing
> that would effectively make it preferable to deploy an IPv6::IPv4
> translator
> or some other protocol translation scheme (and continue with IPv4
> forever,
> at least on that link) than to encapsulate IPv6 in anything more than
> just the radio link layer just to meet the 1280 byte requirement.
> 
> As I recall, I noted this problem to the IPv6 WG back in the middle
> 1990s.[1]
> Sadly. that prediction seems to have come true.  So I understand that
> today,
> over some deployed radio link technologies, several IPv6
> implementations use
> the raw link encapsulation and fragment IPv6 into chunks at that raw
> link
> MTU size (even though that is below 1280 bytes).
> 
> > Of course this doesn't cover the NAT64 case; so what? NAT breaks many
> things.
> > We just have to rely on the real world, where the layer 2 link MTU is
> pretty
> > much always 1500 today.
> 
> I agree that the IEEE standard Ethernet link MTU is very widely
> deployed
> today.  Many, possibly most, Ethernet switches also support a link MTU
> somewhat over 9K bytes.
> 
> I'm told that SONET links most commonly use the old FDDI link MTU
> (roughly 4500 bytes).
> ATM links, which seem to be going away, most commonly support an IP MTU
> near
> 9180 bytes (which value seems to have driven the Jumbo Ethernet
> implementations).
> However, there are still a number of link types, mostly radio link
> types
> (as near as I can tell), that have a link MTU well below 1280 bytes.
> As
> near as I can tell, IPv6 would have been much better off selecting 512
> bytes
> as the minimum IPv6 MTU size.[1]
> 
> It is very unfortunate that IPv6 specifies this very large minimum MTU
> size
> (i.e. 1280 bytes), because it is impeding the ability of various
> organisations
> to deploy IPv6 on a number of existing links that already support IPv4.
> 
> This is just the kind of obstacle to deployment that IPv6 does not
> need.
> Specifying the value 1280 is not solving a real technical problem,
> IMHO.
> A lower value would facilitate faster, easier, simpler, and more
> widespread
> deployment and use of IPv6, IMHO.
> 
> IPv4 can run over nearly any link without protocol changes or requiring
> special case handling.  Sadly, IPv6 cannot make the same claim.  One
> hopes
> IPv6 implementers will be tolerant of IPv6 MTUs below 1280 bytes,
> because
> they do exist in the deployed world and aren't going away anytime soon.
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Ran Atkinson
> 
> [1] <ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf-online-
> proceedings/94dec/area.and.wg.reports/ipng/ipngwg/ipngwg-minutes-
> 94dec.txt>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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Subject: RE: PMTUD and MTU < 1280
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:34:21 -0700
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> james woodyatt
> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 2:44 PM
> To: RJ Atkinson
> Cc: ipv6@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: PMTUD and MTU < 1280
> 
> On Jul 20, 2011, at 14:35 , RJ Atkinson wrote:
> 
> > One hopes IPv6 implementers will be tolerant of IPv6 MTUs below 1280
> bytes, because they do exist in the deployed world and aren't going
> away anytime soon.
> 
> Those hopes are not well placed.
> 
> I am aware of at least one packet filter implementation-- which might
> be refined in the future, one hopes, to conform fully with RFC 6092--
> that treats this behavior as a resource exhaustion attack and drops
> flows accordingly.

Its behavior violates the last paragraph of Section 5 of RFC2460.

-d

> 
> --
> james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
> member of technical staff, core os networking
> 
> 
> 
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From roland.bless@kit.edu  Sat Jul 23 13:48:17 2011
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From: Roland Bless <roland.bless@kit.edu>
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To: Karl Auer <kauer@biplane.com.au>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPv6 Diagnostic Option
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Hi Karl,

On 23.07.2011 00:42, Karl Auer wrote:
> Well, the obvious ones are
> 
> a) your diagnostic may not be tracking a flow, but single packets or
> groups of packets that are only part of a flow. It may even be trying to
> figure out why a flow is not working.

The draft was lacking a clear problem statement so that wasn't clear to me.

>> On 22 Jul 2011, at 04:59, Roland Bless wrote:
>>> a) the Flow Label is part of the standard common IPv6 header, thus
>>>   always present and easier to process (even in the fast path) as
>>>   you also pointed out.
> 
> True, but if it is in use, you have a flow you can't diagnose (at least
> not by using the flow label). Bear in mind that the flow label may even

Depends on what you want to diagnose.

> change in transit (if I read the burbling, ever-changing discussion on
> flow labels correctly, which I may well not have).

That shouldn't be the case though, see Brian's reply.

>>> b) Useful Flow Label support in end-systems (i.e., setting the Flow
>>>   Label correctly) is more likely than support for this newly
>>>   suggested additional option, once it would have been adopted.
> 
> Not sure I see your point here. As soon as the flow label is being used
> by end systems - correctly OR incorrectly - it can no longer be used by
> diagnostic tools, or at least not if they need to modify the flow label
> values.

My point was referring to the case when the flow label is being used
as intended, not for other purposes.

>>> c) it is really unclear how you would enable the use of the proposed
>>>   option in end-systems on demand. In case of debugging a network
>>>   problem you need to enable this option later, if not too late.
> 
> Presumably debugging tools would be able to do it. Having a debugging
> tool after the fact is still better than having no tool at all.

My point was that you cannot assume that every end-system has such
debugging tool installed and that you can turn it on remotely.
So using special end-systems as debugging tools sending
these special packets out is IMHO a different setting...

> My chief worry is that if you start inserting headers in a packet stream
> to debug it, you are changing what it is you are debugging - for

Yes.

Regards,
 Roland

From kauer@biplane.com.au  Sat Jul 23 17:39:43 2011
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On Sat, 2011-07-23 at 22:48 +0200, Roland Bless wrote:
> The draft was lacking a clear problem statement so that wasn't clear to m=
e.

The proposer has put a fairly clear one into this discussion, hope it
ends up in the next draft :-)

> Depends on what you want to diagnose.

That's always true. No tool will fit all situations. The question about
this one, as for all such things, is simply "is it worth having?"

> > change in transit (if I read the burbling, ever-changing discussion on
> > flow labels correctly, which I may well not have).
>=20
> That shouldn't be the case though, see Brian's reply.

"Shouldn't be the case" is a far cry from "won't be the case". And the
cases where what you expect is not what you get are exactly the cases
where a flow-label-independent tool would likely be Very Nice To Have.

> My point was referring to the case when the flow label is being used
> as intended, not for other purposes.

And my point was that "as intended" is very far from clear (and IMO
rather unlikely ever to be clear).

> My point was that you cannot assume that every end-system has such
> debugging tool installed and that you can turn it on remotely.

This is true of all end-to-end debugging tools...?

I suppose I'm saying that you've not convinced me as to why we should
NOT have a diagnostic header. Your arguments all say, in one way or
another, that there are situations where it won't be useful. But that is
true for all such things. To convince me to be against this proposal, I
would need to see

- arguments that show how it is a bad thing
- arguments that show how it is a useless thing
- arguments that show how it will not work
- arguments that show how it is not needed

"Not needed" is different from "useless". "Not needed" means that while
the thing it does is useful, that thing can be done using an existing
tool.

I think most of your points are well-made, I just don't think they are
showstoppers for this proposed new header.

Regards, K.

--=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karl Auer (kauer@biplane.com.au)                   +61-2-64957160 (h)
http://www.biplane.com.au/kauer/                   +61-428-957160 (mob)

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From bob.hinden@gmail.com  Sun Jul 24 10:03:20 2011
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Hi,

The 6man chairs are looking for volunteers to take minutes and for =
jabber scribes.  If you are interested please let the chairs know.  It's =
your opportunity to contribute to the overall quality of the meeting =
materials.

Thanks,
Bob & Brian


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Subject: RE: PMTUD and MTU < 1280
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 09:36:23 -0400
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: R=E9mi Despr=E9s [mailto:remi.despres@free.fr]
> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 8:38 AM
> To: Dan Wing
> Cc: 'james woodyatt'; 'RJ Atkinson'; ipv6@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: PMTUD and MTU < 1280
>=20
>=20
> Le 23 juil. 2011 =E0 04:34, Dan Wing a =E9crit :
>=20
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf
> Of
> >> james woodyatt
> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 2:44 PM
> >> To: RJ Atkinson
> >> Cc: ipv6@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: PMTUD and MTU < 1280
> >>
> >> On Jul 20, 2011, at 14:35 , RJ Atkinson wrote:
> >>
> >>> One hopes IPv6 implementers will be tolerant of IPv6 MTUs below
> 1280
> >> bytes, because they do exist in the deployed world and aren't going
> >> away anytime soon.
> >>
> >> Those hopes are not well placed.
> >>
> >> I am aware of at least one packet filter implementation-- which
> might
> >> be refined in the future, one hopes, to conform fully with RFC =
6092-
> -
> >> that treats this behavior as a resource exhaustion attack and drops
> >> flows accordingly.
> >
> > Its behavior violates the last paragraph of Section 5 of RFC2460.
>=20
> Violation _only in case_ of "an IPv6 packet that is sent to an IPv4
> destination".

But how does one determine an IPv6 packet is, or isn't, going=20
to an IPv4 destination?  I don't think it's possible to determine
if there is an IPv6/IPv4 translator on the path.

-d


> If the destination is IPv6, a PMTU below 1280 remains therefore a
> network failure.
> This authorizes a simple IPv6 host to refuse packets beyond 1280 =
octets
> and to have no support of packet-reassembly.
>=20
> Right?
>=20
> Regards,
> RD
>=20
>=20
>=20
> >
> > -d
> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
> >> member of technical staff, core os networking
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >> ipv6@ietf.org
> >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> >> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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Subject: RE: PMTUD and MTU < 1280
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: R=E9mi Despr=E9s [mailto:despres.remi@laposte.net]
> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 1:43 PM
> To: Dan Wing
> Cc: 'james woodyatt'; 'RJ Atkinson'; ipv6@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: PMTUD and MTU < 1280
>=20
> Dan,
>=20
> 1.
> The point I wanted to check is just, slightly reformulated):
> "May a simple IPv6 host have no support of packet-reassembly, and
> simply accept packets up to 1280 octets."

The earlier part of this thread was talking about sending; you're
now bringing up receiving.

IMO, if the packet came from IPv4, and that IPv4 network had a small
MTU (e.g., 576) causing fragmentation, then such an IPv6 receiver
will be unable to receive the packet.

> In my understanding, the answer should be yes.
> - This doesn't depend on whether sources know or not whether their
> destinations are IPv6 or IPv4 only.
> - If the destination happens to be IPv6, current RFC's don't permit
> intermediate nodes to refuse 1280 packets as being too big.
>=20
> 2.
> How sources can be sure to have e2e transparency in IPv6 is a =
different
> question, but IMHO an important one.
>=20
> For instance, if a destination address is obtained from the DNS in a
> AAAA, with no A for the same URL  and without any well-known prefix
> indicating that there is an embedded-IPv4-address, I hope the source
> can be guaranteed that e2e transparency won't be broken?

I don't think so.  DNS64 comes to mind.

> I won't have time personally to contribute much on this, but the
> subject would usefully be clarified, IMHO.

The RFCs are pretty clear, IMO.  Implementers don't want to read
them all the way.

-d


> Regards,
> RD
>=20
>=20
>  Le 25 juil. 2011 =E0 15:36, Dan Wing a =E9crit :
>=20
> >>>>
> >>>> ...
> >>>
> >>> Its behavior violates the last paragraph of Section 5 of RFC2460.
> >>
> >> Violation _only in case_ of "an IPv6 packet that is sent to an IPv4
> >> destination".
> >
> > But how does one determine an IPv6 packet is, or isn't, going
> > to an IPv4 destination?  I don't think it's possible to determine
> > if there is an IPv6/IPv4 translator on the path.
> >
> > -d
> >
> >
> >> If the destination is IPv6, a PMTU below 1280 remains therefore a
> >> network failure.
> >> This authorizes a simple IPv6 host to refuse packets beyond 1280
> octets
> >> and to have no support of packet-reassembly.
> >>
> >> Right?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> RD
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> -d
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
> >>>> member of technical staff, core os networking
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> =
------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> >>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> >>>> ipv6@ietf.org
> >>>> Administrative Requests:
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> >>>> =
------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> >>>
> >>> =
-------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> >>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> >>> ipv6@ietf.org
> >>> Administrative Requests: =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> >>> =
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> -
> >



From despres.remi@laposte.net  Mon Jul 25 10:43:02 2011
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Dan,=20

1.
The point I wanted to check is just, slightly reformulated):
"May a simple IPv6 host have no support of packet-reassembly, and simply =
accept packets up to 1280 octets."

In my understanding, the answer should be yes.
- This doesn't depend on whether sources know or not whether their =
destinations are IPv6 or IPv4 only.=20
- If the destination happens to be IPv6, current RFC's don't permit =
intermediate nodes to refuse 1280 packets as being too big.

2.=20
How sources can be sure to have e2e transparency in IPv6 is a different =
question, but IMHO an important one.

For instance, if a destination address is obtained from the DNS in a =
AAAA, with no A for the same URL  and without any well-known prefix =
indicating that there is an embedded-IPv4-address, I hope the source can =
be guaranteed that e2e transparency won't be broken?=20

I won't have time personally to contribute much on this, but the subject =
would usefully be clarified, IMHO.

Regards,
RD
=20

 Le 25 juil. 2011 =E0 15:36, Dan Wing a =E9crit :

>>>>=20
>>>> ...
>>>=20
>>> Its behavior violates the last paragraph of Section 5 of RFC2460.
>>=20
>> Violation _only in case_ of "an IPv6 packet that is sent to an IPv4
>> destination".
>=20
> But how does one determine an IPv6 packet is, or isn't, going=20
> to an IPv4 destination?  I don't think it's possible to determine
> if there is an IPv6/IPv4 translator on the path.
>=20
> -d
>=20
>=20
>> If the destination is IPv6, a PMTU below 1280 remains therefore a
>> network failure.
>> This authorizes a simple IPv6 host to refuse packets beyond 1280 =
octets
>> and to have no support of packet-reassembly.
>>=20
>> Right?
>>=20
>> Regards,
>> RD
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> -d
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> --
>>>> james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
>>>> member of technical staff, core os networking
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>>>> ipv6@ietf.org
>>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>>>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>=20
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>>> ipv6@ietf.org
>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20



From marka@isc.org  Mon Jul 25 19:58:42 2011
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To: "Dan Wing" <dwing@cisco.com>
From: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
References: <264DF4B8-A7F3-4DB3-B58D-BBAC2A48B470@gmail.com> <A3E346FA-E5A4-4755-9D35-08CB10494424@apple.com> <01d201cc48e1$0784d8d0$168e8a70$@com> <010826E2-D6DF-488D-B5C4-CE14E47C7EE7@free.fr> <04db01cc4acf$d9074600$8b15d200$@com> <98B94666-CD24-4D1A-B25F-F6238CC3708E@laposte.net> <071801cc4afb$b3ead4a0$1bc07de0$@com>
Subject: Re: PMTUD and MTU < 1280
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Jul 2011 14:50:19 -0400." <071801cc4afb$b3ead4a0$1bc07de0$@com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:57:51 +1000
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In message <071801cc4afb$b3ead4a0$1bc07de0$@com>, "Dan Wing" writes:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: R=E9mi Despr=E9s [mailto:despres.remi@laposte.net]
> > Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 1:43 PM
> > To: Dan Wing
> > Cc: 'james woodyatt'; 'RJ Atkinson'; ipv6@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: PMTUD and MTU < 1280
> > =
> 
> > Dan,
> > =
> 
> > 1.
> > The point I wanted to check is just, slightly reformulated):
> > "May a simple IPv6 host have no support of packet-reassembly, and
> > simply accept packets up to 1280 octets."
> 
> The earlier part of this thread was talking about sending; you're
> now bringing up receiving.
> 
> IMO, if the packet came from IPv4, and that IPv4 network had a small
> MTU (e.g., 576) causing fragmentation, then such an IPv6 receiver
> will be unable to receive the packet.
>
> > In my understanding, the answer should be yes.
> > - This doesn't depend on whether sources know or not whether their
> > destinations are IPv6 or IPv4 only.
> > - If the destination happens to be IPv6, current RFC's don't permit
> > intermediate nodes to refuse 1280 packets as being too big.
> > =
> 
> > 2.
> > How sources can be sure to have e2e transparency in IPv6 is a different
> > question, but IMHO an important one.
> > =
> 
> > For instance, if a destination address is obtained from the DNS in a
> > AAAA, with no A for the same URL  and without any well-known prefix
> > indicating that there is an embedded-IPv4-address, I hope the source
> > can be guaranteed that e2e transparency won't be broken?
> 
> I don't think so.  DNS64 comes to mind.
> 
> > I won't have time personally to contribute much on this, but the
> > subject would usefully be clarified, IMHO.
> 
> The RFCs are pretty clear, IMO.  Implementers don't want to read
> them all the way.

And there is missing functionality in the API's.

IPV6_USE_MIN_MTU doesn't force a fragment header to be added to
packets less than 1280 octets for example and I'm not aware of any
other API hooks which will do this.  As a result a node still has
to do some parts of path mtu discovery even if it doesn't want to
and it is undesirable for it to do so.

RFC 3542

   This specification defines a mechanism to avoid path MTU discovery by
   sending at the minimum IPv6 MTU [RFC-2460].  If the packet is larger
   than the minimum MTU and this feature has been enabled the IP layer
   will fragment to the minimum MTU.  To control the policy about path
   MTU discovery, applications can use the IPV6_USE_MIN_MTU socket
   option.

A application should be able to send a IPv6/UDP packet, without resorting
to using raw sockets, and not have a PTB be generated as a result.

Mark

> -d
> 
> 
> > Regards,
> > RD
> > =
> 
> > =
> 
> >  Le 25 juil. 2011 =E0 15:36, Dan Wing a =E9crit :
> > =
> 
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ...
> > >>>
> > >>> Its behavior violates the last paragraph of Section 5 of RFC2460.
> > >>
> > >> Violation _only in case_ of "an IPv6 packet that is sent to an IPv4
> > >> destination".
> > >
> > > But how does one determine an IPv6 packet is, or isn't, going
> > > to an IPv4 destination?  I don't think it's possible to determine
> > > if there is an IPv6/IPv4 translator on the path.
> > >
> > > -d
> > >
> > >
> > >> If the destination is IPv6, a PMTU below 1280 remains therefore a
> > >> network failure.
> > >> This authorizes a simple IPv6 host to refuse packets beyond 1280
> > octets
> > >> and to have no support of packet-reassembly.
> > >>
> > >> Right?
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >> RD
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>> -d
> > >>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
> > >>>> member of technical staff, core os networking
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > >>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> > >>>> ipv6@ietf.org
> > >>>> Administrative Requests:
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > >>>
> > >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -
> > >>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> > >>> ipv6@ietf.org
> > >>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> > >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -
> > >
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: marka@isc.org

From despres.remi@laposte.net  Mon Jul 25 14:47:32 2011
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Subject: Re: PMTUD and MTU < 1280
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To: Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com>
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Le 25 juil. 2011 =E0 20:50, Dan Wing a =E9crit :

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: R=E9mi Despr=E9s [mailto:despres.remi@laposte.net]
>> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 1:43 PM
>> To: Dan Wing
>> Cc: 'james woodyatt'; 'RJ Atkinson'; ipv6@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: PMTUD and MTU < 1280
>>=20
>> Dan,
>>=20
>> 1.
>> The point I wanted to check is just, slightly reformulated):
>> "May a simple IPv6 host have no support of packet-reassembly, and
>> simply accept packets up to 1280 octets."
>=20
> The earlier part of this thread was talking about sending; you're
> now bringing up receiving.

Yes.

The point made is about the difference between IPv6-to-IPv4 and =
IPv6-to-IPv6 PMTU's (an IPv6 PTB with MTU < 1280 remaining excluded, =
AFAIK, if both source and destination are IPv6.)=20

> IMO, if the packet came from IPv4, and that IPv4 network had a small
> MTU (e.g., 576) causing fragmentation, then such an IPv6 receiver
> will be unable to receive the packet.

The point is only about IPv6 to IPv6.

>> In my understanding, the answer should be yes.
>> - This doesn't depend on whether sources know or not whether their
>> destinations are IPv6 or IPv4 only.
>> - If the destination happens to be IPv6, current RFC's don't permit
>> intermediate nodes to refuse 1280 packets as being too big.
>>=20
>> 2.
>> How sources can be sure to have e2e transparency in IPv6 is a =
different
>> question, but IMHO an important one.

>> For instance, if a destination address is obtained from the DNS in a
>> AAAA, with no A for the same URL  and without any well-known prefix
>> indicating that there is an embedded-IPv4-address, I hope the source
>> can be guaranteed that e2e transparency won't be broken?
>=20
> I don't think so.  DNS64 comes to mind.

In my understanding, a host that requests both for A's and AAAA's, and =
receives no A, knows it talks to an IPv6-only host, with or without =
DNS64.
There may be other ways to know it, e.g. for some IPv6-only sensors =
talking only with IPv6-capable dedicated servers.=20

In any case, I have no problem with leaving this subject, as many others =
may be found more urgent.

Thanks,
RD


>> I won't have time personally to contribute much on this, but the
>> subject would usefully be clarified, IMHO.
>=20
> The RFCs are pretty clear, IMO. Implementers don't want to read

> them all the way.
>=20
> -d
>=20
>=20
>> Regards,
>> RD
>>=20
>>=20
>> Le 25 juil. 2011 =E0 15:36, Dan Wing a =E9crit :
>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Its behavior violates the last paragraph of Section 5 of RFC2460.
>>>>=20
>>>> Violation _only in case_ of "an IPv6 packet that is sent to an IPv4
>>>> destination".
>>>=20
>>> But how does one determine an IPv6 packet is, or isn't, going
>>> to an IPv4 destination?  I don't think it's possible to determine
>>> if there is an IPv6/IPv4 translator on the path.
>>>=20
>>> -d
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> If the destination is IPv6, a PMTU below 1280 remains therefore a
>>>> network failure.
>>>> This authorizes a simple IPv6 host to refuse packets beyond 1280
>> octets
>>>> and to have no support of packet-reassembly.
>>>>=20
>>>> Right?
>>>>=20
>>>> Regards,
>>>> RD
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -d
>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
>>>>>> member of technical staff, core os networking
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =
------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --
>>>>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>>>>>> ipv6@ietf.org
>>>>>> Administrative Requests:
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>>>>>> =
------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =
-------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>>>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>>>>> ipv6@ietf.org
>>>>> Administrative Requests: =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>>>>> =
-------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>>>=20
>=20
>=20


From bob.hinden@gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 04:55:50 2011
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Subject: Re: Need Jabber Scribe and Minute taker for 6man session
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From: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>
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We still need volunteers for a meeting taker and jabber scribe.

Bob & Brian

On Jul 24, 2011, at 1:03 PM, Bob Hinden wrote:

> Hi,
>=20
> The 6man chairs are looking for volunteers to take minutes and for =
jabber scribes.  If you are interested please let the chairs know.  It's =
your opportunity to contribute to the overall quality of the meeting =
materials.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Bob & Brian
>=20


From arifumi@nttv6.net  Tue Jul 26 13:42:13 2011
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Subject: Privacy Bit in the policy table Re: rfc3484-bis issue 2: privacy addresses
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From: Arifumi Matsumoto <arifumi@nttv6.net>
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Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 05:37:43 +0900
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Cc: Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk>, Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com>
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All,

let me re-post the candidate extended policy table format below.

> For example, if we extend the policy table to have Privacy column like =
below,
>=20
>         Prefix        Precedence Label  Privacy
>         ::1/128               60     0      OFF
>         fc00::/7              50     1      OFF
>         ::/0                  40     2       ON
>         ::ffff:0:0/96         30     3      OFF
>         2002::/16             20     4      OFF
>         2001::/32             10     5      OFF
>         ::/96                  1    10      OFF
>         fec0::/10              1    11      OFF
>=20
> a temporary address will be used only when a destination address =
longest matches ::/0 entry in this table.

This is rather simple form of privacy extension control.
Only the destination prefix determines whether the privacy extension for =
the source prefix should be used or not.
In this case, even if a host has multiple prefixes, the source prefix =
does not have effect on it.

It seems to me that this satisfies the needs we discussed just now.


If we want to use both destination and source prefixes to control the =
usage of privacy extension,
we need additional mechanisms like Label.


Or, any other implementation form ?


On 2011/06/29, at 14:28, Arifumi Matsumoto wrote:

> Hi Suresh,
>=20
> On 2011/06/29, at 4:32, Suresh Krishnan wrote:
>=20
>> Hi Tim,
>> There is already a programmatic switch for this in RFC5014 =
(IPV6_PREFER_SRC_TMP/IPV6_PREFER_SRC_PUBLIC). Applications wishing to =
override system policy may do so by using this API.
>=20
> Yes. An application can control which kind of address to choose by =
that API.
>=20
> Our question is whether we should have a way to configure host-wide =
policy about when to use temporary address or not.
>=20
> For example, if we extend the policy table to have Privacy column like =
below,
>=20
>         Prefix        Precedence Label  Privacy
>         ::1/128               60     0      OFF
>         fc00::/7              50     1      OFF
>         ::/0                  40     2       ON
>         ::ffff:0:0/96         30     3      OFF
>         2002::/16             20     4      OFF
>         2001::/32             10     5      OFF
>         ::/96                  1    10      OFF
>         fec0::/10              1    11      OFF
>=20
> a temporary address will be used only when a destination address =
longest matches ::/0 entry in this table.
>=20
> Please note that this is about address selection and not about whether =
a host should generate temporary address for a received RA prefix.
>=20
> As Tim mentioned, if we agree to have this kind of new tool, after =
that, we should discuss about policy distribution of this added column.
>=20
> Best regards,
>=20
>>=20
>> Cheers
>> Suresh
>>=20
>> ________________________________________
>> From: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tim =
Chown [tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk]
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 10:38 AM
>> To: ipv6@ietf.org
>> Subject: rfc3484-bis issue 2: privacy addresses
>>=20
>> The second issue is surrounding IPv6 privacy addresses (RFC4941).
>>=20
>> Section 3.1 of RFC4941 states:
>> "this document assumes that when a node initiates outgoing
>>=20
>>  communication, temporary addresses can be given preference over
>>  public addresses when the device is configured to do so.
>>  [ADDR_SELECT<http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4941#ref-ADDR_SELECT>] =
mandates implementations to provide a mechanism, which
>>  allows an application to configure its preference for temporary
>>  addresses over public addresses.  It also allows for an
>>  implementation to prefer temporary addresses by default, so that the
>>  connections initiated by the node can use temporary addresses =
without
>>  requiring application-specific enablement."
>>=20
>>=20
>> This suggests there should be a mechanism for a host to choose =
whether to use temporary or public addresses.  RFC3484 talks about =
preferring temporary or public addresses in Rule 7.  In practice, =
implementations seem to prefer privacy addresses (to initiate =
connections) when they are enabled.  At the moment, RFC3484-bis says =
nothing different or new for privacy addresses.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Should there be a configuration switch for privacy extensions =
somewhere, and if so how is this controlled - locally or via a policy =
distribution mechanism?
>>=20
>>=20
>> In IETF80, the suggestion to 'tell' a host whether it should use =
privacy addresses by using an RA flag was not well received. There was =
at least one comment at IETF80 that the privilege to carry the traffic =
and the privilege to turn on/off the privacy extension should be =
different.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Comments please.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Tim
>>=20
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> ipv6@ietf.org
>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20
>=20
> --
> Arifumi Matsumoto
>  NGN System Architecture Project
>  NTT Service Integration Laboratories
>  E-mail: arifumi@nttv6.net
>  TEL +81-422-59-3334 FAX +81-422-59-6364
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------


From arifumi@nttv6.net  Tue Jul 26 13:47:08 2011
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Subject: Re: Privacy Bit in the policy table Re: rfc3484-bis issue 2: privacy addresses
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 05:45:43 +0900
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And the corresponding distributing protocol format was already there in =
the previous version. :)

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-addr-select-opt-00

We just dropped this bit in the latest -01 version.

Best regards,

On 2011/07/27, at 5:37, Arifumi Matsumoto wrote:

> All,
>=20
> let me re-post the candidate extended policy table format below.
>=20
>> For example, if we extend the policy table to have Privacy column =
like below,
>>=20
>>        Prefix        Precedence Label  Privacy
>>        ::1/128               60     0      OFF
>>        fc00::/7              50     1      OFF
>>        ::/0                  40     2       ON
>>        ::ffff:0:0/96         30     3      OFF
>>        2002::/16             20     4      OFF
>>        2001::/32             10     5      OFF
>>        ::/96                  1    10      OFF
>>        fec0::/10              1    11      OFF
>>=20
>> a temporary address will be used only when a destination address =
longest matches ::/0 entry in this table.
>=20
> This is rather simple form of privacy extension control.
> Only the destination prefix determines whether the privacy extension =
for the source prefix should be used or not.
> In this case, even if a host has multiple prefixes, the source prefix =
does not have effect on it.
>=20
> It seems to me that this satisfies the needs we discussed just now.
>=20
>=20
> If we want to use both destination and source prefixes to control the =
usage of privacy extension,
> we need additional mechanisms like Label.
>=20
>=20
> Or, any other implementation form ?
>=20
>=20
> On 2011/06/29, at 14:28, Arifumi Matsumoto wrote:
>=20
>> Hi Suresh,
>>=20
>> On 2011/06/29, at 4:32, Suresh Krishnan wrote:
>>=20
>>> Hi Tim,
>>> There is already a programmatic switch for this in RFC5014 =
(IPV6_PREFER_SRC_TMP/IPV6_PREFER_SRC_PUBLIC). Applications wishing to =
override system policy may do so by using this API.
>>=20
>> Yes. An application can control which kind of address to choose by =
that API.
>>=20
>> Our question is whether we should have a way to configure host-wide =
policy about when to use temporary address or not.
>>=20
>> For example, if we extend the policy table to have Privacy column =
like below,
>>=20
>>        Prefix        Precedence Label  Privacy
>>        ::1/128               60     0      OFF
>>        fc00::/7              50     1      OFF
>>        ::/0                  40     2       ON
>>        ::ffff:0:0/96         30     3      OFF
>>        2002::/16             20     4      OFF
>>        2001::/32             10     5      OFF
>>        ::/96                  1    10      OFF
>>        fec0::/10              1    11      OFF
>>=20
>> a temporary address will be used only when a destination address =
longest matches ::/0 entry in this table.
>>=20
>> Please note that this is about address selection and not about =
whether a host should generate temporary address for a received RA =
prefix.
>>=20
>> As Tim mentioned, if we agree to have this kind of new tool, after =
that, we should discuss about policy distribution of this added column.
>>=20
>> Best regards,
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Cheers
>>> Suresh
>>>=20
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tim =
Chown [tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 10:38 AM
>>> To: ipv6@ietf.org
>>> Subject: rfc3484-bis issue 2: privacy addresses
>>>=20
>>> The second issue is surrounding IPv6 privacy addresses (RFC4941).
>>>=20
>>> Section 3.1 of RFC4941 states:
>>> "this document assumes that when a node initiates outgoing
>>>=20
>>> communication, temporary addresses can be given preference over
>>> public addresses when the device is configured to do so.
>>> [ADDR_SELECT<http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4941#ref-ADDR_SELECT>] =
mandates implementations to provide a mechanism, which
>>> allows an application to configure its preference for temporary
>>> addresses over public addresses.  It also allows for an
>>> implementation to prefer temporary addresses by default, so that the
>>> connections initiated by the node can use temporary addresses =
without
>>> requiring application-specific enablement."
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> This suggests there should be a mechanism for a host to choose =
whether to use temporary or public addresses.  RFC3484 talks about =
preferring temporary or public addresses in Rule 7.  In practice, =
implementations seem to prefer privacy addresses (to initiate =
connections) when they are enabled.  At the moment, RFC3484-bis says =
nothing different or new for privacy addresses.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Should there be a configuration switch for privacy extensions =
somewhere, and if so how is this controlled - locally or via a policy =
distribution mechanism?
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> In IETF80, the suggestion to 'tell' a host whether it should use =
privacy addresses by using an RA flag was not well received. There was =
at least one comment at IETF80 that the privilege to carry the traffic =
and the privilege to turn on/off the privacy extension should be =
different.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Comments please.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Tim
>>>=20
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>>> ipv6@ietf.org
>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>>=20
>> --
>> Arifumi Matsumoto
>> NGN System Architecture Project
>> NTT Service Integration Laboratories
>> E-mail: arifumi@nttv6.net
>> TEL +81-422-59-3334 FAX +81-422-59-6364
>>=20
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> ipv6@ietf.org
>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------


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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div>And the corresponding distributing protocol format was already =
there in the previous version. :)</div><div><br></div><div><a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-addr-select-opt-00">htt=
p://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-addr-select-opt-00</a><br><div><br=
></div><div>We just dropped this bit in the latest -01 =
version.</div><div><br></div><div>Best =
regards,</div><div><br></div><div><div><div>On 2011/07/27, at 5:37, =
Arifumi Matsumoto wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div>All,<br><br>let me re-post the candidate extended =
policy table format below.<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">For example, =
if we extend the policy table to have Privacy column like =
below,<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Prefix =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Precedence Label =
&nbsp;Privacy<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;::1/128 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;60 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;OFF<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;fc00::/7 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;50 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;OFF<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;::/0 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;40 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;ON<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;::ffff:0:0/96 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;30 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;3 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;OFF<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2002::/16 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;20=
 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;4 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;OFF<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2001::/32 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;10=
 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;5 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;OFF<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;::/96 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;10 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;OFF<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;fec0::/10 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;1 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;11 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;OFF<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">a temporary =
address will be used only when a destination address longest matches =
::/0 entry in this table.<br></blockquote><br>This is rather simple form =
of privacy extension control.<br>Only the destination prefix determines =
whether the privacy extension for the source prefix should be used or =
not.<br>In this case, even if a host has multiple prefixes, the source =
prefix does not have effect on it.<br><br>It seems to me that this =
satisfies the needs we discussed just now.<br><br><br>If we want to use =
both destination and source prefixes to control the usage of privacy =
extension,<br>we need additional mechanisms like Label.<br><br><br>Or, =
any other implementation form ?<br><br><br>On 2011/06/29, at 14:28, =
Arifumi Matsumoto wrote:<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">Hi =
Suresh,<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">On 2011/06/29, =
at 4:32, Suresh Krishnan wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">Hi Tim,<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">There is already a programmatic =
switch for this in RFC5014 (IPV6_PREFER_SRC_TMP/IPV6_PREFER_SRC_PUBLIC). =
Applications wishing to override system policy may do so by using this =
API.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">Yes. An =
application can control which kind of address to choose by that =
API.<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">Our question is =
whether we should have a way to configure host-wide policy about when to =
use temporary address or not.<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">For example, if =
we extend the policy table to have Privacy column like =
below,<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Prefix =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Precedence Label =
&nbsp;Privacy<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;::1/128 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;60 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;0 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;OFF<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;fc00::/7 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;50 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;OFF<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;::/0 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;40 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;ON<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;::ffff:0:0/96 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;30 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;3 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;OFF<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2002::/16 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;20=
 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;4 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;OFF<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2001::/32 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;10=
 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;5 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;OFF<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;::/96 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;10 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;OFF<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;fec0::/10 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;1 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;11 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;OFF<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">a temporary =
address will be used only when a destination address longest matches =
::/0 entry in this table.<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">Please note =
that this is about address selection and not about whether a host should =
generate temporary address for a received RA =
prefix.<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">As Tim =
mentioned, if we agree to have this kind of new tool, after that, we =
should discuss about policy distribution of this added =
column.<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">Best =
regards,<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">Cheers<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">Suresh<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">________________________________________<br></blockquote></b=
lockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">From: <a =
href=3D"mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org">ipv6-bounces@ietf.org</a> =
[ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tim Chown =
[tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk]<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 =
10:38 AM<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br></blockquote></blockquo=
te><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">Subject: =
rfc3484-bis issue 2: privacy =
addresses<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">The second issue is surrounding =
IPv6 privacy addresses =
(RFC4941).<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">Section 3.1 of RFC4941 =
states:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite">"this document assumes that when a node initiates =
outgoing<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"> communication, temporary =
addresses can be given preference =
over<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"> public addresses when the device is configured to do =
so.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"> [ADDR_SELECT&lt;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4941#ref-ADDR_SELECT">http://tools.i=
etf.org/html/rfc4941#ref-ADDR_SELECT</a>&gt;] mandates implementations =
to provide a mechanism, which<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"> allows an application to =
configure its preference for =
temporary<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"> addresses over public =
addresses. &nbsp;It also allows for =
an<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"> implementation to prefer temporary addresses by default, =
so that the<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"> connections initiated by the =
node can use temporary addresses =
without<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite"> requiring application-specific =
enablement."<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">This suggests there should be a =
mechanism for a host to choose whether to use temporary or public =
addresses. &nbsp;RFC3484 talks about preferring temporary or public =
addresses in Rule 7. &nbsp;In practice, implementations seem to prefer =
privacy addresses (to initiate connections) when they are enabled. =
&nbsp;At the moment, RFC3484-bis says nothing different or new for =
privacy addresses.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">Should there be a configuration =
switch for privacy extensions somewhere, and if so how is this =
controlled - locally or via a policy distribution =
mechanism?<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">In IETF80, the suggestion to =
'tell' a host whether it should use privacy addresses by using an RA =
flag was not well received. There was at least one comment at IETF80 =
that the privilege to carry the traffic and the privilege to turn on/off =
the privacy extension should be =
different.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">Comments =
please.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">Tim<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">------------------------------------------------------------=
--------<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">IETF IPv6 working group mailing =
list<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><a =
href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br></blockquote></blockquo=
te><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">Administrative =
Requests: <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/ipv6</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">------------------------------------------------------------=
--------<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">--<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">Arifumi =
Matsumoto<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"> NGN System =
Architecture Project<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"> NTT =
Service Integration Laboratories<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"> E-mail: <a =
href=3D"mailto:arifumi@nttv6.net">arifumi@nttv6.net</a><br></blockquote><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"> TEL +81-422-59-3334 FAX =
+81-422-59-6364<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">------------------------------------------------------------=
--------<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">IETF IPv6 working =
group mailing list<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><a =
href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br></blockquote><blockquot=
e type=3D"cite">Administrative Requests: <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/ipv6</a><br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">------------------------------------------------------------=
--------<br></blockquote><br>---------------------------------------------=
-----------------------<br>IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br>Administrative =
Requests: =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6<br>----------------------------=
----------------------------------------<br></div></blockquote></div><br><=
/div></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail-13-545977957--

From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 14:10:37 2011
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Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 23:10:20 +0200
From: Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>
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Subject: 2^64 is 10s of trillions (not just trillions)
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2^64 is 10s of trillions (not just trillions) and only for anglo-saxons.

2^64 is exabytes of memory (not giga, nor tera, nor peta).

I am not sure you look at adapting nd for these figures.

Alex

From jari.arkko@piuha.net  Tue Jul 26 14:47:50 2011
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From: Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
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I mentioned this draft on the mike line today:

  http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-core-sleepy-sensors

Implementing Tiny COAP Sensors

   The authors are developing COAP and IPv6-based sensor networks for
   environments where lightweight implementations, long battery
   lifetimes, and minimal management burden are important.  The memo
   shows how different communication models supported by COAP affect
   implementation complexity and energy consumption, far more so than
   mere changes in message syntax.  Our prototype implements a
   multicast-based IPv6, UDP, COAP, and XML protocol stack in less than
   50 assembler instructions.  While this extremely minimal
   implementation is suitable only for limited applications and makes a
   number of assumptions, the general conclusions point to need for
   further work in developing the COAP multicast and observation
   frameworks.

Comments appreciated.

Jari


From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com  Tue Jul 26 15:04:04 2011
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Comments on draft  draft-lynn-6man-6lobac-00:

- needs a section on multicast address mapping; it may not be 
straightforward: it may need to _not_ send all ip-multicasted messages 
to 255 link-layer address: the solicited-node multicast address includes 
the octet address (as opposed to eg ethernet 6octets) hence it could 
send it to that octet address (not 255).

- 1 Poll for Master - sounds as RS, why not mapping one into another?
   2 Reply to Poll for Master sounds as RA, same.

- MLD mapping could be as well useful.

Alex

From joelja@bogus.com  Tue Jul 26 15:05:37 2011
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Subject: Re: 2^64 is 10s of trillions (not just trillions)
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If you're commenting on v6nd draft I don't think we have any intention =
of connecting ~1.8 * 10^19 hosts to a subnet...


On Jul 26, 2011, at 5:10 PM, Alexandru Petrescu wrote:

> 2^64 is 10s of trillions (not just trillions) and only for =
anglo-saxons.
>=20
> 2^64 is exabytes of memory (not giga, nor tera, nor peta).
>=20
> I am not sure you look at adapting nd for these figures.
>=20
> Alex
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20


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Le 27/07/2011 00:05, Joel Jaeggli a �crit :
> If you're commenting on v6nd draft I don't think we have any intention of connecting ~1.8 * 10^19 hosts to a subnet...

Yes, commenting on the v6nd draft.

Listening to the disxcussion it so sounde to me that these were ND 
optimizations such as to support 2^64 nodes in a subnet.

Alex

>
>
> On Jul 26, 2011, at 5:10 PM, Alexandru Petrescu wrote:
>
>> 2^64 is 10s of trillions (not just trillions) and only for anglo-saxons.
>>
>> 2^64 is exabytes of memory (not giga, nor tera, nor peta).
>>
>> I am not sure you look at adapting nd for these figures.
>>
>> Alex
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> ipv6@ietf.org
>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>


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On Jul 26, 2011, at 6:09 PM, Alexandru Petrescu wrote:

> Le 27/07/2011 00:05, Joel Jaeggli a =E9crit :
>> If you're commenting on v6nd draft I don't think we have any =
intention of connecting ~1.8 * 10^19 hosts to a subnet...
>=20
> Yes, commenting on the v6nd draft.
>=20
> Listening to the disxcussion it so sounde to me that these were ND =
optimizations such as to support 2^64 nodes in a subnet.

goal is:

	to retain entries for things that we know under duress
=09
	to be able to learn new addresses when that router is resource =
constrained by prioritizing activities.

the implicit assumption is that memory is a limited commodity and there =
are higher priority things for the control plane processor to be doing =
instead of discovering hosts that don't exist due to incoming unicast =
packets...
=09


> Alex
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Jul 26, 2011, at 5:10 PM, Alexandru Petrescu wrote:
>>=20
>>> 2^64 is 10s of trillions (not just trillions) and only for =
anglo-saxons.
>>>=20
>>> 2^64 is exabytes of memory (not giga, nor tera, nor peta).
>>>=20
>>> I am not sure you look at adapting nd for these figures.
>>>=20
>>> Alex
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>>> ipv6@ietf.org
>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20


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On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 6:03 PM, Alexandru Petrescu <
alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:

> Comments on draft  draft-lynn-6man-6lobac-00:
>
> - needs a section on multicast address mapping; it may not be
> straightforward: it may need to _not_ send all ip-multicasted messages to
> 255 link-layer address: the solicited-node multicast address includes the
> octet address (as opposed to eg ethernet 6octets) hence it could send it to
> that octet address (not 255).
>
> The current version is -01; see section 9

It is a non-goal (perhaps this should be stated explicitly in the I-D)
to modify the current MS/TP state machines (other than the
extension for larger data frames already proposed in BACnet).

The only currently available option is 255 (all-nodes).  We *could*
look at MS/TP as a multicast challenged data link and support
functions like NS via RFC 4861 extensions as discussed in
IPv6 ND Optimization for Energy-aware
Devices<http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/81/slides/6man-8.pdf>

Plan B would be to look at using the 128-254 address range for
multicast mapping, but then we diverge from co-existence and
possibly need to modify state machines.


> - 1 Poll for Master - sounds as RS, why not mapping one into another?
>  2 Reply to Poll for Master sounds as RA, same.
>
> These are MAC control frames that are part of token generation
(or recovery from a lost token).  Again, modification of the MS/TP
MAC is a non-goal.  See section 2 for MS/TP MAC requirements.


> - MLD mapping could be as well useful.
>
> Can you say more about this?

Thanks, -K-


> Alex
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**--------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/ipv6<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6>
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**--------
>

--bcaec5304f3783753704a9007b09
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<div>On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 6:03 PM, Alexandru Petrescu <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com">alexandru.petrescu@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex;">
Comments on draft =A0draft-lynn-6man-6lobac-00:<br>
<br>
- needs a section on multicast address mapping; it may not be straightforwa=
rd: it may need to _not_ send all ip-multicasted messages to 255 link-layer=
 address: the solicited-node multicast address includes the octet address (=
as opposed to eg ethernet 6octets) hence it could send it to that octet add=
ress (not 255).<br>

<br></blockquote><div>The current version is -01; see section 9</div><div><=
br></div><div>It is a non-goal (perhaps this should be stated explicitly in=
 the I-D)</div><div>to modify the current MS/TP state machines (other than =
the</div>
<div>extension for larger data frames already proposed in BACnet).</div><di=
v><br></div><div>The only currently available option is 255 (all-nodes). =
=A0We *could*</div><div>look at=A0MS/TP as a multicast challenged data link=
 and support</div>
<div>functions=A0like NS via RFC 4861 extensions as discussed in</div><div>=
<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/81/slides/6man-8.pdf">IPv6 ND Optim=
ization for Energy-aware Devices</a></div><div><br></div><div>Plan B would =
be to look at using the 128-254 address range for</div>
<div>multicast mapping, but then we diverge from co-existence and</div><div=
>possibly need to modify state machines.</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex;">

- 1 Poll for Master - sounds as RS, why not mapping one into another?<br>
 =A02 Reply to Poll for Master sounds as RA, same.<br>
<br></blockquote><div>These are MAC control frames that are part of token g=
eneration</div><div>(or recovery from a lost token). =A0Again, modification=
 of the MS/TP</div><div>MAC is a non-goal. =A0See section 2 for MS/TP MAC r=
equirements.</div>
<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
- MLD mapping could be as well useful.<br>
<br></blockquote><div>Can you say more about this?</div><div><br></div><div=
>Thanks, -K-</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Alex<br>
------------------------------<u></u>------------------------------<u></u>-=
-------<br>
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br>
Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i=
pv6" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<u></u>listinfo/ipv6</a=
><br>
------------------------------<u></u>------------------------------<u></u>-=
-------<br>
</blockquote></div><br>

--bcaec5304f3783753704a9007b09--

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All,
     The minutes from Tuesday's meeting are now available at
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/6man.txt.

Many thanks to Fred Baker for taking minutes and to the Wes George &
Joel Jaeggli tag team for being the Jabber scribe.

Please let the chairs now if you find any errors/issues with the minutes.

Regards,
Brian & Bob

From jari.arkko@piuha.net  Thu Jul 28 10:55:18 2011
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Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 13:55:12 -0400
From: Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net>
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To: JP Vasseur <jpv@cisco.com>, Jonathan Hui <jhui@archrock.com>
Subject: AD reviews of draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option and draft-ietf-6man-rpl-routing-header
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JP, Jonathan,

Has there a been response to the two reviews from June? I'd like to move 
these drafts forward...

Jari

Jari Arkko kirjoitti:
> I have reviewed this draft. Some of the issues from the other draft 
> are visible in this one as well, and I saw two additional substantive 
> issues:
>
> - we need to specify the behavior with regards to the data in this 
> option better
> - the text about processing packets in RPL border routers should be 
> written in a different manner
>
> Both of these should be easily addressed, however. Please revise the 
> draft and we can send the draft to IETF Last Call.
>
> Here are my comments in more detail:
>
>> Datagrams being forwarded within a RPL domain MUST include a RPL
>> Option.  For datagrams sourced within a RPL domain, the RPL Option
>> MAY be included in the datagram itself.
>
> I'm not sure I understand the difference or its motivation. Do you 
> really mean that a packet might not have the option until it hits the 
> first router? Or are you just talking about something that happens 
> internally on a host, but on the wire all packets would still have the 
> option? Also, since the tunnel (or something else) is used to include 
> the option for datagrams sourced outside the RPL domain, wouldn't it 
> be easier to just say this:
>
> "Datagrams sent between nodes within an RPL domain MUST include an RPL 
> Option."
>
>>   For datagrams sourced
>>    outside a RPL domain, IPv6-in-IPv6 tunneling, as specified in
>>    [RFC2473 <http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2473>] SHOULD be used to 
>> include a RPL Option.
>
> This text should be aligned with whatever conclusion we will have for 
> the issue that I raised with the other document.
>
>> To help avoid IP-layer fragmentation, the RPL Option has a maximum
>> size of RPL_OPTION_MAX_SIZE octets and links within a RPL domain
>> SHOULD have a MTU of at least 1280 + 44 (outer IP header, Hop-by-Hop
>> Option header, Option header) + RPL_OPTION_MAX_SIZE + (additional
>> extension headers or options needed within RPL domain).
>>   
>
> There's a same MTU issue here as in the other document.
>
>> The action taken by using the RPL Option and the potential set of
>> sub-TLVs carried within the RPL Option MUST be specified by the RFC
>> of the protocol that use that option.  No TLVs are defined in this
>> document.
>>   
>
> I think you should define the behavior when a node encounters a 
> sub-TLV that it does not recognize. E.g., ignore and move on to the 
> next sub-TLV. Or do you want a stricter policy? In any case, for 
> future extensions it will be necessary to know how they are treated by 
> legacy RPL nodes.
>
>> In very specific cases, IPv6-in-IPv6 tunneling may be undesirable due
>> to the added cost and complexity required to process and carry a
>> datagram with two IPv6 headers.  [I-D.hui-6man-rpl-headers 
>> <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.hui-6man-rpl-headers>] 
>> describes
>> how to avoid using IPv6-in-IPv6 tunneling in such specific cases and
>> the risks involved.
>>   
>
> Again, the same comments as in the other draft. Please delete this 
> paragraph.
>
>> For datagrams exiting the RPL domain, RPL Border Routers MUST remove
>> the RPL Option from the datagram.  If the RPL Option was included
>> using tunneled mode and the RPL Border Router serves as the tunnel
>> end-point, removing the outer IPv6 header serves to remove the RPL
>> Option as well.  Otherwise, the RPL Border Router assumes that the
>> RPL Option was included using transport mode and MUST remove the RPL
>> Option from the IPv6 Hop-by-Hop Option header.
>>   
>
> The part about removing the RPL option even in a non-tunneled case 
> relates to the issue of supporting that particular mode of operation.
>
> But in addition, I wonder if you should write the above text not in 
> terms of packet modification operations but rather in terms of 
> forwarding decision outcomes. Like this, for instance:
>
> "For datagrams destined to the RPL Border Router the router processes 
> the packet in the usual way. For instance, if the RPL Option was 
> included using tunneled mode and the RPL Border Router serves as the 
> tunnel end-point, the router removes the outer IPv6 header, at the 
> same removing the RPL Option as well. Datagrams destined elsewhere 
> within the same RPL domain are forwarded to the right interface. 
> Datagrams destined outside the RPL domain are dropped."
>
>> 6. Usage of the RPL Option
>>
>>    The RPL Option is only for use within a RPL domain.  RPL routers MUST
>>    process and include the RPL Option when forwarding datagrams to other
>>    nodes within the RPL domain.  Routers on the edge of a RPL domain
>>    MUST remove the RPL Option when forwarding datagrams to nodes outside
>>    the RPL domain.
>
> What is it that this section says that is not already covered by 
> sections 2 and 5:
>
> Sect 2: Datagrams being forwarded within a RPL domain MUST include a 
> RPL Option.
>
> Sect 5: ... serves as the tunnel end-point, removing the outer IPv6 
> header serves to remove the RPL Option as well.  Otherwise, the RPL 
> Border Router assumes that the RPL Option was included using transport 
> mode and MUST remove the RPL Option from the IPv6 Hop-by-Hop Option 
> header.
>
>> This option may be used to mount several potential attacks since
>> routers may be flooded by bogus datagram containing the RPL option.
>> It is thus RECOMMENDED for routers to implement a rate limiter for
>>    datagrams using the RPL Option.
>>   
>
> Please open this up a bit. What specific danger does flooding by bogus 
> datagrams and RPL options cause? What would be the default settings 
> for the rate limiter?
>
>>    Opt Data Len:  8-bit field indicating the length of the option, in
>>          octets, excluding the Option Type and Opt Data Len fields.
>>
>>    Down 'O':  1-bit flag as defined in Section 11 of
>>          [I-D.ietf-roll-rpl 
>> <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.ietf-roll-rpl>]. 
>>
>>
>>    Rank-Error 'R':  1-bit flag as defined in Section 11 of
>>          [I-D.ietf-roll-rpl 
>> <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.ietf-roll-rpl>]. 
>>
>>
>>    Forwarding-Error 'F':  1-bit flag as defined in Section 11 of
>>          [I-D.ietf-roll-rpl 
>> <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.ietf-roll-rpl>]. 
>>
>>
>>    RPLInstanceID:  8-bit field as defined in Section 11 of
>>          [I-D.ietf-roll-rpl 
>> <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.ietf-roll-rpl>]. 
>>
>>
>>    SenderRank:  16-bit field as defined in Section 11 of
>>          [I-D.ietf-roll-rpl 
>> <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.ietf-roll-rpl>]. 
>>
>>
>>    Values within the RPL Option are expected to change en-route. 
>
> This specification needs to describe what the behavior of a router is 
> with the content of the option. I think this is easy, you should just 
> add to the end: "The processing shall follow the rules described in 
> Section 11.2 of [roll-rpl].
>
> As an aside, the entire Section 11 is marked in roll-rpl as 
> non-normative. I don't think that's actually right as far as 11.2 
> goes, because it contains tons of MUSTs and SHOULDs. Perhaps you want 
> to fix that in AUTH48...
>
> Jari
>
>


From jpv@cisco.com  Thu Jul 28 11:47:21 2011
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Subject: Re: AD reviews of draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option and draft-ietf-6man-rpl-routing-header
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From: JP Vasseur <jpv@cisco.com>
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Thanks a lot Jari, sorry for the delay, Jonathan and I just had a =
discussion and will send a proposal
this week.

Thanks.

JP.

On Jul 28, 2011, at 1:55 PM, Jari Arkko wrote:

> JP, Jonathan,
>=20
> Has there a been response to the two reviews from June? I'd like to =
move
> these drafts forward...
>=20
> Jari
>=20
> Jari Arkko kirjoitti:
> > I have reviewed this draft. Some of the issues from the other draft
> > are visible in this one as well, and I saw two additional =
substantive
> > issues:
> >
> > - we need to specify the behavior with regards to the data in this
> > option better
> > - the text about processing packets in RPL border routers should be
> > written in a different manner
> >
> > Both of these should be easily addressed, however. Please revise the
> > draft and we can send the draft to IETF Last Call.
> >
> > Here are my comments in more detail:
> >
> >> Datagrams being forwarded within a RPL domain MUST include a RPL
> >> Option.  For datagrams sourced within a RPL domain, the RPL Option
> >> MAY be included in the datagram itself.
> >
> > I'm not sure I understand the difference or its motivation. Do you
> > really mean that a packet might not have the option until it hits =
the
> > first router? Or are you just talking about something that happens
> > internally on a host, but on the wire all packets would still have =
the
> > option? Also, since the tunnel (or something else) is used to =
include
> > the option for datagrams sourced outside the RPL domain, wouldn't it
> > be easier to just say this:
> >
> > "Datagrams sent between nodes within an RPL domain MUST include an =
RPL
> > Option."
> >
> >>   For datagrams sourced
> >>    outside a RPL domain, IPv6-in-IPv6 tunneling, as specified in
> >>    [RFC2473 <http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2473>] SHOULD be used to
> >> include a RPL Option.
> >
> > This text should be aligned with whatever conclusion we will have =
for
> > the issue that I raised with the other document.
> >
> >> To help avoid IP-layer fragmentation, the RPL Option has a maximum
> >> size of RPL_OPTION_MAX_SIZE octets and links within a RPL domain
> >> SHOULD have a MTU of at least 1280 + 44 (outer IP header, =
Hop-by-Hop
> >> Option header, Option header) + RPL_OPTION_MAX_SIZE + (additional
> >> extension headers or options needed within RPL domain).
> >> =20
> >
> > There's a same MTU issue here as in the other document.
> >
> >> The action taken by using the RPL Option and the potential set of
> >> sub-TLVs carried within the RPL Option MUST be specified by the RFC
> >> of the protocol that use that option.  No TLVs are defined in this
> >> document.
> >> =20
> >
> > I think you should define the behavior when a node encounters a
> > sub-TLV that it does not recognize. E.g., ignore and move on to the
> > next sub-TLV. Or do you want a stricter policy? In any case, for
> > future extensions it will be necessary to know how they are treated =
by
> > legacy RPL nodes.
> >
> >> In very specific cases, IPv6-in-IPv6 tunneling may be undesirable =
due
> >> to the added cost and complexity required to process and carry a
> >> datagram with two IPv6 headers.  [I-D.hui-6man-rpl-headers
> >> =
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.hui-6man=
-rpl-headers>]
> >> describes
> >> how to avoid using IPv6-in-IPv6 tunneling in such specific cases =
and
> >> the risks involved.
> >> =20
> >
> > Again, the same comments as in the other draft. Please delete this
> > paragraph.
> >
> >> For datagrams exiting the RPL domain, RPL Border Routers MUST =
remove
> >> the RPL Option from the datagram.  If the RPL Option was included
> >> using tunneled mode and the RPL Border Router serves as the tunnel
> >> end-point, removing the outer IPv6 header serves to remove the RPL
> >> Option as well.  Otherwise, the RPL Border Router assumes that the
> >> RPL Option was included using transport mode and MUST remove the =
RPL
> >> Option from the IPv6 Hop-by-Hop Option header.
> >> =20
> >
> > The part about removing the RPL option even in a non-tunneled case
> > relates to the issue of supporting that particular mode of =
operation.
> >
> > But in addition, I wonder if you should write the above text not in
> > terms of packet modification operations but rather in terms of
> > forwarding decision outcomes. Like this, for instance:
> >
> > "For datagrams destined to the RPL Border Router the router =
processes
> > the packet in the usual way. For instance, if the RPL Option was
> > included using tunneled mode and the RPL Border Router serves as the
> > tunnel end-point, the router removes the outer IPv6 header, at the
> > same removing the RPL Option as well. Datagrams destined elsewhere
> > within the same RPL domain are forwarded to the right interface.
> > Datagrams destined outside the RPL domain are dropped."
> >
> >> 6. Usage of the RPL Option
> >>
> >>    The RPL Option is only for use within a RPL domain.  RPL routers =
MUST
> >>    process and include the RPL Option when forwarding datagrams to =
other
> >>    nodes within the RPL domain.  Routers on the edge of a RPL =
domain
> >>    MUST remove the RPL Option when forwarding datagrams to nodes =
outside
> >>    the RPL domain.
> >
> > What is it that this section says that is not already covered by
> > sections 2 and 5:
> >
> > Sect 2: Datagrams being forwarded within a RPL domain MUST include a
> > RPL Option.
> >
> > Sect 5: ... serves as the tunnel end-point, removing the outer IPv6
> > header serves to remove the RPL Option as well.  Otherwise, the RPL
> > Border Router assumes that the RPL Option was included using =
transport
> > mode and MUST remove the RPL Option from the IPv6 Hop-by-Hop Option
> > header.
> >
> >> This option may be used to mount several potential attacks since
> >> routers may be flooded by bogus datagram containing the RPL option.
> >> It is thus RECOMMENDED for routers to implement a rate limiter for
> >>    datagrams using the RPL Option.
> >> =20
> >
> > Please open this up a bit. What specific danger does flooding by =
bogus
> > datagrams and RPL options cause? What would be the default settings
> > for the rate limiter?
> >
> >>    Opt Data Len:  8-bit field indicating the length of the option, =
in
> >>          octets, excluding the Option Type and Opt Data Len fields.
> >>
> >>    Down 'O':  1-bit flag as defined in Section 11 of
> >>          [I-D.ietf-roll-rpl
> >> =
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.ietf-rol=
l-rpl>].
> >>
> >>
> >>    Rank-Error 'R':  1-bit flag as defined in Section 11 of
> >>          [I-D.ietf-roll-rpl
> >> =
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.ietf-rol=
l-rpl>].
> >>
> >>
> >>    Forwarding-Error 'F':  1-bit flag as defined in Section 11 of
> >>          [I-D.ietf-roll-rpl
> >> =
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.ietf-rol=
l-rpl>].
> >>
> >>
> >>    RPLInstanceID:  8-bit field as defined in Section 11 of
> >>          [I-D.ietf-roll-rpl
> >> =
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.ietf-rol=
l-rpl>].
> >>
> >>
> >>    SenderRank:  16-bit field as defined in Section 11 of
> >>          [I-D.ietf-roll-rpl
> >> =
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.ietf-rol=
l-rpl>].
> >>
> >>
> >>    Values within the RPL Option are expected to change en-route.
> >
> > This specification needs to describe what the behavior of a router =
is
> > with the content of the option. I think this is easy, you should =
just
> > add to the end: "The processing shall follow the rules described in
> > Section 11.2 of [roll-rpl].
> >
> > As an aside, the entire Section 11 is marked in roll-rpl as
> > non-normative. I don't think that's actually right as far as 11.2
> > goes, because it contains tons of MUSTs and SHOULDs. Perhaps you =
want
> > to fix that in AUTH48...
> >
> > Jari
> >
> >
>=20
>=20


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	charset=iso-8859-1

<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Thanks a lot Jari, sorry for the delay, Jonathan and I just had a discussion and will send a proposal<div>this week.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks.</div><div><br></div><div>JP.</div><div><br><div><div>On Jul 28, 2011, at 1:55 PM, Jari Arkko wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">


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<title>AD reviews of draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option and draft-ietf-6man-rpl-routing-header</title>

<div>
<!-- Converted from text/plain format --><p><font size="2">JP, Jonathan,<br>
<br>
Has there a been response to the two reviews from June? I'd like to move<br>
these drafts forward...<br>
<br>
Jari<br>
<br>
Jari Arkko kirjoitti:<br>
&gt; I have reviewed this draft. Some of the issues from the other draft<br>
&gt; are visible in this one as well, and I saw two additional substantive<br>
&gt; issues:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; - we need to specify the behavior with regards to the data in this<br>
&gt; option better<br>
&gt; - the text about processing packets in RPL border routers should be<br>
&gt; written in a different manner<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Both of these should be easily addressed, however. Please revise the<br>
&gt; draft and we can send the draft to IETF Last Call.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Here are my comments in more detail:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Datagrams being forwarded within a RPL domain MUST include a RPL<br>
&gt;&gt; Option.&nbsp; For datagrams sourced within a RPL domain, the RPL Option<br>
&gt;&gt; MAY be included in the datagram itself.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I'm not sure I understand the difference or its motivation. Do you<br>
&gt; really mean that a packet might not have the option until it hits the<br>
&gt; first router? Or are you just talking about something that happens<br>
&gt; internally on a host, but on the wire all packets would still have the<br>
&gt; option? Also, since the tunnel (or something else) is used to include<br>
&gt; the option for datagrams sourced outside the RPL domain, wouldn't it<br>
&gt; be easier to just say this:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; "Datagrams sent between nodes within an RPL domain MUST include an RPL<br>
&gt; Option."<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; For datagrams sourced<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; outside a RPL domain, IPv6-in-IPv6 tunneling, as specified in<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [RFC2473 &lt;<a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2473">http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2473</a>&gt;] SHOULD be used to<br>
&gt;&gt; include a RPL Option.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This text should be aligned with whatever conclusion we will have for<br>
&gt; the issue that I raised with the other document.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; To help avoid IP-layer fragmentation, the RPL Option has a maximum<br>
&gt;&gt; size of RPL_OPTION_MAX_SIZE octets and links within a RPL domain<br>
&gt;&gt; SHOULD have a MTU of at least 1280 + 44 (outer IP header, Hop-by-Hop<br>
&gt;&gt; Option header, Option header) + RPL_OPTION_MAX_SIZE + (additional<br>
&gt;&gt; extension headers or options needed within RPL domain).<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; There's a same MTU issue here as in the other document.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; The action taken by using the RPL Option and the potential set of<br>
&gt;&gt; sub-TLVs carried within the RPL Option MUST be specified by the RFC<br>
&gt;&gt; of the protocol that use that option.&nbsp; No TLVs are defined in this<br>
&gt;&gt; document.<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think you should define the behavior when a node encounters a<br>
&gt; sub-TLV that it does not recognize. E.g., ignore and move on to the<br>
&gt; next sub-TLV. Or do you want a stricter policy? In any case, for<br>
&gt; future extensions it will be necessary to know how they are treated by<br>
&gt; legacy RPL nodes.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; In very specific cases, IPv6-in-IPv6 tunneling may be undesirable due<br>
&gt;&gt; to the added cost and complexity required to process and carry a<br>
&gt;&gt; datagram with two IPv6 headers.&nbsp; [I-D.hui-6man-rpl-headers<br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.hui-6man-rpl-headers">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.hui-6man-rpl-headers</a>&gt;]<br>
&gt;&gt; describes<br>
&gt;&gt; how to avoid using IPv6-in-IPv6 tunneling in such specific cases and<br>
&gt;&gt; the risks involved.<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Again, the same comments as in the other draft. Please delete this<br>
&gt; paragraph.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; For datagrams exiting the RPL domain, RPL Border Routers MUST remove<br>
&gt;&gt; the RPL Option from the datagram.&nbsp; If the RPL Option was included<br>
&gt;&gt; using tunneled mode and the RPL Border Router serves as the tunnel<br>
&gt;&gt; end-point, removing the outer IPv6 header serves to remove the RPL<br>
&gt;&gt; Option as well.&nbsp; Otherwise, the RPL Border Router assumes that the<br>
&gt;&gt; RPL Option was included using transport mode and MUST remove the RPL<br>
&gt;&gt; Option from the IPv6 Hop-by-Hop Option header.<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The part about removing the RPL option even in a non-tunneled case<br>
&gt; relates to the issue of supporting that particular mode of operation.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; But in addition, I wonder if you should write the above text not in<br>
&gt; terms of packet modification operations but rather in terms of<br>
&gt; forwarding decision outcomes. Like this, for instance:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; "For datagrams destined to the RPL Border Router the router processes<br>
&gt; the packet in the usual way. For instance, if the RPL Option was<br>
&gt; included using tunneled mode and the RPL Border Router serves as the<br>
&gt; tunnel end-point, the router removes the outer IPv6 header, at the<br>
&gt; same removing the RPL Option as well. Datagrams destined elsewhere<br>
&gt; within the same RPL domain are forwarded to the right interface.<br>
&gt; Datagrams destined outside the RPL domain are dropped."<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 6. Usage of the RPL Option<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The RPL Option is only for use within a RPL domain.&nbsp; RPL routers MUST<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; process and include the RPL Option when forwarding datagrams to other<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; nodes within the RPL domain.&nbsp; Routers on the edge of a RPL domain<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; MUST remove the RPL Option when forwarding datagrams to nodes outside<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the RPL domain.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; What is it that this section says that is not already covered by<br>
&gt; sections 2 and 5:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Sect 2: Datagrams being forwarded within a RPL domain MUST include a<br>
&gt; RPL Option.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Sect 5: ... serves as the tunnel end-point, removing the outer IPv6<br>
&gt; header serves to remove the RPL Option as well.&nbsp; Otherwise, the RPL<br>
&gt; Border Router assumes that the RPL Option was included using transport<br>
&gt; mode and MUST remove the RPL Option from the IPv6 Hop-by-Hop Option<br>
&gt; header.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; This option may be used to mount several potential attacks since<br>
&gt;&gt; routers may be flooded by bogus datagram containing the RPL option.<br>
&gt;&gt; It is thus RECOMMENDED for routers to implement a rate limiter for<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; datagrams using the RPL Option.<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please open this up a bit. What specific danger does flooding by bogus<br>
&gt; datagrams and RPL options cause? What would be the default settings<br>
&gt; for the rate limiter?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Opt Data Len:&nbsp; 8-bit field indicating the length of the option, in<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; octets, excluding the Option Type and Opt Data Len fields.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Down 'O':&nbsp; 1-bit flag as defined in Section 11 of<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [I-D.ietf-roll-rpl<br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.ietf-roll-rpl">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.ietf-roll-rpl</a>&gt;].<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Rank-Error 'R':&nbsp; 1-bit flag as defined in Section 11 of<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [I-D.ietf-roll-rpl<br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.ietf-roll-rpl">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.ietf-roll-rpl</a>&gt;].<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Forwarding-Error 'F':&nbsp; 1-bit flag as defined in Section 11 of<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [I-D.ietf-roll-rpl<br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.ietf-roll-rpl">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.ietf-roll-rpl</a>&gt;].<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; RPLInstanceID:&nbsp; 8-bit field as defined in Section 11 of<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [I-D.ietf-roll-rpl<br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.ietf-roll-rpl">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.ietf-roll-rpl</a>&gt;].<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SenderRank:&nbsp; 16-bit field as defined in Section 11 of<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [I-D.ietf-roll-rpl<br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.ietf-roll-rpl">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.ietf-roll-rpl</a>&gt;].<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Values within the RPL Option are expected to change en-route.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This specification needs to describe what the behavior of a router is<br>
&gt; with the content of the option. I think this is easy, you should just<br>
&gt; add to the end: "The processing shall follow the rules described in<br>
&gt; Section 11.2 of [roll-rpl].<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; As an aside, the entire Section 11 is marked in roll-rpl as<br>
&gt; non-normative. I don't think that's actually right as far as 11.2<br>
&gt; goes, because it contains tons of MUSTs and SHOULDs. Perhaps you want<br>
&gt; to fix that in AUTH48...<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Jari<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</font>
</p>

</div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>
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From wwwrun@rfc-editor.org  Thu Jul 28 13:19:43 2011
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Subject: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5952 (2872)
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The following errata report has been submitted for RFC5952,
"A Recommendation for IPv6 Address Text Representation".

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=5952&eid=2872

--------------------------------------
Type: Technical
Reported by: Richard J. Smith <rjsmith2@cisco.com>

Section: 5

Original Text
-------------
For these addresses, mixed notation is RECOMMENDED if the following condition is met: the address can be distinguished as having IPv4 addresses embedded in the lower 32 bits solely from the address field through the use of a well-known prefix.


Corrected Text
--------------
For these addresses, mixed notation is RECOMMENDED if the following conditions are met: the address can be distinguished as having IPv4 addresses embedded in the lower 32 bits solely from the address field through the use of a well-known prefix, and the entire address is not either the unspecified IPv6 address "::" or the loopback IPv6 address "::1".


Notes
-----
RFC-4291 defines the 80-bit all-zeros prefix as indicating an "IPv4-compatible IPv6 address". Without further clarification in section 5 of RFC-5952, the recommended formatting of the IPv6 unspecified address would be "::0.0.0.0", and the recommended formatting of the IPv6 loopback address would be "::0.0.0.1". Neither of these recommended representations is desirable.

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can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. 

--------------------------------------
RFC5952 (draft-ietf-6man-text-addr-representation-07)
--------------------------------------
Title               : A Recommendation for IPv6 Address Text Representation
Publication Date    : August 2010
Author(s)           : S. Kawamura, M. Kawashima
Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
Source              : IPv6 Maintenance
Area                : Internet
Stream              : IETF
Verifying Party     : IESG

From kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com  Thu Jul 28 17:05:08 2011
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Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5952 (2872)
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Hi Richard,

Thank you for your report.
I think this is better discussed in 6man.

But I think it is not an error.
Section 5 describes "Embedded IPv4 Addresses" for mixed notation.
IPv6 unspecified address and IPv6 loopback address are out of scope.

Moreover, the 80-bit all-zeros prefix is not "IPv4-compatible IPv6 address".
We should not use the 80-bit all-zeros prefix to identify embedded IPv4 addresses.

I didn't understand what you mean.
Please describe more detail.

Regards,
Masanobu


>
>The following errata report has been submitted for RFC5952,
>"A Recommendation for IPv6 Address Text Representation".
>
>--------------------------------------
>You may review the report below and at:
>http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=5952&eid=2872
>
>--------------------------------------
>Type: Technical
>Reported by: Richard J. Smith <rjsmith2@cisco.com>
>
>Section: 5
>
>Original Text
>-------------
>For these addresses, mixed notation is RECOMMENDED if the following condition is met: the address can be distinguished as having IPv4 addresses embedded in the lower 32 bits solely from the address field through the use of a well-known prefix.
>
>
>Corrected Text
>--------------
>For these addresses, mixed notation is RECOMMENDED if the following conditions are met: the address can be distinguished as having IPv4 addresses embedded in the lower 32 bits solely from the address field through the use of a well-known prefix, and the entire address is not either the unspecified IPv6 address "::" or the loopback IPv6 address "::1".
>
>
>Notes
>-----
>RFC-4291 defines the 80-bit all-zeros prefix as indicating an "IPv4-compatible IPv6 address". Without further clarification in section 5 of RFC-5952, the recommended formatting of the IPv6 unspecified address would be "::0.0.0.0", and the recommended formatting of the IPv6 loopback address would be "::0.0.0.1". Neither of these recommended representations is desirable.
>
>Instructions:
>-------------
>This errata is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
>use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
>rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG)
>can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. 
>
>--------------------------------------
>RFC5952 (draft-ietf-6man-text-addr-representation-07)
>--------------------------------------
>Title               : A Recommendation for IPv6 Address Text Representation
>Publication Date    : August 2010
>Author(s)           : S. Kawamura, M. Kawashima
>Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
>Source              : IPv6 Maintenance
>Area                : Internet
>Stream              : IETF
>Verifying Party     : IESG

¢(._.)
========================================
 NEC AccessTechnica, Ltd.               
 Product Development Department         
 Masanobu Kawashima                     
 kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com               
 http://www.necat.co.jp/                
========================================


From frnkblk@iname.com  Thu Jul 28 18:19:40 2011
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From: "Frank Bulk" <frnkblk@iname.com>
To: "'Christian Huitema'" <huitema@microsoft.com>, "Philip Homburg" <pch-6man@u-1.phicoh.com>, "Mark Smith" <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
References: <D4F95C5E-20A3-4B1E-8211-07B7831F3E89@gmail.com>	<5022DA1A-2DAD-412F-9742-0780389D8B09@bogus.com>	<E3161138-0CAA-44E8-A329-E71408D0AE61@gmail.com>	<424D0613-0E51-48CE-ACA9-8059D1071391@cisco.com>	<20110717113237.0137abcd@opy.nosense.org>	<m1QiN79-0001jMC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net>	<A1924BC2-B42D-4A06-8122-ABFF325E1CF4@steffann.nl>	<20110717215320.73e71245@opy.nosense.org>	<20110717224840.574ab41f@opy.nosense.org>	<m1QiRWn-0001i7C@stereo.hq.phicoh.net>	<20110717234105.04069322@opy.nosense.org>	<m1QiSmU-0001iBC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <22F6318E46E26B498ABC828879B08D4F1BBA05@TK5EX14MBXW651.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com>
In-Reply-To: <22F6318E46E26B498ABC828879B08D4F1BBA05@TK5EX14MBXW651.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS" concerns	?
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 20:19:36 -0500
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Just like some routers allow one to partition the RIB between v4 and v6
address space, the ND cache could be customizably split between good and
"bad" cache (i.e. 80-20), with the bad operating on a FIFO basis with some
kind of customizable COPS-style rate-limiter attached to that "bad" cache.
This would give the network guy the necessary knobs to manage ND DoS.

Frank

-----Original Message-----
From: v6ops-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Christian Huitema
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2011 11:09 AM
To: Philip Homburg; Mark Smith
Cc: IPv6 Operations; ipv6@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Best venue to begin addressing the "/64 ND DoS"
concerns ?

>So perhaps the changes required would be mostly limited to -
>
>- DADs to all-nodes rather than solicited node addresses
>- nodes receiving the DAD use that to create a neighbor cache entry
>- NUD takes care of maintaining the validity of those entries
>- ND NS to all nodes with an unspecified target address solicits NAs
>  from all nodes to cover the router (or any device) reboot situation

I am not sure this addresses the problem too well. The DOS issue manifests
itself at the gateway, and the main issue is the remote DOS: attacker sends
packets to a very large number of putative IPv6 addresses in the subnet
managed by the local gateway, causing the size of the neighbor cache to
explode. If we want to protect the cache in the gateway, let's do that. The
solution has to be a tweak in the implementation of ND in the gateway, along
the lines of:

- Upon arrival of a packet from the local network:
- If the source address is already in ND cache, keep it there
- if the source address is not already in the ND cache:
	Perform some quota check on the source MAC address,
	If the quota is exceeded, drop the packet to protect against local
DOS
	If the quota is not exceeded, perform ND for the source address

- Upon arrival of a packet bound to the local subnet
- If the destination address is already in ND cache, route the packet;
- If the destination address is not in ND cache:
	If the table is "too full," drop the packet
	Else, perform ND

The basic idea is that remote parties should only be sending to addresses
that have already been discovered in the local subnet. This is, in a way, a
weak form of stateful filtering. It needs to be implemented softly, because
routers/gateways sometime lose their memory, so we want to allow for some
dynamic learning if the tables are not already populated.

The proposed tweaks amount to making ND learn faster. They are fine in
general, but they have the side effect of making local DOS easier. A local
attacker could generate a large number of addresses, etc.

-- Christian Huitema



_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


From kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com  Fri Jul 29 11:42:31 2011
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To: "Rich Smith (rjsmith2)" <rjsmith2@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5952 (2872)
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Hi Richard,

Thank you for your reply.

>These sections clearly indicate that addresses with the first 96 bits
> all-zero have embedded IPv4 addresses. 

I don't think so.
You have missed note below in Section 2.5.5.1.

===================================================================
Note: The IPv4 address used in the "IPv4-Compatible IPv6 address"
must be a globally-unique IPv4 unicast address.
===================================================================

::(Unspecified Address) and ::1(Loopback Address) are not
 globally-unique IPv4 unicast address.
We should not use the 96-bit all-zeros prefix to identify
 embedded IPv4 addresses.
We have to check last 32 bits of the address.
Thus, we don't need any addition. It is not an error.


>By the way, I want to thank you for authoring this RFC, since it solves
> a major problem we have, which is searching for and matching IPv6 addresses
> that are represented as text. 

Thank you for your feedback.
I'm so glad to hear that. :-)

Regards,
Masanobu


>RFC-4291 (IP Version 6 Addressing Architecture), which RFC-5952 references, has a section 2.5.5 called "IPv6 Addresses with Embedded IPv4 Addresses". Presumably, this is what RFC-5952 is referring to. Section 2.5.5 two subsections. The first subsection 2.5.5.1 is called "IPv4-Compatible IPv6 Address". Let me copy it here:
>
>2.5.5.1.  IPv4-Compatible IPv6 Address
>
>   The "IPv4-Compatible IPv6 address" was defined to assist in the IPv6
>   transition.  The format of the "IPv4-Compatible IPv6 address" is as
>   follows:
>
>   |                80 bits               | 16 |      32 bits        |
>   +--------------------------------------+--------------------------+
>   |0000..............................0000|0000|    IPv4 address     |
>   +--------------------------------------+----+---------------------+
>
>   Note: The IPv4 address used in the "IPv4-Compatible IPv6 address"
>   must be a globally-unique IPv4 unicast address.
>
>   The "IPv4-Compatible IPv6 address" is now deprecated because the
>   current IPv6 transition mechanisms no longer use these addresses.
>   New or updated implementations are not required to support this
>   address type.
>
>In addition, in RFC-4291 has a section 2.2 called "Text Representation of Addresses", which has the following paragraph regarding mixed IPv6 / IPv4 addresses:
>
>   3. An alternative form that is sometimes more convenient when dealing
>      with a mixed environment of IPv4 and IPv6 nodes is
>      x:x:x:x:x:x:d.d.d.d, where the 'x's are the hexadecimal values of
>      the six high-order 16-bit pieces of the address, and the 'd's are
>      the decimal values of the four low-order 8-bit pieces of the
>      address (standard IPv4 representation).  Examples:
>
>         0:0:0:0:0:0:13.1.68.3
>
>         0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:129.144.52.38
>
>      or in compressed form:
>
>         ::13.1.68.3
>
>         ::FFFF:129.144.52.38
>
>These sections clearly indicate that addresses with the first 96 bits all-zero have embedded IPv4 addresses. It does say that this prefix is deprecated, but deprecated or not, RFC-4291 clearly defines 96 bits of zero to contain an embedded IPv4 address, and then shows it in at least two examples.
>
>Thus my confusion from this paragraph in RFC-5952, section 5:
>
>5.  Text Representation of Special Addresses
>
>   Addresses such as IPv4-Mapped IPv6 addresses, ISATAP [RFC5214], and
>   IPv4-translatable addresses [ADDR-FORMAT] have IPv4 addresses
>   embedded in the low-order 32 bits of the address.  These addresses
>   have a special representation that may mix hexadecimal and dot
>   decimal notations.  The decimal notation may be used only for the
>   last 32 bits of the address.  For these addresses, mixed notation is
>   RECOMMENDED if the following condition is met: the address can be
>   distinguished as having IPv4 addresses embedded in the lower 32 bits
>   solely from the address field through the use of a well-known prefix.
>   Such prefixes are defined in [RFC4291] and [RFC2765] at the time of
>   this writing.  If it is known by some external method that a given
>   prefix is used to embed IPv4, it MAY be represented as mixed
>   notation.  Tools that provide options to specify prefixes that are
>   (or are not) to be represented as mixed notation may be useful.
>
>specifically "solely... through the use of a well-known prefix" then citing RFC-4291.
>
>RFC-4291 does define 96 bits of zero as a well-known IPv4 address prefix, as I've pasted above. 
>
>If it was your intention that readers of RFC-5952 IGNORE section 2.5.5.1 of RFC-4291, then YOU MUST MAKE THAT CLEAR because NOTHING in RFC-5952 says to do that. In fact, just the opposite is at least implied, and implied because sections 2.2 and 2.5.5.1 clearly show 96-bit all-zeros prefix indicate an embedded IPv4 address, and RFC-5952 references this standard with no additional clarification other than to go solely by the address prefix. 
>
>So, I want it made clear EITHER: a) Ignore section 2.5.5.1 of RFC-4291, which is to say that the 96-bit all-zero prefix is NOT intended to indicate an embedded IPv4 address, or b) make it clear that at least :: and ::1 are not to be treated as embedded IPv4 addresses because they are, in fact, well-known IPv6 addresses. The latter was my suggestion from the original errata. 
>
>If you require further clarification, then let me know. I don't know if I can make it any clearer. I've pasted the relevant sections of RFC-5952 and RFC-4291. But, if this is not enough, then I can try to provide more information if you need it. 
>
>By the way, I want to thank you for authoring this RFC, since it solves a major problem we have, which is searching for and matching IPv6 addresses that are represented as text. 
>
>Thanks. 
>
>     --Rich
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Masanobu Kawashima [mailto:kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com] 
>Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 5:04 PM
>To: Rich Smith (rjsmith2); ipv6@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5952 (2872)
>
>
>Hi Richard,
>
>Thank you for your report.
>I think this is better discussed in 6man.
>
>But I think it is not an error.
>Section 5 describes "Embedded IPv4 Addresses" for mixed notation.
>IPv6 unspecified address and IPv6 loopback address are out of scope.
>
>Moreover, the 80-bit all-zeros prefix is not "IPv4-compatible IPv6 address".
>We should not use the 80-bit all-zeros prefix to identify embedded IPv4 addresses.
>
>I didn't understand what you mean.
>Please describe more detail.
>
>Regards,
>Masanobu
>
>
>>
>>The following errata report has been submitted for RFC5952,
>>"A Recommendation for IPv6 Address Text Representation".
>>
>>--------------------------------------
>>You may review the report below and at:
>>http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=5952&eid=2872
>>
>>--------------------------------------
>>Type: Technical
>>Reported by: Richard J. Smith <rjsmith2@cisco.com>
>>
>>Section: 5
>>
>>Original Text
>>-------------
>>For these addresses, mixed notation is RECOMMENDED if the following condition is met: the address can be distinguished as having IPv4 addresses embedded in the lower 32 bits solely from the address field through the use of a well-known prefix.
>>
>>
>>Corrected Text
>>--------------
>>For these addresses, mixed notation is RECOMMENDED if the following conditions are met: the address can be distinguished as having IPv4 addresses embedded in the lower 32 bits solely from the address field through the use of a well-known prefix, and the entire address is not either the unspecified IPv6 address "::" or the loopback IPv6 address "::1".
>>
>>
>>Notes
>>-----
>>RFC-4291 defines the 80-bit all-zeros prefix as indicating an "IPv4-compatible IPv6 address". Without further clarification in section 5 of RFC-5952, the recommended formatting of the IPv6 unspecified address would be "::0.0.0.0", and the recommended formatting of the IPv6 loopback address would be "::0.0.0.1". Neither of these recommended representations is desirable.
>>
>>Instructions:
>>-------------
>>This errata is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
>>use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
>>rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG)
>>can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. 
>>
>>--------------------------------------
>>RFC5952 (draft-ietf-6man-text-addr-representation-07)
>>--------------------------------------
>>Title               : A Recommendation for IPv6 Address Text Representation
>>Publication Date    : August 2010
>>Author(s)           : S. Kawamura, M. Kawashima
>>Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
>>Source              : IPv6 Maintenance
>>Area                : Internet
>>Stream              : IETF
>>Verifying Party     : IESG
>
>¢(._.)
>========================================
> NEC AccessTechnica, Ltd.               
> Product Development Department         
> Masanobu Kawashima                     
> kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com               
> http://www.necat.co.jp/                
>========================================
>

¢(._.)
========================================
 NEC AccessTechnica, Ltd.               
 Product Development Department         
 Masanobu Kawashima                     
 kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com               
 http://www.necat.co.jp/                
========================================


From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Fri Jul 29 13:05:10 2011
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Maintenance Working Group of the=
 IETF.

	Title           : IPv6 Flow Label Specification
	Author(s)       : Shane Amante
                          Brian Carpenter
                          Sheng Jiang
                          Jarno Rajahalme
	Filename        : draft-ietf-6man-flow-3697bis-07.txt
	Pages           : 17
	Date            : 2011-07-29

   This document specifies the IPv6 Flow Label field and the minimum
   requirements for IPv6 nodes labeling flows, IPv6 nodes forwarding
   labeled packets, and flow state establishment methods.  Even when
   mentioned as examples of possible uses of the flow labeling, more
   detailed requirements for specific use cases are out of scope for
   this document.

   The usage of the Flow Label field enables efficient IPv6 flow
   classification based only on IPv6 main header fields in fixed
   positions.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-flow-3697bis-07.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-flow-3697bis-07.txt

From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Fri Jul 29 13:20:05 2011
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This update is intended to respond to all the IESG comments.

For an overview of where the three flow label drafts are at, see
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search/?name=draft-ietf-6man-flow&activeDrafts=on&search_submit=

  Brian

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-6man-flow-3697bis-07.txt
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 13:05:09 -0700
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
CC: ipv6@ietf.org

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6
Maintenance Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : IPv6 Flow Label Specification
	Author(s)       : Shane Amante
                          Brian Carpenter
                          Sheng Jiang
                          Jarno Rajahalme
	Filename        : draft-ietf-6man-flow-3697bis-07.txt
	Pages           : 17
	Date            : 2011-07-29

   This document specifies the IPv6 Flow Label field and the minimum
   requirements for IPv6 nodes labeling flows, IPv6 nodes forwarding
   labeled packets, and flow state establishment methods.  Even when
   mentioned as examples of possible uses of the flow labeling, more
   detailed requirements for specific use cases are out of scope for
   this document.

   The usage of the Flow Label field enables efficient IPv6 flow
   classification based only on IPv6 main header fields in fixed
   positions.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-flow-3697bis-07.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-6man-flow-3697bis-07.txt
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Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-6man-rpl-routing-header
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Hi Jari,

Thanks for the review.  As you did below, I too need to apologize for =
the delay in responding.  See my responses below:

On Jun 10, 2011, at 3:46 PM, Jari Arkko wrote:

> I have reviewed this draft.
>=20
> I have a number of comments, most of which are at this point questions =
and discussion items. The comments are included below in three =
categories: technical comments, editorial comments, and comments =
relating to feedback from other people that may not been fully handled =
yet. In general, the draft is well written and largely ready to move to =
a Proposed Standard RFC. However, there are a couple of issues that we =
need to discuss: MTU requirements, recommendations to consider =
alternative designs that exist only as Internet Drafts, and the =
feasibility of the loop check.
>=20
> I also need to apologize that it has taken far too long for me to do =
this review. There's no good excuse, but I've had some number of other =
documents in the queue this spring, day job requirements, and I knew I =
needed to review this document carefully. The rpl-option draft is next =
on my reading queue, probably reviewed by Monday.
>=20
> Technical:
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>=20
>> links within a RPL domain SHOULD have
>> a MTU of at least 1280 + 40 (outer IP header) + SRH_MAX_SIZE (+
>> additional extension headers or options needed within RPL domain)
>> octets.
>> =20
>=20
> I thought that 6LOWPAN was an important link layer for the application =
of RPL. Yet, RFC 4944 specifies a MTU of 1280 octets. The above =
requirement seems to be in contradiction with what is available on =
6LOWPAN. Am I missing some extension of 6LOWPAN that changes the MTU, or =
some other link layer that is expected to be used with RPL? If I'm not =
missing anything, wouldn't this cause a problem? It would seem that =
either you cannot run RPL on 6LOWPAN, run 6LOWPAN on non standard MTU =
values (and we know MTU negotiation is difficult), or you have to change =
the expectations of other nodes in the IPv6 Internet about the minimum =
assured MTU.
>=20
> Please clarify/resolve/tell me what I am missing.

Yes, 6LoWPAN is one of the target link layers.  I agree that this =
statement is problematic with strict adherence to RFC 4944.  Note, =
however, that there are IEEE 802.15.4 variants (i.e. 802.15.4g) that =
support frame lengths up to 2KB.  I'm not sure it would be wise to limit =
the capabilities of alternative IEEE 802.15.4 link technologies.

I would propose to remove the cited statement.  It is unnecessary given =
that the next revision of this draft will require tunneling.

>> A common network configuration for a RPL domain is that all nodes
>> within a LLN share a common prefix.  The SRH introduces the CmprI,
>> CmprE, and Pad fields to allow compaction of the Address[1..n] vector
>> when all entries share the same prefix as the IPv6 Destination
>> Address field of the packet carrying the SRH.
>=20
> So all segments are treated based on how many bytes they have in =
common with the destination address. But the destination address keeps =
changing as we go through the intermediate hops. Is it necessary to =
clarify that the comparison/shared prefix is with the final destination =
address, NOT the address that happens to be in the destination address =
field currently?

The intent really was to utilize the current IPv6 Destination value =
since all entries except the last will carry the same CmprI prefix =
bytes.  Now, I can see there is an issue when we consider the final =
entry controlled by CmprE.  The intent was that CmprE would only differ =
when operating in "transport mode" and the SRH would thus be removed =
according to Section 5 of the draft.

>> In very specific cases, IPv6-in-IPv6 tunneling may be undesirable due
>> to the added cost and complexity required to process and carry a
>> datagram with two IPv6 headers.  [I-D.hui-6man-rpl-headers =
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-routing-header-03#ref-I-D.=
hui-6man-rpl-headers>] describes
>> how to avoid using IPv6-in-IPv6 tunneling in such specific cases and
>> the risks involved.
>> =20
>=20
> This sounds like a recommendation to do something in a draft that has =
not been through the working group and approved as the something that is =
a sound practice. Unless the reference is normative, I think it is =
inappropriate to refer to an Internet draft in this manner.
>=20
> What I would recommend is to (1) change the "... SHOULD use =
IPv6-in-IPv6 tunneling ..." statement to a MUST in this draft, (2) =
remove the above text, and (3) make the corresponding changes to Section =
5. Then we can take hui-6man-rpl-headers through the working group and =
provide a second, more light-weight approach that extends what we have =
RFC-to-be-draft-ietf-6man-rpl-routing-header.
>=20
> (FWIW, I think the problem begins when one adds the first byte to a =
packet somewhere along the route. It does not not matter so much how =
many bytes one adds, just the SRH or also the IP header. Most of the =
complications on MTUs and so one start at that point. In any case, SRHs =
may not be trivially small either. Assuming 64-bit prefix compression an =
SRH for 4 hops would be 40 bytes.)

In general, I agree with your concern.  However, after re-reading the =
draft, do is it necessary to mandate a particular solution (i.e. RFC =
2473)?  Instead, how do you feel about the following modified text:

   To deliver a datagram, a router MAY specify a source route to reach
   the destination using a SRH.  There are two cases that determine how
   to include an SRH with a datagram.

   1.  When the source node inserts an SRH, it may do so directly
        within the datagram itself.

   2.  When an intermediate node inserts an SRH, it should do so in
        a way that does not cause path MTU issues and ensures ICMP
        errors caused by inserting the SRH return to the source of the
        SRH rather than the original datagram.  One such method is
        IPv6-in-IPv6 tunneling [RFC 2473].

>> If such addresses appear more than once and are separated by at least
>> one address not assigned to that router, the router MUST drop the
>> packet and SHOULD send an ICMP Parameter Problem, Code 0, to the
>> Source Address.
>> =20
> ...
>=20
>>    else if 2 or more entries in Address[1..n] are assigned to
>>             local interface and are separated by at least one
>>             address not assigned to local interface {
>>       discard the packet
>>    }
>> =20
>=20
> The text and the code appear to disagree about whether to send an ICMP =
Parameter Problem message. Please align. I assume that an ICMP message =
is needed.

Agree.

>> Because this document specifies that SRH is only for use within a RPL
>> domain, such attacks cannot be mounted from outside the RPL domain.
>> As described in Section 5 =
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-routing-header-03#section-=
5>, RPL Border Routers MUST drop datagrams
>> entering or exiting the RPL domain that contain a SRH in the IPv6
>> Extension headers.
>> =20
>=20
> This is good, and I think the security considerations are sufficient. =
However, I would be happier if the draft also recommended that by =
default, non-RPL routers and firewalls should drop packets with SRH. =
This would help ensure that SRH does not accidentally enter any network =
and expose some vulnerability. The practical effect that I'm looking for =
is, for instance, not having my Linux kernel process SRH unless I've =
configured it to use RPL.

Agree.

> Editorial:
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>=20
>> In the above scenario, datagrams traveling from source, S, to
>> destination, D, have the following packet structure:
>>=20
>>=20
>>               +------+------+------+--------//-+
>>               | IPv6 | IPv6 | IPv6 | Packet    |
>>               | Src  | Dst  | SRH  | Payload   |
>>               +------+------+------+--------//-+
>> =20
>=20
> This figure is not as clear as it could be. Are the src and dst field =
referring to the IPv6 header fields? Would this picture be better if you =
showed the IPv6 header explicitly? Please clarify.

Yes, the src and dst fields are IPv6 header fields.  Will update the =
figure to be more explicit.

>> CmprE             4-bit unsigned integer.  Number of prefix octets
>>                  from the segment that are elided.  For example, a
>>                  SRH carrying a full IPv6 address in Addresses[n]
>>                  sets CmprE to 0.
>> =20
>=20
> I understood the definition CmprI, but I do not understand this, at =
least not at the point of the above text. What is "the segment" that you =
are referring to above? SRH carries multiple segments. Please clarify.
>=20
> Little further down it becomes clear that CmprE refers to the =
compression of the last segment. Please make this clear already in the =
above text.

Correct.  Will clarify in the next revision.

> Comments relating to feedback from others:
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
>=20
> The ADs have received a question from Joseph Reddy, who was asking if =
the set of addresses in the SRH should also include the source address =
of the node inserting the SRH. His justification for this was the need =
to be able to send an ICMP error back to this node. Do we have an =
answer?

When using tunneling, the ICMP error should go back to the source of the =
outer IPv6 header.

> In April, Thomas Narten made some comments on the list and I didn't =
think that the discussion finished with any conclusion. Are his concerns =
(e.g., from his e-mail on April 29th) valid or not valid? I would like =
the working group to conclude this issue one way or the other. I refer =
to his comments regarding the feasibility of the loop check in =
particular. His e-mail is at =
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ipv6/current/msg13887.html FWIW I =
agree with Thomas' editorial comment on Section 2 clarity. That should =
be easy to fix.


My personal belief is that LLN devices will generally have more =
computation capability relative to communication capability, so I'm not =
terribly concerned with the processing overhead.  That said, I'm not a =
fan of the loop check and would prefer less complexity.  We only =
required such checks to deal with security concerns that have been =
raised in the past with RH0.  If others feel that the checks are =
unnecessary or have alternative suggestions, I'm more than happy to make =
the changes.

Thanks.

--
Jonathan Hui


From jonhui@cisco.com  Fri Jul 29 14:55:45 2011
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Subject: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option
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Hi Jari,

Again, thanks for your review and apologize for the delay.  See my =
responses below:

On Jun 17, 2011, at 2:22 PM, Jari Arkko wrote:

> I have reviewed this draft. Some of the issues from the other draft =
are visible in this one as well, and I saw two additional substantive =
issues:
>=20
> - we need to specify the behavior with regards to the data in this =
option better
> - the text about processing packets in RPL border routers should be =
written in a different manner
>=20
> Both of these should be easily addressed, however. Please revise the =
draft and we can send the draft to IETF Last Call.
>=20
> Here are my comments in more detail:
>=20
>> Datagrams being forwarded within a RPL domain MUST include a RPL
>> Option.  For datagrams sourced within a RPL domain, the RPL Option
>> MAY be included in the datagram itself.
>=20
> I'm not sure I understand the difference or its motivation. Do you =
really mean that a packet might not have the option until it hits the =
first router? Or are you just talking about something that happens =
internally on a host, but on the wire all packets would still have the =
option? Also, since the tunnel (or something else) is used to include =
the option for datagrams sourced outside the RPL domain, wouldn't it be =
easier to just say this:
>=20
> "Datagrams sent between nodes within an RPL domain MUST include an RPL =
Option."

Agree.

>>  For datagrams sourced
>>   outside a RPL domain, IPv6-in-IPv6 tunneling, as specified in
>>   [RFC2473 <http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2473>] SHOULD be used to =
include a RPL Option.
>=20
> This text should be aligned with whatever conclusion we will have for =
the issue that I raised with the other document.

Agree.  See my response to your other review.

>> To help avoid IP-layer fragmentation, the RPL Option has a maximum
>> size of RPL_OPTION_MAX_SIZE octets and links within a RPL domain
>> SHOULD have a MTU of at least 1280 + 44 (outer IP header, Hop-by-Hop
>> Option header, Option header) + RPL_OPTION_MAX_SIZE + (additional
>> extension headers or options needed within RPL domain).
>> =20
>=20
> There's a same MTU issue here as in the other document.

Agree.  See my response to your other review.

>> The action taken by using the RPL Option and the potential set of
>> sub-TLVs carried within the RPL Option MUST be specified by the RFC
>> of the protocol that use that option.  No TLVs are defined in this
>> document.
>> =20
>=20
> I think you should define the behavior when a node encounters a =
sub-TLV that it does not recognize. E.g., ignore and move on to the next =
sub-TLV. Or do you want a stricter policy? In any case, for future =
extensions it will be necessary to know how they are treated by legacy =
RPL nodes.

Yes, we need to define the behavior.  I'm comfortable with specifying an =
skip-over-and-continue policy for unknown sub-TLVs.

>> In very specific cases, IPv6-in-IPv6 tunneling may be undesirable due
>> to the added cost and complexity required to process and carry a
>> datagram with two IPv6 headers.  [I-D.hui-6man-rpl-headers =
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.hui-6man=
-rpl-headers>] describes
>> how to avoid using IPv6-in-IPv6 tunneling in such specific cases and
>> the risks involved.
>> =20
>=20
> Again, the same comments as in the other draft. Please delete this =
paragraph.

Agree.

>> For datagrams exiting the RPL domain, RPL Border Routers MUST remove
>> the RPL Option from the datagram.  If the RPL Option was included
>> using tunneled mode and the RPL Border Router serves as the tunnel
>> end-point, removing the outer IPv6 header serves to remove the RPL
>> Option as well.  Otherwise, the RPL Border Router assumes that the
>> RPL Option was included using transport mode and MUST remove the RPL
>> Option from the IPv6 Hop-by-Hop Option header.
>> =20
>=20
> The part about removing the RPL option even in a non-tunneled case =
relates to the issue of supporting that particular mode of operation.
>=20
> But in addition, I wonder if you should write the above text not in =
terms of packet modification operations but rather in terms of =
forwarding decision outcomes. Like this, for instance:
>=20
> "For datagrams destined to the RPL Border Router the router processes =
the packet in the usual way. For instance, if the RPL Option was =
included using tunneled mode and the RPL Border Router serves as the =
tunnel end-point, the router removes the outer IPv6 header, at the same =
removing the RPL Option as well. Datagrams destined elsewhere within the =
same RPL domain are forwarded to the right interface. Datagrams destined =
outside the RPL domain are dropped."

The intent was to allow operation where a device within the RPL domain =
could source a packet destined outside the RPL domain and not use =
tunneling.  In this case, we would like to simply remove the option at =
the border router rather than drop the packet.  Do you see cases where =
removing the option is unacceptable?

>> 6. Usage of the RPL Option
>>=20
>>   The RPL Option is only for use within a RPL domain.  RPL routers =
MUST
>>   process and include the RPL Option when forwarding datagrams to =
other
>>   nodes within the RPL domain.  Routers on the edge of a RPL domain
>>   MUST remove the RPL Option when forwarding datagrams to nodes =
outside
>>   the RPL domain.
>=20
> What is it that this section says that is not already covered by =
sections 2 and 5:
>=20
> Sect 2: Datagrams being forwarded within a RPL domain MUST include a =
RPL Option.
>=20
> Sect 5: ... serves as the tunnel end-point, removing the outer IPv6 =
header serves to remove the RPL Option as well.  Otherwise, the RPL =
Border Router assumes that the RPL Option was included using transport =
mode and MUST remove the RPL Option from the IPv6 Hop-by-Hop Option =
header.

Agree.  Will remove the redundant text.

>> This option may be used to mount several potential attacks since
>> routers may be flooded by bogus datagram containing the RPL option.
>> It is thus RECOMMENDED for routers to implement a rate limiter for
>>   datagrams using the RPL Option.
>=20
> Please open this up a bit. What specific danger does flooding by bogus =
datagrams and RPL options cause? What would be the default settings for =
the rate limiter?

The option contains information that can affect the operation of RPL.  =
For example, an inconsistent Rank value can cause a RPL router to reset =
its trickle timer.

After some careful thought, I'm not sure specifying a default setting =
for a rate limiter is the best approach.  Determining what is acceptable =
vs. unacceptable can vary greatly between different deployments and =
environments.  But rather than rate limiting, how about the following:

  This option may be used to mount several potential attacks since
  routers may be flooded by bogus datagrams containing the RPL
  option.  In particular, an inconsistent Rank value can cause a RPL
  router to reset its DIO Trickle timer.  Thus, it is RECOMMENDED
  that a RPL router monitor triggers caused by receiving a RPL
  option and log conditions when the average rate is higher than
  expected.

>>   Opt Data Len:  8-bit field indicating the length of the option, in
>>         octets, excluding the Option Type and Opt Data Len fields.
>>=20
>>   Down 'O':  1-bit flag as defined in Section 11 of
>>         [I-D.ietf-roll-rpl =
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.ietf-rol=
l-rpl>].
>>=20
>>   Rank-Error 'R':  1-bit flag as defined in Section 11 of
>>         [I-D.ietf-roll-rpl =
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.ietf-rol=
l-rpl>].
>>=20
>>   Forwarding-Error 'F':  1-bit flag as defined in Section 11 of
>>         [I-D.ietf-roll-rpl =
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.ietf-rol=
l-rpl>].
>>=20
>>   RPLInstanceID:  8-bit field as defined in Section 11 of
>>         [I-D.ietf-roll-rpl =
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.ietf-rol=
l-rpl>].
>>=20
>>   SenderRank:  16-bit field as defined in Section 11 of
>>         [I-D.ietf-roll-rpl =
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-rpl-option-03#ref-I-D.ietf-rol=
l-rpl>].
>>=20
>>   Values within the RPL Option are expected to change en-route.=20
>=20
> This specification needs to describe what the behavior of a router is =
with the content of the option. I think this is easy, you should just =
add to the end: "The processing shall follow the rules described in =
Section 11.2 of [roll-rpl].

Agree.

> As an aside, the entire Section 11 is marked in roll-rpl as =
non-normative. I don't think that's actually right as far as 11.2 goes, =
because it contains tons of MUSTs and SHOULDs. Perhaps you want to fix =
that in AUTH48...

Right.

Thanks.

--
Jonathan Hui


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Subject: RE: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5952 (2872)
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Hi Richard,

>Now the algorithm cannot actually rely solely on the prefix, 
> but in fact must also examine the embedded address to make sure
> it is a valid IPv4 unicast address. 

Exactly.

>It would be much easier to code the algorithm to check only for
> the prefixes "::" and "::ffff" (from RFC-4291), and then specifically
> make an exception for the well-known IPv6 "::" (unknown) and "::1"
> (loopback) addresses. This is what I have done now in my code,
> which leaves the above mentioned four addresses (supposedly) incorrectly
> formatted. 

Your code is correct.
Moreover, except merely loopback address from the embedded address.
Many codes(like a inet_ntop) are same behavior, or do nothing.

But, I've never heard any trouble about "loopback" and "unspecified".
Thus, it is reasonable code.

Regards,
Masanobu


>I understand your point, which is that regardless of the prefix, if the embedded address is not a globally unique IPv4 address, then the special formatting does not apply. 
>
>I still think it is not clear that this is the intended interpretation of RFC-5952 given the phrase "solely... through the use of a well-known prefix". Now the algorithm cannot actually rely solely on the prefix, but in fact must also examine the embedded address to make sure it is a valid IPv4 unicast address. 
>
>This interpretation presents other irritations when coding RFC-5952's recommendations as an algorithm because the algorithm must make a special case for at least the following other addresses beyond :: and ::1.
>
>  ::ffff:ffff      (not ::255.255.255.255)
>  ::ffff:0:0       (not ::ffff:0.0.0.0)
>  ::ffff:0:1       (not ::ffff:0.0.0.1)
>  ::ffff:ffff:ffff (not ::ffff:255.255.255.255)
>
>It would be much easier to code the algorithm to check only for the prefixes "::" and "::ffff" (from RFC-4291), and then specifically make an exception for the well-known IPv6 "::" (unknown) and "::1" (loopback) addresses. This is what I have done now in my code, which leaves the above mentioned four addresses (supposedly) incorrectly formatted. 
>
>Thanks for your prompt replies, and I will now leave you alone :-)
>
>     --Rich
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Masanobu Kawashima [mailto:kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com] 
>Sent: Friday, July 29, 2011 11:42 AM
>To: Rich Smith (rjsmith2)
>Cc: ipv6@ietf.org
>Subject: RE: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5952 (2872)
>
>
>Hi Richard,
>
>Thank you for your reply.
>
>>These sections clearly indicate that addresses with the first 96 bits
>> all-zero have embedded IPv4 addresses. 
>
>I don't think so.
>You have missed note below in Section 2.5.5.1.
>
>===================================================================
>Note: The IPv4 address used in the "IPv4-Compatible IPv6 address"
>must be a globally-unique IPv4 unicast address.
>===================================================================
>
>::(Unspecified Address) and ::1(Loopback Address) are not
> globally-unique IPv4 unicast address.
>We should not use the 96-bit all-zeros prefix to identify
> embedded IPv4 addresses.
>We have to check last 32 bits of the address.
>Thus, we don't need any addition. It is not an error.
>
>
>>By the way, I want to thank you for authoring this RFC, since it solves
>> a major problem we have, which is searching for and matching IPv6 addresses
>> that are represented as text. 
>
>Thank you for your feedback.
>I'm so glad to hear that. :-)
>
>Regards,
>Masanobu
>
>
>>RFC-4291 (IP Version 6 Addressing Architecture), which RFC-5952 references, has a section 2.5.5 called "IPv6 Addresses with Embedded IPv4 Addresses". Presumably, this is what RFC-5952 is referring to. Section 2.5.5 two subsections. The first subsection 2.5.5.1 is called "IPv4-Compatible IPv6 Address". Let me copy it here:
>>
>>2.5.5.1.  IPv4-Compatible IPv6 Address
>>
>>   The "IPv4-Compatible IPv6 address" was defined to assist in the IPv6
>>   transition.  The format of the "IPv4-Compatible IPv6 address" is as
>>   follows:
>>
>>   |                80 bits               | 16 |      32 bits        |
>>   +--------------------------------------+--------------------------+
>>   |0000..............................0000|0000|    IPv4 address     |
>>   +--------------------------------------+----+---------------------+
>>
>>   Note: The IPv4 address used in the "IPv4-Compatible IPv6 address"
>>   must be a globally-unique IPv4 unicast address.
>>
>>   The "IPv4-Compatible IPv6 address" is now deprecated because the
>>   current IPv6 transition mechanisms no longer use these addresses.
>>   New or updated implementations are not required to support this
>>   address type.
>>
>>In addition, in RFC-4291 has a section 2.2 called "Text Representation of Addresses", which has the following paragraph regarding mixed IPv6 / IPv4 addresses:
>>
>>   3. An alternative form that is sometimes more convenient when dealing
>>      with a mixed environment of IPv4 and IPv6 nodes is
>>      x:x:x:x:x:x:d.d.d.d, where the 'x's are the hexadecimal values of
>>      the six high-order 16-bit pieces of the address, and the 'd's are
>>      the decimal values of the four low-order 8-bit pieces of the
>>      address (standard IPv4 representation).  Examples:
>>
>>         0:0:0:0:0:0:13.1.68.3
>>
>>         0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:129.144.52.38
>>
>>      or in compressed form:
>>
>>         ::13.1.68.3
>>
>>         ::FFFF:129.144.52.38
>>
>>These sections clearly indicate that addresses with the first 96 bits all-zero have embedded IPv4 addresses. It does say that this prefix is deprecated, but deprecated or not, RFC-4291 clearly defines 96 bits of zero to contain an embedded IPv4 address, and then shows it in at least two examples.
>>
>>Thus my confusion from this paragraph in RFC-5952, section 5:
>>
>>5.  Text Representation of Special Addresses
>>
>>   Addresses such as IPv4-Mapped IPv6 addresses, ISATAP [RFC5214], and
>>   IPv4-translatable addresses [ADDR-FORMAT] have IPv4 addresses
>>   embedded in the low-order 32 bits of the address.  These addresses
>>   have a special representation that may mix hexadecimal and dot
>>   decimal notations.  The decimal notation may be used only for the
>>   last 32 bits of the address.  For these addresses, mixed notation is
>>   RECOMMENDED if the following condition is met: the address can be
>>   distinguished as having IPv4 addresses embedded in the lower 32 bits
>>   solely from the address field through the use of a well-known prefix.
>>   Such prefixes are defined in [RFC4291] and [RFC2765] at the time of
>>   this writing.  If it is known by some external method that a given
>>   prefix is used to embed IPv4, it MAY be represented as mixed
>>   notation.  Tools that provide options to specify prefixes that are
>>   (or are not) to be represented as mixed notation may be useful.
>>
>>specifically "solely... through the use of a well-known prefix" then citing RFC-4291.
>>
>>RFC-4291 does define 96 bits of zero as a well-known IPv4 address prefix, as I've pasted above. 
>>
>>If it was your intention that readers of RFC-5952 IGNORE section 2.5.5.1 of RFC-4291, then YOU MUST MAKE THAT CLEAR because NOTHING in RFC-5952 says to do that. In fact, just the opposite is at least implied, and implied because sections 2.2 and 2.5.5.1 clearly show 96-bit all-zeros prefix indicate an embedded IPv4 address, and RFC-5952 references this standard with no additional clarification other than to go solely by the address prefix. 
>>
>>So, I want it made clear EITHER: a) Ignore section 2.5.5.1 of RFC-4291, which is to say that the 96-bit all-zero prefix is NOT intended to indicate an embedded IPv4 address, or b) make it clear that at least :: and ::1 are not to be treated as embedded IPv4 addresses because they are, in fact, well-known IPv6 addresses. The latter was my suggestion from the original errata. 
>>
>>If you require further clarification, then let me know. I don't know if I can make it any clearer. I've pasted the relevant sections of RFC-5952 and RFC-4291. But, if this is not enough, then I can try to provide more information if you need it. 
>>
>>By the way, I want to thank you for authoring this RFC, since it solves a major problem we have, which is searching for and matching IPv6 addresses that are represented as text. 
>>
>>Thanks. 
>>
>>     --Rich
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Masanobu Kawashima [mailto:kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com] 
>>Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 5:04 PM
>>To: Rich Smith (rjsmith2); ipv6@ietf.org
>>Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5952 (2872)
>>
>>
>>Hi Richard,
>>
>>Thank you for your report.
>>I think this is better discussed in 6man.
>>
>>But I think it is not an error.
>>Section 5 describes "Embedded IPv4 Addresses" for mixed notation.
>>IPv6 unspecified address and IPv6 loopback address are out of scope.
>>
>>Moreover, the 80-bit all-zeros prefix is not "IPv4-compatible IPv6 address".
>>We should not use the 80-bit all-zeros prefix to identify embedded IPv4 addresses.
>>
>>I didn't understand what you mean.
>>Please describe more detail.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Masanobu
>>
>>
>>>
>>>The following errata report has been submitted for RFC5952,
>>>"A Recommendation for IPv6 Address Text Representation".
>>>
>>>--------------------------------------
>>>You may review the report below and at:
>>>http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=5952&eid=2872
>>>
>>>--------------------------------------
>>>Type: Technical
>>>Reported by: Richard J. Smith <rjsmith2@cisco.com>
>>>
>>>Section: 5
>>>
>>>Original Text
>>>-------------
>>>For these addresses, mixed notation is RECOMMENDED if the following condition is met: the address can be distinguished as having IPv4 addresses embedded in the lower 32 bits solely from the address field through the use of a well-known prefix.
>>>
>>>
>>>Corrected Text
>>>--------------
>>>For these addresses, mixed notation is RECOMMENDED if the following conditions are met: the address can be distinguished as having IPv4 addresses embedded in the lower 32 bits solely from the address field through the use of a well-known prefix, and the entire address is not either the unspecified IPv6 address "::" or the loopback IPv6 address "::1".
>>>
>>>
>>>Notes
>>>-----
>>>RFC-4291 defines the 80-bit all-zeros prefix as indicating an "IPv4-compatible IPv6 address". Without further clarification in section 5 of RFC-5952, the recommended formatting of the IPv6 unspecified address would be "::0.0.0.0", and the recommended formatting of the IPv6 loopback address would be "::0.0.0.1". Neither of these recommended representations is desirable.
>>>
>>>Instructions:
>>>-------------
>>>This errata is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
>>>use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
>>>rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG)
>>>can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. 
>>>
>>>--------------------------------------
>>>RFC5952 (draft-ietf-6man-text-addr-representation-07)
>>>--------------------------------------
>>>Title               : A Recommendation for IPv6 Address Text Representation
>>>Publication Date    : August 2010
>>>Author(s)           : S. Kawamura, M. Kawashima
>>>Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
>>>Source              : IPv6 Maintenance
>>>Area                : Internet
>>>Stream              : IETF
>>>Verifying Party     : IESG
>>
>>¢(._.)
>>========================================
>> NEC AccessTechnica, Ltd.               
>> Product Development Department         
>> Masanobu Kawashima                     
>> kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com               
>> http://www.necat.co.jp/                
>>========================================
>>
>
>¢(._.)
>========================================
> NEC AccessTechnica, Ltd.               
> Product Development Department         
> Masanobu Kawashima                     
> kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com               
> http://www.necat.co.jp/                
>========================================
>

¢(._.)
========================================
 NEC AccessTechnica, Ltd.               
 Product Development Department         
 Masanobu Kawashima                     
 kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com               
 http://www.necat.co.jp/                
========================================


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Subject: RE: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5952 (2872)
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From: "Rich Smith (rjsmith2)" <rjsmith2@cisco.com>
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RFC-4291 (IP Version 6 Addressing Architecture), which RFC-5952 references, has a section 2.5.5 called "IPv6 Addresses with Embedded IPv4 Addresses". Presumably, this is what RFC-5952 is referring to. Section 2.5.5 two subsections. The first subsection 2.5.5.1 is called "IPv4-Compatible IPv6 Address". Let me copy it here:

2.5.5.1.  IPv4-Compatible IPv6 Address

   The "IPv4-Compatible IPv6 address" was defined to assist in the IPv6
   transition.  The format of the "IPv4-Compatible IPv6 address" is as
   follows:

   |                80 bits               | 16 |      32 bits        |
   +--------------------------------------+--------------------------+
   |0000..............................0000|0000|    IPv4 address     |
   +--------------------------------------+----+---------------------+

   Note: The IPv4 address used in the "IPv4-Compatible IPv6 address"
   must be a globally-unique IPv4 unicast address.

   The "IPv4-Compatible IPv6 address" is now deprecated because the
   current IPv6 transition mechanisms no longer use these addresses.
   New or updated implementations are not required to support this
   address type.

In addition, in RFC-4291 has a section 2.2 called "Text Representation of Addresses", which has the following paragraph regarding mixed IPv6 / IPv4 addresses:

   3. An alternative form that is sometimes more convenient when dealing
      with a mixed environment of IPv4 and IPv6 nodes is
      x:x:x:x:x:x:d.d.d.d, where the 'x's are the hexadecimal values of
      the six high-order 16-bit pieces of the address, and the 'd's are
      the decimal values of the four low-order 8-bit pieces of the
      address (standard IPv4 representation).  Examples:

         0:0:0:0:0:0:13.1.68.3

         0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:129.144.52.38

      or in compressed form:

         ::13.1.68.3

         ::FFFF:129.144.52.38

These sections clearly indicate that addresses with the first 96 bits all-zero have embedded IPv4 addresses. It does say that this prefix is deprecated, but deprecated or not, RFC-4291 clearly defines 96 bits of zero to contain an embedded IPv4 address, and then shows it in at least two examples.

Thus my confusion from this paragraph in RFC-5952, section 5:

5.  Text Representation of Special Addresses

   Addresses such as IPv4-Mapped IPv6 addresses, ISATAP [RFC5214], and
   IPv4-translatable addresses [ADDR-FORMAT] have IPv4 addresses
   embedded in the low-order 32 bits of the address.  These addresses
   have a special representation that may mix hexadecimal and dot
   decimal notations.  The decimal notation may be used only for the
   last 32 bits of the address.  For these addresses, mixed notation is
   RECOMMENDED if the following condition is met: the address can be
   distinguished as having IPv4 addresses embedded in the lower 32 bits
   solely from the address field through the use of a well-known prefix.
   Such prefixes are defined in [RFC4291] and [RFC2765] at the time of
   this writing.  If it is known by some external method that a given
   prefix is used to embed IPv4, it MAY be represented as mixed
   notation.  Tools that provide options to specify prefixes that are
   (or are not) to be represented as mixed notation may be useful.

specifically "solely... through the use of a well-known prefix" then citing RFC-4291.

RFC-4291 does define 96 bits of zero as a well-known IPv4 address prefix, as I've pasted above. 

If it was your intention that readers of RFC-5952 IGNORE section 2.5.5.1 of RFC-4291, then YOU MUST MAKE THAT CLEAR because NOTHING in RFC-5952 says to do that. In fact, just the opposite is at least implied, and implied because sections 2.2 and 2.5.5.1 clearly show 96-bit all-zeros prefix indicate an embedded IPv4 address, and RFC-5952 references this standard with no additional clarification other than to go solely by the address prefix. 

So, I want it made clear EITHER: a) Ignore section 2.5.5.1 of RFC-4291, which is to say that the 96-bit all-zero prefix is NOT intended to indicate an embedded IPv4 address, or b) make it clear that at least :: and ::1 are not to be treated as embedded IPv4 addresses because they are, in fact, well-known IPv6 addresses. The latter was my suggestion from the original errata. 

If you require further clarification, then let me know. I don't know if I can make it any clearer. I've pasted the relevant sections of RFC-5952 and RFC-4291. But, if this is not enough, then I can try to provide more information if you need it. 

By the way, I want to thank you for authoring this RFC, since it solves a major problem we have, which is searching for and matching IPv6 addresses that are represented as text. 

Thanks. 

     --Rich


-----Original Message-----
From: Masanobu Kawashima [mailto:kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com] 
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 5:04 PM
To: Rich Smith (rjsmith2); ipv6@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5952 (2872)


Hi Richard,

Thank you for your report.
I think this is better discussed in 6man.

But I think it is not an error.
Section 5 describes "Embedded IPv4 Addresses" for mixed notation.
IPv6 unspecified address and IPv6 loopback address are out of scope.

Moreover, the 80-bit all-zeros prefix is not "IPv4-compatible IPv6 address".
We should not use the 80-bit all-zeros prefix to identify embedded IPv4 addresses.

I didn't understand what you mean.
Please describe more detail.

Regards,
Masanobu


>
>The following errata report has been submitted for RFC5952,
>"A Recommendation for IPv6 Address Text Representation".
>
>--------------------------------------
>You may review the report below and at:
>http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=5952&eid=2872
>
>--------------------------------------
>Type: Technical
>Reported by: Richard J. Smith <rjsmith2@cisco.com>
>
>Section: 5
>
>Original Text
>-------------
>For these addresses, mixed notation is RECOMMENDED if the following condition is met: the address can be distinguished as having IPv4 addresses embedded in the lower 32 bits solely from the address field through the use of a well-known prefix.
>
>
>Corrected Text
>--------------
>For these addresses, mixed notation is RECOMMENDED if the following conditions are met: the address can be distinguished as having IPv4 addresses embedded in the lower 32 bits solely from the address field through the use of a well-known prefix, and the entire address is not either the unspecified IPv6 address "::" or the loopback IPv6 address "::1".
>
>
>Notes
>-----
>RFC-4291 defines the 80-bit all-zeros prefix as indicating an "IPv4-compatible IPv6 address". Without further clarification in section 5 of RFC-5952, the recommended formatting of the IPv6 unspecified address would be "::0.0.0.0", and the recommended formatting of the IPv6 loopback address would be "::0.0.0.1". Neither of these recommended representations is desirable.
>
>Instructions:
>-------------
>This errata is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
>use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
>rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG)
>can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. 
>
>--------------------------------------
>RFC5952 (draft-ietf-6man-text-addr-representation-07)
>--------------------------------------
>Title               : A Recommendation for IPv6 Address Text Representation
>Publication Date    : August 2010
>Author(s)           : S. Kawamura, M. Kawashima
>Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
>Source              : IPv6 Maintenance
>Area                : Internet
>Stream              : IETF
>Verifying Party     : IESG

¢(._.)
========================================
 NEC AccessTechnica, Ltd.               
 Product Development Department         
 Masanobu Kawashima                     
 kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com               
 http://www.necat.co.jp/                
========================================


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Subject: RE: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5952 (2872)
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2011 13:05:02 -0700
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From: "Rich Smith (rjsmith2)" <rjsmith2@cisco.com>
To: "Masanobu Kawashima" <kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com>
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I understand your point, which is that regardless of the prefix, if the embedded address is not a globally unique IPv4 address, then the special formatting does not apply. 

I still think it is not clear that this is the intended interpretation of RFC-5952 given the phrase "solely... through the use of a well-known prefix". Now the algorithm cannot actually rely solely on the prefix, but in fact must also examine the embedded address to make sure it is a valid IPv4 unicast address. 

This interpretation presents other irritations when coding RFC-5952's recommendations as an algorithm because the algorithm must make a special case for at least the following other addresses beyond :: and ::1.

  ::ffff:ffff      (not ::255.255.255.255)
  ::ffff:0:0       (not ::ffff:0.0.0.0)
  ::ffff:0:1       (not ::ffff:0.0.0.1)
  ::ffff:ffff:ffff (not ::ffff:255.255.255.255)

It would be much easier to code the algorithm to check only for the prefixes "::" and "::ffff" (from RFC-4291), and then specifically make an exception for the well-known IPv6 "::" (unknown) and "::1" (loopback) addresses. This is what I have done now in my code, which leaves the above mentioned four addresses (supposedly) incorrectly formatted. 

Thanks for your prompt replies, and I will now leave you alone :-)

     --Rich


-----Original Message-----
From: Masanobu Kawashima [mailto:kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com] 
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2011 11:42 AM
To: Rich Smith (rjsmith2)
Cc: ipv6@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5952 (2872)


Hi Richard,

Thank you for your reply.

>These sections clearly indicate that addresses with the first 96 bits
> all-zero have embedded IPv4 addresses. 

I don't think so.
You have missed note below in Section 2.5.5.1.

===================================================================
Note: The IPv4 address used in the "IPv4-Compatible IPv6 address"
must be a globally-unique IPv4 unicast address.
===================================================================

::(Unspecified Address) and ::1(Loopback Address) are not
 globally-unique IPv4 unicast address.
We should not use the 96-bit all-zeros prefix to identify
 embedded IPv4 addresses.
We have to check last 32 bits of the address.
Thus, we don't need any addition. It is not an error.


>By the way, I want to thank you for authoring this RFC, since it solves
> a major problem we have, which is searching for and matching IPv6 addresses
> that are represented as text. 

Thank you for your feedback.
I'm so glad to hear that. :-)

Regards,
Masanobu


>RFC-4291 (IP Version 6 Addressing Architecture), which RFC-5952 references, has a section 2.5.5 called "IPv6 Addresses with Embedded IPv4 Addresses". Presumably, this is what RFC-5952 is referring to. Section 2.5.5 two subsections. The first subsection 2.5.5.1 is called "IPv4-Compatible IPv6 Address". Let me copy it here:
>
>2.5.5.1.  IPv4-Compatible IPv6 Address
>
>   The "IPv4-Compatible IPv6 address" was defined to assist in the IPv6
>   transition.  The format of the "IPv4-Compatible IPv6 address" is as
>   follows:
>
>   |                80 bits               | 16 |      32 bits        |
>   +--------------------------------------+--------------------------+
>   |0000..............................0000|0000|    IPv4 address     |
>   +--------------------------------------+----+---------------------+
>
>   Note: The IPv4 address used in the "IPv4-Compatible IPv6 address"
>   must be a globally-unique IPv4 unicast address.
>
>   The "IPv4-Compatible IPv6 address" is now deprecated because the
>   current IPv6 transition mechanisms no longer use these addresses.
>   New or updated implementations are not required to support this
>   address type.
>
>In addition, in RFC-4291 has a section 2.2 called "Text Representation of Addresses", which has the following paragraph regarding mixed IPv6 / IPv4 addresses:
>
>   3. An alternative form that is sometimes more convenient when dealing
>      with a mixed environment of IPv4 and IPv6 nodes is
>      x:x:x:x:x:x:d.d.d.d, where the 'x's are the hexadecimal values of
>      the six high-order 16-bit pieces of the address, and the 'd's are
>      the decimal values of the four low-order 8-bit pieces of the
>      address (standard IPv4 representation).  Examples:
>
>         0:0:0:0:0:0:13.1.68.3
>
>         0:0:0:0:0:FFFF:129.144.52.38
>
>      or in compressed form:
>
>         ::13.1.68.3
>
>         ::FFFF:129.144.52.38
>
>These sections clearly indicate that addresses with the first 96 bits all-zero have embedded IPv4 addresses. It does say that this prefix is deprecated, but deprecated or not, RFC-4291 clearly defines 96 bits of zero to contain an embedded IPv4 address, and then shows it in at least two examples.
>
>Thus my confusion from this paragraph in RFC-5952, section 5:
>
>5.  Text Representation of Special Addresses
>
>   Addresses such as IPv4-Mapped IPv6 addresses, ISATAP [RFC5214], and
>   IPv4-translatable addresses [ADDR-FORMAT] have IPv4 addresses
>   embedded in the low-order 32 bits of the address.  These addresses
>   have a special representation that may mix hexadecimal and dot
>   decimal notations.  The decimal notation may be used only for the
>   last 32 bits of the address.  For these addresses, mixed notation is
>   RECOMMENDED if the following condition is met: the address can be
>   distinguished as having IPv4 addresses embedded in the lower 32 bits
>   solely from the address field through the use of a well-known prefix.
>   Such prefixes are defined in [RFC4291] and [RFC2765] at the time of
>   this writing.  If it is known by some external method that a given
>   prefix is used to embed IPv4, it MAY be represented as mixed
>   notation.  Tools that provide options to specify prefixes that are
>   (or are not) to be represented as mixed notation may be useful.
>
>specifically "solely... through the use of a well-known prefix" then citing RFC-4291.
>
>RFC-4291 does define 96 bits of zero as a well-known IPv4 address prefix, as I've pasted above. 
>
>If it was your intention that readers of RFC-5952 IGNORE section 2.5.5.1 of RFC-4291, then YOU MUST MAKE THAT CLEAR because NOTHING in RFC-5952 says to do that. In fact, just the opposite is at least implied, and implied because sections 2.2 and 2.5.5.1 clearly show 96-bit all-zeros prefix indicate an embedded IPv4 address, and RFC-5952 references this standard with no additional clarification other than to go solely by the address prefix. 
>
>So, I want it made clear EITHER: a) Ignore section 2.5.5.1 of RFC-4291, which is to say that the 96-bit all-zero prefix is NOT intended to indicate an embedded IPv4 address, or b) make it clear that at least :: and ::1 are not to be treated as embedded IPv4 addresses because they are, in fact, well-known IPv6 addresses. The latter was my suggestion from the original errata. 
>
>If you require further clarification, then let me know. I don't know if I can make it any clearer. I've pasted the relevant sections of RFC-5952 and RFC-4291. But, if this is not enough, then I can try to provide more information if you need it. 
>
>By the way, I want to thank you for authoring this RFC, since it solves a major problem we have, which is searching for and matching IPv6 addresses that are represented as text. 
>
>Thanks. 
>
>     --Rich
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Masanobu Kawashima [mailto:kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com] 
>Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 5:04 PM
>To: Rich Smith (rjsmith2); ipv6@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC5952 (2872)
>
>
>Hi Richard,
>
>Thank you for your report.
>I think this is better discussed in 6man.
>
>But I think it is not an error.
>Section 5 describes "Embedded IPv4 Addresses" for mixed notation.
>IPv6 unspecified address and IPv6 loopback address are out of scope.
>
>Moreover, the 80-bit all-zeros prefix is not "IPv4-compatible IPv6 address".
>We should not use the 80-bit all-zeros prefix to identify embedded IPv4 addresses.
>
>I didn't understand what you mean.
>Please describe more detail.
>
>Regards,
>Masanobu
>
>
>>
>>The following errata report has been submitted for RFC5952,
>>"A Recommendation for IPv6 Address Text Representation".
>>
>>--------------------------------------
>>You may review the report below and at:
>>http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=5952&eid=2872
>>
>>--------------------------------------
>>Type: Technical
>>Reported by: Richard J. Smith <rjsmith2@cisco.com>
>>
>>Section: 5
>>
>>Original Text
>>-------------
>>For these addresses, mixed notation is RECOMMENDED if the following condition is met: the address can be distinguished as having IPv4 addresses embedded in the lower 32 bits solely from the address field through the use of a well-known prefix.
>>
>>
>>Corrected Text
>>--------------
>>For these addresses, mixed notation is RECOMMENDED if the following conditions are met: the address can be distinguished as having IPv4 addresses embedded in the lower 32 bits solely from the address field through the use of a well-known prefix, and the entire address is not either the unspecified IPv6 address "::" or the loopback IPv6 address "::1".
>>
>>
>>Notes
>>-----
>>RFC-4291 defines the 80-bit all-zeros prefix as indicating an "IPv4-compatible IPv6 address". Without further clarification in section 5 of RFC-5952, the recommended formatting of the IPv6 unspecified address would be "::0.0.0.0", and the recommended formatting of the IPv6 loopback address would be "::0.0.0.1". Neither of these recommended representations is desirable.
>>
>>Instructions:
>>-------------
>>This errata is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
>>use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
>>rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG)
>>can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. 
>>
>>--------------------------------------
>>RFC5952 (draft-ietf-6man-text-addr-representation-07)
>>--------------------------------------
>>Title               : A Recommendation for IPv6 Address Text Representation
>>Publication Date    : August 2010
>>Author(s)           : S. Kawamura, M. Kawashima
>>Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
>>Source              : IPv6 Maintenance
>>Area                : Internet
>>Stream              : IETF
>>Verifying Party     : IESG
>
>¢(._.)
>========================================
> NEC AccessTechnica, Ltd.               
> Product Development Department         
> Masanobu Kawashima                     
> kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com               
> http://www.necat.co.jp/                
>========================================
>

¢(._.)
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 NEC AccessTechnica, Ltd.               
 Product Development Department         
 Masanobu Kawashima                     
 kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com               
 http://www.necat.co.jp/                
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